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Did anyone notice that they took down the "frequency of service" signs/posters that were in the W4 station? Now there is a map of the "D" where the sign used to be at the front of the Brooklyn bound express platform.
Wasn't that sign from like 1992? I doubt that it would be of little or any help to anyone not knowing the system.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
(Did anyone notice that they took down the "frequency of service" signs/posters that were in the W4 station?)
I've read a couple of news articles in which people cited the signs in complaining about the frequency of service in their neighborhood, vs. other neighborhoods. I like those signs -- they really show what the service is. It's like "truth in transit."
Greetings, all...
This past weekend two friends and I headed off to the Motor City for the 2nd annual Detroit Electronic Musical Festival. Here's a few random observations, in no particular order:
The music festival itself was incredible. For anybody who is interested in underground techno, house or other club music, this festival is a must-see event. Four stages in Hart Plaza, free admission, a very diverse crowd and very cool vibe throughout the weekend, lots of pot smoking, and some of the most cutting-edge music you'll ever hear.
Detroit the city is certainly an interesting study of urban sociology. Some neighborhoods literally look like war zones, with block after block of burned-out and/or half-collapsed buildings. The city put all its eggs in one basket with the automotive industry, and was left ruined when the basket broke. Right now the city seems to think its salvation will be in the form of touristy ballparks or huge casino hotels, but I think those are only superficial quick-fixes for some very deep-rooted problems.
Downtown Detroit has some very cool landmark-quality buildings worthy of New York or Chicago. Unfortunately, most of them seem to be abandoned and/or in a state of disrepair.
It's heartbreaking to see such a once-great city in utter ruin, but it's that same urban decay that has inspired most of the musicians and artists of the whole Detroit techno music scene. Detroit techno is quickly becoming to this generation what Motown music was to the previous generation in Detroit.
I vow never to complain about Chicago's potholes again after driving around in Detroit for a weekend.
Windsor, Ontario is a short bridge or tunnel ride away, and seems to be a very pleasant and walkable city. It really doesn't feel like a different country at all, but then, this is Canada we're talking about.
The Ambassador Bridge, a large suspension bridge connecting Detroit and Windsor, is interesting for two reasons: A) It is apparently still privately-owned, and B) Unlike the main span, the two side spans do not have suspender cables and are instead supported by conventional trusses below the road deck. This is this only suspension bridge I've ever heard of with that configuration.
Transit content I: South and west of downtown sits a magnificent ruin of an old train station, with a large abandoned hotel above. The property is fenced off, but one can tell that this was once an incredible train station. Anybody know its history?
Transit content II: Detoit has a real trolley line! I'm not sure where it starts or ends, but it went past the front door of our hotel. Single track operation, with at least two vintage open-air trolleys that I saw, catering to what seemed like a mainly tourist crowd. One trolley was even double-deck, with an open upper level. The track guage, based on my eyeball inspection, seemed much more narrow than standard.
Transit content III: Detroit's people-mover system proved to be more than just the expensive white elephant I was expecting. It circles the whole downtown area with a single track, one-way loop, with about a dozen or so stations. There seem to be two trains operating most of the time, which are automated. Stations seem very clean and well-maintained, and the trains sound a bit like the Jubilee Line trains in London, which leads me to suspect they may have AC traction. Fare is .50, paid with a token or exact change. But even with automation, the system is being watched. One guy tossed his trash onto the platform before boarding, and a voice came over the PA and announced the train wasn't moving an inch until he disposed of his trash properly. He sheepishly complied and we were on our way. The track is elevated on a very slender concrete box girder which gracefully winds its way around the streets.
Well, that's about it... I would have gotten some photos, but time and money were in short supply, and the weather was rather miserable all weekend. In fact, what was supposed to have been the grand finale at the main stage on Monday night was cancelled due to a sudden thunderstorm with frequent lightning and even some hail. Better luck next year, I guess. Weather and money problems aside, it was an excellent weekend.
-- David
Chicago, IL
!!!! $%%%^&^&**%&%**(!!!! @ WAIT A MINUTE !! All of that long and good post & no mention of ..............
THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER !!! how in the hell could you have missed that thing overhead !!???
it would have hit you in the face there !! & you still would have not mentioned it ??? COME ON MAN !!!
Wow, you ARE braindead.
Well,.... since you insist : ever heard of the old saying "" opinions are like assholes everybody has one ""
@ take heed to this & have a nice day !! ( oink )
...yea, and you should learn to read
Ok, your attic is completely empty. He only mentioned the People Mover on the bottom of his post.
HELLO......hello....hello
ECHO....echo....echo
ok i can take it from you & thank you again for the night i shot video of the M train at night with you as a motorman !!
I do need to clear out my attic @ overhaul an old reel-to-reel tape recorder i still own !! & some other audio equipment,
also if you want the night video i shot let me know i can send it to you ( thanks ) ....
...yea, and you should learn to read.
???.................!!!!!.........read what ?? yea ??
Unlike the main span, the two side spans do not have suspender cables and are instead supported by conventional trusses below the road deck. This is this only suspension bridge I've ever heard of with that configuration.
The Williamsburg Bridge is that way, although it has columns for the side spans.
Reguarding the ruins of Detroit, there is a gargantuan and awesome website devoted to photographs of its once beautiful buildings and civic infrastructure. It's called "The Fabulous Ruins of Detroit":
http://detroityes.com/home.htm
It's actually a very moving site.
Stuart
It's sad how a city could have once been so vital and then be destroyed by its own chief industry (the automobile).
What's this?!!?!? Careful, Pig, one might mistake this for "nostalgia!" :O)
In this "Fabulous Ruins of Detroit" site, there is indeed a section on the Michigan Central Railroad Station. David Cole asked about it in his original post.
BTW, I agree, for us history and necrology buffs, this is a fantastic site! Kevein Walsh should definitely check it out and kibhitz with the webmaster!
Downtown Detroit has some very cool landmark-quality buildings worthy of New York or Chicago. Unfortunately, most of them seem to be abandoned and/or in a state of disrepair.
It's said that all the abandoned buildings makes Detroit a popular destination for "urban explorer" types.
Transit content III: Detroit's people-mover system proved to be more than just the expensive white elephant I was expecting. It circles the whole downtown area with a single track, one-way loop, with about a dozen or so stations.
Does it seem to serve an actual transit purpose, or is it more of a tourist-type thing?
Does it seem to serve an actual transit purpose, or is it more of a tourist-type thing?
The weekend we were there, it seemed to be getting rather heavy usage as a way for people to get from their hotels to Hart Plaza and also to the casinos. However, most of this traffic seemed to be related to the festival. I have no idea how busy it is during a regular weekday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
> Right now the city seems to think its
> salvation will be in the form of touristy
> ballparks or huge casino hotels
I have two words for them: Atlantic & City.
-Dave
The trolley line is 900mm gauge. Some (all?) of their cars are formerly Lisbon.
An excellent report.
I am somewhat amazed that you found both the Detroit Peoplemover and the Detroit Citizen's Railway both in operation. The peoplemover was OOS last year due to part of the trackway being destroyed in the demolition of a building abutting the line. The DCR was shut down late in 1996 or 97 in a fiscal crisis and the last reports in the railfan press reported everything still shut down and equipment in dead storage as late as last year.
Detroit is so run down and in a constant fiscal crisis that it was used for the setting of the Robocop movies and TV series.
Story in Jersey Journal.
What the hell is a package store?
Package goods are those that are bought for consumption off the premises:that is, cans and bottles.
Usually the cans and bottles have alcoholic beverages in them.
Package store means.....Booze to go...How DO you spell Seacaucus?
Peace,
ANDEE
...How DO you spell Seacaucus?
I spell it Secaucus, but I experienced a couple typoz this morning.
…perhaps because you found the package store last night?
That'll do it! :)
It's a euphemism for a liquor store.
"Package store" (also known as a "packie") is a common New England expression for a small liquor store, where the beer/liquor is put in a brown paper sack for carrying out. I rarely heard the term used west of Connecticut or south of upstate NY.
"Package store" is common in South Jersey.
Transplanted New Englanders?
Sign seen today in Baltimore (Thames St at S. Broadway, Fells Point):
"The Admiral's Cup
Bar & Grill
We welcome the Water
Taxi riders
COME ON IN PACKAGE GOODS AVAILABLE"
There's one on route 46 westbound near Litle Falls, NJ. Tends to attract motorcycles. I was always mystified what "package goods" was, but from the seedy look of the store it obviously wasn't Twinkies.
do any have picture os septa lrv.
There are plenty of pictures of SEPTA LRVS RIGHT HERE on this site, you should look around.
Peace,
ANDEE
i was talking about other pictures.
btw:do any have spec.s on them
Find other pictures here.
Thanks for the plug, Bob...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have put up a modest K Car shrine
Here
yes nice web site i been they 2 weeks ago.
Try this site for all the facts & figures you could want Light Rail Central
Mr t__:^)
lightrail.com doesn't even have it though they do have some nice pictures. here are the numbers:
SEPTA Kawasaki LRV specificationsLRV S/ELRV D/E
Vehicle type:Single End MU LRVDouble End MU
LRV
Operates:Subway-Surface LinesMedia-Sharon
Hill Lines
Number of Vehicles:11229
Fleet Numbers:9000-9111100-128
Length:50'53'
Width:102"105"
Height (top of roof):10'10"10' 10"
Weight:57,882 lbs.60,043 lbs.
Seated Capacity:5150
Collection:Trolley Pole
(with provision
for pantograph)Pantograph
Axles/Motors/HP:4/4/1004/4/100
Acceleration:3 mph/s3 mph/s
Braking:
(normal service)3 mph/s3 mph/s
Maunufactured by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Japan, 1981
Final Assembly by Boeing-Vertol Company, Ridley Township Delaware County, PA
! compared this spec to the mfl cars spec they both have the
same pick up!
>>! compared this spec to the mfl cars spec they both have the same pick up!<<
Which cars? The M-4's or The Almond Joys? The K-Cars have Westinghouse 1460 motors which is really an updated version of the 1454A, both are 100hp, 600VDC, (the only differences are the bearings and the 1460 is set up for chopper controls).
Almond Joys, I'm pretty sure the M-4's have Adtranz propulsion
the m-4s.new model.
Regarding the Manhattan Bridge service flip - I haven't seen much news about this lately. Even the articles about the Grand St. controversy don't specifically mention when this is supposed to take place. When is the tentative date that this change is scheduled to happen?
Jim D.
It's tentative for the 3rd week in July, at this time.
Peace,
ANDEE
When I passed through the Canal Street Bridge Station last week, it looked very nice. It even smelled nicer :-) I'd be interested to hear what our resident tile experts (Wayne?) think about the renovation.
I was there a couple of weeks ago and was very impressed by the tiling, not just on the bridge line BMT station, but also on the tunnel line.
Do we have a resident Chinese expert who can tell us what the Characters on the tiles mean?
John.
The Chinese characters on tiles are pronounced "Hua Pu". Hua is the abbreviation of China, and Pu means town.
Chaohwa
Can you spell that out phonetically? I'd really appreciate it.
Hua sounds like WHAH; Pu sounds like POO. So you can pronounce Chinatown in Chinese as WHAH-POO.
Chaohwa
Oops, when I tried to type Pu in Chinese, I found that I made an error.
Here is the correction:
The Chinese characters on the tiles is Hua Bu, pronounced as WHAH-BOO. Hua is the abbreviation of China, and Bu means town.
As a Chinese like me, we call Chinatown in Chinese in three Chinese characters, which is pronounced as CHUNG-GUO-CHENG. Chungguo also means China. Cheng means city or town.
Chaohwa
Isn't the actually pronunciation a cross between a "b" and a "p"? Isn't the "k"/"g" a cross sound, also? I've seen attempts at English translations spelled with both "p" and "b" (Peking/Bejing) and "k" and "g" (Sun Sai Gai/Kai) as examples.
You are absolutely right. When I try to translate from Chinese to English, I have the same dilemma to decide which I should choose, "b" or "p".
Let's take an example of Taipei, my birthplace. In Chinese, we pronounce Taipei as TAI-BEI. Indeed there is a lot of translation confusion between English and Chinese. Even in Taiwan, there are at least three Chinese-to-English translation methods.
If I choose Roman-style Chinese-to-English translation, which is the official in China, my name becomes Zhaohua Chen. But I like my current English translation, so I stay put.
Chaohwa
Is that Cantonese or Mandarin?
I hope so! After being "all underground all the time" on the E starting with the WillyB closure on April 30, 1999, I am ready for a bit of fresh air on the M line!
As of this morning at 10:30 AM and by a vote of the full MTA Board yesterday - the Manhattan Bridge flip service begins on July 22, 2001. The 63rd St. connection opens and V service begins on November 10, 2001.
BTW: If anyone is interested in it, I have a scan of the draft car assignment matrix effective on 7/22/01. E-mail only (as usual)
Hi, please email Summer car assignments to a.m.voci@verizon.net
Thanks.
send it to me too at pingu45@aol.com
thanks
Listen guys, I asked that if you want the matrix - E-mail me. I do not intend to copy 10 or 20 or 30 E-mail addresses from subtalk into my E-mail program. It's very simple:
I F Y O U W A N T I T - E - M A I L M E ! ! !
Why July 22 I thought the Bridge Flip will be July 1 isnt that the corrent day to start Why are they delaying it to July 22?
A Washington Post article praised Metro maintenance forces for improving service.
It shows what a little dedication and smarts can do - empowered by enlightened management. MTA has people like that, too. How well are they empowered?
I just got the call from Electronic Boutique to pick up my copy of MS Train Simulator. There website states that it would be released on June 5th. What a surprise. Go get your copy.
Me too!
-Hank
I have to say, so far, it's boring. And get ready to use every last part of your brain and keyboard. EVERY key has a function. One problem I did run into is some graphics problems, for which I intend to notify MS. The program installs its own video driver as well.
Oh, if your train won't move, even if you've released the brakes and set the throttle and reverser, try the 'Z' key to acknowledge the signal.
-Hank
What are the system requirements to run it?
PII 266 MHz with 4MB 3D Video Card, MS Windows 95 and later (NO NT), 32 MB of RAM for Win 95-ME, 64 MB of RAM for Win 2000, 500 MB of available hard disk space FOR MINIMAL INSTALL, 1.8 GB FOR FULL INSTALL, DirectX 7.0. The better the system, the better the performance. I have and AMD Athlon @ 700 MHz, 196 RAM, 27 GB HD, and a Vodoo 3 Graphics card. The game works like a charm. All I can say is BUY IT NOW. Your wives won't see you for a good while.
What a *PIG* ... sure hope it's just like the real thing for such resource consumption. (Sorry for the insult, Mr American Pig, there are other porcine objects out there such as Redmond) ... heh.
What would put me over the top to make me *try* to pursuade my wiglets that this is somehow a business expense as a lab thingy would be how curved track is presented ... is it a lame bunch of straight tangents like BVE or is it an actual attempt at rounded curves like Mechanik? Inquiring mimes knead to no ...
Microsoft haters, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. those two young Polish GENIUSES Will receive $$$MONEY$$$ from GATE$ to bulk up MS Eastern Europe. Redmund will replace the Hague as the center of international affairs.
Me Wife preordered it from Amazaon (who is still saying 12th delivery on the 5th release) as well as the hint book (was supposed to be published in late may, still not published) for my birthday which is past.
I told her to wait and we would get it from EB but... I don't want to cancel the order in case they ship before updating the web site.
PII 266 MHz with 4MB 3D Video Card, MS Windows 95 and later (NO NT), 32 MB of RAM for Win 95-ME, 64 MB of RAM for Win 2000...
You see, this is misleading as 2000 is not Windows 95 or later, it's a form of NT.
And it's a lot better than 95, 98 or ME.
Understandable, but it simply won't operate under windows NT, but it will run with windows 2000. It will just need more memory. I don't know why.
That's not what I was talking about.
Windows 2000 is Windows NT 5.0, it is not in the Windows 4.x/9x series. By saying that NT will not work is misleading as Windows 2000 is NT. I was really pissed off when you said no NT, because I assumed it to mean 2000 (and for that matter, Windows xp, even the Home Edition is NT 6.0) until I read further.
You should have specified NT 4.0 (I wouldn't think it would work with NT 3.1, 3.5 or 3.51).
THe *()&(* box says 'DOES NOT RUN ON WINDOWS NT'. MS Does not consider Win2k as any way, shape, or form of NT, nor will they consider XP to be NT. What they've done for both is combine the NT kernel with actual useability. There's very little left of what was NT in 2k, and even less of both 9x and NT in XP. And word for the future, if it runs on 2k, it'll likely run just fine on XP.
-Hank
Exactly Hank, Bills ultimate plan has always been to combine the two operating systems (NT/Windoz) and only offer one in the future (should I say 3 since some still want their dos box).
Great to have a monopoly!
Great to have a monopoly!
It's a BAD thing that the horrible DOS kernel and the Windows 9x line is being abandoned in favor of the much more reliable NT-based system?
What are you drinking?
...much more reliable NT-based system...
If that lousy, rotten NT-based system is more reliable, I'd hate to think how bad the others are. Quick! Another Mac, please - with OS X!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went through some of the tutorials, and finally went through the 'Bridge Damage' scenario on the NEC, driving an Acela. Once you finish a scenario, you get a report (in RTF format), for which you get the details. Both can be saved for comparison purposes. Here's mine (HTML mine):
ACTIVITY: Bridge Damage
You completed this Activity after 26 minutes and 28 seconds of driving.
I had 30 minutes to complete the task. The game runs in real-time.
MINOR OPERATIONAL ERRORS:
You committed 4 minor operational errors:
17:40:47 - at mile post 21.21 you incurred a penalty brake application.
17:40:47 - at mile post 21.21 emergency brake applied.
17:40:47 - at mile post 21.21 you incurred a penalty power cutout
17:41:06 - at mile post 20.88 emergency brake applied.
TIMETABLE ADHERENCE:
You did not fail to stop at any stations.
You were not late arriving at any stations.
Overall you were 00:02:06 early.
Station Milepost Arrival +/- Departure +/-
Wilmington26.91 17:30:01+00:00:0017:30:33-0:00:12Left 12 seconds late
Philadelphia6.5017:56:03-00:02:06--:--:----:--:--
Totals -00:02:06+00:00:12
SPEED LIMIT ADHERENCE:
You exceeded the speed limit 4 times, for a total duration of 1 minute and 14 seconds.
17:35:14 - at mile post 23.78 you exceeded the speed limit of 15mph for 1 minute and 5 seconds at a maximum speed of 54mph
17:40:46 - at mile post 21.25 you exceeded the speed limit of 80mph for 2 seconds at a maximum speed of 83mph
17:46:23 - at mile post 12.19 you exceeded the speed limit of 110mph for 0 seconds at a maximum speed of 110mph
17:47:00 - at mile post 10.50 you exceeded the speed limit of 110mph for 6 seconds at a maximum speed of 111mph
IN-TRAIN FORCES:
You exceeded passenger comfort levels 4 times. Forces within the train jostled the passengers beyond acceptable limits.
17:40:12 - at mile post 21.84. Hard brake application for exceeding speed.
17:40:48 - at mile post 21.21. Hard brake application for exceeding speed.
17:41:43 - at mile post 20.87. Hard brake application for exceeding speed.
17:48:10 - at mile post 7.40. Hard brake application for reducing to 30Mph entering terminal area.
Very interesting.
I'd assume that 54mph in a 15mph zone must earn you a bit of down time in the 3-dimensional world!
Problem is the graphics quality. Increase it, game performance suffers. The trick is to use the track guide so that you can see things coming.
-Hank
What are the specs of your computer. I have all my graphic options maxed out and the game still runs flawless (Even when I hit 167 mph on the Tokyo-Hakone line).
I've got a PIII-500 with 128MB RAM, and a 32MB ATI All-in-Wonder video card, a 60GB HDD, and a 2x DVD-ROM (equal to about a 20x CD-ROM). There are some known conflicts with certain ATI chipsets.
-Hank
I've got a PIII-500 with 128MB RAM, and a 32MB ATI All-in-Wonder video card, a 60GB HDD, and a 2x DVD-ROM (equal to about a 20x CD-ROM). There are some known conflicts with certain ATI chipsets.
-Hank
I too got the notice, as soon as i play it a bit im going to review it on subfart.
"subfart."
uhm? -Nick
yea me and Marty made up this term for subtalk, since usually our *mine* opinion isn't the most popular here
oh ok! :-) -Nick
There was a public meeting at Temple Sholom in NE Philadelphia to get feedback from neighborhood residents on the proposed subway extension along the Roosevelt Boulevard corridor. I am travelling and was unable to attend. Does anyone know what transpired at the meeting, and what sort of opinions were expressed by citizens?
Mark
I heard that NJ Transit was building a new train station for the Woodbury Common shopper on the Fox5 news last night. Supposely it will open by the end of the year. I wish that the LIRR would do that for the Tanger Outlet in Riverhead.
You mean built by MNRR..NJT only RUNS the service for the MTA...And before you hold your breath, it stil has to be approved by NorfolkSouthern,NJT, and host of other folks,not the least of which is the Woodbury Common management.....
"...not the least of which is the Woodbury Common management."
I can't see why they would object to more customers in their stores -- so long as they don't have to pay for the construction.
Where is Woodbury Commons ?
Some station along the Port Jervis line has a shopping mall within walking distance. Which station is that, and is it predestrian-accessible from the station ?
The Middletown station is now on the property of the Middletown Galleria...Walking distance? Welllll..theres no sidewalk unfortunately..but it is close,as is a Sam's/WalMart....
I seem to remember a JC Penney visible from the train, I don't know if it was that mall.
A new line is being built to bring commuters from the Poconos of Pennsylvania to NYC ( either by way of Hoboken or Penn Station). Could this be the line that I was refferring to, or is this something altogether different? Port Jervis is located on the old Erie Mainline, and still has an old Turntble for turning locomotives around. Did the freight operation go to CSX or to Norfolk Southern?
Note: the Tanger outlet mall is served by Suffolk County Transit, and the website to look at is http://www.sct-bus.org. All schedules can be shown if you have Adobe Acrobat 4.0. If you need that , go to Adobe.com and download a free copy of the software.
Yes the tanger outlet is served by two buses ran by SCT. You can catch it from the riverhead station on the LIRR. One line stops in the mall the other passes by and I think for the latter its a flag stop.
A new line is NOT being built to bring commuters from the Poconos of Pennsylvania to NYC. NJ has recently condemned and agreed on a sales price with Turco for the NJ portion (no track on it) and the bridge over the Delaware. All the Pennsylvamnia trackage is secured. That is all that has happened. Earliest projections for service to HOBOKEN is 2005, but I won't hold my breath.
NS owns the track west of Suffern on the former Erie, sort of a throw back to 1970 when N&W's subsidiary Dereco owned D&H and EL.
Thanks. Now what seems to be the reason for the delay, money? If so, dose that make it a holdup or a stickup?
Here's a link to a story about the whole thing......
I don't think the LIRR mainline comes all that close to the Tnager Outlets.
:) Andrew
I think it is only 2 or 3 miles. Tanger already has a bus(trolley) they could run it to the station for the 4 times the train stops in Riverhead.
Well, yeah they could do that. Maybe they already do. But I think what streetcar_man was after was a new station on or arround the Tanger Outlet grounds. I don't think the line comes that close.
:-) Andrew
Yeah I wish I could go to Tanger but that would be next to impossible without a car. Tanger should provide a bus to the train station. Or SCT should. Since Tangers gears to NYC residents, it should only make sense for them to TAKE THE TRAIN there.
SEE my post on ZDENO.ORG regarding this subject....
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah! LIRR goes right by Tanger, it's absolutely ridiculous there's no station being put there. Then again, this is Long Island you know.
The LIRR is still pounding their chests that they abandoned Holtsville (they should run an hourly shuttle to Yaphank to alleviate parking at Ronkonkoma.) and Southampton College. Calverton disappeared in 1980. How dare customers at intermediate stops impede the progess of their trains to Greenport and Montauk !
I was just looking at the R-143 photo page at the delivery photos (thanks, Trevor), and noticed something interesting - the unit shown being delivered is #8101, an odd-numbered car, but is is quite clearly an A-unit (i.e. a unit with a cab and controls). This differs from other B division linked sets of more than two cars, like the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A, where the A-units (or "deemed" A-units in the case of the 68s) are the even-numbered cars. I thought at first that this may be because these cars are 60 footers, so they would be linked in units of five, but then I remembered that these cars are slated to be used on the Eastern Division, where they would have to be in units of four. Does anybody have any ideas about why the TA decided to go from even-odd-odd-even to odd-even-even-odd in the consists?
Thanks,
subfan
On my trip to Washinton D.C. I seen only NABI artics but NO M*A*N artics What happenend to them?
They are around but wrong board...
Sorry I forgot that this was subtalk!
This is sort of OT. It's my Flash Animation "Hello World."
It's a 55K SWF file. What you should see, if you have the flash plugin, is a 2 second animation of a half-tone fading in over a map. I'd really appreciate it if anyone could tell me if that's what you get. It should be pretty smooth, and the final picture should look nice. Even (maybe especially) if you don't have the plugin, maybe you could look at it, and tell me if you get an error message, or an offer to get the plugin from Macromedia, or what.
If you're so inclined, this is the link.
Thanks!
Works as you would expect in Netscape 4.77 on Linux ...
It worked well for me. Looked good.
works best with internet explorer version5.50
Worked very well for me. I'm running Netscape 4.77 on Win98SE over a 56K dialup connection. It loaded with no delay.
Good work!!
it does not work with Konqueror 2.1.1 (Using KDE 2.1.2) on Linux. You go into Shockwave looking for a plugin. The only plugins for Linux are for Netscape.
Works fine for me in IE 5.0.
Now, could you let us have a different version that changes a lot slower, so we can see what the underlying map is all about?
Thanks,
John.
Sorry. Here's the link to the map only.
This was one of the TA's bright ideas on the road to not builing the Second Avenue Subway. It would have involved a deep tunnel under Central Park, increasing Bronx capacity but bypassing Second Avenue entirely.
I remember the proposal was made around 1962. The Queens branch would have been around 80 St and would have lined up with Broadway, Queens. It would have connected with the IND local tracks just east of Steinway St. Interestingly, a similar service is now being provided by the 63 St connector, except it also connects with the IND express tracks. BTW the superimposed images look fine in IE 5.0.
I tried it at work this afternoon, and it worked perfectly, Windows 98, Internet Explorer 4 something. At home, Windows 95, probably an earlier version of IE, just a blank white screen. What is the location of the photograph? The map is intriguing; I can't imagine the NIMBY uproar if all that tunneling under Central Park came under public scrutiny. Actually, the 2nd Avenue route makes more sense.
Here's the map only.
The deep tunnel was to overcome the objections of New York's number one NIMPOYT (Not In My Park Or You're Toast), Robert Moses, by not disturbing the park surface. Moses was earlier supposed to have been influential in forcing he 8th Avenue Subway to be doubled-decked next to Central Park, even he wasn;t City Parks Commissioner until 1933.
It would have been a relatively cheap way to bring additional BMT-IND capacity to the Bronx, but it would have been (without substantial later work) pretty useless. It would have provided no added cpacity south of 110th Street, and provided additional Bronx capacity to the Concourse Line, which didn't need it.
It's pretty clear that a line under any of the avenues would be more useful than one under Central Park, unless the explicit idea was to provide express service only.
The double-decked stations under CPW make sense. A typical four-track single-level line would place the northbound entrances on the park side of the street. A double-decked line with both local tracks upstairs and both express tracks downstairs would have eliminated the park-side entrances but would replace them with a mezzanine, unless the island platform could somehow be placed directly beneath the west-side sidewalk (which would place the southbound track below the buildings). The current arrangement means that most commuters (well, the few commuters who actually put up with the line) go down two flights in the morning and up one flight in the afternoon.
I forgot to mention the location of the photo. It's at 129th Street and 3rd Avenue. I published it as part of this article.
And just so you know that it is really cross-platform compatible, it worked fine on my Mac running OS 8.1 with Communicator 4.7.
Looked fine to me
Simon
Swindon UK
Paul, it works fine on my G3 Mac, OS 8.5, Navigator 4.7.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It works here, but I do hope you won't chase out anyone who doesn't have the plugin and has no interest in installing it (or is using a platform that Macromedia doesn't support).
I viewed it easily with IE5. Nicely done!
Works as you suspected in Netscape 4.73
Mr t__:^)
Budd cars M-402 through M-407 were delivered to PRSL in fall of 1950 and the Cape May Seashore Lines celebrated the 50th anniversary last October. The event was very well received and public pressure prevailed upon management to follow up with the 50th anniversary celebration of the delivery of the second half-dozen cars, M-408 through M-413, which were delivered in May and June of 1951.
Fiftieth anniversary part 2 will be held on Saturday June 9 beginning at 10 AM at Cape May Court House' 4-H Fairgrounds station, with the first train of the day (M-407 and M-410) to Cape May. The actual festivities will begin at the Cape May City station at 11 AM. Speakers will include retired PRSL engine crew members. The Budd Company official photographer of 50 years ago also expects to speak and bring a collection of his photographs (health permitting: he's 83 and in excellent health, having missed the October celebration because he was travelling in Europe). T-shirts and mementos will be available at the Cape May station, as well as an anniversary cake (enough for all guests is planned).
Cape May is at the southern end of New Jersey.
I saw a TGC1 "track inspection car" going S/B on the downtown 8th avenue local at 34th street around 11:25AM. We passed it again going downtown on the A, which was a hot car (R44) but at least we flew down the express. The TGC1 was going slow, I guess it was "inspecting".
Also rode an R142A going uptown on the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to 51st.
Everything functioned flawlessly, the announcements worked fine.
Also those things are FAST. Between BB and Canal was real fast, the only opportunity to see near the train's full potential. When it accelerates you really have to hold on, the pull is very strong. The braking also seemed very good (contrary to what others have said). The T/O must've been pretty confident with the brakes as we went into stations full speed then stopped right on the marker.
I kinda like the R142A's. Sure they don't have "railfan window" but the view through the cab is OK, plus they are fast and come to smooth steady stop.
I still haven't rode one of the (Bombardier) R142's. How many are running on the 2?
Of course the ride to Queens on the 7 express was pretty exhilerating. This time I got to enjoy it as no one stole the window from me, and the senior T/O really wrapped it between Woodside and Junction.
The Bombardier R-142 is running flawlessly also. very quick on the 7 av run between 96th st. and chambers st. very comfortable and no traction motor noise. while riding the 7, did you see the row of burnt out restaurants?
I was looking for it because of what I heard on the news about the terrible fire last night near the 7 line. That sounded terrible. Add yet another eye sore to the many rather delapidated buildings along the 7 line. Seriously, the graffiti on the buildings along the 7 line (esp between Woodside and Shea Stadium)is some of the worst I've seen, it even looks worse than most areas along the J. What is going on with Queens? The open cut near Flushing on the LIRR is pretty disgusting too, graffitti and garbage all over the place.
Where exactly are the destroyed buildings since I couldn't find them.
I think it happened near Sunnyside. Did it disrupt 7 line service?
its been there for years. up to now, land lords have not cleaned it up. some have cleaned it up but the little bad ass teens strike again. and some aren't gangs.
A llot of 'em are teens from pretty well-off families and no supervision or values.
I say again here - MTA should have the right, for repeat offenders and egregious violators, to attach college aid money, wages and even parental income to pay for some of the damage. Want to attend City U. and have made a career out of destroying subway car windows, wrecking buildings etc.? Work out the payment plan first, else forget about going to class...
I know some of you think that's too draconian. Maybe. I would not propose it for first or even second offenders.
graffitti is mostly on roof tops. garbage thats new. i haven't seen any garbage in sunnyside/woodside.
According to news reports, 7 service was slowed up due to smoke but otherwise unaffected. The fire happened on the northside of QB right along side the Bliss Street Station. It involved a Korean Restaurant. The property has always alternated between a restaurant and a catering hall since the 60's.
Traffic on Queens Blvd was rerouted. One report had traffic turning north on 58th Street to Roosevelt Ave and then west on Roosevelt to Skillman Ave.
No mention if Bliss Street was closed during the fire (I would hope so), or what the exact reroutes for the Q32, Q60 and Q104 were.
This was not a part of 7 line that is/was affected by the grafitti problem.
Since I am one of the people on the board that live the closest to the affected area (I'm about 10 minutes away walking), I think I should tell you what was going on.
There was a fire (duh!). It consumed the korean restaurant, a fruit stand (baked fruit, anyone?), and a pub on 46th Street. Traffic was closed on Queens Blvd for a while. Once it opened, it was only one lane. A bulldozer arrived around 3:00 in the afternoon. As I watched it start to bring the place down, some guy yelled "SAVE THE BOOZE!"
I actually saw smoke from this fire as I rode my J train over the Williamsburgh bridge, it was that big.
TGC1 - Track Geometry Car 1
there are 5 R-142 (bombardier) running on the 2 line. #6 is coming on monday. R-142 coming to the 5 line by september.
You're off by a set.
6301-10
6311-20
6326-35
6321-25,6346-50
6411-20
6421-30
6 Train Sets in All.
Any questions?
-Stef
Thursday nite while working the 5, I saw 6466-70 over at E.180St yard and 6471-75 at Unionport.
i guess i haven't been keeping up this week. so # 7 is coming on monday.
Aye! I wonder what they could be putting in this time? 6336-45 has not returned to revenue service as of yet.....
Then again, neither has 7211-20.
-Stef
The 142/142a's may seem fast but after talking to the T/O's and dispatchers they are hardly ever on time.
This morning, when I woke, I heard on the radio the red line was delayed due to some sort of fire near Tenleytown and they were single tracking. Just wonderful. I went downstairs, and got the usual dose of WMATA contradicting itself.
Went on their website, no news. Went to wtopnews.com, no luck their either. Called Metro, spoke to a real live human and she said 12-15 minute delays and there was a bus bridge.
So, grabbing breakfast on the run, I set out to the Metro stop. Sure enough, when I got there, no buses, no crowds, looks like Friendship Heights at 7:15 AM on a weekday morning. Head down the escalator and I see someone coming up. Ask if everything is normal and sure enough, it is.
Many inbound trains were heading to Silver Spring, including many that originated at Shady Grove. I saw them entering Grosvenor full of passengers. Seemed the same number of trains were turning back at Grosvenor, too. I wonder...
Metro opens early tomorrow for the Race for the Cure. The RFTC pays the operating costs until 8 AM and Metro pays them any revenue they make.
The gov. boarded the A in Harlem 3PM today. Rode the second car. Was going to the battery. Made small talk with passengers. Syracuse newspaper
Link Francis Ford Coppola to the 2nd avenue subway in under 9 steps.
Is one of the links "Apocalypse Now?"
Speculation: Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries ---> distant relative of NY Mayor Wagner ---> original Second Av proposal related to tearing down an El?
No, can't be.
Link Francis Ford Coppola to the 2nd avenue subway in under 9 steps.
Hmmm ... a Ford is a brand of automobile ... an automobile is a form of transportation ... and a subway is also a form of transportation. And yes, I am certain that is not what you had in mind.
Francis Ford has a Coppola and so do the R44's that were originally intended for the second avenue subway ... now where's my got damn prize? :)
1) Francis Ford Coppola is the uncle of Talia Shire.
2) Talia Shire played Adreine Balboa in the Rocky Movies.
3) Rocky was played by Sylvester Stallone.
4) Sylvester Stallone played Deek DeSilva in Nighthawks.
5) DeSilva & Sgt Fox chased the terrorist, Wolfgar, into the 63rd St tunnel right at the connection to the 2nd Avenue subway (While it was under construction).
Another easy one
Wow ... we've REALLY gotta get you out on a fantrip, bro. :)
Got dat right!
Heh. I'm ready to chat about the excitement factor of the 205th street relay and what the layup order is to the Wye at the west end of the station. Yike. ANYTHING but which is the slowest, which is the crappiest and what I'd do if I was the subway czar to throw the schedule all to hell ... and I've been OUT of the system for 30 years. I'd be more likely to CARE. :)
Sorry for the observation, but some of us have lost our way. Suggests that we've talked everything to death and I'd hate to have to settle for sifting through the archives. Isn't there anything old that's new again? (don't mind me - I fight computer nasties for a living and I love coming here to think about things OTHER THAN worms, viruses, trojans and the like - but some of the subject matter lately has been as boring as a bowling ball) Sometimes ya just gotta watch the closing doors. Bing bong ...
What I've noticed since I began posting here is that the board runs in streaks.
Some weeks, the board is hot and leads to very knowledgeable Q&A. Other weeks, it's like watching paint dry.
Lately, you have to watch where you lean. Some guys still post good stuff (i.e. TD, Jeff, David), but there's been a bit of dead weight hanging around lately.
What was the first elevated line in Brooklyn? Why?
I thought that the original Lexington Ave Line was Brooklyn's first elevated line.
Since you said "Trick" I suppose there is more to it than that.
I guess the "Trick" is on me.
I had gotten the impression that it had become common to say that the Coney Island Elevated (1881) was the First Brooklyn Elevated, rather the Lex (1885).
Those who argue against the Coney Island elevated have said either that it wasn't really an elevated in the true sense, more like a trestle with bridges, or else that it was an elevated, all right, but never part of the elevated system since it was never hooked up for through service, being a two-station shuttle.
What I hadn't seen said, which was the "Trick," which was that even if the Coney Island Elevated is accepted as an elevated, it wasn't in Brooklyn, and wouldn't be in Brooklyn until Gravesend Town was annexed in 1894, nine years after the Lex opened.
When I mention the Coney Island el, I say "first in Kings County," or "first in what became Brooklyn."
So for all that, the correct answer is the Lexington Avenue el. The joke's on me.
I'll bite ... the Brooklyn Bridge cable cars?
Where was that bicycle-powered elevated, Coney Island?
I spotted it again today passing 42nd Street. A R-142 set was making simulated stops on the 5 line. Unfortunately, I did not ger the car numbers.
new set is supposed to come soon. some of those sets that you see doing sim runs on the 5 go to the 2 line. however they ones on the 2 lines are being programed to run on the 5 line when they have to without the map working.
When the 5 runs express, what is being done to prevent passengers from boarding from the "wrong" platform at E. 180th? If only the fence between the southbound track and northbound (island) platform at Bowling Green were removed, passengers could take a private ride from E. 180th to BG.
If any of the upcoming new B Division cars make simulated stops on the A, it will be possible to have a private ride from 59th to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Where else will this be possible? Obviously on the 6, 7, and D express. The D express from the Bronx to 59th also works. The D and A could be combined to get from Kingsbridge to H-S. Anything longer than that?
The Selkirk chapter of pEta (People Energizing the Trains Again) are pleased to announce our first annual Father's Day NYC Transit Vandalism outing and subtalkers are invited to join. If you wish to participate, you will need to bring supplies to make our first outing our biggest and best EVER ...
What you will need:
1 Philips screwdriver
1 crew key (BRT keys are OK too)
1 spanner wrench
1 golden slipper (to insulate current collectors while work is being done)
50 feet of Belden 0000 gauge insulated wire, rated 1200 V
50 feet of Belden 0000 gauge equivalent tinned copper braid
2 1600 amp, 1.2kV rated link fuse
2 Amphenol MAV connectors
pair rubber gloves (12kV breakdown)
2 Mazda #2567 36 volt lamps
How we're going to celebrate Father's day
We will meet at 0330 on Father's day (June 17, 2001) at the northeast entrance of the Concourse yards. Teams will be assigned to select individual R68 cars and will make necessary modifications to restore field shunting, involving wiring in the shunt taps and connecting them to existing but removed wiring to the local/express sockets on the bulkhead of each car. Optionally, if time permits, we will replace the original roll curtains on each car.
At the end of the scheduled activities, one R68 consist will have field shunting restored to all cars. If time permits, a second train will be similarly vandalized. Following the completion of our releasing of R68's from existing inhumane conditions, two teams will pilot the R68's through the system, bashing wheel detectors with a brickbat, disabling them throughout the night until we conclude the fan trip at the Stillwell yard leads on the West End line at sunrise.
Following the fan trip, weenies will be roasted at MTA headquarters and will be subjected to folk songs until such time as they relent and remove the Central Park West timers, including the downgrade timers between 103 St and 125th Street on the 8th Avenue IND tracks. If customers from other parts of the system appear for this event, we will similarly demand removal of all offensive signals from their own local lines as well. Wearing of medallions is optional. Trains will be tagged with Corona stickers to permit easy identification.
NOTE: No Sea Beach cars will be harmed in this unauthorized GOH. Please also note that this is satire. I may be nuts, but I ain't crazy.
Im way ahead of you, If I only knew how this lectrical wiring Mumbo Jumbo worked. Fill me in my man.
This is only a test. Had it been an actual alert, you would have been instructed to tune to the nearest TA frequency for further instructions. This is ONLY a test.
Actually, many many years ago, I listened to Abbie Hoffman go to a phone booth in lower Manhattan near Water street, drop dime on his friends (whose phones he knew were "warm") and told each to meet him at the Staten Island ferry terminal in a half hour - they were going to hijack the Staten Island ferry and take it to CUBA ... now as anyone who rides the boat regularly knows, there isn't enough fuel to get it OUT of the harbor ... a point lost on the law enforcement types of the time.
Needless to say, SWAT was there in full regalia ... he told the story several times again on WBAI.
HaHa, i like that one, What a boring time we live in now, thats why i pass myself as 76 years olde.
Yeah, some folks have forgotten how to have fun. A chuckle costs nothing either.
Thats why people like you, and I like to think me too live long
So ya up for a rewire job? I teach ya how to solder. :)
Of course the chances of me having time to get to the city are about the same as the odds of hitting a BILLION dollars playing Looto at the moment ...
Im ready to learn, Just say when. Wouldnt this R-68 re-wire job piss our pal Train Dude a bit off?
Heh. "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't." I have no idea of what they ripped out, but if I had my druthers, they'd be back in and the cab of a train would keep you AWAKE just like it used to. Comfy seats, joysticks, and just move the brake handle to here and she'll stop all by herself and you won't have pissed off geese? Nope. That ain't the way subways were ...
Hey, don't forget to bring your spray-can....;-)
BMTman
So we're ON for it? KEWL! Don't forget to bring that pitchfork you were swinging in that pic ya sent me dancing that Gandy walk along with Larry and Curly doing the reaction shot while YOU did all the work with that rail axe ... man, gotta choose better friends. Heh.
So has that land yacht of yours cleared the Malbone interlock yet?
oh yea Like I'll forget, knowing me? pshhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Regardless of what you may think, we are NOT vandalizing Renwick, or anything else on the island.
oh great...bring the R68 DOWN to R110B standards! -Nick
Heh. Sorry guy, just so sick of all the whining. :)
I understand :-) -Nick
Well in that case, while you restore phase shunting you should look at the R68 traction motors and fix that whine from them!!
For the LAST time, it isn't the MOTORS whining, it's the subtalkers. :)
LOL .... < G > .... please stop I'm getting funny looks from the staff here.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. And that would be because of Subtalk? Better be careful, you might find us looking over the busses to see what can be filched to fix the redbirds. :)
A CNG powered Redbird .... hmmm, would require that the entire underground be fixed so they would fit, then we would have to make the entire system explosion proof ... guess that's not such a good idea.
Well, maybe we could make them into trailers (on rubber tires) to be pulled around ... would have to cut in stairways & install pull cords.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. That'd give the redbird fans something to think about. Let's DO it! :)
How about cutting 'em in half and making artics? Better yet, put rails back in the streets and run some overhead wires; it works for R-9s and 17s :D.
Sounds good. Folks in cars and trucks would learn right away not to play chicken with a Redbird HRV (heavy vs. LRV).
Mr t__:^)
But, Thurston, doesn't your staff ALWAYS give you funny looks? ;-D
BMTman
Only those who have been here know for sure, and I told you everything was a secret & you were supose to forget you were ever here. I knew I should have left you locked in the orange bin.
Mr t__:^)
A Hippo on Steroids now I would be up for that !
My friend me thinks you've been spending too much time at the Coke machine on long over nights ? Did the wife take a vacation and leave you holding down the fort ?
Mr t__:^)
Heh. We have IV drips for Cherry coke here. Nancy handles the day shift, I do the nights ... nice and quiet at night, you can THINK. :)
Wonder what the 68's could do though if they had some balls. (grin)
If we ever get one at Branford, we'll have to do something or she'll run out of track before she gets anywhere close up to speed. Our R-17 almost gets up to a gallop before we have to back off the Controller (there is a darn hill & a S curve right in the middle of the run).
Mr t__:^)
State of New York is about to pay for some serious track-straightening here in upstate for the Empire Corridor so the trains will be able to gallop ... if the museum as on this side of the Connecticut river, maybe we could fund that. :)
I sit here watching 8 miles of extremely straight track that was abandoned a year ago rust away wishing some old subway cars could stretch their legs out on it. Alas there was a 3MPH restriction on it before it was abandoned, so that give you an idea of how big an investment in wood and gravel would be required ...
Your suppose to slow down for that curve???
Opps
Actually, all you need to fix the field shunting problem is
a pair of wire cutters, but I think the R68s got ECAM during GOH,
so you'd need a PROM burner then.
E-CAM, yes...GOH, no (SMS, remember?).
David
EPROMS ... we can do EPROMS ... take it in a little here, a little tuck there, push the WRITE button, woohoo. Ah, the things you can actually accompilsh on subtalk and nowhere else. :)
Subway-buff: Tell Peggy that her timing for the LIRR Port Jeff/ ferry/ Bridgeport MN trip was right on. Tie replacement (concrete ties)on the Port Jeff branch is resulting in transfer to buses at Huntington today and at Smithtown tomorrow (eastbound).
Amazing how enthused LIRR has become about concrete ties, now that their 150-ton DE/DM engines are spreading rails and have caused a derailment on the branch.
For the concrete tie job between Kew Gardens and Jamaica Avenue a couple of years ago, they replaced wooden ties that were a mere 7 years old, and were sold to the BR&W.
All are hidden expenses of not electrifying to Port Jeff.
Gee I hope they don't have to do with work on the OB branch!
As soon as they have a derailment on the OB branch, it'll be their next priority. Anything but admit their Super Steel engines are not track-worthy and should go to Naparona.
I agree with you about the "hidden cost." However, properly designed and installed concrete ties are superior anyway (NE Corridor has them), so I have no inherent objections to their installation.
I don't either, but I was pointing out their ulterior motive for doing so, especially when they are in some cases pulling up perfectly good wooden ties.
It has a LA Metro train with the T/O saying doors opening and the doors do not open then he says doors closing please stand clear and the doors are closed then the train moves a couple of feet. then the same thing happens. the train sounds like the DC metro rohr cars and the MBTA 01800's.
as some of you know, the 7 came out on the queens tribune newspaper. it said "they will be replaced by new, high-tech silver cars the beginning of 2002". also i got this:
"R-142/R-142A Option Order: This option order for 320 additional cars will be taken according to operations to complete the full retirement of the R36 World's Fair cars. Estimate to take place sometime in early 2002."
so are the r142's coming to the 7 or what? To me, i think they are because the 7 will be getting cbtc after the L line. The r62's don't have cbtc. does anybody know whats going to happen?
1. No IRT cars have CBTC capability. Whether they can/will be retrofitted with it at some point in the future is a different matter.
2. Car assignments are determined by NYC Transit, not the Queens Tribune.
The option order of 320 R-142s (which has been awarded to Bombardier, by the way, and isn't really an option...it's a change of the contract terms) will indeed replace R-36s, along with R-26s, R-28s, R-29s, and R-33s (including single units). No one group of new cars is replacing any one group of old cars, and just because a line's fleet is being replaced, that doesn't mean that the line is getting new cars. The #7 line will get what it gets, when it gets it.
David
[1. No IRT cars have CBTC capability. Whether they can/will be retrofitted with it at some point in the future is a different matter. ]
My impression is thas R142(A) do have it.
Arti
Impressions aren't always accurate. The R-142 and R-142A cars have NO CBTC capability. The R-143s (for the Canarsie Line) are coming in wired for it, but without the equipment installed...that will come later.
David
[Impressions aren't always accurate. The R-142 and R-142A cars have NO CBTC capability. The R-143s (for the Canarsie Line) are coming in wired for it, but without the equipment installed...that will come later. ]
So probably R142s are ready aswell. Fact is that they use the LonWorks based intercar communication system, the same used in R143.
Arti
I am well aware that the R-142 and R-142A cars use LonWorks. In fact, I'm the one who first reported it on this board.
The R-143s have wiring to which CBTC equipment will be attached. They have space reserved for the equipment. The R-142 and R-142A have neither. Can space be found within the cars for the equipment? No doubt, especially as such equipment is bound to become smaller over the next few years. But at this point, June 2001, the cars are not equipped for CBTC, nor is the wiring in place for the equipment.
David
Could've sworn the 6 Line with the R142As is getting ATO sometime soon.
ATO is not CBTC. CBTC allows the trains to operate by relaying their positions. ATO just automates the train.
I know. That wasn't a mistake.
[Could've sworn the 6 Line with the R142As is getting ATO sometime soon. ]
Depends what you define as soon. MTA will replace signals when they need replacement and IND will be the next project after 7.
See http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/mta.gif
The ones in red will be next for resignaling.
Arti
I believe there was signaling work out in on the Pelham Line a while ago. Also, the West End is getting signal work as well.
[I believe there was signaling work out in on the Pelham Line a while ago. ]
Exactly! Lines what need to be resignaled will be done using CBTC, Pelham already in good state of repair will not be one of them in the near future.
Arti
please excuse me what CBTC MEAN. Thank you ,DT
Communications Based Train Control
(click on above to read a NYCT report on same)
please excuse me what CBTC MEAN. Thank you ,DT
Just because they are replacing R36wf's doesn't mean they go to thew #7
The 7 runs 11 car trains.
yeah but they can change all that. you'll never know.
Considering that nearly ALL of the R-142's will arrive in 5-car config, i'd say it's a safe bet. (Some bombardier cars are coming in 6-car sets.)
The T/A has announced because of the complaints about the R-68s on SubTalk that the control settings are going to be changed. They are going to set the acceleration rate at 5mph per second which is the same as the BMT Multi-Section cars so they will have to place "Hold On" signs throughout the cars. They are also going to install powerful new brakes that can slow the cars at 5 mph per second. They have also raised the top speed of the cars to 120 mph which will be reached on the express tracks of the Sea Beach Line.
BMTJeff
I didn't know it was April 1st. I better re-set the clock on my computer.
great!! Will the R68s get the NX route signals as well??????
The R-68s will definitely get NX signals as well. This upgrading of the R-68s is a test being conducted by the T/A to see if high speed train service is possible in the New York City subway system.
BMTJeff
"NX route signals"? Those would be special signals to be installed on the Sea Beach express tracks for the (120 mph) revived "NX" route, right?
That's correct. There would have to be "NX" signals.
BMTJeff
And when the 2nd Ave subway is built will the R-68s stop at a station near Bellevue just for SubTalkers !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
That is correct. They'll even provide computers that can only access the SubTalk webpage for those bored SubTalkers waiting for a train or just to pass the time.
BMTJeff
I've also heard that the crews in da Bronx will be painting Zebra stripes on these cars so that certain folks will stop calling them Hippos.
Mr t__:^)
They have even thought of Cheetah spots on the R-68s. Even better, they have also thought of painting flames on the sides of the cars.
BMTJeff
There have been some recent postings on the ridership of the Sea Beach and Brighton, with a little West End thrown in. With the Manny Bridge flip coming fairly soon, and (from what I read here) the expected weekend truncation of the West End at Pacific St., it would be useful to see the official ridership figures for Brighton, 4th Ave., Sea Beach and West End (Culver thrown in for comparison). It seems to me that if there is to be a truncation of weekend service over the Manny Bridge, it should be done with the line with the least number of riders since the least number of people should be inconvenienced. (I don't know why any truncation is needed now, since in the "old" days before the Christie connection was built, I think the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End all operated weekends over the bridge as expresses to Manhattan.)
Does anyone have separate weekday average, and weekend average, ridership figures for each of these lines? If not, average daily, or total yearly values for each line would still give a sense of their ranking, by ridership. For this purpose, I thought it would be helpful to include the Culver (F), since it always runs to Manhattan from Brooklyn.
I think ridership should be (with the typical exclusion of stations served by more than one route) for:
Brighton - between Prospect Park and Coney Island (and also DeKalb and CI),
Culver - between Church Ave. and CI (and Jay St. and CI) - (just for comparison),
4th Ave. - between 59th St. and 95th St.,
Sea Beach - between 59th St. and CI.
West End - between 36th St. and CI.
It seems to me that if there has to be a truncation of service on weekends, the route with the lowest number of riders should be truncated, and services on the northern ends could still be maintained, as was (is?) done with the Q serving Queensbridge most weekday hours and the B serving Queensbridge other times. That didn't seem to be confusing to riders.
Any comments?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
1999 statistics:
WEEKDAYS:
Brighton (Ocean Parkway-7 Avenue, not including Prospect Park): 105,115
Culver (Neptune Avenue-York Street, not including 4 Avenue or Jay Street): 74,411
Sea Beach (86 Street-8 Avenue, not including New Utrecht Avenue): 22,137
West End (Bay 50 Street-9 Avenue, not including 62nd Street): 42,055
4 Avenue (95 Street-Union Street, not including 9 Street): 61,907
SATURDAYS:
Brighton: 56,886
Culver: 40,015
Sea Beach: 9,802
West End: 19,597
4 Avenue: 34,829
SUNDAYS:
Brighton: 45,311
Culver: 31,594
West End: 16,010
Sea Beach: 7,367
4 Avenue: 25,608
The stations that were left out were omitted because they serve more than one line. It's impossible to tell (without separate counts) which line these people took once they entered the system.
David
These statistics are interesting - and useful:
1. If any line deserves peak express service, it's the Culver line. Maybe this could be accomplished by extending the V to Kings Highway during peak hours as an express fro Jay St., or terminating the F at Church Ave. during peak yours, and replaing it by the V, operating express between Jay and Church, then local to Coney Island.
2. If any weekend bridge service should be truncated, it should be on the Sea Beach, not the West End.
Mike Rothenberg
By those stats it is hard to argue. But remember if the West End was truncated the Sea Beach would gain more riders. They do ride over very similar routes and they intersect and almost intersect at numerous points. But you guys are starting to wear me down. I still don't know ridership on the Sea Beach is so low. It bums me out, and here I sit writing wearing my Navy Blue and Yellow N shirt. What a pisser.
Fred, fear not. West End is much higher than those figures quote, since they were from 2 years ago. Ditto for Sea Beach.
Thanks Piasan. I think I will be able to hold out longer, but I do wonder why so few people ride the Sea Beach. Is there no industry anywhere on its route? Strange. And why does the Brighton have so much traffic?
Question 1. There isn't much industry along the Sea Beach, though there is more than along the other lines under discussion.
Question 2. This question was posed, and answered in detail, under another thread a few days ago.
David
Well, in some ways I cannot understand it either, since the Sea beach serves a very densly packed Chinese area in Sunset Park. In fact, the custom among the chinese is to ride the N train until they see blue sky, then get off, meaning the first stop after the running on open sub-grade.
The West End goes thru the Hasidic community of Borough Park, which has the largest growing population base. It's not uncommon for a Hasidic family to have 5, 6, 7 even 8 children.
But, as industry expands in the Sea Beach's area, and it will, many construction projects are occuring on the corridor, and with the opening of the Bay Ridge Rail Transfer station, things will look up.
Ciao.
As I mentioned a few days ago, the busiest Sea Beach Line station, by far, is 8 Avenue, or "Blue Sky" as it's called by the locals (not by the expresses {g}). North of that, N trains are on the Fourth Avenue Line, and turnstile counts accrue to that line and not the Sea Beach.
David
It's entirely obvious why the Brighton line gets more ridership.
While on the other lines, once you get away from the range of one line, you're in the range of the other, the Brighton is the last line. It gets all the bus traffic. It also goes through high density areas in Brighton and Flatbush. And is the fastest route, with the Q.
The Brighton handles much of the bus/train commuters from Manhattan Beach, Gerritsen Beach and Sheepshead Bay, not unlike the E/F handling much of the traffic from Hollis, Queens Village and Laurelton. One way to ease congestion on the Brighton is to extend the IRT south from Flatbush/Nostrand, which is not in anyone's plans to date.
thats not where the traffic on the D/Q comes from, There is a shizzit full of people along the E 16 street coming from brighton and Up, if you extend the IRT down, it wont do Sh*t, i love the way pwoplw make assumptions, and plus i like yhe way people talk about the culver, like it gets no passengers from brooklyn at all, only from queens JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZus Christ was born a JEWWWWWWW, and rode a BIKE
You're an idiot.
The Culver Line gets NO bus traffic in Brooklyn, nobody is that stupid.
Extending the IRT would be a lot better if it turned down the Bay Ridge tracks, then went down Flatbush Avenue.
And bikes weren't invented 2000 years ago, when Christ was born and died a Jew.
I agree about the IRT. An extension would only be useful if it turned onto the Bay Ridge tracks with a terminus at, say Utica Av., probably best with one station between the Flatbush Av. station and Utica Av.
I wasn't saying that! I was saying that the line should be run down Flatbush, not Nostrand, and it can't be done directly without demolishing the Flatbush station.
In fact, I think what you're proposing is even more useless that a Nostrand extension.
Remember 60 plus years ago, the Nostrand Line was planned, also a branch down Utica Ave was also planned, with them to meet somewhere around Ave U and Nostrand
Sorry, then I misunderstood. I don't agree at all with an extension down Flatbush. And you and I have been down that route before. My suggestion to use the Bay Ridge tracks to Utica would provide East Flatbush residents with much better service. And using the existing open cut would certainly cost a whole lot less than digging a new subway.
What good would an extension to Utica Avenue and Farragut Road do? There isn't any reason to spend money to extend subway service one stop to a fairly useless location (unless auto repair shops need subway service).
Why do you think a subway extension down Flatbush isn't a good idea?
Actually, auto repair shops do need subway service. You drive there. You drop your car off. Now you want to go home, or to work, or wherever.
Pigs, in my time, anyway, there was a large number of passengers who used the #6 bus from Canarsie and Flatlands who used to go to the Flatbush Av. terminal of the IRT subway. An extension to Utica and Farragut would cut down their travel time immensely. I assumed that this is still the case.
Yea Q, how does it feel to be useless. American Pig has spoken. He's the guy to tell us what's what. Sometimes I wonder why I like him. Maybe because he's so opinionated like I used to be. Oh my, the wonders of youth. Let it go in one ear and out the other.
Actually, Fred, I was surprised at his answer. My impression of Pigs is that he is an extremely intelligent person. But no one is infallible, and I stick by my opinion. The only underground subway that NYC should be building is the 2nd Av. line. All other subway line extensions should be on existing open cuts and embankments (a la Brighton, Sea Beach, and Dyre Av.).
Why not extend the L/Canarsie to terminate at the unused lower level at 9th Ave on the West End Line, with connections to the 2/5 at Flatbush/Nostrand, the D at either Ave H or Newkirk Ave (depending upon logistics...probably Ave H), the F at Ditmas and the B&M at the the L's new terminus at 9th Ave/LowerLevel?
Seems to me you'd be opening up whole new vistas of travel around Brooklyn with such an extension...as well as regain the use of an existing unused station in the process.
Yeah, but the ratio hasn't changed much. The 15 year abuse of the Sea Beach line has rendered it useless to most people except those who live right on top of it.
okay, I too was riding along my beloved N with the navy blue N tshirt and enjoy the fact that it's relatively empty compared to the D,Q, & B into Brooklyn...
I do know that everytime I ride the B,D,Q I feel like cutting my wrists because of the agony that I go through from the noise.
The N train is peaceful, people opt not to ride it because they think it's slower...not true at all...
Someone mentioned that the N serves the financial district for Brooklyn...they get out of work around 5-6 PM..that's when the N is crowded...otherwise, all the other N passengers are already home, with their family, etc.
The other trains BDQ, cater to to the facotry workers, restaurant owners, cashiers, etc, and the financial mid-towners....they work around the clock. Actually, someone said this about the 4 train, but applies here...
I like my N train peaceful and quiet....Grand Street, I admit, attracts too many noisy people...
By the way, even when the downtown N/ R were going local on Broadway (before station rehab), they were still pretty fast getting to DeKalb...
I got off the R at 34th and took the Q to DeKalb, (no wait for the Q)...I get to Dekalb, 5 minutes later, the same R train pulls up, with the same bum I saw earlier sleeping on it...
it's really only a 5-9 minute difference....I rather sit down & enjoy the silence...
by thw ay, I am still lobbying to keep R68's on the N
Seabeach53
1. The people at the local stops between Church Avenue and Jay Street screamed bloody murder the last couple of times NYCT hinted at running express service in that area (of course, the chief concern was the loss of direct service to Manhattan, since the local service would have been the G).
2. If memory serves, it was felt that Sea Beach riders have suffered enough, what with their trains being relegated to the Montague Street Tunnel and Broadway Local for the past 15 years due to ongoing Manhattan Bridge work. Truncating the Sea Beach was deemed politically untenable, although the ridership statistics support such a service pattern.
David
I think running the F express from Church to Jay is now justified, with the extension of the V to Church picking up the slack at the local stations.
[I think running the F express from Church to Jay is now justified, with the extension of the V to Church to pick up the slack at the local stations.]
Agreed!! However, I'm fairly certain that there are nowhere near enough cars available to pull that off.
Also, the G would need to be extended to Church, since the express tracks would no longer be available for relays.
Exactly. With the Culver getting a good deal of service, it would be smart to utilize the express tracks. Plus, extending the G gives them another local. The only problem is the presently unusable Culver express tracks from Jay to 4th av.
[The only problem is the presently unusable Culver express tracks from Jay to 4th av. ]
The interlocking is planned yo be fixed, they'll try the first solid state interlocking in the system there.
Arti
Solid state? What are the other interlockings using, vacuum tubes?
Here's what Google gave me as the first result.
Look for descripption of SSI at http://www.indianbusinesspages.com/Railway/Solid%20State/
Arti
>>The interlocking is planned yo be fixed, they'll try the first solid state interlocking in the system there.<<
Arti
That being the interlocking at Jay, correct? As reported on this site the problems are:
1. messed up tower at Bergen.
2. Bergen LL station is not in condition for revenue service. (this would be essential for express service).
3. Rails in bad condition from Jay St. to 4th av.
I don't think that the interlocking is the problem, but then again, I know little about those tracks.
BTW: What is a solid state interlocking? What are the other interlockings?
I don't think that the interlocking is the problem, but then again, I know little about those tracks.
The interlocking has been out of service since the fire. The other issues are minor by comparison.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[That being the interlocking at Jay, correct? As reported on this site the problems are:
1. messed up tower at Bergen. ]
This project will bring the control over to Jay St tower.
[2. Bergen LL station is not in condition for revenue service. (this would be essential for express service). ]
Why would it be essential? If the idea is to speed up service for riders south of Church and the V not G serves local stations north of Church.
[3. Rails in bad condition from Jay St. to 4th av. ]
Obviously not that bad as they are used in occasional GOs.
[I don't think that the interlocking is the problem, but then again, I know little about those tracks. ]
What I understand the interlocking is currently manualy operated.
[BTW: What is a solid state interlocking? What are the other interlockings? ]
Here's what Google gave me as the first result.
Look for descripption of SSI at http://www.indianbusinesspages.com/Railway/Solid%20State/
Arti
>>Why would it be essential? If the idea is to speed up service for riders south of Church and the V not G serves local stations north of Church.<<
But, Bergen is the last station before the 2 lines split. It would be a good idea to allow a transfer at that station. Especially since there are platforms down there.
[3. Rails in bad condition from Jay St. to 4th av. ]
>>Obviously not that bad as they are used in occasional GOs.<<
No they aren't. They haven't been used in a G/O since that fire that messed things up. The rails are not shiny, but rusted and closed. While the signals appear to be in good condition, the rails themselves are closed off at 4th av. With red Lamps just after the interlocking. Even the Jay St. Put-in F's during the evening rush have to switch over to the Local tracks at 4th av. If they want to use those tracks, they will have to be completely replaced.
>>What I understand the interlocking is currently manualy operated.<<
That's crazy. Not what you said, but what the TA does. They have the express tracks closed off even though they could be manually operated.
They have the express tracks closed off even though they could be manually operated.
To paraphrase an old Peter Sellers' routine: "They could be operated manually or once a year." :-)
Perhaps when all the r143'S are up and running, it would be possible.
These statistics are interesting - and useful:
1. If any line deserves peak express service, it's the Culver line. Maybe this could be accomplished by extending the V to Kings Highway during peak hours as an express from Jay St., or terminating the F at Church Ave. during peak yours, and replaing it by the V, operating express between Jay and Church, then local to Coney Island.
These statistics are certainly interesting and useful. They are not sufficiently complete for proving this assertion.
For example, you do have not factored in the current service levels for each of these lines. As a point of information the Brighton trains each has runs a 6-8 minute rush hour headway (for a 3-4 minute combined), whereas the Culver runs a at 4-6 minute rush hour headways (north of Kings Hwy). So the combined max Brighton service is 20 tph and the combined max Culver service is 15 tph. Using the Brighton as a baseline, we see that the Culver has 75% (15/20) the service level and 71% (74,411/105,115) the passenger level with the current routing.
The second missing parameter is the load level. This would measure how adequately (or inadequately) current service levels meet current demand. If current load levels are on the order of 60%, then service should be transferred to other lines where the service levels are double. On the other hand, service levels of 100% or greater would indicate that the entire Southern District deserves increased service.
The third missing paramter is the distribution of demand among the various stations. If 70% of the passengers on the Culver came from the stations between Jay and Church, then a 50-50 express/local split, would be a service disaster.
There are some ideals that one should try to achieve through scheduling. Two of these ideals are equalization of load levels and matching headways for interconnecting lines. Achieving these ideals is complicated by the fact that most of the Southern District services provide service in the Bronx and Queens. Often, these dual purpose lines have confilcts between their uptown service demands and their Southern District service demands. Things were much simpler before Chrystie Street.
David, thanks for the very interesting statistics. It is quite clear that the Brighton has almost as many riders as the West End + Sea Beach + 4th Av. together. Two of those three 4th Av. services operate over the weekend. It seems to me quite justified, from this fact and your statistics, that the Brighton should have two services, express and local, over the weekend, too.
At least they should bring back Brighton Exp on Saturdays. As far as I can remember there NEVER was Brighton Exp on Sundays, except the Summer Sunday Franklin lines in the early 50s/
I have never run into evidence of a regular Sunday Brighton Express that ran into the City, but the Franklins ran for three or four months a year.
Each express station on the Brighton had a lighted sign with panels. The top said "EXPRESS RUNNING" the middle said "TO CITY" and the bottom said "TO FRANKLIN AVENUE"
( Waffle on above--the middle indication might have been "TO MANHATTAN"--I've never seen a picture of one of the signs, and it's been near a half-century since I saw it in person )
Wow, Paul, I would love to have seen those in action. They certainly would be useful even today.
If I remember correctly the signs said TO CITY and on the other side From City, Express and Local I don t remember saying Franklin,
Bob, I believe you're thinking of the signs that were at the top of station staircases that blinked when a train was coming. These said TO CITY and FROM CITY.
The signs I'm describing were at platform level. At Church Avenue, the sign was placed between the express tracks at the point where the partial tunnel opened up to the sky between 18th and 19th.
The signs were in a box with indications as I described. They were backlighted to indicate the service running. The side facing the southbound platform view showed the indication EXPRESS RUNNING only.
Another variable was a big wooden sign on the southbound Prospect Park platform, broadside. Wooden flaps on the sign said TRAINS TO BRIGHTON BEACH AND CONEY ISLAND with an arrow pointing to the track from DeKalb. On those magical summer sundays when Franklin specials ran, the flaps were lifted to reveal a sign saying CONEY ISLAND TRAINS with arrows pointing to both tracks.
For those who don't know about it: Page 101 July RR Model Crafstman mag: Bottom of the Red Caboose ad. entire page ad..believe it or not N scale brass R32"s...bastante dinero [$$$] but worth taking a look at. Also N gage or HO R46; HO Rl-9, LIRR MP54 arch roof; IRT SMEE's of several types in HO. Ad doesn't say what size the R62's are.Red Caboose, 23 W 45 NYC. [I used to work there when it was Carmen Webster's Model RR Equip. Corp; Dec 64 until TA appointment in 5/65]
The only R-62's I've seen are in N-scale; I believe Image Replicas and one other company sell them.
I saw the R32's in N gauge at a Reenberg trainshow a couple of months ago in Somerset. Very Nice, but I wouldn't even ask the price.
As I have said in other thread, if Concor or someone can mass-produce RDC's, why not a NYC subway car.
The only problem for the manufacturer's is Choices Choices Choices! Enough to make a Skiczoid nuts. However making the cars in kit form may help and the new computer aided mold cutting my reduce the initial costs.Maybe one very popular car from each line Already have R 1/9 then maybe BMT Standard and IRT Lo V's Maybe it can be done
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Think it was $400 per pair in the ad; one motor car, one trailer.
When I had more ambition I built about 80 rapid transit coaches and commuter coaches {New York Central steel ex-mainline cars} in S scale, still have about 55 of them. A whole lot cheaper but I never did get the knack for doing modern sculptured designs like CTA, or R40's.
Now that I've started in HO as well I'm thinking of doing the whole mess over in HO and selling off the S fleet but would I ever finish all those trains again?? I HAVE some of the components made up already for High V's, Low V's and Manhattan MUDC's in HO.
It is odd that there haven't been low priced subway cars; they claim there isn't enough market for Athearn style things but then so much of the population lives in cities you'd think there would be.
Look at the BART and WMATA cars in the Walther's catalog. They look quite good for the money (HO) if you're not looking for specific types and would make a nice addition for a generic transit line on a layout, especially the WMATA ones. [IMHO BART is ugly].
Why HO? O scale is 1/64th...makes nicer third rail shoes :)
O scale is NOT 1/64th.
O scale is approximately 1/48th. S scale is 1/64th.
Actually I do like the S size better..especially for rapid transit cars; all mine are in the 47-51 foot variety and they do show nicely.I should have built an R1-9 set but avoided doing the bigger cars so they wouldn't compete size wise with the AF pass. cars which are not scale length.
The only reason I went into HO at all was because some of the things I wanted like more diesels especially SD40's, and modern freight cars were available at reasonable prices. I will not pay $300-400 for a diesel loco or even steam when I can have good ones in Ho for $30-70.
Maybe I should finish the HO subway cars I started and put them up for sale; I really am happier with the S Size; which as another poster has corrected...S is 1/64; O is 1/48.
So they share trackage with American Flyer..who cares! There is an el on my layout and both run on it.
Anyone looking for low-cost modelling ideas feel free to contact me.
Yeah but you would need lots and lots of space to fit a O scale layout.
I think what MTH is doing is on the right track. They came out with the R-42 sets a few years ago, but they weren't to scale and they had lots of detailing errors. But from the photos I've seen, the new R-21 models are VERY accurately detailed (with the exception of the chasis and underbody, which appear to be the identical parts used in the R-42 models). It sounds like they want to introduce models that use interchangeable parts and toolings, so that they can offer a variety of modesl at fairly reasonable prices. Supposedly, they are going to issue an R-17 and possibly an R-33.
I would imagine that the "Premiere Line" R-32 model (which uses a scale-length chasis, unlike the R-42 model) will set the stage for other accurately-tooled "B" division models.
I think what MTH is doing is on the right track. They came out with the R-42 sets a few years ago, but they weren't to scale and they had lots of detailing errors. But from the photos I've seen, the new R-21 models are VERY accurately detailed (with the exception of the chasis and underbody, which appear to be the identical parts used in the R-42 models). It sounds like they want to introduce models that use interchangeable parts and toolings, so that they can offer a variety of models at fairly reasonable prices. Supposedly, they are going to issue an R-17 and possibly an R-33.
I would imagine that the upcoming "Premiere Line" R-32 model (which uses a scale-length chasis, unlike the R-42 model) will set the stage for other accurately-tooled "B" division models.
There has been another dead man found on the "D" train. This time it was on an uptown "D" train where someone reported an unconscious person on an uptowm "D" train at the W. 4th Street station. Go to http://1010wins.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_944736317_html for the story on the dead man on the "D" train.
BMTJeff
The "D" line must be the dead line.
It seems to be that way in recent months on the "D" (Dead) train.
Well D does stand for death, as i personally can attest. On one of my many railfan trips on the D in the Bronx in 9/86, an old man sitting next to me (pre GOH R42's) dropped dead. I thooght he fell asleep, and when fe fell on me i gently nudged him back up, figuring he'd wake up and apologize. Instead, he fell foward onto the floor. After some screaming (not by me), the conductor was notified and we were held at the next stop until help arrived (i believe it was 182-183rd. St.)
I'm sure grateful nothing like that ever happened to me. Likewise that in my years of operating both on NYCT and in the West that I never hit or ran over anyone but had a few near-misses.
Did seeing a man die next to you leave you in any shock or a while?
I seem to remember a Transit Museum exhibit a few years back. It focused on the D route as a metaphor for the cycle of life, starting at Coney Island (children at play); progressing through Brooklyn College (education), Prospect Park (recreation), midtown Manhattan (work), and Central Park and Yankee Stadium (more recreation); and ending near Woodlawn cemetery (death).
What you have said about the "D" route (It focused on the D route as a metaphor for the cycle of life,
starting at Coney Island (children at play); progressing through Brooklyn College (education), Prospect Park (recreation),
midtown Manhattan (work), and Central Park and Yankee Stadium (more recreation); and ending near Woodlawn cemetery
(death).) sums it all up.
BMTJeff
Slow speed of the R68s. It takes so long to reach your destination you'll die before you get there.
lol !! ??
that was the 5:53 AM D from Stillwell. Body was removed at 59th St.
Wow... this week the 6 Avenue Line has been plagued in general.
Tuesday
AM rush door problem at DeKalb Avenue on a Q at 7:30 AM
Wheel lockup on the D at 1:30 PM
Thursday
3 of my friends and I were victims of Petit Larceny on the Q at 3:30 PM
"Thursday
3 of my friends and I were victims of Petit Larceny on the Q at 3:30 PM "
What happened???
It was after school. We got on at DeKalb Avenue on the Q toward Brighton Beach. At Church Avenue, 3 little 10 year olds along with 2 other 20 year olds got on and went through the end doors and started jumping around and screaming and when they got to the end of the car, they saw us and the 3 little ones started patting us down in the pockets. They took 2 of my friends wallets and went through them. They took their money and Student MetroCard. The 2 big ones were watching the doors and for other people. When the train got to Newkirk, we were unable to get off because of the 2 big ones. Then they continued to feel everyone up for more cash and then shortly before Kings Highway, they moved down to the next car but gave everythign back except for one of my friends' 50 cents. 1 of them get off at Kings Highway so it was 3 left. Then 2 more left at Sheepshead Bay and I got off at Brighton Beach. To my dismay, they did also. I was careful of them not seeing me. But they got out of the station as well walking toward the direction I walk eating up fruits from food stores. Throwing pits at each other in the street. Eventually I got home.
>>> They took 2 of my friends wallets and went through them. They took their money and Student MetroCard. The 2 big ones were watching the doors and for other people <<<
What you describe is not petty larceny. It is Felony Robbery along with Conspiracy to commit robbery. It should have been reported to the police as soon as possible. The crime was committed at the time they took the wallets, even if they later returned the contents. Until these persons are caught they will continue to do this sort of thing, but escalating the seriousness of the crimes.
Tom
I couldn't agree more.
To robbery add kidnapping, false imprisonment (not letting you off the train), assault and battery (unwanted contact with intent to harm).
This deserves serious jail time.
Where's Bernie Goetz when we need him? Is he running as Rudy's successor? Seems to fit ...
Seriously though, I took a bullet myself about one inch below the right-hand (as I see it) "jewel" ... that's what convinced ME to move upstate. Up here, everybody knows how to (Sam Kinnison voice) *AIM!*
Still, file a complaint ... if nothing else, it'll erode the stats.
Why give them serious Jail time. Three hots and a cot and the aclu it not cost effective. These individuals should be incouraged to step in front of the next train as it just enters the station Off course radio the MM to close eyes and have head down and set the breaks after the thud. That way they will learn their lesson and not go to the NY state University for learning advanced criminal behavior ie. Singsing and Attica.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
That is pretty serious. I'm suprised nobody tried to stop them. And right in the afternoon. I carry an alarm on me, I don't know if it would've done any good in that situation.
I would've probably pulled the emergency brake, so they couldn't escape. There's no way those punks should've gotten away.
I also try to ride in the front or conductor's car, where TA personnel are right there. A friend of mine who used to ride the subways years ago said avoid it when the kids let out. Of course back then they let out at one time, now thanks to new rules, they can be dismissed as early as 1pm all the way through 4pm. Much harder to avoid it now.
The car was sneeking a peak the whole time. The C/R was 2 cars away. And when they moved two cars up to the C/R, the C/R was with a student. I peaked over and observed them jumping up and down and hanging on the bars swinging. When I got off, I heard a rather large passenger say to the C/R "Don't worry, I got your back next time."
I'm glad I don't usually have to worry about things like that. Usually us Stuy kids have even more reason to be worried. But I'm fairly tall for a 16-year-old, and generally people avoid bothering me. Plus, the fact that I wear loose fitting clothing, and have my hair gorwn out in a 'fro make me look even better.
R68A-5200: Generally, if you dress like a thug, you can get away with a lot.
>>Plus, the fact that I wear loose fitting clothing, and have my hair gorwn out in a 'fro make me look even better.<<
Correction, bigger
Well at 5'2 (and that's pushing it) I look puny, so my only defense is an alarm or mace (or kicking them u-no-where).
It doesn't help in the dating scene either, even the short 5 foot women want to be with tall guys.
I'm 25 but look more like 17 or 18, lets just say women look at me as a boy not a man.
That's enough ranting, I need a girlfriend... bad. Yeah one month and 5 internet dating sites later I'm still alone. :-(
How about some martial-arts training to improve your conditioning and give you a little confidence?
I have cerebral palsy and am up to a blue-belt in Tae Kwon Do. And I'm married :-)
I guess that you can feel sorry for Qtraindash7 since he is rather puny. I saw him on the April Fools' Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred and he is PUNY. Although I'm far from large also but I'm no where near as small as Qtraindash7. I manage not to look like a target on the subways by dressing in a faded denim jacket, faded jeans, unkempt hair though not dirty looking and a beard that isn't kept that neat so I have a rough looking appearence. During the summer I'll wear shorts like almost everyone else who can get away with it and I still look like an unlikely target since I don't look like I have much money. I'm also not the tallest at 5'9" though I don't think that a little punk would want to bother me with my rough appearence. As a matter of fact some people on the subway are afraid of me.
BMTJeff
Yeah one month and 5 internet dating sites later I'm still alone.
It's probably not your fault in any way. I read not long ago that most Internet dating sites have a severe male/female imbalance, with something like 10 men for every woman.
No disrespect intended, but...
How many times do we have to hear this? It's TOTALLY off-topic and diverts attention from postings that actually talk about on-topic issues.
David
No disrespect intended, but...
How many times do we have to hear this? It's TOTALLY off-topic and diverts attention from postings that actually talk about on-topic issues.
Well David, if your surname were Pirmann I'd pay attention to your comment, but it presumably isn't, and I won't.
Actually, my comment was directed at the issue (one poster's height and his perceived problems with the opposite sex, which has been talked about on this board ad nauseum and which has nothing to do with trains in New York or anywhere else) in general, not Mr. Rosa's posting. I meant to respond to the posting Mr. Rosa responded to, not to Mr. Rosa's response, and I apologize for my error.
David
Actually, my comment was directed at the issue (one poster's height and his perceived problems with the opposite sex, which has been talked about on this board ad nauseum and which has nothing to do with trains in New York or anywhere else) in general, not Mr. Rosa's posting. I meant to respond to the posting Mr. Rosa responded to, not to Mr. Rosa's response, and I apologize for my error.
Understood.
As far as Qtraindash7's comments are concerned, well, they are a bit off-topic, and indeed have been discussed at great length, but as far as I'm concerned they're harmless enough and don't detract from the "Subtalk experience," so to speak.
People who post here, are, after all, human, and occasionally would like to share feelings about themselves not connected with trains. Maybe they are looking for support among Internet comrades.
Instead of swinging an axe, offer some compassion and moral support. The poster in question will get back to transit topics soon enough, on his (or her) own.
Please note that first reply to this post is not directed at Peter Rosa. It is in agreement with Peter.
I wonder what will plague the 6th Ave. line during this upcoming week?
BMTJeff
I think that this will be post No. 225,000
Funny how "anniversary" posts such as 225,000 and 250,000 etc. are completely worthless, time wasting efforts.
I can see Jeff's tombstone:
Here lies BMTJeff. He couldn't boil a pot of water, but he did have post 225,000!!!
I own post #100,000, and it was a legit post about the R68. I had no idea I was making this post until someone pointed it out.
Those "anniversary" posts can be a lot of fun even if they seem to be a waste of time.
BMTJeff
Ahhh, now I see why we have the extra humorous posts today! -Nick
O.K., now here's Johnny Olson, tell BMTJeff what he has won.
Sure Bob; Jeff, you've just won a complete set of Redbird Subway cars, also a 13" color television set from the Spiegel Catalog, Spiegel of Chicago, Ill, plus a year's supply of Turtle Wax to keep those Redbirds looking brand new, and last, but not least, a year's supply of Rice-A-Roni, The san francisco treat. Now back to you, Bob.
I'll certainly enjoy the "prizes" that I won for posting the 225,000th message on SubTalk.
BMTJeff
I was ROTFLMAO, and was about to mention that this fascination with "anniversary posts" belonged with a collection of unpunched, expired transfers when I had to pick myself back off the floor to post this.
B.F.D.
Does anyone know if any R142s ran yesterday? And if so, how many, because i didn't see any yesterday.
Yes, they did. I know that one was running.
Yes, I saw at least two sets on the 2:
6321-25 together with 6346-50
6421-30.
There were three sets running last night (early this morning) I didn't get car numbers, mostly because they passed me going in the opposite direction, with the express tracks between us.
yesterday i saw 5 sets. 6301-10,6311-20,6326-35,6411-20,6421-30 i rode on 6411-20. man does that need to be washed or what!
"There were three sets running last night (early this morning"
Does the MTA run any late-night (like 3 AM) R-142s/R142As, or we'll we have to wait for more trains to arrive before that happens? -Nick
Yes they do. Both the R142's and 142a's run 24 hours.
The slant face R-40's are finally in HO-Scale model form. After various companies promissing them and not coming through, we are actually producing them for a limited time. The R-40's will come in a two car set with one motorized car so you can run them on your layout. What's more they will be painted and come with a decal sheet so you can decorate them for any line you wish! They will sell for $350 for a limited time! So obtain your R-40 today by contacting us sales@collect-corner.net
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
Today, while riding my rerouted F (Queens Local - 63rd Street - Broadway Express), the conductor made the following announcements upon arriving at the stations in question:
21st Street/Queensbridge - "This is 21st Street/Queensbridge, the last stop in Queens. Next stop is Roosevelt Island."
Roosevelt Island - "This is Roosevelt Island. Next stop is 63rd Street and Lexington Avenue in Manhattan."
63rd & Lexington - "This is 63rd Street and Lexington Avenue, the first stop in Manhattan"
Are we supposed to believe that Roosevelt Island has suddenly become a borough unto itself? Even with a Manhattan zip code (10044), two Manhattan area codes (212/646), and residents who serve on Manhattan juries?
If the conductor had been referring to the ISLAND of Manhattan, then the 63rd/Lex announcement would have been correct. However, he was obviously referring to the BOROUGH of Manhattan, which consists of the Islands of Manhattan, Liberty (part), Ellis (part), Governors, Roosevelt, Wards, and Randalls.
Liberty (part)
Liberty (all).
You forgot Marble Hill, and Mill Rock and U Thant Islands.
I stand corrected...
Liberty Island - I remember that New Jersey got the landfill part of Ellis Island (of course, the landfill had come from Manhattan), but they either didn't get any of Liberty Island or forgot to try.
Marble Hill (zip 10463, area codes 718/347) - While it's still part of the BOROUGH of Manhattan, it may or may not be part of Bronx COUNTY - both have been claimed, and residents use the resulting confusion to avoid jury duty in both jurisdictions.
Mill Rock and U Thant Islands - Where are they? Is either worth serving by subway? :-)
U Thant Island is that small piece of land opposite the UN just past the southern tip of Roosevelt Island.Ironically from what I heard and read is that it was formed by the sandhogs who were digging the Steinway Tubes in the 1890's.
U Thant Island is that small piece of land opposite the UN just past the southern tip of Roosevelt Island.Ironically from what I heard and read is that it was formed by the sandhogs who were digging the Steinway Tubes in the 1890's.
And formerly known as Belmont Island, presumably in honor of August.
U THant is a great little island which was a result of a tunnel excavation by a guy named Steinway (no not the 7 42nd st tube) but an now unused tunnel, its great, can only be seen when u go to the southernmost point on roosevelt island beyond renwick abandoned hospital, i have been there many a time, requires a lot of sneaking, u also pas the emergency exit from 53rd st tunnel, im sure railfans dont go on expiditions like I do.
Really I thought U.Thant Is. was from construction of the tunnels the 7 now uses.
Yeah it would be cool to check out where the emergency exits for the 53rd street tunnel are. I've never been to Roosevelt Island. Is it an OK place to walk around?
(Is it an OK place to walk around? )
Aside from deserted areas, I've found that there are few places in NYC that are not OK to walk around in daylight.
Thank you soo much for putting that out.
its plenty ok, I will be organizing a tour, E-mail me if you are interested.
Ahem.. what you forgot to mention is that you will be organizing the tour with me. Just thought I'd mention that, since I got you in.
Really I thought U.Thant Is. was from construction of the tunnels the 7 now uses.
It is from construction of the Steinway (7) tunnels. It's way south of 53rd Street but very close to 42nd.
Thats not what I have read on www.forgottenNY.com
Funny, what Peter Rosa said is exactly the same as the account
on forgotten-ny. What part didn't you get? The island is
from the excavation of the Steinway tubes, which were originally
for trolley cars, and later became the #7 line. I still think
of it by its original name of Belmont Island.
Does the 53rd Street and or 60th street Tunnel go under Roosevelt Island. How hard/expensive would it be to add a station on the 53rd street or 60th street line. Would the grade of the tracks allow the station(s)
Marble Hill is in Manhattan Borough AND New York County. The two are co-terminous. ALL boroughs in NYC are co-terminous with their counties.
Marble Hill is NOT, however, on Manhattan Island, or even "postal city" of "New York, NY". THAT's where it's called the Bronx.
:-) Andrew
The dividing line between The Bronx and Manhattan is 225st. So basically the MN Marble Hill Sta. is in Manhattan but Marble Hill Ave. is in the Bronx.
No. The dividing line is between 228th and 230th. Marble Hill Avenue is in Manhattan.
Ahem ... I *lived* there ... check erroneous maps - 230th *is* the divisor ... I would imagine volunteering for the assembly district polling places in a more tender time would set that straight - AD's are tightly specified ... no offense ... the line runs right up the middle of the street. South is Manhattan (including Marble Hill PJ's) and the north side of the street is DA Bronx ...
Either way, I only posted to say that Marble Hill Avenue is ENTIRELY in Manhattan.
No problemo ... since I first came here over a year ago, the insistence upon gospel fact was a lower standard than it's become lately, just wanted to do my bit for the "accuracy squad" ... heh.
Actually, the dividing line is just south of w. 230 St -- where Spuyten Duyvil Creek used to run. On the south side of 230 and Kingsbridge Ave, (exact site of the old King's Bridgh), the street sign reads Kingsbridge Ave. --i.e., still the Bronx. On the north corner of the next block south -- 228th St. -- the same street is labeled Marble Hill Ave. That avenue changes to Kingsbridge Ave. mid-block, just south of 230th, where the border is.
Could be ... I can only account for the neighborhood up to the 1960's, prior to JFK High School being built on the old NYC yards. Prior to that from Broadway headed west was the Marble Hill Projects on the south side of 230th (Manhattan election district), then a park that ran from the edge of the projects to Kinsgbridge Avenue - I volunteered there and it was under the Manhattan borough portion of the Parks Dept (not Bronx) then on the other side of Kinsbridge Avenue running all the way to Riverdale Avenue was a huge warehouse facility owned by Walters that was later torn down. There were no residences on the south side of 230th other than the Marble Hill PJ's. But on the maps I remember from the time, the dotted line ran ALONG 230th St. That's how I remember it though for what it's worth. I lived ON 230th for several years, across from the park between Kingsbridge and Tibbets Avenues.
It would make sense though that the entire stretch of projects, park and warehouse was probably the old riverbed though.
I guess that is why I had a zip code of 10463 when I lived on Marble Hill ave, and we all know The Bronx zip codes start with 104 and northern Manhattan (Inwood) is 10034.
Yeah, the post office didn't go for that "Manhattan" rap ... after all, 10463 was "greater Riverdale" ...
Actually, it goes way back, decades ago -- the original boundary of the borough of Manhattan (New York County) was the Harlem River. It is NOT following its original route....the original route can be seen on some maps that show the delineation of the county lines.
I'm not sure of the year, but the present "canal" shortening/straightening the river (i.e. giving it the official name, seen on some maps "Harlem River and Ship Canal") was done to aid navigation.
Hence, the fact that the river now cuts a swath straight across just below 225th Street, causes a lot of confusion as to what borough/county the folks of Marble Hill neighborhood are really in. Even when I grew up in the Bronx, we assumed it was really the Bronx, when in fact it is New York County/borough of Manhattan.
With the regards to the exact dates, the only information I have to go on is old photograph records. Perhaps somebody can provide more detailed information.
In 1893, work on the new route of the Harlem River had just been finished. The channel was completely excavated and blasted through at the future Marble Hill/Inwood neighbourhood boundary.
Yet the old route of the Harlem River was left in place at this time. Would this have left Marble Hill as an island? I am not sure when the old Harlem River was filled in, but I would imagine it was soon thereafter.
MATT-2AV
New York Central filled in the "former creek" and turned the space into freight yards. That space is now occupied by JFK (don't remember if it was a High School of not) but it was yard up until the school was built on the former land to the south of 230th street. Yards (and any sign of them) are LONG gone ... somewhere in the late 60's ...
According to an issue of "Time Out New York" from about a month ago in an article about affordable neighborhoods,the creek was filled in 1914.
Might be ... sorry, though I'm officially declared a "subtalk fossil," I wasn't around for that roadwork. :)
There are still 2 signs of the old freight yard. There is a stub track braching off from the MetroNorth mainline between Marble Hill & Spuyten Duyvil Stations that used to continue to the yard. And the old Kingsbridge Freight Depot (with some NYCRR lettering on it) still exists as the U-Haul bldg. on 230th St.
Yep ... that'll be it. West of (Corlear I think) was also tracks and there were a few tracks that wrapped around and ran parallel to 230th in front of that old warehouse. What is probably the UHaul thingy would be the secondary building behind the main one that was mostly on the corner of 238th and Kingsbridge ... I haven't been there since soemwhere around 1968 so I'm sure it's changed.
The Harlem river begins where it bends southward, where it meets the Tibbet's Brook (underground) The east-west section WAS the Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The Harlem River Ship Canal was built in 1895, but the creek was not filled in until about 15 years later, making Marble Hill an island for a few years.
And the funny part is that the Harlem River is not a river at all. Like the East River, it's an arm of the Atlantic Ocean.
Like the East River, it's an arm of the Atlantic Ocean.
No it isn't. It's a real river. It's the same river as the Tibbet's Brook which starts in Yonkers and used to be the Saw Mill River.
Maybe it used to be a real river, but since the ship channel was built, it's essentially a tidal strait.
>>> since the ship channel was built, it's essentially a tidal strait. <<<
Although the East River is a strait connecting Long Island Sound to the Atlantic Ocean, the Harlem River is really an estuary of the Hudson River.
Tom
Yeah, but we were told once on a boat tour out of Kingston that the Hudson below that area isn't a true river either but rather another estuary.
In a decision by the U.S. Supremem Court back in the '70s, it was declared that the Harlem River/ East River was a secondary mouth of the Hudson River. As a result, Long Island is essentially considered part of mainland NY state, and therefore NY Harbor Pilots are allowed to pilot ships into Block Island, RI harbors because they are closer than mainland Rhode Island. So sayeth the Court (and if anyone is so inclined, go look up the decision).
Yep, the Hudson is actually a "tidal basin" ... it's salt water up to ABOUT Beacon (the line moves) and above there, it remains a fresh water tidal basin until about Albany/Troy ... what's amusing up here is that the Hudson is maybe 300 feet across from side to side at the Port of Albany. It's a stream above the general Albany area at Waterford.
Yep, the Hudson is actually a "tidal basin" ... it's salt water up to ABOUT Beacon (the line moves) and above there, it remains a fresh water tidal basin until about Albany/Troy ... what's amusing up here is that the Hudson is maybe 300 feet across from side to side at the Port of Albany. It's a stream above the general Albany area at Waterford.
I've also heard that the Hudson is the only fjord in North America. Possibly that term and "tidal basin" are used more or less interchangeably.
That would be accurate to me at least. But the "experts" are INSISTENT that the word "tidal basin" be used. Must be discrimination against Norwegians since it IS a fjord as well by definition. :)
Yeah. If you ever pass the Hudson River in the Adirondack region, it's barely even a stream. It's hilarious to think that this is the same proud Hudson River of the NYC area. I remember during a family trip in the Adirondacks, my dad joked about us crossing into the "Jersey Side".
:-) Andrew
Heh. Not much other than trailer parks on the "New York" side of the Hudson here - everything that's "happening" is on the "Joisey" side up here. And yes, the Hudson *is* a creek up here. :)
Maybe it used to be a real river, but since the ship channel was built, it's essentially a tidal strait.
The brook still flows into the river.
EASY MISTAKE TO MAKE!
As far as its bridge conection to the rest of the world, Roosevelt Island might as well be part of Queens. The DOT bus route serving it is a Queens route. The NYPD and FDNY have placed it under Queens Boro Commands, even in the Subway, it's part of Transit District 20 rather than District 4. So why wasn't the drawbridge to Roosevelt Island built from Manhattan in the first place? I guess it was built by the same people who connected Rikers Island with Queens rather than the Bronx, which it is part of, despite an East Elmhurst mailing address.
As far as its bridge conection to the rest of the world, Roosevelt Island might as well be part of Queens. The DOT bus route serving it is a Queens route. The NYPD and FDNY have placed it under Queens Boro Commands, even in the Subway, it's part of Transit District 20 rather than District 4. So why wasn't the drawbridge to Roosevelt Island built from Manhattan in the first place?
A bridge from Manhattan would have to have been much longer.
Not to mention that the land on the Manhattan side would be more expensive.
Actually with the apartments on Roosevelt Island the ones facing "the city"are more expensive than the ones facing Queens.
The bridge was built when only lunatics and severly ill people lived on Welfare Island (which it was called until 1972).
The bridge was built when only lunatics and severly ill people lived on Welfare Island
Today they live in the subway.
That must be why the subway was extended to Roosevelt Island.
The fact that Roosevelt Island is served by a Queens bus route is irrelevant. Queens Surfaces' QBX1 operates mostly as a shuttle between the Pelham Bay subway terminal and Co-op City, which of course are entirely within the borough of the Bronx. Why the TA doesn't have its own Bronx-based route to cover this section and have the QBX1 run strictly as a Flushing-Pelham Bay route is a mystery.
Many bus routes go into boroughs other than their 'home' borough, but that's really for Bustalk.
When the drawbridge between Roosevelt Island and Long Island City was built in 1955, there was no place on Manhattan's east side to which a bridge could be built (the shore was completely occupied by the FDR Drive, high-rises and hospitals), whereas there was loads of vacant land on Queens side between the warehouses and Con Ed plant.
While Roosevelt is considered Manhattan by voting, zip code (it's funny to see an address '585 Main Street, New York, New York 10044) and school zoning, it's police and fire service are provided by Queens companies. It's certainly a lot easier to respond to emergencies over a short drawbridge than the roundabout vehicular route required from Manhattan.
According to the Rand McNally Road Atlas, Roosevelt Island is in Manhattan, with the New York/ Queens County line being the Eastern shore of the East River.
Some things come with value, they can be moved, value unchanged.
Time is fleeting, what does the hapless transient do when damage soils his way of passage? Time is lost.
The agency, they provide conveyance. If time is lost, can it be returned? It is not lost forever.
Funding is gone, never returned. but the time, is it returned? The house of the courier, they shall mark the time. The ones on the path where the Jays roost, near the land of the justice of Kings, they shall see the mark of the courier. what path would they take?
One keeps his time, but how?
NOITULOVER EHT NIOJ
Since nobody managed to make sense of my insanity and respond to my message, I'll word it in plain English:
When an unlimited ride card fails, and it is mailed in, how do they give you credit for it? Do they send you an unlimited ride card for a wierd number of days? They don't send a cash refund, and somehow sending a pay-per-ride MC is wrong.
What the hell is wrong with you? (=
Dan
Hey! I was trying a new flavor in posting messages. Maybe instead of making stupid comments you can either
Figure out what it means
Read the explanation
Ignore it.
I could, but I prefer stupid comments.
Dan
Anyone have a refernce to a LIRR Track Map? Thank you.
I do,,,call me at 914 668 9218
--you would have to pick it up
Steve (Mon to Fridays)
Have a look here: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm
John.
That's a route map. I think what the original poster was looking for was a track map showing all track details such as interlockings, sidings, multiple main tracks, etc.
I have a track map,,given to the students in training
Please contact me direct at 914 668 9218
Steve
I thought about something interesting today. My Favorite Railroad and Subway cars have computers. I really like the R142A, it has a computer. I like both the Genesis GE and the EMD DE30. they also have computers. But just what does the computer do for the Engineer or Motorman?
It replaces older, more unreliable non-solid state equipment.
What do relays, switches and cams do for the engineer or motorman?
Right!! just what you need more useless OVER HIGH TECH junk & crap , more $$%^^&*#!!#%^**** etc...to breakdown!!
@ ( like some of these new automobiles today )
They show the speed, show how much fuel is left, etc.
Having run some of the most modern locomotives I can also tell you that you cut your brake controls in on a computer..no more simple opening and closing air cocks; you set brakes electronically with the simulated sound of air at the console...likewise power. But then even the R44 had that feature years ago.
Adjusting brake pipe pressure for differenet kind of train or terrain,likewise done by the computer.
Speed, amperage, brake line pressures all show up on the screen. I hate it. It was so much simpler to look at gages especially moving at speed.
Oh yes, diagnostics on loco performance and failures also stored on computer. I'm sure there's a lot I omitted.
i dislike computer trains because they have erriors you be
in be danger.
And in be you be illiterate
Not to mention hearing the REAL train instead of some silly sound blaster type immitation ... The EMD's really do insulate you from the rails, n'est ce pas? That's one of the things I *despise* about modern locos ... you might as well be PHONING IN ... much like modern jet fighters ... it's a video game that President Shrub could be working.
Just like a car except complicated.
I would like to point out that many modern airplanes could not operate without their computers. Computers are essential to the safe operation of the Airbus A320, A340, new technology 737, 747-400, 757, 777. The F-22, F-117 and B-2 bombers would crash without computer input - they achieve incredible maneuverability at the cost of instability, which computers then compendate for in real time. Air crews have become adept at using the new "glass cockpits;" I'm sure some of them bitched and moaned about it.
Computers can help train operation a lot - look at what the Japanese do (fuzzy logic, a form of AI, controlling brakes, for example). Train operators are as intelligent and capable as anyone else of "getting over it" and adapting, (and succeeding) to a digital cab.
Fuzzy logic is not a form of AI. Human equivalent would be nervous system to a brain.
Arti
"Fuzzy logic is not a form of AI. Human equivalent would be nervous system to a brain."
Many academics in the field accept fuzzy logic as a form of AI. Incidentally, a "neural net" is considered an AI application as well.
[Many academics in the field accept fuzzy logic as a form of AI. Incidentally, a "neural net" is considered an AI application as well. ]
You have probably misunderstood something. Fuzzy logic is a method to describe non-quantized values. In simpler terms to describe half truths. It can be used more accurately to describe real world situations than pure boolean logic and thus would be a more suitable to implement AI.
Arti
OK-thank you for clarifying. Yes, I agree.
So how would one implement fuzzy logic using modern technology?
Food for thought isn't it?
Arti
computers on trains ?? yea over high tech pile of new junk heaps that keeps on breakin' down !!!!
Even if I agree with you on how you feel about the R142 I can't help wondering why the equally high-tech C44-9w locomotives perform almost flawlessly, at least from my own personal experiences. Not that I liked running a train by a computer screen, I hated it, but they worked.
As I've said previously I wonder why NYCT and to some degree Amtrak get so much troubled equipment. (Not that they're alone but a lot of other systems and foreign rails seem to do OK with high-tech)
that why i don't trust computers!
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
June 2, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
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Todd sent this info:
As usual based on from street level, +/- 10feet
Broadway/E NY Complex
A-- 20 feet below
J-- 40 feet above
L-- 80 feet above
Metropolitan/Lorimer
L- 20 feet below
G- 40 feet below
125/Lex
Mezz---- 20 feet below
Uptown-- 35 feet below
Downtown-50 feet below
" . . . . WANTED, Any and all persons interested in STARTING and operating a new line (route) on the New York City Subway.
Please E-mail more info. . . . ."
How about starting the Brooklyn Street Railway Co. (BSR). I propose to use all existing SBK/NYCH and NY&A trackage for passenger service with existing R/T equipment. (We all can dream, now can't we...)
Nah ... if it ain't picks and shovels and DYNAMITE, you ain't gonna drag this sorry arse out of the deep woods to want to earn handles again ... been there, done that, wrecked the anticlimbers. :)
" . . . Like any state run road, the subway system is open to the public for investment; in other words I can buy the coach, the pay the state for the electricity, and the rail use; in effect 'MY RAILROAD' . Think about it a ride from Wall Street,on the #2 or #3 station streight to Howard Beach, or the MetroNorth's Yonkers station; on a car that isn't packed like a sardine can, T.V monitors, phones, snack cars, double-decker odservation cars ect.
My point being why wish, why think like child; ideas like this are the next genoration of mass transit design; the frist steps away from the sterile institution coaches and system . . . . Think about it. . . ."
Please more persuasion.
Arti
. . . This is a repeat of somthing I wrote earlier this week:
As you know New York City has been working on one subway line since the year 1927 and has not completed yet.
That line is 2nd Avenue subway. As you may or may not have known New York City subway was once privately owned and developed, but after the ' Great Depression ' and during World War II the subway fell under city and state control.
In the face of rising inflation, in relationship to the need to conserve energy within the New York City Power Pool; private individuals and companies have golden opportunity for investment and the planning , and development of the 2nd Avenue subway. With growing uncertainty in stocks, in the fluctuation of projected profits in technologies issues on the Commodities Exchange a golden opportunity is at hand to take control of certain aspects of the development of the 2nd Avenue subway to improve the mass transit intrastructure of the city of New York and for the gains of municipal improvement, environmental conservation and capital investment in a new railroad.
In the past 25 years new technologies and mass transportation has arisen the New York City transit authority, and the Metropolitan Transit Authority has clearly not taken advantage of; but for what ever reason the New York City Transit Authority like any other state-run institution operates with the gradation of a state-run institution. What 2nd Avenue subway needs a new and innovative ideas from the private sector.
I'm looking for interested parties, persons or companies would be interested in participating in planning and investing of the 2nd Avenue subway, and ultimately the 2nd Avenue Railroad Company to build; (promised in 1967) the Co-Op City line, the return of the 3rd Avenue 'El' in the Bronx, and an innovation of the 9th Avenue 'El' to serve the North Bronx from the Polo grounds.
[I'm looking for interested parties, persons or companies would be interested in participating in planning and investing of the 2nd Avenue subway, and ultimately the 2nd Avenue Railroad Company to build; (promised in 1967) the Co-Op City line, the return of the 3rd Avenue 'El' in the Bronx, and an innovation of the 9th Avenue 'El' to serve the North Bronx from the Polo grounds. ]
You do have some numbers to back up these claims, I hope?
Arti
To All Subtalkers,
Just wanted to let you know that I will be out west most of the summer, so you probably won't see me posting here much until mid to late August. I hope that all of you have a delightful summer, and when I return I'll hopefully have stories from riding the Cable Cars, Muni and B.A.R.T...since I will be in northern California.
Happy Summer,
Nick
Bring plenty of candles and enjoy the sea breeze.
thanks...will do! -Nick
If you in the harbor under the Golden Gate Bridge. I heard that SEELS live there. SO why don't you take a seel and swim with it.
Have a good time over there. And make shure to bring back photos for everyone at Subtalk.
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I got stuck outside of 110 street on the express track on the Lex. 1 hour! R-142 got messed up big time. Finally, we made it to 125th. I don't know what happened. I think the breaks went into emergency and they had to take some cars out. Anyone else on it? Happened about 5:00PM.
Would that make it a Kawasaki or Bombardier ?
I think the Kawasaki units are on Lex. (I'm not exactly sure). However, if it was the brakes going into emergency, it could have been a cord pulled, or an 'obstruction' on the tracks. Or, it could have been another problem in the testing of the R-142's. But weren't the bombardier cars the ones with the problems?
Sounds like an R142 to me.
...Squeaky, Whistling Brakes, anyone??
Yeah, from what I know our almighty saviors, The Redbirds, have them.
brand new JUNK & it breaks down worse ! he he he ...
yawn....
give it up man. its over. (always act like the redbirds ain't crap either) redbirds are leaving. problems aren't gonna stop them now.
they will be around long enough for me to ge some good videos of them this fall !!! LOL !!! he he he he !!
of course this fall but they will start to leave starting the fall. and after a while you will put the new york city transit system on you list of most disliked subway systems. thats if you have such a list.
unless i can maintain a list of motormen who will allow mw to shoot thru the railfan window inside the cab like i did last year
on the # 6 !! a tranjsverse cab ( ugh! ) r 62 !! .........................................................................................!!!
Dont worry my videos will be transfered to the new DVD format and remain a permanent place in history !!!
I we will be there for the 2004 100 year celebration for sure !! & hopefully on a museum train ( shooting on video again )
LOL ....... he he he he he he
unless i can maintain a list of motormen who will allow me to shoot thru the railfan window inside the cab like i did last year
on the # 6 !! a tranjsverse cab ( ugh! ) r 62 !! .........................................................................................!!!
Dont worry my videos will be transfered to the new DVD format and remain a permanent place in history !!!
I we will be there for the 2004 100 year celebration for sure !! & hopefully on a museum train ( shooting on video again )
LOL ....... he he he he he he
Sure, they were on my Manhattan-bound Redbird 2 train Saturday afternoon!
if it is on the lexington ave. line, it is the Kawasaki's. the Bombardier R-142 are running on the 7th ave. line.
So You where on that R142A. The train was the 4:46 Brooklyn Bridge to Pelham the train had a Brake pipe rupture. I was operating the No.6 behind it and was turned back for downtown service.
Because of that 142A there was no uptown service on the Lex line from 86 Street to 149 GC on the No.4,5 and to 3Ave on the No.6.
Now back to the brake pipe rupture. The T/O had to await supervision and the train had to do other then head car operation meaning operating from the 6th car.
That happens on Redbirds too. Once I was waiting on a 7 express in the afternoon at Times Square when it was taken out of service due to a brake rupture. With one of the two tracks at TS out, 7 train service got bottlenecked pretty fast.
What causes brake pipe ruptures ?
Excessive lifting by the back instead of the legs. Sorry, just couldn't help myself there. Generally it's caused by bad fittings or clamps on the connectors, worn hoses or knicks on the pipes ...
On new equipment? How about lack of QC at the factory?
New pipe can have gouges in it too. Could be poor work, could have been a single piece of gravel kicked up from the tracks and landing just right. Spit happens too. :)
So that's why I couldn't get any uptown service from Grand Central Saturday! I went there to see if I could catch a ride on the R142A. When I saw a 4 train on the uptown express track and a 6 train on the uptown local track not moving for almost twenty minutes, I knew something was wrong further up the line. But if the problem was on the 6 line, why were 4 and 5 trains suspended from 86th St to Grand Concourse? If anything, other 6 trains could have been rerouted to the express track to get around that unfortunate R142A.
I ended up getting over to the west side to take the 2 home. I caught an R142 on the 2. It ran fine, automated announcements and all. Everything was fine there, except for a G.O. that had uptown 1 trains running express from Penn Station to 96th St and downtown 2 and 3 trains running local from 96th to Penn.
There was a G.O on the Uptown local track and all No.4,5,6 trains where running Express from Grand Central to 125. So the R142A was blocking the only uptown track in service.
That R142A had a brake pipe rupture. That was the cause of the whole fiasco.
My dislike of the R142's is well documented. Not only are the unreliable, but devoid of any style as well. Its like riding inside a hospital room.
I agree.
As i said in an earlier post, from a business point of view, the R142 equipment is good for the TA. Their business is moving people, and the majority of the riding public will like the new stuff.
From a railfan point of view the new equipment is totally uninteresting. All of the 'R' equipment was very distinctly New York. All of the Low-V and the like were classics. Too bad they had to go...
Pretty much sums up the way I feel about R68's. Lousy from a railfan point of view, good from a regular passengers point of view.
However I do think an R142 would beat an R68 in a race.
Sir, can you name some cars which were reliable when new?
The R-32.
I'm not sure who built the one I was on. I think it was a R-142A. It was on the 6 line. I don't think it was just a pulled cord or an emergency braking because they had to call car knockers in. JUST REBUILD THE REDBIRDS AGAIN! THEY ARE GOD!
>>JUST REBUILD THE REDBIRDS AGAIN! THEY ARE GOD!<<
It would be a waste of money to build new trucks, new car bodies new wires, wait, that'd be a whole new car!
>....wait, that'd be a whole new car!
a WHOLE NEW CAR.... with a tried-and-proven
longer lifespan than x number of trial runs...
>>>a WHOLE NEW CAR.... with a tried-and-proven
longer lifespan than x number of trial runs...<<<
A WHOLE NEW CAR....with no A/C, rust out the ass, and dangerous corrosion! You're right, let's get rid of those R142S! If we can keep these Redbirds around long enough, we'll be able to have the Railfan Window and the Railfan "Hole in the Floor" for that coveted "looking at the track as you wait for someone to clean up the dead body that fell through the corroded wall" view.
I'am sure by now the TA is sorry to have accepted those R-142's.
Knowing how contracts work, I'd be willing to bet that the "acceptance" part hasn't happened yet and after the contractors finish scrambling, they'll be just as OK as the 44's and 46's eventually became years after initial delivery. The 44's and 46's did contribute to putting both of those manufacturers out of business thus I would expect Bombasaki to both get both of their acts together quickly.
Built into the contract are factors like MDBF before the warantee period starts I believe. I don't think they have met any of those goals yet and the cars still "belong" to the manufacture.
They can keep the dam cars!
>>They can keep the dam cars!<<
Yes. While the redbirds carbodies continue to rot. No matter how much rebuilding you do, Deterioration of carbodies is something that a general overhaul cannot fix.
Now then, since we must get rid of those redbirds, we might as well make an advancement.
The R142 test trucks that were installed on the R110B had some problems a year ago. I think "Bomb"bardier paid off someone to accept these inferior trucks. The Kawasaki trucks don't use the same Chevron springs as the "Bombs". The Kawasaki's are better cars overall.
Don't forget that former MTA Chairman Peter Stangl left the MTA some years ago and took a job with BOMBardier. Need I say more?
Hmmmmmm!
About a year ago Bombardier (Bomb) installed test trucks on the two trailer cars of the R110B. There were some problems with them. Bomb probibaly paid someone off to use these trucks on the R142. The problem is in the Chevron springs on these trucks causing the tread brake units to inaccurately determine the brake shoe to wheel distance, thus causing a poor braking train and premature brake shoe wear. The Kawasaki trucks do not have this problem.
Hey! How about we rebuild a fleet of redbirds to replace the redbirds! But this time, to keep them from rusting, we use stainless steel. And maybe we can put some digital destination signs like on the R44 and R46 so we can change them easily. Maybe we can top it off with an A/C included when manufactured. Wait, and to make everything simpler, we'll consolidate nearly all controls into 1 screen into the cabs. And maybe we can make some additional interior signs so people can tell the time. And don't you just hate those godawful conductors who you never hear? Maybe we put some automated announcements too. Those seats not really comfortable on the redbirds? Well, maybe we can use some more curved seats on them. What do you think?
That's basically an R62, which is what they should have gotton.
An R-62 with more comfortable seats than a redbird, a screen in the cab and digital signs and automated announcements?
What have you been smoking?
Screw that! Where can the rest of us get some? Heh.
>>>JUST REBUILD THE REDBIRDS AGAIN! THEY ARE GOD!<<<
So THAT's what I've been going to church to worship all of these years! How could I be so foolish!? I thought that perhaps I was worshiping some all mighty diety with everlasting love. But silly me, I've actually been worshipping a 1960s era subway car! So that's why they've been on the 7 line all this time, perhaps to pay homage to car 9345's creation of the world in 7 days!
So tell me pastor, how are the almighty planning to deal with Their rust problem, retirement, and subsequent sinking into the sea to rust away as a marine life reef? Perhaps the smiting of certain shortsighted TA officials and us in the general public who would even DARE to want new, technologically advanced subway cars! With this new revelation, it looks like I'm destined for hell now. How will I ever get along down there with A/C subway cars and such?!
REDBIRDS, WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It doesn't even matter that it was an R-142. REPULSIVE RUSTBIRDS also have brake lines, and ones that are more worn and more likely to rupture anyway.
You picked the wrong item to complain about the R-142s. You also used two font tags when you could have used one.
My Sources tell me that they are having problems with the south side of the Manny B. Not to mention they must run test trains and probably some school cars before full force commences
Who would be your sources? They're putting guardrails onto the sides of the tracks now. They grafitti has been painted over. They're finishing the passenger walkway. I saw a work motor on the Manhattan-bound side a few weeks ago. They have to run route familiarization course. I'm guessing most T/O don't have a clue what that looks like and how it is. They did the same for the 63 Street connector. How long did that take?
Is there express service on Saturdays ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think so.
The Ridge Ave spur runs express under Broad Street, but all the non-Ridge Broad Street trains are locals on Saturdays.
SEPTA Saturday timetable
There is no regular express service on Saturdays or Sundays, but there is express service usually after an event at The Sports complex e.g. a baseball, football, basketball, hockey game, or a concert (and that is when you'll see an express on the line other than M-F from 5:00am to 6:30pm).
Special Event trains (blue marker light) are even better than expresses because they don't terminate at Walnut/Locust. They run all the way express to Pattison and it's a blast. This Sunday there will be game 7 of the Sixers playoffs and you can bet that they'll be running express trains. Furthermore, I have seen/heard SEPTA ads on TV/radio urging people to take the BSS to various events. The just is throk in a token and 10 minutes later you're at the game.
That's a great service.
Could the "4" train run a super-express using the middle track to Yankee Stadium on game days (in addition to the locals)?
[Could the "4" train run a super-express using the middle track to Yankee Stadium on game days (in addition to the locals)? ]
Super exp from where? From the City? Skipping 2 stops and requiring to build 4 switches?
Arti
Why was the R4 line skipped ?
What line would it have been ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-4 would have been The Bethlehem branch on The Reading side. I would not know the Pennsy portion of the line would be.
There is service proposed to Bethlehem - so if it happens it will be the R4...
On the Pensy side the line could go to Pennshauken/Cherry Hill. The line used to be electrified to Pavonia yard and there are catenary hangers to at least Rt. 130. That's where I always saw the R4 going.
i think in the 70's or 80's they discontinue r4.i think it
use run around west chester.paoli
The R4 never existed! Also, there has never been a rail connection from the unused R3 West Chester stop to the R5 Paoli stop for there are no tracks!
R4 was a service that was planned as a Chestnut Hill West-Media/West Chester line. There had been some talk of connecting CH West to the R6 Norristown line where they run side by side north of North Phila/North Broad. This would get CH West off the Amtrak Corridor and therefore remove delays to the line, since outbounds must cross over to the inbound 'local' track to branch off at North Phila, requiring considerable 'against the grain' reverse moves. CH West also gets delayed by Amtrak dispatchers who give Amtrak trains priority and delay CH West.
The connection between CH West and Norristown would put CH West trains on the ex-Reading trunk, bypassing 'little' North Phila and coming through Center City on the 'Reading' side. This would allow them to go out on R3 (at the time, R1 was Airport-West Trenton).
Under this scenario, R4 would connect R8 Fox Chase (disconnected from R8 CH West since both would be on the Reading side) with trains originating/terminating at Bryn Mawr on R5 Paoli (before the Tunnel, Paoli service basically ran 15-minute service with Paoli trains on 1/2 hour headways making only selected stops below Bryn Mawr, and Bryn Mawr locals on 1/2 hour headways making all local stops from there in). The R4 Bryn Mawr service would have preserved this. Thus, the R4 would be Bryn Mawr-Fox Chase and R3 would be Media/Elwyn (West Chester)-Chestnut Hill West. R8 would be redundant.
There has been no recent talk about the CH West-Norristown connection, although it would still make lots of sense.
That is a pretty good plan. It all boils down to $$$. SEPTA has a lot less of it than MTA does.
Surprisingly the connection would not be that expensive and, keeping in mind the cost of delays and the operational headaches of R8 on the Amtrak Corridor, it would probably be well worth the cost. But, as you can guess, we're dealing with SEPTA.
Also, there has never been a rail connection from the unused R3 West Chester stop to the R5 Paoli stop for there are no tracks!
There used to be connecting racks until fairly recently and they could be easily re-installed.
There was such a track but it was never electrified and, to the best of my knowledge, it didn't serve any passenger traffic.
The track was a tunnel that ran from the Maryland Div. line to a connection w/ Paoli line. It was electrified.
Do you mean that it ran in a tunnel? My recollection of it was that it was almost entirely at grade. I don't recall seeing anything about this line being electrified. Can you expand on this?
Since life-threatening events can and do occur on the subway, perhaps some thought should be given to providing automated defibrillators to conductors or T/o's to use. If someone suffers a heart attack on a train, such a device can automatically evaluate a rhythm and "shock" the victim, possibly saving a life. They are in use with "first responders" like police and firefighters; airline flight attendants have been trained to use them. They can be set up quickly and activated quickly.
They do cost money, however, so there is a cost/ benefit question.
But since, if you go into full cardiac arrest, the brain dies in under four minutes, the faster the victim can get help, the better. I respect (and have cooperated with) EMS crews, but they can't be everywhere in four minutes.
Something to think about...
This is contrary to current TA policy and from the reaction of customers to a sick fellow passenger, not what the public wants. The TA has begun a program of placing medical personnel strategically around the system. Perhaps we could expand on this and put a unit in every token booth. If a customer falls ill we can pull 'em off the train and zap 'em right on the platform.
"This is contrary to current TA policy and from the reaction of customers to a sick fellow passenger, not what the public wants. The TA has begun a program of placing medical personnel strategically around the system. Perhaps we could expand on this and put a unit in every token booth. If a customer falls ill we can pull 'em off the train and zap 'em right on the platform."
The TA's experiment sounds like it could work well.
I have personally been involved in helping stricken passengers on mass transit at least four times and have witnessed great compassion and caring among bystanders for these victims. If case being referred to saw revulsion or disgust as the primary public reaction (I may be misreading this; feel free to correct me), this should not be interpreted as the rule.
I have had to use my alarm to call for help for a sick customer several times. Of course, to call for help we have to stop waiting on customers and deal with the emergency. I have had to tell the line that they have to wait and yes they did cuss me out.
What matters to many customers is getting their token (or card) when they want it and to blazes with anyone or anything else.
Usually if there is a machine we tell them to use the machine. As soon as the immediate call for help is placed we resume window service until help arrives and then we again suspend window service and obtain information as to the sick customer's name, age, address, nature of problem, police badge number, EMS badge number, name of hospital, time of EMS and Police response as well as the case number (CN#). This info will be asked of us by supervision which will not be far behind.If any information is refused we tell that to supervision also. Often times, supervisor phones us before help even arrives.
As far as having defibirillators in booths. I could see it now-- while we were helping a customer someone would complain that we were ignoring them. We are trained not to leave the booth "because it could be a trap.[while one pretends to be in need of help, their accomplice would rob the booth or hurt us.]"
To answer another question- if we are robbed, we must pay back the money that was taken and we can lose our job if we did not act in good judgment. Even if we dont have to repay the money we would be suspended without pay until a hearing was held.
You have a tough job. The TA is right about the fact that you could be hurt leaving the booth. You have a lot of cash in the booth, and a lot of tokens, which are so ubiquitous that merchants often take them for payment instead of money. That's very tempting for crooks.
It saddens me that someone would cuss you out when you try to help someone who's sick. I know it happens. Of course, when it's his or her turn to be sick one day, of course everyone is supposed to be sympathetic...
It is even worse in the jail where I work at. Someone could be bleeding to death and the other goons will shout that they are tired of waiting. The idea of defibrillators on trains is good in theory, but unless proper training of staff and strategic placement of equipment can be established, I foresee problems,especially during rush hour.
Another problem time would be after midnight on an infrequently used line like the G or the L or the N in Brooklyn. A victim who collapses in a station on one of those lines will need the same amount of care as someone who falls in Midtown Manhattan. The main problem with heart disease is that it can strike without warning.
The important thing for rescuers who want a good outcome is to be prepared.
I agree with you - there are some challenges involved in making this work.
I can recall, during my EMT training, that I was taught even in relatively well controlled situations you can run into problems. Easiest example: A woman is down, and EMS removes some clothing to facilitate CPR. The rescuer working on her has a uniform on, a shirt that clearly says "EMT" or "POLICE" and there are other personnel there - but some idiot takes exception to that and begins interfering with the protocol, or becoming violent because he misunderstands what's going on.
Training, practice, rehearsal, more practice - those are key. Subway people can do it, but MTA will haveto apply "do-able" protocols and be ready to back up its people when they follow them.
You are right, and somehow the suit and tie crowd down at MTA headquarters must be brought to realize all the particulars involved in training the staff, communicating with EMS, police and other agencies, carrying out the work, and the problems and pitfalls that the poor guy in the field can encounter. If they go into this without a clear grasp of these things, the result will be terrible.
As far as having defibirillators in booths. I could see it now-- while we were helping a customer someone would complain that we were ignoring them. We are trained not to leave the booth "because it could be a trap.[while one pretends to be in need of help, their accomplice would rob the booth or hurt us.]"
Only a bureaucracy like the TA could come up with such an idiotic rule. Obviously, they consider the fairly small amount of money that's found in a token booth (which could be made inaccessable to thieves with drop safes, like you'll find in your neighborhood 7-11) to be much more important than someone's life. Sure, maybe the person who's collapsed in front of the booth is part of a ruse to lure out the clerk. But so what??? Let the thieves take the money - for Chrissakes, the TA's a big money loser at the best of times - if there's a chance that someone's life can be saved.
The T.A. does not care about the money- **we** have to pay back the money if we are robbed or if we give a customer tioo much change or if we accept a $10 and the customer wants $20.
While I am not at liberty to reveal how much money is in a booth. it is not a small amount. I am not saying how many are in a bag, but just one bag of tokens is alot of money. Some booths also have pre-encoded MetroCards for use when the computer is out.
Station Supervisors do routine booth audits where they convert all items in the booth to cash (for accounting purposes only) and when I had my first booth audit it surprised me when I saw what we had in that booth.
The rule is not stupid- if we get hurt then they'd have to pay us worker's compensation and if we are killed then they'd have to pay our beneficiary. We are of no use to Transit if we are dead.
>>> **we** have to pay back the money if we are robbed or if we give a customer tioo much change <<<
I can understand being responsible for a small shortage due to a mistake in making change, but it is hard to believe that you are held personally responsible for money lost to a robbery. Not even armored car guards a held personally responsible for such a loss. Where is your union?
>>> The rule is not stupid- if we get hurt then they'd have to pay us worker's compensation and if we are killed then they'd have to pay our beneficiary <<<
The TA is apparently not worried about paying worker's compensation or death benefits since the personal loss of money stolen would encourage booth personnel to resist any robbery. Banks and most businesses take the opposite tack and tell their employees to cooperate and get the robbers off the property as fast as possible. 7-11 even fired a clerk who overpowered an armed robber and held him for the police.
Tom
We are taught to give them what they want but we do have to repay!
"7-11 even fired a clerk who overpowered an armed robber and held him for the police."
Iunderstand why 7-11 did that, but I would not have fired the clerk. It's one thing to tell people not to risk their lives unnecessarily; it's unethical to demand that an employee not do what he/she thinks is necessary to save a life.
>>> it's unethical to demand that an employee not do what he/she thinks is necessary to save a life. <<<
The incident was the subject of a story on one of the TV news magazines, and a fellow employee who was in the store at the time was interviewed. She agreed with the company's action, and stated that much of the time the employee and robber were struggling, the gun was pointed at her in the confined area behind the counter, and she felt sure she would be killed.
Tom
The woman has a right to feel that way (the gun was pointed at her). However, we know, unfortunately, that there are no guarantees the robber wouldn't have shot them anyway. Was he esp. nervous on the trigger. Did the first employee sense that, and would that explain his resistance to the robbery?
On the other hand, if that employee was a Cowboy type anyway, then this might have been one more example of bad judgment.
I am AED certified. The course takes aproximately 6 hours and covers CPR/Rescue Breathing as well as the use of the AED machine. The machine has an electronic voice which tells you what to do step by step. The patient's heart rhythm is anylized. If Ventricular Fibrilation is detected, the machine shocks the patient, then reanylizes the patient. and reshocks if VF is still happening. If there is no VF, The rescuer is told to use CPR to keep the unconcious patient going until EMT's arrive. These machines cost @$3.000.00 so security is a concern but the AED is a proven lifesaver. A way should be found to equip MTA facilities with AED's.
I congratulate you, sir! You put in the effort to be a real asset to a member of the public who is in danger. People like you can make a real difference!
>>> Perhaps we could expand on this and put a unit in every token booth <<<
With the direction the TA is going with closing token booths, that might not be so helpful. A better distribution would be to have each C/R pick up a sealed unit when going on duty with a train that has been laid up, transfering the unit to any replacement C/R who relieves him while the train is active, and the final C/R who is aboard when the train is laid up is responsible to return the sealed unit to the dispatcher. Since any given C/R is unlikely to use the device on a run, this would be the simplest way to keep the units available but in good condition. Whenever the seal was broken for use of the unit there would be some kind of incident report, and the unit would be checked for proper operation before being resealed. Also C/Rs would have to be trained in the use of the units. I assume C/Rs now receive training in first aid and CPR.
Obviously some sort of regular maintenance checks would have to be done on the units at a fixed interval of time to make sure they are ready for use, and a system for tracking who was responsible for the units when they were in the field would be needed.
Tom
Today (6/2/01) the Metrocard Show was held in Manhattan. This is the first one I didn't attend, but chose to attend a bus ERA bus trip to Philly and view the new South Jersey Light Rail project.
DID I MISS ANYTHING !
I probably missed the usual Metrocards for sale that I already have. But most important, the rare ones I don't have at impossible inflated prices. All in a dimly lit smelly old building.
Anybody attend ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't go either, but was there for previous one.
The problem right now is that no new cards are coming out ... why,
the TA is selling so many Unlimited cards and folks are discarding vs. re-filling cards at such a rate that they ran out of seriel numbers for the cars, i.e. the number has to stay active in the system for a long time (buy a value card, the card "expires" in 12 months AND the customer has another year to turn it in & move the money to another card). So they are losing the grahics money from the sale of space on the back of the card because of there lack of forsight & the success of the MC.
Now if they offered customers one free ride if they re-filled a value card with at least $30 ... or alowed a unlimited card to be re-filled as the same type & gave you some reason to do that, e.g. $16 for a $17 weekly ... nah that's too hard for the folks on the 13th floor of Jay Street.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or nycDOT, and am speaking for myself vs. my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Today must have been my luck day. The only train I didn't ride nor work on was the Bombardier R142 until today. I came to work at 241 Street around 9:30AM ofcause the terminal was filled with Redbirds so I asked the T.S.S if there where any R142's on the road. He said there where 4 trains running. Now the last redbird pulls out and the R142 comes in for my run. I had very little problems with the train. The only thing that happened was the computer jumped back to Neried Ave at E180 but I quickly overcame the problem. The train made it to Flatbush on time. Its funny the car No. to my first Bombardier train was 6305. Now for the trip uptown I got another R142 CAR 6426 AND it worked great. The last trip I had the same train both ways 6411-6420. When I got to Flatbush I was told to keep the same train and go one ahead because the Crew for that run did not want the train. I was more then happy to stay on the train.
I also learned more about the train on how the computer works. Also on Friday I had the R142A Kawaski for 2 trips. Its stange to work a redbird line without a redbird but I really do not mind at all.
[I was told to keep the same train and go one ahead because the Crew for that run did not want the train. ]
It looks like some T/Os don't like those trains, why is that?
Arti
I hope you had fun. I got to operate the R142 one time before they were taken out of service. Never operated the R142a except for R142a training. Most T/O and C/R are not to fond of them but it is something that they have to get used to. Im pretty sure that the TSS that is on board provides them with helpful info.
http://abpr.railfan.net/july98/07-30-98/nycta3302oncatbeach90st4-3-87eo.jpg what car type? sorry copy and paste, not proficient in HTML
That's an easy one!
It is a beloved R-10!
I was thinking that as well, o thank you gods of subtalk and railfanning, looks great doesnt it? (not really, pretty bad graffiti, rusting to death) but much less boring then what cars look like now.
Do you have any idea what year the picture was taken?
I left NY in 1957 so I completely missed the grafitti period.
I probably rode on that very car in the 1950's
yea that picture is 1987
Thank You!
I'm not a bit sorry that I missed that period of time in NY transit history, although with all of the pictures that I have seen, I guess I really didn't!
Consider yourself lucky that you missed it. That was a very depressing period. Every car in the system looked essentially like that. Eeeeewwwwwww!!!!
I saw so many pictures that it was like being there!
While you might consider it depressing, it is depressing to see boring masses of steel just roll on by, I want to see the good 'ol days of real Murals. The culture.
It can be deduced from the URL:
http://abpr.railfan.net/july98/07-30-98/nycta3302oncatbeach90st4-3-87eo.jpg
April 3, 1987 at Beach 90th Street.
The train is bound for Rockaway Park (this is obviously the rear of the train, facing Bedford Park Blvd).
All Aboard the Grafitti train!
OH GOD YESSSS, "those were the daaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyysss"
I thought all remaining R10 by that date were th4 Pullman green variety. Guess I was wrong. Looks awful but I bet under that coat of many colors beats a still-strong heart. The R10s - sorely missed.
wayne
>>...The R10s - sorely missed....<<
What is this? Why does everybody miss the R-10s so much? They might have been a little faster than what we have today, but so was an R-32 back then, everything back then was a little faster. They were loud cars from what I understand, and I can only ever remeber seeing one: On the C line during the evening rush at 155th st.
Maybe you had to ride one to 'feel the magic', but I certainly don't see the big fuss over them.
Hate to say it but I hated them and the cousin R12/14 too. I'd as soon have an R17,21, thru 33/36 any day or the B div. types as well. The R10 was a good running train when they were good but I couldn't stand the noise or their ambience..to me it was a very depressing interior.But then the R38 was awfully noisy too, maybe they corrected that in GOH.Strangely with doors and windows shut the R10 were quiet enough but otherwise...ouch.
OTOH given my druthers I'd have taken an R1-9, High-V, low-V, etc.
Three words: sheer brute speed. The CPW dash on a train of those immortal Thunderbirds was second to none. They were tailor-made for the A, and whoever made the decision to assign them there deserves a medal.
This pic was taken on 4/3/87, and it's in the R10 roster page of this website. That was probably one of the last remaining non-overhauled R10's running in the system. I personally never saw one after 3/87 anyway.
That shot at http://abpr.railfan.net/july98/07-30-98/nycta3302oncatbeach90st4-3-87eo.jpg is one haggard looking beloved. And in that stupid "war between the states" paint scheme too. Hate to say it, but the graffiti HELPS ... could have used some fresh spray paint tho'.
It's a shame to see once proud cars looking THAT horrendous.
Oh man is that ever funny, anyone notice how graffiti became less and less artistic towards the mid 80s? towards the "clean car movement of 1989?" no longer the proud whole car movements of Tracy168s wild style or Lee's and Cliffs outrageous art on wheels. I better not start this, not here, not again
Nah, not here, not now ... but yes, SOME of it was truly art and made some mighty dingy cars look better. I didn't think much of the idiots who would just spray their names though. Taki183 and Dondi being the first have historic value of course, but I didn't think much of most tagging, especially the magic marker variety.
But the "jungle train," one that depicted Tina Turner and some other almost Ben and Jerry's kinda scenery *were* ART ... and I'd take that over the "war between the states" paint job any day. But it's still a criminal act any way you slice it, yada yada ... standard disclaimers apply.
agreed, what angers me is the MTA nor the City acknoweledges it, positive or NEGATIVE, i'd be so cool if they F*** up a car and put it in court st. and say something like, "oh look at what we came out of and what we are today" some SH** like that. At least the movement would be acknoweledged officially. Then again that would start a whole new argument amongst people who'll say "oh why is it necessarily negative" blah blah blah blah blah Im starting to go on and on.
It's an argument you can't win ... as you've heard way too many times here, modern society is not going to "celebrate crime" any more than they're going to celebrate Abbie Hoffman's little ditty that must have cost plenty to taxpayers for law enforcement's time and overtime in response to a threat that wasn't practical or possible. Still, they had to roll the trucks. I thought it was funny as hell at the time. But we all do eventually grow up and look at it again from a different perspective at a different time.
However, whether anyone WANTS it to be so or not, history WILL record the grafitti wave down the road. And if places like Phun factory (izzat the name) and others "off broadway" gallery it, it'll get into the history books ... but most folks will look at it as crime just as surely as if a squeegie guy walked up to your car with s spray can and did your windshield ... ain't fun on the receiving end of it.
(lecture mode off, don't mind me)
I miss squeegie people, Phun Phactory, two PHs, Yea I gues you are right.
Word. There's so many things in life that are just best held for 30 or so years ... suddenly they interest folks on subtalk as pure NOSTALGIA even if they sucked dead donkey lung on the D train at the time when you were stepping in it. What can I say? :)
Nostalgia is a pretty pathetic disease, nonetheless i am striken with it
Heh. Just watch out for that TRrreeeeeeeee ...
Let's see, how many members does the R-10 fan club have now? Yourself, myself, Wayne, and Mister R-10, William Padron, to name a few.
They were OK in my book too ... it's just that I worked for their parents. Heh.
I think the closest car in the picture was one of those sent over to the BMT in 1954 for familiarization for the R-16's.
The numbers for those cars are listed in Gene Sansone's book. I will have to look it up.
The photo of that train is a R-10 on (C). And it looks NASTY with mess up paint job and rusting on the car body.
When was the last run of the r7? On what line was it?
If you're speaking of the IND R7 (one of the R1-9 group) the last run was sometime in March l977...a J train out of 168 St-Jamaica to Broad and then light to Coney Island yard and railcar Valhalla.
It wouldn't have been a solid train of R7 though, be a mix or R7, 7a, and 9 and probably an R4 and/or R6. There was one R1 that survived until the end, l768 I believe, renumbered of course from original #.
Unfortunately I don't know what cars were in that last train.
The last lines to have these cars in regular service were the J and the L.[then the LL]
I thought the R6 and below were on the IND until the end, and the last two runs were simultaneously on the LL and GG.
The prewar R fleet went to East New York as well.
At the very end a handful of R-6 and R-7 went out to Eastern Division to fill in attrition gaps. One such bird was R-7 #1391.
wayne
Most of the R7 and all R7a and R9 were on the Eastern at the time the KK service was started. Then the lowest number IIRC 1400-1440 or 1450 were transferred from the IND; and in small increments, about 10 at a time the R6's went to the Eastern....down to about 1360 beginning with the 1390's, then 1380's etc. But yes, most R6 remained on IND.
Some of the surviving cars at the end were actually R4's that were renumbered from the 400-899 group and one last R1 as well, l768, had been renumbered twice.
Somewhere I have a story on that last R9 run, in my archives. Wish I were the motorman on it.
Did these 13xx R-6's ever get their roll sign extended for the BMT Eastern Division ?
I'm sure they did..believe it or not I don't remember but I'd swear they did if for no other reason the passengers would have to know which train it is.
They weren't roll sign extensions; the R1-9 Eastern sign set was all new; even the script was a little different even if plain straight lettering as the original rolls.
Were these new rollsigns only for the Eastern Division routes ?
Yes. Eastern only. Just for a little added trivia they never had END destination signs made up for the R1-9 types on the Eastern...only route signs (rollers).The original rolls were left in on the destination half and left showing white if I remember.
Yes, that is correct. The bulkhead destination curtains were cranked all the way to one end and had the white portion showing. Occasionally, you'd find a train with a destination sign showing, such as "Coney Island" on a QJ or the "168th St." portion of the "Wash. Hts-168 St." sign showing. I never saw one like that, though. I wonder why they simply didn't remove them or install multicolored curtains found on the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s.
They also received new side curtains. Unlike the original IND roller curtains, these didn't have cutouts on the ends to facilitate light bulb installation. The bulbs in the signboxes were removed and that feature was not used. I have one Eastern Division curtain which is grafted onto the end of an old R-1 BMT side curtain. It has all northern Southern Division terminals.
There were no subscripts on those end curtains, either. When the QJ became the J, they simply covered the Q with black tape.
The last revenue run was on March 31, 1977.
J line, March 1977. T'was the end for all pre-war IND cars.
I would like to ANNOUNCE our new website - The NEW YORK CITY MODEL TRANSIT SYSTEM O-Scale EL & TROLLEY
Exhibit based on New York City Transit circa 1940 to 1970 - this is not a toy train layout - this is Museum-Caliber Transit modeling, featuring all-"EL"
structure, surrounding cityscape, IRT,BMT, (& NYCTA)
el and subway passenger & work cars; streetcars and busses (and autos) so please view our website and let us know your comments via our email address
and let us know of your interest in this form of New
York Rapid Transit Historic Representation. The
operating exhibit is 50' x 8' and comprises 150+
transit vehicles - all having FULL Interiors!
Our WEBSITE address is-----
http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/
NYCModelTransitEL
Our e-mail address is posted on the website.
(Check It Out!!---More descriptives on website)
Thanks guys - Joseph Frank
Nice site, Joe...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow! I have a great deal of admiration for those who have the skill and patience to construct such detailed layouts.
BTW: Those are the best-looking Redbirds I have seen in a while. Do you think the TA would be interested? :-) Steps back smartly from the can of worms that has just been opened…
I *must* admit, when I saw "webTV" I was uncompelled owing to Microsoft's penchant for "while you're looking at OUR intellectual property and using it, you certainly won't mind if we look over the contents of your computer while you're busy looking" but I'm *GLAD* the other posts here compelled me to do it anyway ...
NICE PHUGGING LAYOUT!!!
Oh, sure hope "bigedirtmanel" goes and checks this out too ... it's like the glory days of Webster Avenue and what once dwelt in Manhattan before we sold it to the Nips.
If you HAVEN'T checked it out, screw this noise here - go check out (properly functioning URL) ...
http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/NYCModelTransitEL ... this site is "two thumbs up" and no wiseacres, please. REALLY worth the trip ...
Wow! Great work. Very beautiful.
Wonderful reproductions! I am involved with the BRMRRC, the Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club, Oliver Street and Marine Avenue, Bay Ridge, we have several O layouts dating to 1946, with ATC via voltage regulation.
Where is your layout?? Are vistors allowed???
What a great layout,i take it that all the trains were scratch built or converted lionel stock ? the workmanship seems to be very high. many years ago when i was living in Ridgewood,there was an old man who lived several houses down from me as my parents knew him he had the most detailed o scale model traction layout i've seen,he had some el, a surface line interubans i think and a strech of a subway along the edge of the layout,it took up most of the basement,it took several years of him desiging a signal system then he built the layout he used o scale passenger cars and made them into interubans with full interior lighting and all,he lived alone when i moved away from Ridgewood in 1967 he was still alive,i never saw him again this modeling reminds me so much of his layout,it's too bad that people who have such layouts like Bob Hegge's Crooked Mountain Lines o scale traction layout,or John Allen's fantasic ho scale layout couldn't be saved,i think if we would have had this internet in the 60's we may still have the layouts today to admire as we would have had a means to keep in touch much better...who knows but this layout we have on this web site is a great stride in the direction that i think we all would like to end up with ourselvs,is there a way that we can get the info on how to build such high detailed models as these thanks. Karl
Joe ... as always, fabulous!
Now all you need is a webcam so we can see you operating this layout (and I'll need a keyboard protector from all the drool that is sure to develop :)
--Mark
Has the ta kept some of the retired cars in storage to use as spares when required?
I've never heard of any. There was one incident where some BMT standards were pulled from a scrap dealer and put back in service..1966 I believe; but normally once cars or retired that's th end of the line...and off the property ASAP. I wouldn't say there aren't other exceptions; or that keeping some older cars for emergencies in storage wouldn't be a good idea.
Is it possible that some of the r10's were kept past 1989 and used again iin 1991.
No, none were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All the R16's were mothballed around 1979, and at least the WH ones went back into service with the R46 crisis raging.
About 46 GOH R30's hung around a short while.
I hope 200 Redbirds are cherry-picked and stored for a future crisis.
just 200??? We're gonna need more than that
judging by the way the 'supposed' REPLACEMENTS
are holding up (the line)......
I know that track extends west beyond the station...is there enough
room for an 11 car train??...I always wondered about that...
I believe the answer is yes, but don't quote me... others out here (Peter Dougherty among others, any T/O who's worked the 7, etc.) can give us a more definitive answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peter's book states that the tracks are approximately 700 feet long. So... 11x51=516 with still some space to spare.
11x51=516 with still some space to spare.
Actually =561, but your point is still valid, there's space. Thanks for the info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have always been interested in these tail tracks ever since I first observed them. I pass through Times Square station almost every day, but don't make it down to the 7 to investigate that often.
I inquired about the tail tracks some time ago with regard to the often tossed around notion of extending the Flushing line out to the west, but was unable to find someone who knew the exact distance that they extend past the platform.
So now that we do know these tracks extend approximately 700 feet, my question is: How far are they from 8th Avenue at the western end of the IRT tunnel?
I reason they can't extend to the west past 8th avenue because of: 1) the presence of the lower level platform at 42nd street on the 8th avenue-IND line, and 2) the distance beteen seventh and eigth avenue is ~900 feet. But I could be wrong -- it is next to impossible for me to accurately estimate depth and distance underground.
I'm guessing they must come fairly close, though. Does anyone know?
MATT-2AV
If I remember correctly from long long ago, far far away, those tail tracks go RIGHT TO the wall of the IND 42nd St station (that used to go to Aqueduct once upon a time) ... it's that wall that's the end of the tracks.
Car storage is not the purpose for these tail tracks. Using these tracks for storage would negate that purpose.
Their purpose is to permit 40 tph operation on the line. They have operated 36 tph in the past. The tail tracks help this by permitting the trains to enter the station at near max speed. If the tail tracks were not present and Times Square were a stub terminal, then the train speed would be limited to 5-10 mph in the station. This would limit the theoretical capacity to 30 tph. The 14th St Line, which has a stub terminal at 8th Ave, ran 24 tph in the past.
>>> The tail tracks help this by permitting the trains to enter the station at near max speed. <<<
That makes a lot of sense, but I do not ever remember coming into Times Square on the 7 at high speed. It has been a long time since I was there, but when there was a short interval (high tph) the incoming train was waiting for one of the station tracks to clear. Even if no train was in the station, the incoming trains always slowed for the interlocking just before the station.
Tom
Since the tail tracks extend about 700 past the station, could they build a diamond crossover just west of the station, and have trains turn around back there. It would increase TPH dramatically. You could have up to 4 trains at one time around the station, two using the tail tracks to turn around, the westbound side for unloading trains, and the eastbound side for loading. And you would still have time for the crew to walk to the other end of the car while at the tail tracks.
No, you have reduced capacity to 24 tph.
Consider a train has just stopped in the station. Assume that the dwell time for discharging all the passengers is 30 seconds. The time for a train to move 700' @ 5 mph is 93 seconds. The platform is now clear so a new train can enter the station. If the tail track were empty, then the train could average 15 mph. The time to travel 560' @ 15 mph is 25 seconds. So the cycle is 30 + 93 + 25 = 148 seconds. Unfortuantely, trains currently operate at 120 second headways. You need an empty second track, for the next train.
Motormen will be switched because of the tight schedule. It would take a person about 2 minutes, walking briskly, to go from the back to the front to change directions. Dwell time at Times Sq is around a minute.
I assume that the tail tracks ensure that if a train coming in at 30mph has a brake failure it can manage to stop without a major collision?
Dan
No, what the tail tracks ensure is that if a train goes into emergency at 30 mph at the west end of the platform by virtue of being tripped by the red signal there, that it will stop before the bumper 700 feet away. If any train has a brake failure, the only a collision will stop it.:-)
If the train is at the west end of Times Square and doing 30,
those pocket timers weren't doing their job!
Those are timers not wheel detectors. It is possible for the operator to accelerate after passing the last timer signal. I don't know, if he'd make it up to 30 mph. However, there is still sufficient stopping distance on the tail tracks to come to a complete stop before the bumper.
Otherwise they would have to add a WD within the platform to guard against such a possibility. :-)
It's about 200' between the last automatic pocket-timed signal
and the homeball at the end of the platform which is normally at
danger. So, it would be tough to run the block there. But
there are numerous places in the system where a t/o could deliberately
wrap it up after passing the last timer and cause quite a stir.
Ssssh, I shouldn't say anything, or there'll be more WDs.
A body undergoing a constant acceleration of 1.5 mph/sec will have its velocity increased by 20 mph in 200 feet.
Hey Bill. Wanted to let you know that from my experiences, an 11 car or a ten car train does not fit on the tail tracks at Times Square. It might be 700' from what others say but if you factor in where the bumping block is and also the distance from the station wall to the reverse home signal for the tail track it cuts down the distance. An 8 car train would probably fit with signal protection. The tail tracks are handy at night when the garbage train comes out and hides in the back. The timers are extremely slow when there is a train in the back and dispatchers look to get rid of them as soon as they can. If Rudy's plan for an extension of the 7 to the Javitz center comes to fruition, the lower level of 42 and 8 would bite the dust.
Hey Bill. Wanted to let you know that from my experiences, an 11 car or a ten car train does not fit on the tail tracks at Times Square. It might be 700' from what others say but if you factor in where the bumping block is and also the distance from the station wall to the reverse home signal for the tail track it cuts down the distance. An 8 car train would probably fit with signal protection. The tail tracks are handy at night when the garbage train comes out and hides in the back. The timers are extremely slow when there is a train in the back and dispatchers look to get rid of them as soon as they can. If Rudy's plan for an extension of the 7 to the Javitz center comes to fruition, the lower level of 42 and 8 would bite the dust.
Sorry to go off topic but no comment cameout where I mentioned the Peanut Gallery in one of my posts. Who else remembers Howdy Doody? NO I wasn't a fan of that show...just testing memories.
Oh well, some TV showed rail stuff...Superman opened with either an SP Daylight or SP F-type diesels.
Clarabell or Buffalo Bob (both of whom are DEAD) ? Nah, nobody here remembers that stuff nor are we willing to remember, "WHAT TIME IS IT?" Go away. Heh.
Heck I can still remember the Peanut Gallery. Probably only on on sub talk that sat in the real Peanut gallery. Cira 48 or 49, Besides Claribell there was Princess Summer Fall Winter Spring. Now for a million free miles on the 15 Jam/Bwy line who did Claribell become after his time on Howdy Dowdy? I know the answer or I wouldn't have asked the question. Answer to follow the Cubs game today.
That's too EASY ... just so you know that *I* am with the carney here, I'll give it away to the wise as "very large coat pockets that held a carrot" ... but I won't ruin it for others ... wink-wink, nudge nudge ... she's a goer, then, eh? :)
No wait ... I'm thinking a Chicago clown who moved to NYC in the 50's and did the same sideshow act there ... glad it's the mind that goes first and not a vital organ :)
Are you thinking of Bozo the Clown? There still is a Bozo show (in Chicago I think) but it shows up cometimes on local cable.
Yeah, but I was covering my wager. Turns out I was right the first time. Heh. Just wasn't sure with the fog of 26 hours on duty with what it is I do now ... But yeah, Chicago's "Tribune Bozo" (WGN) was NYC's (WPIX11) Bozo as well ... man, his arms musta hurt with all that flying back and forth ... for a redbird storm door, who was BOZO the Clown (and no, NOT the "Merry Mailman" who provided us all with his loverly daughter, Joey Heatherton) ... grrrrow-wow ... nice puppy canine. Flavor-snackos ...
But what the HELL does this have to do with the ongoing debate of "my subway car is more fooked up than yours?" :)
Well, of course, Bob Keeshan became Captain Kangaroo. A very nice person and a very big noise out here in Babylon, where he lived. Contributor to the local Y and different kid's things. Kind of makes up for Babylon's other Big Bob. Anyone know who I'm talking about?
A guess --- Robert Moses ?
The very one. He had a big house on Thompson Avenue just south of Main which the local kids burned down many years aho.
Paul is right on. Has to be like me and Selkirk and Big Ed, having been there and don dat. Bob keeshan was Clairbell and then became Cpt kangaroo. Has to be a great man for all he the delight he brought to the younger generation. Non of that Liberal stuff from the likes of Barney. Barney and Robert Moses were the worst for NY. Cost effective clean and regular mass transit for large metro is the only way you get the biggest bang for the buck. Nyc should extend the flushing line to La Guardia and the A to JFK. Not later but now. Atlanta is proof that travelers will use transit to the airport.
Couldn't wait for the Cubs to win as got to run to the left coast of Michigan and it will be past my bed time when I get back. Lots of rest keeps the brain cells from fading.
Thought this was a good thread for a slow transit sunday.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
PS Any ole Army Aviators out there amoung the Sub Talkers.
Barney liberal?!?! Jerry Fallwell says he's QUEER ... purple and all. It takes *BALLS* to be a liberal these days and last I checked, Barney was lacking same. :)
If you're near Hotlanta, grant us No Yawkah's one last wish before the lights go out? Can we have five minutes alone in an underpass with John Rocker? PLEEZE? We can show him a can'o'wupass good time. Heh.
No joystickers here, ain't nothing but us chikkens ... moo. ;)
Not from Hotlanta. But I do live above the 45 parrallel in northern MI. I don't know why everyone got on John Rocker at least he told the truth. The neighborhood of the 7 ain't the same as when envisioned by Mr. Belmont. As with all the lines in the City they go through a hodge podge of ethinic neighboorhoods. I lived in the south 27 years after going in the Army in 62. Rocker's biggest fault was he said outloud what people think to themselves. Maybe if more people spoke there minds and people listened NYC and the world would be a better place.
When all else fail the Infantry School solution will take care "Just Nuke Um Till They Glow In The Dark"
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Damn ... I had a lot of respect for you before this post. Lemme put it this way, proud to be an upstate redneck, proud to be a Republican. just not the side you seem to see. New York City was ALWAYS an "armpit" of refugees from elsewhere - that's ALWAYS been what it's about. It's a place to be among your won if there's enough of you until you're ready to move somewhere else and be abused by the "Love it or leave it" mentality.
PLEASE pardon my hackles here, but the only RIGHTFUL AMERICANS live on "reservations" ... all the rest of us are THEIR guests ... glad you're out of the city and all - as an upstate "redneck" I can appreciate the value of getting away. Took three generations for *this* white trash to move out. HOWEVER ... Rocker's an asshole and so is (to my mind at least) anyone who has a problem with the fact that NO ONE came from an "American gene pool" here. We're *ALL* MONGRELS, FOREIGNERS and perhaps pinkos (grin) ... but we're Americans BECAUSE NO TWO ARE ALIKE ... that's what makes every one of us special, at least in our own minds. As long as the people that were here before us who never believed in silly "property boundaries" are willing to let us stay, we should be grateful for their generosity as fellow carbon based lifeforms for putting UP with us.
Once again, no offense intended ... when you live away from loonies, you tend to take a broader view of our place on a spinning ball in space.
New York City is Polish, it's Lithuanian, it's Irish, it's Bulgarian, it's Cuban, it's Dominican, it's Borinquen, it's Korean, Nepalise, Iraqi, Greek, Turkish, Samoan, Nigerian, Turkmeni, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Seychelles Islands, Filipino, Afghani, Congolese, Cantonese, Peruvian, Senegalese, Manchurian, Moroccan, Jewish, Palestinian, Latvian and much, much more. Is there somehow something WRONG with this? If New York City doesn't break out in global conflict, why shoudld we give a sheet (white or black, his choice) about John Rocker?
The sphincter muscle is the only politically correct orifice there is. EVERYBODY has one. And John Rocker has too many. Once again, my deepest respect to you personally, but contempt for what you expressed. My apologies ... please, nothing personal ...
No apologies please as I know what you are saying about native americans and the rest of us being guests. It just seems that the new generations of some ethnic groups don't want to work as hard as there forbearers. I'm not for slave labor but the folks with there hands out so the liberals can fill them for doing nothing except breathing is not good for the city. Somehow I think you had the misfortune of coming in contact with their likes and know what I am trying to put in words. It was the hard working Italians down on Mulberry St and the Jewish community on Delancy St and Irish in Brooklyn et al that really made NYC great in the first half of the century. I hope I have explained myself much better. I spent 26 years in the Army and worked with all and all worked together. That's the way it should be if we continue to be a great society. A big negative is the voting apathey. We fight for others so they can have a right to vote where the ballot has more than one name and party. Thanks for respecting my right to have an opinion as it is like the A------ everyone has one.
Always burn the slow orders.
Curt
>>> It just seems that the new generations of some ethnic groups don't want to work as hard as there forbearers <<<
Isn't it ironic that this was the complaint about the "lazy" Irish, Italians and East European Jews when they first came to New York.
Tom
That was before my time. But they couldn't have been too lazy as they took part during the city's biggest growth in infastructure. Especially in a time before mechanism to the extent that WW 2 brought. Most thinks done by shovel and pick. Think about the river tunnels and the Brooklyn Bridge at the turn of the century. Nothing but back breaking labor.
Burn the slow orders.
Curt
If you could find a copy of Lights and Shadows of New York Life, from 1872 and reprinted 100 years later (I have a reprint) you'd find a lot of surprises; one thing was slums, people's ignorance, living in filth, crime galore...even incidents of "roughs" boarding streetcars and harassing passengers and/or robbing them, refusing to pay their fares etc. Like the turnstile jumpers who'd do the same on the subway in the 70's before I left. No racial group names mentioned but you can pretty much decipher that it was the Irish. NO OFFENSES MEANT.
As for lazy newer immigrant groups my own experience from living in small town America is that too much of our modern society is lazy as well. I won't waste space but all that's pinned on [mostly]darker skinned people goes on among Anglo-Saxons and some other Caucasians, not that I'd ever sympathize with the bad element that ran me out of NYC 24 years ago. Only killings aren't as common and you rarely see burned out buildings. I hated what I saw in NYC back then but found a lot of similar things in white America, and thru reading found none of this stuff was new either.
I do hate politicians that helped foster the easy on criminals thing though.
Q: What do politicians and diapers have in common? A:They both have to be changed often for the same reason.
I don't like what I read about in the lowest level of the Mexican community for example but imagine what a lot of produce would cost if it weren"t for them in California let's say. Or the Italian ditch diggers years ago, or the Irish who built the RR plant, etc.
Actually, I have children who were of an age to watch Barney the Dinosaur.
The original (pre-PBS) and first few years of PBS Barneys were on the more traditional side of the culture wars.
I don't suppose anyone is going to write a tell-all book about the evolution of Kids' TV, but the traditionalists, as represented by Bob Keeshan and Fred Rogers, were opposed to the Sesame Street crowd. The essential difference was the early (1968) concept of Sesame Street which said that children have short attention spans, so you have to give them fast snippets of information--pow! pow! pow!--to keep them from wandering off. Within the last few years, PBS has acknowledged (albeit indirectly) that this is in error.
Barneey represented a return to the concept that children's (esp. pre-schoolers) TV is supposed to engage its intended age group--not their too-too-hip parents. Each Barney episode is (or was--I haven't seen the new productions in years) structured around a single theme that flows from start to finish, and is reviewed at the end.
Sorry if this is an unpopular position, but if you actually watched some of these shows with children, or you get a much different idea of their appropriateness than what you read in the New York Times.
Nothing between commercials is as dangerous to children as the commercials themselves. Shows have different messages, but commercial s are all the same...
"Your value of a person, and the worth of your life, depends on the things you can buy...and people are things for your enjoyment that come with the other things you can buy."
Hell of a lot of cars in the commercials as well.
We had a TV really early--1949. It was our one big luxury which we could afford since, like most Brooklynites, we lived in an apartment and didn't own a car. So we saw Howdy Doody from very early on--from when Buffalo Bob was still just called Bob Smith. I remember the rather absurd episode where he was named Buffalo Bob. IIRC, Chief Thunderthud handed Bob a "puzzle" which was just two parts of a Buffalo placard, he fitted them together and was honored to thus become "Buffalo Bob."
The neighborhood kids and I puzzled over some of the mysteries of the show. The name "Howdy Doody" sounded vaguely obscene to our Brooklyn ears, though it was taken from MiddleAmerican for "How do you do?" And we wondered why an obviously boy clown was named "Clarabelle."
By brother and I didn't like Howdy Doody much--we considered it babyish, though I can't really recall why. There were a lot of kid shows then, many produced in the NY area, so it was real easy to get tickets. There was a favorite on WATV (Channel 13 in Newark pre-public TV) which was "Junior Frolics" on Weekdays and "Junior Carnival" on Weekends. On topic: every year for my birthday, I got to be in whatever they called their "peanut gallery" on one of these two shows. To get to Newark we took the Hudson Tubes so I rode on the old Newark Extension cars (pre-Class-K) through the Jersey swamps without air conditioning. You can't imagine the smell! And I used to lok at the all the pipes going into the river and watching pretty colors coming out. Anyone who thinks pollution controls haven't gotten better should have had that experience.
If I'm grateful to my parents for one thing, it was that they never complained when I wrote off for (free) tickets to different TV shows. It was a great (and in retrospect unusual) experience to see early TV. I recall how agreeable Gary Moore was. He used to banter with the audience before show time. And I recall poking around Channel 9's studio at 1440 Broadway. They were showing a movie in a darkened room and had a camera pointed at it!
Last thought on Buffalo Bob--by the time my wife was in college he was making the circuit of college entertainment (kind of like the Bob Hope of the 2-S crowd) in costume cracking jokes about pot smoking, I'm told. O tempore! O mores!
IIRC wasn't there a show on Channel 9 called "Circus Train" with Claude Kirschner. The kids rode around the studio in a large battery operated train, between cartoons.
There was an article in the NY Times Sunday Real Estate Section 10-15 years ago about what can be found in attics. The article went on to describe how the new homeowners found this train in the attic. After doing a title search, they discovered that two or three owners previous to them was Claude Kirschner and this was the train from the show. Don't know what happened subsequently to the train.
Wow ... he also did "Cartoon Carnival" ... if ever there was a guy who LOOKED like a pedarast, Uncle Claude fit the ticket even better than Tony Randall. :)
Now ... for the GRAND prize of Heypaul's R9 cab, who was the magician who appeared with Sonny Fox almost every Saturday on Wonderama on channel 5? I'm a personal friend of the magician and he's alive and well in Florida ... I'll put you in TOUCH with him if you'd like, he's every bit as cool today (and perhaps even more so) if you can guess his name ... he gets a kick out of his own peanut gallery but if you know what's good for you, don't try to sell him anything. :)
Apparently Circus Train was syndicated, as I remember it being shown on Baltimore's Channel 13 (WAAM in those days) circa 1952-53. We had a n Admiral 13" TV (black & white in those days), and sorta fond 1950's memories of Howdy Doody, the Peanut Gallery, and Dilly-Dally.
And, in my upstairs bedroom I could hear the Peter Witts winding up the hill on Harford Road (just 1 house from Harford) heading for Parkville.
Howdy Doody was a bit before my time, but I do remember Romper Room quite well. And, of course, Captain Kangaroo, which seemed targeted toward a slightly older age group than Romper Room.
And Romper Room was a production of Bert Claster Productions, based in Baltimore, MD and syndicated to the World.
How about a show called "Birthday Party" with a gent named Paul Tripp?? Not to mention WONDERAMA [The Sonny Fox version,of course!]..or all those cartoon & comedy shorts shows hosted by guys like Officer Joe Bolton [Three Stooges] and Captain Jack McCarthy [Popeye]...
Gee Ed, I thought you were too old to have seen TV in your youth.
Didn't we talk once about our favorite radio programs?
"Who KNOWS what evil lurks in the hearts of the state legislature?" Amtrak do ...
Kevin, I hate to tell you this, but the "Shadow" was not one of the favorites!
Yeah, you probably went for Guy Lombardo. Heh. Merely demonstrating that I actually remember the phrase ... my name? Well, we're scr00d ... radio, as it transitioned from serials and big bands to Scott Muni and "The Good Guys" was ... well ... interesting.
Actually, I couldn't live without The Lone Ranger.He was on three times a week at 7:30 PM, Mon, Wed & Fri. I was absolutely stunned when I learned that he was not an actual part of the history of the west. His radio programs were a lot better than any of his TV shows.
Guy Lombardo was OK, but only for New Years Eve!
Heh. Republic pictures (now Turner/MGM) *owns* all of those. There was a station called WFTI-TV54 in Poughkeepsie (now "Pray-TV") that OWNED the flicks back in 1980 ... we ran them faithfully (gack) every afternoon (7 days a week) at 5:30 PM right before the nightly newscast that yours truly stepped in front of a four-camera shoot and did at the anchor desk without benefit of "hey, sailor" as part of my stint with the high paying RTNDA crowd ... even got to do a standup from the White House lawn the day Ronnie got himself cannonized as a saint and the "hostages" came home. Damn if the satellite didn't sheet the bed and we had to do it from tape later.
But them films were *WELL* taken care of and can run again. I made "Family TV of Poughkeepsie, Inc" spend a FARKLOAD of money to apply silione to the original Republic Pictures dubs so they'd last. And yes, we ran them through an RCA TK66 film chain which was rebuilt to treat them with the care they deserved when we dubbed them to 2 inch quad tape on an Ampex 1100 deck with Editec and all the toys, into a VW-2 Time base corrector. Also dubbed to one inch after passing them through "scratch correction" ... should be some good dubs out there still.
Encore Westerns did a marathon of old Lone Ranger TV shows about a year ago. I watched for hours, and that night I had the most bizarre dream possible.
I was on the Jamaica (J) train as it pulled into Chambers St. The train was the old R-16's, and when the doors opened, Clayton Moore and Jay Silverheels got on in their complete TV attire, and leading Silver & Scout. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be to actually have a masked cowboy and an indian, leading horses, and getting on a subway train?
I suppose that it shows that I must have been thinking about the subways and The Lone Ranger a lot!
How did the films LOOK? They *should* have been pretty clean considering how scraatched up they were when *WE* bought them - I never much cared for the "Loan Arranger" myself - I though it rather trite, but when we realized what we *HAD* we treated it with the respect it *DESERVED* for its vintage as well as its popularity back in 1980 (see Poughkeepsie Journal historic articles on "WFTI-TV" and "LLone Ranger" for the crap we took at the time for airing them) ... we SPENT the money to remove all the scratches technology could at the time and gave them a long-lasting silicone layer to maintain them for "the future" ...
And yes, they DID do some of the show out of NYC though all of it was shot on the old Republic lot out in the Calley desert where they shot so many other things like Star Trek and CHIPS ... When I was a kid, I saw that, Hopalong Cassidy and such, but *MY* idea of TV was the stooges and SUPERMAN ... never really got into wanting to shoot injuns, since all of us are THEIR GUESTS here in America. They wuz here first after all ... :)
The shows used in the marathon were great copies. I even taped some of them for old times sake. I agree that the TV show did seem trite, and that's why I preferred the radio show. With the radio show you could hear, but you had to create the picture in your mind.
Thats the problem with TV compared. The radio enabled one to use there imagination. TV eliminates that step in the thinking process. I think it help one visualize and that's a good mental process lost on todays generation.
Burn the slow orders
Curt
"Thats the problem with TV compared. The radio enabled one to use there imagination. TV eliminates that step in the thinking process. I think it help one visualize and that's a good mental process lost on todays generation."
And if I recall a discussion in a history class back in college, the same fears were expressed about radio when IT came out. "Why, they'll have the voices and sounds laid out for them on a silver platter, instead of having to imagine them like you do when reading! Young minds will turn to mush in one generation without that additional thinking!" :^)
Come to think of it, there was a popular perception when car radios first came out that there was a rash of car accidents because drivers weren't paying attention to the road. The public debate in the newspapers of the day sounds suspiciously like today's cell phone driving debate.
Come to think of it, there was a popular perception when car radios first came out that there was a rash of car accidents because drivers weren't paying attention to the road.
And there's probably some truth to that assessment. What most folks fail to recognize, when they start singling out one item or another - be it radios, be it cell phones, be it squabbling children, or whatever - the issue is a general one of driver attentiveness. Some people can listen to the radio and drive safely, others cannot, and the same goes for cell phones, children, or your spouse. As long as the driver remains focused on their driving, the rest is trivial, but when they forget, it might be the for the last time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was one of the reasons I *loved* working in radio (aside from the measly paycheck) because you could do things on the radio that you couldn't POSSIBLY afford to do on teevee ... look at the things firesign theater did in the 60's as but one other example. Nowadays, radio is some loud mouth deejay telling you how there's continuous music with no interruptions ... except THIS one of course. :)
Encore Westerns did a marathon of old Lone Ranger TV shows about a year ago. I watched for hours, and that night I had the most bizarre dream possible.
I was on the Jamaica (J) train as it pulled into Chambers St. The train was the old R-16's, and when the doors opened, Clayton Moore and Jay Silverheels got on in their complete TV attire, and leading Silver & Scout. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be to actually have a masked cowboy and an indian, leading horses, and getting on a subway train?
Never could happen in real life. The HORSES would be too disgusted by the condition of Chambers Street!!
Everybody says that about Chambers St. I have not seen the station in person in over 40 years, but I have seen it in Salaam's railfan videotapes.
It really does not look much worse than I remember it from the 1950's, and it looked pretty bad then. Any station that sets only partially used and dirty for years has one strike against it to begin with. Water coming out of the ceiling, and tile falling off the walls makes the whole situation worse. The new lighting just makes the dirt and disrepair easier to see.
Probably so...I think even though I was born in 1943 I was much like the old Liberty ships, built with reciprocating engines when turbines were the thing for deep sea ships for some 25 years already. They must have made me from 1910 plans! Everything I liked best except for 50"s music and autos is from that period.
Actually I watched what little I saw of Howdy Doody on a friends TV...my family didn't have one until 1958; so I enjoyed radio when some of the last of the old comedies were still on, and of course my rock and roll/rhythm and blues of the period.
Superman opened with either an SP Daylight or SP F-type diesels
Was the SP Saylight steam-powered? It seems to be that the early Superman episodes shows a steam engine for "More Powerful Than a Locomotive" and the later ones a diesel.
The steam engine expressed the "more powerful" much more forcefully than the diesel, IMO.
There is a wonderful site that has TONS of stuff about old TV,with a huge amountof amterial about old kiddie shows from various cities.....
Somehow screwed up the html.... here it is....sorry.....
Make that a double OOOPS!!
That link looks interesting, but neither the first or second worked.
NOW try.........computers are so intolerant of typing errors....lol
>>> NOW try.........computers are so intolerant of typing errors... <<<
This time it worked. An interesting site. It is best to preview and test links before posting.
Tom
Not am I old enough to remember "Hey Kids, What Time is It", I also remember "Winky-Dink and You" too. Actually I was a big Superman & Captain Midnight fan and have many videotape episodes of each.
OK - Tonight's subway trivia question:
In one Superman episode, the bad guys knock the motorman of a train unconsious to kill Lois Lane. They set the throttle and the local runs out of control. Question, what train was sent running out of control and what was it going to collide with?
Captain Midnight Trivia:
Who were SQ-1, SQ-2 and SQ-3
What was the name of Captain Midnights plane
Bonus Question:
What was the name of Sky King's original Plane.
BS you are not old enough. You've been there and Don Dat. Too many hours in the shop fixing bad orders.
Burn the slow orders
Curt
Was there something before the "Song Bird"?
Nope but there was something after the Songbird
What was it, Songbird II ?
Not only am I old enough to remember "Hey Kids, What Time is It", I also remember "Winky-Dink and You" too. Actually I was a big Superman & Captain Midnight fan and have many videotape episodes of each.
OK - Tonight's subway trivia question:
In one Superman episode, the bad guys knock the motorman of a train unconsious to kill Lois Lane. They set the throttle and the local runs out of control. Question, what train was sent running out of control and what was it going to collide with?
Captain Midnight Trivia:
Who were SQ-1, SQ-2 and SQ-3
What was the name of Captain Midnights plane
Bonus Question:
What was the name of Sky King's original Plane.
On radio they were known as SS-1 etc.
SS-1 Captain Midnight
SS-2 Chuck
SS-3 Joyce
Icky was an SS member too, but I don't think he had a number.
On radio Sky King's plane was "The Songbird".
Not sure what the route was but I believe the two trains involved were a Steinway Lo-V and an R-1/R-4 type. Don't ask me how they got on the same track.
wayne
The Valley Local was supposed to crash into the Valley Express, a
"half-hour nonstop run." Since the Daily Planet Building was LA City Hall, I guess the next question is whether LA's subway runs to the Valley. Hopefully TV Land will also rerun Casey Jones and the other shows someday.
In today's Newsday's Currents and Books Section there is an article about how trolleys are making a comeback in some downtown areas as a solution to the traffic problems.
One of the people quoted is Jim Schantz, president of the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine.
If you get the paper it is on Page B-7.
the website is www.newsday.com.
with all this, i think the r142's will make it to the 7
"#7 Line Extension to Javits Center Area The success of the Jacob Javits Convention Center and the potential for continued growth in midtown Manhattan west of 8th Avenue has generated the need to evaluate improving transit access to that area. In 1999, New York City is initiating the Far West Midtown Study which will focus on the potential demand for a possible extension of NYC Transit's #7 train (Flushing Line) west from its current terminus at Times Square to a new terminus near the Javits Center."
A new expanded Corona Yard & Barn is needed before any R142's can be transfered to the #7 and the EPA is holding up the project due to enviornmental concerns: wetlands (swamps) in the area. You need a high tech maintance facility for high tech cars. For example: you need an overhead crane to change an air conditioning unit on an R142 because it is mounted in the roof.
I never would have guessed that an overhead crane counted as high tech. I remember seeing chain hoists in a factory 30 years ago.
Of course, with the computerization of the 142, your basic point is certainly valid.
In the context of ancient Corona Yard, the installation of an overhead crane is indeed high tech! In addition, a roof mounted a/c unit is high tech in the evolution of TA subway cars.
Several months ago, I posed a question regarding the Subway Series Commemorative Train that the Danbury Mint had advertised.
At that time someone (American Pig IIRC) said that they had received a postcard indicating that the item would ship in May.
Has it been received and how does it look vis-a-vis the real thing ?
According to NY1, scrapping begins in two weeks.
DEADBIRDS
Ten-hut! On deck! Don scuba gear, last ride ... watch the not-quite-closing doors, step lively ... grccchhhhh grek foop ... blub.
Now we can FINALLY get on with the LoV GOH. :)
Which Redbirds will be scrapped? Have any been pulled from service?
I heard that the R-142's are up and running, the R-33 will go over to Dyre Avenue, the Dyre Avenue redbirds will be scrapped along with the Pelham redbirds, last the R-36WF and mainline will be scrapped and replaced by the R-62A's from the 6 line and maybe the 3 line I dont think there is enough Pelham R-62A's to replace the Flushing fleet.Therfore the R-142's will run on the 2,5 and maybe the 3 and perhaps replacing the redbirds on the 4.
The R26 thru R29 are slightly over 400 cars, which are the likely ones to go offshore. I don't see how R142's can go to the 3 if they require 9 cars trains. Some of its R62A's will have to go to Corona to make up 11 car trains. Some of them will have to get double-tripcocks to pilot consists to Coney Island.
I guess you can count 9486-87 and 9540-41 in. Something tells me based on the number of 142As in service on the 6, some of these redbirds on that line could be on the chopping block.
Any word on how they're going to be removed from the property?
-Stef
They are building a carfloat at 207 Street Yard for the purpose of removing shells from the property. BTW, Mark told me they have lots of deadlined cars there waiting. I "broke" him in Wednesday when I first learned his conductor's uniform wasn't bogus. The Subtalk crew from Hell.
HA! Mark told he was having one hell of a day yesterday on the F. Apparently his traing got rerouted, but the tower people couldn't make up their minds where to send his train.... I was working in the booth at Stillwell when he walked by.
-Stef
He told me about that. You work Stillwell regularly?
I justed started this particular job this past Saturday, and I will be there every Saturday during the PM Tour giving lunch to the booths along the N Line, in addition to working at Stillwell. This is in effect for what's left of the Station Agent's Pick.
-Stef
Yipe ... subtalkers taking over the transit authority ... soon it'll be dogs and cats living together and redbirds on the IND ...
SUBTALKERS TAKE OVER THE TA
The entire R142/142As fleet is scrapped . The IRT has a new "redbird only" policy--resulting in major cuts in service unitl the new bondo, A/C-less cars can be ordered.
The BMT restores its route number system, extending it randomly onto the IND. The R68/R68A fleet is scrapped, to be replaced with museum R10 cars--resulting in more cuts in service.
The biggest regional hit song on NY radio: "Where the hell does this train go?" by the Sweat Riders.
:-) Andrew
And the downside of this would be? :)
Not all of us are crazy.
I know. I know. I was being facetious.
:-) Andrew
I hear Heypaul is taking over as TA chairman.:-)
Besides the soon-to-go money train, there are a number of R12-R22 cars in work train service. Any plans to have some Redbirds take over their roles, and send these older R units offshore instead ?
Or should it be "Bye-bye (Red) Birdies"?:-)
How about Surfs up Dude?
Does anybody have a full car roster with renumberings or know of a source for one?
We got our first TV in 1952. Our very elaborate rooftop antenna was only about 60 feet from the Jamaica el. Every time a train would pass. it would raise havoc with our TV picture, but not affect the sound. The problem resolved itself in later years, but I always wondered why we had the problem at all.
Pookahs and GHOSTS ... wasn't until the movie "The Exorcist" that those problems began to fade ... DX'ing signals from the 3rd Avenue El. WEIRD things transpired up on the IRT ... and it caused sunspots in Brooklyn ...
I lived east of Crescent St, so the el was between our antenna and the transmitter, which I believe, back then was from Manhattan. I guess the trains interupted the video signal.
Reflections is reflections, even if they're briefly lived. Ask the folks in the Bronx what happened to their roof antennas when World Trade went up and screwed up EVERYTHING ... "TelePrompTer Manhattan Cable" wouldn't have been viable without that permascrewup ... now it's TimeofyourAOLWeenie Cable (our motto, "if it aint HBO, it sucks") ... of course, we in the Bronx also got to enjoy "airplane flutter" as La Guardia made them "come around again" ... quit your whining. Nobody up north of you is the least bit sympathetic. Heh.
The video problem seemed to disappear before I left the city in '57, but I really don't know what happened to correct it.
I have to log off to go to a birthday dinner, but I have enjoyed this posting time. It was really nice to have someone answer a post I made.
You're welcome ... shoulda gone to bed hours ago but enjoyed it all just the same ... after 36 hours on shift, it's hard to find the same window to fall through to sleep that went by a day ago. :)
Moo! :)
hello please cheack out crazy taxi 2 for the dreamcast it has various locations in nyc. there are R110 a in the subway mentions of the a,b, c, d and 1,9 at the 81st station as wel as the orions that circle the city and the double buses enjoy the bus termial .
My kids have Crazy Taxi. The SF locales are rather interesting. Not like Train SImulator but you can crash into cable cars.
I don't think I would get the new Crazy Taxi unless my kids wanted it. They got bored with the first quickly.
Besides, Dreamcast is supposed to be going down the tubes, right?
When was the Hudson line built down the west side of Manhattan? When was it replaced with the currently abandoned elevated line?
I saw a couple of these signs one right before the curve at Grand Central, and after the station and just beyond the interlocking,its yellow and black,I know what the others signs mean but I dont know what WD stands for.
Wheel Detector.
Lunar signals installed on mostly older BRT and IRT trackage areas for extra secuirty in conjunction with automatics. Purpose is to keep MUs more of a safer distance between themselves.
Also used to control train speed.
Negative.
The purpose of the WD is to control the speed of a train. 85% of the time, a switch is involved. If a train goes over the posted WD speed limit, special stop arms that are not connected with automatic signals come up and trip the train. Only the Tower Operator can reset the WD in the event of an overspeed.
WD signals came about as a direct result of the Union Square crash. Also WD's are located in various locations throughout the system.
Are they often used in conjunction with track work? I've seen them on only while the tunnels were filled with track workers during major GOs, such as the one a few weeks back where uptown 6 service was express only between Bklyn Bridge and 42nd and the same for Downtown between 125 and 42nd.
Dan
Likewise, I've only seen the WDs on the 1/2/3/9 approaching Times Square active during the weekends, with the construction in full swing....
Every time, the T/O has dropped to slooooooow speeds going through, usually until a full car length past the WD END sign. I'd assume there'd be just as much hell to pay if they tripped a single-shot timer signal - why the extreme reaction?
The WD's at Times Square are on during most weekends lately because all service is running on 1 track from 72 to 42. So 2 & 3 service is crossed back to 2 track south of Times Square.
The reason we slow down so much is because the WD's measure axle speed, so that if you over speed any time in WD area your train will be tripped and you will be in trouble.
To reiterate Carzy, the WD measures the speed, takes a reading if you will. Regular GRADE TIMERS (GT) do not measure the speed of the train per say must just time it from signal to signal so you can bust the GT speed limit without tripping but bust a WD and that is it.
I know that is what I said IF YOU OVER SPEED ANYWHERE IN TH WD AREA YOUR TRAIN WILL BE TRIPPED.
I was trying to point out the WD actualy measures the speed where a GT does not measure the actual speed. Sorry to step on your brake handle.
Apology accepted
I understand how the WDs work, just curious why most T/Os tend to go much slower than the posted limit. I'd understand doing 15 mph across a WD set to 20, but not the ~3 mph that seems prevalent!
Four letter explanation: F E A R ... trip one of those, it's your last trip.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most WD installations, unlike conventional timers, let you know if they're planning to trip you? I thought that most WDs glow steady lunar white when active, and flash lunar when you've gotten 'em angry.
Mark
That's how I understand it too ... bear in mind, they're way past my own time so I can only go on what I hear here ... but some of the current "staff" I've talked to tell me that they treat them like rattlers in the desert ... (grin)
If you approach them at over the posted speed, they are flashing. Once you have come down to the required speed, they go steady. Should you then overspeed after it has gone steady, that one will trip you. After you pass the last steady lunar white, there is usually the greater part of atrain length before you come to the WD END sign. Any overspeed in that area will also trip you. Since we all know that the posted speeds for WD and GT areas are not correct, better to go slower.
As an aside, anyone know how to beat the rap if you hit a red signal in a GT area, where the previous signal had an illuminated S or D?
>>>>As an aside, anyone know how to beat the rap if you hit a red signal in a GT area, where the previous signal had an illuminated S or D?
If it's a home ball, and you hit it, go down to the roadbed and step on the stop arm of the home ball until it retains. Then go back to your cab, take off, and pray to God that Control isn't calling for your head.
Fortunately, I haven't had to do this. Yet.
There is actually a Bulletin that gives you an out. Go find a copy of 35-98, which has not been rescinded.
The bulletin begins by quoting Rule 98-g, then continues on with instructions for TOs observing a caution signal (yellow aspect).
It then specifically emphasizes that: caution signals associated with Grade Time areas displaying an illuminated "S" or "D" are exempt from the above instructions. Train Operators operating in Grade Time areas governed by these signals will operate in accordance with the posted speeds.
But if you hit the signal, you must have been operating overspeed, eh?
Also, technically, I think that portion of the bulletin is wrong.
I wonder why it was issued? If you have just passed a yellow/S,
you should be prepared to stop clear of the next red signal
But if you hit the signal, you must have been operating overspeed, eh?
Ride a 1 from 103 to 96. The area is posted GT 30; if I did 30 (hell if I do better than 25), I will hit an automatic and at least one of the two homeballs there.
Also, technically, I think that portion of the bulletin is wrong.
I wonder why it was issued? If you have just passed a yellow/S, you should be prepared to stop clear of the next red signal.
I agree. Technically, it is wrong. However, since it is written as a bulletin that has not yet been rescinded or superceded by another one, its illogic stands. A nameless Superintendant at Jay St has concurred with my reading of this particular bulletin, although he has promised to re-issue a corrected version.
Most GTs are based on older mechanical timing relays. They
can start to get slower with age if they aren't properly
inspected and maintained. WD's are microprocessor based and
they generally keep pretty accurate time.
That may be so, but when the TA installed the speedometers in most cabs they admitted they were accurate to within a couple of mph. So a WD maybe computer accurate while your speedometer gives you a general idea. That is why T/O's go so sloooow through WD areas. It's even more fun when you have a redbird w/o a speedometer and try to gauge how fast you're going. WD sign says 10 am I going 9,10 or 11 hard to tell till oops BIE victim of a WD.
And that's why a T/O goes slow through the WD. When I'm working the N, going into Pacific Street, I make sure that I'm not doing any faster than 6 mph through the WD10 area. I don't feel like visiting Jay Street anytime soon.
Rule of thumb for T/O's:
When in WD territory, do HALF the posted speed. One former T/O that I know (he voluntarily went back to Tower Operator) got tripped by the WD north of Pacific Street while working the N line which was posted at 10 MPH. When supervision printed the readout from the WD, the signal clocked him at 10.01 MPH. I kid you not.
Control Center squashed the overspeed.
Great Googley-Moogley!
Talk aboutmicro management. In the end I'm gald for the MM that some one used discression and did not persue for .01 mph.
The price the majority pay for the gross mistakes of the very small minority.
I know the system has to comply with FRA or other Fed agencies if they don't want to be blackmailed over Federal Funding. As Rush Limbaugh says "Follow the Money Trail"
Burn the Slow orders Trip the Timers
Curt
The first signal will be a steady white light to let you know the WD is active and to SLOOOOOOW down. After that they will flash until you meet the required speed requirements and then go a steady white light. As to why we slow down so much: You learn very quickly not to trust any signal with a posted speed whether it is a grade timer or a signal on station time.
I saw that one Sunday,just before the Grand Central station as I was riding the Dyre Avenue redbird,I like looking out the window at the various signal formations.There another WD sign just beyond the Grand Central station around the interlocking northbound.There was a bright light like a car light with, WD sign.
It stands for "Wheel Detector." When its flashing, its activated and the speed restriction it carries is in effect.
Actually, the WD trips reset themselves after about a minute. However, when they are tripped, they set off an alarm in the tower. It is this alarm that can only be reset by the Tower Operator. This way the TW/O will know about an overspeed, even if he is away from the board at the time it happens (bathroom break).
A new Coca-Cola commercial portrays how cool it is to drink a Coke and stay on your train. The scenes are set on the Meetro-North viaduct, with the Coca Cola patrons riding the New Haven Line. Nice interior and exterior shots. One shot from a camera set on a nearby roof.
Yes, I enjoy the commercial too. It's been around for about 2 months.
Did you notice the "V" covering over the "M" on the outside of the cars?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, I guess I missed it. I guess MTA didn't want to "copay" for the commercial.
Yes. It's a Metro-North train in disguise, looking like it's heading through the Bronx.
"I wished we could stay on that train forever." They should have taken the LIRR.
:-) Andrew
("I wished we could stay on that train forever." They should have taken the LIRR.)
They could get on the express at Great Neck. Fly like a bat to Long Island City, then stop in front of the East River tunnels. And wait. And wait. And wait. They could finish at least a couple of bottles of Coke in that time.
It's all surface and open cut through the Bronx. It's heading through Manhattan.
The kicker is that the A/C is not working and everybody is sweating
like basketball players. (The Philly 76ers were sweating like mad, but we're going to the finals so the Lakers can kick our a...s.)
Chuck Greene
An interesting observation. I'll bet that's why we don't see an MTA logo on the outside.
Peace,
ANDEE
You were just excited about the outcome!
Go 76ers! Good team or not, the people of Los Angeles do not deserve even one championship, let alone a repeat.
Go 76ers too! Can you imagine if they were healthy? They would be a juggernaught. (sp)
Yesterday I went to Manassas, Viginia to attend the Manassas Heritage Railway Festival. I asked a guy who was at the table with current Amtrak schedules why there is no Amtrak Northeast Schedule Booklet.
I got a reasonable answer. He says that because more Acela Express trainsets are in service, frequent schedule changes are necessary during this summer. Printing schedule booklets would cost too much with frequent schedule changes. Therefore, Amtrak only prints Northeast schedule strips during this summer.
Chaohwa
Did you try Union Station in DC to see if they have it?
I go to Union Station three times a week to see whether the Northeast Schedule booklet comes out. However, I only see those simplified schedule strips so far.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa you are correct. I was told at both Boston South Station and NY Penn Station that no books will be available this summer. The next tentative schedule change is July 9, when a 5th AE BOS-NYP (weekday) and 3rd AE BOS-NYP (weekend) trip will be added.
Has anyone seen this TV commercial?
Can you tell me what subway system it was filmed on?
I've seen the same commercials, and my guess is Paris Metro. It certainly wasn't any system in the US nor London. But the trains and stations seem to bear a striking resemblance to the Paris trains I've seen pictured on this site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Definitely not Paris unless it's a mocked-up train, both interior and exterior. The view from the front of the train of the subway station looks like Paris, so checking other French systems I think it might be Marseilles, France. The white-colored train seems to be a match.
-Dave
Actually, it's an actual train on the Metro in Barcelona, Spain.
Thank You! The mystery is solved.
See http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=225435
-Hank
Did anyone else notice that the 1965 softcover book about SIRT that was on eBay sold for over $79.00.
Paul said the book sold new for $1.25. I said it would probably go for 20 or 30 times its original price. That works out to almost 64 times its original price.
WOW!!!!!
AFAIK, that's a new high. Copies earlier went in the low-mid $60s. I notice that three people sniped the book at the last minute. Thirty seconds before closing it was still about $30.
A complete set (all 7 volumes) of Seyfried's LIRR hisory recently went for over $800. I wish I could have afforded that. There can't be more than 600 or so complete sets, since I think that was the press run of the first volume, but there have to be a lot fewer complete sets, since many people (like me) have some of the volumes but are missing others.
I wonder what the highest price for a transit-related history has been? Anyone know of single volumes that have gone for over $100? $200? Higher?
A recent book Evolution of the New York Subway by Sansone sold on Ebay some months ago for around $130.00. Of course the book when it was released was $50. or $60.
There was a re-print of at least one in the series: Brooklyn Rapid Transit Trolley Lines in Queens, by Vincent F. Seyfried.
Originally 1959, re-printed 1998, very afforadably priced.
BTW, I'm still looking for the one that covers Queens & is said to have a chapter on NY & Queens County Ry, aka Queens Surface.
Mr t__:^)
Vol. 1 of the late Harre Demoro's two-volume work on the Key System was offered at the EPTC meet by a dealer for $200. The same dealer had vol. 2 priced at $125 and would sell them as a set for $290. They were in very good plus condition - minor rips were visible in the dustjackets - can't tell about the rest since they were wrapped in plastic. I don't know if they sold. (I have a set, thank you, for which I paid $50 new [total list was $66], a couple of years after they came out.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can tell you that there are two volumes by Sebree and Ward from Interurban Press:Transit's Stepchild-The Trolley Coach and The Trolley Coach in North America which are incredibly scarce and regularly sell for over $100 per volume.I paid $175 for both volumes purchased separately and felt I got a very fair deal.The books are virtually unobtainable and really cover the subject exhaustively.It seems the late Harry DeMorro's works are very popular-no wonder,because he did such a great job.I found a bunch of old "Railroad"magazines in a used bookstore and one of them from 1948,I believe, has a good article on the SIRT with photos-this was when all three lines still ran.
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
There will be a public hearing regarding federal funding requests for the 2002 fiscal year of MTA's capital budget. It will be:
Wednesday, June 6, 2001
MTA Headquarters
5th Floor Boardroom
347 Madison Av
New York NY 10017
TIME: 4:30 PM
I encourage you to attend, if you can. I am in Philly, so I won't be able to make it to this one.
Someof the projects listed include:
1. East Side Access, LIRR-GCT (preliminary engineering, construction activity, design activity)
2. Second Av subway (preliminary engineering activity on full-length subway)
3. Grand Central Station Rehabilitation/repair
4. Rehabilitation of White Plains Road subway line in the Bronx, including ADA upgrades to several stations
5. Times Square Rehab and ADA
6. Marcy Ave (J) rehab and ADA
7. Full ADA of West 4th Street, 125 St, and Euclid Av stations on 8th Av line and tunnel rehab
8. Rehab of 74th St/Broadway -ADA
9. Harlem line 3rd track program
10. Pascack Valley line upgrade- $11 million
There is one project I found which will be controversial on Subtalk. MTA wants to reduce the Nassau St line in Manhattan from four tracks to two on a specific segment to reduce the size of one station, remove platforms, reduce maintenance expenses, and improve customer safety.
MTA asserts that the J operates as a two track line already.
If I have the URL right, here it is: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/ffa/2002page43.htm
Whatever your opinions are, write to MTA or go to the meeting and speak.
There is one project I found which will be controversial on Subtalk. MTA wants to reduce the Nassau St line in Manhattan from four tracks to two on a specific segment to reduce the size of one station, remove platforms, reduce maintenance expenses, and improve customer safety.
MTA asserts that the J operates as a two track line already.
I suspect that this has to do with the Canal Street station, where they want to eliminate the two Northbound tracks and the Northbound platform and connect the current Southbound center track (which terminates at the south end of the station) so that it becomes the new Northbound track. In addition to the benefits(?) you mention, this project is also supposed to reduce the number of curves on the line.
In my post on the capital budget '02 hearing, I neglected to mention that one of the items is a signal replacement program for the "7" train, which specifies preparation for installation of CBTC.
Well then they might want to consider also upgrading the Corona barn to handle subway cars that will be compatible with CBTC.
Yes. I believe that part of the 02 capital plan, at least in part.
yea. In the MTA website it says that cbtc is going to be installed and also upgrade Corona yard. with all this i do expect to see the r142's right?
Eventually.
Not necessarily. When CBTC was tested recently on the express tracks of the F line between Church Avenue and Seventh Avenue, R-42s were used and the equipment was housed in #2 cabs. Moreover, the original CBTC specification for the Canarsie Line called for several R-42s to get "limited" CBTC capability (emergency braking control, mostly).
With the linking of most R-62As into 5-car units, there are plenty of unused cabs (8, in fact, per unit) in which CBTC equipment can be housed. Nobody has ever said that CBTC-equipped subway cars also have to have AC propulsion, regenerative braking, and the other "doodads" with which the new cars have been outfitted.
David
Then again....haan't the MTA been testing AC traction motors on some older equipment?
ok. the r62's can be cbtc equiped. but the MTA will renovate the corona yard. once that is done by 2002, the r142's could be maintained there. also we will be the first IRT to get CBTC. dont the TA want to test out CBTC with the 142's? come on,if you put r142's in the Bronx where is more worse than Corona, the TA can putthem here. besides, what important places does the 4,5,or 6 serves? ok yankee stadium. the 7 serves shea stadium and the U.S open, an event that brings people here nation wide. and also, the 7 will be extended to the Javits center. i just hope i see some r142's on the 7 by 2004. the TA has to use some common sence.
or if not. split the 2 rolling stock in each line. half r62's and half r142's. like that every line would be equal, and people like me would be happy. isn't this good guys? give me your opinion
Don't expect CBTC on the Flushing any time soon. CBTC in still in the working-out-the-bugs phase. Flushing is high on the list once it's ready, but the old signals can't wait, so they are replacing them now. It is a conventional signal job, but designed to have CBTC installed as well. The CBTC will be installed later.
My understanding (as yet incomplete) is that the first few CBTC lines will also have conventional signals, so older equipment can operate on it as well, and a back-up is available in case of a CBTC failure. Canarsie, Culver, and Flushing will be done this way. Later, as the fleet changes over and the kinks are worked out of CBTC, signal replacement will proceed without visible signals. Obviously, non-CBTC rolling stock will not be able to run on lines with no visible signals.
The need to transition from one type of car to another complicates things.
Fleet assignments are not for your pleasure. Contracts are kept together to ease mantainence so 1 shop doesn't need to stock parts for so many contracts.
You are correct. The R-142 per se is not required for CBTC. I'm just musing about what happens 25 years down the road...maybe...
Wouldn't it be much easyer to retrofit R142 having a standardized interface than R62?
Arti
It appears that the Flushing Line fleet will consist of R-62As, not R-62s. The R-62A fleet is being retrofitted with Adtranz E-CAM controllers, which may lend themselves more easily to CBTC upgrade than the GE SCM controllers on the R-62s, for example. As for LonWorks (or whatever comes next), that can be retrofitted to the cars if necessary and desirable.
David
Wouldn't retrofitting R142s be the cheapest solution?
Arti
Probably (and I'm guessing here, as I am not an engineer), but NYCT may have other reasons for retrofitting older equipment -- if, in fact, that's what they're going to do...and we don't know that.
David
but remember! r62a's coming to the 7 is just a rumor. the MTA knows which stock is coming to the 7. fo my opinion it is going to be the r142's because they are going to upgrade corona yard with 142's technology
The R62As are going to the 7 Line. It's going to take a few years for them to get Corona upgraded. Till then R142s/R142As won't be there.
Because of a brake pipe rupture on the 142 Saturday on the 6 ,scrapping of certain redbirds will be delayed. Due to an Inspection of all 142's.Got the Info while working at the East Sunday.
Good. The R46 was 3-5 years old before the truck-cracking problem was raging enough for the R16's to go back into service so the R44's could surrender their trucks.
The difference here my friend is that it was a "standard" brake pipe rupture. It's not something that is isolated to the R142s. Any subway car with brakes could be affected. Perhaps the MTA could dig up some subway car without brakes and then this little problem could be solved. But then, there would be all sorts of other wacky problems.
Th point is it can take several years for a fleet-wide bug to occur, no one has a crystal ball, and then have a massive effect due to the large quantity. I wasn't referring to the isolated busted brake valve problem.
Perhaps the MTA could dig up some subway car without brakes and then this little problem could be solved.
There are 1400 of them. They're called "Redbirds."
I see! So that was the plan all along! How could I be so foolish! The MTA in all of their infinite wisdom is going to do away with cars with working breaks and good technology in favor of the simple and brakeless design! I mean, who needs good cars with brakes when we can have rusty old shells without those pesky brakes and valve ruptures! It's all so clear to me now!
Those Redbirds, is there anything they can't do!
You are so damned sarcastic. Do you remember the R44 disaster ???, the R46 disaster ??? You're logic would have scarpped the R16's and the system would have been ever closer to collapse than it was in the early 1980's. We had shortened trains and entire lettered routes suspended. I TOLD YOU that NO ONE has a crystal ball, not even YOU as to what will happen in 3 years and it is a good isea to keep some not all of which are as rusted out as the R26's.
>>>You are so damned sarcastic.<<<
Thanks. It's a gift. But seriously, calm down. You know the Pig and I love to rag on the Rustbirds. It's fun. As for the R44/46 fiasco, the R142s are no where near that! That little braking problem was fixed, brake valve ruptures can occur on any type of car, yes, even those beloved rusted old shells. And really my friend, I doubt malfunctioning automatic announcments will bring the system to a grinding halt. If it does, perhaps I'm giving NYC too much credit.
As for keeping the Rustbirds around as spares, Train Dude has stated that there will be about seven train sets stored for emergency use. I don't forsee them ever leaving that track.
From what I've heard from hearsay the R10 had truck cracking problems too when new...Sea Beach ballasted track all went well in tests but once on the IND concrete roadbed they didn't hold up...corrections were made and the trucks went on to perform yeoman service on thousands of cars to follow. The cracking story told me by someone outside the rail industry.
From my guru who was a TA car shop supervisor and was originally from the IRT Main shop "the R1-9 truck was the worst truck in the history of railroading" which may have been his personal feelings. He told me (in the early 60's) that a lot of overtime was earned welding those trucks due to cracking. Doesn't change my feelings for those cars though.
I wondered why when I read news clippings about the R46 truck why Rockwell produced a lemon truck when their other product supported thousands of 200 ton locomotives flawlessly. You'd think they'd have superb engineering, unless it was a bureacratic design. Remember the bus bureacracy built...the Grummans?
Heh. The Flxibles that dropped motors all over the highway?
On the R1/9 truck issues in the 60's, from what I heard at Coney the real problem was failure to detect hotboxes until after the entire truck was smoking. That may have also been the logic behind putting them out in open air for better cooling perhaps. But they did have problems as they made it into the early 70's ... each consist seemed to come with a free car inspector inside. And the hammer boys would usually ALSO be found at each express stop just so they'd move out of there. They were "interesting" times. :)
And yeah, the cement bed and half-ties sure did help to amplify the R10's ...
Yep, long live the Thunderbirds! Just where did the inspectors bang their hammers? I get the impression it's much the same as banging the top of a TV set when the picture wasn't right.:-)
Usually the door mechas to move a stuck valve ... the "hammer guys" phrase was more used as a means of torturing those guys - even though you'd be glad to see them and all, job titles prevented you from going back and doing certain things when indication was elusive. But at the time I was on the railroad, things were *so* bad, they'd literally be roving minstrels, stationed at most express stops who'd literally be riding around with bubble gum and bailing wire just to make sure your wreck got out of their territory.
But largely they were there to get doors closed, squirt some oil on journals or beating a brake cylinder so it would let go.
>>>Remember the bus bureacracy built...the Grummans?<<<
Ah, but bureacracy also built the RTS, the best bus ever designed. It's like taking the Triplex, Q-Type, BMT Standard, Gibbs Hi-V, and R32 and rolling them all into one, with a MUCH better look.
Thanks for the tip on the RTS bus. I thought that was strictly private capital/manufacturer thing just like the GMC's of years past that seemed to last so long..these have gone beyond anything I knew in youth..some RTS are at or near their 20th birthday? Or am I thinking of something else.
Hadn't ridden a single NYC bus that felt beaten last time I was there.
There are a few in NYC approaching the big 20, and on e that's already there.
2270 is the oldest RTS in revenue service. It wa built in 1981. It's stationed in SI and is used on school trips.
2660 is a 1982 RTS bus also stationed in SIs Yukon Depot, it can be used whenever, wherever.
PA1751, PA1767, PA1773, and PA1852 are all 1982 suburban RTS coaches stationed out of Queens Village Depot.
PA1826 is another 1982 coach. It was recently reactivated and put in service in Manhattan. To think, a 19 year old bus being re-activated with a new coat of paint while 7 and 8 year old Orions sit in a storage yard. That says something about those old workhorses.
Amazing. Queens Surface just last year retired their RTSs from (I believe) 1980-1981. These were built before A/C became standard so they had the A/C unit bolted onto the back of the bus--it was a very unusual look.
Dan
? how many years before the delay (s ) again ? .........hmmmmmm......!!////////////??
or should the r-142s be scrapped ?? .......... LOL !!!
Here's a little analogy...
Buses : Neighborhood Property Value as Salmonella : SubTalk
I have your Salmonella in my back pocket !!!
yep the new " junkers " the -scrap-ready-made-r142s- prove our point over and over again
the good old redbirds were built better than the new INPORTED junk of today !!! he he he he !
see you in nyc this october south ferry !!!
LOL!!!
OK... I misread the Thread title... I thought it
said Redbird 9 lives (which it DOES); however, I
took it to mean "Redbird (on) 9 (train) Lives"....
Does anyone know if the r110a has been scrapped yet, it would really be ashamed if they (the t/a) were to destroy a really good set of subway cars.
No, it hasn't been scrapped, YET. Not sure where it is though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last I heard: Pitkin Yard.
Half is at Pikin Yard and the other half at 207 yard.
Robert
I saw all 10 cars at Pitkin Yard last Sunday.
Then they moved the other five to Pikin yard since I was at 207 yard for the R143's dilivers.
Robert
So, whats going to happen to the 110b cars? Are they still running on the ''C''line. A nice place for them would be the J. ALONG with the R143'S of course.
Ok..... Now I would really like to know what's up with the enchanted Q Types that have 9 Lives over at the SBK Yard. They have been moved out of the yard and into a spur, just outside of the junction with the West End at 3rd Avenue. The question seems to be: Are they portected from the scrapper's torch? Other cars have come and gone, but these seem to be holding on. How strange.... I hope these don't outlive the last redbirds! Heh.
What about the SBK yard? Getting upgraded?
-Stef
Stef - how many "Q" types did you see - were they
3-car A-B-C complete set(s) - one or more ---or
just "B" trailer cars that are used in work service
as crew and material storage /transport units;
Can you inform me (& us at the subtalk) as to what
& how many exactly you saw....and were they free
standing or in some sort of work train consist?
Thanks - Joe /NYCMT-EL
These are old workhorses that were sent to the scrap line recently after serving on the old pump train, and no longer have anything salvageable (component wise). The car bodies are in pretty bad shape. Before heading to scrap, they were stored at Coney Island Yard.
-Stef
Stef, the Transit Museum has a hold on these cars.
Well if they can fix them, great, but they're hanging on the scrap line and aren't getting any better. Shouldn't they be at Coney with the other Museum Cars?
Besides much of what made those Q Cars function is gone, and who's going to donate parts, Branford?
-Stef
The hold is for everything below the floor. I don't think they are
interested in the bodies.
You must mean the trucks..... Let'em lie the carbodies to the side of the scrap yard, and transport those trucks down to Coney Island Yard. Sooner or later those Qs are going to be disposed of.
-Stef
"What about the SBK yard? Getting upgraded? "
No, just adding tracks to fill them up with Redbirds, either as mothball storage or as a receiving yard for Redbirds heading for scrap.
Bill "Newkirk"
6351-55 and 6391-95 were transferred to the East a little over an hour ago. 6391-95's floors and seats are still covered with paper. The shop's people fixed them up and it was time to send them home.
-Stef
Stef,
I have both those sets on the Delivery list as having arrived in December 2000. Are you sure those weren't on the property already?
-Dave
The information that you got originally is correct; no change to the delivery page is necessary. What I wrote last night, was in refernce to the cars coming back from 207 St Yard after modifications.
-Stef
2 PICTURES of Pitkin El Demolition.......courtesy of BMTMan
Another piece of the old BMT is diasppearing !
Bill "Newkirk"
Kinda reminds me when I was a kid watching them demolish the Jamaica el at Supthin Blvd while waiting for a Q44 bus to the Bronx zoo.
Besides Karl B and myself I wonder how many others on board here rode the remains of the Fulton el thru that area and out Pitkin and Liberty to Lefferts [the destination signs still said Lefferts AVE not BLVD on the el cars] before the line shut down [April 56].
Do you remember the old side platform station at Crescent & Liberty, and how narrow it was on the ends? I got on several times at Crescent & Liberty to go to Eastern Parkway, or to Bridge-Jay, but I never did ride the train to Rockaway Ave. Standing on that station platform in the winter when the wind was really blowing was one scary experience.
The two curves onto Euclid were something else too!
I always wondered why the TA insisted on calling it Lefferts Ave, when everyone else called it Lefferts Blvd.
i believe you when you say that station was scary. i use to hold on for dear life years ago when i use to wait for the q cars on the myrtle ave el at broadway and myrtle av. but i am sorry to hear that they are reducing that structure. it is a very impressive structure
You mean there was direct Fulton/Broadway/Lexington Ave. el service at one time?
It was known as the Fulton-Lex Line, and ran from Bridge-Jay St to Grant Ave. During rush hours they operated six car trains of the 1300 series BU's. Some trains ran through to Lefferts Ave. Trains were put together and taken apart on the center track east of the Grant Ave station.
It was very similar to the rush hour Lexington Ave Line operation at 111th St and Jamaica Ave, except that the Lex ran five car trains of 600, 900, 1200 & 1400 BU's.
This ended with the closing of the Lexington Ave el structure on Oct. 13th, 1950.
Didn't 1000 convertable BUs once run on the Lexington Line???
If they did it had to be before my time, I can only remember back to about 1941! I never saw them there, and don't recall ever seeing pictures of them on the "Lex".
Again refer to the Brooklyn Elevated Book...nothing in railroading is ground in stone! Although the 1000's were basically Southern cars they served on Eastern lines as well. There's a photo of one on the Broadway-Brooklyn el which would have been a Lex train; think there's also a shot of one on Fulton.
They were scrapped before Karl B's time or my time.. at least memory period but it has been done.
I remember Crescent [on Liberty] well enough but don't remember the narrow platforms at the end. I think that was a cheap way of extending platforms done long ago; I've seen similar in Manhattan el pix, since you mention it.
I always found it interesting that in addition to the Crescent St curve on Bway-Jamaica line being an S curve the Fulton had one in the same general vicinity..not far away. Think the Fulton one was gentler?
Don't forget the only 1400 BU's around were I believe l448 and 1482 which were rebuilds from other types, all real 1400's became Q's. Also 1261 and another 1200 were similar.
I expect that the Lefferts AVE signs were a carryover from years past that were never changed. A lot of streets/avenues in Queens were renamed Boulevard at some time if I'm not mistaken.Some pop singer in the 60's--one of Frankie Laines' last records perhaps, if it was he, did a number called "Every Street's a Boulevard in old NY"...when I heard it I though he must have spent all his time in Queens.
I know that BU's 1227, 1240, 1246, 1254, 1261, 1282 & 1286 were all painted green in the late 1940's. There were a number of other 1200's, but they were still painted brown, and until they were painted green I did not try to keep track of them back then. Of the green cars 1261, 1282 & 1286 must have been renumbered cars since the original cars with those numbers went into the C & Q conversion program. I'm sure that there were more that I don't know about. About 75 of the 1200's were rebuilt into either C's or Q's.
I remember 1448 & 1482 as being the only cars carrying 1400 numbers in those days. Both were green, and if I remember correctly, they both had foldover seating like the 1300's, but they were definately not convertibles.
Photo in The Brooklyn Elevated book shows one of those ersatz 1400's with the walkover seats. They were wood...no cushions; likewise they weren't convertibles as you say. Believe the arch roof 1000 series had wood seats too.
Thank heavens for the green paint job. Had those cars looking good until the end of their lives.
Thanks for posting the photos.
Looks like one girder may remain for awhile
since a signal cable runs along it.
I don't mean to appear to be without sentiment but what's the big deal? That section hasn't been used since 1956! I'm all for preserving Els but with one caveat; it has to be in use. Otherwise you're just left with huge chunks of steel that serve no useful purpose.
E_DOG
how far along are they with demolition and when do they expect to have the manhattan bound track re:located. i am not in traveling distance to nyc to see the changes. thanks for any info that can be provided. "jv"
Today's edition of the Destination:Freedom Newsletter talks about high speed rail for Florida, and the tentative schedule for a fifth Acela Express round-trip between Boston and NYC beginning July 9th.
And I thought this was going to be a weather report! I wanted to know why they clock the speed of rain in Florida and what constitutes a high speed rain.
Must have been one of those Freudian slip typos. "Rain" could have been "Train" or "Rail."
Yeah, it rains at high-speed in Florida, but most everywhere else too. According to the Glossary of Meteorology (second edition) (American Meteorological Society; 2000; Todd Glickman, Editor), the terminal velocity of a raindrop is about 12 meters per second. Thunderstorm downdrafts can reach 100 knots in the most severe storms, and will "push" rain down as well.
In case you were wondering, drizzle drops measure <=0.2mm and raindrops are >0.2mm.
Rain (and wind) velocity can be measured by Doppler radar, just like the speedometers on the subway measure speed (WHEW! CONNECTED ON TOPIC!).
The thing that the article didn't mention is that if they want really fast trains, I have 3 suggestions:
1) ELECTRIFY
2) ELECTRIFY
3) ELECTRIFY
The problems with Diesels is that they must not only carry their own power plant, but they must carry their own fuel as well (which adds more mass, thus makes a train go slower). Plus The Acela Express could go from Boston to Miami if electrified, and after that, once all of The Acela trainsets are in, then that will free up The Toasters for other duties.
I believe an incremental approach is the only way anything will happen. Get the trains running first; electrify later.
With new subway cars coming online and into service. R-142/ 142a and eventually R-143's. Where is the TA storing the Red Birds that were replaced so far? Non of them are off the TA property already are they? Or is the Subway service expanded that much that the Red Birds are still being used? Any info would be helpful......
A certain transfer point in brooklyn (behind COSTCO) is getting extra tracks added for the last movement of the redbirds. (Sniff Sniff)
Right now, the birds seem to still be in place. Why? The R-142's still have enough problems that you might need them one day, but not the next.
While I do hate them birds, It would be a good idea to keep about 100 or so for expanded service: 5 extra Lex trains, 5 extra 7th av trains. Plus, the TA is already going to net a gain of something like 120 extra cars from the R-142 order.
Cars 7834-39 are already being stripped in 207th St yard.
4 GE R-32's were on the next track in the shop, and the worlers said these were probably being fixed. I had just seen the other 6 coupled together moving around the yard outside.
"Cars 7834-39 are already being stripped in 207th St yard."
You wanna run that by me one more time !
Bill "Newkirk"
True. The bodies are propped up on stands, and they were *tearing* out the lights and wiring. The AC/s were all opened up, the doors and window frames gone. The workers said they were being stripped for good, while the workers on the 4 GE 32's said those were probably being fixed.
They Are going to store them in the ocean. NO kidding!
Where have all the Redbirds gone,
long time passing.
Where have all the Redbirds gone,
long time passing.
They have gone to Davy Jones Locker,
long time passing.
Where have all the Token Booth Agents gone,
long time passing ....
Any one else remember that folk song ?
Mr t__:^)
"Any one else remember that folk song ?
Mr t__:^)"
"Where Have All The Flowers Gone ?"
written by Pete Seeger, sung by The Kingston Trio and others.
Bill "Newkirk"
yes i do on my transistor pocket radio back in the early 1960s !!!
That's the one ... it ends with "gone to grave yards every one",
opps that's the next to last. The last is "gone to flowers every one", but in this case "gone to the fishes every one".
Mr t__:^)
Can somebody please tell me why I am not able to click onto the Archives without getting a reload message???? It's been going on for a week!! T on the F......
The archives are offline and will remain so for a while. I don't have the server capacity to serve them all. Sorry!
Maybe you can sell the archives on a CD!
When (and if) you ever bring the archives back, please let us know.
- Lyle Goldman
There is an LIRR station in Garden City on the Hempstead line called "Country Life Press." How did this station get its name?
Yes, there is such a station on the Hempstead branch. It was and it is used by employees of the Country Life Press publishing company. I think there is more details about it in the LIRR History web site.
www.lirrhistory.com
That must be some publishing company, to warrant its own LIRR station!And when you think that whole communities, like Ozone Park and Woodhaven, have no LIRR service at all....
And when you think that whole communities, like Ozone Park and Woodhaven, have no LIRR service at all....
Well...those aren't exactly Long Island communities at all, but Western Queens neighborhoods which are (under)served by the subway. You might as well complian that Sunset Park has no LIRR service. I'd chose, say Levittown (well, that was William Levitt's own fault) or East Meadow or something as an LIRR-less LI comunity.
:-) Andrew
Remember that the LIRR was a private company before the MTA took over the railroad, so making train stations was not some bureaucratic nightmare. Stations were set up for different reason, some to get the wealthy to the golf courses in Bethpage or beach goers in the Rockaway and Manhattan Beach.
It is one of Garden City's 4 stations (from Nassau Blvd).
5 if you count Merilon Avenue.
:-) Andrew
Yes, but I'm surprised its been kept open all these years. Does the Country Life Press Publishing Co. even exist anymore?
IIRC when this topic arose several months ago someone said that Country Life Press was acquired by Doubleday. Don't know if Doubleday kept the name or merged it into its own operations.
Does Doubleday still exist ? I would have assumed not.
Does Doubleday still exist ? I would have assumed not.
It does, though as an imprint of another publishing company (possibly Random House, I'm not certain) rather than as a separate company. There are editorial or back-office operations located adjacent to the Country Life Press station, although I believe the printing operations have moved elsewhere. I don't know what ridership at CLP is like, although given the shortage of station parking especially in Nassau County it's a safe bet that the station lot, however large it may be, is filled to capacity each weekday.
That triangular parking lot north of the station is the only unrestricted station parking in Garden City. I used to park there once a week so that I would go straight to Hofstra at night from work. The lot gets crowded, but no overwhelming.
Doubleday is owned by Random House, and Random House is owned by Bertelsmann.
And in 1911, not many people had cars; demand was probably relativly high.
According to Seyfried, Doubleday, Page & Co. purchased 40 acres to build a publishing plant in 1910. In 1911 the LIRR opened the station called Country Life Press to serve the plant.
Story on CNet.com:
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-6181325.html?tag=mn_hd
What will become of the connection from 6th ave to the 53rd St line?
Will it be held for emergency use only, or will it be abandoned, like the connection between the Williamsburgh Bridge and the 6th ave. line? I read somewhere that some lines in the system will be abandoned, and I did see evidence of track removal at Broadway station on an unused stub track, but where else will there be an end of service? All of that subway right of way must be useful for some kind of transportation, so why abandon it? What next?
The new (V) train will follow the 6th Ave/53rd St route.
:-) Andrew
When the Manhattan Bridge work is done, and full serivce is restored, what then? What other lines will be abandoned in the system?
I don't think the (V) train has anything to do with the Manhattan Bridge. It'll be what it is no matter what that line is doing.
If anything, a full Manny-B service restoation would mean that more trackage would be in use, not less.
:-) Andrew
I sure hope so, because I cannot stand to see tracks and tunnels wasted. What about the tracks on the Nassau street line, and those tracks that are not in use on the J, the M, and a few other places?
The Nassau St-Manhattan Bridge route was permanently severed by the Chrystie St. connection back in 1967.
There are no plans to use the Chrystie St/Williamsburg Bridge connection, as far as I know, but it's still there. Possibly they use it for non-revenue movements.
A total restoration of Manhattan Bridge would mean that the north side would be served by the (B) and (D) to/from 6th Avenue while the south side is served by the (N) and (Q) to/from Broadway.
:-) Andrew
No way to even partially re-connect that route? Even for an unforseen emergency? Well, you never miss the water until the well runs dry.
They will be converting the Nassau Street Line to a double tracked line. They will be using the South-Bound Broad Street side. If anyone gets confused, that'd be the direction J/Z Trains travel toward Broad Street.
That conversion (two track J)is a line item in the 2002 capital budget. It will be open for discussion at an MTA Hearing Wednesday, June 6 at 4:30PM at 347 Madison Av, NY 10017.
If anyone's interested, go to the hearing and speak. Also, you can turn in comments in writing for the record.
What will happen to the Northbound side? It could serve as storage space for layup trains during the lull after the am rush, right?
How about keeping the route in case of a G.O. which would close the other route? Think contingency plan, guys.
The MTA plans on removing platforms and track to reduce aintenance requirements. I do not know what the law says about requirements for maintaining facilities; this may, in part be driving just how this gets done.
These are old stations; MTA's shutting down part of the pedestrian area will allow the agency to better secure the station and deter crime and vandalism. Still, I like contingency track, too.
OK, so you have a chance to talk about it Wednesday 4:30 at the hearing.
Well couldn't a set of those tracks be used by the 2nd Avenue subway?
Theoretically, yes. Would you like to bring it up at the hearing, or write to MTA, and ask?
Sure I would. O.K, lets say the T.A decided to use those tracks,where could the ideal connection be placed? Just before Canal Street or at Chambers Street?
I don't know. I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Why not work out both scenarios in your head, and present them at the hearing, or in a letter. If you send a letter, write in your letter that this is your testimony, or written response for the record, intended for the subject of the hearing.
Published option by MTA is to connect at Kenmare St., so 2nd Ave Subway wouldn't stop at Grand.
Arti
I have written to MTA to ask what the impact would be, in their opinion, of the Nassau Street reconfiguration, to this option. I have also spoken to the Assembly Speaker's office and the Straphangers, who will be attending the hearing today.
[I have also spoken to the Assembly Speaker's office and the Straphangers, who will be attending the hearing today. ]
What was their opinion?
Arti
[Theoretically, yes. Would you like to bring it up at the hearing, or write to MTA, and ask? ]
There's no need, because MTA is already evaluating, as one option for the full lenght 2nd Av subway a connection to Nassau Street line at Kenmare St.
Arti
"There's no need, because MTA is already evaluating, as one option for the full lenght 2nd Av subway a connection to Nassau Street line at Kenmare St."
Wrong, Arti. They are considering it, which is good, but that does not mean they don't need to hear from you. Go to the hearing and give them your opinion about it, and about using or not using the spare tracks on the Nassau St line. Or write a letter. You spend enough time posting here, don't you (esp responding to my posts :0))? Add another few minutes, an envelope and a postage stamp and help make a difference!
[Wrong, Arti. They are considering it, which is good, but that does not mean they don't need to hear from you. ]
I honestly don't have an opinion wether they should use Nassau St or Water St. The reason being that I have no data. MTA is doing a study and they will have the data. There are enough stupid uninformed opinions they have to waste their time on, so I'm not going to add one more. Time to comment on 2nd Ave. subway would be when the study becomes public.
Arti
OK, fair enough. You're a man of integrity.
Thank you!
Arti
No, it will still be used. But by the V line.
Tomorrow I will be journeying to NYC for a day of sub riding and airport picking up. I will be catching the 8:21 NJT train from Hammelton to Newark and the PATH to WTC to meet Pigs of Royal Island. We will then be spending the reast of the day riding around (Redbird lines, N and Q), finally ending up at JFK airport at 7PM to pick up my friend and fellow subtalker Lexcie. I will proceed w/ Lexcie to Penn Station to catch an NJT train to Trenton where he will catch the Twilight SHoreliner to Boston and I will take SETPA back to Philly. If anybody is interesting in joining us or has a sugestion for a line to ride please reply.
The outside wall tracks at Hoyt-Schermoneon Street stop on the A,G and C lines and the middle express track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G line. What were these tracks used for. Did they once connect to each other or used as other reasons? What gives?
>>>The outside wall tracks at Hoyt-Schermoneon Street stop on the A,G and C lines
Used to be used by the Court Street Shuttle which ran between Hoyt-Schemerhorn and Court Street (now the Transit Museum).
>>>>Middle express track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G line.
Always used as a spur track. No express service existed on the G line.
It was used as a spur track but wasn't intended to be used for that originally. In fact, it wouldn't be useful in express service because it connects with the other two tracks both north and south of the station.
Why not abandon one of the side tracks, run trains in that direction on the center track, and use only one island platform instead of two?
The side tracks aren't "abandoned." They are used by the Transit Museum to get fan trip trains in and out of the Museum. Also, the tracks are occasionally used by movie companies who need to have footage of trains operating inside NYC subway tunnels. This was done in "The Taking of Pelham 123" and "Die Hard 3", to name two movies.
As for your other suggestion, I'm not sure how that would work. The side tracks lead only to and from the Court Street station/Museum, and are walled off from the other tracks. You also need to remember that the stations serves two different lines traveling in opposite directions - the Fulton Street line (A/C) and the Crosstown line (G). These lines are not traveling in the same direction even when the trains meet at the same platform. For example, if you take a Smith-9th Street-bound G train from Queens and get off at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and change for the A/C, the A/C will enter the station traveling in the same direction as the G had come, but the A/C is traveling north, towards Manhattan, while the G is traveling south, away from Manhattan. Thus, you can't put those trains on the same tracks.
Sorry, I was referring to the extra track and platform at Bedford-Nostrand on the G.
I'd be hard-pressed to declare either direction on the G as Manhattan-bound. On the (few) occasions I've transferred between G and A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, most of them have been across-the-platform.
Well, I guess that one platform could be closed, but as subway expert Joe Brennan has told me, NYCT doesn't close facilities unless it absolutely has to. Also, its probably cheaper to leave the configuration the way it is than to close a platform and rearrange the switches north and south of the station.
Hopefully at some point in the future a new line will come into existence and use thos tracks, but I fear that I will not be around to see it.
Well, the TA is planning right now to close half of the tracks and platforms on the J/M/Z through Canal and the Bowery. The TA has begun dismantling the extraneous trackage on the L around Atlantic. The TA often closes station entrances and exits.
The switches wouldn't need to be rearranged -- just set them to send (say) southbound trains through to the express track instead of the local track.
This station[Bedford-Nostrand]was going to be a junction for the two Laffayette Ave subway routes. the first was a crosstown routing that we have today,and the other was the Brooklyn-Queens loop line that would have connected to the Myrtle Ave/Central ave line as the local tracks via Stanhope st.[as you guys know , the Myrtle/Central line ran from the South 4 street station] Speacking of this station,were there any other stations planned around this area besides the Broadway station on the Utica ave line?
Hi.
In response to your first question, some history is needed. The original Fulton Street IND line plans, of which the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station was a part, called for the locals to run along Fulton Street and terminate at Court Street (today's Transit Museum) and the expresses to continue on to Manhattan. The locals would have run on the outside (wall) tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the expresses would've used the middle tracks. As it turned out, when the line opened fully in 1936, all trains, local and express, went to Manhattan because of heavy demand. Not wishing to close the Court Street station before it opened, the Board of Transportation created a shuttle, designated "HH", that ran only between Court Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. It saw little used and was discontinued in 1946. The Court Street station was closed and used for commercials and movie shoots until 1976, when the Transit Exhibit opened.
The center track at Bedford Avenue was part of the Utica Avenue extension, one part of the second system of the IND that was never built.
If you go to Utica Ave. station on the A, you will see another part of the Utica Ave. extension, which is the structure that contains the four trackways for that line. Alas, it never was built, and from the looks of things, never will be, either.
I've been to Utica Avenue and have not been able to find any evidence of that "structure." This sounds like "phantom" construction, such as the alleged construction at 2nd Avenue on the F line. All that's there is a higher ceiling - certainly no trackways or anything else.
That "structure" can be identified by the lower ceiling over where it crosses the platforms in use.
Why would the first-system station platforms (the ones in use) be built UNDER (deeper than) the speculative second-system station that has never been and will likely never be used? This forces the passengers at Utica Avenue to climb extra flights of stairs every day for no reason. It also had to be more expensive to sink the tracks of the first system so deep for blocks both east and west of the station.
This is also true at East Broadway (F) where the in-use platform is under the never-built Worth St. line platform, but at least here it may be justified by the Rutgers tubes under the river requiring the extra depth anyway.
It would have made more sense to build the first system closer to the street, with second-system provisions underneath.
I can't really call a higher ceiling a "structure." A provision, maybe. A "structure" is more like the unused Roosevelt Avenue platform.
There is a "shell" for the Utica Ave line crossing the the existing Fulton St. line at Utica Ave. It has provisions for 2 island platforms and 3 tracks. I'm not sure how long it is, probably no more than the width of the existing Utica/Fulton station itself. For years, until I discovered this website, I was fascinated by what appeared as a phantom subway line crossing over the A line here, and the unusually large size of a relatively minor station like Utica/Fulton. Before the TA installed a false ceiling about 5 years ago, the "phantom" subway line was much more obvious.
Please describe what you mean by "shell." Are you referring to a big empty space in the ceiling where platforms and trackways could've gone?
For the most part, thats what it means. There is another shell at the Broadway Station on the G line in Brooklyn, but it is closed off to the public. DAMN!!! I pass by Utica sometimes and I always gaze up at that lowered ceiling at the center of the station. I managed to take a few pictures too, but not that good quality. I know there are one or two sites that I know of dealing with that particular station. If anyone wants them let me know, I still havent figured out how to put links in here yet. If that is possible (?)
That shell at Broadway on the G is what would have been the humungous S. 4th St. station. It has 6 trackways and 4 platforms much the same as Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
"It would have made more sense to build the first system closer to the street, with second-system provisions underneath."
NOT
If you *know* (or leastwise think you *know* that so and such a line is to be built, you would build the first line on the bottom, and then the later line on top, cause it is cheaper and stronger that way.
Unlike most of manhattan, where the first lines in were near the top, (and they were built by private companies who were not going to worry about the ease of construction for those as who would follow (and compete) with them.) It is easier to dig a deeper hole thie first time than to excavate a tunnel under an existing line.
Too bad the second system was never built, but given the changing demographics after WWII would they have been going the right way anyway. For some of them I wonder.
Elias
Too bad the second system was never built, but given the changing demographics after WWII would they have been going the right way anyway. For some of them I wonder.
That’s not an answerable question, since building the subway would change the demographics in itself.
Look where the active line dips low to go under the structure of the station - that is where the trackways are. Look closer, and you will see them, and from time to time, the Electric Railroaders Association has a guided tour to that area so that average folk like us can see the abandoned section up close. A lot of money was wasted building this and many other unused portions of the system. It would be good if it were put to some use to help commuters get to where they must go.
To the best of my knowledge, the ERA has never had tours of that area, for (valid) safety reasons. Until the renovations a few years back, there were blocked-off stairwells from the Fulton Avenue line platforms up to the Utica Avenue line station shell.
In response to another post in this thread, the Fulton Avenue station would have been built at that level anyway, it wasn't built lower (not significantly, at least) because of the Utica Avenue line provision.
There is information about this station shell on Joe Korman's website, The Joekorner. The direct link to the Utica Avenue section is here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on a fan trip a couple of years back ( I believe the trip was the farewellto the R-10 ) and I asked one of the guys who was working as a guide about that very station ( Utica Ave ) and he told me that from time to time the ERA ( of which he was a member ) had tours of that and other unused portions of the subway. I can only go by what he told me, and that is what the man said. Maybe the NY chapter of the ERA could shed some light on this.
According to Joe Brennan's site, none of the Utica Avenue line was built. It was just provided for. How can they take a tour of that, unless they just went to various platforms and pointed up at the ceilings.
From what the man told me, the tour went up into the abandoned section of the station where the trackways could be seen. According to him, there are four of them, with platforms, but no tracks or signals. He also told me about the Winfield Seabury line in Queens, and there have been tours of that abandoned line. Part of the Utica Ave. line is in existence, but it is not in operation. You can see it at the station. Check the other sites in this web page for confirmation.
Mitch, did you follow the link that I posted in post 226042? Please read it... you'll answer your own question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What exactly are "tehse" tracks?
>>> What exactly are "tehse" tracks? <<<
They are just like "tohse" tracks but are over ehre rather than over tehre. :-)
Tom
As I look back over the old 1966 ERA Bulletins I bought from the Sprague Library, it was so interesting to follow the development of the upcoming Chrystie St. changes. It must have been exciting hearing about the radical reconfiguration of the entire BMT/IND system, and at the same time frustrating to see it pushed back because of community opposition. Then it was interesting seeing the modifications and compromises that were made along the way, and then the final service tht actually began, and later modifications.
Nothing has changed. This was just like today, where we await a pair of changes of equal significance: the essential undoing of the Chrystie St changes when the Bridge flips, plus the 63rd St. connector, which will greatly alter a 60 year old IND pattern.
So here is the development of Chrystie St. The Highlight of the plan was the merging of D and Q service, but the other plans went through some interesting changes.
lineOriginal Plan (4-66)12/66 revisions (phase 1 and 2 combined for Memorial Day ‘67)Actual changes implementedPhase I: Connection opens (9-66)Phase II: 6 Av. Exp tracks open (3-67)Phase III: 57 St. opens (3-68)Phase I, II (11-26-67)Phase III (7-1-68) BB (B)unchangedreplaced by BTBT renamed "B"B—168, rush, W4, midday, Sat.to 57th St all times except rushT expanded to middays to replace TTmiddays& Sat. only, to W 4extended to 57th/6thsametotally eliminated (W4&57th service renamed "B")TTdisc. Except for Night, Sun shuttlereplaced by extended B serviceNassau
SpecialsDiscontinuedRJ service retainedRJ replaced by "RR" to ChambersDrerouted: local on 6Av; exp in Bklyn rush only, to CIexpress on 6AvExp. all weekday in BklynTo Brighton Beach when exp.QJimplemented (Rush only), to Brighton BeachAll weekday to B.B.To Coney IslandQB Rush special not included in original plans5 QJ's designated as QB (2 more later added)designates Continental-Whitehall serviceRenamed "QM"redesignated as "EE"Q["Super"]: rerouted to Sea Beach exp.Renamed "NX"Discontinued (4-12- 68)KK(14)Unchangedto 57th St.sameunchanged;
on maps as "JJ"KK appears: 168th Jam.-57th St.
M(10)UnchangedTo 57th ("MM")sameExtended to Broad (MM never implemented
There was a lot of opposition from South Brooklyn on the reroutes to 6th Ave and everyone got over it; now it's the other way around. The only problem I can see is the Grand St. thing...everything else can be worked around.A set of crossovers south of Grand for relaying trains northbound and service into Grand would change that problem but how long to build them and would they do it?
The only thing about Chrystie that really disturbed me was that the KK to Jamaica didn't catch on. Despite the feel of being slow it could have matched the E and F times close enough from lower Manhattan and would have alleviated a lot of the Queens Blvd. overcrowding. All that money spent and now the tracks are unused for passenger service. It's hard to change the public's riding habits.
It wasn't given a decent chance. From what I heard, it ran horribly and people changed to the F anyway. Also, having to run shorter cars would make it a low priority. Like now, they would not want to clog up the overpopulated F with short trains that hold less people, so options like running the V to the Eastern Div. (Which I heard was the original idea) are out.
So I say it should be tried evenings and weekends when Nassau St. is practically unused and midtown (which the eastern div. has no direct access to) is the main destination. This should attract riders who otherwise take cars/car service or avoid Manhattan altogether
A couple of questions i would like to ask etc. Which stations are the ones used by the MU cars ?? How far do they go ??
The reason why is because I understand there is some sections the MU cars cannot go because they are served by diesel service only !!! ( no third rail electric service there ) @ you know the rest of the story !! What are the end of the line stations for the MU cars on the LIRR??
I am going to shoot video of as many of the LIRR lines as possible thats some of the reasons why I wanted to know !!
We would really appreciate any good information here is possible thank you...
In approximate west to east order, the terminals are :
1. Far Rockaway
2. Port Washington
3. Long Beach
4. Hempstead
5. West Hempstead
6. Huntington (line continues as the diesel Port Jefferson Branch)
7. Ronkonkoma (line continues as diesel to Greenport)
8. Babylon (line continues as the Montauk Branch)
Although the Oyster Bay Branch splits off from the Main Line at Mineola and is strictly diesel, I believe that the electrified rails extend north to the Albertson station.
It would be very time comsuming to sit and list all stations that the MU's pass through. You can check the MTA website, which is linked from here and you can visit www.lirrhistory.com maintained by Bob Anderson for more info.
If you want a treat (and can get up early enough) you can take the 6:49 AM electric MU from Huntington to Hunters Point Avenue. I believe that its the only electric that goes to HP. No PM electics.
The 3rd rail I believe goes about 12 car lengths north of the scissor crossovers north of East Williston. It's still quite a gap to Albertson.
Shortly after the Ronkonkoma electrification, the Huntington - Hunterspoint service went from a 10 car MU to 6 car diesel push-pull due to a perpetual MU shortage and ridership diversion off the Port Jeff line. I wasn't aware that it reverted back to MU.
All LIRR passenger lines are now electric EXCEPT:
Oyster Bay branch north (east) of East Williston
Port Jefferson Branch east of Huntington
Ronkonkoma Branch (Main Line) east of Ronkonkoma
Montauk Branch east of Babylon
That is the major diesel only trackage. Also, a few trains operate on two branches which have no intermediate stations:
The Old Montauk line in the city from Long Island City to Jamaica
The Central Branch extension from east of Bethpage station to Babylon (BETH tower to Belmont Junction)
Quite a bit of trackage sees regularly scheduled electic AND diesels (whether they stop or not):
The Main Line between Penn and Bethpage
Oyster Bay Branch between Mineola and East Williston (one stop)
The Port Jefferson Branch between Hicksville and Huntington
The Montauk (Babylon) Branch between Jamaica and Babylon
If I missed something, I'm sure someone will notice.
I really do enjoy ur videos. I currently own the 2,5 redbird video and 7 video. I hope u get some good LIRR videos.
MU lines
1. Anything going to NY penn or Flatbush Av brooklyn
2. Babylon branch
3. Far Rockaway
4. Long Beach
5. Port Washington
6. Hempstead
7. West hempstead
8. Port Jefferson branch. MU's go to Huntington only!
9. Ronkonkoma. Anything going to Greenport LI is Diesel territory.
Diesel territories
1. Port Jefferson(Anything beyong Huntington)
2. Oyster bay
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only
4. Anything East of Babylon. This means Trains to Patchogue,Speonk and Montauk
That is all I believe. E to JAMAICA CENTER, Subtalk news. Back to you in the studio.
BY THE WAY, IF I AM INCORRECT, PLEASE ALERT SALAAM ALLAH AT ONCE AND ALERT ME AS WELL.
TRACK 7 YOU HAVE THE ALL ABOARD
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only.
Isn't that train an electric departing from Hunterspoint? There is third rail in both Hunterspoint and L.I.C.
Long Island City Station has no platform for the MU trains, so diesels are the equipment that runs out of there. There are third rails on some tracks, but not where the passenger trains for revenue runs load passengers. You will see replacement brake shoes on the sides of the tracks from time to time. Hunterspoint Station has a platform for MU trains, and I have seen MU trains at that station on occasion. A few Diesels ( two in the morning, three in the evening ) run on the Montauk branch in Queens, and that line is not electrified. The others run down the main line, and the show they put on is fantastic. Kew Gardens Station ( the place of the infamous Kitty Genovese murder years ago ) is a good vantage point.
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only.
Isn't that train an electric departing from Hunterspoint?
Correct. It connects at Jamaica with the 5:23 to Long Beach, and stops at Mineola, Hicksville, and then all stops to Ronkonkoma. It also offers an amusing insight into mob psychology. The connecting train (the 5:23) leaves from Track 16 at Penn, and is followed on that track by the 5:41 express to Ronkonkoma. When the 5:23 leaves, there invariably are a couple of hundred people waiting on the platform for the 5:41. If these people instead took the 5:23 and changed at Jamaica, they'd arrive at Ronkonkoma about ten minutes earlier than if they'd taken the 5:41. In addition, they'd have a much more comfortable ride - the 5:23/connection is less than half full after Farmingdale, while the 5:41 is SRO all the way to Ronkonkoma.
Train #2068 departs Hunters Point at 5:29 PM. It's 12 car MU. As coincidences go - I rode that train this evening - It's a local & it sucks.
Hunters Pt - Jamaica - Mineola - Hicksville - Bethpage - Farmingdale - Wyandach - Deer Park - Brentwood - Central Islip & Ronkonkoma, Change at Ronkonkoma for the train to Greenport stopping at ..............................................................
Train #2068 departs Hunters Point at 5:29 PM. It's 12 car MU. As coincidences go - I rode that train this evening - It's a local & it sucks.
Do you take it often? I generally take it two or three times a week (boarding at Jamaica), other weekdays I go from Patchogue.
Now, I disagree completely with your opinion of the train. It may make a lot of stops, but it gets emptier with each one, and generally I can get the perfect seatmate* by Bethpage or Farmingdale, at the latest.
* perfect seatmate = empty seat.
Actually it's the 2nd time I took it. I found the perfect seatmate too. About 5'10" around 40D and friendly.
All kidding aside, I have found the 4:44 to Patchogue I great train. Oddly enough though, I'm starting to like the Hunter's Pt. Station. For anyone into train-watching - I haven't found a better spot than the east end of the station. Tomorrow it's back to the good old 5:10 from Penn Station - One seat to islip.
All kidding aside, I have found the 4:44 to Patchogue I great train. Oddly enough though, I'm starting to like the Hunter's Pt.
Station. For anyone into train-watching - I haven't found a better spot than the east end of the station. Tomorrow it's back to the good old 5:10 from Penn Station - One seat to islip.
You're right about the 5:10, it's a pretty good train. I ride it maybe once every other week or so - while I go from Patchogue one or two days a week, the 5:10's a bit too early for my work schedule. Does it still stop in Babylon on Fridays only?
5:10 Stops in Babylon every day. BTW - If you want another reason to ride the 4:44 - check out the engineer some time.
thanks for all of the great information here !! i guess i wll have a lot of fun shooting this on video and digital stills !!!
right on !!!
Why would one want to check out the engineer on the 4:44? What is the attraction or do I have to ask.
It's OK to give one a compliment if deserved.
Maybe a centerfold candidate?
Curt
Suffice it to say in aworld of 2s and 3s - a true 7.5 can look like a 10.
RodgerThat! She must be one good looker than. Have you told her that yet. A kind word can go a long way.
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Diesel territories
1. Port Jefferson(Anything beyong Huntington)
2. Oyster bay
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only
4. Anything East of Babylon. This means Trains to Patchogue,Speonk and Montauk
#3's already been discussed. There's one more diesel-line: the Central Branch from Bethpage to Babylon.
O.K. since there has been a poll going on for everybody's favorite subway fleet, it has remained exclusive to New York. So now it's the rest of the world's turn? IMO, The PATCO fleet is the most successful, and The Almond Joy is my favorite. Now Philly, Boston Chicago, it's your turn.
Let's expand your horizons a little: how about including out of the country (United States) subway systems as well?
I'd have to say it's a tie between 1938 tube stock and type A subsurface stock on the London Underground.
-Robert King
I agree with you right there. I think Toronto's fleet looks cool as well.
Now that I'm home from work, I can write a more comprehensive piece as to why those are my favourite subway cars that exist outside of New York city:
In terms of looks with respect to subway cars (which disqualifies PCC streetcars immediately), I'd have to say that some of London Underground's equipment from the O stock to the R stock on the subsurface lines and the 1938 stock wins pretty much hands down over pretty much anything else with the excellent industrial design that was taking place during the 1930s and 1940s when those trains were built.
In terms of successfulness all of those London Underground stocks, including the 1960 A subsurface stock which doesn't quite have the impressive visual quality of the others, have had very lengthy lives providing reliable service. The A stock is about 40 years old and has jsut been overhauled now, so it should continue to provide reliable service for another 10 to 20 years, putting the trains between 50 and 60 years of age at retirement, which is why I'd nominate it for being the most successful subway car type exisiting outside of New York where other long lived types of subway cars could be found, even if it doesn't look as good as the earlier O or P stocks.
Toronto subway cars: They aren't too bad but most of the 75 foot equipment with the body style used between 1965 and 1974 have been retired from service, leaving trains that have the distinctivly boxy ends, as opposed to the flowing contours around the destination sign and the marker lights that traced around those areas and the edges of the subway car's body near the top. The TTC's fleet has diminished somewhat in terms of appearnce in recent years. I don't know if you've seen pictures of the Gloucster cars. They were probably the most unique subway cars to run on this continent that were built large quantity, instead of small prototype quantities of a handful of cars.
-Robert King
In Chicago, I'll vote for the venerable 4000s fleet, specifically the "plushies", cars 4251-4455, built by the Cincinnati Car Company in the mid-twenties. They served for half a century on virtually every line in the city.
I'd have to agree on the 4000s for Chicago. I really have to admit that I've never really liked the PCC elevated cars.
-Robert King
My favorite are the cars on Montréal's Orange line. I don't know any details of their model, etc., but I think there's something cool about the rubber-wheeled cars.
they are reliable i agree to you on that. i don't remember who it was that made them but i think it was either budd or a french or german company that build them. i know it wasn't bombardier. if could of been alsthom or adtranz or somebody don't remember who. they are very secretive on that
I'll vote for the 600's of the Ferrocarriles de Cataluńa, which operates as a subway in Barcelona and as an interurban outside the city, on the lines to Sarriŕ, Tarrasa, and Sabadell. These cars, 28 in number, were built over a period of 25 years (1953-1978); they were sold in the mid-'90s to Cuba for continued service on the former Hershey Interurban lines. I rode the earlier ones in the series on a regular basis when I lived in Barcelona as an exchange student (the newer ones were built after I lived there).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd have to say the Philly Bridge Line units-beautiful thirties styling and interiors to rival the Bluebirds-except these cars actually provided decades of reliable service.I rode them over the bridge as a kid in 1960-I took the train from NY to Philly just to ride their transit system when I as 14-back then you could still do that in relative safety.
That's a good pick too. I've never got to ride them when they were on The Bridge Line (was just a baby then), but I did get to ride them when they became The Broad Street Cars (a little trivia, The Bridge Cars were the only Broad Street cars that were owned by SEPTA and not The City).
Anybody old enough to have the good forune to ride the original Market St cars? 1907-15 I believe? They were grand evn if they probably never topped 30 MPH. So it felt.
The late O. Winston Link had demanded that NS convey N&W Class A 2-6-6-4 #1218 to the city of Roanoke for inclusion in the railroad museum as a prerequisite for his participation in the museum. NS announced today that they came through.
press release
I spoke with the TO of the PATCO train that I took Sunday from Philly to Lindenwold (after he finished talking with the woman with the bicycle who rode from Broadway Camden to Woodcrest). He said the 57,000 concrete ties have been delivered, but PATCO is trying to pick a contractor to do the work. The job is expected to begin in 2002 and take up to a year.
PATCO employees can replace 20 ties per shift.
PATCO people were working on the east end switch of the short center track between Haddonfield and Woodcrest on Sunday.
photos
I've heard this too, along with a report that ties are piling up at Lindenwold. Those wooden ties have held up well over almost 33 years of service!
But the ride is FAR bumpier than it was 29 years ago when I started riding PATCO daily. I suspect they're deferring minor trackwork because of the impending tie replacement.
I was comming home at midnight and I saw tie work on the W/B track right before the eastern poartal of the Mickle St. tunnel.
Those wooden ties have held up well over almost 33 years of service!
Unfortunately now it's the 33 years part that more evident than the holding up well part.
A multi-alarm fire over the weekend destroyed the Kleet lumberyard in Huntington. News reports say the fire burned for almost 12 hours before being brought under control. Although the LIRR's Port Jefferson line runs along the lumberyard's southern edge, service wasn't affected thanks to the long-scheduled weekend trackwork with substitute bus service. As far as I know regular train service was back to normal on Monday.
Two notes of interest: Newsday said that an LIRR train stored on a nearby track suffered some damage, with one car having some windows (or, more likely, window frames) melted. Kleet's some distance east of Huntington station, I didn't realize that the storage track extended that far. In addition, I expect the demise of Kleet to be a blow to NY&AR, as it was one of their larger freight customers.
Tomorrow (Tuesday) I plan to take the train from Stony Brook, so I should be able to get a good look at the damage.
The storage track was extended years ago and goes up to a switch that is probably 10 feet from Park Avenue. I'm not totally sure but I konw that the extension was put in prior to the train wreck at Park Ave. when a PJ shuttle hit a "low-boy" type trailer that had wedged on the crossing like a teeter-totter. It happened at dusk and the trailer had no running lights. The front-end loader landed, ironically, in Kleet's yard and the Power-Pack ended up facing east alongside the yard. I recall that one of the electrics that was parked there for the weekend was damaged. Therefore the extension must be about 15 y/o.
Dave can put this to the delivery notes page, this set is in service as of today, 6/05/01. Make that train set #7 to be in service. KHI, are you listening?
It just so happens the set was passing by in the midst of a railfan window adventure at 3:30 in the morning with the train going south.
-Stef
7401-10 are on the property and working. I spotted them running northbound towards the East (180th St) a few moments ago....
The 142s and 142As are coming in fast and furious.
This concludes another installation of ADVENTURES FROM THE RAILFAN WINDOW.
Perhaps, I should adopt a new handle. Mr. Insomniac probably fits since I haven't gone to sleep and have chosen to have these railfan adventures in the middle of the night. Shame on me!!!
-Stef
I just saw one going down Broadway to be delivered. It turned onto VCP South so I'm not sure what yard it exactly was being delivered to. Anyone know? 207th St.? 180th St.?
239th Street Yard on the 2 Line.
-Stef
Glad to hear it. I'm also glad that the brake pipe rupture on one R142A last Saturday hasn't sidelined the entire fleet. Now let's see how soon more of them go into service.
That train with the brake pipe rupture 7281-7290 is back in service as of today 6/7/01
"That train with the brake pipe rupture 7281-7290 is back in service as of today 6/7/01"
Speaking of RUPTURE !
Sung to the tune of That's Amore.
Whennn...you get out of bed and your balls feel like lead.....it's a rupture..........
Bill "Newkirk"
i listening attentively. they are coming in like wild fire. too bad salaami isn't gonna like it (salaam im kidding around not arguing if you read this)
Don't get him started.
6336-45 did one run soutbound with passengers, but came back light later on.
-Stef
The r142s made by Bombodier have worked flawlessly since I've ridden them, with the exception of my sunday night ride to gunhill. The train sat at Bronx park east for ten minutes while the conductor was trying to open the doors. He eventually got it, I think most of the problems are human error with these cars. I remember when the redbirds were first rebuilt, back then some of us use to call them rebuilds, we never thought about the name redbirds. Anyway when these cars came back into service after there overhaul. A lot of motor men and I do mean alot would drive these cars fast and overshoot the stations alot. It took sometime for the t\os to get used to the cars again, but they eventually did. My point, everybody just needs time to get use to the new equipment.
i so agree, however most humans think backwards. they think that everything new must be trouble free. they never learn
Daily News story
That story is scary. Although I am not in favor of open antagonism between a union and management for its own sake, and sometimes union politics cause union leaders to make unrealistic demands, when defeated union leaders immediately change hats and are given management jobs, it makes one wonder which side they were really on in their former jobs.
Tom
Sometimes while riding the LIRR, I will hear a crew member asking another crewmember to "switch to Channel 4." Is that a private intra-train channel for the crew only? And if so, why isn't it always used?
Sometimes while riding the LIRR, I will hear a crew member asking another crewmember to "switch to Channel 4." Is that a private intra-train channel for the crew only? And if so, why isn't it always used?
That's exactly what it is. I suppose the crew doesn't use it more often because each crewman has to be in a conductor's booth to use it.
It's not exactly private, it's just a channel on the radio. Normally, the radios are tuned to the road's frequency (channel 1,) crewmembers go to a radio and use channel 4 when they need to communicate with one another.
161.535MHz for channel 4, 160.380MHz for channel 1.
Mark
From today's Times: Two male high school students in Chappaqua have been charged with harassment for posting a Web site that listed the names, phone numbers and alleged sexual exploits of dozens of their female classmates, law enforcement officials said today.
I know one Chappaqua resident who must have gone carefully through the list with great anticipation
Please help me determine which set of the Chinese characters shown
at my web address
http://home.earthlink.net/~nycsubways/
was on the original Canal St. station signs, before re-tiling of the
walls there.
I remember a single set of the Chinese characters.
I've also been told that they said either "Canal St" in Chinese,
or "Chinatown"
Which do these characters say, and what did the single set say
on the removed signs?
I went to Baltimore last Saturday with my wife to visit the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, among other things. We took PATCO from Lindenwold to 8th and Market, walked through the Gallery shopping mall to Market East, and took a SEPTA regional rail R1 train to 30th Street. I chose not to take NJT Atlantic City line train # 4610 because it was scheduled to arrive at 30th Street at 10:30 and our Amtrak train # 155 was due to leave at 10:32. However, NJT 4610 arrived on track 6 at 10:23 and Amtrak 155 arrived track 5 (across platform) ten minutes later. I did, however, get a chance to get a photo of Amtrak’s yard from the SEPTA regional rail platform. We arrived in Baltimore on time, and had no trouble finding the BSM after a 10 minute walk using SubTalker Dan Lawrence’s emailed directions. The short walk provided a close view of the front of the Genesis unit leading the southbound Silver Palm, which arrived at Baltimore Penn Station during our walk.
At the BSM, we rode two of the streetcars and talked with Dan, who was dispatcher on Saturday. Mrs. Choo Choo Bob wasn’t all that interested in the BSM, so we cut the visit short and walked back to Penn Station, walking on a short portion of abandoned Maryland and Pennsylvania track still present on the shoulder of the street. A ride on the Light Rail took us to Pratt Street (Convention Center station), where we had an excellent lunch at The Wharf Rat brewpub, less than a block east of the station. Then on to Harborplace, walking around to the Rusty Scupper and back, then a Water Taxi to Fells Point. A walk around Fells point and a photo of a “package goods” sign (for another thread) led to the Water Taxi back to Harborplace and a walk back to the Light Rail. This left us with some time to spare, so we rode the Light Rail to Patapsco and back to Penn Station, changing trains at Camden Yards.
I had booked return tickets on train 80, the Carolinian, which was running 90 minutes late, so I had plenty of time to photograph the MARC equipment stored for the weekend, as well as the 2-hour-late northbound Silver Palm and the 45-minute-late southbound Crescent, before boarding train 188 for the on-time return to Philly. The Silver Palm, which left Baltimore 25 minutes before train 188, was at PHL when we arrived.
The better half chose not to walk from 11th to 8th, suspecting that the Gallery might be closed after 9 PM and we’d have to walk outside, so we took the Market Street subway from 30th to 8th and returned to Lindenwold on PATCO.
Suggest right click to open new window for photos taken with digital camera aquired Friday night.
trip to BSM
Photos at BSM
Light Rail, Baltimore Penn Station, trip home
Correction: The street track identified as Ma & PA was actually PRR.
Thanks to an email from Dispatcher Dan Lawrence.
The pictures are fantastic!
Good job with the digital camera.
Chuck Greene
I have a question for chuchubob.
I am interested in the photo of two AEM-7ACs at Wilmington Shop. I can see the first engine is 927, but I can't see the second engine number very well. It looks like either 946 or 948. Do you remember the second engine number?
Chaohwa
Chaohua,
The second AEM-7 was # 946.
Bob
Bob, thank you for the information.
Chaohwa
Bob,
Nice pix. I wish I'd known you were going. Then I could have railfanned with you and tried out my and Mrs. Keystone Pete's new digital camera, while she and Mrs. Choo Choo Bob went shopping or something during the "boring" parts! :O)
Ya gotta come to Rockhill in the fall to see our new track extension. Hopefully it will be wired up by then (the track itself just got done)!
--Pete
Thanks, Pete.
Ya gotta come to Rockhill in the fall to see our new track extension.
I plan to be there for the Saturday of the EBT fall spectacular.
"One six eight is next, step in, stand clear of the closing doors."
That's the announcement I heard yesterday on an R44 on the A. At the time, we were in motion between 175th and 168th.
Did the C/R not notice that the doors weren't open (good thing, that) or is there some sort of time delay feature that the C/R may have inadvertently activated?
He probably just made a mistake.
This wasn't on an R142, was it?
I thought recently expired MetroCards could be traded in at any token booth.
When I tried last week at Dyckman Street on the A, I was handed an envelope.
In no mood to entrust my card to the vagaries of the mail system, and since I was headed towards downtown Brooklyn anyway, I went to 370 Jay, the address on the envelope.
I was told that they couldn't do anything there on-the-spot, but that the token booth downstairs in the station might be able to help. So I went downstairs and, a minute later, found myself holding a brand new MetroCard.
Apparently they can be traded in at token booths after all. So why did I get an envelope at Dyckman?
Now that Transit took away the "Trade-in" option from the MVM, we must place ourselves at the mercy of the station agents.
The MVMs used to take expired cards, too? I didn't realize that. I tried one just to see what would happen, but it spat the card back at me, as I expected.
Yes, David. It took expired cards for trade -in until certain Chevra got smart and manipulated the machine into doling out cards for higher value than those inserted. As soon as Transit realized they were losing revenue, they put an end to this feature at all MVM'S.
What a waste. I liked that feature.
I can understand that someone found a hole in the original programming of the MVMs, so that it was possible to extract extra $$$$ of rides.
I can also understand that the quick fix (that, as a programmer, I would also implement) was to turn the feature off entirely.
What is completely unforgiveable is that the TA programmers didn’t go back and fix the original bug and restore the service. After all, if the ultimate goal is to move to a completely automated environment (and I am sure that this has crossed the mind of some TA bean counter, even if it’s not yet policy), then replacing expired cards has to be part of the machine’s repertoire.
Who knows, maybe the machine should test the stripe for dropouts, quality of recordability, etc, etc, and automatically replace any substandard card.
John.
I know there was a trick or a way to get over on the machine but how was this done? I only heard about it on here and on the news, how did you do it?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Enlighten me.
I don’t know the trick. My post was just an observation about programming and software maintenance (or in the TA’s case, the lack of it).
John
Choose refill and stick the expired (or less than 30 days until expired) card in. It will tell you it is expired or will expire in x days. Do you want to trade in? Say yes, it spits out your original (since it has no place to keep it) and the new one. Choose receipt and it will clearly indicate you have performed a trade-in operation.
I still miss being able to combine lots of cards, though, just to see how many serial #s can fit on one receipt.
That's exactly what I tried last week.
It told me it couldn't do anything and spat out the old card, sending me on my way.
Really? I did it on Sunday with no problems with a card that expired 12/31/00. Did you try a card that can't be transferred (Unlimited, LIRR or MNRR Mail 'n' Ride, or other special card)? Maybe they're getting rid of that feature too, and didn't get to my stop yet.
This was a standard pay-per-ride card that expired at the end if March. (Yes, this March.) The MVM in question was at Dyckman Street on the A. I tried the machine before speaking to the agent, and neither was able to help.
Did that station first get the MVMs after the regular Trade-in feature was removed? If so it probably never was programmed to perform trade-ins. It's possible the method I stated only works on MVMs that once had the feature but had it partially removed.
They limited the number of trade-ins to 9 cards or $90.00, IIRC.
You can visit your friendly neighborhood station agent. We can combine up to five if the total value is under $100.00.If there is no line we can do five more. After that you have to wait in line and become a new customer.
But only if the cards are within a year of expiration, correct? A few weeks ago I tried to trade-in a card that was 53 weeks after expiration and the agent told me I'd have to mail it in.
Right! up to one year after the expiration date on the back. After that date all monies left on the card is wiped out.
You are out of luck. After one year after exp., the data and value are wiped out, Fahrfalen.
As I said at first -- the friendly neighborhood station agent at Dyckman Street (that's not my neighborhood, but it's a neighborhood) told me he couldn't do a thing. This was with a single card with value $3.00.
It's a shame some TA employees can't be bothered to do their jobs -- it reflects poorly on the TA as a whole.
I am sorry you met one of the less than ideal station agents. Next time you meet a station agent like that one, get the badge number in the window and call it in. The S/A should have tried to fix the card by trading it in.
Was the card damaged in any way? You have up to 365 days after the expiration date of a regular (not unlimited) card to trade in any remaining balance to a new card at any booth. Perhaps the computer was down at Dyckman?
The card was slightly bent, but not along the stripe, and not enough to cause it to jam in the equipment. The Dyckman agent even put it in his machine and told me it had $3 on it (which means the computer was up), but claimed he couldn't do any more. That surprised me; it expired on 3/31/01 and I thought I had a full year after that to redeem it. I wasn't about to argue since I didn't want to miss a train and, as I said, I was going to downtown Brooklyn anyway (I just had to get off the A one stop early).
Look out for a new policy on NOT doing MC trade ins. Why, a problem with too many MC serial numbers active in the system.
I don't have any direct knowledge that they are going to do this, other then what I see in my crystal ball. It's my looks like a duck, quacks like a duck theory.
Mr t__:^)
What about cards that still have money on them at the end of the validation period
If they can't expand the serial number scope, they'll write you a procedure ... a work around.
Mr t__:^)
Why is it that so few people trust the Postal Service?
Okay, I trust the postal service in general. I'm just not thrilled with the idea of sending a MetroCard in the mail for someone to look at and decide what to do with. Just look what happened when I tried to trade it in as per the official policy -- but I was standing there so at least I got the card back. If whoever opened the envelope at 370 didn't know what to do with the card, I doubt I would have ever seen it again.
Why? They would just mail it back.
The problem is not with TA policy, it's that the agent at Dyckman was completely misinformed.
I once sent a card. When it was returned it was a new one, but the enclosed explanation letter said that the original card was never damaged.
There was a kink in the card. Since the card still fit into busses with that, I can only assume that it was the machine in the booth at 63/Lexington that had the problem (I should have tried to refill at 68th or 77th instead of listening to the agent at 63rd).
Suppose a card is OK but gets damaged in the mail. You know who the TA will hold responsible and not refund your money:YOU.
So send the card registered insured mail with return receipt. That should only cost you, what, 15 bucks?
No. the TA would replace the card ANYWAY. As I've already said. Drill a hole through your thick skull.
>>> No. the TA would replace the card ANYWAY. As I've already said. <<<
I guess we all feel better now that you have given us your personal guarantee of what the TA will do. What are the checks and balances that the TA uses to make sure one of their employees who gets an expired card in the mail won't pocket it, destroy the envelope, and turn the card in himself for the value at a token booth?
Tom
thickheadedbuff was talking about a card being damaged in the mail.
HELLO, if you're sending in a card, it's already damaged! And it's not like one has anything to lose by sending it in.
>>> thickheadedbuff was talking about a card being damaged in the mail. <<<
Actually if you re-read transitbuff's post you will see that he was concerned with sending the card to the TA and not trusting the TA to deal honestly with him. This was also the thrust of the earlier message in the thread from David J. Greenberger (post 226054).
But do not worry about it, AP, as you mature you will pick up on these subtleties. :-)
Tom
No. He wasn't complaining about the TA stealing the card, he was complaining about the TA "losing" it. If they did steal it, they wouldn't blame you, they'd just ignore you and say they never got it.
In any case, why would the employee even want the card, they can't be cash refunded and the employees get passes.
I doubt they do this, but the envelopes can be scanned before being distributed, so that the computer would know if there was no return correspondence.
If anyone at the TA looks at where a card was used over the course of a day, here's what will appear for the card I used last Thursday:
EB M86
NB M15 Limited
NB M98
175th Street (A)
181st Street (1/9)
Dyckman Street (A)
Jay Street (A/C/F)
Hoyt Street (2/3)
7th Avenue (D/Q)
Coney Island (B/D/F/N)
Fulton Street (G)
Atlantic Avenue (L)
Wall Street (4/5)
168th Street (1/9/A/C)
SB M98
WB Bx15
125th Street (1/9)
(It's a good thing I don't have a 30-day pass or I'd never get any work one.)
Over the course of the day I took about 100 photographs. Keeping in mind that I'm also a roadgeek, let's see if this board can reconstruct my exact route (including the walks) and what I got pictures of. There are clues in some of my other recent posts.
(Most of the photos are being developed now. When they come back, I can send links to those who are interested. Email only, please.)
There is suppose to be a 126 dips per day limit. I'm still waiting for someone to push that limit.
Mr t__:^)
There is suppose to be a 126 dips per day limit. I'm still waiting for someone to push that limit.
Impossible. There aren't enough minutes in a day.
[Impossible. There aren't enough minutes in a day. ]
Possible, you have forgotten buses.
Arti
Nevertheless, I find the whole thing suspect, just like subway-buff's fictional account of MVMs not accepting more than 17 coins or bills in one transaction.
>>> There is suppose to be a 126 dips per day limit. <<<
That would be more than one swipe each 11 minutes, 26 seconds. If there is an 18 minute waiting period, the maximum dips would be 80 in 24 hours.
Tom
> one swipe each 11 minutes, 26 seconds.
No problem! You can do a subway <-> bus transfer within the 20 minute window, so just go back, forth, back, forth....
126 seems like a rather arbitrary number. Seven-bit counter that stops a little short?
Again, once you use card for a second time within eighteen minutes, you can't use it again for another 18 minutes.
Proof?
We already discussed this. I've done it on a number of occassions. I've swiped in the subway, then dipped on a bus, and then it doesn't work back at the subway.
And no, cards don't store the last two rides, if they do, then the previous ride is not used for anything.
Yes, we've discussed this -- and my experience appears to refute your claim.
I swiped at 175th on the A and rode one stop to 181st, where I walked to St. Nicholas. I swiped at 181st on the 1/9 and rode two stops to Dyckman, where I walked west to the HHP ramps and back east to Broadway. After chatting with the station agent, I swiped at Dyckman on the A. I doubt 18 minutes passed from first swipe to second or from second to third.
Shortly thereafter, I swiped at Jay on the A/C/F. I walked out the other end of the station (I hadn't realized I could walk across the mezzanine outside fare control before swiping in) and, a few blocks later, entered Hoyt on the 2/3. I rode the 2 (which was in the station when I arrived -- no wait) to GAP, walked a few blocks back to 7th Avenue on the D/Q, and entered there. I highly doubt 18 minutes passed between swipes.
In your experiments, did you try to reenter the same station after swiping on the bus or did you go to a different station?
[And no, cards don't store the last two rides, if they do, then the previous ride is not used for anything.]
You don't know what you're talking about !
Mr t__:^)
Then fill me in, instead of making useless commentary on what I know or don't.
[Again, once you use card for a second time within eighteen minutes, you can't use it again for another 18 minutes. ]
Incorrect, swipe into a subway, exit and then use it for a bus, done that, in 2-3 minutes, and it works.
Arti
Incorrect, swipe into a subway, exit and then use it for a bus, done that, in 2-3 minutes, and it works.
Before saying incorrect, learn how to read. I was saying specifically that the card would not work at all for 18 minutes after the second swipe within 18 minutes.
[Before saying incorrect, learn how to read. I was saying specifically that the card would not work at all for 18 minutes after the second swipe within 18 minutes. ]
That's also incorrect, done that too. M101 from 26th to 34th, M34 to Madison, M4 to 38th St., all in less than 15 minutes total trip time.
Arti
Then I was wrong.
Maybe this was the policy back when one couldn't swipe in two different stations within eighteen minutes. I had not tested anything since then.
>>> Maybe this was the policy back when one couldn't swipe in two different stations within eighteen minutes. <<<
Although I have no first hand knowledge, it is also possible that the 18 minute detection software is in subway turnstiles only, and not in bus fare boxes. That would make logical sense, since the main purpose of the 18 minute limit is to prevent more than one person from traveling on one unlimited Metrocard at the same time. Since a bus fare box is under direct observation of the B/O, it would be harder to pass the card from one rider to the next one boarding the bus than in the subway, and there are more likely to be legitimate bus transfers within 18 minutes than subway transfers. Therefore, it is logical that the bus fare box may not read the last time the card was used, nor put a time stamp on the current use.
Tom
Actually there's a limit in bus fare boxes too. M101 from 59th to 45th St., buy stamps, take another M101, "Invalid Card" message, bus driver let's me enter regardless.
Arti
Assuming that there's no limit on # of swipes, and that it takes you 1 minute to do the sub-bus transfer, you can swipe twice every 19 minutes, resulting in about 150 uses of the card. 2.7 cents a ride.
1. If you have a VALUE card, four folks can ride on that card, e.g.
80 X 4 = 240 ... ooooh.
2. What about "swipe again" ... ooooh.
3. Re 126 as a number, how about 655.36 ?
Now look at it another way 65,536 ... ooooh power of two with a decimal in the wrong place. 655.36 is what I call the Cubic "Hiccup"
Mr t__:^)
What is 655.36 for?
I can't imagine why a card would even need such a limit, they can only store the data about the last ride or two, and don't have a clock that tells them when the day is over.
Is this just like not being able to use more than 17 bills or coins in an MVM in one transaction? I believe so.
No .... no .... no. It's not a "official" number.
The farebox will be doing just fine, then for no apparent reason it will "hiccup", i.e. $655.36 will be added to the coin total. They found one cause for this & upgraded the chip in the farebox. So "most" of these hiccups are gone. Or you might see 1,024 1/2 fare students get on one bus, or 32,768 Seniors with MetroCards.
Mr t__:^)
The descriptions on this site of both the 4/5 and the J/M/Z state that there is a complex set of passageways outside fare control between these two stations. Where are these passageways? (Are they open to the public?) I saw no evidence of them.
I think from the north end of the 4/5 you can get into 120 Broadway and from there over to the J/M/Z. Never tried it myself. You can use the 1 C.M.P. concourse to connect from the J/M/Z to the 2/3 at Wall as well.
Yep. I used to work at Chase Plaza. Wall St on both the 2/3 and the 4/5; and Broad St on the J/M/Z connect via the underground passages under Chase Plaza (2/3) Broad Street, and 120 B'way (J/M/Z/4/5)
-Hank
This passageway extended from Fare Control at Broad/Wall northward to a 4/5 transfer via 120 Broadway Building (Equitable).
In addition, you can go to Cedar/Nassau via the Chase Building.
Years ago, another staircase existed at Cedar/Nassau at 140 Broadway.
140 Broadway (Helmsley Spear, Inc., my old building) didn't want to upkeep the entrance since it was a source of vermin, and vagrants using it as a toilet, so the TA closed it in the mid or late 80s.
Quite open to the public. Some of them don't feel safe; I suspect they may be closed at night. There is a vague but accurate schematic on neighborhood maps of the area.
On Thursday I rode an R142 on the 2 from Hoyt to Grand Army Plaza. The announcements were coming on early -- e.g., "now entering" came on just after leaving the previous station. The C/R had to make manual announcements at the stations.
(That single chime before a manual announcement is awful -- it sounds too much like the door chimes. And the door chimes don't work when manual announcements are made.)
i was on that one on sunday. it was 6301-10 this happened twice. the first time when the conductor set it after leaving flatbush ave. and then it happened on its own. its just a sync thing so, they can reset it back to normal while the train is in the the interborough tunnels.
Hello. Which line services this station betwwen 10P and6A and weekends?
Depends. Usually the F, via 6th Ave63rd St/Queens Blvd. in its more or less permanent GO. But these last couple of weekends the F was running to/from Broadway via 63rd, so they must be running a Shuttle--or is it just a Brooklyn-Manhattan F terminating at 57th and 6th.
:-) Andrew
The way I understand the latest Serv. Notices, "F" to 6 Av and 42 from Stillwell. From Queens "F" to either 57-7Av, or 34- Broadway. While the "D" (and "B") can cover 47-50, what covers 57-6 during the period that the "Q" does not operate?
Nothing? Just a guess. That station is quite close to a variety of other stations; there's no reason for the TA to go out of its way to keep it open, especially evenings and weekends. (I'm not sure why it doesn't simply run the F through to 57th, though, instead of terminating it at 42nd. Is it possible that there's construction on the local tracks north of 42nd?)
>> (I'm not sure why it doesn't simply run the F through to 57th, though, instead of terminating it at 42nd. Is it possible that there's construction on the local tracks north of 42nd?) <<
They were doing that. However I guess the G/O has taken that over too.
From 10pm 6/8 until 5am 6/11 the F will run in two sections from Stillwell to 42nd St. 6th Ave and from 34th Street Broadway out to queens via the 63rd St. connector. 23rd St Ely, Lex and 5th Ave stations will be closed.
There will be no E service during this time, use the A for E stations in Manhattan, R service will be extended in Queens for all E stops.
Guess they are working on the 53rd St. tube once more.
The TA is doing fire stand pipe rehab work in the 53rd street tube on weekends and nights in addition to finishing up 63d street connector work in the immediate area . I understand that there will be regular Sunday sevice this Sunday 6/10 due to the Puerto Rican Day parade. It was ordered that the GO for the 63rd street connector work will be cancelled for Sunday and only in effect Friday night through Sunday AM. Check the service notices.
Also, I am told that the track work north of 57th and 6th will soon be ending so there will be once again through service nights and weekends on the 63rd street connector.
My latest info tells me that the new 63rd street service plan will go into effect on November 11, 2001. Stay tuned.
The idea that the TA will be installing an airport style moving walkway at 23rd Ely court square is indeed correct as I had occasion to speak with an engineer that was laying it out with a drawing some few weeks ago while in that corridor.
The complaint that I have, is, that assuming that the sta. is closed, there is no advisory to that effect at any of the nearby stas. or at 57-6 itself.
I agree. Perhaps my greatest peeve with current TA operations is poor communication with the passengers, and GO alerts are at the top of that list.
I believe the F does run to 57/6th nights and weekends, just without passengers. The call letters for the Brooklyn portion of the F are out of 57th.
And this stupidity is the result of conflicting GOs. The 53st tube is being work while the connection between 6th and 63rd is OOS (reason unknown).
Actually Henry the reason is quite well known. The reason for the OOS on the 63rd street tunnel north of 57/6 is a track repair job that has to be undertaken. Reason being that its work that must be done prior to the new service changes taking effect on November 11. It's better than the alternative of not doing the work!
What, exactly, has to be repaired in a 10 year old track section that has been closed every weekend the R was sent through the connector, plus around fall of last year, plus those 3 years of single track running where the 63st S actually got shown on the map, plus the 1995 rerouting of the Q onto Broadway, plus all those times weekend and night 63st service was reduced to a shuttle. Looking back, the ratio between 63rd/6th ave and 63rd/Bway usage seems to be 3:1.
Has there been a change in the effective date for the Manhattan Bridge changes in service? With less than a month to go, we have heard very little in the media or Transit itself regarding this matter.
07/22/01
The real question is when will it be back. They had a two-year time period for the work initially. Now it's three or four.
I work for the ************ company and they haven't told us yet. The latest rumor seems to be July 22, nothing is official until it is in writing.
Hopefully the switchover will have taken place by the time I make my annual visit in October.
The current version of SubTalk (the brochure you can pick up at Subway stations) has a section in it about the changes. Apparently there will be a special MannyB brochure out shortly.
John.
Just months after the NYCTA has opened service between the "new" 63rd st tunnel, and the main line to Jamaica and Forest Hills, the 63rd/Lex station has been faced with problems on a regular basis.
We all know that this station is one of the deepest stations in the city. We also know that useage has increased significantly since trains now run through this station to Forest Hills and Jamaica.
Since March, the elevator has been out-of-service twice, for a week at a time. And there is always a minimum of one or two escalators not working. Sometimes, it's an "up" escalator, which makes things ten times worse.
If you are coming from Queens, you have to take 4 escalators to reach street level. One Sunday, 2 of the 4 escalators going up, were not working. I reached the token booth level, and saw about 4 employees just standing around, while one handed out transfers. You would think they would be smart enough to run a "down" escalator in the "up" direction, since it's easier for those going down to just walk it.
God, you gotta love city employees.
Transfers to what? The TA has already implemented the free transfer between 63rd/Lex and 59th/Lex? I had no idea.
Yes. The TA always offers free transfers from the 63rd/Lex station to the 59th station. At least on weekends when I am usually around there.
The conductor on a Manhattan-bound F or R train going through 63rd will announce that the train is going a through 63rd st, yet people get off at Lex/63rd and look for the direct connection to the 6 train.
I've been through that station many times, most on weekdays, and I've never seen transfers distributed.
The TA is probably distributing transfers to F passengers who don't listen to announcements and don't realize they have to change to the R to reach the 6 the "official" way.
A few weeks ago, when the R was running through 63rd, I transferred via Fun Pass to the Lex. Not that I cared, but I didn't see anyone handing out transfers.
Hey Dave,
Do you think it would be totally ridiculous to build a "6" station at Lex/63rd? So 6 riders would stop at 63rd, run another 4 blocks to the next stop, and then 53rd would come next?
I suppose that would help redistribute riders from the Bronx or East Harlem based on whether they were headed for the West Side (they want the E train at 53rd/Lex), 6th Av (F at 63rd/Lex) or Broadway (N or R at 59th/Lex). Or redistribution of those headed for Queens (F at 63rd/Lex for central/Eastern, V at 53rd for west of Jackson Heights).
I just thought I'd post that idea for the hell of it.
Yes, I do think it would be totally ridiculous. (Sorry.) Three stops on a single line in an eight-block span?! (There's an entrance to the 59th Street station at 60th -- in fact, I don't think I've ever entered at 59th proper.)
I'd like to see an underground passageway connecting 63rd to 60th. Supposedly one already exists -- it just needs to be opened to the public and placed within fare control. (A moving walkway couldn't hurt. If Queens can get one...)
Until that happens, a MetroCard transfer is a reasonable compromise.
But, really, I expect that F passengers who need the 6 will transfer to the E/R/V (any will do but some may refuse to ride the local) in Queens.
I'd like to see an underground passageway connecting 63rd to 60th. Supposedly one already exists -- it just needs to be opened to the public and placed within fare control.
This is the first I've heard of an existing connection. It would have had to have been built when the 63rd Street line was dug. Since the 59th Street station occupies the entire width of Lex from building line to building line and the sidewalks on Lex were never dug up between 60th and 63rd(IIRC), this phantom passage would have had to have been dug from building basements or from the train tunnel or bored from the end of an existing platform. I don't remember any such project. Does anyone else?
This is said to be an electrical room. Since it extends the whole way from 60th-63rd, it must have been built as part of the Lex. line, along side the tunnel north of 59th St. and the new 63rd St line abutted it, so it was connected.
Of course, there would be a precedent for that- MBTA Red Line's Park Place and Downtown Crossing Stations are close together; Market Frankford Line stations in Center City Philly are close together; Broad Street Subway's City Hall and Walnut-Locust Stations are close together (the latter needed to provide a transfer to the PATCO line).
Its not the city employees, its the contractor who installed that junk in the first place. The "lowest bidder" means exactly that.
Things are not like they were 100 years ago. The original IRT was built by cheap immigrant labor who had to work hard to keep their jobs, and by artisans who came over from Europe. That's why some of the original IRT stations were so beautiful. Now all you get is shoddy work and lazy workers.
Lets put it this way - the entire 9.1 mile original IRT line was built in 4 years, from groundbreaking to opening day. Its taken 11 years just to fix the damn Manhattan Bridge tracks!!!
Well said. Only a few years (1925-1932) for IND construction. Most of this construction was already in place by 1930 anyway.
Today? Fugetabouit.....
You jump to a lot of conclusions without bothering to collect facts, don't you? Did you answer math questions in school without listening to them first?
What are the possibilities here?
1) The escalators and/or elevator are crappy, and they fail too frequently.
2) Vandals are pounding on them and attacking them with foreign objects and hitting the emergency button over and over again....all too common in New York. Amtrak's elevator in North Philly was wrecked by vandals.
3) NYC Transit is not following the manufacturer's directions for maintenance.
4) More than one of the above
So which is it? Do you really know? Can you find out and post it here?
I'm sure that the problems with the 63rd Street station could easily be all of the above. You can let me now what the answer is.
BMTJeff
I don't know what the answer is. I just wanted you guys to consider all the possibilities before pointing fingers. (And I apologize for being a bit shrill).
"I'm sure that the problems with the 63rd Street station could easily be all of the above. You can let me now what the answer is."
BMTJeff
Maybe the problems with the escalators at 63rd St. have something to do with the vibrations of those speeding R-68s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think any R68's go through there, since it has been awhile since the B went to Queensbridge.
More likely the speeding Redbirds and R62's upstairs.
The upper level platform there shakes and rattles uncontrollably whenever an express passes by, and Lexington expresses come by a lot more frequently than whatever line happens to be running across 63rd today. A bit of soundproofing, as at 49th, would have been fitting.
Yeah the noise is bad on both levels. On the lower level you hear the express on the lex roar above, on the upper below. Isn't the Lex express tracks sandwiched in between both upper and lower levels?
There seems to be quite a distance between upper and lower levels of the 63rd/Lex station, that would explain it.
I believe you are correct.
AFAIK the 63rd St line ducks beneath both levels of the Lexington Ave. line. That would explain why the 63rd/Lex station is so deep.
Sounds like a job for Todd and his depth gauge, if he is interested.
That could be the reason why the escalators do not work correctly at the 63rd St./Lex. Ave. station of the 63rd St. tunnel.
BMTJeff
I wouldn't be surprised if the frequent severe vibrations have a deleterious effect on the escalators -- and I also wouldn't be surprised nobody bothered considering this issue when installing the escalators. In fact, it seems like the issue was entirely overlooked.
I wonder if the architects who designed the escalators in the first place ever took into account that there was going to be a lot of vibration so that the escalators could be installed in such a manner so that the vibration wouldn't affect them.
BMTJeff
"I'm sure that the problems with the 63rd Street station could easily be all of the above. You can let me now what the answer is."
BMTJeff
Maybe the problems with the escalators at 63rd St. have something to do with the vibrations of those speeding R-68s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
That is a possibility, but not very likely. I wonder if the escalators wern't installed correctly.
BMTJeff
<>
I am not jumping to any conclusions, and here are the facts:
There are four levels of escalators between street level and the Manhattan bound platform at 63rd Lex. One side goes up, the other goes down. These escalators a VERY LONG, as this is one of the deepest stations in the city.
It is a fact that at least one or more of the escalators is always out of service. It is a fact that TA workers were standing around the station(giving transfers to the 6, or just answering questions for those who still don't understand what the 63rd tunnel is about) aware that TWO LEVELS of street-bound escalators were not working, and people were struggling to make it upstairs. At the very same time, the elevator was out of service.
I would have reversed two of the down escalators to bring people up, since we all know it's easier going down a pair of stairs than up.
That was my original point. I am sorry I did not communicate it properly.
You communicated it just fine. But what you didn't communicate was whether those TA workers would have been able to do anything about the escalators at that point. Now, you are correct that perhaps the down escalators should have been reversed. Perhaps that could have been done.
But in as far as why the escalators or elevators are broken - that is something where you didn't present any information.
Station Agents and CTAs (Cleaner Transity Authority) asre not authorized to start/restart/reverse escalators. Only supervisors and above are so authorized.. Did you tell teh booth the escaaltors were out? Maybe they already called for the supervisor? Maybe supervisor couldnt start the escaaltors and called Elevator/Escalator for service?
I have seen the bulletin regarding Escalators- it is four pages long!
There is also a manual for elevator operators.(If you wonder- you must be qualified to work as an elevator operator. They are usually CTAs on restricted duty.)
I have also seen a bulletin on escalator/elevators. We must immediately call in any stopped escalator to our field office. Elevators require use of our alarm if someone is trapped. If no one is trapped we must call the field office to report the elevator.
Unfortunately, Station Agents have rules we must follow or we could lose our jobs. Next time, feel free to call 718-243-3222 and complain to the Field Manager (Superintendent). Near each booth is a sign stating:
John Doe (Made up name)
is the Field Manager (or: Superintendent) for this station.
(plus other text) and gives an address and the phone number.
If the sign has no name then call the number anyway being sure to name the station and condition.
Station Agents and CTAs (Cleaner Transity Authority) asre not authorized to start/restart/reverse escalators. Only supervisors and above are so authorized.. Did you tell teh booth the escaaltors were out? Maybe they already called for the supervisor? Maybe supervisor couldnt start the escaaltors and called Elevator/Escalator for service?
I have seen the bulletin regarding Escalators- it is four pages long!
There is also a manual for elevator operators.(If you wonder- you must be qualified to work as an elevator operator. They are usually CTAs on restricted duty.)
I have also seen a bulletin on escalator/elevators. We must immediately call in any stopped escalator to our field office. Elevators require use of our alarm if someone is trapped. If no one is trapped we must call the field office to report the elevator.
Don't take this the wrong way, you didn't make the rules, but it's fairly apparent that any private business that was so rule-bound, and left its frontline workers with so little authority, would be driven out of business by its competitors in very short order.
With the exception of some very upscale Fifth Avenue or Park Avenue apartment buildings, the TA is quite likely the only employer of elevator operators left in the city.
Most subway elevators don't have operators. It seems as though only the ones that don't have a staircase alternate, like the deep Washington Heights stations on the A and 1/9, have operators. Why the distinctions? Crowds, perhaps?
I'd think that with crowds there, that would be justification for NOT putting an operator there, as there'd be more room for the crowds.
Possibly the operator saves enough time by discouraging people from holding the door open to offset the space he occupies with a few extra runs per hour.
All deep stations have emergency stairways. Even 181, 191 on the 1, Clark Street, part-time end of BMT Boro Hall. Roosevelt Island, etc have escalators so that is the emergency stairway.
All deep stations have emergency stairways. Even 181, 191 on the 1, Clark Street, part-time end of BMT Boro Hall. Roosevelt Island, etc have escalators so that is the emergency stairway.
If you want to lament pathetic stations, try riding the Sea Beach in Brooklyn and get a ganger at Fort Hamilton Parkway, 20th Avenue, Avenue U, 86th Street, among others. Those stations feature peeling paint, dank smells from water damage, and an atmosphere of a bombed out section of Berlin in 1945. And the TA has done nothing to improve those stations since the first time I returned to New York on a visit for the first time in 1974.
Last but not least....let's not forget everyone's favorite disgusting station, Chambers Street (J/M/Z).
I'd be willing to bet there are some new, undiscovered mutant species of mushrooms growing there.
MP and others bring up an interesting topic. Here's my take on it. The TA is either woefully short of money, or just doesn't give a hoot anymore and is just playing out the string. I hope it's the former because with good times more money will be available and some work can be done to improve the stations. If it's the latter, well then, the greatest subway system in the world is headed for real bad times. I'll bet there isn't another website that features a band of fanatics extolling the virtues and rememberances past of a subway like we do here on Subtalk. Perhaps if we were in charge we would make our feelings known and get the action that is needed. Can it be inertia or laziness that grips those who run the system? I'd like to hear what you guys out there have to say about it because from what I know already there has been a litany of complaints about this or that station that has turned out to be the pits.
It's the BUCKS ... current MTA budgets were based on financial realms that went away on inauguration day. I'm not saying this to fan the flames of politics here but with the change in administration in DC along with consumer's complete loss of confidence in the future ("let them shiver in the dark") the "good times" are over. Since a lot of politicos and agencies never planned for a rainy day, money's tight and about to get a WHOLE lot tighter now that our "leader" has decreed that mass transit is an anathema to drilling for oil (apparently someone here BLABBED and told him that the subways don't run on gasoline) and thus, the funding promised last year has dried up.
Add to that the hissy fit going on up here in Smallbany because Bruno and Paturkey won't talk to Shelly and make a promise that when the state Assembly actually passes a budget bill that it won't spontaneously change AFTER the fact, there may not be a state budget *AT* *ALL* now which means the MTA will NOT be funded at all and that in turn means a fair hike just to keep the trains rolling and not much more.
What we've got here is politicians who are thumbing their noses at us all and believe FIRMLY that we're going to re-elect them and somehow forget all about this. But there's why ...
Ah, Chambers St. The most magnificent ruin in the city, now that the main building at Ellis Island has been renovated.
Though I haven't seen the interior of these stations the condition of the platforms tells the story quite well. They look pathetic.
BMTJeff
This bodes real well for the proposed people mover at Court Square :)
--Mark
Sad but true.
Also sometimes there's lots of leaks. Last time I was there I saw a good sized puddle of water near the front end of the Queens bound platform.
It's possible that these escalators are not designed for bidirectional operation. This would explain why the down escalators were running down while the up escalators were not working.
Additionally, I was told many years ago, by the people in charge of repairing escalators for NYCT at the time, that even in cases where an escalator is designed for bidirectional operation, it is usually not done because the escalator has run for so long in one direction that all the parts have worn one way, and changing directions at that point could be dangerous.
David
Seems like an easy solution would be to periodically reverse the escalators. That would briefly confuse the regular commuters but I'm sure they're smart enough to figure it out.
(Automobile analogy: tire rotation.)
We've already got one person who comes on here periodically and complains that the escalators at Court Street are reversed ("down" goes up, "up" goes down). I wouldn't want to see that multiplied by the scores of escalators in the system :-)
David
[Additionally, I was told many years ago, by the people in charge of repairing escalators for NYCT at the time, that even in cases where an escalator is designed for bidirectional operation, it is usually not done because the escalator has run for so long in one direction that all the parts have worn one way, and changing directions at that point could be dangerous. ]
That means that the escalator wasn't really designed for bidirectional operation, or it wasn't properly maintained.
Arti
"That means that the escalator wasn't really designed for bidirectional operation, or it wasn't properly maintained."
Reasonable possibilities.
However, do not all machines sometimes have problems with new parts (eg the parts wear into each other, such as when a new automobile engine has been operated for several months), so that new parts need to "break in" to their environs?
I apologize if this seems like a stupid question...
[However, do not all machines sometimes have problems with new parts (eg the parts wear into each other, such as when a new automobile engine has been operated for several months), so that new parts need to "break in" to their environs? ]
My original response was theoretical. I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I wouldn't know the answer, but if something is specified to perform something and doesn't, either spec wasn't correct or met, or maintenance wasn't up to spec.
Arti
When I lived in London, we had escalators just about everywhere on the deep stations. Whenever possible London Transport was replacing old elevators (“lifts”) with escalators: huge banks of them.
They ran reliably, some for many years. The reason I understand that there is a rash of replacements going on at the moment, is fallout from the King’s Cross fire: wooden escalators can obviously catch fire.
However, they run.
The escalators in the World Trade Center take a pounding but they run.
The TA apparently doesn’t know to specify the heaviest-duty escalators that they could possibly think about, and then keep maintaining them.
I use the BMT escalators at Court Street: they are frequently out, and the right hand one going up has constant problems with one of the handrails not going at the same speed as the rest of the machinery. It’s been like that for months.
The escalators at 5 WTC on the BMT are now a still life behind sheetrock. I have seen no sign of any rebuilding after the fire and it’s been more months.
What happened to a reasonable maintenance policy?
John.
NYCT did indeed have problems with escalator specifications, in the 1970s and 1980s. It bought Westinghouse modular escalators, which were in essence department store escalators. They didn't stand up to the rigors of the subway environment, and their replacement has become a priority.
I don't know how bad London's vandalism problem is, but it's pretty bad here. Even when people aren't actively trying to BREAK the escalators, they're shutting the machines off by pressing the emergency stop button (of which there is one at each landing, as required by NYC law). The escalator then stays off until a supervisor can come by and inspect the machine to determine whether it can/should be restarted or needs repair.
David
To add to the response: Most booths at escalator stations have a panel that lets us see if the escalator is stopped or if the fire alarm at the escalator is active or tripped. The panel also comes with an emergency stop for each escalator or all escalators depending opn the station..
Even some of the new escalators are not up to par. Broadway/ E NY (BENY) has just had its two replaced with three and one of them is squealing up a storm and usually only two are running.
My buddy Bill "Newkirk" E-Mailed me about an August 27th Fan Trip aboard a Triplex "D" Type train----my all time favorite. I know there are three others scheduled earlier which I cannot make, and I am told they are going to the Rockaways. Does anyone know where the 8-27 trip is going and what number designation will be put on the Triplex. I hope it's Coney Island and the number is #4 for my old Sea Beach. But either way I would love to come. I only wish it was a week earlier since I will be in Virginia until August 20th. Someone let me know if they have the answer.
The Aug. 27 trip is a special one run by the Division of Car Equipment (did I remember that right?) for the March of Dimes benefit. (They ran the Observation Car fan trip last year). The triplex tour is supposed to be the BMT eastern division and then to the SBK to the waterfront (hauled by diesels).
-Dave
What details do we need to know to sign up for this trip?
Are we sure that date is right? It's a Monday.
Gary, thanks for pointing that out!
The change has been noted (in the thread)
BMTman
The 8/27 Trip IS NOT a Transit Museum sponsored excursion.
It is being handled by SubDivsion C (MOW) and will go over the Willy B. and then will go over to Metropolitan Ave (M Line). It will include a brief run out to the SBK yard (assuming TA approves).
A run like that hasn't been done since the D-Type trip via McDonald Ave. SBK trackage (back in 1975).
BMTman
Is it safe to say that there will be some "street running" and how far ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At least to the waterfront, i.e. thru the SBK yard & out the otherside. Any more would require two things: an agreement with NYCHRR & track up grade, i.e. I believe they still have a split rail on the curve between 1st & 2nd Ave. I would have signed up for this one, but I'll be in Bridgeport that week-end (my annual AA baseball week-end, we're doing the "other" league this year).
Mr t__:^)
Please E-Mail me with details - Skip8096@Yahoo.com
Bill, at present time the street running will entail standard South Brooklyn trackage from the 4th Ave. Tunnel portal out over 3rd Ave., past Costco and across into the SBK Yard. The D-Types are supposed to be hauled ALL the way into the yard (ie meaning the train will go into the Cocoa-port).
Street running down 1st Ave. is optional and requires an OK from New York Cross Harbor RR.
BMTman
I would say that some of us should try to organize a special #4 Sea Beach Fred special running "D" types on the Sea Beach Express track specially for #4 Sea Beach Fred.
BMTJeff
I think that I must consult the dept of car equipment before I plan my vacations :(
And the trip is Sunday August 26th .....
--Mark
Politicians have postponed considering which of 3 directions to build first until a draft environmental impact statement is written next year.
Bergen Record story
Reading between the lines, the politicians are postponing their decision until the highest bidder steps forward. Send in your cash vote now!
That's actually not an unreasonable decision. Lacking the money to build all three, they are trying to pick one. Will there be some corruption involved? Is this New Jersey? So yes, and yes. But the fact is, HBLR is open and operating successfully - and that gives these folks some credibility in my book. So if they want to wait for the EIS, fine - but then it's time to pull out the shovels and get back to work.
A while ago, someone posted that there was a period of time after the Rockaway line opened that the A didn't go there. I and others didn't believe it, and my Line History page has the A being mostly unchanged until 1988.
When doing the research for the History Repeats itself post (below), I decided to look at the old maps and see it it was true. I started with the 1958 map, and that had the A express to the Rockaways and Lefferts and the E local to Euclid. Non-rush, the A went to Lefferts only, and unlettered shuttles went from Euclid to the Rockaways. I had assumed it was always like this, with the A and E swapping between local and express sometime, and the E eventually extended to the Rockaways as well.
But then when I looked at the 1964 World's Fair map, The E was express to Euuclid or the Rockaways, and the A was local to Euclid or Lefferts only. Non-rush, the HH ran from Euclid to the Rockaways. I'm not sure whether this began in '64, or in '63 when there was another map (which I've seen, but don't have), which looked like the '58 map, but I wasn't aware of any differences on the IND. So then around the time I was born, there was no A to the Rockaways. I never knew that.
Then right before the Chrystie St changes, midday, evening and weekend daytime A service was extended to Far Rockaway. Then I notice this was a headline in one of the 1967 Bulletins. (I was so busy concentrating on the Chrystie developments that I overlooked the significance of "A Extended to Rockaways".)
(At the same time, the E began put-ins from Lefferts (these are probably the trains that had been going only to Euclid before), and the HH was cut back at certain times and began the long deadheads from Broad Channel.
In 72/73, the HH was omitted (this I always knew, as it was the map I grew up on), and both A and E go to Far Rock and Rock Park, but otherwise the map is pretty vague about the times and shuttle service. The E was still express on Fulton, which I had never realized before. I had later found out that it was express sometimes, but never realized it was for that long-- 63 or 64 to 76 (when the A exp./CC local service I was most familiar with began).
The East River Crossing study had proposed restoring the E exp to the Rockaways/A local to Euclid (which I thought was so unheard of when I first read the plan 4 years ago), to bring more service to the Franklin St. station in the evnet of Manhattan Bridge problems. (The plan also included full length double track shuttle, extended to Brighton Beach in the event of a full closure)
Other info, it's true that the express tracks from w4 to 34th opened at the same time as Chrystie St. There had been alot of debate about that. But it makes sense, because originally, the tracks were to open as Phase II, in March, 1967. But when Phase I was pushed back from the year before, the tracks were then ready before the opening, and the two phases were able to be combined.
It's also true that there was a time before 1954 that the D went to Church Av. and the F terminated in Manhattan. The 1948 "3 systems" map reflects this, but I'm not sure when it began or ended.
When I do my next upload of Line History (probably to reflect the Manhattan Bridge flip), I'll make the corrections.
A second correction. I forgot there was a second 1972 map (reflecting the service changes of 1-2-73, such as the replacement of the QJ), and this has the E local again, and only to Rockaway Park. This (and the 1974 map) was the one I grew up on, so that's why I thought the A was always express.
I rode on an E running express along Fulton St. in July of 1969, the same day as my memorable Howard Beach-Broad Channel rocket ride on the A. The interesting part was, I saw that E train pass us in the opposite direction at one point, and convinced my mother to wait for it. Well, we waited for it at either 80th or 88th St. - and waited, and waited, and waited. My mother was getting impatient, as we had a bus to catch. Finally, it arrived and we boarded. It was an R-6/7 consist, and it really moved along Fulton St. I don't remember how high the bull and pinion gears got up to, probably F# above middle C at least.
Eric--According to the line description in the back of the 1972 map, it seemed that only a cople of "E" trains started out at Lefferts btwn 715-745AM approx. While on the subject, it seemed that "KK" trains at the time only ran from Jamaica-168 ST in the Am from 710-820. Otherwise, all "KK" service ran from 57 St to Eastern Parkway only. The original "KK" brochure from 1968 stated that "KK" service ran to 168 St during both the AM and PM rush hours. When was THAT eliminated?? Tony
The only E's to Lefferts were always put ins.
The K (single) began going only to Eastern Pkwy with the 2nd 1972 map.
**The following is a completely fictitious story. Facts may have been altered and excaggerated. The ending is not complete**
Here's a little railroad tale about a man who made the trains go faster than they were made.
His trains were all he had since his family passed on. And women just saw his shortcomings
because at 5'2 he stood.
He started his railroading days with the New York City transit authority. He started his days on the F line, operating the R46 trains out of Jamaica yard for the PM shift, from 2 to 9pm weekdays. This was a busy time for the Queens Blvd line. Schoolkids often caused trouble with BIE's and crime. And rush hour congestion waiting before 5th and 53rd for E's and F's with door holding. But here the "madman" (so his fellow employees called him) shined.
He made sure his trains were on time. After deadheading to 179st for his first run, he beat the E's
Forest Hills. He hated the timers Manhattan bound after Forest Hills. Everytime you picked up decent speed, there was a yellow and an S glaring him in the face. He braked hard and pushed them to the max but never ever got tripped.
At Roosevelt avenue he hated, because rude riders held doors and delayed the trains, often an interchange point for troublesome school kids. He then wrapped it flying past 65st making that R46 scream, right through the Northern Blvd tunnels at almost 50mph. Passangers and the C/R knew this guy was crazy, because you got yourself slammed around in that curve. A hard brake for the new timers before the 63rd street interlocking, then he wrapped it again, only to slam into Queens Plaza. Thanks to his speed his pax got out to make a G or an R across the platform.
53rd street Manhattan bound was fairly easy, after dealing with the initial timers the trains sped through the tunnel and popped people's ears at the Roosevelt Island shaft exit.
The Manhattan run was always frustrating, since the "madman" saw the Q train, which was his favorite line he hoped someday to operate.
Brooklyn was a more relaxing run, as F's moved along pretty well there, and the ocean air always relaxed him. Queens bound rush to Queens was another headache. But if no trains were in front he's wrap it through 53rd street tube, even if people were packed in there like sardines. The C/R felt like saying "hold on" through the PA but that would annoy the "madman".
He loved the express run from Roosevelt to Forest Hills. After dealing with a few timers just after Elmhurst avenue he wrapped it 5 seconds before the last one cleared, making Grand and Woodhaven a pure blur, at nearly 50mph. After the uphill before 67 Dr he'd wrap it into Forest Hills, often pushing 50mph before the hard rumbling brake into Forest Hills. The people in charge of wheel smoothing at C.I. knew him well, his rough braking put wheels in the shop for smoothing the flat spots.
Well after a year or so at the TA he was offered a job on the Q. He sure made those R40s fly through the 6th ave dash, often scaring riders who thought he'd miss W4th. And the brighton express was simply exhilerating, as he passed one lumbering D train after another.
Of course he had his bad experiences at the TA. Many couples at night would lean on the cab door in the R46's, often it was a tall 6 foot guy making out with a woman that was 5 feet or so. Not only did the "madman" find this behavior distracting, it made him even more mad. He'd often brake hard just to tear the jock off his "daughter".
He never had too many problems on the Q though. He found Q riders to be a little more behaved, with less yuppies and snobs like on the F. \
After quite a few years he was offered a job on the LIRR, one of MTA's commuter railroads. Now he loved the subway, and enjoyed his Q line, but he wasn't happy that his beloved R40's were being replaced with those lumbering trains now used on the D. Plus LIRR had better pay, more vacation time and best of all, faster trains. He did well in training, with very quick response times to the ASC and knowing the FRA rules.
He starting doing off peak runs on the Port Washington line. And since LIRR runs often with the first car closed, he encountered no passengers. Of course this line didn't have to many fast stretches, curves and speed restrictions galore. And he knew he couldn't brake hard with the M-1's. But between Flushing and Woodide he wrapped it. The M-1's shook like hell, because their wheels were full of flat spots. Manhattan bound there were usually no diverting tracks so he flew past Sunnyside at 60mph and that bell rang a few times but he was on top of it.
The mgmt put him on the PW peak runs after a year. With most stops in Queens skipped the "madman" let loose. He started his day on the Babylon line. He did a run around 2pm, with stops only at Babylon, Jamaica and Penn station. Oh he loved that Babylon express. He definately did the MAS of 80mph the whole way. With no grade crossings the towns of Lindenhurst, Massapequa, Wantagh, and Merrick just flew by, often as pax got the vibrator treatment from those worn out wheels. Often people got a good jerk as they neared Lynbrook to slow for the interlocking, but the power towers flew by as the train gained speed after Valley Stream. Then a fast brake to slow at Jamaica interlocking and the stop at Jamaica. Jamaica was always a very crowded station. But nonetheless things usually went fairly smoothly.
The train flew past Forest Hills and Kew Gardens, the "madman" loved using that horn. In his own mind he wanted to let the women on the platform know something. What it was, we are not clear on. Maybe he just wanted to scare some of the tall guys away from the women on the platform. Of course Woodside was an "info zone" so full speed could not be attained there, plus around Sunnyside he had to slow down for several track switches and watch for bums and teens walking on the tracks.
After arriving at Penn station he got a 90 minute dinner break. He often ate at Wendy's, but hated to see all the women with the tall guys. He's seen women and often complimented them, as well as using the "internet". But he found no luck, as there was almost never a reply. They all wanted to hook up with tall guys.
After eating the "madman" felt quite small in the crowds of Penn station. The afternoon rush is beginning, and the confining place it already is gets even more so. Almost every man is taller than him and he knows he won't even think of approaching a woman here, even though he is eye level with lots of women. Well back down to the platform, the crew is pulling in his PEAK train to Port Washington. The platform is already crowded with cell phone yappers.
The doors open and he immediately opens the cab and closes the door. Many engineers leave the cab door open even though it is against the rules, but the "madman" feels that this obstructs the view for people to look out the window, plus he doesn't want to deal with hearing ringing phones and the smell of a spilled Starbucks coffee.
Often the train wouldn't get out on time thanks to door holding. Sometimes he'd have to get out of his cab and watch the doors, often angrily yelling at tall guys who try to impress women running for the train holding the doors open. Sadly it usually worked, the tall guys snag a seat next to the woman.
Finally the doors get closed and the train pulls out. The lights flicker out and then on again, and hopefully the A/C goes back on without an MA reset. Once clear of the switches he wraps it as soon as the bells stop. The orange tunnel lights fly by and those with sensitive ears get ready.
After a quick ride in the tunnel the train crawls to Woodside. His train stops at Woodside to pick up more people. The train is pretty crowded, and he can hear the "excuse me's" from outside his cab as people squeeze on in. The next stop is Bayside. The train races through at 70mph and blows through Flushing with horns and all. Those under the crowded LIRR overpass think there's an earthquake. The train arrives at Bayside 5 minutes later, often losing about 40% of it's riders, since many of the fancy good looking women don't want to ride a 7 train. Next stop is Great Neck, where the train empties out more. Often held at Great Neck waiting for a train from PW to clear the single track. By PW the train is a mess. People have left behind coffee cups, newspapers, all kinds of trash. The "madman" finds the riders on the PW line often quite fifthy and rude, even though they made lots of money and sure dress nice. Also the "madman" finds alot of the women who ride this line attractive, petite and dark haired. But he'll often see a tall guy waiting for the woman on the platform.
One fateful day the "madman" is operating his train on the weekend just before Flushing, when he sees a small asian woman making out with a tall guy right on the tracks! Now this is where the story ends, now you be the engineer!
John, Maybe if you had a job or a education, you can get the women you always wanted. Now stop wasting space with you sick, selfish shit.
Hey lighten up it was just a story! I am not the "madman". Heck I'd have chinese food on my break and wouldn't look at the women that ride the PW line.
And if I was the "madman" I would've pulled the brake and called the cops (or is it MTA police) to arrest the tresspassers.
One fateful day the "madman" is operating his train on the weekend just before Flushing, when he sees a small asian woman making out with a tall guy right on the tracks! Now this is where the story ends, now you be the engineer!
In one word, if you can call it a word, SQUISH!!
The "madman" runs over the couple and is charged with double murder as a buff who is standing by the railfan window says that the "madman" in the cab was laughing just before and after the double 12-9 took place.
The "madman" was sentenced to two 25 years to life terms to be served consecutively. The "madman" no longer has to worry about being too short for girls as he has become the bitch for his cellmate "Mandingo". The "madman" now has difficulties sitting down.
The End (pardon the pun).
Well if I were him I would've pulled the brake. No matter how much you hate someone it is a sin to kill them. A couple of idiots aren't worth your job or freedom! Hopefully the train would stop in time and the tresspassers would've just gotten arrested.
The graffitti is real bad in the open cut near Flushing. Those guys (or gals) are really taking a chance because at night it is pitch black down there and the engineer would not be able to see the tresspassers in time.
Who arrests people walking on LIRR ROW anyway? Can the local PD do it or does the MTA police have to do it?
Anyone can do it. If it was called into central, the responding officer would probably request the dispatcher to call the MTA PD desk.
P.S. You are pathetic, im sorry to say, why publiclt admit you are desperate, suntalk sure as hell aint gonna get you any nor does it impress girls. Goddmnit man. come on, get a job get a car get fit, get educated. Im only oh so many years old and...well never mind.
LOL!!
BMTman
What! No mention of "mystical" girls ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The madman, unlike me was not interested in "mystical" girls.
Besides I'd never leave NYCT for LIRR. The LIRR has tons of rules to remember and probably more pressure than the subway, mainly because LI is an FRA RR.
Besides subway commuters are much friendlier than those rude LIRR commuters. What leave the Q and give up my Brighton run and dash? No way! Even with the 68's it can't be all that bad.
So what would you rather work for, subway or LIRR?
About an hour ago (4-4:15PM) a Metro North commuter train made up of one Genesis engine and some Bombardier push pull coaches struck a shopping cart on the tracks in the Bronx. The engine dragged the cart for a short distance starting a fire under the pilot truck. Some blackness was seen on engine body where the flames were. Power was shut off and no trains were using the Hudson Line in both directions. It seems that at time of broadcast, the fire was out and the news speculated of possible resumption of service. Some brush fires were started by the sparking shopping cart. Those fires seemed to be out. The Genesis engine was only fire damaged, not a total loss. Hard to see number because of helicopter angle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Service resumed as of 5:30PM and update showed a Metro North high hood GP-? pushing the consist to the University Heights station so passengers could leave train and take another one to resume their commute.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am going to stick my neck out here and speculate that the shopping cart wasn't there by accident. I assume the police are involved.
I am going to stick my neck out here and speculate that the shopping cart wasn't there by accident. I assume the police are involved.
I saw the story on Channel 2 at 4pm- it was engine 218.
I'm going to go out on a ledge here and assume the shopping cart may not have been there by accident. I assume the police are involved.
I was on a Metro North Harlem line train the other day, when something was thrown at the train. I was in the first car. It was loud, and banged up against the side of the car, which caused some sparks.
When I was riding the Acela Express back to NYC from Boston, two kids threw a rock each at the Acela. I can't remember if it happened near Route 128 or near Back Bay. One rock hit the window on the right side of my business class car. The next rock hit one of the rearmost window on the right side of the cafe car.
I wonder if this is a new trend. Throw crap at the trains and put stuff in the tracks and try to kill people.
I think the glass on the Acela Express is double paned or something because the outside sheet was shattered but the inside sheet was ok.
Shawn.
"wonder if this is a new trend. Throw crap at the trains and put stuff in the tracks and try to kill people."
It's an old story. Freight crews live in constant fear of it.
If I had seen something like that the train were moving slowly enough I would have shot a picture of them and given it to the police.
Attacking passenger trains is a little more extreme than attacking freight trains I think. I'm not condoning either of them. But with passenger trains you're risking the lives of lots of people. With freights.. unless people are trying to flip hazmat cars, then there's less human injury involved.
Shawn.
Agreed that the number of people at risk is higher on a passenger train. Because of the freights' generally lower speeds, however, the rock-thrower is more likely to hit the locomotive cab and seriously injure the engineer.
Age old story. I've heard of stories of wire milk boxes , old fashioned bed springs etc being thrown down in places like the Sea Beach and Brighton cuts, and a stretch of the L line near Wilson. Once the train hit it and it grounded out...boom.
One poor guy I knew got shot on the then LL in Brownsville from a sniper on a building; recovered and after I moved away my mom sent me a news clipping that the same poor guy got his skull crushed by a 15 lb. boulder that came thru his cab window. Dropped from above the tunnel portal. Too bad the [severely censored] that was smart enough to time dropping that rock so perfectly couldn't use that warped intelligence in a better way.
If anybody noticed in the last years of cabooses most of the windows were plated over for the same reasons, and the FRA started requiring the glass discussed in other thread on locomotives and cabooses.Nice society, isn't it. Yes, supposed to be bulletproof.
Again, nothing new. How many years now have the Northeast corridor Amtrak locos had that ugly wire screen over the windshields?
On the victim side a friend of mine now retired worked the New Haven, PC, etc for a long time on the commuter runs...was coming up the Park Ave cut somewhere around Tremont one night and a carload of drunks ran thru the fence and landed on the tracks in front of him but luckily in stopping distance. You can imagine the scene when that car grounded on the 3rd rail and the tank blew.
Damn tresspassers. Do they actually crack down on RR trasspassers?
Hey everyone. I got back to New York last night. I had a pretty fun time in Boston. I didn't do much railfanning since I went with some friends of mine. The Acela Express was one of the most coolest things I've ever seen in my life. I rode trainset 7 up to Boston which has 2032 & 2034 as the power cars. I rode trainset 5 back to NYC. The power cars of that trainset were 2020 & 2009. While waiting for my train to arrive at South Station I saw trainset 11, which has power cars 2017 & 2036. This train pulled out and a few minutes later, my train arrived.
I took some pictures of two different Acela power cars while waiting for my train at South Station as well as an old Amtrack diesel which was idling near the end of a track. I also got to see some MBTA commuter trains in action. I'll have picture back later on this week hopefully.
I wasn't very impressed at all with the MBTA subway. The only real highlight was a newer Bombardier trainset on the red line. I didn't ride any Type 8s on the green line the whole time I was there. I really don't remember seeing any also. I found it strange that their 3rd rail isn't covered, doors open on both sides in some stations and that you can walk right infront of the trains of the green line at the Park street station :) I did ride a train from each line for atleast one stop :)
I stayed at the Howard Johnson's on Boylston Street. I would not recommend staying there. It's a decent walk away from the nearest green line station (Kenmore). Also, after servicing my room one day, they forgot to close the door behind them. Luckily, nothing was stolen.
Overall I enjoyed my little vacation. I think my next trip will be Amtrak to Virginia later on this summer.
Shawn.
Oh yeah.. I forgot to mention. We hit 148mph between Connecticut and Rhode Island. I was hanging out around the conductor's cabin in the cafe car :)
Shawn.
I did ride a train from each line for atleast one stop :)
Hey, so did I! Then again, that's not difficult -- they form a tight loop downtown. In fact, the only line I rode more than one stop was the Green (B branch). Then again, I was only there for a day.
About 5:45 I was heading home from work and my 'Z' train pulls into Broadway Junction. I got a glimpse of a train that was on the center track heading into the yard. It looks like one of the new '6' trains they have been running(R-142?), but without the LCD Display and obviously longer cars. Is that an R-160? What up with that?
It's the first test R143, and I missed it by 20 minutes! Dammit!
lol. Im sure you will get another chance. I looks kinda plain and simple, lets see how long it holds up to the neighborhood artists lol. I carry my digital camera almost everywhere I go (Yes sometimes the clubs too) next time I spot it I'll take a few shots
I am doing the 5:25 "Z" tommow may be I will get to see them. If anyone wants to ride with me just come and meet the at Broad Street then. I am a big man (White to be more persice), who has wears glasses if anyone is there let me know. I keep my door open a little bit so I can get some air into the cab. Maybe I will see someone there, tell me your screen name. I don't know the rest of my trips becouse of the GO's this is the only trip I know that I am going to do for shore into the city.
Hope to see see you there.
Robert
Robert
I don't know when we'll be seeing them in the "East" again. I heard they were going to be transferred to Pitkin Yard, and undergo testing out on the flats. Well, tonight I was at B'way-Myrtle waiting to make my 23:15 M back to Met Av., and they came through southbound at 23:09, so I imagine that's where they were going.
About time that you came out from under that rock that you've been hiding under!!!
A TSS sad that the R143's were going to be transfersed in the next day or to the pikin yard. So I guess that it was yesterday. As for my 5:25p "Z" trip I did not do it. The G.O. work bad my last trip the 5:45p "Z" from braod street. So I got an extra 30min for a late clear.
Robert
Most likely an R143. So they are beginning to test them. Wonder how long before we see one in actual revenue service.
French railways
Trčs grand void
May 31st 2001
From The Economist print edition
World class in both speed and losses
AP
France’s expensive toy
LOUIS GALLOIS, the boss of SNCF (the French state railway operator), was radiantly happy glugging champagne in front of the television cameras last weekend, after a French high-speed train (TGV) had matched Japan’s world record for long-distance speed. The TGV covered the 663 miles (1,067km) from Calais to Marseilles in three-and-a-half hours, at an average speed of 190 miles an hour (306kph). At one point, the train clocked 366kph [227 mph], in a stunt organised by Mr Gallois to publicise the opening next week of the high-speed service from Paris to Marseilles. But it was of more than symbolic importance. It means that the impressive TGV network now covers the entire length and breadth of France.
Viewed from the English side of the Channel, the achievement is breathtaking. Once the new TGV service starts, it will be possible to travel from London’s Waterloo station to Marseilles in about six hours—two hours fewer than it takes to travel by train from London to Inverness in Scotland. There is talk of a direct train from Waterloo to the new Marseilles St Charles station. For Parisians, it means they can escape the cold and wet of the French capital to reach the balmy Côte d’Azur in just three hours—one hour 20 minutes less than the old service.
But there is another side to this tale of gloire: the French may rival Japan in their brilliant inter-city rail network, but, as taxpayers, they pay dearly for the privilege. There is a huge black hole in the railways’ accounts, into which billions of euros are poured each year. And there are parts of the network (notably the Ile de France area around Paris) where consumers are revolting against the horrible state of a train service that is reminiscent of southern England’s, with traffic outgrowing capacity and track and rolling stock wearing out too quickly.
On the surface, it looks as though the railways are making only a small loss of FFr1 billion ($130m), the figure expected this year after punishing strikes over Easter. But that is just the tip of un trčs grand iceberg. The real horror of French rail finances is buried in another company, called Réseau Ferré de France (RFF). RFF owns the track and signals, and charges SNCF, the sole national operator, for access. But it pays SNCF, in turn, for managing the network.
In the mid-1990s, the European Commission was pressing the French to separate track and rail operations in the interests of greater financial transparency, and also to open the way for some competition on the tracks. Eventually, the French opted for separation in 1997, but for a different reason: SNCF as it was then constituted was going as bust as only a nationalised industry could, halfway through spending FFr300 billion on its TGV network. So the huge debts were shunted into the new state-owned company—where the grim financial picture is still tucked away.
The accounts for 2000 show RFF running at a loss of euro1.7 billion a year. But the true figure is in fact much higher, because there is, in addition, a subsidy from the government of euro1.6 billion. Now that SNCF is itself slipping back into the red, that means that the total losses on French railways are around euro3.5 billion a year.
And the future looks even bleaker. The long-term debt inherited by RFF has risen from euro20.7 billion four years ago to euro22.8 billion, and there is little prospect of reducing it by much. So, over the past three years, under a programme known as “reform of reform”, the company has tapped the international capital markets for loans worth euro18.5 billion, not to spend on shiny new lines but just to refinance its old debts.
As a result, RFF pays interest charges amounting to euro2.4 billion a year. That is almost as great as its biggest trading expense, the euro2.6 billion it pays to SNCF for managing the network . Since the state guarantees the debt, RFF gets an extra subsidy in that it does not have to pay full market interest rates. In addition, RFF in its first four years enjoyed about euro5.4 billion of capital provided by the state. Each year the government puts in new equity to cover the loss: last year the figure was euro1.9 billion.
RFF is supposed to get itself into profit and start paying down its debts, but there is no reasonable prospect of that happening. Mr Gallois has been making noises for some months about redefining SNCF’s financial relations with RFF and the state. This year the 250km extension of the line to Marseilles will put up his access charges to euro1.7 billion. SNCF complains that the track charges will swallow all its passenger revenues on the Marseilles run.
Mr Gallois thinks that the government should just bite the bullet and take over the debts on RFF’s books, in effect writing off the infrastructure investment of building the high-speed network. In that way SNCF might win lower access charges. In practice, however, the government has asked RFF to reduce its borrowings by about half over the next ten years, and the European Commission is increasingly critical of France’s support for its railways, expecting a more commercial framework and the opening of at least some lines to competition. The first customers for Marseilles will be paying about euro62 for an off-peak single ticket, or euro75 at rush-hour. That may yet turn out to be a short-lived bargain at the taxpayer’s expense.
I read the article, but do not agree with it. The French have separate rail and train operators. The rail system loses money, relative to the amount of money the train operator(s) pay.
The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else.
Once you had a quality, free road network built with tax dollars, the comparison for rail shifted. The cost of the ROW should not be included.
And no, I don't accept that gas taxes fund the roads. I consider those to be charges in exchange for use of the air for "trash", not charges in exchange for use of the road.
I agree with much of what you've written.
Plus, consider this: Every passenger on TGVis one less on the road - how many fewer road repairs do you need in a country where trains are heavily used?
>>> The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else. <<<
Larry;
You seem to have a knee jerk defense of rail systems whenever any figures are given showing that subsidies are given to rail systems.
The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air. That said, all four modes of transportation are needed, and all four are subsidized to a certain extent. If a new road, or rail line is being considered, construction costs must be taken into consideration. For existing routes, maintenance and eventual replacement costs must be considered. Although all costs must be considered, the lowest cost is not necessarily the best solution in every case. Transportation has to planned as an integrated system both regionally and nationally.
Tom
>>considering all
costs of each mode. <<
yes indeed The major issue is which 'externalities' do you exclude, and usually by excluding major 'social' costs the figures get skewed.
For instance, few pro automobile studies reflect the massive real estate tax losses in 1, taking land off the rolls to 'use for highways, and 2 the lowered values for residences directly adjacent.
Then of course, there are the costs in 'public health' from smog etc. Delving deeper, auto users get subsidized fuel--the cost of US armed forces "protecting" the Saudis and friends is not part of the price.
Ultimately I believe. the economics are so fraudulent in most of these debates that they should simply be ignored. Thre decisions should be made on more 'social equity', environmental survival bases.
If everyone were as reasonable as that, we wouldn't have half the problems we do. Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US. It frustrates me too.
But I agree with your post.
(The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is
that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air.)
(Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US.)
No, it is based on the assumption that considering all costs -- INCLUDING THE VALUE OF THE LAND REMOVED FROM OTHER USES and garbage disposal in the atmosphere -- rail is cheaper, but not all costs are accounted for. All costs are not generally accounted for, but if Old Tom were right, that would be different.
Well, despite problems mentioned here, I spotted both the R-142 and R-142a today. They seem to be running just fine. Especially since their both running during the rush hours. Whatever BIG R-142 problems there were, they must have been cleared up.
...an addendum also mentioned that the "problematic"
142a unit was pulled from service for (ruptured brake
pipe)... and that subsequently all other units would
be pulled as well.. to undergo shop treatment.
That has got to be one of the stupidest posts ever. Don't Redbirds have ruptured brake pipes? Yes they do? Don't all cars have ruptured brake pipes once in a while? Yes they do.
Well yea... but to have one THIS early in your
work career???... even more critical to have one
at a time when your makers are "having their
feet put to the fire" courtesy of the MTA brass
over the QUALITY of this overpriced
Kobe, Japan armadillo...
I don't know how the REDBIRD fleet performed in
it's TESTING / "newborn" days... but from my
perch, those r142s sure have racked up A LOT
of shop treatment hours...... for beginners.
Psst...Salaam... watch the r142 afficionados go into
'shock treatment' as the 142s go in for 'shop treatment..
It can happen to any cars, any time.
Listen you idiot, first of all, the R142s have been put into the shop for a variety of minor problems. I'll take the time to list them here...
-Bad Announcements (Ooooh Crippling!)
-Brakes Not Up To TA Standards (That Means They Didn't Stop EXACTLY When the TA Felt They Should)
-Going Too Fast (Yep, Faster Than Those Rustbirds You Cream Your Pants Over)
-A Brake Rupture (On One Car Mind You, AND A Problem That Can Happen On Any Car, Rustbirds Included)
That about sums up the R142 teething problems. Wow, only FOUR. The way some of you morons posted, these things were the R44/46 of the new millenium. Also, the TA wants these things perfect when they hit the road. If they wanted a fleet of junky trains, they'd keep the Bondo Squad running. These aren't the days where maintenance in the Subway Dpt. was deferred at best, when the Rustbirds when in their heydey. Actually, they never were, they were already rusting back in the 70s! HA! HA! Reliable my ass!
Like it or not Soft Cherry, the Rustbirds will be in the sea in a matter of months. The R142s are the future. You and Salmonella are in no position to do anything about it. Your incessant bitching and moaning will soon fall upon deaf ears. You two are already regarded as some of the most if not THE most ridiculous and idiotic posters on the board.
I suggest you stop whining like a little bitch that just got his candy stolen by the big bully and ride the Redbirds before the only place you can see them is on a scuba diving trip or further rusting away on storage tracks.
Those hideous things are so ugly. I think all subway cars, sans the r142 and r143 are ugly, but those blood red beasts are the worst. I wouldn't be surprised if someone choked on all the rampant rust in the air from those things.
So this is a message to all of the r142 haters....
THE R142S ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!!! IF YOU ARE OVER THIRTY, THEY WILL MOST LIKELY OUTLIVE YOU BARRING SOME TYPE OF AMAZING LIFESPAN LENGTHENING TECHNOLOGY! IN FACT, WITH TECHNOLOGY THE WAY IT IS, THESE THINGS WILL PROBABLY HAVE LIFESPANS THE LENGTH OF THE Q-TYPES!!!!! THAT MEANS THEY WILL HAVE LONGER LIVES THAN THE REDBIRDS!!!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! SO GET USED TO THESE STAINLESS STEEL BEAUTIES RUSTBIRDS FANATICS, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THEM FOR A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME! IF YOU WANT TO SEE RUSTBIRDS BEYOND THE YEAR 2002, I SUGGEST YOU ORDER ONE OF SALMONELLAS TAPES. AT LEAST WE KNOW HE IS DOING SOMETHING WITH HIS TIME.
There, I've said my piece.
Happened to me while I was on my way to school six years ago. I was on a train of R33s on the 2. The train got stuck in the Clark Street Tunnel and after about twenty minutes, TA workers came into my car, 8912, and keyed open the right front side door and went out of the car to inspect the car. Then the train limped into Clark Street and went out of service due to "brake failure." I missed my entire second period class and half of my third period class. Not a fun time.
Definately not a good place to get stuck.
no they will not. the one that was pulled was because it was defective.
I dunno where you heard that, but you heard wrong! I saw an R142A in service this Monday on the 6 train. Only the five-car set with the brake rupture is out of service.
Today, I noticed something: The lay-up space for 6 trains at Bklyn. Bridge: City Hall is AFTER the turn off into the City Hall loop. How do trains get onto that turn around from the Lay-up tracks?
They don't- they are just stub tracks.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
What they do is back up onto the downtown local track, where the 6 trains empty out passengers. Then, they go forward through the loop as any train would. Trains usually done in the evening and just before the rush hour crowds come. I have seen #6 trains, and an R62A #5 train do that just before the evening rush hour a couple of times. Nothing new.
CWalNYC
R62A_1776
So, that was a 5 I saw at Brooklyn Bridge!
Then, I have another question:
So they terminate 5 trains at Brooklyn Bridge? It seems hard to get a 5 there from Bowling Green or even more so from Flatbush.
They don't generally "terminate" any trains at Brooklyn Bridge. Locals go around the City Hall Loop (w/o passengers, as we all know) and return to the Bronx. Express trains go either to Brooklyn or into the inner loop at South Ferry(also w/o pax), from which they also return to the Bronx. Perhaps the 5 train you saw on the layup track had a problem that required attention before it was safe to move it back to the yard.
First, I'd like to complain that those new light rail cars are NOT running YEt. When will they start running??? When are they going to finish Branch Brook Park Station so that the Kinkisharyo cars can run already???
Another thing? Where is the Newark City Subway Yard?? Is it near those tracks that go to the right just past Newark Penn Station or somewhere else? I thought those tracks were to be used for a possible Newark Broad Street Station expansion. Well, let me know ASAP, if you can. Thanx.
CWalNYC
NJT_Newark_Subway_PCC_#23
When are they going to finish Branch Brook Park Station so that the Kinkisharyo cars can run already???
The station is finished.
Okay, so are the light rail cars running or not??? I am anxious to see the day that they run on Newark City Subway tracks.
CWalNYC
Kinkisharyo_LRT_107A/B
The Newark City Subway still features PCCs. The date for switchover to LRVs keeps getting pushed back.
David
You are about 7 miles in the wrong direction, the new subway yards for the NCS are actually in Bloomfield, they are at the end of the line the opposite direction (end) from Newark Penn, they are at Grove St and Watsessing ave in Bloomfield also the new terminal for the NCS.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
How strong is FRA Type 2 safety glass? Can it withstand a large object thrown at the train at high speed?
Reprotedly, it will stop a small caliber bulletat a reasonable distance
Isn't the TA glass FRA Type III?
There used to be a sticker on the SIR R44's to that effect. Type 3 only for SIR?
I believe the TA has only type II except perhaps on the R142. There are 2 types of type II. There is heat treated and there is chemically treated glass.
The first contract for the El replacement has hit the street (Cobbs Creek west) and bids are due in late July.
Just arrived with diesels at 2300 hours from Linden Yard heading to East 180th Street.
-Stef
I know that they were running the R-110's on the C line not too long ago and that according to a link from the R-110 info page, they are departing from 168th St. at approximately 10 Am. However, at the same time, I know that the C starts running from 145 st by that time. First and foremost, is the R-110 still running and if so, does anyone know its present schedule. Thanks. --Kevin.
They're all being worked on in 207th St yard
Doe ALL mean six or nine cars?
avid
ALL means all remaining cars; the MTA cannibalized one three-car set for parts, so there are only two sets or six cars functioning.
Dan
Thats why I had asked. Foolish me, I thought the TA might have been restoring ALL of the cars. What was I thinking? I guess I'll never learn....
avid
I saw all 9 in the yard. Some were in the barn (track 19) and others were outside next to the 142's.
The 110A is now inside the barn at Pitkin
>>I thought the TA might have been restoring ALL of the cars. What was I thinking? I guess I'll never learn....<<
avid: you may be right. someone here posted that the 3 cannabalized cars were awaiting parts and returning to service. This was on this site though, so it could be wrong.
The last time I was at 207th Street, they were working on the 3 cars that were cannibalized. Yje plan is to restore all 9 cars...
to have white seats?
When does the C train run from 145th Street. I thought that as a result of the terminal switch with the B from around March 1998, all C trains alwasys run to and from 168. Am I correct?
Bill/Piggo
Correct! C trains no longer terminate at 145, due to the B/C terminal switch of 1 March 1998.
Also, the R131 (R110B) cars run out of 207th Street yard.
"Also, the R131 (R110B) cars run ut of 207th Street yard"
R131?!? When did that designation come about? Does anyone have the real story as to what the TA intends to do with this equipment and the R110A (Is there a new designation for that one as well?)
The last I heard was that the three canibalized R110B units were awaiting parts for restoration and return to service.
And that the R110A was to be shipped out to KHI for conversion to R142 specs and returned to service.
That has always been the designation - R110A/B were the design contracts; R130/131 were the build contracts.
If that is the members.aol.com/orentree thing, that is my site and I no longer maintain that page.
With all of this talk of the most successful subway cars of all time, I have to admit that I feel that the Chicago 6000-series cars are synonymous with the Windy City still (even though they have long since been retired). Anytime I watch TV and see old clips featuring these relics (esp. w/ the blinker doors) I say "CHICAGO" (any "Bob Newhart" or "Good Times" fan can relate!!). Tony
YES although the new vcars are ADA, have AC(great!), the 11 year old still inside is standing at the front door nose to glass looking at everything as we grind south from the Loop on a "Jackson Park B Train.
Going back to my 1961 and 1963 visits to Chi town...can't remember wind blowing there very often....I did as much mileage as I could on the old 4000's which were more to my liking as I started life on the original IRT stuff, R1-9 etc.
Did ride the 6000's to cover lines where they were the sole rolling stock; the Howard-Jackson Park line was a blast; loved the South side el just south of the loop...long before there were any speed controls. Damn pity it doesn't go to Jackson Park anymore.
In my youth I never was a fan of PCC cars in any form but later got to respect them for the years they served, and the 6000's were no exception. They could highball along even if they were noisy enough to make the R10 sound quiet; at least I thought so.
As I was riding in car 6331 coming home from work, I spotted R142 cars 6596-6600 going up M track at Intervale Avenue. This was around 11:00pm. Yes, they were hauled in by diesels....
I spotted that train! You were coming from work? The GO on the 2 for South Ferry is in effect again this coming weekend. I'll be riding it once I'm done working at Bowling Green. It's a one seat ride home for me....
-Stef
Hey Mister, how do I get to the Ferry??
Can I buy a fun pass?
No the Statue of Liberty Ferry... ;-P
Trying to be a wise guy? Nyuk, nyuk!
-Stef
Yeah, I had a job on the 5. Make sure to go to Wall Street to get the 2. It does not stop @ BG.
It doesn't stop at BG in either direction? I thought it would at least stop at Bowling Green on the way into Wall St.
-Stef
ehh, no... if this GO is similar to the one last fall,
the 2 scoots RIGHT THRU Bowling Green.. sans stop.
Which GO is this? Is this the one where the 2 runs through the inner loop at South Ferry and then back up the 5 line?
Dan
It's a night GO where the 2 from Brooklyn operates on the 4 to Wall St, changes directions at Wall St, and travels by the South Ferry Loop to Chambers St before resuming normal service uptown.
-Stef
I read the article, but do not agree with it. The French have separate rail and train operators. The rail system loses money, relative to the amount of money the train operator(s) pay.
The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else.
Once you had a quality, free road network built with tax dollars, the comparison for rail shifted. The cost of the ROW should not be included.
And no, I don't accept that gas taxes fund the roads. I consider those to be charges in exchange for use of the air for "trash", not charges in exchange for use of the road.
I agree with much of what you've written.
Plus, consider this: Every passenger on TGVis one less on the road - how many fewer road repairs do you need in a country where trains are heavily used?
>>> The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else. <<<
Larry;
You seem to have a knee jerk defense of rail systems whenever any figures are given showing that subsidies are given to rail systems.
The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air. That said, all four modes of transportation are needed, and all four are subsidized to a certain extent. If a new road, or rail line is being considered, construction costs must be taken into consideration. For existing routes, maintenance and eventual replacement costs must be considered. Although all costs must be considered, the lowest cost is not necessarily the best solution in every case. Transportation has to planned as an integrated system both regionally and nationally.
Tom
>>considering all
costs of each mode. <<
yes indeed The major issue is which 'externalities' do you exclude, and usually by excluding major 'social' costs the figures get skewed.
For instance, few pro automobile studies reflect the massive real estate tax losses in 1, taking land off the rolls to 'use for highways, and 2 the lowered values for residences directly adjacent.
Then of course, there are the costs in 'public health' from smog etc. Delving deeper, auto users get subsidized fuel--the cost of US armed forces "protecting" the Saudis and friends is not part of the price.
Ultimately I believe. the economics are so fraudulent in most of these debates that they should simply be ignored. Thre decisions should be made on more 'social equity', environmental survival bases.
If everyone were as reasonable as that, we wouldn't have half the problems we do. Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US. It frustrates me too.
But I agree with your post.
(The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is
that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air.)
(Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US.)
No, it is based on the assumption that considering all costs -- INCLUDING THE VALUE OF THE LAND REMOVED FROM OTHER USES and garbage disposal in the atmosphere -- rail is cheaper, but not all costs are accounted for. All costs are not generally accounted for, but if Old Tom were right, that would be different.
Nonstop from Coney Island to 59th St going to Manhattan, took 4 minutes to 86th, and 11 more to 59th, making a total of 15. We passed one N, and never really cleared 35mph b/c of all the timers, and it's annoying how you have to slow so much to go down the hill to the subway. It took 3 more minutes to 36th, making a total of 18 min from CI to 36th. The NX that used this track was discontinued due to lack of ridership, but I think it would've been more popular if it made at least one or two stops from CI to 59th. Nonstop is really taking it too far. It could've used the local track from CI to Kings Hwy, and then switch and run non-stop. It would then be much better.
The NX was set up to fail. It was put in service to pretend to give something to Brighton Beach riders losing most of their Broadway service.
When it did fail, the TA chiefs must have sighed and said "well, at least we're done with that."
The NX was set up to fail. It was put in service to pretend to give something to Brighton Beach riders losing most of their Broadway service.
When it did fail, the TA chiefs must have sighed and said "well, at least we're done with that."
But did the NX have all those timers back in its Day?
I think not....
Kings Highway-8th Avenue was an absolute block. Any speed restrictions would have been by trackside sign.
Around 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday, the Sixth Avenue platform at Herald Square was empty, save for a few cops and a lot of police tape. Trains passed through the station without stopping (downtown anyway, possibly both directions). What happened?
Well the news didn't say anything (as usual). I guess maybe we'll find out in the paper. Probably some criminal incident.
there was GUN run to past
there was GUN run to past attempted robbery call came in 20 minutes prior to that time, thats what i was told
50th Street Tower (North side Uptown Patform 47th St./50th St. Station on 6th Ave) was out of automatic this morning with a whole bunch of TA guys with radios and ties milling around and telling uptown express T/O's not to punch and one young lady in jeans sitting at the board.
Seems you couldn't get a line up for 57th Street if it was on automatic so it was back to the tired and true methods. The F even had Green over Green but no one stopped those T/O's from punching, to much work for those guys in the ties to call the T/O from the opposite side of the cab I guess. Sure was enough of them.
An old timer T/O even thanked the tower for the lineup, my ears are still ringing....
Heh. Back in my days, there were folks in there and even with route signs and all, they still wanted you to light up the light for them on the big BS board before they'd hand you a clear. I'd make faces at them while they were writing down the car number. :)
Sunday Newsday, Section B, Page 7 has a very pro article by non-Newsday editiors Paul M. Weyrich & William S. Lind. They even included comments from 6 "other voices" in a side bar (NYSDOT, Seashore Chair, rubber tired trolleybus mfg., Tri-State Trans. Compaign rep. & 2 local officials)
While the article is pro in it's text, it has some glaring ommisions:
- Cities where trolleys exist ... missed Boston, Philly & Newark
- Museums ... Seashore of ME, but not Shoreline of CT
- Proposed Nassau Hub system not mentioned
The 1911 photo shows a trolley using a overpass to cross LIRR steam train at Amityville.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I didn't see that piece. Maybe you could summrize it for us?
When the current LI ISTEA planning process started, light rail was nowhere to be found. It was inserted into the mix but then knocked down after it condensed to an absurd loop along several Nassau county parkways.
About the most material reason advanced (off the record) for not attempting to bring light rail to LI is that there is too much demand for it around the nation and that NYS has bigger fish to fry (2nd Avenue Subway, LIRR-GCT, &c.) than to try to compete for light rail funds.
Sunday Nrewsday trolleys article
Other Voices column
I'd be amazed if any city or town in the NY Metro area would ever build a trolley line. The rubber and oil interests are too politically strong trolleys to come back, IMHO.
No, it's not the rubber and oil interests. (They're not powerful in NJ, where HBLR and Camden-Trenton are running/UC?)
It's state politicians and state DOT, whose interest in Light Rail runs from indifferent to hostile.
Right ... there is a NYSDOT Transportation Plan for Long Island that is all roads, no light rail, no LIRR extensions, etc.
Opposing that is a traffic calming effort ... rotarys, bike paths, trees, etc., BUT again no light rail.
That's why I found the Newsday article so interesting, i.e. something no one else is talking about, included some local government supporters.
There was once a plan to create a North-South light rail line from Oyster Bay. I don't think anything like that will happen to existing LIRR ROWs though. More recently there was the Nassau Loop light rail proposal. This or something down Route 110 might have a chance of flying. Freeport to Mineola ... I don't think so, all street running on narrow streets.
Mr t__:^)
The idea of reestablishing the long defunct Freeport to Mineola trolley route would be an excellent one. Two old neighbors of mine in Freeport, Blanche and John W. Bruckner (who died in 1977 and 1978 respectively) spoke often about the streetcar that once ran down the center of Freeport's Main Street on its way to Hempstead. Though it stopped running in 1923 and the tracks were taken up during WWII, the impression it made on that old couple was tremendous. Unfortunately, I doubt that there are many still alive who remember it. Here's hoping that Nassau County wises up and brings it back to life.
E_DOG
It would be nice to bring back trolley service or even trolley bus service, but again Nassau County is a very different mind set, similar to California where the automobile is supreme. Nassau County government has not been pro-transit with the LIBUS and I don't think they would be pro-trolley. On a very local level, there are better chances for that to actually happen. The mayor of Glen Cove is pushing for a trolley system in his city for the new waterfront projects being planned.
Nassau County is nuts, period (about transit and everything else)! How else can you explain it's county government (run by that idiot Thomas (no brains) Gulotta) running up a deficit of over 200 million dollars while practically the rest of the country was showing a surplus?
E_DOG
This is what the government of Nassau County caters to for years. They have never really been proactive when it came to transit because the way people think in Nassau County is PRO-CAR. So for years, very little effort is done to improve mass transit in the county. It would be great if more where done on a county level, but now the way things are, "it ain't happening, at least of a while."
I noticed that the T/O of the LIRR trains on the Far Rock line sounds a series of beeps on the train horn every time it passes a grade crossing. The pattern is : LONG-LONG-Short-LONG.
Is this mandated by some federal law or is it an MTA/LIRR rule?
That has been the standard railroad grade crossing tone since time immemorial--which is my way of saying "I don't know when it started" and it's universal throughout the U.S., at a minimum.
The necessity to sound off at grade crossings is a federal rule. I believe that certain details--how loud the whistle/horn is, when it must be sounded, etc., is state-mandated.
In New York, the part of the rule I know is that the sound must be loud enough to be heard a mile away in the least favorable weather condition, and that the last part of the blast must be sounded until the locomotive actually enters the crossing.
Trivia question for transit fans on the forum: what were the rules at the E.105th Street crossing?
SEPTA does the same. The last long blast must be maintained until the first car, or locomotive, clears the crossing.
LIRR trains preparing to stop at a station (eg New Hyde Park) immediately after the crossing often don't bother with a sustained blast.
States have the authority to allow locales to overrule the whistle rule; Massachusetts has such a law. For example, the town of West Medford has overrulled the rule, and MBTA commuter trains do not blow the whistle at grade crossings.
How fast do MBTA trains run through West Medford? Who is liable if someone gets whacked by an MBTA train not giving an auditory warning? What happens if people in Attleboro want an exemption, too, like the people in West Medford?
MAS at West Medford is 40 mph.
You got me as to who is liable. But the town passed the ordinance...
It would not be an issue in Attleboro, as there are no grade crossings there. But any town that doesn't want the noise, just has to pass the local ordinance.
I think we have a problem, which would quickly come to the fore in a highly politicized place like NY.
Individual towns have asked that trains not blow for grade crossings in the early hours, but to exempt some places would quickly have every little village and hamlet wanting an exemption.
If horn blowing is necessarty, it doesn't make sense that it is necessary for one place but not another.
I'm surprised that people all over the MBTA district aren't passing these laws, or are people more mellow about train horns for some reason?
Up here where we are in Voorheesville, freights blow by about once every ten minutes, blaring all the way (four GC's in the village alone) five loud blasts for each one. All through the night as well. You *DO* get used to it and while some folks here complain, it is after all a railroad town. Ya don't like it, MOVE. :)
One might hope (expect?) that when you move somewhere, you might stop, look and listen and see if there's a railroad about. If the sounds of choochoos are irksome, perhaps you might want to live somewhere else?
When I lived in the Bronx, we had the third avenue el RIGHT outside the window and when I lived elsewhere, the el wasn't far away. Now elevateds are a whole lot NOISIER than plain old railroads on the ground. When I went away from the city, I found I couldn't sleep as well WITHOUT the trains and around here, I tend to not sleep as well when I *don't* hear the horns.
Then again, I hang out here on subtalk so there's something fundamentally WRONG with me. :)
I read a story about one guy who spent his youngest years by the 3rd Ave. el [Back In the Bronx magazine which I get] and slept well with the sound of the trains. When they moved to another neighborhood with no el he had to get a Lionel set to run at night so he could sleep. True story.
I lived on Walton off Tremont for a while and my living room faced the Jerome El. The trains never bothered me except when watching TV and a train ALWAYS went by when the punchline came. Not just the thunder but the picture would jump up and down. Then again low flying planes did that too.
A tape recorder might have been less expensive.
When I moved to LA from New York in time for the sixth grade, it was too quiet! I had to get used to sleeping without the comforting sound of the 4 train rumbling out of 161rst St station. It took a while.
Many towns have anti-whistle ordinances in eastern Massachusetts. In fact I recall very few MBTA lines I've ridden where the horns are sounded.
Here's an interesting article from about four years ago.
And another from last year.
And another.
Wonder if any north shore LI towns ban horn blowing as well?
No one bans train horn sounding on LI because NYS says you can't.
"No one bans train horn sounding on LI because NYS says you can't."
Smile....
They don't sound the horns in Merrick anymore. : )
If you pay enough money, you *can* make the horns go away.
Elias
There are no grade crossings in Merrick. If you want to hear horns, stand on the Merrick Station platform around 6:40 AM M-F. My regular train blows through every station.
"There are no grade crossings in Merrick."
Hehehehehe......
Funny, they were there when I was a kid! : )
I used to take the 6:06 from there back in the early 80's, It was train 93 in those days) but of course that was long after the grade crossing elimination.
Elias
I sincerely doubt that train whistle-blowing hurts property values - esp. in places where the railroad made the land valuable in the first place, as in the article. There's no data to support that; only anecdotal complaints.
Still, I could see a compromise: trains don't blow whistles at crossings, and (so long as the crossing gate is functioning correctly) railroads are held absolutely immune from any kind of lawsuit should someone get onto the tracks and be run over.
Of course the same city council people wouldn't like that either...You always want to have it both ways....
As a homeowner who lives two blocks from the Cedarhurst LIRR station, I can tell you that the closer you live to the railroad tracks, the less your property is worth. The Cedarhurst station lies between two grade crossings (Washington Avenue and Cedarhurst Avenue), so I get serenaded by two full sets of honking every time a train pulls in and out of the station - in both directions! I personally don't mind because I love trains and its convenient to have the train so close by, but many of our friends have told us that they would never live that close to the train. In Cedarhurst, as well as in nearby Lawrence and Woodmere, the house prices go down the closer you get to the tracks. Also, you'll find more garden apartments and apartment buildings, which are newer than the houses, the closer you get to the tracks in those areas, because the houses that were there were sold to developers after the owners couldn't get the prices they wanted.
Living next to a railway line might've raised property values at the turn of the 20th century, but with the advent of the automobile, railways are no longer perceived to be a necessary inconvenience.
It does seem, in your case, that the horns are the source of most of the problem. Most real estate studies show that the presence of a commuter rail station in the area increases property values. The automobile and roads has done nothing to change that. In fact, as traffic worsens, so do property values.
LIRR got a $50 million state grant to eliminate grade crossings, but this will not cover every crossing.
The best and safest way to deal with an RR crossing is, if possible, to eliminate it.
"Most real estate studies show that the presence of a commuter rail station in the area increases property values."
Yes. And real estate prices and rents in Chicago go up the closer you get to an L station, despite the (in)famous noise of the Ls and the fact that MANY houses and apartment buildings back right onto the line -- lots of alley Ls in Chicago.
That's different - the "L" is a historic landmark. Its kind of like what would've happened in NYC if the 3rd Avenue el had never been torn down - it'd have been a landmark today.
It's got nothing to do with the L being a landmark, because rents and prices go up near modern extensions to the system too. People want to be near an L station because they can get to and from work faster.
The same holds true in the DC area. My younger daughter (a law student at Georgetown) was apartment-hunting this spring because Georgetown doesn't have residence space for second and third year law students. Prices were extremely high for apartments close to a Metro stop; her former roommate (who doesn't own a car) is now paying $850/month plus utilities for a studio apartment three blocks from the metro station (Silver Spring or Forest Glen, I don't remember which). My daughter and her current roommate are paying $1180/month plus utilities for a three bedroom townhouse about 2.5 miles from the Glenmont station, but they'll also have to either ride the bus or drive to the station and pay $2.25/day for parking.
The big advantage of her new location is that I drive right by the National Capital Trolley Museum in Wheaton, about two miles from her place - a good excuse to check up on her if I ever need one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You raise an interesting point. The Five Towns is considered a wealthy area through which the LIRR runs on grade with many street crossings. There are some low-rise apartment buildings, many of them co-ops and condos, along Central Avenue, which parallels the ROW by one block from Inwood through Woodmere. These may have been constructed due to an increasing number of people moving from the city who wanted the suburban ambience AND convenience to the railroad without having to purchase a house.
Great Neck Plaza is another Nassau village loaded with apartment buildings due to its location on the very popular Port Washington line. The area must have become heavily developed much sooner than others on the Island because the cut the railroad runs through dates back from 1912, I think.
Some people feel one branch or another of a railroad undergoes grade-crossing removal because the areas along it are 'richer', witness the Babylon branch, which was completely elevated by 1980. The cynical view is that this was done to appease the residents of Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh et al because they allegedly have money. While this may partially true, the late state senator Norman Levy, a longtime resident of Merrick, was instumental in the grade-crossing elimination. Traffic safety along adjacent Sunrise Highway was another factor.
The Ronkonkoma branch runs ground-level through some impoverished Suffolk communities. There are many crossings in Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip, and the 1987 electrification brought a huge increase in service; hence more down time for the gates. The electrification does seem to have revived Central Islip, with its new baseball stadium and court complex, so it's a double-edged sword.
It's hard to make any argument that "poor areas have crossings, rich areas don't." The completely crossingless Babylon branch also runs through communities of color and some poverty, such as Freeport, Amityville and Copiague. Conversely, wealthier areas like the aforementioned Five Towns, Locust Valley, Saint James and the Hamptons have many crossings. So do upper Bergen County, some of the tonier Philadelphia suburbs, NJT's Gladstone branch and MN's Danbury branch.
Granted, the biggest concentration of crossings along a commuter line I've ever seen- about twelve blocks in a row- is along NJT's Coast Line in downtown Asbury Park, an area noticeably on the skids. It's supposed to be much nicer by the oceanfront; some large mansions and wooded areas are visible a short distance east. But then the Coast Line is crossing-laden its entire length, including the fancy precincts of Middletown, Allenhust, Spring Lake, Manasquan and Bay Head.
So you can draw your own conclusions according to your viewpoint.
Granted, the biggest concentration of crossings along a commuter line I've ever seen- about twelve blocks in a row- is along NJT's Coast Line in downtown Asbury Park, an area noticeably on the skids. It's supposed to be much nicer by the oceanfront
Trust me, the Asbury Park waterfront area is not nicer than anything. It is ... surrealistic, for lack of a better term.
Well, a few points about your post:
1) Central Avenue is not one block from the RR line in Cedarhurst. Its two, and in some places, three blocks from the line.
2) I don't think that there is a correlation between affluence and grade crossing elimination, for the reasons you mention. I do think it has much more to do with the amount of vehicular and pedestrian traffic in the area and safety reasons. The LIRR is elevated along the entire length of the route as it longs along Sunrise Highway, presumably because of the immense tie-ups that would occur if vehicles turning off Sunrise Highway had to wait for trains to pass. The same goes for the recent grade crossing project in Mineola - if I recall correctly, it only occurred after someone was killed trying to cross the tracks.
The bottom line is that the line through the Five Towns will not be elevated until the amount of traffic makes it unsafe to have it at grade. Elevating a line is very expensive and time consuming, not to mention disrupting to the surrounding area. (Also - not everyone likes living near an "el" - so there might be community opposition to it.)
I know the LIRR wants to eliminate all main line crossings between Hicksville and Jamaica, but the NIMBY's in New Hyde Park (which is where the worst danger is IMO) block it.
The crossing at New Hyde Park road is especially congested, and often cars get stopped on the tracks from the back-up at the Jericho Tpke light. This, like the Herricks road crossing, should be the next to go.
Let the NIMBY's go to hell, they are fools to ignore the potential danger at that crossing.
2 crossings west of New Hyde park is Covert Avenue. More train - auto accidents have occurred there over the past 10 years than any other crossing. It would also be the easiest to eliminate but the LIRR wants to do blocks of crossings at a time. There are 4 crossings at mineola. These seem to be the next to be done. It would appear that the 3rd M/L track would go in at that time and the Nassau Junction would be re-designed.
One crossing at Mineola has already been eliminated by bringing the road over the tracks.
As to New Hyde Park - agreed, three RR crossings close together, + irresponsible drivers, = tragedy.
Of course, the NHP crossings have four-quadrant gates, pedestrian gates, extra lights, and bells which continue to ring even after the gates are down. Short of eliminating the crossing entirely, you can't make it safer than that.
I know the LIRR wants to eliminate all main line crossings between Hicksville and Jamaica, but the NIMBY's in New Hyde Park (which is where the worst danger is IMHO) block it.
The crossing at New Hyde Park road is especially congested, and often cars get stopped on the tracks from the back-up at the Jericho Tpke light. This, like the Herricks road crossing, should be the next to go.
Let the NIMBY's go to hell, they are fools to ignore the potential danger at that crossing.
The LIRR is elevated along the entire length of the route as it longs along Sunrise Highway, presumably because of the immense tie-ups that would occur if vehicles turning off Sunrise Highway had to wait for trains to pass. The same goes for the recent grade crossing
project in Mineola - if I recall correctly, it only occurred after someone was killed trying to cross the tracks.
It was worse than that - the incident involved several teens riding in a van. I'm not sure if any of them survived. The crash occurred sometime in the early to mid-1980's, and in addition to getting the Herricks Road grade crossing eliminated it was widely cited as one of the factors which led the Legislature to raise NYS's legal drinking age to 21 (federal requirements would have brought about the same result in a year or two anyhow).
It should not come as any surprise to hear that the LIRR made a complete mess out of the elimination project. Completion took many years and went vastly over budget.
"if I recall correctly, it only occurred after someone was killed trying to cross the tracks."
I think it was 8 teens including the daughter of a state senator that were killed when they went around the gates.
Yes, that was it.
it was widely cited as one of the factors which led the Legislature to raise NYS's legal drinking age to 21 (federal requirements would have brought about the same result in a year or two anyhow).
Another case of punishing a large group for the crimes of the few.
[Herricks Road crash]it was widely cited as one of the factors which led the Legislature to raise NYS's legal drinking age to 21 (federal requirements would have brought about the same result in a year or two anyhow).
Another case of punishing a large group for the crimes of the few.
How true ... punishing everyone is the easy way out, which is why it's appealing to politicians.
It seems there are far too many factors influencing real estate prices to blame the existence or non-existence of grade crossings for relative changes in price. This is especially true on Long Island, where the railroad pre-dates the majority of the housing stock.
In Mitch45's case, I'm sure his home is considerably more valuable than a similar home in the downtown areas of Elmont, East Meadow or Uniondale (all LIRR-less). It is certainly worth more than a similar home in the downtown areas of grade-crossing free Hempstead and Long Beach. In Garden City (likely more similar to Cedarhurst in terms of affluence than any of the afore-mentioned towns), there is no noticable change in housing prices as you get further from the railroad crossings. In fact, the most "affordable" neighborhoods in Garden City are probably those furthest east -- those not in short walking distance to the LIRR.
That houses in the Five Towns are more valuable further away from the tracks likely has much more to do with the availability of larger plots of land further from the railroad, the perceived desirability of waterfront living and the age of the houses in the downtown areas.
CG
Granted, the biggest concentration of crossings along a commuter line I've ever seen - about twelve blocks in a row - is along NJT's Coast Line in downtown Asbury Park, an area noticeably on the skids. It's supposed to be much nicer by the oceanfront; some large mansions and wooded areas are visible a short distance east. But then the Coast Line is crossing-laden its entire length, including the fancy precincts of Middletown, Allenhust, Spring Lake, Manasquan and Bay Head.
Asbury Park is a drug-infested slum. Directly adjacent to it is the town of Ocean Grove, where you see the mansions; all of the land in lily-white, Christian Ocean Grove is owned by the Methodist Church, although you own your structure. The waterfront area of Asbury Park is a wasteland of abandoned hotels and amusement areas, punctuated by gunfire on a regular basis.
Deal, Allenhurst, Interlaken, and Spring Lake are super-fancy areas, and most of the rest of the Coast Line south of Spring Lake is pretty nice too. Middletown is just another suburb, upscale but not exclusive like the others. AT&T has a major facility there, directly adjacent to the tracks; the Middletown station would have been relocated to the edge of the AT&T site a few years back rather than renovated at its present site had NJT been allowed to accept AT&T's offer of the land and the free public parking decks that AT&T would have built for commuters (political pressure from certain influential Middletown residents squashed that).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Middletown is just another suburb, upscale but not exclusive like the others. AT&T has a major facility there, directly adjacent to the tracks; the Middletown station would have been relocated to the edge of the AT&T site a few years back rather than renovated at its present site had NJT been allowed to accept AT&T's offer of the land and the free public parking decks that AT&T would have built for commuters (political pressure from certain influential Middletown residents squashed that).
I'll bet that many of those influential Middletown residents, who kiboshed AT&T's plan to build a new station with parking decks, are bemoaning the lack of parking at the existing station.
I'll bet that many of those influential Middletown residents, who kiboshed AT&T's plan to build a new station with parking decks, are bemoaning the lack of parking at the existing station.
The main issue was the loss of revenue to the town. Middletown, not NJT, owns the two parking lots adjacent to the station, and operates a shuttle service from a third lot a mile or so away. They have oversold the capacity of the lots and restrict the sale of permits to residents of the township, so the only "public" parking available during the week is that provided by 80 metered spots. AT&T would have furnished approximately 4500 parking spaces - more than triple the current capacity - with the proviso that they be perpetually free. In addition to costing the town revenue, this would have brought commuters from other areas (most notably commuters who now drive to the equally packed Hazlet and Aberdeen/Matawan stations), increasing road congestion in the immediate area. NJT would have paid for widening Laurel Avenue where it narrows to cross under the NJCL (the new station access would have been off Laurel Avenue, between the tracks and the AT&T site) and the preferred station plan would have included two center tracks and two island platforms, with the center tracks extending south far enough to lay up two trains each. But such was not to be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"In addition to costing the town revenue, this would have brought commuters from other areas..."
Isn't this the POINT of a commuter train station, to pull in riders from towns not directly along the train line, as well as the station towns? In other words, the station located in a given town isn't supposed to be the God-given exclusive property of that town by accident of physical location.
I live in a first-ring suburb that doesn't have a subway or commuter route through it, but I have no problem parking (for $20 a month) at the station two towns and ten minutes away. If that town got it into its head to keep all non-residents out of the train lots, then ...??
This is one of the big problems with parking at train stations being controlled by the towns and not the commuter rail authority.
Isn't this the POINT of a commuter train station, to pull in riders from towns not directly along the train line, as well as the station towns? In other words, the station located in a given town isn't supposed to be the God-given exclusive property of that town by accident of physical location.
Heh heh, even if I didn't know that you were from Chicago, I could tell clear as day that you're not from New York!
If that town got it into its head to keep all non-residents out of the train lots, then ...??
You gotta remember, this here's Jersey... some would say that it's just revenge for the shore towns charging to you walk on the "public" beach and banning parking on the streets by non-residents during the summer months (you can park in the parking lots for $5 to $10 per day, though...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Deal, Allenhurst, Interlaken, and Spring Lake are super-fancy areas, and most of the rest of the Coast Line south of Spring Lake is pretty nice too.
And let's not forget Belmar, which seems like Party Animal City. I'll bet more beer kegs are sold there on a summer weekend than in other cities with twenty times the population!
"The cynical view is that this was done to appease the residents of Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh et al because they allegedly have money. While this may partially true, the late state senator Norman Levy, a longtime resident of Merrick, was instumental in the grade-crossing elimination. Traffic safety along adjacent Sunrise Highway was another factor."
As a long time (former) resident of Merrick, I did not think of the place as being particularly rich, untill newer houser were build in South Merrick on what used to be swamp land, or even out into the bay itself.
Anyway, I remember when the automatic gates were installed in Merrick, and Freeport still had the hand-cranked gates. My father told me that Freeport was to be elevated soon, and so they did not bother to improve the gates.
And so it came to pass that Freeport and Baldwin were elevated, and Merrick and most points east remained on the ground. I remember as kids going down to the train tracks to put pennies on them. (We were told to stay away from the third rails, whcih naturally were also on the ground.) There was a fence between the tracks to keep commuters from cutting across the tracks.
I also rmember we had a lot of deaths at the crossings. Not cars so much as pedestrians. they would walk around the gate and wait for the eastbound to clear, and then run across.... paying no notice to the westbound. Opps.... Pity.
I remember when the elevated Merrick. Some complained that it would be like building a chinese wall through the middle of town. It was noting of the sort. There were more places to cross, and being elevated, from ground level almost disapeared as far as view and traffic were concerned.
Elias
I'm surprised that people all over the MBTA district aren't passing these laws, or are people more mellow about train horns for some reason?
The MTA is immune from all local ordinances.
Stephen is correct.
The fact that MBTA doesn't blow train horns at crossings in certain towns may be more a desire to "get along." The towns would have no way to enforce the ordnance. Since MBTA wants their cooperation on things like new stations, new routes, state budget, etc., it doesn't want to act like the 800 lb gorilla all the time.
Freight railroads which operate trains at higher than municipally-posted speed limits ignore citations and point to the FRA. The ordnances are city council members' way of making noise and "looking out for you" come reelection time. The whole thing is pretty stupid.
The first time I encountered this, it was in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl. In some areas, there are signs that state "Trains do not blow whistles between 10 PM and 6 AM" Both AMTRAK & CSX abide by this but I couldn't believe that local gov't could supercede federal regulations. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of this.
Here is a set of articles from the Federal Railroad Administration with more on whistles than we've every wanted to know!
"But any town that doesn't want the noise, just has to pass the local ordinance."
Fargo North Dakota wants to silence the horns.... but first they must upgrade the crossings, either four quadrant gates, or concrete barriers to prevent drive arounds, also eliminating (closing the street) some of the smaller crossings.
Elias
The relatively new HBLR has several street grade-crossings, including two with full signal and gate assemblies on the West End branch just west of the split. The light-rail cars do NOT sound their horns at any crossings due to well publicized complaints from the Jersey City residents along the ROW- at least the wealthy ones moving into the new housing by the waterfront.
There are signs on the two gated crossings with a message along the lines of "CAUTION: Light Rail Cars are Prohibited to Sound Horns at Crossings". Interestingly, this is in an older, semi-industrial section of town where existing housing stock is very old and the neighborhood looks considerably poorer.
"I know is that the sound must be loud enough to be heard a mile away in the least favorable weather condition"
I know that out here on the prairies of North Dakota I can hear the Locomotive horns ten miles away. (I *know* where the grade crossings are and how many need to be crossed before the train gets here). I can even hear the Locomotive prime movers growling six miles away. Naturally I am not driving in a car when I can hear these.
Elias
Believe it or not having run the Canarise line often enough when they had that crossing I can't remember a rule or general order. I do remember there was a stop sign some distance before the crosing. I hated having to make that stop since it was such a nice downgrade piece of track into East 105. Most of the guys just blew [IIRC there was a whistle board] two blasts going by...I blew the standard RR whistle signal which wasn't in any of our rule books.[NYCTA]
Federal law and railroad rules require the blowing of the horn from a whistle sign [usually 1/4 mile from the crossing] or 1/4 mile from the crossing until the first unit occupies the crossing. Likewise the headlight must be on BRIGHT and the bell must be rung. Used to be a lot of BN engineers didn't ring th bell but I'd guess they've been pushed to do so now. Some locomotives have a device that starts the bell ringing when you blow the horn. Needless to say when we were running on slow track we adjusted our whistling distance to start at a more logical place so we didn't blow and blow, but we were advised "if the FRA were around" to comply with the 1/4 mile rule to the letter. [keep my feelings on gov't people to myself]
Add that the rule only applies to PUBLIC crossings. These would be posted with the W sign in advance; Private or "farm" crossings were not posted so blowing the horn wasn't required unless there were an imminent danger. I'll qualify this by saying perhaps some localities could require horn blowing there too..or states..in the case of Montana Rail Link I've read they have the crews blowing for every crossing now.
My feelings would be for areas that outlaw horn blowing at crossings that whatever jurisdiction passed the ordinance would thereby assume responsibility for accidents. Or should have to. If a motorist and their attorney can prove an engineer/motorman didn't comply with the whistle rule the railroad, and anymore the engineer, are both liable
Believe me, there were times we got tired of hearing the damn thing ourselves, especially on units that had the horn mounted on the cab roof.[MRL thankfully moved most of them back]
I was wondering when someone would take up the E105 issue. From my first memory to the closing of the crossing, the rule was a full stop before the crossing, then two short blasts on the whistle. I always remember this because it varied from standard RR practice.
Another oddity of the E105 crossing was that it that the gates were manually operated until the end. Closing that crossing eliminated at least four jobs. It's also worth noting that the street crossing was closed (by blocking off the street) some time before the pedestrian crossing was eliminated by bridging the track. So the gatekeeper kept his job a while longer. I have no recollection of long this interim period was. Anybody know?
It's interesting how we hold railroads and highways to such different standards. Coul imagine if big rigs had to blow their horns every time they approached a street crossing, even if it had a green light? Of course, you have to consider that people are acculturated to listen for the train horn. If that were suddenly eliminated, I believe grade crossing accidents, even at protected crossings, would rise dramatically.
My feelings are that with strong enough movable barricades the whole noise making mess at rail/road crossings could be eliminated. But that's another story in itself.
Having to stop for the E 105 crossing on the Canarsie line always disturbed me and I wondered why if much heavier freight trains were so much of a sure shot for causing death why a subway train had to stop. I just thought maybe because New York City is a lawsuit paradise but then they didn't stop on Staten Island. Before we get into railroad vs.mass transit rail the difference is only in legal aspects. Staten Island /BMT was about as close as you could get to being the same creature.
Wonder if they had to stop in the days of wood cars? OTOH rail/road crossings were very common in the early days of the Brooklyn els.
An interesting operating practice in Russia is that trains blow their horns as they pass each other and also as they pass stations. This is partly due to the fact that pedestriaan access is rarely restricted, so people could be crossing the tracks anywhere. Also, you can tell what kind of train is coming by the sound of the horn: commuter trains have high pitched horns, while freight locomotives have very low pitched ones. Also, a random interesting fact is that Russia has the world's largest electric railway network.
LIRR Book of Rules - (Rule 14L - Long Long Short Long) Approaching public crossings at grade. To be prolonged until crossing is reached; Approaching locations where Roadway workers are at work on or near the tracks, bridges or other structures.; Approaching passenger stations on tracks next to platforms where trains are not scheduled to stop (except Jamaica). to be sounded until passenger ststion is reached.
That is the LIRR rule and FRA rule.
That specific pattern is required by rule at all grade crossings. On the Long Island RR and CSX it's rule 14L. On Conrail it's covered under rule 15L.
In areas where several crossings were placed close together, it was common practice for the engineers just to sound the proper signal twice or even sound a series of short blasts. This included areas like Farmingdale and Mineola where each had 4 X-ings very close together. Recently, a bulletin was issued by the LIRR mandating that the correct signal be sounded at each crossing.
Parhaps I'm out of the loop (certainly when compared to most participants in this conference) but when did the MTA actually make an order for the new R143 cars on the IND/BMT line? I looked on the IND/BMT rolling stock page here, and saw pictures of R143s on order and after delivery: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r143.html I'm just suprised this wasn't in the news, after all the ink the R142s recieved, though maybe it was just in case the R143s also have to go through a 2 year gestation period before they can reliably be brought to a stop. If anyone knows how many of these new cars are on order and which trains they are replacing (R32s, I assume) please share the wealth.
-Brian
Not the R32s. They will replace (IIRC) the R38, R40/R40M, and R42.
>>Not the R32s. They will replace (IIRC) the R38, R40/R40M, and R42.
Not exactly. The B-division is currently experiencing a car shortage. The R-143s are additions to the fleet, not replacements. In another two or three years, the R-160 order will replace the R-38 through R-44 car classes. The R-32s will go out for another GOH around then, and remain in service for another 75,000 years.
Dan
The 212 R-143s will replace nothing. They were ordered about two years ago (I know I have the date around here somewhere...{g}).
The R-160s (the follow-on order of 660 cars, for which proposals are being evaluated now, which means it might be something other than 660 cars when the dust settles) will (and this is now official, though subject to change) replace equipment in this hierarchy: slant R-40, Coney Island-overhauled R-42, R-38.
David
Purchase of the first 100 cars was approved by the MTA Board in December 1998; an option for 112 cars went through a month later.
David
The R-143 is a delayed replacement for the R-30. The MTA tossed them a tad too early, and as a result the MTA can no longer walk (V train) and chew gum (G train) at the same time.
Oops has been brought to you by erasers. Don't make a mistake without one.
I've seen the R110Bs in service about 6 months ago and haven't seen them since. The R110As haven't been in service in about 4 years. What's up with that????? If the MTA runs the 110Bs again, will they go back to the A or stay on the C???? And if the 110As run again, which line will they go to since the 142s are on the 2 line now?????
how many r110A cars are there in all? 40?
Ten - one trainset.
>>If the MTA runs the 110Bs again, will they go back to the A or stay on the C????<<
Reportedly, to the A
>>And if the 110As run again, which line will they go to since the 142s are on the 2 line now?????<<
I don't think they will run again.
How fast do the PCCs go on the Mattapan high speed line? Its only about two miles long.
They go at trolley speed, i.e. they don't craw along because there are many open stretches. The cars have also been recently overhauled. So, they do about as well as the LRVs on the Green Line. They are not quite as fast as the Newark City Subway PCCs, but its a pleasent ride just the same.
Mr t__:^)
". So, they do about as well as the LRVs on the Green Line. "
No, They don't the LRVs on the green line get up to 40mph the highest speed I've seen on mattapan is 26.
". So, they do about as well as the LRVs on the Green Line. "
No, They don't the LRVs on the green line get up to 40mph the highest speed I've seen on mattapan is 26.
I seem to recall a top speed of 31 MPH on my last trip to Boston. There are 30 mph speed limit signs posted, that would be pretty hard to exceed by more than a few MPH if even the operators wanted to.
It is high speed compared to a bus route though since it has the Private Right of way.
As for the Green Line, where do the cars get up to 40? I took a ride out to Riverside and back on the Type 7s and was speedometer watching. The fastest reading I saw was 35 or 37 as I remember.
I remember hazily that the riverside line used to be faster, like over 50mph...
Current generation cars (Type 7s and Boeings) will reach about 45 mph on the Riverside branch. I've seen them do up to 40 in the subway, but that's over the speed limit (usually 25-35).
I lived in Allston from '88 to '99, and I thought that before that rash of accidents around 90-91, the Boeings would get up to almost 50.
They slowed the whole system down, as I remember, after their safety practices were revieweb by a federal committee of some kind.
I remember that cars approaching a Y/Y signal used to enter the station without stopping (or even slowing it seemed), and the red automatics used to be permissive.
That rear-ender at Copley slowed the whole system down.
Correct me on the details.....
Dave
You got it Dave! Timers in many spots, and now yellow-over-yellow is shown at stations where cars are berthed. A full stop is required before pulling in behind another car or train.
The book Subways of the World is in stock again at the Trolley Museum of New York Store. The secure shopping cart (the feature that keeps track of your orders and accepts your credit card) is also working again.
We apologize to those who tried to order from our web store over the past several weeks. The web store is now fully functional again.
The neighborhood maps are, overall, remarkably accurate. That's why I was somewhat surprised, while standing in the 81st Street station on the B/C yesterday, to find that the map claimed I was at the 79th Street station.
I like those neighborhood maps, but keeping them up to date could become very expensive for the taxpayer or rider. Neighborhood maps were discussed at a recent meeting of the New York City Transit Riders Council. Apparently, the MTA rather than the TA introduced them and the framed information centers in which some of them hang. (I could be wrong about anything in this message, as I may have misunderstood the discussion.) Many of the Manhattan maps exist in digital storage. The others are what you see, and any update will have to be done the hard way. As bus stops, bus routes, schools, churches, movie theatres, and stores on those maps change their names or locations often, I see an enormous cost in any attempt to maintain accuracy. Maybe the 79th Street map was installed at 81st Street because it covered the same territory!
I meant that the 81st Station on the B/C was given the wrong name.
If those maps were widely sold for $2 apiece, they might come close to covering their costs.
I just heard that a car from the #7 line will be on display this summer at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival. No doubt that car will be one a R-33WF.
Wayne
Where on the Mall is this festival? I have heard of it but never bothered going.
On the big mall between 7thst. and 14th. st. ya cant'nt miss it, the biggest show in town.
"On the big mall between 7thst. and 14th. st. ya cant'nt miss it, the biggest show in town."
What date does this take place ?
Bill "Newkirk"
June 27 - July 1, and July 4 - 8 at the National Mall.
--Mark
Now which Flushing car will go to DC ?
I suggest #9306 currently on display at the Transit Museum.
WHY ?
It's in original paint, NO RUST, windows aren't scratched. Imagine this car on display in the blazing sunlight ! That's if it will be on display outdoors. A Flushing car that has 13 years of service is better than one with 38 years of service on it.
Anyone agree or disagree with me ?
Bil "Newkirk"
Good idea, Bill, but, next to impossible to get the car out. Look at the way the car is "buried" at the transit museum (that's how they got it in the 1st place)
Peace,
ANDEE
I knew it was on the mall. I just never had a reason to go in the past...
Thanks.
http://www.si.edu/festival/nyc.htm
For us sub-fans that were raised in New York, the R-33 will be a sight to see.
Hey Smithsonian! Wana add a R-33 to the collection. Here's your chance.
BTW, the link to the fest is above. Leave the stockbroker in NY and bring more food, like an egg cream.
Southern Division BMT
Phil Hom
Yeah - I was sort of thinking the same thing. As much as I like WMATA's MetroRail I sorely miss the NYCTA's subway - although I definitely don't miss this new not-so-Rapid Transit of NYCTA subway trains
Wayne
Be fun to plop it down on the Metro and run it. Wonder if it would fit ?
No it Won't. The WMATA's tunnels are too small.
Our cars are 75' x 10'. An IRT car is 51' x 8'10". How does that make our tunnels too small?
I was wondering about that.
The car we are getting was most recently on the 5 line. Once the festival is over, it sounds like this car is being retired.
The car size can be more easily expressed by using the British term "Loading Gauge" to indicate overall size. WMATA has the tightest loading gauge of any US subway system. An IRT car is just too big to fit.
When Metro was being built, the diesels used by the contractors had to have their cabs cut down so severely that the engineer was forced to sit on the cab floor to run the locomotive. WMATA's work diesels are similarly smaller than a standard railroad diesel.
If you put a Metro car and an IRT car end-to-end you will discover that the IRT car is over almost a foot taller than the Metro car.
The important thing is that the redbird car won't be in New York. It's a good start.
:-) Andrew
Well yesterday's trip was an amazing sucess. Here's what went down:
I arrived at the Hamelton NJ station to catch the 8:21 NJT train to Newark. I would rate the Hamelton NJ station as one of the best commuter RR stations in the country. 1/2 mile from a major freeway, bus hub, lots of parking, the parking lot is at the same level as the platform, wonderful landscaping, the whole complex is a sculpture garden, about 8 TVM's, enclosed waiting area w/ bathrooms, a warning system for approaching hi-speed trains on the local tracks and a glass enclosed crossover that gived you an amazing view of the NEC.
I saw about 3 Amtrak trains (from trackside and the crossover) while I was waiting and I also found three pennies. Well I usually use pennies I find as little frizbes so I began to wing them accross the tracks. Well on my second shot the penny flew up and hit the overhead catenary with a clang! I had a feeling I would be in for some really good luck that day.
I got to Newark no problem and changed to a WTC bount PATH train planing to meet Pigs at the WTC E station. Well I got to the WTC E station and pigs wasn't there so I gave him a call on his cell and he was still on the Q headed to Manhattan. We then changed our meeting to the lower level of the 4th Ave station. We met ok and crossed over to catch a S/B Q back to coney island. While waiting O found the platform level interlocking tower w/ the windows I could look in and we spend about 10 minutes observing the action. WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TELL ME ABOUT THAT!
We took the Q/D to Stillwell (changing at the Heyapul station) where we consumed some Nathan's Hotdogs. We then caught a N/B N (SLANT 40!) to Atlantic where we took the Panama Canal to check out the LIRR Flatbush Terminal and BROOK tower. After a bathroom break we caught a 2 all the way up to E180th.
While on the two this little kid came up to the RFW. His mom noticed my folder of NYCS track maps and asked where I got them pointing out that her son LOVED the subways and had made her wait to catch a train "with the window in front" (the kid was about 6 and could barely see out the window). I then informed her about nycsubway.org and she said that they would most definitly check it out. I'll bet that kid's ruined for life :)
Ok, we got to E180 and waited for a 5 to go to Dyre. We rode a 5 out and back and then got off again at E180 to wait for an R142. However none came so we got on a really ghetto looking 5 train Redbiod with mucho rust and peeling paint. We rode that to GCT where we saw a 6 Redbird (also very rare) and tranfsered downstairs and managed to catch an Express 7. It was pretty jammed and we had to fight our way to the front, but it cleared out and the rest of the ride was wholy enjoyable. From Flushing we took the Q44 bus to Jamacia, eat at McDonnalds and went out onto the LIRR platform where I took some pics.
Jamacia at rush hour is simply amazing! At one time I saw 8 train all moving through HALL interlocking. I got pics of MU's, DE's, DM's and HALL and JAY. From there we hopped a J to E. NY Jct. and then caught an A to Rockaway Park.
Now remember, the goal of this trip is to get to JFK by 7 PM meet my friend and then catch the 9:10 NJT train at Penn Station, but the Rockaway park bit made us a little late and after catching the shuttle bus we got to terminal 8 at 7:26. Well my friend had just clearned customs w/ 2 80 pound suitcases and by the time we caught the next shuttle bus and got back to Howard beach it was 8:12. There was no way I thought I would catch that train at Penn and to make matters worse we cauht an R44 at HB. Anyway, pigs leaves the story at Utica Ave and my friend and I continue on to Penn Station. Well we get down to the NJT level and we see that it's 9:04 and our planned train is boarding! Well we did some scrambling and we made it! We took the NJT to Trenton where I left my UK friend to catch the Twilight Shoreliner to Boston due in at 12:03. I proceeded onto Philly via SEPTA taking one of the 80 pound suitcases as I will meet up w/ my fiend again after he finds an appartment in Boston. I had to roll the suitcase 2 blocks down market St. to the 8th and Market PATCO station making ample use of the handicapped facilities. A train came in about 5 minutes and even though I lost my ticket and had to jump the exit turnstyle I would still say it was a good trip. I got home at 12:16 having left some 17 hours before.
Why'd you make your poor friend go to Boston from NYC via Trenton? Seems unusally cruel.
My friend is British trainspotter and fellow SubTalker Lexcie. He didn't want to spend 3 hours waiting in Penn Station. He decided on going w/ me to Trenton in order to A) talk w/ me, B) ride NJT (Comet V, real nice) and C) kill time. Also I think that Trenton is a nicer place to hang than Penn Station. He is currently writing some papers about commuter rail and vertical integration and is going to get a graduate degree in Transportation at MIT.
You know, it never occurred to me that the Trenton station is nicer than Penn, but now that I think about it...
Cool. I work at MIT full-time... and we have a great transportation program. I look forward to meeting Lexcie.
Glad you got to see LIRR - Jamaica at rush hour. It's an incredibly complex operation, and becomes more so the more you understand about the railroad. At one time, I believe it had more trains per day than any other station in the U.S., although Penn Station (NYC) may now be bigger with the growth in NJT and Amtrak Empire Service.
CG
yesterday i had to go New York City Technical college to take a test. I rode with my friend on the 1009 F from 179 to Coney island, 5904. Then I got on the D 2518 goin uptown and the Bx. Anyway then I got on the Franklin shuttle S 2918 to Franklin. From there took 3553 R32 C to Jay street. Then After the test at the College, I took the Tailcar of a Lefferts bound A 5287 to Bway ENY and got on 4519 a R40M on the J. What I liked best was the R44's on the A. After all, they are supposed to disappear when the R160 comes.
E to JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU IN THE STUDIO.
NOW FOR ME ITS OFF TO MY HIGH SCHOOL PROM. WISH ME LUCK
yesterday i had to go New York City Technical college to take a test. I rode with my friend on the 1009 F from 179 to Coney island, 5904. Then I got on the D 2518 goin uptown and the Bx. Anyway then I got on the Franklin shuttle S 2918 to Franklin. From there took 3553 R32 C to Jay street. Then After the test at the College, I took the Tailcar of a Lefferts bound A 5287 to Bway ENY and got on 4519 a R40M on the J. What I liked best was the R44's on the A. After all, they are supposed to disappear when the R160 comes.
E to JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU IN THE STUDIO.
NOW FOR ME ITS OFF TO MY HIGH SCHOOL PROM. WISH ME LUCK
Enjoy your prom! Boy that was many years ago for me. It's nice to see how many young railfans there are around your age. It's a passsion I developed at a very young age, say around 9 or 10 years old. It started with busses , then trolleys and subways. Keep up your posts to Sub-Talk, they are really good!
Chuck Greene
The R-160 is supposed to replace the R-44 only according to SubTalkers and whomever they're hearing it from "on the road." Remember: Train Operators, Conductors, Tower Operators, etc. don't decide what stays and what goes. Those decisions are made by MANAGEMENT in the Department of Subways and the Department of Capital Program Management in conjunction with senior NYCT management and the MTA.
David
Train Dude (who is not A T/O, CR or Tower operator, etc.) has confirmed that the R-160A option has been exercized. These cars are supposedly replacing the R-44. However, I'm a little skeptical for a few reasons:
1. The R-160 contract only replaces 607 of the R-32GE, R-38, R-40/40S, and R-42. Thus, you are left with a few cars from these classes. Why would they replace the whole R-44 fleet when some R-42's might still be operating?
2. At no point has there been any official mention that the R-44 would be replaced. There has been mention of the R-160A, but not of R-44 replacement.
It is quite possible that there are some rebuilt R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's that are in better shape than the R-44's. After all, the R-142's on the IRT are replacing Redbirds in order of worst condition, not according to the actual contract class.
Everyone has seen instances where two people have identical automobiles, or televisions, or toasters, and one outlives the other by a long stretch of time. This principle probably applies to subway rolling stock as well.
As for the R-44---it is generally acknowledged that they are among the most trouble-prone, poorly built subway cars in the MTA roster. Although I'm not privy to ANY information (I'm merely speculating) I wouldn't be surprised if a decision was made to scrap the R-44's before their older cousins.
>>It is quite possible that there are some rebuilt R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's that are in better shape than the R-44's.<<
Maybe a few. But there certainly aren't any better than the whole R-44 fleet.
>>Everyone has seen instances where two people have identical automobiles, or televisions, or toasters, and one outlives the other by a long stretch of time. This principle probably applies to subway rolling stock as well.<<
That's a bit different though. That deals with the following variables:
1. Built defective
2. How was the said object maintained? Regularly? Poorly?
3. How often were the said objects in use?
For instance, If I have a car, and you have the exact same car, all these play in. You car might have defective brakes and you might just decide to sell it. Or, you might run your car 100,000 miles in 10 months, while I run mine 50,000. You might Change your oil more often.
Now then:
1. If a car is defective, it is usually repaired.
2. The TA's maintenence program really limits this catagorie.
3. This might be the the catagorie with the most weight.
So then, you can't compare rolling stock to things like automobiles.
>>As for the R-44---it is generally acknowledged that they are among the most trouble-prone, poorly built subway cars in the MTA roster.<<
Who generally acknowledges this? Personally, I think the R-40S cars are real crap. I've never seen a worse door packet. Literally, What other car type has doors that randomly refuse to close? The R-44 had problems, but now they are operating just fine. And, they do not seem to be in bad condition, they are certainly in better condition than the R-40's.
>>Although I'm not privy to ANY information (I'm merely speculating) I wouldn't be surprised if a decision was made to scrap the R-44's before their older cousins.<<
I'd be surprised. They're quieter than the R-38's and are still in better condition than the R-40 series. How anyone here can say that they are doing worse than the 40's is beyond me.
"Who generally acknowledges this? Personally, I think the R-40S cars are real crap. I've never seen a worse door packet. Literally, What other car type has doors that randomly refuse to close? The R-44 had problems, but now they are operating just fine. And, they do not seem to be in bad condition, they are certainly in better condition than the R-40's."
If you go by the doors, the 32s and 46s would go first
The 44s have more stress on their frame due to there weight, the 40's frames most likely are in better shape(just guessing)
I would not be surprized if they went either way
M-1s are the best
I know who Train Dude is, and yes, he is in a position to know such things. I don't, however, recall him saying such things. Perhaps he will see this thread and respond.
Incidentally, it's rather difficult to exercise an option that may or may not exist to a contract that has not yet been signed.
David
>>Incidentally, it's rather difficult to exercise an option that may or may not exist to a contract that has not yet been signed.<<
What are you talking about: "may not exist?!?" it has already been confirmed!
Second, Maybe T Dude will see the thread. Either way, He did post on this awhile ago.
By whom has this alleged option been confirmed? If it's by Train Dude, then, again, I don't recall him saying that. I hope he'll respond.
My source was present at a NYCT internal meeting last Thursday at which the R-160 procurement was discussed. No mention of an option was made, and the replacement program was outlined exactly as I outlined it a few postings ago: slant R-40 (approximately 296 cars), followed by Coney Island-overhauled R-42 (110 cars), followed by R-38 (196 cars). Again, this is all subject to change, but as of less than a week ago, this was OFFICIAL.
David
I had originally heard that the R-160 purchase would include 660 original and 330 option cars. As you correctly point out, the option could not have been exercised as yet since the contract has not been signed. As of 6/6/01, Senior managers in the division of Car Equipment were meeting to discuss the specifications for the cars as they will be presented in the contract. No bids have been solicited as yet and none have been received.
As for which cars will be scrapped first - it's all speculation. Considering the corrosion on the R-44s and the roofs on the R-38s - those fleets would be the first to go IF it were my decision.
Thanks for the update.
The solicitation was being advertised a few weeks ago on the MTA website. Perhaps the Division of Car Equipment withdrew the package for some reason, although I understand that NYCT would like to get these cars under contract at the earliest opportunity.
David
Again, I was told that there was a meeting about R-160 Specifications, yesterday, at Tiffany shop. Prospective bidders may have been in attendance.
I checked into this matter further.
Apparently, the "solicitation" I saw on the MTA website was more along the lines of a Request for Expressions of Interest, rather than a Request for Proposals. They're not quite the same. Train Dude is correct; proposals have not yet been solicited for this contract.
David
I couldn't think of the term but that's exactly what I had heard. Those who had expressed an'interest' were reportedly at he meeting I heard about.
>>Considering the corrosion on the R-44s and the roofs on the R-38s - those fleets would be the first to go IF it were my decision.<<
What corrosion? I've never seen any, but I only see the carbodies.
I'd make the Coney Island R-42 rebuilds go (they really suck) and the R-40's and R-38's.
Odd that the 2 car classes you mentioned are BOTH Consigned to the A line.
The corrosion IS on the carbody of the R-44s. Look at the belly-band area usually near the bonnets and especially under the cab window.
Looks like the subway car of the future was a bust after all. There's no way you can compare a subway car built 30 years ago to a car that hasnt even been designed yet! This is silly.
I too have heard the rumor about the R-44s retirement on SubTalk. I'm sure it is possible that the T/A is considering replacing those cars sometime in the future but I'm sure they haven't made a definite decision as of the present time.
BMTJeff
Forgive my typos, but I'm operating on 2 hours of sleep and too much road coffee.
At 4:15am this morning, former Minneapolis/Shaker Hts./Buffalo PCC #70 arrived on the Beard St. pier in Brooklyn. At daybreak, she was unloaded onto the track leading to the car shops. The car is one of 12 purchased by the Brooklyn Historic Railway for continued service from Red Hook towards downtown and the Brooklyn Bridge Park complex.
For the number hungry, car #70 was built in 1947 by St. Louis Car Co. originally TCRT 359 until 1953. Converted to MU at the TCRT shops and renumbered 70. She and 19 sisters provided service on the Shaker rapid lines until 1985. She and 11 others (non-MU 51-55, MU 60,61,62,67,68,and 69) were sold to the Niagra Frontier Transit Authority in 1990. The BHRA purchased them earlier this year. These 12 are sisters to the fleet still operating until August in Newark.
I'm going to bed now.
Amtrak Wants to Mortgage Penn Station
What happens when Amtrak defaults? Are you listening, Donald Trump?
Next: Looking for Loan Sharks on 7th Avenue.
It is long past time for the US to make the choice. Are we a civilized, modern nation with an adequate infrastructure or are we some lame dump where you either drive(wabenzi) or walk? Amtrak has been treated as an annoyance and deliberately m,alnourished for thirty years. While I could also rant at length about imperfections in Atk service (notably on a recent trip to Portland Spkane and Eugene) I for one want my tax money spent for a real world class passenger train system. For the mere cost of several useless 'B-2's' we could turn Atk into a decent FUNCTIONAL system. For several billions more we could move toward the ultimate goal. Pretending that Americans don't deserve train service isunrealistic, and further pretending that passenger trains can be profitable flies in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary worldwide.
I'm declaring a mini field trip, place your reservations. I did, if any of you wanna meet up with me, I'll either be wearing a dark blue shirt with a road sign as a DJ with turntables or a grayish shirt with grafitti on it. Email me if you wanna organize something...
According to http://www.bitnik.com/RMLI/hot.htm,
"coach, number 2966, has been slated for preservation by the New York Transit Museum."
Can anyone confirm its whereabouts ?
I'm planning to make a day trip up to visit the Transit Museum once and for all. What should I definitely see???? What should I avoid???
Any suggestions???
You should see everything, because the museum isn't all that big. There'll be plenty of time to walk through all the old cars and the exhibits.
Dan
I second the suggestion ...
- You make a left at the Token Booth, where you buy your ticket.
- Walk down the exhibit hallway
- on main floor are models of trolleys, old maps, a video room, buses for the kids to sit in, turnstiles from various periods, etc.
- on the track level there are lots of cars to walk thru, a tower & other items on display on the platform.
- the gift shop has some interesting items too
Enjoy, Mr t__:^)
Don't forget to stop by the gift shop and get some postcards. There are very cool views of NY which you don't get on the typical tourist post cards - like R-62's on the Queens Blvd viaduct set against the Queensborough Bridge, or a shot of the great white fleet rolling down the viaduct from years ago, or station artwork.
If you're talking about the shot of the # 7 with the city skyline in the background, its a favorite of mine. I bought it up at Shoreline in CT. I think the shot was taken from the roof of an Apartment House on 39th Place and Queens Blvd. I grew up on the other side of the "el" and 4 blocks east.
It brought back memories for me. I was able to also pick-out the old Breyer's Ice Cream Factory and the Swingline Staple Factory.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
June 10, 2001
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Three things:
1)At around 8:00 this evening, a diesel train was pulling R142 cars #6586-6590 at Grand Central on the local track. A half hour later, at Third Avenue/149th Street, I saw it again pulling through, this time with the bells ringing. I wonder what happened to #6501-6570?
2)The R142 train with car #s 6321-6325 and 6346-6350 is back in service.
3) #6571-6580 passed by on the downtown track at 3 Av/149th St., making simulated stops at around 8:30pm. It came directly behind 6321-25 and 6346-50. Then, after that, an R26/28/29 #5 train, followed by another R142. I forgot the numbers.
That's all for now. Until next time...
CWalNYC
R142_6301-6310
Hey, you stole my thunder (just kidding)! But seriously, I too saw 6586-90 from my apartment window, and the sky hadn't gotten completely dark yet. The train was passing through Track M, Jackson Av at 9PM.
6576-6585 were out making simulated stops tonight. I wonder if they're in next for revenue service?
As for your question to what happened with 6501-6570, I'm uncertain about this other than to say that the higher numbered cars were ready to be shipped from the factory, while the lower of the fleet is still being prepared at this time.
-Stef
One idear of to why the higher nomber are coming in first, is that they can't got to the lower numbers in the back of the lot they were sitting as the TA tryed to fixthe bugs out of them. They built all the car and stocked them to close to get the older one out.
This is just an Idear of what might be cousing the higher # to come in before the lower #.
Robert
Hey, does any body have the original plans for the service changes involing said new routes? I've heard on this board several diferent stories about what the new routes would be. Can some one clear this up fpr me ,please. thank you.
Eric B. posted it yesterday.
David
Thank you for the response,people,but perhaps i didnt make my post completely understood.What I was refering to was the the original plans for the new routes from the 1960's,not current wise. Thank you for all the input.
I understood the question. Eric B. posted the 1960s proposals last week.
David
New Routes-as far as i know:
D-205th Street Norwood to 34th St-6th Avenue
B-Bedford Park Blvd, bronx or 145th St to 34th St-6th Av
Q-EXPRESS-Brighton Beach to 57th St-7th Ave
Q-LOCAL-Coney Island to 57th St-7th Avenue
W-Ditmars Blvd-Astoria to Coney Island-West End
So if you add the N as an express, and the R as a local, you essentially have the Broadway line in pre-Chrystie condition. The more things change.....
Just change the W to the T, and you do have pre-Chrystie Broadway BMT service.
And you'd have to have the Brighton local operate thru the tunnel, unlike the upcoming service plan.
Eastbound local track, presumably for the R. If they futz with the express track there'll be hell to pay (I already see a GT 25 sign up...).
MTA, slowing your way.
Why not just lower the speed limit to 5 mph?
Thoses idiots dont want to upgrade the signal system. They think that slowing down trains is the answer to everthing.
Well, it's the answer to safety concerns. Look, the slower trains move, the more time the T/O has to react to conditions ahead. If trains are moving with zero velocity, response time is infinite for all stationary objects.
I'm very afraid that we're going to get here--soon.
Dan
Slowing down is the answer to everything. At this rate, trains will never move and response times for T/Os will be infinite.
The only thing the MTA can do quickly is slowing things down.
Dan
Leisurely transit is here to stay, it will never die, etc.
Oooohhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooo.
Maybe the TA will redesign the uniforms ... LEISURE SUITS! :)
Oh noo! Those dreaded wheel detectors spread their misery. :-(
I did not know that one was a the CityHall Loop for the 6 line. I rode the 6 around the loop yesterday. It starts when the train enter the station.
Robert
Which reminds me. I was able to ride the loop on Memorial Day. The T/O initially told me to leave the train; I responded that I wanted to remain on, and that the loop track was returned to Main Line status per Bulletin (as reported here on SubTalk by one of our NYCT friends). He said, "Hmph! They change things every week around here. Sure, stay on."
The police booth is abandoned. Maybe Rudy's problems in the Mansion have him less focused on City Hall?
What the Bulletin Number I will look it up one day and see what it said.
Robert
thats too hard. Just go to last car and stay on despite announcements, get on at las car while the people are leaving
It's mainline track again? Yahoo! I'll ride it next week. Thanks for the tip!
Dan
What exactly are wheel detectors? I gather they are some method of device to slow down trains, could someone explain to me what they are and how they work?
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
There is a thread going around about Wheel Detectors!
They "detect" how long it takes for each axle to cross a given point, and determine the speed from that. The light flashes when there is no train in the detection area or if the train is moving too fast. The brake tripper goes up whenever the light is flashing regardless of wether the train is over it or not, thus if the train accelerates faster than the prescribed speed it can still be tripped even after the first car passes it.
Hate to tell you this, but the dreaded Wheel Detectors are built into the new signals that were installed in Queens Plaza station recently. Take a close look at them - even though they are covered in burlap, you can see evidence of the presence of the wheel detectors built right in. Express and local tracks have them. We owe this all to Mr. Ray, who is now a guest of the NY State Dept. of Corrections, for his causation of the accidnet at Union Square - 14th Street on the Lex. Also, a dishonorable mention to Mr. Ricky Gates, who really brought things to a real bang when he caused the accident on the Northeast Corridor line, killing the head end crew of an Amtrak Metroliner in Maryland. With notables like those guys, we should be thankful that they are few in number.
I'm surprised nothing like this was done after the Malbone St. wreck. Different era, different approach, I suppose.
Different situation - Luciano wasn't a motorman; BRT management put him behind the handles without proper training and (arguably, of course) held the primary responsibility for the incident. The "punishment" was the restructuring of the company. In the case of Union Square, Ray's blood-alcohol content alone was at fault.
Not to re-open an old thread or anything, but there were a lot
of factors in Union Square. The intoxicated motorman was the
big one, but there were secondary causes as well. Ironically,
the thing that WDs do best, which is to provide a continuous speed
control throughout the turnout, wasn't a factor in Union Sq.
Hate to tell you this, but the dreaded Wheel Detectors are built into the new signals that were installed in Queens Plaza station recently. Take a close look at them - even though they are covered in burlap, you can see evidence of the presence of the wheel detectors built right in. Express and local tracks have them. We owe this all to Mr. Ray, who is now a guest of the NY State Dept. of Corrections, for his causation of the accident at Union Square - 14th Street on the Lex. Also, a dishonorable mention to Mr. Ricky Gates, who really brought things to a real bang when he caused the accident on the Northeast Corridor line, killing the head end crew of an Amtrak Metroliner in Maryland. With notables like those guys, we should be thankful that they are few in number.
Are you sure those aren't the Ss or lunar whites for timers, or the call on? I hope you're wrong, or else I will definitely be taking the F into Manhattan from then on to avoid the whole Queens Plaza area. No WDs through 63rd!
Nope, they are not call on signals, because the signals are located about midstation. One is mounted horizontally from the ceiling at the express platform, and the ones on the local tracks are the usual trackside types. They are not the time control types either. Go and see for yourself, because they are there, albeit still wrapped in the burlap.
Hi
Does anybody know yret what happened on the 6th Ave/34th St station yesterday?
Thanks.
SeaBeach53
Police Invertigation.
Thanks..police investigation...people are just so bad these days..I was unfortunately on the downtown 4 today and it waitied for 15+ mins in limbo because of a police invesitgation..I wasn't too pleased, it was packed and noisy...next time, I'm walking to Times Sq for the beloved N...
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
Well I finally meet up with a guy with real class, a Sea Beach man. I like your handle and can use your help when I take on all those Brighton yo yo's I have to deal with daily.
In the future, it would be helpful to add an approximate time of the incident. All I can see is signal trouble around 7:30 PM
I'm very, very happy that the MTA is getting rid of its older, crappier car classes.
I had a half day of school today so I went down to the Mid-Manhattan library to do some research for Social Studies class. When I finished I walked to 42nd/6th and boarded a Q, forgetting they were terminating at 57th. As I walked to the front of the train, I noticed something: The majority of the cars were sweltering, hotter then outside the train.
Earlier that day, my redbird 6 was just as bad and several times more crowded. I shudder to think of an entire summer like this.
Dan
Try riding LI BUS. They don't believe in air conditioning at all. :-0
Really? I rode R-40 4296 on the Q yesterday and found it to be a meat locker.
Silly me...
David
Not all the cars are bad, but there are several cars (more then 50% of the two trainsets I was on) which had no functioning A/C whatsoever. Your meat locker was quite nicely contrasted by my toaster oven.
Dan
What is meant by "no functioning AC?" Were the blowers blowing hot air, or was the system off completely? If the system was off completely in more than one car, then the odds are that the HVAC (Heating/Ventilation/Air Conditioning) trainline was switched "off." That is a RULE VIOLATION, not an equipment failure.
By the way, I rode 4218 on the Q on my way home tonight. It was nicely cool in there.
David
The air conditioning in many cars, particularly the Redbirds, is much worse this summer than I remember from past summers. I have a feeling the HVAC on the Redbirds is simply not being maintained anymore, and if any other car class were to receive similar treatment, they, too, would be hot.
Now, has anyone been reprimanded by the C/R for opening the windows in a car where the a/c is clearly not functioning? That happened to me a few weeks ago. (Well, the vertical poles were cold, so something was working. I think the fans were simply not blowing.) I was told that I had to move to the next car (and give up my seat) if I wanted any sort of ventilation at all. Instead, I hopped across the platform at Grand Central onto the express, completely forgetting that locals were running express that weekend (but the 4 pulled out before the 6 anyway, and, more to the point, it was nice and cold).
I was on a downtown R142A, 7341-7350, and from what I saw, many of the windows had received "scratchitti" treatment. When do people do this? I guess this will be a good test to see how fast the TA responds to this and replaces the film around the windows. It has begun. Also of note, the train made a brake squealing sound as the train left each station and this is not normal. Anyone ride this train and experience the same thing?
Nappy
All Brakes squeal when the train leave. All it meens is that the air was not all the way out of the system. But what i felt yesterday of the T/O not knowing how to stop the train. Every time she came to a complet stop, at about 2MPH the train would juck to the stop. I got off a Brooklyn Brige Station and went into the tower to use the bathroom and I ask a TSS if that was normal. He sad that she was using to much brake, that the trains now uses the motors more at lower speed, then the air brakes come on at about 3MPH the stop the train the rest of that way. He sayed that it will take sometime for some T/O to get use to this, that sometime the train dose not fell like it is slowing down and they take more brake to over come it.
One more thing the light did flicker going into some stops. The cars were 7221-7230.
Robert
The vandals don't seem to waste any time to deface the windows on brand new subway cars. Did it over occur to them that most poeple would like to ride on scratchitti free subway cars for at least a little while before someone makes a mess of them. I guess not. I would like to see a scratchitti free subway car for a change.
BMTJeff
Yesterday while I was on the R142 going to Brooklyn Brige Station the were afrew youths spitting on the floor. Every one way looking right at them as they did is, they just keep on talking and rapping load while everyone got mad at them. This I feel is even worse scratching up the windows. I sweer if these kid knew there school work as well as they music, we would have the best nation in the world.
Robert
I don't know why NYCT bothers introducing new cars, given the amount of vandalism. Just keep rebuilding the old ones and save the money.
the old ones can take so much use and they are falling apart inside as well as outside. it would too expensive to rebuild because they are so out dated. so the most logical thing to do is buy new ones. its almost like buying a car for yourself. you had a car for years but, since it is aging, it starts to fall apart and begins to be too expensive to fix. so you buy a new one and save money.
You can't rebuild cars indefinitely. Sooner or later they will need to be replaced with new ones because the old one will simply start to fall apart from extended usage that rebuilding can't take care of.
BMTJeff
I would have to say that spitting on the floor of a subway car is disrespectful. Scratching the windows of a subway car is worse in my own opinion because you are damaging public property.
BMTJeff
These vandals live in filth and are very miserable people.
If they don't have any regards for where or how they live, how can they have any regards for others?
Does anyone know how much the asses get fined when caught 'scratchetting'? Whatever it is, it should be tripled. Imagine the money the city might rake in! hehe! (well... from their parents, that is...).
Also, what ever happened to the buzz about video cameras being installed on the subways?
Is it just me, or has enforcement of all things underground began to lax in the last 6 or so months? I've also noticed a few trains at night with many a homeless person sleeping on the seats.
...and if enforcement is indeed getting laxed, why? it's not like we've got less cops, or a huge increase in crime. or am I just completely missing something?
I say "Whip it and whip it good". :-0
"Quoted words courtesy of Devo, an 80s band"
"Token Clerks Face the Ax" is the headline of a Daily News story that states: "The TA's annual budget calls for reducing subway station staffing by 235 positions through attrition." The article was published on the occaision of the TWU staging a protest yesterday against the TA's decision to eliminate token booth clerk positions.
TA had this planned when they negotiated the last contract when "general maintenance" of the turnstiles was part of the Station Agents job. When this happens they will be subject to the same criminal element that preys on the passengers. Without the protection of the booth and access to the "panic button" muggings and fare beating will be at an all-time high. At least now if the Agent says "pay your fare" through the mike an officer on the platform can respond, let's see how many say something when they have no protection. Plus it will also eliminate the need for the collector trains (5 to 6 T/O jobs, most of the collecting personnel and accompanying supervision). I am sure there are other negative aspects to this but what does TA care as long as the bottom line shows a profit.
Thank you for your support. Just imagine-- a young female customer with a carriage is attacked in an unmanned area of the station. I can see it now-- see is collapsing onto the floor and calls 9-1-1 from a pay phone that may not work, meanwhile the miscreant attacks the kid. We need at least one full-time manned booth at every station.
I do agree that **some** part-time booths might be closable but we do need a full-time manned presence at each station.
Taking away our money does sound good- sure we could still check your card and possibly trade them in. The booth is more than sales-- we have high-tech alarm systems which also help us monitor escaaltors and elevators.
I support a compromise suggestion: have two agents per station that now has a part-time booth open for at least 16 hours: one roams the station with a two way radio and the other stays in the booth. They would switch up at an assigned time. Overnight or high-crime areas would continue to have only one agent and they stay in the booth. For stations with a part-time booth open just for AM. PM or both rush hours only they would have only one agent in the full-time booth.
One issue that is yet to be settled is our safety-- our panic button covers us near the booth but what is we are roaming the station-- do they give us a two way radio? How much will the extra radios cost-factor in batteries, maintenance, monitoring, etc.
Thank you for your support. Just imagine-- a young female customer with a carriage is attacked in an unmanned area of the station. I can see it now-- see is collapsing onto the floor and calls 9-1-1 from a pay phone that may not work, meanwhile the miscreant attacks the kid. We need at least one full-time manned booth at every station.
What about PATH?
PATH is a whole different kettle of fish. They have personnel monitoring the station via CCTV 24 hours a day with smaller, and for the most part straight platforms. And they only have to watch 13 stops. When something happens, the police are dispatched immediately. The TA has no plans to implement this at this time.
Also, the PATH does not go into certain desolate high crime areas like the subway does. Sure it serves Newark Penn Station, but there is a 24 hour police presence there, a heavy ridership, and you couldn't compare that to say East 143 St on the 6 or Freeman St on the 2/5 now could you?
PATH is a whole different kettle of fish. They have personnel monitoring the station via CCTV 24 hours a day with smaller, and for the most part straight platforms. And they only have to watch 13 stops. When something happens, the police are dispatched immediately. The TA has no plans to implement this at this time.
It's just a matter of scale. Sure, the TA would need a lot more cameras and camera-watchers ... just like it needs lots more cars, turnstiles, signals, etc. etc. It's a much bigger system than PATH, but also has more resources.
Also, the PATH does not go into certain desolate high crime areas like the subway does. Sure it serves Newark Penn Station, but there is a 24 hour police presence there, a heavy ridership, and you couldn't compare that to say East 143 St on the 6 or Freeman St on the 2/5 now could you?
All of PATH's New Jersey stops except Newark Penn probably can be desolate during off-hours, even Journal Square and Hoboken to some extent. And we're drifting off the real issue, which is the fact that the subway's station agents, locked away in their booths, are virtually useless when it comes to providing security. Plenty of security cameras and customer panic buttons would do the job much better.
Actually, the real real issue is something else entirely. The fact remains that no station agents are going to lose their jobs - I consider the newspaper's use of the term "face the ax" to be quite misleading and maybe even a little irresponsible. All of the cuts will be made through attrition. I can guarantee you that no private-sector employer would be so accommodating. If a private company ran the subways, the station agents (and probably most conductors) would be history.
TA had this planned when they negotiated the last contract when "general maintenance" of the turnstiles was part of the Station
Agents job. When this happens they will be subject to the same criminal element that preys on the passengers. Without the protection of the booth and access to the "panic button" muggings and fare beating will be at an all-time high.
Station agents won't need the "protection" of the booth when doing customer-service duty on the platforms because they won't handle money.
Wrong! I am a lunch relief and there are plenty of Emotionally disturbed persons (EDPs) out in the system. Many times I have had to find the conductor on a train and have them call for police.
I am not concernedf over losing my job- I wont. What we are concerned about is **system safety**
Thats right! there are alot of Emotionally disturbed persons out there and sometimes us Conductor have to do the reverse. Sometimes with these radios you find you and your Train Operator have dead batteries so you may need to find a Station Agent to call for help for you. There where times my radio battery was good when I left lets say 242 Street by the time I get to 168 the battery is low. Then when I get to 14 Street northbound the battary is dead.
They may not need Station Agents to sell tokens or card but you still need someone there to give out information about the subway and able to call for help if somethings happens.
Also now were are the train crews going to send a person if they get sick. Control center always trys to tell Conductors to bring a sick person to the Both or if someone is a victim of a robbery their suppose to be sent to the Both. I guess now if someone gets sick the train will be discharged and run light while the C/R waits on the platform with the sick person until help arrives.
How many subtalkers rode on the Dyre Line between the hours of Midnight and 5AM when it OPTO and no station agents on duty anywhere. How many people are going to say they felt safe? I feel crime will increase if TA gets there way. I alway find there always a group of troublemakers that hang around a both when theres no one there.
We are a team! we need t/Os, C/Rs and S/As!I have also spoken to T/Ds ,TSSs, Tw/Os, etc to get assistance.
Your statement about hanging around a booth is so true. If we see someone lurking around even an open booth we are supposed to ask them if they are waiting for someone.If they say no then we ask them to leave. If they say they are waiting for someone we ask when their person will come. Even then we sometimes ask them to move.
Just yesterday late pm I was at 168 on the C. The train was going out of service and I saw a customer trapped in the train. I shouted in a carrying voice to the train crew and starteds to flag the train on the uptown plat (I was on the downtown plat). Someone must have heard me or seen the customer. An employee ran to the customer and freed them.
Anytime I am in the system I practice the mantra taught in class.."We are the eyes and ears of the system." I have even saved NJT from problems with doors opening to no platform due to train skidding past a statiom or door problems. Once I even told the head conductor of a person riding between the front coach and the engine!
I feel the same way sometimes when there is a problem. 2 Mouths ago I was working South Ferry. Its assigned as a platform job but your really an ATD. There was a track fire at Chambers street uptown. A train was in the station and ofcause I was ordered to hold the train. So I made a PA announcement and I also called up the station agents at South Ferry, Rector, to advise them of the problem. This way they can handle the people when they start seeing that no trains where running. I was informing them on how RTO was handling everything. We handled it good at south ferry. The Station Agent closed the station and the crew dicharged and everyone walked over to the N.R Lines. Then in 10 Minutes I informed everyone we were on the move at Chambers and everything went back to normal. This is a good example of what can happen when everyone works together. Now my supervisor at Chambers street had no time to give me orders he just said do whatever you have to do and hung up. So we did just that. Also there where cops also helping us. Now without the help of the station Agent people would have still been coming down the stairs. I gave her alot of credit because she was working real good with the problem at hand.
That's something I don't get. Back in the "old days", the radios
clipped into the brackets in the cab and got their power from
the trainline B+. These HTs are great....you can be in touch
wherever you are, down on the roadbed, in the toilet, etc., but
one thing I don't understand: why weren't the radios designed so
that they could be "docked" in a radio bracket in the cab where
they could stay on charge?
>>> I don't understand: why weren't the radios designed so that they could be "docked" in a radio bracket in the cab where they could stay on charge? <<<
Unfortunately rechargeable batteries when they do fail, fail very quickly. I assume that the present radios are recharged when not in use, and when they are checked out at the start of a run they indicate that the battery has a full charge. The only practical solution if the batteries are mission critical is to install new batteries on a schedule before the expected end of life. An organization that is pinching pennies will not do this, and therefore the people in the field will suffer failures.
Tom
The problem with the portable batteries is that a good chunk of them will not be able to hold either a full charge, or even half a charge.
Often, a T/O or C/R will get a new battery that the charger says is "ready", only to have it die 5 to 10 minutes later.
>>> Often, a T/O or C/R will get a new battery that the charger says is "ready", only to have it die 5 to 10 minutes later. <<<
This is exactly the problem that I pointed out in my previous post. Rechargeable batteries do not last forever. They have a limited number of charging cycles, and once past that number, they will exhibit the symptoms you described.
Tom
I'm going to guess that the TA has gone with the usual Motorola radios with the snap-bottom NiCd batteries - the issue being the nature of NiCd's in general ... they develop "memory" if they're repeatedly recharged from the same level. If a battery is used only part way REGULARLY and hits the charger, the chemicals tend to get used to a shallow charge/discharge cycle and won't take a full charge.
And if the TA cheaped out on the charger packs, then they'll just do a "trickle charge/fast charge" which won't help the sitch. To overcome "memory" with these things, the batteries need to get a random use and recharge pattern along with routine DEEP discharge until they won't put out volts no more to erase the effect.
The more sophisticated chargers will do a "cycling" and take the batteries to a deep discharge every now and then. But if the routine is drop the battery in the charger and let them go without randomizing the cycling of them, they don't last very long.
It WOULD make more sense to have a charging connector in the cab like the old days and use the radios on inboard battery ONLY when you're not IN the cab ... but then who cares what I think? :)
The TA has gone with new Bendix-King radios which have replaced the old Motorola portables (Motorola spares are still used in the event that a crew member does not have a radio assigned to him). The new radios still use NiCd batteries.
There's your culprit then - it's the battery technology that falls victim to the memory effect. Use a cheapie charger that just applies charge without a "battery balancing" function and deep discharge and you'll get that "memory effect" pretty quickly.
Reason I know this as well as I do is I used to work in TELEVISION and them NiCds are used for the cameras, recorders and the headlight. It's a VERY expensive proposition (resulting in lost shoots, the mortal sin of television) and prudent care requires a charger that will deep discharge the batteries cyclically to prevent the "memory effect" from taking hold. And the better chargers can also cure "dead cell" problems resulting from metallic whiskers forming in a cell in there. But given the low bid mentality of government agencies and a typical "commodity mentality" lack of knowledge, my bet is the TA bought chitty shargers for the batteries ...
These batteries are very sensitive to the kind of treatment they receive. I have a Motorola Radius GP300 as my ambulance pager. I must have that radio on at all times, and I find that I need two batteries one in the chager the other on the radio.
When they are new I can get 12 hours on 12 hours off on each battery, as they deterioate, I can only get 6 on and 6 off, and then less, but then I have them replaced, and they are frequently but not always within their waranty period.
The problem is not with the chargers or the batteries, but in the management of time on and time off of the charge, and when you turn batteries in each evening, who is keeping track of which are new and whcih are are on thier last legs and should be tossed.
The best solution is that each operating employee should have a personal radio with their own personal battery. Charge them at home, not at the depot, then you will know the exact contiton of your battery, and will get a new one when the old becomes unreliable. These radios are only about $700 each, and the TA should get a much better price on the quantities that they need.
Elias
Why not NiMH or LiON batteries? Not sure which type is in my cell phone but I've been using it for nearly three years, charging it every four or five days (depending on my usage) - and that's doing the charge when it indicates half strength remaining.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NiMH's don't suffer the "memory" phenomena, but they cost out the wazoo ... "low bids" don't play dat ... but yes, if the adminiswigs could convince the beancounters of the savings, it would be a smart move. Sadly, Administrivia positions fail to find that in their desk titles ... but those puppies COST ... they pay it off, but not in one election cycle. :)
NiMH is not that more expensive than NiCd, maybe double the price (based on Radio Shack pricing) Lithium ions are the ones "costing out the wazoo"
Arti
Li batteries CAN be recharged, but it ain't easy. NiMH's were what I was thinking for TA radios though since it's a mature technology. The problem is that they DO cost twice as much as the other and when you're dealing with government purchases, "low bidder" usually wins. When you write specifications that precludes NiCd, then the companies that make NiCd will come after you for "rigging the bids" ...
In the "real world" you can buy whatever makes sense, and to keep stockholders happy, you will try to go for the lowest bid. You don't have that kind of leeway though in government purchasing because no matter WHAT you do, someone's going to whine at an elected so you go the path of least resistance ... just to avoid the investigations. :)
Actually, I just checked my phone (you got me curious...), it has an Li-ion battery which I installed in January 1999 to replace the original NiMH. The NiMH lasted seven months before it would no longer hold a charge for more than a couple of hours. Because we have a network upgrade going on tomorrow, which means I'm likely to be on the phone for a couple of hours, I'll put the phone on the charger tonight since it's at half strength (after four days of mostly standby, 30 minutes of talk time); otherwise, thanks to the Li-ion battery, I wouldn't have to bother until tomorrow night at the earliest.
The Li-ion battery cost $85 when I purchased it, in contrast to the NiMH, which would have been about $40 at that time. Today's list prices are $50 and $25 respectively (from the Nokia website), with street prices presumably lower. Batteries for TA radios would presumably have to have higher ratings, since they are in constant talk mode and should have the capacity to last an entire shift - even the 1500 mAh of the Li-ion (in contrast to the 900 mAh) of the NiMH referenced above wouldn't be sufficient for an entire shift, based on my experience with the phone.
Another interesting observation which I can't explain, but which someone who knows batteries probably can: the NiMH batteries seem to do fine with the "fast" chargers, but if I charge the Li-ion with the "fast" charger it really doesn't end up fully charged. The "slow" charger does fine overnight anyway, so it's not a problem, but I have to remember to take the charger with me when travelling so I can plug it in at night if I need to, rather than being able to just plug it into the accessory outlet in my Windstar.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed that the Li batteries are the best way to go but the price would put them out of the running for a TA contract I would expect. Li batteries CAN be recharged BUT they're funny chemically ... the slow charge would work better there (though a fast charge with pulses on it would also work) - has to do with the slower chemical reaction. Unfortunately most chargers are designed for NiCds which aren't fussy. To do NiMH and LiO batteries properly, you need some waveshaping of the DC with a sharp spike every couple of seconds, a reverse spike every couple of seconds and varying current load. Just the way the beasts work. There ARE chargers for them but also beaucoup pricey.
Would the TA care enough that the radios work to jump to a higher price plateau for the next battery purchases? :)
Would the TA care enough that the radios work to jump to a higher price plateau for the next battery purchases?
That would depend on the adaptability of the radios to the newer batteries. I don't know how the TA radios are constructed. If the batteries are internal/removeable, they probably can't change, assuming I am right in my observation that Li-ion batteries are physically larger than the equivalent capacity NiMH or NiCd - not much, but just enough that I don't think they would fit in the same hole (my Li-ion cell phone battery is 2mm thicker than the NiMH one, which is the basis of this observation). If the batteries are part of a slip-on pack, like my cellphone (or as a bundle attached at the base of the radio, as some are), then changing them shouldn't be a big deal. And, for my cell phone at least, the slow charger works equally well with all of the battery types, although as you point out ideally the charger should be exactly matched to the battery.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The "catch" with LiO batteries is that they really weren't INTENDED to be recharged. LiO batteries' MAJOR selling point is their longer shelf life and the fact that the voltage across the cell tends to remain high until it dies, rather than that awful log curve towards death of other batteries ... but the manufacturers didn't really *intend* for them to be recharged, thus their funky characteristic. Exploding cylinders is not my idea of fun ... unless connected to a transmission or prime mover of course. :)
Kevin, maybe I'm missing something here (and given that I know almost nothing about chemistry or electronics that's entirely possible), but I can't imagine a cellphone battery not being intended to be recharged. Seems to me if they're being manufactured purpose-specific like that, they must have an expectation that they'll be charged a few thousand times.
My laptop has a Li-ion battery too...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK ... let me back this up a bit - when "Lithium" batteries were FIRST introduced, they came with warnings NOT to attempt to charge them. What's happened over time since their introduction is that it was determined with some changes in the design that they COULD be made to safely dissipate the internal heat and thus because of their long voltage curve (they don't drop off with age as do older batteries on a discharge cycle - they tend to stay at voltage until they're nearly depleted, thus their popularity even when they were "one use" batteries) they became VERY attractive for recharge use.
But the original designs of these batteries didn't anticipate recharging and the way the chemisty in the cells works, they behave oddly when charged in a traditional NiCd type brute-force charger. Give them high current and they heat up and the charge cycle gets a bit funny (due to the chemistry) with a traditional "fast charge" ... if you TRICKLE charge them, they don't heat internally as much and can therefore take the charge a bit better.
Where I was going with all this is that to handle LiO's properly, you need a "funny charge" where a medium current with "burps" or "spikes" clocking along allows a pretty rapid charge, at least comparable with the charge speeds folks expect from more traditional NiCds of NiMHs ... so if the charger is designed to work with the LiO's, then happy days. Most aren't and thus they'll behave a bit funny absent the "conditioning signals" ... what I was postulating is that the funny chargers that would make LiO's a practical swap for TA use would probably be VERY pricey ... does that sorta swing what I was saying back towards something semi-logical? (I was posting before with wigs over my shoulder wondering how I could write code posting on subtalk. Answer, I couldn't, needed a brain break ... heh)
does that sorta swing what I was saying back towards something semi-logical?
Yes, I follow what you're saying now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My digital camera uses AA Batteries. The manual specifically said nmot to use Li-ion batteries since they produce extra heat which could damage the camera. I do use NiMH batteries. Perhaps the TA Radios have the same stipulation
I'm sure they do ... but even with the existing battery stock, if they had the "burper" chargers, chances are there wouldn't be so many pooted radios out there. Anton-Bauer made nice chargers for TV industry use and they're still out there. There ARE solutions for the problem but my guess is the low bidder didn't provide same. So it goes.
Yeah, those radios are a few years old now and I'll bet a lot
of them are still on their original packs. BUT, the main thrust
of my post was that while the radios are being used in the cab, they
should be docked and draw power from the train, rather than
running down the batteries.
No comments from Train Dude on this one? The radio changeover
was after I left, so I have no idea why this wasn't done. Maybe
there is a good engineering reason for it.
>>> the main thrust of my post was that while the radios are being used in the cab, they should be docked and draw power from the train, <<<
The problem with leaving the radios docked in the cab is that if they are there most of the time, there would be a tendency for a T/O or C/R to leave it there when leaving the cab. That of course is the time that it is most likely to be needed. Leaving them on charge most of the day would also increase the memory effect on the NiCad batteries.
Tom
Agreed ... once upon a time that was the way it went though and when "docked" the battery was out of circuit, there to run when it wasn't in its cradle ... but yes, it still comes down to how the charger HANDLES the batteries when they're dropped in it.
I am sure there are other negative aspects to this but what does TA care as long as the bottom line shows a profit.
In this day and age, no public agency in the "business" of hauling people ever "shows a profit." Passenger rail is and will forever be heavily subsidized in one way or another, no matter what fancy accounting methods are employed. What the TA cares about is allowing those who appointed them to be able to claim that they saved the taxpayers money so they, in turn, keep their jobs. The public, as "shareholders" in the MTA, will never "make money" from that investment!
Now, whether the investment is necessary, and how much of it should filter to the rank-and-file public transport workers' paychecks, is another debate.
Why not cut management.. I do believe one "suit" at 130 Linvingston or 370 Jay makes more than we do. If they cut 200+ station agents why not cut some "suits"---sounds fair!
OPTO, unmanned or lightly manned stations...go ahead, cut the jobs.
The we wind up with yet more safety/security problems so we need more police and wind up spending yet more money. Maybe they're happier with a police state? In the midst of it all gainful employment for clerks, train persons etc is reduced but then no different from the big RR's or corporate America generally.
Chicago TA has abolished the conductors and despite keping former agents at the stations as customer assistants I noticed last map I got had a statement that said to the effect if you need assistance ask a customer assistant [or whatever title they have now] or sceurity person. Does this translate to attrition for the agents in time to be replaced with security people? Sad commentary on life.
Kings Hwy Brighton, they have been picking up the money with armored cars the last 4 times I've seen the money transfer from the main booth.
Too bad for the money train, they always stayed extra here because they layed up on the express track and ran to the 24 hr Dunkin Dounuts.
I saw the collector on CPW yesterday, early AM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you also think that cities made a mistake by doing away with cops directing traffic on the street corner and replacing them with traffic lights? After all having traffic lights is far less safe then having cops.
Notice the TA's refusal to indicate which stations would be affected. They do not want the community battle they faced with the G cut down.
My understanding is that every station will still have some level of 24/7 staffing, either inside or outside the booth.
That, of course, leads to a Really Stupid Question: For how many decades have PATH's stations been completely UNstaffed? With NO ILL EFFECTS reported?
Even the Los Angeles County MTA has totally unstaffed stations on the heavy-rail Red Line as well as the light-rail Blue and Green Lines. (Between my last two visits, I saw only one MTA cop - at the Hollywood/Vine station, one landing down from street level.)
>>> Even the Los Angeles County MTA has totally unstaffed stations on the heavy-rail Red Line as well as the light-rail Blue and Green Lines. (Between my last two visits, I saw only one MTA cop <<<
After 7:00 PM on weekdays, the three downtown stations of the Red Line beyond the 7th Street transfer station to the Blue Line are virtually deserted with no MTA personnel (but plenty of cameras) and very few passengers. The major problems are with gang shootings on buses rather than muggings in the subway.
The LAMTA police force must be a very small organization. They are not the ones who do the fare checks. The L.A. County Sheriff's Office provides the manpower for that. The only time I ever saw an LAMTA police officer was guarding property gates during the recent strike. Of course police are scarce all over L.A. (unless you commit some offense such as DWB). Even some of the doughnut shops are unmanned at times.
Tom
The LAMTA police force must be a very small organization. They are not the ones who do the fare checks. The L.A. County Sheriff's Office provides the manpower for that. The only time I ever saw an LAMTA police officer was guarding property gates during the recent strike. Of course police are scarce all over L.A. (unless you commit some offense such as DWB). Even some of the doughnut shops are unmanned at times.
You're right about the scarcity of police. I did a lot of travel around Los Angeles during our trip last February, and saw very few police cars of any department (LAPD, LASO, etc.) NYPD units are far more prevalent in New York.
>>> I did a lot of travel around Los Angeles during our trip last February, and saw very few police cars <<<
The L.A.P.D. are known as the "thin blue line" for a reason. There are less than 8,000 sworn officers in the city including supervisors, detectives, traffic officers, etc. The population of L.A. is close to 3 million, with more from the suburbs in the city during the daytime. Since each officer works a little less than 160 hours a month, considering time off and sick leave and vacations, it takes 4.57 officers to provide one officer on duty 24 hours a day every day of the year. This works out to an average of 1,714 citizens for each police officer on duty. If 99% of Los Angelinos are fully law abiding, the police are still outnumbered 17 to 1 by the bad guys.
Tom
In most small cities the police people ratio is like 3 to 5 k. I was reading up on 18th Century London and in the East End (the poor part) where was one cop per 347 citizens. That's the reason why London never saw the mass riots and upheavals that the other Europian capitols saw in that same time period.
>>> I was reading up on 18th Century London and in the East End (the poor part) where was one cop per 347 citizens. <<<
And in NYC today the ratio is about 1 cop per 200 citizens. (41,000 police)
Tom
PATCO stations are usually unmanned except for NJ suburban stations from 6:30 to 9:30 when a ticket window is open for the purchase of 2 and 10 ride tickets.
There are no HEET Turnstyles or anything and they have never really had a problem even w/ 24/7 operation.
PATCO station houses are at street level (in NJ)with extensive use of glass so they are visible to passing police. NJYC stations are either underground or hung under the tracks or at track level (el station) with solid sides and rear so they are not visible.
PATCO stations also have closed circuit TV cameras all over the place, which is a disincentive for criminal activity. It also means that innocent riders who misplace their tickets and hop over the turnstile to exit are on tape.
In NYC, cameras get spray painted or even broken. Once it took 3 hours to get my cameras back in service and that was in Midtown Manhattan. My supervisor did not even call until 30 minutes after I reported the problem. I can imagine how long a camera would be out in the tip of the Bronx or the tip of the Rockaways. How many will get robbed, hurt, suffer severe medical emergency, get stuck in high tunstiles while waiting for someone to clean/repair the cameras. I have also worked stations where 1-3 of the monitors were out for weeks! Yes- the problem was called in every shift and no action was taken.
Not expressing an opinion either way, but I'm sure that you'd agree that with the money saved from 200-some station agents, a 24-hour rapid response team to fix broken/vandalized cameras could fit within the budget.
It also means that innocent riders who misplace their tickets and hop over the turnstile to exit are on tape.
As I lost my ticket and had to hop on Tuesday this might be a concearn, but they also have me on tape paying, buying the correct ticket and me on the platform searching frantically for my ticket.
"PATCO station houses are at street level (in NJ)with extensive use of glass so they are visible to passing police. NJYC stations are either underground or hung under the tracks or at track level (el station) with solid sides and rear so they are not visible."
Several MBTA Green line stations do not have collectors and are either underground or on an el. There is not any safety problem at those stations.
PATCO station houses are at street level (in NJ)with extensive use of glass so they are visible to passing police. NYC stations are either underground or hung under the tracks or at track level (el station) with solid sides and rear so they are not visible.
Several MBTA Green line stations do not have collectors and are either underground or on an el. There is not any safety problem at those stations.
Same goes for PATH.
i forgot what line will be giving the r62's to the 7. does anyone know? and do you think that by septenber we will have the 62's?
another thing is, what is a r62 full width cab and a half width cab? does that mean that the car changes width?
I know it's nitpicky, but I'm the son of an English teacher. I can't help it. The question is which line.
I'm sure a witch could change the car's width, but that is not what the "Full width/half width" cab means. A full width cab extends all the way across the front or rear end of the car, thus blocking access to the doors and "railfan window", though providing a much more comfortable work area for the T/O. They're found at the "A" ends of all 75-footers (R44, R46, R68), and some R62s. A half width cab is only a little boot at the end of each car, found in other car classes.
I don't know where the 7 will get its R62As from. I hear some from the 6 and some from the 3, but that's just what I heard.
:-) Andrew
Please to get the terminology correct.
What you are calling a full-width cab is a Transverse Cab; what you are calling a half-width cab is a just a plain old Cab (which is not a boot. Or are you related to Joe Pesci's character in My Cousin Vinny?). Transverse cabs are found on the open ends of all R62 and R62A cars that have been 'married' into five car units, as well as the A ends of the 75-footers, as you stated. The open end of the 62-type equipment can be either the #1 or #2 end of the car.
is your last name Karwowski?
is your last name Karwowski?
Sorry, no. It's Kirschner. Andrew Kirschner.
(Shaken, not stired.)
:)
Carl LaFong. Capital L, small A. Capital F, small O, small N, small G. LaFong.
Are you trying to relieve air congestion by encouraging witches to get off their brooms and use transit?
Mark
ok my mistake its WHICH
The R62A cars are now suppose to come from the No.1 and No.3 Lines. As of now the No.6 Line cars are being sent to the No.1&3 to make room for the R142A's.
Isn't that in Salem?
Picked up the train sim at the COMP USA on 5th for $44. They have 15 copies in stock. Didn't have much time to play last night, but graphics and sounds were pretty cool. Anyone else have any feedback on the sim?
This one is a success! I love it, it's fun, realistic and the views are fantastic. I get a constant 32fps when playing, my specs are:
Dell L700cx with:
700mhz Celeron
256MB RAM
20GB Hard Drive (1.8 for a Full Install of MSTS :-\)
Hercules 3D Prophet II MX PCI
a 15" monitor running at 800x600
It's worth the money or the download, whichever way you swing :-)
-Clayton
Wait until you realize the locomotive performance issues.
-Hank
You should have waited until tomorrow. It goes on sale at CompUSA for $29.99. Just might go grab one myself.
Jury faults Amtrak in teenager's death
A Boston Blobe stroy.
Now There were three signs saying to stay off the tracks also she had to weave her way around three fences yet somehow it's Amtrak's fault. And the fact that other people were doing it: that falls under the if other people were jumping off a bridge category. Maybe the MBTA was right to cave in to the demands.
[There were three signs saying to stay off the tracks....]
Again, I'm reminded of the "pisser" case in Chicago. A guy wandered onto a CTA right-of-way at a grade crossing, urinated on the third rail, and was electrocuted. His family sued, claiming that the warning signs should have been printed IN CHINESE!!
Hell with it. The railroads must be legally protected from people getting hurt from doing dumb things. People driving around crossing gates and getting killed. People should pay the railroad for delaying trains.
There should be a law stating that injuries sustained during the commission of a crime - like trespassing - are not compensatable.
If a burglar breaks into your house and gets hurt when he falls after tripping on something, he would have real brass ones if he filed a lawsuit. If some idiot kid climbed on top of a passenger car on the Northeast Corridor line and got electrocuted when he contacted the catenary, and I was the judge hearing the case brought by his parents, I would make them pay for the cost of the accident investigation, and lecture them hard about the plain fact that their child was trespassing and had no business being where he was when he died. They would have to live with the fact that he died of his own idiocy, and that the rest of us were not going to pay them because he was stupid. Now, if he was on a platform and the catenary wire broke and fell on him, causing his death, then his family would get compensation, because he did not deliberately put himself in harm's way when he died. There is a big difference between being an innocent bystander and a real knucklehead.
In the interest of accuracy, I believe the family was Korean. I can't recall the final disposition of that case. Can someone from Chicago remind us?
I thought he was hispanic, actually, but I'm not certain of it. The location of his demise was in a very hispanic neighborhood.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> Maybe the MBTA was right to cave in to the demands. <<<
They certainly were. The prior death indicated that it was a dangerous place, and the railroad was given notice that the warning signs were being ignored. The partial fence they built was inadequate to prevent trespassing and provided a trap for anyone on the tracks when a train was approaching.
From what was written in the article, this was a plaintiff's lawyer's dream case.
Tom
>From what was written in the article, this was a plaintiff's lawyer's dream case.
No kidding. A warning sign doesn't get you out of trouble, especially when you know it's not effective:
Say you have a dog. It bites someone. It likes biting people. So, you put a sign up: "Beware of dog". 2 months later, it mauls a kid who runs onto your property to retrive a ball. You're liable. And, the plantif loves you cause you put up a sign admitting your dog was dangerous. So you admitted that you had a dangerous condition, and you knew people were walking on your property too (else why have the sign?)
Of course, I'm sure the Amfreaks will somehow link this to the vast conspiracy to kill Amtrak off....
"(else why have the sign?)"
Because their insurance company requires the sign.
Elias
>>> Say you have a dog. It bites someone. It likes biting people. So, you put a sign up: "Beware of dog". 2 months later, it mauls a kid who runs onto your property to retrive a ball. You're liable. And, the plantif loves you cause you put up a sign admitting your dog was dangerous. So you admitted that you had a dangerous condition, and you knew people were walking on your property too (else why have the sign?) <<<
I think your analogy is a bit off. If the kid who runs into the yard after the ball is the first one who ever did it, and he is old enough to read, you might escape liability. If you know you have a vicious dog, and you fail to post a sign you are in a lot worse shape than if you did post it. The sign does not show you knew people were walking on your property, it is a warning not to walk on the property. I would advise anyone who owns a dog, no matter how gentle, to post a "beware of dog" sign.
A better analogy would be having the sign up all the time with no fence, but only having the dog in the yard once in awhile, and knowing that the local kids regularly cut through the yard as a shortcut. If you have done nothing to prevent the kids from using your yard as a shortcut, but one day your vicious dog is there (on a long chain which allows him to reach the edge of your property but no further), and the dog ambushes and mauls a kid you are in big trouble, and the sign is going to be no defense at all.
In the railroad context, there should be signs telling people not to cross or walk on the tracks, but if the railroad knows that large numbers of people regularly walk on the tracks in a given area, and does nothing to effectively stop them, the signs are not going to prevent liability, when someone is struck by a train.
Tom
The "dog" analogy is a bad one legally since there is a legal requirement in all jurisdictions for you to "control your dog" ... if you've sat through enough Wapner, Judy, Mathis, whatever, you are required to control the dog at all times ... and on the railroad side, there is also a control element and to control the property even when trespassed.
SOME railroads take that seriously with barbly wire, dogs and antivandal forces to show "due dilligence" ... railroad will probably lose based on that "control" angle ... I believe in Darwin myself and live accordingly but that doesn't get past what our politicos have been doing in modifying the law to near perversions ...
"Beware of dog" is as meaningless as "not responsible for lost or stolen property" ... neither sign repels sharks. :)
ONLY IN " AMERI-KAAAAA ! ! "
Let's see if I understand how America works lately . . .
If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap while driving, she blames the restaurant.
If your teen-age son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll music
or musician he liked.
If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer,
your family blames the tobacco company.
If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain you blame the
school for poor sex education.
If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you
blame the bartender.
If your cousin gets AIDS because the needle he used to shoot up with heroin was dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones.
If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television.
If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun
manufacturer.
And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the
pilots at 35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the deceased blames the airline.
I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore.
So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this
computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK?
[So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this
computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK? ]
Can I blame Andy Grove and the whole country of Hungary?
Arti
Heh. "Joint and several liability" says "let's go after them ALL!"
>>> So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK? <<<
I don't know about going after Bill Gates, but I think we should go after the PC industry just like they finally got the tobacco industry. I am a great example of the harm using a PC can do.
I got my first PC in 1979 and have been using them continuously since them, and I have noticed the following symptoms that were not present before then:
1. Most of my hair has fallen out, and that which hasn't has turned gray.
2. I have had to start using glasses to read.
3. I tire more easily.
4. I seem to have more aches in my joints.
5. My hearing is not as acute as it was before using the PC.
6. My reflexes seem to be slowing down.
7. My memory is not as good as it was before using the PC,
8. My libido is reduced.
9. I have had a minor stroke and heart attack.
10. I have had to start taking insulin for diabetes.
11. I have gained about 30 pounds.
12. When I look in the mirror it seems like I have prematurely aged. (I bet Dick Clark does not use a PC)
I have noticed similar symptoms in other long term PC users, and it may be contagious, because I have even seen some of the symptoms in others who do not use PCs but are in regular contact with those who do.
Now all we have to do is find a lawyer who will file a class action suit against the PC industry for causing all this harm. :-^)
Tom
Maybe the one who just sued MBTA and Amtrakis available...:0)
Definitely sue the PC maker! Those things don't happen to Mac users.
Right on!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about webtv ? Jim Jr. called my new set the getto web ? I've been on the internet one year. Now I cant get off.
You can't blame the PC, Blame your parents. They decided to have you and that caused the birth date on your drivers licence. :-)
Try losing the thirty pounds while under your doctor's supervision, and you might reduce or eliminate your need for insulin. Get up and exercise more, again under your doctor's supervision, and your risk of heart disease will decrease. Work out more, again, under your doctor's supervision, and you might feel less tired. Work with your doctor, and push yourself, and you might just live longer. The PC did not put you in the condition you are in, you did. If you lose the weight and feel more energized, your wife just might start to chase you around the house while wearing nothing but a big red flower in her hair and a devilish smile on her face. Think of the incentives, and have fun!
I like your attitude.
The PC did not put you in the condition you are in, you did.
Er, I think you're taking Old Tom's post a bit more seriously than he intended. I read it as metaphorically dripping with sarcasm. Note that the changes he describes have taken place since 1979 ... the real culprit is Father Time.
True, but you have to make Father Time run for his money. Live healthy, and you will enjoy more of life. Old Man Time is on the hunt for all of us, but we must not let our lives get ruined because of that. I want to enjoy life, but I will do what is reasonable and prudent to do so, and avoid unnecessary risks, like smoking, excess alcohol, inactivity, and the like. I hope to be able to enjoy the R-143 when it is part of a nostalgia train - now that is stretching things, but you must admit, it would be one really fun ride. Maybe by then the Second Ave. line will be in operation, and maybe ( shocking ) the airtrain currently under construction just might be a part of the SUBWAY SYSTEM!
Hey Doc,
The Philadelphia Inquirer had an interesting article on obesity in the Sunday Edition. From getting up in the morning, you can use TV remotes, drive to work, pick up food and gas at drive-up windows, work in a cubicle and send emails to somebody sitting five feet away, eat lunch, back to work, then have cheesecake because of some celebration. Then you go home, eat dinner and watch TV.
The subway is our friend here. Even if you use ADA access, you still have to walk to the train station (or bus stop), get on, ride, get off, walk to work, then walk from work, ride the train, walk home. On the train or bus, sometimes you give up your seat to a lady with a cane, so you stand for the ride. Shifting your feet and pulling on the bars is a bit of a workout too.
Now, to that, I add (when I'm at that kind of job): climbing stairs (I don't use the ADA access most of the time); I like to talk to colleagues, so I get up and walk to them, not shoot emails all day;
and do some of my grocery shopping "hoofing it." (OK, so sometimes my wife and I use a car - you can't take 30 lbs of Costco stuff home very easily on the train).
I owe part of my normal weight to the transit system.
That goes to show you that you and no one else but you - has to do the right thing for your own health. If you do not get out there and move around, the rust will set in, the pipes will clog up, and the system will break down. Give old man time a run for his money.
When do we start suing the movie and TV industries for youth crime, serial killings in schools etc.
Can't be any worse than the Amtrak case we're discussing, or the tobacco situation.
I've enjoyed my pipe for most of 40 years...I know smokers and those in the second hand smoke environment that lived long lives and know people who died from it. Nobody put a gun to their head to smoke.
Likewise living with an alky for over two years; I doubt if alcohol ads MADE any of these people drink. Should we pick on them next for highway slaughter, children going hungry, disease and premature deaths, etc.
You cross a street you look, or else...no? Areas other than public crossings on any rail line are NOT public, but if the shortcut is atrractive don't you look for trains? You buy coffee you don't want it lukewarm...but sue if you get burned? Where does it end?
[Nobody put a gun to their head to smoke.]
Sorry Ed but I have to disagree with you there. If the tobacco companies put additives into cigarettes that make them addictive they certainly are negligent and guilty, civilly and possibly criminally. I smoked for almost 30 years and know how hard it is to quit. Smokers should all be mad as hell at the companies instead of sticking up for them.
Guess I hadn't thought of that angle. [addiction causing additives]. I don't get nicotine fits or nervous without my pipe...it bothers me more not having my pacifier but I've gone an entire day without sometimes and don't get owly.
"The prior death indicated that it was a dangerous place, and the railroad was given notice that the warning signs were being ignored. The partial fence they built was inadequate to prevent trespassing and provided a trap for anyone on the tracks when a train was approaching."
They shouldn't need any sign or any fence. Do you need a sign to tell people to stay out of your home? What she did was no different then if she had broken into your home and fell down your stairs. She was a criminal and had she been arrested the police would have been sued for that.
>>> What she did was no different then if she had broken into your home and fell down your stairs. <<<
Oh Come on! Are you really trying to equate a passenger (who is a business invitee) crossing a ROW following others on a well trodden path with a residential burglary? They are miles apart. And by the way, burglars have recovered for injuries caused by dangerous conditions on the premises they broke into. And if you are a homeowner, you definitely must not use a spring gun or any other booby trap which kills or maims an intruder, or you will be the one going to prison.
Tom
"Oh Come on! Are you really trying to equate a passenger (who is a business invitee) crossing a ROW following others on a well trodden path with a residential burglary? They are miles apart. And by the way, burglars have recovered for injuries caused by dangerous conditions on the premises they broke into. And if you are a homeowner, you definitely must not use a spring gun or any other booby trap which kills or maims an intruder, or you will be the one going to prison."
The principle being that a burglar does not deserve to die for his offense (unless he steals O-gauge R-32's, in which case a slow death by torture would be appropriate :-))
I hold the parents responsible, because this, undoubtedly, was not the first time this child had crossed those tracks. I am also angry at the irresponsible adults who showed, by example, that crossing the tracks was an acceptable behavior.
When in the presence of children, it is important to play by the book - it may be inconvenient, but kids don't anticipate consequences, and an adult can lead by example and save lives.
>>> I hold the parents responsible, because this, undoubtedly, was not the first time this child had crossed those tracks. <<<
I did not re-read the article, but IIRC these were teenage children, not toddlers, and this might have been the first time they were at this station. There was an underpass to get to the other side of the tracks, but it was poorly marked and rarely used.
>>> I am also angry at the irresponsible adults who showed, by example, that crossing the tracks was an acceptable behavior. <<<
Unfortunately, as evidenced by the well worn path, crossing the tracks was acceptable behavior to the regular riders who used that station, and worse, it was clearly acceptable to the railroad who was on notice of the practice and did nothing to prevent it.
Tom
"Unfortunately, as evidenced by the well worn path, crossing the tracks was acceptable behavior to the regular riders who used that station, and worse, it was clearly acceptable to the railroad who was on notice of the practice and did nothing to prevent it."
You mean nothing beyond the measures already in place, including fences and signs. That, by itself, should have been enough.
Nonetheless, had I been the one to make a decision, I would have posted transit police who would have issued summonses (citations, tickets etc.) for crossing the tracks, and I would have called the media to help focus attentio on safety. I think $150 citation (or something like that) would have been a reasonable gift to these track-walkers.
Oh, and, yes, I would have lengthened the fence too (which they finally did).
Good ideas, but I would like to see some pro-active initiatives taken by those in charge to make sure that safety is enforced, even if some are inconvenienced. The worst inconvenience for anyone is to have to go to a hospital or morgue to see a family member who was mangled by something they could have avoided. If an overpass needs to be built, then build it, but make sure that those who opt to cross the tracks instead of using the overpass get socked with a hefty fine and or community service. Then maybe a light will go on in some heads and they will avoid taking needless risks.
Maybe these frivilous lawsuit decisions are a result of 12 people showing how much they dislike Jury Duty and bad they wanted to get out of it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This is one instance I feel is difficult to blame the victim. They should either have a good fence layout or none at all, if there were no fence she would have been able to get out of the way much easier. If the fences were better arranged she would not have bothered trying.
We find it easy to blame her for taking a shortcut, but really why would anyone bother with an underpass with such an (apparantly) easy to use shortcut? Human nature simply does not allow for people to take a longer, more difficult route simply because it is safer. Why do you think so many people jaywalk across Queens Blvd?
[Why do you think so many people jaywalk across Queens Blvd? ]
Do you suggest that the relatives of those killed on QB should sue DOT?
Arti
They should if while attempting to jaywalk one of those new fences prevents them from jumping out of the way of a car in time!
Either do a complete idiot-proofing or none at all. Or at the very least provide escape hatches (BTW: This is why the QB fences weave instead of completely isolating the island).
Train bridges with no clearance have no fences, so that those trapped can at least jump.
NJTransit tracks with fences between will have at least one side without a fence, either on the side away from the track or another track will be within the fenced area (ie: Ridgewood station).
Back to the topic at hand, it would have been totally her fault if there were reasonable escape, but the way the article was written there seems to have been none. Devices designed to deter people from crossing tracks should not prevent a reasonable escape should one choose to do so anyway. In many places in New Jersey railroad ROWs separate areas where the nearest crossing may be half a mile away. People as a result will cross the tracks, but most will be alert and wary while doing so. Put a fence up, people will still cross the tracks to avoid walking an extra mile (1/2 * 2) and will also attempt to go around, over, or through the fence. The additional obstacle will make the situation much more dangerous, and the blame can be more easily placed with the RR.
Then the answer is to secure the ROW completely, providing auto and/or pedestrian overpasses and underpasses to allow traffic to cross. Otherwise, put fences up on both side of the ROW, and signs forbidding trespassing.
Incidentally, SEPTA has decided that track-level pedestrian crossings at stations are a bad idea and will no longer install them in new or refurbished stations. SEPTA has not decided, yet, however, to remove the existing ones.
>>> SEPTA has decided that track-level pedestrian crossings at stations are a bad idea and will no longer install them in new or refurbished stations. <<<
In Southern California, the Metrolink commuter rail has some center low platforms with pedestrian crossings across the tracks to get to the platform. (Ticket machines are on the platforms) In El Monte, the parking lot for the station is right next to the outbound track, with a pedestrian crossing to the station at the middle of the platform. I do not remember seeing any gate or flashing light for that crossing. I could imagine a commuter running across those tracks to catch an inbound train in the station and being swatted by an outbound train. (No trains are scheduled to meet at the same time at that station, but you never know.)
Tom
NJ Transit's crossings do have bells and lights, at least (the Hawthorne station, for example, does).
I say, install elevated platforms (to door height) and use an overpass. Besides, you need that t be ADA-compliant anyway.
In El Monte, the parking lot for the station is right next to the outbound track, with a pedestrian crossing to the station at the middle of the platform. I do not remember seeing any gate or flashing light for that crossing. I could imagine a commuter running across those tracks to catch an inbound train in the station and being swatted by an outbound train.
In the manner of Traingirl.
Surely people don't jaywalk on Queens Boulavard.
Who would walk a Jay anyway?
Elias
Still, when you take risks, and have an unfortunate outcome, you should not blame anyone but yourself. Train tracks are not safe places to be, and if you do not belong there, stay out. Only a firefighter would go into a burning building, right? Sometimes taking the long way is much safer. If there is a need for a shorter access route, then get enough signatures on a petition and send it to the local lawmakers so that a solution can be reached. Make them work for the money they get.
On *my* railroad, saftey fences are in place between the tracks and around the platforms so that passengers cannot do this.
An I'm only running at 1:87 scale.
: )
Elias
Of course it's the parents I hold responsible. A 13-year-old is at an age where concrete thinking still prevails; consequences of actions are not fully appreciated. This can't be the first time the girl crossed those tracks.
I am angry at irresponsible adults doing it, esp. when they give a poor example for a child. When there are children present, adults have a special responsibility to act more strictly by the rules precisely because the children are taking note of this behavior.
If I am by myself, I might jaywalk across a very narrow street where, from a practical point of view, it doesn't matter. But if I see a kid standing next to me, I won't. The kid might cross anyway, but I have to at least satisfy my own conscience that I didn't encourage it. As an adult, I exercise discretion that a child is not equipped to.
I hope Amtrak appeals the decision, and finds an Appeals Court panel with enough integrity to dismiss this case. The parents are gold diggers.
Ron, don't you think it's a bit inappropriate to be calling people names after they've lost a child.
There is no question in a case like this that the death was due to negligence, including, at least in part, the negligence of at least one of the defendants. Someone who owns or controls property has a duty to eliminate unsafe conditions of which that party is aware. The documents show that both Amtrak and MBTA were aware of the unsafe condition.
The question is who had control of the property, Amtrak or MBTA or both. It appears from the article that MBTA had control, not Amtrak. If that's the case, I expect that either the trial judge will grant a motion for JNOV (Judgment Not withstanding the Verdict) or the First Circuit will reverse.
BTW, these are the same Circuit Judges who recently refused to allow bail pending Sharpton's appeal.
"Ron, don't you think it's a bit inappropriate to be calling people names after they've lost a child."
OK, you have a point. Yes, they're grieving over the child and are fully entitled to emotions of grief and anger. I don't hold the child fully responsible, because she was 13 and in need of guidance. Trouble is, so were the adults in this case.
But, no, they're not allowed to steal money from taxpayers because they lost the child and refuse to acknowledge their own responsibility.
"There is no question in a case like this that the death was due to negligence, including, at least in part, the negligence of at least one of the defendants. Someone who owns or controls property has a duty to eliminate unsafe conditions of which that party is aware. The documents show that both Amtrak and MBTA were aware of the unsafe condition."
That's a matter of opinion, and is not beyond debate, as you seem to think. Hopefully this case goes to appeals court. It may be clear to you, but it is not all that clear to me. I do think that it would have been prudent for MBTA to do something sooner, rather than later, as I've posted before.
"The question is who had control of the property, Amtrak or MBTA or both. It appears from the article that MBTA had control, not Amtrak. If that's the case, I expect that either the trial judge will grant a motion for JNOV (Judgment Not withstanding the Verdict) or the First Circuit will reverse."
Yes, Amtrak has a strong case there, I think. We can only hope...
Unfortunately, there is no shortage of case law on the subject of what constitutes negligence on the part of a railroad. (Also, bus and transit companies.) For example, tort case books used to include a pair of banana-peel-on-the-platform cases from the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachussetts (Holmes, Ch. J.). I suspect that MBTA settled with that case law in mind. If we were writing on a clean slate, we might make different law. We might, for example, deside that it is OK to have snares, pitfalls, and boobie traps on one's property or that a property owner owes no duty to trespassers. However, given the precedents, I do think that the MBTA's negligence was really beyond debate.
I do think that it would have been prudent for MBTA to do something sooner, rather than later, as I've posted before.
Negligence is the absence of due care. Isn't the absence of due care just another way of describing a lack of prudence.
As for Amtrak, it looks to me that they did act prudently. They called the situation to the attention of the responsible party. I think we're in agreement that this verdict shouldn't stand.
I think we both agree that it's likely MBTA had the "banana peel" cases in mind...I personally would still want to fight it out and hope an appeals panel showed a little gumption and made new precedent...
I hope the new fence finally puts an end to this.
>>> As for Amtrak, it looks to me that they did act prudently. They called the situation to the attention of the responsible party <<<
Was it an Amtrak train that hit the girl? If so, had Amtrak warned its engineers about the problem of people on the tracks at that location? Did they require a reduction of speed because of the hazard? If the answers are yes, no and no, than calling the situation to the attention of the responsible party would not be enough to absolve them of all liability.
Calling the condition to MBTA's attention and doing nothing further, is similar to MBTA posting signs and doing nothing further when they are ignored.
Tom
We'll see if an appeals court agrees...I can only hope not.
The # 7 train has been designated a National Millenium Trail by the Smithsonian, which will be displaying a railcar from the line. This is an honor given to, among others, the Appalachian Trail, a Lewis and Clark trail, a composite Civil War trail (with no "start" or "end" of the "trail - comprises 500 sites !), and the Underground Railroad.
For the article, see below:
click here
The 7 line is listed at the National Millenium Trail site as the "International Express".
click here
-cordially,
turnstiles
I think these old deadbirds are giving fame to the 7 line. Even though they are all busted, I think we should at least keep a set for years to come.
"I think these old deadbirds are giving fame to the 7 line. "
On a national basis I think John Rocker gave it more fame then anything else.
Maybe (off his) Rocker should be forced to live in a Redbird for a while.
You say that like it's a bad thing... ;)
Thanks for posting these stories.
The original announcement was made, I believe, over a year ago, during the Clinton Administration. Hilary Clinton announced it and visited Queens. The New York Times and Newsday covered it and said federal funds would be made available to help spruce up the line with exhibits, artwork, etc., fitting for a Millenium Trail.
"Thanks for posting these stories.
The original announcement was made, I believe, over a year ago, during the Clinton Administration. Hilary Clinton
announced it and visited Queens. The New York Times and Newsday covered it and said federal funds would be made
available to help spruce up the line with exhibits, artwork, etc., fitting for a Millenium Trail."
Ron: Yes, they definitely were and I (evidently) missed those announcements. Full apologies.
Thanks for posting. Will look forward to more good postings from you, Ron.
-cordially,
turnstiles
No apologies needed. It's good to see progress being made with the 7 line.
So I'm sitting on this wreck of a consist of R/38's held together with duct tape and good intentions. We're at Rockaway Blvd. It's 5:05pm. The signs say Far Rockaway, but we're just sitting. Everone (passengers) is getting itchy to ride. The doors close, the doors open and stay open. We keep sitting there. The car starts to shake a little. It's the type of shake when another train is approaching. I cast a glance out of the trackside windows. A Giant Panda looking train is on the center track, K3/4, heading to the Pitkin yard if doesen't take the turn out before Hudson. The number boards read 8108-8101. There were two sets of four cars. On board SHARING the T/O cab were a couple of geeks. If they weren't getting paychecks from the NYCTA they'd be railfans. The consist continues on. We are still sitting, and the doors are still open. We begin to shake again, but only a little. Work diesel #72 goes past on K3/4 heading to the Pitkin yard. More time goes by. The doors close and again we shake some more, its a consist of r/44s coming from the Rockaways. We begin to move at last.
So, what are you doing?
avid
Sounds like they are getting ready to do the Rockaway Raunt with the R143s. Proving time.
I saw them broken up into two sets on the third track between Broad Channel and North Channel Bridge at about 4:40. Unlike the Dyre line, this test track does not provide opportunities for photo ops, so we must rely on the times when it is travelling between the yard and the test track, or when they pull it down to Broad channel and up to Howard Beach for lunch breaks (I guess, since when the R-142 was being tested down there it went to Howard Beach northbound "express" at around 12:30 and everyone got off and exited, they all came back a bit later).
In a recent Daily News Op-Ed, Local 100 President P. Troussant brought out an excellent point with regard to the TA's claim that they are unable to run the full G/R/V TPH due to a bottleneck at Forest Hills:
How was it done in the early to mid 70s, with EE, GG and N service?
The N replaced the EE in 1976, so there were only 2 locals. However, there is no reason why there couldn't be 3 lines there if the V would be extended to 179 as the local and the F stays on the express. It's just a lame excuse for laziness, if not ineptness.
Of course you are correct. The EE did replace the N.
I am curious about service levels on the Queens IND local back then.
In response to ItalianGuyinSI's question about service levels of the Queens Blvd Locals during the GG/N days that I can remember, here it is. In the AM rush approx 730A-830A, the N trains arrived every 4 mins. They alternated between Coney Island "N"'s and the rush Hr. "N"'s to Whitehall Street. They were packed all the way into Manhattan (Obviously!!), and the trains were predominantly made up of 8-car R-27-30 or 32 (occassionally r-46) consists. The GG's arrived about every 8-12 mins and emptied out at 74 St and Queens Plaza. Even passengers living east of 74 St used to wait for the "N" to try and get a seat all the way into Manhattan w/o transferring to the express E/F. I'm too young to remember the "EE" frequencies, but I assume that they ran at approx 4 min. headways during the height of the rush. And boy how nice it is to remember the BROADWAY EXPRESS SERVICE when the "N" was FAST and turned around at 57 ST!! I vaguely remember too many "QB" trains. There were probably 5 trains during the rush running at 10 minute headways!!! Tony
When the N was extended to 71/Continental in 1976, I remember the car assignments being mostly R46's. I'm not too sure about the Whitehall Street local service, but there may have been R27-30's in addition to the R-46's.
If you look at the pictures of this website, the N absorbed most of the EE fleet of R16's in 1976. Most remained operating out of Jamaica until the final retirement of the R7/R9 in early 1977.
According to the May 2001 New York ERA Division Bulletin, R16's 6300 through 6340 were transferred to the N on May 4, 1976, and were in service during rush hours. Considering the 8 car trains, there were 5 trains running.
I remember riding them a few times during school field trips and visits to the city. I don't remember seeing them after the August 29th, 1976 schedule change, when the N got all new R46's and the occasional R32 during rush hour.
I do remember seeing R16's still on the GG at this time. One time I transfered at Queens Plaza from the F, rode the GG down to Smith 9th, and got back on the same F that I got off at Queens Plaza.
Once the 16's disappeared from the GG, I think they all went over to the Eastern Division (J, LL), where they were run into the ground.
Since the extended N replaced the entire EE, I suppose the N needed more equipment allocated, and for it come from Jamaica, not Coney Island. That explains R16's on the N. Also, they were to be 5 Whitehall Street N's rush hours to replace the EE since all the other N's went over the bridge. The vestigal remains of it today are the several Astoria-Whitehall Street N's. Then the R16's went to the Eastern Divsion to replace the R6-R9's. It was at least the 6300's. I am not sure what happened to the 6400's. I have seen pictures of them in 1979 layed up in Rockaway Park in one of Grellers' books. They also got scrapped much sooner in the early 1980's, being the much-hated GE cars.
I believe the 6400's didn't make it past the summer of 83 - I remember seeing a string of them along the LIRR Bay Ridge branch near Linden Blvd.
At that point, the only time I saw an R16 was on the J or LL.
I had ridden on R16 RR and B trains as late as 1986, although they were rare sights on these lines.
By 1981, the only R-16's that I recall seeing in regular service were on the "LL" line (along with R-10's!!). There were a lot of "16"'s jsut sitting in the Fresh Pond Yard I remember. It wasn't until about 1983 that the R-16's were off the "LL" and strictly regulated to the "J" line (and every train was mismarked "JJ" or "QJ" since ther were no color "J" signs made). Before that, I remember the R-16's on the "EE" (those heaters under the seats that burned my fu--ing hand)!! That's it!!!!!! Tony
I saw the 16's on the J around Nov. '82 when a D was rerouted southbound through Essex & Nassau St. never knew such a thing existed, though I vaguely remembered from childhood seeing what looked like R-30's with transverse seats, but wasn't thinking about that at the time. I immediately noticed it at Broad by the sloping interior door panels, then ran across the car I was riding to look closer, and saw the seats and end doors (A BMT counterpart to the R-17, I had found!)
During the blizzard of '83 I saw one running on the M, which was all that was on the Brighton for a while.
It was in the mid '80s that I began seeing them on the L (often mixed), and when the D was running on Broadway, I would see them layed up at the Nassau Loop bumping blocks signed up as "RR".
My Sea Beach actually got something from the TA. What's the catch? What did they have to give up in exchange?
You mean the N replaced the EE. By the way, as I understand it,the original Broadway/Queens Blvd local letter code was something else before,[as planned with the route changes in 1967]what wasthe lines name to be? does anyone know?
Originally, it was to be "QB" (for "Queens-Broadway, as the old Q/QB/QT Bway-Brighton service was being totally eliminated). When it was decided to keep QB as a rush hour Bway-Brighton special, the Queens Broadway service was changed from "QB" to "QM" (Queens-Manhattan). Sometime after that, it was just decided to use "EE". I'm not sure why, though.
Originally, it was to be "QB" (for "Queens-Broadway, as the old Q/QB/QT Bway-Brighton service was being totally eliminated). When it was decided to keep QB as a rush hour Bway-Brighton special, the Queens Broadway service was changed from "QB" to "QM" (Queens-Manhattan). Sometime after that, it was just decided to use "EE". I'm not sure why, though.
No, actually it's a lame excuse for not having enough trainsets to get sufficient tph to make that a viable solution.
Dan
Why waste valuable resources running the G past Court Sq when nothing justifies it? Kudos to the TA for telling these whiners that they aren't gonna get their way.
Actually, with the new plan putting the "G" to Forest Hills at all other times than weekday middays and rush hours, it is an INCREASE of service.
Guess it works when your voices are loud and long. Well done to the protesters, for nothing should be accepted without compromise.
I believe the compromise is even worse than doing what the protesters want anyway.
I agree, IMO a waste of resources.
Arti
Here is the article, from Tuesday's News.
As has been posted, Toussaint is mistaken about the EE and N running together. He's also referring to a land long ago and far away, before the fleet slowdown.
[As has been posted, Toussaint is mistaken about the EE and N running together.]
By his position as TWU-100 president, he is in a position to know (and thus DOES know) that the EE and N never ran in Queens together. In other words, he isn't "mistaken" - he's flat-out LYING.
There, somebody finally said it.
BULLSHIT.
I say bullshit because you have absolutely no proof. I will bring this up at the next union meeting.
[...you have absolutely no proof.]
You weren't specific - "absolutely no proof" of what? Then again, let's figure it out by going back to what I originally said:
-----
1. By his position at TWU-100 president....
The union election made all of the newspapers, so I don't need to prove that he's the president.
-----
2. ...he is in a position to know (and therefore does know)....
Courts often deal with the issue of whether someone "knew or should have known" something, and have consistenty ruled that "should have known" (i.e. being in a position to know) and "knew" (i.e. actual knowledge) are legally equivalent. This usually crops up in cases of fraud.
The president of any organization has ready access to prior records, and thus is in a position to know what's in those records whether he/she looks at them or not.
-----
3. ...the EE and N never ran together on Queens Blvd....
Toussaint (or anyone else) had only to look at old subway maps, or check old RTO picks (since those operating positions were represented by TWU-100 at the time), or even visit nycsubway.org, to find the service patterns in question.
From November 1969 (?) to August 1976, the EE ran from Whitehall to Continental via local (weekdays only), while the N ran from Stillwell to 57th via Broadway Express and didn't touch Queens at all! In August 1976, the EE and N were combined into a single N route from Stillwell to Continental (with some Whitehall trips) via Queens local and variously Broadway local or express.
In other words, the N at one point REPLACED the EE in Queens, but never ran WITH the EE in Queens.
-----
To repeat, Toussant had ready access to all of this BEFORE writing his Op-Ed piece; whether he looked at it or not is irrelevant. His argument was NOT supported - and was actually REFUTED - by information to which he had direct access. Therefore, he was LYING.
There, I said it again.
All you've proven is that he was careless.
To be fair, the fact that a person has access to information and doesn't seek that information before he makes an incorrect statement, does not mean that he is lying. More appropriately:
He could be careless.
He could be incompetant.
He could not know the difference between fact and supposition.
He may be poorly advised.
One again, it's hard to know a person'd true intentions unless you really know the man. Do either of you know the man that well?
I happen to think that using the publics' lack of knowledge to further any organization's goals - is a very cynical practice.
[To be fair, the fact that a person has access to information and doesn't seek that information before he makes an incorrect statement does not mean that he is lying....]
Look at what happened to the big tobacco companies when they were found to have incriminating internal documents which refuted both their long-standing claims and their CEOs' Congressional testimony. Whether the executives had actually seen those documents is irrelevant; because the documents existed, the CEOs "should have known" about them, and thus were held liable for knowing and lying about them.
While Queens Blvd. subway service isn't of quite the same magnitude as the Big Tobacco issue, the same principle applies. Toussaint went on record, representing the union, with an accusation against Transit. Therefore, the burden of proving that accusation is on HIM, not on Transit. Not that this question will ever go to court, but any court would rule that Toussaint "should know" what's in the union's files, and thus DOES know, based on the simple fact that those files exist.
Absolutely. At this point, however, I think the new leadership of the TWU is trying to show that they are doing something other than the same 'stuff' the old guard did. To this point, without being specific, some of their forays have not had the desired results. Frankly, I think they are wrong about Queens Blvd. service and I think their efforts should be more member-centric. Do you think that Mr. Toussaint or his associates ever heard of Hertzberg or Maslow?
I doubt the flub was intentional; he probably relied on a somewhat faulty memory and put his article out without doing some simple fact-checking. Of course, citing the number of routes that run on a line is misleading, anyway, since it has nothing to do with the comboned tph of those routes.
Well Touissant's editorial isn't anything new. Even if the TA could assign enough people to handle switching duties (labor says yes; management says no), the fact is, the subway cars aren't there.
It doesn't matter whose fault it is. Until new subway cars come in, there's nothing the TA can do. End of discussion.
Touissant's piece, besides offering the standard labor diatribe (I'm not saying it's better or worse than management diatribe), helps by keeping the pressure up to increase the subway car fleet.
And, of course, it observes a proud New York tradition: Opinions are like like rear-ends - everyone has at least one, and each person thinks his (or hers) should be the only one.
Until new subway cars come in, there's nothing the TA can do.
They could have extended the G to Queens Plaza without requiring any additional cars or construction. There is at least one means that they could have reversed the cars in Queens Plaza without delaying any other services.
Of course such a solution would have required creative thinking on management's part and would not have required any additional managerial or union personnel to implement or operate. So it was a non-starter.
The EE and N never ran at the same time. The N replaced the EE in 1976.
As indicated in the other postings Roger Toussant has no idea about anything Transit. He is a political revolutionary from Haiti or one of the counties in that region where he spent jail time for trying to overthrow the government. All he done is found people who will listen to what he says and he tells them what he knows they want to hear. His biggest thing is supporting the local communities affected by service cuts. The people think he is their friend and he thinks that the community is behind him. Just wait until the latest contract is up for renewal, he will learn just how much NYC is behind him when he threatens a strike.
Anyway enough of my rant.
Since there have never, ever been 5 routes/lines operating on the Queens Blvd corridor in regular service at the same time I think the thought of it scares the hell of the TA's (so-called) engineers.
>>>>>>>>As indicated in the other postings Roger Toussant has no idea about anything Transit. He is a political revolutionary from Haiti or one of the counties in that region where he spent jail time for trying to overthrow the government. All he done is found people who will listen to what he says and he tells them what he knows they want to hear. His biggest thing is supporting the local communities affected by service cuts. The people think he is their friend and he thinks that the community is behind him. Just wait until the latest contract is up for renewal, he will learn just how much NYC is behind him when he threatens a strike.
Well if that isn't the biggest load of manure that I've seen in a long time.
Mr.Toussaint is the best thing to happen to the members of TWU-100 in a very long time. He's gotten the members involved and believing that things can be done to make Transit a better place to work. And he's not afraid to stand up to Transit whenever he disagrees with something. This man has been through the ringer more times than I could certainly go through that's for sure.
Overthrow the government? Please. He was a political activist while he was a student in Haiti. And if he was just trying to say things that people would hear, then why in the world would he get fired from Transit mainly because of his activism with New Directions?
As a passenger, you seem scared that he will cause a strike. Maybe he will. But he's also trying to look out for the daily ridership by fighting against service cuts and fighting for safety concerns. A contract comes up once every three years. Service cuts have a more lasting DAILY effect.
And if you are thinking that "He's just saying this to protect his members jobs", well that's what he's supposed to do. But all of the membership will still collect their paychecks as there is always enough work to go around.
So far Toussaint's actions have spoken a lot more than his words. I support Roger Toussaint 100%.
I've also found his personal support of the BOs so early in his tour of duty very interesting. At the "privates" he's been part of negotiations, vs. sending a underling, he even attended a recent retirement dinner at QSC with his lovely wife. As someone in management, maybe I would prefer he had stayed away, but I've found his envolvement very interesting in any case. I've also spoken with some of the TWU officials here & found out that he doesn't talk down to them ... it's not what I would have expected based on the yada yada yada surrounding the recent election. Have you heard that some of those who were on the "other" side are now in management ?
Mr t__:^)
>>>Have you heard that some of those who were on the "other" side are now in management ? <<<
Yes, and I've also heard that some from the other side, most noteworthy being Mr James, were "kicked upstairs" and now have jobs with the international. I do not know which is worse.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>Yes, and I've also heard that some from the other side, most noteworthy being Mr James, were "kicked upstairs" and now have jobs with the international
Correct except for Willie James. He has not received a position with the International. Mr. James and Sonny Hall (Intl.Pres.) do not get along.
But, then why do I see Willy James' listed as int'l vice-president on the "masthead" of the TWU paper.
Peace,
ANDEE
He was asked to resign the post. The Union is currently attempting to eradicate the former regime from their intl. posts. It made headlines in The Chief last week.
Even though they are still listed as Vice Presidents, it is in title only. No duties are assigned to them.
Yes I have heard. Could you imagine what could have happened if the old regime had stayed in power?
I'm sure that all the people that voted for James/Seda in the past are kicking themselves.
For obvious reasons I'd like to stay away from a discussion about whether Mr. Toussaint is good for the TWU membership or not, However, I wold like the your feelings about:
1) The results of the recent 'court' action that forced the C/Rs to pick over.
2) Roger Toussaint hiring people who have been fired from the TA for making racist comments & threats.
3) The fact that the TWU local 100 is involved in 'political' issues in North Carolina and Pennsylvania that have nothing to do with labor/management or job security.
On your first question it seems like he did the right thing. He challenged the TA in court and won. (That is what a union is supposed to do for it's members).
Unfortunatly this country is becoming so "polictally correct" that almost everything can be considered some sort of harrassment (racially or sexually or any other) but freedom of speech is a fundemental right in this country. As for people like that being in a position of some power I don't think they belong because most people of intelligence would not make those comments on the record. (we have all said some berating comments at one time or another)
As far as your third point I have no knowledge of such actions and can not and will not comment until further informed.
In a business enviornment both side have to conduct themselves in a particular way ... jokes about ones race, appearance are just as wrong as racist comments or threats. The "company" is leagaly bound to treat both seriously, and deal out the proper punishment/discipline.
When I worked of Pan Am any physical exchange between ANY two parties resulted in both being fired ... the company didn't care who threw the first punch or what provoked it ... PERIOD. Everybody knew that, so a little yelling might occur on the shop floor, but one would always walk away to save both their jobs.
The balance of power needs to be maintained for the syatem to work, so just because the TWU head is black doesn't mean that the black brothers & sister can get away with what ever they want. In the case sighted before maybe the previous TWU head didn't fight the case as hard as he should of, and maybe the incident didn't warrent the employee being fired. I see nothing wrong with a employee getting his/her job back for a wrongfull action on the part of the company.
Again sighting a Pan AM example ... if you screwed around with the time clock in any way or gave/sold you flight benifit to a non authorized family member ... you were fired ... PERIOD.
Mr t__:^)
well just keep all your praise in mind when the next contrg again.act comes up. At the first sign of trouble your "beloved" union president will
vanish leaving you all in the lurch.
Darn - I am ranting again. Just be glad bank employees are not permitted by Federal law to unionize. Imagine if we went on strike. We could shut the entire country down.
>>>>At the first sign of trouble your "beloved" union president will
vanish leaving you all in the lurch
We'll see by December 15, 2002. So far, he's doing the best job of any TWU leader in the past 15 years at least. For the first time since I was hired by the TA, the membership is visibly starting to build confidence in the union.
I DON'T want to strike, but I don't want to get stepped on by management either.
>>Just be glad bank employees are not permitted by federal law unionize. Imagine if we went on strike. We could shut the entire country down.<<
So are you saying that bank employees do not have rights? My mother works for a bank, and she gets treated like crap. At least with a union, she would have more rights. And one more thing, banks pay very cheap. Look at all of the mergers and layoffs that happen with banks. If banks get any bigger, then I think that the employees have every right to unionize in order to protect themselves.
>>> Just be glad bank employees are not permitted by Federal law to unionize. <<<
What law is that? I just did a quick search of Title 12 of the United States Code and was unable to find any such law.
Tom
The TA should have a site for their TO and CR's. So we can look up our work programs, timetables, supplements, bulletins or any GO's. Plus they should have a way for use to go to a site that we can put out pass number in and get our job numbers and RDO's. Where we can download all type of forms. This would make life so much easlier for us. Does anyone agree or am I just looking for to much from TA (RTO)
I agree. If institutes of higher learning are able to let students register for courses via telephone service, the TA should be able to introduce the same concept.The college I attend has a list of classes available on the internet along with the number of seats left in a particular section. The TA could post jobs that are open on each line, along with the number of RDO spots available(for example, as of 1425 hrs, 13 S/S RDO'S are left on the p.m. tour in the north section).They could apply this to every set of RDO's.
Just a thought that'll cheese some off, but since picks are a union thing, perhaps TWU 100 might want to pick up where the railroad left off ... in fact if the union were to provide this, I could see MTA wigs wanting to do it. Funny the things that motivate. :)
My friends sad that this would not be that hard to do. Everything is already on computer some were in the TA system. He sad that there are programe that will let us put our pass numbers and some sort of pass word in the out computer and got out jobs, the pay of the job and even the time the jobs leave each termals and more. If someone could just get all this info from the TA then it can be done. This also can be used for B/O and any other jobs that are time bast.
Robert
And the union going through that data would be JUST the kick in the slats to make RTO interested in doing it themselves. :)
I agree with you 100% but thats asking too much from TA. It would make our lives easier.
It would be nice if we where able to look at work programs for both Divisons at the terminals. This way you can decide if you want to change up.
I'm a C/R on the A Div. and I'm thinking about making a move to the B Div. because it would be a change for me. I am thinking about the A,C,B,D,and N Lines.
Heres a question for the B Div train crews.
What is the last line to go in the B Div. pick?
I was just watching channel 7 new and they show the car going to DC, it was not an R33wf. The car number was 9069. I guest most people won't know the different anyway.
Robert
9069? What? They divorced a married pair? @&$^!!!
Anyone know how the car in question is travelling to DC?
-Stef
By flatbed truck. Only the car body is being shipped and not the under-components.
Flatbed.
Once the festival is over, it sounds like the car is going to be retired. Other than that other set that may have been retired, it sounds like we have our first retirement.
9069 is an R33, but there is a picture in today's Daily News showing the car being shipped through upper Manhattan, and it's car 9056---an R33 Mainline. This is going to represent the Flushing Line???
A R33 from the 2 line. Well, soon to be ex R33 from the 2 line as the R33's are making their way back to the 5 line after a few years hiatus.
It is strange they did not choose an actual #7 car , a R36. When the Yankees had their parade last year, they used and actual R62 to run up Broaway.
Since the R33WF cars aren't used in the summer anyway due to lack of AC, why couldn't they just send one on holiday to DC and let all the others to their thing on the 7? Someone should protest this.
My mistake about not being an R33. I ment to say not and R33WF.
Robert
Here is another track question(my father asked one and i asking the other-thanking you guys for your help before)
1-the local tracks at the 168th Street station-they go upward after leaving the station Northbound-were they headed to GWB?
2-the tracks outside of Church Avenue on the "F" line towardss Coney Island-do the tracks going lower go anywhere?
3-the extra track outside the 4th Avenue station on the "F" line-any direction?
1) The tracks at 168 Street are relay tracks. The "C" uses them to put them from the north side platform to the south side platform.
2)The tracks doing lower gose into some layup tracks. The TA dose not use them for this any more. They do get used to trun trains around if something happened going to Coney Island.
3) I don't know.
Robert
1) Still, I did hear there was once an idea to extend them over the bridge, which ws built to accomodate them.
2) They are supposed to start using them to store some G trains, that is if they are still going to use Coney Island based equipment instead of Jamaica.
The lower level of the GWB was originally designed to carry subway trains.
No it wasn't.
The GWB was originally built with only one level, but with provisions to add a second level, potentially for rail use.
In fact, when the lower level was built, it was built to carry more cars and trucks, in conjunction with the Trans-Manhattan Expressway and the Alexander Hamilton Bridge.
I read somewhere that a subway connection was supposed to go to Jersey over the GWB, but the plans were changed by that lovable friend of highways, Robert Moses. The way that the tracks are configured at 168th St. station on the A seem to back this up. The local tracks, which at that station are in the middle instead of the outside and now used by the C, were supposed to go over the bridge, but that never came to light.
There were plans to possibly extend the IND over the GWB. I don't think they ever got beyond the "possibly" stage.
Robert Moses was very much behind the entire GWB lower level - Trans-Manhattan Expressway - Alexander Hamilton Bridge - Cross Bronx Expressway megaproject, and he certainly wasn't going to allow an idea for improved train service to get in the way of his highways. If anything, the GWB has too many lanes now.
The tracks switch places at 168th simply so the local can relay without interfering with the express. The north end of the Concourse line has a similar arrangement for the same reason. The IRT and BMT didn't bother with such shenanigans, and as a result they have expresses terminating before locals (D vs. Q, 3 vs. 4, 57th Street BMT local vs. express), etc. The IND arrangement is far superior.
"3-the extra track outside the 4th Avenue station on the "F" line-any direction?"
If you're talking about that track between 4th Ave and Smith-9th Sts, it goes under the structure and dead ends. Don't know it was built there, doesn't seem to be used.
Bill "Newkirk"
They used to store G trains there in the pocket track between 4th Avenue and Smith-9th Street.
These are all relay tracks that can be used to turn back a train.
Look for the track maps section of the main nycsubway.org site.
You'll find all the diagrams you need there.
2- that is a great lay up to hang around. I will be giving a Jinx related tour of that lay up. E-mail if interested.
1. These tracks do serve as relay tracks for the C (and sometimes the A and B during G.O.s), but they extend further north to an area known as 174th Yard where some R32/R38 C trains are stored.
2. These are also relay tracks that can be used to turn trains (most notably, the G comes here when it cannot relay at Fourth Avenue due to a G.O.), but they also extend to an area (Church Avenue Yard) where up to four trains can be stored.
3. This track descends below the other four tracks and dead ends with a bumper block at the end of the track. It is considered a spur track and is used to turn trains in cases of extreme emergencies only.
Spiffy! You'll be up front b4 ya know it.
I'm still waiting, Z. My wildest dream is to be given a nice shiny chrome brake handle, reverser, and cutting key and take my place up at the front. Then I wake up and reality sets in. Time to move it to the middle. :-)
By the way, my Sunday train operator is still having nightmares from the last time you were at Euclid. Maybe you could come back soon and finish the job you started at the dominoes table. LOL
>>>>My wildest dream is to be given a nice shiny chrome brake handle, reverser, and cutting key and take my place up at the front.
Pieces of paper with pictures of Hamilton & Jackson may help your dream come true (hint-hint-nudge-nudge).
And I really do not mind administering frequent beatings on the domino table. That game where we jumped all over him and he was only able to get off his first bone was a classic.
Hope to be back soon, definitely at the start of next pick at the latest.
I'm looking forward to seeing you, my friend. I'm going to try and hold it down 'til you get here. :-)
I've seen maps where there was a projected Fort Hamilton Parkway line branching southwest from the IND at Church Avenue. I'd always assumed that the Church Layups were for that, or some other "second-system" venture.
This might have been before unification and recapture was in full gear. That may have been done if unification didn't come about, and the money was there.
I am guessing your map is dated 1929-1932.
It's actually the inside back cover of "the Subway"
If only it were true!
OH, this book I know very well.
If we did not have the Depression, I believe we would have had an excellent SECOND IND system in addition to the original IND.
Shame.
Much of it was wasteful anway. Only certain lines would've actually brought subway service to areas which had never seen it, like southeastern Queens, Maspeth/Glendale, southeastern Brooklyn in addition to another east side trunk line.
I just made this track map (PDF format) of the City Subway Extension from Branch Brook park (Franklin Ave) to the new facility. CSX (ex EL) actually crosses on and over the subway tracks in order to get past them. The freight train route merges onto the northbound subway tracks up around Franklin Ave. and travels along those tracks to where the Spring Lake Station is and then crosses over to the southbound subway tracks. It travels along those up until after Bloomfield Ave. and it enters the facility property. There the freight line splits from the subway and goes along its merry way west. Check out the map!
Newark City Subway Extension Track Map
(Adobe Acrobat Reader required)
--------------------
-Dan
New York Area Railroads
--------------------
That's a great map Dan, thanks for posting it.
-Dave
NJ Transit's Website indicates that this extension is not in service yet. When will service begin on the extension?
Rumors abound. NJT's missed several target dates already. It seems that they aren't opening the extension until they retire the PCCs. Of course they can't retire the PCCs yet because the replacements have cab signaling, which requires wayside equipment that has to be installed from one end of the route to the other.
The new trains could simply run without cab signalling until the system is installed.
And they can't open the extension until the new equipment is used, since the PCCs need a loop and the new terminal will not have one.
Good point about the lack of a loop. If it's not the cab signals they're waiting on, have you heard any other explanation for not switching over to the new cars?
I just made this track map (PDF format) of the City Subway Extension from Branch Brook park (Franklin Ave) to the new facility. CSX (ex EL) actually crosses on and over the subway tracks in order to get past them. The freight train route merges onto the northbound subway tracks up around Franklin Ave. and travels along those tracks to where the Spring Lake Station is and then crosses over to the southbound subway tracks. It travels along those up until after Bloomfield Ave. and it enters the facility property. There the freight line splits from the subway and goes along its merry way west. Check out the map!
Does the shared trackage mean that the City Subway cars have to meet FRA standards?
[Does the shared trackage mean that the City Subway cars have to meet FRA standards?]
As you may have seen, although CSX uses subway tracks, the route does not pass next to any station. the Interlocking between the two tracks at spring lake are situated such that the station platforms are avoided. For some reason, this allows the city subway not to come under FRA regulations.
-Dan
IIRC, the Newark City Subway is not a 24/7 operation. It has "always" closed down for a few hours every night. I believe that time separation between freight use and LRV use is the factor that allows this connection
The subway doesn't cross Bloomfield Ave where you have it, thats Belmont Ave, sorry to nitpick.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The Subway doesn't cross Bloomfield Avenue at all, does it?
Yes it does, just not there (as far as I know from I know from I know mass transit).
Well if you want to be technical of course it does, just under it at the Bloomfield Ave. Subway Station.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
You're right. I was thinking about the area of the extension and forgot about the part of Bloomfield nearer Branch Brook Park.
No problem with the street name, I have to change the map anyway. Where I noted as "Spring Lake Sta." is really "Silver Lake Sta.". I made this on Adobe Illustrator on a computer in school, so I'll post a new version soon.
-Dan
To all those I promised the car assignment matrix:
I've had a melt-down of my scanner. Actually the SCSI card went bad. I finally got a new one today but will likely not have a chance to install it until I return from AMERICADE. I will send them out ASAP.
TD
No sweat TD. Thanks for putting forth the effort to give everybody the assignments.
Have a blast ... the weather's going to be dandy up in Lake George this year ... you'll be blowing right past Voorheesville when the Thruway becomes the Oliver Northway at exit 25 ...
Makes me wish I'd never ditched the Norton Commando 850 years ago ...
You mean exit 24, at the Thruway interchange,right? Exit 25 is Interstate 890,Route 146 and Route 7. 24 is where the Thruway changes,from I 87 north to I 90 west,and of course the Northway going [where else?] north. HAVE A NICE TRIP AND ENJOY YOUR SELF T.D.
Perhaps you can answer my one question. With the split service overlapping, doesn't the TA require more cars? You'll have two sets of express trains from 3th Street to 59th rather than one, plus more trains waiting to turn around.
If so, where are the cars coming from?
Thanks Train Dude. Take your time.
Why is it that Pantographs don't work with With trolley wire?
By definition, pans are used on catenary or as they say in Europe, the overhead line. Modern catenary is constant-tension, wheras trolley wire is variable tension. Pans theoretically will work with trolley wire, but it is very inefficient. At speed, pans will most likely lose contact with and tear down trolley wire.
There's another reason. Pantographs cannot be used with standard hangers used for trolley pole operations. The hangers protrude below the span wire, particularly on curves.
DaWheelFlange is partially incorrect about variable and constant tension on trolley wire. Pans are used on both. The PRR/NH/Amtrak catenary is constant tension. The extension to Boston is modern variable tension catenary. The Baltimore Light Rail uses variable tension everywhere except the portion between North Avenue and Camden Yards, when constant tension catenary is used.
The MBTA ran pantographs and trolley poles on the same wire. SF Muni still does. The only things that have to be done is that adapters have to be used with trolley frogs that carry the pans below the frog and allow poles to track as usual and the wire must be tight, with no sags that could possibly sang a pan.
Another difference is trolley wire is generally strung over the centerline of the track, where catenary will zigzag slightly left to right over the tracks. This is so the pan contacts will wear evenly. If you ran a pan over conventional wire over a fairly short period, the contacts will have a nice groove machined into them.
How does variable tension work? The catenary on the extension is
counterweighted. Doesn't that produce constant tension>
The reason pantographs dont work on trolley wire is
more the engineering of the way trolley wire and catenary wire are "strung"
TROLLEY WIRE Carrying the power voltage (usually
600 volts DC) is Hung from the "span" wire
(the wire crossing the trackway from pole to pole
and insulated by insulators from the trolley "hot'
WIRE - by what are called 'WIRE EARS' or "hangers"
which look like a plus ( + ) sign; The "span"
wires connect to the "ears' of the hanger like the
dashlines I drew connect to the plus sign - see
here>>> H--------+----------H The POLES are are shown by those two letters "H" and the top of the trolley wire contacts the bottom of the hanger (+) at the center. I HOPE THIS DOESNT GET SCRAMBLED when I post it as some type lines do!! The space between the trolley HOT wire and the cross (SPAN) wire is very shallow due to the "Hanger" casting size - and on curves - especially sharp curves - trolley wire is not centered between the rails as on straight track, but moved closer to the inside rail of the curve to compensate for pole lean and swing - and a pantograph shoe's ability to tilt up and down from left to right - and riding very off center on the curved trolley wire - could have one of its shoe edges actually snag the cross (SPAN) wires and - you guessed it, tear the overhead down and mangle the
pantograph upright assembly
That is why catenary is strung differently - mainly for very high speed and designed to carry high voltages (3000 + volts) over very long distances - and to provide much more clearance for the widthh of the pantograph contact shoe to clear the Trolley (Hot) wire hanger asembly. Catenary systems have a "messenger" above and following the hot wire in the
same line see here on this illustration MESSENGER----+----------------+----WIRE(S)
CATENARY____T__________T____WIRE(S)
PANTOGRAPH SHOE T (rides under wire here)
The above view is looking broadside across the track
with the + signs showing the hanger ear with the
messenger wire attached and the letter T immediately
below the + sign represents the connection bar/bracket connecting the hanger (+) to top of the
hot catenary (trolley) wire to keep the trolley hot
wire in constant alignment, tension & position
with its means of anchorage to lineside poles - the
messenger or structural-supporting link-(wire).
The letter "T" at the center of the drawing represents the side view of the PANTOGRAPH sliding
along the hot (power) wire. SUMMARY - the pantograph shoe slides along the catenary wire far below the above cross (span) wires where they attach to the messneger wire "hanger ears" - and that allows for off-center wire spacing on sharp curves
whch will allow the pantograph plenty of oscillation
movement and freedom from being fouled by cross-span wire construction and hardware. By the way. the
support poles for the illustration above are not shown, but would be on each side of the track(s) in
line with each + (sign) on the messenger wire - the
lineside poles being connected to each other obviously by the cross (span) wires from which the
messenger and its tethered trolley (hot) wire are
hung. Hope this answers your question(s) - I tried to make it simple enough with the illustrations.
NOTE: Trolley POLES will work on forms of what is
called "light catenary" construction as used on the
North Shore and LVT interburban high-speed intercity
"trolley pole" operated lines - at some locations on
their various routes!!
Regards - Joseph Frank - NYCMTS EL
Actually, that doesn't answer my question at all! I was merely
asking about the difference between constant and variable tension
catenary systems. I am very familiar with how trolley wire is
hung as I've done some of that, at 1:1 scale.
OK Jeff - I will lookup my prototype data sheets on Pennsy and New Haven catenary and also trolley wire
applications to see what is related to maintaining
constant tension as well as variables for severe
weather (cold and hot) weather temperatures - give me a few days to dig it out of my archives in the catecombs -I know tha pantographs need the stiff
double-hung wire per my bottom illustration (previous post) because pantographs exhert more upward pressure than trolley poles and also
the contact plate - shoe is subject to air-foil
wind effects (like a small airplane wing) that can
increase upward pressure to the wire at very high
running speeds and conversely extreme high winds
facing the (blowing toward) the pantograph as it
operatesinto the high winds at speed has been known
to cause pantograph to depress and rise (flutter
uo OR down (ie bounce) off and on the wire.
Trolley wire by nature is more slack re; ear to ear tension (pole to pole span wires and span to span
-wire over the tracks) - and warmer weather causes some noticeable sags (in Phily anyway - we see it all the time on steetcar routes) and the t-pole actually pushes the wire UPWARD at the low
-sag-points between span wires. Pantographs operating under those "soft" wire conditions as you well know -would have more drastic effects than a simple wire-guided trolley pole wheel or carbon shoe
Your vague question as posed doesnt explain why you
want to know - so it is uncertain as to answer your
question as to what you need to know - if I can help - get back to me - Regards - JOE F
PS in l:l scale did you do work on museum overhead, or prototype transit or mainline railroad wire?
Oh so the wire will snap so that's why they need to modify the wire!
They do:
Hey thats a double arm Pantograph Not a trolley pole!
[Hey thats a double arm Pantograph Not a trolley pole! ]
Does this answer your question?
Arti
>>> Hey thats a double arm Pantograph Not a trolley pole! <<<
Keen observation. Nothing gets by you!
Tom
Don't The SEPTA Suburban K-cars use regular trolley wire, and aren't they fitted with pantographs? I guess that would be an anomoly.
When the K-cars were first recieved and we in the testing and inital revenue operation phase they were in mixed service with the older equipment. The wire was slightly modified for the pans, with adapters on the trolley frogs, but other than selective tightening of the trollley wire nothing was done. Once all the K-cars were received, the wire was re-hung for pans only. Since 1982 all the overhead has been totally replaced.
But they can. The best example of this is in Russia, where trolley poles were never used in over 100 years of operation. The overhead system in Moscow, for example, is a mix of catenary (variable tension), and some trolley wire. The streetcars use pantographs (full ones as :<>, which are more rigid than the half-pantographs used in the US: <).
This same idea can also be seen on the HBLR, on the street-running portion on essex street, where ther is only one wire per track. The main problem with trolley wire is the clearances around the hangers, which are all right for poles but not for pantographs.
The rebuilt turboliner that appeared in Milwaukee last month was in Rensselear yesterday waiting for a trip back to Super Steel Schenectady for additional work. Start-of-service date is now pushed back to July.
Story in Wednesday's Times Union
How aboud they forget about the turboliners and create Talgoliners.
Why not just stop trying to persue a dead end technology and finally get on with mainline electrification, which has a proven record of sucess. Gas turbines aren't made or suited for rail pplications. It's that simple.
Gas turbines aren't made or suited for rail pplications.
Why not?
IIRC, The original Turboliners were French RTG units.
They were successful in France and the technology
was applied to the very first TGV experimental unit.
That original Gas turbine TGV marked speeds over 300kph
and itself was a success. I think it was the cost of fuel
that eventually lead to go back to electricity.
Maybe this is not what Philip meant, though...
That may have been true in the 1950's. You may recall Krause-Maffei's gas turbine locomotive, which proved a headache to maintain due to the turbine blades' fouling by the fuel used: Bunker-C oil.
Perhaps you could look at this with more of an open mind. The M-1 battle tank proved gas turbines can be highly successful even under difficult conditions (like desert sand and heavy smoke). Granted, the Army had more intense maintenance on these vehicles at the time. But 1,900 went into battle, driving across the sand at 50 mph, with an extremely low breakdown rate (single digit percentages at most).
The tweaking Amtrak has had to do sounds no worse (and probably better) than the work that Acela needed. Further, if you read the article closely, you could reasonably conclude that the delays are mostly political, not technical. CSX is gumming up the work more than the locomotives, and by the time CSX comes around, the locos will be ready.
/*That may have been true in the 1950's. You may recall Krause-Maffei's gas turbine locomotive, which proved a headache to maintain due to the turbine blades' fouling by the fuel used: Bunker-C oil.*/
The UP turbines were semi sucessful, but their turbine design was very inefficient.
/*Perhaps you could look at this with more of an open mind. The M-1 battle tank proved gas turbines can be highly successful even under difficult conditions (like desert sand and heavy smoke). Granted, the Army had more intense maintenance on these vehicles at the time.*/
Millitary applications are very different from comercial. In the millitary, you have, and can afford to have, maintenance staff tending over stuff 24/7. Not to mention fuel consumprion is a non issue.
/*But 1,900 went into battle, driving across the sand at 50 mph, with an extremely low breakdown rate (single digit percentages at most). */
But tanks aren't trains. Also see above.
/*The tweaking Amtrak has had to do sounds no worse (and probably better) than the work that Acela needed.*/
The work Acela needed needed wasn't tweaking, it was major. But excepted from the excessive weight of the equipment.
Gas turbines are fragile things that don't like high vibration high dirt environments. They suck fuel all the time, and are a bear to maintain. Amtrak simply doesn't have the ability to maintain them. They're not like diesels where you can wack things with a hammer and "make it work". Ingestion of dirt will corrode the compressor blades, rocks will *destroy* them, overspeeding from a suddenly dropped load can destroy an engine, the broad band virbration of railcars will kill most turbines (Pratt had huge problems shipping aircraft engines by rail because of this). And rebuilds aren't cheap.
Gas turbines have never seen widespread rail use because they're simply not suited for it. Once cost of maintenance, fuel use, noise, exhaust temperature, etc get factored in, they're not worth it. Sure they're high power low weight. So is electrification, and electrification is much more proven.
I don't understand the Dot's facsination with gas turbines.
"Gas turbines are fragile things that don't like high vibration high dirt environments. They suck fuel all the time, and are a bear to maintain."
Companies like GE and Lycoming have made huge strides in increasing reliability. I don't know what's under the hoods of the new locos in Albany, so I can't make a comparison.
" Amtrak simply doesn't have the ability to maintain them."
That's a reasonable fear. Amtrak must decide to devote, and have the resources to devote, enough attention to this to make it work.
"They're not like diesels where you can wack things with a hammer and "make it work". Ingestion of dirt will corrode the compressor blades, rocks will *destroy* them, overspeeding from a suddenly dropped load can destroy an engine, the broad band virbration of railcars will kill most turbines (Pratt had huge problems shipping aircraft engines by rail because of this). And rebuilds aren't cheap."
In fairness, we need to update you on the latest in turbine technology. GE, for example, now molds turbine blades using a highly corrosion resistant steel alloy. Further, the blades are "grown" in the mold, each forming a single crystal. That means no fissures or other physical imperfections. That kind of turbine can run for years without a problem, and can take abuse you would not expect the average jet engine to take.
I favor electrification too, by the way. I think it wins hands down, because all of the locomotive is devoted to traction. A diesel engine is dead weight that the loco has to haul along with the cars (of course something has to spin the generator, now, doesn't it?). But I am not opposed to a fair trial of turbo-trains, because of a) the advances in gas turbine design I have described b) political obstacles which may prevent use of electrified lines to Albany.
The best a diesel can do is about 100 mph - not bad, but hauling a string of cars that's going to eat gas, too, if only because it's fighting wind resistance. I want to see what happens when a loco with a much higher power-to-weight ratio gets a chance. It's worth a trial.
/*Companies like GE and Lycoming have made huge strides in increasing reliability. I don't know what's under the hoods of the new locos in Albany, so I can't make a comparison. */
Likely either a Pratt Canada, GE, or Allied, or other small turboshaft. There are a few turboshaft makers. As far as reliability, an aviation environment is *much* different from a rail one.
/*That's a reasonable fear. Amtrak must decide to devote, and have the resources to devote, enough attention to this to make it work. */
It's going to take either imported helicopter mechanics, or a hell of a trainning program to get amtrak up to speed on turbine maintenance. Or subcontracting it out. but that's messy too.
/*In fairness, we need to update you on the latest in turbine technology. GE, for example, now molds turbine blades using a highly corrosion resistant steel alloy.*/
Steel alloy turbine blades are acient tech. Today it's nickel alloys with air cooling holes and ceramic thermal barrier coatings. Turbine discs might still be steel, but the blades aren't in most mid/high thurst engines.
/* Further, the blades are "grown" in the mold, each forming a single crystal. That means no fissures or other physical imperfections.*/
Single crystal growth isn't cheap, and it's not perfect. The defect that caused the engine on the Sioux City DC-10 to come apart was ultimately believed to be exiting from the date of manufacture.
Gas turbine engines are mondo expensive, period.
/* That kind of turbine can run for years without a problem, and can take abuse you would not expect the average jet engine to take. */
Most modern jet engines run with their turbine blades exposed to temperatures above the first phase change of the blade material, and rely on barrier coatings and air cooling to keep the blades from deforming. FOD ingestion is *still* a problem, compressor blade errosion *still* occurs, and engine *still* fail.
Further, the cutting edge in turbines is naturally very expensive. And hasn't really trickled down to the turboshaft world. GE and Pratt put their development into millitary (Pratt) and higher thrust comercial (GE), because that's where the $$$ is.
Anyway, most of the big advances happened decades ago. I don't think the reliability of an aircraft adapted turboshaft in a railcar is going to be much higher today, and it's fuel consumption is going to be barely better. And the issues of noise, exhaust heat, safety, and operational failure still exist.
/*But I am not opposed to a fair trial of turbo-trains, because of a) the advances in gas turbine design I have described */
Turbines have gotten numerous fair trials, and every time they've come up empty handed. They don't work for rail applications. This is plainly obvious to everyone but the US DOT, FRA and amtrak.
/*b) political obstacles which may prevent use of electrified lines to Albany. */
The big obsticale to electrification, IMHO, is the FRA's unwillingness to admit that it's the best system for HSR, and can all the worthless diesel and turbine experiments.
/*The best a diesel can do is about 100 mph - not bad, but hauling a string of cars that's going to eat gas, too,*/
US style diesels are still stuck in the 50's, compaired to modern ones overseas, which are lighter. But then, the passenger cars that US diesels haul are stuck with an 1800's style body riding on 30's vintage trucks, with 50's vintage costruction, 70's vintage interiors, and 80's vintage operating attitudes.
/*I want to see what happens when a loco with a much higher power-to-weight ratio gets a chance.*/
You get an AEM-7, which still has the highest power - weight ratio in the US I believe.
As I said before, I prefer electric over other means for rail, and you're right, the AEM-7 is head and shoulders above the other units. Of course, when all the power generation is taken care of for the loco, all the loco has to do is apply it to the rail - makes sense.
Some of your arguments about FRA may be justified. However, in fairness, I should point out to you that American trains are safer than European trains. You may not like FRA, but it is because of FRA standards that an Acela crash will result in mostly minor injuries, with some serious and the possibility of a fatality or two; try the same crash on a European high-speed train and you're going to be bringing it body bags by the truckload. Part of the reason for that is the lighter weight of European trains. I'm not willing to sacrifice safety margins like that; with our litigious society, Amtrak would be foolish to contemplate it.
As far as gas turbines go: Thank you for updating me on some technology!
The failure of a turbine component that you cite is unfortunate. But remember that that was one case. The rate of failure of turbines in commercial aircraft use is so low that the manufacturing approach has clearly and unequivocally been an outstanding success. Also,please note the correct use of "single crystal" technology includes discarding any blade which comes out of the factory with any kind of defect. If it isn't perfect, you toss it and get another one.
I don't know that you can point to the FRA as the root of the problem. You are aware, I'm sure, of how NIMBY rears its ugly head whenever a railroad wants to put up catenary wire. That is likely to be a factor here, as it would anywhere else (I'm not condoning it, mind you). But, the fact is, whatever the political situation is, you still have to deal with it. If you can't electrify Albany-NY in the near future (and you can't), you try something else. Amtrak is doing that.
In the meantime, if you are affected by this decision, because you or your pals use the train or want to use it, you can write to your elected officials, to Amtrak, to the FRA, and voice your opinions on the subject. Undoubtedly you will learn more about their positions if you do so, and can then decide how next to proceed about persuading them to change.
/*As I said before, I prefer electric over other means for rail, and you're right, the AEM-7 is head and shoulders above the other units. Of course, when all the power generation is taken care of for the loco, all the loco has to do is apply it to the rail - makes sense. */
And in HSR, power:weight is all that matters. You don't get points for where it comes from. There are no 6000 (rail) hp diesels in the world, and none that weigh 80 tons.
/*Some of your arguments about FRA may be justified. However, in fairness, I should point out to you that American trains are safer than European trains.*/
How so? AFAIK, the accident rates for the US and Europe are almost identical. the difference is, their equipment is an order of magnitude cheaper to buy and run.
/*( You may not like FRA, but it is because of FRA standards that an Acela crsh will result in mostly minor injuries, with some serious and the possibility of a fatality or two; try the same crash on a European high-speed train and you're going to be bringing it body bags by the truckload.*/
That's entirely based on computer models and guesswork. according to computer models and guess work, the Leaning Tower of Piza should have fallen over years ago (it disn't), Miami have below standard air (it doesn't), Oxygen tanks on the Apollo misasions shouldn't have blown up (they did), the DC-10 shouldn't crash so much (it does), the 737's rudders are perfect (they aren't)
In more than one math book I've seen, one statement is useually bolded and sepperate from everthing else:
A computer model is not reality
In other words, it's a fart in the wind guess. Only an identical side by side test between two designs will show the worth of them, and such testing wasn't done with Acela, or they never would have gone with an overweight articulated design.
/*Part of the reason for that is the lighter weight of European trains. I'm not willing to sacrifice safety margins like that; with our litigious society, Amtrak would be foolish to contemplate it. */
And yet the run the Talgos, which are perhaps the lightest trans in use anywhere. Light weight means nothing about strength - there are plenty of light structures that are more than strong (take your average airliner).
/*As far as gas turbines go: Thank you for updating me on some technology! */
I could have gone on a bit more. Almost nobody uses steel in gas turbines of any real size anymore.
/*The failure of a turbine component that you cite is unfortunate. But remember that that was one case. The rate of failure of turbines in commercial aircraft use is so low that the manufacturing approach has clearly and unequivocally been an outstanding success. Also,please note the correct use of "single crystal" technology includes discarding any blade which comes out of the factory with any kind of defect. If it isn't perfect, you toss it and get another one. */
Which pushes the cost up. Also, there are certain things you're not going to find with NDT. Aircraft engines are amazingly reliable because *everything* is tracked, right back to the alloy's maker. The FRA doesn't require that, and raileroads noe rail equipment makers don't have the capacity to do that. Not to mention it's mondo expensive.
/*I don't know that you can point to the FRA as the root of the problem. */
Since they've been trying to avoid the issue of mailine electrification since the 60's, yeah, it's not a bad idea to finger them.
/* If you can't electrify Albany-NY in the near future (and you can't), you try something else. Amtrak is doing that. */
But their answer is much like trying to replace a dead light bulb with another dead one and expecting the lights to work.
/*In the meantime, if you are affected by this decision, because you or your pals use the train or want to use it, you can write to your elected officials, to Amtrak, to the FRA, and voice your opinions on the subject. Undoubtedly you will learn more about their positions if you do so, and can then decide how next to proceed about persuading them to change.*/
I don't think Amtrak really gives a crap about what potential/current customers think. Their customer service has basically sucked for years. Not to mention, they have this insane love for long distance trains, which are plain loosers.
Amtrak's not going to be around in another 1 or 2 years anyway.
/*Some of your arguments about FRA may be justified. However, in fairness, I should point out to you that American trains are safer than European trains.*/
"How so? AFAIK, the accident rates for the US and Europe are almost identical. the difference is, their equipment is an order of magnitude cheaper to buy and run."
The accident rate may be identical, but the death rate is not. The most recent BritRail crash, for example, caused far more injuries and death than a similar crash would have in the US. This not theoretical; this is not guesswork. This is about real dead bodies. The BritRail train derailed hitting a car. An Acela would have cut the car in half and kept going. The difference is weight. The car occupants are going to be dead either way; might as well protect the train passengers as best you can. And FRA does a better job of that than anyone in Europe.
/*( You may not like FRA, but it is because of FRA standards that an Acela crsh will result in mostly minor injuries, with some serious and the possibility of a fatality or two; try the same crash on a European high-speed train and you're going to be bringing it body bags by the truckload.*/
"That's entirely based on computer models and guesswork."
Wrong. This is real stuff, not theory, and there are actual high-speed rail crashes to prove it. D-B, SNCF and BritRail have all suffered them, with death occurring at far higher rates than Amtrak.
(one example given above).
I've noticed you don't like computer models. What you've missed is, though, that while individual cases (like the 737 rudder) provide examples where the computer model may not have predicted reality, overall, they do a very good job. You always have to watch for "outliers," it's true, and you don't always know where you'll find them. But that doesn't invalidate the entire approach. To do that is simple ignorance.
/*In the meantime, if you are affected by this decision, because you or your pals use the train or want to use it, you can write to your elected officials, to Amtrak, to the FRA, and voice your opinions on the subject. Undoubtedly you will learn more about their positions if you do so, and can then decide how next to proceed about persuading them to change.*/
"I don't think Amtrak really gives a crap about what potential/current customers think. Their customer service has basically sucked for years. Not to mention, they have this insane love for long distance trains, which are plain loosers."
Ultimately, that attitude will reflect more on you than the people you criticize - because you offer nothing constructive as you throw rocks. That's perfectly OK, of course- if you can't vent and whine on Subtalk, where can you? But understand that that's how it looks to me.
/*Wrong. This is real stuff, not theory, and there are actual high-speed rail crashes to prove it.*/
Such as the few TGV derailmentsd at speed where nobody got killed? Or the TGV hitting loaded trucks or paving equipment at 80mph and nobody getting killed?
You're right - the overweght tank approach to rail equipment is better - witness the spectacular performance of the Superliners on the City of new Orleans. Hey, only 11 people got killed, right?
/* D-B, SNCF and BritRail have all suffered them, with death occurring at far higher rates than Amtrak. */
The ICE accident was hitting a bridge. Surely, you don't expect an Acela or it's contents to survive going from 150mph to 0 in a few feet, do you? SNCF has not had any major accidents on the TGV, and the British rail system, well, who knows. Maybe freaks, might be British design.
/*I've noticed you don't like computer models.*/
Not really. They're great fun to look at and impress managers, but they're only as smart as the idiot working the computer.
/* What you've missed is, though, that while individual cases (like the 737 rudder) provide examples where the computer model may not have predicted reality, overall, they do a very good job.*/
Only is the people working the computers actually *think* about the results, first. I'm more concerened about the "the computer is always right' syndrome, which can and does lead to big problems.
/* You always have to watch for "outliers," it's true, and you don't always know where you'll find them. But that doesn't invalidate the entire approach. To do that is simple ignorance. */
To do anything based on a computer model, with no real logic or database to back it up, is for most cases, stupid.
/*The accident rate may be identical, but the death rate is not. The most recent BritRail crash, for example, caused far more injuries and death than a similar crash would have in the US.*/
How so? I'm not aware of any accident in the US where a train derailled, hit a loaded freight, and cars ended up in the weeds, etc.
/*An Acela would have cut the car in half and kept going.*/
Proof? Has the Acela ever hit a car at 125mph? Was this tested by the FRA? M-1s have wacked cars at high speeds and not derailed, and they're light weight even by European standards. But Budd apparently knew what they were doing in terms of design - they've proven a remarkeably safe design, despite light weight.
/* The difference is weight.*/
No it isn't. It's body strength, where engery goes in a crash, and a lot of dynamics.
/* The car occupants are going to be dead either way; might as well protect the train passengers as best you can. And FRA does a better job of that than anyone in Europe*/
You still don't have any hard evidence that US rail equipment design is any better than European. But it is documented that such equipment is more expensive to purchase. And heavy equipment riding on 50 year old truck designs are known to be dammaging to track, more so than modern equipment. And high axle loads are known to be bad for track, roadbed, and maintenance of way in general.
The last fact is documented in any RR engineering book, the first is documented by any decent review of euro vs US rail equipment purchases, and the middle is probbably documented by research somewhere.
The only way to test a design for grade crossing accident safety is, not surprisingly, to wack a few cars under controlled conditions.
"The ICE accident was hitting a bridge. Surely, you don't expect an Acela or it's contents to survive going from 150mph to 0 in a few feet, do you?"
I expect that a properly designed train will absorb more of the energy as it hits the obstacle. Thus, as the accident unfolds, even if some die, others will survive due to that factor. The FRA doesn't take its standards out of thin air (but some of your rock-throwing sounds like it comes from there). Estimates of additional cost to passenger rail cars have been around a few thousand dollars per car. Not a bad deal.
"Proof? Has the Acela ever hit a car at 125mph? Was this tested by the FRA?"
The Acela locomotive is designed to hold onto the track at well over 100 mph even on curves. The locomotive does not tilt, unlike the cars. That speaks plenty to its stability.
As to the FRA tests, I haven't read up on them. Have you?
" M-1s have wacked cars at high speeds and not derailed, and they're light weight even by European standards. But Budd apparently knew what they were doing in terms of design - they've proven a remarkeably safe design, despite light weight."
Budd did build a nice set of trains, and I am impressed by the longevity and good service of the M-1 - of course, I don't know what would happen at 125, since they're not designed to go that fast. Budd did design the Metroliner MU's , which had a very respectable service record, considering the problems overcome. Of course some posters here think they're failures because they didn't reach 150mph, only 110...
SNCF has not had any major accidents on the TGV, and the British rail system, well, who knows. Maybe freaks, might be British design.
Or maybe a design engineer who thinks the way you do.:0)
Seriously, though, BritRail crashes have cost over 100 lives since 1988. Miniscule compared to auto accidents, so I wouldn't hesitate to hop on a train. But there are some things they could be doing better.
IIRC, in the case of the UK train hitting that car that fell onto the tracks, part of the reason for the death toll was that the locomotive was pushing from the back of the train, which was being operated from a cab car.
I know that NJT is big on push-pull operations. How about LIRR, Amtrak?
I know that NJT is big on push-pull operations. How about LIRR, Amtrak?
SEPTA, MARC, and VRE do it, too.
Amtrak's San Diegan (or whatever the train now called) does it, and I believe the Regional Transportation Authority (METRA) does it too.
"I believe the Regional Transportation Authority (METRA) does it too."
Yes, all non-electric trains on Metra are push-pull, with the engine on the end facing away from downtown. And there are a lot of grade crossings -- and a lot of grade crossing collisions -- on the Metra system. I would imagine a good number of those collisions happen when the cab car is on the front of the train. And yet the Metra train always comes out the winner and there's *never* been an outcry for operating the trains with a loco on each end.
If you can't electrify Albany-NY in the near future (and you can't), you try something else.
Hey guy ... give us a chance to get the flush toilets hooked up FIRST, eh? :)
OK. But can't you just bail? It's good for sculling practice :0) (I hope I spelled that kind of boat racing correctly)
Heh. Nah, we got tired of shovelling ... and since we're kinda inland I'm not certain of the spelling there either. But yeah, indoor plumbing! WooHoo! :)
I've been to Albany once. (Blind date). It's very pretty up there.
Well ... OUTSIDE of Albany it's pretty nice, especially when you get far enough away to no longer view Rockefeller's monument pooking out of the ground looking like some obscene submarine pen ... but yeah, out here about 15 miles west of there, it's lalaland ... with guns. Heh.
How abut they use a diesel-electric talgo locomotive and use talgo cars they go pretty fast.
A diesel will reach about 100 mph - pretty respectable - but will not give you the acceleration and top speed Amtrak and its patrons want (125-150 mph range). For that you need either electric or gas turbine locos. Electricifying the line is clearly the best option, but it isn't always achievable, esp. in a democracy when you're fighting politicians and NIMBYs.
Hey RonInBayside Go check Out www.talgoamerica.com
Why do The NIMBY's oppose electrification? Is it that they get high off of the diesel exhaust? I hope these NIMBY's realize that I have to breathe the same air as them. They may love pollution, but I don't, so screw The NIMBY's and clean the air. Like I've said in an earlier post, if they want to put a rail line in my backyard (which I don't mind), then electrify it (plus the passengers would be happier because of faster trains too).
I remember reading an article in Boston Magazine written by a bozo who decried the "ugly" catenary poles ruining the Massachusetts landscape, and railing at Amtrak for lying about how many poles would be needed.
Now, articles in this type of magazine always take a point of view, and rarely do the writers not swing an axe at somebody. But this article was rich in stupidity, boorishness and general irrelevance.
It was also typical of what you might hear a NIMBY say. And, don't forget, a NIMBY can always claim the wires gave his mother brain cancer...
NIMBY and logic don't often get along...
>>NIMBY and logic don't often get along...<<
That's because their brain cells have been destroyed by the diesel exhaust from the locomotives.
It isn't the NIMBYs that oppose electrification - it's the railroads themselves ... all that cost for HOW many ticket sales? Just ain't worth the expense in most areas of the country. In the zones where the number of passengers pays the bills, they ARE electrified largely. Out in "God's country" where an Amtrak train is hauling 5 or 6 people, the cost of over a billion dollars when each train ride is setting back the railroad by tens of thousands of dollars just doesn't encourage them to want to rack up the deficits even higher ... especially with a republican congress wanting to kill the railroads entirely and put them on a nice Texas-based Grey running mutt bus ... (that burns DIESEL) ...
If govt. and citizenry thinks there's enough need for it, then taxes or a bond act can be used to pay for it...if the measure wins support.
Well, the sentiment on the local radio stations is there's a LOT of people honking at their state senators and assemblymen up here *demanding* that it's lights out for the MTA too ... no trains for us, no trains for them and so here we go again on the neverending "it's that OTHER part of the state that's responsible for all the bad things that happen to us" nonsense ...
But the answer's already out there - the last shot at the bond act went down in flames for PRECISELY this same reason ... wouldn't it be neat though if upstate and downstate got together and screwed these politicos instead of letting THEM screw us? :)
So there are people urging their elected officials to shut down the Hudson line? That has to be bogus...
Well, it's my OWN fault for bothering with "chat radio" since you have right wing gassers-off calling each other "liberals" but most of the voices are demanding that MTA funding be cut to ZERO ... I don't pay it no mind because I know what kind of droolers have nothing better to do than listen to those squeaking sounds their radio does because they don't turn it down when they're on the air. :)
But no, right now, they want a nuclear strike on Manhattan. Ignore them ...
Pailpace online reported last Thursday:
"The Super Steel rebuilt RTL-III trainset with powercars 2135-2138 moved under its own power on June 7 from the Rensselaer Maintenance Facility back to Super Steel, Glenville, NY. Reportedly, more mechanical work will take place at Super Steel. This is the first time in several months that the trainset has moved under its own power. (Andy Kirk - posted 6/07)"
How about a track with bikes suspended by weights and a express rail with A tread to pull the bike at 9 mph (and at turns you would have to pedel).
A relative of mine said his train today from NYP to WAS was about 90 minutes late due to electrical problems at Wilmington. He said how they needed a diesel or something to that effect (he is not a railfan).
Does anyone have further details?
Thanks, in advance.
When can I expect to see some R142 trains on the Dyre Avenue line? I've ridden some new cars on the #2 and #6 lines, and look forward to riding these quiet, smooth and bright cars on a more regular basis.
Please, in the future, when asking a question about when something cool will occur, word the subject as a question. I got all excited expecting to see a report of someone who saw the R142s on the 5.
Anyway, to answer your question, it will probably be after the 2 gets all theirs. They probably want to do the car assignments in numerical order, so once the 2 theirs last set (at, say, 6900) The 5 will get the ones afterward (6901-on).
I still believe the 5 could be seeing them any day now on a temporary basis, since at 241st and Flatbush sometimes 2s become 5s and 5s become 2s should there be a shortage of one train or another.
More like Flatbush. The 5 trains from White Plains originate from 239St yard. (AM rush hours).
In the PM rush I have seen 5s become 2s at 241 due to a #2 somewhere along the line going OOS. I just assumed somehow the reverse happened in the morning (I know, not very sound logic).
Yes, sometimes if there is a gap in service, they would send a 5 to 241St or vice versa, gap in 5 service, 2 to Dyre. But since the 5 originate from the yard in the AM rush, and something happens, you can take a 2 to E.180 and pick up a 5 from Dyre there.
I think the last set for the #2 line would more likely be around 6750 rather than 6900. Giving the 2 line #6301-6900 would be 590 cars, which the 2 line doesn't need for itself. More like #6301-6750. I dunno, guess you'll have to wait...
CWalNYC
MTA_R142_6301-6310
How frequent is rush hour service on the new "V" line going to be?? I was thinking today that it would be an idea to run "V" trains to the World Trade Center instead of Houston-2 Av. I'm sure that local station Queens Blvd. riders going to the WTC area would prefer that option vs. the slow "R". Or, is this option not a good idea since the merge with "C" and "E" trains after W4 St would throw schedules into a tizzy?? I personally think running the "V" to WTC would give that train more Downtown use. Tony
True. But then you may also be right about the capacity on the C/E. The C doesn't use much capacity, but the E does.
:-) Andrew
"How frequent is rush hour service on the new "V" line going to be??"
About 8-9 tph.
"I was thinking today that it would be an idea to run "V" trains to the World Trade Center instead of Houston-2 Av."
Is that okay with Grand St shuttle riders who will now have only the F to connect to at Bway Lafayette?
"I'm sure that local station Queens Blvd. riders going to the WTC area would prefer that option vs. the slow "R".
Anybody right now that is going from anywhere on Queens Blvd to WTC is using the E and that seems to be enough as they don't get too crowded until they get by Lex/53rd.
". . .the merge with "C" and "E" trains after W4 St would throw schedules into a tizzy??"
It'd be close. Around 4PM it looks like there's a lot of space between trains, but I've never seen it at the height of the rush.
I have a suggestion regarding the "V" Train:
Run the "V" train from Jamaica Center as an express from Van Wyck Boulevard to Queens Plaza then local to via 6th Avenue to 2nd Avenue.
Shift the "E" Train from Jamaica Center to 179th Street-Hillside Avenue. Run as local from 179th Street-Hillside Avenue to 71st Street-Continental Avenue, then express from 71st Street-Continental to Queens Plaza. The rest of the "E" Train remains unchanged. (This was the original "E" route)
Regards,
Danny the bus addict
It's 71st Avenue, not "Street".
You are correct!
Regards,
Danny the bus addict
You already have the F train running local from 179th St to 71st Ave. That would be excess capacity on the local stations. It might make sense to swithch the F to a rush hour express from 179th to 71st Ave as they used to do.
The only problem is the merger with three lines at 71st Ave. Many mornings the congestion getting into 71st is bad with only 2 lines, three would make it intolorable.
You could say run fewer V trains from Jamaica Center, but those trains are already crowed by the time they hit Union Tpke as it is, so running fewer trains out of Jamaica Center would lead to too much crowding. You would have to divert bus service away from the Archer Ave line to Hillside Ave. to ease the overcrowding but that would defeat the purpose of what the Archer Ave line was built for.
Can the QB exp tracks fit 3 trains? I think not.
The main constraint is on TOTAL track capacity, not on the number of services using a given track. If the capacity of a Queens Boulevard Line express track is (for example) 30 trains per hour, it doesn't really matter whether those 30 trains consist of (say) 30 of one route, 15 each of 2 routes, 1 each of 30 routes, or anything in between. Yes, switching movements can have an effect on total track capacity, but (and where have I heard THIS before? {g}) a properly designed and executed schedule will keep this effect to a minimum.
David
The main constraint is on TOTAL track capacity, not on the number of services using a given track.
Another constraint is whether or not there are a sufficient number of trainsets to provide the service.
TOTAL track capacity is generally determined by the terminal configuration. The contraints caused by reversing direction are usually more severe than those that define one-way single track capacity.
The anticipated service levels are: 20 tph equally divided between the R and the V. The G runs at 6 tph. The total would be 26 tph, which was turned around at Forest Hills without incident in the late 1950's. There are two relays past Continental. One is under 75th Ave; the second is at the Jamaica Yard entrance. Each is capable of turning 15 tph under normal conditions and 30 tph with creative scheduling. However, together they should be able to handle the anticipated service levels without special considerations.
a properly designed and executed schedule...
They used to turn around 90 tph at Park Row durig the cable car days. Perhaps the TA's dummies could be replaced with those old electric switching dummies. :-)
In Moscow, the standard terminal configuration is two tail tracks past the station with a double crossover between them. This arrangement can turn 42 tph, which incidentally happens to be the maximum capacity of the busiest lines. There is an interesting arrangement, where, at the station, a second train operator enters the train at the rear and takes it back out of the layup track and continues on the run back. The original T/O, at what is now the back, can get out and take a short break before walking to the rear of another train. This is much more efficient than having to wait for a train operator to walk through the entire train.
The figure that I gave for 30 tph included a second operator. This figure is based on the length of time it takes a train to pass over the crossover. This time is roughly proportional to the train speed and the train length.
The latest model Moscow trains are 505 feet long, the IND trains are 600 feet long. All other things being equal one would have to derate the Moscow performance proportionately. This would bring the figure down to 35 tph.
There may be differences in the interlocking length between Moscow and the IND. The IND typically added an extra car length on either side of a double crossover to the interlocking block. They did this so that in the unlikely event that the brakes were cut out on the first car, the tripper actuating the brakes on the second car would still stop the train and avoid a collision. An additional 100 feet for the IND interlocking would make the terminal capacity roughly equivalent.
This is not an issue on the Queens Blvd line. There is excess terminal capacity. There are two crossovers at Forest Hills, there are two at 179th St and there is one at Jamaica Center. That's a total of 5 crossovers with a theoretical capacity of 150 tph for an operation that will supply only 50 tph.
What is more remarkable about the Moscow Subway is that they do provide 42 tph operation using a block system that is roughly comparable to that used in NYC. They do use one additional innovation that is decidedly low tech, low cost and can be implemented easily and quickly. There is also a theoretical basis for its effectiveness as well as decades of practical experience. These are perhaps some the the reasons the TA prefers to ignore it.
"Another constraint is whether or not there are a sufficient number of trainsets to provide the service."
...which, of course, there aren't.
"They used to turn around 90 tph at Park Row durig the cable car days."
I did not know that. On how many tracks? I guess they didn't have a problem with people refusing to get off/being asleep/pretending to be asleep/not knowing where the he-- they are in those days.
The lack of a sufficient number of trainsets is more complicated than a simple lack of individual cars. Current TA practices have done much to create this shortage.
The original Park Row terminal (1883) was a simple two-track center platform stub end affair. It was expanded greatly in the ensuing years and reached its zenith around 1907-1908. This layout is widely available but I can't immediately cite a web reference. There were two tracks on the bridge expanding into a 4 track/4 platform terminal (island and side platforms). Then there was an additional 2 track relay west of the terminal with an additional 3 platforms (island and side platforms).
One certainly admires all the tricks that were used in this operation. This station was used by all Manhattan bound passengers from all the Southern District and a good share of the Eastern District passengers. However, there is little necessity for such elaborate operations at Forest Hills. The locals are practically empty when they reach Forest Hills during rush hours. In the morning, the majority of passengers have boarded at 63rd Drive or 67th Ave and want to change for an empty local or an express going to Manhattan. In the evening, the train is practically empty between 67th and Continental.
Removing all passengers for a relay (not a move to the yard) is a recent TA policy. Clearly, taking 3 minutes to perform such fumigation prevents 30 tph operation. An examination of the root problems that caused the TA to implement this policy might result in a different solution that does not limit terminal capacity nor unduly inflate the payroll.
Thanks for the information.
The test on the Queens Boulevard Line a few weeks ago (which is going to be repeated all day on a Saturday soon) revealed problems in getting trains cleared. These problems manifested themselves even with an obscene number of NYCT personnel on the Jamaica-bound platform at Continental Avenue on hand to get trains cleared. The policy of clearing trains on relays probably wasn't in place years ago, but as the operating personnel who read this board have attested many times, it's now necessary (whether the "sidewalk superintendents" who also read this board agree or not), and it is simply not fiscally prudent to flood the Jamaica-bound platform at Continental Avenue with personnel on a daily basis, even if it is only during the rush hours.
A more tightly run operation on NYCT's part would almost definitely allow for higher throughput at the Continental Avenue relays, and it should be possible (it was the norm once), but passenger behavior is a factor that cannot be ignored, and it is a wildcard that just so much can be done to minimize (unless, say, NYPD is willing to provide sufficient police coverage to allow an Officer to ride every relay -- unlikely at best). If anyone on this board has any ideas in this regard, please present them, whether here or to NYCT or both.
With respect to the reasons behind the paucity of cars to operate additional Queens Boulevard service, I am well aware of Mr. Bauman's objection to the linking of subway cars into multiple-car sets because (as he contends) it inflates Mean Distance Between Failures while reducing the number of spares available, as he has articulated it on this board many times. Whether it is the factor he claims it to be is open to debate, it has been debated here before, and I have no intention of debating it again. There is, of course, also the R-30 factor (cars that were said to have been intended for retention in case of a ridership increase were instead scrapped before the increase happened), but that, too, has been talked about to death.
It should also be mentioned that the bigger "bang for the buck," should sufficient cars become available, would be to provide more Queens Boulevard/Manhattan local service, rather than to provide direct Queens Boulevard/Crosstown service. Among politicians and self-appointed spokespeople who have spoken out on this issue, only Claire Shulman (Queens Borough President) has said anything like this -- and she's been term-limited out of office at the end of the year, thus having nothing to lose by cheesing off the Crosstown contingent.
David
David
The test on the Queens Boulevard Line a few weeks ago (which is going to be repeated all day on a Saturday soon) revealed problems in getting trains cleared.
Such a test pre-supposes that trains all day Saturday would manifest the same riding population as Monday-Friday rush hour trains. I would submit that they are completely different populations with different numbers and different destinations. I daresay that any conclusions reached regarding clearing out trains based on a Saturday experiment would be suspect.
The policy of clearing trains on relays probably wasn't in place years ago, but as the operating personnel who read this board have attested many times, it's now necessary (whether the "sidewalk superintendents" who also read this board agree or not)...
I've received some private correspondance regarding this topic as a result of some questions that I posted on this board. I maintain that there is a way to address the operating personnel's concern without having to clear the trains. It would require more personnel but not an unreasonable number.
...it is simply not fiscally prudent to flood the Jamaica-bound platform at Continental Avenue with personnel on a daily basis, even if it is only during the rush hours.
It is more fiscally prudent to build more tracks or $500 million connectors, if a capacity problem could be solved by flooding a location with personnel?
This is not to imply that flooding an area with personnel will necessarily solve or even improve a situation. I can make a fairly strong argument that the platform conductors at Grand Central increase dwell time by 10 seconds.
A more tightly run operation on NYCT's part would almost definitely allow for higher throughput at the Continental Avenue relays,
I think that discovering how to maximize througput through terminals is far more important than whether or not the G is extended beyond Court Sq. The TA is planning to terminate 20 tph at Continental when the V comes on line. The TA is claiming that they cannot clear 26 tph. The 20 tph figure consists of 10 V's and 10 R's. The R's represent a reduction from 12 tph due to the Manhattan Bridge switch. Eventually, there will be four operational tracks on the MB and people should expect a return to 12 tph service and eventually to the 15 tph of yore. The switches at Church Ave and Bergen St will also be made operational. So, passengers should reasonably expect 12-15 tph service on both lines making for 24-30 tph. If the TA can't turn this level of trains around at Continental, then the 63rd St Connector has been maxed out before it has opened.
Among politicians and self-appointed spokespeople who have spoken out on this issue, only Claire Shulman (Queens Borough President) has said anything like this -- and she's been term-limited out of office at the end of the year, thus having nothing to lose by cheesing off the Crosstown contingent.
Queens residents who board at Court Sq and Van Alst are within walking distance of other trains with direct access to Manhattan. The residents who are protesting the most are those from Greenpoint who have never had a chance to vote against Ms. Shulman because they reside in Brooklyn. I think that Ms. Shulman's attitude has more to do with the intervention of Newtown Creek than to term limits.
The Greenpoint residents will indeed have less service as a result of the new routing - with or without a moving sidewalk. The present service level to Manhattan from 23rd-Ely is 30 tph. The new service level will be 25 tph. The present service level to Manhattan at Queens Plaza is 42 tph. The new service level will be 35 tph.
It should also be mentioned that the bigger "bang for the buck," should sufficient cars become available, would be to provide more Queens Boulevard/Manhattan local service, rather than to provide direct Queens Boulevard/Crosstown service.
Not necessarily so. That depends on where the passengers are boarding and which trains. The last time I'd checked, most of the passengers were boarding expresses between Forest Hills and Jamaica. The expresses were running above their service load levels by the time they left Forest Hills. Adding additional local trains between Forest Hills and Manhattan will have only a marginal effect. Increasing express service would provide a better return under such a scenario. It is not as if express service levels were not significantly higher in the past. I would be curious to see what the actual station turnstile counts were to see if this is or is not merit to this supposition.
I appreciate your articulation of some of the arguments presented for citing some of the reasons for the trainset shortage. Let me cite two more.
First, the TA's response to the fact that the brakes on the current fleet could not stop their trains in a short enough distance was to limit train speed not to improve the brakes. This lengthened the average travel time by 10%. This decision required an increase of 10% more cars to maintain the existing service level.
Second, the TA's multiple links come in half train lengths. One technique to maximize car utilization is to match train size to demand. Trains could be sized in 10% or 12% increments, if single cars were used. The present arrangement is to coarse. Trains length could be sized either too long or too short with 50% increments.
Incidently, the use train frequency to equalize load levels is complicated by route topology. The proposed frequency mismatch between the E/V and F/V should prove to be an operational nightmare.
I agree that it would be better to try out the service plan under actual weekday riding conditions, but the cars aren't available. This much has been acknowledged even by Mr. Bauman, although the process that led to this shortfall is a bone of contention (and I'm not saying I disagree with some or even all of Mr. Bauman's analysis).
Not everyone who rides the G between Brooklyn and Queens in the morning rush is riding FROM Brooklyn TO Queens (or to Queens in the afternon). I know of at least one SubTalker (not me) who does the opposite. In neither case, however, is the number anything worth writing home about. It is true that the loudest howls are coming from Greenpoint, which is in Brooklyn, and therefore outside Mrs. Shulman's constituency; however, that doesn't mean she hasn't heard from her constituents who wish to travel in the other direction.
With respect to my "bang for the buck" comments, I was referring to a choice between Queens Boulevard/Crosstown service and Queens Boulevard/Manhattan service -- and I thought I had done a good job of articulating that. I specifically avoided mentioning express service because I knew I'd get the response that I ended up getting anyway, and we've talked about 11-car express trains before, and it's not going to happen. Oh, well...
The argument that removing field shunting has resulted in an increase of 10% in car requirements to meet the same service levels may or may not hold water. I'd have to check to determine whether running times have increased systemwide since 1996, especially on Queens Boulevard services. My feeling, however (and it's more than a feeling, since I've discussed this with the scheduling people), is that running time has not been increased, at least not enough to warrant additional trainsets.
With regard to train lengths, I don't think anyone would argue that train lengths on the Queens Boulevard Line are 50% too long or even 10% too long.
David
I agree that it would be better to try out the service plan under actual weekday riding conditions, but the cars aren't available.
There are two questions to be answered: how quickly can trains be emptied at Continental and what are the physical limitations to reversing trains at the Continental relays. It would be nice to answer both questions with a single study but not necessary.
A timing study could be made for both rush hour periods to see how quickly the existing trains can be emptied and how many personnel are required. Assuming a braking and acceleration times of 30 seconds each, the relation between unloading time and max service level is apparant. If 30 tph is desired, then the unloading time had better be less than 1 minute. If the unloading time is more than 2 minutes, then the proposed V&R service levels terminating at Forest Hills are not feasible.
The second question could be answered at a time when cars are available. It is essentially answering the question how well could the TA operate the trains, if they were not burdened by having to carry passengers. The answer can be deduced from a simple timing study. Any substantial deviation from the theoretical value should be a signal for an intesive study to pinpoint the deviation.
Positive answers from both studies should be enough corroboration for assuming that local service could be increased. However, the car shortage means that these tests are being performed for future considerations not the present.
The argument that removing field shunting has resulted in an increase of 10% in car requirements to meet the same service levels may or may not hold water. I'd have to check to determine whether running times have increased systemwide since 1996, especially on Queens Boulevard services.
My 1978 schedule show that the F running time between 179th and Stilwell to be 82 1/2 minutes whereas the present running time posted on the MTA website is 90 minutes. The same schedule shows the E running time between 179th and Chambers to be 45 minutes whereas the present schedule shows 51 minutes. The EE took 48 minutes to reach Whitehall today's R takes 53 minutes.
With regard to train lengths, I don't think anyone would argue that train lengths on the Queens Boulevard Line are 50% too long or even 10% too long.
One might not think so but whenever there is unequal loading there are possibilities for better resource allocation. "Reducing Subway Overcrowding at the Manhattan CBD Cordons - Vol. 1: The Queens Cordon," a planning study that is available on the web, shows that load levels for the various services to be: E-122%; F-133%; N-112% and R-72%. Removing a single car from the R would raise its load level to 80% and placing it or adding them in single train increments to the F would reduce its loading to 121%.
"My 1978 schedule show that the F running time between 179th and Stilwell to be 82 1/2 minutes whereas the present running time posted on the MTA website is 90 minutes. The same schedule shows the E running time between 179th and Chambers to be 45 minutes whereas the present schedule shows 51 minutes. The EE took 48 minutes to reach Whitehall today's R takes 53 minutes."
If these figures are accurate (and I'm not doubting them, though the EE was a memory by 1978), then it confirms that running times have increased...since 1978. That's too far back. Field shunting was removed in 1996-97. Has running time been increased since that time? Have trainset requirements increased since that time? I don't have those answers readily available...if anybody here does, please speak up.
I haven't read the study Mr. Bauman cited. When was it done? Was it done before the ridership increases of the late 1990s/early 2000s? I highly doubt that E and F loading has dipped below 100%, but I would take an educated guess that R trains are now more than 72% full. The N is not a Queens Boulevard service, so I am not certain as to its relevance to this discussion.
David
I haven't read the study Mr. Bauman cited. When was it done?
1992
I'd be very much interested in studying more recent data. Any conclusions are subject to the accuracy of their assumptions. I do not profess any immunity from the "garbage in - garbage out" syndrome.
It would certainly be nice, if the TA were to make some if its data as readily availabile as the study I used.
The point of my illustrative example was to show that unequal load levels do allow for better resource allocation, even in such highly overcrowded environments as the Queens-Manhattan corridor. I do think that the ability to add or remove capacity in 10% increments is a very useful tool to optimizing resource allocation.
The current TA practice is to run all trains at full length. This is not a bad policy, if cars are plentiful and the costs for running them are not great. These conditions do not accurately characterize the present operating environment.
"The current TA practice is to run all trains at full length. This is not a bad policy, if cars are plentiful and the costs for running them are not great. These conditions do not accurately characterize the present operating environment."
In at least one sense, they do reflect operating conditions. A long train and a short train both typically have an operator and conductor. So, it really costs little more to run an eight-car train than it does to run a four car train.
A long train and a short train both typically have an operator and conductor. So, it really costs little more to run an eight-car train than it does to run a four car train.
I think you are overlooking at least two factors in your analysis.
First, there are other expenses besides operator salaries that are associated with operating cars. The operator cost is not the major cost according to the FTA datbase. Non-operating costs are greater than operating costs. Total maintenance costs are approximately equal to total operating costs.
Second, there are amortized capital costs associated with the cars - over $150K per car per year. Suppose there is a sytem-wide target load level of 80% and this can be accomplished by 7 cars on one line and 9 on another, then running 10 car trains on both lines is fairly wasteful. These capital costs are so high that they will swamp any effects due to operator costs. However, these capital costs are not directly borne by the TA, so they have no incentive to include them in their overall management strategy.
"Second, there are amortized capital costs associated with the cars - over $150K per car per year. Suppose there is a sytem-wide target load level of 80% and this can be accomplished by 7 cars on one line and 9 on another, then running 10 car trains on both lines is fairly wasteful."
But if the cost of buying and replacing single units is substantially higher than current policy (and it is), then the savings you wish to achieve do not exist, because you have left out important details in your analysis. There is waste either way, and there is a chance that your approach is more wasteful.
"The last time I'd checked, most of the passengers were boarding expresses between Forest Hills and Jamaica. The expresses were running above their service load levels by the time they left Forest Hills. Adding additional local trains between Forest Hills and Manhattan will have only a marginal effect. Increasing express service would provide a better return under such a scenario. It is not as if express service levels were not significantly higher in the past."
You're being close-minded, as usual, Steve.
The proposed V routing will tend to redistribute passengers as follows: those heade for west of Jackson Heights stops (mostly local stops) will have a new service along Sixth Av to take them there. These people will no longer be transferring off Sixth Av trains at Queens Plaza.
Passengers transferring off the 6 at 51rst St will now have a similar choice of local vs. express, with people headed for locations east of Jackson Heights, or those headed for express stops, on the "E" and those headed for local stops on the "V." This option did not exist before, so you couldn't choose it if you wanted to.
Tis arrangement can make a difference in Queens-bound service. How much of a difference? I think it's fair to observe it in action and see what actually happens.
You're being close-minded, as usual, Steve.
It has been decades since I used the Queens Blvd line on a daily basis. That's why I did qualify my observations pending an analysis of more recent turnstile counts. I don't think that the ridership distribution has materially changed because there has not been any significant new building developments.
Have things really changed. Do expresses no longer arrive at Forest Hills above 100% of service load level? Is the service level contemplated for express service really more than 80% of the 1957 service levels?
The proposed V routing will tend to redistribute passengers as follows: those heade for west of Jackson Heights stops (mostly local stops) will have a new service along Sixth Av to take them there. These people will no longer be transferring off Sixth Av trains at Queens Plaza.
Would you care to speculate what percentage of the total Queens Blvd Line usage originates from these stations? None of these stations would merit a visit from a citywide office seeker. There are 8 other stations that should be on his/her list.
Passengers transferring off the 6 at 51rst St will now have a similar choice of local vs. express, with people headed for locations east of Jackson Heights, or those headed for express stops, on the "E" and those headed for local stops on the "V." This option did not exist before, so you couldn't choose it if you wanted to.
Are you assuming that those people wanting such local service were incapable of counting up to 59?
Actually the potential for transfer between the Lex and the Queens Blvd line has been reduced. Currently there are 42 tph total from Queens at 59th and 51st. There will be only 35 tph from Queens available for such transfers under the new routing.
One thing that has changed over the decades is the destination distribution in Manhattan. The Lex&53rd St Station was designed to service a residential area when it was built. The platform and entrances are inadequate for the current demand. Reducing the number of trains using this station by 16% does not strike me as a prudent policy for dealing with platform overcrowding.
I think it's fair to observe it in action and see what actually happens.
Designers and engineers should be paid to have a better handle on the future than to wait and see what happens. They should be paid to avoid catastrophes and possibly to improve the future.
"Designers and engineers should be paid to have a better handle on the future than to wait and see what happens. They should be paid to avoid catastrophes and possibly to improve the future."
And, given the resources they have available, that's exactly what they're trying to do. Even if I don't agree with everything they do, I respect them for that.
[Designers and engineers should be paid to have a better handle on the future than to wait and see what happens. They should be paid to avoid catastrophes and possibly to improve the future. ]
You forget to factor in human behaviour.
Your're not suggesting that engineers could predict the stock market :-)
Arti
You're missing the point.
The point of the V train is to add local service for Queens riders and attempt to decongest the express by providing another Manhattan-bound local option. Sending the V to Jamaica Center wouldn't make sense since the V is only a rush hour/midday line. The rest of the time, the G train will run to 71st/Continental.
Besides, there are not enough cars in the system to run three lines all the way out; this is the argument against terminating the G or R at 179th to end congestion at 71st/Continental--they wouldn't have enough trains to make useful schedules.
Dan
Maybe open up the Lower Level of City Hall Station on N/R and let the V Terminate there??????
And how, pray tell, would the V get from 6th Avenue onto the Broadway tracks? Up and down the stairs at 34th?
Nah, they'd use the escalator. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Speaking of the V train, this would have been a wonderful opportunity to help the riders in Park Slope by extending it from 2nd Avenue to Church Avenue. I wonder why Park Slope riders do not rate as highly as Queens riders or others who are getting additional service while Pakr Slope riders continue to be "serviced" by inadequate service on the F line.
I wonder why Park Slope riders do not rate as highly as Queens riders
The load levels for almost all the Queens Blvd services is much greater than that for the services in Park Slope.
Send the E to Euclid and the C to the eastern division.
E to Euclid, yes. C to Eastern Div, there is no connection.
Dan
[E to Euclid, yes. C to Eastern Div, there is no connection. ]
There is, switch to 6th Ave @ W4th, then via Christie to Williamsburg Bridge.
Arti
Ah, I see. I had forgotten that the lines connected there.
Dan
As I mentioned in a previous posting, I lost my job a couple weeks ago. My job search since then has been going rather badly, having scored exactly one interview out of at least a dozen or so resumes I've sent out so far. The interview went well, but the job in question qoes something like this:
1) Idiot buys expensive house near O'Hare Airport
2) Idiot is shocked to discover that jet airplanes make noise
3) Idiot, naturally, sues the City of Chicago
4) Judge decress that the city must pay to soundproof Idiot's home
5) City hires architecture firm to oversee soundproofing of Idiot's home, as well as the homes of several hundered other similar idiots. This is where yours truly would come in.
Needless to say, it doesn't sound like a very exciting position, but beggars can't be choosers, I suppose.
In my previous posting I also mentioned that with things in Chicago going so badly, I'm giving some consideration to leaving the city once again, possibly to Boston, Philadelphia, or the NYC area. After looking at a lot of information and doing a lot of soul-searching, right now I seem rather torn between sticking it out in Chicago or moving to Philly sometime this fall.
Reasons to stay in Chicago:
I've grown very attached to Chicago over the past eight years of living here.
Chicago is a very healthy and beautiful city
Most of my closest friends live here
Chicago has a very good architectural community
I wouldn't have to move all my crap 1000 miles again
Reasons to move to Philly:
Drexel University's co-op program will let me work full-time and still get my degree by taking evening classes
Philly, unlike NYC or Boston, has plenty of affordable housing
Philly is very close to NYC and Washington, and within a few hours of Boston.
Several of my close friends in Chicago have family in Philly and visit regularly.
Despite my housing fiasco last summer in Boston, part of me is still itching to broaden my horizons a bit by spending time in another city.
I applied to Drexel today just to see if they're crazy enough to accept me, so I should have an answer within a few weeks. In the meantime, here's a few questions I have for any Philadelphia residents or experts:
1) Most importantly, any idea what Philly's job market is like for architects? In what esteem is Drexel's co-op program held within Philly's architectural community?
2) I know there's a couple people here with connections to Drexel. What are your general impressions of the university? Strengths / weaknesses? Be candid.
3) I'd be looking to get a one-bedroom apartment for less than $750 a month, close to public transit (preferably MFL, subway-surface or regional rail), but also someplace where parking wouldn't be a hassle. From the rental listings I've seen, it doesn't look like I'd have much trouble finding a place. I'd most likely end up in Northeast or maybe South Jersey just because it would be a somewhat shorter trip to NYC, but I'm open to any other suggestions.
4) This may be a bit of a stretch, but how hard would it be to work in New York City and still take evening classes at Drexel? The commute would be a bitch at the very least, but I'm exploring all my options here.
5) How healthy is Philly's underground nightlife/arts/music scene? It can't possibly be as sterile as Boston's, but I'd still like to take advantage of such things without trekking all the way up to New York.
Thanks in advance for any tips or suggestions... FYI, I probably wouldn't be moving until October at the earliest, so the SubTalk field trip to Chicago wouldn't be in danger.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, if you're going to Drexel and interested in the underground nightlife/arts/music scene, you might want to try looking for an apartment in the University City area. That's where it seems to be happening. Plus, you'd get to ride the Kawasaki trolleys. Northeast Philly is best for access to NYC, if you get a place close to an R7 station, and a lot better for parking a car. Getting to Drexel wouldn't be hard from there, if you lived near either the R7 or R8, both of which run to 30th street station, right next to Drexel's campus, or a bus line that feeds into the MFL.
Both these areas offer affordable housing, too.
And forget the cheesesteaks. Go for the pizza. Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market is the best place to eat in town.
Mark
And forget the cheesesteaks. Go for the pizza. Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market is the best place to eat in town.
Now, don't forget that you're talking to a Chicagoan here. I have yet to find good pizza east of Stony Island Avenue. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is East Coast pizza, so it's not like Chicago style mind you, but as far as this region goes, it's my favorite. I won't say it's better than Gulliver's but it's really good.
When I was a kid in Mississippi my folks would bring back Chicago pizzas in the winter time, keeping them frozen in the trunk of the car...
Speaking of Chicago and Philadelphia, and bringing this back on topic, I saw a movie awhile back, not a very good movie, called Jesus's Son, which was about a loser being a loser. There was a scene that was supposed to be on the Chicago L, but it was obviously shot in Philly. The exterior shots were of the new M4 MFL cars, which don't look anything like anything CTA runs. But maybe I'm getting picky, as only a subway fan would know that. The interior shots, however, were done in old M3 Almond Joys, made to look a lot worse than I've ever seen any CTA or SEPTA train. (I guess that's what the audience would be expecting.) And there in plain view were the Philadelphia route maps all over the walls. Not a very convincing Chicago. What's more, is there was then a scene under the tracks at a station. It looked to me like Margaret-Orthodox. He kept walking past neon signs that said things like "Steaks, Hoagies"...definitely Philly menu jargon. Maybe people who haven't been to either Philly or Chicago wouldn't notice these things, but it looked like someone could have tried a little harder to make Philly look like Chicago.
Mark
>>> Maybe people who haven't been to either Philly or Chicago wouldn't notice these things, but it looked like someone could have tried a little harder to make Philly look like Chicago. <<<
Give em a break. That was an independent production shot on a shoestring. They probably couldn't afford the fare to go to Chicago, nor the expense of disguising the SEPTA trains. The artsy crowd at some film festivals liked it, but it was not a commercial sucess.
Tom
>>And forget the cheesesteaks.<<
Forget the cheesesteaks? You've got to be kidding. And as for pizza, I agree with you right there. Gianfranco's really does have the best pizza in Philly. And for burgers (may I add), Flamer's in The bourse is where you go to.
I won't comment on the food, but the local market for architects is pretty good. As for Drexel's co-op program, I know it's very successful on the engineering side (I would imagine the same for architecture). I'm not sure you could commute back from NYC in time every day for Drexel night classes since I believe they begin around 6 PM and Amtrak isn't exactly the timeliest railroad around.
On neighborhoods, other posts left out Powelton (north of Drexel's campus, north of Market St) and Manayunk. Powelton is within walking distance and fairly quiet. Manayunk isn't either, but a relatively short bus or train ride away and a pretty eclectic place.
As a native Philadelphian, I disagree about us being cool to outsiders. We tend to give the cold shoulder to New Yorkers only because we get sick of the comparisons (New York has better...). My answer to that is always that if NYC has better whatever, then why are you here?
"As a native Philadelphian, I disagree about us being cool to outsiders. We tend to give the cold shoulder to New Yorkers only because we get sick of the comparisons (New York has better...). My answer to that is always that if NYC has better whatever, then why are you here?"
I agree with you there, which is why I'm going to school there this fall:)
I really do love my hometown. It has a real neighorhood feel that no other city I've been to has.
Sure, NYC is cooler, but only natives or weirdos like me could stand living there:)
Hmm, where to begin.
1) I don't specifically know about the job market for architects, but I do know we are in a mini-building boom (keep in mind this is Philly, fastest shrinking city in America). Perks Reutter is building Rafael Vińoly's Performing Arts Center. And a new skyscraper is scheduled to begin construction soon near Suburban Station.
2) I went to Swarthmore College in the Suburbs, but took a lot of classes at UPenn through an articulation agreement. Penn and Drexel have adjoining campuses in University City. I found Penn students rather snobby because they're (nominally) Ivy League. To be fair though, Drexel does look physically shabby next to Penn. That's not to say that it's a bad school however. In its own areas (IT, engineering), Drexel is on par with Penn. I'm not sure how their architecture schools compare, but then Drexel is the only evening/part-time arch. program in the Northeast.
3) For housing, it's a must that you live in Center City. While big, Philly is not as cosmopolitan as NY, Chicago or even Boston in the makeup of its population. Most residents were born here. CC is the exception. In most other neighborhoods, they're not used to outsiders. Not to say that they wouldn't be welcoming, but you would still be an outsider. Residents can get on-street parking permits, and it's not too hard to find a spot. Alternatively you can pay about $60-$150/month for a garage. Philadelphia Weekly has the best city apt. listings. Neighborhoods in CC include Olde City (trendy, art galleries), Society Hill (Colonial, somewhat old money, but near South Street), Bella Vista (young couples, near South Street bars, some gays), Rittenhouse (ritzy, many empty-nesters, but near University City, so has lots of students), Washington Sq. W. (WashWest, center of town, contains Antique Row, the gay district, theaters, funky cafes), Logan Circle/Parkway/Art Museum (a little more expensive, less rowhomes-more highrises, near all the museums and Fairmount Park), South of South (SoSo, very near University City, a "borderline" improving neighborhood, lots of cheap student housing), Chinatown (impenetrable to non-Chinese, at least for housing), University City (not technically in Center City, but right across the river, obviously where most students live, also large Ethiopian, Indian, and Nigerian populations). The Northeast may as well be suburbia. Downtown is so cheap you really give up a lot and gain little by living further away. Oh, and Center City is so small, buses are just as convenient as the el or subway, and no ride to University City is more than 15 minutes from most places. Walking is actually the most convenient way to get around.
It was getting long, so I thought I'd break it up.
4) I think it would be very difficult. I know of people who live in Philly and work in Metropark or even NY, but the commute is very long, and expensive if you take Amtrak. However, I don't think you'd be able to return in time to attend evening classes, unless your employer were very flexible.
5) The music/arts scene here is very vibrant. Lots of homegrown talent, especially if you like hip-hop/RnB. Jill Scott, the Roots, Pink, and many others I'm not thinking of. See again the Philly Weekly or City Paper. There are huge clubs in old waterfront factories/warehouses on Delaware Ave., but I find them to be more of the pop music, South Jersey big-hair girls with TransAm driving guys named Vito scene. Smaller clubs are in Chinatown or on South St. Underground theater is very big. Also lots of Art galleries in Old City. They have a First Friday every month where people go out and hop from bar to gallery to bar to gallery... There are a few micro-clubs in Bella Vista near South St. with local DJ's spinning house, trance, etc. In the summer, the Orchestra plays at the Mann Center, an outdoor arena in Fairmount Park. People bring picnic baskets and wine and sit on the grass. Cheap too. And don't discount the museums. The Mütter Museum of Medical Oddities is worth a Saturday afternoon.
I guess that's all for now. Email me if you have more specific questions. Now I'm off for Brooklyn to look for apartments tomorrow. Maybe I'm having second thoughts.
I will be visiting NYC again this summer and have an extra weekday or two. I alwys try to see the best Subway sites possible.
I have done the Grand central tour.. Where can I find some Subway History in action, not in a museum. I am looking for old stations that have not been updated, or the locations of abandon stations.
I will be there the week of June 21-25th. Too bad there isn't any tours going on.
Email me at rodco@rodcogroup.com
Thanks
ROB
How about starting with "Abandoned and Disused Stations" on Subtalk's home site? That will give you a good idea of what you can see without going on a tour.
See Stillwell Avenue (Coney Island) terminal before its upcoming rebuilding. Visit Chambers Street on the J-M Line. Avenue H on the Brighton (D-Q) Line for a 100-year country-style station house. Ride through Atlantic Avnue (L) currently being restructured.
Visit Chambers Street on the J-M Line.
Dunno ... I sure wouldn't suggest that a vistor see that disgraceful ruin. If it were a long-abandoned station, maybe then, but much of it is still in use!
Chamners Street BMT is an outstanding, if depressing, example of a grand station built for greater things fallen on hard times.
I wish I could've seen it at the height of its grandeur in the '20s - the BMT loop trains would still be running and even the occasional LIRR train as well. It really must have been something!
Also - ever see the entrances to that station next to the Municipal Building? It has brass railings and signs that say "SVBWAY ENTRANCE" and "SVBWAY EXIT" like they were in ancient Rome or something. Typical pre-war BMT style.
I think the high point of Chambers Street was from the '30s to the middle '50s, after the Nassau Loop opened, and before the Culver was reduced to a shuttle. Suring this era, Chambers Street saw the following services:
Jamaica Line
Myrtle-Chambers
Culver
West End
Brighton Specials
Fourth Ave Specials
Even in my memory during the late '50s, train watching at Chambers was an entertainment, with a parade of R-16s, Multis, the different flavors of Standards, and even the occasional SIRT car and rare Triplex.
It was quite an surprise in the mid 1950's to leave the Woolworth Bldg after 10PM, walk across City Hall Park, enter the Chambers St station, and find a darkened train of BU's setting on R4 track.
Wow. I nover got to see regular service BUs anywhere except Myrtle and Coney Island Yard, except on fan trips.
This was not regular service! All of the cars were dark, and it seemed unattended! A transit fan friend told me sometime later that it was probably an equipment move, and that they were probably towed in there.
It was really a shock to see BU's setting in Chambers St station. At this time any train in Chambers St was either a Standard, R-10 or R-16.
x
Isn't it a little dangerous to have BU's going through the tunnel? I thought the clerstory(sp?) was too high, which is why the Transit Museum didn't completely restore the cars they had. Or is that only with regards to IND tunnels?
These days it practically is abandoned. Go there in the middle of the day -- if you just miss a train, it's a 24-minute wait for the next, and don't even bother trying to wait for an M.
The Transit Museum tours have been suspended indefinitely by our Mayor, because of "security concerns." Unfortunately, the NYCT's ambitious subway renovation plans are doing away with a lot of old subway artifacts, so they are getting rarer. Visit Joe Brennan's Abandoned Stations site. Its the bible on abandoned and closed stations and what you can see. The link is available on the main site here.
In the meantime, try these:
1) Canal Street on the J/M/Z: The current northbound platform has not been renovated and is scheduled to be closed. It still has the old "local" track intact even though it hasn't been used in decades. Compare it to the renovated southbound platform.
2) Ride the J/Z from Jamaica to Broad Street: There are a lot of old fascinating artifacts along the line, including the trackways for the old "City Line" station near the current Cypress Hills stop, the remnants of the LIRR-BRT connection, the remnants of the original Crescent St/Cleveland St/Norwood Ave stations (including the original tiny station canopies) and the trackway that ends in midair near the Eastern Parkway station. The whole line is really interesting. The Bowery station also looks like it came from the Year 1.
3) The 149th Street/Grand Concourse station (IRT 2/5): This station has many of the same features it had when it opened in 1905. Check out the old "Mott Avenue" mosaic on the wall on the Manhattan bound side. This was the original name for the station but for some reason, it wasn't covered over like the rest of them. Cool!
4) Canal Street Bridge Line station: This station hasn't been used in 11 years, but has been renovated and will reopen once the Manhattan Bridge repairs are done. You can get to the station by taking the N/R to Canal Street and following the signs to the J/M/Z and the 6. Its a chance to see a station in the midst of renovation and without the distraction of crowds or trains passing by. You can stay as long as you like.
5) Chambers Street, BMT (J/M/Z): This station is really ancient history in action. Its a huge station with very high ceilings. It looks like a Gothic ruin, with wires that once held elegant fixtures dangling from the ceiling and very interesting architecture all around. The highlight of this station is the closed northbound side platform, which for some reason hasn't been walled off (thankfully). It probably hasn't been used in 50 years, but its still in open view from the northbound platform in use. The mosaics are all still there. A history buff's dream.
6) Times Square, BMT Broadway line (N/R): Take a look at the original black on white station signs on the station pillars! They are from the Dual Contracts era (1918- c. 1932).
7) If you can, stay aboard a southbound 6 train at Brooklyn Bridge and swipe a look at the closed City Hall station as the train turns around the loop. I've tried to do this a few times and have always gotten kicked off, but some people have been successful in staying on. This station was supposed to have been renovated and reopened as a branch of the Transit Museum, but that plan was torpedoed by the Mayor a few years back because of "security concerns". Maybe the next Mayor will permit it.
8) Ninth Avenue BMT station, Brooklyn (B): This station is loaded with ancient artifacts. Take a look at the closed lower level station (if you can get down there); this platform was used as "59th Street" at the end of "Crocodile Dundee." There are old ramps leading away from the station that used to connect to the Fifth Avenue el, torn down over 60 years ago.
9) 14th Street, IRT Lexington line (4,5,6): This station is partially renovated. Its one of three stations on the original IRT line that had side platforms, all now closed. A few years ago, I went on a tourt that included the closed side platforms of this station, but the downtown one has since been renovated into a control room. Fortunately, someone had the good sense to carve the elegant wall carvings out of the walls of the side platforms before the walls themselves were destroyed and placed them in the mezzanine for public view. A very good opportunity to see the 1904 "14" mosaics in their original condition!
1) The "local" tracks are the through tracks -- they're used every day. The "express" tracks terminate here from the north, and the two platforms connect at the south end of the station. The "express" tracks were used around 1990, when the weekend J was cut back from Broad to Canal (it was later extended one stop to Chambers).
3) Go outside, too. There's a prominent MOTT AVENUE STATION sign on the stationhouse.
6) Are you sure? One of the photos here from the 1960's or 70's in that station doesn't have the signs.
1) Oh.
2) I meant that they were covered at platform level.
3) Hm? I am referring to the signs on the columns. There are photos from 2000 showing those signs to be there.
2) I know. I was pointing out another example.
3) The signs are there now. They appear not to have been there in the 60's or 70's. That would indicate that they most likely date from the 60's or 70's, not from the Dual Contracts era. (But if you like old column signs, check out the L in Brooklyn.)
>>7) If you can, stay aboard a southbound 6 train at Brooklyn Bridge and swipe a look at the closed City Hall ............This station was supposed to have been renovated and reopened............. but that plan was torpedoed by the Mayor a few years........Maybe the next Mayor will permit it.
Subtalkers Unite!! Vote heypaul for MAYOR!!
I seem to remember the tile work being rather artictic looking on the
#1 line from about Christopher St. to South Ferry.
Visit Broadway-Junction terminal (B'way/E New York on the A train). This is a MUST.
Ride the Canarsie-bound L train and take some pictures at the Atlantic Avenue station as it is currently going through a demolition/reconstruction in anticipation of the 'new technology' R-143 cars (4-5 years down the road).
BMTman
Check out the East 180th St. station building on the #5 Dyre/#2 White Plains Rd. line in the Bronx. It was part of the original New York, Westchester & Boston RR!
Riding on the Lex, just north of Union Sq., you can catch a glimpse of the abandoned 18 St station.
Also on the Lex, north of Brookyn Bridge station, you can see the abandoned Worth St. stop. Last time I was there, there was a crew working on the northbound express track, and their lighting equipment lit up the station quite nicely.
91st Station on the IRT... Clearly visible from
either the 1-2-3-or 9 trains... each time by there,
it seems as tho a different (artist) has made the
walls of the stations (his/her) own personal canvas.
Myself and My friends from the Jinx Society of Urban Explorers give free tours of abandoned New York, we go places Most don't and that most certainly includes abandoned subway stations (91st West Side IRT, 18th St. East Side IRT, Old LIRR stuff, Glenwood Power Plant for Old New York Central Railroads) matter of fact this weekend we were at the Riverside AMtrak Tunnel which is a great place to see some real artistic graffiti and eerie messages, If you are interested give me an E-mail and I'll fill you in of what we are all about, DO NOT rely on these railfans to tell you anything interesting because most of them are too uptight and anything unpopular or unorthodox or any kind of Urban Exploring or basically anything Worthwhile is TABOO to them. check out www.jinxmagazine.com for links to sites like dark passage etc.
DO NOT rely on these railfans to tell you anything interesting because most of them are too uptight and anything unpopular or unorthodox or any kind of Urban Exploring or basically anything Worthwhile is TABOO to them.
Actually, most railfans are responsible enough not to do things that are dangerous and possibly illegal.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOORIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGGGG
Don't dismiss dangerous activity. Epinephrine is the best drug there is.
However when something harms public property, that's a different story.
You know, I'd really appreciate if you would'nt ADVERTISE everything we do, have done, or will do.
There was a picture of a steam locamotive that was used on the third avenue elevated line in the Geographica section of the June issue of National Geographic magazine.The train and two others are in Alaska now, and need to be restored. Maybe a train museum would be interested.
There are 3 Forneys out there. Been there for years. The picture
I saw in National Geo was a lot better than what I had been led
to believe was their condition. Maybe that's the best of the lot.
Does anyone out there know of more resources concerning the Second Avenue Subway, in addition to what's available here?
All you need to know is that it will never be built.
Well, the reason I ask is that an idea I have is to make a BVE route for this line, what it would probably look like if it were built.
The official MESA website used to have diagrams and a lot of details concerning the 2nd Avenue Subway, but they took it down recently. Keep checking it though.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/mesa/index.html
I saw a diagram at the office the other day. The good news is it has provision for a station south of the merge into the 63rd Street line, indicating planning beyond the stubway. The bad news is that it does not include a connection FROM the 63rd Street line in Queens. Without that connection, the TA won't be able to run enough trains down Second Avenue, since some of those coming from the north will diverge to the Broadway line. I hope this is an oversight.
Thank you for posting that.
Whose diagram was it?
Have you tried libraries? If you can get into NYU-Bobst library, I seem to recall that they have some interesting documents, including some of the 1920s expansion plans. Also, try to get your hands on the Manhattan East Side Alternatives DEIS, which was posted on the MTA website but vanished when the FSEIS information went up. You can try calling the Dept. of City Planning at (212) 720-3300 and find out who prepared it.
(Also, try to get your hands on the Manhattan East Side Alternatives DEIS, which was posted on the MTA website but vanished when the FSEIS information went up. You can try calling the Dept. of City Planning at (212) 720-3300 and find out who prepared it.)
The MTA prepared it. City Planning had nothing to do with it.
That's a good idea. Also, you can request hearing transcripts and other documents directly from MTA. Write to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Coming back from the Phillies game the other week, I got an extra-special treat: a visit to the lower level of the Pattison station!
There were some people looking down to the lower level from the northmost entraceway, and one of the employees actually came over and opened up the door. We all walked down and took a quick view.
The lower level looked to be in *great* shape. The smell wasn't bad at all, and there wasn't much debris on the platform apart from a (plastic?) flourescent light cover that had fallen to the platform and broken apart.
The rails on the east track were completely rusted over. On the west track, there was a small diesel maintenance vehicle, and the rails did show evidence of it being operated. (I didn't find out how recently.)
We were told that vandals had walked the tunnel down from Olney avenue to steal the copper connecting wires between the running rails. He said that since power was lost on the running rails, no subway train had been down there in 5-10 years, and that's why the lower level wasn't open for the Republican convention. (Maybe they'll take my suggestion and try out some welded rail. :)
He also recalled some older B-II/?? cars being stored there some time ago. It was heartwarming to hear about wicker seats and ceiling fans.
I won't go into my return to the surface, where the express left 10 minutes behind a local and sat for a couple times in the tunnel. :D
-Lee
Ahhh, if they'd only saved those 1210 trains for these sixers games...
Time for a transit police crackdown...
The diesel was probably part of the track replacement effort currently underway south of Snyder.
I hadn't heard the copper-wire theft thing before. The lower level has been rarely used since the Pattison extension was built. Now that Pattison is to get an elevator, I wonder if this will seal the fate of the lower level, since I don't believe the elevator is supposed to go to it.
I'm looking through SEPTA's FY 2002 Capital Budget and FY 2002-2013 Capital Program & Comprehensive Plan ( http://www.septa.org/reports/cb02draft.pdf ) and there's all the talk about the Market Street Elevated reconstruction, Schuylkill Valley and Cross-County Metro Lines, Norristown High Speed Line extensions. In the FY2006-2013 Description sections, a few things stand out:
-Elwyn to Wawa extension on the R3 ($49M)
-Light Rail Infrastructure Improvements-Routes 23 & 56 ($189M)
-Light Rail Vehicle Purchase-Routes 23 & 56 ($130M)
-Newtown Line Improvements (restoration of the R8) ($32M)
I know all this is still pretty far away, but do we have a reason to be optimistic?
About as much reason as New Yorkers have to be optimistic about the Second Avenue subway :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If so, why did you put a happy smiley at the end of your post instead of a sad one?
-Robert King
Typo...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since the overhead has already been removed on part of the 56 route and Torresdale trackage is due to be paved over this summer a sad face is in order.
The trolleys have only been gone for 9 years, why not put more trolleys in the 2006 capital budget instead of the 2001-2004? No rush.
More serious question - why bother with the facade at all?
Why bother indeed. I live up in Newtown and it amazes me that it's
even mentioned in there at all. 32million? That'd barely get the
weeds out before the survey.
Hmm, Rockhill trolley just extended their line a bit. I say we do
a volunteer project to rehab the track and run trolley poles -
convert the whole Newtown line to light rail! :D
On a more realistic note, what's the deal with the bridge cars for
the Ben Franklin bridge celebration? Can we actually ride them? :)
:) :) :) :)
There's a fairly safe bet that one of the four listed will go anywhere and I wouldn't suggest that it's any of the last three. With all the problems SEPTA is facing (many of which it's caused itself) on Girard Ave, I would guess that 23/56 are a long way off. The Newtown extension is similarly mired in political bickering between two counties - Bucks (which seems to want it) and Montgomery (which is against it).
I'm sorry, I know the Girard Avenue project in Philly has been mentioned here before but exactly what are all the problems that SEPTA is facing with this project? Is there a problem with the width of the street? I've been on Girard Avenue before and it looked pretty wide to me. Is it the wires? The tracks? From what I hear SEPTA wants to extensively overhaul 18 PCCs for Girard Avenue and they recently rerouted the 15 bus off Girard to do work there. It looks like SEPTA's finally making good on restoring streetcar service to Route 15, even if it is without new LRVs. I hope it finally happens.
The major problem is that SEPTA doesn't really want to do it. The City forced it to act politically. You are correct in your assessment of all the factors, but when all is said and done, the hoped-for light rail line will be nothing more than a glorified streetcar line - not that there is anything wrong with this (apologies to Seinfeld!) - but without the separate right-of-way, new cars, and other amenities, the line won't have any real advantages of the current bus service. Thus, SEPTA will have spent $50 million plus on a line that will not perform as advertised.
To look at one factor - the cars - SEPTA wants to overhaul only 18 PCC's. The line is projected to need 15 in peak service. This leaves only 3 spares. There are not enough K cars around for full service on the subway-surface, so SEPTA could overhaul more PCC's, have more spares for 15 (if patronage goes up or the Zoo trolley, Holiday trolley, or any other permutation starts), and have a few extra for subway-surface operation. The City has suggested raising the number to somewhere in the 25-30 range. SEPTA refuses to do so. Funding isn't the reason.
Simply put, it was fifteen years ago on Sunday, June 8, 1986, the first ERA subway fantrip in six years used a four-car set of green R-10's (#3136-2966-3101-3013), and it was chartered to travel on various IND-BMT division routes. The trip covered such lines as Smith Street-Culver, West End, Nassau Street, Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle Avenue.
The trip began and ended at 59th Street-Columbus Circle, and our lunch stop then was at Coney Island. Of course, I was on the excursion (I think I was the tenth customer in purchasing a ticket).
-William A. Padron
"(#3136-2966-3101-3013)"
What was #2966's original number ?
Bill "Newkirk"
R-10 car #2966's original number was #1819, and only the former 1803-1852 grouping of the fleet were reassigned to the new numbers during the year 1970. If anyone wishes to figure at an instant the real prior car numbers of #2950 thru #2999 only, simply subtract off the numerical figure of 1147 to determine the actual original unit. Cars 3000-3349 remained intact and complete with their numbers with no changes.
-William A. Padron
Can the acela HHP-8 operate with the acela train cars?
No. The Acela Express trainsets are permanantly coupled into the sets they are in. That is why they are trainsets. An HHP-8 can not pull Acela Express passenger cars. What it can do is if the AE trainset had to be towed, it could be coupled to the AE trainset's power car.
Oren you are absolutely correct about the Acela Express. But it should also be added that HHP-8s can (and do) pull Acela Regional trains.
Amtrak uses Acela as a marketing name, where:
Acela Express is the new high-speed service
Acela Regional is the "old" electric serivce
The original press releases also talked about "Acela Commuter" service in Pennsylvania, but I haven't seen that moniker used yet.
The original press releases also talked about "Acela Commuter" service in Pennsylvania, but I haven't seen that moniker used yet.
"Acela Commuter" is the future name of the Philly to New York Clockers.
I thought that was implied. The last Metroliner trip I took was pulled by an HHP-8 although since then, I have only taken Acela Express.
Yesterday, while riding through the upstate NY countryside, I saw what looked like several Acela Cars parked on a siding near Whitehall, NY. Of course the line is not electrified up there. I'm just wondering if they were being delivered.
The Bombardier plant is there and That's why the acela cars are there.
The Bombardier plant is located in plattersburg ny.
SSssshhhhhhhh! That's my PRIVATE STASH. :)
I passed through your area about 5AM. I didn't see you guarding the home-front at the thruway toll booths.
Fark no ... hell, if I had caught you before you split from the city, I woulda invited you up here to the company bar to hoist some Foster's lager and park the hog outside ... woulda taken ya for a hayride on the tractor ... next time you're planning on coming through this way, let me know. Farm boy show ya a good time Smallbany county style. I've got handles and we burn slow orders here. :)
Next time it's a deal. I have friends at exit 23 I visit fairly often.
We're closer to 24, but actually halfway between the two. I-90 is close by and we're halfway between Guilderland and Dullmar ... let me know, we even have lodging here and the price can't be beat. Nice digs too ... and it'll only cost ya one chromium plated wrench. (I'm a cheap date, at least in THIS shirt)
Anyone here going to the June 17 nostalgia train? I'll be there.
I will be there with my son, daughter, two nephews and brother in law. The kids' grandfather was a conductor in the subway system, and they could use a trip to see what the trains were like in the good old days.
I'll be there also !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I won't be... if my younger daughter isn't able to make the trip to NJ from Silver Spring, I may head down there for the day and spend it at the National Capital Trolley Museum two miles from her townhouse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You ought to put up some information on these nostalgia train runs on the Upcoming Events page.
- Lyle Goldman
I'll be there. Look forward to meeting some of you...
I will be there, I'm 13 years old and I'll be wearing a grey t-shirt with some grafitti on it and my beloved sky blue Yankees Hat! Front car as always, see yall there!
How about They electrify a railrold from boston to san fransisco?
>>> How about They electrify a railrold from boston to san fransisco? <<<
It sounds like a great idea, but where are they going to put the generators to electrify the line in the great plains and over the Rockies? One idea would be to put the generators on the engines. :-)
Tom
[One idea would be to put the generators on the engines. :-) ]
So you're saying that the line is already electrified :-)
Arti
That is a GREAT Idea. BUT to make that happin. It COSTS ALOT of $$$ to do it.
Yeah But they got the Acela in the air.
No matter how great trains are, you can fly across the country faster, even if the Acela or some other high speed train is doing the same trip. I can't stand air travel, but I must admit, if you are going more than a few hundred miles, the planes are better.
the Only thing about planes is that there are NO STRINGS ATTACHED.
I have an even greater idea: electrify the trans-siberian railroad
No, wait, that's already been done....
I find it rather stupid that America has so few electric railroads that I could enumerate them here:
Amtrak Boston-Washington and Phila-Harrisburg, Metro North Hudson and Harlem lines, the LIRR, NJT North Jersey Coast and Morris & Essex, the SEPTA lines, and the Metra Electric & NICTD. There is no electric freight service at all.
I think that it should be part of the National Energy Plan to electrify the most heavily used lines to reduce energy consumption.
Yeah it was a grade "A" day today, and I'm not talking about the weather. I really had a blast on the A division today.
Got a 7 express to Manhattan in the morning which was pretty fast, since it was later it wasn't as crowded, but there were some track workers around to "ruin" the dash between Junction and Woodside. I got a seat but not the window. In some way it feels faster sitting down.
Got off at Grand Central and got on an uptown Redbird 5 train. Unfortunately someone had the window so I just sat down. It was a fast ride uptown. I love the "roar" the Redbirds make in the bored express tunnels. That will be missed when they depart.
Got off at 125th and went downstairs for downtown express. Another 5 train and another redbird! What luck! This time the window was available. This T/O wasn't as gutsy though, he braked way ahead of yellow signals. There was a train ahead of us but it was WAY ahead.
The GT's after 86th street really suck though. It could be a nice fast stretch, it's fairly straight so I have no idea why the GT's are there. Perhaps if we didn't have such a "scardey cat" we would've done a little better.
After Grand Central the pace resumed a more normal speed. Still saw alot of Redbirds out there on the 5 and 6 lines, with an occasional one on the 4. Got off at BB and walked on over to the Park Place station. A 3 train pulled in going uptown, which I got on. And there was a front window. Yeah even better! The uptown express really didn't pick up speed until after 42nd street, another scardey cat afraid of a train WAY ahead of him.
I got off at 96th and got a 3 back downtown. There was a T/O training, with a supervisor there. I got a seat near the front.
The ride downtown was a real blast. The instructor told him to "wrap it and relax" and man did this train fly. The stations were a blur, the speed was real frightening after 77th street. I know that West Side IRT has got to be one of the fastest spots, with the right T/O.
More great speed the rest of the way downtown, yup this guy was good.
The stations were a blur. Those R62's are very fast trains, just as fast as the "birds". I took it to Park Place. After Chambers the instructor said "OK we have three GT's on this next curve with lunar white you gotta watch out for. One point steady, OK slow down (for the 2nd one) when the last one clears wrap it into the station". He then let it coast and then applied the brake 1/2 the way in to stop Park Place. I've seen the instructors teaching T/O's several times and they want them to be agressive. Perhaps the scardey cats need a little refresher course.
Also why do the 3 trains seem to have half-width cabs not full width? Is it because the trains are shorter? Anyway it's great because you can get a front window view.
I saw one R142 on the 2 line, with a 3 right behind it.
Going back on the "7" express was real nice because I had an ML Redbird. I like the ML redbirds better they seem less beat up and there's less scratchitti. The front window was nice and clear. Plus the ML's seem to give a smoother ride than the R36's. I also kinda like the pull up traditional windows vs. the kind the Corona trains have.
Well I know I've got to enjoy the redbirds while they last.
It seems railfanning on division A is sometimes better than Div B. I never had to wait long for a train and the speeds attainable on the expresses (especially West Side IRT) is simply amazing.
Hmmm ... a long post, and not one mention of mystical girls!
Well, let me tell you what I think a little bit:
The Lexington Avenue IRT matter:
It seems like these T/Os are scaredy-cats, as you say, simply because of those GTs AND because when they run through particular sections, and I should know because I ride that line a lot, that are VERY bumpy and rocky enough to derail a train doing 40+. I dunno, that's my opinion, though.
The West Side IRT thing:
The West Side station is 72nd, not 77th. Just a minor point. The best part IS afer 72nd going southbound only because the trains usually go 40+, despite its rockiness at around 50th. I like the section between 34th-Penn and 14th because it's smooth and very quick like the section after 72nd, but not as bumpy.
The IND/BMT thing:
Yes, B-Division railfanning is hard, unless you grab any car except the R44/46 and R68/68A cars. It's especially hard in any section where the B, D, and the Franklin Av Shuttle(since they have all R68-class cars), and the F, G, and R (since they haev all R46 cars) run. The A, E, and N aren't so bad; you just have to wait for and R32 or R38.
Well, hope I didn't bore you...although I think I did...but until the next time...
CWalNYC
R32_3456
R38_4068-69
R44_5480
R46_5986
R68_2550
R68A_5200
Yeah that's 72nd not 77th. Just a mistake. Well most T/O's I've had on the Lex express aren't scardey cats, in general whenever I've taken it is particularly fast and bumpy. That's what makes it nice.
The 7 express is extremely rough but I guess it's considered safe. Queensbound between Woodside and Junction 7 trains can reach near 50mph.
Yeah south of 72nd rocks. It still has that gold old "subway express" feeling. Noisy, shaky, and fast. Yup the straightaways south of 34th are smoother.
Well my favorite lines on the B division are those that use 60 foot cars, like the N,E,A, and Q.
I was thinking 79th, not 77th. 72nd is an express stop, 79th is local.
Either way, the only two 77th Street stations on the NYC Subway are on the 6 in Manhattan and on the R in Brooklyn.
*clap* clap* *clap* no "mystical" , well anyways Those are great runs, I like the appearence of the "olde" tunnels.
Well, I just heard on the news that the MTA sent either an ACTUAL Redbird car or a replica of one, car #9056, to Washington, D.C to showcase the car as a #7 "International Express" subway car. I don't know the details, but that's all I know...how vague that was, though it was pretty funny...seeing a NYC subway car in D.C.! Anyone else saw that report? (It was on the 6:00 Channel 7 Eyewitness News.)
CWalNYC
MTA_NYCT_Redbird_#9056
It was indeed R-33 9056. The New York Daily News had a photo in its print edition today.
David
Do you know the entire story with that car? I only know tidbits.
CWalNYC
R33_#9056
Sorry, I don't know any more than was in the paper. Perhaps another SubTalker knows and will tell us?
David
We discussed this in an earlier thread today. R33 9056 is a Mainline car, not a World's Fair car. That is, the Redbird they are using to represent the Flushing line wasn't used on the Flushing line.
There were some mainline cars (9000's, IIRC) that did appear on the Flushing line a few years ago (I forgot exactly why). This whole thing could be redeemed if it can be shown that that was one of them.
Folk Fest starts Wednesday, 27 Jun till 7Jul. The R33 will be open to the public and a real live NYCT conductor will be spinning tales of NYC riders.
Oh ya, a bagel maker, a stockbroker, a watertower maker, a Broadway play hat maker will be here (I live in the DC area, Lived my first 19 years in the Lower East Side). Looking forward to some real NYC food (maybe an Egg Cream drink).
BTW I did not see any power source going to 9056, so the car will be dark. Too bad as I was looking forward to a few night shots with the Captiol building one way, and the Washington thingamajug the other way.
Where in DC is this being held???
It's on the "MALL" (large grassy area) next to the Smithsonian Metrorail entrance. You can't miss it.
Virginia Division BMT
gotta go see it next week, what else is there? I mean train wise, I know what is on the mall
How about the only gallery cars in the east? VRE ex CNW Pullman Built. Plus the Japanese built bi-level. The Rail Hall in the Smithsonian has not added anything major (except for a tea kettle) since the 60's, but the model of the 2nd/3rd Ave El station is worth looking at.
BTW, daily sign up for stickball during the Folklife Fest at 4PM.
On the Mall starting Wednesday. Anyone know either
a. the Smithsonian's website or the site about the festival?
b. when all the exhibits will be "open"?
Thanks, in advance.
Here's the link to the festival.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I found it on my own (finally). Thanks.
If the purpose of the car's display is to be
a "representation of the International Express"
(the 7 Train)... why not send a 7-line Redbird
rather than a r-33 redbird from the 2 line...
I love REDBIRDS as much as the next fellow,
but if you're out to represent the International
7 Express Line.. do it correctly.. and give
the deserving REDBIRD car model it's deserving
appropriate representation.
This is similar to sending a minor league player
to a media press conference claiming he is 'from
the NY Yankees'... but then again, ain't much
difference between the Yankees and Minor Leaguers...
Redbird is a Redbird is a Redbird is an Icon in DC.
I hope to be there. I have to ask for the day off. Anyways i am a Docent for the museum(A volunteer tour guide). I think us volunteers get a ride for free. I will let you know what goes down. Speaking of which, I believe the Transit museum is preparing the train for next sunday. I was there today
[I think us volunteers get a ride for free.]
No you'll have to WORK .... orange vest ... step this way ladies & gentelmen. No railfan window for you :-(
But you may be able to get on the train early or ride it into the yard while the customers are having lunch ... talk to your colleagues at the Museum & enjoy the trip !!!!
Mr t__:^)
I decided to buy myself a new Shirt. I brought the A shirt. I took the 7 to the downtown 2 today. What made it interesting, is to know that my friend, a 7 line Motorman, actually took the same train for one round trip from Main street to times square and back. When i got off at Times square, he changed ends and went back. Anyways I got on the downtown 2. Surprising it was a R142. it was 6310 funny, because this is the first one i rode on the 2 when they made their debut. 6310 i keep running into. Funny enuf it doesn't make that alienish sound anymore during takeoff after a station stop. After leaving the museum i didn't feel like going back thru Manhattan. So I took the A to the J back to Jamaica Center. Funny this R44 5316 reached 48! I knew the A was fast, but whoa!
rode 6425? I think , not sure of the number, wasn't the operating motor though, quite crowded on saturday goin' downtown, clock worked along with announcments!!
In case anyone wants to rap with me at the nostalgia train, here's a pic. Hope you haven't eaten recently. ;)
You should put that image on your Christmas cards this year. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
UGLY ? That depends on what car class the picture was taken.
R-62 or R-68 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think it's time for the first SubTalk Photo Caption Contest...
I'll submit -- "Look Mister, I said I want the whole wallet, not just your MetroCard"
CG
'Ya' Betta Be Packin' A Metrocard
If Ya Wanna Get Past Me And Out
This Here Door...'
'Never Forget Who Brought You
To The (r62) Dance...'
'Metrocard... Don't Leave Train
Without It..'
I Card, Therefore I Ride..'
:)
"Now since I stole this kid's Metrocard I will start Changing the Do not hold doors signs"
'Mirabella's My Name... Metrocard Is No Riding Shame.'
:)
>>> SubTalk Photo Caption Contest <<<
"You talkin' to me??"
Tom
"What did you just say about the R32?"
"I HAD LUNCH AT WHITE CASTLE AN HOUR AGO, WANNA START SOMETHING ?"
Bill "Newkirk"
<>
"you'll meet more friends riding with us...MTA New York City Transit"
This would make a nice ad campaign for the subways - photos of all sorts of crazy subway riders holding metrocards. They could even put an expired card in the hand of a bum sleeping on the train... hehe!
"MTA: Going MY way."
Dan
LOL !!! ........!!!!
A face only a mother could love...on payday .
Tony Looks like A Mobster!
Why don't we have a photo contest for best/worst/funniest/whatever pictures of Subtalkers in the following categories:
1) Inside or by a subway car.
2) Inside or by another transit vehicle.
3) Anything else helarious (whose picture ruins the most computer monitors).
My entry, except for number three (it broke the scanner), can be found at:
Try this first:
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/wobit/htm/misc/photocont.html
Try this if the first link doesn't work:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/htm/misc/photocont.html
-Robert King
FAST Robert Pic. outstanding Sure would hate to dart out between two cars and be hit by that PCC
I got a friend to take that picture at the end of a fan trip on the PCC when we arrived back at the carhouse on the ladder track, which is actually located off street althought right beside it (Eastern Ave.) so there wasn't too much of a risk of being hit by a car.
There also wasn't much risk of being hit by the PCC itself because the driver was not inside it having his picture taken too:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/images/may13_pcc_charter/medium/ray_madden_and_pcc_on_eastern_angle2.jpg
-Robert King
Robert, I once looked like you (tall & skinny), then my wife fattened me up. Enjoyed your photo !
Mr t__:^)
on the 2 line,car number 6430 was attacked with sky blue spray paint. graffitti. in big letters it said KANO TAT TVS. it is horrible. i hope the next mayor steps up laws to stop vandalism like they did in toronto. because the cars on the 2 line have empty space on the walls, this is gonna happen often ( i hope not) hopefully it will be gone by tomorrow.
How about citizens given the authority to kill these animalistic punks. They can spell with grafitti, but can't speel their names on the top of a test paper. Idiots. This country has no future.
>>>This country has no future.<<<
Yeah, you're SOOOO right. Everyone knows it's those grafitti thugs who wield all the power in this country.
I think we should flog these vandals who destroy and mess up our trains. As Devo would say, "Whip it".
1) How many of those high speed Bombardier trainsets are running ?
2) The old standard Amfleet cars had the standard type seating, while the Amfleet Metroliner cars had the wider seating.
What happened to those Metroliner Amfleets ? Did they get the narrower seating to become the new ACELA Regional service ?
Bill "Newkirk"
1) How many of those high speed Bombardier trainsets are running ?
Currently 8 trainsets are in revenue service. You can look at the roster here.
2) The old standard Amfleet cars had the standard type seating, while the Amfleet Metroliner cars had the wider seating.
What happened to those Metroliner Amfleets ? Did they get the narrower seating to become the new ACELA Regional service ?
Metroliner Amfleet cars will definitely be rebuilt. What kind of rebuilt car turned out to be depends on the need in Acela Regional and Commuter services.
Chaohwa
I was riding 6311-20 this evening and was chatting with the T/O he told me now kids like to kick the doors and leave black shoe marks all over the T/O door,the conductor door and the passenger door.he told this started recently and its done throughout the entire train I dont know if anyone has noticed it or not the train I was on, it had shoe marks through most of the train its a damn shaame.
I don't know if it's kids liking to kick the door, rather probably people, who when stepping in and out of a crowded train kick the door accidentally..
These kick marks are high up on the doors, like karate kicks and along the walls saw a group of NYPD cops getting on a train last night hopefully they catch some of them!!
This set also had some Srachfitty in the metel parts of the inside body.
Sorry if I miss spelled srachfitty.
Robert
These kids are outta control. I personally can't stand what they are doing to the system. These kids need some real tough punishment. Flogging may not even be enough, perhaps boot camp will straighten them out.
Maybe someone should kick those kids in the butt while they're wearing a pair of heavy leather boots. Maybe that will teach them. I would be willing to do it since I own a pair of heavy leather boots.
BMTJeff
Reminds me of an incident involving my older son a few years ago, while he was wearing his steel-toed boots... the young fellow who attacked him won't ever have to worry about paying child support...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He must have been kicked in the you know what.
BMTJeff
Yes. My older son, who was then in high school in our rural North Carolina home community, was defending a negro friend of his who had been attacked by another white student in a racially-motivated incident. My son has never been one to start trouble but will defend his principles and his friends by whatever means necessary; this renegade senior thought he could get away with punching out a scrawny sophomore, and didn't count on my son coming to his friend's rescue. The senior dropped out before he could be expelled, and the police declined to file charges against anyone involved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Umm...sir, I'm sure you don't mean any harm but these days the word "negro" is somewhat archaic and could even be considered demeaning. When the word negro was in heavy usage, blacks held mostly servantile jobs and had their own water fountains and bathrooms. Now, I know it is impossible to keep up these days with what is acceptable and what is not but this piece of advice might save you some trouble in the future when you address someone as a "negro".
Negro means black in Spanish. Many of the great civil-rights leaders of this century fought to use the word negro over colored, and used the word. Ever heard or read one of Martin Luther King's speeches?
Negro was the word that was used when the civil and voting rights act was passed and ushered in the beginning of the end for legally-sanctioned discrimination in America.
As for you, I'm sick of politcal correctness. It has no place in society and it must be stopped at all costs. It is akin to thought policing.
What does matter what it means in spanish? It has meaning in English. If you don't like PC, I'm sorry that sensitivity doesn't rank high on your priorities. And last I checked, it wasn't 1964.
There's a difference between being sensitive to other people, and using modern newspeak. I refuse to do the latter, political correctness is as welcome in the world as flesh-eating bacteria.
When the word negro was in heavy usage, blacks held mostly servantile jobs and had their own water fountains and bathrooms.
Back in those days we used the term "colored" down where I call home (North Carolina); of course, some folks used other, more derogatory terms, and a few (like the kid who jumped my son's friend) still do. Nowadays, when I'm in New Jersey, I hear the term "black" used to refer to the drug-dealing scum in Asbury Park, while "negro" is used to refer to the well-respected full-bird Colonel from Ft. Monmouth who lives diagonally across the street from me.
And as an added point - we are Jews who, because we are not afraid to stand up for what we believe, have dealt with numerous threats and have had crosses burned on our lawn on three occasions, most notably when I chaired the student reassignment task force after the merger of the 80% black Franklinton City Schools into the 68% white Franklin County School System in 1995. (The resulting county-wide balance was 56% white, 42% negro, 2% other [mostly Hispanic].)
So you're absolutely right, I don't mean any harm.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder, does that Colonel consider himself a well-respected negro? Maybe you should ask him.
I wonder, does that Colonel consider himself a well-respected negro? Maybe you should ask him.
Why? Neither one of us care a whit about what color or faith the other one is. I've helped him troubleshoot his Christmas lights (he puts up some real snazzy ones) and fixed some plumbing problems in his basement; he's helped me quite a bit with my ornamental shrubbery (about which I know less than nothing). The only time we discuss color is when one of us asks the other what color we'd like the center of our steak, or if we'd prefer light or dark beer with it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You contradict yourself.
"The only time we discuss color is when one of us asks the other what color we'd like the center of our steak"
Or when you address him as your negro friend
He has to describe him as his negro friend, otherwise it wouldn't make sense. How would you know if his friend was relevant to the discussion? He only mentioned his flesh tone to satisfy you.
But I don't expect any intelligence from a PC-thug.
You do your name justice
You do your name justice
You mean the name of one of the most intelligent and evolved creatures in the animal kingdom? well thank you for the compliment.
You however should spend less time napping.
Did you ever think that nappy chose his handle for a different reason that is not related to napping?
BMTJeff
Did you ever think that nappy chose his handle for a different reason that is not related to napping?
I'd thought that too, and wondered if there were some racial connotations in his choice of handle.
Interesting that you made that statement but I don't think that there were racial connotations in choosing his handle.
BMTJeff
I don't know. I agree that I think he chose his handle for a different reason that is not related to napping.
American Pig
Perhaps he installs carpets?
Perhaps he sells shoes, door to door. Oooooh, but then it would be spelled "KNAPPY"
Which raises an interesting point. For most here our handles have some personal significance. Yours is interresting. Do you suffer from narcolepsy?
Which raises an interesting point. For most here our handles have some personal significance. Yours is interresting. Do you suffer from narcolepsy? (asked of nappy)
Or Napoleon syndrome (delusions of grandeur)? :)
Hehe, now this is funny. You two reveal more about yourselves than you realize. But to my pig friend, ignorance is bliss.
But to my pig friend, ignorance is bliss.
My, I can't even imagine what kind of blissful state you live in!
Let me chime into this discussion ... as some might know from my SubTalk postings, I'm a sworn enemy of political correctness. It would be my extreme pleasure if it vanished into the atmosphere like dust. But: going back to what started this thread, I'll freely acknowledge that the use of the term "Negro," today in 2001, outside of the Deep South (and maybe even there) is, if not exactly offensive, not quite right.
The substitution of "black" for "Negro" (or worse) is not a recent p.c. development, in fact it's a process that began at least 25 to 30 years ago and has been more or less complete for well over a decade. I cannot remember the last time I heard a person say or write "Negro" unless he or she was trying to make a specific sociopolitical point.
Another way of looking at the situation is to consider the speaker's or writer's likely motivation. "Black" has long since become a neutral descriptive word. Contrast it to, say, "physically challenged" or "Native American" or even, to a lesser extent, "African American." Anyone who uses one of those terms in speech or informal writing is either trying to make a sociopolitical point or is trying very hard (probably too hard) not to offend. "Black" bears no such emotional baggage.
For an equivalent, consider the term used to describe the type of woman (in racial terms) with whom Qtraindash7 is infatuated. "Asian" has more or less replaced "Oriental," but in a politically neutral manner. "Asian" has become the preferred term and can be used without making any political points - it's merely the common descriptive word, no more, no less. And so it is with "black."
To digress a bit, one term that I have trouble classifying in political terms is "Latino." I usually thought of it as a p.c. version of the term "Hispanic," and for that reason do not use it myself. I have recently found out, however, that the Latino-vs.-Hispanic issue is at least in part regional; "Hispanic" is the common term here in the northeast, while in California and some other places "Latino" prevails. I don't believe there's any geographical issue as far as "Negro" or "black" or "African American" is concerned with the possible exception of the Deep South.
My beef is not with using the word black (that is the word I use if I need to), but with those who object to using a word because of political correctness, which I hate as much as you do. I would never use negro myself, but that's just a matter of preference.
If I had it my way, I'd never need to use the word to begin with. Classifying people by the color of their flesh is one of the most preposterous practices in modern society.
Economic status and _age_ are kinda up there too ... just a thought. And yeah, a cascade of Orwellian doublespeak only makes things worse. One thing I learned in the Bronx from folks that moved up from Georgia and Alabama was "down south, you KNEW who your enemies were - up here, they smile at your face, talk the talk and then stab you in the back." I never forgot that analogy. "PC" only serves to obscure it all further.
Nothing left to attack? Moving on to my name? How do you get narcolepsy from Nappy? Oh, the first two letters are the same.
Hey, don't be so defensive. Nappy - you know - taking naps !!!
Narcolepsy is a neurological disorder that causes people to fall asleep uncontrolably. Now do you see the connection?
And I was not attacking your name. You raised the issue with your statement about Pig's name. I was just following up. Ask me about mine if you wish........ I'm just a generally sweet guy with an inquisitive nature.
Is it true that Narcolepsy is common among transit workers north of 207th Street???
Just busting your chops, Steve. ;-D
Heh. Wrong borough, bro ... but they also forget to wear their nappies over there by St Nick's too over by the Bronx High School of Science and car maintenance ... surprised I am that nobody's figured out that a "nappy" is Brit for "diaper" ... hmmm ...
Good point Kev, considering there's probably a number of 'adult diaper' wearers amongst us.........;-D
I hear they're useful for negotiating the Canarsie timers. :)
LOL!
Um sir, do you think that the term 'Negro' is as offensive to a person of color as the term 'drunk' might be to a person who is doing nothing more than his job-correctly? LET HE WHO IS TOTALLY POLITICALLY CORRECT - HURL THE FIRST BARB.
You still mad about that? Get over it. If you look, I realized my error. We all on this board are quick to correct each other when we make a mistake. So I am doing my part as well.
Boy am I glad im not involved, getting the train Dude treatment is pretty harsh
Harsh? - I think not. I do, however, think we must be fair. Of all my friends that it might affect, none have ever said the term "negro" is offensive to them. Then again, it's rare that it ever comes up. But if the term negro can be considered offensive, my feeling is that the term 'drunk, might be equally offensive, especially if the subject were part of an ethinc group known for 'bending the elbow'. While I agree that we've gone too far with political correctness - it seems that some of us can learn to be a little more sensative.
>>> the word "negro" is somewhat archaic and could even be considered demeaning. <<<
Nappy;
I suspect that you are on the younger side of forty. I say this because those who were in the American Civil Rights Movement, never considered the word "Negro" as demeaning, nor even being called "Colored" (as in NAACP). The whites who used those words were often considered friends. Those who were enemies had a long list of names which thankfully are not heard much anymore.
If you find the term "Negro" demeaning, that is more your problem than that of the person using the term. I have never known any Afro American old enough to remember the bad old days to be offended by the word.
Tom
I have never known any Afro American old enough to remember the bad old days to be offended by the word.
I have to say that it makes more sense than African-American.
What about white South Africans, or people from Egypt?
What about all those Black people who are NOT US citizens?
My goodness. I'm going to do smart thing and exit this conversation. It's starting to deteriorate.
My goodness. I'm going to do smart thing and exit this conversation.
That would be the smart thing, this conversation was a lot better off before you chimed in.
It's starting to deteriorate.
Was this post scheduled to be posted two days ago, when you first joined this thread? Then yes, it has started to deteriorate then.
That senior got what he deserved for what he did.
BMTJeff
This isn't Australia.
We don't take that kind of crap here in the US, sir!
actually it just says how fucked up a society we are becoming teenagers especially. sorry for the harsh language
The best punishment: a monologue by Qtraindash7....:-D
BMTman
>>The best punishment: a monologue by Qtraindash7..
Quite the vision.... however,
Not a thing MYSTICAL about that!!
:>
I would think most of the marks come from people leaning on the doors with one foot up. I'm having problems seeing kids kicking doors. It's too easy to clean.
Nappy
I never could understand what causes people to put one foot onto a door while leaning on it. When they're at home leaning on a wall or something, do they put their feet on it? I've tried this position, it is highly uncomfortable.
Maybe they all got the idea from the old "Do Not Lean On Door" stickers with the picture of the guy with one foot on the door while leaning on it.
The R-142s should have gotten R-32 type doors, shoe marks are barely noticeable on them. Though maybe the new texture on the 142 doors makes it harder to scratch or easier to cover up scratches? They should have simply painted ém blue.
its all over the trains. they kick em' but atleast the mta can clean em when they take em back to the yards. at least it wasn't graffitti like what 6421-30 got in car 6430. it has been eliminated but still has blue streaks left from cleaning the graffitti off. hopefully, the next mayor will take more tasks on graffitti in trains and stations. in toronto, the youths start scratching T-1's and H-5's and 6's and the mayor and the TTC had a fit. the mayor made new extremely strict laws that made all of that stop. i hope the next mayor will do something similar unlike that shitty guliani (i hope his balls fall off)
Has any onwe forgotten about the ending of LIRR service to the Rockaways? June 8,1962 spelled the end for this line what a sad day.
Guilty as charged. Thanks for the reminder. Think it's time for a visit.
Once the gateway to the Rockaway penninsula, now the Enchanted Forest !
Bill "Newkirk"
Will be walking the entire track line all the way to the tunnel in Forrest Park, anyone interested, once again, e-mail me.
The tunnel under what in Forest Park ?
There is a reeeaally short tunnel @ white pot junction (where the rockaway branch left the LIRR main and ran south...) which was used to connect manhattan bound trains to the manhattan bound (northernmost) LIRR mainline tracks. The last I saw of it about a year or 2 ago, the north side of the tunnel was filled in with dirt, but the south side was still open (though you'd never find it if you didn't know it was there, given the large trees, etc..). The tunnel is pretty graffiti-covered, but still has it's tracks + third rail.
Seven - I might head back there - i'll let ya know once i know what's up (some press goons are bugging me to take them to an "exotic" location...)
A friend and I hang around there every summer and throw rocks at various points on the other side of the LIRR main (wooden poles, trees, the various rails just to hear that sound). The portal on the south side is most assuredly still there.
Thanks a lot I hope to see you at the Meeting on Wednsday I'll have our pics from Amtrak Freedom Tunnel and Glenwood power plant
Actually the last LIRR trains to the Rockaways (other than the Far Rockaway Station) was on October 3, 1955 when the el was taken over by the IND subway. (which opened June 28, 1956) All LIRR trains to the Rockaways from 1950 to 10/3/55 ran via the present day Far Rockaway Line since the trestle on the Rockaway Branch was destroyed by fire on May 8, 1950.
On the date you gave, 6/8/62, trains only went as far as Ozone Park,and at that time there was only one round trip per day with only one platform open at Ozone Park. From the date of the fire to 1955 trains went as far as the Hamilton Beach Station. From 1950 to 1955 the only trains that came from Flatbush and used the cutoff in Woodhaven from the Bklyn Line were Aqueduct Racetrack trains. Otherwise all trains after the fire to Hamilton Beach went from Penn via White Pot.
By the way, as an interesting aside, the LIRR sold the whole branch from White Pot eastward (actually southbound, but the LIRR called it east) to the transit authority in '55 who then leased the short route from White Pot to Ozone back to the LIRR. So the whole right of way is owned by the Transit Authority. A moot point now since the TA & the LIRR are both owned by the MTA.*
*Most of the above facts were taken from "Transfer at Ozone Park" by Herbert George 1993.
A moot point now since the TA & the LIRR are both owned by the MTA.
I'm not sure the point is moot. Unless something has changed, most of the NYCTA system is owned by The City of New York and leased to the TA. The Long Island Rail Road is owned by the State of New York. I don't know who owns the equipment. I'm not sure the MTA owns anything directly.
In some future political shuffle or interoperation arrangement, these issues could be significant.
Any way you slice it, its a wasted transit facility that could have been an excellent alternative to the Air Train.
Thanks to the NIMBY crowd. They cannot see the ocean because of all the water.
A 5 Car Corona Transfer has just appeared at my door. Consist was R36 9580-81, R33S 9311 (in the middle) , and R36 9582-83 heading northbound. What's this all about?
-Stef
Make that train number two that just came by my door. 6 9600 Series Cars have just northbound. Now I know something is brewing here. Heh. It's time to play Sherlock Holmes and do some investigating. Is there anyone who wants to volunteer as my trusty sidekick?
-Stef
Maybe the R-36WF's a replacing the Dyre Avenue fleet and the R-62A's are going to Corona? I see more and more R-142A's on Pelham line and one R-36WF thats been sitting on the same spot all week with the bulk head readiing Main Street and the side roll signs for Dyre Avenue.two cars of R-36WF's in the yard right across from the East 180th Station.also observed a R-36WF in service on Pelham.With all the R-36WF's over here.I keep hearing how the Flushing line is so unbearable with overcrowding, why the R-36's keep popping up at Unionport Yard?
It shouldn't include any R33WF, although one popped up in a consist.
-Stef
I hope that the deadbirds go to the 5 and the 7 gets at least a few pairs of the r62's. i can't stand the birds nomore. too many jeky sounds and motion. also, are the r62's quieter than the deadbirds?
The R-62s are in five-car sets and likely won't be going to the #7 line (can't divide eleven-car trains into two five-car units). Much more likely is that R-62As (same basic body as the R-62s, but with electrical/mechanical/pneumatic equipment provided by different manufacturers) will be assigned there, since some of the R-62As have been left as single units.
The R-62 and R-62A cars are quieter inside than "Redbirds," as they are insulated better.
David
"The R-62s are in five-car sets and likely won't be going to the #7 line (can't divide eleven-car trains into two five-car units)."
So what is to prevent running a five car set coupled with 3 married pairs. Make a nice 11 car train.
Elias
What prevents running a five-car set plus three married pairs is that there aren't any married pairs! I suppose the five-car sets could be returned to single-unit status (and some could subsequently be paired up), but it hardly seems worth the effort.
It should also be noted that there aren't enough R-62s to provide all #7 service.
David
Two five-car units plus a single? Aside from some coupling work involved, this takes zero effort.
Mark
The poster I was responding to suggested using married pairs -- which don't exist in the R-62 fleet.
David
i don't want all the r62A's on the 7 now. I at least want like 5 pairs
Five pairs of what? R-62As aren't arranged in pairs. They come either as individual cars or as five-car units.
Five trainsets (out of a fleet requirement of 32) wouldn't be very noticed by anybody except railfans.
David
it would seem likely that as 142a's come to the 6 line the pelham r62a's which are 5 car married units move to 7 line with several Livonia r 62a (single unit) to form the 11 car consist. 2 5 car units with a single unit somewere in the consist to form an 11 car train.
>>> i can't stand the birds nomore. too many jeky sounds and motion. <<<
Turn in your railfan card, you have just been demoted to subway rider. :-)
Tom
Anyone get reports of another 142 being delivered? I need my ritalin now. A single diesel followed by a duo with an elderly R14 in tow was on the move a few moments ago. Quick! Someone give me my ritalin.
-Stef
Need Ritalin??
....Oh Thank Heaven For 7-11....
"Quick! Someone give me my ritalin."
Ritalin! Maybe you mean Prozac !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Folks:
A lot of people have written about Mr. Touissant's comments that the EE,GG,& N all provided simuletaneous local service on Queens Boulevard. Meaning absolutely no disrespect to anyone, Mr. Touissant included, I'd like to state that that never happened.
The GG was the original local, from when the line opened in the 1930s, then a connection to the BMT's 60th Street tunnel was made around 1955. That service was named the EE in 1967, at the same time the Chrystie Street line was opened. From 1967 until August 1976, local service was provided by the EE & GG only. The N terminated at all times at 57th/7th Avenue, running expressin Manhattan.
In August 1976, the EE was abolished, and the N extended to 71 St/ Continental on weekdays only. Druing Rush hours, the N provided 2 services- from 71/Continental to Coney Island via the Manhattan Bridge, and another service from 71/Continental to Whitehall Street, running local in Manhattan.
I have maps from 1974, showing the EE & GG only on the Queens Blvd local, and 1978 maps showing the N service I just described. I also personally remember these patterns, and I'm sure addtional confirmation could be found on the "Joekorner" site.
We all feel the TA could provide more serrvice than they do (what about re-openiong the connection from the 6th Avenue line to the Broadway Brooklyn line?), but we should also keep our history accurate here.
The N did not terminate at all times at 57th/7th.
It was a shuttle during overnight hours to 36th/4th, Brooklyn from Coney Island.
That midnight shuttle started during another slew of service cuts, IIRC, in 1977. Prior to its extension to Continental in 1976, the N ran 24/7 from Coney Island to 57th/7th.
Very correct.
Roger Touissant is a politician. He does what is needed to "stay in office." The good news is that his ranting will help keep the need for new rolling stock in front of everyone. The bad news is you need to know when he's not telling the truth and decide what the impact of his lies are.
Agreed, that's the way I remember it.
You're absolutley correct. The EE and N NEVER ran in Queens at the same time. No more than 2 different lines ever ran on the Queens IND local at the same time.
On Thursday, I was on a Q Train that went over the F line! I saw it on the local track at 34th Street, so I got on it, just to see what it would do. The conductor said the next stop would be West Fourth Street, but it stopped at 23rd and 14th Streets. Then, they said the train would make "all F stops to Stillwell Avenue." However, after leaving Smith-Ninth Streets, we switched to the express track (even though the conductor said Fourth Avenue would be next). We went express to Kings Highway, but they discharged passengers there (but this time the conductor actually said that Kings Highway would be the last stop back at 18th Avenue).
The best thing about it was that I was able to go to the front car and see out the front window. I also briefly met the dispatcher at Kings Highway, who was telling the motorman that the train would be used for uptown service again, or something like that. I am therefore not complaining (except for having to get off at Kings Highway). I just think that when a train is making a stop at a station, the conductor should accurately announce the next stop.
Does anyone here have any idea why the Q Train went along the F line? It looked like there was another Q train in front of us on the F line that also appeared to be going express and to terminate at Kings Highway? What was going on?
- Lyle Goldman
So you got to see the rarely used Culver "express" tunnels. What were they like?
They were pretty much like any other subway tunnels, as far as I could tell. There were too many Grade Time signals, though, and they slowed us down considerably. I don't remember going so slowly there.
- Lyle Goldman
As for the conductor announcing that the next stop would be W4th St. with the train operator actually stopping at 23rd & 14th, the train operator upon hearing the c/r's announcement at 34th, the c/r should have been corrected. Then again, perhaps AFTER the train left 34th, the tower told the t/o to stop at 23rd & 14th. I don't know what actually happened neither do you..........As for leaving Smith 9th, and the train got switched to the express track before 4th Ave. station, perhaps when the tower operator saw the train outside the station, he/she decided to put the train on the express track to get it out of the way of the following train as no G was relaying at the time. The tower operator cannot physically see a CI bound train at Smith 9th. Yes, it does make the crew look bad to a person who wanted to get off at 4th Ave., but the tower operator is in his "house", safe from the complaining passengers!. That the conductor announced at 18th Ave. that Kings Hwy. would be the last stop, obviously the tower operator at Church Ave. "spotted" that train to the dispatcher at Kings Hwy. and the crew was able to hear his transmission at 18th Ave. Unannounced changes happen to me quite often during the course of my workday on the E line. All my trips are supposed to be express east of Continental Ave. and many times without prior notice after I leave Jamaica/Van Wyck or Continental they put me on the local track without notifying me via radio prior.........As to the re-route via the F line, this happens quite often to B/D/Q trains. When this happens, there is a blockage of some sort for whatever reason somewhere between W.4th & DeKalb.
Lucky you.
As I posted a few months ago, I was once on a Q rerouted over the F due to a stabbing at Grand. Unfortunately, we ran local all the way, until the train abruptly went out of service at Kings Highway (the C/R had been announcing that we'd be making all F stops to Stillwell). IINM, after taking a short break, the train continued, without passengers, nonstop through Stillwell and back up the D to Brighton Beach. (I don't know why passengers weren't allowed to stay on; it annoyed me somewhat since that's exactly where I was going.) Behind my Q was a D with no passengers (I have pictures of both on the KH center track), but there didn't seem to be anything other than F's behind that D.
It's too bad there's no way to predict reroutings like these.
Usually, a B/D/Q will leave the main line at Ave. X and run thru the back of CIYD hooking up with the N tracks underneath Shore Pkwy into Stillwell Ave. station. If it stayed on the F line to Stillwell, a relay to Stillwell Yard would be required to get it back onto the Brighton line.
Ah, then I'm even more annoyed I wasn't permitted to stay on-board!
So by using this routing, it is possible for a train to get from the F to the D (and vice-versa) without reversing?
That is correct.
Okay, experts: how would a Manhattan-bound M running on the F get back "home"?
I've been informed that a number of such M's were spotted one afternoon rush hour last week.
Well today (or yesterday), Friday, 8 June 2001, was the day of my senior prom. Did I attend? No. Did I regret it? No.
I had been toying with the idea since freshman year, but the whole idea of the prom was never very appealing to me, so I just never bothered to sign up. I sure as hell didn't feel like spending $200 to participate in an organized, glorified ritual of social sadism, because that's really what it is. I've always had that bit of anti-socialism in me.
But ANYWAY, I had a very nice "Prom Alternate" today! God must have been on my side, because I was blessed with an absolutely perfect day weatherwise. As the name of a Bill Withers song, it was a "Lovely Day", or in the words of Lloyd Lindsey Young (remember him from UPN-9???) it was a real "bell ringer"!
So I made sure I took advantage of it.
Seniors were excused from school at 12:05 PM, so after hanging outside the front for a few minutes mingling with this one and that one, I jumped in my friend's car (him and another, both of whom were not attending prom), and we drove around the school a few times while I smoked an unfiltered Camel (I don't inhale) and eventually picked up 2 other seniors also not going. Then he dropped me at my house (by this time it was about 12:30). I had plans with some other freinds later in the evening, so I had about 6-7 hours to kill. I don't know if I killed them, but I sure as hell beat the crap out of them!
Here's how it went:
-NJ Transit bus #92 to Franklin Avenue Terminal
-Newark Subway to Penn Station
-PATH to Journal Square
-(purchased coffee and bottle of water)
-CUSA bus #10 to 4th Street, Bayonne
-Walked over Bayonne Bridge - I was the ONLY person walking over the bridge. I didn't see a single soul except of course for vehicular traffic. When I reached Staten Island and walked past the tollbooths, one of the toll collectors did a double-take when he saw me! (what, you mean people actually walk this bridge?!)
-TA bus S46 to St. George Terminal
-Big Yellow Boat to Manhattan (Gov. Herbert H. Lehman). I stood at the front of the vehicle level the whole trip. The lovely sea breeze blowing in my face and the mild but warm sunlight beaming down . . . sweet ride, man (or should I say, "smooth sailing" . . . forget it).
-M15 Limited to Fulton St/South St. Seaport
-Lunch break at Pier 17 mall (what else - the Greek food vendor!)
-After strolling the grounds for a while, I proceeded west on Fulton to Broadway, turned up, cut through City Hall Park, then walked over the Brooklyn Bridge. Continued onto Cadman Plaza and to the Court Street subway station.
-R Train to Cortlandt Street
-PATH to Newark
-NJT #72 bus to Broad St, near Brookdale Apartments in Bloomfield
-Walked to Bloomfield Middle School
-At this point, I attended a rehearsal of the Bloomfield Youth Band, of which several of my friends are members. Following the rehearsal (around 9 PM), I spent about 30-45 minutes mingling with them, even ran into a girl I haven't seen since 8th grade! Nice girl (in more ways than one), but unfortunately, she, um, how do I put this . . . she "likes females". Oh well. But we did reminisce about 8th grade, how we used to annoy and tease each other to no end, et al.
Then afterwards, after I learned that a get-together at this guys house had been cancelled (due to the fact that he had a youth group trek into the backhills of the Pocono Mountains where they have to beat each other mercilessly with metal pipes . . . don't ask . . .(!)), I decided to make a nighttime round into the city.
SO . . .
-Boarded DeCamp bus #33 around 10:00 PM, to PABT
-At the PA, I went underground and boarded an uptown #2 train (R142!), running express on the local track. Got off at 72nd, walked down to 59th, boarded a southbound #1 train to Times Square, boarded a #7 train, got off at Queensboro Plaza, reversed direction and arrived at Times Square at just about midnight.
-Walked on street level to the PABT
-Boarded DeCamp bus #32/88 combined service at 12:15 AM, returning home at just after 1 AM.
It was kinda nice being out that late, and hopefully this summer, I'll get a chance to ride the subways all night long, maybe even do a round trip or 2 on the SI Ferry, especially around sunrise.
Hey, I'm 18 now, so my parents can bitch and moan all they want! Besides, if they don't ask, why volunteer information . . . ;-)***
***NOT AN ADVOCATION FOR THE YOUNGER SUBTALKERS. I MEANT IT MOSTLY IN A JOKING WAY. PLEASE RESPECT YOUR PARENTS AND DO NOT DO ANYTHING FOOLISH, BECAUSE IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO YOU AND YOUR PARENTS DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, GETTING A VERBAL LASHING OR YOUR PHONE TAKEN AWAY MAY BE THE LEAST OF YOUR PROBLEMS!!!!!!!
Now my prom was a week ago. If you really wanted to be anti-social, you could have gone and bellyached the whole time, thus making everyone else's evening unpleasant as some folks did at my prom:)
Well, it's nice to know there's another senior here. Class of 01!!!!!!
Are you going you school next year?
Well today (or yesterday), Friday, 8 June 2001, was the day of my senior prom. Did I attend? No. Did I regret it? No.
I had been toying with the idea since freshman year, but the whole idea of the prom was never very appealing to me, so I just never bothered to sign up. I sure as hell didn't feel like spending $200 to participate in an organized, glorified ritual of social sadism, because that's really what it is. I've always had that bit of anti-socialism in me.
I guess times have changed. When I was in my senior year of high school (1975), everyone went to the senior prom - not going was unthinkable. Of course, things were far cheaper back then, nothing at all like today's extravaganzas.
-Walked over Bayonne Bridge - I was the ONLY person walking over the bridge. I didn't see a single soul except of course for vehicular traffic. When I reached Staten Island and walked past the tollbooths, one of the toll collectors did a double-take when he saw me! (what, you mean people actually walk this bridge?!)
I've definitely got to try that someday. There's lots of shipping traffic under that bridge, more than any NYC-area bridge except the (unwalkable) Verrazano, and it must be quite a sight to see a huge ship pass underneath.
Then afterwards, after I learned that a get-together at this guys house had been cancelled (due to the fact that he had a youth group trek into the backhills of the Pocono Mountains where they have to beat each other mercilessly with metal pipes . . . don't ask
Heh, I've just got to ask.
Walkway on the Bayonne is closed until the deck rehab is finished. When it's been open, it's busy. Not Brooklyn Bridge busy, but busy.
And have you considered getting a life outside of transit buffing?
-Hank
Closed? Then they must have put up invisible barricades, because I had no trouble at all getting on or off it. And, well, I'm still here, nice and dry so how bad could it have been?
And yes I do have a life besides transit riding, thanks for asking.
Whatever works for you should suit the rest of the world fine. I guess what I've heard about social life in smaller high schoold confirms your sadism ideas, I'm glad now I went to Taft in the Bronx where one made their own friends then got lost in the big student body if they wished. I don't know how big your school was though.
When I was your age people would say "you still play with trains?' I'd say I operate a model RR. Now their doctor and lawyer sons are buying all the most expensive stuff and have beautiful collections!
Everything is relative. Be happy and enjoy life howver it works. Big ed Taft 196l.
I'm glad now I went to Taft in the Bronx where one made their own friends then got lost in the big student body if they wished.
That is something to be glad about. Higher densities lead to higher freedom. What can you do anonymously if everyone knows your name?
All this garbage about Verrazano and Bayone being unwalkabale is Bullshit, I beg to differ.
Bravo !!!!! It certainly was great weather and a great weekend for you to do whatever you wanted. I'm sure that just about every subtalker - at least here on the east coast, had the same great weather and also had to make a choice as what activities to participate in and which ones to skip - just like you did. I doubt that too many regret the choices that they made - regretting only that the weekend was so short. Having said that, what is the significance of the first 4 paragraphs of your post?
Having said that [this was a great weekend], what is the significance of the first 4 paragraphs of your post?
Because it isn't good writing when one goes directly to the body of their composition without introducing it. This is an example of that.
and we drove around the school a few times while I smoked an unfiltered Camel
Wow, you're one wild guy :)
and we drove around the school a few times while I smoked an unfiltered Camel
Why did the camel have to die? :-)
Two days ago,I was riding the 1/9 uptown from Christopher Street around 9:45am. I got on the train and the conductor said "Broadway local,next stop 14 street" Huh? In my book the 1/9 is the 7th Ave local. At first I thought it was a mistake but he kept saying "broadway local" at every stop till I got off at 28th st. So I go to then ask him if he is sure thisis the broadway local. He says yeah. I think he had to be drunk. Or just dumb
That's quite a strong accusation, saying someone is drunk just because they call the #1/9 the Broadway local.
If you look at the maps, it IS the Broadway local.
You sure YOU weren't drunk when you were posting this????
Everyone who works in the IRT calls the 1 the Broadway local. It does spend more time travelling under (and over) Broadway than any other train making local stops.
Did the conductor seem to slur his words? If he did chances are quite good that he was drunk or on drugs.
BMTJeff
A better question would be 'Did nappy ever bother to look at a map?'
-Hank
The #1/9 line IS the Broadway local. Aside from a few diversions in the extreme north of Manhattan onto 10th Ave. and Nagle Ave, the line travels over/under Broadway all the way down to Times Sq. In fact, the #1/9 line only travels via 7th Ave for a brief time, from Times Sq. to around 10th St, where it shifts to Varick St.
Probably both.
E_DOG
Why not LOOK AT A MAP!
-Hank
for the majority of the 1/9 it is a B'way local from 50th st north. 42nd street south via 7th ave
Actually, you're both right. The 1/9 is known as the Broadway/7th Avenue Local. Officially, the title of Broadway Local goes to the N and R. But for the majority of its run, the 1/9 operates down Broadway. So I guess the 1/9 could also be called Broadway Local.
I think you 2 guys have some hell of a nerve calling this conductor drunk simply because you didn't like the idea of him announcing the 1/9 train as the 7th Ave. local. Get a life and grow up. May you have both have jobs for the rest of your lives dealing with the general public and see what it's like to be verbally and sometimes physically abused.
Ewww. Alright, so I made a mistake. My bad. I don't ride the 1/9 much uptown. Damn. Don't worry though, I didn't hit him or anything. Actually, the conversation went rather nice. Even so, I should be beaten and flogged for character assasination and a dogmatic assertion of ignorance. However, IMHO, even if the line IS the Broadway local (above times square), announcing this under 7th ave might confuse those who are not as familiar with the subway as we all pride ourselves in being.
Nah, they'd only require it for 42 and 34 ... south of there it's FASHION AVENUE which'll really screw up las touristas ... we won't even go into "West Broadway" or Varick or along Greenwich St ... there's only a handful of stops actually on 7th, so for sanity's sake, it IS called the "Broadway local" since it does 16 stops on Broadway before it goes to St Nicholas, Nagle and back onto Broadway again to 242 ... jerrymandering at your service. Auguste Belmont knew how to play confuse a cat ...
Well it is a little interesting that the #1/9 is the Broadway-7th Ave Local, while the #2 & #3 is just the 7th Ave Express even though it also runs express via Broadway.
No one ever said that uniformity was a requisite-te-te-te-te-te for working for TA management.
Especially in MY days there ... pants were optional. Then again, I was working for the brain trust that thought Chrystie Street was going to change the world. And for the better. The guys who bought the 46's. :)
Saw a small piece on Channel 7's 11PM newscast. Showed a short segment with the car being off-loaded at the Washington Mall.
It is CLEARLY car # 9056 a mainline redbird not a World's Fair Car.
It is my feeling that the World's Fair cars lost their uniqueness once the aqua/white livery was painted over during the graffiti scourge. While some could argue that their panoramic windows still make them unique, I don't, since you have to look hard at the windows to see the difference which most people won't do.
WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO JACK?
Who was Jack?
A Subtalker (Duh!)
I have been reading these posts and would like to know, when they showed the R33 being delievered, where was it being delivered to? The Mall or somewhere else? The festival does not start until the 27th of June which is why I am surprised to hear it is on the Mall so soon.
It was very hard to tell where they delivered it to. The video only ran about 15 seconds. It showed the car being lifted by a crane and a fellow with a hard-hat guiding it via a rope. The shot was taken on an angle so that you could see the front and right side. Based on the camera angle and the fact that the car took up most of the screen, it was hard to see the background but it appeared to be a park as opposed to an industrial/rail yard area.
That could very well be the Mall...
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
June 10, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
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I just finished a coupler conversion on an MTH Subway Set for a friend. This time it was a four car E train. I had previously done a six car D train for another friend.
On a six car train you have to replace 4 couplers, on a four car train you only have to replace 2. Naturally you don't have to change the front coupler on the power car or the the rear coupler on the last car.
The dummy couplers are $3.00 each from MTH, Replacing the operating couplers with dummies results in an equal and more prototypical space between all cars in either a four or six car train. Unfortunately I still do not know the correct MTH part number for the dummy coupler.
The conversion can be made without disassembling the car.
When the "V" & "W" lines debut will they have a supervisor just like all the other lines?
[When the "V" and "W" lines debut, will they have a supervisor just like all the other lines?]
My guess is that the assignments of Line Superintendent will resemble whatever was in effect during the first iteration of Broadway-only service on the Manny-B.
However, it I were in charge of such things, I'd reassign current superintendents as follows:
Current B Superintendent: W
Current D Superintendent: B, D, Grand Street Shuttle
Current F Superintendent: F, V
Current Q Superintendent: Q-circle, Q-diamond, Franklin Shuttle
All other Superintendents: Unchanged
To repeat - the above is nowhere near official, and it's probably nowhere near accurate; it reflects only AN IDEA, based solely on MY OWN CONTEMPLATIONS. Once the full service patterns become effective, all of us will find out who controls what.
And one more thing; it's not a subway, it's a "V" & "W".
You guys would be amused to know that the "V" line has had a line sup't since they qualified the t/o's on the 63rd St. line.
I don't know what's scarier. The fact that the V line has a superintendent, or the fact that the line supt. of the G/R got promoted to General Supt. of Control Center. Yikes!
At my MBTA commuter rail Station there is this Yellow sign with black letters That says D.I.B. What is it for?
Delay in Block. I believe it means that a train that stops at the station where the sign is posted must proceed at restricted speed through that block, until the next signal is in sight and its aspect can be ascertained and followed.
Believe that was initiated after a commuter train hit Amtrak around Wash DC in 1996. Since the "big" railroads don't have a leaving signal at all station stops even if the last signal was "clear" you could have things change while you're stopped.
The rule existed long before the collision but use of it was extended afterwards, as ..read...train comes in on a clear [green] signal; next signal is an interlocking/CTC control point. The route is changed but in between the engineer/motorman doesn't get a yellow to show the home signal [called in some areas...or whatever] went red. Engineer proceeds as normal for prior signal being green, finds home, interlocking, or call as you will, signals red with a conflicting move and a collision and death results.
BTW there had once been a signal after the station stop that due to economy moves by making blocks longer, fewer signal, etc had been removed.
So DIB means apply the rule for having stopped in a block or IIRC yor speed was reduced below 10 MPH as well. It's been a few years since my last rules exam but IIRC restricted speed wasn't required in CTC territory, in ABS [except in interlockings]it was. IIRC you had to keep down to 40 MPH until you could see the next signal and be governed accordingly. Restricted speed means below 20 MPH and watching for another train ahead, broken rail, switch improperly ligned, any on track equipment including MOW, any stop signals etc.
Outside of CTC or Interlocking territory opposing trains can enter the block you're in.
"The rule existed long before the collision but use of it was extended afterwards, as ..read...train comes in on a clear [green] signal; next signal is an interlocking/CTC control point. The route is changed but in between the engineer/motorman doesn't get a yellow to show the home signal [called in some areas...or whatever] went red. Engineer proceeds as normal for prior signal being green, finds home, interlocking, or call as you will, signals red with a conflicting move and a collision and death results."
Meaning the engineer approaches the Red signal at too high a speed to obey it and stop in time?
That's exactly what it means. Of course my own opinions are that in rapid transit or suburban service there should be a leaving signal at any place where station stops are made. But the RR's do what is cheaper.
Great explanation, thanks Big Ed. The MBTA Commuter Rail uses that fixed signal here (DIB) but since we have cab signaling the trains can resume indicated speed.
I have been riding the NY subways and els (all divisions) since 1950 as a kid w/ a parent and
since 1953-54 alone railfaning and whatever, including the old 3rd Ave. el in Manhattan and other
old el lines in Bklyn and Polo Ground shuttle - and BMT subways, the Lex-Jerome & White Plains & Dyre lines, Pelham, and BROADWAY IRT line - also took photos like crazy back then - Anyway - I have frequently heard the Broadway IRT Line local called the Broadway Local by both passengers, conductor
announcements (on the R-17-21 & etc. R-types when you could hardly understand those garbled PAsystems back then!) - and at station announcements esp.
when I rode the Hi-V trains (hated the GIBBS cars at front end when unlucky to have one there where the
twin-bulkhead"parlor doors" closed off the entire front platform to the MM only - usually waited for a standard or Deck Roof H-V as lead car of train!)
I experienced this Broadway Local moniker even thru the 60's and into early 70's by which time I had relocated out of N Y to Phily, Pa. Perhaps things and names of routes have become more antiseptic
and impersonal at the present time, but my old IRT
friends and I still call its the BROADWAY LOCAL - but I dont recall the EXPRESS running under Broadway (to the Bronx) back then being called the Broadway Exp. but rather called the "White plains Rd or Dyre
Ave - (after 1957 connection to IRT mainline at E.180 st)--EXPRESS" - so in defense of a couductor whose breath or appearance not any of us had
experienced re: this posting...I would give the man the benefit of the doubt and consider the history of the man in transit and his penchant for following old traditions just like people who still call the IRT and BMT "IRT & BMT" 60 years AFTER those lines ceased to be by takeover by the City in June 1940.
I rest my case! PS-- (Where are you "bigedirtman!!)
Joe, Is there any chance that you were taking pictures as early as 1950? Especially of the open platform BMT BU's in Brooklyn. I did not have a camera in those days, and am trying to find a picture of BMT 902.
You sound to be of the same generation as Ed, who incidently lives in Montana now.
Hi Karl
Yes - Ed was a MM on the NYCTA back when I was
a resident of NYC. As far as BRT / BMT El Motor Gate Car #902 per se, no luck - spent over 80 minutes going thru all BMT files, albums, pics - but do have photos of 900 series (ex-Kings County Center Door Pullman types ) with non-legible numbers but
DO have good pics of BRT/BMT Motor # 910 and 928
of the same as built group as # 902 - including good interior shot of that class car - what is your need for 902 specifically? Let me know your response.
That class of car Low 900 series) I think went out
in the mid/late 1940's after the City (6-1940) took BMT (& IRT) over and closed the Fulton St.El from
Rockaway Ave out to Boro Hall and the Sands Street
Complex on the Bklyn side of the Brooklyn Bridge.
The Bklyn 5th Ave & 3rd Ave (Bklyn - waterfront route!) closings around those times released cars.
The closing of the Lex Ave el in 1950 - as well as
elimination of wood el car shuttle trains on some
of the BMT Subway "elevated" extensions in off peak hours where subway trains were short-turned back to the city at an express station on the mid-point to
outer areas of Bklyn---on certain lines - (those BMT
wood el shuttle trains took you to the outer end of the line(s) ------all those abandonments / service eliminations made the oldest wood cars surplus -
and the car you looked for was in a small
group-class of only 37 cars (900 to 936) and I think photos of those cars AFTER 1950 are nix !!
PS - I didnt start taking pictures till the summer of 1953 - and mostly on IRT Lines in Manhattan & Bronx (includ. 3 ave el -a station was on the
corner of the Manhattan sidestreet I lived on -
150 feet from my doorway was the stairways on the
uptown side - it was my gateway to everywhere.)
I didn't start photographing Bklyn els until 1956-1957 onward - tho I rode them earlier - I was
an IRT man then (or kid) of course!!! (Branched out my interests in the late 50"s) Let me know if the pics I have will be of use - regards - Joe F
Thanks for all of the effort! I am really afraid it is a lost cause.
I spent the late winter of 1945 in bed with a chronic illness. My dad gave me a project to record all of the numbers of the green gate cars that went by my window on the Jamaica line to help me pass the time. In the spring, on my first day out of doors, my parents took me for a "gate train ride". We got on a three car train at Crescent St. The lead car in which we rode was 902, and was painted green. I rode the car numerous times in the next five years. It had a very special meaning to me. In the mid 1950's I was able to get a picture of car number 900 from the NYCTS, but it was not the same.
I think that the 600's 900's & 1200's were probably retired after Oct 13th 1950. They were used in the evening rush that day, but the "Last Lex" which ran that night at 9PM was made up of 1300 series gate cars. I did get to ride the "Last Lex". I moved from New York to Pennsylvania in 1957.
Thanks again for checking for me! I guess if we should want to continue to reminisce, we should take it to eMail. You can get my eMail address by clicking on my name at the top of this post. I'm not sure the other posters like to read about these real old trains.
BS on that ... there's some of us here who aren't QUITE as much old timers (I was born in 1951 myself) but worked with prewar cars in transit duty and love to hear about those even older. Dunno if you want to continue on this, but SOME of us don't mind hearing the stories ... beats all hell out of the various and sundry whinings. :)
Seems to me the younger cohort of fans are not as interested in what came before as when my contemporaries were their age. Maybe part of it is that so much was disappearing in the '50s and '60s. In my early experience of ERA meetings ('57 and '58) the railfans that were old enough were running all over the country on shoestring budgets to try see what was rapidly disappearing. I especially recall that everyone was making trips to Wilkes-Barre, PA. That must gave been some great system. I never saw it.
Sadly, trains are going the way of trolleys ... you're far more likely to get a crowd for car shows, motorcycle shows and so on. One of the things I personally decry about the subways is the UNIFORMITY which of course makes TA wigs all cozy and gushy but it was that wonderful VARIETY of stuff that once ran that really made a ride a treat. For the cost of the token, it was playing the lottery. What WOULD pull in behind those headlights down the tunnel? Would it actually GET you to the other end.
Sure I can understand the practicum of a happy modern fleet, but to us foamers it wasn't getting there that was the thrill, it was HOW you got there. I guess we should all pack up and head off to Wal*Mart and get ourselves a life. I hear they're on sale there today. :)
>>> What WOULD pull in behind those headlights down the tunnel? <<<
All this time I thought you were one of the old hands. Back in the day we didn't need no stinkin' headlights. :-)
Tom
Back in the day we didn't need no stinkin' headlights. :-)
Or speedometers. Or wheel detectors. Or radios to have a supervior tell you whether or not it was safe to do something you should have been trained to know yourself.
One disaapointment of modern day riding (aside from the loss of railfan windows) is that trains are becoming more hermetically sealed--I get the feeling that I'm riding a railroad car less and a horizontal elevator more. I don't expect to have the "one with nature" experience of riding a 1300 with the sides off during a thunderstorm anymore, but neither can I have the thrill of riding an R1 negotiating the switches at Prospect Park, gliding on a carpet of snow in eerie silence as the lights flicker and the motorman curses.
Heh. That perfectly sums it all up ... and hey, as long as one motor somewhere still had current, you'd still move ... somewhat. :)
Heh. Well, most of my R1/9's were faithful to the darkness ... helped ya spot the blue lights down the tunnel easier with them doused. But the 32's were on the property, the 42's and 44's were coming in and it became the Church of the Blinding Light ... I always despised coming around the curve into 205th and there was a 32 sitting on the south side of the platform, headlights blaring when I got to the homeball and had to sit and wait for it to heave over to the southbound track so I could roll in. Ya get used to dark tunnels after a long ride and here's a 32 sitting there in "high beams" ... heh.
Apologies for a wee mistake the picky will get onto me about - the "heave onto southbound" meant the yard lead ... southbounds out of 205th relayed at the other end but a layup was right in your face and coming at ya until it hit the wye for the yard lead ... and then ya had to roll in completely blinded by the light ...
I don't think people realize how superfluous--maybe even dangerous--subway car headlights are. Even hanging out the front window on a Standard or Triplex with only running lights, your eyes became acclimiatized to the dark and you could see the important stuff quite well, and without shadows. About the only thing I imagine you wouldn't see would be some damfool drunk without a lantern trying to walk home.
Am I right? Pity they never studied whether headlights can do more harm than good.
Well ... they ARE useful to work crews to see if something's coming before you get into the toot-toot zone but yeah, I found running with them out was easier than with them on. Then again, they do serve to let you see things on the tracks even if you're on top of them too fast to stop.
What WOULD have made more sense (though costly) would have been better lighting IN the tunnels perhaps, but this is a hair that'll split any which way with good arguments on both sides. I preferred the headlights out, I don't THINK you have any choice in the matter with the newer cars though.
>>> I preferred the headlights out, I don't THINK you have any choice in the matter with the newer cars though. <<<
Of course when there were no headlights, the stations were dimly lit with incandescent light bulbs. Now a T/O would lose his "night vision" just pulling into a brightly lit station.
Tom
Ya know, was just talking with a buddy here about that ... fortunately, the 10 car marker was away from the station lights pretty much and the old cabs had passion pit lighting ... aside from the indication lamp above the air gauge ... oh blinding light, oh light that blinds ... heh.
As much as I liked 2oth Century heavy steam power I have no intrest at all in the teakettle 4-4-0's with all the fancy trim; I loved the steel fleets of subways/els and intercity roads and the wooden el cars too but can't get too interested in something out of the Civil war period...stagecoaches, horescars...who cares.
Guess it's all relative to what we knew and loved...or had even a small taste of.
I went to a few ERA meetings in the time you describe and didn't share some of the [Wilkes Barre for one] pursuits as I had no idea what the scene was in those places...but of course understood later "hey, this is it" a few more perhaps more distant systems and "they ain't no more".
We were lucky to experience so many things from wooden els , steam, early diesels, some trolleys,big RR steel trains, and trains of all types from steel heavyweights thru the original streamliners to what's out there today.
One trip on our 1227 made a believer of me ... what a grand old girl she is.
Mr t__:^)
I wish you could have witnessed five or six car trains with that type of equipment in revenue service.
One of the best parts was hearing the bell signals being passed up the train by the gatemen.
I know what you're talking about thanks to this site (Thanks Dave), how many other do ?
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the kind words, Kevin!
Yer welcome ... the subways these days are good for transport and all, but they bred out the *charm* ... party on, Garth! Heh.
Joe,
You should donate scans of your photo collection to some worthy web site for preservation, hint hint ;-)
-Dave
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What do they do with trains when they are layed up in a yard? More techinically, do they leave the AC on? I can imagine trains stored outside would get mighty hot sitting in that strong sun this time of year.
Also, while riding the 7 this weekend and last it appears there has been major work going on the track to the 2nd westbound Amtrak tunnel portal. Today as we rounded the curve from what I could see a stretch of track there is gone! There's Amtrak work loco's on both sides of the gap. I'm assuming that line is closed for these repairs. I guess they work fast, since they'll have to have it ready for the LIRR rush hour Monday.
Rode the A on CPW both ways today and it was very fast. Weekends it seems it is faster. Probably a combination of less congestion and "wilder" weekend T/O's. Yup even the R44's flew down that stretch.
In the yards, air conditioning IS SUPPOSED to be turned off when no one is on the train. Notice the 2 words I put in caps!.......I don't know about "wilder" weekend T/O's! Every T/O is on a 5 day work week and I know when I worked weekends I operated in the same manner as I did on the 3 weekdays I worked. I hope they do the same!
Who will be the first to identify the motley looking quartet in the linked photo?
Well, I can identify the one on the left... but the others, while they look familiar, I can't place a name with...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two of the others are also subtalkers; one is not.
Returned today from South Jersey to shoot some of the Southern NJ Light Rail sights. I observed the following:
-1 There is almost nothing left of the old South Beach Branch because of construction of attached townhouses on the old ROW. The old trestle spanning Robin Rd. is still standing with development on both sides of the trestle. I noticed the builders plate on the trestle I photographed years ago is gone ! The City will probably raze the trestle and leave the concrete retaing walls. That was done near the Belair Rd station. What was either grassy lots or trees growing, the old South Beach ROW is almost undetectable. If you peruse the neighborhood, just look out for rows of new home contruction. Of course the name of the street Railroad Ave. is the best giveaway.
Also, you know the wide, long overpass that is the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza ? I was told that the reason why it was that wide was because in case if SIRT would reinstate South Beach service, the ROW would pass underneath the toll plaza. This seems to be true, the South beach ROW lines up with the roadway.
-2 Stopped by at Tottenville. First time I saw the new canopy which is attached to the old SIRT/B&O steelwork. The old concrete platform hasn't changed. The ramp leading up to the platform is new as well as the fencing and roof, an improvment. The station smells like seaweed ! There were no ex-NYCTA R- 44s seen, only the original SIRTOA ones.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, you know the wide, long overpass that is the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza ? I was told that the reason why it was that wide was because in case if SIRT would reinstate South Beach service, the ROW would pass underneath the toll plaza. This seems to be true, the South beach ROW lines up with the roadway.
I don't quite follow that, Bill. We walked all of the South Beach Line when we were writing the SIRT book, and that wasn't long after the V-N Bridge opened. We were told that the way the toll plaza was built it pretty much put the coffin nails in any service reinstatement, and our observation of the r-o-w at the toll plaza showed it quite filled in and destroyed.
Paul,
Maybe SIRT wrote off South Beach for good, perhaps the city when designing the Verrazano-Narrows brideg approach made this provision just in case. It didn't really mean both sides were thinking the same.
It's just like with the NYW&B Railway. When the city took over the Bronx portion back in '41, the center tracks and catenary were retained for a possible reinstatment of service of a Bronx express. That never happened and the catenary wire and towers became scrap for WW II. Of course the RR died after 25 years of service.
Go check out what I've seen today. It's like a massive construction of homes to wipe out all traces of SIRT. It wasn't too long ago we've all seen the ROW as overgrown with old stations marking time.
Now the Arlington Branch on the other hand is a different story. I was told the city bought that ROW strictly for freight as the route for the crossharbor freight rail tunnel.
Bill "Newkirk"
Go check out what I've seen today. It's like a massive construction of homes to wipe out all traces of SIRT. It wasn't too long ago we've all seen the ROW as overgrown with old stations marking time.
I would suspect that title to the former ROW was tied up in some manner for many years after the South Beach closing. Most likely, it only became available for development in the past few years, and needless to say a substantial track of developable land in that area is just too tempting for any developer to pass up.
Untrue. The reason the approach to the toll plaza is so wide is because it's a toll plaza. There's 30+ toll lanes, and all that space is (was) needed for stacking traffic. There was NEVER a chance of the line being reopened, especially since it shut down more than 10 years prior to the bridge opening, and about 6 before construction began.
Oh, the ROW was about midway between School Rd and Fingerboard Rd, and would not have lined up with the overpass.
-Hank
Hank,
Just to clear up one thing, I meant the width of overpass and not the toll plaza. As far as lining up the ROW I'll go along with what you're saying. Perhaps my friend was given incorrect imformation.
Bill "Newkirk"
Uhm, the overpass is the toll plaza...what connection are we not making here? The width of the overpass, perpendicular to the traffic on the highway, or the length of it perpendicular to School Road?
School Road/Lily Pond Ave is 5 lanes wide under the expressway, with the extra lane being an entrance-only to the bridge, and is 4 lanes wide between Bay St and Father Capodano Blvd.
-Hank
Hank,
The width of Lilly Pond Rd. was in question. Sorry if I misled you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Related subject: SIRT #388 moved this Sunday ... they needed to get a truck in the weeds in back of her (no not under her own power, would you believe H&M 503 towed her). 503 may not be ready for prime time yet but she can sure send the sparks flying trying to un-freeze a stuck brake on 388. I only wish I had been there to see it.
Mr t__:^)
I passed by Keyspan Park to get a gander of history to be made with the upcoming opening of the park.
Well folks, there is scaffolding around the the front of the terminal on Surf and Stillwell Aves. On the Surf Ave. side there is green plywood covering the famous BMT facade. It seems that the ball is rolling on this.
Speaking of scaffolds, diagonally across the street next to Nathans there is an alley that has picnic tables in the summer. Next to that was a building which was razed. The other food emporiums weren't touched. Anyone know what this is all about ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Woopdy doo Newkirk---Is it possible they are starting to do a long overdue overhaul of Coney Island? Let me see, a new ballpark for a Brooklyn team that hasn't existed in name since 1957, a revampment of Stillwell Avenue, and picnic tables along with old buildings being torn down. Can I at least hope for the best. I'm 3,000 miles away but everything that happens in Coney Island is of great importance to me. I'm sure many of you old warhorses out there share such a feeling.
Good thing Rudy's on his way out ... if he had another term, it'd become yet another Disney property. :)
I've got a great idea for Coney Island. Build an accurate reproduction of the defunct "Thunderbolt" roller coaster. Then on the opposite side of the street build an exact mirror image of the "Thunderbolt" so that you have "racing" roller coasters. This would be the first set of "racing" roller coasters in Coney Island since 1926 when the "Giant" operated for the last season at Coney Island. The following year the "Giant" was replaced with the "Cyclone" which still stands.
BMTJeff
"Is it possible they are starting to do a long overdue overhaul of Coney Island?"
Well Fred, Stillwell Terminal at least. The new ballpark is one thing to kick start a Coney Island Renaissance. Perhaps a bizzillionaire may come along to part with a few million $ to build an exact replica of the Thunderbolt. Although there is a new parking field for the ballpark where the Thunderbolt once stood, there is vacant lot a block over that could possibly accommodate one.
Bill "Newkirk"
I passed by Keyspan Park to get a gander of history to be made with the upcoming opening of the park.
Well folks, there is scaffolding around the the front of the terminal on Surf and Stillwell Aves. On the Surf Ave. side there is green plywood covering the famous BMT facade. It seems that the ball is rolling on this.
Speaking of scaffolds, diagonally across the street next to Nathans there is an alley that has picnic tables in the summer. Next to that was a building which was razed. The other food emporiums weren't touched. Anyone know what this is all about ?
Bill "Newkirk"
A woman who was switched from welfare to disability when she was deemed mentally ill uses $250 of her $300 monthly stipend to buy a monthly train pass. She lives mostly on the NY&LB because that gives her the longest round trip for trying to sleep.
Times story
That is not such a bad idea. Homeless people in Russia do that occasionally, except there, the longest trip is 3 hours and tickets are checked only occasionally.
It is much more convenient than being homeless or living in a shelter and much cheaper than renting an apartment.
Thats sad I hope someone that reads the times could help her out. Its a good idea but not one anyone should have to go through in this country
Amazing. A homeless woman who won't LOWER HERSELF to take newspapers from the garbage.
-Hank
Amazing. A homeless woman who won't LOWER HERSELF to take newspapers from the garbage.
Heh heh, I can't pass a trash can at Penn Station without looking for a newspaper.
Everyone has to have some standard that they won't violate, so they can maintain some sense of self-worth.
Automatically assuming "homeless = absolutely no self-worth" is incorrect.
Just an interesting comment on the article, the woman has two children, certainly adults by now. Why won't they help her?
Just an interesting comment on the article, the woman has two children, certainly adults by now. Why won't they help her?
There's got to be another story there. The reporter obviously did some investigating, because the story says that Ms. Winkler's mother called the police to have her taken to the psych unit. Police records revealed her mother's address, where Ms. Winkler's daughter happened to be visiting, but both women refused to comment. This implies that the reporter, Vincent Mallozzi, dug up the police report and went to Ms Winkler's house to ask questions.
Just an interesting comment on the article, the woman has two children, certainly adults by now. Why won't they help her?
Perhaps she does not want their help.
Though it is probably possible, it is often quite an ordeal for family members to force other family members who are mentally ill to accept proper care. Judging from the apparent history in that family, the children may be unwilling to invest any more of their emotional reserve in their mother, or simply in denial about the severity of her sickness. It is very difficult to know what course to take with psychologically disturbed family members, especially when they choose to wander as homeless indigents. One prevelant characteristice of homeless people is that they feel they are calling their own shots, even though it appears to the rest of us that they are completely dependent upon the generosity of strangers. It is painful for them to be in shelters where they are told what to do by strangers, and even more painful for them to be so directed in familiar surroundings, such as their own home or a relative's, where they once had a modicum of autonomy.
Each "case" is different, but I am certain their is no one way to deal with this kind of thing. There are as many solutions as their are patients, and no one can really be an expert here.
And this is not bullshit. My family has had some experience in this area. I'll leave it at that.
KP
...children may be...in denial about the severity of her sickness...
Additionally, the family may be ignorant of such psychological disorders and not able to recognize that help is needed, or worse, they may suffer the social stigma attached to mental illness, which still exists today, especially in the older generations. Igorance, denial, and embarrassment are high walls to top, especially within families.
KP
A very thoughtful post. Thank you for your insights; I agree with much of what you say, esp. since it "jives"with what I've seen during many a shift in an ER.
It is very difficult to know what course to take with psychologically disturbed family members, especially when they choose to wander as homeless indigents.
And I do think that many people in this situation don't feel they've made a "choice" at all; they've been forced into something by circumstances beyond their control, and are just trying to make the best of it.
$250.00 is the full fare for that monthly pass, right?
Being on disability, shouldn't she qualify for half fare?
Good point. She needs to supply a doctor's note. Shouldn't be too hard to arrange.
Of course, that's part of the cop-out. It would be great if, with some persistence on the part of social services, and good follow-up, this woman could actually get a shot at a return to economic productivity and better mental health.
How much "persistence" these "social services" people ought to show is, of course, a perennial subject of debate. I believe that, in a free society (something I fervently consider a "good thing"), government must not be too agressive in offering its services. The innovative way that this woman has made the best of a bad situation seems to indicate that her mind is working well, despite the label that has been pinned on her. Perhaps the extra $125 a month will allow her to find her own way out. That, at least, would be my hope.
There is a fine line you walk. I agree she isn't doing anything wrong, but I also think that it's wrong to just forget about it and let it go. It would be enough, in her case, to offer her choices and services - if she goes for it, great. But it is important to not give the impression that she is "out of sight, out of mind."
In her case, an additional $125 would go a ways, wouldn't it?
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Subject says it all.
Thanks, in advance.
11 feet 10 and 3/8 inches
David
Which, of course, means that once and for all time: A Redbird will NOT fit in the DC Metro.
We're entering Howard Beach station at an unusually high speed, and about halfway through the T/O slams on the brakes and gives the C/R one long buzz through half the station (he knew he wasn't going to make it). The T/O keys out everyone in the first car through the last doorway (which barely made the platform), I noticed that these R-44s as well as the SIR ones sound the door chime when that door is opened. Two cops were on board and one transit employee gets on, and no one says anything about this! Anyway, he gets back in the cab and gives the C/R two short and the doors open, the T/O watches the car to make sure no one falls out. Not exactly proceedure, but everyone who was going to get off already exited and who's stupid enough to jump out an open door like that?(though there were a few little kids running about). I enjoy my unobstructed view of the wooden walkway and barbed wire fence adjacent to the ROW for a few moments. Doors close and we proceed, he makes a perfect stop at Broad Channel (lines up with the punch exactly) and did not show any apprehension while braking, suggesting he was a pro who simply got distracted for a moment.
I doubt he would have resolved everything the way he did had he overshot an el or subway station. There's something about being at-grade which makes situations seem safer than they would be anywhere else.
Yup, I've known a few guys to overshoot Grand street and 8th avenue on the Sea Beach. They claim their mind got too mystical. And watch out for the dragon clips*, they're gonna get you!
*Large oversized hairclips
if you haven't figured it out already, I am joking :-0
I so doubt that EVERYONE must share your overwhelming fetish for Asian Women, and if its true, then...nevermind. I have already met several subtalkers in person who say you are crazy or corny??? I dont remember.
Call me crazy, call me corny. Ya know differences should be respected, without the different and colorful cultures and personality of NYC it would be a boring place.
I am proud of who I am no matter what anyone else says. If thinking trains are romantic is insane than I am. I'm sure some woman will appreciate it!
Yeah, but the kinda wimmens you're looking for are less likely to be the type. My honey can tear down a compressor or breaker panel faster than you can say "road car inspector" ... that's why she's a keeper. :)
We've got to get you an R-9 of your own, pronto.:-) Not to mention oh, a nice, long 10-mile straightaway of track.
Heh. Nancy's really a supremo rail afficiando ... and we've done about an equal amount of cabtime ... back in the Gonerail days, we'd vacation in the summertime by taking a ride with our BLE buddies to wherever it was they were going. Once, Conway, NH, another time, Tittsburgh, another time Cleveland (yike!), Chi-town, hell of a great way to go and I always got throttle time since the Selkirk, Dullmar, Bethlehem, New Scotland and Voorheesville tricolor area was a tight knit community of rail folks and those we tolerate. If you know what a "spike" is (not a "needle") then you were IN here. :)
Nancy ain't as bold (the "ta" set me straight) as far as handle-grabbing goes, though I have no doubts SHE wouldn't bend the spaghetti like I did, she's throttle-worthy. And she got some. Heh. There is NOTHING like "doing it on a REAL train" ... mile high club, feh ... Risky Business in a conductor's uniform. Yee-hah!
...if you use the word 'mystical' one more time.....it'll be 'bang-zoom-to-the-Moon' time for you...
BMTman
Hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana.
Sounded almost like a Heypaul post.
I wish I could be a T/O but face it with no woman my hormones would probably get in the way everytime I see a sweet mystical girl on the platform I'd overshoot the platform.
Hey do women hit on TA employees? I've never seen it but I guess it can happen.
Many lines have a great thing called speed, but in my book the Sea Beach is one of the most romantic lines. Could it be Broadway? The open cut? Or the fresh ocean air. There's just something relaxing and soothing when I hear "Sea Beach".
Whenever I do find a girl (and better be soon) we're riding the Sea Beach. Now if only we could get the N to be put on the bridge that would make my day.
Hey, Fred, are you getting all of this?:-)
I cannot believe that this T/O didn't disable the DC1 circuit breaker so as to keep the doors on the first car closed. If one of those little kids runs out one of the doors, then that T/O (and the C/R) would be 100% fired. Not to mention any charges by the police or any lawsuits.
Dumb.
I was expecting him to cut out all the doors in the car, but when he didn't I assumed he had done something else to prevent them from opening (but he didn't). Anyway, no harm done since the only people in the car standing were the cops (right by the second doorway) and the (mother?) of the kids. The T/O could have asked the cops to block the other doors while he stood at the first one, but I'm guessing he was thinking fast to avoid someone calling and asking about the holdup.
That was one of the inconsistancies I was talking about - why I find the story not totally believable.
What are you insinuating? :)
A "writer's embellishment" ala David Letterman perhaps??
No. I just felt that except for a possible newbie, most T/Os would drop out either the DC-1 or the D8 before giving the conductor two.
He didn't. He should have, but didn't. With two cops at one door and him a few feet from the other, that only left one doorway uncovered which was right by the Do Not Enter or Cross Tracks thing. He probably felt it unneccesary, or plain forgot. Would you like a physical description of this guy posted on the board, so you can ask him and confirm?
For a moment there, I thought you were describing a train of R-10s. Then again, an unusually high rate of speed for them would have been oh, 70 mph or thereabouts.
Oh COME ON! Put that thing back in your pants ... ya wanna go BLIND?!?! Any of us who did the rails back when the pterodactyls roamed know damned well that 55 was pushing the limits of Rod Serling. But it was a JOYOUS 55. Heh.
Nice ride, but the D train did it too ... and when an A train ended up on the local trax, express to 59 southbound, we still beat its butt with R1/9's ... though it wasn't really a fair drop owing to all the dips on that track. :)
Anybody in Manhattan around 2-3 am might want to get to the corner of 2nd Ave and Houston. This is where the truck carrying ex-SHRT #60 will be turning to head towards the Manhattan Bridge. All the PCC's we have acquired from Buffalo will be doing this, so if you miss it tonight, another will be by late Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday nights all month.
#61 is already in the Navy Yard. #70 is in Red Hook being re-activated and cleaned (boy, does it need it).
We put all the pole/shroud parts back on #70 this afternoon in beautiful weather. Tomorrow, we clean all the contacts and try to see if everything runs like its supposed to. This is the car Buffalo had tooling about their line recently.
FYI - we yanked all the pantograph stuff off the roof. NFTA has their pan back. Can't run a pan on conventional trolley wire. Besides it makes the car look funny.
Words cannot describe how COOL this is ... and just as Newark is ditching theirs ... sure hope you guys can keep up with them. Simplicity on the half shell but labor intensive ...
Sounds good.
Do these PCCs have a set of doors on what would normally be the closed side of the car? I know that some of the PCCs running in Shaker Heights did.
Also, can you put a few pictures up on the internet of your progress with these PCCs so far?
-Robert King
I wouldn't mind taking photos of the new arrivals at BTM. Just need to meet up with Jan.
Paul
Hey!!! I had lunch with you on the IRT Low V trip the other year!!! I never had time that summer to come down to Brooklyn to visit - how/when can I drop by and join in the fun?
*smelling another subtalk trip...*
Ok, I will try to answer all the questions so far.
The ex-SHRT cars are the sisters of the Newark cars, having come in the same St. Louis Car Co. order #1660 that about a third of the Newark cars came from in 1947. Newark's cars are from three separate orders delivered to Minneapolis in 1947 and 1949. We invite the folks from Newark to come and see what we have, and what we're doing.
The cars are being trucked through Manhattan in the wee hours and 11 will be delivered in the Navy Yard just before dawn. We unload at dawn. Very pretty then too. The Navy Yard is secure, so the only way you can get close is eitehr with escort by us, or by sticking your cameras through the fence at Clymer and Kent Aves. Car 70 (BHRA #2000)is in Red Hook on the pier, and we will try to get her moving under power this week.
The SHRT cars mentioned with the LH doors are the Pullmans 71-95. Most of those got cut up due to severe structural rust, although there are about 10 cars around still. The truckers we are using had 4 of them.
I noticed that on the SE entrance of the Main street station in Flushing the stairway to Roosevelt avenue is closed. Is this due to the work they are doing in the building there on the corner?
BTW, the "flea market" opened where Wendy's was. It's alot more mystical now.
On a warm day like today "mystical" takes on a whole new dressy concept.
I've gotta find one! I wish I could buy a few Redbirds when they retire but face it they do cost money. Romance shouldn't.
Could the TA sell the Redbirds? An NYCT auction?
"Could the TA sell the Redbirds? An NYCT auction"
In the old days, you would buy one from the scrapper. Now with asbestos removal and dropping them in the drink, it's not as simple as it once was.
BTW - Find a mystical girl and buy her and egg roll or better yet, treat her to a Jackie Chan movie !
Bill "Newkirk"
Greetings, all...
Here's a few photos from my recent weekend in Detroit. The photos were taken by my drinking buddy and close friend Eric Johnson, a native of Detroit.
Front view of abandoned Michigan Central station, with hotel above.
Another view of Michigan Central station. Heartbreaking.
Michigan Central station, from a distance. Kevin Walsh would have a field day in this city.
Graffiti. This is the type of graffiti I actually have a strong appreciation for, as opposed to the mindless scratchiti and gang symbol scrawls.
Detroit people mover, with skyline in background.
Also: Stay tuned for about 110 photos of various CTA stations, by yours truly, to be posted to nycsubway.org soon! (Amazing what things one can get caught up on when one is unemployed.)
Enjoy,
-- David
Chicago, IL
"This is the type of graffiti I actually have a strong appreciation for, as opposed to the mindless scratchiti and gang symbol scrawls."
Eye of the beholder, as they say. Still looks like trash to me.
But what if you saw some graffiti and then you found out it was commissioned by the owner of the building? I love looking at graf while riding on MARTA, although the stuff you see from MARTA wasn't commissioned. I found this one commissioned artwork that was a huge mural of the Atlnata skyline as seen from that location, VERY kewl. I also found a cop car on cinder blocks that was completely covered in graffiti, and the thing was that it was also commissioned!
By what I can tell with the photo- strong debt to abstract expressionism; what painters and styles do you prefer?
geeeeezzzz just as i remember when i lived in detroit 1988-1991 grey cold overcast day & samo ol' borin DPM people mover !!
@ at least it does have a rail-fan window !!! ( he he he he he ) nice view of the RUINS of downtown detroit !!!
he he he he he he he ............LOL !!! ( you brougnt back a lot of memories here ) !!
I rode the Peoplemover on opening day. Do you know how hard it was to convince my mom to drive into the city just for that? "It doesn't go anywhere!" I can't imagine Detroit's in any better shape than when I left it.
oh really ?? yes it looks worse than when you were there!! ( if that is possible ) but it is true !!!
Having seen the photos, I can fully understand why the producers of RoboCop set the movies (and the TV show) in Detroit. The reality is as despressing as the movie\TV made it out to be.
Is the train station imprisoned in barbed wire as a lesson to anyone who would dare bring an alternative mode of transportation into the city of the automobile?
:)
Mark
Greetings, all...
Here's a few photos from my recent trip to London that you may find of interest:
Exterior of Victoria Station, close to where I was staying.
Train shed of Victoria Station.
Train shed of Victoria Station.
Train shed of Waterloo Station.
Waterloo International Terminal, home of the Eurostar train to Paris.
Exterior view of entry to Canary Wharf station, designed by Lord Norman Foster.
Escalators at Canry Wharf station.
Interior of Liverpool Street Station.My grandfather has probably been through here hundreds of times.
Waterfront at Burnham-on-Crouch, my grandfather's hometown. The small white building in center is an architects's office, with a Jaguar parked outside. I wonder if he's looking for an assistant? :-)
These certainly bring back memories... I think the last time I've really felt happiness was when I was exploring the streets of London. Hopefully I'll find my back there before too long.
DAVE PIRMANN: Feel free to copy these photos for use on nycsubway.org.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Our freedom of speech is not totally free - or at least is should not be. The price should be responsibility at the very least. In the 2+ days that I was away, I've seen one post about a 'Drunk' conductor who clearly was more sober than the poster. Then we had a post about an 'A' train that ran Howard Beach Station.
If true, these incidents should be reported - properly. Clearly, in the first instance it was not true. It was not the conductor who was in error - it was the poster who apparently never heard that a little knowledge is dangerous. Since he has very little knowledge about the subways, he must be very dangerous.
As for the station run-through on the A line, I find no report of such an incident having occurred. Could it have? I suppose! However, since there were 2 policemen, another TA employee, and many cuspomers (reportedly) on the scene, is it likely that the C/R would risk his job by not reporting the incident? I think not! There were other inconsistancies in the story, too - that I shant go into. More likely is that the T/O came into the station fast and our 'reporter' made a judgement that the train would not stop in time. Likely the train did so the reporter's imagination took over.
The trouble is - one day someone is going to report something here that isn't true - the wrong person will read it - and someone may get hurt. Imagine if someone reported to the police that they saw your neighbor molesting a little child or your neighbor's wife was reportedly beating her child. False allegations can be just as damaging as true ones.
In the past, there was a post about a TA Manager being drunk and involved in an automoble accident with an official vehicle. The allegation was false but so many people had seen documents, or had seen the car or the man - that it became true on subtalk. That thread indirectly led to the discipline (severe - to say the least) of one employee.
I just wish some here would mature a little and start posting with a little responsibility and a little credibility. I will now step down from my soap box.
[I've seen one post about a 'Drunk' conductor who clearly was more sober than the poster. ]
Maybe he should have quoted the word "drunk" to make it clear for everyone. At least I precived it in non direct meaning.
Arti
>>>>Is it likely that the C/R would risk his job by not reporting the incident? I think not!
90% of the time, a station overrun of one car or less is not reported. EVERY T/O and C/R will eventually have this happen to them. No one wants to bang his partner in, especially when you work with the same person every day for 6 months. Of course it's done at your own risk.
I'm sure that there are quite a few other superintendents (and higher) out there who can recall their "oops" instances.
Are you insinuating that I did not tell the truth? IT DID HAPPEN! And how, exactly, is the conductor supposed to know that there were two police officers and another transit employee in the first car? Or how did he even know the train overshot? From his point of view all he heard was a long buzz which started while the train was entering the station, he did not line up with the board, but got two buzzes later so he figured everything was OK and opened up. I heard no intercom or radio communication between the T/O and C/R so it is possible only the T/O knew, and he wasn't about to turn himself in. Do the other customers know that an overshoot is a serious deal that should be reported? No! Would the other transit employee (who could be another T/O) report on something when he is under no pressure to do so?
Name these other inconsistencies (on the board or email me), I shall enjoy explaining them. I do not enjoy being called a liar, particularly in instances where I am telling the truth.
>>>>Or how did he even know the train overshot?
Trust me, the C/R knew.
He still could make an argument that he didn't know, if "they" found out about it. Anyway, Train Dude shouldn't be basing his assumption on my reporting on the actions or non-actions of someone neither or I nor he knows personally.
Well TD is right in the fact that there has been a lot of irresponsible posts. Personally, I 100% believe your story because if you start braking halfway into Howard Beach southbound, then you're sailing like a boat right out of the station. But it probably would have been best being unreported. It doesn't really serve a viable purpose if you think about it. After all, this is an incident that could have cost somebody their job.
Sorry to pop in, but having been "reported" here, it still could. Anyone who's ever gotten that call of "what was your motor last Tuesday at 1614?" can attest to ... and unlike the Spanish Inquisition, no comfy chairs ...
Hell ... I overshot once by a side door. After that and the shakes that caused, I always undershot my stops and had to give it a kick sometimes to come up to the marker and in other cases, the stop was agaonizingly slow for the geese. An overshoot is not something the guy up front is too happy about either, whether it's turned in or not. I can hear the four letter word now ...
>>>>>I can hear the four letter word now ...
First you say it, then you do it.
And no soft cushions downtown either.
Last I heard, Biggles works for labor relations.
Beam me up Scotty ... I guess we should all start investing in bicycles for next December ... heh.
............Diiiiiiiiinnnnnsssdaaaaaaaaaaaaale!..........
NNnnnnnoooobody expects the TSS ... our methods are five (three, sir) ...
Preceded, of course, by a diminished seventh chord blared out by trumpets. And Graham Chapman saying, "I wasn't expecting the TSS".
NOBODY expects the flipping TSS ... our methods are FIVE (three, sir!) and we demand PROFF ... or Lupins, depending on your want. :)
............Diiiiiiiiinnnnnsssdaaaaaaaaaaaaale!..........
AAAH!!! Now there's a WOODY word.
Unlike NEWSPAPER and LITTERBIN. Tinny.
I posted it simply because it was an interesting occurrence, and others have posted about things like this in the past while giving much more specific information. I left out anything that could have incriminated the guy such as the time and car numbers, and I was reluctant to give the car class although it seemed necessary to be able to tell the whole story.
I can picture the memo now: All T/Os and C/Rs who operated R-44 As on Saturday report for inquiry and drug testing. We know who you are.
There ARE people "downtown" who live for such mysteries ... and now with Angela Landsbury off CBS, they're in need of a fix. Hopefully this one will go nowhere ... as hard as you try to do it right, sometimes you just have a crappy day on the railroad. As long as nobody got hurt, hopefully you'll have a more careful operator. You don't forget something like that when it happens to you and you're always looking over your shoulder. Anyhoo, someone out there got religion. :)
Thank you...everybody makes mistakes and things are bound to happen, banging in everything only leads to spoiling a career for some people who may otherwise be good at what they do. If a whole trip went bad that's another story. I made enough of my own mistakes too.
I hate to think how many times it took 3 mechanics to get a problem with a vehicle fixed...paying each time, or going to doctors and spending money and they couldn't find a problem or I mean find a solution. Happens to everyone..
Who ya gonna call? CREW busters ... sure hope everyone had their little book and pencil and that the C/R remembered to point. :)
"Or how did he even know the train overshot?"
Now here's the tricky part. If the train overshot, (are you ready for this?) The conductor would not be on the board at his position. See, that's why the conductor must point to the boards when the train stops and before he opens the doors. NO BOARDS - NO OPEN.
Just as an aside - we get unfounded customer reports every day. One will report that the doors didn't open at his stop or the doors opened on the wrong side. While these things do happen - they occur far less often than they are reported. Just like the guy who reported that John Rocker chased him around a crowded sports bar the othr night. No one else saw it.
At Jamaica Van Wyck, and many other IND stations, you can pass the board and still fit (tight squeeze at the first car, though). Some of the Rockaway Line stations were designed for 12 85' cars, there is a lot of "breathing room" in the event of an overshoot. Though, because of the long delay before the C/R got the two, he probably did figure it out. But remember, some C/Rs are not as intelligent as you and I or do not bother to figure these things out. Or, maybe he simply forgot about it by the time his shift was over. Maybe the T/O was a close personal friend who had overlooked a harmless transgression of his and felt he should reciprocate. The point is, it did happen and neither of us knows why the crew acted the way they did. I have never made a false claim on this board, and don't appreciate having my credibility attacked like this.
First, whether or not you can fit a train into a station and be off the boards is irrelevant. If the C/R is off the board, he must assume that the train is out of the station and not open the doors until he is told it is safe.
Second, you are correct. There is no evidence that what you allege actually happened. Of course, the only evidence we have that it did occur is your report and there are a few inconsistancies in your account.
Third, I really am not that interested that I'm going to initiate an investigation about this alleged incident. I'm content to let people believe what they may.
Forth, my post was about 2 unsubstantiated claims about improper operation by train crews. I still maintain that such posts are irresponsible. I also maintain that there are too many such posts on subtalk. Your defense of your post has really done nothing to change my opinion about irresponsible in general.
Fine, I agree to disagree. But I will still post about it if it happens again, and will probably have pictures to prove such an account as during summer railfan trips I will have a camera at all times. This was the first time I had ever experienced an overshoot, thanks for killing it for me.
What ever floats yer boat
Why would people report things that didn't happen?
I mentioned here a few months ago that I was on a C that didn't open its doors, at least in my car, at 81st. (The only passenger in my car who was standing by the door didn't seem at all annoyed with the prospect of staying on to 72nd and transferring to an uptown train.) Do you think I made that up?
Did you report it? And to answer your question - yes it does happen. Since it is under investigation, I can't comment but there is a one incident that is being vigorously investigated as we speak.
Why would people report things that didn't happen?
Because some of them see it as a way to get into Transit's pockets. They are also unaware of (and uncaring of) what happens when they make a false claim.
Almost everyone here sounds like they work in Labor relations ( the signals can fail, the trains can break down, but "you are a transit professional" and no mistakes are allowed.) Almost every T/O has overrun a station or hit a signal, it's part of being human WE MAKE MISTAKES, but if no harm comes to anyone, or equipment is damaged and it does not occur on a regular basis most supervisors will let it slide. Plus did anyone think that the station was long enough that the C/R could be off the board but all the door panels still be within the station limits. There are plenty of stations like that.
Professionals are human. They make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from mistakes, and avoid repeating them. Continuous improvement should be a personal goal.
What more should you ask for?
If you read Chinese, and remember what the old Canal St. Station
signs looked like, I need to hear from you. A photo including
two set of Chinese characters is at my site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nycsubways/
I believe ONE of these sets of characters used to be on the signs
at Canal St. station. Which ones, and what did it say "Canal St."
or "Chinatown" in Chinese.
Thank you. Please reach out for me if you can. I need authenticity
for a project.
>>> If you read Chinese, and remember what the old Canal St. Station signs looked like <<<
Since you have a very good picture of the sign, you need a Chinese language expert rather than some one knowledgeable in subways. If you are in any reasonable sized city, a trip to a college with a Chinese language department should solve your problem. Even a trip to a local Chinese restaurant may get you your answer.
Tom
Old Tom,
I need to know which was used on the old signs, to try to recreate
it. Unless someone knew how to read it then, I won't get the
correct info. I'm here in NYC, but need the right person.
I know that the Chinatown station on the Broad-Ridge spur here in Philly has "Chinatown" written in Chinese characters on it's signs. There is a photo of the sign on this very website. Click here to see it. Maybe you could use it as a Rosetta Stone to help figure out the NY signs.
Mark
Unfortunately there are different ways of saying Chinatown, and the one shown for Philly is not the way it's said on the Canal St signs.
As we've gone over before, the set of 3 characters (written in the blockier font) says Canal Street. The set of 2 characters (written in the more calligraphic font) says Chinatown. Unfortunately the only signs I ever remember with any Chinese on them are like the photo, with both sets of characters on them.
The word China itself has to be written with two characters. How can China TOWN be written with as many?
For the word China, the first character is Chinese, and the second character is country/kingdom.
The word for China in Chinese is Chung-Kuo. I believe it means Middle Kingdom.
And as was pointed out, there are many ways to say "Chinatown," and I would guess that many (most?) of them do not translate literally as "China Town."
Mark
You are right. Chung-Kuo means the Middle of the Nation. Chung is middle, and Kuo is Nation. Chung-Kuo is called China in English because of Qin Dynasty. China is a pronunciation descendant of Qin.
Chaohwa
This is interesting; however, the question was:
If "China" is 2 words (Chung-Kuo), how can "Chinatown" also be only 2 words?
Check out post 227550.
Mark
Thanks; I missed that one.
I have another question: On the J/M/Z platforms there are white on black signs that have one three figure word, and another 2 figure one. What are they in case anybody has seen them?
Forget it.
But I would like to know that the three letters that spell Canal Street each mean.
My understanding [as an American-born Chinese who can't actually read very much Chinese] is that the characters chosen for the Chinese names of streets in Chinatown are supposed to sound like the English names. The characters aren't chosen for meaning, so they probably don't make any sense if taken as a phrase in Chinese.
So the first two characters correspond to the two syllables in "canal" ... I think they're pronounced "jya nee" in Mandarin, though I could be wrong. (The Cantonese pronounciation might sound closer to the English.) The third character is just "street".
Well there are two kinds of chinese writing, the older Traditional style and the simplified style that was brought about by the Communists and used in Mainland China.
As we've gone over this quite sometime ago,
the old signs on both the express and local Broadway
platforms said only "hua-pu" which means "Chinatown".
It literally translates to "flower" & "town(quarter)".
The fact is, another way to say China in Chinese (Mandarin
pronounciation) is "Chun-hua" which translates to
"flower in the middle".
"Chun-guo(kuo)" means "country in the middle" or
"country in the center (of the world)"
Well, at least back in the times when the World = Asia
(from an Asian point of view), they were right.
Well, at least back in the times when the World = Asia
(from an Asian point of view), they were right.
And this is the same logic that gave us the Mediterranean Sea.
Today the center of the world is the Gulf of Guinea.
We call Mediterranean Sea in Chinese "Di Chung Hai", which means the sea surrounded by land. "Di" is land, "Chung" is middle, and "Hai" is sea.
Chaohwa
Dear Wado,
Thank you so much for the information. Now I just need for you
to look at my website, check out the two sets of Chinese characters,
and let me know which ones used to appear on the old signs.
The first set, or the second set?
PLEASE!
The website is
http://home.earthlink.net/~nycsubways/
Please let me know ASAP
Thanks!
Dear Wado,
You both understand Chinese and remember the old signs. I need for
you to look at my website and tell me which of the Chinese characters
shown were on the old signs when there was only one set of
characters under the words "Canal St."
Web site is http://home.earthlink.net/~nycsubways/
Thank you!
I actually do not speak Chinese...
I know a little bit since I'm Japanese and
we use a lot of Chinese characters as well.
The old signs had the two characters"Hua-pu"
It's the one with the script like font on your site.
The sans-serif ones that spell out "Canal" phonetically
and "street" didn't exist back then, not even on the J platform.
The old signs with "Hua-pu" only existed on the
Broadway line platforms: the current N/R platform
and the soon-to-be used again express platform.
They had black lettering on white background.
Sometime in the 90s,They were selling those signs at
the antique store on Houston between Lafayette and Bowery.
BTW "Hua-pu" is the Mandarin pronounciation.
I'm sure it's different in Cantonese.
How different are they? Well, "Hong Kong"
in Mandarin is "Shan-Kao" or something close to that.
"Hua-pu" would be read "Kafu" in Japanese
Dear Wado,
Thank you! Let me just be certain...the thinner characters on the
far right of the Canal St. station sign are the ones that used to
be on those white signs with black writing. Are you 100% certain
of that? It's very important.
Please leave me a msg at my e-mail address. I make the official
MTA licensed tee shirts, and I promise you the first of my
Canal St. station shirts if you leave me your address.
Thanks,
Lynne
nycsubwayline@earthlink.net
Yes. I am positive.
I remember them clearly as I had never seen the word
"Chinatown" spelled out that way. That was in '87,
when I first got to NYC.
I can't recall any other city where they write "Hua-pu"
for "Chinatown". See older posts with the sign from Phillie
I will email you later.
Thanks, Wado!
I look forward to hearing from you. You know, my shirts are all
the rage in Japan this past two years!
How's Chinatown in Philly? Is it mystical?
I'm not sure what you mean by mystical...I can tell you that it's not very big, and that at some point in the past, it was made smaller or at least stopped from growing when the Vine Street Expressway cut across its northern extremities. I'll also tell you that there was a plan to build a new baseball stadium there, but the residents almost unanimously hated the idea, and successfully stopped the city from building it.
Mark
Has anybody bought this program yet?
Comp USA seems to have the best price at $29.99. Has anyone seen it any cheaper?
Wow that is a good price. I'm thinking of getting Train Sim but should I wait till the bugs are discovered or just dive in to the cab?
Do you need a joystick?
You do not need a joystick- the game is spectacular, I definetly recommend it!
29.99 is the cheapest you will see it for a while- I bought mine for $50
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Has anyone had a problem yet? I am trying to run it on Win2k and it tells me the "Train World Intialization Failed". This error mesage occurs when i try to run the NE Corridor or any Train sim selection? Anyone seen this?
Frank D
As many of you know, the Staten Island Yankees (a minor league team) has a new stadium near St. George (about 150 yards away). The new stadium, which was built over what used to be the North Shore line actually has made a two-track station for the SIR called "Ball Park" (I wanted them to call it "Yankee Stadium" :) ). I'm not sure when the opening date of the station is, but here are some construction photos:
Please wait while photos load...
East portal of station. Note stair access to stadium and Richmond Terrace on left. The Ball Park station currently has single-track access.
Station platform
Station sign
West portal of station. Note elevator to stadium to and Richmond Terrace on right.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Very nice.
nice station-my question is-if they can afford to bulid a station 1500 feet from the ferry terminal-why dont they spend the money and update the tracks so they run a train to Richomnd Terrace. They have the platform there. all they have to do is update the station and the tracks-have a 2 track setup between Richard Terrace to the Ball Park-then 1 track over-or a 1 track operation. why not?
Huh?
-Hank
There's a dream for you--reopen the North Shore line one station at a time.
The shortest answer is: they don't want to. The almost as short answer is that with the ballpark, they only have to run service for ball games, like the Belmont Park branch of the LIRR. As soon as they open a regular service station they'll be expected to provide service at least hourly 24/7.
My questions are: how is paying for this station and the service to it, and will they charge a fare?
Ball Park has no turnstiles and so it will be like all the other SIR stations: free.
Then it will cost no money to travel there from other SIR stations, and $1.50 from St. George?
Seems nutty to me.
The SIR is FREE YA got to be kidding!
Not exactly. There is a $1.50 fare if you're going to or from St. George. ALL SIR fares are paid at St. George, either by exiting or entering. All SIR trips not involving St. Geroge are free.
That raises a question: Isn't the ballpark sation really, really close to the Ferry Terminal. That would make it very easy for St. George customers to skip out on the fare. (Although if you going to/from Manhattan you may as well pay the fare if you have a Metrocard--one way or another you're paying it unless you are going within walking distnace of Battery Park.
:-) Andrew
How about they have a smart ticket a paper card that you use to enter the turnstile and to exit the turnstile And ther woud be ticket machines near the platform and near the entrance to the turnstile.
The revenue received from these systems you propose would never pay for installing them.
Plus it woud be free at St. georges station.
No, they'll be using modified bus fareboxes for fare collection. There's no way they'll NOT collect fares just 1000' from the Ferry.
-Hank
So what was it like to Ride the Subways in the Late 60's, 70's and Early 80's?
I thought it would be cool to bring it up again, since I did not exist I was not there through those radical times. Where there were alot more subway lines, and then the tearing down of the el's to the huge fight with the graffiti people. So tell your stories about those times.
Not too good people might bad mouth subways now.The equipment is better now than then.Rehabbed trains brand new trains and modern equipment are the norm then.The trains back then were filthy beyond belief, very little if any air conditioning, The IRT had some of the worst trains constantly breaking down loud and hot.The IND trains were either too old, some trains had no lighting in the cars.or the R-44 fiasco, The BMT had those old loud R-16's or the ancient relics from the IND painted in horrible blue and white.it wasnt pretty back then in the 70's.
It was plenty pretty, thats why you had REAL Graffiti artists making trains all beautiful. Dont complain. If art is a crime then im guilty as charged.
It's a crime, you're guilty. Art is fine, as long as it's not drawn on public property. You can graffiti up your house all you want, but not everyone likes to see your "tag" plastered all over the front of an otherwise clean subway car.
Dan
too bad its "clean" with everything thats wrong with this city, country, world!
You are a damned social punk. That's all you are!!!!
I loved the trains in the 60's. I lived on Long Island, and some days I would come into the city with dad, and while he worked, I rode the trains. He said the IND had the best cars, but I quicky found out that both the IRT and espcially the BMT had better. You had to go out to the canarsie to find standards.
I rember when the R27s were almost new, and I thought that they were the cat's meow. Then I saw brightliners on the Brighton and West End trains. Nice. Real nice, and clean too. None of the cars were airconditioned in those days, and so we never missed what we never knew.
And there were always food shops and vending machines all over the subway. Mystery Cola served in a paper cup for 10c. Everywhere you could buy pretzels or hot dogs, and the chewing gum machines were all over the place.
I could spend 15c and ride all over the city, all day long. I remember the first time I crossed under the river into Brooklyn. I had never been in Brooklyn before, and I was told that it could be a dangerous place. We actually I found out that I loved the place and most of my subway rides went south rather than north.
I remember the R1-9s on the IND, and I'd sneak inbetween the cars and ride on the conductor's steps.
Well in '66 I joined the Navy and was serving in Vietnam until 1970,
eventually worked, and even lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn for a while.
Trains were different in the late 70s and early 80s. I mourned the mixing of the BMT and the IND, and thought that things would never be the same. And the weern't. In 1983 I moved to North Dakota, and while we have 15 to 30 trains daily (coal east, hoppers west) none stop here and the nearest Amtrak station is a 3 hour drive away.
Well, either this summer or perhaps in October I shall ride Amtrak to New York for a two week vacation. I am planing trips on the Pelaham, and the Jamacia lines.
Until then...
Elias
I mourned the mixing of the BMT and the IND, and thought that things would never be the same. And the weern't. In 1983 I moved to North Dakota, and while we have 15 to 30 trains daily (coal east, hoppers west) none stop here and the nearest Amtrak station is a 3 hour drive away.
Well, either this summer or perhaps in October I shall ride Amtrak to New York for a two week vacation. I am planing trips on the Pelaham, and the Jamacia lines.
Well, when you arrive, you'll be happy to know that this mixing of the BMT and IND will largely be reversed (due to the closing of the side of the Manhattan Bridge that the connection was made to). Of course, the R will still run to Queens Blvd, and the F to Coney Island, but those connections were already made by the '60s when you remember.
Even though I remember the good things - I freely admit that things were quite bad too. Track fires, derailments, mechanicals failures, graffiti etc. By 1989 things had gotten much better including all of the equipment being free of graffiti and the bus fleet had also made a huge improvement. Those in charge at the time have something to be proud of - in fact I'd bet that person (if you can call him one) in City Hall now would probably try to take credit for that even though this was years before he became the Mayor.
Wayne
Wayne, you're absolutely right- soem of my out of town friends give Rudy credit for improvements that were pretty much done by 1989. However, (and I know this isn't eally the pl;ace for politics), I don't want to in any way diminish what Rudy DID accomplish.
Anyway, for the young guy who asked about the 70s......I was a child then, and I couldn't beleive that there wasn't ALWAYS graffiti and mayhem. It certainly didn't seem imaginable that it could ever get better. Returning civilization to the subway really was remarkable. Fro thos einterested, in the late 80s, the MTA was run by Richard (maybe it was Robert?) Kiley and the TA by David Gunn.
Before Robert Kiley, there was Richard Ravitch. You've mixed the two it seems.
Guilty as charged!! Thanks for setting me straight. I remember Richard Ravitch, but I wasn't sure of Kiley's first name.
When I first started riding them it was 1972 when I was seven years old. What I remember most about that first trip was being stuck in the tunnel leading out to the Jerome Avenue El in the Bronx for about an hour because some idiots had placed logs on the tracks. During the early Seventies through the mid Eighties graffiti was all over the place and during the summer the cars were hot as hell because they had no air conditioning. One of the older models that ended its days on the J line had rattan seats and fans which during the summer months were of little help. Though I never got to see the old Myrtle Avenue El, I saw the Bronx Third Avenue El several times as my family went from Freeport to Cleveland via the Cross Bronx Expressway. I remember the old Jamaica Avenue El quite well and remember going to an exhibit on it at the Bronx Museum of Art in the summer of 1979. Overall the subway system was interesting back then but it was neither as clean or as safe as it is today. Save for the tearing down of the aforementioned Els I would say that in terms of overall quality, these are the good old days.
E_DOG
A footnote I remember the Third avenue EL well my dad worked in the Gun Hill Road tower,back then they ran the old ancient Low V's with the 1939 cars,some were painted green.The EL was very short with curves the interesting stone structure around Bedford Park, crossing over Metro North, and going through alleyways near 149th street.It was a great railfan ride.In the EL's final years they ran the R-12's in fact you can see the R-12, up at the 239th Street yard, in pretty good shape for a car over 50 years old.
I think that that section of the Third Avenue El that went above alleys (i.e. Chicago) was just south of 149th Street and which went out of service when the Manhattan portion was closed in 1955.
E_DOG
The early 1980s were hell.
If This Aint Art I GIVE UP, YOU PEOPLE ARE HOPELESS
http://abpr.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/abprphoto.cgi?//october98/10-21-98/nycta6536on4at161st12-11-77jt.jpg
Sorry no for copy and paste, bad at HTML
Not quite Robert Crumb but did kinda have that "feel" to it ... then again so others understand where my own attitude came from, I always considered that stupid "war between the states" paint scheme to be tagging (though using official TA warpaint) and so decently done spray can art on top wasn't so out of place to me ...
And the whole "car theme" thing was a nice touch as I've said before. I just wish there were pictures of the "Jungle train," the "Tina Turner" train and a few others that were NICELY done where the entire car had a background color on which the mural work was done. With the "war between the states" paint job completely covered with something else that wasn't dirty and covered with steel dust, some of those cars did look a LOT better than "ta issue" at the time ...
I have those pics, want 'em? You're a good man ,Your posts never fail to ignite the mind, whatever the subject may be, keep living young - as my grandfather says.
Heh. I guess you can think that way once you find your way out of the NYC rat maze ... it ain't like gigs in the city pay enough to take yer soul ya know. :)
And yes, I would *love* to see them again ... addy up top is for real but you've done the email thang before. I think there might be a few unstarched souls here who might find it as pretty as I did too ... ya never know, a spray can and a dream. Heh.
you got it, Its underwayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Coolness on a stick ... with blintzes! :)
I was down in the riverside tunnel w/ people yesturday, there was a piece in there with the FRA address written and Mexican Railroad as well, for some reason, can you tell me what kind of trains run through there? I took some pictures, being the bad boy that I am I put a hobo Dinner knife on the track, boy what those things do to metal.
Freight and Amtrak, not much freight. Diddle if I know how the TexMex RR got in there. Might want to check for pods in the basement. Either that or Shrub's planning on drilling for oil. :)
And yeah, you should see what they do to people ... watch it down there, guys in the high iron aren't expecting company.
CARNE DIEM
Seize the meat
yea we figured that, after seeing sum "werk bums" we had to split towards 100st to an exit to the park through a hole in the ground with the help of a local homeless guy
Always carry a lantern and know how to swing it. :)
I could tell what it was like to ride the subways in the late 1940's and early 1950's, but I'm sure I'd hear "Oh God, that guy again. Is he still around?" But there were really some great things about those years. Would you believe a few stations in Manhattan actually had an ice cream machine that dispensed vanilla bars? Sometimes were even firm. And those Dentyne and Chiclets one penny gum machines, andthose peanuts. None of those exist anymmore, though I have seen some hot dog stands on the way down to the trains at some stations. But those hot dogs suck and the prices are sky high. I made the mistake of eating one two years ago and I was burping for the next six hours.
C'MON man ... NOTHING beat the good old "Yankee Frankee" at the Times Square #1 platform ... or of course at 59th, that fine French restaurant, nay-deeks ... (Nedicks with that weird orange drink that could light up a tunnel for miles) ...
I actually liked Nedick's. They sold it in bottles and I drank gallons of it. I often wonder what was in it and what happened to it. For a ten year old kid it sure tasted good.
Oh the REAL treat at Nay-deeks was their doggies with the buns cut the wrong way and that yellow poop they called "mustard" ... kicking back, foot against the stand watching the trains come into the platform. Nothing beat standup eating when your train rolled in. :)
Speaking of swinging lights, those lights the track workers use are quite bright. On the 7 Saturday they were doing track work in the Steinway tunes and those flashlights are VERY bright. They can be seen for quite a distance (and for good reason).
I wish I could get a TA issued flashlight for myself!
Pretty impressive, eh? You *do* want to be seen, better yet, seen far enough ahead that the wheels stop without running over yer shoes. :)
Those are not "flashlights". They are lanterns. They have
rechargeable lantern batteries and a very large bulb, and they
weigh a few pounds. The standard issue TA flashlight is the usual
yellow rubberized thing with a pair of D cells. Not nearly
as impressive.
One impressive note I heard of pertaining to these D cell "flashlights" is the TA is only buying the D cell batteries. They receive the flashlights as a thank you for the business to Rayovac. In other words, if an issued flashlight is lost, the employee is charged 2 dollars for its replacement yet the flashlight was on the house to begin with. No wonder the TA won't buy Mag Light products.
But one can only assume that the batteries are lost with the flashlight... the $2 must cover the batteries and the cost of labor to put them in ;)
I have a MagLite. I know that it's a no-no, but it's either that, or I'm one of the dreaded "Injury On Duty" stats.
One time I had to walk down a pitch black tunnel. It was so dark that you could NOT see your hand in front of your face (I tried it). I turned on the TA flashlight (with new batteries), and it lit up about two inches worth of the ground. How I made it out of that tunnel without breaking a limb is beyond me.
Ony do use it as a wepon if sombody Tries to Kill you.
Maybe there are stores that sell the "brakemen's" lanterns yet? I wouldn't know where, but they're quite the same as you describe and take a 6-volt battery which cost enough. I still use mine even being a bum now,meaning my "early retirement". .
My man ( his name on the board is Marty) has a kick ass lantern which he brought along to do some exploring while he was in New York, hopefully soon to be back, it was kick ass, in Ft. Tilden it lit up the old pill boxes like HOW. I need to purchase.
So they are lanterns. Well they sure are bright. Do they use a Halogen bulb? Sure wish I had one of those when the power goes out and it's pitch black.
I got a Halogen lantern type of light at Radio Shack a few years ago but like most stuff at Radio Shack it fell apart!
Maybe RS closed in Flushing since most people think it's crap! :-0
Sure wish I could get a good "lantern" like they use in the subways somewhere.
You can buy a Streamlight flashlight at good sports equipment dealers, or thru the mail from outdoor type catalogues or US Cavalry. They are the type the police use, with adjustable-focus halogen bulbs and are very, very bright, almost like hand-carried floodlights. They are also hefty in weight. I think they sell for around $75 each.
Nah, I think cops use the large long Mag Lites. Nothing else looks like that. It's metal and won't bust if you drop it. Flashlight and nightstick in one.
And it's perfect for hitting people on the head.
Esp. after the suspect grabs the officer's gun and tries to kill him with it. I know of at least one officer who had one hand's index finger blocking a pistol hammer while the other hand swung the flashlight on the suspect's head several times. The maneuver saved his life.
That's a bit expensive for my taste. Well maybe when I get some extra $$ I may get one. Or if a big 'cane is coming.
If a big "cane" ever makes it up the coast and into New York Harbor, you'll need a lot more than a flashlight. =)
Yeah a boat! And the subways would get flooded out.
Just imagine 53/Lex in a foot of water!
And imagine how fast a boat would do the dash through the tunnels. No timers to slow down THAT ride. :)
With the crippled transportation grid after such an event, I guess I should pencil in the NOITULOVER to be right after this ENACIRRUH.
You'll be buying the staob from your srelur gip!
!tfracrevoh si rewsna eht
Oom. :)
!tfarcrevoh si rewsna eht
Oom. :)
!LOL
!OAMLFTOR
Sdrawkcab gnihtyreve lleps s'tel.:-)
It's a tradition ... ecnalubma for example ... folks couldn't read it forward either.
Get a Long Maglite.
I'd like some of these too.
ok
IM putting you down also, appologizes to SelkrkTMO my mail server is down, I'll re-send tomorrow
MSN down ... what a surprise. (yawn) ... heh.
Can't wait until the software that powers MSN (Windows XP) hits the streets. :)
oy, I will resend my good friend, I promise. Off to plan another expedition that will be MUCH MORE FUN THEN STARING OUT THE FRONT WINDOW, how about going and touching and looking and being there, outside the window, seeing it work, but they will never understand, aint that right my man.
Heh. That's why I went for the Civil Service test back in 1969 and had to wait a year. They even let me climb on the cars. For PAY! :)
Did you ever feel tired after a day of climbing on and off those step plates? And did you mind getting your uniform dirty? Something tells me you didn't.:-)
Heh. I enjoyed it while I was a conductor ... all the way around. I was 19 at the time. :)
rather on its way
Personally, I hope the subways get tagged up again. Subway cars in them and of themselves are nothing more than rolling sardine cans. They are quite bland and boring. The R142 and R143 seem to be the best thing going lookwise, and that's not saying too much right there.
I'm always amazed at the sheer number of people who love these things. There's really nothing I find interesting about a sardine can on rails. But with grafitti, it gives that piece of tin a little personality.
Most graffiti was ugly crap like gang scrawls. The TA could commission some of the better artists to come in and paint the cars. Then they'd be doing their work legitimately, and everybody would be hap-E.
Oh, I will admit that alot of it was ugly, but still, I had grown up with the image of NYC Subways and grafitti going hand in hand. Now with all of these "clean" cars roaming around, it just looks boring. I wish the TA would hire a select number of artist to spice up the fleet, but that shall never happen. Oh well.
Actually, given the tendency towards bland tile work, back in the older days, there used to be cuts in the tile work for large display ads along the subway walls, especially on mezzanines ... a few set aside for artwork done OFF SITE and then judged suitable for "hanging" would be a nice touch. Stainless steel cars would not be a suitable display site these days. It was different back in the days of crappy paint jobs by the TA on the cars themselves ... there, the grafitti sometimes HELPED ...
Hello thats what you people don't understand, it wouldnt be fun if it was legal, although now artists who are and were serious are soooo hungry for steel they'd even go legit, like some of us did, at Phun Phactory, BUT THATS NOT NYC STEEL
You can have your fun at your own expense, not taxpayers' expense.
If you can't find some legal fun, then take some drugs. That's victimless and would be legal in a rational society.
That's victimless and would be legal in a rational society.
No, it's not a victimless crime. As a taxpayer, I am the victim, since it is my tax dollars that ultimately pay for the medical treatment, the social services, and all the other bills that the drug abuser generates, both for him/herself and others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
With the drug war, you pay it anyway, and it helps no one.
At least treating it like a health problem will both be cheaper for taxpayers, and less incorrect.
Oh, and I forgot to add:
If somebody gets into drugs, it isn't society's job to bail them out. They can have their friends or family help them.
"No, it's not a victimless crime. As a taxpayer, I am the victim, since it is my tax dollars that ultimately pay for the medical treatment, the social services, and all the other bills that the drug abuser generates, both for him/herself and others."
Then don't pay them that is a different issue if Someone has a hear attack from using drugs and can't pay for treatment and a private hospital doesn't want to give it away then we should let them die.
I can but I won't , my psycologist (dont ask) told me to do it he said "nah, dont stop doing graffiti, in fact do MORE of it, since its just about the only thing that keeps you sane" and he is an M.D
It's nice that today's doctors choose to take drugs instead of prescribing them.
you tell them Seven. You go man and tell them all.
If you waint ugly transit cars then come to Portland Ore,the max cars are fine but it's those damm ad's that are plastered all over the car sides.....they look like crap,and the buses...the entire bus is a rolling billboard...it sucks,they look worse than if a 2nd grader ran bunches of spray cans over them...but you know why it's legal..? because the tri met transit charges for the ad's....so have the T A charge to have the cars plastered with paint...where would the line start ?
There was a book of grafitti art that I used to see not too long ago. I don't remember if the ones you mentioned were in it (the "jungle" sounds familiar), but the one that stuck in my mind was the Mario & Donkey Kong car on the #1. This one I had seen live, though heading in the other way, back in '83. Being also a classic arcade fan, it was doubly interesting.
As I've said, *SOME* grafitti genuinely was art and should have been sealed in place ... we've seen enough recent photos of what the "official paintjobs" had gotten to look like at the time where the grafitti (when done mural style) was received by many as being almost "brand new cars" in appearance ...
And yes, I *do* respect the reality that it was a criminal act too (and no, I never vandalized anything myself) but a handful of the "artists" of the time were genuinely good at it and some of the trains were a pleasure to witness, ESPECIALLY on an el where you could really take it all in as it rolled by ...
That's filth, not art.
I'm afraid most New Yorkers who rode the subways at the time agree with me. Especially when the "art" obscured the windows and maps (and I doubt the advertisers were happy by "artwork" on their ads).
Besides, what makes you think you have the right to paint something that doesn't belong to you?
If I recall correctly, the graffiti artists never defaced the ads. It was as if the ads were somebody else's graffiti.
If art is a crime then I'm guilty as charged, what can I say, you must lead a very boring life my friend, I feel sorry for you in my own way. Lets not get personal though since this is a "transit" board.
I enjoy many pursuits that don't entail destroying the property of others.
I'm not the one with the boring life.
>>> Sorry no for copy and paste, bad at HTML <<<
For some reason when I tried to go to the link you posted I was unable to get past the title page. When I then started looking there, I was able to get to the thumbnails but was unable to enlarge them. The thumbnail looks similar to this picture which is on the nycsubway.org website.
Tom
yes thats the one, go on and tell me it ain't nice.
That particular work is nice, I must admit. If all the graffitti looked that good I wouldn't mind nearly as much. However, most cars tended to look like the farthest car in the picture, which as graffitti goes contributes little to the car's appearance, and just makes the car look messy. It was also having to ride in cars filled with ugly marker scrawls all over the interior that really soured me on graffitti.
Despite some of the nicer murals, I would still choose clean cars over graffitti because of this.
For someone who lived there 66-70, the graffiti originally struck me as a legitimate reaction to the TA's aversion to both cleaning and painting cars. Like the R1-9's apparently in delivery paint still lettered City of New York under 30 years of grime. OTOH the oxygen wasters who painted over windows or maps are a different story. In general "you" may IMHO paint your own property or someone else's WITH permission, but when your paint appears on my wall you should be nailed. As to "public" spaces, actual art on a freeway sound wall can't hurt(the wall itself is a wart on th planet) but simple tagging is dogs marking fire hydrants--a behavior beneath contempt.
It's not an era that I can recall with a lot of nostalgia. If you date your question from the opening of Christie Street, it was interesting to try the new routings, some of which didn't last long, like the NX and the KK up 6th Avenue from Broadway-Brooklyn.
I guess the best thing was that you could still ride and photograph some of the old equipment--last chance for BMT Standards, R1/9s and the R10s.
But the system was seriously deteriorated in many ways. Graffiti, insofar as it has a creative aspect, is best viewed from afar. Upclose and in overwhelming quantity it was oppressive. Slow orders everywhere. And until Bernhard Goetz put the spotlight on the issue, the after-school youth problem was amazing. A subset of kids felt they had a free hand to harass or worse.
Some excellent thoughts...indeed things were depressing especially the 70's...I left the city over the crime and fear in 1977 and came west.
For Mr. Rivera's sake I'd like to say [and sure you'll agree] too bad he didn't go back just 10 years more...to the early or mid 50's in his thoughts.
Chris, you could have seen the entire original IRT fleet [steel, anyway...the wood/composite cars were gone]; the entire original BMT fleet and wooden el cars of both systems. The IND you'd take for granted as I did as except for the R10's on the A train "they all looks the same"...of course later the R1-9 became the last jewels of the original fleets [even if some people have their other ideas about them]
Air. cond was not a way of life and we railfans loved all the railroad sounds...clickety clack of the RR track with the rock and roll ride, sounds of traction motors saying POWER. If nothing else the trains ran, usually on time and most of the time everyone felt safe.
But then I can understand younger people liking what they've experienced. I still cherish thoughts of what I knew.
Amen ... and I split at the same time too. Left behind a "ta" the way I'd prefer to remember it too, though the magic marker tagging honked me off bigtime. That's why I appreciated the small amount of actual "whole car outside" art that a handful of taggers DID do to that insipid "war between the states" paintjob that even R1/9's weren't spared from. But I've beaten this dead horse to death. :)
It was a real interesting time to be riding the subways, the best way to describe it is that the subways were in a period of transition.
In the sixties, you had alot of the original subway equipment in the process of retirement, and the phazing in of what I now call "second generation" equipment making their debut. I can remember trains of R38's, slant nose R40's, etc being mixed together. The Myrtle Avenue El ran it's last trip with the wooden Q cars in 1969, and the Third Avenue El made it's last trip in 1973.
I call the seventies the age of graffiti, and the early eighties the period of chaos when everything hit bottom. During this period, you never knew what equipment was going to show up at the station. I used to ride the F train to school, and we could get anything from an R10, R32, R38, R44, or R46. While the variety was fun, it ran very poorly.
That would be nice, to have all different equippment on a line so when you took it, you wouldn't know what you'd get, or at least it would be one of three things, like today's N line.
It was great!! The 60's made me a railfan as I fell in love with the BMT Standards and Triplexes. The saddest year was 1967 when the "T" stopped running - and Astoria was dumped on with the worst service ever - the "RR". Ahhh - the memories!!!
The train speeds were much faster on a consistent basis (esp. the #'s 4 and 5 trains). The train acceleration rates were much higher even as the train was leaving the station!!! And, it was great to see the hodgepodge of different car types in a single train of #'s 1,2,3, and 5 trains!! Tony
I can comment on riding in the 60's & 70's. First of all IMHO there's no comparison between today and those old days. There were a lot less timers out there and trains were faster. Even some locals weren't so bad. The problem is that in the 70's and early 80's the equipment was in much worst condition. A lot has changed. One is that now only the D line offers 24/7 express service. There were lots of great express runs that are now boring. The good things about riding in the present is that all of the equipment (expect the 40 R-33WF) is A/C equipped and graffiti is a thing of the past. I guess it's debateable whether today's scratchiti is more of a nuisance than graffiti.
Wayne
Agreed on the express runs. I haven't lived in NYC since 1973, but back then all the main Manhattan trunk lines had express service all the time...the A and D on CPW, the A on 8th Av, the D on 6th Av, the E and F in Queens, the 2 on 7 Av, the 4 on Lex and the N on Broadway. There was no such thing as partially closed stations like there is now (145 and 148 on Lenox, Broad and Wall on Nassau). I personally lament the passing of the Culver shuttle; did ride the 3rd Av el in the Bronx, but never got to ride the Myrtle Av line. The 63rd St tunnel is new, but, except for Roosevelt Island, is not really going any where new. The only thing, service wise, that seems to have improved is the A running express in Brooklyn during mid-day and later into the evening.
And there never was a long-term "temporary" change in service like what's been happening with the Manhattan Bridge the last few years.
>The only thing, service wise, that seems to have improved is the A running express in Brooklyn during mid-day and later into the evening.
And during the weekend! It's amazing how this line lived with rush hour only express service all those years!
There was much more of a variety, and everything was in its original state. There was alot of stuff that isn't around now; stuff that is still around was vastly different than in its rebuilt state today, and newer air-conditioned cars had a fresh feel and smell to them. There were different pain schemes too.
But by the late 70's and early '80's it was all becoming completely grungy, with grafitti, and the attempts to clean it (smudges, acid wash to the exterior, etc.), plus lack of repair, AC's not working as well, backlit ad panels becoming dim and dirty, and filth everywhere. This made the massive cleaning and rebuilding program a major relief, but then eveything now is almost the same (same interior pain schemes, non-AC's cars receiving AC's, and AC cars receiving older direct lighting, makihg rthe interiors of both types of cars look almost the same, not as much mixing as possible as before, etc.
I'd say that the difference between then and now is an equal tradeoff.
Are you old enough to remember riding those things? I am. Don't kid yourself, the old days, they were TERRIBLE! THESE are the good old days!!
E_DOG
I can testify only from the mid 80's on, but riding trains during this time meant busted doors, dark cars, almost no workable A/C, grafitti EVERYWHERE,frequent breakdowns/delays/derailments and the ever present risk of getting robbed by some punk
It's too bad because music and the radio were much better those days (in the 80s).
Q7---I don't want to get into an argument with you or anybody else on this subject, but let me make one thing very clear. The music in the Eighties cannot begin to compare with the Sixties. The creative genius of that period was remarkable. The Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, Doors, Animals, Redding, Conley, the Kingston Trio, etc, were absolutely great in their field. I'm convinced we will never have music of the kind we had in the 60's and those who weren't around to appreciate it missed out on a great deal of enjoyment.
You sound old and dated my dear friend Fred! Nothing will beat the big band, swing and jazz era of the 40's and 50's. Rock and roll began in this era only to lead up to what you are talking about.
Different strokes for different folks Marty. But you do have a valid point. The music of the Big Band era was very good, and when I see a movie set in the pre-World War or early Postwar period and they are playing one of those tunes I do get very charged up. I think, though, it has more to do with the people in America who lived through that terrible Depression, then went on to fight and win World War II. Still, the music was fine. However, I will still take the 60's.
Oh for sure fred. The 60's revolutionized what had up to that point been a very socially friendly environment with the exception of Elvis maybe Buddy Holly who shook the system but nothing like late 60's did. The acid rock era; to this date nothing has ever come close to shifting the balance of power in our society. It redefined our world as we know it today. Floyd, yes, Jefferson Airplane alone shook the whole government back then with Grace Slick being in the forefront of the counter culture revolution. Soft Machine,Jimmy Hendrix, Yardbirds, Deep Purple on and on. Not one period has changes the social landscape as much as this one did. Everything since has been an emulation of what happened back then.
I must admit that today's music has some real creative vibes to it. As much as I don't like Limp Biskit, they have reinvented the rock wheel in the new era. Pearl Jam along with Soundgarden brought back the integrity to rock music in the early 90's. Today one of my favorite bands TOOL is paving the way for new blood in rock and the Dave Matthews Band is turning out some very creative funk,pop music. Something fresh that is very appealing to me.
Fred as you put it, Different strokes, for different folks...
Marty.
It all depends on how old you are, Fred. I think that good music ended with the start of Rock & Roll.
Don't you hate being stuck in traffic and all you can hear is the pulse of the car immediately behind you...thump...thump...thump...thump!!!!!
Karl, the term rock and roll should have been buried in 1964. As you no doubt know what they call rock and roll has no similarity to what I still follow from the 50's [4500 recordings]. Actually most of my music is really rhythm and blues group harmony which the original rock and roll was adapted from.
Sounds like "Earth Angel" by the Penguins...I have hundred that have the same simple but beautiful group harmony sound. I can't stand the thump thump either...haven't liked it nor hard rock over 30 years worth already. But I do have to give the Beatles credit for imagination and some, but not all, good material.
You younger guys forgive the feelings here...I know what you think but consider I was young then and I still feel the same about it. I wish those [mostly black] groups had gotten their place in musical history, they did great work from the heart and got little.
There seems to be a revival going on in Philly. The PBS TV stations regurlary air "Do-Wop" shows recorded with live concert audiences. Many of the '50's groups are represented (these guys are older than we are), and they sound remarkably good. They're actually singing, not lip-synching.
Thanks to all of you who've shared my feelings. Nice to know another revival is going on, there have been a few over the years.
I was fortunate to tune in one of those shows last year and saw the Moonglows and Flamingos...two of my favorite Chicago-sound groups.They are a bit older than I am [born 1943] as were most of the established groups when I picked up r&b in 1955. Frankie Lymon originated the high tenor, little boy lead sound and he was a year older than I...many teeny-bopper groups followed.
Off topic..thanks again for sharing..back to mentally hearing my music while riding the old IRT!
The music of the 50's and 60's ruled.
Good man Karl. I knew I could count on you to drive some sense into these 80's types.
The music of the 50's and 60's ruled.
"I wanna hold your haaaaaand! I wanna hold your.........". I don't think so. I was born in the mid Sixties when my sister was a teenager and she was obsessed with The Beatles. Listening to that racket growing up(and music from other bands of that period)nearly blew my ears out. It got so bad that at one point I asked my mother if the trains on the Jamaica Avenue El were REALLY loud. And don't get me started on Elvis the pelvis. No, the music from that period wasn't very hot and as such it was no worse than what's being played today.
E_DOG
Nonsense. The music was sensational. You had Rock and Roll, Soul, Folk, and other types that gave everyone a variety of which to choose. I'm not a great fan of some ofthe crap that occurred in the Sixties like drugs, free love, dropping out or those filthy hippies. The music, however, was pure rapture. I reveled in it and long to hear songs of that period. Why is it that so many stations play hits from the fabulous Sixties? Because there is a great deal of interest in it. Come on, get real. The music of the 60's will never be equaled again. Well, that's mu opinion anyway.
I'm more of a 70's disco and soul guy myself - Earth Wind and Fire a major favorite, but I do have a growing interest in 60's stuff - Marvin Gaye, The Temptations, Gladys Knight and the Pips, The Commodores, et al.
I also like 80's adult contempo and R&B - James Ingram, Luther Vandross, George Michael, even Michael Jackson (like the music, can't stand the guy).
I'm also big on smooth jazz - Grover Washington Jr, Kenny G, Paul Hardcastle, etc.
But don't bother to even pay me to listen to 'NSUCK, the Backstreet Whimps, or any other current Pop bands.
And don't even get me started on [C]Rap!!!
Well i was pretty young still in the 80s, but i remember in the mid 80s when I rode the 4 Jerome Line from where i grew up (183rd) to the city many times to shop with my mother....I just remember the graffiti on the trains scaring me..and my mother telling me not to look at anyone, alot of the stations were in bad condition compared to today, it just looked bleeked, like a project on wheels or something, not a form of transportation....I asked my mother how it was in the 70s and she said alot of the same thing, except worse such as filthy cars...bad lighting...crime....
Well let's look at the positive side of it. Those days are over and I know from my recent trips to New York that there has been a great deal of improvement on the trains and, especially, in the city itself. I know there are many Giuliani critics around but your Mayor has restored a lot of greatness in New York. It is now a place to look forward to visiting instead of dreading.
But don't bother to even pay me to listen to 'NSUCK, the Backstreet Whimps, or any other current Pop bands.
And don't even get me started on [C]Rap!!!
An absolutely wonderful assessment! almost brings tears to my eyes.
>>> But don't bother to even pay me to listen to 'NSUCK, the Backstreet Whimps, or any other current Pop bands. <<<
I agree with you, but I find if I mute the sound, I can get through a Brittany Spears video (without being paid). :-)
Tom
Marvin Gaye. Now there was a piece of work. An absolutely fantastic entertainer. I loved his "Hitch Hike" and "Can I Get A Witness". He absolutely captivated me. What a load. But that Luther Vandross is a great singer. I had forgotten about him, though I should not have. He is one of the geniuses on the late 20th Century. His concerts out here get sold out real quick.
No argument about Motown and the music of the 50's, But since I wasn't born until 1970 I can't appreciate the way some of you do.
I was a Radio DJ in college '89-92. I did an AOR show and they guy who followed me, only 2 years ahead of me did an all-oldies show, owned over 500 45's. Oh the tapes we made....I've got 4 volumes of homemade Motown tapes.......I've always found it's great music to drive to.....try driving under any el on an overcast day with "Nowhere to Run" cranked up as loud as it'll go!!!!
Don't completely discoutn the 70's and 80's...It gave us Elton John and of course New Yorl's own Piano Man and my personal lord and savior...BILLY JOEL.....Subtalkers should appreciate the cover of the TURNSTILES album shot at the Astor Place Station
What the hell is wrong with free love? Marriage is an anachronistic institution. A piece of paper doth not love make.
Stow it Americano, that is just bull#$%^%&*. For you to say something so outrageous as that belies you apparent intelligence. For a smart guy that statement is pure garbage. Marriage is a fabulous institution. I used to think as you on that subject, but a friend told me not to knock it until I tried it. I did try it and it will be 31 years on August 1. I would never want to be single again.
>>> I'm not a great fan of some ofthe crap that occurred in the Sixties like drugs, free love, dropping out <<<
Damn it Fred, you missed the best part of the sixties! Of course they say if you can remember the sixties, you weren't really there. :-)
Tom
I loved the protests and the agitation Tom. I thought we had an opportunity to knock down some of the accepted mores of that time which to many of us was pure hypocrisy and phony. But those other people who dropped out. They contributed nothing and some of those from that group still haven't gotten their crap together.
I like the 60s music too, especially the Beatles and the Beach Boys.
I also can attest to riding in the late 70's and 80's and I remember whe the lights would go down mid-ride and then come right back up. I was always disappointed because I thought it was kinda cool!!!!
I remember a long summer ride out to Rockawayy Beach when I was either 9 or 10....seemed like it took forever on the long ride home they stopped the CC at euclid ave and told everyone to get off and then changed their mind and closed the doors with my mom halfway in and halfway out. that part was not fun
I can recall when I was little in the '70's, trains running with 1 isolated car due to malfunctioning doors or some such. I even recall a full pane of glass missing on a door on a passenger filled F train of R-40's. Plus, the graffitti was all over, esp. on the IRT. Not to mention the dark cars. BTW, some IND stations were allways dimly lit (esp. along the Fulton St and underground Culver lines until the early '80's). Tony
I remember getting off of of R-1/9's at 155 St. (Concourse line). It was like walking into the tunnel (lights inside the car were brighter than the platform). And with the moan of those old cars taking off, it was kind of scary.
Yup, even I remember the Fulton St. local stops with only incandescent lighting. The Fort Hamilton Pkwy and Church Ave. stops on the F didn't obtain platform flourescent lights until September 1987!
This is what Hollywood movies and tv shows were all about. Graffiti covered trains, running through urban decay is if this were Beirut, run by streetgangs in an urban wasteland only Hollywood could come up with.
NYC sure has changed. The system is much better and the neighborhoods all have gentryfied. Neighborhoods are what the subway system is all about. ENY, Harlem, Bed-Stuy, Brownsville.much better than 20 years ago.
As a lot of us have responded, VARIETY of equipment was a hallmark. Virtually every B Division line had at least three different models of rolling stock at a time; some, like the Queens Boulevard lines, had five or six. An IRT mainline train could be made up of six or seven different types, ranging from R-12 all the way up to 36.
Today, only the '6' and 'N' regularly have three different types of trains. Some other lines have two, and there are several, such as the '1', '3', 'D' and 'F', that only have one. Very boring, indeed.
Even the exterior and seat colors varied. Not counting graffiti, a train could be black, dark green, maroon, light blue/white or stainless steel. Around 1970, older cars on both divisions began to sport the thick blue stripe over gray exterior, already a TA trademark from the R42s. This actually fooled some people into thinking they were getting a 'new' IRT train.
Seats could be wicker, gray, pink, light blue, or after the arrival of the 44s, Roy (what I call a mixture of red, yellow and orange). From around 1990, by which time all overhauled cars had their pink or blue seats changed to gray, and 2000 whenthe 142s started running, every seat was either gray or Roy.
Up till at least 1974, most B division and ALL A division cars lacked air-conditioning, which required the windows to be open and made for very noisy rides, especially on express runs. It was very difficult, if not impossible, to hold a conversation. Chances were the hotter it was, the less likely an air-conditioned train would come, even on lines known for them. It seemed that during heat waves, all 'F' trains were R1-9s with non-working fans.
Speaking of express runs, grade timers hadn't come into force yet, so speed was much more of a factor, especially on the original IND lines along CPW and Queens Boulevard, which were designed for speed. The noise generated by an express bypassing a local stop made you hold your ears every time.
There was much less flexibility in transferring around the system, which required more roundabout trips. Many familiar interdivisional free transfers didn't come about until after Christie. The first new ones I can remember were between the IRT and Brighton at Atlantic, and between the 6th Avenue and Canarsie at 14th. Around 1970 the connection between the Flushing and 6th Avenue opened under Bryant Park. While it was being constructed, a paper transfer system was implemented, but only on weekdays.
Later, around 1978, the Atlantic free transfer complex was expanded to include the 4th Avenue lines. Around the same time, the 6th Avenue/Canarsie transfer extended a long block to the 7th Avenue. The existing passageways had already been in place for decades, but fare controls were removed. It would be whole decade until long-promised transfers were finally implemented to connect the 8th Avenue lines to the Times Square complex (through an original passageway) and the Lex with the Queens IND (through a newly constructed one).
There seemed to be many more variations of basic service, especially for the original BMT lines. The Brighton had three different trunk services during the week: to 6th Avenue, Broadway and Nassau. The original 1967 plan had three different services out of Jamaica: the 'JJ' dead-ended at Canal or Chambers; the 'QJ' ran through to Brighton; the 'RJ' ran through to Bay Ridge. There was also peak-hour express service the length of Broadway. A year later, with the introduction of the 'KK', the 'JJ' and 'RJ' were dumped, and the dreaded skip-stop concept took hold.
A lot more all-night service. Virtually all the Manhattan trunk lines had express service, as did Queens Boulevard and 4th Avenue. The fiscal crisis of the seventies introduced the concept of midnight shuttles for the Sea Beach, West End and Pelham lines. (Dyre and Rockaway already had midnight shuttles since their inceptions, while the remains of the Myrtle el had weekend shuttles since 1969 when the service to downtown Brooklyn ended.)
Of course, there were many more els. The Myrtle expired in 1969; the 3rd Avenue in 1973; the Culver shuttle in 1975; full Jamaica service in 1977. For more than a decade, Jamaica only had IND service along Hillside Avenue.
Many stations had vending machines selling gum, candy or soda- as for the latter, you'd often get the cup OR the soda, but seldom both. There were a lot more food stands, especially at major transfer points. My mother used to go out of her way for this bakery on the uptown local platform at 59th/Lex.
There were always homeless and panhandlers, but mostly on platforms, stairway landings or in passageways. Loud, aggressive orating (poverty or religion-related) really didn't start until around 1980. There were no 'coalitions' of people claiming to represent one homeless charity or another. There also weren't any roving candy, toy or electronics vendors.
There seemed to be PA announcements regularly on the Flushing line, but not so much on others- except possibly on the newer, air-conditioned cars. After a 1974 track fire in the Clark Street tube that stranded and injured many, a call went out for PA announcements in all trains. That's something that still is not completely realized in 2001.
Trains were just as impossibly crowded in rush hours, but much emptier middays, evenings and weekends. Now, thanks to an increased population and the Metrocard, they're packed ALL the time.
I started riding the subway regularly around 1978 for summer and intersession jobs during college. This was right around when the system started heading south, and I began to realize why a lot of people villified the system. For the summers of 1978 and 1979 I commuted daily between Flushing and downtown Brooklyn, which took an hour with normal service- which was the exception, not the rule.
Today, service and equipment are generally a lot better, but the experience is, in some ways, a lot blander.
I started riding the subway regularly around 1978 for summer and intersession jobs during college. This was right around when the system started heading south, and I began to realize why a lot of people villified the system. For the summers of 1978 and 1979 I commuted daily between Flushing and downtown Brooklyn, which took an hour with normal service- which was the exception, not the rule.
Today, service and equipment are generally a lot better, but the experience is, in some ways, a lot blander.
In this context, bland = good.
Any details on the Clark street tube fire? That sounded like a real disaster/.
Reading Howard Fein's post had me interested in when certain interdivisional connects were built/opened.
So, when were they made:
Bronx:
161st Street-Yankee Stadium
Manhattan:
168th Street
Columbus Circle
59/Lex
51/Lex ca 1988
Times Square
42/Bryant Park ca 1970
Herald Square
Union Square
14/6-7
14/8
B'way-Laf/Bleecker
Delancey/Essex
Canal Complex (the connection to the 6 part)
Chambers-Brooklyn Bridge 1962?
Fulton Complex
Park Place-WTC
Brooklyn:
Court-Borough Hall
Atlantic-Atlantic
Atlantic-Pacific 1978
4th Avenue/9th Street
Franklin/Fulton 1940 ticket/1999 direct
Franklin/Botanic 1999
Lorimer/Metro
Broadway-ENY Complex
Queens:
74th Street-Broadway
23rd Street-Court Square*
Queensborough Plaza** March 11, 1920
Archer Stations December 11, 1988
*Intra-divisional, but I know it wasn't always there or at least not inside fare control.
**Sorry, just HAD to mention it
I also rember the variety of service in the 1970s, although I caught the R1-9s just as they were taken off the IND around 1975 (some spent some time after that on the J & K, right?) I remember thr E & F running R40s, 42s &44-46s, at the same time, though to my memory, never on the same train.
Finally, I remember how loud and fast express runs seemed. Even today, R40s seem super-loud- didn't some them run on the N till 1999?
If my memory is right on these things, the TA didn't go nuts with all these tiemd signals till after the Williamsburg Bridge crash in 1995....in the late 90s, a whole bunch of timers appeared on the Lex and upper Broadway line (around 145 to 181 Street)...
Even today, R40s seem super-loud- didn't some them run on the N till 1999?
Some still do.
All I've seen on the N lately are R32s and R68s. In 1999, when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed to subways, some R42s got loaned to the N as well.
However, since that time, I've only seen the 32s and 68s.....although, of course, maybe it's just been my luck.
I saw a set of N Slant 40's at Dekalb Ave earlier this week as I traveled shotgun on my own Brighton-bound Slant 40. All hail the greatest NYC subway car (of the modern era [on the B division])!
The R-42? Or do you mean the R-38?
Don't crack wise with me, sonny. All your base, are belong to us.
I saw one a week ago at 34th. In one of the cars it was signed as a yellow upside-down B. Now, I know that wasn't right -- on an upside-down B, the slant would go the wrong way.
Back then, it was true Rapid Transit, not the Leisurely Transit of today.
Things were still halfway decent in the late 60s. The fare was 20 cents and the cars were still clean. The R-10s wore the teal and white racing stripe scheme and the R-32s still had blue doors. The R-16s and R-27/30s for the most part still wore olive drab. The R-1/9s still moaned and groaned on the IND while BMT standards plied the rails on the Canarsie.
Deferred maintenance took its toll in the 70s, and at the same time the graffiti epidemic hit with a vengeance. By 1971, my subway riding had dwindled to an occasional trip, and it wasn't until 1977 that I would resume riding on it somewhat regularly. It was depressing to say the least, what with every car covered with repulsive graffiti. I left for Colorado in September of 1980 and missed the entire period when the system hit rock bottom. By the time I came back for a visit in 1984, things were starting to get better.
I believe someone earlier mentioned cars in service without interior lights. I remember this was a common problem in the early 1970s. Sometimes the emergency lights (battery power, I assume) would be on; sometimes the car would be completely dark. This seemed to afflict cars of every vintage, from the R1/9s to the R42s. Door failures were common too, with only one of two panels working. Seats on the R1/9s were sometimes loose, and the lower cushion sections would slide off the base when someone sat on them. Basically everything that could break did.
Usual reason for dark cars of the R1-9 was vandalism...all 22 [IIRC] bulbs in the car were on one circuit each bulb being 30V. If one burned out or was removed the socket (or burned out bulb) bypassed itself so as not to open-circuit the whole series hookup which of course would darken the whole car. If you wondered why some were so bright it was because each bulb removed meant more voltage to the others. Too high a voltage would cause bulbs to start breaking so [IIRC] a fuse would blow and turn them all off.
So if a few bulbs were yanked [or if they didn't replace burned out ones soon enough] he whole car would go dark.
There was a recent thread on vintage transit books and the prices they realize when sold. Two items that were mentioned are currently on sale on eBay. (I have no financial interest in these auctions.)
#1151208815, The Sea Beach to Coney Island by William Fausser, currently $17.10. #4 Sea Beach Fred, are you there?
#1151208082, Brooklyn Trolleys by Greller and Watson, $14.10.
Both auctions end today - at these prices the items are a steal.
Staten Island Rapid Transit also popped up again, though it has a few days to run.
Georgie baby, I'm here. I just got on. Nuts. Listen, someone get that book for me if I can't. You let me know the price, and if it is under $35.00 dollars I will buy it from you. I will try to get on E-Bay to get it for myself. I have to have that book. I hope it is not too late.
Been toying around with another idea how to relieve Lex crowding, your reflections would be welcome.
My personal observation has been that during rush hour southbound Lex locals discharge a significant amount of passangers during rush hour as also not all the passangers fit the trains at all times. Park Avenue has no bus service north of GC and due to the blockage by CG itself seems to be relatively less used than other through running avenues. A bus service for commuters could IMO significantly relieve the pressure to subway to redistribute those pax in CBD, also psychologically being more acceptable for suburbanites.
Could a fare contolled area be built in CG to facilitate quasy POP system as per study in LA 20% of the time is wasted in the stops. Again no fare control IMO would be acceptable as those shuttles would provide little use for anyone already not taking another form of transit, or perhaps a true POP with hefty fines.
Also if trolleys were ever to return to New York, PA North of GC would be an ideal place, after left turns were to be eliminated.
Arti
"My personal observation has been that during rush hour southbound Lex locals discharge a significant amount of passangers during rush hour as also not all the passangers fit the trains at all times. Park Avenue has no bus service north of GC and due to the blockage by CG itself seems to be relatively less used than other through running avenues."
A traffic study would be needed here. I wouldn't mind one being done.
" A bus service for commuters could IMO significantly relieve the pressure to subway to redistribute those pax in CBD, also psychologically being more acceptable for suburbanites."
There is no great outcry for bus service to replace subway service, Arti. Not even suburbanites are complaining about that. It's a solution in search of a problem. In contrast, the city is faced with demands for more bus service, in addition to more subway service.
Your post has some valid ideas for exploration, but I suspect you intend it as another "Let's not build Second Av" tome. You were in the distant minority in New York the first time with that. I don't think that's going to change.
[There is no great outcry for bus service to replace subway service, Arti. Not even suburbanites are complaining about that. It's a solution in search of a problem. In contrast, the city is faced with demands for more bus service, in addition to more subway service. ]
There is a problem actually. The Lex local is so overcrowded during rush hour that something needs to get done. I personally try to avoid being there, but if I have to I usually opt for the bus. Done some timings and it's about the same time for me including waiting and I can usually get a seat.
[Your post has some valid ideas for exploration, but I suspect you intend it as another "Let's not build Second Av" tome. You were in the distant minority in New York the first time with that. I don't think that's going to change. ]
I have never opposed 2nd Ave Subway. But Lex condidions are horrendous and some pie in the sky is not going to fix them anytime soon.
Arti
I'm not sure what purpose there is to this thread, Arti. The answer to Lex overcrowding is a Second Av subway, and that's in progress. There is not much more you can do than that.
Wasting time and tax money on alternatives on unneeded distractions is not something the MTA needs to do right now. There are too many other, legitimate demands.
[I'm not sure what purpose there is to this thread, Arti. The answer to Lex overcrowding is a Second Av subway, and that's in progress.]
2nd Ave is a long term solution, but the conditions currently are already intolerable, people forced to let the train go past simply because they don't fit in.
[There is not much more you can do than that. ]
That's a nice attitude.
[Wasting time and tax money on alternatives on unneeded distractions is not something the MTA needs to do right now.]
OK now I get your agenda, are you afraid that any of it could stop 2nd Ave subway?
[There are too many other, legitimate demands. ]
So you're saying that trying to do someting about Lex is not legit.
Arti
[Wasting time and tax money on alternatives on unneeded distractions is not something the MTA needs to do right now.]
OK now I get your agenda, are you afraid that any of it could stop 2nd Ave subway?
Widen your field of view, Arti. The capital plan has a lot of projects in it. Do we want MTA to spend money on special bus services along Park Avenue when bus service in the Bronx needs beefing up? There are lines in Queens and Brooklyn which need attention; there are ADA upgrades to do; there are depots to rebuild.
The Lex' overcrowding is a very legit problem, but it is being addressed. There are other demands elsewhere on the system which will not be addressed if MTA spends money on Arti's Pet Project (so named since virtually no one else is asking for it right now).
[Widen your field of view, Arti. The capital plan has a lot of projects in it. Do we want MTA to spend money on special bus services along Park Avenue when bus service in the Bronx needs beefing up? There are lines in Queens and Brooklyn which need attention; there are ADA upgrades to do; there are depots to rebuild.
The Lex' overcrowding is a very legit problem, but it is being addressed. There are other demands elsewhere on the system which will not be addressed if MTA spends money on Arti's Pet Project (so named since virtually no one else is asking for it right now). ]
Funny that you brought up ADA access, on Lex during rush hour it is meaningless as anyone who would need it woudn't be able to use the subway anyway. Also the only person on this board who seems to support it is you, so shall we declare it your pet project. IMO ADA is mostly a project providing political "value"
As far as Lex overcrowding being dealt with. Where, 20 years in the future? That does nothing right now, does it? If there are inexpensive alternatives, shouldn't they be looked into. And it may be my pet project since I have to use Lex frequently. I reccomend you to ride it sometimes to get a perspective, or to put it the other way "widen your field of view"
Arti
"Funny that you brought up ADA access, on Lex during rush hour it is meaningless as anyone who would need it woudn't be able to use the subway anyway. Also the only person on this board who seems to support it is you, so shall we declare it your pet project. IMO ADA is mostly a project providing political "value""
And the Subtalk board is very representative of the general public, isn't it?
Tell you what, Arti, why don't you go up to 100 senior citizens, mothers with strollers, people in wheelchairs, people with poor vision, people who carry shopping bags, and their relatives and friends, and tell them ADA is just a bunch of political crap. Why not start close to home: Do you have grandparents? Does anyone in your family use a cane or walker? Anyone in your family have diabetes, with complications like foot ulcers? How about blindness, seizures, congestive heart disease? Know anybody like that? Do you think they'd appreciate the kind of insensitivity and outright ignorance you showed in your post? Do you think MTA should appreciate it and use it as a basis for policy?
BTW: The Lex is getting access: Did you read the Capital Plan figures for 2002? The White Plains Road line is getting a lot of ADA work. I ride the Lex frequently, incl. to the Bronx, and I welcome that. When I was in New York it was several times a week; now it's nearly every time I visit NY (3-4 times per month). I know first hand, as well as anybody on this board what the Lex is like.
Well, I think you have enough to chew on. Think about it.
1. ADA is required to get federal funding, if that wasn't the case would MTA consider it?
2. ADA in my book is not high priorty, people with disabilities have alternate means of travel.
3. The system worked without ADA for decades.
[BTW: The Lex is getting access: Did you read the Capital Plan figures for 2002? The White Plains Road line is getting a lot of ADA work. ]
Unfortunately this will do nothing for the people who need it during RUSH HOUR as they will not be physically capable to fight to get into the subway :-)
[When I was in New York it was several times a week; now it's nearly every time I visit NY (3-4 times per month). I know first hand, as well as anybody on this board what the Lex is like. ]
Interestinly from my observation the local on Lex seems to be more overcrowded than the express, what has not been the case about a year ago. I have no idea what has changed.
Arti
ARTI: 1. ADA is required to get federal funding, if that wasn't the case would MTA consider it?
RON: I don't know how high a priority it would get. It would deped on us as citizens to demand it. That's how ADA was passed into law. I'm glad we have it.
"2. ADA in my book is not high priorty, people with disabilities have alternate means of travel."
Inferior means, mostly. The disabled, the elderly and the infirm pay taxes, too. Like I said the first time, try that out on some real people around you and see what reaction you get.
"3. The system worked without ADA for decades."
And the US survived without civil rights for women and minorities for decades too. Maybe you'd like to persuade us that we can dispense with that, too.
[RON: I don't know how high a priority it would get. It would deped on us as citizens to demand it. That's how ADA was passed into law. I'm glad we have it. ]
How exactly did that happen? Was there a lot of publicity connected to ADA regulation?
[Inferior means, mostly. The disabled, the elderly and the infirm pay taxes, too. Like I said the first time, try that out on some real people around you and see what reaction you get. ]
Kind of difficult to try, perhaps if I were to writ to a newspaper and they were to publish it. At the same time I haven't noticed articles demanding such thing either.
Arti
"How exactly did that happen? Was there a lot of publicity connected to ADA regulation?"
There was a lot of organized activity, similar to the Civil Rights movement of the 1950's and 1960's. I don't know if you saw it, but President Bush signed ADA into law in 1990 in a public ceremony. There was a pretty big splash and a lot of headlines. That law started to lift employment and transportation barriers to a lot of deserving people. Not only that, but some people who were net "tax consumers" are now employed and are "tax-producers" in part due to the effect of ADA. That reduces the burden on other taxpayers.
One difference, though, was that, unlike the Civil Rights marchers of those decades, the people fighting for ADA did not get shot at, lynched, spit on, or attacked with baseball bats and attack dogs. They were, however, ignored at first, treated with a paternal, condescending attitude and had their agendas "shelved." But there's nothing like determination: you see, as it turns out, military veterans benefit from equal access to public facilities under the law; the elderly benefit from it; and others as well. So a lot of people joined the effort.
Being forced to use entirely separate facilities is stigmatizing and hurtful, and starts on the "slippery slope" to inferiority; that's part of the reason why the Supreme Court outlawed racial segregation in Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954.
If the disabled are forced to use "alternate means" only, they are vulnerable to these same effects, expressed as budget cuts to programs that politicians perceive to be only benefitting a "few people." But if we build all our public facilities to accommodate most anyone, there is no issue anymore.
ADA helps everyone: If Hulk Hogan (or take your favorite he-man) was carrying shopping bags full of stuff home, would he prefer to climb stairs, or use an elevator? (Let's say his Rolls is in the shop and he needs to take mass transit today). If you were hiking at Pelham Bay Park all day and returned to the subway with your feet killing you, wouldn't you appreciate a gentle ramp or an elevator at the station?
MTA, SEPTA, CTA all run old systems. So it's unrealistic to expect them to become accessible overnight. But ADA recognizes that, and provides that a reasonable effort must be made to improve accommodation over time. The White Plains line project, the 8th Av-Fulton project, the Main St. station reconstruction, the Port Washington Line (only two stations will not be accessible there), SEPTA's Market-Frankford reconstruction projects, are all examples of this.
I have CP myself - very mild. I consider myself lucky. I played intramural football, went hiking and bicycling, swimming, did most everything. But had my stroke been just a bit worse, there would have been places I never could have gone (including a lot of medical schools, some of which refused me as it is). I survived without ADA, just as some very successful, exceptional blacks got there without the civil rights laws. But why should I be an exception? I fight to level the playing field. This isn't a matter of special favors - since the "favor" here is of benefit to everyone.
Thanks, very informative.
I thought ADA was much older than that, I didn't notice it of course as I came to US in mid 1990.
BTW by alternative means I was more thinking of bus system.
The problem with Subway is that even if the station is elevator accessable there is no guarantee it being in working order.
Arti
"The problem with Subway is that even if the station is elevator accessable there is no guarantee it being in working order."
Yes, there are challenges in life. The only way to guarantee failure is never to try in the first place.
Where were you living prior to 1990?
Yes, that is why BART was sued on behalf of elevator users. The result--courtesy of a consent decree--is more attention to maintenance and signage by each primary booth with updates on out of service elevators. And while my legs still work, I have a step daughter in Manhattan who is on wheels courtesy of 'Bambi' on the highway. It is frustrating to try to get much of anywhere together other than on the buses or just 'walking'. We look forward to the rebuild at Roosevelt so we can sample interesting food in Queens when I visit.
With a lot of competing priorities, transit systems do drop the ball on things like access. "We'll get to it later we've got big fish to fry right now," is all too common. But it happens - it doesn't mean BART is evil. It does mean we as citizens must help maintain the accountability of public agencies.
[Where were you living prior to 1990? ]
Tallinn, Estonia
No subway, but trackless trolley and narrow gauge trolley.
Arti
Interesting.
I've never been to that part of the world. I did read a history of Finland a few years ago, by authors named Jutikala and Pirinen (I don't remember the spelling exactly), and remember their describing the Estonian and Finnish languages as being very closely related.
So you would speak and write Estonian and Russian in addition to English, right? And you could probably understand Finnish as well, if the above is correct.
Do you still have family there?
[member their describing the Estonian and Finnish languages as being very closely related. ]
Quite a bit, IMHO more close than Polish and Russian for examle.
[So you would speak and write Estonian and Russian in addition to English, right? And you could probably understand Finnish as well, if the above is correct. ]
That's correct. I picked up Finnish by watching TV and a little bit German at a level that I was able to read technical literature.
[Do you still have family there?]
Actually I came here alone, so all my family is back there.
Arti
It must be tough for you. Do they visit here, or do you go there? By the way, did you live in Tallinn, or another city?
In my family, my father was from Austria, but grew up in France. He speaks, reads and writes English, German, French, Hebrew and knows a bit of Arabic and Spanish. My mother is originally from Iraq and speaks French, Hebrew and Arabic (multiple dialects) fluently. I am the least trained in the family (English and Spanish fluently, and my Hebrew's getting rusty).
Since this is a bit off -topic, feel free to email me if you want to continue (my email is active on the board, as you can see).
Finnish and Estonian are not Indo-European languages.
Those two and Hungarian and Basque are the only non-IE languages in Europe.
Finnish and Estonian are not Indo-European languages.
Those two and Hungarian and Basque are the only non-IE languages in Europe.
Albanian was long thought to be non-Indo-European. Only in the last few decades was it finally assigned to that family. It obviously is very different from all other IE languages, hence the long confusion.
A good friend of mine is a native Albanian; her mother was a professor of literature there and in Italy. I should give a buzz and ask her about this stuff...
You forgot Turkish. Also Lappish spoken in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia which is Fenno-Ugric + numerous other Fenno-Ugric languages spoken in European part of Russia.
Arti
I didn't think of Turkey because it has only a little part of Europe.
I didn't know about the other languages you're talking about! But it's always nice to learn more.
[I didn't know about the other languages you're talking about! But it's always nice to learn more. ]
Here's a link.
http://eunuch.ddg.com/LIS/InfoDesignF97/paivir/finnish/finnugr.html
A trivia note Livonian (about 10 speakers) is another F-U language spoken outside Russia.
Does Livonian include a written language as well?
With only 10 speakers, it will lose "critical mass" soon and disappear unless someone carefully records an archive with pronounciation rules, a vocabulary glossary, meta-thesaurus and historical notes.
Any interested graduate students out there?
[Does Livonian include a written language as well? ]
The first mention of a written Livonian is from 1525. The earliest preserved sample is from 1789. Dictionary and garammar published in1861.
[With only 10 speakers, it will lose "critical mass" soon and disappear unless someone carefully records an archive with pronounciation rules, a vocabulary glossary, meta-thesaurus and historical notes. ]
Fortunately Fenno-Ugric studies are well funded in Finland. Also after the breakup of the USSR there is renewed effort in Latvia to preserve the cultural heritage. I think I've seen an online Livonian dictionary.
At least they'll have a Subway stop to commemorate them :-)
Arti
A trivia note Livonian (about 10 speakers) is another F-U language spoken outside Russia.
Back on topic!
www.sil.org has good information on the populations and geographic spread of languges. I think they have some religious angle, they want to translate the Bible into every live language IIRC. That would be terribly expensive to do right
It's thought that Turkish and other languages from the Altaic group (Mongolian, Korean) might be related to the Finno-Ugric (which I think is a subset of the Ural) group, creating the "Ural-Altaic" language group, which is even more globe-spanning than Indo-European. That would mean that Hungarian is related to Korean. What a trip!
Hebrew, the language of my people (not me specifically) belongs to a much smaller group (at least regarding living langauges. Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic (almost dead) and Amharic are all Semitic, which is a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic Group. The African branch is "Hamitic" languages like Egyptian, many of which (including Egyptian) are all-but dead.
:-) Andrew
[creating the "Ural-Altaic" language group, which is even more globe-spanning than Indo-European. That would mean that Hungarian is related to Korean. What a trip! ]
What I understand, this theory has lot of opponents. BTW doesn't Ural-Altaic theory date back to 19th century?
Arti
Aramaic is almost dead?
Who speaks it today? (As a language, that is, not in the study of Gemara.)
There are quite a few Uralic languages in Northern European Russia, distant cousins of Finnish, & Lap.
Maltese is descended from Arabic. Chechen (and some of it's cousins) are not IE.
Of course, ALL of Chechens cousins are not IE languages!
Of course, ALL of Chechen's cousins are not IE languages!
And you're not the only one on this board who is a proponent of ADA access in the subway. Although I can't see making a major investment solely for the purpose of implementing ADA in the subway system, making ADA changes as other renovations are performed is a cost-effective way of enabling handicapped people to access more of the city. With my arthritis, heart, and other medical problems, I have good days and bad; on the bad ones stairs are out of the question, while ramps and elevators enable me to get around.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
With all due respect, ADA is not the silver bullet you make it out to be.
ADA is great for people in wheelchairs, for whom a single step is an absolute impediment.
It's not great for people who find walking painful.
I was in such a position a few weeks ago. I had trouble walking at all. Stairs, particularly going down, were slightly worse than flat ground; ramps were much worse than stairs. The point being that I preferred to use a nearby staircase than to walk even a moderate distance to an elevator. And what's with the elevators that are only accessible via long, winding ramps? I was in such pain after limping down the ramp on the mezzanine at (IIRC) Union Square to the elevator to the L platform that I would have been much better off using the stairs.
I would have found it much more useful if money had been spent on escalators and moving walkways instead of elevators. In fact, I suspect that just about everyone except those in wheelchairs would see much greater benefit in escalators and moving walkways.
You're right - ADA is not in itself a panacea for all ills. But it is as close as we could ever hope to come to require that facilities and services be made accessible to the disabled.
One hopes that, in the course of complying with ADA, a company or govt agency designs its facilities to help the most people. Some facilities are designed better than others. One thing you should keep in mind about your particular case: While you could use an elevator, although walking was painful, there are many more who cannot use stairs or an escalator at all - and this group includes a lot of able-bodied people too (kids in strollers). An elevator is the only option which will help them. So deciding to spend money on escalators INSTEAD OF elevators is clearly inappropriate.
From your post, it sounds like your disability is temporary (but you'll correct me if I'm wrong). If so, I wish you a speedy recovery.
One hopes that, in the course of complying with ADA, a company or govt agency designs its facilities to help the most people. Some facilities are designed better than others. One thing you should keep in mind about your particular case: While you could use an elevator, although walking was painful, there are many more who cannot use stairs or an escalator at all - and this group includes a lot of able-bodied people too (kids in strollers). An elevator is the only option which will help them. So deciding to spend money on escalators INSTEAD OF elevators is clearly inappropriate.
I'm not sure if that's accurate.
People who must use wheelchairs can't use escalators or stairs. Kids in strollers can't (safely) use escalators but can use stairs with a small degree of inconvenience. And anyone wheeling anything with at least two axles can't use escalators without lifting it. (A wheeled item with one axle can be rested on an escalator step.)
People who any sort of leg or foot injury that makes it difficult or painful to walk but are still able to do so will probably use whatever requires the least walking -- elevator, escalator, or staircase. I think this class is significantly larger.
And I don't think anyone loses out with moving walkways.
Now, I'm not arguing that elevators shouldn't be installed. But elevators tend to be very expensive in the setting of an existing subway station that wasn't built with elevators in mind. In particular, in most stations, there isn't anywhere for the elevator shaft to go without a lot of construction. An escalator is much, much cheaper. I don't have exact numbers in front of me, but which would you prefer to see, an elevator in one station or escalators in a dozen?
Not that my opinion matters, since the TA must comply with ADA regardless. I just wish, with all the money spent on those with one sort of disability, some were left over for those with a different sort.
From your post, it sounds like your disability is temporary (but you'll correct me if I'm wrong). If so, I wish you a speedy recovery.
Thank you. It lasted two or three weeks and then mysteriously vanished. It sure made running up to the railfan window a (literal) pain -- but it was certainly worth it!
"People who any sort of leg or foot injury that makes it difficult or painful to walk but are still able to do so will probably use whatever requires the least walking -- elevator, escalator, or staircase. I think this class is significantly larger."
That may be, but ADA is about universal access, not majority access. So we can't consciously leave out some people in a facilities design. After all, the average existing, non-compliant subway station already offers access to a majority of people.
"And I don't think anyone loses out with moving walkways."
I agree. Moving walkways are cool.
"Now, I'm not arguing that elevators shouldn't be installed. But elevators tend to be very expensive in the setting of an existing subway station that wasn't built with elevators in mind. In particular, in most stations, there isn't anywhere for the elevator shaft to go without a lot of construction. An escalator is much, much cheaper. I don't have exact numbers in front of me, but which would you prefer to see, an elevator in one station or escalators in a dozen?"
Again, I refer you to my earlier point: Consciously denying access to a class of people who need elevators and can't use stairs or escalators (and where there is no room for a suitable ramp) because of cost-efficiency violates not only the letter, but the spirit of ADA. It's unethical, pure and simple. Now, it also means that progress will be slower - but with patience, you'll see progress.
Even with ADA, some renovations do not include ADA access. PATH renovated some stations without installing elevators. They made partial improvements, including tactile strips and improved stairways. This is because a "key stations" strategy can be shown to substantially comply with ADA, the idea being that one particular station does not have to be compliant, so long as there is a compliant station somewhere nearby in the area.
Obviously, I want all stations to be compliant - eventually. But I am satisfied by plans which carry out improvements, within fiscal constraints, over time.
The idea of adding bus service to Park Avenue was raised when exact fare went into effect. The TA suddenly found itself with surplus buses. There was sufficient opposition to kill the plan.
[There was sufficient opposition to kill the plan. ]
Who was opposing it and with what arguments..
Arti
Does the ta have any r12s in storage?
No.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
***RUMOR*** has it that there might be one or two cars sitting out in the back of the 239th St yard somewhere ... anybody KNOW?
I *hated* those things when they replaced the LoV's on the 3rd Avenue El ... same window and car concepts as the R10's, but IRT sized and three windows in a group instead of pairs. Nothing LIKE the R10's though ...
There is one at the Transit Museum, or is it an R14.
I'm the opposite, I loved them on the Third Avenue El.
Did ya ever get to do the LoV's? With the different style of that el and the scrollwork and platforms and all, the LoV's really *fit* ... prior to the LoV's, those old BMT Q cars ran that line too. But I guess the #1 line was glad to get those out of their consists. :)
I barely remember the Lo V's on the El, I was just 4 years old when they were finally pulled. I have an early memory of going to Fordham Road with my Grandmother and grabbing one back to Gun Hill Road. I think we bused it down, and trained it back. I remember the interior clearly.
My Grandfather didn't have a car, and he used to take me and my brother down the 3rd Avenue El from Gun Hill Road, and then we would switch to the 2 because it was easier for him to get down those stairs at Gun Hill. He'd let us look out the front window from the R12's.
At least you got to see them ... a lot of folks here would have loved them - not for everyday use, but just for the novelty. Yeah, if you had a couple more years on you to have appreciated them at around age 10 or so, you'd probably be whining like I am about their demise. They were in TERRIBLE shape but they were genuine fossils on wheels worthy of appreciation for just that.
I rarely took it southbound - I lived near the terminus of the D train in "Norwood" at the time and well ... getting to work on time was enough of a challenge without throwing the "slow train to 'china'" into the mix ... but on the ride home, especially if it was raining (my house was right next to the 204th St platform on Webster) you couldn't beat the ride home on the 3rd Avenue el just to stay dry. :)
It was a nice bucolic ride though that just screeched out "I'm living in the 1930's" ... the R12's kinda ruined that with their 1939 Flushing line heritage ...
If you meant to say the R12 is from 1939 (there are from about 1948), it's a Low-V derivative with a very similar roof that's from 1939.
Funny how each BMT/IND car's derivative on the IRT had different personalities, sometimes better, other times worse. R12/14's were no R10's; R16 were no R17's; R11's were no R15's, R36 and R32 --- I don't know.
Could be ... all I knew about them is that they derived from the Flushing line and like that last order of LoV's with the route signs on the ends, they were also called "worlds fair cars" by the folks I knew at the time. They looked like little A trains that breech birthed. Didn't much like them ... they rode like rustbirds do today. :)
Yes, the Steinway World's Fair Lo-V (I fondly nicknamed them the R-8s), were strange cars indeed - only fifty were made and only one survives; I rode them on the 3rd Avenue El - they felt like R-9 cars and had the biggest ceiling fans I ever saw. And they were a miserable shade of green too. They were built in 1938 and followed the BMT MS lead in sporting a somewhat modified ogee roof line. I liked all the little rivets they had round the edge of the bulkhead. And they were the first IRT cars to have bulkhead signs (BMT (MS and D type) and IND cars already had em)
wayne
They were strange hulkers ... fortunately for my own personal sanity, they only put those things on the ends. The three monkeys in the middle were more traditional LoV's ... I think one was an unpowered trailer in the middle but that's BigEd country, I'll let him say it for the umpteen millionth time.
Yo Ed! Got indication? :)
Well, the R27/30 have their counterpart in the R26/28. The lost R39 order would have been the counterpart of the R38 had they built it.
R32 and R36wf are pretty different from one another structurally and visually; mechanically they may have some things in common.
wayne
The 29-mainline 33 was a bit closer to the 27/30. The 26/28 had the pink seats (like the 27/30 and unlike the 29/33), but also had some other things the 27/30's didn't have, such as a different manufacturer (ACF instead of St. Louis Car), 7000 series instead of 8000, and an extra red fault light above the windows inside.
Funny how each BMT/IND car's derivative on the IRT had different personalities, sometimes better, other times worse. R12/14's were no R10's; R16 were no R17's; R11's were no R15's, R36 and R32 --- I don't know.
I'd say the R62/R62A is a much better looking version of the R68/R68A.
:-) Andrew
The Transit Museum has a R-12 (also a R-10, 11, plus a R-1, 4 & 7a).
- Seashore in ME has a R-4 & R-7a ... it's their "A Train"
- Shoreline in CT has a R-9
- Kingston, NY also has a R-4
Seashore & Shoreline's old Rs still operate just fine thank you.
Mr t__:^)
According to my mostly reliable source, cars 5760 and 5782 have been preserved for the museum. I am not sure which - if either - is currently on display.
When LIRR gets the GC access this will undoubtfully increase the pressure on Lex. Wouldn't having a station around 57th St make sense alleviate that. Has it ever being proposed?
Also does anyone have an idea how easy it would be to transfer from the proposed Sunnyside Station to subways?
Arti
"When LIRR gets the GC access this will undoubtfully increase the pressure on Lex. Wouldn't having a station around 57th St make sense alleviate that. Has it ever being proposed?"
You mean an LIRR/Metro-North stop at 57th and Park? It's an interesting idea. Why not write to MTA and see what response you get? Post it here. Not a bad idea.
"Also does anyone have an idea how easy it would be to transfer from the proposed Sunnyside Station to subways?"
First off, any transfer facility would have to be ADA-compliant, so the physical circumstances for patrons would be easier than in older facilities, by design.
I don't have a map or diagram handy, so as far as walking distances go, I can't comment. Is the "7" train the closest to Sunnyside, or is it one of the lines under Broadway?
I will assume that the new transfer would include an ADA renovation for the subway station as well.
The rail station at Park Ave and 59th St was closed in 1896. The two side platforms are still visible.
Thanks for posting that. So it would be theoretically possible to do as Arti suggests.
OK Arti - put it on paper and send it over. Want the address?
Very theoretically. If memory serves me right, the platforms are less than 100' long. 59th street is used to store MofW supplies, while the other two are abandoned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Noted.
Next, someone will remember that the LIRR tunnel will be at a different elevation than the existing Park Ave tunnel and suggest building a transfer station underground at the point where they cross.
I'm under the impression that the new Sunnyside station is going to be close to the access to the 63rd Street tunnel, which would put it between Queens Plaza and 36th Street stations on the "Queens Blvd" line (which runs under Northern Blvd as that point). Am I wrong?
[You mean an LIRR/Metro-North stop at 57th and Park? It's an interesting idea. Why not write to MTA and see what response you get? Post it here. Not a bad idea. ]
Actually my thought was for the new LIRR tunnel, but MNRR wouldn't hurt either.
BTW what was the address to write to.
Arti
Wrie to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Thanks.
Arti
I just don't think it works without the Second Avenue Subway.
A interim station would slow down the line -- dwell time is a bigger issue on the commuter RRs. But if they were going to put one in, it should be on Roosevelt Island in Queens. A second 63rd Street service could switch over to the Broadway Line and run down the Broadway Express, perhaps going all the way to Whitehall. Maybe that would pull people off GCT and the Lex.
Another possibility is to run New Haven and Hudson Line trains to Penn (they could do it now, no?) and eliminate the free transfer to the subway at GCT. Commuters transferring to the subway at GCT would thus be charged more than those transferring elsewhere.
Still, looking to the future we gotta have the full Second Avenue, with connections to the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queesn, and with at least the RPA's reserved super-subway for the suburanites, if not a one-seat ride downtown.
yes the ENTIRE 2nd Ave line with ultimately a nerw tunnel to Bklyn.
as to Penn, the barriers are two. One, Penn is allegedly 'maxed out' at present, and two the running of trains off the NH or NYC lines will require ultimately converting to a single third rail system. (IMHO having two different systems at GCT as I understand the current planning is absolutle silly. This is like continuing dual guage rail operations.) As I have posted before, I believe there is a market forNH line commuter service to Queens with both transfers to AirTrain, and LIRR as well as throughrouting NJT to LIRR routes. (think the integration of former RDG and PRR lines by SEPTA)
Interesting idea about a commuter rail stop on Roosevelt Island.
(Interesting idea about a commuter rail stop on Roosevelt Island.)
There was a long ago Subtalk thread in which I suggested a temporary LIRR terminal station under the 21st Street subway station. Assuming the V would to run through the 63rd St tunnel and would have excess capacity, I thought that would be a good transfer. Rather than taking a train north from Penn Station, Long Islanders could get out at 63rd and Lex and walk south, or ride down 6th Avenue.
That's a nice idea. ever say never...
I meant Never say never...
Brlliant!
I suggested a temporary LIRR terminal station under the 21st Street subway station. Assuming the V would to run through the 63rd St tunnel and would have excess capacity...
Let's see if I got this right.
The V, running at 10 tph, would have excess capacity. The TA can't increase the V service levels because they can't reverse more than 20 tph (V+R) at Forest Hills. They can't add any additional short runs, terminating at 21st St, because they did not build relay facilities into the 63rd St Connector. So, they must run the 63rd St trains at least as far as Forest Hills.
So, the only way for there to be excess capacity on these 10 V trains would be if very few people use it. If very few people would use it, why did they build it in the first place.
Did I miss something?
You probably missed the whole point of the letter. :0)
I agree with you completely that only a full-length 2nd Avenue subway will reduce crowding on the Lexington Avenue IRT.
Now, instead of building a station on Roosevelt Island, what about building one along the LIRR extension to GCT at 2nd Avenue, with a transfer to the future subway. While under the presumption that a full-length 2nd Avenue subway will be built, I assert that this proposal would accomplish two goals: 1) a convenient 2-seat ride for LIRR commuters to downtown, and 2) help reduce the augmented loading on the Lexington Avenue line from the LIRR extension to GCT.
They say talk is cheap, and it is certainly easy to expound on how a commuter rail station should be built underneath 63rd street. I will come right out and say that I have done no research to study the feasibility of that option. I do believe it is theoretically possible, since the 63rd street subway line is above the future LIRR tunnels, thus providing an umbrella for existing utilities underneath which to work. In other words, the LIRR tunnels were supposed to go down there, so there shouldn't be much in the way. The only difficulty may be going wider.
The introduction of the LIRR into the underutilized GCT will no doubt increase loading on the Lexington Avenue line. Moreover, the majority of LIRR riders entering the Lexington Ave subway at GCT would be headed downtown in morning rush. Siphoning these riders off at 63rd street and sending them downtown on a parallel route 2 blocks away might help the crowding. The reverse would be true for the evening rush.
I believe strongly that commuter rail is a poor substitute for rapid transit over short distances. However, a 2nd avenue stop at 63rd street on the LIRR wouldn't be substituting for rapid transit. It would in no means be intended to provide mass transportation to GCT from 63rd street. For example, the trains could be discharge only to reduce dwell times in the morning rush. Instead, the stop could be a means for more evenly distributing passengers traveling downtown from GCT.
Or maybe someone else has put in more thought and reasoned why this idea would not work...
MATT-2AV
I believe strongly that commuter rail is a poor substitute for rapid transit over such disstances.
You maske some interesting points there. I haven't looked at this issue closely, but thereare places where additional commuter services might make sense. I wouldn't expect every train to stop at 2nd Av, but some at rush hour would. One limitation here is that LIRR will be two tracks across 63rd St. If you put a commuter ail station along there it would be nice to have a third, peak-direction express track for rush hour services...
That depends on dwell time vs. the anticipated headways into and out of GCT. Any idea what is planned for headways?
No.
[The introduction of the LIRR into the underutilized GCT will no doubt increase loading on the Lexington Avenue line. Moreover, the majority of LIRR riders entering the Lexington Ave subway at GCT would be headed downtown in morning rush.]
Interesting claim! One of the reasons for LIRR to GC was to provide the riders CBD east side access. From any practical point Penn would be much desirable for downtown commuters than GC, more service and less overcrowded. So I would doubt that majority would be heading downtown.
Arti
I'm afraid you misudenrstood my theory.
I simply asserted that the majority of LIRR riders entering the Lexington Ave subway at GCT would be headed in the downtown direction during morning rush.
The majority of those who do transfer to the 4,5,6 wouldn't be headed uptown... would they? Ridership presumptions could be misleading my judgment here.
I agree that most LIRR riders using the GCT extension would be headed for midtown, and thus not enter the Lexington Avenue subway at all. You are right: If you are coming from Long Island and you want to go all the way downtown, why not use Penn Station.
But I do think it is safe to assume that the presence of the LIRR extension in GCT would increase loading on the Lexington Avenue line to some degree. To how much of a degree? I don't know. It is very difficult to conceptualize the function of the entire transit system n years in the future.
MATT-2AV
[I simply asserted that the majority of LIRR riders entering the Lexington Ave subway at GCT would be headed in the downtown direction during morning rush.
The majority of those who do transfer to the 4,5,6 wouldn't be headed uptown... would they? Ridership presumptions could be misleading my judgment here. ]
IMO majority of local riders would have more reason to head uptown as there's significantly more places of employment than between Union Square and 34th Street. My observations seem to support that. That's where adding a stop around 57th Street would put more within a walking distance of the place of employment.
Those using express obviously have lesser reason to go uptown. It would be unfortunate if those heading to Financial District area would choose GC over Penn even more overcrowding Lex. Let's hope that old habits die hard.
[You are right: If you are coming from Long Island and you want to go all the way downtown, why not use Penn Station. ]
If to think of it Flatbush Ave should be the most logical choice for those, but doesn't, what am I missing here.
[It is very difficult to conceptualize the function of the entire transit system n years in the future. ]
Yep, who knows maybe advances in technology will make telecommuting prevailing.
Arti
(The introduction of the LIRR into the underutilized GCT will no doubt increase loading on the Lexington Avenue line. Moreover, the majority of LIRR riders entering the Lexington Ave subway at GCT would be headed downtown in morning rush. Siphoning these riders off at 63rd street and sending them downtown on a parallel route 2 blocks away might help the crowding. The reverse would be true for the evening rush.)
This isn't the best option. The LIRR will only have so much capacity going into Penn Station. Attracting Lower Manhattan riders to the 63rd Street tunnel would merely jam those trains, leaving the Penn Station trains underused. You have to find a way to get those traveling to destinations other than East Midtown to use Penn.
Hmm,
I didn't post what you are replying to.
I agree with you.
Arti
Well, if that's what the ridership data says, then I wholly retract my idea of adding a station on the LIRR extension and agree that adding a station at 57th on MetroNorth would conceptually be a better idea.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: Seriousness aside, I ask who wants to volunteer to deal with all the NIMBY$ down on Park when it's time to insert a commuter rail station right in the middle of their vast verdant Avenue?
There are no residents north of 40th and south of 59th.
No residents south of 59th?!?
Did everyone in 485* Park Avenue, 475 Park Avenue, and 417 Park Avenue move out? Can I have their apartments?
Constructively you are right. While there are some residents south of 59th Street, the residential nature of Park Avenue starts to trail off as you pass south over 59th street.
I might have been making a light-hearted joke about NIMBYs on Park Avenue, but there was a half-truth to it.
A station at 59th street would most certainly face some degree of NIMBY criticism, not only from residents immidiately upstream of 59th on Park Avenue (like the 510,535,550,555 buildings), but possibly from residents on immidiate side streets, like the 140 east 56th street building for example.
MATT-2AV
* Disclaimer: I am recalling these building numbers from memory. I only wish I was more familiar with that neighbourhood ;)
[I just don't think it works without the Second Avenue Subway.
A interim station would slow down the line -- dwell time is a bigger issue on the commuter RRs. But if they were going to put one in, it should be on Roosevelt Island in Queens. A second 63rd Street service could switch over to the Broadway Line and run down the Broadway Express, perhaps going all the way to Whitehall. Maybe that would pull people off GCT and the Lex. ]
I think you missed my point here. I'm not talking about Downtown pax here, they wouldn't be using Lex local, but people heading to CBD. The station at 57th St. (+ GC) would put most of them within the walking distance of it, incentive to walk being the horrendousness of Lex plus the added fare.
Is the projected TPH for LIRR to GC that high that additional stop would destroy the schedules? Wouldn't the same problem arise from Sunnyside station?
As far as Roosevelt Is. stop goes, isn't Sunnyside supposed to accomlish that?
Arti
I just found out "The Sea Beach to Coney Island" is on sale on E-Bay. My wife is right on it and I hope to get that book. If she can't make it, how about one of you guys helping me out. I will buy it from you. I want that book. Come through for me guys.
Fred, post your (or your wife's - whoever's bidding) eBay bidder name... I suspect that most folks here won't bid against you as long as we know you're the high bidder.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> My wife is right on it and I hope to get that book. If she can't make it, how about one of you guys helping me out. <<<
A good way to start a bidding war that will make the seller happy. Just think, Fred and three or four Sub Talkers all bidding to get the book for Fred.
Tom
Well not to worry Tom. I didn't get it. Someone wanted to spoil my day.
Hey Fred,
If you get into an e-bay bidding war, then you'll have no money to come east to ride the D-Types !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yesterday I went to my local mall where there is a shirt and embroidary shop and got me a good looking #4 Sea Beach Fred cap in my favorite colors of Blue and Orange. Yes they are the Mets colors, but they are also t he colors of the two baseball teams I coached for the better part of 20 years, the Astros and Mets. They are also the colors of New York City if I remember correctly. Well I can't say I
went to sleep in it, but it was nearby where I could see it even in the dark. Am I an animal or what? Right now it sits on top of my head. It looks good man.
Photo?
Sorry if a little off-topic. How does one figure out trip times?
I am looking for the travel time from 34th st A line, to jfk
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Ed Ledner
Trip times can vary by time of day and day of week (weekday/Saturday/Sunday). Call NYCT Travel Information at 1-718-330-1234. It's a 24-hour-a-day number. Provide the day and time of travel and they'll be happy to answer the question. As an alternate, call the Port Authority (which runs JFK Airport) at 1-800-AIR-RIDE.
David
1.5 to less Hours including waiting time if you are not going Off peack hours (late night, I take the trip all the time
BTW the post is on topic.
Cut and paste this URL:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/aline.htm
(Sorry, I don't know how to create an HTML link.)
Anyway, download the timetable of your choice. They work with Adobe Acrobat.
:-) Andrew
Timetables are on the MTA website (www.mta.ny.ny.us). You can also check out Subway Navigator @ subwaynavigator.com, but that isn't official.
The 50th anniversary of the delivery of the second batch of Budd RDC's to the PRSL in May and June 1951 was celebrated Saturday at the Cape May Transportation Center and Cape May City station of the Cape May Seashore Lines Railroad (they're at the same place). I rode train 301 from the northern terminus at the 4-H fairgrounds station, Cape May Court House, into Cape May for the celebration, meeting two SubTalkers who arrived in Cape May before me. A photo of three SubTalkers and a nonSubTalker railfan was posted yesterday as the Rogues gallery. Right-clicking to open in a new window is suggested to allow time for loading.
I took a number of digital photos and am uploading them as time permits. The first batch represents the trip to Cape May.
Trip to Cape May
Another page is up - interior and exterior detail shots of M-407 and M-410.
Budd Cars
Fantastic, bravo!....More Please!
Avid reader
Thanks for the positive feedback. I have a couple more pages to add, one of which should be interesting. Unfortunately, a meeting tonight will keep me otherwise occupied.
Another page is up.
At Cape May
Great shots !
I remember a few years ago there was a whole bunch of RDCs stored at MARC's yard at Brunswick, MD. Are any of them down at Cape May ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I remember a few years ago there was a whole bunch of RDCs stored at MARC's yard at Brunswick, MD. Are any of them down at Cape May ?
Don't know; all my views of stored RDC's have been from passing trains.
I have seen a MBTA Budd RDC In Lincon New hampshire.
The last page of (miscellaneous) pix is up.
Potpourri
TAR-IFFIC!
I understand There are some fine rehabed RDCs running between Dallas and FortWorth, Texas. IIRCC they cost a little over the original price to be brought up to excellant snuff. About Three hundred Thousnad Plus per car. Only a portion had operator cabs.
Anyone have additional information about ressurrected RDCs here or in Canada of Mexico?
avid
P.S. Whats the current status of the SPVs?
"P.S. Whats the current status of the SPVs?"
THEY'RE DEAD !!!!
You can pay respects to them at Metro North's Croton North dead line where they are keeping some FL-9s company. Chances are the 3 LIRR FL-9s are there too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Most of the SPV's are active on ConnDOT as Cab Cars that sometimes visit the Amtrak Empire Serivce or NEC. I saw one in Penn Station not too long ago
The interior of the cars make it look new.
What a great step back in time. I didn't know there were blind end RDCs. That was a historic first for me, thank you very much!
avid
Say, is The Cape May Seashore Line a museum line, or is that a regular service line? Well, what I'm asking is that can I use the line to go to Cape May? I was planning on going to Cape May for a weekend. Plus is the Northernmost terminal anywhere near Atlantic City? Thanx.
The Cape May Seashore Lines runs regular service, 4 round trips daily until Labor Day, then weekends into December. It runs 13.1 miles between the 4-H Fairgrounds station in Cape May Court House near the Cape May County zoo to Cape May City. Trains leave the fairgrounds station at 10 AM, noon, and 2 and 4 PM. Trains leave Cape May City at 11 AM and 1, 3, and 5 PM.
Fairgrounds station
Today.
For the first time. I got on a R-142A on the (6). From 51 St to Brooklyn Bridge. The car # I have it was #7235. I notice the Seats are Blue. The walls are Stone White. The Floors are Black with Red and White Dots. The Cellings are sort of White. And I notice something that when the door closes. The Yellow LED thing above the door flashes when the door closes. And the Map is like instead at the center door. It's at the end of the car by the seat where I was sitting at. And thing are pretty much WIDE Spaces. The Doors are Wider. The Asiles are wider. And the botton part of the seats are a few inches longer then the OLDER Ones.
At Brooklyn Bridge. When the Redbird on the (5) was comming in. I saw 3 Cars with Windows that go down. It was the First 2 Cars and the one in the middle. I got #8539 on the (5) as the last car.Took it from Brooklyn Bridge to Fulton St. That car did not have the Windows that go down. So this lead me to this Question. How many Redbirds are with the Windows that go's down? And here's a EXTRA Question. Are they R-142's running on the (5) yet?
You did not get car 8539. Believe me! That car WAS an R30.
OPPS!! I messed up!! It was #8639 on the (5). MY MISTAKE!!
Can't be #8539 that would be an R30 and it's long since been scrapped. #8739 is more like it.
wayne
The yellow LED is a requirement of the ADA.
I was just at the RR Museum of PA today and I saw that they had two Pioneer III Silverliner cars circa 1958. I am just happy that someone thought to preserve such a milestone in MU and Truck design. They also had a Metroliner in PRR colours. Putting the Metroliners in the context of the 1960's they must have been pretty hot little numbers. Very high tech, modern styling, fast lines and a plothera of outside the box thinking. It's a pity they didn't work.
On my way home from Strassburg I stopped off at the former PRR lo-grade line Trenton Cuttoff extention built in 1904. I took a little walk down the abandonned and beautyfully overdrown RoW (cat poles still intact) to take some pictures at the large iron viaduct over Rt. 322.
lexcie speaking from Phila PA
the metroliner cars are sooooo cooooooolllll
there were like loads of stuffue in them
i really like them heheh
Ahhh, nice.
Though I wouldn't call the Pioneer III truck a milestone in trucvk design, unless you were going for worst truck design of the century. Bulletproof? Yes. Decent ride? Hardly. But IMHO, they'd be great for freight...
Ok - what were the Pioneer I and II cars?
As far as MU design, it's the first all stainless MU, but not the first rectifier MU. Might have been the first *air cooled* rectifier MU, but the Washboards had ignitrons first, and were older. They were carbon/stainless composites and had conventional trucks on them.
The Metroliners might have been the first MUs to use SCRs (the Westinghouse equipped ones had them). As for unreliability, I'm not sure why (technically), but weight and high gearing (translation: overoptimistic top speed) probbably played a part. Bad track ( == vibration) was likely a helping factor.
And that the PRR/PC had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it wasn't good either.
Did the Pioneer III railroad cars have the Budd Pioneer III trucks?
BMTJeff
Yes, but the traction motors had been removed. However the axles still had the gearing.
yup
Ok, I know this is a reaaaly dumb question, but since when has riding between cars been illegal? (yes, it's dangerous, but...)
On the 7, there was a guy having a poop of a day, you could just tell he really did not want to be in a crowded train - thus he went between the cars to get some air. at queens plaza, there's an undercover cop on the platform who asks him to step out, and they proceed to give him a ticket.
Has it always been illegal to ride btw cars? or is this new?
Needless to say, that guy's day wasn't getting any better...
Has it always been illegal to ride btw cars? or is this new?
This is a long standing rule, almost for as long as the subway's been running.
Remember the "cop with the whistle" stickers on the storm doors with the hand extended in "stop" mode? "It is unlawful to ride between the cars" ... bet they're long gone too much like the old "La via del tren subterraneo es muy peligroso" stickers ...
Now that you mention, I think I very vaguely recall them stickers. It's been awhile since i've seen anything that expressly stated 'it is illegal to ride between cars'. (board between cars, yes. but not ride...)
There's a sticker that says "Riding between cars prohibited". Can't get much more vanilla than that.
Phohibited is different than illegal. I mean many bussinesses prohibit things, but they can't arrest you for doing them. If you ride b/t cars you should have your pass lifted and get tossed out the system. Same goes for the Chuchubob manuver.
Thanks for the nomenclature citation. You've been talking with Jersey Mike.
That was Jersey Mike. I forgot to change out my cookie.
I think that's the first time i've ever heard RR terminology aplied to cookies, or anything else having to do with a computer.
No that note, i've got to go switch some loads from the small C yard to the bigger E yard to make way for some new MOW errr... anitvirus... loads...
You have it only half right, and if Jersey Mike gave you this info, he's got it half-right.
If you do something "prohibited" in a business, you can be ejected from the premises. But a business can also inform you that you are "persona non grata" as a result of your conduct. Should you re-enter the business after that, you can be arrested and prosecuted for trespassing.
LOL, do you know anyone that was been banned for life from the NYCS?
"LOL, do you know anyone that was been banned for life from the NYCS?"
No, but I know of people who were arrested for trespassing at stations. Good thing, too, because, in some of those cases, a computer check found outstanding warrants for violent crimes. This resulted in a return trip to state prison.
I believe that turnstile jumping usually results in a "theft of services" charge, which is a misdemeanor. (It's frequently bargained down to trespass, which is a violation.)
Probably that Darius character.
Besides Darius McCollum? As a condition of one of his prior probations he was prohibited for life from entering the subway - that's one of the reasons he was sent to prison after his latest stunt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>>>>But a business can also inform you that you are "persona non grata" as a result of your conduct
I've never heard that statement. I've heard "GET THE F*CK OUT!!!!", but not that other one.
Hey, I was just trying to be polite...this is Subtalk you know. :0)
You can still see these stickers on the museum R-33S. (They were only used on the R32-38 series, though I'm not sure about the mainline 33's)
>>>>"La via del tren subterraneo es muy peligroso" stickers ...
La learno some englisho.
Oh, back in the early 70's it was one long one (would fit across the side panels on the inside along the roofline where there WEREN'T roofline destination signs) ... english one side, espanol the other. Edumication on wheels ... wowsers. :)
The ones I remember were usually found on cab doors.
IIRC those stickers said "Riding between cars is prohibited!"
I remember those bilingual "Subway tracks are dangerous" stickers as well. They were subsequently updated.
No fun ... the HORRIBLE "Espicka Espana" verbalization was histerical to los Brinquenos in my hood. Everyone wondered "?quien es mas macho?" there. Not in any language anyone spoke at "el tiempo" ... "la via del tren subterraneo es muy peligrosa?" Que Lastima?!
But I digress ... twice removed.
I've just never seen or heard of anyone get a ticket for it... I've seen people told by a conductor to move, but that's about it.
Actually, that brings up a funny story. Way back in the 80's, when my brother was going to high school, he'd ride there wtih some friends. One morning, one of them 'had to go' - so we went between the cars.
Right after he went out there, a cop went walking through the train - he grabbed him by the shoulder from behind, reached passed him and opened the next door, pushing the kid who's you-know-what was still exposed, into the next car. The cop didn't notice what he was up to (or give him a ticket...) - just said 'no riding between cars asshole' and kept going.
oi vey.
Well, that is not as bad as peeing on the third rail.
Elias
>>>I've just never seen or heard of anyone get a ticket for it
Oh sure. The police have been handing out summonses for years for this violation (current fine-$75).
And so much for your friends being decent "lookouts". Geez, Stevie Wonder could have given better protection.
Riding between cars has been illegal for a while (I've known that fact practically all my life), though passing between cars still isn't. Though the cop shouldn't have given him a ticket based on that, it should have been only a warning. If the guy were smoking (weed or otherwise), pissing, or vomiting between cars then the ticket is justified. But not simply standing to get some fresh air. If he was standing on the landing of one car but not the other he technically wasn't "between" cars, his entire body would be confined to the dimensions of the one car, and he could argue his way out of the ticket.
What is it anyway, a $2 fine (like jaywalking used to be)?
I think he had one foot on each platform, and we did just go around the sharp curve (it was a main st. bound 7 at QP). it didn't seem smart, but he wasn't smoking, peeing, etc.
Maybe it was quota-filling day?
No idea what the fine was...
If you want to argue that further, I used to ride with non employees and even employees on the ACMU cars on Metro North with no hassles. Is a "vestibule rider" considered riding between cars being he/she is outside the passenger compartment?
I wonder...
I recall once about 4 years ago being on an NJ Transit train to long branch, which was a car or 2 shorter than normal during rush hour. There was no place to stand but in the vestibule, with all of the doors open to boot. That made for an interesting ride...!
That's why I miss those old diesels on the LIRR. I used to love standing on the platform from Hunterspoint Av out to Islip during the summer with a cold brew in my hand (sigh).
On pretty much anything out of Penn after 3:30 you will have vestibule standers either when leaving Penn or after Newark. Many times people transferring at Newark will do this, but sometimes they stay there as far as Edison. In summer try to get a vestibule with a window that opens (Arrow III cab ends or cab car in middle of push-pull train).
Doors open? Not a big deal on anything on the Hoboken division, the Main/Bergen/Boonton/Pascack lines have almost nothing with high platforms, which is why they usually get the equipment that can only handle low doors (Comet I, no trap doors at all). But since all the Metro North equipment has the trapdoors that can only open when the door is open, during rush hour they always roll with doors open. Sometimes (before they put fences up) people would board / detrain on the offside for easier access to their vehicles.
Every storm door in every car used to have a decal saying "Riding between cars is prohibited" or words to that effect. I remember them on the old R-1/9 series cars.
Then they started putting up "safety" stickers urging people not to even move from one car to another while the train is moving. Doing that is NOT illegal on the NYC subway system - but it IS illegal on PATH. I don't know to what extent it is enforced, but theoretically you could get a ticket just for going from one car to the next on a PATH train, unless it is stopped at a station (or at a red signal??) when you do so.
>>> he went between the cars to get some air. <<<
It is not clear from your post, were the storm doors closed on the cars he was between? If so, I can see why he was cited. Before A/C on a hot day, all the storm doors between cars would be propped open, and if there was a crush load, it just naturally extended between cars so there would be one or two people riding in the open between each set of cars. The only exception would be the C/R's station which was clear so he could unhook the safety chain, or in later years, move from one cab to the one in the next car.
Tom
yeap, the doors were closed...
They wre propped open on the 3/9 car of the train though (them cars w/o AC).
The practice is "PROHIBITED" by transit rules of conduct. There may also be some ordinance against it like no spitting, no smoking, no panhandling etc. However, the person might have also received the ticket for something else - like obstructing the passageway or something similar.
Of course when you ride outside of the car, you can defy the law of the land but you can't always defy the laws of gravity.
I don't know about the legallity but I will say this: It is just plain stupid.
Has it always been illegal to ride btw cars? or is this new?
21 NYCRR 1050.9(d) - "No person may ride on the roof, platform between subway cars or on any other area outside any subway car or bus operated by the authority." The footnotes say this section was filed May 24th, 1985 and this particular part was last amended on September 26th, 1994 with an effective date of October 12th, 1994.
Just for info I used to have a 1916 IRT rule book and there was a rule that stated passengers were not permitted to ride on the [enclosed, vestibule] platforms of cars if space were available within the car body itself. Considering rush hours IF was the key word. Thought a little ancient history might interest some.
I just bought the Microsoft Train Simulator at Wal-Mart today, and I
had no problem installing it, but when I went to play it, all I got
was a black screen with mouse cursor/hourglass after clicking "accept"
on the agreement, and nothing else happens. The screen just stays
black with the cursor/hourglass. Is this normal??? Or is it possible
that my copy of MS Train Sim is defective, or my computer doesn't
meet the game's requirements? Has anyone else had this problem? I am
planning to return the game to Wal-Mart tomorrow, but I don't know
if I should exchange it for another copy, or get my money back. Hope
someone can help me with this...
Lotsa luck getting your money back on a computer program at Wal-Mart!!! It takes a LOT of griping to store managers, as they have a no rturn, only exchange policy on computer programming once you've opened it.
Everyone was in a big rush to run out and get this MS Train Simulator the day it came out -- and all I see EVERYWHERE (here, newsgroups etc.) is everyone posting gripes that it won't work.
It simply will NOT work unless you just bought your computer in the last few months. It is a very hardware-intensive program requiring all the latest drivers, etc.
My computer is two years old, so I didn't even give it a thought. Actually, I won't give it a thought until it comes out in its third or fourth version and many of the bugs are worked out. By then I might have a computer that has the up-to-date periphery needed.
I think that "Subway Rider" should complain to Microsoft about the problems he is having with the software. Oftentimes they release new software products and the bugs haven't been worked out yet.
BMTJeff
You can check out: http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/trainsimmessageboardsjoinin.msnw
It's all about MSTS from installations to troubleshooting.
Good Luck!
Paul
Even though I have a fairly new computer I think I'll wait till the bugs are worked out. My computer works fine now and I don't want to chance it until MS Trainsim has undergone the first 6 months to a year of being out.
Beta (new) versions of programs almost always have errors that are detected and fixed in later versions. Best things come to those who wait.
Beta (new) versions of programs almost always have errors that are detected and fixed in later versions. Best things come to those who wait.
Beta does not mean the same as new.
Does with Microsoft ... beta = ship it ... after all, a company that charges out the wazoo for support when their product is the cause of the headaches isn't exactly an incentive to get it right in the first place. :)
Picked up "Train Simulator" 10 days ago at Electronic Boutique. Interim evaluation: My System: Celeron 533, 128 meg RAM, VooDoo3 16 Meg RAM videocard, Ensonique PCI wave soundcard. Did maximum install (eliminates need to use the CD to play the game.)Resolution is set to 800x600 with maximum sound.
Gameplay yields anywhere from 12 to 35 frames per second, depending of course on scenery (city vs country, etc.), sounds are very good on a altec-lansing subwoofer set.
Have tried all available trains to operate with no problems encountered. My favorite by far is the Japanese 2000 series cars, they have a reverser key, motorman's and brake handles just like our SMEE cars. The cars themselves have four doors and standee handles and the lines have high level platform stations set very close to each other, with some of the lines having 4 track right of ways with local and express stops! Some are even on a concrete el!
Hopefully enough people will purchase this game to encourage add-ons such as American MU and rapid transit lines; imagine hearing the growl of a D-type leaving a station, then applying those old brakes with their wonderful sounds.
Only complaint so far: If you really want smooth graphics (increased FPS) you will need at least a pentium 3 processor with perhaps 256 megs of RAM.
LIke my friend told me: They finally made a flight simulator that really interests me. Enjoy!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Atlanta is going to have some of the worst gridlock known to humankind for the next 6 weeks. There was a gas truck crash at the intersection of two of the most congested highways in Altanta. The crash/explosion did so much damage that the explosion blew a hole in an overpass and now the whole bridge has to be replaced. It's going to take 6 weeks to replace it, with crews working around the clock.
The site of the crash couln't have been more perfect. MARTA has 4 stops in the area, and one of the highways affected has MARTA running down the median of it. If this won't get Atlantans out of their cars, nothing will. Read about what MARTA has planned for the occasion.
On Saturday, I was at the 180th Street station taking some pictures of the Redbirds as I waited for the #2 back home.
On the middle track came a redbird consist that had the lead car which was missing three window panes of glass.
The car was in the 8800 series. I didn't write down the subway car number - sorry about that. But I did manage to take a few picutres just as the train came to a stop. After a few minutes, it then went backwards from where it came from. This was at about 3:00-4:00 pm. A few minutes later, an R142 comes up the middle track and stops. My train was arriving, so I'm not sure what they were planning to do with it. I also noticed that a set of R142's are still layed up in the northern end of the Unionport yard.
The windows were the post GOH kind. The top pull-out glass section was intact. It was the larger bottom section that was misisng in three of the windows. Two of them were side by side.
I figured that the windows may have been broken by vandals. I just figured I would contribute that observation.
Can anyone tell me the R# for those chocolate brown subway cars that use to run on the then CC in the late 70's. They had straw seats and the windmill fan. Thanking you in advance
r10.... final answer, Reeg!
Not quite the R10. The R1-9 cars were used on the IND until the early '70s. The late '70s retired these cars from the BMT, the last train running on March 31, 1977 on the J. An R4 is shown on the CC below.
Aw GEEZ ... old 426 ... there's a story that goes with that particular bad boy ... like the destination sign that went up in flames on me on a morning trip up the concourse ... the top roller spring had busted on that one and the curtain laid down on the lamps. Dried out as it was, it eventually started smoking like nitrate film. That one used a half-dead fire extinguisher to put out. That picture had to be taken in the spring of 1971 ...
Surprised to see it signed as a CC, that one belonged to Coney. I know that car *Way* too well ... but it had one NICE brake valve on it, smooth as a baby's butt and built for feathering ... and it was a lead car because a cut key got lost in the floor. It needed the big bone to not be a lead car. :)
Great shot. Right on about them being R1-9, mostly R4 specifically.They were originally Pullman or Coach Green or some similar offshoot of that color...don't think they were vere brown but years of fading paint, dirt, etc.May have looked brown. Wish I could remember how many times I made that stop at Fordham!
Maybe you could remember how many times you blew that stop at Fordham. Combine the downgrade from Kingsbridge with a rookie who didn't drain the water from the M.R., and your next stop is 183 LOL.
I drained my share of MR's when I'd take trains from the yard; but most of the time you'd take a train that was on the stand as we said..I admit blowing Fordham southbound ONCE...on a Sunday, with an R1-9. I was young and wanted to run like big C--Charlie Campbell in Queens who could stop those old trains just great.
Took some chances when I first got promoted...learned what stations I could get away with what at if you know what I mean...put a door of half a car out a few times with those old trains but it only took once to learn. You'd learn to be more serious about that.
Things were easier then. When I got promoted to engineer on a freight road I was 46, discipline had become a lot tighter; the recorders on the engine recorded every thing you did with the controls besides your speed...and age..do your job and no heroism.
Thanks for the thoughts!
Also check out the section of this site that has numbers, photos & other details on where some of these cars are today.
Mr t__:^)
Well, I dont know if my response to KARL B about BMT El #902 (and his post back to me on this site!) did it, or not, but all these "What was it like to ride the subways back in....." response postings are getting me very sentimental. I had to go downstairs and fire up my el system and run the old stuff and then look at my old videos and pics of MY TIME in the 50's and 60's of NY Rapid Transit. SELKIRK - I believe you said you lived next to 204th St 3rd Ave El stop - my father bought me American Flyer trains at HOENIGS train & hardware store - Dad lived right up the top of the hill on Anderson Ave. from the PoloGrounds shuttle. He worked the 3rd Ave el in the 30's as a station agent and later station master
for the IRISH Rapid Transit (he was one of the few German-descent guys whose Irish mother (his DAD was German) had pull with the IRISH IRT bigs at 99th st
el shops & offices on 3rd Ave - & got him a job DURING the depression era on the IRT.
TALKING ABOUT HEADLIGHTS ON NEW CARS - only the Manhattan Div, (as it was called) El Gate, El MUDC
and ex-wood subway Composite Cars had headlights on the roof in a Kirby-Neal mfg. fixure with a probably 100W (ha Ha) bulb in it for "night light" on the el.
I remember on winter nights during the late 1953 - 7PM "end of night running till 6AM resumption of service- standing on my uptown el station platform watching the MUDC's groan and whine up the long 10 block upgrade to my platform just after winter darkness at 4;30-5PM . The station agents (IRISH)
liked me (nice German Boy!) and let me thru the wood turnsties area (via going under the free-passage chain between two gates) to watch (or ride) the trains. I used to run them up coffee and soda from "Mike the Greeks" Coca-Cola candy & soda shop (had a counter w/ 3 stools - a shoe box size store) next to the el stairway. On the platform, you could barely see the headlight in the distance amongst the soft glow of those 1890 gooseneck streetlights and
the myriad of lighted hanging signs up and down the tenement facades along the avenue. The groan-whine would stop just at the south end of the platform
(I stood at the middle in front of the station house area at edge of platform) was reached at what was probably in retrospect, 15 miles an hour (steep upgrade) and I could hear the soft air brake sounds
of straight air applications as the 5 car set glided with a soft rumble - thru to the north end of the platform. The conductor in his between the cars position would open those tiny outside hung sliding doors with a brrrrrr-klump sound on their overhead
tracks and outside lever on the car wall (that pulled the doors open and shut like BMT C-type el cars utilized a form of) - and passengers would get off FIRST. Reason -the doors were 32" wide but the actual opening was 29 1/2"wide (from gate car platform days) and only two very skinny people could pass each other going in or out at the same time. Of course at that time and location (of station) it was ALL homeward bound exiting people - hardly any getting on. Doors would close with a multiple bunch of Brrrrrzzzz-thump(s) -sometimes conductor would
wink or wave hello to me or greet me with some friendly but non-understandable thick Irish Brogue
greeting - a few air compressors with a quiet, soft
high-pitched whine and "lunga-lunga-lunga...." piston sound would come on - and the always
Bumphrrrrrrr -grungggggggg -RRRRRRRrrrrrrrrr........
whine as those ancient GE motors and gears would
rolls those wooden babies out...until the twin roof markers at the rear car were tiny dim spots on the
northern darkness of night. Motoring a MUDC must have been a trip (a motorman let me in his cab in 1955 while running train) and he had to look thru the ORIGINAL glass window (in the enclosed platform carbody) from the former gate-car days - and across the 30 or so inch platform and thru the end bulkhead
window in the steel end wall where the twin gate posts and gate used to be!!! And NO windshield wiper on the outside window--raindrops, dirty glass and
snow and NO signals on any local tracks in Manhattan
(except semaphores at interlockings) and no blocks -
it was all sight work - there was nothing to stop
the motorman from slamming into a stopped train ahead. Back to the station platform ---the Q types would also groan up the hill past my stop and with their former Composite (built by IRT shops for el
use under the composite cars back in 1915 when transfered to el exp-only use) trucks- and being as underpowered as they were later on Myrtle service -
they would growl-whine softly thru my station with
the ker-plunk (clank) kep-plunk over the worn rail joints and loose tie plates. Some of the express rail dated to 1916 as stamped on the rail sides!!
The point I am making is - people were CIVILIZED - train crews were (seemed) friendlier and almost uncaring about "beakies" or troublemakers trying to do them in every time they "sneezed" and I believe they enjoyed their jobs - but not the politicos
who ran the system under the City by that time - and things were SAFE - it was like having a 1:1 scale
train layout in safety of your home. We didnt even have or need Transit Cops then - the crew would kick your butt if you caused trouble and stop the train, throw you off to the next station agent who called
on his ancient Western Electric system phone for a
-what else - burly IRISH city cop to hustle you away!! I rode trains with cameras and in the early 60's onward climbed to tenement rooftops in the
Bronx along all the els the get overhead shots - no fear or worry (or was I stupid!?) - but you guys and I could not do that without concern in the 70's and 80's. Society changed from the tranquil and simple, civilized and relatively safe 40's thru mid 60's
to the rebellious, troubled, drug and racially charged late 60's onward (remember Fort Apache et al) and corruption, mistrust, paranoism and a big-brother "watch out for yourself" --"be careful
in the subways - keep your eyes open and guard up"
very unsettling societal atmosphere. People born after 1970 in NYC cant comprehend what (how much fun with no fear) railfanning was prior to that -we didnt know social fear becaused we never experienced it! Im sure some of the older guys (older than me even) can relate to this - Paul Matus - my old friend from the 60's probably can concur - and probably Karl B who left the city in'57 with no bad memories Im sure. In conclusion - that is why I built my O scale EL system that I posted a new site about in end of May - so I can GO BACK to the times and equipment AND CITY I REMEMBER FONDLY THAT MADE ME THE DIE-HARD historian, railfan and modeller today. Do you think the Transit Museum could have been started TODAY with the present transit powers that be? The background people whom I know well
who pulled the strings back in the 60's and 70' - and worked for NYCTA - pulled that deal thru all kinds of covert, agonizing effort and work - and had people in management who rose up from the controller handles, who pulled the top level strings. Bigedirtman remembers - he was there!
Thanks for the fond memories guys - I rekindle mine by enjoying your later-day reminisces on this site.
Thats' what makes us what and who we are in our
unique "hobby" - keep it coming on - remember that in 30 years you will be prattling on about R-32's up up thru the presnt-day new stuff--and just might remember back to your youth (these days NOW) about us grey-heads on this talk-site doing the same thing about OUR nostalgia times - but we will be gone then
or close to it - SO LIVE & ENJOY & EXPERIENCE &
SAVOR every day of your hobby "NOW TIMES" so you will inspire the younger fans of your TOMORROWS!!
Joe at NYC MODEL TRANSIT SYSTEM (au revoir!!)
SO LIVE & ENJOY & EXPERIENCE & SAVOR every day of your hobby "NOW TIMES" so you will inspire the younger fans of your TOMORROWS!!
I wanted to repeat this line, Joe, for the young fans. The '50s looked plain as mud to me back when I lived it, but I drank up everything I could see in memory, pen and photograph. I knew many of the then-older generation who shared their knowledge and "carried the torch."
Now it's the young guys' turn. These are the Good Old Days.
Do you think the Transit Museum could have been started TODAY with the present transit powers that be? The background people whom I know well who pulled the strings back in the 60's and 70' - and worked for NYCTA - pulled that deal thru all kinds of covert, agonizing effort and work - and had people in management who rose up from the controller handles, who pulled the top level strings.
I have never met Don Harold, but I am *sure* there isn't another like him within the ranks of the MTA. He's one primary reason why we have a Transit Museum to begin with.
You should ahve been with us when we walked the Polo Grounds shuttle remains about 2 years gao.
--Mark
Yo ... ayup, I lived DIRECTLY across the street (Webster) from Honark's Pigway and on the south side of our house was the across the street parking for Honark's Pigway ... best part of living there was beating the fare - climb out on the roof and onto the platform. Only problem is it was the NORTHBOUND side to Gunhill ... but the price was right for a detour. Heh.
And yeah, though I be an egg by your own dipstick there, I did get to enjoy the LoV's and the Q's on Myrtle to Bridge/Jay before it was too late and I miss them all dearly ... the city? Feh ... it ain't the same with slowpoke toasters on wheels. :)
Incandescent uber alles. Heh.
Brother, you've just made me feel like a kid again. Thanks a lot!
E_DOG
I really enjoyed reading your reminiscing, Joe.
I never had the chance to ride an IRT gate car, but I got the distinct impression that the exit area (end platform gate) was much narrower on the IRT models than it was on the BMT BU's. Am I right?
Story in Monday's paper
And what does this have to do with the issue at hand: closing part-time booths?
The "scary situation" cited had to do with one of those part-time booths. How would removing the booth entirely have changed anything? If anything, if the TA installs security cameras and/or emergency buttons in the process of eliminating part-time booths, the scary situation might have been less scary. And many stations don't have booths at platform level at all -- not to mention streets and subway cars, most of which have no protection at all. (I was mildly nervous when I found myself in an otherwise empty R-44 car stopped between stations for a few minutes with no announcements. Should something have gone wrong, I would have had no way of contacting another human being except by pulling the cord. I would have been quite a bit more worried if I had been sharing that car with a group of unsavoury characters. And, unlike at an unattended station entrance, I would have had no escape path, nobody would happen to walk by a few minutes later, etc.)
Weak arguments.
In Mr. Andrews situation, luck would be just as necessary. By the time the agent would call 911 and the cops would arrive, he would already have been a victim. Might as well call 911 manually to report the crime. If one presents the argument that the agent would have called the cops upon seeing the hoodlums before they made anyone a victim, a person at the other end of the security camera could do the same thing, and with tape to prove it instead of somebody's recollection.
In Mr. Dorffman's case, the safety in numbers is irrelevant with just one other person, one who is behind bulletproof glass.
As for the union, they're not looking out for the riders, and anyone who thinks they are needs to have his head checked. There is nothing wrong with the union looking out for it's members, and if there's a no-layoff clause in the contract, there isn't much to worry about, except for overzealous discipline designed merely to get rid of employees to avoid a no-layoff clause.
There's another pro-token-booth-clerk story in Thursday's Daily News.
>>> There's another pro-token-booth-clerk story in Thursday's Daily News. <<<
The wording in these stories is so similar, I get the feeling that they are less news and more orchestrated plants by the TWU. (Which is exactly what the union should be doing). I'm surprised that the TA does not plant stories about the cost savings which will put off a fare hike, and how safe other more automated systems are. Maybe the previous TWU leadership lulled them into complacency.
Tom
Railpace online on Saturday reported on LIRR trackwork.
Guess I can look forward to riding the "silver snail" next time I'm on the main line. I like the way wooden ties sound, it's too bad they are becoming history. Concrete sounds a little noisier.
ONE "MO" THING guys!! - I noted some in-accurate
postings under "ANY R-12 CARS SAVED...?" so for your
historical and accurate info, here goes:
50 IRT Cars were built for the 39-40 Worlds Fair" as
all motor cars with ONE cab at ONE end only - # 2 end was blind but cars could and did run singularly
in trains and with cab end facing outward when used at front or rear of train (obviously!)
Though electrically compatable with standard body Steinways built around 1915-16 AND Low-V Mainline
standard body cars - they did not - would not operate properly unless with their own (Steinway)
types - REASON: The 1939 and earlier Steinway
cars WERE GEARED MUCH LOWER on the axles for the Flushing Line steep hills. They never operated on that line with trailers either. During acceleration the higher (faster) geared Low-V Mainliner cars would "drag", if you will, the slower geared and
moving wheels of the Steinways. (I had this happen on one of my O-Scale el cars when I powered it
accidentally with a 29:1 gear-ratio truck when all my rolling stock uses higher (faster) 20:1 gear ratio truck mounted motors & gears underfloor.It was
NOT a happy marriage and I soon rectified the situation. The 29;1 geared truck went under one of my BMT Box-cab work- motor locomotives to pull
trailing work cars and such - what that gearing is designed for!)
STEINWAY cars (both classes) has a RED LINE under the car number(s) on the car door-pocket windows to
let un-initiated new yard crews know not to couple them in trains (ie;standard body Low-v's) out of their class.
These 1939 cars still had updated versions of the old 1915 Low-V technology AND DID NOT-COULD NOT RUN WITH R-12 SMEE TYPES
R-12 types (along with their wider and longer R-10
cars of the IND) WERE THE FIRST SMEE types with an
entirely different propulsion, control and air brake
upgraded system w/ dynamic brakes (pre-war cars did NOT have the dynamic feature on the IRT system)
A reference to R-12's running at head or rear of 3rd Ave. el (Bronx line) trains with Low-V's and a low-V trailer could not be done (except on MY Model El system {Ha ha} - as I can do anything there!) as
someone posted on this talksite - couplers and
electrical systems would not be compatible for
trainline operation.......
FINALLY - as I said earlier - Low-V and Steinway
Class 1915 to 1939 WF Low-V types could on a technical level, operate together but was a NO NO due to the gearing - but LOW V-Trailers (with no gears/motors) ould operate with Steinway type
cars and THUS -you had a Low-V trailer ALWAYS in the middle of a 3rd Ave. El Bronx consist regardless of what body style of Steinway types operated as two cars on each end of the center trailer - the trailer air and control conduits and p-wire lines matched up.
The ONLY Low-V cars in a full train that operated on the 3rd Ave. el were the fan-trip MUSEUM SET Lov-V's on occasional fan trip runs before the el was
abandoned (hey, you younger guys dont remember the
low-roof (abortions really) wood Q-type el fan trips
on the 3rd Ave. el in the early 1970"s, do you??!!)
The Q's hadnt been on that line since December 1956 when they shared service with the last of the IRT
el MUDC's!
Some more history: The 1939 WF class Steinways rulled on the 42nd St. Shuttle replacing the Gibbs and Deck Hi-V's in the early 50's with other WF's
going with their displaced standard body Steinway
brothers to mainline IRT routes (Can you imagine if they were called "Wurlitzer" cars if Steinway Piano
bigs were not the pianomaker connected with Belmont who built the tunnels for Queens transit use!!) UGH!
Lastly - the 3rd Ave. el had MOST of the IRT rolling stock seeing service on its historied route..all classes of gate motor and trail cars, ex-subway composites in Express-only service - Q type cars in exp.only Manhattan & Bronx service replacing the
Composites (and remaining gate cars on the el) in
1949-50 - MUDC converted gate cars - l939 and standard body Steinway steels - and lastly R-12 cars
in 4 (not 5) car train sets with DYNAMIC BRAKES
disconnected as the old el could not take the stresses of fast, hard dynamic braking - meaning they were downgraded to straight air braking---- and lastly, regular mainline Low-V MUSEUM car runs.
Work trains on the el used strictly el and later
pre-war subway stock. Note: Steel Hi-V cars NEVER used the 3rd ave el.Even after 1956 as opposed to using steel Steinways-- as the Hi-v's were on their way out and the last holdout of them was the Broadway Locals (here we go again with B'way local name controversy!) and Pelham locals shortly until the new R-17's (1955) and R-21's (1956 blew them all off to Broadway IRT service and work-service-only thru 1960-1962 approximately.
Just to clarify my own little bit here (in case I was part of the confusatorium) the R12's *replaced* the LoV's somewhere in the late 60's on the 3rd Avenue El, they never mingled. They seemed to set them up with the WF cars on the ends, dead trailer in the middle and loV's in the 2 and 4 spot ... there's a picture below from Joe Testagrossa's collection on the southbound platform above Honark's Pigway down below.
Did you see the lovely restored-copper sheath LoV they ran for the fan trip and last run? GOLD colored LoV's ... very strange after them getting to look like R1/9's after all those years ... but here's the typical consist - the roofline says it all ...
Nice photo. Usually if they could all the motor cars were the World"s Fair with a Low V trailer in the middle. I have seen standard body motors in any position...even on the point sometimes..guess it depended on car availability. The motor cars were specifically Steinways which were Low'v's but had smaller motors, hence lighter, and weren't called Low-V's by the men even if they looked the same. Once in a blue moon a real, 400 HP Low V did show up in a 3rd ave train but I never was one. Steinway spotting feature? A red line under the number.
The R12 being a SMEE of course couldn't MU with the old cars.
Copper/Gold colored Low-V's. Please..who came up with that idea? Why make a car look like something it never was. When the Composites [pre-steel subway cars] appeared at the IRT's opening they had copper siding over the wood siding [I won't say they all did..don't know]but no steel cars were painted such a color. Thankfully.
That photo came from here, Joe Testagrose's and Dave Pirrman's very best ... there's a number of third avenue el shots on nycsubway.org, I picked that one because I lived at 204th and it showed the usual 5 car mongrel consist that we all knew and loved. :)
And yeah, I saw the "coppertop" blow by the house on the fantrip and then come back up ... I know someone took photos of it for the papers in the city coming around the turn out of 210th on its way back to Gunhill ... then they closed the line once it ended the run. WEIRD looking thing. ONE CAR all in copper except the roof. Slow ride, but a nice bucolic alternative to the Jerome or D train ...
When the put together trains of World's Fair Low-V Steinway cars did they couple them together with the #2 ends facing each other and the #1 ends facing each other?
BMTJeff
Since the motorman controls were at one end of the car and the conductor controls at the other, and a low V trailer was in the middle and that's where the conductor would be, the World's Fair cars would all face outward with the m/m cab facing north at the north end and south at the south end. Off hand I don't know which was the #1 end or #2 end; the motor truck and control [group switches, resistors etc] end should be and the air end #1.
In any event you'd have #1 and #2 ends coupled together on each pair, with a pair at each end and a trailer, standard body, in the middle. If all motors were World's Fair; sometimes you'd have a standard body Steinway..or a few, mixed in.
Anyone recognize any eBay user names here?
gravesend (52) $61.01 Jun-09-01 18:40:48 PDT
nhaven69@aol.com (310) $60.01 Jun-10-01 19:49:59 PDT
nhaven69@aol.com (310) $50.01 Jun-10-01 19:49:49 PDT
nhaven69@aol.com (310) $45.01 Jun-10-01 19:49:38 PDT
jmps51 (221) $36.60 Jun-10-01 17:16:42 PDT
bon-bon44 (84) $30.00 Jun-10-01 15:33:48 PDT
bon-bon44 (84) $25.00 Jun-10-01 15:33:25 PDT
bon-bon44 (84) $20.00 Jun-10-01 15:32:55 PDT
jmps51 (221) $16.60 Jun-05-01 03:12:34 PDT
nhaven69@aolcom sniped three times in the last 30 seconds but was still beaten by gravesend's technique of placing a solidly high proxy bid.
OK. racing fans. The tortoise sometimes still beats the hare.
Anyone know how to get in touch with Mr. Fausser? Since the book is self published -and- out of print maybe he'd be willing to let me scan it and put it up online (I have a copy.)
-Dave
The NY post has an article about subway author and railfan Stan Fischler's quest to save a number of the Redbirds from a watery grave.
http://www.nypost.com/commentary/32256.htm
I agree with Stan. I don't need that R142 frou-frou.
R-12s?
Look at this error:
- the 40-year-old R-12s are slated to be replaced by shiny new cars -
Also, I still wish R-22's would be preserved somewhere. I saw two of them at 207th St that are in good condition" 37366 and 37371. They are yellow work motors, but have not been mutilated like others (windows tinned or barred over, doors bolted shut or together (into a single sliding door like the low-V's), whole seat banks removed and the welded rail train--forget it!) I could hear that one of them even still has the old style compressor. When I saw one in the shop near the car desk, I was wondering if they were getting ready to retire them. Someone should grab these two.
And that's that.
R12?
-Hank
That's not a Brooklyn trolley in San Francisco, either. It's a SEPTA PCC, painted in Brooklyn colors. It never ran in Brooklyn.
If they want a Brooklyn trolley, they can find one at your local-friendly-trolley-museum (Shoreline, Seashore, etc.). Or at Bob Diamond's operation in Red Hook. But not San Francisco!
You're correct that there is still a genuine Brooklyn Trolley car that still runs in Brooklyn courtesy of Bob Diamond. I believe that it is a PCC type trolley.
BMTJeff
[Or at Bob Diamond's operation in Red Hook. But not San Francisco!]
Todd, sorry to correct you, but Bob Diamond does NOT own any authentic Brooklyn PCCs. All of his are ex-Boston or ex-Buffalo.
The only surviving ORIGINAL Brooklyn PCC is the one up at Branford Electric Railway (aka Shoreline).
BMTman
Thanks for that update, Doug. At Seashore, we have #4547, a 1906 Jewett Car Company semi-convertable, obtained in 1956 (The article didn't mention PCCs, just "trolley.")
Don't forget PCC #1000 survives too.
BHRA also leases a little Norwegian car.
Right you are Evan, 1000 is the only Clark ever made, & 1001 at Shoreline is a St. Louis that was the first PCC delivered to an operator. Had the pleasure of driving her, backwards, a couple of times. It will be a said day when all the revenue operators retire them.
Mr t__:^)
It will be a said day when all the revenue operators retire them.
I don't think you have to worry about that anytime soon; Philadelphia and San Francisco seem happy with their "historic" lines :).
Philadelphia doesn't have a historic line like San Fran, unless you count seasonal things like the Holiday Trolley which doesn't run year round like the F line.
-Robert King
Yes, I was referring to the holiday trolley... it may only run seasonally, but those cars are safe :).
I was 99% sure that the Welcome Line thing had an end put to it a few years ago. Do you know what, if anything, is happening (or going to happen) with the air PCC that SEPTA has in one of their carhouses?
Incidentally, it looks like we've got a return of the summertime Tour Tram service in Toronto, at least for this year, using the PCCs. We'll have to wait and see whether Toronto Tours finds it worthwhile to continue having tours on those streetcars, but for now it's keeping the PCCs busy and earning quite a bit of money which fortunately reduces the likelyhood of them being deemed to expensive to keep around and given away to the museum substantially so 4500 and 4549 are also 'safe', so to speak for now as well.
The arrangements between the TTC and Toronto Tours only call for one PCC to be giving tours on any given day so that fan trips and special events can make use of the other at the same time.
-Robert King
AFAIK, the SEPTA PCCs ran for the holidays last year. I don't know anything about the remaining cars, though. The TTC tour tram sounds great; I hope it's a success!
But SEPTA is planning to rebuild about 16 PCC's (under pressure from The City, of course) for their Girard Avenue Light Rail Line (formerly The Route 15). They will have A/C, chopper controls in place of either The GE controller or The Westinghouse carousel, and they are installing seats salvaged from The Volvo articulateds. So it may be a high-tech PCC, but it will be a PCC nevertheless.
"The Volvo articulateds. So it may be a high-tech PCC, but it will be a PCC nevertheless."
What was wrong with the old PCC seats ?
Bill "Newkirk"
"they are installing seats salvaged from The Volvo articulateds"
What was wrong with the PCC seats ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Made mistake on cut and paste on the first post.
My best guess is that they may be installing seats that stand up to vandalism better than the original PCC seats. That's the best reason that I can think of.
-Robert King
Newark may cut their's soon, but Kenosha just started up & Boston just re-built their's.
Mr t__:^)
There is other crap in the article.
It perpetuates the MYTH that underwater asbestos is a problem of any sort and that dumping subway cars creates more of a hazard than a benefit.
In addition to that, check out this sentence:
"Fortunately, anyone with common sense is a natural ally"
I know typos are no big deal, but they missed the NO between WITH and COMMON.
Maybe I should write a letter. But being published in the News or Times is an honor. Being published in the Post is as as honorable being on a sex offender list. This article does nothing to dispel that.
Have you read any science, one way or the other, on submerged asbestos?
How can it be a problem? Easy. Sea water is corrosive. Asbestos gets into sea water where it can wash up on shore, dry out, and fibers become airborne. You would be amazed at the amount of crap which washes up on the shore as is.
And has anyone ever observed whether asbestos fibers have an effect on sealife? What happens if a fish ingests the fibers? Will they lodge in gills the way they lodge in lungs? Whether or not you're into Ichthyological Liberation, this is our food chain you're talking about.
It seems sinking the 'birds is based on the something familiar, the City wants to dump stuff to save money. If the City Council will pass a resolution making nice reefs off Coney Island out of the Redbirds, I might reexamine their motives.
Asbestos occurs naturally in some forms of coral. It's also in the hills of Staten Island. The rock scar on the north side of the Staten Island Expressway near Clove Rd is all asbestos-containing rock.
Asbestos is harmless when wet, and will biodegrade with time. It is only dangerous when it gets down to individual fibers, which can become airborne. There is PLENTY of science to prove this.
Likely, while the subway car metal decomposes around it, it will become trapped in the surrounding vegetation, never to be seen again.
-Hank
I noticed some errors in the story. One key error was referring to the "Redbirds" as R-12s instead of their proper designations.
BMTJeff
Well if he's looking to save the R12s, he's over fifteen years too late. The R12s were retired in the mid-1980s and replaced by the R62s/62As. I think Mr. Kuntzman (the author of the article itself) may have some sort of bias toward the Redbirds, just as much as his buddy, Mr. Fischler does. But I think the MTA should operate some Nostalgia Specials using Redbirds. The MTA should keep ten World's Fair R36s to run on the Flushing line (and bring back the old World's Fair paint scheme!). They should also keep ten Mainline R33s for use on the other IRT lines. I would say keep ten R30s for service on the IND/BMT lines, but there's probably not that many left.
Below is from the drpa.org web site. TMNY's Delaware Bridge cars #401 and 402 are expected to be part of the car parade.
Sunday, July 1. The entire bridge will be closed to vehicular traffic all morning beginning 5:30 a.m. The 75th Birthday Celebration will begin with sunrise coffee and a once in a lifetime opportunity to stroll across the span between Camden, NJ and Philadelphia, PA.
Come dressed in 20's period costume, dance the Charleston and listen to music of the era. A classic car parade will highlight the changes in transportation over the years since the bridge opening, July 1, 1926. See the four restored 'Winged Victory' Angels that once adorned the bridge plazas on display for the first time since1949. The Delaware River Port Authority, which owns and operates the bridge, will host a 10 a.m. rededication ceremony, followed by a continuation of the bridge stroll. Special transportation and parking will be provided to the bridge plazas on both sides of the river. Check out www.drpa.org or local newspapers for specific information closer to the date.
Is anyone reading this planning on attending? I can't be there, but I would love to get copies of pictures or video anyone takes of Delaware Bridge cars 401 and 402 in action. These are 'Deco Cars' built in 1936 by J. G. Brill. PATCO is restoring these cars in order to use them on July 1.
Is anyone aware of any other historic cars PATCO might operate?
Evan, I'm a little confused. I know PATCO kept 2 of the Bridge cars for work service, are they restoring them and the TMNY cars, or what.
Can you elucidate?
Yes they are. I was in Lindenwold Saturday on my way to A.C. and so far, they have sprayed the cars silver (did not see the blue paint on them yet). I think they may have to improvise on the underfloor equipment in order for the cars to run. But it would be cool to ride the bridge cars over the BFB.
Nos. 401 and 402 were in work service before they were retired, so I don't know if the two work cars you mention are the same ones.
I really know very little about PATCO, so I don't know what other historic cars PATCO may have on the property other than 401 and 402. In buddtrainzrule's response, I don't know how many cars he saw that were painted.
Well, they only have two cars left on the property (403 was scrapped a long time ago), so those were the only two cars that were painted. Now if SEPTA wants to donate their remaing Bridge car, then that would be great.
What was the exact date of the opening of the Benjamin Franklin bridge in 1926 which I believe was called the Philadelphia-Camden bridge at the time.
BMTJeff
The Delaware River Bridge opened July 1, 1926.
DRPA party info
Hi all, Just found this board and love it. Been to NYC once, rode the subway all day and loved it.
Question: Would some of you recommend a book to me about the NYC subway, how the trains and signals work, facts like why the battery park station is shaped so strange, the systems history, and stories about crashes and the like? I've read one about the building of the subway but is was more about politics and ecomonics (boring)
Thanks in advance.
Just keep perusing this site. It has something for every subway lover.
Hi all, Just found this board and love it. Been to NYC once, rode the subway all day and loved it.
Question: Would some of you recommend a book to me about the NYC subway, how the trains and signals work, facts like why the battery park station is shaped so strange, the systems history, and stories about crashes and the like? I've read one about the building of the subway but is was more about politics and ecomonics (boring)
The Subway by Stan Fischler is probably the best "anecdotal" book about the subway system. You can find more information about it and other subway books on this site.
Forgot to add this in my previous post. If you can get a copy, which might be hard because it's out of print, Subway Lives by Jim Dwyer is another excellent choice. It (loosely) chronicles 24 hours in the subway during May 1989. I know that's quite a ways back, but the book's much more timely than one might imagine.
At your current level of interest, you would probably get the most enjoyment from "The Subway" by Stan Fischler with the important caveat that a significant part of his historical information is inaccurate and certain accounts, such as his description of the Malbone Street Wreck are sensational and describe things that never happened.
But it is enjoyable in story and picture and a good starting point.
If you don't mind curling up with your computer instead of a book, there is a lot right on this site, and on other sites. For "how do signals, etc., work, try www.thejoekorner.com for some interesting discussions.
As you get more familiar with what's available, you can probably ask more detailed questions which should elicit more detailed responses.
I would recommend my own book, "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" (now available on amazon.com and barnesnoble.com) but it is more of a social history of the Els than anything else. Why don't you try Stan Fischler's book "Subway" or that new work "Tunneling to the Future" which is about the Dual Contracts (both of which are available on the aforementioned websites)?
Eric D. Smith
that new work "Tunneling to the Future" which is about the Dual Contracts
I think this is the book the original poster found boring :)
--Mark
If you want to know about all of the rail systems around the NY metro area, get a copy of Stan Fischler's "Next Stop Grand Central". Highly recommended.
Or if you really want to learn, for $79.95 + tax, you can follow me around for a day - Hard hat not included.
Just kidding - of course..............
If I could get to walk on the catwalks of the Brooklyn Broadway El I'd take advantage of that offer myself.
E_DOG
Or if you really want to learn, for $79.95 + tax, you can follow me around for a day - Hard hat not included.
You know, if you were looking for another way to support the March of Dimes, you may have hit on something here.
--Mark
I just picked up UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK by Brian Cudahy. I've only been glancing through it so far,but it does seem to get into a lot of the political side, but gives a fair shake to the nuts and bolts An entire chapter is devoted to The Malbone Street Wreck.
Go to BN.com (Barnes and Noble) and key New York Subway in the subject field. You'll pull up about 20 or so.
You are going to find a whole host of books about every facet of the City's transit system.
- NY Transit Memories, by Harold A. Smith is inexpensive & has a lot of photos covering the whole spectrum (trolley, el, trackless trolley to subway).
- They Moved The Millions, by Ed Davis, Sr. is another inexpensive book. The photos could be clearer, but the detail on various subway cars types from the wooden els to recent Rs is outstanding.
- Gotham Turnstiles, by John Henderson is in color. Quite a few pages are devoted to SI & NJ subways, but enough of NYC to it worth having in your collection.
- Interborough Fleet, by Joe Cunningham. The IRT was first & this book give you a lot of detail. There are also nice books on the history of the BMT & IND ... you'll need all three to have a complete collection.
- Other posters have commented about this site ... right on! Spend some time & you learn more then you want to know about "R" numbers, what they mean; abandon stations; what old cars are saved where; history of each line & lots of detail about every station AND other city's around the world ... better take a week or two off and get busy :-)
Mr t
Here's the site's Bibliography.
--Mark
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49558-2001Jun11.html for the Washington Post article. Last I heard, he is still alive.
The suspect was last seen wearing a blue and white New Jersey Devils jacket, brown shorts, and blue and white sneakers.
Maybe he was distraught about the loss to the Avalanche!
I thought about that for a moment!
I expect they are going to turn the neighborhood upside down and shake it - and see what falls out of the pockets.
Stupid move on the part of the suspect. If he had no record, he probably would have been cited; of course if the officer had found the gun there would have been a different ending to the story. Now they are going to have to hunt him down.
Ron, the article seems to imply that the officer was shot with his own gun.
That's certainly possible. Maybe he grabbed it because he didn't want the officer to find something else he had on him...who knows.
The officer's gun and 2 strips of ammunition are missing according to today's article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53773-2001Jun11.html.
Sorry I haven't put in the link tags. Things are somewhat busy here.
What I would like to know is if the suspect used the officer's gun, which seems to be the case, how did he get a hold of it?
It's possible to grab it out of the holster. Or maybe this guy wasn't alone, and his buddies helped. I don't know how accurate newspaper accounts are...
The story that's on the wires says he was shot first, and then the gun was taken. Likely the station manager is a material witness.
-Hank
Died this morning. And that's why they arrest/search people for minor offenses.
-Hank
The perpetrator made a huge mistake. They are going to hunt him down like a dog.
If the crime had occurred in one of the Metro stations located in Maryland or especially Virginia, the perp might well find himself facing the Hot Squat or the Big Needle. But since it happened in the District, the worst he'll probably get is 15 years pumping iron and "maytagging" new fish at Lorton until he's paroled.
Criminals may be stupid, but this one sure picked the right location.
Yeah, well, that's something DC voters may want to fix.
I can remember some years back, when I was in California, someone shot a Long Beach officer. The whole department went on the manhunt; they found the shooter holed up in a building and brought dogs in. A coworker of mine was friendly with police brass, and was told, informally, that the guy in the building was, shall we say, not designated for survival.
The remark turned out to be accurate (though I am not myself condoning "street justice").
There is something else that clown did not think about - the other clowns that he will be living with for that long stretch. He will be the new fish getting maytagged, or forced to "toss someone's salad" or worse. He might be all pumped up and "cock diesel", but when a group of knuckleheads make you the object of their desires, all the bodybuilding in the world will protect you for only so long. Then there are those who just might try this for fun - wait until he is walking down the tier by himself and throw hot grease on him. A can full of that stuff usually has a temperature of about 450 degrees, and water boils at 212 degrees. I saw a guy who got burned that way. Not very good. He should be afraid, very afraid.
There is something else that clown did not think about - the other clowns that he will be living with for that long stretch. He will be the new fish getting maytagged, or forced to "toss someone's salad" or worse. He might be all pumped up and "cock diesel", but when a group of knuckleheads make you the object of their desires, all the bodybuilding in the world will protect you for only so long. Then there are those who just might try this for fun - wait until he is walking down the tier by himself and throw hot grease on him. A can full of that stuff usually has a temperature of about 450 degrees, and water boils at 212 degrees. I saw a guy who got burned that way. Not very good. He should be afraid, very afraid.
You may be right. Back when I worked in the criminal courts in the early 1990's, I often heard - from defendants, court officers and correctional officers alike - that the inmates who have the most difficult times behind bars often are the biggest, most buffed-up ones. A lot of inmates like that go into prison thinking they're the meanest, toughest [deleteds] on the face of the Earth ... only to find, invariably, that there's a meaner, tougher [deleted] inside who's eager for a challenge.
Of course, we can't assume the perp hasn't been there before.
Robert "Mudman" Simon was among the worst- a biker tough who murdered a cop while committing a robbery. He had a long history of assaulting prisoners and correctional officers. He beat people up on a regular basis and enjoyed it. He was racially prejudiced.
Finally, on death row, he assaulted a black inmate who flipped him to the ground and stomped him to death. The NJ prosecutor said, afterward, "I'm not going to lose any sleep over it."
I could see the prison's special response team While Simon was getting stomped: "Hey Joe, did you see my helmet and shield? I thought I left it here someplace." "Nah, must be back in your locker." "OK, let me go back and get it." "Plenty of time, don't hurry."
I would not be surprised if that did indeed happen to a guy like "Mudman". That is another thing that the clowns do not consider - when they need help, all of the guys they used to intess ate now say " It's my turn"!
I would not be surprised if that did indeed happen to a guy like "Mudman". That is another thing that the clowns do not consider - when they need help, all of the guys they used to intimidate now say " It's my turn"!
>>> The whole department went on the manhunt; they found the shooter holed up in a building and brought dogs in <<<
Unfortunately, with the Long Beach Police Department, there was no guarantee that they had the right person, and of course with the street justice they used there would never be a trial to determine if they found the right person. That department had more than its fair share of suspicious suicides in their jail. Until very recently DWB in Long Beach could be a capital offense.
Tom
Agreed. LBPD was dirtier than most. Of course, look what happened when East Orange officer Joyce Carnegie was murdered.
The worst I have ever heard of was in Signal Hill in the 1980's. (adjoining Long Beach). White and black officers there refused to back each other on calls, and once, it was alleged, actually shot at each other while on patrol. There was talk of the state suspending the authority of SignalHill PD and asking the Sheriff's Dept. to take over patrolling Signal Hill.
>>> The worst I have ever heard of was in Signal Hill in the 1980's. (adjoining Long Beach). <<<
I agree that Signal Hill was worse than Long Beach, but that's like comparing Deputy Sheriff Cecil Price of Neshoba County (Philadelphia), Mississippi to Birmingham's Bull Conner. Fortunately Signal Hill is a small city. I had black friends in the 80's who not only would not drive through Signal Hill, but also insisted that I not drive through the city while they were in the car.
Tom
"I had black friends in the 80's who not only would not drive through Signal Hill, but also insisted that I not drive through the city while they were in the car."
The ultimate in lawlessness occurs when you're more afraid of the police than of the criminals.
The gun was found in Philly, according to the news report last night.
The officer was not shot with his own gun. Another gun was used, and the thief stole the officer's 9 mm gun after he shot him.
Anybody have any other details?
TransitChuckG
Now that idiot wishes that he passed up what looked at the time like "easy pickings". He can expect to get grilled worse than a cheese sandwich, and then serve time for the gun at the least. A word to the wise - BCF - better cop out fast.
According to Hank Eisenstein earlier in the thread, the officer died.
If so, the offense had better have happened in the District, from the perp's POV, as MD an VA both have the death penalty in First Degree murder, while DC does not. Either way, whoever gets their legal hands on him first gets to play. Everybody takes cop-killing very seriously.
From what you say, he had better hope that is the case. He still gets to be housed with some real sicko types, and one wrong word could lead to his painful and early death. Jail is no place to expect to live long. Some do, but once they get released, they cannot function on the outside and desperately try to get back in.
You better believe it. The manhunt for the perp who shot the Maryland State Trooper last year involved every department on the East Coast and west to Ohio and Indiana. The obvious moral is: if you kill somebody, don't kill a cop. Ever.
Here is the official WMATA press release. Not much different than last year:
Countdown begins to customers' revolutionary travel for July 4th activities
For the third year in a row, Metro will revolutionize its customers' travel patterns to get them to July 4th celebrations on the National Mall and around the region. To safely and conveniently take customers in and out of the city on July 4th, train travel patterns will change.
To help ensure that riders board the correct train, Metro will make frequent station announcements throughout the Metrorail system, and MIPs (Metro Information Persons) will be positioned throughout the system to assist customers. In addition, brochures, titled Metro's 4th of July revolutionary service, will be available to customers at take-one racks near station managers' kiosks or booths at rail stations.
Tips customers should keep in mind include the following:
Buy multiple farecards faster and easier by using a Passes/Farecards machine at Metrorail stations.
Off-peak fares are in effect all day on July 4th.
Buy round trip fare when first entering the system.
Keep farecards clean and dry so they will work on the return trip home.
Use the same station to enter and exit the system when going to and leaving from Independence Day activities. Exception: use other stations near the Mall, avoiding the crowds at the Smithsonian station after the fireworks.
Listen to station and train announcements.
Check the final destination displayed on the side of the train to be sure you're boarding the right train.
Park free at Metrorail owned and operated lots on July 4th.
Because of the anticipated crowds expected to use the system on the Fourth, avoid taking bicycles in the Metrorail system.
Take special care of children, deciding beforehand with children what they should do if they become separated from parents or other adults.
Use elevators when traveling with infants in strollers.
Since trains will take different routes other than what regular customers are accustomed to, the following information shows how customers' trips will be "revolutionized" on Metrorail.
Travel on Metrorail is as follows:
The Blue Line will operate between Franconia-Springfield and Mt. Vernon Square/7th Street-Convention Center stations.
The Yellow Line will run between Huntington and Rosslyn stations (upper level).
Starting at 11 a.m., Red Line trains will alternate terminal stations at Silver Spring and Glenmont.
Starting at 3 p.m., Green Line trains will alternate terminal stations at U Street/African-American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo and Greenbelt.
Service for customers on the Orange Line will operate more frequently between Vienna and Stadium-Armory. Orange Line trains will alternate between New Carrollton and Addison Road-Seat Pleasant terminal stations.
Trips on Metrobus are as follows:
From 6 p.m. until closing, free shuttle buses will operate every 15 minutes between Franconia-Springfield Station and Springfield Mall at Macy's.
After the fireworks, free shuttle buses will run from D Street, SW, between Independence Avenue and C Street, and from Maryland Avenue between Independence Avenue and 7th Street, SW, to the Pentagon, where parking is free.
Does the NYC subway have a plan for the July 4th festivities in NYC?
Probably regular holiday service with no GOs (essentially what happened yesterday).
Let it be known that as while I was looking out the front window of a southbound #5 train (lead motor R-29 #8782) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 at 4:05pm Eastern prior to entering the 149th Street/3rd Avenue portal, I spotted going in its normal direction a northbound #5 train with ten R-36 cars #9769 to #9760 operating in revenue service. All of the train's had been signed with the proper route and terminal designations, except #9769's front box was partially stuck still on "Main Street Flushing".
Meanwhile, Unionport Yard was fully filled with lots of R-142 and R-142A trains (the highest car number I seen was #7410) plus fifteen R-62A cars signed up for the nighttime Dyre Avenue shuttle service. At nearby East 180th Street Yard, some of the "Redbirds" were still seen in layup storage outdoors, while more R-142's were inside the adjecent car barn.
-William A. Padron
R36 #9760-#9769 been running since last months on #5 line.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
Did you say you were on a southbound 5 train yesterday? I was ridng south on a 5 a little after 4 when 9760-69 came by going north. Yes, I believe I was in car 8782, riding near the train operator, who was female. Could we have been riding in the same train? I was headed to Bowling Green to work in the booth for Sunday (I was in uniform). That train operated on the local track, making express stops to 86 St, then local to 42nd St, before returning to the express track at Grand Central.
Well, wouldn't that be something having two SubTalkers meet and they don't know that the other is a SubTalker? Heh. Some funny things do happen....
-Stef
The answer is yes, we were riding that same train (with R-26 car #7781 in the rear) with the exact same description and route diversion on the southbound Lexington Avenue local track that you mentioned. But in my case, I was going to transfer at Grand Central for the trip on the Flushing-bound #7 to home in Jackson Heights.
Usually, as I am doing my personal railfanning and casual joy riding, I just more in focus as to what's outside on the road from the front storm door window. I really don't think much of meeting up with any other railfan or "SubTalker" unless it is at some special transit event or meeting.
-William A. Padron
You had to have been thinking of the R-10s at some point.:-)
At times I wonder how many Subtalkers are rideing my train. Like when I'm working the doors on the Redbird or the R142.
Well towmorrow I'm on the No.6 out of Parkchester.
Dave,
Why not do a secret message over the PA? Use some LIRR terminology, and say, "SubTalker go to Channel 4!" Or, "Our train will be delayed due to SubTalk at the RAILFAN WINDOW." That would be the signal for any SubTalkers on board to say hi to the C/R. (Then again, I know what you and your father look like, so I'm always on the lookout for you when I ride the #6!)
Thats nice to know. I can be on any IRT line since I'm Extra. I did get my once in a life time chance to work with my farther. It was great we did 3 trips together and diffrent Eqipment on each trip. The 1st an R62A 2nd R29 3th R142A. We had that train on time all day.I don't think it will happen again but who knows the C/R job is open 5 days because the C/R retired after 28 Years of service.
I do have to think about an coded message to get the attention of a Subtalker.
I used to use a codeword built into the car equipment itself. When working the R10s, I'd roll the end signs into position so that the CC would be positioned with the 8th Avenue from the C being over the route instead of under it. A yellow D or B instead of the orange and diamonds where possible would catch my friend's attention. Side signs on R44/46 can be programmed to "Playland" only as secret codewords coming into stations.
You have a much larger audience with your weather reports than any C/R does. (Heard you a week ago, BTW.) How about encoding exactly when and where you'll be riding on the air?
Sometimes when I'm on-air I do my reports from the "Portable Weather Center" at my house in suburban Boston, and it would be the MBTA I'm about to ride! Though on occasion I am in good-old-home-town NYC. In that case, I'll pass a secret message such as, "It will be a nice day to ride a Slant-40 over the Manhattan Bridge." (I actually said that once, when the traffic guy was Ray Rossi, another subway fan. And once when I flew with our helicopter traffic reporter Tom Kaminski (also a subway fan) he took me on an aerial tour of as many NYCTA yards as we could find.)
Splitting this thread in another way, there was a Corona invasion of R-36s several days ago. I have no idea if they left the mainline or if they are still on the 2/5 up in the yard.
On the reverse end of things, a Pelham R-36, 9492-93 was at Coney Island Yard on Saturday. What could they be up to?
-Stef
My guess is that Mainline R36 are to last longer than some of the WF ones, so they are swapping places.
And now, yesterday on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 at 6:10pm Eastern approximate, I board that same train at Brooklyn Bridge inside car #9766 on an uptown #5 run bound for East 238th Street-White Plains Road (its southern terminal was signed for Utica Avenue). To make matters really odd, I transfer over for the Flushing-bound #7 local at Grand Central, and enter inside R-33WF single unit #9307. I guess you can call that riding from one of the highest to one of the lowest car numbers of the same virutal ex-World's Fair SMEE design within the same half hour of the day.
-William A. Padron
The highest R142A # Ive seen is 7416-20. The highest R142 # Ive seen is 6601-05.
I was just wondering what the deepest subway tunnel in manhattan was...any responses would be appreciated.
191 St on the 1/9 is the deepest in the system.
The 63/Lex and Roosevelt Island also come close (or it seems to be).
181 St. and 190th St. IND as well.
And 181st and 168th on the IRT, too.
But 191st is the deepest of them all.
Roosevelt Island is obviously deeper below sea level.
That's interesting because the 125th St. station on the same 1/9 line is one the highest elevated stations, if not the highest; all this being a result of the greatly undulating topography of upper Manhattan.
Mark
The highest is the Smith/9th St station on the F/G line over the Gowanus Canal.
I was there. Great view of lower Manhattan. How high are we at that point?
88.5 feet.
--Mark
Holly cow, That's almost 100 feet!
The 125th Street Station on the 1/9 line goes over a fault in the earth - an inactive one, but there have been earthquakes in this area recently. Thik about that one, folks.
The Manhattan Valley fault?
Holly Bat cave Manhattan Man that is Stupenderific!~!
Worse yet ... ON the fault, there are special joints to hold up the arch bridge ... but they're oriented THE WRONG WAY (90 degrees) so if it does shake, that el's coming down.
Not to mention everything else in the area.
This is SubTalk. Why should we care about everything else in the area?
80 sumthin feet, remember those times man? You need to come down, you're missing waaaaaayyyy too much urban exploring me and Marcin been doing.
Candidates would include, I think, 63rd St line at Lexington (the lower level) (also, please note the LIRR tunnel will pass beneath that when it is extended west from 2nd Av); the Lex/53rd tunnel area on the IND, and the "7" train beneath Grand Central. Also, doesn't the #1 line go pretty deep at around 168th Street?
But I don't know which one is deepest.
i am just giving this an educated guess. i have been away from nyc for over 14 years but two areas comes to mind. the ind line at 34th street and ave of the america's or again the ind eight ave line east of broadway/ nassau st heading toward the east river.
i might be wrong but from reading alot of the information provided on this site i am sure one of the other guys will have the answer for you
jv
Don't forget about the PATH tunnel into the World Trade Center. That has to be pretty deep. As far as NYC Transit goes, I'd say the #1 around 181st Street and maybe even the A at 181st.
Don't forget about the PATH tunnel into the World Trade Center. That has to be pretty deep. As far as NYC Transit goes, I'd say the #1 around 181st Street and maybe even the A at 181st.
Of course, those tunnels at 181st are not deep in the sense that they dive far below the surface; they stay at roughly the same levels as elsewhere along the 1's and the A's runs, but the ground gets much higher.
On weekdays when do express trains on the BSS run and that is the last station of the Market elevated that has a crossover?
1) The express trains on the Broad Street line run all day on weekdays.
2) MFL crossovers: East-bound, there is a crossover between Bridge-Pratt (Frankford Terminal) and Margaret-Orthodox; westbound, don't know. They wouldn't need one near the terminal, since the service yard is immediately west of 69th St.
The last southbound express train is 6:32 PM, the last northbound train is 7:04 PM.
There is half a crossover between Millbourne and 69th Street.
There's an MFL track map on this site, in the Philly section.
There seems to be some confusion between whether the reference is to track crossovers or physical connections (which a passenger could use between platforms). Which one is in question here?
There is indeed a track crossover east of the 69th St platforms which is used on occasion when the loop is out of service.
On The Market El, there are only two crossovers (the one East of 69th Street is on a surface). There is one East of 63rd Street, and one West of 52nd Street. The Express runs on The BSS are from 6:30am (maybe earlier, maybe later) to 6:30pm. I hope that answers your questions.
I mean a passenger crossover from E/B to W/B.
They all have passenger crossovers on the Market St. El, except for Millbourne and 69th. This allows them to have only one token guy. There used to be no crossovers, but they then needed 2 token guys. Most of the Frankford El is the same way, but I wouldn't swear to it at every station. At 69th St. the last stop has no "entrance", only exits. The train circles around goes into the inbound platform where another token is needed. If you buy an all-day $5 pass, there is no need to worry about any of this.
The BSS express runs every 8 minutes rush hours, every 16 minutes midday. A Ridge Avenue express runs the other eight minutes, so north of Girard, I believe there is an express every 8 minutes all day.
I think the term you're looking for is "mezzanine". All of The Market Street El stations (except for 63rd Street, just a simple crossover) have mezzanines.
This afternoon my wife called me at work - something she rarely does. The brief conversation went something like this:
"Hi, you just got a phone call from ________________. They said the subway set you ordered is in. DID YOU BUY MORE GODDAM TRAINS? I hope you have the money to pay for them" click
Well, I guess that means my R-21s have arrived. Geez, talk about timing.
We've got a room ready for ya up here if ya need it ... and enough 18 volt DC substation to roll 'em all if you need to. :)
As I said, the timing was very unfortunate. I just got home from Americade, yesterday. Anyone who's been there knows it ain't cheap. She'll get over it, though - she always does. But hold the room just in case. :)
When you set it up, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions about the new set.
I have two sets on order...since I'm out west, it might be a while before my order gets delivered.
Heh. We're good for it ... just phone ahead so's we can put some sheets on the bed or on the trees ... your choice. :)
Ahhh, I avoid the big bike rally thing. I've heard Sturgis and daytona suck royally now. everything's $$$ and you have to avoid yuppies learning howwto ride on Main Street.
Hey, isn't the Americade more of a Goldwinger thing, anyway? :)
Hope it was fun - I barely avoided a downpour on the way home today :(
Looks like rain, the next few days.
And I need a new front tire (getting this weekend). Isn't timming wonderful?
Lots of Goldwings - especially trikes, Loads of everything this year including more Harleys and rice-rockets. As far as prices go, I had a nice cottage about 3 miles from ground-zero for $68 per night. Food was okay $$$$ too. No real trouble either until Saturday night when things were winding down and the crazies decided it was time to blow out their bikes on Rt. 9.
I have, thus far, avoided everything but Daytona. Laconia and Sturgis are harley events and I I'm too old to get beat up. I may do the HOOT now that it's been moved to Tenn.
"And I need a new front tire (getting this weekend). Isn't timming wonderful?"
After 6 hours of riding in the Mts. in Vermont, I need brakes (And my Shadow has drum brakes on the rear). Life sure ain't getting easy
Time to take the bike in for an IRAN or GOH. IRAN is an old aircraft term for Inspect Replace As Necessary. Kinda like a GOH.
The only harley owner who rode up there with us had done exactly that before we left. To our delight, his bike did almost as well as our poor Japanese rides did. Then again - ya know what they say:
Ride a Harley - Ride the best.
Ride a mile and walk the rest........
*drum* brakes?!?
Does the thing have solid lifters too? >:)
Hell, HD must have dropped drums in the 70's or so. Or was it 60's? Oh well...
Anyway, I can't complain after 25k miles on my '99 FXDWG.
But Harleys are for tinkerers. Not unreliable, but you always end up messing with them anyway... After managing to get 94hp at the rear wheel (up from the stock 55 or so), and I ride the snot out of the poor thing, it still hasn't let me down.
Trust is taking a hot rodded Harley out for a spin at 2am and not even thinking aboutgetting stuck at all ;)
Geez ... back when I was "ta" meat, I was dumb enough to sell a Norton 850 for a Honda 450 ... and that thing COULDN'T make it up Bailey Avenue southbound at more than 72 ... love your Nippondensos all ya want, I *miss* that ride ...
But hat's off to ya just the same ... I'm 50 now and sense my mortality. No mo' hogs for MY arse. Heh. Vroom.
MAN, one of these days we gotta meet ... when the lights go out and stay out down yonder, yer welcome here. :)
Trust me, my Shadow is a VT1100 and it does not mind hills at all. Sunday AM it made the trip from Northway exit 20 to the Bronx (210 miles) in 3:30 with 1 gas stop, without breaking a sweat. I was the first in my club to have a Shadow - now there are 4. 'tis a great bike. The new Shadow is 1800cc and I can't wait to demo it.
BTW:My Honda 360 tops out at about 72 MPH and I don't know yet about the CB550K I'm rebuilding. Would have loved to have that old Norton though.
Hey - what is this, Biketalk. The thought police will have our heads.
I be good ... but for what it's worth, that 850 scared the bejeepers outta me ... TOO much meat ... I shudder at the thought of 1800. Then again, I was in da Bronix ... how fast could you go without having the 50 or the 52 "get ya?" :)
Do I suspect you have lost your sense of adventure. If so, such a waste of manhood.
Curt
Heh. Nah, when you get a bit older you get a dose of, "honey, that's SO dangerous" ... and you have to decide between the hog and some nookie. Hint ... nookie wins. :)
Curt
I thought your first name was Charles, as in Charles Daddy.
I haven't been to the Americade for 3 years now. Although I usually do go to Lake George to stay over in Aug when I go to Saratoga Race Course) Up till then I went religiously for about 10 years in row. My wife, who actually likes bikes and bike rallies thinks one shouldn't go on vacation to the same place every year. I usually stayed the whole week each year spending 2 days on the free Harley Demo rides, and the rest of the week just riding. On either Thursday or Friday each year I would take a day trip to Montreal. One year on that day trip I spent the whole day unexpectedly at the Plattsburg Harley Dealer!! A blessing actually, because otherwise I would've broken down in Lake George and you know how busy the dealers are there during the rally!! Did you go on the Americade sponsered poker run? Very scenic. On the weekends I went to the Blue Knights activities there (as I am a member) including a Friday night pool party and a Saturday night dinner dance.
P.S. Don't you wish someone would revive Tuesday nights Nathans in Oceanside??
Wednesday nights at Nathans in Commack is alive and well. 200 - 300 bikes is average.
While a few of our members did the demo rides and the expo, we didn't do the polka Run. Our club tends to gravitate towards lots of riding back roads, moderate beverage and major food. The pool and hot tub were just an added distraction this year.
I did promise to take my wife there this year in late August or early September. She's tired of hearing how beautiful Lake George is.
I have very similar conversations with my parents when they find out that I'm going on "yet another one of those PCC rides!?"...
-Robert King
Funny, Jodi says the same thing when I buy model fire trucks...
(1/64 scale from Code 3 Collectibles-Requires less room than a layout)
-Hank
Alas, I fear most of the fairer sex will never understand the concept of "MORE TOYS - I NEED MORE TOYS" !!
<>i>Alas, I fear most of the fairer sex will never understand the concept of "MORE TOYS - I NEED MORE TOYS" !!
I could comment on that, but out of a sense of decency, I won't.
Let me say this softly and subtly.......
WOMEN WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND!!!!!
I get the same treatment, albeit a little less blunt, whenever more maps and other transit items arrive via e-bay. Nothing like having an icy cold stare from your wife as you get home from work.
But playing with your new "toy" has a funny way of tuning her out!
However, deep down, the "spousal unit" (as a wierd former friend used to refer to his better half) is secretly happy that we all are not wasting money on more damaging items, as we all could be.
I also get the funny comments when a new book, video or other railfan item comes home, but the wife had to know what she was getting into from day 1. We met in a Car House - that happened to full of streetcars.
I solved that problem by having things delivered to my office. She never notices that my collection is mysteriously taking up more shelf space :)
-Hank
>>>>I solved that problem by having things delivered to my office.
You know, that is a brilliant idea.
Only problem as to how to fill out the address form......
Deliver To:
Zman
1438-J-Parsons
Car 4573
Jamaica......no.....Richmond Hill........no...Woodhaven.......
Just wait 'til they go to install a DESK in that cab. :)
Well, for anyone who wondered what Shrubbie and the Elephant congress were going to do for train service out here in Amtrak land, we just got word (will be in TOMORROW'S Times Union) that the commuter rail project that we've already paid $6 million for is DEAD ... and also that Amtrak may be grounded as well (no track repair money for the upper Hudson line effectively ending Amtrak service at Poughkeepsie) ... thank ya Shrub ... thank ya, Dick Armey ... thank ya Trent ... hope your sewers back up.
That's a terrible shame.
What did you expect from a failed oilman.
:-( Andrew
For anyone who hadn't seen the earlier part of this story a couple of months ago, we had Congresscritter John Sweeney of Clifton Pork *demanding* that the existing route via Saratoga/Schenectady/Albany which Amtrak *now* runs some trains on diverted through *his* district on tracks that belong to CP and would cost a *fortune* to fix for speeds higher than 3 MPH ... every analyst said that the existing route was the only practical one so Mr. Sweeney (R-Clifton Park) decided to just trash the whole deal ... ya gotta love these elephants. After all, he rides a heavily armored SUV, what does he care?
Story should be in the local paper once it publishes in the morning, all I got so far was on our local TV news which is about as useful as federal policy itself. :)
Didn't see anything in the article about dropping Amtrak service north of Vassar. Did you see something about that somewhere else?
Yes, that's a SEPARATE issue, that's a federal funding issue that's still up in the air ... as for now, there isn't the money to move the Amtrak rails over to the new "Rensselaer" station (operated by the same CDTA that had the regional rail killed) and doubts as to whether Amtrak will ever pay for the needed rail improvements for the Turbotrains to run ... the TimesUnion article was ONLY about the commuter rail ... the rest was done by our local news outlets who cover our own local needs and that was part of the story of "what the Fuh? REPUBLICANS REALLY DO EAT THEIR YOUNG ..." ...
So we drill for oil ... feh ...
Regarding the Rensselaer station ... it seems a bit presumptious of Amtrak to have built it some distance from the existing tracks without having the funding in place to relocate the tracks. It's sort of like buying an expensive car when you know that you won't be able to afford the insurance.
Heh. Feds, NASDAQ ... any questions? =)
Isn't that station being built by CDTA, not Amtrak?
Yep ... CDTA is building and paying for it (as far as Amtrak is concerned, a pup tent will do) but Amtrak is paying for the track movement halvsies with the state. CSX wants that pesky existing station out of the way of their freights which is what the HUDSON LINE is for ... passenger trains continue to operate only by CSX's WHIM. They could pull the plug on Metro North ANY time they want to ... these are the kind of things that can happen when you privatize Gonerail. What was once government property is now private property.
Gonerail was a completely private corporation and was a little too profitable for it's own good. The Hudson Line isn;t much good for freight as it dosen't go anywhere. All it is used for is for local freight delivery, some NYC bound shipments and NYC Garbage trains.
Well, Gonerail was a "public benefit corporation" just like the US Postal Service, still was a government thingy or congress couldn't have chop-chopped it ... and ChickenSheetExpress (CSX) would flex their good old boy muscle if all they ran on the Hudson line was a geometry car once a year. They're VERY possessive. :)
Meant to add ... what's REALLY holding up all this track work for Amtrak is CSX wants COMPLETE REMOVAL of their "property taxes" for their rails statewide. And they're GOING to get their wish which means the rest of us will have to make up the difference out of our own paychecks. The state assembly hasn't signed off on this yet which is why MNRR and Hamtrak are being held hostage at the moment. And amazingly, CSX doesn't own a single oil well. :)
They want a significant cut from the recent significant increase, not complete removal of property taxes.
"Meant to add ... what's REALLY holding up all this track work for Amtrak is CSX wants COMPLETE REMOVAL of their 'property taxes' for their rails statewide."
WRONG! They want to not have any improvements made to CSX tracks, signals, etc. by the **state** to speed up Empire Service passenger trains count as CSX property for tax purposes. I know you think everything private business does is crooked and designed to screw the public, but do YOU think it would be fair for the state to come in and install improvements on CSX's land for the state's (and public's) benefit and not CSX's AND turn around and say "now your land is worth more 'cuz of the stuff we installed, so pay us more property tax"?
I bow head in shame and apologize ... spent some time digging after a previous post and the answer is somewhere between what I said and what you're adding. CSX is looking for a MAJOR DROP in property taxes STATEWIDE and is using the "hostage situation" with the trackwork as leverage. I've looked over the proposals and while that's what CSX's press release says, the proposals in front of the legislature are demanding a review of their property taxes across the state as they're doing in other states as well. So the truth is actually half way in between what I parroted from the local teevees and what CSX is spinning ... sorry about that ...
And I apologize for the snappish, rude, and overgeneralizing comment I made in the middle of my posting, especially in light of the fact that the truth is somewhere inbetween the positions of our postings.
No offense taken ... sometimes the signal to noise ratio erodes here and elsewhere on the internet. And I'm not arrogant enough to think I have all the answers either. Bottom line though is all of us up here have a good dose of the shakes over this since for us, no railroad, no trips to the city. Most of us are used to having the roads to ourselves and can't envision driving into the city and then we've got the politicos who just sit there with their thumbs up whereever it is that they keep them in. It'd be nice if they'd pander to the VOTERS once or twice a year. :)
Wrong on all counts.
The Hudson Line is for passengers, not freight. There is little freight, especially now that the auto plant in Tarrytown is gone. CSX can't pull the plug on MN because Metro North owns and dispatches everything below Poughkeepsie. CSX doesn't care one way or the other about Poughkeepsie-Schenectady.
Wasn't aware of south of Po'town, I thought it was Gonerail all the way down. Still leaves us in a bit of a dither tho'. :)
Actually, it's MP 74.
CSX isn't all bad. I don't blame them for going nuts on the property tax issue, and should not be reassessed for double-tracking their own ROW or improving the tracks for higher speed.
They agreed last week for an Amtrak station in Lyons.
Agreed ... CSX is a nicer bunch than NS but not by all that much. From what I understand, there had ALREADY BEEN an agreement for no changes in assessments for the "improvements" ... that was part of the original deal offered. But CSX *is* using it to leverage for a REDUCTION in their taxes in areas where none of this is being done as well and refuses to sign off on the work until they get the whole enchilada ... that's where it stands THIS week.
Of course, Bruno's kids are going to be taking off for the summer a week from today, no sign of a budget in sight so this is going to continue on for a while.
I couldn't find the story.
It was on teevee news tonight ... the TimesUnion is a morning paper so you won't see it until after about 4-6 am later. I figured I'd toss in the link anyway with "tomorrow's paper" noted so that it can be found once they have it online ... it's a bucolic life up here in Smallbany. :)
So how will Amtrak trains travel from NYC to Albany? Don't they have to run through Poughkeepsie?
Yep ... but that could turn into the end of the line. And since Amtrak would then be replicating MetroNorth service, no point in sending them north of 42 St in the first place. Pataki's already saying that if Amtrak won't run the trains to Albany and Buffalo that the state would have to kick in and do SOMETHING, but it would be at the expense of Long Island, Metro NY and downstate since there isn't a state budget either and rumor up here is there won't be any at all.
Interesting months ahead ... and with the heat wave hitting NYC this coming week, could get a WHOLE lot more interesting ...
But yeah, north of Po'town is "route of the pointless arrow" country. It's that which is at risk. The toonerville trolley in Albany and Saratoga county was something they were PLANNING to build and apparently won't be now after us local taxpayers poured a small fortune into what little has been done so far. And not ONE train has rolled for all that money either.
Amtrak doesn't replicate MTA service. It provides a premium express service which doesn't hit all the stations.
OK, I get it now. This is Joe Bruno flexing his muscle, doing his equivalent of Sheldon Silver's act when the Second Av subway was up for consideration. Find out what he really wants, find a way to get it to him, and some of this bogosity gets put to bed.
Yep ... but for now it's high rhetoric, and this game was started by Congresscritters ... Bruno and Shelley will probably ignore this one for now. Unfortunately, all there was on it so far was the usual two sentences teevee news gives it, "the commuter rail project is dead after Congressman Sweeney failed to get his way" ... not much to go on, we're waiting to see what explanation we get in the Times Union in the morning ... that'll likely also be mighty short of meat too ...
But over on radio, where they know *nothing at all*, there is much outgassing and gnashing of teeth ... the Amtrak question is ALSO at the federal level - there's a new Rensselaer station being built by CDTA about 600 feet away from the tracks. The tracks need to be moved to go to the new station when it's done and Amtrak ain't got the scratch. Pataki's already offered to front the money for most of that whenever there is a budget and let Amtrak pay later ...
And you guys thought YOUR porcine elected/anointeds were a$$holes. :)
And you guys thought YOUR porcine elected/anointeds were a$$holes. :)
These aren't pigs that are the elected officials. Their lack of brain power points to their being nothing more than filthy humans. :-)
Maybe it's their 30 minute orgasms that have us all fooled. =)
AmPig, I'M CALLING THE TV STATIONS, IT'S TIME FOR THE ***PIGVOLUTION*** is your team in place and ready for ACTION?
I read the article this morning. It's unfortunate.
What a freaking WHITEWASH!
First off, the article for anyone who cares is here:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=60045&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/12/2001
It was goofball (Sweeney) who killed the damn thing in the first place since it is *HIS* tracks that would cost all that money. The existing tracks on the "western route" run SEVERAL Amtrak runs every day and CP and Amtrak would have no problem since their own service at that time of day is SPARSE and most of the freights on CP territory run on the "eastern route" that NOBODY wants except for the congressdick. That line is perfectly fine for freight of course but CPRail shouldn't have to park freights for a gerrymandered rail line on tracks that aren't up to the task.
The realities were all covered in previous stories in the same paper but I don't have permission to reprint them and it costs to go to back issues. With the archives here kinda tucked away for good reason, I can only paraphrase the stupidity that was going on here where Sweeney read CDTA the riot act of "that train runs through MY town or it don't run at all" ... looks like the deekwads win once again.
SUV's rule ... Sweeney says so ... let's drill for oil.
After shrub fouls things up for the next year, Sweeney and the rest of the House GOP stand an excellent chance of joining their Senate chums in the minority. See how much funding he gets for his district then.
Won't be too soon. The boy is a snippy little sheet. Belongs in Mississippi, not THIS state ...
Hey...I'm from Mississippi!
Rest assured I voted AGAINST Trent Lott. It didn't work, though.
:)
Mark
Not to worry, we won't hold it against ya ... after all, the elephant party motto is, "We're for the rights of the unborn ... once you're born, you're on your own." And Trent and his buddies at "Southern Corp" will be our power provider tonight, may I suggest the sweet and sour shrimp?
But to keep this sorta on the yellow over yellow, M track is now open for your amusement ... no flashes, please. :)
Speaking of Mississippi, does anyone know whatever happened to Gil Charmichael? I remember he was always a rail advocate and held some position in the Department of Transportation under the first Bush administration. I don't know what he managed to accomplished or anything, except that he managed to get a really nice Amtrak station built in his hometown of Meridian, MS. I've used it, in fact.
Mark
He is a relatively positive voice on the ARC (Amtrak Reform Council)
Carmichael is Vice Chairman of Wabtec Corp. (Westinghouse Air Brake Co.)
The smartest thing I ever did in 10 years was leave New York State for New Jersey. They can't seem to get anything worthwhile rail project built without a political kickback or outrageous costs, as with the LIRR diesel fleet procurement or Airtrain, altough $34 million for Smalbany Rail is peanuts, considering their lavish highway boondoogles, like the LIE 4th lane or turning the Southern Tier Expressway into I-88.
I am not so naive to thing the NYS Senate will turn Democrat. Those districts are ingeniously gerry-mandered to ensure the Senate stays Republican and Assembly stays Democrat into eternity.
The smartest thing I ever did in 10 years was leave New York State for New Jersey. They can't seem to get anything worthwhile rail project built without a political kickback or outrageous costs, as with the LIRR diesel fleet procurement or Airtrain, altough $34 million for Smalbany Rail is peanuts, considering their lavish highway boondoogles, like the LIE 4th lane or turning the Southern Tier Expressway into I-88.
I-86, to be precise. I must say that the politicians seem to have the right intentions when it comes to that project. I-86 is not merely pork (though I'm sure it has its porky aspects), but is seen as a way of giving a chronically depressed part of the state a much-needed economic boost. West Virginia has had the same idea with some road projects, with a fair degree of success AFAIK.
Of course, the fact that the politicians have good intentions is no guarantee of success; we all know where good intentions are used as paving materials :-)
As far as the economic boost goes, everytime, the state opened a freeway upstate, the parallel railroad shut down in lock step, not that DOT has every seen the link, and upstate NY has been in econmic freefall steadily for 50 years, reprieved only by the Rockefeller SUNY expansion in the 1960's.
1) I390/DL&W/LV
2) Southern Tier Expressway completion in the early 1980's/ ex-Erie main west of Hornell
3) NY Thruway/West Shore to Buffalo
4) I81/DL&W Syracuse-Cortland branch reduced to short-line status
Perhaps it's time to speed up plans for the West Shore freight line. (NJT River Div.) The ERA Bulletin had a 5 part series a few years ago about how passenger service might be restored to parts of this line, and maybe eventually to Albany. It would be nice if they could take back the old Albany railroad station, which is now an office. Would be much more conveniently located than Rensselaer anyway. But if money is such a problem, that is probably wishful thinking as well. (Especially since it would have to be connected to the Penn Central tunnel, or you'd have to change at the Secaucus transfer.)
Anyone who can successfully demonstrate to the politicians how this would either save money or make money for them will see an almost mystical and miraculous movement on their part to get the project completed. Trust me.
Dream on. The West Shore proposals over the last 40 years are just a distraction. Chicken Shit Xpress would go into convulsions at the thought. There is a former 2 track tunnel around Orange County or somewhere that can accomodate only one track now to clear double-stacks.
Yeah, it's amazing ... up until inauguration day, we had an economy. Now we have a "tax cut" that's sucked everything right out of all the things we could have done after waiting more than 20 years to have an economy to get us past 20 years of "deferred maintenance" ... but I digress ... our commuter rail thingy is gone, going to be interesting to see what Dick Armey, Trent Lott and Dick Cheney are going to do to Amtrak. Now if there's OIL under them thar tracks, we'se saved. :)
Compassionate conservatism:
1) The era of big government is over for Blacks, Latinos, those living in older cities, and the entire Northeast; but..
2) "Needed" services for "deserving" people elsewhere get more and more funding, paid for with more and more debt.
I want Newt back.
Does Newt have oil we can drill for? :)
This government is wonderful. They kill the plan for commuter rail service in the Albany area after $6,000,000 of people's tax money has already been spent on it. They won't provide the money for track repair on the upper Hudson line so that Amtrak may need to be sidelined. But they have money to spend on things we don't need. What kind of government is this? Not a very smart one. Maybe Trent Lott's sewer should back up and there is no one who can help him.
BMTJeff
It DOES defy gravity ... but I'm sure that "tax cut" check will pay for a tank of gas. Look at how well that idea worked for Reagan. And we JUST finished paying off the debt from that one. :)
but it's really our own fault. We keep voting for the guy who did all this once again, so what's their incentive? It's not like any of them are afraid of US ...
If George W. Bush is given half a chance he'll manage to create a budget deficit. At the same time we are hurting ourselves when we vote for people who will cut funds for mass transit.
BMTJeff
I'm sure we're already well on our way to that now. After all, the tax cut numbers were based on an economy that doesn't exist THIS year. But not to worry, I'm sure oil trucks will be pressed into transit service. :)
George W. Bush will manage to find a way to weaken the economy further or the tax cuts will turn into tax increases to get rid of the budget deficit he manages to create because of his stupid mistakes. He doesn't appear to have much upstairs or what is there has already been zapped.
BMTJeff
And looks like the MTA's funding ruse with that "Dubya" train didn't seem to work either. :)
Does anything work when you do it wrong? Does George Dubya(W) Bush's brain work? I don't think so.
BMTJeff
Wow ... sounds like instead of a fan trip, we should organize a bush Bash ... maybe we can lease the Vermonter for a weekend. :)
That sounds like a great idea. Maybe someone should bash George Dubya(W) Bush in the head to knock some sense into him. Fat Chance!
BMTJeff
I believe that could be taken rather poorly by his personal squad. But we can all take heart in the fact that he's managed to pyth off EVERYBODY including his own conservatwits and will continue the family legacy of being a continuing joke and ultimately a one term wonder. No implied or potential threats in that outcome. :)
Maybe we should just put him on the bus to Kearney and leave it at that.
A question about the placement of 6-car, 8-car, and 10-car stop markers....
At most stations that I use regularly, the car-stop markers are placed in some logical progression, usually one of the following:
* 6, then 8, then 10
* 6 and 8 together, then 10
* 6, then 8 and 10 together
However, the Manhattan-bound platforms at Woodhaven Boulevard and Elmhurst Avenue (Queens Blvd Line) have the 10-car and 6-car markers together at the front of the platform and the 8-car marker alone, 20 to 30 feet behind. Was that a mistake, or is there a logical reason to have 6-car trains stop further forward than 8-car trains (at these two stations only)?
6 car mark is actually the mark for 4-car trains of 75 foot cars - especially opto trains. I believe that the 6-car mark was placed where it is because of the geometry of the station (curved) and that was the safest placement.
One other thing I've seen also as consideration is when one end of the platform's exits are closed so the train might as well stop towards the stairways that are actually OPEN for those cuts of night trains ...
How do you explain Lex/63rd (which is also like this). There are a few others I can't remember offhand.
And where are the stop markers for the Archer Ave line?
If you can't see them, they are probably mounted under the edge of the platform.
The stop markers on the Archer line ARE undrt the platform edge. Since the platforms of all the stations on this line are of the island variety, this means that the stop markers are on the left side of the train, as opposed to the right side.
One T/O put an 8 and 10 car markers on the wall one the right side of the trains.
Robert
I can't account for the reasoning behind the placement of every car marker. There are TSS's that go out and given the operational criteria, determine the best placement for the markers and C/Rs boards. I'm quite sure that there are stations where a case could be made for alternate placements of both. It may simply be subjective in some cases - I really don't know...
I also wondered about that. At Smith-9th Streets going southbound the "6" and "10" car markers are at the end of the platform while the "8" car marker is 60 feet away. What's the point of that?
Car markers are supposed to be strategically placed so that the bulk of the train stops close to where the 24 hour entrance and exit is located.
Placing the stop markers so far away from the exit makes no sense.
At 96th Street on the 1/2/3/9, ten-car trains pull up all the way to the south entrance but nine-car trains stop one car short. Since the south entrance is all the way at the south end of the platform but the north entrance is a car length or two away from the north end, there's really no reason the nine-car trains shouldn't stop at the far south end.
Yes, I've missed trains because of this. My last close call (I just barely made it) was on a Sunday morning. From the mezzanine, I heard a train pull in. I ran downstairs and, before I was close enough to see the train, I saw a crowd at the foot of the stairs by the express track -- I figured they were boarding a 2. It turns out that they were a bunch of confused tourists just standing around, obstructing access to a 3. (Of course, everyone's instinctive reaction is to wave at the T/O, who can't do anything since he doesn't control the doors.)
Similar situation at Northern Blvd (Jamaica-bound platform), where the 8 marker is a car-length from the 10 marker. If a G train pulls into the station, you can't see it from the platform level entrance at the back of the station. Many a G train I have missed here.
There is no back entrance but have you ever seen how far the back of a southbound G stops from the end of Woodhaven Blvd southbound, when you see how far it stops from the front as well, the G looks incredibly short even though its only a two car difference. If this was made four cars it has to be centered all entrances/exits are towards the middle of Woodhaven, and therefore, centering it is the best way to go. I don't know why 6 car trains of 60ft cars stop all the way up in the front, then the rearmost entrance of Woodhaven might lose out.
So the G and F trains can utilize the same Route Request Punch Box. Otherwise, there would need to be two of them.
Not in this case. There is two punch boxes at Smith-9th, but one of them is south of the C/R's position and there is no car stop marker parallel to the 1st box. An 8 car G train after making a station stop still has to pull up to the 10 to punch.
Again as stated in a prior post, the 6 and 10 are together so that a C/R on a 6 car train can use the CCTV at the 10 car C/R's board.
The reason as to why the 6 & 10 car markers are together at Woodhaven & Elmhurst on the G/R is to line up the C/R's position with the CCTV cameras.
Since "6 car" trains are always R46's (normally G trains on Friday evenings and Monday mornings), the C/R rides in the last car. By placing the 6 at the end of the platform, the C/R is then able to utilize the cameras at the 10 car C/R's indication board.
There ya go.
By "6 cars" you really mean 4 car R-46, right? (75 footers use 8 car marker for 6 car trains, and 6 car marker for 4 car trains.)
So I gather that these late Fri. and early Mon. trains are 4 car remnants of weekend OPTO service?
>>>>>>By "6 cars" you really mean 4 car R-46, right? (75 footers use 8 car marker for 6 car trains, and 6 car marker for 4 car trains.)
So I gather that these late Fri. and early Mon. trains are 4 car remnants of weekend OPTO service?
Correct on both counts.
I have an intersting point: DeKalb Ave southbound bridge track, just before the sign that says 4/6/8, there is a white sign with black number saying 3, it has been taken down now, but I always remember the sequence of car # stop points being 3, 4/6/8, 10, the 3 was just taken off this station recently I believe.
I was wondering if anyone can help me with something. I know LIRR makes more than Subway Motormen. My Dream is to operate a Train. It really doesn't matter for whom, but i have narrowed my choices down to Long island Railroad or the Subway. I like Long island Railroad because its a nicer environment and their Trains go faster not to mention No uniforms for Locomotive Engineers. However, I was wondering, although they make more money, do they get good benefits like the subway, possibly better than the subway? Because several Motorman i know plan to soon leave the subway, and they are steering me away towards the railroad rather than the subway. Please email me at paulroach2001@yahoo.com
Thank you
Well, me and a friend were on the A, and passed the test train on the test track. Upon arrival at Broad Channel, we detrained (3:45). The southbound A left, and a shuttle had just pulled into the relay. Work diesel #72 (a dual mode) pulled up to just south of Broad Channel on the Northbound track. I see the test train getting closer, and surprise! Someone gets out and picks up each red flag. The train pulls into Broad Channel (southbound track) at almost exactly 4:00 PM, reverses and switches to the northbound track. The work diesel, which had sat there all this time blocking the next shuttle and an A, chased it (protection train?).
The shuttle comes out of the relay, then the next S and A come in northbound. Shuttle leaves, and the next soutbound A comes, but now the bridge is open. The C/R asks the T/O over the intercom "how long does this usually take, anyway?", of course after several announcements "South Channel Bridge open, we expect to be moving momentarily".
The cars on the trainsets were arranged in numerical order. North to south, 8105-8108, 8104-8101. That means the cab cars are not just the odd numbers, but simply multiples of 4 and multiples of 4 + 1. The same way the 142 cars are arranged.
And, as long as you're reading this, I used the feedback form to ask where I can send a map I wish to contribute to the site (1972, scanned), but got no response (a few days ago).
I apologize for my ignorance on this subject, but could someone please explain what the big deal is about overshooting the staion a bit??? as long as it stops and picks up passengers shouldn't it be no harm no foul??? I'd appreciate it if some of you could help me understand this.
The BIG problem with an overshoot (even worse on an elevated line) is that you can have geese take that big step out a door and drop onto a live third rail, fall under the train, drop 13 to 20 feet to the ground or any variety of DEAD ... secondly, the inability to stop a train on the mark is taken as a sign of alcohol or drug abuse and a potential warning that you've got a potential Union Sq wreck in the making ... it's taken *VERY* seriously by management when it occurs. If I'm not mistaken, the guy who wrapped that train around the pillars had overshot at least one stop himself prior to the wreck ...
Rule of the railroad, "you must have YOUR train under control at ALL times" ... mushy brakes, no brakes, mechanical problems are no excuse. As just an example, my motorman's career ended one Tuesday morning in the Stillwell layup yard with 8 cars of R1/9 that I had just passed a call-on to layup behind another D train. My equipment blew a gasket and I suffered a brake release at 3 MPH ... WHAM! No question it was a mechanical failure, not my fault, but I didn't have complete control of my train and I was a probie to boot ... I got shown the door.
Rule 98(b) They must take every precaution for the safety of their trains and passangers. When a train is in motion the resposobility for safe running rests entirely upon the train operator.
Rule 39 (c)Overrunning or Stopping Short of Platform.
Okay its an old rule book and 98 is BOLD ALL CAPS.
yeah, remember that ... but in the yards, no geese ... STILL ... "you MUST be in complete control of your train at ALL times." And yeah, Catch 98 applied. They got me fair and square ... deferred maintenance and all ... TWU did sheet ... after all these years, I'm still bitter about that but hey ... I didn't do a Luciano and if there WERE geese on board in the yard, only 22 of them would have laid down and called 1-800-INJURED. :)
thanks for clearing this up for me I get it now.
You're welcome ... and yes, you're having a REALLY BAD DAY if you blow past the station and someone notices. :)
DART rivers here in Wilmington like to do that, especially when it rarely run to begin with, thus making a REALLY REALLY BAD DAY for people who just dropped their off for service.
check that...those who just dropped their CAR off for service.
OK, I don't get it. What were you supposed to do? If you are held responsible for "not having your train under control", then you must have been able to do something to prevent that. It's not like you were going over 10mph or breaking some other rule from what I gather.
Dunno ... probably could have kept my job if I had put my leg between the anticlimbers at impact ... alas, too busy in the cab trying to throw the reverser, pull the cord and things like that ... "damaged the property" I did I did ...
Anyone here though who operates can tell you how logical the piling on of blame gets to be ... and there's more levels of supervision now than there was before, all of them looking for something or someone to "look busy" with. :)
In any event in which the damages exceed $9,999.99, the NTSB must be notified. If your incident had reached that threshold, then the true cause would have been found, independent of any internal investigation. Unfortunately, if you were on probation, they didn't need to wait until the fat lady sang.
Yep ... I knew the rules when I raised my right hand ... "I, insert name here, do solemnly swear to do my best to bend over and pick up the soap ... and like it." NTSB was not notified, but I crinkled the metal under the storm doors enough that they had to put on new ones. :)
Here's the bad news:
Long Island City Service
Jamaica departures:
8:11 8:20
LIC Departures:
4:54 5:30
The one off-peak LIC departure (3:24 to Port Jeff) has been cut to Hunterspoint, along with the 4:30 Patchogue, et al. Why bother renovating the station, demote its status to "Yard" and have an unofficial acceptance of passenger boarding and detraining at that location.
Hempstead Branch
Floral Pk and Queens Village riders get acquainted with a shuttle bus. Both large and pocket schedules split into two separate schedules. I know this is unavoidable, but take a look at the ones below:
Port Jefferson Service
One peak and one off-peak express to Jamaica train has been removed. The 4:06 PM out of Port Jeff and the ~5:30 PM out of Jamaica now require changes at Hicksville and Huntington, respectively. The change at Hicksville is to an already SRO Ronkonkoma train. I suspect this cutback was to reduce the need for an additional diesel engine on the road as they send the D?30ACs out. Who thinks they'll ever put it back?
(All times out of Jamaica, I don't remember the NYP times).
Three years ago, the LIRR cut the 2:50 train. The train used to be Express to Huntington stopping at Mineola (xfr for Oyster Bay), Hicksville, Syosset, and Huntington (xfr for Port Jeff). What they did: They "temporarily" cut it and moved the Oyster Bay connection to the 2:34 Ronkonkoma (like they have plenty of extra seats for OB riders), and the Port Jeff connection combined with the 3:18 (changed to 3:13) local to Huntington (all those bootleg stops, IIRC incl. Hillside). The schedule's been that way ever since.
The good news, they put an additional train into the 2:50 slot. The bad news, it makes all stops to Hicksville and that's it, Port Jeff riders are still left with the long local ride and OB riders must still share with Ronkonkoma. On Fridays the train runs all the way to Huntington, but with no PJ connection.
Oyster Bay Branch
Not one single major change. Interpret this as you like.
The good news
Direct weekend long beach service. NYP (10:02) to Long Beach (10:48), nonstop. Reverse is 4:45 LB, 5:11 JAM, 5:30 NYP. I don't remember this in previous schedules.
Is this due to problems with dual mode diesels? Are a bunch of them headed for repair, so LIRR is short on trains?
There is main line track rehab, which probably requires less trains to run through the affected area (I guess around Hollis and QV). The problem is, the Port Jeff cuts are totally irrelevent to this problem since it affects off-peak direction only (peak direction was replaced with another train, electric). So that's because of the engine problem.
The LIC cuts probably have to do with decreased ridership since the ferry was discontinued and the 7 riders are forced into a 4 block detour to get there while they rehab the main entrance. I hope they return those trains and possibly add more once that work is completed. The MTA could really market the LIC station as an east side connection if they tried (like "The Flatbush Connection" campaign to get lower Manhattan riders to use the Brooklyn line - this actually worked). Ferries could whiz people from LIC to anywhere along the waterfront, with much less hassle than the subway or going through NYP and backtracking. If LIC had hourly off-peak and decent peak service, combined with a lower rate for travel (Zone 2?) or possibly a combo ferry/train ticket or pass at the current fare, the service would most assuredly bloom. The MTA is making an egregious error by ignoring this potential asset. Nine tracks and they only use two?
It's like Hoboken vs NYP in NJTransit. Several trains run to / from points west to Hoboken through Newark, and during the rush many people stay on to Hoboken because it's easier to get to Lower Manhattan from Hoboken than NYP (and the fare from pts west to Newark is the same as to Hoboken). This service is being cut somewhat due to the Bergen tunnel rehab, but NJT usually makes good on service restoration promises (unlike LIAR).
===
since it affects off-peak direction only (peak direction was replaced with another train, electric). So that's because of the engine problem.
====
It isn't because of the engines. It effects off peak more because only two tracks will be in service between Jamica and Queens Village. Three tracks will be in service during peak times.
I'm getting sick of all this track work. And that spot near Floral Park is good for speed, now we'll be crawling.
That one LIRR dash between Mineola and Jamaica will be ruined, in addition to service cutbacks. Shuttle buses are horrible (buses are slow to begin with).
The only branch that seems to escape the construction/cutback mess is the Babylon line. Well the Babylon line has the most frequent and fastest service on all of the LIRR. Just another reason to move to South Shore.
BURN THE SLOW ORDERS AND WRAP IT
AND OUTTA MY WAY TRACK WORKERS!
As much as I hate slow orders as a former Service Tech for Tamper now Fairmont Tamper I understand their need. If the track is not resurfaced and brought up to FRA Class standard you will never have those quick dashes on any line. Have a derailment going to fast on slow track and the FRA will fine the company concerned more than it would have cost to resurface the track. Can't run 70 mph on an interstate full of Pot Holes.
Burn the Slow Orders and Wrap It
Curt
"Be careful what you wish for." I remember when the TA decided that track work was too much of a bother. The results were not encouraging. Bitch and moan if you must about how long they take to do the work, but don't complain that it's being done.
This alleged track-work is a panic move to install concrete ties because the 150-ton DM engines are spreading the rails. The last concrete tie installation east of Kew Gardens resulted in replacing wooden ties that were a mere 7 years old and sold to the BR&W.
Evidently, the LIRR has the Long Island Republicans wrapped around their fingers and get away with Super Steel engine procurement and concrete tie boonddoggles, unnecessary track work, Dual modes are as good as electrification nonsense, and countless other lies.
I think the weekend expresses to Long Beach appear every summer. Certainly I remember them a few years ago the first and only time I went to Long Beach.
They even run when it rains and no one goes to the beach.
The eastbound Long Beach express has run every summer since at least 1975. The westbound express is a more recent change, coming about 5 to 10 years ago. Before that there were two locals added in the late afternoon, so that service was half-hourly instead of hourly between 4 and 6 PM.
CG
I saw that yesterday.
The LIC station doesn't seem to get much respect on the LIRR. When all the other stations in diesel terretory got raised platforms (like the ones in electric terretory) for the new trains, LIC got a tiny little wooden joke of a platform, basically a staricase to nowhere, which lines up with ONE DOOR!
I hope there a way someday to convert that "Lower Montauk" to a subway line.
:-) Andrew
That idea was killed by the late Donald Manes and the other NIMBYS of Glendale, Maspeth, and other areas of Queens who did not want a subway line going through their part of town.
The platform got extended, it now fits two and 1/2 cars. They still only open one door.
During the mainline track GO last year they put temporary staircases on tracks 6 and 7 which lined up with each door. They should have thrown up wooden staircases to keep the four closed lower Montauk stations (if only as flag stops), but oh well...
I's Major transit authority tring to screw up our commute?
There is no gravity. The Earth sucks. MTA is just doing its part for the ride.
This question hasn't been beaten to death yet so, there are 2 screens in the console of the R143. The right one is the computer. What does the left one serve as?
trainlint troubleshooting monitor
Gotcha! Now, would you happen to know which screen the brake and straight air pressure monitor and speedometer are on?
I forgot I had the "At Your Service" pamphlet that features the new cars. It says"The cabs have two display screens; one ofr the operator to monitor train-line operations such as spped, side door status and braking systems, and the other for maintenance functions". (I had gotten the two mixed up).
Today; we collect alimony.
It is a well known fact that railroaders are high in the top ten for
divorce rates in the United States. Being gone all the time and
keeping the hours we must keep to perform our chosen career play
a major role in this statistic. However, that is not what I will be
discussing today.
On the railroad, alimony is our nickname for held away from home
pay. Held away time is the penalty the railroad must pay us for not
getting us back to work at our away from home terminal within the
required time. I will explain all of this in simple, easy to use terms.
We'll use my last trips south and north as the model as they are the
freshest in my mind and make perfect example. We were ordered
to work on Friday the 8th at 2030 hours. We performed our duties
and delivered the train to Champaign and tied up at 0330 hours on
the morning of the 9th. We were cabbed to the hotel and began to
book our rest.
Before heading out in the cab, I checked with those in charge at
Champaign and it was their feeling that we would not be going to
work much before 2100 hours that day on train 349. This means
we would be here for awhile and I decided to make the most of it.
Being that the health club we have access to was closed at this
hour, I decided to stay up and watch the replay of the White Sox
beat those hapless Cubs (Completely Useless By September) on
TV.
Of course, this information is not by any means gospel and very
likely to change at any given moment. And more often than not, it
does change and change and change and change........
I finally succumbed to the grasp of Morphius around 0550. I
returned to the world of the awake at around 1230 that afternoon,
some nine hours after tying up. I was refreshed and revitalized, No
I wasn't really, it just sounds good. I am not one of those insane
people who are happy to wake up and feel good about starting the
new day. I am a lousy riser and especially hate mornings. I am not
now, nor have I ever been, a morning person. But I digress.
I am now awake in the physical sense anyway, and gather up
enough of the mental state to collect enough thought to give the
call board a call and see if the best laid plans remain intact. Eileen
says that we indeed stand for 349, probably somewhere between
2100 and 2200 hours. Hmm, probably somewhere between.
Already the plan begins to fluctuate. Not a good sign. So as not to
waste this day and make it an "unday" as I call it, I get ahold of my
buddy Jon Roma who lives in Champaign and we decide to get
together for lunch. We did the lunch thing and some bumming
around and call it a day around 2000. Still no call to work though.
Now to explain the alimony part. I work unassigned freight which is
called "chain gang" here on the CNIC. Some railraods call it pool
freight. What this means is we do not have an assignment to a
specific train. While we do have turn around assignments and two
jobs that lay over every trip, chain gang is unassigned and means I
can catch almost anything they decide to run be it a grain, coal,
potash, ore, manifest freight or intermodal train. Being that we are
not assigned also means that we amy catch anything on the trip
back home to Chicago as well.
Once we have tied up in Champaign, the collective bargaining
agreement requires they have us back on duty within sixteen hours
of our tie up at the away from home terminal, in this case being
Champaign. This is to prevent them from keeping us here and
away from home for an undue length of time. It is a financial
penalty or incentive depending upon your perspective to encourage
them to get us rolling.
So to make this a little clearer; we tied up at 0330. This means that
sixteen hours from that point at 1930, if not back on duty, we start
to get paid by the minute in actual time to sit around and not work.
And today we would get that alimony. So now I am getting paid to
sit around or bum around with Jon in this case. I know some
management type is probably now screaming that this is what is
wrong with this country as the unions are ruining it for everybody.
Well from past experience, this penalty is well deserved.
When we are sitting around at the away from home point for days
through no fault of our own, there should be a penalty. If I don't
work, I don't get paid. It is not my fault I cannot work when being
held here. Having worked for two railroads that did not have this
penalty payment, there is really no incentive for them to get you
home and believe me, at times they were in no hurry to get us
there either. Try being stuck in a hotel room for days on end waiting
to get called to work. You still have to eat. You still have to have
clean clothes. Our away from home meals are not paid for by the
company up front. And even what we get does not cover actual
meals. It is a fixed amount. Engineers on the CNIC get $7 for up to
a twelve hour layover. After twelve it goes up to $14. After twenty
hours it goes up to $21. After 28 hours it goes up to $28. And it is
not paid until the second following pay day. Trainmen get less; $6
for up to twelve hours and $12 for twelve and beyond. They don't
get any additional money in excess of twelve hours.
Held away time is paid by the minute at the lowest rate possible.
For an Engineer this means the basic day. The basic day is without
any of the arbitraries such as no Fireman pay, no certification pay
and no short crew allowance. It is paid in actual time based on the
total layover.
So here is what happened. We finally get called out at 0245 on the
morning of the 10th. And not for 349 but instead for intermodal train
191. What this means is we did not work at all (that is get a start)
on the 9th. We layed over some 23 hours and 15 minutes in
Champaign. We collected 7 hours, 15 minutes of held away from
home pay.
Now another factor comes into play here, proper rest. We were told
that we would be going around 2100 or so hours. That call time of
two hours before came and went. When I called the caller to see
what was going on and why we weren't getting called I was told
"They don't know what they are going to do with you guys." They
don't know so we have to make accomodations for the unknown.
So much for an an all scheduled operation.
I am wide awake and in no need of sleep for quite awhile. So I
watched the Colorado Avalache win a long overdue Stanley Cup
for Ray Bourque. I cheered and celebrated with them. Then I
watched a program on the History Channel about Viet Nam
chopper pilots. Only then did I start to get tired and attempted to
get some sleep. This was around 2355 when the program
concluded. I cannot sleep on demand, I have to be tired. Even
then, I did not fall right to sleep. I did manage to get about twenty
minutes of sleep before the phone rang at about 0052 and the
summons came to get train 191 at 0245. I managed to get about
another twenty minutes of sleep after the call.
I have been averaging some alimony at least once a week if not
more while laying over. Once upon a time, there was hell to pay if
excessive alimony was paid out to the crews while laying over. It is
not like that now though. Sometimes to beat crews out of the held
away pay, they will call you back to work in sixteen hours and then
you sit around the yard office for hours account your train is not
ready to go. Then, the overtime factor becomes an issue at the end
of your day. They'll pay you the time and a half OT to save the held
away which is the lower rate. Stumbling over dollar bills to pick up
pennies.
It is not just the CNIC though, other railroads will routinely do the
same. I have experiened it at other railroads and have many
friends at other railroads who repeatedly tell me the same stories.
And for what it is worth, the 349 train we were originally supposed
to get was sitting there on the outbound lead all air tested and
ready to depart as we rolled past it on 191 when we departed
Champaign at 0310. And I was told by the Yardmaster when he
drove us out to get onto our train, it had been ready since 2100.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron
In various places, I've seen references to a hefty wage tax in Philly for commuters. A couple questions:
1) How much is this wage tax?
2) Does it apply only to non-residents who commute to the city, simply to anybody who works in the city?
3) Are there any particular tax advantages/disadvantages to living on either side of the Delaware River?
Thanks in advance!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't know the exact amount; it's around 6%.
Everybody who lives or works in the city is subject to the wage tax. There's an advantage to living in Jersey in that the city wage tax is credited on the state income tax form, so PA residents pay both city wage tax and state income tax on the same income, but Jersey residents pay only the city wage tax.
I don't know the exact amount; it's around 6%.
Philadelphia is nothing if not precise when it comes to setting rates. Starting July 1, the rate is 4.5385% for city residents and 3.9462% for nonresidents. Can't get much more precise than that!
Everybody who lives or works in the city is subject to the wage tax. There's an advantage to living in Jersey in that the city wage tax is credited on the state income tax form, so PA residents pay both city wage tax and state income tax on the same income, but Jersey residents pay only the city wage tax.
A New Jersey resident working in Philadelphia (or anywhere else outside the state) still has to pay New Jersey income tax on his or her earnings.
A New Jersey resident working in Philadelphia (or anywhere else outside the state) still has to pay New Jersey income tax on his or her earnings.
A Jersey resident subtracts his Philly wage tax from the NJ state income tax liability on the Philly income, so until his effective rate exceeds 3.9462%, he doesn't pay NJ income tax on his Philly wages.
Why worry about all this? If you work in Phila., you will be taxed by the City of Philadelphia wherever you live. Why not live where you feel comfortable? While New Jersey is very pleasant, it is somewhat rural feeling. If you like Chicago, you may prefer the Phila side. The NE has very nice row house communities.
you also might want to try delaware, significantly less expensive to live than Jersey, and no sales tax, you'd still be subject to the city wage tax though Mass Transit is a pathetic joke, though.
Delaware as an absolutely EVIL personal property tax. NJ is by far the best in terms of tax options.
Delaware has an absolutely EVIL personal property tax.
Connecticut's even worse - they have an exhorbitant personal property tax on motor vehicles AND a sales tax.
The worst part aboot CT is the 4fucking9 cent gas tax. NJ rules where it comes to gas. Full serve to.
NJ is by far the best in terms of tax options.
But how much are the tax advantages offset by what I'd be paying for auto insurance, compared to PA? Delaware is probably a bit far south for me, as I'd like to have somewhat-easy access to NYC.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, Delaware is about 30 minutes from the Vet in Philly and about 2 1/2 to -3 hour straight shot up the length of the Jersey Turnpike to the GW. Car insurance isn't too bad as long as you have a good record. I have a 2000 Sonata and I only pay $96 a month.
the disadvantages are that DART First State is just a joke...unless you line in Rodney Sq or right on Kirkwood Highway OR if you want to get up @4am to get a SEPTA train
If I had to live 30 minutes away from Philly, I'd just as soon live 30 minutes closer to NYC instead of 30 minutes further away (not to mention being close to SEPTA or PATCO).
-- David
Chicago, IL
If access to NYC is really important to you, you might want to consider living somewhere close to the SEPTA R7 line, the one that goes to Trenton and connects with NJT trains to New York. This would give you plenty of options, from the happenin' neighborhoods of Center City to the quieter Northeast. University City wouldn't be bad either, as it has easy access by trolley to 30th Street Station and the R7.
Mark
But how much are the tax advantages offset by what I'd be paying for auto insurance, compared to PA?
Depends on where in PA. Jersey has had the highest auto insurance rates of any atate in the country for years, but Philly residents lie to get Jersey policies because they're cheaper than in Philly.
Well I finally did it. I rode the 2 through the east side and thru the South Ferry Loop on Saturday and Sunday Night. For those who aren't familiar with the 2 Line GO, the Manhattan Bound 2 is routed on the 4 Line from Nevins to Wall Sts. At Wall Street, train crews swap trains and a new crew takes the train south threw the loop. How bizarre! We're now going south to get to the Bronx. The train bypassed Bowling Green in both directions as is all stops from South Ferry to Courtlandt St.
Saturday, I got car 6310 to myself, the R-142. There wasn't a whisper to be heard from this car. Not a soul to be found. I rode from Atlantic Av to Wall St, and was greeted by a Train Operator who took the train thru the loop. Smooth sailing. Unfortunately, Conductor was having trouble resetting the strip map and announcements. These features weren't operating during the reroute. I did find one interesting item: The Computer can announce local stops even if it isn't on the strip map. Strip map light is steady until we get to the actual stop.
Sunday, I got an R-33. With that comes the RAILFAN WINDOW. I'm salivating at the mouth. I waited at Wall St for the 2 to come in, crews swapped trains, and off we went over the switch. This was a slower ride unfortunately. Track Crews were working around the loop which slowed the 1 and 2 Trains up. Someone was kind enough to give the deuce a diverging lineup at 34th St to to run up on the express track to 96th St and make up for lost time.
All in a days work! It may be late at night, but there's lots of interesting things going on in the Subway System.
-Stef
In the midst of reconstruction of the 2nd Av Layup Tracks and the switch to Essex St on the J, I've observed that the punch boxes on the southbound F have been replaced. A marking indicates what each button is for.
My question is with regards to the Layup tracks. A diagram on the wall near the punch box, shows the T/O on the Queesnbridge Shuttle that he/she has to take three yellows for the layup track followed by a call on (red,red, over yellow). What's the reasoning behind taking a call on as opposed to getting standard line up on these layup tracks? Is the signalling going to change as the track gets upgraded for the V?
-Stef
It's like this to make sure T/Os don't enter too fast into the station and overshoot because there is a "wall" there. I think this is getting changed in order to provide enough headway for the F and V at rush hour conditions.
My railfan adventures get more exciting everyday. I caught the Refuse Collector working on the non revenue trackage that connects the northbound 6th and 8th Av lines south of West 4th St tonight. The collector was waiting for a lineup to come into West 4th on the F tracks. But wait! An R-134 was on one end, and an R-32 was on the other. Not to say it hasn't been done, but an IND car looks peculiar working on the same train with a smaller IRT work motor. Gosh, what will they do next?
I pull into 149th St, GC on the 2 and the refuse collector out of 239th St Yard pulls northbound on the southbound track. Where was it coming from? The train was hanging out on the jughandle (track that connects 7th Avenue and Lexington Av) and came out of it. That's odd. I can't recall seeing any equipment get lineups to go into the station from there. The track is reverse signalled, but how often does a train have to travel in reverse as was the case with the refuse collector?
Is there a general consensus among my friends in RTO, that Control Center's number one priority is to keep the road moving and put the Refuse and Revenue Collectors out of the way?
-Stef
One small point: Unless things have changed recently, Refuse Trains are called "Pick-Ups". "Collectors" are the money trains. So actually the Pick-ups collect garbage and the collectors pick up the money. Otherwise, R-32s would be natural to use if a work-motor was not available. It's by no means a regular practice but it isn't all that rare either. The crews love it especially if the AC works. And yes, keeping the road open for revenue trains is everyone's priority (contrary to Robert Blake in "Monet Train").
>Refuse Trains are called "Pick-Ups".
Point noted! Thanks....
-Stef
Stef,
Just a few days ago, (Thursday?) at Queens Plaza around 2pm on the southbound express track a "pickup" came in. The rear box motor had its motor light on and the crew was bitching about only have the one car pulling the train. They were waiting for a lineup, when they got it on the express track home signal the tower operator came running out screaming HOLD IT.
He pointed out to the operator that they needed the secound signal down the local track (for the R turnout??) before they could go. He held the train, ran over to the local track to look down the track then okayed them to leave.
I guess I saw your broken motor thta the R32 replaced?
Possible. R-127s and R-134s will get bad ordered occassionally. When nothing is available, out come the substitutes.
-Stef
The R32's were the GE R32's. They don't have A/C in them, or at least the ones I had on the "A" line the other day. All the A/C motors switches were hald down by signs glue down over them.
Robert
In that backwards land of misfit toys called the IRT, they call the garbage train a "regular work" train instead of a "pick-up".
aaaargh - different signals, different size cars, trains called by the wrong name. Can't those nitwits get anything right?
Not in our lifetimes TD. Lol.
At least the TA placed me in the IRT for the first year of my career. That way the worst was first, and everything else is like ez pickins.
IRT=IRritating Transit.
At least WE can count 1, 2, 3, 4. Not like that weird method you guys use - 1, 3, 4, 2. It's gonna drive me nuts when I come over next month.
And who took the Dispatcher's test and couldn't find the 5 that went into service, looped the Green and then laid-up back in the Bronx?
The original IRT track numbering system had a different, non-numerical system that may have been the reverse of the BMT & IND. You can see the original track numbers as the last digit on the survey numbers. I was surprised that on the Clark St. line, the uptown track was 2 while the downtown track is 1 (IIRC). That system was abandoned for the current where those tracks are 2 and 3. (Wonder why they didn't just adopt the 1-3-4-2 system so it could be uniform with the others).
>>>>>>>>At least WE can count 1, 2, 3, 4.
Riiiiiiight.
If you'ze IRT guys can count, then how come the tracks at Van Cortlandt are 1 & 4??? And White Plains is 2 & 3??? At least in the B division, it's 1 & 2.
Two tracks, one and two. Easier, innit?
Don't worry Alex, the insanity that you've been experiencing ends on July 22nd. :)
VC is two tracks - a downtown local (1 Track) and an uptown local (4 Track). White Plains is the same, except it has express tracks, which are 2 and 3, respectively.
Actually, the Crew Office called today. Seems I'm headed for your side of the tracks as of Monday.
At that location, 2 track can be utilized to turn north to 3 track. South of Mott interlocking, you can not proceed north from the Lex spur, as marker signals are present after clearing the switch. The train would have to continue to 138 G.C. before going back north. In other words, southbound trains can go North only from within the station limits. Similarly, Northbound trains can relay north of G.C. and turn south. That is a regular move for the "Regular works", the official name for the IRT Pickups, except Corona's, which is the 7 Ash. That train is the only one that is A/B divisional.
I know. The designation for pickups from 239 Yard is Regular Work #1 or Regular Work #2.
> South of Mott interlocking, you can not proceed north from the Lex spur, as marker signals are present after clearing the switch.
I'll have to dispute this, because the train came out of the spur, last night and went north to the end of Mott Avenue, and train operator changed ends. There are signals governing such a movement from within the spur.
But, under normal circumstances, that train should have relayed upstairs at 138th St middle. It looks like 138th St middle maybe out of commission as work lights have been set up there by the switches, between local and express tracks.
-Stef
Do I understand this correctly?
There was a work motor, R/134 at one end. Did the other end have a single or married pair of R/32s?
If the r/32 was a single , were the two motors MUed throught the refuse carries?
avid
It's a pair of R-32s.
A malfunction in a Jersey City PSE&G transformer affected PATH.
Story in Monday's online Jersey Journal
Perhaps the most interesting part of the whole story is the disclosure that Jersey City Police HQ has no emergency generator. Tsk. Tsk.
Trains to Scranton anticipated in 10 years.
Star-Ledger story
YAY! It will be a joy to ride this line again. I was on the last WB Phoebe Snow back when dinosaurs still walked. A train to Steamtown, YUM!
All right! I assume while the line is being built, it will open in sections?
And, what is this about impacting the Penn Station tunnels? If they have enough money to electrify that far out, then by the time the line is completed we should have two more Penn Station tunnels to play with (I believe the Access to the Region's Core "No Build" plan was rejected).
There's an article in this week's Times Newsweekly (formerly the Ridgewood Times), saying that the Montauk branch in Queens (at least a portion of it) was electrified for a time in the 1920's to 1940's. I always thought that it was never electrified.
Here's the link to the article. Montauk Branch
Electrification in Queens a "poor decision?" Oh well..
I don't think that it was a poor decision for Queens electrification, but the method. If they would have went with overhead catenary, then it would have been a wise decision (third rail and grade crossings do not mix).
There's an article in this week's Times Newsweekly (formerly the Ridgewood Times), saying that the Montauk branch in Queens (at least a portion of it) was electrified for a time in the 1920's to 1940's. I always thought that it was never electrified.
Here's the link to the article. Montauk Branch
Very puzzling. Nothing that I've ever read about the LIRR has ever said a thing about electrification on that line. Nor are there any remnants of substations along that line, at least as far as I can tell. And I can't quite grasp why the LIRR would have decided that electrification was a "poor idea."
I can think of two possibilities to explain the photo:
1) The LIRR considered electification, went so far as to install some third rail, but for financial or other reasons decided to drop the project before any electrics ever ran.
2) The weekly might be mistaken, and the picture was taken elsewhere. Note that there aren't a whole lot of background features that might be helpful in siting it.
[Very puzzling. Nothing that I've ever read about the LIRR has ever said a thing about electrification on that line.]
I did a little research and looked closely at some old track maps I have. It says "East Yard of Fresh Pond equipped with 3rd rail 1928-1936. No. 1 and 2 main tracks electrified East Yard switches to Interboro Parkway Crossover, 1928-1936"
I don't see any other mention of electrified tracks, so it looks like the only portion ever electrified was from Fresh Pond to a little east of Glendale.
I did a little research and looked closely at some old track maps I have. It says "East Yard of Fresh Pond equipped with 3rd rail 1928-1936. No. 1 and 2 main tracks electrified East Yard switches to Interboro Parkway Crossover, 1928-1936"
I don't see any other mention of electrified tracks, so it looks like the only portion ever electrified was from Fresh Pond to a little east of Glendale.
Still peculiar. It's hard to see what electrifying that short a stretch would've accomplished. Could it have served freights using the Bay Ridge line, which IIRC was electrified at the time?
I still suspect that the LIRR had wanted to electrify the entire line, but for one reason or another (quite possibly the Great Depression, as we're talking about 1936) couldn't see the plan through to completion.
The LIRR had some electric locomotives that used power form the third rail around that time, correct? Now with the law prohibiting steam locomotives in the city limits in force at the time, would it be possible to figure that the locomotives were used for freight handling on that line, at least until diesels became available and eliminated the need for the electrics?
That is correct. The LIRR at the time had DD1's and the small portion of electrification on the Montauk line between the old crossover at the Interborough (Jackie Robinson) Parkway and Fresh Pond yard was used in conjunction with the Rockaway line and the freight it served. The LIRR later switched to diesels and that killed the Montauk electrification. This information can be found in Change at Ozone Park by Herbert George. Excellent book! If my memory serves me correctly, the local frieght started out of Long Island City.
I hope to find that book, maybe at the next meeting of the Electric Railroaders Association? I looked through Steel Rails to the Sunrise by Ron Ziel, and did not find any reference to electrification of theMontauk Branch, but I will look again. One question - are any of the DD-1 electrics still preserved at a museum in the area? There was also a miniature version of the Pennsy GG-1 which worked the Bushwick line, and I did see pictures of it somehwere, but I fear that they too went out to see Mr. Naparano's place in New Jersey for a final stay.
There is a DD-1 pair (3936-3937) at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, across the road from the Strasburg Railroad, as well as B-1 5690, also used in PRR switching service. While not LIRR units per se, they had their counterparts on the LIRR.
There were no miniature versions of the GG-1; the only similar units were the lone R-1 and the P-5/P-5a modified units, which (like the mighty GG-1s) were PRR only. Not sure what unit you are referring to - anyone else have an idea?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Electrification a poor idea? If so - de-energize it but to remove it shows even poorer judgement.
http://www.oldnyc.com/rockaway/metmontauk/metmontauk3.html
It's mentioned in the the fifth paragraph.
Will the non-rush hour extension of the G change the new car assignments?
The last I heard the G would be 4 car R68's out of Coney but with them going out to Queens Nights and Weekends will anything be coming out of Jamica?? Shared yards like the F?
Just a thought.
Well, the V won't be running those times so I guess the cars will be from there.
That's what I was thinking!
I would imagine the Court Square runs would have the R68s while Forest Hills would be R46 from Jamacia, with a few exceptions due to the schedules. The R46 would be the same cars used on the V during the day.
I think it will be R-68s from CI at all times, with additional trains from Jamaica being R-46 to cover the additional ground. The R-46 sets would be influxed in such a way that they would all be grouped together (not hard to do when the yard is in the unserved area). Then, the R-46s would be taken out as they return to Forest Hills around the time of the cut back. Considering the overall travel time of the G and what appears to be a one hour grace period in the AM between G and V service, the moment Vs start running there will no longer be any R-46 Gs.
The trains would probably not be the same as the V, it takes too much time to cut and combine trains.
I doubt the G will remain fully assigned to Jamaica, there's no way one yard can handle 5 lines (and all but the F are exclusive to that yard, storage wise).
When I went to Union Station in D.C. for lunch this afternoon, I noticed that both Metroliner Train #105 and NortheastDirect Train #181 was late over an hour.
Then I saw a long train arriving at Union Station. HHP-8 664 was in front, but its pantograph was not raised. Then in the middle of the long train, AEM-7AC 946 was sandwiched between two sets of Amfleet cars. The first set of Amfleet cars ahead of 946 were Metroliner coaches. Clearly Metroliner #105 (headed by HHP-8 664) was broken down. Then Train #181 (headed by 946) came to rescue by combining these two trains to Washington. 946 was the only locomotive to supply the power.
Although this train was more than an hour late, consider that 946 is a newly remanufactured AEM-7AC and had to push 7 cars and pull 6 cars at the same time. I am very impressed with the performance of AEM-7AC.
Chaohwa
That is pretty good. 7,000 horses helped out.
Before the AC rebuild they were limited to 10 cars if you wanted any speed. Now I wonder with 13 cars how fast they went and was HEP effected after the lash up?
What kind of problems were causing havoc with the AEM-7's? This is news to me, as I figured that they were reliable replacements for the GG-1. Now it looks like this locomotive, built by General Motors, was having problems which should have foreshadowed the problems found on the new LIRR locomotives, also built by General Motors. When a large amount of money is invested in new equipment, isn't there supposed to be some kind of warranty period so that in case of poor performance, the equipment manufacturer must make necessary repairs or replacements of said equipment? Looks like the salesmen saw the people in procurement as easy pickings. Meantime the MNCR & AMTRAK General Electrics are looking good, at least for now. What problems are they having, or are they truly well built machines with a performance record that yells " I told you so "? Is General Motors legendary Electromotive Division really falling from past glory, and now turning out second rate products?
Clarification the original post said the HHL broke down and the rebuilt (age 15 or so) AEM7 rescued everyone.
So, the AEM7's ASSEMBLED by GM from an off the shelf (then)ASEA design have a reasonable track record.
The new HHL's from Bombardier are in 'shakedown' or 'teething' stage. We will see.
As to GE, remember two classes of not very sucessful units--P30CH's used on less facored routes scrapped early, and E60's the last are about to go--they were never able to run at high speed, otherwise ok.
Net result, EVERY vendor has lemons or at least temporary lemons. God knows the GG1's were bulletproof and magical, but they were the result of serious field work with prototypes before production.
Thanks. We appear to have the same first name and the same last initial, giving us the same initials - D.V. No, Rod Serling is not ghost writing anything here. You do raise a good point - the GG-1 was successful, because the homework was done. If that attention to detail is applied, instead of the take the money and run mentality of modern times, you will have good equipment costing less money for all of us.
AEM-7 #946 brings back some memories for me. When traveling from Wash. DC about 12 years ago on a Metroliner, we developed some power problems and the train laid down between Washington and Wilmington.
We were put off the train at Wilmington as it had to be taken out if service. We boarded the next Metroliner to New York just in time for the LIRR PM rush hour. Boy do I remember #946 !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm looking for a good jpg file on the older NYCTS logo (3/4 view subway car with city skyline in the background). I looking into producing a 1 5/8 inch coin (military challenge coin) if there is a demand for one (You a subtalker, show me the coin!).
Phil Hom
Southern Division BMT
Your wish is granted! (66K worth)
Long Live Jombee.
Do you have the 60s ta logo?
That ugly thing? Oh, OK, Here.
This genie work isn't all fun.
Paul, I don't agree with you on that one. The '60s ta logo was the best. Certainly 100x better than the present-day M.
You mean the present MTA pac-man. The M is gone.
I kind of like the current MTA symbol. It's kind of funky and sleek. I think the intention was to make the letters look like a train pulling out.
The pre-1994 "M" symbol was cool too. There were several versions. The best one was probably the one with both the two-tone "M" and the silver circle, like on the subway cars.
:-) Andrew
My favorite symbol is the "ta" that showed up originally on the R32, R33WF, R36, R38, R40 Slants.
Jose
The current MTA pac-man is better than the simple circle-M, or the two-tone blue, but the ta of the 60s wins HANDS DOWN. That 50s logo with the R-10 comes in a close second.
I guess it's a matter of taste, but IMnsHO, the current MTA
logo has all the charm of a cinderblock wall. It is poorly
proportioned, has no color, and no style. The white-on-blue
"M" (which appeared on letterhead but may not have appeared on
equipment) was also poor. The two-tone blue "M" was an OK
design and better than the recent two, but of course the late 1950s
T and A was the most imaginative design.
The white-on-blue "M" (which appeared on letterhead but may not have appeared on equipment) was also poor.
That version of the "M" symbol appeared on all Metro-North equipment (except a very few New Haven Line cars, which still had the two-tone "M") and eventually on most LIRR equipment too. It can still be found on many trains on both railroads which haven't yet been brought up to the current symbol.
:-) Andrew
Undoubtedly the symbol will disappear as equipment is brought in for maintenance, repainting etc.
"Metro-North Commuter Railroad" has begun to disappear from rolling stock.
Please note however: The legal names of the organizations have not changed. For legal purposes, the transit agency's members are still officially NYCTA, LIRR, Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority, SIRTOA, etc. Source of this info: MTA legal announcements and hearing-related publications.
MTA New York City Transit=New York City Transit Authority
MTA New York City Bus= (in most cases) NYCTA (see above) and (in some cases)Manhattan And Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority
MTA Staten Island Railway=Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority
MTA Long Island Bus=Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority
MTA Long Island Rail Road=The Long Island Rail Road Company
MTA Metro North Railroad=The Metro North Commuter Railroad Company
MTA Bridges and Tunnels=Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority
Any others
I believe there is a Queens Surface Operating Authority (I'm not talking about Queens Surface Corp, which is a private DOT contractor). Perhaps it's combined with Brooklyn...
I think the "Queens Surface Operating Authority" is something proposed, to replace the private companies now running some local routes in Queens and Broklyn.
:-) Andrew
No. I can recall an operating subsidiary which ran the TA buses in Queens (and maybe Brooklyn).
North Shore became the Queens BO Division when it went under.
BMT/B&QT bcame the Brooklyn BO Division.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the info.
The use of divisions is a more recent development. It wasn't until 1988 though that many of the old BMT routes that operated mainly in Queens got Q prefixes instead of B.
Thanks Pigs for the additional detail ... I was a little confused about the Q/B desgination changes on route that go between Brooklyn & Queens.
Mr t__:^)
Almost all the TA bus lines in Queens were BMT (or B&QT, of you insist), so these are also NYCTA.
Thanks
What about North Shore Bus Company?
I thought that the MTA did away with the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority (MABSTOA) a few years ago.
MABSTOA was created after a strike on the private bus lines in 1961 or 1962 and was kept separate (a) to avoid difficulties in merging the two seniority systems for bus operators, mechanics, etc. and (b) to keep alive the pretense that the MABSTOA lines, unlike the TA line, could be privatized again.
It took the MTA years to rationalize the numbering system. For example, the TA M15 ran on First and Second Avenues, while the MABSTOA 15 (no "M") ran on 23rd Street.
It took the MTA years to rationalize the numbering system. For example, the TA M15 ran on First and Second Avenues, while the MABSTOA 15 (no "M") ran on 23rd Street.
And then there was the 15 to Jackson Heights.
The changes occured in 1974
M1 Madison/Chambers: M22
M15 23rd Street: M26
M3 49/50th Streets: M27
M20 57th Street: M28
M7 65/66th Streets: M29
M6 72nd/57th Streets: M30
M11 York Avenue: M31
M15 Jackson Heights: M32
M101A: M102
TB Harlem-Wards Island: M34
TB Harlem-Astoria: M35
TB Bronx-Astoria: Bx21
What I'd like to know (really a BusTalk question) is why the M24, M25 and M33 were skipped completely.
MaBSTOA is still a seperate group in the TA & TWU. There have been proposals to merge many times.
Mr t__:^)
MTA = A nondescript, boring, inspecific, uninspiring, generic, "how many MTAs are there anyways?" name used many times to identify outfits that run transportation services.
-Robert King
I like to say that the TA no longer has any AUTHORITY .... in their name that is (NYCT vs. NYCTA). To be politically correct we should say that they are "doing business as" NYCT, but they are in fact still NYCTA.
Mr t__:^)
I guess it's a matter of taste, but IMnsHO, the current MTA
logo has all the charm of a cinderblock wall.
It's in poor company. The MTA can't seem to belt out anything the slightest bit creative. At least the current logo is an attempt at being imaginative. and since it's the MTA, they should go back to the 60s logo.
As for the two-tone blue, I can't imagine why anybody would like it. It is the most uncreative piece of crap I've ever seen.
I like it in part because it's a simple design, and of course I grew up with it.
I have to say that my favorite MTA logo is definitely the M in half-light blue, half-dark blue.
Even new stations still have that logo lit up at the entrances (Jamaica Center, Sutphin/Archer, Roosevelt Island etc.).
AmPig,
You'll have to specify which one:
R33/36 BLACK "T" RED "A"
R-32 & 38 BLUE "T" RED "A"
Don't know about the other class cars (R-10 teal/white) (R-40)
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I'll take the R32 blue and red, with thanks to Paul.
--Harry
Was there any difference between the two logos other than color?
"Was there any difference between the two logos other than color?"
No, the only difference was the color of the "T". Check the photos on this site, this was probably overlooked by many.
Bill "Newkirk"
Paul,
I told AmPig that the logo on the R33/36 Flushing cars had a black "T". Was that the time the logo used the black "T" ?
I don't remember seeing it on annual reports, maps etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't recall color variations with the "ta" logo. I guess I didn't pay enough attention.
The old NYCTA "map" logo had variations. I think I saw a version with R-1s and another with R-16s, but don't hold me to that.
There was definitely at least one version, possibly more, of the "map" TA logo with a bus on it, for posting on surface vehicles. I think this included one with a GM TDH4510 or 5106(?). I think I also saw one with the 6000 series Macks from 1956 or so.
In them days, they didn't seem to worry about trademark status with logos, since there were so many variations.
Here's the bus version of the logo, as seen on the side of TDH5106 #3100.
Thanks for that. The bus portrayed looks like a 5000-series Binghamliner.
When was that in use?
It still appears on the front of the R-38. It took me a while to figure out just what it was.
The train on the map logo? From inception in 1953.
From 1953 until when?
Someone posted in this thread that the "ta" logo appeared on the then-new R-38 cars. But, even today, the R-38 has the 1953 logo. What gives?
I think we're talking about two different things. The 1953 logo is the train coming out of an outline map of NYC with skeyscrapers at the top.
The R38s have the big -t- -a- in red and blue logo which was introduced probably 1963 or 1964 or around then.
No, look at the front of an R-38, near the flip-dot sign. That's the 1953 logo. (I'll try to capture it on film some day.) None of the current trains have the "ta" logo, AFAIK.
Oh, I see what you're talking about. That is the 1953 logo. They weren't delivered with that. They must have added it about the time they put in the dot-matrix thingy.
I wonder why they did that? That logo wasn't current or used, AFAIK, once they adopted the blue-red t-a.
The story I heard is that someone at the TA had a fit of nostalgia about the same time the R38's were GOH'd. As delivered,R38's had the "ta" logo on the sides next to the cab window.
The Port Authority announced on its website that the Newark Airport monorail would be offering ticketing and baggage handling at the NEC RailLink station for Amtrak and NJ Transit passengers. The monorail line is called Airtrain Newark.
The Van Wyck guideway is up from the Airport to just past 109 Ave. There's a gap from there to just south of Atlantic Ave, where the curve from the Van Wyck ROW to the LIRR ROW begins. There are two cars on the property, one of which is number 204. Both cars were testing in the yard this morning.
-Hank
Slowly but surely, it's getting there.
A few days ago on Channel 7 Eyewitness News, a news item about #9056 enroute to Washington DC showed the car being lowered onto grass.
I must assume it has arrived, can any SubTalkers in the DC area confirm this ? If so, what station on which Metro Line can I find the car ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Ask WMATAGMOAGH(a.k.a. Oren)
I wish I was still working downtown at the Dept Of Commerce. I'll take an extra hour for lunch on Thursday to go down to the mall (Smithsonian Station) and check it out. Folk Fest opens 27 June.
He has and I don't know where the car is.
In the future, I read SubTalk quite frequently. I am literate and will respond. There is no need to announce I know alot about WMATA.
WMATAGMOAGH,
Sorry if this sounds like I'm repeating myself. Just asking anyone from DC about this. Didn't hear from "Dupont Circle" yet.
I'm on vacation this week, if I had confirmation, I'd go down there to investigate. I appreciate any help on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is perfectly fine. I was commenting on Ry-Trans-it's announcement to ask me. I think it was obselete and I wish he wouldn't do it in the future because it forces me to answer where I may choose not to if I have very little time or something.
If I find anything out, I shall pass it on.
Well your the only subtaker in D.C. that I know.
It's probably at the Smithsonian station. Since it looks like it's at the mall.
CWalNYC
R33_Redbird_9056
(I must assume it has arrived, can any SubTalkers in the DC area confirm this ? If so, what station on which Metro Line can I find the car ? )
Bill, I assume you are joking here. I believe 9056 is going to be a static display for the Smithsonian Insititue, but it will be outside on the Great Lawn for awhile as part of some kind of Arts and Culture exhibit. So far as I can tell, the car will be sitting sans trucks and may infact not contain a complete interior (meaning it might be gutted and just a shell).
BMTman
Doug,
Perhaps this Arts and Culture exhibit is where #9056 is now. But I did see it on Ch.7 news where it was being lowered by crane onto grass. Didn't see any buildings to verify the location.
The news article in the Daily News with pic stated that #9056 was being retired. With underbody goodies being stripped so it can lay flat on the ground it looks as if #9056 was retired and will probably never return to NYC. It costs thousands to transport and hire a rigger to lift the old RedBird.
Wanna bet if it doesn't head out to a Delaware water grave it may have been purchased and will sit in someones back yard !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why didn't they pick a really rusted out R26 instead ?
One would venture a guess that 9056's companion, 9057 is sitting on a deadline at 207th St Yard awaiting scrapping, or in this case "Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea".
I can't imagine that R-33s would be retired from active duty this early.
-Stef
You are correct Stef!!! While working the 1 yesterday, I saw 9057 right next to 7936-37. One track over, there were a 10 car set of Pelham R29s. I sent you and a couple of people email about this.
Last week I drove past Stillwell Terminal to see the new scaffolding. Now I decided to ride there on the subway to check it out closer.
The twin entrance arcades had their swiss cheese ceilings removed. Although temporary, the arcades have a atrium effect. Stand there long enough, you can get a sunburn ! I remember back when I was a kid going to Coney Island seeing in the rafters a Civil Defense air raid sign. Probably left over from World War II.
The steelwork is still in place, but prabably not for long. You can see it from arrivind (D) or (F) trains. I could be wrong, but it appears that the famous BMT facade has been taken down. It seems that way from the angle you look up, you see plywood. The abandoned stores including Philips are still in place.
If you are documenting the Stillwell rebuild, get your shots before this scene changes !
Bill "Newkirk"
I just took a trip to CI last Friday, I shot some of the station and the area, so I got my 5 cents...
PS-For a large soda, fries and a hot dog at Nathans, it's now $5.45, DAMN!
"PS-For a large soda, fries and a hot dog at Nathans, it's now $5.45, DAMN!"
Clayton,
Is that the "combo" price ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Stillwell Avenue Terminal. I don't care what anyone says, it is my favorite stop on the New York Subway. There is always the anticipation of fun and joy when you disembark from that stop. Am I not right on that one?
Funny, sometimes one notices some little tzatzke for the
first time after probably seeing it every day for years.
On an R29, and presumably on a 26 or 28 as well, there is a little
receptacle with a hinged, spring-loaded cover. It is on the front
of the car, on the #2 (blind) end, a few feet below the cab window,
right next to the coil spring for the pantograph gate.
What is it for? Train Dude? (I know, it's A division, but work
with me here!) Was it always there or added in GOH?
???????????? We had similar on the R-44/R-46 before overhaul. On those cars it was a trainline jumper that gave you critical circuits in case ofa portion failure. I was never aware of anything similar on the R-29s
Drove from Brooklyn to a meeting in the Flushing Field office this morning. As usual, the entire traffic report was about New Jersey, with a little Long Island thrown in.
Meanwhile, resurfacing work had closed East New York Avenue westbound at the end of the Jackie Robinson. This was enough to gridlock the entire intersection -- it took me 15 minutes to get through. What I saw next was amazing. The Jackie Robinson was back bumper to bumper, and barely moving, along its entire length. As a result, the Grand Central was backed up from Kew Gardens Lord knows how are east.
Didn't merit a mention on Newsradio88 or 1010WINS.
There just isn't enough time to give traffic and transit conditions for the whole Metro Area in one report. Staten Island is NEVER mentioned. You wonder why some bright person doesn't figure out a way to broadcast sub-signals, so you can hear a traffic report just for the county you are in, and then the county where you will be going.
Same thing with transit. They never list all the G.O.s.
How about an all-traffic station?
I was just about to say the same thing.
Instead of Traffic and Transit together, Traffic and Transit FOREVER.
WCBS-AM (880khz) gives about the best traffic reports. They regularly include Staten Island and Brooklyn traffic delays. I don't know if an all traffic-transit-weather station would attract advertisers.
I don't know if an all traffic-transit-weather station would attract advertisers.
I'm sure they thought that when all-news radio was created.
And if we include weather: there's an all-weather TV station. A radio station wouldn't do any worse.
I'd listen to an all-traffic station, especially if it included
short talk radio pieces on transportation topics.
Larry is right. The shadow traffic reports, even on the two
all-news stations, have 60 seconds to condense 15 minutes
worth of information. The only time local streets are mentioned
are when they have that info from the police department, such
as a water main break or a street fair. But they could do a lot
more to improve accuracy even within their short spot.
Sure it would. I bet many people would abandon the all-news format and change to all-traffic. Maybe 5 minute newscasts could be done every 20-30 mintues.
(WCBS-AM (880khz) gives about the best traffic reports. They regularly include Staten Island and Brooklyn traffic delays.)
They must do it when I'm on the subway, because when I'm in a car I never hear about Staten Island. Moreover, you seldom hear reports about arterial streets, mostly highways, bridges and tunnels. Brooklyn for the most part doesn't have highways!
When I am in NYC, the reports I hear all follow the same format. Mention the NJ crossings, Gowanas, Belt Parkway, LIE, Grand Central Express Way, Brooklyn-Battery, Verazaono, and Queens-Midtown, not necessacarily in that order. Whatever time is left (often none) is dedicated to whatever else might be going on.
Not to mention that they almost never inform about subway and train delays.
Not to mention that they almost never inform about subway and train delays.
Which might to some extent result from the lack of timely information from the TA.
Yes, B-U-T they can get info on G.O.s off hours & week-ends that they COULD pass along.
Mr t__:^)
(Yes, B-U-T they can get info on G.O.s off hours & week-ends that they COULD pass along.)
Yep, all the GOs are posted. An all traffic station, or one that allows access to a specific broadcast for each county, could mention all G.O.s and construction, along with any other delays.
Let's see who can publicize an accurate list of GO's first: a radio station or the TA itself.
>>> An all traffic station, or one that allows access to a specific broadcast for each county, could mention all G.O.s and construction, along with any other delays. <<<
I doubt that there is much interest in doing so, since traffic radio is perceived as going to drivers in their cars, and therefore the stations want to present road information between their commercials rather than general transit information. Since the commercials are really the most important thing to them, they do not want to risk losing part of their target audience by giving them information which they perceive is off topic. If they have additional time they will fill it with more commercials or more road information.
Tom
Yes, but what about the family that wants to come in to the City for a show one evening, or just some shopping, etc. on the week-end & doesn't want to drive the car ?
As a railfan this info., or lack there of is very important if I'm meeting some friends at a particular time ... but then who cares about railfans ?
Mr t__:^)
>>> Yes, but what about the family that wants to come in to the City for a show one evening, or just some shopping, etc. on the week-end & doesn't want to drive the car ? <<<
You might have missed the thrust of my previous posting. They DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU.
They are not there to provide reports as a public service, but to sell advertising time, and therefore will cater to the largest segment of their market, which they see as those driving in their cars, not someone planning a trip on public transportation. It's not fair, but life rarely is.
Tom
I just hear no reported delays.
>>> WCBS-AM (880khz) gives about the best traffic reports. <<<
No matter how good the reports are, radio is not the proper technology for reporting traffic. My experience is that I will pull onto a limited access road, see stopped cars ahead, come to a stop, and then hear that the road is tied up with an accident. By then, I am unable to do anything but wait for the traffic to clear. This is a limitation of the serial nature of the information being given. Even if it is an all traffic station, a certain amount of time goes by between repetitions of the information for any given road, and the driver has to listen to a lot of extraneous information until the desired information is broadcast.
A better system would be an internet based, real time area map with routes marked in green, yellow and red depending on traffic conditions, and updated in real time. This would allow you to check just before leaving home or work to find the best route to your destination, (or decide to delay your trip, if possible). Within ten years new cars could be equipped to check this type of website for updates while traveling to be tied in with the GPS based local mapping now available in some rental cars.
Tom
A better system would be an internet based, real time area map with routes marked in green, yellow and red depending on traffic conditions, and updated in real time.
Or right now, you can see for yourself with NYCDOT's real-time cameras.
(A better system would be an internet based, real time area map with routes marked in green, yellow and red depending on traffic conditions, and updated in real time.
Or right now, you can see for yourself with NYCDOT's real-time cameras.)
Can't look at it in the car. My understanding was NYCDOT is going to put in sensors to detect EZ Pass tags, and calculate miles per hour based on cars passing the same point. But you'll need a safe in-car interface.
Of course the TA is trying to implement its PA/CIS system at the same time. We'll see who gets the technology first, drivers or straphangers.
>>> Can't look at it in the car. My understanding was NYCDOT is going to put in sensors to detect EZ Pass tags, and calculate miles per hour based on cars passing the same point <<<
Southern California already has sensors built into the pavement of the urban freeways which detect the quantity and speed of the traffic. The information goes into a Caltrans (the agency which maintains the freeways) control post. The control center has a big board displaying the freeways with colored lights controlled by the sensors. When an anomaly occurs, such as no cars passing over a sensor which was busy, an alarm goes off and the control center can view the area through remote cameras to find the cause and dispatch assistance to clear the problem. There are digital message boards along the freeways (like the one that spoke to Steve Martin in the 1991 movie "L.A. Story") which are supposed to relay road conditions to motorists, but they rarely work correctly.
At certain places like the entrance to the airport there are signs telling a motorist to tune to a certain frequency on their radios to get local traffic conditions. Freeways and expressways could have low power transmitters giving information to motorists about conditions for the next ten miles or so during heavy traffic conditions. The freeways now have emergency cellular phones at the sides. Those same poles could have low power transmitters which would broadcast on a frequency (each side of the highway would have its own frequency) which could be received on a car radio, providing updated local audio information.
With that sort of system, it would be possible to provide current information where it is needed without unduly distracting a driver.
Tom
Localized traffic reports are useless. I don't need to hear on the radio that I'm in a traffic jam -- presumably I've figured it out already.
I want to hear traffic reports for where I'm going, not where I am now. Since the radio doesn't know where I'm going, I'll settle for complete regionwide traffic reports.
A few years ago, on a drive from Illinois to New York, I turned on the radio on I-78 in Pennsylvania and learned of hour delays at the Holland Tunnel (on a Friday afternoon, yet). I still had time to divert to the GWB without much inconvenience, via I-287. If I had turned on the radio around Harrisburg, I could have saved a bit more time by dispensing with I-78 and taking I-81 straight to I-80. (And if I had picked up the traffic report in Columbus, I could have saved both time and $6.10 in Pennsylvania Turnpike tolls by taking I-71 to I-76 to I-80. It's a nicer drive, too. Then again, rarely do traffic jams last a full ten hours.)
metrocommute.com has this for the NYC region. It is very
difficult to read. Good for planning a trip at home before
one leaves, but I'd hate to think of people trying to read that
in their cars while driving!
>>> metrocommute.com has this for the NYC region <<<
I checked out that site and bookmarked it for further use. Thanks. I was struck by the difference between what was reported for the California cities and Houston and the East Coast. They must have better information from California, since Los Angeles included several hit and run intersection accidents, wind advisories, and road closures, but New York showed only one Expressway closure for maintenance. I cannot believe that New York has only one road closure for maintenance and no accidents in the whole metropolitan area even at 3:00 A.M.
Tom
sounds like a plan!!! First there was all-news radio....then all-sports radio....now the next revolution in modern media.....WTTR Traffic and Transit all the time!!!!
Hey they could have a live call-in version of SUBTALK!!!!
I'm there.
I have heard that WCBS requires a mention of all three major Hudson River crossings on each traffic report. That's true even though there may be no delays; therefore you'll sometimes hear "less than five minutes at the inbound Lincoln Tunnel," or words to that effect. I don't know if WINS has a similar policy, though I wouldn't be at all surprised if they do. Todd G. should be able to answer this.
At any rate, given the vast number of roadways and crossings in the New York area, it's impossible to cover everything in a single report, and that's especially true if all three crossings have to be mentioned each time. You'll often hear other "no delays" reports too. It would seem to me that a policy of "exception reporting" would be the most sensible use of time; in other words, the traffic reports (and transit too) would list only the known problems. If you don't hear a road or crossing mentioned, everything's fine, at least as far as the station knows at that point.
WCBS and WINS both use Shadow Traffic (a separate contract service) for their traffic reports. The reporters are different, and the ID is different (WCBS Traffic Center vs. Shadow Traffic), but it's all from the same place near the Meadowlands using the exact same sources of info.
Each radio station's management can ask Shadow to do different things, such as emphasize locations, etc., but I'm not privvy to that information. The major difference is that we (WCBS) have a traffic helicopter at our disposal during rush hours, with our own Tom Kaminski reporting. But that copter is also owned and operated by Shadow; when Tom is off, Shadow's Chris Maget usually fills in.
I tend to listen to CBS, then WINS, then switch to my LI FM station, but many times they miss a problem on my 20 mile journey. OR the problem is gone by the time I get there. What has helped is the LI station that uses cameras viewing a number of LI highways.
The other thing is that they seem to hold back of some of the information ... either due to time constraints OR they want you to listen to their commercials for 10 minutes.
Now if the latter and management is lurking, do listeners do CBS first, then WINS, then switch back, or stay on WINS until the "eights" come close ? As I've said, if everything sounds normal I goto FM about the time I'm passing Little Neck Bay, just in time to watch the runners.
Mr t__:^)
I have WINS, WBBR, and WCBS programmed into my car radio, and I generally cycle through all three.
RADIO SUCKS! Radio is pretty lousy, for news and music. With a few large companies owning the spectrum, what the listeners want to hear goes completely out the window.
However WKJY 98.3 on Long Island has some pretty good local traffic coverage, the music aint bad either. And they are owned by a smaller radio company. CBS/Infinity owns WCBS and WINS. Talk about no competition. Clear Channel owns pretty much everything on the NYC radio dial. Out in the 'burbs radio is a bit more bearable.
So what if Viacom/CBS/Infinity both own WCBS and WINS? GM owns Chevrolet, Buick, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Caddy, Pontiac, and GMC Truck. Why? Market segmentation.
This is a market economy. Viacom/CBS/Infinity own two of the three all news stations in NYC because that's how they can make the most money, by segmenting the market. Listeners choose with their dials, and advertisers choose with their checkbooks.
If you want interesting and innovative radio, tune your dial to the left (bottom) of the dial, for the non-commercial stations.
Now, back to transit?
I knew I'd hear from Todd sooner or later. Can you page back to the first post? The issue is that with one short report every ten minutes, most traffic and transit conditions are not reported. I mentioned a five mile standstill that didn't make the news.
I suggested some kind of device to allow a radio listener to select a county for traffic info. Someone else suggested an all traffic and transit station. Your thoughts?
In today's world, write the News Director of the station to make your suggestions. They DO listen... and pass them on to the traffic contractor. [For example, mentioning GOs during off-peak hours is a good idea, rather than "this road is OK and that road is OK."]
In tomorrow's world, digital radio will allow you do to exactly as you suggest -- focus in on only the region or road you're interested in. Within five years, I predict.
John, We have something else in common ... I thought I was the only person listening to that station ! Now admit it, it's not so much that the traffic reporting is better, it's that females do the traffic on that station ? This must be true as I can't remember when I've ever heard them give a report of delays on Long Island Bus !
Mr t__;-)
I used to be a traffic reporter in the San Francisco Area and there are several basic rules of the road.
1) The people who do the reports for WINS, WCBS, WABC, WFAN, KCBS, KNX etc, usually DO NOT work for the station itself. They are usually employed by contractors like Metro Networks. THey are often paid about 30 cents on the dollar of what someone working at the station would make and they do EVERYTHING when it comes to putting together those 90 second reports, every ten minutes. And they often do news or traffic, or weather and perhaps sports on another station with another name.
2) Companies like Metro are so afraid of their clients that the reports are often tailored to the commutes of radio station brass rather than listeners. If the news director of ACME radio AM lives in Scarsdale and comes to work at 8:30am, it's a good bet the traffic casts from 7:30-9:30 will lead with the Bruckner, Metro-North, the Bronx-River and Hutch Parkways along with the FDR Drive and the Triboro. Most traffic reporting companies fit on the radio station's totem pole somewhere between the janitorial service and the company that maintains the water cooler.
3) If it bleeds it leads... A gory accident on a secondary road will get more play than the daily, yet very consequential delay on the Gowanas. Also transit delays on non-commuter rail systems aren't "exciting enough". If people are taking the subway, they are listening to the radio, so why bother with them, that's the prevailing attitude.
Radio is such a lovely business.
3) If it bleeds it leads... A gory accident on a secondary road will get more play than the daily, yet very consequential delay on
the Gowanas. Also transit delays on non-commuter rail systems aren't "exciting enough". If people are taking the subway, they are listening to the radio, so why bother with them, that's the prevailing attitude.
Reporting major transit delays could be useful for people who haven't yet left for work or wherever, as they could plan alternate routes.
But usually, by the time that person gets to where the problem is, the problem is gone.
[But usually, by the time that person gets to where the problem is, the problem is gone.]
Very true for MOST problems, however in my 11 years at Columbia I would give a listen before I left so i could:
- Take the A/B/C/D vs. 1/9 ... just a little walking required or
- Take a downtown bus vs. 1/9
- Take LIRR at Atlantic Ave vs. Penn Station
Mr t__:^)
4) "News" by definition means that which is new. If the Gowanus is a bloody parking lot every weekday from 7:30 to 9:00am, and everyone who drives regularly knows it, congestion on the Gowanus is less of a story -- less deserving of valuable airtime -- than an unusually long delay due to a specific accident (and not just general congestion) on some other highway.
Really, just as the song says that one doesn't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing, I don't need a radio to tell me that the Kennedy Expressway or the Tri-State Tollway is going to be a parking lot at rush hour.
It seems that Shadow Traffic is at least a half an hour behind as far as reporting delays and accidents. Too many times I'm stopped and motionless on a major highway through at least three reports, and no mention is made of where I am- not that knowing what's causing the problem matters at that point. What bugs me is when I choose a road that's not mentioned to have a delay, and then get stuck.
The Whitestone Expressway runs behind my house, and many times it's completely socked in, especially towards the Bridge on Friday nights or after Met games, and away from the bridge before games. WINS often fails to mention this through multiple reports. Other times, they'll report congestion when traffic is moving freely.
Supposedly, toll bridge and tunnel delay information is conveyed by the agency, either MTA Bridges & Tunnels or the Port Authority. Some time ago, there was an alleged cover-up in which the duration of delays was severely underreported- ten minutes instead of the actual hour- so as to make the agency look more efficient than it was.
Other pet peeves I have about traffic reports is when the affected road is mentioned, but not the direction of the jam, or the location of the obstruction. Too often, exit NUMBERS are named, but not the NAME. Most local motorists don't know from exit numbers.
Those variable overhead message signs on the LIE and NSP aren't too useful. There's nothing like seeing stopped traffic stretched way out ahead of you while the sign reads "Obey Seat Belt Laws" or gives an 800 number for car pools. Until a few years ago, the message signifying no delays would read "Normal Traffic Conditions Ahead", which, of course, would often be displayed when traffic was stopped. Well, that IS normal. Now the sign reads "Traffic Moving Well Until Exit ###". Many times, it's NOT moving well at all.
Transit delays and GOs are seldom noted on WINS either. Many mornings I arrive at the Flushing subway terminal to find that service has been shut down or delayed for several hours. Nothing would be mentioned on the radio; if it had, I would've avoided the problem by driving to Forest Hills or Briarwood.
When GOs are mentioned, incorrect train lines or names of stations are often used.
Don't even get me started on the WEATHER reports-
Those variable overhead message signs on the LIE and NSP aren't too useful. There's nothing like seeing stopped traffic stretched way out ahead of you while the sign reads "Obey Seat Belt Laws" or gives an 800 number for car pools. Until a few years ago, the message signifying no delays would read "Normal Traffic Conditions Ahead", which, of course, would often be displayed when traffic was stopped. Well, that IS normal. Now the sign reads "Traffic Moving Well Until Exit ###". Many times, it's NOT moving well at all.
My impression has been that the VMS's on the Expressway have gotten more useful in the past several months. Information has been getting more timely and accurate, though obviously it's still far from perfect. I would imagine that they're tied into the cameras that cover most of the Expressway.
Camers on major highways may help, IF they give the input to the person on the mike right away.
[Don't even get me started on the WEATHER reports]
Well, I know of one reporter who I always enjoy listening to !
I will hell it out at home ... "do you know who's on the radio this AM ?". She'll reply ... "well let me guess, yes I think I know who it is".
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Mr. t ;-)
As a friend of mine says, "You get what you pay for!"
-Transit & Weather Together
P.S. By the way, if anyone is interested, there is a New York Radio Message Board.
Is this the piece you want us to read?
Every now and then there's a thread on the New York Radio Message Board that talks about traffic & transit reporting, and sometimes the actualy traffic reporters and/or their managers chime in.
Yeah, you'er right. The minute those "on-star" gadgets can give you up-to-the-minute routing information to avoid traffic, I'm buying one.
(Attn: pipe dream dept.)
They could even link the computers together so that the alternate routes wouldn't get to trafficy either.
These things should also be able to tell you where the cheapest tank of gas is, and how much it would cost to go there and back.
Sometimes it feels like these stations (WINS, WCBS-AM, Bloomberg)serve primarily New Jersey, and New York City is just the outlying area. You can't turn the radio on AM without hearing about the NJ-NY Hudson R. crossings, the Jersey Tpke, the Garden State. It is assumed when we just hear "Parkway" they mean the Garden State, even though there's like a thousand different parkways in NYC, Long Island, and the Hudson Valley. "Turnpike" always refers to the NJ Tpke (well, its only real competition near NYC is the Connecticut Tpke, and noone calls it that anymore.)
Then they might move on the major hwys in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. The "Gowanus-BQE combination" (really the same road) is usually there, and usually the Cross-Bronx and LIE in Queens. Then they'll move on to something else. You MIGHT hear about Nassau or Suffolk. You MIGHT hear about Westchester. You MIGHT hear about Connecticut, Rockland, Staten Island. But no one of those is definite in one particular report.
And forget about transit. Only once in a blue moon will you ever hear about any NYC subway delays on the radio.
Andrew
Time. Time. Time. There are VERY strict time constraints imposed by management at the radio stations for all air products (traffic, weather, sports, and news!). Most traffic reports are 45 seconds. My weather reports are usually 30-40 second, but can be much less.
Monday afternoon when we had a severe thunderstorm watch, I had to go through that, the 3 or 5-day forecast, current conditions, etc. all in 30-40 seconds -- which rapidly come to an end when the automated top- or bottom-of-the-hour jingles are played.
Okay, somebody explain this one.
As I said elsewhere in this thread, when I drive, I cycle through the three stations with regular traffic reports (WINS, WBBR, WCBS).
This afternoon, one (WINS, I think) claimed that the outbound lower level of the GWB was slow due to construction, one claimed that the outbound upper level of the GWB was slow due to construction, and one didn't mention any slowdowns on the GWB.
As a matter of fact, the upper level was slow (I could see it from the Henry Hudson Parkway) and the lower level was just fine (I drove it myself).
None of the traffic reports noticed that, due to a lane closure on the ramp from the HHP to the Trans-Manhattan Expressway, traffic on that ramp was backed up onto the parkway itself. Anyone who tried the obvious move to bypass both jams -- go past the GWB/TME exit, exit at Riverside, turn right onto the GWB/TME ramp, and slide all the way to the right to get to the lower level -- had to cut across this line.
Somebody earlier mentioned finding maps and model trains on Ebay.
can you give me an idea of what subjects you key in to find them.
Try a search with "subway" or "Subway map". avoid plural since most people are selling one. As for model trains, just list the brand you are interested in. Of course, searches with names like Atlas and Weaver way have to be refined.
Since e-bay is being talked about, I'd like to shamelessly plug my items that I am selling.
I've put up for bid all of the following items on one page, meaning that one single bid is for all the items. They are:
1970, 1978 and 2000 London Underground Maps.
1971 London Underground Victoria Line Extension Guide from Victoria to Brixton.
1999 London Underground Jubilee Line Extension guide.
London Underground Line pins. Winner chooses one of the following lines:
Northern, Piccadilly, District, Metropolitan, Hammersmith, Jubilee, East London, Northern and Central lines.
Interested? Click here for the e-bay page
I'm also selling a London Underground Tube Map Umbrella. I'll put that one up in a little while.
Thanks. Spam over.
ZMAN,
So you're the one posting that British stuff !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, lets see. My handle here is Zman179.
My handle on e-bay is.......um........Zman179.
Yup, dat's me.
When unification occured, what car numbering conflicts were there, if any?
Ok I'm curious. they've had R4 on up through r40, 42,44, and 46then we jump up to R62 and beyond, NO such thing as an model in the R50's range??? why was that??? just curious.
Most R numbers from 1 to 160 are used, with the exception to R-39 (which was cancelled). Look at the complete R contract list.
Crane cars OC150-280 R20, 35, 45, 53, 61, 73, 79, 102, 113
Dump cars OD437-439 R103
Flat cars OF114-227, 500-29, R20, 48, 49A/B, 51A/B, 72, 101,
600-24 R141
Hopper cars OH280-97, 310-19 R80, 116
Loco, Electric OEL 01-10 R77E
Loco, Diesel O0010-11, 50-82, R37, 41, 43
N1-2, OL883-909 R47, 52, 77, 120
Rail Grinder RG001,24 R89
Reach cars OP6835-7629 R31
Pump car OPC01-03 R65
Refuse coll. EP001-18 R127, 134
Refuse flat cars ORF01-27 R58
Signal supply OOS01-02 R74
Tank cars OT204-206 R66
Track geometry R59
Vacuum train VT101-105 R137
Weld cars OW301-02 R56
I was wondering if anyone out there could confirm for me which end of the Roosevelt Ave IND station links up to the unused "Second-System" station? The south end of the station mezzanine seems to slope upwards, and there are steel gates blocking off some areas. Is this it? The "Abandoned/Unused Stations" site mentions a passageway past a transit police station, but I can't find that at all...Is it gone, or am I missing something?
Thanks!!
The passageway is at the north (east) end of the station. There's a door where formerly there used to be a gate.
If you were to get off of the IND heading into Manhattan, walking on the mezzanine "back towards Elmhurst Avenue", you would eventually see the area that is mentioned. The Transit Police station has not been in the Roosevelt Avenue station for at least 5 years now, and even when it was there, it was sort of hidden away.
I will be once again traveling to the windy apple for another field trip. I will be arriving at Newark on the 10:01 train and then taking PATH to WTC. From WTC it will be an E train to W. 4th and then a Q to c. Stillwell where a Nathan's lunch will be had. From there the itinary is open except we will finish up by taking the E train to Jamacia Centre to hop an LIAR train to New York Pig Station followed by a PATH train ride back to NWK. We hope to leave NYC by 5PM.
rode it on a saturday night heading towards wakefield from times square 42nd. street. as i got on it said the next stop is 50th street. i thought that i was high or something. but i wasn't. the next it said 59th st. columbus circle. next it said 66th st. lincoln center. i was impressed that it can do that but do know it was a bitch to override. however i was thinking that because the 2 was supposed to be doing local service at night, the automated system has ease of capability without complicated programming. but i don't know that for sure. What do you guys think?
I was looking and the Announcements setup screen on one that was at 207 yard during the layoff of them. They are promramed with both local and express setup. You can also remove stations from the announcements list if the train is going to skip that stop of some reason. (Exp. If the startion is closed for some sort of upgrades.)
Robert
Thats correct. All you basically got to do is program it to 2: Midnghts and it will annouce the local stops. When they first came out, this feature was not in use. Same thing with skip stations, the screen will allow to "delete" stations to be skipped.
Also even if the train is programmed for the reguler route which is Express in Manhattan you can still get the train to say the Local stops because the local stops say Skipped so all you have to do is activate them and it will stay the local stops.
On the R142A's on the No.6 Line the computer can be programmed to go as far as Bowling Green. Now all of the route request say Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge or Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge. So what you have to do is look at the stops and you will see Fulton St,Wall St, and Bowling Green under skipped.
This Weekend will be interesting if they run the R142A's on the No.6 Line. There will be split service
Pelham Bay to 125 and 125 to Brooklyn Bridge.
To get the Computer together you have to skip all stops not in being used. If a crew does not know how to do it the right way which there are a few that don't you hear alot of Buhre Ave's and Canal Street's at 125 Street. Also if the crew before didn't do the right thing it really would mess you up as well because once a stop is skipped it stays skipped until you manually acticate it again.
This explains a lot. My conductor on the 142 running on Saturday Night couldn't reset his signage after the reroute at South Ferry. He did it with difficuly, and then the signage got reset for reasons I can't understand. We continued into the Bronx with no announcements. Does the PA work on these cars? C/R attempted announcements but was inaudible.
Are the problems with the 142 simply a C/R's or T/O's being unfamiliar with the car's features?
-Stef
The PA does work but not all of them do. Let me Explain each cab on a R142 had 3 PA Buttons and Push to Talk buttons. You have one PA on the main console and 1 by each window. The PA button by the Windows I find don't work that often but the PA on the Main Console works Loud and Clear. Also a Mistake which I made the first time I had to make a PA Announcement on a R142 is you have to do two thing to be heard on the PA. First you have to press the PA Button now thats simple you will also hear DING when its pressed but the mistake is you also have to push the "Push to talk" button or known as the PTT Button. My first time on the train I forgot what PTT was so without pressing that PTT Button your just talking to yourself. I also one time got the PA and the PEI mixed up. The PEl is the Passenger Emergency Intercom. But now Since I had the train about 11 times I got my bugs all worked out. Ofcause my farther helped me out the most he showed me the all the tricks to the computer. Ofcause he knows more then alot of crews when it comes to the R142A because he ran it 9 times a week during the 30 day test with the T.S.S's and workers from Kawaski. Also theres another thing about the PA. Most our use to the older Equipment where you talk into the 1 mic. On the R142 you have 5 mics in the cab so all you really have to do is just talk.
Are the problems with the 142 simply a C/R's or T/O's being unfamiliar with the car's features?
Yes and No
No, Because some of the problems the crew can't really do anything like Stuck Brakes,Brake Pipe ruptures, Door Problems, and a new problem the Computer freezing up makeing it hard to program. I had a train 7241-7250 the computer keeped saying ST Lawance Ave. I had to make my own annoucments and cut the Announcements off.
Yes, the Operating preceedures are new to alot of the crews. Some T/O's have not mastered the Braking. Some take way too much brake. Some crews mostly on the C/R's side don't know how to program the computer and to be honest after my one full day of R142 School car I didn't know as well. I mean they had 5 C/R's watch a T.S.S program the thing. They didn't want us to touch the thing. So now we are on our own trying to figure the thing out. The Only thing I learned was how to Key open a crew door, Reset a the Emergency Brake and push the Closing doors button. The rest I learn learned on my own by expermenting with the computer and talking to the employee's that where working with the R142'S.
Also they really did not teach the Conductors about brake downs they say the computer will tell me what to do.
Another thing about the R142 . If the Computer goes out of nuts you have to re-program it you must be in the station with the doors opened for the software to take. I find the Kawaski is more forgiving then the Bombardier.
just that question in thought. since it was a premiere american rolling stock company and it did represent america's hard working people, despite how it is too expensive to produce products in this country, do you think Budd Co. could make a comeback to the Rail Car industry? the company does still exist except it makes air bags and seat belt pretensioners and other safety gadgets for automobiles. based on anyones knowledge of the company, could they come back? they were so good in that market except for the lirr, mnrr emu's that they built.
They have a website:
buddcompany.com
They're owned by a German company.
There owned by Thyssen Krupp.
Budd always been an auto supply company first. The rail car body business was secondary.
Phil Hom
Virginia Div BMT
One of my pipe dreams is seeing the former Northern Pacific/later BN backshop at Livingston MT building transit/commuter/light rail/ Amtrak or whatever cars. Since the 1987 MRL takeover of the line here the main shop became another corporate holding in the Washington Companies but kept separate from the railroad itself ..will give the reasons if anyone asks....corporate America ideas basically.
It is now called Livingston Rebuild Center and what else, has been thru a management change and down to 37 employees. Taken over by Spanish Talgo Corp I'm hoping it will bring some real jobs to the area as tourism doesn't fit that bill.
Spoke to Warren McGee, at 86 he's still Mr. Northern Pacific to me a few days ago and we discussed a new Amtrak route (hope it happens) from Denver to Spokane thru Livingston, Bozeman, etc. Amtrak being short of cars the thought has come up build them at LRC..and why not?I know its a long shot but I'd love to see subway cars heading for NYC with the nameplate...made in Livingston, Montana.
Much like Kawasaki bringing jobs to Yonkers with the railcar plant maybe the Spaniards will bring LRC to what it could be. AMERICAN INDUSTRIES SEEM ONLY INTERESTED IN DOWNSIZING AND SELLING OUT.
MK redux? MK rebuilt for NY and built new for Chicago in Boise Idaho and also used the ex EL Hornell Shops and later for political purposes a facility in Pittsburg Ca. (BART) Whether LRC will do more projects is an interesting question. What seems to be the pattern is that NOONE has enough steady business to keep a plant/workers in the passenger car building trade. So instead, as each contract happens, the assembly is part of the bidding process(local content can win a bid) When MK built the bilevel 'California' cars the bodies were very much BUDD weldups done in Brazil IIRC shipped up here and finished in state. But of course those orders also took down the company.
Very enlightening....especially the MK reminder. I had a lot of hope for that operation when it started up. Danke schoen.
I did a studio class here at the University of Pennsylvania, studying City Planning. Our studio site was in the Allegheny West neighborhood of Philadelphia, and includes the Budd plant here. They only operate in one of the many buildings that they own, with the others just abandoned and lying dormant. We constantly heard of the possibility of the plant closing sometime within the next 3 years.
I'm not really sure what's going on by the cops have had the intersection up the block roped off for many hours now. This is at the intersection where Otto Road meets Central Ave and turns off up to Myrtle, where there's the Bay Ridge branch overpass. I saw a LIRR emergency truck drive by a few hours ago, this truck is now up on the tracks. There was a NY&A switcher idling across the street and moving back and forth every now and then. They shut down the switcher a little while ago. There's another loco on the scene right now.. I can't really see with all the trees in the way but I think it's one of the GP's.
Does anyone know what's going on? I don't have a scanner unfortunately.
Shawn.
An accident on the tracks?!?
-Stef
After two sightings of a MTA Police car, I believe there was some kind of accident. I still don't know what's going on though. I'm sure if someone died it will be on the news or in print tomorrow.
Shawn.
Ok.. my brother heard this story about what's going on. It turns out that one of the NY&A locos died right on the overpass. Due to fear that the overpass structure might collapse, the police have the intersection roped off. I dunno where what I saw before fit into all of this. Apparently they are still working on the problem right now.
So, I guess this is no big deal.
Shawn.
It could turn out to be a 'big deal' for NY&A customers who might be inconvenienced by the breakdown.
I'm surprised the LIRR Police would rope off the street under the overpass thinking that it might collapse. That makes me think that those bridges are in need of upgrading....hmmmm.
BMTman
I was told a derailment occurred at that spot by a NYPD officer who stopped by Metropolitan Ave terminal.
I'll give NY&A a buzz later today.
BMTman
Around 10:30 am Tues morning a LIRR (not an NYA train) derailed 6 cars of its 30 car consist. These were loaded ballast cars for the mainline project. As the train was crossing over from 5 main to the wye lead it apparently jumped the rail. The crossover is right above Fresh Pond road, that is why the street was closed to traffic. The crew were unaware that the train was on the ground and kept moving at the time. The tracks were all torn up and one car is tipped over on its side right on the FP road overpass. It was close to falling of the bridge. That would explain police presence. The locos you saw were 3 LIRR engines. NYA is now blocked from interchanging with CSX CP and NYCH until the mess is cleaned up and tracks replaced. It will probably be finished by Saturday. Also 3 TA diesels from Linden yard were called over to Fresh Pond to assist with the clean up effort. they are the only engines on the west end of the wreck, all NYA power is trapped in the yard, rendering it useless for the time being.
Thanks for the update, slayer.
BMTman
On Sunday, I noticed a full length R 32 on the layup(northbound express track)at Union Tpke, which was marked G on every car.
I have never seen an R 32 on the G line. Could there be change I am unaware of, or did someone just play with some of the signs?
Presently, G service requires 12 6-car R-46 consists. Because of the way that the R-46 is configured, there is a maximum of 14 6-car units available because there are only 14 2-car units. Should, at any time, more than 2 of those 2 car units be out of service - for any reason, the G line is suplimented with R-32s. Due to operational considerations only 10-car R-32s can be used in place of 6-car R-46 trains. You cannot use 8 R-46s or 8 R-32s..........TD
You can use 8 car R-46s, I have seen them on several occasions. At Continental there is usually an announcement (for the benefit of the crew) about it. Someone else here explained that they come off the R or something like that.
Also, fhen the F is rerouted via crosstown, they don't shorten it. There is no reason why they can't run 8 car R-46s on the G.
I think I understand why no 8 car R-32s.
I think I understand why no 8 car R-32s.
OK. Why?
:-) Andrew
Sometimes, I do see a G train with eight R46 cars. I found it surprising, I was moving back on one G train, expected to be in the last car of the train. As I was moving down a platform going from one A car (at CR position) to another A car, I saw four cars instead of two. It was a northbound train, BTW.
Can you elaborate on "operational considerations"
Betcha it has to do with it beging an unnecessary pain in the ass to break up a normally 10-car consist of R-32's for "temporary" duty on the crosstown line. After only a short while, the trainset will likely soon return to E or N service anyway, requiring 10 cars.
I've always wanted to ride R-32's on the 'G' to look out the front window. I'd like to see the track configurations, switches, and signals. Whenever I have ridden R-32's signed-up for the crosstown line, I'm usually on the consist for only a couple stops, and never in the first car. Since it's normally R-46's, and the T/O always covers what little view you might have with newspaper or cardboard, you never get the chance during "normal" car assignments.
So why can't they break up another 4-car set of R46's into 2 2-car sets so they don't have to go thru this R32 swap and fussing with roll signs ?
R46s in 4-car sets are in a A-B-B-A manner. The B cars don't have cabs.
There is one A-B set of R-46s, though. I've seen it, although I imagine that Jamaica holds on to it and only puts it into service when necessary.
Dan
It's used on the G daily (# 6206-6207).
It costs several thousand dollars to relink cars. The 14 AA sets (and one A-B set) were linked with this in mind, there are no odd numbered cars after 6207, and 6207 is linked to 6206 only.
You mean DElink cars. And what does it cost to do nothing, i.e. run full length consists on the G, and take time out to swap trains off other routes ?
Apart from the other reasons mentioned above, I'm gonna say that it's kind of a waste. If you link two "A" cars together, you're displacing two "B" cars which now can't be used at all.
:-) Andrew
As ordered, there were 754 R46 cars. 2 have been scrapped due to a collison several years ago, one A car and one B car. This explains the A-B combo of 6206/07. If it were not for this, you would have another ABBA set. However, you would still have more AA sets, since when the cars were ordered, a few more A cars were ordered than B cars. This worked out well since the JFK Exp, when served by the R 46, was a 3 car train: A-B-A. Originally, the cars were not linked. If one car was bad ordered, the one car could be drilled out.
Dude, are there similar reasons why we're seeing many more R-46's, and less R-32's, in 'E' service these days?
It is because some R32 are being installed with new floors.
Chaohwa
Yeah, I did hear that. Forgot for the moment.
But after my post it occurred to me that in addition to more R-46's in 'E' service, I have also seen more R-32's in 'R' service, which would seem like simply a switch of equipment between the 2 lines. R-32's in 'R' service, however, was not as unusual as R-46's in 'E' service.
R-32's on the 'R' had been fun a few weekends ago, since you could look out the front window while riding through the new 63rd Street connector.
Something that has only happened to me once in five years was riding an R-46 on the 'N' in Queens. That was probably a Saturday in 1997 or so. Never since.
When R line replaces E line to Jamaica Center during G.O.'s, you have a very good chance to see a bunch of R32s on the R line.
Chaohwa
Something that has only happened to me once in five years was riding an R-46 on the 'N' in Queens. That was probably a Saturday in 1997 or so. Never since.
Once my southbound (F) train was rerouted onto Broadway via the 60th St tunnel, and it then became an (N), presumably so it could go to Coney Island and thus get back on track.
:-) Andrew
Yup it seems 1 out of every 3 E's lately is an R46. There seems to be many more R32's running on the R lately. Maybe this has something to do with the weekend G.O.'s in which R replaces E in Queens.
Doesn't it have something to do with the C/R boards?
[On Sunday I saw a full-length R32 on the layup (northbound express track) at Union Turnpike, which was marked G in every car....Could there be a change I am unaware of, or did someone just play with some of the signs?]
I saw that train, too - it would take a lot of playing to get all 10 cars correctly signed for the G! :-)
Actually, a 10-car set of R32's does find its way to the G once in a while; I seem to remember riding one last week.
Me and one there T/O had to resign an R train into an G train while the train was in the relay tracks. When it pulled into 71 street the people waiting for the G were a little confused about it and so was the T/O and C/R.
Robert
You see R32s on the (G) from time to time. It's not that unusaul. Now, anything whatsoever that's not an R46 on the (F), ever, that would be extraordinary.
I have a doohicky little question: If they run an R32 on the (G) when it terminates at Court Square, what is the rollsign reading for the north terminal? Is it:
Court Square
Queens
OR
Court Square
Long Island City
OR JUST
Court Square
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
It reads Court Square, Queens.
Thanks!
:-) Andrew
I've seen an R32 on the F a little less than a year ago. I forgot the occasion.
Interesting. In the two years I've been commuting on the (F), I'v never, ever seen anything but an R46. Of course, if it were ever going to be something else in this era, it would almost certainly be an R32.
These days it's hard to even imagine something with a side rollsign set to (F).
Hmmm. Let's have fun with this:
R32/38:
179th St
Jamaica
----------------
Stillwell Ave
Coney Island
---------------------------
(F) Queens Blvd/6th Ave/Culver
R40/R42
(F) 179th St-Jamaica
------------------------
......Coney Island
R68 (old)
(F) 179th St
......Jamaica
----------------
......Stillwell Ave
......Coney Island
R68 (new)
(F) Jamaica
......179th St
------------------------
......Coney Island
Is that right? I wish they showed the word "Queens" more often.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, I wish there was something other than R46's on the F. R32's, R40's, ANYTHING but an R46. That's one of the reasons I take the E over the F when it comes to the Queens Blvd line.
I agree. It's not that there's anything really wrong with the R46 (though I think the look is highly overrated--holy Bad Sevnenties, Batman!), it's just that a guy can get pretty sick of them. Wouldn't it funky if just for one day there was a slant R40 on the route for a change?
(BTW Never gonna happen in this day and age. But we could conceivably get the odd R32 once in a blue moon.)
:-) Andrew
Remember, the slants debuted on the F (and E) in 1968. So did the R-38s.
Here you go:
179 St Jamaica StreetConey IslandWash Hts/8th Av/Fulton
179 St, Jamaica Coney Island
179th Street
Queens Coney Island
Brooklyn
Jamaica, Queens
179th Street Coney Island
(Are Rmarerro's black backgrounded bullet gif's down?)
The third one appeared on the R-46's when they first appeared in the mid '70s. The F was then encased in pink then, IIRC, or grey.
Magenta.
You rock!!!!!
:-) Andrew
The F is the "Wash Hts/8th Av/Fulton" line?
Well that would be interesting, if only it crossed at Jay to the Culver line. Run the V through Rutgers maybe??? Interesting.
Major oops!
What happened is that when I first wrote the HTML codes, I e-mailed them to myself and saved it in the online filing cabinet, and I had certain routes filled in. Now when I post those tables, I open up my file cabinet and copy and paste the codes, and make the necessary changes (For instance, I use the same table for both the R-68A and the R-42, and when I post a 42, I simply change "cellspacing" to 0, which eliminates the spaces between the sign fields).
So the R-32 sign was "set" for E, and while I changed the destinations and img values for "F", I missed the routing.
The last different cars I ever remember on the "F" was the R-32's in '95, but very seldom. Before that, about 1987, the R-68's did trial runs. Since I was little, this is the rolling stock I remember on the "F":
pre 1975- R1-9, and R-40's (the r-44's were phased in), and an occasional R-42.
later '70's: R-44, 46, seldom R-32-38.
1980's to the present: Predominantly R-46's, and for a brief period in 1980, R-10's or 32's.
I NEVER recall seeing any R 27-30's EVER on the "F" . I DO remember seeing them once on a "D" in 1981. 8 out of the 10 cars were marked "N" Continental Av -Whitehall Street!!
Tony
When I was a conductor (11/79 to 2/81), the R46 truck crisis was underway. On weekends, the M lay-ups from the Brighton line were used in F service. They were left as 8 car consists. I operated them several times as a conductor.
R32's ran on the F in 1990-91, and for a time in 1994. A few R68's even "ran" on the F in the autumn of 1987. Other than that, it's been all R46 for the past 20 years now.
I have seen R32's on the G on several occasions. It's rare, but it has happened.
What do the different symbols inder some car #'s mean? I know a red diamond means that a car has been fitted with 'Door Enablers'. But one time I saw a double set of Orange Bars under a car #. And on a different train I noticed a orange bar with a circle in the center. I think the diffeent colors mean what yard a certain car belongs to, but I hear that they are doing away with that. So I was just curious as to what colors and or shapes mean what
On the IRT, they indicate which yard a subway car comes from. IIRC, it goes as follows:
Red: 240th Street (1 and 9 lines)
Orange: Jerome (4 line)
Black: 239th Street (2 and 5 lines)
Green: Unionport/E 180 (5 line)
Blue: Livonia/148th Street (3 line)
Yellow: Westchester (6 line)
Black or Yellow with Purple diamond: Corona (7 line)
I don't know what it means in the B division, though.
In the B division it simply indicates which cars or a certain fleet have undergone certain modifications. We don't have to color-code our cars to know who they belong to.
The former CNW Gallery cars will be in service starting Monday 18 June 2001. It will be on the Manassas Line. Four cars out of 19 will be in service.
Phil Hom
Virginia Div - BMT
The TA formed a special investigations unit last year to root out people scamming the agency. The most egregious one found so far went out on partial disability in 1979, murdered a man in 1980, and was convicted in 1982. His payments were stopped in April.
Daily News story
And where did all that money go to? Someone was asleep at the switch big time on this one. That clown just bought himself a few more years in the pen, since the parole board will definitely turn thumbs down on him once they find out about it. He got 17 1/2 to life for the original crime, and this little caper should net him another 15.
He has 19 years in already. He might get out, but he will be too old to enjoy anything.
I awoke this morning to find a fully loaded soutbound platform at Jackson Av. There was a #2 Train the station that had gone out of service (doors were closed) and was tying up the local service which sent both the 2s and 5s down the middle. But getting to my story, I observed the train from front to back, and noticed two cars were not on the platform. The entire train was in the station but the last two cars were outside of platform limits. Whoa! It was a 12 Car #2 Train!
The train was double ended and ran light to an unknown location. The train returned northbound rather quickly, which leads me to believe it was turned at 149th St and the Concourse. I didn't see how they could do this since the train wouldn't be able to get a lineup going northbound at the 10 Car Marker. Somehow they managed to get things going rather quickly.
The only question I have is did someone in the yard make a mistake and let this 12 car train out? Who's going to be held responsible for this if the C/R was opening his doors and two cars were out of the station?
-Stef
More than one person made a mistake to let a 12 car #2 train out to the road. I count at least two, possibly three TOs (one who took it from the yard to the station, one who took it down the road, and possibly another who OKed it in the yard), a CR or two (the road CR, and the one who took it out of the yard), a Yard Disp and two TDs (one at White Plains and one at E.180 St).
Of course, I am forced to wonder how the hell a 12 car train made it from the yard up to 241 St, since it should have overhung the switches coming off the lead (to the best of my knowledge, only 5 trains go into service from 238 St and avoid this problem); as well as having 2 cars out of the station at White Plains. This is the second story of over-length trains leaving yards I've this week. The other was a 13 car #7 overhanging the yard lead switch at 111 St.
Are you sure there wasn't an earlier incident that might have resulted in a train being cut apart on the road, resulting in an 8 car set and two that needed to be pushed (or pulled)? I'd hate to think there are that many idiots all working at the same time on the same line.
As for the quick turn-around, since Mott was expecting it, it came into the station, punched for 7thAve and moved until the Tower Operator said it was clear of the switch N of Mott (it might actually be clear of the interlocking while in the station. I've never made this move.). Then it dumped, charged at the other end, and moved out NB on 2 Track, crossing over to 3 Track north of the station and heading back to 239 Yard.
I'm positive there were no other trains in the area. The only thing behind this train was an R-142 in the next station. It was at Prospect Av.
The only thing I ask is what if the train din't go into service at 241 St? The 241 St dispatcher could have noticed a problem right then and there. It may have come out at 238th St.
-Stef
To explain a large portion of the errors, could they have rushed to put it in at 238th simply because there was a large delay in service?
Possible. Someone in the Yard wasn't counting up cars though......
-Stef
Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!
Thats the way it is on paper but not alway. I had a Job on the No.2 Line where the whole crew does the put in out of 239YD and you bring it in to the station at 241 St. for the 7:40 out of 241 St. but what really happens is you keep you call letters as a 7:40 out of 241 street but start out of 238 Street.
When a T/O prpares a train for service, is one of the items on the "checklist" a count of the cars in the consist?
--Mark
Shouldn't the the guy in the tower be doing that? I recall someone watching cars moving around Coney Island Yard from Tower B with binoculars to make sure everything is up to snuff.
-Stef
The guy in Tower B with the binocs is the Yard Master. While he does bear some responsibility, it will definitely land on the train crews that OKed and moved the overlength train.
In most yards the T/O is given a put-in sheet for his or her train with all the car numbers listed. Any discrepancies should be brought to the yard dispatcher immediately. It is the yard dispatchers duty to watch the trains leave his area counting cars and eyeing car numbers. In some places this is impossible to do. Yards that have the put-in sheets are usually the yards that this has happened to before. The yard dispatcher has some explaining to do.
Lefferts (on the A line with R10's) one evening the disp. told me I was getting an 8 car train. Made 8 car stops all the way to Franklin, leaving Franklin the conductor passed me NINE short on the buzzer. Well at Franklin you'd stop tight to the south end anyway but I couldn't help but wonder about some of the stops along the elevated. My insides dropped when I got that signal and pictured people taking the elevator [shaft] to Liberty Ave on the outer end of the line. Suppose the C/R should have counted cars...or was it the disp. or someone up the line who was guilty?
Amazingly enough, this happened after an incident earlier in the morning where a TO split a switch in the yard. Everyone at White Plains must have really been on edge this morning.
The 12 car train did indeed come out of the yard and go into service at 238 St, making it all the way to Jackson before a passenger notified the crew (want to bet Jackson was his stop?)
Not good is all I can say. Did I say the train was double ended for movement back to 239th St Yard? I'd guess a TSS was called down to help get this train away.
-Stef
In the midst of a service tie-up this morning, an R-142 Train was stuck behind the 12 Car Deuce at Prospect Av. 6576-85 have entered service on the 2 before other earlier deliveres. Cars were carrying passengers, but at least two of the cars appeared to be having malfunction with the exterior digital signage.
Other R-142s were routed down Track M.
-Stef
Anyone going Rail fanning next week?
Having ridden the 'N' in Queens for years now, and having many times looked out at the normally empty, weeded, western portion of Sunnyside Yard (the part between Northern Blvd. and the former PRR maintenance buildings), I'm wondering:
1) Does this half of the yard see any use at all these days?
2) Was it ever electrified with overhead catenary?
This yard seems very dead these days with the growth of weeds. If I'm correct, this may be a new yard for the Transit Authority.
There are two bellmouths on new 63rd St. connector just for that purpose.
Bill "Newkirk"
Those bellmouths were supposed to be for the connection to the Montauk line, but Donald Manes saw to it that the plan was killed. Now he is long gone, yet the property remains. What is planned for the area? There is plenty of vacant land adjacent to the ROW of the LIRR just outside of Long Island City station on the Montauk branch, but no activity seems to be going on. Anybody out there know of anything? By the way, what would be the most reasonable connection, if there could be one, allowing for direct service by subway to LaGuardia Airport? This is something that everyone could use, except maybe a taxi fleet owner with a vested interest in keeping mass transit out of the area. Where would be the best place to build such a line? Which route should it take? This is just something to consider.
[By the way, what would be the most reasonable connection, if there could be one, allowing for direct service by subway to LaGuardia Airport?]
Extend the N a few blocks ... after you deal with the NIMBYs along this route.
Mr t__:^)
How about the bellmouths from the 63rd Tunnel to and through the Sunny Side wastelands, following the Amtrack ROW to the area near the BQE, then over the Grand Central into LGA with a Double Helix. The top for departures and the lower for arrivals. The train arrives and discharges at the two or three terminals. Goes around and down, now its empty and picks up passengers. On the far side of the helix, a layup track and switches to allow for flexibility. A wye at the approach to the Hellgate, to allow for MTANorth service as well. Curves and structures built to M-1,M-3,M-7 standards, to allow for equipment usage. Overhead pans down, third rail in service.
avid.
Interesting idea, but I bet you any amount of cash that the suit and tie crowd at MTA headquarters will look for ways to kill that. The shortsightedness of those characters is beyond belief. I like your ideas - keep them coming.
to paint Graffiti on the boxcars.
Most of the times kids get out there and vandalize the boxcars with graffiti. No police out there so they can stretch out and take their time to do a nice mural like they could in the good old days of graffiti on the system. They would set up and take hours to paint the trains back in the 70's, spend all night tagging. Today they can't on the system so they tag up freight cars.
You got it my man, been doing that more often now, Met up with some writers at the good ole Amphitheater in East River Park, goin down to sunnyside tonight, after those bloody state exams, school comes first. Wake up and smell the Misery, No Graffiti No Peace.
Let me answer the 2 questions backwords:
2)yes, so far as i know it had overhead power. If ai recall right there are still some rusty poles for it down there. There is also an abandoned building under thompson av. bridge, which mighta been a substation for it.
1)The yard is currently a shadow of it's former self. Up until a few years ago the LIRR's freight div. used it to store freight cars, before that, when there was still a good amount of freight on LI, the yard was used to classify long trains in from conrail. as a kid i used to watch the trains come in - 4 C420's dragging about 100 cars was the norm. they'ed even hump it out using a small hump across from the Amtrak engine terminal. the yard was pretty full up back then, around 1980...
freight pretty much died there when the NYA took over for the LIRR's freight, consolidating just about all there operations to fresh pond jct. All that is left is the engine house where they perform minor work on their MP15s and GPs... this is on the western end (west of queens blvd brdige). any major work goes to morris park.
the shop is suppose to go over to fresh pond, and the old yard at blissville rebuilt, in order to compensate for the LIRR taking it back. they're suppose to use it for MU storage when the connection to GCT is built (apparently in the next 10 years). (blissville is currently filled with weeds, trees, and a homeless encampment)
The only part that's currently active is where the engine house is, and the tracks southwest to the LIC team track near the 'phun phactory', though the rest of the yard (east of queens blvd) has on occasion been used by the LIRR to store old cars heading for the scrapper (even an FA, once...). Currently there's an old lirr alcohol car down there (with at least one homeless guy living in it), and 2 old tanker cars - all waiting the torch. this end of the yard (beyond queens blvd, heading east) was recently blocked in a bit by the queens blvd. bridge rebuilding - so them cars might be there for some time to come. (they're visable from the 7, but not the N).
further to the east of this main area is honeywell av birdge, currently being rebuilt, the old hump, and a branch that until the late 80's went over to a pasta factory that received a few cars per day around 48th and northern blvd - which is now a home depo (that doesn't recieve by rail). There were even 2 street crossings - at 43rd. st. behind pathmark, and another at 48th st.
I hope that covers it...
Some questions were prompted upon reading the recent post about NJ's purchase of the Lackawana Cutoff regarding the possibilities for short-distance inter-city rail in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
What we know:
A line exists between Hoboken and Scranton -- the Cutoff. It's not tracked all the way, but it's there, and used to serve passengers.
A line exists between Quakertown and Philadelphia, and plans are on the drawing board for service to extend there.
A line exists between Reading and Philadelphia, which will become the SVM if the various governments and Norfolk Southern can work out their differences, and if funding can be obtained.
What I want to know:
Between what cities is the "West Trenton" line I keep hearing may be re-habbed for passenger service?
Is there a line to Philipsburg, NJ? Is it an exension of the NJT's Raritan Valley Line, and is there a bridge across the Delaware which would allow service to continue through Easton, Bethlehem, and Allentown?
Is there a line between Allentown and Philadelphia which could be used for passenger rail?
I'm looking for past use, present use and condition, and ideas about the possibile future use by passengers. I just want to know if the physical lines are there, not about how there's no interest or money for such projects.
If the lines aren't there, or aren't any longer, why is that?
Which historic railroad owned the lines (i.e., not Norfolk Southern, but PRR, or not Conrail, but Erie Lackawana, etc.)?
Finally, are there any remnants of train stations in any of the cities I mentioned which are not now served by passenger rail?
Again, I'm talking "possible" not "feasible" or "probable."
I hope you get all the requested information.
The west Trenton line is the route of the Reading's Wall Street and Crusader, which is now SEPTA's West Trenton line from Center City to West Trenton and CSX to Bound Brook.
The Reading also ran to Allentown and Bethlehem and that is the track that would be used were service to resume.
The Central RR of New Jersey (and suc CRRof Pa) in turn controlled for decades by the Reading Co. which in turn was for many years by the Baltimore & Ohio, formed an alternative route between Phl and Jersey City. The West Trenton Line is the ex Reading route which meets the ex CNJ at Bound Brook NJ. Reading also had lines to Quakertown, Allentown, Bethlehem from Philly. n CNJ --what now is the Raritan line of NJT once went to Allentown, Bethlehem, etc. There are websites with far more data on this history.
This website has info on the Lackawanna Cutoff:
www.pennjerseyrail.org
and here is another one:
www.njskylands.com/hscutoff.htm
and lastly this one:
http://users.netreach.net/jprock/silent.htm
With regard to:
>> Is there a line to Philipsburg, NJ? Is it an exension of the NJT's Raritan Valley Line, and is there a bridge across the Delaware which would allow service to continue through Easton, Bethlehem, and Allentown? <<
NJ Transit ended scheduled service to Phillipsburg (on the Raritan Valley Line, formerly CNJ) in 1982. The right of way between High Bridge & Phillipsburg is intact (it parallels the Lehigh Valley ROW), save for a bridge in Alpha Twp. removed some years back. If NJT was to re-construct that bridge & rehab the CNJ ROW between High Bridge & P'burg, service to Phillipsburg could resume. To my knowledge, the spans for the various old RRs (the Lehigh Valley, CNJ, and PRR all had trackage through P'burg) across the Delaware are still intact. What condition they're in is anybody's guess. The Lehigh Vallley bridge and line is still in use for freight, as far as I know (don't know who got that portion of Conrail).
At P'burg both CNJ and LV spans are still there and NS is using the CNJ span (despite using the LV RoW on either side). Also at P'burg there is the preserved PU tower and NJ is considering the site for the Railroad Museum of New Jersey.
Between what cities is the "West Trenton" line I keep hearing may be re-habbed for passenger service?
It runs between CP-TRENT (formerly TRENT) a.k.a. the SEPTA West Trenton Station and layup yard and CP-BOUND BROOK where along the CSX (formerly CR, nee-Reading) Trenton Line. CP-BOUND BROOK is where the FRD line to Philly intersected with the CNJ (an RGD subisdury) Main Line from Jersey City to Scranton PA. The Reading this line to assess NYC area passenger markets and NYC area ports (specificly Port Reading on the Aurther Kill). The CSX Trenton line is heavily used and is CSX's ONLY link b/t NYC and the rest of it's southern system (that's why CSX was so hot to buy Conrail). However, the line is single tracked w/ only one 6000 foot CS which presents a real capacity problem. Getting the state on board to double track the line would be a good carrot for CSX to allow commuter rail on the line.
Is there a line to Philipsburg, NJ?
There are two lines. The NS (formerly CD, nee-LV) Lehigh Line and the former CNJ Main Line.
Is it an exension of the NJT's Raritan Valley Line,
The CNJ line (now an abandonned RoW w/ some limited trackage) is what the NJT Raritan Valley Line run on until High Bridge NJ. The RoW is mostly intact and service could be restored with the laying of new track and the rebuilding of some bridges.
and is there a bridge across the Delaware which would allow service to continue through Easton, Bethlehem, and Allentown?
There are two bridges (former CNJ and LV) with a capacity of 4 tracks with only one track currently being realized. The LV bridge is slightly old and may need some rehab work and on the PA side the CNJ line is carried over the Lehigh River on a steel viaduct that might also need some rehab.
Is there a line between Allentown and Philadelphia which could be used for passenger rail?
Yes, the former Reading Allentown branch goes from Lansdale to Bethelhem and is mostly owned by SEPTA (they do not own the part that is near Bethelhem as it has freight customers.) The line is out of service, but the tracks are mostly intact. The tracks would all need to be rehabbed, but the RoW is two tracks wide. There is one tunnel in the middle of the line. The line terminates on the NS Lehigh Line at the former LV Bethelhem station. Needless to say, the station has seen better days.
Hi guys, I'm going to make a weekend trip to NYC in July and want to devote a whole day to riding the subway. I'm fascinated with them so the day should be a blast.
Can some of you please give me advice on what routes to take, what stations to explore, basically give me a e-tour guide. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
J.R.
Assuming you are starting from Midtown Manhattan.........
Take the D to Yankee Stadium; switch to the 4; take the 4 to Atlantic Avenue; switch to the N; take the N to Stillwell; switch to the D; take the D to Prospect Park; switch to shuttle; take the shuttle to Franklin; switch to the A; take the A to Broad Channel; switch to the shuttle; take the shuttle to Rockaway Park, return to Broad Channel, return to the A to East New York; take the J to Jamaica, switch to the E; take the E to Roosevelt Av, switch to the 7; take the 7 back to Midtown.
Now, why....
The run on the D from 59 St to 125 St is the best express run in the system. The 4 is a good express run. The LIRR is visible from the Atlantic Av station; the N is an express underground, a ride along the railroad partially outdoors, and Stillwell Av is the best terminal. The Brighton D/Franklin shuttle re-traces an old railroad line, is outdoors and scenic. You must make the trip to Rockaway, it must be seen to be believed. The Jamaica line combines an old el style with two of the newest stations in the system. The E has a good express run through the heart of Queens; the inbound view of Manhattan from the 7 is unparalleled.
Have fun.
Thank you so much, I'll do it!
Your welcome.
Remember to ride in the front car standing at the railfan window if possible. Let me also add that the station at which I have you picking up the J is one of the most interesting in the system, with the L intersecting and connecting tracks between the two lines and the adjoining yard.
Can you do all that in one day? Whew!
One little warning: By the end of July, the (D) will no longer be running on the Brighton line. It will be served only by local and express versions of the (Q).
I might have done the whole (7) myself.
:-) Andrew
The A doesn't stop at Franklin -- he'll need to take the C one stop and transfer upstairs. And why are you sending him on the Rock Park shuttle when Far Rock will do?
Here are my systemwide must-sees, in simple list (not itinerary) form (except where indicated, either direction will do):
The 2/3 express from 96th to Park Place -- preferably southbound. This is most exciting on a 2 with Redbird cars, but a 3 with a railfan window will suffice. The express just flies. I've included one stop past the end of the express run for contrast -- after all that high-speed running, the tracks dip down, curve sharply to the left, and stop again.
The A/D between 59th and 125th. It's slower than it should be but you can imagine what it must have been like when the subways were still fast. Some of the cars on the A -- the older ones with ripples on the exterior walls -- have railfan windows.
The A out to Far Rockaway. (Don't bother with the Lefferts branch.) If you happen to be flying into JFK, you can hit this easily: take the shuttle bus to Howard Beach and ride the A away from Manhattan (i.e., don't follow the crowds).
The D or F entering Coney Island. The D is a more interesting ride, overall. Neither has railfan windows. The D's express counterpart, the Q, does have railfan windows, and it's a nice ride, but unfortunately it terminates a few stops before Coney Island. (Note: If you'll be here after July 22, some route designations will be different. In particular, the D will be the Q-in-a-circle and the Q -- currently in a circle -- will be a Q-in-a-diamond. Don't get confused!)
The J/Z between Jamaica Center and Broad (that's the entire route). (Queens-bound is more interesting in Manhattan; Manhattan-bound is more interesting in Brooklyn. Take your pick.) This starts out, in Jamaica, underground, in two of the newest stations in the system. It then hops onto an old el for a few stops, rounds two sharp curves, and continues on an even older el. A few stops later is the massive Eastern Parkway (Broadway Junction) station. After another stretch of el, the train crosses the Williamsburg Bridge and immediately goes underground. In the first station, Essex Street, the remnants of an old underground trolley terminal are still visible. There are four tracks through the Bowery and Canal Street, but the center two tracks terminate at Canal; the TA is planning on reconfiguring the tracks here. Chambers is a huge beast, once clearly the heart of the BMT, now rotting into oblivion. Fulton is one of the few two-track, bilevel stations in the system. Broad is unique on this line for being a plain, run-of-the-mill station with wall platforms.
The L east of Broadway Junction. Notice the extraneous trackwork at Atlantic; it's on its way down. E. 105th is the site of the last remaining grade crossing on the subway system.
The 7 and the N approaching Manhattan from Queens are exciting.
The 125th Street station on the 1/9 is elevated even though its neighbors are underground. Ride to see why.
The Smith-9th Streets station on the F/G is the highest in the system, with an excellent view of lower Manhattan.
This may take two days to complete.
What are the two newer stations in the J/Z line you are referring to.
Thanks again, JR
What are the two newer stations in the J/Z line you are referring to.
Just in case Davide doesn't see this post for a while, the stations are Sutphin Blvd. and Parsons/Archer.
Thanks Peter
And if I do see this post, those aren't the stations?!
>>> Take the D to Yankee Stadium; switch to the 4 <<<
You really have to approach Yankee Stadium from the 4 going uptown. The view of the stadium coming out of the tunnel must be seen if you are any kind of baseball fan..
>>> the inbound view of Manhattan from the 7 is unparalleled. <<<
I used to ride that line regularly, always at the railfan window, and I did not remember any particularly good view of Manhattan. I have also recently watched Salaam's video's of the 7 and did not see it there either. The far better view is from Smith-9th Street.
Also some travel to the oldest parts of the system such as Chambers Street, and a trip around the City Hall loop is a must. I would also suggest stopping at South Ferry to experience the moving platform gap fillers, and to see the inner loop station.
Tom
I guess I ride that by staying on a 6 while changing from Southbound to Northbound. I read they didnt let passengers rige the loop. Has that changed?
I guess I ride that by staying on a 6 while changing from Southbound to Northbound. I read they didnt let passengers rige the loop. Has that changed?
It has changed. The loop is now considered mainline track and passengers are once again permitted to ride it. Unfortunately, many train crews aren't aware of the change and order people to leave.
I didn't know that changed. I still say last stop all off. There is a risk if you stay on the train and that is sometime the train goes in service at 14 Street instead of Brooklyn Bridge. Also there is one train that gets layed up at the Brooklyn Bridge spur. Ofcause I know most railfans don't mind going for a little unschuduled Express ride. Right?
Once I saw a 6 train of R142A's south of Bklyn Br (I was @ Fulton). I took it to BG, and went around to catch it on the uptown side, but the doors didn't open.
When A No.6 get rerouted to Bowling Green the train is not suppose to go in service until it reaches Brooklyn Bridge in most cases.
"When A No.6 get rerouted to Bowling Green the train is not suppose to go in service until it reaches Brooklyn Bridge in most cases."
How often does #6 trains get rerouted to Bowling Green ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, I got on one at Fulton Street!
A No.6 would get rerouted to Brooklyn Bridge if there is a big delay in the No.4 or 5 Service.
I mean Bowling Green.
Right.
Bulll, I asked a Conductor and he said "you wanna see the olde city hall eh?, sure stay on" this was on an R-142
I know that I tried to hop on the train at Brooklyn Bridge and they said no passengers, then repeated it, then closed the doors, then said ok you guys can get off now. At which time we got off.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Addl. input ... don''t forget to leave the system at Coney Island.
Nathan's & may other eateries are accross the street, plus you have the "Wonder Wheel", the "Cyclone" and a bumper car activity ... all of which are on rails or operate under electric power. You could even make the short walk to the beach & get your toes wet or take home some Coney Island sand. Enjoy
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, and to add to Thurston's 'Coney Island To-Do List' is the Carousel next to the Stillwell Terminal. It is beautifully restored and even operates via an old Westinghouse trolley car controller. I believe the other older rides like the 'Wonder Wheel' have the same controller.
BMTman
Yes, and you can still go for the Brass Ring ! On our recent trip there with Sea Beach Fred. BMT-Jeff was one of the group to enjoy that ride & got a hand full of those rings.
My point was that NYC has so much marvelous stuff to see, so why not take a break while you're enjoying the ride and partake of some of the adventures on the surface, e.g. if you're uptown on the 1/9 stop for lunch at Tom's aka Singfield Resturant at 112th & Broadway OR take a walk down Times Square & buy a camera or watch from one of those stores that is always going out of business. How about lunch at Mars 2112 at 50th & Broadway ?
Mr t__:^)
In the opening of the Welcome Back Kotter TV show, you see a montage
of New York in the 70's. What subway elevated trains were in that
intro?
I honestly don't remember, but if I had to guess I would say the West End. The show was based on Gabe Kaplan's childhood in the Bensonhurst/Coney Island area.
How about the the GM "Fishbowl" bus at the end of the show with school
kids boarding. I forgot the route it was on, I'll have to try to catch the show again for another look at it.
Chuck Greene
Train was the West End, the bus (under El structure) was the now defunct B34.
B34 13th Avenue, 86th Street
B1 now runs that route.
The bus was not under the el structure, and it was signed up for Flatbush Avenue -- appeared to be a B-9 somewhere on 60th Street, probably 20th Avenue (the B-9 didn't go to Kings Plaza until much later).
David
The B9 did travel to Riis Park during that time frame, along Flatbush Avenue.
But I am certain I recall a bus under the el, I will watch the Mtero channels re-runs to see
The B9 did travel to Riis Park during that time frame, along Flatbush Avenue.
But I am certain I recall a bus under the el, I will watch the Metro channels re-runs to see.
This is turning into a BusTalk item, but...
Welcome Back Kotter premiered in 1975, and the shot of the bus was in the closing credits as far back as the premiere, so the shot couldn't have been taken any later than mid-1975. The B-9 only went to Riis Park in the summer (so what would all those schoolkids be doing in the shot?), and not for very many years, and that was more like circa 1980, anyway.
David
Would make sense for it to be a B9 on 60th Street. Notice the girls w/ parochial school uniforms getting on, possibly in front of Bishop Kearney HS, 60th St. & Bay Pkway.
But I also remember a sequence shot of a GMC Fishbowl under the El structure at a corner.
What time is the show aired on cable?
It was the West End.
Those "El" shots were the B West End (graffitti'd R-38's) around 79th Street (shot with the High School in the back). That was back in the days when the "B" was the only line on the West End, and (except for rush hours), the "B" was a 6 Ave LOCAL!! All "B"'s during peak hours were 8-car consists of R-38's or R-42's (usually the higher numbered ones 4800-4950 with the huge black roll sign in the front!!). Do you all remember those days when the "AA" "CC" "GG" and ALL BMT LINES had a maximum of 8 cars (excluding the lines that used the R-44 or 46's)?? I think that it was in 1987 that the "B" "N" "R" and "Q" trains went up to 10 cars). During the midday and weekends, the "B" trains were only 4 cars long. And look at the "B" train TODAY--well, we only have 1 more month before it becomes THE CONCOURSE SHORT LINE LOCAL!!! WHAT A WASTE!!!!!
Correct. When the first GOH R4) slants came on line in November 1987, the B"B were assigned 10 cars, then about a year later, the N and R and the rest of the southern division (except the M).
Wow, I never realized all those Brooklyn lines had only short trains until then. It must have only been the Brighton D that had 10 cars upon the opening of Chrystie St. I guess this would also explain why the other southern div. lines never ran R-44/46. I guess the N then (when moved to Jamaica) must have been using the 2 car R-46 sunits for 6 car trains that the G is using now.
N trains had 4-car trains of R-46s in the late 70s, at least during off-peak hours.
BTW, those are R-32s in the opening titles of Kotter. In later seasons, footage of a B train of R-42s was used in the closing credits.
E-1----I left New York in 1954 (I'm 60) so I'm one of the old warhorses on this site. Back then the West End was not the B but the #3 line, and if memory serves me correctly it was an express in certain parts of Manhattan. I don't know for sure because when I had to change trains in Times Square for a trip to Grandma's or Coney Island you can guess for yourself which train I took.
when I had to change trains in Times Square for a trip to Grandma's or Coney Island you can guess for yourself which train I took.
Would that be the Culver? The Brighton? Oh wait! You took a bus, right?
;-D Andrew
Oh you kid!!!!! Or is is smartass? I liked your humor because you turned it into a joke. Always a laugh is good. But the bus? Yikes, I hate buses.
The West End Express always ran express along Broadway right up until Chrystie St. By the mid-60s, it skipped DeKalb Ave. during rush hours; prior to the TA's cutbacks in Southern Division service it skipped DeKalb and Myrtle Aves. 24/7.
FWIW, the Sea Beach was spared of cutbacks for the most part prior to Chrystie St.
While riding an R142 downtown on the 2 this morning, we remained stopped with the doors open at Chambers Street for a longer-than usual period of time. A mechanical announcement was made indicating that the train was "being held by a station dispatcher" and that we should "be patient." The electronic roll sign also made the same announcement.
After about 2 minutes, during which the announcement was repeated approximately 4 times, the doors closed and the train began to move toward Park Place, the next stop. However, the mechanical voice and the electronic sign continued to advise us that the dispatcher was holding the train, even as we were in the tunnel between stations and moving rapidly toward Park Place. No announcement was made about the closing doors or the next stop being Park Place before we left Chambers Street. The announcements didn't stop until we were physically in the Park Place station.
Of course, its a minor thing but its irksome. This wouldn't have happened with a live conductor making announcements. The electronic announcements are an annoyance and unnecessary.
Give me a good old R-26 with a human conductor any day of the week.
However, the mechanical voice and the electronic sign continued to advise us that the dispatcher was holding the train, even as we were in the tunnel between stations and moving rapidly toward Park Place.
Moving rapidly from Chambers Street to Park Place?! Sounds scary.
Give me a good old R-26 with a human conductor any day of the week.
Same here, for reasons other than the announcements.
>Give me a good old R-26.....
......with a human conductor....
I agree with this post.
I agree with this post.
Wow! big surprise!
Crazy idiot #1: Bring back the good old days of outhouses, candles and horse-and-buggies!
Crazy idiot #2: I am going to vandalize this board with verbal graffiti too.
There are human conductors on the R142, they are just not making any anooucements. What probably happen was that the coductor press the "we are being held in the station..." message right before he got the signal to close down. So the annoucement was made.
Also there is a 40 Second wait from the time the button is pressed until the announcement is made.
15 Year - 5 Billion Dollar Plan, which does the following.
Rehabilitates all decripte stations on all subway, adds elevators to Grand Central Station, Times Sqaure, Rockerfeller Center, 42 Street (6th Avenue) Add's elevator to 7 lines part of Times Square.
Details of Rebailitation:
Complete Rehabilitaion of Times Square Station.
Complete Rivial and Rehab of J,M,Z, stations in manhattan.
Re-use lower level of City Hall Station (N,R,Q).
Completely Rehab the Atlantic Avenue Station.
Complete Rehab of Stations along the Concourse Lines. (205 St, Bedford Park Boulevard, Kingsbridge Road, Fordham Road, 174-175 St, 170 St, 167 St, 155 St (including removing abandoned staircases)
Shutdown of 205 Street / 182-283 Street Station for complete make over, then reopen. Rehab of entire J,M,Z, station in brooklyn.
Removing the Old Tower at Myrtle Avenue and old Elevated Structure.
Rehabilitaing All stations along Jerome Avenue Except 161 Street.
Rehabing All stations along White Plans Road Except Intervale Avenue + 3rd Avenue.
Tell me what you think, I have more ideas, do you think the plan could work + what the effect of such a plan would have on the system.
Some of that station rehab work you refer to looks like it is being done as part of the Americans with Disabilities Act compliance rehab. The rest looks good, if more service can result from it. We shall see.
Give me 15 years and $5 Billion and I'll produce such a beautiful website for rapid transit that all the folks here will spend so much time enjoying it, you won't care if any of this stuff is built.
Heck, I'll do it in five years for just $one billion.
That's my last offer.
Much of this will make the lines not only accessible to the disabled, but will also improve safety at the stations and improve their appearance. This is helpful to the surrounding neighborhoods.
"Complete Rehabilitaion of Times Square Station."
The Times Square station complex is being rehabbed as we speak.
Bill "Newkirk"
See how fast my plan gets into action! LOL I'm soooo good with polotics.
Get your mind out of Manhattan and the Bronx and put it Queens and Brooklyn where it belongs. The Sea Beach and West End and Culver need work and nothing is being done there.
Fred's right; the Queens IND has several stations in very sorry shape. Case in point: I'd give the 74th/Broadway/Roosevelt complex my vote for worst smelling station. It's also disgusting-looking. It needs a rennovation extremely badly. Queens Plaza isn't very pretty either. The other stations seem to be all right for the most part, some have been rehabbed recently. There are definitely some Sea Beach stations that could use it as well, New Utrecht comes to mind.
Dan
Danilm, you're so right. When I stayed at the Pan-American Inn during my 1999 trip I took the G to the Roosevelt Station for a transfer to the #7 and Shea Stadium. The station was a turkish steam bath and the smell was awful. I even asked why it smelled so bad, and one guy actually told me I didn't want to know. I still don't, except for the fact that th at station and 95th Street on the R line are the steamiest stations around. But at least 95th Street doesn't knock you out from the offensive smell.
And that was once; depending on what time I'm leaving and if the buses are running on schedule, I could be in there 10 times in one week.
The smell is caused by the dead bodies of people who passed out and got hit by trains because of the smell. Circular logic!
Dan
Danilm, you're so right. When I stayed at the Pan-American Inn during my 1999 trip I took the G to the Roosevelt Station for a transfer to the #7 and Shea Stadium. The station was a turkish steam bath and the smell was awful. I even asked why it smelled so bad, and one guy actually told me I didn't want to know. I still don't, except for the fact that th at station and 95th Street on the R line are the steamiest stations around. But at least 95th Street doesn't knock you out from the offensive smell.
The Sea Beach ... need[s] work and nothing is being done there.
Sure there is... it's being encouraged to decay to the point where folks will be happy when it's turned into a landfill... save lots of transportation costs that way... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Smartass. I guess my Civil War hero, General Sherman, missed getting all of the Southern wiseguys on his trip through your neighborhood in 1865.
No offense meant Chris, but since your plan does nothing to refurbish the rundown stations on the Sea Beach line from 8th Avenue to 86th Street, I reject your plan out of hand. Now get back to work and be sure to put my train in your plans or your name is mud.
My plan:
Complete renovation of the Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th Street stations to the stellar look that they had in 1996.
Install brand new rotted tiles to replace the old rotted tiles at 21 St-Van Alst.
Re-introduce K train service. Starts at Jamaica Center on the J line, rns via the J making all local stops to Essex Street, via the Chrystie Street cut, via 6th Avenue and 63rd Street, operate local from 36 Street to Continental Av and then via the E line to Parsons/Archer. Line will use R32 and R40/42 equipment. I can see the side signs now:
Jamaica Center
Jamaica Center
K via you name it
It could be New York's version of the Circle Line on the London Underground!
Establish East Side subway service. Instead of the extremely costly underground system now in the planning stages, it would be an elevated system on 2nd Avenue. And to save even more money in the budget, continuous welded rail would not be used. Old fashioned rails are cheaper.
Only bad side would be that the residents on 2nd Av may attempt to fight this plan. To ease the inconveniences that the residents would endure, each one would receive a FREE 7 day MetroCard, compliments of the MTA!!!
So, whacha think?
Zman,
We talked about that "circle line" a few years ago before you joined SubTalk. My suggestion then for the sign:
Parsons/Archer
to
Parsons/Archer
via
Bridge AND Tunnel
That settles it. I'm moving to 2nd Avenue!
Chris, with all due respect, you have some very good ideas but what you have is a wish-list - not a plan. A plan tells you how to get it done. A plan would include things like (but not limited to) schedules, resources, studies, and sources of funding.
This is not wish list but a plan.
1. Fix the express tracks on the Sea Beach heading for Coney Island
2. Run an express train from 59th Street to Coney Island for those fans who will be watching the new Brooklyn team plan. There might be a lot of fans who will flock to the new park and that would increase crowds at Coney Island, especially on weekends.
3. Refurbish the stations on the line so the Sea Beach looks like a real line again and not some rundown replica of a time gone by.
Hey Dude, level with me. Is this a pipedream or can something like this ever be done?
"1. Fix the express tracks on the Sea Beach heading for Coney Island"
Well Fred, one track was fixed as well as resignaled. This track is only for emergency moves and not regular service. That southbound express track is dead and will probably be removed in the future some time. To resignal the southbound tracks and install new swithes where they were severed would be considered laughable to the TA.
Bill "Newkirk"
You really need to compare Amtrak and VIA.
Was this comment in response to another post in a thread somewhere?
I'd love to ride VIA through the Canadian Rockies someday.
I'd love to ride VIA through the Canadian Rockies someday.
I've ridden through the Canadian Rockies, back when it was still Canadian Pacific (August 1975). It's quite a ride. I'd love to go again, but the current tariff (Vancouver to Toronto, one way, two persons in a double bedroom) is over C$3400 (about US$2300) and there's no way I can afford it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why does everyone slag off Amtrak? You guys really shouldn't -- I love the company, and I've been a seasoned British Rail traveller for years. VIA may or may not be better, I've never been on it; Amtrak is far from perfect, but it exists, it sort of works, and it's fun. Be thankful for what you have, and savour it while it lasts. I'll be doing what I can to make sure Amtrak stays with us -- you guys should do the same.
Lexcie
Hooyah! We Amtrak fans need to stick together you know.
Long live Amtrak (my favorite national railroad).
>>> Long live Amtrak (my favorite national railroad). <<<
That sounds pretty jingoistic if you compare Amtrak to SNCF or DB.
Tom
Yeah, true. GONNA MAKE SOMETHING OF IT PAL? :0)
SNCF haemorrages $$$, their local trains are dirty, their staff are rude (I'm witness to an incident when a passenger who stepped in between train and platform resulting in his being trapped NOT being attended by the SNCF staff who were standing on the platform).. Let's just say SNCF is SHIT, how about that? Merde, if you don't comprend la Anglaise.
As for DB, I'd be very interested to know when they are actually going to develop a trainset that has wheels that don't fracture. Don't forget, the Eschede 1996 accident resulted in replacement of ties with softer variety throughout the DB system -- that haemorraged money too. They also let the poor people ride at 200km/h for next to nothing and charges a bomb for those who wish to ride at 250km/h to cross subsidize them. They may as well be Soviet Railways at this rate.
Amtrak offers some of the best value rail travel on earth. It's a pity that the American government doesn't let them haemorrage money, because they would provide a much nicer service if they were given the same support as SNCF.
Lexcie
(full-time Eurosceptic)
Good thoughts. I'm guilty of Amtrak-bashing myself with good reasons..but it's all we've got. If we could go back to on time performance, more comprehensive routings, and a seat when you need one [ok...most of the time] and get rid of the airline-style res. and pricing system I'd say we had a going thing.
Again, its all we have so make the most of it.
Have you ridden Amtrak outside the NE corridor? It kinda sucks, it's really infrequent, IMO. Atlanta gets a paltry two trains a day. Ironic, since Atlanta was founded as a train terminal. Now, were an airport city (Hartsfield RULES).
Now everbodys going to take the acela in the air (a.k.a. 737)
Except for a few places like LA-San Diego, Amtrak can't compete with airlines. It exists for a somewhat different market. Still beats Greyhound for service, though :0)
Have you ridden Amtrak outside the NE corridor? It kinda sucks, it's really infrequent, IMO.
I enjoy taking Amtrak outside the corridor. Yes, the schedules are insufficient. I wanted to take the Cardinal back from the Chicago Labor Day weekend SubTalk trip, but it gets in to DC so late that, assuming it's later than scheduled, I'd chance missing a train back to Philly.
So I'm going to take the Lake Shore.
I thoroughly enjoy the dining car experience and the (cramped) sleeping arrangements. I'll start by taking Acela from Philly to DC, then the Capitol to Chicago.
Over the last 12 years I've taken the Pennsylvanian to Pittsburgh and the Broadway back, the Cardinal to Indianapolis and back, the Crescent to Birmingham and back, and the Capitol to Chicago and back. I've thoroughly enjoyed every one. These are all for employer-paid business meetings. This year's meeting happens to be in Chicago Aug 26-30.
Last year's meeting was in DC. I rode Metro extensively and photographed VRE and MARC in addition to Amtrak and Metro.
Sometimes work sucks, and sometimes it's the opposite (it blows). But with trips like these, it ain't all bad.
If you het a really great crew they help you get into the trip. Amtrak crews, on the whole, try harder to please, and succeed much of the time.I've been cross-country 3 times, and up and down both coasts. Always enjoyed it.
Amtrak outside the NEC -- I'm a frequent rider on the Three Rivers, Amtrak's worst train. Even that is a lot better than some of the crap SNCF puts out.
Lexcie
...Three Rivers, Amtrak's worst train
That's why I'm going from Philly to Chicago via Washington and coming back via New York. I want a dining car!
As much of a PRR boster as I am, the B&O ML is probably better as CSX is currently taring down all the towers and replacing all the CPL's w/ Stoplights. BTW I caught a rumour that ALTO and C are not long for this world.
...slag off Amtrak?
Not quite sure what you mean by that, being as I'm old enough to be your father (damn near old enough to be your grandpa), but I'm guessing that you think I'm highly critical of the Route of the Pointless Arrow. Not really - although I do think VIA has done a better job than Amtrak in many cases. I have homes in New Jersey and North Carolina, and for a long time my preferred means of travelling between them was Amtrak's Silver Service between New York or Newark and Rocky Mount. When my younger daughter was in college in Staunton, Virginia, Amtrak to DC and the Cardinal to Staunton was the way to go, at least until they changed the schedule and I couldn't make a connection in DC that would get me back in one day. And of course, when she lived two blocks from Union Station in DC this past year Amtrak was a good choice, despite my total travel time being nearly six hours (from Eatontown, NJ) rather than four hours by car. Now that she's in Silver Spring, Maryland, though, the car is the best bet - 3 hours 45 minutes vs. six hours 45 minutes by train and Metro. Last summer my wife and I rode the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack while on vacation, as well as several VIA trains and enjoyed them thoroughly (although the Adirondack, being Heritage equipment with commuter-sized legroom, wasn't nearly as nice as the other trains). I haven't been west of Chicago on Amtrak but most of the East Coast routes I've ridden over the years have been quite nice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's expensive!
When my wife and I took Amtrak, deluxe first class all the way, from NY to Seattle, and purchased a return flight on United Airlines (Amtrak partner), the total cost of that roundtrip (in 1997) was only $2,100.00.
R42 #4919
R40M #4505
R44 #5331
R29 8570
R33 #8850, barely working.
That's the one i was on yesterday.
Add the 33WFs to the list (Car Nos. 9306-9345. You don't have to worry about car No. 9306 since it is in the transit museum.) since they have no air conditioning.
BMTJeff
They're due for their 3 month nap soon aren't they?
The R-33WFs should be out of service soon if not already.
BMTJeff
Are they out of service permanently or will they be back in the fall?
Last summer, the single cars were not taken out of service. 11 car #7 trains ran all year.
Any R142. =)
I went from a 7 with great AC, to an R142 with so-so AC... the AC on Grand Central's Platform seemed better than in the 142...
Anything is far better than nothing though.
5 Year - 5 Billion Dollar Plan, which does the following.
Rehabilitates all decripte stations on all subway, adds elevators to Grand Central Station, Times Sqaure, Rockerfeller Center,
42 Street (6th Avenue) Add's elevator to 7 lines part of Times Square.
Details of Rebailitation: (Bronx / Manhhatan) Queens and Brooklyn Below
Complete Rehabilitaion of Times Square Station.
Complete Rivial and Rehab of J,M,Z, stations in manhattan.
Re-use lower level of City Hall Station (N,R,Q).
Completely Rehab the Atlantic Avenue Station.
Complete Rehab of Stations along the Concourse Lines. (205 St, Bedford Park Boulevard, Kingsbridge Road, Fordham
Road, 174-175 St, 170 St, 167 St, 155 St (including removing abandoned staircases)
Shutdown of 205 Street / 182-283 Street Station for complete make over, then reopen. Rehab of entire J,M,Z, station in
brooklyn.
Removing the Old Tower at Myrtle Avenue and old Elevated Structure.
Rehabilitaing All stations along Jerome Avenue Except 161 Street.
Rehabing All stations along White Plans Road Except Intervale Avenue + 3rd Avenue.
Brooklyn + Queens
Complete Rehab of ALL Stations on the Sea Beach, Brighton, Culver, and West End Lines. New Elevators, new connections at key stations. Revival of Sea Beach Express.
New Switch at Bay Parkway to allow for faster swtich back for the M line.
Complete Rehab of ALL stations along Queens Boulevard and along Hillside Avenue. New swtiches before and after Queens Plaza Station to allow for possible new express G service (full time) to 179 Street.
Station Revial along Jamica Avenue
Station Rehab along 7 line stations. Including total rehab of Shea Stadium Station. Station rehab of all N Queens Line Stations.
What have you been drinking today???
Last Week.
My MOM told me that when she was comming from the Bronx that she got a R-36WF's on the (4). I never knew the R-36WF's are out of Concourse Yard. Is this what Concourse Yard is getting in return from sending R-36ML's to Corona Yard?
(4) R-36WF #9600.
Concourse Yard is a Subdivision B2 (IND) yard. Its associated shop, Concourse Shop, services and inspects cars assigned to the D line. The yard houses B and D trains.
#4 trains are shopped at Woodlawn Shop, which is inside Mosholu Yard (where the #4 trains are stored, along with Livonia Yard in Brooklyn), a Subdivision A (IRT) yard that is near Concourse Yard and Shop. I haven't seen any R-36s running in #4 service lately (though they've been reported on the #5), but the way "Redbirds" are being thrown around lately it wouldn't surprise me...much :-)
David
I remember for a brief time in 1996 I rode on a R36WF on the #4 line it was only temporaily, after that never saw it. I even don't remember the car nos.
I saw a 4-bird today at Atlantic Ave. c. 3:00 PM.
Car number 9302 on the (4) was as close
as I've seen the (4) get to r36-WF..
Is there such a thing as commuter rail between Philly and DC???
I want to day trip down to the Smithsonian this summer and Amtrak seems to have quadrupled their fares.
On the Northeast Corridor, MARC commuter trains runs between Washington, DC and Perryville, MD. SEPTA only runs between Trenton, NJ and Philly (R7) and between Philly and Newark, DE (R3). There is no commuter trains running between Perryville, MD and Newark, DE.
More bad news for you, MARC trains only run on weekdays. You have no choice but to choose Amtrak to DC during weekends.
Chaohwa
There is an 11 mile gap between Newark, DE and Perryville, MD. On weekends, SEPTA ends in either Wilmington, DE or Marcus Hook, PA and there is no MARC.
There is an 11 mile gap between Newark, DE and Perryville, MD
But for that gap, you could ride commuter trains from New London, Connecticut to Fredricksburg, Virginia.
Actually I live in Wilmington and the Amtrak fare from here to DC is
$42 each way!!!! Based on what you all told me I could actually just drive to Perryville and ride MARC the rest of the way. I'd doi on a weekday. I have vacation coming up and I'm off on thursdays and fridays anyway. That could work
Rumor has it that the Maryland MTA (who run MARC) and Delaware DOT (who subsidise the Delaware SEPTA operation)have been talking about operating MARC trains to Newark, DE. This might be Weekdays only. MARC would like to operate weekend service, but the Maryland General Assembly cut those funds from Glendenning's somewhat massive Transit budget.
Actually, that reminds me of an idea for a trip I want to take someday. I want to try to get from DC to Boston using only transit. The plan would start in the VA suburbs, take the Metro to Union Station, then MARC as far as MARC will take me. Somehow I'd make it to Newark, DE, take SEPTA to Trenton, NJT to NYC, then the Long Island Railroad to Mauntauk, a ferry to Providence, then MBTA to Boston. The only hitch is those 11 miles between Perryville, MD and Newark, DE. Would it be cheating to take a bicycle?
Mark
Actually, that reminds me of an idea for a trip I want to take someday. I want to try to get from DC to Boston using only transit. The plan would start in the VA suburbs, take the Metro to Union Station, then MARC as far as MARC will take me. Somehow I'd make it to Newark, DE, take SEPTA to Trenton, NJT to NYC, then the Long Island Railroad to Mauntauk, a ferry to Providence, then MBTA to Boston. The only hitch is those 11 miles between Perryville, MD and Newark, DE. Would it be cheating to take a bicycle?
Not at all, seeing how there's no other alternative. But the Montauk-to-Providence trip would be quite complicated. You'd have to take a ferry from Montauk to Block Island, then another one to Providence. I doubt if either one runs more than a couple of times a day or if there's any coordination of schedules. If you're going to be using a bicycle, and don't mind moderate distances, you'd probably be better off taking Metro North from Grand Central to New Haven, Shoreline East from New Haven to New London, and then biking it from New London to Providence. That would be about a 50-mile bike ride. But check for bike restrictions on the various trains you'd be using.
Only if you didn't put 50 cents into the bike's farebox.
:0)
MARC is considering an extension to Elkton, MD -- which will reduce the gap to 5 miles. The suggestion is simply to serve Wilmington, DE from Washington, DC -- since there are no run-round facilities at Perryville, MD, it would simply easier just to turn the train at Wilmington.
(Jersey Mike dictated this message)
You could save just a couple bucks by taking SEPTA to Wilmington and Amtrak from Wilmington to DC.
I've just gone down on a Philly-DC round trip. Amtraking it is well worthwhile. I also rode SEPTA/NJTransit/PATH yesterday to get to New York City. I'll not do that again even if someone paid me to -- Amtrak gets away with charging $40 one-way for a reason. They need the $, so pay them.
Lexcie
It takes over 2.5 hours to do what you did by commuter rail. It's a long ride and you have to change trains.
But:
It's dirt cheap. One time, about ten years ago, I got a pretty girl's phone number while riding the train. Got a few dates and good entertainment out of it. Can't complain.
If I don't have time to kill Amtrak is the way to go. And $40 is cheap compared to an airline ticket.
I juts picked upa few copies of the Manhattan Bridge Service brochure. The one I got was in English and Spanish (on the reverse side).
The changes are scheduled to go into effect July 22 (Sunday).
I won't repeat all the changes again since they have been disected in a large number of postings.
The ones I did not see discussed (although I could have missed it)were:
S - Sixth Av Shuttle 21 St - Queensbridge to Broadway-
Lafayette (will probably continue to 2 Av to change ends and head uptown).
The W will be an Express between Ditmars Blvd and Queensboro Plaza (to Manhattan in AM rush, to Astoria in PM rush - the brochure says morning and evening so it could be longer hours of operation). The W will makethe following stops in Manhattan: 57 St, 49 St, 42 St, 34 St, 14 St, Canal St. On weekends the W will run between Stillwell Av and Pacific Street.
In the middle of the brochure is a fold out map of the affected lines (B, D, Q, W).
where did you get it at, what station? I want to get me a copy of it?
Ooo! Ooo! Somebody's gotta SCAN that puppy ... can't find it at any of the subway stations up here in Smallbany. =)
Here, here. It's safe to assume they'll ge all gone by the time I make it out to the city in October.
Send me an SASE or an SSAE or whatever the abbriviation is and I'll mail you one.
I got it at Grand Central at the Lexington Avenue entrance to the 4,5,6.
Just wanted to say thanks for the email and the gift ...
Thanks Al I will try to go over around Grand Central Station around this weekend to get a copy of the brochure.
The Brochures are appearing at all stations.
I saw them at WTC on the E during a walk at lunchtime and at Pelham Bay Park on my way home.
I just picked 'em up at the GCT station this evening. Thanks for the heads up. This brochure really drops a load on people. I hope they can take it. I'm even a little flustered. :)
Spring's bus/subtalk brochure mentioned the changes and the brochure you found, maybe it's been longer.
Now, can we expect the riding public to obtain these brochures and fully understand the major changes come July 22.
Maybe in a real world we can expect a lot of people either scratching their heads or cursing like they did back in November 1967 (Chrystie St.)
Bill "Newkirk"
"Now, can we expect the riding public to obtain these brochures and fully understand the major changes come July 22.
"Maybe in a real world we can expect a lot of people either scratching their heads or cursing like they did back in November
1967 (Chrystie St.)"(Quoted from Bill "Newkirk"'s post)
Of course they won't obtain them. The only way to let them know is to have a big campaign for these changes and also for the opening of 63rd Street Connector.
Here some suggestions for the campaign.
Slogans first:
1.B and D are not the way to Brooklyn now, use either F or Q.
2.Q don't pass the 6th now, use the new F instead.
3.V serves the 6th through the 53rd in the morning and night.
Please add some more which are ryhm and easy to remember.
Large size notices should be post at the affected stations.
Use simple sentence to attract the passengers.
eg.(B) to Coney Island -> (F) to Dekalb and (Q) to Coney Island
Also MTA can utillize the mass media too if they like.
There should be more suggestions here, please raise them up.
Here's an idea: They should give out free money with the brochures stapled to them. Or they should have a booth where you go there, read the brochure while a TA employee watches you, then sign a form stating that you read the brochure and that you understand what will happen July 22, and then they give you free money. $5 would be good.
How about a free 30-day MetroCard instead of a piddly $5?
But people will sign away their first born for $5.
Make them read the brochure, then pass a quiz, then get a mystery prize!
1. After the changes take effect, which of the following lines will NOT be running to Brooklyn?
A. B
B. D
C. F
D. A and B
E. A and C
confused yet?
Which of the following streets will the Q NOT run along when the changes go into effect?
A. Flatbush Avenue Extension
B. West Brighton Avenue
C. Broadway
D. Hylan Boulevard
E. Canal Street
Umm, C
You are operating a W train and it has just crossed the Manhattan Bridge into Brooklyn. Which lineup do you want?
A. Green over Yellow
B. Green over Green
C. Red over Lunar White
D. Fox
E. NBC
You are a railfan and have just spent the whole day riding the subway, you decide to go someplace where the subway doesn't go. Which is the best place for someone like you?
A. Staten Island
B. LaGuardia Airport
C. Eastern Queens
D. New Jersey
E. Ward's Island
FINALLY! An easy one!
I guess the W will be switching from the local track to the express track at 42nd instead of 57th, as I had expected. Makes sense, I guess -- 49th is a popular stop.
I take it both Q's will be bypassing 49th.
Since both Q services will be terminating at 57th St., they will be skipping 49th.
Yup, this is pretty much the same way things ran from 4/86 to 12/88, except the W was the yellow B.
I had the pleasure of joining two people who will remain anonymous to avoid the usual oo can I do it sayings. I got out of the borough hall station, and I was greeted by the two people and we walked towards livingston street. We went inside the training facility and one of the people I was with asked if the students were done with the simulators, and the other person that worked at the sim facility said at 3:30 they would be (it was around 1:30). So, me and the 2nd person I was with split from the 1st person who worked at the MTA building for 2 hours. Boy those 2 hours were cool! My friend and I took the 4 to 14th street. We waited for an R142A to take us downtown and we got one. 7360, boy she was brand new. I managed to peel off a barcode sticker and I taped it to my backpack. :-). Anyways, we rode down to BB and we went around the loop, my friend tried to tape the hall loop, but it was much shorter than expected, as I only got a glance for 2 seconds while I was standing between cars. We rode up to 14th street in 7360, the T/O didn't re-program the announcements/LED's until Spring street! So anyways we rode back up to 14th street. We turned around and we hung out on the downtown platform front end for about 30 mins. My friend shot all the trains he saw to death and it was fun. We waited around for a R142 (they travel in packs and we missed one, so it was long) and we got one, 7250 I believe. We rode in the front car until Canal, when I announced my friend that I would get us in the cab. I knocked and the T/O said at BB he would let us in for a quick shoot. BB came around and he let us in, we tried to dilly daddle for a bit so the doors would close and we would ride around the loop (two times now) in the R142 cab! Sure enough, we did, and we got all this on tape, even the reprogramming! OK, so we thought that 2 times around the loop was enough so we decided to get off at BB (uptown side) and we walked to the B51 stop to take us back to Livingston street (it was like 2:45) since we knew the B51 was running Express RTS (93xx series) as their bus today. We waited, and waited and we couldn't wait any longer. It was around 3:10 when we gave up and took a 4 redbird to Borough Hall. We went up to the 2nd persons office and we stuck around for a bit, I got my reflector vest (yay!) and we headed downstairs. Oh boy, I was in heaven. The simulator place was not occupied! The guy who runs the sim place popped in the 4 train laser disc. The instructor grounds has 2 computer monitors in each of the two stations. There are 2 simulator stations and one can be retrofitted with a R46 controller for the E (there is also the B). Me and my friend went to our respective cabs and started. Damn, it was heaven! The buzzers, everything worked. In front of me as the display was about a 40' HDTV monitor, to the right of me was the windowframe (no plexiglass) and a monitor and a switchboard panel. The side monitor only worked when pulling into stations so you could see your stop marker. My friend's train died at 183rd street I think. But I went all the way to BB. Shizat, that was fun! The radio (which was handheld!) was controlled by the console. Every thing you pressed, and every mistake you commited was logged. I thought that the dead man's switch was a bit sensitive. I'm not sure if this is accurate, but loading the brakes after you activate the dead man's switch took an awfully long time. Wow, I should have a pic of me in the sim when the person gets the pics back!
I had lots of fun!
-Clayton
PS- I'll see yall June 17 at the nostalgia train trip. I'm wearing a gray t-shirt, MTA vest, blue bandana and a light blue yankees hat. Cya!
40 inches, not feet heh my bad
A barcode sticker? On a subway car? Did the cashier at WalMart scan it before President Larry Reuter put the subway car in his pickup for the ride to the storage yard?
Hahahahahaha! Welcome to Wal*Mart ... my name's Selkirk ... may I toss you into a casket full of rats? :)
Not to spoil anyone else's fun, but - as a student T/O - the simulator is EASILY the worst part of our training (my group of 10 students unanimously agree on this), namely because the sim's do not (yet) have any feeling of motion. We were introduced to the sim's after having moved real cars, so the sim was a letdown for us. However, from what I understand, most of the general public that gets to see/handle the sim are very pleased with the experience.
I realized that it was kind of hard to stop at stations for I overshot 2, and when i reversed, the computer didn't open the doors so I just went on :-)
Motion is coming in the definate R142 sim there...not there yet but they are making room for it
Alright, here's a pic.
Very neat indeed, the switchboard for changing tracks at appropriate stations (I didn't use it but I can imagine it would be used at Franklin Avenue) is through that window, a small white box hangs.
Two hands on the Controller ... what happens when you have to scratch your nose ? Nice shot thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
You can take your hand off the brake when you're not using it. There is also a second simulator there that uses the R-46 type single controller. Alot of us seem to like the two hand controllers better for some reason. I feel I have more control with it.
The simulators would be nice for someone who would like to get some idea of what it is like to man the controls, but once you have actually moved a real train, the simulator becomes cheap nonsense.
eBay Item # 1155780264. No reserve, minimum bid applies. This is an original, not a reproduction. 1915 New York Municipal Railway Corporation Plan Showing Area Covered by Inventory of Poles, Trolley Feeders, etc. Connection with Coney Island Terminal Contract. Scale 1" = 50'. Plan number A-1393. Size approximately 31" long x 22" high. Shows Brighton Beach area and alignment of Coney Island and Brooklyn Railroad tracks in the vicinity of Brighton Beach Racetrack. Shows all tracks and switches, trolley pole locations, small and large structures including the racetrack's grandstand, club house, paddock, open shed and also the Brighton Beach Music Hall and Brighton Beach Hotel, plus all other smaller residential and commercial structures, including another hotel, in the area at that time. This is an extremely rare map in excellent condition. It will be shipped to the winning bidder, unless he specifies otherwise, rolled in a secure package. The photos below show the overall plan (top left); the other three photos are close-ups of various sections. The plan itself is dark blue and white (a reverse blueprint). A must, one-of-a-kind item for Brooklyn rapid transit fans. •For more information or other items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for “JoePCC699@AOL.com”. New items added frequently, usually daily.
'Cuse me, but why not pay some advertisement fees to the Webmaster???
Making a post here just to push an ebay item somehow comes off as unethical...
BMTman
Thanks, Doug;
I wanted to say that but didn't know how to say it tactfully.
Bob
Maybe there's hope of taking back the tracks after all. :)
Does MARC have a web address that anyone knows about?
The MARC website is here.
Chaohwa
this afternoon while riding on the 7 train to Willets Point to see whats going on I spotted R 36 WFs 9492 and 9493 at Corona yard. They must have come up sunday?????? Looks like the Westchester R 36s will see the 7 line for the last time. keep em coming!!!!!!!!
I saw 9492 and 93 first at Coney Island Yard on Saturday Night.
-Stef
ahh! can't they stop sending more mainlines to us and send us a few pairs of r62A's
With time that will happen. But for now the 'Birds Rule The Roost.
-Stef
You mean we're losing those nice ML units the 7 just got? Oh darn!
They came in on Monday night.
Ever wish there was simply a nice sheet that would show every disruption occurring in a given week without all the excess about alternative methods? Well, there is one! Unfortunately, it's for MTA personnel only, but you can see an ad for it at the 168st station mezzanine under the heading "Now you can help your customers better." Why can't they post these in stations instead of those annoying to read individual posters? I'm sure anyone with half a brain would figure out how to get around them if they knew right away exactly what was going on!
If a GO concerns YOUR LINE.. you're likely to see the
red-white posters in stations along your line..
If a GO "list" were to be posted cross-system... you'd
stop and have to read down the entire list TO SEE
IF A GO IS IN EFFECT ON YOUR LINE... and if there isn't
one... chances are you'd have missed that train you were
"destined to get on" but had to stop because a "list"
made you think it had something concerning YOUR LINE..
Individuality.
Um, I think you missed his point...
The list had the routes in the left column and the disruptions in the right. Find the letter/number on the left, look to the right, takes about three seconds.
This would be a great idea especially since if you plan to transfer there is no way to know that there is a GO until you got off your first train already, exactly what happen today to me I to the R from Bay Ridge Ave and got off at 36 St to wait for the B. After waiting 10 minutes for the B it comes in on the local track, If i had known the B was going to make all local stops I would have stayed on the R. And does anyone know why the B was Local in Brooklyn or was it just my train?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
And in the last two weeks, it has left out three GO and gotten another four wrong. And that's just in the IRT. As far as I'm concerned, it's just four more pieces of paper to carry around, but which will get you taken out of service if you don't have.
The national rodeo took place at Wellington Carhouse and the northern part of the Orange Line here in Boston on Saturday 6/9/01.
Boston took the top overall prize, San Jose 2nd and NYC 3rd. Boston won on the performance of their operators (1st place) and the shop guys placed 7th.
NY's shop guys placed 3rd. Don't know how ops did, but it must have been close as they held 3rd overall. The Boston shop team was out of the Blue Line and are friends of mine. They did comment on how good and tough the NY shop guys were.
I ended up doing the VIP train ride on the Orange as the train attendant. I got a free lunch (hot dogs, burgers, lobstah and steamers) and was on overtime to boot! All last week and this week, there have been all sorts of people peering into the cabs. Last week it was operators and shop people, this week it's manufacturer's reps.
I'll bone up a little more and try for Baltimore next year. California is the year after.
Nobody but a bunch of brown nosers and suck ups.
Guess somebody got to go to Boston on the clock, and you didn't!
That Rodeo messed up my railfaning on Sunday they had to close down the orange line a replace it with a bus. Although it was nice to ride in clean car for once.
Dan,
Wasn't that Saturday late afternoon? It wasn't the rodeo. It was a smoking car that went crippled on the crossover at Wellington. They couldn't tack on from the car behind due to a drawbar prob. They finally got something out of the yard to tow it. In the meantime, it's location stopped trains both ways.
>>>>>>Nobody but a bunch of brown nosers and suck ups.
AGREED! I know the winning Conductor. He is one of the biggest conceited assholes that you could ever meet. Thinks he knows it all.
He lost last year in the TA qualifier, man was he a sore loser! Idiot.
Now wait a minute. While I do agree with your description of (name deleted), please to remember that you also know the guy who beat him in '99 and went to Toronto. And I'm pretty sure that I'm not a conceited asshole or a brown-nosing suck-up. Least ways, if I am, no one has ever told me so.
Let me rephrase that.......
The two usual winners (you know who) are kiss-ups. The rest of them are trying to win a free trip. When the trip is for an overseas location, I'm gonna give it a shot myself.
Out of four R-62s I've ridden on the 6 in since Monday, three of them have had nonfunctional A/C. Anyone know why some of the most reliable units in the fleet are being as bad as redbirds in the A/C department?
Dan
In my own experience the Kawasaki R-62s have the worst or amongst the worst air conditioning. The Bombardier R-62As are much better in my own experience.
BMTJeff
If I'm not mistaken, the air conditioning units on the R-62 and R-62A cars are THE SAME UNITS (they were when new -- same as the "Redbirds," too -- but there have been changes over the years)! Therefore, if there is a difference in performance, it could be due to maintenance practices in the shops. In addition, since the performance specs are the same (regardless of whether the units are the same model), it could have to do with crowding levels: the units are designed to keep the cars at 72 degrees, but that's with an empty car. A full car can be as high as 78 degrees with the equipment working properly.
David
The equipment was most certainly not working properly; the cars were extremely humid and the temps were in the mid to high eighties. Also, at least one of the cars was virtually empty (6 train at 96th, heading downtown at about 3:00 PM).
Dan
My comments were actually directed at BMTJeff's observations. I haven't gotten on a car with malfunctioning AC yet this year, but I'm sure I will. Even if 99% of the cars have functioning AC, that leaves around 60 cars in which it doesn't work at any given time.
David
If 99% of the cars have functioning A/C, I must be awfully unlucky.
I didn't say they did; I said IF they did -- pointing out that anything less than 100% means SOMEBODY is going to be riding in a hot car at any given time.
David
The "redbird", 62 and 62A A/C systems are all of the same design
and specs, but the components are different. The redbird units
are the oldest and because they were kluged into the existing
fan housings, the airflow patterns are poor. Any differences
between the 62 and 62A fleet are probably more because of maintenance
practices. The 62s all come out of Mosh, so maybe Train Dude can
walk over there and straighten things out :)
If the R-62s/R-62As are using the same air conditioning equipment as the "Redbirds" that would certainly be the reason they perform so poorly. Poor maintenance would also result in poor performance. A crowded car would also be hotter than an empty or almost empty car.
BMTJeff
Jeff H. explained the differences in the way the equipment is set up in "Redbirds" vs. R-62/62As. It's basically the same stuff (although that has changed over time, as the R-62/62As have gotten AC-powered blowers and other upgrades), but the air distribution is completely different.
David
Today I was on two different trains of Bombardier R-62As on the No.1 local. Both car #2371 when I rode the southbound train and car #2445 on the northbound train had weak A/C. A few years ago or so the R-62As usually had good A/C. What happen? The Kawasaki R-62s generally have weak A/C in my own experience unless that has improved in recent years.
BMTJeff
Just around 11pm, i saw a truck with R142A #7428 at Gun Hill Rd heading to 239th St Yard.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
I saw the same truck at 242-Bway.
11PM? I saw that truck just after 2AM this morning driving past my house when i was coming in from work.
There is this new game out called Traffic Giant, which is a
transportation simulation game. I just received my copy today from
Amazon.com, and I found it very addictive, although I still need to
get the hang of it. It is in many ways similar to Sim City, but
basically all you have to do is construct transit systems for the
cities. The transit systems include bus, tram (light rail), monorail,
and suspended railway. I recommend this game to any rail/transit buff!
Could you tell us more about it? Is it map based?
It has the look and feel of Sim City 3000, but instead of having control over the entire city, it focuses on transit. You can play either as a politician trying to get reelected or as a transit entrepreneur, and you plan and control every aspect of the transit system - collecting origin-destination information from people, planning routes, demolishing buildings, buying buses, subway cars, and LRVs, and setting fares, salaries, and quality of maintenance. It really shows you how frustrating budget constraints are :). You can download a demo at the game's website.
Is it a re-incarnation of "A Train"?
I haven't played A-Train, but probably. With buses.
I couldn't help noticing the URL is based in Germany. The city has a European look to it.
Phil Hom
Virginia Div - BMT
It's not part of the A-Train series of games from Japan, which last I checked is still releasing new versions (A2001 is the most recent, I think), but only in Japan. It seems to have a similar idea, though A-Train always started with a basic rail system not a bus system.
I'm still hoping for a follow-up to Transport Tycoon Deluxe ... does Traffic Giant compare favorably?
I got a copy a few months ago and I just started playing it. It rememds me of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, only not as goode.
I guess that answers my question about how it compares to TT Deluxe ... what's not as good?
You heard me right. Bombardier and Kawasaki's equipment can mix and match as it seems. Proof? 7211-15 and 6336-40 now carry passengers on the 2. The train was headed south to Flatbush some minutes ago.
On that note, it was previously reported the return of 6336-45 to service. 6336-40 is in, 6341-45 out. 6341-45 were moving about East 180th Street Carbarn earlier in the evening with newcomers 6596-6600.
-Stef
Great ... just what we need ... switch-hitting toasters on wheels that can go either way. :)
Now let's see if we can get them to talk to a gate car. Heh.
Oh gosh.
Different breeds of animal don't you think?
The cars don't need horny goatweed to copulate, that's for sure....
-Stef
Ya never know ... although some goatweed might help ... wonder if the mating rituals of 50.5 foot cars will result in announcements that sound like goats bleating though. Some mighty kinky stuff went on in the SMEE days too ya know ... and without benefit of barnyard animals.
Don't mind me though, I'm just thinking ahead to when they're retired and Branford ends up on the receiving end of a couple ... I still suspect this will result in breech-birthed R166's ... and once that happens, the end is nowhere in sight ...
Gee and I only thought BERA mated R9's and LowV's and HiV's...
Apparently, BioTech is more spongeworthy than Mob-on Oil ... BUY! :)
Guess you missed the mating of an H&M car with a Staten Island ME1?
When did that happen!?!?
-Stef
This Sunday past. BMTman rode on the Staten Island car, first time
that it moved in about 5 years.
Where did you take it to? Something happening on Track 64? Oh wait.... Does this have something to do with 5002?
-Stef
BMTMan has pix, we will show you Wednesday.
I think they needed trucks that were on the track with the 388. Nice pix of Jeff on the HM and the master mechanic on the ground checking clearance as she came out of the barn.
Acording to BMTMan the R9 was two big for the curves back there so they couldn't use his baby.
Wish they did the move on Saturday, I haven't been on a SIR car in awhile and took them to High School all the time >G<.
If one could come up with a way to get an R-142/R-142A to work with a gate car it would be very interesting.
BMTJeff
Just a matter of time ... I've seen some strange consists in photos at some of the museums ... R9's and HiV's dancing together. :)
Yeah! I've found that 1689 and 5466 have great chemistry. No horny goatweed here. We just shot them full of juice and they hit it off right away.
-Stef
Heh. AMazing what enough current applied to the right places can do. And no, won't even make snide comments about the buggy whips on top. Heh.
Now when will 7211-15 came back home to the No.6 Line.
When they get thru testing this oddball train. Now I wonder if that same set will go over there?!?
-Stef
Oh, I gotta ride this train!
From what I heard, this "mixed breed" is not doing too well.
When did the "G" line begin using 6-car only trains????
When exactly did the #3 line begin using only 9-car trains? Was there ever a time when that line used 10-car trains??
Tony
Well I went on another transit oddesy today here's the lowdown.
Traveling with Lexcie we hopped a PATCO train at 7:19 and made it to Market East station to catch the 7:52 train to Trenton. Our train was delayed due to some MoW work and we ended up being held at MORRIS for a Amtrak lond haul to pass. Once the track was clear we went from track 1 all the way over to track 3. We then approached Trenton station, passed the westward home signal at STOP and PROCEED and entered track 5 to meet the NJT train to NYC that was waiting on our late arrival. Due to the late arrival we were able to purchase out tickets on the train w/o penality. I got really lucky on the NJT train as the big metal plate over the railfan window had slipped down about 4 inches and I was able to observe the engineee, the speedo and the cab signals. Between most stations our 10 car Arrow III train usually hit 86-64 MPH. I also noticed that UNION had a new hi-speed turnout w/ a movable point frog. One cool person we met was sitting in the front seat of the MU. He was a new conductor trying to qualift on the NEC b/t Rahway and HUDSON. He had made himself a little colour coded diagram of the line that was far far superior than the sihtty maps that Amtrak had given out. Rule 251 was blue, 261 green, other tracks were pink and signals were orange. Stations, towers, interlockings and bridges were also listed. It was all extremely professional and I didn;t doubt that this guy would easily qualify. I also learned that ELMORA is no longer a full crossover. What moron thought that one up?
OK, we get to NWK and change to a WTC bound PATH train. Once at WTC we buy Fun Passes and hop to the E platform. After a wait an E pulls in with...R32's! WOO HOO. Well because the train was late we ran Express to W 4th St. Double WOO HOO! From W. 4th we caught a Q southbound. The T/O heard my and Lexcie talking and opened up the door and began to point some stuff out and answer questions. He was a grizzled old guy with no front teeth and was really cool/nice. AS we slowly(!) the Manny B we had to pick up like 3 sets of track workers. The T/O asked each about the Flip Flop date and none of the workers had a firm date when if ever the flip flop would occur. We got off at the Heypaul station and observed a track gang doing an emergency tie replacement on the Q track b4 a D picked us up and took us to Stillwell Ave. After a filling meal of Nathans and a walk on the beach we went back to the terminal to catch an N back to Manhattan. Unfortunitly Nathans had given Lexcie the runs and he was forced to find a bathroom. My admonition for him to check the Stilwell bathroom for toilet paper was well times as none of the stalls had any and the other other place we knew w/ working bathrooms was Penn Station. So we waited on the N platform for an R32 for about 30 minutes and we finally got going.
Now let me say one thing here. THE SEA BEACH ROCKS!!!!!!! Yeah, what a great line. CI yards, R32's w/ RFW's and passign through, mini tunnels and a rewarding express run at the end. What a WONDERFUL line.
Well in the interests of time we used the Panama Canal to change to a 2 train at Atlantic Ave where I also happened to see a 4-bird. Now our T/O on the 2 was a real speed deamon. We was rocketing around curves and getting all that he could get on the straights. Bcause I was having suck a rocking good time I left Lexcie at Penn Station while I rode to 96th and back. After reviweing Amtrak timetables we saw that we had enough time for one last ride. We hopped an R32 E out to Roosevelt Ave (ROCKIN UNDERGROUND PORTION AFTER QBP!) and transfered to a 7 train back to TSQ and then to an S/B N to the PATH interchange at 34th St. The PATH train back to JSQ was rather full and something caused the lights to go off in the entire train for like 5 min b4 some conductor came forward and tripped something in the cab. It was also interesting to notice how professional the PATH conductors look. Just like real RR conductors (which is not surprising considering that PATH is an FRA railroad). Well we get to JSQ and make an accross-the-platform transfer to an crush load NWK. Once at NWK we follow the mob down to track 3 where we catch a NJT train back to Trenton that then connects w/ a SEPTA local out of Trenton track 1. The only other problem was that the R7 train we caught terminated at Suburban Station which caused us to hace to embark upon a very annoying transfer. Finally, while comming home on PATCO there was one last omen of good lucke. On the paralell Conrail SAA track after PATCO emerges from it's E/B portal, the westward home signal at CP-MILL was displaying CLEAR for an approaching movement.
This was a great trip and I am now thoroughly hooked on the NYCS (despite the general slowness), especially the 2-BIRDS and the SEA BEACH LINE!
Mike of course neglected to mention his brilliant idea to take PATH/NJT/SEPTA between NYP and Philly cost me a valuable 2 hours and 30 mins (I had a date onboard Amtrak #175 so I mustn't miss that train ex-Philly and had to get back for a shower before then). Nonetheless, it was a worthwhile trip and I learned a lot about transits.
Lexcie (not a transit fan, an intercity fan)
"Now let me say one thing here. THE SEA BEACH ROCKS!!!!!!! Yeah, what a great line."
Sea Beach Fred already loves you !! Even before he reads your post.
Bill "Newkirk"
"OK, we get to NWK and change to a WTC bound PATH train."
I se you guys were using your heads. You could have easily went to Penn Station, but chose to cut your trip short and take PATH to NYC instead. Good thinking !
What you also could have done if you were pressed for time was leave from Penn Station to Trenton. Sitting at a window seat on the left side in direction of travel, you would have seen the Secaucus transfer station now under construction. I haven't done this lately, but you could buy your NJT and SEPTA ticket at Penn. I'm not sure if the TVMs sell NJT & SEPTA tickets or not.
If you think the Sea Beach Rocks, next time ride the (Q) Brighton Exp. R-40 slants and a kick ass express ride from Prospect park to Brighton Beach.
Bill "Newkirk"
We had already bought RTX tickets to Newark.
"We had already bought RTX tickets to Newark"
Well, there's aLways next time.
Bill "Newkirk"
Was told by a good friend that the mainline R36's (9504-9557/square windows) from Westchester's fleet would be the first group to bite the dust. My friend was told that they are loaded with more asbestos than the others. I was up at 207 yd. and they are stacking stripped redbirds in the back on 3 North and 6 North. Didn't have time to notice the numbers. Any word? Thanks.
When working on the No.1 Line in the back of 207 YD I did see a string of R26/28 and one R33 car from the No.2 Line. Also a 10 car R29 from Pelham
Dearly beloved, we geather hear today to pay our last respect to our beloved Redbirds. They were go cars, but there time have come to go to a better place in the ocean. Don't be sad my friens, keep a hold of all of you good memory about them, and keep the sprit alive.
Aman.
Robert
I ment to say GOOF cars, not go cars.
Robert
I ment to say GOOD cars, not go or goof cars
Robert
Here son, whiz in this bottle for me, won't ya? :)
Why you think I am on something. I just did that two weeks ago.
Robert
I saw that same set yesterday. The R33 car is 9057 which was behind 7936-37. I also saw the 10 car Pelham R29 set.
perhaps 9057 is in waiting for 9056 to return
from it's rendezvous in DC?
"perhaps 9057 is in waiting for 9056 to return
from it's rendezvous in DC?"
My personal opinion is #9056 is not returning to service let alone NYC !
The underbody was stripped of A/C, compressor, resistor grids, etc. I don't think the TA will put it all back for it to return to service. I could be wrong, and I could be right.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw a bunch of 7830's up on props inside the shop. They were being stripped, supposedly for retirement.
I guess that time has finally arrived. It's very hard to think that these cars are about to start going away. I the R-142/142A prove to be at least half as reliable as these departing (and durable) workhorses.
Wayne
I forgot my high school physics and realize there is a delay in braking but is there a target formula.
Like on flat ground a 20lb brake will knock off two mph every 50 ft or something like that?
Can't help you with the formula (been too many years and I'm doing other things now) but that "20 pounds" (actually 30-40 for real in a cab on the subway) has to do with pressure applied to the cylinders, not decelleration force of the wheels themselves. Are you trying to calculate this based on the needle on the gauge? Granted, it's been a while since I've applied this in a tunnel, but with the old R1/9's, if your timing was right, feathering between 30 and 40 on the dial made for a smooth stop before stop release but I suspect that you're trying to calculate braking force by that and it ain't the same ...
I see what you mean but I was thinking more about the results not the math. Like if you are going 30mph ho long does it take to stop with a 20lb reading on the gauge, 30, 40. I know trains brake differently but there has to be some sort of target because dynamic braking is adjustable anyway.
but is a 40 twice as poswerful as a 20? will a 30lb brake take twice as long to slow you down to 30mph than 15?
Back in my days, there was no dynamic on the old cars, so you'd pull to 30/40 to start grabbing and release it a bit as they grabbed. So what my own experiences were with the old cars would not correlate at ALL to the way they work these days. But on the road, the objective was to make time so I s'pose like most of the others on the road at the time, I'd qualify for yee-hah ... you'd wrap the controller like you were trying to start a lawnmower, and apply brake until your nose hit the glass. :)
But in general, it was controller off about 100/200 before the platform and you'd be yanking it as soon as you were in the station.
Well you could go 50+mph back then. The highest speed I got inot a station was about 42.
That's sad ... back in my days, you'd WAIL through the tunnels and raise CLOUDS of steel when you applied. And you'd better be yanking it when you hit platform or you'd be stopping in tunnel. :)
To the best of my knowledge, there is no such formula. By design, a full service brake will average (over the entire stop) a decelleration rate of 3.2 MPH/Sec. However, on some cars a full service brake may be 68 PSI BCP while on others it may be 32 PSI BCP. In the R-142s it could be as low as 20 PSI BCP.
OK that is two distinctions. What the gauge says and what is really going on in the train, with dynamic braking there is no real air involved anyway.
But, the RCI's do try to calibrate the brakes by having T/Os run down the test track at 20 or 30mph and checking stopping time (roughly) at 30lbs or 50lbs or full service.
The other thing I am trying to figure out is is a 40lb brake going to slow the train in half the time as a 20lb or is the some sort of curve.
Currently I am in school car and some of the TSS's in group posting were real speed fanatics. Taking a full service one second past the conductors board when you are going 35mph is fun but I do not think it makes me a better operator this close to road posting.
I like to take 2-3 cars in, take 20 pounds and adjust. Personally as a passenger I hate cowboy T/O's on crowded trains you fly all over the place.
Anyway knowing something about the decelaration curve should quiet these guys down.
The braking rate is roughly proportional to the straight air call,
i.e. the red needle on your duplex gauge. If you take full-service
to be 85 psi, that corresponds to a rate of 3.0 MPHPS, i.e. you'll
lose 3 MPH of speed for every second. So, 42 pounds will give you
about half that, or 1.5 MPHPS. Stopping distance is inversely
proportional to braking rate, so it will take twice as long
to stop at half-service compare to full-service.
This is all approximate. The braking rates that get calibrated
during field testing are the full-service rate, the emergency rate,
and sometimes the minimum brake rate. Everything in between is
roughly linear but don't try to hold a straight edge up to the
curve or you'll be disappointed. Also, the relationship between
straight air pressure and brake rate changes at the transition
from dynamic to friction braking. It isn't supposed to, but I
challenge you to find a car that makes that transition perfectly.
Finally, if you have "dead motors" in the train, your braking rates
during dynamic will probably be a little less.
All that being said, since you are in school car, forget it,
unless you are planning to write a subway simulator game. You
won't have time to calculate speed-distance curves while you're
in the cab. Experience will tell you how much brake to grab and
when.
Dear Wado,
Oops, my e address is:
nycsubways@earthlink.net
I was on 6 the other day and for some reason the train was terminating at Zerega Ave. (does anyone have an idea why and how would it turn around.)
The strip map and inside sign correctly showed the destination, but the outside one displayed Parkchester.
Arti
...got on the N, manhattan bound, at 36th av.
Made it as far as 39th av before encountering a red signal.
No announcements, nothing... 20 minutes later I leave. Some people begging for free transfers at the booth (hello? unlimited metrocards? get with the 90's, now that it's no longer the 90's...).
walk over to 36th st G/R - huge crowd on the platform. More people than i've ever seen there before, since next to no one uses that stop. (probably should have gone straight to QP). Hop on an empty G to Queens Plaza.
Another huge crowd, packed to the brim E/F's, and the announcement that "no R trains are running to manhattan" - bingo - something died in 60th street tube.
I go upstairs, and there's a fire engine at the top of the steps. walk down to the N/7 at queens plaza, and there's 4 more fire trucks, plus a chief at the edge of the platform. No N trains at all (not even turning back to ditmars!)
I eventually got a 7 that was half full (with good ac) and a redbird at GC on the 6 (with not-so-good AC)... made it to work in an hour and a half - not bad for what's usually a 30 minute ride... (righhhhtttt...).
I suppose it could have been worse, i coulda been on whatever it is that's probably still in the tunnel right now. Anyone know what happened? did the brakes get stuck? train derail? It seemed pretty serious considering all the firemen at the stations.
-Joe
A little after 9am. Got on Manh.-bound R (R-46s) at Steinway. Sat with doors open for about 5 minutes. Don't know how long train was stopped b4 I got on. C/R announces to listen to further announcement @ 36 St. about whether or not train will use 63rd St. tube. @ 63rd St., I too notice the throngs on the platform. This is so unusual, I'm waiting for the platform to collapse, since it is not used to so much weight! C/R announces we will traverse 63rd St., due to "smoke condition in the tunnel [to 60th St. tube]," and that train will re-join R line @ 57th/7th. Also says we can get off @ 36th St. & wait for 'G' for service to QP. Of course, I know this means that it could be a good 10 mins. before that light green circle appears, and that the E/F would be jammed @ QP anyway. Other passengers not as familiar (or obsessed) with the subway all confused and annoyed. While riding thru connector, C/R announces for service to 53rd/Lex, transfer @ 21 St. for Q to Rock Ctr., then change for E or F. E? Thankfully, he corrects himself. Ride to and get off @ Lex. Ride interminable escalators (thank God the one bank of moving stairs that was working was going 'up') to street. Walk 2 blocks south on Lex to M102 bus.
Like you inferred, thank God for unlimited ride Metrocard!
you were probably on the R that left as I entered the station. i shoulda figured they'd go through 63rd st. at QP they stated that there simply 'were no R trains to manhattan'. the humidity must have got to my brain for believing that...
I could only wonder if there were so many firemen around QP, how many were closer to the tunnel?
I guess what they should have said was, "No 'R' trains to Manhattan from this station [QP]." I coulda waited for the train you got, but my philosophy is always:
When Normal Service Get F**ked-Up, Take The First Train That's Going In Your Direction Til You Get As Close As Possible and Worry About The Rest of Your Journey When You Get There. You Never Know If That Train Will Be the Last One For a While.
This is the same reason why, if 2 lines/services run on the same track, and the one other than the one I want comes, I take it and get off at the last possible transfer point. That way, if things screw-up, I'm as close as possible.
Let's say I'm going to Manhattan from Queens. I'm on the local, and want to switch to an express at QP. but I'm going to 8th Avenue and 42nd Street. What I really want is an 'E' train, but if an 'F' shows up, I take it to 5th Av./53 St. and wait for an 'E' there. That way, if something happens to the service, or it's just too damn late, I'm that much closer to my destination, making the ensuing bus or taxi trip as short as possible.
It's a good phiosophy, which I use a lot. It's pretty much exactly what i did with the G today (though if i knew things were as hairy as they were, i'd have taken it all the way down to the connection with L and came back uptown!)
I do that in the morning, G/R to Continental, E to Union TPK (it's always an E), F to Van Wyck Blvd. Sometimes the E goes local for a little longer than usual. Which brings me to another reason why this idea works: The train you don't want may end up being rerouted the way you want to go. A trains have been known to end up at 71/Continental, for example.
If you're going to 42nd-8th, and that Queens local you're on is an R, why not just ride it to Times Square and walk the block? And if it's a G, wouldn't it make more sense to wait a Queens Plaza for an E or an R, whichever comes first?
Glad you asked. I've been meaning to bring this up.
I've never actually brought a stopwatch and timed it, but that interminable fish-hook route the 'R' train takes between Queens Plaza station and the turnouts just inside the Queens end of the 60th Street tube seems excrutiatingly longer, in both directions, than the more "straight" route traversed by the 'E' train from QP to the 53rd Street tube, even with the stop at 23/Ely! The difference in time to reach Manhattan may actually be negligible, but my perception is that the 'R' crawls throught those tunnels, which were gerrymandered into the system in the 1950's. That's why, if I'm using the Broadway Line when traveling home to Queens, I always pray for an 'N' train rather than an 'R', even though both stops are equidistant from my home. On the 'N', you zoom throught the 60th St. tube (esp. if you're on R-32s!) and you're up the ramp and at Queensboro Plaza in no time. If you're on an 'R', you zoom through the tube and zig-zag your way underneath Bridge Plaza for another 2 minutes before reaching Queens Plaza. Even if your destination is beyond Queens/Queensboro Plaza not taking the straight route on this segment appears to add time to your trip.
This reminds me of another question.
At the 49th Street Station on the N/R Broadway Line (which by then is beneath 7th Avenue), at the "front" end of the Queens-bound platform is one of those red signs hanging from the ceiling, which tells the track numbers and the location of emergency exits. My question is, why does this sign read "BROADWAY LINE - IND"? IND? I mean, I know that Chrystie Street changed everything, but calling the N/R line in Manhattan "IND" is weird, especially since the only place trains from that trunk line run on IND trackage is in Queens. Or does this sign mean to imply, "Okay, T/O, if you punch "IND," and intend to run on the Queens IND, here are the IND-related track number designations for the Broadway Line..."?
Of course, I realize the designations "IRT", "BMT", and "IND" are obsolete now, what with the use of "A Division" and "B Division," but it appears that at some point the TA did refer to "The 49th Street Stop On The Broadway Line - IND." Again, weird.
I can believe the R takes longer than the E/F to reach Manhattan, but I can't believe, if you're going to 42nd and 8th, that it's worth it to get off an R at Queens Plaza unless an E is already waiting. Certainly it's not worth it if the next train to arrive is an F.
As for the IND sign, that sounds like a major blooper. The Broadway BMT is 100% BMT.
Good god I'm lucky. Yesterday was my last day of classes and tomorrow my finals start. I can only hope that they've got it cleared by tomorrow afternoon.
Dan
If there were fire engines there was probably a track fire in the 60th street tube.
Yesterday, Wed., 6/13., 5:05pm. Got on s/b R-142 '6' train @ 51 St. 1/2-way betw. 51 & GC, interior destination, strip light, & automatic announcement: "This is Elder Av." Pull into 42/GC. Automatic announcement/signs/strips: "Next stop Whitlock Av." Good thing I'm not blind.
Ahhhh, technology!
November 2000:
r142 6301.... Pulling into Times Square..
"This is... JACKSON AVENUE"
Thats because the TO or the CR set-up the TOD wrong
Makes sense.
In my job, that's what we and the techs call "User Error."
Another motto that pertains in this case is, "Garbage In, Garbage Out."
Ahhhhh, Incompetence!
Ahhhhh, Laziness!
Maybe, but the point is that if the conductor was still making the announcements, it would not have occurred. The technology doesn't make our ride any better.
Maybe, but the point is that if the conductor was still making the announcements, it would not have occurred.
The same lazy conductor would not have made annoucements at all.
The technology doesn't make our ride any better.
Then what the hell are you doing riding a subway? Stop bitching and get on a horse.
This is only on topic because the website in question is a transit web site.
I just got an E-mail from homestead telling me that they would soon be charging me to keep the current level of service which is their right however it is my right to leave them witch is what a plan on doing. My question to others is: does anyone know of a good free service that doesn't block pictures from going out. Also it should be stated that I know very little HTML thanks for the help.
I think most places are going to start charging for it, so the days of free websites (as well as all sorts of other free stuff on the web)are likely numbered.
you can learn html in maybe an hour or 2. it's not hard. i've had a few sites on rsinternet.com for 3 years now, rarely with any problem it's like $9 amonth, but you'll have plenty of space for as many photos as you like. I'm sure there are places out there that charge around $5 as well...
what's homestead asking for now that they're charging?
-Joe
"what's homestead asking for now that they're charging?"
$10 a month not that high but par that price i could register a domain name and use the AOL space I already have.
Somebody on this site mentioned Tripod 3 or 4 weeks ago. I went there and used it for my Baltimore and Cape May efforts.
Use Spaceports
They make you put up ad banners, but it's much less annoying then popups. You also get UNLIMITED space and even a CGI-BIN!!!
Oh, and they pay you for clicks on banners on your website.
Other than me, I've seen a few other people post about going. Who is? I look forward to meeting you.
BTW, is there any good food at the Rockways?
I am going, I'll be wearing a gray t-shirt with probably long baggy cargo pants or billabong shorts, with my MTA vest and a blue bandana and a light blue yankees hat. If you see me say hi, food in the rockaways...Mott Avenue there's a McDonalds but on Rockaway Pk....nothing but a bunch of diners, might be a take out pizzeria.
See you there!
"but on Rockaway Pk....nothing but a bunch of diners, might be a take out pizzeria."
There is a Wendy's a couple of blocks from the station. Turn right when you exit.
Bill "Newkirk"
What exactly is the Nostalgia train...where is it starting, when, where is it going, and how long is it running?
=)
I wanted to go on the trip in August. My spouse-to-be even said it was OK to go. But she won't postpone the wedding, so I can't.
-Hank :)
One of the TSSs sent me this from the Post. Did anybody see this happening?
http://www.nypost.com/pets/32473.htm
It's for real. CBS News did a piece on the guy and the minature horse.
Very interesting and moving. The horse is very patient and intelligent. She wears special "tennis shoes" on various floorings, answers the door at her master's house (he has some vision, but is legally blind. He cannot see well in daylight, but has somewhat better vision in low light. He has a large property very well suited for a miniature horse.) and is not adverse to strangers, which they attract quite often.
It's in the same grouping as hearing ear animals. All "guide animals" fall into the same catagory on most transit systems.
I saw that special too, but didn't think they'd be in NY at all (doesn't they guy live in maine or something?).
It costs a lot of money to train a guide animal, so if they can train animals that inheritly live longer...
To answer a related question: Since the horse is a service animal we must allow entry into the system. Our training refers to "Service animals" and not "dogs".
Of course, if a service answer starts snarling or (in the case of the horse, bucking wildly) we can exclude the animal from the system.Of course, we'd probably call for a supervisor since I am sure they'd complain.
Does your training also tell you how to identify a service animal? I was always under the impression it was by the harness they wore. If so, how do people with gain access with dogs on a leash (or worse yet, no leash at all)?
We are instructed to ask and accept their word. DOgs on leashes or loose dogs(such as in a tote bag) are illegal and we do tell them no dogs. They say "thanks" and go in anyway. If there is a cop around we tell the cop and many times the cop lets them in anyway.
If you want to see dogs on rails - ride the LIRR Montauk branch on Thursday or Friday night. Mosy of the dogs are well behaved. It's the same as when I see them on the subway system. usually the dogs are better behaved than the children.
It's the same as when I see them on the subway system. usually the dogs are better behaved than the children.
That's not saying much.
ARe those two legged dogs you're referring to????
:-)
If you want to see dogs on rails - ride the LIRR Montauk branch on Thursday or Friday night. Most of the dogs are well behaved. And for sure, they don't have a 6-pack of Coors on the seat next to them or mess up the bathrooms. It's the same as when I see them on the subway system. usually the dogs are better behaved than the children.
There was one time I requested a person with dogs leave the station. I was at Smith/9th and this guy starts roaming the fare control arae with two pit bull/rotweilers under toe. Teh dogs were tugging huim around and the other customers were terrorized. I asked him to leave. Fortunately a cop was in the station and ordered the customer to leave the system.
The other day on NJT someone tried to bring a huge dog on board and the crew refused the customer entry on the train at NY Penn.
As anyone who takes a LIRR MU from Penn Station during the evening rush can attest, the overcrowding at the doors by people seeking to get choice seats is almost unbearable, as is the pushing and shoving once the doors open.
I've often wondered - why are LIRR trains still being built with only two doors on each side? The IRT gave up the 2-door practice in the 1920's to ease entry and exit by passengers. Seems to me that a third door would help.
And also - why weren't gap fillers installed at Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn? When you exit from the last of a 10 car train, the gap is perhaps a foot wide. Its an accident waiting to happen. Why were't gap fillers installed here?
>>> why are LIRR trains still being built with only two doors on each side? The IRT gave up the 2-door practice in the 1920's to ease entry and exit by passengers. <<<
Two doors allow more seats. The basic difference between a commuter line and a subway is the length of the trip. Commuter trains provide more seats for the passengers, Subways provide easier access and higher total load of passengers. This is the same reason suburban buses frequently do not have a back door.
Tom
The last car on the 1/9 at Chambers has the same problem (gap).
The LIRR has only two doors because it is an RR. Get rid of too many seats for more doors and you have lots of unhappy riders. The solution to the problem is to have trains in the station at the earliest possible time, but the volume of train traffic is so great I doubt they can make this any more efficient.
They could also switch up the track assignments to a random cycle, so that no one is on the platform before the train opens its doors. Therefore, the bottleneck is moved to the stairs but once on platform level there are many doors to choose from.
There are no gap fillers at Flatbush Terminal.
Non rush they keep the head cars closed until Jamaica.
Well in addtion to the standard LIRR practice of the head car being the crew car >G<.
So....why aren't there gap fillers at Flatbush Avenue? The gap between the train and the platform at the back of the train is about a foot wide, maybe more. Its an accident waiting to happen and believe me, there's a legion of lawyers out there just waiting to sue the MTA if someone gets hurt.
I know the ambulance chasers would like to descend on the MTA if someone fell into the gap, but if someone got their foot caught in a gap filler as you call it, the law firm of Jackl, Jackl, Vulture, Hyena and Slug would celebrate wildly. Same thing over at Dewey, Cheatem and Howe. You have to think about this, and I bet the MTA did so too.
For anyone who's interested in track building, the Rockhill Trolley Museum Website has a write up with some excellent pictures of our recently completed (but not yet electrified) 2900 ft. track extension. The document takes you through the work chronologically up to now. The page has been updated since the last time I mentioned it on SubTalk.
KP
Excellent pictures! Nice straight track... I suspect some great full parallel running when that stretch opens in the fall.
Great Pix, Pete. I'm looking forward to October.
That's a great way to spend the weekends...working on the rails.
Hi all, I have a few more questions about the NYC subway system that should help me plan by day at the subway better. Thanks already to those who have helped me out below.
Here ya go: What is the deepest station? The oldest station? The newest station? The longest tunnel? The longest bridge? The busiest platform (train traffic wise?) Thanks again!
I can fill you in on some...
The deepest station is 191st on the 1 (broadway) line. The oldest station is the City Hall Loop (sort of abandoned, it has been on and off from mainline track, no revenue service from it but the 6 trains use it to turn around and go to the opposite direction). There hasn't been any "new" stations added, I would go with Jamaica Parsons Archer as the newest...if anyone can come up with a newer one that would be appreciated. Don't know longest tunnel, longest bridge is not really a bridge rather, but it sort of is in a sense, it is a strip of tracks on the A train after Howard Beach, very nice scenery. I don't know the busiest platform....
Gracias
In terms of number of different train lines, DeKalb Av must be one of the busiest. It has four tracks coming in from the Manhattan Bridge and two from the "tunnel" in the north; then, ultimately four going down 4th Av and two down Flatbush Av to the south. Today, particularly at rush hour, you have the B, D, Q, M, N and R trains converging there.
An interesting transfer point is on Fulton St, Manhattan. The 4 and 5 are under Broadway; the 2 and 3 under William; the J/Z and M under Nassau; and the A and C crossing perpendicular under Fulton. Free transfers all around.
On the latter station (called Broadway/Nassau), they had Japanese style people pushers to stuff the passengers into the Brooklyn bound trains at PM rush hour back in the early 1970's. I wonder if they still do.
The newest station(s) are Lexington Avenue/63rd St, Roosevelt Island and 21st St Queensbridge.
The busiest platform - train trafficwise is Grand Central on the 4,5,6
(at least I see it that way)
What is the deepest station?
191 Street on the 1/9. Highest is Smith/9 Sts on the F/G.
The oldest station?
There isn't just one oldest station in the system. The following are the IRT stations that opened in 1904.
City Hall station (loop)
#6 line stations between Brooklyn Bridge and 33rd Street,
Grand Central and Times Square shuttle stations,
#1 line stations between 50th Street and 145th Street.
The newest station?
63/Lexington, Roosevelt Island, 21 St-Queensbridge.
The longest tunnel?
The longest tube is on the L between 1st Avenue and Bedford Avenue.
The busiest platform?
The busiest is Grand Central on the 4/5/6/7/S.
How do I get to that station. According to my maps on the MTA site it is only serviced by the Q which doesnt appear to run in the weekends (per the timetable anyway). Thanks so much.
The station you're talking about is Roosevelt Island. Roosevelt Avenue is served by the E, F, G, and R trains, and there's a connection to the 7 line's 74th Street station there. Roosevelt Islandcan be accessed by the Q during weekdays. During late nights, it's usually the F, and on weekends it's either the E, F, R, or a combination of those three.
Check service signs in the 6th Av line stations. The 63rd St line stations are served 24 hours a day either by the Q, a shuttle or a rerouted F train.
This weekend it's the R.
When a trolley car takes a seitch, how does the trolley pole know which way to goas it runs along the wire. Same question goes for trackless trolleys.
Don't know about trolleys, but trackless trolleys use switches.
Arti
Trackless trolleys use the switch - when the trolley pass the switch with electrical engine on - it switches the direction, when the trolley pass the switch with engine off - default direction.
The same is for trolleys, but sometime wire switch is in front of the switch on the rails, and after the trolley goes to the proper direction, pole just follows the direction.
Since the pole is so far to the back of the carbody, the car has already changed direction enough to "pull" the pole in the right direction. That's not the case when backpoling; since the pole is leading the car, it goes whichever way it wants to.
If the frog has been positioned correctly, the pole will always go to the straight side, but if the frog is tilted slightly the pole will follow to the tilted side. BTW, Backpoling (or "pushing the pole") is easy with a wheel, but must be walked with a shoe.
I'm sure you'd be appalled to know that we often backpole sliders
(shoes) at up to a whopping 5 MPH with no ill effects!
I'm not appalled, I'm somewhat flabbergasted!!! Shoes tend to hang at properly adjusted frogs unless somebody walks the pole, unless the wire is very low, 12-13 feet or so (in barns, etc). I've seen unwalked shoes hang and stand the pole almost straight up in Philadelphia, but then the generally crappy condition of Philly wire tension-wise leaves the wire in a pretty doopy state 12 months out of the year.
BSM uses wheels (we actually make our own, now that 4 inch trolley wheels are almost unavaiable for older cars. PCC trolley wheels are all bolt-ons, which is not reallly suitable for cars of the early 20th century period.) and Baltimore Transit never used shoes except on Trolley Coaches (1936 on). We actually backed single end cars from the end of the line at 27th Street before the loops were installed at speeds in the 25-30 MPH range with never a dewirement or hang.
Branford has sliders on most of the rapid transit cars because
of the current draw, plus the Red Arrow high-speed equipment.
We never back pole at high speeds, and in the yard I usually stick
my hand out the window and hold on to the rope to yank it down
if it starts to catch. So long as the carbons are good in the
sliders and the brass ears aren't too rough from arcing, things
tend to be OK.
The trolley wheel or slider shoe passes through an overhead
fitting called a wire frog, which has cast ridges to steer
the flange of the wheel or shoe. They are not movable; because
the car body and the trolley pole are already angled towards the
track they are turning out towards, the wheel either follows the
straight path or the turnout path. The ridges keep the wheel from
splitting the difference and de-wiring.
Trackless trolley frogs are similar, except they have the additional
problem of making one wire cross another of opposite polarity,
i.e. a dead short. They have an insulating piece built in.
Gee & I always thought it was done by PFM ... Pure F___ Magic,
seriously thanks for the detailed answer.
Mr t__:^)
As reported in this week's Crain's New York Business, the MTA has announced it's 7-to-Javits plan now has the Flushing line turning down 7 Ave and turning west at 34 St, which "would include stops between 34th Street and Times Square." No mention of how it would relate to the 1/2/3/9 or just how many stations would be crammed into those eight blocks was made.
Wouldn't that mean abandoning/destroying 7's Times Square station?
Arti
Maybe the 7 will need a new station, and maybe not. If I recall correctly, Times Square is, basically at Seventh Av. Where exactly in that complex are the 7's platforms? Turning down Seventh Av may mean under the street, or it may mean deep under buildings, with stations having elevator shafts and escalators leading to the sidewalk. If that is the case, there will be a lot of underpinning work needed to safeguard building foundations. That will, if true, make the line more expensive.
That'll never happen...
the 1239 is right over the 7 @ TS. to connect it to the uptown 1-2-3-9, i doubt it could stop at TS (unless they did some massive work on the 1-2-3-9, and a tight loop past the 7 platform...), and i doubt that'd fly...
There's an extra bit of tunnel just beyond the platform though - thus making the easiest (and least disruptive) way to go - digging a new tunnel under 42nd (or whichever street it's under at that point (41?), turning south on 11th av, i suppose...
I think it'd be a lot cooler to bring the L up onto the old west side freight line, and have subway access that way - or perhaps do both... ...though that too ain't about to happen.
I based my observation on the track map publised on this site. Take a look, based on that it extends beyond 7th Ave.
Arti
Yes, you're right. Well, I wonder what the TA actually has in mind.
Is it possible they want to split the 7 into two trains? For example, one train terminates at Times Square, while the other turns down 7th Avenue, and then east on 34th St and then on to Javits?
I am speculating only - I don't know how plausible the above idea is.
It's really hard to tell what they're thinking with this idea. Didn't the contract for prelimiary study of 7-to-Javits go out only a couple of months ago? It even seems hard to believe an alternative would be picked already, especially such a poor one.
Personally, I like the idea of extending the Canarsie line to connect with the High Line, but NIMBYs won't hear of trains running there again, and CSX has already said its future doesn't include rail transport.
CSX just wants to be rid of it. Of course, they want to unload it in whatever way is most beneficial to CSX.
[Is it possible they want to split the 7 into two trains? For example, one train terminates at Times Square, while the other turns down 7th Avenue, and then east on 34th St and then on to Javits? ]
I think you onto something. Javits obviously doesn't need the service level of the Flushing line.
Arti
Javits obviously doesn't need the service level of the Flushing line.
It could. The extension wouldn't sreve only the convention center; it would be the sole subway access to the already growing west side. Development on the west side will take off even more once a plan for the extension is approved.
[It could. ]
Do you realize that the capacity is around 34000 pax per hour during rush hours.
Arti
If the MTA actually breaks groundon a Javits 7 extension, developers will break ground on high rises. The effect will be similar to what happened in Jersey City around the Newport/Pavonia PATH station, or Roosevelt Island, or in Bethesda MD at the Metrorail Red Line. This being Manhattan especially, these buildings will be set up so that thousands of people can walk out of lobbies in the morning and right into the subway terminal.
One of the reasons I prefer routing a Javitz extension west before turning and heading south is because it introduces subway service into a new area of Manhattan. Conversely, following underneath the West Side IRT ROW untill 34th street duplicates a great deal of existing service. I feel new subway service could help spur development west of 8th Avenue between 34th and 42nd Street.
How is the are bounded by 8th and (say) 10th Avenues, between 34th and 42nd Streets, zoned? I don't do a lot of work in Manhattan, and as such, I'm only familiar with zoning in the outer boroughs. So please pardon my speculation here.
So what if you extend the subway west before turning south...? Zoning issues could spur NIMBY fears that a subway would bring enroachment of high-rise commercial buildings out of the Times Square district. On the other hand, if zoning secures a resiential neighbourhood, YIMBYs (YES! In My BackYard) would cheer higher real estate prices.
MATT-2AV
The trouble with just extending the tracks westward from the existing stubs is that the bumper is up against the wall of the 8th Av 42 St lower platform.....in fact, some people believed the City built that platform so that the IRT could NOT extend westward with the Flushing line!!! (Now I bet they're sorry.)
Since that platform is abandoned (at least in theory), I suppose the engineering can be worked out to destroy it so that the 7 can just be extended easily.
SickTransitGloria,
The tail tracks extending westward from the Flushing-Line IRT platform have always intrigued me, and it was just recently that someone here informed me that they extend ~800 or so feet right to the wall of the unused lower level 8th Avenue IND platform at 42nd Street.
Please find below a copy of my previous post on the subject at hand. It was burried elsewhere in this thread. In this post, I assert that if the MTA is willing and able to part with this unused fifth track, it might be an engineering help, not hindrance, to extending the Flushing line westward. The big question mark is regarding at what elevations the slabs are for the flushing line and the lower level IND line.
Thank you for the information on the possibly intentional blockage by the IND. It wouldn't surprise me.
MATT-2AV
***
Previous Post: "Most Logical Routing for 7 to Javitz?" (#228496)
***
I have to agree with just about everyone else's sentiments in this thread so far; extending the 7 train under 7th Avenue doesn't
seem like the most logical routing to me either.
I assert that the proposal by Gotham Bus Co et al. of extending the Crosstown IRT westward under 41st Street, and then
turning and south under 9th/10th avenue to the Javitz Center appears to have more merits.
I had previously inquired about the tail tracks on the Flushing Line that extend past the Times Square platform to the west.
Someone on this board (whose name I forgot. Sorry!) informed me that they extend ~800 or so feet right to the wall of the 8th
Avenue IND lower level platofrm.
The lower level platform on 8th Avenue is no longer in service. If the MTA is willing to part with this superfluous fifth platform,
why not go right on through it down 41st?
Here are some back of the envelope benefits that I see to the heading west before turning south alternate:
1) Subway service is provided to areas that are currently without service. This could be a major political benefit needed to help
push the project through. In contrast, routing under 7th Avenue follows current subway ROW, and thus could be said to
duplicate existing service.
2) If the MTA is willing to part with the lower level IND platofrm at 8th Avenue, it could provide an excellent staging area for
construction before its eventual demolition. Simplicity in staging means less inconvenience to the existing system. Tunneling
could start from an abandoned lower level platform, and almost the entire line could be completed without any disruption to the
7 right up until the connection with the tail tracks is made.
3) If the MTA is unwilling or unable to part with this platform, then perhaps the Flushing Line extension could drop to a grade
below the lower level IND platform.
4) The southbound turn would be constructed in an area with presumably less subsurface infrastructure. The turn will require a
large radius, taking it under existing structures. The fewer and smaller structures there are, the less underpinning work needs to
be done, as Ron mentioned.
5) The extended Flushing line would already be aligned in a southbound direction by the time it reaches the Javitz center,
making future extensions to a potential West Side stadium (kind of right across the street, I guess) or other points south more
feasible.
However, there may be some hidden costs to the proposal we have outlined here on this board. In fact, the very nature of the
originally proposed routing under 7th Avenue causes me great suspicion about what obstacles may be under the ground west of
8th Avenue.
The two main questions I am trying to find answers to are:
1) Does anyone know what lies under the ground west of 8th Avenue in the 34th to 42nd street vicinity?
2) Does anyone know what specific elevation the Flushing tail tracks and lower level IND platform are at?
Thanks,
MATT-2AV
2) Does anyone know what specific elevation the Flushing tail tracks and lower level IND platform are at?
Not unless someone's come up with new information since the last time this subject was beaten to death on this board :-)
Seriously, there has been some speculation, based on some approximate relative measurements taken by Todd Glickman, that the tail tracks may actually extend to a level BELOW that of the lower platform. Since he wasn't able to access the tail tracks himself, though, he was not able to confirm or disprove the theory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For that matter, assuming the two tunnels are roughly the same elevation and the lower level of 42 St/8 Ave could be demolished/modified, it would seem logical to have the Flushing line use that ROW (and bit of existing tunnel) and turn down 8 Ave to 34 St, thereby not affecting the Times Sq station.
It seems to me that this has been suggested here, along with a connection from the 8th Ave tracks into the Penn Sta trackage leading into the yard across the street from JJ.
I'm not too worried about anti-subway NIMBY in that area. I think there are already enough YIMBYs so that won't be an issue.
However, your points about a westerly direcion vs. the current comments are certainly valid.
On busy convention days it easily could.
Unfortunately the TA seems incapable of adjusting service levels on a day-by-day basis where appropriate. Just look at the Javits-bound M34 and M42.
[Unfortunately the TA seems incapable of adjusting service levels on a day-by-day basis where appropriate]
But don't they do that during baseball games?
Arti
I don't know; baseball is of little concern to me.
Or are you suggesting that the TA increases bus service to Javits during baseball games? I could believe that.
No, I'm suggesting that in some instances they seem to react to unusual demand.
Arti
could the Javits Center support subway service
On busy convention days it easily could.
Unfortunately the TA seems incapable of adjusting service levels on a day-by-day basis where appropriate. Just look at the Javits-bound M34 and M42.
One problem with the Javits Center is that it's simply too small for today's mega-conventions. Eventually it'll have to be expanded, supplemented or even replaced, or else New York is going to keep losing large conventions. Extending the 7 (or the L) will be an excellent and possibly indispensable idea if Javits is to be expanded. If it's supplemented by a new convention center at a different location, or especially if it's replaced by a new center built elsewhere, the subway extension will have lost much of its reason for being.
I thought that the JJ's too-strong unions and NYC's lack of reasonably priced hotel space were the main reasons JJ was losing business, more so even than the lack of flexibility as to size.
[...now has the Flushing Line turning down 7th Ave and west at 34th St, which would "include stops between 34th Street and Times Square." No mention of how it would relate to the 1/2/3/9 or how many stations would be crammed into the eight blocks was made.]
My comments:
1. Obviously, the governor (who directed MTA to devise that plan) has never actually seen the Times Square station, or any other. That station is CENTERED on 7th Avenue, which would require either blowing out Times Square (including underpinning the 7th Avenue and Broadway Lines to prevent collapse) or putting the curve at 8th Avenue instead. I vote for the latter.
2. Any stops between 34th Street and Times Square would be silly. The station entrances at 40th Street (7th and 8th Avenues) are walkably close to those at 34th/Seventh and 35th/Eighth. Maybe George's "34th Street" was intended to mean "the Javits Center" instead.
3. It's not even eight blocks - it's SEVEN blocks. The Flushing Line is under 41st Street when it reaches Times Square.
4. Why not just keep the Flushing Line under 41st Street, build a new station at 10th Avenue, and then curve down 11th Avenue to Javits? (The line should be deep enough to avoid conflicting with the Lincoln Tunnel.) Maybe keep going to 23rd? Maybe continue to 14th and hook up with the Canarsie Line?
How about just extending the 7 to a station at 9th Ave, descending down, curving a bit, stopping at 11th Ave and about 39th St, and then going through the 3rd tube of the Linclon Tunnel or a new tunnel entirely to a giant Park&Ride and intermodal transfer in New Jersey? That would solve the problem of Javits access, provide a second station for the bus terminal, and relieve the traffic on the Lincoln Tunnel by allowing people to park their cars in NJ and take the train in. The NJ station would also be located at or near the HBLR station for a convenient transfer to many other destinations.
After seeing how crowded the bus lane is getting i love that idea. NJT needs another transfer for its buses and it doesnt look like they even had that idea for the transfer. I wonder how much it costs to do? it shouldnt be that much 5-8 billion paid off over 15-20 years
That will never happen because,T/O 's will then be considered engineers which means they jump to amtrak and Lirr pay scales. That will never happen!!!!!!!!!
. . . T/O 's will then be considered engineers . . . .
How did PATH solve this problem?
I have to agree with just about everyone else's sentiments in this thread so far; extending the 7 train under 7th Avenue doesn't seem like the most logical routing to me either.
I assert that the proposal by Gotham Bus Co et al. of extending the Crosstown IRT westward under 41st Street, and then turning and south under 9th/10th avenue to the Javitz Center appears to have more merits.
I had previously inquired about the tail tracks on the Flushing Line that extend past the Times Square platform to the west. Someone on this board (whose name I forgot. Sorry!) informed me that they extend ~800 or so feet right to the wall of the 8th Avenue IND lower level platofrm.
The lower level platform on 8th Avenue is no longer in service. If the MTA is willing to part with this superfluous fifth platform, why not go right on through it down 41st?
Here are some back of the envelope benefits that I see to the heading west before turning south alternate:
1) Subway service is provided to areas that are currently without service. This could be a major political benefit needed to help push the project through. In contrast, routing under 7th Avenue follows current subway ROW, and thus could be said to duplicate existing service.
2) If the MTA is willing to part with the lower level IND platofrm at 8th Avenue, it could provide an excellent staging area for construction before its eventual demolition. Simplicity in staging means less inconvenience to the existing system. Tunneling could start from an abandoned lower level platform, and almost the entire line could be completed without any disruption to the 7 right up until the connection with the tail tracks is made.
3) If the MTA is unwilling or unable to part with this platform, then perhaps the Flushing Line extension could drop to a grade below the lower level IND platform.
4) The southbound turn would be constructed in an area with presumably less subsurface infrastructure. The turn will require a large radius, taking it under existing structures. The fewer and smaller structures there are, the less underpinning work needs to be done, as Ron mentioned.
5) The extended Flushing line would already be aligned in a southbound direction by the time it reaches the Javitz center, making future extensions to a potential West Side stadium (kind of right across the street, I guess) or other points south more feasible.
However, there may be some hidden costs to the proposal we have outlined here on this board. In fact, the very nature of the originally proposed routing under 7th Avenue causes me great suspicion about what obstacles may be under the ground west of 8th Avenue.
The two main questions I am trying to find answers to are:
1) Does anyone know what lies under the ground west of 8th Avenue in the 34th to 42nd street vicinity?
2) Does anyone know what specific elevation the Flushing tail tracks and lower level IND platform are at?
Thanks,
MATT-2AV
Here's what I like about the idea:
It could allow for a track connection between the (7) and its sister IRTs the (1)(2)(3)(9)...maybe.
:-) Andrew
Pure Unadulterated Horse feathers!
The Ta can't swap the Manny B. on time. They are N E V E R going to
the Javits Center Via the #7 or any thig else!
The best bet would be to extend the "L" on the 14th St line west from Eigth Ave. Then resurrect the West side High Line. Thats a westside service and developement catalyst. This talk about the #7 is just chum for the population.
avid
You said: >> They are N E V E R going to
the Javits Center Via the #7 or any thig else! <<
And then you go on to mention using the High Line(presumably for a two-car shuttle), which could easily have its northern terminus just north of the PennCentral Yards, right next to...the Javits Center. Perhaps, even allowing for connection to PennStation.
Good idea, sir. I like it. As long as we're harboring the idea of having our pie-in-the-sky and eating it, too... they could even get rolling stock onto the HighLine via the West Side yards. Hell, they could even rebuild its old terminus in the Farley Post Office Annex...the new Penn Station.
=Rednoise
Optimists build castles in the sky.
Dreamers live in them.
Realists collect the rent.
with all this, i hope the 7 will get the r142's
As shown on the schedule, the Z train operates inbound only during the morning rush, and outbound only during the afternoon. What happens when an inbound Z train arrives at Broad Street? Do the operating personnel change the front and side letter code signs on every car before the train heads back to Jamaica? Or do they depart with the signs still set to Z? It seems that there wouldn't be much time to change all the signs before the train would have to leave (not to mention what happens if the train arrives late and has even less time to change ends and depart).
Just curious.
Jim D.
The signs remain set on 'Z'.
After making their Manhattan-bound trip, Z trains heading back north "drop out" at Eastern Pkwy, and are then laid up in East New York Yard.
In the event that there is a J service delay requiring drop outs to head to Parsons/Archer in service, the signs are changed (if time permits) on arrival at Parsons if they are to stay in service for the rest of the day.
The WMATA Board of Directors has approved the permanant extension of rail service until 2 AM Friday and Saturday nights (into Saturday and Sunday mornings). This comes at the end of a 12 month pilot program in which ridership between 1 AM and 2 AM exceeded expectations.
Originally, Metro closed at 12 AM every night. The board set up a pilot program that kept the Metro open Friday and Saturday nights until 1 AM beginning November 5, 1999. When that proved sucessful, the 1 AM was made permanant and the second hour was added on an experimental basis for a 12 month period.
This puts MetroRail hours at the following:
Sunday: 8 AM-12 AM
Monday-Thursday: 5:30 AM-12 AM
Friday: 5:30 AM-2 AM Saturday
Saturday 8 AM-2 AM Sunday
As part of the service extension, extra maintenance crews have been hired and some track work takes place during revenue service hours, resulting in the single-tracking of trains.
While any extension of service hours is welcome, not starting Saturday and Sunday service until 8:00 am is a glaring deficiency. If trains can run until 2:00 am for revelers, then surely weekend workers on the early shift deserve subway service as well. The ultimate goal should be service 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Can't do 24/7 service because its a two track system.
I think a late night bus system could be developed. It would consist of 8 routes, all starting at Metro Center where free, timed transfers could be made. The routes would go from Metro Center to:
Shady Grove
Glenmont
Addison Road
Franconia-Springfield via Huntington
Vienna
New Carrollton
Branch Avenue
Greenbelt
The routes would follow the tracks and stops would be made at or near stations.
I don't know where the buses and money would come from though.
Don't let them lie to you! Two track/24 hour service works in Chicago, late night users sometimes face delays or reroutes when they go to single track, still better than shelling out $20 for a taxi.
True. I also don't think the ridership base exists just yet.
Au contraire, the market would show up if the service existed. I can;t tell you how many times I have declined going to late music in SF because BART closes at midnight and often the concerts don't break 'til 1AM. As noted by others the two track excuse is bogus--the real reason IMHO is a combined race/class disinterest in serving 'night people'. Both of these systems were designefd not as urban subways but as 'suburban commuter trains' patterned after LIRR et al.
They need to keep this thing going around the clock like they do in New York. Besides, who gets home by 2 a.m. anymore?
E_DOG
Can't do it because its a two track system.
I think a late night bus system could be developed. It would consist of 8 routes, all starting at Metro Center where free, timed transfers could be made. The routes would go from Metro Center to:
Shady Grove
Glenmont
Addison Road
Franconia-Springfield via Huntington
Vienna
New Carrollton
Branch Avenue
Greenbelt
The routes would follow the tracks and stops would be made at or near stations.
I don't know where the buses and money would come from though.
Now wait a minute, the old Els of the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries in New York and Chicago ran around the clock and they only had two tracks. Are you trying to say that a "modern" two track system such as D.C. can't handle it? No offense, but this makes no sense.
E_DOG
Means they can't handle it given the current cash situation, but that might not sound good.
Nearly eveything's possible if you can throw enough money at it.
This program, the first episode of which was shown on Australian TV last night, 15 June, included several shots of the MTA. These included what appeared to be an elevated structure and glimpses of what seemed to be R 38 and R 42 or R 68 equipment.
This series seems to have been made by a Canadian/Dutch production company for international consumption, and may not yet have been shown in the US. I've personally got no idea of the area encompassed by "North Brooklyn". I'd never the less appreciate anyone's views on the lines which might have been featured in these shots. My uneducated guess is that they could have been the L and the AC.
Thanks
Yep, saw the program on A & E the other night. It appears that the cars are R40's and R42's, probably from the L, or possibly the J/M/Z.
Thanks. I only saw the half way up fluted sides of the cars I assumed were R38s, forgetting that R40s also have fluted sides.
Can someone answer any or all of these questions?
1. Trains detour through the 63 St Tunnel between 36 St, Queens and 57 St-7 Av
Will R32s be running on the R? If so, how long is the longest time I might have to wait for one? I take it the R is running local on Queens Boulevard. I also assume the E and/or F are not going thru 63rd Street but since they have so many noticies pertaining to 63rd Street on the MTA website, it is hard to figure out what is what.
2. Coney Island-bound trains run on the N from 36 St to Stillwell Av
I assume its all Hippos running that. What exactly do the trains do? Run down 4th Avenue to 59th Street, stop there, go onto the middle Sea Beach track, and then crossover to the West End at Coney Island? How long is the layover at Coney Island? How long does the express trip down the Sea Beach take? Which trip is better? The N on the local or the B on the express?
Thanks very much, in advance.
Also, when is the first northbound M train from Bay Parkway.
Yes, R-32s will be running the R. There were a fair amount of them today, hopefully the same will be true Saturday.
As an added bonus to the 63rd street reroute, N & R trains will be skipping 49st as well as the local stops below 34st, which means that the southbound R will run on the express track for its entire usable length.
The E and F are not running through the connector, and they will go full-express. This means, of course, that anyone boarding at 36st has no chance of getting to the E and F (therefore no Queens Plaza or G or 4 5 6.). Between 65th and Steinway they can cross over at Steinway, but after Steinway it's the point of no return.
The B will run 4th ave express (possibly express on local after 36th) and after 59th it will simply cross over to the single usable Sea Beach express track (essentially wrong-railing) and merge with the N briefly after 86th, where it then crosses over to the West End terminal. There is only a 50/50 shot at getting something other than a hippo on the N. You probably won't get slants on the B, since now that the B no longer goes to Queensbridge the main situation which causes this phenomenon doesn't occur.
And, you missed a major GO for next week: F trains run express and skip Smith-9 through Bergen, G split in two sections (Queens/Bed-nost, bn/Hoyt-scherm). Though it's middays only.
I saw that one.
Any idea on how long I would be waiting for an R32? What is the frequency for the (R)arely on a Saturday anyway?
I think that "frequency" may not be the best choice of words...
Dan
True.
The frequency of the trains according to the MTA timetable is 8-12 minutes on a Sunday.
1. Go for the ride on the R. With luck you'll get a railfan window and will get a great view of the 63rd Street Tunnel stuff.
2. The B runing express on the N is good if you are interested in riding on tracks that aren't normally used in revenue service. Besides that, this GO stinks, because the hippos are blind and it'll be the slowest West End Express you've ever been on. A much better trip is when the N runs express over the B, for all the exact opposite reasons.
I can imagine.
Here's the proof from NYCTA!
We give a customer the envelope because we are instructed ro give them an envelope.
Todd, That's not news, just SOP.
The MC has a date on it ... it's a little more then a year from the date you bought it. You have a year after that date to redeem it ... that's more then two years.
BTW, We, QSC, deals with Annette & others in that office all the time. It's part of OUR friendly service when a customer loses a card they bought from us. That office "scans" the card based on the serial number & determines how much of the value on the card was used, then they kill the card (put it on the negitive list). Then we go to another office in the TA & ask for OUR money back (we bought the card from the TA). We then refund that amount to the customer.
P.S. We getting out of the retail business July 1st. Why, well for years we sold thousands & thousands of customers express "tickets". These became a "Travel Card" version of the MetroCard, which became two flavors of regular MetroCards ($30 Value & $120 Express Unlimited), anyhow more & more folks are buying their MetroCards somewhere else, so our clerks are spending a lot of time waiting for a call. The point, it just doesn't make good business since for us to keep providing this SERVICE, so we're stopping ... with nycDOT permission of course.
Mr t__:^)
I figured there was a good chance the card was of no value. (It wasn't mine -- it was given to me by a friend who visited NYC a few years ago and just found it. You don't think I'd keep an old card around that long, do you?)
But the Station Agent told me to send it back "in this envelope for a refund." If he knew that it would be rejected, I would have accepted his statement, and not wasted my time, Annette's time, and the cost of generating, printing, and mailing her response to me.
Is there a MetroCard info brochure that the SA can give out that states MCs must be redeemed within one year of expiration?
If they gave you that, you would have ANOTHER reason to yell at them thru that little slot :-(
I once made a similar mistake ... had a bunch of Jackie Robison MC that I sent back for a re-fund, we're talking over 100 cards. I thought they belonged to QSC, so I was just doing the right thing. The TA replied that they were "test" cards given to us when the new farebox was introduced. Boy, I wish I had those cards now form October of 1997 ! That's the collector in me talking.
[You don't think I'd keep an old card around that long, do you?]
I have a dear out-of-town friend who has to turn in 11 of the 12 monthly Commuter cards to get a discount on his auto insurance. I love to tell the story about the two cards in my collection that are his 12th cards for that year ... I told it yesterday to two TA visitors from the Woodside O/H shop.
Mr t__:^)
Your dear friend may have another "12th card" later this summer :-)
I have a dear out-of-town friend who has to turn in 11 of the 12 monthly Commuter cards to get a discount on his auto insurance.
Anybody know if any similar discounts are available in NYC? I work at home, but if I can get a substantial discount on my insurance in exchange for buying a year's supply of 30-day MetroCards, I'm first in line.
In Massachusetts, you turn in 11 of 12 consecutive monthly MBTA passes to your insurance agent, and get 15% off your comprehensive insurance.
Comprehensive? That's odd. Doesn't comprehensive cover damage specifically when the car is not in motion? If anything, a car that isn't used for daily commuting should have a higher charge for comprehensive (no, I won't suggest it to the insurance companies!) and a lower charge for everything else.
I'm told that in Israel, Sabbath observers get a 1/7 (or so) discount on their car insurance. Of course, if the car is in use on the Sabbath, it's uninsured at that time. (There are a few very limited occasions when driving a car is permitted even for Sabbath observers -- generally speaking, when a human life is in question. I wonder whether a car driven in such a scenario is covered. I can just imagine the insurance adjusters consulting with the local rabbi!)
>>> If anything, a car that isn't used for daily commuting should have a higher charge for comprehensive <<<
What is the logic in that? A car that is used for commuting is spending its days away from its home garage parked on a street or in a parking lot where all sorts of misadventures could befall it.
Tom
Home garage? What's that? My car is parked on the street whenever it's not in motion (and my insurance company, unfortunately, knows it).
Comprehensive covers damage while the car is parked. The less often the car is driven, the more often it's parked.
Higher mileage should lead to lower comprehensive rates (but higher rates on just about everything else).
>>> Comprehensive covers damage while the car is parked. The less often the car is driven, the more often it's parked. Higher mileage should lead to lower comprehensive rates <<<
If you are making the above statement as a joke, that's fine, but you are ignoring the insurance companies' experience, that more claims come away from home than at home. And usually the comprehensive rate is quoted with the collision insurance, and covers such things as returning to your parked car and finding a bashed fender (with no witnesses to a traffic accident), a broken window, or even the car itself missing. It is not so much a function of how long the car remains parked, but where it is parked. You usually do get a discount on the comprehensive insurance if the auto is kept in a garage, or in off street parking at home.
Tom
I don't understand your point. How is a car safer when it's parked at home than when it's parked at work? Assume similar parking arrangements at home and at work: both on the street, both in an outdoor parking lot, both in an enclosed garage. Unless home is in a less crime-prone neighborhood than work, I don't see how one is safer than the other.
In all the insurance policies I've seen -- and I've seen a lot lately (with quotes ranging from a high of $1234.00 per six months to a low of $710.50 for the identical car and coverage) -- comprehensive is a separate line item from collision.
A car that is used an average of (say) 30 minutes per day (i.e., it's parked an average of 23.5 hours per day) is slightly less likely to suffer losses while parked than a car that is used an average of (say) two hours per day (i.e., it's parked an average of 22 hours per day), all else being equal, for the simple reason that there's slightly more opportunity for something to go wrong while the car is parked if it's parked more often.
Comprehensive covers damage while the car is parked.
It also covers such things as hitting a deer - good thing, since my daughter just hit one with her brand new Taurus. Hasn't even made her first payment yet and it's in the body shop with $2000 damage thanks to that cloven-footed rat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with you Todd, but we have to follow instructions given to us. They tell us to guive the customer an envelope.
>>> we have to follow instructions given to us. They tell us to guive the customer an envelope. <<<
This is the TA bureaucrats way of preventing a confrontation at a token booth. Instead of telling the customer face to face that he is not getting a refund, have him send it through the mail so the postman will deliver the bad news.
Tom
No Confrontation! Hah- you should hear some of the exchanges between S/As abd customers with damaged or expired cards. We treat the customer with dignity and they respond with profanity and usually jump.
Is there anything wrong with a customer who's definitely right jumping?
About ten years ago, I was entering the subway with my father. I put my token in the slot and went through. He put his token in the slot but the turnstile remained locked. He went to the S/A (who saw him put the token in the slot), who proceeded to give whatever bureaucratic response was bureaucratically appropriate rather than letting him onto the platform. At that point a train pulled in, so my father stopped arguing and walked through the slam gate. We were half-expecting a cop to meet us at the next stop and yank him off the train.
the S/A was wrong! If a token does not unlock the turnstile we are instructed to have them sign a log and allow entry. In practice we just allow entry.
Is there anything wrong with a customer who's definitely right jumping?
About ten years ago, I was entering the subway with my father. I put my token in the slot and went through. He put his token in the slot but the turnstile remained locked. He went to the S/A (who saw him put the token in the slot), who proceeded to give whatever bureaucratic response was bureaucratically appropriate rather than letting him onto the platform. At that point a train pulled in, so my father stopped arguing and walked through the slam gate. We were half-expecting a cop to meet us at the next stop and yank him off the train.
The MC has a date on it ... it's a little more then a year from the date you bought it.
That depends. I once bought a special-edition card from CitySearch that expired a mere three months or so later (with no warning before it arrived). And I often get cards that expire in a bit under a year.
[I once bought a special-edition card from CitySearch that expired a mere three months or so later ...]
Oh yes, you can get card 1/2 way expired from City Search, the Transit Museum, or a retailer if they have cards that aren't moving (don't sell). The $120 Express Unlimited cards are sold to retailers in packages of 10, mainly because they don't sell to well (for the month of May about 4,000 to 5,000 round trips were made on our buses with them (I sold less then 50 of these). Plus 1,500 folks completed their trips on our local buses with this same card). On the other hand I buy boxes of 1,000 $30 Value cards.
As the old saying goes "let the buyer beware" ... sorry about that.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, nycDOT & am speaking for myself vs. my employeer, i.e. I don't want to be quoted in the DailyNews.
Mr t__:^)
The one year starts from the expiration date on the back of the card. It is now June 2001. If the card says expires August 31,2001 then you would have until August 2002 to transfer the menoey to a new card.
QSC just got a batch of $30 (33) Value MCs in that expire 9/30/02.
They'll be for sale until 6/29/01, when we discontinue selling them for ever, I hope. You can call & send us a check or use you credit card.
End of shameless plug.
Mr t__:^)
So? I don’t think this is unfair. A year is a long time to have the value transferred to a new card.
This is probably the protection that the MTA needs so that their card database doesn’t expand for ever with expired cards with $1 left on them.
John
No it's because there PC based system can only hold so many active MC numbers.
P.S. it's no longer on a PC was ported to a mainframe, but think for a minute of the group in Tenn designing it ... well how many numbers do we need .... 10,000, 50,000, well lets make it 2 million, that ought to be enough for 100 years ..... (I don't know the actual number, but they're about to hit that wall).
BTW, I'm the ONLY voice in the system that says it doesn't work perfect.
Mr t__:^)
R-142 #6316
Seen at 42nd St/Times Square today. North motor cab had a hand written sign taped to wall saying:
TEST TRAIN......FRICTION BRAKES
Could this be about the brake problems with the R-142. Possibly a different type of brake shoe ?
Bill "Newkirk"
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When did they retire the r16's? On what line did they make there last run?
Let me guess, you rode an 8 car train of R16s in 1991, right?
No. I think the last time was 1981 on the A line.
Huh? I doubt this as well. Not as ludicrous as your claim of an R10 C train ride in '91, but it's almost impossible that the R16 saw any service on the A train in the 1980's
I'll second that. OTOH, my claim of seeing R-10s with double circular side door windows is beginning to sound less and less preposterous.
Your R10 was Miss May 2000 in the calendar, if you want to refer to it as a Miss. Looks like it was 3047.
The caption says that it was one of two cars fitted with an R16 storm door.
I remember riding one on the C from 59th down to Jay, and rode it just because it had a piece of one of beloved R16's.
The photo seen in that New York City Subways 2000 calendar was R-10 car #3047 as the lead motor of that IND "C" train approaching Rockaway Boulevard-Liberty Junction. Only two R-10 cars were each given one R-16 type storm door replacement on each one of their #2 bulk car ends (the other one was car #3141).
-William A. Padron
I added one of a put-in starring 3141 during its last days of service to Dave's site on a putin.
No, I never saw or rode on either of the R-10s with porthole storm door windows. I'm talking about the R-10s I saw in the late 60s whose side doors had twin circular windows on each leaf a la the R-11s and R-15s. No one else has been able to substantiate this, but I'm sticking to my guns as to what I saw. I know they were R-10s because they had the teal-and-white paint scheme and ran on the A. Unfortunately, I didn't note any car numbers. That would have helped.
Geez ... nobody set you straight on that? ***YES*** I know of at least TWO cars that had them, rode them myself ... may have only been those two cars though ... "organ donors" ... I *think* they had come from R-11's myself but that was before I worked for the TA and knew anyone who could tell me what was up ... but *I* saw them in the late 60's myself ... you're NOT going silently mad ... you're just making a "kcch-sss" noise while going there. :)
(hehe... with all of the fake photos out out tonight... I had to make one myself)
Nice try by the way....Two Years Ago Today on SubTalk.....
The R16's saw very limited service on the A train in 1980.
Doubtful. All of them were based out of ENY at that time. Perhaps an odd 6400 series brought out of mothballs were used during this time (the R46 truck problems), but they wouldn't be used on the A.
In one of Greller's books, several trains of 64xx R16's were pictured in Rockaway Park yard from CC service, so one could well have slipped onto the A.
Page 67 of NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY CARS by James Clifford Greller has a 3/4-view (upper left) of three trains of R-16s in Rockaway Park Yard, with a train of R-10s off to the left. Only the first car of each train is visible. The car numbers are, respectively, 6490, 646?, and 6492. The R-16s are signed, respectively, "JJ," "M," and "KK" using the color roll signs. The picture is dated 1979.
This shows that the cars were still on the property in 1979 (assuming that the photo is correctly dated). It does NOT show that they were in service.
David
I believe the 6400 series cars were scattered around in storage facilities wherever room existed. If the picture in question is dated 1979, then all those cars cannot be in passanger service, as this predates the cracked truck fiasco by 1 year.
Besides, during this crsis when many of these mothballed R16's were pressed into service, the CC line was mostly equipped with 6 car R46's, as their R10's were moved to Jamaica.
Sort of...
The cracked truck problem on the R-46s first presented itself in 1977. By 1980 it was in full bloom. In that year, the great car swap was made, with R-46s appearing on the CC, among other highlights. Also in that year, trucks (undercarriages) were swapped between R-44 and R-46 cars, putting the more reliable trucks (from the R-44s) under the more reliable carbodies (R-46s). Of course, since there were (and are) far fewer R-44s than R-46s, most of the R-46s did not get R-44 trucks.
David
The cracked truck problem happened because the numbskulls who ordered the R-46's got the trucks from - get this - an AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURER.
North American Rockwell, the makers of fighter aircraft made those trucks. They did not last long, and the City sued and won a good amount of money. The fools who got the idea to buy them in the first place probably got a promotion, when they should have been canned. Or did they? Anyone know about them?
John DeRoos was the TA President at the time of the R-46 fiasco and he took the fall for it. I understand, however, that he was scapegoated.
David
>>The cracked truck problem happened because the numbskulls who ordered the R-46's got the trucks from - get this - an AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURER. <<
That wasn't the only problem. There were another of other factors as well. For instance, had Rockwell been called on to make normal trucks, that probably would have been okay. But, they were trying to put out a 'high-performance' truck, and one that hadn't been tested. Keep in mind that companies like Rockwell often make a wide variety of things. For instance, we have Grumman, maker of short trucks and maker of the F-14. And, Kawasaki, builder of the R-62, R-68A and R-142 did not begin it's days turning out railcars. During World War II, they built what was needed for the Pacific war: aircraft.
Rockwell's problem wasn't that they were building trucks, the problem was they were building their first such project and being asked to put together the 'cadillac' of trucks.
Yes, a Caddy that turned out to be worse than the Pinto.
A Yugo?
Nope. Ford. But you could throw the Yugo in there for good measure.
Then there's the Edsel.
Then there's the Edsel.
Actually, the Edsel was a very good car. It did have quality problems at the start, but that was because it shared an assembly line with very dissimilar products - Fords for the small-frame models (Ranger, Pacer, Roundup, Villager, and Bermuda in 1958, Ranger, Corsair, and Villager in 1959, Ranger and Villager in 1960), Mercurys for the large-frame models (1958 Corsair and Citation only). There were very few parts in common between the Edsel and its corporate It was a step-up car, actually slotted between the Mercury and the Lincoln, at a time when the economy was headed into a recession. But it also introduced many new features that are still with us today, such as: self adjusting brakes, transmission locked in park until the ignition key is turned, inside hood release, 60/40 bench seat, optional door-ajar warning light, and a heater/air conditioner where you set the temperature rather than simply adjusting warmer/colder.
Those of you who are old enough may remember that in late 1959 Ford introduced the Falcon as a 1960 model, followed about four months later by the similar Mercury Comet. Why the delay between the introduction of the Falcon and the Comet? Because the Comet was originally to have been an Edsel, and a number of parts had to be restyled to blend the Comet into the Mercury line. Had the decision not been made to end Edsel production, the Comet would have been in Edsel showrooms about six weeks prior to the Falcon's arrival at your neighborhood Ford dealer. It was originally conceived as a small station wagon; the sedan was considered incidental until late in the planning stages, and the convertible wasn't going to be introduced until spring. Alas, plans changed, and Mercury ended up with it instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good lord, anyone check for cracks in the B1B's and F15's?
Oh great, now you compare the parent company main product. Rockwell has been casting trucks for EMD for years.
As a former aircraft mech, what fighter did North American Rockwell produce (X and Y models don't count)?
North American built the: (year of origin)
P-51 Mustang (1941)
F-82 Twin Mustang (1945)
F-86 Sabre (1948)
F-100 Super Sabre (1953)
F-15 Eagle (1972)
They also built the cancelled XB70 and B1 bombers, and later the limited production B1B in the 1980's.
After this, North American Aviation changed it's name to Rockwell and went out of the fighter plane business, to concentrate on radar, missile and other non-military systems.
Very good! Except the F15's are from MD (worked on the block ones in New Mexico), and you forgot the OV-10.
Whoops. You're correct. I forgot that MD made the F15's, not NA.
That's OK. Nobody bat at 1.000
From My "History of the IND" on this site:
In 1977, the R-46s developed cracks in the Rockwell trucks that carried them; the TA eventually decided that ALL the R-46s would get replacement trucks. By 1979, the cars were limited to use between 6am and 10pm. By 1980, cracks were being discovered in the trucks at a rate of 15 per month during bi-monthly inspections; the R-46s were limited to rush hours only in an effort to cut down on the number of cracks that were occurring. R-46s were assigned to the Brighton Line, but were withdrawn after Brighton Beach residents complained about excessive vibrations being caused by the trains. The situation became so bad that 100 R-16s, at a cost of $200,000, were taken out of mothballs and returned to the subway for a few more years. The R-16s themselves were retired because of high maintenance requirements -- the controller would frequently short out. Ironically, the R-16s were retired as the R-46s were put into service! The City ended up suing Rockwell and Pullman Standard (the manufacturer of the R-46s) for $112.3 million in damages for this problem, and another $80 million in damages for other R-46 defects such as defective handbrake assemblies, cracked electrical cables and substandard waterproofing in the car's flooring. Eventually, Pullman Standard went out of the subway car manufacturing business.
--Mark
I don't believe the R16's were retired as the R46's were returned to service with new trucks. There were still 70-90 of them operational as late as early 1987. My guess is that they were retained in service to allow the R30's to be GOH'ed. In late 84-early 85, it seems the entire J line was made up of them!
I think he means that the R-16's that were returned to service because of the R-46 problems had been previously retired when those R-46's were first being delivered.
Mark--I remember when the R-46's were taken OFF the "D" because Brighton residents complained about the vibrations. Were the R-44's that ran on the "D" in the early-mid'70's withdrawn for that reason too?? TOny
Yes, they were. The R-44s were removed (and 75' cars did not reappear on the Brighton Line until the R-68s came in) in January 1981, after a derailment at Kings Highway almost sent part of a train into some backyards.
David
After the R-46s were removed (because of the vibrations), R-10s were placed in service on the D-line, almost as spitework ("hey, Brighton riders - you didn't like the newest equipment we had, well, take THIS!").
Loved them on the express runs though :)
--Mark
I really do not recall R-10's on the "D" after the R44-46's were thrown off that line. I remember some R-27-30's (usually marked "N" , the Whitehall St. limiteds), R-32's, and many R 40m and r-42's, but NEVER any slants (even to this day). BTW, when did the R1-9's stop running on the "D" line?? 1970ish?? Tony
The R1/9's were off the D pretty quickly towards the end of the 60's, replaced almost exclusively with 32's ... but they DID have some R1/9 put-ins for rush hour only that were taken back out as quickly as possible once their runs were done ... by '72 or so, catching an R1/9 on the D was less likely than hitting the lottery ... but the CC continued to use them until the end of their lives on the IND almost exclusively.
I got the R1/9's mainly because I was a split-shifter with the 6 hour "rot, son ..." schedule ... all part of being a newbie ... worst picks imaginable ...
I rode on a D train of R-10s once, in 1979 or 1980. It sure looked strange to see my beloved Thunderbirds sporting D signs, but they thundered and blazed along CPW in the same manner as they always had. Since D trains terminated at Brighton Beach when they ran express in Brooklyn and because the R-10s did not have Brighton Beach signs, the bulkhead destination curtain on the south motor was blank.
P. S. I wonder if residents along the Brighton line complained about the decibel level of the R-10s.
Two of those R-16s even still had their old number curtains. The one with the M sign was sporting its #10 numeric counterpart while the one with the KK sign had its number curtain set to 14.
That must have been a posed shot.
I guess those 6400's never turned another revenue wheel. I wrongly assumed they were in CC service from the picture.
If you've seen the photo, it was taken from the side, not head on. I'm surprised any of the original R-16 route curtains were even in existence by the time that pic was taken, let alone still installed on any of the cars.
I saw some of them on the "E" and "F" back then - I actually rode one on the "F" in 1974 - I think it was a refugee from the "EE" or "GG" - I also saw R10s on the "F" in 1981 I believe; rode one of them - it was a rocket ride; #3080 the north motor - it FLEW- may have exceeded 50MPH.
wayne
That was probably the last time the R-10s really got to show off their sheer brute speed capabilities. You know what would have been realy cool? Run a race between that F train headed by 3080 and that R-6/7 F train headed by (A-440) 1233. Send 'em Queens-bound between Union Turnpike and Parsons Blvd and let 'em rip.
It was a late morning run maybe 10{30 almost 11{00. It was definitly a r16. The only time I saw one on the A train. It was the day after a major snow storm. I guess they were short of equipment that morning.
Absolutely, positively false. As a rookie conductor in 1980, I worked the A quite often. I never saw or operated an R16 on the A. At that time, some Westinghouse (6300 series) R16's were being resurrected for rush hour service on the L line. The 6400's were long stored at various yards which had tracks not needed to store regular service cars. Rockaway Park had several tracks availiable for long term storage.
That's what I thought. R16's thast were in storage were probably used in 1980-81 for service on the eastern division only.
The R-16's last ran on the "J" line about 1986-7-ish. At that time, the route was from Broad Street to 121 St (during rush hours, some trains began at 111 Street). Tony
Sounds about right. The R-16 at Kingston, and R-17 at Branford both arrived about this time.
Mr t__:^)
The J was completely R16 free by October 1986. These lemons trudged the M line for the next 7 months before mercifully being shot.
I rode one on the J in Jan 1987 during the LIRR strike from Chambers to Broad, and saw several others.
Or being mercifully put out of their misery. Which is more than I can say about the senseless slaughter of the Triplexes when they were still running beautifully.
They were killed because they were "non-standard" ... "them things is weird ... they can do the Jamaica el at speed .. KILL 'em! ... sounds like the 2nd avenue el story all over again ...
Yeah, that's what I heard - the Triplexes were slaughtered because they were labeled as nonstandard. A lame excuse in my book. Those cars could have lasted at least another 10 years, if not more. As long as they didn't get the silver and blue treatment....let's not even go there.
From what I heard the Triplexes were retired because they were too heavy to run on the BMT Broadway El. I have that same problem with their retirement: I had thought that the cars still had a few years of life left in them (from what I've heard).
They couldn't leave several sets around for the Franklin and Culver shuttles ?
In 1967, they pulled some ex-Southern Division Standards off the scrap line for 6 months and sent them to the Eastern Division to co-mingle with their refurbished (in 1958) mates, so that 40 or 50 R16's could be sent to the GG (the R1's were falling apart faster than the R38's could arrive). It would have been simpler to simply put the Triplexes on the GG.
Once you start to approach the ripe old age of 40, the TA has to get rid of you.
Looks like they may get 50 years out of the R32's.............
May 1987 on the M.
Someone said in here once that an accident on an R16 M train underneath the East River in May of 1987 led to the immediate retirement of all remaining R16's before their scheduled scrapping date.
Leave my beloved R16's alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They did finish up on the M in May of 1987. The accident I think you are referring to is a decoupling, except that the coupler ripped apart from base of the car.
Can we really be calling them lemons if they served as the basis or forefathers of the successful R17 through R36 series, some of which are still running today and known as the Redbirds?
Bravo! There's one in Kingston, NY and they've given it SPECIAL CARE above and beyond the call of duty. If you're ever on a jaunt in upstate Noo Yawk, might want to drop by and pat it on the side. :)
Might do that "leg thang" if you skritch it just right.
My feelings onbeing forefathers of R17-36 would be only in body style.The basic systems were established with the R10's; The poor GE control systems of the R16..somehow the IRT managed to live with them all those years (R17,21,22). Air wise occasional improvements on different SMEE's came about but I don't note any major difference on the R16.
OK along with the body style came the long used ventilating system but I never saw it as any improvement over he basic prewar design comfort wise.
BTW the dropping of drawbars which was mentioned ...there was a big problem with that once on the R10's because of B/O control systems in the 60's where cars were slamming into each other and beating the draft gear to death...so I don't think it was a sin of the R16's.
But for having been a fan and then employee of the system for so many of those years I DON'T KNOW why they were such a problem. Basically the same as an R17, etc..maybe the R17-22 being smaller and lighter made them successful. WE ALL KNOW [SORRY GUYS] nothing was as powerful/durable as the old prewar relics! HA hA.Forgive me....
I think the fact that they were a just a small fleet of 200 cars might have had something to do with it all.
What probably should have been done is a complete overhaul, I mean rip the guts out of them entirely, and start anew. But this is just not cost effective for 200 cars. Also, back in those days, the TA didn't have those capabilities that they have today.
Who knows? I feel we retired the R27's - R30's too soon, too.
The R27/30 was much like the R26/28/29 etc would have been worth saving. For the R16 [and 17,21,22] it wouldn't have been worth going overboard.
>>What probably should have been done is a complete overhaul, I mean rip the guts out of them entirely, and start anew.<<
Right. and waste the money that could have just bought new cars. No, you can get rid of the crappy cars instead of keeping them around. They did last for a while though.
>>Who knows? I feel we retired the R27's - R30's too soon, too.<<
Yes, the R-27/R-30 was retired too soon. Especially since they weren't replaced. At least the could have kept around the R-30/30A's that they re-built. But, because they didn't, we have the problem of absolutely no B division route expansion.
The R16's were orphans - always moving around to plug a hole someplace on the system.
The R30's that they could have kept would have been gone now anyway. They were badly abused, and the fact that they didn't have AC would have been another problem.
AC only comes into play during hot summer months. Since ridership dips in the summer, using the R30 in the fall, winter and spring would not affect anyone.
Totally agreed, but did the TA have the foresight to hold onto them in the first place? NO! They would have been very useful if kept.
I actually read someplace that some of the components in the rehabbed R30's that were scrapped went into the WF R-36's which were starting to come apart.
The R-30s got new controllers which were transplanted into the WF R-36s.
When it comes to GOH's and other massive overhauls, there seems to be a sort of "diminshing returns" issue. Since these type of rebuilds are so costly, it only pays to do them on cars that will be around for a long time.
One only has to compare the overhauls done on the stainless steel cars of the 1960's to the LAHT cars of the IRT to see this phenomenon. IRT overhauled cars kept their original interiors (although the fan louvres were modified). Many of the "B"-Division rebuilds got completely new ceilings, doors, grab-bars, lighting, and wall panels. Even the cars that kept their original wall panels had them RE-ENAMELED, as opposed to just slapping on a coat of paint.
Not all the rebuilds were successful. Besides the much-discussed and maligned GE R-32s, the R-40m/R42 class were rebuilt by three different vendors: Sumitomo, Morris-Kunudsen, and the NYCTA. There is a huge variation in the quality of the rebuilds of these classes, and undoubtedly, this will affect what gets retired and when. Perhaps if the MTA knew in advance (hindsight is so much better) that some of the rebuilds would be lousy, they would have held onto the R-30s a while longer. Of course, since they didn't retrofit them with air conditioning, the riding public would have griped about them ad nauseum.
The 162 GE R30's were done by Coney Island, as were 110 R42's, and they did a shitty job. MDBF's relect(ed) it.
Had they AC'd the R30's, they would have had to put in the cyclops destination sign due to the drop ceiling, an expensive retrofit. IRT cars had enough space between door sets to put the AC units midcar. AC also would have made them as heavy and sluggish as R16's, which is why they passed it up. They still should have either mothballed them, sprinkled them around the system, use them only rush hours, or put 2 cars into eighty-one 10 car consists of R32/38/40/42's as is done with Flushing singles, so you could avoid them if you chose.
Or just run them as normal cars and let the people sweat like people did for 80 years. What good is AC when your train is packed full of human flesh because no more cars exists to expand service to meet demand?
Adding A/C to the R-30s would have upped their tonnage to BMT standard proportions.
The Sumitomo R40's and MK R42's are fine. It's those awful CI R42's that should go first.
How can you tell which are which ? Do they mix them ?
The car #'s tell you. Most 4800 and all 4900 series R42's are CI overhauled, and a plaque near each car number tells you who rebuilt them.
Morrison-Knudsen R-42: 4550-4839
NYCT Coney Island R-42: 4840-4949
Sumitomo R-40M: 4450-4549
All of the above types are mixed in trains.
David
Thanks for the exact numbers.
The last time I remember seeing unrebuilt R42's was those operating on the 6th Ave. Q line right after the bridge flip of 12/11/88. They were gradually replaced by new R68A's over the next 2 months. I assume these cars were soon to be the ones overhauled by Coney Island.
BTW, the Sumitomo R40's (both slants and M's) seem to have the best AC of them all. Did they use the same models of AC units that MK and CI used on the R42's?
According to EVOLUTION OF NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS by Gene Sansone, air conditioning on the GOH cars was supplied as follows:
R-40/R-40M: Thermo King, 9-ton units (each ton = 12,000 BTU; each car has two units)
R-42 MK: Stone Safety, 9-ton units (4550-4749); Thermo King, 9-ton units (4750-4840)
R-42 CI: Stone Safety, 9-ton units
It should be noted, though, that the componentry has been undergoing SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System) work on a regular basis since the cars were put back into service following overhaul. What's on the cars now may not be what was on the cars then.
David
The last 100 cars of the R-40s were airconditioned with (2) Stone Safety 9 ton units per car. All R-40S cars ended up with (2) thermoking 9 ton units after GOH.
The R-40Ms had either (2) 9 ton stone safety units (4450-4479) or (2) 10 ton thermoking units (4480-4549). All recieved (2) thermoking 9 ton units during GOH.
The R-42s had (2) 10 ton units (Either safety or trane) pre-overhaul. After overhaul the cars had 9 to stone safety or 9 ton trane units per your schedule.
The 75' cars have (2) 10 ton units (before and after overhaul in the case of the R-44/R-46) while the 50' cars have (1) 12 ton unit per car.
Do you think they could fix #4908-4909 anytime soon; it's a rolling oven.
wayne
You can also tell by the grab bars at the car ends behind the cabs; the ones on the NYCT GOH R42s resemble the ones found on the R40 and R40M GOH cars. AND they have mushy floors.
wayne
You can also tell by the grab bars at the car ends behind the cabs; the ones on the NYCT GOH R42s resemble the ones found on the R40 and R40M GOH cars.
More like the ones in the R-38 GOH cars. Which I like. A lot.
You know, they were actually studying doing just that! AND they actually did one car over - #6429 - I saw it at 207 Street Yard during the 1980 Open House - it looked like an R44 inside with longitudinal seating - very nice indeed - and the A/C was working - never saw a day of service, unfortunately - They had 198 cars in the fleet at the time having lost #6494 and #6304 to accidents.
I miss the R16 but I can get to rekindle the flame by going to NYCT Museum and curling up in the rock-hard fiberglas seat of #6387 (LOVE her soft blue interior and peeling ceiling paint) and I will get up to Kingston one day to actually ride on #6398. Wonder how that restoration's going. She's wearing her olive green paint job.
wayne
According to A NEW DIRECTION IN TRANSIT, published in December 1978 by the Department of City Planning, there were 195 R-16s on the property, of which all were in storage at the time. As we know, some of them did make it back into service.
David
Every single one? Why were they not returned to storage when the R46's were fixed?
I hate to go into conjecture, but when it's all I've got...
In the early 1980s the system was hitting rock-bottom reliability-wise. Anything that could run was pushed out of the yards. Probably the R-16s were permitted to continue running because they were on the property and capable of turning a wheel, albeit not reliably. Remember also that it took a while to replace all the trucks on the R-46s (1983?) and that the R-44s weren't racking up many miles in this period, either -- they had the nasty habit of bursting into flames in their yards for no good reason (finally the ATO equipment, which wasn't being used anyway, was traced to be the source of the problem and was removed).
David
Also:
As somebody pointed out, 162 R-30/R-30As were GOHd in 1985-87, requiring a "float" of additional cars. It should also be noted that the R-68s were a year late in entering service -- they were supposed to start coming in 1985 but did not start running until Spring 1986.
David
Damned heretic ... PROUD of ya, Ed! :)
Hey, I LOVE the R16, and my handle used to be Chris R16. But that doesn't change the fact that they were mechanical lemons.
Can we really be calling them lemons if they served as the basis or forefathers of the successful R17 through R36 series, some of which are still running today and known as the Redbirds?
The Redbirds are the height of mediocrity. Throughout those years, the TA put out the most boring, bland and utilitarian designs imaginable. The R-16 started all that, the R-16 must therefore be blamed for unleashing such a great evil on the subway.
The R-40 may not be the most beautiful thing on wheels, but it broke the monotony.
?????..........................?...........................!
Look at the MTA's site and see for yourself. Trains will run every 15 minutes express from 4th ave to Jay from 10AM to 3PM Monday through Friday. Trains will skip Bergen st, but the station is still all lit up so it'll be like going through an abandoned station.
G trains will run in two sections, Continental to Bedford-nostrand and Bed-nost to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Long Live Culver Express!!!
> G trains will run in two sections, Continental to Bedford-nostrand and Bed-nost to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Why do they always do that? Why can't they just run the G Trains straight through between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Queens?
- Lyle Goldman
They cannot turn trains easily at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. There is no interlocking. They will probably run single track service from there to Bedford-Nostrand.
Let's get this right:
There is no interlocking as you said. Nights, headways are so loooong that they single track service from Bedford Nostrand to Hoyt. However, there is enough service during the day so that the G from Queens must turn at Bedford Nostrand, the nearest interlocking. (it's a center track with island platforms than outside tracks if anyone doesn't know). Shuttle service must pick up the passengers from Classon to Hoyt, and also take through passengers to Hoyt. so that they can xfer to the Manhattan Bound "A" or "C" trains and then xfer at Jay for a Coney Island bound F.
It's amazing that they're using these tracks. Musta done some work on the switch to make it functional again.
How about this:
The ride from Bergen to Myrtle-Willoughby is usually a one-train ride: the G goes straight there.
With this GO, it's a five-train ride: F to 4th Avenue, cross over to F back to Jay, cross over to A/C to H-S, G to Bedford-Nostrand, G to Myrtle-Willoughby. It would be faster to ride the F through Manhattan and into Queens and backtrack on the G.
>>It would be faster to ride the F through Manhattan and into Queens and backtrack on the G.<<
No, it really wouldn't
According to the GO, Manhattan-bound F's will be running at 15-minute intervals. What about Brooklyn-bound F's? If they're running more frequently, where are the extra ones going -- up the B or D to Manhattan? That, too, would be an interesting sight to see. If that is what's happening, would they be signed as F's? Would they still depart from the F platform at Stillwell?
Oh, there's another option: the F could run up Broadway (local or express) and into Queens via either 60th or 63rd.
I was wondering that, too. I think one of the other GOs said all F trains were at 15 minute intervals.
I guess next week's midday F will make the commute take (F)orever.
Why 15-minute intervals? We have to wait long enough under normal circumstances! Why must they reduce headways?
- Lyle Goldman
Hey, no complaints! The midday J has been running at 24-minute headways for a few months now, and for a week the 5 to Dyre was running as a shuttle with full 30-minute headways. Fifteen minutes isn't bad at all.
As for your question: probably due to track work somewhere that won't allow regular F headways. There may be a bit of single-tracking, which would certainly require lengthened headways. I don't know the real reason for sure.
Sometimes work south of Ave. X requires only one track operation from here to CI. But usually it's provided with a shuttle.
Wait a minute. The track map doesn't show a switch from the local track to the express track between 4th Avenue and Smith-9th. Either the track map is wrong or trains are running express all the way from Church (whoops, there goes the transfer at 4th Avenue).
Look at little harder... it's there.
You're right -- I couldn't make it out on the small map.
Nope there is a switch right after 4th. I rode it today and it was kinda slow. Track work and work train on the N/B local track and no signals in the lower level (they were all covered up). We went slow, and the unused platform at Bergen was just a shell.
Still interesting though. I wonder why there were no signals on the lower level.
There were signals up until the single crossover S. of Bergen. Since that used to be interlocking controlled and no line-up could ever be given again, they covered over the homeball and associated leading signals and tied down the trippers (though one T/O thought he had to key-by). After the station there was the merge with the local, since the switch was physically moved by hand the whole signal system around there was shot so they covered those over too.
Yup that's what I saw. It was weird going through with no signals, the T/O slowed before each one (maybe to make sure the tripper was down). Usually they don't like running trains without signals, but maybe that's why they were running only every 15 minutes.
Now has there ever been an instance where they ran trains at longer headways due to a signal outage on a mainline?
Yes, the trains ran at 15min headways because of the lack of signals. However, I just missed an F, and I didn't have to wait 15mins. for another one.
As for the trip:
First off, there are timers on the Culver Exp. as you approach Carrol St., and all the way thru Carrol. Plus, since we had to go slowly past the Workers at Smith-9th sts. (where the work was being done). So, from 4th av. to Carrol, we were slowed by the switch, then workmen, then a timer. Then, the first signal after the timer was the last working signal. After that, we were running 'blind' and for that reason, we were only going at best 20 mph. Then there's the single crossover just south of Bergen LL. cruising through Bergen LL was cool, and the station is not just a shell. It has been painted, has the incandescent lighting and had what looked like fully completed steps to the upper level. After that, we hit a green signal, and we flew into Jay st.
But I still have some questions:
1. What interlockings exactly are the inoperable ones? I had always thought that it was solely the connection from local to express between Jay and Bergen.
2. Will the TA fix it's system so that the trains can use the LL without having blanked signals? There was an awful long period without signals just before the single Bergen crossover.
3. Were any repairs made on the nbound express tracks before the run was made? The rails were all rusted and I thought inoperable. But the TA ran trains on them.
4. Can Work trains use the LL tracks presently? I would assume not, but since the tracks were open, i'm somewhat optimistic.
As an interesting last note, at the single crossover at bergen, there was a 5 bulb red light set in the trough of the tracks on the southbound side, right after the switch (or basically in it). I guess this crossover is completely useless. If this is the only problem, they could eliminate it. (didn't they eliminate the one on the upper level?).
Actually, they didn't eliminate the crossover south of the upper level platforms at Bergen.
The switches originally affected were: both upper and lower crossovers, the 2 switches that merge/diverge the F, and the 2 switches that merge/diverge the F and G. The last two were patched up, but between the fire and repair job I think there was a while where the F ran express to Church both directions while the G ran local.
How to fix Bergen St in 4 easy steps
(Any work here requires the tower be inoperative or under minimal operation, therefore the G gets cut to Court Sq in all situations).
Re-institute the lower crossover: The lower level crossover can be worked on and rewired to the tower while the F runs above, unaffected.
The upper crossover: It will be needed later, so it must be fixed second. Send all Fs express, headways unaffected, use shuttle buses for local stops. Have northbound Fs run local to 4th so the shuttle is only needed for Carrol and Smith-9 (possibly Bergen).
The southbound diverge switch: Here's where things get hairy. Southbound trains must switch to wrong-railing (single-track) south of York and use the newly restored upper Bergen crossover to normalize. Headways must be reduced slightly.
The northbound merge switch: Southbound trains stay on their regular track throughout. Northbound trains switch to the northbound express at Church, then to the soutbound express at 4th. Wrong-rail but remain separate from southbound trains until Bergen. Merge into single track with the newly restored southbound switch, and normalize south of York.Headways would have to be reduced more than the above, since only one northbound train can be between 4th and Bergen, which will tie things up if a train must wait at Bergen for a southbound to pass.
BTW: Bergen tower is not as inoperable as everyone thinks. The express trains do show up on the board, and all blocks that are occupied are shown as such (even the ones with the covered signals). The only thing is, they can't give line-ups. Lower Bergen still has station signalling, when a train is in the confines of the station it only has one dot. The trains are not slowing to 15 while passing (one went 39), this probably is damaging the system...
>>but between the fire and repair job I think there was a while where the F ran express to Church both directions while the G ran local.<<
Nope. The Switch was set so that the F only could run through on the local tracks while the G was cut to Bedford-Nostrand (Shuttles bet. Hoyt and Bedford)
>>(Any work here requires the tower be inoperative or under minimal operation, therefore the G gets cut to Court Sq in all situations).<<
That would render the WHOLE G line useless. How about bedford-nostrand? Maybe that's what you meant.
Those steps you stated were hardly "easy"
I don't see why any rewiring needs to be done. The only thing destroyed was the machine for switching, all the wires should still be in place.
However, assuming that the switches do indeed need to be repaired, you could use the following steps.
1. Fix lower crossover without disrupting any of the upper level services. (same as above)
2. Send F's on lower level (presumably without signal coverage at the express/local interlocking. G's from queens are terminating at Bedford-Nostrand. Shuttle G trains operate from Bedford-Nostrand to Bergen upper level (each shuttle runs on it's own track, running express when it is wrong-railing). F's switch to local track at 4th av. a shuttle runs from Carrol to 4th av (this is kinda tough. however, F headways in brooklyn will be reduced, and some F's from Queens will terminate at 2nd av, Manhattan)
3. One weekend, F service is cut: between Bergen and Jay. (southbound trains crossover the A line tracks to reach their own northbound tracks. No C service into brooklyn on this weekend so that there won't be too many tie-ups at Jay.) G service is run all the way to Coney Island (since the G line never has a chance to pass the switch at Jay st. express. ) Passengers on the F to Coney Island can get the A at Jay and then the G at Hoyt-schermerhorn. Do this every weekend possible until work on both switches is complete).
Now wasn't that much easier Henry?
>>BTW: Bergen tower is not as inoperable as everyone thinks. The express trains do show up on the board, and all blocks that are occupied are shown as such (even the ones with the covered signals). The only thing is, they can't give line-ups. Lower Bergen still has station signalling, when a train is in the confines of the station it only has one dot. The trains are not slowing to 15 while passing (one went 39), this probably is damaging the system...<<
That seems pretty impotent to me. And I don't see how this damages the system. Station trackage is just like normal trackage.
Were Brooklyn-bound trains also running at 15-minute headways or were alternate trains returning via some other route?
It did seem like Brooklyn bound F trains were running less often. I know I had to wait a while at Jay street for one to go to 4th ave.
Also had to wait (A)while for the 8th ave express from Penn to Jay street.
4th ave is a busy station, I guess with the connection to 4th ave BMT and all. Is that a long transfer, I never did it before?
Also had to wait (A)while for the 8th ave express from Penn to Jay street.
You do realize that the C also goes from Penn to Jay, yes? It only makes two more stops than the A. If a C pulls in first, unless I have reason to expect an A any minute, I'll take it.
If I were you, I would have taken the R straight to 9th Street and transferred there to the F. It's not like you weren't warned that F headways were long!
4th ave is a busy station, I guess with the connection to 4th ave BMT and all. Is that a long transfer, I never did it before?
It's not the longest in the system, but the BMT is underground and the IND is elevated, so it's not the shortest either.
>>You do realize that the C also goes from Penn to Jay, yes? It only makes two more stops than the A. If a C pulls in first, unless I have reason to expect an A any minute, I'll take it.<<
You evidently don't go to Penn very often, do you? to get that arriving "C" you'd have to run downstairs and then back up again. And if you're at the end of the platform, that's just not possible.
Plus when the C did come there hadn't been an E train for 10 minutes. Needless to say the C was packed like a sardine can.
I use the IRT station more often, but I usually wait on the express platform by a staircase and run if I see or hear a local coming. I almost always make it.
If I didn't want to run, I'd wait on the local platform, since, even if an E came first, I could take it to 14th and wait there for an A or a C, whichever came next. (Or, since the goal was to get to the F, I'd stay on to W4 and transfer downstairs.) The C and E combined have shorter headways than the A.
From what I heard, at least one SB Fox originated at Lexington, which led me to believe that it have come north from CI on the BMT, and wrong railed into the Lexington storage track [G3] from 57th St. -Just a guess.
I was on the first train that resumed local service yesterday afternoon ( leave it to me to be late!). We first got a call-on at Bergen, which was then cancelled for the normal Y/Y. I was surprised that the machine at Bergen will give a call on at all...I thought it was a "stripped down", "quick and dirty" job done after the fire.
>>I was surprised that the machine at Bergen will give a call on at all...I thought it was a "stripped down", "quick and dirty" job done after the fire.<<
It was. There is a tower at Bergen though, and I believe that they can give call-ons. (this annoys me, why can't that tower manually control Bergen?
>>this annoys me, why can't that tower manually control Bergen?<<
This occured shortly before I moved to NYC, so I dunno the facts.
With that said;
In order to get Bergen interlocking back up and working after the fire destroyed the lever plant, only three home signals were made operational. All others Homeballs were made into automatics, or marker signals. Only two turnouts were given controls. This restored "normal" operation as quickly as possible, but ruled out any abnormal moves as there is no protection provided by the existing plant.
For the use of the express track, I'm sure it takes a few maintainers at Bergen to get things set up and later restore them.
Scuttlebut is that there is a Request for Proposal out to re-equip Bergen tower with a microprocessor plant.
But I digress...constantly
>>This occured shortly before I moved to NYC, so I dunno the facts.<<
I know the facts. Fire at Bergen LL. Switching machine destroyed. For about 2 weeks, the Bergen st. station was closed F trains bypassed it, while All queens G service terminated at Bedford Nostrand with 2 G shuttles running between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Bedford-Nostrand. (they had an interesting scheme: When trains were running opposite of normal operation, they ran express.)
The Switch had to be set solely for F trains to come into Bergen, with the machine gone the tracks could not switch for G trains. After 2 weeks, Bergen re-opened, but G shuttles continued to run. After a month, "normal" service returned.
But, none of this is what makes me mad.
First, you have the fact that all they did was restore use of the switches between the Crosstown Local tracks and the Rutgers tunnel tracks. From my understanding, this left the Single crossover on the lower level S of bergen useless, the crossover on the upper level (did this really exist? I don't remeber it, but I never looked for it) was removed, and the switch to/from the express tracks useless. (This is why there have been no signals on the express runs near that area during the G/O).
Second, you have all those towers nearby! Hell, there's a tower on the upper level of Bergen! I'm gonna count the towers in the vicinity.
1. Bergen upper level tower.
2. 4th av. tower
3. Jay St. tower
4. Dead Hoyt-Schermerhorn St. tower.
What's wrong with manual operation? They could have made use of their dispatchers in the towers and kept the switch open. Supposedly, there is a contract going out for repairs, but it should have been fixed when the original machine was destroyed.
The UL crossover is still there, but lying dormant.
My story actually started at Jay Street. I took an F train from Jay to 15th Street. I saw two F trains pass by; one north of 4th Avenue, and one at 7th Avenue. I got off this southbound F train at 15th Street. I got on the next northbound F train I saw, when I noticed a blue light on the train. I got on just as the doors started the close. I was looking for an end door that opened, but couldn't. At 4th Avenue, I discovered a door that opened far enough to leave a good sized gap. Sticking a key in the gap, (house keys are very useful outside the house, aren't they?) I was able to get the door open. Standing in the vestibule, I could feel the wind as the train rushed towards Bergen (at that point, it must have been doing 30 or 35). The train slowed down a bit as it entered Bergen, but the train must have been doing about 20 to 25 MPH. After taking a couple of pics, I moved into the next car, and got off at Jay Street.
I suspect it is because the express section can only have one train in it at a time, on account of that the signal system will be highly confused and most likely disabled between Bergen and Jay.
During a 1994 GO, the southbound F's were routed express from Bergen to 4th Ave, and the Bergen St. lower platform was actually OPEN. The G terminated at the upper Bergen St. platform, and x-ferring passangers were guided to the lower level by TA personnel who had to do a lot of convinvcing to make them believe such a platform existed.
Since the whole interlocking is out, they can't turn the G there anymore... pity. Why don't they just convert everything to manual throw switches that can be locked with a key when not in use?
I was down in the Grand Central 42nd St. station and I heard an announcement about some service issue dealing with the uptown #6. I could really understand what was said. When I got to the uptown #6 platform, there was an empty train of R142/A's there and a ton of people on the platform looking at the train and looking kinda mad. I assume they all got kicked off the train minutes earlier. Then the R142 (and/or A's) pulled out and at the same time a #6 train of Redbirds pulled up on the uptown express track. Now to my question: anyone know what happened to cause this catastrophe?
I was there. Not sure what happened, but the conductor of the 6 that came in on the express track was pretty angry. He was just as out of the loop as everyone else until the operator announced, after a minute of madness on the platform, that the train would return to the local track.
Mark
Guess there was a problem with the R142A train. Aaahhh technology!
There probably was a problem with the train of R-142A cars. Since they are new they will have some problems. Once the bugs are worked out they should be fine.
BMTJeff
If you remember the last time you rode the Vermonter, cherish that memory because it shall be your last. As of yesterday Amtrak anounced that they are perminently scrapping the service. The trouble began last month then a big storm washed a section of the NEC trackage that the Vermonter runs on. After a couple weeks of service disruption the track was fixed and Amtrak sent up it's Geometry car and found over 200 defects on the line. The cost of this in slow orders would have tacked on an extra 3 hours to the run so Amtrak decided to wait until the track was fixed. After a few weeks of bussing and after having temporarily laid off the Vermonter staff I guess that they felt that the time involved w/ the fix, combined with the high cost of bussing and the fact that the line looses money even w/ the VT state subsudy they decided to just throw in the towel.
I guess this means I won't be able to visit my friends at Hempshire college anymore.
Nah, just a Shrub getting even with Jeffords ... Once America votes properly, it'll be back. :)
That would be a "Shrub" that grows in alcohol tainted soil!!! :-0
And we're only 1/8 through this one-termer ... yipe.
Actually, it's his third term.
??? (sounds like tower master arrival time fuzzy math to me) Third? Hate to drive another political spike here but I gotta hear this one. :)
"Nah, just a Shrub getting even with Jeffords"
Shrub doesn't have that type of control over Amtrak he couldn't cut services just to get back at someone if he wanted to. Besides the republicans don't want to make Vermont hate then Vermont voted republican until 1992.
"Once America votes properly..."
I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Last time I checked 95% of Americans voted for either republicans or democrats in the last election despite the fact that for 80% of Americans there was another Candidate who's views were closer to there's.
AmTrak is losing a lot of money. While it is still regrettable that the Vermonter will no longer run, AmTrak needs to cut more money losing services to make the company financially viable.
Right now, the only AmTrak service that makes money is the NorthEast Corridor service which makes on average a $5 per person profit.
AmTrak needs to cut more money losing services to make the company financially viable.
How much profit does the interstate highway system make?
Whilst I don't pretend Amtrak is fault free, I think that cutting rural services is only part of the solution. There are probably some efficiency gains to be had in there (although actually implementing them would be hard). As for the Vermonter, if it loses $ even with state subsidy, then Amtrak should have done one of two things:
(a) Ask for more subsidy from the State of VT
(b) Hand over the operations to the State of VT and see if they can make it run any cheaper, if they don't want to pay any more subsidy.
After all, there is little reason why the Vermonter couldn't run as a shortline operation, with exchange at Springfield MA (?) for Amtrak purchase-of-service operation -- the shortline who owns the stock, operates the train, purchases trackage rights, crew, and motive power from Amtrak for the run into Washington. Some kind of penetration revenue-sharing deal can be hashed out between Vermonter Passenger Railroad Inc. (VPRI) and Amtrak. Amtrak should like the deal, because it is an enhancement of services on the NEC, even if it means giving up part of the NEC revenue, because it will make all that $ back from selling VPRI the track path, the crew, and the little AEM-7 for the run down to Washington.
Lexcie
"How much profit does the interstate highway system make?"
Even if the federal government pays for railroad track building and maintenance Amtrak would still lose money. Why? Because the airlines are faster and intercity buses are cheeper. I see no reason for Amtrak to exist outside of the NEC.
I see no reason for Amtrak to exist outside of the NEC.
I hope you are able to get your vision deficiency corrected. :)
"I hope you are able to get your vision deficiency corrected"
Want to give me some real reasons?
First of all, understand that the NEC, while the most heavily travelled Amtrak route, is not the only corridor which has potential for holding its own.
The Los Angeles-San Diego corridor is another. Amtrak's biggest problem there is a conventional track and conventional equipment. Install at least two tracks all the way, as straight as possible, renovate stations and give them raised platforms, clear the diesels for 100 mph operation as you install overhead catenary for Acela-type service, and ridership will increase because the train will be very competitive, even superior to, airline service on that stretch of track. (I won't go into Calif. attitudes, NIMBY etc. in this post).
Certain corridors near Chicago and in Florida have similar potential. Whenever you can get people around as fast by train as by plane, and eliminate airport hassles, you've got potential.
Second, Amtrak offers an alternative in many markets to airport monopolies, esp. at small airports where residents are charged high fares by feeder airlines to get them to major airports. So if a state wants to pay Amtrak, or Greyhound, or whatever, a subsidy to offer their citizens an affordable alternative (even if the bus or train only runs once or twice a day), that's legitimate.
as to the national network, well, I think there's a place for it. I know that's controversial, so I advocate for it, respect the people who advocate against, and hope for the best...
1) There are more places in the country with large cities close together than just the NEC. Boston-NYC is 231 miles and NYC-Washington DC is 226 miles. For comparison, Milwaukee-Chicago: 86 miles; Indianapolis-CHI: 196 miles; Detroit-CHI: 281 miles; Saint Louis-CHI: 284 miles. Raleigh-Charleston: 197 miles; Charlotte-Atlanta: 258 miles. San Diego-Los Angeles: 129 miles; Oakland-Fresno: 204 miles; San Jose-Sacramento: 134 miles. Seattle-Portland: 186 miles. THERE IS NOTHING MAGICAL OR UNIQUE ABOUT THE NORTHEAST CORRIDOR OR THE CITIES ON IT!
2) All the places I just named are on corridors that either exist NOW or are being built.
*California has an extensive network of trains on three corridors, with Amtrak as the contract operator. The trains in California carry over 3 million people a year, and the state needs to add trains at nearly every timetable change just to accomodate the growing traffic -- 41% in 1999 for the Capitol Corridor alone! The state with the reputation of being car-mad is the first state outside the NEC to coax large numbers of intercity travelers out of their cars.
http://www.amtrakcalifornia.com
*Northwest. With the assistance of Oregon and Washington, Amtrak operates the Cascades corridor that carries over 450,000 riders a year, with a ridership increasing 8% or more annually.
http://www.amtrakcascades.com
*Midwest. Several Midwestern states, including Illinois and Wisconsin, have already spent millions in state and federal funding to improve existing rail lines for 110mph service. The improvements to the Chicago-Detroit line are COMPLETE and the speed limit will be increased to 90mph and then 110mph as those improvements are tested in existing service this summer. Bids have already been made to provide 110mph-capable trainsets. http://www.dot.state.wi.us/opa/images/mwrailsum.pdf
*Southeast. Virginia and the Carolina states have also spent millions on track and grade crossing improvements to increase track speeds. Dozens of grade crossings have been closed or improved by the state of North Carolina alone. http://www.sehsr.org
3) Far from being empty, the existing overnight long-distance trains run completely booked or close to it. Try getting a sleeper on a Chicago-Oakland train in the summer only a couple of weeks before traveling!
4) People in small towns with no or lousy (tiny propeller planes -- can you say "Buddy Holly"?!) air service should have a travel alternative to driving 5 or more hours to the nearest city with a jetport. In Montana, there are more people boarding the daily Empire Builder at some TINY towns than in larger cities of 100-250,000 residents! Why? Because it's their only real alternative to driving.
5) Amtrak doesn't make a profit, not even in the Northeast. Just like commuter rail, the NEC has many thousands of people riding the trains, but has to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to maintain track, stations, and cars in reasonable condition. If Metro-North or Metra can't run a profit, why does anyone think Amtrak NEC does, with somewhat fewer people (less farebox revenue) traveling significantly longer distances (higher costs)?!?
I think the "magical" thing that you're missing about the NEC is the sum total of population "served" by the corridor compared to the populations served by the other corridors you mention. Just because the other corridors might have a good amount of ridership, it's sheer numbers that will make it profitable, something the NEC has and most of the other corridors do not.
Here's population figures that would come in handy to evalutate this:
http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro-city/ma99-05.txt
That's a good point Dave; however, you're mistaken about the NEC being alone. The LA-San Diego corridor has plenty of airline traffic, and plenty of auto traffic. Amtrak has pretty good ridership there, too (and I've ridden the San Diegan a few times). Were Amtrak to set up an Acela type operation there, that service would gain market share at the expense of the airlines, and would take some cars off the road too. But Amtrak would need to install two tracks, catenary etc., overcome NIMBY,so there's no free lunch, naturally.
In fact many of these corridors do have significant market share. The Wash-NY segment of the NEC mostly benefits from the major engineering upgrade by PRR including the electrification, AND that even in the worst years of either PC or early ATK, there still were so many departures that it had better service than some so called commuter lines. The Metroliner project was the first Federal attempt to reverse the decline in market share resulting from both the Eastern shuttle and PRR service degradation. Happily, even though the actual cars were imperfect, the image/"brand" took hold, and the ATK share of the market is larger than anywhere else. Dave's comments on sheer population notwithstanding, the potential for similar market dominance exist. If we could reinstitute the density and speed of service that CNSM provided between Chi-Milw I have no doubt the ridership would return. That corridor and the St Louis-Chi are two which for multiple reasons ATK has utterly failed to exploit in a functional way. While Iam well aware that the money has never been there, it is still sad that the StL-Chi rouye which could have been bought on the cheap escaped. If this line could have been secured, he ROW could have been upgraded for serious service. If Acela overcomes its shortcomings and the Boston Marketshare solidifies, maybe we can finally pry some real money out of Congress and get some real service elsewhere.
The Capiyol Corridor here is good, but handicapped by constant UP dispatchin sabotage and very slow implementation of state funded track improvements. If they ever get the cab signal/reinstitution of doubletrack Sacto and Martinez the run could be much faster AND reliable.
"That corridor [Chi-Milw] and the St Louis-Chi are two which for multiple reasons ATK has utterly failed to exploit in a functional way."
Those are two of the first three corridors of the Midwest Regional Rail Plan, the third being Chi-Detroit. The three initial lines are supposed to begin 110mph corridor service in 2003. The necessary improvements to the Chicago-Detroit line are COMPLETED, and are being tested in present Amtrak service. The same improvements are beginning on the Chicago-Saint Louis line, and Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison work is included in the budget bill pending before the Wisconsin legislature. And Amtrak, who is the agent of the states on this, is receiving bids to provide 110mph trainsets for the initial routes.
And Amtrak, who is the agent of the states on this, is receiving bids to provide 110mph trainsets for the initial routes.
Why use trainsets. Just re-gear the new P42-DC's for 110. Some old EMD E-units were geared for and did achieve 120 so why not units w/ double the power.
"Why use trainsets? Just re-gear the new P42-DC's for 110."
(1) Amtrak probably wants to get new equipment out of it, so that the trains presently used on the Midwest routes can be used elsewhere in the country.
(2) A trainset would include one or two baggage/mail cars suitable for 110mph operation. It's my understanding that there are NO stand-alone mail or express cars designed for more than 90mph.
(3) Trainsets are the main thing you can get "off the shelf" from European manufacturers like Talgo. Unless the order is huge, cars suitable only for intercity passenger service -- in this case, cafe and lounge cars, in the case of overnight trains, sleeping and dining cars -- are NOT cheap!
>>> The LA-San Diego corridor has plenty of airline traffic, and plenty of auto traffic. ..... Were Amtrak to set up an Acela type operation there, that service would gain market share at the expense of the airlines <<<
I agree with you, but for the train to be competitive for the business traveler, there needs to be some way (like Acela) to increase the speed. The travel time now is just under 3hours, for the approximately 125 mile trip. For a businessman going and returning on the same day that means six hours on the train. Even the Dog makes the trip in about 2.5 hours on its express runs at lower cost.
Tom
You are absolutely correct, Tom. As I posted before, major infrastructure improvements would be required for this to work.
> Even if the federal government pays for railroad track building and maintenance Amtrak would still lose money.>
Do you know that to be a fact ? Farebox recovery ratio is now 92%. $59 million of their $521 million subsidy is for operations. What's the LIRR's ? 45 % ? Want to close it down ? How about the SIR with their farebox recovery of 20 % ?
>Because the airlines are faster and intercity buses are cheeper. >
That is not a logical progression. The toothferry didn't build the airports and the interstates, and Santa elves don't man ATC towers.
Airlines, faster, uh ? New York to Baltimore ? Galesburg to Glenwood Springs ? First you better charter a plane. There is absolutely no empirical evidence in the US or Canada that the parallel bus route gets the rail ridership when the train comes off.
>I see no reason for Amtrak to exist outside of the NEC. >
Because you obvoiusly never used it outside of the NEC and therefore cannot understand it or why its passengers use it.
Alot, if you count all the speeding tickets.
Where did you get the $5 per person on average from? I don't believe you -- the statistics can be distorted to show anything you want, esp. in a governmentally-owned business where creative accounting is a necessity rather than a luxury.
Lexcie
I got the $5 per person stat from The New York Times business section about 3-4 days ago.
They said that AmTrak was making on average $5 per person on the NEC (The NYT stated that the NEC was the ONLY line showing a profit), and that some lines were big money losers, with one section in Wisconsin losing on average $437 per person.
>>>>>>I don't believe you
Look it up for yourself.
Any rumors from the Conspiracy Theorists that it's Bush getting revenge on Jeffords' state? ;-)
I somehow doubt there's any conspiracy involved. A much more likely explanation is the fact that the line loses money even with a state subsidy. I also suspect that ridership has been underwhelming.
I say it's time to kill the Dubya train and modify the route signs from 'B' to 'b' for 'half a B' ...
Just bring back the "T" !!!!!
Invalid ... that'd be LOGICAL. Can't have that. :)
"I guess this means I won't be able to visit my friends at Hempshire college anymore."
Do you know what an intercity bus is?
A slow moving, cramped, expensive, torture chamber on wheels.
"A slow moving"
Petter pan buses often reach speeds of 65 MPH how fast does Amtrak go?
"cramped"
They are hardly cramped. Peter pan buses have plenty of leg run unless you are 6'3 or taller. And I have almost always had the seat next to me empty.
"expensive"
Bus prices are cheeper than Amtrak prices last time I checked.
Trains generally don't hit bridge abutments when the "driver" goes sleepies though. How many busses have they peeled off bridges lately as compared to trains? (not that this argument is going to go anywhere useful) ...
>>Peter pan buses often reach speeds of 65 MPH how fast does Amtrak go? >>
North of Springfield, 59MPH. Big deal.
>>They are hardly cramped. Peter pan buses have plenty of leg run unless you are 6'3 or taller. And I have almost always had the seat next to me empty. >>
Sound like too much service to me. How could they make money ? Must be cross-subsidized from the Charters. You like 18" wide seats ? You like the smelly bathroom in the back ? How about grabbing onto something in your seat everytime the driver turns a corner or changes lanes at 65 MPH ? Could you put up wit that for 1,000 miles, which is what you would have Amtrak's long-haul passengers do ?
>>Bus prices are cheeper than Amtrak prices last time I checked.>>
You get what you pay for, with trailer trash, pot-smoking students as company, and smelly old men as company.
[North of Springfield, 59MPH. Big deal]
Then why does it take 1 hour and 20 minutes just to get from Amherst to Springfield, a distance of twenty (that's right, two-zero) miles on the Vermonter? This according to Amtrak's timetable. How can it take that long to such a short distance? The train must have traveled at much less than 59 MPH if it takes well over an hour just to get from Amherst to Springfield.
Ever hear of schedule padding, typically done by Amtrak when a long or medium distance train enters a corridor ? Springfield TO Amherst takes 65 minutes, which averages 32 MPH. Yeh, it's twisty along that part of the line. Average speed with 8 intermediate stops Amherst - Essex is 43 MPH.
Yes I've heard of schedule padding and I do know that Amtrak does it. But, still, 65 minutes to go just 20 miles? An average speed of 32 MPH between Springfield and Amherst? Then an average speed of 43 MPH from Amherst to Essex Junction? That's slow. No wonder the Vermonter lost money, even with a subsidy from Vermont. Most travelers don't want to take a slow train.
43 MPH isn't that bad. This is not the NEC, and is typical of the rest of Amtrak. The Vermonter does NOT lose money with the Vermont subsidy, and is is by no means an empty train. Your logic would kill the Broadway BMT becase it parallels faster subways and you would surmise no one rides it. Try driving 10 hours, see how long your hunger and bladder holds out, and then calculate average speed.
As an average speed, 43 MPH is not that bad, you're right. I'm sorry, I saw a post here that said something about the Vermonter not making money and went with that.
Let me clear up my position on this issue. I am NOT in favor of the Vermonter being discontinued. If it is as you say, by no means an empty train, then it should be returned to service as soon as it can. But upon hearing that the train lost money even with a subsidy, what was I supposed to think? When you hear that a train is loosing money, even with a state subsidy, the first thing that comes to mind is, "This train must be doing really badly." But now that I hear that the Vermonter was not a poor performer, I believe it needs to be back in service. By the way, I dunno about other people, but if I get hungry or have to take a whiz, I'm looking for the first restaurant or rest area I can find.
And the Broadway BMT line is an excellent subway line and I would never in a million years want to see it killed. My logic would never go for a thing like that. If you're lucky enough to get an N or R train rerouted onto the express track, you get a nice fast run down Broadway. And come July 22nd, regular express service will be returning to the Broadway BMT while the Sixth Avenue IND, with the B and D trains terminating at 34th Street, will be without express service.
Also, has anyone here driven on the road between the freeway in Northampton MA and Amhearst MA? It's 2 lanes and 11 miles of nothing but traffic lights and congestion. Sure a bus can go 65 on the freeway, but when it has the crawl through start and stop traffic (gotta love the poor acceleration) the average terminal to terminal speed drops significantly.
I take a Peter Pan bus from Middletown, CT to New Haven where I catch Amtrak. The price isn't bad (7-8$ and that's just gone up from 6), but it takes nearly an hour. The bus leaved Middletown at 10:25 (usually up to 5 min late) and arrives NHV at 11:15.
I have learned not to run with most railfans say until I hear a 2nd opinion. I happen to know something about the Amtrak 403b law, and it is a no lose deal for Amtrak, or the train is gone (i.e. Alabama's Gulf Breeze).
As far as turning the Vermonter into the Montrealer again to further impove it, Amtrak won't even return Vermont's phone calls. They are pre-occupied with silly ideas like running Monterery-Laredo, but not 72 miles of St Albans-Montreal, which would cost about $1 million a year. They could hit Vermont, Montreal, and Quebec for that easily, selling it as tourism.
Schedule padding to improve on time performance records does not imply that the train travels as slow as the schedule indicates. If the train is running late, it runs faster than the schedule indicates and arrives at the terminal less late. If it's running on time, it arrives early.
Hey try the acela in the air (a.k.a. airplane)
Have you EVER put your brain in gear before posting?
Kinda like Amtrak?
Not to mention that wonderful "bus smell" that sticks to you like death long after you get off ... that wonderful smell of the "chemical potty" ... but hey, runs on oil, must be good to some people. Ever notice that the people that advocate busses over trains would never ride one THEMSELVES?
"but hey, runs on oil, must be good to some people"
Buses like most Amtrak trains run diesel.
I guess this means I won't be able to visit my friends at Hempshire college anymore.
A lot of weed is smoked there?
hahahahah!!!
I have told Mike off about his spellingue before, and he doesn't take any notice...
Lexcie
I was refering to Hampshire college, but the misspelling was intentional. Hempshire is an untra-liberal experimental school started in the 70's by various colleges in the Amhearst area who wanted to rid themselves of the fringe element. Hempshire gives no grades, there are no set majours, you can take as long as you want to graduate and you can squat there after you do graduate. Some students have stayed there so long they have just started teaching. One person there I know is majouring in Role Playing while my friend is dating a sex majour.
I was refering to Hampshire college, but the misspelling was intentional.
I suspected as much.
Why are people posting stuff in my name!!!??? I don't have a friend at HEMPshire college!!!
heh
I'm in Chicago now, went Metrafanning over the weekend, that was quite good. Went out on the BNSF line and saw a few Amtraks go past. Does anyone know about the signalling on that line? I suspect it was CTC, but the signals I saw standing at La Grange Stone Ave seem to be taking ages to clear. Are these signals not automatic and have to be cleared by the dispatcher? After a Metra train went past, it went to stop, then approach limited, then was stuck on approach medium for ages before it went clear... I was totally confused as to why this sequence of aspects since there are no junctions anywhere beyond that point for at least 7 miles, and the nearest crossover is something like 3 miles away (westbound).
Well, I'll be posting about Amtrak when I settle down to my own computer!!!
Lexcie
There is no basis for this statement but rumor!
1) There is no mention of such an announcement on any of the many railfan websites, including the ones that specifically announce news, such as the Northeast-focused Railpace.
2) Amtrak has made no announcements about the Vermonter since the June 8 press release that service was SUSPENDED for needed track work. http://www.amtrak.com/news/archive/suspvermonter.html
3) By law, Amtrak CANNOT abolish a train without announcing so 180 days in advance. For example, when Amtrak decided in late March to kill the unsuccessful Lake Country Limited, it cannot end service until Sept. 23rd. NO SUCH NOTICE HAS BEEN MADE FOR THE VERMONTER.
Even if the rumor were true, which it is NOT, there is no real basis other than blind hatred of Bush for some on this board to reflexively chalk up termination of the Vermonter to Bush punishing Vermont for electing Jeffords.
Thanks for pointing that out John. I have lost count of the number of posts which appear here (and on other websites) which simply repeat rumors as if they were gospel truth.
The Vermontermay be in trouble - or maybe not. People who really are interested can write Amtrak and ask about it.
Besides which, state supported trains don't lose money. The difference between Amtrak's costs for running the train and revenues recieved from it are paid by the state, for a net=0 situation (IE, the same way NYCT operates). It's time Congress decided whether Amtrak is a necessary public service, like Air Traffic Controls and interstate highways, or a business entity that MUST earn a profit. If the latter, it should immediately be sold to private intrests, preferably with a significant influx of cash to meet all existing capital needs through the next fiscal year after the sale. After that, they're on their own.
-Hank
Your suggestion may not be bad. Air Traffic Controls and Highways are public entities but the Airlines and Interstate Busses are PRIVATELY owned and operated. Perhaps a similar arrangement can be reached for Intercity Rail service.
Right! And when you're paying $300 for an unreserved NEC ride between D.C. and NYC, you'll wish otherwise.
I got it from East Rail News. A for pay subscription news service that gets insider information that the free news services do not.
From the Trains Magazine website, news of June 14, 2001:
http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/001/164kbahy.asp#vermonter
Amtrak cannot legally kill a route permanently without 180 days notice, which is why the Janesville train is still running. Furthermore, it is a 403b train that cannot cost Amtrak anything north of Springfield. There is nothing on the weekly NARP Hotline about this.
You're also lazy.
Dr. Zaius! Dr. Zaius!
Which is the Janesville train? Please enlighten me
"Which is the Janesville train? Please enlighten me."
The Lake Country Limited was a daily train that ran between Chicago and Janesville, Wisconsin. It went south into Chicago in the morning and back north to Janesville in the evening. The train was considered a joke by many for various reasons:
1) The train had few passengers, maybe a dozen or so a day and never enough to have more than one coach.
2) The train was supposed to have heavy express business to a factory in Janesville, but the traffic never really materialized. The train had two, sometimes three, Roadrailers at best.
3) It was a bit slower than the Thruway bus that stopped in Janesville on the way between Madison and Chicago four times daily. The train went fast on Metra trackage to Fox Lake, but between Fox Lake and Janesville it ran slow (30 or 40mph, IIRC) on Wisconsin Southern rails.
4) Though the train stopped near Lake Geneva, which is a major getaway spot for Chicagoans, the south in the morning - north in the evening schedule precluded day trips.
5) It's only a short distance from Janesville to Madison, the captial of Wisconsin and the home of the state University. Many considered it scandalous that the train wasn't extended those last miles to a REAL destination with a population in the six digits instead of the mid-five digits.
All that said, Amtrak decided to kill the train. With the notice requirement, it cannot be terminated until late September. In the meantime, it runs only one day a week, Saturday.
Why not one day a month?
Jersey Mike, it's about time you stopped posting in my handle -- I don't have a subscription to East Rail News (and on the basis of this Vermonter argument, ERN spews rumours like an Englishman). Here's a refuttal from an informed source:
Well, if I may borrow a phrase from Mark Twain, reports of the death of Amtrak's Vermonter appear to have been greatly exaggerated. A friend of mine very kindly sent me this correspondence, which suggests that the New England Central is rehabilitating the track and that the Vermonter will return in due course.
---Forwarded Message---
From: Richard Jay Solomon
Subject: Re: Fwd: FW: Amtrak's Vermonter Gone For Good
I live on the Vermonter's path & there is nothing in the papers about permanent cancellation. As far as I can tell, NECR is rebuilding the track and freights are moving north regularly. Of course it would be nice if they picked up passengers in Palmer where they stop anyway, but that's too much to ask the Amtrak Neaderthals.
The Vermonter either uses former Metroliner equipment at the south end for cab-control, or it has a diesel at each end (which must make switching at New Haven from the electric engine a bit complicated). This permits simple reversing at Palmer to go up the NECR (CV). There has been discussion about building a station platform in Palmer on the west side of the crossing and a direct chord from CSX (B&A) to the CV (NECR). Both RRs are single track in the vicinity of the crossing, though there are passing sidings on the east and south sides. Actually the station would be in the town of Monson due to the screwy border between Palmer and Monson, which would give me an Amtrak stop. But so far neither town wants to put up the minimum $ Amtrak requires to fulfill OSHA, which I mentioned in my previous message.
Still, with the easy reversing moves and no passenger stop, the Vermonter manages to kill a lot of time in Palmer instead of just proceeding forthwith like trains in Europe. The station is often crawling with railfans during the switching move, since the Lake Shores meet there when they are late (which is always) and lots of freights go by on both RRs. It's also a photogenic spot, due to the massive, triangular Richardson station (somewhat dilapidated) and the general terrain. (This station not only was designed by the famous HHR, but Fredrick Law Olmsted designed the adjacent park as part of the station. The brilliant town officials filled in the park as a local dump years ago, but some local preservationists have dug part of it up and discovered the original Olmsted fountains and stone benches and are trying to raise a Federal grant to restore the park -- the station is owned by a local antique dealer and it looks it.)
It takes twice as long to take The Vermonter with no passenger stops from Springfield to Amherst as to drive. i have chased the train at leisurely speeds and gotten more than one photostop on the route.
The State of Vermont subsidizes the entire train, even the passengers in CT and Mass. Too bad it doesn't run the final 50 miles to Montreal like the former Montrealer did -- the bus connection sucks.
Richard
Fwd by: Lexcie
Well a few days ago they posted a story where Amtrak was insisting that they had no intention of canceling Vermonter service. I didn't post it because I feltit was sort of anti-climactic.
And the only reason I was posting under your name is because you screwed up my cookie.
In responce to the attached message I have seen those swarms of Railfans and I have even taken some pictures of them from the train. Does this make me a railfanfan?
Ex-Shaker Heights PCC #70 now on Brooklyn soil was announced here days ago. So, I took a look today to see for myself.
At first look when you eyeball it, being an ex-TCRT PCC, it's basically a sister car to our Newark City Subway PCC's. I did notice plenty of rust and maybe some rot near the standee windows. A look inside showed some rusted metal above the operators area.
I certainly wish Bob D and Jan Lorenzen much luck on this car and possibly the others enroute to Brooklyn. This car appears to need a lot of body work. When the others arrive, where will they be stored ? The salt air by the dock isn't much help.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, that's the classic St. Louie rot. Even the Newark cars have it, and the cars in SF already. This is something that we are addressing after we get her going. What makes it look worst is the plain steel patches laid over the original metal, and rust just burst through after a few years service. At least its not as bad as the rot we found on the Boston cars, and certainly no where near the amount of Bondo. The bodies on the Shaker cars are actually pretty straight.
Everything checks out so far. We dusted everthing off control wize and finally put 600v on #70 Tuesday, and everything works fine with the motors cut out. Want to lube the pedals some more, and wait for the weekend's no parking on the tracks before letting her loose.
The other 11 cars are being stored on the pier in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. The 5th car came tonight.
This is fun!
OK, Jan, here is a bit of solemn advice: before you take
power for real, megger test the motors! The easiest way
is via the fingers in the reverser, or was this car modified
for MU operation? Those cars have been sitting for a long time.
Check to make sure the brushes in the traction motors and the
motor-generator set aren't frozen, otherwise you're in for a
flashover. Every low-voltage interlock contact in the control
group should be gone over lightly with a fine file, they are
probably all oxidized and the car will run most unsatisfactorily.
Also, in general, make sure that all the moving parts in the control group are unstuck and lubricated so that they can move freely. Sometimes parts begin to stick which can be a big problem.
Meggering the motors - definately a good idea. Sometimes a marginal motor will be satisfactory for a while and then suddenly fault with a good flash bang and conk out the car. You might also want to test each magnetic track brake as well because on the all electric PCC they not only keep the car in place while it's stopped but they are your emergency brakes as well.
Lastly, have fun. All electric PCCs are great streetcars to drive. Do you guys have a reasonably lengthy section of straight track where you can put the PCCs through their paces?
-Robert King
70 was run as recently as a year ago by Buffalo, but its a good idea to check everything out as if it was the worst case scenario.
First thing I did was unstick the pedals and followed the rods back to the controller. WD40 at first, followed by lithium grease on the moving parts. Grease gun on all the fittings that have em. Contact cleaner and a brass brush on the contacts. The car is surprisingly clean underneath.
Good tips from Jeff.
The track bracks work great - as soon as 32v came on *KLOMP*!
The MU cars are a little different in yet another respect - the deadman pedal acually has two "on" positions, the operating position up to half way down, and the lock in position for train ops. If you aren't aware of it, you could sit there swearing at the %#^$%^ thing wondering why the pedals are #$@%@#$'ed up. This feature is not on the Boston air cars we have or on Eric's SEPTA car on 4th Ave. Interesting differences on a "standard" car.
As my assistant Kevin says "It's not rocket science - its brain surgery".
Anybody have a good source for walnut shells for the rust blaster?
I'd like to come and visit sometime. When are people generally
around and working? Do you have an inspection pit?
I've worked on MU cars were the deadman has only two positions
and the reverser controller is what keys the stand to the trainlines.
Then again, these cars that you have were modified by Shaker and
were built as non-MU cars. The GE MU PCC group (17KM12N5) is
probably the worst ever for maintenance, except maybe MCM which
was only used on the Boston picture windows.
Of which we have BOTH types!! HaHAHAHAHAHAH I slagged GE controls in the past, but 55 year old technology that still works can't be all that bad.
The books call for 32V batteries, the MG will output a little more than that, just like a automobile's system which outputs around 14v vs 12v batteries. The voltage regulator needs to be in good shape. Boston made some electronic PC board replacements, but the Shaker car still has it original.
Because of our high water table at the pier, we've had to make do without a pit, but I hope this won't be for long. I can't really be on my back doing this all the time. We were looking at a half height pit, that we could sit on a wheeled office chair in.
Somebody is usually there during the week mostly in the afternoons, and Saturdays on occasion. Let me know what day you'd like to get absolutely filthy in car dirt, and I'll be glad to have you there with us.
No pit?! I can't imagine maintaining PCC cars without one.
There is barely enough ground clearance to remove the compartment
covers, and inspecting the commutators and brushes and getting to
most of the truck lube points is impossible.
If you have the track space for an approach, instead of going down
for a pit, ramp the tracks up in the air.
Email me privately if you want to discuss further.
Its tough to do, but I've been doing the inspections/lubing on my back. I'm skinny enough to do it, but I really could be doing this much better. We are working on it. We are also kind of cramped for space and time too.
In the shop we have the rails on ties on top of the smooth concrete floor, which we can scoot around on crawlers under the car to do everything, which is ok for the time being. One rail is removed under the middle of the car, and I can get at everything with relative ease. To get 70 in there 3303 needs to be moved out first. We are planning to dig the half height pit there when we get time.
You can email me too, I welcome it. I should be in Red Hook tomorrow afternoon if my meeting with Lufthansa ends early. I design aircraft interiors, so I need to pay the bills first.
This weekend I will be at Trolleyville getting educated on SHRT MU car idiosyncrasies, apprently there are some real amusing (*sarcasm*) ones to be aware of.
Stay tuned.
Shouldn't the 32v really be in the range of 36 to 40v?
I don't know much at all about the General Electric PCC equipment, but with Westinghouse 37.5 volts for the low voltage system is the ideal specification and anywhere within the range of 36 to 40 volts considered acceptable for operation.
-Robert King
I wonder if by some off chance I ever rode it. I spent every summer in Cleveland from 1973 through 1977 and rode the Shaker Heights and Van Aiken PCCs often. During that time, one's trolley pole became disconnected to the wire and it rolled backwards with a full load of passengers for several miles. Fortunately it didn't hit anything. I was last there in 1981 and shortly thereafter the PCCs were replaced.
What a shame!
E_DOG
A PCC roll backwards for miles? That would require some combination of mechanical failures on the car and operator error.
There was a major mechanical error and now that I think about it I don't know why the operator was unable to stop it. Believe it or not it could have been as simple as him stepping out for a moment and letting the car get away from him. I do know that it happened in August; 1974, 75, 76, or 77, I'm not sure.
E_DOG
It sounds to me that the car lost the entire MG-Battery circuit. Highly unusual for that kind of catistrophic failure on an all-electric PCC, but it's possible. What's strange is that the shaft brakes are spring applied and electricly released, so when 32 volt power was lost (along with 600volt) the shaft brakes should have applied.
RTA was having all kinds of unusual happenings in the middle 70's, including a couple of head-ons, and strange car failures, so who knows. Stuff like that tends to get covered up pretty good almost 30 years after the fact.
It is possible to have a total brake failure on all electric PCCs and, while uncommon, it was known to happen to unrebuilt TTC all electrics in the 1970s and very early 80s.
One operator I know who retired last year had a complete brake failure in an unrebuilt PCC when he stepped on the brake pedal to apply some dynamic braking down the hill leading into the Atlantic Ave. underpass on the King (my favourite!) streetcar line so he wouldn't be going through it too fast as there is a severe speed restriction there. The brakes eventually did come back while the operator had his foot all the way down on the break pedal which obviously resulted in an emergency brake application. The same about this sort of thing being covered up by the TTC after a while applies here too.
--
This operator's (Ray Madden's) last shift was an all night PCC fan trip, so if you haven't seen the pictures yet you can take a look at them on my website:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/
-Robert King
When that happens, center the reverser, then call the shop for
a tow.
It's strange how things like that will stick in your mind. I remember that incident almost as well as when Elvis died. I was there (Cleveland) at my grandparents house when that happened as well, and when they caught Son of Sam that same month I did a victory dance in Grandma's living room. I guess the PCC incident is so vividly remembered because we'd just gotten through riding them. The RTA, like Cleveland itself, was a pile of junk back then.
E_DOG
I remember the incident, for some reason the operator lost battery power after pulling the pole (if your batteries are NFG and the car was mostly running off the MG this is possible). The car then has no power to apply drum brakes, nor can the track brakes apply. The last hope you have is to throw the manual levers on the brake actuators, but on these wide cars, it is real tough to get at them when the car starts rolling away from you.
Shaker had alot of wierd events like that during that period of time. Some was mechanical, some were new operators, and some was the GO's during the line's reconstruction.
I am sure most lines had some real wierd things happen in the PCC's during the 70/80's too. These are the equivalent to the events that you read about in your traction history books about the last days of interurban lines.
That doesn't quite make sense. The drum brakes on all-electric
cars are spring-applied. Loss of B+ means those brakes come on
full. Of course, if the linings are worn down, they don't do
much, but they should hold a stopped car on a grade.
Maybe the operator left the car in emergency, so that the track
brakes were the only things holding.
If I read things right, the brake actuators need to be active with car power to make them grab. Otherwise a dead car could not be moved.
Two people car push a dead car on level track.
Usually when you have to move a dead all-electric, the brake actuators will be manually released. (WH actuators are easier to release than GE's, the WH's have a lever while the GE's have to be released with a long handle that is carried inside (usually under a seat). The release is done after being coupled for obvious reasons.
Like Dan sez, the actuators have to be cut out if the car is
completely dead. On the WABCO actuators the operating solenoid
pushes against the spring tension of the drum, releasing the brake
in stages as the voltage to the actuator is increased (either via
contacts on the braking controller or through the Friction Brake
relays). On the GE actuator, things are more complicated (naturally)
A heavy solenoid is activated with the Friction Brake Reset switch.
This pulls in the actuator against a heavy spring and releases the
brakes. Once the solenoid pulls in, a smaller holding current is
used to keep it pulled in. Another solenoid provides the positive
force to operate the brakes. The thing draws less current on the
average than the WABCO version. If you lose the B+, the holding
coil drops out and the spring applies the brakes in emergency.
Where would I be able to get a copy of the technical references for Westinghouse all electric PCC equipment? Requests to the most logical place to try first have gone ignored for a while now.
-Robert King
The whole car or just the control package?
I've been trying to get ahold of either, but so far without any success at all.
I will make one last try in early July to see if I can get copies of the various technical references for Westinghouse all electric PCC equipment before I more or less officialy give up unless I can find another source.
-Robert King
If you are trying to get this stuff from Westinghouse Adtranz,
forget it. They're not going to deal with you as a private
individual. Branford does not have any WH all-electric equipment,
so I doubt we have any reference material, but Seashore should
have it.
There are some training manuals around written by SEPTA that are useful.
We were playing with that car today, and there seems to be some sort of problem where the emergency relay being activated, and the car not being able to move. Also, in the elcetrical compartment, we found a timer, which is not on the original 1953 wiring diagram. On the front truck, there is a lever type thing hanging down, connected to a switch, with a pair of wires going into the electrical compartment. The thing itself looks an awful lot like a tripcock on subway cars, and that would also explain the timer, which would ensure that the car did not move for some time after being tripped. I have never heard of anything like that on a trolley, however . . . .
I'm sure when Jan gets back from Ohio he'll have the answer!
I think Shaker put trippers on some of the PCC cars which had to
share tracks with the rapid transit line...maybe a Cleveland
expert knows?
Im not a Cleveland expert by any means, but I do know that CTS required trippers on anything running on the Rapid, so Shaker's PCC's got trippers as well, since they shared trackage between E55th St. and Terminal Tower.
That would at least explain who put it there. Would anyone by any chance remember which side (left or right) the trippers are on? Because usually, at least in subways, the tripper is on the front of the truck, and this one is on the back. The real problem is figuring out how exatcly the mechanism worked, and whether there is any documentation about it, so that it can be fixed. But the interesting thing is that it looks like it was done very crudely, just a rectangular strip of metal, that looks like it was cut from something else, attached to a simple switch. I bet that when it got tripped, you had to get out to kick it back into place.
The trippers used were mounted in or near the front truck, and should be connected to the master controller or the brake circuit. They were standard trippers and if tripped would apply full dynamic brake plus track brake. I was on a 3 car Pullman train that tripped at the signal at E55 on the Shaker track before the switch. The whole train came to the shuddering stop that all-electric's made in full emergency.
On the Minneapolis and ex-SLPS cars the tripper was mounted in the truck cutout in the skirt. On the Pullmans a small cutout was made in the full skirt for the tripper. I don't think what you were referring to was the tripper, but I am reporting 1960's, not RTA's period. I don't know what they did.
You are right as to kicking the tripper to reset it. Woe be to the operator who tripped with a trainmaster on board. The penalty was 3 days off without pay. Ouch!!!
My advice to you since you'll be running these in the streets
is to remove them and bypass the switch and timer in the emergency
loop circuit.
The tripper is on the front truck, RH, just aft of the right rear wheel. And yes, these stick out quite a ways on sharp radius curves, so we have to seriously consider removing them. They were installed to enable the Shaker cars to run on the CTS shared trackage.
1967, Tony Musante, Martin Sheen, Beau Bridges - Two street punks insult and terrorize a carload of passengers on WF LoV's on the IRT. Just in case you're here now and have cable/pizza pan teevee ... it's the third avenue el as I remember it. :)
Authentic car interiors too ... Mt Eden Ave station as well ...
YO --- SELKIRK - I have a full length video of that movie - great movie - they do their first killing
in view of the E. 183rd St downtown el station
house - it was the only one on the Bronx 3rd Ave.
that had a somewhat "Manhattan 3rd Ave. El Stationhouse" look - how many times I was on rooftops on those two corner buildings around time of the movie filming, getting B&W shots of the el and slides in color - have about 500+ slides from
1961 thru closing of the el in Bronx alone - not to
mention the hundreds of B&W on it too - great movie
but how did the 3rd Ave el train with the punks terrorizing the passerngers get off the EL and into
the (appears to be) Jerome line subway entrance at
River Ave - it looks like a 3-portal tunnel and the
3rd Ave El connects with the Wh Pl Rd Line which
goes into a 2-track tunnel at 149th & Brook Ave.
YEAH - I know - it was filmed on 3rd Ave, but was supposed to represent a mainline el = another
note - you know the inside of the WF cars - have
a blind end with an un-obstructed view of that
end of the car, seats, end ads, (ie NO INWARD BULKHEAD) - and the motor cab end has a sort of
Inward Body Bulkhead forming the rear of the MM cab
and a "booth" type area for a two-seater cushion with a small open non-glass "window" opening.
(Remember, thats where the $ 3.00 bill limp wrist
gets dumped by Tony Musante after a slapping around)
WELL, if you look closely--- the car the way it is filmed (or scenes are filmed) looks like it has
2 motorman cabs - the scene angles (front of car to rear- rear of car to front --keep changing - but its like the camera stayed in one place and the actors had to move around their positions to reflect the idea of looking down one end of the car, then turning around - walking to the other end of the car and looking down at the opposite end. I was in the
midst years ago of building my two-O-Scale 1939 WF cars with FULL EXACT interior details (fans, bulkhead at one end w/ MM CAB, seat cushions (they
were different than low-v standard seats of the
single- ass, single cushion variety) and saw this
video I got (Incident) with my large pizza & 2 pepsi's and nearly had a stroke thinking ther WF cars had 2 MM cabs as appeared in the car the actors were in - and almost thought I screwed up my two models till my transit photo documentation of those cars proved me and my models were correct - but the
movie really threw me - if you taped the movie - check this "Hollyweird" camera work out.
Great movie but very violent, verbal-graphic (thats the way it WUZ back then in REAL LIFE of 1964 )- loved the old IRISH Station token clerk scene - he
probably worked on the Manhattann el stations where
my Manhattan el roots come from. I copied the
station and running scenes searately onto another tape for transit tape view purposes...I cant
remember the public reaction to that movie when it
first came out back in 64 - can you?
By the way, they filmed the bar scene in the bar
at the NW corner of 183rd & 3rd next to the el
stairway - I used that bar once in my picturetaking days to get a few beers a take a whizzzzzz on a warm summer day around 1967 or so - it looked the same as the movie showed it - would you want to walk into it TODAY AND HOIST A FEW!!
I know you enjoyed the movie - you and I were up
thru all those neighborhoods the 3AV L ran thru...ps
why do you call the store HONARKS PIGWAY I told you
about!!!
ANYWAY - the movie reflects the Bronx near the tail end of the great years of the Bronx- and in a few
more years it all started downhill ---remember the "natives" screamed to have the el torn down to improve the neighborhood - and after 1973 and the el removal, the whoLe area including 3rd Ave went down
the toilet big time - especially below l80th st..
As Der Bingle said - Thanks for the memories....!
<< As Der Bingle said - Thanks for the memories....! >>
That was Bob Hope's signature line, not Bing Crosby's.
RESPONSE TO DAVE - "ya got me....!" Yes, you are right - Bob Hope coined that phrase - but he worked so much with"der bingle" that I got them mixed up--that happens when you get over 30, or is it 40,
maybe 50 or so. Thanks for the correction Dave !
PS: I'll probably hear it from Selkirk too - but I dont suspect he listened to much Crosby & Hope - more like Crosby, Stills and Nash!!!!
Regards - Joe F
AHEM! Did both actually ... and since BING CROSBY invented VIDEO TAPE (anybody knew this?) ... Bing Crosby founded the Ampex Corporation so that he could "phone it in" ... also produced Hogan's Heroes. But I digress ... there's only two styles of music that I just can't handle - Opera and Yahoo C&W ... when ya live in upstate No Yuk, you get way too much of the latter ... but I prefer jazz first ...
Yeah, found the film amusing (kept me from getting much done) strictly from the "that's the 3rd Avenue EL - I don't care if they have it signed up as the Jerome" and those WERE the real deal WF cars that they shot it in. And I'm always willing to forgive the inconsistencies of movie directors when all they care about is the story itself, not railfan satisfying ... I was just glad to see a so-called "NYC subway car" that REALLY WAS one. How many times are NYC subway cars Toronto or LA Red? :)
Honark's Pigway ... well ... the operation was owned by the Fusco brothers near the end, the parking lot across the street from it was on OUR property and the folks who owned it were a bit rude and piggish. One night, in a fit of pique, we climed up on a ladder on the Webster Avenue side of the store and rearranged the sign over the threshhold from "Honig's Parkway" and swapped out the letters to say "Honark's Pigway" ... they weren't amused but never figured out who did it to them or why. They were lousy landlords. :)
Interesting movie but I liked "Pelham" more.
Why does it take 45 minutes for the train to go from 125th Street to Grand Central? An awful long time seems to pass on the train between those two stops....
Sure it was a crappy movie ... better than the 45 minute trip between the two points is that there was only one stop ... that was a nice 450 mile long express dash ... but what did it for me is seeing the insides of third avenue el equipment in all its pristine ugliness with bulbs that were a LOT brighter than for real ... not many movies done with the old IRT gear ... redbirds in Pelham? (yawn) :)
Authentic car interiors even though it was a 'stage set' and not a real car.
I think there is a website that gave details on how the production company wrote to St. Louis Car Company for the blueprints since the NYCT wasn't willing to let them film a violent flick on a real car.
BMTman
If that was a mockup, it was done VERY well right down to the steel dust under the metal wings of the glass. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was done with a car removed from service but I can accept that someone built it for a stage shot too - after all, everything seemed to happen in that one car (interspersed with externals of WF cars coming around curves and some aerial shots of the 3rd avenue el at night) ... the turnstiles were right also as were other details. I'm impressed from that standpoint. The movie itself was a waste, but I was perfectly willing to sit glued to the set for the car shots. :)
Just saw a commercial that appears to take place in a subway/transit type system. It starts off with the group jumping through the turnstyles, than "closing" a car for "repairs" as they turn it into a club. The ad is for some malt beer. At the end they show the train pulling away on a surface line and a red signal with two aspects. Any guesses on what system might have been used to film the commercial?
Sounds like Smirnoff / ICE something...
This was discussed a few days ago. The commercial was filmed on the Barcelona, Spain Metro.
And the first two response to this post if from RTO and the comercial is for an Alcoholic Beverage >G<.
Someone in the SubTalk said he got some bourches from the subway. It is about the changes will be brought by Washington Bridge filp. Also 63rd Street connector will be fully opened in September as the people said on the board. There are so many changes in the near future. I'm afraid there will have a lot of inconveniece made by the ignorance of the passengers. Distributing brochures is not enough because they won't really read them. The only way to solve this problem is to have a big campaign to publicize these changes.
Here some suggestions for the campaign.
Slogans first:
1.B and D are not the way to Brooklyn now, use either F or Q.
2.Q don't pass the 6th now, use the new F instead.
3.V serves the 6th through the 53rd in the morning and night.
Please add some more which are ryhm and easy to remember.
Large-sized notices should be post at the affected stations.
Use simple sentence to attract the passengers.
eg.(B) to Coney Island -> (F) to Dekalb and (Q) to Coney Island
Also MTA can utillize the mass media too if they like.
I had read some sugesstion made by the subtalkker. May be a quiz after reading the brochure is needed.
Here are some relavant questions quoted from subtalk.cgi?read=228540 written by American Pig:
1.After the changes take effect, which of the following lines will NOT be running to Brooklyn?
A. B
B. D
C. F
D. A and B
E. A and C
2.Which of the following streets will the Q NOT run along when the changes go into effect?
A. Flatbush Avenue Extension
B. West Brighton Avenue
C. Broadway
D. Hylan Boulevard
E. Canal Street
I made this simple questions for the 63rd Connector:
3.When the 63rd connector is opened, which line will be shorten to Court Square in the rush hours?
A.E
B.N
C.R
D.G
E.V
There should be more suggestions here, please raise them up.
I believe you're somewhat confused. There aren't any trains that run over the Washington bridge, at least not in New York City.
And now, the average goose answers the quiz.
1. No trains will run to Brooklyn, ever. Right?
2. The guy next to me smells bad. Wait--you mean that the Q won't be running on all of those streets?! Crap!!
3. I have no more time to answer your stupid questions, I'm busy preventing people from getting to where they need to be on time by attempting to adhere to the ground and fighting gravity with all of my might on the stairs. Augh! You seem to have stabbed me with a handy nearby homeless man. I can feel the tuberculosi....
He was not available for further questioning.
Dan
63rd St service opening in September? That's good news. If true, that would mean only a month's delay from the original goal...
Can anyone confirm this?
63 St has service now, although only by GO. V train service currently scheduled to start Mid-November '01, pushing the F to 63 St full-time.
To amplify Alex's comments: The scheduled start of V service is now the week of November 11, 2001. This is not rumor, conjecture, or speculation. It is fact. It is also, of course, subject to change.
David
RonInBayside, it may be just my mistake. Actually, I forget the opening date, can anyone tell me please?
Sunday Nov. 11th the F will officially run via the 63rd St. connection with no GO. The next day will be the inauguration of V service. The T/O's and C/R's, I expect, should start picking sometime in August, pending review of the work programs by the union. At that time, with the new G service plan, the conductor work programs will answer the questions pertaining to the future of OPTO on the G line.
Huh?..... WHAT?
It is the MANHATTAN BRIDGE not the Washington Bridge.
The brochures are just the starting point. As the July 22 date gets closer there wil be signs posted all over the stations that are affected by the change. The changes have been in the local newspapers for some time because of the Grand Street station service limitations. There will probably be signs in all the trains on the affected lines as well.
But people won't read them anyway.
The signs will be at every single station, even remotely affected areas such as Rockaway Park to Pelham Bay Park (like they do with 63st GO notices). They may even be in PATH. Seat drops on the LIRR, and possibly MNRR.
What they should do: Pay lots of $$ to take out ads on the FRONT PAGE of all the newspapers. Run a commercial at the same time on every single channel at 15 minute intervals during prime time. Make the new map available two weeks in advance and personally distribute to customers at their home stations as they return from work, with a memo asking them to familiarize themselves with the changes.
25% of the people affected will then understand.
If this subway change is like any others, there will be articles about it in the newspapers before it happens. There will be brochures about 2 weeks before it happens. And most people will figure it out anyway, because every Manhattan-bound train goes into... Manhattan, and the place is only 1.5 miles wide. If they are really on a line taking them the wrong way, they can ask someone. Of course they will get an answer that begins with "AAAAh, who knows what they're doing here?!? Anyway take the..." And if they are lost, in two days they will know how to get where they need to go. Most people do NOT need to know about every change and its details, even though we do. Most just need to know which trains stop at their station, which one goes to where they work, and how to change for the Lexington line.
It's kind of like when all 3 Baltimore TV channels changed networks. They set up all kinds of information hot lines. My mother-in-law, who was 80 at the time and was educated only through elementary school in Poland said, "If it's not on 2, I'll try 11, if it's not on 11, I'll try 13. It's got to be somewhere." If one train doesn't go to 6th Avenue, some other one will. If one train doesn't go down Broadway, some other one will. They conductors can announce, "This train does NOT stop at Queens Plaza", if true. etc. etc.
BTW, when is the big change, and how do I get a brochure, without going to NYC?
I admit that there is a lot of mistake here. Firstly, I mistaken Manhattan Bridge into Washington Bridge. Secondly, I made an mistake on typing the openning date of the 63rd Street Connector. Thirdly, I mistakely post American Pig's Message to here(Which actually is a joke). I owe an apology to everyone who read this thread.
It's funny, because we were just talking about the Washington Bridge having provisions for trains from the tracks at 168th St. on another thread. If there were tracks over it, the "service change" would simply be the C being "cut back" to 168th (where it ends now) with shuttle buses replacing the service.
"Washington Bridge" != "George Washington Bridge"
The former connects Manhattan and the Bronx.
The latter connects Manhattan and Fort Lee.
They are very close to each other, both in name and in distance. They are, nonetheless, very different bridges.
Ok... I've no idea what we're talking about here..
...I just came in for the free apology.
:)
The TA is actively recruiting people who speak Chinese to help avoid and eliminate confusion regarding the forthcoming service changes. You should pay close attention to them.
Check it out:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/chicago/
Some lines also have completed station-by-station descriptions by yours truly, while other lines are still works in progress.
Stay tuned for further updates.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks Dave for all your hard work, by the way...
-Dave
Excellent, Dave C! I'm glad we in Boston gave you a leave-of-absence to go back to Chicago :-)
No problem... Amazing what things one can accomplish when one is unemployed. :-)
Now if I can just get my dishes done...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wow, great posting!
Makes me wish the TA had never torn down the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan. I'm sure it would have looked something like the Loop does today.
I like it a lot. The narratives and pictures of stations in the urban context add a lot.
Have you taken pictures of the Dearborn subway yet? If not, look for the sign on LaSalle's mezzanine "Ladies watch your heels on escalators". The Grand/State station has an Ohio exit, that was apparently never used, but the built in signs are there.
I have a digitalized pics of these I was going to use for something, someday- could you use 'em?
Sure send them along!
-Dave
To your address listed in the posting, I assume. Any size recommendations?
I'll answer on Dave's behalf - he tells me that generally he reduces them to around 800x600 pixels @ 24 bit color @ 75% jpeg compression, but he can handle whatever (larger) size you send. I've furnished pics to him following those guidelines (see the NJCL section of this website) and I don't think he's had to do anything to them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't have any pics of the subway portions, mainly because my crappy little camera isn't capable of taking low-light photos. Hopefully someday I'll have a digital camera and be able to get some decent pics of Chicago's subway stations. I'd also love to get some good shots of at least one of the crossover chambers, as well as the bellmouth on the Blue Line just west of the Clark/Lake stop. Not sure if that would be possible without leaving the train, though. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
What ASA film are you using? I've had reasonable success in the NYC subway -- not perfect, but reasonable -- with 400 ASA film on my 35mm camera. Yes, the flash stays off (usually).
I usually use 400 speed film (35mm). However, my camera doesn't allow me to adjust the shutter speed at all. (It's one of those little point-and-shoot cameras I bought at K-Mart for $50 about ten years ago... I'm actually amazed it even still works!) I think its default shutter speed may be a little fast anyway, since I've noticed my photos seem to look a little under-exposed compared to other CTA photos on this site of the same stations. However, my CTA photos were actually taken a while ago, so I can't remember offhand exactly what film speed I was using.
A good professional-quality camera (along with tripod, lenses, and other associated toys) has been on my wish list for many years now, but somehow there's always something else that seems to take priority whenever I find myself with some extra cash.
-- David
Chicago, IL
FWIW, my camera falls at neither extreme. It's a fairly high-quality all-automatic zoom camera (model number available on request). I spent about $160 for it via eBay.
I wouldn't want a professional-quality camera. When I see a J train signed as an M to Bedford Park Boulevard, I want to get a picture now, before the train pulls out, and that doesn't leave much time for adjusting settings manually. I also want to be able to quickly put the camera back in my bag where it's less likely to be stolen. (I also take lots of pictures while driving -- yes, at full highway speed -- and anything that requires either concentration or a second hand is simply out of the question.)
On a similar vein, someday I'd also like to get some good nighttime photos of the el portions out in the neighborhoods. The L takes on a whole new character when the sun goes down, and it would be great to capture that. I also have this fantasy of taking a good time-exposure photo of a passing train during a nighttime snowfall, with a virtual electric storm of arcing along the third rail.
Some years ago there was a photo essay in the Chicago Tribune Magazine which had some excellent night photos of the L. Anybody remember what issues that was? I'd love to get my hands on a copy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I have the same problem as you. I have a crappy digital camera I got for free that I use to take all my pictures that are up on this site. Notice that there are only two subway stations on the MARTA station by stations, those were the only stations that were bright enough for the pictures to come out somewhat decently.
I plan on checking out a super phat Sony Mavica digital camera from my school some time soon, and I'm going to go on a marathon of taking subway photos.
Rob, Dave C., et al - you don't have to have the absolute latest technology to take good photos in the subway or on the elevated, and in fact I think that much of the latest stuff (digital included - no offense to the digital fans out there, but I'm not one of them) really gets in the way of doing a good job because it makes it too easy. Most of the photos that I've sent Dave so far for the NJCL section were taken with a 30 year old Canon FTb, equipped with a variety of lenses (none newer than 20 years old); a few were taken with a Minolta point-and-shoot that I bought when I found myself about to embark on a Peter Witt fantrip in Philly in 1996 and realized I didn't have a camera with me. Many of my other photos, though, have been taken with one of several Ihagee Exakta cameras that I own; these beasts were produced in Dresden, (East) Germany beginning in the mid-'30s through about 1969. Manual everything - but the lenses that I have are mostly top-notch, and while I wouldn't recommend buying a used Exakta today (simply because almost no one will repair them) they do an excellent job. Good used manual-focus Canons are readily available; you can get a good body with 50mm lens, plus 28mm or 35mm wide angle and a 70-210mm or 100-300mm zoom for under $500 - and that's with all the optics being Canon brand, as I would recommend. (Get the 70-210mm unless you REALLY need the long zoom - it's a lot easier to handle. Unfortunately, I have the 100-300mm; Jr. has the 70-210mm.)
The other key element is the film. All of the shots that I've taken for the NJCL section are shot on Kodachrome - some on K-25 (now discontinued), the rest on K-64. There is also a K-200 which I personally don't like as well as the other two, but it's a good film nonetheless. Use a tripod and the appropriate filters (make your selection from a good local camera store - not mail order, B&H, or some other megastore - where you can get good advice) and you can take excellent pics in the subway without resorting to flash (and remember to get a permit from the TA first for the tripod - you don't want them confiscating your equipment). With K-200 and the appropriate filter your exposure times will be around 1/4 second at 3.5 or 2.8, longer if you want to close down the lens for better depth of field. (I've used 2 seconds with 5.6 and K-64 in a similarly-lit environment with reasonable results - but your best bet will be to experiment and bracket your exposures.)
Happy shooting!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. I have a Canon SureShot 35mm automatic camera, but the only reason I never use it is because I don't want to pay to develop film all the time. However, I'm going to go to Sao Paulo later in the summer, and I was going to take the Canon to get good shots of the SP Metro. Since their system is mostly underground and dimly lit and I'm not going to use a flash, I was trying to find the right kind of film to use. What speeds are the film you mentioned? I was doing a little research on film photography and according to Kodak higher speeds work better in low light, but they are also more grainier (sp?). Also, higher speeds (1600 and higher, which I doubt I'd use) are affected by the new metal detectors that are in airports now. Basically, is the K-64 the best for dimly lit subway stations, if not, what brands and speeds do you, or anybody else recommend? As far as I know, I can't use any filters on my camera. Also, can film be developed at the store onto a PhotoCD? I hope so, it'll save me an extra step to get it on the computer.
Rob, Kodachrome comes in ASA 64 and 200 nowadays (25 isn't available any more). 200 would be the recommended speed for use in the subways, although I'm a stubborn enough old fogey that I continue to use the slower film regardless (there is a grain difference, but it's not significant). Kodachrome is a slide film that requires special processing (it's not the same as Ektachrome/Fujichrome); although Kodak does license the process, I don't know of any independent labs that process it any more. All of mine goes to the Kodak lab in Fair Lawn, New Jersey, via my local camera store. (Kodak does offer prepaid mailers which you can get at almost any camera store that sells Kodachrome or Ektachrome; I used them for years before moving to New Jersey and getting two-day turnaround through the local store for the same price - and no postage expense.) Film runs about $8 per roll (36 exposures) and the same for processing. Having them transferred to a photo CD can probably be done at your local camera store, but Kodak doesn't offer that service directly as far as I know. The biggest advantage of Kodachrome, besides its near-perfect color rendition, is that it is archivally stable, something no other film can claim.
You mentioned the graininess issue; that can be a problem with print film or E-6 process slide film (Ektachrome and Fujichrome, including Velvia). Any film beyond 400 has both serious grain and color problems, and a lot of 200 films aren't very good either. (Kodak's professional 400 speed print film - not the consumer version - isn't bad if you're willing to pay the price, but it's the only one I'd risk.) Kodachrome 200 is pretty good; while it doesn't have quite the stability or fine grain of K-25 or K-64 it is far better than any of the print or E-6 films from ASA 100 on up.
My comments on filters would apply to other slide film or print film as well, but the particular filters used would vary because of the color balance of the film. Kodachrome will do better without filters than the others, but that's not saying much - none will be outstanding. Jr. has a Sure Shot that I bought for him when he was nine (he's fifteen now); it doesn't have any filtering capability, but it's a decent little point-and-shoot that he used for prints until I bought an FTb for him earlier this year. Next I convert him to Kodachrome...
Anyway, sorry for rambling on... hope the info is useful. Looking forward to seeing your pics!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What are you doing to these FTbs to get them working properly with modern PX-625 replacement cells? Or do you have a big stash of old mercury cells in the fridge to feed them?
-Robert King
That's my biggest problem. Right now I have three FTbs plus a Gossen meter that takes two PX-625 cells and only four good batteries :-) There are several sources on the web for them; I'm trying to decide which one to use (the European sources are by far the cheapest, but will I run afoul of Customs?) Production of the cells in Europe has now been discontinued (within the last couple of months) so I'm going to stash twenty or so in the freezer and figure that by the time they expire the problem will (a) be solved, or (b) will be for my heirs to worry about, not me. They're $8.00 each from the cheapest US supplier, though. The alkaline replacement isn't an acceptable choice, and the silver adapter is too bulky for the Gossen (and marginal for the Canons). And don't get me started on Wein air cells - I've heard enough about them, none of it good, to last me a lifetime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The true photographers here will scoff at this post. Too bad. If I had to pay $8 for a roll of film, I'd never take pictures at all.
Most of the film I've been using lately is 36-exposure Konica Centuria 400, sold at B&H Photo (at 34th and 9th) and Adorama (on 18th between 5th and 6th) for a mere $2. (I'm finishing up a few rolls of Agfa HDC, which was also $2 at Adorama but has been discontinued.)
For processing (here's where the photographers will really scoff), I use Snapfish. You mail your film (in a prepaid mailer) to West Virginia; a week or two later, your photos are scanned and placed online and prints and negatives are mailed out. Scans are poor-quality but prints are about equivalent to what you'd get at any send-out lab (Qualex or the like). Total price, including shipping, is $3.98 per roll -- of 24 or 36 exposures, with 3x5 or 4x6 prints. (Until March, the price was $1.69 including shipping.) Of course, there's always a risk that the prints or, worse, the film will be lost in the mail, but after about 20 or 25 rolls, that's yet to happen to me.
Of course, there's always a risk that the prints or, worse, the film will be lost in the mail, but after about 20 or 25 rolls, that's yet to happen to me.
Getting lost in the mail is not the worst that could happen. A couple of years ago, we brought a roll of film from my stepson's class trip to the film dropoff counter at the local Edward's (now Stop and Shop) supermarket. When the order came back, the pictures weren't of the restored sailing ships at Mystic Seaport ... they were of a wake and funeral, of all things, including a couple shots of the, uh, guest of honor.
The store gave us our money back, of course, but didn't suceed in tracking down the correct pictures. The episode was sort of funny from our perspective, but it's fairly evident that the family of the dead person did not see the humor in the situation when their pictures were lost.
Whoops!
Of course, that sort of problem is always a possibility. If anything, I expect it to be less common with Snapfish than at supermarkets. Snapfish sends its customers name labels to put on their rolls of film, reducing the likelihood of the film getting lost before processing. After processing the envelopes are labeled with order numbers, again reducing the likelihood of error. And should an error happen before the envelopes are labeled, Snapfish would get one email from you, "This is a funeral! Where are my sailing ships?" and another email from someone else, "These are sailing ships! Where's my funeral?" Surely they could put two and two together and arrange for you two to swap photos. Supermarkets can't do that because, except for the one-hour counter, everything goes out to a massive Qualex (Kodak) plant (most use Qualex -- the only exceptions I know of are Wal-Mart, which uses Fuji, and Wegmans, which offers in-house processing for a slightly higher price than Qualex send-out).
Incidentally, most of the process at Snapfish is automated. A number of my rolls have been posted online with everything upside down. Yes, there's an easy way to fix that, but it means that all the scanning was done without human input.
The processor lost a roll of my super 8 movie film years ago during the December holiday rush. My description of "kids opening presents" didn't help at all, but "ConRail diesel engines pulling a freight train" got me my film back.
I'd have to agree that the Canon FD system is certainly one of the best choices for transit photography. The Canon FD stuff is generally very good quality, readily available and reasonably priced, so for a subway/transit photographer starting out it is definately worth looking into.
I was actually looking at an FTb in a local camera store (untill a PCC went by on Church St. and I quickly nipped out to take a picture of it) the other day but the price was about $60 too high for the condition it's in and the staff weren't able to answer my questions concerning what to do about about the problems arising from using modern (silver oxide, alkaline) batteries with its meter that was designed to use mercury cells. I was also looking at the various versions of the Canon F1 that they had as well, but again the prices were on the high side and most of the F1s suffer from the same battery connundrum.
At the moment I own two cameras; my favourite one of the two is the Canon EF, which is like a cross between an FTb and an early F1. It's a lovely camera - it's known as the Black Beauty for good reason - with a (surprisingly good for 1973) shutter priority and full manual operation. Shutter speeds run from 30s to 1/100s and, for whatever reason, Canon incorporated a voltage regulation circuit into the design which enables you to use modern silver oxide or alkaline cells to power the meter without problem. I recommend the EF above the other early FD cameras because of the voltage regulator.
I also own a Canon A-1 which was the top of the line A series camera from the late 1970s. It is very feature laden and because it was the top of the line camera from its series, it usually commends a higher price than the other members of the A series in the used equipment sections of camera stores. I wouldn't really recommend it because it has so many features, most of which aren't needed for transit photography, and because those features which most transit photographers won't use add to the figure on the price tag. Other less advanced models in the A series like the very common, and hence inexpensive, AE-1 or AE-1 Program are quite sufficient for transit photography. My first 'real' camera was actually an AE-1 Program. I used it up untill recently for the bulk of my transit photography, but then it got traded towards the purchase of the EF which I personally like much more. I'd recommend either the AE-1 or AE-1P and, because they are later cameras, they can use alkaline or silver oxide cells without any problems at all like the earlier Canon FD cameras.
In terms of lenses, I'd have to agree on sticking with Canon lenses.
However, I'd personally recommend against getting a 28mm or shorter lens because they begin to bend straight lines. 35mm is definately sufficient for wide angle use in transit photography. But be careful - one version of the Canon FD 35mm lens has a yellow element which introduces a warm colour shift to colour negative or colour slide films. On the other hand, that lens supposed to be excellent for black and white photography. I'd recommend the older Canon FD 35mm 1:3.5 S. C. lens because none of them had the yellow glass so you don't run the risk of accidentally buying one that's best suited only for black and white photography.
A 50mm lens is a definate must; 50mm lenses are widely regarded as being standard lenses. A Canon 50mm 1:1.4, either new or old style FD mount with the SSC coating is the best choice. The 50mm 1:2 or 1:1.8 lenses aren't as good - the SSC coating is really worth the extra money. The 50mm 1:1.2 lens is a fabulous lens, especially when shooting the artwork, tiles etc. on the walls inside subway stations. You don't need much depth of field for that and the 50 1:1.2 is great for shooting stuff like that indoors without having to resort to using a tripod or outrageously fast film. This lens does, unfortunately, carry a hefty price tag when you can find one. But belive me, it is worth it if you do much of that.
Longer lenses: I have the 70-150mm 1:4.5. It's not very expensive, and they are quite common to find but I don't particularly like it for a number of reasons. The full 150mm is a little short in terms of obtaining the telephoto compression effect. Also, the lens doesn't have a good coating (assuming it is a coated lens, which I suspect it may not be) so the contrast in the images it produces isn't as good as I'd like it to be. I personally don't think that this lens produces images that are truly sharp either, but given the price it's quite reasonable to start out with it. The 100-300 is a much better lens all round, but they can be expensive or difficult to find; I'm hoping to get one soon (i.e., next week).
Some general film tips:
1. Use the slowest film speed you can get away with. The grain and overall sharpness will be much finer and your pictures will look much better if you use the slowest film you can under the shooting conditions you find yourself in. Having 400 and 800 speed film in your camera is nowhere near as essential as Kodak's latest TV ads claim.
2. Don't buy film on sale. Film generally gets put on sale because the store wants to get rid of it for a reason. On Sale film generally is nearing its expiration date and/or has encountered some adverse storage conditions. Using film bought on sale is pot luck at best; you might have good results and you might have substandard results.
3. If shooting slide film, use Kodachrome if possible. It is better than E6 all round and is the most archival. E6 films don't have much staying power by comparison and they can - and very often do - fade over time. Kodachrome 200 is good for winter, telephoto lenses and low light conditions like those found in late evening or early morning. Kodachrome 64 is good for general shooting, and Kodachrome 25 (if you can find it - it has now been discontinued) is good for fan trips with properly organised photo stops on sunny days.
4. If shooting E6 slide film, use Fuji. Kodak's E6 film is total crap.
Hopefully this has been helpful for anybody thinking of getting into transit photography.
-Robert King
A few questions on old/new destination signs on subway cars:
1) The R-142 has a digitalized sign reading similar to the R-46 except not in the same colors. Could anyone tell me what color the signs are on the R-142 and also if anyone has a list of the readings that can be posted on these cars please let me know by email or post them here.
2) The R-46 didn't always have the digital signs. Can anyone tell me what the format of the signs were like in the 70s. All I know is that the route name {A, AA, etc} was in the middle. More info?
Any answers would be appreciated.
>>>>>>The R-46 didn't always have the digital signs. Can anyone tell me what the format of the signs were like in the 70s. All I know is that the route name {A, AA, etc} was in the middle. More info?
Old exterior side sign used on r40/42/44/46 equipment
The interior was a strip map that showed all the stops, and connections. I could not find a pic of one on this website.
R-42s mated with R-10s !!!
That's so radical man !
Bill "Newkirk"
The 142 side sign is a greenish-yellow color. Last time I was on one (Dec'00) they were capable of being a 2, 5 or 6 to all of their usual terminals in the following varieties:
6 - Pelham Local or Pelham Express, Lexington Local
5 - Bronx Thru-express or Local, Lexington Express
2 - Bronx Local or Express, 7th Ave Express or Local
The 142 sign is actually the same color as the R-44/46 (lemon yellow), but it's just inverse-- yellow letters on a black background. This arrangement makes more sense, and new LCD signs generally use the dark background. It is more reminiscent of the old roll signs.
Now the 143 will have orange LED's on the exterior side signs. It will look similar, but just more reddish.
Mark you calendars for next Sat. & Sun. (June 23rd & 24th).
Shoreline at Branford, CT is rolling out a number of there cars that have reach 100 years old, e.g...
- 220 Was first a cable car across the Brooklyn bridge, at 109 she's in splended shape.
- 316 Is another New Yorker from 1895. Doing time on TARS (3rd Ave) and Union Railway in the Bronx. A father-son team has restored this car to spectacular condition. Come sit on the velvet seats & see how it was to ride on just four wheels.
Also out that day will be some cars that represent important events in the history of trolleys thru 1940, including 1227 our Brooklyn Elevated Gate Car from 1903 ... sorry, you'll have to wait for "Autumn in NY" join the museum and get some handle time (you can of course join the museum any time & start receiving our newsletter ... this month you'll get a laugh at my expense), but come one of those days for a great photo ops & a chance to ride one of these cars down memory lane. Some of you SubTalker friends would love to take you for a ride!
P.S. Pardon my shameless plug ....
Mr t__:^)
Just keep BMTMan away for 1227!!!
To plug some more Brooklyn cars 1001 will be out I hear too (PCC) >G<
1001 is one of the first 1936 air PCCs right?
Is it in good shape?
-Robert King
1001 was the FRIST PCC to be delivered to an operator. 1000, a Clark built was delivered later.
Mechanically she's in fine shape. There have been several folks working on different aspects of her operation. Cosmetically she needs a paint job (just peeling paint vs. structrical dammage), a few side windows replaced, & some seat re-upholstery, BUT those who love to go for a ride in her, we don't mind a bit.
Mr t__:^)
The last time she was out and we won't let him re-create the Malbone Street wreck on our S curve he had such a fit he went right through the back porch of the BU. Seriously, he did go thru one board, but didn't get hurt, thank goodness.
Mr t__:^)
The pictures David Cole just took of the CTA are really impressive. I was especially taken with those shots of the Green Line taken at Ashland and Clinton Streets as well as those at 35th Street on the southern portion of the route. They brought back a lot of memories from my trips to Chicago last January and August. After I'm done with my current book on the Chicago Ls, I hope to go back there again this summer. Again, great job Dave!
Eric D. Smith
I just read an interesting article in the Washington Post online about the MetroRail engineers and problems they've fixed recently. The article focused on one problem, which was Rohr cars where the brakes wouldn't release when passenger weight was heavy, and distributed unevenly front-to-back.
The article goes on to decribe the fix, which was a simple circuit board. It only cost around $13,000 to fix all the cars. It says the circuit board balances the weight automatically.
My question is: how can it do that? How can an electronic circuit balance weight with no additional mechanical equipment? I assume they meant that it compensated for the weight automatically, or something along those lines, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone that might have insight on the issue.
Here's a bit of advice, whenever the lay press (i.e. any general
circulation newspaper or news magazine) does an article on something
technical, DISREGARD EVERYTHING! It's like a game of telephone.
I'm sure someone at WMATA gave a verbose technical explanation of
the problem and its cure, and the reporter, who may not yet have
mastered some easy questions such as "how does the train steer?",
picked up on every tenth word and wrote a story, filling in the
gaps with whatever sounded plausible.
I don't know anyone down there to get the "real deal" from, but
of course you are right, a circuit board can't shift people around.
Either they are talking about the adjustable air dampers (if those
cars even have that), or the variable load circuit which adjusts
brake pressure depending on sensed load. Most likely there was a
design defect which was kluged around with this board.
I don't know anyone down there to get the "real deal" from, but
of course you are right, a circuit board can't shift people around.
Either they are talking about the adjustable air dampers (if those
cars even have that), or the variable load circuit which adjusts
brake pressure depending on sensed load. Most likely there was a design defect which was kluged around with this board.
Those are some of the possibilities I had in mind. How common are adjustable air dampers on subway/metro rolling stock? Also, what effect might that have on braking?
Air dampers? The R46 had them when first delivered. Looks like
the R142s do (?) But the only impact on braking might be if car
body bottoms out against the truck and somehow binds up part of
the brake rigging. Not likely. I'm sure someone will find out
the scoop eventually.
Hey guys, today is the last day of school and since I won't be back here until September, E-Mail me with any information or insults at Peritore4@earthlink.net. Gracias.
OK FRED ! School's out, make an excuse to head east and ride the D-Types. Sunday may be too late, but you have two more chances. If not I'll send BMTman out there and hold you upside down by your ankles so your pocket change falls out to buy a round trip ticket !
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk: I'm going to try like the dickens to make the August 26th trip, and I'll be wearing my new Sea Beach hat.
It looks like the the Queensbridge shuttle is no longer running. Does that mean southbound N/R trains are running on the express track again?
Q has been running normal all week to 21st Queensbridge. Weekend wil have the R through the connector.
All the signs on the slants are back to Queensbridge.
Yep.
Cool. So the N/R was shifted to the local track just to make room for the shuttle? Why couldn't the shuttle have terminated on the northbound express track at 34th to allow the N/R access to the southbound express track?
I don't know my train models like most of you do..What model is the M train on the heading picutre today at the top of the home page??
That is either the R40M or the R42.
As I like to check out webcams around the world I was viewing a few local traffic webcams along the FDR Drive. When I got to one at 135th and the Harlem River Drive I noticed a Metro North train on an overpass in the background. The camreloads automatically about every few minutes and there is frequent service so if you wait long enough you should see a train. The link for the cam is http://metrocommute.com/cgi-bin/metro/video/MANHATTAN/video2001.html
I just realized that the camera is sometimes pointed in the opposite direction where you won't see the overpass. If you see the river on the right & trees on the left that is NOT the right direction!!
Is it possible to scan my track maps of my second avenue subway line then send it to David P. and it go up on the Nycsubway.org site?
I want to know first if people would like to see my plan. I have been working on it for .... 5 years now. Its time to get it off the ground and have the public see it. Why not start here?
Is it possible to scan my track maps of my second avenue subway line then send it to David P. and it go up on the Nycsubway.org site?
I want to know first if people would like to see my plan. I have been working on it for .... 5 years now. Its time to get it off the ground and have the public see it. Why not start here?
Hi guys,
I'm traveling from LaGuardia to the WTC Marriott and need some directions via the subway please.
From my research it looks like the thing to do is catch a Q33 bus to the 74 St/Roosevelt station, then ride the E to the end-of-the-line World Trade Center station. From what I remember though the WTC station is quite a walk from the hotel entrance (with luggage) and there is a (Cortland street?) station much closer. Am I correct? If so which station am I thinking of and wahts the fastest way to get there? Thanks again in advance, you people are great!
I believe you are referring to the Cortlandt St. Station on the N/R Line. Change anywhere the E and R share a station.
=Rednoise
Looks like transferring from the E line to the N/R line or the 1/9 line to Cortlandt Street instead of staying on the E to the WTC will take the trip from 30 minutes to 45 minutes plus the transfer time. I guess I'll just take the 30 minute ride all the way on the E and hoof it to the hotel. Thanks for the help anyway.
Or you could transfer to the uptown B/C at 7th Ave, ride one stop & get the free transfer to the 1/9 local.
I think this transfering depends more on how much luggage you have then any thing else.
Personally I would take the Q33 to #7 for the view coming into Manhattan & put up with the walk to 1/9 at Times Square (there is a escalatur from the #7 at Times Sq.).
BTW, there is also a M60 from LaGuardia to Manhattan (across 125th then turns South to 116th & Broadway for the 1/9 from there). Try that if you're not in a hurry ... maybe you'll get to wave to Bill Clinton ?
Mr t__:^)
I've found that the M60 to Manhattan, with a tranfer to the 2/3, 4/5, or A/D can be SLOWER than the Q33 to Roosevelt. There are three possible bottlenecks, with any or all happening at anytime:
Long wait at the Marine Air Terminal, both for traffic and schedule adjustment
Long, slow drive over the Triboro Bridge
Horrible traffic going crosstown on 125th Street.
As to which has the highest probablilty of the faster ride, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
You could take the M60 to 125th Street and St. Nicholas Avenue and take the A to Chambers, among other ways of traveling. Depending on when you arrive, you may be better off with a cab.
He could also take the M60 to the N at Astoria Blvd, I'm guessing he does not wish to make too many transfers with luggage, this is the best way to do it.
Very true. The transit options at LGA are pretty pitiful. It may just be better to wait for a subway ride until after you get to the WTC Marriot.
The Q-33 goes from LGA right to Jackson Hts. Then go downstairs to the subway and take the E train to its last stop at the WTC. Get a Metrocard and it's one fare. Better, get an all day pass at any newsstand in LGA and it's one fare until 3:00 AM.
The Q-33 goes from LGA right to Jackson Hts. Then go downstairs to the subway and take the E train to its last stop at the WTC. Get a Metrocard and it's one fare. Better, get an all day pass at any newsstand in LGA and it's one fare until 3:00 AM.
You might be thinking of the ChambersSt./WTC station on the A/C. The E has its own platform and is not a longer walk than the Cortlandt St. station. Be on the front car of the E and you will be very close to the WTC entrance.
Transfering from the E won't save you much time. (The walk from the E is only about a block shorter than that from the N/R).
More importantly, since you are concerned about dragging your luggage around, when you arrive at WTC on the E, you are on the WTC concourse level. You can go straight to the hotel without climbing or descending a single staircase.
CG
If Arrive at WTC on the downtown R from astoria (or N), you are also on the WTC concourse level, no stairs.
Here is the official announcement of this event next weekend
at the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum:
On June 23 and 24, the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum
will present "A Pageant of the Trolley Era". Cars that are
one hundred or more years old will be in the spotlight. Three
times each day, one of these ancient cars will lead a parade
of trolley, elevated and interurban cars representing each decade
of the trolley era from the 1890s through the 1940s. This will be
an excellent opportunity to view rarely-seen equipment and to
exercise your 35mm, digital camera, large format, movie camera or
camcorder with both static and run-by photo-ops.
For more information, call the museum at (203) 467-6927 or visit
the web site at www.bera.org.
------
P.S.
I'll also be happy to answer any questions in this forum as well.
The first set of four R-21s arrived on the NYCT Fitchburg branch this afternoon. Cars #7090, 7092, 7110 & 7111 (all GE) are visually beautiful. Main Line testing will begin tonight. I'd advise those who plan on owning a set - to get theirs very soon. First field modification will be to replace the original couplers. More to follow.
What exactly are you talking about?
I believe that Steve's model R-21's have safely arrived on his property and are being prepared for testing.
Have Fun and enjoy!!
Gonzo
Cool! I'll bring the mini cans of Testor's spray paint! (wouldn't be period authentic without some tagging ya know). :)
Model stuff isn't really my bag, I prefer 12 inches to the foot,
but I'm dying to know: do the little cab doors hinge backwards?
I've yet to be inside one. I'll let you know when the people are installed
*INSTALLED* ?!?! So much for that great "customer service" we hear so much about. I've got some O gauge stuffed geese ... want som? :)
What are they stuffed with?
Fois gras of course ... you were expecting maybe Sabrett's? "Installing passengers" may be historically accurate for the IRT but it was much older cars on the lines at the time. Very labor intensive.
Seriously, how are they? The advance pictures I saw had the trucks kinda out of scale with the floors too high ... did they deal with that?
The cars are beautiful - much closer to scale than its R-42 predecessors. They are listed as 13 1/2" long. I have not measured them to see if that's over the anticlimbers or over the couplers but that works out to 54'. Not quite scale but tollerable. In any event, even to my eye, they loog great on the rails. The protosound 2 is easier to use than the original and has a lot of nice features - especially speed control. The decoration is first-rate too, right down to the green stripe under the # board. Unfortunately there are only 7 different station announcements, 241 St - Flatbush Ave. As for the trucks being being out of scale, I think old-time O-gaugers who grew up in the Lionel era have learned to accept slightly out-of-scale as the norm in favor of premium operation.
Dude:
Check out the MTH 2001 Volume 3 catalog. The next set of subway cars, after the "Premier Line" R-32s are released, will be a four car set of R-17s (Model #30-2211) painted in 1970's silver and blue, and marked as a #5 train.
No word yet as far as the availability of two-car add-ons for any of the later models (R-21, R-32, or R-17).
The next model after The R-17 will most likely be an R-33 or R36 in World's Fair livery. Apparently, despite Mike Wolf's desire to build an R-9, too much new tooling was involved, so it was put on the back burner in favor of rolling stock that could be easily created from existing or slightly modified molds.
Makes me wonder what the next Premiere line subway offering (if any) will be.
My html skills suck...I hope this link works:
click here
It would seem that Mr. Wolfe is determined to have me expand my meager 4-track subway yard. Either that or scrap my class I RR in favor of an expanded subway system. Decisions - decisions - decisions. In any event - I see the price is going up so I better start saving now.
That's why Ross Custom Switches and Curtis Hi-Rail make those great four- and eight-track yard switches. Yeah, I know. They're expensive.
I'm getting fat, anyway, so maybe I'll eat less and spend more money on toy trains.
I'm getting fat, anyway, so maybe I'll eat less and spend more money on toy trains.
I tried that line with my wife a while back... she agreed wholeheartedly with the first part and responded something like "not in a million years" (only it wasn't quite that nice... I've sanitized it a bit) to the second :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My Subway yard is comprised of 1 Ross 4-track yard switch. I used 3 tortise switch motors to drive it and control the signals for the yard too. I actually lucked out and found it on E-bay for about $100.
I'm working on my Class I RR and intend to use only RO$$ $witches.
If I'm not mistaken, You can keep expanding the yard by using the "Standard" Ross 11-degree switches. I think the 8-track yard switch shown in their catalog (and on their website) is nothing more than the 4-way with four 11-degree switches tacked on. Then all you need are the special transition curves to make the outside tracks parallel with the inner ones (or bend them yourself with Gargraves).
You sound like one happy camper then ... and the "automated announcements" work apparently and your SAYING SO is only going to incite more 142 whining now. I hope you're pleased with yourself. Heh.
Yeah, was just curious as to what you thought of them ... I'm an N gauger myself - allows me to have somewhat of a railroad on my desktop since I don't believe in loops ... too "second city." :)
N gauge eh? I was collecting N gauge for over 20 years. I sold it all after I got my first MTH Subway set. My Concor NYC Passenger stuff brought a good buck on E-Bay but I still am amazed what the Kaydee cars brought. One New Haven boxcar brought over $86.00 The 100+ cars brought roughly $45 per car - and I paid between $5 and $12 each.
In my case, it's mostly New York Central Alco diesels (RS3, PA1) and about 30 boxcars. But what I actually RUN most of the time is a Concor set of three RDC's and four 4 car consists of Kato 10-363 JR subway cars. It was about all I could find around these parts. Nothing at all remotely NYCTA, never could find much of anything.
Years ago when the software business was doing a bit better than lately, those were the prizes for bringing in projects ahead of schedule and under budget. Now we're lucky if we get to play a game of solitare. :)
But yeah, mundo expensive hobby ... have to remind the wife and wigs that it's STILL cheaper than drugs. Heh.
THE ONE WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS........
Ummm ... ok ... :)
I just wasted a whole afternoon hunting down this train with my friend. I don't believe what I did. I waited for a half hour at Columbus Circle waiting for my friend to get off the D train (he lives in the Bronx), then we got on a R38 A train to Mott. It was a slow ride, slow as hell, but then I saw the sacred red sign "Test track begins here" and my eyes were as open as a stoned person with 3 joints. I was looking, looking and looking down the track for it, no signs! I really cursed out the train and everyone looked at me. Whatever, so we were both hungry so we took it to the last stop and went to McDonalds. Took a R44 A train back, then there was the sacred red sign "Test track begins here". My eyes were peeled again, looking looking, 500 feet test track ends and then there was the yellow bumper of death, NO R143. I announced to my friend that we were going to Bway Junction and he was cool with it. I got off, and walked to the L platform, there was about a 10 track yard that I saw from the manhattan-bound platform. They were all J and Z R42 and R40M, NO R143!!! Now I was REALLY pissed, where the hell could it have been today? :-\
I hunted for that R-143 a couple of weeks ago, and still could not find it. East New York Yard? Not there. Canarsie Line? Nope. I guess the wathcword is - patience.
Try Pitkin maintenance Shop - that's where they are hanging out.
What time did you go? I've seen the R-143 leave the test track following the 3:4X PM southbound A arrival (at Broad Channel) on two consecutive days.
Anybody try 20 track in Pitkin barn? Seen it come back into the yard at 3:30 pm yesterday. First time. Very nice. Sub talkers are right. What is up with those odd numbered operating cars. Trying to confuse us, HA HA. Like when they were testing the R142/142A, it dosen't go out everyday. When it does, it is usually from 9 am to 3-4 pm. Good luck!
BAH I asked my source if it would be in the Pitkin yard and he said no, alright, well where can I view the Pitkin Yard from?
It cannot be done. Pitkin Yard is a very isolated yard. Perhaps all you can do is watch the trains enter and leave the yard by looking sideways thru a fence on Pitkin Ave. Perhaps if you have a girlfriend living in the high rise building above the tracks on Linden Blvd., perhaps some apartments can view the roof of a train leaving the portal as it enters the yard.
At the ERA meeting yesterday, they showed a slide of it from last Sunday. It was on the uncovered track between the barn and the east apt. tower. This track ends right at the Linden Blvd gate. If the car is there, and you catch them opening the gate for a delivery, you can look right at it, head-on.
The entrance is on Sutter Ave. I have a friend that live in one of those apt buildings (Linclon Ave). You can see the trains from the Lincoln Ave side or the Linden Blvd side. But if you do have a friends or families that stay in those apts, then you can look down from their balcony.
A train to Grant Ave.
B12,13,14,15,20, Q7, and Q8 buses stop within walking distance of the yard.
OH MOSES, If you want to see R-143s you need to do like me, and sneak into pitkin yard, they are in one of the Barns, didnt get close enough though. BUt My group did have visual, upon returning to the Fulton Line to tunnel.
ya know, i have been searching for this pitkin yard and have never been successful. i would give my most honorable grattitude if someone can give me a location and address of this pitkin yard. isn't it also a scrap yard? i am trying to get scrap pics of the R-110A.
See my previous post KHI.
1434 Sutter Ave., intersection of Grant and Sutter. R110A is in decent shape on 44tk. It is not locked up so therefore it smells like cats and birds.
I saw it at Coney Yard today not sure if their storing it there or not
NY1 News announces that the electronic signs to be installed in stations to tell people waiting on the platform when the next train is coming will not be installed for another 4 years. Every station will not see these news signs until 2008.
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=14178
I live in the Washington DC area and our Metro already has these signs at all the stations. They say when the next train will be and how many cars it is. They just don't always work, though.
And we had about a 4 year delay, too.
I found this link over at The International Movie Database (us.imdb.com)
It talks all about the making of the movie.
http://home.att.net/~tgsound/incident.html
Wowsers ... well, that explains why the poles flexed in the film (the real ones wouldn't) ... THANKS for the link ... they did a VERY good job of replicating a real WF LoV car and the detail work was simply stunning. Like I said, the movie chewed dead donkey lungs on the D train, but the train scenes themselves kept me watching. :)
A man arrested in a traffic stop on Broad Street in Philadelphia has the 9 mm service weapon the murdered WMATA officer had when he was killed. This man is considered to bea prime suspect in the shooting. He has been charged for his retaliation when the police stopped him but not his involvement in the shooting, if any, as of yet.
What time does the Nostalgia Train leave Columbus Circle Station?
I have some guests meeting me for the excursion, and lateness on my part will not be good. Is it 8am? Please let me know, those of you who will be going.
10 AM but be there early. I was told by TM to be there at 9:30 to pick up my tickets.
A BIG THANKS TO YOU! You may have saved my skin, or my life, either way you look at it. Thanks again.
Question, they want us to pick up tickets on the middle platform? Or by a candy stand, there are two, one on the downtown and one on the uptown, they did not specify which, or if on the platform, please tell me!
"Question, they want us to pick up tickets on the middle platform? Or by a candy stand, there are two, one on the downtown and one on the uptown, they did not specify which, or if on the platform, please tell me!"
The center unused platform (59th St 8th Ave sub) will have Nostalgia Special patrons as a boarding point.
Last year, reserved tickets were sold on a mezzanine one flight up from the platform. This meazzanine was about the center of the station. The Transit Museum says pick pay for your tickets by 9:30AM. The Special will not wait for stragglers ! Once the train stops at the platform, show your tickets when boarding. We can't tie up the "road".
Bill "Newkirk"
Pick up tickets by 9:30???
BTW, are you going?
WMATAGMOAGH,
Yes I'll be there, barring an earthquake, wildcat strike or getting married the last minute !
The "Special" is due to arrive at 10:00AM, so give some time to buy your ticket and descend to platform level and wait amomgst the railfans. That wht the Transit Museum tells you to be purchase your ticket by 9:30AM. Tickets are not sold on the train.
Hold onto your ticket all day, you'll need it to re-enter at Rockaway Park, providing you leave the system to buy lunch, etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
I asked this before but is anyone else going?
If you already said yes, don't reply.
See you all tomorrow.
How much is the ticket?
At about 2:15PM there was an A/C power failure North and South of Hunts Point Ave station stopping the No.6 Line service in the Bronx for about 1HR. Basicly the signals went dark and the stop arms went up. There where 3 trains stuck between stations in the tunnel. A Downtown No.6 out of Parkchester between Witlock and Hunts Point. Me the Uptown local stuck between Longwood and Hunts Point and My farther operating the Pelham Express stuck North of Longwood Ave. After being stuck between stations for 25 minutes I made it into Hunts Point Ave and discharged my train. Then after that the T.S.S told me and my T/O to secure the train and help discharge the Express when it comes in. Then after discharging the Pelham train my train proceeded light and went in service at Witlock Ave. Then the power to the signals came back on but then 149 GC lost A/C Power stopping the No.2,4,5 service around 3PM.
Rolling blackouts it sounds like ... welcome to the Hotel California from what it appears to be ...
I was listening to the 6 line problem on the radio and I have one word "FUNNY". Transmission between Control and T/O's was unbelievable. Im glad that you was ok and none of your passengers got hurt.
At a recent stop in at the Transit Museum I picked up a flyer and here is what it said:
D TYPES TO THE DOCK
On Sunday, August 26, 2001, a special excursion train consisting of the famous BMT Triplex cars will be operated on an unusual excursion over portions of the BMT Division of New York City Transit. After an in depth tour of the Nassau Street lines (including some soon to be abandoned areas, as well as a trip to Metropolitan Avenue, our special train will proceed out to Brooklyn to a very special place. After tow diesel locomotives re added to the consist, we will be offering the rare opportunity to ride down to the area known as 38th Street Dock, home of the century old South Brooklyn Railway. It has been 25 years since the last passengers were carried over freight only trackage which meanders across and into streets of the Bush Terminal area. Plan to join us as Subdivision C, Department of Subways, New York City Transit supports a worthy charity, as this special trip is being operated to benefit the March of Dimes.
The special train will leave the Chambers Street Station of the J line at 10:30 AM on Sunday August 26,2001. Chambers Street Station is reachable by J line serve as well as taking the #4, 5 or 6 trains to the Brooklyn Bridge Station and following the signs to the J line platforms. The trip is scheduled to conclude back at the Chambers Street Station. NYCT reserves the right to make changes to the itinerary as needed in the event of unusual circumstances.
Tickets are available in person at: Westchester Yard Master Tower, Room 221 (718-319-5519) or at 38th Street Yard-Car Control/Work Train Control Unit (718-243-4935).
Tickets are available by mail from: NYCT Subdivision C – M.O.D. Trip
1311 Waters Place, Room 221
Bronx, NY 10461
Make all checks and money orders payable to: March of Dimes. Day of trip tickets will be $5.00 extra.
Please send me the following tickets:
Adult _____tickets @ $35.00 each _____
Children (up to age 14) ______tickets @ $20.00 each_____
Name __________________________________ Phone ______________________
Address ____________________________________________________________
PLEASE INCLUDE A STAMPED, SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE
Will the SoB units provide HEP to the Triplex, or will they be towed with no power?
I really have no idea. Whatever will happen will be an experience in itself.
If anyone does know, please post.
From the Train mag Newswire of Jun 14. (Makes all you guys participating in that other Vermonter discussion look kind of silly).
Vermonter remains sidelined during New England Central trackwork
Amtrak is still awaiting word from regional railroad New England Central on when it can resume Vermonter service north of Springfield, Mass. Service has been indefinitely suspended while NECR conducts track maintenance that will eliminate defects and slow orders on its line between Palmer, Mass., and St. Albans, Vt. Amtrak spokeswoman Karen Dunn said the railroad is eager to restore service, and says there is no truth to rumors that the temporary annulment of the Vermonter is a prelude to dropping the route permanently. NECR has not returned repeated phone calls seeking comment on the situation. The Vermonter has been suspended north of Springfield since May 31, ater a track inspection revealed defects that prompted slow orders that would have delayed the trains by 2.5 hours.
I'm sure Jersey Mike will tell us where he got his info from - the UTU was a bit miffed over what Amtrak had told their own employees, warning that they might discontinue the train entirely. Only snippet I could find that even MENTIONS this angle is here:
http://tv3.wcax.com/cgi-bin/tdtwais-gw.cgi?action=getsingledoc&sfile=/arch/2001JUN/2001-06-07.07.50.htm&qry=amtrak+vermonter
(WCAX is the CBS affiliate in Burlington)
As a background though, the Vermonter does NOT have the ridership of the Ethan Allen and another Amtrak run, so there have in the past been discussions of killing thie particular run for what it's worth. It did appear to be a credible story therefore ... but like everyone else, would be curious as to the original source since it's not like Jersey Mike to invent things ...
Well ... it appears that CBS is redirecting the link directly to the results, therefore I will do something I've never had to do before, reprint without permission what is at the end of the link CBS won't serve up ... you'd have to reproduce a multiple number of steps with just the right search terms so SCREW CBS ... here's what the link went to:
Search Results For "amtrak vermonter"
AMTRAK_VO
Later today the New England Central Railroad hopes to complete repairs on the line used by AMTRAK'S 'VERMONTER'.
AMTRAK suspended the passenger train through Vermont--after problems were detected by a test car last Thursday. People
are now being bussed to Springfield, Massachustts. 21 people who work along the route were also told they could lose their
jobs if the suspension is prolonged. AMTRAK will run a test car along the route beginning today. They should know by the
weekend if service can resume Monday.
AS I said I got it from ERN and they did label it as unconfirmed, but they cited their inside sources at Amtrak and the announcement made to the employees. It also seemed pretty logical with the 200 defects being the straw that broke the Vermonter's back so to say.
As I've observed many times, you're not a typical rumormonger. I heard the same thing down at the local watering hole from the UTU guys. And word out of Philly is that they ARE looking for an excuse to kill that train as it bleeds money. Looks like we all got snookered. I sure don't blame YOU though. :)
When I ride the VTer it is usually quite full. It serves two majour College campuses (UMASS/Amhearst and Dartmouth) and a good deal of the VT ski areas.
Good question. Only know what I read, but at that wcax site and a few other places I went digging for meat on this, I found this editorial:
http://www.caledonianrecord.com/old_archive/2000/01-31-00/ed2.html
There's an all out assault on Amtrak out there which I suppose is fine. On our own little ditty with that commuter rail line that got snuffed, good old Congresscritter Sweeney is now looking to spend $6.8 billion now to do to the Oliver Northway what was done to the L.I.E. with more lanes for more SUV's ... so clearly there wasn't enough pork in a piddly little choochoo when interstate expansion is oh so much cheaper. Geez ...
<>
Let's see now, ridership per route according to Rail Travel News #631
Jan 2001 was:
Ethan Allen: 3,458
Vermonter: 5,299
Adirondack: 6,251
Maple Leaf: 14,732 (not 403b)
Divide by train miles to get PMTM may smooth over the numbers, but no way is the Vermonter a poor performer. Amtrak drives a hard bargain with states now adays when it comes to 403b. The Vermonter costs that state about $1.2 million a year. A 403b charge includes not only operating subsidy, but an equipment lease, which is a fixed charge. In the early 1990's, when the Pennsylvanian ran NYP-PGH, the train actually made an operating profit that went to Amtrak's bank account, and contributed to overhead, but PennDOT was charged $300,000 nonetheless for equipment, as Amtrak regarded the train as "off-system".
That would figure ... shared about the only information I could find. When I see anything that interests me, ESPECIALLY having been a television reporter and prime time TV anchor in a past life, I *know* what life is like with the slackers who live off a mobile unit. How it's show up, grab something off the table at the back (press releases are great, but agenda and photo op sheets are good enough for many) and they split, never bothering to take in the story or ask questions based on a little bit of boning up BEFORE "the shoot" ... in reality, it's hard enough to get them to sit in the room before or after for the photog to grab "reaction shots" as they nod their head and perform other gestures "in the room" so it looks like they were actually THERE. :)
If you took a look at the editorial I pointed at a few messages back, the paper in question made the Vermonter look like the ULTIMATE boondoggle. And what LITTLE I heard was from Amtrak bretheren at a local watering hole who WORK the Vermonter and what Jersey Mike posted is what THEY got told. Even from "first hand" accounts, this story is mighty scrooched and that in turn leaves PLENTY of room for spinmeisters of all ilk ... but if I was on deadline, I wouldn't have believed the line superintendent EITHER. Ayup, used to be a PAID skeptic myself ... but this story is quite curious in how it twists and turns like the Taconic Parkway. :)
There's also talk of NYS DOT yanking the Empire Corridor if Amtrak fumbles the ball there. As it is now, NYS taxpayers will be footing the ENTIRE bill for the Rensselaer moves, the rebuilds of the Turboliners and other various and sundry (assuming there ever IS a budget) because Amtrak cannot pay its part of the obligations. This story is going to get curioser and curiouser, which of course only feeds the rumor mill some more down the tracks. Never a dull moment at the Ministry of Truth, eh? :)
A little more aside from a television news standpoint for your edification and amusement ... people who do "television news" usually come from a "theater" background ... all SUCCESSFUL TV reporters were theater majors in school (journalism types tend to end up in print and eventually get a PR gig writing press releases for the theater majors to put on air - how ironic but then again, people who study political science never end up as politicians) and TV reporters (and most radio types as well) are SHOW PEOPLE ... they are imbued with "how to tell a story" even if you have to make it up, using real "victims" as little more than grist for spinning a yarn that has nothing to do with their own situation that you've come to report on.
News Directors on the other hand largely still come from the journalism side but have come to realize what the word "ratings" means and thus, it bleeds, it leads ... the standards of the industry used to be "three credible witnesses who will go on camera" but that has descended to a choice of:
1) Someone else published it, therefore it's credible. (Enquirer or Star is sufficient so long as it's on newsstands now)
2) You have a piece of paper signed by some wig and you publish ONLY what's on the paper (attribution)
3) You gather essentially the same story from three sources who provide a means for a news director/editor to read their information online ...
4) Sweeps week - one source is good enough as long as they're sober.
5) You wrap the story around, "anonymous sources tell us" ... blah. That instantly SHOULD make the story suspect based on the writing, but the audience fails to understand what those words actually mean. :)
But yeah, I'd take Mike's original piece, merge it with "earwitness accounts in a bar" that I heard from people that work the line, and then add in the local comments on the line being a boondoggle, add a dash of political agenda (I think bush is a MORON and he proves it ANY time the "tally lights" wink at him) and there you go - my editor would put it on the air. Heh.
Remember all this next time you pick up a newspaper or watch FOXMSNBC news ... these things don't just happen on subtalk - they get passed off by the Ministry of Truth EVERY day ...
2)
I don't know how others feel here, but I've learned a lesson as the last piece I want to share on this, having laid out the WEIRD direction I'm coming from on the issue of "PROFF" as has been laid out by many upset by bad information that has occurred here every now and then on Subtalk.
1) People are FALLABLE ... and so are the TA employees who have the memos in hand.
2) All of us come here wanting to contribute something and if we've got a juicy morsel, we want to tell our friends here what we think we know. Many do it because they hear something and want to hear someone ELSE say, "yep, it's real."
3) Many come here devoid of ego, just wanting to know some things about all this that they didn't know before or to hear old farts like me gas off about how the railroad USED to be (makes for great comparisons of how things stand today - for many THESE are "the good old days") ... we come here for FUN and some of us forget that.
4) People who come here and post what later turns out to be incredibly wrong, or perhaps insensitive to issues they came here to learn about but still don't KNOW any better really deserve a break rather than attacks. Many really don't know what a BS detector is or how to work one. :)
Resolved folks, after this story (which AIN'T over yet), instead of going on the attack when bad information or "spun data" occurs would prefer to make subtalk the shrine it is by nicely saying, "Here's the facts *I* found" and instead of calling others idiots or conspirators (aside from our elected/anointed of EITHER side of the aisle when called for - PUBLIC figures EARN ridicule, comes with the territory - ask any RTNDA member) why don't we just post the alternate reality and we can all debate it back and forth. Sure beats arguing over the colors on a MAP and we can all learn something.
All I'm saying is that the purveying of facts is a risky business for the PROFESSIONALS you call "urinalists" ... they're mere mortals and get fooled more often than any news director or editor will admit to. To expect that standard from ordinary folks is insane. The "pros" don't adhere to your expectations, and they're PAID to be experts.
Some of us have been way too harsh on others here ... instead of casting shadows, perhaps casting some light on the realities such as "here are the numbers - believe what you want but here's reality" and call it settled right there. Folks are entitled to their memories and fantasies, so long as they don't stain their seatmate. :)
Church has ended, go thee now in peace. Rajneesh. :)
Amtrak gets fully scored funding after Oct 1, so things ought to lousen up by then, and the bond issue will eventually pass.
I'm still waiting for those F40's (that don't fit thru Jamaica station canopies) to show up at LIRR's door stop any day now. (hah).
WOuldn't you just LOVE to see an SD-90 tear through Jamaica? (literally?)
This evening while I was heading home @ 59 St I got on board a R32 on the "A" & the consist was like this north car lead I was on 3414-15, 3786-87, 3610-11, 3448-49 & R38 4062-63 south car. From time-to-time sometimes you see R32/38 operating on the same train together on the "A". Since when they been doing this?
When 207 yd. steals the C gap at 168 during the day to make PM service. All they have to do is add two cars. Happens more than you think.
So we know that the following car classes can get along well:
R26 and R29
R32 and R38
R33 and R36
R40M and R42
Any others? I know in the 1970's they would scrap together consists of anything they could scrap together, but that was out of desperation. I'm talking about cars that are truly compatible. Is there a particular reason why some cars are compatible and some are not?
:-) Andrew
R68 and R68A
From the early 60's thru to the end of anything older than R 26 mixed trains were a way of life on all IRT routes save the 7 and on the 6 it was limited to R17's mixed with R26 and up. Why Pelham was excepted I don't know.
All clases R10-42 are/were mechanically compatible..can be coupled iron, air, and electrically no problems but mostly [IMO] due to different dynamic braking characteristics the mixes made for lousy handling trains. Of course imagine an R16 coupled to an R32...acceleration differences, etc affect the feel of a train. Say what they will about 2.5 MPHPS being standard they sure didn't feel the same.
I'll keep out of the R62 and up scene likewise the various rebuilds as to why some are incompatible with others. The R44 was an entirely different animal next to the 42's and then the R46 although similar to the 44 had differences [electrical] that left the two only semi-compatible. OK...the R44 didn't have the electric trainline charging circuit; brake pipe air came from the head end; on a R46 the brake pipe would charge from each car electrically [controlled from the head end].
In a typical IRT mixed train back then you'd have all types from R12 thru R33, maybe mainline R36 mixed...with 3 different types of dynamic brake. Generally the newer the car the longer the dynamic held out before fading; so the squeal of brake shoes would come at different times for different cars and you'd have push-pulling thru the train. Oldest type: R12,l4,l5; next: R17,21,22; newest type R26,28,29,33,36
>>>I know in the 1970's they would scrap together consists of anything they could scrap together, but that was out of desperation.
Does this explain the picture I saw a few days ago of an R-42 coupled to an R-16?
Dan
If you're referring to the picture that was posted day before yesterday, those were R-TEN's! I didn't think it could be done without extreme unnatural acts. :)
Whoops. Being that I was born after the R-10s were retired, I wouldn't know. It does seem that that sort of mating would require at least one car to want it very badly.
Dan
What amazes and amuses me is that I never thought the door controls (air) would get along with the 42's not to mention so many other mechanical "Bronx handshakes" ... those 42's must have been DESPERATE for a date. TRULY "mystical." :)
It very well might.
However, something needs to be clarified. When air-conditioned cars started being put into service in the late 1960s, NYCT(A) wanted to spread the wealth around. To do so, it mixed consists so that as many trains as possible had at least a (married) pair of air-conditioned cars. Of course, the following orders (R-44 and R-46) were 75 feet long and could only run with themselves.
David
Two years ago, summer of 1999 when the Willy B bridge closed for construction, the N ran with R40M, R42 and R32 mixed on the same 10 car train...that was wild...
SeaBeach53
Express on the Astoria (Queens), Broadway (Manhattan), and 4th ave (Brooklyn) lines. In fact, there is only stretch where anyone has a chance at superceding a W, and that is between 42nd and 57st Manhattan. The 5's express service in the Bronx is only during the height of the rush, the Ws is #6 and 7 style. Also, when this happens, the only express tracks in Queens that won't be used in regular service are the Hillside ave ones.
I'm pretty sure that off-peak W service (middays and early evenings) is supposed to terminate at 57/7, going to Astoria only for rush hours, and PAcific St on weekends.
That and the Sixth Avenue Shuttle will terminate at 2nd Avenue.
I saw the work programs and it says that the 21st Street shuttle terminates at Bway Lafayette and not Second Ave. Second Ave. will be needed for the V in November and the TA will not send that shuttle to Second Ave. for just 3 1/2 months! That shuttle will terminate on B3 track and the Grand St. shuttle will have exclusive use of B4 track. Ride the railfan window on a Q train and check the switching arrangement from B3 to B4 north of Bway Lafayette and you will see how it will be done.
The shuttle is running only till 63rd Street opens. The shuttle will be local. If it were to use B3 to reverse, it must switch north of West 4th Street to be on that track. In the past, the shuttle has run to 2nd Avenue even when the posters and brochures say Broadway-Lafayette.
My bad! I forgot that the 21st St. shuttle would not be needed once the F goes via 63rd Street permanently. Nevertheless, the employee work programs clearly state that the shuttle in question arrives and leaves from Bway-Lafayette and not Second Ave. Here is how it works. At 14th St., on B1 track, motorman punches for a B3 track lineup. Arrives at W.4th on B3 track. Proceeds to Bway-Lafayette and terminates on B3 track. Motorman changes ends. Leaves northbound from B3 track on signals. Approximately 600' north of Bway-Lafayette, crosses from B3 to B4, arriving at W.4th on B4. Crosses to B2 upon leaving W.4th........ Grand St. shuttle has exclusive use of B4 track from Bway Lafayette station to Grand St, station. 21st St. shuttle service would have to be held back (hopefully during the midnite hours or rerouted to Second Ave.) whenever an equipment swap of the Grand St. shuttle equipment may be necessary...... If I'm not mistaken the brochures, now availiable at stations concerning the MannyB swap also state that the 21st St. shuttle terminates at Bway-Lafayette and not Second Ave. Sorry, left mine at work in my locker!
Since I'm working it, I guarantee that the 6th Ave Shuttle terminates at B'way/Lafayette.
They are currently replacing the crossover switch at 2nd Ave.
So yes, the shuttles will have to terminate at Bway/Lafayette.
Only in the later evenings Monday-Friday the 'W' terminates at 57/7. I'll be working W301 on the new pick, makes a 1228 out of Ditmars the first trip, last trip a 2003 out of Stillwell, arriving at Ditmars at 2111. Some of the later intervals out of Stillwell terminate at 57/7, before the midnight shuttle service starts.
Sorta like what 21 Street-Queensbridge was to the B Line before.
I never really looked where the W terminated at the north end. By the time I picked, all that was left daily on the W was really early or really late at Astoria (on the AMs - family schedule doesn't let me work PMs).I am doing the W on weekends, though - 5 trips from Stillwell to Pacific.
Here is why VIA Is better than amtrak.
1. they have preserved equipment (i.e. Old dome cars, turboliners)
2. Never heard them have a derailment since january 2001.
3. THERE JUST BETTER!
It is usually considered good form to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about. Obviously that's a lesson you flunked back in kindergarten.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Say why not change your handle to Anoing_mouse.
Say why not change your handle to Anoing_mouse.
because he's not a noing.
Say why not change your handle to Anoing_mouse.
Because then people will confuse him with you.
even though they have nice preserved good looking rolling stock, they are behind in the times in technology, there for amtrak would cream VIA in the tech and style of rolling stock. even though they hardly derailed, amtrak hasn't had a derailment either or if they did it wasn't as serious as usual.
What about the Amtrak derailment or the Califorina zepher?
What about the Amtrak derailment or the Califorina zepher?
What about the VIA derailment this spring, where the train split a switch and crashed through a hardware store?
Derailments aren't usually the fault of the passenger carrier, they're the fault of the railroad over whose tracks the passenger trains are running. In none of the cases cited - Amtrak or VIA - was the passenger carrier at fault. (In VIA's case it was kids about your age tampering with the switch.)
Oh - and it's California Zephyr, not Califorina zepher.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Part of the aftermath from this accident was that CN went and changed the locks on the switches so that they are harder to tamper with, reducing the likelyhood of an accident like that happening again.
-Robert King
Hey Anon_e_mouse do you want some D con?
One other note: IM A TEEN NOT A KID IM SMARTER THAN YOU!
True, you are a teenager, not a kid... my apologies to any goats who might be reading this :-)
However, I'll challenge your other assertion. You, like a number of others on this board, have a habit of sounding off without checking your facts or being able to support your arguments (in those cases where folks are discussing the merits of different alternatives). As a consequence, the good and valid things that you might have to say get lost in the static that surrounds your half-baked, unsubstantiated remarks. Learning when to speak and when to remain silent is a lesson that no one learns overnight (despite my oversimplification of it earlier in this thread) but it's one of the most important lessons you will ever learn - and it's a lesson we must all remain cognizant of throughout our lives. We have two ears and only one mouth for a reason :-) I'll offer you the same advice that I've offered to my children and that I will offer to my grandchildren when they're old enough to comprehend: THINK. If you can back up a statement with logical argument and facts, then go ahead and present it. The worst that can happen is that someone will point out a nonsequitur and you'll learn from it; the flip side is that someone will say "why didn't I think of that before" and the discussion will proceed to the next level.
Now do you understand my point?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I understand you.
REDBIRD # 9 0 5 6 ! !
I saw the mighty Redbird on the Mall near 12th St covered with a blue tarp. The ends where the ropes are tied together showed a peak of anti-climber a couple of headlight and marker lights too.
I assume the unvieling will take place for that cultural thing later this month. I forgot the days, can anyone repost them ?
I was the only one photographing this veteran of the Lexington and 7th Ave subways. Nobody batted an eyelash ! I shot it with the Washington Monument in the background and changed positions and photographed it with the Capitol also in the backgroung. The car is not sitting on any trucks but rather on the grass. A rather wide wooden ramp was built and painted gray. The anti-climber looked dirty, but the Redbird paint looked too clean, maybe repainted !
She sits on the Mall at the Smithsonian station of the Orange and Blue lines of Metro. Sorry, the film is still in the camera and don't have a slide scanner to post them. This car will never see service because everything under the chassis was stripped and I heard tonight the interior was stripped too, possibly the seating ?
Well.....I thought I would past the word to SubTalk.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw car #9056s mate #9057 at the 207th Street yard today from a No. 1 train.
BMTJeff
"I saw car #9056s mate #9057 at the 207th Street yard today from a No. 1 train."
Looks like they're divorced !!
Bill "Newkirk"
At least car No. 9056/9057 are divorced for the time being. Will they be remated.
BMTJeff
It's not a divorce, it's a widowing. 9057 is in mourning, as her mate is dead.
"At least car No. 9056/9057 are divorced for the time being. Will they be remated."
They should be remated...........a few miles off the shore of Delaware in a place called Davy Jones Locker !
Everything underneath #9056 has been stripped, removed ! When the exhibit is finished, the TA won't spend one penny to restore everything. I don't think #9056 is coming back to NYC.
If you got some bucks to spend, hop an Amtrak train from Penn to DC on a roundtrip excursion fare. You can do it in one day, visit #9056 on the Mall. Bring Qtraindash7 along with you, maybe he can critique DCs Metrobuses !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess that car Nos. 9056/9057 will be remated in Davy Jones' locker off the Delaware coast or will at least be near one another in Davy Jones' Locker.
BMTJeff
She would look more complete if the interior was left intact, but what the heck do they know?
That's two less R-33s that you have to worry about. Still it's hard to believe these were pulled from service. Slowly but surely, the Birds are shrinking.....
-Stef
"That's two less R-33s that you have to worry about. Still it's hard to believe these were pulled from service. Slowly but surely, the Birds are shrinking"
Now comes the fun part, since #9056 will attain celebrity status, at least in our circles, how about checking our slide collections and see if we shot it in service !
Bill "Newkirk"
There are no pictures of 9056 here unfortunately.
-Stef
Bill, after you posted this, I went to see the Redbird myself this afternoon. It was near the 12th Street entrance of the Smithsonian Metro station. It was indeed covered by a blue tarp.
It looked lonely.
Chaohwa
Putting it into human terms, you would too once your mate of 39 years died!
Well, it's official. There are now posters at stations advertising the new Manhattan Bridge service changes. They even have the big W and the two Q's! According to the posters, it starts July 22 and lasts until 2004.
- Lyle Goldman
"They even have the big W and the two Q's! According to the posters, it starts July 22 and lasts until 2004. "
The riders on the Brighton Line are gonna like this..........TWO Q'S !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hip Hip Hurray! I can finally say "good riddance" to the depressing, hot and steamy "E" line and enjoy the fresh air and night-time cool-down on the "M" line.
Saw one at 34th St/6th Ave going southbound. I thought this service was canned years ago during the budget cuts. How does this work ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe to keep Stillwell Avenue from getting congested, a number of F trains are terminated at Kings Highway and sent directly to the Avenue X yard.
No, that's the way it's been run for as long as I can remember. Only the peak express service on the Culver line was eliminated in 1987. The AM rush trains terminating at Kings Highway go directly to the Ave. X yard. During the PM rush, these trains run light up the express tracks and go into service at Jay St. Until the Bergen St. fire destroyed the interlocking, these trains ran all the way up the express tracks, even through the lower Bergen St. level.
Used to be at the end of the PM rush they would go directly to Ave. X. Is this still the case?
Not sure, but I'd assume so.
During the PM rush, most southbound KH trains turn back towards Queens upon arrival at Kings Hwy.
The last few trains go to Av.X.
The same is true in the AM, Right?
The first few from KH are pull outs from ave X and the rest are trains from Queens turning. Correct?
AFAIK, there are no "normal unscheduled" culver express runs in the PM, it all runs local.
Peak express service on the Culver Line was eliminated in 1975 (a casualty of the fiscal crisis), not 1987.
David
I was referring to the Kings Highway/18th Ave peak express service, not the service you mention.
Why run trains light?
That is, why not allow passengers to ride nonstop from KH to Jay if they're heading in that direction anyway?
Why run trains light?
That is, why not allow passengers to ride nonstop from KH to Jay if they're heading in that direction anyway?
----------------------------------------------
Light trains are subject to the towers orders. Sometimes they may have to go in service later then planned or might have to be turned for service if a problem arises.or like what happened to me once i was running light to w4st and a train in front of me went into emergency. Instead of going in service at west 4 st we had to run light to 145 st and come back southbound in service.
These trains don't run non-stop. They are carefully "slotted" between in service F trains at the express/local junction north of Bergen St. These trains tend to pile up behind one underneath Bergen St., as do M trains coming in from the CI just outside Bay Parkway. Taking the local is probably faster.
Most trains that terminate at Kings Hwy. lay up to Ave. X Yard, most trains that begin their trips at Kings Hwy. come out of the yard. However, there are a few southbound trains in both the AM & PM rush that turn there for another northbound trip.
IN the morning, about every other train terminates at Kings Highway, it is laid up in the middle track, after a while it goes back up to uptown service. Going to ave X to get into CI yard is not too frequent of an occurance, during the evening rush, trains terminate at Kings Hiway as well, these trains DO run light until Jay St. Sometimes trains will go to CI yard. This occurs daily, I can confirm, I ride the F every day
Spotted this duo in simulation mode tonight. It looks as if this is the next set to enter service.
Anyone notice something unusual? The latest car deliveries are the ones seeing service before the cars already here? Haven't they worked out all of the bugs?
-Stef
last saturday, i saw a new set beeing pulled into E. 180th st. couldn't make out the numbers. i assumed its one of the new sets mentioned
No that was 6601-05. I was working the 5 last Saturday and saw the set on my last trip up to Dyre.
The latest car deliveries are the ones seeing service before the cars already here?
Perhaps the ones now being delivered have had the ECs done at the plant, while those already here haven't been retrofitted yet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about they have A R142 train in red wrap left on the train so that we railfans can remember the faithful Redbirds.
On the R-142 and R-142As, the red stripe on the outer cars and the red at the ends are the tribute to the "redbirds."
David
The TA Now has stainless (Grafittiless?) steel cars
Yes, NYCT has stainless steel cars. The R-142s and R-142As (which are some of those selfsame stainless steel cars) have red accents along the sides at the #1 end of the first and fifth cars of each five-car units, and more red accents on the end caps of these cars.
David
of course! where have you been? its been that way since 1984 when the R-62/62A came in. followed by the R-68/68A, remade redbirds, remade brightliners, r-40's/slants/r-42/r-38/r44/46/,R-110A (may it rest in peace),R-110B(whats going on with that one?)and finally the R-142/142A and the not yet to hit service R-143. of course all these cars are hit with graffitti or schratching of surfaces but are cleaned or glass repaired.
is that so? i thought they were there to guide the wheelchair accessable to the handicap section on the train. i thought the red bloches on the front of the motor cab was the legacy symbol.
KHI is correct. The accents along the sides of the first and fifth cars of the five-car units (at the #1 end) denote the wheelchair position. Their being red (as opposed to another color or not being there at all) is a tribute to the Redbirds, as are the "blotches" on the end caps.
David
They should also put the red stripe on the sides of the remaining 3 "B" cars of the 5 car set.
BMTJeff
Then write to "them" and suggest it.
David
"They should also put the red stripe on the sides of the remaining 3 "B" cars of the 5 car set"
I don't think the TA is interested in changing the R-142s look to satisfy some railfans. They have their hands full getting these trains to run trouble free so the entire fleet can be delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is quite understandable that the T/A isn't nterested in placing red stripes on the "B" units of the R-142/R-142A subway cars in the meantime since they have their hands full try to get those cars to run as trouble free as possible. However once they get those cars running trouble free then they should consider place a red stripe in each of the "B" units.
BMTJeff
The red stripe is there on the A cars to indicate the position of a wheelchair space.
Peace,
ANDEE
For your information, not all cars referred to as redbirds were actually redbirds from the begining. Only:
232 ..... R-29s
500 ..... R-33s
34 ....... R-36s
were purchased with the "Tartar" Red paint. It seems to me that a photo or two would help you remember the old 'faithful' redbirds better than one train wrapped in red. Or perhaps you could purchase a set of the MTH redbirds and put them on a shelf. Keep in mind that more people will be happier to see them go than will have fond memories of them.
"were purchased with the "Tartar" Red paint"
Sorry to correct you, I think you mean TARTAN. Tartar is something associated to some railfans who don't brush their teeth !
BTW - Nobody answered my post about R-142 #6316. Saw a hand written note taped to the inside of the cab by the conductors panel stating:
TEST TRAIN - FRICTION BRAKES
Know what this is all about ?
Bill "Newkirk"
"Sorry to correct you, I think you mean TARTAN. Tartar is something associated to some railfans who don't brush their teeth !"
I would have thought the same thing - about Tartan vs Tartar. The "TARTAN" reference was made 3 times in the book "Passenger Car Data - 1947 - 1976" on page #52.
Now if you check the 9th edition of the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, they list both Tartan and Tartar.
Tartan is described as a Scottish plain textile design of varying widths and colors.
Tartar, on the other hand is described as a sedimentary deposit on wine casks with a "pale or dark reddish crust"
So as you can see - the TA 'may' have some shortcomings but the guys in the New Car engineering dept. do know their colors.
Interesting, Steve... I didn't know that either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I would have thought the same thing - about Tartan vs Tartar. The "TARTAN" reference was made 3 times in the book "Passenger Car Data - 1947 - 1976" on page #52."
I read in another publication somewhere about "tartan" red R-29's. I guess the first one to coin the description must have been Scottish.
Once again, you rock Mr.Dude !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey TD: A fellow C/R was telling me that he had a passenger who actually told him that she prefer the Redbirds over the R142. She said the only thing that the R142 got over the Redbirds was the automated annoucements.
Too bad she's not the head of the Dpt. of Subways. Then perhaps her comment wouldn't just be more ramblings of a random commuter.
You betcha! Bring back the Steinways and Gibbs! :)
Did you not see the ugly red splotches on the front of the car? That is the tribute!
What I ment is make 1 train of red R142's
as i think about it, that is a hot idea! but then again, the R-142 would look too colorful and weird
Can someone tell me the best (most accurate) NYC subway map online? I've noticed that several are not accurate in their placement of stations wrt each other. For example, the MTA online map has the 2 Cortlandt Street stations appearing blocks apart yet they are in reality a few yards apart at ground level. I've noticed the track maps at this site are pretty close but I can't find one complete track map - there are several broken into parts. Thanks again guys, you're great!
None are perfect, but I'd venture to say that the ones on this site are the most accurate online. (I'm no expert, mind you.) Our intrepid cartographer, Peter Dougherty, will be releasing a new version of his book soon that will contain the most up-to-date information, but for obvious financial reasons won't be posting the maps here (at least not for a long time). Still, the ones which he has allowed Dave to post make a very good reference.
Suggestion: spend the bucks for Peter's book when the new edition comes out - it's easy to carry and contains a wealth of additional information about the signals and some other aspects of the system that isn't on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Absolutely. When I first read Peter's book, I expected "God" to be under the author section. The book is the best if you're interested in subways. I had been waiting for trackmaps since 1991!
If you want a completely to-scale map your best choice is:
http://www.cmap.nypirg.org/scripts/esrimap.dll?Name=Straphangers&Cmd=Map
Then there's also:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway/
but the main map is a schematic; the map that's to-scale is
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway/ScaleSubwayMap.GIF
but that one covers such a wide area that manhattan looks like it's one giant transfer station.
Hi, does anybody know the headways for the "W" service that starts soon? And, are there enough riders right from Ditmars and Astoria Blvd. to require peak direction express service?? The line seems short up there, and I could forsee a lot of merging problems with the "N" trains at Queensboro (even though the "N" trains run so erratically). As an aside, I pretty much feel that supplemental Hillside Express service is needed more!! Tony
Probably the same as today's B Train. When they all meet in Manhattan, they'll probably be running at today's 30 TPH give or take a few.
That Astoria express service is going to bomb. The busiest stations on the line are Ditmars, 30th Ave., and Broadway. By running the 'W' up (or down) the middle track, an uproar is sure to ensue. Add this to the merging at Queensboro Plaza in the morning, and we are sure to have a big mess. I brought this up to the dispatcher at Ditmars when I finished work on Friday, but unfortunately it looks like we're going to have to grin and bear it. I picked the 'W' on the new pick so I'll keep you posted on how this works out.
My guess is that they're running the W to Astoria less to provide extra Astoria service than to avoid slotting problems at 57th Street terminal.
If that's the case, they may be running the W express in Queens more to move the equipment and possibly save a trainset than to provide the service.
It does seem logical that the W is going to Astoria only to prevent back-ups at 57th Street. In the late 1980s, when a similar service pattern was in effect (north Man. Bridge tracks closed), the "B" had 2 separate services- one from 168/Washington Heights to 34th/6th Avenue, and another from Brooklyn that had almost the exact pattern the W will have, including Astoria service (don't know if there was express service in Queens, though). In 1988, this was ended when the Chrystie St. connection was re-opened. Since then, only the N has served Astoria, and only as a local. Other than renaming the southern "B" service as "W", this seems the same.
I wonder how many people forgot that in 1985?-88 service to Grand Street was a shuttle, jsut liek they're gonna do now? While it's unfortunate for the people who go from Grand Street to Brooklyn, fixing the bridge isn't optional, and it's been done before without the worled ending. I jsut wonder if at any point there will be full IND and BMT service on the bridge?
It certainly will bomb. There will not be even spacing between trains at Ditmars & Queensboro Plaza. With every other train from Ditmars going down the middle I'm sure that there will be a decrease in total trains per hour serving the Astoria local stations during the rush vs. the way it is now. In the morning, the N will arrive at the Plaza jammed and the W virtually empty since it only made 2 stops. Even spacing at the Plaza? Only if an N leaves Ditmars on track 1 at the same moment a W leaves Ditmars on track 2! Now you may have congestion arriving at Ditmars! I'm sure it looks good on paper, but we all know the TA runs a paper railroad! Prediction: after a couple of weeks of the residents flooding Peter Vallone's office with complaints, the TA will be forced to run the W down the local and tell supervison at Stillwell to add 2 minutes to the running time!
There will not be even spacing between trains at Ditmars & Queensboro Plaza.
Nor should there be. This should be treated as a 3-way merge between the N, R and W. Assuming that each of these services will be running at 10 tph, the combined services will be running at 30 tph through the 60th St tunnel. It means that N and W trains should leave 0, 2, 6, 8, 12, 14, ... intervals. The R will fill in the gaps at 4, 10, ...
As someone who lives near the 30 ave station, it won't matter to me which train comes first. I can walk a couple of blocks back. I can imagine a W will rarely bypass an N when going from QBP to Astoria Blvd. Seeing how there were more B tph vs. the N during the mid 80's flip, I am assuming that there will be more W's than N's. I think there will be some people who normally use the 30 ave station to migrate to Astoria Blvd to catch the express (like me).
But I do think that the peak express won't last long.
=)
I agree with Paul, the point of the W express is to shorten the round trip time to save a trainset or two. I don't think they will completely remove the express service. They'll either leave it the way it is and ignore complaints, or reverse it (express to Ditmars AMs, from Ditmars PMs).
Anyway, most riders at the local stations should not complain because they will have the same or nearly the same level of service they currently enjoy. Plus, people at the two express stops would take the W, leaving Ns less crowded south of Astoria Blvd.
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June 16, 2001
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School's almost out. I started the panel for the R143 subway car. I finished the control panel. I finished with the acceleration curves. Now, I'm up to the point where I need some help from you guys. For a typical train, or R143 if possible, does anyone know,
The maximum brake reservoir pressure
The pressure of the maximum normal brake and
The pressure of the emergency brake
Any help is appreciated. After I record some sounds from that sucker, I'll have the R143 ready.
-Ed
I got a copy of the brochure, and posted the English part here.
I tried for a compromise of size, file size and quality. It should be at least readable at 154K. (Aside--I just previwed this with IE 6.0 Beta. It scales down the JPEG to fit in the browser window (too small) but when I mouse over it, a little scaling window pops up to enable me to view it full size. I'm not sure if I like it or not.)
Yay! More stuff to update in my Bahn Layout now.
Thanks for posting it, Paul!
Three nitpicks:
Under the "Manhattan" section, it should say W Trains also stop at 49St-7th Ave. The uninitiated might think it stops only at this station.
It should add, Nights and weekends, reroutes will continue through the new 63rd Street Connector, affecting E, F, and R service. Watch for service notices on platforms and listen to conductors' announcements on trains.
It should also say, Effective later this year, the new 63rd Street Connector will open for regular service. Additional service changes will take effect at that time on 6th Avenue lines.
I think they want to give the riders one small dose at a time. Not all at once.
If we tell them about changes 4 months down the road, they'll just be confused now. Not to say that they won't be confused now anyhow.
Paul, thanks for posting it! Evidently, the Q will be a 24/7 express service (in Manhattan). I wonder if the truncated D will become local late nights. It looks as if the Brighton line train (formerly, D, now Q) will remain as the only 24/7 express service.
In keeping with the TA's practice of running two local services on each Manhattan trunk line overnight to provide ten-minute headways, shouldn't the Q run local? The R and W will be shuttles (right?), leaving only one local (N).
On CPW, the A and D should trade overnight roles -- the A should be express and the D local.
(If that's done, the overnight D will be identical to the rush hour B modulo 205th Street.)
Currently, only the N serves Manhattan at late night hours.
Isn't a silly idea to stop B and D at the Heralds Square and having so many shuttles with the name S? I think that we should reintroduce the double letter system to avoid the confusion of the lines. I will open a new thread to talk about that.
Also MTA should extent either D or D to at least to Broadway-Lafayette (Personally, I want a B to Lafayette). As the result, the S from 21 St or the V in the future should also stop at 2 Avenue.
The South Jersey Light Rail bridge intended to go OVER Rancocas Creek will be installed in one day in the second week of July, according to the contractor as published in Saturday's Courier-Post.
Photos taken Friday June 15
Great photos! Oddly enough, until yesterday I had never heard of the Rancocas Creek or the bridge over it. Yesterday, I was reading a book by Stan Fischler, "Next Stop- Grand Central". Section III discusses rail disasters. It seems that one of the earlier bridges over the Rancocas Creek was a drawbridge and on April 23, 1853, a Camden & Amboy engineer missed a stop signal and took his train for a dip as the bridge was open.
Just as an aside, some of the details of other Rail Disasters described in the book are chilling.
"on April 23, 1853, a Camden & Amboy engineer missed a stop signal and took his train for a dip as the bridge was open."
I wonder if this is some sort of bad omen or something.
Bill "Newkirk"
"on April 23, 1853, a Camden & Amboy engineer missed a stop signal and took his train for a dip as the bridge was open." Train Dude
I wonder if this is some sort of bad omen or something. "Newkirk"
It certainly appears that way. Two accidents at the same location in just 148 years!
Yesterday I returned from D.C on the Acela express and when passing the Delaware car Co. I noticed parked on a track close to the NEC ROW what seemed to be two Amfleet coaches. One car had a cab on the front but wasn't a Metroliner MU.
I assume it was an SPV-2000. The car looked gutted to the shell. Anyone know about this? Last year I spotted a slew of mothballed SPV-2000s at Croton North along with some dead FL-9s.
Delaware Car Co. for those who don't know is north of the Wilmington,DE. NEC train station. I saw two NJT Bombardier push-pull coches on a siding south of the station. Perhaps dropped off for D.C.C. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Those were Budd Company SPV shells manufactured in the early 1980's when Budd was so cocky that their SPV's would sell like hotcakes they thought it would be smart to have "stock shells". DCC bought them when Budd liquidated. I don't think they have any future, bit it certainlt never saw service and was never in anything but in a stripped state.
Do you think that the SPV-2000 was the final nail in the coffin for Budd ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I think that's the place I saw a retired PATH car shell last October... I've posted about the car before, but no one had any information... no number is visible on the unit, which is behind a chain link fence on the opposite side of the building from the tracks. Here's a link to a photo of the car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would have so many changes it would be hard to start. But there are subway lines that I would create, and some that need to go for good.
I have only several changes but here it goes
well what I would do it have the following:
(C)From Bedford Park Boulevard to Lefters Boulevard (Rush Hours)
From 145 Street to Lefters Boulevard (All other Times)
(B) From 168 Manhattan to Coney Island (All Times)
(E) 179 Street- Hillside Avenue or Jamica Center to World Trade Center (All Times)
(F) 179 Street to Coney Island via 53 Street Tunnel
(G) Smith- 9th Street to 179 Street (Local In Queens)
(Q) Ditmars Avenue to Coney Island via Brighton Express/ Broadway Express
(V) Contiental Avenue to 2nd Avenue via 63 Street Tunnel
(W) No W service
(Z) Discontinued
(9) Van Courtlandt Park to New Lots Avenue (Local in Bronx - Brooklyn)
there is even more but I dont want to get into details. What about you, what plans you got?
Hey what is wrong with the 'Z'? Its a good compliment to the 'J' in the AM and PM rush
The last thing in the world New Lots needs is another train trying to get there during the Am rush.
(G) Smith- 9th Street to 179 Street (Local In Queens)
If we're assuming that there exist enough cars to populate all lines, run the G train to Church in Brooklyn and reintroduce peak direction express on the F, running it as the <F> or perhaps extending the V to Kings Hwy peak direction only as the Culver Express.
Dan
Run the Sea Beach express throughout Manhattan, terminate it at 42nd Street, and send some other train to Astoria, and get my train back on the Manny B. But, then again, you already knew that, didn't you?
I would institute peak-direction express service on the #4 line in the Bronx. The diamond 4 just skips 138 St. Big deal.
Also, I would have peak-direction express service in Brooklyn on the F
with the G serving as the local.
Lastly, I would start rush-hour skip-stop service on the L line.
And what about the 6 running express all the way to Pelham Bay, and the local runnung local to P.B.
Skip-Stop on the 'L' is something I've always wanted too lol
One of the following, preferably the 1st one:
1) C to Rockaway Park all times except nights, no more Rockaway shuttle, and A runs regular. Nights, Rockaway Shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts and another from Broad Channel to Rockaway Park, A to Far Rockaway only
2) C to Lefferts Blvd all times, EVEN nights. Nights it only runs Euclid to Lefferts Blvd but it is labelled "C" not "S." no Rockaway shuttle, A alternates from Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park all times.
You do realize that you've just cut service at a lot of stations, yes?
Express service is great, but if more people a line are served better by local service only, then all trains should run local.
Am I nuts or does the whole Queens Plaza & Queenboro Plaza situation bother you too? They're close enough to make an above ground/ below ground transfer (like the one at 74th St-Roosevelt). At present there are only 6 trains in Queens (not including Queensbridge service), and they could ALL connect in one location near to Manhattan.
At the very least there should be connection between the 7 and the E/F/G lines at 45th Road Courthouse Square and 23 St Ely Ave. The 7 runs right over the underground trains!! Am I nuts?
Very true. A connection like the Court Sq-Courthouse Sq-Ely Ave would settle G riders. You just have to put in moving walkways like they want. A nice connection like this is nice, when 63rd St is fully opened it would house all Queens' trains except for the F which would be dedicated to taking Eastern Queens riders to Manhattan directly.
Except the F -- and the N/R nearby and the A/S/J/L/M/Z far away. (They're in Queens too!)
First off:
Don't take offense to this, but.....
I'd have to hurt you.
Discontinuing the Z is a horrible idea. that's a long ride in queens, and the skip-stop service that the Z provides helps to shorten it. I don't see what you'd gain by killing it, as Z trains ARE J trains, and you would net a grand total of 0 extra trainsets by cancelling the Z.
No W service.
Perhaps you're missing the point of the W: it is a temporary service during the time that the Manhattan Bridge north side tracks are closed. if you take away the W, you turn the West End Line into an el that carries trains at 8 car trains at 8 minute headways for roughly 8 hours of the day. Plus that mentioned line (the lovable M line) doesn't really get much manhattan traffic.
When you say: "C (ALL other times)" and "B (All times), I really hope you don't mean nights too. Wasted resources would land you in the gutter, 2 hours after you became TA pres.
Don't run the E to 179th. there's no reason if you're gonna run the 3 locals on QP.
Why not extend the G and V trains to Church and let the F run express to them both?
The Q should not run to Ditmars. A better idea is to make the N a broadway express again (even if it has to switch from the local tracks at Canal. And I don't wanna hear anyone whine about 'switching delays', because the C and A trains do it twice.
9 to New Lots? As it is, I've seen: 3 to New Lots. 4 to New Lots. 5 to New Lots. 2 to New Lots. Let's try to stop running trains to New Lots. Before we know it, the whole IRT will terminate at New Lots in the South, even the 7 (don't know how, but New Lots is a magnet).
My plans? Well:
1. Instead of splitting a between Lefferts and Far rockaway, split it between Far Rock and Rock Pk. (Especially since you want to run the C to Lefferts, which is an excellent idea). present A runs from rockaway Pk. to 59th peak direction will now run from Lefferts.
2. D- express on Brighton Line, Q Local on brighton (since the Q is on Broadway, it should be local)
3. E- 1 out of 3 trains to Hoyt and schermerhorn, rush hours. (using the 5th center tracks bet. Lafayette and Clint Wash to turn around. It runs lite past Lafayette onto that track, then lite to Hoyt-Schermerhorn)
4. F- express from Church to Jay. V and G as locals.
5.- G to church
6.- JFK Express from an extended N line at Laguardia Airport, down a connection built from the Astoria line to the Queens Plaza line, then down the 63rd/6th av line to W4th st. switch to A line. express to Kennedy airport. NO extra charge. All stops on express tracks are made.
7.-N runs over Manny B, express to Ditmars.
8.- V to church via local.
That F express service would do help sooo much. Being able to skip some trains in the morning and get ahead would help.
Roy
near F train
This is just a suggestion. Return the #1 back the way it was. Certain sets terminating at 137th and the rest goin to 242. That skip stop save in excess four minutes if that. Secondly, Id terminate the B during non-rush hours at 161. My reason is that during non-rush hours the B terinates at 145 and that not a transfer for someone going to the Bronx. The C goes to 168 all the time and you can transfer to the #1. When there is a delay in A service they run the C express uptown so people can stiil transfer. It isn't fair when there is a delay in D service that the B at anytime doesn't help out.
5 trains would run 241st Street, White Plains Rd to New Lots. 2 trains would run Dyre Avenue to Flatbush. 2's on 7th Ave, 5 trains on Lex. 2's would also become the Bronx thru express.
Decrease 3 service and increase 2 train service.
Trains out of 205th would become the Brighton Express and trains out of 63rd would be the locals.
F trains service would run express in Brooklyn via the unused Prospect Park tunnel. G trains would run local to Church Avenue.
M service would run from Marcy Avenue to Brookly via the West End Line all times.
Reimpliment KK service. Some 6th Avenue trains would run over the Williamsburg Bridge.
During rush hours, mixed service on the Eastern Div. Some trains on the J line would run to Canarsie. Some trains out of Canarsie would run on the J.
Bronx Thru express service all day. Downtown AM hours, uptown PM hours. Same with the B and D in the Bronx.
I've got a lot more, but that's all I'll post for now. :)
I took many photos with my digital camera in the Subway for a while now. I finally put them up on this website called WEBSHOTS.COM My user name is tony3271. I think you can just type in the username and view my album. I have about 20 or so pictures online so far. I only put on what I think people will download. If you guys want to see something in particular or any requests let me know or just drop me an E-Mail and I will try and get it. NYant78@AOL.COM
you need a password
Peggy just got an e-mail and asked me to psot this:
WHo owns Grand Central. MTA or Metro North may run the trains but who actually owns the building.
Believe MTA owns the building.
Buff-
You may tell Peggy that according to a history of GCT brochure that I picked up there in April, MTA has "effective control" of the facility on the basis of a 110 year lease (from 1994) from owner American Premier Underwriters, Inc.
Bob
And APU is the remnants of the Penn Central. So technically speaking, it's still owned by the builder.
-Hank
"And APU is the remnants of the Penn Central. So technically speaking, it's still owned by the builder"
Not exactly. American Premier Underwriters is an insurance company based out of Cincinnati (it's actually a subsidiary of the American Financial Group which is better known for it's other insurance subsidiary, the Great American Insurance Company). APU purchased many of the assets of the Penn Central -- including Grand Central Terminal during Penn Central's liquidation.
So, technically you can own a piece of Grand Central (as well as some insurance businesses) if you buy a share of American Financial Groups stock (NYSE:AFG). It closed on Friday at $28.60 a share.
CG
Just got back from a few days in the land of the bean and the cod. Great transit city, and I was at a rail transit conference to boot! I did get some chances to do some railfanning, and maybe some folks more familiar with the "T" (Todd Glickman?) may know the answers to these:
(1) When will the new underground Green Line North Station open? And will the viaduct from Science Park to Lechmere remain, and if so where will the cars ascend to the viaduct? I did ride the Green Line around the North Station curves, and I'd like to do it one more time before the elevated is demolished.
(2) What exactly is the new Silver Line and when will it open? Is it diesel bus or trolley coach?
(3) Will the trolley coaches from Harvard remain for the forseeable future?
The Green Line will temporarily terminate at North Station, and the date for that is sometime in 2002. They will tthen build a subway under Causeway St. and connect it to the Lechmere viaduct, which could take a while.
The Silver Line will use dual-mode vehicle which can run on diesel or electric.
I know of no plans to do anything about the Harvard trolleybusses.
1.Don't know
2. the silverline will open in 2003 the full line will open in 2010
3.Don't know
Hi Andy!
I wish I knew you were here... it would have been good to see you again.
I'll refer you to a few MBTA Websites for detailed answers to your first two questions. As for the third, the MBTA has just ordered new trackless trolleys, so the TT service to/from Harvard Square will be around for the foreseeable future.
Here's the answer to the North Station project question. The MBTA says 2004 (though I wouldn't be surprised at all if it slips). The Green Line will proceed under the Fleet Center, turn to parallel Causeway Street, and emerge just south of the Charles River; it will cross the river on the exisiting viaduct.
Here's the story on the Silver Line. Two portions are being built, the but the key connecting portion is still just a plan. It may always be just a plan...
For more detail, there was a feature article in the "trade" publication "Mass Transit", Nov/Dec issue.
Silver line was intended to be BRT (Bus Rapid Transit), the new in word in the transit industry ... i.e. many operators/cities want to do something more then just a new bus route, but can't afford LRV. BRT is almost a LRV system.
Mr t__:^)
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YOR SO HURTFULL :(
Since you violated the response rule, consider yourself banned for life.
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
I will act good not bad
Sorry I was just bored because my favorite hobby is trains and not buses. Please have the rooms seperate it does us Alot better.
BTW you were all talking about buses. They stink and there common. Id like to see somthing uncommon like a train.
I will try to steer the conversation to trains next week.
Too bad you won't be there.
Well I got Q46 Nova RTS AND you DON't im going to start my chat room in yahoo.
I will be there Or you hand me over all of your Metro cards!
I had a few hours to kill today due to the fact my car was being worked on so I took a bus over to 241st Street, for the first time I saw two R-142's at Wakefield.I boarded car number 6585, it looked brand spanking new very clean inside.I noticed something, a little different, each car has a handle with a red tip, what is this handle for?
the reason for those tips is because that brand spanking new train set is the newest one to hit the 2 line. those strips are just shrink wrapping unless they modified the interior of this new set. i have to go ride that new set today.
I know of lot of you guys don't care much for Los Angeles and some of the people out here, but if I may be allowed to brag again, here goes. The Lakers won again. The Sixers put up a valiant fight but our club is outstanding and there will be more championships to come.
Hell we don;t have a football team, our two hockey teams suck, our two baseball teams are mediocre at best, and one basketball team is a chronic loser. So don't degrudge us our one true winner. I'll be thinking of all you Knicks and Sixer fans at the LA Laker victory parade Monday. Try to share some of my joy with me.
Hope you don't get hurt in the riot.
No chance. I will probably lead it.
How stupid does a person have to be to riot when one's team WINS? Much like Ry-trans-it I presume.
Luckily, there was no rioting in Denver when the Avalanche won the Stanley Cup a week ago.
>>> our two baseball teams are mediocre at best, <<<
Two baseball teams? The last time I checked we only had one in Los Angeles. Unlike certain Eastern cities, we do not count teams that play in an adjacent county (much less another state) as Los Angeles teams.
Until your post, I was happy to see the ridiculous off topic crap that went on at the end of the baseball season was not repeated for the basketball playoffs and championship,
But since it was brought up, I have one question as a very casual basketball fan. Is the poor sportsmanship exhibited by the Philadelphia fans in trying to distract the Laker free throw shooters common throughout the NBA, or something peculiar to Philly? Going back almost fifty years to my high school days, I remember the audience remaining quiet and still during free throws.
BTW Fred, there is a history of the Brooklyn Dodgers on KCET tomorrow afternoon at 2:30 P.M., and of course I hope you will be taking Metrolink (to get back to transit) into L.A. on Monday.
Tom
Old Tom: That waving at the free throw shooter is common at all basketball venues nowadays. They give out these streamers in Los Angeles to distract the opposition. I think it is all a crock. Most of the time it doesn't work. Thanks for the tip on the Brooklyn Dodgers. I will tune it this afternoon. I'm hoping they're showing it out here.
The Bucks deserved to win the whole thing. This is related to the topic because Milwaukee doesn't have a subway and they deserve to have one.
Milwaukee????? Ha, don't make me laugh. They are strictly a second tier town, too small to have a subway. Besides, the Bucks couldn't rebound or play defense worth a damn.
lakers ?? .................bbbbbooooorrrrrriiiiiiiinnnnnnnggggg!! ( boring ) !!! LOL !! glad this #$$%%##%^$% is over !!!
I would say "Damn you and the rest of you Laker sympatizers!!!" given that I and millions of NYers are still asking why our beloved Knickerbockers dropped dead before they had a chance to get started. But then again earlier this evening I had to escort a very lovely college lady just out here from the City of Lights around town, and show her due respect despite her obivous beaming at the LA victory (and the east's loss). So I'll hold my tounge.
you can have our "" laker riots "" !!
Sounds like that lady has a lot of class. Keep seeing here and some of it will rub off on you. The Knicks are history for the next decade. Pro basketball will be LA's preserve. Get used to it CCNY.
Thanks for the tip. And BTW, I still have hope, now that Checketts is gone (Good riddance to bad rubbish!)
Right! I heard about that guy. I also heard rumors that your Knicks are after our Phil Jackson to coach them. Dirty pool. Get your own coach, or steal him somewhere else. BTW, in baseball I'm a Mets fan and I loved that comeback victory over the Yankees last night.
Now I wish I'd stayed up to watch the eighth inning. I read that Piazza hit a humungous shot completely out of the stadium. It probably doesn't compare to Tommie Agee's upper deck rocket launch on April 10, 1969.
This is why the Yanks really need bullpen help (hopefully the Urbina trade will work out). I saw that blast, and how Torre ran into that situation by running out of pitchers.
Oh, I feel so sorry for those God-damn Yankees.
you can have our "" laker riots "" !!!
I wonder how Bob Murphy called it on radio. It was 30 years ago today that Ken Singleton, batting lefthanded, launched one almost all the way to Roosevelt Ave. It was a titanic blast which cleared the back fence in right.
I almost shut the damn TV off because it looked like a three game sweep for the hated Yankees, but a great rally in the 8th really got me pumped. The kicker is I left the room momentarily so I missed Piazz's shot and had to settle for the two replays of the blast. It is one of the few times I have had anything to cheer about this year as far as the Mets are concerned.
I wonder if Ralph Kiner said, "That one's gone, forget it, good bye", when the ball left Piazza's bat. I've heard Kiner say that several times over the years, most notably when Dave Kingman hit one over the back bullpen fence in left field in 1975.
I did some railfanning both before and after I went to the museum. I decided to ride the Long island Railroad into penn. Interesting enough, there were No signals between Rosedale and Jamaica! Talking to a Conductor and the Engineer of this train, they plan to copy Metro North in having no automatic block signals. Anyways that was interesting enough. Then I rode the A. 4049 R38 into brooklyn. So thats that. I leave the museum. I then board a northbound 4 Train to Brooklyn Bridge. Unfortunately i missed a Redbird! Arghhh! Then I wait, an R142A stops in the station and goes thru the loop. Anyways then I didn't have too much time to wait for another redbird so i hop on an R62A. Whats funny is that the Conductors and Dispatchers still say no passengers although my sources tell me the loop is now legal! So dispite that, i rode thru the loop. Never doubt the power of a Railfan window on a R62A! Anyways i saw City hall alot differently. Then i took 1791 uptown R62As as a 6 to 51st street. I saw another Redbird. As Homer simpson would say, D'ooh!! Then I go catch an E to JAMAICA CENTER. Hey thats my handle! LOL it was also good to catch a E on a saturday!
went to white-pot tunnel in Forest Park, he wassup with MTA droping all that dirt in the tunnel, quite short, a cool place to take LIRR pics, right next to the ROW.
Correct term is White Pot underjump.
What/where/when is "White Pot underjump?"
Where the Rockaway Beach line used to connect to the LIRR Main Line in Rego Park.
Where the Rockaway Beach line used to connect to the LIRR Main Line in Rego Park.
Has the "white pot" name ever been explained?
Whitepot was the original Native American name for Forest HIlls.
really? news to me, White pot is the name i aquired from around the street and people
I'm not sure that the lines actually connected there. From the ROW configuration, I suspect that the Rockaway line actually paralleled the 4 track ML until the merge with the Port Washington Branch.
the anandoned tracks seem to merge into the active ROW
Old track diagrams I have show that Train Dude is correct---the switches for the Rockaway line to get onto the main tracks were at WIN Interlocking, which is the point where the PW Branch veers east.
Did not know that, thanks for the underjump, did want to take a third rail fastener for a souvenier, picked it up, boy those things are heavy.
Are you talking about the bracket or the grey fiberglass insulator? If you really want a charge, take one that is in use.
Even better, stand there and piss on the third rail....making sure your feet are firmly planted ont he ground. Works even better on a rainy day.
haha ,the bracket, I know exactly what you're talking about, My friend's batter on his Maglite was low, so I offered him to re-charge it on some free MTA power.
What subway cars are available for the nostalgia runs?
"What subway cars are available for the nostalgia runs?"
The BMT D-Types (Triplex cars)
The B-Types are undergoing restoration and the R1-9s haven't been touched, except for one car.
The Low-vs only run on IRT Lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
None of the R1/9 cars rusting away at the CI yard are operational?
Hopefully someone will think to keep 10 Redbirds, 2 of each class, for charter use. We can't expect 75 year old Lo-V's and Triplexes to stay road-worthy forever, and then we'll have nothing.
The first train that used on the IRT in 1904 is that still available? Did it run in 1994?
Is the r17 avaiable , I saw a irt train on the Far Rockaway line last summer. I am not sure which car it was. I was about 1 block from the el when it pulled into the station.
"Is the r17 avaiable , I saw a irt train on the Far Rockaway line last summer. I am not sure which car it was. I was about 1 block from the el when it pulled into the station."
Can you describe exactly what you saw ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I was about a block from the subway so it was hard to tell. It was red with three doors per car. I saw it one more time from a distace at 116th st. It was sometime in july of last year about 1:30 in the afternoon.
The first train that used on the IRT in 1904 is that still available? Did it run in 1994?
The Low-V's that ran on the 42nd Street Shuttle in 1994 dated back to 1918 or thereabouts.
I don't believe any roadworthy composite cars still exist.
"I don't believe any roadworthy composite cars still exist."
The IRT Composite cars were scrapped many years ago, none survive.
Bill "Newkirk"
Composite bodies may still exist. A large number of cars were sold
in the 1940s as shacks, etc. There was "Camp Sanitas" that had
a half dozen bodies, but I think they are all gone. Whole operating
cars were also sold to small railways, mostly in the midwest and
west. Some old Manhattan El gate cars went out to the S.F. area
during W.W. II and of course a pair has been saved in the Western
Railway Museum (aka Bay Area aka Rio Vista). It is entirely possible
that some composite bodies at least are still out there and
viable.
Hey, here's an interesting tidbit I picked up recently: Want
to see an original NY & Brooklyn Bridge RR cable car (the 10'
wide, 3-door kind that was junked after electrification)?
Go to Coney Island yard, and start digging. Evidently at least
one was used as fill.
"Composite bodies may still exist. A large number of cars were sold
in the 1940s as shacks, etc. There was "Camp Sanitas" that had
a half dozen bodies, but I think they are all gone."
Jeff H,
Those cars at Camp Sanita were gate cars, not composites. If any exist anywhere, they are probably a pile of rotted wood by now. If they were preserved whether in a museum setting or shortline railroad, we would all know that by now.
Bill "Newkirk"
You'd be surprised. Recently the new Electric City trolley museum
found a Scranton city trolley car body which had been used as
a room in a pub for fifty years! I wouldn't be surprised if a
composite body were still around as a farmer's shed or what not
out in the midwest. As for a viable car, well.........
One Gibbs Hi-V, 3352, survives at the Seashore Trolley Museum. It's possible that it ran on Day One if it was on the property.
Go to the 3/4 Ton Crew's July 2000 Field Trip report for some shots of it. Todd & others up there are trying to get a group back togather to finish the restoration on her ... I wish them the best of luck. Meanwhile the more recent Hi-V now at Shoreline will keep the flag flying (she's been out once this year so far).
Mr t__:^)
well what did i see in the coney island yards /workshops ?? .....answer that one please !!
And the Museum's set of Standards (3 of 4) are still in the Coney Island shops, maybe some day they'll run again.
Mr t__:^)
I thought the loop was legal! I went thru with no problems, but i snuck in, because the C/R kept saying No passengers!
oh well
The C/Rs and T/Os may say "no passengers" for two reasons:
Either they don't know it's now main line track
and/or
They are aiming their announcments at the 99.9999999% of transit riders who are not rail fans looking to ride around the loop, informing them that if they want to continue in the same direction, they have to change trains.
Here's a sample of the conversation I have now used twice when challenged by a T/O (M/E = me):
T/O: Last stop, no passengers.
M/E: I'd like to ride around the loop. I understand it is now main line track and permissible.
T/O: Whatever. Sure.
[If T/O doesn't seem convinced, you can add:]
M/E: Would you be kind enough to check with the dispatcher if you are unsure?
[If the T/O balks again, it's best you get off the train and try again on the next train.]
[If the T/O seems excited to have you on-board, it's probably SubTalk's own Pelham Bay Dave!]
City Hall loop is no longer Mainline Track. Not since Rudy got scared and doesn't want people riding under him throughout the day.
City Hall loop is no longer Mainline Track. Not since Rudy got scared and doesn't want people riding under him throughout the day.
The policy was changed in the last couple of months. Unfortunately, nobody bothered to tell the crews working the 6.
I don't believe that the City Hall loop has been de-certified as MainLine track. I think its simply a case where the security of City Hall outweighed the convenience of railfans. (I guess they fear a suicide bomber more than a cowardly terrorist who will leave a bomb on a train and run off)
At one time, the loop track in Jamaica yard was considered mainline. it was really something when an there was switch trouble at 75th Ave and a northbound F was rerouted from Continental Ave. into the yard, around the loop, through the carwash, back up the lead and back to the mainline at VanWyck Blvd. People looked so dumbfounded peering out the doorpanels.
I even remember a GO a long time before I actually worked for the TA where we went from Euclid Ave - into Pitkin Yd, changed ends and came out at Hudson Street. I don't know if that was ever a legal move.
Shows you the low voltage brainpower of hizzoner ... if a terrorist could put a bomb on the train and send it through the loop, that'd be incentive enough to NOT discharge the train southbound and let the whole kaboodle ride THROUGH the loop to the northbound platform for the stop. D'Oh! (it's officially a word now) ...
So is Reichsbunker Rudy's hunny allowed in Gracie yet? Words cannot describe the guffaws we get upstate here listening to the continuing tales of Reichsbunker Rudy. He actually outshadows the twit in the White House and that's a hard act to follow. :)
You have your terminology incorrect, she is Rudy's "very good friend". And your right, it does take a lot to outdo our nitwit of a president!
I just get this impression of Rudy alone in the Reichsbunker inflating his date. Not that his former "newsbabe" from WPIX was much of a thrill either. He coulda had "mystical" Kaitie Tong fer krissakes. (just busting chops, Q ...) But this whole NY Post/National Enquirer trip of his is just comical. To FULLY enjoy the effect though, you've gotta live out of NYC where this nonsense plays like the final days of Mussolini ... did Reichsbunker Rudy ever make the trains run on time? :)
Ya gotta love these elephant party guys though for the hypocrites they are. They oughta drag the boy OFF Times Square and hose him down, put him in the "Tombs" for a night to contemplate his pecker. Heh.
BTW ... just so folks know that up here in deep upstate, we're not totally out of touch, we get WNYW-5 and WABC-7 (we'd get 2 and 4 also if the locals (6 and 13 here respectively) would sign off and let us see NYC-TV on the bird bath) ... so I watch ABC and FOX from da chitty up here and never ceased to be amused. Back when we bothered with AOL/TimeWeenie cable, we also had WPIX11 ... been out of the city since 1975 and yet, it's like a car crash where ya just gotta slow down and take it in through NYC TV stations, even up here where you can't get it on a sacred antenna ... we also get KABC-7 and KTLA-11 (ABC and FOX again) from LA ... heh. I won't even go into the "if it's a car chase, we cancel even the evening news to go to "Chopper Dave."
But Reichsbunker Rudy even makes the Canadian TV, Deutsche-Welle (Deutscheland [Germany]), CCTV China and on and on. I'd be embarassed for all you guys back in the City if it weren't for our national Shrub embarassing us even more on a grander scale. I mean, it takes special talents to cheese off SWEDEN! I mean, Sweden is into volleyball and SEX ... they're a very hard nation to cheese off and yet "Our Shrub" has even honked THEM off ... mellowest people on the damned planet.
Some comedy material just writes itself. Were it NOT for Shrub, NYC's Reichsbnuker Rudy would be top banana ... whoop ... freudian slip again and it's white! Woohoo!
Sweden is into volleyball and SEX
I'm overdue for a vacation. I know where I'm going next time :)
--Mark
I must say I like your politcal opinion. Do you agree that his "very good friend" looks like one of the Stepford Wives? She appears possesed by some demon (then again, anyone that would sleep with Rudy....)
I also agree that the Republicans are such hypocrites. Our frat boy president passes these ridiculous under 18 drinking laws (any kids caught with booze should go to jail!!!) but when his kid gets caught.... In fact, I read that all kids caught with fake ID in Austin have been charged with class B offenses, only one person using a fake ID got a lesser C offense, do I have to tell you who that is??????
Later....
Yeah, "Zero tolerance" is truly the answer to "Zero parenting" ... DO AS I SAY DAMMIT, NOT WHAT I DO! ... Uh yeah, cluephone ... this is a recording (and I'm 50 years old dammit! I side with the teens in all this - if there were parents [and an economy so somebody could stay home] then there wouldn't be all this hypocracy) ... "we're for the rights of the unborn - once you're born, you're on your own." Used to be Homey didn't play dat ... but I digress ... my anti-elephant behavior is based on a VERY real fear of being cutoff from transportation (Amtrak's all we gots here) and the severity of the hyprocracy ... the fact that Putin *likes* our Shrub *really* gives me the willies ... but it's an agist "thang" I guess ... when the RUSSKIES approve of our prezzy-dent ... I see brown. Like blowing a homeball ...
Back to the topic, Dave was supposed to find out Monday at work officlally the word on whether City Hall Loop was mainline and open for passengers. Did he ever post his findings.
Whatever his findings, they are irrelevant if the conductors are still telling everyone to get off at Brooklyn Bridge. If I stay on and the conductor is bellowing at me to get off, am I supposed to quote a regulation to him/her or something?
Show him some evidence. Seriously, if a conductor were to yell at me to get off, I'd get off. It's not worth the hassle.
Not yet that I know of ... just keeping the seat warm. :)
OK the answer everyone has been waiting for and there is no simple answer.
Are passengers allowed to ride around the Loop?
NO!
Is the loop considered Mainline Track?
YES! which just means T/O can not key by signals around the loop and Conductors must stay on the train instead of taking that walk onto the platform.
Now here is Local Supervisions Policy
When a Downtown No.6 comes into Brooklyn Bridge the Conductor is suppose to say Last stop No Passengers. But they Only want the T/O to clean out the first car and the C/R only his operating car. The reason local supervison wants it that way is to not back up the No.6 service coming into Brooklyn Bridge.
Also local supervision really doen't care if anyone is on the train as long as its not a layup. The goal is to have the No.6 train to come in and out of Brooklyn Bridge as fast as possable. A C/R did report someone refusing to get off the train but the T/D yelled at the C/R saying "Well take him around we have trains to move".
Well there is your answer there is no clear cut way to put it.
Great, then I'm riding in the last car and looking out the back door!
Your safe if your in the last car. Ofcause if the T/O is PBD you won't have a problem staying in the 1st car.
So we need to know PBD’s #6 schedule! Please…
"Makes the trains run on time"
You've got the ticket my man, I'd expect that sort of historical tie- down with transit only from you, Quite whimsical might I say, couldn't have said it better myself (not sure what I mean, someone please hit me)
Bling-bling ... FREE Bronx handshakes and slapjobs here. :)
Follow the Queen ... she's here, she's there, she's over there, she's in Rudy's Reichsbunker ... film at 11 on 11 ... WARNED ya how seriously I take living on this whirling orb we call "earth" ... Moo!
Would they still do a yard reroute if necessary? For either a GO or emergency reroute (like an F stuck while switching local-express at 75th). It would cause quite a mess if this were not allowed...
The ONLY yard trackage where revenue trains are allowed is A Lead at E.180 St Yard. This is as per Bulletin issued sometime in the last 6 - 12 months.
Alex,
Is there any mention of the yard lead through Unionport?
-Stef
I'm guessing you mean 22 Track which goes out to Y2 on the north and is the Unionport Lead on the south. Theoretically, it should not be open to revenue trains in service; however, now that you mention it, I think I have seen re-routes that way instead of along Y2.
When the new switches went in at 75th Ave (northbound) many years ago, the Jamaica Yard Loop track was no longer considered Main Line. Customers were bussed from Continental Ave. to Union Turnpike for several weekends.
"a northbound F was rerouted from Continental Ave. into the yard, around the loop, through the carwash, back up the lead and back to the mainline at VanWyck Blvd. People looked so dumbfounded peering out the doorpanels"
Train Dude,
That's commonly known as the scenic route !!
Bill "Newkirk"
That all depends regarding the City Hall loop not being a mainline track. For T/O's it is a mainline track and has to be treated so. For many, many years the loop was not considered a mainline track so T/O's were allowed to key-by signals without permission. When keying-by, a T/O must operate his/her train very slowly (restricted speed and extreme caution) expecting the track ahead to be occupied. As you can imagine not all T/O's operate according to rule and varying incidents occurred ranging from signal overruns to collisions. One story I heard was when a T/O keyed a signal and was going too fast around the loop. He/she couldn't stop in time and made an add to the train in front.....while it was MOVING! They tried to cut the trains apart but it took too long and they were caught. So to avoid any more incidents the TA designated the loop a mainline track and therefore T/O's must ask for permission to key-by a signal.
As for the passenger part, that seems to be a gray area. I remember for a short while supervision were not requiring C/R's to clean out their trains and were instructed to make announcements that anybody staying on board the next stop would be BB uptown. I don't think that experiment went too well and many employees stick the old policy of repeating LAST STOP, ALL PASSENGERS OFF! Besides most of us, who wants to stay in the loop? Many who don't know where they are going would think that the train would still be going downtown and get lost.
I don't mind letting a few Railfans ride around the loop. There are some crew that let riders look at the loop but very few.
To find out if riding around the loop is legal which I'm not sure if it is or not because they change the rule on it every mouth it seems like. Mr. No.6 Pel Exp will find out tomorrow if its legal or not. I'm off Monday's but my son will be hard at work.
Happy Father's day to you sir.
Thanks, Dave and Dave, Jr.! I wish I knew in advance when the father-son team was working the #6. It would have made a great story for the radio.
Gee, if the conductor is "in charge" of the train, does that mean that Jr. could give "orders" to Sr.? :-)
Yes, I'm the boss of the train. Working with my dad was great. It was and is a dream come true but its not over. I'm working with PBD Tomorrow as well.
I think we work great together hes a carefull Motorman and I'm a safe Conductor and the train seems to make it on time at the terminals.
Hi Dave Sr. or Jr., Question for ya: Do conductors and/or operators typically run the same line every day for familiarity or do they switch things up on you to keep things interesting. Also, whats the best line (route) to work on, the worst, and why? Thanks in advance!
I know the question isn't addressed to me but the L comes up to mind: for some like zman, the L is the best line to run for others it is the worst. I'm sure many like the 7, the best-ranked line in the system, or the Q, which is second. Also, I always hear the same voices on same routes. Or maybe on related routes as well. I know a conductor by his voice on the Q once or twice I hear it on the D though. So I guess they change lines, but they don't go too far away. I also know a conductor on the R that I always hear only on the R. He's a favorite with the people. When coming down Bway, he names the transfers in a loud voice and at stops he names a point of interest, like at 23rd, the original location of M.Sq. Garden. Also, he says "next stop" like a railroad ticket collector. But at least it's clear, and it turns the R from a boring route to a somewhat enjoyable one.
For me, the L is a good line to work simply because I know how to operate through the timers. Before I knew how, it was a rough line to work.
In my opinion, as a T/O, the best lines to work are (based on operating, equipment, and working assignments):
A, C, F, N, Q, Rockaway Park Shuttle.
And the worst:
E, M, R, Franklin Shuttle.
A lot of fellow workers would wonder as to why I would include the F as one of the best lines. I do so because the R46 is one of the easiest trains to operate, there are a lot of penalty jobs on the line (penalty=built in OT), and the line has very few timers which is saying a lot considering that it takes 1 1/2 hours from end to end.
You're a sick man ... one of these days one of those Canarsie landmines is gonna bite yer arse ... sure hope you have the company discount card for Depends. :)
>>>>>You're a sick man
You JUST found this out? Where've ya been???
As far as the Canarsie timers go, you may be right. But all the regulars on that line have toothmarks on their butt-ocks.
Heh. I've heard ... never worked that line though I've ridden it a few times for kicks back in the 60's ... back when the standards plied the rails with that unique whistle of theirs ... sounded like a woman beind attacked ... heh.
Funny thing - I rode on the BMT standards on the Canarsie every Saturday during their final two years in service, but never heard their whistle. Did it sound anything like the Triplex whistle? I heard it on Heypaul's tape recording of one of the fantrips from last summer.
Ya got me there ... never rode a Triplex ... the word "SHRIEK!" is about the only verbiage that comes across but if you've seen enough cheesy horror movies, then you know what the word "Shriek!" means, combined with my previous description of "woman being attacked" ... first time I heard it, I looked back into the car from the fan window to see if I should be "ducking and covering" ... track work at the time, 5 bulbers, the works ... or "railroad!" as the gandies would yell out. Scariest damn thing I've ever heard compared to the "honk!" of all the whistles I'd come to know from the R1/9's to the redbirds. VERY strange whistle ... scary ... much like a STEAM loco ...
You never rode on a Triplex, either? Join the club. And to think I was in the city literally during their final days of service back in July of 1965 and didn't see them.
If I wasn't so damned busy (and shorta funds) I would have GLADLY done one of the museum runs this year just to sit up front, chat up the motorman, show off my cert and just close my eyes (seen the runs, a Triplex would be an *EAR TREAT* for me (did radio for too many years so closing the eyes and just using the ears is a genuine multimedia experience)) and take in the sounds alone ... the smells of the lacquer, the texture of the seats ... SCREW the ride ... don't need to take in the storm door for the BEST experience of old trains ... it was the SOUND ... like a fine Italian car ... the MUSIC was the experience of the old cars ...
Ask ANYONE who remembers the R1/9's, or the standards ... MUSIC!
Yes, indeed. Those old cars were music to my ears. Moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses, throbbing compressors - you got it all.
While it's true I didn't like the BMT standards back then, I've come to appreciate them for what they were - rugged, dependable, and damn near indestructible.
With the R-1/9s, it was love at first sight.
Heh. What I liked about the standards was that weird green speckled paint. And the compressors made a really weird throbbing noise too. But that HORN was too much.
But the old cars said "machine" ... I still remember the shakes in school car when I had my hands on one shouting in true Wayne's World style, "I am not worthy" ... they WERE a handful.
To me, the compressors on the BMT standards sounded just like the ones on the R-1/9s. So did their bull and pinion gears. Their brakes were a different story; they would give off a single "Tchhhhhhhh" as the train came to a full stop as opposed to the "tch-ssssss' magnet valve sound on the R-1/9s and Triplexes. Their doors were smooth as silk operation-wise, although to this day I honestly cannot remember ever seeing the conductor at one of the button consoles. By some quirk, I must have never ridden in the same car with the conductor.
The two biggest turnoffs about the BMT standards were the lack of bulkhead signs and three sets of doors per side - I had gotten used to seeing four sets on R units.
Must be me ... I remember the standards (only place I ever saw them was on the Canarsie line) having a warbling sound that was strange and yet ... well ... standard for the times ... but it was at least to my recollection different from the R1/9's ... faster and more like something twirling ...
>>>>...was that weird green speckled paint. <<<
OMIGOD! some one who actually liked the pistachio paint!!!!!!!
The sure sign of a sick man
Peace,
ANDEE
Guess I must be sick too -- I liked that spreckled green paint. In the BMT Standards, and in the R-22 special cars 7515-7524. I don't recall it being used in anything else.
I believe the paint went under the brand name "Zolatone".
No, actually this was BEFORE the "cheap Navy surplus paint purchase" in 1970 for the interiors of everything that moved as well as plate girders on some el structures. It was a kinda forest green wityh silver and gold "flecks" in it that appeared to date back to at least the early 50's if not earlier ... it was a VERY unique paint that I saw on a number of BMT cars ...
What "HORN" you talking about? The shrill WHISTLE used as a warning device? It was almost the same as on everything else at the time--the IND R-1/9's, the IRT Lo-V's, SIRT's cars, etc.
The first cars I know of with air horns were the R-10's. Everything else since them got the same type I believe -- aren't they WABCO horns?
The worst ones were those used by PRR and LIRR -- as well as New Haven and the old Broad Street subway cars in Philthadelphia. They would crack and squeal (and surprise everyone around) when they got a little dirt inside them. (The ones out west on the Pacific Electric were deeper in tone, but also did that shrill cracking on occasion -- on MORE occasions than the LIRR/PRR/NH/Philly cars.)
I only took a few rides on standards since I was from the Bronx, the eastern division to me (LL) was just a "never did this one, it's Saturday, let's go" ... but the standards I rode (maybe four trips total) all had a VERY shrieky horn whereas the R1/9's that I worked and rode as a passenger had more traditional "honk-honk" sound to them. The standards though sounded like a woman being attacked. That's what caused me to remember it.
MLW (Montreal Locomotive Works) diesels also had an interesting, almost melodic horn ... CPRail has one or two of them still running and you can always tell when one of them is on the lead ...
C/R's and T/O's are limited by what they call "picks" these happen once every 6 months, from what i am told.
Peace,
ANDEE
[Hi Dave Sr. or Jr., Question for ya....]
As a general rule: If a message appears on the board for EVERYBODY to see, then ANYBODY may respond. If the message is intended for one person EXCLUSIVELY, it should be e-mailed directly to that person.
That being said, suppose one had a question for
Gotham Bus Co. --to what address would we address?
Ok I will answer in two parts
Pelham Bay Dave (SR) Title Train Operator
He has a picked run so he does the same assignment everyday on the No.6 Line. You pick a Daily Job (Mon-Fri) Saturday Job or a Sunday Job. I believe SR likes the No.6 line because of the diffrent equipment he can run on a given day. Hay its the only line you can operate a Redbird,R62 and a R142 all in the same day.
No.6 Pelham Exp (JR) Conductor
I am an Extra I can work any line at any time. I been working mainly on the No.1,2,4,6 Lines.
My favorite Line is the No.5 Line its a fast trip and you meet alot of Females since you work with Redbirds most of the day.
Least Favorite is the No.4 Line.
3 trips from Woodlawn to Utica seems too long and theres never time to eat lunch.
I may still be illegal Friday when I was working the No.6 Line a T.S.S was making sure everyone left the train.
I rode the SIR today, the full length each way. Do those R44's have field shunting? At times between stations the train goes pretty fast, looks like 50mph or more, especially in that stretch between Grasmere and Clifton.
It's like riding a regular railroad without having to buy "tickets". At times it reminds me so much of an RR that I expect the ringing bells when the doors close, or await a conductor to start collecting tickets. I even like the electric transmission poles along the ROW.
Nice cool, moist breeze in Tottenville, even in Eltingville.
At Tottenville while the train sits there between runs you can look into the cab. It does look different than the R44 cabs that run on the subway. Well SIR R44's are OH for RR use.
What kind of training do you need to be an SIR train operator? Do you have to know the FRA rulebook?
I HATE THEM !!!
The SIR R-44s do still have field shunt. I asked a while back, but even if one didn't ask it does not make sense that the SIR be slowed down like the subways were. No pillars to wrap around, and most railroad track is designed for 80 MPH running.
no railfan window no nothing !! ugh !! & they are so dammed ugly !!!
Whoa, Salaam, welcome back. I was afraid with the California power problems, subtalk might have become an unaffordable luxury.
Or a simply unavailable luxury if a power cut is in progress.
-Robert King
The trains go a whopping 45 on a downgrade. That is Limited Speed. I think that one reason that they cannot go faster is because they use light 100 pound rail, like the subway, but they really should try to be more like the real commuter line they claim to be.
Felt more than 45mph!!!
We must always rely not on the speedometer and equipment, bbut rather the "feel" Qtraindash7 gets in order to most acurately measure speed.
I did see a speedometer on SIR train hit 53 between Grasmere and Clifton.
Well I took the OB train to Jamaica today. Enjoyed the fast stretch between MIN and JAM, know once the track replacement goes there will be slow orders.
Some concrete ties have already arrived and are sitting near Queens Village. Well the ride around Jamaica can be kind of rough, so I guess we need the new concrete ties. Just like the redbirds, I'll miss the old clickety clack the wooden ties made, but like all things modernize, the concrete ties will result in a smoother ride.
Also the escalators are closed off at Sutphin, but the stairway is just right around the corner.
Got an R32 E train, it sure was a treat having the E on the weekend.
I can assure you that the E crews thought it was a real treat too since they will do 3 express trips to WTC instead of 2 against the wall to 95th St.! So do the dispatchers at Parsons E! The 95th St nonsense resumes next week for 4 successive weekends as well as the Whitehall St, junk on the weeknights.
I'll miss the old clickety clack the wooden ties made,
I think the clickety clack that you miss is not from the ties, but from the use of welded rail.
Welded rail eliminates most of the rail joints, which is the source of the clickety clack!
It doesn't matter if the ties are wood or concrete, the ties do NOT make the "clickety-clack".
It is the RAIL....the old, 39-foot, jointed sections is what makes the noise. Newer welded rail doesn't make it as much --only at the spot where two rail sections are joined together.
The worst spot along the LIRR Jamaica-to-Mineola stretch is al the switches just east of Queens Village. I shot some videos from the Bellerose platform a few years ago, and you'd swear the GP38-2 locos were bouncing so hard on those switches that the pilot ends were banging the rails.
Yeah and on the bi-levels the swaying is terrible. Well I guess we really need the new ties after all. Hopefully with the new ties it'll be safer to go at high speeds.
The worst spot along the LIRR Jamaica-to-Mineola stretch is al the switches just east of Queens Village. I shot some videos from the Bellerose platform a few years ago, and you'd swear the GP38-2 locos were bouncing so hard on those switches that the pilot ends were banging the rails.
Those switches are rough. I've seen standees on crowded trains nearly knocked over.
I commuted on LIRR diesel trains way back in the sixties, and those switches have been that way ever since. They were probably installed that way -- I doubt they will ever smooth that area out.
The switches at Bellerose are rated for 60 MPH. If you look at the track arrangement, you'll see that the RR made an attempt to provide easement regardless of direction. In reality, the "comfort level" speed for those switches is actually 55 or lower. One of the considerations in that area was the space needed for the entire interlocking - making the use of high speed switches impractical. Even the 2 recently installed X-overs - using high speed tangent point switches - are rated for 60 MPH.
BTW: One oddity of those new x-overs (east and west of Mineola). Normally for a diverging route, the engineer will get a "Medium Clear" signal. However, on the new x-overs he gets a clear or proceed signal. The only thing that tells him that he has a diverging route is the clear signal is accompanied by a 60 code on the ASC.
What was REAL fun was negotiating the switches in the Bellerose area in the cabs of the old Alco C-420's when they were new. They had VERY stiff suspension, and would rock side-to-side violently so you'd think you were gonna tip over sideways. Yet the RS-3's, with a few years' worth of loosening up to them went through there rather smoothly.
They also go through the switches pretty fast. Hopefully this problem will get fixed when they put in the new ties.
I might be annoying but im not if your talking about trains.
Apart from the usual un air conditioned and 10-15 minutes late buses the ride home today from Flushing was a nightmere!
I get to Flushing at 6:40pm to take the 6:57pm N21 bus to Glen Cove. There's aleady a good amount of people there. And I stood in the fifthy humid air. And stood. 7:20pm still no LI Bus to ANYWHERE. The line is quite long at this point, people look confused but I was louder than anyone. After standing for nearly 40 minutes so far waiting for the bus I start complaining. I was really loosing it. Heck I'll even admit I was almost having a fit. Most people ignore me and don't care, other stupid riders ask me if I know where the bus is.
7:30pm still no bus whatsoever. Then a bus finally shows but it's N20 Roslyn. Most people ask the driver what's going on including me he said "I don't know". He also added the last stop is Great Neck LIRR, even though the schedule has it going to Roslyn. This bus 599 had no A/C and people inside were fanning themselves. Yup I feel like it's a third world transit system.
Now I don't feel well at all, as my N21 bus still hasn't come. I got a soda in the pizza parlor nearby, since I was feeling quite dehydrated. 599 pulls out at 7:35pm, 55 minutes late (he was the 6:40pm). 7:40pm finally the N21 bus 149 pulls up. I ask the driver what happened, she said there was terrible traffic on N.Blvd. Didn't hear anything on WCBS or WINS about it while I was waiting, I know the LIE was closed for work till 6pm but it's after 6 now, and I doubt it would affect N.Blvd that bad. Well the bus fortunately had A/C, but once we got into Nassau and started dropping off pax, the front door would not close! So the driver had to get up and push it closed. Then it opened again. And we went with the door open until Great Neck where she tried closing it again, finally got closed, only to get stuck again when making a stop near Community. From then on the door would get stuck, the driver would go a few blocks then pull over and ATTEMPT to get it closed. It would not stay closed. This driver had a world of patience, she must've tried to get the damn front door to close 25 times. And it sure delayed us.
I saw the B/O on the radio but they weren't offering much help. Also at times the door wouldn't open. The bus finally gets to my stop in Sea Cliff at 8:55pm, but the door won't open. She has me twist this red knob near the front but the door still would not open. At this point we were both cracking up. I had to push on the door really hard to get it open. Yup I'm riding a bus what feels like somewhere in Mexico. Finally get out and walk home, at 9pm over two hours since I first started waiting for the bus in Flushing.
Between an OTP of only 20% of the time, frequent problems, and some of the most screwed up things you see in mass transit, LI Bus sure takes the cake. The service is awful. I'm suprised a lunatic hasn't killed anybody at LI Bus yet. It's hard to know it's part of the MTA ya know.
Oh and for those of you who occasionally pick on me because I don't have a job, you don't have to be smart to know with relying on buses in a north shore location like Sea Cliff that holding any job would be a huge feat.
You can bet I'll be calling LI Bus Monday to report this latest nightmere, though I doubt anything will change since most riders simply don't care or are too stupid to know just how bad things are.
You LIRR riders don't know how good you got it. And even the subway lines with the least frequent service like the G and M are 1000% better than riding LI Bus.
7:40pm finally the N21 bus 149 pulls up. I ask the driver what happened, she said there was terrible traffic on N.Blvd. Didn't hear anything on WCBS or WINS about it while I was waiting, I know the LIE was closed for work till 6pm but it's after 6 now, and I doubt it would affect N.Blvd that bad.
It's entirely possible. Until a few years ago I lived on a major road (Meriden Road) in Waterbury, Connecticut that roughly paralleled I-84 for several miles. It was actually the more distant of two parallelling roads, being about a mile away; East Main Street paralleled I-84 at a distance of only about one-quarter mile or less. At any rate, I remember a few occasions when I-84 was closed by crashes; traffic on Meriden Road would be completely gridlocked (E.Main was, needless to say, gridlocked too). And this is for an Interstate that carries just a fraction of the LIE's traffic. So yes, the driver probably was telling the truth about Northern Boulevard.
Well if Northern was that badly jammed they didn't say so on the radio. I had WCBS on earlier in the day and they mentioned that there were some delays on Northern Parkway, but they mentioned that if you were a commercial vehicle that you had to take Jericho Turnpike or Northern Blvd instead.
I knew about the LIE construction today and was purposely listening to reports on WCBS and WINS to see if there were delays on Northern Blvd from the LIE closure. No such mention was made, so I assumed taking the bus back would be OK. If there were in fact serious traffic jams that went unreported by the boneheads at WCBS, and I knew about them I would've taken LIRR home.
LI Bus should run more buses anyway, that way such gaping wouldn't occur. I'd put the N21 on 30 minute headways (as well as the N20) on Saturday afternoons since ridership is just as high, if not slightly higher than at the same time on a weekday. But when there's traffic and not enough buses disaster will surely result. Sure there's traffic in NYC but I've never had to wait an hour for an NYCT bus. It's all about the ridiculously long headways on the N20/21 during middays and weekends.
Well if Northern was that badly jammed they didn't say so on the radio. I had WCBS on earlier in the day and they mentioned that there were some delays on Northern Parkway, but they mentioned that if you were a commercial vehicle that you had to take Jericho Turnpike or Northern Blvd instead.
Remember that recent thread about radio traffic and transit reports ...
Well it happened again today. A minor trip to Greenvale, even the train would've paid! Got the 3:17pm out of Glen Cove, ontime and had A/C to Roslyn where I was to take the N20 to Greenvale. Normally I'd take the N27 but it don't run Sundays. The N20 arrived about 10 minutes late, but I was glad it came. We'd only make it three more blocks. Then going up the entrance ramp to Northern Blvd after the viaduct there is this huge THUD! The bus 213 leaned to the left side, and we couldn't go any further since who knows what would BREAK next. So we had to wait almost an hour for another bus to come. Well at least the driver was very friendly and we had a nice conversation about buses. Thank God it wasn't hot as the bus had no A/C. Why it took so long to get a bus up from the depot is because it was given a wrong location by the dispatcher! Almost thought we'd catch the next bus.
Didn't get to Greenvale until almost 5pm! According to the mechanik whom I saw later in Roslyn, he said the whole backside of the bus broke. You could see the engine almost touching the ground. Next time if the weather is nice I'll just take the LIRR for two short stops down to Greenvale. Heck maybe the conductor wouldn't charge me for such a short ride!
Probably not. :-(
"According to the mechanik whom I saw later in Roslyn, he said the whole backside of the bus broke."
See, there's the problem. If the mechanic gave you such a technical description - "the whole backside of the bus broke.", it's clear that he's too technical for the job. No broken shock - no broken spring - no cracked strut - Nope, just the whole back of the bus broke. But I do commend you for going all the way to Roslyn to follow up. Dedication like that is hard to find.
Too many train simulators... Tomorrow, the mechanik will tell him that Long Island Bve is closing.
I see this item was also posted in BusTalk, where it belongs. Please don't regale us with these tales twice.
David
Then why don't you white a letter to LI Bus that N20/N21 Needs more buses and it allways PACKED. LI Bus could buy Articulated Buses for Routes that can't handle 40 Foot buses. And also tell them on the A/C that alot of times it allways off. Tell them something.
I have written letters and personally went down to Garden City myself to make complaints. And I will call them about these TWO major problems I had this weekend (Another day another breakdown).
I feel for your Saturday problems. My dad who lives on the Brooklyn-Queens border visited my brother in Wantaugh Saturday. LIE jammed. Grand Central-Northen State jammed. Made his way to Southern State. Equally jammed. Obviously motorists would detour their way over to anyeast-west road they could find. Add that to regular Saturday afternoon shopping traffic. Add to it extra people out to get dad a Fathers Day gift. People traveling to graduation parties. Thank goodness we went to one here in Maspeth! With all that traffic, no wonder why the buses can't stay on time. They arrive late, it takes longer to make the trip thereby making them even later for their next trip. And the driver certainly deserves a breath at the end of the trip. Poor guy just has to take a leak sometime! What's the answer? Have a 30+minute layover at each terminal? Not too productive especially when there is not much traffic and the bus can keep to its' schedule. Complain if you want. Saturday's lateness was a highly unusual situation. You will get an apology perhaps, but it costs money to get more buses and manpower out there on the weekends and they don't have the money! The truth is that we are a highly mobile society. We travel. Americans are in love with their cars. And the high cost of fuel and insurance will not stop us. Government won't build more roads because we and they know that they will be equally jammed when completed. I think the ball is in your court.Find a job. Move to a rail accessible apartment. This madness with you and MSBA bus delays just ain't gonna stop!
Hold it! You tricked me! You should have posted this only to BusTalk and not SubTalk! I should not have posted this message on this board just like you weren't supposed to! I should have checked since I read both boards! Sorry.
>>> You should have posted this only to BusTalk and not SubTalk! <<<
John posts these things here because apparently the BusTalkers are too intelligent to respond to his whining.
Tom
Are you in my shoes? Is LI Bus your only way around? Does the LIRR service run every two hours where you are? Do you live in an isolated north shore location?
If you have not answered yes to all these questions you have no business putting me down.
What disease do you have?
John, I have no intention of putting you down. I don't know what mental illness you think you have. From a layman's standpoint, you seem to have paralyzed yourself by the choices you've made in life.
You've locked yourself into a location where public transportation sucks - move!
You've fixated on Asian women - no suggestion there. There sure are enough of them to go around.
Can't hold a job? Try getting a job where the your interests would outweigh the stresses. Work for a transportation company - LI Bus for example. Your interests might mitigate your stress. Or work in an Asian movie theater or Chinese restaurant. The point is - break the cycle - do something.
Well interests do mitigate stress. If it wasn't for railfanning or learning the ins and outs of the NYCS and LIRR, life would be even more depressing.
Staten Island Railway looks like a real nice job. I've asked this before but are they an FRA railroad? Do SIR T/O's have to know the FRA rulebook?
I just don't wanna wind up at a dead end job in a store like the few employed LI Bus riders do, working odd hours and contending with the buses. That would stress me out so much I wouldn't be able to eat. My I want to design railroads, do something creative and work in the best city in the world (NYC). I really don't like Nasty county.
I want Art Vandelay's job.
"Yeah I'm an architect" ["What do you build?"] "I build railroads"
[Isn't that what engineers do] "Well they can".
Sorry if I came across too harsh. BTW in defense of the R68's they frequently do near 50 in the 34-W4th dash.
No job is a dead end unless you see it that way. One step at a time. Get a job that you can handle and then move on to something more interesting and more challanging. Do not set your sights on jobs with high stress levels like on SIRR. As for designing RRs, I can only give you the advice my grandfather gave me when I wanted to drive an ice cream truck. "Retreat, retrench and lower expectations".
First before anything I gotta move to a better location. That's up to supported housing and because of the severe apt shortage it's not gonna happen anytime soon. Yup I'll agree the traffic here is a bummer. The north shore is much worse than the south shore.
North shore homes own many more cars per household and there's less roads. The result is gridlock. Damn I just wish they would have ELECTRIFIED the Oyster Bay line and killed all the NIMBY's.
That's up to supported housing and because of the severe apt shortage it's not gonna happen anytime soon.
No. It's not up to supported housing, it's up to YOU. You're not going to get anywhere by relying on somebody else to do things for you.
If getting a job means getting up at 4AM and coming home at 8PM, then that's something you'll have to do until you can get a new apartment on your own. By believing that you can only be helped by somebody else, you'll never get any help and you'll never get anywhere.
North shore homes own many more cars per household and there's less roads.
Even if they own more cars, then the households would have to be larger in order for more cars to be on the road. Can't drive two cars at once, can you?
Damn I just wish they would have ELECTRIFIED the Oyster Bay line and killed all the NIMBY's.
And electrification would allow more through trains to Penn Station, right? Just like on the West Hempstead Line.
I have a diagnosed mental illness. It's amazing how ignorant so many are about mental illness. Maybe that's why you see so many mentally ill on the subway because of attitude of people like yours.
If I took your advice I'd be stressed out and probably kiss a train.
Bottom line, you're not me, I'm not you. Our abilities are all different. Would I like to operate a train? Most definately. But I CANNOT. The pressure and all that other stuff would drive me crazy.
Sorry I guess I'm stuck in the 70s man, I think we are all too consumed with "work" to enjoy the nice things in life, love, art, music, and our hobbies.
Just put it to bed already, I cannot hold a job because of the location and buses. You don't get around on LI Bus do you? Then you just don't understand how BAD things are here.
Sorry if this flame hurts but I gotta defend myself. Just put yourself in my shoes. Being carless on Long Island, let alone a more distant area, is a tremendous feat.
>>>I have a diagnosed mental illness. It's amazing how ignorant so many are about mental illness. Maybe that's why you see so
many mentally ill on the subway because of attitude of people like yours.
John: You have a medically diagnosed mental illness? I cannot recall that this has been mentioned before.
Of course, if you are not comfortable discussing it, that will certainly not be a problem.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I am kind of uncomfortable discussing it but sometimes I have to explain myself. I have moderate depression and anxiety disorder, I even have a Reduced Fare MC. I want to work, but I can't handle anything at this situation I'm in now. When you have buses that run once an hour and are on time only 20% of the time, plus constantly breaking down, that's hard enough for a normal person to endure, let alone someone with mental illness.
As far as those who argue it may be off-topic it is indeed on-topic. Transit on Long Island (aside from LIRR) is viewed upon as a service for the poor people on social services. LI bus isn't given the same treatment as the LIRR by the MTA and darn it, it's just not fair. By MTA and the public in general viewing LI Bus as a service to the poor and disabled, they are percieved as not needing work. Even on a recent talk show on WHPC 90.3, a public welfare service employee said it's very hard to get people off assistance because it is nearly impossible to hold a regular job for carless in Nassau.
He actually proposed something I agree with, purchasing cars and driver training so people can get off assistance and support themselves. When they have the money once they are on their own they can pay the county back.
It just gets me so angry that LI Bus service is so lousy and ignored. Some people can't drive. Other can't afford to. How are they supposed to get out of their mess (like me) without making yourself sick?
Also what's up with the planneed HUB rail system for Hempstead, Garden City, and Westbury? I guess it's out the window.
I am kind of uncomfortable discussing it but sometimes I have to explain myself. I have moderate depression and anxiety disorder, I even have a Reduced Fare MC. I want to work, but I can't handle anything at this situation I'm in now. When you have buses that run once an hour and are on time only 20% of the time, plus constantly breaking down, that's hard enough for a normal person to endure, let alone someone with mental illness.
I'm sure that many people with your condition manage to work and function quite well. Yes, having to deal with LI Bus isn't easy, but keep in mind that there are people worse off than yourself who don't let LI Bus get them down, so to speak. You have noted - many times - that you're single and have no family. Consider what it must be like for a single parent with a couple of small children. Probably a lot harder than your situation. And yet I'm sure there are plenty of people like that riding LI Bus every day.
As far as those who argue it may be off-topic it is indeed on-topic. Transit on Long Island (aside from LIRR) is viewed upon as a service for the poor people on social services.
Attitudes like that unfortunately are common in many suburban areas around the country. Long Island actually has better transit service, even disregarding the LIRR, than most suburbs.
He actually proposed something I agree with, purchasing cars and driver training so people can get off assistance and support themselves. When they have the money once they are on their own they can pay the county back.
Programs like that have been tried in various places, none of them around New York IIRC. They haven't worked too well, mainly because car ownership is an ongoing expense - gas, repairs, insurance, and so on. Helping people just with initial purchases usually isn't sufficient.
What really bugs me that they never built a bridge or some kind of a crossing from Westchester County to Nassau County like Robert Moses had proposed a great many years ago. To get to Nassau County from Westchester County one must take either the Bronx-Whitestone or Throggs Neck bridges either of which can be jammed packed with traffic at times and drive on a traffic packed artery for a distance to get to your destination. If they were to build such a crossing I would include at least two railroad tracks so that either freight or passenger trains can go directly to Long Island from Westchester without having to go through the Bronx and Queens. Same for automobile and truck traffic. Then I would also build a railroad track(s) along I-287 (Cross Westchester Expressway) to the Tappan Zee Bridge and build a tunnel under the Hudson River for these railroad tracks into Rockland County. This way people who have no cars can easily get into Nassau County from Westchester when neccessary and might help to relieve some of the traffic congestion in the New York Metropolitan area.
BMTJeff
This way people who have no cars can easily get into Nassau County from Westchester when neccessary and might help to relieve some of the traffic congestion in the New York Metropolitan area.
It would not. Nobody would ride this train. Mass Transit only works if there is a center on at least one end. People can drive to the station to ride the train, but if they can't walk or take another form of transit to their ultimate destination, what good is it? Are they going to pick up another car from the other terminal?
There is a center not far from at least one end which happens to be White Plains. There is a major Metro North station on the Harlem Line in White Plains plus there are many bus connections in White Plains also. In Ryr you have a Metro North station which is on the New Haven Line and Amtrak also serves that station so you have important connections there also. In Tarrytown there is another Metro North station which is on the Hudson Line and there is also a connection for Amtrak trains.
BMTJeff
White Plains isn't a big enough center to justify anything more than express bus service from Long Island, especially not such a huge expenditure.
As for Metro-North and Amtrak connections, they are better done in Midtown where there is greater service.
Occasionally downtown hubs have to be bypassed and since White Plains is the center of Westchester County business it would be a very good point for important rail connections including one to Long Island. True it won't be as large as a similar connection in New York City but sometimes you need a satellite transportation hub in addition to a primary transportation hub.
BMTJeff
There aren't enough commuters from Long Island to White Plains to justify it. For most people, it would still be more convenient to take a car.
Unfortunately with time it may be necessary to have a connection between Nassau County and Westchester County for those who wish to travel bewteen the two counties without having to go through any part of NYC. Don't forget that this can also afford more direct connections to points in Connecticut and Rockland County in time.
BMTJeff
adding to the list:
Poughkeepsie... Croton Harmon...
New Haven... Stamford.
....more
Those are important transportation connection point and I've I'm not mistaken are served by Amtrak.
BMTJeff
Laugh if you want, but back in my teenage years in the 1980's, I used to take public transit from my house in Levittown to a (female) friend in Amawalk. It invloved a hefty mix of the LIRR, subway, Metro-North, Bee-Line Busses, and occassionally starting with MSBA if I couldn't get a ride to Hicksville. It would have been a thousand times easier if there had been a direct line.
Of course, everyone was amazed that I would do it. Noone else ever wanted to. Come to think of it, the girl never once saw my house!
If nothing else, I think it would be a good idea to unify the fare structures of the two MTA commuter railroads. Make it possible to go between Hicksville and Mount Kisco on one ticket, for less money than the two combined. You could make Hicksville the same fare zone as, say, Hartsdale, and a trip through NYC would be an indirect trip (like is possible now, going between LIRR stations on different lines via Jamaica.) It would cost nothing if it fails, and may bring more riders if it succeeds, especially once the East Side Access project is complete.
I still say they should run a railroad accross the sound.
:-) Andrew
Gawd! That sound very similar to some of the trips I used to take (and around the same timeframe too!) our paths may have crossed,....
Peace and THANKS,
ANDEE
I have a diagnosed mental illness. It's amazing how ignorant so many are about mental illness. Maybe that's why you see so many mentally ill on the subway because of attitude of people like yours.
But I wasn't aware of that. You never mentioned it and I had no way of knowing that a real problem prevents you from holding a job. Your posts tend to blame Long Island Bus and supported housing for your troubles, not your illness.
I'm sorry.
As for my stand on mental health, that's the only matter on which I agreed with you in the panhandling thread on Subtalk. The current mental health system is not adequate for many people. It's not ignorance about illness, it's ignorance about your situation (for which I cannot blame you, it must be difficult to talk about).
Sorry if this flame hurts but I gotta defend myself.
I don't see it as a flame, you certainly should defend myself. It's more my fault for not taking into account other considerations.
I'm sorry I thought I brought up my mental illness in the past.
I'll admit the "disorder" may make me repetitive about LI Bus, I'm sorry if it has seemed so. The buses just seem to me to be much more unreliable than ever. It probably has to do with the Nasty county budget crisis. It just gets me so mad when mass transportation is ignored. THe current mentality in Nasty county is that "freaks" ride the bus, and normal people drive luxury SUV's. Personally I think it's the other way around!
BTW for whoever created the "Nasty" county name I sure hope you don't mind that I am using it. It surely can be a "Nasty" county, especially if you don't drive a car.
There are jobs that can be had, unless a doctor has ordered otherwise. How about working for NYCT Travel Information, or LIRR Travel Information, or LIB Travel Information? Yes, those jobs have some stress attached (such as a mandated minimum number of calls to be handled), but certainly a railfan/busfan who rides around various transit systems all day has enough knowledge of those systems and interest in those systems to be able to do a good job dispensing information about those systems.
Look on the MTA website for job postings.
David
>>> I just wish they would have ELECTRIFIED the Oyster Bay line and killed all the NIMBY's. <<<
Even better than killing the NIMBYs would be cutting off supported housing, so no one would have a lame excuse for not moving to someplace where he could get a job.
Tom
One word. MEAN.
Since I live in Westchester County I have on rare occasions taken a Bee-Line bus. They seem to be reliable in my limited experience. Most of the time the air conditioning works on the Bee-Line buses in Westchester County.
Yesterday I had to go into Manhattan and took a Metro North Hudson Line train to Marble Hill and change to the IRT subway at 225th Street. I boarded a #9 train and was on Car #2371 head to 66th Street. The A/C was weaf in that particular car. Coming back I took a #1 train to 225th Street and was riding car #2445 which also had weak A/C. Got off at 225th Street and took a Hudson Line trainat Marble Hill back to Hastings-on-Hudson. The train which was supposed to arrive at Marble Hill at 12:40 P.M. was 7 or 8 minutes late. Unusual for Metro North. It arrived at Hastings-on-Hudson about 7 or 8 minutes late.
BMTJeff
>>> He also added the last stop is Great Neck LIRR .....You LIRR riders don't know how good you got it. And even the subway lines with the least frequent service like the G and M are 1000% better than riding LI Bus. <<<
Uh! Did I somehow miss the rest of the rail content in this post? Isn't this post a lot more interesting to readers of Bus Talk?
Tom
I had to go out to Hofstra U. yesterday. Judging from this commute from H***, its a good thing I had a car to get there.
If this can be compared to any rail content, how about me getting onto an R-62a in the higher 1700s a few days ago that had absolutely no freon left in the car (this was on the #6 express, thankfully). Or how about some redbirds with perenially faulty A/C systems?
Well it's generally transit related, and was quite a major headache.
Perhaps if we had a better rail system in Nassau public transport would be better. But so far I have heard no mention of any alternatives to LI Bus besides the LIRR. I'd take the LIRR more often but the station is almost a mile away and I will drop dead from exhaustion in this mucky weather. Now there used to be a trolley line that ran from the Sea Cliff railroad station into downtown and down to the water. But in this "preservationist town" not one rail has been preserved. What a shame. I sure could've used that trolley!
Please excuse this message being posted three times. I have a slow connection and was getting errors. Does dial-up suck or are those north shore phone lines too noisy?
I guess it's gonna be time to get DSL real soon.
[I'd take the LIRR more often but the station is almost a mile away and I will drop dead from exhaustion in this mucky weather. ]
What kind of a proffessional whiner are you? If walking a mile for a young guy like you is a problem, you'd better see a doctor.
Arti
Not a problem at all. I can walk 5 miles. But when it's humid or hot outside forget about it! I have always had problems tolerating the heat. If this seems abnormal, than it's probably a physical condition.
I actually like to walk. Just not when the temperature or humidity is above 80.
Well it's generally transit related, and was quite a major headache.
Perhaps if we had a better rail system in Nassau public transport would be better. But so far I have heard no mention of any alternatives to LI Bus besides the LIRR. I'd take the LIRR more often but the station is almost a mile away and I will drop dead from exhaustion in this mucky weather. Now there used to be a trolley line that ran from the Sea Cliff railroad station into downtown and down to the water. But in this "preservationist town" not one rail has been preserved. What a shame. I sure could've used that trolley!
Well it's generally transit related, and was quite a major headache.
Perhaps if we had a better rail system in Nassau public transport would be better. But so far I have heard no mention of any alternatives to LI Bus besides the LIRR. I'd take the LIRR more often but the station is almost a mile away and I will drop dead from exhaustion in this mucky weather. Now there used to be a trolley line that ran from the Sea Cliff railroad station into downtown and down to the water. But in this "preservationist town" not one rail has been preserved. What a shame.I sure could've used that trolley!
>pick on me because I don't have a job...
Effort is what counts.
......aaaand THAT'S the MYSTICAL truth, Spanky.
Oh and for those of you who occasionally pick on me because I don't have a job, you don't have to be smart to know with relying on buses in a north shore location like Sea Cliff that holding any job would be a huge feat.
So? You've got to eat somehow?
Why not drive for LI Bus? (Rimshot)
But seriously, you can drive for NJT. They don't require the civil service test I don't believe and all you need is a high school diploma and three years driving experience. Come on man, it's not that hard!
On Friday I drove from Burlington to Palmyra to look at the progress of the construction of the SJLRTS on the Bordentown Secondary.
My photos are here.
chuchu,
I pretty much did what you did some 2 weeks ago. I noticed the station buildings at Burlington and Riverside. When was the last time this line saw passenger service ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When was the last time this line saw passenger service?
I don't know. My father rode it in 1954 travelling from Haddonfield to Newark, changing trains at Trenton. I remember him talking about the train running down the middle of the main street of Burlington.
Excellent shots.
One comment: I'm a little disapointed that the line will use DLRV's. It's almost reverse deja vu all over again. Back in the early 1930's PSNJ de-wired the Trenton-Camden interurban and converted two Composite cars of the 2600 series to gas-electrics. The cars were a partial success, but PSNJ killed the line for good in 1933 or so.
Now NJT is doing it in reverse. That D in DLRV stands for Diesel. Just as dirty as a bus, but in a rail environment. I wonder if the construction costs for electric are that much more in a package? Did NJT think non-electric rail transit will see better, or did they just accept a vendor's package for DLRV's with no thinking or review?
Surely after H-B LRV a diesel version is a dumb idea.
Doesn't Cleveland (or is it Cincinatti?) use a DLRV type vehicle for an a city - airport rail line? I remember seeing a picture some years ago...
Don't know about Cincinatti, but Cleveland's airport is served by RTA's Red Line, the former Cleveland Transit System's Rapid. The line uses overhead catenary, but the cars are 75 foot heavy rapid transit cars otherwise. The Airport extension dates from the late 1960's and the Red line is ranked as one of the least used rapid transit lines in the country.
Is there a part of it that I could see it by the NJ Transit Bus Route 409? I could have saw a NJ Transit Bus Stop on one of the Photos. Since I comming to Phily this Saturday and I would be takeing the 409 Bus to Phily and hopeing to see it.
My understanding of the 409 bus is that it runs mainly on Rte 130, while the Bordentown Secondary runs essentially through the centers of most towns along its route. The 409 does, however, go to Broad and High in Burlington, so you'd be able to see it there, where the track is in the middle of Broad St.
OK. I looked at a 409 Map and the 409 runs on Broad St between Bordentown Road and Kein Blvd in Burlington. And I do understand that it runs in the Middle of the Street. So I try to get photos of it while I on the bus.
If you have time to walk around the Rand Transportation Center (PATCO Broadway station) in Camden, there is light rail construction in the vicinity.
What part of Rand Transportation Center is it? Is it close by the Broadway Stop on the PATCO Phily Line?
The Broadway PATCO stop is IN the Rand Transportation Center.
Oh. BUT what part of Rand Transportation Center where they doing tohe work?
I've only seen it from PATCO. It looks like if you leave the station and go around the corner without crossing the street (either Broadway or Mickle) and go 1/2 block east on Mickle, you might see the line where it goes over PATCO. If you cross Broadway and walk west on Mickle, you MIGHT see something (just a guess).
Well with all the track work they are putting in, after the DLRV's fail they might be able to replace it with good old commuter rail. This line will also allow NJT to get their AC Line equipment up to the maintainence bases with less of a hassle.
Hey Chuchu, have you checked on my friend Y130 and Y131 lately? If they are still up I might want to put a sticker begging any MoW guy to call me if when they are taken down.
Isn't the line meant to serve freight at night? ...in which case the rails would already be up to heavy rail standards...in which case why not just go to commuter "heavy" rail to begin with and scrap the D(bleeech!)LRV idea altogether?
That would make a lick of sence.
Excellent pix, Bob. Keep 'em comin. Let me know next time you're out. I gotta test out my digital cam! :O)
It is a gross profanity to even mention Long Island Bus, let alone praise it. I hail from Freeport and first rode it over twenty five years ago. It was garbage then and it is dog crap now. Only Baltimore, where I live, is worse (much worse but that's no recommendation). So don't even mention LONG ISLAND BUS! It is a transit profanity that not even a bus lover could love.
E_DOG
Ever since Nassau County's budget went through the floor, LI Bus went with it. Only enough money for the necessary CNG and the drivers that run the buses. It's a wonder that the routes weren't dropped completly (or, I may have spoken too soon). And that's a damn shame too. 'Cause when I had to take LI bus to get to LIU - CW Post a few years ago, I thought it was a much better ride than NYCT. Esp. with the automated stop announcemnts.
More R-33/36WFs from Corona were on their way to somewhere in the Bronx Friday night; approximately 11:30 PM, I saw a train still signed up as a 7 head into 34 St on the 6 Ave express tracks southbound, then turn around and head north again. My F raced it past 42 St, after which the Redbirds had to pause to wait for a D at 47-50 Sts. I didn't get a count of how many cars in the consist, and the only car numbers I had a chance to jot down were the leading northbound cars, 9467-9466. There were some 93xxs in there, too.
so what's that all about?
Umm... one of the IRT yards in the Bronx is getting a few more R-33/36WFs (possibly to prepare for scrapping)?
..@..& replace them with the new " scrap ready " r-142s ?? ..........LOL !!
? question how did you see this on a train without any railfan window ?? ( just curious )
Out the side windows
It was probably a transfer move from Westcester to Corona.
Oh, and BTW, is there room on this train/bus for one more passenger???
It's like the last car of a Queensbound E at 5:20 PM; you just kind of force your way in ;). Welcome aboard, or rather, step in, stand clear of the closing doors...
"It's like the last car of a Queensbound E at 5:20 PM; you just kind of force your way in ;)."
You don't have to tell me about that. I'm a vet of the Lex. Try getting a six at the Central during that same time period. Be sure to take some oxytocin with you.:)
Hi Welcome aboard I'm one of the Subway Conductors on this board. I'm a new C/R so I'm Extra on the IRT lines which means I can work on the No.1/9,2,3,4,5,6,7 Lines any day of the week.
I been assigned to the No.6 Line the last few weeks and it is almost like mission Imposable.
Your mission as a No.6 Line C/R if you choose to take it is to get a No.6 train from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge in 58 Minutes during the rush hour.
Well if any are wondering thats my mission tomorrow because I will be working on the No.6 out of Pelham at 8AM.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but there's no way on Earth you can get a <6> from the Park to the Bridge in 58 mins. I once tried going from Parkchester to the Bridge in 59, and it wound up being 1:15. All in a day's ride on the Lex.
Look at the #6 timetable on the MTA website. Scheduled running time during the AM rush (Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge, express in Bronx) is just under an hour. The latest on-time performance figures I have on hand are from March, at which time #6 trains ran on-time 94.6% of the time on weekdays (24-hour period). Evidently, somebody's able to get a train from Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge in under an hour.
David
What is the latest criterion for "on-time"?
Somehow I knew Steve would respond...
It is whatever NYCT says it is. I will not debate the definition or its merits or lack thereof. The point, without getting flippant, is that, whatever the definition may be (acceptable to Mr. Bauman and/or others, or not), at least some #6 trains are getting from one end of the line to the other in somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 minutes.
David
Scheduled running time during the AM rush (Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge, express in Bronx) is just under an hour. The latest on-time performance figures I have on hand are from March, at which time #6 trains ran on-time 94.6% of the time on weekdays (24-hour period). Evidently, somebody's able to get a train from Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge in under an hour...It is whatever NYCT says it is...least some #6 trains are getting from one end of the line to the other in somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 minutes.
I believe that NYCT's still current "on-time" criterion is arrival at the terminal in less than the scheduled arrival time plus 6 minutes. It is entirely possible under this criterion to have a scheduled run of 58 minutes to have a 100% on-time performance and still have NO trains arrive in under one hour.
Steve's right. I should have said "closer to the just-under-60-minutes reported on the timetable than to the 75 minutes reported by the original poster."
Happy?
David
I should have said "closer to the just-under-60-minutes reported on the timetable than to the 75 minutes reported by the original poster."
That depends on what you mean by "closer". If you meant that the expected travel time were closer to 60 than 75, then the on-time statistic you cited does not prove your point.
It is fairly difficult to measure performance with a single metric. The TA's on-time statistic leaves much to be desired as an indicator of how well the trains are run. The TA has made adjustments to keep this metric steady despite service degradations. They have doubled the "on-time" threshold from 3 to 6 minutes. They have increased the scheduled running times. Lastly, TA workers have falsified the time of arrival data.
Statistics can play a vital role in alerting management to potential problems before they become catastrophies. The TA's changing of the criterion have forced observers to come up with a metric that outside observers can verify. The concept of "service regularity" was developed for this purpose. It is essentially the percentage of trains that arrive within 50% of their scheduled headways. This percentage was 73% for morning rush hour #6's according independent data taken in June/July 2000. The midday offpeak value was 93%. The TA's own data for the 1st quarter 2000 was 68% for the same metric averaged from 6 AM - 9 PM.
This metric does give some handle on how well the TA manages its train operation. Clearly, values around 70% as opposed to 95%, idicate that there can be much improvement. Not suprisingly, the TA's response has been to change the definition of this metric. Analysis has shown that the TA's changes would increase these figures without changing train perfomance one bit.
BTW, the scheduled running time for the Pelham express used to be 45 1/2 minutes compared to the 53 - 59 minutes reported on the MTA timetable website.
Nowhere in this entire analysis did I see a running time of 75 minutes (as reported by the original poster). That's the point I was trying to make...the ONLY point.
David
Let me immediately introduce my self, Seven, that crazy graffiti vandal/Urban explorer that all real hard-core railfans despise, I go where I shouldn't and do things unwholesome, being hating me now, Welcome aboard, I'm sure you'll find this board.......interesting...to say the least.
Point taken.
Well ... I give up ... Nancy got me a copy of this garbage last week, been through seven sets of disks, every #@%^&@# one of them DEFECTIVE. Last install attempt tonight resulted in 436 errors on the first CDROM (mostly blue screens, occasionally a "you must clean the CDROM") and over 36 on the second CDROM whereupon it went and uninstalled itself.
Seems as though these disks Redmond shipped go bad in the box and each replacement set is just worse than the last. And no, nothing wrong with the CDROM drive(s) ... we've tried it on dozens of different machines here in the labs. Examination of the CDROMs show that the paper carrier they come in scratches them up but worse is some kind of chemical spotting and stains on the media itself. Warped disks, and worse, the tracks are NOT centered. Really poor manufacturing techniques.
We're not going to play anymore - it's a pity, thought it would be a nice toy ... just wondered if anyone else here went through this degree of nonsense also? Long live BVE and Mechanik ...
I bought this to run on the new computer I'm building for my sister. The computer should be done sometime this week and then I'll install MS Train Sim. I hope I don't have any problems with the install...I'm really excited about this game! I can't wait to play it!
Keep the receipt and make sure you have it installed within 30 days. So far I've gotten six emails from others who have gone through what I went through with the install never happening. And if you go beyond 30 days from purchase, tough noogies ... what put me over the top was that after all these defective packages, it's 30 days from the *FIRST* defective package, not the new one brought home that doesn't work.
Good old Microsoft ...
I think there's a rash of discs being messed up. Recently, all the PAL DVDs for this band was recalled because of syncronization problem. The NTSC discs were okay. So, where was your disc made? USA or Gawdnoswhere?
Kingdom of Redmond, just north of Manchuria I s'pose ... don't care, just wish I could bill them for the time. Company I work for charges 6 figures for custom analysis of nasties. :)
Frankly, I don't care, my 30 days are almost up - I don't wanna play anymore. Not for 1.8 gigs of disk space for 6 routes and not a damned disk we've gone and drove 30 miles for works. It'd be different in my mind if the second or fifth CDROM was any good. I'll wait for the cracked warez version and download a "known good ISO print" and pay nothing. From what I saw on the box, I really wasn't impressed to begin with. Being tortured to hell by one bad disk after another, I'll take the *BUS* ... :)
Microsoft has managed to do ONE thing - recreating the Amtrak experience in Arizona. :)
I was also tempted to wait for a CR-rip or ISO, but I have a personal policy of supporting software that I really like AND the MS train sim is probably something better to have w/ the manual. By actually buying the game (maybe wait a bit till the price drops or MS offers a MIR) you would encourage other software firms to make their own train sims.
IMHO the REAL rip off is Train Dispatcher 2/3. It is about a 4 meg game that they have the gual to charge $50 for. They also charge about $65 for the 2 meg scenario editor. Do to the lack of game popularity I can't find a ripp version anywhere. Give me a yell if you do find a ripp version of MS train sim. Maybe we could work out a trade.
Nah, I'll do without it ... I don't believe in depriving a vendor of their due ... either I buy it, or do without. But I'm *truly* honked off at the poor quality of manufacturing since we've gotten replacements from 4 different "batches" and they're ALL BAD ... cheap plastic was pressed and it got "mottled" - the substrates actually turned CLOUDY and because they were pressed into a cardboard folder thingy (two disks) they also got SCRATCHED SEVERELY on top of the cheap plastic used for the CDROMs. That's the problem. You'd think a company like Microsoft could press CDROMs given how many of them they sell.
We're going to give it ONE LAST TRY on the 29th day when a new truckload arrives and if it's still no good, refund, Mechanik forever. :)
If I freely play games I only marginly enjoy and only pay for games I really enjoy I will A) skew the market to making games I enjoy and B) lower the price charged for all games.
Nope ... just the opposite will happen. That's why Japan has LOTS of neat subway games while we have SQUAT ... hell, on the Akihabara, you can walk right up to a REAL LIFE SIZED cab, toss in some yen and grab real size handles in front of HDTV monitors until you puke. Here, they let you look at Lionels through plate glass. :)
I'm ROFL about everyone that just HAD to rush out and buy that program the moment it came out, and now everyone's crying about all the problems. I knew it was going to happen.
I'm just sitting back laughing at it all.....I won't buy it until at least a couple revisions come out....and counting my blessings on how much money I've saved by NOT being in the mad rush everyone else was to get the program.
Heh. And here it is, FATHER'S DAY ... looking forward to my prize and all I get is a End User License Agreement that I can't read. At least the install of Adobe Reader went smoothly off that crap. :)
THAT works at least.
Makes me wonder if Bill Gates (head idiot at MS) ever rode a train in his life! :-0
Im sure they'll release Version 2.0 in LIKE TWO YEARS, keep waiting, My friend aquired a copy, works fine. Stop complaining Everyone.
Yup as the old saying goes "The best things come for those that wait".
Exactly why I'm not "taking the chance" with Ms trainsim. I finally have a computer that works right, and I want to KEEP IT THAT WAY!
Good luck, you deserve a refund.
Here is my story:
I first installed it on my K6-2 450 machine. It installed but that is all I wound up deleting it after the Direct X 8.0A did not install.
I next tried by celeron 600 and it worked! I tried to AMtrak NEC demo train ride and it did work.
I installed the game fine on the first try. I installed the whole thing onto my hard drive, so I never need the CD-ROMs for anything. No idea if anything has happened to them since.
DirectX 8 installed fine on my machine (which had DirectX 7 before), a PIII-700 from over a year ago.
Game started up. Opening video of the company logos had audio but no video. Downloaded new MPEG codecs and then I could see the video (not much of an improvement, really).
Game occasionally it locks up or crashes when I switch views. Doesn't seem to be any pattern, I'm assuming it's my video card driver, which is old and not certified by Microsoft. I plan on downloading a new version to see if that fixes it. One time the game crashed and offered to send diagnostic information to Microsoft. Sure, I thought. The program that's supposed to send the information crashed too, and I had to reboot the machine.
Otherwise the game works great for me. For entertainment value I thought the Densya De Go games in Japan were more fun, but MSTS is a more serious product with a greater variety of train types and scenarios.
To run MSTS Or MCTR you need a new computer I need a new computer this computer im typing on is old and needs replacing so it is best to wait till you have a new computer to run MSTS Or MCTR.
I'd say a Pentium 4 with 1024 megs of RAM would qualify ... we're a software company - lots of variety ... and yes, we played "disk of the day" once again ... almost seemed like it was going to go this time. Not too many splots on the platters and only a handful of gouges ... disk 1 actually went all the way through with only 5 blue screens and FAST too with the copying unlike the others. Ah, but the gold colored disk sounded like a buzzsaw when it was its turn. "Unable to validate media, installation halted" ... the disk was sliced, cloudy and WARPED. The buzzsaw noise was an off center disk, and the poor servo trying to follow warpage, clouded plastic and tracks that were once again OFF CENTER ... CompUSA got some seriously bad batches ...
So it's off to Electronics Boutique in Colonie NY to see if they got a good batch. If not, I'm going to have to sneak into CPRail's Kenwood yards and do another reverse move of some freight cars. :)
(Monday Times Union - derailment for those who are curious) ...
No computer however new will be able to deal with defective media like those CD-ROMs. Personally, I've never seen or even heard of such poorly made CDs being issued to the public. My best guess is that Microsoft picked a really bad duplicating service to make the CDs. Then again, in this case the quality of the CD itself is roughly on par with the quality of Microsoft's products (don't get me started on that)...
-Robert King
Friday June 15 7:23 AM ET
Head of Railway Run Over by One of His Trains
MOSCOW (Reuters) - The head of the railway company in the central Asian state of Turkmenistan was killed on Thursday when one of his own trains ran him over, Russia's Interfax news agency quoted local officials as saying.
Interfax quoted a source in the office of the prosecutor-general as saying Khamurat Berdyev, 41, was killed on Thursday morning as he crossed a railway line when a train hit him from behind. Berdyev was appointed in January.
The accident was at the main railway station in Turkmen capital, Ashgabat.
He must have cancelled employee appreciation day.
Sounds like something that would happen on the LIRR!
The head of the railway company in the central Asian state of Turkmenistan was killed on Thursday when one of his own trains ran him over, Russia's Interfax news agency quoted local officials as saying.
Interfax quoted a source in the office of the prosecutor-general as saying Khamurat Berdyev, 41, was killed on Thursday morning as he crossed a railway line when a train hit him from behind. Berdyev was appointed in January.
The accident was at the main railway station in Turkmen capital, Ashgabat.
Maybe the engineer of the train that hit Berdyev will be fired, resulting in significant financial hardship and a lifelong resentment of railroads and transit. Some years hence, the ex-engineer will become mayor of Ashgabat, and will do all in his power to stop any expansions of the city's transit system
See, history can repeat itself :-)
That train operator must have acheived martyrdom at work with that move!
I've got a new "Philadelphia Fantrips" section on my homepage. The first "Peter Witt" section is up, with more to come from Philadelphia. There are about 10 photographs from a spectacular fall day. As always, comments and corrections are appreciated.
KP
Great shots, Pete! Keep them coming.
Bob
Thanks, Bob, I did. Today I added more photos from a different Philadelphia Transit Tour on the same page. Scroll down a bit. These might look familiar to you. :O)
I am wearing:
A gray T-Shirt with "Madsoul" graffitied on it.
Baggy cargo pants.
In the ear headphones.
Carrying my NYCTA vest! (will wear it on actual train trip) (But I am 13 and 5'9" so :-) )
Wearing a light blue Yankees Hat
Going to be wearing a blue bandana under it while on the train ride.
Cya all there!
Does anybody have a picture of a route layout they have in mind? This would include 63rd St, both sides of the Manhattan Bridge open, if you want, a connection to Nassau St loop, unlimited amount of cars, 2nd Ave subway, all IND construction completed {South 4th, etc}, a connection to the 63rd St line from 2nd Ave, both from upper 2nd Ave to west 63rd and from lower 2nd Ave to east 63rd {Queens Blvd}. Let your ideas run wild. {A good plan is on nycsubway.org but it is without the 2nd Ave subway, and surrounding connections.} Keep in mind that Grand St is a 2nd Ave stop and therefore, a train from South Bklyn BMT can get on the 2nd Ave line right from the Manhattan Bridge. There's just one limitation I'd advise so we don't all go out of our minds: track space, 30 tph is capacity. My advisory would be to make all routes 10 tph each and then no more than 3 lines can run on a TRACK at once, making a regular local/express track system like the Brighton line have a capacity of 6 lines: 3 local, 3 express.
Explored mostly BMT Southern Division, Sea Beach and West End. Was lucky to get R42 on R for a nice view.
Now some observations.
1. At 57th Street station on Broadway BMT it looks like the original local tunnel extends past where the current line turns east. What's with that? Did they have plans to extend it through the park originally?
2. Canal St. express station is very wet, water everywhere, but it looks like it's not a leak but rather condensation.
3. There's some construction going on at Essex Street trolley terminal, it's well lit. So if anyone want's to take pictures, it's a good time.
4. Sea Beach seems to go through mostly low population areas, somewhat confirmed by the census data map at OASIS web site.
It seems like there could be quite few stops they could eliminate. Also what's the need for it to go to Coney Island at all?
5. What's up with the speed on BMT. The only time I could call it a rapid transit was on the 4th Avenue express run. Otherwise a moving walkway could do a better job.
6. The curve from 63rd to 7th Avenue is tilted, haven't noticed it elswhere.
Arti
Hey Arti:
1. You rode an R-42 on the "R"--I haven't seen those since the "RR"!!
2. I once read that the BMT Broadway was supposed to go into the park and turn northwest, then North again up into Washington Heights(guess the construction of the IND made that useless!!)
3. Some BMT "Q" runs are pretty quick.
4. Even when there was regular Broadway express service on the Canal Street platform, that platform was damp and musty!!
Tony
[1. You rode an R-42 on the "R"--I haven't seen those since the "RR"!! ]
Yep, I was lucky. I took the first R to 36th Street, to go back to take a look around Roosevelt Island Station, fortunately missed the train and the next one was R42. Now I had to ride it all the way to Canal for obvious reasons.
[3. Some BMT "Q" runs are pretty quick. ]
Haven't done Q yet.
Arti
It was an R-32 R. R-42s are only run on the J,M,Z,L lines. The last time an R-42 ventured onto the Broadway subway was during the split Willy B service, where CI yard was the main one for the southern portion of the M and a few Qs and Ns got them.
[It was an R-32 R]
Definitely not.
Arti
In that case, please provide us with car numbers if available. Also, how many cars were in the train? R-42s are arranged in eight-car sets (4 married pairs). It would take some doing to put two more cars on an eight-car set and get that set from East New York or Fresh Pond (or even Coney Island) to Jamaica, which is where the R trainsets are stored. (When R-32s operate in R service, they operate in ten-car sets.)
David
I have no answer to any of your guestions, as I'm not really interested in those things. It could have been R40 as they look alike, based on the pictures on this site.
Arti
R-40s don't run on the R, but they do run on the N. Also, the slanted version of the R-40 doesn't look like anything else in the system, at least from the front. Could it have been an N train?
David
[Also, the slanted version of the R-40 doesn't look like anything else in the system, at least from the front.]
That much I can tell.
[Could it have been an N train? ]
No. I don't distinguish visually similar looking cars, but I'm not stupid.
Arti
I'm not taking a hard line just for the sake of taking a hard line, and if I implied stupidity on the part of Arti or anyone else I apologize. I'm actually trying to help. If an R-42 train (or R-40) did in fact run in R service recently, this is major news in the community of New York subway railfans. However, there doesn't seem to be any proof or evidence of any kind that this happened.
Are there any other details about this trip we should know, that can be used to confirm that an R-42 (or R-40) train did in fact operate in R service?
David
Facts about the R I took yesterday.
1. From a distance it looked like (R68?) the cars on regular R service.
2. It had a railfan window.
3. It had a yellow bullet front destination sign.
4. It was an R and it went through 63rd Street and Broadway express tracks.
Arti
What color were the walls inside the train? (not a joke -- I'm serious)
David
Same as the slant R40's. Light yellow.
Arti
The interior of R-42 cars is stainless steel. The R-40M interior is tan (what some might see as a kind of yellow). Therefore, it COULD have been an R-40M. However, given that the R-40M cars are assigned to East New York Shop and are used on the J/Z, L, and M lines in trains of eight cars, it is extremely unlikely.
David
[However, given that the R-40M cars are assigned to East New York Shop and are used on the J/Z, L, and M lines in trains of eight cars, it is extremely unlikely. ]
I could have confused the color of the interior, as I was in a rush getting to the window, as the train was leaving the 36th Street station. So I can't say 100% that it was tan.
Arti
Were the seats gray or yellow/orange/red? And if they were gray, were they comfortable or did they give you a pain in the back?
What did the side route signs look like? Digital or roll? If roll, what sort?
[Were the seats gray or yellow/orange/red? And if they were gray, were they comfortable or did they give you a pain in the back? ]
I pretty sure that they were grey, but of course I diodn't sit on them as the train had a railfan window.
[What did the side route signs look like? Digital or roll? If roll, what sort? ]
I didn't pay attention but I think they were rollsigns. I was positioned near the entrance aboutt where the 3rd car stops as I didn't think to get a train with a window. From a distance the approaching train front looked like the regular R. Then when it was close I noticed the light through the storm door and quickly moved towards the front. Got in in the 2nd car and had to rush to the front as the train was about to enter the connector.
Arti
There's only one way to prove or disprove that a train of something other than R-46s and R-32s ran on the R on Saturday, given that nobody else here saw anything amiss and the description of the train isn't clear:
Does anyone here have access to Saturday's gap sheets from any terminal or tower along the R?
David
Again here are the facts I paid attention to:
1. The train had a color bullet front destination sign.
2. It had half width cab, allowing me to stand at the railfan window.
3. It had bench seats.
4. The train was R.
Are you trying to say I'm lying?
Touchy, touchy. Calm down! I am not suggesting that this story implies either stupidity (as mentioned in a previous post) or deceit.
All I am saying is that:
1. Other than this report, there is no evidence (so far) that anything other than trains of R-32 and R-46 cars ran on the R on Saturday
2. The information given to describe the train does not apply to R-42 cars (the original claim), if the interior was tan (as described)
3. The information given could apply to R-40 or R-40M cars (more closely R-40M, with the bulbous front, than R-40, with the slanted front)
4. If the description of the front end is discounted, the information could apply to R-32 cars (which run on the R on a regular basis) or R-38 cars (which do not)
5. By Arti's own admission, he was in such a hurry when he transferred to the train that he wasn't paying much attention to what he was riding
6. R-42 cars have not been documented to have run in R service in at least 13 years, R-40/R-40M cars longer than that.
I mean no disrespect. I bear no malice. I have nothing against Arti, whom I do not know except through his postings (and I respect him for his intelligent presentation, even when I do not agree with his opinions, as is my right). I'm simply curious as to whether a train of something other than R-32 and R-46 cars did, in fact, run in R service on Saturday, June 16, 2001, and I am asking whether:
1. Any other SubTalkers saw this (and perhaps wrote down car numbers and/or took pictures), or
2. Anyone with access to R train "gap sheets" (train register sheets) could look through them to determine whether such a train ran and, if it did, what the consist was.
Am I being unreasonable?
David
[1. Other than this report, there is no evidence (so far) that anything other than trains of R-32 and R-46 cars ran on the R on Saturday ]
It couldn't have been either, as R-32 has distinctive exterior and I wouldn't have missed that, R-46 has wide cab so I could not have been at the storm door.
[2. The information given to describe the train does not apply to R-42 cars (the original claim), if the interior was tan (as described) ]
That I unsure about, leaving R-40 another possibility.
[3. The information given could apply to R-40 or R-40M cars (more closely R-40M, with the bulbous front, than R-40, with the slanted front) ]
The train was positively not a slant R-40.
[4. If the description of the front end is discounted, the information could apply to R-32 cars (which run on the R on a regular basis) or R-38 cars (which do not) ]
I can't discount something I saw. For me that's a fact.
[5. By Arti's own admission, he was in such a hurry when he transferred to the train that he wasn't paying much attention to what he was riding ]
There are some things I paid attention, like the railfan window and the fact that the train's front looked like a regular R from a distance.
Wouldn't that leave 2 possibilities, either R-40 or R-42?
Arti
I'm researching the question and will respond when/if I have a definite answer as to whether a train of something other than R-32 or R-46 cars ran on the R on Saturday, July 16. I know that no R-42s or R-40Ms ran on the N on that date, because I was able to get that much of an answer so far.
David
Today I was given photocopies of the Train Consist Reports for 95th Street and Continental Avenue (the R line terminals) for Saturday, June 16, 2001. In addition to two four-car trainsets of R-46s for the midnight R shuttle, they show 24 eight-car R-46 trainsets and 5 10-car R-32 trainsets. There were no trainsets of any other car classes on the R line on Saturday, June 16, 2001.
David
Is it possible that there is a narrow cab R46 somwhere out there?
R32s sure have corrugated bodies and no bullet signs and that train had none.
These were the facts observed and unless I was hallucinating (hasn't happened before) what's the explanation?
Arti
All R-46s have either one full-width cab or no cab at all. A car with no cab cannot be leading a train in passenger service.
David
[All R-46s have either one full-width cab or no cab at all. A car with no cab cannot be leading a train in passenger service. ]
Oh yeah, they are the married pairs?
So now the question still stands, what the hell was it. If anything was rerouted would it have been recorded?
Arti
YOU WERE NOT ON AN
R-46 !!!!!!!
As to what you were on - I have some idea............
[As to what you were on - I have some idea............ ]
I don't do drugs. So give me an idea.
Arti
Well, there goes another great theory - shot to hell.
Most R-46s are in four-car sets: cab/trailer/trailer/cab. A few R-46s are in two-car sets: cab/cab. All of the cab cars have a cab only on the #1 end.
In addition to the document I mentioned, I also had a look at the "gap sheets" (train register sheets) for City Hall Tower. There were no movements involving R-40Ms or R-42s on Saturday, June 16, 2001. Several trains of slant R-40s were in service on the N line, as I have previously related.
David
[In addition to the document I mentioned, I also had a look at the "gap sheets" (train register sheets) for City Hall Tower. There were no movements involving R-40Ms or R-42s on Saturday, June 16, 2001. Several trains of slant R-40s were in service on the N line, as I have previously related. ]
It wasn't a slant, and the train had to pass City Hall, as I left it at Canal, would I've known that that's a such big deal I would have noted down the car number.
I still maintain that the train had a narrow cab, otherwise, how could I enjoy the railfan window. Also it had a bullet fron sign and I boarded it at 36th Street.
Arti
It is possible to look out the front window of an R-46 (or R-44 or R-68 or R-68A). Not directly, but there's a window into the cab that points right at the storm door window. The glass on the cab window is usually fuzzy, making the view far less than ideal.
David, one small correction about the R-46s. The B cars have motors and therefore can not technically be referred to as "trailers". As to the make-up of the R-46 fleet, it breaks down this way:
There are 181 4-car units in the A-B-B-A configuration.
There are 13 2-car units in the A-A configuration (Even cars #6208 - 6258) .
There is 1 2-car unit in the A-B configuration (Cars 6206 and 6207). Car 6207 has a hostler controller for operation during yard moves but could not be used as an operating end in service as there is no cab, no windshield, no seat, no headlights.
There is 1 2-car unit in the A-B configuration (Cars 6206 and 6207). Car 6207 has a hostler controller for operation during yard moves but could not be used as an operating end in service as there is no cab, no windshield, no seat, no headlights.
Where is this unit used?
The cars are most often found on the G line. They can be used in A-B-A-A configuration for E, F, or R service but for the most part they, like the other 13 2-car R-46 units, is usually consigned to the G service. G service currently calls for 12 6-car trains. One train is usually held for a gap train and one is usually in for maintenance. Hence, 6206-07 will almost always be found in G service.
Wow, I didn't realize there was still one car left with the hostler!
Car 6207 has a hostler controller for operation during yard moves but could not be used as an operating end in service as there is no cab, no windshield, no seat, no headlights.
Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but what's a hostler?
I just scrolled down.
Were the seats buckets and colored red, orange, and yellow? The interior of R46's is tan. As far as the window is concerned I notice most Jamaica yard T/O's do not cover up the window that looks out through the cab. Often you get a pretty good view through there.
I'm not stupid. I do know what narrow cab is BTW.
Seats were bench.
Arti
Wow, maybe it was an R-42. It's entirely possible, maybe during the week an R42 M train had to replace a broken-down R46 R train and was left there during the weekend.
Sorry for doubting you. Sure makes you wish you had a camera! :-)
Hmmm -- there were a few M's spotted running up the Culver line about two weeks ago. Is it possible they made it out to Queens via the F, sat out there, and got back "home" this past weekend via the R to Brooklyn and then up through Nassau?
It was an R-32 or an R-46. If it was anything else and you can supply proof, I will go to church next Sunday.
It had a railfan window and it didn't look like R32.
Arti
I saw a slant R40 on the N yesterday afternoon. More in my post (coming once I catch up from my trip).
Wow how the heck did an R42 wind up on the R line? R42's are only on the eastern division.
It could have been R40, I don't know how to differeciate them.
Arti
R-40Ms are also only on the eastern division.
The R-40s are the easiest to differentiate from other cars. They have the slant front as opposed to the regular one most other cars have.
1. I don't remember the original purpose for the local stubs, but the express ones used to be like that too. I have no idea why the MTA was stupid enough not to connect both the local and express tracks to 63rd, once trains start turning at 63rd it will no longer be possible to have easy run-through service.
They could switch south of 57th Street station.
Arti
If they're turning trains at 57th in the station (which they will with the Q), they will block anything trying to get through. If they turn past the station in the 63st tunnel, they still will block anything trying to get through.
2. The reason the Canal st express station has condensation is that the temperature there is very close to or even lower than the dewpoint, probably due to the fact that water pipes are nearly directly overhead (or something like that) forming natural air conditioning. As warmer air outside rushes in through the stairs or from the bridge, the moisture it carries condenses when it enters this cold area. Be grateful, the wetness keeps the bums away and when everything is wet it no longer smells like sh*t.
There's also the underground canal.
1. The express tracks connect to 63rd street tunnel. I guess the local tunnel extention is rarely used, maybe for layups?
2. Well it is cool down in the Canal street "bridge" station, but the leaks are from a water table in the area or something. If the water smells fishy, then you can just take a guess.
3. Well I'll have to check that one out.
4. Hey,hey,hey the Sea Beach is neglected by the MTA. The low ridership is the RESULT. There's plenty of single and multi-family homes in the area, which is becoming the second largest chinese community outside of Manhattan. Maybe if they put the N on the bridge and made it express in Manhattan riders in the area would take it instead of the B or soon W.
5. Take the brighton express or Q train. The line is known for speed in Brooklyn. Also the 4th ave express and Sea Beach line are more enjoyable with R32's or R40's than R68's.
[1. The express tracks connect to 63rd street tunnel. I guess the local tunnel extention is rarely used, maybe for layups? ]
The remains of the tracks didn't seem to connect to anything. Also the tunnel was probably some 50' long.
[2. Well it is cool down in the Canal street "bridge" station, but the leaks are from a water table in the area or something. If the water smells fishy, then you can just take a guess. ]
I don't think so, there was no really bad smell everything was covered with water.
[4. Hey,hey,hey the Sea Beach is neglected by the MTA. The low ridership is the RESULT. There's plenty of single and multi-family homes in the area, which is becoming the second largest chinese community outside of Manhattan. Maybe if they put the N on the bridge and made it express in Manhattan riders in the area would take it instead of the B or soon W. ]
Exactly, Sea beach seemed to have low density housing like you said, West End went through the areas of high rise buildings. In what way is N more neglected than the other lines, it sure has more TPH than B.
What surprises me is that B gets reduced to a shuttle at night when N keeps going. Probaly because the other leg of the B wouldn't be needed.
[Also the 4th ave express and Sea Beach line are more enjoyable with R32's or R40's than R68's. ]
It was quite enjoiable as I said before.
Arti
Having now traveled on BMT Eastern and Southern divisions, it really looks like the BMT was put togeter without any thought at all. Abandoned tunnels (City Hall, Canal St to west, 57th St local), ridiculous curves and wierdly spaced stations to name few.
How could anyone envision running rapid transit at all with all this?
Arti
Actually I ind it interesting that all the bits and pieces of RR that were built lets say roughly in the l880's-90's became the comprehensive system that later was built around them.
The original els did seem to have a plan..the southern section was a hodgepodge built by different developers which were later connected to els and subways and made the nice 4- leg system to Coney Island.
My biggest gripe with the BMT was that somebody seemed to have fun putting in too many curves..of course I know that's not a fact.
It worked..and does a good job years later...even if some lines could be faster.
The BMT was apparently built more for capacity than speed. I think this was why the IND was built the way it was, eliminating sharp curves, grade crossings and close stations.
[I think this was why the IND was built the way it was, eliminating sharp curves, grade crossings and close stations. ]
Isn't it time to eliminate some of those close stations, riding BMT is a pain if you use it as a means of transit.
Arti
I don't think it's politically possible to close any of them. Beverly Rd. and Cortelyou Rd. on the Brighton are ridiculously close and one could be closed. The hippos barely have time to reach 10MPH leaving one before arriving at the other.
They could close them for "rebuilding" and never open, or in Soviet style fabricate some "popular deman" to close them :-)
Arti
or in Soviet style fabricate some "popular deman" to close them
The Soviets operate their subway systems at 42 tph; which "popular demon" does NYCT use to max out below 30 tph.
Thank you ,
I resent anyone knocking the Soviet System, change is coming!!!!!
They were already rebuilt, about 5 years ago.
David
I was joking.
Arti
As a Brighton Line rider who occasionally uses the local service, I'm no big fan of having stations a block from each other. However, "reconstruction" isn't a valid reason for closing one or both stations, since it was just done. I was actually hoping someone here could find a reason that could stick :-)
David
Perhaps promising an ADA upgrade to other remaining stations. Maybe more local bus service.
Arti
Beverley Road has no local bus service. Cortelyou Road is served by the B-23 route, but that route is hardly what I'd call a "heavy hitter." The part of Ocean Avenue that parallels the Brighton Line in that area has no local bus service. On the other side is Coney Island Avenue, which has the B-68 route.
As to ADA, could be...keep 'em coming...
David
[Beverley Road has no local bus service. Cortelyou Road is served by the B-23 route, but that route is hardly what I'd call a "heavy hitter." The part of Ocean Avenue that parallels the Brighton Line in that area has no local bus service. On the other side is Coney Island Avenue, which has the B-68 route]
I don't mean more buses per se. Route additions, changes and other stuff like that what gives an impression of better service even more than more frequent service.
Arti
Probably the worst example of what you are talking about are the twin stations on the D line, Cortelyou Rd. and Beverly Rd. The rear of a train is barely out of one station when the lead car is entering the next. Now the $64,000 question - which one do you close? Either way, the TA, the MTA, the Mayor, & The Governor would all be accused of being:
[ ]Racist
[ ]Insensitive to the community
[ ] Putting $$$$ before people.
[ ] Union-busting.
[ ] Endangering the safety of the public.
By the time they closed that station, there'd be replacement bus service that would cost more to maintain that the service to the station. Let's not even get into skip-stop service. New Yorkers are too easily confused.
My choice is to intergrate the two station into one. Then there will have no accusion of anything. By the way, what is the distance between two stations(in feet pls)?
I don't know the distance, but it is about the same as Foster to Newkirk is at the Newkirk Av station, and the length of the platform extends from street to street. This should make your idea workable.
If I remember correctly, both the Beverly and Cortelyou station houses are on the south side of their respective streets. Build a smaller entrance/exit at Cortelyou on the north side (closing the historic south side house), and run the station from block to block. It could be renamed Beverly/Cortelyou or just Beverly.
[Now the $64,000 question - which one do you close? ]
Cortelyou and reroute B23 via Beverly.
Arti
TD, I think we're forgetting here that when the southern division lines were built, the trains were much shorter than they are now. For example, we know from the Malbone St. tragedy that a 5-car train was wrecked. Probably the cars were somewhere around 50' feet long, so in use in 1918 were 250' trains. Today the trains are 600' long. The stations have been lengthened considerably since 1918. Thus, back then, the north end of Cortelyou Rd. was farther from the south end of Beverley Rd. than it is now.
I have certainly noticed that the Beverly Rd. and the Cortelyou Rd. stations are very close together.
BMTJeff
Gotta ride the IRT to appreciate it ... and yes, the Broadway BMT might as well be a trolley line. After all, what made the mess of Broadway was the fact that until the 1940's, BMT ONLY cared about Park Row ... from there, you could get anywhere. Almost.
And the Nassau street loop worked until Chrystie Street. THAT is what killed the BMT as it's known today in Manhattan ...
To be honest, Chrystie St. made the southern division BMT better. The Nassau St. loop was only useful during rush hours getting people to/from their jobs in the financial district. Half the time, the Nassau St. bridge tracks carried no paying customers. Chrystie St. doubled capacity into the more needed destinations in midtown Manhattan without any significant loss of service into lower Manhattan. Too bad the bridge couldn't handle the load, leading to today's nightmare.
And the Nassau street loop worked until Chrystie Street. THAT is what killed the BMT as it's known today in Manhattan ...
I see what you mean; I was at the old Chambers St. station and I can imagine the incredible traffic that must have gone through there during the BMT's heyday. It's huge! Now it's rotting away and quite sad. The tracks down there are something else, I have to go look at the track maps because my head is still spinning from their complexity.
Dan
Shoulda seen it in its glory prior to 1967 ... busy as hell ...
In pre-unification days, Chambers St/Park Row was the BMTs main connection point to the IRT. This is where IRT riders from upper Manhattan and the Bronx connected to BMT trains to Brooklyn and, especially, to Coney Island. In those days, connections were available not only from the Lexington IRT subway (todays 4, 5 and 6 lines), but also from the 2nd and 3rd Ave. Els. Unfortunately, one had to pay another nickel for the ride on another company's lines (and, up until some time, yet a nickel more to ride all the way to Coney Island).
-- Ed Sachs
This is totally correct. If you look at a track map of the BMT (BRT) in 1911 (on the site bmt-lines.com) , you can see that the only stops of importance in manhattan were the Delancy and Park Row stops.
Then, you can take a peek at the
Whats the Post a New Response?
Ummm...J trainloco, I think you left out a quotation mark, causing your post to get seriously mangled...
He originally wrote: [unfortunately the link doesn't work]
Then, you can take a peek at the A HREF=http://www.bmt-lines.com1924BMTmap.jpg 1924 map. The connection to the Montague tunnel, as well as Fulton and Broad St. Stations, was not completed. Further, the Fulton El had no way of reaching the Broadway tracks, short of doing a reverse move in revenue service. Fulton and Brighton were the most used lines, and both had a way to reach Park Row. When the Nassau Loop was completed, every line had a way to get to Chambers St./Park Row.
The BMT was originally the BRT, and it appears as though their main concern was brookyln. Park Row could get you to the transfer point for the East Side lines. (Was Fulton St. (manhattan) open for transfers? If it was, then the 'Park Row line' also allowed West Side IRT transfers.)
>>Unfortunately, one had to pay another nickel for the ride on another company's lines (and, up until some time, yet a nickel more to ride all the way to Coney Island).<<
Ed, today i'd pay 5 nickels to ride on 1 line if I could.
Thanks. Hey, jrr7, how'd you get my post back?
Ed, thanks for that explanation. Now I understand the why and wherefore for the Chambers St.-Franklin Av. (via Coney Island) specials.
The BMT, for the most part, was a collection of private lines that were bought up and incorporated into one system. This accounts for most of the elevated/surface lines. The BMT Broadway line and Fourth Ave lines were modified from the old "triborough" plan of 1911.
The turnouts at 57th St were meant for a never built Upper West Side extension. The lower level at City Hall is a result of a change of plans in mid construction, as the original plan for the north side of the Manhattan Bridge (the Canal St subway) was abandoned. The original BRT plan was to have the locals coming from Queens and the Upper West Side terminate at the upper level, and the lower level would serve express trains continuing downtown and into Brooklyn via Montague St. As it is now, the locals were ramped down south of City Hall to use Montague St, and the expresses were diverted to the north side of the Mannhattan Bridge. Believe it or not, I think the modifications made the system better than it would have been.
There was alot of planning that went into the BMT; what I think you are seeing is the remnants of a still great system that has been cut back and merged with the IND.
The BMT Southern Division blended capacity with speed. How can one explain the Brighton express or the Sea Beach? Aside from the sharp turn at Ditmas Avenue, the Culver line was a straight shot until West 8th Street, one stop before Coney Island. The West End had basically two curves once it got out of Ninth Avenue - over 86th Street.
The BMT boasted some of the best subway rolling stock in the world during it's time with the Standards and D types. Hasn't the TA gone back to the 67 foot lenght for new B division rolling stock? Well, where did that come from, the BMT.
The Eastern Division is older; what you really have are older el's that were subsequently connected to the city via the Williamsburg Bridge. Even the Canarsie line is pretty basic when you compare it to the Southern Division, and I don't think the BMT had the money to make it more elaborate.
What about their flagship Broadway subway? Starting from DeCalb it like a labyrinth + all these afterthoughts.
Arti
I don't see any problems with the BMT Broadway Subway. Southbound expresses have to slow down around Prince Street to make that sharp left into Canal, but that's about it. If you are referring to below Canal Street, there is the S curve between City Hall and Rector, correct. But again, what is the big deal?
DeKalb is a mess because you have all the Southern division lines converging in and out. Compare it to the LIRR at Jamaica. It was only made worse with the Chrystie Street realignment.
It worked great way back when.........................
Going across the Manhattan Bridge it isn't a labyrinth. The first concept of an express taking a shorter route.
As for the afterthoughts, that would be a sign of MORE planning. The IND left a lot of stubs and extra stations to make it easier in case new lines were built. The IND never even wanted to use all of their stubs.
[As for the afterthoughts, that would be a sign of MORE planning. ]
Don't see how. How would you classify City Hall or the stubs at Canal St. bridge line?
Arti
I would classify them as anticipation of franchises that the
city never awarded.
The IND took the idea of head end signs on MUs from the BRT Triplex.
Having now traveled on BMT Eastern and Southern divisions, it really looks like the BMT was put togeter without any thought at all. Abandoned tunnels (City Hall, Canal St to west, 57th St local),
The components that made up the BRT/BMT were built to serve markets. The unused portions portions make as much sense (sometimes more sense) than the overbuilt-with-the-taxpayers=money IND.
City Hall LL was to be a turnback point for service to the north. 57th Street stubs were to connect to he 8th Avenue subway that the BMT hoped to land.
ridiculous curves
Private companies like the BRT, IRT and predecessors didn't have the abusive eminent domain power of the City. Curves were sometimes unavoidable.
and wierdly spaced stations to name few.
Stations were placed where customers wanted them. Beverley Road was built for Prospect Park South. Cortelyou Road was built since Avenue C/Cortelyou Rod was a busy commercial street with a streetcar line.
How could anyone envision running rapid transit at all with all this?
Worked real good for a long time.
The Eastern and Southern divisions were not planned from the outset.
They are the result of mergers of a half dozen independent companies
that pre-dated the BRT. Many of the curves and uncompleted
tunnels were the result of the City playing games with the
franchises. The City said "you put the tunnel HERE", which resulted
in a lot of streetcar-like turns. Later, when the city built the
IND lines, it told property owners "we're gonna put the tunnel HERE",
cutting across the grid to widen the curves.
cutting across the grid to widen the curves.
Even building new streets for that purpose (6th Avenue and Union Avenue extensions).
Wasn't 7th Ave extended for IRT?
Arti
And Elm Street (Lafayette Street) was rerouted.
Any others?
There is a storage car in the Flushing Yard which is visible from the LIRR.
Two qusetions:
1) How long has this car been here?
2) Is this the car which is pictured on the World's Fair Subway Map, in the original Blue and White colors?
That car is not 9306, someone renumbered an (R22?) that was dumped out there an cannibalized for parts. 9306 is an R-33 single that has been safe and sound in the NYC transit museum since 1970s.
In its original colors to boot. AFAIK it is not operational; over the years, it has served as a organ donor.
When the MB madness starts and the "B" and "D" become the Concourse short lines, will there really be a NEED to keep the rush hour "B"?? First of all, the "D" expresses are never that crowded, and they crawl on the express track until they reach 125 St. I dont think that there would be much of a difference if the "D" ran local even in the rush at 4-6 min headways--ridership is no longer at Queens Blvd. proportions!! I would think that the cars allocated to the "B" can be used for extra "C" trains to keep up the already sporadic CPW local service, not to mention maybe more trains for the sad, slow Broadway lines (esp. the new "W"). Oh, what a miserable day July 22 (??) will be. And the 6th Ave IND (which is used much more than the Broadway BMT) will be horriffic!!! Geez, can you imagine the postings we would read if the internet was around in late 1967 upon the opening of the Chrystie St connection???? Tony
Geez ... you MUST be from Brooklyn. Heh. The "D train" once it gets off the Brighton line and heads north into "civilised country" was always just as good as the A train, with the singular exception that during rush hour peak, it was a road runner in the Bronx as well.
Make the D train a LOCAL? I BITCH SLAP you, sir. :)
Well I'm gonna really miss that 6th ave dash between 34th and 4th.
You can visit the Central park dash from now on:)
CPW dash is good but for some reason it never sticks out in my mind. It's probably b/c I never get a railfan window for this ride and any enjoyment I get is spoiled when I have to go through 135 St at 15 mph.
It's just not the same without the R-10s on the A. Or, for that matter, the oldtimers on the D.
Did you mean the old timer trains or motormen??..ha ha..In my case both even if I was young then.. Here I sit reading about all the slow timers they put in and groan thinking what happened to what was a fast railroad.
I was referring to the R-1/9s. Sad to say it's not rapid transit the way we remember it. Leisurely transit is here to stay (sigh).
I remember the lovely R-4s that used to ply the "D" in the late 60s and early 70s; they had the anemic gait of the geriatric cars that they were; they were pretty pitiful. Even the fans turned slowly.
wayne
Must have been bad motors. The last prewar D train I ever rode on moved pretty swiftly along CPW. I am guessing it was in December of 1969. It had no headlights (most of the R-4s didn't), which made the CPW express dash much more interesting. Nothing like I-beams becoming silhouettes.
Well ... maybe if that "name a car" thing happens, we'll pay to have one named "Slow Boat to Bensonhurst" ... or "inchworm" ...
Did you mean the old timer trains or motormen??..
Or old grade timers?
People ran from the Broadway stations to the 6 Avenue Stations on the last flip. Now they'll be back.
It's not the end of the world as we know it. We survived the last flip, we'll survive this flip.
If anything, the Brooklyn riders benefit with the Broadway Express service. 3 stops to 34th from DeKalb via Broadway vs. 4 stops via Sixth.
"First of all, the "D" expresses are never that crowded, and they crawl on the express track until they reach 125 St. I dont think that there would be much of a difference if the "D" ran local even in the rush at 4-6 min headways"
Gee, Tony, I must have caught the D on a busy day. The other morning I was at 145th Street and every D coming south was packed from 6:15AM to around 8:00 AM. Perhaps you can tell me when you were there counting heads. Then again, every time I'm at 145th Street in the morning, I see the same thing. In the afternoon I also see many people who opt for the uptown crawl to Tremont Ave. and then switch to the downtown local to 174th St. I guess they don't realize that the D crawls. Hmmmmmmmmm, stupid people, I guess they don't know that the D should be empty.
Miserable?! I'm looking forward to it.
More people ride the IND than the BMT now because the IND has twice as much service. Watch the riders switch to the BMT en masse next month.
The BMT is faster than the 6th Avenue IND. (Some express that is! It skips a whole two stops.) The BMT has much better transfer opportunities than the IND. (Systemwide, every single transfer between the IND and another division, except 14th Street on the A/C/E, is crippled in some way -- either the transfer point is served on one of the lines by only the local or only the express or there's a long walk between the lines. The BMT has a good number of fully functional interdivisional transfers: Times Square, Union Square, and Atlantic/Pacific, for starters.)
>>More people ride the IND than the BMT now because the IND has twice as much service. Watch the riders switch to the BMT en masse next month.<<
I don't see how the BMT Broadway line could be faster. All that snaking around is just terrible. And, perhaps with the Manhattan Bridge in service it might be quick, but any broadway local will always be terribly slow. Plus, last time I checked, the BMT never goes farther north than 60th st. It was supposed to go uptown, but I guess that never materialized. And, people will only switch while the B/D are down, which is nothing for a BMT fan to whoop and holler about.
>>The BMT is faster than the 6th Avenue IND.<<
I'd like to know which BMT you're talking about. There might be a little shorter ride on the expresses from Canal/Grand to 57th/6th-57th/7th. But a train that serves all Broadway BMT stops? The F local and R locals. And, I doubt that the travel time will be so much shorter on BMT Broadway, especially since that 'measly short express run' on the IND has no major curves and is faster than the broadway runs.
>>(Systemwide, every single transfer between the IND and another division, except 14th Street on the A/C/E, is crippled in some way -- either the transfer point is served on one of the lines by only the local or only the express or there's a long walk between the lines. The BMT has a good number of fully functional interdivisional transfers: Times Square, Union Square, and Atlantic/Pacific, for starters.)<<
Broadway-Nassau (A,C,2,3,4,5,J,M,Z)
Chambers St. (A,C,E,2,3)
34th St. (B,D,F,N,Q,R)
There's 3 examples that meet your criteria for "functional" transfer. Plus, your whole theory that a long walk makes a transfer unfunctional (to think that the TA actually would ask people to walk up a few steps or down a corridor! The nerve!) is completely untrue. the 42nd st transfer from the A to the Times Sq. complex gets traffic. Another one is B'way East New York. Crippled indeed.
I don't see how the BMT Broadway line could be faster. All that snaking around is just terrible.
Where is there snaking on the express? Yes, there's a single curve at Canal (I don't remember how sharp it is), but the IND snakes onto and off of 53rd. The BMT local has two S-curves (between City Hall and Cortlandt and between Lawrence and DeKalb), but why are you bringing up the local when all the changes will be on the two expresses? (Besides, the BMT local only loses a minute or so due to the curves. It loses most of its time because it serves a region of Manhattan bypassed by the express and by all 6th Avenue service.)
And, perhaps with the Manhattan Bridge in service it might be quick, but any broadway local will always be terribly slow.
So? The Q and W will both be running express.
Plus, last time I checked, the BMT never goes farther north than 60th st. It was supposed to go uptown, but I guess that never materialized.
Again: so? The IRT has always been the far more popular way uptown, anyway, and the BMT has far better transfer points to the IRT than does the IND.
Not that many people commute between Brooklyn and points north of 60th Street anyway.
And, people will only switch while the B/D are down, which is nothing for a BMT fan to whoop and holler about.
(If anything, I'm an IRT fan. But I do think the IND was designed explicitly to not mesh well with the existing systems, and it shows.)
People will ride whichever line takes them where they need to go. Now, for many Brooklyn residents, it's the IND. In a month, it'll be the BMT. If both were available, I have no idea what the relative loads would be (and neither do you).
I'd like to know which BMT you're talking about. There might be a little shorter ride on the expresses from Canal/Grand to 57th/6th-57th/7th. But a train that serves all Broadway BMT stops? The F local and R locals.
Who cares about the F and R? They're not being touched (until November). If anything, the changes will give R riders a faster ride since they'll have an express at their disposal. The 6th Avenue express isn't useful to through F riders since it goes to diverges from the F at either end of Midtown.
And, I doubt that the travel time will be so much shorter on BMT Broadway, especially since that 'measly short express run' on the IND has no major curves and is faster than the broadway runs.
The IND has two sharp curves at 53rd Street. The BMT express has one curve at Canal Street.
The IND express stops seven times between 59th and DeKalb (exclusive). The BMT express stops four or five times (Q vs. W) between 57th and DeKalb.
Broadway-Nassau (A,C,2,3,4,5,J,M,Z)
Not served by the 1/9, which diverges two stops back, the 6, which terminates one stop back, or the E, which terminates one stop back.
Chambers St. (A,C,E,2,3)
Not served by the 1/9, which diverges one stop back. Also, northbound local passengers on the IND are forced to pick a platform in advance.
34th St. (B,D,F,N,Q,R)
You got me there.
There's 3 examples that meet your criteria for "functional" transfer. Plus, your whole theory that a long walk makes a transfer unfunctional (to think that the TA actually would ask people to walk up a few steps or down a corridor! The nerve!) is completely untrue. the 42nd st transfer from the A to the Times Sq. complex gets traffic. Another one is B'way East New York. Crippled indeed.
I never said they weren't used! I said they weren't fully functional. People will use whatever transfers they need to get where they're going, but with more service on the BMT, fewer people will need to use long transfer passageways and fewer people will need to switch between express and local solely to reach a transfer point.
>>People will ride whichever line takes them where they need to go. Now, for many Brooklyn residents, it's the IND. In a month, it'll be the BMT. If both were available, I have no idea what the relative loads would be (and neither do you).<<
I find that amusing. Perhaps you do not recall, but there have been periods of time where BOTH sides of the bridge were open. In case you don't know the 6th av. tracks got more service on them. Wonder why that is?
>>Who cares about the F and R? They're not being touched (until November). If anything, the changes will give R riders a faster ride since they'll have an express at their disposal. The 6th Avenue express isn't useful to through F riders since it goes to diverges from the F at either end of Midtown.<<
You evidently don't every ride the 6th av. trunk line much do you?
At B'way Lafayette, if an express is pulling in while a local is there, you can watch the passengers run across to the expresses. But, the 6th av express doesn't much get used by F riders.
I also know plenty of people who can take either the F or the D home. But of course, those people don't count. It has to be people who ride to a station that is a transfer point, right?
>>The IND has two sharp curves at 53rd Street. The BMT express has one curve at Canal Street. <<
>>The IND express stops seven times between 59th and DeKalb (exclusive). The BMT express stops four or five times (Q vs. W) between 57th and DeKalb.<<
I find it amusing how you also count the turn-off for the 6th av lines. Keep in mind you yourself acknowledged that few people from BK are riding that far.
>>Not served by the 1/9, which diverges two stops back, the 6, which terminates one stop back, or the E, which terminates one stop back.<<
Yes, the 1/9 does diverge. However, there are lots more people riding the expresses than the locals. Plus, I didn't name all of them. And, you are being silly in saying this: Pacific/ Atlantic is Disqualified by this measure. A number of others are disqualified too. Really, if the line has diverged, that means it's serving another community.
>>I said they weren't fully functional.<<
I'd like you to define that for me.
Really, not all people who ride the subways are looking to transfer to another one. This is why 6th av generally gets more service than Broadway. The Above ground transfers to the office building line. People from brooklyn who want the 2,3,4,5 lines take them at Pacific, which either Broadway or 6th av has no control over. People who want the 8th av lines take the 6th av to W4th. That's plain and simple. All these in manhattan xfers are really not that necessary (but still useful).
Only one thought even if I'm happy to see some services back where they were in my youth: you ask "why were the more services to 6th ave when both sides of the bridge were in service?"
Because that's the way the powers that be set things up with the Chrystie St. service changes. If a lot of passengers had their way, more Broadway service would have been...especially the Brighton express. But then people get used to what is now and get upset about changes...for the great majority it makes little difference even if they don't want to admit it..some will gain a few minutes some will lose.But most aren't happy unless they're b----ing.
I find that amusing. Perhaps you do not recall, but there have been periods of time where BOTH sides of the bridge were open. In case you don't know the 6th av. tracks got more service on them. Wonder why that is?
The bridge led to both 6th Avenue and Broadway for only twenty years or so. Initially, the TA boosted service on the new connection because it was new. After that, why bother making changes and confusing everyone?
You evidently don't every ride the 6th av. trunk line much do you?
Well, I do avoid it if I can help it, since it's a pain to get to. (I'm an Upper West Sider on the IRT.) But I was on it yesterday, if that helps.
At B'way Lafayette, if an express is pulling in while a local is there, you can watch the passengers run across to the expresses. But, the 6th av express doesn't much get used by F riders.
People run across the platform to make transfers all over the place. I can assure you that, in this case, those F passengers are transferring to the B/D/Q for good. There's simply no point transferring to the express, bypassing two stops, and transferring back to the (very same) local.
(Maybe you misread what I wrote before: that the 6th Avenue express isn't useful to through F riders -- i.e., those traveling between points south of B-L and north (east) of 47-50. My point was that there's no reason to bring the F into the discussion as F riders aren't affected by the July 22 changes.)
I also know plenty of people who can take either the F or the D home. But of course, those people don't count. It has to be people who ride to a station that is a transfer point, right?
Oh, I'm sure they exist, but the D and F are far enough apart in most of Brooklyn that I doubt there are terribly many who will gladly take whichever pulls in first. (For them, yes, this is an inconvenience.) I'd say there are fewer of them than there are passengers who transfer at Times Square each day. There are also probably fewer of them than of those who can use the B or the N.
I find it amusing how you also count the turn-off for the 6th av lines. Keep in mind you yourself acknowledged that few people from BK are riding that far.
I'm sorry, I must have forgotten that the world revolves around Brooklyn.
Yes, the 1/9 does diverge. However, there are lots more people riding the expresses than the locals.
Actually, both the 1/9 and the 2/3 see impressive crowds.
Plus, I didn't name all of them.
Yes you did. My point was that, of all the transfer points between IND lines and those on the other divisions, all but a handful either require a long walk or meet only the local or only the express on one of the lines.
To see the IND's approach, just look at downtown Brooklyn. Three IND lines run through yet they manage to have an impressive zero transfer points to the BMT or IRT. If you're on the A in the Rockaways and you need to get to a stop on, say, the West End line, your choices are (a) A to W4(!) and B back to Brooklyn; (b) A to Nostrand, C to Lafayette, pay another fare, B to wherever; (c) A to Nostrand, C to Franklin, S to Prospect Park, D/Q to Atlantic, B to wherever; (d) A to Nostrand, C to Franklin, S to Prospect Park, D to Stillwell, B to wherever; (e) A to Jay (or A to Hoyt and G to Smith-9th), F to 4th Avenue, R to 36th, B to wherever. Except during the M's limited hours on the West End, it's impossible to make this trip on one fare without either going through Manhattan or riding four or five trains. Had the IND worked with the system instead of against it, Lafayette would have been an express station and there would have been a huge Pacific-Atlantic-Lafayette-Fulton transfer point (or, perhaps, the A/C and G would have met near Atlantic rather than over at Hoyt).
And, you are being silly in saying this: Pacific/ Atlantic is Disqualified by this measure. A number of others are disqualified too. Really, if the line has diverged, that means it's serving another community.I think you've answered your own question. The 1/9 and 6 aren't the local versions of the 2/3 and 4/5 in Brooklyn. However, I'd be hard-pressed to say that the 1/9 serves a different community from the 2/3 at Park Place (it's a block away) or that the 6 serves a different community from the 4/5 at Fulton (it's a few blocks away).
I'd like you to define that [fully functional] for me.
I did, earlier in the thread. I'm using the term to refer to an interdivisional transfer point that doesn't involve a long walk and isn't bypassed or "near-missed" by either the local or the express on one of the lines. There are many between IRT and BMT. There are few between IND and anything else. (There is arguably one -- that's it, just one -- between IND and IRT.)
Really, not all people who ride the subways are looking to transfer to another one.
I never said they were, but many do need to transfer.
This is why 6th av generally gets more service than Broadway.
You know that's not the case. The bridge (currently) only connects to 6th Avenue, so of course 6th Avenue gets more service than Broadway.
The Above ground transfers to the office building line.
Oh, is that your entire point? That the people who work on 6th Avenue will have to walk a block or two? Really, I don't think that's a big deal -- don't forget that lots of people work on Broadway, too!
Let's compare station-by-station, from 57th on down:
57: One avenue block away. On 6th, only served by the Q; on 7th, will be served by N/Q/Q/R/W.
47-50: One avenue block away. Q passengers will have to transfer across the platform at 42nd.
42: One avenue block away.
34: Same station.
(28: Only served by the local on Broadway. Not served at all on 6th.)
(23: One avenue block away. Only served by the local on Broadway and on 6th.)
(14: Two avenue blocks away, or transfer to the L. Only served by the local on 6th.)
W4: Okay, this is an appreciable walk. But it's not in much of a business area -- 8th on the N/R is better located.
B-L: Prince is a few blocks away. Only served by the local on Broadway.
Really, this isn't a big deal.
People from brooklyn who want the 2,3,4,5 lines take them at Pacific, which either Broadway or 6th av has no control over.
Well, now they do -- and transfer to a 1/9 or a 6 if they need a local station. (The only transfer point to the 1/9 is up at 59th, and the Q doesn't even go there; the only transfer point to the 6 is at B-L, and there's no transfer to or from the uptown 6.) Soon they'll have the option of transferring at Union Square or Times Square. I can't time it yet, but I'd guess that transferring in Manhattan is faster -- A/P to 14th is 2-3 stops via BMT (bridge/express) or 7 via IRT; A/P to 42nd is 4-5 stops via BMT or 11 via IRT.
There are THREE "S" curves on the Broadway ("N" and "R") line:
1. between Lawrence and COURT (the curve between Lawrence and DeKalb is a single 50degree curve with a rather tight radius)
2. between Whitehall and Rector (there is a couple of car lengths between the curve sections)
3. between Cortlandt and City Hall, the best known and the tightest one in the system.
Northbound passengers also get a reverse curve just north of City Hall, which is pretty abrupt.
wayne
Fine, but those are all on the local. Except for the curve at Canal onto the bridge (does anyone here remember how sharp it is?), the BMT is a straight shot down the express tracks into Brooklyn.
I was thinking that if double letters were still arround, the depleted B train would be renumbered the DD. And of course the V would be the FF.
I wonder if they're still going to call the B and D "Sixth Avenue Express".
:-) Andrew
In the late 80s, it still said "Ave. of the Americas Express" on the R32s, etc...
Hi all,
Next Thursday, I have a day off (hopefully since I've been working 6 days a week for so long now...I wanted to take that time to update NYC Subway map(s) since I understand W will run sometimes next month.
I called NYCT and sent a letter requesting updated subway map, none ever came! if anyone is willing to grab the most recent subway map and send it my way, would be appreicated (or at least if someone has it right now, list any changes to me via email).
I'd like to know if anyone wants time-based maps or a regular map for this site? (I ditched time-based map due to lack of time to update these maps).
Let me know via e-mail (adler@nycsubway.org with subject "NYC Subway Map) any other subjects will be deleted since I get hundreds of email daily!)
Thank you,
Michael Adler
The W will run on the N( Broadway) Express Tracks over the bridge. In Queens the train will run on teh center track of the N line to Manhattan in the AM and from Manhattan in the PM. On weekends it will end at pacific Street in Brooklyn.
If you'll e-mail me, off-site, I'll send you the 3/01 version which is the latest plus the manhattan bridge flip customer brochure.
The brochure is available at any station and booth.
I will send it to Michael sinc ehe is out-of-area
Don't forget that the W will STOP at 49th Street.
Are you also going to update the "fantasy" map? I have ideas for that. Well, who doesn't?
:-) Andrew
With the MB service changes, wouldn't it make more sense to keep W running all the time and reduce the service on N overnight and weekends.
1. W seems to serve areas with greater population density.
2. W serves a more direct route bypassing Downtown Manhattan where there's lesser need during those times anyway.
Arti
How about 3. The route of the W will have so much track work on it, at least at the beginning, that it wouldn't be able to run much on weekends anyway, and so what would be the point of telling people it'll be there when it won't?
BTW, 3. is the correct answer.
David
[The route of the W will have so much track work on it, at least at the beginning, that it wouldn't be able to run much on weekends anyway, and so what would be the point of telling people it'll be there when it won't? ]
And how can Q run in that case?
Arti
Much easier to shuffle people around when they're all looking for the same thing. If everyone needs the Q and it's been rerouted, much easier than if people are looking for both Q and W.
Also, what if the bridge is closed completely on weekends and nights for a while? The Q would be rerouted via Montague and the W would not be affected. If the W were expected to run, it would be truncated anyway.
What if a single direction of the Montague were closed? N and R would share with Q over the bridge, and W would be truncated. Or N and W would share (which are nearly identical services) and the R would be truncated, while the E and F would run local in Queens (or have to xfer from the G to get to Manhattan).
The B'wy line local stations still need to be renovated, weekends trains will probably be sent express. Q, W, N, and R cannot share, once again it's either the W or R that gets cut.
All of your arguments could be appplied to N in a similar manner. But it seems to me that trunkating N would inconvenience less people.
Arti
Maybe so, but there are political considerations as well. Either N or W service has to be truncated on weekends to facilitate construction work. N service has been relegated to the local tracks on Broadway and the Montague Street Tunnel for many years because of the continuing Manhattan Bridge reconstruction. It was deemed politically untenable to cut the line off on weekends altogether.
David
Wouldn't trunkating a line with less customers be politically easyer to do?
Arti
In a rational world, yes. But in New York City in 2001, whoever yells loudest gets heard.
David
I think they haven't started yelling yet. Most of the yellers don't probably realize whats going to happen.
But now back to the beginning, do you think that trunkating N instead of W would be a better plan.
Arti
Strictly by the numbers (at least on the southern end), yes, I'd say that the N would be the choice for truncation over the W on weekends. However, while I have been told that construction work would be the reason for truncation, I haven't been told WHERE that construction would be. The West End Line (the southern end of the W) is still having signal work done; maybe that's at least part of it.
David
[However, while I have been told that construction work would be the reason for truncation, I haven't been told WHERE that construction would be. ]
I can't see a place where it could possibly do that. Let's not forget that they could route W to 4th Ave local.
[The West End Line (the southern end of the W) is still having signal work done; maybe that's at least part of it. ]
But how would that effect it north of Pacific Street?
Arti
It wouldn't, which leads me to believe that there is other construction, which puts me back where I started. One of the services (N, Q, or W) has to be truncated. The W was picked. Don't like/understand the reasoning? Write to NYCT and ask.
David
Here's what I think (this is merely a stab in the dark here).
The Broadway BMT trunk line does not have enough weekend traffic for 4 lines. Running 4 lines on broadway would be a waste of money. So, you should terminate at least 1 line (3 lines are enough for weekends.) in brooklyn. You can't do this to the Q. (where would it stop at?)This leaves N & W. The N has been the Astoria train for years, and the W is going there on weekdays only. The W is express, and they don't need another express. So, they run the N train.
Some have stated that the West End gets more service than Sea Beach, and should thus run into manhattan on weekdays. However, the Sea Beach and West End are very close together, and at some points, there really is little difference in travel time. I think that the present B gets more service than the present N because the 6th av. lines have nore riders than the broadway line. With the W not running people will either 'discover' that they can take the N, or they'll get up and transfer at Pacific. This isn't a big deal. It's a cross-platform transfer.
Shortening the W is better. Why? Because the W cuts off the 4th ave line first, so those riders can transfer from a N or R. Now if we cut back the N to 59th street, N riders would have only one connection, the R.
[Now if we cut back the N to 59th street, N riders would have only one connection, the R. ]
Nothing prohibits running N to Pacific St.
Arti
Local or express?
If it runs local, it can't turn at Pacific.
If it runs express (and the W takes up the slack by running local), everyone who's used to the long-time weekend standard of N local and B express will be confused.
Also, truncating the N (assuming everything else is running where it's supposed to run) would yield inadequate service to lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn.
[Also, truncating the N (assuming everything else is running where it's supposed to run) would yield inadequate service to lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn.]
But at those timmes is there a need for that?
Arti
Yes. Lower Manhattan isn't as dead on weekends as some here would make it out to be. Already, the M is a shuttle and the J terminates at Chambers, and, of course, the other lines operate less frequently than on weekdays. I think removing the N would be a mistake.
It will not inconvenience less people. Astoria riders and Sea Beach riders would both be inconvenienced. The N would not simply have to be truncated, but split into two. Pain in the ass for crews and passengers alike. Plus, the N has been running on Broadway since before I was born, the W will be a new line, N has seniority!
Whenever the 60th st tube was closed (before 63st), the R became a shuttle and the N ran to 57th/7th. When the Montague is closed, the R turns at 34th and the N goes to Canal, the R in the south is reduced to a shuttle while the N in the south turns all the way at Queensbridge or 57/6th. The N is given the higher priority at all GOs.
[It will not inconvenience less people. Astoria riders and Sea Beach riders would both be inconvenienced. The N would not simply have to be truncated, but split into two. Pain in the ass for crews and passengers alike.]
Now having W going to Astoria that wouldn't be the case. BTW that was my original point of the post.
[Plus, the N has been running on Broadway since before I was born, the W will be a new line, N has seniority!]
I thought only T/Os had seniority.
Arti
Seniority my ass. If the TA can screw the Sea Beach they would do so in a second. They have done it time and again. Only a housecleaning of that ratpack will enable the Sea Beach to get a fair shake.
David, how about 4. Keeping things as simple as possible for the riding public. The N is a 24/7 local, now and after 22 July. It would be more difficult for most of the riding public to get used to the idea that the B, or W, runs express at some times, local at other times, and that the N runs its entire route sometimes, and truncated at others. This is more confusing than simply, the B, or W, runs its entire route sometimes and is truncated at other times. Yes, the West End has more passengers than the Sea Beach and thus the latter should be the truncated line. But the TA policy has been to keep things simple (same reason why the 16/5 Q runs as the express in Brooklyn whilst the 24/7 D runs as the local). Also, with regards to the B, N, and R lines, the TA probably saves money by having the N being the only through service at night, with R and B (W) passengers having to change only once: if the B ran, either both the N and R would have to run to 36th St., or N or R riders would be subjected to two shuttle transfers.
Good reason. Not the official one, which is #3 (and I'm trying to find out where the construction work will be), but a good reason nonetheless.
David
Gee, I thought this post was about the Norfolk & Western.........
so how was the trip? I wish i could have gone. As a museum docent, i ride for free! Hopefully they will run another Nostalgia train this year, or is it just one a year?....
The trip was good, but the rain was coming down a bit on the moderate side. It did not put a lid on anyone's spirit, though. One question - the test track in Broad Channel. Why did the TA waste money building that, when there is plenty of unused track ( two, in fact ) from the beginning of the Rockaway line in Queens just before Aqueduct Station down to just past Howard Beach? No need to widen the right of way, no need to rebuild the fence, just replace the old rotten ties, replace the rail ( which is probably shelled by now anyway ) and presto - two new test tracks with working signals on them! Who was out there looking this over when the plans were drawn up? You cannot say that the local inhabitants would not want the test track in their backyard, because they already have the subway line in their backyard. In case the test track is needed because of a GO in the area involving the outer tracks, no problem just use them. What gives at 370 Jay anyway?
>"What gives at 370 Jay anyway?"<
That is a question that has plagued scientists for decades.
>"What gives at 370 Jay anyway?"<
That is a question that has plagued scientists for decades.
Recent studies have shown that the building housing the MTA's headquarters has a structural defect which allows all of the common sense to leak out of the building onto the sidewalk. Several "studies" have been commissioned to examine possible options for fixing the problem, at a cost of $6.2 billion. Estimates project that the solution will be complete by 2014.
Dan
The Pres. office is on the 13th floor ... realy it is ... enough said?
Mr t__:^)
He's a lucky man.:-)
xx
They want to test the cars on a straight, level, long track. The right of way you suggest does not have those attributes.
The area from south of Howard Beach to the North Channel Bridge is not long enough for the TA purposes, + it is around a slight curve. Additionally, those middle tracks are needed to turn trains south of Howard Beach in case of a service disruption or GO in the Rockaways.
OK, but how about the unused express tracks on the Sea Beach? There are two of them there, and in the past I know that they were used to test the R-44s when they were new. One of those tracks was or is used for assembling ribbon rail for MofW trains, but the other is not used for anything. I bet there are a few other locations in the system which are unused, but could be used for test purposes. I know that the A division has some tracks, like the Dyre Ave. line, but B division equipment cannot get there, so that is out. How about it?
Anyway, the test track is already in place, so all I can do is make comments. Concrete ties would have made sense for the entire line, given the location in a wetland.
The Dyre Avenue Line center tracks have recently been used to test R-142 cars.
The Sea Beach Line has only one express track (the former northbound express) in service, numbered E3/4. It has bidirectional signaling. The other track has been disconnected.
David
OK, that ends one idea. By the way, those middle tracks between Howard Beach and the area north of Aqueduct Station could use some work, because if an emergency situation arises and they need to be used, and then a rail breaks because of neglect, the stuff will really hit the fan. An ounce of prevention goes a long way to prevent headaches in the future.
IF there ever is a disruption on the Lefferts leg, they turn those As at Howard Beach.
are you talking about the old LIRR ROcaway Branch Tracks? Isnt that area structurally unsafe for a ROW? I heard this somewhere before. 370 aint as stupid as one might think, Lazy, dont get me started.
Isn't it 170 Livingston?
No, it's 2 locations in Brooklyn one is 370 Jay St, the other is 130 Livingston.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Hopefully they will run another Nostalgia train this year, or is it just one a year"
Two more runs this year........July 15th and 29th
Bill "Newkirk"
Give my regards to those gentle behemoths if you go on either of those two other trips.
I take it from prior posts here that no one is sure if riding the loop is permissible or not so... what happens if you stay on the southbound 6 at Brooklyn Bridge to ride the city hall loop? Do they check all the cars before they pull out? Should you play deaf? What's the best car to see the old station from anyway? The front car? Do they check that one? Just planning my strategy. Thanks
I would think the front car would be the best, but since you'd be right by the operator he might open his door and see you and make you get off. So, maybe you should try the last car and look out the back window, in case they don't go all the way to the end of the train when they check for people still on-board.
According to SubTalkers who are NYCTA employees, City Hall loop is mainline track. Here's my strategy. It hasn't failed yet.
Do any trains every use it? If so which ones? I'd like to do that one too. I like pushing the envelope. Thanks
Yes: the 4/5 trains that turn around off-hours at Bowling Green. However that track is definitely not mainline track so unless you get a 2/3 on some very strange GO, it’s unlikely that you will get to ride it without some subterfuge (not recommended).
I've been on both loops with no problems. More than once on each. All you have to do is acknowledge to the T/O that you know this is the last stop and'd like to see the platform or station.
You want to see the inner loop station? Take the 1 to South Ferry, get off the train and let it depart. Now you have between 3 and 16 minutes to look at the inner loop station (depending on time of day) before the next arrival.
That would be one truly strange -- and useless -- GO. The inner loop only connects to the 4/5. Any 2/3 that goes through it wound end up right back where it came from, at Bowling Green.
That infamous GO has 2 trains switching to the outer loop after Bowling Green and running up the 1/9.
JRR4:
You seem to be new at posting, but you have picked up the annoying habit of changing the title to a thread without referencing the old thread. It is helpful to all if you reference the old thread, as I have done with this message, and when replying to some particular part of the previous message, quote it so it will not be necessary to reload the previous message to make sense of the new message.
Enjoy using Sub Talk.
Tom
Sorry Tom, My browser brings up the threads in a tree structure so I know where they started and end. I've always changed the subject so the reader knows whether or not to drill in. Sorry for the inconvenience.
>>> My browser brings up the threads in a tree structure so I know where they started and end. I've always changed the subject so the reader knows whether or not to drill in. <<<
JRR4;
You might want to check out the "Change Display Style/Killfile" area at the top of the index to see the alternate ways to view the index. I too use the tree structure (Threads) when I have been away from the board for a day or two, but when I am working on my computer for a lengthy time, I might take a break from what I am doing about once every two hours to check for new messages. When I do that I use the chronological order so all the new messages will be together.
I certainly agree with the idea of changing the heading when a thread changes direction, but the reference to the old thread is helpful to let the reader know it is a change of direction rather than a brand new thread.
Tom
Either:
ask the T/O
-or - play "dumb tourist in the last car." Sit quietly in a corner seat in an empty car with a walkman on. If MTA personnel tells you it's the last stop, get off - they only check trains if they're yard-bound (AM rush). If anyone else does, pretend you can't hear them.
Don't use a 4 train, they almost always go to a yard after terminating there.
I just rode it today. I hopped a downton 5 from 14th to Brooklyn Bridge and got off. When the first 6 train pulled in heading downtown I boarded and sat down. The C/R said "Last stop, everyone off!" repeatedly, but I ignored him and the doors closed. The T/O either didn't see me (the train was a full-width cab R-62A) or didn't mind my being there. There was a couple in the second car of the train and they stayed on too.
Dan
This is what happened onfriday when I rode the loop, the train pulled up (R-142)
Me: Is the loop mainline
C/R: what?
Me: is it mainline
C/R: I don't know
Me: i heard from a TSS its mainline, anyways, can we ride the loop?
C/R: oh you guys want to see the old city hall? sure go ahead, you can ride along
Me: thanks, its just that I heard its mainline
C/R: I dunno I havent heard nothing yet
Me: thanks a lot.
If this dont go this way just stay onthe train, no one EVER gets out and checks the damn cars, let the C/R shout about getting off the train, Ignore it, if a Police officer or a MTA employee comes up to you ( NO CHANCE OF THIS HAPPENING AT ALL IGNORE THIS) just play stupid, thats what a C/R once told me once, before this whole deal became mainline again, "..play stupid...".
Railfans make everything complicated, I took the liberty of taking a friend along and walk to City hall station on the track, big F*cking whoop! just go anywhere you want until you're told not to, then ignore them, thats the way of the Urban explorer, how else could one see 18th St and 91st abandoned stations.
Haha! That was mighty good fun, indeed.
My first time on an R-142A, when they were still in test mode, I (illegally) stayed on through the loop.
The T/O didn't notice or care. I got a bit nervous when two or three guys with clipboards entered the car, but they just confirmed that I knew where I was going and continued on their merry task of writing stuff down. Perhaps I should have pointed out to them that the signs claimed we were at the last stop until they were reset at Canal, except in the second car, which seemed to have gotten stuck at Spring with no help from the reset -- when I got off at Grand Central, that one car still claimed to be going to Brooklyn Bridge.
I rode it on Saturday and the C/R was very nice, I mentioned to him that some people I know that work for the TA said that it is now mainline track and is ok, but his response was "Its never ok, I just don't mind it." His strategy is to wait by the northend of the platform and when the train comes in hop on the last car when the C/R looks in the other direction, if you are on the southend there is the tower and the cameras that the C/R looks at. Thats right from the mouth of a C/R.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I wan't to know who likes railfan windows?
You’re talking to the wrong crowd here! Will the person who doesn’t like railfan windows please stand up?!
I DON'T LIKE RAILFAN WINDOWS.
And I'm happy to say that.
Do you hate any form of transportation?
Do you hate any form of thought?
@ i know you hate railfan windows !!
I hate you.
Well If you all don't like railfan windows then visit singapore.
Even all railways in Hong Kong does not have railfan windows. But you can get it on a tram. (Well, it is the exit of the tram. Therefore you cannot stand right in front of it or you will block others way.:P)
@ remind me not to go there !! LOL !!
Don't go there, Salaam!!
SF
thank you SF !! I will not go there ( but i will shoot this fall ) october-november, on any redbird !!!
I get the idea that even people who aren't railfans enjoy the view from a railfan window.
I think Salaam from LA strongly dislikes railfan windows :)
"" WRONG DINOSAUR BREATH "" ( johnnie carson ) .....LOL !!!
I like them because I enjoy the signal formations, sometimes the view, the movement of the train its just fun.I also see all people of all races ages and genders enjoy them also.I'd miss the window I think its part of New York looking out the window of a subway train.I just like to see other trains passing watching them go over interlockings,Sometimes you feel like you are driving the train.
Miss them? head to boston they have railfan windows on Evey train line.
Those damm railfan windows...it's because of them that i'm a traction nut...it's the thrill of seeing the I R T experss race through the subway tunnels,the illusion of going 70 miles per hour because of the i beams throughout the system wizzing by,those damm railfan windows there like a magnet.......thats why i love em.
You really need to head to singapore.
I do! I do!
...I rarely ever use the railfan window. Even when I'm just subfanning, I prefer the view from the side.
That's just me, of course.
:-) Andrew
[...I rarely ever use the railfan window. Even when I'm just subfanning, I prefer the view from the side. ]
IMO you can see so much more from the railfan window.
Arti
IMO you can see so much more from the railfan window.
Much more of the track. A better view of stations and the surrounding area (the latter only when elevated) is from the side.
I don't like underground lines. One doesn't know what he's going through.
I railfan window, therefore I am.
I do, I do.
It has been 86 years since the opening day of BRT service via West End terminal, the new grade seperated Sea Beach, 4th Avenue, Manhattan Bridge and Chambers Street Subway, on June 15, 1915.
I am surprised no one mentioned it here!
Hmmm .... I thought that the 4th Avenue subway, providing service to Coney Island via the Sea Beach line, opened June 22nd, 1915.
--Mark
Hmmm. that's why no one mentioned it. The Sea Beach first ran on June 22, 1915, and when June 22 comes around the whole damn Subtalk contingent will hear about it. Does anyone thing June 22 can just go by without Sea Beach Fred ruminating about the greatest train in the system? Not a chance.
Never mind the fact that the BMT standards made their debut in subway service that day as well. The Triplexes would not arrive on the scene for another decade.
I could have sworn it was the 15th! I am sorry.
No problem Piasan. I make one of those mistakes every day it seems. I have trouble keeping certain subway dates in mind---all, that is, except one (June 22, 1915).
IIRC, there were test runs the week before the opening, and on June 19 (86 years ago today), a ceremonial 8-car train ran over the line with dignitaries on board. The Broadway line wasn't ready yet, though; 4th Ave. and Sea Beach trains ran to Chambers St. over the south side bridge tracks.
Rode it today from 59th St. - 96th St. Was on a local-running 2 train.
New car - no A/C.
So it had no air conditioning. SORRRRRRRRIE! A subway train is a machine, and sometimes machines fail. No matter how new or old they are. Was the train supposed to go out of service right then and there? Was the train supposed to be taken out of service at 241 St. and possibly have an abandoned interval on the next trip if another train was not immediately availiable? Ay least it was a Sunday in that it would be easier just to move to another car.
There was nothing in my earlier post that was critical of these cars in general. Indeed, I have never participated in the Redbird vs. R142/A debates that have taken place on this board.
I was merely stating a fact.
Someone sent me a copy of this 1880 bond for the Rockaway Elevated Railroad Company. I have searched through all the LIRR and NYC transit-related books I own and cannot find any information on it.
Very interesting, Bob... unfortunately, I don't know anything about it either. Hopefully someone else will. Anyway, thanks for sharing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I totally stumped !
I wonder if Vincent Seyfried would know anything.
Bill "Newkirk"
could that have been the line that had several trestle fires and was eventually sold to the mta that became the subway service to Rockaway??? Cudahy made a reference to it in "Under the Sidewalks..."
A subsidiary of the LIRR?
no
But the line wasn't elevated until the 1930s.
Among the many original railroads that became part of the LIRR, there are several listed that might somehow be connected.
1-New York, Woodhaven & Rockaway RR 1880-1886
2-Rockaway Railway 1886
3-New York & Rockaway RR 1872
Bob, just a guess really, but I believe this may have been
a holding or shell company established by the NY, Woodhaven &
Rockaway for the purposes of constructing the trestle across
Jamaica bay, which opened in 1880.
Yes, I agree that that is a likely possibility.
Another possibility is that it was connected with that rival company (whose name escapes me now) that was also trying to build across Jamaica Bay at the time, but ended up abandoning it due to some legal problems.
The Rockaway Elevated was formed 1878, which was later than most of the Rockaway railroad activity. I have no record that they ever built or operated anything.
It wasn't any big surprise when RR companies where formed and never built anything, or built something that isn't what you might expect.
For example, the Canarsie Line had "Rockaway" in its corporate name, and there were three companies called the Brooklyn Flatbush & Coney Island (in 1866, 1869 and 1877) but only the last became the Brighton Line.
Paul, the Canarsie Line had the "Rockaway" name in its title because the original owner, William Warner, owned a couple of steamers that would take Canarsie RR riders from the pier at Rockaway Parkway out over Jamaica Bay and to the resorts on the Rockaway peninsula. So getting to the rockaway was a two-step trip: first, rail (at E. NY) and then boat (near Canarsie Depot).
BMTman
So getting to the rockaway was a two-step trip: first, rail (at E. NY) and then boat (near Canarsie Depot).
I'm not sure the terminal of the Canarsie Line at the shore was called Canarsie Depot.
When I think of Canarsie Depot I think of the trolley barn at Rockaway Ave. and Hegeman, where Brooklyn's last trolley line terminated, signed Bristol St.
My goof. I meant to say, Canarsie Grove (It might have also been referred to as the 'Canarsie Depot'). I think that was the term used back in those days. It was the rapid transit terminal near Golden City Park. I believe it was a short walk to the pier and catching a ferry to the Rockaways for alot of vacationers in those days. (The Rockaways back then was equivelant to the resort area of Montauk Point of today).
BMTman
Is NY Subway developing now? It seems like there are no plans to build new lines or reconstruct old ones, isn't it so? At least the station count doesn't seem to change at all for 7 years. It is really BIG, i understand, but there are always areas to develop.
Actually, the station count did change in the last seven years: it went down by one! (Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle)
The 63rd Street Connector between the 63rd Street Line and the Queens Boulevard Line was recently opened. Scheduled service should begin in November (right now trains only run through it during planned or unplanned service diversions).
A Second Avenue Subway, planned since the 1920s, is supposed to be next. If built, it will have 15 stations and will run from lower Manhattan to East Harlem. Other lines being studied are an extension of the Astoria Line (currently the N train) to LaGuardia Airport and an extension of the Flushing Line (the #7 train) to the Javits Convention Center on Manhattan's west side.
As for reconstruction, the subway system is continually being reconstructed. Look at the MTA website (www.mta.nyc.ny.us) for details about the 2000-2004 capital program, upcoming contracts to fix and replace equipment, and various service diversions.
David
While new lines are talked about, there are none close to completion or inclusion into the system. However, one would need to really to see the system to appreciate its size. For example - the station at Times Square has 11 different lines converging (A, C, E, N, R, 1, 2, 3, 7, 9 & S). There are also roughly 6,000 passenger cars and more than 750 miles of track. I think it compares pretty favorably in size to other systems of the world.
No regular subway rider every avoids panhandlers. So what do you when you get one? I know most of them just say their homeless and walk through the car with a Dunkin Donuts cup, but there are some that play a tune with their instrument or do a vocal performance. Recently, I was on the Q train, about the 4th car. We were going north and at Newkirk, a middle-aged man boarded with a trumpet. The performance was quite interesting, and he got very few dirty looks from the passengers as compared to most other panhandlers. He said at Newkirk, "Hope you're all having a good time on the Q train!" Then he played his trumpet at the end of the car from Newkirk to when we passed Beverley. Then he played lower and started walking through the first half of the car with a coffee cup attached to the end of his trumpet. Almost everybody put something in. When he reached the second door of the four in the car, he stepped off to the side to let people on and off at Church. Then from Church to Parkside he played another song and from Parkside when we started to run over the switches before Prospect Park followed the same procedure to the third door. As we went through the long stretch to 7th Ave, he played louder and much more energetically. The train seemed to move faster, I don't know why. We hit 7th Ave and opened the doors where he stopped to wait for people to get on. From 7th to Atlantic he finished collecting and changed cars. I stayed in my car and had to get off at DeKalb but I did hear him playing in the next car when I got out. He was going to do it over the bridge. Cool. You have to admire his tactics as follows:
1) politeness, stepping to the side to let people on/off
2) being quiet when the doors were open so as not to let the conductor know and also to not scare anyone else to another car
3) playing NON-BORING tunes
4) never stopped smiling, and thereby most of the people never stopped smiling, including me
What do you think?
I think he was breaking at least one law and probably more. I don't look beyond that.
David
I might give a little change depending on the actions of the person. I'm a good judge of character. I can usually tell if the person is really in trouble. I'm a sucker for homeless women though. It's not what you think. I always think it could be my mom or something, so I almost always give them change.
I'm faced with a dilemma myself in situations like this. As a Jew, I am commanded to give tzedakah, but that can mean many things, not all of them monetary. I'm not sure that I would appreciate a musician working his way through the train, no matter how good he is, but I do enjoy those who perform in the stations - I've heard some very, very good music there and have contributed accordingly. I'd a whole lot rather see someone using their talents in such a manner rather than simply sitting on their tailbone collecting welfare, or sprawling in the street. On the other hand, I don't want to encourage anyone to break the law.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[As a Jew, I am commanded to give "tzedakah" (charity), but that can mean many things, not all of them monetary.]
This is true, but one can easily give charity without sponsoring activities that are intrusive, obstructive, and/or illegal.
-----
[I'm not sure that I would appreciate a musician working his way through a train, no matter how good he is, but I do enjoy those who perform in stations....]
I agree that musicians, beggars, vendors, and others working their way through a train are NOT appreciated. Their actions tend to break several laws at once.
I also agree that musicians on platforms or mezzanines usually ARE worth listening to, PROVIDED that they are part of the Music Under New York Program (look for an orange and black banner with the MTA logo and the person's or group's name). MUNY performers are assigned to specific locations AND are permitted to solicit donations.
Feeding a drug addiction is not tzedakah. If anything, it's a violation of the command to not place a stumbling block before the blind (which is interpreted metaphorically more often than not).
Feeding a drug addiction is not tzedakah.
Absolutely right. That's what makes the decision about what to do so difficult.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You don't see many panhandlers like that. When I work on the No.1/9 line I see alot of panhandlers and most are aggressive. I remember one early Sunday Morning. My Train Service supervisor who is in charge of me got on at Times Square to evaluate my Announcements and door operation. He was getting ready to get off at 14 Street when a Panhander was singing for money. Well the T.S.S got off but the panhandler was still on. As I'm leaving 14 St. I hear on the radio. "Control center this is T.S.S------ AT 14 St theres a pandhander singing on a downtown No.1 train in the C/R position that just left 14 St." Now "T/O or C/R on the downtown No.1 train that just left 14 St come into Control with call letters and operating motor.
T/O: Yes Control this is the 10:00 Van Cortlandt O/M 2196.
Control: C/R on that 10:00 VC come into Control with the car No. the panhandler is in.
C/R: Yes control the Pandhander is in my operation position car 2240.
Now as this is going on we are coming into Houston St.
Control: T/O and C/R signal in route for police and keep control updated.
C/R: Control this is the C/R on the on the 10:00 VC the Panhander has moved on to the front part of the train.
This can go on and on but there where no cops to be found and the guy got off at Chambers St to go back uptown.
Panhanding is illegal and the TA is trying to crack down on it.
The Police have been ticketing people for stuff that is illegal but most do it.
1. Panhandling
2. Riding between cars
3. Holding Doors ($100)
I learned about No.3 when getting the Platform Patroller job a Grand Central.
Whoever gets that $100 for holding doors can make a mint if the cops would give out tickets on the E line, particularly at WTC, W.4th, 34th, 42nd and Jamaica Center for all of the violations.
You ride in the front of an A train between 59th and Hoyt, and you end up holding doors even if you don't want to. Just give me someone with a large bookbag and I'll show you what the A/C can be like in these areas. You have to prepare two stops before to get off the train.
When you are riding the subway, you are entitled to your own personal space. That space is invaded by panhandlers, self-appointed "preachers", and people selling merchandise of dubious origin. A panhandler is owed nothing. If I dropped a quarter into every styrofoam cup pushed into my face, there would be nothing left for me. I believe in government sponsored welfare for the truly needy, but I don't buy into panhandlers' guilt trips.
I had a panhandler in Philly recently ask me for change to get somewhere. When I offered to buy him a ticket on the Regional Rail Line he wanted to ride, he refused and wanted the money - a clear warning to me that this was drug, alcohol or tobacco money he was after.
Nowadays I've seen panhandlers who will accept the ticket, but then go to the ticket office/window and say "I made a mistake, can I have my money back?" Works really well on NJ Transit and on Greyhound, so I hear.
That's true. One time I decided, in response to a person's request, to get him a token for the Broad Street line. I walked him to the line, and put the token into the turnstile. He got on a train.
I did ask him not to beg for money on the system while he was riding. Obviously, I have no way of enforcing that.
Rest assured, I don't do this often.
However, I will for the right person. A young mother carrying an infant and a large bag of diapers rode the San Diegan sitting next to me. At LA's Union Station at 10:30PM, she started looking for local bus information to get to an address near City of Industry. I asked her how much money she had with her - it was $3.
I stuffed $40 in her pocket, walked her to the cab stand and translated her Spanish into English for the cab driver.
There are some things I can't walk away from.
However, I will for the right person. A young mother carrying an infant and a large bag of diapers rode the San Diegan sitting next to me. At LA's Union Station at 10:30PM, she started looking for local bus information to get to an address near City of Industry. I asked her how much money she had with her - it was $3.
I stuffed $40 in her pocket, walked her to the cab stand and translated her Spanish into English for the cab driver.
There are some things I can't walk away from.
It could have been an especially clever scam. Seriously, I've heard of people using children (or pets, they sometimes work even better) as begging props.
Yes, it could have been a scam, and I have seen children used that way (and I think it's morally corrupt in the worst way). This time, however, it was probably not, in that I chose where to sit, struck up the conversation, and she refused my money a couple of times - until I saw what she was doing at Union Station and asked her to reconsider.
sellling goods is called "selling swipes" as in NYPD TD Dispatch: KT L district 6 respond to Station X for reports of a male selling Swipes"
I feel bad for these people. It's true that I usually don't give either, but that's because I really cannot afford to. The women dressed in designer suits can.
Beggars are a result of a poor social service net in NYC. It is an expensive place to live, and homelessness is not far off for many working class people in New York.
I personally don't believe there should be beggars in the subway, but simply kicking them out is not the answer. Moratoriams on upscale housing while major new affordable housing is built, and expansion of the health and mental care system IS the answer.
Beggars are a result of a poor social service net in NYC.
No they're not. Most are con artists or drug addicts. Those who are TRULY needy tend to have dignity and don't flaunt it, even if they could get money for it. Not to mention that most of the truly needy are still law-abiding citizens.
It is an expensive place to live, and homelessness is not far off for many working class people in New York.
That may be true, but those who do become homeless are rarely the ones who beg.
I personally don't believe there should be beggars in the subway, but simply kicking them out is not the answer. Moratoriams on upscale housing while major new affordable housing is built
Painting the board red again, eh?
No matter how many times I tell you, it still doesn't get through. Any moratoria on building will only stop building COMPLETELY. Nobody wants to build "affordable" homes because there is a smaller return on investment. People work through self-interest. It's human nature, and without it society would never have developed. Some idealists tend to ignore human nature.
and expansion of the health and mental care system IS the answer.
We agree on that, but that won't get rid of many of the beggars, the ones that are conmen and druggies as I mentioned above.
I never give to panhandlers. No matter how convincing the sob story, there's no way to be sure that the money won't be spent on drugs or alcohol.
Like the posters say, give to charity. Not to panhandlers.
Someone who tries to provide something of value will always get a little change or a dollar bill from me. This guy's performance, to me, is an example of what makes New York, well, New York. I have a painting on my living room wall which somebody on the Lex sketched and gave me. I've watched skits. People singing, playing drums, strumming a guitar, even if they were off-key, got a little something from me.
Someone recently did a little theatre show on the train. The Times ran an article on it.
I don't respect begging though. I don't reward that behavior. I usually ignore it. However, there have been two occasions over the years when a panhandler got a little persistent about asking for change and I alerted the transit police to remove him from the subway.
TAs official policy is "Give to charity - just not here!" The fact is that if there were no monies to be had, the panhandlers, the sellers and the beggars would go elsewhere. As for the musicians, they are a real pain - especially if you are trying to hear an announcement. The worst is when the musician is good. Last week in Grand Central a gentleman was doing a tango with a lifesize female dummy with some unusual proportions. He drew quite a crowd - making walking through the mezzanine even more difficult than usual. Hence, let me reiterate the TA policy - "Give to charity - just not here (on the subways)"
Yesterday on the A a man got on at 145 and he sang in my car all the way down the express till 59, he was very good and was not disrespectful at all he smiled the whole time and got all the change in my pocket, minus my fare.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I only pay for music if:
1. I wanted to hear music prior to the guy starting
2. The guy has reasonable music skills and is using them(playing a boom box or kazoo doesn't cut it)
3. Not too "in-your-face" (attempting to use guilt as a motivator is a foul)
Playing music on the subway by itself isn't a crime, right?
Playing music on the subway by itself isn't a crime, right?
I believe it is.
I'm assuming "No radio playing" would cover any device that creates music that is audible to others.
you seem to be a very cruel person, everything is a scam, crime, or ripoff to you. Should I refrain talking about your parents? Might it arouse repressed memories?
I'll divide my response into three categories: musicians, regular panhandlers, and the visibly distressed.
1) I'll occasionally toss a buck to someone playing on a platform, if I like what I hear and have to wait long enough to enjoy it. No one should be playing or making noise (ie. cell phones) in a subway car, where you are forced to listen and can't move away.
2) We give to charity, but I'll never give a dime to a panhandler on the street or in the subway. There is a good chance it's a scam.
3) As for some who stinks, in clearly ill, and partially exposed, well they usually don't ask, and I would never give. Again, charity is a better choice than cash, which might go for the last fix that does him or her in.
My way of dealing with panhandlers:
If I know them personally, like SubTalkers Heypaul and Qtraindash7, I tend to drop them a few dollars and send them on their way.
I myself have been involved in panhandling -- when I was in need of funding for the brass R-32 set I was doing my bit on the 8th Ave. Line in a double-breasted suit......I was the guy doing lame impressions of Elvis...;-D
BTW, thanks for your support!
BMTman
I have not been to the Transit Museum in a long time. However, if I recall correctly, their tracks of retired cars are just about full.
Are there any plans for when cars in the current fleets are retired? Specifically, how do they plan to squeeze in a 75' R44 in what I guess would be about ten years from now, when its "number" should be up? (I know other cars are older; I was just using that as an example.)
They may just get in the mode ... we have enough old subway cars & don't need any more, beside we don't have enough space for all the ones we alreay have, so some are rusting away out side.
I hope this isn't true, so we'll just have to wait & see.
Mr t__:^)
For the size of the subway system, NY has a tiny investment in its history.
At a bare minimum, we should press for the conversion of the BMT City Hall lower level to be converted into a car exhibit and connected to the IRT City Hall loop which could have other history exhibits on the platform (with a plexiglass separator from the trains).
The cost should only be a few million $$, which in the greater scheme of things is nothing! The only problem is that there is no pork for anyone in this scheme, so it won’t happen :-(
John
Who else was on it today? I enjoyed it even though it rained like the Devil at Rockaway Park. The Triplexes rule for speed! I will probably go on the last one in July, too.
I WAS THERE! At the front car about to kill some kids that butted the line to the front window!
All in all a great trip though, had a blast and made new friends!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
A lady reporter from the New York Times interviewed me and my nephew while we were at the Transit Museum stop, and another reporter also from the Times asked me some more questions. I do not think that the story got printed, due to the tragic events about those poor firemen who lost their lives that day. I hope their families can find solace and peace.
LOL!
All I can say about them is their knowledge of the subway was amazing. I don't know the order of the stations on the A train much past ENY (if even that far, I can make it to Hoyt). I wonder how much longer until they make it here? As long as they don't all shout in unison "Now passing Broad Channel" all the time :-).
nobody took any pictures ??
NO ... nobody took any pictures ... cameras were banned.
Peace,
ANDEE
For national security reasons, of course. If that D-type technology
should ever fall into enemy hands........
Just for curiosity what designation was on the D types on the Nostalgic trip yesterday?
The destination of the two window end of the train was 4 to Coney Island, and the side with only one window (railfan) well it's sign was ripped down and there was no sign...:-\
I was very upset to see that ripped sign. I sincerely hope they haven't slacked off on maintaining that train. There aren't any more of those beauties left. :(
They could open up that sign box and mend the curtain. That canvas can get brittle with age. I've had to tape the canvas on one of my IND curtains.
Funny that you say, because the new book "Subways of the World" (Fischler) says that Soviets stole R12 technology to build their post-war Moscow fleet.
Cameras were banned? What for?
I did but I just got back from NYC and I need to develop them. They will be on my website (orenstransitpage.com) when I get them scanned. You want e-mail notification when I do it?
I will probably go on the last one in July, too.
Gee, I wish I could just up and choose what Nostalgia trips to go on. I rarely get my first tour choices from the museum. Before, when members could call to make reservations, they were always sold out, and that's after hitting redial for two hours. Now, with this new write-in reservations lottery, same thing. I didn't even bother for the summer tours.
Well, I guess at least I got to go on one trip -- the triplexes to Canarsie a couple years back. Even if I could get a reservation, I would want to ride something besides these BMT articulateds anyway.
Have you guys checked out the new "Subway Series thru the years"
exhibit at Grand Central's Transit Museum? It's entertaining.
At least, I liked it. They've got some of the old uniforms, etc.
Did you know there once was a team named the "IRT's?"
I saw that this week and liked it, too. I also saw a subway series game. I wonder which is better.
I'm looking for Metro North train pictures, that show a good side
view with lots of cars visible. All branches. Anyone got any I can
view?
Have you tried consulting the Table of Contents at www.nycsubway.org?
I have several which show two cars taken at close range, decent shots of the business train in GCT, and a shot from the mezzanine at Croton-Harmon of a train switching into the station (high and far). I also have a copyrighted photo which seems to be exactly what you want, but I do not own the copyright.
Heard that the R train was running via 63rd and since more R-32s then usual are being run I figured I'd go for it.
Got to Roosevelt/Jackson Hts. and about 45 seconds after I arrived an R-32 R train arrived. Thanking my lucky stars I boarded and proceeded through the 63rd St. connector. Some observations:
The concrete ties on concrete roadbed give a much smoother ride then the wooden ones on gravel or concrete.
Is there a platform on the other side of Lexington Av? I know that when and if 63rd is fully open there will be both Broadway and 6th Av. trains running through, one on each side of the station and as of now I can't tell if the platform exists yet.
Roosevelt Island is my favorite station in the whole system. It's beautiful. I love that station.
The train was running express all the way down Broadway. Got off Times Square to look at the work trains in the system, headed by diesel locomotive #78. Attached was a former R-21 and another car who I couldn't identify but probably also an R-21, and a flatcar.
Boarded the R-32 N train that came into the station a few minutes later and changed at 14th for the 5 to Brooklyn Bridge. Rode the City Hall loop against the conductor's insistence. As we were about 100ft from re-entering Brooklyn Bridge the train stopped and the T/O left the train through the storm door, did something and came back. I was too scared he'd see me to look.
Walked through the passage to Chambers St. to wait for a J train and spent abotu five minutes feeling depressed about what the station which once was the heart of the BMT had become. More then half unused, decrepit and in disrepair, that station is very sad (as is the entire Nassau St. line.). There seem to be tracks to the east of the station which I didn't see on the track map that intersect the mainline tracks and then veer off to the east. Anyone know what these are?
Rode over the Willy B to Myrtle Av. They're really serious about rebuilding that bridge; there is no roadway on the Manhattan bound side at all. Let's hope they can do this properly.
Rode the M to Wyckoff and got the L train, which was terminating at Metropolitan/Wyckoff. Took the L to 6th Ave and boarded a 1 to Times Square where I got the 7 home.
Dan
Is there a platform on the other side of Lexington Av? I know that when and if 63rd is fully open there will be both Broadway and 6th Av. trains running through, one on each side of the station and as of now I can't tell if the platform exists yet.
What appears to be a side platform at 63rd and Lex is actually an island platform with a false wall. A complete station shell, including trackage, exists on the other side, but it's not for connection to the 63rd Street tunnel; rather, it's for a connection to the Second Avenue line, whenever that gets built.
Here's a map from the track map section of this site. I've been in the shell a few years back as part of a Transit Museum tour but don't have decent photographs. It's strictly rough concrete at this point, with the usual homeless intrusions here and there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also rode an R-32 R through the connector Manhattan bound. I don't know if it is because of a brand spanking new tracks or what but the switch from the local to the Queensbridge tracks after 36 st. was damn smooth....no jerk like most track changes that I experienced. I personally think that there are too many yellows on the early stretches which cause the train to proceed kinda slow...I don't think those curves are as sharp as the E/F curve going to QP from Roosevelt Ave.
The greatest part of the ride was the gradual turn after Lex to 57/7. I'd take that curve over the 5 ave to 57/7 turn anyday.
My only question: After Roosevelt Island towards Lex, there's a point where I see another tunnel to my left with no tracks heading into it. Is that part of the hopefully Second Ave connection?
My wish is to have a Slant go express from Roosevelt, through the 63 tunnel and onto the Bway express.....I'd live to ride the railfan on that trip.
=)
My only question: After Roosevelt Island towards Lex, there's a point where I see another tunnel to my left with no tracks heading into it. Is that part of the hopefully Second Ave connection?
It matches, and I can't think of anything else it could be.
Yes, those are the bellmouth's for the Second Ave. stubway if it is ever built. The Lexington Ave station (63rd st) also has the rough shell for another entrance/exit to 63/3 AVE. The stairs are in place with openings for the escalators and elevators. There is even stairs to the street (which end at the bottom of the sidewalk.)
So why not complete and unseal the second station exit?
>>>>>>>>>Is there a platform on the other side of Lexington Av? I know that when and if 63rd is fully open there will be both Broadway and 6th Av. trains running through, one on each side of the station and as of now I can't tell if the platform exists yet.
Yes, there is a narrow platform on the other side of the station on both the Upper Level, and the Lower Level. However, these two platforms are for layups only, and will not be seeing passenger service. The tracks with the unused narrow platforms have bumping blocks at the north end.
>>>>>>>As we were about 100ft from re-entering Brooklyn Bridge the train stopped and the T/O left the train through the storm door, did something and came back. I was too scared he'd see me to look.
Geez, use your imagination.
Question: Do you see any lavatories on board?
>>>>>>There seem to be tracks to the east of the station which I didn't see on the track map that intersect the mainline tracks and then veer off to the east. Anyone know what these are?
Well, considering that the station faces north & south, I have no idea as to which tracks that you are talking about.
The tracks on the north side used to connect with the Manhattan Bridge and offered passenger service over the Nassau Loop. They are now used for storage only, and end at bumping blocks south of the Bridge.
The tracks on the south side that connect with the "express" tracks converge into one track south of Chambers and end at a bumping block. The length from the southern tip of Chambers station to the block is about 18 cars.
I rode the F from 4th ave to Jay street today. The F seemed to run about every 10 minutes, not 15,was a slow ride. But interesting. There was a work train on the N/B local track. The lower level has no signals, they appear to be covered up. Also saw the unused Bergen street lower level, just a "shell" of a station with very little signage and no lights.
It's a shame the express tracks aren't used, but I guess with the ignal situation and the lack of ridership the express wouldn't work. Also where would the G turn?
Church Street Station would be the place, and that is where the G was turned when the express tracks were in service back in the 70's, if I remember correctly. Somehow, the service got terminated, and we are back to Smith/9th Street.
Church Ave. was designed as a terminus/turnback station, a la 179th St.
True, but it did function as a terminal for the G for a short period of time. It did work, but then things got put back to Smith/9th street. Maybe it could be revived, but I have some doubts. It was used and can be used again.
F trains have terminated there, as have D trains before Chrystie St.
Yes, both the D and F terminated at Church in the past. However, it also was the terminus for the G when the Culver Express service was in effect. The plan first had All F's express, with G's as locals. Then, Kings Highway F's made local stops as well. Finally, the whole thing was canned.
If it were done today, the Church terminal could be used. A few years back, work on the Smith-9th interlockings forced the G to terminate at church. If you look at the track map, there is a lower level after the church station where trains are turned.
Whenever I "coop the loop" I do so in the rearmost car of the #6; the C/R can't see you there even with the mirror; and he/she usually doesn't walk that far back to check on things. To wit; last January on a day trip, nine of us at once pulled off this feat by boarding at once just as the doors closed and laying low until well into the loop.
As for Chambers Street, it is a ruin, sad, depressing, and in dire need of a complete rebuild. My concern is that the powdering concrete will let go at some point and do some damage. It's especially bad over the northbound tracks. Oddly enough, they have rebuilt the north entrance (the one near Foley Square), they actually moved it; and they plugged some of the water leaks there and put new tile in the same pattern and colors as the original.
wayne
Shame, such history there....and a very nice track arrangement. I would love to see a service terminate there via a re-connection to the south Manny B tracks.
How did you pull that off? I rode through there on Sunday at about 6 and all I saw (and rode) was a bunch of R46 trains. I didn't have time to wait. From my limited view (the cab door was opened about 2 inches) I got an OK view. Pretty impressive. See the post I make once I finish reading all this. (I'm still on Sunday!!!).
I put up some more Philadelphia transit photos and more commentary on my website today. Scroll down a bit to the "Philadelphia Transit Tour" section. (I have not yet taken the time to learn targeting in HTML. I really have to do that one day!)
Hasty post...I should have mentioned I've got shots of Amtrak @ 30th Street Station, Route 100, the MFL, and some Media/Sharon Hill Kawasakis. Also, comments and especially corrections are always appreciated.
A couple days ago I saw a surveillance camera mounted on a thin metal pole, pointing right into the operator's cab (and my railfan window) just ahead of the front-end of the Astoria-bound 'N' platform at Queensboro Plaza. I often spend my time staring out the front window of R-32s or the occasional R-40 Slant on the 'N', so I know this camera is new. It looks like one of those outdoor security cameras you see outside office buildings. What is it for?
(Sorry if this subject has been brought-up already. I have been working all weekend, and putting together more of my webpages, so I haven't had much time to browse SubTalk.)
Was there a TV at the conductors board? That camera may be one of several on the platform there and at various other stations to aid the conductor in observing the passengers get on and off the train so he/she won't hit anybody with a closing door, assuming that some idiot doesn't attempt block at door while they are in the closing mode.
I'll check again, but it was my impression that the platform edge at QBP was relatively straight with no curvature to block the C/R's view. Also, the fact that the camera is brand new, and that people have been "watching the closing doors" at QBP for decades without this camera, caused me to wonder. I'll look for the monitors next time.
A couple days ago I saw a surveillance camera mounted on a thin metal pole, pointing right into the operator's cab (and my railfan window) just ahead of the front-end of the Astoria-bound 'N' platform at Queensboro Plaza.
-------------------------------------------------------
The camera is for the tower to identify the trains motor number and what train it is. This is in preparation for when the w starts to roll to Astoria july 22(d-day!!) Theres also cameras mounted at the 59 st columbus circle station for the same purpose.
I guesse it's true they are scrapping the 110A. At least that's what KHI seems to be saying. Oh well, waste of a good train.
As far as I am aware, the only place the R-110A scrapping story has been heard has been on this board. That doesn't mean it's false, but it doesn't mean it's true, either.
Let's wait 'til something official comes out about it, eh?
David
probably covered with graffitti already.
None sighted as of yet.
"I guesse it's true they are scrapping the 110A. At least that's what KHI seems to be saying. Oh well, waste of a good train."
The R-110As are currently in mothball storage at Pitkin Yard. The TA wants to stow them away for now because their future is uncertain and attention is focused on the R-142s.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R110A was junk. No where near as nice as the R-142a's. The only trains that are bigger junk are the 75 footers. I KNOW I'm going to get buried over that one. ~_~
The R-46s aren't junk.
its the r-44. they are on their way out soon. after the r38-42 leaves and is replaced. the r-46 will go longer because it is in excellent shape(the carbody)
I would like to remind everyone at this point that:
1. No cars have been ordered to replace the R-44 fleet
2. There is currently no budget item in the Capital Program to replace the R-44 fleet
3. The only place we're hearing about plans to scrap the R-44s is HERE.
David
I would like to remind everyone at this point that:
1. No cars have been ordered to replace the R-44 fleet
2. There is currently no budget item in the Capital Program to replace the R-44 fleet
3. The only place we're hearing about plans to scrap the R-44s is HERE.
In Response To:
#1: You're correct. thanks for clearing that up with me.
#2. Again, you're correct. Even if this rumored R-160A contract does exist, I doubt that they'll leave around R-38's thru 42's that aren't replaced (Note at bottom on this)and get rid of the 44's
#3: That point is true, and i'm beginning to become skeptical about the info on this site.
NOTE: The R-160 will not be replacing the entire R-32GE thru R-42 series. Only 607 cars will be replaced (I'd like to see them pull off replacing an odd number of cars when ALL of them are married pairs.)
Somebody on this site (I believe it was the ever-so-informative David) made the following suggestion:
10 R-32GE
294 R-40
196 R-38
All R-42 Coney Island Re-builds.
"Somebody on this site (I believe it was the ever-so-informative David) made the following suggestion:
10 R-32GE
294 R-40
196 R-38
All R-42 Coney Island Re-builds."
In fact, it's more than a suggestion (and yes, it was me).
Look at the description of the MTA Capital Program on the MTA's website (www.mta.nyc.ny.us). It's on there (minus specific numbers for each car class)!
David
Did anyone see "Planet Storm" on the Discovery Channel last night? It had some nice shots of the Miami Metro Mover and also of a Toronto streetcar. This was a pleasant surprise, considering it was a show about weather on other planets. Sorry, no shots of the Mars Metro.
Mark
In the past few days, the TA have installed OPTO car markers from Queens Plaza to Continental Avenue on all 4 tracks. Interestingly, there is a turnaround OPTO marker on the northbound express track (4 track) at 36 Street. Hmmmmm, could they be experimenting with service turning at Queens Plaza? But then again, there is a spur track (D5). Why would a train turn on the mainline when there is D5 available? Makes you wonder.
Anyway, it appears that OPTO will run along Queens Blvd on the G line. Oh great, 3 round trips from Continental to Fourth Avenue Relay. It's hard enough with a C/R, now they're gonna want you to go at it alone. No tank yew.
Why is relaying harder alone than with a C/R?
ISTM the hardest part of relaying is walking from one end of the train to the other, and it's easier to do that on short trains.
Not the relaying. The trip itself.
Oh! That's for sure. It's also harder on the passengers.
If the TA seriously wants to use OPTO, cars should be modified with video cameras on the left side and door controls for both sides in each cab. Of course, then the TA will have little incentive to keep C/R's at all.
All the transverse cabs (which are the only ones used in OPTO service) have door controls for both sides in the cab already.
They do, but the T/O has to get up and walk across the cab to open the doors, which delays service considerably.
If the TA installed video cameras on the left side of the train and put monitors and left-side door controls on the right side of the cab (or, in the case of half-width cabs, in the cab at all), OPTO would be no slower than TPTO.
On a R46 it is much easier when the C/R electrically unlocks the storm doors for you (T/O) opposed to having to do it yourself. Wait till they switch to the R68/68A's.
With the vapor keys isn't it possible to unlock the R-46 storm doors from one cab, remove the key and walk to the other end and lock them from the other cab?
Once the end doors are unlocked on the console, the key cannot be removed, it is trapped in the slot. The only way to get it out is when the end doors are re-locked.
What was the logic behind that?
The R68/68A's have a keyless switch that allows a crew member to unlock the end doors. Every door unlocks except the end cabs. Why? I have no idea.
Maybe Mr. TD has the answer.
But when you get to the other end of the train you still can't lock the doors. If one switch is in the unlocked position the door say unlocked on the hole train.
Robert
Great, that's just great. OPTO once again rears its ugly head. So now instead of OPTO only in effect on weekends, now it will go the way of the Franklin Shuttle full time from Continental Avenue to Fourth Avenue meaning even less jobs for conductors to choose from on future picks.
Maybe I ought to go down to the personnel department and step up my efforts to get promoted to train operators in Motors. Pretty soon, conductors will be going the way of the token clerks, a thing of the past. It's just unfortunate that no one seems to care.
"It's all in the name of progress" says one MTA official. And they can get away with it too, as long as its on an insignificant (no pun intended) line. Let them try such a thing on the Deuce; all h*** will break loose. And it would take a lot more than the simple fact of there being R-142s on the line for them to justify it.
Actually "Mr. Dogg", OPTO will still remain in effect on weekends only, and possibly nights though that last one is a guess.
The G is going to CTL all weekend starting with the winter pick.
All of our C/R's lost their jobs on the MFL when the M-4's started running. This might be a trend starting. The Broad St. Subway has been OPTO since 1984 with the B-IV cars. Those operators have to run across the cab at an island platform. Keeps you moving!
Chuck Greene
Do you mean that all the C/R's were laid off? Or were they reassigned within SEPTA?
I'm not sure. It's possible that they were reassigned. Let's hope so, anyway.
Chuck Greene
>>> Great, that's just great. OPTO once again rears its ugly head. <<<
I'm afraid you have your head in the sand if you do not recognize that OPTO is definitely coming. Maybe the first clue was hiring of T/Os off the street instead of from the C/R ranks. You will probably see the TA hiring less and less C/Rs, so the job will go by attrition rather than layoffs. Your job may be safe through retirement, but don't raise your newborn son to be a C/R. My guess is that rush hour trains will keep C/Rs longer than others, but some day they (you) will go the way of firemen on the main line, elevator operators and lighthouse keepers.
What is really bad is poorly implemented OPTO. On the Los Angeles Red Line which was designed for OPTO, the T/O has to get up from his seat at each station and lean out the window to see the doors. After he closes the doors he is still hanging out the window looking backward as he starts to give power to the train to watch for drags. There is no excuse for that. Since the system was designed for OPTO there should have been some kind of closed circuit TV allowing the T/O to be sitting forward, and seeing the doors on a screen as he starts the train moving.
Tom
CCTV is used in Philly on the Market-Frankford Line. The new M-4's have this and the operator can stay seated no matter what side he opens the doors, because the TV gives him/her a clear view of either side. On the Broad St. Line,no cameras are used, so you have to jump up out of your seat, and run across the cab for island stations. For side stations you have to raise up to see out the window to observe the train door lights.
Chuck Greene
...but some day they (you) will go the way of... lighthouse keepers.
What about Earl* the lighthouse keeper?
*Electronic Automatic Robotic Lighthouse
No, Tom, my head is not in the sand as far as knowing OPTO is coming. I'm well aware of it. But perhaps maybe you can explain that to the customers in the other cars without the T/O who risk becoming victims of all sorts of crimes. Explain to the customers what happens when their T/O becomes incapacitated during an emergency. Explain that to the C/Rs who become displaced by the fewer jobs and face possible unemployment.
Because something can be done doesn't necessarily mean that it should be done.
From a more national perspective (I live now in SF Bay Area but have previously lived in DC, NY, Chgo, Philly) I note that BART and ALL the other "new" systems as well as the Orange/Midway line in Chgo, all opened as OPTO. Secondly, we have the converse of SF MUNI operators balking at OPTO of two units LRV trains. This is 2001 folks, Frank Sprague invented MU 103 years ago. Just as we advanced to one C/O per subway train now we move to OPTO. There will be some glitches, there might be some security problems. But IMHO the security problem is much better responded to by having more cops rather than expecting the conductor to be a cop. As to relaying at terminals, 'fallback staffing' has always seemed a more civil system to me and should allow for a 'decompression break' between runs--better for ALL concerned.
I don't think anyone's expecting a conductor to be a cop. The main thing is that you have a train crew where one is operating the train and the other is the eyes and ears on the train. With a conductor on a train, people feel safe. There is a uniformed presence on the train that they can see. There is an extra radio on board to radio for help when the need arises. Know how many times people have asked me where the conductor's operating cars are late at night?
I'm sorry, call me old fashioned or afraid of change if you want, but I am not convinced that going solely OPTO is a good move at this time. And I would be saying this even if I didn't work for the TA.
With a conductor on a train, people feel safe.
I do not want to pay more for the subway because some people have irrational concerns about safety. The subway is not there to make people "feel" better, it is there to move them. If some people fear, then they can get a chauffeur.
But perhaps maybe you can explain that to the customers in the other cars without the T/O who risk becoming victims of all sorts of crimes.
The conductor is not armed. He risks as much being a victim as the other passengers. He won't protect the passengers.
Explain to the customers what happens when their T/O becomes incapacitated during an emergency.
Conductors don't drive trains.
Explain that to the C/Rs who become displaced by the fewer jobs and face possible unemployment.
This argument has been used time and time again, but it just doesn't hold water. What about all those other jobs eliminated by progress? Per-car conductors, elevator operators. What about the armies of workers in factories that have been replaced by a much smaller number of skilled technicians operating robots? The population has increased, yet the unemployment rate has not. Keeping jobs is no excuse for delaying automation. If it was, then there are other solutions (like cutting the work week).
>>>>The conductor is not armed. He risks as much being a victim as the other passengers. He won't protect the passengers.
That's not behind his reasoning. A C/R can notify police in the event of a crime in progress, and in turn notify the T/O to hold the train outside the station until they arrive. Also the presence of a C/R can prevent certain crimes from happening in the first place.
While waiting for a 2 or 3 this morning on the city-bound Atlantic Avenue station, a train of Redbirds arrived, with an R-36 WF (9700 Series) on the point. The exterior of the lead car identified the train as a #2. I boarded the first car. The paper strip map on the ceiling/wall near the TO's end identified the train as a 7 express and provided the route for that line. The interior roll sign, however, identified the car as a 5 from East 180th Street to Bowling Green.
LOL - this reminded me of the late '70s when no one cared about proper signage.
I'll bet it turned out to be a 4 in the end.
If Mitch was "waiting for a 2 or 3" and "entered the
first car" when this consist pulled up... chances
are it may have been a "2" in the end??.
You probably guessed, but the BMT message i posted was an error. My first attempt at an HTML site post.
Is there a place on this site that lists what lines the newer trains are on and the times they depart? I've looked but obviously not well enough. Thanks in advance
R-142: #2
R-142A: #6
The trains are not assigned to particular intervals (trips).
R-143: In test without passengers on the Rockaway Line in the area of Broad Channel -- expected to enter test service on the L line by the end of the year.
David
Here are some pictures from yesterdays Nostalgia Train.
Nostalgia Train 06/17/01 Let me know if the link doesn't work.
Thanks for the pictures. The link worked great.
Simon
Swindon UK
Tony, Thanks for sharing. Looks like the rain didn't dampen you spirits !
Mr t__:^)
Works great! I can hear those compressors and bull and pinion gears.
Looks like you had a few empty seats,the photos make me homesick...Thanks for the pix.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, that's a Triplex. How many Triplexes have been preserved (apart from the one in the transit Museum) and how many are still operable
Thanks
Great pictures! Thanks!
Two. #6112A,B,C and 6034A,B,C. They were in the main shop for some time to get them operational for the trip. About two months ago they had to be pushed around the loop to go on display for the TA rodeo.
"Two. #6112A,B,C and 6034A,B,C."
Correction !
Three units #6112 A,B,C - #6095 A,B,C - #6019 A,B,C
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks.
Now I remember. Wasn't 6034 involved in the crash at Stillwell? That's why it stuck in my head. There are only two units at CIYD. The other unit you listed is at the museum isn't it?
I understood 6095 was in the Museum. Thanks anyway for the responses
It was 6043 that got into a tussle with 6078 at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. The crash was reported to have measured around 4 on the Richter Scale and many parents in the area thought their kids may have fallen out of bed.:-) 6043C, 6078A, and 6078B were damaged beyond repair and were scrapped a few years later. 6078C was grafted onto 6043B and renumbered 6043C. Gotham Turnstiles has a photo of this very unit leading a deadheading West End train along the center track of the Astoria line in 1965.
"It was 6043 that got into a tussle with 6078 at Stillwell Ave. in 1955"
Sorry Steve, you were two numbers off ! It was 6045.
Bill "Newkirk"
I stand corrected. I keep forgetting!!!
"I stand corrected. I keep forgetting!!! "
You don't have to STAND Steve, have a seat, please !
Bill "Newkirk"
But I always stand at the railfan window:-). Hopefully someday I'll be able to do so on that Triplex train.
I understand that the third set at the Museum operates too.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, it does
Didn't believe me Mr. T?
Are you a student or staff? I work at the college. I've probably seen you around. I fix computers there.
Cameras were most certainly not banned at the Nostalgia Train. Everyone took pictures there.
NJ Congressman Rob Andrews held a rally at 30th St. Station today with reps. from various unions critisizing Bru's plan to scale baque Amtrak. He said that a national network is vital to the nation's future economy.
GO ANDREWS! RAH RAH RAH! PHIM TOOM BA!
Ron: LOL! Truly!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Yesterday's 9 inches of rain has really fucked things up on the R2 Warminster and R5 Lansdale Regional Rail lines. On the R2 there was some balast errosion and they plan to get that back in service tomorrow. However, on the R5 a bridge washed out and it's going to be out of service for several weeks. Riders will have to use a shuttle bus that stops at Fern Rock where they can X-fer to a BSS train or a Main Line RR train to Centre City.
I was watching the report on channel 10 and the guy was at Fern Rock and you could see BSS train going around the loop behind him.
R3 was affected also over the weekend but back in service by Monday morning. R2 is also back but confusion reigns at SEPTA - some trains mis-met shuttles at Fern Rock (they were supposed to connect at Glenside) and some shuttle bus operators got lost on their routes.
R5 is going to be out for at least 2-3 weeks due to the washout of a small bridge near Fort Washington. Trains have been operating from Doylestown or Lansdale to Ambler, where riders transfer to shuttle buses. The original shuttles ran express to Fern Rock, where riders were directed to the Broad St Subway (although one can get Regional Rail there also), with local buses serving stations between Ambler and Jenkintown. Last I heard, the R5's are picking up again at Glenside, so the 'bus bridge' is only between Ambler and Glenside.
R3 was affected on its Media end on Monday also due to late (and in one case, a broken-down) trains.
The latest on R5 - trains are still out between Jenkintown and Ambler. Shuttle busess are providing service as the 'bridge'. There are two routes - one express, the other local (serving the in-between stops, Ft Washington, Oreland, North Hills, and Glenside). This will be in effect for at least the next 3 weeks.
Today's Metro had a photo of the washed-out bridge, with the caption to the effect that the bridge would be 'repaired'. The photo clearly showed the rails/ties with no support, thus the 'repair' seemed to be very optimistic!
R2 and R3 are back to normal.
I heard the LIRR has made orders for new M-7 cars. That's all great and all. But I live in Westchester and I take the Harlem Line and the M-1's are getting a little rickety, and more breakdown-prone. Therefore, I was wondering - is the Metro-North Agency placing these M-7 Car orders AS WELL AS THE LIRR? I hope so! And, BTW, has anybody noticed how devievingly slow MNRR trains go during the 125th Street - GCT gap?
MNRR will be getting M-7s, to replace all the ACMUS (damn it) and most of the M-1s. The first car has already been built, according to a Mileposts I read recently.
I sure hope the M7 has more windows than what that picture implies. What a plain-looking car! Even the doorways don't seem to be as wide as the M1/M3's.
There are fewer windows, and the door is (in a manner of speaking) narrower.
The reason for this is the need for the M7 to be fully compliant with the Americans with Disabilties Act (ADA).
Doors - the single M7 door is narrower than the combined two doors on earlier cars. Reason -- a wheelchair cannot fit through a single door on a current car if one of the pair doesn't work. (Of course, if the single door on the M7 doesn't work, nobody can fit through it.)
Windows - the single door requires a longer "pocket". Also, the lavatory has to be larger, and it takes up over 1/2 the car width. To make it fully accessable, it has to be near a door.
Note that the M7 purchases for Metro North are ONLY for the Hudson and Harlem Divisions. There is no order out for replacement cars for the New Haven. Instead, they will be rehabilitating the older cars starting next year, to get a few more years of service, but they still haven't placed any order for new cars!
I doubt that MNRR needs to replace anything. With the mid-Harlem third track coming soon, service lavels will increase significantly, and they will have to keep M-1's around, and maybe even the ACMU's to provide peak service. If they electrify the upper Hudson line, which is not that improbable, they will need even more MU trains.
Few if any of the Metro-North M1s or M3s are as bad as the ones serving the LIRR. Heck, MNRR's even look better!
But yes, M7s are going to both the LIRR and MNRR.
:-) Andrew
I take MNRR everyday off peak, and since there's only one track going in the off peak direction at a time, service can be really slow from about Melrose to GCT. It's terrible.
Thanks, all! I too hope the M-7's do have more windows - they don't look too abundant, don't ya think? One more question: Will the M-7 Cars be faster? As I said before, the MNRR as well as the LIRR BOTH go to WAY too slow - I could probably run from Melrose to Grand Central faster than the afternoon trains (currently)!!!
If anything, they will be slower, as they will be much heavier. They will also be of no resemblance to anything we have ever seen and will be incredibly ugly.
The M-1 fleet was designed for 100 MPH operation. How much faster would one want to go in commuter service, and would signals/track design/agency policies allow for it anyway?
David
"Speedier" doesn't necessarily mean faster. It means faster running times (read: acceleration rate); the M-1's aren't terribly good at that, and I think the M-7's will be worse. It takes as long as it did in 1925 for a train with the same stops to go Penn Station - Babylon, even though an M-1's stop speed (80) is 15 MPH faster than an MP-54's.
The M-7s are supposedly going to have 1000hp AC traction motors on them. This will result in higher acceleration. However, the amazingly high weight of the cars is going to slow them down. I'm at a loss as to WHY they need to be 130,000 lbs, when the 90,000 lb M-1s meet existing FRA regs. I'm starting to think that Bombardier doesn't have Budd's engineering talent. Not to mention, has anyone noticed that the LIRR's keeping the body design under wraps? The only computer rendering I've seen of it shows a fairly unispiring design. I also question the sanity of the layout inside.
As far as the industrial design / styling , I would have gone to Sundberg-Ferar, who did the M-1s(Which were good, save for the windows). As far as the structural? I don't see why the MTA loves Bombardier so much, I don't think they're that talenated, and they've had quality problems too...
Oh well, here's to another series of uninspiring MUs for the LIRR...*clink*
The M-7s are supposedly going to have 1000hp AC traction motors on them.
You mean four 250 hp motors?
Yeah. Supposedly. It's rumor :)
All they had to do was copy the M-3. Bombardier has Budd the patent. I smell another DE/DM situation.
When the M3's arrived, solid 12-car consists of them would trip-off substations, so they mixed them with the M-1's. Then they segregated them again, but assigned them to shorter Brooklyn consists. I remember a 6 month period in 1987 when an M1 visited the West Hempstead branch no more than twice a day. Then they mixed them agin after Ronkonkoma electrifcation.
How would a solid 12 car train of M-3's trip off substations?
Well as far as not copying the M-3, the LIRR always has to be "different". Why go with a proven familiar design when we can go with a new untested one? Yup it's the same mentality that brought the DE/DM bi-level sets here. We could've just copied Metro-North but nooo, we had to be different!
The M-7's were heavier, had higher horsepower motors, and consumed more amperage. The same thing would happen with a 16 car M-1 at full speed.
"I Don't see why MTA loves Bombardier so much" its because of their technology and design at low cost,which no other company can match (except maybe GM if they gave it a shot) if that weren't the case, then the MTA wouldn't even bother with them. budd went because they were slightly behind in tech and they were price slightly higher.
the reason why the new M-7's are much heavier is because they are made with crumple zones more heavier frame to take damage better than its predecessor.
The speed will depend on traffic conditions, congestion, track condition, speed restrictions, GO's, and too many other factors to go into. They will not put in anything that will wind up costing a lot of money, and that you can bet on. Why spend the money on the riders when you can spend it on yourself?
I guess once LIRR upgrades the signals the MAS may be raised.
Don't hold your breath. They'll probably cut MAS as the heavier cars wear out the track and blow substations.
Again how does a train blow out a substation? I guess LIRR 3rd rail power distribution is very antiquated, well it does seem to appear that way. No wonder everytime there is a storm service gets cut when lightning hits those wooden or rusted metal poles carrying 3rd rail current.
DC by nature distributes very poorly relative to many thousand volts of AC. It needs lots of substations. A train consuming a lot of power causes voltage drops around it, and can trip off circuit breakers as well.
Dave:
I don't think it's my connection, but Subtalk has been very slow to load and slow to post. I checked my DSL connection and it's OK. Is it just me, and if so do I need to delete a cookie or something?
No, just too many people downloading messages & message lists at the same time.
No, you need to send money so I can host this on real hardware. :-)
(Just kidding, I really don't want to get into the donation business)
I thought you already were in the donation bussiness.
Have you sent one?
Seriously, the few people who have sent me money are for the most part getting something in return, e.g. web space of their own.
-Dave
I think it just goes to show the success of what you (Dave) have built. Even early in the morning it can be sluggish (obviously all those SubTalkers in Australia looking at the Sydney page :-)
Today at MIT a friend who is an undergraduate from Brooklyn asked ME if I've ever "seen" www.nycsubway.org -- he's not a railfan, just a typical college student in Boston homesick for NYC!
Should we start donating old PCs so you can load balance
on clusterised Redhat boxes? I only have one Sparc 10 but
still own several P90-133s... :-)
"...eeeeat cookie!!"
Sometimes it's fast, sometimes slow. For the fastest times try middays and late nights.
I was trying to access the site at about 1 PM today (Eastern Daylight Time) and I had to reload several times before I could even get the site to display! The server was so overloaded I couldn't even get the site to load.
Dan
That's odd... Come to think of it, the server does seem unusually croweded at 1-2PM (I tried it from school several times). Maybe another site at k2nesoft gives away money to the 1000th visitor after 1PM and people keep refreshing (or something like that).
The 4AM slot is pretty good, though...
I think the site was down for an hour or two around then. I couldn't access it, at least. I was in the middle of reading SubTalk at the time and, all of a sudden, I couldn't do anything. I kept trying periodically and eventually it came back up.
Can't beat the place for the price ... and I'm sure most of us are grateful enough that this place exists AT ALL to accept the realities.
Something I do that might be of use is to open another browser window, bring up another site to browse and while you end up waiting for a post to register or the next message to pop up, switch to the other browser screen and do some reading there. You'll see the button for the subtalk/nycsubway.org button flash when the screen appears.
I'd much rather sit and wait for my screens than sit and wait through hundreds of K of dancing jerky java and banner ads ... a small price to pay actually here ... VERY small ...
I agree, I usually attend to my email (which is backlogged as usual) while waiting for this site to do its thing in the background which I think is much better than having the dancing Java frog offering those great deals on used cars bouncing around the screen.
-Robert King
So it's not my connection! Well at least I'm not alone.
Hell. I'd pay you.
Also, it seems like the more messages that are being loaded, the longer it takes for the server to respond. I mean, it would make perfect sense that more messages would take longer to load, but it even takes longer to respond initially in the first place! I would like to load the entire message index, but whenever I load more than two months worth of messages, I always get a time-out error. Hey, Dave, isn't there some way you can rewrite the server so that it always responds immediately?
- Lyle Goldman
Two months of SubTalk is about 20,000 messages, give or take. I suspect even the most high-end servers will get bogged down with a request like that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Tony, it's been working just fine all the way out here to southern California.....maybe there's just a lot of traffic in the area you're in.
My website's message board has the same focus as SubTalk just with less activity. Go to The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway and then click the message board link to get there.
Harry
Webmaster
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Subtalk Live
Hello, SubTalkers!
AS you may or may not know, my(CWalNYC's) website, The Transit Page, has a message board called "TransitBoard", which has had a little bit of activity since it started in May. Anyone can chat and talk here, just keep it transit, just like here, OK? Thanks!
If you wanna see for yourself, just click here and click on "Transitboard" at the bottom of the home page.
Thanks, guys!
CWalNYC
P.S. for those of you who have not seen my website, here is a sample from my site.
I really wish someone would tell these dumb Motormen and C/R's that it is legal so i hear! Note: There are no more police in the station. Today i spent a whole 30 so minutes waiting for a Redbird to enter the loop with. I went thru the loop on a R62A on saturday. I saw it well, but i would really like it better if i saw it in a Redbird Railfan window. Anyways I was on a R36 Mainline on the 6. It reaches Brooklyn bridge. Stupid enuf of me, i decide to sit behind the Motorman, but some lady Motorman on the 4 train mouthed the words last stop thru her window. The Motorman then tells me to get off. I get off, then sneak in the second car right in time for the doors to close. I figured i would then walk to the first car. Anyways I go to the second car, only to have the Motorman full service the Train, come into the second car, and use his key to open the door. "I can't let u ride thru there because of safety reasons" "I might lose my job" So i gave up crossed to the uptown side and got on a uptown R62A on the 6.
THIS is not over!!! I will see the loop thru the eyes of a redbird if its the last thing i do
The Division of Rapid Transit Operations' page on NYCT's intranet (TENS) has a listing of Bulletins issued since 1997. It isn't a complete list, and it does not have Bulletins either establishing a ban on passengers riding through the City Hall Loop or rescinding such a ban. If anybody here has the Bulletin rescinding the ban on passengers riding through the City Hall loop (which was issued; it made the papers), please type it out here along with the Bulletin number.
David
E,
Citing yourself as a "Transit Museum docent"
it would seem (to me, atleast) you'd have
some form of "insider" backing to present
to the T/0 in question...
Printing up the Bulletin in text and with
referential number might give us all THE PASSPORT.
This thought also boggled me when you didn't
know when the UPCOMING Nostalgia Train Runs
were scheduled for-- yet you're a "museum docent"
at the VERY museum that schedules the runs.
:cx
I keep seeing the decrepit condition of the stations along the line (which luckily is getting renovated) I say to add more people to the line make the J train go to Brooklyn all the time along with the M. Make the J serve as a Brighton express to Brighton Beach or even to Coney Island and make the M train go there to along the B line. They cut down the J Line for no reason. Make the Z line go from Jamaica Center to 95th Street along with the R. Give the people in Brooklyn more east side access. It would be a cool idea. I say try it for 12 months and if it fails then cut it. The opportunity would be now with the shut down of the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge. It could give people to connection to Chinatown still. So businesses don’t go down the tubes. This could be what the doctor ordered. Make these lines work for the better of the city.
Let's see. Alot of this was tried already.
The J used to be known as the QJ and used to run all the way to Coney Island via the Brighton Local. What a haul that used to be. Then they terminated the QJ at Broad Street, made it the J, and ran the M to Coney Island via the Brighton Local.
Since the closing of the Broadway side of the Manhattan Bridge, the M currently runs to and from Bay Parkway during rush hours along the B.
I used to take the M home from my job on Wall Street because these trains were not too full even during rush hours. Why run them all the time?
There used to be an RJ service which I believed ran from 168th Street/Jamaica (old J terminal) to 95th Street/Brooklyn (current R terminal). Then it was cut back and became special RR service to and from Chambers Street - 95th Street during rush hours.
If you want to get to Chinatown after the flip, take the Q or W to Canal.
All these services were discontinued or modified because of lack of ridership. What should be done is bring back the Chrystie Street connection between the Bway Bklyn and 6th Avenue. Run the V out to Eastern Parkway or Metropolitan Avenue instead of 2nd Avenue.
You have quite a memory! You are right about the RJ train, but it was only a temporary service until they added a couple of switches north of Chambers St so that they could store layups on the former Nassau loop tracks. When the switches were completed, they discontinued the RJ and replaced it with the RR Chambers St-4th Ave local. I remember standing on the platform at Dekalb Ave and trying to write down the avalanche of trains passing through it in the rush hour- 4 tracks across the Manhattan bridge, plus the two tunnel tracks!
As far as inproving service to the Grand St area, I think they should run the M to Bay Parkway or Ninth Avenue, Brooklyn between rush hours, as well as rush hours. That would provide about 14 hours of service between Bowery (the closest station to Grand St)and downtown Brooklyn weekdays.
< All these services (QJ, RJ) were discontinued or modified because of lack of ridership. What should be done is bring back the Chrystie Street connection between the Bway Bklyn and 6th Avenue. Run the V out to Eastern Parkway or Metropolitan Avenue instead of 2nd Avenue. >
Chrystie Street connection between the Bway Bklyn and 6th Avenue wasn't used much either. As for the V onto the Eastern Division, it would have to be 8 cars of 60 footers, which is not feasible. It is to get full length consists of R46's, and they can't run on the Eastern Divison.
Once again you have to under stand why the KK did not work. First off,it was an rush hour local from 57 st 6 ave, all the way to Jamaica[168 st Jamaica ave].the concept was on target,but the way the line was used was wrong.The idea of having to travel down townvia the Nassau st subway to get uptown kindof buggs me[i call it backtrackin'up]. the KK if it was an 24 hour service would have worked,if it were express in Brooklyn/Queens,more riders would have used it with out a doute if only to avoid the Delancey/Essex complex[transfering to the F train down stairs]with a more than direct connection to middtown. Not only that, the use of the R1-9 cars didnt help any. These cars provided almost ALL service,while other lines were getting newer cars with that sweet air- conditioning. So as you can see, with the way the T.A. operated this line no wonder it didnt last.
If you want to get to Chinatown after the flip, take the Q or W to Canal
That would be resonable, but its pretty far of a walk especially for people whos buisness is near grand street. This option with the J and M and Z going all to Brooklyn gives people the important option of having 5 stops near Chinatowns Core Area. Instead of the 1 offered witht the Q and W
Right. And since you can change for the J/M/Z at Canal St., there is not even the excuse about how slow it is to go through the tunnel.
But for those who really insist on going to Grand St., the following will work:
TO Grand St.: Instead of getting off at Canal St., stay on the arriving Q or W train to 14th St. Change for a southbound #6 train to Bleecker St., and get the Grand St. shuttle downstairs.
FROM Grand St.: Take the shuttle to B'way-Lafayette and change for the (southbound) #6 train. Take it two stops to Canal St. and get the Q or W over the bridge.
I know alot of people may be confused, but I still won't complain about the closure on the A/B tracks. That's small potatoes compared to the LI Bus woes!
Not to mention the fact that the Blecker St uptown station is also planned to be connected to Bway Lafayette in the 2000-2004 Cap. Program
That's it!! Extending service along Nassau Street to De Kalb Avenue and beyond may solve a lot of problems, including getting more people to use the long-neglected Bowery Station.
While it may be true that the old QJ service got low usage, that may have been because the Grand Street connection to 6th Avenue was in place by that time.
I think this plan is certainly worth a try.
One option here is to have the J/Z take the place of the R, which would terminate at Whitehall. Of course, many people would regret the ability to ride directly to Midtown on the Broadway line, but that's a slow ride. There will be plenty of Broadway service on the express track.
The reason why the QJ didnt work was caused by the the T.A itself. The line was all local during he middays no P.M skip stop/express service after Eastern Pky to Jamaica and local on the Brighton. all to gether that was 55 stop for the train operators. Abit much.one might say,but with no real express service during the midday, the QJ was just plain too long a ride for passager and operater alike. Alot could have been done to save this line, but wasnt about to save anything in those days. It was all about cut and slash. Its true that these lines could be used today[with the proper modifications,along with the 6 avenue Broadway/Brooklyn connection]and most likly be used by the riding public if givin the opertunity. But with the TA's present mentality,I doute if anything like this would happen.
The reason why the QJ didnt work was caused by the the T.A itself. The line was all local during he middays no P.M skip stop/express service after Eastern Pky to Jamaica and local on the Brighton. all to gether that was 55 stop for the train operators. Abit much.one might say,but with no real express service during the midday, the QJ was just plain too long a ride for passager and operater alike. Alot could have been done to save this line, but wasnt about to save anything in those days. It was all about cut and slash. Its true that these lines could be used today[with the proper modifications,along with the 6 avenue Broadway/Brooklyn connection]and most likly be used by the riding public if givin the opertunity. But with the TA's present mentality,I doute if anything like this would happen.
Chinatown isn't complaining about service to Brooklyn, but the fact that the only train from Grand St will be going one stop to Bway Lafayette and that's it
Yeah they are, its a huge concern. Because alot of places are booming with a huge Asian Population. (I think it's Park Slope) and they need a connection to Chinatown. That what the major concern is about the Manhattan Bridge closing down presents. The Q and W will not be the saving grace. The J,M,Z are the closest Lines there so might as well extend them into brooklyn and once again offer the people the key connection. It will be worth it. The people who live in the Bronx or Upper Manhattan or Queens dont have this problem cause they only need to transfer the S to go directly into Grand Street. For the people who need to go to Chinatown who live in brooklyn the Q and W will get them close and then they have to deal with a long walk and Canal Street.
Fine then: the J and Z should run into Brooklyn on the rush, and the M should terminate at Broad or Chambers all times {except when it terminates at Myrtle.}
Then this should happen:
Kill Diamond Q, run a lot more circle Qs and make circle Q express with Z local on Brighton
J replaces M on 4th Ave/West End
The reason why the J/Z are going into Brooklyn is because of complaints that there should be no difference between the J/Z except for the skip-stop.
I was railfanning at BWI Rail Station this afternoon. I saw a wierd thing. When Acela Express #2183 (power cars 2030-2031) was passing through the station, front power car 2031 did not raised its pantograph, and the whole trainset was supplied by the pantograph of rear power car 2030. Usually both power cars raise their pantograph.
Is raising one pantograph good enough to maintain the high-speed operation? Train #2183 was delayed by 5 to 10 minutes.
Also, from TGV trainsets, when they are running at high speeds, they only raised one pantograph per trainset. Since Acela Express employs TGV technologies, just to bring this interesting observation.
Chaohwa
ACELA's do not have a train bus line like the TGV's do. W/ only one pan raised only one power car was under power.
Which I've heard is becomming a common sight too. And MN isn't happy about it ever since one entered MN territory on one motor and died in Stamford, tieing up the rush hour. I believe (sl)Amtrak is now required to report all trains with dead or partially dead motors to MN upon entry.
I've notice that the Amfreaks in various forums have stopped bragging about Acela Express as of late, and rumors are starting to roam. latest I heard is the new schedule that's comming places the express at only 5 - 10 minutes faster than conventional consists.
"Attention all passengers. The reason for your 2 hour delay is a dead Amtrak ACELA Express train on track 1. As per new Metro North policy, all passengers are encouraged to work themselves into a fury and go and push the train off the tracks and down the embankment. Pitchforks and torches will be provided by your train crew in the food service car near the front of this train. Thank you for you attention."
Hey - knowing Metro-North - that just MIGHT happen! ;)
The Acela Express trainsets shoud be rebuilt to use overhead power and third rail power. BTW the Acela cars shoud have solar panels to keep the lights working.
BTW the Acela cars shoud have solar panels to keep the lights working.
Good idea. The whole corridor should be floodlit so the panels will work at night.
Plus batteries would be attached to some of the solar panels.
As for third rail power - why? There's no reason for it.
As for solar panels - why not just charge batteries with the HEP and use that for the lights while off of HEP power? Much more effective, much much much ccheaper.
Maybe you should use pantographs, third rails and solar pannels to keep your brain working.
You're nitpicking a bit much about Acela (that's common on Subtalk). Of course, 30 years ago, tech-nerds told people that the Metroliner was a piece of worthless junk because it didn't reach 150 mph (never mind that, after some work, it gave a very respectable performance even when compared to European and Japanese railways of the same times). Of course, that kind of rock-throwing isn't limited to trains. The Apollo program, the F-14 Tomcat and the USS Nautilus endured similar treatment.
Obviously, that tradition for mindless rock-throwing continues.
The Express Metroliner ran a two and a half hour schedule between NY and Washington running non-stop (if I recall correctly, they only ran one of those a day in either direction). If the Acela can do that with a stop in Philly thrown in (and it can), it is already a significant improvement over the Metroliner. Throw in other stops, like Baltimore, and it gets better still.
As to the dead motors, well, I agree that's a problem, and it has to be worked out. I don't see that as a disaster, though, because ultimately, it will.
/*You're nitpicking a bit much about Acela (that's common on Subtalk).*/
No. Acela was sold to the public as a *3 hour train*. We were told Acela would "revolutionize" travel in the northeast. I don't consider a 15 minute savings, a big jump in price, and an 80's vintage ride and ameities to be a revolution.
/* Of course, 30 years ago, tech-nerds told people that the Metroliner was a piece of worthless junk because it didn't reach 150 mph (never mind that, after some work, it gave a very respectable performance even when compared to European and Japanese railways of the same times).*/
The Metroliner was a flop because it was unreliable, plain and simple. It was in fact very comperable to Euro and Japanese trains of the era. All forward progress stopped when Amtrak came in, and instead of HSR, we got conventional trains being hauled by imported locomotives.
/*Of course, that kind of rock-throwing isn't limited to trains. The Apollo program, the F-14 Tomcat and the USS Nautilus endured similar treatment. */
I don't recall ever reading any real critisism of the Apollo, other than a statistical study (using what were valid techniques at the time), determined that they had a 1 in 50 chance of getting there and back alive. But Apollo
was more an excercise in systems reliability than anything else.
To compare the Apollo project to the Acela is hilarious at best. For starters, the Apollo program consisted of a LOT of testing, and R&D, long before the first spacecraft for it were built. It consisted of lots of research, plenty of dead ends, and lots of money.
Acela, was simply an attempt to americanize a European technology (i.e. make it overcomplicated, overweight, overbudget and oversold). It cosisted of almost no R&D, testing, or realistic study. It was mostly marketing flap over a fancy train that tilted. Very little actualy work was done on the ROW, and very little vehicle testing was involved (which is why the trainsets were so flawed initially). There were no prototypes, no "dry runs", and very poor management.
To expect a few billion dollars to be dumped into what was singularly sold as *high speed rail*, and get alost nothing in return, is simply a waste.
/*
As to the dead motors, well, I agree that's a problem, and it has to be worked out. I don't see that as a disaster, though, because ultimately, it will.
*/
It's either poor reliability (take guesses why...), or poor maintenance. Not a disaster, but an indication that something's not right.
All forward progress stopped when Amtrak came in, and instead of HSR, we got conventional trains being hauled by imported locomotives.
More like all the forward progress stopped when I-95 was built and rail travel became unprofitable.
"The Metroliner was a flop because it was unreliable, plain and simple. It was in fact very comperable to Euro and Japanese trains of the era. All forward progress stopped when Amtrak came in, and instead of HSR, we got conventional trains being hauled by imported locomotives."
All of which continue to dominate the NY-Wash market. And the pulled trains were cleared to travel 15 mph faster than the original equipment! That's not a flop, Philip, that's a stunning success. The verdict is not in yet about Bos-NY, but ridership increases there look pretty good.
As for Acela, well, if they keep the same 2.5 hour total trip time, but start adding station stops, that is more than enough to validate the concept.
The only "flop" left will be the guys throwing rocks...
It depends which "side" you are on. I've had three round-trips on AE from Boston to NYC. Each has been on time, and a pleasure to ride. The last return trip, in particlar stands out -- We flew by I-95 traffic which was dead stopped, and up above, severe thunderstorms brought air traffic to a screeching halt (on the ground :-). AE from BOS-NYP is an hour faster than AR. Now if only the infrastructure improvements on the rail and overhead can get done, the ride will go from 3-1/2 hours to 3 hours.
The new schedules as of July 9 inlclude five round-trips weekdays, and three round-trips weekends BOS-NYP, with the same travel times as in the current schedule.
Thanks for your contribution, Todd. Like most of the posters before you, I find little consolation in the performance of the new trains. Selling them mostly on speed was probably not the best of ideas. This not-so-shy railroad advocate has discovered that most Americans are completely ignorant regarding American railroads and do not know that there is really only one national passenger railroad left - Amtrak. Most of them share Jay Leno's mentality. Have you ever heard the press report that a vehicle obstructed a train instead of the train hitting the vehicle at a grade crossing? It's always the train that "hits" the motor vehicle...never the motor vehicle that blocks the train. A fair part of Acela's improved performance between New York and Boston has not been due to technological advances, but to the elimination of the "bring in the clowns" act at New Haven, where the splitting or union of a train was an act of great novelty on each occasion. The Amtrak crews at New Haven (and the ones in Albany are no different) use too many people to do too little work at a pace so slow as to be mind-boggling. Years ago passenger railroads not only changed engines (big deal!), but car-knockers checked all the journals, the mail and baggage were attended to, butchers sold all kinds of things to the passengers, and the train got out of the station in less than half the time Amtrak takes today.
Thanks for your contribution, Todd. Like most of the posters before you, I find little consolation in the performance of the new trains. Selling them mostly on speed was probably not the best of ideas. This not-so-shy railroad advocate has discovered that most Americans are completely ignorant regarding American railroads and do not know that there is really only one national passenger railroad left - Amtrak. Most of them share Jay Leno's mentality. Have you ever heard the press report that a vehicle obstructed a train instead of the train hitting the vehicle at a grade crossing? It's always the train that "hits" the motor vehicle...never the motor vehicle that blocks the train. A fair part of Acela's improved performance between New York and Boston has not been due to technological advances, but to the elimination of the "bring in the clowns" act at New Haven, where the splitting or union of a train was an act of great novelty on each occasion. The Amtrak crews at New Haven (and the ones in Albany are no different) use too many people to do too little work at a pace so slow as to be mind-boggling. Years ago passenger railroads not only changed engines (big deal!), but car-knockers checked all the journals, the mail and baggage were attended to, butchers sold all kinds of things to the passengers, and the train got out of the station in less than half the time Amtrak takes today.
I was on the 2030/2031 trainset today on train 2153 and at Penn Station in NYC, we had a circuit breaker not working in 2031. I don't know more than that though...
..... on eBay, item numbers: 1155780264, 1157053357, 1157056014, 1157058610, 1157059163 and 1157059428. Enjoy!
Hi Everybody I am new on this board I would like to know if I could ride on this board?
I am Seven the crazy Graffiti Vandal and Urban Explorer, All the real hardcore railfans hat eme because I am always for the unpopular and unorthodox (fun shit) begin hating me now, welcome aboard this trainto Grand Hell
>welcome aboard this trainto Grand Hell <
Don't you mean Grand St?
Dan
soon to be Yes
Hi Everybody I am new on this board I would like to know if I could ride on this board?
I don't see why not. As long as you're on topic which would be rail related. This isn't a private club.
Any questions or report anything subway or commuter rail, fire away !
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone know what is the steepest banked turn for the subway is. And I dont mean 90 Degree turns. Ive noticed on the IRT 4,5 express Tracks by Spring Street they bank to the side a lot. And what is the steepest Incline/ decline for a set of tracks in the System? Anyone have an Idea??
Oooo! Vertical 8and* horizontal radiuses ... I know someone whose spacesuit will be feeling a bit tight on that one. Heh.
The long awaited reconstruction of Chicago's Douglas L gets underway this summer. Take a long hard look at its older stations for soon they will be gone. As for myself, I hope to get back out there sometime this Fall and bring back a few more souvenirs for my mantlepiece in Baltimore.
E_DOG
When the reconstruction is complete, CTA is going to have to seriously add trains to the Blue Line schedule. As it is, there are typically eight trains an hour (in each direction) on the main line of the Blue. That means on the weekend, when the Cermak (Douglas) branch is closed, all eight trains use the Forest Park (Congress) branch. But during the week, half (four) use the Forest Park branch and half go down the Cermak branch. Four trains an hour in weekday service seems pretty sparse to me, even by Chicago standards. :^)
You have to figure that that's part of the equation. Let's face it, since they closed weekend service on the Douglas there was a lesser need for so many trains. When it's rehabbed, I suspect that it will be one of the faster routes, thus necesitating more rolling stock. Only time will tell though.
E_DOG
Heard two things on the news tonight, MNRR New Haven line was shut down this afternoon for two hours due to fallen wire. Also there was a tear gas release in the W4th station which closed it for an hour. they didn't say when that happened, but I was in the area this afternoon and W4th seemed a bit emptier than usual.
About MNRR problem, those overhead wires have their drawbacks. I personally like 3rd rail, it's more reliable. Now if only LIRR would bury all those motive AC and signal wires.
Catenary looks so much cooler though!
As for the West 4th incident, I was on the first F to go through after reopening at about 2 PM.
Yeah agree the catenary looks cooler but in storms and stuff they fail alot. The MNRR New Haven line trains can run on both 3rd rail and overhead, so maybe equipping a few tracks on the line with 3rd rail as a back-up would help improve reliability.
They could repower the New Haven with 3rd rail, but then that would pose even greater financial problems on an already anemic Amtrak. They would have to equip their huge fleet of AEM - 7s with not only pantographs for the NY - DC run, but shoes for the hop from NY to NH. That's a whole lot of FRA controversey the MTA is not going to get itself mixed up in.
There's another issue ... state of Connecticut *PROHIBITS* third rail operation. Sacred cows and the like. Up here in upstate New York, we like our cow meat well done, no longer mooing if possible. :)
Wow Connecticut must have something in common with Sea Cliff! Sounds like my area's excuse for aging, pothole ridden roads.
You can't resurface the roads the oils from the runoff will kill the fishes and birds in the Harbor. That's something fresh out of the mind of a typical Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor member.
After the meeting she'll drive home in her huge gas guzzling SUV.
That's OK ... soon there will be oil wells. :)
Yeah, and while she's driving home she'll probably smoke nonstop like a chimney and toss her cigarette butts all over the highway! Some people make me sick!
I was at 34 St/Bway around 2pm when a R46 F pulled into the downtown express track, and at the same time a R68A B pulled into the uptown local track. For a moment I thought I was at the 34 St/6th Ave platform.
Wow so they did reroute some trains. The B must've had to turn somewhere unless it went to Queens. But what about 8th avenue?
Since nothing happened on the tracks it would've made more sense just to bypass the station. Man why do I miss out on these wacky reroutes?
I had just boarded a 7 express around 2pm at TS after riding an R up from Canal. Didn't see anything unusual.
I heard about the incident at West Fourth Street. From what I heard, a man had robbed a bank, and the money bag had tear gas in it, so when he dropped it, the tear gas got released and affected everyone in the station.
Could someone please tell me when this incident happened and how the trains were rerouted?
- Lyle Goldman
And someone tell me what bank and what they did to this bastard.
Hopefully, the cops caught up and arrested the guy.
I would assume they just bypassed the station.
I arrived at W.4th southbound around 1 PM. Just as the doors were closing, somebody held the doors in the first car. Turns out it was a plain clothes cop. He told me that a bank was robbed upstairs and that some of the money (when I worked as a teller we called it "decoy money") had some kind of chemical or mace which could explode. They thought that the perp was on my train. So they searched and took some guy off, but I doubt if it was him. NYPD released my train and we proceeded to WTC. While I was changing ends there, word came over the radio for all trains to bypass W4th. When I reached Spring St., word came over the radio to evacuate all passengers out of W4th station. As I was passing thru, passengers were walking up toward the exits with FD and NYPD assisting. By the time I reached 34th, word came over the radio for all trains coming toward W4th to stop and stay, no trains would be allowed to pass thru. I do not know if any substance actually exploded. I made it back to Jamaica along with my follower. That was the last E train for awhile. Service was suspended for 45 minutes to an hour. Needless to say, the incident caused extensive delays thruout the entire B division. The only place to re-route was via the BMT Broadway subway, F trains went via the G line in both directions, all services went on extended headways. It pretty much straighted out for the PM rush, except there was signal trouble around 3:30 PM on D3 track at 63rd Drive.
Apparently, the robber picked up a bag with a dyeing device that they use to trap capers. Gas came out of this bag when he opened it. And since Murphy's law was in effect, he escaped while several passengers were overcome by the fumes. That's what did the trick.
Can any of you who used to or currently work for the MTA answer a question for me??? Does the Transit Authority have room anywhere for a 31 year old with a Liberal Arts degree,5+ years in banking, 2+ years in Retail before that, who's looking for a career change and a would give his eye teeth to move back to NYC???
Yeah, I'd say so. If you look at the NYCT Website you'll find dozens of office jobs being offered.
If you've got eye teeth then I think there are several universities and biotech companies who might want you more...
Dan
While riding the Oyster Bay train to Jamaica things were slow going after Queens Village. Lots of work going on, we were wrong railed to the E/B express track. They were pulling up ties around Jamaica and lots of hyrailers around. Those tracks around Jamaica are rough and the wooden ties are rotted out. The new concrete ties are arriving just in time.
Also on the MU train into Penn we used the second eastbound tunnel. The switch where I saw track gone last weekend was already replaced with conctrete ties and the ride was noticably smoother.
"we were wrong railed to the E/B express track."
John, you were not wrong-railed. That track is reverse signalled, accepting traffic in both directions. As for the rest of your posting, I think it's a case of mind over matter!
I could've sworn on a stack of Bibles that there was supposed to be tile there, at least in one direction. All there was was black-on-white square signs reading "Bergen" on the columns, and a few EXIT / NO EXIT signs. The walls seemed to be painted yellow, like the columns, or that may have been an effect of the poor lighting. The station has to be the last underground with fully incandescent lighting at platform level (except for the exit stairs and two fluorescent tubes in the middle of nowhere).
I was on the first revenue train to go through, though an R-46 F (OOS) wrong-railed through before we were to enter. I think it was the same one (8:59 Fox 179) that reported long brakes at Queens Plaza and was sent lite down the G line supposedly to relay at Bedford Nostrand.
I heard the TA wasn't maintaining the station too well and a large portion of the tile fell. Large, problematic water condition. Someone decided to tear it all down. Take a look at the movie "Jacob's Ladder" to see Bergen lower before the butcher job.
That water condition existed for over thirty years, and I remember seeing it back in the late 1960's. The mentality at 370 Jay St. still remains "If we do not see it, it does not exist". A few cents not spent today could become millions of dollars that must be spent tomorrow.
Yes indeed! You must be an employee. For years the TW/O's were getting sick. Walking dead. The smelly, leaking back wall. Heard a story of how the TA reportedly put dye into the sewer system several blocks away to try to find the source. The dye came into the tower. Like you said, this was done after dozens of employees fell sick.
Can anyone tell me when those m-7s run and on what LIRR branch? I've never ridden one. Do they run on the Rockaway line. I thought the double-deckers were the newest stuff. Well, they're the newest diesels.
The M-7s haven't been delivered yet :(
You'll hear when they are though.
Are the F's stopping there?
No. The station is not in any condition to have trains stop there.
They've built concrete-walled storage rooms on the platforms...
The new MTH R-21 Subway sets are sure sharp looking cars. The addition of the car-end pantographs really adds to their appearance.
Unfortunately the space between cars that is needed on turns is huge, and it is apparently caused by the pantographs. A passenger who desired to pass between cars on these O gauge models would have to be of the caliber of an Olympic broad jumper.
It's too bad that MTH could not have designed a pantograph that compressed against the car the way the real ones do!
You only need those large couplers if you use 27-inch or 31-inch diameter curves. If you use 42-inch or larger, you can use the shorter couplers. For some reason, MTH put a total of four short, non-operating couplers in their R-21 sets as optional accessories. You need at least six to have a more realistic clearance on a four-car set' you need 14 if you want to link two four-car sets together.
I called the MTH parts department and they are already sold out of short couplers. I back-ordered a bunch.
The instruction book indicates that you have to operate on O-54 or larger to use the short couplers.
It really doesn't matter, because the set's owner has all O-31 curves. I am having difficulty making him understand that if we put the short couplers on, the pantographs will be broken on the first turn.
If you are using 0-27 curves, use the couplers as supplied. If you use 0-31 curves, you can interchange ONE short coupler and mate it with a long coupler to bring the cars closer together (this is why MTH supplied the four short couplers in the set). If you have 0-42 or larger curves, you can use TWO short couplers mated. The instructions say 0-54 or larger, but that is conservative.
As regards to why MTH didn't opt to make a "collapsible" gate, economy and durability played a role. In the concept stage of these models, MTH considered a "disappearing" type sprung gate similar to that used on the MTS Imports HO scale R-32's. This would have worked very well, but it turned out to be too expensive for a "toy" train (the MTS models are hand built brass limited run scale models). Flexible rubber gates were considered, but these would have proved troublesome on "S" curves. Other options were too delicate and would not stand up to the anticipated handeling that these models are expected to recieve (after all, they are marketed as "toys"). So, in the end, the semi-collapsed rigid brass stampings were used. Interesting note: the pilot models were built with gates that were not as collapsed as the production run. These proved troublesome on 0-42 curves when track was not perfectly level. A late change was made to make the gates more collapsed in production to assure proper clearances. Now you have the complete story from one of the "outsiders" that helped with this project. I hope you enjoy your models anyway! BTW-be sure to order a set of the new R-17's which will have the proper round split window storm door and 1970's era MTH silver and blue color scheme for variety!
I tried running the cars (by hand) on a test track composed of 42-inch curves, and the gates SOMETIMES touched each other. I guess they chose the 54-inch curve clearance as a recommendation to play it safe.
BTW: I noticed that some of the "long" couplers were longer than others. I think this might be a quality control error: They shipped the models with THREE different-sized couplers!!
I doesn't matter, since I'll use the short ones, anway.
Three different length couplers!!! I was surprised to see the dummys in the styrofoam, but I did not notice the different length couplers on the cars. I'll have to check on that when I visit him this weekend.
I'll run a test then too. I assume that the conversion is as easy as it was on the R-42s!
That's news to me! The "long" shank couplers on my models are longer than the "long" couplers on the R-42's, but they are all the same in four different sets. Of course, the long "magnetic" couplers between cars are a different length than the Proto Coupler on the motor car.
Thanks for the advice, Frank! None of the sets are mine. I converted six cars of the R-42 D train for one friend, and four cars of the R-42 E train for another. The D train owner got the R-21's, and wanted me to convert them as I did the D. I think he now understands the problem with them as to his O-31 curves.
I am sort of puzzled as to why MTH put operating couplers on any of the subway sets to begin with. The few people that I know never use or need the capability of automatically uncoupling their subway sets, and I would think that the majority of the market would feel the same way. MTH could have saved money, and put dummy couplers (long or short shank on everything), in the first place. I am assuming of course that it costs more to make an operating coupler than it does to make a dummy!
I agree with you Karl. However, I'm sure that if MTH didn't offer operating couplers on the sets, someone, somewhere would still complain. Oh well, you can't please everybody all the time!
As a hobbyist type in another gauge, one would think folks would be grateful enough to have genuine subway style carbodies, and if the pantos aren't what they wanted, cut them off and cob up their own retrofits, similar to the coupler issue. The various whinings (not pointing at any one in particular) would only encourage someone who is willing to do such a limited interest project in the first place seriously consider doing more.
I'd give my left nut to have anything that really looked like NYCTA issue in N gauge ... closest I ever got to city subway cars in N gauge was Kato 10-363's which looks sorta like R16's on the sides (of course they never issued them in Red, only yellow, green and turquoise) but have ends that don't look anything like NYCTA - wide cab, window from side to side ... them's MY subway cars (4 sets of 4 cars each) and is about all I could find. And rooftop pantographs which sorta looks out of place.
Just a thought ...
Please see the Images Replicas web site (you can access this through the "Transfer Station" section of this web site. Jack LaRussa has made R-62's in N scale as well as importing R-32's in nickel plated brass - verrry nice, but a tad expensive (isn't all brass?). The -32's may be sold out, but you can probably find a set at the Red Caboose (buyer beware!) or The Caboose in Wolcott, CT (highly recommended). These are unpowered, but you could probably use the KATO drive units for power. BTW, did you know that the KATO 103 Series cars are NOT subway cars, but Japanese "commuter" cars (like our Long Island RR or Metro North). The colors are prototypical. The green (or "uguisu" in Japanese - "nightengale") is for the Yamanote Line, the famous elevated loop line around Tokyo. The yellow is for the Soubu Line and the turquoise is for the Keiyo Line. They also make these in orange for the Chuo Line. All are Tokyo area commuter lines that operate on British Imperial narrow gauge. Gambatte! (Japanese for "keep at it - do your best!")
Heh. Thanks for the aside. I sent pictures of the 10-363's to a fellow subtalker ... in the VAGUEST of ways, they sorta look almost like R16's on the sides, but the ends are just *NOT* subway. But hey, they were all I could find from the usual sources (remember, I'm in the cowpastures of upstate New York where "Trains Unlimited" was about as good as it got) and since I was looking for something a bit more complicated than Thomas the Tank Engine, I was scrod (past pluperfect tense of 'screwed') ...
So the wiffie (our CEO here) wanted to get me something sorta subway like (since I had YET to discover tubtalk) and she called around to all of the hobby dealers from coast to coast looking for anything subway-like in N gauge) and found a dealer out in Queens that had these things and didn't say, "subway? NYC subway? Are you frigging NUTS? NOBODY does NYCTA ... never seen it, never heard of it" ... so here I am ... and that was back in the days when software companies made some money so that's my trainset. It's nice enough, I'm not so picky. :)
Now what would REALLY be the teats would be a ten car train of R4's but that would mean brass and well ... do the math. I'd have to hawk an AWFUL LOT of software for me to get something like that as a bonus. Though if I were to be able to get such, that'd be my ultimate treat. I don't give a honk about anything newer than an R11 myself. :)
Good observation, with which yours truly strongly agrees.
Thanks for that information. Are the R17's in any catalog yet?
Here's the Link:
MTH 2001 Volume III
That didn't work. Try it manually:
http://204.156.4.220/thethird/detail.asp?item=30-2211-1
I saw a dealer copy of the Vol III catalog, and the picture in there looked very nice. It did look just like the R-21, except for the porthole window in the storm door, and the fact that they will be painted silver with a blue stripe. The paint scheme will be very similar to The R-42 D train of two or three years ago. There may have been other differences, but I didn't notice them due to the short time I could look at the catalog. I did notice that there was a $50.00 price increase over the R-21, in that the MSRP for the Protosounds 2 version would be $349.95.
Did any of you pick this up yet? I got one this morning, and showed it to some of my classmates. Apparently, the brass reneged on its attempt to cut Grand Street of the map for the next couple of years. They supposedly have an "S" that will go from 21st St in Queens to Bway - Lafayette (6 Av local), and then another "S" that goes from Bway - Lafayette to Grand. Sounds good and appeasing, esp. to the Chinese down there since the other side of the brochure was printed in Chinese.
There's a problem, though. How are they going to pull off the 21st St "S" when the Connector is due to open to the "F" line in August? Is the re-instatement a hoax? If I'm beating a dead horse, tell me.
Probably what will happen is that the 21st St Shuttle will be eliminated and replaced by the F while the V will take the F's place in the 53rd St tunnel. Why don't they just call the 21st Shuttle the V? That way they can get people used to it sooner.
That doesn't make any sense. People need to get used to the F running on 63rd and the V on 53rd, because that will be the permanent arragement. Why confuse them with any other (temporary)arrangement?
The S to 21st St indicates that the 63rd Street Connector will not open in August because if it will be opened in August, the arrangement should consider that issue too.
They will publish another brochure fot the 63rd St connector arrangement I think. This is the only way to solve the problem.
P.S.:I wonder how do MTA translate these changes into Chinese?
A couple extra thousand dollars because of misinformation and the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. How is it going to rub off on riders when that "S" becomes the "V" due to two different long term diversions?
This will be the test of how intellegent the New Yorkers are. If they can reconise such complicated chances, they are really "intellegent".
P.S.:As I'm not a New Yorker, could you sketch the outline of this bourchure for me? Send it in my email provided here please.
If we sent it to your email, nobody else would be able to see it!
Page 1:
Manhattan Bridge Service Changes
B D Q W
The NYC Department of Transportation is starting the final stage of the Manhattan Bridge rehabilitation. This means trains that cross the bridge must run on the Broadway N R tracks instead of the Sixth Avenue tracks in Manhattan. It also means you need to get ready for major service changes. Find travel information for each borough inside.
Page 2:
Service Highlights
B and D trains run between their Bronx terminals and 34th/Herald Sq. B D Q trains between Manhattan and Brooklyn are now known as the W Q and trains and run up Broadway to terminate at 57th/7th. Transfer between the two sections can be made at 34th.
New 6th Ave. shuttle runs from 21st. Queensbridge to Bway/Lafayette. Grand St. Shuttle runs from Grand St. to Bway Lafayette.
Page 3:
Brooklyn
Outlines the fact that W Q and stop at all former B D and Q stations in Brooklyn ad nauseam. Trains run express on Broadway. Chart at bottom of page tells how to get to new stations.
Page 4:
Bronx and Queens
B and D trains in the Bronx run as normal and terminate at 34th/Herald Sq.
Sixth Ave. Shuttle makes all stops between 21st/Queensbridge and Bway/Lafayette.
W trains run peak direction express in Astoria.
Page 5:
Manhattan
Blah blah blah more information about the two-section trains and nothing that hasn't been said already.
Page 7:
Map of the new services.
Dan
How is it going to rub off on riders when that "S" becomes the "V" due to two different long term diversions?
The "S" won't become the "V". The (V) will be taking the old route of the (F), through the 53rd St tunnel, while the (F) runs through the new 63rd St connector.
You wanna know something really backward? I was at 34th St/Herald Square on Saturday, and there wasn't a single poster about the changes there, nor any brochures. You'd think that station more than any other would have the information.
:-) Andrew
1. Grand Street station was N-E-V-E-R to be closed during the Manhattan Bridge "flip." That was a red herring perpetrated by "representatives" in the Chinatown area, including local politicians, designed to scare people.
2. The 63rd Street Connector's opening (to scheduled service) has been delayed until November. The 63rd Street Shuttle is correctly described in the brochure.
David
Beating a dead horse is secondary to the fact that they'll probably not run the shuttle to Queensbridge once the F starts running through. It may just be an oversight.
My question: Why can't they run the Sixth Ave. Shuttle all the way to Grand St? Running two shuttles seems like a really dumb idea.
Dan
"My question: Why can't they run the Sixth Ave. Shuttle all the way to Grand St? Running two shuttles seems like a really dumb idea."
Since when have you known the MTA to do anything smart? If there were smart people down at Livingston and Jay Streets, there would be a switch just south of Bway - Lafayette on the Chrystie street tracks to facilitate such a service.
no place to switch tracks at Grand Street.
--Mark
Because current TA operating practices don't allow for such operation.
Notice that I didn't say it can't be done. It can -- if the TA is willing to try something different.
There are no crossovers between the NB and SB tracks south of Broadway-Lafayette. That means that trains will have to single-track from W4 to Grand and back. Typical TA practice is for a train to idle at its terminal for a few minutes as the crew takes a break and changes ends. Since, once a train passes W4, the next train can't proceed past that point until that first train reemerges at W4, this would result in long headways.
There's an easy solution: have an extra T/O board in the last car at B-L. At Grand, the first T/O becomes the extra and the new T/O takes over, pulling out immediately. The new extra gets off at B-L and walks to the other end of the platform while waiting for the next SB train to arrive. (All Grand Street service at B-L would be on the SB platform.)
This would be both cheaper and more useful than the planned split shuttle service, but it requires changing standard procedure, so it's not even considered.
Once 63rd Street is fully opened, the V could terminate at Grand rather than at 2nd Avenue.
There is a switch between the Northbound Express and Southbound express tracks. It's west of Broadway-Lafayette.
Presumebly, the ridership at Grand doesn't warrant that.
What they should do is x out of every y shuttles where x equals the number of trains per hour (TPH) needed at Grand and y equals the TPH required on the rest of the route from Bway-Laffyette to Queensbridge relay at Grand. This way, thru service is provided on those trains only. All other 6th Avenue S trains should relay at 2nd Avenue after discharging at Bway-Laffyette.
can anyone send me a brochure,,I dont use the Subway ,,at all
Thank you
Steve
They’re all over the Subway. Need a snail-mail address and I can send you one.
John
There are two S trains- the 6th avenue shuttle will run from 21-QueensBridge to Broadway Lafayette. A second S will run from Broadway-Lafayette to Grand Street.
Can someone post a scanned brochure since the MTA web site relevant to maps is woefully out of date.
Thank you.
Jose
Paul M. did post the scanned brochure
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=228882
Thanks! I got it.
Jose
I got my brochure in Flushing the other day. Funny I couldn't find any at Grand street, that's one of the most important places they should be.
Yup it explains in detail how it will all work. I'm excited about it.
As far as the 6th ave shuttle goes, I don't believe the F will run through the 63rd street regularly until November. When that happens the V will be the second local on 6th avenue.
On weekends I guess something will run through 63rd street, most likely F or R.
Attention John Qtraindash7:
Today's Tunnel Vision column in the Times is about the Chinese residents of other neighborhoods who return to Mott Street to purchase the freshest fish in New York and take it home on the subway.
Thank you, i'll check it out! :-)
That explains all those little red bags I see in Grand street.
OK it's just about time. I've just got a report from heypaul ... yes he's still alive and well, running a site called ToiletTalk ... anyhow he's come back from the becah and says the water temp. is rising. He didn't stay very long because he hates to get those cigarette butts between his toes.
In the next two or three weeks I lead a group on a long but very enjoyable trip from Main Street Flushing to Manhattan to Jay Street then the A train to Far Rockaway (I'll provide estimate times so you can join the trip at these 3 points). There we take a LI Bus (John it's very flat so the bus will run just fine) to Long Beach. Some Volley Ball in the sand or some subway sand tunnel building or just get your toes wet (there's an eatery right there on the Boardwalk). Then it's either LIRR back to Brooklyn or LI Bus N15 to Rockville Centre, then N4 to Jamaica. You CAN do it all on a Fun Pass ... that is unless you also want to take a City of Long Beach bus, which would be an extra fare.
I already have a "core" group ready to go, so I am doing the trip !
Either respond here or directly via e-mail so I have some idea of how many want to come AND what week-day seems to be the best. Since it's a long trip we won't be stopping much along the way, so I'll do my best to talk you thru the points of interest. However, we'll wait for a railfan window, of course.
Mr t__:^)
Yup sounds fun count me in. And I never rode the N33 before! Well yeah LI Buses do alot better on the south shore because it is flatter. Once I get another place back on the south shore I won't miss all these hills!
And I love the south shore, so this sounds like fun.
It's a lovely ride, you could even make it into a cheep date.
I probally won't do it next week ... going to the PC Expo, plus my Asst. is off one day, and 4th of July week my not be the best one to pick, but the trip is diffinately on ... already a few emails received.
Mr t__:^)
Page 1:
Manhattan Bridge Service Changes
B D Q W
The NYC Department of Transportation is starting the final stage of the Manhattan Bridge rehabilitation. This means trains that cross the bridge must run on the Broadway N R tracks instead of the Sixth Avenue tracks in Manhattan. It also means you need to get ready for major service changes. Find travel information for each borough inside.
Page 2:
Service Highlights
B and D trains run between their Bronx terminals and 34th/Herald Sq. B D Q trains between Manhattan and Brooklyn are now known as the W Q and trains and run up Broadway to terminate at 57th/7th. Transfer between the two sections can be made at 34th.
New 6th Ave. shuttle runs from 21st. Queensbridge to Bway/Lafayette. Grand St. Shuttle runs from Grand St. to Bway Lafayette.
Page 3:
Brooklyn
Outlines the fact that W Q and stop at all former B D and Q stations in Brooklyn ad nauseam. Trains run express on Broadway. Chart at bottom of page tells how to get to new stations.
Page 4:
Bronx and Queens
B and D trains in the Bronx run as normal and terminate at 34th/Herald Sq.
Sixth Ave. Shuttle makes all stops between 21st/Queensbridge and Bway/Lafayette.
W trains run peak direction express in Astoria.
Page 5:
Manhattan
Blah blah blah more information about the two-section trains and nothing that hasn't been said already.
Page 7:
Map of the new services.
Dan
Here is yet another cross post of Hot Times:
**************
Today we finally take that long promised and well overdue look at Hours of
Service.
A considerable amount of research has been put into this project. I tapped
into the brain trusts of a variety of sources and will use this information
freely. I have many people to thank for their input and wish to acknowledge
their contributions. We'll start with John Bentley and Mo Morrow of the
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers International Headquarters in Cleveland,
John Childs, Train Dispatcher, Canadian National Illinois Central, Jim
Sinclair, Signal Maintainer, Norfolk Southern and my unnamed friend in
Canada. I will also use some of their input as submitted. This is for three
reasons. First, to reduce or minimize the chance of making a mistake in
retyping the information. Two, to save me from having to go through it all
then retype all that information. And third, much of the information is from
railroaders in other classes of service affected by HOS, so you can read it
from their point of view.
I have referred to hour of service (HOS) as the evil bane to railroad
officials everywhere. They can only work us up to the hours and that becomes
that; we come to a stop and wait for relief to arrive in the form of
transportation to the point where we will tie up and finally go off duty. If
the management had their way, we would probably work until we dropped dead
of exhaustion. I have actually heard a few railroad officials complain about
the HOS over the years and whine about how "We have it too good." Too good?
As opposed to what, working 24 solid hours like I have seen some officials
do?
Before we get into the meat and potatoes of HOS, we'll do a very brief look
at its origin. Congess enacted the Hours of Service Act (HOSA) in March
1907. Knowing how well our government works, I would bet this law was a
reactionary measure after a rash of wrecks and disasters occurred when
exhausted train and engine crews fell asleep on the job, and while their
trains were moving. I would also bet too, that there was a fatality or two
involving somebody related to somebody in the government. The original law
called for a maximum of sixteen hours on duty per trip. The rules required
eight hours of rest for up to but not including sixteen hours on duty, and
ten hours off for sixteen hours actual. I can recall old heads on the MoPac
talking of "fifteen, fifty-nine" in the old days. They would show fifteen
hours, fifty-nine minutes on duty in order to only be required to get the
eight instead of ten hours rest so they could hurry back to work. In those
days, the pay was significantly lower, so they needed to work as much as
possible to make ends meet.
The HOSA was amended and modified in 1969. This reduced the maximum day from
sixteen to fourteen hours, with this change to be enacted in 1970, one year
from the date of the effective date of the amendment. Two years after that
date in 1972, the maximum was reduced again to twelve hours. This is where
the law remains today, although there was some court action that made some
revisions to the law and I will get into that in just a moment.
There are certain exceptions to this, but they are primarily limited to
emergencies such as derailments, washouts and other types of disasters.
There is also a provision that allows us to exceed the hours to clear up
road and railroad crossings. However, this must be done continuously and not
have us stop and sit and wait for awhile, go dead, then call us and tell us
to begin cutting. Generally, we make every attempt to not block road or rail
crossings before we expire on the hours so as not to have to violate under
this provision. However, in some cases, things are beyond our control.
If we are instructed to violate for any other reason that listed above, the
carrier involved is required to make a report to the Federal Railroad
Administration (FRA), and there is an automatic fine to pay along with the
said report. I have been ordered only once in over twenty-two and a half
years to violate for a non-emergency. Again, I will go over that episode
later as well.
The federal courts took action that made a revision to the law that lasted
for about three years and the here is what transpired.
In 1992 the federal court in the Ninth Circuit (California and Oregon) ruled
that the time a crew spent waiting for deadhead transportation from duty to
the point of final release (terminal) was to be considered on duty time for
purposes of the Hours of Service Act. Shortly after that decision, the FRA
ruled that this decision would be applied nationwide on all railroads. Nine
major railroads
took this issue to federal court in the Seventh Circuit. The Seventh
Circuit Court ruled in December of 1995 that the time spent waiting for
transportation from duty to the point of final release was to be considered
"limbo" time, neither on duty or off duty time. Since two federal courts
made opposite rulings on this issue the U.S. Supreme Court granted
certiorari, (agreed to hear and decide the case). On January 8, 1996 the
Supreme Court issued its decision affirming the decision in the Seventh
Circuit that time spent waiting on deadhead transportation from a duty point
to the point of final release was limbo time and not on duty time.
In its ruling, one of the justices made a comment that we could go and "have
a beer" if we wanted since we were neither on nor off duty at this time. Ya,
just try it and get nailed for rule G and see if the carriers would go along
with that comment. And see if the courts would stand behind that statement.
We'd be off to the spin dry for this offense for sure.
Let me attempt to explain what all of this meant. The Ninth Circuit
essentially said that that we had to be off the train at the time we expired
under HOS. We were not to be allowed to sit on the train for hours awaiting
transportation to get us to our off duty point. If the carriers failed to do
accomplish this simple little chore, they would be in violation of the hours
of service. Should it have occurred, we had forms to fill out and submit to
report such violations. We had to include all the circumstances as to what
part we may have played in this event. The carriers were then required to
submit such violations to the FRA for further revue.
During the period this ruling was in effect, it was amazing how fast they
got transportation to us. We very rarely sat for hours on end listening to
eight zillion stupid excuses as to why there was no ride for us in a timely
manner. On the rare occasion we did have to sit, it was usually something
beyond railroad control such as the cab broke down, a major storm flooded
many roads rendering them impassible or something to that extent. On
occasion, the cab company would dispatch a cab to the wrong location or a
new driver who was unfamiliar with all of the roads to reach us might get
lost. But we did manage to get off the trains in very short order. Long
waits for a ride were rare. Fifteen and sixteen hour days were further and
fewer between than they are today.
However, the rail industry did not like this ruling and for one very good
set of reasons; it made them responsible and accountable. They did not want
to have to deal with having to admit that we were not going to make it far
enough in advance so as to have transportation readily available. They had
their hands full already trying to cut costs and eliminate jobs. Knowing in
advance that we would not make it to our final terminal was essentially
admitting the failure on their part to get us over the road in a timely
manner. If they forgot to call our ride in advance (which happened from time
to time), they were held responsible. Again, they did not want this
responsibility. They could not blame us for this screw up on their part.
So what happened? The rail industry found a court sympathetic to their cause
and the rules then reverted back to the previous method. And what did that
mean for us? We again got the privilege of sitting and waiting for hours for
a ride. And sit we sometimes do. On many occasions I have sat for well over
two hours after going dead before the ride arrived. I personally know and
have heard about folks that have waited for twelve or more hours for a ride.
In one case on the Grand Trunk Western, a crew that had waited for more than
twelve hours was actually dragged into an investigation account their
waiting so long. Ya, like they really had something to do with not getting
their own ride out to them in a timely manner. They received no discipline
when all was said and done; but then again, neither did the manager who was
responsible for not getting transportation arranged.
Now what is "limbo time" you may ask? Do they raise a bar and have dead the
crew line up to do a little dance under it without falling to the ground?
Does Chubby Checker come out and sing "Limbo low, how low can you go"? Not
hardly! This is time on the clock for pay purposes, but not for HOS. We
cannot violate any of the rules in the operating and safety books while we
sit and wait. We cannot have visitors come up on the engine to look around
while we sit and wait. We are technically not allowed to read a newspaper or
magazine while we sit and wait. I know an Engineer that got thirty days off
when caught by the Rules Examiner for reading a "Wall Street Journal" while
sitting on his "limbo time." Some limbo.
There has also been some activity towards a full scale change in the amount
of hours worked in one capacity or another. One movement has the workday
being reduced to ten hours. Another movement would leave the twelve-hour day
intact, but require a full day off after six consecutive starts or three
days off after seven consecutive starts. All of these have been kicking
around for awhile now. Needless to say, the industry has no desire to go
along with changes that would require them to have to hire more people and
cost them more money. I am sure they will fight any changes tooth and nail.
Now, we'll go over the way this all works. When I am called to duty, my time
begins at the time they inform me to be there for service. So let's say I am
ordered for 0845 (845a). I get my call two hours in advance of this time,
which would be 0645. My HOS time begins at 0845. Even if my train is not
ready, has not yet arrived or my Conductor or Brakeman is late, my time
begins at 0845. I now have twelve hours from that point to work up to 2045
(845p). Now, if they tie us up in less than twelve hours, say after only
seven hours on duty at the away from home terminal, they can short rest us
for four or more hours. This would be up to, but not including eight hours
and then get us back out for the remaining time we have left. In this case,
it would be the remaining five hours we didn't use. This is referred to as
aggregating our time. Under this scenario, we can only work the remaining
time we have left and then go dead. I have done this a couple of times in my
career, but it has been years since it has happened, and never has it
happened to me on the IC or CNIC.
If we are rested for eight full hours, we get a fresh new set of twelve
hours to work.
As in the sixteen and fourteen hour law days, if we work the full twelve, we
are entitled to ten hours off. Anything less than twelve is eight hours off.
Now let me explain the off time. This is either eight or ten hours off, not
eight or ten hours at home. Once we go off duty, our rest time begins at
that moment, not when we walk into our homes or hotel rooms. And what that
actually means is six or eight hours undisturbed. Once we have that six or
eight hours under our belts, they can give us our two-hour call to return to
duty. So as you can see, this really not a great deal of time off in between
starts.
We do have a collective bargaining agreement on the CNIC that allows us to
kick for twelve hours rest. This means ten hours undisturbed. Needless to
say most of the people here opt for those extra few hours yours truly
included. I take it at both ends home and away from home terminals.
I share the opinion with many people that the law is lacking on rest time.
There are no provisions within the law to require a scheduled rest day or
even what constitutes a day off. Let's say I go to work at 2300 hours
(1100p) on the 1st and work my twelve, go dead, wait a bit for the cab and
then get tied up at say 1230 that following afternoon of the 2nd. I kick for
twelve hours off and then get called back to work on my rest at 0030 (1230a)
that following morning of the 3rd. I did not get a start on the calendar day
of the 2nd. I was only off twelve hours though. There are actually some
railroad officials that do not see it that way. They will say, "You had the
2nd off." In theory ya, I did. In reality though, I didn't. I had twelve
hours off. The current law needs to be amended to recognize this omission.
It needs to be rewritten to require at least one full day off every seven.
It should also require a minimum of twelve hours between each start. As it
is written now, I can, in theory, work ninety-six hours in one week. And
yes, I have done it too. This would be accomplished by working twelve hours
on, ten hours off for seven consecutive days. The extra four hours are
carried into the following week, but count for work in that week based on
the date you went on duty. Even truckers and airline pilots are not allowed
a schedule like this.
And now we'll look at the way HOS affects other crafts. Train Dispatchers,
Operators and Signal Maintainers are also governed by the HOSA. If any
employee connects with the transportation department, they too come under
the requirements of HOS. On the CNIC, Car Inspectors are allowed to "attach
themselves" to our crew as utility employees. This allows them to perform
the same duties a Conductor; Brakeman or Transportation Utility employee
does in affiliation with our train. Under the law, the Car Inspectors that
become utility employees are also governed under other rules that require
them to be examined and they must pass transportation department operating
rules. They are also subject to random drug testing.
We'll go to Train Dispatcher and Operators first. From John Childs, a fine
Train Dispatcher comes the following:
Tower operators and dispatchers were written in the law when in came into
effect in March 1907. Not much has changed in our hours since then. Our
section was changed to include signalmen in June 1988(?) I think.
Our hours of service state that you can not work more than 9 in any 24
consecutive hour period at a station where there are 2 or more shifts, 12
hours if there is only one shift. The next part gets interesting, which are
emergencies. In this case it's 4 hours in 24 with the restriction of not
more than 3 days in 7 consecutive days. The big question is what constitutes
an emergency? The FRA has said that not having qualified relief does not
constitute an emergency. One might think that a dispatcher or tower operator
then could refuse to double. The FRA says that if the carrier tells you to
stay and you don't and the carrier charges you with insubordination they
will not defend you. You must do as the carrier instructs. Which in turn
brings up the question what good is the law if the carrier does what he
pleases? The carrier getting fined is the only remedy. There have been cases
up in Troy where dispatchers have been told to stay 16 hours. We haven't had
that happen but we have had a number of 12-hour shifts last year and 1 this
year already.
From Signal Maintainer superb Jim Sinclair of Norfolk Southern comes this
bit of information and insight:
Anyone engaged in the testing, inspection or repair of any signal system or
highway crossing protection is governed under the Hours of Service Act. This
law came into effect during the fall of 1976; just a few months after I had
went to work for the newly formed Conrail in Michigan. I recall some of the
"old heads" on Conrail's Detroit Division grumbling a lot about the new law
as it was going to cut significantly into their earnings. I understand the
Monroe, Michigan signal maintainer actually made more money in 1975 than the
Division Superintendent! (or so the story goes) Of course, that guy must
have been working almost constantly. Ah, no thanks -- not for me!!
Signalmen are allowed to work up to but no more than 12 hours in any given
24-hour period. A new 24-hour period begins after a Signalman is "fully
rested" and has been off duty for eight to ten continuous hours. For
example, my assigned tour of duty is from 6:30 am to 3:30 pm (with a
one-hour meal period), Monday through Friday. My one hour meal period does
not count towards my "worked" hours under the law. If I don't work any
overtime
between 3:30 pm and 11:30 pm, I am "fully rested" under the law because I
have had 8 continuous hours off duty. If the telephone rings at 11:35 pm,
the law says I can now work up to 12 hours.
Now, this would not be a problem if I came right home, ate dinner and went
straight to bed, however, that is rarely the case. Being somewhat of a
"night owl," there have been many times when I've just finished watching the
11:00 pm newscast and I am just drifting off to sleep when the telephone
rings at 11:45 pm. Now the "law" may say I'm "fully rested" but, obviously,
I am not. The rule of thumb is this: If you feel tired at 8:00 pm, you go to
bed and get some sleep because Murphy's Law says trouble calls will always
occur when you're the most tired and/or the weather is the most inclement.
Now, let's complicate things a little: Let's say I have worked my normal
eight hours and the phone rings with a trouble call at 10:30 pm. Since I've
only had seven continuous hours off duty, I am not "fully rested" under the
law and therefore, I can only work four additional hours. This trouble call
requires that I work from 10:30 pm to 2:30 am, which means I have now worked
12 hours. Under the law, if I have worked 12 hours, I am now required to
have ten (instead of eight) continuous hours off duty before I may return to
work. OK, so I'm heading for home at 2:30 am and I'm thinking I cannot
legally return to work until 12:30 pm.
Once I do return to work at 12:30 pm, a new 24 hour period begins for me and
I could conceivably work until 12:30 am if need be. Now, you may ask the
question, "is he docked from getting his regular pay until he returns to
work at 12:30 pm?" The answer is no. If I am "outlawed," I am paid for my
regular assignment (6:30 am -- 3:30 pm) whether I am physically there or
"resting" under the HOS law.
There have been times when I have been paid 22 hours out of 24 and here's
why: Since our work rules dictate the railroad cannot change our normal
starting time to avoid paying overtime, but they choose to start me at a
different time, the railroad must pay me for my regular tour of duty at the
time designated by my job bulletin. There was a time when I was working in
signal construction and there was a huge cutover planned. Although my
regular workday began at 7:00 am, they told me to stay in the motel and
rest, as I would be called to duty at 7:00 pm instead. So, I was paid from
7:00 am until 5:00 pm (my "normal" workday). I then reported for duty at
7:00 pm as instructed and worked 12 hours (at the overtime rate) until 7:00
am the next morning. As I was going off duty from this all-nighter my
regular pay started again started at 7:00 am and didn't stop until 5:00 pm.
This cycle went on for several days and I have to admit that I had made a
pretty good chunk of change by the time the cutover was through.
The above scenario is definitely more an exception than the rule, but it
can, and has happened to me a few times.
The law does provide that Signalmen can work up to 16 hours but it has to be
an "emergency" and the railroad must report the fact to the FRA. I have
never been required to do this because the railroad does not want to explain
violations to the FRA and also be subject to a fine as well.
There have been times when I have been instructed to go home at noon, for
example, if a big snowstorm is approaching and the railroad wants to save my
"hours" for something that may happen later. Another good example of this
might be a derailment or a cutover as I talked about previously. They'll
keep some guys out working until they outlaw and call in the guys that have
some working time left to clean up or finish restoring whatever has been
damaged and/or destroyed.
So, in a nutshell, the law can either work for you or against you. It's nice
to know that once I get home after putting in a 12-hour day, I will not be
required to return to work with no less than ten hours rest. Then there are
the times when you've just jumped in the sack only to be called out 15
minutes later...
And now, we go to Canada. Canadian law was silent on HOS until 1987. There
was a major head on wreck in Alberta involving a Canadian National train and
a VIA passenger train. The CN crew had been on duty some twenty hours with a
four or six hour off duty period prior to this tour of duty. The crew on the
CN train had fallen asleep, failed to stop at a stop signal at the end of
double track and pulled onto the single track and into the path of the
oncoming VIA train. There were fatalities and with them, a change in the
rules. Once again, reactive responses instead of a proactive measure. I
should also mention that at this point in time, crew vigilance systems were
not required in Canada. That also changed after this disaster.
My source in Canada wishes to remain anonymous, so we shall then call him
"A. Nonymous".
Here is a summary of the two versions. It turns out that the
turning point in hours of service regulations was 1993, when a Ministry of
Transport Notice and Order went into effect to amend the previous
regulations, as a result of all the investigations following the Hinton
accident.
So, as per General Operating Instructions dated 1987 and 1990, Canadian
hours of service regulations can be summarized as follows:
-Employees on duty 8-10 hours cannot be called for duty for 6 hours after
booking off
-Employees on duty more than 10 hours cannot be called for duty for 8 hours
after booking off
-Employees on duty less than 8 hours, then required again within 3 hours of
booking off, upon arrival at next objective terminal are to count hours on
duty of both tours of duty to determine which of the above two scenarios are
applicable.
These regulations were not applicable to regular yard assignments, regular
commuter train assignments, conductors & trainmen in intercity passenger
service or for employees required for emergency services.
Therefore you could say that the old hours of service regulations were more
hours off duty regulations. Strictly applied, you could work 20 hours, then
only need 8 hours rest before being called again under these old
regulations.
Now fast forward to the General Operating Instructions dated 1993, which
remain in effect today. The hours of service regulations get completely
changed and become much more specific.
-Mandatory Off Duty Time
- after 10 hours on duty, not to go on duty for 8 hours, and not to be
called for at least 6 hours
- after less than 10 hours on duty, and where called again within 3 hours of
booking off, employee to sum hours on duty during the two tours to determine
if the above point applicable
-Deadheading
- deadhead time considered as on duty time if deadheading to objective
terminal or an intermediate point to start service
- mandatory rest can only be interrupted for deadheading at away-from-home
terminals for purpose of getting to home terminal, and if such is done,
employee considered to have been on duty greater than 10 hours
-Maximum Hours of Service (as per Minister of Transport Notice & Order,
August 1993)
- No one will operate a train for greater than 12 hours (however non
operating duties may be undertaken past 12 hours)
- Employees off duty 8 hours are considered fit for another 12 hours on duty
- deadheading - employees may be deadheaded subsequent to expiry of 12th
hour
- deadheading to work location to be used in 18 hour rule
calculation (see below), unless 8 hours rest obtained between deadheading
and reporting for duty
- in emergencies, employees may work a maximum of 16 hours
-Maximum 18 hours in a 24 hour Period
- Employees cannot operate trains more than 18 hours in a 24 hour period
- The 24 hours starts on commencement of first tour of duty following 8
hours rest
- Okay to double back from away from home terminal, subject to 18 in 24
rule, with no requirement for time off at the away from home terminal
- Employees may be deadheaded subsequent to expiry of 18th hour
-Yard Service
- maximum of 18 hours on duty in 24 hour period, maximum of 12 hours
continuous duty
-Work Train Service
- maximum of 16 hours continuous while in control of train
- Sperry cars running light and TEST train service maximum 12 hours on duty
A tad more involved that the pre-1993 regulations!
Hopefully this info hasn't been too confusing...they still debate the ins
and outs of these regs over the radio.
Okay, clear as mud, right? Some of it appears to be gray area, some of it
quite clear. They do not appear to be as strict in some forms as the United
States.
Deadheading was mentioned here and I should touch upon it. The class of
service known as deadheading basically means this: non-revenue,
non-performing service. We are transported by cab, train, plane, helicopter
or possibly dogsled team from point A to point B. We have somebody else
doing the driving while we lounge. Well, given the way some of these cab
drivers operate their vehicles, we hope and pray, as it is "white knuckles"
time. We are just hoping to arrive alive and in one piece.
Nonetheless, deadheading constitutes HOS and all the rules apply. If I am
called to deadhead from Markham to say Clinton to get a coal train to bring
north, my entire deadhead is counted under HOS from the time we went on
duty. So if we were ordered for 1030 to deadhead but didn't actually depart
until 1115, our HOS still begins at 1030 and we are good until 2230 hours.
The same applies to deadheading at the completion of the tour of duty. We
take an empty coal train to Clinton and are then deadheaded to Champaign to
tie up. All of the deadhead time is counted as HOS. Should we go dead on the
hours enroute during our deadhead, we end our tour of duty and the always
popular "limbo time" begins. Although it is actually "tow in" time now for
payroll purposes.
If we deadhead only, performing no active duty other than the deadhead and
tie up, we have to be off eight hours. After eight hours off, we get a fresh
twelve hours to work.
I had mentioned being ordered to violate the HOS way back at the beginning.
Here is that story.
While working for Guilford on the former Maine Central, were coming in on
train RUPO (Rumford-Portland). We were not going to make it as the sand in
the hours of service glass had just about run out. The Train Dispatcher
called us and said "I have been informed by the General Superintendent to
instruct you to violate the hours of service and bring the train into Rigby
Yard, over." The Conductor, Brakeman and myself questioned this amongst us
before responding to these instructions. I questioned them and was told they
must have the train reach the yard where we would then be relieved. "OK, we
acknowledge that we are being instructed per the General Superintendent to
violate the hours of service and bring the train in to Rigby, over." He then
went on to tell us to come up and see him before we went home.
Now right away, this is a huge gamble. Aside from the paperwork and
automatic fine involved, there is the exposure issue. Just say there was
some sort of mishap like a collision with a motor vehicle at a road
crossing. A lawyer would have a field day with this as he would likely make
this a major issue calling it gross negligence or something to that effect.
Fortunately, nothing bad happened. We ran the thirty or so miles on in and
stopped right at PT Tower (now I believe called Control Station A) and
stepped off. The yard crew boarded and took over.
When we went up to see the Dispatcher, he showed us the form that he was
typing up to send to the FRA reporting this episode. He told us that a check
for $2000 per man involved would be enclosed with the report to the FRA and
that the folks over at the Administration Building would handle that aspect
of the report. They paid $6000 for us to violate. A steep price indeed. He
did also mention something that both the Conductor and I already knew; the
FRA could not hold us liable or responsible for this act. We would also not
be subject to any fine or other disciplinary action by the FRA for this
event.
We made back alive, but in a state of death. I guess then, this made us real
railroad zombies.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
Too many memories (the bad ones) of my days on Montana Rail Link. I can't say anything you don't know...but will add if you haven't had enough already: Freight service stinks.[except for the money]
I *loved* the last one ... reminds me of Gonerail except the dispatchers actually gave a crank usually ... That cab was there in a hurry if they didn't just stop a train headed back *HOME* on your #1 track ...
In all sincerity, I *love* those stories because it somehow makes the "ta" less of a buttshaft for those who need a calibration standard. :)
For me, one surprise in the Manhattan Bridge brochure was the announcement of rush-hour W express service on the Astoria line. I hope it succeeds. I predict complaints from the passengers to/from the skipped stations. As a system-wide rider, I like the idea of evening rush-hour running center track to Astoria Blvd center platform, getting people as far north as possible a few minutes more quickly. However, we then run into the typical New York problem of the jammed terminal. So frequently, and for so many decades, we have had crowded trains stalled one station short of a terminal, as nightly on Sutphin on the E. The Wakefield and Van Cortlandt Park solution has sometimes been maddening: taking trains out of service one station before the terminal.
I hope that Astoria Blvd is an appropriate unloading station, and that a crowd of travelers will be pleased to hike it home from there.
Ironic that the "W" is running to where the "R" used to go. If we had cartoon characters around the letters similar to logs for the bus depots then we should have Porky Pig for the "W"ascally wabbit.
Oops! That should be Elmer Fudd---Of course then people won't know if its the R or the W
Porky Pig was the one that stutterd? I had that problem for many years.
Chuck Greene
They are planning to terminate 20 tph at Ditmars Blvd. They currently terminate 12 tph.
They used to terminate 20 tph back in the old days, when two services terminated there, after the 1949 track changes.
The track layout at Ditmars is not the best arrangment for reversing trains in a two-track stub terminal. However, 20 tph should not tax the TA's managerial capabilities.
The biggest challenge will occur, when one of the pockets will be occupied by a disabled train. They will have to turn around trains at 3 minute intervals from a single track. Considering, that it will take about 120 seconds to berth and remove a train from the station, there will not be enough time for the T/O to change ends in the remaining 60 seconds. They had better plan on switching T/O's or they'll find themselves backed up to Queensboro Plaza.
Hmmm 20 tph?
What's the service going to be like? If what you say is currently true, 12 N's and 8 W's? IIRC when the B terminated along with the N in Astoria in the mid 80s, there was more B service than N probably because of the ridership along West End vs. Sea Beach.
No matter what there will be congestion. Heck I'm at the courts right by the Astoria Blvd. station frequently and at the peak of rush hour there are times where a train is stalled at Astoria waiting for a train to head to Manhattan so it can make it's last stop. Turning 20 tph will probably back things up to at least 30 ave. I guess that's why they're doing the peak express. To cut local congestion.
=)
Dumb question time: did they do any testing of this odd plan?
Aside from the backup at ditmars, if they don't have the timing just right there will be yet another back up manhattan bound at 39th where the tracks merge down to 2 through Queens plaza. (where are those switches controled from now? the tower there has become an oversize pigeon nest).
It's a nice idea if it actually works (and far better than that BS years back when they turned the B at QP during non rush hours) but I doubt it will 60% of the time.
Look like I might become a V rider afterall...
The Astoria express will not save much time. However, it will fill up with people from Ditmars and Astoria Blvd. who think it actually will, thus making those N local trains emptier. Those who patronize the local stations will benefit most, as will those who x-fer from the 7 at QBP.
Certainly. it's too short a run for them to save much time, and will indeed make things less crowded... I just hope they can handle the switching at ditmars & 39th.
From what I can gather from the schedules published on the MTA website, both the B and N are currently running 10 tph out of Brooklyn. The N running out of Astoria is augmented by short runs to the City Hall lower level (last passenger stop Canal St). I would assume that these short runs would be terminated with both the W and N servicing Astoria.
As I remember the B terminated at Queensboro Plaza, the last time it ran up Broadway. I suspect that one reason it is being extended to Ditmars is that the current policy regarding emptying relaying trains was not in effect at that time.
Any delays at Ditmars will be due to inability to turn trains around. The delay will be the same, whether the trains are using 2 or 3 tracks south of the station. I suspect that they are trying to save 1 trainset by running express.
The B went to Ditmars during rush hours.
A lot of times if there was an incoming B when an N was already at Ditmars someone got on the pa to tell passengers that the B would leave first. Then the mad dash across the platform and others just sat on the N confused as heck.
=)
Before 1967 both the "T" and the "QT" or "QB" terminated in Astoria - they managed. The "W" is a re-incarnation of the "T" (sigh - it will always be the "T" to me no matter what they call it). So I dont see a problem. What I would like to know is how did they manage before 1949 when you had the BMT shuttle as well as IRT Second Avenue and IRT Times Square trains terminating there?
I don't have any direct service level evidence for the Astoria Line during this period. Both the BMT and IRT were each limited to a minimum headway of 4 1/2 minutes on the Flushing Line after express service started in 1939. The BMT had no choice but to run their shuttles onto the Astoria Line. If the IRT chose to duplicate the Flushing Line service levels, then the combined IRT/BMT service level would have been 27 tph. This should place an upper limit for the service level during the 1939-1949 period.
Both operators used shorter trains compared to today's 600' length. This reduced the time that it took to transverse the switch which is the physical factor that limits capacity at Ditmars Blvd. So, they should not have had that much trouble turning around 27 tph on two tracks.
They never used the center track on the Astoria Line for express service. This meant that the a disabled train could be moved onto the center track to keep both pockets clear at Ditmars.
During the early '80's, I can remember "RR" trains lined up in the center track of the Astoria line between peaks. I seem to also remember 1 or 2 "QB" trains in line too ( or am I imagining that??)
Tony
Back in the 60s, BMT standards and Triplexes would layup on the center track, based on photos I've seen.
No, it's not your imagination. Some consists of R42s signed as QB at the ends were signed QJ in the middle proving that they were rerouted QJ's. They did the layups with no signal control between 39 AV and Astoria Blvd. I assume that the center track now has signal control all the way because they will be running the W express.
Jose
It will always be the T to me, too.
When a train is disabled, is its T/O required to stay with it?
If not, there's your extra T/O.
An operational question, does the Train Operator have to apply the hand brake before leaving the cab to go down on the road to inspect the train?
This morning I'm late to work (very tired so took the D for a seat instead of Slant 40) at 9:15 or so we are on the bridge and we dump with a slirred word from the cab. I think he just "dropped the handle" or something like that. We wait as the train charges right up and we are off.
Just short of Grand St we dump once more at 9:21am (north operating motor 2578). Some more IC talk that I can't make out.
The next thing I hear is the hand brake being applied (crank, crank) and the storm door being opened.
9:32am and we hear the storm door open and the hand brake being released and off we go. Nothing else happens out of the ordinary through 50th Street when I left the D.
So MUST you apply Hand Brake before going on the ground. Did this T/O do it in this case because of the downgrade into Grand St from the bridge and didn't want his own train running him over? (We were BIE).
It was just the first time I remember hearing a hand brake applied while in service.
According to rule #53A, the operator is required to apply sufficient handbrakes (while in emergency) to keep his train from rolling. This is alsorequired under rule #53E. Even if it was not required, it seems like a prudent thing to do - especially if the operator might find something that would require him/her to go under the train.
BTW: I'm sure when you typed SLIRRED it was a type-o. What did you mean to type?
Thanks T.D., yah a type-o >G<.
How about a route from 207 St, Manhattan to Jamaica Center via 8 Av, Houston, Nassau St, and across the Willy-B to Jamaica. All stops, all times.
a route like this would serve...... whom?
If only there were a crossover south of Grand Street, a Grand St. shuttle wouldn't be necessary--they could just run the V there. This seems like it would be a relatively cheap thing to build, and very useful too.
:-) Andrew
There isn't enough space for a train to reverse south of the bridge without going on it. And they'll be doing work on the bridge.
OK. Then hows about just north of Grand create a scisors track, and then any train could go to either track.
:-) Andrew
It should have been done in the 1960's. To do it today would involve opening up Christie to remove columns and add larger beams to support the street. If a crossover can fit (ie: if the tracks are level and straight enough), it would cost tens of millions of dollars and take several years to design and build. It is, regretably, too late for this. If State and City DOT had not so messed up the bridge reconstruction over the past 20 years, this probably would not be an issue.
would cost tens of millions of dollars and take several years to design and build.
Back in the day people would just sit down and DO things. Have the laws of physics changed or something since then?
TA physics and......
Red tape,
Yellow tape,
Blue tape..........
TA physics and......
Red tape,
Yellow tape,
Blue tape..........
Not to mention orange and yellow rollsigns.
;-D Andrew
You're right, that's how they built the Manhattan Bridge!
:-) Dave
If the MTA still can't balance the bridge by having the same amount of service on the Manhattan Bridge after the reconstruction, even they finish the reconstruction of the bridge, the bridge will still suffer from unbalance stress in the different sides.
They should build crossovers in the two sides of the bridge, because in case of a big hurricane blow down the bridge, they can still maintain the service to the nearest station.
They should build crossovers in the two sides of the bridge, because in case of a big hurricane blow down the bridge, they can still maintain the service to the nearest station.
Never underestimate the TA. They did hire a consultant to advise them how to maintain service in the event of a nuclear attack.
A Grand Street shuttle isn't necessary. The V can terminate there. See my earlier post. Changing operating practices is cheaper than installing a crossover.
R-142s 6591-95 and 6601-05 are on the property and are in stages of service preparation as they are in test mode. This should be the next set to enter service besides 6586-90 and 6596-6600, bunched as a 10 car train.
6336-45 are not together at present. They made one run, but that was about it some weeks ago. 6341-45 is out of service while 6336-40 runs with the R-142A Cars 7211-15.
6471-75 left Unionport Yard last night destined for an unknown location. A good guess would be that the cars went to 207th St for brake mods.
-Stef
I have a picture of 7211 and 6336 on the same train. It's in the frame below (number 23-08).
<BR>
Nice pix.....
One correction though: There is no locomotive OL923. The locomotive in question is OL903.
-Stef
7416-7430 were in testing along Dyre Ave line. (7416-25 was a 10 car set together. 7426-30 was running by their lonesome.)
I thought I saw them (7416-25) but wasn't sure..... 7411-15 here?
-Stef
6336-45 is in service. road it on monday. it was hit with graffitti. i forgot which car. it was running today along with 6411-20,6311-20,6581-90. there is more on the line but couldn't get the numbers.
6341-45 must be running with something else then. I spotted 6336-40 still running with 7211-15 this morning.
-Stef
You forgot 6606 - 6610. They msut have delivered them last night. I spotted them in Unionport this morning on the southbound 2 (incidentially, while on 6416)
9492 and 93, previously reported as being on the Corona Line was down at Coney Island Yard once again on Saturday. They were coupled to 9670 and 71, but there was no indication the set was in service on the 7. Signage still set for Pelham Line.
What are the people in management up to?
-Stef
I would guess that the cars there are about to be scrapped.
Andrew
Not all the way down there! They could have done that at 207th St Yard. They send Corona Cars to the Mainline, and Pelham Cars to Corona, ughhhhhh, it's time to take an advil and try to sort out this mess....
-Stef
They will be the last Redbirds to be scrapped. Flushing cars have always been regular visitors to C.I. My guess is that Mainline R36's are being swapped with WF ones, and are the very last to be scrapped.
Some of the Pelham R-36s are World's Fair Cars that have been away from Corona Yard for a number of years. The R-36s that started on the Mainline though, are either going to scrap or will finish their careers out of Corona Yard.
-Stef
I think the R26/28/29 will generally go to scrap first.
I saw 9342-3 and 9573 and its mate at CI from a passing N train on Wednesday but I was trying to jot down the numbers as we passed so I may have some inaccuracies. Both were signed for the Pelham line and had yellow Pelham yard stickers.
per official AFC Bulletin:
during the week of 6/18/01. new MEMs are being installed at 5 stations to be turned on the week of 6/25/01.
The stations:( not all locations in that station complex will get the new MEM):
34/Herald Square--on 6/26/01
34 Penn Sta- IRT-6/26/01
Rockefeller Ctr--06/28/01
Ditmars (N)--6/28/01
Woodside(7)--6/28/01
"MetroCard Express Machines (MEMs) will operate the same way MetroCard Vending Machines(MVMs) do. The only difference is that the MEMs will not accept any form of cash(bills or coins), do not offer the purchase option of a Single Ride Ticket (SRT) and are much smaller in physical size. The MEMs will only accept debit and credit cards as payment...
All other functions of the MEMs are the same as the MVMs."
***this quote was from the AFC bulletin**
So far I have not had any training on the new toys so I cannot give any comments.
Do they restore the trade-in ability?
And are they inside or outside fare control?
That's bull, why the hell would you call it express if you pay with a fricken CC! It takes like a minute to validate an ATM card, not express. I pay with coins and bills all the time and it takes 10 seconds or less! That's express, but then again, these express trains, and the express machines, what do you expect from the MTA? :-)
That's bull, why the hell would you call it express if you pay with a fricken CC! It takes like a minute to validate an ATM card
No it doesn't. Paying with cash takes forever. Putting in all those bills. Counting coins. CASH SUCKS.
The MVM's aren't too bad with cash. In fact, they're probably one of the more lenient machines around. They are also pretty quick in accepting a debit card. LIRR machines are absolutely awful when it comes to validating debit cards.
CG
This is not my term. I quoteds from the official bulletin giving the name they chose.
I timed it yesterday: 10 seconds from putting the card in to getting approval.
John.
And you didn't have to count cash or collect change, either.
Credit cards are fast nowadays.
The TA is going to encourage this for a variety of reasons: less risk: no armored anything to collect cash on a regular basis because if you leave a lot of cash in the machine it can be vulnerable; less maintenance: cash counters are relatively delicate compared to mag-stripe readers; less visits: the machine should be able to tell you when it’s running low on cards/receipt paper.
Most of the time it takes to validate credit cards these days lies in the necessity to make a phone call. Since all the MVM-variety machines are online all the time, I can only hope/presume that the TA has a permanent connection to its credit card validation service, which means that the processing time is so much shorter.
Like it or loathe it, this is the future.
John
They put in the one at 34th (32nd st entrance, near N/R) this morning. their small, and attacted to the wall.
I must have walked right past it this afternoon....oh well. Sounds like they are something good for mankind.
Hey, I don't think anyone mentioned this, but the W will be stopping at 49th st station. This means it switches to the local at 34th st. I guess this is to avoid conflicting with the 2 trains terminating at 57/7th.
Yes, and if I remember correctly, that's what the MTA did with the "B" trains in the '80's when they went to Queensboro Plaza or Astoria during the weekdays. TONY
I did, but to recap, the stops for the W line will be as follows:
Ditmars Blvd
Astoria Blvd
30 Av*
Broadway*
36 Av*
39 Av*
Queensboro Plaza
Lexington Av
5 Av
57 St
49 St
Times Sq
34 St
14 St
Canal St
then all current B line stops to Coney Island
* Reverse-peak direction only.
The "T" used to skip 49th - how did they do it then?
The "T" crossed over to the express south of 57/7 with "N" and "Q" trains terminating at 57/7. So the only reason why the "W" will make the stop at 49/7 is because it is a busy local stop, not because it will interfere with "Q" and services.
Jose
Correction: .....Q and Diamond-Q services.
Jose
49th/7th may indeed be a busy stop. But is it busy enough to merit stopping the W there? Nope. Now, the T may have indeed stopped there, but will the Q and diamond Q have the same frequency? Also, I seriously doubt that the TA of today and the TA back then had the same operational policies. I'm sure that the TA back then could pull off the 63rd G/R/V thing with no problem. But today, I think that that's going to be a bit tough. The delays to the W would be unbearable.
The reasons for them switching at 34th is simple:
Situation 1: 57/7 has 2 Qs in it. There is another Q waiting outside the station. There is a W waiting behind it. That W must wait for both Qs to leave before it can proceed.
Situation 2: 57/7th has one or no Qs in it. The next train to approach the interlocking from the express is a W, behind it at Q. A broadway local is leaving 49th for 57th. W waits first for a line-up, then has to enter the station, holding the Q up. This could happen at 34st, but the interlocking at 34th is much faster.
Situation 3: 57/7 has 2 Qs in it. W arrives on the local. W goes first, people on Q delayed. Q goes first, people on W (and N or R behind) delayed. Again, the 57th st IL is slower than the one at 34th.
Reason 4: 57st tower controls double crossovers north and south of the station, the leads to the 60st corridor, and the express - local crossovers south of the station. That's 12 switches (depends on how you look at it). They will need to handle 2 for the Q, throw in the W and they need to handle 2 more. They also have to handle deadheads after the rush which must switch into the soutbound express track and reverse into 63st.
Oops on the title, stupid letters are right next to each other...
Dumb question, so dumb in fact I thought about creating a new ID but want to follow guidelines so...
Anywho, what's this sacred RailFan window I keep hearing hushed talk about? What trains is in located in and whats the best way to get near it? Are burnt offerings nesessary?
the storm door window (the front window)
the storm door window (the front window)
Or on PATCO, and SEPTA's MFL, the window in front of the front seat, as well as the storm door window.
The big deal is that the Railfan window/storm door/etc. is going going gone, i.e. the new cars don't have one. Some of the older cars even had a customer seat at the front with a window to look out of. In Boston some of their cars still do.
It's the only way to ride, even if you have no idea what you are looking at out the front !
Mr t__:^)
A railfan window affords a view such as this from the front of the first car of the train.
Photo courtesy of Keystone Pete, without his permission, although he recently alerted SubTalkers the recent addition to his website that includes the photo linked above.
There alot of places are booming with a huge Asian Population. (I think it's Park Slope) and they need a connection to Chinatown. That what the major concern is about the Manhattan Bridge closing down presents. The Q and W will not be the saving grace. The J,M,Z are the closest Lines there so might as well extend them into brooklyn and once again offer the people the key connection. It will be worth it. The people who live in the Bronx or Upper Manhattan or Queens dont have this problem cause they only need to transfer the S to go directly into Grand Street. For the people who need to go to Chinatown who live in brooklyn the Q and W will get them close and then they have to deal with a long walk and Canal Street. This will also SCRAP the Diamond Q and the regular Q
Look at this suggestion here with the J,M,Z service to brooklyn
(J)Jamica Center to Coney Island - Nassau Street Express (In Brooklyn Peak Time Direction Only) Brighton Local - ALL TIMES
(M)Metropolitan Avenue to Bay Parkway - Nassau Street Local- ALL Times
(Z)Jamica Center to Coney Island - Nassau Street Express/ Sea Beach Express - ALL TIMES
Alot of people say that this makes no sense, but when thinking about it, people dont have to travel along the crowded Canal Street, it gives people in Brooklyn an extremely important option. The Elderly have an option. This idea is far better then the one proposed to by the MTA. Scrap the Diamond Q and have the Q service as is.
This plan people might like and it might stay this way, and the D might go to Coney Island and the J might become another Brighton Express. For Beach goers the Z line is perfect for going downtown. This is the oppertunity for this. I wish I could propose it, cause this is an excellent plan.
Ugh. You have failed to take a number of things into account.
1. The Q diamond and Circle plan is TEMPORARY MANHATTAN BRIDGE WORK!!!! The D and B trains CANNOT reach brooklyn during construction.
2. There are restrictions on how many trains can fit on a number of tracks. The Montague tunnel CANNOT take on the J/Z line as well as the M, N and R lines
3. This "ALL TIMES" stuff is resource wasting. Nights, the train does not have to go to Brooklyn (the M to manhattan). Have you ever rode an "M" at 2:30? It has very little passengers
4. Even if by some supernatural means you could fit the J/Z,M,N,R into the montague tunnel, there just aren't enough cars for your proposed plan. Perhaps there would be after the deployment of the R-143, but the excess created by the R-143 will head to the Queens Blvd. lines.
I have stated that as a solution, you could scrap the Q local, run the "M" on Brighton as the local, and take the cars from the removed Q to expand service on the M and W lines. Perhaps you could also reinstate the diamond brown "R" rush hours, using some R32's from Jamaica.
One thing you overlooked in extending the (J)(M)(Z) lines into Brooklyn, there isn't enough equipment to facilitate this.
Bill "Newkirk"
So forget about the M as it is at times only a shuttle and forget about the rush hour only Z. Thru route the J via Montague onto whichever line would be reduced to a shuttle at night in Brooklyn.presto another 24 hour service thru Chinatown to Brooklyn. with several good transfer connections en route.
No such thing as impossible without a few car shufflings or changes to other routes, minor changes. This makes one more service thru the tunnel..so when traffic is heavy move one service to the bridge...like the SEA BEACH [plug for ya Fred!!!]
That was silly. Just extend the M's hours, and presto! you have the same idea!
And, for the last time:
THE Z TRAINS ARE J TRAINS!!!!!!!
This makes a lot of sense. I've also posted a message to this effect.
That'll do it.
Many system that use KinkiSharyo cars have cars that make screeching sounds. Is the screeching sound the wheels?
I think it’s a result of the tight turns that light rail/trolleys/trams have. Since the inside radius is smaller than the outside one, and the wheels turn together on the axle, something has to scrape against something = screech.
The PCCs also make a noise going round the loop at Newark!
John
But they screech when stopping.
I saw the same problem in Paris.
The newer rubber tyre stock (line 1 & 14) screeched as hell when they stopped.
My Parisian friend complained about how they screeched more
than the cars made in the 60s/70s.
I feel kinda same way about the R-142s.
They screech.... too
Is it a problem with recent brake shoe technology?
Maybe you shoud cover your ears when a train stops.
Don't worry. I do. (only when I see the train is new)
:-)
Are any of the R1/9 cars at the ci yard are operation? When is the last time they left the yard?
How many: a bunch. Check the museum roster on this site.
Do they run: One or two of them are rumored to operate.
When did they last leave the yard: More like they entered but
they've never left.
.
There are enough R9s around to make a decent fan trip train, but
getting them all roadworthy is quite a lot of work which would have
to be tackled by the small volunteer force that works there once
or twice per week.
#103, 1000, 923, 925, 491. Five at least. Maybe one or two more. 491 is in the paint shop and is coming along nice.
Throw in the ones at the Transit Museum (100, 484, and that R-10 imposter, 1575) and you'd have a nice 8-car train. Uh-oh, I think Kevin is starting to drool. What'll it be, Kev? Motorman or conductor?:-)
Electric plug in hand, shoving it into the round box ... BUZZ BUZZ ... that baby's MINE (though I'd prefer 10 cars for the FULL symphony and hard tile walls) ... too old to play car monkey safely these days, I can rip through 3 points like anybody and drop my 40 pounds when needed. Question is, does the EXP lights light up? And does the "sign change" button work? Ah! :O
If you're talking about the side destination signs, the ones on 100 still illuminate. Don't know about the "EXP" sign; however, since the surviving oldtimers still have field shunting enabled, I would imagine the signs are functional.
It's actually field tapping, not field shunting, on those older
cars. Same effect though.
I stand corrected.
Yep, the plunger was to toggle which destination on the side was lit (in the #2 end cab on the panel) and the EXP lights of course indicated that the car hadn't been spayed and neutered (not necessarily in that order) ... :)
BTW, 1689's side signs also light up.
I'd expect the Branford folks to have done so. Betcha the EXP light also can be lit and the motor windings are still there. Alas, crank that controller and it'll be on the ground on the far end, having cut grooves in the road straight into the next county. :)
Don't laugh. I heard they got 6688 rolling once (and I do mean ROLLING) and just barely stopped in time at the Short Beach end.
I'm pretty sure 1689's EXP and LOCAL signs also work, though I haven't seen them do so. One of our Shoreline regulars can verify this. That car has gotten lots of TLC.
Yeah, I think it was Stef mentioned that it wanted to gallop. Please don't anybody take this the wrong way but from what I've seen of the map and heard from museum regulars, the "course" at Branford involves a short run with a good amount of yard at one end, and S curve and serious grade in the middle, then a bridge (you don't want to gallop over those) and finally the end ... I see that as a WONDERFUL trolley ride at a relaxed pace but not a terribly terrific subway car ride. I can see why there's "factional" issues just based on the style of run alone. If only manna fell from heaven in the form of real estate and money ... sure would love to see a nearly straight run of a couple of miles on level anything somewhere. That'd be the teats ...
Yeah, bull and pinion gears wailing away at G above middle C or even higher...
Yeah, hearing the metal work was cool and all ... but I'll tell ya what REALLY did it for ME in the cab ... didn't happen until I had done a couple of runs in R32's that I noticed it ...
If you ran a 32, you had to keep it in notch 3 ... if you tried to COAST, they WOULDN'T ... just didn't have it in them. If you wrapped it back to the window the suckers slowed down ... do that in an R1/9'er and they just maintained ... wailing and all with power DOWN. And they were even happier when I listened to what my motor instructor (I guess they're called TSS's today) told me NOT to tell anyone they showed me ... dropping the reverser. Heh. He referred to it as "watts for tots" or energy-saving mode and then told me how it was on the BMT years earlier where you put a key into a slot and actually got *PAID* for running this way ... man, I was in HEAVEN ...
Once you got those babies up to speed and you weren't climbing a grade, WHAT POWER? Heh. But the 32's were party poopers ... had to KEEP it wrapped and heaven forfend you took your hand off the throttle. I *hated* those things ... but that was just ONE of the reasons why I loved my R1/9'ers ... treat them right, and they treated YOU right if you knew how to cuddle them.
I could always tell when power was reapplied on the oldtimers, R-1/9s and BMT standards alike. The bull and pinion gears would just sing out. You didn't hear them when the train was coasting. A good example was my first Queens express run in May of 1968. Our R-6/7 E train coasted through the shortcut under Northern Blvd. at a good clip, then at 36th St. the motorman wrapped it. The gears bellowed out a resounding F# above middle C while we ripped past that station; it was a blur.
Never did any Queens runs, not even a divert. While I've ridden it as a kid as part of my youthful interest in having ridden every line to everywhere at some point in my life, never really did Queens that much. But CPW and the Concourse and 34th to W4 were pretty fair, and the Brighton mainline which I actually ran was strange in that even with full power, for some reason trains just didn't want to "go" in Brooklyn like they did once they got back into their native IND territory. Voltage was lower on the BMT and apparently the substation distribution wasn't quite what it was on the IND either - between substations, I'd be surprised if there was 450 on the shoes at some points along the stretches and in rush hour, it was WORSE.
That's when you say, "Everybody out and push!"
If only I had a Chrysler 300 for motive power ahead of me. Heh.
I've noticed on some segments of the third rail, there are what appears to be a two inch wide by 3/16 inch thick strip of aluminum bolted or sometimes clipped to the third rail.
Is this to prevent line drop?
Ive seen it on the viaduct of the #7 line, and on some of the up hill grades of the Rockaway branch near Howard beach and Aqueduct.
Has anyone noticed the before and after differences?
Are there many other locations where this or similar high conductive material is in some way bonded to the third rail?
avid
I have NO idea ... was this something done recently? (mid 1970's or later?) Don't recall seeing that but nothing would surprise me. I know that they redid the power distribution in Brooklyn several times over the years and with each one, the situation improved quite a bit.
Yes , I first noticed the Viaduct when it had major work on the concret portion during the mid 90's .
I used a similar trick with lionel track, using muliple lock-ons to overcome line drop caused by the medium and the many connections between track sections. Serious modelers solder the joints . So I guess full scale and modelers learn from each other.
avid
Yep ... and in modelling, if you do the trackwork on boards, you can run heavy duty wire underneath the track and bring up through-holes to several places along the rails. I don't claim to know much about the lectrical distribution other than what I heard when I was on the road, especially after complaining in the tower about the trains I had seemed sluggish and was about to write up a bad order only to find out that the sluggishness was "normal" ...
Can I start the fans? :o)
wayne
I'm still sitting shiva for #1208, the ONLY R-6-2 to survive the phaseout (I'm not counting the one that's a cafeteria over in England), and an unfair scrapping victim even though in restorable shape.
The R-6-2 is one carfleet I truly miss; they were full GE package and they kicked butt; some of the fastest trains I've ever ridden on were R-6-2s.
wayne
Finally got back to CIYD today. Took a walk around and counted a total of 8 R1/9's on the property. In addition to the ones I mentioned before (103, 491, 923, 925, 1000) I also found 381, 1300 and 1802. 1802 appears to be the best of the lot. They moved some cars around in the graveyard. They moved the 2 R16's to another track which can now be seen from the F line and have now put the D types, fresh from their trip on the road, in the graveyard. Right behind the R16's is single unit #9321 which has been stripped. Cheers!
Hello ANDIS !!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, sounds like we've got us a CC run ... anybody got wrenches? :)
That sounds great! Some cars are stacked with spare parts that I think it would take a few days just to clean them out. It must have been something to operate those guys. Today's trains are so easy to operate compared to the R1/9's I've been told. You really had to work'em. I was just a baby when I was on them, terrified to death of the fans thinking they were going to grab me!
Heh. They probably could have ... actually they were cream puffs (when they worked) ... the REAL trick with them was to take a good full service app to slow them down a bit and then "feather 'em" to a stop. You had to know the feel but once you did (and back in those days you got more than enough school car and hands on with a motor instructor until you did) you could do it with your eyes closed.
I'm sure they all need a good bit of work before they're road worthy and they could be as cantankerous as a steam loco sometimes but they weren't all that hard to play ... then again, this "one handle stuff" of today's toys and just pull the handle back and it'll stop itself ain't natural to me at all. Two-fisted operation was once a way of life. Heh.
But yeah, your right hand was kept busy but they were actually forgiving if you weren't afraid to actually yank the wrench. :)
Tell the truth - wouldn't you want to assume the position at least once and work the triggers and caps? I'd do it in a heartbeat, even if my fingers have gotten a bit stiff in the recent years!
That was a dream of mine - playing conductor on a train of R-1/9s. I got a big kick out of watching conductors on the step plates.
When I was 19, car monkey was fun ... when ya get a bit older and remember that them plates can fall off under ya ... well, it'd take a few beers first. And of course, work rules would seriously frown on that practice. But yeah, I'd play second fiddle if it was available but I've already served my time on conductor duty and didn't get QUITE enough throttle time. :)
Hey - throw in 100 and 484 and we've got ourselves a D train!
All I need is three cars with motors and 6 of them with brake shoes and it'll be like old times. Heh. Consist of ten coming up. Hell ... did up another single and we've got an E train to Hudson Terminal.
In that case, we'd need two conductors.
And the problem with THAT would be? Be happy to show you how to get the gates out of your way, how to use the grab bars and where to stand if'n ya doesn't already know. You reach for the box underneath, pull the two triggers away from the car and you've opened up. Pop the bottlecaps to close up and watch for your pretty red lights at the doorline ... then they all go out, happy days.
And I'd even be happy to show you how to rock the doors on the far car and how to flip the valve and lock 'em down if ya wants. Buzz-buzz. :)
I had the good fortune of being able to assume the position between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum six years ago, when you could still do so. My first words after climbing onto the step plates and grabbing hold of the trigger boxes? "Man, I've always wanted to do this!" You can still work the triggers from the platform, but it's not the same as standing on the step plates.
And it feels MUCH more "right" when wearing railroad gloves. That's why the clearances are what they are. And when you were on the road long enough, the gloves picked up enough steel dust for that "no slip grip" ... heh. Yeah, you could open up from the platform too. That's the reason why they used to have platform conductors for the R1/9's and R10's at Columbus Circle - guy'd just walk up and pull and pop 'em for ya. Kinda hard to do it with the door controls inside a cab. Another tradition lost in the land of shiny subway cars. :)
I remember using the center platform at 59th in 1969, but don't recall seeing any platform conductors. I'll take your word for it. I do remember boarding a D train of R-32s from that platform once. The doors opened up to the right first, then a few seconds later the doors opened to the center platform. The conductor must have moved to the cab in the next car.
Yep ... that's how it worked with the door controls INSIDE the train. For the R1's through the R10's though, there was a guy there on the platform who'd walk up and operate the center side for you. If he didn't show, you'd have to climb down and do it yourself but that was RARE ... they'd open up northbound and southbound during the rush hour times that platform was opened.
Once it got to being the responsibility of the conductor on the train though, it could really slow up a departure since you had to close up the center first (barring morons) then go to the other side and close the side facing the wall and hope that nothing happened on the other side. I can see absent the outside controls that it would have turned into a losing proposition and they just abandoned the center platform so trains wouldn't be stuck there half of forever. Sometimes progress results in limitations ...
On that particular day in 1969, we took an A from 42nd St. to 59th St. first. It was a train of R-10s, of course, and IIRC the doors opened to the center platform literally seconds after the doors opened to the right. We got off onto the center platform. When that D train pulled in, I just hoped it would also open up to the center platform, which it did. It was cool not having to go up one flight of stairs and down a second flight.
That was the logic ... amazingly a LOT of people transferred across the platform there. It wasn't like the guy stationed there was wasted talent.
Can we rent 1689 for that 11th car? (that'd take care of a motor, brakes AND a running compressor) ...
Does anyone know when/Why the walls that encase the ROW desend into Bergen Street on the Culver were painted? and why only one section and not the rest? Covered up some legendary GRaffiti, This might be the Ourpose but why only a small section was painted overr, and a lousy job done at best.
What is the difference between a "scissor switch" and a "diamond crossover"?
- Lyle Goldman
I may be giving you a bum steer but since there are no other replies yet: the only place I have seen the term scissor switch or scissor crossover was in model railroad parlance [by a manufacturer]. I've never heard the term used anywhere from NYCT to BN to MRL.
I have heard the term diamond crossover used on NYCT, and seen the word used in reference to such on a lot of other lines as well. I don't know if such an animal exists on the Montana lines I worked, can't think of one as nearly all mains are single track.
The diamond refers to the portion where the tracks cross in the center of the complex. I tried....
A diamond crossover is where there is a crossover from 1 Track to 2 Track and another from 2 Track to 1 Track. Where the two crossovers cross each other, they form a diamond shape, hence the name.
In NYCT there is only one scissor switch (and I don't know if it is still in service). It is located on the wash track in Concourse Yard. To get to the wash, you approach a switch that is set against you. When you receive the lineup on the signal, the switch is still set against you. You operate through the switch, effectively splitting it. When the whole train has cleared the switch, the points "scissor" back, so that you may now proceed through the switch again with it set correctly.
That's a "spring" switch
Or a trailable switch.
We have three spring switch crossovers and one yard springswitch lead on SIRTOA's Mainline.
"In NYCT there is only one scissor switch (and I don't know if it is still in service). It is located on the wash track in Concourse Yard."
99 Switch (as it is correctly called) is still alive and well after a 6 month rest while parts were fabricated for it.
We have two operational spring switches at the Seashore Trolley Museum. One at the entrance to each of our main line loops. This allows trolleys to enter in the "normal" direction and exit without having to throw the switch. Of course, the Dispatcher can issue orders to make reverse moves if desired.
In real railroading the engineer has to be careful when taking the role of a switchman. Trying to trail through a non-trailable switch or (even worse) a spiked switch results in a bad time for everyone.
What's a "spiked" switch?
It is when rail spikes are driven into the tie in such a way that it renders the switch points immobile. SOS: Spiked Out of Service
In the old days, when a switch was literally "spiked" with rail spikes so that it could not operate; in today's terminology, it indicates a switch that has been fixed in one position so that it cannot be operated, either by spiking or by some other means, including the use of locks that the train and section crews do not have keys for (normally, this would also entail disabling the electro-pnuematic or electric switch machine if it is so equipped).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BOth of those terms are slightly different than the terms that I am familliar with. They are almost like mixed metaphores. I will attempt to answer them here.
A scissor switch is a full crossover where there is limited space. The tracks do a =x= type of thing and you need a the two turnouts to cross eachother in the middle. They are also called a scissors crossover or an X-over.
A diamond crossover is where tracks meet at grade and form a diamond configuration. A scissors switch contains a diamond crossover. These are typically called a diamond crossing or just diamonds.
Then there's the "Double-Crossover," also containing a diamond...
A double slip switch does not contain a true diamond as the diamond points are movable and thus it looses it diamondness.
--diamondacity?
--diamondaciousness?
A scissor switch is like the one on WMATA's Orange line at Ballston. A diamond is like on the WMATA Red line at Friendship Heights.
Considering I am totally unfamiliar with the Washington Metro, that doesn't help me one bit.
- Lyle Goldman
I still have to put links and other information in the last column of the last page, and I've still got to check over the whole thing for typos and consistency and whatnot, and I still hav to link it up to my entry pages, but that's no reason not to let Subtalkers enjoy Alexander Nobler Cohen's excellent article Fallen Transit: The Loss of Rapid Transit on New York's Second Avenue, in the July Third Rail.
Though I don't agree with his emphasis on every single point, this is the best cohesive scholarship I've seen outlining how and why we ended up with only one rapid transit line on the East Side of Manhattan where we had three plus some very big promises 72 years ago.
Includes pictures and maps.
I would be grateful if anyone finds typos, obvious editing errors, dead or bad links, etc., please email me if you don't want to post them here.
Commercial: This is why history is more than boring stories of long-dead things. It tells us why things are the way they are. You know--"those who don't learn from history ... blah ... blah ... blah."
THANK YOU for this wonderful story ... so far, have spotted only the following - page 3, section marked "The Members of the First Avenue Association," "letterhead from 1940 listed the grou's Directors" (missing 'p')
Page 6, second column, under "LaGuardia pushes," 11 lines down from there, "tearing down the els. Amond them" (g instead of d for "among").
Page 8, third column, second line under heading, "inade-quate" appears to have been carried over from a previous formatting with unnecessary hyphen in the word as formatted.
Page 9, second column under "The Bronx is Not So Lucky," three lines up from the "DON'T CRAB NEXT MONTH" flyer citation, another hyphen in the word "unwit-tingly." Also in the 17th line of the third column, same page, a similar hyphen in "threat-ened."
Page 11, first column, an indeterminate "whoopsie" in a quote that is either a lack of a space or an unnecessary letter depending on the original article quoted ... line 13, column one - "Second Avenue el'as" ... dunno what's correct there.
Page 12, second column, misspell on line 6 - "corespondent" ...
Page 15, second column, line 4, hyphen in "con-cluded."
Pretty damned few errors and one HELL of a wonderful read ... THANKS!
well done, thanks
One criticism I have of the work is how it deals in such detail about everything up to 1950, then pretty much gives up and jumps to the present. Given the nature of the work up to that point, it would seem that it would continue to explain the creation of the MTA, the Program for Action and then explain the nature of the 1970s fiscal crisis that halted construction.
What's the point? 1950 was pretty much the obituary for it anyway. I'm still waiting for my R-11 to pull up to 72nd. :)
I enjoyed it a LOT given that the article was intended to show what a collosal lie the whole thing was ... that anything regarding the modern appears to me as the author just wanting to apply a wee bit of salt under the bandaid.
One criticism I have of the work is how it deals in such detail about everything up to 1950, then pretty much gives up and jumps to the present. Given the nature of the work up to that point, it would seem that it would continue to explain the creation of the MTA, the Program for Action and then explain the nature of the 1970s fiscal crisis that halted construction.
True, but then again the more recent stuff has been pretty well documented elsewhere. Concentrating on the pre-1950 history is actually more useful for many readers.
Nonetheless, a page on the original MTA plan might be in order, especially since it marks the second bond issue specifically for the Second Avenue Subway.
Moreover, it is worth noting (given what I read in the article about the politics surrounding the el abandonment) that unlike the original MTA plan, the Stubway does nothing for the Bronx and Queens.
In the original MTA plan, there was a turnout from the 63rd Street tunnel south on 2nd Avenue. Two services would arrive from the north, one of which would branch off down the Broadway line; it would be replaced by a line coming through 63rd Street from Queens.
Queens riders could have taken the train that went along that route to get to East Midtown, rather than joining the crush at 51st and Lex. They could take it to Downtown, rather than slogging crosstown and then down along 8th Avenue on the E.
I've seen a map of the new proposal. It includes the connection from Second Avenue TO 63rd Street, but not from 63rd St to 2nd Avenue southbound. Hence, no Queens trains southbound on Second Avenue. Not good.
Nonetheless, a page on the original MTA plan might be in order, especially since it marks the second bond issue specifically for the Second Avenue Subway
I guess I should do up a map and explanation on the 1968 proposal. That was the one that included West to North and South to East Connections at 63rd Street, extension to Dyre Avenue via the souther part of the NYW&B, and (as the expression goes) "much much more." (But first I've got to do the entry pages so those other than SubTalkers can see it.)
It was the height of Rockefeller's empire building. I guess he thought New York was as rich as, well, a Rockefeller.
Of course the fiscal crisis followed.
Sort of reminds me of the biblical injunction: "Pride Goeth Before Destruction; And a Haughty Spirit Before a Fall."
I wish I had patience to read the whole article; no wonder so many railfans who lived in that period hated LaGuardia. He was also anti-trolley.
Whether the 2nd Ave structure would have survived into our times is another story...but it was the strongest and the logical line to be kept since it also had a Queens branch. Steel subway cars and H&M steel cars were run on it in tests [with passengers???]3rd ave. was always the busier line but I expect that was because of a somewhat better location.
One elevated should have been kept at least until there was a replacement, period. Turns out the replacement never transpired,but should have.
As for neighborhoods a lot of neighborhoods survived having els [the Czech and German neighborhoods on 2nd and 3rd ave. thrived and some areas that had demolished els saw no improvement. Admittedly they were noisy; what was considered ugly was in a period when everything old was bad. Had the line been kept [at least 2nd or 3rd] the beauty of the stations could have been restored andbe landmarks today. Look at the Chicago el out of the loop[north side] and some of the closer neighborhoods that have been built up quite nicely. Including even new construction people don't seem to mind.
I can go on and on and may duplicate some other posts but as the years since my youth have proven things don't get done in New York anymore. OK, some important things. So the east side commute will be misery for years to come. But if not 2nd ave, preferably, then the 3rd ave el should have been renovated and kept at least in the interim. Who knows, we might still have one of them today.
One criticism I have of all the proposals I've seen is that they assume that everyone wants to go south and west or north and east.
In the original MTA plan, southbound riders on upper 2nd Avenue can continue down 2nd Avenue or can go west to 7th Avenue and Broadway, and westbound riders from Queens can go down 2nd Avenue or 6th Avenue. If anything, that duplicates current service patterns. Shouldn't there also be provisions for service that goes south and east? For instance, hook up the CPW IND to the 63rd Street line so one service can go down CPW, across 63rd, and down 2nd -- or, as I've proposed in the past, build a four-track line on 2nd Avenue and send the local west across 125th Street with transfers to all intersecting lines.
Under the MTA plan, how would someone get from a 1/2/3/9 station above 59th Street to lower 2nd Avenue? Option 1: 1/2/3/9 to 42nd, 2nd Avenue-Broadway line to the first stop north of 63rd, cross over to the SB 2nd Avenue line. (That's three trains and an awful lot of backtracking.) Option 2: 1/9 to 59th, B/D to 47-50, cross over to F (via 63rd) to Roosevelt Island, cross over to SB Queens-2nd Avenue line. (That's four trains and even more backtracking.)
One criticism I have of the work is how it deals in such detail about everything up to 1950, then pretty much gives up and jumps to the present. Given the nature of the work up to that point, it would seem that it would continue to explain the creation of the MTA, the Program for Action and then explain the nature and causes of the 1970s fiscal crisis that halted construction.
It's an interesting piece although a bit one-sided. Lacking was
any real discussion of the demolition of the 3rd avenue line in
Manhattan and the bond issue that was floated to replace it with
the 2nd avenue subway...monies which went elsewhere. Also lacking
was note of the irony that the 2nd avenue el was scrapped for
wartime steel for "our side", whereas the 6th avenue scrap wound
up in Japan.
Paul, I just wanted to throw in that I really enjoyed reading the rapidtransit.net article about the demise of the els and the history of the not-yet-built second avenue subway. Is that the only place it's published? It seems like an awful lot of research went into it. Perhapse you should compile the various articles, bind them, and sell them at the transit museum...
Just a thought.
Alex Cohen originally wrote the piece as a college thesis. I believe he may be going in the direction of a professional career in transit. I hope so.
Many people in transit are railfans, both "suits" and operating personnel, and working as consultants, etc. I guess most people don't realize this--they think of railfans as only being guys in overalls and engineer's caps with six cameras. ;-)
I very well may expand on rapidtransit.net material in print, if the demand is there. This is something I have experience with, It's a question of time and expense.
The charm of a website is that it loses money, but only a LITTLE money. ;-)
While I have no financial interest in any of these sets, there are (3) R-21 sets for sale on E-Bay. All have Protosound II. The item #s are 1608327296, 1608608050, & 1608965705
Well, it's final ... we're calling in the NTSB on Microsquat Trainwreck. 20th set of disks, this time with a difference. We ditched "CompUSA" and bought a set from "Electronics Boutique" (a 30 mile drive each way in the handy asphalt tank) and the disks were GOOD! Only a few scratches and a decent amount of gypsum dust (?!?!?!) on them which washed off. Got all the way through the install for once without "Failed to verify media, installation cancelled" for a change.
ALAS, when the load had completed consuming 1,823,000,000 bytes (1.8+ gigabytes) of hard disk, when I went to run it, it IMMEDIATELY broke, insisting that there was a major crash in "D3Dxx700.DLL" and insisted on sending black box results to Redmond for arbitration. Didn't care WHO it was that had a problem, only wanted to ship back a report. Decided to take a look at the data it wanted to send back to Billy and lo and behold, the "memory image" it wanted to send included some very proprietary information including the source code for the products we manufacture here (in tech jargon, the exact blueprints of our DESIGNS!) with the usual Microsoft assurances that "our privacy is important" ... uh-huh ...
Well, that puppy's been red-bagged and is going back to the digital landfill from which it was summoned. Therefore, as a considered technical expert in internet privacy and security, I'm officially on company letterhead declaring "Microsoft Train Simulator" as TOXIC. Just figured I'd pass the word along, it's back to Mechanik for me.
As an aside, spent the night looking for ANY kind of result and managed to get BVE running with the very nice Flushing line add-on for it and though it's a short run and the track curves and operation aren't as smooth as Mechanik - the work done by Ernie Alston is quite impressive given the limitations of BVE for smooth graphics and refresh rates. Mechanik may be "blocky" in its graphics, but much smoother than BVE in "operation."
Genuine pity about MicroCrap Trainwreck ... I hope NTSB sentences him to a very stiff sentence for the carnage that unpolished turd created on this end of the pipe and I'll be sure to warn others about it. They made monkeys of a fine Japanese company and have shamed them. Juku or whoever ... I'm ONE cheesed off puppy for all the personal time that piece of crap cost me for nothing.
If you were considering buying a copy ... ****DON'T!!!**** Better to lick a third rail on all fours with buss bar around your ankles connected to the nearest home ball post ...
D3Dxx700.DLL, I believe that file has to do with Direct X's Direct 3D. The 700 leads me to believe you have 7.0 installed. Go try and download Direct X 8a. It's at "www.microsoft.com/directx"
Direct X 8.0 was installed from the Seedyrom ... yet it looks for D3DIM700.DLL ... hey, I didn't write the code. Our stuff WORKS! :)
NTSB has the Chrysler cruisers with the bubblegum machines on the roof lit and wailing ... what can I say? ... it's going back ... when you realize how lame BVE is for graphics quality (running in Windows instead of DOS like mechanik - mechanik's downside is the low resolution (320x400) but it has actual track curves that are ROUND and a very good refresh rate at that lower resolution.
Microtrain Trainwreck uses the same lame, stolen from Linux 3GL graphics as BVE and the NXSYS "cab view" piece ... wonder why Billy's been wailing about Linux and "open source?" That's because Microsoft got sued for stealing the "intellectua; Property" from "OpenGL" and cobbing it to Windows and then doing it poorly.
I'm ONE grumpy puppy at the moment ... Microsquat stole another 60 hours out of my life for NOTHING, and I want it BACK ... :)
Last comment ... here's balls ... I called the support number and they wanted to CHARGE ME FOR IT!!!!!!! That's it, red bag waste, NTSB paperwork ... I'm filing a grievance. :)
It sounds like this crap behaves the same way as did the Microsoft Network (when Windows 95 was in beta testing; after that was discovered none of my friends has used it since so I don't know if it still does) in terms of sending private information back to Bill's hideout in Redmond.
I wonder if they like to read my email on Hotmail to make sure I'm not discussing pirating their quality products with my friends?
-Robert King
Hotmail? Yipe! You are *so* screwed ... not only do THEY read the email, they're broken into three times a week or more and passwords stolen and more ... if you've got one of their "passport" thingies, it ain't like the Canadien passports, welcome anywhere and how 'bout them Cuban stogies ... whooops ... forgot downstaters were listening. Heh.
I'm way too close to "L'Aseemblie Nationale du Quebec" here ... let's NOT let the kids in NYC in on all this ... Fidel makes good smoke. :)
I haven't had a security problem with Hotmail yet. I hope whoever or whatever that may be reading my email is interested in trains because if they're not, then they're in for a very long and boring read.
-Robert King
Heh. Hotmail *is* the leading source of viruses if you leave "MS Javascript," "ActiveX" or "Windows Scripting Host" lit ... if they're off, no problem ... but they're on by default ... anyway, don't want to take this even further off track ... but if they're bored by yours, then they'll just move on to someone else. :)
I'll just say I feel much better knowing that I use Netscape, and leave it at that.
I'm sorry about all your trouble, but I just installed my copy today with no problems. Runs fine. I bought mine at Staples. I also installed DirectX8a today before installing MS Train Sim.
The Montague tunnel can only take 3 lines. Therefore, it has to be 2 from Nassau, 1 from Bway or the other way around. Closing off service to Broadway to create 3 Nassau St-Brooklyn lines is out of the question. People got to get from Bklyn to Whitehall and to the Financial District. Recently, it has been 2 to Broadway, N and R and 1 to Nassau, the M. However, tough times getting to Chinatown can allow a reversal for this. Here's what my ideas are:
For when Manny B is switched but no 63rd St.
B: Bedford Pk to 34th St
D: 205th to 34 th St
F: same
J: extended down Brighton local to Coney Island {can be switched with Z}
M: being that there'll be only 1 train going the whole length of 6th Ave, the M can go Metropolitan-Nassau Lcl-through KK connection-6th Ave local with F to 57/6, shuttle from Grand to Bway Lafayette
N: same except via bridge
Q: ONLY CIRCLE, diamond Q is gone, Brighton exp from Brighton Bch to bridge to Queensbridge.
R: same
W: same
Z: extended down 4th Ave ends wherever it is needed, preferably Bay Pkwy since there's no more M
Explanation: M goes to 6th Ave to serve the unserved 57/6 and to help the F with the 6th Ave loads. N can go over bridge since there is only one Q line not two. It can't fit in tunnel anyway. Diamond Q unneccessary because of J on Brighton. Q goes to Queensbridge because there is nothing running out there until the F goes there when 63rd opens.
When 63rd IS open:
No more M, make the V go through KK connection and run as M to Metropolitan, on off-hours shuttle Metro-Myrtle just like M
J/Z as explained above extended into Brooklyn. Option: rename the entire V line the M. Q/W: one goes to Astoria via Astoria exp, the other ends at Lex/63rd and goes back to Broadway.
As has been discussed in connection with the Queens Blvd. line, it's the number of trains that is limited, not the number of different labels you put on them.
Exellent Plan!!!!!!!!!
This is preferable to the TA's plan? Believe it or not, most Brighton local passengers aren't looking to go to Broad, Fulton, or Chambers. And the Queens V needs full-length trains, which won't fit on the BMT Eastern Division.
I'm sure you're right that not a lot of Brighton Passengers need to go tBroad, Fulon, & Chambers.
However, a LOT of people need to get from Chinatown to downtown Brooklyn, or why all the fuss about closing the Grand Street connection. While it's a bit of a walk (to Bowery), if there was simply more "M" service, for example on mid-days and weekend for the duration of work on the M/B, these folks might catch a break.
It might also revive the Bowery station
I'm sure you're right that not a lot of Brighton Passengers need to go tBroad, Fulon, & Chambers.
However, a LOT of people need to get from Chinatown to downtown Brooklyn, or why all the fuss about closing the Grand Street connection. While it's a bit of a walk (to Bowery), if there was simply more "M" service, for example on mid-days and weekend for the duration of work on the M/B, these folks might catch a break.
The fuss is because people like making fusses.
My impression is that the issue is specifically service to points further south on the B (W), not downtown Brooklyn, so sending the J to Brighton wouldn't even help much.
And I agree that the TA should seriously consider running the M to Brooklyn days and weekends.
But this really isn't a big deal. Chinatown probably has the best subway service for any residential neighborhood citywide: Grand, Canal, the Bowery, East Broadway, Essex/Delancey. So some people will have to walk a few blocks or change trains? Big deal!
I don't know why you say the Bowery is "a bit of a walk" -- it's two short blocks away from Grand. Canal isn't much further -- about two short blocks plus two long blocks (the distance from Chrystie to Centre is about equal to the distance from Second to Lex). And let's not forget that, for some people, Canal is already more convenient than Grand.
There is really very little to complain about. Yes, people will be confused for a few days.
Back to the point of this thread: Do you really think it's worth it to force nearly all Brighton local passengers to change trains so that a few people in Chinatown will save a few minutes on the walk to the station? Oh, and New Flyer's plan also reduces lower Manhattan Broadway BMT service to the R alone -- so now Nassau, which is only useful to a few and doesn't serve any points in Manhattan north of Delancey, has better service than the lower Broadway line?! (If the N switches to the express track at Canal, there will be switching delays there. If the N runs express all the way, all the local stations along Broadway will be grossly underserved.)
I agree with everything except one point:
"Without N, Lower manhattan Broadway Stations are underserved."
I don't think that the R will have a problem handling the passengers. Remeber, the people heading N. of City Hall will most likely take the N train.
You underestimate the number of people in Brooklyn who desire stations south of Canal St. Only if the R ran at F-like headways would only one line do.
"But this really isn't a big deal. Chinatown probably has the best subway service for any residential neighborhood citywide:
Grand, Canal, the Bowery, East Broadway, Essex/Delancey. So some people will have to walk a few blocks or change trains?
Big deal! "
I agree that two blocks isn't that far away but ultimately mass transit is about serving the needs of all of this city's communities and for a significant proportion of those people who live and/or work in Chinatown closing Grand St is a 'big deal'. Check recent NY Times articles for the exact number, but, it suffices to say that anyone who has ridden through the Grand St station in the past ten years has an idea of the incredible volume of people who use that station.
We know that the MTA didn't consult with the communities affected by the MB situation prior to making a plan. No small part of the Grand St issue is based on just that: The MTAs making unilateral decisions and not truly giving a #@$% about us "customers".
"Back to the point of this thread: Do you really think it's worth it to force nearly all Brighton local passengers to change trains so
that a few people in Chinatown will save a few minutes on the walk to the station? "
Again, the MTA didn't asked the Brighton local passengers what they wanted either. The communities served by the J/M/Z in Bklyn (yes, there is more than one) and those served by the 4th ave and the Brighton are strongly connected and could also potentially benifit from a full time J/Z or M link. Also, a full time link might be a benifit for the more than 'a few people' who regularly have to find creative ways to get to the east side below midtown from the 6th Ave lines.
"Oh, and New Flyer's plan also reduces lower
Manhattan Broadway BMT service to the R alone -- so now Nassau, which is only useful to a few and doesn't serve any points
in Manhattan north of Delancey, has better service than the lower Broadway line?! "
Hmmn, based on my personal experience on having to regularly ride the N/R to a lower Manhattan stop daily, I'd suggest that people would survive and that the inconvience might not be as traumatic as one might think. But, then the MTA never asked those riders what their needs were either.
Oh, one last point, the J/M/Z stations in lower Manhattan (up to Canal) are no farther away from this area's N/R stations than Grand is from Bowery. But only a crazy person would suggest that we Lower Manhattan dwellers and workers suffer the indignity of walking a couple of extra blocks to get our train or give up our one-seat rides.
>>I agree that two blocks isn't that far away but ultimately mass transit is about serving the needs of all of this city's communities and for a significant proportion of those people who live and/or work in Chinatown closing Grand St is a 'big deal'. Check recent NY Times articles for the exact number, but, it suffices to say that anyone who has ridden through the Grand St station in the past ten years has an idea of the incredible volume of people who use that station.
We know that the MTA didn't consult with the communities affected by the MB situation prior to making a plan. No small part of the Grand St issue is based on just that: The MTAs making unilateral decisions and not truly giving a #@$% about us "customers".<<
Look, work is being done on the manhattan bridge. People will be inconvenienced. Let them get up and walk a few blocks. So Canal St. is already crowded. Send the "M" only to Brooklyn (of the broad St. lines) .
>>Again, the MTA didn't asked the Brighton local passengers what they wanted either. The communities served by the J/M/Z in Bklyn (yes, there is more than one) and those served by the 4th ave and the Brighton are strongly connected and could also potentially benifit from a full time J/Z or M link. Also, a full time link might be a benifit for the more than 'a few people' who regularly have to find creative ways to get to the east side below midtown from the 6th Ave lines.<<
I'm no expert on the brighton lines, but I don't think the majority of riders originate from Chinatown.
>>Hmmn, based on my personal experience on having to regularly ride the N/R to a lower Manhattan stop daily, I'd suggest that people would survive and that the inconvience might not be as traumatic as one might think. But, then the MTA never asked those riders what their needs were either.
Oh, one last point, the J/M/Z stations in lower Manhattan (up to Canal) are no farther away from this area's N/R stations than Grand is from Bowery. But only a crazy person would suggest that we Lower Manhattan dwellers and workers suffer the indignity of walking a couple of extra blocks to get our train or give up our one-seat rides.<<
No, it wouldn't. But remeber that more people do and always will ride the Broadway line. I think that the R alone could pick up the slack if the Whitehall short-turns became full runs. Plus, Whitehall is some distance from Broad St. (Rector is literally a block over from it though) and Cortdlandt is some distance from Fulton. I think that it would be much to ask people to walk a block when your train could run through your stop.
Guys, remeber something when 'routing' trains:
The TA never likes to snub passengers in order to gain ones that might not come. So, the Lower Manhattan Broadway line will keep the N and R because they already have riders. The Nassau line is a question mark right now. Whose to say that these people don't take the shuttle one stop for an F, or 2 shuttles up to 34th for a W or Q? The TA will not cut service to a line that already gets ridership in an attempt to lure other riders.
2 things wrong with your analogy:
1. Nothing else can be done about the Manhattan bridge situation. It must be closed for repairs or it will eventually fall into the river. No other plan could possibly exist that would be better than the current one. You can't blame the TA for not listening to it's customers here when these customers cannot physically get anything they might demand.
2. As a temporary service change, no public hearings, or input, is necessary. Since alternatives don't exist, none would do any good anyway.
I agree that two blocks isn't that far away but ultimately mass transit is about serving the needs of all of this city's communities and for a significant proportion of those people who live and/or work in Chinatown closing Grand St is a 'big deal'.
The TA can't possibly serve everyone's needs in an ideal fashion. No matter what, some people are going to have to walk a few blocks and some people are going to have to transfer.
Chinatown has it great. I don't think any other neighborhood of comparable area has so many stations on so many different lines. Even after July 22, Chinatown will still be a lot better off than just about every other residential neighborhood. Direct Brighton and West End service will move from one part of the neighborhood to another, and indirect service will be better. This isn't a service cut.
Canal is eight minutes from Grand, mezzanine to mezzanine. I timed it yesterday, walking at a moderately rapid pace through moderately heavy crowds. (For the reference, I walked Grand to the Bowery to Hester to Centre to Canal.)
Check recent NY Times articles for the exact number, but, it suffices to say that anyone who has ridden through the Grand St station in the past ten years has an idea of the incredible volume of people who use that station.
Yes, it's pretty crowded, but I highly doubt it's in the top ten. (Anybody here have the stats?) And keep in mind that, for many in that crowd, Canal is more convenient, but they walk to Grand for the service they need. (If everybody walked to the absolute closest station, regardless of service, one would expect the Bowery to be just about as crowded as Grand. In fact, it's desolate -- it is, or was until recently -- the most desolate station in Manhattan.)
We know that the MTA didn't consult with the communities affected by the MB situation prior to making a plan. No small part of the Grand St issue is based on just that: The MTAs making unilateral decisions and not truly giving a #@$% about us "customers".
Perhaps you're not aware of the situation. The New York City Department of Transportation owns and maintains (or pretends to maintain) the Manhattan Bridge. The TA is just a tenant. NYCDOT is evicting the TA, so to speak, from the north side tracks and readmitting the TA to the south side tracks (in an attempt to keep the bridge from landing in the water). The Grand Street tracks connect to the north side tracks and only the north side tracks. Without spending millions of dollars on a connection that wouldn't be completed until after the north side tracks reopened anyway, there is simply no way the TA could possibly run service through Grand.
Now, I do think that the TA should have expanded the M's hours to Brooklyn and run the 63rd Street shuttle (or the V, after November) directly to Grand. But nothing can run south from Grand, and sending other Brooklyn lines up Nassau would hurt far more people than it would help.
Again, the MTA didn't asked the Brighton local passengers what they wanted either. The communities served by the J/M/Z in Bklyn (yes, there is more than one) and those served by the 4th ave and the Brighton are strongly connected and could also potentially benifit from a full time J/Z or M link. Also, a full time link might be a benifit for the more than 'a few people' who regularly have to find creative ways to get to the east side below midtown from the 6th Ave lines.
Are you really suggesting that more Brighton local passengers are bound for the Nassau line than for the Broadway line?!
Creative ways? Only if transferring across the platform at Pacific or DeKalb to the M/N/R requires much creativity. After July 22, they'll also be able to transfer upstairs at Canal.
Hmmn, based on my personal experience on having to regularly ride the N/R to a lower Manhattan stop daily, I'd suggest that people would survive and that the inconvience might not be as traumatic as one might think. But, then the MTA never asked those riders what their needs were either.
I don't understand. Is paralysis more prevalent in the Chinese community than elsewhere? If not, why do you expect lower Manhattan N/R riders to walk while claiming that an eight-minute walk or a two-block walk plus a transfer is out of the question in Chinatown?
Oh, one last point, the J/M/Z stations in lower Manhattan (up to Canal) are no farther away from this area's N/R stations than Grand is from Bowery. But only a crazy person would suggest that we Lower Manhattan dwellers and workers suffer the indignity of walking a couple of extra blocks to get our train or give up our one-seat rides.
Oops, you forgot that not everyone is coming from Brooklyn. By sending the N on the bridge, you've just doubled the headways for everyone coming from further north in Manhattan and the Bronx and forced a transfer on Astoria residents.
In 1999, Grand Street was #27 in the system, with 8,434,287 riders.
David
Thanks, I was hoping you'd chime in.
Which other stations in mixed residential-commercial areas have comparable numbers?
Again, 1999 annual figures:
86th Street-Lexington Avenue: 16,164,926
Main Street-Flushing: 15,673,443
59th Street-Columbus Circle: 15,664,595
59th Street-Lexington Avenue: 15,626,264
74th Street-Roosevelt Avenue: 12,729,768
14th Street-Sixth/Seventh Avenues: 12,368,019
W. 4th Street: 11,850,912
Jamaica Center: 10,793,077
Utica Avenue-Eastern Parkway: 8,157,160
David
Thanks, I was hoping you'd chime in.
Which other stations in mixed residential-commercial areas have comparable numbers?
I'm assuming you have the list of this. I'm interested, can you email or provide a hyperlink to the copy?
Unfortunately, neither. I have a print copy.
Write to NYCT and ask for the information. It's in book form.
David
Could you just tell me who's in the top 3 and the bottom 3.
1999 Annual fare registrations:
1. 42 St-Times Sq (1,2,3,7,9,A,C,E,N,R,S) 43,633,850
2. 42 St-Grand Central (4,5,6,7,S) 36,246,233
3. 34 St-Herald Sq (B,D,F,N,Q,R) 30,374,951
422. Beach 105 St (A,S) 72,325
423. Park Pl (Franklin Ave S) 69,661
424. Aqueduct (A) 42,611
Source: Subway and Bus Ridership Report 1998/1999, Oct. 2000
423. Park Pl (Franklin Ave S) 69,661
This one shouldn't count because it wasn't open the whole year! And Aqueduct is only part time. What were 420 and 421?
420. Beach 44 St (A) 117,939
421. Broad Channel (A,S) 84,381
Park Pl was #415 in 1997, with 164,282. 1999 average weekday ridership would put it at #407, which is a good approximation of where its annual number would stand had it been open the entire year (not accounting for seasonal variations).
how long was Park Pl open in 1999?
I'm sorry: those top 3 go without saying!!! I should've of that before hand- could you send the next few, maybe the top 10? Thanks for sending this!
Here are the Top 9; #10 is 86 St on the Lex at 16.1 million. The Franklin Ave Shuttle reopened 10/18/99.
[Now, I do think the TA should have expanded the M's hours to Brooklyn....]
The obvious thing would be to swap the M and W on the West End Line - i.e. run the M from Stillwell to Metropolitan at all times and the W from Bay Parkway to Ditmars weekdays only.
HOWEVER, it's already expected that the same NYCDOT construction that's closing off the north-side bridge tracks entirely will also close the south-side bridge tracks on most weekends. Thus, either the Q *or* the W will be forced into the Montague Tunnel with the N/R; there isn't room in the tunnel for four services, nor (to the best of my knowledge) have four services ever used the tunnel simultanously. THAT is why the W is being truncated at Pacific on weekends (and why a 24/7 thru-M would also end up being truncated on weekends).
>>HOWEVER, it's already expected that the same NYCDOT construction that's closing off the north-side bridge tracks entirely will also close the south-side bridge tracks on most weekends. Thus, either the Q *or* the W will be forced into the Montague Tunnel with the N/R; there isn't room in the tunnel for four services, nor (to the best of my knowledge) have four services ever used the tunnel simultanously. THAT is why the W is being truncated at Pacific on weekends (and why a 24/7 thru-M would also end up being truncated on weekends).<<
Why would that construction close off the South Side on most weekends? The north side rarely closed on weekends when it was in operation, and work on the South Side is virtually completed. Maybe there will be occasional work on the tracks, but any of this so-called NYCDOT work that you're talking about would result in closing the bridge for days. No weekend work would suffice.
>>The obvious thing would be to swap the M and W on the West End Line - i.e. run the M from Stillwell to Metropolitan at all times and the W from Bay Parkway to Ditmars weekdays only.<<
This is a terrible idea. More people will ride from the Broadway line than from the Broad St. line. Quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of hearing how M service MUST be extended so that the People in Chinatown don't have to submit themselves to the absolute worst form of transportation: walking!
Really, More people have always ridden the B than the M. I'm hearing about all this service the M is going to get at Bowery, but I ride the M fairly frequently, and everytime I see it, it's emptied out at Chambers. To ask these people to walk is not a big deal. Or, they can take the Grand St. shuttle 1 stop to B'way Lafayette and then take the F to 4th av, where they can transfer to the South Bklyn lines. If that's too big a deal for them, they can do a little walking and get on the W, or Q at Canal.
To be honest, no Brooklyn rider uses any line thru Montague street to get to midtown (these people always crush-load into the three Manhattan bridge lines). It just takes too long.
I always thought that bringing back the banker's specials was a good idea. 5 or 6 trains from both 95th St. and Coney Island via Brighton each ush hour would add enough service to both lines without clooging the bridge with more service. The only problem would be how you mark these routes. 2 M trains? 2 new letters?
so then what's wrong with my previous idea in message 229886?
WCBS Newsradio-880 is reporting that there is a proposal to reopen the old Fairchild LIRR station, and have it serve as the focal point for a new transportation hub.
Is this the old Republic station on the Central Branch just before the Ronkonkoma split?
A little searching and I answered my own question. Here's the story from Newsday.
That's better. I knew I never heard of a Fairchild station!
At first I thought maybe they meant Flowerfield.
I'm pretty sure that the Fairchild station is the one just east of the present Farmingdale station. There are still remnants there including a path down to route 110. Should the LIRR opt to re-open this station, I think it would have to be at the expense of the Farmingdale station. I'd estimate the distance between them is less than 1 mile and maintaininf two stations that close together would make as much sense as the Massapequa- Massapequa Park idiocy on the Babylon branch. BTW - those two stations are about 30 seconds apart when running express.
I'm pretty sure that the Fairchild station is the one just east of the present Farmingdale station. There are still remnants there including a path down to route 110. Should the LIRR opt to re-open this station, I think it would have to be at the expense of the Farmingdale station. I'd estimate the distance between them is less than 1 mile and maintaining of two stations that close together would make as much sense as the Massapequa- Massapequa Park idiocy on the Babylon branch. BTW - those two stations are about 30 seconds apart when running express.
I'm pretty sure that the Fairchild station is the one just east of the present Farmingdale station. There are still remnants there including a path down to route 110. Should the LIRR opt to re-open this station, I think it would have to be at the expense of the Farmingdale station. I'd estimate the distance between them is less than 1 mile and maintaining of two stations that close together would make as much sense as the Massapequa- Massapequa Park idiocy on the Babylon branch. BTW - those two stations are about 30 seconds apart when running express.
It's actually called Republic. While it is close to Farmingdale, it could be useful if park-and-ride lots are built on the land now occupied by rotting old factory buildings (not to mention the fact that there'd be a huge esthetic improvement in getting rid of those eyesores). Farmingdale itself doesn't seem to have any available parking.
On the other hand, putting more riders on the already grotesquely overcrowded Ronkonkoma line is a bit dubious.
If the LIRR reopens this station it appears it will be for passengers who work along the Rt 110 corridor only. Connections will have to be made to the current S-1 bus route and as the Newsday article that Todd Glickman spoke about in an earlier post a new bus route from this station to Huntington LIRR station has been proposed.
I do not anticipate that the LIRR will have any parking for commuters.
Thank You
Shhhhhhhhh. Of course you are absolutely correct. Ronkonkoma has become my line of last resort instead of my line of choice. It's unfortunate that our leaders and our experts cannot foresee a problem or address a problem until it becomes a crisis.
I happened to be on Rt. 110 Tuesday AM. Auto traffic can rival Queens Blvd. A transit hub - especially one that would handle the reverse commute would be an overnight success. Of course it would have to take into account new signals (CBTC) to increase capacity and a stub terminal with easy access to busses,cabs and storage for trains. What we'll likely get is another Pinelawn.
I happened to be on Rt. 110 Tuesday AM. Auto traffic can rival Queens Blvd. A transit hub - especially one that would handle the reverse commute would be an overnight success. Of course it would have to take into account new signals (CBTC) to increase capacity and a stub terminal with easy access to busses,cabs and storage for trains. What we'll likely get is another Pinelawn.
Another Pinelawn? That would be a "stiff" surprise!
I meant another platform that'll accommodate just 2 cars
Does the TA still have the work fences set up between the tracks on the 2/5 White Plains Road line north of Bronx Park East, and on the B West End line south of 9th Avenue? The fences were there last time I rode these lines in 2000.
Also, have these fences appeared on any other lines since then?
Jim D. (RailBus)
They're still up on the 2, don't know about the B. Most likely they're still there too.
Anyone know when they are scheduled to come down? Isn't the resignalling work they were put up for completed?
The fences were to that singal man do not have to be placed at so many points, IIRC.
The signal work is complete, but not all the new signals are activated as of yet.
The fences were so that workmen do not have to be placed at so many points, IIRC.
The signal work is complete, but not all the new signals are activated as of yet.
The work fences are starting to appear on the 2/5 south of East 180th Street. It's time for signal work to begin on this portion.
-Stef
They're beginning to take the fences down north of 180, while fence activity has begun at both W. Farms Sq. and Prospect Av.
I plan to be visiting NYC within the next several weeks. When are the Redbirds running these days on the Woodlawn and Pelham lines? Any chance of seeing the 'Birds during midday or Saturday hours on these lines?
Appreciate any info. Thanks!
Jim D. (RailBus)
The Redbirds definitely run on both the Woodlawn and Pelham lines during midday hours Monday through Friday. I think the Woodlawn Redbirds are kept in the yard on weekends, but you might still be able to find them on the Pelham line on weekends.
Don't go looking on the 4. While they do run, they are scarce and if you want one on the Lex express, take the number 5 which has all redbirds with the exception of a few R62As from Pelham for late nite OPTO. I also reccomend the 7 train.
OK, I'm preparing for my weekend trip to the big apple to ride the rails and have a question. Is there a booklet available from the MTA that has all the rail maps and schedules or do I need to print them out before I come to NYC? I'd like one booklet that has it all but that may be too much to ask for. If there is such an animal where do I get it?
Thanks in advance.
The rail and subway map is available in all stations.
The schedules for subways aren't, but the only lines where schedules matter are: M to South Brooklyn, 5 to the Bronx and Brooklyn, A to Far Rock (low headways) and Rock Pk (5 trains a day).
Railroad and SIR schedules are available at the appropriate terminals.
I don't know if they're still available but the Metrocard holders that are around have both the railroad map and subway map on the other side. In terms of schedules, in the subway they're really not that important at all unless you're traveling at night which I advise against. For railroads, they're at the terminals and most stations.
For those who haven't seen it look up New York Central Railroad website; you'll be able to find and click onto a nice article on the West Side Freight line when it was new. If interested.
Now if we could only imagine a rapid transit service over it! Some elevated trackage in mid-Manhattan!
Could you give us the link or address?
Dan
West Side Line
As a taxpaying New Yorker, I am extremely angered by the fact that this type of freight service into Manhattan was left to crumble for so many years and yet my tax dollars have been spent for so many years to build up freight service in New Jersey. No politician has yet to go after NYers tax dollars to rebuilt the much needed freight service into Manhattan. Why should I pay to help built intermodual stations on the other side of the Hudson that benefits NJ and not NY. Everthing coming into areas east the Hudson has to go through on trucks. Now we keep hearing talk about building a extra tunnel(s) under the Hudson for freight only usage, though this should have been built years ago. I'd like to know who got "paid off" for the mess. I know some freight might start coming into the South Bronx area, but more should go through to the Sunnyside yard in Queens as well.
This is why it is important to make sure that certain elected officials do not get too comfortable in office, and to keep them looking over their shoulders. Some of them will not care one whit about those who elected them to office, and they think that as long as they are in, they can do as they please. Give them a hotfoot, so tha they will make sure that the interests of the electorate are met, otherwise, OUT THEY GO!
In an ideal world that would work - but who is held accountable at the port athority? or maybe more correctly, who's getting paid under the table at the PA? Just look at this 'air train' fiasco - instead of reopening the old LIRR rockaway branch from white pot to a new line into JFK, they're building this shitty little air train that goes where? jamacia? who the hell wants to go to jamacia (other than people from LI, who'll just drive anyways?). How many other large cities on this planet have direct rail access to their airports, while we get a second rate train to nowhere?
The west side line is yet another example. even if just UPS and the USPS used it as i believed they wanted to a few years ago, there would be a lot less trucks on the roads around town. Something like 3% of freight comes into NYC via train, while it's around 30 or 40% in other major cities (if I recall my stats correctly).
The idiots responsible for things like this shouldn't be taken out of office or fired, they should be publically stoned to death, for wasting billions of dollars annaully on flawed projects...
True, but as long as this kind of nonsense is tolerated by the public, it will get worse.
To cover several of these posts in one I'll begin by saying New York City's public doesn't know the difference. The pols responsible for ths are probably long dead as this came about over 40 years ago..the virtual total abandonment of rail freight service into the city, the decay of the ship terminals, and consequent buildup of the big New Jersey marine ports and rail terminals. Add that New Jersey was kind of a promised land with [before factories moving to the Orient]a lot of small factories moving out there, city residents heading there, etc. I don't say this to mean that I think it's right...I agree with you people.I'd use 1960 for a benchmark year but it was beginning before that.
Say what they will that New York's port was outdated, and with modern shipping methods it was, but there's nothing to say it couldn't have been done somewhere on Manhattan Island that is building a modern port. But I kind of believe [back to line one] that city dwellers never did care anyway and welcomed the chance to move (along with jobs) as so many of our own brothers here have done as well.
Just as some claim that Albert Einstein's dismissal of dark energy was the greatest blunder of his career, other fools who understand absolutely nothing about transit sit in their armchairs and sneer at current designs for their apparent stupidity.
I'm struck by a contradiction in your argument. Your blood is boiling, and you have a strong opinion. In order to have a strong opinion, you should theoretically have the most fundamental knowledge of transit and engineering. Yet your ad hoc argument against the Port Authority is completely for want of technical insight, and resorts to nothing more than name-calling.
Maybe you would calm down if you stopped and thought about the matter? You'd live a lot healthier life.
"How many other large cities on this planet have direct rail access to their airports, while we get a second rate train to nowhere?"
Other airports have direct connections to rapid transit. What about us? Whaah.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe the layout of JFK is starkly different than the layout of airports in other cities? Have you ever even been to JFK? Have you ever been to other cities?
JFK consists of a series of decentralized terminals each with their own stand-alone ticketing, baggage, and check-in facilities. If I gave you your wish, and brought the rails right to the front steps of JFK, where would you connect them? Unlike other cities, there's no one centralized location at JFK. You would have to connect the subway to each terminal and the satellite parking lots.
Even if you had risen to the level of explicitly arguing for a direct subway connection to each terminal in light of the sprawling layout of JFK, you would still be missing the point. AirTrain was designed to serve two broader purposes:
1) To connect passengers in one terminal with another, and
2) To connect passengers with transportation points outside the airport grounds.
As I've said here before, the NYC subway is not well suited for either of these purposes.
Ridership studies never demonstrated that a 600-foot consist of R-68s was required to haul passengers around JFK from one terminal to another. Not only would an empty train be a waste of equipment, did you ever stop to think of the extra infrastructure that would be required to handle the oversized, empty trains? Longer than necessary platforms would be required for starters, and you're the one complaining about a waste of money. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Moreover, the rolling stock used for AirTrain should address the needs of the system. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: I would like nothing more than to ride around the AirTrain ROW looking out the railfan window of an R-32. But is the R-32 (or any other subway car in the fleet) the best rolling stock to address the needs of AirTrain? When you think about it, the answer is no.
Every aspect of a subway car is designed for the needs of rapid transit. Subway cars carry large volumes of people quickly over medium distances. People who typically use rapid transit are carrying few items. Storage space and amenities have been traded off for capacity and ease of entrance/egress. The typical AirTrain customer circulating within the airport will certainly have luggage. Where should she put it, on the seats? Are the doors of current subway cars wide enough? Will the AirTrain cars see the same crush loads of subway cars? If they don't, could more architectural features be added for a more aesthetically pleasing ride? Could the AirTrain cars be made less resistant to vandalism?
Why should the Port Authority have to use subway cars? You wouldn't ask the MTA to use AirTrain cars?
"...they're building this shitty little air train that goes where? jamacia? who the hell wants to go to jamacia (other than people from LI, who'll just drive anyways?). "
The AirTrain goes to the subway and the LIRR. That sounds like somewhere to me. If you wanted to take a one-seat ride on the subway, you would still have to traverse more or less the same ROW. Yes, you would have to transfer, and there's been argument in the past for a one-seat ride.
But if you stop to think about it, a two-seat ride is still necessary. The only difference is when you check your bags. Take the City of Atlanta. It has a direct rapid-transit connection to the airport, which is what you want. You take MARTA right to the front door. But unless you're departing from the first gates (the T gates, if I recall), you still haven't finished your journey. You're inside, but you have a long way to go. You have to go downstairs and board another form of transportation to get to your departing gate. So the difference between taking the subway to JFK and MARTA to Atlanta is as follows:
NYC: Subway -----> Transportation to Terminal -----> Baggage Check
Atlanta: Subway -----> Baggage Check -----> Transportation to Terminal
For the record, I do believe strongly that there should be a free transfer from AirTrain to the subway, or perhaps an extra standard fare if the Port Authority really needs to recover their capital expenditure.
In sum, you have to use the right design for the right needs. Simply because you don't understand the system doesn't mean the design is stupid.
MATT-2AV
By the way,
"Something like 3% of freight comes into NYC via train, while it's around 30 or 40% in other major cities (if I recall my stats correctly)."
NYC is an island, unlike other major cities, if I recall my stats correctly. So don't go stone anybody just yet.
Last time I looked, NYC was two islands, a piece of a third and a bit of mainland.
Regardless, too much freight is entering the city by truck. Sending all rail freight from the south and west to NYC, LI or western CT all the way to Albany and back is a greater waste than building a tunnel.
Well, Matt, you understand as well as anyone that Subtalk is a great place for armchair designers and wannabes to throw rocks at MTA, PA etc. and convince us that if the politicians would only appoint them in place of the current MTA or PA management, then everything would be just hunky-dory.
I liked your post. Good logic.
BTW, Newark AirTrain will be offering airline baggage-check train-side when it opens for service in just a couple of months. AirTrain will offer ticket kiosks; I am waiting to see what the PA does for baggage checks.
A little history -- In 1921 the Port Authority was created principally to consolidate the FREIGHT RAIL LINES and to provide a "comprehensive plan" to get it into and around New York. At that time, almost all freight moved by rail. The trains terminated in Jersey City or Hoboken from the west and in Hunts Point from the east; the freight cars were put on barges (lighters) and sent to Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The freight railroads killed the plan. They didn't want anything to impinge on their little monopolies.
We do need a rail tunnel for freight from New Jersey to Brooklyn -- that would take the trucks out of Staten Island and lower Manhattan.
As a taxpaying New Yorker, I am extremely angered by the fact that this type of freight service into Manhattan was left to crumble for so many years and yet my tax dollars have been spent for so many years to build up freight service in New Jersey. No politician has yet to go after NYers tax dollars to rebuilt the much needed freight service into Manhattan. Why should I pay to help built intermodual stations on the other side of the Hudson that benefits NJ and not NY. Everthing coming into areas east the Hudson has to go through on trucks. Now we keep hearing talk about building a extra tunnel(s) under the Hudson for freight only usage, though this should have been built years ago. I'd like to know who got "paid off" for the mess. I know some freight might start coming into the South Bronx area, but more should go through to the Sunnyside yard in Queens as well.
It's a complicated issue. While poor decision-making undoubtedly played a part, I attribute the decline in east-of-the-Hudson freight rail mainly to changes in ocean commerce and industry mix.
Much of today's intermodal traffic - the familiar doublestack container on flat car (COFC) trains - runs between seaports and transshipment points, the latter being facilities at which the containers are offloaded onto trucks for shipment to their final destinations. One undeniable fact is that ocean commerce in NYC proper has declined considerably, although some remains in Brooklyn. It wasn't all that long ago that Manhattan's Hudson waterfront was almost completely lined with commercial piers. The advent of container shipping starting in the early 1960's spelled doom for the Manhattan piers, as the borough lacked the enormous amounts of landside storage and handling space which container-ship ports require. The ships moved to New Jersey, where space was available.
It would be pointless to load containers bound for NYC destinations onto COFC trains even if tunnel capacity and transshipment facilities existed. Transporting a container ten miles by rail ten miles to, say, the Sunnyside Yards, then offloading it onto a truck to its destination in, say, Maspeth would be extravagant to a ridiculous extent. It's much cheaper simply to truck it from Port Elizabeth or Newark. COFC trains heading from other seaports could, theoretically, be offloaded at Sunnyside or elsewhere, but with readily available transshipment facilities in New Jersey, the short truck hauls aren't costly enough to justify a multi-billion dollar rail tunnel.
Finally, NYC has relatively few remaining industrial users that operate on a large enough scale to have their own freight sidings. There are many reasons for this decline, and once again bad bureaucratic or governmental decisions probably aren't major ones.
I've always though sunnyside would make a great spot for more freight, but it's going back to LIRR for MU storage with the GCT connection...
Remember that one?
When I made it up, I said I read it over on nyc.transit, but didn't remember who to attribute it to.
I did a Google Groups (nee Deja.com, nee DejaNews) search on the matter and discovered it: It was our own Paul Matus. And he didn't say that when he responded to EDT's maiden post!
Here's proof
I don't see how that link PROVES anything. It would never stand up in a court of law.
Remember that one?
SCHOOL BUSSES SUCK!
I've been seeing this message from Netscape more and more frequently while on Subtalk. Is this just another timeout message, or is something else going on?
Am I the only one getting this?
I haven't seen it much, it usually means that Netcape couldn't load the page requested, either due to something on your ISP, the backbone or the server being requested. If all else fails, close Netcape, clear out the cache and reload.
Thank for the suggestion. I'll try it.
>>> Am I the only one getting this? <<<
You are not alone. I too have been getting this message in the past few days, although I had never seen it previously.
Tom
Are you sure it wasn't a message bashing the R-142s? :)
--Mark
I get it, too. I often refresh and hope for the best...
It's another timeout message... a tribute to the popularity of this board (and/or heavy traffic between your ISP and Dave's). I usually find that an immediate reload will bring up the requested page, implying that the issue is with the network rather than Dave's server, unlike the timeout message, which usually (but not always) implies problems on the server end. I've also seen a rise in "connection refused" messages, which definitely implies an overload on the server.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I took a walk along the future route of the HBLR from 18th Street in JC to 15th Street in Hoboken yesterday. A new retaining wall is in place or under construction for most of the route. Also new drainage and grading. No new ballast, ties, or rails though.
Just wait until the Hoboken link is complete. Ridership will soar ! Imagine, riding Light Rail from Hoboken to Bayonne via the old CNJ !
Bill "Newkirk"
At the rate they're going, they might get to Weehauken before they get into Hoboken Terminal. Imagine taking the NY Waterways ferry from mid-town and the HBLR to Bayonne (or SI someday).
Riding an uptown B toady I sat R68 number 27xx probably borrowed from the N train with the rollsign as follows Harlem 145th Street anybody else seen it . It was about 12:30 pm today
I saw it too while taking pics of stillwell with my digial cam. also, on the way to stillwell, a N train was waiting and both ends (1st car and last car show N, but in between show B with n Roll signs. took that pic.
thanks for the response Jorge
I saw one the other day on the D:
Norwood, Bronx
205 St
I saw the circled (W) on the N!
2584-87 has the new signs.
Most of the R-68s have the new signs. Didn't Train Dude say that the whole R-68 fleet was to have them by July 1? That's not so far away anymore...
David
I haven't seen any on the R68As which I doubt really need them. They're nice and big and have most if not all the destinations needed for the flip.
>>I haven't seen any on the R68As which I doubt really need them. They're nice and big and have most if not all the destinations needed for the flip.<<
Almost all trains have all destinations. The route letters are the important thing. Do they have the circle W and Diamond Q? Doubt that, most R-68A's do not have the diamond Q.
What's "nice and big" got to do with any of this?
Matters not that the 68A doesen't have the diamond Q as almost all R-68As wil be on the W.
Peace,
ANDEE
But they don't have the circle W (only the diamond). Now if they were smart and just sent them to Concourse, then they wouldn't have to be touched.
I doubt you've seen the destinations side destination signs of an R68A against on of an R68. I suggest you go check them out.
What's "nice and big" got to do with any of this?
It is easier to read!
What's "nice and big" got to do with any of this?
It is easier to read! Try reading an older sign as the train enters the station at 30 MPH. Good luck!
>>Try reading an older sign as the train enters the station at 30 MPH. Good luck!<<
I do it everyday. It's called the 6th av. local.
Plus, he called the cars nice and big.
I do it everyday. It's called the 6th av. local.
I meant to say 8th av local
Put some common sense into it. What is the thread based entirely on? Don't ALL 75 footers have nearly the same dimensions? HELLO!?
Doubt that, most R-68A's do not have the diamond Q.
Didn't the Q run R-68A's until a few years ago? (They may have been R-68's, but I don't think so, since the B has R-68A's now.) Until they got their current R-40's, every Q was signed as a yellow diamond Q.
R68 Qs were diamond yellows. R68A Qs were circle yellows. There were a few exceptions. But generally, that was it. 1 notable one is the first 8 R68As have only a circle orange Q.
No, the first ten only had diamond yellow Q's, and also R-68 style destination signs. But some of thes have been replaced over the years.
Interesting. So, before the Q got its R-40's, it was running mostly R-68's? Where did they go? And where were the R-68A's running then? The B runs R-68A's.
Before the Q got the R40s, they had R68As. Before the 1995 Manhattan Bridge midday/weekend changes, the Q ran R68s. The B ran R40s up till they went to the Q. The D ran R68As till the Q got them.
Thanks. I don't remember ever seeing a circle-Q on the trains before the Q got its current fleet. Then again, I've never been a terribly regular Q rider and I wasn't in the city much at that time.
Some R68's had circle yellow Q signs (only a handful). The R68A's all have them (and were put to good use during the midday bridge closure of 1995).
Didn't we have this discussion over a month ago. Seems to me the thread veered off to a discussion of the boundaries of Harlem. For the sake of Dave's bandwidth, let me say that most R-68s now have the new signs in them. I don't think it's particularly interesting which ones do and which ones don't. Of course - such information is welcome on "NitPicker-Talk".
Didn't we have this discussion over a month ago. Seems to me the thread veered off to a discussion of the boundaries of Harlem.
It did? Too bad I wasn't paying attention, then I would say how the signs should say Sugar Hill, 145th Street instead of Harlem.
Been there - heard that!!!!!!!
Does anyone have a complete listing of these signs
Here it is
Thank you
Steve
YOU are quite welcome
Peace,
ANDEE
I like the rollsign feature to this done with a scroll mouse. I see for south terminals, Ave X and 86th St. kinda point to the cut back for Stillwell Terminal.
I remember the original R-68 signs had (J) & (M). These are 75ft cars, what was the TA thinking ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Is there any reason for the distinction between trains that terminate in a Borough as opposed to a neighborhood?
As in, why "Bensonhurst - Bay Parkway" but "Brooklyn - 36th Street"?
-Alan Scott
I was waiting along 6 Avenue Monday for a southbound Q Train. And what do I see? A train approaches the station with only headights and light from a long railfan window. As it gets closer, I see it's one of the R40s with the new Q diamond stick-ons. This is smart. Now you don't even get early warning and detection of your train.
You don't need "Early warning and detection of your train". What do you think this is, Train hunting? I can see it now:
Teacher: "Billy remeber, stealth and Identification are the most important things"
Pupil: Why?
Teacher: You must know what train is approaching the station before it's actually in the station.
Pupil: Uhh, why?
Teacher: Because early detection prevents the train from sneaking up on you and then leaving.
Pupil: but won't I see the sign when it's actually in the station?
Teacher: No! That's not important! Early detection is!
Jeez. I think that whether you see the letter while the train is in the tunnel or in the station is irrelevant. What about the R-32's/38's? Just stop the whining.
I don't know. maybe it's just me and r68a... but i remeber when i rode the subways I like d to be able to look down the platform into the tunnel and see what train was coming before it pulled in the station so that if it wasn't the one i was waiting for i could GET OUT OF THE WAY of the people rushing to get on and the people getting on the train!!! makes for little courtesy at your busier stations dduring rush hour.
Hmm, yes. Or perhaps you could just not stand by the platform edge at all and just get on when your train comes, hmm?
I can't believe that he actually complained about that. I can't believe you're defending it. It's not a big deal to not know what train is coming until it's in the station. Hell, ask the old-timers on the board about signs on the front of trains. They didn't have any.
Doesn't that lit up sign help you much more? A flipdot sign on an R32 and R38 was easier to read than what I saw. And why was it that all subway cars within the last 2 decades were ordered with brightly lit signs? I mean, they didn't waste the LED money on the R142 and R142A for nothing.
Yes, the sign is a big help, and yes, I often look down the tracks to see if the approaching train is mine. But I'm not gonna start whining if suddenly I can't tell if the train's an express or a local before it enters the station!
Yes! It can only display red!
Dammit! I knew that was going to be an issue. Well, that'll satisfy diehard Redbird fans, it's red.
With the R32's pathetic bulkhead signs, you can't tell what train it is even when it's IN the station.
The R38 signs are different. They are larger. The dots are bigger. There is also a brighter lamp illuminating it.
wayne
Since the R-38s run on the A and C, the only stretch where you really need to look at the sign is between WTC and Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
>>Since the R-38s run on the A and C<<
Have you forgotten about the E and C sporting R-32's?
Quite true. However, the signs on the R-38s are easier to decipher. FWIW, anyway.
>>>Jeez. I think that whether you see the letter while the train is in the tunnel or in the station is irrelevant. What about the R-32's/38's? Just stop the whining.<<<
Fine man! I get your point. You're free to think what you want and so am I. So don't tell me to be quiet. Don't need whining, MOVE ON TO THE NEXT MESSAGE!
>>Fine man! I get your point. You're free to think what you want and so am I. So don't tell me to be quiet. Don't need whining, MOVE ON TO THE NEXT MESSAGE!<<
If you got the point, there was no reason to reply, now was there. And you don't get it: The point is don't complain about every stupid little thing that the Manhattan Bridge flip is causing. Especially when other riders do it everyday!
And another thing - if you can see the elongated railfan window in that station setting, you know two things right away:
a) it's a Slant
b) if it's a Slant, then it must be a "Q".
wayne
Do Streetcar/Tram lines ever have crossovers for possible 261 running? Has anyone ever seen such a crossover?
"261 running"?
Rule 261 bi-directional running.
[Rule 261 bi-directional running.]
What does that mean?
Arti
I think I know what you mean: a set of switches in a streetcar network that allows a streetcar to change tracks in order to run the wrong way? If so, yes I've seen crossovers that enable that.
-Robert King
To try to explain "261" that was the number of a "big railroad" or as some would say "real RR" rule that allowed bi-directional running; if I remember the Consolidated Code we used in Montana had all different numbers, new, modern, and more and more rules.
I'd think thru CTC or interlocking territory that rule would be superfluous as you just run on signal indication as on subways, els. And I'd expect in this day of modern systems that streetcars/trams, light rail whatever would be signal/tower/CTC controlled for wrong-rail or bi-directional use of tracks.
No, streetcars don't do 261 running, because 261 is a NORAC rule,
and the entire railway world is NOT governed by that document!
Street railways were almost exclusively single track with passing
sidings or double track with crossovers. The purpose of the
crossover is to allow a car to short-turn. In emergencies this
could be used to run around a blockage on the other track.
I think that 261 is also a GCOR Rule. Basically 261 is easier to type than bi-directional operation. I have never really noticed crossovers on Philly area trolly lines. I didn't know if they were ever used do to running on the wrong side of the St.
Philly trolleys on the 34 route were running on the wrong side of the street last summer when the tracks were being replaced on Baltimore avenue. On a stretch of several blocks one track was replaced at a time, and the line used the other track only, meaning that in one direction the trolleys had to crossover and use the track on the other side of the street.
Mark
Here is a picture of a crossover on McKinney Avenue, Dallas. Since MATA's trolleys run in-street, they don't ever contra-flow. They use this crossover only if they need to short turn a car back to the barn after is has gone around the Hall/Cole loop. McKinney Avenue recently had construction that closed one track at a time, but the track that remained open was roped off so it was reserved for two-way movement of the trolleys.
Actually, there is one place where MATA runs trolleys regularly against street traffic, but it has nothing to do with a crossover. When a trolley comes off the line to the barn, it has to run a half block from McKinney Plaza to Bowen against traffic. So far, all the drivers facing the wrong-way tolleys have figured out the trolleys are bigger and yield.
This is not a very common thing on older streetcar lines, but modern ones have them. When I was riding on the 42L light rail in Pittsburgh, one track on the street-running section was out of service, so the trains were running the wrong way on the remaining track, using crossovers which were also in the street. The movement was most likely coordinated from Central Control, since that part of the line is unsignalled.
HBLR has cross-overs at some points, but I don't recall any in the street-running part.
Here's a scan of the MTA's handout about the new service. Let me know if the link doesn't work. Angelfire is VERY picky.
New Service
I heard that a New Jersey Transit train derailed in Garfield, NJ. No one was hurt, but there is service suspended on the Bergen Line, and they're concerned because the train's batteries are leaking acid. I HAAAAAAAATTTTEEEE when trains derail. :-(
The news has alredy spreaded.
The Star-Ledger has a story.
Who pays for clean up ? Is it NJT or Metro North damage, law suites, replacement of cars??
The train was a Metro North Commuter rail train - didn't look to be badly damaged at all; carbodies were intact, no dents or anything; just the undercarriages and tracks were tore up.
wayne
That is true But which system is going to pay the man? There will be heavy claims. I wonder who is libel? NJY or Metro North?
Probably the trucker who damaged the tracks. I hope his insurance is paid up. As for which railroad is stuck if the trucker can't pay, I would be very surprised if the contract between the two RRs doesn't cover that little point.
Good info. thanks for your post. After filling out many-many accident reports at WMATA. My neck, my back. my feet.95% while working as a station mgr.Concering slips on platform. Esc. incidents which is always #1. Getting slamed by train doors (of course the train is 2 - 3 miles up the road when the pass. shows up at the kiosk pissed. Thought this incident a lot different ..Two systems NJT & MTA
An article by Daniel Sforza in Friday's Bergen Record states that a dumpster truck may have hit the track, misaligning it and causing the derailment.
Transit officials said they ruled out heat-caused track buckling.
The truck driver knew he backed into the ballast, but didn't realize that he hit the rail. The train engineer saw the kinked rail and went BIE, reducing speed from 60 to 35 mph by the time the derailment occurred.
Story by Nicole Gaudiano in Saturday's Bergen Record.
Kudos to the engineer. His quick action prevented more serious injuries.
Thanks to Trevor for the new logos. The old ones were nice but the new ones look similar and add a sense of unity to the two talks. So, maybe the old subtalk logo will return some day for those who miss it!
-Dave
Hey! Groovy graphic up there!
:-) Andrew
Looking GOOD!
Great job Trevor, I guess it was time to retire the old R-62 graphic. Perhaps a future update when the R-143s enter regular service ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The new graphics looks good! The old SubTalk logo was big, and somewhat plain. The new graphics look good on both boards, and definitely give a sense of unity, as Dave said. Good job Trevor!
the picture of the R-142 makes this forum seem to look like the ""R-142 Subtalk forum"" & this is how it goes folks when you are
the BOSS ( the webmaster ) @ you call all the shots !! However I do wish different logos would appear ( pictures of rail transit cars )
of all different kinds and types ""rail transit systems worldwide"" not just what seems to be a R-142 only club or worship of this new
irt subway car like it is some new religion or GOD or something like that !! arent there other beautiful rail transit cars besides the R-142 ??
Would it not be nice to see different subway, & rail transit vehicles displayed as the logos of Subtalk besides ONLY the R-142 !!!
How about some other transit vehicles being displayed each week ( not just new york city ) & not just... ""new junkers"" ???...
( gasp ) !!!
arent there other beautiful rail transit cars besides the R-142 ??
Yes there are. We had the R-62 for the old logo. R-62 and R-142, those are the only beautiful IRT cars still in service.
opinions are like ""________________"" I wont say it here this is a family friendly board !! there are other subway & rail transit
transportation vehicles that looked much better than the R-142 !! & in other cities besides nyc !!!
We are all aware of the old cartoon verson of the R-62 which looks better than a R-142 any day !!! he he he he he !!! LOL !!!
>>there are other subway & rail transit
transportation vehicles that looked much better than the R-142 !! & in other cities besides nyc !!!<<
Call me crazy, but I thought the name of this site was: nycsubway.org. I don't think that putting up a picture of a subway car from Atlanta would have been a good idea.
>>We are all aware of the old cartoon verson of the R-62 which looks better than a R-142 any day<<
Well, at least you didn't say that a dying old car with corrosion on it's sides was better looking than the R-142.
Well, I think an Atlanta subway car would be cool. The site may be nycsubway.org, but there are sections for dozens of systems around the world.
The new logos are phizzat, by the way. A refreshing change.
It really would be fine to have the Atlanta MARTA subway / transit vehicles shown as the SUBTALK LOGO and well as other
( s ) " rail transit systems worldwide " However it seems the new logo seems to suggest that Subtalk is exclusively the R-142 club !!
Phizzat !!!.............LOL !!!
No not Phizzat......Stizzzupid! Open your minds to other things besides redbirds and R-21 subway cars.
Maybe ya'll views on things would be more interesting over child-like!
And behind this I don't wanna here no negative comments because if you can accept fussing about grammar, spelling and other B.S., As adults, you should be able to read this and grin & bear it!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Maybe it's time to put this silly post to bed. It's only a logo, not the end of the world. Trevor, I commend you for doing something artistic that Dave P. obviously liked.
Now, will somebody step up to the plate and have the coconuts to change the subject !!
Think......there must be something intelligent to talk about.
Bill "Newkirk"
I GOT THE NUGGETS TO DO IT!
CHANGE!
ANY BODY SEEN THAT DAMN R-143, That train is so elusive, we may have to put in on the "America's Most Wanted" show to have them hunt that thing down!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Was this post directed to me as well? If so, my intent was not to complain about the new logo. I even said in my post that it was a refreshing change, which is a good thing.
No No No Not you Rob, that damn Saalam and the other closed minded jackasses!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
now thats not very nice ! I did not call you any foul & nasty names. I have too much RESPECT for you to do such a low low savage thing like that about you ! I also think you have a very nice website too !!
Well listen...
First off, you weren't too nice about the logo comments. Thank you for being a fan, HOWEVER, closed minds are a big problem for me, especially when it's a subject that people can't really comment on. Like you for example, you "hate" the R-142s but you live in LA. I live here and ride these cars on a bi-daily basis. I have no problems with them, they run smooth and fast and I love them, not that you are not entitled to your own opinion, but your basis for the opinion is null and void because you don't deal with the cars like me or anyone else who lives in NY do. Your basis is becuase they are replacing the Redbirds, which is not really cool.
Pardon my name calling, BUT CLOSED MINDS PISS ME OFF!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Pardon my name calling, BUT CLOSED MINDS PISS ME OFF!
I am sorry sir if you feel that way however just because i live on the west coast , this does not mean i do not remember when when
I lived in new york city during my early years and remember the great rolling classics ( & man they were built right too ) !!!
( Well listen etc.............First off, you weren't too nice about the logo comments........??
Again I was concerned about what seemed to me to be what used to be a SUBTALK forum being changed into a R-142s forum !!
I think a nice set of low vs & high vs & other electric railcars of the world not just past but present as well would have been better!
As for the LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE ( as we have correctly named it out here etc ) ............
The R-142s rolling stock sounds just like the pile of junks i heard at the 149th street station last fall where the #2 & #5 run ........UGH !!
I am sorry but to me they looked so dammed ugly sounded ugly looked so ""out of place"" Hell when the R 33-36 WF #7 cars first
ran on the #7 I saw them brother and man THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY A BEAUTIFUL SIGHT TO SEE !!!!!!!!
Instead of getting angry and upset with me brother ( & Your website is one of the best I have ever seen by the way ) !!!!
Let us disgree but & my point is that I just dont see quality in a lot of things made these days like back in he past, the good old days.
What you now call "the redbirds" now were absolutely a BEAUTIFUL SIGHT TO SEE when they were new !!!!!
Not like the r-142s which looked so MARTA-BART-BALTIMORE-WASH-D.C.-LOS ANGELES-MTA-MIAMI- like !!!
& to me they sounded like a piece of crap about to be breakin on down !! ( smile, my opinion ) Who is closed minded now my brother ??
Yo guy ... if you saw the shape those poor things are in today, you'd understand why they have to go every bit as much as my faves, the R1/9's were in their last days on the road. Great rides in their time but alas, even old railcars get all used up. They really do look horrible - a buddy of mine sent me some photos of the undersides, inside the door panels and especially inside the cabs, underfloors and roof joints. After all these years, the only thing still holding them together is the PAINT ... no joke.
While it's true the newer cars don't have the same old charm, there ain't no St Louis Car Company, ACF or Pullman any longer ... no offense intended but the 'birds are shot ... the R10's were in better shape when they met the scrapper, and there were recently some shots of those posted here in subtalk all tagged up ... you could see the rust on those eating through fresh spray paint. :)
All things must end some day and go to the great car barn in the sky. Unfortunately, it's time ...
you make my point ! thats why I will be there this fall shooting & re-shooting the redbirds all i can get the last of the great era
of the irt R-12-36wf series cars that were some of the greatest subway cars ever ! to me they are like the last of the last!
Great museum pieces of history of when quality & simple construction & not to mention how long they endured even at the end !
The old saying " THEY DONT MAKE EM LIKE THEY USED TO " will come true unfortunately with the great car barn in
the sky giving way to some all styrofoam over high tech UGLY but new junk ........ ( sigh ) .... Oh well i will still have them on video !! & digital stills...
& catch as many of them on video as i can within a 2 week period download teh videos to DVD & preserve them forever !!!
Yo, bro ... I *do* understand about how you feel here ... I was lucky enough to say goodbye to my old childhood favorites by taking the civil service test, school car, conductor school, the works and at the age of 19, everyone wondering what my MALFUNCTION was actually WANTING to work the R1/9's and making a pain in the ARSE of myself to get assigned to them when the new cars were coming on the property.
I *knew* they were going byebye and the only thing that made me WANT to take the test (they actually ADVERTISED for conductors on the roofline adverts at the time in 1969/70 - "Conductors can make $350 a week!" [and that was at the time that such wages were fat city) and I made the cut after the test and the LONG wait (almost a year until I got "appointed") ... I was truly gung-ho knowing that my babies' days were numbered ... SCROO the R-32's, I want (finger pointing) *THOSE!* (what? Are you F'ing CRAZY?) ... loved 'em and the old timers about to retire took me right under their wing and showed me how to love 'em just right. Kcchhhhssss! ...
But yeah, grab 'em while you can before the paint falls off and they collapse onto the roadbed ... they're all pretty damned close to that.
yes i see your point !! thats why i will shot every redbird i can this fall when i visit my home sweet home nyc !! ( thanks ) !!
yes i see your point !! thats why i will shot every redbird i can this fall when i visit my home sweet home nyc !! ( thanks ) !!
yes i see your point !! thats why i will shot every redbird i can this fall when i visit my home sweet home nyc !!
its the R-142 god worshippers who make me sick !!!! ( thanks ).....
ok again i do not disagree with you but besides "just being new" what is so dammed great about the R-142s ??
I'll tell what's great.....
See I love the R-142As (The 6 Line cars) over the R-142 (2 Line Cars).
The R-142A sounds like the starship Enterprise, which I Love! I LOVE IT! The R-142As take off like rockets, they growl like a bear when they go fast, the are stainless steel which will last longer than the redbirds, the ride is comfortable....I LOVE NEW TECHNOLOGY.
THAT IS ME, and that what makes me a "special" fan of transit becuase I look towards the future and not dwell on the past!
Regards,
T.Lo
well BRO. I will have to find a motorman who will let me shoot a video from inside his motormans cab !! I could at least do that
with any redbird with no problem whatsoever from the railfan window ! ( hope that makes you happy ) ..................( smile )
"I will have to find a motorman who will let me shoot a video from inside his motormans cab"
I bet if you went to the MTA and paid for a permit they would let you. Don't you have to do that if you use a tripod anyway.
they look the other way if you bring on a tripod as for shooting inside a motormans cab it is a it is at the will of the motorman/motorwoman
& operator !! they call the shots here !!some operators on the A train with a r-38 32 welcomed me some refused to let me borad the train !!!
thanks !!
R-32s and 38s don't have transverse cabs, you friigin idiot!
THAT IS ME, and that what makes me a "special" fan of transit becuase I look towards the future and not dwell on the past!
You're my kind of transit fan! I love the R-142s and R-142As.
Isn't it interesting that sometimes the same people who say they love the sounds of the old cars complain about the motors on the R-142A?
Isn't it interesting that sometimes the same people who say they love the sounds of the old cars complain about the motors on the
R-142s? & the comment of "I look foward to the future of OVER HIGH TECH breakdowns shutdows and outright failures"
@ it is because they sound SICK as hell !!! Question have you ever heard the sounds of the pre world war 2 rolling stocks, subways & trolleys ??
hmmmmmm.. or should i say { oink } !!!
Isn't it interesting that sometimes the same people who say they love the sounds of the old cars complain about the motors on the
R-142s? & the comment of "I look foward to the future of OVER HIGH TECH breakdowns shutdows and outright failures"
@ it is because they sound SICK as hell !!! Question have you ever heard the sounds of the pre world war 2 rolling stocks, subways & trolleys ??
us old timers have class ! i do not suppose you even have the hint of a chance you could understand that but we do !! LOL !!!
hmmmmmm.. or should i say { oink } !!!
Um, I'm sure as hell not! See you could've easily come across the way you just did instead the way you previously did!
You just proved my point!!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
no sir ! ... i dont think so but however if you insist you can have it your way ! ( have fun & enjoy ) !!!
you are entitled to your opinion ...................wrong of cource !!!..............( thank you )
Hmmmmmm, How dare you say the my opinion is wrong. I was gonna let this one go but its too damn hard.......
WHAT KINDA INTELLIGENCE DO YOU HAVE! OPINIONS ARE NEVER WRONG, THEY ARE OPINIONS!!!!!!! AND COURCE IS SPELLED COURSE!!!!!!!!!!!
I blast you because of your closed mindedness, and judging by your name, I'm guessing your are a Muslim, and from what I can see, a sad case for one. 99.9% of hte Muslims I know are very open minded, you must be the got-damn black sheep of the crew! Reply if you want, But I wouldn't.....From one brother to another!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
You didn't complain when there was just the R-62 logo. You just have an irrational hatred of the R-142, a car MANY times more beautiful than those horribly ugly redbeasts.
I like the new logo! True, the old cars had great sounds and smells, but we got to keep up with the times, no matter what we think of the R-142's. They'll get them straight, and we'll enjoy them for many years!
Chuck Greene
salaam said----
>>>...arent there other beautiful rail transit cars besides the R-142 ?? ...<<<
Don't send that post to the archives! No one would believe it!
--Mark
hehehe@..... LOL......@ hehehe !!!!!!!!@@@@@@@@@@???????????......
Peace,
ANDEE
wrong dinosaur breath !! I know the R-142s are the UGLIEST THINGS I have ever seen !! & they sound UGLY too !!!
@ he he he he LOL !!!
I'd like to hear the sound of Bombardier (adtranz)traction system and the sound of a Alstom traction system.
?? mr. mark feinman who told you that ??
@ that is what i said ( my opinion ) ...
That's true, you did not admits the R-142 are ugly.
so ?? _______________________________...............??.............! now fill in the blank please !!
Subtalk Logo Archives!
I'm going to London next friday. Hopefully I won't cancel it like my planned trip to NYC last month. Anyway, I'm going arrive Saturday morning at Gatwick Airport, and I'm going to spend all day in London. Sunday, I'm going to take a train to Salsbury and go see the Cathedral and Stonehenge. I won't be doing any hardcore exploring of the Tube, but I will be using it to get around. I plan on going to Waterloo, Buckingham Palace, Tralagfar (however that's spelled), Picadilly, and the other touristy places. Can anyone tell me of any interesting things I should look out for in the tube? What is the original running segment, so I can be sure to ride it? How's the train to Salsbury?
The original London Underground is what is now the Hammersmith Line from Paddington east toward Moorgate. The original tube line is the Central Line from aboout White City to Liverpool Street. The newest line is the Jubilee south of Green Park. I highly recommend visiting the London Transport Museum, it is located near Covent Garden. It can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the history of the tube, and even has some examples of old rolling stock.
What remains of the original tube is the section from Borough to Stockwell on the Northern Line City branch (opened 1890).
Waterloo & City opened 1898. Central London Railway opened in 1900.
And the original surface UndergrounD line is from Paddington
(Hammersmith & City line) to Farringdon (1863). Extension to Moorgate
was done in 1865.
Hey Rob, it's been almost twenty years since I've been there (1982) but I remember the Underground as a blast. Look for the spiral staircase that connects two lines. Like the trains it's narrow and spooky as hell.
E_DOG
There's spiral staircases at several stations but the only one I can think of used in a transfer is at Old Street, between the Northern Line and the BR line which I think is called "Northern City Line" but I can't quite recall at this hour...
"Great Northern & City Line".
I don't know if it's still called like that, though.
It's confusing with the "Northern Line City branch"
There is definitely a spiral staircase interchange between Finsbury Park Piccadilly Line and The WAGN suburban service going north. Very dismal. There is also a spiral stair to get to Central Line platforms at Bank from the Northern Line, less nasty. I guess that both of these used to be lift shafts.
Fisnbury Park to Moorgate used to be the Northern City Line because Northern Line trains were going to be sent down there. It was transferred to BR, and the suburban service was then known as the Great Northern Electrics. Don't think that the underground section really has a name now in post privatisation times. It has disappeared from the Underground map and now only has a Monday to Friday daytime service. Quite an expensive failure.
Oh yes, Finsbury Park, that's right. I had the right line wrong station. :)
-Dave
The spiral staircase at Covent Garden has 192 steps. I went down it once, thought I'd never get to the bottom (and it made me dizzy).
Hey, it's better than paying for a gym.
The Piccadilly line is littered with ’em. The lifts (elevators) at Russell Square were regularly out of order when I was a student living in Connaught Square. I don’t remember how many stairs it was to the top, but it was quite a few!
John
If you have half an hour at Waterloo, try a round trip on the Waterloo & City Line: totally unique, even if it now does run LT designed trains.
Last time I looked, Salisbury has a fast train at least every hour from Waterloo, many of these continue to Exeter. They are quite cramped diesel multiple units, and the service can be unreliable. Have not been to Stonehenge for a while, but I have read that it can be very difficult to get to: It is a long way from anywhere and public transport is not good.
Westminster is a good station for Buckingham Palace, construction of the Jubilee Line was difficult here, but the result is a spacious cavern.
If you don't want to go too far afield, the following Central London stations have interesting, or attractively refurbished buildings:
Russell Square (relatively unspoilt Yerkes station)
Chancery Lane (one platform over the other rather than on the same level)
Gloucester Road (nice refurbishment of old buildings)
Off the beaten track, but within easy reach of the tourist parts:
Farringdon (busy suburban line service adjacent to Underground platforms)
Aldgate East (big spacious station, very much LT 1950s style)
The biggest variety of trains visible from one place in one central Underground station is probably Farringdon, where two types of surface stock run (A60/62, C69/77) [The only station with all three types is Whitechapel, but not from one vantage point.] plus BR dual voltage suburban trains, the changover from overhead to third rail is while the train is in the platform. [The only station with all three types is Whitechapel, but not from one vantage point.]
Oh yes, if you do go to Covent Garden at a busy time (i.e. Saturday) get off at Liecester Square and walk. It is quite pleasant here at the moment (26 centigrade at a guess) but that Covent Garden is cramped, crowded and unpleasant at this time of year.
Hope this helps, if you want any other information, let me know. For suburban and national rail times, try
http://www.railtrack.co.uk/
But be very careful about ticket availability outside of London, especially when travelling before 9:00 and on Fridays/Saturdays.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
Sorry,
Been to London yesterday, Russell Square is being refurbished so scrub that. Lambeth North may be worth a try, but I can't guarantee that it has not been 'improved' likewise.
Also forgot:
"Mind the Gap" announcements are at the curved plaforms at Waterloo (Bakerloo Line) and Bank (Central Line).
Also, when at Oxford Circus, stand on the North East corner of the road junction of Oxford Street/Regent Street and face south. The deep red/brown tiled building is the original Bakerloo Line ticket hall building (now just an entrance, as the ticket hall was moved underground years ago). The sandstone building immediately to its left is the original Central London Line ticket hall.
Interior of Piccadilly Circus ticket hall is a 'Listed Structure' and there is an old-style 'Underground' sign over the entrance to Leicester Square tube on the East side of Charing Cross Road.
Max
"Mind the Gap" announcements are at the curved plaforms at Waterloo (Bakerloo Line) and Bank (Central Line).
What about Embankment (Circle/District)? I distinctly remember the droning "minduh the gap" announcement and I haven't been in London in over ten years.
Yes, I think that you are correct. I only mentioned the ones that I was sure of. There are probably others too. They seem to have proliferated in the last five years.
Don't forget Victoria on the Circle and "Dicky" lines.
One day is a hell of a short time to spend in London, but I'd say the Jubilee Line extension between Westminster and Canary Wharf is a must-see.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Times reported Wednesday that the LIRR will send all 46 EMD/Super Steel 46 DE30-ACs and DM30-ACs back to a contractor currently being sought by EMD to have the skids (cracked frames) replaced. They will be sent out in pairs, so as to avoid service disruption.
Those engines are garbage, period. Instead of years of agrivation lets not throw anymore money away and get Genesis loco's. Or electrify the entire RR.
I would electrify the entire LIRR system. Since I'm in Metro-Horth territory I would also electrify the upper Hudson Line.
BMTJeff
It does seem Metro North has a much higher percentage of electrification than LIRR. I'm suprised how far into the rural areas electrification goes. Less NIMBY's I guess. Long Island invented NIMBY'ism. :-0
Much of the electrification was done before Metro North was even born. Going foward, the management of the two railroads is very different from what I was told by an MN employee. The LIRR is mostly people that worked for state agencies before, while MN has been people that worked to private companies, so MN tend to be more customer oriented than LIRR ever will be. Alot of how LIRR did there electrification had to do with more of a need basis. Back in the day, for example, the Oyster Bay line went through large estate areas. Most residents had no need of the railroad, so there was no real push for electrification. The Port Washington branch was a different story as communities along the line grew as bedroom communities. So the need was there for efficient commuting. As for LI being the inventor of "NIMBY'ism," I would say not so since it is any in this country where people feel threaten by something that will change their environment, like cell phone towers.
Lack of electrification to Port Jeff and the unique design of the DE/DM//bi-tanic/bi-level fiasco came from a LIRR management desire to behave like a Reagan-era defense contractor, not from NIMBYism. That project had been promised to residents and realtors on that branch since the end of WW-II. It was always thought they would get it before Ronkonkoma, which is why Huntington was done by 1970 as opposed to Farmingdale. Ronkonokoma electrification was the ONLY major project the LIRR did that they didn't screw up, and they could have repeated that success. They have not accomplished much of anything since, except for new, white elephant train yards in Oyster Bay, Speonk, and the Herricks road grade elimination. There was once budget to get 3rd rail to Smithtown, and the Hillside shop was designed for an EMU fleet larger than exists today. The LIRR considered selling their excess maintenance cpacity to other carriers to do their maintenance, but no one in NYCTA, MN, or NJT would entrust their heavy repairs to those bozos.
Metro-North electrification: Remeber you are dealing with two separate railroads - the New York Central and the New Haven.
When New York City outlawed steam engines, the New York Central, which controlled the Grand Central trackage, went with third rail. On the Hudson division, they extended the third rail to Croton-Harmon. Reason -- that was where the train yard was where steam engines were serviced. On the Harlem division, the change over point was North White Plains for the same reason.
The New Haven went with overhead lines. Connecticut does not allow third rail. Whether that was in effect when the electrification was done, I know not.
The original end of the electric lines was Stamford, again for the same reason (the yard was there). I think they also ran the New Canaan electric lines at that time. Electrification was then extended several years later to New Haven (another yard) and Danbury (again another yard). (Danbury electric lines were pulled out in the '50s.)
Is the catenary that is past South Norwalk Station going north and into the Danbury branch still active? If so, how far up the branch is it still electrified?
I don't believe that any portion of the Danbury branch is electrified. They are considering electrifying the Danbury branch once again however.
BMTJeff
In the early 70's, they pulled all of the wires between South Norwalk and Danbury down; in the early 90's many of the supports went as well.
Re-electrification is being pushed. In addition, there is a move to electrify the Amtrak line from New Haven to Springfield, to expand commuter service there.
I think that Long Island helped to kill the plan for the Rye to Oyster Bay Bridge many years ago because people didn't want the traffic in their communities. Westchester County also played a role in killing of the bridge proposal at the time.
BMTJeff
Westchester County also played a role in killing of the bridge proposal at the time.
Not as much. It was a Connecticut senator who helped pass legislation that created a wildlife refuge where the Nassau landing would have been. In Westchester, the highways are already there, there wouldn't have been as much construction and the areas are not as "rural" as the Nassau side is. The Nassau side, in addition to significant highway construction, suffers from people exactly like the ones that Qtraindash7 describes (and those are the same people).
I can safely assume he is referring to the NIMBY's. Westchester County does have its far share of those too. I'm also aware that there would have been MUCH more construction on the Nassau County side of the bridge than on the Westchester County side.
BMTJeff
John, Do youever have a positive comment? Lately your comments fall into two catagories. They are either negative or they are wrong. If I may impart some friendly advice - spend less time working on the problems of the RR and more time working on the problems of John.
I'm surprised that EMD would built such shoddy equipment for a heavy - duty railroad. But then again, they got the specs from the MTA - LIRR, one of the most trouble - prone agencies in the country.
Mind you, this is coming from a guy who thinks that GE's locos are far more durable (both strucurally and engine - wise) than what GM's rail divison churns out.
GE turned out some excellent locomotives in the past, and then some lemons. EMD had its share of excellent products, now it too has a lemon. When the lemons are caught,send them back so that they get them corrected, and make them get a move on. The R-44 was a real lemon when it first went into service, now after the rebuild at 207th St, they seem to be reasonable. Same for the R-46 after the rebuild at Hormel, NY. By the way, how high above the rail does a GE Genesis class locomotive measure? I looked through my Diesel Spotter's Guide and could not find out anything. What are the height clearances for the Pennsylvania Station Tunnels anyway?
The clearances in Penn are all right for Geneses, which Amtrak uses on the Empire Corridor. They run from Penn to Sunnyside through the same tunnels and use third rail when underground.
Well bring on those Amtrak F-40s !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Rumor has it that the F-40's, if they come, are to be used for work trains, not for passenger service.
-- Kirk
I was told that the GP38-2's that were used on the LIRR could not get into Penn Station. The Genesis class locomotives look larger, and they get through, and the E-60 C's are no little switch cabs either. Just how do these three locomotives measure up in height?
im taking the car inspector test soon..any idea as to how long a wait there is till they hire?
thanx
fred
Anywhere from 6 Mouths to 4 Years it all depends on how many take the test and how many pass and your score.
Anywhere from 6 Mouths to 4 Years it all depends on how many take the test and how many pass and your score.
I'm no expert in Civil Service law and 1985 was the last time I took a Civil Service test but that sounds like some mis-information to me.
First of all - you have to wait until the test answers are challanged and the list is finally certified. That can take a year or more.
Second - the list has a life of 2-5 years.
Third - it depends on where you place on the list.
Forth - With the 1 n 3 rule, you can be passed over for no reason at all.
Fifth - The list can be cancelled after 2 years and another test given - negating your test.
Sixth - You could also be called provisionally before the list is certified. But if you didn't score high enough, you could be fired once the list is certified.
im taking the car inspector test soon..any idea as to how long a wait there is till they hire?
thanx
fred
You should concentrate on PASSING the test first, THEN worry about how long the wait is.
Peace,
ANDEE
The position of Car Inspector is a Civil Service title. The length of the wait for appointment is determined by your list number and is directly proportional to your score + veterans credits (if you have any). However, if you fail the test - you have nothing to worry about.
im actually the dude with the handle ckder. i just decided to change my handle for convenience reasons. but anyways, i dont know if should be disappointed or irked at metro and the wmata, but they still havent introduced those new cars that they promised to introduce at the beginning of the year. does anyone have any answers as to why this is or when they could possibly hit the rails? as an avid bus and railspotter, im yearning for some fresh material. thanks for reading this
I don't think we will be seeing these things for some time now... I hope you like the old 70s WMATA scheme b/c its staying a little longer.
R40 4390 Q train:
34 st to church ave was difficult to get to the railfan window. When everyone got off on Church Ave(except a few people) Finally,I got the railfan window. At Kings hwy we almost hit a pigon and the TO din't honk his horn, but the bird few away. we waited for 2mins at Kings hwy. all track are cleared(green lights all the way). We started moving. a few more bird flew by close to the train, thank god they didn't hit the window. I took some videos with my intel digital cam going to brighton beach station( 4 clips each). I check the vids and it cam out pretty good.
I saw a commercial on the news just now about some sort of NJT train derailment. I'm not sure what happened. As soon as I get more details I'll give them to everybody.
This was reported by Tony Mirabella in message 229980.
There's additional info in a thread on Yahoo NJ railfan forum.
The 'Nets pretty much told all during the
5 0'clock newscast...
And why has some Modern, non-painted, non-railfan window having, non-passing through from nose to tail letting, conductor eliminating, bug prone, THING replaced it.
Uh, thanks for your opinion.
Well you did a very nice job with the border and the lettering. Although if you added zip lines you could also regain that sence of speed* the last one entailed.
*Unless the change was the result of some false advertising suit.
Something about this board's fast. I start looking at posts at 6, and before you even finish looking through the third thread it's already 7!
Nice changeover, you need Graffiti, contact ME or Subway ART, whenever I look at that book "there is no emoticon to express what I am feeling.
Keep up the good work Dave!
May you be encrusted with the barnacles of a thousand redbirds :-)
Not that I didn't like the old logo (I did), but it IS Dave's sandbox...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your opinions are like armpits. We all have them, but yours stink more.
Your opinions are like armpits. We all have them, but yours stink more.
Is that why you cancelled your 28 hour subway marathon?
The logo isn't different. It's just the same as it always was. Perhaps you're hallucinating.
Dan
It's rare you get a railfan window at the front and back of an R62 and R62A. Pretty much the same config except for a FEW R62A singles on the 3 Line. Hey, the R142A can definately kick and R62's ass in speed. Go to 14 Street-Union Square, wait for an R62 on the 4 Line and let it leave. Wait for the R142A to start moving shortly before alomost 1/2 the R62 is out. That R142A will catch up very fast.
>>Pretty much the same config except for a FEW R62A singles on the 3 Line.<<
Most of the 3 line's cars are singles.
The only disappointing thing I think is seeing that the r142 in the photo doesn't have a nice big fat colored route number in the left windowlike the r62's and 68's
Aside, www.nycsubway.org IS Pirmann's Sandbox and
Pirmann will do with it just as PIRMANN pleases!!
With all the politically incorrect threads appearing
herein these days one should be mighty thankful we
still have this forum called "SubTALK".
Thanks to Trevor Logan for his repeated contributions
to our little train haven online!!
I, personally was staring at the logo waiting for it
to change... much like the IRT/BMT/IND Divisional
logo on the mainpage... but that change hadn't come.
We can only wonder what the outcome would have been
had there been a vote to decide which unit would be
the representory model for the new logos.
Ya can't have everything...
Thanks, Trevor!!
Thanks, Dave!!
Sorry, but I *REALLY LIKE* the new SubTalk logo.
--Mark
I think it's great too, no apology needed, IMO
Peace,
ANDEE
Like Anon_e_mouse and others, it's still Dave's Playhouse, and we all are just his guests.
You are also one of three folks inhabiting my Killfile. Sadaam ain't one of them. It figgers you don't like the new Subtalk logo. Once in a GREAT while you actually post something of value. Rarely, but it does happen. This thread ain't one of them.
>>You are also one of three folks inhabiting my Killfile....<<
Ugh. Killfile. first off, how'd you get in the thread if he's on your killfile? I don't know how killfile works. (I never use it)
Second: why put anybody on killfile? Seems that it would be best if you just ignored the person's posts, reading only the posts that appeared to be of value.
I'm sure that i'm on at least one person's killfile (probably half of everybody would be a closer estimation), but nobody is on mine. Even the people who post nothing of real value (I won't say anybody's name, some might say me) on occasion make me laugh.
P.S.- since you're naming people on your killfile; did I make the cut?
P.S.- since you're naming people on your killfile; did I make the cut?
If you're on his killfile, he didn't see your question.
>>If you're on his killfile, he didn't see your question<<
But, he saw Jersey Mike's post, didn't he? Now i'm thoroughly confused. Please explain killfile, someone.
The killfile eliminates that poster's messages from showing up in the index listing. Dan became aware of JM's message because someone else replied to it.
Me, I don't use the killfile... I just ignore those whose posts I don't care to read (or I read them anyway, just in case my blood pressure isn't high enough).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can try it out.
Killfile that bozo "American Pig" and see what happens. He posts often enough.
INTERESTING FACT: Once you have somebody in your killfile, you can't completely get rid of it, you need to keep at least one person, that's why I have "nobody" in my killfile (or at least did).
I like "American Pigs" posts never pass one. Some are strange to us outter towners ( I'am in Va.) however he is always entertaining. I also like your posts, dam funny.
How could anybody like that bozo American Pig. Only idiots like him, he always insults people.
Just kidding you know :-)
Putting useless posters in your killfile makes the page load a bit faster. I used to have 3 in there (including our favorite subway_crash_means_more_money_for_transit friend) before my cookie was zapped.
I scrapped the killfile a long time ago. To paraphrase Don Corleone, "Keep the intelligent ones close and the dummies closer."
By the way, Salaam would also not have made my killfile. I am more offended by ignorance than by political belief. I just hope I'm not in your killfile.
I can assure you that you aren't. There are only three. All have started flame wars, as that gets you on it. JM can post good items, but made the list due to too many long posts of junk, which is why he's there.
Unfortunately he's one of the people who's got nothing to contribute to the board, accept to talk sh*t.
Killfiling him sounds choice.
-Stef
Yo, Jerky, wipe that FOAM from your mouth. SubTalk just keeps getting better and better. Go Dave.
I'm very skeptical about so-called progress. That's what's given us CBTC, Stoplight style signals, Dispatcher control centres, transverse cabs, constant tention catenary and front wheel drive.
You know this is what makes me purely sick!
Life Is Progress, EVERYTHING IS PROGRESS! Without progress, we are doomed to repeat history, in which I'm personally not up for! Bad Enough exterior subway car graffiti is return and that's about as much history repeating as I can stand. It's just a logo, one of which I created for the talks, the whole idea is that we are in a new millenium and it's time we start showing it and acting like it!
You all better get used to the idea of R-142, R-142A, R-143, R-160 and R-160A cars in our system because if you can't deal, get out the hobby!
I didn't want to use harsh words but people are such babies over little things such as a message board logo!
My Lord!
Regards,
T.Lo (Trevor Logan)
www.transitalk.com
You can't let the children get to you. One thing you have to understand is that folks here will never change their ways. I for one commend you on the design of the logo and won't moan and groan about what's on the page.
As for the so called critics, who cares? You did something right, and they are too blind to see it.
-Stef
I don't care what train You put in the logo I just care if its somthing that moves on wheels!
I for one love the new logo.
It was a refreshing surprise to see it this morning. I didn't log on for the past couple of days.
Good work!!
John
If History repeting itself means solvent railroads with descent passenger service then I'm all for it.
You all better get used to the idea of R-142, R-142A, R-143, R-160 and R-160A cars in our system because if you can't deal, get out the hobby!
I'll take option C: Complain often and loudly enough to get the TA to keep the Redbirds around forever (at build new Redbirds at the very least).
God! You Are the Weakest Link!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
God! You Are the Weakest Link!
Goodbye!
........and as the weakest link you are a one tracked minded, childish person.
People like you with such ideals are the reason why we have problems progressing as a human race! Keep your precious redbirds, but when you start showing up with Asbestos levels in your blood from riding them so much, I don't wanna hear a damn thing!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
I want to ride on the NEW redbirds (a.k.a. R142)
Asbestos is only a problem is you mess around with it and if I did get an asbestos problem it would probably be from all those steam tunnels I explore.
I am a strong believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Redbirds and other subway cars like it work perfectly fine and by some accounts preform better than the new cars that are replacing them. The TA shouldn't be wasting it's money on hi-tech goodies like automated anouncements and the like.
Conversley, out exaulted leader Dave shouldn't be wasting his time making new Subtalk logos. He does enough for us as it is and deserves some time to kick back and watch some TV. The old logo preformed all the actions that a good logo should. It said Subtalk and featured some vaguely looking subway car thing. I would hate to see poor Dave burn out trying to make the website all flashy. Websites should be about content and for that nycsubway.org rates an A++++.
>>I am a strong believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Redbirds and other subway cars like it work perfectly fine and by some accounts preform better than the new cars that are replacing them. The TA shouldn't be wasting it's money on hi-tech goodies like automated anouncements and the like.<<
Yes. And then when the entire redbird fleet breaks down, you have nothing to replace them. Then you have to order new cars and put them through the testing process, except there aren't any old cars running, because they're all rotted out. Then what would be your philosophy? And, in case you haven't noticed, New stuff is gererally not problem free.
There's also a difference between "broken" and "in good condition".
>>Conversley, out exaulted leader Dave shouldn't be wasting his time making new Subtalk logos. He does enough for us as it is and deserves some time to kick back and watch some TV. The old logo preformed all the actions that a good logo should. It said Subtalk and featured some vaguely looking subway car thing. I would hate to see poor Dave burn out trying to make the website all flashy. Websites should be about content and for that nycsubway.org rates an A++++.<<
Perhaps you missed the part about who the logos were designed by.
i agree with your post 100% !!!
and ... as usual ... you don't read a friggin' thing ... jerkoff
and ... as usual ... you don't read a friggin' thing ... jerkoff
sorry jtrainloco....meant for sallami not u
What kinda jackass are you?
I created the logos, it was Dave's decision to post it or not. Dave felt he liked it and posted it. And unless you have website HTML intelligence like Dave and myself, a logo change can be done within 1 minute!
I CREATED THE FRIGGIN' LOGO, GET OVER IT FAST. AS FAST AS THE REDBIRDS ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH!
Regards,
T.Lo
Well pitty on Dave from accepting work from an rabid Anti-Redite. The R-142's are modernist trash. At the very least you could have depicted an R38 or a classic Budd R32. Your artistic style is very good. Pitty about the subject matter. A Flushing express with a purple and red background would have been absolutely fantastic.
UGH!
Next Subject..........I'm threw with people that don't appreciate $#!t
Oh BTW, I'm not anti-Redbird, I just accept new stuff because that's the kinda person I am! I like redbirds just as much as the next guy, BUT I know when to let shit go that needs to be let go!
Give the Redbirds thier much needed retirement!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Redbids they need to be hunted!
Trevor, you are wasting your time dealing with him. He's just another one of these out-of-town fools who profess that they know what is better for our transit system than we do.. Ignore him.
Peace,
ANDEE
Asbestos is only a problem is you mess around with it and if I did get an asbestos problem it would probably be from all those steam tunnels I explore.
I hope asbestos causes mental problems, because otherwise it'd be difficult explaining you.
am a strong believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I am a strong believer that that statement is as intelligent as its broken grammar.
The Redbirds and other subway cars like it work perfectly fine...
They DO NOT work perfectly fine. Their air conditioning sucks, they are difficult to maintain, break down often and are noisy, rusty, ugly and falling apart.
...and by some accounts preform better than the new cars that are replacing them.
Those accounts are only from this board. The "accounts" of some Subtalk people are delinquent, overdrawn and past due. It's time for some people to file for mental chapter 7. You seem to be the one in most need.
The TA shouldn't be wasting it's money on hi-tech goodies like automated anouncements and the like.
Yes they do. In addition to replacing garbled announcements with clear and understandable ones, it also allows elimination of the conductor with no detriment to announcements, a move that would save BILLIONS. Billions that can be spent on many things, one of which should be your hospitalization on Ward's Island.
Except for emergencies you don't need announcements. People should know where they are going and if not, it's their problem.
announcements are needed for train reroutes and so people can get up BEFORE the train is in the stop and the signs are visible.
And if one is standing up in a crowd it's difficult to see the station sign, and sitting on the wrong side.
You however are an idiot.
However, there's this little thing called the American Disabilites Act
(ADA for short) that MANDATES (that means you HAVE to do it by Federal Law) things like automated announcement systems on transit vehicles (mainly because the operator of the vehicle either cna't or won't do it). This for the passengers that are visually impared (aka blind) who have no idea where their stop/station is unless someone tells them (see lines above).
I would consider the SEPTA MFL, SEPTA BSS and PATCO far superior to any NYCS line and therefore you should be taking some sugestions from out of towners.
>>>...SEPTA MFL, SEPTA BSS and PATCO ,,,,<<<
ROOKIES, at best
Peace,
ANDEE
Indeeeeeeeeed!!
Faster than your PoS trains and the tunnels are nice and cool in the summertime.
Rank amateurs at best
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll take option C: Complain often and loudly enough to get the TA to keep the Redbirds around forever (at build new Redbirds at the very least).
If you like redbirds they you will have problems with your lungs.
No he won't. The asbestos is enclosed.
I'll take option C: Complain often and loudly enough to get the TA to keep the Redbirds around forever (at build new Redbirds at the very least).
If you like redbirds then you will have problems with your lungs.
Those who like vintage equipment should get off their @$$ and volunteer at their local rail museum and preserve some of the old stuff. I like SD80MACS and personally own a 1941 GE switcher. (All rail equipment is interesting) Nostomaniacs like you save big money on shave cream because your natural foam serves the purpose well.
>>>...and personally own a 1941 GE switcher<<<
Where do you keep it?
Peace,
ANDEE
What are they building at the tunnel enterence at Main st on the 7 line? It looks like some sort of building which I assume is for TA use. What is it going to be used for?
Looks like signals. New signals are going up in the area.
CBTC rears it's head before it's even in the testing stage on the L Line?
Had an unplanned opportunity to ride train 2180 from DC to NYP this morning and I have to say that it was a WONDERFUL ride. Rear power car was 2020 (2009 on the front I think), with a six car consist. I was in the third car from the rear (business class), behind the café car. We departed Union Station right on time at 0720, made our ONE stop in Philadelphia, and would have arrived NYP on time at 0950 except that we were delayed five minutes by a barge that wanted to pass Portal draw at the same time we did.
Observations: the train was about 60% full when we left Union Station. No more than a half-dozen people got off at Philadelphia, but a large number got on, bringing the train above 75% at that point. There were two other DC-NYP trains on the corridor with closely-overlapping schedules - 172, a regular "cattle car" run that departed DC at 0703 and was scheduled into NYP at 1015 and Metroliner 102, departing DC at 0700 and scheduled into NYP at 1003. We passed 172 somewhere north of Baltimore and 102 just before passing through Wilmington. 102 arrived in NYP close to schedule; 172 was showing 20 minutes late when they called my NJCL train. The ride was incredibly smooth all the way up, and the train didn't even flinch when passing another train heading the opposite direction (I heard the wind punch - the windows rattled - but barely felt it, and I was on the left side). The restroom was actually designed so as to be usable. We slowed so much coming through Baltimore that we might as well have stopped there; Newark NJ was almost the same. Other stations we breezed through, though, including Wilmington, which had a lot of folks waiting on the platform for 102.
Will I do it again? Absolutely. (Quite likely within the next two weeks - I have to go back to Silver Spring to pick up my van, which my daughter has borrowed - her new Taurus is in the body shop for a few days, courtesy of a cloven-hooved rat, a.k.a. Bambi.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice report, A_e_m! You should try it on the "Boston side" some time. I've done three round trips, all flawless. On July 9, the schedule (BOS-NYP) increases to five round-trips on weekdays, and three on weekends.
I'd like to, but I need an excuse that I can justify to my wife... and I'm NOT going to send my daughter up there (even though her housemate IS from Worcester) just so she can have a calamity that I have to rescue her from :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I took my 4th Acela trip today. 20 minutes late into DC (2153, we had a circuit breaker prob). More details within the hour when I post re my trip.
Hey, Dave, did you recently delete a bunch of messages from SubTalk?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes but there should still be at least 5,000 available.
Actually, there are fewer than 4,400.
Don't worry. We'll have 600 new ones to take their place pretty soon.
Hi again. Wanted to know if anybody out there wanted to share info concerning the old Pitkin Yd. leads that were numbered 7&8. I heard they were used at one time for storage. I could be wrong but according to the IND Phase II master plan, they built the Grant Ave. connection to overtake the Fulton el to Lefferts while at the same time continuing a four track right of way down Pitkin to Cross Bay Blvd. and beyond. Leads 7&8 were to connect with the four track right of way toward Cross Bay. While overtaking the Fulton el was attained, the four track right of way ends at about Grant and are known today as the Euclid Ave. tail tracks. 7&8 leads are cinder blocked now but am fairly sure they were used at one time. How far did they go? Did it hold a full length train? Did it end with a wall? When was it taken out of service if it was in service? Thanks.
Read the July, 2001 NYD-ERA "Bulletin" when it comes out (hint, hint/plug, plug).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks. I don't belong so how can I go about getting one. At the meeting?
Send $30 (to subscribe -- 12 issues a year, usually 18-20 pages, plus admission to the meetings) to:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
The July issue's probably going out July 5. Try to get the money in before then in order to receive the issue on time.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks so much!
Hey Dave, thanks a lot for passing the information. I just received the NYD-ERA bulletin today. Article was great. Who really knows that behind the bulkhead wall at Grant and Pitkin is more tunnel that extends to 78 St. and Pitkin with a station at 76 St. plus yard leads to Pitkin yard. Euclid Ave. A Train was right about the tunnel going out to 78 St. Thanks again.
Thank you. sometimes you have go behind the wall or bumping blocks.
It's a bulkhead wall. Have you gotten behind it? They have a cool map in the ERA "Bulletin" this month. The wall is at Grant.
read about the tunnel in a previous post 3 years ago.
Thanks.
I Belive from a previous post the tail tracks end at 78th Street under Pitkin Avenue.
Hi. I wish they went that far. Finally had a chance to go down there during the course of my duties. At about 3 car lengths away from the blocks is an emergency exit which brings you out on the Conduit across from the Burger King.
Is there any specific reason why the R-142a Kawasaki cars on running on the 2? Today I rode a train led by #7215 northbound. I usually don't ride the 6, so I noticed some differences between the R-142 and the 142a. The Kawasaki car seemed much noiser, especially the loud clikcing sound when the doors opened. The car rattled more than the Bombardier version. Some minor interior detail differences, too. From riding both, I'd have to say that Bombardier built a better car, but I'm not an expert on the reliability of either one......
As mentioned in another currently running thread, a hybrid train of 5 R-142s and 5 R-142As is running on the #2 line. Congratulations on finding it!
David
What the heck are they doing running Kawasakis and Bombardiers on the same train???
It's an interoperability test. The contracts provided that the cars should be able to run together in a consist, but one doesn't know if that can really happen unless one tests it, can one?
David
Guess not. I just hope the tests remain tests. It'll be a mess to sort out which Bom R-142s go to Westchester with the Kaw R-142as, and vice versa to Unionport/180.
One annoying thing about the R142's is that the electronic signs have a pause between messages when they're completely blank. The R142A's have no such pause between messages, the displays are always showing some text.
I like the R142A's more than the R142's. I think they're better. They have a better sound to them. Also, the fact that there isn't an annoying blank spot between displays is a good thing.
VIVA LA R142A!
the r-142A is cosmetically nicer. but, if you dig a little bit deeper, and do more comparison tests, you will find it somewhat below par to the bombardier. you like the the sounds of the R-142A? i guess you didn't hear the R-142 sing?
The LIRR and AMTRAK are offering free rides to any firefighter, in uniform, attending todays funerals.
Peace,
ANDEE
The City of New York has reserved the BIG restaurant, Bradstreets, at the intersecton of Scranton and Atlantic Aves. in Lynbrook, to accomodate the throng of out-of-town Firefighters and others who are expected to pay respects to the two fallen heroes from the area.
BMTman
That is the LEAST they can do...
RIP
I wouldn’t do what they do. Quite honestly, when it comes to making special arrangements, I havfe no problems with members in public service disrupting the rest of the world in such circumstances. It’s the least we owe them.
OTOH: I resent it every time that some political whatever manages to get parts of the city closed. Clinton caused us enough problems, let’s hope Shrub stays away!
John
I resent it every time that some political whatever manages to get parts of the city closed. Clinton caused us enough problems, let’s hope Shrub stays away!
One of the many things that I don't understand is politicians running for office who tie up rush hour traffic pissing off thousands of motorists.
for example the CSX railroad or BNSF Santa Fe railroad Southern Pacific etc.. many others !! My question is there such as a thing
as an in cab ride along ( I would like to shoot a video ) like i do with the subway LIRR etc maybe duct tape my videocamera on or near
the front of the rail looking foward on a diesel locomotive etc. I just had a thought of doing this as i did shooting the subway in nyc
like i will do again this fall hopefully october 2001. I do see on TV many networks shooting motormen operators while they operate
those big diesel engines with what looks like miles of freight behind them. Do they ever allow in cab riders @ ride along,.......
maybe someone out there in subtalk could help me out on this. I would love to shoot this on tape if i had the chance !!!
has anybody out there done a in cab ride on a diesel freight locomotive ?? & if so how did you do it ?? @ thanks !!!
For me, all I do is show my pass & badge and in most cases I'm extended the courtesy. I've even ridden in the cab of a steam locomotive.
really !! for example did you ride on conrail CSX and other freight locomotives: for example we have santa fe bnsf southern pacific
SP , when i lived in atlanta southern onieda western nofolk western etc....
yea i would like to shoot a video day / night ( like i do the subway ) every time i visit nyc !!
I did send a n e mail to BNSF railroad out here asking them if there is such a thing as a in cab ride along !! wish me luck on this !
this would be a lot of fun to do shooting video of this !! wooooppppee!! e mail @bnsf.com
I used to invite railfans for a cab ride when I worked for MRL...see guys taking pictures, etc...when I was a BN conductor took a guy once on a local. No permit needed...just another "brother" railfan.
Then a guy I worked with on MRL got caught bringing his kids for a cab ride...30 working days off..6 weeks. With regret I'd have to say I no longer took anybody aboard.
Whether managements still allow guests I don't know...what we do on our own is another story. I know MRL was terribly paranoid about lawsuits. If I were still running and before "those days" I'd have gladly given you a ride. Good luck.
There are rules for the connected, and rules for the rest of us. Someone who has connections to the Board of Directors of the particular railroad can get a cab ride if he wants, but an ordinary fan - fat chance. Fear of litigation is what drives most companies to keep civilians off the property, and after noting what happened during a strike involving the Florida East Coast Railroad in the 60's, when vandalism got really crazy, the lines became very vigilant about keeping unauthorized folk off the trains. To this day, and correct me if I am wrong, you cannot take a picture of the right of way on the FEC without prior permission, or else you will get a visit from the local constabulary.
I got this information from Trains Magazine, when they did a feature on the FEC.
you cannot take a picture of the right of way on the FEC without prior permission
Not quite, but close... the FEC is extremely intolerant of trespassers... fortunately, as a friend of mine found out a few years ago, Florida magistrates don't want to be bothered with railfans who inadvertently stray onto the edge of the property (they will side with the RR if the railfan is obviously ignoring the signs, though).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1998 I was doing some videotaping along the FEC ROW in Ft. Lauderdale. There's one site near Andrews Avenue where there is an active drawbridge. It's a great railfan spot if you ever get down there. I guess it's such a popular railfan spot that the FEC folks don't seem to mind cameras there.
They are so paranoid about trespassers that they are one step away from going on Thorazine. If you go to that location, do not let them catch you, because they will go nuts.
While i was there, I videotaped a track inspection car (ala the Lionel exec. inspetion car). They went right past me and barely gave me any notice at all.
You were in luck, and may that luck stay with you.
The first time I rode the cab, I was an RCI. I showed my pass and I rode to Albany and back on (wh)AMTRAK. Since then, I've never been refused although I was told that on the Autotrain I would likely not be able to ride the cab if I requested to.
To this day, and correct me if I am wrong, you cannot take a picture of the right of way on the FEC without prior permission, or else you will get a visit from the local constabulary.
They have no legal right to stop anyone from taking pictures (from off the r-o-w, of course) unless there's a Florida statute explicitly restricting photography - and I'll bet there's no such law.
Come to think of it, a couple of years ago I had lunch at a restaurant's outdoor patio in Boynton Beach just a few feet away from the r-o-w. I really regretted not having a camera when a train came zooming past at what I'd guess was about 60 mph. It was quite some train - five locomotives pulling about 120 cars, mostly COFC and empty auto racks IIRC. Sure won't see anything like that east of the Hudson!
Back when I was living full-time in North Carolina I had several opportunities to ride the cab, all of them on shortline railroads. In all cases I had to sign a stack of waivers absolving the RR of any responsibility. I got most of my rides by being the friend of a crew member, a couple by being the friend of a newspaper reporter, and one by simply going up to the crew office one morning with my older son (then twelve years old) and asking if we could ride along. Not only did we get the ride, but they let him operate the SW-1500 with three cars in tow (at 10 mph - track speed on that section of the RR).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You must get pre-arranged permission from the railroad, plus sign any waivers that they want you to sign, before they allow you into the cab during any working hours, otherwise the FRA and the NTSB will be all over them and possibly you too. The legal depatments of most railroads are very much not in favor of civilians like us getting on the freights, because of liability headaches caused when an unforeseen event happens. I have seen many people hitching rides in between freight cars, and if they slipped and fell, it is curtains for them. They would get found by the next train, or by a passing motorist or police car, and they most often would be in no condition to tell anyone what happened or why they were riding the train.
Many individuals file lawsuits against the railroads for frivilous and even fraudulent claims, and so the railroad's legal eagles take great pains to ward off any potential legal nightmares. Wouldn't you? I have also seen the results of what happens when someone has had a close encounter with a train that was moving real fast - they are a short lived, memorable and miserable sight.
Yes, but they are really rare. You either have to be a majour stockholder, buddies with a company officer or really good friends with a train crew. You MIGHT be able to bribe a crew to strap your video camera to the pilot for you to pick up when they get back to the terminal.
ChickenSheetXpress (CSX) truly frowns on it ... back in the Conrail days, I'd just call down to Selkirk for a loco instead of a taxi if I needed to get anywhere. :)
Yes, taking a cab somewhere used to have a different meaning around these parts.
Their legal department is not too keen on getting a notice of claim for injuries sustained by an unauthorized individual riding on their locomotives. Some people like to file suits for the most idiotic things, and will do almost anything, including injure themselves, to get what they think is a fast buck. If you work for the railroad, that is one thing, but if you don't, the legal headache for the railroad in these times is something they do not want. Now, what well connected stockholders, relatives of corporate officials, political figures, and celebrities are allowed to get away with is entirely another matter, but the reality is that there is one set of rules for the connected and another set for the rest of us.
There is such a thing as a cab ride. In order to do so without breaking the law you must have an HEP, or Head End Pass. These are issued to employees qualified in the operations of or employees in training for the operations of a locomotive or other equipment on the railroad. Press personel MUST go through the same procedures that non employees go to ride inside the cab and they will probably sign waivers in case of a typical accident, such as flying debris from a grade crossing collision or bricks thrown by kids. They are issued a one day HEP for the purpose of riding inside the cab, and this may not include filming privileges, depending on the rule of the individual railroad. An engineer is taking a chance at fines and discipline to run with unauthorized personel aboard the cab or locomotive. My opinion, if you want to film the railroads, enjoy the M1s while they are still here.
I have noticed sevral signals near Journal Square heading West with LED signals rather than incandescent. Perhaps they are converting their signals to LEDs. Would this work for the subways
LEDs use less power and if one of them burns out the signal is still visible. However I don't know if the LEDs can be made bright enough or focused properly using the lens. PATH heading west exits a tunnel for good shortly before journal square.
The TA is already testing LED signals. A couple of years ago, they appeared at Jay St. on the southbound A platform. (two hooligans in the station and the next signal at the end of the station). These have all three aspects. The red looks almost the same, (you can barely make out a pattern of little lights rather than a single bulb) but the yellow (amber) is obvious, being the same color used on buses and trucks now, and it goes out instantly, where incandescents fade.
The green is a very rich deep color, (535nm "pure green" rather than the old 565nm yellow-green) and these are also on the G line. I got a look inside one they had at the signal training facility at 14th & 8th. It's basically a star shaped array of LED's behind the standard colored glass lenses. The person there said that this kind was not approved because vandals can switch the different colors. But soon afterward, when I was yard posting, I saw another kind at 200 Ball on the tail tracks near tower A at the back of Coney Island yard. This one uses concentric rings of LED's without any glass lenses. This kind should be harder to tamper with. It is visible from the 86th St. Sea Beach station, as the tail tracks end right behind the northbound platform. It probably stays set to red, but even this red looks different than the others-- it is the more orange red, like the R-142 end signs. It stands out a bit at night. I got a lineup on this signal and saw the green and amber as well.
At least one R-44 had LED tail lights, but I haven't seen it since.
And Queens has had red LED traffic lights for three years now.
BUT, now the greens are appearing, first on a stretch of Jamaica Av. from 139th to 149th. Then last week, right round the corner from me on Cypress Av. Ridgewoos, and some on Onderdonk. They are so bright, and light up half the block at night. Once again, it is an unusually rich color.
And with the new greens are appearing the new walk signs, which use symbols instead of words (an orangr-red LED hand, and a white LED figure of a person walking).
Yellow they have not accepted yet because they don't like the color, I was told. The LED amber is too different from regular yellow.
I have seen the green LED traffic lights and the "Hand/Stick Figure" signs in Maspeth and Jamaica.
And another thing, Why is Queens the only borough that has LED's on traffic lights? I would have thought that the other boroughs would have had them by now.
Another thing, the red LED traffic lights also appear on the two aspect traffic lights. Take a ride on the Q112 bus to see a lot of them along the route, including the only hanging one I know of, at 150th Street and South Road.
And another thing, Why is Queens the only borough that has LED's on traffic lights? I would have thought that the other boroughs would have had them by now.
I've seen the full LED treatment, including hand/walking guy on Vernon Boulevard south of the QB Bridge.
The only place else where I've seen the hand/walking guy is at 49th and Lexington.
We have LED traffic lights out here in Suffolk county, but ONLY the Red and Green lights; NOT the amber. I've seen amber leds on the turnsignals of buses and trucks I wonder why they haven't done it for traffic lights - probably costs too much.
wayne
Two reasons why no amber:
Red & Green are on for longer, so the savings in electricity/replacement bulbs etc are bigger.
They haven’t made an amber that is “good enough” yet. Apparently the color is too yellow to qualify.
John
I just saw yellow signal the up state NY. I was in Downville, Wallkell and some other town and thay had them.
Robert
They got yellow LEDs in Philadelphia and New Haven. They seem to work fine there. Why not in New York City?
Maybe the yellow is too vastly different from the standard.
The only yellow LED traffic signals I can recall seeing are on a double blinker on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. Chicagoans, go check it out.
There is also one in Monmouth County, around Oceanport, IIRC. And on some toll booths. And the arrows in Tuckahoe in Westchester (the green and yellow arrowa, and the walk signs are LED, but not the regular aspects)
Once again, the yellow is avoided because of the orangey color.
Multicolor LED's can display a better yellow by mixing the red and green to a certain proportion (depends on the strength of the red and green), but single yellow only LED's seem set to amber or orange. They have to develop one that emits a lower wavelength yellow.
There is also one in Monmouth County, around Oceanport, IIRC.
There are quite a few in Monmouth County - highway 35 through Shrewsbury, Grant Avenue and highway 36 (the left turn lane onto Grant - not sure about the main lights), among others. Those I drive regularly. And Red Bank is installing them on Shrewsbury Avenue and Front Street, but they're not active yet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh. I was just going to report that at the place I think I saw the yellow LED flashers before-- on Eatontown Blvd. at the curve at Turf Dr., it is now regular incandescents. But they do have the LED's on the Garden State Pkwy entrance. And most arrows are LED.
I BELIEVE that LED is the standard issue for NYDOT projects nowadays...when the DOT redid the whole main drag coming in from 17 into town, they used LED with the new, super-smart, 'fuzzy logic' traffic control system,with embedded sensors,etc,etc....I know this system SO well, I can easily beat most of the jerks who SPEED on ahead, not paying attention to the traffic on the side roads....coasting..timing the lights JUST right...JUST like a good T/O on the L.....
[coasting..timing the lights JUST right...JUST like a good T/O on the L]
Speaking of which, I was on an L train a couple of Fridays ago. I got on at Broadway Junction and originally decided to get off at Lorimer, but changed my mind and rode it to Union Square once i saw how good that TO is. The train would approach a red signal at regular speed, and it would clear outside the view of the railfan window (presumably in the TO's cab, unless doing the "brown streak." Lead car was 4771 on this L train, and the train left Union Square at 16:09. It wasn't this past Friday, but the one before it.
How can you tell an LED traffic signal from any other?
I've heard that the NYSDOT uses LEDs for many of their traffic lights in Nassau and Suffolk, and probably elsewhere in the state too. I just don't know how to distinguish them.
:-) Andrew
A regular light has a center of brightness, LEDs do not.
LEDs are not solid, they are a series of dots (the LEDs themselves).
Thanks, Piggy.
:-) Andrew
And also the color of LED's is very rich. On the reds you can't tell as much, but the other colors, the difference is striking. Go to Times Square and compare the full color LED signs with the old incandescent signs (the only ones left are on the side of the Viacom building and the side of the Mariott. There are also ones on both sides of Madison Square Garden, and on the 7th Av. side, you can compare it to an LED sign on Macys's.) For this reason, LED's are the wave of the future, and may eventually replace every other type of light. (The next step is paper thin lights that can be used for flat TV screens or even electronic book pages!)
I wonder why. I've seen yellow LEDs in New Haven and other parts of Connecticut. They didn't look too much different from a regular yellow light. Last time I visited Philly, I noticed a couple of yellow LED traffic lights too. Not much different from the plain old yellow bulbs.
It's the latest rage for traffic signals, coming from California with the energy-savings ideas. They also last much longer, usually up to 5 years (where incandescents might last 1 year), and, as noted, are much more energy efficient.
South Jersey had gone almost 100% LED over the last few years. Except for the grainy look I think it's been an improvement.
LED traffice signals have made their initial appearances on Staten Island. Turning from Four Corners Road onto Richmond Road, a new signal head with a left turn arrow has LEDs for the red & green, but I haven't seen the amber (yellow) light there.
Also, the hand & walking pedestrian signals have also been spotted (by me) along Forest Avenue on some of the lights (which I could rember exactly which ones) around Bement, Bard, Davis Avenues (approximately)
Update: The singal with the LEDs on PATH is LA16X. The green and Yellow were LEDs.LA18X has just green LED. I have not yet seen red LED signals on PATH(and I not saying saying they do or do not exist).
Suggest TA could raise money by selling rights to name subway cars, such as "The SubTalker".
Daily News story
How about "The Foamer"
This was done on an ad hoc basis in the eighties by TAKI-183 and a host of others.
and all it cost was raking up paints from nearby stores.
>>> TA could raise money by selling rights to name subway cars <<<
At the suggested price of $1,000.00 each, it will probably be corporations doing the naming, and if so why not charge $10,000.00 each, and for a little more, give the car a "full wrap" advertising scheme. It will be the ‘70s all over again with a higher quality of graphics.
Tom
In the 70s a lot of the "Graphics" were good enough, created with talent, not money
If such a thing is done, wouldnt it be right to name them in memory of fallen heroes of both NYPD and FDNY?
This was tried before, although perhaps the previous attempt was somewhat different. A small number of World Fair R-33/6 cars had state (and organization) names on their sides for a time. I wonder if that proved profitable at all.
-cordially,
turnstiles
The new MTH Vol 3 shows on pages 28 & 29 their new R-17 4 car subway set in MTA colors. The front signs are a green diamond 5 and Utica Avenue. The side signs are too small in the photo to read.The front door (railfan window)is round. The cost $ 279.95 for Loco sounds and $349.95 for Proto-Sounds 2.0 . From the photo, this is a great looking set.
Have Fun,
Ron J.
Can anyone answer these questions for me:
1. what scale are these cars
2. what other cars does this: "MTH" company make?
www.mth-railking.com
what category do we look under??? I select New York Transit from the drop down menus and all i get are trolleys.
1. what scale are these cars
O gauge
2. what other cars does this: "MTH" company make?
R-42 D train, R-42 E train, R-21 #2 train.
R-32 (not produced yet)
R-17 (just announced)
Choose: Metropolitian Transit Authority on the upper link.
For everyones information, MTH might specifically use the number 6688 on one of the cars in next year's R-17 set to pay homage to the car at Shoreline that served as the prototype for all the Protosound effects for the current subway sets.
BMTman
That's great to hear but two questions remain:
1. Will it have a pic of Fearless Leader ( Lou S ) in the motorman's cab ?
2. Will Heypaul be strapped to the Pantograph Gates.
Remember Doug, you must strive for realism.
Those accessories will be available in the MTH 2001 IV catalog...
:-)
BMTman
Is MTH also planning to supply a little set of car inspectors? Oh no, that's the R16 set. Nevermind. :)
I can hardly wait.
It'll circle my layout once and break down.
That's what the little Alco RS-3 diesels are for. :)
MTH's 6688? Perhaps it should be a Redbird equipped with a Trolley Pole and presented as a gift for our fearless leader.
-Stef
I think I'll wait for these to come out and do a car purchase.
-Stef
You might want to think about that!
They are going to paint them silver with a blue stripe!
Well at least they would look more authentic compared to a Redbird R-21.
-Stef
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooo.
But 6688 is partially silver & blue now (thought not for long :))!
I have a feeling that a few people will be buying that set, painting a car red, and retrofitting it with trolley poles ;).
I think a more appropriate paint job would be to have it covered with lots of grafitti and rust.
[I think a more appropriate paint job would be to have it covered with lots of grafitti and rust.]
Not if your goal is to preserve 6688 so new generations can learn to appreciate what a fine lady she is !
BTW, When we uncovered the grafitti (during our paint stripping) I thought for a few moments that it might be interesting to preserve some of it ... but that was just for a few moments.
Mr t__:^)
If you were to keep going, chances are you'll uncover the original maroon paint.:-)
Been there, done that ...
Under the red was anti-gafafiti white (she did time on the Times Sq Shuttle in that color), then the big blue stripe, then maroon.
The stripper we're using undresses her one layer at a time (generally).
BTW, we're about 3/4 done now & hoping to put on the final coat later in the summer.
Mr t__:^)
Is 6688 one of the 10 or 20 R17's that did a stint on the Flushing line in 1986 when the R33S were getting their GOH ?
Exactly!
6688 did operate on the Flushing Line. My only question is was it 1986? I thought it might have been earlier, say 1984, but what do I know?
-Stef
What sort of stripper is it?
Home Depot KS-3 ... don't breath it in & run to the sink if you get any on you. We have all the shop doors open & ware heavy gloves.
The good news, it's no wash, i.e. scrap the paint off & you can re-paint because all the stripper comes off too.
Mr t__:^)
Just a thought ... betcha there's pictures to be found of 6688 wearing the warpaint ... perhaps framing a few for display inside might present that piece of ta history without having to leave it on the car itself. Like it or not, it WAS part of the history though the car itself SHOULD be "clean" ... just please don't disgrace it with that ta "war between the states" color scheme "official graffiti." :)
It would have been nice to have had the option to order the cars in different colors. After all...they do that with locomotives and other rolling stock. Why not an R-21 in Pullman Green, or an R-17 in maroon?
Comes down I suppose to the realities - if you do up a GP-40 locomotive, just about every railroad in creation had them and a lot of modellers wanted them so you could do a couple hundred in this color, another couple hundred in another color and then have decals and such applied with road markings ... I often hear people complaining that this color or that marking wasn't authentic or that such and such a railroad never had such equipment.
For NYC subways, I wonder how many people really want to buy subway cars at all compared to other rolling stock. There ain't all that many train nuts and as the years go on, I expect the number diminishes. If someone were to put out subway cars in N gauge (I can't afford brass) I wouldn't much care what color they came in if they looked like NYC subway cars ... and as to paint jobs, well ... I'd be very careful and find the time to do it to what I'd I suppose. I'd just be so giddy to have ANYTHING. :)
R-10s in S gauge would do it for me. Not to mention R-1/9s.
Spoilsport! :)
I want my N "ta" ... heh.
You've hit the nail on the head SelkirkTMO. The colors chosen by MTH for the R-21/17's were based on a marketing decision. MTH chose to model the R-21 as an "archetype" subway car based on input from the New York City Model Transit Association. That done, it was felt that although the prototype cars never wore the "Redbird" scheme, there would be a great interest in this color scheme, as the Redbirds are now in their twilight days. The R-17 was, of course, a natural follow-on since it could be made with a minimum of changes to the expensive molding dies (the storm door is a separate piece). Many people missed out on the original R-42 offering in the popular '70's MTA blue and silver. MTH thought they would give these people a second chance, and after all, why not go with a proven "winner". This color scheme/prototype match will be authentic. The subway cars that MTH are offering represent a very small, but important, part of their market. Although they cannot please everyone, all the time, the very fact that they (MTH) produced these cars (R-21's) in the first place, in direct response to modeler's input, is a testimony to the company's dedication to make models that modelers want. For those who must have these cars in the other color schemes, repainting is always an option. I know that I plan to do one of my sets in the original "kale" green as well as a set in the MTA blue-silver.
Heh. Wonder how many people can "spot" the ACTUAL original colors of those cars from a paint chip sample. Or the R1/9's for that matter before the steel dust caught up with them and obscured "City of New York" on the sides. :)
You might have noticed that the round window in the photo looks like it was cut by hand. I doubt that's what the finished product will look like. On these models, the storm door is a separate piece.
Since the only real differences between the R-21 set and the R-17 set are the storm doors and the paint scheme, it is interesting (for lack of a better word) that they are charging $50 more for the R-17 sets (Protosund 2) than they did for the R-21.
I just received two R-21 sets. They are impressive models----MUCH nicer than the grotesquely out-of-scale R-42 sets. The Protosound 2 sounds are well thought-out, too.
What exactly was the Sperry Rail Service car used for?
The Sperry Rail Car was, and is, used to check the rails for various defects. Even though NYCT has two Track Geometry Cars (TGC1 and 2), the Sperry Car is still around because it checks for different defects than the TGCs do.
NYCT is far from the only agency/operator using Sperry's services.
David
So, I've been riding the subways a lot recently. I'm wondering when will all those Subway changes for the Manhattan Bridge and 63rd Street Connection occur. What date is it on? What are the subway car assignments as of June 21st, 2001AD? What will ahppen in 2004, when the Bridge work is finally finished?
Right now, the changes are slated to begin July 22nd, with the B and D cut in half to 34th St - Herald Square. Anyone going to Coney Isand to ride Astroland's rides and see the Mets' "A" farm team will have to get off, walk upstairs to the Bway line, and wait for either the Q or the "W" (Astoria - Bway - West End via Exp/Bridge South side). About a week after that, on Aug. 1st, the F will be permanently rerouted from 53rd st. to 63rd st. A new train, known as "V", will take its place in the 53rd st. tube going local from 71st Av (Qns), to 2nd Av in Man., linking with the Grand St. shuttle. The G, meanwhile, is getting cut in half as well, from 71st Av to Court Sq. to make room for the "V."
Most likely, IMO, either the Q or the W will get the R - 68as that will be left behind by the B when it gets cut to 34th. The R - 40s that currently reside in CI will also probably wind up on the Q. There is a possibility that the V will either get the leftover R - 40s in CI or the R - 46s left behind by the G.
In 2004, service should hopefully revert back, with the Q permanently staying on the Bway express, the B and D going back over the north side of the Manny B., and the R - 160s replacing the St. Louis makes that will have fallen apart by then.
Does that about cover it?
They moved the start date for "V" to November. Am I right ?
That is correct -- the week of November 11, 2001.
As to car assignments for the July 22, "flip," they are still in flux.
David
I've heard a lot since i started on this board about the Manhattan Bridge closing for repairs. I seem to remeber the bridge re-opening in '89 after a massive overhaul project. I moved to DE in '91. You all mean to tell me that it took only 10-12 years for it to fall back into disrepair???? what's going on???
There is alot of problems structurally with the bridge. Alot of work was not done to the bridge during the last 10-12 years. It was a waist. But Since service has increased alot, the work must now be done on the bridge. The tracks should really be in the center of the bridge and not on the sides because it puts alot of stress on the cables. Like on the Willamsburg bridge the tracks are in the center not to the sides. So they are trying to keep this bridge alive. I say they tear it down and build a new one.
The tracks on the side design is the one of the major flaws with the Manhattan Bridge. The stress on the structure is incredible. Remeber that the old BMT Triplex units used to run on the south side tracks. They had the heaviest axle weight of any subway car.
The other design defect was with the cables. I am not sure exactly what it was, but unlike the Brooklyn Bridge they had to be replaced.
If they could have CLOSED the entire bridge to all train and auto traffic for two years, the repair job could have been done right!
If they close the Manhattan Bridge entirely for two to three years instead of mending bit by bit, I'm sure the bridge can be ment totally. I wonder who design such a crazy bridge. But we should not blame anyone, there are things that can be done.
The first problem we should face is if the bridge is totally closed, how can we arrange the traffic between Brooklyn and Manhattan. Manhattan Bridge is a life line to subway. If we really totally close it, we should build something to replace it or else I can't imagine what will happen.
A better way is to tear down this bridge and build the something else, like a tunnel below the East River. It will be more energy conserving because the trains need not to climb up from the tunnel to the bridge and back to the tunnel. Although the cost will be very high, but we should do this other then mending this torn bridge. If a big hurricane hits New York, this bridge will be the top pirority to be torn.
The last forth word of the last senetence has a mistake. It should be "priority" instead of "pirority".
Uh, the Triplexes ran on the north side tracks. Prior to Chrystie St., the north side tracks fed the Broadway line. If they did run on the south side, it had to be infrequent.
Being that as it may, the bridge had to be thinking, "Oh, my aching deck!" every time those behemoths crossed it. Of course, the BMT standards weren't exactly lightweights, either.
You're right -- they ran on the north. The north tracks were used far more than the south, which also cause an unbalance.
Re the cables -- either the Manhattan Bridge or the Williamsburgh Bridge used linseed oil to preserve the cables, and it ended up causing corrosion requireing their replacement.
Re the cables -- either the Manhattan Bridge or the Williamsburgh Bridge used linseed oil to preserve the cables, and it ended up causing corrosion requireing their replacement.
It was the Williamsburgh; it did not use galvanized wire. A recent inspection showed rather that these cables were intact. There is a weight imbalance on the Williamsburgh that requires its replacement. This replacement is being done in place with partial traffic being maintained. The main cables will remain.
The structural problems with the Williamsburgh are more serious than those of the Manhattan. If the WillyB problems were ignored, the entire bridge would have collapsed. This is not the problem with the Manhattan. The roadway would collapse but the bridge structure would remain intact.
Fall back into disrepair? They never finnished repairing it the first time! No, this is the very same project that was going on when you left, still going strong!
The routings we've had for the last 13 years result from the tracks on the south side of the bridge being closed, and involve a detour where the (Q) is routed via 6th Ave instead of Broadway. That's going back to normal with the upcoming reroute with the south tracks restored. Now the north tracks will be closed, and the (B) and (D) cut back to 34th St. The southern part of the (B) will be replaced by the (W) on Broadway and the West End line in Brooklyn while the (Q) will run Broadway express, and have local and express variants in Brooklyn on the Brighton line to cover for the (D)
:-) Andrew
Chalk this up to NYS&NYC DOT incompetence again. I was in kindergarten that last time the B, D, N, & Q all shared the bridge simultaneously. In all likelihood, I will make law school by the time they're finished with that damn project. Even still, there will be something wrong with it.
And to think that there was a plan to route Interstate 78 over that bridge several years ago. Perish the thought!
(Chalk this up to NYS&NYC DOT incompetence again.)
Although the chief engineer has been arrested on bribery charges, it is the pols who are to blame. There is an open question as to whether the bridge CAN be "fixed" well enough to continue to accomodate heavy trains and trucks without ongoing cracking. But the pols didn't want the political and procedural hassle of an alternative, such as a replacement tunnel, and didn't want to spend the money on Brooklyn. Hence, they told NYC DOT to patch it up well enough to hold until they get out of office.
It's worked for three Mayors and two Governors so far.
It's worked for three Mayors and two Governors so far.
Didn't the Steinmann Report go to Mayor O'Dwyer and Governor Dewey?
(It's worked for three Mayors and two Governors so far.
Didn't the Steinmann Report go to Mayor O'Dwyer and Governor Dewey?)
Sure did. 1955. But only three Mayors and two Governors have gotten away with having half the bridge closed for decades at a time.
Can everyone say Money Pit? The bridge is beyond the point of no return. With all the money they've sunk into it, tearing it down down now would be foolish. They should have pried Hell Gate Bridge loose, floated it down river, and put it in place of the Manhattan Bridge. Or at least cloned it. Too late now.
(Can everyone say Money Pit? The bridge is beyond the point of no return. With all the money they've sunk into it, tearing it down down now would be foolish. )
The phrase I use is "infrastructure Vietnam."
Actually, you were in the 3rd. grade when the B/D/N and Q all ran via the bridge. From September to December 1990 the N ran via the bridge, all alone, on the south side tracks.
"Actually, you were in the 3rd. grade when the B/D/N and Q all ran via the bridge."
What's the difference. It's been an eternity since there has been such a service.
Do you want to know how I could tell? I was riding on the #5 express the other day, and it had a map of the old subway alignment including the bridge services circa late 1980s. You could easily guess that it was a 'bird in the 7700s. Quite a long time indeed.
There's still a map from the 1980's on an in-service train?!
Yep. On an R-28 as a matter of fact. Like I said earlier, after GOH, they must have forgot to remove it; they just put newer maps over it. In this case, however, both the newer maps were torn out, leaving the old one to show.
The 6th Avenue AND the BMT lines used the M/B in late 1990. For a very brief time, both sets of tracks were in use that year!! I remember distinctly that my buddy took the N express to his job near Union Square while his wife took the B to 47-50th, on the 6th Avenue.
Them after the south-side "H" tracks were closed again, he switched to riding the "B" wiht the Mrs. as far as 34th Street and doubling back on the N or R, as the N would now be local all the way from 62-Street/New Utrecht through the Montague Street Tunnel, etc.
Oregon's tax court recently ruled* that a mentally disabled taxpayer could deduct the full amount of his automobile-related expenses from his state income tax because using private transportation was medically necessary given his condition. More specifically, the court held that "public transportation is viewed as incompatible with taxpayer's mental needs."
Obviously, the Oregon judge has never seen some of the weirdos who manage just fine on the NYC subway!
* Department of Revenue v. Rakocy, Docket No. 4504, 5-23-2001.
MENTAL disability..and has to drive ?? What kind of disability...are they "there" or a danger behind the wheel? Interesting indeed.
>>> MENTAL disability..and has to drive ?? <<<
It is not that big a stretch really. If you needed a cane or wheelchair to move around you would not find it strange that these items (and repairs and upkeep for the wheelchair) were deductible as a medical expense.
This taxpayer has gone one step further and successfully claimed that because of his fear of crowds and enclosed places (for which he has medical documentation) such as a transit bus, his only way to travel anywhere is by car, and therefore the car and its maintenance is deductible as a medical expense. On the Left Coast that argument is a winner.
Tom
This taxpayer has gone one step further and successfully claimed that because of his fear of crowds and enclosed places (for which he has medical documentation) such as a transit bus, his only way to travel anywhere is by car, and therefore the car and its maintenance is deductible as a medical expense. On the Left Coast that argument is a winner.
The Tax Court opinion merely mentioned that the taxpayer had medical evidence stating that mass transit was not appropriate given his mental status; it didn't explicitly refer to crowds and enclosed places, though that seems like an obvious implication. I still wonder if someone in such fragile mental condition should be driving in the first place!
Incidentally, the taxpayer also sought to deduct his cable TV bills because his shrinks had said it was therapeutic for him to view "mild" TV programs (as opposed to what?) The Tax Court rejected this deduction, reasoning that appropriate programs could be found on over-the-air broadcast TV.
I deduce this taxpayer suffers from agoraphobia? Of course the cable-TV argument sounds like a scam...
Fear of crowds? Fear of open spaces? Social phobia?
The cash fare is going to to $2(!!!!!) from 1.60 making SEPTA the second most expensive transit agency in the country. Now if only they could improve service up to that level. No work on the effect on token or Regional Rail prices. SEPTA claims it needs to cope w/ decreased funds from Harrisburg. A few days ago I heads some PA Republican touting how people people in the suburbs were Republican and how more people were moving to the suburbs. Well if SEPTA Regional Rail rates go up and if the suburbanites find it hard to navigate overcrowded city streets in their SUV's they might not be Republicans for long.
I plan to deal with this by going out and buying about $20 in tokens and $20 in PATCO-SEPTA transfers. The new fares will take effect July 1.
>>>...making SEPTA the second most expensive transit agency in the country.<<<
Who is the first most expensive?
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, the $1.90 proposed fare would have made SEPTA the second highest fare, behind San Diego's $2. Now, we are tied, except that SD doesn't charge for transfers (except to routes of neighboring properties). We in Phila can now truly say 'We're #1!'
Time to break out the foam pointy fingers.
People have the nerve to complain in greater Boston when the "T" subway fare went from 85 cents to $1 recently. What really surprises me is CT Transit in greater Hartford and our own New Britain Transportation (NBT) bus company here still charges only $1 for a fare. "Only", considering the ridiculous gas prices lately. Zone fares were done away with in 1998. (It used to affect the "P1" route from Hartford to downtown New Britain.)
It's a shame the Middletown-Hartford Bus dosen't run on weekends. I'l use that to catck Amtrak at Hartford instead of Peter Pan.
Do you know if the Middletown-Meriden shuttle only costs $1?
The cash fare is going to to $2(!!!!!) from 1.60
I heard $1.90 on the radio this morning. I thought "That's silly; they should make it an even $2."
SEPTA's website says $2. Here is the pasted link:
http://www.septa.org/news/20010621-20010721-12015.html
Well it looks like you got your wish. Thank you very much Chuchubob. Next time you have a "good" idea keep it to yourself and definitly don't go saying it where a SEPTA execuitive might overhear you.
:)
Like 10 cents is going to break anyone
There were a couple of surprises today. The $2 was a slight shock, after the $1.90 was expected (some say the reason for $1.90 was that the state would decrease subsidies if the fare went to $2, so SEPTA reacted with the 'almost' $2 fare - I'd be surprised if this were true that SEPTA wouldn't try to charge $1.99!). Transfers went to $0.60, as expected, despite word earlier that this might be modified to $0.50. Tokens go to $1.30, as proposed. School fares are to be modified somewhat, and this modification is allegedly why the $2 was adopted (to cover the losses). No details on the news about commuter fares, except that they're going up - the proposal to make many city stations Zone 1 gathered a good deal of controversy, especially from riders using stations that wouldn't get this break.
I object to your subject line, so I will change it to something more suitable.
Touche
At US $2 per ride, which works out to being more expensive than the $2.25 Canadian per ride on the TTC (The most underfunded public transportation system on the continent) after its fare increase, it seems logical that SEPTA servie would be on par with the TTC if not slightly better.
This would mean (not a complete list, just a few points that I can think of right away):
- Train frequency on the subway during peak hours every 2 - 3 minutes at most.
- Longest interval between trains during nonpeak hours of 5 minutes.
- Frequent streetcar service on all routes.
- Frequent bus service on most routes, except for ones that hardly get used and go to obscure places.
- Reasonably comprehensive night service when the subway is closed, lots of all night bus routes and a few all night streetcar lines.
- Free transfers between routes and different modes of transportation.
So, how does SEPTA measure up?
-Robert King
The current exchange rate is about 1.4 CD for every USD. This would make a $2.25 CD fate equal to a $1.60 USD fare. The SEPTA fare is about equal to 2.8 CD.
That's quite correct, but what I'm trying to find out is whether or not SEPTA's passengers are getting what they are paying for in terms of service? Since SEPTA's fares are now more expensive than the TTC's, is SEPTA providing service comparable to, or better than, the TTC? SEPTA might have a decline in usage if they raise fares but do not provide a sufficient level of service to the public that justifies the cost of the fares in the minds of riders.
-Robert King
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought your service comments were some sort of sarcastic joke.
To answer your question. Is a $2 SEPTA fare worth it's service. HA!
No, I was quite serious. Raising fares can be a disaster if the price per ticket climbs high enough that passengers decide that the service available to them doesn't merit the ticket cost and decide to use alternative methods of transportation instead. If that happens, the revenue lost due to reduced passengers exceeds the revenue increase brought about by raising fares than SEPTA will be worse off financially than before. I was also interested in comparing the quality of service between the TTC and SEPTA, given that both fare increases have occured at roughtly the same time. My concern was that if SEPTA's service isn't very good as it is, their passengers might decide that it doesn't merit the cost of the increased fares and that they will seek alternative means of transportation which leads to the problem I've outlined above.
-Robert King
There's an interesting aside to the fare rate and passengers leaving.
I read (or heard) that when the cost of a single transit ride exceeds the percieved cost of an automobile (the figure used is gasoline costs, as this is what the average person sees all the time, the cost of insurance finance and maintenance is usually not "at hand". If SEPTA raises the base fare (cost of a single ride) to $2.00 with the cost of gas generally lower per gallon, the discretionary rider will desert transit for the auto. No transit system anywhere can survive on the captive rider alone.
Well Regional Rail service is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP. Currently the max fare into Centre City is $5 and the max fare ANYWHERE is $6. I have no doubt that Regional Rail Revenue rill rise.
SEPTA vs. TTC
In terms of fares the new SEPTA token will cost $1.30 vs. $1.80 CDN for a TTC token.
A SEPTA city pass is now $70 vs 93.50 CDN for the TTC.
1. The peak headways TTC vs. SEPTA are not all that different. Off peak is where the difference lies. While the TTC has 5 minute headways at all times, SEPTA has very long headways nights and weekends (up to 10 minutes). Also I would wager to say the TTC's surface routes have better headways on the whole.
2. The service on the subway-surface trolley lines is quite good (especially considering they must share the same tunnel), except evenings and weekends.
3. SEPTA has in general wider headways on the major bus routes than does the TTC. At night the headways are really wide, but that probably has more to do with the city than SEPTA.
4. SEPTA's owl service is quite comparable to the TTCs and in fact probably provides more options. The 10, 13 and 36 trolleys run all night
5. Transfers now cost $0.60, but one can transfer free from the trolley lines to the MFel or the el to the subway.
You didn't mention commuter rail, that no doubt sucks up a lot of SEPTA's $ and is something the TTC doesn't have to worry about. The commuter rail in Philadelphia is better than the commuter rail in Toronto by almost every measure.
I've heard some pretty good things about GO. What have you heard bad about it?
GO does well with what they have... but that is not a lot.
Like the TTC their operating subsidy is superlow (around 18% subsidy).
So apart from the Lakeshore East and West lines, GO only runs trains on weekdays in the rush hour and in some cases only in peak direction.
In other words, if there are not enough passengers to stuff an 8-10 car (bi-levels at that) then they can't do it. They run buses instead (before and after rush hour).
Also, the GO Commuter Parking lots are nearly all at 100% capacity, so they are at a saturation point unless more money can be procured to open new stations and build new lots. This is happening slowly... but it will take a while.
For now GO languishes behind nearly every other major North American city in terms of Commuter Rail train trips.
For all intents and purposes, Toronto's public transportaion is not funded by any level of government unless you want to include the very meagre 17% or so of the operating costs that the city of Toronto chips in to the TTC and Go. In any case, neither the TTC or Go are properly funded which brings about its own set of problems.
-Robert King
So often on the board we discuss the events of history surrounding the New York City subway and other transit systems in the United States. We hear the old-timers talk of "the way it used to be," and we hear the no-so-old timers talk about what's going on now, and what the future holds. I just thought I would take a second to point out some of the "history" that's happening before our eyes.
When we read books about the subway's history, its many changes seem so far removed from "now." The nature of a historical text is that it makes its subject seem completed. But the subway system makes history every day.
It's something to note that at one time, New Yorkers watched as Chrystie Street changed the way the saw their subway. This year, we all watched as the 63rd Street connection changed the way we get to and from Queens (on nights and weekends, at least, so far).
I am always fascinated to hear about the "things that aren't there anymore," but the fascination is enhanced when its something I have that's not there anymore, which I had seen with my own eyes.
Here are 2 examples of things passing into history before my eyes:
About a month ago, the MTA began renovations on Third Avenue's westernmost entrance to the Lexington Ave. E/F station. Before they closed it off, there were two stairways, one northwest and one southwest. I always disliked the southwest stairway, which was flush against a Duane Reade drugstore and took up most of the sidewalk between the store and the street. It did not help that the Post Office decided to bolt to the sidewalk two or three of those big blue mailboxes in that small walking space, causing a continuous pedestrian traffic jam. (A few weeks before the entrances were closed-off, I noticed that someone had wised-up and removed these mailboxes.) Yesterday, while walking by the drugstore, I found myself having lots of room to do so. Something immediately clicked in the back of my mind that this was unusual. I looked down at my feet, and guess what. The "kiosk" had been completely removed, and the stairwell cemented over. No, not boarded up, but concrete! (The northwest "kiosk" is still there for now, just boarded off.) I suppose this stairway has passed into history, just like the stairway to the 1/9 that used to be on the northwest side of 66th street, since moved to the southwest corner. (The original fare area was also turned into a storage room there, but that's another story…)
Beside the Queensboro Plaza subway station is a large, seven story, red-brick building, which has been there for about a hundred years. For the five or six years I have lived in New York, the building has sat empty and quite derelict. I have seen pictures of the building in books from then nineteen-teens, when the Queensboro bridge emptied-out onto a quite beautiful plaza, before the el came through and obliterated it. Anyway, on top of this building, there used to be a large clock tower, or carillon, which has long since disappeared, leaving only its base, a small 8th floor "penthouse," if you will. On my travels to and from Queens, I have watched as workmen have been replacing the windows over the past few months. They have also fixed the pitted, decorative friezes, except, inexplicably, the topmost frieze. I saw a news article about how the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company plans to move some of their offices to the building, hence the construction. About a week ago, while looking at the progress, I noticed that the base of the tower had been removed! I suppose this was for aesthetic reasons, to even-out the roofline. Towards the rear of the building, they have begun constructing some extra floors on the roof.
I only point this out in that like the subway, the buildings around us can change in small ways, bit-by-bit. If someone were to look at that photograph of Queens Plaza from 1912, and compare it to now, they would never know that remnants of the carillon had remained till 2001.
Now, I can say to my kids, "I remember when there was a stairway here," or "I remember when that building was empty and run down, and there was a small 8th story on top."
We're all part of history.
Interesting thoughts, Pete.
I just had a historical moment myself. I glanced out of my window here on Main Street in Cambridge, MA (where I can see the kiosk for the Kendall/MIT Red Line MBTA station), and saw a Good Humor ice cream truck selling to people going into/out of the subway. [I have never seen a Good Humor truck here in Boston/Cambridge; the last one I saw was when I lived in Roslyn Heights in the 70s.] And people were lined up for the truck all the way into the subway kiosk!
What a wonderful and concise story, I enjoyed it alot. Thank you for sharing, It was great...
Peace,
ANDEE
You've got it down right. I always like to say "these are the good old days." The past is fun, but don't miss what's going on before your eyes.
I'm sort of convinced that the human mind wasn't really made for the pace of change that's occurred from--say--the mid-18th century on. And accelerated with the rise of mass communications in the 20th century. The impressions you pick up in your early youth (I would say up to no older than about 20 or 25 or so) establish themselves as "the way things are (or ought to be)." This must be some kind of Darwinian mechanism so that we knowhow to describe the world for our children, or something.
There's something satisfying at seeing something (like a recent ride with my daughter on the line past Mt. Moriah Loop in Philly) that still looks the way you remember it after many years. But I surprised myself when I visited one of my favorite spots (the P&W terminal at 69th Street) and I described it to my wife as "the new terminal." She said she couldn't remember any other terminal (she's from the area). I then realized that the last time it was the "old" terminal she was a little girl!
Not a senior moment (I don't think). I think it's the way people are.
There's something satisfying at seeing something (like a recent ride with my daughter on the line past Mt. Moriah Loop in Philly) that still looks the way you remember it after many years. But I surprised myself when I visited one of my favorite spots (the P&W terminal at 69th Street) and I described it to my wife as "the new terminal." She said she couldn't remember any other terminal (she's from the area). I then realized that the last time it was the "old" terminal she was a little girl!
I was thinking something along those lines while riding the LIRR the other day. For all the talk about the old Penn Station, there probably are very very few people still commuting today who commuted into the old station - probably some fraction of one percent. I would imagine that at least half of today's commuters weren't even born when the old station was demolished.
I remember well the old Penn Station and I can't understand why there's so much nostalgia for it. The ugly iron girders in the main concourse were depressing, and the outside columns were too short (in contrast with the much better proportioned Farley post office across the street). Of course the fact that it hadn't been cleaned the last 25 years of its existence contributed to all this. The long pointless walk from 7th Avenue to the ticket area was the ultimate lesson in wasted space. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm necessarily against "old" architecture (Grand Central Terminal, for example), it's just that Penn Station always impressed me as being cold and lifeless, in contrast with Grand Central. While Madison Square Garden and the office building that replaced Penn Station are hardly architectural "gems", I don't think they are the "disasters" that some critics claim they are.
I remember well the old Penn Station and I can't understand why there's so much nostalgia for it. The ugly iron girders in the main concourse were depressing, and the outside columns were too short (in contrast with the much better proportioned Farley post office across the street). Of course the fact that it hadn't been cleaned the last 25 years of its existence contributed to all this. The long pointless walk from 7th Avenue to the ticket area was the ultimate lesson in wasted space. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm necessarily against "old" architecture (Grand Central Terminal, for example), it's just that Penn Station always impressed me as being cold and lifeless, in contrast with Grand Central. While Madison Square Garden and the office building that replaced Penn Station are hardly architectural "gems", I don't think they are the "disasters" that some critics claim they are.
I have no personal recollection of the old station, but from what I've heard it was a pretty rundown place in its last years. Certainly the pictures of the main hall show it to be fairly grim looking, particularly in comparison to Grand Central.
I suspect that much of the nostalgia for the old Penn Station comes from: (1) a general dislike of Progress, all too common in NYC, and (2) the undeniable unattractiveness of the new station.
Funny you should enter this thread, but I'm glad you did. Most people who know me on this board are well aware of my love for the old Penn Station. But the thing is, I only know if from pictures and descriptions in books. I was not even a gleam in my father's eye when it was torn down. It may have been quite as you describe it, and had I been commuting to and from it during my lifetime, I may well have found it just as "depressing." However, to me, its destruction represents the arrogance of big business and the complete lack of foresight and planning exhibited by its caretakers and those in government who may have sought to save it had they been so inclined. The truth is, the majority of people felt just as you do, and the magnificent structure gave way to a rat-hole beneath a sports arena which is by no means friendly to commuters nor what is left of long-distance passengers. I doubt I would have been so dismissive of the loss of the station if I had been in your generation. I think I can recognize a great piece of functional architecture when I see it. Those long walks were there for a reason, but nowadays you do that same long walk squished beneath a ceiling which you can reach up and touch with your hand. Which would you rather do? Not every ounce of space must be "used." I realize this may sound blasphemous coming from a New Yorker, but I believe it.
You know, it's amazing how this board tends to inadvertantly focus themes, but the post with the rapidtransit.net article about the demise of the Second Avenue Elevated brought out in me the same feelings. Sure the el may have been dirty, noisy, obstructive, and not conducive to escalating property values, but to tear it and its Third Avenue cousin down because some businessmen wanted to make money, without providing an equitable alternative, is a travesty. There must be a balance between wanton destruction in the name of "profits" and preservation in the name of public benefit or historical importance.
I see your point, but Penn Station just never seemed to me to have been well proportioned. Maybe if it had been better maintained, I would have thought differently, but it seemed to have an "abandoned" feel to it. In contrast, Grand Central, even when it wasn't well maintained always had much more "warmth" to it, although it too has plenty of "wasted" space. As far as tearing down the 3rd Avenue el is concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. The 2nd Avenue subway should have been completed first. It's interesting that Chicago seems to prize their downtown els despite their age.
I do remember Penn although not in detail--I was perhaps 11 or twelve--but it was a TRAIN STATION, not just a basement. Chicagoans of a certain age can remember many stations, and in the case of Union Station a real concourse befre the rebuild which gave us a cramped basement. Both of these are examples of government failure to implement policies which foster retention of public 'spaces' as opposed to yaxing them into 'deve;opement'.
Well, I have a same feeling with you. A basement replacing a real railway station is a funny thing, it occurs in Hong Kong too. The worst thing is they even move the station to build an ugly Cultural Centre.
If you have been to Hong Kong about 30 years ago, you can see a big railway station stood on the waterfornt of the Victoria Harbour in Kowloon side. It was an international station, the starting point of the Kowloon-Canton Railway, Tsim Sha Tsui, Kowloon. Due to the political reason, the international service was suspended from 1949 to 1978, until the station has been moved. The only remain of the station is the clock tower of the railway station. Others become a big ugly cultural centre without any window despite it is so near to the sea.
The station now we use is called as Hung Hom Railway Station, former called as Kowloon Station. All railway platforms are under a big platform consist of multi-storey carpark, road connection, a stadium(!), bus terminals(there was more than one), and new commercial buildings besides it. The concourse is even extended with light steel structure , which seems to have a big contrast with the old concrete structure. Under such a big cover, 4 out of 6 tracks is used for commuter service in the 34km(19 mil) track.
After the extention and renovation work, the concourse for the commuter service are placed next to the pedestrian passage just under the big platform. As they said, to provide a better access to bridges and things like that. The upper concourse is now mainly use for international service(Although Hong Kong is handed over back to China, but we still have immergration restrictions to the mainland. So that through train service to Guangzhou(Canton) and other places are considered as leaving Hong Kong.).
Although we all admit that the old railway station looks very old and run down, it is a really grand railway station. There are only two remains of the station, the clock tower stays where it used to be and the pillars in Tsim Sha Tsui East.
The most ironic thing is after they have moved to Hung Hom (New station), now they are going back to Tsim Sha Tsui (commuter service only). The reason is the Hung Hom station is a bit isolated from the busiest centre. It is next to the Cross Harbour Tunnel and it is not convenient to the commuter, they have to change to the MTR(subway). This new station will be opened in 2004, but this station is nowhere near to the old one, it is just like an subway station lies underground.
>>> Penn Station just never seemed to me to have been well proportioned. Maybe if it had been better maintained, I would have thought differently, but it seemed to have an "abandoned" feel to it. <<<
I certainly agree with you about the abandoned feel to Penn Station. My memories of Penn Station were in the late ‘40s taking the LIRR to Flushing as an alternative to the subway, and at that time I was impressed by the station, but it always seemed empty compared to Grand Central. My trips were usually on Friday evening, after the rush hour. Had rail service been curtailed to Penn Station compared to earlier (pre -war) years by then? I'm sure it was crowded during the war. The station certainly seemed far too large for the number of people I saw in it.
Tom
During its zenith of activity in the 1940s, a train arrived at or departed from Penn Sration every 46 seconds.
I went through the original Penn Station once, or what was left of it, on July 20, 1965. The only detail I can remember was the booming voice of the announcer over the loudspeakers, and even then I can't recall if we were in the main waiting room or the main concourse. How much of it was still standing in 1965?
In 1965 they were constructing the foundation and supporting girders for the new Madison Square Garden. At the the same time the old Train Concourse with its glass roof was still substantially intact. I remember seeing the biggest I-beam I have ever seen cutting diagonally across the concourse about ten feet above the floor. Whatever one thinks of the loss of Penn Station, it was an incredible construction project - keeping the concourse in use at the same time building Madison Square Garden above it.
So then I take it the main waiting room was gone by then. We must have waited in the main concourse. The announcer's voice was clear and easy to understand, but it was loud over the speakers and reverberated. It's funny that I can't recall any details of construction; OTOH I can remember the shiny new R-32s we rode on the following day and the "Do all minors dig Milky Way?" ad prominently featured. Not to mention the green backlit "57th St." signs.
I recall perennial proposals to tear down the Loop L. Remember there are already two downtown subways in Chi. I think two things happened--Dan Ryan opened, and placed extra traffic in the Loop, making the Loop L more important, and at the same time, historic sentiment in favor of the Loop passed the pressure to eliminate it.
Right on both accounts, Paul. There were proposals to tear the Loop L down, but it became a national historic landmark for the reasons you cited.
--Mark
>>>I was thinking something along those lines while riding the LIRR the other day. For all the talk about the
old Penn Station, there probably are very very few people still commuting today who commuted into the
old station - probably some fraction of one percent.<<<
As you descend the escalator into the LIRR terminal at Penn, there's a picture of the old Penn that says "You Are Here."
No, we ain't there anymore...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Great observations....
www.forgotten-ny.com
The terrible tragedy in Astoria has resulted in two funerals this morning: an early one in Long Beach and a later one in Lynbrook. According to the Daily News, the LIRR is pitching in by running a free special train from the Centre Avenue station, near the church where the second Mass will be held, to Long Beach, where the first Mass will be held, and back to Centre Avenue afterward.
This may have been implemented to alleviate what could have been horrible traffic congestion that surely would have ensued from thousands of firefighters driving out to Long Beach, then to Lynbrook for the two funerals.
It is an interesting concept that hopefully will never have to be put into place again. Due to Long Beach being located on a barrier island, with only three bridges leading to it, traffic would have been horrible. A friend who lives near the west end of the Boardwalk, near the scene of the first funeral, claims congestion and parking are impossible on a regular summer weekend.
There also would have been an incredible convoy of vehicles heading to the second funeral back over the drawbridge and through Island Park and Oceanside along normally congested Long Beach Road.
Amtrak is also allowing uniformed firefighters bound for these funerals free passage.
Just wondering two things: Is there ample parking around Centre Avenue station, and how do all the firefighters get between the Long Beach LIRR terminal and the church, which is located a mile west?
We are supplying Shuttle Buses and cars for them
Steve
FDNY
What happened in Astoria? I would assume that firefighters were killed fighting a blaze but I didn't see anything in the news (I'm on the west coast).
Three Firefighters were killed in a Fathers Day Fire at a hardware store. It's speculated it was accidentally set by some kid's doing something they should not have been doing.
Peace,
ANDEE
From the NY Times. Free registration required to view articles.
.
A Routine Fire, Then a Blast and a Mayday From Inside
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/19/nyregion/19FIRE.html
.
Officials Think Horseplay Led to Deadly Fire
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/20/nyregion/20FIRE.html
.
Two Firefighters Are Mourned With Tears and Crisp Salutes
(On topic picture: After the funeral for Harry Ford, some firefighters
took the Long Island Rail Road to go to services for Brian Fahey. )
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/22/nyregion/22FUNE.html
Queens Surface frequely provides a bus when one of our long term active employees passes away.
Mr t__:^)
A 5 car r-160 was sitting on the 6th AVE express track at west 4th street last evening at about 9:30 pm. The seats are indeead the same color as the r-142. One interesting note is that the interior led signs was running digital ads
You mean R143.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
And four cars (or eight)...the R-143 cars are configured in four-car sets.
The R-160s have not yet been ordered.
David
I was in NY in 1994 and was really impressed with how it was filled with garbage and graffiti. Now I've heard that with the new NY Mayor - don't remember what's his name - it became much cleaner, even graffiti was cleaned of. Is it true? Rather hard to believe it seems to me. And it was not so bad about grafiti, I liked it a lot. It's exotic.
And another question: i was amazed when I saw graffiti in tunnels. How did they appear there? Is it so easy to get into a tunnel in NY subway?
Sorry for my English - I am from Ukraine.
No apology: your English is much better than my Ukranian!
The current Mayor is Rudolph (Rudy) Giuliani. See elsewhere on the board for opinions about him (and current personal problems).
Since 1983, when I came here, the Transit Authority has worked hard on cleaning up graffiti on cars, to the extent that the only graffiti you will see is “scrachitti”–defacement of smooth surfaces (metal & glass/perspex) by some sharp object. Paint on subway cars seems to be a thing of the past.
As for paint in tunnels, I have never tried, but I couldn’t see that it would be difficult to walk off the end of a platform and into a nearby tunnel. With a little bit of research (look for places to hide; work out train frequencies/headways), I don’t think it would be too arduous to get to a place where your “artistic” merits could be witnessed by all and sundry.
This is not a recommendation, by the way.
John
The subways were filthy then. They're filthy now.
The trains now longer have grafiti on them, but that's been the case
since the mid-late eighties. And that had little or nothing to do with
the mayor (then Ed Koch.) The subway is run by New York City Transit, a state agency that is part of the Metropolitan Transportation
Authority (also a state agency.)
Today's mayor, leaving at the end of this year, is Rudolph Giuliani. He may have something to do with the drop in crime, since he did increase police presence. However, the lower crime rate also had to do with the economics on the USA national level in the 1990's, which were (it seems) really good.
In general, Giuliani has a habit of taking credit for everything under
the sun in New York City. I personally find him to be a terrible mayor. He's a pariah to city employees, and absoulutely awful to teachers (and the NYC education system in general.) Even the police and firefighters, the consituency that largely put him in power in the first place, have come to hate him. In my opinion, the man is highly overrated.
Andrew
I agree 100% about our Nazi mayor. Overrated only begins to describe him!!!!!
I watched the city turn into a crime ridden,dirty, vandalized and for the most part dangerous dump under John Lindsay, with following gutless administrations doing little to help {I did leave in 1977} although I recall reading often of how beloved Ed Koch was.
I finally got the guts to show my face in 1996 considering Mom's age and knowing I'd better get to see her. So I took my chances and was pleased to no end to the improvements. I felt safe and the cleanliness compared to what I had known was unreal, and virtually no graffitti on trains busses or in stations. I didn't think it could be done, even some devastated neighborhoods had been rebuilt.
Whether Guiliani or the Daley dynasty in Chicago...would I like them personally? I don't know...probably not. But they did the job that had to be done, that at least in New York's case I'm sure some deemed impossible..even if from what I read Rudy is a dictator. I'm not loooking to start a barrage of agruments...I'm seeing both sides...but if NYC had been what I remembered I'd never have been back for 3-4 visits...and plan another some day.
While graffiti on trains is dead, In tunnels, and on the street it isn't Email me and I will show you someof my work and works of others, you can find them on the internet. Tunneling is not too hard but it can become dangerous, I was first afraid but then I got farmiliarized, graffiti artists become as aquainted with the subway as any train buff and transit worker. Mi govorim po ruski. Take care.
Today while riding PATCO I saw that all the platform scrollsigns were were displaying an appology/explanation for a service disruption that occured yesterday between 6:30 PM and 8:00 PM. A storm related power spike on PSE&G put the zap on the signaling system east of 8th and Market stoping some trains in their tracks and delaying others from 45 minutes to an hour. Does anybody have any details about this?
When laying up trains overnight or weekends on main track, what
is the current official procedure: are the trains left cut in?
Q Trains don't lay up on mainline track. The last time that happened, they were tagged beyond belief.
Ehh...
I think Q stands for "Question"
.......as in "Operational Q-uestion"
:>
In that case, most are left at the same length as they were before. Overnight layups of the R Train on the 4 Avenue express tracks are a good example. Also the overnight/weekend layups along Queens Boulevard and Hillside Avenue.
Last time Coney Island Yard flooded the Q's were layed up on the north bound Brighton Express from Kings Hwy to the Beach as well as the layup tracks at the Beach as well.
I believe Jeff's subject Q=Question not Q train.
To answer the original Q(uestion):
David
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BULLETIN NO.: 61-00 (Supersedes Bulletin No's: 33-98 and 57-98) June 7, 2000
TO: ALL TRAIN SERVICE EMPLOYEES
SUBJECT: ENERGY CONSERVATION
In order to conserve energy, train crews must at all times turn off the following equipment on all passengers cars that are stored (unless special instructions are in effect) as follows:
. Main Car Body Lights: Turn off only by using the momentary switch controlling the entire train consist from an operating cab.
. Heat, Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC)/Fans: Turn off only by using the momentary switch controlling the entire train consist from an operating cab.
Note: All high voltage circuit breakers, including but not limited to Air Compressors and Motor Generators, must be left cut-in (on) at all times.
These instructions apply to all passenger cars whether stored in yards or on storage tracks, including: stored trains, gap trains, OK spare cars, barn holds, main shoppers, and out of service cars.
Train Dispatchers and Yard Dispatchers must instruct Train Operators to comply with these procedures. Train Service Supervisors are to inspect stored cars for compliance during the routine performance of their duties.
In addition, office personnel are instructed to turn off the lights and all electrical equipment in any office that is not being used.
(signed)
Nathaniel Ford
Chief Transportation Officer
Rapid Transit Operations
Layups are only to be left cut-in during cold weather plans, otherwise it's uncharged.
If necessary to layup a train on an elevated structure in a residential neighborhood overnight, the compressors are also cut out so as not to keep the neighbours (London sty-lee) awake.
Ok, that + David's bulletin answer the question!
I think in days long past, on layups the compressors and MGs
were left cut out to save wear and tear.
My friend Bob finally got a computer and is now lurking SubTalk. He is a regular at the Harmon open house and grew up in the greater NYC area. He also visits "The Apple" on a regular basis. I will try to get him signed up to SubTalk. He would be a valuable SubTalker.
When he does sign up, I hope he introduces himself so he can be welcomed properly.
How many R16"s are still around. Are any of the operational?
Well, the only one I know of that IS operational is #6398, which is up at TMNY in Kingston NY.
The others that are around are #6387, at the Transit Museum, may not be operational; and #6305 which is sitting in the Coney Island Yard, may or may not be operational; and there's one that's not operational, it's a 6400-series car at a NYCT training facility in Bensonhurst. Not sure of the exact car number.
Only two were wrecked while in revenue service: #6494 hit a bumper block south of Broad Street in the late 1950s; and #6304 hit a pillar on May 20 1970 and had its left side sheared off.
wayne
The R-16 at the Training Center (ex-Public School 248) is 6452.
David
I have seen R-16 #6452 at ex P.S. 248 in Brooklyn. I've also seen R-16 #6305 at Coney Island.
BMTJeff
Someone once said 6494 got into a fight with a BMT standard. IIRC Larry, Redbird R-33 staightened us out as to what really happened.
An R-27 DID get into a fracas with a BMT standard, didn't it?
Yes. They took the good end of the R16 that got beaten up by a Standard, and grafted it onto the R27m which is how it got an circular-windowed storm door.
Are there still 2 R16's sitting in Canarsie ?
The 2 in canarsie are they operational?
Sounds about right.
Three for the Transit Museum, 6305, 6339, and 6387, and one for Trolley Museum of NY, 6398.
Transit also has an R-16 at it's training facility in Brooklyn, 6452, which is the only R-16 car painted in the Redbird Scheme. It never saw passenger service in Redbird Paint.
-Stef
6305 is also painted in redbird red, although the job was never finished (some of the old white/grafitti job can still be seen from it's ends)
Were any ever painted the dumptruck white that some of the IRT cars sported in the early 80s? I swear I saw some like this on the J line in 1981-2, but since I was only 9 or 10, my memory cannot be completely trusted.
I don't remember seeing any in white. I don't even think they got another paint job after they got their blue stripe in the early 70's.
Other than, perhaps, the endless graffiti and grime that accumulated over the years. I can attest to that, having rode on some R-16’s (mostly labelled JJ, irrespective of that line’s having been discontinued with the creation of the short-lived 6th Avenue – Broadway Brooklyn KK / K line) within the last few years of its run.
That's the way they ended up..........
Do R21's have Pantographs?
Read the thread -- they're talking about MODELS.
David
The spring-loaded gate like buffer that is mounted to each of the four corners of most subway cars happens to be called a pantograph.
I believe it is there to prevent passengers from stepping off the station platform between cars. In this usage it has no application or use as a contact for power.
By definition according to Webster's 9th Collegiate, a pantograph is a scissoring device used to copy drawings at a pre-determined scale. An electric pantograph or pantograph gate get their name from the copying of the scissor motion.
BTW: R-40 - R-46 + R-68s were all delivered without pantograph gates.
Is that just a gaping space between cars now, or have the pantographs been replaced by rubber covered chain?
They've got springs instead.
-Hank
Barrier springs, that is a new one to me!
It took me a while to learn to call the gates pantographs!
>>>Barrier springs, that is a new one to me! <<<
BALONEY SPRINGS is the more common reference...
Peace,
ANDEE
Since they resemble sauasges, shouldn't they be called "Bologna Springs"?
LOL
The R-40s and 42s were retrofitted with pantograph gates. The R-44 and R-46s were fitted with the barrier springs.
More interesting minutia. Some of the very early R-46s had pantograph gates but they were removed for obvious reasons.
Hmmm...I remember that the front ends of the early R-46's had several square access covers on the fiberglass front end; I always thought this was meant as a place to attach some sort of pantograph device.
Back when the R-44's and R-46's were fairly new, I used to be able to tell them apart by looking for the little access covers on the front.
The small square doors with the key lock were for trainline "Greenfield" cables - allegedly used only for emergencies to move the train in the event of an electric portion failure. They were removed in 1990-91 during GOH, which made sense since no one ever used them.
Oh, speaking of which, sort of (well, the thread is R21s and
we are talking about R46s, so let's move back to the A division).
Remember that question I posed a few weeks ago about R29 cars
and a little socket under the cab window? I'm fairly sure now,
since it only appears on the odd (compressor) cars, that this is
a B+ jumper to liven up the car in the shop for testing.
Well I just wanted to spread the word. On Friday me and my dad will be running as a crew on the No.6 line from Pelham to Brooklyn Bridge and the news media will be there. I did my interview with the NY Post already and Newsradio 88 will cover my first trip out of Pelham which will be the 8:08AM out of Pelham Bay. I hope to top it off I'm on an R142A. If not you will hear my announcments. It should be alot of fun tomorrow.
Also let me not forget but I wish to thank one person who made this all happen and that is the one and only No.1 weather man Todd Glickman
Farther than what?
Sorry, just joking!
Have fun! I’ll be looking for you on the box!
John
You're welcome Dave! I wish I could be in NYC to hear it, but I'll be at Seashore tomorrow afternoon driving our MBTA bus #6169 in a parade in Biddeford, ME.
I just checked the assignment log on WCBS's newsroom computer, and I see that our reporter Peter Haskell is going to be the reporter. Say "hi" to him for me!
Congrats to both of you.
As a one time thing, it is great, but as a regular occurance, I'd frown upon it.
Only because if something arose such as a station overrun or something similar, and a supervisor witnessed this, it could turn into something seriously troublesome for the both of you.
I mean lets be serious here, how would you (the father) feel if your son had to bang you in? And how would your son feel about having to do this to save his job, resulting in days in the street for you?
Enjoy the day, but don't pick together.
My hat's off to you partner. Enjoy the trip with dad...
-Stef
congrats!
Bring some tunes with you for the PA ... old Sly's "Family Affair" would be a good thing to irritate the geese with. :)
Sly is an excellent choice
Peace,
ANDEE
Couldn't help myself ... if I was working radio still, I would have come out of the story playing that and then getting my wisecracks in at the end. :)
Working with your father as part of the same crew ... that is so cool. I'm sure your dad won't mind if this 'Father's Day' present is a few days late!
Congrats!
Jim D. (RailBus)
Yes its all good today exept for that bad accident on Route 80 in Denville. We made it to Pelham for the interviews and photo shoots and then got on our train which was a R29 Redbird. It was truely a great day.
I hope the story plays on Newradio 88 on Saturday.
Hope you'll allow railfan-types to stay on board around City Hall Loop!
Here's the OFFICIAL WORD on this from NYCT:
----------------------------------------------
BULLETIN NO.: 79-01 (Supersedes Bulletin No.: 138-96) April 30, 2001
TO: ALL CONCERNED (PARTICULARLY SUPERVISORY AND OPERATING PERSONNEL)
SUBJECT: PASSENGERS NOT PERMITTED TO RIDE RELAY TRAINS
All Rapid Transit Operations train service personnel are reminded that PASSENGERS ARE NOT PERMITTED TO RIDE RELAY TRAINS BEYOND STATION LIMITS AT TERMINALS EXCEPT AT BROOKLYN BRIDGE ON THE #6 LINE.
Train crews and other operating personnel assigned to perform platform duties at terminals MUST ascertain that all passengers are removed from trains before they are allowed to enter upon relay tracks.
Passenger safety and well being is our primary concern. Line Managers and Train Service Supervisors will monitor this directive for strict compliance.
(signed)
Nathaniel Ford
Chief Transportation Officer
Rapid Transit Operations
You da man!
I will be sure to have a copy of this with me this fall. Thanks!
Congrats to Pelham Bay Dave & Son! I'll be keeping an eye (and an ear) out for any news on you guys...
BMTman
Good luck and have a safe trip, don't be late.
Hope you both have a great day. You never know we may read about it over here.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks! It should be in the NY Post with in 3 days.
This is something that very few get to enjoy, so enjoy to the max. You and you dad are very lucky, indeed.
Today's Los Angeles Times reports that the Los Angeles MTA board has appointed a new general manager, Roger Snoble, currently head of Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART). He replaces Julian Burke, outgoing Mayor Richard Riordan's henchman, a corporate turnaround specialist, a catalyst in last year's lengthy transit strike. Before Dallas, Snoble headed San Diego Transit. I'm cautiously optimistic; it's better to have the agency headed by a transit professional than a corporate hatchetman. Riordan will be succeeded on the MTA board by Mayor-elect James Hahn in July, who will appoint three members to the board. What does this mean for the future of rail transit in Los Angeles? Stay tuned.
I've been gone since last Saturday and am finally posting (the technical difficulties this evening prevented me from doing so earlier).
For my ease and so you don't have to spend a whole ton of time reading, I am dividing up the super long post about my trip into sub-posts as replies to this one. Please read the appropriate sub-post to read more about my travels of the past 5 days.
Enjoy!
Oren
I took MetroRail to Union Station to catch Amtrak's Acela 2208 to New York. As with the other times I have taken Acela, everything went well. I had the 2035-2039 set (trainset 9). The conductor was very friendly and showed me the features of the screen in the cabin in the café car. Very cool watching the tilt monitor as the train sped along.
We arrived in NYC on time and I headed for the IRT. I decided to take the 2 to 96th Street so I could have the railfan window and then take the 1 to 110th Street, my destination. First train to come in after quite some time was a 3 being led with a 5 car set from Pelham and thus, no railfan window. I didn't want to take this so I let it go and shortly thereafter, an R33 2 train entered the station. I got on and we closed up and headed north. We soon came to a homeball just south of 42nd Street that was red over red. A 1 train passed us on the local and then the homeball cleared to yellow over yellow, meaning we were going to the local track! It appears that all 7th Avenue trains were local at this time although the MTA website had no info on this. It did say all trains were express from 72nd to 96th (which did happen) so the #1 I wanted was now just ahead of me! Luckily, a local came in almost immediately after the 2 left. On this trip from the local railfan window, I saw an R142 heading south on the southbound local but I could not identify the numbers.
We soon came to a homeball just south of 42nd Street that was red over red. A 1 train passed us on the local and then the homeball cleared to yellow over yellow, meaning we were going to the local track! It appears that all 7th Avenue trains were local at this time although the MTA website had no info on this.
The reverse once happened to me on a Saturday night: all trains express 42-72, all trains local 72-96. Only the former was on the web site. It was convenient for me since I was going from Flatbush to 86th.
The web site rarely if ever bothers listing expresses running local.
Sunday was the day of the Nostalgia trip. In the interest of time, I took a taxi to Columbus Circle (I had just missed an M79 and waiting for the next one was not an option) and got my tickets. I met Ken LaCapria (occasional poster) and once on the center platform at Columbus, Trevor Logan (D40000 Cruiser) saw me and introduced himself. I also met Tony Mirabella and one other poster who I cannot recall (you and I conversed when the train arrived at the Transit Museum). While waiting, we saw 3 four-car sets of R68s go by with the old roll signs.
Once the train came, the lead was 6112C. We went off down the 8th Avenue IND towards Brooklyn. As we tooted the horn and passed thru the stations, people gave us some shocked looks. We had an hour at the Transit Museum (to enter we had to enter the triplex that stays at the museum) and then we headed to Rockaway Park. At Hoyt Street, we were held to let a R32 C train and R38 Far Rockaway bound A train ahead of us but we still managed good speed out to the Rockaways, especially beyond Howard Beach. It was still raining at this time. Once at Rockaway Park, we had 90 minutes for lunch but since it was raining, I just stuck around the station and ate just inside fare control. As we waited for the train to come around at 2:30, the skies started to clear. An R44 A from Lefferts was ahead of us but our T/O still got good speed in the Fulton Street subway. I alighted at Jay and took R44 5366 to Broadway-Nassau, R62 1530 to 42nd on the 4, and R62 1411 on the 6 to 77th. That whole train with 1411 was Jerome cars and some signs still read 4 Woodlawn to Utica Avenue. Why was it running there? Because of the split service? 1411 also had a broken speedometer. I enjoyed meeting those who I met on the trip!
I wasn't done for the day. Next stop was Shea Stadium for the Subway Series game that night. Took the M103 NovaBus RTS 9626 to 62nd and Lex where I descended into the Lexington Avenue/63rd Street Station for a trip thru the connector. The first train to arrive was (unfortunately) an R46. I got on. The T/O had the door opened about 2 inches so I had a so-so view (railfan window on the R32 is better). The connector is very clean and nice, I wish we had more speed. The stations are wonderful, too. I alighted at Roosevelt and caught the 7 to Willets Point. I saw 2 Subway Series cars along the way. I shared the railfan window aboard a WFR36 with another man who was on his cell phone the whole trip. I left the ballpark after the 8th inning (it was getting pretty late) and there was a train in the station. The 3rd and 4th cars were subway series cars and the die-hard baseball fans all wanted to ride in those. The 9th car was also a subway series car (the R33 single). I opted for the first car, a mainline R36, 9532, and had the window all the way to Grand Central. We went local. I must say, doing that run at midnight (provided you ignore your fatigue) is very fun. At Grand Central, I changed for the 6. At that time of night, you don't wait for a railfan window so when 1760 (finally) came in, I took it. They need more late night service. I think they should run 5 car trains with OPTO twice as often instead of 10 car trains with 2PTO at the current
That poster you conversed with was me! I was also at the center platform, blue bandana, light blue hat. That was me hehehe
Not you, someone else.
Finally, a post in which I can talk about 2 day's worth of travel. Monday will start when the sun rises for my trip home from Shea was technically on Monday.
I took Articulated 1015 across town and got NovaBus RTS 8611 on the M10. When did they change the routing of the route so it runs on 65th and not 63rd? On the return trip, I got Orion V 407 on the 104 and New Flyer 1071 on the M79. The next day, I got R26 7809 on the 5 from 86th to 42nd. I then took NovaBus RTS 8874 back up on the M101 Limited. Where is the M98 stop at 42nd and Third Avenue???
That night to go to the theatre, I took R62A 1808 to 51st Street on the 6. I rode in the 8th car which did not have a door chime for some reason. Two out of the three escalators between the downtown 6 and E/F platform were out of service causing a tie-up of traffic at the top of the E/F escalator (the normal up escalator was out of service, the normal down was going up). Once downstairs, R32 3392 took me to 50th Street. On the way home, we took NovaBus RTS 9625 on the M10 but when I got to 81st, there were no buses to be seen so I took a taxi across town. 9625 was one of several buses I took this visit that lacked ads.
Wednesday was my day to ride the rails alone. I bussed on NovaBus RTS 8777 to Lex and 63rd and caught a Q train, which came as soon as I got down there. It was R40S 4176 and it was a school car. I looked over the shoulder of the supervisor and the cab door was open. We reached 48 MPH in the dash. I listened to the supervisor talk to the student and he told him at West 4th not to be scared of the train and he didn't have to brake the train about 40 feet out of the station. We had to let workmen off on the MannyB. I alighted at Prospect Park and caught a R68 to go to a local stop for some shooting of photos. 2656 came in and I took it to Beverley Road. Almost immediately after I got there, two expresses went by. I hope the photos came out. R68 2596 was the next train and I took it to Newkirk where I got another slant, 4331. This was also a school car and again, I was looking over the shoulder. I took this to Brighton Beach, only because of the MTA's stupidity.
At Sheepshead Bay, the D (I forget which one) was just ahead of us and closed up prior to our arrival. I assumed it would be held at Brighton Beach for a connection and the Q relayed at Ocean Parkway. Clearly, this is not the case. We wrong railed and layed up on the inbound express. By this time, the D was on its way to Ocean Parkway and I was on the wrong platform anyway. This arrangement would also effect me later.
I waited for 2708 which I took to Coney Island. We were held at West 8th for the tracks at CI to clear. At Coney Island, where is the BMT lines façade? I could not find it. I walked along Surf Avenue to the aquarium where I caught a D, R68 2612 back to Brighton Beach. Once there, the slant on the outbound express left first and there were no signs alerting me of the fact. Then, I found out there was another student on this train (4374) as well and this time, the setup made it impossible for me to see anything! I got off at Sheepshead Bay and took the next train, 4206, to Atlantic Avenue. I shared the window on this train but I'm tall and looked over the shoulder of the other person easily.
At Atlantic, R62As on the 3 were pulling in just as I got there and I got in the third car, 2109. This car had no AC to speak of. At Nevins, I switched to 2101 which did have it (luckily). I alighted at Hoyt and got lunch.
Afterwards, I found the DeKalb Avenue stop and caught R46 5546 to 9th Street on the R. This car had a sick doorbell. At 9th Street/4th Avenue, I got R46 6192 which was in the station on the F. I rushed to the front (which was newspapered) and off we went. We went somewhat sluggishly thru Smith/9th on the inbound express track. Once past the track workers, we sped up and went thru the express. Bergen Street Lower Level was pretty cool. The station was dimly lit and I could see exit signs at various staircases. I don't know how fast we went or what the signals were like because of the obstructed window. I switched directions at Jay and took R46 5572 down the Culver to Coney. It appeared the inbound F trains were running at a frequency that was higher than 4 TPH (15 minutes). At times the cab door was partially open and closed, but after Church, it was open all the way and I got to glance thru. No R143 on the test track.
At Coney, I changed for the N. An R32 closed up just as I got there. By now it was 2:40 in the afternoon and I wanted to catch a B on the Sea Beach. By the time R68 2856 left and got to 59th, the GO was over. I decided to take the R to 95th Street. An R46, 6184, arrived on the express track. It was switched over to the local and proceeded down 4th Avenue. At 95th, an R46 just pulled out as we arrived, so I decided to try my luck with the buses upstairs. I saw a B63 leaving. About 15 minutes later, the next one came and I took it up 5th Avenue to 60th Street. It was New Flyer C40LF 909. It was a very nice ride. A little nosier than an Orion V/CNG and the small stop requested sign looked odd. Back at the subway, I waited for an N to Coney Island. After an interminable wait, R68 2802 finally came. It was pretty crowded but I made it up to the window. We went express on the local from New Utchret to Coney Island, only stopping at Kings Highway. Between 86th and Coney, I saw 2 sets of Redbirds in the yard and a train of R40 Slants heading inbound. What are the railroad tracks on either side of the Sea Beach at the portal for the subway?
Here is the WMATA Verdict in the case of the Sea Beach versus Brighton:
Brighton wins.
Brighton has a better run for the railfan with its express service with the R40s. Both lines score well in terms of scenery and station design but with no express, Sea Beach can't win.
I took R68A 5050 to Bay Parkway. As we went from CI to Bay 50th, I saw an R32 in the yard signed with a < N > Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach sign. At Bay Parkway, I got R42 4829 which I took all the way into Chambers. I then changed for the IRT. A 5 was in the station but was packed to the brim. I let it go, seeing an R142A about to enter the loop. An R62 came around first which I let pass, as well as some other crowded express trains. When the R142A came around, I got on. It was still signed as a southbound and the interior signs still said "LAST STOP." Within a minute, they were reset and the female voice said the new destination and that the next stop was Canal Street. I liked how the male voice waited for its announcement until we were ready to go.
This was my second R142A ride. This time, I was on car 7361. The car lights are still too bright. Unless the train has a crush load, those halogen lights could blind you. The automated announcements are somewhat annoying after some time. I can't stand the way it says Bleecker Street, Astor Place, Union Square, and Hunter College. It is clearly computerized. Also, the conductor overused the "Please do not block/hold train doors" announcement. It was used as the train left every station from 23rd to 77th, where I got off. In conclusion, the R142A is the best IRT car for commuting. But for railfanning, forget it!
On the Brighton Beach arrangement:
Most people going to/from Coney Island change at Sheepshead Bay. I sometimes don't, if I need a little divine assistance on what to do for the rest of my railfanning day (50/50 shot, correct platform continue to CI, incorrect go back and xfer at Prospect, Atlantic, etc).
Was 7361 missing anything, like a barcode sticker perhaps? :-) I took it and taped it to my backpack! MWHAHAHAHA lol
I didn't notice.
Time to head home, finally. I took R62A 1856 to 51st Street. Who decided to place an employee on the southbound platform with a mike that broadcasts through the whole station to the E/F escalator? It is very obnoxious and annoying. Today, both escalators to the E/F platform were going up, meaning I got to carry my suitcase down. About 2/3rds of the way down, I caught up with an elderly man who was not able to go down very quickly. Since I had my suitcase, I was unable to pass him and the whole crowd waited as we slowly went down the stairs. This scenario would not occur if there was an escalator in each direction. I then got R32 3375 on the E and took it to Penn Station. I then took Acela Express 2153 back to Washington. We had trainset 6 (2030/2031). The train was about 15 minutes late into New York. Then, they had a problem with a circuit breaker onboard 2030. When I got up to investigate, I found out I had the same conductor as on 2208 on Saturday. After about 15 minutes, we left and we arrived in Washington about 15 minutes late. A man insited he get off the train at Penn and he was going to take the Regional at 10:40. I feel sorry for him because he waited 40 minutes for that train and it ultimately arrived in Washington 45 minutes late.
I then took Rohr 1192 back home.
At Sheepshead Bay, the D (I forget which one) was just ahead of us and closed up prior to our arrival. I assumed it would be held at Brighton Beach for a connection and the Q relayed at Ocean Parkway. Clearly, this is not the case. We wrong railed and layed up on the inbound express. By this time, the D was on its way to Ocean Parkway and I was on the wrong platform anyway. This arrangement would also effect me later.
I waited for 2708 which I took to Coney Island. We were held at West 8th for the tracks at CI to clear. At Coney Island, where is the BMT lines façade? I could not find it. I walked along Surf Avenue to the aquarium where I caught a D, R68 2612 back to Brighton Beach. Once there, the slant on the outbound express left first and there were no signs alerting me of the fact. Then, I found out there was another student on this train (4374) as well and this time, the setup made it impossible for me to see anything! I got off at Sheepshead Bay and took the next train, 4206, to Atlantic Avenue. I shared the window on this train but I'm tall and looked over the shoulder of the other person easily.
At Atlantic, R62As on the 3 were pulling in just as I got there and I got in the third car, 2109. This car had no AC to speak of. At Nevins, I switched to 2101 which did have it (luckily). I alighted at Hoyt and got lunch.
Afterwards, I found the DeKalb Avenue stop and caught R46 5546 to 9th Street on the R. This car had a sick doorbell. At 9th Street/4th Avenue, I got R46 6192 which was in the station on the F. I rushed to the front (which was newspapered) and off we went. We went somewhat sluggishly thru Smith/9th on the inbound express track. Once past the track workers, we sped up and went thru the express. Bergen Street Lower Level was pretty cool. The station was dimly lit and I could see exit signs at various staircases. I don't know how fast we went or what the signals were like because of the obstructed window. I switched directions at Jay and took R46 5572 down the Culver to Coney. It appeared the inbound F trains were running at a frequency that was higher than 4 TPH (15 minutes). At times the cab door was partially open and closed, but after Church, it was open all the way and I got to glance thru. No R143 on the test track.
At Coney, I changed for the N. An R32 closed up just as I got there. By now it was 2:40 in the afternoon and I wanted to catch a B on the Sea Beach. By the time R68 2856 left and got to 59th, the GO was over. I decided to take the R to 95th Street. An R46, 6184, arrived on the express track. It was switched over to the local and proceeded down 4th Avenue. At 95th, an R46 just pulled out as we arrived, so I decided to try my luck with the buses upstairs. I saw a B63 leaving. About 15 minutes later, the next one came and I took it up 5th Avenue to 60th Street. It was New Flyer C40LF 909. It was a very nice ride. A little nosier than an Orion V/CNG and the small stop requested sign looked odd. Back at the subway, I waited for an N to Coney Island. After an interminable wait, R68 2802 finally came. It was pretty crowded but I made it up to the window. We went express on the local from New Utchret to Coney Island, only stopping at Kings Highway. Between 86th and Coney, I saw 2 sets of Redbirds in the yard and a train of R40 Slants heading inbound. What are the railroad tracks on either side of the Sea Beach at the portal for the subway?
Here is the WMATA Verdict in the case of the Sea Beach versus Brighton:
Brighton wins.
Brighton has a better run for the railfan with its express service with the R40s. Both lines score well in terms of scenery and station design but with no express, Sea Beach can't win.
I took R68A 5050 to Bay Parkway. As we went from CI to Bay 50th, I saw an R32 in the yard signed with a < N > Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach sign. At Bay Parkway, I got R42 4829 which I took all the way into Chambers. I then changed for the IRT. A 5 was in the station but was packed to the brim. I let it go, seeing an R142A about to enter the loop. An R62 came around first which I let pass, as well as some other crowded express trains. When the R142A came around, I got on. It was still signed as a southbound and the interior signs still said "LAST STOP." Within a minute, they were reset and the female voice said the new destination and that the next stop was Canal Street. I liked how the male voice waited for its announcement until we were ready to go.
This was my second R142A ride. This time, I was on car 7361. The car lights are still too bright. Unless the train has a crush load, those halogen lights could blind you. The automated announcements are somewhat annoying after some time. I can't stand the way it says Bleecker Street, Astor Place, Union Square, and Hunter College. It is clearly computerized. Also, the conductor overused the "Please do not block/hold train doors" announcement. It was used as the train left every station from 23rd to 77th, where I got off. In conclusion, the R142A is the best IRT car for commuting. But for railfanning, forget it!
Fascinating itinerary! Those tracks you saw at the Sea Beach tunnel portal are the LIRR freight-only Bay Ridge branch (now serviced by the New York & Atlantic Railway). The tracks end at a car float and there is very little service, but hopefully they will someday connect with a tunnel under New York harbor to either Staten Island or New Jersey, permitting direct freight operations from the south and west into NYC and Long Island.
NOTE TO ALL:
I didn't totally delete the post from part 4. Sorry. It should end where it says I took Rohr 1192 home.
First of all, the reverse GO from this week's is running next week. That is, the southbound F will be running express from Jay to 4th Avenue, running through Bergen lower. (Some F's will be running on the B instead.) The G will be operating split service at Bedford-Nostrand, terminating at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
I rode both yesterday. The lower level of Bergen is pretty neat -- no tile on the walls, incandescent lighting throughout, and standard exit signs pointing to the staircases. I rode through twice -- the second time, the C/R didn't bother announcing that all trains were running express, so some people jumped off and waited for the next train (I grabbed one, so to speak, and told him to stay on board). He also told the passengers, at a number of stations, to "watch the closing doors" rather than to "stand clear of the closing doors." The view of Bergen is better from the side than from the front -- if only the TA would swap equipment just for this GO!
The north section of the G was signed as "G CROSSTOWN" (no destination) until Court Square, where it switched to "_ BEDFORD/NOST" (no route letter). It pulled into the center track at B-N and dumped its passengers on the northbound platform, where a shuttle train ("_ SHUTTLE") pulled in a few minutes later. (There were passengers waiting on the southbound platform, and on my quick duck upstairs I didn't see any signs directing passengers to the northbound side.) It was a four-car train, IINM, but it had a C/R. We wrong-railed the whole way down to H-S -- no signals to worry about!
I'm not sure I understand why split service was necessary. Southbound trains could run into the center track at B-N and continue out on the northbound track, running exactly as the shuttle train did. If that would yield insufficient service north of B-N, either terminate alternate G's at B-N or run alternate G's both ways on the southbound track. (Better still, terminate G's at Bergen upper and have the inbound F stop downstairs.) Why is splitting service at B-N necessary?
Oh, does anybody know if next week's G will also be running on the southbound track?
>>Why is splitting service at B-N necessary?<<
During nights, it wouldn't be. But the TA doesn't like wrong-railing Full lines for one section, especially if a G would have to wait at Bedford Nostrand. I thought they should have sent the G shuttle to Bergen St., since the upper level northbound track wasn't being used at all. Then, they should have allowed a metrocard (or paper) transfer to Coney Island-bound trains.
You can't stop trains at Bergen LL. The TA doesn't allow passengers to get off at poorly lit stations in need of work.
The area behind the metal doors at Bergen on the upper level has been rehabbed! Not only that, there are ads there (early 90s)! As you can tell, I discovered today one of the doors was unlocked...
Couldn't they have done a more complete station remodeling? They don't even have to tile the LL, just string up some decent lighting. Or was there once good lighting, Chris R27-30 said they last used it in 1994 so there may have been...
I saw a barrel yesterday with the above incantation on its side between Smith-9th and the tunnel portal. What's a Hurcol Pot and why does it need dedicated grease?
Err, going out on a limb here, but I think that's a brand
of automatic guard rail greaser.
What's a Hurcol Pot and why does it need dedicated grease?
I don't know; but for some reason I now have the unexplainable, irresistible desire to procure a Hurcol Pot immediately.
Dan
I gave up on pot sophmore year, so I wouldn't know where to find any. Try around NYU though :)
But the REAL question is did you INHALE? :)
According to the sign, the south exit from Queens Plaza is open M-F 5:50am-10:15pm and SSH 5:40am-11:30pm. Why the longer hours on holidays and weekends?
That is when the entrance is open, not when the southern token booth is manned. The reporting time for the clerk on weekdays is 5:50am and he opens the stairway gates (nice guy). I assume that since the booth is not manned on the weekend someone else has to open the gates as well as close them since the entrance closes well after the booth (6pm). This is one of the "part-time" booths on the hit list to close.
Why aren't all entrances that have HEETs open at all times?
There were brochures in the trains on Thursday touting new cars (M7's) scheduled for late 2002 (read: 2004 or so).
Anyone know anything about the new LIRR cars?
www.forgotten-ny.com
All I know is that there made by Bombardier.
Well looking at the new Bombardier product I rode on today (R142) I wasn't impressed at all by this sluggish beast. God I hope the M-7 don't fit that description!
God I hope the M-7 don't fit that description!
If it does the Bombardier is no longer a global leader
God I hope the M-7 don't fit that description!
If it does then Bombardier is no longer a global leader.
The R-142 is not sluggish, it is FASTER and has a much smoother ride than those disgusting Redbitches. Remember when they had to be pulled for going 60 MPH? (you know, a speed that a train is supposed to go) Some of the luddite fools on this board took the oppurtunity to complain.
I agree the R-142's are not sluggish I rode these cars in both directions from Atlantic ave to 34th street found those trains to be quite comfortable and pretty fast also. The Air Conditioning was pretty cold.I think people enjoy these cars especially in these summer months.By the way i know you guys do'nt reconize me i am new on this board glad to met ya.
I was aboard #6321 yesterday southbound on the #2 and we got into the local tracks south of 72nd Street while we were in there the A/C conked out and blew nothing but hot air from that point on. So much for technology. BTW the Redbird I was on northbound earlier in the day was pretty cold for its species. AND the R142A on the #6 (spent over an hour aboard that train) had no problems with the A/C
wayne
Maybe a bit of hard luck hate when that happens. But the new cars will never be perfect in more ways then one,but we must start to get use to them they will be here for along time now. I drive so I don't know when i will enjoy another ride again aboard a train unless I go riding like I did last week.
For a short blurb of information, check out
http://www.transport.bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_1/1_1_5_10.html
Also search through Bombardier's past Press Releases for some more details.
-- Kirk
I notice that they only seat 101-110 people. Most other unilevel commuter cars (NJT/SEPTA) seat up to 128 people. Why so small?
Perhaps the people in Philly and NJ have narrower asses?
"I notice that they only seat 101-110 people. Most other unilevel commuter cars (NJT/SEPTA) seat up to 128 people. Why so small? "
Prehaps to conform to A.D.A. standards. The restroom must be larger to accomdate a wheelchair passenger, plus space for wheel chairs to berth so not to conflict with passenger traffic. The M-1/M-7s have small restrooms with small doors, that will of course change.
Bill "Newkirk"
Woah woah, bathroom? What makes people in New York so special that they can't hold it?
I did some research and all the SEPTA Silverliners can seat 125 people, the Bombardier coaches 131 and the Cab Cars 117. No SEPTA equipment has bathrooms. Now NJT trains have bathrooms and center doors, but alsa I do not as of yet have their seating info. The center door takes the place of 8 seats, but I think it counts as an ADA spot. Also not every NJT coach or MU has a handicapped restroom (as they are encourageing train restrooms be for emergency use only). I would expect the number of LIAR seats to vary up to about 117-120 instead of maxing out at 110.
If Lexcie is reading this get out your NJT book and tell me the seating for the coaches and MU's.
"Woah woah, bathroom? What makes people in New York so special that they can't hold it? "
New York people aren't really so special for restrooms, the M-1/M-3 equpiment has them and so did the MP-54 fleet.
The question is why is SEPTA has no restrooms on their trains. To keep Philadelphia commuters anal retentive ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Please note that an ADA restroom needs a bit more room in that you need a handrail near the toilet, and enough interior space to maneuver a wheelchair.
Hey, Greyhound buses have a bathroom; why not commuter trains?
Hey, Greyhound buses have a bathroom; why not commuter trains?
Greyhound buses are considered long distance and commuter trains are considered short diatance.
[Woah woah, bathroom? What makes people in New York so special that they can't hold it?] ............
I think what makes people in NY (on the LIRR)so special is that they are allow to SWILL beer until rip-roaring drunk. If there were no bathrooms, it's a sure thing they would either piss in the car, or out in between cars. It's also nice to have bathrooms in an emergency.
Spotting Feature: Single Panel Doors
That feature is Optional.
I admit to liking the double-leaf doors better. But that is a matter of style and familiarity; the LIRR bilevel cars have a single-leaf door, and in my opinion look quite handsome. Would I frown if I saw one with a double-leaf door? Maybe. I'm not used to seeing one built that way.
I like the double doors found in the R142 and R142A units. They close shut tight and will NOT open on their own. Also it helps insulate the car better.
Other than Press releases at the Bomb website, nothing. The LIRR mamangement is as secretive about this as the Kremlin about a plane crash.
The brochure did say there are onboard phones. An unnecessary feature, with all the very important people making calls on their cellphones?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bad news for the nose against the glass crowd:
FULL LENGTH CABS!!!
:-(
Well SEPTA cars have full width cabs (vestabule cabs) and they have a very nice Railfan Portal. NJT trains also have this portal, but it is usually covered with a metal plate. I have only encountered the plate partially off once. It was on a corridor line train and WOO WEE what a ride. The SEPTA/NJT portal is even better than the ones on the back of Amtrak trains.
How the heck can people move through the train i.e. people walking forward/backward to reach a short-platform station (i.e. Kew Gdms, Forest Hills &c) or to move away from a car with bad A/C = I wonder if these cabs will be the "knockdown" variety.
wayne
It'll probably be like the R142's, you can only move between a set of four(?)cars.
No, that's because the R142's need a conductor's cab. LIAR trains don't need a conductor's cab. It will probably be like a vestabule cab with the controls de-activated in the unused cabs.
Promo pictures I've seen show a pretty ugly car; square, looks like the R143 at the front end (except it has a bulkhead light) - and the car numbers are going to start with (appropriately enough) 7000 (read: 7001).
wayne
Don't go by the car number in the artist's conception. It's almost always wrong.
David
Has anyone given some thought to a Manhattan Bridge service "kick-off" fantrip?
We could start at 57 St/7 Av, take a Q train over the bridge to Pacific Street, change for a W train out along the West End line to Coney Island. Have lunch (Nathan's, of course), then hop on a Q train for the ride up the Brighton line back to Manhattan.
Then we could talk a walk along the new pedestrian path on the southside of the Manhattan Bridge (if it is open) and be THAT close to the trains.
Thoughts anyone?
I was planning on taking July 23rd off to walk the pedestrian path and videotape the trains on the south side of the bridge ... as wel as the new services .... maybe I can talk "the boss" into a trip on Sunday the 22nd ....
--Mark
It appeared the path was open on Wednesday. I saw someone biking on it from my Q train Wednesday morning.
My kick-off trip will be to attempt to ride the first W out of Astoria until it gets to 36th. I live for the look of confusion.
What will the W's word be, Walter?
W for "why"
As in, "Why not 'T'"?
WAYNE! :o>
Count me in.
How about catching the last D over the bridge? (or maybe the last B if they keep it running until 1 when it becomes the shuttle. It was reported that they did this the last flip)
Can Rocks make trains derail?
If they are large enough.
Didn't it just happen to Amtrak on the way to Boston (or MNRR) a big boulder on the tracks >G
With small balast stones anything is possibly, but if the rock dosen't fall off due to vibrations and if it isn't knocked off by the pilot the trail will probably just crush it. Moving trains can run over purpose built derails and not derail.
Now a pile of rocks built up from the balast stands a much better chance of derailing a train. Don't forget that the easiest, no nonsence way of derailment is to wedge a spike in between a rail joint.
what about a flattened 1 cent coin between a rail joint?
No.
"what about a flattened 1 cent coin between a rail joint?"
I've seen kids at Branford put pennys on the rails after the trolleys pass. No damage or derailment there.
I have a couple of pennies I placed on the railhead at South Amboy,NJ on the old NY & Long Branch. Old Abe Lincoln got that crushing feeling at the mercy of a GG-1 !!!
Those pennies are thin as paper and almost the size of a quarter. I hope you know what a GG-1 is.
Bill "Newkirk"
"With small balast stones anything is possibly"
Not really a problem, I've ridden the LIRR where vandals place ballast stones on the railhead. When the trains hit them you hear the stones bounce off the under chassis.
Don't know if the wheels pulverize the stones or not, but on my experience, the wheels don't leave the railhead.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, what doesn't get knocked or vibrated off is usually crushed, but you never know.
>>> the easiest, no nonsence way of derailment is to wedge a spike in between a rail joint <<<
Gee, Mike, I'm surprised you didn't tell us what sized spike to use and where to buy it, as well as providing an illustration of how to wedge it in place.
Tom
And here's some neat things to do with home heating oil and fertilizer ... but he didn't nor shall I ... you can do a whole lot more damage with a Chrysler 300 left on the rails. :)
Picture a 10 Lb. Sledge Hammer with a 3 foot handle being swung by an agerage size person - the object - one ballast rock. The rock would be expected to be pulverized. Now take that same rock - put it against a 65 ton loco at (say) 90 Ft./sec. I doubt that the train is going anywhere.
Now back to the original question, "Can rocks make trains derail?" The simple answer is it depends on within whos head the rocks are contained. The probability is directly proportional to the determination and inversely proportional to the common sense of the individual.
AH ... but can it derail a D TRAIN? Aha! :)
The only thing that could derail a D train is the curves leaving Dekalb Av. southbound, but you proposed a solution concerning those curves a few weeks ago.
Heh. All it takes is the right propulsion system ... and a bit of optical illusion to convince the geese that the train is still on the ground. (or at least a railhead height above it) :)
-
As long as Chuck Berry or Bo Diddly ain't playing lead ... otherwise that trolley's on the GROUND. :)
ha HA HA.....
Huh? Key of "A-C-E?" Hell, David Peel and his John Lennon fan club made a small FORTUNE outta dat ... 23rd street ... but David won't read this since he's afraid of choochoos. Childhood thang. OH, if ever a writer was bored and wanted to hang out in our cowpasture. OH, the stories ... even our kick in the teeth for NASDAQ when THEY came "a'courtin'" Heh.
Mooooooo! ;*
Not that it really would make a difference to you but it was not a curve that caused a D train to derail leaving DeKalb Ave.
IIRC, that occurred a number of years ago. And yes, I would like to know the real reason. Sorry if I missed a post.
The reason, to the best of my knowledge, has never been posted on Subtalk. The reason for the derailment has been linked to a defective switch point. The switch had been identified during an inspection and the new switch was between the two tracks, waiting for a G.O. later that week - so it could be installed.
How often are tracks inspected? Are switches inspected more often than the rest?
I believe track inspections can vary, depending on location. For example, MTA states that straight track needs replacement, on average, every 18 months; curved track needs replacement as often as every 3 months. I don't know the stats for switches. This maintenance schedule implies that inspections would be required more frequently on curves and switches.
18 months!!! 3 months!!! HA! On real railroads rail is around forever. The NEC has most of its original rail dating from 1968 and the Amtrak Harrisburg line still has segments using PRR 155 pound jointed. Down in Delaware, the Delmarva secondary below Harrington is still using rail that is vintage 1921.
A railroad is required to make an walking inspection on every inch of track bi-weekly. It also has to do a hi-tech inspection at some longer interval. This means bringing in some sort of track geometry car. Down in Delaware they were dooing a geometry test and they were getting so many defects on the 1921 rail that NS stopped the run as basically the whole line was going to get 10 mph'd.
"18 months!!! 3 months!!! HA!"
I was waiting to see who was the most gullible subtalker. Mike - you win, hands down. Perhaps Ron would like to post his source for track replacement schedules. Given that there are over 730 miles of track ...... and all replaced every 18 months - not accounting for curves on a 3 month schedule. Hmmmmmmmm - that comes out to ........... (carry the one) ............ over 40 miles of new track per month. Now if you bothered to think about it, does that even begin to make any sense? I have the NYCT Strategic business Plan for the current year and I have the Maintenance of Way Department's 2001 goals. Care to guess how many miles of track are actually slated for replacement - aside from emergencies?
I would suspect that the straight rail lasts just about forever. It appears that the supports get replaced more often than the rail. This is observations from riding the N/R through the 60th st tunnel when they were replacing the ties.
However, there are some very sharp curves: City Hall N/R, 5th Ave N/R, round from Queensborogh Plaza N, 14th St East Side IRT… I believe that the wear there could mean a replacemment every couple of years to maintain the geometry.
BTW: At least between New York & Trenton, there is a lot of new NEC track. Amtrak has been replacing the old wooden ties with concrete ones and laying new track while it’s being doing it–most likely because of Acela.
John
Gullible? I was just pointing out how you were wrong. With people like Ry-Transit running around one can never be too shure.
TD, I had been hoping that you would have been the one to answer my questions concerning track inspections. I had been wondering how often and how they were done since my days at Tech, which go back almost as far as yours. Were inspections all done then, and are they all done today, manually by walking? Are switches and sharp curves given extra attention? What are these geometries that our fellow Sub-Talkers have referred to in this thread? Sorry if I'm being a nudnick with all these questions.
As to track inspections, I don't have that information handy. since I have only incidental contact with the track people, that information is rarely needed here. However, for Ron and Jersey Mike, in 1998, NYCT replaced 18,010 feet of track. In 1999, the last year I can find figures for, the goal was 18,500 feet of track. This is hardly the 40.5 miles per month suggested by the earlier post.
>>Were inspections all done then, and are they all done today, manually by walking?<<
Well, there are manual walking inspections, but there are also TGC1 and TGC2, the track gemoetry cars that make sure the rails are close enough together (I've also been told that it measures clearance in the tunnels.) Additionally, the Sperry Rail car makes inspections as well, or at least that's what I've been told. I know nothing about the Sperry car.
The 155 lb rail was installed on the Main Line in the 1970's when I worked in Radnor. It supported a lot of long coal trains of 100 ton hoppers and at least one iron ore train per day. Many of these trains had 2 E-44's pulling and 2 E-44's pushing.
It's not a geometry car, more like the ultrasound car (aka the
"Sperry" car), which finds metal flaws. Geometry problems are
almost always because of tie or ballast condition.
The Sperry Cars is what is generally referred to as a track geometry car as it checkes everything (both geometry and rail integrity). I think that the Sperry car now uses X-ray devices.
NO IT IS NOT!!!!
Where do you constantly come up with this crap you spew? The TA owns two track geopetry cars, TG01 and TG02. They are used to measure track grometry - period. The Sperry Rail Service car checks rails for structural defects - not geometry.
In the real rail world the trains that check any part of track are always called track geometry trains. I just got done reading reports of track geometry trains finding rail defects on both the Delmarva and Beesley's Point secondaries.
Mike, the subways are just as much "real rail world" as Amtrak and CSX. The fact that they use specialized equipment designed for mass passenger hauling in an urban environment rather than intercity passengers or freight doesn't make them any less real. If all you're going to do is flame the subways, why do you post on a subway board?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This was a thread dealing with rocks making TRAINS (not-subways) derail.
BTW Subways are trains (duh)!
I think my facts are correct. The TA uses a track geometry car to check track geometry. The LIRR uses a track engineering car to check track geometry. They both use Sperry Rail Service vehicles to check rails for structural defects. These are facts! Now perhaps in Delmarva they don't have a geometry car or they hire Sperry rail Systems and request different services using different equipment. However, I think you'd be better served discussing this matter on "Delmarva-Talk".
Several years ago some kids got convicted of murder for piling up rocks on the NEC and derailing an Amtrak that resulted in the deaths of two people. So I would say that rocks can make a train derail.
They also had rocks in their heads...
Were they little ones or Big ones?
"Were they little ones or Big ones?"
I believe they were all in their late teens!
Rocks can't Grow into adults!
Like many things in life, it depends on how big it is and what
position it is in.
HMMMMMMMMMM...very interesting
Peace,
andee
Nope, I've tried it! :-)
I put a rock in front of a LIRR train, sparks flew and the rock split, nothing major....
Gee, wouldn't that have sucked if it did cause a major derailment?!
That would have been some heavy burden on your shoulders.
Oh well, no harm..no foul.
=)
There was a derailment years ago on the LIRR north of Great Neck. It was snowy and I mused out loud that maybe some kids put snowballs on the rails causing the derailment................Well this the LIRR we're talking about, so you never know !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Snowballs? Thats ghetto, if anything, it would be a log like branch...I remember a long time ago, the Boston-Washington Amtrak train I was on was stuck in CT for an hour because of some branches on track...:-\
Why, Soitenly!!
Nyuk, Nyuk Nyuk!
Actually, the LIRR violated its own rule in operating that train. While it was not snowballs that derailed the train, it was snow that had accumuletad well above the ball of the rail in that area that caused the train to derail.
I don't know about derail, but I've seen rocks RERAIL a train.
I was watching a PBS documentary on the Indian Railways. They were talking about the frequent derailments and the awful state of the railways (after all, it's India).
Low and behold, one of the trucks on a car went off the rail (the ball of the rail was maybe 2 inches off the ground). The train crew ordered everybody off the train. When the train was discharged, the crew then placed rocks in front of the wheels. The train started moving at about 1 mph. The crew then kept flinging rocks underneath the wheels without regard to their personal safety until it rerailed. Then everybody got back on and they continued onwards. They also used an additional device to help rerail the train, but the type of device escapes me right now.
Fascinating stuff.
No no no. It was Michael Pailin's (of Monty Python Fame) trip around the Pacific Ring and it was in Bolivia and his DMU derailed.
Actually, both of you are right... I've seen both shows. I've also seen a show which depicted the same practice on the Paraguayan narrow gauge, rerailing a steam locomotive.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rocks!!! I've personally rerailed streetcars with a switch iron. Have a car (or truck) on out-of-gauge street trackage and you can use a switch iron to get the wheels to follow it. Move the car v-e-r-y slowly and keep moving the switch iron until the car gets back to in-gauge track. It's not fast, but it gets the job done.
The guys down on the SJRR use tie plates.
My office-mate arrived here to work 45 min. late because of trouble on the uptown Lex. Possibly a derailment. Trains wrong-railing back to 14th Street. People stuck on trains in tunnels. A mess. Hmmm...will some R-142A's make their first visit to the shop? Anybody know anything concrete, or was it not as bad as she said?
I don't know about a derailment but the Grand Central Lexington line platforms had a strong smoke oror around 10am this morning.
That was just SUBWAYSURF cutting the cheese...
BMTman
Whatever the alleged problem was, it did not involve any car equipment. If there was a problem it was related to track or signal.
nope not me.....not there.....maybe at 34th/6th IND.
Peace,
ANDEE
The T/O on that Uptown No.4 train really screwed up the AM Rush Hour on the Lex Line. Heres what happened in order.
08:54AM The T/O on the Uptown No.4 radios that as he left 14 Street he accidently droped the Deadman meaning he put the train in Emergency. Control orders him to charge up and proceed on signals.
08:56AM The Uptown No.4 train still not moving and Grand Central wants to know why.
08:59AM The T/O said he wanted to investigate the roadbed to make sure nothing else tripped the train and now Control is going nuts and calls up for a T.S.S's in the area of 14 St. to respond.
09:03AM The T/O reports a stop arm up under 2nd car and control tells the T/O to step on it ofcause there was no clearance so the T/O is ordered to move the train up and refuses.
09:10AM order is restored 2 T.S.S's arrive and they found no stop arm up under the train. This left a big mess with the NO.4,5,6 trains sharing the local track from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central. The No.6 got back up to Astor Place Southbound and the Uptown No.4,5 trains back up into Brooklyn.
Also because of this I made a new record taken 1HR and 20 Minutes to get from Brooklyn Bridge to Pelham.
Also just to clear something up No train wrong railed and there where trains spending time between station to to Extreme conjestion with all No.4,5,6 trains on the same track runnning a tight rush hour Schedule. Remember the No.4,5 run 2 Minutes apart and the No.6 every 2 to 3 Minutes at that hour so put it all together it is double trouble.
That T/O should be reprimanded.
Maybe he/she just had to... you know...
answer the call of nature... ???
how many r142 cars are the #2 suppose to have to get some r62's on the 7. i think by now the 2 should have now at least like 7 sets,
or am i completely lost in this
I would venture a guess and say that there are about 8-10 sets of R142s available for the #2 (at least what I can gather passing the Unionport Yard) but I think only a couple of sets are actually running due to the mechanical problems that the Bombardier cars are having.
The R142 problems are fixed. One train a week will enter service on the 2 and 6.
This puts you in the Ry-Trans-It / Q46 Nova Catagory! Figure that one out!
Regards,
T.Lo
There's a Daily News article, I have the actual paper and never use the web site so you'll have to find it yourself. The gist is:
6:30AM-9:30AM, 4 E trains will run express from 179th to Manhattan.
It does not mention the evening rush, but that probably has a similar schedule. I know it's crap, but it's something that gets put on the map starting November 11th. Maybe people will clamor for more frequent service and a few Es will get pulled off Archer ave.
I had said they'd probably do this numerous times in previous posts, told ya so!!!
I don't see where the article specifically says that these E's will be express on Hillside Ave.
You're right, Hillside express service is not mentioned, and we'll have to see if it will run express or local.
However, what I found most interesting is the metrocard transfer to the 4,5,6 and N,R at 63rd and Lex. Funny you didn't mention that (or maybe it's already been mentioned in the past?)
Imagine the confusion at Union Turnpike with an E on both tracks? Or signage to support such? If they run them Queensbound, how about the signage at Continental? E to Jamaica Center, all times, express 7:30 AM - 7:30 PM weekdays, E rush hours also to 179st via local, F to 179st all times via local, Nights all trains on opposite track.
Simpler to think: Express or F--kin' local.
I'll wager you a $2 bill that it will be a through express.
Why complicate things with running 4 E's. Why not run a few F's from 179th express to Manhattan? I think a better idea would be to split the F line in the AM (8 locals, 6 expresses) leaving 179th.
I think it's to get Hillside ave-ers to 53st and the Plaza (as well as the G). I agree, sending Es does not make much sense. Though maybe the solid wall of R-46 Fs will crumble, if they do run to 179 in the afternoon they have to become something to get back down, lest 4 trainsets sit in the layup collecting dust.
The whole fricken thing is absurd. Just run the V from 179th St during rush hours as the Hillside local, and run the F express. The same in the reverse. That way E doesn't have to wait for the F to switch to the local tracks before 75th.
Frank D
The riders won't approve of one line serving as a local east of Forest Hills if that line runs local west of Forest Hills. It was tried in 1988 and it was forcibly abandoned in 1992.
There seems to be no winning in this current or proposed situation!! From what I remember, there were 2 major problems during 1988-92 with the F/R Hillside service.
1. The R trains took too long to come from Brooklyn which caused delays from 179 St. I remember reading that passengers were complaining that the R's going into Manhattan were too slow and crowded (DUH!!!), and they took too long to come.
2. Hillside passengers wanted direct express service into Manhattan, which the local station Hillside passengers had none of with the R.
From what I remember, the F Hillside local at all times was a 6-month trial period. That was almost 9 years ago!!!
Tony
Let's not rejoice too much! You are talking about only 4 trains during the entire AM rush. What kind of headway is THAT! During the WillyB closure, 4 AM rush hour E trains did come out of 179 St,. but they ran LITE and went into service at Union Tpke. In the evening rush, all E trains went to Parsons/Archer. The 4 trains were staged on layup tracks at 169 ST. during the late PM/midnite hours. What will the intervals actually be and will there be PM service to 179 St.? Patience fellas! Something totally lacking on this board! When the work programs come out for the fall pick (around August) and the t/o & c/r's who contribute to this board see them, the facts will be reported on SubTalk!
It's me, Bill from Maspeth!!! Some way to treat THE senior road man on the E line! This should be a money making venture for me and all I've received is a lot of grief! The Daily News published my picture without my permission and did not even pay me a residual! At least they should offer me a free 1 year subscription. Should I call Jacoby & Meyers for help? Only as long as the legal fees are less than what is settled for! Even the guys at Jamaica Center on the E & J lines are cheap! I offered to autograph copies of my picture for the reasonable price of $2.00 and not one customer! Geez, it costs a hell of a lot more to get a ball or bat signed at a baseball show, and furthermore.......well I can't talk anymore, I'm so upset right now........
Only four E trains? I've wanted Hillside Express for a long time, but there's got to be a better way.
Oh well, better than nothing. It does show they were listening at the hearing. This was the second most frequent issue after the cutback of the G.
:-) Andrew
What will they come up with next? I hope that they dicover that the G should not get cut back to Court Square, but continue on into Queens like it always has. Maybe if they went and rode the trains and spoke to the riding public, but that would make sense, so they did not do it.
I hate to say this, but most straphangers are ignorant, lazy imbeciles. You can't always consult them on every operational detail. No legitimate reason to run the G past Court Sq. exists other than to eliminate a longer walking transfer from the G to MAnhattan bound trains which would have to be made with the cut backed service.
Oh, they were listening, and they are bringing back the (G) to Forest Hills on off hours. It's the best they could do with the limited rolling stock they have.
:) Andrew
Reminder: this is NOT a net incrase in service. 3 more E's per hour replace 3 F's per hour as the ratio goes from 18:12 to 15:15, because the flawed terminal design at Parsons can't handle 15 TPH (although Times Square on the Flushing handles 27 TPH). The east of Continental local stops (and 2nd Ave to Coney Island) will lose 3 TPH.
At the Flatbush Avenue station, on the lefthand track as you enter from the north, there are two stop signs, that aren't more than 5 feet away from each other. One says "STOP R142 only," and the other one says "STOP All equipment except R142." What's the point of having a stop for R142 and one for non-R142 equipment?
The R142's are shorter?
The R-142s are not shorter.
If you put the corner post of the R142 cab at the "All equipment but R142" stop (which is where the stop marker should go), the car-borne triping device is about 1" to 1/2" away from the fixed stop arm at the block. The slightest misjudgement by the TO ends up putting the train into emergency. The answer was to slightly adjust the stop marker for the R142.
So why not have all trains stop at the R-142 marker? There's usually well over five feet of leeway in a station. (Remember, only the doors really need to platform. The piece of the first car in front of the first door and the piece of the last car behind the last door can dangle out of the station perfectly safely.)
The T/O's window at that end is still in the tunnel. Undesirable.
Why? What difference does it make?
I don't know. That is why I left it with an ambiguous word. It was the only reason I could think of, otherwise they would have moved the regular stop marker back.
Maybe it was also to allow people a shorter walk if they had to walk around the tracks?
How easy would it be to get the cars reprogrammed? Since the W train is coming soon, and more transfers will be available at the Canal Street station on the 6 line (J, M, N, Q, R, and W), not to mention 14th Street and Times Square, how easy would it be to add Q and W in the correct place in the list of transfers? Did the guy who says the transfers have to speak every letter and number in the recording, or does he have to come back just to say V and W?
Hey, I just was about to post that same question?
Hey, I just was about to post that same question?
You're not sure?
The announcers are pre-recorded to say nearly every letter and number. They just have to be pieced together. That's why you might find the announcements choppy sometimes.
I know the R-142As call the S 42nd Street the Shuttle to Times Square (and on the west side it would be Shuttle to Grand Central). What is the Franklin Avenue Shuttle? The Shuttle to Franklin Avenue and Prospect Park or just the S train?
"Transfer is available to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle."
What about the strip maps? How do they change those for the changes in transfers at Union Square, Canal, Bleeker, and 59th next month and 51st in November?
What about Atlantic and Times Square?
There, too. I was thinking only of the #6. Single tracked mind (lol).
14th? Queensboro Plaza? 74th-Roosevelt (in November)?
Yes, forgot 14th.
As for the 7, I thought about it, but deliberately excluded it since the R-142s won't be running there any time soon.
Oh! Somehow I thought this subthread had drifted off the topic in the subject line and was discussing the strip maps on all (well, most) IRT cars, not just the R-142/142A.
Bleecker. Note spelling. I point this out only because NYCDOT made the same mistake (look at the street signs) and I'd rather it didn't proliferate further.
NYCDOT fixed the signs about two weeks after the goofs were installed.
Mark
I'm glad I got a picture in time, then!
And I -wish- I got a picture in time. I saw them the day they were installed and made a mental note to CALL-DOT and bring a camera by the next day, but then got sidetracked and forgot about it until I heard it on the news two days later. Have you scanned yours yet?
Mark
Haven't scanned it yet, but I will put it up on a web page at some point.
We've heard alot with AC motors being the latest craze, but they were also the first big electric RR craze. The only differance being the use of synchronous AC motors instead of asynchronous AC motors.
I was wondering how a synchronous AC motor compares with either a DC motor and the new asynchronous AC motors and why nobody uses them any more.
Asyncronous AC motors are used in Skoda low floor trams and are used in the New Lirr M7. The rest I don't know .
Synchronous motors are not suitable for railway traction.
The complement of a synchronous motor is not called an
asynchronous motor, it is called an induction motor.
In a synchronous motor, a pair of slip rings are required to excite
the rotor. The motor only generates usable torque at the synchronous
speed. It is very difficult to use it for variable-speed
applications. Synch motors were used mostly for motor-generators
or rotary converters such as were found in old substations.
An induction motor does not require slip rings, brushes or any
other electrical path between the stationary part of the motor
and the rotor. The rotor current is induced from the stator by
transformer action, hence the name. This is what makes them ideal
for traction applications: no brush maintenance.
DC motors require both brushes and a commutator. Very maintenance-
intensive. A universal motor works on DC and low-frequency AC,
such as 25 cy.
I believe that all early AC electrics (PRR, NH and RDG) used Synchronous motors. I have also heard they described as Universal motors? Care to shed and light?
The early single-phase high-voltage systems used universal
motors with either resistor dividers or tapped transformers.
These were all 25 cy installations and they used universal
motors, not synchronous motors. At low frequencies, an
ordinary series-wound DC motor will function OK, since both
the field and armature current are oscillating in phase.
What made a universal motor special was the addition of insulating
laminations in the field pole pieces and in the armature spider,
otherwise the AC induces eddy currents that heat up the motor
and waste power. As it was, universal motors were slightly less
efficient on AC than DC, which is why when mercury arc
rectifiers became available, they were used instead. Now we're
getting into Phil Nasadowksi's zone so maybe he'll jump in here.
Some European systems used 3-phase AC with induction motors
way back, near the turn of the century. They used either 3 overhead
wires or 2 wires and the rail as the third phase. Since variable-
frequency drive wasn't even the wet dream of the fantasy of the
most far-out EE at the time, they used pole-changing and were
fairly rough, from what I've read.
Mercury arcs were origionally tested in the teens by the PRR, but they never really went anywhere with the idea. The LIRR used them in substations, as did the later Lacawanna 3kv system. In steady operation, these things worked great, as they could be provided with cooling (water, pump, radiator, fan - like a car), and didn't shake and roll and bounce. Part of the trouble was that vacuum tube technology was in it's infancy in the 20's, and even early 30's.
By the end of WWII, ignitrons were developed to a great degree. Origionally used for welding, they could switch on great currents at high voltages. The bonus was that they could turn on at any point in the positive portion of the ACsine wave on cue. This allows one to "chop" the sine wave up (but only lop the front part off - once on, an ignitron won't turn off until the voltage reverses through it. The operation is almost identical to an SCR). Filter it with a choke and a capacitor, and you get a variable DC, from 0 to maximum voltage.
This, of course, requires a lot of electronics, and practical implementation had to wait until the solid state era.
The New Haven tried this first on MUs, with the washboards. Early technology required water cooling, a complicated temperature regulation system (too hot, it burns out, too cold it'll misfire and self destruct, way too cold, the water freezes), and probbably changed voltage taps, as opposed to fireing angle.
GE got good with this idea in the 60's, and the Silverliners had air blast cooled tubes (2) and a solid state rectifier panel (I'm not sure the exact funcion of this, but it was a feature for a long time on GE's stuff). Early air blast tubes had what amounted to space heaters in the cooling ducts for cold weather, later ones had anode heaters. Note that ignitrons don't have a heater in the traditional vacuum tube sense, as they are "cold cathode" devices)
Basically, an ignitron consists of a "pool" cathode - a small puddle of mercury. dipped into this is an "ignitor" made of some material (I'm not sure what). Above this, at some space, and not in contact with the mercury, is an anode, which was graphite in some types. This is all in a glass bulb, which may be a glass/metal/ceramic type, or whatever. There is a partial vacuum. the tube is biased the way an ordinary diode would be. When energized, nothing happens until a fireing pulse is sent to the ignitior, which draws an arc, and starts conduction to the anode. If the flow of current reverses, the conduction stops. The Silverliners, at start, fire right before the point where the current reverses, and slowly advance to fireing right as the current goes positive. if the tube is fired at the wrong time, it can be dammaged. Also, if it's tilted too much, or too cold, it will be dammaged. The anode heat serves to boil and condensed mercury off the anode.
Needless to say, once SCRs got to the point where they could handle the voltages, currents, and inductive effects of the motor, they became the preferred system. The SCR is what the AEM-7 uses.
Anyway, converting AC into (effectively) any voltage DC, is a really nice thing.
I'm not sure how the locomotives did it, though I believe they all used water cooled tubes.
As for asnyc motors, actually, I believe Alstom used to make AC traction locos with them until recently. With the advent of GTO and IGBT devices, it's no problem making AC from DC at any voltage or frequency desired. I'm not really up to speed on inverter technology, but I believe it involved pulse width modulation and operates the devices at either on or off states, where Ohm's law says they're going to make the least amount of heat.
I'm not really up to speed on inverter technology...
Can you answer one basic question anyway? Is this the same inverter technology that is being used in microwave ovens the past couple of years (where 80% power means just that, rather than 100% power 80% of the time)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting about Microwave ovens ... they all use a magnetron which runs on DC supplied by a simple rectifier whereas the "computer" inside merely determines how much time DC is applied to the "cathode" and how much time it ISN'T (filament on the whole time) ... not exactly nuclear brain science since the "effect" was determined by an engineer who built radar installations making note that when he was in front of the dish, a chocolate bar melted in his pocket protector (in case you wonder why engineers (electrical, not transit) wear those damned things. :)
My apologies, forgot to mention the "80%" in the previous reply. Actually, the DC available from a single pole rectifier (as opposed to a "bridge rectifier") is 0.707 of the applied AC votage. For example, if 100 volts was supplied, the DC output of a simple rectified would be 70.7 volts (assuming electrolytic filtering was good) whereas a "bridge rectifier" configuration would result in 1.414 times the applied AC voltage or 141 volts from 100 AC applied ... so the 80 is actually an optimistic guesstimate but we'll call it "close."
But them's how microwave ovens go which is why the applied voltage to the rectifier is up there around the territory of 1 kilovolt (1000 DC) or thereabouts depending on what a specific tube likes for the typical 750 Watt cooking ... chocolate bars melt. Pray for the quality of them RF seals since a "leaky" Microwave oven at 850 MHz can really screw up UHF TV reception and cellular phones ... they operate "up there" too.
Actually you have the sqrt(2) upside down. If you put in 100
volts ac RMS, that translates to an amplitude of 141.4 volts,
and that's what you'd get DC, half-wave or full-wave, assuming
the filtering were perfect, because the perfect filter capacitor
effectively holds the peaks. Without a rectifier, the DC value
of the output is related to the amplitude by a factor that includes
pi, but I'd have to do the integral to tell you the number. It is
larger for full-wave.
Not to argue, but this is one you can confirm pretty much anywhere where "power supplies" are mentioned ... "half wave" rectifier conducts only half of the cycle depending on "diode polarity" so it will be (for 100 ac applied) 70.7 volts ... if you use a "bridge rectifier" of four diodes (or a split winding transformer and two diodes) then it would be 141.4 volts ... and that would be the RMS output before filtering ... did this kinda stuff for years myself.
Always willing to stand aside when I'm not sure of facts, but this one is right. Sorry about that ...
I guess I could have stated that more clearly when I mentioned
capacitors. When using a capacitor as the output filter, the
_unloaded_, or open-circuit voltage of the supply will rise up
to the peak rectified voltage, which is sqrt(2)*Vrms. As the load
current rises with respect to the rating of the AC source (e.g.
the secondary of the transformer), the voltage drops. This is
for full or half wave. The advantage of full-wave is that the ripple
is cut in half, therefore the filter cap can be smaller.
If there is no filtering at all, then the DC value of the rectified
output of a full-wave is indeed twice that of half-wave. However,
neither is related to the RMS voltage by a mere sqrt(2) factor.
In addition (actually multiplication) to this, there is a 1/pi factor
for half-wave or 2/pi for full-wave. To compute the DC value of
the rectified waveform, take the integral from 0 to 2pi of sin(w) dw
and then divide by 2pi.
Yep ... you've got it ... where it all came apart at the seams was the magic word "RMS" ... barumpum. :)
Apologies again ... tired, need sleep ... the .707 and 1.414 are the rectifier outputs only with nothing "downstream" ... charge pumping weirdifies that nice solid science depending on what's downstream from the rectfiers. Saturated core transformers, swinging chokes in series with lytics and other additions only complicate things which is why stats just make me glaze over. Even in science, nothing is absolute. Numbers, after all, are derived by humankind to fit the observations. :)
To compute the DC value of the rectified waveform, take the integral from 0 to 2pi of sin(w) dw and then divide by 2pi.
That value is 0.
You misstated the function for a rectified waveform. Its value should be: sin(w) for 0 <= w <= pi, sin(w-pi) for pi <= w <= 2pi.
The value of the integral for this function is 4 over the range (0, 2pi).
However, neither is related to the RMS voltage by a mere sqrt(2) factor. In addition (actually multiplication) to this, there is a 1/pi factor for half-wave or 2/pi for full-wave.
There is no factor of pi per se. The dc component for any periodic waveform is the average value of that waveform over the period. This is equal to the integral over the period divided by the period.
You have chosen to use 2pi as this period. Other formulations use 1 or T as the period. The rectified waveform would be described by: sin(2*pi*w) or sin(2*pi*w/T) for the range (0,1/2) or (0,T/2) respectively. The pi factors would be introduced by the value of the integral for these functions.
There is no factor of pi per se. The dc component for any periodic waveform is the average value of that waveform
over the period. This is equal to the integral over the period divided by the period.
You have chosen to use 2pi as this period. Other formulations use 1 or T as the period. The rectified waveform
would be described by: sin(2*pi*w) or sin(2*pi*w/T) for the range (0,1/2) or (0,T/2) respectively. The pi factors
would be introduced by the value of the integral for these functions.
What difference does it make how you write it? You integrate over
one or more complete periods. The answer is the same and there is
a pi in it so long as it is sine that is being rectified.
As the load current rises with respect to the rating of the AC source (e.g. the secondary of the transformer), the voltage drops. This is for full or half wave.
It is also true for a non-rectified load. It is due to the source series resistance.
The advantage of full-wave is that the ripple is cut in half, therefore the filter cap can be smaller.
The unfiltered ripple for a full-wave and half-wave are the same. The advantage for a full-wave rectifier is that its fundamental frequency is twice that for a half-wave rectifier.
What did the electrified railroads out west ( the now defunct Milwaukee Road - home of the fabled bi-polar electrics- and the Great Northern ) use?
The MWK uses 3000 VDC trains and the GN used 25hz AC just like the PRR although I think they had all AC-DC motor-generator equipped locos.
I thought that the rails under catenary out west were all DC. So the Bipolar electrics were AC? Now picture this, a GG-1 and a Bi-polar electric both going down the Northeast Corridor line at full speed. How many out there would go crazy for a photo op like that!
Mike I'dd pay to see that,right at Bowie interlocking
Sorry Doc I got mixed up good post
Bi-polars were MWL and thus 3000 VDC. The GN used AC for it's Cascades tunnel operation with it's big W class electrics and the Z class which became the PRR FF-2's in 1957. The other AC operation was the Virginian Railroad out in Western Virginia and Eastern West Virginia. They also used 25Hz at 11Kv.
Well, that clears up that. Any chance of another line in the USA going under catenary anytime in the forseeable future? I know about the old saw about electrics going obsolete because of their longevity, but well, they are reliable. Any ideas?
The only new system you might see installed is in San Fransisco for a center city commuter tunnel.
The redbirds are being prepared to be scrapped. A few cars have been moved to 207th in preparation. The windows are being knocked out, the wiring, piping and trucks are being removed as well as the doors. Supposidly, they are building a dock on the harlem River by I think 55 or 56 to easily load the cars onto barges. This info is from a friend who is doing the transfering of the redbirds from their former home to 207th Street.e
You forget to mention that rollsigns are also being removed...hint, hint...
BMTman
The TA ought to open up a super market sized store to sell every interior appointment (seats, signs, straps, lights, etc).
is this rumor or inunendo? (or however you spell that dammed word) also where are the photographs of this please?( thank you )..
also does this add to the already too high "" rail car shortage "" & or are they being replaced by ACTUAL IN SERVICE R-142s
( scrap ready of cource ) geeeeeezz !! ..... Man they are so dammed UGLY !!! .....................ugh !!!!
I got to get SOUTH FERRY ON THIS RIGHT AWAY !!!.....he he he he !!
YAWN...............
what in the hell is that supposed to mean ?? anyway this fall i wll be shooting redbirds again !! WOOOOPPPEEEE!!!
if any are left
:)
Yep, they are going to Delaware to become a coral reef? Instead of Redbirds they will be Seabirds. A watery death, but it's time. The Redbirds are leaving, at a quick pace to boot.
They won't become coral reefs, since Redbirds are not made of coral!
Why is it that some people think the only reefs are coral reefs, That those two words always go together (like redbirds and crap)?
Why is it that some people think the only reefs are coral reefs, That those two words always go together (like r-142s' and crap)?
They won't become coral reefs, since r-142s are not made of coral! ???
Very Funny----The R142s are good cars and so WERE the redbirds, but now they are rusted out and falling apart, while the 142s are new , have functioning a/c, and look reasonably good
Time to cue up "Bye Bye (Red)Birdie".:-)
???
Could anyone tell me when does a train destined for scrap make its last trip under power? On its last revenue run? On the trip to 207th? Might they get moved around the scrap yard a bit waiting their turn before beign stripped?
Just curious.
At 207 St, it is the trip into the main shop, where the cars are detrucked, and stripped. Scrap trucks are put onto the cars, shoe beams without contact shoes are installed and the car is put back into the yard. However, back in the 1980s when thousands of cars were scrapped in short time, it was not uncommon for a scrap car to take power into South Brooklyn Territory. While working transfers, I have escorted R10s into 36 Street, which after leaving third rail onto Cross harbor, still had enough air and battery to open and close side doors. The TA does not have any scrap yards on its property. Contractors do the actual scrapping of cars. Linden Yard was once used as an actual scrap yard, I guess because of it close proximity to Gershows.
Hello, there. Does anyone happen to have the Last Trip Times for the "L", leaving Rock Pky and 8th Ave To Rock Pkway, for tonight? Thanks.
I was riding my Bike by the Queens Village station this morning aroun 9:15. I looked up at the station because i could have sworn i heard the sound of a DE30. Sure enuf not only did i hear it and see it, but it was slowing down, it comes to a full stop at Queens Village, opens the doors on the Bi Levels and people board, and sure enuf it takes off and leaves! I guess Engineers got a General Order to make all stops on the Main line. Funny, i never thought i would say that about the Long island Railroad! Usually when i say All local stops i refer to the subway!
BY THE WAY, RUMOR AMONG ENGINEERS IS THERE HAS BEEN A SLOW ORDER GIVEN BETWEEN HSF STOP AND BELLEROSE! (HSF IS HILLSIDE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW)
Hmmm, have I started a trend here?
BTW F Train, next time you're on AIM, IM me. I got my Jamaica photos back.
.
Yup I rode on an OB train through there just a few days ago and it was slower than usual. We were sent down the eastbound express track.
As far as an OB train making local stops along the main line wow never heard of that before. Maybe the usual train broke down so they decided to board passengers. The slow orders are due to track closures and workers in the area, since concrete ties are being put in between Bellerose and Jamaica.
How slow was slow, John? How fast do you normally go? Ken Bauer must be a real bastard! How can he okay Oyster Bay trains to make local stops before he consulted with you? I'd send him a really stern note.
I was on a Manhattan bound J then I transfered to a Manhattan bound A. A passenger told me "Ur doing alot of Transitalk over there" I was like yeah, i know alot about the subway. Anyway i mention this website and he was like yeah i go there all the time. I ask him does he know the one that posts called E to JAMAICA CENTER? He goes yeah, I go thats me! Anywayz this subtalker i believe his handle is R46 5502.
Hey whats up!!!!!!
Sea Beach celebrates it's 86th birthday today!
Of course, everyone here knows June 22, 1915 as the start date of service via West End Depot, with new third rail and high level platforms, Sea Beach, 4th Avenue, Manhattan bridge and Chambers Street.
OOOps! I thought you meant Sea Beach Fred was 86 today!!!
My bad...
BMTman
.
LOL. I thought for sure that Fred would make the big announcement himself.
Here is the Washington Post story about Metro's decision to order CAF to shut down the assembly of CAF cars because Metro is unhappy about the quality of CAF cars.
It seems a similar story to the R142 cars.
Chaohwa
Also, they have started to send Rohr and Breda cars for their midlife rehab...
So we aren't the only system to have problems breaking in equipment.
Note, however, the different tone of the Metrorail comments about their lemons. MTA denies, denies, denies. Metrorail says a problem is a problem.
Why is the orange S going to terminate at Broadway Lafayette instead of running all the way down to Grand Street? Also, wouldn't it be better if the B and D trains terminate at Grand Street instead of 34th and make the orange S terminate at 34th?
If the S terminates at 34th and the B/D go thru, it will force the B/D to run local, something that wouldn't be a good idea. Plus, they decided to terminate the S at B'way Lafayette because the nearest crossover is at W4th. So, the B/D can't terminate there at all (headways too close) and they don't want to do the S there. So, they broke it up into 2 shuttles.
From 86-88,one shuttle handled both services. However, those trains terminated at 57th St, and ran on 12-15 minute headways, something unacceptable today with all the new passangers now usinf 63rd. St.
Those shuttles used the loudest cars I ever rode (flat-wheeled R27's based out of ENY, one step short of the scrapper's torch).
And also the filthiest...............
That too. Those 6 car trains had more garbage than most trains of 10 cars.
Why not extend the Q to 63rd (via the connection from 7th) and have only occasional shuttle service between 57th-6th (or Queensbridge) and Grand?
Currently there is one Q service to Queensbridge, you want to send two? That's double the equipment neccessary. Remember, it's either both or none at 57/7th.
They could turn one Q at 42nd and switch the other local with the W and back express at 57/7th, but that would create a 4-lines-one-track situation through 42nd and 49th(bad idea).
Currently there is one Q service to Queensbridge, you want to send two? That's double the equipment neccessary. Remember, it's either both or none at 57/7th.
Good point.
One option is to run one service through to Queens and terminate the other at Lex, behind the wall. (Either remove the wall on the upper level so passengers can get on and off there or dump passengers at 57th and run light to Lex and back.)
The problem with that is that trains relaying behind the wall would have to wrong-rail against the trains to/from queens. The last crossover is just north of 57th, if they cross over to the southbound and relay at the upper level they would be wrong-railing against stuff leaving lex/63rd. If they stay straight and use the upper level, they would wrong-rail against stuff leaving 57/7th.
Oh, you're right. Timed properly, though, I don't think the wrong-railing would be much of a problem.
Not that this is terribly relevant in the real world. The TA has decided on its routes, and of the changes I'd like to see, this one is far from the top of my list.
Look at the track maps for the area.
No crossover exists north of Grand St, so it can't be used as a normal terminal.
what's up with the 'v' service that was to start w/the bridge flip-flop? ...no mention of it in the reroute brochure. is it suppose to start at some later date, or is it off the table?
The brochure is set out to get passengers to adapt to the immediate July changes. The plan is probably to set out another brochure in October before the opening of the connector and the plan would be this:
Queensbridge-Bway Lafayette shuttle eliminated, F would go to 63rd, V would come from 53rd make all stops down 6th Ave with F and terminate at 2nd Ave, Grand St shuttle remains in place.
I see... I was just under the impression they'd do all the changes in one swoop.
Problem is, the 63rd St Tunnel won't be completely ready for regular service until November. But wasn't it supposed to be finished in August?
I thought they were done with 63rd st. tube? what more needs to be done (besides lirr on the lower level, which is a whole other thing)?
Perhaps it has more to do with the 53rd st. tube work - they've been doing something in there for months now. does anyone know what is going on in there, or any details behind the venilation thing they're building on roosevelt island? (what i've heard is they're building some sort of ventilation chamber there, with the above ground portion built inside the old strecker lab building of city hospital (RIP). The outside of the lab building is being cosmetically restored and looks pretty damn good. you'd never guess the MTA had a vent in there (if that's indeed what they're up to).
V Service begins on November 11. Last night I finally went through the 63rd St. connection (by train). Nice smooth ride. BTW: I see they've put up new punches at Roosevelt Ave. It looks like a McDonalds Menue with all the choices:
( ) 63rd Street
( ) 53rd Street Stillwell
( ) 53rd Street WTC
( ) 60th Street
( ) G Crosstown
( ) D5 track
Should they not have split the 63rd St routing to 63/6 and 63/7 like the 53rd St routing?
I had suggested (some time ago) dual routes for the F & R. An F (circle) through 53rd St and an F (Diamond) through 63rd St. Similarly, an R (Circle) through 60th St. and an R (diamond) through 63rd St. My feeling was that this would have met the original objectives of the 63rd St. connector with additional benifits.
Reduced congestion through the Queens Plaza Bottleneck.
More availability in the 53rd St tubes.
More availability through the 60th St tubes.
Increased flexibility.
Both 6th Avenue & Broadway service through 63rd St.
No additional confusion of a "new' and unnecessary subway 'line'.
The drawback, of course would be that with a remote tower, there would be a new bottleneck at 36th St on the Queens Blvd. line because everything will be controlled from QBP master tower and that's going to be 'one busy little place'.
The drawback, of course would be that with a remote tower, there would be a new bottleneck at 36th St on the Queens Blvd. line because everything will be controlled from QBP master tower and that's going to be 'one busy little place'.
I rode the 63rd St Connector a few weekends ago, when the F was routed though the BMT to Herald Sq. It took almost 1 minute from the time the operator punched the button at 36th St for the signal to clear. There will be a lot of problems, if they don't get this time down to under 10 seconds.
I rode it at about 2:30 AM with the same delay at 36th Street. That's why I feel that trouble will loom. I've seen the QBP master tower and I feel that it's just got too much activity.
I rode it at about 2:30 AM with the same delay at 36th Street.
I don't know, if everything is operational yet. Had I thought it were, I would have raised this point a couple of weeks ago. I can't believe the TA could come up with or accept such an inadequate design, so I'll hold my tongue.
I've seen the QBP master tower and I feel that it's just got too much activity.
You will have to quantify that a little. At 2:30 AM they've got 20 minute headways. I can't conceive of an inadequate staffing level to generate 1 minute delays with these headways. On the other hand, projected rush hour service levels of 80 tph on Queens Blvd, 30 tph on Flushing and 40 tph on Astoria should prove interesting. I'd assume that there is some index for how many tph a single tower man should be able to handle on a single switch. I'd assume they would provide adequate staffing to meet demand.
I was and still am critical of the QBP master tower design. They used 70 year old technology, when the entire operation could be automated at less cost using current technology.
Gee, you should have been with us in School Car on Thursday. We punched at B'way, called QBP Tower as we approached 36 St, stopped in the station, punched again and...still got the wrong lineup. We had to call again to get the correct lineup for the Connector. Time elapsed: about 4 minutes.
I had suggested (some time ago) dual routes for the F & R. An F (circle) through 53rd St and an F (Diamond) through 63rd St. Similarly, an R (Circle) through 60th St. and an R (diamond) through 63rd St. My feeling was that this would have met the original objectives of the 63rd St. connector with additional benifits.
Reduced congestion through the Queens Plaza Bottleneck.
More availability in the 53rd St tubes.
More availability through the 60th St tubes.
Increased flexibility.
Both 6th Avenue & Broadway service through 63rd St.
No additional confusion of a "new' and unnecessary subway 'line'.
The drawback, of course would be that with a remote tower, there would be a new bottleneck at 36th St on the Queens Blvd. line because everything will be controlled from QBP master tower and that's going to be 'one busy little place'.
There is a punchbox with those 2 63rd. St choices at 21 St. Queensbridge.
While going to the R40 railfan window(Q train) I saw a B train pass thru Brighton Beach local track going to CI. I took a pic of it with my dig cam. 2 TO's next to me was wondering why the B train come thru Brighton. The last car have mta orange vest guys and the roll said not in service.
Not in service, using the Brighton Express tracks to get to the yard faster then local or express on the B?
School cars are running this week. That had to have been one of them.
My class is past Road Operations (where all of us take turns operating an out of service train), and into Road Posting, and the next group (TB21-TB?) I don't think has been in long enough for Road Ops. Perhaps it was the A Div. class that was transferred over to the B div. They now have to be familiarized with the entire B div., and since they had completed their class, they would be ready to do Road Ops.
When exactly did that happen?
- Lyle Goldman
yesterday (6/22/01) around 10:30 AM.
Despite rumours of its demise, Amtrak's vermonter will resume service starting this Sunday. Yesterday they ran a geometry train over the NEC route again and found very few defects in comparason to the nearly 200 that stopped the train sometime last month. There will only be an N/B run on Sunday as a trainset needs to be positioned at St. Albans.
Amtrak has committed itse;f to a one year trial run of a new stop at Dunkirk, NY, near Buffalo. There is currently an abandonned station at Dunkirk and the city hopes that restored train service will help rejuvinate the station area. There are several local establishments that would be served by the station which include Dunkirk Radiator Corp., Chadwick Bay Auction House and the Lakeview Shock Incarceration Correctional Facility. Negotiations for the new stop began in 1995 and the total cost will be somewhere around 1.1 million.
I had been following this too (I went to SUNY Fredonia in the late 1970's), but thought it was dormant now. Conrail had moved most of their MoW crap out of the station. When the CSX takeover was announced, Conrail refused to make any more decisions or progress. Progress continued with CSX, but at the last minute demanded a signal bridge be moved, probably to avoid the Delay-In-Block (DIB) rule. All new passenger stations on CSX RoW must be island platform, which this is. It's also on an embankment. The stairways were filled by Conrail in the 1980's when they feared interest in reopening the station.
The only service would be a middle-of-the night and always late 48/49. Amtrak isn't intrested in extending an Empire train to Cleveland (idiots).
A few questions:
1. What is "MoW"?
2. What is this Delay-In-Block rule?
3. Why must all new passenger stations on CSX right of way have island platforms?
- Lyle Goldman
1. What is "MoW"?
Maintenance of Way.
Sorry, I don't know the answers to your other questions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MoW is Maintainence of Way. The delay in block rule is a new FRA Rule that is explained on this website http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Signal/delay_in_block.html. The island platform rule is probably because CSX might be interested in adding tracks or sidings to the Chicago line at some point in the future and dosen't want to be arsed w/ moving passenger platforms.
Actaully, it is so that a passenger train in either direction can be routed onto either track making full use of the CTC without regard to which side the station is on.
That's great! I hope they keep it!
- Lyle Goldman
The route to Chicago via Buffalo is a vastly underrated and underserved service. It may not be the more direct route from NYC or Philly, but Buffalo and Rochester could really bennefit with better connections to the rest of the Great Lakes cities. Buffalo is, in fact, almost as close to Chicago as it is to NYC.
:-) Andrew
This is about Dunkirk, which is closer to Chicago than to New York.
There is no access to the west except for 1 Greyhound and possibly a LakeFront Trailways bus a day from Dunkirk or Fredonia.
I just had an interesting experience on the Atlanta subway system.
A little background: the Atlanta system is basically two lines, N/S and E/W that intersect at the 5 points station like a + (on 2 levels).
Anyway, we were on the Northbound tracks at the station just before 5 points when the operator came on the speaker and said that the train was switching to the Eastbound tracks and for those not wanting to go Eastbound to exit and wait for the next Northbound train into 5 points.
Never having experienced the transition for N/S to E/W lines I stayed on and the coolest thing happened. We went from the N/S line to a center track, then up a very steep enbankment within the walls of the 5 points station. Then we turned right and went down a very steep hill and next think I know we're coming up from below ground and into the first Eastbound station.
I know thats not much but having never even imagined going on these (between the walls and floor) tracks, it was a neat experience. Those who didnt pay attention were probably confudes as heck though.
Oh man! I wish I was there.
The ride on only piece of non-revenue track in Atlanta (except yards) as a regular passenger. I wish it happened to me when I lived there for almost 2 years as a student. I used MARTA every day for school and work commute.
JRR do you live in Atlanta or just visiting?
I lived there once. I should have said I just remembered ... It was quite a while ago. Seems like something weird was going on like ice on tracks or wreck or Olympics or something. Can't remember exactly. Was interesting riding the N/E line but dark.
MARTA is soooo boring. They need an express line bad but way too late now. Poor planning all those years ago.
You're lucky as hell. I didn't know they did stuff like that with passengers on board. What time did this happen?
Seems like it was during AM rush but I can't remember exactly. Maybe the operator told us to definately get off the train but we wanted to ride so badly that we 'pretended' he didn't, can't remember for sure, been a while ago. Was a neat experience though.
I sure wish Atlanta had thought ahead and added express tracks from the ends of the lines to Lindburgh and 5 points. Sure would have been nice but impossible now.
Bye Bye Rocker.
It would be cool to see express tracks, however, they would just be extra capacity that MARTA does not need. The current setup can handle way more than it does right now. Remember during the Olimpics it handled about 1.5 million a day, without hardly breaking a sweat. The express trains might be empty anyway, beacuse it would be missing a huge portion of riders that don't use the terminal stations.
OK, Have them do the way the NYC West Manhattan trains do when they skip every other stop. If they had a train stop at, for example, Airport, East Point, 5 points, Lindburgh, Dunwoody, and North Springs, instead of all umpteen stops the trip would be alot faster.
All of the LIRR new locomotives are going back to EMD for repairs. They will be going two at a time. They have serious cracks in the frames underneath the engine and alternator. They have problems with the HVAC systems in the cabs, and other minor defects. In short, the engines are not roadworthy, but the railroad has kept some of them in service despite problems. Which explains why there is only one through train on the entire railroad, the 6:11 from Speonk. At least they still have the ex MN FL9s.
There are FOUR thru trains : 2 thru trains on the Port Jeff and 1 on the Oyster Bay, 1 Speonk(Montauk).
They do NOT have the FL9's. They were sent back about 2 years ago when the Bi-tanic coaches were retired.
I do not think there will ever be more thru trains than that. Being that this is the LIRR, they will keep catching fire, just like the FL9's did, even though their twins on MN were fine.
Yup I chose to do a little R142 hunting today. I waited about 20 minutes at Park Place for one, since it has an island platform I can catch it in whatever direction it comes in.
Well it came in the Brooklyn bound direction and I boarded in the middle car. My first impression was it was kind of plain, boring, and sterile. I like the whole scheme of the R142A's better.
This train was very slow, the acceleration wasn't nearly as good as the R142A's. The announcements worked fine, and going back from Flatbush avenue there was a red signal at President st and there is an announcement about "we are sorry for this unavoidable delay" and it flashes on the digital sign. Unfortunately we had a 3 in front of u s the whole way back into Manhattan. The 3 finally got far enough ahead of us by Park Place. But the R142 still made the "dash" up 7th avenue to 42nd (where I got off) seem like eternity. The motors are noticably quieter than on the Kawasaki, but I kinda like that sound. Alot of people were falling asleep, I guess since it was such a slow boring train ride. The Bombardier units feel heavier, and sound that way too (from the outside). Well after riding on both R142 and R142A the R142A's are much better trains.
"This train was very slow, the acceleration wasn't nearly as good as the R142A's."
John, you are really getting annoying. You continually make meaningless comparrisons and judgements based on little information and even less knowledge. How did you know it was a little slower? Since the two don't operate under the same conditions, you can't compare the two. I think I know a tad more that you do about the subject and i can't make that statement.
BTW -
Which speedometer were you watching?
What scale did you use to weigh them?
Do you carry a db meter with you?
Is it possible that the people who ride the kawasaki cars work harder than those who ride the Bombardier cars and that's why they fall asleep.
Welcome to the TrainDude "Dumb-Head" list
The ride took longer than usual. Usually i can get from Chambers to 34th in about 5 minutes. Took more like 8 minutes on the R142.
Even the R68's are much faster. Hey I saw an R68 do near 50mph in the dash.
Also there are a few other people out there (maybe they're afriad to talk) that the Kawasaki R142A's are quicker.
Again it's not just the speed whether it is different or not, the interior of the R142A I like better.
Could have been:
1. Congestion ahead
2. Train Operator being trained
3. Train Operator working alone, but not sufficiently familiar with/confident about handling the equipment to "let it fly"
4. Slow speed order in effect somewhere along the way
5. Perception -- was the time of the trip clocked, or was the running time guessed at?
And remember, the section from Chambers Street to 34th Street has grade timers, at least up to 14th Street.
David
I haven't riddin on an R-142/R-142A yet so I can't be a judge on the subject. I'm sure that they'll both have the same performance. I understand though that they still have their hands full with the R-142/R-142As but, it seems that more of them are enteringservice all the time and the problems are slowly being ironed out. It looks like the "Redbirds" aren't going to be in service much longer. Though they were good cars in their day they are rusting out all over the place and they have to be retired. I hope that at least one train of "Redbirds" are saved however.
One last thing. What is the MDBF on the R-142/R-142As.
BMTJeff
There is no official MDBF for the R-142s yet since delays due to equipment failure on these cars are not charged in the same way. If one had to guess,I'd say they're running about 60,000 - 70,000 out of the box.
An MDBF rate of 60,000 to 70,000 miles isn't to bad considering that the cars are using new technology. I guess that this will improve over time.
BMTJeff
"it was kind of plain, boring, and sterile."
Why you said that?
Some R142A's don't have that artwork on the sides. Like #7235 that I got on a few Sundays ago. It's nice. Not plain, boring, and sterile. DUH!!
To each his own. The R142A has a better "vibe" than the R142.
What is a vibe?
I'm using "vibe" to desribe the asthetics of the interior. The Kawasakis just felt like a more pleasant experience. The Bombardier felt kinda cold and sterile, I guess because of the lack of artwork. Also I could swear I saw an interior destination sign by the windows on the R142A's.
Also the R142 appeared to be more dirty, but that has nothing to do with the car (2's probably see more riders than 6's).
The R142A is plain, boring, and sterile. I've ridden 7231 and 7361 and I agree with Qtraindash7 on this one. Who cares about the artwork? I hope they change it every so often.
Consider yourself a victim of bad luck. I got on some 64's a few weeks ago and rode them on the express southbound. I thought Bom. equipped them with jet propulsion packs they way they were flying (esp. past 50th st.)
The quietness of the R - 142 interior makes the ride far better than the R - 142a, something I've noticed after riding both cars for several months. Did I mention the braking ability. Yes, the 142s had those damn melting brake pads earlier on, but the Kawasaki's still have the problem of skidding to a halt, even after T/Os have handled them for a while.
"I got on some 64's a few weeks ago and rode them on the express southbound."
Forgive my lack of knowledge but what is a '64'?
An R - 142 in the 6400s series.
Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation. Does the TA also refer to it's cars like that - say a 34 for an R-32 or a 57 for an R-46? But then a 54 could be an R-44 or an R-46. Hmmmmmm. That could be confusing. Perhaps the TA should have a better way of identifying its cars. By the way, how would you tell if a 64 was an R-16 or an R-142?
I could tell because I was only a few years old when the R-16s were retired. To me, the term "64s" as in 6400s is new news.
Yeah that's one major thing I left out, the braking on the Bombardier R 142's is much smoother than on the r142a. Definately a quieter ride.
Well I'll try my luck again on an R142 next time I get a chance.
Perhaps it's a bit unfair of me to judge these cars so quickly, as most T/O's are just getting used to them and want to "play it safe" as far as speed goes.
The strip map did not work though, I was under the impression by some messages a few weeks ago that the maps were not operational in the Bombardier units, but if you've seen them on then I guess I'll just have to wait.
strip maps do operate on bombardier. you also forgot to mention build quality. kawasaki failed on that. lots of squeaks and rattles and vibrations. choppy ride. the brakes do an awful lot of squeaking. the newest R-142A did some nasty noises during braking (like if brake pads were bad or something)it sounded as if it needed to be taken out of service and be adjusted. my advice to you, to get a better comparison of both cars, ride the compatability test train running on the 2. Bom R-142 6336-40 with Kaw R-142A 7211-15. from my experience today, the ride manerisms are weird. the R-142A felt heavy, made tugging start offs, swayed and rutted alot on the line, and brung in more track noises. evethough the brakes squeaked to a hault, it wasn't as bad as usual. eventhough the interior is more gleeful, it seems less durable.
The strip maps on the R-142 have worked from the start. I find them somewhat more legible than the ones on the R-142A.
I just noticed that the overhead rail in the center of the car (not that I'll ever use it) is positioned differently in the two models.
all of the R-142s ""scrap ready junkers"" remind me of this crap we have here in L.A. called the Metro Red line
( the subway to nowhere ) !!! the ugly look and sound they make as well !! UGH !!!
give me some good old low vs & high vs any day instead of these new crapy junkers!
You buy 'em, I'll come on out and ROLL 'em. :)
so stop riding the subway and call your love of trains history. get stuck in traffic like all the people in los angeles does because new rolling stock is coming to a station near you weather you like it or not and you will have to live with it.
KHI, he doesen't ride the subway daily....he doesen't even live here...he's just another one of these OUT-OF-TOWN FOOLS* who profess to know what is best for OUR subway system.
*this is not to be taken as an idictment of all of our out of town posters just some
PEACE,
ANDEE
Is it still set to open on the 25th? If so, I'll probably walk it around 10:30, as a last day of school thing. The fence in some areas still appears to be down.
Today I saw the damndest thing on the North Side (MTA) walkway: A guy in an orange vest bicycling over the bridge. He left the gate open on the brooklyn side (went from Brooklyn to presumably Manhattan.
Hello there,
I recently posted an update to my Transit website. I've added a section on rail/transit museum from around the world. I have well over 750 photos of transit and railroads from 52 cities in 9 countries. My site features only cities that I have visited and photographed. On my site you will find photos of:
- Subways/metros
- Light Rail
- Trams/trolleys
- Electric Trolley Buses
- Commuter Rail
- Passenger/Freight
- High Speed Trains
- Farecards/Tokens
- Rail/Transit Museums
- Commercial Aircraft
Please visit: http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark
Thanks
Mark
Well I went on two IRT lines today I never traveled before. I rode an R142 on the 2 line to Flatbush avenue (a boring ride)you can check that out in my R142 message.
But I started my day off with the Redbirds. I took a 7 train to Grand Central then a 5 up the Dyre avenue line (it was my first time on the former NY&W trackage). Definately one of the most interesting lines in the IRT. I got the front window the whole way and enjoyed the usual dash deep under Lexington ave, though there seems to be alot of water leakage between 59th and 86th. That short under-river tube is cool too. After our first stop in the Bronx things get really interesting. We seperate from the 4 and head up this tunnel with a sharp curve. Then you won't believe what I see next. Yellow over red, green over red signals as well in toward the hub. These must be the original IRT signals I've only heard about. It's confusing to see green over red homeballs. The tunnels are beautiful and classic, and we emerge above ground to a nice lookin el from a winding open cut.
The el tracks look in good shape compared to those on the 7 line, and Bronx actually isn't as congested as Queens (buildings are spread out more). There's some nice twists and turns before E180 St. Then the huge IRT 180st shops emerge. The facility looks so large and modern compared to the Corona "barn" as I like to call it. Lots of redbirds still there, with all the new R142's sitting in the yard to the right. Also of interest there is another platform to the east of E180 station, was this from the former NYW trackage?
Our train travels right through the yard, which looks like a nice cozy but modern place, with lots of old fashioned looking signs and switches. And of course I had to get used to the bottom reds on the signals. We soon wind up on the former NY&W trackage. Immediately it looks more like a suburban railroad than a subway. Only one of the center tracks remain and is used for testing, an R142 was seen testing there. There is also this large airy tunnel that we pass through, looks like a classic cut and cover job. The neighborhoods this line passes through look nice and very suburban. You almost feel like you're not in the Bronx anymore!
We arrive at the last stop, Dyre avenue Eastchester. I got another Redbird 5 going back with an equally great ride. There appears to be little left of the electrical towers used by NY&W, except some pole bases here and there. Going back downtown from 125th was very fast with no 4 in front of us. I will sure try to enjoy the last days of the redbirds because by next year a railfan window on these IRT lines will be a distant memory.
The IRT in the Bronx is pretty damn interesting, that's for sure. It is scenic, and goes through alot of different areas. The only Bronx IRT line I haven't done is the 2. Yet.
Also saw an R142A signed up as a 6 on the uptown express track at 14th street, it opened doors on the wrong side and proceeded. Must have been training.
Well it was a long but enjoyable trip to the Bronx today. It sure is farther away from Manhattan than one might think. Perhaps that explains why the areas don't appear too crowded.
There's still plenty of Redbirds I saw running on the 2,4,5, and 6 lines, so there's still a chance to enjoy them before they "fly" away.
<< (it was my first time on the former NY&W trackage)>>
You left out the "O"..."New York Ontario & Western."
it was my first time on the former NY&W trackage
You left out the "O"..."New York Ontario & Western."
Actually, NYW&B - New York Westchester and Boston (not that it ever got remotely close to Boston)
Right. It's funny...while typing NYO&W I'm thinking, "this doesn't sound right." Oh well .
You left out the "O"..."New York Ontario & Western.
Don't you mean New York, Westchester & Boston?
Boarded #6321, the last car of a 2 train from Flatbush to 241 at Borough Hall and got off at Wall at around 3:05-3:10PM today.
A few questions and comments:
1) I forgot to take notice: is the seating in bench from stretching in a straight line from door to door as in the R32 and R40 or does it have indented window seats like the R46/68. I know that the seats were all one color.
2) No interior destination sign. Is this normal? I guess you don't need it because of the passenger info system.
3) Doors are very wide. I hear they are 5' wide. Doesn't this take up seating space?
4) Are the seats behind the last doors at the ends of the car meant for 1 or 2 people? It seems that with one person there's space left over but you still can't fit another person.
5) Doors between cars: These are double doors, I didn't focus on these too much I was really looking at the automatic display and speaker system, are they locked or not, and why are there two doors and not one?
6) That yellow light over the doors that blinks when they're closing is a waste.
7) Strip map didn't light up like I heard it's supposed to do as we went by stops. I guess it's all still in experiment. Did I find an exception or do none of them work on any of the cars.
8) Sighted R62 later on with sign saying "7" between cars. Guess they're headed that way.
9) Are all of the cars that have been delivered in service, what is the number of cars in service, and delivered but not in service?
10) Are the 2 trains R142 or R142A? The 6 would be the other one.
1. All of the seating is the bench type.
2. The passenger information system includes the destination, as does the strip map.
3. The doors are wider than on older cars to facilitate loading and unloading. Yes, the extra door width takes up some seating space.
4. I'd have to count seats, but offhand I'd say those seats are meant for two people.
5. The double doors open. Only the doors between five-car sets don't open.
6. That yellow light, as I understand it, is a Federal requirement (ADA).
7. The strip map is supposed to light up.
8. R-62s are NOT going to the #7 line. If anything, it'll be R-62As.
9. Not all cars are running. About 90 R-142s are running (out of 200 or so) on the #2 line, and about 150 R-142As are running (out of 200 or so) on the #6 line. There's one train of five cars of each running on the #2 line.
10. Answered as part of 9.
David
Okay, here are my thoughts:
1)NO window seats like on the R44/46/68/68A/130! None at all. Was probably not intended.
2)You have the LED information sign to tell you the terminal.
3)Well, I think it does take up space, but unnoticeably not as much as those on the R130, those are %' wide. The R142 doors are only 54" wide, 4'6", not 5'.
4)They, in reality, fit only one person, but they might have been planned for two.
5)They are left open all the time, as far as I know. Why two doors instead of one? I dunno.
6)I dunno about the yellow light near the doors.
7)The strip maps work in ALL R142s. The train you were on I guess had a computer malfunction or something. It normally lights up. I rode #6585 and it worked fine.
8)Maybe, but which ones, the #1/9 R62's or the #3 line ones?
9)The #2 cars are R142. The 6 is R142A.
CWalNYC
R142_#6585-6581/#6576-6580
"but unnoticeably not as much as those on the R130,"
What was the dimension of the opening on the R-130?
Dude ... are you holding out on us? Tucking away your own private undocumented trainset down in the hole on the south end of the yard there? I wanna ride the mighty R-130's too. :)
The R-130 was the 1992 IRT test train built by Kawasaki. 8001-8010.
The R-130 was the 1992 IRT test train built by Kawasaki. 8001-8010.
The only place I've ever heard reference to an R-130 or R-131 is on Subtalk. The train is still known as the R-110A within the TA, itself. Again, it makes as much sense to refer to that train as the R-130 as it does to refer to some R-142s as 64s. If people don't know what the F#(K you are talking about, you are wasting time and space
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
And what is your point? The cars are still known by all operational people as R-110A amd R-110B. Refer to them as R-130 and R-131 and you are no longer communicating effectively. If we were discussing celebraties and I was referred to them by their given names and you referred to them by their stage names - again we'd never get any meaningful dialog started. Or if on subtalk I referred to you by your given name, how many would know who you were?
It's called the "110A" (A division) these days ... gotta love those zany TA PO's, eh? :)
I was just busting chops on Train Dude to discover if he's been holding out on us and stashing some "New Tech. Test Train "A" Division (known as R110A)" cars on us ... there's a rumor that persists to these days that a whole 10-car consist of R1's was "discovered" on abandoned track at Queens Plaza after all. Ya never know where these former RCI's might be stashing some goodies. Were it not for this odd cult behavior, the NYC Transit museum would likely have NOTHING were it not for some people "stashing trains" from the officials. :)
As far as I was told, the doorway width is 60", as I said in my last post. They are somewhat noticeably wider than the 57" doorway width on the R142s.
CWalNYC
The R-110A had door openings that were 5'4" (64") wide. The R-110B door openings are 4'2" wide. Source is "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual"
The strips don't seem to work on the Bombardier R142's. The signage is also better on the Kawasakis. Yes the double doors do open, though they aren't that easy to open (for safety purposes).
Personally I like R142A's better (they run on the 6). R142's run on the 2.
answer to comment #4: it was never meant for two only one. the extra space on the seat make it seem for two.
answer to comment#5: double doors are there for passenger safety and ease. makes it safer to pass through cars, easier to latch.
answer to comment #6: pretend that you were born deaf. that yellow light will tell you that the doors are closing and protect you from getting crunched.
Answer to comment #7: because of the fact that the Bombardier R-142 just came back to the line, the train crew still is inexperienced in working the map and automated system pressing wrong buttons and options on the screen. they even had problem operating the R-142A automated system.
>>> double doors are there for passenger safety and ease. makes it safer to pass through cars, easier to latch. <<<
You might remember last year a small child fell off a train when a storm door between cars opened by itself when the train lurched. The double door with its counter balancing forces is supposed to keep the door from unexpectedly flying open when the car lurches sideways even if it is unlatched.
Tom
as i had already generalized in your quoted phrase from me. the double doors are made for the safety of the passengers with ability to stay closed no matter what. unfortunately, the R-143 doesn't come with that but, ergonomics probably made the single door on that model "fly open proof"
I still think the double doors are a safety hazard.
Maybe I'm more cautious than most, but when I pass between cars, I always hold the grab bar as I take that critical step. The general maneuver is pull door open with left hand - hold grab bar with right hand - pull next door open with left hand. The double doors are difficult to open with only one hand, and that means I need three hands to open the second door while holding the grab bar, and it in general makes it more difficult to use the grab bar.
The answer to question 6 is that the blinking yellow light that indicates that the doors are closing is that they are for the hearing impaired who cannot hear the chimes.
BMTJeff
Yep ! breakin down already !! LOL !!
You've got to be kidding me about the flashing yellow lights breaking down already but, at the same time I'm not surprised.
BMTJeff
i am not suprised ! its like some of the newer rail systems i have seen like here in good ol' downtown LA.
( the metro red line ) ..........................Ugh !!...............the rail stock sucks big time !!! ( like the r-142 ) !!! he he he, LOL !!
It sounds like they're having just as much of a hard time with the new rolling stock in L.A. as they're having here in NYC.
BMTJeff
You've got to be kidding me about the flashing yellow lights breaking down already but, at the same time I'm not surprised.
He's not kidding. He has severe mental problems, he is NOT from New York and has never even seen an R-142.
Which person are you talking about?
BMTJeff
I'm talking about Salaam.
What is your question please?
I am a NEW YORK CITY native & proud of it man! Born in my beloved home date 11 3 51 rode the entire R-1-R-9 FLEET not just on the a train.
Was not tall enough as a child to look out of the railfan window of the R11 & R-17 types etc..
I even remember riding almost the entire pre world war 2 rolling stock fleet ( so there ) !!
Rode the R-12s when they graced the flushing line #7 with my late grandmother (god bless her soul)
My family (s) lived in philadelphia monclair new jersey flushing new york my mother used to live in grenwich nyc walking distance to the village vanguard jazz night club where john coltraine and many other jazz greats played !!
I am a proud YANKEE & did not give a damn what any fool said about me when i lived in Atlanta 1983-1988 ( a god forsaken place ) etc..
since then i lived in detroit until 1991 & moved temporary to the west coast where we are watching the PASADENA BLUE LINE light rail system being built !
Now if you dont like it ask me when myself and SOUTH FERRY ride the almight & Great & Wonderful "" REDBIRDS "" while we shoot video coming back home to my birthplace NYC home sweet home !! ( hope this answeres your Q&A ) lol !! he he he he he he !!...
you may be born and raised in new york but you have been away from it for a long time. you have not seen alot of things that has changed for the better even though you don't like newer better things,which you weren't here to live to appreciate. and visiting doesn't count. and the way you talk on the post, you don't seem to be a new yorker thats why many people in here think you are not from there. it also looks like that you have nostalgiaritis. you got stuck in a time zone and can't move foward and have a scorn of things that are changing around you. you need to see a doctor about that. it can cripple you. and to see the death of the redbirds will induce your disease and kill you. you need help.
Did you like the pre-war IRT and BMT subway cars?
BMTJeff
I have a bridge I want to sell you...
5. Picture you're in a wheelchair and they're evacuating through the first car. Try to roll through a single (redbird/R-62) storm door vs. the R-142. The R-143s have a single door, presumably since one doorway can be wider on B division cars.
Why do some of you hate AC traction motors is it the sound? Whats the difference with AC&DC traction motors? And whats the problem?
Conrail bought a slew of AC-traction locomotives (SD60-MAC and SD-80MAC) and I've had the opportunity to run a few of them a few years ago before the selloff. They're NICE. But there's pros and cons to them. When CSX acquired them, first thing CSX did was DITCH them.
The advantages are that they're VERY efficient. The frequency and phase can be adjusted dynamically for the best torque/power profile for a given speed and load. If you pull high load at high torque at a very slow speed (typically 3 MPH or so) you'll burn up DC motors in no time after the ammeters pin from the load. AC motors can take it without much of a whimper. At worst, you'll need to reset a breaker. AC motors don't need brushes that burn up on you and require frequent maintenance and thus are more durable.
The DISadvantages is that they're "new" and a lot of locomotive mechanics have no idea of how to handle them or what to do when they DO break down. The propulsion packages are FAR more complicated and if you don't have mechanics who know how to work with them, they are quite the challenge. Conrail put spirals on the car numbers to warn their shop guys that these weren't your father's Oldsmobile. But if you've GOT people that know how to work on them, they're a whole lot less work than DC motors and you have the added benefit of not havint to constantly yank the motors off for brush replacements on AC traction.
We'll ignore the bad side from an operating standpoint of the "whisper cabs" on the EMD locos which remove all sensation of the road from the running standpoint ... running an SD80MAC was like sitting in a damned living room ... you HAVE to depend on your display to know how fast you're running because it's near impossible to tell what's happening under the chassis without the display (GOTTA watch those wheel slip meters or you'd never know even with the automatic sanding).
Bottom line, if you've got folks who know how to fix them, AC traction is a LOT better on the old bottom line and far more reliable than DC traction. Especially with a high load and slow speed.
Having read engineers bitching and moaning about the lousy working conditions on some locomotives, I must say it comes as a shock to read one complain about a locomotive that is too comfortable.
Heh ... I *was* the exception to the rule with my Gonerail drinking buddies. If you've ever WORKED a railroad, gone "illegal" and the morons called you back to duty after only FOUR hours out of the bar, you'd bet your ASS that you'd call on a buddy who was sober and knew how to run an SD40-2 so you could continue to sleep it off in the cab while someone ELSE "did it" ... NYCTA has scheduled hours ... you take a pick and do it every day. Not so LUXURIOUS on a "real" railroad where your posterior belongs to a crew chief who penciled you in and don't GIVE a rat's ass about what you went through 12 hours ago.
MANY opportunities for throttle time if you had friends and could be TRUSTED if the brake pipe was put to zero to wake them up at the next yard limit. :)
Hi ya!! :)
I won't be on Subtalk as of tonight. I am going to Phily to go to the SEPTA Roadeo. So I getting a chance to ride the NJ Transit Trenton Line and SEPTA R7 Trenton line. BUT I would just take Buses when I in Phily. So I would have some Train Photos and Lots of Bus photos.
So I would post what I rode when I get a chance.
So I need my sleep now. So See Ya!! :)
Thought I'd share this image I recently acquired of Poughkeepsie and the RR bridge from 1917... not only is one of the Hudson River Day Line boats moving stately down the river towards the bridge (naturally, since the photo is courtesy the Day Line) but you can see trains on both sides of the river, albeit none on the bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LIRR uses three different couplers now. The standard freight knuckle coupler, The coupler on the M-1/M-3 and the coupler used on the Bi-levels. It's sort of like a combination of a knuckle and an H2C. Amtrak and NJT use it too. Does anyone KNOW the real designation of this coupler?
Now how do you suppose they manage when a bilevel train breaks down and a MU train pulls up behind it, followed by a New York and Atlantic GP-38, and the line happens to be single track, like the Ronkonkoma branch just after Hicksville Station? Headscratchers, anyone? Just to make it interesting, there is nothing available ahead of the bilevel, and traffic is building up behind it. You can shuttle bus the commuters, but clearing the right of way involves what moves, and you do not have the luxury of time.
Thanks for addressing the question I asked. You've been quite helpful.
You are welcome, and the point is illustrated - incompatible equipment can lead to worse headaches than you thought they would. Just what would the backoffice guys do in the scenario I came up with?
By the way, do not give Tylenol to your dog, his liver cannot de-toxify it and he will die from even a small dose. Same thing for cats. I have seen that mistake made, so I am just giving a friendly advisory.
Yeah, also do not give chocolate to dogs or onions to cats it can be deadly. Speaking of deadly, you should not wear any rings while walking past a gas station. Your knuckles scraping along the ground may send off sparks leading to an explosion.
How does the LIRR avoid the situation in which two trains are stuck on a branch line behind a disable one, and all three have incompatible couplers? That first time can be a real pain.
Explosives ... 'nuff said. :)
They have hermaphrodite couplers. The shop switcher at New Haven (GP35 #101) has one attached most of the time and I have a picture of it being used.
Hey! Hey! There's *KIDS* here! This is a FAMILY place and WCBS radio88 and the NY Post confirm this! Heh.
Now, you've done it! If you hadn't flagged it for them, they never would have bothered looking it up.
That's OK, they would have heard it in NYCTA official potty training, long before schoolcar, that weird little 14th St facility over the Canarsie line terminal where the lights flickered every time they fried the kid in the tower.
Homo electrons blowing fuses - consult page 36.
Hay Dude, he didn't deserve that !
Mr t__:^)
Yes he did!!!
By the way, do not give Tylenol to your dog, his liver cannot de-toxify it and he will die from even a small dose. Same thing for cats. I have seen that mistake made, so I am just giving a friendly advisory.
Same thing for heavy drinkers. A lot of alcoholics have died from liver failure because of the additive effects of alcohol and Tylenol.
They do not call alcohol an intoxicant for nothing. Anyway, with three different types of couplers in use on the LIRR, how do they get around problem situations? I can kind of understand NJTransit and Amtrak, then again, if the line gets tied up, shouldn't there be some kind of arrangement for clearing the line which will be of mutual benefit to both lines? Is there something like that in place? The LIRR situation is a recipe for a major headache.
I know that the couplers on the SEPTA Simverliner MU's are the Hook type and are incompatable with standard AAR couplers. Same goes with the NJT Arrows as they have a pin type coupler so the LIAR is not alone in it's problem. Now in case of emergency you're forgetting that a loco don't need to couple up to give a push.
Really? What about the brake lines? Well, if you say so, fine, but now I am wondering about this. Well, that is something for those who work on the rails, so I will resume my position of bystander and keep a low profile.
If it was really an emergency and the front train was unable to charge it's brakes they would probably have a crew onboard manning the hand brakes like in days of yore.
"Now in case of emergency you're forgetting that a loco don't need to couple up to give a push."
Perhaps in Lionelville that's true but on real railroads it's not that simple. You don't just push on real railroads without being coupled. You don't tow trains either using rope, cable or kite string either. Why can't you just push? Perhaps in the perfect world you could get away with it but in our world we deal with vectors, gravity and laws of nature. Take a 4,000 HP loco or even a 1,500 HP switcher. What do you think would happen if you you tried to 'just push'? Couplers are not rigidly mounted. They move laterally approximately 30 degrees from the center line (if not more). When that coupler swings, a fair portion of your pushing force goes off at that same angle. Easily enough to push the disabled train off the tracks. When both couplers swing, draft gear can be severely damaged and even drop down, ripping up track, signal boxes etc. Let's not forget about damage to the anti-climbers.
In the real world, we bite the bullet - we use real-world solutions. We try to maintain equipment with like couplers on the same line. When that's not possible we have adapters or we'll move incompatible equipment out of the way to get compatible equipment in position. The cost of a delay is far less than the cost of the damage caused by impatience or stupidity.
I doubt that there is one 'real railroad' person on this board who can point to one case where a train was pushed - uncoupled. It just aint done.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the Seashore Trolley Museum, we're a pretty small "railroad," but we too don't push without coupling. And if there's any doubt (such as if we are using an adapter), we chain as well.
Many years ago I once witnessed what happens when you don't take that extra step, and it isn't pretty. Stopping a rolling, unpowered, unmanned MP-54 isn't easy!
Sure it is–you just let it roll until it stops. However, it may not stop in an elegant manner anywhere close to where you wanted it to!
Grin!
John
It was a very close call, but no harm was done. But it sure was a scary moment!
Well down on the SJRR they are frequently spotting box cars with pickup trucks. Also, back in the day, standard equipment on a locomotive was a stout oak pole. All locos and freight cars had little indentations on their pilot corners and pole'n the gon was a standard albeit dangerous practice.
Yeah and I've pushed cars in the shop by hand. But we were talking about pushing a stalled train (possibly with passengers) aboard. I'm here to tell you that it is a dangerous practice that ain't done in the civilized world.
I believe you are referring to a standard AAR Tightlock coupler used on most passenger cars in the US. This coupler can also be found on some selected freight cars. The coupler is basically a standard AAR knuckle (and is compatable w/ all AAR knuckles) with a female recepticle on the left and a male pointy bit on the right. The female and male bits do not in any way lock together, but they provide additional strength in the coupling that prevents unwanted verticle and horizontal movement.
I sent you a picture of this type of coupler via e-mail. If you feel like posting it on the web for all to see be my guest as I temporarily do not have access to my website.
That's the one Mike. Thank You......
So Dude...how many types of couplers are used by the subway system at the moment? And how do disabled cars get pulled or pushed around the system?
The NYCS uses a standard coupler.
I was under the impression that R142s use a non-standard coupler and carry adaptors in case they have to be towed.
Is it not the same type of coupler that was used on the LIRR
passenger coaches before the bi-levels replaced them? In that
case it is an MCB type F, the standard for passenger use since
the 1920s.
Hmm, isn't that an N1A or an N2A, or something like that?
Amtrak uses it? I've never seen it on Amtrak.
You're talking about the pin and hole coupler, right? Most east coast MUs use them. I was surprised the DD test set used them, I didn't think they could pull that much...
Nope. The picture Jersey Mike linked was the coupler I was referring to. It seems that the LIRR, MN and NJT use the "Pin & Funnel" on their MUs. AMTRAK, LIRR and NJT use the other on their diesel stuff. I'm not sure about Metro North's diesel stuff but I plan to visit Grand Central this week.
The "pin and funnel", which also has a more vulgar, anatomical
nickname, is the WABCO N-2. The lesser endowed N-1 was used on the
R110. The passenger coach couplers are type F, tight-lock, which
JM explained. Freight knuckle couplers are type E.
Today the very sad funeral for the third casualty of the Fathers Day tragedy took place today in a church by the #7 flusghing line in Woodside. The news video showed rows of numerous uniformed fireighters in uniform underneath the elevated structure on Roosevelt Ave.
Since the #7 Line is a very busy one, especially on a weekday, was service halted ? It would seem passing trains would mar the somber mood of the day. I didn't hear any passing trains, was service affected ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I mean no disrespect to the dead or anything, of course, but hearing that almost 10,000 people attended each of the funerals sorta got me thinking. Let's assume that debris flying from the exploding building had fatally clunked a spectator on the head - for example, a Subtalker who had noticed the commotion while exploring the Astoria line and came over for a closer look. Would 10,000 people have attended that person's funeral? Ha ha, 100 would be stretching it. Yet he or she'd be just as dead.
Moral of the story? Maybe it's true that all people are created equal. But they sure don't die equal.
I remember back in the 60's when riding a (N) Sea Beach train passing Coney Island Creek and the Belt Parkway, there used to be a small farm, possibly produce. I saw this when viewing out the railfan window of an R-32 or R-27/30.
For all you young SubTalkers, I'm not joking. It was in the area roughly where the car wash is today. Of course, the farm closed down and Coney Island Yard was expanded.
Does anybody remember the little farm and the story why it lasted so long in that particular place ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I also remember the vegetable farm next to the Sea Beach trackage near the 86th St. station. It existed at least until 1969.
--Harry
"Bill, I also remember the vegetable farm next to the Sea Beach trackage near the 86th St. station. It existed at least until 1969."
Harry,
Wasn't the farm where the current car wash is today ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I have not been through there since the late '70s, so I have no idea what's there now. I do remember that the farm was longer there the last time I went through the area (circa 1977). The farm was viewable from the Belt Parkway, too.
Harry,
Thanks anyway, I always found it to be strange that a little produce farm was sitting between two subway yards and the Sea Beach tracks. Maybe the original owners had some sort of 99 year lease on the property with the BMT.
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably Fred s Family
Today June 22, 2001 is the 86th birthday of the BMT Sea Beach Line and the first segment of the IRT Corona Flushing Line.
BMTJeff
Why did the N run through the Manhattan Bridge in 1990 for a month?
Is this a quiz? - what's the prize?
The most appropriate prize would be a round-trip ride on the Sea Beach from Dekalb Av. to the Canal St. (tunnel) station.
With Sea Beach Fred standing next to you complaining why the N is soooo slooow
ROTFLMAO
So basically you'd get $1.50.
:-) Andrew
Andrew, I don't think that even our fanatical friend Sea Beach Fred will agree to taking the $1.50 just to ride the Slow Beach via tunnel from Dekalb to Canal and back.
--Harry
It was thought at that time that the south tracks were sufficiently strengthened to support N operation, but they found that side of the bridge sank by one foot when a train crossed it, so the tracks were quickly closed. Hopefully they won't have the same problem when the tracks are reopened July 22.
Actually it was 3 months (Late September to late December). The strenghtening done in the previous 5 years was not sufficient to handle the load of both sets of tracks operating at the same time.
I called it the "Tease of 1990" ...
(Actually it was 3 months (Late September to late December). The strenghtening done in the previous 5 years was not sufficient to handle the load of both sets of tracks operating at the same time.
I called it the "Tease of 1990" ... )
Thank you Ed Koch. Dinkins should have blame the whole thing on prior administrations, went to the federal/state government, and begged for a replacement tunnel right then and there. But no. The crazy's were in charge, and their attitude was "we're against cars because they pollute, and against transit because its expensive, so the entire city transportation network must be based on bicycles."
Hope we don't have the "Tease of 2004."
Amen.
I don't know about you, Larry; but I have this gut feeling that we'll be looking at "W" trains for quite some time to come.
And the reasons given for terminating the "W" at Pacific Street on weekends just doesn't cut it - track work - WHAT track work? Are they talking about the De Kalb Avenue station rehab?
wayne
The TA and its' employees use the term "track work" far too often. Sometimes it is trackwork, but many times it is signal work (electrical/signal cable being installed), station rehab work, or structural work.
this makes me think "track work" will involve running Q as tunnel and/or local nights and weekends.
It could also mean the N or R running over the bridge for those periods (one direction). Remember, Rector st. is the last station in Manhattan to have the 70s tile still up...
>>The TA and its' employees use the term "track work" far too often<<
This simplifies things. Telling passengers exactly what kind of work is unnecessary. However, the information should be made available for anyone to find it if they desired it.
They used to have (on the service disruption posters) a small graphic depicting the kind of work being done (a generalization, obviously). Also, there used to be a NY1 segment every weekend mentioning every single G.O., and exactly how long it would last, and why it was occurring. Paul Fluronges (sp.?) did it, along with a weekly transit report, both segments were axed when he moved to CBS.
Partly correct. The work on that side was not finished, and it was only planned to be open for about a year. Remember, they had only been working on parts of the roadway and had not even started on the rehabilitation of the track support and Canal St., and when they were finished one section, there was time in between this and the start of the rest of the work, so the DOT gave the tracks back to the TA for a year or so, and limited service was run. I was so upset they did not send the Q back to Bway (was living on the Brighton and working at Alexanders on 59th St at the time) but this was because it was only a temporary change. (didn't want to get toom nay peple used to the improved sevice only to have to take it away again.
But then, when the cracked beam was found, this was cut short, and they knew not to try it again until the work was finished.
They have been delivered from Plattsburgh and were headed up to East 180th St as of 11PM. The cars are multiplying like jack rabbits... Heh.
-Stef
I *warned* you that would happen when you reported that unnatural act between the Kawasakis and the Bombardiers ... do me flavor, son ... check the manufacturer's plate and warn ALL of us if you see "Bombasaki" on there. :)
Not too long ago, I came across an article that mentioned the possible closing of this Brooklyn institution. For those who don't know, Philips has been serving homemade saltwater taffy and other goodies since.... well my lifetime! I'm not exactly sure how long they have been in business.
Anyway, as I haven't had the opportunity to venture there since reading the column, I wondered if anyone here might have any information regarding the store. Is it still open? Do they plan to move elsewhere? Has any construction actually begun?
My interest is two-fold. First, because there's no other store like it that I know of, and secondly, when I was 14, I worked there during the summer serving you :-)
Does anyone know the status of Philips?
Thanks
It's closed. The family says they'll reopen after the terminal reconstruction is complete.
As delivered, the current Redbird fleet had "drop sashes" for the side windows. There are still some surviving. But a good number of them recieved those european style vent windows. Does anybody know why the TA spent money on this knowing the fleets days were numbered ?
Bill "Newkirk"
There were still plenty of years left when the mod was done. At some point they gave up and took up the mentality that they're days were numbered (some 15 years into the future at the time).
In Los Angeles, they did the same thing to a large portion of the bus fleet. It seems they only modified the windows on busses that had sliding windows; they did not bother modifying the really old RTS busses or Flxibles that used the solid-paned, non-operating windows.
This makes me think that part of the intent was to prevent people from throwing or handing items in and out of the windows (i.e., rowdy high school kids).
geeezz! i dont remember any los angeles MTA buses being done like that !! " drop sashes "...you can still open up many windows now !!
They started to change the drop sash windows on the "Redbirds" for the current ones in the early 1990s. Believe it are not there was or still is an R-29(#8715) with one drop sash window and the remaining windows are of the newer style.
BMTJeff
Gee, they really did decide to abandon that project the last minute! ;-)
The car with the odd drop sash window (R-29#8715) probably was the result of having been short one new window at the time and they never bothered to replace just one odd drop sash.
BMTJeff
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Passenger trains are a litter quieter and freight trains are a louder.
What an insightful observation...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Your point being?
That passenger trains are better.
Better at what? Don't freight trains and passenger trains specialize in different things, or am I just crazy?
I was thinking the same thing, too. How would you, as a passenger, like to ride in a tank car?
Since passenger trains are better, I wouldn't. But I bet that a subway car could haul coal better than a CSX train could, you know, since because passenger trains are quieter.
IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY THEN, DON'T SAY IT and stop wasting bandwidth....jeez
Peace,
ANDEE
Does the MBTA green line have welded tracks? If they did the Type 8's would be less troble prone.
I just found out this morning there is a Emergency GO over at Dyre Avenue there are only shuttle trains running between Dyre Avenue and East 180th street.Whats going on?
they are replacing the switch south of dyre
I took a trip up, they are replacing/repairing the switch from 180 to unionport, that switch allows dyre avenue bound trains to go. There was only 1 shuttle train on a single track (manhattan bound, so wrong rail to dyre)
They should really rebuild the express tracks on the whole line. That way, they can run express trains on the Dyre Avenue line whenever a local track must be put out of service. Of course, I doubt they'll ever do that, though.
- Lyle Goldman
So far I like how the air conditioning works, I also feel the acceleration when she starts moving out of the station. I DON'T like the exterior appearance, I like the R110A for that.
Since Redbirds are RED, I was thinking this would be their anthem:
Arise ye redbirds from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of scrap
For reason in revolt now thunders
and at last ends the hi-tech age
Away with all you are-one-four-twos
Rusted masses arise, arise!
we'll keep henceforth the old tradition
and spurn the rust to win the prize!
So car class come rally
and the last fight let us face
The internationale unites the Redbird race!
So car class come rally
and the last fight let us face
The internationale unites the Redbird race!
Oh.
thats what i said too !! .................oh !!
Oh, HELL YEAH!
"Let's go redbirds!" (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
"Let's go redbirds!" (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
"Let's go redbirds!" (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
Oh, HELL YEAH!
"Let's go redbirds!" (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
"Let's go redbirds!" (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
"Let's go redbirds!" (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
see you this fall october 2001 !!
I betcha Lori Berenson would ride a redbird.
If they let her outta that Peruvian dungeon!
www.forgotten-ny.com
WHy not ship them all to Cuba so these "cars of the people" can move the masses around that worker's paradise?
Good idea., if they have third rails which I do not think they have.
20 years for not reporting that you were living with the rebels...but I suppose the US would do the same thing if it happened here.
An SUV lost traction and spun out at a grade crossing in Winslow Twp. getting stuck on the tracks in the process. The female driver called police and was waiting for them to arrive outside her vehicle when a train came and struck it. AC Line trains were delayed for about 90 minutes. There was some damage to an NJT Cab Car.
It never ceases to amaze me how cars, trucks etc. always stall on the crossing and very rarely before or after the crossing. Simply amazing !
Bill "Newkirk"
They do. It just doesn't make the papers.
How long did she wait before this happened? Was there no time for the police to notify NJ Transit and stop the train?
At freight RR crossings I've seen in Atlanta, CSX posts an 800- number which connects to its control center. If you get stuck on the tracks, you can call the 800- number and the dispatcher will activate red signals and/or notify train engineers to stop trains headed for that crossing.
In an effort to shut up Guillford Transportation, the owner of the Portland service route, the FRA rules that Amtrak trains would be premitted to travel at up to 79 mph on the 115 pound welded rail. Guilford, citing safety concerns, wanted to limit the trains to 59 mph.
Due to the washout SEPTA has been operating MU trains north of the bridge in a shuttle service that then transfer's riders to a short bus hop to Jenkintown. The problem that arose is how are they suposted to get the MU's trapped north of the washout down to a terminal for maintainence. This weekend SEPTA is operating a diesel shuttle down the non-electrified, 10 mph max, Stoney Creek branch to conntect with the R6 line at Norristown with a SEPTA SW1200 as the power.
Does anyone have an updated track map or track chart showing the Regional Rails,,R1 to R8 ,,,i have an older copy from a few years ago
thank you
Steve
1 - Regarding Grand St. Shuttle, could this be eliminated and at least one of the 6th Ave. services extended to Grand St. if crossover switches could be installed south of the station where the wall separating the tracks ends (maybe even if close to the Manhattan Bridge)? There may be enough room between those switches and where the tracks rise above grade level to allow two 10-car trains to go, and then reverse and go back uptown. Could be the D or B, probably D, and this would eliminate a train change to/from the shuttle. If this could be accommodated, it shouldn't interfere with the reconstruction because the trains would not be on the bridge itself and it's steel girders.
2 - Regarding no service from Grand St. to Brooklyn on the B. D. Q: it's not much of a walk to the Essex or Bowery stations, and its only a one- or two-station ride to Canal St., where there's a really easy transfer walk to the Manhattan Bridge B and Q Canal St. platforms. To augment M/J/Z frequency during non-peak hours, a shuttle could run from Bowery (maybe Essex) to Chambers St. Maybe this would eliminate lots of the controversy about getting to south Brooklyn after the bridge flip.
What do you think?
Mike Rothenberg
Item #1 It makes sense. So you know they won't do that. And even if they considered it by the time they got around to planning, bidding and the start of construction it would already be 2004.
Item #2 The local politicians had requested that M service be expanded into Brooklyn at all times for the duration of the project.
The TA (in its usual fashion) turned it down. The local community wants a one seat trip into Brooklyn. Your idea requires people to think and walk to change trains(very difficult for many to do at the same time).
1. It's too late and too expensive. Running the B or D south of 34th St is wasteful and confusing. People used to riding these lines to Brooklyn will undoubtedly get caught at Grand St. At least at 34th St, these people can easily x-fer to W and Q trains. However, if switches existed, the S and V after November could terminate at Grand.
2. Resumption of M service during the midday hours from Chambers to 9th Ave should be explored. Bowery usage is already WAY up, and it will only increase after the flip.
Quick questions: Is Brighton Express service eliminated during the flip?
If so, what about running the M down the Brighton Local like it used to be?
No and No
Thanx
The Brighton line will have 2 Q's, one local and one express. Restoring the M as the Brighton local will only repeat the mistake of 1967 which eliminated local service to midtown outside of the rush hours.
Thanks - never thought of having the M as the Brighton Local was a mistake. But, yeah, it is.
Once the MB is fully open and the TA has enough cars, it would be feasible to have an M local supplement the D local service on the Brighton line during rush hours.
(What do you think?)
My main thought is that I'm glad somebody finally noticed the problems with the bridge, even if those affected don't meet the definition of people in New York State.
If nothing else, it will be a little more difficult for the pols to simply ignore the problem or put out BS when the north side bridge fix goes beyond 2004, and/or the south side starts cracking again.
Yes, thank God. All the rhubarb caused by the 3rd flip in 15 years might finally press the city to get all 4 tracks into operation.
Anyone besides me wonder if the city would ever abandon 2 of the 4 tracks permanently if they thought they could get away with it?
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From watching brake pressure guages and reading various locomotive operation FQA's I have come up with some questions about train brakes that applies to both transit and real railroads.
Now I am fairly familliar with how a railroad airbrake works with pressure reductions and releases etc. I also know that the engineer has both a dynamic and independant air brake. My first question, is the dymanic brake controled on the throttle (ie by putting the throttle in the reverse position you get varying degrees of braking force). My second question is where is the independant brake. The big red brakestand in a locomotive is pretty obvious, but I was wondering where the independant airbrake is crontolled from.
Moving on, when I am on SEPTA MU trains and the engineer makes a brakepipe reduction I see the cylinder pressure rise like is should, but then the pipe pressure rises back up again to normal when the engineer puts the lever in normal. Then the engineer then puts the brake lever in release the cylinders dump w/o any change in the pipe pressure. Shouldn't the pipe pressure stay reduces after a reduction? Why are MU's different from locomotives?
I notice the same type of activity on PATCO which uses an integrated dynamic-air system with true one handle control.
This brings me to my last question, dynamic brake use.
Whenever I have been watching an engineer I have never seen him or her use a dymanic brake. On Amtrak's Vermonter, on SEPTA MU's and on a recent trip on the Q train the Engineers or T/O's always reach for the air brake handle and dump some air. On PATCO almost every decrease in speed is accompanied with an airbrake application (as indicated by the guages). What is going on here.
I think I can answer one of your questions, because I asked a similar one of an Amtrak employee some years ago.
A push-pull passenger train engineer will not go to dynamic braking often, because the cars will jostle too much. The locomotive slows down and the cars then run into the loco and one another in sequence and back and forth - irritating, esp. if you're standing in the isle. Air braking provides even braking on all cars, so they all slow down together - smoother and more comfortable for riders.
On MU's, you can use dynamic braking downbto 10 mph and then apply airbrakes, because all cars will brake together.
Did I help you with this answer? Or did I merely restate the obvious?
I don't know anything about throttle arrangements or cylinder pressures - someone else needs to step in here.
The use of the dynamic varies by engine type. Since the coaches
don't have dynamic, using it is the same as using the independent
and you'll run in all the slack. Usually you want to keep the train
stretched.
Standard locomotive braking includes a stand with a train and an
independent handle. When the independent hande is in neutral, the
locomotive brakes work in unison with the trainline brakes, so
taking a reduction on the train air causes an application on the
engine as well. The ind handle can be used either to release or
to apply the brakes, overriding the train air setting. On modern
brake stands the independent and train air are on the same valve
and you regulate the former by pushing up or down.
On MU cars, what you are probably seeing is electric holding, where
the brake pipe is recharged pneumatically, but the cylinder pressure
is retained via a battery voltage trainline wire. Same thing the
R9s and LoVs had.
Your explanation of why dynamic is not used assumes that the engine is pulling the train. Suppose it is pushing?
A similar problem happens. The locomotive brakes, jerking back on the cars. As each car hits the next, they jostle back and forth again.
At least one poster has written here that the couplers are tight enough so this shouldn't be an issue, but more than one Amtrak employee has assured me that it is a problem - hence the use of air brakes.
The whole point of dynamic brakes is that they are so much better than air brakes. No pissing away air, one handle operation, no wear and tear on the brake pads, etc. If they are that unsuitable for passenger operation why equip the locomotives with them at all? This still dosen't explain why I never see the dynamics used on MU's trains where all the axles are powered.
"This still dosen't explain why I never see the dynamics used on MU's trains where all the axles are powered."
Well, on subways (transit MU's) the dynamic brakes are used.
As to the commuter MU's, if they are not used, I don't know why.
You are certainly correct in that the dynamic brake would be superior on an MU.
Please note however, that the dynamic brake on a locomotive can be a lifesaver. What if brake pressure is suddenly lost and the emergency brake doesn't operate for some reason? The dynamic brake is a great backup system. Plus, general purpose locos pulling freight will use them. I don't know if it would make sense to manufacture a locomotive without one. Could you (isn't a dynamic brake simply the result of reversing the polarity of a current you apply to a motor? )?
You need the resistance grids for the dynamic brake to work.
True, but only tangential to my question.
Well you asked if it was possible to manufacture without dymanic brakes and yes it is very possible. Aside from the control equipment you need to route the current through resistance grids and then cool the grids somehow. This is the "extra" equipment that you need to get dynamics to work right. If this was not your question I'm sorry.
Don't apologize.
I meant that the dynamic brake capability is inherent in any traction motor. Granted you have to add appropriate equipment to make it happen properly and safely.
There might be a problem with today's asynchronous AC motors, but I don't know.
Gotta side with you on this one ... as someone who's spent a LOT of time in "useful engines" (another allusion to "thomas") I've only hit the dynamics with a short cut of cars or none at all. Much smoother than air until they decay ...
In REALITY though, you want AIR ... dynamics don't buy you much unless you want to deal with thumpety-thud-thud behind you since dynamics don't buy much with a couple hundred or thousand feet of air-only behind you ...
I have read that dynamics are good for speed control down a prolonged grade (ie horseshoe curve). Instead of having to ride the brakes all the way down you just have to apply the dynamic. The PRR would run into problems when running like 6 or more GP-9's on the front of a freight train when they would get TOO MUCH brake power on the head end.
PRECISELY ... and that's exactly what they're used for normally. They don't help much for the cars behind you, but they DO help to prevent picking up MORE speed.
Look - I don't know what they use in east Podunk or Keokuck, Iowa but the LIRR & Metronorth use dynamic brake. So does every MU equiped railroad I've seen. Aside from that, where did you get the other mis-information you posted? No pissing away air? Who gives a damn? That's why god invented air compressors. You want air, you put one under the train. You want more air, you hang another. Piss away more air, add another compressor. Get the point? Same for brake pads. That's what they are there for. They wear - you replace them. After all, the car inspectors need something to do. NOW, what does single handle operation have to do with dynamic brake or no dynamic brake? Who's giving you all this information about trains, Gallagher?
I have spent hours watching SEPTA and NJT MU engineers and they NEVER use the dynamic brake.
Having an air compressor run constantly and needing frequent brake pad replacement costs money. Brake pads aren't free and each MU has like 8 or 16 of them. The more you make a compressor work the sooner it will fail. Using the dynamic brake is a lot simpler than applying and releasing the air brake. For all these reasons why one SHOULD use the dynamic brake why do I ALWAYS see the NJT or SEPTA engineer reach for the big red handle that goes WOOSH.
I would submit that the only way to avoid maintenance costs on MU equipment (or any other equipment, for that matter) is to pack up and go home.
David
That's no excuse to waste money. The whole point of dynamic brakes is that they save on brakeshoe replacement. This cuts costs and raises equipment availability. The pre-dynamic Baldwin Centipedes had 96 brake shoes! Do you want to be the one to replace them?
Anyway I was watching PATCO brake pressure guage today and they do make effective use of dynamic braking (w/ some irregularities).
Do you want to be the one to replace them?
If they paid me well :)
Never is a long time and I doubt that it really is never. However, as one who is an expert in the field of railcar maintenance, to one who is clearly not an expert in railcar maintenance, you would be better served if you would stop flapping about that which you do not know and listen to those who have the knowledge. If you listen to engineers - if you get your info from dell comics - you'll most likely get it wrong. Just like your opinions about railcar warranties are all wet, your knowledge about this area is woefully lacking?
Now for someone who has spent hours watching SEPTA and NJT engineers not use dynamic brake, perhaps you would tell the rest of us from where you observed this and how you know this. I'd like to know where you get all your imperical data. And, if it's as reliable as some of your other information - it's CAH CAH.
I watch them through the Railfan Portal. I observe what handles they use during a brake application and the needles on the brake pressure guages. I have never once observed them making a dynamic brake application.
What you mean is, you can't tell exactly what the engineer is doing, nor can you judge how the controller is acting because you're not under the train watching the cams move, nor are you watching the ammeter.
-Hank
The controler has about 4 run possitions, a nutral position and several brake possitions. I have never wittnessed the controler venture over onto the brake side nor has the train ever slowed without a air pressure increase in the brake cylinders.
Sounds like you really have not a clue. What locomotive has 4 power positions? Even with dynamic brake - with inshot - there is air in the brake cylinder. it sounds like you don't know when dynamic is on and when it's not. Now I don't expect you to believe this but you'd probably benifit from listening to people who do know what they are talking about.
What locomotive has 4 power positions?
Jeff H has, check message 232070 and take a look at the e-mail I sent you and tell me what you see.
Now I don't expect you to believe this but you'd probably benifit from listening to people who do know what they are talking about.
Then show me some! Do you operate or have you ever operated an NJT or SEPTA MU train? Has anyone on this Message Board?
I received an extremely blurry picture of what appears to be
the cab of an Arrow MU car. No way I can read any of the markings.
Sorry, it's the best pic I had, but you can clearly make out about 4-6 notches on either side. I was just hoping it might jog your memory.
Are you sure they're notches, and not support structure?You know what the controls of a car are, so you're in the back seat right behind me. You're peering over my right shoulder. You see the speedometer move up and down, and you can see my right leg moving.
How do you know what I'm doing with my right leg from that point of view? Am I stepping on the brake while the car is accelerating? Am I braking hard? Soft? Am I coasting with my foot off the brake and the accelerator? Is my vehicle being controlled remotely? What gear is the transmission in? The display simply says 'D'. Do you know what the tranny is doing?
Of course you don't. You can't see EXACTLY what each of these things is doing.
-Hank
You can count the clicks as the driver moves the controler about. I have noticed about 4 definite power positions.
As the responses to this post will likely indicate, yours truly is among the least qualified to respond to your specific question. However, let me try to answer your question in layman's terms.
In an MU train, we can regard the entire train as one vehicle. That is, all the cars brake in the same way at the same time. Thus, whenever the operator applies the brakes, every car in the train should behave the same way. Braking considerations in all trains are different from our familiar automobiles. Braking has to be planned on a train, and that planning becomes a series of habits that is characteristic of a qualified and skilled operator. Every type of equipment and every normal stop has its own ideosyncracies.
Train operation with a locomotive or locomotives is a different ballpark. That will be covered in my next response.
Part 3. When running a train, even a passenger train, with a locomotive, stopping requires great thought, and proper stopping requires substantial practice. This is why locomotive engineers are beyond having "common skills". Let us assume that a locomotive is leading a passenger train and let us take the simplest of operations -stopping at a passenger station. One has to know the grade of the approaches to the station and whether or not the station is level. The operator has to decide among: having the passenger train stretched out behind the locomotive so that the locomotive and train may begin to move simultaneously out of the station after the stop(good on the flats if the train is light enough, but not good on grades), having the train bunched against the locomotive so that it literally, but almost imperceptibly, starts one car at a time; or having the train and the locomotive stop simultaneously, without regard as to how the train will go into forward motion. This option is extremly rare. When the train is to be stretched out, the train brakes are applied in the final stop but the independent brake is not in the final instance. In fact, the locomotive may be in Run 1 until the train's stop almost makes the engine stall. You'll hear the electrical breakers pop loudly before the near stall. In the second instance, the independent brake stops the train with the cars pushing the locomotive, and just enough pressure is put into the train brakes to prevent the cars from bouncing into the locomotive when it stops and then bouncing backwards a bit after the "collision". Passengers do not like that, since the train bounces back slightly as they begin to get off! The third instance, rare indeed, is when both independent and train brakes are applied as evenly as possible and the train stops almost like an MU. In summary, the use of the two braking systems requires great sensitivity and long training. Perhaps someone else will post about the situation when the locomotive is pushing the train. That's just as interesting! Peace!
Of course, in the case of operation from a 'cab-car' on a 'push-pull' train, this is moot. I have not seen any cab car with an independent brake or an engine brake.
Well Passenger cars have tightlock couplers with almost no slack action so you can use uneven braking methods with little effect on the passengers comfort. Secondly, an air brake applications travels 900 feet per second so for short commuter trains any trainline reductions will affect all the cars at basically the same time.
"Secondly, an air brake applications travels 900 feet per second"
Can you document this? Where did you get this number" Are you sure that you are not confusing it with the speed of sound? Sounds just a tad fast to me.........
That sounds about right for the propagation of the pressure wave through the brake pipe or S.A.P., but you have to allow time for the control valves to operate mechanically, as well.
In this case, I really do not know the answer. I would love to see a source of this information. However, if this is correct, why would the TA even bother with electric brake on a 500' train?
Tuch said so in a Hot Times on the High Iron newsletter. He was describing a grade crossing accident and what happened when he threw his train into emergency at 45 mph. It wasn't exactly 900 fps, but something like 97something I think. He was illustraiting the run in of slack principle.
On my trip I saw many small interlockings having punch pannels. Many of the subway lines are going CTC. With modern CTC it is just as easy to plug the punch pannel into the big computer system and make things completely automated as it is to have a dispatcher watch for a fhashing light. As the automatic method is easier most modern CTC installations on the NYCS would be automatic. Granted I have mo numbers, but from what I have seen and read a good deal of the interlockings are automatic.
No, he's not correct. That would be the speed of an air pressure
change in an unconstricted volume (such as open air), i.e. the
speed of sound. The rate of travel through a pipe with an
effective average diameter of 1 inch is much, much slower. It's
a fluid mechanics type of thing. Empirically, for a 10-car train,
it takes 5-7 seconds for a 20 pound reduction to equalize.
Thank you Jeff. That sounds more like what I had in mind.
Bah! Such a slow rate would make air brakes almost useless. Here is what a real locomotive engineer said "The emergency rate of brake pipe application was advancing through the train at a rate of 900 feet per second. This means that the entire train would not be into the emergency application for about 7 seconds from the time I first dumped the air."
/*Such a slow rate would make air brakes almost useless*/
Whichis why practically every MU built in the US since 1910 or so has some variety of electro-pneumatic braking on it. The LIRRs did, PRRs did, Lacawannas did, I'm sure the new Haven and NYC stuff did too.
AMUE was the hot setup early on, I don't know what later stuff had, but I know the M-2s have digital braking sysems on them (as per the manual)
What I can't get is why Amtrak doesn't have great brakes. Their emergency brake applications feel like a hard stop on an M-1. *yawn*
When were you on an Amtrak train that went BIE?
Oh, plenty of times.
Normally, it's the ASC getting out of wack, panicing, and dumping. This is inevitably followed by a somewhat hard stop, and a 15 minute delay. And no explination as to why we've stopped in the middle of nowhere, of course.
"ASC" - explain?
He means ATC, ASC is specific to the LAIR (although ASC is a form of ATC). Amtrak uses cab signals, cab signals have explicit speeds that go with them. Failure to acknowledge the cab signal or to obey the speeds results in a penalty brake application.
What does ASC stand for? Is is "Automatic Signal Control?"
Automatic Speed Control
Many thanks.
First of all, that's nice. Just because some engineer said something
means it is correct. Do you think every subway motorman is qualified
to discuss armature rewinding?
Triple valves have a "quick action" feature which accelerates the
rate of emergency, but not service applications.
Do you think every subway motorman is qualified
to discuss armature rewinding?
Motormen aren't qualified to obey speed restrictions, but that aside Motorpersons and even more so Engineers are extensively trained and tested on the function and operation of the air brake system. If an engineer says an BIE propigates at 900 fps then I believe it. Now you make a valid point with the quick action feature of which I had forgotten about. Still, from personal observation on Amtrak trains, the train begins to decellerate 1-2 seconds after the Engineer makes a reduction, not 5-7.
"If an engineer says an BIE propigates at 900 fps then I believe it. "
SO IN OTHER WORDS,
DONT CONFUSE ME WITH FACTS - MY MIND IS MADE UP?
I think Jeff is far more qualified than an engineer to know what's happening within the equipment.
It is a fact that engineers would be required to know as it pertains to the basic safe operation of their trains. The "quick action" feature makes a rate of 900fps wholely realistic in an emergency brake application. When a car regocnizes a BIE a valve opens on that car as well and starts dumping more air. A standard application might take quite a bit more time as Jeff reminded me how a BIE is handled differently, but I would still bet dollars to doughnuts that an engineer with 20 years experiance knows how fast his train goes BIE.
YOU ARE A TOTAL MORON. I GIVE UP
Jeff H didn't present any facts to contradict the emergency brake propigation of 900fps. The speed of sound at sea level is at least 1000 fps (700mph).
Well, if you are really interested, I'm sure I could find a reference
on the speed of emergency brake propagation on schedule ABD
equipment, BUT that wasn't really the point of the thread, which
was service applications and the use of electro-pneumatic braking
on passenger trains.
It is too bad that Erik Mr. R46 doesn't post here anymore, as he
had experience overhauling NJT MU cars and he could say for sure
whether they have dynamics or not. What makes you think not, btw?
I think they do (as the controler had reverse positions) but the Engineers never use them. I was just wondering why.
I think NJT electric MUs have a controller handle similar to
the old H&M or the Chicago cars: 3 or 4 points in forward, 2 points
in reverse. The dynamics would not be controlled by that or any
separate lever, they'd be blended with the air brakes. The only
way to tell if dynamics are in use is to look at an ammeter when
the car is braking, or, if your feet and ears are sharp enough,
try to discern whether the motors are generating torque or the brake
shoes are applied.
The process I see is the engineer pushing the red handle, a blast of air, the white pipe needle takes a dip and the red cylinder needle moves up (indicating that the friction brakes are applied). Then the engineer wants a release he moves the handle back into the release position and the air is audibly vented from the cylinders.
Well, assuming the red needle really indicates cylinder pressure
and not volume reservoir pressure, that sounds correct.
But, here's a radical idea: why don't you just ask one of these
NJT engineers what's going on?
I should ask one, but I think they have some sort of job to do. It may or may not involve driving trains to and from their destinations. I'll see what I can do next time I'm at Trenton.
This is part 2. When you have a train with a locomotive, many things change. Locomotives are very heavy. Relative to them, railway cars are not. This is where both the problem, and the judgment of a train engineer, play crucial roles. Since locomotives, alone or Mu'd, are so heavy, they have their own "independent" brakes. Locomotives are so heavy that most switching done in flat yards in this country is done "without air", i.e., only the locomotive (independent) brakes are used to stop trains while they are being switched so that the brakeman does not have to couple up the air hoses and walk miles every day to assure that all cars on a train have working brakes. It just takes too much time and, in very cold weather, creates real problems for the brakeman. Fine!
When a train with a locomotive is out on the road, however, everything changes. The entire train must have continuous air brake connections. Starting such a train is relatively easy should one have the skill and knowledge to understand how trains get into motion. Stopping it, however, is another story. An old railway saying si "Never start what you cannot stop." Wise words. The next post, part 3 will handle that.
The R142's are nice and all. But why are they having so many problems? Y? I will tell you why! Because New York City Subway was not designed for Computers or Subway cars with computers. Ask any Motorman and he will tell you. CBTC might work on the L, but Steel dust and Computers do not mix. Even if they do automate the Entire Subway system, its going to take them so long, that i will be either Retired or Worm food if u know what i mean......
Even if they do manage to go faster than the redbirds, it takes them a little while. But Alot of R142s were slowed down recently. I rode 6310 last week as a 2 express, we had all green, no timers and we only hit 40. What is that!!!!!
A Redbird can do better than 40 anyday!
well... i dunno about what you said but I do agree. The redbirds did their job and are still doing it. Why replace perfectly functional cars? why doesn't the MTA fix its dilapidated stations instead?
Roy
>>>Why replace perfectly functional cars?<<<
Perhaps because they're not perfect, barely functioning, forty, and rusting.
The redbirds are still far more dependable then the more fragile r142"s. Rust can be scrapped and painted over. Some day in the near future when the R142"s computers are going haywire. They will need the redbirds but theyn will be on the bottom of the ocean. The MTA makes no sense.
"The redbirds are still far more dependable then the more fragile r142"s."
And you know this exactly how, Michael?
This discussion is getting inane and the arguments posed show a complete lack of understanding about what is going on."
How do you measure dependability? The redbirds are not more dependable by any acceptable standard. Let me tell you about the real world, Mike.
In the real world a Redbird with a dead motor will run. An R-142 under warranty will not.
A Redbird with a cut out door will run - the R-142 will not.
A redbird with no PA will remain in service but the R-142 will be pulled off the road.
You won't find an R-142 in service with a 3-4" gap between door panels
Why,Michael? Because the car is under warranty and the vendor and TA want to investigate the problem ASAP. It may be that this is an isolated incident or it may lead to the discovery of a need for a fleet-wide mod. It may show a better component is needed.
During the R-46 overhaul program, after the first set of cars was accepted from Morrison Knudsen, and they passed their qualifying tests, there were over 131 field modifications performed on the fleet - that's after the overhaul. The modifications, called FMIs, were the result of just such analysis. Those modifications were equally responsible for the R-46s impressive 100,000+ mile MDBF. Such investigations and mods must be timely in order to hold the vendor accountable.
The R-142s are not fragile. They are going through the same growing pains every rail-fleet goes through. If you want to know which cars are not dependible, if you want to ssee cars that are fragile, just look at the redbirds. Ride the #7 and look at the gaps between the door panels when they are closed. Listen to the creaking and knocking from the draft gear due to worn trunions. Look at the bodies that have virtually corroded off the frames. Let's try to look at this like adults, guys.
I think we should end this argument until the R-142s are in service for a few years. Then we'll know.
You need to be discussing it with adults first. You also have to have a discussion group that understands that bonsai kittens are not real. The dumbing-down of the Internet continues.
-Hank
hahhaahahhah - care to join me in a few good man fight to raise the standards?
I need all the help I can get in an age where people will delete system files because someone forwards them an email that says its a virus.
In the real world a Redbird with a dead motor will run. An R-142 under warranty will not.
A Redbird with a cut out door will run - the R-142 will not.
A redbird with no PA will remain in service but the R-142 will be pulled off the road.
You won't find an R-142 in service with a 3-4" gap between door panels
What do you expect the MDBF and availability would be, if the entire fleet were subject to such criteria?
Those are two hard questions to answer. I will say that in my shop, we do not knowingly run defective cars. I'm fortunate that the 3 other managers I work with all share that philosophy. When a defect is reported, we make every effort to get the train off the road so that it can be corrected. Even as such, we,re able to maintain adequate availability through planning and proper allocation of resources (sounds like I copied it from a text book).
The MDBF question is a little tricky because MDBF is calculated based on delays to service due to Car Equipment failure. In many (if not most) cases, a mechanical defect will not necessitate the train be removed from service immediately nor will it result in a delay. If the subject train is permitted to continue to its terminal (with the defect), arrives on time, and is swapped for a good train, there is no charge against car equipment and MDBF is not negatively affected. Again, it has as much to do with good management & good supervision as it does good equipment.
Now, I know that you have many negative things to say about MDBF. In part, you are correct. The statistical relavance of the absolute value is not all that meaningful. However, if you use it as a relative number to compare the performance of one fleet vs another or one shop vs another, it is a good tool to have.
we,re able to maintain adequate availability through planning and proper allocation of resources (sounds like I copied it from a text book).
Did you mention that the text book planning methodology is to reduce service levels so that there is adequate availability? :-)
The statistical relavence of the absolute value is not all that meaningful. However, if you use it as a relative number to compare the performance of one fleet vs another or one shop vs another, it is a good tool to have.
There are many aspects that would determine whether or not a certain measure is useful or not. One such aspect would be the relevance of the statistic to what one wants to compare. The description that you gave stated that only defects that cause delays are counted. This means that this is not a pure statistic for an aspect of measuring mechanical integrity. One could conceive of circumstances wherein the Concourse Yard's high MDBF values might have less to do with the quality of maintenance and more to do with the willingness of dispatchers to let faulty equipment run to the end of the line.
Another aspect would be that the same definitions apply universally among the various different equipment types, and shops that are to be compared. You've also stated that the R142's are being held to a higher standard during their warranty period.
The point that caused goosebumps was that cars with dead motors are not removed from service. Motors are also brakes. I'd also think that with the current passenger load levels cars with an inoperative door should also be removed from service. That's why I posed the question regarding how much worse the fleet reliability figures be, if the cars were subject to a "white glove" inspection.
"One could conceive of circumstances wherein the Concourse Yard's high MDBF values might have less to do with the quality of maintenance and more to do with the willingness of dispatchers to let faulty equipment run to the end of the line."
True, and that is not inherently a bad practice. If the defect involved does not compromise safety, speed or comfort, there is no reason to pull a train out of service to deal with it. It can wait.
Airlines commonly fly airplanes with defective equipment and continue flights when something breaks. If the toaster ovens burned the Pop Tarts midflight, you don't worry about it. On the other hand, if the defect has anything to do with safety, federal law mandates that you don't fly before you fix it.
Let me take issue with two points you made.
"The point that caused goosebumps was that cars with dead motors are not removed from service. Motors are also brakes."
This is not true. A car could have an inoperative propulsion system and brake will still brake with the same braking rate of all other cars in the consist. Dynamic brake substitutes for a pneumatic brake at speeds in excess of 5 MPH. However, dynamic brake also activates a device known as a lock-out magnet. The lock-out magnet prevents the pneumatic brake from being applied while the dynamic brake is active. No dynamic brake, no lock-out - you have a pneumatic brake. The dynamic brake is also calibrated by the pneunamic brake so the two are equivalent. Hence, a train operator would not know whether any car in the consist is taking pneumatic brake or a dynamic brake.
"One could conceive of circumstances wherein the Concourse Yard's high MDBF values might have less to do with the quality of maintenance and more to do with the willingness of dispatchers to let faulty equipment run to the end of the line. "
Not willingness as much as having the option. If the mechanical defect is of such a nature that it does not compromise safety or schedule, it's to the customer's benifit that the train remain in service and that, after all, is why we are here. This, to be sure, is a function of good management in that we've made our supervisors aware of alternatives to meet our goals effectively.
Take for example one that comes up very frequently - No windshield wiper! Do you run a train without a windshield wiper? Yes if the wiper is on the rear of the train. Yes if the weather does not call for a wiper. Would you advocate removal of the train for such a defect? Again, the MDBF may be statistically skewed. However, if all shops are playing by the same rules, MDBF is a good relative measurement of how well a line or shop is managed. At the same time, it also is a good relative indicator of the quality of the maintenance done.
I don't mind MDBF because the quantitative measure, however imperfect, matches the anectdotal evidence I have experienced riding the trains most days for 16 years.
To me the real question of car availability is the number of spares. it seems that, perhaps in order to do all the routine maintenance that must be done, the TA is keeping more cars off the road at peak. True? Of course, the number of car is also down.
Didn't someone from Philly mention that in the old days you had back to back headways with every car in the barn out on the road during rush hours? Not so in NY today.
I wonder if there is a way to schedule all the maintenance and keep back fewer spares.
What's all this fleet warrenty carp. Back in the day they would build something called a "prototype" and then test this "prototype" for a year or two until everything was working and then "duplicate" the "prototype". This way you didn't have to BANKRUPT the car maker with nitpicky warrenty repairs. I don't remember the PRR having to send the J1's back to Lima for warrenty fixes.
You know, the NYCS should really consider opening up an in house car building plant. Make their own stuff and stuff for other transit systems.
>>What's all this fleet warrenty carp. Back in the day they would build something called a "prototype" and then test this "prototype" for a year or two until everything was working and then "duplicate" the "prototype". This way you didn't have to BANKRUPT the car maker with nitpicky warrenty repairs. I don't remember the PRR having to send the J1's back to Lima for warrenty fixes.<<
You know, they do the same thing with cars. They build a prototype model and test it, sometimes for a whole year. Then the go into production models. Still, prototypes can't get all the problems, especially since the production model differs from the prototype most times. An oldsmobile SUV (the last new make of Olds to be produced) prototype had been tested for months, and then they tested a few production models. Still, all this testing had not turned up a computer flaw that forced a production model test car's computer to malfunction.
The R-142's are not exact duplicates of the R-110a, and that's good. Did you see the MDBF's on both the R-110's? They were prototypes that tested the basic systems. But now, the production models follow a different blueprint.
Either way, the R-142's are much better than the redbirds. And, the sole argument for keeping them seems to be that all the tourists on this board want their sacred railfan windows. When the R-142's get the kinks worked out, they'll be much better than the redbirds, which are collecting rust. For anyone who does not know, rust leads to corrosion. Corrosion is a deterioriation of the carbody. You cannot replace a car's carbody.
>>You know, the NYCS should really consider opening up an in house car building plant. Make their own stuff and stuff for other transit systems.<<
After comparing the Coney Island R-42 re-builds to the outside vendor R-42 rebuilds, i'd have to say that'd be a bad idea.
rust leads to corrosion
Rust IS corrostion, it doesn't lead to it. That rust used to be the body of the train, now it's flaking away.
Well, for the persnickety, rust is the end result of corrosion once it's succeeded. Minor point though ... pity what they're planning to do with the redbirds though ... they could have made a LOT of cassette tapes out of all that rust. :)
But it's not the same...
-Hank
The TA puts into it's contracts that if 5% of any component fails during the warranty period it is considered a fleet defect. The solution is then mutually negotiated. If that's crap - you know even less about business than you know about trains.
I know that defective cars put St. Loius Car out of bussiness and I think that something simmilar did the same to Budd.
Today everything is always getting sent back for warrenty work (ACELA's, DM/DE-30's, etc, etc) and you know that it ain't cheap. You never saw this with the old time builders like Alco, Baldwin and Lima and you still don't see it with GE and EMD freight locos. If they just did some descent pre-production testing and used descent parts and left out some hi-tech bells and whistles maybe passenger locomotive/car manufacture could be profitable again.
You never saw this with the old time builders like Alco, Baldwin and Lima and you still don't see it with GE and EMD freight locos.
Wrong. They all had problems - it's just that they were before your time. Those of us old enough to remember...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. I was going to bite my tongue on the Alco piece ... sure have seen enough of them as hulks up here near where they were made. D&H bought a lot of them as did NYCRR ... not many of them survived very long and as much as Alco was a local shop, they did turn out a lot of ... ummm ... not so long lasting engines. The history of continuing blunders as Alco sunk to its demise are well documented.
At the same time, I think some of us are also being a bit harsh on Mike. It's one thing to correct and amplify, we don't really need to beat him up though, do we?
Yes some models had problems, but if some unit you bought turned out to be a flop the RR didn't go crying to the builder to fix it under some warrenty. The railroads would accept and try out demonstrator units and note how various models did on other railroads. They bought what worked and ditched what didn't. The current mentality is to buy a fleet and send it all back when it dosen't work. Part of the problem is how every transit car has to be custom designed. The builders should design the cars and market them. If you need a car you look through the catalogue, if you're needs are not met you look through the catalogue again.
Yes, the railroads tested demonstrators and observed how well other roads did with certain models, but there was also a lot of "let's see what happens" with the new models. Standardization really never caught on, even with the freight roads; yes, there were a gazillion GP-9s and GP-38s built, but there weren't more than a couple hundred built the same way - and that's with a huge market. The subway market is a lot smaller, and each system is unique. And warranty claims plagued the locomotive builders as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>Yes some models had problems, but if some unit you bought turned out to be a flop the RR didn't go crying to the builder to fix it under some warrenty. The railroads would accept and try out demonstrator units and note how various models did on other railroads.<<
You know what mike? This is ridiculous. If I make something for you and it doesn't work you should be able to return it. That's a good system. Otherwise you could get stuck with a pile of crap. It forces the contractor to try and build something right the first time around. I mean, what's your problem with this? Do you have some vendetta against the warranty system?
>>Part of the problem is how every transit car has to be custom designed. The builders should design the cars and market them. If you need a car you look through the catalogue, if you're needs are not met you look through the catalogue again.<<
I find this amusing for 2 reasons:
1. This might work if you were selling to markets which all had the same needs. But unfortunately, you aren't. And I know that this will probably amaze you, but a subway is not a freight railroad. You can't just pack your cargo in a boxcar and ship it off.
2. If I recall correctly, contractors bid on making the cars. If they don't want to make quality cars, they don't have to bid.
I don't like the current warrenty system as it is manifesting itself with subway cars. Having a blanket "we'll fix anything that brakes" agreement on a fleet of virtually untested cars is stupid. Builders go around trying to submit the lowest bid to get the contract and then are held responsible when their lowest cost car breaks down. No wonder nobody wants to get into the subway car bussiness.
A better plan would be for the builder would provide a prototype and once it is satisfactory they would be obligated to provide duplicates of the prototype. If anything goes wrong it would be the TA's falut for NOT throughly testing the prototype.
Another plan would be to provide a car that meets specifacations which would include a minimum MTBF and MTBO. In both cases failure to meet the specs would result in monitary damage compensation. This way is a lot easier than having to pull large numbers of cars out of service for investigations. With the prototype model you would even have real world data for the MTBF and MTBO.
I also see a devoloping blur in the line between failure and maintainence. Sometime things just happen to be high maintainence. Like if the motors burn out because you need to keep oiling them alot, that's your problem.
My bigget problem is why does the TA(and others) keep sending stuff back to the builder. It's not like the car dealership is right down the block. Dosen't the TA have these things called "shops" where they can do things like make repairs? Look at PATCO, they don't have any money and they work wonders in their shop. Why dosen't the LIAR cycle it's DE/DM's through it's own shop a few at a time to avoid the service disruption caused by having to send them back to Super Steel. The builder should pay the TA the cost of getting it fixed wherever they want.
This whole system is set up so that things go FUBAR. The TA should be able to buy a fleet of reliable, bug free cars. Not buy a fleet and have to fix the problems en route.
My bigget problem is why does the TA(and others) keep sending stuff back to the builder. It's not
like the car dealership is right down the block. Dosen't the TA have these things called "shops"
where they can do things like make repairs
You misunderstand the application of the word warranty to new cars.
When there is a problem with a new car and that problem is covered
under warranty, the TA does not have to gather all of the original
packing materials and send the car back to the manufacturer
together with a dated receipt. Once the product costs over one
million dollars, the manufacturer comes to you.
I was just thrown because the LIAR was sending their new units back to Super Steel for fixing, but I guess that was because they sold their in house repair shoppe along with their paint shoppe.
They sent them back because the manufacturer is better equipped to repair the problem. Do you even know what it is? Maybe it requires complete disassembly of the carbody, or requires a special process, such as stainless welding, that the manufacturer is better equipped to make.
In any case, they units are less than three years old. MTA should not have to pay for any repairs to them that fall outside of normal maintainance.
-Hank
TA does not have to gather all of the original
packing materials and send the car back to the manufacturer
together with a dated receipt.
I'll bet that the R-142's came in one hellofa box. I'll also bet that some shoppe foreman's kid got a really cool present on day.
What do they do with all the Styrofoam?
ll bet that the R-142's came in one hellofa box. I'll also bet that some shoppe foreman's kid got a really cool present on day.
What do they do with all the Styrofoam? ..........................LOL..!!!!!!
What do they do with all the Styrofoam?...... @ ANSWER !! THEY ARE MADE OUT OF STYROFOAM !!
Dont believe me!, just ask { heypaul }........... he has proff of this !!! he he he he he he !! LOL !!!
I am not picking on you jersey mike !!! just the R-142s !!
Heh. That's an amusing image you painted there. Wonder if there's a giant kid sitting at the end of the yard who picks up the cars, wraps them in bags, dumps in huge peanuts and places sealing tape around the boxes. Don't mind me, in a strange mood watching "Thomas and the Magic Railroad" on Starz2 east ...
How is that movie? I heard they made it at Strassburg. In fact they still have the Thomas locomotive all duded up as I was there not two weeks ago. You should have seen the lines! Unrealistic view of railroads or not it sure has gotten the little kids interested in them. It's a shame that the SBGRR had to butcher their poor defenceless 0-6-0 Switcher to make Thomas. I hope they turn it back after the craze wears off.
So go on, give us all a Railfan Review and post it as a new thread.
Heh. Syrupy, designed ONLY for kids ... hey, what can I say? I live upstate. Up here you can WATCH "Thomas the tank engine" and no one's gonna pants ya for admitting it. :)
What gets me is that the ONLY "model shop" we had up here was "Trains unlimited" which went out of business about a year ago. More Thomas than you could PUKE on ... but that's what sold. Subway cars? Well, never heard of them. What would you POSSIBLY want subway cars for? We do RAILROAD, not toys ... and ya wonder how I ended up with a Kato set on my desk. :)
I *dare* any railroad ANYWHERE to maintain the headways NYCTA does every day, even with people working on the tracks as the "railroad" continues to operate. I've told my Hamtrak, ChickenSheetExp (former Gonerail) and CP buddies what life was like in the subways ... once they picked up their jaws off the floor, I never heard a disparaging word again ... except where they sold Thomas the flipping blue toy. :)
PS: Remember to rate it in terms of signal aspects. STOP being the worst and CLEAR being the best. The speed refers to how good the movie was and the condition refers to the railfan content. For example a rating of approach medium would mean a marginal film with a descent amount of railfan content.
Bite me ... heh. We've got a double red, tripper up, and this movie just blew through it ... seriously, it was syruppy CUTE ... being male (last time I checked) it was TOO cute ... but "diesel" got his just deserts while "Lady" the mystical engine saved the day ... and conductor managed to suck enough (ahem) "gold dust" back into his pipe to go to jail for 25-50 ... OK? Happy?
It's *CUTE* ... that's about it. Sometimes, just like senseless crime, there's senseless movies ... the KIDS (6 and under) would love it EVEN IF they didn't summer in Brighton (and I *don't* mean near Bath Beach) ...
I give it TWO thumbs up ... what the thumbs are up is up to you. :)
"Yes some models had problems, but if some unit you bought turned out to be a flop the RR didn't go crying to the builder to fix it under some warrenty."
I get it now! You are trying to post things that make us all think you are a complete moron. hahhaahah - you sure had me going. Could you magine any idiot buying anything - having it fail and then saying I won't hold the manufacturer responsible for the inferior junk. Or if GE built a microwave oven that caused house-fires, people are killed and surviving family members say "it's just our bad luck". Boy Mike, you sure did have me going. Then again, I should have realized that you couldn't be that stupid.
My point is that there's a differance between a microwave that blows up or one that sets nearby oily rags on fire. If you car door falls off that's one thing, but if it can easily come off, that's your problem. If the T/O sometimes has to jump up and down three times before the train takes power that is not a failure. I also don't think that a failure caused by the specific operating charactics of the subway should be covered under warrenty.
I think we've gone as far as I care to discussing this with you. You obviously have no concept of a business contract or living up to one.
Yes they should. Subway cars are custom-built products. The buyer presents a set of specifications to potential manufacturers, and they decide if they can do the job, and how much it will cost them to do the job. If they accept the job by deciding to bid on it, and the buyer accepts that bid, the buyer has the expectation that the product will MEET OR EXCEED their specifications. If it doesn't, it is up to the manufacturer to make the necessary fixes so they do. When you order 1000 of a large item, such as a locomotive, automobile, manufactured home, or railcar, they're not all delivered simultaneously. The buyer takes the first few, inspects, and then starts to put it through the duty cycle it is supposed to meet, based on the specifaction accepted (by their bid) by the manufacturer. As faults are noted, corrections are made. Those corrections are sent to the plant where the componant was built, and fixes are made that avoid those problems in future units. In this way, the earliest units delivered will spend the most time out of service, and the later units will have fewer issues as a result. Some things, like fatigue, early wear, and stress damage can't be seen until a certain amount of service time is accumulated. You can't determine that a bearing will fail if exposed to rain on the 50th day of continuous service unless you reach that point. And it should not, because you specified how long componants should last and the conditions those componants would be used in.
-Hank
Mike, have the wood-peckers left anything in your head? Let me explain this to you. The NYCT posts specifications for a new railcar. In those specifications, there are provisions for:
materials to be used!
Size and other specifications.
Delivery timetables.
Performance benchmarks.
warranty criteria.
And Price.
The builder agrees to the provisions of the contract just as the TA agrees to the price. If the product does not meet the performance benchmarks or the car fails to live up to the warranty criteria, why is pursuing the warranty so bad? Please mike, take a little advice. Plug the holes, start wearing a football helmet, stay inside and hope you heal.
Please allow me to defend Mike. I saw his fabled Mustang today; its license plate has my initials on it. Mike's hair has gotten a bit long again, and woodpeckers would have a great deal of difficulty getting through. Conversely, if some have nested in there, they would be trapped, and could continue to peck away.
Ok, I know I need a haircut, you don't need to rub it in. I'm going to get one before I go back to CT on the 8th. Hey, would you be up for a trip to CP-JERSEY some time next week?
Forgive my impatience. I just can't believe that someone can post such stupidity on such a consistant basis - Mustang or no mustang.
A Warrenty is not something a builder expects to deliver on. It is was they wouldn't offer it. Most products people buy don't need to be fixed under warrenty and are not recalled, including road vehicles. Why are builders seemingly unable to offer a subway car that works? Or...maybe they do in fact wotk and the TA is abusing the warrenty system.
YOU ARE A TOTAL MORON. i GIVE UP.
I like to watch BIRDS, Jerky, can I photograph the back of your head, those baby Downy Woodpeckers are C*U*T*E when they stick their little heads out of their hole.
To the contrary. A WARRANTY is indeed something the manufacturer expects to deliver on. Some problems are small issues, such as cosmetic damage to interior trim (My new car needed a new dash because of a stain on the dashboard on delivery), and others are major safety issues, like misaligned brake calipers that can fail prematurely, to major component failures like Saturn had when they introduced their first model (used a coolant that was corrosive to certain engine components). That's why they offer it, that's why they have a massive insurance policy to cover the cost of the repair of a widespread failure, such as Firestone tires or rear window glass that was poorly installed on your most popular passenger vehicle. (Both items that Ford is working on)
-Hank
I thought it was a way to promote quality. You offer a warrenty because your product will rarely need it. It's a way to signal to the consumer how good your product is.
Same thing. Nothing ever manufacturered has ever been completely trouble-free in every iteration, especially something as complex as a self-propelled rail car or automobile.
A certain level of failure is expected, and corrected as necessary.
Main Entry: war·ran·ty
Pronunciation: 'wor-&n-tE, 'wär-
Function: noun
3 : a usually written guarantee of the integrity of a product and of the maker's responsibility for the repair or replacement of defective parts
-Hank
touche
touche'
I can get the marl over the e
avid
How about touchè?
Actually, it’s touché (acute accent).
John
Merci. I had a 50-50 chance.
Mike, I got the bitmap you sent me. It was not very clear and didn't show anything definitive. That's okay. I'm going to try to explain this to you and I hope you'll, at least, read my explanation through.
I'm going to assume that we're going to talk exclusively about MU cars where each car has it's own traction system. The engineer/motorman has no independent control over dynamic brake vs pneumatic brake. When he pulls for a brake, the train gives him one or the other, depending on numerous factors. The engineer has the option of, and some do, cut out the dynamic brake circuit breaker in the operating motor (the car from which they operate). This will defeat the dynamic brake in only that car. Some like the feel of the train better that way. However, unless they walk the entire train and repeat the process in each car, the other cars will still have dynamic brake.
NJT uses composition brake shoes as does the LIRR. Anyone who is around rail equipment on a regular basis will tell you that you can tell the state of the dynamic braking by the smell coming from under the cars. It's a 'no-brainer' - even for the layman. I'm at Penn Station every day. I've never smelled overheated shoes on the NJT trains. That means that every time I've been at penn Station, the cars have had operative dynamic brake.
Lastly, as for what you allege about brake cylinder pressure - consider this. Assuming you know which needle on which gauge is indicating brake cylinder air, there are far more plausible explanations for what you see that what you assume is happening.
Brake cylinder pressure is 'car-specific'. What you see in the head car may not and usually will not be replicated trainline. Car loads and other factors will cause this reading to vary. If the motorman/engineer cuts out the dyn. brake, you will see brake cylinder brake pressure in that car but that has no relevance to the rest of the train. Other cars will likely be braking normally. In addition, most properties use dynamic brake with inshot. Meaning even in dynamic brake 5-10 or even 15 PSI of brake cylinder pressure may be applied during dynamic brake, to keep the shoes against the wheels and keep them warm for more uniform braking.
In summary, what you see in the operating cab:
Indicates only what is happening in that car. Brake cylinder pressures in other cars, dynamic brake currents in other cars, will vary.
The engineer/motorman has no independent way to operate without dynamic brake. It is pre-determined by the design of the equipment.
Any RR person and even a layman can tell by the odor if the dynamic brake is cut out.
Most motormen/engineers know little more about the mechanical operation of their train than the average driver knows about how an automatic transmission or fuel injection work. If you ask an engineer, take his answer with a grain of salt.
If you ask a motor instructor, his answer may be a bit more knowledgable.
Now, I think I have given you a well thought-out, more-reasonable theory of what you think is happening. I hope that you will give it some thought.
Good answer, a few more quick questions. Can the dynimic brakes be controled from the air-brake handle? I am familliar with the operation of one handle controls where you notch into a level of braking and the control system applies the air or dynamic brakes as needed. Many subway cars use this system. My contention is with the two handle control cars where you have your throttle and a seperate, red, air-brake handle. I always thought that the throttle controled the dynamic and the big red handle controled the air brakes. Let's say I'm on the R7 and we gey up to track speed (70-80) and we're comming up on a station and "WOOOOSH", the Engineer starts dumping air and the train starts to slow down. This could be part of some elaboriate syste, where a pipe reduction triggers some hybrid dynamic/air system like in a subway car. However, all thoughout the reduction there is a constant pressure in the brake cylinders, ever as the train slows past the point where dymanics begin to fade out.
I noticed the same type of thing on a /Q\ train. The T/O would apply power and then work the red handle to dump air and slow down. Of course thos T/O looked as though he predated dynamic braking so it might have just been his personal preferance.
On PATCO trains, which use the same sort of WABCO brake guage, you'll feel the train decellerating (rather severely) and the brake cylinder pressure will be reading a flat zero. That is a clear use of dynamic brakes.
BTW, do those composite shoes smell something like home heating oil?
"Can the dynimic brakes be controled from the air-brake handle?"
As I said, on all of the equipment I've seen, the engineer requests a broke. The train answer's the request with either pneumatic brake or dynamic brake or both - depending on the design criteria of the car. I have never seen a situation where the engineer gets to choose.
"This could be part of some elaboriate syste, where a pipe reduction triggers some hybrid dynamic/air system like in a subway car. However, all thoughout the reduction there is a constant pressure in the brake cylinders, ever as the train slows past the point where dymanics begin to fade out."
The propulsion on an MU car is elaborate. The engineer requests a brake either through a brake pipe reduction or an increase in straight air on smee equipment. The air brake system sets up to stop the train. As it does, the DBRT (Dynamic Brake Rate Transducer) on GE propulsion or an equivlent on the competition, demands a dynamic brake equivalent to the requested pneumatic one. This occurs on any car with an operating dynamic brake. At that same time, the dynamic current energizes a magnet valve (Lock-Out magnet valve) that locks out any brake cylinder air. If not you'd have an air brake and a dynamic brake, summed and double the original request.
As I said, on all of the equipment I've seen, the engineer requests a broke. The train answer's the request with either pneumatic brake or dynamic brake or both - depending on the design criteria of the car. I have never seen a situation where the engineer gets to choose.
Unless something has changed, on railroad locomotives the dynamics are controled via the throttle handle or sometimes via a seperate handle. For example your throttle could have 17 positions, brake 8 -> idle -> run 8 or have a switch that changes the throttle from run to brake. This makes sence as the dynamic system has a lot in common with the run system, as opposed to the air brake system.
When was the control system you described first used? I am observing 1975 vintage MU contol systems.
Look Mike, let's get your act together. Do you want to talk about locomotives or MUs? You're showing me a picture of an MU cab. I gave you a detailed explanation of dynamic brake in MU equipment. Now you're answering me about locomotives. What is the story mike? Are you not capable of an intelligent conversation? Let's get it together, guy!!!
I'm not an expert on modern NJT equipment. One way to introduce
dynamic braking on traditional "automatic" air brake systems, i.e.
those in which the brakes are applied by taking a reduction in the
brake pipe from the nominal (70, 90 or 110 psi) pressure, is as
follows: Take the air line which would normally go from the
triple (aka control) valve to the cylinders and intercept it.
Replace the cylinders with a volume reservoir of equal volume to
the brake cylinders. Then introduce a relay valve which relays
air to the cylinders, adjusting for load weight. Use a lockout
and inshot valve to hold off the air from the cylinders when
dynamic brakes are working, except for a small amount of inshot
air. Hook a pressure transducer to the volume reservoir to control
the dynamic brake current based on brake call.
That's a theory. I don't have any technical drawings, specs etc.
for those cars. I very rarely ride on NJT. Next time you're near
a cab, why not take a close look and see what those other notches
say. Are they brake notches or backup (reverse) notches?
I always thought it was TUSHEE.
-Hank :)
My Commador 64 has its limmits, I'm trying!
avid
It's gotta be better than my Altaire 8086...
Peace,
ANDEE
Anything's better than the Univac I in the basement here.
-Robert King
I will bet that the R-142's came in one hell of a box. !! Made out of cheeep plastic syran wrap etc... Styrofoam !!
What do they do with all the Styrofoam? ..........................LOL..!!!!!! &
What do they do with all the Styrofoam?...... @ ANSWER !! THE R-142s ARE MADE OUT OF STYROFOAM !!
Dont believe me!, just ask { heypaul }........... he has proff of this !!! he he he he he he !! LOL !!!
I am not picking on you hank eisenstein .. !!! just the R-142s !!
He has proff? Can I have some too? Sounds tasty.
LOL !! man you dont want to eat any of this nasty stuff !! LOL !!!
It's marshmallow fluff, peanut butter, and iron oxide. Sweet and salty, with a bit of a twang.
-Hank
You're so completely clueless. They use demonstrators to SELL THE PRODUCT TO THE BUYER. THESE units are usually as bug-free as can be. But when you're a large-scale manufacturer of expensive items, you're not going to get every one of them right. A worker doesn't tighten a bolt, and it results in a customer complaint. The manufacturer repairs the problem, and inspects other products for the same defect. That's the way it works in the real world.
You like driving those ancient cars. Ever look up the car you drive on the NHTSA recall web site? The Ford Mustang, since 1966, has had 65 mandated recalls to fix everything from seat-belt retractors to a possible front-wheel bearing failure, to this from the 1967 model year:
POSSIBLE STEERING WHEEL SPOKE BREAKAGE INVOLVING ONE OR MORE OF THE METAL INSERTS WITHIN THE PLASTIC SPOKE. UNDER EXTENDED USAGE THE SEPARATION MAY EXTEND TO ALL THREE METAL INSERTS AND EVENTUALLY AFFECT STEERING CONTROL. (INSPECT AND REPLACE STEERING WHEELS AS NECESSARY.)
-Hank
Yep DEFECTIVE. Some things you don't see until certain things happen. You don't see early fatigue cracks in truck frames until the truck has been in service. You don't see an improperly galvanized gas tank until it fails. That's what a warranty is for. You have the expectation of a product that will function to all of
its specifications, including component lifespans. If it doesn't you get it fixed at the expense of the manufacturer. Why do you think they sell 'refurbished' computers? Intel CPUs have a failure rate of over 1%. That's one in 100 processors that WILL fail.
-Hank
I think you should QA your posts before submitting them. You don't adequately check them for errors. If your school had done DECENT pre-production testing and used DECENT parts and left out the computer training...you wouldn't be needing WARRANTY work.
-Hank
"The redbirds are still far more dependable then the more fragile r142"s."
And you know this exactly how, Michael?
This discussion is getting inane and the arguments posed show a complete lack of understanding about what is going on."
How do you measure dependability? The redbirds are not more dependable by any acceptable standard. Let me tell you about the real world, Mike.
In the real world a Redbird with a dead motor will run. An R-142 under warranty will not.
A Redbird with a cut out door will run - the R-142 will not.
A redbird with no PA will remain in service but the R-142 will be pulled off the road.
You won't find an R-142 in service with a 3-4" gap between door panels
Why,Michael? Because the car is under warranty and the vendor and TA want to investigate the problem ASAP. It may be that this is an isolated incident or it may lead to the discovery of a need for a fleet-wide mod. It may show a better component is needed.
During the R-46 overhaul program, after the first set of cars was accepted from Morrison Knudsen, and they passed their qualifying tests, there were over 131 field modifications performed on the fleet - that's after the overhaul. The modifications, called FMIs, were the result of just such analysis. Those modifications were equally responsible for the R-46s impressive 100,000+ mile MDBF. Such investigations and mods must be timely in order to hold the vendor accountable.
The R-142s are not fragile. They are going through the same growing pains every rail-fleet goes through. If you want to know which cars are not dependible, if you want to see cars that are fragile, just look at the redbirds. Ride the #7 and look at the gaps between the door panels when they are closed. Listen to the creaking and knocking from the draft gear due to worn trunions. Look at the bodies that have virtually corroded off the frames. Let's try to look at this like adults, guys.
>>>And you know this exactly how, Michael?
This discussion is getting inane and the arguments posed show a complete lack of understanding about what is going on."
How do you measure dependability? The redbirds are not more dependable by any acceptable standard. Let me tell you about the real world, Mike.
In the real world a Redbird with a dead motor will run. An R-142 under warranty will not.
A Redbird with a cut out door will run - the R-142 will not.
A redbird with no PA will remain in service but the R-142 will be pulled off the road.
You won't find an R-142 in service with a 3-4" gap between door panels<<<
You should be warned that people may actually use this to further the argument AGAINST the R142s. They'll say, "A redbird can run under any condition! !! An R142 scrap junker won't! ugh ! lol he he he @ !!!!"
Lets end the discussion here. The redbirds are going to davey jones locker. The very expensive R142's will be more reliable after the trial period.
Lets end the discussion here??.... The very expensive R142's will be more reliable after what trial period ??
* Question: what are you smoking ??.......................!
.
Those missing brain cells of yours.
-Hank
my man my man !! speak the real truth !! right on !! ......
Salaam, you wouldn't know the truth if it were on the sidewalk and your knuckles scraped over it.
Not when that rust goes nearly all the way through the subway car bodies, and I've seen a lot of cars on the 2 and 5 lines that look that way. Would you want to drive a car with rust holes in its body? Would you want to fly in a rusty plane? Of course not! If we don't accept rusty cars and planes, then why should we accept rusty trains? The new cars, both the R142s and R142As are back in service and becoming more frequent. Let's give them a chance, could we please?
i agree with you 100 % !
The mta is making perfect sense
-Rust cannot be "scrapped and painted over
-If you scrap the rust, you could not paint- because there would not be anything to paint on
-Having 10 square feet of rust is fragile , not having slight sign problems
The mta is making perfect sense
-Rust cannot be "scrapped and painted over
-If you scrap the rust, you could not paint- because there would not be anything to paint on
-Having 10 square feet of rust is fragile , not having slight sign problems
i agree with you ~!
I agree with this post.
Then I'd have to say that you are as ignorant as the original poster.
No offense meant - of course>
now dude !! you leave SOUTH FERRY ( 9) alone! he is a nice guy I have met him & found him to be so !!
@ so there !!!
Salaam, you know how much I respect your opinion but anyone who says you can paint over the corroded bodies on any of the redbirds, knows not what he's speaking about. By the way, I'm hosting the first 28 redbirds (in my yard) scheduled to make the trip on the new DJL line. Too bad you're not in New York. You could've gotten some really hot pictures
right !! stop making sense !! they cant handle the truth !!
. I rode 6310 last week as a 2 express, we had all green, no timers and we only hit 40. What is that!!!!!
It's 10 MPH faster than 30 MPH. What's your point. What was the posted speed? How do you know what the train speed was unless you were in the cab? If you think the Redbirds are perfectly good cars, you've been inhaling too many fryer-fumes.
First off all lets get something straight! DO NOT KNOCK MY MCDONALDS JOB!!! Second of all, I do appreciate the R142A's and R142s. But lets tell the truth!! The posted speed limit on 7th avenue is 40. Second of all, u can tell the speed of R142's because I can see thru that Railfan window. The speedometer reached 40. The Motorman kept it in Parallel postion and it went no higher than 40! it went down even! Anyways its not even me. Most customers are bi$^%tchin that the R142s and the Motorman complain that they are boring now that they have been slowed down. Also they are too Damn bright! Average customer reaction is "It feels like i am going into an operating room! Anyways the speed limit is usually in the 40s. A Redbird can easily make that. And it doesn't matter wether it is going on a hill either. U can get good speed uptown and downtown! U cannot do that with a R142!
E Train I have a question for you... when I have ridden the R-142/142A's, I have not been able to see through the window to the right to view the speedometer, as the window seems to be coated with a film that lets you see only straight ahead. Same is true with the controller, which on that model I believe is to the right of the motorman. On your trip was the door open so that you could see these things? Or were you on a car that that had a clear window rather than the coated variety?
Excuse me, what exactly ARE the positions on an R142/R142A controller? Where are they? How do you get to the positions?
Does an R-142 even HAVE a parallel position?
My point exactly. I doubt if he knows for sure.
Posted by E to JAMAICA CENTER on Sat Jun 23 17:06:45 2001 Well you see you are making SENSE here where some on this board only seem to make a lot of nonsense ( if you know what i mean ) as you have correctly stated when you rode on the r-142 scrap ready CLUNKERS! ( Like the los angeles red line subway cars & the blue / green line japanese built light rail vehicles )!
Why they did not just copy the rebdird design / r 62 or similar to the r 32 & 38 type of mechanics keep the r-142 simple manual
operation where the OPERATOR controls everything not some outdated breakin down piss assed computer !! ( oh well )
You know things just arent made with the quality and endurance that used to be a long time ago !! REDBIRDS !!!
The Redbirds are GOD! They are the first trains I ever rode, and they'll always be special. My favorites are the Redbirds, the R-32s and the R-38s. I don't really HATE the 142s, but I'm very nostalgic about my subway cars.
The only cars I can honestly say that I HATE are the R-44s and 46s. The 68s are OK, but I'm glad the TA went back to 60 feet, the way it was meant to be, danmit! :) Sorry.
"The Redbirds are GOD!"
Sorry Tony, I'm just trying to comprehend your statement that a subway car is something you worship or pray to. Oh well, I guess you had to be there.
Bill "Newkirk"
The whole point of worship and prayer is self-interest.
Tell me, what has a train done for you lately? You, here on SUBtalk.
The whole point of worship and prayer is self-interest.
Tell me, what has a train done for you lately? You, here on SUBtalk.
A train took me to Baltimore so I could make a pilgrimage to the shrine of the BSM and worship the preserved relics there.
For photographic evidence, right-click here and open the slow downloading pics in a new window while you continue reading subsequent SubTalk messages in your main window.
Anything in the NYC subway is 100 times more reliable than a LI Bus. Even the 44's. Breakdowns galore, one problem yesterday, and another today. (read more in Bustalk)
The old Redbirds only let me down once, whereas LI Bus has let me down more times than I can count on my hands and toes.
I understand you 100% !
I devout Muslim who prays to a piece of red garbage? Salaam, you never cease to amaze me. Maybe Shawwal should be renamed REDBIRD.
A Genuine { OFF TOPIC POST } by the ""train dude"" ( of cource ) !!!
Back to your old "safe-haven" salaam? My post was not off topic at all - in spirit or content. Tony said, "the Redbirds are god." You replied, "I understand you 100%." To which I responded. We are still talking about the diefication of a subway car, are we not? I just wondered how deep your diefication ran. Would you favor devoting a month of the Muslim calendar to it, much like we do "Woman's History Month" now. Maybe you and Tony favor replacing the traditional holiday bird with a redbird. Haul one off to your backyard and carve it up. Fiberglas seats might be ok with gravy if you don't over-melt it.
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, SALAAM - YOU SAID IT - NOW SHOW ME HOW MY POST IS OFF-TOPIC
>>>IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, SALAAM - YOU SAID IT - NOW SHOW ME HOW MY POST IS OFF-TOPIC
Dude: Well, as you know, my personal "take" on Salaam has not been the most positive, but I definitely can see where he is coming from on this one. Salaam posted, in response to Tony's post defending Redbirds and calling them "God": "I understand you 100% ! "
That is Salaam's entire post - no mention of Islam , Allah, or anything religious at all.
In fact, this is Salaam's standard and brief response to nearly any post remotely supporting Redbirds - he almost always just states that he agrees with whatever the previous poster said. I would not be surprised at all if Salaam did not even read Tony's entire post. He may also have just taken the reference of Redbirds as God (if he even saw it) as what it is - deliberate hyperbole for the dramatic effect of supporting his most favorite subway cars. We all know that Salaam is anything but a "devout Muslim".
>>> Would you favor devoting a month of the Muslim calendar to
it, much like we do "Woman's History Month" now.
>>> (earlier post from Dude) I devout Muslim who prays to a piece of red garbage? Salaam, you never cease to amaze me. Maybe Shawwal should be renamed REDBIRD.
Dude: Let's leave Islam out of this discussion. Salaam didn't mention anything remotely Islamic in that one-line post or in any other recent post. He was clearly trying to support his beloved Redbirds.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I agree 100%
TD may not like the redbirds and others may. Just because their ideas dont agree does not give anyone permission to insult anyone. As far as religion goes, it is something that should be left out. It is totally off topic. If TD dont want Salaam to talk about his religion, he sould not talk about Salaam.
right ! & thank you !!
thank you ! we all need to keep this board & everthing we post here if you catch my drift on this :@ ON TRACK & on topic !!
Your brain wasn't designed for computers either. Nor was the telephone system, cable system, or electric system. Protest by packing it baqck in the box it came in, and get yourself a refund. It's the only way to be sure that your brain will always work the way it was designed.
-Hank
Can't return it, Hank! Even though it's never been used, it's been impregnated with french-fry fumes.....
Ride the 2 line often? It's a slow line, even in Manhattan. Why, I don't know. Too many stops, maybe? Could it be that the line from 96th St to Times Square is not particularly straight? No matter what you put on a slow train line, it's not gonna make it faster unless the line itself is physically improved.
Redbirds on the 2 don't do better 40 either. Except maybe in the Clark Street Tunnel. And R142s do better than 40 in that same tunnel too.
I am considering working for Amtrak as an Engineer. Don't quote me yet. Anyways I was wondering Amtrak NY crews don't get to go anywhere do they? Like if a Train goes from NY to Florida, the Crews might get off in washington or Virginia or something? Anywayz I know a manager in the McDonalds I work at, and Her brother is an Amtrak Engineer and he operates the Trains in California? How did he get to do that?
Can someone use the email provided and tell me how this works? How does Amtrak use their Crews?
In many cases, the Amtrak crews are hired by the local railroads, like CSX or Union Pacific whose tracks Amtrak runs on. So find out if her brother was hired by a local West Coast railroad. Since Amtrak operates their own trains in the Northeast, their crews probably don't get to see most of the country.
I am just guessing.
Don't employees get free rides?
I believe that, in some cases, the "Amtrak" crew is, in fact, a CSX or a NS crew operating under contract.
Moreover, please note that outside NEC, Amtrak trains are controlled by freight railroads. For example, an Amtrak train rolling on CSX track in the Carolinas is watched over by the CSX control center in Jacksonville FL.
I guess I could add that [at least in my BN days...perhaps much has changed..I'm going back to the old order and I left BN in l987] the freight RR's have/had seniority districts that crew persons were limited to. For example my original BN seniority was on the Montana-Dakota seniority district..Forsyth MT where I first hired was the farthest west terminal[except for one job out of Billings in that district]and I could work anywhere east to Jamestown ND when/if I could hold a job by seniority. This district also took in the ex-GN line from Minot ND to Glasgow MT; pre-BN merger of course it wouldn't have.
I had to have mountains and finally got my chance to hire on at Livingston kept my rights except seniority..gave up 6 years worth when I had to surrender my original seniority to become permanent Rocky Mountain district.[Billings to Missoula and Great Falls,Havre, Whitefish on the ex-GN]. I'm sure all major RR's worked like this...so we couldn't go anywehere we wanted. Perhaps now some systems have system wide seniority...BTW some BN guys did go to work for Amtrak...they did have their own crews on the Empire Builder for one, and out of Seattle IIRC. Whether Amtrak has nationwide seniority I don't know.
> and I left BN in l987
Hey, Dirtman, what exactly are BN ans L987?
- Lyle Goldman
Here's an example: Take the Three Rivers. There are at least two crew changes that I know of:
The NYP-PHI leg is operated by a NEC crew.
The PHI-HAR leg is operated by a "Keystone" (PennDOT) crew. Most of them live in Central PA and are probably based in Harrisburg, judging from the accents that I grew up with and know so well. This crew change also applies to the NYP-HAR Keystone trains.
There is a crew-change in Harrisburg for the rest of the trip to Chicago. I'm not sure of the ownership and control of the whole route west of Harrisburg (the HAR-PIT leg is NS), but judging from the horrible delays and the maximum-time-on-duty work rules for crews, there must be crew changes between HAR and CHI, perhaps PIT.
You can tell the crew-change locations by the time built into station stops. If there's a "Ar" and "Lv" time in tht time table, chances are your crew is changing. And this was before the mail/express business began.
I have been working hard on a plan that might be able to solve Chinatown's problems with subway service. I have come up with one. I need to know what it looks like on a map. If anyone knows who can make subway maps using the computer I would love it if you or someone can help me. If you are willing to help, reply to the message, or if you know someone who can please reply. I need to see how my plan will look, cause if it looks good I might present it to Community Boards around and in Chinatown.
Thank you
Christopher Rivera
The computer programs "Microsoft Visio" (Windows only) and "CSO ConceptDraw" (Windows and Mac) both have subway map drawing modules.
Or you can use any old object-oriented drawing program. That's how the subway maps here on the site (by m-adler@nycsubway.org ) and the New York Subway Diagaram (by brennan@columbia.edu) were made.
However, if you want them to make a map for you, you'll probably have to pay them.
Chris,
If your ideas in any way involve construction (laying of track, etc) you can stop wasting your time. The MTA isn't going to be receptive.
Besides, even if they were, it would take longer than the 3 years that the services changes are expected to be in effect before the project was studied, approved, restudied (you know the MTA), reapproved, sent out for bid etc, etc, etc.
Yeah, I saw some Redbirds at the 215th St side of the 207th St yard, I was viewing them from the #1 train. Car # 9057, after #9056 went to Washington, cars #7836-7837, #9508-9509, and some others, to name a few, windows taken out, doors misplaced.
Also saw a whole fleet of R142s, about 50 or so cars, sandwiched between some #5 line Redbirds and some R38s. I guess they either just got delivered or they are there for fixing the brake problems on those trains. I viewed them from the University Heights Bridge, south side walkway.
Well, that's about it for now..
CWalNYC
[cars #7836-7837, #9508-9509, and some others, to name a few, windows taken out, doors misplaced.]
Are they already preparing to scrap some of the Redbirds? I didn't think it would start so soon.
Sooner than you think.
Here is a picture of an R12 at the now gone 149th St/3rd. Ave terminal dated May 1, 1973. This R12 is sporting a bizarre paintjob. Any clue as to what it's all about?
Looks like one made into a work motor -- or trash motor -- or maybe revenue collection???
This was taken after regular service ended. The last regularly scheduled train was scheduled to leave at 12:06 AM on 29 April 1973.
I thought that was strange. Didn't someone post here that the city cut all the signal cables as soon as the last fantrip of Low V cars was complete? Or was that after the date in this picture?
I was thinking of revenue collection too, but with the windows sealed up, it must have been hot in those cars. Since it was photographed after the "els" closure, maybe the train was dispatched to collect any remaining items from the token booths.
Bill "Newkirk"
But why paint it for a one time job?
I'm thinking garbage collection. It's designated by the number "e45". Perhaps someone can explain what this designation means.
Work motor / rider car / signal dolly /non revenue
Virginia Division BMT
E44 and E45 were revenue collectors, although there two other R12s on the miscellaneous roster that I can recall. There was also W303 and W304, which was used for wreck and derailments. They were equipped with oxygen and cutting tools, truck and shoe beam ratchets and heavy duty tools. This picture could be either, as both the revenue collectors and the derailment trains were retired with H2C couplers. The wreck cars were not equipped with McB. It is possible the revenue cars could have been used after the closing of the line to remove articles from the booths before demolition.
It definately looks like some sort of work train.
E_DOG
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"For those of us with Mirc"...
Why don't you post the irc server, port number, and room name? True you don't get your banner ad hits that way but if you're going to say that it's possible to use Mirc, why not post how?
Something happened to my connection and I was bumped off and I get get back on again
This problem has been solved.
PLEASE COME BACK, the chat works now!
Something happened to my connection and I was bumped off and I can't get back on again
That's all there is to say.
Much as I would like to, I can't.
the bottom scroll bar tells be the applet "chat" can't load. "Something" missing, where "Something" is the name of a file I can't read fast enough before it disappears.
I saw a R-142 on the 6 line today. I thought they only had the R-142As on there. I could tell be the motor.
It may have been that mixed set that was on the 2, 7211-7215 was paired with some R-142 set. You didn't catch car #s, did you?
DARN! I was going to write them down. Sorry, I forgot. R-142s and 142As can run together? I didn't know that.
By the way, which numbers are the 142s and which are the 142As? I usually tell them apart by the sound of the motors. I have a blind friend who can tell you almost all the models of trains just by the sounds of their motors! This guy is a HARD CORE train buff. I mean, bigger than anyone I've ever met.
The traction motors definetely sound different from r142-r142a saw 7215-7211 with some Bombardier on the 6 today at Pelham.
That was a smart thing the TA did and to get these R142 and R142A to get along. Can R62 mate with 62A, R68 with R68A?
Also it appears the front window that looks through the cab is bigger on the Bombardier units.
R68 and R68A can run in one set. Which cab window are you talking about? If anything, the Kawasaki ones are bigger.
When I got on an R142A the window was an even square, like on the R46. But on the R142 that I rode Friday the window seemed longer.
Whatever the case I'm just glad the T/O's aren't covering them up, yet. So if R68 and R68A can run in one set, are there any "mixed" trains running today? I guess if R142 and R142A's do mix then there must not be much if any difference in motor performance, only sound.
The Bombardier R142 is the first subway train I ever rode on without any motor noise whatsoever, which is kinda cool.
The cab window? I thought you were talking about the windshield. Well, that window can be replaced with anything. There are many varieties of them out there. Ride around. There is the net type with no distortion straight ahead but doesn't allow you to see the console nor controls. Then there's the multi-layered plastic filmy stuff. I've seen that on the R142As. The view is distored ocmpletely. Kinda blurred. You can see things like signal plate numbers outdoors but inside, you don't see anything.
This has been discussed before. All A division stuff can play together, with the exception of the R-142/A with other classes. (I don't know the story about the 110A). I have seen a redbird/R-62 mix at Concourse (Jerome?) yard, moving under its own power. No one usually sees R-62s and 62as together because there is no place where the two classes share a yard.
The R32-42 can all mix. The 68/68a often mix, these sets are most often found on the N but sometimes the B.
It's the same mixed (cars 6336-6340 and 7211-7215) train that ran on the 2. I caught it on the 6 yesterday. I guess they decided to move it to the 6. I rode in one of the Bombardier cars. It had its 2 line maps replaced with 6 line maps.
I believe it was the #6336-6337-6338-6339-6340 bunch; saw that mixed bunch southbound at Whitlock on Saturday.
wayne
I'd like to know more about this company and what they made.
I'd like to know more about this company and what they made.
Assuming you're referring to Western Railroad Supply, here's their website.
That is a link to a locomotive rebuilder. he may be really looking for the Western Railroad Supply Co. which made signalling equipment.
Go to www.wch.com/aboutwch.htm to learn about the history of WRRS's successor company, Western Cullen Hayes.
Thanks I always wanted to know more about Western-Cullen-Hayes. In fact My town has grade crossings with WC-Hayes Equipment.
Kudos to Bernard Greenberg for his recent addition (as of June 12) to the explanation of subway signalling. An excellent document and good diagrams. I enjoyed reading it, and understand a lot more because of it.
I probably just missed it, but is there a section in there which explains the sequence of events which comprise the "punch in for a line-up?"
You mean there's more to it than 1) stop train, 2) press button, 3) wait for signal to clear, and 4) proceed?
Well, I was thinking perhaps an explanation of "line-up," an illustration of what the tower controller sees when the T/O punches in, and what the resulting line-up looks like (I assume that means the sequence of switch settings in front of the train) might be fun and interesting.
Most interlockings are completely automatic. When the T/O punches the button it fires off a series of relays. If the route of not set the T/O will either hear another series of penumatic pops and whooshes and/or electric grinding noises and the switch points will align for him. After the points align the signal will clear. If the interlocking is not automatic a towerman will get an indication in his tower and will manipulate the interlocking machine to give the correct switch linup and clear the signal.
"Most interlockings are completely automatic."
Hmmmmmmm - can you tell me which major interlocking towers work like this?
I quote the sign at 50th St (6Ave line)
Big yellow letters:
THINK!!!!
This tower is fully automatic.
What you punch is what you get.
KNOW YOUR LINEUP!!!!
Thanks, I was wondering where that sign was located. Now I can go photograph it.
I did say major tower exactly because I had 50th Street in mind (which is clearly not a major tower). When an F train punches at 14 st, a bell rings in the tower at W-4th St. Ditto Columbus Circle. I'm not sure about the QBP master tower because it was just coming on line when I visited it.....
Once I started looking closely, I was pleased and surprised at the number of manned towers still in the system.
I guess Met and Chambers would qualify as automatic plants. But they aren't junctions, only terminals.
I can think of only two automatic towers, 50st and City Hall, I think all the others are manual.
As a sidenote: When Queensboro Plaza Master tower goes into full service, will it be at least partially automatic? The F and E, V G and R, N and W, and 7 and 7 will all have conflicting line-ups, a bit much for one tower operator.
And, what tower controls the diverge between the E and F at Van Wyck Blvd? Kew Gardens?
From the looks of things at that location, Continental Ave-Forest Hills might have that one, because the Kew Gardens operator looks like he or she is busy with yard movement into and out of the yard nearby. If anyone out there has the real scoop on this, let us know.
I don't think that Parsons Blvd runs the interlocking at Van Wyck Blvd, but you never know. The addition for the tower at Continental looks like an airport control tower setup. Now it will be difficult to look at the board an find out if a train is approaching. Ah, progress.
City Hall tower is automatic only in the Broad Street area on the J/M. Otherwise there is two tower operators on duty 24 hours a day to watch the Broadway Line. The board shows from the 60 Street Tube to Lawrence Street. Also the J line between Sutphin Blvd and Parsons/Archer is automatically controlled.
In Queens, these towers control the following areas:
Continental: CTL lower level as far as Union Tpke and 75th Avenue
Kew Gardens: Jamaica Yard lead D9/D10 tracks
Parsons/Archer: Van Wyck Blvd on E/F, upper level on the E from Van Wyck Blvd to Jam Ctr, lower level on the J at Sutphin and Jam Ctr (on automatic except when a move is made to one of the storage tracks in the back)
Parsons/Hillside: switches in this immediate area only.
179 Street: Controls 169 and 179 Streets.
And these punch boxes are at the ends of station platforms, right (eg while passengers are leaving or boarding, the TO is punching in his/her line-up)?
You can find them just about everywhere there’s a route decision to be made.
Depending on the station, there may be multiple punch boxes (10-car, 8-car, etc). Just look for them! They are usually either on the wall opposite where the TO should stop, or suspended from the ceiling on the platform side.
Look for a rectangular box about 10"*6" (how big depends on how many choices–DeKalb is huge (but with a lot of the choices blanked out!)) with a bunch of labelled buttons on the side.
John
The ones I like have one single button, and instructions on how many rings to give the tower operator for a given lineup.
Thanks, guys. That was great.
Two questions concerning interlockings and master towers. First when you say that a T/O punches in his route lineup and it is totally automatic this means that a tower operater has nothing to do it is all done by itself? And second when the new train control center goes on line will there still be Master Towers?
So I actually sat down in and rode a new R143 today. The 6 from 96th to GCT.
Kind of cramped, but that's the IRT. Looks like my dentist's office, with the light blue paint job and all that chrome. Smells like my dentist's office too. That new plastic smell.
They made a mistake getting rid of the color coding and roll signs.
Is the 6 the only line to use three types of rolling stock, from 3 different decades, the 60s, 80s and 00s?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think you mean the R-142 instead. The R-143 wouldn't be able to run on the IRT since it is for the "B" division.
BMTJeff
That was not an R143. It was an R142A unless you got the mixed set, which I heard was running on the 6 recently.
Here's a link to the trip to phily today.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=33318
Does anyone on the board know about a derailment on the Bay Ridge Branch about a week and a half ago? There was no news story about it in the media. I found out about it through the New York Railfan Forum. It was by Fresh Pond Rd & Metropolitan in Glendale. It involved a LIRR train, NOT a NY & Atlantic train. An interesting thing is that since North of the derailment was blocked they could only send Locomotives from south of it. And since the only locomotives south of it at the time were New York City Transit locomotives at the Linden Yards they actually sent 2 yellow NYC Transit diesels to assist in the cleanup. Probably the only time NYC Transit locomotives ever pulled a LIRR train. (albeit a ballast train)
Here is the thread with the story: http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg0612491713989.html?25
Hey, Sarge! Welcome back. I heard all the details and it sounded like a REAL MESS over there.
I think the LIRR Police roped off one of the overpasses (Cresent St.?) since they thought the weight of the full ballast cars might cause a collapse.
And of course there is the "little detail" of the NYCT diesels coming to the rescue of LIRR from Linden Yards. THAT would have been a railfan's dream photo-op (That might have been the first time transit locos ever went that far east on the Bay Ridge branch).
BMTman
Actually, the NYCTA diesels travelled up that way when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed,doing car transfers from CI to the Eastern Division, didn't they?
There's a photo of one on the LIRR in one of Bill Newkirk's calendars.
I'm not really sure but I think those transports between the Eastern Division and Coney Island was in the other direction, from Linden Yards east. This derailment was north, in Queens.
By the way BMT Man, thanks for the welcome back. I never really left though, I just don't post as much.
In the midst if my travels on the N Line from Stillwell Av today, I observed some activity at Coney Island Yard. An R-26/28/29 pair was at the bumping block on one of the storage tracks in the Yard. The car had green stickers under the plate, and was signed for the 5, so this is a dead give away that it's a 26/28/29. Not sure of the number though.
I find it unusual because I can't recall when was the last time an R-26/28/29 as a Redbird went down there.
I'm no expert at this, but I wonder what the deal is with those cars in the midst of car retirements? These arrived during the course of the week as I had not seen them the previous weekend. Are they: (1)going to scrap, heading to the SBK Yard, (2) designated Museum Pieces, (3) being converted to work equipment?
Anyone who knows, I'd like to hear about it.
-Stef
I was visiting the #5 line on Thursday for inspection. A co-worker told me that some R-28's had been sent to CIY for scrapping. I can't verify it, but that's what he said.
Sounds like they're heading to the piers of Brooklyn. But it just occurred to me that they could also set up new school cars.... Just a thought.
-Stef
A G.O. will be in effect this week at the Transit Museum. The NYPD are going to practice emergency evacuation drills, and they will be using 8 R-29 (or similar) cars as stated in the G.O.
Just wondering what time di you leave Stillwell today. I was in the N, I had a set of R32's on both of my trips out of Stillwell. I left at 10:28 & 2:12. Let me know if you might have been on one of these.
Robert
Sorry Rob, I wasn't on those trains. I started out of Stillwell at 5:30 to head towards 20 Ave to do a lunch job. My day formally ended at 1AM where I got the next available Nancy going to Pacific St.
-Stef
Now there are redbirds on track A1 (track from museum) at Hoyt Schermerhorn. Saw it Mon.
Perhaps these are on the decommissioned (retired) list, or will be after this.
-Stef
I wonder if there are any plans for coverting surviving Redbirds to Work Service, and when this would happen.
Just Monday, there was a hodge podge of work equipment at 2nd Avenue on the F, including the Continuous Welded Rail Train.
The CWR which consists of former R-17,21,22s, looks pretty warn out. Doesn't anybody believe in giving it a paint job? Perhaps it's time to replace the older work pieces....
-Stef
Following cars are "in storage":
7756/57
7918/19
8776/77
7840/41
7854/55
7802/03
7760/61
7764/65
7760/61
7784/85
7874/75
7828/29
7952/53
7894/95
I would love to get my hands on some old subway paraphanalia like the signs that say Fort Hamilton Pkwy. or 9th AVE basically anything off the B, N, or R trains. Is there somewhere to get old stuff like that? I just bought a home and would love to decorate with stuff like that. Any help would be appreciated.
thanks
A few items are available at the Transit Museum stores in Brooklyn and Grand Central.
Have you discussed your home decorating ideas with Mrs. Boombotz? Mrs. traindude was not thrilled when I began making the stairway leadig to my basement look like the entrance to a subway station complete with a custom made subway station entrance sign.
Actually she didn't bitch too much until I installed the turnstile and wouldn't give her a metrocard pass. (kidding)
Mine drew the line when I suggested re-decorating my home office to replicate a BMT Standard - including Zolatone (speckled green) paint.
She tolerates the roll signs though - as long as they stay in that room!
including Zolatone (speckled green) paint.
Oh, nooooooooo. Not that stuff.
In fairness, I guess it was more cheerful than the Olive Drab interior paint of many Standards before the GOH, but it was still unnatural somehow.
I remember seeing both olive drab and speckled green paint on BMT standard interiors. Neither bothered me as much as the lack of bulkhead signs.
Try Ebay.
The Transit Museum is a good tip. Also try other local trolley museums, e.g. Branford has some car number boards, roll signs, etc. I believe Kingston & Kennebunkport will sell & mail you stuff, i.e. you don't have to go there. One of our members takes some of the stuff to shows & sells via Ebay.
On Ebay make sure you see a photo of it (to check the condition) or know who you're buying it from if you're spending more then a few bucks.
Mr t__:^)
You could acquire a motorman's cab from a soon-to-be-retired Redbird.
Or does Heypaul have exclusive rights to having a motorman's cab?
"Or does Heypaul have exclusive rights to having a motorman's cab?"
Say.... *where* is Heypaul.... I haven't seen his posts in a while.
Elias
heypaul still posts here from time to time. He's hanging out on a couple other message boards where people don't yell at each other all the time.
I miss his rapid scrolling text.:-)
There is a store on the corner of Houston and Bowery in Manhattan. They have large and small station signs.
With the preperations for Coney Island Overhaul getting ready, how will the new station look? What will be different? New Tower? New Station Platforms? A bus terminals directly below the termianal? Brand new total conrete platforms. A new terminal that would draw people.
I wish there were drawings of how the terminal would look after the overhaul. They would make it look like a total gem. To think it will have Wheelchair access to all parts of the terminal instead of the B. I wonder if this move was mad to accompany a new line or new services for the futrure?
I poked around The JoeKorner one day and found this.
>>>Artist's rendering of the new Stillwell Ave Terminal. Construction to begin in 2001. This is from the TA employee magazine, At Your Service.<<<
Here's the link.
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/stillwell.gif
Wow! that looks real nice! A defintly a gem of the system. This will be excellent for the city. Great Move by the MTA!
So I take it that the unique BMT Logos will be gone?
Nope they are getting a polish and I will be back in the structure when everything is all set and done.
I went down to the SBK scrap yard today. There was a bunch of MOW rollingstock there including one of SBK's deisels N2. Check out the pictures at my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
when you get there, look under the "latest updates" section on the right and click on the appropriate links.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I like your website it is very good ! however, my Q&A is where is the photos of what is being prepaired for what scrapping
operation ( S ) etc... on you very fine and excellent website if I might ask please ? ( thank you ) ...
Salaam- All of the pictures are under the "Scrap Yards/ SBK" choice on the left of the screen with all of the other buttons. Those are the pictures of actually revenue service cars being scrapped. The work cars are under the "Rollingstock" button on the left and then "work cars".
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Thank you !! & also i would like to donate some subway pics for your excellent site @!!
I was looking at a map before the new Jubilee line extension, and the line ended at Charing Cross. Now, the line completely misses that station. Is that line segment to Charing Cross abandoned? If so, can you still see the old tunnel where the new tunnel begins?
Rob, I can confirm (based on the London Underground web site) that the station is no longer in use since the extension was opened. I don't have any further information, never having been there myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rob, the line from Green Park to Charing Cross is available for use to trains not in public service,for example a southbound train will detrain at Green Park then run empty to Charing Cross to reverse.
No passenger access is available at Charing Cross as the areas have been boarded up although emergency acCess/exit is available.
The southbound Jubilee line towards Westminster,the Charing Cross tunnel can still be seen on the right hand side in direction of travel
and you will hear the wheelsets pass over the pointwork.
It is not uncommon for stations North of Green Park to still show Charing Cross on the platform indicators for a train terminating at Green Park! this is being changed!
Regards
Rob:^)
London UK
Which is a pity, since I always fancied the idea of the “Fleet Line” as it was called. The Strand and Fleet Street get short shrift, with the Aldwych shuttle now closed.
(I used to take the shuttle to King’s College so I know!)
Perhaps some day, we’ll get the Fleet Line back!
John
Just to add, trains only go out of service at Green Park when there are 'operational difficulties'.
I remember the transfer between the Bakerloo (former Trafalgar Sq.)
and the Northern (former Strand) was through the connection above the
Jubilee line platform. Does the transfer still exist, now that the
Jubilee doesn't run there anymore? Strand was closed for a pretty
long time in the late seventies when they were building the Jubilee.
That was also when they renamed the old Charing Cross station to
Embankment.
Interchange between Bakerloo and Northern Line still exists, but not sure for how much longer. I have seen car line diagrams only show an interchange at Embankment, so the Charing Cross interchange is not recommended.
Then, are they going to rename them back to the old names?
I have heard rumours about renaming the Bakerloo Line back to Trafalgar Square, but absolutely nothing more than this. I have not heard anything about changing Charing Cross (Northern) back to Strand and Embankment back to Charing Cross. Expect no firm decisions about anything related to London Transport until Tony Blair and Ken Livingstone have finished their battle.
Thanks. It seems adequate to keep the old Strand as Charing X.
Anyways not to mention the REDBIRDS once looked glamorous. Besides New Yorkers don't give a Damn about how good the subway cars look. Lets be real. If a Work Car came in to 42nd times square and opened the Doors how many New Yorkers would hop on! After all these New Yorkers are the same ones who lean over the platform edge and wonder why people get killed by incoming Trains! Also They are the same ones who ask is this an E or an F when the Sign clearly says in big letters E JAMAICA CENTER! not to mention it repeats itself! Also they don't care what kind of car it is. As long as it is going uptown and the bronx or downtown and brooklyn. Hopefully not making all stops
If you dont mind me answering, yeah you are right we would get into any car if it opened their doors in a station. If people rode on graffiti covered cars for 10 years then any type of train would suit us. Not all of us are perfect, and normally the ones who ask if that is an E or an F train are people who just moved to NYC or people who are on vacation, or it's their first time on the subway. People who have lived in the city for along time or all of their lives know what trains to take. Or they at least look at a map. If its going where we're going we dont care if it's local, or express, or skip stop as long as it stops where we need to stops.
Thats New Yorkers
If a Work Car came in to 42nd times square and opened the Doors how many New Yorkers would hop on!
I'm sure everybody here would follow them!
@ this is not unique to just New York city!
This also is true in many other cities & towns elsewhere!....& not just in the USA...!!
. If a Work Car came in to 42nd times square and opened the Doors how many New Yorkers would hop on!
The answer: Everyone waiting at the platform save the first ten entering each door--everyone but the tourists are so caught up in their own business that they'd never notice the platform gap and fall right through until the pile of bodies became tall enough to permit people to walk across.
I wonder if this could actually happen. Only one way to find out.
Dan
@ this is not unique to just New York city!
This also is true in many other cities & towns elsewhere!....& not just in the USA...!!
Okay. Get this straight for me. Who makes the R142s and who makes the As. Also, did the companies make the regulars and A's on the 62s and 68s? In other words, IF Bombardiar made the R-142A's, does that mean A's are always Bombardiar or did it change from contract to contract?
IIRC:
R62-Kawasaki
R62A-Bombardier
R142-Bombardier
R142A-Kawasaki
And:
R-68: Amrail
R-68A: Kawasaki
David
R68 not by amrail. By Westinghouse-Amrail then split with 2 subcontractors, Jeumont&Schnieder and Alstom. Not sure about spelling.
Jeez...semantics again!
Amrail (or Westinghouse Amrail, as it says on the builder's plates) was a consortium consisting principally of Westinghouse of the U.S. and Francorail of France. Jeumont-Schneider made the undercarriages on the first 225 cars, if memory serves, and Alsthom (now known as Alstom -- without the "h") made them on the last 200 cars.
David
Learn something new everyday.
Is this the company from which Adtranz evolved?
No, that's Asea->ABB->Adtranz->Daimler Chrysler Rail Systems->BOMBardier
Pullman and Budds designs also got Bombed too I think...
No, that's Asea->ABB->Adtranz->Daimler Chrysler Rail Systems->BOMBardier
Not quite. ABB was actually ABB Traction (check the builder's plates on the first 35 Baltimore LRV's) ABB came from ASEA/Brown-Boveri. ABB Traction "merged" with a component of Daimler-Benz to form Adtranz.
With the Daimler-Benz combine with Chrysler Corp. to form Daimler-Chrysler the Elmira/Pittsburgh operation was dually refered to as either Adtranz or Chrysler Rail Systems.
Bombardier bought Adtranz/CRS. We used to refer to Adtranz as the No Quality Shops after the constant problems/late deliveries to Baltimore (18 LRV's that, strangely, carry ABB Traction builder's plates) and Philadelphia (the Market-Frankford M4's).
The -A is the difference between the manufacturers. I guess the first company gets CAR and the second gets CARA. They don't continue through contracts. It's a per contract situation.
How delightfully confusing.
The motorman had the door open. Good good for him!
What the hell is that in response to? Want to direct something toward someone? E-mail them privately.
Bad Bad for Him (if he's caught).
-Tood
uh, Todd.
Since the door opens outward on the R-142s, this would not likely happen. However, this contradicts subsequent post where you say you observed the operation through the little window. Even as such, with the train operator sitting in his chair, you would not have an unobstructed view of the TOD or the master controller handle. Perhaps you should re-think the facts as you remember them, put them into one clear version and re-post.
Does anyone have an idea why the Interborough Subway and the Manhattan Elevated lines used different types of third rails? I
had never thought of this until a friend of mine pointed this out.
The IRT used subway type third rail, while the Manhattan Els chose
the old higher el type rail. Since the Els were electrified between
1900 and 1903, and the IRT opened in 1904, why not use one standard
subway type rail for everything. It seems stupid to have two types of third rail and dual third rail for joint IRT/Manhattan services like
Jerome Ave. and White Plains Road. You would think that the IRT, which leased the El lines, would have thought of this.
mikeyol@aol.com
Mostly for safety. Stumbling around in a dark subway tunnel,
an exposed third rail is a danger.
It's funny, many of the original IRT stations had light fixtures slung underneath the platform edges, above the third rail. There's a pic in Joe Cunningham's IRT Fleet book of the Bowling Green station in 1909 which clearly shows this.
TO GIVE A FACTUAL POSTING ON 3RD RAILS EL vs: SUBWAY
The Manhattan Railway Company- the Owner/Operator of the Manhattan Els, did experimentations based upon a relatively new technology at the time - in the late
1890's. Frank Sprague - the acknowledged Father of of Multiple Unit Train control - was part of the development of the "sled" spring-gravity drop shoe for the initial and total electrification of all
Manhattan Railway motor car units in the fleet.
That fleet comprised former steam trailers built between 1878 and 1890 of the 6-4-6 window design.
With an EL flatcar and track in an alleyway - he developed not only the control system for MU but also the power pickup source. The cheapskates running the Manhattan System dragged their feet, but CHICAGO offered him a chance to test his engineering on one of their els, and Frank went up there and sucessfully demonstrated a specially outfitted train with his Motor and control system--and his placement of the 3rd rail high and close to the running rails to be located under the position of the 3rd rail sled-shoe which was mounted to the truck sideframe by the traditional wooden (Oak) insulating beam.
As the shoe "dropped" down onto the 3rd rail and had a pressure applied by twin "sprung" hanger arms on each side of the shoe - there was no place for (or even thought of) a cover for the rails. They didnt even have a backboard protector for the outside face of the rail facing the catwalk area. The whole
electrification experiment was a success and the Chicago Transit gave Frank and his company and affiliates the contract to electrfy the whole system
of Chicago elevated lines around 1899. It was AFTER the Chicago success that Manhattan Railway Company Cheapskates decided to give Frank Sprague the 2nd
Chance to electrify the Manhattan els - and he used the tried and true MU system of control he developed, having select steam trail cars overhauled with MM cabs, controls, new power trucks and underbody related electrical hardware (Resistors, compressors, control-group boxes, fuses, etc, etc., and the exposed 3rd rails that were located relevant to where the tried & true sled shoes lined up from their truck mounted beams. The Manhattan company improved the safety factor by placing a backboard
on the outside face (facing the adjacent catwalk next to the 3rd rail) made also of wood...so trackwalkers would not brush up against the side of the rail nor would any storage items during track
repairs (spare ties, parts boxes with spikes, etc.)
have contact with sides of 3rd rails when stored on the catwalkways during those track repairs.
THE BRT Company also used the Sprague system and contact shoe design and electrical-propulsion systems of the Sprague technology about the same time - but for some reason, left their 3rd rails TOTALLY exposed on both sides as well as the rail top for the sleds - no expense for backboards for them - the safety responsibility was put on the
track crews obviously !!
WHEN THE INTERBOROUGH SUBWAY was being designed, you will remember that they built a fleet of wooden
composite car bodies as no carbuilder was doing mass produced steel bodies then (and unchartered technology in 1900-01). Safety issues re; dark tunnels and exposed 3rd rail also became an issue for technological improvement. The Pennsy built a pre-GIBBS all steel car for the IRT as a demo under the design of their Chief Engineer, Mr. Gibbs, who was also involved with designing a steel car for the
LIRR and its 3rd rail electrification. The pilot car was too heavy and became a pay and work car for the IRT - but the GIBBS IRT car was designed as an improvement over the pilot very shortly, and the LIRR ordered a fleet IDENTICAL to the IRT Gibbs units - 51 feet x 8'9" wide and no center doors.
LIRR cars had pilots on the trucks, end step wells and the BOX Headlight on the roof clerestory
centerline like later longer, wider MP 54 cars were to receive when built in 1912-15. The IRT and LIRR
Gibbs cars could even train electrically together...and LIRR planned joint IRT-LIRR service
eventually like the LIRR had with the BRT els in steam days. It was the LIRR and IRT who with Sprague and other engineers,developed the "safety" covered third rails back then as we know them today.
Also, a new IRT & LIRR type of the paddle shoe design - had to be lower and longer-out from the truck sideframe so it could slide on top of the rail, and under the cover above the rail - and the cover for the rail had to be low enough as not to obstruct the truck and mainly car body and equipment overhang on sharp curves and switch tracks.
The NYCRR later utilized a newer style underrunning 3rd rail design - with paddle shoes almost
similar to the IRT-LIRR design - and that system is
used among others, on the Philadelphia Market-Frankford El. Broad Street Phily subway uses comventional IRT-LIRR 3rd rail design & cover as does Staten Island RT. The Manhattan Els kept their older style (as did Brookyn BRT) for their EL lines because it worked well and the cost to retrofit cars and track with the newer system was cost intensive and redundant. On joint IRT El (subway extension)
lines with joint wood el car and subway car operation - both types of 3rd rails were used on each track - subway rail on one side - elevated on other - with special ramps on the el rail to guide the lower subway-type shoes up to the higher el rail on that side of the track. The subway cars also had a design for 3rd rail
paddle shoes much different than these days - they had a cast piece on the shoe closer to the mounting hardware that allowed the middle of the shoe to slide flat on the el third rail even though the shoe was at a slight angle to the side of the higher el 3rd rail - as well as the cast piece on the end of the same shoe that rode flat on the lower subway third rail. The shoe mounting design and shape & angle of the shoe outboard from the sprung hinge pin was slightly different than the present shoe used now. Additionally, the newer subway type 3rd rail and its cover board had to be further from the running rails so that it would clear the earlier
elevated style drop shoes when in 'no 3rd rail'
"dropped" position while running (hanging) just
a few inches clear of the subway 3rd rail and its
coverboard. This due to the ongoing negotiations for the IRT to lease the Manhattan Railways Co. for "999 years" (YES, that is the time, not a mistake!)
in anticipation of a unified system (the Manhattan EL's being the "Manhattan" Division of the IRT Co.)
and capability of operating "EL" & subway equipment where applicale and needed, on the same elevated trackage for revenue and non revenue moves.
On switch tracks were the usual skirts for guiding
3rd rail shoes up to the top of the 3rd rail while coming off the curved part of the switch to the straight - but they were designed to guide both sled and paddle shoes up to rail top - and were engineered somewhat differently than the paddle-only skirts used at those applications today.
By the way, steel IRT cars using the Polo Grounds Shuttle, which retained EL TYPE 3rd rail to the end (due to tunnel clearances not allowing room for retro-fitting with further-outboard subway 3rd rail) had their paddle shoes (the old double-contact shoes) cut back (ends torched off) as they were
steel subway HI-V and Low-V cars with paddles for subway mainline use. The cutting off of the subway
rail contact pads at end of shoes allowed the shoes to clear the tight tunnels between Sedwick and Anderson Avenues-- built tight for el car (and their
sled-drop shoe 3rd rail) clearances!!
The EL Car shuttles previous to steel cars on that line (from 1940 to 1950 appx.) which were
mainly EL MUDC and Composite cars - had their usual
elevated type drop sled shoes as used in normal
Manhattan Div (of the IRT) elevated operation and
used the shuttle 3rd rail as the shoes were designed to do. That is why the Jerome IRT line above 161st
Street had elevated type 3rd rail up to the IRT carbarns at Woodlawn (along with subway 3rd rail on opposite side of each track) so the Shuttle steel cars (and previous 9th Ave EL and later shuttle el cars) could get up to the shops for inspection and repairs. El-type 3rd rail did extend to just beyond
the south end of the 161st Street station (probably ending a 6 car train length from the Jerome 3-track tunnel portals) until just after 1940 closure of the 9th Ave. el because wood el cars were stored on the center express track mid-days - from just below the station, thru the station, and just below the junction switches connecting the lower 9th Ave. el ramp up to the Jerome Line !! I have photos of IRT EL GATE cars sitting on the center track of the Jerome Line 161st Station pre l940 !! (I DIDNT
take the photos - I'm NOT that ANCIENT yet!!
BMT steel subway cars also had dual-contact-plate
type 3rd rail paddle shoes for use (ie: Jamaica El,
Myrtle Ave El, etc.) on lines where wood BMT EL
cars with their totally exposed 3rd rail ran with steel subway cars on joint-service Brooklyn els and did not use dual (both side of each track) mode 3rd rails like the IRT, but did use a "fatter' wider top 3rd rail section unlike the light profile 3rd rail on Manhattan Els -and likewise on those joint service sections - did NOT have 3rd rail top covers due to the El Car sled drop shoes. We guys from the 50's remember all those variations I've detailed
above - those were the days of VARIETY, interesting
sounds and tracion motor smells, and GOOD HEAT in winter and civilized riding public. Hope this answers all your questions on 3rd rails - History Class is over - I'm outta here - thanks guys for your patience and time in reading all this (Sorry!)
Regards to all - Joe Frank at NYC Model Transit EL
PS: I know Selkirk (Honarks Pigway!) - KARL (ex New
Yorker) and my old friend from the 60's,Paul Matus
will enjoy the above invariably -we were there !!
(Transit Vampires from long ago)
You're right, Joe. I really did enjoy it.
Of all the transit arcana, I've never seen a list of when the surviving BMT Lines switched to subway-style third rail. The Brighton Line had elevated third rail well into the '50s. I remember the change-over. The Sea Beach had subway third rail from the start of subway service.
The change-over did not start until all the gate cars were removed from service. The lower Myrtle kept uncovered 3rd rail until the end even though the Q cars did not need them.
The Culver Shuttle also never recieved the protective boards that every other elevated subway line got.
Looking at pics of exposed 3rd rails, i'd be one petrified track worker. One false move and I'm toast.
In my Silver Leaf days, I did a lot of track walking (with permission) that involved crossing third rail. I had to learn how to cross third rail safely and never had any problem, save once, and in that incident looking before I lept saved my hash.
Anyway, I prefered crossing exposed third rail, because you simply had to clear the rail with your feet. With covered third rail, you had to clear the rail and the board. Not only did this require a bigger step, but there was always the possibility of catching your foot under the board.
I suppose someone will say "but you can step on the board." I was told never to step on the board, and I never did.
Never never step on the board is what we got told also. They can break and drop you. VERY good advice there ...
I seem to recall from the early 1960s that the Q cars had "drop" shoes for the third rail (and no sealed-beam headlamps), but pictures taken in the late 1960s show "paddle" shoes (and sealed-beam headlamps).
So, I think that, at least the Myrtle Ave. line (and other tracks used by the Q-types for shop moves) needed uncovered third rail into the mid 1960s.
Can anyone confirm this?
-- Ed Sachs
I took the Eastern Division fairly often during the summer of 1958. They were in the process of converting the third rail on the Jamaica Ave portion at that time. Take a closer look at your Q-car pictures. Did they have extended sills on the doors or the lowered roof? If not, then chances are that these pictures were taken before the Q-cars replaced the gate cars on the Myrtle.
TO: Steve Bauman - FROM: Joseph Frank
Steve - The advantage of my having taken photos heavily (and color slides) from the mid 50's onward - about over 200000 B&W & 8000 slides - and the photos are in books on lines covered - in station order - All with dates and locale and scene specifics and particulars - that sometimes I can go back in time and actually plot things simple as 3rd rail changes...to wit:
(a) Loads of Q types on Myrtle up to early 1964 dates WITH DROP EL TYPE shoes - but ALL with low roofs which were lowered gradually (a set at a time for 30 sets of 3 cars each) between 1960 appx and 1962)
(b) Photo dated 4-61 - inbound B'way local track at
BROADWAY LINE EL (under the above Myrtle EL line station) at Bway-Myrtle station - BMT MULTI in
station enroute to Manhattan WITH EXPOSED 3rd rail
(c) Photo dated 7-62 - E NY Yards with a Q work train w/flats and ALL 3rd Rail EXPOSED in yard
(d) Photo dated 10-1-61 - Broadway Line at Myrtle - center track - with steeple cab loco and work train on EXPOSED 3rd rail
(e) Photo 6-62 looking down from Myrtle El- down along Bway Jamaica El Line showing ALL EXPOSED 3rd rail on all 3 tracks going towards E NY direction
(f) Photo dated 2-1963 - Another work train on Broadway line with steeplecab loco at Bway Myrtle
station with EXPOSED 3rd rail on its track (local) and center track next to it
(g) photo 8-1960- Multi Unit on Boadway line a few blocks Manhattan bound from Bway-Myrtle station on local inbound track with EXPOSED 3rd rail
All these photos LONG after 1958. I rode Q tyes on Manhattan 3rd Ave el as well as Bronx - and more-so on Myrtle Avenue right to last day in Oct. 1969.
I have written for Electric Lines, Headlights ERA,
for quite a number of traction magazines on NY els and subways - both prototype and model topics -
assisted and contributed to books on NY el lines - just check out the O-scale models of my NYCMTS
model EL system website
AT: http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/
NYCModelTransitEL I know the difference between Myrtle Qs and 3rd Ave El and Queens 1939 WF Q's (I have a 3 car set done in Myrtle El 1958 colors - a 6 car set as 3rd Ave.EL
express consist - and a 3-car set in the Blue w/orange letterboard as run on Flushing and
Astoria Lines 1939 thru 1949 (see my model website for pics of MY Q models and their details!) and QX 2 car units. Really do appreciate your 1958 dated imput BUT I GOT YA! When photo albums (many books on one line each) are done in station order from one end to the other (& not in time chronologic order - my scenes are placed strictly by location order with dates and captions for all of them ) --it is easy to spot changes effected over time spans between one seen say in 1956, and one in 1959-60 at or near the exact same location - if those changes in fact exist
visibly--ie my photos listed above. They might have been REPLACING worn third rail in 1958 when you saw it - but no covers. I have a pictute of a 1200 series BMT el gate car in a work train at Marcy Ave. taken in 1960 with EXPOSED 3rd rail - the car HAD DROP shoes too...and that is as close as an el car can get to the WMsburg Bridge and Manhattan tunnel across the river...just found that picture in front of my Jamaica El Line book # 1.
I think its safe to say that the Qs had to have their roofs lowered lst to free them from E NY shops
(to CI Yards) for repairs via the Bridge and Mannhattan & Bklyn subway tunnels. Later the TA
desired to get the shoes on all Q's changed to
(a) cover up the last exposed 3rd rail on mainline
subway & el route trackage and ( b ) get the Qs to CI Yard with paddle shoes as well as to operate ANYWHERE on the system (ie: fantrips or service moves) - and the whole scenario was effected between late 1963 and early 1965 - 13 or 14 months. Finally -remember that the Qs WITH low roofs BUT drop EL type shoes could STILL get to CI yards thru subway tunnel and El routes WITH subway type covered 3rd rails - their drop shoes would run way clear by 4 inches appx of fouling the subway 3rd rails - BUT would HAVE TO BE compromise-coupler TOWED to CI Yard
as they COULD NOT as yet collect power with their EL shoes from subway 3rd rails up to that point before they were given the subway type shoe fitting between
late '63-early '65 aproximately. Of course - shop records for the Qs would confirm all date patterns more accurately than I can - but my photos dont lie
regarding those approximate date areas.
Thanks much for your imput here - Sincerely - Joe F
I stated that my recollection was that they were replacing the 3rd rail on the Jamaica Ave portion in 1958. I specifically meant the section between Bway-Junction and 168th St. I don't have a photo archive and must rely on my recollections. Do your photographic archives confirm or rebut this? BTW, I'm talking August 1958.
The door sill extensions for the Q cars were added in 1958. If there is a picture of a Q car without the extension, it was most likely taken before the Q replaced the gate cars on the Myrtle. Do you agree?
I don't know why the Q cars got a crew cut. They operated for 10 years through the tunnels, when they operated on the Flushing and Astoria Lines. It's possible that when they went to the IRT, their height was increased due to changing the trucks. There's a picture on this site that shows the door threshold above the platform during the 3rd Av El days. The pictures for the Flushing/Astoria days are not conclusive regarding door threshold height.
TO: Ed Sachs - Joseph Frank - NYCMTS
RE: Q type 3rd rail shoes
The Q type el cars came from the Bronx 3rd Ave. El in the early part of 1957. IRT EL MUDC cars and
BMT Q cars provided the 149th St - Gun Hill Road
24 Hr. local service on the el from 5-12-55 7PM end of service below 149th St to approx. Dec. 1956 when
the MUDC's were taken off gradually and sent via the
WH PL RD line to E.180 St-switched to the Dyre Ave.
IRT shuttle line (via a one track access connection)
and rolled down the SB (westerly) ex NYW&B SB local track to a point just above the NHRR connection - and via a piece of rail removed from that track on the embankment downgrade, were rolled off track and over the embankment to the flatlands below (ex- Starlite Amusement Park at E 174th St)- and BURNED
on the spot. The Qs were gradually removed and sent
probably via the same NHRR track connection of the Dyre line - towed by NHRR to car floats of the NHRR at Harlem River E.133rd St Yards (and former NYW&B Terminal and its connecting tracks still there which connected also to the then being removed 3rd Ave. El
structures over the yards from its bridge from Manhattan) - were car floated to Brooklyn Waterfront of the SBK - hauled via Macdonald Ave to Coney Island Shops...and given light total overhauls and that purple-maroonish body paint & fresh silver roof
paint. They were then taken via the BMT (route I am not sure) to the Myrtle Line where they ran with the IRT Composite (l950 retro fit to the Qs) trucks and
IRT el 3rd Rail shoes) on exposed 3rd rail until the mid l960's - I believe l966 (but dont QUOTE ME to tightly thereupon) when the TA started replacing the drop with paddle shoes to have the Qs run under their own power to CI Yards for service. Prior to that they were serviced as were the 1300 series BMT BU convertible gate cars they had replaced - at East N Y BMT shops--which I believe stopped doing heavy work about the mid 60's also. CI Yard became the MAIN heavy repair & rebuild facility for the
system. It is at E.NY shops that the roofs were lowered on the Qs in the early 60's (very early - 1960 thru 1962) so they could clear the lower roofs of some of the BMT subway tunnels connecting the Eastern Division with the Coney Island shops.
As the drop-sled 3rd rail shoes on BOTH IRT and BMT el cars would have their pickup sleds fall clear of
subway type 3rd rail and covers inboard by a few inches - they could run on lines with only subway third rail safely but the shoes could not obviously collect power (a) because of the coverboards anyway
(obviously) but (b) mainly their shoes totally passed beside and clear of those power rails. The point is- the Q cars probably were towed by steels or electric locos via Link & Pin to H-TYPE (or work Loco RR Knuckle) COMPROMISE coupler adaptors to CI
Yard. That would be ONLY the Qs that had the LOWER
ROOFS but old drop sled shoes. By the time the subway 3rd rail shoes were fitted to the Qs, 1964 or
1965 - the Q,s -ALL now having their ugly lowered clerestories--could now be run under their on power (excepting those that had dead motors or electrical failures... tow-jobs naturally!) thru the BMT system subway tunnels to CI shops for any-all maintenance or repairs, inspections etc. And YES - the Q ran on Myrtle till the end on totally unprotected (in the
grand public-be-dammed BRT tradition) 3rd rails So, unless Paul Matus can add or correct me (he IS a BMT man) - I guess this subject is covered hopefully
adequately - but any other imput and info is most welcome by me to substantiate or offer corrections to this short history. PS: The only drop type 3rd rail shoes are now in photos and on models (like my
NYCMTS EL CARS) of in out of state trolley museums.
Thanks for the time, guys -regards - Joe F
Joe -
Thanks for confirming my recollections.
-- Ed Sachs
When is this class in the Fall? I'm signing up for it during that semester :)
--Mark
Hey,right on,when i lived along Fresh Pond Rd,the sparks were a flying when the q's hit ice on the uncovered 3 rd rail,a wonderfull sight was the bright sparks falling onto the closed former trolley right of way between the main avenues,i wish i took photos of that, thanks Joe for the look into the past,youre the man......Karl
Living by the Jamaica el, we were really provided the fireworks whenever there was a sleet or snow storm. It was always nice to see the two-car snow trains of gate cars trying to keep the uncovered third rail clear for the Standards.
When I left New York in 1957 I'd swear that the Jamaica Line still had an uncovered third rail, and it was a very thin third rail, about half the width of the rail used in the subway.
Great story ... had heard bits and pieces of it years ago - thanks for pulling it all together!
1. Are the Bombardier R142's running on the 2 now? If so, how many trainsets?
2. Are there a lot of R32's running on the R?
3. I want to check out Atlantic Ave, so are there any GO's on the L line tomorrow which would affect this?
Thanks!
1. Should be at least 9 sets of R-142s on the #2 line on any given day.
2. The R car assignment features a few (four, I think) sets of R-32s, and they seem to show up regularly.
3. Check the MTA website for information about General Orders.
David
I warn you about Atlantic Avenue, it can be...an obstacle at times...:-\
1. Should be at least 9 sets of R-142s on the #2 line on any given day.
How many trainsets are there on the #2 total?
Slightly over 30 trainsets on the #2 in total, if memory serves.
David
Chris:
1.There can be anywhere from 7-10 sets of R142s on the 2.
2. R32s on the R, try the weekend better when they come from the E line.
3. No GO's on the L concerning Atlantic Avenue tomorrow.
If you have a chance stop by on the 1 line. (Hint, Hint)
Well it's the end of an era. The last holdout for EMD F40's has fallen and P40's are replacing the venerable locomotives from their last passenger train assignments. I'm just glad I got all the pics that I did over the past 2 years. It looks like I'll be having pleanty of want for acceleration in my future trips down the NEC.
Whoopie. Amtrak has finally brought "8 and wait" performance to the inland route.
As if it wasn't slow enough?
I'm sure Amtrak will somehow explain how the new, slower locvomotives, are "better", but I for one don't think so.
Anyway, they'll kill the inland run sooner or later (sooner?), so what's the point in complaining anyway?
Maybe if Amtrak would stop shooting themselfs in the foot....
Why keep dreaming though?
"8 and Wait" GREAT LINE! Write it down along with any others you might have.
Route familiarization trains begin Monday at 9:30 am and will continue 24 hours a day until further notice (except the Saturday July 7th where they will be suspended for 12 hours).
Trains will start on 3 track at Pacific Street (B/M/N/R) via the Manhattan Bridge (Bway section) and will end at 49 Street where they will turn back to Brooklyn.
All T/O's:
Check the crew assignment sheets to see if you have been signed up for this mandatory assignment. Don't be AWOL!
All B division T/O's must attend regardless of your picked job.
So non-revenue trains will begin crossing the bridge. Well that'll be interesting, I wonder if there a good chance of seeing any while riding on the north side. That would be a first for me (first time ever seeing trains on the south side tracks).
Take a walk across the newly reopened walkway and you're assured to see them. Of course, I don't know if you would mind the long walk through Chinatown to get to the entrance :•)
What long walk through Chinatown? Unless you have difficulty with your legs, it takes 5 minutes to get from Canal and Lafayette Streets to Canal Street and the Bowery.
The station extends to Collect Street, under which the JMZ run.
8=))
Heck, I think the easternmost stairway is halfway to Orange St...
Heck, I think the easternmost stairway is halfway to Orange St...
So then it's just a short walk on Pump Street from there!
>> That would be a first for me (first time ever seeing trains on the south side tracks). <<
I ride that route every day... I was fortunate enough to notice a work train on the south side during morning rush (if memory serves) a couple weeks back... It was refreshing to finally see a train over there.
=Rednoise
Future Diamond-Q-er
The brilliant idiots are sending eight people in my transfer class on Thursday at 1000. the other two are supposed to report at 0530.
Double-check assignments to this training and make sure you are not in two places at the same time.
So how's it going so far? Last I heard, the bridge was still intact.
wow!! how many redbirds
cant they leave already????
>>wow!! how many redbirds
cant they leave already????<<
Not to be mean, nasty or anything similar, but:
STOP WITH THE CORONA REDBIRDS!!!!!
They'll be leaving soon enough.
Thanks
You have to be kidding me right?
Regards,
T.Lo
NO! THEY CAN NOT LEAVE!
Sorry for the outburst, I love those cars.
The R62A will show up on the Flushing Line in all due time. But while you wait, enjoy the redbirds. In a year, you can forget seeing a Subway Series Game and then taking the International Express home with all the neon lights on the street below lit up and the lights of Midtown on the horizon. That was one good ride. You won't be able to do that next baseball season.
Tell us of the (unfortunate) time when the R62As show up in Corona. Until then, we can assume there is nothing but redbirds out there.
MAINLINE R 33s are next to go to CORONA YARD then R 62as in about 2 years
R-62As in 3-4 Months, Don't get Happy, August the earliest! Try that info again sonny boy?!!
Regards,
T.Lo
the redbirds shoud do thier last run on the #7 !
the last fleet of them shoud finish on that line !
>>But while you wait, enjoy the redbirds.<<
What's to enjoy? No A/C? Loud Squeals? Rust? No thanks, I'll be glad when the '62s show up on the #7. It will signal the death of the birds. And then, the commuters will be happy. Who cares what the tourists who take shots want? They don't have to ride crush load 'birds.
wow. a redbird on the 7. who woulda thunk it. ohhhboy. don't forget to tell us next time you see such a wonderous sight.
;-D Andrew
This is like saying "R-68s seen in Concourse Yard"!
--Mark
Or "R-38s/R-44s spotted in 207th St. Yard".
::GASP!!::.... r62a's spotted at 240St. Yard!!!!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when the straight air builds up to 57 lbs. psi, it closes the emergency check valve, preventing the deadman feature from activating and causing an emergency application of the brakes.
I've recently experimented with R32, R46 and R68A equipment in which I have placed the brake valve in running release and let the straight air go down to zero lbs. I then immediately maneuvered the brake valve to the full service position and released the master controller before the air had a chance to build up to the minimum 57 lbs. psi. The R32 and R46 would have 35-40 lbs on the gauge, the R68A would have 30 lbs at the time the controller was released. None of the trains went in emergency.
My question is: Is it the position of the brake valve instead of the straight air itself that is manipulating the emergency check valve?
Or is it something other than the ecv that is keeping the train charged up?
Thanx.
It is the P2A pilot valve, located in the master controller that serves the function of the deadman, and in your case, keeps the train from dumping. You can drop the A/B B2, and have less than a few lbs on the SAP when placing the valve in full service and she won't dump the air. There are several other conditions that will KEEP a train charged. One is the emergency vent valve, which purpose is to sense rapid reductions of brake pipe. Once this valve moves to the emergency position, the EMVs will follow, electrically reducing brake pipe rapidly, allowing for other vent valves to go to emergency, and allow main reservoir air to flow to the brake cylinders after regulation by the operating units. Small leaks in the brake pipe such as the grommets on R44/46 can be made up for by the main reservoirs if the vent valve is not in the emergency position. Emergency contactors are another story. R68s are being rewired so that the contactors are fed by a circuit breaker. The train will charge fully after tripping the breaker, but will dump if the breaker is tripped after full charge is acheived.
You are almost absolutely correct. It should be 58 PSI to 60 PSI which is the minimum retention pressure for the deadman's feature. Two things could account for the discrepancy you find. First, the duplex air gauge does not always track the SAP and BP instantaneously. There may be a short delay. If it is allowed to stabilize and you still find the same condition, it's either an inaccurate duplex gauge (In the shops, the test port is used with a calibrated gauge) or the brake valve is simply out of adjustment. This should be reported as it is a safety feature that is not functioning properly.
Isn't there a cam on the stem of the ME42/43 stand which mechanically
closes the check valve when the handle reaches full service?
I'll have to pull out my drawings for the WABCO brake valves but that seems to be correct. It is definitely the case on the NYAB brake valve. Each check valve is adjusted to the appropriate cam position. I hope that i didn't give the impression that the check valves were operated by air. That would clearly be unacceptable.
Tomorrow I'll be taking a short trip on Metro North (Grand Central to Riverdale) and I'd like to know what I should keep an eye out for, as I don't frequent commuter rail.
Thanks.
Dan
Took Hudson Line today to glenwood to explore the old New York Central Railroad Power Plant, keep a lookout for old equipment dumped by ROW, not even on tracks, old merging lines and things of past times by ROW, keep a lookout for interesting graffiti and signs stating "Report Graffiti Vandals to MTA Police" take a longer ride and see the old NYCentral RR Power plant, and if you're balsy venture inside.
Not lack of balls but lack of time prevent that. Thanks.
Dan
Did you take the commuters ? Did you notice the differences between the M-1 & M-1a on MNRR ?
Mr t__:^)
I wouldn't know what to look for. It's over now, anyway.
I love M-1s. Silent, fast, smooth and railfan windows! Question: Do they have a speedometer that can be seen by passengers? I noticed a window into the T/O's cab but didn't see any speedometers and I wished I could have checked the speed because I'm sure we hit 60 at least at some point in the trip (between 59th and 96th and possibly again approaching Riverdale).
Dan
Disclaimer: The preceeding post was not meant to imply that M-1s are in any way, shape or form, good or bad subway cars. It was a statement of my opinion, from the perspective of a railfan, and not meant to comment on the quality or design of the cars. I merely state that I like them.
The preceeding was meant to divert any venemous replies of "M-1s are the best cars ever and you are a [deleted]" or "M-1s [deleted] and so do you, so go [deleted]. They had so many problems, they're so unreliable, they're so [deleted]. Just like you, for saying that you liked them."
Thank you.
Dan
The M-1s & M-3s on the LIRR do better then 60. The operator has a overspeed bell that warns him/her to slow down or else (she'll go into emergancy if the operator doesn't react quick enough to the bell).
I too love the M-1 & M-3s, maybe not quite as much as a Slant 40, but much better then a Hippo or Rino (yes Dude I know the Hippos are in fine mechanical shape).
Mr t__:^)
I always heard that bell whenever I was on the train, and I was correct in assuming that if the T/O doesn't slow down, they get nailed with a E brake application. I wish the LIRR would install speedos in the cabs so I don't hear the bell as much.
Last time I lookd (1983) there certainly were spedometers in the M1s, and the speedlimit was 79, which we did regularly.
The bell sounds for any change in the signal aspect which is shown by lights around the outside of the spedometer, the engineer must respond with the button, or with a control change in the locomotive cab.
Elias
Exactly right, i.e. it's not just a overspeed bell. The LIRR recently came up with the bright idea of making the bell sound longer ... it did for a while, but now it doesn't ... guess the union went to bat for the operators.
Mr t__:^)
If I am not mistaken isn't that a U.S FRA mandated feature which ensures the Train Engineer is alert? For when the controls are not touched for 25 seconds, the Alerter bell goes on, If it is not reset, the train brakes are applied.
they got those on NJtransit too... very annoying when your up front.
There's a measured mile on the MNRR New Haven line along a straightaway between Larchmont and Harrison, and I've clocked it at only 38 seconds with my stop watch fron the railfan window. That computes out to 94.7 MPH!
There's a measured mile on the MNRR New Haven line along a straightaway between Larchmont and Harrison, and I've clocked it at only 38 seconds with my stop watch fron the railfan window. That computes out to 94.7 MPH!
Harlem Line trains go about that fast between Chappaqua (bleech!) and Mt. Kisco.
According to the Staten Island Bus Map:
"Some trains operate express between Great Kills and St. George because of the heavy flow of traffic during rush hour."
Some questions:
1. Does the SIRT have more than two tracks anywhere between Great Kills and St. George? If not, how does this help reduce traffic on the line, especially when the headways are "15 minutes."
2. Are short turn trips operated during rush hour?
3. On these express trains, is Great Kills the last station not skipped, or the first station skipped before St. George?
And just a general question, which stations have exceptionally high ridership? (I would imagine that around 90% of the trips taken somehow involve St. George).
1) The MTA Staten Island Railway (SIR) only has two main tracks between St. George and Tottenville signaled in one direction only.
2) Short trips? SIR calls them expresses but they are limiteds in reality. PM Rush is easy, the first train meeting teh boat will operate EXPRESS to Great Kills then local to Tottenville (No stops from St. George to GK). 3 to 5 minutes after that departure a local leaves making all stops from St. George to Tottenville. One boat that is the heavest the local (2nd train) skips the first three stops too.
The AM rush to St. George is more complicated. There is even a train that just stops at three stations and runs express to St. George. I suggest you go to the SIR web site and see their time table at http://www.lirr.org/nyct/service/sisched.pdf.
The AM rush does a great job of moving people to meet the boats from the various stations with a mixture of all stop locals, skip stop limiteds and true expresses.
3) The time table used to list the first two stations in each direction (after terminals) as flag stops. You had to tell the crew or flag the train if you wanted to detrain at these stations. The rush hour schedule still reflects this. In the AM if you want to get to Tomkinsville (the station before St. George) your best bet is to ride into St. George and come back out on a Tottenville train. The station is so close to St. George you can walk it (except for the large hill >G<).
The way they work it is the local from the previous boat terminates at Great Kills a few minutes prior to the express from the NEXT boat arriving at GK. Most local used to run all the way down. PM rush trips are expresses from St. George to Tottenville, making all stops south of GK. Locals run from St. George to GK, and reverse. Most run light back to St. George.
AM Rush trains originate at one of three places; Tottenville, Huguenot, and GK. Three trains make the 8AM boat, the biggest load. One leaves Tottenville (703), local all the way. Another leaves Huguenot (724), makes stops Huguenot to Eltingville and New Dorp to Grasmere. Last train leaves GK at 735, stops GK, Bay Terrace, and Oakwood, then runs express all the way to the boat. All three trains arrive within the same 10 minute window (746, 750, 753)
In other news, SIR shuttle trains to the Ballpark from the Ferry ran 3-cars off of track 11. A flier made note of baseball specials, one inbound, one outbound. Fare required for exit.
-Hank
Don't they plan to put in a new signal system that will allow trains going in peak direction to use both tracks?
Yes, signaling both way via cab signal like MNRR not like subway's L line is planned. I don't know the status, Hank?
Still being worked on.
-Hank
Strange movie, that's for sure. Not to mention that it's the only movie I've ever seen where there's an end credit for "ant wrangler." Anyway, the blooper appears around halfway through. The main character, Max, is at the 47-50th Street station, presumably waiting for an F train to bring him back to his apartment near East Broadway. He sees a man on the opposite island platform dripping blood from his hand. Max goes rushing over to the other platform - and suddenly is at the 15th Street station in Brooklyn. It's a possible blooper because Max is very disturbed (to put it mildly) and the whole thing might have been a hallucination of sorts.
Another blooper occured earlier in the movie, when Max walks between cars on an F train, which of course uses 75-foot cars with locked end doors.
Another such case:
I forgot the title of the movie, but it was only playing at the 3-D IMAX theater at Broadway & 68th. It involved a young immigrant boy's adventures by himself in NYC.
He boarded a subway train to "South Ferry", according to the front sign. Shortly after, there was a railfan view of the train speeding along. By quickly looking at the station signs, I noticed that it was actually going down the Queens-bound A line on the express track, between the Hoyt/Schermerhorn St. & Broadway/East New York stations.
On another subject, Pi was still an excellent film.
The IMAX film....Across The Sea Of Time.
Did you also notice the outside-looking-in shots of the front end of the train, how PHONY the end of the train looked? I other words, it was a studio mockup.
While he is moving the doors the car quickly changes from an R-46 to an R-32, then back to an R-46. He never actually moved the R-46 doors.
While he is moving the doors the car quickly changes from an R-46 to an R-32, then back to an R-46. He never actually moved the R-46 doors.
Hmmm, didn't notice that. Fortunately, I haven't yet returned the DVD to Blockbuster, I'll have to check that out. There was a very clear shot of an R-32 in a later scene, with its number (which I don't remember) clearly visible.
Strange movie, that's for sure. Not to mention that it's the only movie I've ever seen where there's an end credit for "ant wrangler." Anyway, the blooper appears around halfway through. The main character, Max, is at the 47-50th Street station, presumably waiting for an F train to bring him back to his apartment near East Broadway. He sees a man on the opposite island platform dripping blood from his hand. Max goes rushing over to the other platform - and suddenly is at the 15th Street station in Brooklyn. It's a possible blooper because Max is very disturbed (to put it mildly) and the whole thing might have been a hallucination of sorts.
Update: this should not be considered a blooper. I just watched the director's commentary, and this station change is acknowledged and explained. Turns out that the filmmakers had to shoot their subway scenes "on the sly" during the overnight hours because they couldn't afford to get filming permits. They shifted the scene to 15th Street because there were too many people around 47-50th for the lengthy sequence involved.
On Saturday, I transferred from the R to the J at Canal. The Canal St(Bridge) station had leaks, mist on the tiles, and the floor was wet. One question: Are the TA done rebuilding this station? I hope not, there is still some work to be done.
Man, they are just getting started with Canal St. (or, they should be). Aside from the delayed but now finished rehab of the N/R & #6 platforms, there is a plan on the books to permanently reroute the J/M/Z lines thru the western (southbound) platforms as well as the Bridge line platform.
Sit thight. Things could get awfully hectic down there!
Canal St will always leak. It was once a canal, remember.
True, true.
Both platforms are now "done." You'll be glad it leaks and stuff and it's all moist down there on a hot summer day.
If there are leaks, it's not the main cause of most of the wetness. The culprit is simple condensation. There will be water beaded on the walls and soaked floors until October. In August, it will be like you're swimming through there!
That station has natural air conditioning ...
The condensation is good. It doesn't smell like sh*t when it's wet (probably because the causes of the stench don't like to go in a wet station).
Once trains run through there regularly, the A/C will blow out hot air so maybe it the temperature will be higher and there won't be condensation. But I'd rather it be cool and have the condensation. The Canal street bridge station is heaven in a heat wave, hopefully it will remian cool once trains start stopping there.
BTW it is gonna get into the 90s this week, brace yourself.
Yesterday evening, I'm at Bkln Bridge waiting for the express to come in. Its a quarter to nine. A bunch of R-142s in the 7290s pull in out of the Loop. Then the #5 pulls in, lead motor 7919. Get on, but there's someone at the railfan window. Oh well, guess I'll have to wait.
It's a rough ride to Union Square. Obviously this was a T/O who decided to gun it thru the curve. We pull in. I notice a lady only a few years older than I doing something strange on the platform. She gets on with the usual large crowd at the station. She takes the seat by the door, where I'm at still waiting for the window to clear. Then I found out what she was doing: Because it got hot down in that sauna I used to love, she felt it necessary to do that trick some other women know how to do. That is, to pull her bra outside the sleeve of her shirt!!!
I'd never seen that before, even though I heard about it. Anyway, after that I was hoping that the redbirds I was on could still live up to the "bird" part of the equation, on the trip to 125th. Didn't matter too much, 'cause she got off at 86th, and by then I got the window.
On the remainder of the trip, I was hoping to catch the hybrid set of R-142s and R-142As that I found on the #6 earlier in the day. Nothing doing. As the train flew into the dip outside 116th, I could notice the R-29s pulling in overhead. Oh well, might as well enjoy the windows while I still can.
Only in NY.
Did anyone call Howard Stern ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Thankfully, no.
That's a magical power women have, to take off an undergarment while the top clothes are still on. By "magical", I actually mean (in this case), born of necessity. Y'see it's not actually magic.
Hmmm. Feminism? I don't know if such a stunt qualifies. Maybe if she burned it afterwards (easy to do on a redbird or on a platform.) I supose it's no unfeminist.
:-) Andrew
I shouldn't have said it as "feminism" but as "feminist." But heck, it still close to outrageous.
That is nothing. I saw a woman on an F train during rush hour put on a pair of slacks while she was wearing a skirt, then take off the skirt - ON THE TRAIN, WHICH WAS FULL OF PASSENGERS. She got off the train at Parsons Blvd. I just looked at another guy on the train and we shook our heads in disbelief. Beat that one, guys. What some train crews get to see sometimes makes you want to holler, and throw up your hands.
That is nothing. I saw a woman on an F train during rush hour put on a pair of slacks while she was wearing a skirt, then take off the skirt - ON THE TRAIN, WHICH WAS FULL OF PASSENGERS. She got off the train at Parsons Blvd. I just looked at another guy on the train and we shook our heads in disbelief. Beat that one, guys. What some train crews get to see sometimes makes you want to holler, and throw up your hands.
Heh, that doesn't remotely compare with what Anon-e-mouse once saw a woman do on the Dyre Avenue line. I'll leave it to him to fill in the details.
If you are hinting at what I think you are hinting at, all I can say is where is a cop when you need one?
was she "mystical"? I ofcourse ask this for Qs purposes. Of course
I can't stand it any more. One of my all-time favorite movies and each time I watch it I see more and more mistakes. Here are the most recent:
1) Early in the movie, it's made clear that Pelham 123 is 10 cars long. Robert Shaw tells the Motorman to "collect the passengers from the 9 cars we cut away......" Even earlier, the train operator is operating from car #7339. The C/R is operating from car #7434. This would then be the 6th car. When they cut the lead car away, the properly use the long section from which the cut is made. That car is car #7434. Now it's the 2nd car.
Again, in that same scene, Martin balsam (Mr. Green) is the former motorman who makes the cut. As he does, he's looking backwards as into a rearview mirror. Motormen look foward when cutting to see that they move clear of the cut section. The real error is that when the cut is made, the tail lights and not the headlights are illuminated on car #7434.
Maybe you should stop watching it for a while.
AAAAAHHHHHCCCCCCHHHHHOOOO!!!!!
Gesundheit.
Thanks
I'm sure you noticed that the first car of Pelham 1-2-3 when it pulls into 59th St. is not even an R-21/22; its front storm door has a single pane of glass. Oi gevalt!
Remember that part in the movie when the car was out of control with no T/O and the the stations that it bypasses clearly shows it was on the Lex Ave Line. So why did the girl in the tower kept on saying that it was heading for the SF loop. I may not be an expert with track maps, but I don't think you can access the SF loop from that line. Not unless the car switched over to the express track before BB/CH.
At the time the original Pelham was made, the 6 DID run to South Ferry part of the time, but not during middays. There is a scissor switch north of Brooklyn Bridge, and in those days the local track had a switch to permit trains to continue onto Fulton St. over a track which has since been removed.
Keep in mind that one of the hijackers' demands was that the local track be cleared all the way to South Ferry.
One other thing - the South Ferry loop opened in 1905. At one time, all Lexington Ave. trains used it.
Thanx for clearing that up. Also learned a little more subway history.
Don't mention it.
Our very own PELHAM BAY DAVES in the post.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nice article.
Way to go, Daves.
In the NY Post? Oh well, I suppose there are worse places to get famous.
Anyway Congrats!!!
Atta boyz! Way to go!! Congratulations on making history!
--Mark
Congrats, guys... nice to see the subways get some positive press for a change.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That fishwrap is hard to find up here but managed to get a copy of it since there was FINALLY a reason to do so. It's a KEEPER! Glad to finally get a glimpse of the "twin Daves" and hope you guys had fun working together ... hopefully this will be archived by the TA as a story for the generations as well, framed in the transit museum. I think it's really cool.
Yes it is fun. I like how the story came out.
Hopefully, the TA, looking to put a human face on a bureaucracy, will make good use of the phenomenon. But as I'm sure one other has cautioned, you guys both have to be very careful when working together since the assumption will be that you'll cover each other's butt. Play it strict, by the rules and remember the operating procedure ... WRITE DOWN EVERYTHING, no matter how small just in case someone else gets a dose of sour grapes. It happens. But that is just SO cool that both of you are working the railroad together at the same time.
My pops was an independent taxicab owner at the time I plied the rails. He thought I was NUTS wanting to work in a hole in the ground. :)
Thanks everyone! All I have to say is "WOW"! I did not know the first day I took the 8:08 out that I was making TA history. By the way I will be on the 8:08 Pelham tomorrow morning as well to do it again. Well now almost anyone who did not have a clue who I am now knows me. I guess I can't hide. It was funny how the train clock goes off in the middle of the interview. I think that more then anything showed the train buff side of me.
I wonder if anyone heard the Newsradio 88 broadcast on Saturday I never got a chance to hear it.
Dave, I will try to have a colleague at Newsradio-880 get a copy of the report if possible. Wish I could have heard it too!
If that report finds its way to a .RA, .WAV, .MP3 or similar file, would love to find it somewhere. We're in way too close to WGY's (810) tower out here ... WCBS requires planetary alignments to be picked out of the splatter in this neck of the woods ...
Hey, Kev, do you pick up WABC? My cousin once said he could pick it up in Montreal.
Yep ... that station was a "clear channel" ... you could hear it in London too ...
Ain't that a kick!!!! You can get WABC in Montreal and London, I can get WFAN and WABC in my car down here in Delaware but I can't get local Delaware stations clearly IN MY OWN LIVING ROOM!!!!
When I am in the Poconos, I can pick up WINS and Bloomberg from NYC easily. I also get stations from Chicago, Philly, Baltimore, Washington, and Cleveland, among other places.
Yep ... most of those come in here too ... the problem right where *I* am is that we're less than a mile away from the antenna farm known as WGY Schenectady, 810 on the dial. When you're in THAT close to an AM station, anything "next door" gets CLOBBERED ... 880 is one of the bodies found in the courtyard owing to where we are. and forget anything at 1600 on the dial either.
Strictly geography, "blanket coverage" and about 35 VOLTS of RF on the antenna ... WC Fields land ... "never give CBS an even break."
Thanks!
Dave, do you sometimes stand in front of #6 Redbird train's railfan window and chat with you dad when he is that train's operator?
I ask this question because when I look at the photo of the New York Post, it reminds me on a Saturday of last November (actually November 18, 2000). I rode car #9494 and I saw a guy standing in front of the railfan window and was very familiar with the operator. When the train arrived at Brooklyn Bridge, I asked the operator whether I can do camcording along the City Hall Loop, and I was denied the request because of rules. That was fine for me. Later I was doing camcording at Brooklyn Bridge.
From the photo of New York Post and my experience last November, I realized that I did ride a Redbird train operated by Pelham Bay Dave Sr., but I did not know that at that time!
Chaohwa
Yes I use to always ride by the railfan window on the Redbirds and even more fun when riding my dad's train. Yes you and other people who go to the front may have seen me. Also we where always there for the LOW V fan trips.
I still look out the front window and still ride on my dads train if I get an Assignment that finishes before he does but unlike the good old past when there were more Redbirds to go around now I rideing on the R142. Its funny we had R142A's for all 3 trips. Then again one of my C/R classmates was following me all day got 3 Redbirds. I'll tell you after 3 trips on the R142 I think the computer was programming me.
I think you all know who I look like the big guy in the photo who is 19 Years old. Don't be shy to say hello.
You are a son that your father can be be very proud of. You pursued you dream to work on the Subways and you are doing a great job!
If my son only had 1/10 of the interest I do in subways, I'd be happy.
I e-mail him articles from Sub-talk and I'm sure he's totally bored
with them. He does tell me stuff about the Washington Metro, on occasion, where he lives with his soon to be bride (this Sunday!).
Keep up the good work!
Chuck Greene
I rode R-142As on the #6 yesterday. I noticed that all cars on a consist, in which #7229 was part of it, had missing art work. That's the artwork placed on the interior side of the side destination sign.
Did they forget to put them in, or is there different art work on the horizon ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Tell the truth Bill, they're in your basement. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
"Tell the truth Bill, they're in your basement. 8-)"
Um....er...they're in BMTman's basement. Yes, that's where they are !! Whew !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Dont worry everyone, I can assure everyone there soon will be "artwork" there. I promise.
I've heard that the MTA is looking to have the system completely Automated between the years 2020 and 2030. R-143's are probably the beginning of the Era. Maybe the Automation of the L line will be sorta like a test to see if an Automation of the rest of the System can be done and is it worth it.
I guess from this that the R-160 will have the Automation Ability and so will the next cars for the IRT or even the R-142 might have them. Just imagine if the L line automation is perfect and the MTA goes full blast. By the year 2030 there will be more computers running the system instead of humans.
Hey at least with Automation we will get the Railfan Window back (lol)
Gee, didn't the R44 came with ATO capablity that was disabled and later removed?
Virginia Division - BMT
Both the R-44 and the R-46 came with the ability to run on automated lines. It was assumed at the time that the Second Av. Subway, which was to be automated and seerviced by both said units, was to be ready for service by the mid - 80s. But, of course, the city ran out of cash, and for a long time the focus of transit was on interstate highway construction.
Thus, both units will have served out their days running completly under manual control.
welcome to BART circa 1973. (opened in 72 but ATC was not certified by state PUC for several months.)
BART circa 1973 had computers circa 1963!
PATCO was in service before FART err.. BARTD
"PATCO was in service before FART err.. BARTD"
Phil,
Isn't FART Frisco Area Rapid Transit ?
Bill "Newkirk"
lol( if you are making fun of it) that never existed. FART makes the system sound unsafe and rediculous. thats why they named it BART (Bay area Rapid Transit) though you already know that.
I have been to Travis AFB in Fairfield CA. The Fairfield Area Rapid Transit existed at one time. I have a slide of one of their buses.
to be more realistic, the system will be phagoautomated. in other words, the system will be runned by computers with human operation. a computer running everything by itself is very unreliable and unsafe and will cripple the whole system. for example, those metrocard vending machines sometimes can't give back correct change, can't give a single ride, can't give metrocards period, and can malfunction, filling up the token booth line causing the agent hell. this is why Jamaica center Parsons/Archer still has two agents instead of one on the rush hours and weekends. this is to tell you machines conk out. humans do to but not as frequently. that is why they are put in charge of monitoring machinery. and if you think that computers will take over think again. in france the new TGV is fully automated. the computer runs the train and everything eventhough there is train crew. the computer malfunctioned and reversed the train going back where it came from at top speed meanwhile another train is going the way it is coming. if no human was there to monitor the computer, a massacre would have happened.
That's somewhat true, that's why you see T/Os on WMATA, BART, SP Metro and MARTA, even though they are all ATO. However, ZPTO will eventually happen, because the technology already exists. A good example of a very busy system with ZPTO is Hartsfield's people mover, it moves about 250,000 people a day with no problems. There's also Line 14 in Paris that's completely automated. Once the proper infrastructure is in place (ie, platform doors, refined ATC systems, etc.) then subways will go to full automation. It will never happen overnight, it'll be done in steps.
Your Hartsfield People Mover broke down on me when I was in Atlanta. I was going to Terminal B and got on at the T gates since I was heading to my plane. At terminal A, after it did the doors closing announcement, the doors shut but the train didn't move. We were there for 3-5 minutes with no info, no help, and no movement. Finally, the doors reopened for a second, closed again with the announcement, and we were off. What happened was never known but on a subway serving NYC, that can't happen.
It can't happen, eh? Don't subway cars there break down while in service even with two person operation? I'm sure there are many breakdowns that cause delays for more than 3-5 minutes.
I don't like the airport in Atlanta's automated train. The doors seem to go fine, but I always look out the front window and when heading to Terminal T from A/B, you end up having two trains going right at each other up until it seems like you're going to ram but one of the trains takes a switch and clears 10-15 seconds before you cross it. Scary.
I don't like the airport in Atlanta's automated train. The doors seem to go fine, but I always look out the front window and when heading to Terminal T from A/B, you end up having two trains going right at each other up until it seems like you're going to ram but one of the trains takes a switch and clears 10-15 seconds before you cross it. Scary.
First I'll assume you switched the words airport and automated train.
What you've experienced is the computer system WORKING. It may be scary to you, but nobody forces you to look out the front.
That one of the best parts of the people mover. You get to see the switch change over and what the cars look like.
The airport plans on adding an additional train to the system when it orders new cars soon. That mean even closer headways!
But if it is such a large system like NYC subway, total zero person operation is not safe. There must be someone monitoing the train, or it might be dangerous if there is a malfunction. Zero Person Operation is only good for small or medium scaled system. I bet ZPTO would not exsit in NYC subway until 2100.
But a total automation operation until 2020, that's too late. Total automation does not mean there will have a railfan window too.
We won't get a railfan window. ATO means OPTO which means full width cabs.
No, look at PATCO or SEPTA MFL. You don't need transverse cabs with closed circut TV piped into the T/O's cab as seen on the MFL. PATCO just has all island platforms and lots of mirriors.
NYC will move to a full width setup. Unlike PATCO, they have platforms on both sides.
That's when they use Closed Circut Cameras. With a transverse it takes time for the O to Open the doors. The best wayto illustrate this is to ride the MFL and transfer to the BSS. On the BSS there is a about a noticable delay for the operator to open the doors. The MFL has CCTV and even though it has both sidewall and island platforms the doors open right away.
Also, PATCO frequently wrong rails and you'll see the OP making use of the mirriors.
>>ATO means OPTO which means full width cabs.<<
The last time ATO was run in the NYC subway was when the 42nd st. shuttle ran ATO R-21's. I'm pretty sure that they had railfan windows.
ATO- Automatic Train Operation
OPTO- One Person Train Operation
And, just in case:
CBTC- Communications Based Train Control
That was before they could even run OPTO. With the subway in the state it is in, as CBTC and ATO are installed, OPTO will also be found on more lines.
But ATO can be run with a railfan window.
ATO usually does not come with a railfan window. If ATO comes with a railfan window, it is an ZPTO. As I said before, a large-scaled system such as NYC subway needs to have an operator stand by in case of emergency. Thus, it needs to have full width cab for monitoring both sides of the cab, because monitoring the plaform while stopping is one of the responsibility of the operator. He needs to have easy access to both sides. If there is a railfan window, passengers might block the operators way. So when the automation comes, this will be the end of railfan window in subway.
Philly's Market -Frankford cars have a single cab system with cameras that allow the operator to see both sides of the train. Therefore, no full width cab is needed with OPTO, and we have 3 seats on the left side front that are great for railfanning! Anyone see any problems with this?
Chuck Greene
Thus, it needs to have full width cab for monitoring both sides of the cab, because monitoring the plaform while stopping is one of the responsibility of the operator.
Totally unneccessary. Obstruction sensors do the job well.
He needs to have easy access to both sides. If there is a railfan window, passengers might block the operators way.
In the event an operator is kept, cameras could be used.
Totally unneccessary. Obstruction sensors do the job well.
The NYC subway system is not very good for zero person train operation, there are a few reasons. Firstly, NYC subway is not specialized design for ZPTO, the ZPTO system we are running is specially designed. Secondly, computer might have operational errors, or even worse, the computer might shut down. We don't know what will happen to the train if we don't have any attendents on broad, passengers might panic. May be new technology can overcome the problem, but I'm afriad centralized control centres cannot afford this work load.
In the event an operator is kept, cameras could be used.
Human is a bit better than camera, in a curve platform, how many cameras are needed to monitor the platform? Also transverse cab is a trend in the world, operator feel more safer in a transverse cab.
The NYC subway system is not very good for zero person train operation, there are a few reasons. Firstly, NYC subway is not specialized design for ZPTO, the ZPTO system we are running is specially designed.
So what? Things can be retrofitted.
Secondly, computer might have operational errors, or even worse, the computer might shut down.
The human might make a mistake, or even worse, the human might fall unconscious.
We don't know what will happen to the train if we don't have any attendents on broad, passengers might panic.
Most people don't think about it. It's not like the operator is all that visible. People don't panic in elevators, they won't panic on the subway.
"People don't panic in elevators, they won't panic on
the subway."
I don't feel that's a particularly good analogy.
Yes, in the old days, there was a visible human being operating the elevator. Except in fancy hotels, that person has all but vanished. The distinction between elevator operators and motormen is that the elevator operator was performing a function for the convenience of the passenger -- the motorman is performing a task required for the passenger because he or she cannot do it themselves. Passengers can operate elevators. They've been able to do it on their own since the beginning. Passengers can't drive the subway.
The key is that operating the subway is an unknown activity. There is a whole field of risk analysis that deals with the public's perception of engineering. If I recall correctly (it's been a while), there are two axes: tangibility and comprehension. People fear nuclear power because radiation is very mysterious to most, and very intangible. Where would ATO fall on these axes? The answer is surely subjective.
A better analogy would be to modern air travel. Do you know the story of the pilot and the dog? It goes something like this: in the future, there will be only a pilot and a dog in the cockpit. The pilot is there to keep the dog company, and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he tries to touch anything. Aircraft have been mostly automated for some time now, yet there is still a flight crew. Similar to the subway, passengers cannot fly the plane, nor do they understand its operation.
In the end, there will be a flight crew for a long time, even though they aren't needed. Similarly, I feel there will be a motorman in a transverse cab, even if he isn't needed either.
MATT-2AV
>>> Passengers can operate elevators. They've been able to do it on their own since the beginning. <<<
Since the beginning of what? Did you ever ride an elevator with a controller? It took skill and practice for an operator to line up the car with a floor and start and stop the elevator smoothly. Then they manually opened the elevator gate or door. General automation of elevators in commercial buildings did not arrive until the ‘60s.
The typical elevator rider in the ‘30s in the Empire State Building had no more ability to operate the elevators there than the typical subway rider today has of operating an R142.
Tom
Human is a bit better than camera, in a curve platform, how many cameras are needed to monitor the platform?
What about the person? Do they need to walk down the platform to see past the curve?
Also transverse cab is a trend in the world, operator feel more safer in a transverse cab.
Wouldn't matter if there was no operator period.
, computer might have operational errors, or even worse, the computer might shut down
That's why they have backups and a backup for the backup. Keep in mind that this will be 50+ years in the future, computers as we know it now won't exist. Who knows what will be possible.
in a curve platform, how many cameras are needed to monitor the platform?
In Sao Paulo, they use cameras and on the curved platforms, they usually have two cameras and they can see the whole platform.
Regardless of whether a full-width cab is necessary with ATO or OPTO, you won't see the return of the "railfan" window in NYC subway car design for the foreseeable future.
Subway cars aren't designed for railfans. The railfan is the absolute last person on the engineer's mind when she sits down and starts conceptualizing her subway car -- passengers and operations are of paramount importance.
The MTA has decided time and time again that a full-width cab is required for efficient operations, even in light of future automation. I theorize that the full-width cab would be retained in future automated subway cars, even for the rare event that an automated train would need to be handled under manual control. Automation doesn't necessarily mean dropping humans out of the equation.
As an aside, I personally feel that the absence of a full-width cab in a subway system where the conductor may be required to operate doors from either side of the train is a design error. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the conductor walk from one redbird to another on the Lexington Ave. IRT local between 42nd Street-GCT and 51st Street. I also don't see why the motorman, the most important person on the train, the person responsible for the safety and well-being of everyone, has to spend his or her day in a broom closet with only one forward window.
In the end, I don't know what the future will bring. The MTA could certainly have a change of heart. Automation might lead to fewer operations cries for full-width cabs, and allow the MTA to a) increase the capacity of a subway car and b) simplify car maintenance by eliminating A and B car design.
MATT-2AV
If they did go to full ATO (ZPTO), they would probably still need the front cab if nothing more than as a computer room for all the high-tech operating equipment.
If they did go to full ATO (ZPTO), they would probably still need the front cab if nothing more than as a computer room for all the high-tech operating equipment.
The cab wouldn't have to be all that wide, and it wouldn't have to be in the front. And it could all be under the floor.
>>> The cab wouldn't have to be all that wide, and it wouldn't have to be in the front. And it could all be under the floor. <<<
I hope you guys are enjoying the mental masturbation about what an automated subway could look like, but remember this thread started with the thought that full automation would reach the NYC subways by 2030. I personally think that is too short a time frame, but if it occurs by then it will be introduced on an incremental basis, one line at a time, and at least the first generation of automated subway cars will have full manual controls as a backup operating system, and therefore look very similar to the R142 or perhaps be a modification of the R142 and R143.
The thought that something like the Paris Line 14 train will appear in New York in the next 30 years is a pipe dream.
Tom
PATCO cars have a railfan window (on the right, operator sits on the left in an open cab),and they have ATO, but they may not fit the version of ATO as it seems to be defined here, since the operator still controls the doors.
But something like WMATA's if you have a person in there. That is about as good as its going to get in our lifetimes.
That is about as good as its going to get in our lifetimes.
Man, you ARE a pessimist.
How old are you know? Assuming you die when you're 85 (reasonable assumption) that gives you about 70 more years to live.
Think about how things now are different than they were in the 1930s.
In those 70 years enough life-extending technology could have been invented to make you live even longer than that. How do you even know that you won't live to the 22nd Century?
ATO IS NOT OPTO! ATO is ZPTO (Zero Person Train Operation). If there's an operator there, that person is not an operator, that person is a watcher-outer.
Your right in certain extent, but if the computer is out of order, the operator have to operate by himself.
yes you are right but, the main reasons that it will be false is because the New york City Transit system is very big. it makes most transit systems look like they are only a city block long. so zero human operation is dangerous. also, in the United States, laws will prevent machines from taking over especially the unions will prevent that. They will use machines instead of human power in europe to save money but over here they will not. people need to live. plus the less workers we have, the worse our economy will be.
Automation took over the bulk of car manufacturing, among other industries, yet there's still a need for workers. Also, it will be a gradual thing, it's not like all the T/Os will be laid off the next day.
I've have read all messages posted on this topic up to about 2PM Wednesday. There doesn't seem to be any purpose to have the NYC subway automated, other then having the boast of "we did it!" The only purpose of having an autmated system is taking away train crews. Apparently, we're still going to have a "watcher-outer" so he might as well be driving the train. And the other person of the train crew's salary goes to paying for the special "elevator door" sensors, the computers for the automation, etc. Not to mention the fact that we have to more and more people in the towers monitoring trains now at every second since it isn't being human controlled. I don't know if it's really worth the effort. Efforts like these should go to the 2nd Ave subway. That should come first. Let's make sure first of all that the R142s and R160s are a success long term and they will live up to the standards Bombardier and Kawasaki say they will. Something like automation is not for New York City. Maybe the L line or the shuttles can have these for experiments, but in the terms of the entire system it is not worth the risk or the effort. The customers will not know the difference and as said before the only people who'll care is railfans like us and as said, we are at the bottom of the MTAs list in priority. Customers who need to get where they're going come first.
You fail to realize the longterm cost saving a well engineered automation effort would yeild. Eventually you will not need anyone on board each train. The watcher will most likely be a transitional position for 10 years or so until people feel comfortable with driverless trains. In addition the cost of auomation has to be reduced by the cost of maintenace and replacement of the old train control equiptment.
Each additional person in a crew coast his a huge expense
$35,000 salary
$8000 payrole tax
$10,000 health insurnace a year
aprox $60 k a
plus 30 years of pension and helth insurance after retirement
Automation results in few less skilled jobs, increase in higher paid, higher skilled jobs
The additional staff at the control towers will eventually amount to the doorman in a building who glances up at the elevator boear from time to time.
I hope not. I'm just too nostalgic. It was hand-driven in 1904, and I hope it stays that way until the end of time. The train is too historical and romantic to be altered so much.
- Construction on the Bergen Tunnels has begun...or at least, the north tube (two tracks) is closed off.
- All service is operating by the south tube (two tracks).
- Trains appear to be running 2-minute headways or less during the peak of the rush. Some trains experience LESS waiting for signals now than they did before the tunnel closure.
- Nobody seems to be that upset about it; NJT's propaganda campaign seems to have worked.
- Engines for the cancelled trains are stored every which place in the Hoboken yard; one is even on the unused "wye" track from the Main/Bergen line to the Morris/Essex lines.
- No equipment or workers can be seen from the other tunnel.
- The Pennsy GG-1 has been moved into the shop (has all other engine maintenance been deferred?). It is now only visible head-on from the employee parking lot and the end of platforms 1, 2, and maybe 3 if you're lucky.
- The old shop has been completely demolished. Only a concrete shed (offices?) remains standing. There is a lot of scrap metal, concrete, and broken glass remaining to be removed before they can do anything with the land.
- Surveying work continues on the River Line north of Hoboken (soon to be the HBLR extension).
> Engines for the cancelled trains are stored every which place in
> the Hoboken yard; one is even on the unused "wye" track from the
> Main/Bergen line to the Morris/Essex lines.
Probably a "protection" engine-- in case of a breakdown in the tunnel they need that train out of there FAST.
> The Pennsy GG-1 has been moved into the shop (has all other engine
> maintenance been deferred?).
All done at Meadows Maintenance Complex now...
-dave
The local news/propaganda did mention protection engines on both ends of the remaining tube.....
I was watching Bronx News station Channel 12 and "Pelham Bay" Dave and his son were mentioned on a segment during the news broadcast.
The segment mentioned that this is the first time in NYC Transit history that a father and son both work the same line.
Congratulations!
Yep I saw it and read in in the post. This is amazing, maybe I can be in the papers as the youngest/ brightest MTA president in history.
But CONGRATS to the Father and Son team. That is cool.
Yeah... get ready for the heavy bureaucracy and employees who don't wanna do anything. Basically, no one can do anything in the TA wihtout the consent of a million other people (who might not even have anything to do with the TA), and if one doesn't want a proposition to happen, it probably won't. Also, it takes forever to get anything done because of the bureaucracy...
Guess you got something to look foward to...
A new O scale Prewar PCC trolley model will soon be available from GHB International. It will be ready to run, painted and powered. The model is being produced for GHB International in the USA. It is not a brass model. It will be painted in the Brooklyn&Queens Transit two-tone green paint scheme. For more information, contact GHB International.
Mike Bartel
Two-tone green was a Board of Transportation scheme, not BQT.
Come to Branford & see 1001 in the right colors.
Mr t
Check out the IHP website for new information on commuter car models in 2001/2002. (http://ihphobby.tripod.com)
HO Scale: PATH PA-4 cars (2002), Budd LIRR M-1 cars (reissue, 2001), Budd SEPTA Silverliner MU cars(2002), PRR MP-54 MU cars (2001)
O Scale:Philadelphia & Western Brill Bullet cars (2001)
Also, we are producing a custom production run of HO scale NYCTA R-40 Slant-Nose cars for Collector's Corner. Watch for them towards Christmas!
If anyone is interested in producing a custom run of models, we do that too. Contact us for information.
Mike Bartel
mkwb@excite.com
http://ihphobby.tripod.com
Does anyone know whether any test trains have run on the South side "H" tracks on the Manhattan Bridge? If so, what is the procedure? Is a full-length revenue-type train run? Locomotive? How many times? Who rides along? (just train crew, engineers from TA and or DOT?)
When these tracks were last used, in 1990 after having been closed for 2 years, they had to be closed again in about a month after new problems with the bridge emerged. As we all know, they've remained closed ever since.
It would be a real transportation disaster if a new problem emerged after the big switch on 7/22, so I was wondering what had been done to try ensure against that....
I have no clue, but if the bridge ends up being totally unusable then here's what I'd propose:
B/D: Concourse-34th, just as proposed
D in Brooklyn turns into Y: Brighton Bch-Franklin Ave on shuttle tracks, 4 car train
Q in Brooklyn runs express and then to DeKalb to tunnel to Broadway exp
N stays the same
W is Pacific-Coney Island all times except nights where it's 36th-CI
R stays the same
M terminates at Chambers all times except off-hours where it terminates at Myrtle
***I know this is way inconvenient, but it's the best plan for the situation, at least until they build the Rutgers connection.
Why does the N get to go into Manhattan as opposed to the B?
Because it (the N) has, does, and always will have more priorty over an alien line on its own turf. And the B(W) does not have to serve Astoria. And it would be stupid to have the N run via tunnel and the W on the bridge weekdays, full N route and W shuttle nights, and the W via tunnel weekends and no N(unless you were planning on sticking all of lower Manhattan and the Broadway local with the R). The Sea Beach may be less used, but the politicians along the line would be in an uproar if it were cut out of Manhattan on weekends because of a problem affecting the West End and Brighton.
Plus, I hate the idea.
Oops, I didn't read the previous post (what I get for using Chronological). Anyway, the N is more the Broadway line than the B, and the bridge problem affects only the BDQ. Anyway, Manny B is not falling down. A little shaky, but not falling!
Regardless, I don't see why the W should be curtailed on the weekends. Only one Q service will use the south side tracks, the W has plenty of room. Run it to 57th/7th or Queensbridge as was done in the last flip.
Wait until August when people will find out the W is truncated in Brooklyn. A bloodbath will ensure.
LOL - You're right, it will be until August that people realize the W will be curtailed on Weekends, two weekends after the change takes effect of course!
If the W were to go through:
1. Bridge work. Trains sent through tunnel. W cut.
2. Tunnel work. Trains sent over bridge (one direction). W cut.
3. Station rehab (remember that?). All trains express in one direction (they're still doing that at night!). W cut.
During all of these, it will be a lot easier if, from day one, signage directs and people expect to take the Q to Atlantic and get the W.
At least they gave the W Pacific st so people could xfer to the Q, plus they have the 4th ave express run. Would you have preferred 36th, so people would have to get the N local then Q?
BTW: I want weekend Ws too, but I can see why the MTA will not do it. I think if there's enough demand and if they see that they will not have as many GOs affecting the Broadway line as they suspect, they may extend it. It could also be that they are planning on running it to 57/7 on weekends when there is no GO in effect, so that it is an unexpected pleasure when everything's fine rather than an unexpected inconvenience when it isn't.
Rest assured, come early August, the TA will likely put off major work in the Tunnel and the south side of the bridge until 2004. There is no way you can go from a weekend service into Manhattan to a Brooklyn service, even with a across the platform transfer.
Ridership levels back this up.
The Rutgers connection? Is it on the drawing board?
Haven't heard of it much recently, but I'm pretty sure that if we get the report in eight months or so that the repairs will go past 2004 then they may build it. I'd call the Rutgers connection about as long as it took the 63rd St connection to Queens Blvd.
Amazing how entire subways were built 70 years ago that today would take the same amount of time just to put forth the idea. For shame.
If the Rutgers connection is not built in the next five years it never will be, regardless of the consequences. The area where it would be built is slated for high income, high density redevelopment. With NY's political and legal process, the new occupants of that area will be able to stall and eventually kill such a connection for years and years, while drastically escalating its cost.
The problems of 1990 were caused by full 4 track service. The shoring up done since will prevent any problems for trains using the H tracks.
The big day will come in 2004 when all 4 tracks are reopened.
Today I believe was the first day of 4 car test trains running the bridge, R-68s #2812 and #2880 were running across all day on their own power, no locomotives in sight.
And according to the 1990 map, south side service was restored due to temporary cessation of work by the DOT. They knew it would close again.
I guess sometimes the papers can get it wrong. While the re-closure of the south side tracks may have been planned, as I remember the press coverage at the time, the papers reported that it was previously unknown bridge defects that brought about the second, and, up till this point, continuing closure.
Is it possible that "surprises" with the bridge brought about the closure sooner than was expected?
Thanks again for the info on tests.
Since there were two editions of the September 30, 1990 map showing conflicting information (one says service restored temporarily, other says south side closing again real soon) I believe they were forced to close it again much sooner than anticipated.
As I remember it, the closure was an emergency due to a girder that slipped under the tracks. But I think it was also planned to be closed at some point later.
True. More work still hads to be done, beginning about a year later, but the defect forced it to close again right then.
My map from that date says it was due to a temporary stoppage in the work being done by the DOT.
Cause LIRR timetables have Arrive Leave things 2
I could be wrong, but I would say that changes of engineers are rare and, while their may be some changes of individual ticket-collectors (whatever their title). The arrive-leave times in the public timetables exist because it is important information: whether your first train is going to arrive in time for you to jump to your second train. I think I have never seen (on the LIRR) an engineer replaced on route. Some eastbound trains on the Babylon service in the evening rush hour will drop a ticket-collector, who then awaits a westbound. Either it's a collector going home, or perhaps he is reporting to Penn Station for a later eastbound. The fact that all tickets are lifted leaving Jamaica (no matter the zone) means that the collectors have a bit less work. They supervise station stops ("passing the wave") and collect tickets from new passengers.
I don't know about the most recent TTs, but a bare handful of east end trains had a crew change in Speonk.
Of course, collectors are all over the place. Conside collector #757 out of Port Washington. Starting with Train 427 from Port Wash:
427 west to Little Neck
311 west to Penn
1618 east to Hicksville
1637 west to Penn
108 east to Jamaica
854 east to Long Beach
857 west to Jamaica
860 east to Long Beach
863 west to Jamaica
1713 west to Penn
454 east to Port Washington
It made me tired just typing it. After that day I think even a railfan would be sick of riding trains.
Last year, Amtrak had three of their last FL9's removed from road service to be assigned to work train duty out of NH in favor of the P42's. Now that the DE & DM30's need fixing, I wondered if would it have been a good idea if the LIRR picked up those last FL9s. I can't help but speculate. Meanwhile, spotted DE30 422 at the Riverhead station in charge of two bilevels waiting to depart for Ronkonkoma.
The LIRR had a few of FL-9 locomotives, and they did run them out of Penn Station a few years ago, but when the new locomotives came in, the FL-9's disappeared. I take it that they are needed again? Would be nice to see some "covered wagons" in regular service again in the metropolitan area, right?
It's always a joy to see the FL9's in the original MN livery in LIRR service, but these days, I don't see much of them. Two of them are currently assigned to the Port Jeff line; don't know if they still pull the early morning rush hour through trains.
They went back to Metro North 2 years ago. The ran only with C-1 bi-levels, which are retired.
How far have they been put out to pasture?
Why is it some things are retired too early, yet the new stuff takes longer and longer to make the cut? I know the FL/9 - C1 combo was a prototype, but it may just be needed for a few more miles.
avid
Those FL9's had an MDBF of either 2000 or 5000 miles and kept catching fire. You cannot entrust a LIRR with a complicated toy, especially one they invented (the DE/DM).
LIRR had three FL-9's (300,301,302). All are at the Croton-harmon shop deadline. They were being used for parts to keep other FL-9s running. Metro-North could not use them for anything else(incompatible couplers and in-cab signaling). Metro-North FL-9s (ConDOT FL-9M in NEw Haven livery and FL-9AC will most likely be retired by Labor Day. After that they will runn on the shuttle trains (i.e. Wassaic, Danbury, and Waterbury) until they have a failure of a major component.
$18 million down the toilet (those 3 FL9's). That's what they paid Republic Locomotive works for them.
That makes sense. I heard that MN was taking back those FL9's, but I didn't believe it. I still wish the LIRR had picked up those last ones from Amtrak. With another rebuild, they could last for a few years, but I realize that they still had problems after MN had them rebuilt numerous times. So, until the DE and the DM30s are fixed, through trains to Penn will still be a pipe dream for those of us that live in diesel territory.
It'll be a pipe dream until they electrify. The DM will never work right on that railroad.
That may be a possibility. I wish the LIRR had done the right thing in the first place and had GE built a low profile version of the P42s to fit in the tunnels. I don't know how reliable they are, but I do know that GEs have reliable electrical equipment.
The P42's fit in the tunnels now as the are, dual-mode or straight.
How about bringing the Power Packs back too ?????
or a GP-38s in NY & Atl green ?
I here the turbos are available now that Amtrak won't upgrade the track to Albany.
Mr t__:^)
Indefinitely postponed doesn't mean "won't", and no, the Turbos are not available. They are still to be rebuilt.
The turbo suggestion was a joke ... the LIRR would need a year to learn how to maintain them :-(
I had heard that Amtrak was loaning them some F-40/P-42s.
Mr t__:^)
I heard that the Turbos were being rebuilt, but I haven't seen them in road service yet.
All day today, #2880 and family, as well as #2812 and family were running over the south side of the Bridge under their own power. No protection trains. They turned somewhere along the Broadway line above 34st and the 4th ave line (I guess 9th ave?). My first sighting was at 10:40 AM while I was walking across the newly reopened walkway with a friend.
The Annunciators at Canal st. are working, they show "Manhattan & Queens" and "Brooklyn". Lots of sparks coming from the third rail, it hasn't been used all that much in the last decade (this frightened a few children at Canal st. station).
The span of the bridge has lots of flagging and track workers.
Was this testing to familiarize T/Os or to see if the signals & other track stuff worked?
Really? You can walk across the Manhattan Bridge, on the walkway?
I bet that this will not last, as some nutjob will try to go on to the tracks and play chicken with a train, only to get electrocuted and then have his so-called family try to sue the city for not preventing him from doing so in the first place.
They have high fences (no barbed wire). There are signs all over warning against electric shock (in English only, and the colors are already fading).
This will last, the DOT spent an assload of money rebuilding the walkway under a lot of pressure from the Transportation Alternatives group. The first day (today) it even had a lot of use. The Brooklyn Bridge walkway now can finally have some crowding relief.
Is the walkway open all the way to Brooklyn?
John
Yessir. My friend and I were photographed by a Brooklyn newspaper guy. I entered at Canal and Bowery and exited at Jay near Tillary (practically a block from the Brooklyn Bridge exit!). There is no stairs anywhere except on the Brooklyn end.
Are bridge walkways subject to ADA requirements?
Apparently not, though Queensboro Bridge has no stairs while the Brooklyn has stairs only for the "shortcut" exits. The Triboro has stairs all over the place, but it's old.
I didn't know the Triboro had a pedestrian path.
It's got two, very narrow ones with lots of stairs. They are at a higher elevation than the roadway.
zman posted that the familiarization of the broadway lines had begun and would run non-stop except for a 12-hour break July 7th.
Has it been that long? It's not like these tracks are completely new. Why do you need to familiarize people with tracks which have existed for 86 years?
Why do you need to familiarize people with tracks which have existed for 86 years?
It's because there exist a large number of train crews who joined the system within the past thirteen years, train crews who have never even ridden over the south side of the bridge, train crews who need to know what the south side of the bridge is like if they're going to be operating trains over it.
Dan
Allright. So if a t/o with 20 years of experience is assigned to a line he has never operated on) say he worked in the B division exclusively and was x-ferred to an IRT line), would he/she have to also undergo this "familiarization"?
Yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
First off, he wouldn't just be "transferred" over, he would have to pick a job in the other division. Once you do this, you are put into School Car and trained (or retrained if you had once been there, but not in the last five years) on both the equipment and the lines. Currently, I'm about a quarter done with my A to B transfer training and will be released to the road the day the pick starts (July 22). There are 6 groups transferring - 4 with time and 2 from off the streets - so watch for those empty trains making station stops with TOs acting like CRs.
Becouse I never went over them. T/O that started with in the last ten years never went over the broadway side of the brige, and some older T/O might not remember the line ups to get into this side.
Robert
Well actualy the TRACKS are brand new. They have all been replaced on the bridge >G
Are you sure that they were running all day, because I also was on the walkway riding my bike at about 3:30PM, I'd say about 10-15 minutes accross, and didn't see any trains on the South Side, yet saw a couple of R68's (B/D) on the northside.
And I didn't see any trackworkers....
I crossed the bridge at 8:45 AM and their were workers, but no trains that i could see. There were plenty of workers working on the switches which merge the north and south side tracks north of Dekalb.
Zman said they'd run 24-7. However, when I left at around 2:30 I heard over the scanner "Finish that move to Pacific and then"-static. Since nobody had called the two test trains the whole time, they may have been taken out.
The trains were also running at wide intervals. While walking across, it was about 30 minutes between trains in either direction, and I also observed that trains did not cross until both sets were on the same side of the river. As for the lack of track workers, they may have left aboard the test train, crossed the road and used a revenue train, or you may have been riding too fast to notice (they stuck to the road side). Did you at least see the flags (yellow & green)?
I believe that there is only two test trains in operation at one time. The T/O's reporting for familiarization have been given a time to report, and the train is scheduled to leave Pacific 5 minutes later.
Besides, the test train blocks the mainline when turning at Pacific Street, so it wouldn't be a good idea to have a whole slew of them operating.
I walked across the MB on Monday at mid-day. Several trains passed me. (Could have been the same equipment shuttling back and forth.) I had a nice chat with a flagman, who told me that the bicycle lane on the walkway is temporary and will be eliminated when the Northside walkway is re-opened for bicycle use. Many track/signal workers standing around. I was also told that the signals on the bridge have been wired with fiber optics instead of copper.
I only knew about the ultimate "service" plan for the walkways from Transportation Alternatives web site, I'm surprised a flagman bothered to find out about it (unless the DOT briefed all the construction workers). Pedestrians on the south side, bikes on the north. Hopefully the DOT will put appropriate signage up at the walkways indicating who goes where...
I saw a 4-car train of 68's on F4 track at DeKalb yesterday. The front end sign was not there (you could see the flourescent light). The side signs were in all sorts of crazy positions (including (W)) The Q train I got on after this train had left DeKalb stopped at Myrtle Avenue, where I saw the train move onto the H2 track. Once the Q was on the bridge, I was able to see this 4-car train on the south side. It was kinda cool to see at least 3 tracks in use on the Manhattan Bridge.
On the way home tonight when I got off at Pelham Bay Park I saw on Track 3 one of the hybrid R142/142A. That is - half of it is R142 cars the other half is R142A cars.
The consist was: 6340-6335,7211-7215.
The last time I saw it was on the #2 and it had gone out of service at E180. I wonder if it will do better on the Pelham line.
Do they put in the right strip maps in to the sets so the station are right.
Robert
its 6336-6340 bombardier and 7211-7215 kawasaki. it will be a fact that the two conjoined sets will work better on thre 6 line for the crew is better trained at the R-142 fleet. however weird performance will still linger. when i mean weird, the train will make wierd moves because of their performance differences, with kawasaki's bucking start off and heavy feeling, and bombardiers smooth startoffs,with kawasaki's swaying and jouncy ride and jerky stopping motions,and with bombardier's stable ride and smooth stopping, it has a weird feeling.
The reason such diverging characteristics exsist between the two fleets goes back to something I've noticed since the Mosholu Yard lead crash during the Subway Series. What is it? That Bombardier makes their stuff more solidly than Kawasaki. On the R-62A as well as the R-142. More stable ride, smoother braking, and better insulation is the key on Bomardier's fleets (an arguement can be made on the R-62A).
Kawasaki, however, seemed to have haphazardly built their share of the R-142 order, probably due to that mess going on at their Yonkers plant. And I don't trust the R-62s fit and finish either.
I was too tired to stop and look (hey what do expected at 5:43 PM after a hard days work).
I know what you meen about a hard days work. I just feel like falling asleep when I get home, but I have to watch my baby girl.
Robert
Someone up there heard me.
Here's how it's better: You get the basics on the GO when you click on the route letter, have the option to download the long winded explanation in PDF format.
Here's how it's not: Every route is on a different page. Small price to pay for conciseness!
Congrats!
what is the URL? I went to the NYCT service advisory page and got the old format. I even did a forced reload from their server and still got thwe old version.(Shift Reload with Netscape.)
They changed the main page back (bastards), but here is a backdoor way to get to it:
New format.
Thanks. I have it bookmarked.
A while ago we were talking about the "Banker's Specials" AKA Brighton and 4th Avenue Specials. Someone remarked they never saw it on a map or service guide. Well, thanks to Jim Poulos and his bmt-lines.com, you can view the services mentioned in the BMT's 1937 Service Guide.
Thanks, Jim.
A while ago we were talking about the "Banker's Specials" AKA Brighton and 4th Avenue Specials. Someone remarked they never saw it on a map or service guide. Well, thanks to Jim Poulos and his bmt-lines.com, you can view the services mentioned in the BMT's 1937 Service Guide.
Thanks, Jim.
And thank you, Paul.
I work on the "N" on Sunday and saw that the hole front of the station is gone. Also the stores on the Mermaid side are also gone, and the store in the middle are missing there roofs. When did this all happen. I know that they took down the roof of the walkway off a few ago.
Robert
The front, at least part of it is going to be saved ... BMT Lines will live forever !
Mr t__:^)
Did anyone else see the Daily News editorial on Amtrak this weekend. Basially, the News said Amtrak should be shut down in restructured, because areas where rail is economically infeasible but politically neccessary are draining the system. It called for privitization or regional agencies taking over profitable routes (ie. the Northeast Corridor).
I agree. What do you think?
"I agree. What do you think?"
The Empire Builder runs full every day.
Must be other uses for long distance trains.
But why *should* a train *make* money.
It doesn't do so in any other country in the world?
Transportation is a multi-faceted issue.
Or sould Interstate Highways also be sulf- supporting.
How about airports, maybe we should have private control towers,
charging whatever it takes to run the tower, *AND* make a profit.
I think that passenger trains *should* be subsidised,
and I also believe that automobiles should be greatly taxed
for the environmental harm they cause.
Elias
Bravo for you, Elias!
I agree 100%. I think we need to get past the mindset of passenger rail as a business, and start thinking about it as the crucial piece of infrastructure that it is.
Shutting down passenger rail service because it doesn't make a profit makes about as much sense as shutting down the subways, interstate highways or sewers because they don't make a profit.
Maybe if some people in this country would pull their heads out of their asses once in a while, they'd realize that some things are more important than just a bottom line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Maybe if some people in this country would pull their heads out of their asses once in a while, they'd realize that some things are more important than just a bottom line.
"Bottom" line, heh heh!
The Ferenghi would disapprove. There is no honor without profit. :)
But adding subway lines is probably listed somewhere in the Grand Nagus' Rules of Acquisition.
(Maybe if some people in this country would pull their heads out of their asses once in a while, they'd realize that some things are more important than just a bottom line.)
Things that benefit the suburbs and the sunbelt may be more important than the bottom line, but not things that benefit NY. The inevitable result of the continued drain off of resources is the destruction of rail routes in high density corridors where it IS profitable. NY is getting jobbed on this, as many other, issues.
Well, let's consider some facets of this:
1) Yes, Amtrak is subject to political masters who want their pet trains run. Difficult to overcome. But as long as they can get the bucks to give Amtrak, why not? Greyhound gets paid to run buses with low ridership; why not Amtrak? Maybe it should be restructured such that Amtrak charges the affected state a fee to run a particular train.
2) Privatization could result in both good and bad; witness NYCDOT's privately operated bus lines. Does Command Bus or NY Bus do a better job than MTA? Hardly. Why did they bother privatizing the route? To give Hizzoner's buddies money in their pockets.
3) The Northeast Corridor Service could run well with a regional agency, but I think the effect would be a wash. The regional agency would have pluses balanced out by minuses. Pluses would be freedom from money losing routes elsewhere. BUT: Big problem: Politicians from other states would have no incentive to not vote for big cuts in spending on NEC service. It would be a zero-sum game: My pet train in Utah (or wherever) vs. the Acela. At least this way Amtrak management can try to raise the quality of service across the board.
4) The Daily News slants to the right. Before we agree with them, let's see what the NY Times has to say (some believe the Times slants to the left). Compare the positions...
On the hole, I'm not ready to give up on Amtrak yet, so no, I don't agree with our conclusion.
Maybe it should be restructured such that Amtrak charges the affected state a fee to run a particular train.
This is already being done. Pennsylvania's Keystone Service, Oklahoma's Heartland Flier, to name just two, and numerous other routes are already subject to the availability of state subsidy. If Amtrak were broken up, such that Pennsylvania no longer pays Amtrak to run Keystone trains but does it itself, how is this any different? What problems does it solve? Now you have a state or local government bureaucracy replacing a federal one. (Same with Shrub's tax-cut: just watch your state and/or city raise taxes to make up for lost federal money and programs...but I digress...) I agree with Elias and David Cole. If we're going to look at passenger rail as "a business," allow it to benefit from an equitable subsidy compared to aviation and highways, which it currently does not. And consider this: Are the bureaucracies of the several states and local governments, which would take up the mantle of passenger rail in Amtrak's stead, better than Amtrak's one bureaucracy? Why proliferate the problem?
I agree with you completely.
Maybe it should be restructured such that Amtrak charges the affected state a fee to run a particular train.
This is already being done. Pennsylvania's Keystone Service, Oklahoma's Heartland Flier, to name just two, and numerous other routes are already subject to the availability of state subsidy. If Amtrak were broken up, such that Pennsylvania no longer pays Amtrak to run Keystone trains but does it itself, how is this any different? What problems does it solve? Now you have a state or local government bureaucracy replacing a federal one. (Same with Shrub's tax-cut: just watch your state and/or city raise taxes to make up for lost federal money and programs...but I digress...) I agree with Elias and David Cole. If we're going to look at passenger rail as "a business," allow it to benefit from an equitable subsidy compared to aviation and highways, which it currently does not. And consider this: Are the bureaucracies of the several states and local governments, which would take up the mantle of passenger rail in Amtrak's stead, better than Amtrak's one bureaucracy? Why proliferate the problem?
It's very hard to say whether we're better off with one or many bureaucracies. This is a question which applies in many contexts, not just Amtrak. A single bureaucracy does have some advantages as far as economies of scale and access to resources are concerned. There also might be less vulnerability to bad influences. On the other hand, state or local control tends to give the citizens a greater degree of input, which of course is the whole essence of democracy.
My guess is that if control of passenger rail were devolved to the states, we'd see a general cutback in service. It's one thing to bury rail subsidies in the enormous federal budget. It's another thing entirely for a governor to say - as Connecticut Governor John Rowland said with respect to Shore Line East - that each passenger trip costs the state's taxpayers twenty dollars in subsidies. Somehow it seems to hurt more when things are put in such microeconomic terms. But - and here is where I probably differ with most Subtalkers - if the voters in a state don't believe that rail subsidies are a worthy cause, then their will should prevail. Democracy is not always going to be compatible with special interests such as those of rail fans.
On the other hand, state or local control tends to give the citizens a greater degree of input, which of course is the whole essence of democracy.
Ah, the Republican battle-cry of "local control." While local control may in fact be more (small-d) "democratic," it can also result in the trampling of civil rights and institutionalized discrimination. Look at the "local control" which resulted in Jim Crow, to name one hideous example. This mantra is most often repeated in reference to education and schools. In fact, suggesting a national education system is instant death for any campaign, Republican or Democratic. I say, why the hell not? Are North and South Carolina, Mississippi, and Alabama proud of the fact that they appear at the bottom of the state rankings in SAT scores? What is this aversion to the so called "intellectual elite?" It's almost like expanding one's knowledge is okay, unless it interferes with the need to be "faithful" or "religious." Here in the northeast, the land of "The Intelligensia," we have a healthy respect for knowledge and faith. I don't understand why there is such a disdain for uniform national policies. I'm sorry, "Because I don't want the government telling me what to do" is a knee-jerk reactionary attitude. If the federal government can tell me that its going to send a bunch of my tax dollars to Mississippi to help fund Trent Lott's pet ship-building project, it can also tell those Mississippians that some of their dough is helping transport a few thousand of us home to our families for Thanksgiving this year on four or five daily Keystone trains.
Somehow it seems to hurt more when things are put in such microeconomic terms. But - and here is where I probably differ with most Subtalkers - if the voters in a state don't believe that rail subsidies are a worthy cause, then their will should prevail. Democracy is not always going to be compatible with special interests such as those of rail fans.
With this statement, you re-enforce my and Ron's point. An example will illustrate: It would probably enhance effieciency and save taxpayer money for all of the rail transit systems in the New York metropolitan region, MTA, PATH, and NJT, to be under one management. This, of course, will never happen, because no one in New Jersey wants their money to pay for transit in New York and vice versa. Look at the squabbling that goes on between the governors of New Jersey and New York when it comes to the Port Authority. This attitude exists intra-state too. Because the MTA depends largely on state funding, it's a state agency. Nobody in Rochester, Syracuse, Albany or Buffalo wants to fund New York City's subways! All of these disparate local interests (yes, a local interest is a special interest too) squabbling may be the "essence of democracy," but it's horribly inefficient when applied to issues which concurrently affect those beyond the locality. Without taking this need for "solving problems" to extremes (read: totalitarian governmental control of everything), a balance must be struck between indulging the interests of the few and investing (yeah, I'm a Democrat, I'll use the word -- you can say "subsidy" if you want) in the common interests of the whole country. I put it to you that two such issues, which should require national attention and investment, are educations and transportation.
I put it to you that two such issues, which should require national attention and investment, are educations and transportation.
Before anyone pounces on the obvious irony, "educations and transportation" is a typo. It should read, "education and transportation." :O)
A very nice post.
We in NYC have subways financed in part by taxes from rural upstate counties. Rural upstate counties can afford a certain number of state troopers when they are supported in part by taxes paid by NYC residents and businesses.
People upstate might think subways are a waste of money, and want the right to veto spending "their" tax dollars on trains.
So it would be fair if NYC people had the same right, wouldn't it? Need a state trooper? The phone line to the barracks would advise you to place your reservation at least two hours ahead. What's wrong with that?
Ah, the Republican battle-cry of "local control." While local control may in fact be more (small-d) "democratic," it can also result in the trampling of civil rights and institutionalized discrimination. Look at the "local control" which resulted in Jim Crow, to name one hideous example. This mantra is most often repeated in reference to education and schools. In fact, suggesting a national education system is instant death for any campaign, Republican or Democratic. I say, why the hell not? Are North and South Carolina, Mississippi, and Alabama proud of the fact that they appear at the bottom of the state rankings in SAT scores?
Local control does have its dangers. It more or less presupposes a fairly enlightened, politically involved populace - which isn't always the case. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Oh, as far as SAT scores are concerned, New Yorkers should be quiet. Stones and glass houses, after all.
What is this aversion to the so called "intellectual elite?" It's almost like expanding one's knowledge is okay, unless it interferes with the need to be "faithful" or "religious." Here in the northeast, the land of "The Intelligensia," we have a healthy respect for knowledge and faith. I don't understand why there is such a disdain for uniform national policies. I'm sorry, "Because I don't want the government telling me what to do" is a knee-jerk reactionary attitude. If the federal government can tell me that its going to send a bunch of my tax dollars to Mississippi to help fund Trent Lott's pet ship-building project, it can also tell those Mississippians that some of their dough is helping transport a few thousand of us home to our families for Thanksgiving this year on four or five daily Keystone trains.
I'll be the first to admit that there is some antipathy toward the "intellectual elite" in some parts of the country. The Sunbelt, in particular. But the fact also remains that these "anti-intellectual" areas are by and large very successful economically. Sure, the Northeast has more respect for learning, but that has not helped it in economic terms.
Would you rather be (1) a high school graduate making $25/hour at a Sunbelt auto plant or (2) an Ivy League Ph.D. waiting tables in Manhattan?
An example will illustrate: It would probably enhance effieciency and save taxpayer money for all of the rail transit systems in the New York metropolitan region, MTA, PATH, and NJT, to be under one management. This, of course, will never happen, because no one in
New Jersey wants their money to pay for transit in New York and vice versa. Look at the squabbling that goes on between the governors of New Jersey and New York when it comes to the Port Authority.
I don't see that situation as a local control issue as much as an illustration of New York-area parochialism. People in the Sunbelt tend to think regionally, which is a big reason why the area's such a success. People in the New York area, whether from New York or New Jersey, can't think that way. Whether it's due to stubbornness, jealousy or sheer stupidity, I just don't know.
[Would you rather be (1) a high school graduate making $25/hour at a Sunbelt auto plant or (2) an Ivy League Ph.D. waiting tables in Manhattan? ]
Well, table waiting PhD must have some issues beyond anyones help.
Arti
Well, table waiting PhD must have some issues beyond anyones help.
Depends on the field of expertise. If you really want to remain in the field where your degree is, then waiting tables may be your best option in the interim, as it leaves you free to pursue interviews and further research in your area of specialty during at least part of the daytime hours. If you're willing to say "forget it" to your specialty and simply use your superior intellectual skills in another field, you can usually find a job rather quickly. I have six folks on my staff with PhD's in entirely unrelated fields; they make excellent analysts even though the closest they've ever come to programming a computer is punching a few cards with a simple Cobol program. Two others have left after relatively short stints so that they could take low-paying jobs with more flexible hours, allowing them the time to interview for jobs in their arcane specialties.
Oh, and I speak from personal experience in this area :-) I work as a project manager for a very large corporation, but I have advanced degrees in history and library science. Feeding my family took priority over completing my PhD and living in the archives, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(People in the Sunbelt tend to think regionally, which is a big reason why the area's such a success. People in the New York area, whether from New York or New Jersey, can't think that way. Whether it's due to stubbornness, jealousy or sheer stupidity, I just don't know.)
Pete, that's just absurd. New York City's "elites" have thought regionally for along time. They built the transportation connections that allowed the affluent and middle class to escape the burdens of the City while enjoying its benefits. They agreed to pay taxes to develop what was then the "poor" south and west in the 1930s, and even more in the 1960s. At the time, New York was much richer than average.
And what is the reward? New York State now has a higher poverty rate that just about the entire Sunbelt, including Alabama. Yet the federal government covers 50 percent of New York's Medicaid expenditures, compared with 70 percent in Alabama. Prosperity was "evened out," then went beyond "evened out," yet New York State in general and New York City in particular is still being drained, because the "evening out" policies and attitudes never changed.
Now some New Yorkers are looking at their high taxes and high services and saying enough is enough. Especially with Rudy clamping down on the B.S. here in the City, it time to point a few fingers elsewhere. We can't afford to have our resources transferred to New Jersey and North Carolina anymore. But I guess dependency is addicting, because those with a very good deal don't want to give it up. So anyone who say's "enough is enough" is said to be confrontational and narrow-minded.
It's easy to be "broadminded" when other places are where you money is coming FROM, rather than going TO.
New York's lack of regional thinking shows up most prominently in the city vs. suburbs battles that so drain resources and cause inefficiency. When the city offers millions of dollars in tax breaks and other giveaways to a greedy corporation that's threatened to move a couple of miles to Jersey City, that's parochialism. When New York and New Jersey seem to be on separate planets as far as transit planning is concerned, that's parochialism. You won't see nonsense like that in the Sunbelt.
City vs. non-city is not limited to New York. Philly and Pittsburgh battle the rest of Pennsylvania; Louisville battles the rest of KY. These are two examples where I have seen the phenomenon first hand. I suspect it's quite common.
I don't see that situation as a local control issue as much as an illustration of New York-area parochialism. People in the Sunbelt tend to think regionally, which is a big reason why the area's such a success.
No, it isn't. Air conditioning is a big reason for the area's success.
Most cities are many miles away from the state line. The only cities that straddle borders are those that developed as ports on big rivers. When the railroad displaced the boat as the primary means of transportation, any place could be a hub. That is even more true in the era of the automobile.
An example will illustrate: It would probably enhance effieciency and save taxpayer money for all of the rail transit systems in the New York metropolitan region, MTA, PATH, and NJT, to be under one management. This, of course, will never happen, because no one in New Jersey wants their money to pay for transit in New York and vice versa. Look at the squabbling that goes on between the governors of New Jersey and New York when it comes to the Port Authority.
I don't see that situation as a local control issue as much as an illustration of New York-area parochialism. People in the Sunbelt tend to think regionally, which is a big reason why the area's such a success. People in the New York area, whether from New York or New Jersey, can't think that way. Whether it's due to stubbornness, jealousy or sheer stupidity, I just don't know.
First, seriously, I appreciate your thoughts in your enitre response.
Second, I think you may be right about "New York parochialism," but there is evidence of this in other parts of the Northeast. I'll use Central Pennsylvania as an example. (I know, I'm like a broken record, but I grew up there and I find it interesting to draw comparisons between where I grew up and other places I have lived...)
Just after college, I did an internship in Columbus, Ohio. Columbus, like Harrisburg, is a state capital. The two cities and surrounding regions have very different attitudes about "local control."
In many ways, Columbus is like the cities in the sunbelt you mention when it comes to regional cooperation. Through its history, from a small "cow-town" to its metropolitan present, it has been able to annex surrounding areas with relative ease to become the largest single city in Ohio (Cleveland and Cincinnatti are only bigger if you count their suburbs, which are not technically part of the city entity). Even Columbus suburbanites tend to view themselves as "from Columbus," and have a regional outlook when it comes to everything from politics to sports.
Harrisburg and south Central PA have a very different outlook. I grew up on the West Shore of the Susquehanna in a little borough about 3 miles square. I graduated with 99 other people from a public high school. If anyone had told my town that it would be annexed by Harrisburg at any time in its 100+ year history, including now, the citizens would probably riot. The laws in Pennsylvania are very much different when it comes to municipal autonomy. It is very difficult to merge localities together. There may be some constitutional constraints, but I'm not sure. There is not much interest in doing so anyway.
If you ever look at a map of Pennsylvania, you will notice that the state is almost blackened by small town after small town after small town. Compare it to Ohio, which has a lot of white, vacant areas.
The other hamlets surrounding my hometown have been having a hell of a time trying to merge police and emergency services among them, even though it will ultimately save them money in taxes. (I suppose the one thing that trumps lower taxes among these particular Pennsylvania Republicans is threats to local sovereignty.)
My white-bread hometown, of course, was not even approached for these mergers. Why? Let me put it this way. In the 1950s, when all the small school districts in the country began to merge into these 800 student-per-class mega districts, my hometown told them to go fly a kite, which is part of the reason why my public school education was so good. I had a low student-teacher ratio and a town full of parents who really involved themselves in the schools. It is also the reason why home prices in the town are always so high. When my parents sell their house, they will make a killing. Main reason: great schools.
Looking back, however, my hometown's attitude in this regard did absolutely nothing for the Harrisburg area as a whole. You won't find anyone there who thinks this is a bad thing. "Let Harrisburg take care of Harrisburg," they would say. Meanwhile, Harriburg's public shools are a shambles, much like New York's, but on a smaller scale. People on the West Shore rarely venture across the Susquehanna. Why should they? Everything they need is on the West Shore. It's no wonder there is no sense of regional identity when isolation and sovereignty are held in such high regard by so many small municipalities.
>>> Columbus is like the cities in the sunbelt you mention when it comes to regional cooperation. Through its history, from a small "cow-town" to its metropolitan present, it has been able to annex surrounding areas with relative ease <<<
I think you are missing one thing. Columbus, Ohio and those Sunbelt cities are growing by annexing unincorporated areas. This is always easier than getting an incorporated area to give up its sovereignty to join a bigger entity. (Brooklyn is the big exception to that rule). Once a city is ringed by incorporated suburbs it ceases to expand.
The Sunbelt cities prosper because of the relatively cheap land, new state of the art manufacturing facilities, and the lack of organized labor, all of which keep down costs. It is not some difference in the thinking of the people in those cities from those in the Northeast, except to the extent that there is a "frontier mentality". It is just that the Northeast is so much older and already developed than the Sunbelt.
On the other hand, Los Angeles, which is certainly in a sunny clime, is more like the Eastern cities. There are more than 75 cites in Los Angeles County, some like Beverly Hills are completely surrounded by the City of Los Angeles, but none of them are rushing to join Los Angeles, and a large part of Los Angeles is seeking to secede from the city. The city can extend its boundaries into the desert easily, but that is all. The largest unincorporated area that would be natural for the city to annex is East Los Angeles, within sight of City Hall, but it is not considered desirable because of the large low income immigrant population there who would require far more services than they would provide taxes.
Tom
Of course the northeast's age and state of development are inherent in its cities confinement. And I did not mean to imply that cities here should attempt to annex their neighbors -- this would not be at all possible. I merely attempt to point out how this situation contributes to difficulty in regional planning -- too many chefs in the kitchen, as it were. The newer Sun Belt cities have it easier in this regard, since their growth has been fast and into unincorporated, formerly rural areas, where no entrenched sense of sovereignty exists. There, growth is so fast that local myopia doesn't get a chance to take hold and hinder regional planning.
>>> Columbus is like the cities in the sunbelt you mention when it comes to regional cooperation. Through its history, from a small "cow-town" to its metropolitan present, it has been able to annex surrounding areas with relative ease <<<
I think you are missing one thing. Columbus, Ohio and those Sunbelt cities are growing by annexing unincorporated areas. This is always easier than getting an incorporated area to give up its sovereignty to join a bigger entity. (Brooklyn is the big exception to that rule). Once a city is ringed by incorporated suburbs it ceases to expand.
The Sunbelt cities prosper because of the relatively cheap land, new state of the art manufacturing facilities, and the lack of organized labor, all of which keep down costs. It is not some difference in the thinking of the people in those cities from those in the Northeast, except to the extent that there is a "frontier mentality". It is just that the Northeast is so much older and already developed than the Sunbelt.
On the other hand, Los Angeles, which is certainly in a sunny clime, is more like the Eastern cities. There are more than 75 cites in Los Angeles County, some like Beverly Hills are completely surrounded by the City of Los Angeles, but none of them are rushing to join Los Angeles, and a large part of Los Angeles is seeking to secede from the city. The city can extend its boundaries into the desert easily, but that is all. The largest unincorporated area that would be natural for the city to annex is East Los Angeles, within sight of City Hall, but it is not considered desirable because of the large low income immigrant population there who would require far more services than they would provide taxes.
Tom
I think you may be right about "New York parochialism," but there is evidence of this in other parts of the Northeast. I'll use Central Pennsylvania as an example. (I know, I'm like a broken record, but I grew up there and I find it interesting to draw comparisons between where I grew up and other places I have lived...)
Just after college, I did an internship in Columbus, Ohio. Columbus, like Harrisburg, is a state capital. The two cities and surrounding regions have very different attitudes about "local control."
In many ways, Columbus is like the cities in the sunbelt you mention when it comes to regional cooperation. Through its history, from a small "cow-town" to its metropolitan present, it has been able to annex surrounding areas with relative ease to become the largest single city in Ohio (Cleveland and Cincinnatti are only bigger if you count their suburbs, which are not technically part of the city entity). Even Columbus suburbanites tend to view themselves as "from Columbus," and have a regional outlook when it comes to everything from politics to sports.
Harrisburg and south Central PA have a very different outlook. I grew up on the West Shore of the Susquehanna in a little borough about 3 miles square. I graduated with 99 other people from a public high school. If anyone had told my town that it would be annexed by Harrisburg at any time in its 100+ year history, including now, the citizens would probably riot.
Annexations are just about impossible in New York these days no matter what state law says. I'm not even sure they'd be a good idea. But that does not mean that we have to throw up our hands in despair. People in the metropolitan area CAN think regionally even if political entities remain separate. As you noted, that sort of outlook occurs in Columbus even in un-annexed areas (and Columbus, from what I've heard, is a prosperous city that in some respects is like a northern outpost of the Sunbelt). If New Yorkers are to start thinking regionally, the already extant MTA system is a great place to begin.
I did/do like Columbus, after living there for that year. The city has one thing going for it that Harrisburg lacks: a major university (Ohio State; Penn State's main campus is in State College, PA, which is an hour and a half northwest of the capital). This contributes to its cosmopolitan nature. BTW, to get back on topic, COTA (Central Ohio Transit Authority) has been trying to float commuter rail, but possible Amtrak service betw. Cleveland and Cincinnati via Columbus was recently shelved, according to my mother in-law (I met my wife in Columbus).
I did/do like Columbus, after living there for that year. The city has one thing going for it that Harrisburg lacks: a major university (Ohio State; Penn State's main campus is in State College, PA, which is an hour and a half northwest of the capital). This contributes to its cosmopolitan nature. BTW, to get back on topic, COTA (Central Ohio Transit Authority) has been trying to float commuter rail, but possible Amtrak service betw. Cleveland and Cincinnati via Columbus was recently shelved, according to my mother in-law (I met my wife in Columbus).
I've never been to Columbus, but from what I've heard (it's discussed a lot on misc.transport.road) it seems to be a rather auto-oriented metro area, similar in that respect to most Sunbelt cities. The metro area's also grown quite a bit, and it would not surprise me to find that much of the residential and employment growth has followed a decentralized (read auto-oriented) pattern. The result, needless to say, is that Columbus may not be particuarly fertile soil for commuter rail.
"...possible Amtrak service betw. Cleveland and Cincinnati via Columbus was recently shelved, according to my mother in-law (I met my wife in Columbus)."
Whoa! I don't think the 3C plan is even remotely close to dead.
http://www.oarprail.org/3C%20Plans%20and%20Possibiliities.htm
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Current%20Programs.htm
If 3C were scrapped, or if the Ohio Rail Development Commission even seriously discussed in public scrapping it, OARP (that's Railroad Passengers, not Retired Persons) would be screaming their damned lungs out, and they aren't. www.oarprail.org/news.htm
Well, that's good news! Needless to say, my mother in-law is not a railfan, and may have been speaking of a single article in the Columbus Dispatch, or a single news report on TV.
You from Ohio?
I think your reasoning on elitism is pretty good. But I've got a problem with the following:
"I'll be the first to admit that there is some antipathy toward the "intellectual elite" in some parts of the country. The Sunbelt, in particular. But the fact also remains that these "anti-intellectual" areas are by and large very successful economically. Sure, the Northeast has more respect for learning, but that has not helped it in economic terms.
Would you rather be (1) a high school graduate making $25/hour at a Sunbelt auto plant or (2) an Ivy League Ph.D. waiting tables in Manhattan?"
You state the exception, not the rule. There are a lot of PhD's doing just fine in the Northeast, and a lot of high school grads not working in the auto plant. In fact, chances are financing for the auto plant came from New York, not Mobile. That keeps more people employed than the auto plant itself does.
I don't begrudge anyone a living. But education has its advantages.
I think your reasoning on elitism is pretty good. But I've got a problem with the following:
"I'll be the first to admit that there is some antipathy toward the "intellectual elite" in some parts of the country. The Sunbelt, in particular. But the fact also remains that these "anti-intellectual" areas are by and large very successful economically. Sure, the Northeast has more respect for learning, but that has not helped it in economic terms.
Would you rather be (1) a high school graduate making $25/hour at a Sunbelt auto plant or (2) an Ivy League Ph.D. waiting tables in Manhattan?"
You state the exception, not the rule. There are a lot of PhD's doing just fine in the Northeast, and a lot of high school grads not working in the auto plant. In fact, chances are financing for the auto plant came from New York, not Mobile. That keeps more people employed than the auto plant itself does.
I don't begrudge anyone a living. But education has its advantages.
Indeed, I was using an extreme, or at least exaggerated, example. My point was that some people in the Northeast and especially New York have what I consider an unhealthy ordering of priorities. Yes, it's fine and desirable to be culturally and intellectually enlightened, to have a degree of urbane sophistication. But a slavish devotion to that lifestyle and attitude at the expense of material well-being is, in my view, a mistake. And it's my impression that many New Yorkers do have such a slavish devotion. They pass up opportunities to make more money in the Sunbelt in order to enjoy New York's lifestyle. If that's what makes you happy, fine, but I suspect that some people eventually come to the realization, when it's too late to change, that their New York lifestyle isn't as much fun as it used to be.
>>> They pass up opportunities to make more money in the Sunbelt in order to enjoy New York's lifestyle. <<<
Once you realize that you have only one life, and no chance to relive lifestyle choices (i.e. twenty years lived in Texas can never be recovered), you begin to appreciate that lifestyle may be more important than just earning more money.
Tom
They pass up opportunities to make more money in the Sunbelt in order to enjoy New York's lifestyle.
Once you realize that you have only one life, and no chance to relive lifestyle choices (i.e. twenty years lived in Texas can never
be recovered), you begin to appreciate that lifestyle may be more important than just earning more money.
It may well be that the desirability of the Sunbelt-prosperity lifestyle becomes greater as one gets older. Consider "John" and "Mary," two people age 35 or so. John went to the Sunbelt after college and has been earning good money ever since. He's got a 3,500-square foot house in the suburbs, nice furnishings, a new Lexus, and so on. Mary, on the other hand, has been a New York resident since college. She's enjoyed plenty of urban culture, but has been struggling economically because there are so few jobs in New York. Yes. maybe John has a few regrets because he isn't as "cultured" or "sophisticated" as a New Yorker might be, but I'll bet you anything that Mary is more unhappy. Her future is much more bleak.
Pete, it all depends on what makes you happy. I can only speak for myself. I'm not employed in the vocation I majored in in undergrad, but it makes me a decent living, and I and my wife (God knows we need the dual income!) live a comfortable lifestyle in New York. If I were to have the same job in Charlotte, I likely would be able to have that house in the suburbs, and either my wife or I would not have to work. But I don't want to live in a sun-belt city like Charlotte. I gew up in the suburbs and went to college an hour and a half north of Charlotte, as a matter of fact. I like New York. Am I happy? With the job, not really. With my life in New York, ususally. But I sure would like to be doing the work of my degree rather than what I'm doing for a living now. I suspect I am not the only one, and that a great many of us who would rather write, act, play music, teach, or research than sit behind a desk in a corporate behive. Fortunately, our educations made it possible for us to adapt our skills to a middle-class "respectable" profession with some material rewards.
There are a lot of people who go to a cultural wasteland like Tampa FL, try to raise a family there, stop and say "Whoa, what the hell am I doing here?" and head back to civilization!
There are a lot of people who go to a cultural wasteland like Tampa FL, try to raise a family there, stop and say "Whoa, what the hell am I doing here?" and head back to civilization!
Makes more room for the over-65 set, who migrate there from places like here in droves.
("I love you, Grandma, but how can you stand this heat?!")
They don't call the Tampa Bay Area "God's waiting room" for nuthin'! :O)
There are a lot of people who go to a cultural wasteland like Tampa FL, try to raise a family there, stop and say "Whoa, what the hell am I doing here?" and head back to civilization!
The same can be said for those of us stuck in the NYC area. Yes, there are a lot of things to like about the City, with the subways and other rail service topping the list. But I can't wait to get back to rural North Carolina, where I know all of my neighbors and can still leave my doors unlocked and the keys in the car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You should be careful when you post something like that. It repeats a lot of NYC stereotypes. Now, someone could hypothetically retort that if some hillbilly with no social skills needs to escape to a North Carolina backwater because he can't make it with a lot of people around him... well, Anon-e-mouse, you might get a little upset, now, wouldn't you? :0)
Of course I posted that just for example, you understand. No disrespect intended.
But I can't wait to get back to rural North Carolina, where I know all of my neighbors and can still leave my doors unlocked and the keys in the car.
Dunno about you, but I certainly wouldn't leave my keys in the car even if I knew all my neighbors!
That's the difference between rural North Carolina and even the urban centers like Raleigh and Charlotte. I had one car where the ignition switch failed (a '63 Dodge wagon with 360K on it) and I simply replaced it with an SPST switch and a momentary for the starter. Neither of the next two owners bothered to put a key-operated switch in either, even though one of them had a parts car with a good one.
Here in New Jersey I won't even leave the top down on my wife's convertible when I park it. That won't prevent theft, obviously, but it might at least slow someone down. We rarely use that car here because she's too afraid.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rural North Carolina is beautiful, and the people there are very friendly (to your face, anyway). But when I went to college for 4 years in Salisbury, and the KKK marched past the Confederate War Memorial downtown every year, I gotta tell ya: I saw a side of rural North Carolina that both disgusted me and scared me silly. I feel much more safe in New York City than I did in North Carolina in that respect, and I'm a WASP! (The only thing the KKK hates worse than non-whites are whites who are sympathetic to them.)
(Thankfully, no overt racism was present at my school.)
That's why your feelings are intriguing to me. This is not to say that I think all rural southerners are klan members. I suppose we all make allowances for the negative aspects of what is "home" to us, simply because it is home. I was glad to go experience The South during college, and many of the prejudices evident there are also evident in Pennsylvania, where I gew up. But I guess I'm a son of the northeast, and the northeast is where I'll stay. I imagine southerners feel the same way.
And now we have come full circle, back to the concept of "local control -- the 'essence of democracy' ."
(The only thing the KKK hates worse than non-whites are whites who are sympathetic to them.)
I've been on the receiving end of their dislike a few times... nothing like a flaming cross on your front lawn to remind you that there are a few intolerant folks still out there. But nowadays, thankfully, they're all bark and no bite, and their actions are condemned by almost everybody.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(The only thing the KKK hates worse than non-whites are whites who are sympathetic to them.)
I've been on the receiving end of their dislike a few times... nothing like a flaming cross on your front lawn to remind you that there are a few intolerant folks still out there. But nowadays, thankfully, they're all bark and no bite, and their actions are condemned by almost everybody.
I'm sorry to hear that. I can't imagine being "on the receiving end" of something like that. It's a good thing the majority of folks in North Carolina are decent.
After reading over some of my posts this past month or so, I think I may have given the impression that I think all Southerners are backward bigots. The board was comparing attitudes towards transit in the Sunbelt and the northeast, and I was simply trying to explore the various mindsets. Just because I personally don't wish to live there right now, and that I am more comfortable at present in New York, doesn't mean I don't still have an affection for our southern states and their inhabitants. In fact, the difference in cultural outlook is one of the things that attracted me towards attending undergrad there.
I hope fellow SubTalkers, especially those from The South, will forgive my seeming prejudice.
There are decent people everywhere. On the other hand, I've witnessed bigoted behavior in New York, New Jersey (esp. the sprawls) upstate PA, and Florida panhandle backwaters.
The bigots don't speak for their communities. However, when someone declines to stand up for what's right because "I don't want to get involved," or "it's not my problem," that encourages the bigots.
The bigots don't speak for their communities. However, when someone declines to stand up for what's right because "I don't want to get involved," or "it's not my problem," that encourages the bigots.
Sometimes standing up for what's right encourages them too, or at least incites them to action (see my post earlier in this thread). But I've never been one to sit down and shut up when my principles are at stake, so I've seen a bit more of their fury than I might have otherwise. I guess that's the price I pay for being able to live with myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good for you.
I think this idea of New York "culture" vs. money elsewhere is silly. Most people come to New York to MAKE money, and if you are college-educated or skilled it's EASIER to get a high level job than in most other places. It's jobs for the less-skilled that New York doesn't have. For every person here for the lifestyle, there are two others who don't want to be here, but are here for the career.
Nor is life as much of a struggle as some whiners would have you believe, unless you are determined to live in Manhattan. I have a ready comparison: my siblings live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the place with the lowest cost of living in the U.S.
I paid more for housing, and pay more in taxes (our real estate taxes are the same but NYC has a whopper of a local income tax). Yet my wife and I earn so much more (and remember, we both work for the government not on Wall Street) that my mortgage is now smaller than either of my siblings. I bought in a recession, not in a tulip bulb frenzy, and that helps. As for the low taxes, thank the federal government, which sucks money out of the Northeast and pumps it into places like Oklahoma.
Restaurant meals are cheaper HERE. Clothing is cheaper here. So are clothing, electronics, and anything imported.
They each have two cars, which they drive everywhere. We have one car, which we use on the weekends. We use mass transit otherwise. Mass transit in Tulsa? Forget it! You don't get much of a break on the price of a car by buying it in Tulsa, though the insurance is cheaper.
Tulsa had annexed its growing suburbs for years, but it's at the point where NYC was after 1900. Suburbs have formed on the borders, they haved the clout to stay out, and the schools are experiencing white flight. My siblings would not send their kids to the high school I attended the two years I lived there before moving back East. It's private school for them -- at a higher cost than we pay for Catholic school in NYC.
In fact, we probably earn more than they do, and spend less, living right here in Brooklyn. We don't have a lawn, it's too hot for them to ever use theirs other than to mow it.
The Sunbelt is no picnic. Move there; you'll see. LA was the Sunbelt until about a decade ago. I'd hate to have to plan for 30 percent population growth in ten years, as Metro Atlanta has. It's a traffic and crime nightmare, and actual Georgians are not pleased. North Carolina is next.
Didn't the Northeast Corridor belong to a private company once upon a time?
Why would it work better the second time around?
And after all the complaining around here, where people actually LIKE rail, what makes you think a regional agency (the Port Autority? or would you like to not fund another transportation agency?) could make a go of it?
Look at the U.K. system now. 30 diff. railroads.
They all suck (as my former Scotrail employee friend said) and they are now all loosing money. Take the London commuter rail operation. While it was nationalized the system made money. Now it has been fragmented and all the seperate companies loose money. Also in England, the train operators don't own the rails which has proven to be a big mistake.
My friend is going to MIT to majour in transportation and is currently writing some papers regarding commuter rail, profitability and verticle integration. Part of the reason for his trip was so that I could show him the best of transit operations here in the NE.
jeez louise, Larry. Y'know, in the recent news about the newest piece of SNCF' TGV to Marseilles. it was said Air France would likely lose upwards of thirty thousand customers a year to the train. AND since it is all socialist it is just a change from energy stupid airline use to energy smart train use. WE need this sort of perspective here not the ostrich like thinking of the conservative ideologues whining 'subsidy' while driving in limo's to the socialist airport for the subsidized airline trip.
I like your reasoning Dave!
I took a pic of the tower at the Stillwell terminal on my recent NYC trip and I was wondering if it were still active and if anyone had details regarding the machine inside.
Yes it's still active, and yes there are pictures of it!
Go to my website!
Stillwell Tower: http://www.zdeno.com/yards/ciy/master_tower.htm
Other NYCT Towers: http://www.zdeno.com/towers_training/towers_training.htm
-Harry
The tower within the Stillwell Avenue station is no longer used. I believe that it is now used by the Signal Dept.
The Stillwell Avenue Interlocking is now controlled by the Stillwell Master Tower in Coney Island Yard.
What about Tower B?
I've asked this before but isn't Tower B part of Stillwell Master Tower. You sometimes hear people calling Tower B.
I get confused between the letters used for the towers in the Coney Island area.
Tower B is Avenue X Tower on the F (I think).
Tower C is the main tower in Coney Island Yard.
Tower D is at Bay 50th Street on the B.
There's another tower just south of 86th Street on the N line.
Zman, you're 1 for 3.
Tower A - just south of 86 St on the N line -not in use.
Tower B - Stillwell Master Tower. Controls the N to 8 Ave; the D/Q to Ocean P'kway (possibly farther); Stillwell Station interlocking; Stillwell Yard; Coney Island Yard; and sometime in the future, the B Line to 62 St/New Utrecht.
Tower C - Avenue X interlocking on the F line and Ave X Yard.
Tower D - Behind Bay 50 Station on the B line. Controls Bay 50 interlocking. Soon to be replaced by Stillwell Master.
1 for 3 eh? I'm surprized that I managed that many.
I have a lunch relief at Kings Hwy on the N. I notice there is a tower at the Highlawn end of the station. What does that tower control
Prior to the Sea Beach signal project, the tower controlled the interlocking at the north and south ends of the station. I presume Stillwell tower handles that now.
So Tower B **IS** Stillwell tower and if you hear someone calling Stillwell and someone calling Tower B they are calling the same place??
Yes
Does anybody have a draft car assignment for the Manhattan Bridge disruption? Because I need the list as soon as possible, thank you
It's still in development, even at this late date.
David
It's pretty easy to figure out what they'll do. R40's on the diamond Q, R68's on the Q local, R68A's on the W, R68's on both the northern B/D lines.
There will be surplus R-68As if things go how you suspect. Though the G might get those...
The "G"? Isn't Jamaica still the home base even after November, since the "G" will run to 71st Avenue during off peak/nights/weekends? Unless you are suggesting R68s going to Jamaica for a new home to supplement the existing MUs already there.
How much more can you cram into that yard anyway? Must be at least 1,000 MUs there already. Maybe they will start storing on center express tracks after Van Wyck.
The whole idea was to change the G to CI because Jamaica needed those trains for the V. I thought the plan would stay the same, even after the agreement to extend the G went through (with additional R-46 sets from Jamaica to supplement).
And the express tracks from 75th ave to 179st are filled up nights and weekends already. The only other place to store trains will be to use the section from the Plaza or Roosevelt to 71st, in the Queensbound direction (which doesn't get used until after 6:AM anyway). I doubt anything will get xferred to Jamaica, and since they don't have many extra cars currently the only way I see things happening is the situation I mentioned above.
Or the N or Q (local).
> R68's on the Q local
Do the R-68's have the yellow circle Q signs? I could have sworn most of them did not.
- Lyle Goldman
With the new R68 roll signs, I'll bet they do.
Does anyone know if there might be enough R30s laying around to restore (even if presently in work service) to service if necessary? For example, if Eastern Division service were to ever be increased?
There's barely enough to make one eastern division trainset. There may be more, but they're damaged beyond repair. Anyway, the remaining R-30s were cannibalized severely, most lack windows and rollsigns on the surface, probably lots of mechanical stuff missing.
In short, no.
there is around 8 cars left at pitkin yard
They could stick them on the Franklin or Rockaway shuttles.
It ain't much, but that's 8 more cars, and more R-68's and R-44's, respectively, for "regular" trains.
Too few to even bother, plus the Franklin Ave. shuttle needs R68's for OPTO service.
5 of the BMT Standard trailers (Car#4045-4049) actually had controllers. The motorized cars were slaved to the trailer cars when the trailer car was being used by the motorman. This was done on the 14th Street Canarsie Line only and the trailer car with the controller was placed at the Canarsie end of the train.
BMTJeff
It must have been only for a couple of years.
The 4000 series trailers were built in 1924. 4000-4039 were immediately permanently coupled between two 2400 series cars. This formed a BX set consisting of two motor cars and one trailer, i,e, 2400-4000-2401.
In 1927 4040-4049 joined the others in the same service, i.e. 2490-4045-2491.
In 1959 the 2400 series were rebuilt, the 4000 series cars were removed and scrapped. In many cases they were replaced by 2600 series cars as the middle unit. The 2600 series cars did have their own motors.
I rode a lot of the 4000 series cars in the 1940's & 1950's, and don't recall ever seeing any signs of a motormans cab or controls. They did have door controls between the middle two doors however, just like all of the other Standards.
According to Sansone's book, those last 5 cars were built as
AX units and had a cab on one end only to function as a control
trailer. They were removed in 1933.
I rode Std 4000 series on the J & L line in the late 50's and early 60's. They had a compartment where the motorman would normally operate but there was a two person bench and no door. The bench was very small unless you were with a girl and necking if it wasn't rush hour. Then the compartment was kinda small. I used to work in the city after school and if a 4000 was in the train I would use the compartment to read and do homework.
The following question was probably asked many times in the past but what did the AB B BX AX etc mean. I recall standing on the west end of 165th street around 330 to 400 PM. A train of Standards would come from the city. Then a two car set would come out of the center lay up track that went to 160th Stree. These two cars added to six would give the train 8 cars head for the city rush hour. During the late evening hours the trains would go back to 6 cars then 3 cars during the early morning hours. IIRC they were down to 3 cars by 10 PM. I only lived a block south of Jamaica Ave at Queens Blvd.
Thanks much
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
A-Single car motorized unit!
B-Three car permanently coupled set (all motorized)
BX- Three car set of two motors with a trailer permanently coupled between them.
AX-I don't recall seeing this one.
The compartments you remember existed in all of the motorized car ends on the permanently coupled ends. There was a motorman's compartment at both ends of all motorized Standards, but they were inaccessible to the public at each end of the permanently coupled three car set. I sure don't remember the trailers having any compartment at all.
If I'm not mistaken these trailer cars (#4045-#4049) were probably used in the fasion that I mentioned during the first two years of their existence.
BMTJeff
When they run B trains on the N for GOs, do they use the express track between 8th Ave. & 86th St.? If so, how do they make the stop at New Utrecht?
If they don't use the express, don't they get stuck behind N trains?
The express track is used and rerouted Bs do not stop at New Utrecht.
-Stef
They use the express track, and they don't stop until 59th street or Coney Island. The B I rode on today went straight from Stillwell to 59th with no stops.
There is no switch at New Utrecht Avenue from the express to local tracks, either northbound or southbound.
I believe the only switches between 86th Street and 59th Street are
at Kings Highway.
Wrong. Switches outside of 8th Avenue.
The T.A., in describing the service changes (to take effect July 22) relating to routes currently going through the Manhattan Bridge, noted that in dividing those lines into two sections, Bronx-Manhattan and Manhattan-Brooklyn, the B as going from Manhattan to Brooklyn would be renamed the W. Er . . . what about bringing back the old T designation which had been applied to the Broadway-West End route (ex No. 3) between fall 1960 (when IND-style letter identifications began to be also applied to BMT routes) and the Chrystie Street opening of 1967 when it was combined with the 6th Avenue-Washington Heights BB to form the B we know today? And as for the S going from 21st Street-Queensbridge and down 6th Avenue – couldn’t they terminate it at Grand Street instead of Broadway-Lafayette?
Just some thoughts. . . .
These questions have been asked and answered here many times over the past few months.
1. That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet (Shakespeare). In other words, it was called W for "West End," and the T designation was in use over 30 years ago, so who (besides railfans) would remember, or care?
2. Grand Street was not designed as a terminal and there is no switch between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand Street (or south of Grand Street for relays). Why isn't there a switch? Basically...because there isn't, and it would take way too long to put one in now (if it's possible at all, due to configuration of the structure) to be of any use during this service change.
David
If I hear another question as to why trains can't turn because of the nonexistant switch before or after Grand St., I will go bonkers. Since many on this board are only interested in their posts and do not spend the time to read other posts, I propose that Dave or any one else who has the ability to update these pages to put a big sign somewhere that states that. Or maybe a Frequently Asked Questions link on this page which asks age old questions so that it doesn't get repeated every 2 days.
=)
Article about August Belmont and The Mineola
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, that's exactly the way she looks inside. I'm glad that I recently moved some of the junk off the desk, to make it a little more presentable. She's now been moved to a barn that is more accesable to the public. If you come to Branford ask to see her, if there is enough staff on duty, it would be our pleasure to show her to you.
Mr t__:^)
My friend Al & I got inside The Mineola during Autumn in NY days courtesy of Lou from Brooklyn and a step-ladder. It is quite a site even in its current condition. You can close your eyes and just imagine the splendor that it once had. Its also easy to imagine what it can be restored to with some TLC. Hopefully the restoration can be started after 6688 is finished.
Hope to see many Sub-talker up in Branford this summer with dirty clothes, goggles and workgloves.
We would need a "Cabinet Maker" to be our Project Leader. The ones we have are in the middle of work on some of our ConnCo trolleys.
I would be happy to join a crew on that car if there was someone who knows what he/she is doing to follow. The work on the R-17 can be learned by anyone, even those amoung us who thought that had all thumbs on their hands < G > That's what I love about the place, you come when you can, they have all those funky looking tools to play with & there is always a teacher there to help you get dirty. Then when you leave for the day you feel satisfied that you did meaningful work.
Mr t__:^)
Story and Video on the history of the Dyre Ave line. In The Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes! It's that time again. Neither I nor WMATAGMOAGH will be around to chat on Saturday, so I, rather than skipping a week or allowing an anarchous chat will move the chat to Wednesday! Once Atlas 1.2 is uploaded, an official announcement will be made.
...with the lists of when all the subway lines opened? Does anybody remember the address?
That's Eric B's site, I can't recall the address off the top of my head.
No, not that one.
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html
But yours isn't the one I'm looking for.
Yes.
It's the Pages of Sheila Sampognaro.
--Mark
THANKS!
This A.M. sighted at the Hoyt-Schermerhorn a clutch of aging red birds. A "G" block my view , but I was able to see these numbers.
8637 then at the far end 8675. I counld Not tell the vintage.
Anyone know whats up? Another TV or movie perhaps!
avid
I saw them yesterday as well, and they were signed up for the #6. As I recall, they were there for a training exercise held at the Transit Museum.
I saw them as I had the opportunity to ride an R-32 A train yesterday from JFK to Manhattan. Anyone who still likes some good express riding with decent speed, here's your opportunity! [The T/O had a very close call -- she was playing the timer just south of East New York on A4 track, and coming round-the-bend was faced with a red-over-red homeball. She went to max service (not emergency) and the train PASSED the signal without dumping. The stop arm must have come down the same split second the front of the train went by. She opened the door at ENY and eyed me hoping I wasn't a TSS!]
>>>>>>>The T/O had a very close call -- she was playing the timer just south of East New York on A4 track, and coming round-the-bend was faced with a red-over-red homeball. She went to max service (not emergency) and the train PASSED the signal without dumping. The stop arm must have come down the same split second the front of the train went by. She opened the door at ENY and eyed me hoping I wasn't a TSS!]
Ohhhhh man, that's one lucky T/O! You've got to take the curve just before the yellow S automatic at 25 mph. Wanna bet from now until she retires that she takes that curve niiiiiice and slooooooow?
Right you are, zman. The rest of the trip she seemed to be a bit more cautious. But still, that's a pretty good stretch of track, and worth waiting for an R-32 or R38 and an empty RFW.
Way, way, back, I rode that on R-1/9s when I was a tiny kid living in Howard Beach. I'd love to take Seashore's 800/1440 on a spin there!
For my money, the best section of track for the RFW is the Rockaways.
But there isn't a day that I wish that I had ridden an R1/9. When in London, I can at least hear what an R1/9 sounded like.
That's the same impression I had when I visited London in 1978. Riding on the District Line, I couldn't help but think of the R-1/9s as the spur-cut bull and pinion gears on those trains moaned and groaned. Luckily the R-1/9s were still around when I became immersed in the NYC subway system.
I'm glad someone else saw them. I thought I was seeing things this morning on my way to Euclid for class (how to relay at Euclid, location of Pitkin Yard, what time Burger king starts to serve lunch).
They were there last night (06/26) at approx 18:30 and again this A.M. Same consist .
avid
Just put an "a" in there because Redbirds roast also. Man that 7 train was hot as hell today. "Redbirds" may be great to railfan on but when it's in the 90s outside you can forget about it, I'd rather be on an R142.
John, stay out of the first car & you'll be fine.
I saw them today also at 0930 hrs, heading on an A to Far Rockaway
We need to chat. So E-mail me at southside2queensbridge@yahoo.com!!!
I've tried logging on since 1:00 and couldn't. I 've noticed that the most recent message was posted around 9:40. What happened?
true, back on now that's all that counts. May we resume solving the world's transit problems!!
I was trying to read messages when it went down. Very sudden. Remember, SubTalk Live is open when SubTalk and BusTalk are closed!
I remember seeing somewhere images with the elevations of the Brighton Line in relation to those on the IRT Brooklyn Line. Where was that?
You're closer than you think:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/IRTBrooklynC3.gif
...are you the Eggman?
Thanks!
Does Metro-North have any public grade crossings on the third-rail portions of its Hudson and Harlem Lines?
Jim D.
I am only familiar with one, at Brewster, there are probably more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh wait...there is another one in Mount Kisco
Peace,
ANDEE
It might be the same one you're talking about, but isn't there one on Roaring Brook Road right by Reader's Digest? It's just outside of Mount Kisco. It's been ages since I've been up there,
MATT-2AV
There are a number of them on the Harlem line, north of White Plains. One or two are within a block of the Taconic Parkway (south of the Sprain, the section with traiffic lights.)
Also, some of the grade seperated crossings on the Harlem line consist of very narrow (even one lane) roadways under the bridges. That even happens on the lower part of the Harlem line, south of White Plains (and in densely populated suburban neighborhoods.)
:-) Andrew
Does Metro-North have any public grade crossings on the third-rail portions of its Hudson and Harlem Lines?
There also are a few on the catenary-electrified New Canaan branch.
Yes, and the fact there is at least one crossing forced all M1 and M3 MU's to get rooftop lights. The lack of ditch lights on the 1100's makes their use north of North White forbidden by the FRA.
Only because of the New Canaan branch must all 340 or so NH MU's get roof lights.
I'm making the trip up to the museum tomorrow via SEPTA/NJT/SUBWAY.
when i get to Penn Station do you recommend taking the 3 or the A/C to the museum?
The 2/3 to Borough Hall will get you closest to the museum
Peace,
ANDEE
is not A/C to Hoyt/Schermehorn Closer?
No
SUBTALK LIVE THIS WEDNESDAY
June 27, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening! The Wednesday evening chat is a one-week special. There is no chat this Saturday, the 30th of June!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
For an explanation of this request, see the chat policies.
I totally don't understand why you have so many problems using this
I think it has to do with my version of Netscape.
What browsers are people using to read the ATLAS invites? Yes, you may respond to this message and you will not be violating policy.
That should be a policy revision, responding to messages is OK when it relates to the display of the announcement. When it relates to the chat, it still has to be e-mail.
It's not clear to me why you guys think you can set policy about who responds to what here anyway.
Probably because no one has told them they can't.
Nothing would prevent us from stopping someone from responding to a chat announcement on the board, but we can punish them regarding room usage.
Ahh. Ok, I see where you're coming from.
If anyone gets "punished" at the chat site for a reply on this board, please let me know privately. I'm curious to hear about what goes on.
The only punishment administered so far was against Ry-trans-it. He had been banned for the day. He got his fifth strike (permanent ban) by responding to the message.
There's only one reason I implemented this: When I did, Ry and Q46 responded to the board saying the chat was cancelled that night because they had failed to connect. This way everybody was turned away before I even knew there was a problem and corrected it (in less than a minute).
I won't enforce the rule strictly and never really intended to do so. This just gives me the oppurtunity.
Any plans on renovating the J through Bed-Stuy? This line looks like sh... we took it recently and the neighborhood below was no better. Graf,vacant lots and burntout bldgs.I know it's the oldest line on the system but it's rider's deserve better.
On the same subject, anybody know when the Stillwell station's renovation will begin?
The Broadway-Jamaica Line was recently resignalled and several of the stations are being rehabilitated. If memory serves, the line structures (besides the Williamsburgh Bridge approaches, which were done as part of the bridge reconstruction project) were recently rehabilitated as well.
As to Stillwell Avenue, preliminary work has begun. It's a four-year project in a large space, so even if it looks like nothing's being done at a given point in time, that doesn't mean that nothing's being done.
David
Stations from Hewes to Eastern parkway are being rehabbed now (or will start later this year. Currently Lorimer, Gates, Chauncey are being rehabbed. Myrtle/Broadway is already rehabbed.)
Marcy is scheduled for the five year program and will include elevators. The station from Alabama to Crescent is also in the five year plan. Stations from Cypress Hills to 121 already are done.
Didn't they get that in the '80's when they got rid of the wooden platforms ?
The current plans will replace wooden mezzanines where they exist, remove old style transite/wood canopies,upgrade lighting, remedy structural deficiencies, etc. Maybe the 1980s project just added concrete platforms. The new renovations are to bring the stations into a " State of good repair with a 35 year lifetime."
All Fulton St. J stops were almost completely rebuilt in 1978-9. The old wooden mezzanine still exists at Van Siclen Ave, and the old canopy supports still exist at Cleveland, Norwood and Crescent. It was much more than just concrete platforms.
If they are gonna do a big rehab here, I'd suggest extending the canopies at Norwood and Cleveland. 90% of these stations are unprotected from the elements and during rainy weather all the people tend to crowd under the pitifully small canopies, blocking the path to the exits.
What will happen to the arrows?
yo Marty you up for the "Electric" Livonia Walk again? Im ready to go
I have no clue what you're talking about. I know that the L line throught East New Yok and Brownsville has a change in cars. Too bad I really liked the slants on the "L". Is it going electric or something?
As for our walk down Livonia Seven; I dare us to do that at night! I want to walk under the EL at midnight or 2 am. I think it's the 3 Line that runs over Livonia with it's adjacant vacant lots. HA! Yeah baby, what do you think of that? Once we've done that one, Let's get off at Decatur under the "J" and walk down Broadway see whazzzzzzzzzzzzzup at 3AM in Bed-Stuy. What kind of activity happens at that time of the night!
I'm coming down later this fall, hope you da man up here this summer!!
Hoborifically yours.
You guys try something like that and I guarantee that you'l be worm food before dawn.
E_DOG
I don't get it!
Unless you're a good shot, stay clear of Bed Sty. beneath the J after hours. Those "brothers" don't play.
E_DOG
You hear that seven? Maybe you can get the Jinx crowd to go there and see how many times they get shot at? LOL!
Maybe we can get the Grand Concourse Writers there huh? BTW E-DOG Some Those "brothers" are my friends, If you mean black people just say it,
Look, I'm African-American too and even I have more sense than to go running around there after hours. If you think this is a joke, go on in; the worms will be licking their chops. LOL!
E_DOG
excellent. I found saftey in Numbers. would you agree?
To a point. The larger the numbers, the better your chances.
E_DOG
HAHAHAHA, hey marty if you read this I'll update you on the jinx situation
Yup I need an update on this whole messy situation. There is no insulting anybody here on this post. All I want is to see what goes on in East New York, Brownsville or Bed-Stuy after dark. I know many people say not to go after dark. I've driven through East Tremont, down Livonia and Pensylvania aves. through Brownsville and under the "J" down Broadway. I know what these communities are like. I want to get the next step done! A walking tour of these neighborhoods. Maybe we can take the J or L lines at night.
Anybody interested???
I am more then interested, you know I got balls, or lack of brains, which ever, just make it here man.
When you say that you want to know what "goes on" in these neighborhoods after dark, you are implying that bad things happen, and you want to see just what.
You'll see alot of lots, where nice homes once stood. You'll see more independent fried chicken joints and pizzerias, and fewer franchises. Less banks, and more check-cashing stores. No 7-11's, but many bodegas.
As far as what goes on, the streets are probably desolate, because most people in these neighborhoods are law-abiding citizens, who fear the few who give these neighborhoods their reputation.
well ive done it many times,bymyself and with others many times.Sometimes just to walk home insted of takin the train. And yes,Broadway can be drery and sometimes scary at night[but]if you use your head[and dont act like your soft or an ''out of towner''] you'll be okay.
What do you think the worst corner down Broadway is for trouble. No doubt that Cooper or Decatur are pretty rough. I've driven down broadway day and night . It sure is a different world at night. This is why I'd like to ride the subway during this time and see the difference. Just how bad is it?
I have a friend that lives on Mother Gaston Blvd and Broadway[NYCHA]in which the J line makes a bee line to for me. most times a short ride to Chancey st will do, if not,Q24 lets me off on the couner. Look,Im not saying Broadway isnt bad[ive lived in Bed-Sty most of my life]what I am saying is every town has there '' bad neighborhoods''and Brooklyn's no exception. I remember when Broadway use to be a nice place to live,shop and basically enjoy your self. TIMES have changed and thing arent what they use to be. By the way, Broadway and Dekalb ave is the place you realy wouldnt want to be at late at night,if you must know.
This is great info. If you live in the area is there anyway you can show me around so as to not get involved with the troubled teens??
Marty.
just sent u a email. We can talk.
Hey Marty I'll be in Brownsville tomorrow, I'll get some pics for ya, by the way Am I one of those "troubled teens"? and how well did Playland fit in that day, HAHAHAHA oh sweet memories.
will do marty im very close to joining you and your moose friends in Montreal Coming up the following month of July. Hope you got the Graffiti space 'cause I got the Krylon. BTW I was there visiting someone nearby on Sutter Yesturday, I'll email you privetly.
I have friends on all lines that will be glad to give personalized tours of Lower Manhattan and Downtown brooklyn.
Defacing public proerty is not art but a crime.
If you are so thrilled with defacing property of others, can we come to your place or Seven's place and draw on your walls.It would be "fun"
Of course not-- we would not last. Why do you think the subway is for defacing?
Again I guess this is a missunderstanding!
The L and J lines run 24/7 all I wanna do is see them at night. I don't plan on defacing any "Private or Public property" i just wanna experience the subway and it's neighborhoods at night!
What is up with that??
That is OK. I just know from previous posts that another subtalker likes to leave presents in the system.
You may ride the system 24 hrs a day- leave nothing but frootprints and take nothing but pictures and fond memories.
I add cautions for the J and sections of the L overnight. I have a lunch on those lines and some stations are very creepy. One station I had to go to because the supervisor asked me to deliver some supplies to the booth. What a scene- people sitting on top of all the turnstiles looking very tough. I was glad to get out of there. Even the S/A in the booth kept the door closed and asked me to shove the package through the phone aperture. I wont reveal the line or station but I was very glad to get away.
Hmmm, I'm guessing New Lots Av on the L. Am I close?
OH!!!
Pls tell me, as to avoid any ordeals with locals. The last thing I need is to be a tourist statistic. Taking pictures of urban landcape is hard enough as is. I don't need the added presure of offending the local teens. The Subway is still the best shot. Nothing like an "EL" for pictures.
Plenty, if you don't have a death wish. I went through there after hours doing research for my book. At night there are no lights save that of the El itself. Even the West Side of Chicago (on the Douglas L) is better lit and in that case I had sense enough to have an escort (Graham Garfield) who worked for the CTA. So if you insist on going, then go ahead. You've been warned and the worms are hungry tonight.
E_DOG
Interesting. What book are you talking about. I've taken so many pictures of urban landscape in both NYC and Chicago that I'm thinking of publishing something. I was in Chicago two summers ago, rode the system. The Robert Taylor homes on the South Side along with the notorious Dan Ryan expressway. What an erie part of town.The CHA slowly tearing down the Taylor homes. On the west side the Henry homes were very scary. I got off at Pulaski in broad daylight a drive by shooting a couple of blocks away from the subway station. The west side of chicago a couple of years ago looked like a bombed out place. Vacant lots burntout brownstones. We were going to take the Green line again this time at night, the CTW told us we just missed the last train. I'm still wondering what we would have done if we had taken the last one with no way of getting back. No cabs go out to that part of Chicago. We asked!!
I'm into urban exploration, there is nothing like it...
marty.
I too, am ready. At any time.Also, Vlad and I are planning a way to get to Montreal.A hoboriffic way.
Coooooooooooooooool, we can head under the L or 3 on a Friday or Saturday night. Let's experience the hood as best we can.
I thought they were doing something with it in Bed Sty. I know it was repainted and some stations were rebuilt but that was about it; the neighborhood is still a death trap. Unless you're five foot ten and over 200lbs, I'd think twice about going in there, especially at night. I'm big enough to crush several guys at once but even I'm not bulletproof.
E_DOG
Unless you're five foot ten and over 200lbs, I'd think twice about going in there, especially at night.
I'm 6'1" and 220 pounds (185 cm and 100 kg in sensical measurements) yet I wouldn't go there at night unless I had the great equalizer hidden behind a great equalizer-proof vest.
NY1 is currently showing a feature on the CONEY ISLAND YARD as part of its Brooklyn week feature. Most interesting is the R-32s getting their new floors.
Peace,
ANDEE
Coney Island Yard also contains more rail than any system in the world except London's.
It is no secret that Route 110 in Huntington is a traffic. nightmare. One of the proposals from officials in Huntington and Babylon to ease the congestion is to reopen the old Republic Station near the Republic Aviation Plant. NYSDOT wants to buy the land where the closed station now resides. Then the land would be leased from the state for commercial development. The new station would have a new parking lot and shuttle buses operating on the 110 corridor. The main problem is that Republic Airport needs to extend a runway, and they need the land that DOT is buying. If they get past the runway thing, I hope they will reopen the station.
Sorry to have to embarrass the website host here, but I was trying to
ascertain street directions to the new northern depot for the Newark
City Subway in Bloomfield (as photographed by Daniel Boyar on this site),
and he had no clues.
Can Daniel or someone else here help out?
And again, really sorry, David.
I was trying to ascertain street directions to the new northern depot for the Newark City Subway in Bloomfield
According to my NJT NCS system map, it's at Grove Street about a block north of Bloomfield Ave.
A block? Thats about atleast 2-3 mile block from Bloomfield Ave subway station. Easiest way to the new station is take the subway to Heller Parkway and walk along Heller towards the Burger King, when Heller becomes Franklin St walk that way about 5-6 blocks until you see Stop and Shop make a left at that light and it is rite there.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I was referring to Bloomfield Ave, not the station. The questioner knew that the terminal is in Bloomfield.
Acutally, it would be easier to get off at Franklin and then get on the #90 bus which goes right past the facility.
But there is no place to get a beer and some reasonably decent Spanish food at Franklin.
But there is no place to get a beer and some reasonably decent Spanish food at Franklin.
Try Spanish Manor at Franklin Ave & Heller Pkwy
KMA: But there is no place to get a beer and some reasonably decent Spanish food at Franklin.
RIPTA42HopeTunnel: Try Spanish Manor at Franklin Ave & Heller Pkwy
Poisonally, I'm into Indian. But I can find that in Jerrrrrrrrsey City!!
BoB
Indian food is OK. Now, if they could only figure out how to run a railroad.
Try Spanish Manor at Franklin Ave & Heller Pkwy
I have. That's why I favor the Heller Pkwy stop over the Franklin Ave one.
Good photos,but those cars mygod look like breadboxes with wheels....why can't the the people who design these things come up with a more pleasing type of car ? look at the lines of the C L R V 's that run Canada very pleasing to look at they have style almost like the classic PCC cars,why don't areas who have these systems ask the riding public what they think the cars should look like ? have several designs and let the people pick the type of cars they will be riding for the next 20 years.
I remeber commuting on this line when I didnt have a car, the overhead wires will break frequently, causing mass confusion, crowded platforms heavy traffic and infrequent temporary bus service.I think its time to switch to third rail on this line, its the most used line out of the three, and the catenery lines break because of heat, ice, lightning strikes, sometimes the TO forgets to activate of deactivate the catenery system and the train comes to a stop.whatever I know it costs millions but could it be done in the near future?How come wayyyyy back when the builders of the railroad didnt install the third rail then?
Because catenary is better. The trouble is, the stuff on the New Haven line is acient. It is currently being replaced.
BTW, third rail is illegal in CT anyway.
As you may know, trains that depend on the third rail have their annoyances. When crossing a gap at grade crossing and during switching, the lights and the a/c go out until the train gets power again. This happens a lot when entering Penn on the LIRR. With overhead wires, the train always has power during switching. I sometimes wished that the LIRR had catenary. But I agree that the wires do break and that ice forms on them. Sometime last year, one of a pair of F40s in Amtrak livery pulled down over two miles of catenary, not on the MN main line. Amtrak sent in a yard goat GP40 to tow the train to the next station. As for installing TR, I think that it wouldn't make sense. Catenary installation was completed from NH to Boston, a pipe dream that the NH couldn't make come true because of money problems. It would mean that Amtrak would have to run P42s to NH, then change for pantograph equipped F40s. With the catenary, Acela trainset can now run through to Boston and Springfield without an engine change.
There's no catenary on the line from New Haven to Springfield, also called the Inland Route. Trains to Springfield still have to change power in NH and most trains on the Inland Route consist of a Genesis diesel, a standard Amfleet coach and cab control car converted from a Metroliner EMU. The newly laid wires run from NH along the eastern CT shoreline, through Rhode Island, and onto Providence and Boston. And from what I've heard, it's in Rhode Island and Massachusetts where the Acela expresses hit 150. Should make for a fun ride!
Amtrak needs the catenary, and it's dumb to have both third rail and catenary on the same line, it would cost twice as much to power the thing. If they were to take down the catenary and put in third rail, AMTRAK would need overhead / third rail equipped engines with underrunning third rail shoes (that can retract so there are no problems with NYP's third rail), more unnecessary expenses.
It would take a change in Connecticut law to accomplish. Third rail is not permitted in Connecticut.
David
Reason for CT law?
Are subways illegal there too?
Frankly, I don't know the reason for the law, though I'm certain of its existence. It goes back to antiquity.
As to subways, it's possible to run a subway with pantograph operation.
David
There is a subway system where overhead wires are used. If I'm not mistaken it is in Madrid.
BMTJeff
I don't remember about Madrid, but at least two, possibly three of Barcelona's five lines use catenary, as do the interurban lines that run underground into Barcelona.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Paris RER, London Thameslink, many lines in Japan and Korea, Blue line in LA, etc... Ah, I almost forgot Newark. Quite a long list.
Paris RER and London Thameslink commuter rail and the Newark city subway uses trolley wire. The Boston Blue Line is the best example. It's it also dual powered?
Newark still uses trolley wire? They put pantographs on the PCCs (and put up new wire, IIRC) a while ago. Is the new wire trolley wire?
BTW, doesn't the MBTA have a line ortwo that runs underground with wire overhead?
I thought they kept the trolly wire, but I haven't been up there in a while.
The blue line runs on third rail from Bowdoin to Maverick (first stop after crossing the Inner Harbor) and overhead from there to Wonderland.
Therefore all underground sections still use third rail.
Blue line yes, Orange line yes, Red Line, yes Green Line No.
I was talking exclusively about all underground sections of the blue line ONLY. I figure that it's perfectly clear from the context. I really don't enjoy writing messages like a lawyer to prevent anybody from "correcting" the message.
Neither Paris RER nor London Thameslink use trolley wire.
They both use mainline style catenary.
My point was that they weren't subways. They are railroads.
> My point was that they weren't subways. They are railroads.
...running in underground tunnels with underground stations.
Well, maybe not so underground on the Thameslink.
But I would consider Paris RER central sections as subway lines.
Anyway, subway with overhead current collection is not rare
outside the US. In the US, the one that quickly comes to my
mind is the MUNI metro in SF.
Do not forget SEPTA, which for a short stretch in the center of Philadelphia runs underground like a subway, and there is no third rail, only catenary. The tunnels are large, but then they had to accomodate GG-1's during the time the Pennsylvania was in charge, and that explains that. Check out the suburban lines through Philadelphia and out to Germantown - for example, the R-7 route - as soon as it leaves 30th Street Statin, it goes into the underground lines through the center of the city, and the ride at the railfan window is great.
Here is the reason - when the New Haven Railroad first began service, they used third rail, but it was configured like the Lionel Trains, with the third rail placed in the middle of the track. The CT lawmakers at that time went bonkers when they saw that, and concern for the safety of children, drunks, and anyone else wandering onto the tracks was the reason for the law banning third rail systems. That is what prompted the New Haven to use the type of catenary and power supply that is now in use, and I believe that the Pennsylvania Railroad adopted the same type of system for their own use. That gave the New Haven access to Penn Station via the Hell Gate Bridge, but for some reason ( possibly a dispute with the intransigent Pennsy ) they moved operations to Grand Central Terminal, thus needing to be able to use third rail in addition to catenary. The current equipment used on Metro-North in CT should be able to get into Penn Station using their own pantographs, but the third rail in Penn Station will cause some problems for them, since it is a different type. Should there be a fire or derailment on the New Haven branch just west of the connection to the Hell Gate bridge, could this be a viable alternate route for service into New York City?
"Should there be a fire or derailment on the New Haven
branch just west of the connection to the Hell Gate bridge, could this be a viable alternate route for service into New York
City?"
That's absolutely fascinating. I had never even thought of Penn Station as being a potential detour destination for New Haven line M units in the event of an emergency. I know very little about Penn, but I don't see why this is not possible, track space permitting.
MATT-2AV
"but I don't see why this is not possible, track space permitting."
Don't even think of it. (Track space does not permit it)
How many tracks has Grand Central?
NYP has 21 tracks, and they cannot not all be accessed from the Long Island side of the station, and those as that can be are FILLED with LIRR traffic.
If MN trains cannot get into GCT, then they will have to dump loads in the Bronx, just like LIRR would dump loads at Woodside.
Elias
Only tracks 1 through 4 are not accessible from the LIRR.
Grand Central has about 40 tracks. But remember, there isn't much of a yard there so most of that space is for train storage. The #s go from 11 (maybe 7 or 9) to around 40 on the upper level, and from 101 or 100 to 117 on the lower. Several tracks have been replaced by machinery or other whatnot, there is no track 12 for example.
Perhaps consideration should be given for MNHN service to alternate route using the HELL GATE then the Eastside Access to Grand Central, shareing the ppoposed LIRR connection from Sunnyside to GC.
Some could dump at Woodside or Long Island City if the jam was so horrific!
avid
That is what prompted the New Haven to use the type of catenary and power supply that is now in use, and I believe that the Pennsylvania Railroad adopted the same type of system for their own use.
The PRR did indeed adopt the same system about 7 years later for their Paoli electrifacation. I am not sure if this was due to technical considerations or some sort of long term plan to connect with the New Haven.
That gave the New Haven access to Penn Station via the Hell Gate Bridge, but for some reason ( possibly a dispute with the intransigent Pennsy ) they moved operations to Grand Central Terminal, thus needing to be able to use third rail in addition to catenary.
When Penn Station was built in 1910 is was electrified with over contact 660 Volt Third Rail. The wires didn't hit Penn Station until 1933. The only differance b/t GCT and Penn was the type of third rail. The FL-9's were built with dual position third rail shoes to solve this problem. Now once the wire was up I know that New Haven trains were quite frequent at Penn Station, but before then I don't really know. I can't confirm that the early NH electric units had dual position shoes and there might have been a power change at GATE or HAROLD. Anywho, I don't see how there could have been enough bad blood b/t the PRR and the NH to preclude through service to Boston.
The NH was the non-bias friend who could freely deal with both the NYC and PRR. This is why I am against any connection between PRR and NYC that dosen't involve the NH.
The history of the NH-PRR connection: The original NH line ran to Grand Central down the NYC Harlem Divison. In order to break the NYC monopoly, the NH built its own line through the East Bronx to connect to Hell Gate Bridge, the NY Connecticut Railway, and Penn Station. (To make the confusion complete, when the NH issued bonds for this project, it was called the "Harlem Branch"!)
It is reported that whatever the NYC did, the PRR did the opposite: NYC used third rail - PRR used overhead. NYC used color signals; PRR used positional signals.
Finally, the third rail shoes on the NH MU cars CANNOT work on the LIRR type third rail without modifications. (I worked on that contract back in the late 60's and we all felt it was absurd not to have compatibility.)
Indeed. The PRR-NYC rivalry is still costing us money. Some day, and sooner better than later, the third rail issue will need to be resolved. (The ultimate liklihood will either be a universal shoe or adjustable shoe IMHO) When this is done, genuine regional rail services can be contemplated. My (dead horse) pet project is Jamaica to New Haven service and through routing New Jersey runs as well.
NH built its own line through the East Bronx to connect to Hell Gate Bridge, the NY Connecticut Railway, and Penn Station. (To make the confusion complete, when the NH issued bonds for this project, it was called the "Harlem Branch"!)
The NH already had a freight line through the East Bronx. When the New York Connecting Railroad was built it utilized the former NH RoW. I am unaware of the exact ownership details of the NYCRR.
I don't know why they just didn't use the dual position 3rd rail shoes on the NH MU's.
Also the PRR's third rail opposite was over contact. The overhead catenary system on the otherhand was not due to spite, but to different operating characterictics. The NYC had only ever intended it's 3rd rail system as a shuttle to avoid NYC's smoke law. The PRR's overhead was for long distance operations.
From what I heard you can thank Connecticut NIMBY's since 3rd rail is BANNED in Connecticut due to safety reasons. Overhead wire can work well, but in tame climates I think it fares better. they use it in Japan I don't think they have alot of problems.
It's more a matter of antiquated facilities and maintenance.
The section between Kyoto and Osaka in Japan (part of the original
portion of the high speed Shinkansen line) suffers a lot from heavy
snow, while the more recent sections in heavy snow areas in the North
keep running under harsh weather conditions.
The section of NEC shared (and owned) by the MNR has an old catenary
system from the NH days. Undermaintained and antiquated, therefore
the speed limit for the Acela.
The congestion is caused by Metro-North traffic and Metro-North trackwork. Back in 1908 the NH was running trains on the Stamford catenary section up to 90 mph, but today Amtrak barely clears 70. It's not like Amtrak trains are biting at the bit to go faster here. After MNRR replaces all that classic catenary Amtrak will still be stuck going 70 (or slower) behind some local. The only differance will be that you don't have such nice catenary to look at any more. (If you look at it long enough you get a little hypnotic effect going and you'll fall asleep, making you trip feel mich shorter.)
/*Back in 1908 the NH was running trains on the Stamford catenary section up to 90 mph, but today Amtrak barely clears 70.*/
No, no, no, no and no.
The MAS on the line was 65 back then. It wasn't raised to the current MAS until the 70's or 80's.
Back in the NH days (60's) the MAS between New Haven and Stamford was at least 80. From Stamford west it was 65. (There is a difference between the catenary setup west of Stamford and east of Stamford.)
The running time on a NH express from New Haven to Penn Station (using a GG-1) was less in 1967 than the current Acela running time!
That's because GG-1's are magical and bullet proof.
I was reading a section in a book about the EP-1's. They were geared for 65, but frequently exceeded 80 and were once seen getting up to 89.
What they locomotives could do and what the MAS was are two different things. Until the Amtrak days (and even into them), RRs tended to look the other way when it came to speeds.
Everything I've read/heard says the MAS was 65 throughout the line, with restrictions as needed.
newyork has new cantenary wires connecticut still has much old stuff left, they only are changing the wires on the hi speed tracks
Overhead wire is used in Europe (Switzerland, for example) where bad weather is a problem.
The New Haven Line wire from the Connecticut line to New Haven is the "old" three-wire version. That is being replaced with the new two-wire version, already in NY State.
The big question with Sunday's problem is why the "new" wire came down -- it was supposed to be immune to that type of problem!
Also, the advantage of overhead wire is that heavy snow does not stop operations as it does with third rail. (Of course, since the lines to Grand Central use third rail . . . .)
In a few ways I would rather see a third rail on the New Haven Line than catenary wire. I think that the third rail is less trouble prone.
BMTJeff
Third rail could be less trouble-prone, but it stinks for high speed rail. The Eurostar uses third rail on the English side of the Channel and doesn't go very fast from London to the Channel. But on the French side it hits 185 under the wires.
Could a third rail and an overhead wire be used on the same track?
BMTJeff
Could a third rail and an overhead wire be used on the same track?
If both are the same voltage and frequency, yes. Grand Central has some overhead (rail, in this case, but overhead nonetheless) above crossovers so as to prevent stalling. I don't know if it has any equipment equipped with mini-pans any more, though - maybe a work locomotive or two, that's all.
And the Barcelona subway had some sections of track that were shared by lines three and four, one of which used third rail and the other of which used overhead, back in 1973. The track isn't shared any more (it's all line four now) so I don't know if that situation still exists.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If both are the same voltage and frequency, yes.
And if they are of different voltages and frequencies, yes. Two examples are the NH Main Line near Mt. Vernon where the changeover b/t AC and DC 3rd rail is made and from HAROLD to the mouth of the North River tubes where the LIAR 3rd rail trains run on the same tracks as Amtrak/NJT overhead catenary trains. The fomer Hudson and Manhattan lines where PRR freight and passenger trains ran on the same tracks as 3rd rail powered tube trains.
Aren't those areas switched from one power source to another depending on what's operating? (In other words, both sources aren't live at the same time in the same area.) I'm no electrician, but it seems to me that you'd have a real interesting problem if two trains operating on different currents were in the same area at the same time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The NH MU's have been of two designs. Onces that uses AC/DC universal motors operating c.660v and others that use AC/DC rectifers and again c.660V motors. In each case the 12,500 VAC current is transformed to 660V. So in those cases the motors never see a second type of power supply.
What I wonder about is how you can have straight AC locos (like a GG1) operating with AC/DC locomotives (like an E-44). I can see how AC and DC systems can operate on the same track (like the LIAR and PRR) by using some sort of impedance bond, but then your locos are returning two types of current I don't have a clue.
You have to realize that as long as the power supply sides do not come into contact with each other, there is no problem. All the power is returned via the ground, and there is no conflict there.
Both AC and DC can be used on the same tracks, as they are both grounded. Their "hot" or power supply sides cannot be mixed.
It's just this little chromium switch here ... (click) ... whaddya want? Watts from above? Watts from below? Watts for tots? We got 'em available in all denominations. 'Cept for Krooklyn ...
"Could a third rail and an overhead wire be used on the same track?"
Ah... er.... pardon me.... have you ever been in Penn Station?
Which is to say you build railcars for the lines that they will run on, with the current collection and power systems that are being used there.
Knowing that the third rail is 600VDC and the wires are whatever else AC, it seems obvious that they do not, would not and could not be directly connected to each other.
Elias
I read somewhere that the amount of electric current lost via third rail is greater than that lost from catenary. Add to that the fact that third rail uses direct current, which requires a substation every few miles, while the catenary ( if it uses AC ) does not. So it becomes a question of economics as to what system to use. Third rail systems are limited to a maximum of about 700 volts, if I am not mistaken, whereas the catenary can take up to 25,000 volts or more. So therein lies the problem.
Whatever system that if chosen should depend upon the situation that has to be dealt with. If electric trains are to travel long distances catenary wire would probably be the best choice. Third rail is probably better for shorter distances such as in a subway system or a commuter railroad for example.
BMTJeff
LIRR third rail supplies 750 volts DC.
It's true that catenary is more efficient. Third rail has some advantages in certain environmental coditions (high winds for example, or places where you don'tr want to put in the posts needed for the catenary).
third rail DC can be as high as 1000V BART
BTW a sidebar comedic fact. in the early seventies when BART shut down at 8PM friday to reopen on Monday, the Stanford Linear Accelerator had to be recalibrated because the presence or absence of the 'fields?' from the third rail in the East Bay affected measurements in POalo Alto (20+miles distant)
1 kilovolt? What are they using out there anyway? Either the grades are really challenging, or the MU's have some serious electronic accutrements, or some guys in the design and engineering department got real freaky. What's up?
Same reason that BART has the widest gauge in North America - 5' 6". Why? 'cause the engineers (none of whom seemed to any rail experience) specified it.
Five and a half feet is the same as Pennsylvania standard gauge - the Market-Frankford line is built that way.
Not quite. Pennsylvania "standard" gauge is 5' 2 1/2". Philadelphia gauge is 1/4" narrower at 5' 2 1/4". The Market-Frankford is built to the Philadelphia gauge.
Baltimore has the widest streetcar gauge in North America with 5' 4 1/2".
BTW the New Orleans gauge is 5' 2 1/4", same as Philadelphia. Some of the New Orleans horsecar lines we built with Philadephia money. The Saint Charles line started life as a steam line, built to standard gauge and was not converted until 1924.
BART beat everybody with that 5' 6" gauge.
Basic rules of electrical engineering --
(1) The transmission loss is proportional to the current, not the voltage.
(2) The current is inversly proportional to the voltage (for the same number of watts - which is what is required for the train).
(3) The size of the wire require is directly proportional to the current.
So, if you are using third rail, and limited to 1,000 volts, your transmission losses will be about 15 times greater than if you used 17.5kv catenary.
Of course, you could not operate with that type of loss. So, with third rail you have to have more substantions to convert high voltage distribution to third rail service. Also, because of the higher current, you need larger distribution lines for third rail.
This is offset somewhat because with third rail direct current you can use regenerative breaking, which cuts down on energy use. For alternating current caternary, like Metro North, you end up wasting it -- the "toonerville trolley" look to the Metro North MU's is there to allow the resistors used for dynamic breaking to cool -- simply a waste of energy in the a/c zone.
I was in Stockholm NJ over the weekend and "discovered" a railroad track in the back yard. Did somme research on the Web and it appeares that NJT has plans to rreturn commuter service on that line. Couldn't find any dates of completion, so does anyone know when is that line supposed to open (the bus ride to Newfoundland was crappy and way late.)
Arti
They've just started the EIS/MIS process. Don't hold your breath.
Can anyone explain to me why the Upper Level of the Yankee Stadium stop always has the platform lights in the day time. Since the have renovated that station the lights are on all day. It's summertime turn them off. So much for Con ED
I was riding home today in the rear car of a 6-car train and the door latch was completely unlocked. Now PATCO end doors have three latches. One that in the middle that is lockable and two near the ends that provide stability. Anyway, if I was wanting to I could have opened up the end door of the train.
Anybody care for a smoke out on the vestabule?
Theres not much to stand on out there.
I wanted to see who would notice.
What is a hostler controller ?
How does one look like?
There are various types of hostler units. The original R-46 unit was a push-button unit where you used your thumb to hold the deadmans while you selerced switching, series or coast in power or Full service, min brake or coast in brake. Reverse was a toggle switch. The unit was about 7" X 10" and the buttons were Red, yellow and blue. The LIRR DE/DM 30s have a similar unit.
The one R-46 hostler today is a mineature single handle controller. Your reverser key is inserted and pressed down for the deadman. Then after the train is charged, you move the reverser foward to release the brake and take power. Same 2 points of power but a normal brake range. Reverser is a rotary switch.
A number of single-end trolleys have hostler controllers as well. We use them at Seashore to "back-up" trolleys into or out of their barn positions. On standard control trolleys, one usually uses the reverser key to take power (switching & series only); the regular brake handle is used for braking.
Is this a permanently attached device or is it removed when not in use? Where is it connected?
The Hostler is permanently connected to the car. It's mounted in the #1 end 'B' side bulkhead panel on car #6207. I'm trying to locate a picture of it for those who are interested. Incidently, every R-46 was originally equiped (A or B car) with 2 hostlers - one at each end.
Just an aside - When I said the 'B' side, that's depending if you were RTO trained or Car Equipment trained. In Car Equipment, the B side is the operator's side of the car. I've heard RTO people insist the operator sits on the A side.
I have a picture (drawing) of it if you need it...
Thanks Marc. If you could e-mail it to me I'd appreciate it but expect a few other requests
The circuit breakers are located inside the #1 panels, along with some air nozzles. So is the controller right below rhis?
(I used to see this pair sitting in the yard during school-car. Only recently did I start wondering how you did add with it (since the rules say you are supposed to move the smaller number of cars into the larger). If I kew about this hostler, I would have climbed aboard and looked myself. I wonder if the cars are running now, or still in the yard.)
Looking at the swing panel from the inside, the hostler is mounted on a hinge on the left of the panel opening and swings out so the operator can stand at the door when operating. It's about midway up in the opening (vertically)
I just saw F40-PH 1050 in its new color scheme on the fitchburg line.
1052 and 1070 have been completed as well. The full list is posted on the NE Transit Web site.
A couple of weekends ago, they were doing work where downtown 6 trains terminated at 125th. You then had to tranfer there to another 6 train to continue downtown. After studying the trackmap, I see how a downtown 6 out of 138th could be turned around at 125th. It needs to be in the middle at 138th. But, I cannot see how you can turn an uptown 6 out of 116th around at 125th. It seems impossible. How the hell were they doing it?
They could have continued to Grand Concourse and turned in the middle on the 4 line. Or were they turning in the station?
I don't know. I was racking my brain on this one!!
They were turning in the middle track at 138th St and Grand Concourse. Northbound Trains from 116th St going into 125th St switched from the local to the express track south of the station. They discharged on the platform at 125th, and the passengers could transfer to 6 going to Pelham right across the way.
-Stef
Some 6 trains were also turned at 149-GC (upper level) as well.
The House of Representatives passed HB 2299 tonight, which is the FY 2002 Transportation Funding Act. Apparently, judging by the little speech given by Congressman Nadler (who was heckled) funding was approved for the cross-harbor tunnel in the bill, but no funding was included for the Second Ave. subway.
Of course, the Senate still has to pass its version of the bill and then it has to go to conference, so in the end it could either have money for both, money for neither or it might just stay the same. Depends on what kind of clout Schumer and Hillary have, now that the Democrats are in the majority there.
(Since I've been on vacation for the last few weeks -- nothing like having a bear fall out of a tree near you in Shenendoah National Park -- I don't know if the Times, News or Post has done anything on the Transportation funding issue, but I'm willing to bet they haven't)
Wasn't ESA also given some cash to play with?
Since I've been on vacation for the last few weeks -- nothing like having a bear fall out of a tree near you in Shenendoah National Park
Being under the tree at the time would have been even more remarkable!
Just goes to show that the big rail interests still hold a lot of clout down there in Washington. While us little ol' commuters still have to suffer.
You're right. The onus now IS on Shumer and Clinton.
Now would be a very good time for Clinton and Schumer to start making some deals.
Still, this is one of many opportunities. Start the project using the state capital funds; keep attacking at the federal level. It'll still happen. Look at the Big Dig in Boston. The politics were more favorable up there, to be sure. But it's not time to give up.
On Sunday June 26th 1927 the most famous roller coaster in the world opens at Coney Island. It is the "CYCLONE" and today it celebrates its 74th birthday.
BMTJeff
And the Brooklyn Cyclones played their home opener the other day. Hope they have a better season than the Mets, who are merrily Flushing their season down the toilet.
The Mets have lost six games in a row at last count. If anyone is a baseball fan you might do better watching the Brooklyn Cyclones play at Coney Island. Then afterwards you can go on the "Cyclone" for a wild ride.
BMTJeff
Rode the F today through Brooklyn and got an extra treat. Now I expected the express between 4th and Jay Brooklyn bound. One little thing through, there's no switch to the local! So we ran express all the way to Church. What a great run. This time we sped past the Bergen lower level and I finally got to see the Prospect Park express tunnels. After coming off the viaduct and some timers we arrive at 7th ave on the express track.
Then we descend to the lower level, pretty fast at first, then after the tube and downgrade there are some timers into Church. All in all a pretty good run. I really wish they'd fix the tower and use these tracks on a regular basis. Maybe once the B division car shortage is fixed maybe we'll see that. Got held up for 10 minutes before and after W8th because of delays at the terminal. The T/O said to some of the few folks on the train while waiting at W8th, maybe it would be quicker if you walked.
At Stillwell I got a R68A B train that ran express on the Sea Beach. It was a pretty fast run, we were breezing through until 8th when they let an N go in front of us. Well we are mere "visiters" on the Sea Beach so the N gets priority.
Pretty good express run on 4th too. Going over the bridge I noticed the finished walkway, no one seen walking on it.
Saw no trains on the south side either.
I posted on the F last week, and hoped to get to run through the express and Bergen lower. Even though the reporting time was 2:30 at Kings Hwy, we had to go to the yard to put in the train, so the actual run was after the G.O. was over for the day. But since we were scheduled to go into service at SMith 9th, I got to operate through the express track all the way from Ave. X to 4th Av. So that was a treat. (To go through the G.O. would have been slow with plenty of flaggers, from what I heard.)
I rode on the express line to, from 7th Avenue to Church Avenue on Monday. Oh it was a joyous ride, and something that rarely happens. People don't know how lucky they are. Like many of us, I wish they had that going regularly.
Riding on A4 track yesterday, I noticed "LU" signs, such as "LU3," "LU4," etc. between Euclid and East New York. I assume they mark lay-up positions for storing trains on the express tracks. Perhaps one of our B division friends (hey, how about newly-converted Alex L.!) can explain the procedure and how orders are issued.
Feel free to correct me guys. I'm assuming the procedure is the same in the B div as in the A Div, but who knows (if I hear one more person tell me "this isn't the IRT" I'm gonna hit him with a brake handle).
The first train to lay-up on a given track will operate normally for that section of track until reaching the LU 1 position, where the TO will dump the train, apply handbrakes (lock the storm doors, turn off car lights and HVAC - this seems to vary by terminal). Until that first train is dumped, the track is mainline: the TO will need permission from Control to pass any red automatics he may encounter. Once that first train is dumped, the track is now storage track and the TOs on the rest of the lay-ups can key by any red automatics they encounter without receiving permission.
During the Lenox Invert, a TO laying up a train between 96 and 110 hit the train in front of him, because he forgot that he had left Flatbush one behind, thereby making him LU 4 instead of LU 3, like he normally was. He came roaring around the curve and there was a train.
As for being newly-converted, I'm still in the midst of the conversion process. I'm not truly one of them until July 22, when I make my first trip on the W.
Thanks, Alex. Do crews from the LUs cross over to the nearest local station and take a service train to wherever they're heading next?
This is "what comes around" for you, eh? I recall meeting you on the R at Whitehall when you were a C/R, now you'll be one of the first to run the W. I'm sure you'll let us know how the Astoria express works out!
Sorry Todd, but that won't be me. On Saturday and Sunday, when I have the W, it shuttles between Stillwell and Pacific St. Thursday and Friday, I shuttle between Queensbridge and B'way/Lafayette and Mondays between 34/6 and 145 St.
One of the guys in my transfer class is working midnights on the Q, and so will probably be one of the first in service over the south side of the bridge.
So you did pick over into the B Division, Alex. Were you able to get the midnight jobs on the lines that you wanted?
I did even better than midnights. Surprisingly, I was able to pick AMs in the South. Granted two start at Queensbridge a little later than I would have liked, but at least it isn't the 0448 report at Concourse that my buddy took.
AHEM!! Hey Alex. this isn't the IRT!!!
Betcha $1 that Alex panicks when he can't find the spot to place the brake handle on an R46.
Yawn! Been there, done that. Wasn't it you we stole the train from at Kings H'way? Short term memeory loss already? ;-)
To prove the IRT point, today we went over the south side of the Bridge. On the return trip, the train went BIE entering 14 St. With 5 TSSs, we were there for over twenty minutes and then another twenty at Prince, because one of the TSSs was ORDERED to call Control on the phone to explain what happened. 40 minutes to explain away a BIE with 5 TSSs present for the occurence (an automatic came up under the train) is unheard of in the IRT. Apparently in the B Div, the buck justs keeps getting passed higher and higher - no one wants to make a decision.
Heh. After 30 years, some things never change. :)
>>>>>Wasn't it you we stole the train from at Kings H'way?
Yeah. I put in a police report, they said that it was found stripped and sitting on top of concrete blocks. I tell ya, you can't get Da Bronx out of dese IRT guys.
Lastly, it doesn't matter what division you're in, a school car TSS is braindead compared to a road TSS.
After all, these school car TSS's work both divisions.
So there. :P
How do you know it was a school car TSS? I thought they (the line) have their guys doing the work.
>> an automatic came up under the train <<
cha-whaaat?
For some reason, electrical in nature, the stop arm of an automatic signal went to the 'trip' position before the train cleared the block. As a result, the train went BIE, with a strike mark on the trip cock of the second car, ie the first car didn't hit the stop arm.
So that thick yellow paint has dual purpose! -Like chalking your tires. ...Sorta.
Sound like the track repeater failed to hold the stop down after the signal dropped out, and the first car made it past before it raised up.
This is why there are tests, I suppose.
I will be away from the evening of Tuesday, June 26, 2001 until at least the morning of Monday, August 20, 2001. During this time, I will have limited access to e-mail, the Internet, and SubTalk and BusTalk, but I may make an occasional post. Response to e-mails may be delayed and there will be no updates to my website during this time (one was just completed). I wish you all the best until my return.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
Driving down Stewart Avenue in Garden City the other day I noticed the freight yard tracks were all completely paved over except for one. The only track left was all the way on the western side against the wall. The crossing on Stewart towards Roosevelt Field & the Meadowbrook Pkway trestle is completely severed from the central branch. It hasn't been used in about 20 years anyway. They might as well put an excempt sign at the crossing since no train will ever pass there anyway.
I guess unless this is temporary (and it don't look temporary) that the circus train will have to park elsewhere. The one lone track isn't enough for it.
EXCEMPT
I thought the EXEMPT is under the crossbucks.
In any case, if there aren't going to be any trains using the crossings, why even have the crossbucks?
Oh, and I guess I should ask: Is this posted from your own webspace? Where did you get the webspace that allows remote loading?
Sarge, I believe the Circus Train will be confined to Sunnyside or some lay-up tracks by Mitchell Field.
BMTman
I'm a newcomer, so forgive if this topic's come up before... I take the Brooklyn F line at 7th Ave, and became intrigued by the presence of the unused express line (particularly since it's practically the longest stretch on the MTA without express service) The more research I did on nycsubway.org, the more intrigued I became. It seems like it would be a fairly easy task to open that express line up, from Church Ave up to Jay Street. They could extend the G line down to Church and make that the local, and make the F the express on that stretch, stopping at Church, 7th Av, and Bergen. The F can remain local along the Culver line and from Jay St up. Apart from finishing the Bergen St express platform, there's no construction involved. Is there any particular reason that this hasn't been done? That express line would shave ten minutes off my commute each way, and I can imagine how much time it would save the Church Ave people, reducing seven stops to two going to Jay St.
(And of course, if the MTA got really adventurous, they could start up the Culver Express again, using the third rail as a Manhattan-bound express during the morning rush, and Coney Island-bound express during the PM rush...)
Peace
John
Car shortage...
Yes, there is a reason. The MTA.
Also, people at Carroll Street keep complaining they would lose direct service to Manhattan, and since they are relatively well-off, the city tends to listen to them more than to us, unfortunately.
By the way, that very idea has been discussed several times on this board before. Unfortunately, Dave Pirmann, the webmaster, cleans out old messages periodically and no longer keeps the archives online. Bummer!
- Lyle Goldman
Maybe once Coney Island comes back bigtime (it's already starting with the new ballpark) the majority of riders who are taking the F to Coney Island will dwarf those loudmouth snobs who use Carroll street. Rich people can't always have direct access to express service, just like everyone else.
Of course they could walk to the Bergen st express station. Oh I forgot those poor women can't walk more than two blocks in their fancy, yet uncomfortable designer shoes.
BRING BACK THE F EXPRESS!!
There actually was weekday express service on the F in this area just as was proposed here. This was between 1968 and 1976
Unfortunately at that time the subway was far different place than it is now. More like rolling grafitti cans.
In 1987 they temporarily halted peak direction express service from 18th ave to Kings Highway for track repairs (according to the map). I'm sure they'll restore that service any day now...
How amusing. They say they're doing 'temporary' trackwork. In reality, that trackwork removed the crossover.
What I want to know is the following: Why remove the crossover? It would be sensible to leave it there. They should also build a double scissor switch N. of Bay Pkwy to make turning M trains much easier.
This was done from 1967 to 1973. Without any Manhattan-bound service at the bypassed stations, it won't work. When the car shortage is eased, perhaps the V can be extended to Church, and then express F service would be feasible. Until then, it's not.
Noticed red diamonds under the number plates on R42 MUs 4711-4712, and 4 more cars (R42s) Manhattan Bound from Bay Parkway today (Tu) at 4:10PM. What's the meaning??
Couldn't have been 4711-4712, since the cars are in married pairs with the odd car being the higher-numbered one. But anyway...
Those are the cars with the door enabler. This device allows the Train Operator to decide whether the Conductor is opening the doors on the correct side of the train and to prevent a wrong-side opening.
David
Is it just me, or are there a lot of subjects lately that have been discussed before?
Yeah...that's the usual,order of things...'round here anyway
I think we've run out of things to discuss.
Personally I prefer off-topic threads than repeating threads.
Well, a lot of folks may be relatively new here, so us 'newbies' don't mind repetition, as it's new to us!!
Hey, why did they stop running #3 Shuttle service between 135th Street and Lenox Terminal at night? They should really bring that service back.
- Lyle Goldman
The shuttle bus they run is sufficient. Besides, those turning-around 3s interfered with the 2.
You forgot to mention the budget cuts in '95 that also finished off the Lenox shuttle.
Actually, it was the '91 budget cuts, the same ones which truncated J service on the weekends to Canal St. (later Chambers).
Tonight, I just noticed some strange signs at the end of the platforms of some stations on the Lexington Avenue Line. They are rectangular signs with three S's stacked vertically on each side, white on black on one side, and black on white on the other side. Has anyone ever seen these before? What do they mean, and how long have they been there?
- Lyle Goldman
They are station car markers. The TA has decided to install them in stations where "exact" station stops should be made so that the doors of trains will line up with the "KEEP CLEAR" areas on the platform.
There are similar signs (white background with 3 S's) at the Union Square and South Ferry IRT stations.
…where they are absolutely necessary so that the gap fillers meet the doors!
John
It isn't to get the doors to align with the fillers. It is necessary in order to energize the fillers in the first place.
But what about those little square signs with the numbers (8, 9, 10)? Don't they tell the motorman where to stop?
- Lyle Goldman
With these you have a range of to were is good ot stop in. Most of the time it is from the front of the pantergrafs to T/O windows. With the new one I think you have to stop right were the front of the car body starts. This is was I saw while standing at 53st and Lex.
Robert
The other day, I saw one with three "10"s in that formation.
"IN THE SUBWAYS" article on the R142/142A.
Peace,
Andee
I am suprised!! Usually Newsday goes out of its way to trash the NYC Subway (or just about anything else NYC for that matter - unless it happens to be Queens).
They still haven't gotten over the "New York" Newsday fiasco.
They did. 20 minute wait for the first train, at noontime the first one came, the next one at 12:30? I think they overlooked a few...
this is going to be worse with the good old reliable redbirds gone !! taste what some of you have mocked !! LOL !!
No, it will be better. No more having to wait for those Redbitches to pass by to get a GOOD train (the R-142).
Today I was aboard a redbird #6 train, I counted 4 cars with no A/C. One of the cars that had A/C was 8628, fitting since today is my birthday (drop the 8).
There are express tracks that can be used to provide quicker F through service to Coney Island by skipping all stops between Jay St. and Church Ave except 7th Avenue. For years the MTA has been saying the tracks cannot be used.
Yet today at Jay Street, I saw signs and heard announcements that the F train would be running express from Jay St. to Church Avenue? How come they can use the trakcs now?
Quite frankly, service on the F train is inadequate. An MTA which understood the needs of the public would extend the new V train to Church Avenue as a local and run the F as an express to Church Avenue; at least during rush and mid-day hours. The V could end at 2nd Avenue late nights.
Why isn't this being done?
Quite frankly, service on the F train is inadequate. An MTA which understood the needs of the public would extend the new V train to Church Avenue as a local and run the F as an express to Church Avenue; at least during rush and mid-day hours.
COUGHcar shortageCOUGH
The V could end at 2nd Avenue late nights.
The V won't run at night.
Jeff, there was a regular "F" express service from 1968-75 ish between Jay and Church at peak hrs. The "GG" was extended to Church via. local during those hrs. Then the MTA stopped the services with the excuses of budget cuts (??) and the fact that local stop passengers complained that there was no direct express service into Manhattan. Those tracks WERE ALWAYS OPERABLE!!
Your idea about reviving the "F" express and extending the "V" during rush hours makes lotsa sense!! According to the MTA, there is "F" service TO Manhattan FROM Brooklyn in the AM rush approx every 4 minutes (LOL!! IN FANTASY LAND). So yes, "F" express service is great for the Brooklyn passengers getting on before Church Ave. "V" service from Church would benefit the local stop passengers that predominantly ride into Manhattan anyway. Oh, and not to mention the hordes of passengers that pile on along Houston St, esp.the transferring passengers from the J M Z at Delancey St.--having the "F" and "V" will be double service--and it is needed!! Tony
You're right. Some kind of express service on the F is sorely necessary. Crush loading is not uncommon at Bergen or Delancey.
To repeat stuff that I repeated previously [repeatpp]:
Suffice to say,
Capabilities for _REGULAR_ movements to/from the express tracks were lost when Bergen Tower burned.
>> Suffice to say... Capabilities for _REGULAR_ movements to/from the express tracks were lost when Bergen Tower burned. <<
Never to return? Okay, we all know the Bergen Tower burned (I lived in Carroll Gardens at the time...does that mean I was one of those "loud-mouthed snobs" mentioned in other posts?).
Are you saying that there are no plans to ever restore the functionality lost when it did so? Or just that it hasn't been restored as of yet and that whatever plans there are to do have been "backbunered", so to speak?
How on earth are we ever to believe that the MTA is going to upgrade the entire subway signal system when they can't even resuscitate one tower?
=Rednoise
former Carroll Garden-er
now a Ditmas Park-er
I lived in Kensington and used the 'F' train at 18th Avenue until moving out of Brooklyn in 1990. Local politicians fought for the restoration of 'F' peak Church-Bergen or Coney-Bergen express since it's long-ago elimination in 1975. In 1982-83 the MTA apparently considered restoring express service but nothing ever came of it. In the eyes of the MTA it is now the deadest of dead issues.
>> Never to return? <<
The TA is apparently seeking proposals for a microprocessor interlocking at Bergen.
[...run the F as express to Church Avenue.... Why isn't this being done?]
Frankly, I'd turn only the G at Church; send the V to Kings Highway via local; and let the F run express in the peak direction between Church Avenue and Kings Highway.
However, there are nowhere near enough cars to pull that off. In fact, because of the Manny-B flip, there won't even be enough cars to provide full 15-train-per-hour service on both the V and the R.
(This topic has come up so many times that ALL SubTalkers are FULLY aware of the car shortage by now.)
The prevailing excuse for not being able to provide express service
between Jay St and Church is car shortage. The G would have to
be extended to Church. This would add about 10 minutes each way
to the G schedule and thus require two additional trainsets of
6 cars (of R46) each. OTOH, running the F express between those
points will save about 4 minutes on its schedule. Since the F
runs on something like a 2 minute headway during rush hour, that
means you gain back 4 trainsets on the F. Maybe I'm missing something
Bergen tower is currently fubar, but it is supposed to be the pilot
project for MicroLock computerized vital interlocking equipment.
Hey, Jeff, who makes MicroLock; US&S?
That's a US&S product. I'm not sure who will actually get the
contract.
I'm unclear how it works, does somebody like LK Comstock come in as an installer, or does US&S have their own guys put it in? Probably some of both...
1. Not enough cars exist to do so
2. The Bergen St. tower is still not completely functional.
3. There are other priorities.
The car shortage would not be a problem if the MTA were competent. They are currently buying 1000 new cars for the A division, and 200 for the B. They also plan on scrapping 1000 old A division cars. If they were instead kept and put in service, on the Eastern Division lines, you would have no problem with a shortage of cars. But they will not do this, for the simple reasons that it is logical and efficient.
A division cars are narrow. Feet and small children will fall in the gap between the train and the platform. If you were on the redbird fantrip you know what I mean.
If they put skirts on the A division cars so they can run on the B division, people will attempt to ride outside the cars because they are stupid and do not know better (particularly eastern division riders around 3-4 PM). They (or their family) will sue the MTA for providing a dangerous situation (I couldn't word it any better) should they get injured.
I always say do not give the local lamebrains an opportunity to injure themselves, or else they will take it. Then they will blame you for their stupidity. Only in America.
Remember that article in the Voice about people "surfing" on top of the B-train?
To use the express tracks currently they have to get two guys to the switch and physically move it to the position desired. Then, they have to cover all signals in the area and tie down the trippers. Obviously this takes time and costs money, and is totally out of the question for regular service. If the switches were restored to full functionality, political pressure would get the G and V extended to Church with the F running express on weekdays.
BTW: If the express tracks were used residents at Bergen through 4th ave would demand that the express stop at Bergen (so if the G came first they could take it to the F), particularly since there is an express platform at Bergen st. That would mean a complete station rehab of lower Bergen.
Not necessarily. If the V was making all local stops, and the service were decent, no one would complain that much, if at all.
The way you have to look at it is that there is no lower level Bergen Street station anymore. Also, forget about the G service. That's superfluous. The Park Slope/Carroll Gardens people griped because it didn't go to Manhattan. It'll just be going to Church because it's got to go somewhere.
The House has passed a measure forcing Metro to rename the National Airport Station. Congresswoman Connie Morella (R-MD) spoke this morning on WTOP Radio and implied if this were local action, it would make more sense. She said the $400,000 that will be spent changing the maps, signs, and pylons throughout the system could be spent on better thinks. This measure may not pass through the Senate so the name change can still be blocked.
That's is a total joke. What are the GOPs thinking? It does not make sense to me.
Chaohwa
>>GOPs thinking? <<
Generous query on your part. There is a long tradition in DC politics of Congressional bullying of Washington institutions. Add to this the rather sharp divide over the reputation of the former first vegetable.
Usually naming of public spaces is done after death. (actual--not brain). (transit content) Imagine NY legislature getting its collective noses out of joint and requiring every reference in the subway to Sixth Ave to be replaced!
Usually naming of public spaces is done after death. (actual--not brain). (transit content)
What about the Ted Williams tunnel up in Boston?
you are correct, but I believe this is statistically rare. John Wayne (formerly Orange County) Airport as well as all of the MLK Drives. Blvds, etc.come to mind. All that said this DC business is a very ugly political deal. Congress orders but fails to fund--remember the GOP whine 'unfunded mandates' when the deal was ADA or OSHA safety. Now it is pointless naming BS, unfunded mandates are cool. Right. $400.000 will pay for a couple of extra buses, or alternatively more workers to fix the buses and train cars they already have--need I say a much better expenditure?
>>> I believe this is statistically rare. John Wayne (formerly Orange County) Airport as well as all of the MLK Drives. Blvds, etc.come to mind. <<<
The outstanding example of premature naming was the Richard M. Nixon freeway in Southern California which was opened with great fanfare while Mr. Nixon was still president. It was quietly renamed (and never completed) after he resigned the presidency.
Tom
What do you mean, "former first vegetable"?
"Usually naming of public spaces is done after death."
I don't see what is wrong with naming something after someone who is dying or out of public life if someone is still in public life nothing should be named after them.
There's a very good reason why public buildings/spaces/etc. shouldn't be named for living people - there might be something embarassing or illegal that shows up after the building is named for them. We have a Federal Courthouse that was named for George M. Fallon, a Maryland Rep in the 1950's/early 60's beforehe died. Shorly after the courthouse opened, he was indited,tried and convicted on Federal mail fraud charges (very popular for getting pols convicted). He was fined and placed on probation. Somewhat embarrasing for the Federal Judges - nothing like being tried in a courthouse named for you.
Spiro T also had some facilities named for him during Nixon's days. Whoops.
There's a very good reason why public buildings/spaces/etc. shouldn't be named for living people - there might be something embarassing or illegal that shows up after the building is named for them.
Good point. Let's hope there's not a Gary Condit Federal Courthouse anywhere (never know what you might find under the basement floor ...)
Oh. You are referring to Ronald Reagan. I didn't like him either! The way you said "former first vegetable," I was worried that you were bad-mouthing Hillary Clinton, since she was the former First Lady and is currently in Congress. Sorry about that!
- Lyle Goldman
Nah! Say what you like about our Hil–love her or loathe her!–but vegetable isn’t anywhere near the mark. That lady is one sharp cookie and we haven’t begun to see her make her mark on the Senate yet.
I’m not a great Clinton supporter (either of them) and believe that the country pissed away far too much money going after the trivial (Lewinsky–who cares if she gave him a blow job in the Oval Office?) while ignoring the important: Whitewater. Real people lost their life savings there and the Clintons made money and got off scott free!
Back to the first paragraph!
John
An afterthought: if any senator could get Federal money for all the infrastructure improvements around NYC, I think that Hilary could. Let’s not trash her (completely) until she fails to deliver!
John
Been to Maryland recently? The fanatically egotistical former governor (and current state comptroller) Wm. Donald Schaefer has had numerous buildings and other things named after himself, some while he was still governor. (And the SOB is preparing for another race!) He also had a public garden in Baltimore named for his mother. Several other places in Baltimore were named after living politicians.
The HCFA building in Woodlawn bears the name of former U.S. representative Helen Delich Bentley, a Republican who connived to keep that agency - and its badly-needed jobs - out of the city. (Bentley quit in 1994 to run for governor, but lost the GOP primary to "Smellin' Ellen" Sauerbrey in an upset. Ellen then lost the general election by less than 6,000 votes.)
Most bizarrely, the portion of the Baltimore-Washington Parkway in Anne Arundel County was once named after Gladys Noon Spellman, another Republican pol. Spellman had just won re-election to local office when she suffered a stroke, which made her a vegetable. She never recovered and died some years later; not long after her passing her name was removed from the parkway.
As for ol' Dutch Reagan: remember that GOP operatives plan to compel each and every city and county in America to erect a memorial to the Great Prevaricator, whether they want to or not! This Baltimore boy has the perfect spot for his town. It's somewhere on the east side, near the stables where the street a-rabbers keep their horses. Specifically, a rancid pile of equestrian waste. Which perfectly describes Reagan's administration.
...not long after her passing her name was removed from the parkway.
It's still there on the signs... before my daughter moved from F street out to Layhill (Silver Spring) I drove it on a regular basis.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I forgot to mention that the parkway was renamed for Spellman after she had the stroke, but before she died.
Now, Congress passed a law years ago under which federal monuments would not be built to honor someone until that person has been dead for at least 25 years. Who signed that bill? You got it: Ronald Wilson Reagan.
Most bizarrely, the portion of the Baltimore-Washington Parkway in Anne Arundel County was once named after Gladys Noon Spellman, another Republican pol. Spellman had just won re-election to local office when she suffered a stroke, which made her a vegetable. She never recovered and died some years later; not long after her passing her name was removed from the parkway.
Since when is being a vegetable any obstacle to holding political office?
I'll cut right to the heart of the matter. The Republicans have been smarting for years over things named for Democrats. DC is a Democratic town and hatred for Reagan is widespread.
Whether he was a good or bad or great or terrible president is just a diversion. So is the $400,000. In DC this is hardly an accounting error, and Metro makes these changes whenever there is a new line opened or whatever.
For my own part, I don't believe in naming government things for people. It smacks of the royalism that the U.S. was founded to eliminate. It also sets humans up as iconic figures which tends to stifle debate about their roles in history. Same for national holidays. Same for faces on coinage. Yes, I would remove the faces of Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington from the coinage--and these are all people I admire. Restore allegorical portrayals of Liberty to our coinage, which is the way it was from the founding of the Republic to 1909 anyway.
Actually, Reagan would probably agree with me. I know Washington did. I believe FDR also believed this--his instructions for his funeral specified "no lying in state, anywhere"--but they put his face on the dime almost before his body was cold anyway.
As to DC Metro--they know how dependent they are on political good will, and they hardly keep themselves above politics. I don't know if it was carried out (was it?) but they moved to put those new "Taxation Without Representation" (DC pro-statehood plates) on Metro buses. That is blatantly political, and cost $$$ too.
So, if Congress says "call it Ronald Reagan National Airport Station"--do it. Congress signs the checks.
You hit the nail on the head. Some people in and especially in politics go things for ego purposes and what will be named for them. Look at South Carolina. That state has more named for Strom Thurmond then you can imagine. Yes he has served the state a long time and still gets elected by a large majority but enoung is enough. The losers to these ego trips are the people.
Burn the slow orders
Curt
Look at South Carolina. That state has more named for Strom Thurmond then you can imagine.
Including a "Strom Thurmond Fitness Center" at the University of SC. I suppose being able to rise from a chair unassisted counts as "fitness" by his standards!
Being able to stand up and breathe at 98 sounds like physically fit to me! I hope I can manage it.
". She said the $400,000 that will be spent changing the maps, signs, and pylons throughout the system could be spent on better thinks"
The bill force them to change the signs or just the official name? With such a minor change I don't see any reason to change the signs until they will be replaced anyway.
>>> The bill force them to change the signs or just the official name? With such a minor change I don't see any reason to change the signs until they will be replaced anyway. <<<
Of course the bill is to force the change of the signs. The official name has already been changed. The Republicans are afraid that this might become a new "Avenue of the Americas" fiasco, and want to be sure the Reagan name sticks by getting all the signs changed immediately. Naming the airport after Reagan was their way of thumbing their noses at organized labor (or possibly using the Italian gesture with the quickly upraised fist with the other hand in crook of the arm at the elbow), and they are afraid that a Democratic city government would try to sabotage their moment of gloating by downplaying the new name.
Tom
and they are afraid that a Democratic city government would try to sabotage their moment of gloating by downplaying the new name.
As was pointed out in an earlier thread on this subject, the station name is the responsibility of the local government where the station is located, and Arlington is controlled by Democrats.
Republicans used to say that they didn't believe in the federal government overturning local and state rulings (they still say that), but their actions the last 6 years demonstrate otherwise (medicinal pot, vote counting in Florida, discrimination based on gender preference, et al).
An article in Wednesday's Courier-Post describes the planned festivities for Sunday July 1.
The "old-style railroad cars" the article mentions are cars 401 and 402. If anyone listening here plans to be there, please contact me off-line since I would like copies of photos of the cars. Thanks.
It was quite a shindig! My first mistake was getting there late (just before 7 AM), because the line waiting to get into the anchorage was announced as 3 hours waiting time. I walked up the main (traffic) deck from the Camden side (took PATCO [free] from Lindenwold to City Hall) to the middle of the bridge to see 401 and 402, which had been put in position by motor 404 on the southside track. The support structures between the pedestrian walkway and the PATCO track precluded getting good pictures of the historic bridge train cars (one of which was signed:
Sea Beach Exp
Bowery).
I walked back down and walked to the river at the end of the Tweeter Center parking lot to get telephoto shots of 401, 402, and 404, but they were backlighted. Took the free shuttle bus back to the bridge, walked up the north side pedestrian walkway, (2 hour wait for anchorage tour), and felt the bridge rock as a building was imploded in North Philly.
Got some shots of the MFL and one PATCO train wrong-railing, walked back to Camden from Philly on the main deck, taking in some of the official ceremony on my way.
Took the shuttle bus back to the parking lot for 2 more 401 &c. with slightly better light, getting a ferry in the shot.
Photos are online, click here.
My photos of bridge cars 401 and 401, as well as motor 404, MFL, PATCO, and the North Philly implosion are posted here.
Wow, great pics Chuchubob!
Anyone want to estimate when the MTA will put the service change information on the NYCT webpage?
I would venture a guess and say: August 10, 2001.
It's pathetic. The 63rd St connection is not even indicated in the map provided in the web page. The map is dated June 2000. The paper version of "The Map" has it.
At first glance, not to post a gif of the new map with the 63rd St connector would seem to be just laziness. However, a lot of work went into the map and the imagemap over it that references the station information.
Since the interim map only shows that service might be disrupted in the off-hours, it doesn’t make sense to spend the money on creating the necessary overlays for the web.
I would suspect that we will see a new map on the web come the MB switch on July 22. Either that, or there will be a reference to the new map a few days before.
John
On the other hand, I do fault the MTA. There should be huge notices all over the web site about the MB changes. Has anyone found one?
Not a one. That is why I brought the subject up in the first place.
The MTA website is pathetic. They plaster their URL everywhere but the site is rarely updated in a timely fashion. They're doing a better job with the bus schedules but not with much else. There is near zero feedback on the site. No complaint area, no e-mails of MTA officials, nothing. The websites of NYC agencies are way ahead of the MTA when it comes to info and feedback features. The MTA has had years now to modernize their site. It's hard not believe that they keep the site limited in features as a way to reduce the public's ability to contact them in an easy manner.
I want to know when the knew subway map's coming out.
They might suprise us on that one and have the map out in early to mid-July (it has been done before).
I want to know when the new subway map's coming out.
Today, it's a few more observations on Hours of Service.
Of course after I sent out the original piece, I remembered all the stuff
that I failed to mention. And then after you folks started to receive it, I
was reminded about a few other things. Proving what a well-known former Vice
President once said, "The mind is a terrible thing to lose." And to think,
he was just a heartbeat away from being the leader of the free world.
As for taking four or more hours of rest, I almost completely forgot Metra,
the South Shore, Amtrak and most likely most other commuter railroads. Being
that there is morning and afternoon rush periods, most commuter railroads
use the four or more hour rest period to get you to work both directions
during both morning and evening rush. They have to otherwise more people
would have to be hired. And you think most of them are cash strapped now?
Here is how it works. I go to work on a passenger combination that starts at
say 0530. We initially mark up with the Dispatcher getting any orders and
bulletins we will need for this day. I'll go out and inspect my engine. We'
ll perform any required air test if the mechanical department hasn't
previously handled it. We pull the train out of the yard and position it at
the station and the Conductor and Assistant Conductor will begin to load
passengers. We depart on time (hopefully) and make our run into the big
city.
Upon arrival at the final terminal, we get the passengers off, and either
take the train to the yard, or change ends, get an air test and make a run
back out. If we go to the yard, the train is yarded, power cut off and set
on the fuel track and then we tie up from our morning portion of the trip.
When I worked the Heritage Corridor runs on Metra, this was the procedure.
The Heritage Corridor is the former GM&O, now CNIC Joliet Sub. The run is
between Joliet and Chicago Union Station on Amtrak's Chicago Terminal
trackage.
On Metra's Rock Island District, the run I worked to qualify there
originated at Joliet. We would make a run into Chicago on the former Rock
Island terminating at LaSalle Street. We would change ends, get the air test
and make another run back out to Joliet. We only had about seven or eight
minutes to accomplish this task. We would arrive at Joliet, change ends
again, get another air test, a cab signal test, and get about a twenty
minute break. Then, another run downtown.
Upon our arrival, we would change ends again, cut off the engine and tie it
onto another track and be done for at least four hours. Many of the jobs on
the Rock Island District made runs like this or very similar. There was one
"one tripper," that is a job that only made one round trip the entire day.
You would work in and layover all day, then make a trip home.
The layovers would be anywhere from four to seven hours depending on the
combination or job make up. This allowed you to work over twelve hours in
the total day, but only actually be on duty twelve hours or less.
On the Electric District, there were more "one trippers" than on the Rock
Island District. There were also numerous jobs that made multiple trips.
Those assignments didn't get a four or more break, so the Engineers on those
jobs generally didn't work both morning and afternoon rush trains. They
would get one or the other as well as off peak trips. Sometimes just one
trip, other times two.
The Heritage Corridor trains were all one trippers as there is no off peak
service on this line at this time. The Southwest Line, the former
Wabash/N&W/NS line that Metra leased from Norfolk Southern did have some off
peak service and all the jobs had a "middle trip" as it was called. They
also did a four or more hour break.
The Milwaukee North and West lines also had middle trips and four or more
hour breaks. The Milwaukee North line is the route between Fox Lake, IL and
Chicago Union Station. The Milwaukee West line is the route between Elgin
(and some trains Big Timber) and Chicago Union Station.
The Engineers on the Heritage, Southwest and both Milwaukee lines used to
tie up and lay over at Western Avenue Coach Yard (WACY). We had what was
referred to as "The Mezzanine" for our layovers. There was a television,
chairs and tables, vending machines, a refrigerator, a coffeepot and a
microwave oven. There was also a locker room with shower facilities and a
bunkroom. It was rather spartan compared to the layover room on the Electric
District.
Over on the Electric District we had very comfortable overstuffed chairs
mounted semi circle around the TV. We had cable and a VCR here. The cable
was paid for from all the empty aluminum cans collected around the layover
room. There was also a kitchen area with two microwaves, a toaster oven, a
coffeepot, and a refrigerator. There were tables and chairs and pool table.
And again, there was a bunk room and locker and shower facilities.
We had exercise and workout facilities made available to us for no charge at
Amtrak's Union Station facilities. All we had to do was sign up for the
right to use them.
Amtrak also has jobs that lay over for four or more and then turn back
towards home. Having never worked for Amtrak, I'm not certain as to what
their layover arrangements offer or what their collective bargaining
agreements call for.
The South Shore agreements only allowed Collectors to have "split runs" as
they were called there. The Engineers and Conductors only worked one rush
period. Normally, most of the Collectors used to deadhead home on the 0837
train and then back in for afternoon rush on an early afternoon train,
around 1415 or so if recall correctly. A few would work a train back to
Michigan City and some might work one in during the afternoon.
While at the Wisconsin Central, we started to run loggerheads with the
Division Manage over HOS. I was on a run to Markham on the IC back in 90 and
91. We would get in, yard the train (some days) and go to the hotel. We did
not show our tie up until the arrival at the hotel though, a common
practice. Some nights we had to wait quite awhile for the van that
transported us from the yard to the hotel to arrive. In some cases, we
waited over an hour for the ride. And is some of these cases, while waiting,
we went dead on the hours. This of course meant that we now had to have ten
hours off.
The Division Manager began to harass us in a rather passive aggressive
manner about this situation. He would whine about the fact that our taking
ten hours rest meant the train got out much later the following day and this
was interfering with train schedules, switching the trains when they reached
Fond du Lac and the connections being made there. He started "suggesting" to
us that maybe we should tie up at the IC's Homewood Train Director's office
instead of the hotel.
We resisted this piece of advice. Both Brian Kruger, my Conductor and myself
pointed out on numerous occasions that this would result in our actually
taking part of our rest in the yard instead of the hotel owing to the fact
that we routinely waited for our transportation. It was almost never there
when we were ready for the ride. I pointed out that one evening we waited
about two hours for the van. Had we taken the advice of tying up at
Homewood, we would have spent about two hours of our rest on the property
instead of in the hotel. We figured the FRA would not be pleased with this
arrangement.
Being that we normally got right out on our rest of eight hours, we did not
want to spend a good portion of that waiting on the ride and sitting in the
Train Director's office. I used to joke about the night Train Director at
Markham, Art Gonzales. I said "While I like Art and he is a nice guy, I don'
t want to spend my sleep time with him." Still don't, although on rare
occasion, he works the Desk One Caller position and has to wake me up to
come to work.
Another thing that most company officials don't seem to understand is the
fact that we do not charge right home, dive into bed and go right to sleep.
Contrary to popular belief, we do try to have a life besides the job. Most
of us have families with many having kids they would like to spend some time
with. We also have other interests and also other responsibilities.
I actually had an official on the CNIC tell me that I should "move closer to
work, so that I have much shorter commute and would not have to take rest
whenever I get home." Well let's see now, I live about 21 miles from
Markham. I live about 41 to 51 miles from Glenn Yard depending upon the
route I take to work. And that is based solely upon the traffic situation
and the time of day. I live 47 miles from Kankakee and 82 miles from Gilman,
both of which are in the opposite direction of Markham and Glenn. While I
have the option of having them cab me to Gilman or driving myself, I still
have to drive to Markham should I opt for the cab. Now where exactly is it
that I should move to in order to be centrally located?
Working chain gang pool freight, I may be called to either Markham or Glenn
depending upon the job. Eventually, I may also be called to go on duty at
Hawthorne Yard on the CCP side. This yard is in Cicero. While probably a
mile or two closer than Glenn Yard, it is no easier to reach, especially
during morning or afternoon rush.
And we don't have it so bad. On some railroads, they have more terminals to
protect and they are further apart. In Chicago, Union Pacific has the
terminals on the old MoPac at Yard Center in Dolton and Chicago Heights,
both Southern Suburbs of Chicago. On the former CNW there is Proviso Yard in
Northwest Suburban Melrose Park. They also have Global One, which is on the
West Side of Chicago. Then, there is West Chicago Yard, which is out quite a
ways west of Chicago in an area referred to as the "Super Boonies." Now
where does a younger man or woman on the seniority totem pole live to cover
all of this?
Or do they just sleep in the car so that they are ready to hit the road and
head to wherever as soon as the phone rings? Maybe this is what the carriers
are seeking. With this approach, you don't need a house, certainly won't
have a family and will not be obligated to do anything but work as you'll
have no life at all. And being that they're living in their cars, they will
have no permanent address, so they won't be able to register to vote. And
you know what that means..
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
I recall this being discussed a long while ago, but I don't recall a definitive conclusion. The end route markers on the R-142/142-A are made up of light emitting diods (LEDs). It was my understanding that such LEDs usually emit red when the DC current flows in one direction and red when the current is reversed. That sounds perfect for the IRT: red for the West Side and green for the East Side. LEDs of other colors, it was said, are more expensive.
However, the new trains running on the 6 have the "6" in red. Did the TA not design in this color choice? Are R-143s going to be red as well? I would have thought that they would have tried to design end and side electronic signage that could have the route designations in the correct color. This seems a small request given all of th eother new technology on the trains.
Any thoughts?
Not all red LEDs are bipolar LEDs. The interior LEDs are bipolar. In addition these same LEDs, when fed AC can display yellow (red+green=yellow).
I haven't the slightest clue how full color LEDs work. Maybe they're tripolar?
They have 3 anodes (one for each primary color) and the one cathode (for the reverse cathode). The circuit applies the current to whichever anode is necessary to mix the color being made. Most full color signs you see now use combinations of red-only, green-only and blue-only diodes (A slightly cheaper option).
The red only is favored now because of its brightness (it is very orangeish. The orange-yellow-green range is the most visible). It is the same used in the new "don't walk" hand symbol signs going up in Queens.
and how come the Kawasaki has a brighter vivid red than the endsign on the Bombardier?
Just guessing here...Different manufacturers, maybe?
Peace,
ANDEE
they were both made by telecite. i don't understand why ones is brighter/vivid and the other is bolder/sharper. even on the inside the signs in the kawasaki is brighter than in the bombardier. i am coming to assume that the glass is tinted on one and not the other. or they were made of different specifications by the same manufacurer.
>>>....or they were made of different specifications by the same manufacurer.
<<<
You may have hit the poverbial "nail on the head"...
Peace,
ANDEE
I recall this being discussed a long while ago, but I don't recall a definitive conclusion. The end route markers on the R-142/142-A are made up of light emitting diods (LEDs). It was my understanding that such LEDs usually emit red when the DC current flows in one direction and red when the current is reversed. That sounds perfect for the IRT: red for the West Side and green for the East Side. LEDs of other colors, it was said, are more expensive.
However, the new trains running on the 6 have the "6" in red. Did the TA not design in this color choice? Are R-143s going to be red as well? I would have thought that they would have tried to design end and side electronic signage that could have the route designations in the correct color. This seems a small request given all of th eother new technology on the trains.
Any thoughts?
I DID click once! I guess my computer hiccupped! :)
There is an apparent typo in your post, it say ). <> i guess you ment "green when the current is reversed".
In any event, that would be a very good idea. I too feel that for all the money spent and technology incorporated into the new cars this is a small and resonable request. After all, the roll signs which we like and the TA apparently does not did have color for the route markers. When not these much more expensive models??????
I would hope the B division cars would work in the various colors.
Bill
Came into town to run around a bit....Some quickies:
1] Among others,rode on a 5 with a Redbirds in the 7700's [sorry no exact #]by ACF..are these the oldest remaining cars in the system?? How long before they are fish bait? BTW..hit 46 between 86th& 59th!!!!
2] Coming down Lex saw a 142 on the 6, so I did the quick change at GC-My FIRST 142..sigh....Quick eval: Not Bad...smoooooth...BRIGHT...COLD...The announcements/worked OK..can see where that 'door closing' guy is gonna be real ANNOYING..they should've gotten Harry [the great,retired CR from the 1] to do the station announcements! I truly think those who think they are slow, arent looking OUT..although lets see one on an express run....
3] The Bergen tunnel thing seems to be working OK..Came home on the infamous 4:05-the schedule which had the derail last week..heard al the 'war stories' including guy who actually ducked into the can before getting off after the accident!!..PLUS-whe we leaving Suffern the engineeer suddenly braked hard...but then went on..the conductor comes and says...."We just almost hit a backhoe on the tracks!!!!!" There was a GOOD laugh about THAT!!
1] Among others,rode on a 5 with a Redbirds in the 7700's [sorry no exact #]by ACF..are these the oldest remaining cars in the system?? How long before they are fish bait? BTW..hit 46 between 86th& 59th!!!!
The lowest numbered car is 7750 (actually it's 1301, but we all know that can't be the oldest!).
That sounds pretty close........
I just missed 7750 a couple of weeks ago -- It was pulling out at 125th St. headed downtown on the 5 as we were pulling in on the 6 (R-142 7405) after a day trip to City Island. Since the 6 was the afterschool special coming through the Bronx (I was really, really hoping the new end doors would snare one loudmouthed girl), any other train at all -- even a 42 year old Redbird with or without strong AC -- would have been more enjoyable than that.
Did you say 7405? Is it in service?
-Stef
That's the number I saw, which I remembered because 8605 was the car I rode from 177th-Parkchester up to Pelham Bay Park (BTW, the AC was actually better on the R-29 than it was on the R-142, but both were way better than the weak-assed cool air the R-36 WF I was on from GC to 177th St. was putting out)
Workers voted 35-4 to strike if a contract is not accepted.
Story in Jersey Journal.
>>>...a spokeswoman for Washington Group International Inc., <<<
I was under the impresssion that the "DBOM"* contract ws held by the Raytheon Corporation.
Peace,
ANDEE
*Design Build Operate Maintain
NJT's website says the contractor is 21st Century Rail Corporation. Click here to see NJT's FAQ page on HBLR.
Raytheon's part of 21st Century is now run by Washington Group International (click here to visit the applicable page at their website)
Just explored Washington Group's site. What a mess!!!! Last year, the company bought the Raytheon subsidiary involved in HBLR for $53 million in cash plus the assumption of $450 million in debt, based on unaudited financial statements, subject to an adjustment when the audited financials were finished. Now, the company has filed for reorganization under Chapter 11 and sued Raytheon, claiming that they were defrauded to the tune of $700 million.
Under the proposed reorganization, the company continues to operate as before, the share holders get wiped out, the secured creditors own the company, and trade creditors get paid. Payment to holders of unsecured debt securities depends on the results of the case against Raytheon.
Fun and games.
Because of insufficient record keeping, 17 of Metro's CAF cars will have their wheels and alxes replaced. Safety standards dictate that the pressure used to apply the wheels to the axles at time of manufacture be recorded and become a permanent part of the cars' record. Such records were not kept until CAF became aware of the mandate.
Washington Post story
6586-90 and 6596-6600 were running in service as of this afternoon.
-Stef
Stef,
How many R142A sets are in operation on the Pelham at this point?
Based on what I have seen (and been trying to keep track of) I guess about 12 sets.
Last I checked, cars 7221-7370 were in service, for a total of 150 cars or 15 sets. I have no info on Cars 7371-7410 right now, but they may be in service.
-Stef
"I have no info on Cars 7371-7410 right now, but they may be in service."
They are not in service. They are still gathering dust at Unionport, waiting for somebody to inspect them and give them the OK for maneuvers to Westchester. Then they will sit there gathering more dust until all the rest of the perennial glitches are worked out.
today on Saturday June 30 a ten car transfer of R 142a came around BB loop I think I saw 7425 on end of consist. I was held at Canal st s/b with the 1245 Pelham bay while the transfer went from 2 to 1 track to go around loop.
Thanks. So far I have only seen thru 7360. I "eagerly" await 7361-7370
You won't have to wait much, as 7361-70 are already there. I spotted these last week on the way up into Pelham.
-Stef
Allan don't forget the 7421-7430 i saw that train simulator on lex ave couple weeks ago.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
I saw that one too but it was in the Unionport Yard.
I don't want to count any until they actually get into regular service.
Let's also add to the operating roster, 6591-95 and 6601-05 as of today.
6606-10 are on the property an d are in test mode right now with 6501-05.
Next up to the operating roster: 6501-05 and 6606-10.
-Stef
Also with the R142A's
7371-7400 are doing Road Sim Test
Did you see 7401-10 on your journeys? It may have gone over to Westchester Yard, but I'm not really sure at this point.
-Stef
7401-7410 is sitting at the unionport/E. 180th yard. you can see it passing on the 2 line going towards wakefield.
The redbird consist at Hoyt Street is made up of the following:
8675 8674 8626 8627 8601 8600 8636 8637
The NYPD Emergency service unit was using it for training of some sort. Two officers were in car 8636 and two more were outside, reaching under it. There was also a 'dummy' and equipment cases on the platform. This was at 13:30 today (Wednesday).
These are the first #6 Redbirds to be scrapped!
Chaohwa
No!! The first Pelham Redbirds are at 207St Yard getting scrapped as I type this. Also being scrapped is Redbirds from the 5 line.
I stopped by the Transit Museum today and they now have pins for each line (as they are right now - There is no V or W and the Q is orange background).
The pins are the circle versions only. They measure about an inch in diameter and are enamel on metal.
They also have ones for the MTA logo, the MetroCard, the LIRR (the Dashing Dan symbol), and others. The MTA one is a relief enamel on metal (that is, it not "flat")
Each pin is $2.50 each (add $.21 sales tax). Each pin comes indivually "wrapped" in a plastic case (approx 1 1/4" X 1 1/4")
Get your subway route symbol (and of course the entire set).
I don't know if the store in Grand Central has them yet (although I would not be surprised if they did by now).
It would be nice in a historical way if they had the "retired routes " as well. Say, the "GG" or the "QP" "AA" "CC"
Always wishin' for more!
avid
Never heard of any subway route called the "QP". Do you mean "QJ"? Or "QB" or QT"?
:-) Andrew
Me neither, yes any of the following QJ, QB, or QT. The retired numbered lines as well. 12, 13, 14, 15. The only thing is these OLD designations were all Black and White.
avid
You say they have pins for every route? Great!
That is an improvement over the t-shirts, which were produced only for certain routes. They never made a J train shirt, for example.
As an aside regarding those t-shirts, I found myself completely stymied when I tried to find shirts representing the two lines closest to my home in Woodhaven -- the J and the A.
As mentioned above, there was no J shirt at all. And the A train shirt contained a big mistake: it said "Manhattan to Brooklyn" instead of "Manhattan to Queens". So, no shirts for me.
Actually, those shirts shouldn't have had *any* of those "destinations" on them. The shirts would have been much sharper with just the route symbol.
Anyway, I'll bet the pins look great. Thanks for the heads-up. I will be sure to pass by the Museum to pick mine up.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I was there yesterday, they're pretty cool looking, except everything there seemed to be a tad expensive compared to what's listed on the museum website (no wonder you can't order online) The pins did not have prices on them or else i might have bought a D-train pin, but after i asked for the prices of the ties and tins and some of the caoster sets I was afraid to ask anymore. I would've bought a D-train shirt, but they only had children's sizes. Next trip i'll try grand central.
Hey alan You were there yesterday???? what time were you there??? I was there from about 11-12:30. I had a beard and glasses and was carrying a backpack. If you were there i was also the one who accidentally dropped the snowdome after i put it down to look at the magnets. (oops!!) The staff there was really cool about it. I was more than willing to pay for it, but they wouldn't let me.
I was there about 11:50. I had just stopped in to the store to see what was new. I only stayed about 15 minutes.
I was in a gray suit with gold tie.
The price is $2.50 per pin (add $.21 cents sales tax)
There is a store on the corner of Broadway and Astor place in Manhattan. They seel Hats and shirts with the route symbols on them. They have a J train shirt (I bought one) as well as others. The hats are much better that the ones that the Museum sells.
Marc
Perhaps but are they "Officially Licensed" by the MTA?
No. I doubt it...
But I don't feel badly about buying them because they are of better quality and variety than the ones that the Museum sells. I have spent a lot of money at the Museum as well, so I have supported them. I have 30 of those number plates from the trains for example...
I was at GCT yesterday, checked out that typewriter exhibition in Vanderbilt Hall, and went to the TM store. The pins are there. They should make some for all bullets that appear on the rollsigns (JFK Express, W-diamond, Y, etc).
What color is the "Y"?
:-) Andrew
Y do you ask?
Seriously, the Y is a black letter on a white background and is only a spare letter designation.
OK. So they could use it on the Franklin shuttle as a skip stop with the S. That'll be a laugh!
:-) Andrew
Whoops! You said black letter on a white background. Hmmm. Still make it a Franklin skip-stop!
;-D Andrew
Makes more sense than a 42nd Street shuttle skip-stop!
isnt the black letter on white background bullit suppose to be the Second ave line colour code?
I wouldn't know.
All I know is that all of the spare letters on the bottom roll sign on the R32's & R38's have the black on white motif.
In case you're wondering, they're P, T, U, X, and Y.
Well, there is a "Y"-cut token pin :)
Hmmmmmm, lets see. $2.50........multiplied by..........equals........
Hope they take AMEX!
Actually, they don't take AMEX. My "Blue" wasn't welcome there. I just stopped by the GCT store and bought the "Q" pin. I see it as an investment for the future. My next project will be to buy my name: BR1AN
Well, thanx for the tip. I'm going to go to the TM and buy every pin available. This way I'll have every pin on the NYCTA and the London Underground (smirk).
Thank god for my trusty 10% employee discount. I'm gonna need it.
I'll have to wait until November for my name.
Do they have any combined 1/9 or J/Z pins, like the combined bullets that were placed on existing displays when the 9 and Z were born?
No, The 1, 9, J, Z are each individual pins (just like they are individual on the roll signs)
That's great ! I'll stop by tomorrow to pick up the B, D, Q and of course F lines.
1. What type of rectifying equipment is in all those PATCO substations? Is it Hg-arc tubes or Silicon Diode Rectifiers.
2. How fast do express trains run through stations? Do they keep it at 65 or something lower? Do the drivers have to switch to manual mode?
I haven't ridden an express lately, but when I rode PATCO every day, the expresses went through the stations at speed, and the ATO knew it was an express train.
The driver has a stop cancelation button. Presumablely he would hit it anytime after passing the first station transponder.
Hey, I'm free next week anytime for a trip to CP Jersey. Any time from Monday to Friday.
Sounds like you have the summer off. Lucky you!!!!
Chuck Greene
Only until the 8th when I have to go back to Connecticut for an internship thing. But even then I get 3 day weekends.
You sound pretty busy. Maybe some day you, me & Chu-ChuBob can get some railfanning in. Isn't there supposed to be another event in Philly in the near future sponsored by some club?
Chuck Greene
I was railfaning this afternoon on the #7 line & took some pictures along the line. I got on R33WF#9323 & the fans were on & I was the only one on board that train all windows were open & both end doors were open. Almost nobody ride these R33WF Single trains because no A/C during early summer like now. Ain't they going to rest this summer @ Corona Yard? When will they take them out of service this week or next week?
Are u the asian girl that was taken pics at Qweensboro plaza?
I was on that line taking a vid of the & coming into Qweensboro and took additial pics on the line with my digital cam. I took pics and vid up to shea and couldn't take any more because it was filled with other pics and vids from stillwell.
no I am a guy
opps sorry. Well she was fine. how do you post a pic on this board
So you got the big spell put on you too? Watch out for the dragon clips, they're gonna get you!
John--an girl railfan, and asian at that...Sounds perfect for you! Keep your eyes open on the #7! (Don't you love sundress season?) Oops, gotta go. Here comes my wife!...
:O)
opps sorry. Well she was fine. Got her in that pics. how do you post a pic on this board
HOLD IT! BACK UP! - an ASIAN girl who's a RAILFAN on the #7 TRAIN???
QTRAINDASH7, LOOKOUT!!!!!! ;-)
I'm on high alert. :-) The mystical girls are coming out, with their sundresses and dragon clips, they're gonna put a big spell on you! :-)
I'm on high alert. :-) The mystical girls are coming out, with their sundresses and dragon clips, they're gonna put a big spell on you! :-)
Dragon clips?
Yup they are "nicknamed" because they are large hairclips mystical girls wear. I don't know what it is but they get you (your attention that is)
I saw AT LEAST 8-10 R-142As on the 6 line today. I think they're running them on the local to Parkchester, too. Means the Flushing line may have 62s soon!
Not soon enough for you people siffering over there. You'll have to wait for the 7500's to get to Westchester before the R-62As move.
Saturday we saw NINE carsets of new equipment; eight were full sets of R142A; one was split R142/R142A. They're phasing them in quick. AND over on the #2 I saw a carset in the high 6500's - I think it was #6576-6585. Wasn't expecting to see numbers that high so soon.
wayne
how many of them were dead on arrival ?? & or breakin' down ??........he he he he he .....LOL !!!
All you have are negative comments! Give it a rest, Sallaamallah!
New technology is here to stay. Just give them time to get the bugs ironed out!
Chuck Greene
Some people never change.... I pay homage to the birds just to have someone make some foolish comments, that's ok with me. I'd hope I'd have some serious reaction.
-Stef
Keep up the good work, Stef! You are a true transit buff and know your stuff. I get a lot of knowledge reading your posts and know you are telling us what's up! The Redbird's were great trains, now it's time for their farewell.
Chuck Greene
yes new tech is ready to 'breakin' on down ......nice post !!
I got on Redbird 9056 today. The car was HOT, that is no air. All the passenger doors were open as well as the storm doors. The crew were just hanging out, talking to the public. We figure we will be stuck here till July 8.
Almost forgot. I was on the Mall in Washington DC during the first day of the Smithsonian Folklife fest. I'll get the photos up on my AOL FTP site later.
Virginia Division - BMT
LOL! Mwahahahahahahahaha. Good one. Let us know how fast the Redbird gets up to on a straightaway! At least one beloved redbird that will be remembered. What model is the 9056? I have to look it up. I think it's a R36.
Yep, you're sure find at least one Redbird with A/C that doesn't work on every ten-car train. By the way, I'll remember 8912 for getting a burnt-out motor in the Clark St Tunnel five years ago. Like 8912, 9056 is a Mainline R33.
I can also remember #8912 as being part of that pile-up at the Wakefield Yard lead back on February 3, 1998. It was the 5th car in the #2 train IIRC
wayne
Here is my URL to the photos I shot today. Enjoy
http://member.aol.com/philiphom
Did you metion to any of the Smithsonian people there touting the car as having come from the No. 7 line that odds are 9056 (which I think is an R-33, BTW) never spent a day on the Flushing Line in its life?
Not quite up there with the Smithsonian finding a forgery in its portrait gallery, but the people there do like to be historically accurate when they can.
"Not quite up there with the Smithsonian finding a forgery in its portrait gallery, but the people there do like to be historically accurate when they can."
Agreed. Two other points:
The front sign said #1. IIRC, the Redbirds have not seen regular service on that line in a long time; I assume since the R62A's arrived a long time ago.
The front destination sign is for the "2" line.
Hmmm. The car was purported to be from the #7, it said #1, and was following the route of the #2. No wonder it ended up in D.C.! :)
When I visited the Mall this evening, the rollsigns showed #7 rollsigns on two sides and the front of the car.
Chaohwa
Does it still have knobs on the inside so people can play with the rollsigns :)? It was on NY1 this morning; one end was set to 1, the other to 2, one side to 5, the other side to 7 Local, and destinations were all E 241 St-Flatbush Ave, quite a reroute for the 7 :).
I visited there Saturday and Sunday. A lot of kids were playing the side rollsigns. After they finished playing the rollsigns, I usually turned them back to #7 rollsigns.
Chaohwa
To be really accurate, at least for car 9056, I think you should have turned them to:
241st St. White Plains Rd
Flatbush Ave.
2 - 7th Ave. Express
At one instant I tried to do that. However, since the head signs showed "7" and "Main Street Flushing", and it was very hard to open the device to change the head rollsigns, I thought it would be better to stay where it was.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
What time does the Redbird/ MTA bus exhibit close ? I should be there Thursday.
Bill "Newkirk"
Car #9056 probably has never seen a day in Queens; the only R33 cars that frequent the Flushing #7 line are the Singles (#9306-9345). It's more likely that #9056 has seen recent service on the #2 line; or maybe it was one of the 20 or so R33 that ran out of Pelham.
wayne
When I was there it was signed for the #7 line. It should've been displaying #2 or #5 line signs since it operated on those lines for so many years. I really thought the TA would've send a WF R-33 to DC.
Wayne
I agree with you. It is weird to see Car #9056 showing #7 roll signs on the Mall.
Chaohwa
I was just back from visiting Redbird Car #9056. The rollsigns showed #7's. The whole car and the number plate were repainted. I did not see any scratches on the windows.
It's kind of weird to see a NYC Subway car without scratches.
Chaohwa
I spoke to the train crew. These guys and gal are great NYCT workers and railfans. They are aware the Smithsonian advertised a Flushing car, but the NYCT gave them a mainline IRT (Who came up with that idea?). A non-New Yorker would not know the difference and could not care less. However for the Smithsonian to say it's a Flushing Line car is like saying the Southern Ps4 Pacific is a NYC Hudson.
Virginia Division - BMT
Now you know what our parents and grandparents whent thru back in the 1960s and back especially the pre world war 2 era !!
the low vs and high vs !! But at least the did not BELLYACHE and they did not COMPLAIN and they did not WHINE ....
about not having any AC !!!!!!!!
as long as the cars were MOVING ... who needed A/C at 50 MPH with the storm door windows dropped and the sashes down? Well ... it helped a little. :)
While railfanning on the N, I saw a railfan(pink shirt) taking video of the train coming to the station. Anyone on this message board was there today.
The N train will be shot from end to end this fall by me on a 5 hour video !! cannot wait !!
Isn't 5 hours kind of long for a video? Are you going to talk about the stations and the history of the line?
I don't see why he'd need five hours to shoot the N from end to end unless he expects some major delays.
Should I haul my ass now I hear on Monday to 14th and 8th? Is anyone sure? I just want to have a second word...
Only if you're certain of what it is you're going for...
????????????
Heh whoops, for the debut of the R143 train in revenue service...
A/C/E service was thoroughly confused this afternoon rush hour due to a building collapse (?). At least going downtown, the E was running on the R and the A and C were running local to W4 and then via the F to Jay. I was on the second A to be sent back on its regular route (it should have been the first, but we waited so long at W4 on the local track to figure out where we were going that another A got in front of us on the express track). Just my luck: if I had crammed onto the C that came a few minutes before the A I took, I would have seen the Rutgers tube through a railfan window for the second time (the first was on a rerouted Q).
Here is every reroute I saw / heard (scanner):
1. C - 2 Uptown trains switched to 6th ave upon leaving Spring st, ran express from W4 to 34 on the local.
2. Southbound A taken OOS at W4th express track and reversed in the relay at Chambers.
3. All A and Cs sent via Rutgers in both directions.
4. E - One train (mine) was sent via Rutgers to Jay (2nd ave switches OOS for replacement) and then up the Fulton st. Express to Euclid. They should have sent us to Smith-9 or Church, shorter run and I would have been able to see daylight from an E train, but they didn't. Train returned in service as the 1750 Extra Echo out of Euclid (Fulton Express), we got switched onto 6th ave at Jay and stayed there until 47-50.
5. F - Several trains sent via crosstown to alleviate Rutgers.
6. C - After service was restored, alternating Cs used Rutgers due to a 5 MPH restriction around Chambers.
7. E - One train went to Lefferts! I think, I heard the 1745 Echo out of there being called, but I may have misheard.
8. Es via Broadway (some turned at Canal) and Fs via Crosstown went local from the Plaza to Roosevelt. A police investigation at Continental caused trains to be tossed all over upon leaving there.
YOU have entirely too much free time!!!
I was on my way home, and was only planning on riding that E to 2nd ave. When it went further, I figured I go until the end, and happened to notice other things along the way. I would have taken a bus from Rockaway Blvd if it were not to head back in service, so I did. I got home two hours late and had to make my own dinner.
And this will be the last summer I have any free time, may as well enjoy it before I get kicked out by my parents and have to work for a living.
What model scanner do you have? You seem to be able to hear nearly all subway transmissions quite well from what I gather from your posts. With my scanner the only division I can get is the BMT and even that is very sketchy...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I have the cheap, $48 Uniden scanner. I can only hear the IND while in the subway, I can catch the BMT Eastern Division and Flushing/Astoria lines, and some IRT from home (in Rego Park) in addition to in the subway. Mine is almost as good at receiving as the portables the TA guys use, but nowhere near as good as the ones mounted in the cabs (Franklin shuttle) or in the towers.
161.190 for IRT , 161.505 for BMT , 161.565 IND, I won't list any yard or utility freqs. because there are too many, I have a few scanners, but my Radio Shack Pro-74 recieves all MTA freqs. quite fine, not to mention transit police as well since they operate on the same BAND.
Well said Scanhead!! You da man SEVEN-UP!
Hey marty was the graffiti movement a BOWEL movement? or was it a culture movement? You are media, you elaborate
While a reroute is no pleasure, the various interconnections present in the NYCT system allow great flexibility and allows train service instead of shuttle bus service.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Couldn't agree more. The IND seems to have more interconnections than the other two divisions, and if it seems like overkill, they sure do come in handy when something like this happens.
I spotted E at BWay-Lafayette local heading to Brooklyn while taking Q/B to CI, then coming back on F I saw another one on Culver (to CI) and another one at Jay towards Manhattan.
Arti
Here's the deal. Someone gets attacked at the South end of the Northbound Queens Plaza platform. The assailant (female w/10 Y/O child) is reported to have boarded a southbound E (1809 out of Canal/Broadway) on the local track, the car number is given. The tower does not ask this train to call in until several minutes later, after it has made several stops. The train contined to make stops and then switched express at Roosevelt. Police were called to meet it at 71/Continental. The conductor is told to open the doors there and wait for police. During this time, trains are being sent around via the local, and the first E arrives at continental on the local several minutes later, obviously everyone on the 1809 changes for that train and leaves the station. The train is still held, 30 minutes total, while I am in the 1750 Echo Euclid right behind, with a Fox out of Kings Highway behind me.
Here are the blunders:
1. The assailant's location was given when everyone knew exactly where she was. The train still was allowed to continue making stops, exponentially increasing the chance of her escape.
2. Police were not called at Roosevelt, the station with the police (command center?) directly above at the abandoned terminal station.
3. The conductor specifically asked if he should open up at Continental, and was told to do so, and with all the trains moving down there it would have to be a pretty dumb assailant to have remained aboard while "Transit Police to the Northbound Express track" was being blurted through the station PA.
Sounds like something i heard a week or 2 ago on my scanner - someone grabbed a ladies bag at 75th av - the perp ran into the tunnel. finally, perhaps 20 minutes later, they got to and checked out the emergancy exit btw 71st and 75th - where they found the bag with the money gone.
c'mon... who are these rookies? how hard is it to know that if someone robbed someone and ran into a tunnel with little space to hide from passing trains (during the early evening no less), that they'd be heading for the emergancy exit?
I can only hope this was an exception, and not the rule of how they operate.
It is illegal in NY State (and elsewhere) to reveal anything heard on a scanner - especially anything police related. So if you want to mention what you might have heard at least don't state that you heard it on a scanner.
He is right Joe, one of the rules of Monitorinng as it is called, is that You cannot reveal the information you heard and cannot use it for any purpose.
Just out of curiousity, who is the authority responsible for this law?
Peace,
ANDEE
On the federal side - the FCC and the FBI.
On the stste side - that State Police
Not even to makes jokes about them clowns in yonkers? =) hehehe!
But isn't that how crime beat reporters know which stories to cover?
hi Ron, Any devolopment on the 2nd Ave project?
I see nothing in the rule (as stated in this thread) which would prohibit anyone from doing anything -- except revealing the contents of the transmission -- as a result of hearing the transmission. So long as the article only reports on information gathered in ways other than listening to the radio, I don't see the problem.
Im reading this directly out of the Book "Police Call" form Radio Shack about the hobby of monitoring and I quote "...according to strict FCC rule, one cannot reveal any information obtained using a monitoring device eg. Scanner.."
SeveN just bought a Pro - 79 today at Radio Shack, cost $140.00. Looked for a 70 none in stock. Dam thing tough to get use to. My last model a Pro 30.
This one big power I can scan CSX from Washington to about 1 mi. before Richmond. Can pick up all mainline info. train to dispatch & reverse. But its hell to get use to. I'am midway between Wash. & Rich. A mile from the main line.
Former RF&P..
SeveN just bought a Pro - 79 today at Radio Shack, cost $140.00. Looked for a 70 none in stock. Dam thing tough to get use to. My last model a Pro 30.
This one big power I can scan CSX from Washington to about 1 mi. before Richmond. Can pick up all mainline info. train to dispatch & reverse. But its hell to get use to. I'am midway between Wash. & Rich. A mile from the main line.
Former RF&P..
Go figure. Thanks for letting me know... who knew?
So let's see. In that area the IND is on 2 levels. D1, D2, D3, and D4 tracks upstairs and D-5, D-6, D-7 & D8 downstairs. The perp went into the tunnel at 75th Ave. Which way did he go? North, South Down and north, down and south? Did he run into the Jamaica yard Portal or into one of the numerous abandoned rooms or nooks down there? Did he come back up on D-9 or D-10 tracks? Where are all the emergency exits? I suppose you'd know all this. I guess that you would have all the balls in the world and go running into the tunnel, waving your gun and catch that bastard before he dodged his first train. It's easy to have big balls when you're sitting home and listening to your scanner. If it's so easy, why aren't you wearing the blue instead of livin' the fantasy?
Train Dude, I happen to know a bit about Joe, I have no doubt in my mind that joe would hesitate running into tunnels, Right Joe ;
...perhaps some slight hesitation before hopping in. i've always hated 3rd rails and the like.
Your point is well taken.
Actually, I would think the train crew's first responsibility is to do everything possible to maximize passenger safety. If a suspect got off the train, so be it - the important thing from the T/O point of view is no one else gets hurt.
I'd want to catch this person too, but if a positive ID is made and detectives roust him/her from bed, then that's a good resolution- and no one else was around to get hurt.
A robbery detective once told me the police will often stay away from a bank holdup, and wait until the crooks finish up their business and leave. This way, the police can confront them on preferred terms - isolated in a parking lot, or trapped in a roadblock, minimizing the number of nearby bystanders.
yeesh.
a)yes, there are 5 billion directions he coulda went in - they knew he was going from 75th towards 71st though, and a safe bet is he'd be looking for an exit, fast.
b) i'd certainly hope transit cops know where the emergancy exits are, as well as the local FDNY and EMS crews, just in case they're needed. (how does transit work though? do officers roam large sections of the system per tour? if so it's quite a bit more understandable)
c)no one said it was easy... it was, however, a seemingly laxidasical response.
d)i've considered it in the past, but the money starting out isn't any good. something outta be done about that...
"i'd certainly hope transit cops know where the emergancy exits are, as well as the local FDNY and EMS"
Well, I have a book dating back to 1981 that details the location of every emergency exit - all 458 of them - not including 63rd St. or Archer Avenue. How many should they have to memorize to pass their final exam.
the ones in their area of patrol - or at the least they should have that guide book handy in the car, no? call me nuts but it would seem rather important to know if there's ever an accident, etc.
yeah, it's a lot of info, but lots of professions involve memorizing lots of facts that will rarely be needed. I'd bet there are people on this board that know where every emergancy exit in many tunnels are, even if they've never had to use one.
I wonder if a day will come when cops are outfitted with little palm-pilot units that hold this and more information that could be useful? It'd certainly be easier to show someone how to dial up the info there instantly than for anyone to have to remember all them locations.
It's easy to have big balls when you're sitting home and listening to your scanner.
It's also easy to be condescending and abrasive when you're at home siting in front of a computer.
Some months ago I was on a Manhattan-bound E on the overnight when the T/O started sounding the horn for police assistance. This started at Queens Plaza and continued at every station. At 5th Avenue, he apparently woke up someone in the tower, who wandered out and said "Whaddya want, the cops?" and the T/O answered "yes". The sounding continued at every stop until Canal, where the train was met by police.
[2. Police were not called at Roosevelt, the station with the police (command center?) directly above at the abandoned terminal station.]
Not a "command center" but a precinct, or "District" in NYPD Transit Bureau parlance. As all SubTalkers should know by now, that office was moved several years ago to the mezzanine at Briarwood/Van Wyck.
I should know, I see it every day on my way to school! I didn't know it was the same one...
If you haven't realized by now TA is only concerned with uninterupted service. I have been witness to plenty of situations where an emergency response was needed and was told to "SIGNAL ENROUTE". These include someone lighting fires in a car, and a person having a heart attack.
Oh I'm sorry I thought an "Officer needed assistance!"
My mistake.
see how fast and how many come. The solid Blue wall!
avid
Remember Kids.....When reporting a 10-13 the most important thing is Location Location Location, BTW 10-13 is unit in need of assistance
You want a story about the solid blue wall. Here it comes:
About a year ago, I walk into the station at 145th and St. Nick. looking to get a n'bnd D express. Instead, I find cruisers all over the street and all over the station, from the mezzanine on down. When I get to the Concourse line level (bottom), there are about half as many cops as there are passsengers (which there are plenty). I also see a n'bnd B stuck right outside the station, just over the switiches, with activity in the motorman's cab. Then the T/O pulls it in slowly to the "10" and stops. I'm at the center of the platform at this point. Then I see what was going on. Three kids, two boys and one girl, all bet. 13 and 16, are led out in 'cuffs. The cops were telling us to stand back while they were led outside the train. I asked a lady at the phone nearby, and she told me that those kids had just slashed a guy on the n'bnd A at 125th, and tried to make their escape on the local.
A whole bunch of not - so - smart moves by those youths. First, they slash a guy for a not - so - important reason. Then, instead of escaping to the street, they try to escape on a local train. Third, they did so in the center of the local train. And finally, only two stops down from the NYPD Transit Bureau at 145. All that got them lock - up for the night.
>>The train is still held, 30 minutes total, while I am in the 1750 Echo Euclid right behind, with a Fox out of Kings Highway behind me.<<
Echo Euclid? Fox? What's going on here?!?!
Ok, I know that "Fox" is the F train. I've heard people on this board say this other times. I'm guessing that "Echo" is an E train.
But why Echo Euclid?
And, what are the radio codes for other train lines? (Assuming that these are indeed radio codes)
The "codes" you are referring to are Call Letters. They consist of the military time of departure and the origin station. If the origin has multiple lines, the route designation is also used. Route designations:
Apple
Bravo
Charlie
Delta
George
Jay
L(?)
Mary
November or Nancy (both are used)
Quincy
Romeo
Shuttle
Z(?)
In the IRT the source and destination are used (ie: 1440 Dyre-to-Flat).
The E on its trip southbound was sent to Euclid because of the Chambers st. problem. So it originated there on its return trip north. I didn't give the full call letters, it was 1750 Extra Echo Euclid, extra I think is used in cases of unscheduled departure.
Thanks
A few other things, if a train goes out of service early for any reason it looses call letters and is usually referred to as "light train" or "the original (last known call letters)". If it goes back in service later, it gets call letters from wherever it first takes passengers (ie: the original 1430 Astoria becomes the 1520 Extra DeKalb).
Not quite. A train that has gone out of service and is running light keeps it's call letters until it has reached a yard or has been placed back into service.
Example: Control Center, come in for the 1448 Delta Bedford running light.......
The J and Z are called only by their letter.
The L is sometimes called the "Larry", but more often than not, it's just plain ol' L.
(J train is correct) I should have gone back to the original posting sooner. You are going to tell us the errors made by others? What about your errors?
1) There are no southbound E's out of Canal/Bway.
2) If the train went to 71 Ave, it would have been going northbound - not southbound, anyway.
3) And if you were on the 17:50 Echo Euclid, Rod Serling had to be the motorman because last I heard, the E's ain't been down that way in over 20 years.
4) The female assailant was with a 10 year old child? Isn't the assailant the one who commits the crime or was this changed and there a message on the bulletin board that I missed?
Now, based on the above, are you sure you want to tell others what the TA and the police did wrong?
I meant northbound. So that explains 1 and 2.
3 - I explained in a previous post about the E being sent to Euclid. I'm sure you can check around and will find that such a train existed and was held behind that E out of Canal.
4 - I was totally correct about the female assailant being the one with a 10 y/o child. It could have been a female who had just abducted that child after being released from Rikers for all I know. That was the description given.
Well, Henry, you caught me. I just checked and the incident did occur almost as you reported it. There was an assault by one female customer on another female customer aboard the 17:38 F 179St. The female assailant did jump off the train at Queens Plaza and board a northbound E (18:08 E) out of Canal St. The female assailant was described as a west indian woman wearing a green floral dress and a large straw hat and was reportedly traveling with mildly retarded 11 year old child. (Hence, While there was no mention of any such E train out of Euclid, I can only assume that you were on the 17:50 E out of Euclid). I also take back the fact that rod serling was your motorman because he retired.
Well, Henry, you caught me. I just checked and the incident did occur almost as you reported it. There was an assault by one female customer on another female customer aboard the 17:38 F 179St. The female assailant did jump off the train at Queens Plaza and board a northbound E (18:08 E) out of Canal St. The female assailant was described as a west indian woman wearing a green floral dress and a large straw hat and was reportedly traveling with mildly retarded 11 year old child. (Hence, While there was no mention of any such E train out of Euclid, I can only assume that you were on the 17:50 E out of Euclid). I also take back the fact that rod serling was your motorman because he retired.
Rod Serling actually has been dead for 25 years ...
One question: How did anyone know that the child was "mildly retarded?"
Re your 4): Neither you nor I would involve a 10-year-old in committing a crime. That doesn't mean that there isn't some woman out there who brings her child along on the job. (There are some really strange people out there.) Maybe she has trouble getting babysitters.
As I posted in my follow-up, it was actually true that a child was there with the assailant. It was reported that he was an 11 year old, mildly retarded boy. However, as Peter correctly asked, how did they know he was mildry retarded?
Good question.
I attended. I'm not an engineer, but I now work in budget for an engineering department.
Hevesi didn't show, or send a rep.
Green seemed out of it, but mentioned three rail projects (2nd Avenue, #7 extension, 2nd Avenue).
Bloomberg sent a Junior rep, who read a prepared statement.
Vallone was very sharp and knowledgeable, but it is clear that transporation is not his priority.
Ferrer seemed sharp, but housing is his priority, not infrastructure.
Vallone and Green had advance muffins handing out propaganda. None mentioned investment in infrastructure (now there's honest advertizing).
All the questions from the engineers, some of whom had trouble expressing themselves clearly, concerned higher salaries for municipal engineers and less contracting out to consultants. The candidates smiled and answered the questions more or less well.
I attended. I'm not an engineer, but I now work in budget for an engineering department.
Hevesi didn't show, or send a rep.
Green seemed out of it, but mentioned three rail projects (2nd Avenue, #7 extension, 2nd Avenue).
Bloomberg sent a Junior rep, who read a prepared statement.
Vallone was very sharp and knowledgeable, but it is clear that transporation is not his priority.
Ferrer seemed sharp, but housing is his priority, not infrastructure.
Vallone and Green had advance muffins handing out propaganda. None mentioned investment in infrastructure (now there's honest advertizing).
In short, no matter who gets elected, transit and infrastructure are not likely to get much attention. Figures.
Larry,
Thank you very much for attending and providing us with a thorough report.
I am a Civil Engineer, and would have liked to attend. It might have been slightly hostile territory, since I work for one of those dreaded private consulting firms that now handle the bulk of the City's design work ;)
I'm not terribly surprised that the candidates or their dispatched mouthpieces simply paid lip service to transportation issues. If the candidates believed that they couldn't get elected (or remain in office) without transportation being a priority, then I imagine their platforms would be starkly different.
So of the mayoral candidates (Hevesi, Green, Bloomberg, Vallone, and Ferrer), who do you feel could be the most sincerely receptive to transportation issues? Or, more appropriately, who do you feel was the least prejudiced against making transportation a priority?
Vallone and Ferrer indicated that transportation is not their priority. The absence of Hevesi suggests the same. That leaves Green and Bloomberg. Might you be able to provide more information on what Green said about transit extension? Do you recall what the prepared statement by Bloomberg said? Did they mention other infrastructure issues not pertaining to rapid transit?
Thank you very much for again. I appreciate your initiative,
MATT-2AV
IMO, if any of the candidates get in, transportation in this city will still go down the toilet. Looking at Ferrer, the only things that he's serious about (transit - wise) are the demolition of I-895 in the Bronx (which cuts through his old "hood" and is over valuable real estate and Parks Dept. property), and the construction of the MN Yankee Stadium station on the Hudson line. He says that he's for the Second Avenue subway, but he probably doesn't have either the political clout or guts to get it build and extended into the central and eastern Bronx as planned.
Vallone is a study in the science of NIMBY. I had a United States history professor (one of the best I've ever had), who asked in one of our classes why there wasn't any train service to LaGuardia Airport (she didn't grow up in this city). I was going to tell her that the person blocking the extension of the Astoria Elevated from Ditmars to the airport also happens to be the head of the City Council.
Green has paid the most lip service of all. But he doesn't have his priorities straight with regards to transit.
I've stuck my fork in Hevesi a long time ago. So he's a non - issue.
Bloomberg would be more concerned about ESA and MN acces to Penn Station than he would helping out a liberal consituencly that's gaining force in various points in this city with bette transit.
Badillo, well, he's got his own issues.
As you've probably figured out already, I'm not optimistic in any of these candidates.
I'm afraid that the candidates know they can simply demand that someone else build the line and get away with it. NYC Transit as whipping boy and easy political target.
Anybody know/have any suggestions?
You mean a provider where you can post a picture without it having to be called from a page on their site, like this?:
That picture is from my older daughter's website. She uses a provider called Web Strike Solutions. They're down in Australia and they seem to have some kind of religious connection. Anyway, she gets 50 Megs, 2 Megs bandwidth, her choice of Linux or Windows 2000 server. She composes her pages with Adobe GoLive and uploads them via FTP, but I think they have Front Page Extensions too.
The first year is "free", but they charge a $30 setup fee. So the first year of service is $30, after that they hope you stay with and charge $84 a year.
She hasn't had any problems with them and they seem really nice and easy to deal with. I figure for a $30 upfront fee for a year, what can you lose? You're not married to them.
No banners or other obnoxious stuff. You get POP3 email. You can be www.americanpig.com** but you don't get your own IP address.
If you want to do some research, look at the message boards on Web Hosting Talk.
Disclaimer: I don't know much more than I've told you above. Caveat Emptor. All my company websites right now are on servers at Interland (though some may change). Their lowest price is now $22.95/month for a LINUX account (I think) with 10% off for a year prepay.
**Actually you can't be americanpig.com--somebody in San Diego already took that name. But my point is you can have a real URL.
Just one question: What difference would it make whether I get the page on a Win2K or Linux server? I use Win2K at home.
And do they host your address for you? I don't want to continue using a forwarding service that puts your webpage in a frame (like www.subtalklive.com).
If you opt for the Linux server, it won't be running Microsoft IIS and therefore your pages won't be as readily defaced by hackers, you can use *.html instead of *.htm for your pages, you can run CGI scripts instead of *.asp's ("asps, very dangerous - you go first" quoted Indiana Jones) and in general, much faster service. What you lose is "front page extensions" (another security nightmare) which would require that your pages be designed for ALL browsers and not just IE ... but the main advantage to Linux is security ...
To answer your last question first, they do host your name. This is especially important, IMO, if you want major search engines to index your site, and it's a big convenience for people bookmarking your pages. Not to mention remote serving of your pictures.
I'm not going to give a bottom line Linux vs. Win2K. I have a foot in both camps, both in software and on the web. rapidtransit.net is on a Linux server. The ISP does have Front Page extensions on Linux, as do most these days. A lot of the difference is other software. Some software runs better or not at all on one or the other, like PHP goes on Linux, Cold Fusion on Win, and so on. At the level you will probably start at, you could always change platforms later, if you have a reason to. I don't expect you'll be writing a lot of PHP or ASP scripts while you're getting your feet wet.
One little note--it's good discipline to follow naming conventions anyway, but remember especially that Linux is case sensitive.
www.pigsinternational.com/subwaycar.jpg and
www.pigsinternational.com/SubwayCar.JPG
are the same file on Windows, but two different files on Linux.
I'll leave the big arguments re; Unix vs. Windows to others--you can find gigawords about it on the web. I like to read them, tho', l-)
If you have a permanent connection (DSL, Cable,) why not to run the server yourself, if the treaffic you anticipate would be light that could work. There are services allowing you to have a dynamic address for your web server. I believe for a while Subtalk was running off Dave's DSL.
Arti
Yes,i t was but I had a static IP on my DSL line-- most cable providers and DSL services use DHCP to assign dynamic addresses. Not ideal for running a web server.... Those that provide it typically are more expensive than those that don't.
[Yes,i t was but I had a static IP on my DSL line-- most cable providers and DSL services use DHCP to assign dynamic addresses. ]
I've seen services that deal with this issue, can't name any of the top of my head but a search engine would probably help.
Arti
Dave, would anyone really want to run a web server at home unless they have a HUGE site?
I'm thinking about having to leave the equipment on 24/7, and if the server goes down, there goes your site.
You might want to run the web server at for totally opposite reasons, a small and non-critical site, at the same time providing you a platform to tinker with.
Arti
Coming to a train near you...
I saw on an R-42 on the M today ads, in at least 4 languages, one for each line. One is:
(Graphic of Orange Circle B changing to Yellow Circle W in phases-of-the-moon style).
The (B) is now (W)!
And that's just the beginning, for more info pick up a Manhattan Bridge brochure at your station today (or something like that).
Another is:
(Graphic of orange circle D with letter metamorphosizing into Q while the letter color darkens and the circle color transitions to yellow)
The (D) is now (Q)!
And that's just the beginning...(see above).
I presume there is one for the (Q) and the < Q > but we shalt see...
Yeah, the second one is wild. Look closely at it, and you'll see that the back of the D begins to bend, and a "tail" begins growing out of the front. In 5 steps, it's a Q. They didn't go that far with the B/W.
I've seen these. They're in the English, Spanish, Chinese, and Russian languages.
I have seen these on the buses, too.
I haven't seen (Q) to < Q > yet, though.
Hebrew too...
Haven't seen them, yet.
Well, not completely extinct, but dissapeared for 4 years. I know I am. I am taking trips on all trains over the Manhattan Bridge to take pictures. I want to remember the images of the orange backround Q and the B and D riding on the MB...
Don't forget the 6th Ave exp run.
The orange circle Q will never exist again...
Oh I won't forget the 6 Avenue Express, and orange circle Q...
The B, D, and Q are now to be dead in Brooklyn but the N still lives. There is some justice left in the world.
Heard on the news that there are blackouts in Canarsie and City Line, and the areas around it are at risk. Has this affected subway service?
Yes, the 3 line was out from Utica to New Lots for about a hour. When I arrived at New Lots late last night, the station lights was still out as well as part of the neighborhood. Police helicopters everywhere providing lights.
In case a station has a blackout we are to immediately hit our alarm which has a battery backup. If we have elevators we have to try to find out if anyone is trapped. Police and supervision will respond. If it is just the station then the trains will skip the station (assum,iong trains have power.)
To answer another question: Turnstiles and our computer have a battery backup which should last for around 24 hours. Of course, when the power comes back up, if we lost our figures then it is a booth audit.
I am sure Train Dude or one of our RTO employess will elaborate on train evac procedures but any NYCT employee on the train will be told to assist- we are all trained.
A booth audit - sounds like fun. Those Station Supervisors have to find something to do!
-Stef
What is a booth audit? How is it different from what you do when you start or end a shift?
Let me put it to you this way: If there's a problem with the amount of money you have in the booth at a given time, a shortage, it'll be up to the supervisor to come and correct the problem. The Supervisor has to determine why there is a shortage. Shortages usually come from a non-communicating turstile that doesn't relay the proper numbers of registered fares to the Token Booth Terminal. Subway-Buff knows more about this than I do, but a shortage of tokens comes a long way for the station who scratches his head and wonders why he doesn't have the money to show for those fares registered in the computer.
When you start your shift you have to make sure all money is accounted for before letting the previous clerk go for the day. At the end of the day, you do your own checking of money and make sure it's there so your relief doesn't have any problem when the bank and tokens are counted up.
-Stef
With all due respect to Stef and the Subway Buff, there isn't enough money in the TA budget to pay me to be a Station Agent. It's not so much the supervision, but it's some of the riding public, but even worse are the unscrupulous fellow clerks who won't think twice about pinching a 20 or 40 out of your count. And if you don't have the money in your wallet to make up for the short, then the TA garnishes your check AND you face a suspension. I'd rather drive a bus.
To further explain A Booth Audit:
The supervisor comes and checks everything-- keys, booth property such as rubber stamps, flashlights, etc. Supervisor then empties the turnstiles, checks how many tokens, prevalued cards, cash you are supposed to have in the booth. Supervisor then runs the tokens they pulled (count the tokens they got from emptying the turnstiles)and sees how much money you are supposed to have from MetroCard sales.
If the supervisor comes up with the same amount of money (everything is changed to cash for an audit) then you are cool. If there is a shortage- we pay. If there is an overrage of money we must send it in.
I hear you-- the overrage is not really extra money. It is money not on the computer such as when the computer goes down and we lose the information we had.
Zman-- all transit jobs have their problems-- AS far as dishonest employees , the secret is to watch the person you are relieving-- lock up everything and you keep the keys. If there is a third or even fourth person in the booth ask them to leave before you take over the booth. A CTA, Lunch, etc. can be asked to wait outside until the relief is over.
The customers can be a pain. We always have the option to call the police if they harass us too much. As far as I gave you a twenty when they gave you a ten, the secret is to place their money on top of the board until they leave. We can always say. OK- let me close the window and I will count everything. If I am over by $10 it is yours. Usually they will realize we are wise to their scheme and leave. If they dont the line will usually "force" them to "surrender". We also, if the amount is small have other options such as a disabled ticket or ecven buzz them in to settle the issue.
Another method is to give them the change with the big bill on top- that way they'll see the ten and are elss likely to pocket it and claim you shorted them.
I have a very close friend who is a longtime S/A (his file number is two digits). He told me a story about one time when a lunch relief cut open one of the bags in the safe with a razor, took out $100, and either sewed or glued the bag closed again (I sorta forgot which one it really was).
Low and behold, he had to pay the short via a garnishment, and he got five days in the street on top of that (down from 20 days).
Not to knock your friend,but that is why we are told to put away the money for lunch reliefs and take the key with you. Unfortunately, some employees are thieves.
BTW- I am honest.
But, he said the relief cut open the bag. How can you be expected to guard against that? They should have cameras in every booth.
Peace,
ANDEE
When your lunch relief arrives, take all money you do not want to risk losing and place in the cabinet with the sealed bags of tokens. ***lock*** the cabinet and ***take the key with you***.
When you deposit your bag in the safe watch your relief and the bag. If need be, hold your bag.
>>>When you deposit your bag in the safe watch your relief and the bag. If need be, hold your bag<<<
So, in essence, you are saying that if you don't trust your relief you are allowed to take the money with you?
Peace,
ANDEE
NO! Hold it while the relief process is taking place and then drop the bag in the safe and make sure it is in the safe.
The power in my building in the 80's on the west side was out for a half hour...freaky!
The news should've mentioned that. We got more hot weather in store for us this weekend.
There was a power blackout in las vegas nevada ! how about that ??
Does it really matter? These things happen if someone drives into a utility pole, or a tree branch falls in the wrong place, or a transformer vault floods due to a broken sewer, or if a high voltage transmission line is taken down by a severe storm, etc. Sure blackouts aren't an every day occurance, but they aren't exactly a big deal either.
-Robert King
i dont disagree with most of what you said .......however in las vegas the other day it was a whole different story & why it happened .
I can imagine that Las Vegas looks one heck of a lot different during a power failure though!
-Robert King
I did something today that I haven't done since about 1974--I rode the "F" in Brooklyn via the express tracks between Jay and Church. Only it was on an R-46, not an R-40, and at Church av, there wasn't a "GG" on the local tracks made up of R-10's!! Time Warp anyone??
Tony
Were there actually R-10s on the GG in 1974? AFAIK they were still on the A for the most part, with an occasional consist on the CC. They started showing up elsewhere in late 1977, when the slant R-40s took over on the A.
There were R-10’s running on the GG line (now the G) well into the mid-’80’s, and also occasionally R-32’s (pre-G.O.H., of course). I couldn’t tell you about that period of which you speak, however, as I wasn’t really riding the subways at that time. . . .
R10's ran on the G in the late 70's and early 80's. By 1985, they had all been moved to the C and the R32 ruled the line.
The R-10's were also on the revived "H" in Rockaway during that time sporting their dark green paint job!! Tony
Those were R16's that were on the GG in the early-mid seventies.
You also got the occasional R38 and R40 on the GG during this time.
You are right, I recall R-38's on the "GG" back in the '70's on occasion. Mostly, I saw the 38's on the "B" line for years. I really do not recall seeing r-16's running anywhere except on the "EE", and later, the "LL" and finally the "J". While railfanning in 1981, I recall many r-16 units in storage at the Fresh Pond Yard, but they were all out of service. Tony
A few other posts last week said that the 6400's were in storage around the system. Rockaway Park was another yard where they were stored.
Get use to it Ebwaytony1, TIMES ARE CHANGING! Anyhow, the reason why you didn't see your favorite train, those clunkers, (or what some people would call them, noise makers aka R10) was taken out of our miseries. Isn't it good to have nice air condition trains that doesn't cause naseau?
The next loudest trains we should get rid of is those R40's, 21's and everything below the 42 series.
N Broadway Line
Hello N-Broadway line. When I did my original post about the "F" express diversion the other day, I meant that it put me into a time warp for a moment being on that express track!! It's one of those rare deja vu moments because I hadn't ridden on that track in years, but I remember when it was in service and the cars that were on the line. YES, I am very aware that the R-10's are long gone (and they were LOUD and filthy). So were the R 27-30's that I can remember on the South Side of the MannyB. on the "N" and "QB" back when!! AAAh-memories!! But yes, the R-46's are a staple of the "F", my home line, and they have been since '76. It's nice to think of something different for the BORING "F".......Tony
>>The next loudest trains we should get rid of is those R40's, 21's and everything below the 42 series.<<
You do realize that the R-21's have been reitired for some years now?
6336-6345 are reunited and being readied for service on the 2 once again. I spotted them doing the usual rounds of simulated runs just moments ago. Anyone know the end results of the 142/142A marriage? What was found? Conclusions?
I wonder if 7211-20 are ready to go home to Pelham?
-Stef
>Anyone know the end results of the 142/142A marriage? What was found? Conclusions? <
I'll venture a guess - the test failed, not all systems were compatible.
Your guess is right the train went out of service on Monday after some of the trains cars where B.C.O (Brake Cut Out). The cars with the problem where the Bombardier they just did not get alone with Kawaski.
I was hearing the same thing from the time it ws being tested on the 2. Another R142 set that needto be worked on is 6576-85. There was two cut out doors and in car 6577 the side destinations was not on.
Do you mean the cars BCO'd themselves or they had to be BCO'd
after having stuck brakes?
The End result of this test was that Every Operating System on the R-142A (7211-7215) reacts a fraction of a second quicker that the R-142 (6336-6340).
I had a chance to ride this train twice and you can feel it if you ride the Bombarider End. When the Kawasaki ends take off, the Bombardier brakes release late and you feel a huge jerk. And when you ride the Bombardier end operating, when it takes off, its a 5 second delay before the system says, OH DUH Time To Go!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
I rode in the Bombardier cars when the R142/142A combo was on the 6. The train did take a little longer to get moving out of the station. But I thought it might have been that the crew wasn't used to them yet.
Wednesday's Wall Street Journal had a couple favorable mentions of BART in an article describing the growing desirability of downtown Oakland's office market. Oakland seems to be coming into its own after decades in San Francisco's shadow. The office vacancy rate in downtown Oakland is significantly lower than in downtown San Francisco (admittedly, a much larger market), and some rents are approaching San Francisco levels. There are a variety of reasons for Oakland's good performance, among them a much lower reliance on now-troubled "New Economy" companies and the pro-development policies of Mayor Jerry Brown (yes, the former Governor Moonbeam himself ... will wonders never cease?) But one big factor is Oakland's transportation infrastructure, BART in particular.
As the presence of BART has helped Oakland, its absence has hurt the recently trendy "satellite city" of Emeryville just to its north. Commercial vacancies in Emeryville have hit the horrendous 20% mark. The article cited the lack of BART service as a major reason.
So when does lobbying for BART service to Emeryville begin?
Must be HOT down there in the subways. Even though it barely reached 90 in the city here we got up to 90 and it's still 90 in the unairconditioned part of my apartment. Still in the low 80s out there. The heat won't break until the weekend if we're lucky.
Hottest station I use is the 7 at Times Square. It's like a furnace down there.
The coldest? Canal Street Bridge Line Station. It's wonderful down there.
I think Queens Plaza is one stop away from hell. Way too hot.
Are those A/C's above the platform at Grand Central 42nd street stop 4, 5, 6?
Yup those are A/C above the Grand Central platforms and they help alot. They should be installed in all subway stations.
I've noticed the "A" train PULLMAN service is up. The number of guest has gone up with the temperature.
avid
Spent some time at the library today and read a book titled SUBWAY. It is a collection of pictures of the NYC subway system around 1980, as well as some stories from the author himself.
Man the 80s were bad down there. Even the interior of the R44s and 46's were full of grafitti. The IRT was the worst, literlly every inch covered and no A/C in any of the cars. And with crime rampant it was very dangerous to ride. It's hard to imagine looking at it now how it ever got that bad. Seeing all the pictures were horrible.
This was before any overhauls, and they showed an R44 (or 46) on the F with a strip map on the inside of a roll sign facing the outside. Also R40s were on the A (or CC) line.
This book "titled" Subway reminds us all of how grateful we should be that things have improved. The worst I've seen is the rat problem. Saw four huge ones run out of a blocked area on the north side of the 23rd street platform at the northbound F. Right on the platform.
Those strip maps were notoriously unreliable. The edges of the maps (out of view under the edges of the windows) were bar coded and the rollsigns were supposed to be automatic, but they were often so dirty that the signs would continuously roll from one end to the other and back. This system was named "Identra" (per lettering on the maps). It seems the TA reserves the term "Identra" for non-functional systems 8-)
The very first vandalism on these newly-delivered cars was the glass in the cars (between the doors and the seats) being broken out - it was common to see a whole train with no intact interior glass.
Interesting, you should TRY and get the Book "Subway Art". After looking for that book for ages, because Barnes & Noble doesnt stock it anymore because IT gets Stolen too much, thats the exact words the clerk told me, reguardless After looking thru that book I realized that there is NOO reason trains should not look like they do in the book, and it gets a little personal with the graffiti writers as well, quite the transit book. Made me believe why the NYC Transit Police was ineffective was because they had pushbroom mustashes. Reguardless, for there is no emoticon that can express the way I feel when I pick up the Book.
"There once was atime when the Lexington was a beautiful line When children of the ghetto expressed with art not with crime
But then as evolution past, the Transits Buffing did its Blast
And now the trains look like rusted Trash. Now we wonder will Graffiti exer Last??
- "LEE" Fabolus Five 1980
I really hate to do make this known but there is a web site dedicated to the Graffit scourge. It is www.at149st.com
I think it is a shame to be allowed to immortilize vandalism. But such is the Freedom of the Press.
Thanks for sharing, I know Spar One, one of the people who runs the site, it wasnt just vandalism, it was a culture movement.
"it wasnt just vandalism, it was a culture movement."
No, it was a *bowel* movement all over the people's property.
Amen!!
You gotta love when emotions get involved in answering a question or stating something instead of using your brain!
Everybody hates Graffiti, we all know that! It was, is currently and by looking at trends and the future it sure seems to want to continue even after thirty years of trying to eradicate.
Graffiti is culture, like it or not, good or bad!
Reality sucks don't it!!!
I think I read that book a long time ago. Was one of the stories something about the photoghapher dropping something on the track and going down there to retrieve it? Another story I recall was the photographer leading a elementary fieldtrip, using the subway to get where they were going. However, the teacher gave up because it took forever, so they all went back to school. That book made the subway seem scary as hell (I was around 9 when I read it). Every train interior in that book had marker graffiti all over it, among other things.
Yup that's the book. It sure painted the subway in a very negative image. But those were hard times.
Yup NYC was on the verge of going financialy bankrupt.
Many corrupt politicians and cops.
The mob was involved in every aspect of the city,
crime was ruining the city. Now tourists are!
The graf movement was a socio economic message of it's urban enviorment. "You don't care, we don't care". Look at where it came from, who started it, when it started. Look around the world where graffiti is done!
Today's graf is a multimilion dollar business. "TATS CREW" from the Bronx who now paint murals; signed with Coca-Cola to do art work for them. $ 500 000 contract. They started on the IRT in the early days of the movement.
you market your talents, you make money and get a name...
Yup NYC was on the verge of going financialy bankrupt.
Many corrupt politicians and cops.
The mob was involved in every aspect of the city,
crime was ruining the city. Now tourists are!
The graf movement was a socio economic message of it's urban enviorment. "You don't care, we don't care". Look at where it came from, who started it, when it started. Look around the world where graffiti is done!
Today's graf is a multimilion dollar business. "TATS CREW" from the Bronx who now paint murals; signed with Coca-Cola to do art work for them. $ 500 000 contract. They started on the IRT in the early days of the movement.
You market your talents, you make money and get a name...
he is very right, GCW got discovered by accident, next thing i know im chillin for free in florida selling a mural. MARTY COME DOWN, YOURE MISSING OU ON TOO MUCH, willbe doing graff at bush terminal on ...day .will email with details
Although I never rode the subways during the height of the graffiti era. I saw how bad the subways were through picture and on the news. The subways were also very dirty at the time and all the crime that was going on at the time made many people scared to ride on them. I rode the subway for the very first time in 1988 and at that point it was much cleaner than it was just a few years earlier. When I toured the system in 1993 the line that really scared me was the ex-BMT 14th Street Canarsie Line ("L" train) since that line runs through some rough neighborhoods. I guess that the "L" train is probably a little safer than it was in 1993. I've also noticed over the last few years that they have cleaned up more and more of the stations and in many cases they have upgraded the lighting.
BMTJeff
You dont know anything I gather
At 5pm, I was waiting at 53rd/Lex for an E to 42nd. We were told that there was no E service, do to a police investigation at Chambers St. Only F trains were running at the time. I took an F to 42nd, walked to 8th ave, and picked up the trade publication that I can purchase only in Manhattan, at a particular newstand.
I re-entered the subway at 42nd/8th, it was now 5:45, still no E trains. I walked over to the 7, to go to Roosevelt, at which point, I would have my choice between a local or express to Continental, my final destination. I finally got to Roosevelt at about 6:30, and there were still no E trains. I boarded a local for the sake of having a seat, and watched three F trains pass me on the express track. Still no E's.
To make matters worse, the escalators at 53rd/Lex were out of service. You should have seen the look on the faces of the people climbing that long escalator.
I also noticed that the escalators leading from the 7 to the EFGR at Roosevelt were not working. There are the escalators located at the end of the 7 platform, not the narrow one at the middle of the platform.
The subway system is falling apart.
I just got back for LA, where the Metro suprised me with it's cleanliness, efficiency, and overall superiority compared to NYC.
Functioning escalators, wide staircases to accomodate people, and the speed at which the trains rode, once again confirmed my belief that the NYC Subway is a joke compared to other cities.
I can only suggest: when there is a major disruption of service, such as the one you describe, crowd control becomes a major concern. Perhaps they were shut off intentionally. What happens if the escalator comes down and the platform is so congested people can't get off? Leg injuries as people start to literally fall all over one another. I cannot, however, justify the up escalators being turned off.
Escalators are shut off if there is a crowd condition per transit policies (as stated in the official bulletins.Only supervision can start/stop escalators. If we are working an escalator station we must call supervision immediately on a crowd condition. The top priority in an emergency is clearing the stations and reversdal and even stopping escalators is an option as stated in the official bulletin.)
The problem last night was a partial building collapase in lower Manhattan near Church Street and a resulting gas leak. The trains were rerouted: C suspended, E via R to Whitehall and A via F from W4 to Jay. Later on the C resumed and ran along with the A on the F. Still later normal service was resumed with a slow speed near Chambers on the A.
Bill, I know you understand. To the others: This is not our fault that a building collapased. Would you have preferred reading:" Subway train caught in fireball from gas explosion. Hundreds killed."
It depends. If they could have been the hundreds who spent time harassing me last night while I was going home with my wife, just simply because their trains weren't running and I was a handy Transit employee, then I certainly wouldn't have missed them.
This escalator situation has gotten absurd. In one sense, the TA's incompetence regarding escalators is a bit funny, in a bumbling, nutty-professor sort of way, but the inconvenience to riders is unacceptable.
Maybe subway-buff can answer this one: Sure, there are constant instances of escalators not running when they should be, but why is it that escalators are still running long after the mezzanine they serve is closed for the night? Example: I'm often waiting for a Queensbound N or R at Lex, at the "front" of the platform, next to the escalators that go up to the 3rd Avenue fare-control area. It's well after 9:00 (I've stood there anywhere from 9:30 to 1 or 2 in the morning) when the exit is closed, and yet there the escalators are, right behind the closed, locked gates, one running up, one running down, empty, of course, every single time! This is ridiculous! It wastes energy and provides unneeded wear and tear on the machine. Why? Are they afraid if they shut them off they won't start again?
I can answwer your question: Only supervision (or a manager or Escalator/Elevator Section employee) can start or stop an escalator save for an emergency. We have emergency stop buttons in most booths at escalaor stations which include an emergency stop button.
We dont make the rules- we have to follow thwe rules others make.
The DOWN escalator at the north end of 5th Avenue has seen frequent out of service bouts. IT seems like just a year or three ago when Lex,5th and 7th avenues had the elevators replaced after decades of use. Did the Warranty just run out?
avid
I just got back for LA, where the Metro suprised me with it's cleanliness, efficiency, and overall superiority compared to NYC.
Functioning escalators, wide staircases to accomodate people, and the speed at which the trains rode, once again confirmed my belief that the NYC Subway is a joke compared to other cities.
Well, when you get billions of government dollars to build a brand-new system from scratch, decades after getting rid of all rail-based transit to build freeways everywhere, you get a nice system like L.A. Unfortunately, most people in L.A. can't use the Metro to go anywhere, because the city is so big and the subway coverage so tiny.
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I agree that the LA Metro does not properly serve the residential neighborhoods of LA. But the coverage of the Metro is not that bad. You can take the Metro to just about every major point of interest in LA. Hollywood, Universal Studios, Olympic Auditorium, Staples Center, Downtown, etc...
does anybody have an idea about what was going on this evening?
Word from the NYS ISO (Independent System Operator) in Guilderland (next town north of me) [AND YES, THIS IS *OFFICIAL] reports that 3 feeder cables failed (opened up) at a substation on the border of Canarsie and "Hightown?" Never heard of that ... but it affected portions of Canarsie, East New York, Brownsville and New Lots. Reports of between 2500 and 3500 customers affected. No information as to how long ConeHead (or is it the former BUG) will require to replace the burned cables and additional damage owing to excessive loads is possible.
Looks like those portapotty generators didn't quite get hooked up fast enough and the feeders are overtaxed ... there was plenty of power available to the city in general so no "widespread" blackouts expected (in other words, no shortage of electrons as yet) but the wires spit the bit under the street because there isn't enough capacity ...
Con Ed or that weird new electric company (forget the name) would be the source for more current information on how soon repairs will be made ... Washington Heights in 1999, now Brownsville/Canarsie ... funny the neighborhoods with "inadequate wiring" no?
This doesn't sound good. At least it doesn't sound like the transformers themselves got damaged. It would have been much worse if they had - especially if they are the kind filled with PCB laced coolant.
-Robert King
Yeah, the big problem in NYC has traditionally been not so much the transformers themselves (when one of these goes, it's SPECTAULAR) but the multiple-spliced, inadequate number of "feeder cables" that FEED the transformers from the main distribution network. There just hasn't been enough of them and "right of way" to add more is virtually nonexistent down there. With all the fiber-optic, cable TV and other non-power wire facilities that have been stuffed into the "Empire Subway" (wire conduits) over the years, ain't much room for power cables down there anymore.
Well maybe they can get some new overhead cables. They could use road and subway ROW. In general major power cables do straddle RR ROW's, but not in NYC.
The BIG power cables required always bring out the NIMBYs in full force ... I have two major 465'ish KV lines on the edge of my property that brings juice from Quebec down to you guys the city ... most folks don't have the background in electrical engineering that I have and just plain flip out if there's even MENTION of adding more.
In order to bolster the distribution system within NYC limits, streets need to be cut up so new passageways can be built for them. Now tell me how well that's going to go over? It'll be fought every step of the way until the city's been dark for a few weeks. Either folks can turn off and scrap their air conditioners or they can go along with the reality that the present electrical distribution wire just ain't enough.
What's down there now was placed before everyone had a color TV, computers, microwaves and other power hogs. Used to be a fan was all you needed for the summer ... now a lot of people have air conditioners ... and yet, very little extra wire was installed. That's the problem. Of course our admin down in DC can solve this problem too simply by drilling for more oil. :)
Hi, Selkirk. The neighborhood is known as Hylan Park, named after the former mayor of NYC who went after the "traction interests" as he called the IRT and BRT back in those days, and created the "Independent system".
Got it ... THANKS ... when I called one of my buddies in the control center (I used to work for the NYPSC) he rapped off who got hit and I heard "Highland Park" and never heard of such a place. Now I know where I scrooched ...
Power outage affecting ENY, Highland Park, Canarsie, Brwonsville, and New Lots. The 3 line was out from Utica to New Lots. See my previous post on this issue.
So it finally comes to this. It's time to say goodbye to the Redbirds that ruled the IRT for so many years. Hard to believe it's happening. On my way into Riverdale, I passed the north end of 207th St Yard and noticed a pile up of 'birds awaiting dispositon.
I proceeded to my destination as planned when I decided to return to 215th St. I had a mini-railfan session with myself even though it had tuned dark and was a little after 9. Up I went to the platform at 215th St to do some examining of the 'birds that were stripped.
From what I could tell, there were about 16 cars on two tracks with two of the cars apart from the other 14. The two in question were formerly married, but each are divorced from their companions. I must say that the majority of the cars are R-29s and 36s from the Pelham Line. 8654 and 55, 9544 and 45 to name a few. A couple of 'birds from the 5 were also there. Looks like the shop took out just about every movable part they could get their hands on, whether it be a window or a door.
Perhaps my friend Engine Brake (or someone else) could help on this one, does anyone know how soon these cars are going to be taken off the property?
I'll remember the Redbirds for the time they spent running up and down the line past my house, but the end has come.
Farewell......
-Stef
& bring on the new 'scrap ready' R-142s ,breakin down for this HIGH TECH reason & that HIGH TECH reason & so & so !! ????
brand new syrofoam on wheels ! woooooppppppeeee !! LOL!!
Chill out dude. It's not the end of the world, but I guess by your standards it is.
-Stef
I wish his world would end. Or at the very least, his PC.
-Hank
We should be so lucky...
Peace,
ANDEE
???
???
Or at the very least, his PC. ???
-Hank !!
***************
by the way sir i own a 1997 i mac g3, however i am saving up for a PC soon and i save up enough dough !......LOL !!!
yea no more railfan window to shoot videos with !! ( sigh ) ....
I sort of felt the same way when the Lo-V's were scrapped but life (and subway cars) go on.
I just want to add one thing. I have been reading these posts about Red birds being such a superior cars and the R-142 class cars being shoddy and will always have problems. The days of the Redbirds are over.There's nothing anyone can do to reverse time with these cars anymore they were rehabbed,painted and lived along time great history its time to move on to present times enjoy what is running.I really miss the R-10 class cars. I liked the different color shemes these cars sported over the years of service.I also liked the R1-R9 cars to don't remember when they were new but appreciated when they were serving most of the B-Division. But the point of this matter is that beauty of the New York City Transit system is to enjoy the many diffent car classes that we get to ride and enjoy while they are around and accept change and move on. I love diversity so i look for the good in all class cars there are in the system. I feel privledged to be able to be healthy enough and live in New York to be able to ride all the different rail cars that are offer .New York Subway is #1 in my Book .
Well, as much as I also love the RedBirds, from their sound to the way they sway on an express run. However, even I can see the rust on the car bodies. The other day, I saw a #7 with a fist-size hole right through its hull.
I just hope they preserve a few for the musuems and nostalgia runs.
I just hope they preserve a few for the musuems and nostalgia runs. !!!
I agree with you there !!
"But the point of this matter is that beauty of the New York City Transit system is to enjoy the many diffent car classes that we get to ride"
This is one of the things I like most about the NYC subway. I live in the Washington DC area and our Metro only has two different kinds of cars; one made by Breda and the other made by Rohr. But they all look almost exactly the same on the outside. Makes it a little boring.
stole my thunder there! I think this is what they want to do with the nyc subway as well !!
...........( sigh ) .................!!!
at least its better than old rusty asbestos mobiles that are used up and falling apart
Asbestos is only bad if you tough it or spray it onto something. You could walk on asbestos floor tiles until your feet were worn down to bloody nubs and you'd still never get lung cancer. I still want them to bring back asbestos brake shoes and pads. The new composite ones squeak too much.
I still want them to bring back asbestos brake shoes and pads. The new composite ones squeak too much.
Now that's silly. What do you think happens when brakes wear down? The material has been released little by little. Why do you post inanities like this, to get Train Dude's goat? Good luck.
Now you know why JM's on my Killfile.
I'm sure if there had been any problem with the minute amount of dust released over time that someone would have sued someone else over it. All I know is that some worry wart panicked and now my brakes squeak. It's like a nails-on-blackboard squeak too.
Hey genius, someone DID sue. The guys who manufactured them. Speak the truth, or bite your tongue.
-Hank
And as always, the consumer suffers the loss of yet another quality product.
And the lives of several thousand people are affected by cancer-causing asbestos. Were you aware that there are specific types of cancer caused ONLY by exposure to asbestos? You know, you should pull your head out of your ass one day, and take a look at the real world. You'll find it's mighty interesting.
-Hank
Asbestos dust from brake linings was the main source of airborne friable asbestos in the environment. It's removal from the market was a big win for those who breathe. Jerky, forget the redbirds, worry about those woodpeckers who are nesting in your cranial cavity.
It was a bigger win for those poor souls who manufactured such items. That's who I wa refering to.
-Hank
And it's a big loss for thos of us who enjoy stopping. Do to improper use, Asbestos, as well as other popular chemicals such as Halon, Hydrogen gas, Red dye No. 2 and 3,4,5-T, have been vilified without a thorough cost/benifit analysis.
Dickhead, the problem with asbestos is that it's dangerous WHEN USED AS DIRECTED. The same is true with Halon (which can only be used in a situation where people are likely not to be present) As for Hydrogen-what the hell would you use it for? It's dangerous simply because it exists. I don't know the story behind the red dye, but if it's like anything else you've cited, it's probably exactly as dangerous as science says it is. Cost-benefit analysis is crap when it comes to endangering human lives. Witness the Ford Pinto.
Congratulations on being the second-most common element in the universe.
-Hank
As a union Environment, Health & Safety Specialist where I work. i believe that I am a bit more qualified to comment on chemical hazards than you are. Sound science has found that each of those substances you mention are too dangerous for the marketplace. Fortunately, technology is developing substitute materials which are getting better all the time along with improved remediation techniques such as bioremediation (using "designer" bacteria to "eat" such horrific substances as PCB's) to wipe out all traces of these scourges in the environment.
People are paid large amounts of money to take on many different type of hazardous jobs. It is also quite possible to safely work around toxic substances. Take nuclear reactors for an example or just about anything they do down at DuPont.
Bhopol, India.
-Hank
Bhopal, India; Chernobyl, Ukraine; Halifax, Nova Scotia.
-Hank
Stef,
Do you think we should start keeping a scrap order roster like we are for the R142 deliveries? :)
If anyone sees specific car numbers on the scrap line, you can mail me with the numbers, date, and location you saw them and I'll start a table of the info...
-Dave
Here's a listing of Redbirds up for scrapping at 207th Street (so far):
7836-37; 7834,35,36,37,38; 8654-55; 9057 (mate donated to DC Art Festival)
BMTman
clearly the focus is on the 7000s series R26/28 from the 5. These will definitely go before they start bugging the 2 and 7. Please make a table, and also it would be a good idea to keep any delivery notes/scrap notes on the site permanently. And any future deliveries or scrappings can go under each car model's picture page.
I saw some of the 7000's on the 5. They should call them Ghettobirds.
you are worst than an jackass
They look like a typical ghetto. Rust, decay, delapidation, falling appartidness, etc. I don't know what you thought I meant.
Some people like to think that a ghetto can be a nice thing. It never is, never was and never will be.
Once a jackass always a jackass. He got my vote.
-Stef
Add 9508-09 to this.....
-Stef
and 7840-41.
7840/1 are in live storage. They aren't deadlined yet.
Also 7936-37
Hi All,
I've put together first drafts of scrap rosters for the redbirds.
R26, R28, R29
R33, R36 Main Line
R33, R36 World's Fair
I've incorporated all the cars listed here as having been "seen on the scrap lines" as of 6/27/2001. Any new additions let me know car number, date you saw it, and if you can, location too.
Thanks
Dave
These came into Concourse Storage yesterday.
7918/9
7828/9
7952/3
7894/5
#9321 Is currently in the graveyard at CIYD. Fans, air guages, signs and locks have been removed. I posted quite a while back, 2-3months, that I had seen 9486-87 in the shop at 207 on 13 tk. They were stripped to the bone. I don't remember anyone confirming my post that they wouldn't be above Roosevelt Ave. anymore. Were the cars brought to CCY the ones in the back of 207?
Single R33s were taken out of service for the summer due to thier lack of A/C. But this means the single R33s are being taken out of service for the last time if #9321 is in the CIYD graveyard. I take it the other single R33s will be in the graveyard very soon and taken out of service for good.
I rode one (actually a couple) just yesterday on the #7 . . .
I want to get my last rides in of these last cars of their kind - with fans instead of AC and open windows and storm doors.
I pretty much had the whole car to myself and I just sat in the middle and basked in the warm breezes and track, tunnel and fan noise, thinking, 'this is how every subway train was like not too long ago!'
What a sweet ride. The R33-single experience will be missed.
#9321 Is currently in the graveyard at CIYD. Fans, air guages, signs and locks have been removed. I posted quite a while back, 2-3months, that I had seen 9486-87 in the shop at 207 on 13 tk. They were stripped to the bone. I don't remember anyone confirming my post that they wouldn't be above Roosevelt Ave. anymore. Were the cars brought to CCY the ones in the back of 207?
Hello ROBERT AND ANDIS !!!! Study your signals !!!!
Good idea. I'll try to help if I can.
-Stef
7814-15 and 7_88 are stripped and were being pushed around by a diesel in 207 this evening. Lots more cars in there; the only other number I caught was 7754, and it was still intact and signed for the 5. The end cars on the next two tracks were signed "Not in Service."
Even though I never worked the IRT, I group the 'Redbirds' in with the trains I did run: R-9, R-10, R-16, and others still in service. I wish the new equipment was more like the older stuff (new, but less 'modern') but time marches on.
Goodbye old friends...
I agree, I know the Redbirds have to go but I'm still a little unsure of the "new" technology subway cars. There may be a surprise or two in store for us in a year or so, I wish the so called Redbirds were stainless steel like their cousins i.e. the R-32/38s.
After riding the R-142As and an R-29 Redbird back-to-back on the 6, I can say that while the mechanics in the R-142s may be far different and more advanced than the `Birds, the actual difference in the "feel" of the ride is far less than was the case 25 to 35 years ago, when the Standards and the R-1/9s were replaced by the R-40 through R-46 cars on the BMT and IND, and in the IRT's case, when the last of the World's Fair Low Vs departed from the Third Ave. el and were replaced by the R-12s (though the same thing applies to the end of the real Low Vs when the R-33/36s arrived in 1963-64).
The difference between the AC and DC motor sounds is far less of a change than the depature of the bull-and-pinion sounds the older cars were famous for. The smell of lubricating oil and the wicker seats were also lost when the new trains showed up, while the biggest difference, of course, came with the arrival of the final 100 of the Slants and the beginning of the air-conditioning era on the NYC subway.
The softer seats on the R-1/9s certainly felt better than those gawdawful seats on the R-40s, but at thise time of year back around 1969 or 1970, you definitely knew the difference between an old and new train arriving on the E or F when the cold air hit you as the doors opened on one of the slants or their R-40M and R-42 cousins.
Since the cars are going to be scrapped apparently in relatively random order -- based on rustiness and mechanical problems, I would guess -- it probably would be a good thing if someone could keep up a list, because the order they disappear figures to be really haphazard.
Don't give up hope! A latch ditch, 24/7 campaign of non-stop complianing might just be the thing to save the Redbirds. If be bitch and moan and complain loud and long enough we might see the Redbirds run for another 40 years. And by that time they'll probably be all open air cars. It would be like riding in a Gondola car. Can't beat that in the hot summer months and every car would have a railfan view.
Well, As much as I have hoped the R-142's would hurry up and get here, I will, occasionally, miss seeing hordes of Red trains on the NYCTA. Now, the whole fleet will be comprised of superior stainless steel cars. But those old LAHT red cars will be sorely missed.
Perhaps the reason I'll miss the redbirds is that I saw no other old cars aside from the R30. The IRT redbirds were the only 'link to the past' that I had. I never saw anything like a Lov-V, A BMT Standard or an R-1/9. But I always could see the Redbirds, the last of an era of cars that came with Painted cars and marker lights.
I will not miss these loud, rusty behemoths during the crush loads of rush hour. I'll be glad we have the R-142's. I will however, miss catching a #2 train of redbirds on my way to the Brooklyn Central Library during a rainy Saturday.
Farewell redbirds. Have fun with the fishes!
I will not miss these loud, rusty behemoths during the crush loads of rush hour. I'll be glad we have the R-142's. I will however,
miss catching a #2 train of redbirds on my way to the Brooklyn Central Library during a rainy Saturday.
*************
so you re sying the r-142s are silent as a rat pissing on cotton !! & they make "0" Zero sounds especially those ugly sounds they make !! ( no railfan window)
********************
Have fun with the fishes! ????????
**********
QUESTION .......... why would you want to pollute the ocean ?? why not recycle the metal ??
>>so you re sying the r-142s are silent as a rat pissing on cotton !! & they make "0" Zero sounds especially those ugly sounds they make !! ( no railfan window)<<
Within reason salaam. Are you denying that the 'birds are louder?
(I rarely look out of that blasted window. It's seriously overrated)
>>QUESTION .......... why would you want to pollute the ocean ?? why not recycle the metal ??<<
Why would you recycle rush? Besides, the redbirds will not pollute the Ocean, they will assist in the growth of undersea creatures and plants.
after reading all of these posts it is though all of the redbirds are gone and only r-142s are running now !!
eh ?
No sir. They haven't all departed that quickly. You'll still have a chance to do some videos from the RAILFAN WINDOW.
-Stef
Whew !! ( nice ) ....
For those of you who appreciate urban exploration, check out this link:
http://members.tripod.com/~Rappollo/mcs.html
As an added bonus, be sure to follow the Cadillac Hotel link toward the bottom of the main page.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I finally seen a type 8 in action on the green line B branch.
Is it running without "derailing"? Hopefully they can finally put these cars into service.
Chuck Greene
It was Working perfectly
The B-line tracks have been "upgraded." They are now working on the C-line, with D and E to follow. There are now eleven Type-8s in serivice, with a dozen more in acceptance testing. The remainder of the 100 car order are in production.
Maybe there is hope after all. I guess that points the derailment problem to the tracks and probably not the trucks. As a developer
of a new technology product myself, there are always initial problems,
then we fix them!
Thanks Todd!
Chuck Greene
Actually, Chuck, there was a compromise of sorts. An independent consultant was hired, and both paries (MBTA and Breda) had to make changes -- MBTA to the tracks, and Breda to the trucks. So costs were shared, and neither party was totally to blame.
Thanks again, Todd for giving me the info. Again , lets hope more cars enter service to replace aging vehicles, and supplement service to the ever demanding riding public. I'm happy to see the R-142 & R-142A's coming in more & more. Living in the Exton,Pa. area, I rarely come to NYC, but hope to make a trip and ride the new train soon.
We have a nice car in Philly , the M-4 on Market St. and they're
getting the bugs out.
Well , off to my son's wedding on Sunday in Frederick, Md. Weather, hot & humid , chance of showers in the afternoon. They are getting married on a deck at a bed and breakfast so we were "sweating out"
the weather. The actual wedding is at 11 a.m.
Have you ever met our famous weatherman Glen "Hurricane" Schwartz?
Chuck Greene
The July Railpace has a photo on page39 of a Type 8 running with a Type 7.
Riding into Manhattan from Brooklyn last night around 9:30 on the D, we slowed as we left Grand St. We passed a train on the local sitting outside of B'wy-Lafayette. I could only see two cars but it was clearly a set of slants. I didn't pay too much attention then just before hitting the station I noticed that the cars next to us were very bright. I looked out and saw that bright r142 type lighting eminating from two cars. We were still going pretty slow so I did a door count (4) and tried to check out the elctronic displays - orange. Pretty sure it was a pair of 143s. Dunno what they were doing out on the road like that. Testing perhaps. Don't think they were hooked up to the slants behind them. There was at least a carlength between the two consist. They seemed to be signed up for sixth ave service - the electronic signs were definitely in orange though I couldn't make out the letter designation. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get of at B'wy-Lafayette and wait to see if they passed through the station.
Later that night while coing home I became yet another sighter of the elusive southside r68, signed up as an 'N' while plying its way across the MB toward Canal.
That was the R-143 alright (it does have the orange LED signs, rather than the yellow LCD of other newer cars, as I earlier reported.)
I saw it first hand Tues, when I finished posting on the L. They decided to run it down the road before a GO started, and it was at Rockaway Pkwy, then pulled into the spur at 105th, then back to Rocakaway Pkway, and then to 8th Av. It had a track map inside that had colored ink drawn on it to show where it was going from day to day. It seems it had already been all over the system.
They usually run it with a "crash train" (some cars of older equipment that follows right behind it.) I'm not sure how it works, but it is to somehow guard against damage if [either] that train (or another in the area?) goes out of control on a collision course.
The sound is the lower pitched AC whine (like one of the 142's; the Kawasaki, probably). A TSS is running it with technicians on board.
Somebody was asking about 2 weeks ago what the policy on bringing bikes on the commuter trains so they could bike the gaps between rail service. I rode SEPTA from Churchman's crossing to Trenton yesterday and they have signs on the outside of the cars that bicycles ARE ALLOWED EXCEPT DURING PEAK TIMES. so as longs as you're travelling in the off-rush hour times. They even have pposters to that effect in their stations, They're ENCOURAGING IT!!!
Yeah, it's pretty nice because I can ride twice as far on my bike, knowing I won't need the stamina to ride home, thanks to SEPTA.
Mark
Went to museum yesterday rode the 3 train from penn station to Borough Hall and back, i was looking at the safety notice signs and the ads as well as these goofy new poetry signs ans they all said SUBTALK at the bottom with the mta web address. I am assuming SUBTALK is also the MTA'S Name for all communication posted in the trains???
Yes, and they also have that quarterly pamphlet they set out with BusTalk and SubTalk which discusses new issues in 3-4 pamphlet pages. It's like what the passengers should know plus a little more, nothing compared to insider's guides though.
Yeah... choosing it for the web board was an unfortunate choice. We have nothing to do with them and vice versa. It's a catchy name though, it was hard to think of an alternative after the fact.
Dave old buddy old pal ... how would you like MTA *funding* for your bandwidth? Clear copyright violation to me here and we can PROVE that you made use of the "trademark/servicemark" first ... I'd write up a "cease and desist" letter if I were you ...
When I looked at them at first glance i thought they were a promo for the board,
Hey Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were the first user of the names, right?
Peace,
ANDEE
I doubt it very much...
-Dave
Actually, to obtain a registered trademark or servicemark, you have to have documented first use in interstate commerce. Posting on the Web counts. Posters on NYC subway trains does not. I don't know where else NYCTA has used "SubTalk," but if they have not used it in interstate commerce, they cannot claim first use. However they could object, and responding to a challenge could cost significant money (though dropping the application solves this).
Getting a registered mark costs about $500 for the application if you do the work yourself; attorneys will help for $500-$1000 more (but it's not too difficult to do yourself -- I've done it for "The Portable Weather Center," which I have as a registered servicemark for my consulting business).
Interesting information, Todd, Thank You
Peace,
ANDEE
There's SubTalk, BusTalk, and TrainTalk (Metro North and LIRR). If one of those Bus/SubTalk pamphlets crosses into NJ on one of the X17 or X31 buses, does that count as interstate commerce?
This was late night (1am) on a southbound D train. The Conductor made many announcements to the effect that:
"It is STATE LAW that large packages, carriages and bikes be carried in the last car of the train. You face fine and imprisonment for not having your large package, carriage or bike in the last car".
Okay, what State Law? When/If did this become TA policy?
Sounds like he's making up his own rules...
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard this same C/R doing this once before. I don't remeber witch line he was on.
Robert
....at 1am?!!
Aren't the MTA those same blokes who encourage
"off-hour boarding in the center of the platform"
?????????
'Last Car' would seem quite contradictory
to posted rule, my dear Watson..
I agree to you all, but I was no where near the C/R and couldn't get to him before he closed up (didn't have a AAA battery to put in the door track to hold him) to ask him.
(didn't have a AAA battery to put in the door track to hold him) <<<
Oh Louis, you are not admiting that you engage in that type of behavior are you???
J/K
Peace,
ANDEE
Here are the rules for carrying a bicycle on the subway. There is not specific reference to the last car. There is a catch all requiring obeying instructions from operating personnel.
Metro North requires a permit which states the rules. Their rule limits bikes to the two last cars. This was designed to minimize possible conflicts with passengers boarding or disembarking at Grand Central.
There are only two "Rules" listed, the rest are "guidelines". Still think the C/R is making this up.
The C/R IS making this up. I can tell you with 100% certainty that this rule does not exist in the TA.
What the TA does ask is that large parcels, bicycles, etc. do not block the doorways or aisles. So in retrospect, it's perfectly fine to block the doors in the last car eh?
Stupidity runs rampant.
Actually, this guy's the conductor/announcer on the B train to Brooklyn that hits 47-50/Rockefeller around 5:45p weekdays that I take home from my summer job.
Between 47-50/R. and where I get off in Brooklyn, he always makes that "Last Car" announcement at leat twice. Talky fella - he also announces the neighborhoods each stop is located in, and any touristy attractions to be found there. I've also heard him read the entire Manhattan Bridge Service Changes pamphlet over the speaker once.
-Alan Scott
(first time posting to subtalk)
Welcome to SubTalk, enjoy!
I know exactly who this conductor is you are talking about, having worked with him once or twice. He is one of the worry worts of the TA discipline process. Please give him a break, he is doing his job. The rule book limits large items during rush hour, mentioning bicycles being allowed during off hours, citing perhaps rule 33A as one of his fears of discipline. I'd appreciate the idiot conductor postings headers changed to reflect a more suitable title. Our conductors are not idiots.
There one C/R on the "E" line that I don't like working with. His annoucement are very slow. At station with transfers he would sound like this, (1 train, 2 train, 3 train, 7 train, 9 train, shuttle train.)After every letter or number he has to say train. Then when he says "Stand Clear of the Doors. He would take another 10 secend to shout the door. He alway though my timeing off is station.
Robert
My favorite C/R of all time is the C/R on The Union Square Wreck train....he was speaking english but yet, they felt a need to subtitle him on the local news programs, his accent was THAT thick.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have video PROFF of this
>>>>>>>>>There one C/R on the "E" line that I don't like working with. His annoucement are very slow. At station with transfers he would sound like this, (1 train, 2 train, 3 train, 7 train, 9 train, shuttle train.)After every letter or number he has to say train. Then when he says "Stand Clear of the Doors. He would take another 10 secend to shout the door. He alway though my timeing off is station.
Would that happen to be the C/R on E-221 job?
The original poster mentioned this incident as having happened @0100, or thereabouts
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>Our conductors are not idiots.
This one sure is. I've worked with him. You mess up, and he'll bang you in in a heartbeat.
Idiot I say!
I would never advocate this knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end of "customer complaints" but given that he's holding the train and making it tardy, perhaps this guy needs two weeks vacation ... know whut I meen?
I sure do. This C/R is also a known pest at Stillwell. Even the supervision can't stand him because as they put it "He is never wrong".
Wow ... those are BIG shoes to fill, being a pest at Stillwell ... well then, use of lethal force is authorized. :)
Well you can't blame him for protecting his job. That reminds me I heard of a story at Van Cortlandt about this C/R on the N Line that they call Mr.Defect because he right every little thing down on the Car Defect sheet..
Oh yeah, good ol Dr. Defect. There should be more like him though, but just not as nitpicky.
This guy isn't doing it to protect his job, he's doing it because he's a pest. I thank God that he stays in the South Section where I rarely work.
Ha Ha, just read it. "Knowingly allow radioactive material to be carried..." haha. So if you see a radiation warning sticker on a box someone is holding and you don't stop him you violate 33a??
Hehe. Made my Monday!!
>>>Our conductors are not idiots. <<
Unfortunately some of them are and are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
Dunno ... but it tells me Heypaul's been looking for the fan window again. :)
He should save the last car for something really big - his ego.
What if you were planning on taking your bike to South Ferry on the 1/9 or 145th Street on the 3?
>>> What if you were planning on taking your bike to South Ferry on the 1/9 or 145th Street on the 3? <<<
Then you have no problem. That was a "B" Division conductor who made the announcement.
Tom
I saw and heard that idiot on the D Train yesterday. The moron delayed his own train telling bikers to bring their bike to the last car and waiting for them to do so.
I got the latest map yesterday and checked it out when i got home. i was bummed to find that they don't do the the colored line maps on the flipside anymore!!! when I was in college I used to have 2 maps up on my walls...one with the actual map and the other had the flipside line maps. Oh well, gotta roll with the changes i guess (apologies to REO Speedwagon). Also I didn't see any V or W trains listed or marked on the map, they didi however have signs on the trains and all over the stations about the Manny B rerouting and it did specify a W train there.
The (W) train will appear, no doubt, on the next map, which will take effect with the Manhattan Bridge flip in late July. That one will also show the (Q) back home on Broadway, and happy to be there.
The (V) and the rerouted (F) (via 63rd) won't show up until November.
:-) Andrew
why? wont the V run until november?
The 63rd St tunnel will not be ready for regular service until November. It was supposed to have been ready in August.
They have not done the line maps in years, since "The Map" came out.
It must have been a while since you got the latest map.
[It must have been a while since you got the latest map.]
Yeah, They haven't done that since 1997, IIRC. That's when the cover of the map was similar to the bus maps, with an enlarged piece of the of the map (namely lower Manhattan0 on the front.
actually it has been quite a while, in fact the other day when i went to the museum was the first time i rode the subway in 10 years!!!
Don't fret.
If your heart is still set on the 1990's style maps, then you could get one on e-bay for about two or three bucks.
I went to the customer service desk at Jay st and asked for the July map, they don't exist yet. Maybe I should try again in July.
Try in August.
How many R142s exactly ran yesterday? Because i only saw 2 sets on the #2 which i thought was weird.
there were about 5 running on the 2 line in a scattered mixture with the redbirds its hard to find them all because the 2 line is the longest IRT line in the system. the 6 had its usual amount of R-142A's always runing either every other train or two or three running in each direction.
Jersey Mike scanned his photographs of the 50th anniversary of the Budd Car, part 2, shindig at Cape May on June 9. He asked me to post them since he doesn't have access to his website at the moment.
Mike's pix
Wow! That's just great!
The last time I was in Cape May (about 8-9 years ago) CMSL hadn't started yet (or at least they didn't have anything running). There was very little to see south of the canal, and in Cape May City it didn't look like there would ever by anything rail there again.
Way cool. Thanks for posting.
Last year was the first service into Cape May City; it formerly terminated at Cold Spring.
I was reading some historical books and I am interested in getting a feeling as to the state of commuter rail operations now, vs, commuter rail operations then. We all know that long distance operations were definitly better then, but with commuter rail things seem to be a bit more of a toss up. Then, more destinations were served and there were more "long distance" commuting options. Now, most of the equipment is new and comfortable while in certain "thens" it looked pretty skanky. There also seems to be a greater train frequency now rather than then. I was also thinking that speeds would be faster now rather than then, but I'm not really one to know.
You can answer this question for any of the following then's: 1970's, 60's, 50's, 40's or 30's.
Also, does anybody have any numbers regarding how popular commuter rail was back in the day and how those numbers compared to today's numbers?
In the late 60's and early 70's, 12 car trains of MP-54's ran frequently between Suburban Station and Wilmington during rush hour. I suspect SEPTA's current service is somewhat less than that.
One difference between commuter rail today and commuter rail in (roughly) the 1950's and earlier is that rush hour peaking has increased.
Starting with Chicago(spent summers there in fifties as kid/teenager)
Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee(North Shore Line) while on paper an ICC regulated RR and actually moving s tiny amount of freight was in fact a major commuter operation serving the northern suburbs. and provided hourly service between Chicago & Milwaukee all day long. The branch to Mundelein had similarly frequent service to the Loop. While the equipment was old and in need of replacement, it was fast service. As the highways got better...and the RR was abandoned 22 Jan 63. The only part of the line now served is the Yellow (Skokie Swift) Line CTA Clearly service now is far less.
The BNSF (former CB&Q) line to Aurora has better service, although this line has always been well served. The Q pioneered the gallery coach in the fifties bring needed AC to the trains. With the famous 3 track line to Aurora there are many zoned expresses and the trains are full.
The ex Rock Island line is clearly busy, but suffered a long decline before METRA investment brought in decent equipment and improved service. While I don't have the numbers, the general trend in Chgo is up. That said, I should point out that the RI, as well as the C&NW and IC lines all had many more 'in town stations' and thus served a different mix of riders. In turn, this also means that in the fifties off peak riders made use of trains for in town transit trips. (In philly terms, think of using Regional rail to get from Penn to Temple, etc)
The Illinois Central (and tenant South Shore) now METRA Electric, is perhaps the most interesting to SubTalkers. When eclectrified in 1928 this catenary fed 1500VDC system featured all high platform MU trains of married-pair cars. When I first used it in the fifties, midday service on the South Chicago Branch was every twenty minutes. Today that branch is once an hour. Many of the rush hour expresses from that branch are long gone as the neighborhood has few residens going to the loop for work. On the main line which goes far outside the city limits, the service pattern reflects the rush hour swarm of suit/worker bees in massive numbers and the route has been extended further south.
The South Shore Line like its cousin the CNSM, once had very frequent service as far as South Bend as well as hourly service to Gary. After many years of financial crises, and attendant decline, ridership is booming and trains are packed. Service patterns are not as frequent as fifty years ago but do reflect a growing market.
Does the South Shore still have street running through South Bend? I saw an old photo of that from years ago, and I wonder if that was eliminated. I know that the Little Joe electrics are no longer operational - if any survive, they are in museums, the rest went to the midwest equivalent of Naparano's. Was that gantlet track removed from the South Shore line, the one that was invloved in the fatal sideswipe accident on the line a couple of years ago?
For one thing, I notice back then that there were either more lines or plans for more lines that served roughy the same amount of people who travel today. Next, there was more service. Example: NYC Harlem Divison, which had trains go up as far north as Chatham (is it near the present day terminus of Wassaic?), the now - defunct Putnam Divison, the also - defunct NY, W, & B (would've made Westchester Cty. and the Bronx as better place to live if it didn't fall on its face in '37), and the New Haven (both main line and Harlem River branch, which, BTW, went by my current residence.) Then there's the LIRR and its many branches, some of which went under either because of neglect, lack of funds, or (as is the case of the Rockaway line) total destruction.
Things dropped off from the high levels of the 40s due to the highways, and only spiked in the 70s due to the oil shortage. Now, with more people around, there may be some manevuvers toward newer lines again. If the willpower is there.
As bad as the M-1s are now, try to imagine rush hour on an MP-54:
There's no A/c on the car. You could always open a window and let the dust and junk in, though.
There's fans on the ceiling. They die in third rail gaps, but run otherwise. Don't get caught in them -they're metal and pretty fast spinning.
The lighting is a bunch of incedecents. Not very bright.
Acceleration is slow. And there's a bit of noise, too, kinda like a low V, but louder.
Braking is slow too. And the top speed is only 65.
The doors are pneumatic. They sometimes work.
The ride is rough, and clunky. But your nice, low, flipover wicker seat is there to comfort you.
There's heat in the winter. Basicaly a bunch of space heaters along the sides. No forced air.
No PA system. Few high level platforms either.
You'll want to hold it in, too. The bathroom is a pedestal with a hole to the ground. Don't use it in the station!
Or, you could have gotten a double decker! They're cozy!
It may sound charming, and for an excursion it isn't bad, but day in/day out, it's not that great.
In the early 70s I remember what is now known as NJTrasit Rail Operations being a perfect mess. Late trains, no trains and ghost trains. They HAVE come a long way.
Peace,
ANDEE
I ride NJ Transit from Jersey Avenue (New Brunswick)to NY Penn on the Northeast Corridor line every weekday to and from work.
Believe it or not, service to and from this station hasn't changed all that much in 100 years. I did a term paper last year that surveyed the service, and except for weekend service (this is no weekend service today), the service patterns did not change much.
40 to 50 years ago, many Pennsylvania RR commuter trains terminated in Jersey City near the Exchange Place PATH station. I don't think there was as much rush hour commuter service directly into NY Penn today than there is today. The Jersey Central also terminated in Jersey City, along with the Erie (Pavonia PATH station).
NY Penn is a horrible place to come in and out of. Amtrak should be ashamed. I have no idea how they are going to shoehorn more trains and passengers into and out of it. The 2 track tunnel under the Hudson is at capacity now, and they are planning to run more trains with the completion of the Newark Airport and Secaucus Transfer stations. (I'd like to know where these people are going to find places to stand on already packed trains.)
See today's Harrisburg Patriot-News article about a Commuter-rail funding decision awaited from the FTA regarding a 10-station, 28.5-mile first segment of Corridor One from Elizabethtown to just west of Mechanicsburg. CAT (Capital Area Transit) is competing with 100 other "new-start" proposals. (Though I'm salivating at the prospect, I'm not holding my breath.)
"...The common thread of discussion at yesterday's meeting was intermodalism..."
"...restore local commuter-rail service, starting in Corridor One, which involves the 54 miles of track between Lancaster and Carlisle..."
I'm not sure what commuter rail there was in the past, save Harriburg Railways and Valley Railways trolleys, which ceased service in 1933. They may refer to the PRR's service between Harrisburg-Lancaster-Philadelphia, which was considered "commuter" well into the Amtrak "Keystone" era.
"...Part of the region's growing congestion is tied to one thing: its location. The Harrisburg region is within a two-day drive from two-thirds of the markets in the United States..."
Amen. If Burlington, VT can have commuter rail, so can Harrisburg! No definite word on station locations other than Harrisburg Internationl Airport and City Island, which has parking facilities. Also no word on type of equipment to be used. I know there are FRA ragulations against running LRVs and freight trains on the same trackage, and so far only the eastern leg has catenary. Likely we'll see DMUs, but who knows...
Harrison in NJ on PATH is a great spot. Lookie what I saw. I know everyone knows what this is! :)
Wow, an HHP-8! Was this train on time? :O)
I don't know. It was going from Newark to NY. I just got REALLY lucky. I wish I could have gotten the Acela. At first I thought that's what it was until I studied the picture more carefully. I have to go back to Harrison on a cooler day and hang out. I have some more pics, too. I have to put them on my site. It's a good thing the loco wasn't going too fast. :)
I've been meaning to take pix there myself. Always seemed like an industrial neighborhood. Did u feel safe there with your camera?
I felt pretty safe. The people boarding there looked OK, and I didn't leave the station. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I have heard, from a reliable source who lives there, that Harrison is a much nicer and safer town that one would gather from its appearance in the station area.
I would agree. Harrison is pretty low-key.
If it was cooler, I would have stayed longer. It's weird the way the outside tracks are third rail, and the inside stuff is pentograph. I'd like to see the day when PATH goes beyond Newark, maybe on Amtrak's ROW. I would assume it would be cheaper to just equip the track with third rail than to build a whole new line.
The side tracks between Harison and DOCK used to be used by BOTH PRR and PATH trains. The PRR Towers HUDSON and DOCK controled the PATCH trackage in that area and even today there is still an interlocked connection at HUDSON. PATH is an FRA railroad and if its cars were cab signal equipped they would have no problem running on the NEC.
If it was cooler, I would have stayed longer. It's weird the way the outside tracks are third rail, and the inside stuff is pentograph. I'd like to see the day when PATH goes beyond Newark, maybe on Amtrak's ROW. I would assume it would be cheaper to just equip the track with third rail than to build a whole new line.
There has been talk of extending PATH to Newark Airport.
There has been talk of extending PATH to Newark Airport.
This probably won't happen, but I suspect that there's at least a 50-50 chance of it being extended to the new rail station where it could connect with the monorail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went there to video the Ringling Bros circus train a couple months ago. The thought never occurred to me that there might be a safety issue. Some of the PATH engineers waved and said Hi when I was on the east end of the platform.
OH yeah, great location indeed.
I took some shots in the late 70's of Metroliner MUs with and without Pennsy pinstripes. Also an Amtrak consist with a "W.C. Fields" GG-1 on the point. They were called W.C. Fields because of their red noses.
And of course PATH PA-1,2 & 3 cars in the original green paint !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Harrison is a pretty good place, but there are two better ones. The problem w/ Harrison is the slow speeds through DOCK interlocking, frequent PATH trains blocking shots and an absolutely lousy backdrop.
Here are the better locations.
RAHWAY: Island platform puts you litterally in the middle of the action. Amtrak trains blow through at hi-speed. Hosts both NJT NEC and NJ Coast line with a hansome mix of Push Pulls and MU's. There are also occasional Conrail freight trains. Three platform tracks for trains-at-platform shots. UNION's home signals are at the south end of the platform and on the N/B side the crossovers extend into the platform length. And the best part...6, count'em 6, tracks. Nice station complex with food and bathrooms.
TRENTON: Two island platforms put you right in the action. NJT, SETPA and Amtrak all stop here. Terminal point for both SEPTA and NJT so lots of layup and crossover moves. Signals on the classic, early 1900's platform. 5 station tracks, 2 express tracks and 1 layup track. FAIR tower and many signal bridges about. Express Metroliners blow through on the express tracks at 80-100 mph. Well lit for night timed exposure shots. Windowed passenger concourse over the tracks with an amazing view. Nice station complex with food and bathrooms and places to buy tickets.
Anyone have trouble on the Northbound 2 and 5 today? The switch at Grand Concourse got messed up. I put on my two-way. They sent one 2 up to Lenox to relay, and then spiked the switch to allow the next uptown 2 to go through. The uptown 5's terminated on the upper level. This was around 1:30. If they don't get it fixed by rush hour, we could be looking at armagedon.
Thanks for the info. I was just about to get on my way back down to Lennox. Now I'll head over to the Lex.
What is a curtain wall? Are they the walls between the tracks? What do they look like? I was reading about some of the subway lines on this site and it mentions curtain walls.
Yes.
Hmmmm... This is a tricky question.
The subway lines described on this site often do mention curtain walls. Here are two instances:
1) Describing Roosevelt Island, the web site states: "...Between the tracks there is a low curtain wall between the two tracks with alternating niches for transit workers."
2) Describing York Street Station: "York Street. (F) York Street IND station round pillars and curtain wall. 12/26/1997. Photo by Wayne Whitehorne."
There are other instances.
By definition, a curtain wall is a nonbearing exterior building wall, between piers or columns, that is not supported by the beams or girders of a skeleton frame.
In other words, a curtain wall is the skin on a building.
It is not uncommon for architectural and engineering terms to be misused in common parlance. The important part is that a curtain wall is always exterior and nonbearing.
The above two examples are incorrect technical uses of the term. They are not necessarily incorrect casual uses, and I never saw a compelling reason to suggest that the web site descriptions should be corrected.
MATT-2AV
Yes, I suppose they should have said "partition"?
Anyone else notice the lack of pictures of R-30s in their final (90s) paint scheme? It's kind of strange that no one would take many photographs of them in their last days, other than on that final fantrip. Come to think of it, there aren't too many late 80s / early 90s pictures of any car class on the site! Did the TA temporarily impose a no photography rule or something?
i noticed that too !! thanks !!
I'd be glad to put them up should someone contribute any.
I think the big group of subway photographers had moved on by then, Joe Testagrose, Doug Grotjahn, Steve Zabel, etc. Probably due to changes in their lives and disgust with the way the system deteriorated in the 70s and 80s. I think that's a big part of the reason there's not many photos from that period.
I myself didn't regularly spend time in NYC till late 1993. I also think that a lot of the current photographers were influenced by this site coming around in late 1994. So it's not unreasonable to see a big gain in photos from the late 90s early 2000's.
One of the things I've noticed about the older photographs here and elsewhere is that the older photographs are very well composed and exposted, frequently more so than most contemporary photographs.
Has anybody else noticed this or know why it is?
-Robert King
One of the things I've noticed about the older photographs here and elsewhere is that the older photographs are very well composed and exposted, frequently more so than most contemporary photographs.
Has anybody else noticed this or know why it is?
I've noticed that too, and not just on this site. One thing that comes to mind is the fact that cameras today are easier to use and (if adjusted for inflation) probably cheaper than in years past. People may have a more casual attitude toward photography, and therefore don't take quite as much care when it comes to photographing subways or anything else.
I hadn't thought of that, but one thing that did occur to me a while after I sent the post is that there might also be a filtering effect over time as the poor or rejectable old pictures end up being thrown out or put away never to see the light of day again, only a disproportional amount of good stuff gets put on display, and that this might not have happened yet with the newer material.
Just a thought.
-Robert King
That could be too. Why would Joe T. etc bother scanning old slides that weren't decent? I'm sure eventually the collection of newer photos online will get pruned down as well although in the digital age it's easier to keep any old thing...
>>> One of the things I've noticed about the older photographs here and elsewhere is that the older photographs are very well composed and exposted, frequently more so than most contemporary photographs.
Has anybody else noticed this or know why it is? <<<
I think there are less photographers now who are railfans, and more railfans with easy to use cameras.
I remember when I was photographing with a 35mm SLR I carried three lenses and filters with me, and manually set the f stop to get the effects I wanted. I would compose each photograph before shooting, including determining the natural lighting and any fill in lighting I would need, and would take a couple of cover shots with slight changes in settings. I would usually have the film developed with contact prints, and decide which photos I wanted to print in a larger size, maybe 10 from a 36 exposure roll of film. The ones I did not think were up to par I threw away.
Now most of the cameras I see are fully automatic point and shoot toys, and most people do not want to lug around the extra lenses and other equipment to get the really good photos. The new electronic cameras seem to be particularly weak in the ability to make the necessary adjustments to get special lighting effects. I guess they figure you will make the changes you want on your computer later. Those who are more interested in documenting which trains they have seen rather than composing a picture, tend to keep all the pictures taken. Therefore there will be a lower ratio of good pictures to the total number of pictures.
Tom
I agree with almost everything you said & it is like other things of today ( like the r-142s ) there is no sense of quality today
quanity is the rule !! It seems that like toays railfans yesterdays photographers had a sense of QUALITY about them & you see
it in thier photos that they take. Both robert kings post and yours make all the sense in the world and are 100% true !!
There are (some) good digital cameras but you have to shoot with them in the way that they are, a unique design & format it to suit!
A lot of that's true, Tom. Even I'm getting a bit lazy, often times framing large on my slides and cropping down on the computer, since I'm not doing slide shows any more. And although I do carry a point'n'shoot Minolta as a backup, I still manually focus and set the exposure for most of my shots... carrying a pair of Canons with six lenses (including a 100-300 zoom and a 325-650 half-binocular adapted from an Exakta mount) or a pair of Exaktas with seven (28mm, 35mm TS, 52mm, 55mm, 90mm, 135mm, and the half-binocular). I still burn a lot of film, figuring it's cheaper to shoot now rather than have to return later because I messed up - although I need to go back and reshoot Woodbridge on the NJCL anyway, even the "good" shots I sent Dave for the web page are bad.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've noticed the gap as well -- covering most of the 80's and about half of the 90's. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about it now except keep taking pictures so we don't create another gap.
Something I also notice, nobody here hasn't submitted graffiti interior train pictures on this site why didn't people took interior train pictures during the graffiti days? Also nobody even took interior pictures on the retired Redbirds R30 trains?
why didn't people took interior train pictures during the graffiti days?
Because we didn't want to waste film on garbage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Emotion seconded and carried ... all there was inside the cars was magic marker nonsense ... much like many of the exteriors as well. There was only a VERY small number of car taggings that could be considered as art and I never saw any on the INSIDE.
Since we have not had a good political debate lately - how about this one? Did anyone catch the mini-flap on the news the other day, over some ads in City bus shelters that some thought are 'inappropriate'?
You all remember Mr. Chuckie (clean as a Boy Scout's undies) Schummer? What could he have to do with this? Well, it seems that the person who holds the exclusive contract with the MTA for advertising in those city bus shelters is none other than Mrs. Chuckie. Of course she used her maiden name to throw the media off the scent. Does that smell of 'something' or what?
I'm so disillusioned, I could ........ wait, isn't he a democrat?
Oh well!!!!!
She needs to sell her interest in the bus stop shelters to Bob Toricelli :-)
Now that it's out, I suppose that Chuckies votes for mass transit funding will be looked at under a microscope. But by whom? The liberal press won't cast a shadow over one of their own. But will Mrs. Chuckie have to sell the contract now?
How long has she had the contract? Those shelters have been around a lot longer than Chuckie has been in the Senate.
Anyone in South Brooklyn wishing a direct ride for 6th ave will be taking the F. Last time the flip was on, there was culver express service down there. How 'bout this time around?
You use the word "restoration" while referring to the NYCTA. Deterioration is all they can accomplish. It's all falling apart.
(Anyone in South Brooklyn wishing a direct ride for 6th ave will be taking the F. Last time the flip was on, there was culver express service down there. How 'bout this time around?)
I actually suggested this in a letter to the MTA. While acknowledging that the Culver does not require more trains today (I ride it so I know), I pointed out that express service might draw diaffected riders from the D/Q, N and B. Lots of spots where two lines are within walking distance.
But they don't have the cars to extend the V to Church, which would be required to give "inner" F riders a fair deal. And even if they did, the TA is reluctant to improve service given that if too few people ride it sucks money away from the rest of the system, yet is impossible to be rid of.
You gotta do it from Kings Highway all the way to Jay. Forget about stopping at Bergen if it's a mess.
Not only would you need more cars to extend the V down to Church, but the G too, so it doesn't get in the way turning at 4th Avenue.
>>You gotta do it from Kings Highway all the way to Jay. Forget about stopping at Bergen if it's a mess.<<
You can't use the Culver express tracks from 4th av to Jay due to that whole bum deal of a tower at Bergen (Signals leading up to any switch in that area are out)
>>Not only would you need more cars to extend the V down to Church, but the G too, so it doesn't get in the way turning at 4th Avenue.<<
Not enough cars right now (yet)
<< You can't use the Culver express tracks from 4th av to Jay due to that whole bum deal of a tower at Bergen (Signals leading up to any switch in that area are out)>>
I read someplace on this site this is going to be fixed.
>>I read someplace on this site this is going to be fixed.<<
Supposedly. But I am doubtful that this will happen anytime soon. To be honest, they should have fixed the problem from day #1. But, they let it sit and fester, and now, the whole signal system around that area is screwed up. The Upper Level crossover and the crossover from express to local have been 'cut out' so that the signals could work properly for 'normal' operation.
Yes, that's right, an actual trolley might actually be running sometime in the near future, maybe even tomorrow. Ex-Shaker Heights #70, now at the BHRA is almost ready to be actually run. The control system should work, running off the batteries, since the charger-regulating mechanism seems broken.
So if you want to see this thing run, feel free to drop by, between about 1 and 6 pm on weekdays, and it is best to call in advance to make sure somebody is actually there. The number is 718-246-2921, and the trolley itself is located in Red Hook, Brooklyn, at the southernmost end of Van Brunt St.
Bravo!
In what way does the MG set and voltage regulation equipment appear to be broken?
-Robert King
Nothing major, the MG is in excellent shape, its the regulator that was acting up (putting out 28 vdc instead of 35). A case of 55 year old technology needing attention. Thanks for asking, though!
Thanks also for the tech help from the car's former caretakers in Ohio and some fellow subtalkers who lent a hand this week.
Today, we tested the car with the motors cut out, and everything works fine, the MG produces the right voltage, and the control systems seem to work. Tomorrow, we will try to actually get the thing to move.....
Does anyone know the car numbers of the first redbirds to be scrapped? (the ones that I have seen mentioned here as being in the yard ready to be scrapped right now) And if not, do you know at least if they are R28's? Thanks.
If you read just a little bit more you'll find a post with the subject "Scrap Rosters"....
Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. I asked because I just bought one of the car number signs for R28 7921 at the GCT TM store. I figured that since they have the sign for sale, that car must have already been scrapped or be in line to be scrapped. But it isn't listed on your new Scrap Roster page and it's also not listed on your page of "Cars scrapped before the rest of their series due to who knows what." So has anyone seen any evidence of R28 7921 being scrapped? Also, I'd think that everyone here would be pretty interested in buying the car number signs from the redbirds, so consider this a public service announcement in case you didn't know that the TM sold these things. I didn't know until three weeks ago, since I didn't remember seeing the signs a few months ago when I was at the GCT TM store.
Some of those might be leftovers from when the number plates were replaced (during GOH?); I remember seeing a lot of R-26/28 plates at the Brooklyn Transit Museum store within the last year or so. I need to check GCT again; last I saw, the only number plates there were R-21/22 and original R-44 numbers.
Yeah, every time I've gone all I've seen are R21/22 plates and I guess what are the original R44 numbers. So when I saw the R28 plate I grabbed it, thinking it was off a just scrapped redbird. Oh well. It's only $5.00, and I can always return it within 30 days and wait for an authentic scrapper plate. Thanks for the info.
Oh well. It's only $5.00, and I can always return it within 30 days and wait for an authentic scrapper plate.
You mean you wouldn't rather have an original? :)
You've got a point there. So you're saying that if my plate is one that was replaced a while ago, it is probably the original plate that came on the car when it was delivered?
Maybe; I don't know how often number plates were replaced.
Do you think that the R-26/R-28s will be scrapped first?
BMTJeff
Hello all, I have a question reguarding the New York City subway. What is the best line to ride in terms of safety? I do not want to ride through a very bad part of town. Thankyou.
Hmmm....The whole system is pretty safe during the day, and I've ridden it as late as 2:30am and as early as 5:00am without any problems. I would assume the safest line is the "S" 42nd Street Shuttle, since the trains are short and there are a lot of police at both ends of the line. But of course, the "S" isn't that much fun of a ride, annakownna it's only 1 minute long and has no railfan window. But to answer your question, if you're really really really as concerned about safety as Alan Greenspan is concerned about the economy, then stick to subway lines within the borough of Manhattan and ride between the hours of 7am and 10pm. And of course, don't put your wallet in your back pocket, hold your child's hand, blah blah blah blah etc.
Overall, I'd say as long as you're riding at a reasonable time, pretty much any subway line's a safe one, but if we're trying to avoid "bad neighborhoods" I'd expand your Safe Lines list to include the N, the F, and the B in southern Brooklyn, with the B andthe F giving great views of *everything* along their elevated portions. The D and Q seem good and safe to me also...for that matter the R, too.
Though it was at 36th street that I was punched by some random guy who was looking for a fight with someone i guess, my freshman year of high school....But that only happened once, and I still ride through that station every day.
-West End Scott
Hmm. Maybe the SIR's the safest line of them all?
The Sea Beach is a great ride and a safe ride. I know it not elevated but when you whoosh through those small tunnels it is a real rush. Besides, what do you expect Sea Beach Fred to say anyway?
The N (it's sister counterpart - R line) is probably the safest line in the system because it's always crowded and goes in low crime neighborhoods. It also scores high when it comes to transfering between lines. But when it comes to schedule service, it scores very low.
N Broadway Line
Ps: I was hoping to be put back on the express track, however, with the recent changes coming, that isn't going to happen. Therefore, this screen name will be changing to "N Broadway Local." This will be effected when the Manhattan Bridge changes go into effect in Sepetember. Unfortunately........
You inadvertantly hit a raw nerve with me without meaning to. Yes, it is that damn bridge controversy. Why the hell the my Sea Beach (your N) is being shafted again just crusts the hell out of me. We get two new Brighton types over the Manny B but not the Sea Beach. The damn TA. Other than that blood brother have a great weekend. We need all the N boys to stick together through thick and thin.
I dont the safest line but the most dangerous would probably be the S and a,c in brooklyn, but only at nite though.
What is so bad about this line? Are there just not very many people around?
I've ridden the Franklin Av. at around 9pm at night a few wks ago, a plenty of people on it, too. Balances out the fact that I was riding a one man operated train through what's supposedly the worst neighborhood in the city.
To me, it's really not which line is the safest, but what time is it safe to ride. I can't really say, though, 'cause NYC Transit's night service and ridership is roughly equivalent to the height of rush hour in several other cities.
What's so bad about that neighbourhood, been around Franklin Ave (IRT) around 10PM, didn't look dangerous at all.
Arti
NOTHING NOTHING IS WRONG WITH IT AT ALL, people here like to make stupid assumptions.
The A and C (aka D/4/J/L Lines) goes through some of the worse areas of the City. Therefore, I agree, the A scores the lowest when it comes to safety. Meanwhile, the N receives the highest points when it comes to getting a person to their destination in one piece.
N Broadway Line
You people are just clueless as to what the facts are, District 30 Transit Bureau NYPS which is responsible for the Fulton Line, A train, has the highest Apprehension to call raiting in the system, which means THEY DO THEIR JOBS EFFECTIVELY, the F culver line or District 34 is a very busy brooklyn district even though it goes throgh relatively low crime areas, Dont come without facts boyos.
You people are just clueless as to what the facts are, District 30 Transit Bureau NYPD which is responsible for the Fulton Line, A train, has the highest Apprehension to call raiting in the system, which means THEY DO THEIR JOBS EFFECTIVELY, the F culver line or District 34 is a very busy brooklyn district even though it goes throgh relatively low crime areas, Dont come without facts boyos.
Sorry for the typo
Most New York City subway lines go through neighborhoods of varying socioeconomic status, from ritzy to dirt poor. How that translates into security is a matter of perception more than of reality, as subway crime really isn't very high.
I'm going to provide the same advice I always provide people who ask whether a certain area is "safe:"
1. No matter where you are, be alert and aware of your surroundings.
2. Don't have money hanging out of your pockets, or a camera hanging loosely around your neck, or jewelry that is easily seen (and grabbed).
2. If you really want to know what parts of the subway are "safer" than others, contact the New York Police Department, 1 Police Plaza, New York NY 10038. Any answers given on SubTalk or in the street are opinions, based on perception (or hearsay) and not on hard numbers.
Have a good time!
David
oh its all safe , just dont run into people like me, we will 1. take your jewelry 2. Take your money 3. Harass and physically abuse you if necessary 4. Vandalize your jackets and clothes with spray paint 5.Make you sorry you made eye contact, otherwise the system is safe and reliable most of the time ENJOY! New York Welcomes you (BTW i give NY a pretty bad name)
Yo seven-UP, you tell them my man! Nothing like inviting the fresh meat to play late at night and hunting them like wild turkeys. Let the TOURIST SUBWAY GAMES BEGIN.
Sponsored by the makers of running shoes that go fast. "GO ON RUN RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN YOU CAN'T CATCH ME I'M THE GINGER BREAD MAN" and the people who bring you stupid drinks to make you run fast Blerhk!!!! How bad can they be!
All the lines are pretty safe in midtown and lower Manhattan, because all the cars are usually full of people there -- it's the empty cars at the end of the trains that usually are the most problamatic in Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx or upper Manhattan if some problem group of local wayward yutes suddenly shows up. If you stay towards the center of the cars (near the conductor's position) you shouldn't have any trouble on any of the lines.
But if you want to pick a "safe" line, I would go with the F/N/Q/R on the BMT and IND and the 1 or the 7 and the 42nd St. shuttle on the IRT.
oh for the love of god... just what this town needs - more tourists on the damned subway...
-Joe
(only half sarcastic)
remember that tour brochure we saw last time? PHUN PHACTORY what laughs
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
For the love of God, that is too funny!
We should start our own tours. It would provide us with hours of fun, and make tourists mysteriously dissapear from the system and city.
HAHAHAHAHA you sucka Playland pal!! You kill me with your incredible Mr. Burns schemes. Great idea a little like the Tourist Subway Games.
Marty , LivoniaLand waits for you, your wife, family and friends, and when you have kids, because you are my friend HALF OFF, I also start a special summer camp forsuburban kids, i'll teach them valuable important lessons I have learned.
Joe come on down to Washington we like tourists. We better its the only thing going...
hey joe, lets take UE to DC
road tripping. maybe!
Even on your subways?
I knew a guy who went there, and tried to stop the door as it was closing - apparently the conductor or whoever had to come over and manually open it, while everyone looked at him as if he was... well... not just a tourist, but a total ass.
Anyone else notice that at the very ends of the bridge, the track is full-width wooden ties set in steel roadbed? How did they do that?
I've probably seen it since I stare at that location every day out of the front of my Q. I'm not sure I understand why it would be so outrageous, but I'll look at it closely tomorrow.
"the track is full-width wooden ties set in steel roadbed? How did they do that?"
They are not really wooden ties, they are actually made of Jello! Watch, if it gets too hot outside, they will all melt and end up in the river.
Elias
The views from the south side of the Manhattan bridge are incredible...just something to think about to make the transition go a little easier.
-Alan Scott
I got a few better ones:
1 - Bidirectional xfer from and to the 6
2 - More useful xfers at 42nd/B'wy than 42/6
3 - One less stop between bridge and 14th, 34th, 42nd
4 - Three less stops between bridge and Columbus Circle area
Can anyone think of other advantages?
Easier connection to the J (esp. on weekends). Can take an express directly from the southern div. or midtown and the right car will being you right to the transfer.
No more having to get off an express to catch the F 2 stops, or get off at Grand, and walk to the Bowery.
Now, if only they would send the M through, I could have a one transfer alternative to the L, which requires walking the rest of the way home, or climbing up to the shuttle.
(1 - Bidirectional xfer from and to the 6)
That's the big one. Hopefully they'll have the transfer to the #6 at Bleeker built before the switch back to the north side (assuming they find more cracks on the south side).
I just hope we get 25 years out of the bridge after all this work. Given that the system was collapsing from 1967 to 1980, no one has experienced the benefit of a well-run subway system with four direct express sevices to Midtown on two sets of tracks. Ever.
Except to the other IND lines, transfers are better all around on Broadway. (Better to the 1/2/3/9, better to the 4/5/6, better to the 7, better to the shuttle, better to the J/M/Z, better to the L.)
The switch also brings an express alternative to the long N/R local ride through Brooklyn. Sixth Avenue loses its, but the express only bypasses two stops to begin with, so that's not a big deal.
For us railfans, the express run is more interesting. Sorry, I know it's a favorite for many, but I get absolutely nothing out of an express run through a dark tunnel where I can't see the local stations zoom by.
Sound like anybody we know?
E_DOG
Got any recomendations?
Share with us your most frustrating ride, longest delay (and where stuck and why) or experience with broken down trains. Anyone ever had to exit a train and walk the tunnels?
1990ish on the 1/9 from 42 to 86. The train was held at each station for about ten minutes -- and between stations, also for ten minutes. I never found out why. The delay at 79 was particularly long. One passenger went through the turnstiles to ask the S/A for a transfer to the M104; she not only refused to give him a free transfer (block ticket, I guess) to the bus, she also told him he had to pay another fare to go back through the turnstiles. And then the C/R closed the train doors with no prior warning, leaving a few passengers stranded on the platform (I got to the door just in time).
And you never found out why. Did you miss dinner? I would have been hot!
Your heading says "NY Rider", but I'll go ahead and butt in even though I'm a Chicagoan:
By far my longest delay was a couple months ago when we were stuck on a Red Line train in the subway for upwards of 45 minutes. Train filled to crush capacity due to rush hour and a Cubs game, no lights, no air, no information from the T/O. We eventually popped open the side doors and walked out through the tunnel. Our delay had been caused by a train fire at the stop ahead of us, and it still me a couple more hours to get home. I wrote about the ordeal on SubTalk and even made a brief appearance on the TV news that night.
Other delays which are shorter but almost equally frustrating usually happen when I'm in a situation where I absolutely CANNOT be late. I can ride the CTA for weeks at a time without a single delay, but the one day I'm on my way to a job interview or to catch a flight, they invaribly find a way to make me late. Such an incident happened this morning on my way to my first day of work at my new job, and naturally, there's a 20-minute delay on the Red Line. (And if I had opted to take the 147 express bus instead, we no doubt would have been stuck in a traffic jam on Lake Shore Drive while the Red Line would have run like clockwork.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Such an incident happened this morning on my way to my first day of work at my new job...
Glad to hear you've found employment again... hopefully this one will work out...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad to hear you've found employment again... hopefully this one will work out...
Thanks... I hope it works out, too. At the very least, it can't possibly be much worse than where I was before. (Okay, I suppose it is possible, but I'd rather not find out!)
This new job is actually fairly closely related to the city's efforts to expand O'Hare airport (see my other posting on that subject). I'm working for the architecture firm that's coordinating the ongoing soundproofing of houses near the airport. Not exactly the most glamorous design work on earth, but the position is only temporary until they transfer me downtown in a few months where I'll be doing real design work.
I'll be working out of a small field office on the grounds of O'Hare itself, but I'll be spending most of my time on actual job sites taking field measurements and supervising contractors. This will be a most-welcome break from sitting in a stuffy corporate office 50+ hours a week.
Also, the success of this soundproofing program will be used by the City to help justify the much-needed expansion of O'Hare. (This is exactly why the Suburban O'Hare Commission is opposed to the soundproofing program, of all things... Gotta love NIMBY politics. I think their barely-disguised intention is to see O'Hare -- along with the rest of Chicago -- simply drop away into Lake Michigan.) As much as I hate the idea of kissing up to suburbanites who were dumb enough to buy houses near the airport, at least I can feel good knowing this will indirectly help the city get O'Hare expanded.
Thanks to all those who expressed their support during my five weeks of gainful unemployment. At least I was able to make good use of the time to get started on the CTA Line-by-Line section on nycsubway.org... Look for the rest to be finished soon!
-- David
Chicago, IL
What happin to other Job that you have?
Congratulations. But please don't think for a moment that what you're doing isn't important or is not appreciated.
A lot of people will appreciate the soundproofing and understand their quality of life will be improved by it. Suburban NIMBY, more often than not, means a few loudmouths who were elected by no one to represent anybody's interests. It's easy to be ignorant and throw rocks, and NIMBYs are good at it. It takes more time and commitment for advocates to set out the case for something, and many don't have the time. Message: People in the community support what you do.
in the words of the camp commander (Bridge...Kwai)
Be happy in your work!
more seriously, lame as these homeowners are IMHO, the soundproofng is a good thing on its own (and might it improve 'weatherization'?). Best of all you will be out there where the blurprints confront reality. Best of luck!
The very best of luck to you my friend !
Gettting a job that you like is such a rare thing, enjoy it as much as you can.
Mr t__:^)
I guess I can also butt in here, despite being from Philadelphia.
After 2 years of riding the Broad Street Lines, I can think of only 2 major delays, one where I was stuck for about 30 minutes at Girard Station, and lost around 5-10 more minutes due to the slow ride from Girard to Erie. I believe that this was on the morning of Haloween, 2000. On my third day of school in 9th Grade, my train was held about 20 minutes in the tunnel between Erie and Olney due to "signal problems," but luckily both times the principal (or president) of the school knew about this so we didn't get marked late. I have found the BSL very reliable, unlike some phl.transportation posters.
Around 1997 i got on an A train in manhattan, 59 st i think. I was waiting for the doors to close but they didn't until about 25 minutes later. and when the train finnaly started moving it would stop about every 10 minutes. it took about 2 hours to get to Jay St.
When a building collapsed along 5th av last year. I was on the 6th av lines uptown. As we approached the Manhattan side Portal, a D was stopped in front of the Q I was on. We waited there for 10 minutes. Then, we arrived at Grand, and waited for another 20 mins. Then we waited at B'way Lafayette for what seemed like an eternity. Even the T/O was mad. And, The F (which would have been running fine) was experiencing a delay elsewhere. Finally we reached W4th st where I just went upstairs and got an A train.
This was last year I think, I was heading to Far Rockaway on the A, but they close dFulton AVe service from Jay St. to Utica Avenue, Had to get shuttle bus, rode train from W4th to jay to catch suttle, took 3.5 hours to PLayland B98th St. which usually takes 1.5 hrs.
On Oct. 13th, 1995 (a Saturday, but still an omen), I was down at my high school doing orientation for prospective students. It had been raining fiercely all day, and I had only one fare on my MetroCard (the blue one) and no money on me. I decided to walk toward the F instead of the 6 (the school was on 16th and 6th), hoping not to get my Army uniform wet. I should have known that the IND does not perform well in the rain (notoriously bad drainage). The F comes, carries us to 34th, and were stuck for 15 mins. Then we move to 47-50 sts, and the train goes OOS due to a flood at Queens Plaza (cutting off Lexington Av station). The train goes up towards 57th to get turned.
I run over to the southbnd platform to get some dtown train back to 42nd so I could take the 7 to GCT. An eternity passes before an E (that's right folks, an E) pulls in on the nbnd express tracks. Announcments had it going up to 205th st. as the D (there was a GO on the Manny B. that day, with few Ds available.) Natually, I do a bee - line to catch it. I get on, but its bursting at the seams. Slowly but surely, we work our way up the west side to the Bronx. I decide to get off at Yankee Stadium to double back on the 4 to 125th.
That was a mistake. It took forever for the 4 to come to 161st, and we moved slowly to 149th. Mott switches us over to the express track at 149th, but to no avail. We're stuck for 20 mins just south of 149th due to signal problems (caused by the downpour); it got to the point that the crew spoke of reversing back to the station. But we press on anyway, bypassing 138th and going to 125th. Just before I got off, I heard the C/R say that they were over a half - hour late.
I go to the upper level to wait for the 6. R-36 mainlines pull in. Its very slow going to 3rd Av - 138th st. because of congestion. When we finally pull in to the station, we sit there for 30 mins because of signal problems, and then the crew gets the order from Command Ctr to discharge and go OOS. So all of us passengers are standing in the station, bascially stranded. I'm especially screwed 'cause I have no money whatsoever, no phone money, no cab money, no card money, nothing.
This story has a happy ending, though. After about 20 mins, the crew gets the order to re-enter service (the train never left), and to take it slowly up to Pelham. So all of us relieved passengers get back on board, and we work our way up the line. I make it back to Parkchester, nearly three hours after leaving school (and its a forty minute trip from Pkchstr to Union Square.)
Here's my own personal account. This occurred before I was on SubTalk, and part of me has always wondered what happened that crazy night. Nothing like this has ever happened to me on the subway, and I was hoping someone here could shed some light on just what was going on.
We were returning to Manhattan on the 1 after visiting friends in Riverdale late one Friday night/Saturday morning back in August of 1999.
We boarded a train at 242-VCP, and waited just under half an hour for the train to depart. This should have alerted me to the fact that something was amiss on the 1 that evening, but I was with friends, and we didn't pay too much attention.
We were finally ready to depart, and the conductor announced that this was a number 1 train to South Ferry. The train was signed as a 1. If the train was signed as a shuttle, I would have suspected that there was a GO. We headed out of the station at about 12:30 in the morning.
Now here's where this story gets bizarre. At 225th Street, the conductor announced that we would be backing in to 215th street on the wrong side. We headed to 215th Street, crossed onto the center track, and then came to a stop.
We must have waited for 5 minutes before the train reversed directions. I believe an operator walking to the other side of the train passed us in one of the cars. We reversed direction, headed back up the center track they have up there and came to a stop again. We waited another five minutes or so, and the same gentleman was seen walking back the direction he came. We changed direction once more, and headed down to 215th Street on the wrong side.
We stopped at 215th Street, the doors opened as normal, and then the conductor announced that we would be heading downtown to 207th street on the correct side. The afore mentioned procedure was repeated, except in reverse. By my count, we made a total of four directional changes in the vicinity of 215th Street.
We proceeded downtown to 137th Street. At 145th Street, the conductor announced that 137th Street would be the last stop on this train. We proceeded to 137th Street, where we crossed over to what I believe was the center track, and then to the uptown side of the station. We were let off; being told that another train would pick us up on the same side of the platform.
Another 1 train did head up to terminate at 137th Street, and then take us back down to 96th. We did not get to 96th Street untill something like 2 in the morning.
And that was, by far, my worst experience ever -- the interminable ride from 242-VCP to 96th Street,
MATT-2AV
I saw a Mini-MVM's(I know this is not the right name for them, can't remenber what they are called.) working today at 34st on the 1,2,3,9. I when to see how it work and when I went to MetroCards get a new cards and there was some thing called "Card Information". I put me card in and it get me the balance and other info. The TA also put back the "Trade In" ferures on them. I wonder if the MVM's are doing to get it back to one day.
P.S. sorry for the speeling
Robert
They are called MetroCard Express Machines or MEMs.
Thanks for the info.
Robert
On Wednesday, I started by taking Breda 3094 and Breda 2058 to Smithsonian. Speeds on the red line were raised. Once I exited, I immediately saw the redbird sitting on the grass. I spent 25 minutes scrolling the roll signs and writing the readings. They also had the motorman's cab open and I posed at the controls. They also had Orion VI 6357 from Manhattanville on display.
I set out to Union Station and took Rohr 1177 and Breda 4002. I boarded Amtrak Metroliner 114, the first time I rode a Metroliner since I took Acela in December. I rode in the quiet car but the sounds created by the train don't really make it that way. My Discman skipped several times (never happened on Acela) and I had to hold on to walk through the train. Also, the bathroom is way too cramped.
Once at 30th Street, I headed for the MFL after picking up new Amtrak schedules. New Acelas will start on weekdays at various times. I noted new 7 AM and 2 PM departures from DC and more stops were added to 2180 and 2183.
Once on the MFL, I rode out to 69th Street on 1146, took photos there, then took trains 1127, 1208, 1116, 1119, and 1065 on a trip back to Center City, taking photos on the way at Millbourne, 56th, 40th, and 46th. I got off the last train at City Hall.
I then got on a BSS Express to Erie. After taking some photos, I took a Spur train to Olney and another Express to Fern Rock. As I got there, an R5 was just leaving. I took the next R3 to Jenkintown where I boarded Neopolan Articulated 7119. After waiting about 15 minutes, we finally started our 20-25 minute trip to Ambler. The bus was not very crowded. Once at Ambler, another train came in towards Lansdale, on which I met SEPTA Neopolan, another poster.
All in all, a very good trip.
I will be posting occasionally for the next 2 months or so.
Until then...
Oren
Travelling around noontime on the Brooklyn-bound F train as it ran on the express track, it saddened me to see the extent to which the old express platforms of the Bergen Street station had been reduced to a skeletal shell of its former self. Oh well, at least it showed me what a station looks like before they apply all the decorations. But still, it’s sad all the same.
Also, it really interested me to see how the express track works – that is, when it’s used.
I rode it today, and the T/O's cab was propped open with the ubiquitous yellow shoe, so I could see somewhat out the front. I could also see the speedometer most of the way -- we topped at 38 between 4th and 7th. (That's pretty pathetic to this IRT rider.)
It was never really that fast when they used it up until 1976.
I remember dueling with GG locals between 4th and 7th Avenues with the GG's sometimes pulling ahead.
You really didn't move that fast between 7th and Church, either. But you didn't have to make all those stops.
My stop was Kings Highway, so if you got an express out of Jay Street, you only made Bergen, 7th Avenue, Church, and 18th Avenue before Kings Highway.
It was faster during rush hours than the N because of the local stops before and after 59th.
>>we topped at 38 between 4th and 7th. (That's pretty pathetic to this IRT rider.)<<
Right. well, when you run Toy trains with real motors, you can expect to go faster. Of course, if Lex. was using B div size trains, there might be much less corwding. And, uh, 38mph is not a whole lot slower than 45. IRT trains rarely break this, and if they do, eclipsing 50 is almost impossible.
And, all that speed is lost due to the closely spaced stations. The distance from Jay to 18th would have another express stop if it were IRT, and 2 more local stops.
Hey, nothing on the IRT compares to the A, B, D or Q express runs between West Fourth and 47/50th or 59th. One decent stretch of express track in the whole thing (West Fourth-34th) counterbalanced by a ton of stops and The Slowest Express Run In The Known Universe -- the A between 14th and 34th. A decent high school runner in the 1600 meters could beat the A's time between those two stops....
Not to mention that the C or E local can usually beat it to 34th St. I have succeeded many, many times.
You must've had an R46!
I thought I was the only one here who found the R-46 sluggish. (Note to the pedants: I'm not saying the R-46 is slow. Only once have I gained access to an R-46 speedometer, and that was on a section of track I have only ridden that one time.) Everyone else just loves the R-46. I hate it. Maybe it's just because I don't like being trapped in a car with no means of communication with anyone outside the car other than the emergency brake.
(Incidentally, with the A, you probably mean an R-44. My feelings toward the R-44 are no different than those toward the R-46.)
Every time in the past few months that I've watched the speedometer on the 3 (which is visible through the cab windows), it's reached 46 between 72nd and 42nd, and sustained it for longer than the F sustained 38 (only a few seconds). Every time. In revenue service.
The notion that 38 vs. 46 doesn't make a difference has become quite popular in B Division territory. Why bother fixing a problem when throwing a grade timer or a wheel detector at it is cheaper?
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that IRT express stations are spaced closer together than IND express stations. The best express runs in Manhattan are on the IRT -- the BMT isn't bad, but the IRT makes as many stops from Chambers to 72nd as the BMT makes from Canal to 57th, and, except along CPW, the IND express tracks are useful for their capacity but not for their speed. (The B/D -- officially expresses -- make five consecutive local stops from 34th to 59th. The A never bypasses more than one stop at a time, making stops that its next-door IRT neighbor skips at 59th, W4, and Canal.)
I agree that the IND did a better job of providing express service to the outer boroughs than the IRT. The Bronx and Queens IRT lines have brisk express runs but their use is limited to one direction at a time. In Brooklyn, the IRT express doesn't accomplish much, but the IRT serves much less of the borough than the BMT and IND.
From experience, I've found that the EDO speedometers (orange numbers) tends to overestimate the correct speed by 3-4 mph on higher speeds. So even though the speedometer says 46, it was most likely doing 43.
Overall it's not the equipment, it's the terrain and signals that predetermine speeds. If you took an R62A and placed it on the same stretch of track on the F line, it'd be doing 38 as well.
From experience, I've found that the EDO speedometers (orange numbers) tends to overestimate the correct speed by 3-4 mph on higher speeds. So even though the speedometer says 46, it was most likely doing 43.
Well, then, the F I was on was only doing 35!
Overall it's not the equipment, it's the terrain and signals that predetermine speeds. If you took an R62A and placed it on the same stretch of track on the F line, it'd be doing 38 as well.
I find that quite likely. The B Division signals just don't allow the speeds found all over the IRT. Although certain car models feel awfully sluggish, I will refrain from claiming that they actually are slow since I've never even seen the speedometer on an R-68. (I've also had a very quick ride on an R-68A, on a B up 4th Avenue.)
Someone (you? I don't remember) posted a while back that the 1 gets from 168 to 59 faster than the A. That speaks volumes.
No, it wasn't me that posted that difference between the 1 and A, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that assumption.
And after looking at the schedules on the MTA website, it reaffirms my doubts. During the AM rush hour southbound from 168 Street to 59 Street, the A express takes 16 minutes and the 1/9 local takes 21 minutes. By comparison, the C takes 19 minutes.
In other words, how could the 1/9 be faster than the A to 59 Street when it can't even beat the C?
If a one time observation, gapped for a D to leave 145th ahead of it perhaps. Add a little congestion ahead of 59th and voila! Blown timetable ... back in my time, wasn't unusual at rush for 59th to back up with B's and D's fighting for 53rd and block up the railroad.
Just speculating of course ... but I always remember the southbound CPW at rush being "anything can happen day" and often it was. The dash north of course was always smooth sailing ...
Sorry for the misattribution. Somebody posted it. I know what the schedules say.
FWIW, last Monday I rode a C from 86 to 168. An A passed us around 103. Another A passed us around 116, but we quickly passed it back. At 125 we closed our doors just as the second A opened its. We arrived at 145 to meet the first A and at 168 to meet the very same A. I know this is just an anecdote, but all those timers really kill what could (and should) be a brisk express run.
I also noticed that the 168 1/9 station was very windy even with no trains coming through. Every other time I've been there it's been very hot and the air has been absolutely still (except when the pigeons flap their wings). I didn't see any fans. Could there be fans in the tunnels, maybe?
[(That's pretty pathetic to this IRT rider.) ]
I always had a perception that IRT is faster, even 6 or 1 with it's closely spaced stations. With a good T/O even that is enjoyable.
Arti
My point exactly.
I ran and caught the last rerouted train Fri right before 3, and then had to run to start my post way up at 205th. Turns out that I did all that for nothing, as I would get to actually operate through the Begern lower level and exp. to Church today as the GO was extended 2 days, and I was on an AM F job, whose 2nd trip was affected.
It's almost the 4th of July, so that means the Smithsonian's Folklife Festival is under way on Washington's Mall. This year's featured "state" is New York City which is represented by, among other things:
* Car #9056 marked for the #7 to Main Street Flushing (the MTA host said it is an R-33).
* Clean Air Hybrid Bus #6357 flashing a greeting to Festivalgoers; and
* A Checker cab.
Most of the NYC area signage is in the subway system's style of white on black.
As a native Staten Islander, I was disappointed that they didn't have a ferry there, but Washington's a long way up the Potomac.
There are several guys constructing a water tank, people playing hopscotch, jump-rope and stickball, and, naturally, lots of people eating all sorts of food. It's a great "ad" for NYC.
The Folklife info and the Redbird on the Mall stuff has been posted on several threads over the past two weeks, but if you go back to the show, don't forget to mention to the Smithsonian people working around 9056 that the train never ran a day in its life on the Flushing line.
A constant (and eventually annoying) reminder of their faux pas can't hurt; after all, the Smithsonian wouldn't try and stick one of Charles Lindburgh's 1928 celebrity tour barnstorming planes in the Air and Space Museum and try and pass it off as The Spirit of St. Louis, now would they? :-)
The people around 9056 are also sub fans. They know about the history of 9056 (that's why they were asked to come down here). Ask the management of the NYCT why they switched cars.
I know -- you related that on an earlier thread. I just thought the Smithsonian people (especially those in the public relations department) are the ones who need to be told, since they've been sending out the erronious info to the Washington Post and other DC media outlets. The PR people are unlikely to be out on the Mall, but it would be nice to hear from somebody acually connected with the Smithsonian involved with the Festival.
I know what you mean. AP and the Wash Post both stated a Redbird from the Queens line will be here. I think the NYCT shipped a different car and somebody is afraid to fess up. I think the PR types don't want to change all the Press Releases. It will come out somewhere that someone gooffed.
Virginia Division - BMT
I went to the Mall at 7:30AM to take the pictures of car #9056. But the best time to take pictures is around 9 AM. I took 31 pictures. I am a little bit crazy.
Chaohwa
That's great. No one is around (they open at 11) and the sun rise is right for a 3/4 view in the sun.
Virginia Division - BMT
Started about 1PM today. Took a R142A 6 from 33rd to 42nd, hopped on the Shuttle to the A. My plan was to take the A from 42nd to Far Rockaway, then take the A back to Howard Beach JFK, get some plane pics :) and then head back on the A home.
Anyway, I got to 42nd, and prayed for a R38. Luckily, one came! I got the railfan all the way to Far Rockaway. Anyway, after JFK, we went over the bridge (which is so slow) and the were coming to Broad Channel. The Test Track was on the right. It looked empty all the way down, but as we neared Broad Channel, I could make out the R143. We passed it, as it was just standing still. I like the LCD side destination sign display a lot. It's a lot better than the one on the R142/A. It was orange, and sharp. Anyway, continued onto Far Rock. Got another R38 on the way back to JFK. Got off at JFK took the shuttle bus to who knows where... some overpass. Some some nice Air Train stuff. Workers were working on something there, and the tracks look all complete. The stations were still covered and stuff. After taking some plane pics (nice ones too of planes landing on 13L and taking off 13R) hopped on the Q10 to the J (R42) at 121st Street, changed to the L (R42) at Eastern Pkwy, and then took the 6 (redbird) to 33rd. All in all, it was a very good day. Unfortunately, I didn't get any R143 pics, because I was standing at the railfan window (and didn't know how the glass through glass would look like) and I needed the little pics that I had for the planes.
Although commuter rail in most cities is a completely separate
operation from the transit systems, can underground portions of
commuter rail lines be classified as "subways"? For example:
In Philadelphia, Penn Center Suburban Station to Market East Station.
Also, can portions of commuter rail lines that run on elevated
structures or viaducts be considered as "els"? For example: In New
York, Atlantic Ave. (LIRR) in Brooklyn, and Park Ave. and 125th St.
(MN) in Harlem. I currently don't know of any commuter rail "els" in
Philly, but I heard there is one in or near Manayunk on the R6 line.
In Chicago, there aren't really any subways for commuter rail, since the parts that are below grade are in open cut, or are at grade but covered by buildings.
But a lot of the Chicago commuter lines are on viaducts most of the way through the city, due to a Chicago ordinance back in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century requiring the elevation of all rail lines in the city limits. However, as the city limits expanded beyond that point, the train lines running at grade were generally not compelled to become elevated. (Sort of a reverse grandfather clause.) So you have routes like the ex-Milwaukee and UP (nee C&NW) lines coming down to grade at least a mile or two before reaching the present city limits.
Even though Chicago's commuter rail lines in the city are almost always elevated, they are never referred to as being on an "el", even though the CTA has lines on identical viaducts at the northern end of the Red and Purple lines as well as the far west end of the Green Line. Sometimes the L tracks and commuter rail tracks even share the same viaduct in Oak Park and Evanston, but the designation "el" (or "L", more commonly here) is strictly for the rapid transit lines.
I think the closest thing Chicago has to a true rapid transit / commuter rail hybrid (now that the North Shore Line is gone) would be the present-day Metra Electric service on the South Side. Trains are elevated on a viaduct, fare control is via turnstiles, platforms are high-level, and the trains run at least as frequently as some true other cities' rapid transit lines. But the legnth of the line, the distance-based fare zones, and the sheer size of the bilevel trains, (not to mention the line's official jurisdiction under Metra) make the Metra Electric more of a commuter rail operation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I would hardly call those turnstyles "fare control." Not only do they still check the tickets on the train, when I was there the turnstyles had been opened and the stations were unmanned.
I've always thought the turnstiles were a bit pointless myself (why keep maintaining them and keep using their "special" tickets while every other Metra line seems to do just fine without them?) even though they're an interesting relic from the IC days. However, I've always had to use them -- even at unmanned stations -- whenever I've ridden the IC (admittedly a rare experience, and something I haven't done in a while).
It still seems like Metra would do well to simply scrap them and use the same tickets that are used on all the other Metra lines.
Or, more ambitiously, convert the local tracks to true rapid transit under the jurisdiction of the CTA -- using standard CTA trains and fare control equipment -- while Metra trains run express on the outer tracks and bypass the local stops in the city. Maybe a short subway around Roosevelt Road could tie into the Red Line. But that would require a lot more money and ambition than the CTA is likely to have in the near future.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I was at whatever the first station from the Chicago terminal is on a Saturady. There was nobody on duty and the service gates next to the turnseyles had been opened and all the turnstyles were sporting little "closed" lights.
Generally not, because "subway" and "el" have come to have very specific meanings, as part of systems performing a particular urban transit function. The designation covers not only the obvious physical structure but other aspects of the service, such as fare prepayment, equipment type, headway vs. timetable operation, and even work tules and crewing.
The examples you cite are elevated or underground structures of commuter railroads.
There have been many examples of hybrid services or shared services. For example, "rapid transit" services of the Long Island Rail Road on Atlantic Avenue. Or interurbans operating on elevated lines in Chicago. But these exceptions did not alter the basic nature of the lines.
In other countries, commuter rail lines are considered as a subway or elevated train system. In Naples Italy, FS runs a commuter train to Pozzouli with several underground train stations, and is refered as Metropolitana underground line. And in Tokyo, JR runs the Yamanote line that loops central Tokyo with elevated tracks and service frequency of a rapid transit line. Finally, in Paris, the RER express line runs on SNCF commuter tracks in the suburbs, and runs cross city thru Paris in subway tunnels.
The A along the Rockaway line or the 5 along the Dyre Ave are also example (being they once werecommuter rail lines.
The only commuter line in NYC that can really be considered to be a subway-elevated is the Atlantic Ave LIRR. It runs on an el structure very similar to rapid-transit els, and then runs in a tunnel like a subway, with an abandoned subway-like station (Woodhaven). A long time ago, the LIRR ran "Electric Rapid Transit" service on that line, from Flatbush Ave to Queens Village.
Then there are lines like the SIRT, which run subway-style equipment, with subway style fare control, but with infrequent service. It is somewhere between rapid transit and commuter rail.
Then there are subway systems like the PATH which do not want to be called subways and call themselves an "Interstate Rail Transit System" instead.
The line looks like it had the capacity for four tracks, but now that has been cut back to two, and with the infrequent service- from what I see on the Raritan Valley line - I get that sinking feeling that they just might try to make the line single track with passing sidings, like the old Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore line. Has ridership fallen that much?
The Raritan gets hourly service on weekends, and is in no danger of reduction in service as 3 cars often fill up even on weekends. There are other lines (main/bergen) which have much less frequency and ridership (off-hours) which still retain double tracks.
it did have 4 track to plainfield where it narrow to 3 tracks. at raritan it went to 2 tracks. now it is 2 tracks all the way to raritan.
Another thing about that line - nearby is the old Lehigh Valley line, which is freight only. A local policeman told me that the trains still use the line regularly. Was there ever passenger service on that line as well, and could it provide a viable alternate route for passengers should there be a mishap fouling up the current passenger line? I am thinking in terms of contingency planning here, since you never know what might happen out there to make your life complicated.
Also, how do you find out when freight trains are scheduled to use a particular route - this is for the shutterbugs out there who seem to be able to get real good photos of trains that are freight only.
Was there ever passenger service on that line as well, and could it provide a viable alternate route for passengers should there be a mishap fouling up the current passenger line?
There was passenger service many years ago. As to its being a viable route today, I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back in the day the CNJ main was a priority route for coal and other bulk freight goods (mostly more coal). The route from Bound Brook to NYC was shared with Reading and B&O interchange freight and thus it required 4 tracks. As far as I know ridership on the line has been pretty good and they are considering electrifacation.
I don't think it is in danger of being reduced to one track. The Raritan Valley line used to be the 4 track mainline of the Jersey Central.
Part of the problem that is holding ridership back is that you can only get as far as Newark Penn Station. You have to change trains and connect either to the PATH to WTC or an electric MU NJ Transit train into New York Penn Station.
It is very inconvenient. Most of the Raritan trains come in on Track 5 and you have to go downstairs to the station concourse or Market Street to get to either Tracks 1 or 2 to make your connections.
Coming home, if there is a problem out of New York Penn, you don't make your connection at Newark, and the service isn't that frequent.
I have a friend at work who would rather drive further and take the Midtown Direct - Gladstone branch for a one seat ride into New York Penn than deal with the Raritan Valley.
I read an article a month or two ago saying they were going to redo
the track connections to make it more convenient, but that is way off.
What they should really consider is electrifying the line all the way out to Raritan, and then electrify the old Reading line from Bound Brook to West Trenton and restore passenger service. They proposed restoring passenger service along the old Reading, but it would be push-pull diesels that would terminate in Newark.
I'm sure that if the Reading was restored, it would be the first to get full electrification. West Trenton station already has power, and electrification of that line could mean through service to Philly from NJTransit (alternative to Amtrak). It could be disguised as trains designed to meet Atlantic City trains, or a joint SEPTA / NJT venture, or even through service to Atlantic city with either a power change or electrification of the line.
Great idea, but of course, it would never happen.
Would you run the train all the way through Center City via the commuter tunnel to get to Shore interlocking, or use the connector track at North Philly Station?
When Amtrak ran NYP-AC trains, they had an AEM7 pulling 3 boxcars and 3 coaches. The train stopped at Shore, an F40 coupled onto the back and pulled the coaches (reversed direction) to Atlantic City. The AEM7 then resumed hauling the head-end cars toward 30th Street.
If they did electrify the line you might see alternative Philly-NYC service sponsored by NJT and SETPA. First, many people in Bucks county PA commute to NYC and they are already considering NJT extentions down the NEC into PA. Second, the Amtrak Clocker through service is wildly popular and the trains are about the most extreme SRO you can get. A West Trenton Line through service could by-pass the NEC congestion and serve a somewhat different corridor. Not to mention it wouldn't be sapping Amtrak's valuable locomotives and coaches.
The only problem w/ through service is that the whole line is all 2 track and through service would probably get held up by local trains. Conversely, the trains would be moving against the "flow" on about 1/2 of their trip.
Through service may not happen that soon, if at all. NJT would have to put up a lot of bucks to extend the wires from SEPTAs end of West Trenton (R3 line) all the way to EWR. Then get the interlocking ready for the additional traffic on an already congested NEC. That, on top of Midtown Direct and the anticipated opening of the Secaucus Transfer station within two years. All of which would turn things into an operational nightmare.
That alternative route looks vry exciting, but there is one problem - Amtrak would raise a red flag to it because of competition from NJT. I had asked someone once about NJT taking over control of the NY PENN -AC line, and they told me that Amtrak vetoed it beause it would directly compete with them in their providing service from NY to Philadelphia. They have the lock on that and they will not give it up. If anyone out there can clarfy that one or update me on this, let me know.
It's not that Amtrak is making any money running the service.
I heard that the only money making route is the Metroliner - where they make $5 a passenger.
AMTRAK would not be in much of a position to complain, since except for NYP, NWK, and a few feet in Philly, the entire NY-AC via West Trenton avoids Amtrak's ROW. Plus, if NJT took over and provided express service, the Metroliners and many NeDirect services could change their policy for Philly service to Recieve / Discharge only, leaving Clockers and Keystones for direct travel.
I walked over the Manhattan Bridge today(kinda quiet-nice view-not many people on the side)-but what i did see was a 4-car R^8 on the South Side running. It was not in service, but i guess it was making a test run on the track. Cant wait till 7/22/01 to see it fully in operation. By the way, are there safety measures in place so people wont be able to hit the trains as they pass over near where people are walking?
I walked over the Manhattan Bridge today(kinda quiet-nice view-not many people on the side)-but what i did see was a 4-car R68 on the South Side running. It was not in service, but i guess it was making a test run on the track. Cant wait till 7/22/01 to see it fully in operation. By the way, are there safety measures in place so people wont be able to hit the trains as they pass over near where people are walking?
That train was probably running in order to qualify Train Operators on that side of the bridge. Unfortunately,I have to get qualified before my regular assignment on Sunday.
(I walked over the Manhattan Bridge today(kinda quiet-nice view-not many people on the side)-but what i did see was a 4-car R68 on the South Side running. It was not in service, but i guess it was making a test run on the track.)
Heck, I was out on the bridge, probably between 3:15 and 4:00 pm, walking from Manhattan to Brooklyn. I was doing a little "inspection" of the work on my own. There was a crew of TA people doing a more formal look over, taking measurements after the test train passed. They told me the test train is going over every 20 minutes.
The Manhattan Bridge seems like a much longer walk than the Brooklyn, perhaps because of the broiling sun and scarcity of other walkers. The paint job is mostly OK, but iffy in spots (managed to get some rust on my finger by rubbing a reddish spot on the railing). Another difference is the 7-8 foot tall chain link fence on both sides of the walkway. You don't have the unobstructed view that you do on the Brooklyn, perhaps to discourage subway vandals on one side and jumpers on the other.
Geepers, those trains go over the bridge SLOWLY.
A kid on one of those razor scooter things went faster than my D today (downhill). I also did something kind of dumb yesterday when walking across the bridge. I attempted to run, at full speed, and race a D train (in 90 degree weather). I started a little past the Brooklyn tower, and ran until I got to the bottom of the Brooklyn side. When I began running the T/O cab had just passed, when I finished the conductor cab had not passed yet. Pathetic.
"Geepers, those trains go over the bridge SLOWLY."
Maybe this is something new ? Perhaps the rebuild does require trains to take it slower to avoid future structural defects.
Bill "Newkirk"
("Geepers, those trains go over the bridge SLOWLY."
Maybe this is something new ? Perhaps the rebuild does require trains to take it slower to avoid future structural defects.
Bill "Newkirk" )
Sounds like we have a new Brooklyn athletic event -- race the train from portal to portal. No, not on a bicycle, that would be unfair. On foot.
Kind of reminds me of my prior proposal to avoid the stress of trains on the bridge -- put terminal stations on each end, and replace the bridge tracks with covered walkways. You'd get exercise in addition to gettig to work.
I went over the WB yesterday in the Manhattan direction. There were GTs and WTs the whole way, with the restriction being 15MPH near the crown of the bridge and getting to 10MPH as we approached the Essex St portal.
I suspect that the TA is taking a very safety-minded view and making sure there isn’t any possibility of the train going out of control down the ramp.
Did any of the M Bridge traversers take a look to see if there were restrictions on the down slopes each way?
John
Standard timers on the down slope, though I think they're one-shot. No WDs in sight.
Whats the best bridge to walk over to see the sights and subway passing by? Also, how does one get there from the subway?
Thanks,
JR, Atlanta
The walkway on the Manhattan Bridge is right next to the subway tracks, so you get a look at them up close and personal. The Brooklyn Bridge's only view of the subway is of the trains on the Manny B.
As far as getting to the trains, it depends on which way you're walking. The Canal Street stations on the N/R/W/6/J/M/Z will be the closest station coming down from midtown (or from north Brooklyn), while at the Brooklyn end the Manny B and Brooklyn Bridge are close enough together that you could use the High Street-Brooklyn Bridge station on the A/C for either bridge.
The Manhattan Bridge south side has the tracks next to the walkway, but the view from the Brooklyn Bridge looking back on lower Manhattan and the harbor is spectacular. You can always do both. Canal Street Station for the Manny and (duh) Brooklyn Bridge Station for the Brooklyn.
I did both Manny and Willy today: High St. to Marcy Av
Some other bridges to consider:
1. Williamsburg Bridge, good views of J/M/Z trains on bridge. Nearest subways are Essex/Delancey in Manhattan and Marcy Ave. in Brooklyn. (Bridge walkway was featured in 1948's "Naked City" and 1981's "Prince of the City.")
2. George Washington Bridge: No trains on bridge, but spectacular views of Manhattan from south walkway and Hudson valley from north walkway. Use A train to 175th Street.
3. Henry Hudson Bridge: Virtually unknown, but walkway on west side of lower level has views of Hudson River and Palisades. Use Riverdale buses to Kappock Street area; entrance to walkway is reached from residential street next to parkway. South end of bridge is anchored to Inwood Hill Park; A train to 207th Street is closest station.
And then, of course, there's the bridge that doesn't have a walkway, namely the Verrazano. That would be one spectacular walk, at least during warm weather.
The Queensboro bridge is pretty good (Lexington on the N/R, use the 3rd ave exit). Walkway is kindof hidden over by the Q60 terminus. On the other end it's Queensboro Plaza (Queensbridge is a bit further). At the Queens end, the N trains pass right next to you when coming out of the portal.
If you're feeling a bit adventurous, try and navigate the Triboro's walkways and get a stunning view of the Hell Gate Bridge for Amtrak, freight, and R-142 deliveries. Be sure to use the north walkway, if it is open. There is also some freight yard visible in the vicinity of Randalls Island. Go to Astoria Blvd on the N, easy to find the walkway from there, and find your way to the 4/5/6 or MNRR on the Manhattan end (very short walk). I don't know about the Bronx leg. The pedestrian interchange at Randalls island in quite confusing and somewhat annoying, the stupid toll plaza forces you down a long ramp to the ground, where you have to find your way around with conflicting signage. At one point you have to walk alongside a small road with no sidewalk (unless there is a better way to get around). The walkway to the Bronx is visible first, and you'll be so turned around you'll swear it was Manhattan. Don't let the confusion at Randall's turn you off to this bridge, you feel the sweet taste of victory once you finish (especially since waiting for you in Manhattan is a store that sells those 24 ounce 50 cent drinks).
The Manhattan Bridge seems like a much longer walk than the Brooklyn, perhaps because of the broiling sun and scarcity of other walkers.
The Brooklyn Bridge is longer anchorage-to-anchorage and tower-to-tower. The Manhattan Bridge is longer, if you include the approaches.
I did a half-walk over the Manhattan on the first day it opened (last Monday) and noticed that the bike/walkway is somewhat narrow, but do understand that a walkway on the northside will be ready in a couple of years and it will be used exclusively for bikers, leaving the southside (current) path for pedestrian-use only.
I saw a couple of track-workers out on the southside roadbed while I was walking (between 1 and 2 pm). I asked them what was going on and they told me that a test-train was due in a few minutes. Sure enough, an out-of-service R-68 four-car consist made it's way from Brooklyn to Manhattan, shooting sparks from the third-rail shoes as it when along (from the light-rust on the newly laiden tracks).
I'll be making another lunch-hour walk next week and I'll post if I find anything interesting.
Doug
P.S. The previous posting was made from the Montauk Point's Public Library, as I am on my summer vacation there.
Unfortunately, I'll be back in "civilization" by Tuesday.
BMTman
Hit both the Manhattan and Williamsburg today. I had walked over the Manhattan half of both 8 years ago in a Museum tour, but today walked over both for the first time, making the right from Bowery to Delancey and continuing. Nice that it was cool enough to be comfortable, and sunny enough to not be too chilly.
I rode the B up the Sea Beach express yesterday, We get to 8th ave where an N train just departed for 59th street. We are held for almost 8 minutes, and they let ANOTHER N that we passed earlier ahead of us. This sure defeats the purpose of having the Manhattan bound B run express on the Sea Beach.
I would've posted this last night but I couldn't get through to Subtalk.
Q7: I have been off line for a week on vacation at the beach, but apparently home in time to read your post. Well, in my opinion, the B has no damn business on the Sea Beach tracks. That route should be for the Sea Beach, not the West End. I can't figure why they can;t run the N on the Manhattan bound tracks instead of the B. What a crock.
"That route should be for the Sea Beach, not the West End. I
can't figure why they can;t run the N on the Manhattan bound tracks instead of the B. What a crock."
The B had no choice. For the last several months there have been GOs all over the place, rerouting the B to the N and vice versa. Signal work and other structural matters.
Glad you cleared that up CCNY, but I hadn't heard of the Sea Beach running on the West End tracks. When did that happen?
Go to the TA's web page and read up on the service advisories each week. Hardly a week goes by without either the B running on the Sea Beach express or the N running on the West End express middays, overnight, or on the weekend (or all three).
I don't understand why you would be held for 8 minutes.
When I was a kid, and they ran the N express between Kings Highway and 59th Street because of trackwork, I don't think the express tracks had signals. They would hold an N at Kings Highway until the N in front switched back to the local tracks before going into the 4th Avenue tunnel outside of 59th.
At least that's the way I remember it...............
I wonder what it was like in the olden days when the Coney Island Express was running. Did they get held at 8th Ave. so that a regular Sea Beach train could proceed?
Yeah, they let an N sneak in front of the B I was riding Friday afternoon. Most annoying (especially since, if we had moved a little bit faster on the express run, we would have been well in front of the N by that point), but do remember that the point of running the B express on the N is not to give those of us in the know a quick ride but to allow for work on the West End track. I must say, though, given the inconvenience that everyone trying to get from Stillwell to West end points must go through, it would be nice if rerouted trains were given priority, at least as far as trains going back along the regular route.
Does anyone know why the 1/9 track at South Ferry has a sprinkler system that sprays, what I think is water, onto the tracks?
To keep the squeal from deafening everyone. Try standing down there when it's off, and you can tell the men from the boys by who covers their ears.
The inner loop uses greasers, which are less thorough but don't break as frequently. They were installed earlier this year, before that you could actually feel your eardrum inverting everytime a 5 train turned.
Thanks, I'll keep an ear out for the difference.
They also use the sprinklers and grease to prevent excessive wear of the track anytime a train "announces" its arrival and departure over the curve. That's my take.
Curved track requires replacement as often as every 3 months, compaed to 18 months for straight track.
From 20 YEAR CAPITAL NEEDS ASSESSMENT 1992-2001, published by NYCTA in February 1990, page 5-13, here are NYCT(A)'s normal replacement cycles for various types of track, at least at that time:
Type I (ballast)
Tangent: 30 years
Unguarded: 25 years
Guarded: 20 years
Type II (concrete)
Tangent: 60 years
Unguarded: 50 years
Guarded: 40 years
Type III (elevated)
Tangent: 20 years
Unguarded: 20 years
Guarded: 15 years
Type VI (a variation of Type II)
Tangent: 30 years
Unguarded: 30 years
Guarded: 25 years
The numbers above represent the NORM for these types of track. Some pieces could last much longer, others might have to be replaced long before these figures are reached. At least for Type II track, the rails themselves are generally replaced about halfway through the cycle.
David
Thanks Dave. But those are general figures not in context with operating conditions.
My figures (esp. 3 months for curved track) were quoted by the MTA in a newspaper article about night-time track replacement crews.
My figures (esp. 3 months for curved track) were quoted by the MTA in a newspaper article about night-time track replacement crews.
And they're blatantly wrong. Train Dude has posted the actuals here... don't remember the numbers exactly, but it was a radically longer time than that - on the order of 30+ years, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you are correct, then that is very good news indeed.
I do not advocate throwing away good track.
Thanks for the info.
The replaced trackage is not thrown away it is used in the yards and barns.
Anything technical quoted in a newspaper article has a good chance
of being WRONG.
Think about it, if the average replacement cycle were anywhere
near 3 months, the entire system would constantly be under
construction.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that tight curves get replaced every few months. They send gangs out at night, and they have a section of track out, in, and tied down in the 20 minutes between trains.
I'm not sure about straight track, but my guess is that it could last a long time.
I don't believe that a rail could be replaced with service also running on it. A six hour G.O. on the midnight tour usually does the trick.
No, actually, you're wrong. I've seen televised video of track crews replacing a section of rail, then scampering for cover as a train passes over it.
Does that mean that a replacement section of curved rail comes in pre-bent or something?
Unless the guard rail is missing, the rail even in 125' radius
curves should remain in acceptable condition for several years.
not true. the tracks get replaced every several years or so. every few months and the tracks would always be in construction making the system inconveinient.
every few months and the tracks would always be in construction making the system inconveinient.
You don't really need the trackwork to make the system inconvenient. The constant unpublicized GOs and crowding do a very nice job on their own, thank you.
Dan
A similar sprinkler system can be seen at Union Sq. 4/5/6
....and Union Sq. has quite a cheesgrater of a curve goin'.
It could be for the curved rails... tho the last time
a similar thread was spooled, someone mentioned the
sprinklers as a mode to "cool off" the train's undercarriage.
They also exist on the curve north of E Tremont Ave. on the 2/5.
At about 12:30 today, heading northbound (out of service). There was a bit of a crowd in the first car, and there was someone in the conductor's position. The middle rollsign was set to F. Was this the first full-length train to use the bridge? Anyone have an idea of where it was going from / to, and why it used the bridge? I'm guessing a move from Coney Island to Jamaica, and a TSS happened to be available and felt like taking a shortcut.
R-46's always end up in weird places. I saw one Not In Service at Chambers, heading Northbound. Likely for Jamaica. But why via the A/E lines?
In all likelyhood, your synposis of the situation (TSS shortcut) was correct. Or, they were doing a full train test. Or, maybe they were saving some time and doing familiarization with a train that was going to pass through that area anyways.
It may have been a class of new train operators, there are a lot of us, doing a group post or a group of veteran t/o's learning the new routes coming up in July.
Will you start seeing R-46s crossing the Manhattan Bridge on a regular basis?
BMTJeff
>>Will you start seeing R-46s crossing the Manhattan Bridge on a regular basis?<<
No.
Maybe if they're going to be sending the R over it on weekends (possibly one of the reasons the W is being cut back to Pacific, and supposedly can't be replaced by an extended M)
>>Maybe if they're going to be sending the R over it on weekends<<
I doubt they'll do that. Maybe the N, but not the R.
Plus, the R serves downtown manhattan on weekends. Maybe nights, but not weekends.
As a GO they will...
>>As a GO they will...<<
Forgot about that. Crap. Now i'm gonna get it.....
I saw an R this morning heading northbound on Sixth Avenue. It was an R32.
:-)
Because that side of the bridge has been closed for 12+ years, a hell of a lot of t/o's have either never crossed it in their careers and those who did need to be requalified. The leads to it from Prince St. are bit trickier than crossing from the Grand St. side, as well as dual routings on the Brooklyn side into DeKalb Ave. All B divison t/o's have to qualify/re-qualify by the time the Bway side reopens. School cars run all times, every 30 minutes, except during the rush hours. They arrive at Pacific St. on F3 track, load/unload "students", change direction and proceed toward the MannyB. They change direction again somewhere along the Bway Express tracks. Train Operators do this qualification either before or after their regularly scheduled tour of duty. I will re-qualify Monday evening.
Hey Bill, Whyisn't there any train service thru Maspeth?
(Hey Bill, Whyisn't there any train service thru Maspeth?)
Because 30 years ago, the people of Maspeth, Middle Village, Glendale etc. fought to keep it out, fearing that it would lead Black people to live in their neighborhood. Geraldine Ferraro got her start fighting the MTA's proposed train, which would have use the Montauk Branch and the 63rd Street tunnel.
The NIMBY attitude is that a 2 fare zone (actually, of course, Metro Card is now a free train to bus transfer anyway) would keep the "riff-raff" out because the extra travel would make it impractical for "them" to move into the neighborhood.......The prevailing attitude of the Glendale NIMBYS is that they want absolutely nothing running on those tracks, in fact they would be happy if those tracks were abandoned all together. They feel that electrified trains running thru "their" neighborhood would not do anything positive for them.......I believe somewhere in the FAQ for this site, it says that one of the ideas which never came to fruition because of lack of funding was a subway for Maspeth branching off the Queens IND at 74th/Roosevelt snaking its way to Grand Ave., then across Fresh Pond Road and, IIRC, hooking up with the Montauk branch thru Glendale, or something to that effect.
I heard the same thing siad about Highbridge [Bronx] in the late 50's..the 2-fare zone thing. Obviously they were pretty mistaken. Likewise look at the neighborhoods around the Queens-Nassau County line that have no one-fare basic fare ride.
I'm not judging...just going by what "THEY" say.
Bill wrote:
The NIMBY attitude is that a 2 fare zone (actually, of course, Metro Card is now a free train to bus transfer anyway) would keep the "riff-raff" out because the extra travel would make it impractical for "them" to move into the neighborhood.......The prevailing attitude of the Glendale NIMBYS is that they want absolutely nothing running on those tracks, in fact they would be happy if those tracks were abandoned all together.
Living in that area and having to slog through Maspeth on that execrable Q58 (or worse, the Q39), I sure wish the Winfield Spur had come to pass. It takes about an hour to get to anywhere in Midtown from my apartment on Fresh Pond. Abandoning the Montauk Branch stations was utterly inexcusable.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Know how you feel. It isn't much better on this end (Cypress/Seneca area), though the presence of the L helps a bit. We wanted to move around Fresh Pond, but then we would be far away from the L and depend completely on the M shuttle weekends and nights. One reason I wish they would extend it somewhere (west End to replace B/W; via Chrystie, etc). The Montaulk branch bypass would have been great for the area too, of course
Just this morning, I got stuck in your area on my way to my early AM post at 179th. M got into Fresh Pond a couple of minutes late, and the Q54 left. Probably too late to back out to the L. So I saw a Q67, and figured I'd get off at Grand where both the Q58 and 59 run. But the 59 wasn't running at that time, and the 58 was once an hour. Now, really in a dead end, and no cab money. So I wound up walking from 69th St/LIE all the way to Queens Blvd-- at around 3:30 in the morning. The very center of the city, and this is the fastest way to get around.
Makes you wonder why they built neighborhoods there and didn't insted just extend the cemeteries and factories that surround and thus so isolate the area.
Hey what ever happened to the "City that Never Sleeps"?
Hope you have as much fun as I did. My A to B transfer class qualified this past Thursday morning -- along with eight other TOs. It was a complete waste of time, especially since the TSS assigned to the qualification wanted the TOs working overtime in the front and told us students to "move to the back" (yet another nitwit who thought we came from the street, but didn't bother to ask).
I'm wondering if they will extend our school car for this qualification. We finish the Friday before the change, and that whole week will have been our practicals, and preparation for them, so when will we be qualified? While we're at it, introduce us to the R-143 as well (which I hear is a 3 day class)
They'll sneak you in, don't worry.
Totally off-topic, but seeing people who actually drive trains adn work for the MTA here, I've got to ask What does it take for someone to be hired to be a train operator? I assume the MTA wouldn't let me do it for a summer job, but considering it's probably the best job I can think of (me and my subway fixaation and all), I'm wondering how difficult is it to be hired as a train operator by the MTA?
(Something for myself to keep in mind if this whole Geography/Urban Planning thing I'm going for in school doesn't get me a career)
-Alan Scott
Chicago Tribune: Daley proposes $6 billion O'Hare plan
Of particular interest to us:
"The mayor discussed the prospect of extending the CTA Blue Line to Schaumburg; building a new rail line connecting O'Hare and Midway Airports; and improving the CTA's Blue and Orange Lines to accommodate express trains to both airports."
"The costs of the transit improvements were not included in the $6 billion figure disclosed today."
I have mixed feelings about extending the Blue Line to the plastic wastelands of Schaumburg, but I'm all in favor of true express service on the Blue and Orange Lines, as well as a crosstown line linking the two airports.
QUESTION FOR THE AUDIENCE: Suppose you're one of Mayor Daley's hacks and have been charged with the task of adding dedicated express tracks to the Blue and Orange Lines. How would you accomplish this? Both lines go through some pretty tight squeezes and adding two additional tracks to the existing ROW would be a difficult task. I have my own ideas, but I'll hold off until later.
As expected, the suburban NIMBY idiots are gearing up for the fight of their lives. The article even mentions that some of them have built their entire lives around hating Chicago in general and O'Hare in particular. A very typical attitude in most of Chicago's suburbs, unfortunately.
Here's hoping "The City That Works" can crush the NIMBY opposition and get this project underway.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The CTA can try a tactic that both the IRT and BRT used in the bygone era. Build the express tracks higher up in - between the local tracks.
Although I was obviously born well after both companies (and their els) were gone, I still see evidence of this line of thinking on the Bway "J" el in Bklyn, just before the Alabama Av. stop.
I like your attitude, Dave.
Now, since you live there, you can help make it happen. Get on your computer, write letters to your elected officials and to CTA; educate local civic associations about the benefits of these new lines. You can make a difference! Go for it.
With the Fed's involved they might not have too much choice. The Federal govt is going to have a big say in this matter. The Midwestern congressmen are ready to see this airport grow. If they back Daley then the project should work. Look at the Big Dig(in Boston) its looks like a big mess but when it opens people will love it. The big Chicago argument is why the people moved so close to the airport.
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Last summer i lived at the Pavillion Apts in Chicago right on the takeoff and landing approaches to Ohare. It was very loud all day but a very nice apt building so i lived just fine. I also loved watching the planes fly by my 15th floor window. Most people when they move into Des Planes or Norwood or that part of Chicago must realize that they are moving next to the airport. The city really has to use that argument. It was cheaper and suburban but it was always around the airport.
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We have that problem with Teterboro Airport in NJ. The land must have been cheap. One family runs all of Teterboro but all of the people around the airport hate it and try to stop everything the airport is doing.
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I imagine the jets at Teterboro may be quite a bit noisier than at LGA or JFK etc. At Teterboro you see a lot of corporate jets, many with low-bypass turbofans or even turbojets. Larger airliners of recent years have high-bypass turbofans, which quiets them significantly.
Richard M. Daley, worsed mayor in Chicago history.
The idea of extending the Blue Line to Schaumburg is just rhetoric designed to minimize suburban opposition to O'Hare expansion. I doubt if there is any realistic plan for this.
While I am in favor of any rapid transit expansion in Chicago, I doubt that there is any real need to directly connect the two airports. How many people fly into O'Hare and need a connecting flight from Midway? A better alternative would be an in-city crosstown line, enabling a crosstown trip without going through the Loop.
The idea of extending the Blue Line to Schaumburg is just rhetoric designed to minimize suburban opposition to O'Hare expansion. I doubt if there is any realistic plan for this.
You're probably right about that. It seems like one of several bones Daley is throwing to the suburbanites in order to make the airport expansion somewhat easier to swallow. Also, I think it would be suicide to expand the Blue Line to Schaumburg without also greatly increasing capacity on the Blue Line portions within the city. Otherwise, the trains would be packed full of passengers before they even got inside the city limits, and people at places like Logan Square would have no hope of ever being able to get on board. As it is right now, it's almost impossible to board a train if you're getting on at someplace like Division or Chicago Avenue. And these are the people who decide Daley's re-election, not people in Schaumburg. I think improved Metra service and/or express Pace busses to Schaumburg would be much more pragmatic.
Another transit "bone" to the suburbanites that I forgot to mention in my original posting was a proposal to add a branch to the South Shore Line that would directly serve Gary Airport. Part of the plan is that most ovrnight cargo flights -- the biggest headache for the suburbanites -- would be shifted from O'Hare to Gary. Time will tell if the suburbanites are smart enough to back this sensible idea, or if they'd rather go down in flames just to spite the city of Chicago.
While I am in favor of any rapid transit expansion in Chicago, I doubt that there is any real need to directly connect the two airports. How many people fly into O'Hare and need a connecting flight from Midway? A better alternative would be an in-city crosstown line, enabling a crosstown trip without going through the Loop.
While very few people fly into O'Hare with a connecting flight at Midway right now, that may be a much better possiblity of there was a direct link between the two airports. Also, It would provide easier access to both airports assuming there's intermediate stations where this crosstown line would intersect the other L lines west of the city.
I'm a bit curious if this proposed line is the same crosstown line that has been on the CTA's super-long-term plans for the past several years: Starting at Jefferson Park and heading south roughly alongside Cicero Avenue to Ford City, and then heading east and connecting with the Red Line on the South Side around 75th or so. Could be a very successful line if it is carried out thoughtfully enough.
As an added bonus, it would also make for yet another entirely new transit line in Chicago that has gone from rough proposal to opening day within the time that New York has been "studying" the Second Avenue Subway. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
By the way, has the CTA begun repairing and restoring the damaged part of the Loop service (building collapse caused it, right?)?
I was in Chicago last Thursday with my sister for a one-day excursion to the Art Institute, and we rode the "L" past the site (Randolph and Wells on the Loop "L") of the recent "situation". The "L" structure was not damaged. However, a canopy was erected over the tracks, and another in the street below around the building on the northeast corner. As I recall, chunks of terra cotta were falling from the building, and the owners/management were reluctant to address the dangers to pedestrians, vehicles, and elevated trains.
For blue line express service I would build a subway under Milwaukee from Logan Square to Jefferson Park, this goes under dense neighborhoods and would serve the locals, the express could use the old alignment. From Jeff Pk to O'Hare, I would build out into the Kennedy to make room for two more tracks. Skipping the last eight, or seven of eight stops would cut maybe 15 minutes, or 35-40% of travel time.
If I had money left over, I'd extend the Ravenswood to Jeff Pk.
To improve access to Midway, I'd cut the right angle and build a subway under Archer from Western to 47th. Even with two stops, this would cut travel time by 20-25%.
If the Midwest ever gets HSR, I'd cover up one of O'Hare's parking lots with a rail station.
Then Richie would fire me for not taking money into account.
What are your ideas?
Right now I'm against building out to Schaumburg, all I see is stations surrounded by asphalt seas of parking; sprawl generators.
"For blue line express service I would build a subway under Milwaukee from Logan Square to Jefferson Park, this goes under dense neighborhoods and would serve the locals, the express could use the old alignment."
But the stations are in place on the old alignment, and some are being, or have been recently, remodeled. It would make more sense to run expresses in your new subway, avoiding having to build all those local stations, and the locals on the existing line. And I would extend the subway from Jeff Park all the way to the subway portal east of Damen/North, under the route of the existing L structure so as to speed the trains even more without having to dig up Milwaukee in this busy stretch and to eliminate for the express trains the whipsaw turn just west of Damen/North station.
"From Jeff Pk to O'Hare, I would build out into the Kennedy to make room for two more tracks. Skipping the last eight, or seven of eight stops would cut maybe 15 minutes, or 35-40% of travel time."
Agreed.
"If I had money left over, I'd extend the Ravenswood to Jeff Pk."
Definitely. By a subway under Lawrence Avenue, with stations at Pulaski and Cicero.
"To improve access to Midway, I'd cut the right angle and build a subway under Archer from Western to 47th. Even with two stops, this would cut travel time by 20-25%."
A good idea, but fairly low priority. Only worth it if your'e adding express tracks to the Orange Line anyway.
"If the Midwest ever gets HSR, I'd cover up one of O'Hare's parking lots with a rail station."
There's a parking lot right next to the Wisconsin Central tracks that are used for Metra's North Central Service. A modest station is already there for the Metra service, but frequent high-speed service would require a larger station and a direct connection to the airport people-mover. Someone has the same idea as you, anyhow: http://www.midwesthsr.org/linking/ohare/odsystem.html
"Right now I'm against building out to Schaumburg, all I see is stations surrounded by asphalt seas of parking; sprawl generators."
I don't think that's entirely fair.
1) Park-and-ride shouldn't be seen as people giving up on transit for part of their trip, but as people choosing to use transit as part of their trip when they COULD drive the whole thing.
2) The sprawl is already there, Blue Line extension or not. The extension could only HELP curb sprawl by encouraging **some** people out of their cars. If it's successful enough, it may even encourage the concentration of office buildings and stores withing walking distance of the train station. The Rosemont and Cumberland stops on the Blue Line are already examples of such concentration.
3) There are jobs at Woodfield and the surrounding office parks that could be taken by carless city residents if they could get all the way to work on RAPID transit -- not transfering from a fast train to a slow bus, or worse, multiple slow buses.
"But the stations are in place on the old alignment, and some are being, or have been recently, remodeled. It would make more sense to run expresses in your new subway, avoiding having to build all those local stations, and the locals on the existing line."
I want to build those stations, if you put stations right under Milwaukee you get huge ridership increases, stations in the middle of expressways are a pain to get to, & unpleasant. The sight of an express train zipping by jammed cars on the Kennedy would be great propaganda too.
"A good idea, but fairly low priority. Only worth it if your'e adding express tracks to the Orange Line anyway."
Going through industrial zones, the Orange line just misses two very dense areas on the near southwest side, one is centered along Archer where I mentioned the subway could go. Again, there would be high ridership increases if you put the train right under where people already live; the Archer bus has very high ridership day and night. David asked for ideas about getting to Midway
"There's a parking lot right next to the Wisconsin Central tracks that are used for Metra's North Central Service. A modest station is already there for the Metra service,"
That Metra station is the most forlorn looking thing I've ever seen. I'd love to put a real station on top of that lot.
"2) The sprawl is already there, Blue Line extension or not. The extension could only HELP curb sprawl by encouraging **some** people out of their cars.
In combination with decent express service to the Loop, it would encourage people to move even farther out. Unless S'burg changes it's zoning.
"If it's successful enough, it may even encourage the concentration of office buildings and stores withing walking distance of the train station. The Rosemont and Cumberland stops on the Blue Line are already examples of such concentration. "
Maybe, I'm just having visions of the DC Metro
"3) There are jobs at Woodfield and the surrounding office parks that could be taken by carless city residents if they could get all the way to work on RAPID transit -- not transfering from a fast train to a slow bus, or worse, multiple slow buses. "
That is a plus, but I think getting carless city residents around the city would be a better use of the money.
Well as I'm sure you've all noticed, weird things are afoot here at nycsubway.org
Most noticably the two Talks are now running on their own vhosts, subtalk.nycsubway.org, and bustalk.nycsubway.org, respectively. I think you should notice a performance improvement.
I'll post more tomorrow about what's going on.
-Dave
One other thing...
If you see something that looks broken... consider that it's being worked on and it'll get fixed in due time. Don't need to email me if things look weird.
-Dave
WHAT DID YOU DO! THIS PLACE IS FASTER THAN A GREASED ALP-44M!
How did a "software" fix make things so fast?
"Woah-ho that's good squishy."
Yeah it seems to be pretty fast now.
Maybe David Replaced the F40 PH with a F59 phi.
Whatever Baby, Dave is da man!!!
He sure as heck didn't replace it with a GE P42-8!
You do a helluva job on this site...thanks...
Dave, this runs great. Especially when you go back to the index. I used to wait 5-10 seconds, now it's almost instant!!!
Thanks much.
Chuck Greene
It's like going from an R68 to a R40 slant with turbochargers. Nice upgrade.
"It's like going from an R68 to a R40 slant with turbochargers. Nice upgrade."
Yeeahh! But at least it's not noisy... HEheehehee.
N Bwy
No, it's like adding an extra field shunt step.
Or perhaps the R-10s have been resurrected.:-)
WOWSERS! Now if we could only get the subways to run like this!
Sorry to see you going through an obvious lot of work, but the results so far are nothing short of remarkable.
It's great! I don't have to open three different windows to keep pace with reading the post. As a result, I save on system resources. Thanks!
N Bwy
Kind of like the good old days, eh?
Once again, Dave is #1 in our book. The performance is great!!
"vhosts" That's some sort of virtual machine, right?
Well since I have never really a problem with Subtalk speed I guess we're going to be talking VROOM VROOM here! Hope it dosen't mess up my hair :)
Keep up the goode worke!!!!!!!
BTW...What ever happened to Brighton? It is sitting in some closet somewhere? Will the dual "Talks" ever get their own servers again? Maybe you could hold a naming contest for the new vhosts.
R33WFsingle.nycsubway.org, R142.nycsubway.org, stillwell.nycsubway.org, seabeach.nycsubway.org, hudsontubes.nycsubway.org, metrocard.nycsubway.org
THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!
Mike, you want "vroom vroom", take the LIRR to Bellmore on a friday night. *big* old muslcecar and bike show, free, every friday. With the LIRR going by above :)
And a few for sale. Radical black '68 Chevelle there, basically a street legal strip car. But too much for me :( 22 grand, ouch.
I guess now that the baby boomers and flower kids have hit their 50's, they all want the cars they couldn't afford/get back when they were young :(
And a few VWs, those are cool too.
And the REGULAR commuter cars there too. It's really a sight to see this.
What makes me feel old is when I see kids younger than me driving something like a '72 Nova with a blower through the hood.
Man. I never had a car like that in high school :(
(Thinks new cars are better technologically, but old ones have SOUL. Soul wins)
And you've still got the LIRR rush hour on the Babylon line going on above it...
> BTW...What ever happened to Brighton? It is sitting in some closet
> somewhere? Will the dual "Talks" ever get their own servers again?
> Maybe you could hold a naming contest for the new vhosts.
Well actually the two new servers are called "dreamland" and "lunapark" but you shouldn't see them in URL's...
-Dave
What happened to Astroland? Will there ever be a Steeplechase?
Heh. Yes, astroland is my "test" vhost at home and steeplechase was my home router for a while ;)
WOW! That is quick. The performance is alot faster.
Thanks Dave.
Paul
I have little idea what any of that means, but the SubTalk script is now faster than I've ever seen it before. Keep up the excellent work!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Excelent! The speed is great now I can open messages faster.
Yeah, it only took me a few minutes to read this whole thread, rather than a couple of hours
OUR HERO!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok folks I know you're all dying to know what I've been up to. And I know you're sick and tired of the site being inaccessible, down, slow, etc. So here's what I've been up to.
First, why was the site so unreliable recently? A combination of factors, starting roughly 3 months ago:
- the ISP I was hosted at renumbered their IP network, leaving me without any valid DNS servers for a few days
- the past 2 weeks or so the ISP had been having problems with their T-1 (for some reason, every day starting around 10:00 am). (This has been resolved now.)
- The server the site was hosted on is suffering from uncorrectable ECC RAM errors from time to time resulting in the occasional reboot (not really noticable to a transaction based service like the web, though)
- Thursday night the server lost one of its two mirrored hard drives and needed to be powercycled to reset the SCSI bus. It is still operating with only 1 of its 2 mirrors. It was down for around 15 hours until someone could get to the facility and reset it for me.
- Due to the bad RAM (or motherboard, not sure) and the newly failed disk, this machine is short lived.
Behind the scenes I'd been working on a server upgrade for the site. A SubTalk poster, who I won't name but if he wants to chime in pls feel free, donated to the cause a Sparc 20 and some parts (essentially an identical machine to what we have now, but with a little more RAM and a slightly faster CPU). I also recently purchased a Dell Poweredge 350 rackmount server unit for the purposes of hosting the site.
Old Sun Sparc 20New Sun Sparc 20New Dell
Disk9 gig (2x9 mirrored)9 gig (2x9 mirrored)10 gig (2x10 mirrored)
Memory272 meg480 meg384 meg
CPU2x60 Mhz Sparc1 60 Mhz, 1 75 Mhz SparcCeleron 600
I was also looking around for a new host closer to home that might prove to either be more reliable or allow me easier access to the boxes in case of hardware failure. K2NESoft served us well for many years but was nearly two hours from my home. The aforementioned individual who donated the new Sun hooked me up TTSG Internet Services who will be hosting us (my hardware, their network and facilities) from now on. They have much better bandwidth and multiple peering arrangements so network connectivity will be better.
So, mostly due to the newly failed disk in the main server, last night (Friday) myself and the aforementioned individual scrambled to deploy the two servers, the new Sun and the Dell, at TTSG.
Subtalk and Bustalk are being run on the Dell in their own "virtual hosts", which means if I ever need to move them again we won't have to change the URL's yet again. It also moved the Subtalk and Bustalk posts out of the main tree of www.nycsubway.org documents which means I can keep that tree in sync with my home machine much more easily. Contrary to what I might have led some people to believe last night, this wasn't a software fix; I threw hardware at the problem this time.
The rest of the site is being hosted by BOTH machines together in a round-robin fashion. This will mean that each machine will serve only half the load the former single server needed to deal with.
There's going to be some more bugs to work out as I migrate the rest of the services off the old machine (mail, personal web, etc). So bear with me.
I can't even begin to describe the amount of time, effort, and $$$ required to keep this site up and running. I want to thank the "aforementioned individual", TTSG Internet Services, and K2nesoft for having supported it so far.
-Dave
Keep up the excellent work... There's already a huge improvement in the site's performance. Also, special thanks to the "aforementioned individual" for helping make it happen!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks Mr. Pirmann!!! Thanks to that individual as well. I have an old Gateway 2000 200mhz Pentium MMX ready to be stripped if needed. The motherboard is dead and I migrated the memory to my new system. The processor has been overclocked for quite some time but still works. The small green heatsink is still nice. Thanks again!
Advice: keep that box, install a Unix on it, and build a home network or learn some web technologies yourself! :-) I don't have any more room to install such a beast but you could put it to good use...
A while back I asked you by email if Subtalk was a "non-profit" or if there was a established mechanism for accepting contributions - you indicated there was not, and you were not going to set one up.
Nice work, by the way. The site's performance is excellent.
I found a way to contribute. I took the Webmaster to lunch :-)
A small token of my appreciation for everything he's done.
Setting up a new server is always a trip through the magical land of unexpected coumpter surprises, so however long it takes to get it right is no problem with me, especially when you're the one shelling out the time and money. The board speed's already noticably faster, and I'm sure the photo download speed will also improve with the new system.
Based on this morning's performance I had a feeling that there had been a hardware change... nice job, Dave... and thanks as well to the individual who helped out with the goodies.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not only does the site respond promptly, Dave's even restored the functionality of the Compressed format for the Message Index.
It's great.
Does this mean that the search function will be restored, too, when competing demands on Dave's time allow?
"restored" = "rewritten"
It's on the list but don't HYB.
You don't have to refer to me in the 3rd person you know.
I fixed the compressed listing thing last week when I was testing the new webserver's performance.
Thanks for the info.
Sorry about the 3rd person.
I didn't realize that you were creating fresh code. (I just assumed that you had re-inserted some lines that you had deleted way back when you were trying to find a software fix for response time problems.) I really do appreciate all of the time and effort you put into this site.
I 'm wondering about a couple of things concerning the new set up. Based on your brief experience with the new hardware, do you think it will allow more messages to be retained on line than in the past w/o loss of responsiveness? Also, I notice this morning that the compressed index indicates which threads are new but doesn't provide a count of new responses to old threads. Is that a function of the new code or, possibly, a quirk of my machine?
A SubTalk poster, who I won't name but if he wants to chime in pls feel free
I guess Dave thinks I might be shy or something 8-) It was me.
Terry,
Don't feel too shy. By assisting Dave, you help make nycsubway.org one the premier rail/transit sites on the net.
Thank You, Terry!!!!!!!
Thanks Terry... we all appreciate it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou
The difference is astounding.
Thanks to both of you for keeping nycsubway.org working and for all your efforts to improve its MTBF :) Just fabulous!
--Mark
Dave & Terry,
My personal thanks and appreciation for all you've done to educate and entertain this individual, both on SubTalk & BusTalk.
Mr t__:^)
Completely agree!! There's other sites, but none compare!
Dave & Terry -
Thank you for keeping this site in tip top shape. Without this site, I doubt my interest in transit would have been re-energized the way it has been over the past few years.
Thank you very much. It really is much faster. Now I can view the entire index without causing timeouts.
I know I have taken this site for granted sometimes. I want you to know that I really appreciate what you are doing here.
Now maybe you can bring the archives back up.
- Lyle Goldman
Because I know there are some techies out there ... thought you might be interested in seeing the "guts" of www.nycsubway.org....
Oooooooooooooo.....
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh you know you're impressed. ;-)
Somehow, I thought it would be...you know...
BIGGER.
-Hank :)
He didn't photograph the squirrels generating the electricity and making the machine work faster :)
They're in the next room.
--Mark
Ah, good old SQL power...
-Hank :)
Pretty good. Now we just need to fill the rest of the rack with servers!
John
T'aint my rack space, sorry to say...
In other words, nycsubway.org does not live in the spare bedroom of your apartment.
I wish I had a spare bedroom!
Actually the site has never operated from my house except for a short period where subtalk was on "brighton".
-Dave