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For the next three days, midday Manhattan-bound D/Q trains will be skipping Prospect Park. Will the shuttle be stopping at the Stillwell-bound platform for a change? That would make for a most exciting ride.
Stopping at the Coney Island-bound would either require single train operation (no x-over) or switching south of Prospect Park.
So I doubt it.
On Saturday I was one preparing to turn around the loop at Government center I got off The Type-7 I was ridding and got on the type-8 car #3814. I rode it out to B.C. and back. Some observations.
1. In the Front and rear sections the ride seemed very smooth and quite In the center section it was no were near as smooth and was not as quite but was still less noisy than the Boeing LRVs are
2. The LEDs on the outside aren't in better then the ones on the Red Line I like the New York ones better.
3. The automated stop announcements were clear although they only worked on the Subway part of the line and announced government center and Kenmore after leaving the stations.
4. I didn't like the interior color scheme other rider seemed to like it better so I guess it is a matter of taste.
5. The door accesses in the front isn't good, I Think there should be one less seat in the front and more room there.
6. I could not stand the Beep Beep Beep every time the door closed.
7. Other passengers seemed to be split 50/50 one weather they liked the exterior look of the car I didn't like but again it most be a matter of taste.
8. Other than the four isolated seats I liked the large amount of window space.
9. It seems passengers would rather stand than climb the three steps. The steps also seemed to slow down unloading times at Park Street and government center.
10. I wonder how long it will take for someone to get injured falling off the steps on a crowded car.
11. The other passengers had an overwhelmingly positive view of the car (bet they don't know the green line should be full of them by now or how much keeping them on the road for the next 20 years is going to cost!)
12. Grade appearance c-
Grade Ride B
Grade maintenance F
I'm glad you finally got to ride it! I ahve yet to ride them since they came back on thurs.
A few replies:
"2. The LEDs on the outside aren't in better then the ones on the Red Line I like the New York ones better"
AGREED!!
"5. The door accesses in the front isn't good, I Think there should be one less seat in the front and more room there."
I dunno, this car has less seats as it is already.
"6. I could not stand the Beep Beep Beep every time the door closed."
hehehe, for some reason I like it, but I know most people don't. Reminds me of the door closing signal on the R110A.
"8. Other than the four isolated seats I liked the large amount of window space."
INDEED! Extra window space is always a plus! Again, I think the seats need to be there.
"9. It seems passengers would rather stand than climb the three steps. The steps also seemed to slow down unloading times at
Park Street and government center.
10. I wonder how long it will take for someone to get injured falling off the steps on a crowded car."
Well, the three steps are just in a different place now. I don't think I would want anybody to fall out the older car while the doors are closing.
"11. The other passengers had an overwhelmingly positive view of the car (bet they don't know the green line should be full of
them by now or how much keeping them on the road for the next 20 years is going to cost!)"
Very true, most non-railfans don't know what is going on; the Herald and Globe have given the trains a limited amount of coverage. Even though the cars may be lemons (I hope that changes), the sleak italian style is quite nice, I'll have to admit!
Cheers,
-Nick
"Sleek Italian Style" ???
Congrats on getting a ride! Any bets on how long this in-service period will last?
So far, they are making the Boeing LRV look good, not only in its present state, but back in its early days, when it gave new meaning to the phrase "break-in"
Gerry
For those who went to the yard late last night, did you come back and hit the hay, or had to let out some excitement here on subtalk? I'm sure we'll all look foward to some reports, and perhaps a few pics too. :-) -Nick
Yes there in (8101). Pics to come soon.
Robert
I was there chillen with Robert (B Division T/O), I shot images of the R-143, and I shot a 1 hour video on the car being taking of the truck and into the yard.
The images I will pass down to Dave Pirrman to place on the site, if any one wants any pre-images, just e-mail me at tlogan@transitalk.com and I'll hook you up!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I was great to see a 100+ foot truck pull up with a train on it's back. There was a Bus Opt. waiting to park a bus in the yard near the gate. He called he wife to tell her what he was seeing. The pic. that Trevor got look great. I was great to have some one to hang out with that I know. I was the only one using a One Shot Cemura, every one else had Dig. cemuras so there pic. must look great. I wish I could get on the train when it's shiped to EN yard. nut if the line Superintendent is there on Fridays he won't let me on. They don't know if they are going to use a R38 as horse or a desel to pull them. The person I spoke to sayed I would be sometime after 8:00pm on Friday, so if someone can get any where down the route to get pic. that would be great. I think it will go down the "A" to W4, switch to the "F" into Essix street cut to the "J" in to EN Yard.
Robert
One more thing. If anyone want's to see a train on Broadway. Get up to the GW bridge after 10:00pm, that is when they let the over side loads go over. It shoud get over the bridge by 11:00pm. The cars goes right down Broadway to 215th street and make a right into the yard.
Robert
Thanks Trevor. I'm putting them on the R143 page right now!
-Dave
Did anyone have a look-see (if you went close enough) if the even numbered cars have the green-type seating?
Not important, just curious.
I took a peak at it today. It's on track 18, the first track as you pass from the shop into the inspection shed (The R-110B's are on track 19).
The seats on this car (8101) are the periwinkle blue seen on the earlier pictures.
The front LED sign is red, like the 142's. (You can see the color of them even when off, like the old red-only signs in many stations). The controller is a stick shift kind like the 142, only it's in the side window. (The 110B is also on the side)
The rumor I heard about the console sitting high in the front windshield is true. It looks almost like it comes up to eye level (when sitting down). It will be very hard to key by with one of these things. You'll probably have to go to full service and open the end door to see if the stop arm went down.
I saw that to. Well I guest I will have to see it for my self on Thursday when I go to see the last one come in for the week. Also the side sign are LED's not LCD's so they are going to be very bright, I don't know what color they are.
Robert
OK. So I understand that an R143 in in da house. Any of you know which track they put the thing on?
I think they sayed that they were going on track 57, in side the barn. Then on Friday they are getting moved to ENY track 7.
Robert
Has anyone down the line been able to pick up a new Amtrak Northeast Corridor schedule book?
At South Station in Boston this morning, all the agent had was a poorly-copied version of the small card. And it had mistakes on it; he had to cross out and write in a few changes before giving it to me.
I did not see the newest NEC schedule books at Washington, D.C., either.
I think there are some schedule and reservation errors on that book so that Amtrak does not put them on the shelves.
Chaohwa
But, I've heard that Amtrak has cut service on the Inland route even MORE.
THANKS AMTRAK!!!!
With luck, I'll have a car by this fall*, and I'll never have to deal with Amtrak's lateness, rude employees, lousey schedules, high prices, crap service, wobbly cars, or terrible track again in my life.
I guess Amtrak is back into that "cut service until we're profitable" mode again.
Well, if they go belly up and I'm desperate, there's always the bus to the always reliable, if not always clean, Metro-North....
*Shhh!!! Don't tell Jersey Mike, but it might even be a '72 nova with a 350 or so small block, among other goodies....
Hey Mike!!! That reminds me - I've got the bike up here in case you ever wanna see my face in person! >:)
What a way to celebrate your 30th birthday, Amtrak. Senility, already?
How much would a 20 year old average diesel loco cost and how much life has it left?
Arti
What I can remember of an article in Railway Age I read a few years ago SD-40-2 were going for up to $200,000..these would have been some 20 years old then; SD45's weren't in much favor except on my former employer MRL, probably because they were cheap..like $45,000. Either of these types could have dated back to the late 60"s, the -2 variety a little newer but these were the bulk of production in the 20 year or so market. l950's built GP 7/9 ran about $65,000. Can't remember it all. Being western I don't know much about GP38, 40 etc...the six motor units were more popular out here.
As for how long they'll last MRL (Montana Rail Link) is running Sd40, 45, and some GP35, some GP9,Sw12, and a rare instance of GP7 and Sw-p, even had 2 SD7's. Not to say they didn't spend a lot of money rehabilitating them but a few have made or may make 40 years of age. These are all GM-EMD of course; the other builders including GE were always disposed of first; maybe now GE has better ones.
Thanks,
So $700K would be grossly overpaying?
Arti
Judging by what I read 2-3 years ago I'd say indeed it would be overpaying. But I don't know the type of loco. involved...for the 20 year figure I pulled as first possibility the SD40-2 the newest of which would now be about 20 years old, the oldest 30 years, and also the most popular unit of its time and what I think is most in demand.
Not sure of the costs, but out here in southern California, we see BNSF running 45-year-old GP9's in local swervices on a daily basis!!! (They sound like absolute crap, too.....like a piston is just about ready to come through the block and body!)
Tuesday's Times has an article on how Robert Kiley is doing in London so far. He has verbally stepped on toes, is at odds with the government, and is appreciated by the press and people.
Randy Kennedy's weekly Tunnel Vision column in Tuesday's Times today relates a ride on Track Geometry Car No. 2 on the F line in Brooklyn.
I got a photo of it at the Times Square (7 line) station on April 6th. It was west of the station (beyond signal A42|C) while three trains terminated and departed on the track (not at the same time though, or Times Square would've been a mess). After the third train left, TGC2 passed through the station, posed for a photo, then left.
I had the opportunity to ride the Track Geometry Car TGC-II a number of years ago ... I bid on this at the last Transit Museum Auction and Tag Sale (that seems so long ago). I opened the bidding and no one counterbid me. Got to spend the day on the 2/5 lines. Very interesting experience.
--Mark
Lets get this baby to pass through the Cranberry tubes and maybe make a recommendation to get rid of the whiplash and the bottom of the tube!
And when will the Rutgars tunnel have its rails welded?
avid
The underpass at Lex 28th Street Station seems to have some construction going on. Does anyone know what they are doing, sealing off that temporarily closed underpass?
Arti
Hello, there. I discovered that the "D" has split service once again this weekend. Between 205 and WTC and bet. Stillwell and West 4th. Can someone please find out why the "B" is not affected? It travels basically on the same route as the "D", in Manhattan.
Because, on weekends, the B's Northern terminal is 21st St/Queensbridge. It does not have to go through that section between 59th St/Columbus Circle and 7th Ave, which is where the work affecting the D is being done. Source: MTA website.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "B"'s northern terminal on weekends is 145th Street, lower level since November of 2000.
Source: MTA Website
I thought that also. But when I checked the info on THE MTA WEBSITE this is what I saw.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it's safe to assume someone working on the MTA Web Site didn't do their homework. The B goes to 145th St on the weekends, and hasn't gone to Queensbridge in months. With the upcoming GO, this will overlap with the E and F service disruption, basically leaving all stations along 53rd St (including 7th Av) as a mess.
Essentially, it would appear that the Bronx D portion is replacing the E to WTC, and to be local from 145 St to WTC to eliminate any switching problems that would result if the D were to remain express.
B service? What B service? The B will more than likely be cut back to 36th St in Brooklyn. From West 4th St to Rockefeller Ctr, that leaves only the F.
Of course, this is mere speculation on my part, since the site fails to mention any B service disruptions and how the D is going to be in Manhattan (local or express).
-Stef
Are the switches from the 8th Ave. local to the 6th Ave. local tracks still in place south of W. 4th St.? If they are, the D could simply run via 8th Ave. to W. 4th and switch over. Just curious.
i was thinking the same.
Going uptown that may be the case. Going downtown would put the D on the F local track at Broadway Lafayette with no place to cross to the express track, hence this GO which is taking place.
-Stef
I know of a few lines where there is a change of the route letter and with that, a change of the zero location. For example, a southbound 2 train leaving Borough Hall is on route K, but approaching Hoyt Street, it is on route E. Route K and Route E have different zero locations (Brooklyn Bridge station for E; 44th and B'way for K).
Another example on the IND E route (used by G trains), there is a point where the line jumps from an extention of IND route B (6th Av-Bklyn Hts line), to an extension of IND route D (Qns Blvd line).
My question is this: On each line, where are the points where the zero changes in terms on both zeroes. For example, on the X line, route U changes to route V at U 217+00, and route V changes to route U at 60+72.
Thanks in advance.
They say that Chambers St is "ground zero" if you will. To list the zero locations are too numerous to mention. For example, on the Q tracks (Canarsie Line), zero is between 6th And 8th Avenues. West of that, the numbers add a W (i.e.Q1-12W).
You are talking about the "chaining" or "station" numbers used
primarily with the signal system. On the IRT, there are many
0 points and the system is very confusing and inconsistent. The IRT
uses 10 foot stationing intervals, so there are about 200 feet
separating signals 950 and 970, for example. However, the numbers
are fudged a little bit. Even numbers are used for northbound
signals and odd numbers for southbound (or maybe it is the other
way around, flip a coin). The BMT and IND both use 100 foot station
intervals but the BMT zeros at Chambers Street while the IND
stationing is based on a theoretical 0 point that is outside of
the bounds of the system.
The best readily available reference is the book Tracks of the NY
Subway. The author posts here sometimes.
When I think of IRT chaining, I think of the last digit of the distance (the track number) separately from the actual measurement, and assume an interval of 100 feet (as in the B-division.) In other words, the information present is the same and is interpreted in the same way, but the presentation format varies slightly. The IRT uses nnnT/L where the BMT and IND use LT/nnn.
On the IRT, even-numbered tracks are southbound, odd-numbered tracks are northbound. 3 and 4 are local, 1 and 2 are express.
Mark
You are right, that is a more logical way of viewing it.
The last digit is the track number which the IRT did PRR-style
1-2-3-4 with 1 being n/b. The only catch is that you can have
a last digit of a signal plate which is 5,6,7 or 8 when two
signals would otherwise have the same number. Certain other
signal equipment locations (junction boxes or enclosures) can
have a last digit of 0 or 9.
...while the IND stationing is based on a theoretical 0 point that is outside of the bounds of the system.
Can you explain the logic behind this? Do you know where that 0 pooint is?
According to Cunningham and DeHart, the center of the IND
universe is West 4 Street. Station numbers increase as you
go northbound and decrease southbound. The only thing is,
West 4 Street isn't 0. There is no 0. The absolute 0
point is out in the NY harbor near Sandy Hook, and the relative 0
at W4 is the distance from there to that point, expressed in
hundreds of feet (presumably as the crow flies).
That's not what I'm talking about (I have the book anyway). I'm talking about where in the system the lines change (where the line changes, the zero could also change to the zero of the respective lines).
If the difference between A and B div rolling stock are slight, I suggest that certain parts and systems be salvaged and reused. In particular, those commponents that make a "single a single." from the #7 Flushing line.
When the r/143s and R/160s begin to flow in and begin service, freeing r/32,40, and 42s IHS the most servicable be converted to single to then add to the consist on Queens Blvd to move up to 660ft cars. These cars should receive a GOH of sorts to arrest the rust thats gone on unchecked. It a short term solution to "car leanness" due to expanded demands.
While trains per hour maybe maxed out, the size of the trains still has a smigin of growth available. 10% at the most.
avid
Slant 40 nose on the front of an R/44!
avid
Bob Backlund for President.
Dave Pirmann for Mayor.
Redbirds on the 1/9....
Redbirds on the 1/9....
You can have 'em! Just give the 7 your R62A's and we'll all be happy.
:-) Andrew
All R33/36 WF's to be repainted in orginal white / aqua black stripe colors with each car named for different state, city or transit executive, including Heypaul.
High Gloss Black must be added for formal occasions, Proms, Weddings and Funnerals of Civic and Transit leaders and Officals! Some done up in a Gothic and Mediterranean style for the devote of all nations and beleifs.
avid
Andrew... pull up a chair.. we got biz'ness to talk about..
:C)
One tired T/O hitting the barn door in the yard could make your wish come true.
My list:
Killing OPTO
Bringing back nighttime express service on Queens Blvd.
Bringing back the round-robin Rockaway Shuttle. Just so I can say that I worked it.
Putting the R38's on the E.
Flip-flopping the N & R flip flop.
Establishing annual tickets with big savings.
Did I mention killing OPTO?
Mine:
1. Put cars with useable railfan windows (R32, 38, 40, 42, 62n/A with conventional cab) on the following lines:
1/9, B, D, F, G
They never seem to have them, especially on the first 4.
I saw a train of 32's on the G today.
I rode a train of R62A cars on the 3 yesterday, with railfan window. I would be happy with them on the 7 if AND ONLY IF they kept the cab width to less than the full width of the car, not like on the other lines the 62's run on.
2. Train location boards visible to everyone on the platform. Without these, you NEVER know where the next train is.
3. Short trains stopping near the only available exit.
I've had several experiences, at places like Northern Blvd station where I miss short (G) trains because the stop sign is at a place where it would be IMPOSSIBLE to see the train from the station entrance. There's only one for each direction, and are both at the south end of the platforms. The platform for Manhattan-bound trains has an "S" sign at the end of the platform, but the 4, 6, 8, and 10 signs are spaced 1 car-length apart from each other, making it impossible to see a G train in the station, also making everyone walk more than they have to in order to get to the exit. They still think Northern Blvd has 2 exits on each platform (it did, but the 56th Street exit closed a LONG time ago.
That's all for now.
>>>The platform for Manhattan-bound trains has an "S" sign at the end of the platform, but the 4, 6, 8, and 10 signs are spaced 1 car-length apart from each other, making it impossible to see a G train in the station, also making everyone walk more than they have to in order to get to the exit.<<<
You mean the 4,6,8,10 are on the Forest Hills side right? As far as the extra walking, it's ONLY 75 feet more.
Yes, the 4, 6, 8, and 10 are on the northbound side. As far as the walking, Some people (especially the elderly) don't like walking more than they have to. The time it takes to walk 75 feet could mean the difference between catching or missing a connecting bus (or train if going the other way).
Restore the final field shunt step and speed up the trains.
Fewer WDs and GTs.
Heypaul for mayor.
I am planning to make some NYC subway routes for a Japanese train sim program called BVE. I inted on making them as accurate as BVE allows (there are lmitations, such as the 25 meter rule: changes in track, platforms, etc. can only be placed at postions that are increments of 25 meters)
Railfan windows are great for getting things like signal numbers, but are not as good when trying to estimate grades.
Where can I obtain drawings where the grades are written, and contain such vital information as location of signals, curve radii, elevation, grades, and platform locations?
If any exist on the internet, point me to the URL.
Thanks in advance.
Wow! This is the most profound article I've seen since 'POPE CONDEMNS PRE-MARITAL SEX'. Specifically, the City edition of today's NEWSDAY cites the signs at the MN Fordham station which indicates the 'C' and 'D' trains are six blocks away at Fordham Road and the Concourse. The rush-hour 'C' to Bedford Park was replaced by the 'B' some three years ago; only recently did someone see fit to rub the 'C' off the sign.
(What's not mentioned is that the sign is on Metro-North property, and as such was installed by that entity. To make matters worse, the OFFICIAL MTA website STILL has the 'C' going to Bedford Park; at least the strip map shows it that way.)
If NEWSDAY wants to really delve into this subject, there's loads of other such outdated, misleading or just plain wrong directional signs all over the system.
I saw a far less accurate sign at Fordham last summer of similar intent. It had the Pelham Parkway/White Plains station of the '2' and '5' a mere six blocks in the other direction! In truth, it's about ten blocks along Fordham Road from the station to Southern Boulevard, then another half-mile through Bronx Park (narrow sidewalks alongside speeding traffic), through the cloverleaf interchange for the Bronx River Parkway and across the wide intersection with Boston Road before you get to WPR. I pity anyone who ever took this sign seriously.
The uptown platform at Fulton Street still has a sign depicting the 'M' to Metropolitan still stopping there all day between rush hours on weekdays. Back in 1995 or '96, it was cut back to Chambers midday, only running to and from lower Nassau and through Montague during rush hours themselves. Since the old sign remains, there is no advisory to take the 'J' to Chambers for midday 'M' service. Anyone who tries to wait for a Queens-bound 'M' at 11:00 am on the strength of this outdated sign is in for a nasty surprise and a steady parade of 'J' trains.
The southern end of Cortlandt Street on the 'N' and 'R' is closed weekends, but you'd never know it at first, because the signs on the platform say "OPEN 6AM-7PM." It does NOT say M-F, which implies you can exit there during the stated hours during weekends as well. I had a long argument of semantics with both the token clerk and the station manager, both of whom asserted that it's not necessary to specify M-F; if the exit were open on weekends, the sign would say 'DAILY'.
This stop is very popular with tourists, and while they won't be able to tell by this 'logic' that the exit is closed, potential muggers sure might.
Can't resist one more: In the mezzanine of Woodhaven Boulevard/Slattery Plaza, a sign lists all the buses available on street level, among them the Q23. Sorry- the 23 is available a full three stops away.
Aren't you glad we've got the media on our side?
Such as:
- A stairway sign at the the Van Wyck Boulevard station on the F line in Queens pointing you to "Van Wyck Boulevard" - a roadway that was replaced by Robert Moses' Van Wyck Expressway in the 1950's; (the station has since been renamed "Briarwood-Van Wyck" but the offending stairway sign is still there);
- The Woodlawn station at the Bronx end of the 4 line pointing you to "Woodlawn Road," which doesn't exist;
- A mural on the wall on the Fulton St 2/3 station pointing one to a never-built stairway;
- Tiled signs at the 50th Street C/E station pointing one to 51th and 49th Street exits, which are long closed;
- A tiled sign at the Delancey St station on the F pointing to a "Broome Street" stairway, eliminated years ago;
and many, many others.
There is a sign that is still up that is visible on the Interboro Pkwy that says Union Tpke--E,F,GG,N. That was never correct.
How about a northbound bus sign on Kissena Blvd around Laburnum Av that says that the Q22 and Q35 stop there instead of the Q25 and Q34.
BTW, car #5955 door panel #16 still has the old "Please keep hands" letter stickers on it......look for it.
Is there anywhere on an active line we can still find one of the old-style signs, "Do not enter or cross upon the tracks"?
Whoops, wasn't it, "Do not enter upon or cross the tracks"?
Yes, on the IRT, don't remember which station but might be 23rd on the Lex... I've photographed it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For that matter the signs on the Union Tpke station mention the Interboro Parkway, which has been called the Jackie Robbinson Pkwy for several years now.
:-) Andrew
But this makes more sense, since everybody still calls it the interboro.
Would you complain that the signs on the B, D, F, Q in Manhattan point to 6th Avenue and not Avenue of the Americas?
I don't call 6th Av that longer version, neither does the subway. How could it be displayed on the R46 signs if they referred to 6th Avenue like that?
F AV OF AMER LCL? I don't think so. The L train station is still 6th Avenue as well. It's just easier to say "6th Avenue" (4 syllables) than it is to say "Avenue of the Americas" (9 syllables).
There are even "6th Ave." street signs along with the official "Av. of Americas" signs. I've never heard anyone refer to it as anything except 6th Ave.
IIRC the R-32s had "D-Av of Americas Express" side route signs at one time. I could be wrong, though.
The elevator at 168th still says "A B level". Nw that was 4 years ago (It seems this may be cut out in the metal, and thus hard to replace)
I got a better one. On the downtown upper level platform at 145th Street, there are a couple of signs pointing to the stairs for the lower level reading:
Downtown & Brooklyn (C)(D)
And to top it all off, a (C) train was arriving when I took the picture!
Click here to see it (20.0-27).
Most maps on the Boston T still show the "E" branch of the Green Line terminating at Arborway.
And this morning I rode a CTA Red Line train that was apparently bound for Ford City. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, if it stayed on the elevated structure instead of using the State St. subway, it could wind up there.
Not for a while. The Ford City extension hasn't even been built yet. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
On the upper-level downtown local platform (C,E) at West 4th Street, some (but not all) of the new platform-edge signs say "Downtown via 3 Av Local" (yes, Third!!!).
Even if this is a typo, mistaking a 3 for an 8, where are the supervisors, the station masters and superintendents? How do signs like that get installed in the first place? They've been there for a few months.
The funny thing about that one is that even when the sign is right it's wrong. The (A)(C)(E) run down Sixth Avenue south of West 4th St, while the (B)(D)(F)(Q) turn down Houston. But then, if they posted it that way it might be even more confusing than the current system. Maybe if you called the lower "8th Ave" the Church St line or something.
:-) Andrew
Gee that's amusing. Like the time when the new white and black signs were installed featuring the following gaffs.
34th St on the Broadway BMT subway...........PATH Trains
PCRR
That's PCRR as in Penn Central Railroad.
The street entrance to the Bway-7th Ave 34th st/Penn Station sign at 7th and 33rd said......34th St-Penn Sta
(1)(2)(3)(9)
CONRAIL-LIRR-Amtrak
Path trains to New Jersey
I Photographed this after Conrail got out of the commuter rail business. It should have read NJ TRansit. These signs have since been corrected.
Bill "Newkirk"
Uh-oh. Oops!
Uh-oh. Oops!
In general, signs in the subway for MN or LIRR stations are either inaccurate or less than helpful. There are signs in both the Lafayette Ave. stop on the C and the Fulton St. stop on the G indicating that there's an LIRR stop in the general vicinty, but you'd *never* find it going on that alone.
Well, it is two blocks away from the Fulton St "G" stop. Finding the correct way to walk can be tricky.
There was (maybe still is) a sign at Fulton pointing to the JFK express. Pic on my website.
If you're talking about the one by the 4/5, it's gone. Disappeared in the rehab.
PATH fare control level at WTC, next to the Internet kiosk-- there's a "current" subway map, showing the JFK Express!
I have a few pictures of the April Fools' Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred. I only have a few in the album at this time but I'll be adding more soon. Go to http://photos.yahoo.com/jeffalterman so you can view the photos.
BMTJeff
I don't see any pictures up there.
There might be a problem with the website at this time. Try again. I might also try to put them somewhere else if I can.
BMTJeff
This is an independant film by unknown director Marc Singer who documented the homeless living under Penn Station and the subway system in NYC. It is shot in Black in white, has sceens from around NYC and dipicts the brutal horror of being homeless. You really get to appreciate what you have coming out of this documentary. Many shots of the tracks with the trains going by.
I'm from Montreal, it is now playing here. I was wondering if anybody else had seen it and if it was playing in NYC? If so, must see!!
Newsday's article:
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/mta501.htm
Am I repeating a posting someone else has already provided?
Keeping signage up to snuff is a complicated task, but I'm glad people are pointing attention to a lapse here.
Also, printed maps are often wrong and incomplete regarding ADA access (a pet issue of mine). This is not trivial, since I've witnessed people nearly injure themselves at a station which did have an elevator - only they didn't know to look for one.
On the positive side, MTA did update its printed maps last November regarding ADA stations.
While E-Mailing one of my railfan buddies I met while in New York, it occurred to me one suggestion that might even make sense coming from me. To wit, how come nothing is in the works to extend the subway system, or build a spur to LaGuardia or Kennedy Airports? I remember last April 1 when I barely made it to me flight at LaG because the bus I hopped on in Jackson Heights took forever to get through all those lights and stop signs getting to the airport. It would seem more convenient if an El train or subway could get customers to the airports more quickly and efficiently. I'd appreciate your take on this my fellow railfans.
No offense but, read the "airtrain" threads....
-Dave
Ooops Dave. Offense on me. I did not read them thinking they were concerning themselves with something in the air. My goof.
You're joking, right? Have you been following the numerous threads on this?
Well, I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Here is what we have now:
1) AirTrain connecting JFK terminals to the subway and LIRR in '02 and '03
2) Howard Beach converted to full airport and ADA access
Active proposals at MTA, study phase and construction money available in Capital Plan:
-Extension of N subway to LaGuardia. Still has political hurdles to overcome. Could be built if those political hurdles are overcome. Otherwise, alternatives include use of 63rd St branch, or branch north under Steinway Street then east.
Also: E train tail tracks close to LIRR ROW; theoretically possible to extend to JFK but probably won't. I personally would favor some E train extension southeast, because southeast Queens would get more new subway service.
Active proposals at MTA, study phase and construction money available in Capital Plan:
-Extension of N subway to LaGuardia. Still has political hurdles to overcome. Could be built if those political hurdles are overcome.
"Overcoming the political hurdles" = making extortionate payments to the people living along the proposed elevated extension (fortunately, just a few blocks) so they won't file lawsuits and endlessly delay the project.
"Overcoming the political hurdles" = making extortionate payments to the people living along the proposed elevated extension
(fortunately, just a few blocks) so they won't file lawsuits and endlessly delay the project."
I hate it, too, but short of deporting NIMBYs to Siberia and renting their apartments exclusively to Subtalkers, options are limited.
Te real world's a bitch, eh?
"Overcoming the political hurdles" = making extortionate payments to the people living along the proposed elevated extension (fortunately, just a few blocks) so they won't file lawsuits and endlessly delay the project.
Tsk, tsk... You New Yorkers have so much to learn from Chicago. :-)
City Hall simply needs to send a few building inspectors over to these people's houses to turn up some dubious building code violations to use as a club over them, or possibly make some appropriate adjustments to their property tax assessments. If they still insist on filing lawsuits, you only need to pull a few strings and insure that the cases were being heard by a judge who owes his career to the "organization." Meanwhile, exploit every legal loophole possible to proceed with construction. Create a few new loopholes if you need to.
It would also help to keep plans for the extension under wraps for as long as possible, and then annouce plans for construction approximately two hours before construction actually begins. Give the NIMBY's as little time as possible to react. If you absolutely must have public hearings, make sure they're not well-publicized, and hold them in Antarctica. If NIMBY's still find their way to the hearing and yell and scream at you, smile politely and tell them you understand their concerns without giving any specifics. Then proceed with construction as planned. If their local city council member raises a fuss, make sure a few of his cronies get a piece of the construction action, or play "let's make a deal" and agree to fix all the potholes in his district. If he is actually a man of integrity and doesn't play along, see to it that he is crushed in the next election by a loyal team player.
Not the most democratic process in the world, but it's how things work in the City That Works. Chicago would have had that LaGuardia extension built decades ago. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't know whether to clap or throw up. I visited Chicago in 1998 and was deeply impressed. It is a clean city now, and the people are very friendly. That was amazing. But dirty politics that screw innocent people is not my idea of democracy, and while it would not work in New York, I know it wouldn't in California either. There has to be a better way. Embittering people and payoffs is not the way to run a city. I'm sure Chicago's greatness is due to many other factors. Besides if you read up on your history Chicago didn't exactly get it done in 1968 when your late Mayor Daley tried to muscle anti-war protesters and the result was a bloody riot that made Chicago for a time the laughing stock of the country.
My posting was mostly tongue-and-cheek. That said, City Hall has a pretty good track record for making NIMBY opposition go away, particularly when it threatens a pet project. Nobody ever said it was a pretty process.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"City Hall simply needs to send a few building inspectors over to these people's houses to turn up some dubious building code
violations to use as a club over them, or possibly make some appropriate adjustments to their property tax assessments. If they
still insist on filing lawsuits, you only need to pull a few strings and insure that the cases were being heard by a judge who owes
his career to the "organization." Meanwhile, exploit every legal loophole possible to proceed with construction. Create a few
new loopholes if you need to."
There are elements of that practiced in Philly - but SEPTA never seems to benefit from it.
No joke Ron. I honestly (or stupidly) belived Airtrain had something to do with something in the sky. The name air threw me. Well before I go off on a tangent I will read all the posts.
I didn't mean that to be harsh, only comical. I apologize.
This makes so much sense it hurts.
E_DOG
Forget it. This is NYC we are talking about.
While direct train to the plane routes are needed, if the M60 was utilized correctly, people might actually ride it! I had the same problem on the M60 except I left plenty of extra time when I rode it. In fact, the first time (out of 2) that I rode it, there were no problems.
The M60 is a handy route, providing intermodal east-west service from Manhattan. It's a good route, deserving of improvements. But we still need rail access to LGA.
But until that rail access is built, the M60 is our only alternative from Manhattan that reaches almost every subway line in the city.
What about the Q33? At the risk of turning this into something that belongs on BusTalk, which one is faster? M60 or Q33? I rode the Q33 to and from the LGA with no problems. Of course, it was on a Saturday and Sunday that I rode it, so that might make a difference. I never rode the M60.
I don't know. Haven't actually ridden the M60 (did ride the Q48 once).
They should extend the subway to the airports. How about an extension from the Astoria line to LaGuardia and an extend from around Howard Beach to JFK and special trains can run on both lines. This would be a cost effective way to provide door to door service from Midtown-Manhattan to both of the airports and no special equipment would be needed and it might even be faster than a taxicab.
BMTJeff
Amtrak was founded (May 1, 1971).
Yes, indeed. Amtrak, otherwise known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Thanks for posting that.
And that was two days before I was born. (In other words, I'm two days away from my 30th Birthday.)
:-) Andrew
Look out! It's a killer!!
E_DOG
I entered high school in the fall of 1971.
May 7, 1967 was another milestone date for me. It was on that date that I was treated to an earful for the first time from an express roaring past 81st St. along CPW. Later that day, I caught a glimpse of backlit "Coney Island" side destination signs on a prewar D train.
So much RR history in May whether transit or long distance? The first transon connection made near Ogden, UT I believe (Promontory Point)the date for a fact May 10, 1869.
Maybe there was a reason I was born in May....May 5, el cinco de mayo is a big holiday in Mexico. Oh well...58 this time around.
Hey I'm in the 58 window too. Know the feeling.
Today's anniversaries (May 1st):
Current F service via the lower level between Avenue X and Stillwell Av begins 5/1/20.
IRT service extended from Boro Hall to Atlantic Av on 5/1/08.
Other anniversaries in May:
Culver Shuttle closes 5/13/75.
IRT Extension from 145 St to 148 St-Lenox Term opens on 5/13/68.
Current IRT Extension from 111 St to Willets Point opens 5/14/27.
Subway service begins on the Dyre Av Line 5/15/41.
J/Z Extension from Cypress Hills and 111 St opens 5/28/17 (note: 168 St ext. opened July 3,1918)
Upper level between West 8 St and Stillwell Av opens 5/29/19.
Newer construction replaces older construction between Ocean Pkwy and West 8 St on 5/30/17.
Nassau St BMT service begins between Chambers St and the Montague St Tunnel starts on 5/30/31.
Canarsie Line service extended from 6 Av to 8 Av on 5/30/31.
IRT service begins between Hunts Point Av and 177 St-Parkchester on 5/30/20.
Not to be off topic but another New York City landmark opened this day as well; the Empire State Building in 1931. I've read that from its 86th story observatory you could track a Third Avenue El train from the Bowery up to Spanish Harlem.
E_DOG
Not to be off topic but another New York City landmark opened this day as well; the Empire State Building in 1931. I've read that from its 86th story observatory you could track a Third Avenue El train from the Bowery up to Spanish Harlem.
Quite possible, as there weren't many tall buildings outside the Wall Street area at the time.
Interesting historical note: the ESB was known in its early years as the Empty State Building, having opened during the depths of the Great Depression.
It stayed that way until WWII. It seems that being hit by a B-25 in 1945 didn't hurt business. That said, if the Third Avenue El existed today, you'd have a hard time seeing it at all.
Eric D. Smith
It is said that elevators didn't go past the 35th floor - except for the ones going to the observatory. They would turn on lights in vacant offices on upper floors at night to give the impression the building had greater occupancy than in actuality.
The Fulton Street bus hit the Empire State? Kind of off course-
Seriously, the building probably remained under-occupied by the double impacts of the Depression and the war, both of which depleted the white-collar workforce.
It's funny how it took less than two years to complete the building, but the three-station Archer extension took over ten. Especially when you consider all the advancements in engineering and technology that did not yet exist in 1930!
Could it be those miserable unions?
And of course, how could anyone forget:
MAY DAY!
Any transit history on November 7?
Sorry, I couldn't find anything for Nov.7th.
Closest ones were:
#7 line begins service between Hunters Point Av and Queensboro Plaza on 11/5/16.
#1 service extended from 145 St to 157 St on 11/12/04.
Do R142A cars have the philosophical equivalent of the
old inshot valves? I ask because I have observed that under
moderate to heavy service applications, I can hear the brake
shoes squealing even at 20 MPH or so. Pelham Bay Dave and
other m/m: have you been seeing friction brake lights come
on under these circumstances? Train Dude and other CE types:
should they? I would think at 20 MPH the friction brakes should
still be held off.
Those friction brakes squeal like a scene out of Deliverance
and when they reach the final stop, either they are locking
the wheels for the last 6-12 inches, or they are just chattering
really badly. Of course, this is only when t/o make their final
stop at full service, which is a reprehensible practice.
>>>Of course, this is only when t/o make their final
stop at full service, which is a reprehensible practice.<<<
Any T/O who consistently performs full service stops should have their handles taken away and placed in the middle of the train where they belong. They are an embarrassment to the system.
Sometime on the R68's & A's you have to use full serivec to stop the train. They sometime just don't want to stop. esp. at slow sppeds.
Robert
Sometimes is ok, otherwise you can overshoot a marker. I do it if necessary. But not every stop like a few that I know.
I been hearing this alot on Subtalk reading these postings. First off, which branch? Second is this really gonna happen? or is it just talk like the 2nd avenue subway
That would be the Atlantic branch that goes through Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale. Here's a picture as the branch diverges southeast from the Main Line just east of Jamaica
Luv those signal cables Bob !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
If you are referring to the Atlantic Branch (from Jamaica to the Nassau County border) as Bob Andersen says, I would say it is a dead letter.
In short, its time has passed. It was to carry subway trains from the Archer Avenue subway (I forget which level) to southeastern Queens. Much of the connection has been built. I recall watching its construction over a period of many months while riding in on the LIRR. However, two outside events have occurred which probably doom it. First, the FRA has stiffened regulations about running compliant and non-compliant equipment on the same line. So there is no longer any possibility of running both LIRR and NYCT on the same tracks, Second is that the LIRR service needs have changed so that it isn't possible for the Long Island to give up the line completely to subway service, which would be necessary in order to avoid conflict with the FRA.
I can see only two ways that this could possibly be pulled out. One would be for NYCT to take over the entire LIRR Rockaway Branch (and possibly reconnect at Far Rockaway--wouldn't SubTalkers love THAT). But this is currently illegal under NYS Public Authorities Law and I believe it would politically unpopular anyway.
The other way would be if the line could be broadened to 4 tracks so that LIRR and subway trains could be operationally separate. I don't think the current right-of-way is near wide enough, and the expense of acquisition and construction would be too high, plus who know what the local community would think of it.
I suppose since the subways and the LIRR share the same parent agency, the MTA could tunnel beneath the ROW to create a new subway line while leaving the commuter rail link intact. More expensive to be sure, but the IND was able to build beneth the BMT's Fulton St. el 65 years ago, so it's not unprecedented.
But the original idea for the line was to get a new subway service cheap, and burrowing under the current line sure ain't cheap.
I know. The advantage, such that it is, would be presumably to avoid having to dig under regular streets and displace the cable, phone, water, gas and sewer lines less by following the LIRR's right-of-way.
It's certainly not as cheap than just taking over the LIRR line or even widening the ROW to handle four tracks (like WMATA's Red Line north of the Beltway), but cheaper than following the established streets, and less likely to incur the normal NIMBY assault.
"I suppose since the subways and the LIRR share the same parent agency, the MTA could tunnel beneath the ROW to create a new subway line while leaving the commuter rail link intact"
The subway was tunneled under the LIRR and ends south of the LIRR approach to Jamaica. I and other hearty railfans went on an ERA "walking tour" of the entire Archer Ave subway, both levels before the subway opened in the mid 80's.
The upper level (E)past Jamaica Center decends goes under the LIRR and ascends then stops. I was there and photographed this tunnel. Not sure if trains can access these tracks that far or is there a bumping block back towards Jamaica Center.
Bill "Newkirk"
Three trains can be stored on each track in the back of Parsons/Archer on the upper level. That makes it about 2000-2100 feet of tunnel( 1 train = 600 feet x 3 = 1800 + about another 2-300 feet from the station to the first train) to the bumping block and the tunnel only goes about 50 feet past the block. There is an emergency exit back there that mentions South road, I believe. It can be very treacherous walking through the trains back there. The banks on the curves are great and it is hard to keep your balence if you walk to fast. Like one has been drinking. The lower level only holds one train 480 feet in length and continues straight on Archer Ave. At the very back one can see in the roadbed that a provision was made for a diamond crossover. The provision only goes half way before ending at the wall
That's a great post. Very informative, answers questions I hadn't thought to ask before.
Thank you very much.
Oh, it was the upper level of Archer Avenue you're referring to. The lower level, the J train, has tail tracks continuing a short ways down Archer Avenue.
Maybe on day they could extend it to Merrick Blvd, or a little further...
IIRC the J/Z line was supposed to continue to Hollis.
I would have it go to Belmont via Archer, Jamaica and Hempstead Avenues.
Maybe one day it will, or get part of the way there. Never give up hope. :0)
What pubic authorities law (typo intended)? I thought the MTA could operate anywhere in the twelve county MTA district, and that both the MTA and NYCTA are STATE agencies.
"Public Authorities Law, Chapter 43-A of the Consolidated Laws of the State of New York, Article 7, Title 15 - New York City Transit Authority."
Despite the erstwhile taste for granting broad powers to super-authorities, these powers don't abrogate the laws that created the constituent agencies, just as the merging of railroads don't negate leases of the predecessor roads, or even necessarily eliminate their corporate existence.
MTA is the umbrella agency. NYCTA is still a separate organization, and it is a public benefit agency for the benefit of the City of New York.
There is also the Lower Montauk Branch, which is the direct route for diesel trains between Jamaica and Long Island City. It sees very few trains per day, and IMHO it would be perfect for some kind of subway service.
Even that, however, would require electrification, some building of stations, removal of grade crossings, and connections to existing lines. Still, the tracks are already there, and you can't tell me the LIRR really needs them. It seems like too good a thing to pass up.
The way I would do it is to have something branching off the 53rd St tunnel just "south" (west) of 23-Ely (the tunnel will some capacity freed up when the F vacates it), then head down south into the existing line, with connections to the 7 at Hunterspoint and the G at 21-Van Anst. Then it would go along with as few stations as we could get away with (one should connect it to the M) then have it merge with the J/Z in Richmond Hill. Or maybe it could turn down Hillside and merge with the F before Sutphin.
That would be a significant and much-needed boost to capacity.
:-) Andrew
That's a great idea, actually. It frees the LIRR to send diesel equipment elsewhere, and gives the MTA an opportunity to clean up the route - eliminate trash, debris, close gate crossings, build sound walls, plant greenery, maybe even put part of the line in a box and create public green space above it (like Boston's Big Dig), provide a whole new set of ADA-compliant stations -in short, do a lot of cool things that might even win over NIMBYs.
Unfortunately, it has a price tag. But it is a cool idea. First step is to win over the politicians representing the area. Who knows...
:0)
The Montauk Line in the City is a major, major freight operation. Using it for subway service, while it has been proposed (other proposals for it have included light rail and road-rail buses) would be incredibly expensive these days. You would need at least three tracks where in some places you only have one (2 subway, 1 dedicated freight). You would have to deal with grade crossings and freight facilities on both sides of the track.
Oh, and did I mention a hostile local community...
Paul is right. The community did kill it. The MTA went around Queens back in 1984 for input about additional construction to reach more Queens riders while at the same time easing Queens Blvd. Several ideas were floated around.
NO ADDITIONAL CONSTRUCTION: End the subway at 21 St.
QUEENS BY-PASS EXPRESS: This plan had 2 by-pass tracks from 71 St/Continental Ave. through to the 21 St. connection. The plan is rather vague but appears to run along the LIRR mainline after leaving the subway at 71 St. Stations were planned for Woodside and then Northern Blvd. before connecting into 21 St. Service would be provded from both 179 St. and Parsons/Archer to 6 Ave and 7 Ave/Broadway.
QUEENS BLVD. LOCAL CONNECTION: This is what we have today (21 St. to Queens Blvd.). A note: Even way back then they already had their plans to cut the G at Court Square. It is mentioned.
SUBWAY/LIRR MONTAUK TRANSFER: This plan called for the extension of the 21 St. tunnel a little further to a transfer station in Sunnyside yard. Passengers would then transfer to Queens oriented LIRR service that would operate to the Atlantic branch and Hollis and Queens Village on the main line. This would require the Montauk line to be electrifed. Trains would make stops at Richmond Hill and it is mentioned that trains for mainline stations would not be stopping at Jamaica.
MONTAUK/ARCHER AVENUE SUBWAY: With this last alternative, subway service would be provided on the Montauk line. Trains from 6 Ave. and 7 Ave./Broadway would use the 63 St. tunnel to 21 St., through Sunnyside yard to the Montauk line with stops at Sunnyside, Fresh Pond Road, Woodhaven Blvd. and Richmond Hill. At Richmond Hill, the subway would leave the Montauk line and connect to the Archer Avenue subway. It is not mentioned but one can assume that the subway would connect to the Jamaica elevated to reach the Archer Ave. subway. 121 St. is not mentioned as a stop. The stickler with this plan is that the J line would be cut back and terminate at Crescent. St. Once again, this plan would have called for the Montauk line to be electrified.
Back then, the LIRR wasn't too high on the freight business but now that the New York and Atlantic is around, it is a different story. With renewed interest in freight and carloads slowly increasing, it would be harder to get the Montauk now. By the way, did Paul mention the community? NIMBY.
One further comment about the community opposition. This has shifted over the years. Originally I would say mostly ethnic/racial. In the 60's it would probably have been expressed in, say, Maspeth, as "My community hasn't undergone the changes in much of the rest of the City, including racial change and increases in crime. If we get a subway, it will."
My more recent observation suggests that a modern statement would be more classically NIMBY, i.e., "I've got a railroad in my backyard now. I'd like to see them close it. I'm sure as hell not going to stand for them doing anything to make it busier.
"My more recent observation suggests that a modern statement would be more classically NIMBY, i.e., "I've got a railroad in
my backyard now. I'd like to see them close it. I'm sure as hell not going to stand for them doing anything to make it
busier. "
Overcoming that is not impossible. It is a challenge. Here are some steps which public authorities have found helpful:
1) Understand that NIMBY does not equal COMMUNITY. Too many people make the mistake of thinking that a few loudmouths represent the whole community. They don't.
2) Finding out who the "opinion leaders" are and why they think the way they do. Not everyone (not even a majority) is against a subway.
3) Coming up with specific answers to legitimate problems which the neighborhood "opinion leaders" and others have.
4) Appointing a critic to a panel with some delegated power to make decisions over routing, improvements, stations.
5) Providing specific inducements and concessions which the local elected officials have identified are important, and associating them with it. This is not simply "buying off" - this is often also a way to give the community something it genuinely needs and wants, as well as getting a vital project done.
4) Communication, communication, communication
5) Offering specific concessions to people, and meeting them face-to-face, one on one, to put a "human face" to the project. (Invite them to a lunch meeting at the MTA.)
6) Realizing that some NIMBYs will remain - allow them to vent, celebrate and respect their First Amendment rights - and move on with the project.
For example, the quote above may reflect as much the cruddy environment around the railroad as the railroad itself. If you ask, "What if we really made this place look pretty and got rid of the noise, and helped you get to work? Would you help us figure out how to do that?" you're answering two of the objections. Noise barriers, a cleanup and planting/landscaping effort, putting part of the track in a big box and putting a park and tennis courts on top of it, are examples of how one might accomplish that.
This is easy for me to post, and damn hard to accomplish (esp. for MTA, it seems) - but not impossible. This is New York, where opinions are like rear ends (everyone has at least one). But it can be done.
1888 was a vintage year. It was the year of the Great Blizzard and it was the year Benjamin Harrison won the presidency while losing the popular vote (sound familiar?). It was also the year that three great elevated lines were opened in Brooklyn; the Fulton Street, the Myrtle Avenue, and Broadway Els. The first two lines are, like practically everyone else living in that year, dead and gone. Yet happily the Broadway El endures. Let us resolve to do all that we can to keep it that way.
Eric D. Smith
Boy oh boy, where to begin...
My evening commute, normally via the CTA Red Line from Jackson to Berwyn, got off to a normal start. I even managed to get a decent seat next to a cute young lady as I boarded at Jackson. One of the advantages of getting on at Jackson is that since it's the first downtown stop for northbound trains, one can usually grab a seat before the train fills to capacity at subsequent stops.
This evening the train was unusually crowded because of a large number of people headed to the Cubs game at Wrigley Field in addition to the normal evening rush crowd.
We proceeded normally up past Clark/Division before stopping abruptly in the tunnel before getting to North/Clybourn. After standing there for a while (I forget how long, since I was dozing in and out of sleep at this time), we proceeded to North/Clybourn, made the station stop, and proceeded onward. We abruptly stopped again about 200 feet short of the subway portal at Willow, and stayed there. No word from the T/O about what was causing the delay.
After about fifteen minutes of standing there in the tunnel like this, the air conditioning and interior lights go out. At the same time, a set of work lights hung from the tunnel wall went out. It was pretty obvious that the third rail power had been cut off. The only light sources were from the emergency lights above each door, and the tunnel lights. Without air circulation, the interior of the crowded subway car quickly became very stuffy.
We all sat there like that for the next half hour. The only announcement from the T/O was the occasional pre-recorded message that went something like, "Your attention please. We are being delayed due to a medical emergency. Rescue personel have been notified, and we expect to be moving shortly." This canned announcement repeated itself a few times over the next half-hour.
Finally, with air inside the car almost to a suffocating level, passengers at each end of the car propped open the storm doors in hopes of getting some fresh air. Before long, others had pulled the emergency-release knob above each of the side doors and opened them up as well.
After sitting like this for a few more minutes, people were growing increasingly restless, and finally a few left the train altogether and walked down the emergency walkway to the tunnel portal, which was visible from the train. With my bladder growing increasingly full from a long day of drinking instant iced tea at the office, I said hell with it and made my way down the walkway as well. I knew there were a set of emergency exit doors just beyond the portal, so I took off in that direction. By this time there was a steady stream of several dozen people all walking through the tunnel. I passed the operator's cab at the front of the train, and the T/O was sitting in his seat and facing forward with sort of a blank stare as the passengers filed past his window.
As I got past the portal, there was another Red Line train on the el up ahead, with its doors open and a number of people on the tracks walking back toward the emergency exit or forward to the next station at Armitage. In addition, there was a Brown Line train on the el directly overhead, also with people on the catwalk beside the train.
I exited the ROW at the emergency exit, and continued walking north through the alley under the el toward Armitage. As I got closer to Armitage, I noticed several Chicago firefighters up on the el, shouting at people to get back on their trains. Up at the Armitage stop, there was a Purple Line train standing in the station up above, and a lot of water dripping from the el structure in the immediate vincinity. I got out onto the street, which had several fire trucks, ladder trucks, and about a million cops standing around. The station house was roped off with yellow police tape, and the street under the el was covered with water. The sulphuric smell of an electrical fire was hanging in the air. I asked a cop what had happened, and he confirmed that a train had caught on fire.
I ducked into a neighborhood bar and relieved myself, and headed back out to the street to watch the action. The northbound Purple Line train standing in the station above was dark and empty with all the doors open, but with no visible damage that I could see. As best as I could tell, the consist was as follows:
(north) 2590-2589-2568-2567-2548-2547 (south)
Based on the location of the cluster of firefighters and CTA personel standing up on the el, car 2548 appeared to be the fire victim.
The local CBS affiliate had a TV news crew interviewing people, and I listened in on what they were saying. According to one passenger, the car was filling up with smoke, and once in the station at Armitage, somebody notified the T/O via emergency intercom that there appeared to be a fire. The T/O walked back to the car in question, apparently shrugged his shoulders, and then went back to his cab and began to pull the train out of the station. At this point somebody pulled the emergency release for the doors and held them open to prevent the T/O from closing them as passengers evacuated the car.
The reporter then asked me about what I saw, so I told him about being stuck on the Red Line train back in the tunnel, and everybody leaving the train via the emergency exit. Apparently this will be broadcast on the 10:00 PM news tonight, so Chicago SubTalkers just may see me on TV tonight.
By the time we finished up here, third rail power was restored, and CTA personel were attempting to pull the disabled train out of the station. After a couple of false starts they finally got it moving, although a few of the wheels seemed to be dragging as it pulled out.
They finally re-opened the station, and I made my way up to the platform. I took the next Purple Line train up to Fullerton and transferred back to the Red Line there. My Red Line ride from there on was rather uneventful until we got to Lawrence, where our T/O gave us about ten seconds notice that he was running express to Loyola. Those of us who were getting off before Loyola got off the train while grumbling a few choice phrases directed at the CTA, and after a few minutes yet another Red Line train took me to my home station of Berwyn.
So that's my evening commute in a nutshell... It only took four trains and two hours longer than normal to get home. Chalk up another one to the brain trust at the CTA. (On a positive note, at least the escalator at Jackson is now operational. It had been out of order since at least early March.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I just watched the CBS news at 10:00, and they actually showed my little mini-interview! Kudos to WBBM-TV for obviously having the good taste to grace their airwaves with my handsome face and voice.
One of the other people who I watched them interview turned out to be none other than Krank Kruesi, president of the CTA. Unfortunately, I didn't know it was him at the time, and didn't think to check if he arrived by rail, bus, or stretch limo.
In the newscast, they mentioned that in addition to the incident at Armitage, there was a track fire on the Red Line at Chicago Avenue which also caused significant delays. Hell of an evening to be a CTA passenger, I guess.
-- David
Chicago, IL
where is Aaron Renn when we need him?
I saw ya on the 12:30 rebroadcast. If I ever see you on a train I'll say whassup!
Knowing CTA, people were still getting on downtown expecting regular service. Those train people, they have a hard time using the telephone
You didn't mention, didja get your $1.50 fifty back? LOL
We NYers had better stop complaining for a while. We've had a few 15 minute delays here and there, but I haven't had a ride like THAT one since the early 1990s.
If such a situation were to occur in the NYC Subway system, how easy would it be to get out of the car and walk to the next station (let alone open the doors for circulation)? Am I wrong, or is there no "emergency" door-opening mechanism in our rolling stock which is accessible by passengers? Okay, if you were on an R-32, 33, 36, 38, or 40, I guess you could use the end storm-door (but it still would be hard to bypass the safety chains to get to the emergency walkway), but what about an R-44, 46, 62, or 68? Those end-doors are locked. I would hate to be stuck in one of our cars if it were on fire. I wouldn't know how to get out! What am I forgetting?
The windows in the end doors of the 75 foot cars have no metal frame around them. They can be kicked out quite easily in the event of an emergency. The TA does not advertise this fact, however, for obvious reasons. So, people should hope that they have a railfan in the car that they are in, in the event of emergency.
BTW R62s do not have their end doors locked.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW R62s do not have their end doors locked.
Whoops, you're right. My mind was on the B-division, and the R-68 and R-62 are roughly the same vintage.
I assume the emergency switch located at the end of each 75 foor car is still there and operable and would unlock the storm door in an emergency. They had a seal on them originally, guess they still do but what to break the seal with is another story. The 75 foot cars were a great idea and have their place..in history as well, but NO train on ANY railroad whether outdoors or underground should have passage from one car to another restricted. Therefore the return to 60 foot cars is fitting if less efficient.
On the Chicago scene as much as I love their L I hate to think of the danger in walking those tracks. Admittedly Mr. Cole's train was stuck in the subway but for those who haven't seen most of the original Chicago L lines between close clearances, uncovered 3rd rail and no side catwalksyou wouldn't want to have to walk them.
emergency switch located at the end of each 75 foot car
Where is this switch? I can see the emergency cord, but I've never seen this...
Therefore the return to 60 foot cars is fitting if less efficient.
Seems to me, 60 foot cars are more efficient than 75-footers. Results in more doors/train (provided you're running a full consist) for entering & exiting.
I remember wondering the same thing when I rode the NYC subway for the first time. Seems like many of those cars would be potential death traps in the event of a serious fire or accident. The CTA's own emergency-release devices were the direct result of a collision between a tanker truck and streetcar in which a large number of people were incinerated inside the streetcar, unable to escape. I shudder to think what would happen if a NYC subway train caught fire underground during the height of evening rush hour, with people unable to escape the train.
As for other transit systems, I know Boston's Green Line cars have an emergency release lever at each set of doors. The storm doors on the heavy rail cars are normally locked, but there's an emergency release lever that will unlock them and also activate the emergency brake. I also seem to recall small access panels above some of the side doors of the Bombardier 01800's, but I don't recall if they were labeled as emergency door-release devices or not.
I don't specifically remember seeing any emergency door-release devices on the London Tube, but then, since the tunnel wall is usually only six inches away from the train on each side, being able to open the side doors would be sort of a moot point in most cases. God forbid there's a serious fire or terrorist bombing down there someday.
I guess what was most appalling about this situation was not the fact that the fire occurred -- I mean, shit happens even on the best transit systems -- but the utter lack of information or direction from CTA personel. And by "information or directions," I mean more than just a pre-recorded announcement apologizing for the delay. That may be fine for a short delay while waiting for a signal to change, but 45 minutes in a dark, crowded train with no air circulation calls for more of a response. In situations like that, the CTA shouldn't be so shocked that passengers decided to take matters into their own hands. Luckily there we no injuries from this whole ordeal and there was no sense of panic, but if such a situation were to occur tomorrow, the lack of direction from the train crew could lead to a far worse situation than the initial cause of the delay.
-- David
Chicago, IL
How do the emergency handles on the MBTA trains work?
Theres a ring and a long handle. A lable saids "Emergency Brake and End Door Unlock".
"Chalk up another one to the brain trust at the CTA."
Eh?! Shit happens. People get sick on trains, or a crime happens on a train, or something flammable is thrown on the tracks. Even well-maintained equipment develops problems once in a while. When a car overturns on the expressway and a commute that normally takes an hour takes more than two, somehow that doesn't result in people blaming IDOT.
"Those of us who were getting off before Loyola got off the train while grumbling a few choice phrases directed at the CTA,"
Because they were running a train express? Waah. If they DIDN'T run some trains express, someone would be complaining that the CTA was stupid, idiotic, mismanaged, etc., etc., for not taking simple measures to get things back to normal. It's human nature for people to dislike an express run that skips their station, but by definition an express has to skip SOMEBODY'S stop, and the trains aren't going to return to normal by running every Red train local as if nothing happened.
I remember that, about a decade ago, there was a period of a few years when CTA would NEVER run a train express no matter how bad the incident and no matter how much it had screwed up the schedule. It wasn't a publicized policy announced in the newspapers or with signs in the stations, but its existence was clear all the same. And when people sat on sardine-can trains making every stop after a half-hour sick passenger delay, they weren't grateful that CTA wasn't skipping their stop, they were complaining that CTA wasn't running the train express. For myself, I'm GLAD that the CTA, for whatever reason, dropped the "nothing happened, keep all trains local" policy.
Before I begin, let me say in advance, if the subject of my post is a Subtalker, I make no apologies for what I am about to say.
I rode LIRR train 2062 from Penn Station this afternoon. First stop is Hicksville - and as such, the train is usually crowded & so I opted to stand at the front window for the ride home. What a mistake. Next to me were two trai buffs. One - the 'smarter of the two' spoke at the top of his lungs, impressing all within ear-shot of his big mouth. They started with a debate about when the 4:49 to Port Jeff switches from electric to Diesel although it was plain by the smoke that they switched as soon as they cleared the portal. They then began an impromptu inspection of the battery compartment latches as we past that train. Then a debate over why we had an approach signal while the port Jeff train had 'clear'. Next a debate over the airtrain terminal followed by a non-related discussion of cable tv and neilsen ratings.
The lesser informed of the dynamic duo kept remarking how the tracks squiggled at interlocking. He also wasn't aware what the mileposts were for and referred to the old Deer Park Station as Dix Hills. Despite his dearth of knowledge - he was still capable of citing dozens of things that the LIRR management was doing wrong. As we left Deer Park, however, the 'smarter' one crossed the line. He said that while on vacation, he was going to the Ronkonkoma station and count the number of illegally parked cars and then find sites where additional spots could be created. Well, that did it. If Brentwood was not the next stop, I would have tossed my cookies.
What I can't figure out is how does the LIRR function with the poor talent they have when these two genius's have all the answers. Anyway - no point here but if they are subtalkers, HEY GUYS, GET A FU@#!N LIFE
Heh. Such behavior is what I had been alluding to in past posts. Don't get me wrong, most railfans are quite respectful of "the church" but then there are some that during my short career made me think often that the old cab doors swung both ways and could flatten a pest against the storm door if kicked hard enough. :)
I remember one early morning northbound ride with a pair of drunks up front, yammering and shouting about this and that, "he's going to overshoot! He's going to overshoot!" while I was crawling past the 6 car marker (10 cars) and a number of other loud, less than useful comments. Then began the kicking on the door, "Hey! I wanna show my buddy the cab!" ... all this crossing the 59th St interlocking with a consist full of dead motors on the uphill coming from 53rd. Good timing, bro ... words cannot describe how much I wanted to put that particular pair out of their misery.
Like I said, most train buffs are quite OK and I actually had fun with a good number of them. But there are some real morons as well. Good thing the TA didn't issue sidearms. Heh.
I agree that the vast majority of railfans and subway buffs are interesting people at the least and that's why these two made such a negative impression. All I wanted to do was get home last night - like most people on that train. I assume less than half really cared whether the battery box doors on a passing train were latched properly, BTW: The one who I referred to as the smarter of the pair is actually a frequent 'letter writer' and so as obnoxious as he can get, the crews seem to avoid any contact with him.
"Railfanning," in general, is at least a harmless hobby, something which even people with poor social skills or difficulties with peers (whatever the cause) can do. A person can pursue it as a solo activity, or find like-minded people to do it with. And you don't need to pass an IQ or sociability test to stand at the front window.
I don't know what was driving these guys, but it sounds like they certainly weren't hurting anyone. Boring the train crews, and you, to be sure, but pretty harmless otherwise.
Absolutely not hurting anyone except maybe those who wanted to shut their eyes and relax. Boring to me - not at all. I had to resist the temptation to jump in and correct the pompus ass who believed he knew everything. I suppose that it bothered me that they were obviously trying to impress others and draw them into their mental masturbation party. You know, I can see taking a trainride during your vacation. I've even gone to visit other shops on some of mine. But to plan on your vacation to count the number of illegally parked cars at Ronkonkoma Station just so you can write a letter about it seems to suggest someone with an over-inflated sense of self-importance. As for me, when I get to the station - I look for a vacant spot. If I find one, I park - if not, I look elsewhere. I could care less how many people park illegally after me as long as they don't block me in. Now if this guy wants to do something really useful, he should go to the Smithhaven mall and monitor the handicapped parking spaces. See if all those people with permits are really handicapped. Thank god for a real life.......
You're lucky you didn't get any drool on you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I hear you.
I got infuriated once when, while visiting a sci-fi convention (not something I'll do again soon), two guys in front of me in a line were discussing the more esoteric aspects of warp drives, and each one was several orders of magnitude off of "c," the speed of light; worse than that, they were trying to figure out if a glass of water could slow it down. I admit to losing patience with a conversation I had no business in, and yours truly did butt in and say, "Gentlemen, the speed of light, or the constant "c," is approx. 186,200 miles per second, and does not vary with the materials light passes through.
So you see, your behavior was better and more restrained than mine.
Man, that was hilarious. I just feel bad that you actually had to PAY for that ride.
I get it sometimes up front myself but I'm usually able to block it out (practice). It's funny how many "railfans" have absolutely no clue.
As we left Deer Park, however, the 'smarter' one crossed the line. He said that while on vacation, he was going to the Ronkonkoma station and count the number of illegally parked cars and then find sites where additional spots could be created.
Create more parking spots at Ronkonkoma???? That's gotta be the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard!
What's wrong with more parking? Parking is a KEY part of the Park & Ride concept.
I don't know if Peter was being serious or a bit ironic, On the face of it, more spaces would seem like a good idea. Hell, they can put up a 10 story parkin garage and provide 3,000 new spots if the want to. Again you have the self-proclaimed experts who solve one problem and create two others. At deer Park, they had a similar situation. Too many illegally parked cars. So they opened some of the areas adjacent to the woods for additional parking. Only trouble is - Deer Park Station only has access from One street. Come 5 PM, it can take a half hour to get out of the parking area. The few times I've been to Ronkonkoma, it seems that Access from the main lot on the south side is also very limited. The headache of traffic and polution would only be made worse if more parking would be made available without better access.
Now as for this guy's other observations, I think it would be wonderful if he would stand over by Harold Tower and inspect every C-3 car for loose battery box latches on every passing train.
What's wrong with more parking? Parking is a KEY part of the Park & Ride concept.
Because adding more parking at Ronkonkoma will simply encourage more overcrowding on what is already an obscenely overcrowded line. Riders should be encouraged to use the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines, which have plenty of available capacity.
AMEN - Peter. I suppose we're on the same side of the issue albiet for slightly different reasons.
I just began to go through a box of treasures that i received as a gift from a friend of a friend. In it are more than 25 MINT books about Subways, Commuter rails and ELs. Some are old (1940s) and some are more recent. Several Fischler books too. Some of the more intriguing titles are "Gotham Turnstiles", "They Moved Millions", Brooklyn Waterfront railways", Brooklyn Trolleys", "Third Avenue railway System", and "Westchester's Forgotten Railway".
Also included was a certificate from the NYCT issued to those who rode the last train on the Jamaica Elevated. He also included dozens of very old news clippings too. I can see many many weeks of reading ahead & ofcourse I'll pass along any info that might be of interest. Friends are betting that some of these will wind up on E-bay. I tend to doubt it.
Well Steve, I can attest that all of the titles you have mentioned are well worth keeping, as I have all of them in my personal library. Enjoy!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, whenever (if) you become interested in parting with anything, please e-mail me. I'd be willing to pay good $$$.
The American Pig and I were conferring over restarting the SubTalk live chats again. We have made another poll and ask that you take it. Provided we get enough responses, further info will be posted.
NOTE: SubTalk Live is open for bus disscussions as well. BusTalkers will be invited.
Click here to take the poll!
Sorry I couldn't place the poll directly into the post. It is a restriction of www.freetools.com.
Thanks, in advance.
REMEMBER: The live chats can only resume with your input. Even if you may not attend on a regular basis, please take the survey!
For whatever it's worth, Oren, it's not registering any of the NO votes... figured I'd chime in, not that I'm opposed in any way to having the chats, but simply that I'm highly unlikely to participate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does seem to be registering the NO votes, but us NO voters are in the minority. I echo Anon_e_mouse by saying not that I'm opposed in any way to having the chats, but simply that I'm highly unlikely to participate.
That isn't the question. The question is if you are or are not averse to holding chats again. Question 5 asks whether you would attend said chats.
I find it fascinating that the IRT Shuttle/7th Ave right-of-way passes under and through the old Times Building as opposed to following under the intersection of 42nd Street and Broadway. Are there other examples of non-standard R.O.W.'s i.e., under buildings? I'd be most grateful if someone who knows would list them here on SubTalk. I suspect that where the shuttle's trackways merge into the IRT Lex line might be under a building.
Thanks folks!
P.S. This is my fist time on SubTalk.
The Tunnel Rat
I posed this question about a year ago. The N/R line goes under No. 1 Broadway between Rector and Whitehall Streets, the 4/5/6 slices under the Grand Hyatt at Grand Central, and the 1/9 and PATH go beneath the World Trade Center complex, though in those cases the subway was there way before the complex eliminated the street pattern.
Also, given the 75-foot turning radius required for the cars, it's pretty likely the IND "cuts corners" for the flying junctions at 53rd Street on Sixth and Eighth Aves. Also, any IND station that has pillars below a building reportedly has those pillars encased in ceramic tiles for fire safety. I think that includes parts of York St. on the F and Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C/G in Brooklyn.
Also at Jay Street on the A/C/F there are columns in ceramic tile.
Encasing columns in concrete when its under buildings is used by ALL divisions. It's part of the NYC fire code and predates 1904.
I believe it is required when certain type of steel is used.
Arti
It seems like the B/D/Q/M/N/R tunnels must go under the Metrotech building just south of DeKalb--the turn coming into the station from the south is too sharp to be all the way back at the intersection of Flatbush and Fulton.
Boston has a few interesting situations like this.
The most significant is the Old State House. This 17th century buillding lies directly above the Blue Line tunnel and a labyrinth of passageways connecting the Blue and Orange Lines. The main entrance to State Station occupies half of the basement, while the Blue Line platforms lie just east of the building and the northbound Orange Line platform lies just to the west. The preservation of this building in 1905 was an early effort to retain the historic while adapting to progress.
Another interesting situation occurs just east of Charles Station on the Red Line where the line goes underground. Grades in the area cause the portal to be above the local grade, so the train goes underground directly from an elevated structure. As it does so, it passes under a house facing a street on the hill. "The only home in Boston with a subway in the basement". From here to Park Street Station, the Red Line passes beneath some of Boston's most expensive real estate, where the Cabots, Pinckneys, Saltonstalls and Lowells regularly complain about the vibrations from the trains deep below. Finally the line passes below the present State House, though there is no shared space in the building.
No longer extant is the Haymarket Relief Station, a clinic once located on the north edge of Haymarket Square. This building ("Quiet! Hospital Zone") predated both the Green and Orange Lines and ended up with SIX tracks underneath, plus a crossover, all in the middle of a curve. All six tracks exited by way of two sets of portals just north of the building. so the depth at that location was minimal. The clinic remained in operation through both periods of construction. It was torn down in the 1950s though most of the site remains vacant and visible today. The former Orange Line portals are now used by a temporary Green Line alignment while that line's subway is extended northward.
The south end of the Orange Line's Washington Street Tunnel also underpinned the buildings on the east side of Washington St. and the south side of Kneeland St. It came to the surface at the rear of these and rose to elevated level on a ramp with a clerestory roof over it. Today the relocated line swings to the west and passes diagonally under the Floating Hospital Building of New England Medical Center where the station of that name lies. The hospital's main building lies atop the original tunnel and portal.
Between Porter and Davis Squares the Red Line also passes under a residential neighborhood in a tunnel constructed in the 1970s.
Finally there is the building at the corner of Harrison Av. and Beach St. This relic has a ground floor which extends right up to the corner but the upper floors follow an arc well back from the street. This was the point where the Atlantic Avenue Elevated turned from Harrison Av. onto Beach St., cutting over the corner lot to increase the radius of the curve. The lower floor contained the entry to Beach Street Station, along with some businesses. The el was torn down in 1942, but the building remains in 2001, one of the few surviving relics of Boston's waterfront el.
Engineers tried to avoid going underneath structures (especially existing structures) wherever possible, both because of the expense and danger of underpining and vibration issues, among others.
For example both 6th and 7th Avenues were extended south when subways were built and their buildings simply demolished. Killed two birds with one stone, so to speak.
But it's impossible to always avoid going under structures, or you'd have to have a lot of trolley-car-like tight curves on the system.
Sometimes structures were built over an existing line whre they didn't exist before. Example, the commercial building on the south side of Church Avenue (D, Q), whose architecture matches the former appearance of the station house on the north side.
Ever tried the library on Steinway St. and Broadway? Every G/R that turns from Broadway to Steinway or vice versa goes right under the library. Kinda hard to enforce the "shhhhhh" if every 4-5 minutes a loud rumbling is heard underneath. I never heard that library quiet.
=)
Greetings, folks! I'm Gerald Davis, here to thank the PTB for all the wonderful NY subway pics that I've been enjoying since going online 6 years ago. I started to join this board way back when. I even drafted a long post to start with, then decided to think again about devoting myself to another discussion board. So I just pop in to grab pix for my desktop.
Part of why I'm so grateful for this site is that it helped inspire my novel that I will now shamelessly promote.
It's called The Soul Trains.
It's a supernatural thriller about a brotha who wakes up dead in a sealed subway system, able to ride trains, unable to exit. He and everyone else who dies. They have to resolve their kharmas, you see. One way or the other. Heaven or Hell the ultimate destinations.
It can be browsed at IUniverse.com, the online print-on-demand publisher I used. It can be purchased ($24.95) at the major online book outlets.
The thing about this site that helped inspire was, of course, the pix. I have a collection I use for wallpaper & slideshow. I was just sitting there looking at them, imagining I was inside the pic (ala that old 'Night Gallery' episode) unable to get out; or inside a real station, or system, where no one can get out because it's a purgatory where they have to resolve their issues from life.
Now that I write all this, I realize to my discredit that I should have included an acknowlegement to this site. I'd considered it at one point, but it turned out that I never used any info from here. It was just the pix that made a light bulb go off.
Anyway fellas, thanks for this site! And, of course, thanks to Mr. Pirmann et al for sharing all their great photos!
Welcome to the group
(nt) means no text. I tried to post this with my mssg as the title, but this system doesn't do that.
anyway, thanks
Reminds me of the movie "Jacob's Ladder." There's a scene in that with Tim Robbins getting off the subway and having trouble getting out of the closed lower level Bergen Street stop. He doesn't stay stuck in the system, but it turns out, he's dead, and the "people" he interacts with, including his "girlfriend," are actually Old Scratch's minions vying for his soul. I thought it was a really good flick, and I saw it before my railfanness came into full-bloom. Loved watching it later for subway content.
The movie is noted in the bibliography section of this site.
Your story sounds interesting, though. I'm sure we have all had "subway dreams" about being stuck in the system, but for us, are they really nightmares? :O)
When I visited the Bay Area, my feeling was it is the second or third best city in the U.S. for transit fans, tied with or slightly ahead of Philadelphia. I cite this with respect to the sheer variety of public transportation in the city: subway, light rail, trackless trolleys, comuter heavy rail, fossil-fuel bus, cable car, pristine PCCs and other vintage trolleys...
On the other hand, I have friends who live in San Francisco proper and still drive to work. They are a married couple who both work in white-collar, office jobs. I questioned them about their (lack of) use of public transport, and they responded that Muni just wasn't convenient. Huh? Oh well, I guess it's hard to crack that typically California attitude that transit is for the poor.
Welcome to the board. You will never be bored here, that's for sure.
--Keystone Pete
Ah, yes, "Jacob's Ladder!"
You might say it was also an, er ah, "inspiration." Or you might say I completely ripped it off! That scene is one of my all-time favorite movie sequences ever!
I dug it so much that I used it in my story, this time from the perspective of a rider inside the ghoul train. My protagonist finds himself on an Express to Hell, and the ghouls suddenly become aware of a bewildered man out on the tracks. Protagonist joins them at a window and sees the man looking up at them as the train passes.
================
Interesting observation about SF's variety of transit. I can't compare it to other cities, but you're right, just about every mode in operation (except monorail) is running in SF.
I agree, your married couple friends are nitwits! No WAAY I'd drive to downtown in SF if I lived in the city. Or lived out of the city. No matter where they live, they are at worst a short drive away from some transit line. They could buy a monthly pass for what it takes to park for two days.
I wouldn't agree that it's a "California" anti-transit attitude. I'd say it's a basic middle-class American attitude. Aren't people just as auto-oriented in, oh, D.C., Atlanta, or Buffalo? Even where a community is urbanized enough to make public transit a mega-funded priority, most of the population doesn't use it.
I have a cousin who was raised in the Bronx, then in her early 30s moved to LA, then to Miami. Now she's in upstate NY. She correctly observed that all places have a general similarity in lifestyle, once you get out of the urban areas. Suburbs, single-family homes, cars.
It was pretty cool. Except for the puke on a seat. I guess that can happen anywhere, tho.
I live in the SF Bay Area. Been riding BART since it started in the early 70s. BART then was sleek and new and modern and computerized. Clean and relatively quiet. Not at all the way I remembered the NY trains, which I sorrowfully left behind when my family moved from Bed-Stuy to Calif in '65.
BART now is a little rougher. Still sleek, but timeworn. Cars are noisier, no longer new, sometimes downright shabby-looking. But it works (which it didn't so well at first), and, with security cams in each car and platform, you feel safer, if you're the unsafe-feeling type.
It was with considerable skepticism that I considered the idea of LA having a subway. All spread out and suburbanized, it would cost a fortune and just couldn't be that effective. Well, it did cost a fortune, and it only has 16 stations. Everyone dubbed it the subway to nowhere.
But Amtrak's Union station is the subway's (creatively called "Metro") terminus. So I spend a day on AMTRAK and used the subway & bus system to get from my downtown hotel room to UCLA for a conference.
The verdict? Hey, it works. 6 am to sometime after midnight, 7 days. At 7:45 am on a saturday, most seats in the 4-car trains were filled. They were at 10 pm the previous night too. Stations clean. Somewhat under-lit tho. the whole expericence was absolutely non-eventful, which, I suppose is as good a mark of success as any for a transit system.
And to think they tore up the Pacific Electric empire just to start over again at hundreds of times the cost.
>>> used the subway & bus system to get from my downtown hotel room to UCLA for
a conference. <<<
From downtown to UCLA there would be very little subway and a lot of buses. Did you take the Wilshire Rapid Bus? If so you got to see the route that the subway should have taken from downtown to Westwood (passing through Century City).
>>> At 7:45 am on a Saturday, most seats in the 4-car trains were filled. They were at 10 pm the previous night too. <<<
The full trains were probably due to the long headway between trains. I am surprised that there were so many riders at 10:00 pm. My own observations were that the trains and stations in the downtown area (and the sidewalks above them) were virtually deserted after 7:00 pm.
Tom
"The full trains were probably due to the long headway between trains. I am surprised that there were so many riders at 10:00
pm. My own observations were that the trains and stations in the downtown area (and the sidewalks above them) were virtually
deserted after 7:00 pm."
The only place downtown which stays busy at night is the Men's Central Jail...
I took the train to the Hollywood/Highland station. It gets me further west, but might have taken as much time as the bus connection would've from Westwood. Then I took a #2 local bus, about a 15-min wait and 27-min ride. In terms of distance, the train covered about half. However, buses use a straighter line from downtown to UCLA, but more time. So, definitely, the train isn't the most efficient mode. Of course, a car could do the whole thing in 10 minutes.
When I mapped this out on LA's metro website, I did check an alt. route from the Wilshire/Western station. there was no option for a Wilshire Rapid bus. Maybe it doesn't run on Sats.
When you say "long" headways, what do you mean? I don't think I waited more than 15 minutes at any time. For night and weekend use, that's about what I expected. But their info never did say just HOW far apart the trains are, weekend or not.
BART runs 20-min headways nights and Suns. 15, I think, on Sats. What are the NY off-peak headways?
To view photo, see eBay Item # 1140972804
I saw a very interesting O Gauge boxcar at the York train meet last week.
It was a custom painted (silkscreened) 40' O gauge boxcar in a shade of tuscan red. It was lettered New York City Transit System (appeared to be Railroad Roman lettering), with BMT reporting letters, and a three digit number. It showed a car assignment of "Return to Coney Island, New York". All of this was printed to the left of the sliding side door.
To the right of the door was a type of herald reading "BMT Lines", in a print vaguely similar to the old BMT Lines signs.
The graphics reminded me of the style of the 1940's. It was nicely done, and was a very professional looking job. While the BMT most likely never had any railroad boxcars, this sure would be a conversation piece in any freight train.
I took two pictures of it, but I just started a new roll of film so it will be awhile before I will know if they turned out.
Karl, as you know the only part of the transit system that hauled boxcars was the South Brooklyn Railway. But even they used 'hand-me-down' equipment from the mainlines. I don't recall them having boxcars with their (or their parent company's) livery.
What you saw was someone's custom-paint job of wishful thinking.
BTW, I got a nice run down the line with 1227 on Saturday. And I did take her through the curve at a nice clip (also I nearly got injured on her later in the day...more details on that some other time).
BMTman
Looking at classic Toy Trains mag. there are quite a few special issue cars that never existed in real life. Guess that's a tiny piece of the fun of being a model rail.
I took a battered Flyer hopper and made it a NYC Transit System hopper, they do exist but not with the lettering job I did; or at least they did exist, saw them in 36 st yard.[years ago] Just the fun of having it. Wonder if having NYC Transit system on the same car as BMT reporting marks was ever a fact? Well, somebody liked it.
Sorry you had a boo-bo on 1227!
Karl, you didn't tell me about that one. Was it for sale or was it just on display? I'd be happy to make an excuses for a piece like that on my layout.
The most recent Hagstrom and previous maps show a connection allowing trains going westbound on the lower Montauk line to go and connect to the eastbound mainline at Sunnyside yard east of 49th Av (it's only called HP east of the Dutch Kills!) and the Penn portals. Reverse the direction of the connection to the mainline, and one has a new line to Penn Station (with third rail installed of course).
Does this connection really exist?
And was 39th Street once called Harold Avenue?
Yes, you can see that connection coming down onto the mainline on two large ramps as you approach the Penn Tunnels.
Perhaps when East Side Access moves further along this could be useful (to get trains to Penn or to GCT).
Who can say SubTalk isn't timely?
Less than 2 hours ago I looked out the window of my morning train and noticed those ramps for the first time -- actually, I've probably seen them a thousand times, but never thought about what they connected to until this morning.
Log on to SubTalk -- question answered.
Thanks,
CG
That connection is a freight line LIRR North Yard at Sunnyside. It wouldn't be good for a tunnel connection because it is elevated (due to a draw bridge) at the point where it needs to be going under ground. In my F interlocking diagram one can see that there are two parts to his connection. The main 2-track freight line flys over the whole of F interlocking and down into North Yard. There is a single track ramp that descends eastbound into F interlocking. The ramp passes directly over the E/B portals. The line is labeled as LIAR Montauk Branch.
I think they should use it to start up some sort of Loop Service as NYC seems to have a definite lack of loops these days.
I have a pic of the ramp right here:
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LIAR_9789.jpg
BTW according to my PRR Interlocking Diagram it is still called Harold Ave. and I think the PRR knows better than some city streets department.
Please refer to the Boeing press release below:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2001/q2/news_release_010501a.html
"Stage II" jets (727's, older DC-9's and others with low-bypass turbofans or annular turbojet engines) are being replaced at LaGuardia with high-bypass engine's jets, some of which already exceed Stage III noise standards and meet proposed Stage IV.
This does nothing for congestion, but it will reduce fuel consumption per passenger and reduce noise levels dramatically. I've been right under the runway pattern at an airport and had a 727 and a 767 take off overhead - I could have a normal conversation with someone in the secnd case. Given a little offset and distance, the impact is even less. This is good news.
"high-bypass engine's jets,"
make that "high-bypass engined jets."
Remember I posted about what streets the subway lines run under. I have a correction:
What I said:
The B/D lines run from St. Nicholas Avenue, cut under street, end up under Douglass Blvd for the station, then turn away to the Bronx.
What is true:
The B/D lines turn onto St. Nicholas Place, then make a diagonal under the Polo grounds towers so that the north end of the station has an exit to Douglass Blvd north of 155th (about where 157 or so would be). The line then curves to end up under 161st in the Bronx.
BTW, if anybody knows. Which is the original Harlem Lane, Convent Avenue or St. Nicholas?
I realize that my original subject could have been misconstrued to mean that subway trains are running in the street like trolleys.
Monday afternoon in Secaucus a 91 year old man drove through crossing gates.
Tuesday Jersey Journal story
What, it's been almost an hour and nobody's showed up yet to bash on the victim? I'm impressed! I'd have thought that by now someone would have trotted out the old standbys like "mandatory testing every 6 months for anyone over 50", "he deserved what he got for being so stupid", and so forth.
I saw the helicopter camera view of the incident last night. The train was already gone and the car was sitting on the tracks. It would have been more than a miracle had he survived.
A Conrail Shared Assets freight train did NOT set a dozen brush fires along 2 miles of track on the Bordentown-Hamilton ROW, according to a Conrail spokesman. One of the fires was under the train.
Trenton Times story
Just testing...
Just so you know what's going on.
I configured the database for the *Talks to be separate from that from the rest of the site so that the load on *Talk doesn't impact retrieval of captions and other info stored in the database. But in order to do this I had to convert the password processing script to use DBI instead of the old Msql.pm perl module. So that's what was going on. Essentially now there are two database engines serving the site instead of just one.
Thanks for the info, as well as your continuing work on the site. I've already noticed a huge improvement in the performance of the SubTalk script.
-- David
Chicago, IL
At Nostrand Ave. on the Fulton St IND line the express tracks are on the upper level and the locals on the lower.WHY IS THAT?????????
Because the express' exuberance and longing for sunshine eventually led it to burrow toward the surface, away from its brother the local?
:0)
LOL!!!! I needed the laugh! You have some imagination. Wonder how the local feels since it doesn't get any sunshine at all.
I'm going to guess that it was was a provision for the IND Second System. In general, whenever IND lines do weird things like that, Second System provision is a good bet.
:-) Andrew
I posted an answer earlier but will do so again. The second level, according to Joe Cunningham, was built as a provision for a future extension. Our information on the site and elsewhere agrees with Joe, however- all the info we have on IND Second System does not show a line at this station other than the current line.
A poster asked about the Utica Line-- this was is the plans for IND II. The IND is full of bellmouths and "interesting" features which were for future projects (some of which were not even on the drawing board.)
Check out E-Bay item #1140470269. This has got to be of the poorest taste since they listed Elian Gonzalez's life boat.
Check out E-Bay item #1140470269. This has got to be of the poorest taste since they listed Elian Gonzalez's life boat.
EBay says that that the item was deleted but doesn't say what it was. So, to satisfy my curiosity ...
It was a piece if Amadu Diallo's door in the vestibule, where he was shot by Bronx TRACON
The asking price was $41,000 dollars.
In the 1990s, the R40M,R42,R44 & R46 went through an overhaul.The R40M and the R42s recieved doors with higher windows instead of the deeper windows they originally had.The R44 and R46 recieved computerized Luminator destination signs.The only thing that's missing is the dark blue band that went around the cars below the windows.Why didn't the MTA keep these bands on these cars??? The Metro-North and LIRR still have theirs.
Only a minority of LIRR M1s and M3s have the blue stripe, unfortunately. All Metro-North trains do. I think that they look a hell of a lot better with the stripe. That goes for the R44s and R46s too. The loss of the stripe was bad enough. The loss of the rollsigns was worse! Yech! Those awful LCD's!
It's not as bad, stylistically, on the R40 and R42 without thew stripe. At least they have the corrugations to break it up, and they're not as huge and faceless as the post-GOH R44 or R46.
(Just ranting here. I trust that all of these trains were mechanically improved by the GOH.)
:-) Andrew
Looking at the end of the LIRR MUs, you would expect to see a yellow stripe on the side. It also doesn't make much sense that the NH MNRR cars have a red stipe, but both the Harlem and Hudson lines share a blue stripe. One of these should be green.
The red stripe on the New Haven cars was a carry over from the old color scheme of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford. The cars had red on the sides; after 1954 the locomotives had orange, white, and black. (Metro North used to have an FL-9 painted in true New Haven colors, but I think it has been scrapped.)
Because the New Haven cars have pantographs, they are basically for use only on that line. Hudson and Harlem cars are interchangeable. And, the green for the Hudson line came well after the cars with the blue stripes were purchased.
I used to see that FL-9 on the Waterbury trains while waiting for my GCT-bound MU at Bridgeport. It would stop, and I would stare into the giant loco's innards, which were well-lit. I remember it was a rather noisy machine. Sorry to hear it's not in use anymore. Know what they're using now? I guess they still have the (comet?) coaches, each with its individual name on the side...
I feel that the R40M-R42 were raped. The large door windows, both on the side and storm doors, gave them a nice, sleek look. The huge full-glass route sign in the front was also pretty cool, and the blue stripe just accented the overall appearance. Interior shades of light blue were also quite cheerful. Unfortunately, none of this is from first-hand memory; I am relying on photos of these cars in their former glory.
Also I always wondered - did the R40M-R42 have "blinking" lights when crossing 3rd rail gaps before GOH?
The R-40M did, the R-42 didn't. I agree with you, these cars looked much better in the original scheme.
The graffiti scourge of the 1970s and early 1980s is probably why the MTA opted not to keep the blue paint, the same way they ditched the blue doors on the R-32s -- why paint something that doesn't need painting, if it's going to fade and/or wash off in the car cleaner?
The silver paint was likely chosen for the non-stainless steel band on the R-44s so they would look more like their R-46 and R-68 cousins.
Since the graffiti problem never got as out of control on the LIRR as it did on the subway, those in charge over there apparently decided it was OK to keep the original color scheme.
We all know that service on the CTA really stinks sometimes, but this time it literally stinks.
Article in today's Sun-Times
But it probably doesn't stink nearly as much as the dog that was fried on the third rail last month on the Orange Line. And that was even before a T/O was ordered to drive over the unfortunate dog by a supervisor.
"L" train ordered to drive over dog by supervisor on www.Chicago-L.org
Have a nice day!
-- David
Chicago, IL
The cards according to the article must have smelled like a restroom after it has been cleaned with a too strong mixture of hot water and ammonia.
The dog incident sounds like it was rather cruel. They could have at least picked up the dog from the tracks rather than running over it. If it had died on the way to the next station or on the way to the animal hospital at least it wouldn't have had an inhumane demise.
BMTJeff
(Thanks to revised zoning rules advanced Tuesday by a City Council committee, developers who adopt landmark buildings or underwrite improvements to nearby transit stations or the city's underground pedway would also earn so-called "density" bonuses that give them the right to build bigger and taller buildings.)
Chicago's got an underground pedway too? Geez, the Windy City is building stuff we just talk about.
Yes, there is actually a fairly extensive Pedway system below the streets of downtown Chicago. The casual visitor to Chicago would hardly know it's down there because, well, it's underground. There are a few signs here and there, but overall it's not very well marked. The Pedway is most useful for savvy commuters and downtown workers who have taken the time to explore it. Some parts of it are rather dirty and tend to attract skells and panhandlers, but overall it's relatively clean and safe.
The Pedway connects major downtown landmarks such as City Hall, Randolph Street Station (Metra, South Shore), Marshall Field's, Carson Pirie Scott, the Daley Center, First National Plaza, the State of Illinois Center, Grant Park, the Red and Blue Line subways, and several hotels and office buildings. The Pedway system comes in especially handy on days with crappy weather; it's possible to walk from Randolph Street Station all the way over to City Hall without going outside or waiting for a crosswalk signal.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm not surprised that Chicago has a pedway system. It managed to build a mini-RR under every street.
When was this pedway built?
I'm not very familiar with the history of the Pedway, but it seems to have buit piecemeal over a number of years. The section that goes through the Daley Center basement dates back to the late 1960's, which was when the Daley Center was built, and the connection to Randolph Street Station seems to have been around for quite some time as well. Some parts are much newer, and in other parts, it's hard to tell if a section is actually brand-new or whether it's an older section that had recently been renovated.
Maybe some of the other Chicago history buffs could fill in some more information.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I thought it was nothing more than access to underground parking. I have enought trouble remembering how to find Randolph Street stion he once a year I go there, especially on a weekend.
BTW, does the South Shore honor the $5 weekend pass, or only to Hegewisch ?
BTW, does the South Shore honor the $5 weekend pass, or only to Hegewisch?
No, the weekend pass is valid on all Metra trains except the South Shore (which technically isn't even part of Metra, although Metra provides some funding for the line).
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's kinda like the system of tunnels under Rockefeller Center. I could walk from 6th Avenue & 47th Street to 53rd Street or 5th Avenue without having to wait for a traffic light or battling other cars.
But the Rockefeller Center system is obviously much smaller. And it only runs under 6th Avenue above the subway or under the center on either side of the rink to 5th Avenue.
If someone lives in Crystal City (in one of the buildings that connects to one of the tunnels there) and works in Union Station, he could virtually leave home without needing to take an umbrella.
I don't think Carsons actually has an entrance to the Pedway. Also, some portions of the system are actually above ground, like the walkways through the Illinois Center (northward and eastward of the Randolph Street Station.)
I don't think Carsons actually has an entrance to the Pedway.
It does, but the entrance is not in use. The doors are locked and the windows covered up, but the entrance is still there. IIRC, it's at the south mezzanine of the Washington stop.
Also, some portions of the system are actually above ground, like the walkways through the Illinois Center (northward and eastward of the Randolph Street Station.)
True, although "above ground" is a confusing concept in the Illinois Center. All the streets in that area are double-deck (and sometimes even triple-deck!), with the upper street level, and hence, the apparent ground level, a couple dozen feet above the true ground level. Since there are rarely any windows in the Pedway, it still has very much of an underground feel to it even though you're actually 3-4 floors above ground.
Other areas of the Pedway that are truly above ground involve a few skywalk connections, particularly in the North Loop area adjacent to the Leo Burnett building, and the skywalk connecting the First National Bank building with an annex across Madison Street.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Did the supervisor get fired for issuing that order? And BTW, that would be one order I would gladly DISOBEY, even if I got fired, not only I would sue, but I would get the entire press in the courtroom and mention the supervisor's name.
They reported no service between Lindenwold & "Hadden Township"-maybe they meant "Haddonfield" , due to small brush fires near the tracks.
This was reported around 5 PM.
Chuck Greene
No, Westmont = Haddon Twp.
I wonder where the fires were exactly and what caused them? Probably kids being let out of school.
Thanks, Mike. I had that all wrong.
Chuck Greene
The poll closes Thursday nite at 9 PM. Take the SubTalk Live Survey!
Thanks for the responses re my first-ever post on SubTalk. I have also wondered if alternative access to the system exists other than the conventional means--stations, portals, emergency entrances from the street. For example, does access exist from adjacent basements/sublevels of buildings? Please post answers here at SubTalk or e-mail me.
I don't know why I am fascinated with such esoterica in an already esoteric hobby/passtime. All I know is that I am and so are others like yourselves. The more esoteric, the more interesting is the subject. SubFan Nerds of the world UNITE!
Oops,sorry.
Appropriately humble,
Tunnel Rat
There are at least a couple of entrances into the system that don't fit the usual mold. Perhaps the most notable of these is the entrance, long closed, from the Belmont Hotel into the Times Square station on the IRT. The other one I've heard about is from the basement of 370 Jay Street in Brooklyn used by the money train. I've heard rumors of an entrance or two into the tunnels from basements directly adjacent to the IND but I've never seen them so I cannot confirm their existence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grand Central has a few nonconventional entrances through buildings that aren't marked as such. A few buildings in the financial district do have entrances to the 4-5 and J-M-Z in their basements. B-D-F-Q has some in midtown that are in basements.
IIRC, you can get into the downtown Astor Place station from the K-Mart store.
That is correct. The store site used to be a Wanamaker's Department Store.
Ah, the site of the famous Wanamaker Washout of 1956.
And you can get into Penn Station from the Midtown K-Mart in 1 Penn Plaza. And from the rest of One Penn Plaza.
Yes, and at one time, the same station was accessible from Clinton Hall (more recently Alexander Hamilton Hall, and I don't know what it's name is now), the building across 8 St from K-mart. See the article on the bricked-over door at Forgetten-NY.
Somebody record several Acela Express movies and put them on this site. You can go there and enjoy!
Chaohwa
Hey that's cool!
Makes me remember a question I've been meaning to ask if/when I ever signed on here. Are there any videotapes of NY (or other) train footage?
Lots. They're listed elsewhere on this site; current footage from Mark Feinman and Salaamallah is available, as well as historical footage from several commercial producers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Trains Magazine online:
"Seven cars of the Ringling Bros. Barnum & Bailey Circus train derailed at slow speed in Worcester, Mass., on Tuesday. The train, bound for Providence, R.I., had just been interchanged from CSX to regional Providence & Worcester when the derailment occurred around 4 a.m. None of the 230 passengers and 40 animals was injured, the Associated Press reported."
This week's Westchester Weekly paper has an article that talks about the Yonkers Kawasaki plant and its record of worker abuse.
The story can be found at the following url:
http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/kawasaki.html
Kawasaki, like every other major company doing business in the USA, is subject to the provisions of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. If there were a pattern of racial bigotry by the management there, I'm quite sure that there would have been numerous Civil Rights cases there. Hence, the MTA would likely not have done business with Kawasaki.
I've worked for Nihonjin companies - Matsushita, SONY, JVC America and others - and the descriptions at Kawasaki are very much in keeping with how it was at the others. Bear in mind that Japanese culture is VERY different from ours and that Americans are considered the LAZIEST gaigin on the face of the earth (gaigin = "foreign devils") ... Japan's culture is EXTREMELY racist towards outsiders and Nissei who have left the home islands are forever tainted by exposure to gaigin.
Women are considered property and I could go on and on and on. I would tend to believe the complaints, it's quite normal behavior inside a lot of companies that I've worked for as well. ESPECIALLY the union thing ... if unions have tried to organize the floor, then you can color Kawasaki *gone* ... only thing worse than American minority group members in the eyes of the Nihonjin are UNION American minority group members ... do understand that you and I are members of an extremely inferior race as far as the Japanese go ... way low on the food chain in their eyes. Insects are more revered.
That's kind of racist?
Can't recall that from my experience, but of course factories are foreign to me.
Sorry it sounds that way ... having spent most of my life in electronics, I've worked for a lot of Japanese companies and that IS the corporate culture. I've also got many friends, mostly kids of "salarymen" who came over here to get AWAY from the mentality. But I'm not at all surprised by the tales out of Yonkers - seen it and been in the middle of it myself. This is also the reason for my own personal revulsion for "TQM" ... saw it on the factory floors in Long Island City and the state too.
But the Japanese have a very low opinion of Americans ... I'm sure others here will chide in as well. But sorry it comes off that way.
Well, in this day and age if you not part of the group you critisize, you can't do that :-)
I did read the thread about TQM.Can't comment as I've never even worked for a company with more than 10 employees (my current consulting business aside.)
I just have a different experience re: Japaniese, and I don't see what you see, but again I've never had a business relationship with them.
Arti
I guess it's a bit different for me, I've spent time on the Akihabara, Yokohama, Hiroshima and Kobe. The folks out in the countryside are much like us. However, "salaryman" is a completely different animal and culturally the Japanese are still a very closed society. Compare that with the Koreans who, like us, know when something is "good enough." Sorry, I could never get into that wearing of shame ribbons and so forth. ("I have shamed the company!") But I understand how my words could be taken as bordering on racism and that's not my intent. I've been heavily exposed to the culture and lived within it during my worklife. It's amazingly similar in each company I've worked for and to the American sensibilities of what a jobsite should be like, Kawasaki is stunningly *normal* for the complaints raised. I've seen it routinely, with not one exception, over there and over here.
Many of the Japanese folks I know that live here (and have no intention of returning to the homeland) have pretty much agreed with me about the "anthill" mentality there and live here because of it. But to the Japanese, business *is* war and no prisoners will be taken. I've also done the retreat to Mount Fujiyama where the koretsu divvy up their market for the coming year. "Competition" is an amusing little reality during retreat. It wouldn't pass antitrust muster here at all.
Getting back to Kawasaki though, I'm sure that the problems their cars have been having reflect an unhappy work force with less than a "commitment to excellence". (gack! phrases come easy, folks who like their job actually produce quality) That they're hiring QA people now seems to bear that out. I remember asking back in 1968 one of the suits up in the control room why there were television cameras in the urinals ... the answer, "You Americans steal. We want to make sure you're not taking the toilet paper home." Found microphones in our workbenches too. "You Americans like your big unions - we hear you talking about unsatisfactory working conditions." So yeah, I've seen places that are similar to what the Kawasaki folks are complaining about and the corporate attitude that comes with it.
My one favorite all time line though came at JVC America, "Schematic? You want to see schematic? NOBODY see schematic. You Americans steal our designs. No schematic." Now try fixing a stereo when you can't identify which parts need changing. :)
I've never dealt with the Japanese on a professional level, but have you EVER tried to get information on the electronic components in your stereo? For that matter, have you ever tried to BUY one of those chips?
I had a Sony clock radio that I wanted to look up the internals on. Low and behold, according to Sony's web page, the chip in there that said "Sony" on it....didn't exist.
The other thing I can never get over is how all Japanese motorcycles look alike. If you pained all the GSX-Rs, Ninjas, etc black, with no labeling on them, you'd never be able to tell the difference between them.
I've always had mixed feelings about them. But then, I'd imagine they have mixed feelings about US too.
Well, this certainly isn't where I wanted to go with this ... lemme rephrase it this way - NYS already has a Labor Department, reality says Kawasaki's going to do another GE here and split, might as well investigate the complaints and see what we've got here. My intention in what I posted is that I've seen similar circumstances with other Japanese companies and therefore the accusations should not be dismissed out of hand. It certainly can be looked at within the confines of "business as usual" and that's all I ever intended by my own comments.
That said, yes, I've seen THAT behavior too.
Your observation about the "look-alike" motorcycles is not coincidence, but rather the result of "niban te shoho" "second-hand business". Almost every successful product in Japan is quickly imitated. The concept of intellectual property rights (within Japan) does not exist. Copying is a way of doing business there. Everyone expects it. OUTSIDE Japan however, it is a very different story. Japan businesses protect their intellectual property with a determined vengeance. Your experience with SONY is typical.
I'm curious as to why anyone would want to copy a Japanese cruiser :)
Their sportbikes are fun until the motor lunches, however I've heard the frames on them suck.
But, I for the most part hate boring lookalike stuff. I'd much rather a Harley, Ducatti, or SOMETHING else that has a SOUL, as opposed to Brand J stuff. Oh yeah, and the parts availability is lousy too.
If you want a real laugh, pop the lid off any Japanese electronics some day. my Sony discman has Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Sony, and NEC guts in it. Probbably some Hitachi too.
Same thing for Ford or any car company. There are parts from all over the world in there. If you want to have some fun pop open a ordinary PC and look inside. Part from countries you never knew exsisted.
cause its cheaper to make them in other countries. in first world countries, realty, laws, workers make it hard and expensive to manufacture things. and to save money some companies do go to others to make things for them.
Yeah, just look at the moneyed "takenoko" (young urban "punks") in Shibuya. They're all riding Harleys! There are at least 5 different Harley-Davidson outlets in the Tokyo metropolitan area, and despite the astronomic prices, they can't sell them fast enough! I suppose that we "amerikajin" are "taimanagaijin" (lazy foreigners), but we know how to make a bike with "soul"!
If you want a real laugh, pop the lid off any Japanese electronics some day. my Sony discman has Panasonic, Mitsubishi,
Toshiba, Sony, and NEC guts in it. Probbably some Hitachi too.
That's what I meant with my comment about the annual retreat to Mount Fujiyama where the koretsu divvies up the market among themselves so that the entire "industry" doesn't end up competing in any way. All companies gather together and collude to fix prices and determine which company sells what. After all, in Japan, you don't compete with your brethren, the game is to win against the outsiders. Much like our own American oil companies, collusion, price fixing and anticompetitive behavior is GOOD. :)
Similar to the concord and "Concordski".
Concordski was a immation concord made by Russia. Also known as the Tupulov 144.
It wasn't really an imitation (it was different in a number of ways), and I was under the impression that it beat the concorde at least to test flight. SSTs are kinda like nukes, everyone eventually reaches more or less the same design. Ever notice how comercial aircraft all mlook the same today?
You are correct.
The TU-144's first flight was in the winter of 1968, two months ahead of Concorde. While the Russians were interested in Concorde's design and made an effort to do intelligence-gathering, the truth is that the delta design was acknowledged to be the most efficient and, if anything, Tupolev (and "Tsagi," the Central Institute of Aerodynamics and Hydrodynamics, founded by a genius engineer named Zhukovsky) came up with a aircraft that had some superior features (like the forward canard). Unfortunately, Russian engines were not quite up to the task (a problem which occurred again when the IL-86 wide-body jetliner started testing years later); the Concorde can "supercruise" at altitude,using afterburner for takeoff and acceleration, while the -144 could sustain Mach 2 only on afterburner. The -144's range was severely reduced by this, making the aircraft worthless for international routes.
I would agree with you that Japanese culture, business or otherwise, is very different from ours. As for the rest, it smacks ufortunately, of gross stereotyping. Certainly, there exists racism within the Japanese culture, just as there is racism within our own.
But, you must put that racism within the context of Japan's long history of isolationism to understand where they are "coming from".
Also, you really can't generalize. I have worked with several large Japanese concerns over the years including IHI (Ishikawajima Heavy Industries) and Kawasaki. I have not experienced the overt racism toward gaijin (which is a colloquial shortening of gaikokujin - it simply means "outside country person" - and is not derogatory in itself, although it may in certain circumstances be used that way) that you have. I have made many friends within the Japanese business world, at all levels, from the factory worker to the plant manager. As a whole, I believe the Japanese to be a sincere, hard working people with a strong sense of culture and tradition. My experience is this...if you take the time to understand their way of life and language, then you will gain a small insight into what this very different culture has to offer, and you will understand that dispite these vast differences, deep down, we are more alike than you think.
Also, many things are changing in Japanese culture today. Attitudes toward woman are changing, albeit much slower than within our society. But, still, among the younger Japanese men that I have come to know (under 40 years) I know of no one who considers a woman, be it a coworker or wife, to be property. In fact, that demure retiring appearance many Japanese wives give is just their "tatemae", or "public face". At home, where their "honne" or true self, kicks in, most are the true heads of their households and they let their "saririman" husbands know it!
OK ... I have to admit to an "ad hominim" here ... my experience with working for the karetsu was back in the 1970's and believe me, at that time, the culturals were MOST "unenlightened" ... but like I said, modern Japanese that I have met want nothing to do with that which I faced working with and living over there at the time. I'm glad to see that the "salaryman" mentality is shifting. It was long overdue.
But again, looking at the specifics of the complaints about Kawasaki Yonkers, that's PRECISELY the kind of behavior I had become used to in the workplace and saw every day. Granted, I've been out of consumer electronics for 20 years now, perhaps a few "salarymen" need to be called back home for "regrooving" ... but I also know about the Japanese honor and diligence to the task, and clearly with the described problems with the Kawasaki subway cars, something is very very wrong in Yonkers. That was my whole point and I apologize for all like coming off like some hick from upstate here ... but I've SEEN the conduct described in that story first hand ... my apologies once again if my 20 years ago rememberances are obsolete. But every bit as much as Jim Crow laws, it was real at the time.
If the japanese are doing the racism up there and the mispracticed labor, its their way at getting back at us for blowing them to smitherenes 56 years ago. THEY NEED TO GO!
How about the interment camps? did you forget about that?
dont even think of going in that direction! understand?
yeah, they did it to us and kill some americans at it. why should we feel bad. they did it first atleast when we had concentration camps for them we didn't kill em off. (i don't have anything against japanese in general, just the ones from the previous generations that are right now in power that have such repugnant thinking. THEY NEED TO GO )
yep, old people need to go. Replace them with a 22-35 year olds.
yes cause the old people are the ones who is causing bad relations with other creeds.
Interesting life lesson / Rule of the Universe:
No Married Man is King of his own house.
Anybody wanna disagree?
Not I...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it is a fact that the japanese do think lowly of everyone else. they are ethnocentric people because of their history with americans, and around the world, they are one of the most hated countries in the world. this is why their economy sucks because nobody likes to do business with them and if they do business worldwide, civilians in those countries will meagerly buy or never buy their products because of their attitude towards the rest of the world. you think they do good business in the U.S.? think again. they get things done through american countries, but their products don't sell well except for their cars and videogames. thats the other reason why most rapid transit organizations around the world will not turn to them for manufacturing. other companies such as Bombardier and Siemens (i wish they went to siemens instead of Kawasaki, they build better rail cars)get contracts for railcars. i wish the MTA never did business with them, but because they are the lowest bidder and the closest is the reason they got the contract.
Kawasaki, like every other major company doing business in the USA, is subject to the provisions of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. If there were a pattern of racial bigotry by the management there, I'm quite sure that there would have been numerous Civil Rights cases there. Hence, the MTA would likely not have done business with Kawasaki.
I just read the article about Kawasaki railcar. They have not been very good to its workers and not good for New York. They should invite Otis evevator back to their old Yonkers plant, build a test elevator shaft and shove some of bosses from Kawasaki railcar down the evevator shaft that they build.
As for the problems with the R-142 subway cars. After reading that the workmanship was often shoddy I'm not surprised that there are problems with them. I wonder if Bombardier treat their employees better?
BMTJeff
Bombardier treats their workers way better. all workers are unionized and worker conditions are state of the art. Bombardier knows better not to screw the people for they are a French-Canadian company. French Canadians don't no BS.
Maybe Bombardier should move into the Yonkers plant when Kawasaki leaves since they treat their employees better than Kawasaki does. Maybe if the city is smart they won't buy any more subway cars from Kawasaki once they leave New York. Kawasaki doesn't derserve their business if they treat their employees so badly.
BMTJeff
I know how New York loves to shake down every vendor that comes to town (and then wonders why they go four paws to the moon in short order) but the Bombardier plant up in Plattsburgh has had more than enough troubles it would seem making its 142's work to the specs. In all sincerity, I think the city and the taxpayers would have been better off had the cars been made in Quebec in the same plant where they make all the other railcars rather than forcing them to come and hire people who don't have the experience in order to "hire local" for the benefit of job stats for politicians.
Reason I say this is Bombardier does an excellent job generally and the problems that have cropped up are more than likely due to the requirement that the cars be built in New York. Look at StupidSteel's crappy work up in Schenectady for the LIRR ...
Which of the facilities in Quebec are you talking about? What used to be the MLW works (now Bombardier), or what used to be CC&F's works (now Bombardier), or others that I'm not aware of?
It's the Thunder Bay plant in northern Ontario that has seen the most subway car building, not CC&F who I don't believe ever made any subway cars or MLW, who built one batch of 36 in the early 1960s, who are located in Quebec and now part of Bombardier as well. I'd recommend Thunder Bay over any of the alternatives in Quebec on that basis, although to MLW's credit their subway cars were excellent vehicles, but that was nearly 40 years ago.
-Robert King
Apologies there - I *was* thinking of Thunder Bay which I misplaced in the land of le Quebecois ... Bombardier does have a hell of a good reputation ... chalk it up to brain damage. :)
Ok, I was just wondering about that. The Montreal Locomotive Works plant now owned by Bombardier probably could produce good quality subway cars now, even if the only subway cars they produced were built over 1962-1963.
Those MLW subway cars were very well made and had an excellent reliability record too, despite the fact that they were quite revolutionary at the time being the first Canadian built subway cars, the first 75 foot long subway cars made in the world, and one of the lightest types of subway cars built in the world despite their length, incorporating an unprecedented amount of lightweight aluminum construction into the body. In fact, their design worked out so well that the basic design is still used as the standard starting point from which all of the TTC's subsequent subway cars have been designed from. So good subway cars could probably be produced in Quebec too...
-Robert King
Agreed ... I live in upstate New York, halfway between Schenectady (where StupidSteel is) and Albany so obviously I'm happy to see my homies gainfully employed and all in Plattsburgh to the north of here and in Yonkers, way to the south of here. Alas, all of these areas haven't had a whole lot of experience with railcars in better than 50 years and as much as I'm glad to see the jobs and all, building railcars does require a long amount of experience at doing so that would appear to be lacking in the outcome of the finished products.
Sometimes it's best to just let those who build them all the time do it rather than forcing companies to hire "in state" just to get the contract. I'm sure one of our beancounters here would welcome the opportunity to factor up the cost overruns caused by "made in New York" as opposed to having let them be built at the "real" factories.
i agree with that. however the reason that the experienced (the Canadians) can't come down to Plattsburgh is because of politics, which y'all know already. the built the factory to make transport easier and closer to ny transit systems. the canadians couldn't come over to work because they aren't us citizens. and they wouldn't be allowed because the canadians wouldn't let outsiders into their territory.
What gets me is we have this "NAFTA" treaty which says no matter where it's made, it's "domestic." It does make me wonder how much we're paying for the cars since factories had to be built and once the delivery is done, what do we think is going to happen to those employees? Once the fleet's been reupped, any company DUMB enough to bid and build is going to end up like Budd ... again, not that I mind folks having jobs as a part of this contract but it sure doesn't reflect any real long-term thinking ... whoop ... silly me - financial analysts don't look past the next fiscal quarter, politicos don't look past the next election ... nevermind. :)
Given the exchange rate between the Canadian and American currencies, it is obviously less expensive to have something like that built in Canada - especially since the factories already exist and are actually good at what they do. As for ending up like Budd, Bombardier is large enough and diverse enough and does enough international business, I don't think they need to worry as much as Budd.
Who devised the requirement demanding that all the new subway cars for NYC must be built in New York state (I'm guessing that it would originate with a politician in the state government, but I honestly don't know)? A cost-benefit study is definately in order, and could probably be buried easily enough if the findings aren't what they want to read.
-Robert King
Howdy again ... wasn't suggesting Bombardier would "go under" after the cars are built - what I meant was the factory that was tossed together in Plattsburgh likely would ... that's what makes it all so nonsensical in my own mind, even ignoring the exchange rates and other logic you tossed into the mix. I'll bet our politicos actually expect the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers to remain open for decades between future car orders as well. I'm sure you guys on the other side of the border have already seen the mental capacity of some of our own politicos, which clearly put your 301 MP's to shame. :)
And yes, our sausage crafters came up with the brilliant idea of providing bidding incentives to go knock down some trees and open up a car shop in the woods in order to have the coveted "Made in NY" label on the builder plates ... but it allows them to say they created jobs. Even if they go away once the cars are delivered.
I suppose the current governor, and possibly evne the next one after him, can keep the New York plants going for the rest of the decade, due to the upcoming replacements of the R-38/40/42 cars. That would prevent the votes -- err, I mean jobs -- from disappearing any time soon, but it would also lock in the MTA's car orders to Bombardier and Kawasaki because of the employment threat that would arise from not giving them the R-160 order (or whatever the contract number turns out to be).
Should be amusing, since KHI has the 143 order and is already making rumblings that they're going to quit Yonkers and head to the midwest, wonder how that's going to pan out if they do. There's a qualifier under NYS competitive bidding law that allows a "low bidder" to be (I think it's still) 3% higher than the "low bidder" if they're a New York company ... I'm all for "spend at home" of course, but such contrivances probably have ramped costs up beyond that 3% sweetness and in the end, if the quality of work out of a "propped-up" local plant doesn't measure up to the manufacturer's "real" plant, I don't see what the real benefits are here.
Then again, I'm a professional skeptic, kids please don't try this at home. :)
I agree with your sentiment. I think creating high-paying jobs and redeveloping local areas here are important, but local plants (workers, managers, everybody) still have responsibility for putting out a quality product - whatever that product might be. It's a two-way street.
Hopefully at the same time the Governor and the Mayor of New York City willrealize that there are problems at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers and try to straighten them out. BTW aren't the Adtranz cars built in Elmira?
BMTJeff
It isn't exactly practical for the 'experienced Canadians' to be working at an industrial plant far away from where they live (Thunder Bay or pick a plant in Quebec). There's no good reason to have the subway cars built in New York state either, when much better facilities exist elsewhere. Transporting subway cars from Thunder Bay, if they were to be built there, to New York city for example is much easier than bringing subway cars across the Atlantic Ocean from England to Toronto - and that was achieved before the St. Lawrence Seaway opened too.
-Robert King
>>> Alas, all of these areas haven't had a whole lot of experience with railcars in better than 50 years and as much as I'm glad to see the jobs and all, building railcars does require a long amount of experience at doing so that would appear to be lacking in the outcome of the finished products. <<<
What is unique to railcars that requires long experience to assemble? Isn't the whole idea of factory work from the time of Henry Ford to simplify the assembly so the workers do not need to be skilled? The Japanese have been quite successful at putting automobile assembly plants in places like Kentucky and other southern states without a great supply of automobile assembly workers.
Naturally the engineers need to be experienced, but there is nothing in U.S. immigration law that would prevent key personnel such as engineers and production managers from entering the country to work at the U.S. plants. It is too simple to blame the problems experienced with the output of the Kawasaki plant on inexperienced workers unless you are going to argue that New York people are below average in intelligence. The problems lie with management.
The decision to spend New York tax money in New York is also a rational one. Tax money that is spent on New York wages which then are spent on other goods in New York helps return some of that money to the state as taxes and reduces potential welfare expense.
Tom
Conceptually I would agree with you - it's just been my experience in manufacturing that you don't put your best and brightest and most skilled out into a "satellite office" other than to perhaps help bring the new operation up to speed prior to shipping.
And as to talent in NYS, let's look at the MTA's experience with Satellite operations brought into NYS in order to satisfy the "local content" clauses - Supersteel, part of GM/EMD (quite knowledgeable about locomotives and railcars) which located into Glenville, NY (Schenectady) - home to General Electric as well ... so how come the LIRR rebuilds, the Amtrak Turboliner rebuilds and the new cars for the LIRR have turned to absolute crap?
Bombardier is having some problems with the 142's, yet all the other railcars they build IN CANADA are extremely reliable. Kawasaki, in a satellite operation in Yonkers (another railcar builder with profound experience and an excellent "track record" in Japan and elsewhere) is having all sorts of problems cranking out pretty much a clone of what they build for JR (Japan Rail) ... all three have a common denominator of being built in a satellite plant in New York.
I haven't laid the blame for the specifics at the hands of the employees, management or a short talent pool here - but it is something noteworthy that all three carbuilding operations are producing flawed output for whatever the reason that would not have likely been the case if the equipment was being built in their own facilities with their own local talent.
While I'm sympathetic to the "spend local" cause, I wonder if it's working out financially ... that was pretty much what I was after ...
>>> I haven't laid the blame for the specifics at the hands of the employees, management or a short talent pool here - but it is something noteworthy that all three carbuilding operations are producing flawed output for whatever the reason that would not have likely been the case if the equipment was being built in their own facilities with their own local talent. <<<
Without building some of the same cars at the other plants it is impossible to say that they would not be flawed if they were built there. It is possible that problems are caused by relatively small design changes required by the end users. It is possible that the manufacturers are underbidding, by not taking into account all of the costs of starting a new manufacturing operation and training a workforce, and now are skimping on training and taking other shortcuts that are affecting the output. And there are other possibilities such as local graft and payoffs. Since it is not obvious why the NY plants are producing an inferior product, an investigation should be launched to discover the cause, rather than just saying assembling locally does not work.
Tom
Makes sense to me ... again, this is just a curiosity factor to me and there's all sorts of possibilities here. As far as the Kawasaki plant goes though, it sure does appear from the reports that started this thread that something is very much "not right" there ... then again, there have been problems for two other "transit vendors" as well and that's what piqued my own curiosity ...
Kawasaki also had some difficulties with the SEPTA light rail cars that were produced in 1981. The two prototypes (one for the interurban lines that run from Frankford Terminal and one for the streetcar service) ran extremely well, except for the American-made subassemblies. The production cars (final assembly at the Boeing-Vertol plant) had almost as many problems as the B-V cars for Boston and San Francisco, although the basic design was much better and therefore the problems were correctable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is too simple to blame the problems experienced with the output of the Kawasaki plant on inexperienced workers unless you are going to argue that New York people are below average in intelligence.
Well, considering how New York students rank on nationwide standardized tests ...
I'm pretty sure this is it:
Traingirl
Whoa.
I remember hearing about this.
Does anyone remember the aftermath of this? Did the kid survive? What did the parent/whoever have to say for himself? Or was he able to win a jillion bucks in a lawsuit for train operator negligence?
Whoa.
I remember hearing about this.
Does anyone remember the aftermath of this? Did the kid survive? What did the parent/whoever have to say for himself? Or was he able to win a jillion bucks in a lawsuit for train operator negligence?
The only question to which I know the answer for sure is your second one, and the answer is definitely not.
By the way, the person involved was an adult woman, not a child; it's hard to tell for sure, but she seems to be carrying a briefcase of some sort.
Yep. She keeps going even though the horn is going, and the other people have stopped walking. The worst part of the whole thing is the body hits the photographer.
-Hank
Yep. She keeps going even though the horn is going, and the other people have stopped walking. The worst part of the whole thing is the body hits the photographer.
I've heard two theories as to why the woman kept going. She was in the process of getting divorced, and was heading to a hearing or legal proceeding with her lawyer (the man right behind her). It's possible that she was so preoccupied with the upcoming proceeding that she simply didn't pay enough attention to her surroundings. Another theory says that the woman was wearing high heels and was concentrating on her footing as she crossed the uneven surface. I find that a little doubtful, given how fast she was walking.
Guess one thing's certain - the lawyer didn't collect his fee!
Hey I think this is how operation lifesaver started.
Woah! She got BOUNCED!
I have seen parts of this tape on TV, but they always cut it short. Now I know why.
Quick physics review:
mv1 + mv2 = mv1' + mv2'
or
large # + 0 = slightly smaller # + very small # * proportionitly large #
At least she got hit by an old E unit. She might not have come so cleanly off one of the newer F40's.
THATS GOTTA HURT! Is That a real video? And is the girl real?
My goodness!! Just looking at that just reminds me of a Person getting hit by a LIRR Train.
When the brains were passed out, did that rocket scientist say "make mine scrambled"? You cannot believe the things people do out here, and sometimes I get to see them. Imagine trying to put someone who just got hit like that back together again. How we did not go extinct is a puzzlement, sometimes. The train always wins, folks. Believe it.
When the brains were passed out, did that rocket scientist say "make mine scrambled"? You cannot believe the things people do out here, and sometimes I get to see them. Imagine trying to put someone who just got hit like that back together again. How we did not go extinct is a puzzlement, sometimes. The train always wins, folks. Believe it.
I suspect there wasn't much point in putting anything back together in that particular case :0
As to the issue of why we haven't gone extinct, I suppose part of the answer is that there were fewer "opportunities" in past millenia for the sudden termination of one's existence. But maybe not. The (very) distant ancestors of Traingirl probably were the sort who didn't know enough to get out of the path of stampeding wooly mammoths.
And Traingirl is/was by no means the only moron when it comes to train safety.
OH! That ain't right.
I have seen things like that in the Emergency Department. Even worse are some things that folks do to themselves. Take this one. Once a budding Einstein tried to relieve his constipation by giving himself an enema with DRANO. Yes he did. He died after two weeks of agony in the hospital. There are some tings you just don't do. Sometimes friends who work for Emerency Medical Services tell me about some brainiac who went onto the subway tracks to find out what the live third rail felt like. You would think that after one does that, the others would wise up, but no.
At which Metra station did this happen? Why was someone filming it?
This really happened in the past?? It is just amazing that people are this stupid. I've grown up taking Metra downtown my whole life, I only have good memory of the new blue Metra engines. This had to happen in the 80's?? (I'm only 19).
BJ
At which Metra station did this happen? Why was someone filming it?
This really happened in the past?? It is just amazing that people are this stupid. I've grown up taking Metra downtown my whole life, I only have good memory of the new blue Metra engines. This had to happen in the 80's?? (I'm only 19).
According to what I've heard, the incident took place in the town of Downers Grove in the very early 1990's. I don't know if there is more than one station in the town. The photographer was trying to capture the final days of the to-be-retired locomotives.
That just goes to show you that evolution has a way of weeding out the stupid.
Maybe, but from what I have seen, they don't die, they multiply.
Wow, Downers Grove is the next town over from where I live in Westmont.
There are three stations in Downers Grove. Fairview Ave., Main St., and Belmont Rd.
Main Street is called Downers Grove Main St. Fairview and Belmont are close to the neighboring towns, so they just call them the street names.
It is hard to see in that video what anything even remotely looks like, but if I had to guess I would say Main St. Simply because it is the most heavily used D.G. station. I actually buy a ten ride ticket for Zone E, even though Westmont is in Zone D. I use Downers Grove Main St. Station the majority of the time because of the direct express service it has. Westmont only has a few peak rush hour express trains that aren't direct. Main Street has good express service weekdays outbound between roughly 2-7 p.m. There is also now an express train on saturday mornings inbound at 9:40 (too early!) and outbound around 5:30 p.m.(too early!)
Wow, Downers Grove is the next town over from where I live in Westmont.
There are three stations in Downers Grove. Fairview Ave., Main St., and Belmont Rd.
Main Street is called Downers Grove Main St. Fairview and Belmont are close to the neighboring towns, so they just call them the street names.
It is hard to see in that video what anything even remotely looks like, but if I had to guess I would say Main St. Simply because it is the most heavily used D.G. station.
Well, I have heard that Traingirl's follies took place in Downers Grove, but I can't swear to the accuracy of that. No doubt there's a lot of rumor and misinformation floating about. All that I know for sure is that it was a METRA train.
Is that woman still alive? Hopefully she figured out by now that the train always wins. I can think of a lot of people who need to see that video, and many of the children in school should see it as well.
Geez, this stuff had me shaking and it's not like I haven't been a transit manager for a while. I was in the cab when an engineer ran a big grouse over -- we didn't stop. It's kinda different when it's a person and not an animal.
Sorry if this sounds like nonsense, it's the first time I'd seen this video and I'm a little shocked. Don't know what to say -- are people stupid, are people careless, or is this just one of the things that happen? You know, like say if that was a big semitrailer I'd probably think nothing of it.
(WARNING: VERY LONG POST)
The original thread has branched so far and wide that I'm repeating the same points over and over again and I'm still being misunderstood.
I'll try again right here. If I fail to respond to one of your posts in the other thread, I probably address it here.
For starters, none of the AirTrain proponents need fear: for better or for worse, the AirTrain system is being built rapidly and will soon be open. My comments here have no practical import, at least for the present time; I should have spoken up a few years ago. Still, I think it's useful to evaluate the progress we've made so we can learn from our mistakes and maybe do things better next time.
As background for those just tuning in now, AirTrain, a project of the Port Authority, is a light rail line in three parts: a 1.8-mile JFK Airport terminal loop, a 3-mile branch to Jamaica (with passenger connections to LIRR and the E/J/Z subways), and a 3.3-mile branch to Howard Beach (with passenger connections to the A subway). According to reports I've seen here and/or on nyc.transit, cars will be the same dimensions as NYCT's 60-foot B Division subway cars, and the fare will be $5 to Jamaica and Howard Beach and free within the airport. There will be no track connections to the subway system.
I have put forth, in skeletal form, a somewhat different plan: Instead of a station with a passenger connection at Howard Beach, install a direct track connection to the northbound A tracks. The airport circulator and the rest of the Howard Beach branch would remain essentially the same; the Jamaica branch would be abandoned for the time being. Service from Howard Beach to (and through) the airport would be via a branch of the A train; there would, presumably, be additional trains circulating only within the airport. Intra-airport passengers would ride for free; otherwise, standard subway fare would apply (i.e., currently, $1.50 with applicable MetroCard-based discounts).
There are a few reasons integration makes sense:The subway system is the backbone of New York City. With a few exceptions, the subway carries New Yorkers and New York's visitors to all major points of gathering and many minor ones. JFK Airport is one of those exceptions (LaGuardia and the Javits Center are two others), perhaps the most glaring of them all.
The subway system is familiar to New Yorkers. New Yorkers ride the subway all the time. They understand its fare control system, they know how to transfer between lines, they know how to find the platform they need. Relatively speaking, few New Yorkers regularly ride the other rail systems in the area. I haven't taken a survey, but I suspect that if you asked 100 random New Yorkers on the street or in the subway what exactly is involved in riding, say, Metro-North or NJTransit (from finding the station to buying the ticket to finding the platform to boarding the train to riding), only a few would be familiar with the steps -- and the others, on the rare occasion they need to ride an unfamiliar system, are forced to grapple with the unfamiliarities. AirTrain and the oft-touted LIRR from Jamaica to Penn Station are unfamiliar systems to most New Yorkers, who will waste time and energy just trying to figure them out.
Decades ago it was decided that the subway system would have a flat fare, independent of distance traveled. More recently, the MetroCard system has broadened the flat fare to most of the city even outside the reach of the subway. To charge $5.00 for a basic ride from Howard Beach to JFK is ludicrous. Even if the subway were to shift to distance-based fares -- an issue best left to another thread -- charging $1.50 for a ride from Pelham Bay Park to Rockaway Park but $6.50 for a ride from East New York to JFK is just plain insulting.
The east ("south") end of the A line sees little use. Even with the substandard bus connection to JFK currently in place, most passengers on Rockaway-bound trains get off at Howard Beach. With improved connections, the number of JFK-bound subway riders will only increase. Why should a vast majority of passengers be required to get off one train, go upstairs, wait some more, and board a second train when a simple track connection would do away with the need to even stand up? Transferring is always a turnoff. Transferring to a different platform is a bigger turnoff. Transferring to a different platform with luggage is a major turnoff -- and it's simply unnecessary.
I'll leave off here with the manifesto and begin answering some of the questions I've been asked:Q: Wouldn't this cost a lot more than the AirTrain system? Track connections are expensive.
A: Not at all. For one thing, stations -- especially the gaudy ones the PA is building -- probably cost more than track connections. For another, I've eliminated the entire line to Jamaica.
Q:Wait! Without the line to Jamaica, I can't get home.
A: Well, you still can get home, although you may have to go out of your way. If Jamaica, specifically, is your destination, you can take a bus or you can ride the A to the J/Z. I have nothing against Jamaica, and I would love to see one of the Jamaica subway lines extended to JFK as well, but let's do one thing at a time.
Q: So why not work with the Jamaica connection and abandon the Howard Beach branch?
A: Nothing earthshattering here: the Howard Beach branch just seems cheaper to implement and more effective at carrying airport crowds into Manhattan. Between the Van Wyck headaches and the already overcrowded E train (or, alternatively, the J/Z that barely reaches Manhattan), the A appears to make more sense. If I'm wrong, no big deal -- I'll shift my attention to an extension of the E or J/Z instead of the extension to the A that I've been pushing.
I'm no big fan of the A train -- it has poor connections to the BMT in Brooklyn and the IRT in Manhattan and it has no connections at all to the IRT in Brooklyn -- but it's what's there.
As for the LIRR, the subway is more useful. Sure, the LIRR via Jamaica is better for Long Island, most of Queens, and parts of Brooklyn, but the A train is better for the rest of Queens, most of Brooklyn, Manhattan (see below), Staten Island (not that either route is terribly useful here), the Bronx, Westchester, and New Jersey. JFK is the largest airport in the region and it serves clientele from the entire region. Furthermore, the vast majority of passengers from outside the city will drive regardless of availability of train service.
Q: The A train already has two branches. If you introduce a third, midday headways will rise to a full 30 minutes (based on 6 tph for the A overall).
A: Not to worry! I've outlined a few ways to reduce the number of branches back to two:
Extend the C to Lefferts. Branch the A between JFK and Far Rockaway.
Leave the C alone. Close the Lefferts branch -- it's only three stops long and not many use it -- and run buses instead. Branch the A between JFK and Far Rockaway.
Leave the C alone. Reinstitute the round-robin H Rockaways shuttle, full-time. Branch the A between Lefferts and JFK.
Each of these leaves 3 tph -- 20-minute service -- available for JFK-bound trains. Combining two of these techniques yields the full 6 tph for JFK service. And, middays, there's tons of extra track capacity than can be filled with more JFK trains if demand warrants. (For a ballpark figure, consider that the C and the D, the two lines the A shares trackage with, each run approximately 6 tph middays. If the maximum track capacity is 30 tph, that leaves up to 24 tph for the A. Theoretically, if the line becomes popular enough, JFK-bound trains could run every 2.5 minutes. If it comes to that, the line's more popular than I would have ever imagined.)
Q: Hold it! Didn't you claim that you wanted to eliminate a transfer? With these shuttle and bus schemes, you're imposing transfers on daily commuters.
A: I sure am. I'm imposing one or two same-platform transfers on a few daily commuters so that many more luggage-laden airport passengers don't have to transfer to a different platform.
Q: The subway's slow. It takes well over an hour to get from Howard Beach to Manhattan by subway. With the AirTrain, people can take the LIRR to Jamaica an arrive at the airport in a fraction of the time, but you've done away with that option.
A: I'll start by debunking the first myth. According to the official timetables, the trip from Howard Beach to Chambers Street via the A takes 36 minutes, or 50 minutes to 59th Street. Let's reduce that a bit more -- eliminate one of the express stops in Brooklyn, either Utica or Nostrand, skip the elevated stops peak-direction via the center express track, and bypass Aqueduct at all times on the express tracks. Let's say that reduces our running time by four minutes. Now add eight minutes to get from JFK to Howard Beach -- exactly the time it will take the AirTrain, according to the official web page. Add on the average wait time of ten minutes, based on 20-minute headways -- the absolute worse service the A would see at any time of day or night. So it will take 50 minutes to get from JFK to Chambers and 64 minutes to get from JFK to 59th. The timetable doesn't list 34th Street explicitly but let's say it takes exactly one hour to get there.
Let's compare that to the time it would take via AirTrain and LIRR. According to the official web page, AirTrain will run on four-minute headways during peak times, so the average wait will be two minutes. (I'm giving the AirTrain a big advantage here by using its peak headways but the A's off-peak headways.) AirTrain to Jamaica is eight minutes -- we're up to 10. Figure eight minutes to get to the LIRR station, buy a ticket, and make it to the platform: 18. Figuring that most long-haul flights get in between roughly noon and 8pm, I consulted the LIRR schedule, and I see that service from Jamaica to Penn ranges from 4 to 6 tph -- let's figure the average is 5 tph, or 12-minute headways, for an average 6-minute wait: 24. Typical running times to Penn are about 19 minutes: 43. Give seven minutes to push through the crowds and get out of the station: that brings us to 50 minutes.
Given the choice of spending $1.50 (or less, with the help of MetroCard discounts) to get from JFK to Penn in one hour or spending $8.75 or $10.50 (off-peak vs. peak) and dragging luggage through a transfer to save ten minutes, I think most will opt for the former. Furthermore, few people are actually going to Penn itself. A train riders have dozens of transfer opportunities, many without changing platforms, and the lucky ones don't even have to transfer at all. Penn Station only connects to two trunk subway lines, one of which carries the A itself; except for passengers bound for points on the C/E (but not the A) or the 1/2/3/9, two more transfers are required via AirTrain/LIRR than via A train (AirTrain to LIRR, LIRR to first subway, first subway to second subway vs. A directly to second subway).
Clearly, riding the A directly from JFK is easier for all Manhattan-bound passengers, cheaper for all Manhattan-bound passengers, and quicker for most Manhattan-bound passengers.
Q: Stop harping on the transfers. They're all ADA-compliant, anyway; what's the big deal?
A: Transfers are a big deal. Even without luggage transfers are a big deal. ADA compliance helps, but even people with rolling luggage need to get off one train and drag it to the next -- and not everyone has rolling luggage.
Many people pay a premium or fly at inconvenient times to avoid having to change flights -- and the airline deals with the transfer of the checked luggage there. What makes you think people are so willing to carry all their luggage -- carryon and checked -- from platform to platform?
Q: Speaking of ADA compliance, only a handful of subway stations are compliant while most of the LIRR system is compliant. Wouldn't it be better for the airport to be connected to the compliant rail system?
A: Yes -- if that rail system takes people where they need to go. For most air passengers arriving at JFK, it doesn't. Does it do me any good that I can get to Merrick without climbing stairs if my destination is in Harlem?
Q: I don't want the subway to go to JFK. The subway is scary, dangerous, full of graffiti, ...
A: This is SubTalk. Are you sure you've come to the right place?
Q: The subway already has a car shortage. How do you expect to find the rolling stock to extend the A?
A: The same way the PA expects to find the rolling stock to run the AirTrain: by buying new cars.
Q: AirTrain's rolling stock is designed specifically for carrying airport passengers with luggage. The R38 is designed with generic commuters in mind. Where will passengers put their luggage?
A: On the seats -- the same place AirTrain passengers will put their luggage on whatever train they take to get to Jamaica or Howard Beach -- except with my system they don't have to transfer it from a different train. Luggage racks for the first eight minutes of an hour-long trip aren't worth much, are they?
But the A doesn't need to rely on the good old R38 or R44 anymore. We're buying new rolling stock, remember? If the new cars are designed to accomodate airport passengers without decreasing commuter capacity -- overhead luggage racks might work -- then the A train will be properly equipped for airport service.
Q: The PA has the funds for the AirTrain. The MTA doesn't have the funds for an A train extension.
A: I don't care who extends the A train. If the PA has the money, or if the PA can build track for less than the MTA, then let the PA fund it. (Remember, it's both cheaper and more useful than the AirTrain. If the PA builds anything, it might as well be the subway extension.)
Q: But the PA isn't allowed to use its funds for a subway extension. The airlines weren't even happy with the AirTrain.
A: The airlines are stupid. What more can I say? Improved access to JFK attracts fliers to JFK over the other area airports and attracts non-fliers to the world of air travel. If this isn't in the interest of the airlines, I don't know what is.
Q: I had another question, but I forgot it.
A: That's what happens when it's getting late. When you remember it, post it and I'll give it my best.
Too long post to capture an average attention span :-)
[Q:Wait! Without the line to Jamaica, I can't get home. ]
You forget that Long Island is more than Kings County. IMO interesting note is that the LIRR connection would more cut into PA-s parking revenues as most Manhattanites, tourists probably take a cab. LI would make the most sense for people to use long term parking.
Arti
You forget that Long Island is more than Kings County.
No I don't. I'm afraid that no single connection will be ideal for everyone, and I'd rather see the utility maximized for the greatest number of users. Would you prefer a line that provides mediocre service to everyone or a line that provides excellent service to many or, probably, most?
IMO interesting note is that the LIRR connection would more cut into PA-s parking revenues as most Manhattanites, tourists probably take a cab. LI would make the most sense for people to use long term parking.
Exactly. Most suburbanites who drive will continue to drive. Most Long Islanders need to drive to the LIRR station, anyway, and traffic into JFK from the east isn't nearly as bad as traffic from the west. There's really very little incentive not to drive from the east, and AirTrain won't substantially change that.
[Would you prefer a line that provides mediocre service to everyone or a line that provides excellent service to many or, probably, most? ]
Hmm.. Would you mind rereading what you just posted?
My translation would be:
Would you like a line that provides a mediocre service to everyone over a line providing an exellent service to "everyone" , but this time everyone will be defined by me as to prove my point.
Arti :-)
Are you accusing him of circular reasoning?
Good! I am, too!
I'm not sure where the confusion is. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Let me try again:
AirTrain helps everyone in the region. It doesn't help anyone very much and doesn't provide a huge improvement over current options, but it helps Long Islanders and Manhattanites alike.
An A train extension doesn't help everyone -- in particular, Long Islanders and Queensites are largely left out -- but those who it does help receive major benefits.
While AirTrain has the potential to serve more people, I don't think it will give them -- expecially the Long Islanders -- enough of an advantage over however they get to the airport today to win them over.
And don't forget that my only reason for excluding Jamaica is to save money. You want to keep the Jamaica leg? Fine, keep it -- that's a minor issue. My basic point is that there's no reason to make people change trains at Howard Beach when a track connection would better serve (nearly) everyone.
Thanks for the clarifications. Most of all thanks for starting a single thread. Let's hope it sticks.
re: time estimates. You're probably being a bit harsh here with the 8 minute connection at Jamaica -- it's going to be an escalator or elevator ride away. If anyone has even a slice of a brain, they'll sell the LIRR tickets from Jamaica to Penn at the same time they sell the (obscene) $5 AirTrain fee. Charging another 7 minutes to get out of Penn Station from the LIRR is also rather unfair when you don't charge any to exit the subway. After all, you do have to go down one flight then up two flights of stairs to get from the A train platform to the street. It's probably more like 60 minutes vs 42 minutes -- which still isn't huge.
re: luggage on the seats. This could work OK during the periods of the lightest loads when departing JFK. Travelling to JFK, many passengers would be getting on a train which already is crowded. So you get luggage in the aisles and luggage blocking the doors. Slows things down considerably.
re: cost of stations. Stations at the airport will probably be gaudy, no matter who builds them. You need to build something attractive, so that people will switch to it. Degree of gaudiness needed is debatable. One thing to keep in mind is that although AirTrain is planning on 60' cars, the stations will be built to accomodate 4 car trains, max. So an A train station would be 2.5 times the size. To be fair, there's no way the cost goes up 2.5 times -- but the need for relatively straight 600 foot platforms does give rise to the question of whether there will be enough room in between stations for a reasonable turning radius. Screeching wheels overhead will turn newcomers off -- even if the stations are ultra-gaudy.
re: where the passengers are coming from / going to. I still think you are grossly over-estimating the JFK passenger volume from Manhattan and under-estimating it from Queens and Nassau/Suffolk. I've got nothing more than educated speculation to back it up, so I won't try any longer.
CG
[re: luggage on the seats. This could work OK during the periods of the lightest loads when departing JFK. Travelling to JFK, many passengers would be getting on a train which already is crowded. So you get luggage in the aisles and luggage blocking the doors. Slows things down considerably. ]
You're onto sth. here. I just realized, that clearly E would be a bad candididate for any airport access, but so are most of the modes of transit at rush hour. As Matt-2nd AV said in his original post, needs are different.
As I see it rush hour peak direction would be totally unacceptable for airport patron with any amount of luggage.
Now I would really like to see the study suggeting the current alignment as it seems to me that we all are missing some big and probably very obvious point.
Arti
The problem isn't as great as you're making it out to be -- relatively few airport passengers will be riding into or out of Manhattan in competition with commuters -- but to the extent that it is a problem, only an entirely new line into Manhattan will solve it. The subways are jammed and the LIRR is jammed.
re: competition with commuters and luggage issues
There isn't really an issue during the A.M. inbound rush, as there aren't too many arrivals at JFK during that time. The P.M. outbound rush could be a big problem, as it coincides with the overwhelming majority of European bound takeoffs. (Generally between 6 and 10 PM).
CG
It should be noted, of course, that the PM rush / luggage issue exists on any of the solutions. It might be somewhat mitigated on the LIRR as those trains have luggage racks.
...as would new subway cars purchased for the extension. They could have overhead luggage racks, designated luggage space below the seats, and maybe even a multishelved luggage rack where the generally unused cab otherwise eats up space.
re: time estimates. You're probably being a bit harsh here with the 8 minute connection at Jamaica -- it's going to be an escalator or elevator ride away. If anyone has even a slice of a brain, they'll sell the LIRR tickets from Jamaica to Penn at the same time they sell the (obscene) $5 AirTrain fee. Charging another 7 minutes to get out of Penn Station from the LIRR is also rather unfair when you don't charge any to exit the subway. After all, you do have to go down one flight then up two flights of stairs to get from the A train platform to the street. It's probably more like 60 minutes vs 42 minutes -- which still isn't huge.
AirTrain will accept MetroCard -- otherwise I would have added a few minutes to buy that ticket as well. Remember that most passengers won't be intimately familiar with Jamaica, the AirTrain section or the LIRR section, and that most New Yorkers will need a little bit of time just to figure out the LIRR ticket procedure. (I certainly will. I haven't ridden the LIRR in over ten years. It's simply an irrelevant system to most New Yorkers.)
The LIRR train empties out entirely at Penn -- that takes more time than dumping a few people at each station on the A train. And the down-and-then-up exit from the A train is only at Penn itself -- most passengers will be getting off elsewhere, anyway.
re: luggage on the seats. This could work OK during the periods of the lightest loads when departing JFK. Travelling to JFK, many passengers would be getting on a train which already is crowded. So you get luggage in the aisles and luggage blocking the doors. Slows things down considerably.
How does AirTrain help in this respect? Instead of luggage getting in the way for the direct ride to the airport, it gets in the way as far as Howard Beach or Jamaica. My impression is that LIRR trains are crowded, and the E is worse even than the A.
I suggested including low-key luggage facilities in the new car purchase for the line. I don't think the PA plans on retrofitting LIRR and TA cars with luggage racks.
Keep in mind that peak flight arrival and departure times don't correspond to peak commuter travel times. Flights tend to leave in the morning and early afternoon, so only people catching late flights will interfere with the afternoon rush -- and very few flights arrive before 9 in the morning, so the morning rush is even less of a problem. Air travelers will, for the most part, be using the excess capacity available off-peak and reverse-peak.
re: cost of stations. Stations at the airport will probably be gaudy, no matter who builds them. You need to build something attractive, so that people will switch to it. Degree of gaudiness needed is debatable. One thing to keep in mind is that although AirTrain is planning on 60' cars, the stations will be built to accomodate 4 car trains, max. So an A train station would be 2.5 times the size. To be fair, there's no way the cost goes up 2.5 times -- but the need for relatively straight 600 foot platforms does give rise to the question of whether there will be enough room in between stations for a reasonable turning radius. Screeching wheels overhead will turn newcomers off -- even if the stations are ultra-gaudy.
Of course the stations will be gaudy, but my plan eliminates the (presumably) two gaudiest ones of all, at Jamaica and at Howard Beach.
You're right, I failed to address the issue of train length. I don't think there's a need for full 600-foot platforms. Solution 1: Adopt the South Ferry approach and let the last few cars dangle behind each station. Yes, this is a waste of good rolling stock that could be in use elsewhere, but I don't think the expense is outrageously high. Solution 2 (also a solution to the branching issue, which I outlined in one of my earlier posts but not in this long one): Develop a system to permit rapid, automatic coupling and decoupling. Retain the A's current two branches but split each train in half, sending one half to JFK and the other half on the current branch. (Yes, platform signage would have to be really good and the PA system would need to be checked regularly.) This technology could also be used on other lines -- for instance, it could be used to implement the Jamaica-to-Jamaica merger of the J and the V, with the cars not usable on the Broadway line either laid up or somehow sent somewhere else, and it could be used, particularly off-hours, to reduce headways on other branching lines (2/3 at either end, 2/5 in the Bronx, N/R at either end, E/F in Queens, etc.) by running two half-length trains to each branch in the time that currently one full-length train serves each branch. (My point here is simply that such technology could be used system-wide.)
This is a problem, and I'm not thrilled with either of my solutions. I don't think it's enough of a problem to condemn the entire approach, though (not that I'm accusing you of condemning it).
re: where the passengers are coming from / going to. I still think you are grossly over-estimating the JFK passenger volume from Manhattan and under-estimating it from Queens and Nassau/Suffolk. I've got nothing more than educated speculation to back it up, so I won't try any longer.
I'm in the same position as you; we should probably just agree to disagree at this point. But, just to clarify, I do realize that many JFK passengers come from Queens and Nassau/Suffolk, but I also realize that the vast majority come by car and will continue to come by car. The Manhattanites are the ones who will actually make use of the line.
9. Q: I don't want the subway to go to JFK. The subway is scary, dangerous, full of graffiti, ...
A: This is SubTalk. Are you sure you've come to the right place?
Probably tongue in cheek, but you've made an important point. 99.99999872% (give or take) of the people who must be attracted to a JFK connector dpn't read SubTalk.
11. Q: AirTrain's rolling stock is designed specifically for carrying airport passengers with luggage. The R38 is designed with generic commuters in mind. Where will passengers put their luggage?
A: On the seats -- the same place AirTrain passengers will put their luggage on whatever train they take to get to Jamaica or Howard Beach -- except with my system they don't have to transfer it from a different train. Luggage racks for the first eight minutes of an hour-long trip aren't worth much, are they?
Oh, that'll be a party during rush hour, when some pregnant mom or dude with a 'tude can't sit down because a yuppie air traveler has his Vuitton luggage on the seat.
Have you ever ridden one of the LIRR summer trains which mix regular commuters and weekenders with luggage?
12. Q: The PA has the funds for the AirTrain. The MTA doesn't have the funds for an A train extension.
A: I don't care who extends the A train. If the PA has the money, or if the PA can build track for less than the MTA, then let the PA fund it. (Remember, it's both cheaper and more useful than the AirTrain. If the PA builds anything, it might as well be the subway extension.)
Maybe if you say "pretty please."
Q: But the PA isn't allowed to use its funds for a subway extension. The airlines weren't even happy with the AirTrain.
A: The airlines are stupid. What more can I say? Improved access to JFK attracts fliers to JFK over the other area airports and attracts non-fliers to the world of air travel. If this isn't in the interest of the airlines, I don't know what is.
Maybe so, but they don't want it and they have the power and the law on their side. What you got?
Some questions you didn't cover:
15. Have you ever ridden a long regular service subway connector from a major airport? I have, from Heathrow to London, when it wasn't crowded, with modern pleasant equipment. Result: stops, starts anf time major irritant when you're tired, stressed and jet lagged.
16. The end of the A Line might be underused, but people's origins and destinations will not be the end of the A Line, it will be the most crowded part of the line in Manhattan. Why do you believe subway riders will be sanguine about airline passengers crowding onto "their" subways.
17. Were you around when "The Train to the Plane" was running? Did you ever ride it or take a peek inside at the passenger load? Why do you believe a regular-service "A" train will succeed where the former service failed?
Probably tongue in cheek, but you've made an important point. 99.99999872% (give or take) of the people who must be attracted to a JFK connector dpn't read SubTalk.
Yes, but I think most realize by now that the today's subway is basically safe and clean.
Oh, that'll be a party during rush hour, when some pregnant mom or dude with a 'tude can't sit down because a yuppie air traveler has his Vuitton luggage on the seat.
And how is the AirTrain any better? That same yuppie air traveler still has to get out to Howard Beach or Jamaica.
15. Have you ever ridden a long regular service subway connector from a major airport? I have, from Heathrow to London, when it wasn't crowded, with modern pleasant equipment. Result: stops, starts anf time major irritant when you're tired, stressed and jet lagged.
I addressed this. From JFK to Penn, direct A service takes a whopping ten minutes longer than AirTrain-LIRR service, it's a lot cheaper, and it avoids a transfer. From JFK to just about anywhere else in Manhattan, direct A service is faster, it's even cheaper, and it possibly avoids two transfers.
Given those two choices, I don't see why anyone would opt for AirTrain-LIRR except for a few who are going to Penn Station itself and have next to no luggage at all.
Although I haven't ridden it, I'm familiar with the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. Notice that, with few exceptions (one of them on a brief stretch of the Piccadilly line), London doesn't have express service. The A train won't be as slow. As for the new direct link to Paddington: (a) the basic Underground service is still available for those who don't want to pay extra or want the greater flexibility of the tube; (b) the Piccadilly line doesn't serve Paddington; (c) the service is direct, with no changes or tickets to buy in the middle; (d) the service is dedicated from beginning to end, with no need to share space with LIRR commuters for most of the trip; (e) luggage can be checked at Paddington.
What about other cities that have direct transit service to the airport? My impression is that it's well used. And that's without express service and without the overwhelming transit reliance particular to NYC.
16. The end of the A Line might be underused, but people's origins and destinations will not be the end of the A Line, it will be the most crowded part of the line in Manhattan. Why do you believe subway riders will be sanguine about airline passengers crowding onto "their" subways.
What makes you believe LIRR passengers will be any more pleased? In the end, they'll live. Most air passengers won't be competing with commuters, anyway.
17. Were you around when "The Train to the Plane" was running? Did you ever ride it or take a peek inside at the passenger load? Why do you believe a regular-service "A" train will succeed where the former service failed?
Let's compare.
JFK Express: express train with premium fare; transfer to slow bus
AirTrain: express train with regular fare or LIRR train with premium fare; transfer to AirTrain with premium fare
Direct A connection: express train with regular fare directly to the airport
See the similarities between AirTrain and the JFK Express? The transfer is still there and the extra fare is still there. All that's been eliminated is the slow bus ride. A direct A connection does away with all three.
A nice position paper, but I think you are operating under the assumption that the primary users of this system are New Yorkers who want to go to JFK, or, in the future, LGA. Actually, I think the primary users are going to be out-of-towners who need a quick, convenient, reasonably priced alternative to taxis to get to and from Manhattan....and $5 to Jamaica may be worth their while. (On the other hand, $5 to Howard Beach may not.) Furthermore, a Jamaica line can be extended north to LGA, so that the one could go from airport to airport on a single ride.
I would be in favor of giving the proposed system a shot. Perhaps some fare relief can be incorporated, say, pay $5 at the airport with free transfer to the subway, and a reduced fare to the airport for subway transferees.
There is also a big discussion on SubTalk concerning extending the subway into southeastern Queens via the LIRR Atlantic Branch. Perhaps a terminus at JFK (via the Rockaway Blvd back door?) may be the ultimate answer to subway service to that airport.
I object strenuously to the notion that subway fare should be determined by how much the rider is able or willing to spend. Perhaps the current $1.50 flat fare should be replaced with a distance-based fare (although I don't see how it could be implemented without causing major delays), but adopting the strategy you promote systemwide is patently offensive.
Allow me to clarify.
While the AirTrain is not part of the subway system, let's see what we can do to reduce the fare for those who connected from/to the system, while at least letting the MTA see if that price will work. And since I believe it will be paid largely by out-of-towners, and if the "profits" (if they exist) can be used to enhance the transit system generally, then more power to them.
When the subway system goes to the airport directly via extension of existing lines, then, of course, there should not be any extra fare. As a former Rockaway line rider in the 60's and 70's, I am particularly sensitive to that position.
I don't understand. If passengers ride straight through, the fare should be low, but if they have to change trains, there's nothing wrong with charging a full $5 for the little eight-minute ride at the end?
It's psychological. You advertise the AirTrain as not the subway, not the railroad, not a bus, but a "special" mode of public transportation devoted only to airport traffic, that's clean, and new, with the baggage compartments, etc. that takes you to a major transportation hub (Jamaica) where you can get quickly to Midtown Manhattan without sitting on the expressways in traffic in the back of a cab. It's the high-tech, amusement ride equivalent of the shuttle bus to the rent-a-car place.
If it is built as part of the subway, then it is just another stop; no special amenities, probably not express to Jamaica, etc. The total time taken to get to Manhattan would not be much different, but the psychological quality of the ride would be.
The first method is very conducive to the short-term business traveler or tourist, because they can get where they want to go quickly, and, compared to the horror stories about cab fares, relatively cheaply. The average New Yorker on a long-term vacation will still probably use his car or have someone drop him off. The second alternative, of course, is the one more conducive to city residents, particularly those who may work at the airport and not own a vehicle. But they didn't do it that way, so let's give the way they did do it a chance.
A very creative approach to a potential marketing problem (if it is one)!
For those of us who get stuck in tunnel-vision, you're a breath of fresh air. A very intelligent, thoughtful response. Loved reading it.
What's your background, if I may be so nosy?
A little off-topic: I assume you are a woman - with anonymous handles, one can never be sure.
How many women post on Subtalk? Is it really predominantly men here?
Ron, it is predominately men out here, most definitely. I don't know SickTransitGloria so I can't comment (and wouldn't anyway, as a matter of principle) but I do know that several females have passed through this site at different points (either from their own statements on the board or from offline emails). One of the most rabid (but responsible) railfans I know is female - she's a big steam fan, while her husband prefers diesels. Neither post here, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can't imagine why that's at all desireable. Why would anyone bound for Manhattan prefer to pay $5 for an amusement park ride to Jamaica than $1.50 for a direct ride to Manhattan itself? I'm arguing here for a transportation facility, not an amusement park. If you want an amusement park, be my guest, but don't then claim that it's the best way to Manhattan when it most clearly isn't.
The average New Yorker on a long-term vacation will still probably use his car or have someone drop him off.
That would be difficult; the average New Yorker -- the average New York household, in fact -- doesn't have a car. Especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn, which the A train serves directly.
But they didn't do it that way, so let's give the way they did do it a chance.
Well, of course -- it's not like we have a choice. But are we not allowed to critique what has already been done to try to learn from our mistakes?
"I can't imagine why that's at all desireable. Why would anyone bound for Manhattan prefer to pay $5 for an amusement park
ride to Jamaica than $1.50 for a direct ride to Manhattan itself? I'm arguing here for a transportation facility, not an amusement
park. If you want an amusement park, be my guest, but don't then claim that it's the best way to Manhattan when it most clearly
isn't."
The silly reference to "amusement park ride" belongs in a political sound bite, not a serious debate - and it undermines your argument, Dave - it suggests you're not taking the subject seriously.
One could argue that anything besides heavy subway is an amusement park ride, inherently unworthy of consideration. Why shouldn't people look at Hudsen-Bergen Light Rail and say, "That's just like the silly tram that runs up and down Main Street in Disneyland. Do we need an E ticket?" By that measure, the Newark subway is a silly toy unworthy of spending any money (unless they install third rail and buy R-143's for it).
Leave the silly soundbites for the people who need them. You don't.
The silly reference to "amusement park ride" belongs in a political sound bite, not a serious debate - and it undermines your argument, Dave - it suggests you're not taking the subject seriously.
If I'm not taking the subject seriously, why did I spend a few hours writing the long post at the top of this thread?
SickTransitGloria compared the AirTrain to an amusement park ride, not me.
One could argue that anything besides heavy subway is an amusement park ride, inherently unworthy of consideration. Why shouldn't people look at Hudsen-Bergen Light Rail and say, "That's just like the silly tram that runs up and down Main Street in Disneyland. Do we need an E ticket?" By that measure, the Newark subway is a silly toy unworthy of spending any money (unless they install third rail and buy R-143's for it).
The designers of the HBLR didn't design a system uncannily similar (down to the car dimensions) to an existing, much larger system in the area, place a transfer point between the two at a location where nearly every passenger on one system would need to transfer to the other -- and then go ahead and (a) charge $5 and (b) refuse to install a track connection. (And HBLR passengers aren't generally shlepping luggage.)
SickTransitGloria compared the AirTrain to an amusement park ride in psychological effect. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I'm looking for the best transportation facility, regardless of psychological effect. That's not AirTrain, as I made clear in my initial post to this thread.
"If I'm not taking the subject seriously, why did I spend a few hours writing the long post at the top of this thread?
SickTransitGloria compared the AirTrain to an amusement park ride, not me."
Gloria analyzed AirTrain's marketing challenges and opportunities. Her conclusions reflect her opinion, but this was clearly the context.
You, on the other hand, offered a "sound bite" with little value in any context. Your reply was not on the same level as hers, regardless of the number of words used.
If you want to ignore my points rather than responding to them, you don't need to come up with excuses.
"If you want to ignore my points rather than responding to them, you don't need to come up with excuses."
I'm not ignoring your points - I'm trying to raise the level of debate in this thread in particular.
Did you have to bring Disneyland into it. I could construe that as a knock on my Southern California. Just joshing you. But I did get egg in my face when I brought up a suggestion for a subway to the airports. I was told Airtrain was being beaten to death and where the hell had I been. I get that from not reading and thinking airtrain was the same as an airbus (plane). But it does seem riduculous that a great transportation system like the New York Subway cannot provide adequate transportation to the airports. That bus that take you to LaGuardia from Jackson Heights or Woodside takes forever to get there.
I agree with you.
The egg on your face was nothing like the omelette I earned when I misinterpreted the Michelson-Morley experiment while discussing the speed of light. In addition to the omelette, I got lashes with both linguini and angel-hair pasta...:0)
Well Ron, as they say: Misery loves company. Now I don't feel so lonely. I'll tell you this. I will never mix up Airtrain with Airbus again.
There is one possible link between the two: If Bombardier Aerospace's French unit(s) Division built any components as a subcontractor to Aerospatiale...
"I object strenuously to the notion that subway fare should be determined by how much the rider is able or willing to spend.
Perhaps the current $1.50 flat fare should be replaced with a distance-based fare (although I don't see how it could be
implemented without causing major delays), but adopting the strategy you promote systemwide is patently offensive."
Only to the closed-minded among us. I have avoided this thread because I've said my peace on the subject (and it's being built). But Washington's distance-based fare was set-up in part because distant commuters are more able to afford it. In New York, for the subway, that's not the case, but Gloria does propose a reasonably equitable scenario to try out. And Washington and PATCO have shown than systems with entry and exit swipes can work even with crowded trains.
Charge $6 on entry, but when you exit, put $5 back on the card? That way people in a hurry don't have to re-swipe.
In other words, charge the maximum fare at first, and then deduct back down to the proper distance-based fare after the fact?
Interesting approach. I see two problems. First, few would be willing to forego the differential; if you're willing to do without, that doesn't help much if the crowd in front of you is swiping away. Second, it would be impossible to enter the system without the maximum fare on the card, even if most will be refunded in the end; short-haul riders will never be able to zero out their cards. This would hurt tourists most of all.
Separate the exits. People willing to pay the whole $6 and gain a little anonymity and time will walk through one set of exits; people wanting to wait to get their money back go through another set of exits. Unlimited-ride people can use either exit, but if they swipe it has no effect.
Don't most tourists buy the FunPass anyways? I'd probably set the "maximum fare" at the same price as the one-day pass.
Another idea -- have a MVM or something which allows the user to add a one-day funpass onto their stored value card, maybe even with money that is already on the card!
Okay, let's examine this approach.
First of all, not all passengers to the airport are flying anywhere at all. Some are picking up or dropping off friends or relatives. Some are airport employees. They should be charged $1.50, then, right? And what about people who can only afford discount flights?
On the flip side, tickets to (e.g.) concerts at Lincoln Center and games at Yankee Stadium are expensive. Why not charge people extra if they're going to LC and YS? After all, they can clearly afford an extra few dollars. What about people going to fancy restaurants?
Washington has a distance-based fare not because long-distance commuters are rich but simply because a long commute costs the transit agency more than a short commute. As I've said many times, I'd have no objection if the TA moved to a distance-based fare system (as a Manhattanite, I'd largely benefit from such a move), although I'm not as convinced as you are that such a system wouldn't slow down exiting to a crawl.
My objections are twofold: first, that passengers who can afford more (whatever that means) should pay more (by a factor of four!) than passengers who can't; and second, that it's reasonable to judge how much someone can afford by which station they go to.
I don't think my first objection needs much elaboration. A transit system is not the place to levy taxes on the rich. If you want to tax the rich to subsidize the poor, fine, but that has nothing to do with riding the trains and it shouldn't be incorporated into fare collection.
As for my second objection, you assume that someone who rides the short distance from, say, East New York to JFK must be some sort of rich guy pouring away lots of money on a vacation in Spain -- when, in fact, he may be a ticket agent for Delta or he may be a minimum wage earner embarking on the cheapest way he's found to his uncle's funeral in Texas tomorrow morning. You also assume that someone who rides the long distance from, say, Pelham Bay Park to Prospect Park is a poor commuter who can barely scrounge up the $1.50 to enter the system -- when, in fact, he may be a rich tourist on vacation from Spain checking out the city's fine parks. The generalization just doesn't work.
However you slice it, charging $1.50 to ride anywhere in the city except to or from JFK, where a $5.00 premium applies, makes no sense. Either charge $1.50 no matter what or transition to a fully distance-based system.
"First of all, not all passengers to the airport are flying anywhere at all. Some are picking up or dropping off friends or relatives.
Some are airport employees. They should be charged $1.50, then, right? And what about people who can only afford discount
flights?
On the flip side, tickets to (e.g.) concerts at Lincoln Center and games at Yankee Stadium are expensive. Why not charge
people extra if they're going to LC and YS? After all, they can clearly afford an extra few dollars. What about people going to
fancy restaurants? "
There is a way to do that. Many destinations have offered inducements to come by train (free LIRR fare etc. if you buy show tickets). If the airlines would like to toss in a free commutation ticket with purchase of air ticket - that's their business.
"Washington has a distance-based fare not because long-distance commuters are rich but simply because a long commute costs
the transit agency more than a short commute."
Yes, correct.
"I don't think my first objection needs much elaboration. A transit system is not the place to levy taxes on the rich. If you want to
tax the rich to subsidize the poor, fine, but that has nothing to do with riding the trains and it shouldn't be incorporated into fare
collection."
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Others may not agree with you.
"As for my second objection, you assume that someone who rides the short distance from, say, East New York to JFK must be
some sort of rich guy pouring away lots of money on a vacation in Spain -- when, in fact, he may be a ticket agent for Delta or
he may be a minimum wage earner embarking on the cheapest way he's found to his uncle's funeral in Texas tomorrow
morning."
I assume nothing myself. But the fact is, when you get on LIRR or Metro-North, you will pay more the further out you get. On the commuter railroads, and on WMATA, it may work out that, statistically, you're more likely to be better-to-do if you're coming from a distance (I do not state that for a fact, I am merely acknowledging its possibility). Doesn't matter - you're still going to pay more for a Zone 6 ticket than for a Zone 3 etc. That's OK with me.
Incidentally, on SEPTA, when you ride to the Airport on the R1 line, you always pay peak fare. It is considered a premium service.
"However you slice it, charging $1.50 to ride anywhere in the city except to or from JFK, where a $5.00 premium applies,
makes no sense. Either charge $1.50 no matter what or transition to a fully distance-based system."
You're entitled to your opinion. As I said before, others may not agree. That doesn't make them wrong, automatically.
There is a way to do that. Many destinations have offered inducements to come by train (free LIRR fare etc. if you buy show tickets). If the airlines would like to toss in a free commutation ticket with purchase of air ticket - that's their business.
You got it backwards. I asked why we don't charge people a greater fare if they're spending a lot of money at their destination (like you would like to charge JFK passengers extra).
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Others may not agree with you.
Of course, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to redistribute wealth via the transit system. It seems incredibly inefficient to me. Charge people the appropriate transit fare; redistribute wealth separately.
I assume nothing myself. But the fact is, when you get on LIRR or Metro-North, you will pay more the further out you get. On the commuter railroads, and on WMATA, it may work out that, statistically, you're more likely to be better-to-do if you're coming from a distance (I do not state that for a fact, I am merely acknowledging its possibility). Doesn't matter - you're still going to pay more for a Zone 6 ticket than for a Zone 3 etc. That's OK with me.
That's okay with me too -- I have nothing against charging by distance, and zones are usually a reasonable approximation.
But charging a $5 premium to go to JFK (from anywhere), and $1.50 to go anywhere else in the system, is not at all a reasonable approximation.
If it's a distance-based fare, it's grossly out of whack. If it's a who-can-afford-it-based fare, it's based on assumptions of who can afford it. You seem to be denying both. So what is it?
Incidentally, on SEPTA, when you ride to the Airport on the R1 line, you always pay peak fare. It is considered a premium service.
I've never ridden SEPTA. Is there another route to the airport? How do peak fares compare to off-peak fares? Is the airport within the region that's served by rapid (subway-style) transit or is it served by commuter rail only?
"I've never ridden SEPTA. Is there another route to the airport? How do peak fares compare to off-peak fares? Is the airport
within the region that's served by rapid (subway-style) transit or is it served by commuter rail only? "
The R1 commuter train is the only mass transit option to the airport. It runs every half-hour, visiting all terminals (arranged linearly). The peak fare is comparable to some other peak fares for outer suburban zones on the system.
For comparison, my 18 minute ride from Center City to a Zone 2 neighborhood is $2.75, and $3.50 peak. (Fares are set to change soon).
"I've never ridden SEPTA. Is there another route to the airport? How do peak fares compare to off-peak fares? Is the airport
within the region that's served by rapid (subway-style) transit or is it served by commuter rail only? "
The R1 commuter train is the only mass transit option to the airport. It runs every half-hour, visiting all terminals (arranged linearly). The peak fare is something like $5 (last time I rode) comparable to some other peak fares for outer suburban zones on the system.
For comparison, my 18 minute ride from Center City to a Zone 2 neighborhood is $2.75, and $3.50 peak. (Fares are set to change soon).
In other words, the airport is in a part of the region that's only served by commuter rail. Pricing it within the commuter rail system, then, makes sense. I don't know why it warrants peak fares at all times, but (if your example of a Center City - Zone 2 commute is any indication) peak fares are only about 27% higher than off-peak fares.
OTOH, JFK is in a part of the region -- namely, NYC itself -- that is served by the subway. It deserves to be integrated into the subway system, both in track and in price. As for peak vs. off-peak fares, the subway doesn't charge a premium for peak service at all, and even if it did, don't you think a 333% premium is a bit on the high side?
"In other words, the airport is in a part of the region that's only served by commuter rail. Pricing it within the commuter rail
system, then, makes sense. I don't know why it warrants peak fares at all times, but (if your example of a Center City - Zone 2
commute is any indication) peak fares are only about 27% higher than off-peak fares."
Correct, but remember that in Philadelphia, the longest subway line (Market-Frankford) covers only 13 miles from end to end. So the commuter rail-only region is closer into the city than it would be in New York.
And you are correct regarding the fare structure. It's changing soon, and there is the usual complaining, but it's not totaly out-of-line from other cities like NY (except that $5 and change in NY gets you from Penn to New Hyde Park, and in Philly that amount of money wouldn't take you as far). The structure is proportional.
"OTOH, JFK is in a part of the region -- namely, NYC itself -- that is served by the subway. It deserves to be integrated into
the subway system, both in track and in price. As for peak vs. off-peak fares, the subway doesn't charge a premium for peak
service at all, and even if it did, don't you think a 333% premium is a bit on the high side?"
The market will decide. The only true way to discover the elasticity of demand is to see what happens after they cut the ribbon.
Correct, but remember that in Philadelphia, the longest subway line (Market-Frankford) covers only 13 miles from end to end. So the commuter rail-only region is closer into the city than it would be in New York.
Of course. Philadelphia doesn't rely as heavily on its subway as New York relies on its. I'm not asking that New York's subway be extended way out into the boondocks -- I'm asking that it be extended over a new three-mile line that's being built regardless. Just put in the track connection and drop the extra fare!
The market will decide. The only true way to discover the elasticity of demand is to see what happens after they cut the ribbon.
Are you in favor of market-based fare pricing throughout or only to the airport?
"Are you in favor of market-based fare pricing throughout or only to the airport?"
Personally, I believe the airport is a premium destination, so I'm not terribly upset about this pricing.
Remember that taxis and car services also charge extra to go to airports (the taxi line is coveted at many airports because the cab driver knows that rides will be longer. So airport authorities charge a fee for the cab to be there.
But really, I was stating the consequences of a fait accompli. It's built - we'll see what happens.
Personally, I believe the airport is a premium destination, so I'm not terribly upset about this pricing.
What's a premium destination? What makes a destination premium? Are there any other premium destinations in NYC? Why do you make this distinction at all?
Remember that taxis and car services also charge extra to go to airports (the taxi line is coveted at many airports because the cab driver knows that rides will be longer. So airport authorities charge a fee for the cab to be there.
I don't know about airport authorities charging a fee, but taxis do not charge extra to go to airports. Trips to and from LGA are on the meter, plain and simple. Trips to JFK are on the meter; trips from JFK to anywhere in Manhattan are charged a flat fee of, IIRC, $30 -- that's not an extra charge; it's simply a way of preventing cabbies from giving their passengers from out of town extended tours of the city and charging for them per mile. Trips to EWR are covered under a separate clause, simply because they're the only common out-of-state destination (other out-of-state destinations, IIRC, aren't computed on the meter at all). NYC cabbies can't take trips from EWR at all, which is why the meter tally outside NYC is doubled for trips to EWR.
Trips to EWR are covered under a separate clause, simply because they're the only common out-of-state destination (other out-of-state destinations, IIRC, aren't computed on the meter at all). NYC cabbies can't take trips from EWR at all, which is why the meter tally outside NYC is doubled for trips to EWR.
I believe Newark Airport trips are meter + r/t tolls + $10.
Thanks for the correction.
Then the $10 surcharge is to compensate the cabbie for his return to NYC, which is by law fare-free.
It's destinations in Westchester and Nassau that are 2x distance outside city limits.
Other destinations in NJ are "negotiated" fare, which means the cabby charges you $100 for anywhere in northern NJ.
I appreciate your effort in taking the time to repost your position in a new thread. However, you still only realize half the purpose of AirTrain. As such, I must object to your challenges.
The basis of design for AirTrain, as per the Port Authority's needs, is two-fold: 1) To connect JFK commuters to other transportation points outside Port Authority property, and 2) to circulate airpot passengers within the airport grounds.
Paying respect to only the first point, you give it too much weight in your analysis. In turn, you completely neglect the second need of the Port Authority, as evidenced by the following quote:
"It deserves to be integrated into the subway system, both in track and in price."
You make two assertions: 1) that AirTrain should be integrated into the subway via direct track connections, and 2) that there should be no separate fare.
I'm not going to argue the fare. Is $5 written in stone anyways? Or is that just a SubTalk rumor?
Regardless, your assertion that AirTrain should be integrated into the subway system with a track connection demonstrates your misunderstanding of AirTrain.
Let's assume there is no separate fare.
You place too much weight on the ease of travel for subway users coming directly from Manhattan. How much inconvenience are you willing to put other AirTrain users through just so you can have a direct subway ride to JFK?
Residents living along the Lefferts Boulevard Branch? They can lose their subway for a shuttle bus. After all, "it's only three stops."
Long Island Railroad users? They can take a bus to Jamaica.
Passengers circulating within JFK? They can haul their luggage on standard MTA subway equipment. It'll just go on the seats or something.
The Port Authority? It can accomodate 600 foot long platforms, even when it has already done a study indicating that much train isn't required.
In conclusion, the Port Authroity has conducted a series of ridership studies that established the dual purpose of AirTrain. You object to the lack of a dirct connection vigorously, yet you have offered no ridership numbers to contradict the Port Authority.
The basis of design for AirTrain, as per the Port Authority's needs, is two-fold: 1) To connect JFK commuters to other transportation points outside Port Authority property, and 2) to circulate airpot passengers within the airport grounds.
Paying respect to only the first point, you give it too much weight in your analysis. In turn, you completely neglect the second need of the Port Authority, as evidenced by the following quote:
"It deserves to be integrated into the subway system, both in track and in price."
How does connecting one track to another imply that every train on one track must proceed to the other?
A train service to the airport would clearly not be sufficient to circulate passengers around the airport. Some trains would continue off the airport grounds as A trains; others would only circulate.
I'm not going to argue the fare. Is $5 written in stone anyways? Or is that just a SubTalk rumor?
I'm told it's appeared in newspapers. I don't remember if I've seen it myself.
From a statement on the AirTrain web page, the clear implication is that there will be a charge of some sort for off-airport travel. Even if it's not $5, my objection stands; if 722 miles are available $1.50, there's no justification for any additional charge for 3.3 more miles.
Let's assume there is no separate fare.
Fine. I hope our assumption comes true.
You place too much weight on the ease of travel for subway users coming directly from Manhattan. How much inconvenience are you willing to put other AirTrain users through just so you can have a direct subway ride to JFK?
My basic point is simply that there should be a track connection between the AirTrain Howard Beach leg and the A train. All the rest are details. In particular, my proposed cancellation of the Jamaica leg is simply a cost-saving move, since with a direct A connection I'm not convinced service to Jamaica is necessary. If you think it's indispensable, fine, build it -- that really doesn't affect my basic point one bit.
Residents living along the Lefferts Boulevard Branch? They can lose their subway for a shuttle bus. After all, "it's only three stops."
Is there some fundamental rule that anyone who has subway service must never lose it? If not, I can't understand your objection. It's not like the Lefferts branch sees terribly heavy crowding. Many, many, many more people would be served by direct service to JFK, and a transfer is less of an ordeal for passengers without luggage. Although I'd love to give everyone direct service to wherever they're going, that's impossible, and doesn't it make sense to inconvenience the few for the benefit of the many?
(Bus service might not even be seen as an inconvenience at all. It's more flexible -- the bus could run on a different street, make different stops, run a bit further -- whatever. Traffic isn't a major issue around there, IINM.)
But, if you still don't like bus service to Lefferts, I seem to recall giving a number of other options: shuttle train service to Lefferts, extended C service to Lefferts, shuttle train service to the Rockaways -- and if you don't mind entertaining the option of new technology, splitting trains in half.
And none of this even applies off-peak, when track capacity is easily sufficient to support all three branches of the A.
Long Island Railroad users? They can take a bus to Jamaica.
The vast majority of potential LIRR riders will drive or be driven directly from the airport anyway, regardless of what sort of train service is available to Jamaica. I prefer to spend my money where it will get used.
Still, as I've said -- if you're convinced omitting the Jamaica connection will inconvenience large numbers of passengers, build it. It doesn't conflict with an A connection in any way.
Passengers circulating within JFK? They can haul their luggage on standard MTA subway equipment. It'll just go on the seats or something.
Did I ever suggest that? No, I said that requiring passengers on the A train to put there luggage "on the seats or something" isn't a step down from luggage accomodations on the AirTrain for those passengers since that would only give them accomodations for the last eight minutes, post-transfer, of a much longer ride. I also said that new car acquisitions should include low-key luggage accomodations.
None of this applied to the cars used for airport circulation only. Those can be laid out however is best for airport circulation alone, since no regular commuters will ride those trains.
Not that I think it makes much of a difference. Have you ever ridden airport circulation trains elsewhere? I have -- at Gatwick, O'Hare, and Pittsburgh -- and, if there were luggage accomodations at all, few used them. Most passengers preferred to keep their luggage with them. The R38 is as suited as anything else for this usage. (I wouldn't recommend using the R44, though.)
The Port Authority? It can accomodate 600 foot long platforms, even when it has already done a study indicating that much train isn't required.
I explicitly said otherwise in a recent post! I suggested letting the extra cars dangle out of each station (which is wasteful but no more wasteful than running full-length cars on ends of lines that don't fill them up) or uncoupling and running only half-length trains to the airport.
"The vast majority of potential LIRR riders will drive or be driven directly from the airport anyway, regardless of what sort of
train service is available to Jamaica. I prefer to spend my money where it will get used."
Unsupported assertion, Dave. You have not done any research and have nothing objective with which to back up your opinion. There is no rail option to the airport and we have no experience here with it. Experience in London, Atlanta, Philadelphia, suggests this modality can be popular. But we won't know for sure until service begins and we watch ridership levels for a few months, tweaking headways and fares.
Why do you repeatedly harp on a point I explicitly said was irrelevant?
You want your service to Jamaica? Fine, take it. It's yours. Enjoy.
All I ask for is a track connection at Howard Beach.
What's your opinion of Jarvis International?
TIA,
Arti
Arti, not sure which Jarvis International you mean and in which context.
Simon
Swindon UK
They currently are a member of a consortium (25%) to privatize Estonian Railways. As I understand they are an infrastructure company. My interest is because of a lot of controversy (perhaps corruption surrounding it,) just curious what are they about. Looks like there's a hotel company with the same name (google serch results,) and I dont meant hat.
Arti
The R143's are going to be transfered Tonight right after the ;ast one come in. I got the info. from a Supervisor last night when I saw 8103 come in. He sad that the route will be as follow. 200th street down the Exrpess to 59th street, 59th street over the "D" express 6th ave to switch before W4th street to the local "F". W4th street to Essix Street Cut onto the "J" over the bridge into the middle into East New York Yard. Hope some of you guys can wait to got some pic. of the Transfer as it gose by. It will be after midnight most likey after 1:00am. The truck get to the yard around 11:30pm and it takes about 1 1/2 hours to unload the car off the truck.
Robert
I hope someone gets pictures !!!
Calling the Subtalk Camera Commando Team! Condition Red, Scramble! R143 Bogies spotted in railyard! You are cleared for emergency departure!
(If you are caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions)
I wish I knew it was tonight instead of tomorrow night. Some of my classmates will begin yard posting at both 207 and ENY tonight, and I couls have told them to watch out for it. (I get both yards next week)
Well have fun. I wish I could do it my self, but I would get home to late. I have it watch my kid when my wife leave for work at 6:30am. I would say the best shots shoud be 125st, 59st, 7ave, W4st and Broadway Leftest & the hole "J" line. Someone shoud try to be on the other side and the Bridge to get it coming off the "S" turns.
Robert
THE EXCITEMENT IS KILLING ME !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hopefully they'll park it on the track closest to Bushwick Ave for everyone to see.
I heard Track 7.
Where is that in relationship to Bushwick Avenue ? Next Wednesday I might be able to pass there at about 3:30 PM. If the weather is good (and I pray that it is) where is a good spot to get a pic?
There is no goosd spots. Track 7 is in side the barn. It will be there getting ready the testing and training.
Did any one get shots of the transfer last night/this moring.
Robert
It will be kept inside ENY shop on track #7
Recent additions to the bullets on my site are the following:
(2)
2
(5)
(A)
(B)
(C)
(D)
(E)
(E)
(F)
(F)
(F)
(K)
M
R
and
(R)
The URL is http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/bullets/. Please note that you can't use these bullets directly on your site because TopCities won't allow that. I'll see about getting Dave to UL them here, but I'm not sure about that, though.
Here you go, just add frames.
-Dan
It's IFRAME! A standard Frameset won't work in the body of a post.
And what ever happened to previewing messages before polluting the board with erroneous posts.
For those of you who haven't seen them yet, here they are.
[And what ever happened to previewing messages before polluting the board with erroneous posts]
Some people just don't bother to test what they intend to post. With just plain text that's no problem. But with HTML tags, even the simple ones, you need to click the Preview Message Before Posting button.
The Preview Message Before Posting button is on the left side below the message field.
This message has been previewed before posting to make sure everything works right.
For those of you who haven't seen them yet, here they are.
Copy cat! :-)
A few notes:
There was never a yellow diamond M. What people were seeing was the upside down "W". W is next to N, and since "N" looks the same upside down, the crews would often stop scrolling as soon as they saw it, not realizing that the outside was displaying the next letter upside down.
another idea I had but never got to create was pre-1967 and early post-1967 routes in 1979 color bullets:
Yellow: T QT, 1, 2, 3, 4, NX, EE
Brown: KK, TT, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 14, 15, JJ, QJ, RJ
Orange: BB, KK, MM
And perhaps:
black or gray: 7, 11, 12, 13, 16
Some bullets are in memory of some reroutes I've seen. Yellow Diamond M is one that I actually rode on from 9th St, Brooklyn to Times Square via Broadway Express.
[another idea I had but never got to create was pre-1967 and early post-1967 routes in 1979 color bullets:
Yellow: T QT, 1, 2, 3, 4, NX, EE
Brown: KK, TT, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 14, 15, JJ, QJ, RJ
Orange: BB, KK, MM
And perhaps:
black or gray: 7, 11, 12, 13, 16]
I could do it for ya. :)
A woman jumped in front of a NJT train from the station platform at South Orange yesterday.
brief Star-Ledger story
The engineer saw her jump. More info in Friday's Star-Ledger.
Lost my reply to Motorman Marc in Cyberspace so try again. Unfortunately this is the age of cosmetics; I can relate to how those who loved the SMEE fleet feel about what's coming in now, especially the loss of the railfan window. Chicago did even better...the 6000's and 2000 thru 3l00's had railfan seats too.(now undone by remodelling for OPTO....the 3200's were first cars with no railfan window)
I was one of those wide eyed kids looking out the front window in the early 50's. It helped influence me into what later became a RR career both with NYCT and in Montana.
You may find it interesting that the first IRT subway cars had no railfan windows. First steel ones anyway...I never rode a composite.The 1904 Gibbs cars had sliding doors that shut off the vestibule and a swinging storm door that covered the front so as much as I liked them for their interiors (old IRT's nicest) I hated seeing one at the point of my train...no railfan window for that ride.Could tell when one was coming in the subway..the whole front end was black except for markers...no cheery yellow glow at the window. [I'm sure the composites had a glass storm door window orginally, maybe not, but they also had those doors to shut off the vestibules.] Best wishes from a fellow Motorman.
Hey there Ed,
I knew you would understand. After all, you wrote a whole book about this subject! You expressed your love of the subway in a way that was both technical and 'fan-like.' Your book should be in every railfans' library. The way I look at this, if you have memories-good memories-then what you liked is never really gone. There are many good books (like yours) that are out there nowadays, so that's a help. This website, and the good folks on it that share this interest is also good.
Cheers Ed, the best to you.
And Ed's got a special on "They moved Millions" ... since I get paid once a month, I'm still waiting to collect my "nut" but as soon as I do, I'm planning on getting ME a copy of it too ... hopefully Uncle Ed will be willing to post the addy here so others can come and collect their own copy without it seeming like some shameless advertisement.
Ed? Where can others get a copy of your book? Come on ... don't be shy ... :)
I couldn't have asked for a better post to think about all day. Thanks for the kind comments.
PATH is still the coolest. It has TWO windows, one with a seat! I hope when PATH gets new equipment, they don't go full length. EVERYONE loves that seat. It's the first seat people run to. I have knocked over small children and old ladies to grab that seat! Just kidding. ;)
Market-Frankford subway on SEPTA is even better. There are 2 windows and the seat is facing forward.
"PATH is still the coolest. It has TWO windows, one with a seat! I hope when PATH gets new equipment, they don't go full length. EVERYONE loves that seat. It's the first seat people run to. I have knocked over small children and old ladies to grab that seat! Just kidding. ;)"
So that was YOU who knocked my mother over! Ha-ha, just kidding.
I know what you mean; every weekend my kid begs me to go on PATH. He's been seduced by the low front window and the extremely speedy outdoor run from JSQ to NWK. Why else would anyone WANT to go to New Jersey?! (OK, Jerseyites, let me have it!)
As someone else said, the M4s on the MFL also has two front railfan windows, one with a seat. This seat is even better than the one on PATH; it faces foward directly to the window so you don't have to look sideways.
OK, OK, I surrender. The medium does matter. The following quote:
n physics, the change in direction of a wave passing from one medium to another caused
by its change in speed. For example, waves in deep water travel faster than in shallow; if
an ocean wave approaches a beach obliquely, the part of the wave farther from the beach
will move faster than that closer in, and so the wave will swing around until it moves in a
direction perpendicular to the shoreline. The speed of sound waves is greater in warm air
than in cold; at night, air is cooled at the surface of a lake, and any sound that travels
upward is refracted down by the higher layers of air that still remain warm. Thus, sounds,
such as voices and music, can be heard much farther across water at night than in the
daytime.
The electromagnetic waves constituting light are refracted when crossing the boundary
from one transparent medium to another because of their change in speed. A straight stick
appears bent when partly immersed in water and viewed at an angle to the surface other
than 90. A ray of light of one wavelength, or colour (different wavelengths appear as
different colours to the human eye), in passing from air to glass is refracted, or bent, by an
amount that depends on its speed in air and glass, the two speeds depending on the
wavelength. A ray of sunlight is composed of many wavelengths that in combination
appear to be colourless; upon entering a glass prism, the different refractions of the
various wavelengths spread them apart as in a rainbow.
TThe above was posted from Encyclopedia Britannica (britannica.com), under "Refraction."
Damn! I just missed the beatings. Heh. Your turn in the barrel then. I did mine earlier for blasheming Kawasaki Heavy Industries. :)
Bustini bustini ... now go in peace, my son. Heh.
Step livety, Watch the closing doors, please ... bing bong!
I looked up refraction myself to check on my own logic and found out I was wrong.
Of course, the magnitude of the speed of light is such that in practical terms, it doesn't matter much.
Newton's Laws, if I recall correctly, hold in the "macro" sense but now we see that Einstein added a "correction factor", affecting the precision of results.
OK ... then the beatings shall now commence. :)
Einstein had a great grasp ... he predicted a lot of things that have come to pass including a physics reality that is shared between nuclear detonations and klystron tubes (hint: UHF TV stations use Klystrons in the transmitter to give you FOX in most ADI's) ... that of time curvature ... really seriously WEIRD things in the vicinity of nuclear explosions, particularly dialation of time, space and a number of other oddities that just don't fit the science. I think that "Trinity" was a major factor in Albert's "ahem. Whoops." there ...
Do you know if we've detected any gravity waves yet? I know there are detectors in the ground in the US and in Japan...
I thought it was a routine event ... and since we're (ahem) a runaway on this topic, I'm sure you know about the (ahem) "gravity hole" off Peru in the Pacific that were it not for routine releases of gasjets on geostationary satellites, would cause them to all lump up at the same position in space with respect to the earth?
There's some things that inquiring mimes has better NOT no. :)
Fig Newton's Laws = You just can't eat one....
BMTman
How true. Einstein ate all of them..
Nice come back Ron ... you guys were TRYING to have a serious discussion. Well, so much for solving the problems of the Universe.
Mr t__:^)
Fudd's theorem ... "if you push something hard enough, it will fall over." Teslicle's devium to Fudd's theoem, "it goes in, it MUST come out." Yep, we're up to date on the latest rocket science. :)
Been listening to those old Firesign Theater records, I see.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, musta been all those days doing radio ... corrupted me beyond salvation which is why I live upstate now. Now, Mr. Smartypants ... why does the porridge bird lay his egg in the air? (Proctor and Bergman *did* answer this one in "Big Mystery Jokebook) ...
Crow is a dish best served cold (a little Bar-B-Que sauce ain't a bad idea).
Actually, it probably tastes like chicken.....;-)
BMTman
Want some? There's about 600 crows on the property here - nobody's gonna miss a few. And yes, they do taste like chicken which is why my favorite dish is Wild Turkey (yes, we've got several flocks of those here too) and it happens to be turkey season here at the moment though I prefer my Wild Turkey on the rocks or with Cola ... but then, that's me. :)
I preferred the sound of those trigger caps on the oldtimers myself.:-)
Yeah, if you had a bad day you could beat them up and get it out of your system. :)
And for the curious, here are the equations for modeling refraction and speed of light in a medium:
n is called the index of refraction
A is the angle of refraction
Say n1 is air (its n-value is esstienally zero) and n2 is the index of refraction of the medium you want to find what the speed of light is in it. The equation to find n2, if you measure the angles experimentally, is:
n1 sin A1=n2 sin A2
You then plug n2 into this equation and solve for v:
n2=V/C
Where c is the speed of light and v is the new speed of light.
The smart people out there will see that n can never be greater than 1. You know why?
Sorry to bore every one with all this Physics, but I just finished taking my Physics 2 final exam about 2 hours ago, and stuff like this was on it. I thought I'd let everyone suffer the same way I did :)
Say n1 is air (its n-value is esstienally zero)
That should say:
Say n1 is air (its n-value is esstienally one)
Oy! I don't even remember what a "sin" is!
I expect thay'll be taking back my high school diploma now.
:-) Andrew
I'm finally finished with all my school work for this semester and here I am explaining school stuff to people!!
Sine(sin), along with cosine(cos), tangent(tan), and three other trigonometric functions are ratios for finding the lengths of the sides of a triangle. In short, sin means opposite over hypotonuese. That's all I can explain.
For the calculus folks here, the derivative of y=sin(x) is dy/dx=cos(x), and the integral of dy=sin(x) dx is y=-cos(x) And no, I'm not explaining those to anyone!
An integral is "thearea underthe curve."
Integration sequence: Line --->circle---->sphere
Taught appropriately, math is poetry. It is beautiful.
Oh dear, mixed messages again!
Before anyone flames, I have read all the posts!
1. Waves travelling in water of different depths travel at different speeds due to friction (the result of which is that waves break in shallow water). I dont know how this equates with change in medium.
2. Waves are refracted when passing from a medium of one density to another. That is why the stick is bent. RonInBayside gave us the math, but failed to mention that this is Snells law:
Sin i
----- = Refractive Index
Sin r
where i = Angle of Incidence, r = Angle of Refraction.
Useless unless you are building a telescope.
The only other way I could suggest you observe this is by going underwater and looking up. Up to a certain point, you see a distorted view of the world above. After that, the water surface looks like a mirror, due to a phenomenon called total internal reflection, which is what happens when the light ray would be refracted more than 90 degrees.
Different wavelengths are refracted differently, hence a prism gives you a rainbow.
So what does this have to do with subways?!
John.
PS: I last looked at a physics textbook 25 years ago!
Hey! You're making me look bad here! I don't even remember what a sin and cosin are!
Here's what I do remember:
Momentum=mass*velocity--vector quantity (magnitude AND direction)
work=force*distance--scalar quantity (magnitude only)
energy=mass*speed of light squared
six trillion miles=approximately one light year
eight hundred yers=the time it takes a (J) train to get from Chambers Street to Jamaica Center, running express AND skip stop.
(Is it relavant now?)
;-) Andrew
"Useless unless you are building a telescope."
Or want to learn something because it's fun. Thanks for teaching.
Your equation assumes that the angle of incidence is in air or a vacuum, my equation is the more general version that can be used for any two mediums. But you're right it is Snell's law.
Any Nostalgia Trains scheduled yet? I rememer the one the ERA had where we took a Low-V through almost the entire IRT. Are there any plans to do that one again?
The TA museum only does the Southern Division which gets played out after awhile.
I believe the Lo-Vs need some mechanical work. The D Types went out twice last year (a two car set of six sections). The 3rd set is stuffed & mounted at the TA Museum.
BTW, I'm still hoping that the Standards (3) get finished soon. I think the last time they were out was in the 80s.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: You or someone else has got to let me know personally when the D's are going to run again. I want to ride on a Triplex like you cannot imagine. I keep hearing of these things after the fact. I don't want to miss out again if I can. And who schedules which cars are going out on fan trips anyway?
fred... according to a letter i received from the transit museum 2 days ago, the triplexes are scheduled to run as the nostalgia train on june 17, july 15, and july 29... they will go to the transit museum and then out to the rockaways...
heypaul: Good to hear from you. I wondered why you weren't on line for awhile. I will see if I can wrangle my way to New York for one of those jaunts. I wonder why the Triplexes are going to the Rockaways. It would seem more realistic to run them on the Brighton or Sea Beach lines since that was where they ran when they dominated the NYC Subway with their elegence, grace, and yet unbridled power.
They wanted to do something completely different ....
Mr t__:^)
when are they going to run them. I have been off for a while
Heypaul answered that on May 3rd on this thread, but just in case you missed it ... June 17, July 15, and July 29. Now this is the "scheduled" dates according to another poster. The new Museum brochure is just about to be released, then "members" will get first crack at a ride. There will be a date when the general public can sign up, call on or about that date & you'll probally get one.
I'll probally pass it up since I just did one in the Fall, now if the 4 car train of Lo-Vs was coming out I would be right there in line. We all know where the 5th car is ... doing just fine thank you.
Mr t__:^)
It's...
Perhaps because from Court St that is the easiest interesting place to go.
I guess I will have to come up one of those weekends
How can I get on a Nostalgia Train? Doesn't one have to be a member of the Transit Museum to go? Can I go if I'm not?
Dan
the 3 nostalgia train trips have not been officially announced yet in the summer 2001 bulletin... members of the museum are given first crack at tickets to scheduled events, but then non members can get tickets... once the trip is officially announced and non members can order tickets, you shouldn't have trouble getting a ticket... if you wait till right before the trip, you might be closed out...
this july 4th, there will also be the 25th anniversary of the transit museum and they will be having the 9th annual bus festival on that day by the transit museum...
Dan, if you love the old stuff you'll realy enjoy a ride on the D Types. My trip last Fall was great. Our operator got a clear track going out to Coney Island & let the old girls strut their stuff.
Mr t__:^)
I hear that and I get so damn envious. I have to ride a D-Triplex out to Coney Island one of these days. I have just got to be in town when such a trip takes place. Put a #4 on a Triplex, run it on the Seaa Beach line and walla!!!!!! It is 1949 all over again and I'm a kid.
Sending them out to the Rockaway flats is not a bad idea at all. About three miles of straight outdoor track. I wonder what speed they can reach out there.
Fred, I can SEE the big grin on your face ! The set of cars is in realy fine shape & mechanically they don't have to limp along, so the ride is very nice too.
Mr t__:^)
can you order a seat by mail if you live out of town ?? ............etc... who do you contact ???
Contact the museum Salaam. They would be happy to sell you one. I should be getting mine in the coming weeks, planning to be on the July 15 run. If my memory serves me correctly, last year I spoke with a lady named Luz (as in Spanish for "Lamp"). The tix were $20.00 each, give or take.
It was a fine trip. Eighty percent of the fun was watching the puzzled look on the faces of the people on the platform seeing our train rumbling past them.
This year, however, I will bring a bag of those foam earplugs. No offense, but not since the pre-GOH R-32s on the BMT Broadway line did I hear such a large amount of track noise amplified by the tunnels and due to the open windows.
do you suggest i should join the museum ?/ that would be fine i would be glad to do it also do they send you the information
as to the museum trains as well as when the D triplexes run ( they really looked pretty in the coney island tour ) !! WOW !!!
woooooopppppppeeeeeee!!! the older subway cars were a bit louder with the larger windows that opened up wide !!!
I remember how you could really FEEL the whole experence almost like being on a FLAT roller-coaster !!!!
You just about hit the nail on the head with that "flat roller coaster" description.
You don't have to join the Museum in order to get word of the events, but I am sure the Museum would appreciate your contribution.
Anyway, I was poking around the website of the MTA and came up with this addy http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/tours.htm that gives a listing of tours on offer with the Museum. As of this posting, it hasn't been updated. You may want to check daily, as it seems they are on the cusp of a new edition.
Also, if Dave P. spots something of the Museum's that would appear interesting to us, he posts it in UPCOMING EVENTS on this website. Dave also lists events not associated with the Museum, such as the March of Dimes Redbird trip last year.
They'll have it signed up as a 4 just for you.:-)
There was a trip on the Eastern Division to Canarsie in 1997, IIRC ...
--Mark
Does anybody have an informed idea about what portion of the projected 18 billion dollar cost of the new line might be satisfied by new fares collected? (I suppose that answer is that fares will not even pay operating costs, but I am curious if there are actual studies out there somewhere.)
The farebox does not (at least in North America) cover the operating cost of any mass transit system. So the quick answer is nothing!
Question - if you were to do a true cost/benefit analysis, and if you counted the savings from reduced congestion, would there be a positive return? After all, these sytems are there not to make money, but to allow the city to survive! After all, we don't expect the army or the fire department to make a profit.
"The farebox does not (at least in North America) cover the operating cost of any mass transit system. So the quick answer is
nothing! "
False statement in New York. The subway actually breaks even. The farebox covers operating expenses (but not capital funding). Some bus routes make money, but overall the buses lose money (lines like the Q79 lose a lot of money). Larry Littlefield's post is an excellent analysis, though he is much more pessimistic than I am regarding the subway's construction chances.
(The farebox covers operating expenses (but not capital funding). Some bus routes make money, but overall the buses lose money)
The subway was making money a couple of years ago, but has since fallen into the hole. I, for one, think that's a bad thing. I'd rather see the fare increased at the rate of inflation -- or the union contract -- than see the corner cutting and ledgerdemain we are starting to see. I'm in favor of jacking up the peak period fare and the weekly/monthly ticket right now.
That still doesn't get you the Second Avenue. Here's a sad thought. The MTA capital plan includes lots of what I call normal replacement. How can we borrow $10 billion, and reborrow another $10 billion, for a few years of normal replacement? Will we borrow another $20 billion in 2004?
Let say that during the good times the state government provided the MTA with cash for normal replacement during the good times. Then the $20 billion the MTA is already borrowing would have been more than enough for the LIRR to GCT, the Second Avenue Subway, and a couple of other real improvements as well. They've fleeced us, and now I'm afraid the bill will come due.
The subway was making money a couple of years ago, but has since fallen into the hole. I, for one, think that's a bad thing. I'd rather see the fare increased at the rate of inflation -- or the union contract -- than see the corner cutting and ledgerdemain we are starting to see. I'm in favor of jacking up the peak period fare and the weekly/monthly ticket right now.
Let say that during the good times the state government provided the MTA with cash for normal replacement during the good times. Then the $20 billion the MTA is already borrowing would have been more than enough for the LIRR to GCT, the Second Avenue Subway, and a couple of other real improvements as well.
Seems to me that there are two issues here. You can't look at the revenue side in isolation and ignore costs. It sounds as if NYCT is doing a fairly poor job controlling costs, what with the subway now having reverted to an operating deficit even as ridership has increased. Until NYCT management can get a better grip on costs, they shouldn't be complaining too loudly about the lack of adequate state funding.
My bet is that those "costs" are all those shiny new cars and signals. Are we suggesting that we should stop doing that? (this cost cutting solution was applied in the late 60's and early 70's in case all the war stories of years past have been missed) ...
(Seems to me that there are two issues here. You can't look at the revenue side in isolation and ignore costs. It sounds as if NYCT is doing a fairly poor job controlling costs, what with the subway now
having reverted to an operating deficit even as ridership has increased.)
They gave raises to the employees -- that's a cost. In March 1997, the average NYC transit employee earned four percent more than the average public transit employee in the U.S.; the average private sector employee in Downstate NY (excluding the highly paid fianance industry workers in NYC) earned 29 percent more. So transit workers aren't overpaid, although those 11 average sick days taken per year look bad.
More productivity? Metrocard will lead to fewer station agents instead of more booth clerks. CBTC could lead to OPTO, if the politics fly. The new cars will presumably require less maintenace than the old, as will the new signals. But these are big, long term changes. Plus the TA has been lucky -- more off peak riders, where there is room -- means you don't have to add service as fast as passengers.
These are all big, slow, long term things. No turning around on a dime. So when wages rise -- and not unreasonably -- costs rise.
The biggest cost is debt service. You now have debt service paid for with operating funds (7 percent of the operating budget), while state capital funding has been cut off and operating funding has increased to "save the fare." What's up with that?
The farebox does not (at least in North America) cover the operating cost of any mass transit system
False. The Seattle monorail definitely recoups its operating costs at the farebox. And I've heard rumors that the city actually makes money off it!
Too bad the city government wants to kill the monorail and install light rail.
>>> The Seattle monorail definitely recoups its operating costs at the farebox. <<<
Unfortunately the Seattle monorail is not a transit system. In Seattle you would have to look at all modes of public transportation to determine system profitability. Many transit systems can point to one portion of the system that is profitable, but not the overall system.
Tom
"Unfortunately the Seattle monorail is not a transit system. In Seattle you would have to look at all modes of public
transportation to determine system profitability. Many transit systems can point to one portion of the system that is profitable,
but not the overall system."
Excellent point, particularly with bus-dependent systems where, often a few routes make money and subsidize the many lines which run a deficit (look at Los Angeles, for example).
None. Because the line will never be built.
Good job, now you've given them something else to study about. Now it will take 15 years beyond eternity (up from the previous 5 years before eternity) for the line to be built.
(Does anybody have an informed idea about what portion of the projected 18 billion dollar cost of the new line might be satisfied by new fares collected?)
Subway fares will be used to build the LIRR to GCT, under a complex arrangement wherein old separate TA and LIRR debt is re-borrowed, and backed by the subway fare, some of which is now used for debt service even as other money subsidized operating expenses.
The Second Avenue line will not be built. If it was built, however, and areas served by it (and the over-croweded Lex line) were upzoned, the taxes paid by the new building occupants would pay for the line many times over.
Dont you think that Mayor Guilliani was the best hope for something like this? I dont really like the man but he has been the only mayor that can do something because he wants to. None of these other guys has even mentioned a new subway line. They really havent mentioned anything.
(Dont you think that Mayor Guilliani was the best hope for something like this? I dont really like the man but he has been the only mayor that can do something because he wants to.)
I know from experience -- aside from stadiums, Giuliani really didn't understand or care about infrastructure, education, etc. And he's such an egotist that the only things he accomplished are things he personally understood.
What is really necessary is a Giulaini-like guy who cares about infrastructure. And a Robert Moses-like guy who cares about transit working for him.
We absolutely need a Robert Moses-type of person to work on infrastructure to the exclusion of highways! Moses hated mass transit in any form and did whatever he could to destroy NY's subways and commuter rail systems (and nearly succeeded).
I always thought banks are lead by tellers :-)
Arti
Iwas just wondering what would i do with a lottery winnings of say thirty million dollars... i would get things like pickup trucks,cars a house etc but i would also give money to the museums to fix up and extend the lines,to buy cars and right of ways,and give the fire dept's the heat sensing system to find victims in smoke filled houses...and manny more things like this...what would you do with thirty million.....?
Well, first, $30m would be spread over 20 years, right? Then, what 20% gone to tax. So, what, $1.2m a year to spend? Me, I have debts, including paying off my house. 2 kids about to hit college. In fact, I'd like to go back to college too. Then there's a bunch of family I'd like to help.
But if the real question is how would we like to help public-oriented services and institutions provided we had that kind of money ...
I'd first focus on finding homes for abandoned kids in the juvenile custody systems. My wife & I have already talked over this fantasy. We'd take some in ourselves. Then, I dunno. Either find ways to underwrite other adoptions, or contribute to public or private services already in place. That could easily take up all the money.
Then there's homeless adults. Some are nuts and addicts who need mandatory institutionalizatioin and could not otherwise be helped, but plenty, plenty others could turn their lives around with an infusion of a few thousand bucks.
Sorry, but money for museums of any kind don't come anywhere close on my list. Money for buying rescue equipment? Yeah, I can see that.
If you won the lottery you shoud by yourself a train car like the R-32's
I'd buy a bar, have a few drinks, and figure out what I'd do as I went along.
E_DOG
I don't have your e-mail address.
You site isn't working and I'm trying to get a hold of the R-142 Subway Car Addition you made for the Bahn Train Simulator. Can you help me out.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
tlogan@transitalk.com
I don't know what V3 is up to, but if you try http://transfer.to/rmmarrero/, you won't get it to work. The current alternate URL is:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com.
I was pleased to ride the Newark City Subway before 8 a.m. today. I then took notes at Franklin Avenue to observe peak hour headway, waiting for #17 to return. Sixteen cars were in service: 17, 5, 9, 22, 28, 10, 26, 13, 20, 15, 4, 2, 19, 21, 12, 23. Departures were close to every 2 minutes, with the same car departing again 32 minutes later. Great work!
I recall riding double-ended cars on that route before the PCC's arrived, and that single-ended cars were used to Caldwell and West Orange, if my memory is correct. When the new service begins and the operator has to move to a different cab every 16 minutes, I wonder whether NJT will maintain the 2-minute headway so consistently. Headway maintenance may have been one reason for Brooklyn's use of single-ended streetcars on the routes with the most traffic (Flatbush Ave., etc.).
Please explain:
When the new service begins and the operator has to move to a different cab every 16 minutes, I wonder whether NJT will maintain the 2-minute headway so consistently
I dont know the track layout of the Newark subway. I assume (from the post) that the PCC cars are single-ended, and the new cars will be double-ended. From one trip down to the bowels of Newark station, it appears that there is a loop so that cars dont have to be turned on a turntable at the end of the run.
It looks like this could be a debate on operators moving to the other end of the car vs turning the car but I would very much like more information.
Thanks,
John.
Yes, the new cars are double-ended, vs. the single-ended PCC cars, and yes, there is a turning loop in Newark Penn. I don't know whether or not the turning loop will continue to be used with the new cars; I've heard that it will not be because of clearance issues, but that's simply hearsay and not backed by any hard evidence that I'm aware of.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Will the station remain on the side platforms or will they use an island platform in the current maintenance facility in the middle of Penn?
I belive (this is an educated guess) that they will not use the loop at Newark. Since brand new maintenance facilities have been built and connected (with a new stop eliminating the loop at the other end from Newark) there will no longer be a large maintenance shop at Newark.
Double ended cars, they could use the straight in center tracks and get rid of excessive ware on the wheels as they go around the loop. I wonder how they handled the ware on the PCC's since booth loops were left handed.
This just leaves the saftey question of pax crossing tracks to the center but they do it on HBLR so...
There are platforms with stairways by the center tracks as well, which were used during the time when multiple routes served the subway. All they'd have to do would be remove the maintenance equipment stored there, some minor repairs, and some major cleaning, and they could use those platforms instead or in addition.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are two loop tracks, one at each end of the line, though the one at the Franklin Av. end was installed for the single-ended PCC cars.
Here's a map.
The LRVs will NOT be terminating at Branch Brook Park (that's what it's called now), the question is whether there will be a loop at the new terminal: Grove St/Bloomfield.
I was lucky enough to get a brief trip through Newark Penn Station by NJT personnel (a very accomodating group) and here's what they told me.
- Penn station will indeed lose the maintenance to the new carbarn and the new cars will use all four tracks and crossovers to turnback and not the loops
- The Franklin loop is done for once the new cars come in - but there is a cross over at Branch Brook Park (formerly Franklin & Heller Parkway).
- As plans stand now every second car will turn back at Branch Brook Park with the others going the full way to the new terminus beside the new carbarn (already constructed) about 3/4 mile away.
They didn't say anything about the new headways but there are going to be fewer KS cars than PCCs (I can't recall exact numbers), each 90' instead of 47' so it's safe to say that at least the peak headways will be longer.
Any provision being made for the pie-in-the-sky plans of going to Paterson, Newark Airport, or Jersey City (connect to HBLR)
Take the SubTalk Live Survey. Poll closes at 9 PM tonight!
First, a proposed silver line to Dulles. The trains have a metal sign for the front reading WHITE which was the proposed Dulles line. (Read further for #2)
Tysons Trains A Step Closer
(Washington) -- The Metro board has decided on a plan to bring rapid bus service, and eventually a rail line, through Tysons Corner.
Board members Thursday agreed to study the environmental impact of a Silver Line that would bring passengers from the Ashburn area and the Dulles Toll Road to the West Falls Church Metro station.
The service would start with bus lines by 2003 and hopefully open to rail service by 2006.
A final impact statement is expected next month, and a public hearing would then be scheduled.
Still, board members are concerned about what it'll mean to add another 75,000 passengers to the existing Orange Line system.
Then, we have something on overcrowding and 8 car trains:
Metro Overcrowding: It'll Get Worse
(Washington - AP) - There is no relief in sight for commuters who pack themselves into crowded rail cars each day.
Metrorail use is growing faster than expected, according to a Metro study released Thursday. Staff members are examining when the system will reach maximum capacity and what to do about it.
The study, presented to the Metro board's planning and development committee, shows 700,000 passengers a day use 29 core stations downtown. Planners estimate passenger volume will grow 103% by 2025.
Metro General Manager Richard White warned board members that by 2010 the busy Orange and Blue lines will have to run eight-car trains, up from the four- to six-car trains used now. He expects the Red Line will follow soon after.
Metro board member Chris Zimmerman told White that many commuters would probably like to see eight-car trains now. White agreed that the bigger trains carrying up to 1,000 passengers should be phased in well before 2010. At the moment, however, Metro lacks the rail cars. But even that will not be enough.
"By 2015, we will need some new line capacity that doesn't exist yet," White said.
The study also looked at how nine of the busiest stations will hold up to increased passenger traffic on the escalators and platforms. During rush hour, Farragut West, which handles both Orange and Blue line traffic, is already seriously congested at its entrance escalators and mezzanine platform. Projections show Farragut West and Union Station will be the most seriously congested at all platforms, entrances and exits by 2025.
Staff said the capacity study includes estimates based on existing expansion projects, including a Silver Line that would bring about 75,000 passengers a day from the Dulles Toll Road corridor, through Tysons Corner to the West Falls Church station.
Staff looked at several routes, and recommended one that would loop passengers from Route 7 and Spring Hill Road to an area on Route 123 just east of the Beltway.
The service is expected to start with bus lines by 2003, after a special bus lane is built to help speed the buses through traffic. Metro hopes to begin rail service by 2006.
The board decided to drop a study to bring service through Reston Town Center, citing environmental concerns.
Zimmerman repeatedly questioned what a new Silver Line would do to existing Orange Line stations, which he said are already near capacity. A final environmental impact report is expected next month, and public hearings will be scheduled.
You, Ken and I discussed about the overcrowding situation, and for the short term (10-20 years), I still like my plan.
According to the article, station crowding is the biggest issue. What WMATA needs to begin planning on ordering cars with 4 wide doors per side and more bench seats. This way, 8 car trains can enter a station, move people in and out of the trains as quickly as possible and leave a station in a minimal amount of time. Do you know what the headways are on the Blue/Orange line during rush hour right now? It should be possible for them to run 2 minute headways. MARTA does it occasionally during the week.
In the long term (40+ years), a center express track may be needed. This would incredibly expensive to do, but nessasary. Maybe tunneling under the existing tunnels and putting one track, with a provision for another tunnel/track beside it is the answer.
It is heartening to see the 'new systems' of the seventies begin to confront their deliberate design deficencies. BART proudly denied it was a 'subway' and tried to market itself as an upscale suburban service with carpets, NO standee hand holds, and no overnight service. Of course, if that low ridership had continued, there would be no need for more cars or calls from riders for better service patterns.
Meanwhile at rush hour, BART and Metro are standee sardine packed despite their outrageous fare structures. To me this ridership is the ultimate vindication of IND so-called 'overbuilt' systems which as we all have read is jammed on the QB line(the one line essentially not built merely to recapture...)
WMATA and BART's success are great news. Mass transit really works, and works well, and hopefully transit funding will gain in political popularity.
I remember this.
The trains carry a sign reading WHITE for the front end rear of the train. I was surprised to read they want this to be the silver line. Clearly, this will use the pier at West Falls Church (I have a photo of it I need to scan).
The next cars they order need to have their passenger cabin redone in some way. Maybe 4 doors and fewer seats but no benches. Instead of two seats facing inward, make it three or maybe four but leave everything else the same.
In the meantime, WMATA should encourage operators to "break down" the cabs to allow for more room.
As for the station crowding, that is a mess. I will be at Union Station at the tail end of rush hour next week so I will note the crowding situation.
A solution for crowding at Metro Center would be to rebuild the heavily used escalators to go in the opposite direction so that the bottoms don't face each other. Then all the lazy Washingtonians would wind up on the ends of the platform, not the center. Remember, a Washingtonian will plant themselves wherever the escalator leaves them until the train comes. If they do move, they won't move much more than a car length.
>In the meantime, WMATA should encourage operators to "break down" the cabs to allow for more room.
How are they going to have OPTO and do that ?
The intermediate cabs are already broken down.
They need to run 8 cars trains, and they need to fix their damned OoO escalators and elevators.
A friend of mine who lives in Chicago was wondering the purpose of the blue light on the side of the train. The lights are in a vertical string of three, just under the unit number, as shown here. Look on the left side of that photo to see what I mean. I suggested they are connected to the end doors or the red ball.
What is the blue light for (as well as the other two lights?
Thanks, in advance.
I asked the same question a couple months ago. Let's see if I can remmeber what the answer is:
AMBER: The train has stopped and it's safe to open the doors.
RED: The doors are open
BLUE: A circuit breaker on the car has been tripped.
IIRC, I also remember seeing a lunar white light on each of the 3200-series cars. I have no clue what that indicates.
Any other Chicago SubTalkers who can confirm these lights and/or provide more info?
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's fairly obvious the 7 line has the weakest A/C. Of course the oily Steinway tubes don't help the situation either.
You're operating a 7 express train to Flushing and the train is partially crowded. You must have the cab door open, which blocks the front window but face it you need air. So you stop at Junction and a mystical girl looking nice in her sundress comes on and moves near the window. What should you do?
A: Close the cab door and sweat it out so she can look out the window
B: After Junction wrap it, taking the curve just before the flyover fast so the mystical girl falls into the cab (and on you)
C: Operate slow and tell the mystical girl she looks beautiful
D: Ignore
Clue:the correct answer bypasses Dekalb
What haircolor does she have?
Mystical black.
How about E? Get a life.
E. I know I am not getting anywhere with her and I don't have some wierd Asian fetish so I wouldn't think twice about it.
OR
F. I'm married, I shouldn't be doing things like that. (I'm not, but I'm not a TO either).
So has any transit worker ever met anybody while on duty? Or this just doesn't happen in NYC?
OMGI dont even know where to start with this one!
E: You havent noticed because you are either (a) a female train operator or (b) a gay male train operator
F: You have too much professionalism to pay attention.
Before I get flamed, I apologize in advance.
I hope that in any case F is the correct answer.
If an answer involves DeKalb and you started on the 7, you have many problems as a TO, and involvement with the girl who got on the train is the least of them!
The B train skips Dekalb. B is the correct answer.
Wrap it up and burn the slow orders!
Once upon a time when I was a fearless Army Warrant Office Aviator I always invited the woman to fly in the co pilots seat when I was solo. Would kick the crew chief back to his normanl position.
The ladies loved taking the controls.
I use Bigdaddy as that was our unit call sign in Viet Nam and 973 was the tail number of the phototype Otter the Army purchased.
It was Old Slow and somewhat reliable.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
PS I see some one else using that phrase
I like that "burn the slow orders" phrase!
Speaking of burning, it's so, so hot here in Sea Cliff. I tell ya if you don't like hot weather don't move here. It's still around 80 out there, but meanwhile places on Long Island like Mineola, Bellmore, and Farmingdale are 65-70.
I really think most people are unaware just how much hotter it is here in the "hotbox" of Long Island.
I remember getting off the train LAST SUMMER from Sea Cliff to Jamaica and it felt much cooler in JAMAICA!!!
Quite the MYSTICAL puzzler... :>
If this is a romance novel or adolescent fantasy, then the correct answer is "invite her into the cab with you, who cares about regulations"
A.
BMTJeff
Item one hope the beakies or a supervisor don't find the cab door wide open..think we were allowed 4" IIRC. Item two if your luck runs anything like mine did over 90% of the time everytime some pretty chick was around some GUY had to plant his entire body over my meager 4" cab door opening and there went my view of the girl.
Oh well, that wasnt what they paid me for and maybe its lucky or my career might not have lasted as long! Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. Might have spared me a few nasty comments...no gals could deliver them better than the Noo Yawk ones.
Well it's off to New York for a few days to spend some time with the folks. Aside from a night at The Shark (a bar catering to Buppies, middle class African-Americans)I will be spending some time riding my beloved Brooklyn Broadway El. It, along with Chicago's Douglas L, is one of my two favorite elevateds in the world. I don't plan on taking any pictures but I will stop at Viveros'(between Myrtle and Flushing Avenues on Broadway), that chicken place which sells live poultry. Fresh fowl anyone?
E_DOG
Thats my favorite too!! was riding it last weekend they were doing some track work and saw some slant L line trains running between Broadway and Eastern Parkway, looks like they are doing some Rehab work on some of the stations-particarly heading towards Manhattan, The S curve around Cypress Hills is cool also.Its an old Fashion EL in the 21 century sort of like riding the ELs of yesteryear.Hope it stays around for many years.
I do too. If they ever try to shut it down I'll probably chain myself to the tracks.
E_DOG
NYS&W wants to install a grade crossing in North Bergen to take some trucks off the street; N Bergen copped a NIMBY attitude. NYS&W insists they wouldn't block the street for more than a couple minutes a couple times a day, and not at rush hour. They threatened refuse to grant ROW to HBLR for extension if they don't get their crossing. Township officials stalked out of a meeting with DOT, NJT (HBLR), et al.
Jersey Journal story
Could you do us a favor and not forget to include antacids and barfbags in your posts when you include links to these kinds of stories? Oh, and post the NIMBYs address so I can write it on the barf bag after I fill it, and mail it to them.
WAL--LY, WAL--LY, WAL--LY, GO WALLY, Show those NIMBY IDIOTS. Foolish NIMBY mortgage slaves need to lighten up. They will have NO HBLR extension unless they play ball, Serves them right.
WAL--LY, WAL--LY, WAL--LY, GO WALLY, Show those NIMBY IDIOTS. Foolish NIMBY mortgage slaves need to lighten up. They will have NO HBLR extension unless they play ball, Serves them right.
I'm sure that there are many people in North Bergen who have no objection at all to the Susie Q grade crossing and who also would like the HBLR to serve their community. They will be the losers if this petty squabble isn't settled.
NIMBYs are most often a few loudmouths who appoint themselves overseers of the community.
How about
NIMBY =
Non
Informed
Megalomaniac
BullY
If you read the whole article carefully, its even worse.
NYS&W uses Location A as a transfer point to move paper from rail to trucks to deliver it to its customers warehouse.
NYS&W wants to be able to build a siding next to the warehouse, so it doesnt have to truck the paper. Building the siding means building the grade crossing.
HBLRs Phase III extension needs Location A as a Right of Way.
North Bergen says no to the grade crossing.
NYS&W says (quite reasonably IMHO) then we need to continue to use Location A for the transfer
I wasnt at the meeting, so I dont know how the various stages of this negotiation were phrased, but I can completely understand a business saying I need to continue to serve my customer! Thats how a business stays a business!
John.
Good post.
Can we give the politicians the benefit of the doubt by judging them too stupid to understand John's logic?
It's understandable that local polits don't want grade crossings. They are bad news. But it looks like these guys got so focused on "no grade crossings" that they refused to listen to why NYSW needs one.
First 2 of 10, to be run in two sets of five.
Trains Magazine News Wire story and photo.
The poll is closed and the following has been decided on.
Chats will start at 7:30 PM (ET) on Saturdays and will be held weekly. The weekly chats will start on a date to be announced at least 3 days prior. Chats will continue as long as there are people in the room. There will be NO chat on Saturday, May 5. Chats may be held either additional days or less often based on the popularity of the first few chats.
SubTalk Live is meant to enrich the SubTalk/BusTalk experience by having a live conversation in addition to the "delayed chat" on the message board. So that all may enjoy their chatting experience, the following policies will be in effect in the SubTalk Live chatroom at ALL times:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
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4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be kicked out of the chatroom.
In short, use common sense.
Stay tuned for an announcement about the commencement of chats. This will be posted on SubTalk and BusTalk.
Also, those of you have used IRC clients please note, the ROOM HAS MOVED.
Connect to any server on the DALnet network (use irc.dal.net for a random server). and use room #subtalklive.
Web chat users need not mind, the settings have been changed for you.
Coming soon: Cookies to keep your nickname so you won't have to enter it every time. I just need to get myself a PERL cookie writing and reading script. :-)
Would you guys help me out? Out of curiosity, I'm taking a poll for the best subway line in NY. Please go to Train Buff Headquarters to vote. Thanks!
I see The Sea Beach has no votes/ Where are you Fred?
While walking back from lunch with a client today, we decided to walk on 4th Ave (Brooklyn) since 5th Ave is torn up around Union Street due to the installation of new water mains.
We passed Bathhouse #4 (f/k/a The Lyceum Baths) and noticed that there was a sign advertising coffee and soda and pastries. The building has been converted to a community theater / comedy club.
This is the building that has SEPTA PCC 2739 on the lot.
We went inside and were greeted by two guys who run the place. One was Eric Richmond. When he said his name, I asked him if he was the one who owns the car. He said yes. I mentioned that I thought he bought 5 PCC's. He said that it was seven and that 6 are still stored in Philly. Can't find space in Brooklyn for them.
Appartently he wants to use the PCC for seating when they have outdoor events. Has no plans to bring it inside the building.
It appears that some of the glass in the PCC has been replaced but it doesn't have any poles on the roof. Perhaps they've been removed to prevent vandalism. He is very much aware of #1001 up at Branford.
He has a website for the club (www.gowanus.com) but it has nothing about the PCC.
The building needs a lot of masonry work and it appears that Eric and Co. are trying to get this idea going on a shoe-string budget. I wish him a lot of luck. It's good to see an abandoned building spring back to life.
Please be advised that I am in no way connected with the building, club or website.
Hart Bus f/k/a 9306 WF
I saw the car a few years ago when he still had it in the building. The pole and roof shroud are taken off so it will be able to clear low bridges. We have to do the same thing when the ex-Shaker cars come down from Buffalo.
I saw the car a few years ago when he still had it in the building. The pole and roof shroud are taken off so it will be able to clear low bridges. We have to do the same thing when the ex-Shaker cars come down from Buffalo.
While on an uptown 5 train this afternoon, I heard a businessman tell one of his coworkers that the MTA should just hurry up and finish the Second Avenue subway. After all, he said, there's an entire complete tunnel between Houston Street and Ninety-sixth, and all it needs are lightbulbs and stairs!
Sigh... if only it was that easy.
No there isn't. There are small segments but it is NOT that extensive!
As I said, if only...
Looks like that would be the only proposal without NIMBYS.
Arti
Early last year, someone called W.B. posted lists of the original platform lengths of the IND stations.
Part 1: 8th Av Line
Part 2: Queens Blvd Line
Part 3: Concourse Line
Part 4: Fulton-Carnberry/Prospect Park
Part 5: Fulton St Line
Part 6: Crosstown Line
Part 7: 6th Av/Rutgers Line
Part 8: Stations opened 1960 and later
I have an addition to that. If you will note in Part 4, W.B. says "Note that the two elevated stations Smith-9th Street and Fourth Avenue are not part of this list because this writer could not ascertain the start and end chaining codes of said stations."
I have some pretty good estimates.
4th Avenue: start 683+85, end 690+90
The south end of the platform is right at the portal. A number writted on the column at the portal is 683+85. The north end of the platform is not far from the 691+00 sign on the wall.
Smith-9 Sts: B1 start 705+05, B1 end 712+40. B2 start 705+10, B2 end 712+45. Just note these are "guesstimates," based on the numbers written on the wall.
So, even the IND stations have been lengthened during their lifetimes?
- Lyle Goldman
I would assume that few, if any have been. Original IND stations were 660', to allow 11 60' pre war R1-9 MUs. Some (34th Street - 6th Avenue) appear to be over 700'!!
34th Street/6th Avenue Platform Lengths
B2/B4 (NB) platform: 745 feet (12 cars + 19 ft extra space)
B1/B3 (SB) platform: 685 feet (11 cars + 19 feet extra space)
...and it opened up my eyes, I saw the sign...
I apologize for the Ace of Base-ism, but two days ago, I saw a G train of R32 cars at Queens Plaza. Guess what I saw: Y! That's right, one of the side route signs on one of the cars had a Y sign showing. And, as Eric B. said, it was in a white bullet centered on the sign. You know, the tesimony of two is stronger than the testimony of one.
Another glaring example of NYCT's short-sightedness in design exists in downtown Manhattan.
In connection with the complete renovation of the park area in front of the courthouses on Centre and Worth Streets, Transit renovated the old BMT entrance to the Chambers Street/Borough Hall station complex. The entrance was closed for several months while a new stairway and wall tiles were installed. The old BMT station downstairs is being renovated (at a snail's pace).
But, when the station was nearing completion, Transit missed a chance to hearken back to old New York by simply reinstalling the same bland 1930's IND stairway entrance gates that existed at the station before the renovation. In keeping with the renovation of City Hall Park, which is nearby, Transit should have designed an entrance that recalls, if not the old IRT kiosks, then something that looks more classic than what exists.
In the context of the other things MTA has to worry about, I'd say that's a glaring example of a neglected anthill.
I'm not criticizing your nostalgia or taste for transit architecture. Even if I completely agree with you, I'm just not sure this needs to be high in priority. If MTA takes care of functionality, safety, ADA access, and drops the ball on this, I'm not sure why I should be very upset. If they haven't taken care of those other items yet, I would definitely not want them spending time on it.
This station should have gotten an elevator. THAT would be an important consideration.
We're on the same page.
I was thinking about the wrong station.
This station already has an elevator. It just needs elevators down to the BMT platforms.
I think the current emphasis on historic preservation -- and the ridiculous price often paid for it -- is an example of my "oscilating stupidity" theory of politics. We went from tearing down Penn Station to paying $100 million to renovate the Tweed Courthouse. They should have torn it down, along with all of those tenements they renovated in the late 1980s.
Be thankful they didn't close the entrance altogether.
They can't close that entrance, because that entrance justified the closing of the Worth Street stop in 1962.
When the Brooklyn Bridge station platforms were being lengthened in the 1950's, a connection was built between Brooklyn Bridge and Chambers Street on the BMT. This enabled IRT riders to get off the Lex locals and expresses, walk down a few passageways and emerge in front of the courthouses on Centre Street, about 1/2 block from Worth Street. Before that connection was built, the northernmost exit from the BB stop was at least 2 blocks from Worth Street and perhaps more. By having that connection, Worth Street could be closed. Closing the entrance now would put riders who want to go north of Worth Street in a worse position than they were before 1962.
Okay, see, now you're attempting to assign concern for rider convenience to entrance/exit closings, as opposed to concern for fiscal and "safety" issues. Besides, I was speaking generally (and sardonically), not specifically. If only that "1950's" attitude were present when they closed, say, the southern portal to the IND CPW 72nd Street stop. It's twelve to thirteen blocks between that lone portal and entrances to the Columbus Circle/59th street station, the next stop downtown -- that's a loooooong distance between entrances, even for the IND.
Not only did the TA close the south entrance to 72nd (when did that happen, anyway?), they also closed the northernmost entrance to 59th on CPW within the past ten years. (Remnants of the staircases to the mezzanine are still apparent on the IND platforms, including a seemingly pointless wall that remains.)
You see this all over the IND. The design of the system called for less stops and longer distances in between them, but with more portals to each stop to enable similar street-access compared to the IRT and BMT models. Then fiscal and safety concerns led the MTA to close one or more entrances to almost all IND stations. Witness the crosstown line, and/or the Queens Blvd. line. Almost all stations, except ones with higher ridership like Steinway St. or express stops, have had their entrances cut-down to one. Or witness the Bronx Concourse line, where whole mezzanines have been blocked-off. Even Manhattan was not exempt, as we have already discussed with regard to the insane exit-closings between 72nd St. and Columbus Circle. Another example is the 50th Street E/C stop, right in the heart of the midtown business and theatre district, where multiple entrances would make the most sense. This certainly defeats the original design intent of the IND system.
They could install more IRT style kiosks throughout the system. They would make great shelters on rainy days and they would make the subway entrances a lot easier to find. They could also install BMT style lamps on the BMT station since they had a distinctive appearence. Hopefully the City will reproduce the old style tilework along the ex BMT 4th Ave. line in Brooklyn as I don't care for the style of tilework that they are using presently on that line's stations.
BMTJeff
No. What they should have done was install an elevator. This station has no mezzanine, and an island platform. There are no barriers once you're underground.
-Hank
Last night my wife and I caught an R-142, running on the downtown 6 line, at 86th Street, intending to ride to 51st Street.
The ride was a disaster. The car we sat in first smelled like - ahem -feces, so we switched cars. I thought the source might have been the homeless person sitting at one end of the car, so we switched. Unfortunately, the next car smelled even more like feces and there were no homeless people sitting in it. The A/C was not working well and it was very humid in the car. Moreover, ALL of the station light markers on the electronic strip maps were flashing simultaneously, until the maps simply went dark altogether. The LED station announcement sign continuously flashed "110th Street Next" no matter which station we were in. The electronic station announcements were completely silent.
And to top it all off, the smallest application of the brakes caused a horrible squealing noise.
What a hunk of junk. Give me the Redbirds any day of the week.
Of course. Noone would ever think of defacating a redbird. And the digital signs on them are always working. And they never screech.
Andrew
Good response. :-)
Maybe some Kawasaki manager had an affair with a subordinate at the Yonkers factory, and just happened to have a weird fetish for excrement (not that uncommon in Japanese culture, actually). The hapless R142 was simply caught in the "crossfire", so to speak.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The feces odor might have come from some disgruntled employee at the Yonkers plant. It seems from recent posts that employee abuse and/or mistreatment is commonplace and maybe a disgrunteld employee does his business in a finished car waiting to be delivered.
BMTJeff
Maybe some Kawasaki manager had an affair with a subordinate at the Yonkers factory, and just happened to have a weird fetish for excrement (not that uncommon in Japanese culture, actually).
Not uncommon at all.
That is sick. Just sick. It looked as if her insides were were coming out of her ass.
gross
As much as I like rotten.com, it would be most unwise to assume that all their pictures are genuine and unaltered. Let the viewer beware.
Gross.
Gross.
And probably faked.
a genuine r-142 in real action !!
Salaamallah, i like your attitude!!!
Yeah, but was that anus of hers ever covered by a suit?
This is total bullshit and you are a complete idiot. When one R-142 has a problem, you complain like its the end of the world.
Yet somehow every day, every hour a REPULSIVE RUSTBIRD has even worse problems that this, and you still consider them the best invention since sliced bread.
All I can say is you need a reality check.
Oh, and those insults are just my youth speaking to all you ageists.
Your insults aside, this is not "one problem" I have had with the R-142s. It seems like every time I ride one, there's a little glitch or something wrong with it.
Of course the Redbirds have their problems. But they're 40 years old, remember! You think the R-142's fancy electronic stuff is going to be working in 40 years? They're not even working properly now! The beauty of the Redbirds lies in their simplicity. They're a fun ride because they're simple.
Its YOU who needs the reality check. The R-142 has already been troublesome to transit and have had to be pulled from service once already. I predict that they're always going to be troublesome. Last night's ride showed me nothing to change my mind. You, on the other hand, probably thought that the R-46's were well-designed and well-built cars and loved the Grumman Flxibles buses too.
you seem to have a streak of bad luck with the R-142A every time i ride it, i never had a problem. however every other one is taken out of service for a problem the last one went out because of poor breaking. however. i find them fun to ride quick and the most of them i rode smelled like candy. the break squeaking is perpetual. it will never leave (no squeaking whatsoever on the Bom. r-142. wait till it comes back and you will see what i mean)because of its bogie structure. remember also.the problem you had with a stinky warm airconditioner is pretty common. all they have to do clean out the airducts because a fungus is what is making it stink. if its new stock to have started running, then there is possibly a wiring problem with the climate system itself. but always remember these new machines are far more sophisticated than redbirds. my opinion is that sophistication is one thing that the redbirds and R-142/142A's keeps them from being compared in the reliability subject. if r-142 wasn't so sophisticated they would probably be as reliable as the redbirds or better because of new structure and all. give em' time. don't knock em;
>>>It seems like every time I ride one, there's a little glitch or something wrong with it.<<<
Keyword: Little. Everytime I ride a bus there's something wrong with it or a little glitch. I'll take a horse and buggy anyday (note the sarcasm).
>>>Of course the Redbirds have their problems. But they're 40 years old, remember!<<<
Yheah, they are. That's why they're getting replaced by the R142! See, when something mechanical (and human on many occasions) gets old, something newer and usually better is brought in to replace it. R142s ARE better than Redbirds, and you will see that.
>>>You think the R-142's fancy electronic stuff is going to be working in 40 years?<<<
If it doesn't, then that shall be the fault of the TA, not the R142 car design.
>>>They're not even working properly now!<<<
So everything in history that has made life soooo much easier worked right the first time it was introduced. Damn these R142s for being performing the way any new technology would!
>>>The beauty of the Redbirds lies in their simplicity.<<<
An Abacus is quite simple as well. Just like the Redbirds. Why don't you box up your complex PC, hop on one of your beloved Redbirds, and trade in the PC for a nice, simple Abacus!
>>>They're a fun ride because they're simple.<<<
And you'll have tons of fun with your Abacus! Although I see no corrolation between simpleness and the fun you can have as a result there of.
>>>The R-142 has already been troublesome to transit and have had to be pulled from service once already. I predict that they're always going to be troublesome.<<<
Based on minor problems as cqueaky breaks and mssed up stop announcments and LED signs? THAT will keep people those new fangled cars from going anywhere (note more sarcasm)!
>>>You, on the other hand, probably thought that the R-46's were well-designed and well-built cars and loved the Grumman Flxibles buses too.<<<
R46 cars had cracked trucks. Grumman-Flxible buses had cracked frames and LITERALLY hundreds of more problems. You listed a scant three for the R142. Two of which were most likely due to human error. You don't seem to be able to distinguish a minor problem from a potentially dangerous one.
You think the R-142's fancy electronic stuff is going to be working in 40 years?
Yes. By your logic, trains should still be pulled by steam locomotives, because that keeps it simple.
They're a fun ride because they're simple.
They're an extremely dull, annoying ride because they're simple.
You, on the other hand, probably thought that the R-46's were well-designed and well-built cars and loved the Grumman Flxibles buses too.
I don't remember the Grumman Flxibles.
And except for their original (faulty construction) trucks, the R-46s ARE well-designed and well-built. They shouldn't have removed the high tech stuff in the GOH but improved it.
There are enough R142's around to wipe out the R26's and some R28's TODAY, but not one Redbird has been retired because even the TA has little confidence in their replacements.
The reason the Redbirds are still around is because they want to increase service before scrapping cars.
so is that why the Bom r-142's are out of service? because it makes no sense why they aren't in. i just heard that the problem is fixed? i also seen a set 7211-15 (kawasaki) matched with 6335-40 (bombardier)in unionport. whats going on? can you supply with answers?
geeeezzz!! the r-142s are breakin down allready !!
And the Redbirds are breaking down STILL.
Perhaps we should just give up. It's like battling brainless zombies. They never die, and they always say the most unintelligent and buffonish things.
Besmirched Be!!
Yet in person, (they) make quite grand conversationalists!
south ferry !! as you can see the 2 before you etc... subtalkers / posters cant handle the truth !! they know the {-The-142s-are-scrap-ready-made!!!}
they cant deal with the FACT the redbirds & other r-38s & older both was built to last & are better !!! LOL !!!
give then hell south ferry !! keep up the good work !!
So what. Fools can make great conversation. It doesn't mean that anything they say is truthful or useful.
If the TA had as little faith as you wish they did, they would cancel the R142 AND R143 order, convert everything to 1930 standards, throw out all of the PCs and replace them with the venerable typewriter and abacus and call it a day. But, unlike some of the Rustbird fanatics, they do think with their heads instead of their rear ends. I guess I must say this again to the hard of hearing....
HELLO MORONS!!!!!!!! THERE ARE 1,425 REDBIRDS IN SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!! 1,425! 1,425! 1,425! 1,425! 1,425! THEY WON'T BE GONE UNTIL THE SUMMER OF 2002!!!!!!!! THEY'RE PAST THEIR RETIREMENT AGE!!!!!! YOU'VE HAD 40 YEARS TO ENJOY THESE THINGS!!!!!!!!!! DINOSAURS DIED AROUND 65 MILLION YEARS AGO, YET YOU AND YOUR COVETED RUSTBIRDS SOMEHOW MANGED TO SURVIVE THE COMET!!!!!!!! IF YOU ALL HATE R142S THAT MUCH FOR THEIR TECHNOLOGY, GO LIVE IN AN AMISH PARADISE!!!!!!!!!! GET OUT OF NYC!!!!!!!!!!
There, that feels better. Oh, and if anyone responds to this with a nasty flame or insult, that means you were probably offended as you felt I was talking to you. This is just an FYI post, if you're offended, it's most likely because you fit the bill.
Hi. That might not be true as far as not one redbird being retired. I was at 207 yard about five weeks ago walking through the main shop (great on the weekends when there isn't a soul around, except for some cats) and came across 9486-87 on 13 tk. They were up on jacks and were pretty much stripped of everything. Doors, bars, seats, side signs, master controllers, brake valves, MDC's, light fixtues, sash panels and just about everything else. This was no regular shop job. The seats, light fixtues, door and sash panels were stacked on pallets and were strapped up, as if for storage. One car inspector wrote in chalk, "N.J. aquarium" on the low band of the car beneath the thresholds. If anyone knows where 9486-87 are, please pass it on.
Anyway, I haven't ridden on a R142 yet but I am looking forward to it. One day, most of the bugs will be gone on them but they will need time just like every other piece of equipment. CED and T/O's will have to learn and get to know what they are capable of. I will miss the redbirds also but probably not as much as others. I had a lot of fun times on them. And rotten times too, like sweating to death in the cabs or...........how many can relate to this..........when you don't think you're going to stop at the car marker and your 10 car train suddenly turns into Fred Flintstone's car. Ha Ha!!! No foot brake! I guess comes down to taking the good with the bad. Enjoy.
With all the bells and whistles on the R-142s compared to their predacessors, the MTA is being smart keeping the Redbirds around for a while, based on the disastarous experience 25 years ago with the R-44/R-46 series.
When the R-26/28s start vanishing, then you'll know the MTA brass thinks enough of the bugs have been worked out of the new cars t hat its safe to start retiring the old ones. And if the R-26/28s make it to the 100th anniversary celebration of the IRT in 2004, then you can safely say the R-142s really are lemons.
When 2004 rolls around the R38, R40, R42, and a smattering of R32s are supposed to be heading out the door.
The 10 R-32GEs whose air conditioning cannot be repaired.
Doubt the changeover on the R-38/40/42s will come that fast. They still have to work the R-143s and their new technology into the system before the others are built and arrive.
More likely the current cars will go bye-bye between 2005-2007 at the earliest (and for the sake of the MTA execs, the R-26/28s better be off-premisis by January of next year, or they -- or more precisely, the R-142 glitches -- are going to be an election issue in the 2002 governor's race).
Train Dude was kind enough to mail some scans of the R143 training manual's drawings to me a little while ago. It looks like the EMD electronics package from the SD80MAC's and SD90MAC's has come to the subway (I'm sure the 142's are similar but remember, you're talking to a guy that can't imagine running a train without wrenches) ... I'm still looking them over and am amused by the sheer amount of electronics in them ... here's hoping that whatever lessons were learned from the 142's find their way to the 143's ...
Since the R-142As which have been manufactured by Kawasaki using workers who are badly treated it might be safe to say that many of those cars could wind up being lemons. If any "Redbird" is still in service by October 27, 2004 you know that the R-142, 142As are lemons.
BMTJeff
so much for the " repulsive rustbirds "....LOL ..!!
the 142s are god allmighty himself !! the ultimate religion of some who post here !!??......!
I don't have religion nor do I belive in any god.
question.... are you an atheist ?? ...........just curious if you dont mind ..........
Hmm, since you didn't mention it, I will assume it got you to your destination safely and on time?
Yes, but the Redbirds usually do too. In fact, in all the years since the refit, I have never encountered any problem of any kind on a Redbird. Not with lighting, AC, nothing.
It's obvious that when you're on a Redbird you're too busy wiping your own drool to notice how the air conditioner always sucks, how the WF cars have the lights that flash off at gaps, how the train screeches and creaks more than anything else and how rusty and crappy it is.
Yet on an R-142 you absolutely MUST find a problem with it.
Anyway, I don't see how you can complain about a problem with the automated annoucements and digital displays on the R-142. Why don't you complain about the fact that automated announcements NEVER work on the Repulsive Rustbirds (they're not there!) or what about the fact that the PA system on the repulsive blood-red snakes often works like crap so one can't hear the manual announcements.
Everything on the R-142 that exists on a Redbird in primitive form worked on that ride you took. Why don't you complain that every little thing that might possibly go wrong on an R-142 doesn't even exist on a Rustbird! The cars motors, brakes, lights and doors all worked. And all of those things are more advanced than on a redbitch and they still worked.
As for pulling R-142s out for brake problems, the Redbitches have crappy brakes every day, yet they don't bother to pull them out. The R-142 gets the respect it needs to fix problems.
I will not be able to contain my jubilation on the day the last Rustbird hits the cold waters of the Atlantic Ocean.
"the air conditioner always sucks"
AGREED!!! -Nick
Last week I rode an R142(A?) on the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to 33 St and everything functioned flawlessly. The announcements were made correctly, at the right time, the maps were perfect, the ride smooth and quiet, the car clean, bright, and air conditioned. Even the braking was smooth, but that's really more of how each T/O applies the brakes than the cars. In NYC, T/O's seem to always have a very hard brake application at the end (complete with squealing brakes and flailing standees in the cars) to get to the complete stop, on whatever equipment they're operating.
Last weekend I rode another R142(A?) on the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central, during a G.O. when all uptown trains went express. The automated announcements and maps were set to show that only express stops would be made, and everything worked as expected. The conductor also made announcements about the detour, and she was heard very clearly on the train's speakers. Not that this helped most riders, who completely ignored all sources of information and went into panic mode when the train skipped their stations. The train felt as fast as the Redbirds going up the express track, but much quieter.
Now all we have to do is get automated train arrival displays on every station platform...
You were on R142As. The R142 is on the 2, The R142A is on the 6.
see????........ this poster makes sense!! ..........stole my thunder !!.........thank you sir !!!
"And to top it all off, the smallest application of the brakes caused a horrible squealing noise."
This is an interesting observation. The brake application on the R-142 in microprocesor controlled. Improper rates can be a programming problem. This leads me to three questions. How does it happen that you and your wife were allowed into the cab with the train operator? If you were not in the cab with the train operator, how do you know when he/she took a small brake application or a full service brake application? What do you consider the smallest brake application? 10 PSI? 20 PSI, 30 PSI?
Perhaps the operator has had little or no experience operating the R-142s in service. Perhaps the operator was tired or inattentive. It seems that you, like many other buffs, have taken your less than full knowledge of the equipment, made some possibly incorrect assumptions and reached some questionable conclusions. I guess I'm guilty of the same thing at times. Until I re-read your post and saw that you were married, I incorrectly assumed that you were a kid.
Until I re-read your post and saw that you were married, I incorrectly assumed that you were a kid.
Because you are a victim in believing in the same stereotypes that kept women in the house doing her owner's husband's* bidding and black men working in the most menial of jobs because people believed they could do nothing better.
*In some languages, the word for husband also means owner.
Piglet, "I am a victim in......."? I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you are suggesting that my wife is subservient to me, you are, once again WRONG. My wife has been her own woman for most of our 33 years together. It seems like everytime someone mentions something related to immature behavior, you recact like they stomped on your school tie. How about this - if someone is referring to you, they'll adress you! You have not been assigned to be the defender of the young or those exhibiting childlike behavior.
I can be the defender of anything I want to be, and I will fight against these stupid stereotypes as long as they exist. I don't have to stop doing something just because a BIGOT like you wants me to.
Ooooh piglet! How do you get a biggot because I said someone made a childlike statement? I think you are getting a bit too emotional, piggy.
like bart said on the simpsons ( dont have a cow man ) ....lol
Not a cow, salaam. I just feel that there is too much mis-information being passed off here as fact. The original poster of this thread made a statement which was likely untrue and, in any event, unsupportable. I simply wanted to challange this person to explain his post. For the rest of "US", we have our opinions about the R-142s and for the mostpart they have been expressed that way - as opinions. Let's at least call our facts, facts and our opinions as such.
Pot, kettle, black, 'nuff said.
There's a number of other folks here who are getting mighty tired of these childish tirades as well - I'm just another of them. Such insistence on age seems to suggest an age bigotry of your own, might want to step back for a second and check yourself.
But go ahead and lash out, my shoulders are broad - at least in this shirt.
The point is I don't tell somebody that they're old and out of touch because of their age. I never talk about somebody's age. I don't care.
That's why I hate people who continue to use ARCHAIC stereotypes about age.
Rather than using proverbs to speak derisively of me, why don't you tell me how the fuck I am acting as an age bigot? Were all of those people advocating civil rights bigots? Well in your world they would be, and we would be all the worse for it.
I don't care if you're sick of my tirades. I don't need to know what you think. I will continue to fight for that which is right, regardless of how socially acceptable it is or not.
To me, age isn't an issue - I don't care how old or young anyone is as long as they behave reasonably mature ... but you have made highly derisive comments towards people who expressed a like of the redbirds specifically (again, an issue I'm ambivalent about personally) but in doing so, you made comments about "old," comparing people and the redbirds that didn't ride well with a few folks ... I'm a bit too busy to go back and look but I've received some comments about it from others in personal email that I won't divulge.
I said my piece though, so I'm done. Hopefully if it's important enough to anyone else to be more specific, hopefully they will. If not, then I'm done. But the main thing is we can all disagree without bordering on the abusive and that's what bothered a lot of folks in a few of your responses including me.
I really enjoy many of your observations ... it's when it turns abusive that it's time for a time out. No offense intended here. We have a lot of people with differing viewpoints but we're all in the same club here, I hope ...
but you have made highly derisive comments towards people who expressed a like of the redbirds specifically (again, an issue I'm ambivalent about personally) but in doing so, you made comments about "old," comparing people and the redbirds that didn't ride well with a few folks
I never compared trains with people, nor did I say that old people were stupid for liking Redbirds. I did say that people were stupid for using the arguments they did to put down the R-142s.
I'm a bit too busy to go back and look but I've received some comments about it from others in personal email that I won't divulge.
Why would you receive e-mails from other people that talk about me? Especially in a thread you weren't participating in?
As for my abusiveness. Some people deserve it but can't take it. I deserve it too on frequent occassion. Like now.
Well, not going to go into other people's comments in private but the general gyst was a general recent lack of civility in some quarters here and a bunch of unnecessary tangling among several folks here. I'll leave it at an observation - that many of the regulars have been invisible here lately.
I love this place a LOT, and there's a lot of people here I enjoy coming here to visit among daily. YOU are one of them. Because I admire many of your own comments, I just wanted to toss out the thought to you since others apparently didn't want to. If I didn't care, I could have said nothing as well.
Subtalk is what we all make of it as a whole. Just wanted to say my little ditty from that standpoint. I was young once too and I know from personal experience the kind of things that bother you - they bothered me at the time. Eventually though, we all learn to just ignore the stupid, killfile them and move on. Sometimes we all open mouth, insert foot. Just part of living. :)
Yo, piglet, take a deep breath and relax. If the shoe doesn't fit - do not wear it. No one was critical of you. If you are going to go into a tirade everytime someone uses an age related stereotype, you're in for a very miserable time in life. It seems that you as well as another younger subtalker continue to act like fights in search of an issue to fight about. Perhaps you should pick your fights a bit more selectively. As for my original post on the subject - I still think that the points raised by the original poster were very childlike. I stand by that belief.
As for my original post on the subject - I still think that the points raised by the original poster were very childlike. I stand by that belief.
I agree with you there. I've become so accustomed of accusing everybody of ageism that I pick the wrong fights.
I'm sorry.
Peace
Did you read my post about inshot and the 142As?
It has been my observation that the friction brakes on these
cars do, in fact, squeal. I can hear that squeal on some cars
at moderate speeds and moderate to heavy brake applications (where
the strength of application is determined subjectively by me based
on the force I feel as a result of the non-inertial reference frame
created by deceleration). The brakes on almost all of these cars
squeal and grunt on the low-speed stop. I don't know if these
are symptoms of a mechanical problem or are normal sounds for these
new brake packages.
I've only ridden them on the #2 line. It's a different manufacturer over there but I have not felt or heard anything unusual related to braking. I've ridden in the cab several times and always found them to be smooth and quiet. I have not yet ridden the R-142s on the #6 line but on the rare occasions that I've seen them in service, I've never notices any brake noise.
Of course, we all know that there have been some braking problems with the R-142s so I don't discount your observations. However, the point I was trying to make was that the original poster could not know if the T/O was taking a mini-brake of a full service brake since he was not in the cab.
Jeff, to give you a difinitive answer to your question, there is no inshot on the R-142s. I rode one on the 7th Ave line today - with the t/o from Borough Hall to Penn Station. This is what I found. Contrary to the pronouncements from the redbird-loonies, everything worked as it should including the time displayed in the car. I did hear the screaching that you referred to. Since the duplex gauge shows brake cylinder pressure, it was easy to see what was happening. It seems that the dynamic is 100% braking to about 5 MPH as in other car classes. However, the dynamic does not fade and there is no blending. At about 5 MPH - in full service, the dynamic drops off instantaneously and the brake cylinder air jumps to 15 PSI. That't why you hear the screach - no blending.
BTW: I did not feel the jerking of the brakes that an earlier poster complained about despite numerous sharp curves and many timers.
I've never gotten over to the west side for the Bombardier cars.
In addition to the low-speed screech, the Kawasakis sometimes
squeal at moderate speeds, suggesting that the friction brakes
are coming on. I haven't been up front when this has happened
so I don't have a lot of additional info. AFAIK, the friction
brakes should not apply under these circumstances unless both
the regenerative and dynamic brakes fail.
I generally like the handling of these cars much better than
any of the current SMEE equipment. The AC traction package offers
very smooth and strong acceleration which doesn't start to fade
until much higher speeds. The brakes are sharp and have a little
bit of low-speed grab, reminiscent of old-school SMEE. Most
T/O on the job today have been ruined by the castrated brakes
of the last 10 years and have developed bad habits such as stopping
with a heavy final brake application. The 142s aren't as mushy
and when these bad habits are translated to the new equipment, the
result is herky-jerky operation.
the Bombardiers brakes don't squeal or screeech at all. one was running last night don't know if it is today though. but i'm gonna go find out if it is. what does SMEE mean? also they break a much smoother than the Kawasaki's.
SMEE = Straight-Air Multiple Electric Emergency.
Technically, SMEE brakes were only used on contracts R-10 through R-36 although SMEE has since become the common identification for all of the brake systems that controlled braking via a Straight Air Pipe. R-38 and up were actually referred to as RT-2 Brake System and the R-44 was originally called RT-5 system.
AC traction package offers very smooth and strong acceleration which doesn't start to fade until much higher speeds.
Having ridden quite a few of the Kawasaki R-142As a week and a half ago, I have to agree. I was very impressed with the cars' acceleration, handling and braking. I spent an entire day videotaping the R-142As mingling with the Redbirds and don't have a single complaint about the new cars. I hope their acceleration rates aren't reduced.
The fastest accelerating subway cars I have ever been on are the new M-4s on the market/Frankford El in Philadelphia. While Washington, D.C. and San Francisco's cars may have higher top speeds, I don't think their acceleration rates top the M-4s.
--Mark
Mark:
I'm glad someone else besides me finds favor with the M-4's down here in Philly. After the bugs were worked out, they turned out to be pretty good subway cars. The announcements are clear, also.
Chuck Greene
i've heard so and i've been dying to ride them. their trucks are sort of interesting in design, thats if you look at the wheels. never saw something like that.
You will love the ride. The announcements are kind of wordy and regular riders are getting tired of them. "Doors opening, Frankford Train, all stops, doors are closing. Next station 56th st, for Route "G", etc., etc. Nice woman's voice, though.
When you ride, get the "railfan" seat up front. Actually, the first three rows are good for looking out.
Chuck Greene
You're right about the announcements.
I decided to stand at the "traditional" railfan window while taking the video. It is tinted a little bit and it cut down on sun glare.
--Mark
They run quite well. And like I said, very fast acceleration.
But they won't win any beauty awards anytime soon :)
--Mark
Are you sure about that? The M-3 Almond Joys were much faster and accelerated better than the M-4's.
It's been a long time snce I watched my M-3 videotape which I just got back, I might add, after a 3 year "loan". So I'll have to watch it again and compare.
--Mark
Yesterday and again today, I was in Penn Station when the Acela arrived (coincidence). Both times, as it came to a stop, the brakes screeched. Perhaps AMTRAK needs to replace it with some redbirds.
Oooooh, redbirds with pans! And some people complain about
an R17 with a trolley pole! If ever the pans got caught in the
catenary (as happens on the CDOT portion sometimes) they'd probably
rip the roof off like a cheap can.
Actually, there are some interesting parallels between the Acela
trainsets and the R142 orders, but as the story is still playing
out, it is hard to predict how either will turn out in the long run.
When were you at Penn?
Both the R142 and R142A were made by Bombardier...
The Eurostar and Thalys TGV style trains also squeal very loudly when they come to a stop. No one complains about it over there, even if they hurt your ears if you're in a bad spot.
But I wouldn't mind operating a redbird through the Channel Tunnel (riding it would be a whole different ball of wax).
They are the tried and true electro/mechanical answer to many vexing engineering problems with electric powered trains in the urban environment. They've eliminated the smoking (faulty) journals and dynamic braking got rid of the sparks (from braking) that plagued riders and workers from the 1890's to the mid seventies (remember the R1-R9's? many of you do). The last major car replacements were SMEE's replacing SMEE's, we should improve THAT technology instead of promoting these soda cans with washing machine-like traction motors. When the 142/143's take off they remind me of a laundrymat's machines going from the wash to spin cycle, they should cut these machines up and sell them to major sports franchises and use the parts as washing machine vats. GET RID OF THEM AND BRING BACK THE TRIED AND TRUE!!! There's a 55 year track record (no pun intended) that says we should.
This, I would have to say, is a very uninformed opinion based
on fear, uncertainty and doubt. There are valid engineering
concerns with the 142 design, mostly in the reliance on semi-
propietary computer control networks and their failure modes, but
the A/C traction package is not one of those concerns. I'm
sorry that washing machines and other household appliances
frighten you. I admit, induction motors are the new kids on
the block. They've only been around for about 100 years.
Aren't the motors on the R-142s supposed to be less trouble prone in the long run?
BMTJeff
Umm, yes! No brushes, no commutator, no flashovers. Better
hp/lb rating too.
Could they put the new type of motors on the older cars such as the R-68s, R-62s or even the R-44s and the R-46s?
BMTJeff
AC propulsion from DC input requires at minimum choppers and such. Proper control of these motors though would require a LOT of equipment and probably computer/microprocessor control of frequency, waveshape and more. Mounting the motors is the easy part. Providing AC and control for them (a propulsion package) would invite the plaguing question of "where would you put it?" Not to mention the need for a complete rebuild of the cabs and a whole lot more. I really don't see it being practical - it'd cost as much if not more than a new car.
Plus the fact that an inverter has to be installed as well, and inverters are very heavy. Like I've said before, A.C. traction motors are perfect for commuter rail, Amtrak, or ant line that is already powered by A.C., but not for 600VDC systems.
Well actually, they're a wonderful idea from a standpoint of losing those silly carbon brushes if for no other reason. Tearing down traction motors is a royal pain in the butt and it has to be done often with DC motors. And Inverters have come a long way ... granted, a retrofit is probably not at all practical given the extensive amount of work that would take ... but for new car orders, it reduces the amount of power required and really enhances the reliability over time. Far fewer things need to be taken apart routinely ... Don't get me wrong - I love the old time stuff and it's pretty simple if you have the "manpower" to coddle it as required and the spare parts.
You pay up front for savings down the road and there's nothing wrong with that concept. The number of folks that are doing mechanical work as their trade is diminishing. Everyone wants to be an exec these days. :)
AC motors are a great idea. If only the TA had made the system run on AC power to begin with...
Actually, for it to work well, they'd have to do a convert to DC anyway ... I've had personal experience with AC traction on SD80-MACs and the way it goes, the prime mover is still DC, and the motors run on variable voltage and variable frequency. It allows for maximum torque at all rotational speeds by varying both. So the TA is actually sitting pretty. It's much more of a challenge with AC supplied catenary where you have to "play the ball where it lands" ...
AC traction has nothing to do with what type of power distribution
is used. In fact, where the power is AC, it has to be stepped
down and rectified anyway.
Yes, inverters (or more properly, 3-phase drive systems) can be
big, but so are the many contactors needed for a DC traction system.
The latter, such as is used on "SMEE" cars in NYCT, has a gazillion
electromechanical things that have to be inspected on a very frequent
basis, filed clean, spring tensions adjusted, etc. The good news
is you can do all this with a minimum of electronic gadgetry, the
bad news is you still have to do it.
Modern 3-phase AC traction packages have almost no moving parts
(just the overload circuit breaker) and there is nothing to adjust.
The systems are basically self-diagnosing and if one of the solid
state modules goes, you just swap it out. Now, admittedly, the
defective part is a black box that you have to send out somewhere
to get fixed, but unless those boxes are designed poorly, they
don't fail too often.
Yes. They have had prototype AC traction systems on the existing
cars for several years.
And WMATA had all the original Rohr cars converted from DC cam control to microprocessor AC motors. They were happy with the job and the cars , which date from 1976-78 have a new lease on life.
Which cars did the test the prototypre AC traction motors on?
BMTJeff
Lighten up a little, will ya?? I'm a GREAT fan of Nikola Tesla. I knew ten years ago that the AC's were easier to maintain (less moving parts etc). I just think that there's more to the SMEE's and we should stick with them. Non linear induction is the utimate (maglev) that's where we should be looking for the next quantum leap.
So if you knew ten years ago that the ACs are better in every way, why do you continue to say the SMEEs deserve a chance?
Clinging to the past is pointless, you're going to grow old, we all are, even if you try to arrest development and try to keep things as they were in your youth, it won't arrest your aging.
And if always wait for the next technology, we will die waiting, even if we live as long as a redwood.
Whoa, slow up. AC is the propulsion - SMEE is the brakes. They are not linked at the hip. There are 8 R-38s with RT-2 brakes and AC propulsion (just for 1 example).
Well, he was talking about the propulsion of the old cars, but still called them SMEE.
Maybe we can call the R-142 Captain Hook.
You're right, but the four dc motors per truck cars were always associated with the SMEE braking system. I used the descriptive, loosely, to ID the post WWII types, starting with the R-10. That's the technology that I was refering to. Sorry.
Dunno about you, but I'm waiting for the HOVERtrain and I ain't coming to the city until I get to ride one. :)
There was an even longer track record for the equipment that you say cause problems. You think that we've already reached the zenith of technological advancement and should stop? Well, if humanity stops developing then it has no reason to exist. Maybe you should go kill yourself, you'd do the world a favor.
Nice guy you are, plus a great sense of humor. Do me a favor, next time you see a beloved 142 whirling down the track, go down on the roadbed turn around bend over and kiss your %%%@%ng ass goodbye!
Hi there,
I have a question about the R1-9s, and I know you worked with them during your tenure at NYC transit, so if I may:
I regards to operating the train as a Motorman, are they very different from the later R-series equipment? I looked in the cab at the R-4 that they have at the Transit Museum and the controls looked the same, but I recall some posts here on the board alluding to the fact that they're different. Could you please elaborate a little on this?
Thanks very much,
Marco
Well, been 30 years, so I hope folks will correct me if alzheimers has set in. (grin) ... they had GE controllers and the brakes were AMUE type as opposed to the later SMEE types on most of the newer cars (R10 and up) ... you may have noted a round box on top of the controller where there was a hole that takes a "plug" (electric brake plug) that looks about the size of a boiler cartridge fuse.
They didn't have dynamic braking in the sense of later cars, thus you could wrap the controller, get up to speed and coast - something you couldn't do on later cars since the dynamic braking would kick in. When you went to stop them, it was real braking all the way down to a stop though the control stands did pretty much LOOK like its later cousins, the "ride" was quite different.
Hope that's enough ... :)
Not to take the spotlight from Selkirk but I'll volunteer. The controls were for all practical purposes the same right up thru the R42, except for diference in controller handles, substitution of circuit breakers for fuses in R26 and up; a few differences in trainline switches (on the wall to the motorman's left). The brake valves didn't look much different except on R38 and up they were enclosed in a console; the big difference was even if it looked the same on first sight the R1-9 Brake valves and braking system.The R1-9 had the old style ME23 brake valve and automatic air brake, no dynamic but had electro-pneumatic supplement to the automatic air which basically electrically set brakes at the same time in each car instead of waiting for brake pipe air to exhaust thru the train. Likewise you'd go from service to lap to set air, then again when you wanted more, go to electric holding and finally release when you stopped.
The R10-42 had ME42 or ME43 (think the 38-42 had ME43) brake valves which were straight air service, and the brake pipe was only for emergency features, they also had electro=pneumatic brake control but added the dynamic feature in which motor braking currents were controlled by straight air pressure; these were self lapping valves in which you'd set your brake valve to the desired application and leave it or increase or decrease.
Automatic air: brakes are applied by a reduction in brake pipe pressure; total loss causes emergency.
Straight air: brakes are applied by air pressure in straight air pipe [also used on locomotives, called "independent brake" with trainbrake being automatic] Straight air was the original type of air brake but if a train broke in two it would be completely ineffective so was replaced by the automatic system so a break in two caused emergency application. The R10-42 have both systems, straight air for service brake and automatic for emergency only.
Well that does it, Ed ... I'm going to have to start taking ginko viagra so I can remember what the F I was thinking. :)
I just remember the brake stand as "AMUE" and to always be mindful of that because if I ever worked SMEE, I'd be in TROUBLE. But yep, you've got it right ... I remember when I did a couple of runs on 32's that it was very hard getting used to the idea of pulling the handle and just leaving it there. There was a good bit of futzing you had to do on the old field tanks that made it feel like you were earning your check. Heh.
Thank you gentlemen!
I thought that the older equipment required more "jiggleing" if you will. I was also a bit confused about 'LAP' which, I had heard mentioned, but was never explained.
Reagrds,
Marco
ME:23 brake valve: From left to right:
Release: keeps trainline [brake pipe] fully charged and releases brakes when applied or keeps them released..Brake pipe pressure in release was normally 70 PSI on NYCT anyway. All older equipment.
Electric holding: like an electric retainer. Once you have your air set you can be in electric holding and the "set" you made is held electrically while the brake pipe is fully charged when you stop; nice smooth stop, no waiting for rear of train to release. If you're not usisng electric brake [normally you would] this position is also a release position but a slower release.
Handle off...a lap position but the brake pipe thru the train will not exhaust thoroughly. [air stops escaping]Also to remove handle]
Lap ..Exhausts brake pipe air after service application is made until brake pipe is at the same pressure thru the train; then no air in, none out.
Service...allows brake pipe air to exhaust as desired by the M/M or Engr.If you left handle in service it owould draw the brake pipe down to zero you have to go to lap as soon as you have the desired air set.[or electric holding]
Emergency: Rapidly exhausts all brake pipe air to cause an emergency stop. called the big hole due to more rapid exhaust.
R1-9, BMT AB and D type, IRT Low-V and Steinway, the DL&W MU's and I'm sure others had the AMUE brake schedule with ME23 valve.
I was looking and the shot I took of them being delived the two nights I was at 207st yard. I just notest that there are four air bags per truck not two like the R142's. Each axle has two on them (one per wheel), and a joint the pivest on a pin. This look like it is good to make them a even smoother ride.
I am mailing the shot the David today so he can put the on the sit. I would have done it my self but I don't have a scanner.
Robert
I have the drawings of the trucks as well as other drawings from the R-143 training manual. I'll be scanning them this weekend. I will e-mail a zip-file containing them to all who E-Mail me requesting them. I won't respond to those who post requests. I'm too lazy to copy the e-mail addresses for 40-50 people.
Will the R143s be delivered to the KHI Yonkers plant like the R142As?
-Dan
I think that the plant is already overloaded with R142As getting ready to get delivered.
Other then the 39th st. SBK yard, where are the other locations of where cars are waiting to be scrapped? This site has photos from a Naporano yard. Where is that? Are there any abandoned cars laying around anywhere in the NYC region?
-Dan
Due to the number of cars in service and limited yard space, NYCT car scrappings tend to happen quickly once they get going. Often the scrapper arrives at a regular yard with a crane and a fleet of flatbeds, lifts bodies off trucks and hauls them away to a junkyard. The actual scrapping takes place there at a liesurely pace. Naparano's (NIMCO), just off the NJ Turnpike, is an example. Smaller lots might be amassed at 39th St. and carfloated away. Small batches of out of service cars may be maintained at yards as parts sources for sisters still in service.
If there is a large volume of cars to be scrapped, NYCT will use some of Bush Terminal yardage for storage (particularly if NYCH is used for float-barging cars to Naporano in NJ).
Some Coney Island tracks are also used, but then again, not for long.
BMTman
Remember around 1968 or 9, some LIRR MP-54's and T-54's were sent to Coney Island for scrap ? Why was that ?
207 St Yard has a bunch of scrap cars laying around. About 3 tracks worth.
Not anymore. They had a G.O. a month back. They airlifted the P/Wire R44s out with the Union Square remains and 1909.
If you're talking to someone else, and they ask where you live (conversationally), what do you say?
Most people on this board from NYC or even in some of the suburbs basically would probably agree if they were described as New Yorkers. But is this your primary ID of your home?
When I lived in Flatbush, if someone in the CIty asked me where I lived, I said "Flatbush"--no further explanation necessary. Not a matter of local pride--Flatbush was where I lived. If I was talking t someone out of town (or I was out of town--like in the Army), then I would say "Brooklyn" or rarely "New York."
What do you say?
I live "On the Island"
Which Island? Staten Island, Manhattan Island, Long Ialsnd, Rikers Island or Royal Island?
Which Island? Staten Island, Manhattan Island, Long Ialsnd, Rikers Island or Royal Island?
You forgot Hart.
I also forgot Governor's Island and Roosevelt Island.
You forgot Wards and Randalls Island too.
And City Island, High Island, Coney Island, Mill Island, Hunter Island, Twin Island, Mill Rock Island, U Thant Island, North Brother Island, South Brother Island, Liberty Island, Ellis Island, Shooter's Island, Island of Meadows, Prall's Island, Hoffman Island, Swinburne Island, Berrian's Island, White Island, Barren Island and many others.
And what about Broad Channel?
Now the fact that nearly all of these islands are uninhabited and some of them aren't even islands doesn't matter.
This always meant Long Island to me. Here in Buffalo, it means Grand Island.
Oh you kid. Certainly not Rikers. We have only the good guys on this site, unless you include my buddy Brighton Express Bob. But even he has his moments.
If you have to ask, you're probably not from the NYC area.
That could be big topic of discussion. When I grew up in the suburbs, in Nassau County, when we said we are going to the "city," it meant we are going into Manhattan. It depends really on who you are chatting with. Some neighborhoods in NYC are well known are some are not. Flatbush is better known than Windsor Terrace. If I chatting with a non-New Yorker, I would first say I live in Queens, New York. Then if they said to me that they knew part of Queens, then I would say then in Bayside. So it really depends on the other person and what he/she know about NYC. Yes, this is the "BIG APPLE," but they are many "slices" to this big apple.
I hate that expression "the big apple" I rarely heard that term used by native new yorkers
When I first moved to California in 1954 and was asked where I was from and where I got that wierd accent, I said Brooklyn because everyone knew where that was and no one knew much of Queens. That is very different now and I think the reason is the METS!!!! Even though they are playing rather crappy now, they have built a loyal following around the country and we have a good number of them where I live. (I do a good job of brainwashing, too, and I sit here wearing my Mets cap.
If I'm talking to another person from the NYC area, Queens. If it's someone from another city, New York City.
When I lived on Long Island, it was the town if I was talking to another LI person, Long Island if it was someone otherwise from New York, or New York or "Levittown, NY" or "Babylon, NY" if it was out-of-state.
:-) Andrew
Well, I live in Jersey City NJ but sometimes I'll tell people I'm from New York City, especially when I'm travelling overseas. But around here, it's always "jersey".
Just like someone from Jersey, eh?
:)
Definitly not. I'm proud of living "Up Norf" or in "Norf Jerzee." And no matter what any New Yorker says NJ is not a suburb of the city, people in NJ do there own thing, some havin nothin what-so-ever to do with The City.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
When I lived out West and I met someone from New Jersey, I asked what exit? Not the name of the town
Ha! That is a good one---but remember New Jersey stole both of New York's football teams and Big Apple residents still stupidly think of those teams as New York. So that's one for Joisey.
Same thing in Philly. You could tell someone in the area that you're from Yeadon, Upper Darby, Bristol, or even Camden, N.J., but to someone from another section of the country, you tell them you're from Philly (even if it crosses state lines). That's why New Jersey should change it's nickname from "The Garden State" to "The Great Suburb".
I live in Arcadia, California. It is about 15 miles from Los Angeles. I never tell people I'm from LA. If they inquire where Arcadia is I tell them. If they don't I figure they don't give a damn and neither do I. They could also get an Atlas.
If they inquire where Arcadia is I tell them. If they don't I figure they don't give a damn and neither do I.
That's OK, Fred... we understand that having to admit you're from California is humiliating enough :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just say around the corner from Santa Anita Race Track. Able to get on line at work
>If I'm talking to another person from the NYC area, Queens. If it's >someone from another city, New York City.
Now you see I don't like that. The only people who are from NYC are those who live in Manhattan. Your from Queens and you should be proud that you're from Queens. Your sovergnity was wrongfully stripped in 1900. Furthermore people like you always force me to ask "Manhattan?".
The only people who are from NYC are those who live in Manhattan.
What kind of nonsense is this? Let me say in no uncertain terms that this is offensive.
Your from Queens and you should be proud that you're from Queens.
Damn straight. A proud New Yorker from Queens.
Your sovergnity was wrongfully stripped in 1900.
Wrong. In accordance with the popular will, we joined the big leagues in 1898 when we took our rightful status as a part (the biggest part, by the way) of the greatest city on earth, as opposed to a motley collection of backwater Wrong Island hick towns.
Furthermore people like you always force me to ask "Manhattan?".
People like you show how important it is for us Queens folks to be absolutely clear that we are from the City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Wrong. In accordance with the popular will, we joined the big leagues in 1898 when we took our rightful status as a part (the biggest part, by the way) of the greatest city on earth, as opposed to a motley collection of backwater Wrong Island hick towns.
It would still have been part of a metropolis, just as the suburbs are, except there wouldn't be a powerful, bungling political beast in control of it. Everything except for Manhattan would be better off. Screw manhattan.
Si si Ferdinand! You're my kind of guy. Let's hear it for Queens, the largest of the boroughs and home of the METS.
Remember 20 pctis Jamaica Bay and the Marsh lands around it
Queens is part of New York City. Queens, Brooklyn, and The Bronx are, in a way, more New York than Manhattan. They're the real New York City behind the glitz and glamour and overpricedness.
:-) Andrew
That's why I call them the better boroughs. You get the alliteration and the truth.
I include Staten Island as one of the better boroughs to slight Manhattan.
Watch it Pig when you say Manhattan sucks. I said a few disparaging remarks about the Bronx and there are still a few guys on this site who won't talk to me. You might offend someone. I know from experience.
Can a former New Yorker add his two cents on this? Well I will anyway. You're right. When you go to Brooklyn and Queens and the Bronx, you see real New Yorkers with New York personalities and New York accent. In Manhattan you think you're inthe Mid-West when you hear some of those people speak. I want to hear New York when I come there, not Ohio or Wisconsin.
Try again. Manhattan doesn't end at 59th Street.
- David, who returned a few hours ago for a stroll around Washington Heights, from Audubon Terrace and Morris-Jumel Mansion along High Bridge Park, across 181st Street, and up Bennett Avenue to the cliffs beneath Fort Tryon Park at one of the stations the IND did right. (And as for overpricedness, just before that I found some great bargains at a street fair on the Upper West Side. So there.)
>>>>Now you see I don't like that. The only people who are from NYC are those who live in Manhattan.
Your from Queens and you should be proud that you're from Queens. Your sovergnity was wrongfully
stripped in 1900. Furthermore people like you always force me to ask "Manhattan?". <<<
Queens consolidation into NYC was kind of complicated. In 1898, Queens consisted of not only Queens, but all of what would become Nassau County. To make a long story short, three eastern towns in Queens (Hempstead, N Hempstead and Oyster Bay) voted to break away and become Nassau County rather than join the western section and join NYC.
I read that Queens voted with a clear majority to consolidate; only in Brooklyn was opposition very strong and consolidation approved by a small margin. So, it's incorrect to say that Queens' sovereignty was 'wrongfully stripped'.
Although, it's fun to imagine what Queens would be like today had it NOT joined NYC---or what Nassau County would be like had it remained a part of Queens and joined NYC as well....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Queens consolidation into NYC was kind of complicated. In 1898, Queens consisted of not only Queens, but all of what would become Nassau County. To make a long story short, three eastern towns in Queens (Hempstead, N Hempstead and Oyster Bay) voted to break away and become Nassau County rather than join the western section and join NYC.
Membership in New York City was never offered to them. They even remained in Queens County while the west was already taken over by Evil Manhattan. They could have remained Queens County.
I read that Queens voted with a clear majority to consolidate; only in Brooklyn was opposition very strong and consolidation approved by a small margin. So, it's incorrect to say that Queens' sovereignty was 'wrongfully stripped'.
Long Island City voted with a clear majority. The remainder voted as closely as Brooklyn.
Although, it's fun to imagine what Queens would be like today had it NOT joined NYC---or what Nassau County would be like had it remained a part of Queens and joined NYC as well....
Again, New York City membership was never offered to what is now Nassau County. If it remained part of Queens County, it would not be part of New York City anyway.
Although, it's fun to imagine ... what Nassau County would be like had it remained a part of Queens and joined NYC as well
A lot of crooked politician would have had to find other work.
If I'm talking to another Chicagoan, I'll usually say I live in Edgewater, or sometimes "Foster and Sheridan" or "5200 North". Referring to your location within the city by the nearest major street intersection or by your street number seems rather unique to Chicago.
If I'm talking to a suburbanite, then I'll say I live "in the city." (If they ask which city, then I'll give them a dirty look.)
If I'm talking to somebody from outside the Chicago area, then I simply say I live in Chicago. I hardly ever say Illinois, since the state of Illinois outside of Chicago may as well be a foreign country.
Whenever I've lived in suburban areas, I'll usually refer to the specific suburb if I'm talking to somebody from that area, or just round it off to the nearest city if I'm talking to somebody else. Examples: I'm originally from Cincinnati even though I actually lived just across the river in Fort Thomas, and over this past summer I lived in Boston for a few months even though I was really living in Brookline and working in Cambridge.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(If I'm talking to somebody from outside the Chicago area, then I simply say I live in Chicago. I hardly ever say Illinois, since the state of Illinois outside of Chicago may as well be a foreign country.)
Hence the advantage of NYC over Chicago. Chicago is a great town I hear, and I'd like to visit someday, but while I like corn as much as the next guy, I doubt I'll be touring the rest of the state. Upstate NY, the Hudson River Valley, and Long Island's east end are very nice in comparsion, although I hear Michigan's upper peninsula is worth a look.
I'll give New York the advantage on that one. Chicago is a great city, but outside the city limits, it's pretty much 50 miles of suburban sprawl and then nothing but cornfields.
A few exceptions:
The tony North Shore suburbs are very nice all the way from Evanston up through Lake Bluff. Probably not too different than the nicer parts of Long Island.
Southeast of the city along Archer Avenue to Joliet goes through some interesting areas, and has almost a rural feel to it. There's even a few hills.
Further west of Chicago, there are some very scenic lakes and river valleys. Starved Rock, I'm told, even has canyons and waterfalls. I plan on taking a drive out there some Saturday whenever I get a chance.
Outside of Illinois but still close to Chicago, we have places like Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, and the Indiana Dunes.
The Midwest is still no match for the scenic areas in the Northeast, but not without its merits.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I heartily concur. In addition to NYC, I've lived in upstate New York (Ithaca) and downstate Illinois (Champaign-Urbana). Illinois (outside Chicago) is simply more mind-numbingly boring than I had ever imagined -- and, believe me, I looked. There's simply nothing there. I'm still working on my degree there but I couldn't take it any longer and escaped in January when my lease ended.
Maybe it's easier for those who've never experienced anything better, but I just don't know how so many people have no difficulty living there. (Someone even told me that he finds corn fields scenic but is bored by mountains. He's welcome to his opinion but I cannot comprehend it. They all look the same!)
You so exaggerate! There are like 2 OK bars in C-U.
Seriously there is some intellectual stimulation and some cultural diversity in a college town. Ever been to Rantoul or Danville to see the deep midwest?
Many of them don't like the lifestyle available on the prarie, that's why if you're born there with any brains or initative you'll probably end up moving to at least Chicago, maybe LA, Florida or New Mexico. Those that stay- now that's a batch weird psychological profiles. You could make it big in Hollywood by just putting a camera on some of the people I've met.
Fine, there are bars in C-U, but I find that drinking makes me feel like I have a fever. Having just been through that last week, I can definitively state that I have no interest in drinking. (I'll drink a bit of wine with a meal, but drinking for the sake of drinking is just unpleasant.)
Yes, what the university provides is fine -- but I need more than that. I need to be able to step back and look at the world, and if all I see is corn, I'm afraid I'm not satisfied. I once went for a drive down 1st Street to see where it led. After seven or eight miles, I realized it would probably continue to run, straight as an arrow, until it hit a major river. The highlight of the evening was the colorful sign announcing a high-oil hybrid. That's sad.
I've driven around Illinois in search of something a bit more entertaining. The terrain around Danville, Decatur, and Peoria lends some natural interest to those areas, and of course I've been to a few of the state parks, but I'm afraid my New York experience has set my standards too high for Illinois state parks.
"Where are you from originally?"
To non New Yorker's I respond "Brooklyn".
To New Yorker's I respond "Cypress Hills". This always results in a puzzled expression. I try to explain where I lived, and the reponse is, "Oh, you mean East New York!"
I have the impression that 9 out of 10 New Yorker's have no clue as to where Cypress Hills is. I can't say anything since I moved out 40 years ago, and these people still live in New York!
Cypress Hills has a much different feel than East New York, even many years ago. They're only physically close.
My last Brooklyn digs were on E.13th Street, between between S and T. The neighborhood actually had a proper, non-BS name, "Homecrest"--a block away was Homecrest Avenue. But I always said "Sheepshead Bay," because that clicked in people's minds, but by me Sheepshead Bay doesn't really start until south of Neck Rd.
OT--Until the Brighton Line was put in the cut c.1907, Newkirk Avenue station was called "South Midwood," but in my growing up years in Flatbush this wuldn't have been NORTH of Midwood proper, and in the southern part of what we'd call Flatbush. I suppose the "South" part of the station possibly dates from the old Dutch in which Flatbush and Midwood were more or less the same area.
Paul, technically, I believe the area just immediately SOUTH and EAST of the Newkirk is referred to as South Greenfield (besides the classy residential area of Ditmas Park that lies within).
BMTman
No, Doug, the area south and east of Newkirk Avenue station is known as Fiske Terrace, as was the Avenue H station for a few years.
A few before and after (grade crossing elimination) Brighton names:
Cortelyou Road was Avenue C.
Newkirk Avenue was South Midwood.
Avenue J was Manhattan Terrace.
Avenue M was Elm Avenue (different street) and before that, South Greenfield.
Just for the record, there was a station sign at Albemarle Road for Prospect Park South for a few years before the elimination, but I don't think the trains ever made regular stops there.
Paul, am I correct that South Greenfield was FURTHER south -- like closer to Ave M and the old Vitagraph studios?? (almost before Homecrest?)
Yes, Doug, the station for Vitagraph at Avenue M/Elm Avenue was South Greenfield.
Was "South Greenfield" ever south of a main "Greenfield" or was it just a southern green field and thus got its name?
Anybody know of where I can find a large scale map that shows the borders between the old Kings County towns? I got data from the map on the LIRR History part of Paul Matus's site, but that doesn't clear up some ambiguities.
There is one guy who probably has EVERY map ever produced about Brooklyn. His name is Brian Merlis (aka 'Mr. Brooklyn'). Unfortunately, he ain't likely to be parting with any of them in the near future.
BMTman
Reproductions are good. He could reproduce all of those maps for which the copyright has lapsed.
>>>There is one guy who probably has EVERY map ever produced about Brooklyn. His name is Brian
Merlis (aka 'Mr. Brooklyn'). Unfortunately, he ain't likely to be parting with any of them in the near
future. <<<
For the right price, he would. I plan to see him later this month for pics of early Kings Highway, for a page for
www.forgotten-ny.com
His collection is truly prodigious. He is the Barry Halper (Yankees collector) of Brooklyn and NYC nostalgia. He once showed me a pristine copy of a 1920s Belcher Hyde Brooklyn desk atlas...to me, one of the holy grails of Brooklyn street maps. They have one at the Brooklyn Business Library but it's all rotten and falling apart...
I'm not sure about "Greenfield." My guess is yes, but that's only a guess.
The problem in routing out old names is that the incorporated political subdivisions (in NY, cities and villages) and the statutory ones (if that's the correct term--counties, towns) are easy to trace, because they have legal boundries and clear documentation. So you'll have no trouble going to, say, the Brooklyn or NY Public Libraries and tracing the exact borders of Brooklyn City, Flatbush Town, Flatbush Village, Flatlands Town, etc., etc. at different times.
When you get to names like "South Greenfield" you need to know whether there was a Greenfield to be south of, was this Greenfield a neighborhood, or maybe a little settlement, or even a real estate name.
And these change over time. Railroad stations pin down names, but they don't necessarily have legal significance. The LIRR renamed its Babylon station "Seaside" for a couple of years in the 19th century, but this was neither a legal name change nor did it last. But you'll find pictures of "Seaside" station.
So you need not one map, but possibly many to do anything like an exhaustive study.
>>>The LIRR renamed its Babylon station "Seaside" for a couple of years in the 19th
century, but this was neither a legal name change nor did it last. But you'll find pictures of "Seaside"
station. <<<
Ron Ziel's "Victorian RR Stations of Long Island" has a complete list of all the wacky LIRR station name changes over the past century. Wyandanch once went to "Wyandance" and then back to Wyandanch for instance...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Railroad stations pin down names, but they don't necessarily have legal significance. The LIRR renamed its Babylon station "Seaside" for a couple of years in the 19th century, but this was neither a legal name change nor did it last. But you'll find pictures of "Seaside" station.
Was the village itself renamed, or just the station?
I think renaming Babylon ststaion "Seaside" was some time in the 1870s or '80s to promote the RR's Fire Island business. Babylon didn't incorporate as a village until 1892, I think. So AFAIK the name never got beyond the station.
Railroads are influential in naming, though. If "Seaside" stayed on the station long enough it might have caught on. My late mother-in-law used to like to tell about "the Welsh people" who named some of the areas west of Philadelphia with names like Llanarch, Bala, Ardmore and Narberth. But these places apparently all got these name in the 1890s when the Pennsy thought they'd sound nice for real estate reasons.
Narberth was simply "Elm" before that. Ardmore was "Athens." Maybe the Welsh people chased out the Greeks. ;-)
It became Midwood. But why? Why did the name Midwood which it seems was synonymous with Flatbush end up being shifted to the former South Greenfield? and when?
I believe 'South Greenfield' only encompasses a very small area that starts at the southern edge of Midwood and extends south to what Paul Matus said was Homecrest. Think of 'South Greenfield' as the neighborhood immediately north of Kings Highway with east-west borders being Ocean Ave. and Coney Island Ave. Very narrow and short area (probably created by Real Estate developers who were eager to create an 'exotic' name for a particular stretch of Midwood that they were trying to sell).
BMTman
I believe 'South Greenfield' only encompasses a very small area that starts at the southern edge of Midwood and extends south to what Paul Matus said was Homecrest. Think of 'South Greenfield' as the neighborhood immediately north of Kings Highway with east-west borders being Ocean Ave. and Coney Island Ave. Very narrow and short area (probably created by Real Estate developers who were eager to create an 'exotic' name for a particular stretch of Midwood that they were trying to sell).
And don't forget the rule of nature - all right, the rule of the real estate industry - under which the boundaries of a 'hood increase in direct proportion to its perceived desirability :-)
Acfually, "South Greenfield" is one of the older station names on the Brighton Line. I case trace it at least to 1885. It predates Manhattan Terrace (Avenue J) and, of course, Avenue H (Fiske Terrace).
There was no settlement to speak of at South Greenfield, and it was early for real estate drumming in that area. The only sizable settlement very close by was Flatlands, the heart of which surrounded current Kings Highway at Flatbush Avenue.
Perhaps "South Greenfield" originally described someone's farm or estate.
Doug,
I think the name is Greenfield, not South Greenfield - I grew up in the area and remember a civil patrol by the Greenfield Civic Action Council. Regarding Midwood and Flatbush, I'm remember that when growing up I used to describe the area I was from as Flatbush, even though it is clearly Midwood - when I mentioned the name Midwood at that time, I would get blank stares, even from people living in adjacent neighborhoods. Incidentally, Greenfield is a sudivision of Midwood - I think it runs from East 16th to Ocean Avenue, and from the LIRR cut in the north - I'm not sure what the southern boundry is.
subfan
See my response to Doug re: South Greenfield. My Uncle Sandy lived on E.19th and Newkirk until he died a few years ago at age 90. We called that Flatbush. My aunt lived on E.24th between J and K and everyone there called it Midwood. My dad said Midwood was part of Flatbush. He was born near Coney Island Avenue (the other side of the tracks, literally and figuratively), in 1908 and told me about the orchards that were still around in his youth.
Long ago and far away.
Paul,
I lived on East 19th too, near Avenue L - everyone there used to call it Flatbush when I was younger (1970's), but started referring to it as Midwood some time in the 1980's, probably to distinguish it from the areas near Church Avenue, which were preceived as not as desirable any more (no offence intended to anyone). It was interesting; there was one older gentleman on the block who had lived there since the late 1890's who had pictures of the block when it was a watermelon field.
BTW, Elm Avenue is still there, at least in part - it runs from Coney Island Ave. to Avenue M between East 15 and East 16 - right at the Brighton line, then picks up again to run from East 17 to East 18. It is one of several remnants of the old Midwood street system that can be seen in the area.
subfan
Ditmas Park is adjacent to Kensington, If you cross coney Island avenue going from that area, If one lives on avenue H around there, they would be living in Midwood they say, If you live between Ocean Parkway and Coney Island ave on 18th avenue thru ave H you'd be living in Parkville, just thought I'd throw that in.
>>>Paul, technically, I believe the area just immediately SOUTH and EAST of the Newkirk is referred to
as South Greenfield (besides the classy residential area of Ditmas Park that lies within). <<<
Older maps from the late 1800s show South Greenfield as a small town along the RR. At this point Flatbush was mostly farms with small villages scattered along main routes like what would become Flatbush Ave and Kings Highway.
Today, a reminder of S. Greenfield are a set of streets that don't follow the grid and are named for trees, like Locust, Cedar, Chestnut, etc. I suppose when they cut the newer streets through, the property owners along these streets wouldn't budge and so Brooklyn was built around them. Shades of early 20th Century NIMBYism!
My question is, where was Greenfield, if there was a South Greenfield?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm the first one to admit that Cypress Hills is a strange name for a community in Brooklyn. I recall one response was "You lived in a cemetary?"
Karl, there is also a Cypress Hills in California. I believe it is an area near East LA.
BMTman
Doug, I'm sure that you know there is a Brooklyn in Maryland, in fact there is also one in Pennsylvania.
And in Minnesota.
And a Manhattan in Illinois not far south of Chicago. Far enough from the city to not be a suburb until recently, but close enough that one of the commuter rail lines will be extended there in the next 5-10 years. Then, one will be able to take a train from downtown Chicago to the heart of Manhattan without using Amtrak. :^)
Brooklyn in Maryland is a community in South Baltimore. Just like the one in New York, you have to go over the bridge (Hanover Street in our case) to get there. Brooklyn is a nice, middle class, working neighborhood.
Brooklyn in Maryland is a community in South Baltimore. Just like the one in New York, you have to go over the bridge (Hanover Street in our case) to get there. Brooklyn is a nice, middle class, working neighborhood.
There's also a Brooklyn neighborhood in Waterbury, Connecticut, south of Downtown on the west side of the Naugatuck River. It used to be a working-class community, home to many immigrants from Lithuania, but today is scarcely more than a ghetto.
Brooklyn in Pennsylvania is a tiny little farming community of about 250, really out in the country in Susquehanna County.
There is a Brooklyn, Ohio just outside Cleveland.
:-) Andrew
People are just dying to get in there....
;-D Andrew
Rim shot!
I'm the first one to admit that Cypress Hills is a strange name for a community in Brooklyn. I recall one response was "You lived in a cemetary?"
I suppose the (live) residents of Woodlawn have the same problem!
That never occurred to me. I'm glad that my old neighborhood isn't the only one thought to be a cemetery.
A co-worker who lives at P & East 13th claims it's in Sheepshead Bay. I think that's Midwood, and that Sheepshead starts below Avenue S. Some call the area between P and S between McDonald and Nostrand 'Kings Highway'.
While Midwood is a very old name, it's come to symbolize where people who think they're too 'good' to live in Flatbush say they live instead. Kensington's taken on a similar meaning.
As for me, I say "Flushing". That's good enough for most non-Queensites. Those familiar with the area know there are many subareas of Flushing: Queensborough Hill, Kew Garden Hills, Broadway, Murray Hill, Auburndale, Flushing Suburban, Hillcrest, Cunningham Park North. Then I say "Mitchell Gardens, off Union Street." If that doesn't do it, I say "Pathmark".
I grew up in Whitestone, but very close to the confluence of that locality, Flushing and Bayside. Some reference books say Whitestone is completely north of the Cross Island between the Whitestone and Throgs Neck Bridges, and anything south of the parkway is Flushing.
To further clarify, I'd say by the McDonald's on Francis Lewis. Every nighttime drag racer in the metropolitan area seemed to know that one.
Bayside has
While Midwood is a very old name, it's come to symbolize where people who think they're too 'good' to live in Flatbush say they live instead. Kensington's taken on a similar meaning.
While Kensington is a "I don't want to be in Flatbush" sort of thing, today's Midwood was never part of Flatbush. It was in Gravesend.
Kensington is a distinct neighborhood with its own atmosphere unrelated to Flatbush, everything north of 18th avenuebetween CI avenue and Mcdonald Avenue to Coortelyu Road. with Ditmas being its primary shopping area, once upon a time it was 18th avenue, but now ditmas avenue leads the way with many new shops and buisnesses opening up in recent months going along with the increasing real estate prices there.
>>While Kensington is a "I don't want to be in Flatbush" sort of thing<<
Come down to Philly, and NOBODY wants to be in Kensington.
What's the difference between Flatbush and Midwood?
I know lots of people who tell me they live in Flatbush, but others claim they really live in Midwood.
My grandparents, for instance, lived on I between 23rd and 24th. To them and their community, this was always Flatbush. (I remember when they moved to Flatbush -- specifically to Flatbush. They previously lived in Bensonhurst.) Yet others have told me that they actually lived in Midwood, and that Flatbush actually referred to the (entirely distinct, although not terribly distant) neighborhood around the terminus of the 2 train. So who's right? Is it possible that an entire community living in the neighborhood -- probably the largest community living in the neighborhood -- doesn't even know what it's called? (I have my own opinions on these matters, but I'll allow others to comment.)
What's the difference between Flatbush and Midwood?
I know lots of people who tell me they live in Flatbush, but others claim they really live in Midwood.
Midwood is considered somewhat more upscale than Flatbush. As a result, people who tend to be more concerned with status might be likely to say Midwood.
As one who grew up in the Midwood zip code (11230) and went to Midwood HS, I always thought Midwood was a sub-section of Flatbush, which, in my own mind, was a large area bounded by McDonald Av on the west, Kings Highway on the south and southeast, maybe Utica Av on the east and somewhere between Empire Blvd and Eastern Parkway on the north, including the Parade Grounds in Prospect Park, while the Midwood section was inside it, with Foster Av on the north, Ocean Parkway on the west, Av M on the south, Nostrand on the east north to the Junction, and then Flatbush back to Foster. National Geographic, in an article on Brooklyn in the 1980's, claimed the area I lived in was called Ditmas Park. Frankly, I had never heard that term before that.
Ditmas Park was a nice upscale real estate development running from Dorchester Road to Newkirk Avenue on both sides of the Brighton Line. The name goes back to about 1910. Is this where you lived?
Flatbush was the town--there was no town of Midwood, but even back to the Dutch era, Flatbush and Midwood (or their Dutch origin names) were synonymous.
From my memory and usage I saw in the '50s (from people who lived there back to the 'teens or earlier) Flatbush was generally regarded as the area more or less bounded by a line through Prospect Park on the north through to Empire Boulevard (but this was also regarded to sort of include Ebbets Field), Nostrand Avenue on the east, the LIRR on the south and Coney Island Avenue on the west.
South of this with the same east-west boundaries was Midwood down to about Kings Highway.
Out on Long Island a lot of the names of unincorporated areas often follow the school district. If you went to Erasmus you were in Flatbush. If you went to Midwood High...
Midwood is a magnet school. I applied there.
Anyway, what is now Midwood was mainly in Gravesend, not in Flatbush at all.
In my novel I have a character who hails from East NY, in Queens. He lived in the 40s walking to Franklin K. Lane High.
My mother lived in Bklyn but rode the train to Lane in the early 50s. She remembers the area as E. NY, not as Cypress Hills.
East NY is in Brooklyn, not Queens.
subfan
Well, I've just consulted the map that I went by when researching ...
uh-oh.
East NY, right there within the apparent Brooklyn border. It looks like Elderts lane running north from Atlantic to the cemetery (x-street Jamaica) is the demarcation between bklyn & queens. So that places the Cypress hills station in Bklyn? What about 75th/Elderts station? What about the school? Is F.K. Lane in Brk or Queens?
Looks like I'll have to pull my story from publication.
It has never been determined how much, but a portion of Franklin K Lane is in Queens.
Lane does have a mailing address in Brooklyn the last I heard! I think it is 999 Jamaica Ave Brooklyn 11208!
The 1994-95 Directory of Public High Schools lists Lane as a Queens school (that means it's run by the Queens superintendent), but gives its address exactly as you said!
It sounds as if you have access to some good reference material.
Is there any chance that you can determine when Brooklyn's Fairfield Ave's name was changed, and it became an extension of Flatlands Ave?
I never even even knew that happened! Where was the changeover between Fairfield and Flatlands? I assume Williams Avenue. Hagstrom still has the addresses after Williams starting from one even though they get to the 10800s up there. Currently the addresses continue from the 10800s sequentially up to 12755, the highest numbered address in Brooklyn.
And I don't think that my reference material is all that great. The high school directory is given to everyone who goes to the eighth grade in New York City.
In a conversation with BMT Man several months ago, I learned that Fairfield Ave did not exist anymore, and it was now called Flatlands. It must have been some time ago that the change was made because he had not even heard of Fairfield Ave. I'm sure you are right about Williams Ave!
On a Brooklyn Topographical map, the actual division line (at least on the southern edge) is just east of Fountain Avenue -- actually it is almost in mid-stream of Fresh Creek. Howard Beach -- which is in Queens -- starts on the opposite side of Fountain Ave. on the Belt Parkway at that point.
BMTman
Brooklyn City Border/Queens County Border Run Right Thru The Center of the School The Schools Address is in Brooklyn.
I guess the facts of life are that people who said they lived in Cypress Hills as I once did wouldn't say they lived in East New York mainly because of the association with East NY being a bad neighborhood by some people's standards by the late 60's early 70's.
I lived for a few months in 73 on Schenck near Jamaica Ave and had no problems but that was mostly private homes there.
My imaginary border was Crescent St...that Cypress Hills ran from there to the border, north of Atlantic. But it was still the East NY voting didtrict when I lived there and in the 75th police precinct.
Well, I've just consulted the map that I went by when researching ...
uh-oh.
East NY, right there within the apparent Brooklyn border. It looks like Elderts lane running north from Atlantic to the cemetery (x-street Jamaica) is the demarcation between bklyn & queens. So that places the Cypress hills station in Bklyn? What about 75th/Elderts station? What about the school? Is F.K. Lane in Brk or Queens?
Looks like I'll have to pull my story from the shelves.
Cypress Hills is the last community in Brooklyn before Woodhaven, Queens. It is that area bounded by Elderts Lane, Atlantic Ave, Pennsylvania Ave and Jamaica Ave. East New York is in Brooklyn, and is to the west of Cypress Hills.
Are you writing a booK about me? I walked to Franklin K Lane from 1950-1954!
"The Complete Map of Brooklyn (New York City)," published 1976 by Geographia Map Co. Inc. places its East new York designation on an area south of Atlantic. South of Eastern Pkwy, even. Extending north to Jamaica. I see Woodhaven to the east of Elderts as you say. So, according to them, it's larger than the way you're defining it. But these neighborhood designations are not given specific map boundaries, so it's all kinda vague.
The area you described appears to be south of, not west of the cemetery. A big green areea labelled Cypress Hills Cemetery is immediately north of Jamaica. Other adjacent greenery has other names, "lutheran cemetery," "cemetery of the everglades" "lebanon cemetery."
No, I'm not writing about you. Sorry. Maybe the next one!
Apparently I'll have to revise. I interpreted East NY as part of Queens.
My info is that Lane was a mostly Italian-american school back then (late 40s/50s). True?
I did a websearch on the school back when I was writing in '99 and it seems there was an uproar of parents wanting to transfer students out of fear that the area, and school, had become some kind of a street gang war zone. Sheesh.
I looked up the school's website and read about it. It's a heckuva facility. They didn't make high schools like that out here in Calif.
My mother said John Gotti went there later. Then to Penn State.
No wait a minute, I think she said State Pen.
Cypress Hills has sometimes been thought of as being part of East New York. I would like to correct my western boundary. Cypress Hills starts at the junction of Fulton St, Atlantic Ave & Broadway. This is several blocks west of what I originally told you. The Highland Park area is often considered as part of CH, even thought it is north of Jamaica Ave. The same could be said for City Line which is south of Atlantic.
CH is indeed south of the CH Cemetery, as well as a number of other small cemeteries. Incidentally, it's Cemetery of the Evergreens, not Everglades.
My recollection is that the student population of Lane in those days was evenly mixed between Afro-American, Italian, Irish & German.
No matter how you figure it, East New York is in Brooklyn, not Queens!
and its primarily a Black neighborhood, East New York, Brownsville, Cypress Hill, Bushwick, Junction, Bed Stuy, Ocean Hill form what now some people call the "central brooklyn ghetto"
You said it my friend. Don't we know it....
We were down there a couple of weeks ago under the EL "3" line and the "L". What a bloody mess, garbage all over the place and vacant lots down Livonia ave. Ghetto yeah baby, you said it. I can't imagine what ENY looked like 15 years ago if today it looks like this. Many new townhouses being built. This must have been a ghost town, with nothing but vacant lots.
How does a city get to be this way???
I read "evergreens" and wrote "everglades." I must have been living in florida for too long, (21 months. yep. too long).
I certainly stand corrected. East NY and Queens are two separate places, I thought they were one within the other. Thanks for pointing it out.
Gentlemen, might I recommend a book that I recently purchased on ebay that could help out in this area. It is called, "A History of New Lots: including the Villages of East New York, Cypress Hills, and Brownsville", by Alter F. Landesman, published by Kennikat Press, 1977, Port Washington. It is a very good reference source for the history of the New Lots area from the days of the American Revolution to the early 20th Century. It is available at most major libraries since this is obviously an out-of-print item.
I just got it down from the bookshelf and will be studying it over the weekend. So if any of you guys have any specific questions, you might want to contact me off line and I'll see what I can do...
BMTman
So, to make sure I understand, if someone was living near Elderts Ln, which is the border between E NY and Queens, they would consider themselves either a resident of E. NY/Bklyn or a resident of Queens. People (some at least) in common usage don't combine E. NY with Queens. Even if they went to F.K. Lane, which is and has been given addresses in both Bk and Q. Correct?
People who live on the west side of the street on Elderts Lane live in Cypress Hills, Brooklyn. Those who live on the east side of the street live in Woodhaven, Queens. The county line runs right dowm the middle of the street.
It is my belief that Franklin K Lane is geographically on the line with 3/4 of the school in Brooklyn, and the remainder in Queens. The principal's office used to be on the east end of the building, which would put it in Queens. Today's B of E apparently considers it a Queen's high school, but 50 years ago I thought of it as a Brooklyn school.
(I looked up the school's website and read about it. It's a heckuva facility. They didn't make high schools like that out here in Calif.)
If you are in California, then you should know that East New York was a working class/middle class area down on the outwash plain. Cypress Hills is up on the terminal morraine, with the Interboro (now Jackie Robinson) Parkway and the cemetaries above it and East New York below. You can only get down to East New York on a few street. The hill is such that it reminds me of Yonkers, my hometown -- there are very few hills on Long Island.
So Cypress Hills was and is a little ritzier. Now Cypress Hills is working class/middle class while East New York is dirt poor.
(I have the impression that 9 out of 10 New Yorker's have no clue as to where Cypress Hills is. I can't say anything since I moved out 40 years ago, and these people still live in New York!)
I certainly know where it is. Perhaps you can tell me about that big, fancy looking apartment building up on Highland Blvd. (I think). Who lived there that such a high cost building was financially feasible? It certainly towers over the landscape below like a castle.
Highland Blvd (Vito P Batista Blvd) is in Highland Park. Cypress Hills is south of Jamaica Avenue.
I hesitate to correct you, but at least one published writer has included the area in Cypress Hills. Everything up to the Interboro Pkwy, including the Ridgewood Reservior has been considered to be part of Cypress Hills.
I would like to refer you to the book The Neighborhoods of Brooklyn, but I can't remember the author's name.
I have vague memories of several very nice homes on Highland Blvd. Travel routes in our family changed, and I think that the last time I was in the immediate area was when I was 10, about 1945. I don't recall the building that you refer to, but perhaps it wasn't even there back then.
I live in Swindon in the UK. A former railway town and home of the Great Western Railway. For the past three years 2.1% of my time has been spent in New York City and New Jersey in various hotels whilst enjoying my Subway Tours with the help of "subtalk friends".
Simon
Swindon UK
As everyone else is saying, it depends who I'm talking to and where I am. If I'm out of state, I'll say California, the Bay Area. If in-state, I'll name the city, (non-descrept suburb Fremont) but if I'm in another part of Calif, I might have to specify the BAy Area.
More pertinently, when someone asks where I'm from, I say Brooklyn. If they're familiar with NYC, I'll add Bedford-Stuyvesant. Everyone knows where Brooklyn is, and everyone there knows Bed-Stuy.
I've always appreciated Spike Lee for putting Bed-Stuy on the map, for better or worse.
Uh...correction, Spike Lee is from Fort Greene (and before then, Cobble Hill).
Sorry about my 'Crooklyn' technicalities....:-)
BMTman
I'm going by 'Do the Right Thing,' 'She's Gotta Have It,' Jungle Fever, all of which takes place in Brooklyn, correct?
Yes, the action takes place in Bed-Stuy for the film 'Do the Right Thing'. Most of 'She's Gotta Have It" was shot in Downtown Brooklyn and Fort Greene. 'Jungle Fever' on the other hand, was shot primarily in the borough of Manhattan and Brooklyn's Old Mill Basin neighorhood(which doubled for Bensonhurst).
BMTman
Now you got me. I'm not clear on what locale Jungle Fever was supposed to be taking place in. I know Bensonhurst, but where did W. Snipes live? Harlem or was it supposed to be Bklyn?
harlem, now that I think a little more. Right?
I've always appreciated Spike Lee for putting Bed-Stuy on the map, for better or worse.
Ans Billy joel, before him.
Well, usually I just say, "in Relative Obscurity," but if I'm feeling like elaborating...
Answers to "Where do you live?":
To people in New York City and vicinity:
"Astoria" (even though I'm technically in "Long Island City," which seems to evoke images of abandoned factories and strip clubs), although those of us who live in my neighborhood who are not from New York originally will still say we are going "into the city" when we're talking about hopping on the 'N' or the 'R' for a 10 minute trip to Manny-hattie.
To most people where I grew up:
"New York City."
To the less geographically-challenged where I grew up:
"Queens."
Answers to "Where did you grow up?"
[a question asked of me by New Yorkers when they hear my lack-of-accent, mid-american speech (not midwest american speech, mind you -- my vowels are most definitely not as flat as the topography between the Alleghenies and the Rockies):
To people in New York City and vicinity:
"Pennsylvania" (most of them are then thinking I mean either Philadelphia or the Poconos)
To the less geographically-challenged in New York City and vicinity:
"Harrisburg," which might as well be "Columbus" or "Springfield" since the world ends at the Hudson, as you know. Sometimes if people still look at me blankly I mention Three Mile Island and challenge them to turn off the lights to see if I glow.
To people where I grew up, or people who look like they might belong to Book of the Month Club:
"Camp Hill" which is to Harrisburg what Darien is to New York (small, insular, and all-white, unfortunately), and also the home of the mail-order book concern.
--KP
Descriptions I always use that never work:
1 - Orange County - too many of them in this country, and even in Manhattan no one seems to know where it is. Every time I use it, I have to add on the "New York", and then it still doesn't work.
2 - Upstate - only valid in the New York metropolitan area, and always requires elaboration - see #1.
3 - Downstate - I use this one whenever I'm up here in "Central New York" - see #2.
4 - New York - "Oh, you mean the city?" - ugh!
5 - near Newburgh - only a select few know where Newburgh is. West Point sometimes works.
6 - Washingtonville - not a chance in hell.
6 - Washingtonville - not a chance in hell.
Actually, there are a few of us who know where Washingtonville is... the late Ralph Coon (a dear family friend and classmate of my parents at Syracuse University, way back in the dim dark ages) served many years as principal of the high school there and I think perhaps as superintendent before he retired around 1980.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm FROM New York, but I now live in (suburban) Boston.
Of course, when I was young and we lived in Howard Beach, we'd talk about going into "the city." Even when we moved to Roslyn Heights, going to Manhattan was going into "the city," but going to visit Howard Beach was going "to Queens."
I live in Exton, Pa. , which is 30 miles west of Philly. I always tell out of towners I live "close to Philly". I go into Philly for the mass transit, if nothing else.
Chuck Greene
To be honest, I wouldn't know where Exton was if it wasn't for the PRR Main Line stop there, and I'm from Pennsylvania!
Of course, if you say "Harrisburg" to any railfan, they know where you're talking about, thanks to the PRR making it the terminus of Main Line electrification westward, plus Enola yard, etc.
Hey Chuck, Is Exton still home to that nice Entenmann's Outlet Store? It has been years but I think it was on the south side of Route 30!
i hide behide a "800" number so i get the question "Where am i speaking to?" my answer is the jersey swamps!! if they need more info across the river from gaint stadium. i work in secaucus nj
When I'm outside Brooklyn, I say I live in Brooklyn. If someone asks what part, I say Windsor Terrace. When they say "huh?", I say near Park Slope. I try to get in a reference to the F train where possible.
When asked where I'm from, I say Yonkers. When they say "huh?," I say just north of the Bronx.
I can understand not knowing where Windsor Terrace is. But not knowing Yonkers is absolute insanity.
I think it is a 4-level response:
1. If I am within Queens, I say "Woodhaven". (When I was a kid, the answer was "QV" -- usually not "Queens Village", but "cue vee".)
2. If I am in another borough, or in nearby areas like North Jersey, Long Island, or Westchester, then the answer is "Queens".
3. If I am talking to someone from elsewhere within the Northeast, I say "New York City". (That's "New York City" as opposed to "New York" so that they don't mistake "New York" for the state, and ask "what city?")
4. When talking to anyone else, I say "New York", and that is always understood to mean the City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I Was Born In The City Of Brooklyn In 1971 Lived In Ridgewood On Brooklyn City/Queens County Border, City Line/East New York City Of Brooklyn, & Ozone Park Queens. I Now Live In Tempe, Arizona A Subburb Of Both Phoenix (Largest City In Az) And Mesa Arizona (2/3 Largest City In Az) But for Out Of State People I Live In Phoenix.
State of Disbelief.
As you point out, it depends on the context. In the summer, we lived in Rockaway. When you said you were going to the "city", or, you were asked "Where do you live in the 'city'?" it meant where do you live the other 10 months of the year, which, in my case, was Brooklyn. When in Brooklyn, going to the 'city' meant going to Manhattan. When out of town, I tell people I'm originally from "the city", which, given my accent, they appear to know that I mean "New York". If they respond with a "Yeah? Wheah?" then I tell them Brooklyn. If they respond with an even more excited "Yeah? Wheah?" then I tell them "near Ocean Parkway", since I lived "officially" in what appears to be a transitional area between Midwood, Flatbush, Boro Park, Bensonhurst, Parkville, Ditmas Park, etc.
If the person asking me is from Brooklyn or otherwise in a position to be familiar about Brooklyn, then I say Mill Basin.
If he asks where that is, I say behind Kings Plaza.
Any other part of the world I say Brooklyn.
If somebody doesn't know where that is I say New York (never city).
If somebody doesn't know where that is I say "probably Earth but I'm not sure" (hasn't happened yet).
Reading some of the responses, this is not something that's unique to NYC. Everyone in the world does this. Take me, my handle say I'm from Atlanta, but I live outside the city. Talking to someone in Atlanta, I'll say I live in Gwinnett, or as some of the radio stations say, I represent 85 North. When I go to Brazil, I say I'm going to Sao Paulo, because no one knows where Sao Bernardo do Campo is in that city.
I'm from Manhattan originally (and not from one of the ritzy parts, either). When I moved to Los Angeles years later, I'd always get that snide, "Hey....you've got an accent!" and I'd always answer, "No I don't......YOU do!". Angelinos always assumed I was from Brooklyn because I didn't have some newscaster-like patrician accent. When I told them I was from Manhattan, they often responded, "I didn't know anyone actually lived there!" Others thought I meant that I was from Manhattan Beach (a costal community in Los Angeles; many Angelinos are just as myopic as New Yorkers, refusing to believe that there is a world that exists a few hundred miles away).
As far as people from Brooklyn and Queens being more New Yorkish than Manhattanites: unfortunately, that tends to be true; However...don't hold it against us that we're (or were) Manhattanites. The problem with Manhattan is that it always had a rather severe caste system built into it. You always had the old money and the noveau riche living in places like Park Avenue or East End Avenue or around Central Park, and the working-class people who lived in places Like the Lower East Side, Hell's Kitchen, and Harlem. People are often sized up and judged by their accents, much in the way people from England brand each other.
I grew up in a lower-middle-class environment (Stuyvesant Town). I was not acepted by the kids below 14th Street, who saw me as "rich", nor the snooty people I went to Hebrew school with (who were from the Upper East Side). The Stuyvesant Town kids were an island unto themselves. Later, when I attended Stuyvesant High School, most students were commuters. Almost all of my high school friends were from Brooklyn and Queens.
I also witnessed the caste snobbery in my parent's lives. My father worked as a high-ranking civil servant and was later a city official. His ethnicity and origins (working-class Jew from Harlem) and his thick New York accent set him apart from the people brought in under the administration of John Lindsay. You could almost see the imaginary line drawn in the sand. My dad's friends and loyal colleagues were the Irish and Italian people he had grown up around. The Lindsay appointees were, for the most part, Ivy-League educated, Silk-Stocking District people who thumbed their nose down at the old guard, at least until they screwed up to the point where they needed the input from the lower-status (in their eyes) "lifers".
I may may be from Manhattan, but don't ever tell me I'm not a real New Yorker, or I'll have to kick your ass!
:-)
Depends on who I'm talking to and when.
When I was growing up, it was "upstate" to someone from the City and "Poughkeepsie" to someone from almost anywhere else.
When we lived in Chicago, it was "Rogers Park" to a Chicagoan and "Chicago" to anyone else.
When we lived in Virginia, it was "Tidewater" to someone from Richmond, "the Peninsula" to someone from Norfolk or Virginia Beach, and "Williamsburg" to anyone else - although it took some convincing for some people to believe that there actually were houses and apartments in Williamsburg, besides the restored colonial ones.
When we're talking about our North Carolina home, it's "Cypress Creek" or "Bunn" to anyone in Franklin County, "Franklin County" to folks from Raleigh, and "between Raleigh and Rocky Mount" to anyone else.
When we're talking about our New Jersey house, it's "exit 105" to a New Jerseyan, the "Jersey Coast" to someone from the City, and "Joisey" to most everyone else. And, of course, when talking to a Southerner, we simply refer to it as "the armpit of America" - no further explanation is needed, they know exactly where we're talking about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When we're talking about our North Carolina home, it's "Cypress Creek"
Do you happen to work for the Globex Corporation?
No, I work for a major telecommunications company... Cypress Creek comprises the area of Franklin County east of the Tar River and south of Cedar Rock township (roughly the line drawn by NC 561 from Margaret east to the Nash County line). It has no incorporated communities (Bunn, which I use as a reference point, is actually west of the Tar River in Dunn township - it's just the nearest town, and where we get our mail), although there are several crossroads (the largest being Seven Paths) and a developing area known as Lake Royale.
I assume there's a hidden meaning in the Globex reference?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Globex is a company run by Hank Scorpio that build a planned community called Cypress Creek for its employees. Cypress Creek is a pleasant community with a Hammock District on Third and mailboxes instead of bums.
Scorpio is the arch-villain that took over the East Coast a few years back. He also bought the Denver Broncos and gave it to a former employee from Springfield.
Is Poughkeepsie "upstate"? I think of Upstate as being, like, Albany and west and north of there.
I wonder where someone from Albany or Syracuse would consider Poughkeepsie?
Before I left NYC, I thought anything north of the Bronx was upstate!
I'll bet my friends in Rouses Point don't think that Poughkeepsie is upstate!
Is Poughkeepsie "upstate"? I think of Upstate as being, like, Albany and west and north of there.
To the extent that "Upstate" can be defined in a technical, non-anecdotal manner, it would include the counties that are not part of the New York CMSA. North of the city, the counties within the CMSA (and therefore not Upstate) are Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess. Poughkeepsie is of course part of Dutchess County and therefore is not Upstate.
North of the city, the counties within the CMSA ... are Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess.
That's true today, but wasn't when I was growing up there in the '50s and '60s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not so fast ... I have friends that live in Monroe, NY (Orange County) and many of my city friends refer to them as being "upstate". I don't agree with the CMSA assessment at all.
And to this day my parents will tell friends or associates that they'ree "visiting their son upstate, and I live in northern Rockland County.
Ask this question to 1000 people; you'll get 1000 different answers.
--Mark
But with more and more people who WORK in the city moving up here, its becoming less and less 'upstate';I remember telling people down in the city whee I was from, and they would just look strangely at you [Middletown? Wheres that??]NOW it seems that everyone has a cousin that has moved up here,or a co-worker, etc....especially firemen and cops....AND MTA workers [to put this sort of on topic!]:my cousins house,for example, was bought by a NYCTA station agent.
But with more and more people who WORK in the city moving up here, its becoming less and less 'upstate';I remember telling people down in the city whee I was from, and they would just look strangely at you [Middletown? Wheres that??]NOW it seems that everyone has a cousin that has moved up here,or a co-worker, etc....especially firemen and cops....AND MTA workers [to put this sort of on topic!]:my cousins house,for example, was bought by a NYCTA station agent.
It's not surprising that many transit workers would move to distant suburbs. For the most part, they don't work "normal" business hours and therefore can take advantage of off-hours commuting.
The freakiest thing is finding multiple copies of The Middletown Times Herald-Record on the subway....
North of the city, the counties within the CMSA ... are Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess.
That's true today, but wasn't when I was growing up there in the '50s and '60s.
The Census Bureau seems to have a policy of expanding CMSA's, to encompass areas once considered beyond the core city's sphere of influence. It's probably not a bad idea, all things considered, as it reflects economic and demographic reality to some extent. Increased housing prices and the dispersal of jobs into suburban and exurban areas are the main factors. For instance, Dutchess County is said to be attracting new residents on account of its housing prices, which are more reasonable than those in closer suburbs. While commuting times from much of the county to the city are long, they're not so bad for people working, for example, in Westchester. Parts of the Poconos have attracted New Yorkers for the same reasons. These areas may seem remote with respect to the city, but they aren't necessarily so remote for people working in New Jersey. These trends occur in other parts of the country as well.
Of course, the northern New York counties in question - Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess - all have commuter rail service to the city (or at least Hoboken).
Cities have always expanded. It has always been mainly because of population increases. What do you think causes the closer in suburbs to become too expensive for some?
My opinion on the matter: Upstate begins with Putnam and Orange Counties. Therefore Dowstate is New York City, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, and Rockland counties. Upstate is everything but.
Of course, that depends heavily on point of view.
:-) Andrew
Mount Vernon? :0)
Larry Gelbart did a parody of the old Warner Bros. double features about 20 years ago, called "Movie Movie" in which part of one plot involved a character having to go away upstate -- upstate in this case being New Rochelle. I doubt the gag went over outside the tri-state area.
When my father took me to New Rochelle in 1969, there were still farms everywhere. It really felt like another world.
Not anymore, obviously.
But thanks to a lot of dedicated people, the Nature Conservancy, the local chapters of Sierra Club, former governors and yes, even Gov. Pataki (he helped save Sterling Forest, among other achievements), New York State has more green space in it, proportionally and otherwise, than many other states in the Union...
Did you know that the LARGEST PARK in the Continetal 48 states is in New York State?
Did you know that you have more people in Manhattan, south of Canal Street, than we have in the whole state of North Dakota?
Elias
Since North Dakota is MORE populated than Alaska, that means that more people live south of Canal than in the largest state by land area.
Today, upstate would have to be fifty miles north of Route 84. Of course, in past times Commodore Vanderbilt was considered crazy building Grand Central so far uptown, and the Dakota apartment building in 1884 got its name becuase it was so far up north it might have been in the Dakota territory. Times do change.
There are some that would put "upstate" as anything north of 96th Street ... and folks up here would say anything from Dutchess and Ulster south would be "metro area" ... but in general, I'd say you're right. Strictly speaking though, anything in the "MTA taxation" zones would qualify as far as the state is concerned so you'd end up including Dutchess, Ulster, Columbia and Rensselaer counties as "downstate" also since they pay MTA taxes. We don't in Albany county but the only way out of here is Gray running mutt bus lines ...
(Ulster, Columbia and Rensselaer counties as "downstate" also since they pay MTA taxes).
Correction: MTA taxes stop at Orange and Dutchess. These can be considered either Downstate (some commuters in some areas) or Upstate (mostly rural).
After the last census, both Orange and Dutchess were part of the New York CMSA. Like all CMSAs, New York was divided into component PMSAs. One included Nassau and Suffolk. Another included New York City, Westchester, Rockland and Putnam. Dutchess and Orange were each separate PMSAs in the NY CMSA. They were after 1970 and 1980 as well.
Everything else is considered "Upstate" by everyone except the Regional Plan Association, which includes Ulster, Sullivan, and Hartford! counties in the NY Metro Area. And the BEA "economic areas," which place much of Vermont, all of Connecticut, and a good chunk of Pennslyvania in New York's orbit.
BTW, MTA taxes for Columbia are a big issue. People there want MTA service for second homeowners, but are unwilling to pay the tax. They are demanding something for nothing, and hoping NYC can be made to pay. The MTA wants to extend the Hudson line to Rhinecliff, but Rhinebeck residents don't want it, because it might attract the lesser people. The City of Hudson wants it, but is outside the MTA area. Etc, etc.
I sit corrected then ... last I heard, Greene county (because of the Hudson stop) and Columbia and Rensselaer (because of the coming high speed commuter to NYC) were going to be added to MTA taxes (Ulster because of Poughkeepsie across the river) according to something I read a while back in the Albany Times Union ... I threw those in because they were at least proposed ...
But a lot of people in the city think anything north of the Bronx is Canada. :)
I was right! Mount Vernon is in Saskatchewan (sp) !!
--Mark
Actually, Northwest Territories, but you've got it right. Heh.
Hudson is in Columbia County. Columbia is east of the Hudson River (part of NYSDOT region 8, but that's another story.) Greeene County is to the west (NYSDOT Reg. 1.)
:-) Andrew
Howdy ... when I referred to Greene county vs. Hudson, has to do with the wily mindset of how taxation works up here. Greene county residents get to pay MTA tax because there's a bridge between Catskill and Hudson so it is assumed that the farmers in Greene county commute to Manhattan on the train to rotate their crops ... that was the basis for the connection I made there. Albany county is right north of Greene, so we consider those kids "downstaters" ... heh.
But Columbia isn't in the MTA service area either. Duthcess is as far north as Metro-North goes. And I'm pretty sure it dosen't include Ulster either, even though parts of it are close to Poughkeepsie.
:-) Andrew
Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Richmond, Bronx, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess make up the MTA district and corporations doing business there (except for S corporations) get to pay the 17% surtax. Everone else is exempt.
Again, this is a proposed EXPANSION of the MTA tax district which would (eventually) include the Hudson line all the way to Rensselaer and Albany (to pay for "Empire Corridor service") ... apparently the politicos are planning to extend from Po'town to at LEAST Hudson as part of Metro North ... I admit I haven't paid all that much attention to the details that were proposed as I have no real reason to want to go to NYC now that Disney's taken over 42 St ...
But yes, right now, Poughkeepsie is the end of the MTA district for the moment ...
Actually, Columbia is in Region 1...trust me, I wound up using the Region 8 part of our operating authority (Dutchess) to get our brand new ambulette inspected when the Region 1 folks said that it "would never pass" because it had a stretcher!
Check the NYSDOT reference markers (on state highways.) Columbia County is represented on the second line as county "81". You might be thinking of DMV regions.
A complete list (from memory, believe it or not!):
Region 1 Capital District/Eastern Adirondacks
11-Albany
12-Essex
13-Greene
14-Rensaleer
15-Saratoga
16-Schenectady
17-Warren
18-Washington
Region 2 Mohawk Valley/Western Adirondacks
21-Fulton
22-Hamilton
23-Herkimer
24-Madison
25-Montgomery
26-Oneida
Region 3 Syracuse/Eastern Finger Lakes
31-Cayuga
32-Cortland
33-Onondaga
34-Oswego
35-Seneca
36-Tompkins
Region 4 Rochester/Genesse/Western Finger Lakes
41-Genesse
42-Livingston
43-Monroe
44-Ontario
45-Orleans
46-Wyoming
47-Wayne*
Region 5 Buffalo/Niagara Frontier
51-Cattaragus
52-Chautauqua
53-Erie
54-Niagara
Region 6 Southern Tier
61-Allegany
62-Chemung
63-Schyler
64-Steuben
65-Tioga
66-Yates
Region 7 Watertown/North Country
71-Clinton
72-Franklin
73-Jefferson
74-Lewis
75-Saint Lawrence
Region 8 Hudson Valley
81-Columbia
82-Dutchess
83-Orange
84-Putnam
85-Rockland
86-Ulster
Region 9 Binghamton/Central/Western Catskills
91-Broome
92-Chenango
93-Delaware
94-Otsego
95-Schoharie
96-Sulivan
Region 10 Long Island
03-Nassau
07-Suffolk**
Region 11 New York City
X1-Bronx
X2-Kings
X4-New York
X5-Queens
X6-Richmond***
NOTES
*Wayne County used to part of Region 3, thus the slightly off alphabetical listing in Region 4.
**Long Island and New York City used to be a single region, 10, thus the missing numbers in each region.
***In NYC, the number 11 is represented by "X".
:-) Andrew
WHOOPS! I missed "87", which is Westchester.
:-) Andrew
You left out Westchester County which I think begins with 87.
BMTJeff
Using county lines to demarcate CMSA's is necessarily somewhat imprecise. Development and commuting patterns, not to mention spheres of economic influence, frequently don't follow county lines. For instance, the southern part of Dutchess County, up to and including Poughkeepsie, can reasonably be considered part of the New York CMSA, but the case is considerably weaker with respect to the northern part. But the Census Bureau doesn't recognize any borders other than county lines (except possibly in New England), so all of Dutchess is included.
The most extreme example can be found in California, where the Los Angeles CMSA includes all of Riverside and San Bernardino counties, nothwithstanding the fact that both huge counties include long stretches of desert all the way to Arizona and Nevada.
Connecticut and Rhode Island don't exactly have counties, or at least not county government. Fairfield, Litchfiled, New Haven, etc. are all "counties" in name, but have no government except maybe regional divisions of state services. The next real government under the state is the town or city.
:-) Andrew
Massachusetts too.
Alaska doesn't have counties at all. There are boroughs which are similar to counties elsewhere, but 2/3s of the state is not in any borough.
In Louisiana, they're called parishes.
In Virginia, cities are independent of counties. So are Baltimore, MD and St. Louis, MO but there are counties elsewhere in the state.
In Hawaii, the county is the lowest unit of government, there are no municipalities.
In many states (like New York), when a city controls an entire county, the county exists only on paper and the municipality would be a City and County.
Well, in New York there are four town-villages (Harrison, Scarsdale, and Mt. Kisco in Westchester and something in Albany County also, I forget) where the entire township is taken up by an incorporated Village, and the town exists mainly on paper. (I think it's considered a combined form of government.)
The only city in New York State that takes up a whole county takes up five whole counties. Which city is that again? I think it's near Lake Success or something? ;-)
:-) Andrew
There used to be a City and County of New York and City of Brooklyn, County of Kings.
Now THAT's a name. City of Brooklyn, county of KINGS. Not some new inferior version of a stuffy British city.
Some people consider "Upstate" New York to be north of Rockland and Westchester counties. Others might consider "Upstate" New York to begin north of the Hudson Valley region.
BMTJeff
(Using county lines to demarcate CMSA's is necessarily somewhat imprecise. Development and commuting patterns, not to mention spheres of economic influence, frequently don't follow county lines.)
I agree, and perhaps that's why Dutchess and Orange can be considered Upstate or Downstate depending on how you look at it. "Downstate" continues to spread, however.
Many people consider anything north of Westchester and Rockland counties to be "Upstate" New York. Others might consider "Upstate" New York to be anything north of the Hudson Valley. Where "Upstate" New York begins depends upon your viewpoint.
BMTJeff
Yeah, this is a relative term. Basically, since the bulk of the state is far to the north of the "Lower Hudson Valley" (where the straight NY/PA tuens south), then this whole triangular shaped area is "downstate". But when we used to go camping in Orange Co., or top Bear Mtn, etc. we called it "upstate", because it is "up" on a map from us. This area is right across the river and Tappan-Zee Bridge from northern Westchester, so that gets called "Westchester" also. (one of the guys we were posting with is from Hartsdale, and called that "upstate".
Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt. Vernon, and the Pelhams are efinitely too close to NY, and too linked to the Bronx and transit, and too urban to be considered "upstate" in any view. I was in Tuckahoe last week, and that seems like borderline in its atmosphere, and I guess the Scarsdale area would be the same. The Elmsford area and Hartsdale, as I just mentioned, get called "upstate" a lot. White Plains, in the same area seems to urban to be called upstate, though. (Albany is bigger, but White Plains is still very connected to the NYC area. Anything past that can safely be called "upstate", as it is very similar to the Catskill area-- alot of woods, camps, small towns, etc. But once again, from further up, it is still all going to be seen as "downstate".
It seems kind of hard to picture Buffalo as "upstate" because it is so much more West than north of here. So that's more like "overstate" or "outerstate". "Upstate-Downstate" seems to apply more to the Hudson river corridor.
Anything north of 262nd Street.......
I agree with you that "Upstate New York" begins with the areas north of Westchester and Rockland counties. Some city dwellers however consider upstate New York anywhere north of New York City. A few purists might consider upstate New York to begin north of Sullivan, Ulster and Dutchess counties or anywhere north of the Hudson Valley.
BMTJeff
Clearly, Upstate begins at Gun Hill Road.
Equally clear: everything west of the Delaware River is an "Assorted Mid-West State"!
Well, though I disagree with the former, I will say that western New York pretty much is the midwest (I'd start that a little further west than the Delaware River though. Myabe the Finger Lakes.)
:-) Andrew
>>> Clearly, Upstate begins at Gun Hill Road. <<<
That's understandable for those who lived in my East Side neighborhood, since that was the northern terminus of the 3rd Avenue El. The more adventurous of us went as far as 241st Street on the White Plains Line. Anything north of that was clearly "upstate."
Of course "upstate" was really a more nebulous concept to most of us. We knew it contained such places as Ossining and Dannemora, but not necessarily where they were physically located. The term would be used in a sentence like "Joey's gonna be upstate for two more years." :-)
Tom
My take: Upstate New York refers to the part of New York State (outside Long Island) that does not maintain close ties (in terms of commutes, etc.) with NYC. That means that, in general, any area served by commuter rail to NYC is out. Rockland County is not upstate. (Port Jervis may be an exception; I'd consider it borderline upstate.) I'd say that most of Orange isn't upstate either. Newburgh is borderline. Ulster is definitively upstate.
The NY 17 corridor presents a difficulty. Many New Yorkers spend weekends in Sullivan County (moreso in the past than today), but otherwise the area isn't really connected to NYC. I guess I'd call it upstate-with-a-footnote. The part of Sullivan closer to the Delaware is clearly upstate. And Delaware County seems more upstateish than most counties to its north and west.
My take: Upstate New York refers to the part of New York State (outside Long Island) that does not maintain close ties (in
terms of commutes, etc.) with NYC ... The NY 17 corridor presents a difficulty. Many New Yorkers spend weekends in Sullivan County (moreso in the past than today), but otherwise the area isn't really connected to NYC. I guess I'd call it upstate-with-a-footnote.
Litchfield County, Connecticut presents a similar situation. If it were in New York State, I suppose it would be another example of Upstate-with-a-footnote.
In 1982, New York State started a "temporary" surcharge on corporations called the MTA Surcharge. I put it in quotes becuase originally, it was supposed to be for only two years to close a budget surplus, and it still exists today, with no sign of going away. It affects 12 counties in the MTA district (wherever Metro North and LIRR service riders). The 12 counties are the 5 boroughs, Nassau and Suffolk on L.I., Westchester, Rockland, Dutchess, Putnam and Orange.
I guess you can officially call anything north of that "upstate" however, Sullivan County is still fairly close. Let's call the number of downstate counties 13* with the rest being upstate. There may be some who consider upstate only north of Albany, but at that rate, there will be no more upstate New York.
The MTA district is 12 counties. What's the 13th? You never defined your asterisk.
AHEM....We [meaning Orange Co..but especially us in the Middletown-Goshen axis] USED to be upstate..now we consider ourselves part of the metro area...Upstate generally to us means anything north/west of Monticello/Liberty these days..You would be surprised how many people live up in the Monticello/Liberty area drive down 17 to take the train from Middletown...
For many NYers it begins at 86th Street. And that's why there's....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now that's a little nuts. I disagree with "anything north of the city", but I understand it. But this---all of the Bronx and geographically almost half of Manhattan Island? Upstate?
:-) Andrew
86th Street is the middle of Manhattan.
Yes. It is. Though most people think of Manhattan as ending (for all practical purposes) arround 96th St, it in fact reaches 218th St on Manhattan Island and 228th St with Marble Hill. HOWEVER, the island and borough start to narrow out quite a bit north of 125th St, with Amsterdam (10th) Ave forming the eastern flank by the 170's. So I would say that Manhattan north of 86th is probably less than half the area of the island.
:-) Andrew
Anything above 14th Street....
From the Downstate area, yes, Putnam and Orange counties and beyond are consider the upstate regions. Some might say that that is changing as Putnam, Dutchess and Orange are becoming more and more suburban counties of NYC.
As a New Yorker who lived for years in Buffalo, I can say that as far as residents of Western New York are concerned, Downstate likely is everything south of the Catskill Mountains.
Nestled here between the Catskills and the Adirondacks (Mohawk valley) I'd say that's the most widely accepted reality outside the five boroughs (and pretenders who bought a house in Scarsdale) ...
Easy. Upstate begins with Kings, Richmond, Bronx, and Queens are upstate, and so is everything beyond them.
If there's any green space, it's upstate.
So what...Upstate is everything but Manhattan now? That includes Long Isalnd? And Staten Island is as far south as you can go in NYS.
:-) Andrew
Central Park is green. Does that make the expresses to the Bronx commuter rail? Heh.
To out-of-staters: New York, or New York City. Sometimes I explicitly use the former to test their awareness of the rest of the state.
To in-staters: New York City, or (where the context is clear) the City.
To NYCers: Manhattan, or the Upper West Side, depending on how specific an answer I think they're seeking. If probed further I'll give street coordinates. (Through this procedure I once discovered that I had been introducing myself to the mother of a high school classmate -- long after we had graduated and about 230 miles away. "Oh, you live in the large building at [insert street corner]? Do you know [so and so]?" "Yes, he's my son.")
If not in New York, I say "Brooklyn". If in New York, I say "BAy Ridge". Now, I used to live in Dyker Heights, but nobody knows where that is, so I'd say "Bay Ridge", even tho. it's on the other side of the approach to the Verrazano.
This Morning. At 7:25 AM
As my Bus was getting off the I-95 at Exit 15 in New Rochelle. I saw Acela train and it did not any passengers in there and it was going SLOW!! About 25 MPH that train did when I saw it. The Moterman car # is #2015. The train looks nice!!
Two Acela trainsets bypassed eachother at 6:45pm Friday
near City Island/Orchard Beach Bridge.. Made
for quite an interesting visual from the 14th floor
When the Metroliners first ran scheduled service, a friend of mine took his super 8 movie camera to a spot where he calculated 2 of them should meet if they were on time. He got a great movie of 2 Metroliners passing in opposite directions.
The power car you saw might be 2019, instead of 2015, because 2015 has not entered Amtrak property yet.
Chaohwa
SEPTA is shuttle bussing between 63rd & 69th st. terminal. This is happening at a bad time. I bet they run short of rush hour trains as many come from 69th st. The delay is due to power problems.
Chuck Greene
i seen the 108 bus as one one of the shuttle
They were shuttling between 15th St and 69th St all weekend.
--Mark
That will be in effect for some time, as they are upgrading the signal
system in that stretch. They are doing it on weekends to have less effect on the "riding public".
Chuck Greene
It will continue throughout the summer and is merely a preview of what will happen when the reconstruction of the El begins possibly next year. SEPTA had a mix of over 40 buses in this service on 3 minute and less headways. After a fiasco on the first weekend, the operation in Center City was revised to loop via 15th, Walnut and 20th (rather than around City Hall) due to confusion at 15th & Kennedy. For some reason, the shuttles were not all articulated buses, as I had heard was planned.
Complicating this to some degree is the current short-route situation on Route 10 with cars ending at 40th & Market due to trackwork on Lancaster Ave east of 38th St. Thus, all 10 riders must use the El from there. This will also get worse during the summer when the entire line is out.
A crossover is supposed to be installed west of 40th St to permit El operation to that point, reducing the shuttle bus mileage and removing it from the busiest portions of Market St (Center City and the 30th St Station area).
Thanks for the update, Bob. Sounds like a real mess for quite a while, but a permanent improvement for the future!
Chuck Greene
WMATA has proposed extensions to the Metro subway system, including a line to Georgetown and other crosstown service. Below is a link to the Washington Post's article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36227-2001May2.html
perhaps the most interesting nugget for those of us with some contempt for the regressive fare carpeted, way too cute systems is >>Just 19 percent of Metro's 103-mile system of track and stations is in downtown Washington, but that small chunk handles about 60 percent of the 600,000 daily trips made on the subway.<<
so much for long distance riders must be enticed by cushy seats and inadequate doors. One can only hope the geniuses at MTA can learn from this AND BUILD 2nd AVE AS FOUR TRACKS.
Couldn't they make like the Chicago north side El and build express tracks on the outside of the local ?
If you look at a map of Metro, the 19% of route mileage is almost all tunnel trackage downtown(caveat, this may be slightly off, but even the above ground section of the Red line north of Union Station is constrained by the parralel CSX (B&O) mainline.) If you read the entire WashPost article, the basic flaw becomes clear--lack of track capacity, exacerbated by poor car design. While you may appreciate soft seats, the fact is that for short hops downtown the real chokepoint is getting on/off the trains. If they had enough cars and were able to fully deploy 8 car trains in rush, things might improve for a while.
WAMTA had a booth at the Tysons Corner Mall with its intended extension. The priority is a extension or branch out to Dullas Airport hopefully finished by 2010
Washington DC is going to start experiencing what New York has - as the network gets larger, WMATA has to reinvest in its core even as it expands. This is due to its success.
A friend of mine who works in the federal govt. tells me the construction of the Blue Line Extension to Largo Town Center is well under way. Do we know how close to completion it is?
The article states that $2.2 billion will be expected to pay for 23 miles of track to Dulles. That is about $95 million per mile. It seems a bit optimistic, unless all the track is on surface ROW requiring little in the way of tunnelling or elevated structure, and I'm assuming this is largely going to be an express line with no stations besides the airport terminal(since stations are the most expensive aspect of mass transit construction).
WMATA holds a big advantage: This is our nation's capitol, and other posters have noted that WMATA, as a result, is generously supplied with capital funds compared with other transit agencies.
Inside the city, I believe a lot of people will be receptive to new service (even if it takes five years to blast a new tunnel), but it will be interesting to see how they deal with the Georgetown NIMBYs.
Well, Bravo for them. Whenever I visit DC, I always ride Metro.
Inside the city, I believe a lot of people will be receptive to new service (even if it takes five years to blast a new tunnel), but it will be interesting to see how they deal with the Georgetown NIMBYs.
The Georgetown NIMBYs have become YIMBYs. Now that they see that the Metro is an national treasure, they want it BAD!
What? A NIMBY converting to a YIMBY?
Is this a miracle (or perhaps the result of a successful exorcism)? Incredible! Stupendous! I say we call for a national holiday honoring recovered ex-NIMBYs.
Funny you should mention exorcism..."The Exorcist" book and movie take place mostly in Georgetown...the McNeil household overlooks the Francis Scott Key bridge, and yes that long flight of steps is still there.
Hey, I'm psychic :0)
Back to the extension, there was a article in one of the DC/Virginia Papers, tating that a Congressmen in the area, wants to run a bus way instead of the subway, sort of like the one they have in Sao Pablo Brazil,and build the subway extension later. There was too much opposition. The plan is to branch off the ORANGE LINE, either at Falls Church or West Falls Church, build 4 stations including one at Tysons Corners, then 3 more in Reston, Herndon and at the airport. eventually maybe even all the way out to Leesburg. They predict about 40K a day will use the new line,. but only 10 will go to the airport. They expect it to open between 2010-2012.
I believe the Dulles extension is going to paralell the tollway to the airport, which has available land for the rail ROW. I would imagine there will be at least one or two stations, like at the Route 28 crossing of the tollway near Sterling, since like most other areas of suburban D.C., the section going towards the airport also has boomed in population over the last 20 years.
Sounds reasonable. I don't think they'll deliver it for $2.2 billion, though. My guess is, esp. with multiple stations, the cost will go to over $3 billion.
If I were living there, I'd still want it - and there's a good chance they'll get it.
Our friends live near Reston, Va. and would love to see a new line built near them. He presently drives to Vienna on the Orange Line and it's crowded at rush hour.
When are cityfolk going to wise up and realize that heavy rail transit
will save them from mass gridlock? Long live mass transit!
Chuck Greene
All hail mass transit! (and now we play our national anthem).
Just try and get a parking space at the Vienna Metro station parking area after 7:45 a.m. It's like trying to drive across 34th Street at 60 mph on a Friday afternoon rush hour. A non-stop service from Falls Church to Dulles would be loved by airport passengers, but there are just too many people living in between the two places to justify it.
Well, I take it Metro has no plans to build four tracks out that far (to provide both local and express service to Dulles). Of course that would also mean more rolling stock, and then those trains coming back to DC would have to merge from two inbound tracks back to one. Not to mention a higher price tag.
With a split at Tyson's corner, that means Metro will have to seriously consider the bypass around the current Blue/Orange route through D.C., and possibly even around the Rosslyn station in Arlington, or they will run into the same problem the MTA has with the A train split between Lefferts and Far Rockaway -- one line (Orange and the A) with two terminals, then merging with a third line (the Blue/Orange at Rosslyn and the A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn) which limits TPH to each specific terminal.
The other option would be, of course, to cut the number of Orange and Blue lines trains on their current routes to give the Dulles route the needed tunnel space, but with the growth all around Northern Virginia, that's just asking for trouble down the line.
I agree with your logic. Let's see what they do.
2010-12 is the target date for opening
It will not be non stop. If they want non stop service there is the airport bus. As I stated there will be 4 stops between The Orange Line at either Falls Church or West Falls Church. They will be at Tysons Corners probably by the Mall, Then over to the Tollway Reston Pky in Reston, FairfaxCounty Pkwy in Herndon, and Rt 128 ath the edge of the airport and then the airport. Maps were in Local papers Sunday, most lilely the Post
Blue Line to Largo groundbreaking is this Tuesday. In otherwords, no construction yet.
Thank you for correcting my misimpression. But congratulations to you in DC for reaching a groundbreaking (eg the line is going to happen).
There is also talk of extending the Orange Line to Centreville with stops at Rte. 123, Fair Oaks/Fair Lakes and somewhere around Rte. 28/29. They have the ROW available and since its above ground, it wont be too difficult, however, the funding for that extension is on the backburner until the extension to Dulles is complete. BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) will start first and then be converted to rail along the Dulles Access Road.
Even though funding (and public support) is there, Metro will have to be careful to make sure that specific expansions are matched to funding so these projects actually get done.
And as Metro gets larger, WMATA's management will need to use their savvy, their lobbying skills etc. to make sure the maintenance and State of Good Repair capital budgets keep up. It will take a long time before Washington DC approaches NY in terms of size of subway and commuter rail, but they're already seeing the effects of expansion - larger system? More maintenance, more reinvestment needed.
What the State of Virginia has to do, is plan for VRE Extensions. 2 lines to manassas and Fredericksburg does not do it. Traffice is the pits.
From what I understand, VRE doesn't operate around the clock - it's only a rush hour service. Is that true?
Hello,
I wonder if anyone could give me a hand finding, models of NYC model subway kits and trains. I am form London England , and I'm having problems tracking down info on this subject.
Please can anyone help???
Thank you
Will
What scale are you lookig for? I'm sure many of us can help you.
Thank you for your response Train Dude.
I'm not sure really, thats why I was enquiring.
Do U.S. models come in similar scales as the U.K?
(What are the usual scales?)
I kinda want a large scale model, maybe 1:20 scale.
Any suggestions would be greatly apreciated.
Thanks once more,
Will
1:20 is large by US standards. I'd assune it's G scale or close to it. If you are willing to go to 1:48 scale, MTH makes some great operating subway cars in both New York City and Chicago Subway System models. I own both sets of MTH R-42 sets and love the way they perform. In a few weeks MTH will deliver their 3rd set (the R-21 redbirds) which will be much closer to actual scale size. Currently, Ebay has one such set for sale at:
( http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1139863032 )
You can expect to pay $300 or more for the earlier sets and I suspect the new ones will also sell above list price except for us who have pre-ordered.
Good luck with your search
You might want to check further on this website. Go to "Transfer Station", then "Models, Merchandise, and Software", then "Subway Models".
Most of the stuff out there is in HO or N scale, is unfinished and unpowered, is sold in very limited quantities, and is quite expensive.
The HO and N offerings from Image Replicas and Collectors Corner can be optionally purchased painted and detailed at a higher cost. Relatively speaking, most of their products are moderately priced.
MTS Imports sells superbly detailed (mostly brass) models in HO scale (and occasionaly O-scale) but their costs are VERY high.
Q-Car produced a model of an R-17 car that is intricately detailed, but you must assemble it and paint it. IHP relased an R-33 on a limited run in O-scale that also required good modelling skills.
Not listed on this site are the MTH subway cars. These are reasonably-priced two and four car sets of O-gauge trains (they can run on regular 3-rail, Lionel layouts). So far, they've sold two sets of R-42 models (a D train with the blue stripe, and an all-silver E train), and in two weeks, they're releasing an R-21 "Redbird" set. In the Fall, they will be releasing a more expensive, scale version of a pre-GOH R-32 car. Supposedly they plan more subway offerings in the future
Two weeks, ago, I visted the Rockaway line just before all the leaves started to fill in (as they have now). I got a bunch of photos which are on my site at http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/lirr/rockaway/rockaway.html.
Please give me any comments or suggestions.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
If it wasn't for that third rail, I've could have sworn that was the abandoned R-8 Newtown route. Anyhoo, that would make a great subway line.
Tell me more about that.
Are you referring to the R8 Fox Chase Line (that is, track beyond Fox Chase)? Do you know why it was abandoned (was there no ridership?)?
That's what I'm referring to, and the reason of abandonment was the line wasn't electrified. If reopened, SEPTA would not only have to electrify it, they would have to double-track and either build an overpass or underpass where it meets the R-3. That would take some cash.
So, if I understand you correctly, the R3 and R8 currently have a rail intersection governed by signals or by a control tower, yes?
And I deduce from your answer that low ridership would not be a reason to abandon the line. Am I correct?
It would have a control tower (I think it did), but the intersection was removed. And with SEPTA, low ridership is hardly ever the reason to abandon the line (there were suggestions to convert the R-6 Ivy Ridge to an extension of The Route 10 trolley line) but they have abondoned the line north of Cynwyd (try saying that), so to offset that, SEPTA built a station at Ivy Ridge on The R-6 NORRISTOWN portion. And please, don't ask me questions why a SEPTA paired up two routes that meet each other after the tunnel opened, because I don't know why myself, and where's the logic to that either.
The Manayunk Bridge is currently being rehabilitated (repair crews, cranes and cement trucks are visible on the bridge). SEPTA states that the bridge is not structurally safe for Silverliner consists and would like to introduce a new service (the Schuylkill Valley Metro) on that route.
I am leading an effort to bring the R6 station in Manayunk up to ADA standards. With the phenomenal growth in the area, that kind of station upgrade is sorely needed.
Restoring service on the Cynwyd-Ivy Ridge portion would be useful. The Bala-Cynwyd shopping area (supermarkets, dept. stores, drug stores, hardware, you name it) is just a few minutes ride from Ivy Ridge and Manayunk - but now you need a car to get there (or are willing to hoof it a ways).
SEPTA would not only have to electrify it, they would have to double-track and either build an overpass or underpass where it meets the R-3.
They wouldn't be necessary. Service on the R8 would be infrequent enough so that an interlocked diamond crossing wouldn't really tiw up either line.
Fascinating photos. Next month marks the 39th anniversaryu of the year it was abandoned (June 1962).
To think it easily could have been just about be back in service now were it not for that damned Airtrain.
"To think it easily could have been just about be back in service now were it not for that damned Airtrain."
In a Subtalk world, maybe. Not in real life. And that had nothing to do with AirTrain.
The NIMBY crowd living in the area where that line is were opposed to it being re-opened, so that is why it is a weed covered hangout for drug using cretins and not being used for a connection to the airport, which would save money for other projects.
"The NIMBY crowd living in the area where that line is were opposed to it being re-opened, so that is why it is a weed covered
hangout for drug using cretins and not being used for a connection to the airport, which would save money for other projects."
Doc,
I agree with you that the ROW currently contributes nothing but problems to New Yorkers. What you describe about it is disgraceful, certainly. And NIMBYism is alive and well in the area (but not necessarily representing the majority viewpoint), unfortunately, and I have little sympathy for most of them.
But you're missing a lot of pieces to this puzzle.
1) In the first place, AirTrain and LIRR are funded from separate pots of money, collected from much different sources (MTA uses bond/tax money; PA uses PFT collected from airline passengers and already deposited in the bank). While the PA has some discretion to invest in MTA projects (and may contribute a little something to East Side Access), in general, one agency not pursuing something does not save money for the other. The savings you describe do not exist. Now, I should point out that MTA could, theoretically, rebuild and open the Rockaway Line to service anyway. MTA doesn't need the PA's permission to do that. It was not a pure "either or" situation. The PA would have had to cooperate to bring an airport circulator to meet the trains, however.
2) Even if you banished all the usual idiot NIMBYs to Outer Nimberia where they belong (Nimberia will have subways and LIRR when hell freezes over), MTA would still have the problem that the Rockaway Line passes within 50 feet of some people's homes, requiring extensive reconstruction, sound-proofing and other work to make rail service tenable. I'm not against it, but the work involved is not trivial, much harder than a lot of people are willing to believe. Further, the ROW is in so much disrepair that MTA would probably have to rip much of the infrastructure out and start fresh - that adds to the cost. Again, I'm not against it per se - but I'm illustrating for you what confronts the agency, esp. given competing priorities in the not unlimited Capital Plan, and ought not to be dismissed as a mere detail by the wave of one's hand. Would you tell patients a liver transplant is "just an operation" and not sweat the details?
3) There have been many threads on this issue before. Prominent in them are references to the situation wherein 2 tunnels serve three railroads crossing the East River for either revenue service, transit to service yards, or both. Adding direct airport service on the LIRR to Manhattan has been determined by MTA staff to be infeasible because of this, and I, for one, fully agree. This situation will change when the LIRR's 63rd St tunnel to Grand Central opens for business (the East Side Access project) in the 2010-12 time frame. Now, if MTA had spent the money instead building the LIRR Rockaway Line, and not completed the 63rd St commuter rail tunnel, then we would really be screwed, because all LIRR schedules would be affected by yet one more train squeezing into those two tunnels. Instead, MTA is doing the right thing. They are spending money opening a third tunnel under the East River, so trains don't have to spend as much time stopped dead in front of the East River and wait their turns to enter the tunnels - which is what happens too frequently now (hey, I've been on those trains). When that new tunnel opens, and money is available to pour into the LIRR Rockaway Line, then we can revisit that issue. The line could be a great resource.
To be fair, there were suggestions that the LIRR Rockaway/Airport Line operate to Woodside or Jamaica only, not to Manhattan, and the presence of six or more tracks would eliminate the "traffic jam" concerns at the tunnels. But you could still end up killing East Side Access or the Second Avenue subway, or the "7" extension to Javits etc.) in the Capital Plan, and a lot of people with an interest in those projects are not going to let anybody do that.
I've seen advocacy for this line motivated by hatred of the PA, by a closed-minded attitude about the employment of any new transit technologies. Yes, have my own biases, like anyone else, but I think I've shown why the MTA's refusal to consider the Rockaway Line at this time is not unreasonable.
There is yet another alternative - and I do not favor it, but I will mention it for completeness. MTA could remove all the Rockaway LIRR infrastructure, do a complete environmental cleanup of the area, and turn over the land for parks, green space, bike trails and for environmentally-sustainable recreational/retailing activities.
Of course the NIMBYs would try to kill that too. They clearly prefer drug addict-infested junkyards.
Your answer is well appreciated, and I thank you for your insights. I just wish that the powers that be would get together and come up with a cost effective, efficient, and meaningful plan to increase service, minimize delays, and improve the quality of life for you and me, the riding public. I wish that the 63rd st. LIRR tunnel would get into operation sooner, but there are some things that you wish for but cannot have. As for that unused ROW, it has to be cleaned up and used for something, lest some terrible event occur and then the NIMBY crowd starts to yell that something should have been done in the first place. Again, thanks for your insights.
You're welcome.
There is yet another alternative - and I do not favor it, but I will mention it for completeness. MTA could remove all the Rockaway LIRR infrastructure, do a complete environmental cleanup of the area, and turn over the land for parks, green space, bike trails and for environmentally-sustainable recreational/retailing activities.
Of course the NIMBYs would try to kill that too. They clearly prefer drug addict-infested junkyards.
IF the line's not going to be revived for rail service, which unfortunately seems to be the case, the city should either follow your suggestion or, at the very minimum, allow neighboring landowners to claim it. But the current do-nothing policy is utterly pointless.
"IF the line's not going to be revived for rail service, which unfortunately seems to be the case, the city should either follow your
suggestion or, at the very minimum, allow neighboring landowners to claim it. But the current do-nothing policy is utterly
pointless."
Agreed - actually worse than pointless. It's a drag on property values and encourages vagrancy and crime.
The completion of the LIRR's 63rd St line to GCT in 2012 may prompt LIRR to look at other things - such as double-tracking Ronkonkoma or electrifying Oyster Bay or otherwise increasing MUU services (or even accommodating 2nd or 3rd Generation hybrid Port Authority AirTrain vehicles) - in other words, using the new third tunnel to provide more train service on existing branches.
Where's Larry Littlefield? Come on Larry, weigh in here, please. I want to hear your opinion.
Dan,
Sorry to correct you, but that is the LIRR Rockaway Line. Not the FAR Rockaway Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was referred to as the "Rockaway Beach Branch".
Terrific NY railroads site!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Very nice photos, by the way. Good work.
I will be in London UK over the Memorial Day weekend. I plan to do some train watching and tube riding. Which tube lines are good ones to ride that are open for a great distance. I know the Picidilly line from Heathrow is out doors for a while along with the one next to it, is there any plac where I can film both tubes and Brit Rail the same time?
The Piccadilly Line between Acton Town and Hammersmith and the Metropolitan Line between Baker Street and Wembley Park have the only "express" runs in the system. And they are 99% outside. They give a nice ride.
The District Line between Gunnersbury and Richmond and the Bakerloo Line between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone share tracks and platforms with SilverLink trains.
what is the silverlink trains, part of Brit Rail???
Yes it is. British Rail was privatized 5 years ago and is now a whole bunch of fragmented companies with SilverLink being one of them.
Well where do I start.
Try Stratford on the Central Line, where the tube line pops up to the surface then burrows again. Queens Park on the Bakerloo is right next to the West Coast Main Line. Most of the Distrct Line from Bow Raod eastwards is alongside the London Tilbury and Southend Line. Royal Oak on the Hammersmtih and City gives a good view of the Great Western and Heathrow Express. Any of the Jubilee and Metropolitan Stations north of Finchley Road run alongside the old Great Central services from Marylebone. Wimbledon Station on the District is along side the South Western services from Waterloo as is Richmond.
Your travelcard will givew access to all railways in Greater London.
Simon
Swindon UK
The last couple of Sundays I've been in the Parsons Archer station on Sundays, I've seen R trains waiting where I'd normally see the E. Are R's being extended from Continental for some reason, and where are the E's?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe the G.O. has R trains replacing E's and running local in all of Queens Blvd. The R runs it's normal route in Manhattan.
Sometimes they have the (E) running local on QB, then going down Broadway through Chambers, sometimes they have the (R) running to Jamaica Center. What's the difference? I guess that the (R) continues to Brooklyn.
And sometimes, the (E) does find its way to Eighth Ave after all.
:-) Andrew
Well, there are no E trains this weekend, nor will there be any for the next few weekends. The R makes all stops between Jamaica Center and 95 St. Brooklyn (running time 1 hour 34 minutes).
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
I feel like I live in the subway station at 53/Lex. It's still 84 in my apartment and that's with the air conditioner on (top floor+no insulation=hell). No use opening the windows, temps have struggled to get below 80 so far tonight.
But not too far away in Mineola, temps are in the upper 60s. In fact most of LI is around 70 or just below it, except for my corner of the woods, that area north of 25A. Even Queens and Brooklyn are cooler than here.
I gotta get out of this place, I have a headache and feel sick now.
I remember once riding an old diesel on a mild June night from Mineola to Sea Cliff, with no A/C. It was hot in there but with doors open there was a breeze. Once we got past Roslyn the breeze from the outside wasn't cool anymore. In fact even in nearby east Hills temps feel a good 5 degrees cooler. So why is this such a hot town?
Well gotta go now to stand in front of the A/C before I faint.
I mean I know lots of people live in Manhattan and it's hot there, but at least you got all that great transit. Here in SC it's a no-win situation. Perhaps I need to buy an R32 car and live in there, those cars with ice cold A/C would be a very welcome thought right about now.
Times like these, I'd suggest a MYSTICAL chic..
:)
"It's too hot, too hot baby, gotta run for shelter, gotta run for shade"
-Kool and the Gang "Too Hot"
Speaking of shelters, it would be nice if the ones on the 7 line covered the whole platform length. I remember one hot day waiting for the 7 at 74th street and had to stand in the sun since there was no standing room in the sheltered area.
Really a question for Todd Glickman, but NYC's buildings and industry conspire to make NYC a greenhouse during heat waves. The temperatures rise during the day, but can't drop too much when the sun sets, so it stays warm all night. Not getting below 70 all night is pretty hot for May.
The morning TV weatherpeople must be instructed to chirp with glee when the temperature is forecasted for 90 (Linda Church is the worst in thsi regard) but even they were touting the cold front by week's end.
Obigatory nycsubway.org transit reference:
The R32's are rolling iceboxes during heatwaves, and aren't I glad. Why isn't the AC in the 44's and 46's as good? Would it take a lot of money to make them colder?
www.forgotten-ny.com
This AM, there must have been some prolem on the Babylon Branch. Hence, my favorite AM train was re-routed over the central branch. This finally gave me the opportunity to ride a cab over that line. When we reached the mainline, it was obvious that they didn't know what to do with another (strange) train, making the ride to Jamaica slow and tedious. Despite this, I can't help wondering about all of those trains leaving Babylon this morning with no option. Now - given the flexibility it would add to the babylon Branch, wouldn't it make sense to electrify the central branch?
For the relative rarity that the Babylon line is so screwed up that it can't handle the 1 or 2 diesel trains each way, it is hardly worth electrifying. Better investment would be to electrify to Port Jeff, and consolidate a few Huntington MU and Port Jeff trains if 12 cars could handle it.
Electrifying the Central Branch is in the LIRR's 20-year plan thrugh 2016.
True, but I never thought much of their capital priorities.
Why electrify a little-used, staionless line as opposed to Yaphank or Port Jeff is beyond me.
Electrification to Yaphank and Speonk is also included, but not Port Jeff.
The Central Branch is little-used partly because it isn't electrified. It provides an "escape hatch" if there are problems on lines east. When the Main Line is third tracked, the Central Branch will provide additional capacity for service east on the South Shore.
As it did yesterday, the central branch would also provide an escape route west for Babylon train that are currently blocked or slowed by troubles west of Babylon. In reality, I think that despite the 65 MPH MAS on the central branch, the trip from Babylon to Jamaica is actually shorter & faster that way.
In my previous post, I did not mean to imply that Babylon trains used the Central branch on Friday. What I was referring to were diesel trains from the east that either stopped at or passed through Babylon.
BTW: Does anyone know the actual designation of the couplers used on the Bilevels and DM/DE30 locos?
Last year, I think it was, they used Dual Modes to operate a weekend diversion from Ronkonkoma to Penn, switching back on the Central Branch. I'm sure for the Ronk line passengers, it beat bus connections all holler.
I thought I would get a ride from Babylon to Ronkonkoma, but the trains just cleared the switches east of Belmont Jct.--never made it to Babylon station.
It also provides a Main Line escape hatch. A tractor-trailer grade crossing incident at Mineola one afternoon had a train from Port Jeff reverse at Hicksville and again at Babylon (behind a Babylon-NYP local) to get to Jamaica (2 hours late). We also picked up the passengers from a Huntington to NYP local at Hicksville that was following us. It was on one of the first C-3 bilevel runs, back when that particular run only got the new train Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.
I guess there's no plan to electrify Oyster Bay line either. It seems the NORTH SHORE always seem to lag behind. You can thank all the
rich-ass NIMBY's!
>>I guess there's no plan to electrify Oyster Bay line either. It seems the NORTH SHORE always seem to lag behind. You can thank all the rich-ass NIMBY's!<<
Well, let 'em choke on the exhaust from the diesel locomotives. Once they're gone, then electrify the line.
John, I know you honestly believe that the deisel trains on the Oyster Bay Branch and the "nimby's" keeping them there are the cause of all of your and Sea Cliff's problems but I don't think electrifying the Oyster Bay Branch would change one thing other than regressing from the ultra modern tri-levels to the old M1-3's. The main problem with the OB Branch is geography rather than how the trains are powered. Its a North/South line from Mineola to OB after going East/West between Jamaica & Mineola which has to make it a long ride even though its not really much further west than Mineola. The West Hempstead, Far Rock, and Long Beach Lines are pretty much the same way. The OB branch also loses alot of riders to the Port Washington Branch which is not too far from some of the OB Branch's stations. Hypothetically if the O.B. was electric and the P.W. branch diesel I think the ridership would be pretty much the same as the P.W. Branch is much more direct.
There is also no guarantee that electrification would make it a one seat ride to Penn, it could very well become a Bklyn Line, such as the Hempstead, Long Beach, and Far Rock Line. And it could even stay a Mineola Shuttle, such as the West Hemp branch (which is electric) is pretty much a Valley Stream Shuttle.
I have to admit, a one seat ride is a big draw for people as I recently rode on the afternoon Dual Mode to O.B. from Penn which bypasses Mineola to East Williston. The train was jam packed with standees which is very unusual for the Oyster Bay branch which usually runs half empty trains. I don't know why, I would much rather change at Jamaica and get a seat than stand all the way to save a transfer.
Long Beach is a Penn Station line AFAIK. I never see it off peak hours at Atlantic on the electronic board and there are always Hempstead and Far Rockaway trains there. The one time I rode the Long Beach it was at noon or so, and I had to change at Jamaica from Flatbush.
As for rolling stock, that doesn't matter. Any electrification would need new rolling stock anyway as there aren't enough MUs. If there would be no new rolling stock with an electrification then the DE30s and DM30s would merely be converted to full electric operation. Electrification isn't merely to provide a one-seat ride. It's a better way to power trains and it would allow the LIRR to save money by not having to maintain two types of trains. All passenger RRs should be electric except for some Amtrak routes.
"Electrification isn't merely to provide a one-seat ride. It's a better way to power trains and it would allow the LIRR to save money by not having to maintain two types of trains."
There is an interesting problem with this. The LIRR is a *railroad* and so each of those MU cars is a "Locomotive" and must be inspected like a locomotive, a very expensive prospect. NJT likes diesels, Chicago is full of the things, and other new commuter lines are diesel powered for this and other reasons.
*I* use diesel push-pull sets on my model railroad for the same reasons: they are much easier to obtain and maintain than some of the MU powered sets that I have.
http://members.tripod.com/BrElias/
Elais
This is not a problem if one uses electric push-pull sets. NJT like electric push-pull, not diesel.
Except they are inappropriate on most of NJT for the service. Limited to 9 cars, poor acceleration, and very jerky, slow operation on the M&E, especially with dampness and leaves. 9 car trains have stalled.
The ALP's are far poorer performers than the AEM-7's that Amtrak and SEPTA have. I have ridden behind all of them on the NEC.
Long Beach had historically been an off-peak "Flatbush line" up until about 5-6 years ago. In about 1995, LIRR revised their weekend schedules and Long Beach became a "Penn Station line" on weekends but Flatbush on weekday off-peak. About 3-4 years ago, LIRR shifted Long Beach to a Penn Station line during the weekday off peak as well.
CG
That's right - when memory schedules were implemented. At times they have not yet been implemented, it is still a Brokklyn line. That is 8pm-11pm weeknights and 1am-6am weekends.
My main complain about OB is it is so slow. The trains crawl on there. Is the track in bad shape or something, the PJ line didn't have so many speed restrictions.
I don't mind changing trains (actually the more the merrier) but the OB line service is slow and infrequent. If electrification is not feasible than at least service should be improved.
Too many people crowd Great Neck and Port Washington for trains but OB trains are under-used. Perhaps if more people took the OB line they'd add more trains.
Or vice versa.
Was Oyster Bay one of the last lines to get new trains? I remember people complaining about getting the worst, and worst-maintained, of the old diesel units on that line.
Yup, OB was the last to get rid of the old diesels (and steam).
I would have thought the Greenport scoot was the last one. Cars 2907 ans 2909 were lingering around Morris Park all last summer as though they were there to protect it if they had to. Was there any fanfare for the last old diesel on the O.B. ?
I would have thought the Greenport scoot was the last one.
It actually was the first line to get the new equipment.
Electrification to Yaphank and Speonk is also included, but not Port Jeff.
The Central Branch is little-used partly because it isn't electrified. It provides an "escape hatch" if there are problems on lines east. When the Main Line is third tracked, the Central Branch will provide additional capacity for service east on the South Shore.
In my opinion, further electrification is pointless. The LIRR has a new fleet of diesel locomotives (plus some dual-modes) and diesel coaches - and the latter are 100% nicer and more comfortable than the MU's. Changing at Jamaica is quick and easy. There is no reason whatsoever why the LIRR should cater to lazy big shots who insist on a (bow your head in reverence) one-seat ride.
Electrification should be done because it's BETTER. The only problem is replacing the locomotives.
Why is it difficult to replace the locomotives?
Because they're new. It would be a waste.
Because they're new. It would be a waste.
100% of the equipment running today is capable of running if electrification is expanded. Absolutely nothing needs to be abandoned or scrapped.
Half of the locomotives to which you refer (the DM-30s) are dual-modes and are perfectly capable of drawing power from the third rail, or running as they do now, in electric mode where required and diesel once clear of the tunnels.
The other half (the DE-30s) operate completely independently of the third rail anyway. Sure, you can't run them as far west as you might like, but there are plenty of trains that don't go all the way to Penn or Flatbush as it is now. Assign the DE-30s to those runs.
New fleet or not, if further electrification makes sense (and I'm not implying that it does or doesn't,) then it should be pursued.
Mark
The GP38-2 locomotives which were the workhorses of the LIRR could not get into the tunnels due to their heights, but now they are working for the New York and Atlantic Railway, which is an all freight operation. The new locomotives are capable of entering Penn Station, and I think they can get into Flatbush Ave, but I am not sure about that one. Any diesel electric locomotive can be retrofitted to operate with third rail power, and you can see for yourself if you go to Grand Central Terminal and take a close look at some of the General Electric Genesis class locomotives operating on the Metro-North Commuter Railroad. They have third rail pickup shoes, just like the venerable old FL-9's of the New Haven railroad.
I doubt the DE/DM engines fill fit into Flatbush Terminal (but may well thru the "Woodhaven" tunnel) because the old Pennsy-era MP70 double-deckers could not. They were 14'2" high, where as the MP72's could at 13'7".
What is the height of the GE Genesis Class Amtrak locomotive? That can get into Penn Station, as well as GCT, and they are used for the trips to Albany and points north and west on the old NY Central Water Level Route.
Some of those old electrics on the NY Central were really massive, as were their counterparts on the old New Haven RR. Size wise, how did the NY Central electrics match up against the Pennsy GG-1 and the New Haven Electrics?
You're the one who hates the Ronkonkoma line because of all those people from Smithtown, Port Jeff, and Patchogue. Do you favor de-electrifying Ronkonkoma in that case if changing at Jamaica is no big deal ?
You're the one who hates the Ronkonkoma line because of all those people from Smithtown, Port Jeff, and Patchogue. Do you favor de-electrifying Ronkonkoma in that case if changing at Jamaica is no big deal ?
You'd better believe I detest Ronkonkoma (but see my posting under Blessed Relief). Even so, de-electrifying the line would not be a good idea, as it would essentially be writing off the whole investment after 15 or so years.
There's another opinion on dual modes. You know that Jersey Transit is expanding electrification. I think they're going as far as Great Notch on the Boonton Line in the next stage.
NJT has been asked why they don't simply go to dual modes. They think they're too heavy, too complex, too expensive for the benefit gained.
The biggest argument in favor of dual modes is that they're a smaller upfront capital investment. Sometimes this is a good decision, sometimes not. It was one of the big arguments in favor of converting trolleys to bus 50 years ago.
If you mean a dual-mode that can run off catenary (as opposed to 3rd rail), please forget it. It has yet to be invented, and would likely cost about $10 million a piece.
Is there some technical problem I'm missing that would
make it significantly more difficult or expensive to build
a dual-mode with pantographs than one with third-rail
shoes?
Yes, a locomotive type with a limited market base would
necessarily have to amortize the development costs across
smaller number of units. On the other hand, this might
not have to be a custom design for NJT only. I can
imagine Amtrak having some interest in the concept for
Virgnia trains, and perhaps Southern and Pittsburgh-route
long-hauls.
Alan Follett
A high voltage AC-catenary locomotive is very complicated and stuffed with equipment as it is. Such an engine that is also diesel would have to be a 2-unit creature for the prime mover. Imagine an AEM-7 and an F59 together. Thrid rail is very simple. It provides power to the traction motors instead of from the prime mover.
Amtrak has no interest. better to change engines somewhere and refurbish the electrifcation to Harrisburgh. NS won't let them get beyond 2 trains a day to Pittsburgh.
The FL9s?
Seattle Metro operates dual-mode buses which use overhead wire (trolley, not pantograph, but still...) in electric mode. If it can be done with buses, which tend to be smaller than the typical locomotive, why NOT dual-mode catenary trains?
Trolleys draw considerably less current than modern locomotives do. Hence, 600 V overhead wire is feasible. However, for a modern loco. you need 25,000 VAC to keep currents and wire size reasonable for catenary. However, the equipment needed to make the 25KVAC usable for the locomotive takes up much space hence making the locomotive too large.
In Karlsruhe they operate dual mode caternary LRVs capable to use low voltage trolley tracks and railroad (not sure what the rr voltage is). I've read about Adtranz's proposal for 600VDC 3kVDC dual mode LRV operation.
Arti
Putting Speonk ahead of Port Jeff is really a slap in the face to the North Shore. It certainly has nothing to do with current ridership.
They were actually committed to doing the Port Jeff line first. They even had the money to go as far as Northport. But as perceptions shifted, community support for electrification has waned. I think part is fear of encouraging development. Another part is that places along the line might see road connectors and large parking garages. Think Huntington Station or Ronkonkoma.
Same sentiment that has formed the 25A committees.
Actaully they had the budget to get to Smithtown, but it was the LIRR who turned to dual-mode like a defense contractor wanting to invent a new toy. They could have done it to Port Jeff by 1992 if they put their minds to it, and told the NIMBYs to go to hell. Ronkonkoma and Huntington would not have been the parking deck villages that they are today if they did so, and the rest of the Port Jeff line would not have changed much in character, except for Port Jeff itself, which is a catch basin for the communities out to Wading River.
No matter how many times someone tries explaining this, it never makes sense to me:
Why would NIMBYs (or anyone else, for that matter) oppose electrification?
Electrics are quieter and cleaner along the ROW than diesels. Do the people in opposition somehow fear that electrification will bring increased service, or make it easier for undesirables to gain access to the area, or suburbanize their rural communities (or urbanize their suburban communities?) I think that these are all poor and illogical excuses.
Mark
Yes to all of the above, and the 3rd rail will be an "attractive nuisance" to their little darlings. While diesel trains are noisy, but electric trains are too quiet. Trains are either too noisy or too quiet, so they can't win.
In 1984 MN's Harlem line was electrified from North White Plains to Brewster North. Much of this territory is quite wealthy and heavily rural as well, especially north of Katonah. I don't recall reading about much community resistance to this electrification.
If anything, the electrification has been a huge success in attracting riders- so much so that commuters who would normally use the diesel Danbury branch are driving west to Brewster for the electric service. This is despite the fact that rush hour Danbury diesels go directly to and from Grand Central, requiring no transfer at South Norwalk.
That just goes to show there is room for electrification deeper into the suburbs.
Why would anyone be against electrification? Who needs the noise and fumes from the diesels.
"Why would anyone be against electrification?"
Unless it makes us glow in the dark (oh, sorry, I thought you said electrocution...):0)
"Unless it makes us glow in the dark (oh, sorry, I thought you said...'
This month's Model Railroader has a covered hopper lettered for nuclear waste disposal. It is cast in plastic that glows in the dark.
Elias
Hardy - har -har
I have both electrics and diesels running a stone's throw from my house (well, if you have a really good arm).
The diesels aren't any particular problem unless you live near a place where they're idling during off hours. The LIRR keeps them running all night in cold weather.
Not long after the new diesels were introduced I noticed a low annoying whining noise inside my closed home. I thought there was some kind of construction going on--it was there some hours and not others. I finally traced it to a set of the new diesels that was left idling on the Central Branch just west of Belmont Jct. Their turbines produce a very annoying sound that travels quite far, much further than the main roar you associate with diesels.
"Their turbines produce a very annoying sound that travels
quite far, much further than the main roar you associate with diesels."
Are you referring to the turbogenerator which spins the alternator to make current? Or is this a supercharger which works even at constant (idle) speed?
"Their turbines produce a very annoying sound that travels
quite far, much further than the main roar you associate with diesels."
Are you referring to the turbogenerator which spins the alternator to make current? Or is this a supercharger which works even at constant (idle) speed?
I don't know the answer to that question. I can hear the whine both close up and far away, but close up you tend not to notice it because of the roar of the engine. I guess it's because high pitched sounds travel further than low pitched ones.
Sounds like a supercharger.
NJ Transit faced some community opposition to the partial electrification of the Boonton line from Montclair to Great Notch. The environmental impact statement had to include a study of the effects of the radiation emanating from the wires.
I think you have more of a NIMBY problem when you to try to re-activate a idle ROW, vs. one that already has commuters using diesel power. The LI Central Branch is one of those. Garden City even went so far as to ban freight traffic on the line (this is why the LIRR had to provide diesels to move the Circus train in & out of Mitchel Field).
This is also why after the LIRR/NY&A got money to clean up the Bayridge line (West Nile scare about water in the discarded tires breading it/them), they took the area NIMBYs down the line in a former LIRR coach (now painted green). The trip went from Midwood to the 65th St yard & back ... no railfans (almost), no run bys. Just a few speaches, some politians, a reporter from the local paper (Brooklyn Daily Eagle) & a hand out "Bay Ridge Branch Inspection Tour" "Souvenir Brochure".
Mr t__:^)
You just answered all your questions about why some areas are hesitant about electrication of train service. A prime example is when service to Ronkonkoma was electrified, more people began to use the service and more homes were being built in and around the electrified line. So that is why most people don't it, even though it would reduce the amount of cars on the roadways if more people used mass transit.
But the answer to that isn't non-electrification. The answer to that is:
1. Passage of zoning regulation limitig development
2. The purchase of open space, or easements, by public authorities or non-profit groups to prevent development
Without these protections, development will happen anyway, with or without mass transit. Mass transit may act, in some cases, to accelerate it, however.
I suspect little of that "new" ridership to the Ronkonkoma line is new to the railroad; they are simply refugees from the PJ and South Shore. Electrifying the busier of those two will simply allow those people or their predeecessors to drive to a station they once did.
I'm very surprised the realators on the PJ line haven't gone ape-shit over this. There's a lot of old money along there and one of the 4 SUNY centers. In New Jersey, Westfield is VERY jealous that Summit has Midtown Direct on the M&E but not on the RVL.
Your scenario sounds reasonable.
I suspect little of that "new" ridership to the Ronkonkoma line is new to the railroad; they are simply refugees from the PJ and South Shore. Electrifying the busier of those two will simply allow those people or their predeecessors to drive to a station they once did.
I'm very surprised the realators on the PJ line haven't gone ape-shit over this. There's a lot of old money along there and one of the 4 SUNY centers. In New Jersey, Westfield is VERY jealous that Summit has Midtown Direct on the M&E but not on the RVL.
Electrifying the Ronkonkoma line certainly doesn't seem to have hurt real estate values along the Port Jefferson line. For the most part, the communities along the latter line are quite prosperous and the area's seen quite a bit of high-end development. In contrast, the Ronkonkoma line runs through some of the worst parts of Long Island. One of the reasons advanced in favor of electrification was that it would help the economic fortunes of Central Islip, Brentwood and Wyandanch ... needless to say, it hasn't.
Come to think of it, Ronkonkoma electrification actually has made life a lot easier for people living along the Port Jefferson line, and the Montauk line too. They can enjoy pleasantly uncrowded rides, today on comfortable diesel coaches, thanks to all the big shots who humiliate themselves at Ronkonkoma every day in their quest for (bow your head in reverence) A Single-Seat Ride.
If electrifying the Central line track is mostly to be used as an escape hatch for emergency situations on the Babylon or Main Line wouldn't it be a more efficient solution if they just kept a spare locomotive on a siding on either end (in Bethpage or Babylon) specially equipped to couple with and pull MU trains (M-1,3's) just on that stretch?
As I said, it's also to increase general capacity east when the Main Line is 3 tracked. It's not that difficult.
Electrifying the Central Bracnch is a logical and seemingly simple thing, where the actual construction would take a couple of months (remember- the Babylon brach was done in 11 months).
But before they can do anything, they need to go through several years' worth of paperwork with studies and plans and spend quite a bit of money on it too. Therefore, the MTA does not feel that it is worth it to go to all that trouble.
I haven't been through this area in many years. Is there sufficient real estate to build "reverse entries" into the Central Branch from the Babylon and Ronkonoma lines? I would think that having another relief valve would be valuable -- so that if the Main Line were blocked -- trains could go from Jamaica down the Babylon branch, turn north along the Central Branch, then east out to Ronkonkoma (and return the same way).
Actually, they could probably build a wye at the Babylon end, since there is a piece of property owned by LIPA that could be used, if the agencies could agree, and the adjacent area west of the branch is industrial. I don't think this would work at Beth, though.
When Main Line construction blocked the route west of Hicksville one weekend (probably when they were finished the Herricks Road crossing) trains were routed from Ronkonkoma to Penn with a reverse move via the Central Branch. It seemed to work OK.
Hay Dude, shouldn't you call this the "diagonal branch" ?
The Central Branch to me goes thru Garden City and now ends just before the Meadowbrook Parkway.
Mr t__:^)
It wa sbuilt by the Central Railroad of L.I., same as the route you cite. Hence, the "Central Branch."
In case you haven't heard, this weekend, and another Sunday later this month, there will be absolutely no #4 trains north of 161st Street whatsoever. Why are they doing this? For God's sake, there are three whole tracks along most of that stretch! Why can't they run trains on at least one of them?
- Lyle Goldman
Solely to inconveinience YOU.
Consider that they may be doing work on switches, which will knock out two of three tracks.
-Hank
It doesn't inconvenience me. I'm nowhere near that area on weekends. It must inconvenience many other people, though. Even if two tracks must be out, can't they use the remaining track?
Does anyone here know for sure what they are doing that requires a whole three-track line to be put out of service?
- Lyle Goldman
I have noticed that some recent GOs have been pretty aggressive.
The 4 is one -- no substitute bus service is even provided. This past weekend's B/D changes are another -- at weekend headways, the D could have easily run on the local tracks. For the past few months, midday J service has been running at 24-minute headways, and in a few weeks the midday 5 will run shuttle service with 30-minute headways to Dyre. It doesn't seem like a terribly good idea to have greater midday than overnight headways, but what do I know?
Midday shuttle service to Dyre -- When this has run in the past, it is because of work being done on that limits usage to one train going back and forth (so as not to run the risk of a head-on) between Dyre and E.180. Since running time in one direction is 12 minutes and we need time to recharge the train , as well as let me people on and off and make connections with arriving N/B 2 trains, headway becomes 30 minutes.
I would imagine that something similar is at the root of 24 minute headways on the J. As for the 4, since the B/D run parallel to it a whopping two blocks away, there really isn't much need for bus service bewteen Bedford Pk Blvd and 161 and there usually has been a bus running from Woodlawn to Mosholu Pkway to 205 St during previous implementations of this GO
It hadn't occurred to me that the 5 shuttle would be single-tracked, but that makes sense. I think the 24-minute J is single-tracked over the Williamsburg Bridge.
It's still an awfully long wait. Wouldn't substitute bus service be preferable? Or could the line be single-tracked only in part? Or, at least, couldn't the work be done at night when standard headways are already 20 minutes?
How long are the two blocks from the 4 to the D? My impression is that they're fairly long, long enough to be a hardship for some. If not, couldn't the TA save money by doing away with one of the lines except rush hours?
*BUS* service? Thou blasphemeth! :)
I finally managed to get my first ride on the Italian Trolleys since last July this past Friday. According to Jonathan Belcher's page on the NE Transit site, 4 cars (3811,3812, 3814, and 3822) are now in operation on the "B" line. Today, I rode Car 3822, which was paired up with modified type 7 car 3622. I also saw 3811 paired up with 3682 as well...whcih leads me to believe there is a third train out there, which consists of cars 3812 and 3814....has anybody seen that? -Nick
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Just a reminder that subway historian Joe Cunningham will be doing a tour of the Brighton Line, one of NY's most intereesting subway lines. Meets at the Prospect Park Station at Empire & Flatbush at 1:00 and should take about 3 hours. Tour costs $8 and may be getting on and off some trains along the way so be prepared to use your metrocard a couple of times.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In the middle of last month, there was a brief thread regarding a transit desktop. I downloaded it and tried it, but quickly abandoned it because the color scheme for the menus was to bright. I did like the idea of a transit desktop though, but I could not decide which transit picture I wanted.
The solution I found was Webshots. If you have sufficient room on your hard drive, you might want to check it out. After downloading their engine, you can have random rotating pictures of your choice for both your desktop and screen saver. I automatically rotate my desktop once a day, and the screen saver once a minute with a base of 350+ images (which takes up 4.4 MB of disk space). How often you wish to rotate your photos is up to you. I have been running this on Win98 since 4/23 without any problems.
Although the Webshots site itself is pretty sparse on transit pictures, it is possible once you have downloaded the engine to include any .jpg image you have in your picture gallery.
Here is the link to Webshots
Tom
I made those. Thanks for downloading.
Which scheme(s) did you download?
Comments are appreciated so I can make subsequent versions if need be.
>>> Which scheme(s) did you download? <<<
I downloaded the NYCT version, and I am certainly not knocking what you did, it was excellent. I just prefer more muted tones on the menus.
Tom
The NYC Theme has the gray windows. Others are on the bright side, like in the Acela theme, but I find the NYC to be one of the better schemes.
And BTW: You can modify the schemes for your needs. For example, you can make it have a larger font, lighter colors, and so on.
I could not find one rail transit shot there ........however the general train shots were nice !!!
>>> I could not find one rail transit shot there <<<
Try a picture search with the words "rail transit." There are a few which have been uploaded by users.
Tom
I have a question about the R32s, what many consider the best car in the fleet....
I was contemplating the fate of the old Rustbirds one night when I thought about the fact that some had just turned 40. Then I realized that the R32 was usually compared to the Redbirds as being a superior product and that they wrre quite close in age. I did some checking and found that the R32s are vintage 1964 equipment, making them 37 years old. A common belief around here is that they will make it to thier 50th birthday, which will be in the year 2014, 13 years away.
The question I have is this; how will these cars make it to the year 2014? The R142 order is slated to knock out 75% of the Rustbirds, the R143 order will kill the rest of those PLUS the R38, R40, and R42. Plus there's already a plan for the R160s to come through in a few years. I really don't think it'll take 13 years for them to get here.
The R143 is for fleet expansion only. Nothing will be replaced by it. Your post seemed to imply that the R143 would replace the remaining Redbirds, but the R143 is B division, so they can't run on the A div. The R160 will replace the crappiest of the B division fleet, which doesn't include the R32, I think. It will be a while before the R160 go in into service. By the time they do, I bet plans will be made to replace the R32.
The R32s are superior to the R38-42 because they are made completely from stainless steel, unlike the others with only stainless steel outsides. The frames of the R38-40s are deteriorating where no one can see it. R32s also have that super cold A/C. It makes the hour and a half long ride on the N from Coney Island much more bearable.
The R160 is only for 660 or so cars, not 1000, and are not yet funded. The MTA is also going to have to get over having fare-backed bonds, and that will slow capital projects over this decade. The R32 will be the modern-day version of the BMT Standard or LIRR/PRR MP54, whether that is the intention or not.
The R44's are also visibly deteriorating, and make cause the R32's to enroll as working AARP members. The doors jams have on the outside seem to have reinforcemnet caps, and what was the blue-stripe area is rotting thru.
I heard that R44's will bereplaced with cars that come after the R160's. Also the R46's & R68's are going to be rebuild sometime in the future with A/C moters. I can't say if this is ture or not, It's just what I heard.
Robert
Then the R32's will be attending yet another wake - of the R44's.
I don't think there will be any farewel fan trips.
Does AC motors require a GOH ?
Does AC motors require a GOH ?
No modification requires a general overhaul of the cars.Virtually every modification can be done during SMS. Of course you just don't put AC motors onto a truck and that's it. You also have to change the propulsion package & perhaps more. These types of mods are best done on a 12 year SMS.
From what I've seen in heavy freight service (The SD80-MACs are sweet locomotives) you guys are going to be VERY happy with AC traction on the trains you have - especially if it's polyphasic variable frequency systems. I'm sure you know what hell low speed can be on DC motors, especially with a high pull load ... hell, just getting out from under all those brush replacements is going to lighten the workload.
But really? The 32's? AC Propulsion? First air conditioning and now this. You guys are making Frankensteins! :)
Let's not get too far afield here. I simply addressed the issue of whether or not you need a GOH to change over to AC propulsion. I never said the R-32s would get AC propulsion. In fact, I would think it highly unlikely that they would. By the end of this year, roughly 25% of the NYCT fleet will be AC propulsion. Another 25% will have E-Cams. Then figure CBTC and AFC and MVM. For the want of a better word, it would make the organization uncomfortable to accept much more technological change in such a short time. After all, we oldtimers don't adapt to change very well. :)
Hey! Hey! I *resemble* that remark ... remember, I can't conceive of a train that can be operated without wrenches and gloves. :)
I'll bet you would have loved to work the doors on the R-10s.:-)
But but but ... they were the SAME ... bottle caps is bottle caps even if they had electric assist ... as I've said before, conductors ain't conductors unless they climb the outside of the cars like suit-covered anused monkeys. ANY wimp can open a window and push buttons. :)
You got that right Selkirk. The R 1/9 maybe 10's made it a conductors life a challenge to get between two moving cars and step up on two icy plates on a cold rainy or snowy day. Thinking back they didn't waste and sheet steel when they were made, just about big enough for a man's foot if not size 12. I think the D types had them also don't know about the IRT equip as I lived in BMT and IND neighborhoods.
Burn the Slow Orders and Wrap It!
Curt
Heh. Burn the TIMERS and wrap it ... yeah, I had a foot plate drop on me once, fortunately it didn't go under any wheels. Hell of a surprise though as I stepped out for 125th Street ... but then that's why God made GRAB IRONS. Heh.
There better be....I like the R44. Then again, I like the R16 ...
Everyone has their own taste.:-)
The R38, 40 and 42 will go before the R44, as those older 60' cars have rusting carbon steel frames. The R44 might be a mechanical nuisance, buttheir super-structure is in fine condition. With SMS in full effect, body deterioration will be the main factor in the amount of time a car remains in service, not mechanical reasons.
Alright, I see now. Thanks.
The R44 and 46s should be scrapped. They are the biggest pieces of garbage I've ever seen. Slow, big, fat, and those SEATS!!!!!!!!! The R32s and 38s are king. I love them.
Then again, I'm big, slow and fat, too. Well, they should still go. After all, it takes one to know one. :)
Tony
whats wrong withR-44 R-46 interior? The A/C on the 46 is very acceptable, there is a ;ot of standing room, the seating is fine if you are not overly obese so that it becomes a Department Of Urban Development hazard, and they aren't as slow as one might think,plus on the 44s ypu can lean on the plastic divider by the door, and their aperarence is a modern look and sometimes riding the R-44s on the A makes you feel like you are on a commuter railroad. Its cool, I really dont know about the technical aspect, but im sure C/R and T/Os appreciate transverse cabs to smoke, eat, pleasure themselves, or read while operating, but as I heard before a lot of them dont like single handle operation.
The R-46s are OK.
I got accepted to City Tech college! My dad, a QV B/O went there as well. One question though, if u were me, what course would u take that might have some relation to Train operation, because I wanna be either a Locomotive Engineer or Motorman
Thanks
Congratulations on acceptance to college. Your Dad must be very proud of you. I know all of us on this website wish you well. Study hard, and make something of yourself! Is this a two year or four-year school?
One question from me: Have you also thought about studying engineering (civil, mechanical, electrical) and applying that to transit? Or studying finance or economics with an eye to applying them to transit? Just something to mull over.
I am not a transit professional, but I would think that getting a good dose of math and physical sciences wouldn't hurt, and taking a variety of other courses to broaden your horizons wouldn't either.
I'll let the real transit people give you their advice.
To become a Train Operator, all that is required is a high school diploma. That's been for the last 3 years, before that there were no education requirements.
Good luck on going to college, but it isn't necessary for T/O. Just keep your eye out for the next TA civil service test.
Maybe there's a course called "Foamer 101" that should help steer you in the right direction.....;-D
BMTman
Today's News has a short piece on the IRT City Hall station in it's Secret City feature. With a major error...let's see who spots it first!
That's pretty easy. The article suggests you stay on-board, but the loop track is now not main line, so passengers are prohibited to stay on trains.
Right, but that's not the error I saw. This one's much worse!
The Composites were made of wood and steel and I think metal.After that the HI V's came along , they were all steel cars.
Interesting. I say that beacuse depending on who you talk to (even on here) you will get different stories.
One person told me that you can ride around now, another told me you can't.
Will someone get the correct version.
Thanks
It's really very simple. A few years ago the TA changed the designation of the City Hall Loop track from a yard track to part of the main line. This meant that customers could stay aboard while the trains traversed the loop. Subsequently, due to security concerns related to terrorism, the Mayor's office asked that the public not be permitted to ride through the loop.
In preparation for the upcoming Train Dispatcher promotion test, a pile of bulletins have been re-released, including the one concerning the City Hall loop track. According to this bulletin, dated in the the last two weeks (memory fails as to the exact date and since I'm on vacation, I 'm not even going to look), City HAll Loop is mainline track, and as such, customers may remain on board.
Excellent news, thanks Alex. Maybe one of our SubTalk friends who
is on duty can give us the GO number in case we need to quote it
to a T/O or C/R who doesn't know about the change in status.
Actually, it's a bulletin (rule book revision) and not a GO. If no one posts it before me, I'll post the # tomorrow.
Now, for a short while, railfans can stay on and use the excuse, "but the newspaper said that we could."
The station isnt below the Brooklyn Bridge station. City Hall station is South of Brooklyn Bridge, The only way you can stay on the train is if you either hide from the conductor or the conductor isnt looking towards the rear of the train.You cant see it from the railfan window either, The T/O will kick you off the train!!!!You haave to ride south loop and head north again.
I noticed that, but I think they meant "below" in the "south of" sense.
I didn't notice that, but I think the writer was getting the City Hall BMT and IRT stations confused.
(The BMT City Hall station has a closed lower level.)
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/cityhall.gif
I don't think so, as the article clearly describes the IRT station and mentions that the line went west on 42nd St.
In 1904 it did. Look on the IRT history on the site.
Everyone here knows the original IRT went on 42 St. The error in the article, once again, was saying that the road traveled under B'way SOUTH OF 42 St. (Remember, the writer had the line going up B'way to 42, then west, then north AGAIN under B'way!)
Its such an obvious error, its easy to miss: "carried the party under Broadway"...
We've got a winner! The Broadway part of the run uptown began at 42nd (Times Square) and went north from there. Partial credit though ... part of the ride was on Broadway. :)
I was embarassed to realize I had to read over the story twice before I got it. I was looking for little stuff like "was it 1945...?" "yeah, it was October...".
An old Army sergeant I knew had an expression for it: "it is was a snake, it woulda bit ya." ;-)
I figured it out as soon as I got to it, but you beat me to the post.
And that is obviously for what Randy was looking.
Bingo! Just thought I'd see how long it took. The reference to "copper-sheathed wooden cars" seemed funny also, but I wasn't sure.
All depends on how you define "wooden cars." The Copperside were copper-sheated wood, but the main frame was steel--I'm not sure above the floor line.
A lot of "wooden cars" had substantial steel components, especially underbodies.
Heh. But you STILL got it before anyone else in the thread ... aren't you glad that as you get older it's the mind that goes first and not a vital organ? ;)
Some organs are more vital than others ;-)
The mind doesn't go, it just has lots more info and the filing system takes longer to address it. In some circles, this is callled "wisdom".
Having an edatic memory is fun, especially when everybody else realizes that you remember almost everything for the last 40 years or so.
Actually, part of the loop/station is under Broadway (it even connected to the Woolworth building on the other side of Broadway), so this is either what they meant, or it is what threw them off.
Actually, part of the loop/station is under Broadway (it even connected to the Woolworth building on the other side of Broadway
There was an entrance from the Woolworth Building?
The 2/3 had an entrance from the Woolworth Building for the Park Place station, but the City Hall station for the 6 is a good 1 1/2 blocks away. There could have been a tunnel, but it would have been there an awfully short time -- the City Hall Station was built in 1904, the Woolworth Building went up four years later, and the BMT City Hall stop went in seven years after that.
If you did a 3-D schematic of the City Hall area, the upper level of the N/R in front of the Woolworth Building is one level below the street, while the 4/5 tracks coming from Brooklyn Bridge to Fulton Street rise up from two levels below the street at BB to one level below at Fulton (which is why the Vescy St. "S" curve is there on the N/R) while the un-used lower level of the BMT City Hall Station and the City Hall loop for the 6 are two levels down. Three levels down is the 2/3, running across City Hall Park from Park Place to Beekman Street.
While that makes it hard for there to have been a tunnel from the IRT City Hall station to the Woolworth Building, on the other hand, if they ever do decide to move the Transit Museum from Brooklyn to Manhattan, they could build a connecting tunnel from the south end of the lower level BMT City Hall station to the IRT City Hall Station, since they are on the same level.
That would allow the MTA to store the historic subway cars in the BMT station (with more space -- three tracks instead of two) and put displays in the connecting tunnel (including a more prominent display on the Beach pneumatic tube), while giving people a chance to view the city's first IRT subway station. Some sort of plexiglas could be installed between the track and platform and the No. 6 trains could continue to use the loop while the platform would be part of a "living museum," so to speak.
on the other hand, if they ever do decide to move the Transit Museum from Brooklyn to Manhattan
Please make that expand. Im sure there could be complementary exhibits and historic cars, (like the Redbirds!)
John.
That would allow the MTA to store the historic subway cars in the BMT station (with more space -- three tracks instead of two) ...
While your idea is a good one, the lower level of BMT City Hall is used for layups. Doubtful that the TA would "donate" this space to the museum anytime soon.
--Mark
Connect the IND at Hudson Terminal to the BMT at Cortlandt St. (and the Montague St. tunnel to the IND Court St. station), connect the BMT Broadway local tracks from Canal St. to the Centre St. line at Chambers St., and use the BMT City Hall station at the Transit Museum. Voila!
There would be a loss of space (presumable two to three trains that are parked in the station) but lay-up tracks would need less space for storage if they ever got the Manny B operating again, since there would be less of a jam in the Montague Street tunnel and less of a need to turn back trains at Canal and Whitehall.
Weekend storage would be another matter, but not a insurmountable one.
Are you sure? The two-level BMT City Hall station is on Broadway there, and the 2/3 passes yet another level down. Where does the 6 squeeze in?
I got accepted to City Tech college! My dad, a QV B/O went there as well. One question though, if u were me, what course would u take that might have some relation to Train operation, because I wanna be either a Locomotive Engineer or Motorman
Thanks
i want ther and ther is nothing to do the being a T/O.
Robert
How much money is added to the price of a standard, full-size pickup truck to outfit it with rail wheels? Does it then operate using all speeds on its transmission that it would use on the highway?
I am not sure what you mean. Most rail/road vehicles (called hi-railers) can run on both the rails and the road w/o modifacation. For rail running there are little flanged guide wheels that are lowered into place and then serve to keep the vehicle on the rails as it is propelled by it's standard rubber road wheels. Is this the type of modifacation you were refering to?
Yes, that was what I was referring to. I've seen CSX use something like that. The pickup has rail wheels which lower for rail travel and retract for highway travel. I wanted to know how the transmission is hooked up for this etc. How much extra does it cost to do that.
The rail wheels are not powered. They just guide the vehicle. The normal road wheels propell the truck w/ the normal transmission.
Thank you! Cleared that one up. So the additional equipment is not expensive.
It is indeed, because it needs to be properly attached to the frame. Some vehicles may have 'lift-type' hi-rail packages, where the drive wheels engage a pinion, instead of the rail. The ones that directly contact the rail are more efficent, however.
-Hank
"...drive wheels engage a pinion, instead of the rail."
And the pinion engages the rail? I'm having trouble visualizing how this works.
Thanks for your kind explanation.
It's call a Hy-Rail vehicle. The steel wheels are used for "steering" only; the tires run along the rails and provide traction.
Maybe I'm missing something here but if the steel wheels are only for steering and the rubber tires are still on the ground providing traction, wouldn't that make for a very bumpy ride over the wooden ties????
Actually, the rubber wheels ride on the rails as well. The "steel wheels" just help keep them in place. And it's fun to just let go of the steering wheel, knowing you ain't going anywhere (sideways at least) ... all part of that wonderous lineage where wheel widths STILL conform largely to the dimensions of Roman chariots.
An Army buddy farmer from Oklahoma told me that his older brother used to put his car on the single track lightly-used freight track to drive the 100 miles to the nearest town, letting some air out of the tires to stay on the rails, then sit back and get there in an hour (in the 1950's), getting off at a grade crossing by a gas station to pump up the tires again. The last time he did it he saw a headlight. He successfuly left the track, but had to drive miles overland on soft tires before finding a road. He learned his lesson the easy way.
Heh. One should always phone ahead, at least to the NEXT tower. :)
Great scene in the old classic flick "Flim Flam Man" starring George C. Scott involving low tire pressure and rails and a pickup truck. I recommend it all even if it's campy so many years after its release.
I read somewhere in TRAINS magazine about hi-rail vehicles, and that the movements of those vehicles are strictly controlled by the dispatchers to avoid accidents with regular trains. They have to radio to the dispatcher for permission to enter the ROW to get to an assignment. I would not recommend any do-it-yourself modifications of a 4x4 or Ford pickup for that purpose, as the law enforcement crowd would not be very understanding. You have to think safety at all times, and a head-on isn't something on anybody's wish list, except if one is suicidal.
Agreed. I wasn't planning on buying one.
I noticed that the approach of such a vehicle does not activate railroad crossing gates or lights. Weight-based sensors, obviously...
Weight-based sensors, obviously...
No, hi-railers (or track cars) do not shunt the track circut (although I have seen some that do) and therefore they don't trip signals to stop or show up on the dispatchers occupancy screen.
Thank you. So what you're saying is, any railroad employees who use a vehicle like that need to tell control by radio or telephone where they are all the time, because otherwise nobody would know they're on the track!
More specifically, hy-rail crews need orders just like trains.
Track-cars (the general category) require absolute block protection. Basically the towerman or dispatcher has to rope off a section of track between two control points. He makes sure the stretch of track is clear of trains, sets the signals that would allow movement into the segment to STOP and then applies "Blocking Devices" to all the "levers" that control said switches/signals. I quote those terms because most of those things are all electronic figments nowadays.
What you describe seems to be the safest way to handle it.
Those hi-rail trucks can go fast, I remember seeing one whiz by in the opposite direction on an out of service track on the Port Washington line.
Well just think, you put these rail wheels on your truck and you can try your luck on abandoned rail lines. All you gotta do is clear the brush!
That would give new meaning to "all-terrain recreation vehicle."
I think you just invented something here!
>>Those hi-rail trucks can go fast, I remember seeing one whiz by in the opposite direction on an out of service track on the Port washington line.<<
Well that's because when a hi-rail goes backwards, it has 4 or 5 REVERSE gears and 1 FORWARD gear (the wheels have to turn in the opposite direction in order to go in the proper direction).
"Well that's because when a hi-rail goes backwards, it has 4 or 5 REVERSE gears and 1 FORWARD gear (the wheels have to
turn in the opposite direction in order to go in the proper direction)."
Are you referring to something other than a standard Chevy or Ford pickup with rail wheels? Reverse gears?
I was referring to when the tires turn the wheels, the wheels will turn in the opposite direction to the powered (or driving) wheels (which are the tires). thus in normal mode, your transmission will have either 4 or 5 forward gears and one reverse, in hi-rail mode, everything becomes the opposite. It's a matter of physics.
Thanks. So in essence, when you get on the track, you're driving the pickup truck "backwards," right?
Exactly.
No No NO! You're thinking that the rubber tyres turn a seperate set of rail wheels. The rail wheels provide no traction what-so-ever. The hi-railer drives on the tracks just like a car drives on a road.
Both types are out there. The first I saw on the LIRR on Atlantic Av. had the truck moving backwards to propell the wheels forward. All the rest I've seen since that simply have the tires running on the rails, with totally separate sets of flange wheels between the front and rear wheels keeping it on the rails.
Had someone earlier suggested that the rubber tires were driving the flanged wheels? Can't say that I've ever seen that. However, anything and everything has happened in railroading. Do tell!
>>> I was referring to when the tires turn the wheels, the wheels will turn in the opposite direction to the powered (or driving) wheels (which are the tires) <<<
That seems like an unnecessarily complicated arrangement. If the tires are not providing direct traction with the rail, there would probably be a power transmission from the axle to the rail wheels with enough gearing to insure that forward gears were providing forward motion.
Tom
Hate to tell you this, but if that abandoned stretch of track has a bridge missing, you could be in for a really steep and sudden drop, with little chance of rescue due to the location being in a remote area. I often wondered why railroads would just leave tracks in place on abandoned lines. Would the salvage of the track be too costly to them? Some kind of disposition plan should be made for the ROW as well, since it could attract less than desirable elements to an area.
Agreed. In Philly, there is a stretch of abandoned track and bridges which is truly no longer needed because all SEPTA commuter rail now uses the tunnel through the Center City district. I'm wondering if that stretch of ROW, with tracks, broken bridge segments and even catenary, couldn't be redeveloped into open space - a big park on top of part of the commuter tunnel (like Boston is doing with the Big Dig) or perhaps a mix of parkland and commercial space or (you fill in what you like).
It would take some cleaning up, tracks removed, poles, wires and old signals removed, and environmental mitigation (solvent spills, trash etc.). But the location should be attractive.
We are on the same page! Instead of letting all of that property lay in waste, a good use for it should be found. How about making some of the local elected officials earn their keep by writing them and getting them to move? All venues should be explored, and if the abandoned ROW could serve as an expansion for a local transit line, guess who makes out good in the bargain? Still, if it is there, make use of it.
The Reading CC viaduct should be kept in place as it as a monument to the Reading and for future railfan exploration.
Why, The Reading Terminal is now a monument to the old railroad (in addition to being The grand Hall of The Convention Center).
I read somewhere in TRAINS magazine about hi-rail vehicles, and that the movements of those vehicles are strictly controlled by the dispatchers to avoid accidents with regular trains. They have to radio to the dispatcher for permission to enter the ROW to get to an assignment. I would not recommend any do-it-yourself modifications of a 4x4 or Ford pickup for that purpose, as the law enforcement crowd would not be very understanding. You have to think safety at all times, and a head-on isn't something on anybody's wish list, except if one is suicidal
Dang! I was about to toss a set on my Rodeo and spend a week's vacation exploring the rails ... ah, it doesn't matter, I've got a lease and I strongly suspect Isuzu Motors Acceptance would not be very understanding :-)
Did anyone get shot of the transfers.
Robert
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When these subway cars were out of service in the late 1980s why didn't the TA just rebuilt like 100 or less of those & but them back for service like for 10 more years back? I know it was difficult to rebuilt them because they were all single subway cars. Does anybody know!
The R14 and 15 were too old, the R16 too shitty and heavy. There were factions who wanted to retain 100 R22's as some were still in pretty good shape and only 30 years old. But ridership was either dropping or leveled off and the TA wanted to clean up the roster.
The GOH R30's definitely should not have been scrapped in hindsight.
The R12 and R14 used older pneumatic doors which were completely obsolete by the mid 1980's. The R15/R17/R21 & R22 were in very bad shape, and because they were single units, room for A/C equipment was not available.
Although they looked like R10's which had pneumatic doors the R12/14 had electric doors.
If the will were there to salvage the R12-22 it could have been done and they could have added A/C by putting new, larger compressors and motor generator or convertor sets thereby making them almost-R26-36. I'm sure it could have been done but then there's no limit to what things can cost so they were let go.
I will verify that they were in very bad shape; when I worked the A divison in 1970 and 71 they were terrible, the R26-33 not too good either; good trains were the exception. On my 1975 stint there they were somewhat better. OK I'll say Queens was OK and so was Pelham but they didn't have any 12, 14, 15 there. If nothing else the R26-36 kept the IRT moving even if they needed work too. Maintenance was BAD everywhere but it showed up worst on the IRT.
I figured I'd try my luck on the D today. Now there must be work on the 6th ave express tracks north of W4th as they are closed.
I took the 7 to Times Square and walked through that long, crowded passageway to 8th ave line.
I just miss a D, closes it's doors just as I get to the staircase. After waiting a little more than 15 minutes for another one I realized maybe I should've ran for it.
When the next D finally came it was packed. And it was SLOW. The Hippo moaned it's way all the way down to WTC. I've rode E's and C's on the 8th ave local and it wasn't nearly as slow. There wasn't any train in front of us, the Hippo (R68) just crawled. And it took forever to stop.
After getting to WTC and seeing the Hippo in the station (which looked out of place, for a Hippo anyway) I caught a D train back up to W4th. D's from Brooklyn were terminating there, than turning around in the dash to get to the Brooklyn bound track.
Another short but packed Hippo ride to Grand street. After looking at things mystical I went back to Grand street for the D. The uptown platform was packed, there was literally almost no room to move to the front. When the D came I squeezed on, it was packed. With no B's running the D is taking twice the load and you could see it.
At W4th many people unaware of the G.O. stayed on the train until the C/R started shutting the lights off getting everybody to leave. For stops further up 6th you have to take the F.
Going uptown on the F i saw a work train at 42nd street on the express track. I wonder what they are doing? Probably getting everything ready for the Manny B switch-over in a few months. Preparing the dash to park trains (gasp!).
Also one other note, I saw several trains with lights partially out. In fact the F I rode in had half the lights. Well the good thing about that is it gave a great view into the cab and out the window.
Everytime they mess up B and D service on the weekends it's chaos. Just wait till they do the bridge switch!
so was the 4 thats why the d was crowded up in the bronx. why does everyone call the R-68 a hippo? because it has a stocky look and sharp edged, it looks more like a rhino. the R-44/46 looks more like a hippo because its more round looking
Hippo (n): A large, heavy, lumbering animal that spends large amounts of time in the water and takes forever to get up to speed and slow down.
R-68 (n): A large, heavy, lumbering subway car that spends large amounts of time in the river tunnels and takes forever to get up to speed and slow down.
See?
Dan
but, so does the R-44/46
Keep talking. You're getting Sea Beach Fred good and pissed off. But that is par for the course. I know I'm an old warhorse, but when I was a kid, honest to goodness, all you heard about the Sea Beach was what a great line it was. When they wrote books, they wrote them about my line, when there were articles in the paper about the subway it was about the Sea Beach. It was fast, express, and those Triplexes were the cat's meow. I know I sometimes live inthe past when it comes to the New York Subway, but it really sets me off when I see what the powers-that-be have done to my favorite line.
The reason for the change was platform work on the express platforms at 42nd st. If there was work in the dash they simply would have run local. There was also chaos in Brooklyn, B runs local from 36th to CI in both directions while N runs express from 36th to CI on the B.
This is the first time in a while I have seen the 53rd / 7th ave station 100% closed.
They couldn't just run the B through there an have it switch just before 42nd and switch back at 47-50? Or they cannot do that to/from CPW?
All that chaos for just platform work. Geesh.
The Brighton a mess? Isn't mess and Brighton synonomous anyway. And then you throw the West End into. What a combo, the West End and the Brighton---the worst of everything. Long live the Sea Beach.
Sorry Fred, the Sea Beach was also a mess: Coney Island-bound N trains ran express on the local on the B tracks.
John.
BTW: I noticed that the B is being resignalled, with the new signals being about 30' further south than the existing ones. Does anyone know whats happening here?
Oh well, John L., It was good while it lasted. But running express on the local B tracks doesn't sound bad to me. Any time the Sea Beach can run express, under any circumstances, is a victory for an old Sea Beach warhorse like me.
"The N runs as express. Did I hear right? Music to my ears.
express under 4th ave only
The whole B division is pretty pitiful except for the E. The N and R are among the better of the B divison lines.
The worst? Definately the A, B, D, F, and J/Z. You only have to wait several years for a train.
The A in the Rockaways: Bring a long book. Deadheads and shuttle train arrivals make waiting in the reverse-rush particularly annoying at Broad Channel.
Weekend service everywhere sucks (if waiting for a specific line), I think the only exceptions I've found are the shuttles, the 7, E, 1, G, and 6. Weekday service I find is actually quite decent with exception to the J/M/Z and the individual As (overnight, midday, and weekend As have almost the same frequency of service!).
Thank for the telling me this. I have to work the uptown part of the "D".
Robert
The whole B division is pretty pitiful except for the E. The N and R are among the better of the B divison lines.
The worst? Definately the A, B, D, F, and J/Z. You only have to wait several years for a train.
N and R better? If they're so much better, how is it that I have to wait 10 minutes for an R during the evening rush? Hm? The Never and Rarely are far too infrequent to qualify as "good." Long live the A division! (and the QB express, once they finish working on the 53rd st. tunnel and the slow speed GO is lifted)
Dan
I have yet to ride the whole system. In my past experiences, the N and R rank better than the other B division lines I have ridden. More often than not, when I take those two lines (except for the fact the N is almost always right behind the R and vice versa), service is good and I get from point A to point B easily. I've been at 49th Street after shows let out and often, a train pulls in before I can get to the head of the train. I also took an R from Court Street to 8th Street in the evening rush hour and service was fast and it wasn't crowded either.
The N and R do earn the never and rarely titles but other lines deserve it more.
Come by my place when you're in California and I'll give you a medal. An "N" fan. Amazing. As for the "R", well my childhood nightmares about the 4th Avenue Local are enough to just pass on that line.
danilm: Enough of the crap of knocking the Sea Beach. Just remember this, Sea Beach Fred is hearing and reading everything you say. But I do wonder why it takes longer for an "N" train than it does other lines. Ask the damn TA.
>>But I do wonder why it takes longer for an "N" train than it does other lines. Ask the damn TA.<<
Easy: N gets less riders than other lines.
The whole B division is pretty pitiful except for the E. The N and R are among the better of the B divison lines.
The worst? Definately the A, B, D, F, and J/Z. You only have to wait several years for a train.
N and R better? If they're so much better, how is it that I have to wait 10 minutes for an R during the evening rush? Hm? The Never and Rarely are far too infrequent to qualify as "good." Long live the A division! (and the QB express, once they finish working on the 53rd st. tunnel and the slow speed GO is lifted)
What's wrong with both of youse? First off, I don't know how Wmatagmoagh gets off saying that the N and R come more often than any of the other B division trains. F trains are scheduled with the best headways (4 mins) then the E (5 mins). The B and J/Z are pretty bad. But, The A,D and F are hardly trains that you have to wait years for. As was just said, the F is the best.
And, the A div is crap. 50 foot cars. Then, you can only run 10 car trains. That's a full 100 ft shorter than a B div train. What's the use of having frequent trains that are packed full of people.
I say this: Long live the Culver (F) and The 8th Av. express (A).
WMAT: Say What? You say the N is one of the better run lines on the B Division. Well, isn't that some welcome news, an enncouraging word amongst the debris laid out by the TA who had almost completely gutted and neglected my favorite. Maybe I should get off line now while I'm ahead before some bad news come my way.
The Brooklyn part (Coney Island to West 4th St) was just fine. My only complaint was that the railfan window in the Hippo had some optical distortion, so I was seeing two sets of rails.
I went Coney Island to West 4th St, then took the D (running on the E local) to WTC. When I got there, there were clueless passengers who wondered why the train had stopped and they werent going to Brooklyn.
You have to wonder whether some people are really part of the human race. On the way from Coney Island, each GO was announced at least 10 times: no stopping at W 8th St, only running to W 4th St etc. Even then, we arrived at W 4th St and the CR had to almost beg people to get off!
Yeah even with all the announcements there are many clueless souls out there. When I took the D from Grand to W4th yesterday, I was almost the only one who got off, until I saw the C/R making announcements (plus the announcements in the station) and flickering lights.
If people are confused now, there's gonna be chaos come July 1st.
Stop the confusion, don't get upset, be cool, have a grand time. Just take the Sea Beach and all your cares are gone. Why waste your time on the R, D, and B. Go N and be happy. Next stop 62nd Street and New Utrecht, and get a good look at that mini-tunnel we're going to go under. What a hoot.
I caught a R-68 (D) at 34th St/Penn Station. R-68s on the 8th Ave subway south of 59th St/Columbys Circle is a bit unusual.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well the ride seemed much slower than usual. Just proves the point at how slow the R68 Hippos really are.
I can't remember a weekend with more GOs- at least since way back on November 6-7, 1999. We rode both days, and I must be the only one who checks the diversion notices on the MTA website or the signs on the platforms- or listens to the announcements, which were actually made.
On Saturday we entered 65th Street Manhattan-bound and just missed an 'F'. A few people were standing on the platform as if they'd been there a while. There were signs announcing the absence of 'E' service this weekend. A few minutes later the 'R' came. They didn't get on, but looked impatiently down the tracks. What were they WAITING for?
At Queens Plaza, the conductor made many announcements visa ve the lack of connections to any other service. There were still many people facing the express tracks on both sides- and lifting up the orange tape to see if anything was coming!
Later we entered 72nd/Broadway downtown in time for a '1' to arrive on the express track, as per the posted GO and tape on the local side of the platform. A woman already on the train asked if it'd be stopping at 59th Street, and was given the response that there was no downtown local service; she'd have to turn around at Times Square. She disgustedly got off and looked down the local track.
(We did see a lot of people on the local platform at 66th. Apparently they got there from the crossunder at the downtown end that's funded and maintained by Lincoln Center, not the MTA.)
Yesterday we set out specifically to ride the 'N' to Coney as an express over the West End line as per the website. We took the 'F' to West 4th, noticing that at Rock Center, 42nd and 34th, people were waiting for 'B's and 'D's that were not running due to another GO. We caught the 'D' going into service at West 4th, while many other people stood on the platform apparently waiting for the 'B' despite signs and announcements (from the station PA, the train PA and platform conductors) that the 'B' would only be available at 36th Street. Many people similarly passed up our 'D' at Broadway-Laff and Grand Street as well.
We caught an 'N' (unfortunately a 68) at DeKalb, and saw many people waiting for the 'B' at Pacific. Saw an employee trying to tell these people to grab our train to 36th Street; most wouldn't move, including one man leaning right against a pillar with a service notice on it.
We pulled into 36th the same time as a 'B' going into service. Many people chose our train, falsely believing it would be making its usual stops- again, despite many announcements. One person asked "53rd?", and was told to wait for the 'R'. She stayed on the 'N'.
Of course, as soon as we turned into daylight, everyone started panicking and looking at the map- lotta good THAT'LL do. Many people cut out at 9th Avenue to turn around and start over. The Hippo we were on gave a nice, speedy run down the New Utrecht straightaway, making me wish there were a regular West End express service- alleged lack of demand notwithstanding. At 62nd, a few people bailed out to get "the right train to Kings Highway". Some people were relieved to see we WERE stopping at Bay Parkway "after all". True, but a mile south of usual.
It took quite a few minutes to cross over four tracks to get into Coney. A new operator was waiting at the inbound end of the platform, ready to take the train back out. The conductor announced that anyone wishing missed Sea Beach stops should STAY ON THIS TRAIN, which would be returning to Manhattan immediately; 86th Street next. Naturally, everyone rushed into the 'N' on the other track, and got all in an uproar when our original train pulled out.
After getting an 'F' to Fort Hamilton Parkway and nature walking in Prospect Park (which I've come to prefer to Central- much less crowded), we caught a Manhattan-bound 'D', whose conductor warned us many times would make its last stop West 4th, and clearly outlined all the options for continuing uptown.
The first comment heard after we got kicked off at W4 was "You mean this WON'T go to Queens?" That person was advised by a fellow passenger to get the 'C' or 'E' upstairs! Of course, neither one was running at all due to GO this weekend- and the 'C' stopped running ANYWHERE in Queens nine years ago!
The only other oddity that day was some people who wouldn't board theR-142A at Astor Place because "that can't be the '6'- the '6' has a green circle, not red."
Next weekend, there will be normal service through 53rd Street for the first time in months, but the Shea-Main Street bus shuttle'll be back, and no service through 60th Street at all, which reduces the 'N' in Queens and 'R' in Brooklyn to shuttles.
Not a very nice thing to do to all the mothers!
I was actually thinking about this while I was working. The MTA paid for those "digital" date and clocks on many stations (I think they're LED or something like that but anyway that's not my point) and it's just a complete waste if they're on platforms and its only use is to show dates, times, and (at least I've seen on Queens Blvd) the frequency of train service on specific lines. If that is just a test for furture projects, fine, but as of now, it's probably a multi-million dollar waste. Here's what I was thinking:
Along each platform there's a sign which shows the train, avenue of operation, its destination, and times of service. How about making those signs LED along with a sign which shows the line in its rightful color. Examples:
Let's say we're at Times Square on the 1/2/3/9
Under normal operations the led would display what it currently says on the signs. At nights the express side would change its sign to read in bold letters "No service on express platforms. Use local trains." Also the signs showing the 2 and 3 would say "Not in service" The local platform would show the red circled 1 (not showing 9 since it's not running) and a red circle 2 saying "(bold) Local service only (unbold) To Flatbush Avenue"
And if GO's are in place, you can have the orange tape over the area as they do now, but with those LED signs, people can read them knowing that at least things get updated on those signs. And here's a kicker....display them in other languages......so that it would get the attention of more than just the English reading riders.
Another example....
34 St. on the N/R
Let's say a train went OOS at 23 st. The train would arrive on the express platform. On the local side as the train is approaching...all the signs would flash (maybe with a gentle tone signaling riders to look at the signs)..."Next N will appear on express platform. Due to an emergency situation, the next few trains will be going express." Again display this in more than just 1 language. Then the express platform which before would show "Not in service" and "All trains on local platforms" would switch to display the N and R service with the word Bway Express instead of local.
Think about how it would help peoplp who look up at those signs currently and see an R at Jamaica Center on some weekends or an E on Broadway. The red and white service notices are still required for people to be aware of the problem, but do you think there would be less confusion if a "digital" sign system was set up like this so that those that ride certain trains can ride others with a little more confidence.
A final example.
Let's say the E is running to Whitehall instead of WTC and the R is not running. The signs on the platforms in Manhattan would read "(Blue Circle E {I think it'd be too confusing to display a Yellow Circled E}) Broadway Local to Jamaica Center. (in bold) R riders: please use E trains which stop at ALL normal R stations in Manhattan and Queens. THERE IS NO R SERVICE"
Again display this in all major languages spoken in NY and things should be a little easier hopefully.
I hope this topic will be at least dicussed so that I can hear other ideas about this. I'd like to see something like this happen sometime in the future.
Comments, Questions, Concerns?
=)
That's a good idea. Unfortunately, that hardly solves the problem that Howard saw. That problem is called gross ignorance.
A woman was told directly NO LOCAL SERVICE!!!! Yet, she gets off to wait for a local train. You can put up a chain link fence, and people will still try to find a way to get on the train that won't be coming.
I've heard people make clear announcements, and then watched as puzzled passengers asked questions like: Is this train going into manhattan? Did the announcement just say no? Could've swore that it did.
Once, an R-44 pulls into B'way Nassau. People get on. Then a man asks me: C train? Now, does this look like a C? Says A on the front. Says it on the side. Conductor just said: "A train". What do you think it was?
People get set in their ways and never want to change them. Suddenly, their train is changing, and now, the world must end. It's just like people asking a group of track workers if a train is coming. Do they have a light-up board in front of them? How the hell are they supposed to know if the D is on time? They have no idea. Similarly, if announcements are made, signs are posted and conductors are there, then there's adequate help for people. I could understand a person who doesn't speak english getting lost. But when it says that your train is stopping short in your language, then it's your responsibility to get up and follow directions. It's like when the 'C' was shut down for a month. People watched in bewilderment as E trains ran in brooklyn. Except at local only stops, people would wait for an 'A' even though they could take an E, which came more often, and was often fairly empty. Hell, not only were there signs, but I heard about this on the Radio, New York 1, and read it in the newspaper. If that can't help people out, that digital sign won't work either.
I think the signs are a good idea for immediate notification of service changes due to delays, GO's, etc. It could work like those signs you see on expressways. You're absolutely right that it won't help "stupid" people, but at least it will help the thinking ones.
It could work like those signs you see on expressways.
Those signs on the expressways work? I beg to differ. Having VMSs (Variable Message Signs) on the lower BQE and lower FDR warning me about long-term construction on Queens Blvd is all well and good, but not if they neglect to mention a multi-vehicle accident with fuel spill closing the ramp to the Brooklyn Bridge or the fact that the 3rd Ave/Willis Ave Bridge is closed in both directions. Jams like that can be avoided if you know about them.
Of course, there is always the temporary sign on the S/B FDR around 116 St. that alternates between 'BETWEEN APRIL 1 AND MAY 6' and 'FDR EXIT CLOSED'. See the problem -- it neglects to mention which exit is closed.
Being one of those people making announcements, I can guarantee that the stories told above are true, because I've witnessed them all. Ican even go one better - I've watched them staring down the local track waiting for a train that isn't running, and NEVER NOTICING that there is NO RAIL on the roadbed. When they get that stupid, all you can do is leave them there; hopefully they'll figure out what's going on before 5:00am Monday morning when service resumes.
Something similar to what we have in DC.
Note: The DC System was delayed 4 years and even after that, it took another years before the signs started to go into testing. They are still having problems now. And, when there was a major delay, the Metro Managers couldn't get the signs to display the emergency information.
Great idea except in between trains, it should say (we are at 77th Street BTW):
< 6 >PELHAM BAY PARKLEXINGTON LCLPELHAM THRU-EXP2 MINUTES
During this countdown, the GO info would run. Let's say during this time period, the express is being diverted onto the local. After the announcement above was displayed, the screens could change to say this:
ATTENTION PASSENGERSDUE TO A SERVICE DIVERSION,EXPRESS TRAINS WILL MAKE ALLLOCAL STOPS TO 125 ST
What do you think of this?
Once again:
The idiots will still scratch their heads, look at the sign pretending to read and then ask: Is the 4 going express? When you say no, they'll go look down the tracks, watching for the lights of a train.
I posted before I read your response and I will quote whoever answered it.
The average passenger should notice the big green and orange LEDs flashing at them. Remember, a big LED is more captivating than a small red and white piece of paper on a column, probably obstructed in the first place.
The money might be worth it but the cheap GO signs do work to some extent. Again, look at how much trouble WMATA has had with these things.
Beautiful.
THanks. It is great in DC (when it works).
Those signs also periodically give safety announcements (like, "stand back from the platform edge, etc etc"), accompanied by an automated announcement recording played very intelligibly over a P.A. system. At least, they do that at Bowling Green station.
I've actually been in the N/R part of Union Square and had those signs display real G.O. information. Once, it was the first weekend they ran trains through the 63 St connector to Queens Blvd, and it displayed the relevant E/F/R diversion information (again, accompanied by the same announcement made over a P.A. system). Another time it was during the months when uptown N/R trains ran express from Canal to 34th, and the signs and announcements indicated that diversion as well. However, I haven't heard any recently, or at any other stations. (Then again, I tend to be stuck in Union Square late at night when I have nothing to do but stare at those LED signs for 20 minutes.) And, I've never seen them give real-time information, only information that was obviously preprogrammed.
I don't understand why these multi-color LED signs are a separate system from the small red LED signs that tell you when a train is approaching on a particular track. They couldn't get the two systems to talk?
At a few places they have replaced the old red sign, like over here at Myrtle Wyckoff where on the mezzanines they inform you whether it's the Manhattan or Queens bound M or Manhattan or Canarsie bound L. They even make a cheap bullet with a yellow lwtter in a red circle. In full color, this would be cool.
As for why the new end signs are red only, I guess they've determined that the low red/high yellow range is the most visible. They should have used the amber for the IRT signs to avoid the confusion, but perhaps they wanted red as the only color (beside the white headlights) associated with the oncoming train (sort of like the tail lights)
Who is going to monitor the signs and change them everytime a new message needs to be displayed? The signs that tell you when an uptown or downtown train is coming are activated by the trains going over a signaling device in the track. (like the gates at grade crossings) Also most people ignore ALL SIGNS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS because it is easier to ask then pay attention or read the signs.
The confusion alot of these ignorant riders cause scares me more than the G.O.'s themselves.
I'm sorry I missed it. I rode a bit up north on the 1 and the A and there were no disruptions there, except a not-in-service 1 through 168th followed by an in-service train that skipped 157th and 145th (passengers waiting at those stations must have been thrilled to see not one but two trains pass them).
Why would someone expect the D to run to Queens?
When I looked last week (after the latest GO's were added), there was no mention of a GO on the B. Now there is -- anybody know when it was added?
Next weekend, you're right about the N, but the R is simply running through 63rd instead of 60th.
You evidently haven't read the Train Rider's Code, subtitled "How any Intelligent Person can become a Goose."
Rule #1. When you get on a train, you turn off your brain.
Rule #2. Once you've learned where a route goes, it's yours forever, and don't let anyone tell you different.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Last week I was in New York City for a week due to a death in the family. I did manage a day away by myself during that week and went for some exploring on the subway. Last time I did that was about 22 years ago.
Some observations:
I am partial to the Brighton line as I was raised in Sheepshead Bay. I did get a Q express to Manhattan- at least I can see out of the front car because you can't do the same on the D local (I tried). Anyways it was great to see the Brighton Express running! The frequency of the trains was great as compared to the sorry system we have here in San Francisco.
I transferred at Atlantic to the 2 for a spin up the West Side - and I got one of those "redbirds" (as I believe they are called) so I can see out the front car. I love the 2 express in Manhattan. I wonder if that is the fastest segment in the subway, especially between 42 and 72 streets.
Since I was also going to a Yankee game (don't fear I am a Giants fan) I got on the 4 train on the return from the game. Disappointing! You can only see through a small window into the conductor's car on my trip back to Brooklyn - not like the Q or 2. Also I had to wait for 4 4 trains to go by until one went back to Brooklyn - the rest stopped at Bowling Green. And with all those 4 trains in service they went so slow! I should have taken the D back but knew I wouldn't get the view as the Q or 2.
I vote for the Q and 2 as the most fun. I hope when the MTA gets new cars you can at least see out of them in front. I do plan to go to NYC once or twice a year now and hope to do some more exploring later.
ScottinSF
Railfan window is becoming a thing of the past. Enjoy it while you can!
Go to Shea and take the 7 exp in the PM that is fun {redbirds and railfan windows} especially the ride above 111 St
Does anyone know why this track is being built north of the broad channel station to almost the north cannel bridge.
CBTC testing for the R-143. Long stretch and no stations for railfans to watch / take pictures from (the main problem with trying this on the Sea Beach). Refitting an existing unused track elsewhere would have been annoying should a G.O. require its use.
"CBTC testing for the R-143. Long stretch and no stations for railfans to watch / take pictures from (the main problem with
trying this on the Sea Beach). Refitting an existing unused track elsewhere would have been annoying should a G.O. require its
use."
I guess this is a stupid question to ask, but have railfans really been getting in the way (that is, actually interfering with TA operations)? I can understand MTA people sometimes losing patience with people, but is it that bad?
No, I don't think they (we) get in the way or anything, but it must be distracting. Anyway it's never good to have witnesses should the train go out of control and de-rail (plus if it happens by a station or on an el customers and nearby people could get injured). The Rockaways may as well be siberia, even if the train explodes no one would notice. Plus the Rockaway line is 100% straight rail for the part with the third track(just like the Dyre). You can do brake tests and whatnot with better accuracy, curves throw things like that off.
Thank you - good points.
I wish them luck with it! We need the cars!
Too bad they couldn't do it from Liberty Avenue to Jamaica Avenue.
Only the NIMBY's and drugees would be watching.
And after R143 testing is done, the track can be used for relaying Rockaway shuttles. No more travelling all the way to JFK to switch the train over.
The shuttlen only goes a little past broad channel on a short fourth track band the back. So that other track will serve no purpose once the test is over.
The other track can be used for layups.
Unless Keanu Reeves needs it for another Speed movie...
This time they should stay away from Speed and do it about Cocaine this time.
Hardy-har-har...:0)
This time they should stay away from Speed and do it about Cocaine this time.
I'll turn myself in to the Department of Redundancy Department I'll turn myself in.
Keanu Reeves ... IS ... Casey Jones and the HH train ... Whoa-oah ... I can see it now ... Keanu Reeves would say, "Hath not a dude eyes? If you prick us, do we not get bummed? If we eat bad guacamole, do we not blow chunks?" Hot lunch ... Excellent! :)
Hey - there's an idea!!! Hiding system expansions under the guise of 'testing" :)
How about:
Electrify the Port Jefferson line to "test" the M-7s...
Building the 2nd ave line to "test" methods of renovating / rebuilding subway stations....
Installing moveable frog switches through Queens and Nassau interlockings to "test" them...
Building a light rail line somewhere to "test" the concept...
Installing air conditioning at Grand Central, 14 street, or Brooklyn Bridge to "test" it...
Opening up BOTH sides of the Manny B to "test" the bridge...
Running Low Vs or Triplexes as a "test" before "ordering" a new "low technology train"....
Installing a third track between Bellerose and Hicksville to "test" the concept...
This could be the start of something big, guys ;)
Installing air conditioning at Grand Central, 14 street, or Brooklyn Bridge to "test" it...
There already is air conditioning at Grand Central.
Running Low Vs or Triplexes as a "test" before "ordering" a new "low technology train"....
EWWW!!!!! What do you want to do, force people to take busses and cabs?
But otherwise I think this "test" thing is great.
There already is air conditioning at Grand Central.
Not that you can feel it unless
- you are standing right under the vent,
- there are no trains in the station, AND
- the platform is not packed solid
So if a train discharges no passengers, and everyone on the platform gets on, there is some benefit to the AC.
(CBTC testing for the R-143. Long stretch and no stations for railfans to watch / take pictures from (the main problem with trying this on the Sea Beach). Refitting an existing unused track elsewhere would have been annoying should a G.O. require its use.)
My understanding is that CBTC tracks will be fitted with regular signals for regular trains. Assuming CBTC works, the regular signals would not be replaced once their 50 year life is up and all non-CBTC cars have been scrapped.
Perhaps they just wanted a place to install without taking yet another track out of service.
Here's an article about CBTC signalling and such.
http://www.railwayage.com/jun00/cbtc.html
I could've sworn it was said that CBTC will be installed after the R143s are delivered.
This track you are referring to is being constructed as a relay track for rockaway service. The work order was on the TA website under Capital Improvements.
The testing for R143MUs was an afterthought. The original purpose of the third track was for a relay track.
This may be a dumb question, but why couldn't they use the lower level of the Culver line instead of building a whole new track?
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's a test track.
Were these the same? What happened to the Transit Commission or the Department of Traffic?
The major cluster of NIMBYs is in Rego Park, their primary concerns are safety and noise. So, how about enclosing the portions near their backyards with walls and a ceiling? After the line crosses Metropolitan ave the residential portion ends. It then goes between a hospital and home depot (no complaints), it would have to go under (New tunnel) a parking lot, Union TPK, and the Crescent Apts park and parking lot. Emerge in Forest Park, no one should complain since there is already a rail line through the park. Line crosses Jamaica ave, then enters an area with a few houses but since it is on an embankment no one should complain. End at Woodhaven, school bus company plus my doubts on the structural integrity of the concrete viaduct to Ozone pk make further extension too annoying. As it is all the bridges would have to be replaced, the entire line re-ballasted and have plants removed.
BTW: My history teacher is the campaign manager of one of the Rockaway / Howard Beach city councilman candidates (forgot which). The guy came in to our history class for one full period, and we had an opportunity to ask questions. I inquired about the Rockaway line, but all he said was that "Rockaway residents have transportation concerns that need to be addressed, and if elected I will address them." Spoken like a true politician. I wonder if he even knows about the line.
You've suggested some things that appear like they could be "do-able." Putting the train in a box is a good idea, esp. when closer to residences (assuming you don't put it underground).
This is not for the immediate future. But it could happen. Give it ten years (enough time to get the 63rd St LIRR tunnel in operation), a new Capital Plan with an opportunity to suggest the project at hearings, and see how it fares when competing with other projects. If successful, it could be operating in the 2015-20 time-frame (??)
JailhouseDoc had a point, though. While we're waiting for budget and capacity, what do we do with that decrepit ROW? It is pretty disgusting.
I've got a better idea. The train goes THRU the parking lot. All automobiles should make way for the mighty train. Trains were here first. Any piece of railroad not being used is a sin. They should all be reactivated. I, personally, would kill to find a place to live where a train goes through my backyard. I'd have NO trouble sleeping.
Flat bed trucks didn't hall cargo in the latter half of the 19th century. Steam engines did. Without trains, this country wouldn't have gotten this far. And without subways, our cities would never have been able to grow.
Sorry about all the preaching. I just felt the need to vent. If those guys can speak their minds about making weed legal downtown, I can speak mine. :)
Tony
I've got a better idea. The train goes THRU the parking lot. All automobiles should make way for the mighty train. Trains were here first. Any piece of railroad not being used is a sin. They should all be reactivated. I, personally, would kill to find a place to live where a train goes through my backyard. I'd have NO trouble sleeping.
If the city actually were going to revive the line, it probably could force the owners of that parking lot to move it.
"If the city actually were going to revive the line, it probably could force the owners of that parking lot to move it."
There are, apparently, illegal "squatters" who helped themselves to MTA ROW along that line. If the line were revived, MTA would have to spend time and $$ kicking them out.
>>> There are, apparently, illegal "squatters" who helped themselves to MTA ROW along that line. <<<
Are they "illegal squatters," or did the ROW revert to the owners of the property due to lack of use? Most ROW's (and streets) are easements over the adjoining private property rather than property owned by the railroad. If not used by the railroad, the property owners have a right to use it. How long it takes for an easement to expire due to non use depends on state law.
For a long time in Los Angeles, there was a set of railroad tracks in the center of Santa Monica Boulevard all the way east to La Brea Avenue with unused spurs branching off to movie studios and former manufacturing facilities. Once a month, in the middle of the night, the railroad that owned the ROW would send an engine and one boxcar down the length of the ROW (at 5mph) to assert its continuing use. Some time in the early 80s the tracks were paved over, but the city had to repurchase the ROW because it was still in use. If the railroad had not continued using the ROW, the city could have paved over the tracks without compensation.
Tom
Thank you for that clarification. Yes, it's entirely possible that is the case. If it is, MTA would have to negotiate the reacquisition of ROW, or take it over by eminent domain (and comensate the property owners).
The entire RoW belongs to the city, maybe even the TA. That was part of the deal is purchasing it from the PRR. The TA simply chose not to run trains on it.
Are they "illegal squatters," or did the ROW revert to the owners of the property due to lack of use? Most ROW's (and streets) are easements over the adjoining private property rather than property owned by the railroad. If not used by the railroad, the property owners have a right to use it. How long it takes for an easement to expire due to non use depends on state law.
It is true that "squatters" can acquire title to unused property through the process known as adverse possession. Most states, however, make specific exceptions for railroad property - in other words, no one can claim title to even an unused ROW. I don't know if New York law has such an exception.
For a long time in Los Angeles, there was a set of railroad tracks in the center of Santa Monica Boulevard all the way east to La Brea Avenue with unused spurs branching off to movie studios and former manufacturing facilities.
I saw traces of that line last February, near Century City. Couldn't figure out what it was.
That line used to bring boxcars with supplies to a bakery that made Wonder Bread - in Beverly Hills! The bakery (a unit of Continental Baking Corp, if I recall correctly) was the last manufacturer left in Beverly Hills. In the 1980's, they switched to truck deliveries.
>>> It is true that "squatters" can acquire title to unused property through the process known as adverse possession. Most states, however, make specific exceptions for railroad property <<<
To obtain title by adverse possession, one must be occupying the property in an "open and notorious" fashion without the owner's permission. Usually the occupier perfects the title by paying the property taxes for several years without protest from the legal owner.
The trans-continental railroads, which were given huge tracts of empty land to induce them to build the railroads, were exempted from losing that land to adverse possession. Because Long Island land titles were pretty well settled before any railroad was built there, it is probable (although I have not researched the matter) that easements were used for ROW.
>>> I saw traces of that line last February, near Century City <<<
The part you saw had its own ROW beside the road. In West L.A. it ran down a wide median in the middle of Santa Monica Boulevard, farther east, it was on the street itself with the yellow centerline between the tracks.
Tom
So I pose this question. If I went to the unused Rockaway ROW and took some rails, third rail and cover, plus an electrical tower with me am I stealing?
Yup, as I would be for pilfering an old light fixture from the abandoned Metropolitan Ave. J station in 1987.
Nobody better rat me out.
How did you get up there ?
One stairwell at Metro was kept intact, although it was locked. This lock was usually vandalized, so enterance was not a problem. The old mezzanine was a haven for drug dealers and prostitutes at this time. I believe there was vast community pressure to remove the entire structure, which wasn't accomplished until early 1991. I actually walked from Metropolitan Ave. to the stub end at Supthin Blvd. along the catwalk of the Manhattan bound track. Even though this part of the line was severed from the main line where the turnoff to Archer Ave. is at, both the 3rd rail and signal system was functioning. All the signals were red.
The same question could be asked about the Polo Grounds Shuttle remmants.
Who owns it? The City? MTA? Does anyone inspect the tunnel to determine if there has been any physical deterioration? (The 2nd Ave tunnel remnants are inspected every 2 weeks). What if there is a tunnel collapse - who is responsible for the damage, especially to the dwellings that might be above such a collapse? A large group of SubTalkers took three trips there in 1999 and 2000; were we trespassing? On who's "property"?
--Mark
You are talking about "adverse possession", a legal term that to laymen like ourselves means that "if you use it long enough and the legal owner offers no objection or intervention, it eventually becomes yours".
As a lifetime New Yorker who lived through the horrors of the Robert Moses era and as an avid reader and frequent re-reader of "The Power Broker" by Robert Caro, my thesis is that a "person" (remember, corporations are "persons") who once was or still is a Moses era conspirator who then sat on property and easement rights in order to demand a King's ransom from the taxpayers (all of Moses' cronies knew well in advance where the roads were going and purchased the properties that would have to be condemned, making great profits on the difference), there just might be a "person", partnership or consortium sitting on the rights to use this right-of-way or some essential easements until there is an absolute Eminent Domain demand for their use. Historically, this invloves very politically connected families working under discrete corporate relationships. True, the Rockaway right-of-way has been unused for a long time, but Henry Flagler and his interests purchased a lot of useless swamp along his new railroad a long time ago too. Alligators were his citizens. That's now called "Florida" as we northerners know it. The barrier to the use of the old Long Island Railroad easement might well be placed at the highest levels of our political and social leaders. Don't lose any sleep over this, but do know that it happened with almost every major highway in and anywhere near the Big Apple.
Personally, I feel if anyone who lives near the ROW is concerned with train noise, they can move. The ROW was there when they bought their house, so they can't whine about it now. Active trains might remove the other hazards of this old ROW, including rats, homeless people, rampaging teenagers, drug dealers and endless amounts of garbage.
Agreed, but if you do not get the elected officials to earn their keep, they will do nothing about the problem.
That's an illegal park on the RoW (No dept of Parks signs), and a parking lot. They could be gone in 30 days.
Could a few of you please rank these lines from best to worst with best being the most interesting to railfan?
7 (whole line)
A (to 207th)
1 (to 242nd)
D (to 205th)
In addition, which way is it best to take the #7 express? Inbound or outbound? And how far is the Woodside LIRR station from the Woodside #7 station?
Thanks, in advance.
The A and D are all underground and thus suck.
The 7 is great, and the 1 is OK. You should definitely do both.
As for the two Woodsides, they are one above the other.
And if you can take the J Line, great EL line,The 7 is good also.The 2 line is good also-great in the Bronx slow and tedious in Brooklyn.Take the 4 uptown dramatic view coming out of the tunnel of Yankee Stadium,D line going across Manhattan Bridge, lousy railfan window.The 3 line to Newlots Avenue good quick EL run, split tracks like the J Line,if you luck out try to catch the A line with a railfan window to the Rockaways, very very long trip from 207th Street.The rebuilt Franklin Avenue subway is very good one track so you can take the same train back. For the R-142a's. You can go over to Pelham to catch one, best times is doing the week during rush hours thats when you can catch them best.Or you can see the R-142A's and R-142's at Unionport Yard or go to Warburton Avenue in Yonkers, sneak into the Parking lot and you can see the R-142A's ready for deliveries parked on the tracks soon you might see the R-143'sthere also.
Since when is the J great?
I did it from Suphtin Blvd. to ENY and it was so SLOW!
One of my favorites is the Dyre Ave. (5) line. Make sure to ride a redbird. Redbirds on the 7 will be there for at leat another year and a half.
The #1 sucks. I tried this on Friday: three trains with no window whatsoever.
If the rolling stock changes, the #1 is interesting
John.
OK. Once and for all. CAN YOU RIDE THE 6 AROUND THE CITY HALL LOOP OR NOT! In the Daily News today, they did and article about City Hall Station. They said all New Yorkers should ride by it. Now, there are some motormen who get pretty miffed if you try to stay on. If you CAN ride around the loop, what do you tell a motorman who wants you off? Can I get a copy of some official document to show them?
I believe it is now non-revenue trackage so no, you can't ride around. This brings us back to the issue of the bedchecks at loops and relays. In all honesty, bedchecks should only be done on trains deadheading to the yard. If a train is going to enter revenue service within a few minutes, there is no reason to make the ignorant straphanger who didn't realize the train was out of service leave.
Now, the City Hall loop is an exception. Due to its proximity to City Hall, I can understand the security threats associated with a terrorist riding an out of service 6 train but even so, the odds are pretty unlikely as long as the MTA doesn't publicize the semi-revenue service around the loop.
How would a terrorist be able to bring enough firepower into the train to blast through it, let alone the tunnel.
Maybe when a terrorist government gets the bomb it give a backpack sized unit to somebody, but would that even work?
If a terrorist government gets the bomb, they wouldn't bomb City Hall. It's insignificant in the international scheme of things.
Everyone talks about City Hall. Does anyone realize the 7 train passes practically right under the UN on its way to Queens. Granted, it is VERY deep. But if we're talking about nukes, is it so unconceivable that a terrorist could carry a bomb big enough to do some damage? He would have to estimate when the train was under the right street, and would need a VERY powerful device, but if we're going to be paranoid about City Hall, lets be PARANOID.
NYC needs to lighten up. City Hall was NY's first subway station, and all should be able to enjoy it. Maybe when the reincarnation of Hitler leaves City Hall this November, they'll let train buffs in.
hah you people dont knnow how easy it is to rode the loop on the 6
"hah you people dont knnow how easy it is to rode the loop on the 6"
Oh I think we do, SeveN! I have ridden the city hall loop twice that way...u just have to be there when the station people are cool about it. -Nick
not even, just stay on the train, or go to the last car and while the people from last car are getting off you run in so the C/R dont see you on camera, boy I rode that shit like mad times, a C/R told me how to ride it, thank you kind Conductor.
I always thought Rudy I live in a bunker Guiliani had a vastly overinflated sense of importance.
I cant wait until his successor turns City Hall into the piece of the Transit Museum that it always should have been!
John.
But if we're talking about nukes, is it so unconceivable that a terrorist could carry a bomb big enough to do some damage?
Once you start talking about nukes, you move into a whole different realm. When you talk nukes, closing the City Hall loop wouldn't help. Brooklyn Bridge station would be close enough - even for a small one.
If you're talking a small grade portable nuclear device, closing the City Hall loop wouldn't help the Union Square station. :-)
I'm NO fan of Rude Rudy but comparing him to Hitler serves only to discredit your position.
just because he saved this city from Hell is no reason to call him hitler, dont matter, once he is gone, Im sure there will be less Transit Cops.
Hey--you may not like Giuliani's attitude but don't go calling him a Nazi. I'm an admitted leftist and I still like what he's done with the city, for the most part. Ten years ago railfanning would have been a total impossibility due to 1) Crime and 2) My mother worried about 1.
Dan
This sounds a little like the business about witholding information about whether or not a series of subway cars will recieve a midlife rebuild (GOH) due to terrorisim possibilities. Again, simplicity prevails - anybody wanting to blow up a subway car will just stroll into the subway car and leave a briefcase or a bag with a bomb in it and stroll off again and anybody wanting to blow up the City Hall would just leave a briefcase or a car containing a bomb by City Hall and blow it up that way.
Lastly, if anybody was intent on blasting the City Hall subway station it would be suicide to ride through the loop on the train with the bomb - the bomb would just be left on the train by a departing passenger at the last revenue service station and timed to go off in the loop. In this case, there wouldn't be any passengers on the train at all breaking the no passengers rule, yet the bomb would still go off anyways and wouldn't be prevented by this rule.
Most of these 'security concerns' out there seem to be half baked overdone excuses for being silly when you consider them from a strictly logical, tactical, utilitarian perspective.
Now we'll return to our regularly scheduled paranoia...
-Robert King
You're not allowed to, but here's an idea: Every time I always see some confused people remain on the train. Simply sit there and ignore the last stop announcement. Don't hide or anything. If the train will be going OOS into the little yard there or for any other reason they will check, so don't worry about being trapped. If anyone says "Get out last stop" (unlikely) act like you didn't know and get off, go back to Canal, try again. Every time I try this I get through on the first try for both City Hall and South Ferry. Have a walkman on, they'll really believe you didn't hear the announcement.
Darn, I should have thought of that!
I don't usually take the 6, but did a few weeks ago to Brooklyn Bridge - on an R142 yet. I was really tempted to stay on it, but chickened out.
Sure enough, not two minutes after the train left, back it was, on the uptown platform. (I knew it was the same train, based on the car numbers.) Could have seen the oldest station in the newest set of cars, but oh well.
Actually, the walkman might not have worked as an excuse; either the conductor or T/O flashed the lights several times before closing the doors.
>>> either the conductor or T/O flashed the lights several times before closing the doors <<<
That doesn't matter, New Yorkers rarely react to such subtle hints.
Tom
yea they do that to scare off people, just stay on and enjoy the ride
You law breaking punk, graffiti artist mahem driven sucka...
DHO!
HAHAHA I hear that man, and you know you love it
yeah baby,when I come back we gotta run the loop. If anbody says we can't, we'll just show them our badges, from NYPD Blue and say Sipowicz told us we had to be here. If they don't like it, they can take it up with Tony Soprano or speak to D.A. Jack Mcoy.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, what would we do without Television...
Sometime last week they flashed the lights after they closed the doors... Indeed a guy with a walkman on finally noticed but it was too late to get out... or... was it someone pretending to be trapped?
>>>OK. Once and for all. CAN YOU RIDE THE 6 AROUND THE CITY HALL LOOP OR NOT! In the Daily
News today, they did and article about City Hall Station. They said all New Yorkers should ride by it.
Now, there are some motormen who get pretty miffed if you try to stay on. If you CAN ride around the
loop, what do you tell a motorman who wants you off? Can I get a copy of some official document to
show them? <<<<
I wouldn't try to enter any non-revenue areas. There are some exceptions, but I think MTA personnel take a dim view of railfans...I think they use the word 'foamers' to describe subway/rail enthusiasts. That just seems to be the way it is.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Okay, I checked the bulletin board today while at work and low and behold a bulletin dated April 30, 2001 states you can ride around the City Hall loop. That is the only relay position in the system that passengers are allowed in.
Crews don't like people riding through the area because of people robbing and assaulting mostly C/R's plus the fact that if the train breaks down you have to escort the passengers back to the station which means removal of power from the 3rd rail.
Crews don't like people riding through the area because of people robbing and assaulting mostly C/R's plus the fact that if the train breaks down you have to escort the passengers back to the station which means removal of power from the 3rd rail.
Umm, how does this differ from anywhere else, when there are few passengers in the train?
I dont want to sound unsympathetic, and I absolutely dont want to see a CR (or anyone else for that matter) assaulted or robbed.
I fail to see why the TA (and employees) doesnt treat loops/shunts where the train is out of service for seconds or minutes just like revenue trackage.
Heres hoping that the same logic can be applied to the Lex short turns at Bowling Green/South Ferry.
John.
From my understanding most criminals don't want witnesses. Would you rob a store with people in it or one with just the counter person, how about mugging a single person walking down the street or a group of people?
I think I answered your question about loops and shunts/relays in my original post. Here are a couple of examples why these tracks are "off limits"
Sit on a 5 train in B loop and a 4 train goes BIE or has a sick passenger at Bowling Green. I am sure you would love to be sitting there for half an hour give or take ten minutes
The City Hall loop is different because crews can key people off to the platform of the City Hall station and show the the way up to the street.
Granted that this could happen.
However, how does this differ from the splendid 3/4 hour I spent once (around 1985) in the 60th St Tunnel in an R from Astoria? I dont know what happened, but things were moving through the tunnel in those days very slowly when they moved at all.
Stuck in a train can happen anywhere. At the South Ferry loop, I presume that there is still an exit from the unused platform.
John.
Could a few of you please rank these lines from best to worst with best being the most interesting to railfan?
7 (whole line)
A (to 207th)
1 (to 242nd)
D (to 205th)
Also,which way is it best to take the #7 express? Inbound or outbound? How far is the Woodside LIRR station from the Woodside #7 station?
Will I still be able to catch redbirds on the #7 in September?
Thanks, in advance.
Best way to take the 7 express would have to be inbound, though that may be because I so rarely get to do so.
The Woodside LIRR station's mezzanine is the same as the 7s mezzanine, go up to get to the 7 or down to get to the LIRR. The ticket office and token booth are somewhat close (I wonder why they didn't combine them?).
Redbird's on the 7 in September? Definitely!
I rank:
1 to 242
7 (whole line)
Central Park West (both D and A)
D to 205 (express)
A to 207
D to 205 (local)
The 1 goes outside for 125st then back under, 168st looks like something out of a history book + elevator-only exit/transfer, 181st is a modernized version of 168, 191 is deepest station in system followed by Dyckman which is elevated, then 207st overhaul shops to the right, cross the Broadway drawbridge (trains on top, cars on bottom), over the MNRR Hudson line (station one block away) at Marble Hill, yard to the left just before reaching 242.
Of note on the 7 is that the line emerges at Hunterspoint adjacent to the Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR line (view of Hunterspoint ave station), cross-platform transfer with the N at Queensboro plaza (plus the track crossover), crossing Sunnyside yards, concrete viaduct, crossing the LIRR again at Woodside, on the express flyover great view of Shea Stadium (left) and Corona yard and LIRR(right), cross some water after Shea Stadium and duck back into water. Main st station one block from LIRR's Main st.
Central Pk west is great, longest express run with exception to the Sea Beach. Bilevel with each level containing one platform, one local track, and one express track until 103st. There, northbound expresses do something weird and one can see both levels at once. Miraculously turns into a normal express-local arrangement until 125st. Then, line becomes 6 track for 135 and then B and D go down to a 3 track lower level while A and C go up for a 4 track upper level.
The D to 205 is kinda boring except it is a nice long express run (which goes great with CPW), plus the only long 3 track segment of the IND. Several stations undergoing rehab. Reccommend taking Bx12 at Fordham to the A at 207 to avoid ending up on a long boring local run back.
A to 207. Good only in that it has bi-directional express service, plus at Dyckman st gains a couple of extra tracks. Express tracks after 145 are hidden from the local. At 168 you have express tracks on the outside and local on the inside, plus the transfer to the 1/9 which you may want to use after doing the 1/9 to get a fast ride back to midtown.
My advice is, if you're doing a one-time railfaning in Sept., do as much as possible. Here are my pics.
Q to Coney Island, whole line.
A to Far Rockaway, whole line.
7 Express, whole line, either direction
4,5 Lexington Avenue Express, 125th Street to Bowling Green.
J to Jamaica Center, whole line.
There will most likely still be redbirds on the 7 in Sept. The two Woodside stations are within walking distance of each other. Keep in mind that some LIRR trains do not stop at Woodside. The 7 express is great both ways. Take it to Times Sq. from Fushing around 11:30AM, then take it back. This way, you get express in both directions!
Have Fun! If you need a guide, I'd be happy to ride with you. I've always wanted to be a tour guide. I'm dead serious.
Tony :)
Rate the best subway line. My Site
The J is not that great. I've done it from Suphtin to ENY.
I agree, the only part I enjoy is ENY to Marcy if running full express (break 45 MPH on an el!), and the Williamsburg bridge. If one is lucky enough to wrong-rail over the bridge the train actually cruises along at a decent speed (35) because there are no signals (therefore no timers). Don't have too much fun, an assload of WDs set to 20 awaits on the wrong-railing downgrade so no one confuses the J with a roller coaster.
If you can, combine that Lex run with a rush-hour express on the #5 in the Bronx. Even better, see if you can get a 5 Bronx Thru Express to Dyre Ave. at Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn. That'll give you a fairly speedy express run in THREE boroughs, two underwater tunnels, curves on the lower part of the Lex mainline, the long Upper East Side express tunnel, complex trackage around 125 St., the S-curve between 135 and 149 Sts., long elevated express trip in the Bronx, the yards and flyover at East 180 St., and finally the nice run up to Dyre Ave. You'll be passing through the first subway stations to be built in Brooklyn and the Bronx, and the southern portion of the original 1904 IRT subway (Brooklyn Bridge to a point south of 42 St.). Be sure to look for the abandoned 18 St. station just north of 14 St.-Union Square (not to mention that evil curve).
Wanna talk about curves? One of the most brutal el curves is a Simpson Street on the 2,5.
Which our prospective railfanner will also encounter if he takes my advice. As well as the bend at West Farms/East Tremont.
Is it more brutal than the curve at York-Dauphin on The Market-Frankford el? Because the trains have to go extra SLOW if they don't want not only a derailment, but to jump off the el itself.
How can we forget Crescent Street/Fulton on the J. And that curve used to be even sharper.
And the S curve on the Montague Street tunnel route? That was the one which required doors on the Standards to always be locked.
Paul, Someone else said something about that before.
Has the Fulton-Crescent curve been modified from what it used to be in the old days?
Has the Fulton-Crescent curve been modified from what it used to be in the old days?
Yes, it's been altered within my memory. I guess in the '60s. It was even sharper. If you look at the superstructure and current location of the tracks, you can make it out.
FWIW, trains always took this curve slowly, but not quite as slowly as now.
I am really curious about this one. I left in 1957, but my family was there till 1979. The family home, while out of sight of, was only about 200 feet from the turn. They never mentioned any rebuilding of the turn to me.
If you should ever come across any details of the change, and when it took place please keep me in mind. I do know that the station itelf was supposedly rebuilt in 1980 or 1981.
It's been a long time since I rode this curve eastbound--at least while looking out the front. IIRC, the eastbound track now comes in on the inside of the girder stringers where it used to follow it more closely. I think the work took place about the time they loused up the station houses of the old BERR portion.
It didn't involve any major steel work or massive realignment.
I am really curious about this one. I left in 1957, but my family was there till 1979. The family home, while out of sight of, was only about 200 feet from the turn. They never mentioned any rebuilding of the turn to me.
If you should ever come across any details of the change, and when it took place please keep me in mind. I do know that the station itself was supposedly rebuilt in 1980 or 1981.
The girders from the sharper curve ceased to be in use from around 1917 with dual-contact retrofit. You may have 1960 on your mind because of the incline trackway approaching Alabama Avenue. They got that far trying to build a 3rd Ave EL style express track when TA engineers determined the structure couldn't take it.
There's a pair of R-40s, possibly 4183-4182 (or something like that), which are sporting diamond yellow Qs. I knew all along it was a pretty stupid notion to believe the MTA would exclude a certain car class from a line because of such trivial matters as a rollsign.
Although, since all the signs (end and side) were showing the new designation, it leads me to believe that they are putting stickers over the old (Q)s.
It is a stupid notion and I agree with you on that but keep in mind this is the MTA we are talking about.
MTA DOES NOT STAND FOR RHYME OR REASON. IT NEVER HAS AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL
Thank goodness those terrible Hippos will stay off the Q express. After all, it has to be an express. I could run faster than a Hippo.
OK. Let's see you do it. Go ahead. Outrun an R68. Maybe you can race a (D) paralel to the Brighton Line or something. Go ahead.
:-) Andrew
When I was living in Africa I saw some hippos trotting down my street, and I saw some run pretty fast. I wouldn't want to try to outrun them.
Damn! You'd think they'd have leash laws. :)
Even a real hippo could outrun an R-68, R-68A if it wanted to because they're so slow. After those cars are big lumbering beasts with terrible brakes.
BMTJeff
Hippos are fast creatures.
I really enjoy myself when I realize that. It shows that the anti-R-68 crowd isn't all that smart by associating a fast animal with a train they call slow.
Maybe they should call the R-68s the tortises. Tortises are slow creatures. So are sloths. The sloths might be a more appropriate name for the R-68s.
Although the R-68s might be slow, at least they get you there.
BMTJeff
People unfairly group 68as with 68s
The R68A car class is not slow
Enough!
The Hippos might be kinda slow. But, this is the subway. Not Metro-North, not the LIRR and not NJ transit. If you are lucky, an IRT train will get up to 55, a BMT/IND train maybe 50. Can a 'hippo' hit 40? You bet. Do the R-40's/M's have uncomfortable seats? You bet.
Whose got the best MDBF rate in the B div? R-68's
What cars don't move on weekends? R-40's. (except those in the east)
I'd rather have a reliable car than one more likely to break down. And, to be honest, it doesn't matter if the R-68s or the R-40s are holding down the brighton express.
I saw some up close in Coney Island Yard. They are pasted on, including in the front, which means that you won't be able to shine light through it. Also I found out that the reason the yellow diamond Q's are being displayed now (before the service change) is so that it may be seen which signs have been done.
Fri. I saw a can in front of the shop near track 32 filled with R-68 side signs. They were the old ones but looked as good as new. So any insiders who want to collect these signs better hurry on over.
They have a can of R68 roll signs sitting outside CI yard??? Where and are they still there?
They were between track 34 and 36 (where 35 would be), at the SW corner of the shop (36 is he first track of the shop, while 34 continues outside to the wheel truer) by the driveway that passes the entrance gates to the shop. I saw this Fri. I don't know if it was emptied since then.
Well, they got me. I saw them today and thought they were new rollsigns.
[Although, since all the signs (end and side) were showing the new designation, it leads me to believe that they are putting stickers over the old (Q)s.]
No, no, no! They are not pasting over the 6th Avenue Q signs. What they're doing is pasting the Broadway Q-diamond over the Broadway D sign, which is right next to Broadway Q-circle, and not far from 6th Avenue Q. Read message #216553, and read the post and the responses to it (especially the one by Billy P).
I saw 1 consist of R40s today on the Q Line. No side destination signs were turned over. But atleast 1/2 of the end route signs had a yellow diamond Q on it in black letters. The Q was the circle with a straight line not one of those curved lines. They aren't paste ons. I was able to look closely. It was nice and smooth like a normal rollsign.
As many Subtalkers probably know, I thorougly detest the LIRR's Ronkonoma station, jammed as it is by big shots who live nearer the Port Jefferson or Montauk lines but who are too lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses five feet across the platform at Jamaica and therefore demand a single-seat ride. Obnoxious schmucks. Well, I won't have Ronkonkoma to kick around anymore, thank God.
A little background. I live in Medford, about a mile and a half from the station of the same name. Riding from Medford station requires going through Ronkonkoma. I used to go from Patchogue, about seven miles away - Patchogue trains are a million times nicer than Ronkonkoma's - but haven't been able to do it much lately due to car problems. My 1995 Dodge Neon is in pretty sorry shape and doesn't have an inspection certificate due to needed repairs. Parking an un-inspected car at Patchogue bascially guarantees a $25 ticket, while no one cares at Medford. I also have a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo, but my wife needs that more-reliable vehicle as she works 3-11 and comes home late at night.
Well, yesterday my wife leased a car (2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse) and the Rodeo's mine full-time. The Neon's been put out to pasture for the time being. What does this mean? It's Patchogue for me from now on! Adios Ronkonkoma, burn in Hell!
"Adios Ronkonkoma, burn in Hell!"
It would still have to be a kinder, gentler hell than where the NIMBYs go, right?
Hmmmm ... maybe NIMBY's should be sentenced to ride Ronkonkoma trains for all eternity, that'd serve them right!
OOOOOOOKKKKKKKAAAAAAAYYYYYYY... LOL! I thought I was the amusing one around here! I don't care for "suit wearers" either. I especially don't like them when they read the big *ss *#$%ing wall street Journal on a crowded subway car. All copies of that paper should be set on fire.
For that matter, let's set the suits on fire, too. ;) Just kidding. I live too close to the Bronx Psychiatric Center to make such remarks.
This year, Philly will celebrate The 100th anniversary of the opening of City Hall (the building, not the subway station), although it is undergoing a facelift right now, the tower will be open to the public. Also, The Ben Franklin Bridge will be celebrate it's 75th anniversary. The bridge will be closed to traffic on July 4th for people to cross the bridge by foot on the roadway. Although the DRPA is encouraging everybody to wear period clothing, it is not necessary. If you do, don't forget your Tommy gun and hide the booze from Eliot Ness. Don't worry, PATCO will still be running. It should be fun.
The Philly City Hall tour is pretty neat.
It has been reported here that when the R-38,40,42 fleet comes up for scrapping, the 10 GE R-32 rebuilds will go too. Something about non functioning A/C and an impossibility of obtaining replacement parts because the A/C package is not made anymore.
Well, since these 10 cars are much like their M & K rebuilds as far as condition is concerned, could it be possible to remove the functioning A/C from the R-38s when they are up for scrapping and install them in the 10 GE R-32s ?
TRAIN DUDE......help me on this one !
Bill "Newkirk"
TRAIN DUDE......help me on this one !
I'll try!
All R-32s began their lives without AC. When they were overhauled, the entire interior was removed, and at that time, the piping for the AC units was installed. Phase I cars used Thermoking AC while Phase II cars used Stone Safety AC. During overhaul, the copper pipe for the AC was run accordingly. Both systems are similar but not interchangable as far as I know. The ten R-32s rebuilt by GE were outfitted with Sigma AC equipment. Besides the fact that the parts are no longer available, the piping and wiring is not compatible. Hence, while the TA has spare thermoking and stone safety units available, the relocation of the piping would virtually require that the cars be completely disassembled again. The question now is, "do we make this costly investment?" According to the General Supt. of Pitkin/207th St shops, it seems that the TA is leaning that way.
Renovating 10 cars (one train's worth): Well, if they do it, then certainly having the cars equipped similarly to the rest of the fleet will help make future maintenance easier.
The original cars involved cost $115,000 each (1963 dollars). When overhauled by Buffalo Transit, the cost was $576,000 per car (MK overhaul was $476,000 each). I would estimate that whether it be done by a vendor, or in-house, we are looking at $200,000 - $300,000 per car to install new HVAC equipment.
Wow! 115,000 dollars in 1963 -----> $1.4 million today. Let's see, that's basically an inflation factor of 1,000% divided over 38 years. 1.4 million = 115,000*(1+n) (38th power).
My brain is tired today (and I misplaced my calculator) - somebody else solve for n.
> 115,000 dollars in 1963 -----> $1.4 million today.
6.8% yearly inflation. (By comparison, the increase in the consumer price index has averaged 4.8% over the same time, but the price of bread probably isn't a good measure of the price of a subway car!)
Thank you, kind sir.
Why did GE to these cars ?
I think they were prototypes for the R-38 rebuild.
subfan
They were prototypes for the R-32 rebuild, not the R-38 rebuild. The R-32s had structural problems around the doors, and NYCT was uncertain as to whether the cars could be rebuilt.
David
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
I know BRT Ran All Q Cars on The Myrtle Avenue El line Till Removal In 1969 :( . Did They Run Q Cars & Standards From Broadway To Metropolitan Avenue?
By 1969 it was R-16s not standards.
And it had been called the BMT after 1923, the city after 1940 and the TA after 1953.
There were likely R16's on the present M before 1969 on occasion..I'd swear in the 50's I'd see one once in a while with the 10 signs on the end. I'm almost sure they were all out of the Eastern by 1969 but could be wrong.
The first replacements for the old standards were the R7/9 that were bumped from the IND as new cars were coming in. I can recall them and the standards on the line when the Q's were still running.
Believe the R9 types were later replaced by R27 along with a mix of R42 as R42 were placed some on every line. Not to mention whatever other types came and went over the years.
But I'm almost positive there were no or rare R16's there around 1969, believe they found their way to Queens and the EE and GG, as I said the R7/9 and later some R6 mixed in replaced the standards.
Karl B has the skinny on the wood equipment.
The R16's were completely off the Eastern Division (except for 3 of the 5 RJ trainsets) within 4 weeks of Chrystie, until 1976. Once in a while they ran on a QJ, maybe even in a mixed consist with R27's, but that was it. Before Chrystie, the R16 covered #15, some 14's, and once in a blue moon, a #10 or #16. The R7/9 took a year to wipe out the Standards, starting in Spring 68. The Standards were still running when the KK started in 1969, but never ran on it.
Joe V,
Have it on excellent authority that BMT Standards DID very rarely run on the KK! I for one never saw them, but my friend tells me that very rarely when an R9 KK set had problems or was short of equipment, an AB set would be pulled from the Canarsie line and put into KK service.
Also, he tells me that the same problem would ocasionally arise on the QJ, and that ABs would find their way onto that line, where they would be seen going down the Brighton local to Coney Island.
Wish I could have been so lucky to catch that one!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
A photo of a BMT Standard running in-service in 1968 at West Fourth, 47th-50th or any of the other stations on the Sixth Ave. IND would be the utlimate of rare subway pictures.
Like I said; I personally did not ever see either the ABs on the KK or the QJ, but I have no reason to doubt my friend. Besides having started the Museum and knowing all those cars by heart, he has a photographic memory second to none.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Here's another question: did the standards ever run along the Queens IND local after the 11th st cut was opened in 1955? What about the triplex?
Sure they did. I saw one in 1958 when I visited relatives in Elmhurst (it was a Brighton local, although most of the BMT trains on Queens Blvd. were 4th Ave. locals. Brighton trains ran there for a while).
Sorry, I saw a train of Standards, not Triplexes.
Hot Lunch, how have you been?
Did you change your Email addy?? I tried mailing you a few times and it didn't go through.
I wouldn't doubt for a minute that you're right...I can't remember ever catching a standard on the KK or QJ myself. But it could have happened. Between yourself and Joe V I was glad to get my memory refreshed on a few things.
Right on the R16's, they were put on the LL to replace the R1-9 starting sometime in l976; think by then the KK had been abolished and I never did see an R16 on the J or the M. But then I left in July 1977 and know they served on the J later.
Almost forgot the KK didn't start with Chrystie as was brought up; right; with the merger and Chrystie so the reminder is appreciated. The former 15 was QJ all times and the former 14 was still running, became the JJ, at least as of November 67.
By 1969 it was R-16s not standards.
And it had been called the BMT after 1923, the city after 1940 and the TA after 1953.
Actually,the R16's were mostly removed from the eastern division around 1969 and replaced with R7/R9 cars. Some R16's did operate on the #10/M/Myrtle-Chambers St. line before then, but it was mostly standards.
The Q cars did not run from Metropolitan to Bridge-Jay until about 1958. Before then it was the open platform gate cars, in the 1300 series. Before 1950 it was the 600, 900 & 1200 series gate cars!
Didn't the Q cars operate on the Third Ave el after the joint IRT/BMT service in Queens ended in 1949?
Nope. The Q cars were too wide for that. The IRT had Low-V's for the third ave line, and used them up until the last days.
Wasn't the Q car 9', made specifically to IRT dimensions for service on the Astoria/Flushing line before 1949? If so, it should've been compatible with the entire third ave. el.
>>> Wasn't the Q car 9', made specifically to IRT dimensions for service on the Astoria/Flushing line before 1949? <<<
Yes, the "Q" stands for Queens. There was certainly no reason these cars could not be used on the 3rd Ave. El, and I know I have read that they were used there after 1949.
Tom
You're right, Chris! The Q's went to the Third Ave El starting in 1949. The IRT did replace the trucks with trucks off the old composites though. The original trucks, probably Peckham, were much heavier than the composite trucks!
I think they were still restricted to the express track, or the local if empty when deadheading.
Items by Joe V and Karl B being true I'll toss a bit more in myself.
The Q's were remodelled from BU gate cars in 1938 for the World"s Fair, BMT el cars were indeed 9 foot; the BRT/BMT didn't have big cars until the standards in 1914. So they weren't specially built for Queens, they were updated. The same cars in gate form ran in BMT service in Queens so became the Q's for a better World's Fair image.[Most were 1907 built 1400's and some were 1903 built 1200's]
If you look at original Q photos you'll see the markers were outboard as on most BMT el cars. Hallelujah they were moved inboard when transferred to 3rd Ave as they wouldn't clear the station shed overhang; they looked their best either then or on the first couple years on Myrtle; when their rooves were lowered it ruined their looks.
On the YUK side, yes the composite trucks were a necessity for weight reduction and the cars were still restricted on the Manhattan portion of the line: Local track running light only, express track only with passengers except in emergencies...same restrictions applied to Composites. They'd have been OK with all motors and the composite trucks but with the trailers (B car in the center) they were underpowered. When they moved them to Myrtle in 1958 with that low BMT voltage they were real poor; never ran fast again except downhill.Too bad they didn't take the trucks from the 1300 BU's that were replaced and put them back on..they were what they had originally but then they had to rewire motor feeds ...The original BU/Q setup had both motors on one truck, the Composite trucks had one motor on each.
After removal from Queens in 1949 they were phased into service on 3rd Ave. thru 1950 and remained there until late l956 when the Steel Steinways were transferred there to replace them and the last Manhattan el MUDC's. In April 58 they were put in service on Myrtle.
Do you really think the marker lights looked better inboard rather than outboard?
We sure disagree on that point, although it is a matter of personal taste. I think moving the lights inboard spoiled their appearance.
Of course they looked better the IRT WAY!!!! Best wishes. IRT man
You are used to seeing them inboard from the IRT. I am used to them being outboard from the BMT.
I'll win you over yet!
I might be wrong but I don't think Low-V's were ever used on the Manhattan part of the Third Av El, just on the Bronx part after the Manhattan part was torn down.
Right you are. And with a rare exception they weren't conventional Low-V's, they were the lighter Steinway cars; lighter as their motors were smaller, but they looked identical to Low-V's.
Not too identical though. Didn't the Steinways have front destination signs??
Those were the Worlds Fair cars with the front signage ... they often ran as lead and tail cars on the third avenue el with Steinways inside the consists ...
Yes indeed, they did ... here's a picture of a fan trip at 161 St and 3rd though the Q's did operate on the 3rd Avenue el for a while:
The Q cars ran on the Myrtle Ave. El from 1958 to the el's last day in 1969. They were modified for use on Myrtle Ave. by adding extension plates under each door to fill the gap at the stations east of Broadway, which had to be able to also handle 10' wide subway cars. The subway cars which initally ran on this section with the Q cars were BMT multisection cars (until 1961). The Multis were transferred from the 14th St. line to the Myrtle-Chambers line after the Fulton St. El closed (outer portion became part of the IND Fulton St. Line) in 1956. I believe the main reason for putting the Multis on the Myrtle-Chambers run was that, due to deferred maintenance, they were becoming somewhat less reliabale, and the Myrtle-Chambers line was a rush hour only operation, limiting the need for the cars to one or two round trips in each rush hour with lots of time to patch them up in betwwen. The Multis were finally retired in 1961, replaced by Standards freed up by the arrival of R27s on the BMT Southern Division.
-- Ed Sachs
Last night, I made the mistake of eating a pizza with mushrooms, pepperoni, sausage, and anchovies after midnight, and it resulted in a horrible nightmare about the New York subways. As you may know, I left New York in June, 1948, but I have been planning to return this summer, and I was thinking about my upcoming trip when I fell asleep.
My dream started with me near the UN building on a hot August day. I was walking westward, looking forward to getting out of the sun in the shade of the 3rd Avenue El. When I got to the street with a sign saying "3rd Avenue" the El was missing. The street did not look anything like I remembered it (kind of like the Yuppies had invaded and taken over). Then I remembered that there had been talk of tearing down the El once a 2nd Avenue subway was built, so I asked a passerby where the nearest entrance to the 2nd Ave. subway was. He looked at me like I was crazy. I asked someone else and he said "In your dreams, buddy!" I never did find the entrance to the 2nd Avenue subway.
I walked a little further west on 42nd Street and came to the entrance to the IRT Queens line. I went in there but had trouble at the turnstile finding the place to insert my coin. Fortunately a good Samaritan was nearby and offered to let me through the turnstile if I would pay him the fare. That sounded ok to me so he somehow passed his hand over the turnstile and the bar gave way so I could get through. I thanked him and tossed him a nickel as I went through. Apparently the poor man suffered from Tourette's Syndrome, because he started curing a blue streak, and called me all kinds of names and did not stop until a policeman approached, at which time he quieted down and walked the other way.
When I got down to the station platform it looked familiar, but there were glaring bright white lights down the length of the platform, and since I was thirsty, I looked for a soda machine, but could not find one. I couldn't even find a chewing gum machine. I began to think I was in some kind of altered universe. I looked down the track to see the signal lights on the front of an approaching train to find out if it was going to Astoria (2 red) or Flushing (2 green, local; 1 red 1green, express), but the lights were missing. Instead I was almost blinded by bright lights on the front of the train. I did notice that some superstitious person had put a lighted lucky number "7" on the front of the train.
As this train pulled into the station, I saw that there was no motorman. I looked at the place where he should have been, but instead of a ruddy faced Irishman with a striped cap and overalls over a checked shirt, wearing heavy engineer gloves, there was a young Latino businessman wearing a coat and tie sitting there in a great raifan seat. Since there were no signal lights on the front of the train, I wanted to ask the conductor where the train was going, but there was no conductor either. I looked between each of the cars to find him, but he just wasn't there. I did see one young woman passenger poke her head out of a window and look up and down the platform for a friend she was expecting (she did not find him).
Just looking at the train made me realize that this could not be a real New York subway train. First of all it was painted red, instead of the dull green-brown that blended with the accumulated grime so well. This was not the red of the LIRR either, but bright red, like a fire engine. Although a California border town might paint its rolling stock like that, surely the Big Apple would remain more conservative. Also, even though it was the middle of August, none of the windows were open (except the one the woman passenger leaned out of) and most of the windows did not look like they could be opened. When the train pulled to a stop with doors right in front of me and the doors opened, a puff of cool air came out. Now I knew I was in some kind of fantasy.
I got pushed into the car by the people on the platform behind me, and noticed once we started moving, that besides being cool inside, it was so quiet that I could make out individual words that were being spoken by other passengers within four feet of where I was standing. Obviously this could not be a real New York subway. Apparently this train ran on diesel fuel, and was not particularly efficient. As we passed through the Steinway tubes, the smell of unburned diesel oil was strong.
When we broke ground in Queens, everything seemed normal until we rounded the curve and pulled into Queensboro Plaza. HALF THE STATION WAS MISSING!!! At that point I could not take it any longer and woke up screaming. I shook for a minute or two until I realized that it had just been a nightmare with no basis in reality. I promptly swore off late night pizzas (at least hold the anchovies) and I am still looking forward to my trip this summer. :-)
Tom
Old Tom, Enjoyed reading about your "nightmare"!
Did You really leave in 1948? I left in 1957, and thought I was probably the longest one away from NY on this board.
I will have to try that pizza after midnight snack because it has been a long time since I've had a subway dream. I've had to rely on this board to keep me up-to-date on subway news!
>>> Did You really leave in 1948? <<<
Karl;
Yes, I did move out of the City in 1948, but I returned for a month each summer through 1956 and did most of my railfanning during that time. I still remember the R-15 as the most modern looking subway car.
I also returned for short visits to Flushing in 1958, 1959, 1962 and 1964, but did not do any railfanning during those visits.
Tom
I did get to ride the R-16's and a little of the R-17's before I left.
I was back as recently as 1982 but never had an opportunity to ride the subways since my trips were by auto, and only 2 day visits.
Sounds like fun! you need a dream about the B division. Maybe when you'd dream about an R44/46/48 you'd think it was the Super Chief or the like; until you got inside the cars!
As luck would have it I've had a few the other way around, dreamed I rode the Manhattan el MUDC's, High-V and Low-V on a few occasions.
Save for a few details, your dream is pretty close to reality.
When the first eight cars of the R143 arrives on TA property, will more cars come on the property or will testing will be done first to work out the "minor" glitches?
oh and by the way, according to my friend, a T/O on the 7 line, the last express of the day is the 12:09 out of main
Do you mean 12:09 A.M. or 12:09 P.M.?
BMTJeff
The last Manhattan-bound 7 express leaves Main Street at 12:09 P.M.
Are you sure about that? I used to ride the 7 daily and I thought the last city-bound express left at about 8:45 a.m.
I think that is about right. I think it might be 12:02 or 12:03. I downloaded the schedule yesterday but I have to double check.
oh and by the way as per the GO advisories,
the express <7>'s run from 12:30p to 10pm.
The repuation for the R-68's express runs are pretty bad, but for the 4 years I have been riding the D they seem to be getting faster.
Especially after the morning rush-hour going up town. Some of the drivers dont brake when they get to the 103st "hill" and dont break after, so they reach increible speeds, at least 45-50 m.p.h which is impressive for a 90,000 pound piece of stainless steel. We need more of those drivers on the R-68's to see their potential.
"If you're committed via pick to something
that turns out to be "not everything it seemed"
you just GOTTA stick on and get your kicks
anyway you know how.."
_Anonymous T/O
The A & D trains can't do more than 38 mph. If they go any faster, the timers will trip the train. On the hill, you can get to 42 mph.
>>The A & D trains can't do more than 38 mph. If they go any faster, the timers will trip the train.<<
I've seen them doing 45. The speedometer said: 45mph.
This evening Wed.5/9 on "Jeopardy" from Phila.the final question was What is known as the Nile River Horse ? The 3 contestants were high school seniors. The 1st.said a Zebra, 2nd. A crock, 3rd. a Hippo. Alex says you are the winner. Hippo it is they play for 50,000.oo thursday.
My impression is that the derision the R68s get is strictly a subtalk phoenomenon, and that they really don't deserve it. Their heinous crime is that they aren't the R10, which appear to have been overrated themselves. Besides, NOTHING is exactly speeding these days.
:-) Andrew
But the R68 is the slowest of the slow. Agreed, all NYC Subway trains are slower than they used to but I have ridden several R68 trains and they are slower than some other NYC trains. The R44/46 also fall in this category.
When a Q and a D leave Church Ave southbound at the same time, both run at the same speed until the D slows for Beverley. I've read many times here that the R40 will blow away an R68, but I haven't seen it, and I ride one or the other every day.
The R68, like the R44 and R46 have better sound-proofing and sound muffling from the A/C than the earlier trains do, so you don't here the sounds of speed. The R10 had open windows and at their age a lot of rattles, contributing to the impression of speed. The r40s are held together with duct tape.
The r10, r38 and r40 are much faster then the r68
Thank you, Michael. At least we know one subtalker who is not confused by facts.
Besides, you can't go on perceived races between paralel trains. There are many different factors (such as timers, or congestion) which contriubute to one train being slower than the other on a given trip.
:-) Andrew
There are no timers or any congestion on this part of the line. This is not an isolated event. I witness it fairly frequently. Sometimes one train is slightly faster, sometimes the other. But neither has an edge.
Below are a couple of things I do, if you do them too, then you're just as crazy about trains as I am.
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures of the City Hall station?
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the LIRR?
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait and take a picture of the next train coming?
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
10. Are you lways upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
And finally...
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Drop the net, boys! Heh. Guilty as charged on many ... but ya missed one ... TAKING a train ... literally ... of course, extra points for putting it back. :)
That's not so bad, I used to steal cars (occasionally with 'permission'). I had good taste in cars too, I only stole PCCs untill they got retired...
As for subway cars, I got to drive them on occasion with 'permission' from the drivers. Of course, my favourite trick was to open the little door on the cab end of the Gloucster cars and reach in for the little crank and look up at the mirror behind the hole in the ceiling and change the destination sign to something implausible like Downtown or better yet HAPPY BIRTHDAY 1984!
Ya know? Aside from the Newark City Subway, I had never been on or in a PCC. Went for an obligatory ride on it back somewhere after I left the TA - 1973 or 74 somewhere. Nice toy. Natch, the "driver" was in no mood to "scooch over" ... heh.
And yeah, when I was a kid, I used to LOVE to change the roll signs, side and rear when I was alone in a car, though my favorite activity was letting myself into the rear cab and just sitting in there.
We used to change to side signs on busses when we were coming home from school and it was standing room only. If you were standing, you just leaned over and slowly turned the knob. We changed the route from an "L" bus to an "S" bus many times.
When I started bus riding with my fiend he always let me change the sign at the end of the route. One time, on an old GMC , there was only a little window you could part of the sign through, and I put up
"33-Dauphin", instead of "33-Reed". I caught my error at the end of
the line. None of the passengers ever said anyhthing, the just knew it
was a westbound Rte. 64 bus.
Chuck Greene
the scanner thing,I do that, boy oh boy if they only knew what i knew at the moment
I meet the qualifications for 6, 7, 9, 10, 15 and 16.
As for 18, I'd have to hate myself, wouldn't I?
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
No
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
Yes (although it doesn't matter the car or the age)
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures
of the City Hall station?
No
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the
LIRR?
I believe that the railfan window is first come first serve...
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
No
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
Yes. I also do it for the viechels passing by.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait
and take a picture of the next train coming?
All the time
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
Occasionally
10. Are you lways upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
N/A
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
No
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
WHAT?
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
No
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Yes
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
Yes
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Yes
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
IDK
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
Yes
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
Almost
And finally...
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
YES!
i think i scored pretty good on this test !! .....lol !!!
So you hate me?
I don't hate people who like Repulsive Rustbirds, but I hate people who hate R-142s for only the reason they'll replace them and for no rational or logical reason.
I don't get you.
Rephrase. I don't like the R142A for several reasons. Read my post about my trip.
I did. But at least you don't hate them just because they're going to replace the Repulsive Rustbirds.
The only things I dislike about the R-142 is the front end sign and the fact that the sides are too bland. You can have other reasons to dislike them and they're legitimate.
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
Hell no.
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
I tell my wife..........who then promptly falls asleep.
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No, I've got a life.
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures
of the City Hall station?
I wouldn't dare. Their breaks uptown are short enough.
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the
LIRR?
I would never tell a kid that. I'd just shove him.
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
I can name the signal manufacturers. And the company that makes clip on ties for the C/R's. But not clips & ties.
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
I just need the number, I already know who built what.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait
and take a picture of the next train coming?
People look funny at me period.
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
I take wagers on the over/under of rats on the tracks. 1 1/2 is a good number.
10. Are you always upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
Oh yeah, I really get upset. Especially if the train is coming.
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
True conversation:
Train Operator: Control Center come in for the 142-A-Far Rock
Control Center: 142-A-Far Rock location & problem
TO: Yes, Control I have a 12-10 who is being a 12-12 at Ralph Av
CC: 142-A-Far Rock location & problem, but this time IN ENGLISH.
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
No, but I can identify an X-14 from a WD-40.
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
Nope.
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Guilty.
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
No, but I collect old subway & bus maps. Mu oldest are a 1924 London Bus Map and a 1937 IRT guide.
My wife on the other hand says that I collect dust.
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Would you go to your desk at work on a Sunday? Ditto.
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
Not necessary when you have a girlfriend. Afterwards, you won't have $30 left to ride with.
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
I just hate people.
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
No, but I often leave one without permission.
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
I think I'm crazy for actually answering all 20 questions.
(looking at zman and shaking my head)
Zman, my friend, with a sense of humor like yours, you don't need a brake handle and a reverser. You need a stage and a microphone! LOL
Shame. All that talent going to waste. LOL
Zman, my friend, with a sense of humor like yours, you don't need a brake handle and a reverser. You need a stage and a microphone!
So you're saying he should be a C/R instead of a T/O? ;)
Exactly! Who's going to hear all that humor in the front of the train? LOL
Here are my answers:
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
No, but if I had a scanner, I would.
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
Yes. They couldn't care less.
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No.
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures of the City Hall station?
I have never been able to stay on a #6 train after Brooklyn Bridge - I keep getting kicked off the train. However, if I was able to stay on, I would try to do as you suggest.
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the LIRR?
No, but I have made my annoyance known to non-railfans who hog the front window not knowing what they're seeing.
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
No.
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
Not always, but usually.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait and take a picture of the next train coming?
I've never taken such a picture, but people do look funny at me while I'm standing there watching the train leave, looking at station details, et al.
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
Yes.
10. Are you lways upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
They always go down, so I've never experienced this.
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
No.
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
No.
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
No, but I have many books with train photos in them. Does that count?
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Yes.
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
No.
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Sometimes. If there's something about a train, either if its very old or very new, I will go out of my way to ride it.
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
No.
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
No, they're just misguided.
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
Yes.
And finally...
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
Ask my wife.
1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 11 -some 13 15 16 17 18 ( i hate everyone ) 19 20, sometimes i ruin trains but thats accidental
1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 11 -some 13 15 16 17 18 ( i hate everyone ) 19 20, sometimes i ruin trains but thats accidental hey wait inever asked a kawasaki employee nothing
I can answer part of question #6; Pandrol Jackson manufactures the knuckle clips that are used nowadays instead of the spikes.
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
No. CTA employees get really pissed when I try to plug my headphones into their radios.
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
Yes. My friends marvel at how gracefully the R26's handle the curves of the Loop.
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No, but I'll be sure to ask the next time I find myself shopping for a motorcycle or jet ski.
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures of the City Hall station?
Don't New York City subway trains go real slow pretty much all the time?
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the LIRR?
No, but I've occasionally shoved elderly people out of the way so I could get a seat at rush hour.
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
Umm... Microsoft, Disney, and McDonald's. (No, I don't really know, but I figure I have pretty good odds with those.)
7. Do you alwys look for the number and builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
Yeah, you wouldn't believe how much those things will fetch on eBay.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait and take a picture of the next train coming?
People look at me funny all the time, so I really haven't noticed.
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
Does counting subway rats qualify?
10. Are you always upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
Yes, except for when my car is stalled on the tracks.
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
No. See my answer to question #1.
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
Yeah, but my car only uses 5W-30.
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
My house doesn't have two rooms.
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Who the hell would want to take a photo of another person?
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
I used to, but I couldn't convince the guy at Sharper Image that they were credit cards.
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Yes, except for when I have to get off the train and go to work.
17. Have you ever spent more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
Yes, but I hate most people in general, so it really doesn't matter.
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
You need permission to walk into a railyard? (oops)
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
many chuckles, but when an one of one's ex's still occasionally sends you train picutres you konw you are ok.
13. Don't you have a bathroom?
No. I usually relieve myself on the subway, particularly in Redbirds. But sometimes I can't make it to New York in time, so I use CTA 2600's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
yeah this is me! I didn't answer yes to all of them, but I could answer yeah to alot that my friends would answer Hell no 2. LOL
There is a picture taken in 1995 accompanying the article about the Coney Island terminal. It depicts a sign indicating service via the Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and IND ? Lines. The sign is still there, but is sure to be removed during renovations. What is the missing word between IND and Lines? I stared at it "live" for some time and couldn't make out what is covered over. There appears to be room for four letters.
Any chance that it might be & BMT?
"Culver"
David
Right. It was proably "IND" placed over "Culver", after that line effectively turned into an IND back in the 1950's. That must be one old sign!
:-) Andrew
The missing word changed a few times. From BMT days it read:
"Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and West End Lines"
in 1954 it was changed to:
"Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and IND Concourse Culver Lines"
"Concourse Culver" meant the "D" train. The words CONCOURSE and CULVER where jammed on top of each other on two lines of narrow type. Then after the D and F were switched, they removed the "Concourse" but I'm not sure if they left the "Culver" or made it bigger.
Whoops! I meant, for the original:
"Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and Culver Lines"
What happens when I post without previewing.
Paul: Been there, done that. And I also felt like a moron.
Fred, I think that sign also more or less showed the pecking order in BMT days: Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Culver, since it sure didn't reflect the order of the track assignments.
I sure hope that sign goes to the Transit Museum. It's surely BMT era. I remember my dad explaining the line names on the sign to me. His memory went back to Culver Depot.
"I sure hope that sign goes to the Transit Museum."
I don't think that sign is headed to the Transit Museum. I was told that with the plans of reconstructing Stillwell that sign will be refinished and rehung in the new terminal.
Bill "Newkirk"
that sign will be refinished and rehung in the new terminal.
Be still my beating heart! :-)
And they'll redo it with CULVER, I hope, not one of the post-'54 bastardizations.
I guess some people who feel it's not authenicate if the sign is repainted, but lots of signs on the system were painted and repainted. Back round 1958 or so, the TA put in a token vending machine (winder of the ages!!) in the outer wall of the Church Avenue token booth. A painter came in and repainted "BMT LINES" on the station wall.
I thought it might be because of alphabetical order, but that had to go by the boards because Culver was listed last. The Brighton was always the apple of the TA's eye even in my youthful days. I think it was because it ran as two lines, local and express, and was the only train that used both Standard and Triplex cars. However, when articles were written about the subway most of the time it was about the Sea Beach. I know because I read them all, even as a kid. Perhaps because in Brooklyn it was an open cut, below street level and yet in God's own sunshine.
The BMT had two "bread and butter" lines--the core services that dependably made the most money and received the most attention from management.
The Brighton was one, can you guess the other?
Jamaica?
No I can't. Can you tell me? Is it good news for me to hear? Otherwise, forget it.
No I can't. Can you tell me [the two BMT bread-and-butter lines]? Is it good news for me to hear? Otherwise, forget it.
Brighton Beach and Fulton Street.
Fred, check the related website, I think its www.bmt-lines. Anyway, the exact address is given in the section on "related sites". Check the fares collected for 1927-8 (yes, the time of introduction of the Triplexes). Guess what? The Brighton and the Fulton had the most fares. The Sea Beach, well......
Well Q, you've done it. You've cast a pall on my day. The truth does hurt sometimes, doesn't it?
If only 4 letters, I'll guess "6th Av". My home station was Av I, and, while my parents always referred to the McDonald Av line as the Culver, there were very few IND signs that did so in the 60's and 70's. I think the Culver name has been resurrected of late, but it was definitely suppressed back then.
About a year ago, I saw a Spanish movie called "Nueba Yol" which takes place in the Dominican Republic, Miami, and New York, of all places. In one scene, the main character, an old man looking for success and a fortune in the Big City, tries to find his way around and rides the subway up to Washington Heights to see family and friends. He rides the A train...with R40 slants, the ones BEFORE the TA added on the safety features.
Now, my question is: Did the A line EVER have any R40 slants or is it only the creation of the movie producers? It looked like they were actually on the A line. I just wanna hear from you guys ASAP...just curious...
CWalNYC
I saw this movie in Spanish I remember a scene @ 181 St on the "A" it was the R110B that was used in the scene he was lost in the subway & showed a scene @ 145 St upper level. Majority of the movie scene was in Washington Hts also their is a shot outside the 14 St-Union Sq Sta.
P.S. My parents are from D.R.
I took some 35mm slides back in 1979 and 1980 at Howard Beach station while waiting for the JFK Express, and one of the shots was most certainly an R40 slant on the "A" train.
There were most definitely R40 slants on the "A" line in the '80's. I remember taking them in High School.
Today I was walking around the back of 240 St Shops & I notice that R62A 1660-56 was sporting 1 & had Westchester Yard yellow labels, whats going on with this yard equipment changes? I know that these cars were on the #1/9 lines like 10-15 years ago.
A NJT NEC train pantograph-catenary entanglement suspended eastbound service at 9:30.
brief Daily News story
Duration of service suspension was not stated. I saw an eastbound Amtrak train approaching the tunnel at 1:25 AM this morning.
Can anyone suggest the most dirct subway route from Port Authority (42nd) to 14 Boerum Place in Brooklyn (it's the other side of 111 Livingston St.) Thansk for your assistance!
[For the future, you can get 24hr. directions, including specific street addresses, from the MTA, at (718) 330-1234.]
Take downtown A or C train to Jay St./Borough Hall. Be in one of the front two cars. Go up the stairs, then through the black metal revolving exit door. Then, go up the stairs to your immediate right, to the street. You'll be near the corner of Jay St. & Fulton St. Walk forward a few steps to the corner, look to your right, and you'll see a big street - that's Boerum Place. Cross it & turn left. You'll see Livington Street shortly.
There was some talk awhile ago of the MTA annexing the PATH system, or at least taking over the operation, followed by 'over our dead bodies' talk by PATH officials, as I seem to remember.
Leaving out the argument whether MTA takeover would actually be beneficial for the PATH...if the MTA did so...what would be the nomenclature of the lines?
I've always been fascinated by naming schemes and signage. The PATH operates on two trunk lines, one out to Hoboken and one out to Jersey City and on to Newark. Free transfers to the IND/BMT would be at 33rd Street and WTC.
We still have some unsued letters lying around. Would the Hoboken line be called the H (seems natural to me)
The line to Jersey City and Newark be called the P, the next unused letter, or perhaps the T? My vote would go to X.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin:
These really aren't "trunk" lines per se.
Would your "H" go from Hoboken to WTC or 33rd?
The PATH system is somewhat unique in its crossover design, with the Pavonia/Newport station serving both Journal Square and WTC-bound trains on the same track.
As a PATH rider, I have brought up this subject before, and I think the best idea would be a common fare system, not an actual merger. I.e. free transfer from PATH to MTA and back. I need to get to 42nd street and 5th Ave, for which I often take the IND 6th Ave 1 stop for $1.50 extra. Somewhat silly.
What PATH should do is expand on the Jersey side, something the MTA has no license to do. PATH should be extended to Newark Airport as a first step.
PPS
It's not the letters that you should be figuring, it should be the new name for the PATH trains since the name "PORT AUTHORITY Trans-Hudson" doesn't fit into the MTA scheme of things.
What would YOU rename the PATH to? What do you think the brainiacs at the MTA would call it?
"What would YOU rename the PATH to? What do you think the brainiacs at the MTA would call it?"
How about MTATH? pronounced "em-tath", rhymes with "empath".
Or maybe something really banal like "MTA New Jersey" or cool like "Sixth borough transit", the "affordable living express"....
PPS
It could go from PATH to Path (ie, no longer an acronym).
OR MATH: Mta Across The Hudson.
MTA Trans-Hudson System
I'd call it .. MTA Hudson Tubes
I think "Hudson and Manhattan" has a nice ring to it...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTA Trans-Hudson Railway. Kinda similar to MTA Staten Island Railway. Maybe MTA Hudson Railway even.
Shawn.
What they're after is MTA operation and Metrocard with Port Authority financing. Still and all, I would like to see the 9th Street bellmouth extended to the Lex's Astor Place station. Since PATH intends to buy R142 clones, some economies-of-scale could occur there too.
Ummm...ISTR this was scrapped because whenever a train came from Astor Place heading southwest, it would cross a track which has service in the other direction, thus delaying all northbound trains.
-------------+---------- <-- Southbound
. . . . . . .\ . . . .
---> ----------+--------
. . . . . . . . \
. . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . To Astor Place
That's one reason. Another (though not relevant any more) is that the H&M had somewhat of a falling out with the IRT. And the last original reason is that there is some bad ground in there, though I don't know if that would affect construction today. Currently, there's a bunch of electrical distribution stuff that would need to be relocated.
Since PATH is close to IRT scale, I would think it would get numbers instead of letters, and ideally would be hooked into the existing system. And they could just keep the name PATH, since you would then have the IND/BMT trains and the IRT/PATH lines.
As far as the connections, instead of a grade crossing at the Ninth Street bellmouth, I'd prefer a flying junction at Sheridan Square for a new line down West Fourth, with a stop at Washington Square and then hooking into the IRT Lexington Ave. local tracks. From there, the line from either Journal Square or Newark could run up to 59th-Lex (non-rush hours) or 177th-Parkchester during the rush.
First, there isn't enough distance between the eastbound and westbound tracks to allow a flying junction there. Next, nobody really knows what sort of condition the iron tunnel segments are in - the PA analyzed some of the segments in the abandoned Hudson Terminal trackage in the 70's, but it's anybody's guess as to whether that is representative of the ironwork elsewhere in the system. It probably isn't - the ground is quite different in downtown and midtown, not to mention New Jersey (remember the iron-reducing bacteria that were "eating" the tunnels near Hoboken, thus producing the former, distinctive "Hoboken Smell"?). While I don't have any pictures of the H&M segments, here is picture of a steel segment from roughly the same time (it's actually 7 years newer) in similar ground conditions.
Last, the PATH is not truly IRT-compatible. PATH equipment will still need to meet more stringent safety requirements than the subway. But even for non-revenue service, the PATH trippers are on the other side from the IRT, and PATH has tighter curves.
From what I understand, the PATH cars can run on the IRT, but not vica-versa. I'm sure if they day came that a merger of the systems were proposed, a one-size-fits all car could be built, and the existing IRT cars would have the same relationship to the Hudson Tubes that the 75-footers on the B Division have with the J/L/M/Z today.
As far as the flying junction, the connections colud be made from the outside sections of the tubes and would then drop under the Christopher Street tracks to head over to the East Side (can't go over because the IRT Seventh Ave. tracks are in the way).
The older PATH cars (before the PA-# series) would probably have been operable on the IRT. They would have needed modification to trip on the other side. Current PA-# cars would likely have clearance issues on the IRT as they bow out at the waistline - they required some modifications to the PATH tunnels, and they still clip the walls occasionally (I was on a car a couple months ago that scraped the wall at the Grove crossover).
Regardless of the spatial possibilities for building new junctions, for the reasons I gave earlier the PA is likely to have the heebie-jeebies about opening up any of the ring sections. Every time there's a critical issue (like the dredging accident in the westbound downtown tube, or the leaks at 9th Street) they've always just slapped some quick-curing concrete on it and tried not to think about it too much. Speaking of which, the westbound midtown tunnel is (was) only 1/4" plate iron on the outside of 6 courses of brick. I bet that iron is long gone...
Whoch brings up a side question -- I'm sure the TA has tunnel inspectors for their own lines and PATH has inspectors for their, but do the two agencies talk to each other -- or at least talk to each other better than the MTA and the Port Authority do -- about the conditions of the shared portion of Sixth Ave. between Ninth and 32nd streets?
I don't know. They're on different levels for parts of that distance, and they're different types of construction from different times. I expect that if either noticed a problem in their area, they'd communicate it to the other, but I don't know how formalized that channel is.
Free transfers to the IND/BMT would be at 33rd Street and WTC.
They could reconfigure the 33rd street complex to transfer, but there's no way to reconfigure the WTC.
And PATH at WTC is a lot closer to the IRT (1-9) than to the IND or BMT. The only practical way to connect to A/C/E/N/R at WTC would be to make the whole mall area under fare control.
That would not be necessary. When the escalators were replaced at 51/Lex, they allowed a walking transfer between the IRT and IND at 59th Street. All that would be needed is for the turnstiles to be programmed to allow a transfer within two hours if the trip started on PATH or if you were transferring to PATH. Of course, PATH would need MetroCard Tunrstiles and MetroCards.
Each station and bus line has a unique code number which determines validity of transfers. They would assign code numbers to PATH and then have the turnstiles recognize the code and allow a free transfer. No exit swipe is needed- just swip at the other system.
Why have the MTA take over PATH, when we can raise the subway fare and use the money to keep the PATH fare low without a takeover?
Without a takeover, we can increase class sizes in NYC kindergartens and use the money for PATH instead.
Here's the URL...
http://idonline.com/dr99/concepts/dd_list.html
I'm not sure if it's real or computer generated or real. But computer generations wouldn't have reflections on the floor and the floor wouldn't be textured. Also note the advertisements.
I'm not sure if it's real or computer generated or real. But computer generations wouldn't have reflections on the floor and the floor wouldn't be textured. Also note the advertisements.
The photo is too small for me to tell if it's real or computer-generated. However, it is possible for computer-generated renderings to have things like reflections, textures, and other images. It all depends on what software you're using and how much effort you're willing to put into creating the rendering.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Frohm now on, I wil bee rahyting my mesahjez in a fonetik wey.
Be my guest, but kindly brush up on your IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) first.
Yawn
These seem to be on the other end of the spectrum unlike the R32, these seem to be the most despised cars. Just barely nudging out the R142.
Now, I don't live in NYC and have never ridden a subway, but I'd just like to know what everyone is basing this "Hippo Myth" on.
If the R68 is quieter than most other subway cars, then that can be a major factor. Before Houston's RTS buses went to that bus depot in the sky (sniff), they seemed like some of the fastest buses in the fleet, actually, they were quite slow. What made them seem so fast is that they put on a show. The ubs would be so lound and make that famous RTS whine that it sounded like you were going 80 when you were barely over 30. On the other hand, our Neoplan Artics remind me of hippos. Even though they take off just as fast an RTS, they are nearly silent so it seems as if you're in for a slow, cumbersome ride.
So, if you're on something that rattles and makes a bunch of noise, of course it's going to seem like it's going faster than something quieter, especially a subway car, which has regulated speeds over certain tracks if I'm not mistaken.
So really, is the R68 as slow as so many make it out to be? Or, is your mind playing tricks on you?
I believe the R-68s slowness is based mainly on its seemingly slower accelleration and the same seeming slowness on uphill climbs compared with other cars. Once it gets up to speed it may be roughly equiavlent to the R-32 through R-46 series, but it just seems to take longer to get there.
Perhaps 0-to-40 time trials along the Brighton line or on CPW are in order to either prove or disprove the theory once and for all (though for 99.9 percent of the riding public, the reliability of the cars is far more important than a minute or so shaved off the trip, so Train Dude's high MBDF number for the Concourse R-68As trumps any MPH number difference between them and the R-40s on the Brighton or the R-38s along CPW)
R68A MUs are not shopped out of Concourse, only Coney Island.
R68 MUs are shopped at both Coney and Concourse.
R68A MUs ARE however layed up/stored at Concourse for "B" service.
Because these are the quietest trains of the system, and the smoothest, I think that a lot of the perceived slowness is just that-perceived. Cars like the R32 make a lot more noise and do a lot of shaking (though they do seem like very good cars on their own terms) so it's easy to see how they seem faster.
It may be that the R68 accelerates a little slower than some others, but I'm pretty sure it's just as fast as the other cars in the long run.
Non-subtalkers have no problems with the R68. It and the R62 are well liked by most people I talk to (who obviously don't call it by the car class number, but by the lines they serve.) My wife, for instance, prefers the more "modern" trains of the N to the older ones (yup! The R46) on the R. I'd say that the silver interior is cheerier than the R44/46, even if there is a homey feel about the latter. The only problem with the silvedr is all the scratchiti (though you'll notice that's often a problem on the windows, as with any car class, than anywhere else.)
So my take on the R68: Not my own favorite, not great looking (though I think better looking than the post-GOH R44 or R46), but a nice, reliable, and modern car.
(BTW it seems the R142 deserves its bad Subtalk rep even less.)
:-) Andrew
...and one not-so-unimportant perk of the R68 (and also the R62), GREAT rollsigns, just about the best signs of the whole fleet. You can tell what line it is from a mile away.
:-) Andrew
No, because the ride on a Hippo takes alot longer. In the 6th ave dash the ride on a Hippo seems about 20 seconds longer than a Slant R40. Granted it's not a big difference.
Also the braking sucks, you can't get those damn things to stop.
On 6th ave when an F pulls aside a Hippo the F train of R46's always seems to stop first and it's doors open before the B or D train.
I've seen this on numerous occasions.
The top speed on an R68 may not differ that much from other cars, but acceleration and braking are ALOT slower. Alot of this I believe has to do with the fact R68's are the heaviest cars in the system. Something heavier will take longer to accelerate and to stop. Simple law of physics.
20 Seconds? 20 seconds? Do you know that 20 seconds can be made up by simply jogging off the train?
Now you may say that 20 seconds could mean missing a train and catching one. But let's look at it this way; An R40 arrives at a station 20 seconds before an R68. You find out that your connection left 20 seconds ago. You say, "Those damn hippos, 20 seconds too late!" But guess what? The guy in the R32is still standing on the platform as well cursing the subway sytem in genral because as he got off of his "speedy" R32, the train was already pulling out. Alas, an R32 AND a whole 20 seconds couldn't get him that connection.
That R40 is supposed to be R32.
No, because the ride on a Hippo takes alot longer. In the 6th ave dash the ride on a Hippo seems about 20 seconds longer than a Slant R40. Granted it's not a big difference.
Don't use alot so callously. It doesn't mean the same as "not a big difference." And it's true. It isn't a big difference.
Also the braking sucks, you can't get those damn things to stop.
I've never felt any braking problems on a train. I've never had a train miss its mark and overshoot the station. How would you know that the brakes suck? Have you ever operated an R-68?
On 6th ave when an F pulls aside a Hippo the F train of R46's always seems to stop first and it's doors open before the B or D train.
I've seen this on numerous occasions.
You've seen this because of perception. A person is more likely to notice that the train across the platform opens its doors first than noticing that one's own train opens its doors first. It's obvious that this cannot have occured always, since you would not always ride with the trains entering the station at exactly the same time.
The top speed on an R68 may not differ that much from other cars, but acceleration and braking are ALOT slower.
We already know we can't trust you to use the word alot accurately.
Alot of this I believe has to do with the fact R68's are the heaviest cars in the system. Something heavier will take longer to accelerate and to stop. Simple law of physics.
No. Gravity accelerates everything equally. Acceleration is independent of mass. What it does take is more FORCE, and therefore energy, and therefore power.
The 75 foot cars were made with motors with higher power output to compensate for the greater mass. However during GOH the MTA decided to standardize motor sizes so the 60 foot cars became more powerful, leading to the speed problems that forced them to disconnect field shunting to compensate. However for 75-foot cars this was not a problem but field shunting was disconnected anyway.
The whole acceleration and deceleration thing means that the R-68 are best suited for EXPRESS runs, not local runs. Therefore the decision to run R-40s on the Brighton local and R-68s on the express makes sense even without considering the rollsigns.
We already know we can't trust you to use the word alot accurately.
Especially since there is no such word as "alot," but there is a phrase "a lot."
"alot" is another example of what I was referring to a few weeks ago. Dey is murderin' my language.
Perception plays a great part in some evaluations of trains on Subtalk. As for the facts, the R-68 is about 4,000 Lbs heavier than the R-46. They both have the same HP rating. They both have the same brake system. However, the R-68s are adjusted so that they can draw more current on accelleration so both cars will accellerate at the same rate. Since the R-68 service and emergency variable load valves are calibrated differently than the R-46s and the dynamic brake current of the R-68 is slightly higher, the R-68s and R-46s brake at the same rate. However, the R-68 has a WABCO brake valve (Since SMS) that out-performs the NYAB Brake valve. Hence, most people who know what they are talking about would disagree with you about the R-68 braking.
By the way: The Concourse R-68 MDBF for April was 315,000 miles while the R-46 was 140,000, the R-44 was 78,000 and the R-68A was 159,000. The Concourse R-68 MDBF has been over 200,000 miles for 8 consecutive months. Yup, they sure do suck.
If you'll indulge a subfan's curiosity, what is an HP rating?
:-) Andrew
Horsepower Rating. I believe all cars are rated at 115 HP per motor with 4 motors per truck or car. I forgot.
I believe it's horsepower. All NYCT cars through R-68A use 4 115 HP traction motors.
HP is short for horsepower, the unit of power which is commonly
used to rate the performance of motors. It was literally based
on the amount of work that a single horse can produce, i.e.
that a certain amount of weight could be lifted at a certain speed.
All current NYCT subway cars, other than the R110 and 142 fleets,
use four 115 horsepower motors per car.
It was literally based on the amount of work that a single horse can produce.
Since not all horses can do the same work at the same speed, it was mainly an arbitrary creation by (ironically) James Watt.
Somewhere at NIST there must be a standard horse that can be
used for calibrating power measurement instruments.
The Watt is the official unit of power measurement. Whore's Power is just converted from the Watt.
It's the rating that Hewlett-Packard gives to the trains. :-)
But seriously, Watts are better than horsepower. When was the last time somebody actually used a horse for powering anything?
Well, here's another question form yours truly; what is the fascination with the Redbird cars? From what I've gathered on this board, it seems that it's just the fact that they're very old and painted red.
I've never heard them doing anything special in the maintenence department, though people will commonly assume since they've been on the road 40+ years, they MUST be very good cars. But you can keep a piece of junk on the road longer than the average life time (SEPTA and WMATA RTS-03s, NJTs Grumman-Flxible Rejects).
It seems to me that the Rust- er I mean, REDBirds have been the lucky recipients of a lax car retirement plan, GOH programs, no emission standards, being old, and painted red.
So from what I've gathered from the Redbird fans here is that you MUST love these cars because (1), they're RED, (2) they're OLD, and (3), they're SIMPLE. Well two of those reasons are ass backward arguments and one is inane and non-sensical.
So, someone please tell me what's SOOOOOO good about these 40 year old shells.
Well, fascination woth older soon to be retired subway cars goes with the territory. A certain type car that has been around for X amount of years becomes ingrained into the woodwork and a piece of everyday life. When impending retirement is on the horizon, we ride and photograph these cars since time is running out.
The same phenomenom about the Redbirds I too experienced with the reirement of the BMT Standards and Triplexs (D Types). The same goes for buffs living in the Bronx whose territory was once Low-V types. When the impending last of the Low-Vs were retired from the Bronx 3rd Ave. "el", the Redbird phenomenom was there.
If you go back a generation or two, the older buffs expierenced the same Redbird phenomenom with the retirement of the last streetcars. You can use this type phenomenom with buses too.
So, it basically comes with the territory. We feel this way when a certain type subway car etc. will soon no longer be a part of the our daily lives. When they're gone, they're gone for good.
Bill "Newkirk"
While I love new car equipment more than old cars, I'll admit the redbirds are kinda cool. Mainly because they are loud, rough, gritty and the brakes squeal. All those reasons are also why I like the NYC subway. Of course, if I had to ride them everyday, listening to all those things I liked, I'd probably start disliking them. In addition to the reasons I stated, the 7 line is cool becasue there are some great views of the city, so maybe the views combined with the noises they make also adds to the appeal of the redbirds.
From the time I was a child I enjoyed the sounds of the old equipment that I knew, and which I described to you in an e-mail . When I became a subway commuter and later employee I still enjoyed the sounds of the old relics, never got tired of it and even now still envision myself running those old things.
Running GE diesels and hearing them years later reminds me of the sounds of the old Alco's I liked.etc etc
To my generation who loved the rails the sounds of traction motors, clattering over jointed rail, the rock and roll ride over same, were railroading. It wouldn't be good for attracting business nowadays though, whether Amtrak or rail transit.
If you're a railfan I don't think you'd get to dislike those sounds.
And that's why I personally want to see them retired. In high school, I had to ride those Methuselahs on the 2 and 5 every day to and from school. I personally hated all the breakdowns, the faulty air-condtioning and heat and all that peeling paint and rust - and slow speeds on the 2 line. I felt jealous that other lines had much newer or newer looking cars, such as the R32s, R40s, R46s, R62/62As and R68/68As. It also made me think that the TA didn't care about the 2 and 5 or the many people in the Bronx who ride them. The fact that the 2 and 5 also had the oldest signals, rotting station canopies, poor lighting and were among the last lines to get MetroCard turnstiles didn't make things any better. Finally the stations, lighting, signals and turnstiles were improved. But now the cars need to be replaced. THEY'RE ROTTING AND RUSTING AWAY! THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED! THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT!
Here I go for the ultimate blasphemy here - watch my back, guys ... I hated the redbirds when they were NEW ... they displaced my beloved LoV's ... when the R1/9's went byebye (same for the LoV's) everyone was happy to see the "old junk" go ...
They belong in a museum (redbirds that is) and it'll be a genuine shame if none are preserved for that purpose ... but alas, the purpose of a subway is to move people safely and efficiently and those things were rusting out in the 1960's ... I shudder to think of what I'd see if I were to open a door panel and look inside.
Enjoy them for what they were, go ride some while you still can and PRAY that some of them will end up in a happier place where you can ride one for fun without it getting in the way of the "real" railroad. It's time for them to go. (sniff)
A few times I've seen the inside of some of the door panels on the Redbirds. It wasn't a pretty sight. Rust, rust, rust everywhere. But I will try to get pictures of them before they're gone. Sure it won't be the same without them, but they are rusting away. Their time has come. Perhaps if they were made by Budd (then they'd have to be Silverbirds) they could stay in service longer. But that's not the case. The 2, 5 and 7 lines need to have modern subway cars.
That's OK, you shoulda seen some of the cabs I saw in some of them back in 1970/71 ... I *know* it was downhill from there. I'm just amazed that the cars aren't entirely made of Bondo ... anyone try putting magnets on the sides to see? :)
I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are. Bondobirds, anyone?:-)
Ah, but these cars are painted BRIGHT red! There is something garishly appealing about them, espcially contrasting the mojnotony of all stainless steel throughout the rest of the system.
I suppose the redbirds are part of the "charm" of today's IRT. The noise, the jerky motion (you can get serious motion sickness on these things), the jolt of the brakes. That plus the elevated lines, obscenely tight curves, and vintage stations and it's all part of the experience which screams "ancient historical NYC subway".
But...the IRT is not just a historical trail. It's a route commuters depend on. And these cars have seriously outlived their usefulness. I look forward to seeing some R62s on the (7), and for the redbirds to become the history they really are. They're beautiful cars, but they've got to go, the sooner the better!
:-) Andrew
I should add that the "history" aspect of the redbirds is slightly fictionalized. These cars have only been painted this bright red color since the mid 1980's, and in fact painted steel cars were on the B-divison lines to up until 1993.
:-) Andrew
Coming from someone who "doesn't live in New York"
and "have never ridden the subway" this querie
makes as much sense as any of us NYers asking
"What the woop-dee-doo over the Alamo, compadre?"
No matter what we say, no matter what we
describe, our answers will not do justice
to anyone (not even Houston) mystical wondering..
..... until thy comes and sees the NYC Subways
in all their third rail glories--firsthand.
How does it not make sense? I DON'T live there you genuis so DUH, I would have to ask what's the big fuss over rusted pieces of worn out shit from the people who DO live there.
But I suppose you only posted that to skirt over the issue at hand. I suppose you have no real reason for liking the very old, rusted, worn, dirty, squealing brake equipped, bad A/C having, hideous red colored, dirty railfan windowed, jerky, noisy, subway cars you painstakingly defend.
Your logic, as you have just proved, is quite stupid. I won't call you stupid though, as I'm sure you have SOME strong suits, but obviously you choose to hide them from this board. I must say, you're doing very well.
...the very old, rusted, worn, dirty, squealing brake equipped, bad A/C having, hideous red colored, dirty railfan windowed, jerky, noisy, subway cars you painstakingly defend.
Every one of those is a correct description.
Oh God, there's that word "mystical" again . . .
When it comes time for them to implode the now-nearly-useless Astrodome, and the Houston Chronicle and all the local TV stations start running tomes about how a piece of the city's history will soon be gone forever, you'll get a general idea about how some of us feel about the Redbirds (for all I know you may want to blow the damn concrete edifice up today, but I guarantee there will be a lot of people in Houston who'll want to preserve it, even if it's only used for stock shows, rodeos and motocross races 10 times a year).
As has been said, most of us will miss something that's prety much been part of our lives for as long as we can remember. I remember my first trip to Yankee Stadium in 1963 (8-2 over the K.C. Athletics) was uptown in an old Low V, but back home in a brand new and bright red R-29 -- not that I knew it was an R-29 back then, but it was new, and a lot nicer than that old thing we went uptown from Grand Central on (showing that I had the same feeling back then about the Low Vs that a lot of people on the board have today about the `Birds)
Personally, I was never too hot on the R-21 and R-22 series and wasn't unhappy to see the R-62s take their place, but the remaining cars on the IRT, particularly the R-33/36 WFs were pretty much the culmination of the New York City subway's 60-year experience with carbon steel-bodied rolling stock. And I still think the World's Fair color scheme on the Flushing Line was the best looking cars, exterior and interior, the TA ever produced. And despite the abuse the St. Louis Car Co. takes, the last series of Redbirds has been among the most reliable in the MTA's fleet -- rusty, but reliable.
Nothing lasts forever, and I'm sure five or six years from now we'll go through the same thing when it's time for the Slant 40s to make way for the R-160s (Slant fans seemingly being far more numerous than R-38 or R-42 fans on the board). all things come to an end, but that doesn't mean we all have to rejoice about it.
Speaking as another non-New Yorker (but as somebody who has ridden the NYC subway a few times), the Redbirds don't have much meaning to me aside from being red, old, and somewhat rickety. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate vintage subway cars just like the next railfan, but I appreciate them much better in museums or on fantrips, as opposed to enduring them on my everyday commute.
But then, I never grew up with the Redbirds like some others here have, so there's no emotional connection for me. I've always had a much greater appreciation for the newer modern stuff (Boston's Bombardier 01800's come to mind). But then, maybe I'll start getting more sentimental when the R62's or the CTA 2600's start reaching retirement age. I guess it all depends on which cars you happened to be riding while "coming of age" as a railfan.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't fell any sentiment for any car that's out there now. Maybe if I get more accustomed to one for like thirty years.
That's what I meant. By the time the R62's or 2600's are due for their scrapyard appointments, I probably will have ridden them about 20-30 years and will have developed some sort of emotional bond.
Of course, 20-30 years from now, hopefully I will have designed their replacements, so maybe I'll be very eager to see them retired. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Things I, as a seasoned NYC commuter,
appreciate most about the "redbirds":
1) If an emergency were to arise where I needed to stop the train,
pulling the cord will do so, without any computer second-guessing
where the train happens to be.
2) No "ding-dong". What good is that insipid noise? It just tells
me that I'm 1 second too late to grab the doors.
3) They are generally the loudest cars inside and out. Drowns out
all the chatter from fellow passengers.
4) They have the worst PA systems. Good. I'd rather have no
announcements at all than those droning R142 automated announcements.
Most crew announcements are unintelligible or wrong anyway.
I'd just as soon not be disturbed by them. Besides, it's amusing
to watch the panic on the faces of the tourists.
5) On a precious few cars (the former "Corona" 33/36 fleet) there are
still battery lights and the main lights wink out when going over
third rail gaps. I think that's pretty cool, and it also freaks out
the tourists.
6) They are the only cars in the system left with marker lights.
Since the user-friendly color-coding system of 1979 does not provide
unique identification of oncoming trains, that leaves only the marker
lights. Unfortunately, most newer motormen have no idea what they
are for or what the correct setting is.
In how many emergencies is it beneficial to stop the train?
The ding-dong is a pleasant sound that says subway.
Chatter is quieter than that horrible noise. I only mind walkman noise. Speaking of those, if you don't like chatter, use one of them.
Then instead of a voice, you'd hear noise, which is worse. Don't like the announcement, see part two of #3.
I don't see how that's good. It interrupts one's reading (another way not to pay attention to chatter) if one is doing that. The subway is not there to entertain passengers with the bewilderment of others.
How does the user friendly system NOT tell you where the train is going? It's only a problem with a few stations on the A and 5. Train markings should be common knowledge and not esoteric. And the MTA doesn't care. There are no marker light settings today and it is official MTA practice to set it to Red-Red.
1. Mostly those in which someone or something is being dragged.
2. No, a pleasant sound that says "subway" is the electric
release of an R-9 car. Ding-dong is Mickey Mouse.
3. I don't want to schlep around a walkman-like device. White
noise is the best background music. Alright, an R10 full of
flats with the windows open was a little intense.
4. See 3
5. Most eye care professionals recommend taking periodic breaks
from reading or other close work.
6. Stand on the platform of a Manhattan trunk line.
I'll take #2 a step further. Another pleasant subway sound is the moaning and groaning of spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Not to mention pneumatic doors and throbbing air compressors.
yea man !! sweet music to me !!! .........!!
In regard to 4, the redbirds don't have an intercom so when the crew has to talk to each other it is over the PA so you might get a hint as to what the problem is.
"GO CHANNEL 4" at least you know they are talking about the problem but now with the new cars having I/C's you can't tell.
1. Oh yes. That is also helpful when rowdy teens also pull the cord for no reason.
2. It tells me that the doors are closing.
3. Also prevents you from hearing at anything higher than 14,000 Hz. Normal human hearing drops off at 18,000-20,000Hz. I just love it when my hearing gets worse, don't you?
4. Yes, they do have the worst PA systems. But it often comes out as: "AKNDHSIHFOSADF!!!!!!", real loud and painful-like. And, I especially like it when I don't hear an announcement about a GO and then find myself passing a station I have to get off at. Isn't that loads of FUN!!!
5. Yes. I'm sure that everybody here also enjoys your fascination with flashing lights. I can get a strobe light for you, and hook it up real nice so that you can watch it when your outside and that trick doesn't work. It's also nice to see tourists freak out (Really, it is quite amusing).
6. Yes. Marker Lights. Let's keep the Redbirds because they have marker lights. Who needs technology like air conditioning and intelligible announcements when you have the great marker light technology. That technology is sooooo cooool! Much cooler than any letter or number code identifiable by passengers. Matter-of-fact, why don't we just keep the redbirds because they have marker lights. Everybody loves a marker light! Let's bring back those other oldie technologies, like wood subway cars, incandescant bulbs in cars and real ceiling fans! All those technologies were the best. But most importantly, we must have marker lights, even though nobody, even TA workers, use them.
(Got a little carried away there. Sorry).
I didn't say any of those were reasons for keeping the older
cars. The original poster merely asked if there was anything
good about the cars, and I listed 6 things that came to mind.
But as far as marker lights go, had I designed the R142,
I would have included them and, to avoid incorrect settings,
had the same computer that was displaying all of the automatic
signs automatically display the correct marker lights. There's
no rule that says every rookie passenger needs to know what every
light on the car is for!
The Times has one of the ongoing analyses chewing on the recent census in Most Cities in U.S. Expanded Rapidly Over Last Decade. They seem to be linking transit with decline, concluding:
"Of the 28 cities that grew by more than 25 percent in the 1990's, an average of only 2.5 percent of the people in those cities used mass transit. But on average, the 11 cities where more than 20 percent of residents use subways and buses had flat growth. Of these cities, New York grew the fastest, at 9 percent."
" 'This makes public transportation a double-edged sword for cities,' " [Harvard Researcher] Glaeser said. 'One the one hand, it takes care of poor residents, which is admirable. But on the other hand, it attracts the poor who create a host of urban problems.' "
This is a rather odd take, because it shows how much transit has come to be viewed as a social service in as "progressive" a medium as The Times, rather than a method of enabling a work force to live decently in a location remote from the workplace.
Of course, poor people who are transit dependent are going to live where they can get about inexpensively, but what do these policy wonks suggest as an alternative? Make being poor illegal?
A glaring hole in their reasoning is that the two biggest transit cities, NY and Chicago, both grew. They cite Philadelphia as an example of a high-transit city that declined, but they ignore the suburban regions of all Philly (and NY and Chicago, for that matter) that have well-developed commuter systems, which, in case no one noticed, are also mass transit.
It is about time the researchers began to view urban areas by the British term "conurbation," which encompasses metropoltan areas. It is not only the corporate cities that define a region.
It sounds like the study also ignores that transit is also most developed in mature cities of the north and east, which one would expect to be growing more slowly than newer cities of the sunbelt. There are reasons for this, such as the fact that the older cities grew up before the automobile.
I think it would be really dumb to conclude that the presence or lack of public transportation is really what determines growth. I mean, would Philadelphia suddenly boom if we ripped up our subway and el system? I don't think anyone would suggest that.
Mark
I think some of this reasoning is laughable. The notion that mass transit attracts the poor (and by implication encourages the predominance of poverty) is a conclusion looking for evidence. Yes, people without carsare dependent on mass transit. But these include industrious, talented, professional people in a variety of fields - look at recent migration to Astoria, Roosevelt Island, Jersey City (next to, and dependent on, HBLR and PATH), as well as development in Atlanta.
Studies have repeatedly shown that mass transit development increases property values. That is clear. Now, increased residential density occurs too - and that's when single family homes are replaced by multiple-unit dwellings. Some of these people will obviously have incomes insufficient to buy a house i their choice of neighborhoods.
In contrast to NY, look at Las Vegas' growth. The strip is full of hotels, sure, and there are tony developments. But the sprawl in the desert has brought poverty and crime to the area. One of Las Vegas Metro Police' Area Commands was, 10-12 years ago, rather rural in character, almost sleepy. Now the officers respond to shootings, gang fights, drug overdoses and burglaries every night.
I do not imply that lack of transit encourages poverty, either. I don't have data showing that.
Unfortunately the car is a way of life and most people will use them even to avoid walking a few blocks.
As you state commuter rail is also mass transit so that does give the train in any form recognition.
Behind it all my feeling is that most people that can afford it will have their own patch of ground and their own home so that means suburbia except for outlying places like parts of Queens, Brooklyn, SI, and North Bronx. But then these people do a lot of express bus riding too and I won't go into detail for a good part of the reason for it..not my feelings but you all know why.
The thing the reporters forget is that the older big cities have been there a mighty long time and most of the growth areas have grown where there was a lot of room to do so; the NY and Chi suburbs grew as separate towns/villages, whatever.
What I dislike in the piece is the phrasing of the observation which suggests a causative relationship between transit and lack of growth.
I don't have a problem with researchers having a point of view, but conclusions from research should be based on more than casual observation.
It reminds me of the story of the scientist who called in his colleagues to report a scientific breakthrough. He placed two frogs on a table, facing away. He clapped his hands loudly, and shouted "JUMP." The frogs readily leaped. Then he bound one frog's legs. He clapped and shouted again, but only the unbound frog jumped. Finally he bound the other frog, and repeated the experiment, clapping and shouting even more loudly, but neither frog moved.
"You see," he intoned, "when you bind a frog's legs, he becomes deaf."
Yeah, that's about right.
Did this social "researcher" get paid through a grant from the Auto Club?
The article also conveniently forgets to mention that Detroit, one of the biggest losers in the population game, has virtually no public transit system. It is, after all, Motor City.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The article also conveniently forgets to mention that Detroit, one of the biggest losers in the population game, has virtually no public transit system. It is, after all, Motor City.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The New York Times has often in recent years been criticized for allowing opinion to seep into their news stories. This just seems like another case of it.
Of course, if some social scientist did a survey of mass transit and urban environments using only top New York Times executives as a guide, they would likely conclude that no mass transit is needed in the largest American cities, because it is not used by the people who live there.
They didn't question the study author about how he reached certain conclusions. The story lended credibility to what sounded like an off-the-cuff remark.
The link with transit was stupid. The idea that people are fleeing from the poor, and their burdens, is the real correlation.
We used to argue about this all the time at DCP when I was there. The car lovers would say that cities have declined because the preference for driving and backyards is universal. I argued that SOME people prefer that while others prefer the advantages of a city environment, with share amenities like parks and transit.
The near universal urban decline, in my view, has been driven by fiscal issues, with the burdens of the poor concentrated on those who live near them. Suburbs are attractive precisely because they use zoning to keep housing affordable to the less well off out -- even when they need them as workers. The fiscal burden on the cities is tremendous. If NYC was a separate state, it would have the second highest taxes (as a share of income) and the second lowest public school spending (also as a share of income) in the United States. THAT is what people are leaving, not mass transit.
Get a city where services have not collapsed, and were the tax burden, while high, is not so high as to offset urban advantage -- and you get people desperate to move in and housing prices through the roof (ie. Manhattan, Brownstone Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco, parts of Chicago.
You're dead right, Larry.
Here's one city that really proves your point (well, they all do):
Houston. Why Houston? Houston has the power to annex neighborhoods. Several times in the past, when a new, tony, ritzy neighborhood went up outside city limits, full of people who didn't want to contribute a nickel to those they considered "scum" in the city, Houston officials brought out new signs (OK, legislation was passed in city council etc. etc.), and one fine morning this suburban elitists wake up and find out they're back in Houston again!
Why can't New York City be given the right to annex Great Neck?
So you think New York City should be allowed to cherry pick who it could annex. It could annex Great Neck and Port Washington, Old Westbury and Oyster Bay and Massapequa Park, but maybe skip Elmont and Roosevelt and Levittown and Freeport and Hempstead?
And of course the City will be able to charge City income taxes but not slash property taxes to City norms?
And what happens when the voters from the former suburbs have the power to tip the balance to relatively conservative mayors. Remember Giuliani won the Mayoralty in the City as currently constituted. Twice.
Well, I was being somewhat facetious. Yes, annex too many conservative neighborhoods and you get a conservative administration.
Seriously though, I think, overall, NYC neighborhoods gets better public services for the taxes they pay than neighborhoods who depend on Nassau County. I lived in Oakland Gardens until very very recently (and still go back and forth a lot) and there's no way I would choose to live in Great Neck (in preference to the general area of Oakland Gardens, Bayside, Bay Terrace or Little Neck) even if I were offered a substantial tax inducement (which I wouldn't be).
So you think New York City should be allowed to cherry pick who it could annex. It could annex Great Neck and Port Washington, Old Westbury and Oyster Bay and Massapequa Park, but maybe skip Elmont and Roosevelt and Levittown and Freeport and Hempstead?
I wouldn't consider Levittown in the same category as Elmont and Roosevelt et al.
I was adding Levittown as a dense area that would generate high school and municipaal costs but wouldn't produce an income tax bonanza for the City.
(Houston. Why Houston? Houston has the power to annex neighborhoods. Several times in the past, when a new, tony, ritzy neighborhood went up outside city limits, full of people who didn't want to contribute a nickel to those they considered "scum" in the city, Houston officials brought out new signs (OK, legislation was passed in city council etc. etc.), and one fine morning this suburban elitists wake up and find out they're back in Houston again!)
There was a book several years ago that argued that successful cities annex, but the argument was a-historical. Remember, NYC annexed five counties. Sooner or later, Houston will be prevented from annexing as well.
BTW, the Manhattan Institute wants rich areas of Manhattan to be allowed to secede from Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens.
"Remember, NYC annexed five counties."
Yeah, but Nassau County was created by splitting off half of Queens.
"BTW, the Manhattan Institute wants rich areas of Manhattan to be allowed to secede from Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens"
Well, I suppose we could do the next best thing. We could allow a certain section of Manhattan to become a private association. No non-residents or renters allowed. No one without special stickers allowed to drive through the gates. All subways run express through stations in that district (to prevent slime buckets like you and me from setting foot in the district).
In return for which NYC would charge 3X the normal property tax rate, charge a maintenance fee for other services equal to 3x the income tax rate, cancel all previous tax abatements for businesses and landowners, charge a $7 toll to enter any NYC road from the district ($6 if you have EZPass), and (you fill in what you want).
That's fair, don't you think?
Don't forget redlining. That practice left would-be homeowners with no choice but suburbia.
Mark
The Times article is worse than you know.
It turns out that the Census Bureau has been missing a huge share of the apartments in older central cities for some times. We found this out when we were permitted, by new legilation, to check the address list. All cities had that chance, some did the work, some flubbed it.
Both New York and Chicago submitted tens of thousands of missed addresses. Philadelphia didn't bother. That explains some of the trends.
Larry,
Yes, NYC did pay attention to this, and thus the census count was more accurate in the end. Even if it had not been true, Glaeser draws a conclusion from data which appears to be, at best, in the category of "true and unrelated." At worst, he's written a little piece of fiction.
(Yes, NYC did pay attention to this, and thus the census count was more accurate in the end.)
New York State did little or nothing to help with the census. The people in charge of it for the state weren't given the money. The State of Georgia spent something like ten times the State of New York. The Democrats wanted adjustment, not a more accurate count up front. The Republicans wanted neither, because they figured NYC would be helped.
Most Upstate areas did not bother to review their address list, though they were begged to by the state demographer. Monroe County did, and found 13,000 missed addresses. That's perhaps 39,000 people. New York State missed saving the second congressional seat by 50,000 people.
We could also have picked up 300,000 people in NYC alone with more outreach. The City spent almost nothing as well -- City Planning got a private grant to hire a couple of people, I and other staff members pitched in. Conductors and bus operators should have been making announcements on the day the forms were delivered. All we got was a few posters, that went up a couple of weeks after New Yorkers received the forms and (in many cases) threw them away.
Good thing we did what we did. We would have been undercounted even more, and lost three seats in congress.
New York State did little or nothing to help with the census. The people in charge of it for the state weren't given the money. The State of Georgia spent something like ten times the State of New York. The Democrats wanted adjustment, not a more accurate count up front. The Republicans wanted neither, because they figured NYC would be helped.
Most Upstate areas did not bother to review their address list, though they were begged to by the state demographer. Monroe County did, and found 13,000 missed addresses. That's perhaps 39,000 people. New York State missed saving the second congressional seat by 50,000 people.
We could also have picked up 300,000 people in NYC alone with more outreach.
It boggles the mind trying to figure out why the state didn't make more of an effort. It's not as if there had been any reason for complacency. Even the most provincial New Yorkers knew that there had been a great deal of migration out of the state, mainly in the early 1990's and mainly to the Sunbelt. Things like this are simply amazing. And what's worse is the fact that there's bascially nothing that can be done.
? the useless senseless census ? i wrote on my form in big red felt pen " DROP DEAD " refused to answer any of
the stupid ass questions like i did in detroit back in 1990 and the atlanta in 1980 & turned the water hose on the enumerators!
like hell transit systems are connected wit the stupid census !! geeeezzz!!
That's a nice way to screw yourself and your neighbors (and everybody else in your city). Do you hate them that much?
Census forms did have a lot of questions on them - but really only the most basic ones needed to be answered. The rest can always be left blank.
A few thoughts on your post
A. Your right the census SHOULD have NOTHING to do with transit funding. BUT it does. This is because the federal government steels money from others.
B. Most of the questions on the census do not need to be filled out only a few should be.
C. sallam, THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU PERSONALLY. Why is it that the people who refuse to fill out even the most basic questions on the census are always the first to complain that they are under funded or under represented?
D. If someone does not pay their taxes of fill out their census form they should not be allowed to vote they should not be allowed on the subway or highways without paying the FULL cost not the one that people who obey the law pay if their house is on fire it should not be put out until it becomes a threat to other houses i and then they should be given the bill if a crime is committed against them the police should not respond and their children should not be allowed in public schools. How many tax cheats would be have then?
This morning's Post had an article about the six subway stations that it feels are in the worst state of disrepair. The stations, in no particular order, are:
- 3rd Avenue, Bronx (6)
- Smith-9th Streets, Brooklyn (F/G)
- Essex Street, Manhattan (J/M/Z)
- 191st Street/St. Nicholas Avenue, Manhattan (1)
- Roosevelt Avenue, Jackson Heights, Queens (E/F/G/R)
- 190th Street, Manhattan (A)
I have to disagree with a few of these. I think there are worse stations in the system. Essex, in particular, is not really bad at all. I think Chambers Street (J/M/Z) is much worse than any of the stations listed.
Anyone?
I have to disagree with a few of these. I think there are worse stations in the system. Essex, in particular, is not really bad at all. I think Chambers Street (J/M/Z) is much worse than any of the stations listed.
And Essex is quite interesting from a railfan's perspective, with the old trolley terminal in plain sight.
But I think the rails in the floor have been removed. Certainly the skeleton of the catenary wiring in the ceiling has been removed. Still, its fascinating, I agree.
Unless they've been removed since February, the rails remain, as does much of the wire. The rails are simply buried in the steel dust.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd say Queens Plaza looks worse than Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Heights.
:-) Andrew
I agree, Chamber should be right up there. Having water cascading from the tiles and part of the ceiling might be a good sign that there is a problem. When the hell are they going to do something about this dump????
Stillwell should be on this list yet it's supposed to be coming down. Does anybody know what the dates are for the renovations?
The tragedy about Chambers St is that at one time it must have been a really grand station. Its like an ancient ruin now. There are wires hanging from the ceiling that suggest that elegant lighting fixtures must have once been there, and the colorful tilework on the side platforms must have been really nice once.
What about Lexington Ave / 53rd Street Station ???? (E/F lines). Compare to Chambers it is worst. Also 5 Ave / 53rd Street lower level looks ugly. Do they plan to renovate these stations ??? The best thing to do it right now when there is no weekend service in that tunnel. But I think nobody cares...
How old is Chamber?
Isn't the J line through Bed-Stuy the oldest one in the system? Parts of Bed-Stuy do look like hell on earth! It's stations do not look as bad as chamber. It seems like the MTA have just let it go. Pure neglect in my book. If any stations shouls look bad; they should all be through Williamsburg and Bed-Stuy on the J.
Apparently, someone downtown agrees with at least on of those choices, since 191St on the 1 is scheduled for rebuilding in 2003.
Are there any plans to refurb the 168th street station (1/9) at any point? Talk about grand potential!
Michael B.
Lexington and 53rd on the E & F is terrible. The station looks like it was never finished. I don't know if there are plans to renovate it in the near future, but it is in awful condition.
53rd/Lex on the (E)(F) is ugly, UGLY, UGLY! However, I suspect it's not considered dirty, because I think it's considered finnished, disgusting concrete and all. They probably expect to keep it as is. Yech!
5th Ave/53rd is ugly too.
:-) Andrew
They're ugly, but they're nothing like Chambers on the BMT, which is simply falling apart.
The system was built and operated by the Bi-State Development Agency as part of a fully integrated regional transportation system.
The first 17-mile MetroLink line has 19 stations, (13 at street level, three in subways and three on bridge structures), and 31 light rail vehicles electrically powered from overhead wires, each with a comfortable capacity of approximately 178 people. About 14 miles of the light rail alignment is built on existing rail right-of-way totally renovated for the state-of-the-art light rail technology.
The initial phase operates from Lambert-St. Louis International Airport, along I-70, through the University of Missouri-St. Louis campus, along Forest Park, past Washington University Medical Center, under Union Station, through the Washington/8th Street tunnel under downtown St. Louis, across the rail deck of the historic Eads Bridge to downtown East St. Louis, Illinois.
The second 17-mile extension formally opened this weekend, extending the line eastward into Illinois with 8 additional stations, terminating at Belleville Area College. Construction is presently underway to extend the line north and east to Scott AFB. The ROW has been designated for a short extension past Scott to Mid-America Airport. The Scott extension is estimated to open in the summer of 2003. The Mid-America extension (assuming funding is obtained) is looking at 2005 or 2006. Additional cars were purchased but I forget how many.
The existing line is primarily an East-West route. A second line is in the planning stages, which will be a North-South route. This too will primarily utilize existing RR ROW. The north-south route was originally propsed with some street trackage into downtown Clayton, a wealthy suburb that's also the St. Louis County seat, where the courthouse, many large office buildings and the county administrative offices are located. This would have been perfect as white-collar types could have taken rapid transit to within a block or two of many office buildings. Of course, the NIMBY pukes blocked this so the station and street trackage was moved and will now require a quick shuttle bus ride to the CBD.
The system opened on July 31, 1993. The East Riverfront Station in Illinois and Airport Main Station at Lambert-St. Louis International Airport opened in 1994. MetroLink's Lambert Airport East Station opened in 1998.
Free rides were offered this weekend. While the original line runs through some pretty gritty urban areas, the new extension (once past East St. Louis) becomes increasingly rural, with some segments of the line passing through corn fields. At times, it feels like riding an interrurban! Travel was slow yesterday east of East St. Louis because in the afternoon a fierce thunderstorm knocked a tree down onto one of the two tracks of the new extension. Eastbound trains were held at the stations. Crews were right on it, though, and in about 20 minutes the line was passable again in both directions.
Terminal-to-terminal travel time is about 1:25...assuming no trees on the track! Large park-and-ride lots were constructed at all but one of the 8 new stations. Rush hour headway on the system is 10 minutes and non-rush hour is 17 minutes. Local busses have had their schedules changed to meet arriving trains during rush hour, both eastbound and westbound.
The primary maintenance facility and layup tracks are west of downtown St. Louis. A secondary manintenance facility w/o layup tracks was built about halfway down the new extension.
Yesterday's ride was pleasant and ridership on the new line will probably match the existing line, which is heavy. Good!
Construction is presently underway to extend the line north and east to Scott AFB. The ROW has been designated for a short extension past Scott to Mid-America Airport. The Scott extension is estimated to open in the summer of 2003. The Mid-America extension (assuming funding is obtained) is looking at 2005 or 2006.
I thought Mid-America Airport was Scott AFB, in other words a conversion of a surplus military field to commercial use.
Anyway, that was an interesting description of an often-overlooked transit system. I spent an hour or so at the St. Louis airport in 1997, waiting for a connection, and noticed a couple of Metrolink trains arriving at the airport station quite full (and leaving pretty crowded too). Unfortunately, I didn't have time to ride the system.
<< I thought Mid-America Airport was Scott AFB, in other words a conversion of a surplus military field to commercial use. >>
Scott is still a very active AFB. It's the headquarters for the Military Airlift Command. IIRC, both Scott and Mid-America share some common taxiways but have separate runways and are distinct airports.
Good write-up. This should be cut-and-pasted onto the St. Louis page of this website, since there is no system description there.
Just a few corrections and things to add:
There are two subway stations, 8th-Pine and Convention Center. Bush Stadium is at the mouth of the tunnel, but in daylight. Laclede's Landing is at the other mouth of the tunnel, inside the masonry of the anchor of the Eads Bridge. It's in daylight, too, giving really neat views of the Gateway Arch, framed by Roman-style masonry arches. There are three elevated stations: East Riverfront (on the other end of the Eads Bridge) and the two airport stations. The neatest elevated part of the ride is between the airport and North Hanley, where the track soars very high above the ground amongst the freeway overpasses. You can see trains on this section this section from the air when flying into Lambert Airport.
Neat things along the way:
Delmar station is near an old railroad station. The building looks like a WPA project, too bad it isn't used as part of the MetroLink station. The neighborhood has a lot of neat restraunts, too.
Central West End:
This is a pretty neighborhood. It's a university area, a little on the trendy side, the but architecture is pretty. Walk north and you'll get to Euclid Avenue, where there's a really cool used record store called Euclid Records, complete with clerks full of attitude straight out of the movie High-Fidelity.
Bush Stadium:
Get off here for the International Bowling Museum. If you like the movie The Big Labowski this place will give you flashbacks.
5th and Missouri:
In depressing East St. Louis, catch the 555 bus at 37 minutes past every hour to visit the ruins of another city: Cahokia Mounds. It was the largest pre-Columbian city in what is now the United States, with a peak population of about 20,000 some time in the 1200s A.D. It was very advanced judging from the artifacts. There is a celestial calender there called Woodhenge, and you can see the Gateway Arch from the top of Monk's Mound the highest of the ancient city's earthworks. I was the only passenger for most of the bus ride, and on the return trip, underneath the no smoking sign was a platisc bucket where the driver flicked his cigarette ashes.
I have ridden the Metro Link numerous times waiting for a TWA conncections. Sometimes even timed it for 4 hours or more, so I can eat at Union Station(20 minutes from Airport) ROW next to old Conrail Mainline great for train watching, also 2 stops walking distance from Casinos one in St Louis and the other in East St Louis, Does any other city have rapid transit(Lt or heavy rail or even commuter rail within wa;lking distance to a full service casino? I do not mean the Monorails in Vegas between MGM and Ballys either
You've got the St. Charles streetcar about 4-5 blocks from the riverboat casino in New Orleans.
I know what you mean. I try to fly through Atlanta just so I can ride MARTA.
At what other airports can you take a quick ride during a layover? I just want to know in case I ever pass through any such places.
Mark
At what other airports can you take a quick ride during a layover? I just want to know in case I ever pass through any such places.
Here are the ones that come to mind offhand:
Chicago - O'Hare (CTA Blue Line)
Chicago - Midway (CTA Orange Line)
Atlanta - Hartsfield (MARTA)
Washington, DC - National (Metro)
London - Heathrow (Underground - Piccadilly Line)
Chicago - O'Hare, Cincinnati, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Orlando, and Atlanta, and possibly others, also have people-mover systems which make for a fun way to kill time. O'Hare also has a funky reincarnation tunnel that connects Concourses B and C in the United terminal.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Miami's Tri-Rail (more of a commuter rail line than a subway) has it's terminal just off airport property.
While there is a shuttle bus to and from the station, I imagine it doesn't run all that frequently -- since rail service is only hourly at best. If one just wants to railfan the station and grab a picture of the equipment, you might be better off just taking the Hertz shuttle bus -- the Hertz bus runs every 3-4 minutes and the Hertz lot is right next to the station.
CG
Washington D.C.
Cleveland had the red line rapid transit underground terminal at Hopkins Airport. Hong Kong has a nice express train service to the CBD. Tokyo's Haneda airport is connected to the city via monorail.
>>> At what other airports can you take a quick ride during a layover? <<<
In Los Angeles there is a short bus shuttle to the Green Line. With a transfer to the Blue Line you could easily get to downtown and back in three hours.
Oakland has a short bus shuttle to the BART.
Frankfurt Germany has extensive commuter rail service at the airport.
Tom
The "riverboat" casinos* at Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet are within walking distance of Metra commuter rail stations.
*Riverboats in the sense that they still have to float in the water, but they don't leave the dock. Indeed, newer ones are being built without engines to leave more room for casinos and restaurants. Until a year or two ago, riverboat casinos in Illinois had to at least simulate cruising on the river by pulling up the gangplanks for an hour every two hours or something like that. Now, the pretense of "cruises" has been abandoned and people can enter and leave the boats at all times.
In Joliet, this seems to have brought a large amount of lunchtime business from clerks, attorneys, etc. at the nearby Will County courts and government offices, since there are few attractions in Joliet beyond the casino but they were afraid under the "cruise" system to be stuck on the casino boat when they had to be back at work or in court.
The "riverboat" casinos* at Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet are within walking distance of Metra commuter rail stations.
*Riverboats in the sense that they still have to float in the water, but they don't leave the dock. Indeed, newer ones are being built without engines to leave more room for casinos and restaurants.
At the risk of getting a bit off-topic, the Wall Street Journal had an interesting article about riverboat casinos a few months back. Like all casinos, the riverboat ones not infrequently find themselves the target of lawsuits, in particular when intoxicated patrons leave and get into car crashes. Choice of law then becomes a big issue. Riverboat casinos claim that they're subject to admiralty law rather than to ordinary tort law. It's apparently much more difficult for plaintiffs to win large damage awards under admiralty.
But to qualify for admiralty treatment, the casinos have to prove that they're vessels, which in some circumstances can be quite complicated. One example cited in the article was that of a riverboat casino in Shreveport, which to all intents and purposes appeared to be permanently moored in an oxbow off the Red River. Getting it underway on the river would require several months' worth of excavation and other work and would cost well over a million dollars. Yet the casino owners, faced with a huge liability claim, argued that it was a fully mobile vessel, entitled to the same legal treatment as a cruise ship or oil tanker.
No, I can't remember how the case turned out :-(
On NJT's Philly to Atlantic City line, every train arriving in AC is met by free buses to all casinos. The buses also take gamblers (or others) back to the station prior to each departing train.
I forgot to mention, that the subway stations are worht a look, too. They are part of an old freight tunnel, and the beautiful masonry arches of the old tunnel were incorporated into the modern design. See this site's St. Louis page for photos.
Mark
Nice writeup. I've only been on the Metrolink a few times, and have been quite happy with it every time.
Another Metrolink feature is the free lunchtime shuttle downtown - between 11:30 and 1:30, no charge for trips between Union Station and Laclede's Landing. I guess "office workers who want to eat lunch somewhere else" is an untapped market for mass transit, but St. Louis leads the way! :)
I though this was odd: I read that Amtrak does not use Union Station in St. Louis, but that the station for inter-city trains is located elsewhere, and that some tracks were realigned to accomodate a new Amtrak station. (NARP newsletter.) This seems sad. Is St. Louis' Union Station designated a landmark, and is it used as a stop by Metrolink at least? The newsletter was unclear.
Union Station has been reborn as a shopping mall. I'm not a big mallrat, but it's worth visiting just for the architecture.
Another good stop along the MetroLink for train watching is Grand station. It's in the middle of the Union Pacific freight ROW, and it is accessed from a large street overpass. You descend a long staircase from the middle of the bridge to get to the platform. The bridge and the staircase give great views of the MetroLink trains. I took a picture from there but my camera malfunctioned and it didn't come out!
Mark
I'm not too crazy about Washington's Union Station also being a shopping mall, but at least it still serves trains (in fact, the mall helped save the building -- I can forgive that)! The fact that not just one but 2 train stations in St. Louis have been bypassed for use by passenger trains just sticks in my craw. :O(
Al Beach wasn't the only one who built a pneumatic subway. Take a look at this New York Times article about the mail delivery system which used compressed air and tiny tubes to deliver mail all over Manhattan and to Brooklyn too. The print version of the paper has a map and graphic showing the abandoned "lines," which entrepreneurs now want to use for fiber-optic cables. There's also a picture of one of the power stations in the snail-version of the daily.
...from what I heard I thought GM bribed the post office to abandon the system in favor of GMC trucks. This article doesn't corroborate that at all.
(Mr. Stark said he found records from the early 1930's indicating that there had been at least three incidents of malfunction.)
In the article I read it said that when mail got stuck they had to dig up the streets. Still caused less congestion than a fleet of trucks.
The article also says that trucks are only slightly slower than penumatic tubes. I'd like to see them race at rush hour. ;-)
It was by pretending that he was building a mail system (several tubes in a larger tunnel) that Beach got permission to build his tunnel under Boss Tweed's nose.
Maybe that's how they should get the Second Ave. subway done -- proposing a 6 1/2 mile long mail tube and building a subway couldn't work any worse than proposing a 6 1/2 mile long subway line has so far :-)
Hmmm....
You know the new new "3rd Water Tunnel"? Anybody know the route of that?
Maybe we could let the City run water through the G Line tunnel as a trade.
I beleive the main part of the water tunnel in Manhattan runs down Amsterdam Ave. -- it might relieve crowding on the IRT 1/2/3/9 a little, but it wouldn't do anything for the east side (and those elevators down to the platforms would have to be pretty deep).
I know part of it is under LIC/Astoria in Queens. The sound technicians at Kaufman-Astoria Studios pick up the vibrations from the tunnelling when recording there. At what point does it shunt over across the East River?
Maybe that's how they should get the Second Ave. subway done -- proposing a 6 1/2 mile long mail tube and building a subway couldn't work any worse than proposing a 6 1/2 mile long subway line has so far
The original mail tubes once transported a live cat. Granted, humans are a bit larger, but use tubes with a slightly larger diameter, and you never know ...
"The original mail tubes once transported a live cat. Granted, humans are a bit larger, but use tubes with a slightly larger diameter, and you never know ..."
Isn't there a running joke on "Futurama" with pneumatic passenger tubes? I know there's an episode that includes a scene where the mayor (who I want to say was a clone of either Guiliani or Koch, but I don't recall now) dedicates a new tube and it's already congested right after opening. If that wasn't written by a New Yorker, with the 100+ year old theme of "we just opened a transit line, it's full, when's the next one coming?" I don't know what is!
The army was seriously considering pneumatic tubes during WW2 to transport soldiers in the Pacific theater when roads/trucks were not available. (!!!)
The idea was scuttled because it was feared that soldiers would suffer from claustrophobia and the bends. And also that the enemy could blow up the tubes.
See http://www.geocities.com/capsulepipelines/
(I got this from the Slashdot discussion at
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/05/07/1313252.shtml
)
From visual inspection:
- Catenary wire has been extended almost to Hoboken. When riding through Hoboken yard (approaching the terminal), LRVs testing the line can be seen for a brief instant (various grocery stores block the view at most times).
- The Long Slip will *not* be filled in.
- The elevated structure is being extended in both directions parallel to Long Slip (i.e. east/west). Preliminary preparations for track laying are taking place close to to the NJT tunnel portal.
- Several NJT buildings (sheds) have been torn down. It appears that the elevated structure will be extended to cross over the Long Slip and that the light rail terminal will be very close to the main terminal.
What will be the fate of CSX's River Line, if the HBLR is going to run through it? There isn't too much room for thee tracks down there.
-Dan
CSX has abandoned the line and is giving it to NJT in exchange for NJT paying for track, switch, and signal improvements for CSX elsewhere.
Or so they say.
Anway, if I'm right, that means that a section of the River Line will be totally unused: from Hoboken all the way to Liberty State Park. From LSP south, the light rail is already running on what used to be the River Line.
Will NJT build track on the ex-River Line from LSP to Hoboken for an express? I doubt it, but the capacity is available if they want it.
Correction: CSX has abandoned the River Line south of Weehawken.
Which surprises me a bit since when I was touring, I distinctly saw that the light rail had a separate ROW from the freight tracks somewhere near Liberty State Park.
Click here for a news article about a possible PATCO expansion in South Jersey to serve the rt. 55 corridor.
The article doesn't give a map or anything, but this is how I'd do it: as the line come northward and approaches Philadelphia, I'd have it branch into two lines. One would head into Camden and meet the PATCO line there, while the other would veer north-by-northwest and tunnel under the Delaware River to meet the Broad Street Subway at Pattison.
I don't know if this would meet the needs of anyone, but it would look cool on the map.
Mark
I wouldn't get too excited about a proposal to study the need for a Gloucester County PATCO line. This has been studied since the existing line was in the initial study phase, and will be studied for another 30 years.
The line has been reviewed and re-reviewed and may even come up as a possible extension of the Camden-Trenton light rail line. The previous thoughts to extend PATCO to Gloucester County, Mt. Laurel and northward (Burlington etc) will probably never materialize due to lack of support in South Jersey and the fear of Camden extending outward.
The federal gov't has designated certain rail corridors throughout the country for high speed rail serivce. My question is how far along are they in making these corridors suitable for high speed rail? All I've read are the proposals, but nothing on the actual construction. Are they actually going through with the plan at this time, or is there a projected start date in the future? I'm really curious about the line that goes thru Atlanta, if anyone has any info on that.
The corridors are dependent on state financial (and cultural -- good luck) support and on the cooperation of the freight railroads. All of these things are holding up progress. Also, keep in mind that the feds definition of "High Speed" is 59mph - 79mph, which is not very fast by world standards.
The other "unknown" which has everything up in the air, and this is big, is the fate of Amtrak after Dec. 22, 2002. The Amtrak Reform Council (ARC) has just issued a state-of-the-progress-of-Amtrak-in-becoming-operationally-self-sufficient-by-2003 report which calls long-distance trains frivolous and as much as recommends the dissolution of Amtrak as a "national" system. It also recommends separating infrastructure management from operations on the NEC, even though that system has failed miserably in Great Britain.
If Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) screams loud enough and is heard by enough influential legislators, by 2003, "Amtrak" as we know it may be altered considerably, with the states left to take up the mantle of passenger rail. We will witness the bickering between states over responsibility, funding, and service where the corridors are shared among them.
Of course, we all know that politics plays a HUGE part in Amtrak, with pols never wanting their district to lose its train(s), and I betcha not much will change by the 2003 deadline, except perhaps less frequent and poorer service all around. Either way, it don't look good, folks. We have a Republican government now, which likes to call rail funding a "subsidy" (but having no qualms about making railroads pay taxes on their property), while pouring my hard-earned middle-class tax money into more highways and runways for already crowded airports.
Yes, Transportation is the name of the package, and it matters not what shape the wheels are. Transportation is subsidised in all sectors, but rail seems to hurt the most. Yet rail is the most efficient, and least poluting. While it is true that the whole world, and mostly the large cities would benefit if all commuters had to take rapid transit where possible, this will not happen.
Two weeks ago, Newsweek had a feature on air congestion, and pointed a big fat finger at LaGuardia Airport, saying that delays there rippled across the whole country, and were at the root of more than 50% (or some such number, higher rather than lower) all delays nation wide.
Be that as it may, there is not enough realestate at LaGuardia for one more *Parking Space* let alone a whole new runway or gate system. If mor capacity is needed at LaGuardia, all one really needs to do is to end all flights between New York City and the cities of Boston, Philidelphia, Baltimore, and Washington. These passengers should ride on Amtrak. Acella trainsets *could* run every 30 or even 15 minutes. And I suspect it will cost less to buy these trainsets then to build runways.
Legislators, be they Republican or Democrat need to look at transportaion as a whole picutre, or the people will be the ones left out of the picture.
Elias
agree with you. We have the technical means to build an additional runway further out in Flushing Bay (similar to how Narita Airport in Tokyo was built) but, depending on its orientation, it could be affected by intrusion into glideslope by Manhattan's tall buildings, as well as structures in Queens. More importantly, the required political support to build it would not be there. In this particular case, nearly everyone would have justifiable reasons to oppose it, so "NIMBY" as a perjorative term would not apply.
"Are they actually going through with the plan at this time, or is there a projected start date in the future?"
With regards to the FRA "high-speed corridors", one must recall that:
1) "high speed" means speed limits like 90 or 110mph, not speeds like the TGV or Shinkansen (sp?), or even Acela at its fastest.
2) many rail lines used by Amtrak in the Midwest and West are already cleared -- and used -- for speeds of 70 or 79 mph.
3) the main factors keeping these lines from the FRA clearing them for 90 or 110mph is NOT curves, lack of complete double tracking, etc. but cab signals and grade crossings. Many hundreds of miles of 79mph track can be made into 110mph line by simply installing a cab signaling system and neutralizing grade crossings by closing them, replacing them with over or underpasses, or installing four-quadrant gates. Extending sidings and double-track stretches is helpful but not essential.
Therefore, the money spent by most states on grade crossing improvements, financed partially by federal highway (not Amtrak or FRA) money, assists the high-speed corridor program even though its not budgeted that way. Even states without pro-rail policies see grade crossing elimination or improvement as a needed highway safety program.
For example, North Carolina, both to cut down on crossing deaths and as part of the Southeast High-Speed Rail plan, has closed or improved literally dozens of grade crossings. http://www.bytrain.org/news/default.html
That said, the main work on the actual rail corridors that is occuring outside the Northeast and Empire corridors include:
*Midwest, where signaling, crossing and track work on the Chicago-Detroit line is essentially complete. Several minutes were knocked off all Chicago-Detroit Amtrak schedules at the April 29th change in anticipation of 90mph and then 110mph clearance from the FRA once the improvements are tested in service. Work is beginning on the improvements to the Chicago-Saint Louis line. The last Amtrak timetable change juggled the schedules of all the CHI-STL trains, including the Texas Eagle, to make traffic-free work "windows" for the track crews. Midwest corridor service from Chicago to Detroit, Saint Louis, and Madison via Milwaukee is scheduled to begin in 2003, and Amtrak has already requested bids for the initial non-electric 110mph trainsets. (So far, Talgo has made its "Lakeliner" bid.)
*California has too many double-track, siding lenghtening, station, tunnel, etc. projects to count here.
2) many rail lines used by Amtrak in the Midwest and West are already cleared -- and used -- for speeds of 70 or 79 mph.
79mph is class 5 track. Track classes depend on all types of standards like ballasting, ties, guage, rail weight, etc, etc. Class 5 is your typical main line track w/ automatic block signals. Most mainline US tracks can meet this standard.
) the main factors keeping these lines from the FRA clearing them for 90 or 110mph is NOT curves, lack of complete double tracking, etc. but cab signals and grade crossings.
90 mph is class 6 track. The big differance b/t 5 and 6 is the requirement of ATS (not necessarily ATC). The Santa Fe RR's line from Chicago to LA? was and still might be class 6 due to the instalation of intermittant ATS (akin to trip arms). Grade crossings don't really have a bearing on track class although it might require speed restrictions in built up areas.
Basically, a "federal high speed rail corridor" is any route Amtrak runs on. I'm not kidding - if you look at the federally designated routes, and overlay it with Amtrak's current routes, it's almost all of amtrak.
It's a cute political slight of hand, but it really mean nothing. Beswides, the feds have no real definition of high speed rail, and 70 - 110 mph isn't high speed anyway.
From where was this photo taken?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
It was taken from the foot of 65 St (give or take a block a two) in the former LIRR yard (I forget who's supposed to be operating it now - probably NY & Atlantic) on the Brooklyn waterfront. Give me aharder one.
I think you're close if not right on. Depth perception can be a little deceiving. I'll guess the SBK yard at 39 St.
Isn't there some kind of trolley museum in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn? Manhattan looks awfully close in that picture. That's my second guess.
My guess would be the Rockways.
How could it then have an uninterrupted view across water to Manhattan, with a clear line of sight up the Hudson?
Much too close to the Manhattan skyline. This is somewhere in Brooklyn.
Oh no, it is not the Rockaways, Manhattan is far too close!
I might have guessed the Willy B bridge, but then where are the other bridges. Well where ever the other bridges went to they are to the north of this photo. So Brooklyn!
Of course I *know* were the shot was taken, for I copied it to PhotoShop to adjust the contrast and stuff....
And well.... there was your photo name.... so it is....
WELL IF YOU THINK I'M GOING TO GIVE IT AWAY, YOU'RE NUTS!
Elias : )
It must be near the Bush Terminal Wearhouse in Brooklyn. It has to be Brooklyn.
It must be near the Bush Terminal Wearhouse in Brooklyn. It has to be Brooklyn.
Or Staten Island.
Wrong angle for Staten Island.
I think Alex L. had it right....I checked oldnyc.com and they have a similar shot from the 65 St terminal. Not only a similar angle to the WTC, but the switches are identical as well.
New York and Atlantic Railway 65th St. Yard http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/nya/65/65.html.....I found the answer...
Very good, you found my new web page. 65th St. Yard it is.
-Dan
Its the same shot.
Obviously, it's the Federal Government's secret railroad on Governor's Island.
I didn't know a railroad existed on Governor's Island. Given the picture's perspective, you'd probably be right, as both the 39th St. and 65th St. terminals would all be too far south for this picture to be accurate, with the World Trade Center to appear.
I have an excellent view of this entire area from my workplace at 2 WTC, so I'll check it out tomorrow.
How would he get to Governor's Island. The angle is perfect for the 65th Street Yard, and I figured it out right away. Yet Alex L was first.
Interestingly enough, he was first, and right, and there were still doubts.
Thanks to Elias's tip, I looked at the file name. There is no doubt as to its location because DaWheelFlange was a little too careless!
Interestingly enough, I did the same thing, - but couldn't see the point in mentioning it - but only because I couldn't decide between the former LIRR yard or the Cross Harbor Yard.
the real question in this sub-thread is how could it be taken from Governor's Island if the island itself is in the picture?
So take your camera with you and give us a shot from your office window! (Bring the zoom!)
John.
All you need to know is the layout of lower Manhattan and the Upper Bay area.
This looks like the edge of the 65th Street Yard just before the float bridge dock.
However, I'm alittle leery of saying that 100%, because the Manhattan skyline looks SO close to the scene. The only other thing I could think of is that these tracks are somewhere in Red Hook near the piers.
BMTman
My guess, based on the angle to the west side, its either on Ellis or Liberty Islands. Of course, I could be all wet. (LOL)
Perhaps Governor's Island as well?
Governor's Island is in the picture.
It could not be, it's facing the wrong way. How could you claim angles when you have failed to use them so miserably?
The angle looks all wrong to me be Bay Ridge, and it seems to evoke memories of 39th Street Ferry Terminal, so I'm going to guess SBK near the water's edge.
I'm guessing the photo was taken from some train tracks by a beach
There are no beaches on the Upper Bay.
Today while I was working at Coney Island Yard, I saw a set of R68's the new destion sign in it. The wording was centered as oppested to flush to the right. The inside I think was also centered. The one car # I got was 2768. Dose anyone know about any more R68's with these sign.
Robert
All R-68s are getting new signs and the fleet will be completely retrofitted by 7/01/01.........
What do they do with the old signs? Any possibility of getting ahold of one legally? Thanks.
subfan
They might sell them one day at the Shops.
Robert
Some maybe. But on Fri. I saw a bunch in a can of trash in CI yard between track 34 and 36 (where 35 would be), at the SW corner of the shop (36 is he first track of the shop, while 34 continues outside to the wheel truer) by the driveway that passes the entrance gates to the shop. I don't know if it was emptied since then.
If you work in the system, you should have no problem, but I would still ask.
I've been out of the city for about 7 months. Why are the 68's getting new signs. Are there new destinations. Living upstate will make one forget things!
B61 Leonard
This has been beaten to death on the board already. Because of the flip flop of the Manhattan bridge there is a new terminal at 34th Street and 6th Ave. R68 current rollsigns do not contain that as a destination.
Thank you very much!
B61 Leonard
Does anyone have a current updated listing
Thank you
Steve
I e-mailed the complete 'zipfile' several weeks ago. If you want it, E mail me.
You can also visit my rollsign page at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/rollsign/r68-side/index.html
I am going to see if they are there tomorrow.
Robert
"All R-68s are getting new signs and the fleet will be completely retrofitted by 7/01/01.........(Train Dude)
Okay T.D. now the following questions.
1) I assume that includes the missing signs/boxes on the Franklin Shuttle R-68s ?
2) Does this include front route (bullet) sign ?
3) All R-68s included ? R-68/68-1/68A ?
Bill "Newkirk"
1) I assume that includes the missing signs/boxes on the Franklin Shuttle R-68s ?
Those cars are staying on the shuttle, and will always have the samer destinations, so those won't be changed. The "missing" boxes taken from them are probably being stored somewhere as spares.
They were put on others who are missing their rollsigns.
2) Does this include front route (bullet) sign ?
Most likely.
3) All R-68s included ? R-68/68-1/68A ?
Yup. They're all gonna get a new set of rollsigns.
Now there's no excuse.
W reminds me of George Bush.
They probably went woth W because if some signs ar not replaced after the change, they already have W (albeit in a diamond only), but not T. The R-40 rollsigns are getting pasteovers for the diamond Q, but if one should be placed in service on the West End, it too already has W but not T. And it wouldn't run there enough for them to paste on T's, which would probably have been too much trouble anyway.
I as much as anyone would have liked to see them use "T", because I like the idea of one letter reprresenting one line, and now the Broadway-West End Express has two letters associated with it (a waste). But at least they got rid of that split B & D designation. That was the worst.
[W reminds me of George Bush.]
Well, I'm not too fond of the guy, either, but the fact is that W has been on rollsigns for a long time, albeit unused. That means before George Bush, the First was elected President (or maybe during his presidency).
I like the "W". "T" was only in use for the West End for a few years, and I like a letter that has some connection with a traditional line name.
Also, I think the fact that they're not doing the split B/D this time around. However, maybe it also indicates that they're expecting the South Side to be the Only Side for a long, long time.
They also don't want to get into any ADA trouble with a poorly-sighted person not being able to dinstingish an Orange from a Yellow B & D.
2548-2551 have 'em as well. Not sure if they changed the letter too, since one sign had the larger font D while another had the smaller font D.
On the ones I've seen, the route signs were not changed. (You can even still see the badly faded "D" on somf of the 2500's)
Alright. Let's stop all these myths about the r-68's once and for all.
1. R-68's are super slow .
R-68's may have slightly worse acceleration than other cars. However, they are hardly slow. Can you run 40mph? Can you sustain running 25mph for 2 minutes? R-68's are more than fast enough to get the job done. Do you see R-44's doing 80? They were speed tested at that velocity on the LIRR. On Sea Beach, they got up to 75. But, have you ever been on an R-44 that fast? No, speed restrictions kept that from happening. R-68's could be faster. But again, those governors stop them.
But what if we purchased a train car with ridiculously high torque? Then we'd have trains in the shop with bad brakes due to stopping rather suddenly. The subway has sharp turns. No need for fast trains in here.
2. R-68's should serve locals.
By this method of reasoning, the R-68's should be on the G, C, M, and other local lines. They're slow, so might as well make them slower. The TA doesn't care about speed. They care about reliability. Expresses generally are more heavily used than locals (A/C, B/M, D/B, etc.) Thus, you want them to be the most reliable cars that you have. The R-68's are the most reliable cars around, especially those at consourse.
3. R-68's are slower due to their weight.
May be true. But, if this were so, after rolling down a hill, the R-68's would have built up more speed. So then, that weight thing would be an advantage in the tunnels, now wouldn't it (NOTE: velocity is independant of gravity).
You'd think that the R-68's were old rusty cars by the way some people hate them (redbirds). Actually hippos is a fitting title. Fairly fast creatures with the power to tear apart humans in a single bite. R-68's are fairly fast too, with big bulk and power to carry commuters to work. This isn't the MFing LIRR. Do 70 in the subway and you'll be paying for it.
SLOW BECAUSE OF THEIR WEIGHT!!!!!??? Triplexes, which I KNOW must weigh more than R68s, can hit 70! I was on one on a fantrip that hit 70. Granted, the motors may have been modified, but still.
R68s still suck. As do all 75 footers. R38s are kings. R32s, 40s, 42s are next best, in order from best to worst. The R44s and 46s should be turned into toaster ovens.
The R62s on the IRT are cool except for the "SEATS OF THE DEVIL AND ALL HIS MINIONS THAT WALK THE DEPTHS OF HELL IN THE DEEPEST, DARKEST CORNERS," and the fact that they have full length cabs eliminating the front view.
>>SLOW BECAUSE OF THEIR WEIGHT!!!!!??? Triplexes, which I KNOW must weigh more than R68s, can hit 70! I was on one on a fantrip that hit 70. Granted, the motors may have been modified, but still.<<
Key word: Fantrip. I could have swore that I said that R-44's went up to 80. In the regular stop and go of the subway, (plus reduced hp) R-68's can only hit 45.
>>R68s still suck. As do all 75 footers. R38s are kings. R32s, 40s, 42s are next best, in order from best to worst. The R44s and 46s should be turned into toaster ovens.<<
What good proof. R-68's still suck. 75' cars carry more people. They are also on some of the most important lines (A,B,D,F,E,R). R-38's suck. They ride rough, and are loud. R-40M/S have terrible seats, and once again ride rough. R-42's are ok. R-32's are the best car as far as building quality. They will be around after the R-42's. After most of the redbirds. THESE are good cars. The R-44's/46's are good cars after their rebuild. I just think that you like railfan windows. R-38's really are trash.
The R-32 will even outlast the R-44, or at least will be retired at the same time.
R32 is going to outlast virtually every piece of rolling stock currently in service. It will be retired about the time of the R143 IIRC.
This is a joke..... right?
It will be retired about the time of the R143 IIRC.
If you RECALL correctly? I'd like to take a trip on that time machine of yours.
It is interesting to note that SF's BART trains, when they travel under the Bay, travel at 45 mph (I saw the speedometer).
"It is interesting to note that SF's BART trains, when they travel under the Bay, travel at 45 mph (I saw the speedometer)."
Hi there Ron!
I worked for BART for over 26 years on on-board ATC equipment, and on the wayside train control and multiplex systems; as well as the communication systems and in building the Colma, Bay point and Dublin/Pleasanton Extensions.
The MAXIMUM Civil speed allowed for any BART train anywhere in the system (with the possible exception of the Hayward Test Track) is 80 MPH. There are seven full speeds: 6, 18, 27, 36, 50, 70, 80 MPH. The eighth speed is 0 (ZERO), this is a transmitted code, however, the default speed is 0 (ZERO) MPH (STOP) and loss of reception of the transmitted code or an invalid code results in a forced 0 (ZERO) being forced by the on board ATC. There are two (2) ATC sets on at all times (A,B) and they must agree on the received code - if they don't, a SAFETY TERMINATION is set forcing an irretrevable STOP!
The 7 FULL speeds are modified by Performance Level commands, PL1 thru PL6. For 80 MPH, PL1 is 80 MPH, PL2 is 72 MPH with full accelleration, PL3 is 72 MPH with half accelleration, PL4 is 60 MPH with full accelleration, PL5 is 60 with half accelleration , and PL6 is 44 MPH with half accelleration. Similar effects take place for all speed commands (6,18,27,36,50,70). Note that these will just SLOW you down, the greater effect coming from the half accelleration commands. The NORMAL PL command is PL2, meaning that the maximum speed will be 72 MPH.
A Further restriction comes when a consist has a car or cars with Friction Brakes cut out, this can automatically FORCE, a REDUCED speed mode depending on the number of cars with no friction brakes. You could either run FULL speed (modified only by PL's) or REDUCED Speed (modified by PL's and further slowed again by the REDUCED mode input) or HALF speed (40 MPH MAX, and every corresponding speed command halved - even 6 MPH). But note operation is still ATC. Should the number of cars exceed the programmed limits, it means a manual mode move (25 MPH MAX - with run orders) either to a nearby yard or a pocket until after rush hours (evenings).
If you rode COMPLETELY through the Transbay Tube or the Berkely Hills Tunnel and NEVER exceeded 45 MPH, there was either severe congestion ahead (possibly an incident train downline) OR your train was ahead of schedule, or it had a problem that still allwed it to run in ATC.
The normal program is to leave Embarcadero with a 36 (platform) then jump to a brief 50, then 70, then 80 thru the tube until just before the exit (a vent structure) then slow to 70, then exit the tube onto the aerial, then slow to 50, then 36 for entry into West Oakland
Westbound you leave West Oakland with a 36 (platform) thru the interlocking, then increase to 50 all the way into the tube, until just past the vent structure, then jump to 80 thru the tube until just before the slight bend, then 50 for a bit then 36 for the approach and entry to the platform at Embarcadero. Throughout downtown SF you do not ever exceed 36 MPH, in many cases it is 27.
Oh yes, as you look into tha cab of a BART train (easier on a C1 or C2 car than an A1 car with the sloped end) there are two lighted displays; the RED one is the COMMANDED SPEED (displays the MAXIMUM FULL, REDUCED OR HALF SPEED; and is NOT affected by PL commands), the GREEN one is the actual speedometer speed. These displays are driven by a console which is an integral part of the ATC. The console has all of these displays and MUCH more; but only is viewable by the operator of the train.
Any questions.....give a yell!
Frank
Hey, for the first time, I can honestly say, I was on a speeding R-68!! It was on the B-line speeding under 4th Avenue. What a thrill!! If only the 4 and 5's could speed under Lexington Ave like that as they used to when I was a kid in the '70's. Wouldn't it be nice to have expresses that weren't outrun by locals!!! Tony
SLOW BECAUSE OF THEIR WEIGHT!!!!!??? Triplexes, which I KNOW must weigh more than R68s, can hit 70! I was on one on a fantrip that hit 70. Granted, the motors may have been modified, but still.
A Triplex was LONGER too. It also had more axles. While it had only one motor per axle it was a 142 KW* motor instead of an 86 KW* motor, which had field shunting enabled.
Now I highly doubt that it hit 70. You are a LIAR! the noise probably made you think it hit 70. That's what makes the R-68s feel slow. They are quiet. The R-68 can hit the same speeds as another train. It might take a little longer to get there on straight or uphill track, but that is irrelevant on a fantrip that hardly ever stops. This also makes the R-68 a BETTER express train.
R68s still suck. As do all 75 footers. R38s are kings. R32s, 40s, 42s are next best, in order from best to worst.
R-38s better than R-32? R-38 is just another piece of shit from ST. LOUIS CRAP COMPANY. NOTHING BEATS A GREAT TRAIN FROM BUDD!
*Horsepower is the stupid, most contrived unit of measurement in existence. I will use feet, pounds, BTUs or even degrees fahrenheit, but I REFUSE to use whorepower.
PS: KW, KJ/s, BTU/s are all units of work = energy/time.
Feet, pounds, Degrees Fahrenheit dont cut it.
Of the above, KW probably makes the most sense.
John.
A kW is a kJ/sec, and both are units of power. So is a score-slug-cubit-foot per second per fortnight squared.
Work (energy) is the integral of power.
Watt's a score-slug-cubit-foot? Thanks to a very weird Physics teacher, I've gotten wawy with using furlongs per fortnight as a measure of velocity, but this one is new to me.
Watt's a score-slug-cubit-foot? Thanks to a very weird Physics teacher, I've gotten away with using furlongs per fortnight as a measure of velocity, but this one is new to me.
Watt's a score-slug-cubit-foot? Not a very useful unit of measurement.
Thanks to a very weird Physics teacher, Ive gotten away with using furlongs per fortnight as a measure of velocity. I hope not: its a measurement of speed: velocity is a vector quantity, it has a direction associated with it.
John.
BTW: Congratulations on knowing what a forthight is. A unit of measurement almost unknown in the US! (For those who would know, fortnight = two weeks)
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
You are correct: I should have titled my response, Units of Power.
I was talking about non-metric units in general, regardless of property.
And Watts and Whore's Power are units of POWER
Perhaps you could be the person to persuade the US that its time to abandon the imperial system in favor of the metric system.
Best of luck!
John.
Work-Energy is Force * Distance. Power is Energy-Work/Second.
A Joule or Footpound are units of work.
Actually a foot-pound is a unit of torque. A pound-foot is the
seemingly equivalent unit of work.
No, you have that backwards. Watch a car commercial or or read a small arms book (muzzle energy is in fp's).
You are right, I transposed the two.
Actually a foot-pound is a unit of torque. A pound-foot is the
seemingly equivalent unit of work.
We use the two interchangeably on the second floor of 51 Astor Place.
Foot-pounds and pound-feet are completely interchangable. Note that you have to multiply two quantities (force*distance) to get work, and since multiplication is commutative, thus so are the units.
Torque and work have the same units. Torque refers to rotational work, while work is linear. In the metric system, Joules and Newton-meters are the same thing, but "Nm" are reserved for torque measurements and "J" are reserved for pretty much everything else.
A different opinion:
I dont care that the R68 is slow. I personally am interested in the track, switches, possible connections, bellmouths etc on the subway, and its much better for me if they dont go flying by.
I do care that the R68s have the full-width cab and the window into it is usually papered over, or otherwise modified so that the railfan cant see out the front.
John.
[I dont care that the R68 is slow. I personally am interested in the track, switches, possible connections, bellmouths etc on the subway, and its much better for me if they dont go flying by.]
To me there is no reason why the TA can't run their car 50 or more on express & local long stretches ... if you're going to take mass transit, you want the mode of transportation to be faster then walking.
The lack of a railfan window wouldn't be so important to me if I used the R-68 to get to work every day, so the MTBF would be more important. Thanks in part to the Hippo Ring Master a.k.a. Train Dude, in the Bronx yard, their MBTF is high.
Mr t__:^)
I know many people including me have said derogatory things about the R-68s and the R-68As. I know that people have called them "Hippos" because of their apparent slow performance. The most important thing about a subway car is that it gets you there safely and you can depend upon it to work. Most of the time that is all I care about from a subway car.
BMTJeff
Now Jeff be honest, some of us know you better then others :-)
Seriously, if you are speaking as a commuter, you are right of course, but as a casual rider if prefer to avoid the Hipps & Rinos when ever I can.
Mr t__:^)
While I admire the hippos for the mechanical reliability and even their looks, they are demons from a railfan point of view. Try as many have to explain their sluggishness, the mere fact that the R68 is slow cannot be disputed.
Through the 1960's, the R16 was still fairly reliable (except when it snowed) were kind of slow, but people hated them for it.
Yeah, but from what I hear, the R-16's became total peices of trash by the mid 70's.
Weight and low BMT voltage probably led to the R16 being "slow". With the R68, it has more to due with design. If the R16 received the TLC the R68's have gotten from the day they first went into service they still might be running today.
Through the 1960's, the R16 was still fairly reliable (except when it snowed)
What was the problem with snow?
They shorted out the door motors. The GE (6400's) were very tempermental as well with fine snow and salt air on the Rockaways.
It was for that reason the R-16s were put on the Canarsie line when a snowstorm was bearing down on Brooklyn, and BMT standards covered the Myrtle-Chambers and Jamaica lines.
>>...the mere fact that the R68 is slow cannot be disputed....<<
What are you talking about? In can indeed be disputed, and it has been on this here board many times. For one, 5mph is not a huge difference. So, if an R-40 can go 50, (I doubt this) than it's 5mph faster than an R-68. Plus, I never knew that 40mph was slow. Last, timers limit the speed of ALL trains, Redbirds and R-68's alike. The thought that R-68's are slow is a pure myth. Look at this: G (R-46) and A (R-44) trains Leave Hoyt Schermerhorn at the same time (Nthbnd.) The A actually starts a second before the G, but by the time they are exiting the station, the G is blazing the A (Neither of which are cinstricted by timers). Then, As we approach the gaps in the wall just before Fulton St, that A is blowing by us, before we slow down at all. Does this mean that R-44's have poorer acceleration and Higher top speed? No. Similarly, all this 'visual proof' that people continue to post here is totally invalid. The FACTS that Train Dude posts here are more accurate, and they reflect how fast trains really are.
What's even sadder is the fact that the beloved R-40 has a 10 degree slant, making them more aerodynamic than any other subway car and they still are minimally faster than the heavy R-68's (true, weight is independant of speed, but more weight means more friction, thus slower speeds). So there. All you slant lovers can che on that little fact for a while.
"What's even sadder is the fact that the beloved R-40 has a 10 degree slant, making them more aerodynamic than any other subway car and they still are minimally faster than the heavy R-68's (true, weight is independant of speed, but more weight means more friction, thus slower speeds)."
Aerodynamic ? -- with all that gaggle of railings on the sloped ends ?
The slants are not the most aerodynamic car ends, as they have flat surfaces which create incredible drag. The R42 and up cars, with their smooth curved surfaces are much better.
What are you saying? That slanted edges are poorer at letting air go by than flat ones? The R-42's 'rounded' edge is hardly more aerodynamic than the R-40. True, the R-40 may have the door set in, but so does the R-42. And, those gates on the front of the R-40's hardly make a big deal at the speeds of subway cars. I don't know what you are thinking about, but a 10 degree slant is MUCH more aerodynamic than that small curve of the R-42's. Further, I compared it to the R-68's didn't I?
As for all this other crap that people continue to post about the R-68's slowness, I just disproved it, and people continue to post ideas that basically say: R-68's are slower because I said so. That whole R-68's are 3-4 minutes slower than R-32's on the N is purely a lie. If it was a whole 3-4 minutes the TA was losing, they'd change that. Otherwise if there was any other deyal of any sort, then N's would be backed up on each other.
If the R-68 is losing time to the R-32s and R-40s it's because of acceleration only in a very small part. Delays are probably due to increased dwell time due to fewer doors per train, but again that would only add a second or two per station.
Dan
The R68's main problem is in the acceleration. Take careful note of a slight cut out of speed during that critical acceleration period. It is almost like the poor performance in the early R44 days. They'd reach a certain speed, then drop and hold. Time and time again, two trains could be sitting side by side at a station. The R68 will start out first, get a slight edge but will always lag behind. Happens on the Concourse, happens on 6th ave.
Now, for some strange crazy reason, I'm starting to like the darn things. Two dreams in one week, riding "fast" R68's, R68's with straight sides and new roof top headlights like the MU cars have now.
Plus the MTA seems to be scrubbing them as their appearance is much brighter than they used to be. But what about these grinding, whining noises?
For the last time:
R-68's acceleration is slower than other cars, but not by a whole lot.
The R-68 trucks are equipped with 'Westinghouse' 115 HP motors. It seems kinda inefficient to move a 90,400 Pound Car (Empty) with......what is it? 2 or 4 115 HP motors (230-460 HP), I forget how many motors there are per car. But If it is 460 HP maybe thats why pick-up maybe slow.
This has been stated before. You are right, 460hp is somewhat low for the R68's, but it isn't making them super-slow, as the whole hippo crowd would have you believe.
Oh boy, hippo lovers drive me nuts. Thousands of people use the hippos and they sure know that they are slower. My boss lives in Astoria and he says that R32 and R40 N trains get to Cortland St. from Ditmars 3-4 minutes faster. And yes, this can be explained, partially by the 32/40 door argument.
It stands to reason that trains of 10 60-footers load faster than trains of 8 75-footers, since the 10-car train has 8 more door openings per side. However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the speed of the trains as they move between stations, which is what this argument is all about. Moreover, the speed of the trains as they move between stations is based not only on horsepower (archaic term though it may be--let's not get into THAT argument again!), weight, gear ratio, speed restrictions in various locations, etc., but also on the operating practices of the various Train Operators. A train of R-68s being operated aggressively will run faster than a train of R-40s being operated passively over the same stretch of track, and a train of each being operated similarly over the same stretch of track will reach virtually the same top speed, though it may take longer for the R-68 to reach that speed due to its gear ratio and weight.
David
Overall running time is what's important, however they do it.
It seems the Hippos take longer to accelerate than anything since the R16 and have the ingress/degress deficiency of a 75 footer as well. No wonder they can no longer accomodate an M (or QJ) on the Brighton Line. Let's hope they never run on the E or F. That will be the end of the Queens IND as we know it.
Yes, the R68 is incredibly sluggish, rarely getting up to speed outside of long express runs. Whatever arguments that are made to say the R68 isn't slow should be thrown out as rubbish. As they are run today, they are %!$@#!& slow. No doubt about it.
The R-68s are often referred to as the "Hippos" since they are big lumbering beasts. But they do get you there though rather slowly.
BMTJeff
But real hippos are agile, nimble beasts that can take down any birds.
OK, how about using the term "beached whale" for the R68?
Yup, comfortably and reliably. No doubt about that. Their sluggishness has no bearing on their success as subway cars. Overall, I still like them.
Oh yes the R68 and R68A are very attractive and very comfortable subway cars. They have a uniformly smooth ride and are fairly quiet.
But when you're a "B" train labouring along in the express track and along comes an "R" train to dust you, that's embarrassing. I will take a Slant any day over the R68 just for the thrill factor and railfan window, and I am not being critical of the R68 or R68A, it just is what it is - functional.
wayne
Over the last week, I ran a little test working with R68 cars. After making connections at various stations with various equipment, I timed their start from the gate to mine by timing their airbrake release and power accordingly. With the disclaimer that I can't verify dead motors on adjacent equipment and slow releasing brakes, I found the following:
1) Pacific St with Brooklyn bound R40M cars, mere difference of 2 MPH at top end speed entering Union St. That is a generous calculation, as I got it from mathconnect. The train was passing me by two feet per second. This site puts it at a 1.33 MPH difference.
2) 42nd/6AV southbound with a comparibly heavy car, the R46, like the R40 also equipped with the GE SCM package. The R46 is somewhat faster at top end but not noticibly in the initial takeoff. Also here, there are switches, rail gaps and grades all which effect the Hippo question.
3) The R143, on Friday, being towed by SBK. The Hippo won hands down!
R40M = same as regular R40, correct?
wayne
Yes, only difference is the slants are MODIFIED with bulbous ends.
I am sure the R40Ms pre GOH were duplicates with propulsion and HVAC.
they certainly LOOKED like the regular R40 inside except at the "A" end they had the different (R42-style) storm door (with the slightly higher, smaller window).
wayne
T/O's I've had casual chats with are favourable towards the Slants; and I've rarely seen a passively-operated Slant; whether on the "L", "N", "Q" or "B". I guess they're just more fun to drive.
I never got over that one mad dash on the n/b "Q" where (north motor: #4314) we passed not one, not two, but THREE lumbering "D"s between Brighton Beach and Prospect-Park.
/wayne\
Doesn't matter to me; a Slant will dust any R68 any time any place.
wayne
Do 70 in the subway and you'll be paying for it.
Yep, paying $1.60 to ride the SEPTA Broad Street Line, where a train operator said that "They don't let us go faster than 70", and normal speds go up to 65. There is absolutly no reason for subway trains to go 30 when they can be going twice as fast. And it is not just the R68's that are slow, they took oout the field shunting from every car. The 80mph on the LIRR was achived with motors and control equipment which is entirely different from what the R44's have today.
Even in the original BMT plans, the travel time from city hall to coney island was supposed to be 30 minutes, half as long as it is now, thus making Coney Island farther away than White Plains. This is ridiculous. After all, isn't this supposed to be RAPID TRANSIT?!?!
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
May 12, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!
SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. This is our first chat. Subsequent chats may be held depending on this week's success. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic. Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! Instructions for mIRC users will be posted at a later date.NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
In this weekend's NY Times, there was an article about one of the people who plans for G.O.s. They showed a map detailing a G.O. The G.O. knocked out the northbound tracks at Jay St., because they were working on the switch. That on switch did the following to trains:
A: From 207th st. to Jay st (using the south bound tracks and then the scissor after the switch under construction to go back north). 10/20 minute headways.
Asouth: From Far rockaway or lefferts Blvd. to Utica Av. (shuttle connects services)
B local service on 4th av. (mentioned for F passengers)
C suspended
E local on Queens Plaza
F local on queens plaza. Southbound trains run normal. Northbound, trains use G line from Bergen to Queens Plaza
Fshort: From 179th st to Essex, local (mainly so people in manhattan on 6th av can have N/B service).
G: On Monday the trains run to 71st. beginning at 2am.
L: mentioned for N/B F passengers
R: suspended in Queens. A shuttle is mentioned, but the map provided for planning shows nothing of it. I assume it is between 42nd st Times Sq. and 95th St. Bklyn.
Additionally, there is a shuttle bus between Jay st and Hoyt/Schermerhorn
All of this for a measly switch. This is shameful. There is a much better way to run things. The A (south) should have been able to run to Layafette and then use the spur to get back over. The C should have had manhattan service. (the B is still running to 21st.) F and E should have contnued to run express, and the R should have kept it's normal service plans. The only thing done right was the F.
There are a lot of times where the service patterns are needlessly screwed up. With creative use of single tracking (somewhat risky, but if used properly, it's very effective on weekends and nights) many G.O.s can become much easier on passengers. Plus, you can run some trains short, and this way you have a way of avoiding total re-routes (namely the F going thru bklyn.)
The service changes you're listing are due to more than one GO; They just happen to be running at the same time. Switch work at Jay St has absolutely no effect on Queens Blvd or Brooklyn 4th Ave services. The E and F running local in Queens implies work being done on the express tracks. Rather than overload the merge onto the local track, R service gets suspended and only runs as a shuttle between 95 St and 36 St. To make up for the loss of local R service on 4 Ave, B trains will run local between 36 St and DeKalb (It's possible that 4th Ave service changes are due to another GO, also).
As for your idea: If the switch north of Jay St on B2/A4 tracks is removed from service, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to run A service from Utica Ave to north of Jay St, with one exception: to single track from Jay St to East New York (with a 12 minute run time, that makes 24 minute minimum headway). If the C had Manhattan service, where would you turn it? Do really want to run Es and Cs out of WTC?
The service changes you're listing are due to more than one GO; They just happen to be running at the same time. Switch work at Jay St has absolutely no effect on Queens Blvd or Brooklyn 4th Ave
services. The E and F running local in Queens implies work being done on the express tracks. Rather than overload the merge onto the local track, R service gets suspended and only runs as a shuttle
between 95 St and 36 St. To make up for the loss of local R service on 4 Ave, B trains will run local between 36 St and DeKalb (It's possible that 4th Ave service changes are due to another GO, also).
As for your idea: If the switch north of Jay St on B2/A4 tracks is removed from service, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to run A service from Utica Ave to north of Jay St, with one exception: to single
track from Jay St to East New York (with a 16 minute run time, that makes a 32 minute minimum headway) (forgot it had to be on a local track). If the C had Manhattan service, where would you turn it? Do really want to run Es and Cs out
of WTC?
If the switch north of Jay St on B2/A4 tracks is removed from service, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to run A service from Utica Ave to north of Jay St, with one exception: to single track from Jay St to East New York ...
There are less disruptive ways, if direction changes with an additional T/O are permitted.
Do really want to run Es and Cs out of WTC?
The weekend headway is more than twice the rush hour headway. The E and C could both use at Hudson Terminal. They could also use 2nd Ave, should NYCT not want to expose the public to quick turnarounds at a single stub terminal.
What does G.O. and T/O stand for? I see it all the time and have no idea what it means, but know what happens when it's in effect!
B61 Leonard
Look in the glossary section of the Subway FAQ on this website for this answer and many other interesting tidbits.
Is there an on-line link to this article?
--Mark
Here it is
--Mark
I'm taking the family back to NYC to visit. Does the Nostalgia train run scheduled excursions? We'll be in 5/29-6/3.
You'll miss 'em. They're scheduled for later in June and 2 weekends in July.
--Mark
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at:
www.jclandmarks.org.
Hi All-
I just returned from a month in London. I have some questions I would like ti pose to the subtalkers based in London. The first is: The 1973 surface stock on the District Line are clearly the most run down on the system. Are there plans to refurbish these trains? I think the firm that refurbed the tube stock on the Picadilly Line would do an outstanding job if the District Line stock is to be saved.
More Q's to Follow,
Michael B.
Michael,
A follow-up, since I didnt have the chance to ride the District when I was in London over Easter. Did any of the District trains have a lip at the bottom close to the platform (ie a cross-section of)
----
/\
||
||
_/\_
Thats the really old (dont know just how old, but it was there when I first went to London in 1964) stock. IMHO, its the more interesting sub-surface Tube stock.
John.
First built in 1935, with with various incompatible but similar appearing batches built until 1959. Unfortunately, this stock is long gone. Don't know the exact date, but 1985 seems about right
I think I heard 1982 for the R stock, which I believe was the last of the flaired skirt style subsurface stock running. I could be wrong, though.
-Robert King
I checked with a book at home.
Correct me if I am wrong but were early versions built for the Met and subsequently moved to the District and Circle ?
Simon
Swindon UK
IIRC, Q & R stock were built for the District.
CO/CP(nee O/P): O for the Met (Hamm. & City), P for the Met (Uxbridge, Circle).
By the time I started to live in London, All CO/CP, R stock were on the District, along with some C stock on the Edgeware Rd.- Wimbledon service.
No lips, here's a few pictures of the District Line D stock.
District Line Exterior
District Line Interior
D78 stock on the District line is undoubtedly the next in the queue for refurbishment, and is certainly not in danger of being withdrawn (it is by far the most reliable stock on the Underground). I am not aware of any plans for this though.
I don't think it's that bad. You should have seen the last of the 59's
I do agree it's time for a spruce up, as to when I think it will have to wait until the situation of who runs the Underground is finally sorted out.
Simon
Swindon UK
Actually, those District Line cars were built in 1983! Doesn't look it eh?
Those cars are the most reliable in the LUL. They just don't look pretty. Remind me of the old PATH cars that they retired a few years back.
..........Back in Revenue service!!!! While working the deuce today, the R142 was approaching 34St going down to Flatbush. This was around 10:15pm. Then around 12:10am, I saw it again going uptown at 135St. Both times there were passengers on it. Dont have a clue as to what the car numbers was. I hope this is it and they wont be taken out of service again.
I assume you are talking about the one on the 7th Avenue express since you said R142.
Anyone know how many trains?
Thanks, in advance.
More importantely, are they fixed now? If so then they will all definitely be in service by March 2002. We can now concentrate on the R143s.
i told you they would be back soon. but to believe it, i have to check for myself. however i heard they were testing them out to see how the improvements held up. and this is the first time i've ever heard of an R-142 run so late. the R-142A ran up til 12:00 last night.
Well, I seen it again tonight during the PM rush. Car #'s 6426-6430 are part of the train set. So it is Bombadier unit out.
Hey Partner!
6421-30 were out in full force. They were doing some test simulations days before coming into revenue service. This should be their passenger run debut. I don't believe these were in service before the cars were pulled.
On a related note, anyone know if personnel snuck another 5 car Bombardier Set into E180th Street, on Monday Night? I was greeted by the Red Duo of N1 and N2 at 96th St going south, but not heading into Brooklyn. Locomotives came in on Southbound Express Track, stopped, and waited for a northbound lineup. Southbound local came by, and the Tower gave a Yellow over Yellow Lineup for the diesels, to cross from the soutbound express to the soutbound local track. They were wrong railing upstairs on the soutbound local track before crossing into the middle at 103rd St. One would venture a guess that the diesels were headed back to B Division territory, 38th St Yard.
I know it happens every so often, but I've always found it interesting to see equipment travelling against the normal flow of traffic. The passengers on the platform were probably scrathcing their heads and wondering what this was all about.
-Stef
A PIECE OF GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT YOUR GONNA HAVE TO LIVE WITH!!! EITHER THAT OR DON'T RIDE THE SUBWAY ANYMORE.
You really bring down the intelligence level of the Rustbird fans, you and some other poster, who shall remain nameless.
The poster, not the train.
PIGS ARE WORST!!!!!!!!!!
I suppose you meant to say, "Pigs are worse." You're not doing much to help your reputation. If Human Beings were retired and scrapped as subway cars are, you'd be out before your namesakes.
I wish that everyone would quit trashing the subway cars that they don't like. I'll admit that I don't like certain cars either but if the subway car that I ride on works and is safe I don't care what it is as long as it gets me to where I'm going. If this doesn't stop then every car that is in the subway system will be trashed in one way or another.
BMTJeff
I hope you're not addressing this to me. But perhaps you should, as I do talk about the Redbirds sometimes. But it is fact according to the consnseus of SubTalk and I only do it as a counter to the ridiculous ACCUSATIONS, OPINIONS, and NON-FACTS of a few of the Redbird fans. Hell, I've even come to the defense of the R62, rightly named the Hippo, a large, FAST animal. When I see some of you do 40 mph, I'll concede and call the R68 slow. Anyway, I won't bash the Redbirds anymore unless necessary. But I do PLEA that the IDIOTIC Redbird fans on this board (and they know who they are) stop making those insipid and unecessary comments like "R142s suck !! long live the redbirds !! !" and "I HATE R142S!!!!!! REDBIRDS ARE GREAT BECAUSE THEY ARE SIMPLE!!!!!" If they do this, then there won't be anymore of this silly Redbird vs. R142 fued. The R142s can be slowly placed on the 2 and 6 lines, and eventually the 5 I guess, and the Redbirds can live their last days happily rusting away.
I've never heard of an R68 being called a hippo...............except on this board. Who came up with this stupid nickname?
I don't know who came up with the name of "Hippo" but it seems apt for the R-68s because they are big and a little slow but they will get you there.
BMTJeff
now the subject line looks better !! LOL !! ( not directed at the poster before this one ) @ ( Smile )
That's the best subject line.
I think that people should quit trashing all of the subway cars altogether. If they don't tey'll think that ALL subway cars are garbage.
BMTJeff
But the hippopotamus is a FAST animal.
Stop telling them that. They'll never understand you.
It isn't direct at you specifically but to those who keep trashing any kind of subway car especially the new one. These people should realize that though the "Redbirds" were good in their day they are now simply old worn out subway cars that are due for retirement and they'll have to accept the fact that new equipment is in the process of replacing the old and after they have ridden the new cars for a while they'll never want to ride on a "Redbird" again. The "Redbirds" may have been state of the art during the late 1950s and 1960s but now they are old and obsolete to be replaced by something that in the end will be a whole lot better. I'll admit that I do like certain old subway cars but I don't think that I would like to ride on them everyday since what is in use now is better than the old. True the R-68s aren't very fast but they get me there when I ride them dependably and safely which is what is most important.
BMTJeff
how much do you want to bet we will surrender our redbirds without a good fight ???...............LOL !!!!
big time LOL !!!
No matter what you say, the Redbirds are on the way out. Everything new has teething problems. That is the way of the world, the old gets replaced by the new. You can accept it, you can resist it. But it's gonna happen. One day there will be no Redbirds on the IRT.
Just as a Devil's advocate thing here, can anyone tell me how many LoV's are still in revenue service on the IRT? They once ruled the rails too ... and they were GREAT in their time. Same for the birds ... ride them while you still can, savor them, take pictures to show your grandkids ... they're going to go sleep with the LoV's and steinways, Gibbs cars and WF's ... time trudges on.
And on the other foot:
A new chapter begins in the IRT. For the first time there will be all stainless steel cars, something that the B division has boasted since 1993. (Although, they should've kept the Rebuilt R-30/30A's)
Maybe wood paneling will make a comeback some day ... and disco lights. :)
I hope wood paneling does make a comeback too. The best modern subway interiors we have here today are basically a tasteful amount of wood paneling (obviously not real wood, but still...) from the floor up to waist high with a pleasantly bright but not overly warm cream coloured paneling up from there and on the ceiling. Doorways and the doors themselves are finished in a cheerful canary yellow or rich orange colour, depending upon the type of subway car (H5, H6). This was the standard design into the from the mid 1970s to the mid 1980s.
Now the newest subway interior is a grey marble floor (agreeable), grey wall panels up to the ceiling which is also the same grey. The doorways and doors are painted a horribly dark red and makes for a dark, unpleasant, gloomy, cold interior which brings the interior of our refrigerator when the little light blub inside burns out to mind.
-Robert King
And even those fuzzy bits growing in the corners. By gum, I think ya got something there. :)
Technically, all cars on the IRT are LoVs.
Picky picky ... heh.
..and on the day of the fan trip the people were disappointed to find out that the train being used was in fact a...
-Robert King
T%hat is right. There will be no more "Redbirds" one of these days and everybody will have to get used to it. They will find that the R-142s, R-142As are better after all. Then no one will want to go back to riding the "Redbirds" except on nostalgia specials.
BMTJeff
only new junkers ??
No, only new cars. The old junk will be sitting on somebody's ocean floor, NIMBY's and envirofreaks not withstanding.
Time for the killfile....anytime you post comments it is obvious that this only fuels his fire. -Nick
What fire? I only post comments about people when they make stupid statements and don't bother backing them up. That's the only time I even start a fire. Those kinds of post not only fuel my fire, they're the match that starts it and my responses are the extinguisher (by way of giving the fire to the other person, because I sure as hell don't want it).
I won't killfile you (in case somebody responds to this), but R-29 never posts anything useful, so he might join Professor Putter and jclandmarks.org.
And another thing (in case somebody responds to this too), I post a lot more useful stuff than R-29 (although not many times more, if that was the case I'd post nothing). Killfile me, lose useful discussion.
I'm not liked because I'm controversial and I'm not afraid to insult someone because I do NOT believe that everybody's opinion should be respected and is correct and am not afraid to tell somebody like is.
And that's just the way I like it, you don't have to listen to me if you don't like, but I'm not changing, and many people don't mind.
now thats better !!! Welcome back south ferry !! keep up the good work !!
I think you posted your response to the wrong message.
That can happen often in LaLa land.
the LaLa land of the posters train dude pork pig & the other white meat !! ( smile ) LOL !!!
Shut your mouth and turn off the CAPS please!! If you don't like the R142s that is your own opinion, but at least back up your dislikings with some evidence...then it won't be bashing. I can say plenty about your R-29s and other redbirds, and I'll back myself up with info for evidence. -Nick
good post keep up the good work ( smile ) ...
Can anybody tell me in what year the connection from the Nassau St line to the south-side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge was officially discontinued north of Chambers St?? It seems that "TT" service from the West End branch terminated at Chambers, then went back to Bay Pkwy via Tunnel WITHOUT using the Manhattan Bridge BEFORE the Chrystie St Connection officially opened in 1967. Tony
All I know is that it couldn't have been too useful a connection. Essentially, even "northbound" you would have made a big circle back to DeKalb.
:-) Andrew
It was a very useful connection. Three services looped south and one north. It made very efficient use of the Nassau Street capacity since all Southern Division rush hour trains through it could go in the direction of heavy travel without having to relay in Manhattan.
By the time the R27s were around so that the service could be signed "TT" West End Locals DID go via tunnel only, turning at Chambers.
But when the Culver still ran to Nassau Street, the Culver Expresses went south through the loop and the West End Locals went north during rush hours.
Brighton and 4th Avenue Express "Specials" continued to loop right up until Christie Street opened.
I honestly don't remember a Brighton or 4th Av Express "specials" in the era just prior to 1967. None of the subway maps of that era describe them. But to answer the original question, the tracks probably weren't severed until Chrystie St construction began.
I can't think of any public maps or timetables that showed the "Bankers Specials." On the ETTs the 4th Avenue Expresses were usually carried on the West End-Nassau sheets and the Brighton specials on the Brighton Express sheets.
The regular commuters knew them well.
I knew of and rode the M Brighton-Nassau Special, that ran from Coney Island to Chambers St., via tunnel, express from Kings Highway. This was September 1965 through November 1967. The consists at that time were R32 Brightliners exclusively. The 4th Avenue trains at that time were R27/30s exclusively and were signed up as RR. They were all Broadway locals. I never saw a 4th Av. express to Chambers. Apparently, this 4th Av. service had been discontinued prior to September 1965. The TT West End locals also ran to Chambers, via tunnel, during this period and used R32 Brightliners exclusively.
The 4th Av.'s continued running right up to the end (the previous Wednesday, as Thurs. was Thanksgiving, and Fri. the realignment work began.) Only they were no longer express (That ended some years before). But they were the only ones that went over the bridge peak direction
(From what I heard, they were signed "S" in one direction and "M" the other, probably Manhattan.)
In the two year span Sept. 1965 through Nov. 1967, I got off at Dekalb Av. a lot, this the am rush hour. The only services I saw go through Dekalb were M, N, Q, QT, RR, T, TT. I never saw a train signed up as an S at Dekalb. Maybe a 4th Av. service signed up other than RR was during the BMT Standard days?
4th Avenue Expresses were signed "M". Saw them with my own eyes. You have to realize that these were never "officially" "M". They didn't really provide for the "Specials" on R27 rollsigns, so this was probably inconsistent.
The 4th Avenue-Nassau service actually survived Christie Street as the RJ. Remember?
Remember the "Know Trains at a Glance" placards at Southern Division stations prior to Chrystie St.? They had an "M-Nassau St. Express" designation, although it didn't appear on maps.
It survived for 20 years after Chrystie, as the R/RR special.
The beginning of the Chrystie era was the RJ service. I think it was merely a mechanism by the TA to swap R16's with R27's on the 4th Avenue line.
The RJ never ran as advertised. I never remember seeing one in the AM rush, but in the PM rush, they ran to Jamaica.
I enjoyed the novelty in the Spring-Summer 68 evenings of waiting for a certain time at Woodhaven Blvd for a banished R16 to come along and go to Jamaica. They always deadheaded back. For ones that were R27's, they could be turned into a JJ at 168th, rather than turn the next QJ into a JJ.
Hey gang, does anybody out there remember what rolling stock was utilized for that short period on the RJ, NX, JJ, QB lines during late 1967-8? Tony (born in '69).
I recall seeing pictures on this site where an R16 was signed RJ and another R16 with an NX sign on the door (not the roll sign) like what is currently done in DC with Metrorail. I remember that QB's were R27's and then R42's a couple of years later. I can't say anything about the JJ's because I lived in Astoria and rarely went to Jamaica. The QJ's were R27's.
RJ was usually two R27's and three R16's.
NX was R27
JJ: rush hour Broadway Local was BMT standard, then R7/9
JJ: off-hour substitute for QJ was R27, a few Eastern Division assigned R42, a stray R16 or R32 every few days.
QB was R27, the same equipment pool as QJ.
Often a QJ was marked as such from the front, QB from the rear, and vice-versa as theys wapped identities when changing ends at Brighton Beach or Coney Island.
Yes, I remember the RJ. And the QJ and the JJ. What was interesting at the time was that all three Brighton services, D, QB, and QJ, went express on other portions of their routes. I wonder how evening rush passengers waiting at Nassau distinguished whether the M was going via Brighton or 4th Av. I am assuming here that the 4th Av. M was using R27/30s whilst the Brighton M used R32 Brightliners.
The Bankers Specials ceased to exist after the Chrystie St. connection opened. Or put in another way, the QJ and RJ took their places. The M marking was assigned to the #10 Myrtle Ave.-Chambers line. IIRC BMT standards were used until their retirement.
I worked right near City Hall from January-June 1967 and sometimes walked over to Chambers Street to take a Brighton "Special" home. I had to hustle because I got out of work at 5:30 and the last Special was maybe 15 minutes later. Oddly I have no clear recollection recollection of either their equipment or how they were signed, but I seem to recall they used R27s, which would have been consistent with previous practice where the Brighton Express used Triplexes but the "Specials" used Standards.
I good guess is that the evening specials were signed "Q" or "QT" for the Brightons and "RR" for the 4th Avenues. In that interim period between the introduction of letters and the opening of Christie the motormen often punted if they didn't have a dead correct sign, so they posted what they thought made sense.
When R27s were used on the Franklin Shuttle, sometimes they were signed "SS", sometimes "QT", sometimes blank on the end sign. One motorman liked to sign his train "A". I asked him how come. 'We connect with the "A" train,' he said. I've got a picture of that somewhere.
Certain of the Saturday Franklin-Brighton locals were actually apart of the #1 schedule, and not #7 (Shuttle). At that time, there was still a Sat. express, and the local was pulled out of Broadway, and sent to Chambers first, then to Franklin. When the R-27's first appeared, they were QT's. This was separate from the #7/SS to Brighton Beach or Coney Island on Sundays and weekdays. But by 1962, all of this had ceased; QB ran all service to Astoria all weekend, and the Franklin was a shuttle for good (until a few '90's G.O.s)
It's all here: Line By Line History
Also, perhaps the motorman used "A" because it corresponded with the BMT #1, plus the track chaining letter was "A". So in both cases, the Brighton was the BMT's "A Train".
Paul, wouldn't it be more likely that during 1965-1967, since R32s were used on the Brighton M and the West End TT for Nassau in the morning, that the same (then newest) equipment would be used in the evening? Perhaps you saw the R27/30s on the Brighton M in 1964? During 1965 until November 1967, the only equipment to use the express tracks of the Brighton line, that I saw, was the R32 (and I saw quite a few Q and M trains then).
By the way, could you or perhaps else someone here on this site verify a memory of mine, perhaps mistaken as I was only 10 years old at the time and not interested in trains: IIRC, I saw throughout July 1961 R16s on the express tracks at Brighton Beach. Could they have run the Brighton express route, albeit for a short period, at that time?
I have a very poor memory of what was running on the evening Brighton specials in those last years. Looking atthe schedule info I posted in another thread I see why. The last special was already gone in the evening before I left work at 5:30.
As to R16s on the Brighton in 1961 I doubt it. It would have to have been a very unusual circumstance. I never recall an R16 in any Southern Division service pre-Christie. I don't even know that they had Southern Division numbers.
Pre-Christie the Southern and Eastern Division fleets were kept separate. Even Standards were separately assigned to one or the other. If you saw equipment from one division on the other there was a special reason. For example, some of the West End-Nassaus laid up in ENY during midday.
But I'll bet all the Eastern Division equipment refused to talk to them. ;-)
It's possible the R-16s could have had Southern Division number signs on their roller curtains. There is a photo in the R-16 section of a 4th Ave local at Astoria with a 2 sign in the front slot.
Now that picture is weird. Notice the date: 2/18/68 of 6312. An R16 in an unfamiliar place with a BMT number after Christie Street?
Also note 6313 with the same date, same line, with "RR" up front.
There's something more to be said about those pictures. Perhaps 6312 was on/had been on a fantrip with a Southern Division number sign from an R9.
Now that picture is weird. Notice the date: 2/18/68 of 6312. An R16 in an unfamiliar place with a BMT number after Christie Street?
Also note 6313 with the same date, same line, with "RR" up front.
There's something more to be said about those pictures. Perhaps 6312 was on/had been on a fantrip with a Southern Division number sign from an R9.
The M's southern terminus was Broad Street during the QJ era and was BMT Standards, then R7/9.
All I remember is seeing was TT's deadheading to ENY in the AM rush, not the others. I didn't know the others existed. The TT's were mostly R32, a few R27/30.
Perhaps the M trains were routed through the loop and back over the bridge to Coney Island for their mid-day rest. In those days, the only southern division trains terminating service at Chambers St. that I know of (and I rode quite a bit) were the M and the TT. Later, during the mid-70s IIRC, some trains that had been signed up as RR went via Nassau St. to Chambers instead of via Broadway local.
Perhaps the M trains were routed through the loop and back over the bridge to Coney Island for their mid-day rest.
That's exactly what happened. As I recall from the early 1960s, there were 5 or 6 Brighton "Bankers Specials" in the morning rush hour and 3 or 4 in the evening. They ran peak direction only between Coney Island and Chambers St., local to Kings Highway, then switching to the express track to Prospect Park and via tunnel to Chambers. After dropping passengers at Chambers St., they would deadhead back to Brooklyn via the Manhattan bridge. The evening trains would deadhead into Chambers St. from Brooklyn via the Manhattan bridge.
The usual consists of these trains (prior to the arrival of the R32s) was six standards, although one of the evening trains was often an 8 car train of R27/R30s, signed "Q", "Chambers St.", "Coney Island". The AM trains (standards) were signed "Express" in both route windows, and "Nassau St" and "Chambers St" in the destination windows. I believe the PM trains of Standards were signed "Brighon Exp." and "Coney Island" -- don't remember if "via tunnel" or "Chambers St." were used.
During the day, some of the trainsets laid up in the Coney Island yard. Two of the 6-car standard trainsets were used in midday service on the Brighton Exp., the only standards used on the route in those years.
-- Ed Sachs
The widest PATH cars currently used are 9 feet 2 inches. Does anyone know if a 9 foot 6 inch wide train car can fit through this tunnel. If a car of that width can fit through the tunnel, a Talgo trainset could deposit passengers into Manhattan at a point other than Penn Station.
As a side note, how high are the platfiorms over the top of the rail on PATH?
The sharp curves in PATH tunnels (think of the approach to the World Trade Center) would preclude running mainline trains through them.
Cubic announced that the TA is paying $7M for 250 more Iron Madens.
Could these be coming to lightly used stations that now have a Station Agent ? That's a question not answered in the anouncement, but someone should ask. Roger do you have you ears on ?
Mr t__:^)
They are now called H.E.E.Ts* now longer Iron Maidens since they are now made of stainless steel.
One good use for these HEETs are those exit only parts of the stations that now can be entry points. I think one station that was exit only was 18th Ave on the (N), 17th Ave exit. Why walk the entire block when the former station exit is now a Metrocard entry point. The HEETs are the best thing to come along in long time. Remember when you lost your token in the old Iron Maiden ?
Bill "Newkirk"
*High Entry Exit Turnstile
Aqueduct/No. Conduit needs some H.E.E.T.s at its northern end. The north bound platform needs ts stairs replace and the community will rejoice and burn candles and take out classified space to Saint Jude, patron saint of lost causes.
avid
Call em Metro Maidens if you ask me.
I call them egg slicers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which stations have the biggest graffiti problem?
I was down a couple of weeks ago, railfanning and noticed how clean the system was. No doubt the MTA has done it's job over the past 12 years. Is their still a lingering graffiti problem and if so which neighborhoods and stations are the most targeted.
The stations are by and large mostly graffiti free. So are the trains (except for the scratchitti on all the windows). The biggest graffiti problems are in the tunnels in between stations. If you ever go through a stretch where they are doing work and have extra lights, you can see how bad it is. It appears to be througout the entire system and I am not aware of any plans to cover it up.
NEW MURALS AT PHUN PHACTORY, yo marty I was there today, benching up, looks like your CHOM mural will be a reality. Im working on it.
Nostalgia Train to Rockaway Park is leaving on Father's Day. Tickets go on sale on May 15. I just hope they don't change it to Coney Island at the last minute. They've done that before. If they're going to Coney, at least take the Brighton line instead of the Culver.
Triplexes are being used.
From where do we get tickets?
Dan
Yes, who are we going to call, GHOSTBUSTERS?
Transit Museum, most likely.
Rockaway Park itself is less interesting than Coney Island, but the route to Rockaway Park KICKS FUCKING ASS.
But the route isn't as important, I'd prefer to soak up the ambience of the car, I can ride to Rockaway park any day.
It's been a long time since we talked about this but are the CAF cars in service yet?
It should be in service by now as we TALKING!!!
I don't think they're running yet. They should start sometime this month.
This might be a stuped question. What are CAF cars.
Robert
This might be a stuped question. What are CAF cars.
Washington Metro's new cars, built by a Spanish company called CAF. No idea what CAF stands for, though.
Of course, in my universe the initials "CAF" stand for Chicago Architecture Foundation. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Of course, in my universe the initials "CAF" stand for Chicago Architecture Foundation. :-)"
Did you see the prototype bus shelter CAF has up in the lobby of the Railway Exchange Building? Niiiice! But I don't think a public touch screen Internet terminal will remain in working order for very long in some areas. :^)
No, it's been a while since I've been over that way. I'll have to check it out.
Any idea who designed the bus shelter? The internet terminal idea sounds like something concocted by Stanley Tigerman or Ben Nicholson, both local architectural professors not exactly known for their grip on reality. It certainly poses some interesting questions, assuming it worked for more than an hour before being vandalized or infiltrated with snow. Would it have filtering software to prevent people from surfing porn sites while waiting for the Broadway bus? Yuppies in Lincoln Park could keep track of the stock market, and decide whether or not to throw themselves in front of the 151 bus when it shows up. In certain neighborhoods, drug dealers could use Instant Messenger to communicate with each other, now that most pay phones have been removed or converted to prevent use with pagers. And of course, BusTalkers could use them to report the models and numbers of every bus that comes by. (And you thought they were annoying before...) God forbid we ever get internet terminals in subway stations. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, on a more serious note, I could easily see bus shelters that incoporate flat-panel monitors that display things like weather and traffic info, news headlines, and transit service notices in addition to paid advertising. We already have such displays in the elevators here in the Sears Tower, by a company called Captivate. I guess the trick would be to make them weather and vandal-proof enough for outdoor transit use.
Maybe I should actually go see the CAF display before making sarcastic comments about it. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
If you want to see caf cars Click here.
If you want to see caf cars Click here.
There's nothing unusual about multilingual websites, of course, but CAF's is the first one I've ever seen with a section in Basque!
If you want to see caf cars Click here.
There's nothing unusual about multilingual websites, of course, but CAF's is the first one I've ever seen with a section in Basque!
Geez, I assume nobody has ever accused the WMATA of breaking new ground on those cars. If nothing else, you'd think they could have at least updated the 1970's orange-and-yellow interiors. Say what you want about the R142's, but at least they're a step forward.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There are other changes as well.
The "guts" of the cars probably have high tech, mircoprocessor based systems, like all the new subway car orders currently out there. But Oren, admit it, WMATA is WAAAAY too monotonous with the design of its cars.
It is better than MARTA. Admit that!
Better than this?!
I don't think so!
Better than the CQ310-311? Definitly, but not by much.
The CQ312 is superior ro the old WMATA scheme. No comment about the CAF scheme since I have only seen computer generated photos. The real photos have all been black and white.
No.
Dang! By the time the CAF cars are in service it will be december 2002.
WMATA=DELAYS
You ever see someone use SmarTrip on a MetroBus??
Same reason. It takes twice as long as it should for improvements to be made.
Check out this Redbird shot I took at Gun Hill Road. I'm gonna miss them. (sniff)
So are those two kids peering out the front.
Nice photo!
I ain't never gonna miss no stinking noisy hot redbirds. Every been on a lex redbird during the summer? Not pleasant. The R-142's will provide nice photo ops. too.
If it were possible to travel back in time, I'd pick 1960. That must have been quite a year for the subway. Think of all the now-vanished equipment still in use - Standards, Triplexes, all the R-series up to the R30's, and even a few real throwbacks like the Lo-V's and Q cars. Not that everything would be completely vintage, as some of the still-extant Redbirds were in service back then. And some old routings were still in use, such as the Culver and Myrtle shuttles and the Jamaica El. The overall system was in pretty good shape in 1960; the "deferred maintenance" policy that was to prove so destructive later on had hardly made a difference, graffiti was still many years in the future, and the trains ran faster and more frequently than nowadays. Yep, 1960 was quite a year ...
And, don't forget, if you paid for the GG-1 to take you to Philly in 1960, you could "railfan" the brand new Budd Co. Almond Joys on the Market-Frankford Line...
>>And don't forget, if you paid for the GG-1 to take you to Philly in 1960, you could "railfan" the brand new Budd Co. Almond Joys on the Market-Frankford Line...<<
And last Sunday was the 41st anniversary of the arrival of Almond Joy 601. 1960 was a very good year (too bad I wasn't alive yet, I was born in 1966).
Also, back then the Market-Frankford line Almond Joys would have run through viable working class neighborhoods instead of the urban decay of modern Kensington.
Mark
1960s a good year, but I'd probably go for 1938 or 1940 depending on whether on not I wanted to ride the brand-new Sixth Ave. subway or ride the Sixth Ave. el in its dying days.
Almost all of the inner sections of the subway were in place by 1938, but the Manhattan els were still around, as were most of the now-gone Brooklyn el lines. By 1940, the last of the original IRT fleet, the World's Fair Low Vs had arrived, and all of the BMT's experimentals from the 1930s were still in service.
Of course, 1940 was also the year of unification, so if I could go back 61 years, I'd probably try to warn the populace and LaGuardia that the city takeover of the subway system wasn't going to be all it supposedly was cracked up to being and that they shouldn't tear down all of the east side els, because nothing else was ever going to get built in its place (though since Fiorello was about as arrogant as Guiliani, there's no way in hell the message would ever get through).
though since Fiorello was about as arrogant as Guiliani, there's no way in hell the message would ever get through.
No surprise then that there were no good mayors between them (Koch was good because it was totally impossible to be any worse than his predecessors).
so if I could go back 61 years, I'd probably try to warn the populace and LaGuardia that the city takeover of the subway system wasn't going to be all it supposedly was cracked up to being
I know this is OT, but I remember me and other kids talking, in that era of great science-fiction of the '50s, of going back in time to see stuff/see people/warn them of upcoming doom.
But the big issue we got stuck on was: "how do you convince them you're really from the future so they'd listen"? We usually said stuff like: "we'll tell them what will happen in tomorrow's paper" assuming we knew the exact date we'd land in and what would be in tomorrow's paper. Telling them stuff like "Hitler's a really bad guy and will murder tens of millions" would be viewed as political opinion, not clairvoyance.
So turn it around: if someone came up to you today, and said "I'm from the year 2030" what could he possibly do or say that would absolutely make you believe it, and not think it was a trick, a joke, or a psychosis?
Probably something like in "Back to the Future -- Part II" and have a sports book or almanac with all the league and individual major event winners for the next 30 years. Of course, that would take at least a couple of weeks to prove out, but if they can get the NBA, NHL, Preakness, Belmont, PGA Tournament, Indy 500 and Wimbledon winners for 2001 all correct, I'd believe them.
>>> if someone came up to you today, and said "I'm from the year 2030" what could he possibly do or say that would absolutely make you believe it, <<<
"They are talking about putting the 2nd Avenue subway in the next capital budget."
Tom
I thought that was a visitor from 1948?
Personally, I'd pick 1935. The els were still running, as were a lot of the TARS and Brooklyn trolleys (although just before the PCCs showed up). The IND in Manhattan was open as well. Send me back with my digital camera and about 100 rolls of film for a week and I'd be happy...
And south of NYC, Philly, Baltimore and Washington all still have streetcars. GG-1 still own NY-Washington, and PRR is the only way to go south.
Oh, yeah, Dave.....a Digital camera that uses film????? If you did go back to 1935, forget the digial watch and any other early 21st century items - they tend to attract attention.
I forgot about the GG-1's. I'd have to squeeze in a trip on the Pennsy because of them.
If I'd be able to ride commuter rail as well as the subway, I suppose 1958 would be better than 1960 as the Put was still running.
1958? Yuk!!!!! The worst and unhappiest year of my life---for many, many reasons I will not go into if for no other reason that to bring back bad thoughts. I'd transpose Dave's 1935 around somewhat and pick 1953. That was the last year I went to Coney Island on the Sea beach, and the last year I went to Ebbets Field on the Brighton. The Dodgers were sensational that year until the World Series, winning 105 games, and Coney Island was still an attractive amusement park. It was still the early 50's and New York was still a very pleasant place then. Of course, some of my detractors could say that it became even better in 1954 when I left town for good, but they wouldn't say that, would they? Anyway, my vote goes to 1953.
I'd put the digital camera in a brownie box.
Getting warranty service on it would be a pain, though.
And south of NYC, Philly, Baltimore and Washington all still have streetcars. GG-1s still own NY-Washington, and PRR is the only way to go south.
Oh, yeah, Dave.....a Digital camera that uses film????? If you did go back to 1935, forget the digital watch and any other early 21st century items - they tend to attract attention.
And, if you're Vulcan, don't forget to cover your ears...
Don't laugh, but in Baltimore in the early 70's, my neighborhood bank had a teller who was a young lady whose eyebrows slanted up and always kept her hair over the tops of her ears. Strange......
"they're here........."
Not 1939 and the World's Fair? To me, that was New York's peak.
(Not 1939 and the World's Fair? To me, that was New York's peak.)
It might have been NYC's RELATIVE peak (vs. the rest of the country). In absolute terms, I'd say the boom running up to 1929 was the peak for New York.
My understanding is that aside from WWII (wouldn't want to be around then), subway ridership peaked in 1930. If you want to include all transit, then according to the Historical Statistics of the U.S. 1923 was your year. There was no IND in NYC, but you could get just about anywhere worth going without a car. That's my criteria for railfanning.
I was thinking beyond the transportation system and more towards
the culture of the city. To me, 1939 represents the epitome of
sophistication and sleekness, but it sure went downhill fast!
>>> 1939 represents the epitome of sophistication and sleekness, <<<
You are thinking of Hollywood's version of 1939 New York. It was not so good for the working class who were struggling on WPA jobs, or even transit workers who had not yet won the 8/40 with union wages.
Tom
Hmmm....20 rolls of film for Triplexes on the Manhattan Bridge...10 rolls for the pre war R1 units over the Gowanus Viaduct...10 for BUs on the Fulton El at Fulton Ferry, 10 for Sands Street, you sure 100 a day is enough? :)
I'm not sure 1960 would be my first choice of destinations for the Wayback Machine either; from a railfan standpoint I'd probably choose somewhere between about 1909-1916; if I had to narrow it down to a single year, 1915. Some of the attractions: the street railway and interurban network was near its greatest extent; the Florida East Coast's Key West extension had opened, and the Colorado Midland had not yet folded; NYO&W was still running through sleepers to Chicago. The _Official Guide_ ran to around 2000 pages, with scarcely a freight-only listing to be found. And then, there were world's fairs going on in both San Diego and San Francisco that year.
Plus, of course, the chance to pick up some first editions of early P. G. Wodehouse on the cheap...
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
How much time do you get to spend? If you pick too early in 1960, you won't see R27s, but you'll see the Brighton Local with Standards. If I were looking at the era, I'd probably prefer early 1950. You wouldn't get to see the Redbirds in their early days, but you would get to see the original IRT/BMT/IND equipment on almost lines, including most BMT elevated car types, the BMT experimentals, the Lex and rump Fulton St. Ls, the 3rd Avenue L in Manhattan and a good chunk of the rapidly disappearing Brooklyn trolleys.
Good trade off from 1960, eh?
I'll throw you a curve, though. Suppose you had to live in your chosen year--the whole year--or even permanently? If I could go as a tourist, I'd probably choose 1937, when almost everything below the R10s was running and the overall system was about at its greatest extent.
But I'm not sure if I would want to deal with the Depression and the privations of the coming WWII.
And wouldn't it be a b*tch if I chose 1918 to see the Dual Contract transitions and got killed by the flu?
I'll throw you a curve, though. Suppose you had to live in your chosen year--the whole year--or even permanently? If I could go as a tourist, I'd probably choose 1937, when almost everything below the R10s was running and the overall system was about at its greatest extent.
But I'm not sure if I would want to deal with the Depression and the privations of the coming WWII.
I wouldn't mind spending a year in 1960. As I noted earlier, the subway was in good shape then and had a variety of equipment not seen today. In addition, from what I've gathered, the city itself was near its peak in 1960; it may have slipped a bit from the golden years of the 1950's, but the fiscal crisis, high crime rates and Sunbelt competition were still years in the future.
As far as going back permanently is concerned, I'll pass.
from what I've gathered, the city itself was near its peak in 1960; it may have slipped a bit from the golden years of the 1950's, but the fiscal crisis, high crime rates and Sunbelt competition were still years in the future.
I've got to argue with that premise, since I lived in the City in that time frame.
True, it was before the '60s cycle of decline, riots and Lindsay, but neither was it a bed of roses, for all of the seeds of the later problems were actively being sown. Nor can I describe the '50s as "golden years."
Deferred maintenance had already kicked in on the subway system. The service cuts of May 1957, which were most severe on nights and off-hours was described by some as the "May Massacre."
Wagner was a better city manager than Lindsay (to say the least) but he presided over a combination of gray city government, rising taxes, declining services and physical neglect, all of which helped get Lindsay elected.
The restaurant in the crumbling boat house in Prospect Park was long since closed--its only remaining purpose to sell tickets to the rowboats. The structure on Parkside Avenue which we called "the Greek Temple" was likewise crumbling. The City considered demolishing both rather than give them minimal maintenance. I cite these only as representative of the City's general neglect of its infrastructure.
The rise of the jet plane had the transAtlantic ship traffic going into its terminal decline. City manufacturing and the Navy Yard were declining. The garment work that is now going overseas was already going to the Carolinas. At the same time, the South was exporting its displaced and lower skilled surplus (and mostly black) agricultural workers north, sometimes even providing free (one-way) bus tickets. These folks mostly hoped to find work, but had not yet been able to acquire the skills needed in an urban economy, and all the City offered many was a miserable life of dependency.
Tourism was falling, people feared gang violence, families felt threatened going to Coney Island, and most people would not set foot in Central Park at any hour of the day or night.
So let's be a little reserved about "The Good Old Days." My message (especially to the young railfans out there): Enjoy 2001. THESE are the "Good Old Days."
Doesn't mean I wouldn't like an time machine and a camera, though....
from what I've gathered, the city itself was near its peak in 1960; it may have slipped a bit from the golden years of the 1950's, but the fiscal crisis, high crime rates and Sunbelt competition were still years in the future.
I've got to argue with that premise, since I lived in the City in that time frame.
True, it was before the '60s cycle of decline, riots and Lindsay, but neither was it a bed of roses, for all of the seeds of the later problems were actively being sown. Nor can I describe the '50s as "golden years."
I know where you're coming from. Things often do look a lot better in retrospect than they seemed at the time. That's particularly true with respect to the 1950's, and not just in New York; all you hear today is how wonderful that decade was, but people who lived through the period (including some of my older relatives) have different stories. My guess is that the 1950's look good nowadays because they were a lot more peaceful than the decade that followed. A hundred years ago, people probably looked back on the 1850's with fond nostalgia, for precisely the same reason.
One thing that might make me sort of nostalgic is my upbringing. I grew up in Waterbury, Connecticut, with my first real memories going back to the early 1960's. Even the most level-headed sort would have to agree that Waterbury before, say, the late 1970's or early 1980's was a far better place than it is today. Its industrial economy went through a meltdown in the years surrounding 1980 and was replaced with basically nothing. What little prosperity remained was killed off in the Great Recession of the early 1990's. New York, for all its faults, never went through quite the same implosion and fall.
By the way, it's funny to see Lindsay equated with "decline and riots." He's probably spinning in his grave as we speak :-)
Deferred maintenance had already kicked in on the subway system. The service cuts of May 1957, which were most severe on nights and off-hours was described by some as the "May Massacre."
I hadn't known about those service cuts. Was ridership on the decline at the time? That sounds quite possible, what with the growth in suburbanization and car ownership.
One thing that might have made the subway in 1960 seem in decent shape was the relative newness of its equipment. The first of the R-series cars were less than 30 years old, and the oldest of the postwar series were no older than the R-62's and R-68's are today. Combined with the evergreen Standards, this translated into what was probably a better overall fleet than we have today.
The rise of the jet plane had the transAtlantic ship traffic going into its terminal decline. City manufacturing and the Navy Yard were declining.
Add to that the indisputable fact that intercity passenger rail was in a major downward spiral in 1960. Sure, the old Pennsylvania Station still stood, but from what I've heard it was in pretty sorry shape.
I read that Penn Station's 50th anniversary, in November of 1960, went largely unnoticed.
The Triplexes would have said, deferred maintenance - what's that? They hardly needed any to begin with. They would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance and would have kept rolling merrily along while newer equipment would be dropping like flies.
Ridership was on the decline. In addition to the people moving to the 'burbs, etc., etc., the TA was in a cycle of cutting maintenance and service to try to save the 15 cent fare. In turn this made the subway more crowded in rush hours and more difficult to ride during off hours.
As to Penn Station, it was quite declined by the time I could get a good look at it in 1957. I especially remember the arcade, that was the passageway that led from 7th Avenue at 32nd to the center of the station. At that time it was a street level. It was lined with what must have been magnificent shops, by then all closed and dingy.
But for all the decline, the main station was so handsome, so awesome, that even neglect couldn't ruin the experience. Better than Grand Central, IMO.
Try early 1955...the High-V's along with Low-V's on the IRT; the Manhattan (3rd Ave) el at least to Chinatown, crime they cut it short of South Ferry; the entire BMT standard fleet, unmodified, BU's on Myrtle, C's on what was left of Fulton; the 3rd ave el had the remains of the Manhattan el MUDC's (really were IRT) and the Q's;
The R17 and the future to come came mid year.
I'd travel to the year 2347 to witness the simultaneous opening of the
Roosevelt Boulevard Subway in Philadelphia and the 2nd Avenue Subway in New York.
Mark
I'd like to travel to the future, but what is the point of living if you know exactly what happens next?
Now I'd like to be immortal, maybe go into suspended animation when things get boring and wake up for important events.
Being in Chicago, I'd pick a different year: 1941.
*Before the State and Dearborn subways, when **every** CRT train had to use the Loop Elevated.
*Before the termination of the Humboldt Park Branch and the truncation of Westchester service at Forest Park (the latter just months before the area was subdivided and massively developed).
*When Douglas Park Branch trains went all the way to Oak Park Avenue instead of being truncated uselessly at 54th Avenue.
*When streetcars were still running, including PCC cars and including some suburban routes (West Town lines, etc.).
And, most importantly:
*Before the North Shore and the Chicago, Aurora, and Elgin could be killed off in the "autos are the future, rails are the past" 1950s; when there was HOURLY train service between Chicago and Milwaukee.
Would I want to stay a year, or permanently?? Heck, no! I like having the State and Dearborn subways, and rapid transit service that goes west of Logan Square, and L service to the airports. The CTA rail system is MUCH larger than it was in 1941, or 1961, or 1981. Chicago's postwar losses weren't in its rapid transit, it was in the loss of streetcars and the pointless murder of two of the three interurbans right in the middle of suburbanization that now overstuffs the Metra lines closest to the North Shore and CA&E routes. But a visit, with lots of film, would be NICE. :^)
I'd go back to 1975, back in the days of No service and OPEN YARDS, to do abit of steel painting. Oh yea I feel a smile coming on.
I'd go back to 1975, back in the days of No service and OPEN YARDS, to do abit of steel painting. Oh yea I feel a smile coming on.
You might also have felt the impact of that train you didn't see or hear until too late.
HA HA HA-very funny, I'm sure that if I was able to avoid trains of today when I did do whatever, I would be even more able to avoid less service before. So HA
Wasn't that the year that the BMT Lines first started experimenting with a letter system to eventually replace the numbers that had been used since the 20's? If so, that was not such a good year because the BMT was united with the IND and the latter system was strictly a politically inspired second rate system.
The letters came in with the R27s and stuck. The ex-BMT equipment never carried letters, right to the -sob- end.
But R1/9s, 10s and 16s used on the BMT Lines before/after carried number first, letters later. The 1/9s and 10s went back to the IND long before Christie, but the R16s were on the BMT during the changeover period. Anyone know when the R16 rollsigns began carrying "JJ" or "QJ" instead of "15"?
That was during the Chrystie St. change, when the letters became official/universal (and routes like "QJ" were first formed)
What I'm wonderin about now is who really assigned he BMT letters. They first appeared in 1960 with the R-27's, but I'm guessing they may have existed inhouse before that. It would have took time for them to think up these new letters to put on the new cars being ordered. But only a year before that, the Culver was not yet a shuttle, but still had the bridge expresses and tunnel locals from Chambers to Ditmas. This probably would have been the P and PT, if it had lasted another year, or if the letters were assigned a year earlier. So I'm wondering if the NYCTA coined the letter designations when it was formed in 1953 (but it was too late to put them on the forthcoming R-16's). But then you still had a section of Fulton St. running. What would that have been? Or could it have even been the BOT upon unification in 1940? Then you still had the Lexington el and Astoria and Flushing Shuttles. (but this was unlikely. It was probably the TA which created the letters anticipating the physical merger of the divisions.)
So I'm wondering if there is any record of the true origins oif the BMT letters, perhaps as inhouse codes before they were publicized on rollsigns.
I don't think the letters went way back, because they don't follow the IND convention. The IND letter system was carefully thought out, while the BMT system is almost hodgepodge. They lettered the Eastern Section lines first, apparently so they could take advantage of the logic that "J" was Jamaica and "M" was Myrtle-Chambers, but there is no special logic to the Southern Section letters. "QT" and "QB" made some sense, but "MJ" for the Myrtle L, along with "QJ" and "RJ" and the "NX" blow the original logic all to pieces.
The original color coding system also smells of poor planning. They used many more colors: purples, light blue AND dark blue, then laboriously constructed a map where the same color on two different lines wouldn't stop at the same platform. Many of us in and out of the TA at the time thought this was a mess from day one and proposed that colors be keyed to the Manhattan mainlines, which was eventually adopted. BTW, that demonstrates that a mistake doesn't need to be cast in stone.
I'm also curious about the "behind-the-scenes" on the BMT lettering, but having worked with computers and systems types since 1967, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone went to someone in the map department of the TA and said: "Simpson, put down that doughnut and come up with some BMT letters!"
I believe the 'J' in the MJ was supposed to stand for the Myrtle train that went to Jay Street, its downtown Brooklyn terminus. Since they were already planning to scuttle the Myrtle el when they came up with the lettering, I doubt they were too concerned about what they called it.
The 'X' in NX I think was supposed to stand for "express." The QJ got its name because it shared part of its route with the Q and part of its route with the J, which I guess was the same rationale behind the RJ.
Very confusing, but it did make for a very colorful 1967 subway map.
Yes, you've got the internal logic of MJ, QJ, NX, etc., but they don't have a universal logic as was in the original IND system. What I'm saying is that the TA figured they needed/wanted letters, but made it up as they went along.
For that matter the BMT numbering has limited logic: 1-7 Southern Division, 8-9 Queens, 10-16 Eastern.
They assigned 1 to their premier line, 2 to their longest Brooklyn subway and it's logical that 7 put the Brighton-Franklin at "the end of the line." But then the premier Queens line, Corona, should have been 8, but was 9. And 10 should have been for Fulton Street, not the part-time Myrtle-Chambers service.
Eastern Division seems to have been sort of geographically assigned, west to east: 10 Myrtle from Chambers Street, 11 Myrtle via downtown Brooklyn, 12 Lex, 13 Fulton, 14 Canarsie (originally) and 15 Jamaica. Since 14th St. Canarsie was later, it got the last number of 16.
Actually, the 7 Brighton-Franklin, as the highest southern division number, made quite a bit of sense, since the end of the line at the Fulton/Franklin station was the connection to the eastern division.
The lettering of the new post-Chrystie routes was a small problem compared to the routes themselves. The removal of any midday midtown-direct service on the Brighton line, coupled with the idiocy of the RJ, NX and QJ lines (why extend the J instead of the M when the QJ ran during the exact same hours the M did to Broad?) was even worse. Anyone know how the process which led to it was handled?
Out of all the new routes formed in 1967-68,the only ones left are the B,D and F trains. now realy ,WHAT was the point of all the reroutes if only to get ride of them later? if you look at the system today[and with the up coming service changes in JULY],the service patern will look just like it did 34 years ago! What was the point? The express service and super express now days dont exist. the so called express lines we have today a laughable at best. So please, anyone,tell me. WHAT WAS THE POINT?
They didn't plan to get rid of them later. They seemed like nice ideas, tried them out, and the ones that didn't work were ended
It's interesting to see that most of the 1967 lines were gone by 1976 (QJ, NX, RJ, EE, KK, HH, JJ).
The NX only lasted about 5 months, and the RJ about 7!! I guess old riding habits are hard to break. Plus, I was told that the NX superexpress really saved no time for anybody. Those trains always had to wait for an N train to clear a track at the Coney Island Station for the NX to pass through. And what was the TA thinking with the introduction of the RJ?? In the Am rush, how many passengers did they expect to ride from the 4 Ave corridor beyond Chambers or Canal St?? Even when I was a kid and saw the RR Nassau specials, the trains on that abbreviated line were barely full. Still, today, ridership is low on M trains going from Nassau to South Brooklyn (until passengers transfer from other lines at DeKalb, Pacific, or 9 St). Presently, any train following the former EE pattern would generate considerable revenue (especially if the trains originated at 179 Jamaica during the AM rush). I think that extending the R trains to Jamaica 179 in the '80's was a failure because it was always a problem getting the trains TO Jamaica on that long, slow local route. Service patterns from Jamaica certainly would have been more consistent it Broadway trains from Manhattan started at Whitehall St. like the EE and rush hour N's did. Tony
The NX deserves a special footnote in history as being the shortest lived line ever ... went the wrong way out of Brighton Beach to Manhattan. One really has to wonder what kind of brain power it took to get on THAT puppy between Brighton and Coney ... oh yeah, that's why AOL is number one. :)
The "NX" routing was nice in theory, but senseless in reality. The "NX" was supposed to relieve some crowding for the Brighton Line passengers between Brighton Beach and Coney Island by whisking those riders via a Sea Beach-4 Av Superexpress into Manhattan via Bridge instead of those riders going via the "D", "QB" or "QJ" via the Brighton line. There was supposed to be a major time savings for those outer-Brighton passengers, but NO, Like I said before, the "NX"
trains always had to wait for another train to pull out of the Stilwell terminal to pass through. RIP "NX" Nov 1967-April 1968. Still, does anyone out there know what rolling stock was used on the "NX"? Tony
Yeah, it was exclusively those BMT cars that looked like redbirds ... 16's? Same stuff they usually used for the QJ at the time ... I forget. :)
The NX used R27's exclusively, IIRC.
As for why the QJ originally ran to Brighton instead of the M in 1967, according to the map of that year, the M was still only a rush-hour service which terminated at Chambers St. The QJ's provided thru service from Jamaica to Brighton Mon-Fri 6a-8p (I guess back then there was more of a demand for that particular route. Even the RJ's were routed to Jamaica although I once saw a photo of the RJ to 111 St, not 168). And the JJ was an all hours local between Jamaica and Broad St (Canal during rush hours). And it did make for a colorful map!! Tony
The JJ had a dual identity. During rush hours, it covered the old #14 Broadway-Brooklyn local while during other times it was the #15 Jamaica local. I rode on a JJ once, on a Sunday in March of 1968. It was an R-27/30 consist, although I did see a train of BMT standards laid up on the middle track at either 111th St. or 160th St.
That should have been "KK", but since that route would be rerouted up 6th Av. during the 2nd phase, they didn't bother to intoduce the letter (It was on R27-38 igns as "Nassau Local"
That map is a MESS! I have a hard time reading it, and I have a pretty good working knowledge of the subway. Imagine what that must have been like for an out-of towner! That plus the weird alphabet soup must have made for a confusing subway trip.
:-) Andrew
It was an awful map, but a work of art. I bought a mint condition 1973 one on E-bay and had it framed.
The biggest failing of that map is that it was geometrically
abstract and didn't show the relationship of lines to each other
and the surrounding neighborhood. In that regard, the current
map is infinitely better. The color coding issue is separate.
By using the trunk scheme, it avoids cluttering the map with large
multicolored bands in the most crowded area of paper space: Manhattan
That problem gets pushed out to the boroughs.
But what was the point of any of these color-codes now that we
order rolling stock that can't display the colors on the
side or end signs?
I also have a 1958 map, which was even worse. Acording to it, the J runs in a straight line from ENY to Jamaica and the Queens IND never veers off of Queens Blvd at Van Wyck. Not to mention that no letters/numbers were used.
That 1958 map remained in that form until Chrystie St. I have a mint-condition 1964 World's Fair subway map with the same layout. By then, BMT Southern Division routes had letter markings associated with them while the Eastern Division routes did not, even thought the R-16s were still holding down the fort there.
The color codes are used for station signage at platforms and entrances. For tourists I can show them the map and tell them to take the Blue train to the Gray Train and stay on ther Gray train until it meets the Brown Train. (Of course I do tell them the name where to change).
The interior signs still show the color, though I'd like to see what they do on the 143 interiors (not installed yet)-- will they have blue capable signs needed for the white or gray of the L? Or they may just do like the signs at Myrtle wyckoff that use yellow in a red circle.
The TA probably wasn't thinking ahead to LED route signs in 1979. Once enough rolling stock with roll signs is displaced and people start complaining that only red line trains are stopping at 71-Continental and they can't get to work any more, then hopefully either high-intensity multicolored LEDs will be cheap enough, or maybe a colored accent stripe will be added to the sides of the cars.
That of course is one of the reasons I hate the LCD signs on the post-GOH R44 and R46, that plus they suck!
The LEDs on the R142 (and 143 and beyond) are an improvement, but the route color problem is still there.
I've ranted about that a number of times. Suffice to say that the trains themselves are (IMHO) where the route color is needed the most.
Andrew
I have no idea how "Q" refers to Brighton. I guess the letter was just available. But once you accept that "Q" means Brighton, the double letters do kinda make sense. "QB"=Brighton-Bridge. "QT"=Brighton-Tunnel. "QJ"=Brighton-Jamaica. Of course, that last one go corrupted towards the end there (I think) as "QJ" trains were running on Nassau St-Jamaica only.
:-) Andrew
"QB", "QT", "QJ" all had their internal logic, but double-letters on the IND meant a local, which "QJ" wasn't on Bway-Bklyn during rush hours. And the "NX" was more express than the "N".
Maybe the real flaw was with the original IND system which didn't conceive of having to deal with a less orderly route network.
Heh. Order and reason was what the IND was all about. It was those Brooklyn guys that played the "anything can happen day" routing games. :)
I wonder who came up with using "T" for the West End Line. "R" for the Broadway 4th Ave. local and "L" for the 14th Street Canarsie line.
BMTJeff
That was probably because the Queens service was prvided primarily by the Brighton. Queens Blvd was covered by the QT, and the Q express went to Astoria. (it was a year after the letters appeared that the express was cut out of Queens, and the locals went to Astoria.
Also, I meant to include that the fact that "P" was skipped is evidenced that it was reserved for the Culver, but at the last minute the Culver became a permanent shuttle, so it was left out. This suggests that the letters were assigned a few years before they appeared on the signs.
This is a better reason for the omission of the letter than it's sounding like a bodily function, as it was suggested here (It was used in San Francisco and other places), although I could see the double letter being avoided (so the local probably would have been the PT, since it also went through the tunnel)
I don't think the letters themselves had anything to do with destinations. (In other words, "Q" did not stand for anything beginning with the letter Q). The letters just stand for certain routings, just like they did on the IND and the numbers on the IRT. I even think "J" for Jamaica or "M" for Myrtle is just a coincidence.
But apparently, they tried to match the letters and lines as much as possible.
I've always wondered why the Sea Beach got the letter "N" in 1964. The fact that it has always been my favorite letter certainly helps the cause but the why it got it continues to elude me. Of course, I liked it better when the BMT had numbers before they joined it with the sorry IND lines.
I wish I could figure that one out. My guess is that "N" would be the most suitable designation for the Sea Beach Line train at the time.
BMTJeff
No coincidence- As the Myrtle el had [on the map at least.]the MJ designation for 'Myrtle-Jay'....
That plus the "J" started as the "QJ" (didn't it?), with the "J" part meaning this was the version of the Brighton line which went to Jamaica.
:-) Andrew
That is correct. Initially, QJ trains ran Mon-Fri 6 AM-8 PM. Beginning on July 1, 1968, they began running 24/7, terminating at Broad St. during evenings, nights, and weekends. On August 18, they (along with the QB) swapped Brooklyn terminals with the D, running all the way to Coney Island when the D ran express along the Brighton line.
Prior to the Chrystie Street opening route letters were in use only on the Southern Division routes of the BMT;
#1 Brighton--M.Q,OB,OT
#2 Fourth Avenue--M,RR,S
#3 West End--T,TT
#4 Sea Beach--N
#5 Culver and #7 Franklin Avenue were still using Standards but if an R-type were assigned it would have displayed SS.
Effective with the Chrystie Street openning in November 1967 route letters were assigned to all BMT routes.
JJ was used for the former #14 Bway-Bklyn Short Line which ran rush hours only and for the former #15 Jamaica Lcl which ran M-F 12mid-6am amd 8pm-12 mid as well as all day Sat and Sun. This lasted until July 1968 when 57/6 openned and the KK assumed the former #14 services and the former JJ/15 services was now included in the QJ.
LL was used for the former #16
M was used for the former #10
MJ was used for the former #11 though it was never displayed on the cars only on the maps,this lasted until October,1969.
N was used for the former #4
NX was a new service between 57/7 and Brighton Beach via Sea Beach express tracks. This only lasted until April, 1968
QB was the remnant of the former #1 between 57/7 and Brighton Beach
via Bridge.
QJ was used for the Jamaica-Brighton service M-F 6a-8p, stating July 1968 it was used for all Jamaica-Nassau St trains.
RJ was used for the Fourth Av-Jamaica service, this lasted until July 1968 when it was replaced by Chambers St-95 St RR trains.
RR was used for the former #2 Broadway-4 Av Lcl and after June 1968 for the Nassau-4 Av service.
SS was used for the Culver and Franklin Av Shuttles and starting in Ocotober 1969 for the Myrtle Av Shuttles.
TT was used for the former #3 West End Shuttles which continued to operated M-Sat from 12mid-6am and 8p-12mid and all day Sunday. This ran up until July 68 when all B trains were run to Manhattan.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-16's were delivered with the IND letter designations.
All promo pictures from the time show A train destinations.
The 15 Jamaica may have been on the same roll, but I don't think they were.
I'm afraid that BMT letters had to be after 1955!
At a minimum I saw R16's signed and running on 10, 11, 15 and 16. I don't know if they ever had Southern Division numbers.
#11 was the Myrtle-Jay el. The R-16s couldn't have run there.
I should have said 10, 14, 15, 16.
Memory better than math brain. I hate when I do that.
I assume the R-16 roll signs were changed to the color-coded designations in 1967 with the Chrystie St. opening. There was also a green "MM 6 ave Local". Ironically there were no "RJ", "NX" or "TT" designations (and they were on the 1967 map). During the early '80's, I used to manually turn those side roll signs in the "J" trains (they were incorrectly marked orange "JJ" as there was no "J" designation from 1967-72). Come to think of it, the r27-30's still had the old black background designations with "Q", "QT", "T". I also remember on the R-32's and 38's, there originally was no "B" designation. The "BB" signs had a tacky a piece of black tape covering 1 "B" or a taped "B" over the "BB"!! TOny
The R-16s got the same multicolored bulkhead route curtains the R-32s and R-38s did. They also received multicolored side route curtains, something no other cars received. They needed new curtains anyway, since their original curtains had number designations.
I vivdly remember the pasted-over B signs on the R-32s.
Riding on the Brighton "M" many moons ago, I think the head roll signs on the R-27-30's had their "MM" black-taped-over to read " M".
Also, there were on the R27, 30, 32, 38, signs reading "KK Nassau St. Local". I don't understand why the MTA is so hesitant to reuse old letters such as "T", "K" etc. How will it confuse the public? Who in Jamaica still remembers the "K" of the '70's? And what regular passengers today associate the "T" as the West End of 1960-67??( Except people like us!!) Honestly, I've heard from people old enough that even during the mid-60's, nobody regularly referred to the routes as "Gee, I ride the "QT"...." It was more like "I ride the Brighton..." Tony
In fact, the TA did reuse the K, as the short-lived single-letter replacement for the AA. A few weeks ago I even saw a train signed as a K, only it was running express.
Tonight I lucked out and got to ride the Bombardier version of the R-142.My first ride was a short one from 219th street to East 180th street and the train went out of service!!! I got on at Times Square station as the train pulled in.It was jammed packed but I lucked out and got a seat next to two strikingly beautiful women!!!The strip maps were working, the signs were working properly above.As the train moved out of Times Square, it moved quietly no shrill high pitch noise, a commonplace on the R-142A.The train moved very quickly between Times Square and 96 street.To me the R-142 gives a smoother ride than the R-142A.We got up around 219th Street, and of course there was congestion ahead as always on this line during rush hour, an automated annoucement came on explaining the delay.At 233rd street, the conductor made the congestion annoucement using one chime and he was very clear.At 238 street a woman made a station annoucement Nereid Avenue, she pronouced it wrong I think she should just say 238th Street instead.The train pulled in to 241 Street a group of supervisors walked in and stood around the cab I talked to one of them, he told me they will add another R-142 sometime next week. He said they were testing these out in passenger service.I have to ride the R-142 a few more times before I compare trains. Of the bat the R-142A's have a more cleaner appearance more brighter on the outside, The R-142's ride better, no candy smell like the R-142A's I like the candy smell, I like the artwork in the R-142A's they should put different paintings in the R-142's they have a space that could be used for that.They have the same announcers as the R-142A a woman and a man. The woman sounds like Dianne Thompson from Bloomberg radio not too sure about the man.
I believe at least one of them is from Bloomberg radio....but I thought it was the male voice. The only thing that annoys me about the announcements is that the "stand clear of the closing doors please" gets very annoying, especially on a local train. It would be nice if we had a variety of voices with this announcement...they could roate them automatically so you don't get tired of hearing the same person. -Nick
Seriously - don't you think the man sounds just a bit too polite? I tell you, this really seems like some sort of a classic New York-syle tongue in cheek practical joke, with an electronic husband-and-wife duo, the wife announcing the stations and the husband kindly asking people to stand clear of the doors!
But why don't they make it like the cabs - each time, a different person (usually a celebrity) telling you to buckle up.
I could see it now -
Robert DeNiro - "I'm only gonna say this once: Stand clear of the stinking doors or I'll bust your head!"
Jerry Seinfeld - "Hey fatso, stand clear of the doors!"
Michael Richards (Kramer) - "STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS, OR YOU'LL HAVE TO ANSWER TO ME, BUDDY! YEAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Any others, or should I quit while I'm ahead?
Jersey Devil,
I think celebrity voices are a great idea, but politeness, as dull as it may seem, is necessary. We live in a big city, and we want our community and visitors to have a good reputation about the big apple. Perhaps you could get away with a few things with Deniro, or other "tough guys", as long as they don't get carried away. I wouldn't mind hearing David Letterman, Joe Torre (and perhaps other sports people) to do the door closings as well. -Nick
I think both the male and female announcers are from Bloomberg radio.
Off peak when there are fewer people getting on and off conductors sometimes cut the announcements short by closing the doors as soon as passenger loading/unloading is done. "This is a Bronx-bound six train, the next .... (ding-dong)"
Barcelona's metro also had alternating male and female automated announcements, but they switched off mid-sentence:
Female: Next station...
Male: ... (station name) ...
Female: Transfer to (etc etc)
Due to a smoke condition in Bklyn, we got turned at Chambers. My train was right behind the R142. Looks like this summer will have unusual car moves in th IRT. Some of the car moves have already begun.......
Correct! I was in the booth at 59th St when the call came over the radio for a service suspension in Brooklyn. Station Supervision called it a Track Fire, RTO called it a Stalled Train, go figure.
1651-1660 have been bumped to the 1. They have not had Red Stickers applied as of yet.
With 1881-1900 on the 3, this leaves 1671-1880 still on the 6. It would seem the Reign of the R-62A on the Pelham Line is coming to an end.
I bumped into an occasional SubTalk Poster, who confirmed he saw 9486 and 87 at 207 St, some weeks ago, stripped of salvageable components. Is this the first official active passenger car retirement? 9540 and 41's future also looks bleak, as they are not on the active roster.
-Stef
There are also about three Pelham sets and one VC set up at Unionport for the 5 train. I think the car numbers on the 5 is 1696-1700 and 1851-55. Im up at Dyre today so I will find out for sure.
I meant to say one trainset is 1696-1700 and 1851-55 together.
Yes, 1696-1700 and 1851-55 are together as I operated this train up to Dyre yesterday.
The days of Redbirds and R62A's are coming to an end on the No.6 Line. Right now it does look like the R36's are the first to go and the R62A's being moved to the No.1,3,5 Lines then some of the trains will be on there way to the No.7 Line. It looks like the cars going to the No.7 Line will come from the No.3 Line since they have single cars and the No.3 will get the Pelham cars which are linked 5 and 5 making the No.3 a 10 car line. Also cars from the No.1 Line will also go to the No.7 Line. So the No.7 would have 1 5 car unit and 6 singles.
As for the R142A's on the No.6 Line they are getting the bugs out of them and they are running good. Right now cars Nos. 7221-7360 are in service. Thats about 13 trains. By the end of the summer we should be in the 7400's.
That's good to know. At least the 142As are in order. But seriously, would a linked 5 car set and 6 single units work on the 7? Why not a 5 linked-1 single-5 linked combination?
-Stef
>>Why not a 5 linked-1 single-5 linked combination?<<
Too many singles lying around. Why link up anything you don't need to?
Let's see. Linking is the norm so I figured that they would do it at some point. Is there any reason why they wouldn't link more cars?
-Stef
Wow, 13 trains of R142As. That means it must be pretty easy to catch an R142A on the 6 now. So the 6 line is transfering all of its linked R62A sets to the 3 line and the 3 in turn is transfering all of its single R62As to the 7, am I right? And several linked R62A sets are going to be transferred from the 1 to the 7, is that also right?
Will that leave enough R62A cars for the 1, 3 and 7 lines to operate with the same amount of service they operate with now? I would think that only R142s are going to be on the 5, meaning that the Dyre Shuttle will no longer use R62As.
I took the 1 from 42nd to 34th today and I only saw 3 trains with the blue markers. Nothing unusual. I was only there for a matter of minutes though on a small stretch of track...
You board a train, sit next to TWO "strikingly beautiful women", and you only pay attention to the train. If you're not already attached, then I'm rather disappointed. Tsk tsk.
"Tonight I lucked out and got to ride the Bombardier version of the R-142.My first ride was a short one from 219th street to East
180th street and the train went out of service!!! I got on at Times Square station as the train pulled in.It was jammed packed but I
lucked out and got a seat next to two strikingly beautiful women!!"
East coast transit systems are great places to meet women. Subway, LIRR, you name it. Before I finally met my wife I got a few phone numbers for the price of a token or LIRR ticket...
"I lucked out and got a seat next to two strikingly beautiful women!!!"
Qtraindash7 would like to know if they were mystical !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
kewl. on the next ride for comparison, you will notice no squeaks and rattles, and the female voice announcements will sound more energetic and friendly than the R142A,and no squeaky breaks.i luv the candy smell, this ones smells more like plastic and air conditioner.
This Morning the first R-142 train with the so-called "Swedish Fix" went into service on the 2 line.
This is a modification developed in cooperation with personnel from the Stockholm system who have similar cars, and had a similar problem with the braking system. Modifications have been made to improve reliability of the automated announcement and signage system as well.
Car numbers are 6421-6430.
If this is successful additional trains will be re-introduced at the rate of about once a week for a month or two.
(Again) IF the cars are more successful this time, I (ahem!) "SPECULATE" that the R-33s now on the 2 line will gradually migrate to the 5 and at some point the R-26/28s and GE R-29s will be making their last trips.
This phase-out would require upwards of 40 trains to accomplish, so it will likely take quite a while.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I got back from a day trip to Miami this evening. First time actually going into the city, but I used to have to layover at the airport back in the day to travel to Brazil. Unfortunatly, I never got to ride the Metrorail elevated subway, but I did get to ride almost all of the Metromover, which was interesting. Bottom line, the Metromover is the sister system of the Hartsfield people mover. The Metromover has the same Westinghouse equipment, they even sound the same. The part of the line around Third Street and Riverwalk stations looked almost like a rollercoaster with the dips and hills on it. It was really cool to look at. I aslo got a great view of the elevated subway from the area around 5th and 8th St stations. I used to think I knew how the guidway at Hartsfield worked, but now after seeing the Metromover, it's not what I thought: there is a steel I-beam under the power supply that serves as a track for rubber tires mounted sideways to guide the cars. I used to think that the power supply aslo acted as the guide rail. Now that I know how my Hartsfield cars look like on the outside from all directions, I can say that they are quite goofy looking. Riding past the Gov't Center stop, the loop runs right by the mataninence shop, which was cool to look at.
I really wish I got to ride the elevated subway, but we rented a car so we could go to see the beach and to get to the Brazilian Consulate (my reason for going in the first place). The subway looks fast, but very unused. The headways, from what I could tell were about 10 minutes, which is long for a weekday.
I ate lunch at the Gourmet Carrot, a nice little bistro in front of Gov't Center, I recommend it. I thought the downtown area was a little too heavy on the parking lots, and the buildings were spread too far apart for a city of that size. The whole place felt more suburban than I imagined. At Miami Int'l Airport (MIA), I used Concourse H, which is a very good looking concourse, it's way better than the last ime I was there, about 11 or 12 years ago.
Along with several other SubTalkers, Jr. and I attended the National Trolley Meet in Pennsauken, NJ this weekend. Quite a few dealers were there with many good books (I bought more than I should have), lots of videos (including fellow SubTalker Mark Feinman and his subway tapes), and a good number of streetcar models, about evenly divided between O and HO scale. Subway models were in short supply - just a few in HO and two in N. A number of layouts were there, including an N scale layout with operating catenary modeled after the NE Corridor - very well done - and SubTalker David Harrison's HO scale Amtrak layout. Other SubTalkers in attendance were chuchubob, Conrad Misek, D-Train Derek, and at least one other whose name and face escapes me at the moment - my apology in advance for being so forgetful. There was a slide show Friday night that we missed and an excellent presentation on SEPTA's Kawasaki cars Saturday night.
On Sunday, there was a fan trip on the Media and Sharon Hill lines, which radiate from the 69th Street Terminal - traditional interurban lines, with private ROW through the country and both side-of-road and street running. Mark will probably have a video available soon :-) and I'll have some photos on the web in a few days - I shot about 70 Kodachromes that should be back from the lab tomorrow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On Sunday, there was a fan trip on the Media and Sharon Hill lines, which radiate from the 69th Street Terminal - traditional interurban lines, with private ROW through the country and both side-of-road and street running. Mark will probably have a video available soon :-) and I'll have some photos on the web in a few days - I shot about 70 Kodachromes that should be back from the lab tomorrow.
I'm watching it now, and got about 1/2 way through it. What I've seen so far came out GREAT!!
I decided, since our fantrip ended at 2pm, to extend "my fantrip" a few hours, so I drove to 30th St station (the Market/Frankford El was not running between 69th St and 15th St due to signal work), parked the car and took the streetcar to 15th St, then took a round trip on the Market/Frankford line. Videotaped the ride back to 15th St. Got some runbys at 15th St. Met two nice SEPTA police officers :) at the end of the day, as I was leaving, asking if I had a video permit, which of course I didn't. But after telling them about the earlier fantrip, which they knew about, they wished me a nice day.
And it was!
--Mark
I dropped by on Saturday. It was nice but the many empty tables were a little disappointing. It makes the $20 price tag a little harder to swallow. Other than that, the show was good quality, but I miss seeing Jim Sparkman's Fallon Street El in its greater glory (a short section was there, but a notice was up that work is being done on it).
We always have an extra row of empty tables, just in case we need an extra couple for the clinics, in case they're needed at the layouts, or in case a dealer has miscalculated the number he needs. And yes, it was a disappointment not having more of Jim's el there... word was that his usual crew of assistants weren't available to help transport it this year. But I still had a good time... and I spent most of the show working registration (just as well, it kept me from overspending any more than I did).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I had a good time. Nice to see people I rarely see anymore. Had to field alot of questions about "when the Shaker cars were coming", but I enjoyed that. My dad was there too. Saw one of his brass Electroliner kits in O for sale ($750!!) Made us wonder whether we should reissue it.
The modules and layouts were fantastic this year!!
Jan, glad you posted... I knew I was forgetting someone who was there, it was you and your Dad. (Bobw mentioned he was there also but I didn't happen to see him - at least not that I recall.) We'll do it again in two years...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I had a good time. Nice to see people I rarely see anymore. Had to field alot of questions about "when the Shaker cars were coming", but I enjoyed that. My dad was there too. Saw one of his brass Electroliner kits in O for sale ($750!!) Made us wonder whether we should reissue it.
The modules and layouts were fantastic this year!!
Today I saw an interesting sign on the F train while waiting for the F making all stops at Chruch ave and the train I got off was suddenly displaying this afteer the announcement "LISTEN TO ANOUNCMT--SKIP-STOP" does anyone ave the complete list of whats in the memory bank of the electronic signs on these two car types?
yes
Can I obtain a listing from you, please?
Don't hold your breath. It's 1100 different codes (40 pages), since it has not only current lines, but also all sorts of possible routings, lines like the upcoming V and W were programmed in yesrs before they would start, and it has every station in the BMT south and IND without route. I hope to scan my copy soon, and then I'd have to see if I need permission to post or make a web page of them.
They also have weird listings like A to Brighton Beach and X to World Trade Center via 6 Avenue.
Over the years, the NY Division of the ERA has published the list in its Bulletin newsletter. Another great reason to join NYD/ERA. (But I'm sure you can find back issues in the Sprague Library, run by the ERA, located in Grand Central Terminal.)
Exactly where in GCT, Todd?
I believe it's up on one of the upper floors, and is only open one evening a week. Perhaps one of our NYD ERA officers lurking out there can help with this one.
Perhaps one can...
ERA is located on the fourth floor of Grand Central Terminal, in the northwest quadrant. It's accessible by elevator from the platform level or the lower level. The phone number is 212-986-4482, and it's open Monday evenings. For entry at other times, make an appointment by calling the number I just provided (and leaving a message).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I am a ERA Member #6510-R, but never got the BULLETIN with the R46 codes :(
It wasn't one Bulletin - it was a series of them.
--Mark
Thy ran from 1994 to 1998. I just took my old copies spanning this period back to the library last week (cleaning out my files), so they should be there.
Since they were the only oines to publish the listings, they are the ones I would have to get permission from to scan and publish them online.
is there anyways you cansend them to me? I'd appreciate it, I'm doing a project that would require this info, like your R-68 signs or something like that, thanks in advance
Tuesday , I had a north bound "A" to Dyckman St. I guess it was going to the yard after Dyckman. Time was about 8:30 ish in the A.M.
avid
oh thats rather common, i've seen that many times, always curious why the A would terminate at Dyckman.
Yech! I despise those signs! But I will admit they are versatile. 1100 readings huh? Very impressive.
:-) Andrew
they aint that bad, when they work (display all the letters in full figure, not partial like a broken calculator)
I was sitting on a M train on the middle track at Myrtle-Broadway around 9:30 or so. An out of service train came in on the manhattan bound side. I didn't bother to notice if they were R40M's or R42's or any car numbers, but I was looking for the Enabler diamond. Several of the cars had scratch marks under the number plate which look like where the diamond should be, but was scraped off. There was one car in the consist that did still have the Enabler diamonds on it.
I'm wondering why the other diamonds were scratched off and where they were heading. I figured they must be heading to Coney Island but I'm not too sure.
Does anyone have any info on this? It's not much detail to work on, but pretty interesting I guess.
Thanks
Shawn
For what I have been hearing is the some T/O & C/R are emoving them and removing the light and botton tops from the cars. They don't like them so they try to make it harder to see if the train have all the cars with or without it. As for the light I saw that they are right in the bottom line of site when you are opp. the train so they take out the lights so they can't see them. I was told that I shoud report the cars befor my time if they are like this, so they can figure out who might be doing it.
Robert
Oh goody. Maybe the enablers themselves will join the discarded diamonds.
I saw something that I thought was totally odd this morning on my way to work. I was on a 1 train heading towards Manhattan. Near 207th street, where there's that connection to the 207th street overhaul shop and the yard over there I saw a work train that consisted of two rider cars at each end, didn't catch their number and a car in the middle number S02. It was painted in the usual yellow and black work car color scheme. It had huge doors in the center. In addition to that it had H2C spray painted in black at each end, which I understand is the type of coupler. It had some other words spay painted on it but I didn't get to see it very long.
Does anyone know what this car is or what is it's function? It looked really strange. I can't find any mention of it in the work cars section.
Thanks
Shawn
Hey Shawn, long time no hear!
The train you saw was the Signal Dolly work train, consisting of R-22 Work Motors (not Rider Cars, which are motorless and pulled by diesel), and two Motorless Signal Dollies, S01 and S02. Their usage relates to the Signal Syetem, diagnostics for argument sake.
R-22s, 7307, 7366, 7371, 7420, and 7460 are all used to make up two separate trains.
-Stef
Hi again Stef... been away from SubTalk for a while. Thanks for the correction and information.
I wonder where they were doing work on the singal system that required the use of the signal dolly.
Anyway... the signal dollies are definately strange looking cars :)
Thanks again
Shawn.
The Signal Dollies are used to transport material to Signal Quarters located trackside throughout the system. They are not used for diagnostics of any sort. One of their regular stops is N/B just north of 14 St/ 7 Ave (1/9) at the roll door in the wall.
I wasn't really sure what their exact function was, but thanks for clearing that up. Are they using one dolly or two right now?
-Stef
While the R142s are just making their return to the #2, I know that the # of R142As have increased little by little on the #6. How much closer are the R62As as far as moving to the #7 is concerned? -Nick
At this point no one knows. There are now Pelham R62a's cars on the 1,3, and 5 lines. Who knows when they will make it to Shea......
Let's hope the 62A's they send to the 7 have the REAL railfan windows (i.e. the singles from the 3).
Before that happens, the remaining 62As on the mainline need to be linked. With 40 or so units remaining in single form, your chances of cathcing a railfan window are highly unlikely, since transverse cabs will be the norm, even on the single units.
Sending additional R-62As to the 3 enables the line to go to 10 cars, and to allow for the linking of the remaining units. This doesn't address the issue of how the Shuttle Car Assignments will be, but a good guess, is that a dedicated few will remain single for that line.
-Stef
It's totally a fantasy of mine, but I was wondering how other people feel. Does anyone else think that it would be a good idea to rebuild the shuttle to be atleast 4 cars on each track with straight platforms at each end. It would be better with 5 cars of course, because then any line can donate some 5 car set R62(A)'s the to the shuttle. I believe the Grand Central side is capable of this. Time Square is a complete mess. The Times Square end of the shuttle should be completely rebuilt. I think that the ridership of the shuttle would warrant such a change. During construction you could easily setup a walking street level transfer by issuing block tickets or perhaps a free transfer between Grand Central and Time Square. Also, people who are truely lazy can take the 7, even though it would be around 10 times faster to just walk.
Shawn.
Well, if you tore down that room in the path of Track 1, that track could fit 5 cars (it currently holds 3). Then extend the platform over Track 2 one car length, then you'd have Track 3's platform at 5 cars. Track 4 is rather tricky. There is an extension north of where the current 3-car train stops. However, there might be a fouling point between that part and the track that carries passing 1 trains. I would suggest move all Times Square operations to Track 2 (that would involve moving track 3's platform from over track 2 to track 3). Tracks 2 and 4 would share an island platform 5 cars long, while the existing entrance on Track 4's platformwould remain.
I, however, would object to eliminating the curve. That's a piece of subway history you're messing with there. To remove the curve would remove the link with the West Side (Used by Track 4). I don't think the curve should go. Hey, Times Square used to be a local stop (2 tks, 2 plats), so the existing track 3 platform isn't original.
If they modify the shuttle to fit 5 cars, it should use the 110A's
They have to build wide platform covering Tracks 2 and 3, make the connection prior to Times Square between Tracks 3 and 4 to make possible to arrive trains from Track 3 and open the doors from trains on Tracks 1 and 4 to the middle wide platform. Trains on Track 3 and 4 will share the same platform at Times Square but have different arrivals at Grand Central. While the train from Track 3 at Times Square, train from Track 4 is at Grand Central and when the train from Track 4 at Times Square, train from Track 3 at Grand Central.
The same could be done between Tracks 1 and 2 (i.e. connect them prior to Times Square).
A 5 Car Setup would be in order. I believe someone posted some months ago that it was being proposed to modify the shuttle to accept 5 car units and abandon Track 4. Whether that will be the case is anyone's guess. I will say that it'll become even more possible to convert even more 62As to 5 car unit status.
A walking transfer? Heh. I propose a moving platform for the customers. Wouldn't that be a blast....
Look at this way. The shuttle as short as it may be, is an absolutely necessary ride for folks getting from Point A to Point B. Can they do without the shuttle even for reconstruction? One wonders.
-Stef
A walking transfer? Heh. I propose a moving platform for the customers. Wouldn't that be a blast....
Don't laugh - there was such a proposal in the late 50s ....
--Mark
If you're planning to rebuild the shuttle, why not do what the MTA should have done when they rebuilt the Grand Central end and move the Grand Central terminus a few hundred feet east, so that the shuttle stop can be within the same station as the 4/5/6/7. As it is the transfer is rather ridiculous and takes far too long to be of much use.
Dan
While we were at it, maybe it would be a good idea to connect the (S) tracks with those of the (7), enabling the movement of equipment much more easily and making the (7) generally less isolated.
:-) Andrew
Soon I hope. When, I don't know.
Imagine. A comfortable ride on the (7), without the jerky motion and with a LOT less screeching, and with a working air conditioner. Too good to be true!
:-) Andrew
Well said! -Nick
Well I just had a super NYC transit dream and it was made even better by the fact that I haven't ridde the NYCS much. Here's what happened.
I was taking a non-NYC friend to NYC for the first time and I wanted to ride the subway, specifically the Q train for the Slants. Anyway we get on the train and I basically forget I'm on a subway train cause I'm talking and stuff. The car is about 15 feet wide and there is pew seating w/ isles on both sides. Suddenly I realize that I'm in a subway train AND a Q for that matter so I look to the railfan window. To mysurprise the slant door is there AND there in NO motorman's cab and NO motorman. There was like a console w/ some stoff on it like a speedo, but no cab. Also, when I stied the sliding front storm door in front it roened letting me get a blast of wind.
I was going to Penn Station and my train finally went into a tunnel somewhere in Manhattan. Once underground things really got wierd. All around the tunnel one could see HUGE elevator shafts and huge elevators going up and down in them. At one time the train stopped in front of a 20 foot gap in the tracks and waited for an elevator to pass. We finally get to the end of the line and I thought I'd have to like catch a local back to Penn Station, then I notice the signs and I see that the Q train has terminated at the "31st. St/New Jersey Transit" station. I go above ground and there is an Entrance to the NJT part of Penn Station right there. I walk down the St. a bit and go in through an alternate NJT entrance. I get in and am looking at the departure obard when I realize that I need a LIAR train so I head w/ my friend to the LIAR level and then the dream sort of fell appart.
Being sick sucks, but the dreams you get sure rock.
Bizarre is right! I love dreaming about familiar things, because you're guaranteed to get some interestingly strange and different takes on everyday life. Such as having a 15 ft. wide subway train or a 31st. St/NJ Transit station or elevators around and in the subway tunnels. Thank god for the subconscious.
Dan
Man. The variety of weed down at Wesleyan is better than up at UHA!!!!
Hey Mike - email me some day, and maybe I'll come down and visit you on the Harley. I'm getting sick of circling the hartford /Springfield area :(
In my version of that dream, the elevators take me to different time periods but the same place. Oh and occasionally I have to get out and walk.
I have had some personal email to do the SIR one more time so Monday May 21st I will host another trip down to Tottenville on the Staten Island Railway.
Here's the kicker, for those that want we can return from the wilds for Staten Island via the X1 express bus and ride an MCI Coach.
Here is the general plan, details to be modifed:
Two departure times, we meet in Eltingville for those that can make the eariler boat we are stopping for dinner.
5:30pm Boat
5:55pm Arrival St. George
6:02pm EXPRESS Train #94, Detrain at Eltingville
6:19pm
6:19pm to 6:50 Dinner at Burger King or Pizza Joint or Bagel Shop or whatever.
For those that can't make the 5:30pm boat you can try the
5:45 take the express train to Eltingville 2nd stop
or the 6:00pm boat take express train to Eltingville 2nd stop
or the 6:15 boat DO NOT GET OFF THE TRAIN
The people from the 5:30 boat and any meeting in Eltingville will reboard at Eltingville at 7:13pm (this is trian 106 from the 6:15 South Ferry Boat).
We will travel to Tottenville 7:29pm. There is the 7:37pm return trip to St. George making the 8:30pm boat with arrival at South Ferry 8:55pm. If people want to explore Tottenville the next train is 8:07 for the 9:00pm boat arriving at South Ferry at 9:25pm. But you won't be taking the MCI Bus, Did I say BUS??
AND FOR YOU BUS FANS, we will be getting off at Eltingville at 7:51pm for a ride back on the X1 express bus. They depart Richmond Ave Terminal at 8:00 arriving 6th Ave CPS at 9:22pm (you can get off anywhere along the run). The next bus is at 9pm, too long a wait if we miss the 7:37 train.
COST:
Ferry FREE,
St. George SIR $1.50 outbound or transfer within 2 hours.
SIR Eltingville and Tottenville FREE
X1 $3.00 (no unlimted passes) if you paid St. George we just miss teh 2 hour transfer limit.
For those returning to St. George instead of the X1 $1.50 SIR at St. George but free transfer in Manhattan.
Please feel free to comment or make suggestions. This is just off the top of my head.
Thanks.
Any other Monday but that one? Elsewise, I'll just miss it again.
I was doing research on the G line yesterday while looking through the "pseudo-railfan window" of R46 car 6110. Northbound on the G line at the Nassau Avenue station, I saw the following signs:
4 6 OPTO-S 7 8 10. The 6 and OPTO-S signs were hanging from the same place in the station, with 6 above OPTO-S. Anyway, in case you missed it, let me point out again that there was a 7 stop sign (white with a black 7 on it) at this station.
This is not the only place such signs hang. One hangs near the southbound local tracks at both 65th Street and Continental Avenue (I have a photo of the latter. Look below at picture 17-25.)
I have also seen on the southbound local track at DeKalb Avenue a stop sign with a 3 on it. That's right, not an 8, a 3. IIRC, the 8 hangs with the 10, and the 3 hangs by itself.
What's with all these old signs with numbers of cars that are now impossible with the advance of married pairs and 4-car sets? The R10s were the last singles to run on the B Division. Now that they're gone, all that's left are the married pairs, the 4-car sets, and the 75 foot cars. What's with all these old stop signs that are useless now?
No one is in charge of removing old signs, so they just sort of hang around. Other strange things to watch for are Speed Restrictions signs that don't agree with other signs in the area, ie leaving South Ferry there is a '10 Miles' followed by a 'SERIES' sign (the only one in the whole system as far as I know) followed by '15 MILES' sign. At this point, I can go no faster than 15 mph and may not advance the Controller beyond Series. The next sign in the progression is an 'ST 20', whichmeans if I do 20mph (or less) and ther is a train at Rector St, the next signal will clear to yellow and allow me to approach the train ahead. But, since I can't go faster than 15 mph, what is the point of the ST sign?
Where were the subway scenes filmed in the movie "Coming to America"?
Near the end, you see Prince Akeem chasing his girlfriend into an (F) train (I think) from Van Wyck Blvd to maybe Sutphin.
:-) Andrew
I don't believe those were the actual stations. Both are local stops with outside platforms while one of the stations in the movie was an express stop. The tilework looked an awful lot like that of Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
I think they doctored the station. It looked like an express station with red stripes, which is Parsons Blvd., but the black tiles on the wall said Suthpin. Also, it seemed they were in the tunnel between stations much longer than the time alloted to travel and they were moving the entire time.
Give me a call buddy, I'm at the same #
Mark
The station (Sutphin) may have been Hoyt-Schermerhorn with a major tile job, at least that's what I always thought.
Though it is an R-38 on the E, which seems correct for the time period they were filming...
That is possible. I only saw it once and I wasn't sure where it was filmed, except Sutphin is not an express station. Considering its access to the transit museum, that would be a logical conclusion.
Was not the apartment building that Arsenio Hall and Eddie Murphy first stay in in Queens near the now-gone Jamaica el, which we see a train zoom by on right before they arrive to the building?
Not possible. The film was shot in 1986, but the el's final closure, Queens Blvd and Metropolitan Ave, was in April 1985. The section east of 121 St. was immediatly closed off to any trains. It could be the el farther west. Or it could be the M line or the Astoria el, which had R30's running on the R at the time.
They sure took their sweet time dismantling that portion, though. I drove under it in October of 1988 and it was still mostly intact.
You probably drove under the only elevated crackhouse in NYC....LOL.
The white on black signs in the neighborhood say Brooklyn.
Yeah. I noticed that too. You gotta wonder why they didn't just find a similar street in Queens.
:-) Andrew
The cabbie (played by bodybuilder Jake Steinfeld) takes them a "typical part of Queens" at Broadway and Hooper Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn- witness the black street signs. Hence the R-30 traveling by on the Broadway el. Moviegoers in Queens obviously knew this was NOT their home borough and booed at this scene all three times I saw it in theatres.
What's funny is that the movie depicts that corner as a devastated slum, whereas it was nowhere near that bad today or back in 1988. Congested, yes, but mostly a working class combination of Latinos and Hasidim.
The 'McDowell's restaurant' they work at is clearly on Queens Boulevard west of Broadway in Elmhurst.
That was a McDonalds, doctored to look like McDowell's. (It is still there). You can clearly see the Sage Diner accross Queens Blvd.
I thought it was a Wendys.
Whatever the case, at least these scenes were sctually in Queens.
:-) Andrew
There is a McDonald's and a Burger King on that side of Queens Blvd. I am not aware of a Wendey's being there, however, it has been a while since I passed by there.
It's the Wendy's at Queens Blvd & Broadway. There's a McDonald's not too far away, and it can occasionally be seen in the background in the movie. Direct competition!
But like I said, at least the Wendy's/McDowells is actually in Queens!
:-) Andrew
The cabbie (played by bodybuilder Jake Steinfeld) takes them a "typical part of Queens" at Broadway and Hooper Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn- witness the black street signs. Hence the R-30 traveling by on the Broadway el. Moviegoers in Queens obviously knew this was NOT their home borough and booed at this scene all three times I saw it in theatres.
At least it wasn't as bad as Jackie Chan's Rumble in the Bronx, where the snow-capped mountains of British Columbia were plainly visible in the background!
Where most movies have their scenes shot, at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The train was a borrowed pre-GOH R38 from the A line, signed as an E. As a kid seeing this movie in the theatre, I found this highly unusual, as I had never ridden anything but an R46 on the E or F.
Anyone know what elevated line was used in the background in the scenes filmed outside the prince's slum? Looks like R27/R30 cars which passed by, but not enough to see which route.
The R-38s made their debut on the E and F lines. I saw an E train of R-38s once during rush hour in 1968. The narrow blue band at the belt rail got my attention.
I looked up the street in the Brooklyn street index.
It had to have been the Broadway El.
Makes sense. The buildings in the scenes are appropriate for ENY/Bed-Stuy-Bushwick.
Yesterday midnight was yard posting at ENY, and 8101-4 were there, but all the doors were chained up. this morning I was at 207th, and when we were bringin in our layup, I saw the diesel pulling 8105-6 toward the barn. Later we did a barn move from track 21, andwhen we were finished, we too a peak at the new cars (parked on 18 near the car desk). The end door was not chained, and we could look inside. )Platic covering everywhere. The seats were periwinkle (didn't think to look into the next car to see if they were different, but I'm beginning to think that all of these green and maroon seats in pictures of both 142's and 143's are photographic discoloration (periwinkle blue is not too far from those colors for that to happen). The interior LED signs (both on windows and AC ends) are not installed yet, but the exterior ones are (what someone reported-- that the side signss are LED, instead of LCD appears to be true. I wonder what color those will be (as I reported before, the ends are red only). Since the visibility is not as crucial as on the end, maybe these will be multicolor as well. It would be nice if it were full color (including blue) like the one hanging in front of the car desk window. (Made with rows of red, green and blue).
There were arrow shaped LED configurations on the walls pointing to the doors. (These were clear, so the color can't be determined). It looks like Some sort of panel will go over them.
It would be nice if it were full color (including blue) like the one hanging in front of the car desk window. (Made with rows of red, green and blue).
There were arrow shaped LED configurations on the walls pointing to the doors. (These were clear, so the color can't be determined). It looks like Some sort of panel will go over them.
Also saw a 142 consist pull out of storage and head up the ramp to the IRT. It included 6381. It looks like they were never in service before, (I'm not sure what number we were up to as far as the cars entering service), so I guess these will be entering service soon.
This is awesome news. If anyone finds out when they might be testing these things then I'll try to get see them and maybe get some pictures. I really can't wait to see what the R143's will be like. And what better line to put them on than the one I've been riding almost my whole life :)
Do you have any idea how or when these cars got here? I assume they will be delivered in the usual Kawasaki fashion. Half by truck, half by boat. It would make more sense however, to have them delivered the same way as the R142's from Bombardier. There are similar connections to the Canarsie line to the Linden Shops as there are to the IRT. You can bring the cars on there at the wye and bring them to ENY rather easily I figure. If they were all delivered in the Bronx they would have to make a very long trip to get to ENY.
Anyway.. just some brainstorming. Thanks for the info.
Shawn.
You bring up a good point. If the cars are coming from Yonkers into Manhattan though, the need to send the by rail might be unnessary. It's a short trip.
I don't recall if there's a connection between the Kawasaki Car Plant and Metro North Hudson Line (don't believe there is). If that were the case, sending cars down the Hudson Line, and around to Oak Point, before heading over the Hell Gate to Linden would definitely do the trick.
-Stef
Cars coming from Yonkers are sent via low-ride flat-bed truck down Broadway to 207 St shop. It's the strangest thing to be walking along B'way near VC and watch a subway car drive by on the street.
I saw 5015 (an R68A) arriving on Flatbed truck heading down Brooklyn's 3rd Avenue in 1988.
wayne
Unfortunately, subway cars do not come anywhere near meeting FRA standards and that means that they CANNOT ride the rails on a "real" railroad ... air, voltage, wheel dimensions and a raft of factors conspire to prevent that. They blow through Selkirk on their route to the south on flatcars ... them's the rules.
Did the NY&A and/or MTA have to obtain a FRA waiver in order to roll the R142's on their own wheels from NY&A Fresh Pond Yard to the Linden Shops along the Bay Ridge Line? The NY&A is under FRA regulations I'd assume as well as all of the track they use and share with the LIRR.
Shawn.
Dunno ... maybe they didn't tell anybody. :)
The FRA does not absolutely prohibit shipping R142s on their
own wheels. That is more of a policy decision of the railroad
or railroads involved in the move. The cars, which would have
no brakes, would have to be sandwiched with enough functional
freight cars to provide braking. Speed would probably have to
be limited accordingly, and there is a slightly increased chance
of problems around special work as there are a few minute
differences in the wheel profile. It was probably cheaper to
ship the cars on top of flats than to go through all of that.
IIRC when they brought SMEE's to New York on their own wheels they had a special car that enabled the brakes on the SMEE's to work, some kind of convertor. You can't take a train out of a terminal with cars with inoperative brakes, not legally any way. If you have to cut any out en route I think the max is 15% of the train.
I read a story about them once by the guy who used to be the rider for them, rode the caboose; kind of security man I guess? They had to be rear-end-only as the drawbars didn"t have near the strength of the ones on "big RR" cars, even then break-in-two's were a risk.
Somebody was once kind enough to end me a photo of R1 or one of those types...probably 10 cars, behind a NY Central Pacific steam loco.Of course with the R1-9 having automatic air brake there was no brake problem..would work off the engines train brake valve.
Doesn't that apply only to revenue service ?
R9 1802 went to Albany hitched to the rear of a caboose. Most TA cars before the R44 rode the PRR from St Louis, Berwick, or Philly.
I have no idea ... the rules have changed repeatedly over time though getting more and more restrictive. Maybe the reason for the flatbeds is simply to reduce wear and tear on the cars ... but I know for a fact that subway cars don't meet FRA regs in any way shape or form. Rolling them at all on a "railroad" is an invitation to NTSB writing you up.
After the demise of passenger rail around much of the country, a lot of railroads didn't maintain their tracks and railbeds to meet passenger rail standards anymore. Amtrak won't run cars on some major lines because they can't operate at the speed required, so it's safe to assume those lines have a little "rougher" ride then, say, the northeast corridor tracks do.
Given that, it's probably in the MTA's best interest to flat-bed the new cars into the city just to lower the wear and any possible damage that might be incurred during delivery (considering where the Kawasakis are being shipped from today, docking them in Long Beach, Calf. and running them 3,000 miles on the Union Pacific and CSX to New York would just be asking for trouble and future lawsuits if anything didn't work once the cars arrived)
Didn't know that the K's ran through here - all I've ever seen was the Bombardiers personally ... but your observations wouldn't be a surprise either. I *have* seen R4's run on the Long Island railroad, pulling the M'ers along when it snowed.
I can make this observation at least as far as subway cars on the MetroNorth sections though that would definitely preclude them from running on their own (aside from my other points) in that the third rail shoes on suway cars are upside down from the way they're rigged on the commuter lines ... on the subways, the shoes are top contact with spring pressure downward whereas on MetroNorth, the contacts are on the UNDERSIDE ... subway car third rail shoes would rip up the covers for certain on the MN trackage ...
But I offer the other argument to suggest that you probably wouldn't want to PULL them either - at least with the third rail shoes still attached ...
Never saw R-4's on the LIRR, I would have paid to see that, but I DID see, late in 1969, a set of R40M parked on the layup track at the LIRR's West Hempstead station. These were in the (ORIGINAL #'S) 4250-4260 range according to my Grey Book 4258-9 (current 4458-9), 4252-3 (current 4452-3) and 4266-7 (current 4466-7). They were NOT signed, not even "S"; all signs were set to blank white. It was just sitting there, doing nothing.
wayne
There are some shots on nycsubway.org's main pages for the R1 cars that shows those out on the LIRR somewhere though each of the shots here has subway cars in tow ... but I've heard from buddies out that way that they used to have to have subway cars come pull out some of the (A1a's was it?) out of snowbanks here and there when there was more than an inch of it on the ground. :)
I've always wandered why they were on the LIRR, outside of the fact that they were there to act as tow motors for new R-44s in testing. Heh. Ingenius on their part. Somewhere else on this site is a train of A and B Division SMEE Cars at Sunnyside Yard. I wander what that was about?
Talk about a rich history for the R-1/9. What about the R-1/9 that could be found on Staten Island, or were my eyes deceiving me? This was the time when the TA was testing clearances for the R-44.
-Stef
At least they could act as "cushions" and protect the what were the new babies to the fleet.
-Stef
Geez ... those cars would have acted like the wooden ends of an accordion ... the 44's wouldn't have made it if the R1's were unhappy. When they had working motors and compressors, those things could haul ash ...
Yeah, I guess you go with what goes ... for a while in 1971, I worked at WLIR on Fulton St in Hemphead and took the LIRR out there and back. And I remember the "A1a's" (I keep hearing M1 but the guy that usually had that run would keep the cab door open and we'd shoot the sheet since I was also working the TA at the time and he said it was an A1A so I gotta believe what he said) ... they had a nasty habit of sucking in a bit of snow underneath and it was so long, farewell, auf wiedersen, aloha ... and he told me it wasn't unusual for an R9 to come out and rescue a train if there weren't any "mighty diesels" handy. "Mighty diesels" was the taunt at the time as LIRR was trying to get the electric guys to step up to jobs "driving the mighty diesels" and the LIRR guys just chuckled over the recruiting drive.
And yes, there's shots on the main site of my sweeties cut up and carved like a dead turkey to be dragged through tunnels. Only makes sense for them to bus them out to SI to see if they could rev 'em up and take out the terminal. :)
You were told that R9's were assigned to the LIRR to rescue M-1's ?
I don't think I believe it happened. FRA, and because I was pretty observant then living on the Far Rockaway branch, plenty of MP54's still around to rescue dead M-1's.
There was a pair of R-4's that acted as buffer cars for the visiting R44 train around 1972.
Well ... it went like this ... I tended to ride the last train to Brooklyn out of Hempstead and the motorman on that train and I got to talking about R9's and A1A's and in passing, told me that he had gotten stuck in snow one morning and all they had handy to pull out his train was an R9 with a modified coupler owing to a shortage of "mighty diesels" ... in telling me about that, he said that there were a pair of them laid up at Jamaica and they'd send them out when needed. This was back in 1971.
Dunno if it was routine or if it was just because they were there at the time for another reason but he found it comical that they had to send out subway cars to "rescue" the A1A's when it snowed. To what extent this was done is something I don't know but that little conversation stuck with me because I was working R1/9's at the time and I found it quite amusing myself. Dunno if they were officially on the roster or not, but apparently there were serious problems with the motors in the LIRR cars sucking in snow at the time.
Why are the R1s referred to as R1/9s?
I was referring to the whole car series from the R-1s to the R-9s, not any car specifically. 1800 Cars (100-1802), over multiple contracts, were pretty similar in design.
-Stef
If we simple referred to the whole group in general as R1 or R9, we would get corrected, so its CYA.
Heh. And most people would be really hard pressed to tell an R1 from an R4 from an R6 from an R9 ... there ARE quite noticeable differences between them for the excessively picky. Even different railfan windows, different manufacturers, you name it ...
SMEE cars are not compatible with schedule 26 brake equipment. They would fail the brake tests that are mandatory by law. Therefore putting them on a flatcar as a load is OK as long as the flatcar has working brake equipment and height restrictions aren't violated. That is how they got those M1 scrap shells out of Sunnyside Yard a few years back. I think the reason the TA is leaning towards flatbed truck delivery is it is cheaper than rail delivery. NY Cross harbor was an expensive middleman between Naporano Iron and Metals and South Brooklyn Railway.
Thanks for that tidit ... as a kid, I was about as foaming as any railfan could get. I *still* love trains and all very dearly even to the point of having a rather extensive train layout on my desk and at home ... but working for the TA back in the early 70's kinda cured most of it, living in a railroad town and having a number of buddies who worked for Gonerail and actually getting genuine "handle time" cured me largely of the rest. When you've had your fantasy, I s'pose you don't foam as much. Heh.
I knew there were braking issues, thought of the upside down third rail shoe later and generally realize that FRA regs are nothing to trifle with. That alone would be reason for any trainmaster to say, "you ain't rolling those things on *my* tracks" ... but as a result of washing out of the railroad retirement system, I must admit that I know what constitutes a "no-no" but not always why. Thank ya! :)
Meant to add with respect to the subway system, I've forgotten more than enough to be a TSS/Motor Instructor but 30 years tends to make you forget a *lot* ... that's why I love hanging out here with folks like Big Ed, ZMan, BMTman and others who are still close enough to it all (and apparently don't have a REAL life heh) to have never forgotten the details that got drummed into my head in schoolcar and then going for my certification for diesel power even though I never went to work for a "real" railroad ... that alone (the paperwork) was enough to let me ride up front with buddies on long rides (beats all hell outta being stuck in the back with the geese) and shooting the sheet during those long boring rides between stops.
But it's amazing how much I no longer know doo-wah-diddy-doo (yo! Puffy, here's a monicker for ya) about the details anymore. Here on subtalk it's embarassing sometimes because someone else just whips it out and it becomes "instant duh! I *knew* that" for me ...
(sorry guys, I learned SMEE but I *ran* AMUE's ... MUCH more fun)
Subway Cars haven't been shipped on their own wheels since the 60s? I am aware of Bombarider's Practice of shipping down cars on flats to NYC from Plattsburgh.
-Stef
Yep ... we've spotted them up here doing the round robin from CP through Selkirk to Schenectady onto the Hudson line ... all wrapped up like gifts. Heh.
They go to 207th first by truck one at a time to be linked together.
From 207th, they can just run down CPW and the KK connection.
Technically, they don't run. They are pulled.
I know! Their practices work. The same delivery process can be said for the R-142As, with the only difference being that the IRT units are shipped to 239th St Yard rather than 207th St. As of right now, 7371-80 were placed into testing, I'd guess that 7381-90 are also here or at least in the process of being put together.
-Stef
Isaw this set heading S/B at 137 on the 1 around 430am today. It was on the center track and was running light.
From what I hear, the scratchitti is already on order.
Nice news concerning the R143. I have a question however: you did see the 8101 bunch - which were the end cars; i.e. how was it ordered:
i.e. 8101-2-3-4; 8101-2-4-3 or some other variation?
thanks in advance
wayne
R143 going to be like this 8101-8102-8104-8103/8105-8106-8108-8107.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation
Hey wait a minute! If that's the case, this is completely the opposite of the R-44/46/68 methodology of linking cars, where the "A" Unit is an even numbered car. Who the hell thinks of these things?!?
-Stef
Who the hell thinks of these things?!?
The MTA, of course :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because the R-44/46 started with even numbers. So did the R-68, but not the R-68.
Today (as opposed to before the renumbering), the R-44 starts from 5202 because they can't start with 5201 and 5200 is an R-68. R-46 starts from 5482 (the R-44 leaves off at 5479).
I understand what you're saying, but I was thinking in terms of the linking configuration. With an R-68A for instance, one can see the linked combination of 5002-5001-5003-5004. The even numbered cars are the "A" units, the odd numbered cars are the "B" units. But with the R-143, this may not be the case as the odd numbered cars such as 8101 are the designated "A" units. I ask, why break with tradition?
-Stef
Do these R143s have the same crappy third rail pick up shoe as the R110Bs?
It was some smaller piece on the end, different from the regular ones. I know I've seen it somewhere before, so it might be the same as the 110
Hmm....A longer piece of contact metal, a narrow connector piece to the truck.
Watch how long that lasts.
Why break with tradition? Why not? Does it really matter if the odd numbered R143 cars are the A or B units. I personally think it's better this way because the lead car number ends in 1, which is logical. The R44, 46, 68 and 68As should also have been configured this way (5001-2-3-4 instead of 5002-1-3-4). 1 comes before 2, not the other way around as it had been done. That's one tradition that was meant to be broken.
It doesn't really matter to me one way or another; as long as the product works, that's fine.
-Stef
i'm hoping that some who checks out this very good web site can help me. i'm an ex-new yorker and am interested in buying a subway sign -- not a little sign, but a big, heavy one -- one of the very long, green ones that identify the names of stations. woody allen had one hanging on the wall over his bed in the movie manhattan murder mystery (it was the canal street station sign, and it had the name of the station in both english and chinese -- fabulous). the city doesn't sell them, of course, but perhaps a private collector does? or a subway enthusiast? all suggestions/help welcome. thanks in advance.
I take it that you don't live in New York anymore since you say that you're an ex-New Yorker. There is a store on the corner of Houston and Bowery in Manhattan that has signs like the one you describe. They didn't have CANAL STREET but they did have CHAMBERS - WTC in the big size as well as some smaller station signs. They wanted $200 for the large ones and $100 for the small ones. There is also a guy on ebay that sells the small signs. Just do a search on ebay for "subway sign" his ebay nicname is sign_man_nyc. I have personally purchased a dozen different one from him so I can vouch for him as being reliable.
Good Luck,
Marc
thanks, motorman. anyone know the name of the store he's talking about?
I vouch from experience of having been there.
The store lacks a readable name.. it's best described
as a half-dome tent fenced in... across the street
from houston (?) billiards.... cant miss it...
storefront looks like a yard sale...
signs are visible from sidewalk.. with more
inside the tent... friendly attendant, too.
3 or 4 blocks EAST of the 6 train at BLEECKER.
Yes, I agree. It's very hard to miss. I also get the impression that the $200/$100 price is open to discussion. Going there with cash in hand, I think you could make a deal with them.
Marc
Please see this link from Bustalk. You could post there also and the Handles could be use on Broth Bustalk and Subtalk.
Read This.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=31008
Copy that URL Above by High lighting it Right Click and click "Copy" then put in the Web Adress in the place where you type down the Web URL. The way you put it in is by Holding "Shift" and "Insert" at the same time.
It's still the same OLD me!! Just change my Handle.
Alright. Time to settle the score with all you 'hippo haters' and those who love the redbirds.
60' cars versus 75' cars
For some reason, some people seem to be mystified with the ancient subway cars in NYC. "Slow hippos" seems to be a prevalent phrase on this site. Well, I hate to burst your bubbles, but:
1. The excuse: R-68's suck is not valid. Sorry.
2. an 8 car 75' train can carry more people than can a 10 car 60' train. They also have less parts to maintain. Both these facts can be determined with simple logic.
3. Forget railfan windows. They're not that important.
4. Asthetics are not a major factor when the TA orders cars. I'm sorry to inform you this.
5. For all of you obsessed with the speed of the R-40's: They aren't that much faster than the R-68's. Get over it. The fastest cars in the system should be the R-44's. They hit 80mph in testing. Seems faster than any R-40s to me.
6. Durability is the key in the NYCTA. R-68's are the best in that catagory.
7. The R-32's were indeed the best built cars (their long service will attest to that), but they are not the best running cars right now. That honor goes to the R-68s, which are running with 'crazy' high MDBF's. The R-32's may be the best all-time (my opinion), but right now they are second.
Old vs. New
Why does everyone here seem to think that the redbirds are still a very good peice of equipment. I know that some of you are going to be hurting, but:
1. Rust is not a desirable quality in a car.
2. Loud squealing is not a desirable quality in a car.
3. Cars like the redbirds eventually become expensive to maintain. At some point you will have to replace them. At an even earlier time, it becomes more cost efficient to buy new cars instead of continuing to maintain the old ones.
4. New cars bring new technologies. One such technology is AC traction motors. AC motors are supposed to be better. The whole "SMEE is tried and true" thread is stupid. Like Pork said, Advancement is an important part of our society. Would it have been a good idea to keep propellor planes instead of using jet planes because propellor planes are 'tried and true', or because they stand up a little better while flying through hurricanes. No, everyone here appreciates the advance into the jet age. Similarly, y'all need to realize that the R-142's are a great step forward in the otherwise backwards NYCTA.
5. Railfan windows are not a good enough reason to keep the rustbirds around.
6. R-142's suck is not a valid reason.
7. Generally, you retire cars before they break down permanently. Especially since that could hold up rush hour traffic.
That's all i've got to say 'bout this. Once again, new cars suck isn't a valid excuse.
""2. an 8 car 75' train can carry more people than can a 10 car 60' train. They also have less parts to maintain. Both these facts can be determined with simple logic. ""
How can that be - all that space wasted with both quarter and full-width cabs ? They also have lousy ingress/egress with 20 door reduction and have proven their inferioraity on the Queens Blvd IND, which is why R32's stayed on the E when the R46's were sent off to Hornell.
""The fastest cars in the system should be the R-44's. They hit 80mph in testing. Seems faster than any R-40s to me. ""
They hit 83 MPH in testing on the lIRR and also burned out their traction motors. That was before voltage was stepped up from 650 to 750.
How can that be - all that space wasted with both quarter and full-width cabs ? They also have lousy ingress/egress with 20 door reduction and have proven their inferioraity on the Queens Blvd IND, which is why R32's stayed on the E when the R46's were sent off to Hornell.
He never mentioned access/egress. That is a disadvantage. Cabs are not a feature of 75 foot cars specifically. It just so happens to be that way. And in the case of the R-44 and R-46, there isn't a cab in every car.
They hit 83 MPH in testing on the lIRR and also burned out their traction motors. That was before voltage was stepped up from 650 to 750.
They burned out their motors at 83 MPH. The R-40s would have burned out their motors much earlier.
Actually, the R-44's hit 88 mph, and 77 mph with half their traction motors disabled. According to others posting on this site, the problem at that speed was "bird-caging" of the windings. It appears that with a little work, the R44 and R46 cars could indeed provide 80-90 mph service on an appropriate track. They were intended for 70-75 mph service on the Second Av subway.
Speed isn't an issue with these 2 75' cars. Only the R68's have this annoying sluggishness, which has tainted the reputation of all 75' cars in the fleet.
Agreed
""2. an 8 car 75' train can carry more people than can a 10 car 60' train. They also have less parts to maintain. Both these facts can be determined with simple logic. ""
How can that be - all that space wasted with both quarter and full-width cabs ? They also have lousy ingress/egress with 20% door reduction and have proven their inferioraity on the Queens Blvd IND, which is why R32's stayed on the E when the R46's were sent off to Hornell.
""The fastest cars in the system should be the R-44's. They hit 80mph in testing. Seems faster than any R-40s to me. ""
They hit 83 MPH in testing on the lIRR and also burned out their traction motors. That was before voltage was stepped up from 650 to 750.
>>How can that be - all that space wasted with both quarter and full-width cabs ? They also have lousy ingress/egress with 20% door reduction and have proven their inferioraity on the Queens Blvd IND, which is why R32's stayed on the E when the R46's were sent off to Hornell.<<
Well, at least on the R-44/46's. With less gaps (between cars) that makes more standing room.
>>They hit 83 MPH in testing on the lIRR and also burned out their traction motors. That was before voltage was stepped up from 650 to 750.<<
Ok. If we want to start acting like this then here's another fact: With regulated speed control mode, R-44/46 units were able to reach 65mph in passenger service. This was discontinued because of a collision at Fifth av. and 53rd. st. It was determined that the signal system was not able to provide protection at speeds in excess of 50mph.
So there you have it. R-44/46's were the fastest cars in revenue service. BOOOOOOOOYAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
I can attest to the higher speeds in regulated mode. When we trained on the R44 when new we flipped into regulated mode and that train moved out fast and continued to move fast but we couldn't let it get to anything past normal, 45-50 or so. The regulated mode was later blocked out completely. I didn't like running in regulated [on the R46 it was bulletined to do so] but they did run better.
The R44 was a lemon when new; it took many modifications before they became a decent car; R142 seems about the same. After all the trials before production you'd think they'd have the bugs out.
>>The R44 was a lemon when new; it took many modifications before they became a decent car; R142 seems about the same. After all the trials before production you'd think they'd have the bugs out.<<
The R-142's are hardly lemons. They have new technology that the TA is not familiar with, but they don't quite qualify as 'lemons', unilke the New R-44's.
The jury's still out on the R-142s -- they probably won't be lemons, but the longer it takes for all of them to get into service and the closer to this year's mayoral and next year's gubenatorial elections it gets, the more likely the small problems are to becomming a campaign issue to bash the MTA.
If that happens, the tabloids and the TV stations will follow the politicians' leads and dub them lemons, even if the bugs are all worked out by the end of the year, since bashing the MTA is good for both circulation and ratings.
Yeah. It's sad that politicians can just say a good car is a lemon because of a few bugs at the beginning of it's life. But, I think that the TA will work out the kinks soon. Hopefully before or during mid-August.
For the sake of the taxpayers, passengers, crew persons, and managers I hope your positive attitude is right. I won't disagree; just seems like every time they try to reinvent the wheel it's a fiasco.
I can't argue on the MBDF numbers, though last year Train Dude said the No. 2 shop behind his Concourse facility was Corona, with their brand-spanking-old R-33/36WFs, so there's probably also something to be said about keeping the same cars in one location for year after year after year.
As for the 75-footers, while an eight-car train of them may have a slightly larger capacity than a 10-car train of 60-footers, it's been pointed out many times on the board that their load/unload factor is slower, because a 10-car R-32/38/40/42 train has 40 doors per side, while an eight car R-44/46/68 has only 32 doors, a 20 percent reduction. That means more dwell time in stations to let people on and off, which can be a real time factor on the most sardine-like (cough, cough, Queens Blvd.) lines.
The other problem, which won't show up for another 10- to 15-years, is versatility -- the 60 footers can be moved to any line on the system, and older, less reliable 60-footers can be shunted off to the less used Eastern Division lines, which may not be fair to those riders, but it's what the TA/MTA has been doing for the past 35 years.
When the R-44/46s and later the R-68s begin to show their age, they're staying on the IND and BMT Southern Division no matter what. The MTA can shift some over to the G or the C, which probably are the least-used of those lines, but there are just too many 75-footers to either hide them from the other lines or limit them to rush hour-only service.
>>I can't argue on the MBDF numbers, though last year Train Dude said the No. 2 shop behind his Concourse facility was Corona, with their brand-spanking-old R-33/36WFs, so there's probably also something to be said about keeping the same cars in one location for year after year after year.<<
Granted, those cars are indeed some of the best. But, it's the 7. That line can still manage to be the best in NYC with redbirds. The cars have been in Corona 3 times my present lifespan.
>>As for the 75-footers, while an eight-car train of them may have a slightly larger capacity than a 10-car train of 60-footers, it's been pointed out many times on the board that their load/unload factor is slower, because a 10-car R-32/38/40/42 train has 40 doors per side, while an eight car R-44/46/68 has only 32 doors, a 20 percent reduction. That means more dwell time in stations to let people on and off, which can be a real time factor on the most sardine-like (cough, cough, Queens Blvd.) lines.<<
How much dwell time did it really create? C'mon, let's be realistic. At the most it's 10 seconds. This might add up, but if there is less room, that's going to cause more dwell time too, as more people force their way onto a jammed train.
>>The other problem, which won't show up for another 10- to 15-years, is versatility -- the 60 footers can be moved to any line on the system, and older, less reliable 60-footers can be shunted off to the less used Eastern Division lines, which may not be fair to those riders, but it's what the TA/MTA has been doing for the past 35 years.<<
This is exactly what the TA did in the A division, right? The redbirds are on the less used locals. Oops, that's not right. And what about those R-38's on the A, the R-40's on the Q and the R-32's, none of which are on the BMT east (Although R-32's are special). As long as they were built fractionally better than the R-38/40/40M/42, then the 75' cars will stay on the main lines.
>>When the R-44/46s and later the R-68s begin to show their age, they're staying on the IND and BMT Southern Division no matter what. The MTA can shift some over to the G or the C, which probably are the least-used of those lines, but there are just too many 75-footers to either hide them from the other lines or limit them to rush hour-only service.<<
The G line has R-46's right now, and will have R-68's soon. The C once had R-46's. But, it doesn't matter. The 75' cars can stay put as long as they remain in fairly good shape.
Right now, there are too many aging 60-footers to stick them all on the Eastern Division or save them all for rush hours, just as they will be too many 75-footers to hide starting about the middle of the next decade. But you'll notice that given the choice, the MTA sticks the older cars on the part-time lines if at all possible.
There is no doubt about it -- the 75-footers will stay on the IND and BMT Southern Division lines until they go to the scrapper, which as I said in another thread, makes the case for replacing them in the future with 150-foot three section articulated units. A four-unit train would be 600-feet long and could go anywhere in the system (though obviously ont he Eastern Division they would have to be 450-feet in length), and would have four more doors per train than the current 75-footers do.
As for the dwell time, 20 percent fewer doors during rush hour is A LOT, which is why given the choice, the 40-door R-32s are on the E, which is slightly more crowded than the F, which has the 32-door R-46s.
As the 142s arrive, the MTA will be able to restrict its remaining Redbirds more and more to part time service on whatever line it choses. That makes them more flexible in their dying days than the R-44/46/68s will be when their time comes.
>>Right now, there are too many aging 60-footers to stick them all on the Eastern Division or save them all for rush hours, just as they will be too many 75-footers to hide starting about the middle of the next decade. But you'll notice that given the choice, the MTA sticks the older cars on the part-time lines if at all possible.<<
Who says that all aging 60' cars need to be on the east? The R-40/M is about the only one (And maybe the R-38). The first post in this thread highlights that: "If you retire a car soon enough, there's no need to run them on so called 'low-priority' lines. Further, you forget that the R-143 is about to send something like 200 cars back to the IND/BMT so.
>>There is no doubt about it -- the 75-footers will stay on the IND and BMT Southern Division lines until they go to the scrapper, which as I said in another thread, makes the case for replacing them in the future with 150-foot three section articulated units. A four-unit train would be 600-feet long and could go anywhere in the system (though obviously ont he Eastern Division they would have to be 450-feet in length), and would have four more doors per train than the current 75-footers do.<<
Once again, you should use 67' cars. Someone brought up a point about conductors cabs, but you really don't need worry about that problem. As it is an 8 car train should have it's conductor between cars 4 and 5, but M trains have them between 5 and 6.
>>As for the dwell time, 20 percent fewer doors during rush hour is A LOT, which is why given the choice, the 40-door R-32s are on the E, which is slightly more crowded than the F, which has the 32-door R-46s.<<
How'd you figure that the E was more corwded than the F? Maybe because the F has 4 minute headways, and the E has 5. Also, you forget that R-46's also run on the E, at the height of the rush too. The F is a longer line than the E, and it carries more passengers in BOTH directions, unlike the E.
>>As the 142s arrive, the MTA will be able to restrict its remaining Redbirds more and more to part time service on whatever line it choses. That makes them more flexible in their dying days than the R-44/46/68s will be when their time comes.<<
If the TA purchases cars soon enough when the R-44's start to faulter, then they won't even need this whole part-time theory of yours. Look at it this way: I have a CD player and an MD player (this is an analogy). The MD needs more power than the CD. Both have meters showing remaining battery power. The MD's batteries start getting low. Instead of switching batteries, I just get NEW batteries for the MD. Then, the second my old batteries go out, I put in new ones. INSTANT REPLACEMENT. When a car gets old, it still runs fairly well. But if they turn into R-16's, then don't move them to the East, get rid of them.
">How'd you figure that the E was more corwded than the F? Maybe because the F has 4 minute headways, and the E has 5. Also, you forget that R-46's also run on the E, at the height of the rush too. The F is a longer line than the E, and it carries more passengers in BOTH directions, unlike the E. "
The ratio is 18 F:12 E per hour.
The fact is the R32 is on one of them (aren't enough in Queens to do the F instead) and not on the R anymore becuase they noticed during the R46 GOH that the E was making better time with R32's.
I would send enough R32's to Queens cover the F in addition anyway.
Lately there have been a lot fo R46s on the E, and a lot of R32s on the R.
:-) Andrew
Do R32s run on the R weekends? I hope so, since the R is running through 63rd this weekend and I'm hoping for a railfan window -- but the last weekend the R ran through 63rd (a few months ago), I waited a half hour or more and nothing of interest showed up.
"How much dwell time did it really create? C'mon, let's be realistic. At the most it's 10 seconds. This might add up, but if there is
less room, that's going to cause more dwell time too, as more people force their way onto a jammed train."
Average dwell time in the subways was 20 seconds in the 1980's. Local train speeds averaged 18.5 mph (including time stopped in stations), 28 mph for express trains (incl. stopped time). Source NYC Transit response to my query during the design of the "Ride and Seek" game.
The other problem, which won't show up for another 10- to 15-years, is versatility -- the 60 footers can be moved to any line on the system, and older, less reliable 60-footers can be shunted off to the less used Eastern Division lines, which may not be fair to those riders, but it's what the TA/MTA has been doing for the past 35 years.
Hmmm. It seems to be a common belief that the R44s will go before the R32s, or at least not much after. They could be hidden on the (C) and (G) lines until they die.
With the R46, there are a lot of them. If the R44 is still hooging up the (C) and (G) , then I guess it's the (N)(R) and maybe the (V) and perhaps the (B).
:-) Andrew
"R-44 is still hogging up the C and G." R-46 run on the G not R-44
I know that. And the (C) is running R32s and R38s. I'm talking hypothetically in a future where the ailing R44s have been sent to the (C) and (G), and they haven't been retired yet. Now the R46s are starting to become unreliable. Where do we put them since the (C) and (G) have the R44s. Then it's time to think about the (N)(R)(B)(V), or whatever we might deem a low-priority line.
I sort of think the R44s will be retired by then anyway, but who knows.
:-) Andrew
true true. but most likely, they will stay put because it would create a shorage of cars for the A line unless there is another order of new cars coming in besides the R-143. any how, the R-44's aren't at the end of their lives yet, wait another decade before they retire them .
The R46 has at least 20 years left, so trying to determine where they will end their lives today is silly. If we did the same thing in 1981, we'd probably pick the QB, CC and AA....LOL
Things have changed over the past 35 years. Deferred maintenance in the 60's and 70's led to a rapid decrease in reliabilty the older a subway car got. Therefore, the older R7/R9 cars which were sent to the eastern division in the late 60's probably had unacceptable performance for higher profile IND/BMT lines. Today's SMS will eliminate most of this decline of mechanical performance to the point where all the 75'cars (except the troublesome R44) can remain reasonably reliable enough to remain where they are today until their retirement.
Didn't someone say elsewhere in this thread that the 2nd most reliable car type is the 37 yo Flushing R36's? If SMS didn't exist, logic would dictate the high capacity Flushing line would be equipped with the newest R62 cars.
I don't doubt that so long as the bean counters don't forget past history and try to get away with deferred maintenance again, the current cars will last longer than the ones that had to survive the late 60s through early 80s. But eventually little things do go wrong -- the AC units on the Flushing line seem to come in for frequent criticism -- and there will be people in the future on certain lines wondering why this line gets the newer cars while their line is stuck with these old 75-foot cars.
The latter may not have any foundation in fact -- the R-46s may be running just as or almost as well as the R-160s, R-175s or whatever in the year 2018 except for a little weaker air conditioning -- but people vote and the politicians will listen to their complaints and pass them on to the MTA brass, even if there's nothing they can do about it because the normal shunt-them-off-to-the-Eastern Division option isn't available.
Enough! I've tolerated this "Eastern division is where crap goes" long enough! Anybody aside from me notice that the R-143's are going on the Eastern division, while some R-40/M/42's will be going back to those other lines?
I take it some of you really don'tlike the rebuilt R-42's..
Hardly! Those are my favorite of the R-40S/40M/42 cars. My point was that everyone here says that BMT east always gets the bottom of the barrel, and that's not true. R-16's were on the BMT east when they were new too, so were Some R-27/30's. The R-143's will do that too. The TA doesn't always ship it's worst cars to BMT east/
not true. The 27/30s didnt see Eastern Division service untill the late 60s after CHRYSTIE ST opened,and as far as these lines getting the bottom of the barrel cars for years,thats true!!!! I,for one, am truully thrilled to see new cars finally go over there.
>>The 27/30s didnt see Eastern Division service untill the late 60s after CHRYSTIE ST opened,<<
Oops. I knew that too! Stupid J Trainloco
I'm not thrilled to see new cars over there. That place gets less 'burn' (ridership) than the G train (not really, but you get the idea).
R27/30's were not bottom of the barrel in 1968. They went there so the R16's with their crappy door motors could stay underground and not go thru that silly Canarsie/Jamaica line fleet swap with every snow forecast.
True, but the eastern division got the elderly R7/R9 cars in 1968 when the R40's were put into service on the E and F lines. Besides a few R42's, the eastern division didn't get any really new cars from 1955 to the present.
Funny thing about the R-7/9s. When they started migrating over to the Eastern Division, I looked at them as new cars. It probably had a lot to do with my dislike (at the time) for the BMT standards. I was not sorry to see them go. For the record, it was on January 5, 1969 that I saw a train of R-7/9s on the Canarsie for the first time. My eyes lit up like a Christmas tree.
You must have put your finger on the "Changeover switch" on the panel. Nyuk nyuk nyuk ...
Why, soitanly. Woo-woo-woo-woo!!!
Actually, I saw that train at 6th Ave. or Union Square, and it was bound for 8th Ave. We were Brooklyn-bound on a train of - what else? - BMT standards. I don't remember the exact date of my first R-7/9 ride on the Canarsie, but I was ecstatic to say the least when it did happen. It was the equivalent of getting a prewar A or D train with no headlights (rode on one of the latter along CPW once - keewwwl!!).
I wonder if some of the guys picked up some of my own bad habits ... I'd often DOUSE the headlights just for the fun of it. The car shop usually did replace the bulbs but some of us would just turn 'em off. Then again, some cars did have dead bulbs but you only saw those rush hours usually ... the windshields on them were usually so crusty, you could see better with them turned off ... and don't have a cow, man.
The only time I would see the lights get turned off would be on an R-7/9 train on the Canarsie as it left 6th Ave. for 8th Ave. Those prewar A and D trains I was lucky enough to ride were R-1s or R-4s which never had headlights installed.
Heh. Sometimes we turned them off for sheets and giggles. After all, back in 1971, so many cars were bad-order, the RCI's wouldn't question it. They'd lean in the windows and remind us to write it up when we "got home" ... heh. Back in the early 70's, if we weren't whining up a storm, the RCI's were just as happy to NOT have to break out the ball pein hammer ... we used to refer to them as "squirrels looking for a nut to hammer on" which is why I got a personal guffaw out of (was it ZMan? I'm DETERMINED to get this quote right some day - "a squirrel looking for his biweekly nut) it ...
But yeah, I made it a point for rigging for silent running - you could see the signals and rails better with the lights out on the IND given the patina on the windows ... turning on the headlights down below would only obscure your view ...
Did any of the oldtimers come down with hot boxes? Those dry friction journals were a big maintenance item.
Yes they did get hotboxes. Showed for what they were by the smoke rising, if it smelled like feathers burning [raunchy] you knew it was a hotbox and not something electrical. In a service like transit it shouldn't have happened but did, luckily it wasn't common.(Considering how many cars were on the road at rush hour)
BTW roller journals can run hot, that's why they have detectors on the big roads...and you can't see them until it's too late. On friction journals it was plainly visible, and smelly.
Towards the end of the R1-9 on the Concourse I droppd out of a trip on the CC at Bedford park. Smoke from the first car. Took it to the yard and parked the train. Would you believe by the time I parked the train there was a second hotbox...following car, same axle (first I think) on the same side. Unreal coincidence.
Heh. Yeah ... it happened every so often. You'd think someone on one of the cars was operating an illegal barbecue ... and it almost smelled sorta like those horse chestnut carts on a streetcorner if they were using old tires to keep the nuts roasted.
I've had a few that had to be taken out of service or at least allowed to sit and "set a while" until they cooled down enough to move.
I love them!
This is only happening because the R143 is equipped with CBTC, and the L is the line being used to test the system. If not for this, the new cars definatley go elsewhere, probably to the A or E.
With regard to #5 in "60' cars versus 75' cars" --
It's true that the R-44s hit 83 MPH in testing on the LIRR. Both the R-44 and R-46 fleets were designed for 70+ MPH speeds. However, during these fleets' General Overhaul (GOH) in the late 1980s/early 1990s, the cars were re-geared for a maximum speed in the neighborhood of 55 MPH, which is what the rest of the fleet was capable of at the time. Subsequently, full field shunting capability was removed from these cars (along with the rest of the fleet), reducing their top speed even further (as well as increasing the amount of time it takes to reach top speed).
As to what is the fastest car class in the fleet...when all is said and done, there probably isn't one. Nominally, under the same conditions, each car class is capable of reaching the same top speed.
David
There you go. Thanks David. Now, try to convince the 'hippo' crowd of what you just said.
Btw: What is field shunting capability?
Jeff H tried to explain how it works in a technical manner, but I didn't get it.
Nevertheless, it lowers resistance in the motor or something and allows it to spin faster.
With field shunting in place, the motor's balancing speed is increased, permitting higher speeds. Without the final step, the balancing speed is reduced. The express/local switch on older R units accomplished the same thing. The final field shunt step was enabled in the express mode and disabled in the local mode. Essentially, all trains operate today in the local mode. Now that I think about it, local trains of the R-1/9s on the IND remained under power all the way between stops while expresses did a lot of coasting. At least those AA trains we took in May of 1967 stayed under power between 59th and 72nd Streets, singing out at E above middle C.
Well I guess I learned something new today. I won't argue about it but the only thing I knew that EXP/LCL switch to do was reroute electricity to one bulb or another. 5 bulbs inthe circuit...2 marker lamps, 2 bulbs for route sign, one for express or local. The end destination signs were lit by battery.
To my knowledge the reason the locals remained in power was for making more stops. I never thought that the EXP light allowed a field shunt to increase speed. You could be right but they never taught us that.
Yeah, you did it about the same time I did ... what they were most interested in teaching us in school car besides signals, "don't touch THIS" and so on was how to get the train to an RCI when it laid down somewhere or went BIE spontaneously for no good reason. :)
But I *do* remember mention being made of the EXP/LCL switch being set primarily to maintain your schedule. But they glossed over WHY you had to look at the switch for that before leaving the terminal. It was MIGHTY important on the R1/9'ers because you couldn't coast properly in the LCL position ... you had to be in EXP. I always made sure mine was in that position even if I was running local. Heh.
Oddly enough, the very first D train of R-32s I ever saw pulled into 34th St. with the "Local" sign lit. It was on a Saturday in December of 1967, either the 9th or the 16th. Of course, D trains made all local stops in Brooklyn on weekends and were still running local along 6th Ave. except during rush hours. I didn't stay on that particular train for the CPW dash. It would have been interesting to see how it would have performed on that stretch. Some time later, I did see a D train of R-32s zip effortlessly past 81st St. They didn't howl or thunder past; it was more like a Silver Streak.
I pretty much agree with your post. The only gripe I have with the 75' cars is that they should have made them with 5 doors per side. There's plenty of room for it.
However, from the R143 and on, the TA should only order 60' cars, so that they can run on any B divison line. It was mentioned here before that the only reason the TA bought 75' cars was because the Federal gov't "bullied" them into buying them. It was the only way the gov't would give them the money to buy new cars.
>>The only gripe I have with the 75' cars is that they should have made them with 5 doors per side. There's plenty of room for it.<<
Yeah, but then there'd be less seats.
>>However, from the R143 and on, the TA should only order 60' cars, so that they can run on any B divison line. It was mentioned here before that the only reason the TA bought 75' cars was because the Federal gov't "bullied" them into buying them. It was the only way the gov't would give them the money to buy new cars.<<
As stated before, 75' cars mean less maintenence. Or how about a 67' car like the standard? Build them with BMT std. Dimensions so that they can run on the BMT east. Seriously, after R-160, they should buy another 75' car.
If they bought 67-foot cars, there would be the issues concerning stopping and C/R position. The R110B cars that run on the C line have to stop at the 10 sign, even though it's a 6-car train. This is so the conductor is right opposite the "R110" C/R board in each station. IIRC, the C/R rides in the 6th car on northbound trips, and in the 3rd car on southbound trips.
>>The only gripe I have with the 75' cars is that they should have made them with 5 doors per side. There's
plenty of room for it.<<
""Yeah, but then there'd be less seats.""
If they were so interested in seats, they should hav gotton R143's with R16 seating arrangement. 67' foot cars don't easily allow for 480' long trains. They would always have to couple a 3 car set to a 4 car set to make 7 car trains, but 3 3's for 9 car trains.
Cure the disease, not the bandage.
The eastern portion of the BMT has turns that will not accept the 75ft cars. The section of the Jamaica El from Cypress Hills to Eastern Pkwy is so old my arthritis feels good! In common good sense it should be replaced and rerouted along Jamaica Ave. This would allow service to continue until the final cutover. The same technology as being used for the Airtrain would speed construction and make for a quiter FASTER ride. this would also allow a three rack line from Marcy Ave to 121st St. I'd suggest an express stop at Cypress Hill if a three track rerout were to be build and extended to 121st ST.
That 'esse" turn on the "L" line should be straightened out as well!
Do these things and there will be no 60ft,67ft or 75ft b.s.
avid
That is a good point.
SEPTA is planning to rebuild the Market-Frankford Line by replacing the side-mounted steel bents with a single T-bar style steel bent (like AirTrain, or resembling the supports that hold the J subway as it leaves 121 St and heads toward the Archer Av tunnel).
MTA could, in theory do that to existing elevated lines. This would replace a steel pillar on either side of a street with a single piller on the median. There are some advantages to that.
Those single bar T-bents also happen to be holding up The Market-Frankford El on the opposite end, so in other words, they're tearing down the Market el and replacing it with the "Frankford" el.
Yes, that's right. While they're doing that, they're also going to be making those stations ADA-accessible (not the ones underground except 30th St). In my opinion, not providing full ADA access to stations near the University area (Drexel, U.Penn) is not good. I understand it's expensive, and this is subject to budget availability, as well as competition with other projects...
"The section of the Jamaica El from Cypress Hills to Eastern Pkwy is so old my arthritis feels good! In common good sense it should be replaced and rerouted along Jamaica Ave. "
Dream on. It will never happen. Too low a ridership to justify the expenditure, and the NIMBY's along Jamaica Ave in Brooklyn will start up. One of the reverse curves at Marcy is a problem, and the Myrtle Avenue turnout may be also too.
Since there are photos of an R-46 on the Myrtle el north of Broadway, they can make the curve...but apparently, they can't make it safely two at a time, which would cause even more delays than the lack of a flying junction there does already.
UMTA did in fact ORDER the LIRR to get the M-1's with carpeting in non-bathroom/non-smoking/odd cars so as to attract people out of their cars to "living room comfort".
Your points are well taken. I'm not familiar enough with the R68s, though, to tell what railfan complaints with them are valid or not.
One thing I think folks need to understand about the "Redbirds." They came out of the era when Reginald Welch was head of the TA's car design. He was an extremely conservative man. He prayed at the temples of standardization and durability. He said that subway cars are "an unesthetic people-carrying box." He resisted PCC technology or new technology or even inside frame trucks as too flimsy for NYC use.
Ironically, the TA (I don't know if this was him personally) also resisted stainless steel. So the "durable" Redbirds rust and the R32s will possibly have the longest in-service run of any TA equuipment in history.
It's fine to enjoy the Redbirds, to like the Redbirds, to miss the Redbirds. But I don't think they represent any kind of design zenith.
"Ironically, the TA (I don't know if this was him personally) also resisted stainless steel. So the "durable" Redbirds rust and the R32s will possibly have the longest in-service run of any TA equipment in history. "
I suppose if the R36 order went to Budd, they would be on the Flushing line until 2014, and the R142 order would not have to be as large. The R10 lasted 44 years. The Redbirds and R32 have a ways to go.
Actually the design now called Redbird was better for the IRT than the BMT/IND. The smaller size made the same basic body design more structurally sound.
The R-26/28s are going to end up lasting just one year less than the R-10s, and the last of the R-33/36s will probably stay in backup/rush hour service long enough to hit the 40 year mark. The R-29s, alas, may end up like Jack Benny -- stuck at 39 years old forever.
...and the R-32's will be here long enough to celebrate the TA's 200th anniversary....
Railfan windows into the 22nd Century. Nice thought...
I can imagine 140 year old railroad equipment in full rush hour force when NYC population will be 20 million, what will the people think of the ridgies (R-32)? The greatest contribution to mankind from the last century. Yep 100 years from now you'll see R-32s melting down the tracks, when the rest of the system is Mag-Lev or even teleportation LOL, anyways, what are the thoughts of subtalkers on Mag-Lev??
Maglev is great, it's going to revolutionize transit and it's not going to happen for minimum fifty years, and then only to new or smaller systems. NYCTA will be rail forever and ever, amen.
Dan
The R-10s as a fleet lasted almost 41 years, to be exact. They entered revenue service on the A in November of 1948 and the last revenue run was in September of 1989, IIRC.
R68's are not that much slower than the rest of the NYCT fleet, but they are still pathetically slow. They reach a whopping speed of 35 on the 4th ave line, but when compared with things like the Broad Steet Subway or PATCO in Philadelphia, this half of their permitted 70mph. By railroad standards, NYC subways rarely exceed "Medium speed". What kind of rapid transit is that?
It's called Leisurely Transit.:-(
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
And don't forget to stop by the infamous TUBE BAR right outside the Journal Square station for a dollar cup of Bud. Ask to see Bill Loney or Stu Pitt.
If they havent torn it down yet, view the old Journal Square trolley station structure, complete with tracks and wire troughs.
I was in NYC from yesterday until today. I came up with a group but after going to the Hayden Planetarium (again), I separated from them. After deciding to walk thru the park instead of taking the M79, I eventually got to 77th Street. I heard you don't have to wait more than 10 minutes for the R142A and sure enough, 10 minutes after paying my fare, the R142A comes in. It was led by 7231. This was the same set I saw testing in December.
Several comments:
The LED on the front is no better than a roll sign. All it is until the train gets near is some big red spot. They could have at least made it do green for the 4, 5. and 6.
That thing looks like it could be a operating room in a hospital White walls, grey seats, bright lights. All it is missing is an operating table!
Very quiet. Doesn't sound like a NYC subway train at all.
The announcements and strip maps were in operation and were working. Since this was a Pelham express, it didn't illuminate the local stops in the Bronx. The announcements are very sterile, especially the "Stand clear of the closing doors please." When we got to 125th Street, it had to repeat the "transfer to" announcement for the 4/5, Metro-North, and M60 (surprise!!!) which is annoying. They should rerecord them with only a single voice.
Who decided to put the doors closing light where no one can see it? Why isn't is ON the door frame, not IN it?
From the railfan window or the lack thereof, all I could see of the console were some green lights. One was steady, the other was flashing the whole time. Anyone know why?
The automated announcements sure shorten dwell time. We caught up to the redbird in front of us by 110th Street.
No artwork on the interior of the car.
At 125th, I exited and took photos of the R142A as it left and the 5 leaving on the other side. Then, from downstairs, I hear a monotonus "STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS" and run downstairs, only to see 7246 closing up and leaving. Get a picture as he leaves. R62A 1745 arrives and I took it to 96th. T/O was very understandable. Even said "We are being delayed by customers holding the doors in the front part of the train" but by the time he said that, we were rolling.
Today, I missed another R142A at 77th Street. The next train was R62A 1746 but the "railfan window" was covered up. After that was WF R36 9518. High AC which was a good thing for no other train I rode today had it (other than the Acela). The lights flickered between 59th and 51st. Then, before Grand Central, we had red over red at home signal X270. The T/O opened the cab and I asked nicely "Why are we stopped?" He asked if I saw the red signal and I said yes. He then asked what does it mean and I replied "stop and stay." He then responded "That's why." VERY HELPFUL!
Went to the transit museum shop. After that, took WF R36 9407 from Grand Central to Times Square. No AC on that train. Two of the train's cars were part of the subway series consist.
Then, upstairs to the 7th Avenue IRT where R62A 2354 came in. I got on this car since I was only going to 34th Street and didn't want to walk all the way up. At 34th, cars 9100 and 9101 did not have depot markings. They were on the 2 heading towards the Bronx.
For my Acela Express and NYC bus trips, read my other posts.
Oren:
Good report, except the Red Board should have been pretty obvious. The T/O was toying with your head there.
The R-142s were designed by a committee and they show it. Too many compromises!
The bright interiors were inspired by the 01800-series Red Line cars here in Boston. It makes for a much better ride.
I find the AAS on the 142s way too busy for my liking, and I disdain the mixed male-female voice loop. Should be one or the other, not both.
The front window situation is becoming a political football. Trouble with a full-width cab is you can't have the interior lights shining in directly. There's no easy answer.
All in all, from a personal perspective I find the 142/142As very functional and slightly annoying. At the risk of sounding parochial, I like the 01800s better because they're not "in your face" so much.
Whatever my and our opinions are won't matter though, they're coming by the legion and will be around for a long, long time. I figure I'll probably be in my 80s by the time they go away!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The #7 line definately has the WORST A/C.
"LED is no better than a roll sign. all it is until the train gets near is a big red dot. they could have made it do green for the 4,5,6." roll signs aren't brite and you can't tell it apart from anything until the train gets near either with all those bright florescent lights in the tunnel. they couldn't make it do green because it wasn't incorparated in the feature. it was too expensive.
"Looks like it could be an operating room in a hospital..........grey seats" the interior is white for the aid of vision for the passengers and police for safety. the seats aren't grey, they are lavender. girly but fresh.
"Who decided to put the doors closing light where no one can see it?" this feature was intended for the deaf who can't hear jack. and since they can't hear but can see, they will notice anything flashing in front of them.
those green lights that were flashing in the cab were for speaker system and opening and closing doors and for other functions the ones that weren't flashing are the ones being in use.
it was too expensive.
It was not too expensive. Bipolar LEDs don't cost very much more, and the equipment to switch colors one can make himself from stuff one finds in his basement. It can certainly be done with all the advanced computer equipment in there. They already have bipolar LEDs for the interior displays, which are larger and occur twice each car instead of once for every 2.5 cars.
of course the interior is bypolar but to make the and EXTERIOR bi-polar LED is too expensive. the exterior display has to be much brighter than the interior as you have noticed. there is a big difference between the modifications fo the interior and exterior signs which makes one different from the other. go to telecite.com and you will get more info on it.
Who cares about the cost? Less money on something the TA wastes their time on and more money for the multi-color LEDs. Sell more MetroCard backs, maybe add some advertisements. They can get the money.
I can't wait until the 2 and 5 are totally R142 and some passenger who doesn't read the sign gets on a 5 when he wants to go to the west side because he sees a red sign on the front. Maybe that person will be you.
It will never be me. Not until I'm diagnosed with a disease that degenerates the brain.
I meant the people against the bi-colored LEDs. They will probably regret it most.
I rode one myself not to long ago,the cars are very plesent,nice but very bright. what got me was how quiet they were comming into the station. When I boarded the train, of course there was the '' ooohs,and aaahhs',but as the train started to roll -there was a whine!A CONSTANT WHINER TRAIN! but thats ok. they are very nice neverthe less.
i didn't say i cared about how much bi-polar LED'S cost. i'm just telling you why you didn't see them. you think they can get the money but, to them, they won't. if they can find a way to save money, they will. wait till they are dominated by R-142's and you will see how many people who won't make the mistake ur thinking. remember, automated announcements and very sharp defined signs will prevent them from making mistakes. Maybe on the first look people will say are they canging the color of the Routes? you'll see.
Who decided to put the doors closing light where no one can see it? Why isn't is ON the door frame, not IN it?
Why don't you wonder why it exists in the first place? Isn't the door closing a very easy thing to see? Anyway, it exists so that the deaf can see it when they're in the doorway, when they (whether hearing impaired or not) cannot see the doors closing.
Why, the lighting upgrade at 63rd drive, of course! By 2003 they'll be done with this $20 million(and change) project (so that's what it takes for the MTA to change a light bulb!). They're doing the platform (which already has fluorescent lights) as well as the mezzanine (but appear to have forgotten the direct-to-street exits).
As you can tell, they finally put up one of them MTA Rebuilding Your Transportation Network posters.
BTW: all the Queens Blvd stations from at least 65th st to 67th ave are getting the lighting upgrade. Farewell to the incandescent bulb, they won't even be retained for emergency lighting after this, a new emergency light system is included with the fluorescent installation.
(Farewell to the incandescent bulb, they won't even be retained for emergency lighting after this, a new emergency light system is included with the fluorescent installation.)
I replaced almost all mine with compact flourscents. It was the civic minded thing to do.
BTW, did you know the new Stillwell Terminal's roof will be covered with photovoltaic cells? The capital management engineering folks are fired up about environmentalism.
"BTW, did you know the new Stillwell Terminal's roof will be covered with photovoltaic cells? The capital management
engineering folks are fired up about environmentalism."
They're doing the right thing.
[BTW, did you know the new Stillwell Terminal's roof will be covered with photovoltaic cells? The capital management engineering folks are fired up about environmentalism. ]
What a waste of taxpayers money! I understand when Conde Nast makes this kind of PR related experiments, but MTA. I'll bet that a year after the thing gets built it't won't work.
Arti
If the vendor is Hughes "spectrolab," then they've made a WISE choice indeed. Hughes Spectrolab's solar panels have an efficiency in excess of 30% which is *stunning* in the photovoltaic realm ... pricey, but they work. Typical efficiency is 12% just to give the numbers a perspective. If they have good batteries, then this really is a genuine good investment *if* the vendor for the solar gatherers is up there in actual output ... up here in the sticks, solar power DOES work (even in winter) ... especially for water heating. But the real estate it consumes is ... well, not practical in the city usually.
Given the amount of rooftop available though and the prevailing clouds out there most of the year, couldn't hoit ... solar ain't practical for apartments, but if you've got a bit of land, then you do have enough gathering space to make a difference, if the efficiency is up there and you've got a big enough battery room and inverters. Like I said, we do it here to augment and it does work. But you need a LOT of space to do it in. It ain't all that efficient yet. Still, my hat's off for the effort ... it COULD work.
How many Wh would Stillwell terminal roof generate in your opinion (assuming 30% efficiency)
Arti
To answer the title of the post: "an academic grant to find out if dogs really turn around three times before lying down."
And I thought it was the new elevators being installed in the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line.
--Mark
What was the voltage use and lumins of the incandescant bulbs vs. the new flourescent bulbs. And when will the cost saving equal the 20+ million expended be reached? Did they use screw in replacement flourescent bulbs or install new fixtures with tube type bulbs? Warm white or cool white?
avid
Interesting that they use flouresecents. I had thought high-pressure sodium bulbs, used in street lights, were more efficient (low-pressue sodium also, but they give off yellow light, very bright, but some people don't like the effect).
I saw a lighting supervisor at 137 and asked just that question. Sodium and Mercury have ballasts that need servicing at times. The CF(Compact Fluorescent) do not need a ballast and can be changed quicker. The color is a Warm White which seems to be the standard color for CF fixtures.
I've had an all CF-lit house for a few years now (the local utility here subsidizes their purchase, so initial cost is not an issue). I estimate I save about $10 per month on my electric bill. I find the color, brightness, etc. as good or better than incandescent.
I think the fluorescents in the Acela Express trains are way too bright... it's especially bothersome after sunset, as it's really tough to see outside.
Thank you.
in fact, fluorescents DO have ballasts--the gas is excited by a high voltage in it. But many CF lamps are 'packaged' with the ballast as a throwaway. These are typically 'screw-in' units designed for ease of 'retrofit' installation rather than needing an electrician)me for example) to do the work.
Right! I have CFs in my home and the "bulb" plugs into the screw-in base which is the ballast. According to the manufacturer, a ballast can take 3-4 refill "bulbs" before you need a new ballast.
From the MTA webSite these stations are getting rid of incandescent in the mezzanines:
Bowery,
Brooklyn BMT: 45,53,59,77,89,95, Newkirk
A: Hoyt-Schermerhorn, Franklin, Nostrand, Kingston-Throop, Ralph.
Brooklyn IRT: President, Winthrop, Bergen, Franklin, Nostrand.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/ffa/toc.htm
Silly, I know, but - could you please read the REBUILDING poster again. I'm pretty sure that a closer reading will show that it's $20 million and two years to upgrade ALL the stations listed, not just one.
It didn't list any stations at all, so I assume it's only for mine (who else who reads the poster will check all stations?). Also, 65th is nearly complete while 67th is at about the same level as 63rd. They barely started Grand ave, which is the darkest of all stations being done. If all were being done in a bunch they either will be done one at a time or all at the same time, not this half-assed arrangement.
The 2000-2004 Capital Program allocates $66 million for replacement incandescent lighting with flourescent, and $32.6 million of that is for 20 stations in Brooklyn and Manhattan in FY 2002. $20 million is probably the total lighting budget for FY 2001.
Ah, that makes sense. That's probably why they didn't list any stations, it included everything getting a lighting upgrade.
An AP article in Wednesday's Philadelphia Inquirer says that Delaware officials held a public meeting Monday and have not ruled out adding 400 redbirds to a reef 16 miles offshore that already has military vehicles, a tugboat, a barge, and tires. A spokesman said a decision is possible within a couple weeks.
And theres this in todays New York Times.
John.
I've been going through that 'treasure chest' I received last week. So far, the oldest item I've found is a rulebook - circa 1914 from the New York Railway Company. I've also come across some other items which I've scanned. I've also re-scanned the one about the closing of service over the Brooklyn Bridge. If I've done the links correctly, you should be able to view them:
Brooklyn Bridge Notice - 1944
Brooklyn Elevated Railway Stock Certificate - 1880s
2nd Ave. El. Notice - 1942
Jamaica El. ERA Certificate - 1977
Me with a famous porn star - 1999
Enjoy them but no complaints if the links don't work.
well the links are correct! I'm not sure why this doesn't work. I guess you can type in the URL and view it that way.
Right-click the link you want, then click "open in new window" and you'll be able to see it.
The links don't work because Geocities is being a bitch about linking / posting directly to pictures. The only way I found to get to the scans (which are way cool) was to go to /subway and click from there.
How'd you get there. (please be specific).
I clicked on one of the links, when I got to the Yahoo page I deleted the filename from the address bar and hit enter. Voil, directory listing.
Thanks.
I clicked on one of the links, when I got to the Yahoo page I deleted the filename from the address bar and hit enter. Voil, directory listing.
Didn't work for me, what a waste of time.
Bill "Newkirk"
They're great pictures.
Here's what I did: I right clicked on the link and selected "copy shortcut" (Netscape user equivalent: Copy Link Location), then pasted it into the address bar.
It looks like Geocities deleted your pictures. I bet if you read the teenie weenie fine print you violated some rule of theirs about direct links to pix. (Direct links mean they don't get to put a banner on them). I think this is going to get worse, not better, on "free" sites.
Email them to me, if you like, and I'll put them on rapidtransit.net. If you tell me how you want them credited (Collection of "traindude"?) I'll link them from one of my pages. Oh, except the "porn star." OT.
No banners, except maybe "Ride the BMT to the World's Fair" ;-)
A nonprofit craft organization site that I provide DNS service for uses one of the free services. At first they only put a (sometimes obnoxious) banner on the home page. Now they put a banner on EVERY page. AND they have new secondary windows pop up whenever you CLOSE a page.
What's that about "no free lunch."
Geocities didn't delete them. They will not load the images if the referrer is not a geocities.com address.
A referrer is the page in which the image is loaded, or the page on which the link was clicked to access the page or other item.
Cheat: If your browser doesn't send a referrer address, it will load. One way to do that is to put the URL in the address bar and enter, since in that case you haven't been referred by anything (as far as the software is concerned).
Also the referrer information can be filtered away by a proxy server. You can install one locally that does this and many things. Download it from http://www.junkbuster.com
Doing it this way works
Peace,
ANDEE
I tried and no luck. Both left click and right click.
Ouch! Even though it was before I was born, it hurts to see 60 years of railroad/elevated service on the Brooklyn Bridge end with such a bland/bureaucratic notice.
And in the middle of WWII, when public transportation was needed more than ever before.
And in the middle of WWII, when public transportation was needed more than ever before.
What's also odd is the fact that the Second Avenue El was (IIRC) demolished soon after its closing in 1942. Not only was there high demand for transit, but I would assume that labor needed to carry out the demolition was in short supply.
One of the arguments in favor of demolishing the rest of the 2nd Avenue el was that the steel was needed for the war effort more than the transportation was needed for Queens riders.
And remember that the zeal that politicians had for razing all the els in Manhattan was only equalled by the zeal to defeat the Axis powers.
"And in the middle of WWII, when public transportation was needed more than ever before."
That scrap steel was needed for the war effort...........er...Japanese war effort !!
(scrap steel sold to Japan, to be recycled into bombs aimed at US troops. That was a bright idea.)
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, that steel was from the 6th Ave.
THANK YOU ANDEE !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Thank you for sharing them!
--Mark
I got an old brochure announcing the 1985 closure of Queens Blvd. and Metropolitan Ave., which I'll share as soon as I purchase a scanner. I also have one detailing the N/R terminal switch of 5/87 and the chaotic changes of 12/11/88.
>>> 2nd Ave. El. Notice - 1942 <<<
Thanks for the interesting artifacts. While looking at the 2nd Ave. El notice, I gleaned a bit of information about a fact that was in dispute on the board a few months ago.
Originally Queensboro Plaza was two distinct stations, one BMT and one IRT with no common fare control areas between them. Sometime before the Astoria-Flushing BMT shuttles were ended in 1948, the fare control area was modified to allow free transfer between the IRT and BMT at Queensboro Plaza.
The 1942 notice of the closing of the 2nd Avenue El specifically mentions a free transfer between IRT and BMT at Queensboro Plaza. I think this is convincing evidence that the modification of the station took place in 1942 with the termination of 2nd Ave El service.
Tom
Excellent point, Tom.
This was historically significant in several ways. While the New York Board of Transportation had no historical perspective to look to, it is odd that subway ridership was increasing steadily through WWII and into the very early 50s. Yet with the constant ridership growth, they continued to close lines before replacing them. Did they think busses could replace the Els? I guess no one envisioned 2nd Avenue traffic as it is today.
The poster in question refers to the transfer as being at "Queens Plaza Station". Obviously it means what is called Queensboro Plaza today, and not the then-new Queens Plaza IND station, but it does raise the question of the station's name. Were the names "Queens Plaza" and "Queensboro (or Queensborough) Plaza" used interchangeably prior to the building of the IND? I know there were some very old signs which labelled the station "Qveensborovgh Plaza" so the suffix "-borough" was certainly not added to the old station only when the new (IND) station opened.
Beats me. When I was growing up (1950s), everyone I knew called the area Queens Plaza, even though we used the BMT Queensboro Plaza station, and not the IND Queens Plaxa station. The street signs at the time labeled the street as "Bridge Plaza", though now they read "Queens Plaza." This suggests the original name was "Queensborough Bridge Plaza", which would make sense - as the plaza leading to the Bridge. And it further suggests that the other 2 names are abridgements of the original name.
>>> Were the names "Queens Plaza" and "Queensboro (or Queensborough) Plaza" used interchangeably prior to the building of the IND? <<<
In the Maps section of this site there is a 1924 BMT route map which lists the Station as "Queensboro Plaza", and the original plans are titled "Station on Queensboro Bridge Plaza". From this I would deduce that the official name of the station has always been "Queensboro Plaza," and that it takes its name from the bridge.
I have never seen the outside of the IND Queens Plaza station, so I do not know how far it is physically from the Queensboro Plaza station. Maybe one of our historians can tell us, was there perhaps a Queens Plaza before the building of the Queensboro Bridge? And if so, was it somewhat east of where the bridge touched ground? If yes, it would explain the two different names. If not, then steveboatti's parallel post probably explains it, that usage shifted from Queensboro Bridge Plaza to Queens Plaza between the building of the IRT/BMT station and the IND station.
Tom
Queens Plaza and Boulevard (same road) were built when the bridge was built and did not exist before. The BMT/IRT station is above the plaza somewhere between 23rd (where the 7 joins) and 31st (where the N leaves). The IND station is under Jackson Avenue/Northern Boulevard where it crosses Queens Plaza/Boulevard. That intersection is where Jackson becomes N Blvd and Queens Plaza becomes Queens Boulevard.
The BMT/IRT station is above the plaza somewhere between 23rd (where the 7 joins) and 31st (where the N leaves).
31st St and Queens Plaza do not intersect. The N does not leave Queens Plaza on 31st St.
The N turns down Northern Blvd, apparently underpinned by the E, F, G, and R for a few blocks, before turning onto 31st Street.
:-) Andrew
Now I know how ridiculous and annoying picking nits is (not because of you).
Queens Plaza is a few blocks from Queensboro Plaza. It would be difficult, albeit very useful, to build a physical transfer between the two. However, the two stations seem to scream "METROCARD TRANSFER!"
:-) Andrew
My 1947 map calls the IND station "Queens Plaza" and the IRT/BMT station "Queensboro Plaza". The map also shows joint service for Astoria & Flushing lines.
Mr t__:^)
>>>with no common fare control areas between them.
Sometime before the Astoria-Flushing BMT shuttles were ended in 1948, the fare control area was modified to allow free transfer...
Tom: Interesting point here.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I took 2183 today from NY to DC. I had taken the AE from NY to Boston in December.
I had the 2016-2038 trainset today. I was in the second car of the train, right behind first class. The interior LED had a message reading ACELA EXPRESS 2183, SERVICING Washington..
While walking through the train taking photos, the conductor asked me if I was a railfan. I said I was so he took me to the rear power car, 2038. I must say, considering the quiet coaches, the power car is the exact opposite. One can walk from the passenger car straight into the power car and until you get into the cab, you can't even hear yourself talk. The cab itself is quieter but very cramped. There are three LCDs. Two are in front of the engineer's seat on the right side of the cab (provided the train is going forwards). The one on the right shows a speedometer and current time. The one on the left is the same as the one in the cafe car. In front of the "fireman's seat" (as it is still called), the same as in the cafe car is available. Both of them are independant of each other and the one in the cafe car although the one in the engine has one or two things the cafe car does not.
To the far right of the engineer's area is the CBTC and something depicting the PRR signals. There are also door controls.
A few FYIs from the Power Car:
It is called a power car since it can't go in reverse. Want to reverse? Walk to the other end of the train and start from there!
No CBTC between NY and a little north of Hamilton, NJ. In that stretch, the train can only go 125 MPH and reports a false overspeed.
When I was in the cab, we were going 125 MPH and when we entered the CBTC area, we got up to 135.
Other things of note:
A new menu display was in the cafe car but not in use. They had an old menu on the counter.
The pedestal seating works. No one is in the cafe car eating!
Bathroom locks work now.
The Acela has automated announcements! They work with the wheel revolutoins. Only problem is if the wheels skid or lock up, your announcements are off.
Due to computer problems, the stereo, classical music feed, some LEDs, and cafe car TV were inoperable today.
The LCD above each seat will ultimately replace seat checks. Using a handheld thing, the conductor will hold it up to a target and the screen will display your origin and destination. It will say "*EMPTY*"
The LEDs inside the car can say many announcements. They got it to say "PLEASE CHECK FOR YOUR PERSONAL BELONGINGS and "NOW ARRIVING WASHINGTON." I've seen it say "THANK YOU FOR RIDING ACELA EXPRESS" and "THE CAFE CAR IS NOW OPEN SERVING..."
Trains 2180 and 2183 only ran non-stop to capture media attention. They will attain more stops and 2183 will ultimately replace the 4 PM Metroliner.
The train was not totally empty. They announced that 80 guests were expected. The train loaded in about 8 minutes at NYC.
No slowing down for New Carrolton and BWI. At the other stations, we slow down to some extent and recieve several stares at every stop. We also passed thru some MARC stations on the "local" track.
Arrived 4 minutes late. The conductor said the average arrival was 10 minutes late.
To hear about the NYC subway and bus parts of my journey, read the appropriate posts.
The Acela has automated announcements! They work with the wheel revolutoins. Only problem is if the wheels skid or lock up, your announcements are off.
If the wheels skid or lock up, the annoucements being off are probably the least of your worries!
LOL.
I said they should have it like in Chicago where its done with the push of a button and he agreed. Oh well.
Whatever happened to putting some sort of transmitter on the tracks near each station that activates an on-board computer? I believe that is the system in use at Atlanta, and it seems to work very well. It seems as if all the automated announcement systems coming out now are using unreliable measurements from the wheels, etc, to accomplish a task that would be more easily done in other ways.
Is there any reason for the madness?
Thank you for sharing what actually happened. We have very little of that and it is a lot more important than "railfan remarks" about defects. We should be very concerned about public reception of this service and not obtuse remarks from "railfans", valuable as many of them are. Yours truly has spent more than a thousand dollars (if not more) over the past 18 years on New York to Boston (and reverse)Amtrak service and the service has been overwhelmingly late and under the care of crews who are obviously emotionally, intellectually and financially detached from the employer who writes their paychecks. Before you jump too hard, yours truly is a Union man. The people who work for Amtrak are either completely dedicated to it (as they were in a disastrous California Zephyr trip in 1999) or so totally removed from it that they could be working in a beauty parlor (as almost every train crew is when the lights go out in New Haven). If you do not believe that, ask why the lights no longer go out in New Haven! The total incompetence of both the switching and train crews was a major factor in rebuilding the system. Ever see fourteen people reqired to break a train into two sections in the 1940's? Reasonable people will put up with almost anything. It's the explanation, stupid! Wiring the whole railroad is great, but seeing the crews step off the train in New Haven long before the train stopped (over a long period of time) is not indicative of employee loyalty.
Acela? How about basic interest and courtesy?
Sounds like your second trip on AE was a success, and it certainly gave me a preview for things to look for when I take my first AE trip this Tuesday!! -Nick
Have fun! It is well worth the money.
Thank you :-) I'll let all subtalkers know how it went, probably on Tuesday night. -Nick
All this publicity about rising obesity due to the automobile and fast food -- they're talking about an epidemic of adult-onset diabetes -- got me thinking that maybe it isn't so bad that some people live so far from the subways. Since I started my new job, I've been walking up to Grand Army Plaza -- one mile each way -- most days. It's about the only exercise I get.
Which got me thinking, maybe the MTA could start a health club. Just put up partition steel to wall off parts of the station as a restricted access bike lock up. Those huge, empty IND mezzanines would be perfect.
How do you make sure people don't steal the bikes? Perhaps restricted access for club members with a special Metrocard. You swipe to unlock the gate, and only those who swiped in can swipe out and take a bike. Or maybe station agents could do the job at selected stations, now that they won't have to sell tokens anymore. Any ideas?
Mayor announces new fitness program: MTA to turn off escalators at rush hour.
Mayor announces new fitness program: MTA to turn off escalators at rush hour.
They're already broken.
(Mayor announces new fitness program: MTA to turn off escalators at rush hour.
They're already broken. )
Climbing up out of Whitehall Station every other day when the escalator is broken is a workout.
At Roosevelt they always have two going up and the third stopped. There's your workout.
The downtown Berkeley BART station has a 'valet' bike lock-up centered around an excess agent booth. and recently, bike lock fixtures have been installed within fare control at the 16th/Mission station in SF. Both of these stations feature fare control mezzanines as long as the platforms, thus remeniscient of IND designs.
What about the motorized ones , now that the warmer weather has brought out HOGS. Can weuse the ADA ramps and elevators?
avid
NO- but I hear Harleys are allowed to ride around on the ramps at 34th st IND station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds like a bad movie. Motorcylce gang rides through subway station, nearly knocking people off the platform, then only an old grafitti scarred train.
Hi all I'm a New TO on the job for about 5 months. I've been hearing about a 69 key that I should get does anyone know of anyway I can pick one of these keys up at? I went to the locksmith on webster ave in the bronx but they said I need to borrow someone to bring in and id. Like I said I'm new don't know many people on the line yet so I don't know of anyone that will let me borrow theirs. Any info will help thanks
what is a 69 key?
a 69 key is a specialized shape key which opens many doors and part-time exits in the system. All booths have this key.
Who's asking about the 69 key? Comes in handy when closing booths for the night.....
If you can get one that's all well and good. Just remember, as a TO, you are not supposed to have one; otherwise they would have issued you one.
According to a small piece in today's Inquirer, the Delaware legislature is entertaining the acceptance of the Redbirds to be dumped off its shoreline. Despite the refusals of NY, NJ and Maryland, Delaware folks don't seem to be too concerned about the asbestos problem in the car floors and roofs, determining that this will sink to the ocean floor. Surprisingly, the story stated that the cars have 20 years' expected life on the ocean bottom. I would have thought it was longer.
Since every other state has turned the 'birds down, expect the environuts and other enviro-NIMBYs to raise a stink in DE as well. Plus I suspect New Jersey and Maryland are already talking to Delaware.
We shall see.
Let's talk chemistry. Being primarily complex silicates of magnesium, asbestos should be practically insoluble in water. What's more, they should be much denser than water. So I suppose it would just sit at the bottom of the ocean inertly bothering no one. Furthermore, if I recall, its most dangerous as airborne particulate matter, doing its worst damage to the lungs when inhaled. I would think that the redbirds' asbestos would have a hard time becoming airborne when sunken offshore.
So my question is, what are the real risks of the asbestos should the redbirds be sunken offshore? I don't always think of everything, so please fill me in.
Mark
I agree about the real chemistry involving asbestos, but reality is that if the envirofreaks and enviro-NIMBYs hear "those New York subway cars have asbestos in them" the bells start ringing and the protests start. Politicians, always nervous about "public opinion" will usually kill the reef project in their state. That's what happened in New York, New Jersey and Maryland.
The public is so frightened of asbestos, due to the almost paranoid approach to the subject by the assorted media, that any mention brings an immediate fear reaction.
That's really too bad. Not because I'm really emotionally attached to the idea of redbird reefs, but as a chemistry teacher I get to hear doom and gloom reports about the alarming scientific illiteracy in this country, and hearing another one is no fun.
I guess on the positive side, I've been trying to figure out how to turn subways into a chemistry lesson, and now I think I have the opportunity I've been waiting for.
If anyone has any other ideas, let me know.
Mark
Where were all these people when nuclear wastes were dumped into the ocean and later the containers rotted allowing the danger to escape?Not to mention how many toxic things we live with now, sometimes even furnishing and trim in our homes. Or if nothing else things that would be toxic in case of fire. Everybody has a bandwagon to jump on.But they overlook what they want to or don't think about for themselves.
The science teacher in me comes out when I hear things like that, because the problems you cite make a good case for better science education. My view is that if people knew just little bit of basic science, they'd be able to discern environmental scares that are real from ones that aren't. Instead, we have people mobilizing into action over an imaginary threat, like the asbestos is the redbirds, but having no concerns over real threats, like all the greenhouse gases that SUVs dump into the air.
To make things on-topic, better science education would make people not only less afraid of subway cars in the ocean, but more likely to ride the ones on land.
Mark
It took a lot of years for people to realize the dangers of dumping sludge and medical wastes, which went on for quite a while before folks caught on. I think the real hot buttons with the cars are 'asbestos' and 'New York'. In the minds of many, both of these can't be any good no matter what.
I'll be in n.y.c soon and I'm takeing amtrak from salt lake to n.y and the frist thing I'm going to is catch the D train to coney island for an hot dog and try to an souvernier of the subway to take home I love the subway and a piece of n.y. to keep my love of the subway alive
You'll be transferring in Chicago, of course, then take a train into NYP. The D train is one block east of Penn Station (7th Avenue entrance). For good subway souvenirs, try one of the Transit Museum gift shops:
Schermerhorn Street & Boreum Place (Court Street IND Station), Brooklyn (2,3,4,<5> to Borough Hall, A, C, G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, < M > N, R to Court Street, F to Jay Street
Grand Central Terminal (near Station Master's Office, closest track is #37. Near entrance to the Shuttle station), 4,5,6,7,S to Grand Central.
If you can, ride the Q to Sheepshead Bay and transfer there to the D. The Brighton Express is a speedy run and is highly recommended. Not only is it speedy, you get R40 slants, which, in my opinion, are one of the best pieces of equipment in the system (R32's are the absolute best).
Coney's a bloody dump!!
Try the Rockaway if you're looking for some r&r at the beach. Don't go down the "J" at night and avoid the "L" it gets to be rock and roll. Enjoy the NYC experience, there is nothing like it.
Marty.
Go to the Rockaways if you enjoy open wastelands.
Go to Coney Island if you enjoy living in civilizations.
Hey, the Rockaways are kind of like suburbs just you can see to the next block.
When's the last time you were in Rockaway. Civilization sems to be coming back with yet again contractors all over the place buliding these stupid townhouses like they're putting up in the Bronx and East New York. It's not at all what it was ten years ago.
Nice beach in it's natural state without the stench of greasy food like at Coney Island.
Subjective points of views again...
ha ha you let them know lumber man- you didnt like the smell of the elevator from my old projects when i took you there? my old coney island, hey marty i bet you recommending everyone to take the walk from the 3 to the L aint ya.
When's the last time you were in Rockaway. Civilization sems to be coming back with yet again contractors all over the place buliding these stupid townhouses like they're putting up in the Bronx and East New York. It's not at all what it was ten years ago.
I don't care about townhouses. What am I going to do with one when I visit the sea? At least Coney Island has places to go and food to eat.
Nice beach in it's natural state without the stench of greasy food like at Coney Island.
A beach in its natural state has nothing to offer except for the horrid bitch that is sand. At least in Coney Island I can visit attractions and enjoy the pleasant sea breezes. In Rockaway there's NOTHING. And also, all of those Rockaway beaches are just as developed as the ones in Coney Island, except for Fort Tilden.
The best kind of beach is the one that's paved in concrete.
Does anyone know of any resource, either book or on the web, about the Whitestone Branch(LIRR)?
I have some information here .
Here's a timetable from 1928
I never knew Whitestone trains ran to NYP.
I thought they ran only to Long Island City.
Fascinating info. Thanks!
NJT this morning was passing out brochures to try to convince commuters of the need to close the north tube of the tunnels (built in 1877 and poorly maintained) for nearly two years.
They say they are going to have community meetings, customer forums, status updates, blah blah.
Service changes:
- Only the south (1908) tube will be open
- Headways through the tunnel are 2.5 minutes (yikes, is their signalling system that bad)
- Minor schedule changes for most trains
- Some NJ Coast line trains terminate at Newark Penn
- Some M&E line trains terminate at Newark Broad Street
- Five M&E line trains eliminate, two Boonton Line trains eliminated
- Promise to add cars to existing trains and that former express trains will make local stops
NJ Transit claims 1877 as the construction date? If so, they're very misinformed - the tunnels were driven as a pair between May 1905 and November 1908, with the two segments of the north tunnel (they tunneled from both Weehawken and Hackensack toward a central shaft and from that shaft to the two ends) meeting on May 7th, 1908 and June 25th, 1908 with the completed arches meeting on November 14th and 21st, 1908. [American Society of Civil Engineers Transactions, Paper No. 1154 - "The New York Tunnel Extension of the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Bergen Hill Tunnels", presented April 6th, 1910.]
The tunnels they're talking about are the ones under the Jersey City heights serving Hoboken and the M&E/Main/Bergen lines, not the PRR tunnels...
Ahh. Ok. Usually when they make rumbling noises about long, expensive, and inconvenient tunnel repairs they're talking about the sets from the meadowlands to Penn Station NYC.
An article in Friday's Times describes the schedule changes to be effected during the first tunnel shutdown. Looks like a repeat of another article a couple weeks ago from a Jersey paper.
I reccomend anyone who cares about NJ Transit service to retain a copy of all Hoboken div schedules from just before the disruption and compare to the "restored service" ones that will come out after it is done. LIRR tends to "forget" to put back a few trains after service disruptions.
...Is their signalling system that bad...
Until June they've always had 4 tracks to play with, and not all that much traffic going through compared to, say, the LIRR's 4 tunnels. Not much reason to have an efficent operation.
Also keep in mind that the max tunnel speed is very low, no better than 45 MPH.
Peggy has informed me due to not being able to get off on 5/20, the trip has to be ***canceled**.Peggy expresses her regrets, but what Transit wants....
Aren't there other Sundays available? How about one in June?
Transit would have to approve the time off. It would be horrible to reschedule and then face the same lack of response from Transit.
Thanks for caring.
Hi all,
I've received some communication from a service that trades "experiences". I guess it's hard to describe but what it comes down to is that tourists would contact this service to buy an "experience" on their visit to New York City. The experiences are offered by regular people who have an interest in their subject matter (see where I'm going with this?)
As an example, some of the "experiences" available right now are guided tours of Harlem, the Theatre District, Prospect Park (on horseback), Greenwich Village Literary Pub Crawl, Brooklyn's Caribbean neighborhoods, etc etc. Tbese tours are priced at $10-$50 on average. (I'm not sure what the ratio of that being divided between the service and the tour guides, though).
The guy who runs the place contacted me and is interested in us running guided subway tours. I explained that we don't have any behind the scenes access and aren't professional historians and he said that's ok.
So, if you're interested in making a little cash to guide a tour, get in touch with me, with your suggested tour topic. We can put together an agenda, some handouts, and get this going. It sounds like a good opportunity but I don't have the time to do it all myself.
-Dave
I'd be interested, but do you think these folks have it together themselves?
If they're too uncritical, it wouldn't make for a very good experience for their clients.
I would assume it would be like do an instruction demo, in which you'd have to walk folks the hiring company through a complete "experience" so they could judge what their clients would be getting. Is that what they're looking for.
Well don't underestimate yourself, I think we can put together some interesting "packages" for a small fee. I think they would want from us an itinerary but not necessarily a walk through before hand. I get the idea from looking at their web site it's pretty clear you are dealing with private individuals offering the services, and they are just the middleman.
Excellent idea. I will email you my Tel # perhaps we can discuss it when it's quiet (e.g., rarely). It's a great idea, with the knowledge some people have here we can give unlimited tours.
Al
Gee ... paid to railfan .... hmm, sounds like a no-brainer decision to me.
I'll give some thought to some topics and will be in touch.
I guess the Polo Grounds Remnants Tour is out of the question, eh? :)
--Mark
Sounds like a great idea to me.
But (I bet you expected that), is anyone sure that the MTA/NYCT would not have objections. I mean, you know how they are about photos and their "image".
Dave - you have had experience with MTA lawyers - you know how they can get.
Just thought I'd put this observation out on the board.
I happenned to be making a connection at ENY station earlier in the week. I had some time to kill waiting for my East-bound train so I did some walking around the platform. I observed that there are a couple of manholes on the western-half of the sidewalk/platform and noticed that there is lettering in the center of the covers marked: 'LIRR'. This intrigued me as I would have thought that they would have been marked 'DEP' if they were truly sewer-related manholes. I got to thinking that their placement on the station is approximately where the Bay Ridge line's hi-level platform would intersect with the Atlantic Branch as far as positioning is concerned. This manholes could infact be passageways down to the Bay Ridge branch.
Anyone with thoughts on this subject?
BMTman
> Anyone with thoughts on this subject?
Next time bring a crowbar. :-)
-Dave
Hey... I thought this site wasn't supposed to promote illegal activities ;)
Carrying a crowbar isn't illegal :)
--Mark
I wouldn't be too eager to go around popping those things. They might be related to the electric system (bad for you), or signal system (bad for you too, if you mess something up...)
As for a manhole acess - why? I'd assume stairs or something like that.
In any case it would have probbably been patched up durring one of the numerous rehabs of those tunnels...
Ok, so that's a station or two on the Bay Ridge line, right? Abandoned. Did the LIRR ever do any passenger ops "under the wire", or were those stops closed long before the wires came?
AFAIK, the Bay Ridge line stopped passenger service waaaaay back in 1924. And the East New York station of the Atlantic Avenue branch was totally rebuilt (along with the rest of that branch) in the late 30's-early 40's. So there would have been no need for a 'traditional' passenger access to the Bay Ridge.
BMTman
You said they were on the West side of the platforms. Is the Bay Ridge branch that far west over there or is it by the Atlantic Av Station of the Canarsie Line?
By the way, your mentioning the dates of the end of the Bay Ridge Line and the refurbishing of the ENY station answers a question I had about the closed stairways at the extreme east end of the platforms, actually in the tunnel. I thought they might have been connections between the ENY station and the station on the Bay Ridge branch, but now I realize they couldn't be.
Thanks for your message, Sarg.
[Is the Bay Ridge branch that far west over there or is it by the Atlantic Av Station of the Canarsie Line?]
Yes, it's more west as the Canarsie and the Bay Ridge diverge somewhat at East New York Ave. The Bay Ridge runs alongside Van Sinderen (the Canarsie Line turns a bit to the east). The Bay Ridge cuts across at a slight angle to the Atlantic Avenue branch (angling a tad to the west).
As I think I posted previously, those sealed over stairs on the eastern-end were merely an underpass.
BMTman
The track maps I have confirm that they were an underpass.
>>>Next time bring a crowbar. :-)
And do it around 2 AM. The ENY hooligans will not be so eager to mess with a white guy walking around a crow bar in da hood at that time-o-night.
[The ENY hooligans will not be so eager to mess with a white guy walking around a crow bar in da hood at that time-o-night.]
Yeah, but the cops might notice ya....;-D.
LOL!
Sure, as long as I can rely on you to provide the miner's helmets...:-D.
BMTman
The lettering on manhole covers in and of itself means nothing. Manhole covers along a sidewalk adjacent to the LIRR viaduct of the Babylon line in Lynbrook (across from Trainland) say "PRR".
Didn't the Pennsylvania own the LIRR for a time? Thus, such a designation would not be unusual.
Yes, from 1900 to 1966. While commoners say the "PRR milked the LIRR", they were their sugar-daddy and investment banker.
While commoners say the "PRR milked the LIRR", they were their sugar-daddy and investment banker.
Do you mean that the PRR subsidized the LIRR's losses?
Yes they did, capital and operating.
LIRR hasn't made a profit since 1917.
Here's another one, hot off my e-mail.
Today, when things go haywire.
No matter how much planning, engineering or research goes into
anything at all, things go wrong. It's the nature of the beast. And it
is because no matter how well things may work in computer
simulations or how good they look on paper, there is that human
element involved. Even the best engineered product in the world is
subject to failure and most likely at some point, usually the most
critical, it will do just that. You know that old saying about "The best
laid plans of mice and men......"
So with that in mind, we are going to take a two part look at
failures. This part will be mechanical and electrical. The second
part, when it comes along will concentrate on failures resulting from
other factors, including human miscalculations.
So let us begin this little journey with a trip on the Wisconsin
Central. Brian Kruger and I are headed south on T002 one fine
evening. Up to this point, it had been a relatively uneventful trip,
just as we like them. As we approached Grayslake, IL, there was a
sudden and very loud explosion, the engine jerked, a lovely flash of
electric blue appeared before our eyes, the bells began to ring and
the cab immediately began to fill with smoke. You know this is
never good and will certainly not get better on its own.
The smoke was very thick and I can still recall the first thoughts that
came to mind as I was bringing the train to a stop. I have to set this
up so play along at home. How many of you recall a Bob Hope-
Phyllis Diller movie called "Boy did I get a wrong number?" If you
saw it, you'll understand. If not, here's an explanation.
Without going into great details of the movie, it is erroneously
believed that Bob has murdered a famous actress and the law is in
pursuit of him. They are chasing him and firing tear gas and smoke
bombs at his car in an effort to stop him. The car is full of smoke
and he cannot be seen from the outside, nor can he see out the
windows from the inside. Undaunted, Bob keeps driving and turns
on the windshield wipers as if this would help his sight problems.
As I was trying to bring the train to a stop and the cab was
completely filled with smoke, this scene from this movie popped
into my head. Only I could thing of something that at a time like
this.
Needless to say, neither Brian nor I turned on the wipers. We were
however, hanging our heads out the windows trying desperately not
to be asphyxiated by the noxious smoke and fumes emanating
from beneath the floor. I do recall mentioning the plight of Bob
Hope to him at some point during this episode though. This must
have been quite the sight to the folks sitting at the road crossings in
Grayslake.
After stopping and isolating the unit, we immediately headed out to
assess the situation and also fight the fire. And there was a fire all
right; it was coming out of the number one traction motor where the
inspection cover had been blown off. The traction motor leads were
also burning. I was once told this could not happen. I think the guy
who told me this had the last name "Murphy". Nonetheless, it was
happening. We got the fire out with the assistance of one of the on
board fire extinguishers.
With that finished, I went and cut out the one and six motors and
attempted to place the unit back on line. The bells immediately
began to sound again. I attempted to reset the high voltage ground
to no avail. This lead me to believe that the explosion had caused a
flashback into the high voltage system of the locomotive rendering
serious damage. This would mean it was down for the count. And
as it would happen, we only had two units this trip and were
stopped on the side of a bit of a grade. I could not get the train
started and we had to retain the assistance of T219 that was
patiently waiting through all of this in the siding at Leithton.
Why settle for bad when you could easily, and for no extra money,
have worse?
Now we drift on back to early 1985 and a couple of trips on the
MoPac. We were just ushering in the era of cabooseless trains
there. At that time, only trains in the Chicago-Kansas City corridor
were cabooseless on our end of the railroad. I was bringing a
cabooseless St Louis-Chicago train, then called SC, out of the
Grove. The inbound Engineer had reported having trouble
maintaining communication with the tail end. New technology, old
problem. I had many a difficult time maintaining communication
with the tail end on trains equipped with cabooses too, but they
were account low tech reasons, such as the tail end crew checking
of the insides of eyelids for light leaks.
So we head on out with a cantankerous STU (Sense/Transmit
Unit). Within a few miles, I got a radio break and could not restore
the link. I tried the scan feature on the RDU (Receive/Display Unit)
and got an entire new number. So I dialed it in a voila, a re-
established link to FRED! Go figure. This occurred several times
throughout the course of the trip and I was always able to track
FRED down at his new broadcast home. However, at some point,
he got really good at hiding and I could not find him anywhere. He
went stealth. With no luck at all, I notified the Dispatcher that FRED
was no longer talking to us. Upon our arrival at Yard Center, a Car
Inspector replaced FRED with a different FRED. Let's see, there
was a play called "Five guys named Moe", maybe what we had
here was "Five guys named FRED".
We found out later that this was a grounding problem caused by a
contact coming quickly apart and just as quickly reconnecting.
When this happened, it changed the signature of FRED and he
began to transmit elsewhere. One by one, they went back for
repairs to correct this problem.
Several weeks later while working south on a CSK train, a
discussion between myself and the Engineer I was firing for
Leonard Winchester, dealt with fact that several trains had
managed to have FRED drop off while moving. This is usually
terminal for FRED as he is no more agile when falling off a car at
track speed than are most humans. As we passed through
Momence, IL, the RDU on my control stand lets out those now
familiar five loud, rapid fire beeps indicating a serious problem. The
air pressure on my readout had dropped to "00". A few seconds
later, the head end went into emergency and we came to a
screeching halt. This could be anything from a failed air hose to a
train separation, although we didn't feel any serious slack action
prior to the alarm.
Brakeman Roy Johnson dropped off and began to walk and inspect
the train as required by the rules. I had observed that the readout
on the RDU indicated that FRED was still moving. While Roy was
walking, we received the soon to be famous "Radio Break"
message. But it still indicated FRED was moving. I suggested that
maybe FRED had fallen off to the entire crew and they wondered
too. After another five minute period of no update, the final "Radio
Break" alarm and the RDU screen went blank. FRED was now
officially missing in action.
When Roy reached the tail end of the train, he confirmed my
suspicions, FRED was gone. All we had left of our little electronic
Brakeman was his steady mount. The battery and FRED himself
had abandoned ship. The original FRED's the MoPac purchased
were a knuckle mount type. The mounting bracket slid into hole in
the knuckle and the battery and then FRED himself were attached
to the bracket. The mount was still in place sans the other two
pieces of the puzzle. We notified Pence Tower who in turn,
informed the Dispatcher of our plight. We were instructed to
proceed without him and not to give search.
Shortly after our departure, an empty coal train was coming off the
Conrail wye behind us at Pence to head back to Captain Mine for
reloading. The crew on this train found our little lost boy and pulled
him from the shores of the Kankakee River. They brought his
lifeless and heavily damaged body to the Grove with them and laid
him out in state. It wasn't pretty. I'm certain the folks at Pulse
weren't really pleased that one of their offspring had died so young
either.
Once again, back to Pulse for repairs and modifications to the
brackets. Ain't technology great?
Since we are on FRED stories, still another. This happened two
summers ago here on the CNIC. I was running I-143, a short lived
intermodal train south one sunny afternoon. As we approached
North Gilman, the air began to drop of the readout of my CDU
(Control/Display Unit). CDU's came about with the advent of two
way telemetries. I mentioned this fact to my Conductor Charlie
Peck and just about then, the rapid fire five beeps and "00" on the
box. Then, the air went on the head end. We were figuring broken
train line. We soon learned we were half right. When Charlie gets
back to the tail end, he finds that FRED had blown out his lifeline
air hose. It came out at the fitting where the hose connects to the
side of FRED himself. This meant that even though FRED was still
alive, he was for all practical purposes, "handicapped". No way to
treat FRED for this ailment in the field, so it became a 30 mph trip
the rest of the way to Champaign.
My trip south this past Tuesday evening on 322 had FRED's light
fail. It happens from time to time; they either burn out, break or
become disconnected somehow. I guess this would make him
dysfunctional. Either that or he was rather bashful and really didn't
want to flash anybody that night. All of the vital information was still
available and I had two way control, he just wouldn't open up his
eye for the world to see.
Since we are now discussing lights, let's talk headlights.
Sometimes they will burn out enroute. I have had this happen many
times over the years. No big deal though as there are two sealed
beams and generally, only one of them fails at a time, so we still
have light and can proceed. On this particular night though, we
really lost it.
I was working T218 on the WC and we had just come through
Burlington, WI when all of a sudden there were soft popping
sounds like those that one hears in those old Frankenstein movies
when the Doctor has all that electronic stuff fired up. Then, a really
loud pop and suddenly, total darkness. Of course, it is late at night
and we really need that headlight. I quickly get stopped and we
assess the situation. It seems that the resistor grid for the front
headlight has decided to give up the ghost. This essentially means
we are screwed. It is pitch dark and there is no moon at all.
According to the rules, we can place a white light on the front of the
engine and proceed at reduced speed ringing the bell constantly
and sounding the whistle frequently. The only white light we have is
the Conductor's lantern, and that isn't going to be of much good. I
should also mention that this was in the era before ditch lights were
required in the US.
But as luck would have it, we had two units this night. Normally, we
only had one on this train, but there was particularly heavy loading
this evening, so we had two units with the second one being one of
the rare ex-Milwaukee road SDL39's. And as luck would have it,
this unit was also facing east, the direction we were heading. And
still luckier yet, I had managed to stop very close to an industrial
lead, so we had a place to switch out the power. The railroad gods
were somewhat kind to us in our hour of need that night.
Then, we have rain on the inside of the cab. In my days at the
CCP, we used to deliver and spot loaded coal trains and pull empty
ones from the Commonwealth Edison power plant in Plaines, which
is just south of Joliet. This particular day we were heading engines
lite south on the ICG Joliet District enroute to Plaines to pull and
bring back the empties. As luck would have it, the rains came. Not
just any kind of rains though. No, these were those torrential kind
that make it impossible for wipers to keep up. Even those five
hundred stroke a minute kind. This is what is commonly referred to
as the old "Cow pissing on a flat rock" rain. So what's a little rain
when we're inside where it is safe and dry? And we were inside the
cab of a former Milwaukee Road GP20. Where better to be, right?
My Conductor was one Timmy Foster who would later join me at
the WC. I cannot recall who the Brakeman was though. Timmy and
I had caught many of these coal train moves together. He suddenly
noticed that there was as much water inside the cab as there was
outside. It was gushing down through a hole that was in that cab
roof somewhere not visible to us. As it poured through, the water
was both dripping or should I say running straight down as well as
following a trail directly into the high voltage cabinet, through this
cabinet and then out onto the cab floor.
Let's do a very quick inventory and analysis of the situation. Inside
the high voltage cabinet are reverse contactors, power contactors
and 600 volts. I know they always say "It is not the voltage that kills
you, it's the amperage", but I had no desire to test this theory first
hand. Now added to this mix is water. The cab floor is now
becoming a lake from all the water coming in. The potential now
exists for us to become like all those bad guys in "The Green Mile"
and get our own version of the electric chair. We have already set
our grips up on the coat hangers on the doors to the high voltage
cabinet. Water, high voltage and us. Not a great mix. I quickly
isolated this unit so as to greatly reduce the risk of getting toasted.
So here we are, somewhere near Lamont, IL, it is blasting down
rain, the cab is flooding and we cannot see where we are going.
This is the kind of stuff that really makes railroading great. I
decided that enough was enough and brought our move to a stop
while we attempted to plan a strategy. Or at least ride the storm out
anyway.
"A stopped train is a safe train."
Within a couple of minutes it turned from end of the world rain into
a summer shower. Shortly thereafter, it let up altogether and
stopped. We bailed water out of the cab, used up most of the
paper towels to dry things out and went about our business.
However, that old Geep was left off line as I was unsure of what
damage may have occurred behind those closed doors. I certainly
had no desire to see what secrets were being kept behind green
doors. If I recall correctly, that unit went back to Waterloo isolated
too. Let those folks that play with voltage and amperage for a living
have at it. They are highly trained and skilled professionals. If
anybody is going to get knocked on their ass, better them than me.
And speaking of getting knocked on their ass, our final chapter in
this little ditty. Two brief stories to tell. In my early days of
railroading, there were numerous pre "dash 2" locomotives in
service. It was more common to get them than the newer power
with all of their solid state components.
One winter's evening while I was still a pup Trainman, I get called
late at night to dogcatch a dead train, L&N 718. We board the train
at Chicago Heights with a plan to take it to the BRC's Clearing Yard
in Bedford Park. We had an L&N SD35 in the lead. It was having
transition trouble and the Engineer I was working with confidently
told me "I can solve this." Okay, go ahead, what do I know?
He proceeds to open the doors to the high voltage cabinet and
begins to tap the transition relay with a flagstick. All of a sudden
there is a big arc and this arc shoots across the cab striking the
water cooler. There was a very loud KABOOM!! and again, a lovely
shade of electric blue appeared before our eyes. The top of the
water cooler blew off and some of the water came blasting out the
top and onto the floor. The rest started pouring out the hole that
had been burned in the side from the blast of electricity. He quickly
closed the doors and that was that.
In my innocent way I asked "Is that how you do that?" He told me
to shut up and do something that was sexually impossible and we
never, ever discussed the situation again.
While a student Engineer in 1980, I had Road Foreman of Engines
George Brown riding with me to see how well I was progressing in
my training. We had a MoPac GP18 in the lead and of course, it
was having transition trouble. So George tells me to do the flagstick
trick of whacking the transition relay to clear off any rust or dirt that
may be on it and causing transition to fail. Like any other young
idiot trying to impress his boss, I make the attempt to do just that.
Well, apparently I came in contact with something that I really didn't
need to be in contact with. I got zapped big time and knocked all
the way across the cab. My left arm was stuck straight out what
seemed to be forever and there was this deep, bassy, buzzing
sound in my head during that same time frame. I regained my
composure and looked at the flagstick while George and the
Engineer both kept asking me if I was okay. I guess I was because
I am still here. As I regained my senses, I noticed the end of the
flagstick was burned. I wanted to do the Curly thing and say "Oh,
oh oh, oh look!" It was at that point in my career that I decided that
I would not ever reach into a high voltage cabinet again. And I
haven't.
And so it goes.
Tuch
The Oaks Model RR Club has posted some new ACELA movies. Basically at Croyden PA the ACELA train 2180 and the Metroliner train 102 have a bit of a race and the Oaks guy has viedo taped it. I'm not sure what's more amazing, the AEM hauled Metroliner keeping pace w/ an ACELA or the fact that it is doing it on the SEPTA local tracks.
Here are the URL's
The movie site: http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/moviearchive.html
Acela race 1 http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Amtrak/010501_Acela_Croydon.mpg
Acela Race 2 http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Amtrak/010509_Metroliner_Acela.mpg
I think both parts are amazing!
>I'm not sure what's more amazing, the AEM hauled Metroliner keeping pace
>w/ an ACELA or the fact that it is doing it on the SEPTA local tracks.
The facxt that it's doing it on Septa tracks. That an AEM-7 can keep pace with an acela doesn't surprise me in the least. They're excellent locomotives, and they're proven temselfs time and time again...
Just added another one of yesterday's 624 racing 2150. Will have today's race on site this weekend.
Yeah. TOASTERS ROCK!!
Today while at Brooklym Bridge station I saw a train of R62's with Yankees Stickers on them. The only two car I got were the north moter and C/R postion the 1596 & 1511. Does anyone have info of any other cars with stickers on them.
Robert
The Cars numbers were 1586 & 1511. The stickers were over the MTA logos.
Robert
Yes, Car #'s 1586-1590 and 1511-1515 have the logos on them. However it was car # 1415 that was in the WS parade.
I saw two WF R36 cars with the Mets logos yesterday. Can't recall the unit numbers though.
I only got the south moter of the train it was 6301. It was making Sim stop going uptown. It look like the first five car side sign were not working, with the back five working. I was on a Brooklyn bound 2 train at the time so I could not hear if the anncement were working.
Robert
6301-6310 was the first to be on the property. It was also the first and only R142 that I have rode. I was looking at 6320 yesterday while working the 5 and it seems as if when they pulled of the Yankee wrap ad, a piece of black paint from the top came off as well.
that is to be the next to come into service next week. eithr that or 6411-20, 6391-6400 or 6311-20
I've seen quite a few transit maps, and, IMO, The MTA's "The Map" (and the individual borough bus maps) are the best available FREE for nothing.
I'm using my own subjective criteria of attractiveness, information provided, timeliness, usefulness, completeness and, if you will, collectability.
For nicest map, free or paid, I think I will give the edge to the Philadelphia maps of the PTC, carried on by SEPTA. Unfortunately, they're not such a bargain now (up to something like $8.00?) and they're not updated nearly as often. But they're an outstanding, detailed and attractive guide that is a street-level map as well.
Agree? If you disagree, which map(s) are nicer?
I agree that the NYC subway map is the best of the bunch, at least of what I've seen.
(The London Underground maps are just gorgeous, but they don't contain all the information the NYC maps have, and we all know how well a London-style map worked here.)
But I prefer the pre-"The Map" incarnation in NYC. The subway map was easier to read and the strip maps were quite useful.
But I prefer the pre-"The Map" incarnation in NYC. The subway map was easier to read and the strip maps were quite useful.
I think the current subway map looks better even without Staten Island or the bus bubbles. Its colors make more sense.
But yes, the strip maps were good, but one can get those in a schedule and they were only throwbacks to the time of the spaghetti map.
For the subway, I sort of prefer the "pre-'The Map'" version. I guess I like the colors and contrast on it. And Staten Island on "The Map"--OY! I know it's not supposed to be to scale, but it looks smaller than Manhattan, and it's ridiculously out of place too. It should have been an inset (and might have been more appropriate on the Commuter Rail side.) The "bus bubbles" are a really good idea, though.
Even so, "The Map" is an excellent piece of work--and you can't beat the price! Whatever minor problems on the subway side are more than made up for by the resurection of the Commuter Rail map on the other side (for years maps were only available for the individual railroads.) Sure Rockland and Orange are out of scale, but that might have been a necessity to fit the whole Commuter Rail system on one map.
The Bridges and Tunnels inset looks ridiculous, and screws up the route numbers of the Bruckner ("I-27"?) and Sheridan ("I-89"?) Expressways.
:-) Andrew
It's nice that there's a unified commuter rail map, but why is it on the back of the subway map? The vast majority of subway riders never set foot on commuter rail. The commuter rail map should have been published separately and the strip maps retained on the subway map.
"The Map" is good for tourists. When you're new to NY, and you want to know how to get around, having everything on one folded piece of paper is convenient.
Besides, how do you know the vast majority of subway users have never ridden commuter rail?
If nothing else it's good for general awareness purposes. The first time The Map came out, my dad-- who had lived in Manhattan, then Westchester, for over 25 years-- learned of the existence of the LIRR. I'm sure thousands of other people suddenly became aware of all kinds of transit they never knew existed before. Sort of like how I've witnessed quite a few subway riders learning about the existence of the M60 to LGA only because of the automated announcements on the R-142A's.
The unified map of transit in NYC fits in perfectly with the MTA's new slogan ...
MTA Metro North Railroad, MTA Long Island Railroad, MTA New York City Transit, one system going your way, and with Metrocard, faster and easier than ever before
... or something like that.
--Mark
"The vast majority of subway riders never set foot on commuter rail."
Maybe, maybe not. But a lot of commuter rail passengers use the subway, if only because not every office building in Manhattan is within a brief walking distance of Grand Central Terminal or Penn Pit.
So they can call it "The Map"? There might also be economies to publishing everything on one large map rather than breaking down into separate maps.
One thing I like about The Map is that it will be a big aid to future historians, since it contains a reasonably accurate snapshot of the system at any given time.
That's one of the things that makes the older PTC maps so useful. It traces which routes were trolley, which were trackless or bus, at any given time.
Do the strip maps on the schedules explicitly list precise cross streets? I know they don't group colors together, which always made for interesting results.
One problem with "The Map" is that the subways are on one side, the commuter rail on the other. That's because of scale problems.
While at DCP, I produced a "catogram" map with the size of each county changed to reflect the number of people working in them (1990 census, journey to work data) -- but approximate positions and shapes maintained. Needless to say, Manhattan was very big. The idea was to show things in a regional context, given that dense areas have more stuff. I was sure to position everything so that rail lines could be geographically "correct."
Like everything else I did at City Planning, it came to nothing. But I still have a copy of the map.
"Like everything else I did at City Planning, it came to nothing. But I still have a copy of the map."
Larry, that may be a great map for demographers, for election officials, for people who make atlases and almanacs. The underlying databases would be useful.
But, honestly, what did you expect the city to do with it? Maybe you need to accept some responsibility for why "it all came to nothing" happened for all the years you were there.
I've been a situation where it was clear I was being underemployed, not appreciated at all, and nothing I said was valued by the powers that be. Since I had no political support, I resigned early rather than beat my head against a wall.
I'm sure you're glad you're out. Perhaps a sooner exit would have been better for you...
I would agree that "The Map" is the best of the bunch. It has a lot of detail on it. The not-to-scale problem tends to deceive you about where your intended address of destination really is once you get off the train, but you can use an excellent borough bus map (also free) to fix that.
I have bugged the MTA to update the list of ADA stations on it (which they have) and to make sure the symbology is there on all applicable stations. SEPTA's maps aren't bad either, but they aren't updated often enough. 30th Street is not shown as accessible, for example.
One point to note: For some reason, MTA's website "The Map" is out-of-date and not matching the latest printed map. I guess they don't produce it from the same "master" used on the printed map.
For me as a foreigner, I found that the Subway Map of New York is rather difficult to read because there is so much imformation on it and it is not in scale(Usually a subway map does not make it in scale for simplification). This is a problem of a complicated system. But this map is too big to use. I don't understand why a London Undergroud map can as small as a calander card(unable to read it) while a New York map is as big as a street map. May be the New York system is more extensive. :p
There is a small version of The Map that folds up into the same size as a Metrocard or credit card, though to do this it omits the transfer bubbles and the list of part/full-time routes next to each station circle (which is problematic at Columbus Circle, where a single "express stop" circle is used for both the IND and IRT lines, incorrectly implying that the 2/3 stops there).
"Agree? If you disagree, which map(s) are nicer?"
MTA's "The Map" is excellent, no doubt, but the RTA System Map in Chicago is more inclusive. One side is the front of CTA's "Bus & Rail Map" showing all CTA train, CTA bus, Metra, and Pace (suburban bus) routes in Chicago proper and the near suburbs. The back of the CTA map is travel information, but the back of the RTA system map is the entire commuter rail and suburban bus network. Yes, every last blessed line in the system!
I realize that "The Map" doesn't show buses on either the city (subway) or metropolitan (commuter rail) sides because the scale would have to be adjusted and the map would either have details too tiny or the map too large. I also realize that there are separate MTA bus maps available for each borough. Nevertheless, Chicago is JUST small enough that we can pull off putting all city transit on one side of a map and all suburban transit on the other. :^)
Is the Chicago Map free? How do people get one?
I got mine by writing the CTA... email from their web site, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do not like the current version of "the map". The version that they changed from about 2 years ago was the much better map. All the lettering was bigger and it was much easier to read. They made everything smaller just to include Staten Island.
But who knows, the TA already performs the majority of administrative duties such as labor relations and medical assessments for the SIRTOA, maybe the SIRTOA will be incorporated into the NYCTA? Just a thought.
If the SIRT formally becomes part of the TA, people there might start to wonder why their "subway line" isn't connected to all the other subway lines.
When will be next delivery of R143's to ENY yard? If it is tomorrow what time?
They get delivered to ENY? I thought they went to 207.
It first go's to 207 then a R38 would tow it to ENY.
Wait, what happened to that yard in Brooklyn near the waterfront, the one on the B line just south of 36th Street Station, which has the carfloat connection? Weren't all subway cars delivered there first, regardless of which division they were bound for? I never knew that 207th street had a carfloat connection, or even a rail connection to a class one railroad. Also, why would A division subway cars go to Pitkin yard of all places, unless you are referring to a recently built complex near the Canarsie line where it crosses the 3 line. Fill me in on the details so that I do not feel like the railfan who is out in the cold.
My mistake - R-143 is B division, R-142 is A division. But why and how do they get delivered to 207th Street? And when did deliveries stop going to that yard in Brooklyn?
They are flatbedded by tracker-trailer to 207th Street Yard.
Only cars from Canada (Bombardier) got delivered to Linden Shops in Brooklyn (it is an old LIRR freight yard).
BMTman
To 207th, they get there by Tractor Trailer. They don't use that carfloat in S. Bklyn because it would be silly to use a boat when the cars are built in Yonkers.
You are right, that makes sense. 207th Street does have the equipment to do the same type of work on the cars as Coney Island, so there should be no problems with that. Now correct me if I am wrong, but is ENY yard the same as Pitkin, or is it the yard where the J and the L are maintained? Both are in East New York ( or close to it ) but I get them confused. Which lines are slated to get the 143's any way?
The "L" line.
They will be isolated there.
No some will goto the "M" for uses as OPTO, for night and weekends.
Robert
That OPTO might work on the Franklin Ave. shuttle, but on some other lines, forget it. Once the clowns realize that there is only one person working the train late at night, one or more of them will try to go for a joyride after incapacitationg the operator. Hopefully there will be a transit police presence to thwart such a scenario. Criminals are very opportunistic, and will make mischief at the slightest chance.
Won't some operate the entire "M" route? I remember seeing in some long ago proposed car assignment that R143s would operate over the "M".
There will be enough of a spillover that some will be assigned to the M all times (not just loaned for the off-hour shuttle)
Great. Of course, seeing how the R42 class will go the way of the $3.00 toll on the Outerbridge Crossing, then we can expect a total R143 fleet on the "M" in the years to come.
There won't be enough R-143s to fill out the total fleet of the M, since they have to fill out the total fleet of the L first. Expect the R-40Ms or R-42s to hang around on the M for a while, and when the R-160s arrive, the M will probably be a split fleet between the R-143s and the R-32s that will likely migrate over from the IND and the BMT Southern Division.
In the plan I heard, 160's will be split between 4 and 5 car units, filling out the rest of the eastern div., with the rest going to the main lines.
It would be nice -- and justice -- if they did do that, seeing that outside of the handful of R-42s back in 1969-70, the Eastern Division has gotten no new eqipment since the R-16s back in 1954-55. But I'm skeptical that when push comes to shove with the local politicians and their favorite (highest voting) constituencies, the R-160s don't end up on the B Division's "showcase" lines -- those running through midtown Manhattan -- while the R-32s get shifted over to the J/M/Z.
I'll bet they're thinking overnight/weekend 4-car OPTO, so no R32.
Even if the R-32s did go to the J/M/Z, I don't think that's such a bad thing. They're running very well.
--Mark
Compared to the R-42s or some of the other rolling stock that has preceeded it there -- including getting the R-16s back for their painful dying days -- I don't think it's a bad idea, either. But if it does turn out that the 32s don't go over due to OTPO incompatibility and they do get the new R-160s, that won't be a bad thing, either.
The 5 car units will go to the main lines, but there will still be a bunch of 4 car units for the Eastern div.
No, they wont. Ive read on the T.A'S own site the the R160 were headed for ENY Yard and Coney Island.As far as im concerned ,that means ''J,M,Z'' service. and my train will be the best...........
Like I said -- it would be nice if they do end up on the Eastern Division, and if they replace all 1,000 or so of the R-38/40/40M/42s, they would still have many left over for service on the IND or the BMT Southern Division. But given the MTA's track record towards the Eastern Division over the years (how about that Chambers St. station?), I have my doubts they'll follow through and stock all the Eastern Division lines 21st Century equipment if someone down at Jay St. decides they want to "show off" the cars on the trunk lines than run through Midtown Manhattan.
The only way the east won't get any R-160s is if there are enough R-32s for it. Are there enough?
Minus the 10 GEs and the few silverliners that have been removed from service, there are still about 580 of 'em (3350-3949, plus 3348, of course) going strong. Added to the incoming 212 R-143 trains, the two together would give the Eastern Division just under 800 cars, if they decided to do it that way.
Given the current break-out of the R-40/40M/42 fleet that's over in East New York, there are about 550 or so of those cars (between 4400-4950) assigned to the J/L/M/Z. So once you add in the R-143s they could fill out the Eastern Division fleet with either all R-32s or all R-160s and still have cars left over for the IND and BMT Southern Division.
Believe it or not, 207 once had a floatbridge. The gantry still exists, but there is no longer a track connection.
They are not going to tow brand new cars with an R38.
They must Tow it with something.
because the R-143 is heavier than an R-38, not to damage and anticlimber, R-38 will not tow an R-143. (TA will never use revenue cars for work cars when they aren't retired) first of all, they arent compatible and second the only way it will be towed is by GE locomotive crane.
Must be a newer rule because in June 1968, I saw several Flushing R33 or R36 cars pulling a flat car on the Jamaica El, early afternoon.
It was quite a treat. It was graduation day from 6th grade, and the class was walking to Jahns near Lefferts Blvd.
They get towed buy three Locomotive tonight to ENY yard. They will use the same route they use last week, after the lasr one is off the truck at about 1:00am.
Robert
Robert is right, you will never tow brand new cars that have never been tested with revenue equipment. I just get so annoyed with these posts (and the general direction subtalk has turned) that state "R38's will tow the new cars" over and over when that falsehood has been explianed.
Enough venting from me... it's Friday (payday to boot).
I know this is how it hapen becouse this it what I was told last week when 8101 came off the truck. The Superviser told me that they have better controll with desels going though the system and over the brige.
Robert
What about that little matter of exhaust fumes in the tunnels ?
It doesn't matter. Most of the work fleet is diesel, save for a handful of dual modes, and they run through the tunnels all the time.
Somebody here said that the R-110A's were towed by a train of R-32's (or R-38's). So, who's right here?
I guess the 110A's were lighter than the 32's. Anyway, the 110A's were towed dead to Pitkin.
110's are accepted for revenue service so there is no problem towing it with revenue cars. Though I bet teh TA didn't want to do it as first choice.
They use diesel locomtives to tow the cars. They've done this with the R-142s and with 62s, 62As, so on and so forth.
-Stef
What they tow it with is one of the SBK diesels or a regular MOW 50-ton loco.
One of the older cars like an R-32 can't even couple with the R-143's anyway as they have a totally different coupling mechanism.
BMTman
Transit can do it with the appropriate coupler adapter. It just so happens that R-143 8101 was fitted with a coupler adapter so it could couple with Loco 886.
It's not impossible to use working MUs as tow motors either. Take the case of the R-110A. It was towed dead to 207th St Yard with R-62As from the 1. Peculiar practices, but they do work.
For an initial delivery, they'll use diesels. For dead tows, Transit could opt to use working MUs.
-Stef
Want proof that all news is biased? Consider these two reports in today's financial press ... both of which deal with precisely the same data:
Cnnfn.com - Sales at some of the nation's largest retail chains showed only modest gains in key measures of April sales Thursday as consumers continued to fret about layoffs and the slowing economy.
CBSMarketwatch.com - U.S. retailers posted surprising gains in same-store April sales, drawing cheers on Wall Street.
In a similar fashion, the retail sales for the Christmas season just past were headlined as the worst in 10 years when in fact they were the best ever. The percent of increase over the previous year was the smallest in 10 years.
And, as Harry Truman once said, "If you took all the economists in the country and put them end to end, they would point in all directions."
Things haven't changed much in fifty-plus years, have they?
And, as Harry Truman once said, "If you took all the economists in the country and put them end to end, they would point in all
directions."
More accurately, every direction except the right one.
I just read on the New York 1 web site, www.ny1.com that the MTA is going to spend $89 million to completely renovate the 53rd and Lexington Avenue Station. It will be new walls and ceilings, additional escelators and elevators, and an additional transfer to the #6 train. The project should take about 4 years.
So this means that no (E),(F),and (V) service?
That's good. Today it looks like &*#%!
Even if it means completely closing the station, that won't effect the F. Presumably by then it will be going by 63rd. The V could be detoured that way too, as can the E if absolutely necessary.
:-) Andrew
They are? THAT'S WONDERFUL!! That station is the most disgusting awful nasty ugly station in the system. With the possible exception of Roosevelt/Jackson Heights on the QB line. They have closed the bus depot there for (get this) asbestos removal.
Any plans to rennovate Roosevelt/Jackson Heights?
Dan
They do plan on renovations at 74-Roosevelt. Dont know when it will start.
Yes- Queens Plaza is also planned for rtenovations-here too start date unknown.
The asbestos is being removed so the building could be demolished.
I just read on the New York 1 web site, www.ny1.com that the MTA is going to spend $89 million to completely renovate the 53rd and Lexington Avenue Station. It will be new walls and ceilings, additional escelators and elevators, and an additional transfer to the #6 train. The project should take about 4 years.
$89 million and four years? Hmmmm, I wonder what a project of similar magnitude (though obviously not of the same type) would take in the private sector ... I'll guess $35 million and one year.
Considering it took the MTA 4 1/2 years just to rennovate one stairway enrtance to the Grand Central Shuttle on the northwest side of 42nd and Madison, I have my doubts about a four-year timetable for the entire 53rd St. station complex...
We can always ask Donald Trump to do it and I'll bet it will be done in six months.
That's what the sign said on a small door at the end of a bench seat on an R-142A. I am assuming BCO stands for Brake Cut Out. What does PBCO and SBCO stand for ?
Bill "Newkirk"
PBCO = Parking Brake Cut Out
Shawn.
Parking Brake Cutout -- Service Brake Cutout ???
I'm only guessing.
The PBCO cuts out the spring-applied, air-released parking brake.
The SBCO cuts out the service air brakes.
The BCO cuts out both.
Ooops, that was truncated. The last sentence should read:
The BCO cuts out both service and emergency air brakes.
To elaborate, the propulsion and braking control package (a
microprocessor unit) has two outputs to the Apply and Release
magnet valves. These sound similar to SMEE parts, but they are
not trainline. They set up the service brake cylinder pressure.
There is no lockout magnet valve. There is an emergency relay
valve which hangs off the Brake Pipe. When the BP is charged, air
from the A&R valves is relayed to the brake cylinders. In emergency,
the A&R valves are disregarded and the valve pneumatically relays
emergency cylinder pressure to the cylinders.
The SBCO cuts out the brakes at the outlet of the A&R magnet valves
only. It is used when the electronic brake control package has
gone west and won't release the brakes. Using just the SBCO has
no effect on emergency braking. The BCO cock {hhh} blocks off
all air to the cylinders and vents them, cutting out all air brakes.
This would be used in the event of a brake pipe rupture.
The PBCO is a separate device which mechanically retracts the
spring-applied parking brake. If the car has a main reservoir
rupture or otherwise has lost its air, these need to be used
to release the brakes.
WARNING.....THIS IS NOT AN R-142 BASHING POST !!
Today I was riding the #6 Pelham line doing some photography. I got on car #7244 at Westchester Square heading south. The announcements seemed fine except for the male "closing doors" bit which seemed a bit louder, other wise everything OK.
However, at Soundview, the "ding dong" seemed much higher in pitch. Now here comes the funny part. Approaching Elder, the voices, I KID YOU NOT, sounded speeded up, just like The Chipmunks !!!
A couple of people in the car snickered in amusement, but I got off at Whitlock to do some shooting of the curve, so I have no idea if the announcements continued as such or was it turned off.
If any of you are shaking your heads in disbelief, I swear on my Newkirk Ave station this happened !! The female station announcment voice was very high in pitch and speeded up so you couldn't make out what she was saying.
In fact, I was on this train at Pelham Bay Park with other people and we were told to board another train (R-62A) across the platform. Perhaps there was some trouble ? Inside end signs said Not In Service.
The car number was #7244, but other cars could be affected. The time I expeienced this was about 1:30PM or so. There was a post here about using celebrity voices to break the monotony. Did the TA hire Alvin, Theodore or Simon for this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
THATS REALLY FUNNY!!!
You shoud have a tape recorder if this happens again.
Hey did the same thing happen on the MBTA trains Once?
"Hey did the same thing happen on the MBTA trains Once?"
Hmm, I've ridden the red line 01800s and the green line type 8s, but it has never happened when I've been riding. -Nick
This also happened in a LI Bus too with the automated announcements. They had a speed fluctuation, sounded like the Chipmunks. I don't believe there is a tape, so I have no idea how that could happen.
Very strange, indeed...especially with the announcements being digital/fiber optic. -Nick
Even digital recordings can be played back at different speeds.
My guess is that the playback circuit lost track of what speed the voice announcement needed to be played it.
Of course "automated station announcements" is a cursed technology. I think it was first tried on PATH shortly after its building (when it was the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad), and it never worked then. My favorite is the trains heading to Suffern that say "Hoboken Express via Boonton."
NJT gets it to work on the HBLR by cheating -- they have wire loops in the ground broadcasting a signal near the station so there's no way it can go wrong.
Of course "automated station announcements" is a cursed technology. I think it was first tried on PATH shortly after its building (when it was the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad), and it never worked then. My favorite is the trains heading to Suffern that say "Hoboken Express via Boonton."
NJT gets it to work on the HBLR by cheating -- they have wire loops in the ground broadcasting a signal near the station so there's no way it can go wrong.
Cheating? I call that the right way to do it. Wheel rotations just don't make any sense - you're assuming too much. That's why all of the systems in the r142 are so buggy - the engineers made bad decisions by making too many assumptions. The only way to make anything really reliable is to assume nothing. I apply that rule in my work creating web applications, but applies equally to designing subway cars, or any kind of system.
Here's how I would design an announcement system: Barcodes. Use the same technology and equipment as the bridge and toll-road systems that use barcodes. The difference would be that the scanner would be on the vehicle. It could be smaller and cheaper since it's a non-critical system - like the gun-style barcode readers at retailers. Then have reflective barcode stickers in the tunnels to indicate location. The barcodes would be big - bumper-sticker size.
It would be very cheap, simple, and reliable. Changing the announcements wouldn't have to involve moving the barcodes - they just serve as reference points. The system on the train could still be set to give different announcements for an express, etc. But it would always know exactly where it was. When the barcodes get dirty or damaged, just slap a new one on for a buck or two. It doesn't get much cheaper, easier, or more reliable than that.
It sounds very interesting. It seems like the T/A did hire Alvin and the Chipmunks to do the voices on the R-142As. It must have sounded awfully funny when the automated voices were running at Chipmunks speed. It would have been great to have had a tape recording of it.
BMTJeff
So I assume David Seville was the T/O on that particular train? :-)
No, Ross Bagdasarian.
Record it and slow it down, perhaps one could figure out the exact value the speed was increased by?
Very interesting point. If one should happen to be using a tape recorder at the time the announcement system on the R-142 subway cars goes haywire then one can determine how much the speed value was increased by.
BMTJeff
Had you recorded it and played it back at normal speed, but in
reverse, you would have heard the message "IRT Rules, Bring Back
to Lo Vs"
"We're the Chipmunks! C..H..I..P..M..U..N..K! We're the Chipmunks! Announcing your ride for today! When, your, conductors sick! Give us a call, we'll, announce them all! And, if, you, feel like a song! At GCT, you, can sing along! We're the Chipmunks! Calling out stops like never be-fore! We're the Chipmunks! Pelham, Astor, THE CLOSING DOORS! DOO, DOO, DOO DOO DOO DOO! DOO, DOO, DOO DOO DOO DOO!"
Yeeeeeee-ha!
That has happened on the Q-60 talking bus (5502, not 01). The driver simply muted it and all we got were the visual displays (which are misleading, since it shows the next stop to be announced and not the next stop, at 67th ave it would display 71/continental for the next 3 stops, and just before arriving there it is supposed to announce it).
Still not as cool as what happened on LIRR 5013 a while back, kept announcing "Friday, Monday, Saturday" before every automated announcement (in place of the ding). ie: "Friday, Monday, Saturday, this station is Mineola. This is the train to..." or "Friday, Monday, Saturday, this is the train to Jamaica. The next station..." This didn't affect manual announcements.
What causes that awful click-clacking at 77th near the south end of the northbound platform? I heard it as every train came in when I was just there and it is LOUD!
Big gap in a rail joint???
I don't know. The noise starts when the train is about 2/3rds of the way between 68th and 77th.
Is there a HBLR trackmap floating around yet? Also, when is the Newark subway getting its new rolling stock and when will it be extended? I saw that they have the equipment out there, but the loop at Franklin Avenue is still there. There IS track beyond it, but it isn't connected to the main line. Also, Franklin has been converted to an island platform. I will MISS the PCCs, man!
Another stop is being converted to island platform, the first non-underground stop IIRC... Did you also notice that they're half closing some underground stations? It's for platform upgrading, the LRVs require a slightly raised platform. Did you get to board at Newark from a track other than track one? Last I went they let us cross tracks one and two to get to track three.
Man, I'm gonna miss the sit-down railfan window for this line...
Orange Street has a new, not yet opened island platform and temporary side platforms for the PCCs.
Haven't done any weekday railfanning in quite a while, so I did some today. Took an F from 179st to 34th. Had an aggressive T/O and enjoyed the ride (flying past stations and stopping short).
Then at 34th I got a B. Actually this R68 was quite fast. Sped through the dash and came to short stop at W4th.
The ride across the bridge was pretty fast too. Actually I really don't think the Manny B is that slow, it just SEEMS slow. When trains pass by in the other direction they are a blur.
Stayed on that B till 36th. 4th ave express was fast. And this was on a "hippo". This was an R68 (Westinghouse).
Took another B for a ride to 34th. Pretty fast once again.
After a stop at Macy's it was back on the IND, this time a D to 125th. The CPW stretch seemed a decent pace but it really wasn't impressive. Going downtown from 125th an R44 A train, which actually seeme a bit slower than the uptown R68 D. Both A and D trains are jam packed. The downtown A (this was around 2pm) was crammed. Took it to Broadway-Nassau where I took a 4 uptown to Brooklyn bridge. I wanted to ride an R142A on the 6. I had to wait at least 20 minutes for one as rustbirds and R62's came by (the rust is getting real bad on those). Got a kick out of some stupid tourists. While waiting for the R142A I saw two tourists get into an empty 6 at the last stop (R62) and try to open the doors after they closed. Those people must've been deaf I heard from the other side "last stop no passengers".
Finally I get on the R142A 6. I took it uptown to Grand Central. Since this was my longest ride on an R142A i really got a better chance to check it out. It has a really nice ride, plus the acceleration is terrific! The automated announcements were very clear and functioned properly through the whole trip. The braking was quick and smooth. Also you can look out the window through the cab. You can see two bright green lights when the C/R gets all the doors closed.
The R142A's are good trains. Even though the LED dest. signs aren't colored they are much easier to read than on R44/46's. And the A/C was the best. All in all a good experience. After getting a bite at Grand CEntral I took the shuttle to Times Square for a 7 express ride back to Flushing. Actually where I ate (Pizza Hut/Roy Rogers) must be under the Metro-North tunnels, because the floor shook of trains constantly. Fast ride with an agressive T/O (really blew through the Steinway tubes, just as well it's an oil tube down there). The stretch from Woodside to Junction rocks. It was warm today. seeing all those sundresses really makes me long for a girlfriend.
A man after my own heart! But if we had girlfriends, we'd have to take them out and wouldn't have time to go riding! I'd love to find a female train buff! That would be cool! I can imaging us meeting on the Lex. The wind of an express train blowing her hair...
I'd better stop there. :)
Heh. I snagged one ... they're out there ...
I'd love to find a female train buff!
They do exist - I've met a few, and I know one right now, as a matter of fact...
Well railfanning can be quite romantic. Unfortunately most American women think cars are more romantic. Well that's why I look for mystical girls.
Cars are more romantic? That's what some women think? Ah, yes. Nothing could be more romantic than an airodynamically challanged machine, spewing out toxic fumes, melted rubber and a stench that could fell a buffalo. Not to mention the fact that it could be wrapped around a tree in ten seconds if you happen to answer your cell phone.
A New York to L.A. train, going through the farms of the midwest on a warm summer night, with the stars above you. That's romance ladies. I want to see a porshe match that.
And yes, you hardcore buffs out there, I know there is no direct service from NY to L.A. But, the changeover in Chicago is pretty romantic, too. :)
The matter of women's preference for cars goes back a long ways, don't know if it was the door to door convenience or the status of having one's own wheels. A cute poem appeared in a Book called Trolley Car Treasury I used to have, and was kind of my salve for seeing guys with girls in their cars when I had neither.
" A girl can be gay in a classy coupe', in a taxi can be jolly;
but the one worthwhile is the one who can smile...when you're taking her home on the trolley."
For train travel long distance having a seat together on a Superliner, etc can offer more romance than the confines of today's autos, and of course there are always sleeping cars if you want to pay the price and be alone.
If having a car or the right kind of one (or other status items) were a sole criteria for romance perhaps the girl isn't the one worthwhile?
I think The World According to Garp disproved that one pretty well. :)
-Hank
I'm guessing you don't own a motor vehicle and can't afford one.
I'm guessing you don't own a motor vehicle and can't afford one. why do I get a feeling that some of these people are so socially deproved.
Well railfanning can be quite romantic
The Transit Museum thinks so.
You mentioned that you were on a fast B train. That was because the B has R-68A's, which are a bit quicker than the average R-68.
All uptown rides are quicker than the downtown ones on CPW.
No it was a Westinghouse/Alsthom. Isn't that an R68? R68A's are made only by Kawasaki, right?
It probably was, CI is getting kinda sloppy with its R-68/a assignments. The other day I saw a mixed train on the N.
It was warm today. seeing all those sundresses really makes me long for a girlfriend.
You ought to wander down to Washington Square Park. Yikes! Some of the women there are about five square inches of cloth away from indecent exposure!
You ought to wander down to Fort Greene Park. Yikes! Some of the women there are about 1/2 square inch of cloth away from indecent exposure!
That's not far from W4th, right? Probably not many MYSTICAL girls there though.
[Washington Square Park]That's not far from W4th, right? Probably not many MYSTICAL girls there though.
Just a few minutes' walk from West 4th. As far as the mystical issue is concerned, if you mean what I think you mean, the answer is yes - the park is popular with NYU students.
That's not far from W4th, right? Probably not many MYSTICAL girls there though.
Here's kinda what I'm looking for INSERT URL HERE=
That's not far from W4th, right? Probably not many MYSTICAL girls there though.
Here's kinda what I'm looking for (just go to link, my brain is so broke I forgot how to post images )http://www.geocities.com/reality569/a15.jpg
You know something is wrong when you get lost in a subway station you've been to 200 times. This is your brain on loneliness.
Here's kinda what I'm looking for...
Well, if that's what you're looking for, I'd say you're about half a world away from finding it. Why don't you catch the next flight to Beijing and enlist in Comrade Mao's army? Lots of opportunities to meet your dream girl there, I suspect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just about anything goes in Washington Square Park. Last Sunday afternoon, the boy and I walked through there. When you enter from the southwest corner at West 4th and McDougal, there's still a steady stream of "Smoke, check it out"- even to us!! The large police van regularly parked on the south sidewalk opposite LaGuardia Place apparently does not deter this activity whatsoever. And the smell of maryjane is quite strong there.
My friend regularly plays guitar down there (as an artist, NOT a street performer), and he's made several girlfriends.
I'm not quite that daring- I was fixed up on a blind date with my wife.
I miss people watching at Washington Square Park. (Having gone to NYU, that was our "garden" on the campus.) So I know exactly what you mean, though at that time I didn't consider it indecent :)
--Mark
I have a hard time believing you were on two separate trains where the train operator stopped short of the marker.
Trains you were on kept stopping short, eh? There's one T/O floating about who will often overshoot, but I feel it's on purpose since he only does it at stations with a little extra platform (ie: Van Wyck Blvd, or most IND stations for that matter). Wonder if he ever picks the G or C...
Well what I meant was not short of the marker but rather going into the station full speed then full brake and stopping where it's supposed to.
How are the R-142 brakes different from older braking technologies (apart from the regenerative braking), and how are the R-44/46 different from SMEE before or after GOH.
And is the braking handle connected directly to an air valve or is it electric?
Most likely its brake-by-wire
This involves 3 different types of braking technologies:
SMEE: To be 100% precise, SMEE was a WABCO
designation, and modern GOH cars have either later WABCO variants
or equivalents made by New York Air Brake Co. They are all
trainline compatible and feature a straight air pipe in which the
pressure is proportional to brake call (0-85 psi) and a failsafe
emergency pipe called the Brake Pipe which must be maintained at
90+ psi or an emergency brake application will occur. R44 and R46
care were delivered with P-Wire brake (see below), but were
retrofitted with SMEE-compatible systems after GOH. Contracts
R62/A and 68/A are also SMEE-ish. To answer your question, in
SMEE, the brake valve directly controls the trainline air pipes
(although there is some electrical assistance to speed things along)
P-Wire: This was an attempt to modernize braking. The straight
air pipe was eliminated and replaced by an electrical loop,
the current in which was negatively proportional to braking call,
i.e. maximum current (1 Amp, IIRC) is release and no current
is full service. Although this provided some fail-safe (in the
event of a broken circuit the brakes would be at max), the traditional
pneumatic emergency feature of the brake pipe was retained. This
system was only used on the pre-GOH R44 and R46 (and the SI R44s)
and is now gone, although LIRR and MNRR M-series cars still use it.
The control handle operates both motors and brakes and is not
directly connected to the trainline pipes. In addition to the
(emergency) brake pipe, a reservoir pipe was carried trainline
to provide air in case of defective compressors.
New Tech: I'm not sure what the official term will be for the
latest generation of train braking. On the big R.R.s, the closest
thing is ECP (Electronically Controlled Pneumatic). The R110
and R142/A orders use a trainline network protocol to control
propulsion and braking. The master controller handle interfaces
to a computer which sends commands on this network. The commands
are received and acted upon by a trainline network decoder unit
in each car, which passes those commands along to the propulsion
control package. The emergency brake pipe is retained and
will cause a pneumatic emergency brake application if pressure
falls, however there is no reservoir pipe, at least not across
couplers. There is a reservoir pipe within the permanently-coupled
car sets.
So what about a break away between sets and a computer failure?
Will the seperate halfs dump or go on their merry way without reservior pipe between em?
Because it is brake-by-wire most likely there will a feature built in to each unit's CPU(s) that will dump if it loses pings from each other or pings from the main computer in the fist car. I wouldnt worry about a runaway since there are saftey features built into each car.
A computer failure will cause the number of pings to drop or to drop out all together thus leading to a BIE.
Most likely this is the case judging from my experience with computers. Then again, I dont know much about the internal workings of these new cars.
There is a brake pipe carried through the entire consist.
In the event of a mid-set pullapart, both halves would
go BIE and would have enough air to stop even with a
wide open reservoir pipe thanks to protection reservoirs.
According to Jon's page on the New England Transportation site, car #'s 3808 and 3810 have been added to revenue service, but I have not personally seen them yet. -Nick
What MUs are these that you refer to?
If you have Boston "T" info, can you tell me what has happened to the Green Line EL near the old Boston Garden?
The new Type-8s can MU (multiple unit) with themselves or specially-modifed Type-7s (of which there are only two now, #3622 and 3682). You can see more about the Type-8s on the New England Transit site.
The Green Line el near the old Boston Garden is still very much there. In about three years, the portion from the Haymarket portal to just west of the new Fleet Center will be torn down, with the Green Line passing below the Fleet Center in a new SuperStation. The Green Line will emerge and rise to the el before crossing the Charles River and heading north to Science Park and Lechmere. You can read about the SuperStation here.
Sorry if this has been asked before:
What range of numbers will the R-142 and R-142A use? R-143?
I know it's early, but can anyone speculate on the R-160 numbers? It seems to me it will start from 8301 to pick up where the R-143 leaves off.
For the R142n/A's, read the FAQ.
The R143's will be numbered 8101-8313. Remember it's at most a 212-car order. As for the R160's, you would need to know the number of cars in the order, and if there are any possible options. The R142A's have such an option where the numbers would overlap with the R26's (7750-7760 would overlap), which would mean that they would either have to be retired or renumbered. If, let's say, it was a 300-car order, you'd need yo find an unused block of numbers. Such a 300-car order would probably be numbered 1001-1300, since no cars currently have those numbers.
Since the R160s are replacing the R38, R40, and R42 fleet, they should be wearing those numbers (on newer plates, of course) when they arrive.
That has never happened. They would use a currently unused block of numbers. Otherwise they would have to scrap cars exclusively because of its number, which is not something smart to do.
7761-8000 and 8321-9999 would be available. Since they would replace the R-38 through R-42, it would likely be a 1000 car order. This would then be 8401-9400.
Before people start saying things, I'm just SPECULATING.
7761-8100 are going to be used for the opt. order for the R142's. . This Info is on the sit under fack and date of the R142's. This is why the R143's start with 8101.
Robert
I made a big Boo Boo. I somehow read the date wrong on the R142's, I thought that they were going up to 8100 or so. I don't know why the R143's are starting with 8101 and not with at least 8001. These number are going to be open anyway, then why is the TA not using them.
Ones more sorry for the mistack that I made.
Robert
Don't worry about that - but do look at this interesting little bit
of information - the R143 looks like the lead motors in the bunches are going to be ODD, not EVEN. First time I've ever seen this.
Example: R68A cars go B-A-C-D (i.e. 5002,5001,5003,5004). Looks like the R143 will go A-B-D-C (i.e. 8001,8002,8004,8003). Unless they change how they're ordered...
they already have 8000-8009 for the R110A.
wayne
Don't worry about that - but do look at this interesting little bit
of information - the R143 looks like the lead motors in the bunches are going to be ODD, not EVEN. First time I've ever seen this.
Example: R68A cars go B-A-C-D (i.e. 5002,5001,5003,5004). Looks like the R143 will go A-B-D-C (i.e. 8001,8002,8004,8003). Unless they change how they're ordered...
That's the way it should be. The first car number should go first. The R-44s and R-46s should have reversed odd-even when they were renumbered so it would start from 5201 and not 5202.
What R-68 car #s are used on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle? What car numbers are dead, if any? They should have made 2500 into 2925 so that it could be numbered 1-2-4-3 and not 0-1-3-2.
they already have 8000-8009 for the R110A.
That would have to be 8001-8010, wouldn't it? It's interesting that the low 8000s have always been used for experimentals. The BMT Green Hornet was 8000, the BMT Bluebirds were 8001-8005, the R-11s were 8010-8019 and now the R-110A with 8001-8010.
Franklin Avenue shuttle uses #2916 - #2924; these are not linked and include a spare or two.
You are right, I stand corrected with the R110A numbers, it's 8001-8010; they started using xx01 to start series numbers beginning with the R62 (Kawasaki) fleet, #1301 was the first one.
By "dead", you mean scrapped/wrecked or just inactive? There's a huge list of all scrapped/wrecked cars in the Car roster page, goes all the way back to Malbone Street I and the BU gate cars (726, 80,100, 728) which were wrecked there. I offer the following list:
Currently NYCT is not using the following series AT ALL
1000, 1100, 1200, 3100, 3200, 8400, 9800, 9900.
The following series are undergoing delivery:
6300, 6400, 7200, 7300, 8100
The following series have been contracted for but the cars haven't been built yet:
6500, 6600, 6700, 6800, 6900, 7000, 7100
7400, 7500, 7600, 8200, 8300.
The following are only PARTIALLY used: NOT COUNTING scrapped/wrecked
1300 (99 units of R62)
1600 (26 units of R62; 49 units of R62A)
2400 (75 units of R62A)
2900 (25 units of R68)
3000 (9 units of R110B)
3300 (51 units of R32)
4900 (50 units of R42)
5000 (99 units of R68A)
5200 (1 unit of R68A; 98 units of R44)
5400 (80 units of R44; 18 units of R46)
6200 (33 units of R46)
8000 (10 units of R110A)
8500 (30 units of R29)
9700 (70 units of R36WF)
hope this helps!
wayne
I was looking for which R-68 cars are inactive, not all cars. I pretty much have the car roster memorized at this point. And if not, I keep a pocket guide.
the only ones I had down as inactive were #2805-2807 and #5150-5151 due to crash damage. The 2805-2807 are back in service; don't know about the 68A = perhaps Train Dude knows.
wayne
Franklin Avenue shuttle uses #2916 - #2924; these are not linked and include a spare or two.
You are right, I stand corrected with the R110A numbers, it's 8001-8010; they started using xx01 to start series numbers beginning with the R62 (Kawasaki) fleet, #1301 was the first one.
By "dead", you mean scrapped/wrecked or just inactive? There's a huge list of all scrapped/wrecked cars in the Car roster page, goes all the way back to Malbone Street I and the BU gate cars (726, 80,100, 728) which were wrecked there. I offer the following list:
Currently NYCT is not using the following series AT ALL
1000, 1100, 1200, 3100, 3200, 8400, 9800, 9900.
The following series are undergoing delivery:
6300, 6400, 7200, 7300, 8100
The following series have been contracted for but the cars haven't been built yet:
6500, 6600, 6700, 6800, 6900, 7000, 7100
7400, 7500, 7600, 8200, 8300.
The following are only PARTIALLY used: NOT COUNTING scrapped/wrecked
1300 (99 units of R62)
1600 (26 units of R62; 49 units of R62A)
2400 (75 units of R62A)
2900 (25 units of R68)
3000 (9 units of R110B)
3300 (51 units of R32)
4900 (50 units of R42)
5000 (99 units of R68A)
5200 (1 unit of R68A; 98 units of R44)
5400 (80 units of R44; 18 units of R46)
6200 (33 units of R46)
*********** I FORGOT THESE TWO! *******
7700 (50 units of R26)
7900 (60 units of R28)
********************************************
8000 (10 units of R110A)
8500 (30 units of R29)
9700 (70 units of R36WF)
hope this helps!
wayne
The R143's are "8101-2-3-8104","8105-6-7-8108","8109-10-11-8112", and so on, and so no, when dilivered.
The R142's are "6301-02-03-04-6305","6305-07-08-09-6310", and so on, and so on. The R142A's, R62 & R62A in all the same patten like this.
Robert
I knew that the IRT cars were consecutive but I thought that the BMT/IND cars were out of order for other reasons (like keeping the inner cars odd). I stand corrected.
wayne
There's no rule against renumeration - to wit. all the R44 and R46.
You're right; they wouldn't scrap,they'd renumber.
wayne
You're right; they wouldn't scrap,they'd renumber.
I don't think they would renumber a car that probably has less than a year left.
Like I said: They would use a completely unused set of numbers. It's not like there aren't any available.
The r10s were very heavy but had very good acceleration.
The R-10's also didn't conform to today's standard horsepower crap.
They kicked ass, it's a shame I only rode them once and barely remember it. It was a rush hour C coming home from the Museum of Natural History / Hayden Planetarium, usually my dad and I ended up on a slant K.
How much power do the TA's diesels have? I know that they aren't fast, but they seem to have more power than average cars. Can anyone here help me out?
Also, What about the R-127/134?
Most of the TA diesels have the 600HP GE diesel engine in them from what I've seen in specifications.
As far as I can tell the R-127/134 have the same trucks as the R-62 (visual observation). They also still have field shunt, giving them a tad more power than your average subway car.
Article in Local DC papers state that money is being raised for more extensions. The Orange Line will be extended along the Medium Strip of I66 to Centerville just South of Dullas Airport. The Airport line will be a entire new line maybe the brown or purple, plus other extensions. Plans for the Orange Extension to start in 2004-05
Do they plan to run the Dulles line with the Orange line on any trackage? If so, then they will need to look at a new Potomac crossing northwest of Rosslyn, or they'll run into track problems with the Blue/Orange/Name-your-color lines similar to some of the B Division bottlenecks in New York.
The Dullas line will branch off the ORANGE Line either from Falls Church or West Falls Church Station, that is the plan for now
Be prepared for bottleneck problems at Rosslyn then.
The NYPD's Transit Bureau recently began using a high-tech camera that detects heat and displays the heat-generated images on a screen. So far 14 homeless people have been detected and evicted. Police anticipate using it to find criminals hiding in the tunnel darkness, and as a tagger-catcher.
Daily News story
Thanks to SUBWAYSURF for posting it on The Other Side of the Tracks message board.
At last, now the homeless can be found before they get themselves killed or make other kinds of mischief.
NYPD's Air Division already has thermal scan cameras mounted on its helicopters. But the hand-held application is new indeed.
Why couldn't the MTA use these for graffiti intruders??
Why in hell would anyone want to go inside those tunnels anyway? They're rat infested to the core and they could get attacked or at the very least get germs that can get them very sick. Those who do go in there have got to be very strange people indeed.
Must be Republicans
I don't know about that. I saw one once that looked an awful lot like Mark Green, and another time I saw one that was a dead ringer for Hillary.
Hillary --- EEEEEEKKKK!!!!!!
Stranger than you? :-)
j/k
The new cameras appear to be smaller - suitable for hand use. The ones mounted on the choppers are bigger, heavier, and integrated into displays in the cockpit. I would guess that the chopper-mounted units are also more powerful, and tuned for longer-distance applications...
The hand held camera will also be used to find grafitti vandals and criminals attempting to escape the police by running into subway tunnels.
--Mark
hey marty you've met me, tell these people how strange i am, btw do you want them to use it?
As someone who has ridden the main line thousands of times passing the Belmont Park Branch Wye and who also has been to Belmont Park thousands of times, I never rode the LIRR to Belmont. I never thought there would be any interesting sights along the way since the whole branch is only about a half mile long. However I was wrong. Today while taking my 4 yr old son Arthur to the track I decided to take the train to give him a treat. (Even though its just a 25 minute drive down Hempstead Tnpk from East Meadow for me!) I ended up getting a treat myself. On the stretch between the Main Line & the track as it was passing the Queens Village Bus Garage I noticed parked at the garage were 2 old fishbowl buses in the original NYCTA green and an Old Style GMC bus in completely different colors (green & yellow) with two really odd looking things that look like turbo fans over the 2 rear windows. I assume they are are primitive air condiioners as the bus said air conditioned. I also assume the buses are part of the transit museum and are being stored there. The old style GM looked something like this: (This might have even been it)
Don't say it belongs on BusTalk as I never really go there, besides, I saw it from the train.
By the way, I wonder how the LIRR makes money on its Belmont Trains on weekdays. There are only 2 each way and the ones I were on were quite empty. I'm sure they're more crowded on weekends and standing room only on Belmont Stakes day.
Welcome back, Jeffrey, long time no see!
The bus you describe sounds exactly like #3100....it was the original air-conditioned demonstrator GM TDH5106 (serial TDH5106-919) which was built for Fifth Avenue Coach Company in August, 1956.
It did do some time at D.C. Transit down in Washington, and then back to New York. In the early 1960's, the a/c system was completely removed, so it had a conventional back, and ran around the Bronx for a few years. I have photos of it in the dark green/jade green MABSTOA colors at Coliseum Depot, and I also rode on it quite a few times when I lived in the Bronx.
Not sure of the date, but it was restored to its original apprance by NYCTA and placed into their historical fleet. The only difference now is that it says "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY" on the sides, whereas it originally said "FIFTH AVENUE COACH COMPANY" in the same paint scheme and colors when it was new.
The picture you added into your post IS the very same bus. Not sure about the details of the two GM New Looks though.
Thanks alot!!!
Do you know if 3100 is being stored at Queens Village? If it is then that's the bus I saw. The train goes right past it just before Belmont Pk Station.
Yup; 3100 lives at QV, along with 1959 GMC New Look #100, and Flxible New Looks 4727 & 5117 (1970 and '64 models, respectively), all of them green & silver. There are pictures of them on this site.
Is it me or do those busses look like PCCs?
Its funny Phil but I've always thought of it the opposite, that the PCC's look alot like old style GM's. I remember those buses well (along with the Macks) but was just a toddler when trolleys were discontinued in NYC. When I saw my first PCC I thought it looked like an old GM.
The design of the PCC was finalized in 1934 (there were several trolleys that looked almost like a PCC produced about this time). The first operator, Brooklyn & Queens Transit (BRT) got a PCC, #1001 in 1936. About 4,500 followed.
So, which came first, the chicken or the egg ?
Mr t__:^)
Interestingly, the first 'old looks' by Yellow Coach (Later GMC) ca. 1939 added standee windows, which were first seen on Clark's only PCC car in 1937. Later the GMC line adopted a narrower passenger window, also first seen on a St. Louis PCC order in 1942.
Good points Gerry.
While doing a trolley tour I love to walk folks over to the wheel turning machine & point out the "tire" on the wheel.
Mr t__:^)
What's really odd is that the Soviets built some streetcars (using TATRA components, as Chezkosovakia was under Soviet domination) that looked a lot like a GM "flatbottom" sitting on PCC trucks - complete with dual headlights. Some may still be around, especially in Moscow or St. Petersburg.
Belmont Park Branch doesn't make money. A conductor told me New York State owns Belmont so the train keeps running as a favor to the State.
New York State does not own Belmont. It, along with Aqueduct and Saratoga is owned by the New York Racing Association, a non-profit PRIVATE corporation. There is a board of directors comprised of its biggest shareholders.
You're right. NYRA is the owner. They receive their franchise to operate by NY State, which currently runs through 2007.
You're right. NYRA is the owner. They receive their franchise to operate by NY State, which currently runs through 2007.
Presumably the state still collects a share of the revenues, as its franchise fee, which means that it has a financial interest in the track and therefore would be willing to subsidize the cost of providing LIRR service.
The contract for final design of 6 passing sidings needed to improve service on the Pascack Valley line was awarded Wednesday. Guesstimate of opening of improved line is now LATE 2004. Transit says NIMBYs cost one year and lack of workers is causing additional delay. The workers are working on the Secaucus Transfer and other important projects.
Bergen Record article
Can NJT sue the NIMBYs for recovery of costs due to delays?
You don't have to reply - I already know the answer (sigh).
One might ask, why does it take so long to plop several second tracks along a mostly surface-running line, tracks which are only a train length long? And the answer would be, where would these second tracks go, they must be in geographically hospitable and accessible areas for easy construction. But they must not encroach on other property, and must be able to fit a bidirectional train schedule. As for the actual construction, that would take two years. Why so long? Look at the MTA's third track at Broad Channel. That was started in 1999, they're almost finished! The construction involved building one switch.
A lot of what was formerly the ROW along that line has been taken over by tractor trailer parking lots. Some of it has returned to wetlands, and I'm sure that you need loads of permits to disturb even a 2-foot-wide wetlands full of garbage.
The rehab of the Delair-to-Atlantic City line by Amtrak for the Gamblers' Express (now NJT AC line) took longer then the original survey, real estate aquisition, clearing, grading, and construction combined.
Do any subways in the USA or abroad play background music in the stations? Ala Muzak or something?
Hey I believe Muzak works. It helped me find my one and only girlfriend so far in a Nathan's 9 years ago. But she dumped me after 5 months (and no she wasn't mystical).
Highly recommend the Adult Contemporary format while waiting for a (N)ever, (R)arely, or (F)orever.
In Philadelphia there is music in at least one station. Cecil B. Moore station on the Broad Street Station serves Temple University, and the play WRTI 90.1 FM, Temple's public radio station over the PA there. They play classical in the daytime and jazz at night.
Of course, I prefer live music in the subways, which is practically nonexistent in Philadelphia. New York has good bands, and I really liked the bands in Boston's subways the one time I was there. There was a cool Peruvian band and a trumpet and electric guitar jazz duo that sounded amazingly good for just two instruments.
Mark
Unfortunately the music trend in the NYC Subway seems to be a lone performer with a karaoke (either for musical instrument or voice) track.
Since the performer usually has a microphone integrated into this arrangement, its difficult to tell who is making which contribution.
John.
At the Franconia-Springfield WMATA Station (southern end of the blue line), music is piped in.
Also on Wednesday at Grand Central, there was a singer at the stairs leading up from the 4/5/6 southbound, between the staircase and the walkway to the shuttle.
The stuff at Franc-Springd is just too elevatorish for me. The idea of putting FM repeaters in the tunnels has been floated ... I'd vastly prefer the idea of listening to my own radio to piped-in Muzak.
Luckily, Metro seems to attract scores of live musicians (of sorts). Friendship Heights, Foggy Bottom, and Farragut North during rush hour are all good places to look for homeless saxophonists.
C
Yeah I'm with the FM repeater thing, they could have several channels of music for people to listen to in their walkmans, plus a channel for subway information (re-routes, diversions,suspecsions,etc)
. It helped me find my one and only girlfriend so far in a Nathan's 9 years ago. But she dumped me after 5 months (and no she wasn't mystical).
Here we go again........
I sighted the new sign to designate W on an R32 R heading for 95th yesterday, 2nd car. It was a diamond W, I assume they have a circle one too, the top sign said Court Sq Queens, the middle said South Terminal, and the bottom said diamond W: Astoria/Broadway.
Sorry to disappoint you, but that < W > Astoria/Broadway sign has been there for years.
Transit will build a pocket track in Harrison that will enable them to double the number of Raritan Valley trains that will afford across-platform change to NYP bound trains.
Star-Ledger story by Joe Malinconico
Super-excellent.
So where are The RV passengers going to park their motorhomes, trailers, and campers at? (LOL)
MTA's website and numerous full-page ads in newspapers advise us that due to work in the 60th Street tunnel this weekend, the 'R' is running through 63rd Street and the 'N' is cut off between Queensborough Plaza and Times Square. There'll just be a shuttle between Astoria and the Plaza; passengers should use the '7' to and from Manhattan.
Yesterday I spotted a poster in the mezzanine at Court House Square that on Saturday, there will be NO service between Queensbourugh Plaza ad Times Square. There'll just be a shuttle between Shea and the Plaza; passengers should use the 'N' to and from Manhattan.
Now is that coordination or WHAT?!
I attempted to call the superintendents for both lines; neither person representing each line knew about the GO on the other. It was suggested that if you're coming from Flushing to change at 74th for the 'E', 'F' and 'R'. If you're coming from Astoria, take a bus to Queens Plaza for the 'E', 'F' and 'R'.
(When I mentioned to the person answering the 'N' phone that the 'R' was running through 63rd and as a result not stopping at Queens Plaza, she claimed not to be aware of this.)
I shudder to think how this is going to affect Queens Boulevard service from Jackson Heights on into Manhattan.
It doesn't seem like anyone in charge of planning GOs talks to each other.
For anyone planning to travel between Astoria and Manhattan tomorrow, a line from an old Country Time Lemonade commercial comes to mind: "Ee-yah can't get the-a from hee-a."
I saw posters for both side-by-side at Queensboro Plaza station yesterday. One or the other will be cancelled. Since the one for the 7 isn't even on the web site, and it's only for half a day, I assume it's an emergency repair and will occur no matter what.
If both are necessary, there possibly will be a shuttle bus to 36st for the R and Queens Plaza for the E.
BTW: Anyone else getting pissed off that express service from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt on weekends is now considered a disruption? They put up posters for the express E!
Whoops.
I didn't even see any mention of the 7 GO on the TA's web page.
I think it's fairly obvious that the entire system of coming up with GOs and publicizing them needs to be totally revamped. It simply doesn't work.
At the very least, free transfers should be allowed between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza -- even if that means allowing the entire world to enter free at those stations.
NYCT just updated their subway service notice page for this weekend, and it says that there are no diversions for the 7.
So even the shuttle bus between Main and Shea isn't happening?
Well then I may not take LIRR after all.
Hmm, did not see that on the MTA website. I really find it hard to believe they would do that at the same time. There is a major G.O. this weekend for the 7, shuttle buses replace trains between Shea and Main street.
If indeed there is no service in either 42nd or 60th street tubes then chaos and confusion will result. especially for N riders, who will have to take the N shuttle to QBP then a 7 back to 74th and E, F, or R to Manhattan. With that kind of mess most people will opt for the bus.
Well I'll be taking LIRR both ways into the city tomorrow because of the 7 G.O.
Going it'll be from Great Neck to Penn.
Going back I'll take an E to Jamaica and get an Oyster Bay train there.
Communication in the TA is seriously deficient! I just finished a business course for the semester entitled:Supervision:Concepts and Practices.The topic of communication was discussed.When I told my classmates about the problems in the TA regarding this medium, they just shook their heads in disbelief.
Does anyone know how high SEPTA's catenaries are on the R6 line to Norristown (or the NEC, if same specs?). I'm working on an ADA access proposal for the line, and I need to know how high the catenary wire is over the tracks. Thanks in advance for your help...
What is the origin of the "Slotting" relay nomenclature. I can't find a reason for using that name in any of my books. Does it go back somehow to the bars and tappets used in mechanincal interlocking plants?
Dave
Oooh, let the signal geek answer this one: The term comes
from semaphore signals. Back in the days of hand-operated
semaphores (pipeline connections), the slot was used to
prevent the semaphore blade from assuming the clear position
when the track relay was down even when the tower's controlling
lever was set to clear the signal. In modern relay-based
signaling, the HYR (Home Slotting Relay) serves a similar function:
it checks that all of the track circuits within a home signal's
control line are clear before allowing the Home Relay to pick up
and display a clear signal.
Cool. There's always an inner logic to this stuff.
I always wondered if the Y in HY was for 'yellow' or HY was for 'High' since H picking with R & COS without HY would allow a call-on or 'Low' aspect. But I digress.
For a call-on, HR [TA signal nomenclature omits the "R" for relay,
contrary to just about everyone else in the country] is not energized.
The only place I know of in which HY relays are used is in NX
all-relay interlockings, which may be where you've seen it? (maybe
Bernie's NXSYS drawings?)
Yup, you're right. I checked last night. CO does an "end-around" H, but not R.
I'd forgotten that as I've been blurring H and R together in my HO scale plants, because relays are expensive, and because nobody dies when my Athearn diesels plunge 500 scale feet to the floor! I don't really need an R since I'm using rotary switch "levers."
But again, I digress,
Thanks again
What do you mean by an "R" relay?
'R' relay takes the place of a Reverse lever band in a conventional interlocking. It picks when appropriate route initiation, selection, and exit relays are all up in an NX plant. R must be picked for a call-on.
Since my HO plants are simplified, with no approach locking or call-ons, H, HY, and R all have about the same conditions, so their functions blur together in my brain.
To answer your question from before, yes, about 45% of what I know about this stuff came from learning how to code interlockings in NXSYS.
NXSYS is without par as a tool for learning about signalling practice. I use it as a tool for checking my paper circuits.
Oh, the non-vital Route Relay! Also known as the HSR or
the GZR.
One thing to keep in mind: TA signals has a peculiar way of
designing and naming things which is generally different from
standard AAR practice, even if the end result is about the same.
E.g. under TA practice you never use the "R" in relay, so on a dwg
a contact break says 11H or 1415T, not 11HR or 1415TR.
The BMT and IRT divisions use extremely old nomenclature (like
"S" for the distant relay). NX plants were more common on NYCT
than the US&S equivalent UR. Each uses slightly different
circuit designs and nomenclature, especially in the non-vital
route relays.
NXSYS is a pretty good tool. It doesn't deal too well with
real-world issues such as contact transfer time, slow drop-away
coils, coded track circuits, etc.
You should visit us in the signal department at Branford Trolley
Museum to see how this stuff works out in U gauge [U, or Unity gauge,
as opposed to HO, is 12 inches to the foot]
As far as I know, since 'R' appears in vital circuits, such as the control line for 'H', it must be a vital relay. The selectors themselves, the NX 'tendrils', are non-vital.
Contact timing issues in NXSYS can be dealt with sucessfully by defining the relays in a specific order, relative to the action of the algorhythm. This works in most cases, but there have been lotsa times where I've wanted to add a 'logical free-wheel diode' to add a delay-on-release.
I have been meaning to come up to Branford again, the first time I stopped by was mid-week, and not a lot was going on.
I detect a general bias against GRS, or maybe its just pro US&S in the "signalling community" (whatever that means). Is there a reason for this?
Mea culpa. I decided to dig out some TA NX drawings and you
are right, the R relay is vital, because it appears in the
middle, as opposed to the ends, of the circuit for vital
relays such as HR. It also provides the equivalent of electro-
mechanical cross locking with switches, but that part is non-vital,
at least in the TA's implementation.
As far as GRS vs USS, it is really a matter of opinion. USS
has been a lot more progressive in recent years, and their
stuff is a bit more maintainer-friendly, but the GRS equipment
is more substantially constructed. NYCT is one of the rare railways,
because of bidding requirements, where equipment is all mixed up.
On most roads, they picked one vendor or the other 75 years ago
and that's what they stick with.
Try Branford on a Saturday or Sunday, especially with advance
notice, and you'll be shown around.
I've been following this with fascination ever since this thread started but have only the vaguest understanding of it all (NXSYS on my computer also) ... does Branford actually have real interlocking? Wowsers, I'm impressed. I can see maintaining the vintage signals as part of the overall "show" but did you guys really go to all the trouble of full interlocking? If so, is it a vintage mechanical system as was found years ago with pneumatics or is it a modern relay-based system? Trip cocks deployed?
Sorry for the low tech question here but you do have me a good bit curious about the extent of the signal dept operations there now.
Selkirk- I think 'trip cocks' at a museum would be a 'trip hazard'
Imagine the sign: "Warning, stop may lower onto foot!" :-)
[to digress ((AGAIN)); the signal would not show green, until your foot was removed and the stop fully laid down]
Jeff H- I'll email the linked address from the title line when I'm thing of visiting the museum again. It would be great to see this stuff actually implemented 1:1 (or U as you say.)
Dave
Heh. Just trying to scope out how "nuts" you guys are. But why not? You could probably trap a few rabbits that way too. MMmmmmm. Yummy Teletubby Hassenpfeffer now on sale in the cafe ... :)
We have block signals and some of them protect hand-throw
switches. We also have one power-operated switch which is
thrown by a pushbutton. Years ago it used to be activated
by an overhead contactor, trolley system style, but that fell
into disrepair and was not put back, plus things got a little
tricky in that there is such a wide variance in first point
current draw.
We have plans, when space allows, to have a display interlocking,
but we aren't going to have power-operated switches that can
be thrown from a tower because of the liability of injury if
someone is standing in the switch at the time.
Our museum being a trolley museum, our operating (as opposed to
display) signaling is trolley or interurban style, not high
iron or rapid transit.
Was just curious since the relay configuration discussion seemed to suggest that you guys already had working interlockings or were thinking about it. That's some serious esoteric stuff to be playing with, especially the 25 Hz track circuits part of it all ... but my main curiosity comes from an eventuality that if I do enough work there at some point in the future and manage to earn my handles, am I going to be faced with a homeball around the corner that's going to be a nasty surprise. :)
We have orphans! To which branch of the Family Tree do they go?
Well who wants them? Will they fit in? Will all concerned get along?
They mustn't be treated like unwanted step-children, as if they were
burdensome. They must fit, belong and be active members of the family!
So who are the R/110As and R/110Bs related to more closely?
The R110Bs are between the 75fts. and the R/143s. System wise, are they c;loser to the R/143s? Could the most cost effective Specialized GOH bring they to the R/68s or the R/143s.
The Current ROW conditions give the best advantages towards the R/143s. The R110Bs should be able to negotiate the turns on the 14thSt/Canarsie line. On a one-for-one swap of cars, a consist would gain only seven feet, I beleive a 487 ft. consist could fit on any platform on the Eastern BMT.
So sportsfans should they be upgraded or down graded.
Then we have the R110As...
avid
A moment of silence about 6 PM on May 12, l955. The last 3rd Ave el train headed north out of Chatham Square for the Bronx. This was the end of the Manhattan el empire.
I wasn't on the last train but just as well as I had a local-express so got to ride thru Manhattan on the express track northbound.
My first and only ride on the 3rd Ave el but even at age 12 I wished I'd been on it sooner therefore much more often. [Why not? the line was not convenien to our neighborhood]
Some people may think otherwise but it was a great experience,actually seeing the city center by train above the streets, not underground, and such nostalgic trains and stations.
Because of some good advice, on my first day in Paris last month I headed for a railroaders' bookstore operated by La Vie du Rail in a courtyard at 11 rue de Milan (near Liege metro station and Gare St.-Lazare). It's a railfan's paradise of books! I purchased the huge new book by Jean Tricoire, "Un siecle de Metro en 14 lignes," for 265 FF, minus a generous discount. A superb history of the Paris Metro, equipment, and 14 routes. Also see http://www.chez.com/jefx Also, laviedurail has a website. La Vie du Rail is a weekly magazine for railroaders (cheminots) who enjoy their occupation.
Fill me in guys. I haven't heard a thing in two months concerning the work that is scheduled to be done on refurbishing Stillwell Avenue. Is that still a go or has that been sidetracked like other jobs have? I was really enthused about the possibility of seeing a neat and modern Stillwell station on one of my future trips to the City, but now who knows? Are they going through with it? As for the Manny B's southside re-opening, I take it July 1 is still the target date. Or is that also up for grabs now? The only thing I do know is that the Sea Beach is not going over the bridge when the reconfiguration takes place, so I have lost my enthusiasm for the Manny B scheme.
July 1 is still the target for the bridge swap, the MTA is rushing to get ready as almost every day a diesel train runs up H2 to some part of the bridge, they do some work, then the train comes back down. The workers will sometimes cross the roadway and hitch a ride back on a passenger train. The rails for H2 are shiny at Canal st.
As for the Sea Beach's continued banishment to the tunnel, there will most assuredly be G.O.s sending them over the bridge, after all Rector st. still needs station rehab.
Stillwell reconstruction: The D platform is a mess, construction lighting in place. Slowly but surely...
When I tried to take a D back to Manhattan from Coney Island on March 31, I waited with others for close to 30 minutes before being told there was a power failure on the D tracks. A motorman told me that was par for the course and that these things were happening more frequently. Why only on the D tracks, though? It would seem that power failure at Stillwell Station would impact all the lines using that station as its terminal.
you jinxed it
That's what I get for trying to ride the D in the first place. All I wanted to do was do a little slumming and the D wouldn't even let me do that.
By the way did you ever order your Sea Beach License plates?
Sea Beach license plates? Not yet. The end of the summer for sure.
With only the experience of watching them wrap up long term GOs to go on, I would be willing to bet that there will be supplement schedules running on a pile of lines up until about 0500 Monday 2 July. That day and the next will be Transit Hell, while everyone gets their act together and finds new ways to get to work. Come Wednesday, no one will have a clue how to find their way to all the various events. Thursday morning will probably be much more relaxed. Happily, I'll be in School Car that week, and not on the road.
I'll be right in the middle of road posting. I hope I get the D before the switch. I wonder if the person with the last North side job will be taking students. Or the first W.
The contracts are already let for the Stillwell rehab, it will involve replacing the steel encased concrete bents with plate girders a la a typical El, "F" service will be cut back to Avenue X, "D" service cut back to Brighton Beach, "N" service to 86th Street and "B" will be cut back to Bay 50th for a short time, then let back to 7 and 8 track at Stillwell. Unsure, but we believe the "B"/"W" will be the sole line to service Stillwell.
Are they going to attempt to connect all tracks at both ends? It would be great if any train could arrive or depart from any track. Think of the possibilities: Right now, Stillwell (operationally) is regarded as four separate terminals. With 100% flexibility, trains could be managed in a more efficient manner.
The F would not be counted in this possible new manner of operating.
Instead of thinking: two Ds, one B, and one N are in the station.
they could think: four trains are in the station.
Once trains enter the stillwell area, their origin route should be irrelevent. Think of all routes as simply arrivals and departures. If there is a defecit in arrivals from one line, it will not affect the departures for that line since trains will still be arriving from other lines.
If trains arrive in this order: D (train #1),B(#2),D(#3),N(#4),B(#5)
and departures must be made in this order: B,D,N,D,B
Under the current system they would depart in this order: B(#2 late),D(#1),N(#4 late),D(#3),B(#5).
Under the ideal system they would depart in this order: B(#1),D(#2),N(#3),D(#4),B(#5). Nobody is late.
Now try to get those in charge to see that. They have trouble seeing the forest because of all the trees.
Excellent idea.
I am not sure if tracks 7 and 8 will be connected into tracks 5 and 6 (B and F lines).
In addition, track 2 doesn't connect into track 3 at the south end.
If there's room, the subtalk pie in the sky solution would be to build the terminal in a layout similar to many yards where the leads fan out from the lines on both ends and trains can be switched to any platform from the three routes in (and perhaps yard leads as well) ... but I'm sure the design is already frozen, anyone seen the track maps for the proposed replacement?
And that will only be a shuttle on weekends.
Also, I wonder why they are ditching solid concrete structure for open steel. That's like going backwards (solid concrete was the newer style, like the Smith St. line.). The open steel strctures with the old wood or flimsy fiberglass catwalks can be scary to walk on.
I think there was a water seepage problem in the concrete encased steelwork. Another reason may be the proximity to corrosive sea air, but that wouldn't explain the Rockaway Line's concrete encased steelwork.
BTW, the IND viaduct is undergoing rehab work. You can see the 1930 circa steelwork exposed at several bents between Smith Street and 2nd Avenue along the elevated ROW.
I think the Sea Beach will find its way back to the Manny B once both sides are open, whenever that happens.
:-) Andrew
That's fine Mr. K. I only have to wait 14 years for that. I will be old by then--that is, if I'm still around. Hell, put the train on the bridge now so I can enjoy it. Well better late than never, and, besides, I plan on being around for a spell anyway.
you are old!!!!!!!
Chronologically, yes, that is compared to most of the others on this site. Remember, though, age is also a state of mind. To wit:
Fairytales can come true,
it can happen to you
when you're young at heart.
Old Frank knew what he was talking about because I feel I'm young at heart----at least I'm trying to convince myself of that anyway. But hell, where did all those years go and why did they go by so fast.
The piece-by-piece importation of Seattle to Chicago continues.
Boeing announced made it official yesterday that Chicago will be their new home. They'll be moving into 100 North Riverside, a very nice office tower designed by Perkins & Will, a firm I used to work for (same firm that designed the new International Terminal at O'Hare). The building is unique because part of it is literally suspended over the tracks that lead into Union Station. Hence, that big truss on the roof that's visible on the publicity photo that Boeing has released to the media:
Maybe we can arrange for Denver and Dallas to have Starbucks and Microsoft, respectively, as consolation prizes.
Congrats to Boeing for having the good taste to pick a good building in an excellent city. Welcome home, Boeing!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bah! Boeing should be ashamed of itself for selling out the city they have called home for oh these many years. Boeing was in Seatle long before it became popular, but I guess that loyalty and pride don't mean much to them. Nothing like moving to a city that is just packed full of industrial corporations to make yourself feel insignificant. Chicago should stop stealing other city's majour corporations and stick with packing meat.
Hey mikle - you see my message to you down below a few posts?
Geez, reply already! :)
Which message was that? The ACELA one? I agree w/ you.
No no, the one about comming down to Wesleyan and tormenting, er, I mean visiting you. I've got my bike up here now, so Middletown is like 10 minutes from me (20 if I do the limit ;)
Well there is a Simpson's Marathon on Sunday from 12 noon to 2AM. You might be interested in that. I won't be able to start attending until about 3 or 4 due to a softball game. Unless you can play softball and wouldn't mind being a ringer.
Heh. I suck at baseball / softball :)
Anyway, where about by you is the simposons marathon, and is there any *secure* parking by you? I don't want my bike to ride itself off (that really sucks) Hey - give me an email...
"Chicago should...stick with packing meat." Where have you been for the past forty years? The stock yards are just a memory, along with he Stock Yards "L" (mentioned to keep this on topic).
According to today's Wall Street Journal, Chicago's transit system was one of the factors that lead Boeing to chose it over Denver and Dallas. Granted, it probably was a minor factor, but the decision was close enough that it could have made a big difference.
By the way, at the risk of getting off-topic, ignore most of what you've heard regarding Boeing's reasons for moving out of Seattle. It wasn't a desire to separate the headquarters operations from the aerospace plants and therefore recognize the company's diverse activities. Nor was it a desire to be closer to New York and Washington DC (a pretty silly reason, for a company that surely has a fleet of corporate jets). What really motivated the move was Boeing's frustrations with Washington's high premiums for workers' compensation insurance. The company probably would have moved its manufacturing operations as well, if it weren't for the huge investment in facilities and the large labor force.
Are you certain about this? Illinois is said to have high Workers Comp premiums as well. Also, if you believe the buzz in the papers, the fact that Chicago has "Grand Opera" may have helped, since the president of boeing is an opera fan. Finally, Chicago is simply better situated in the middle of the country, making flights to either coast relatively shorter.
high worker's comp rates as a reason behind Boeing's move
Are you certain about this? Illinois is said to have high Workers Comp premiums as well.
I read it on an online news report, I think on cnbc.com. Washington's rates indeed are higher than Illinois', although the difference is not vast. What is interesting - and which may undercut my assertion, I'll admit - is that moving to Illinois probably will increase Boeing's overall tax burden, incentives or not. Illinois has both a corporate and a personal income tax, like most states, while Washington does not. Washington does have a gross-receipts business tax, but for a profitable corporation like Boeing the burden is less than that of an income tax.
Give them a LOT of credit for moving INTO a city, and not contributing to urban sprawl like Sears moving out of Chicago to Hoffman Estates.
Give them a LOT of credit for moving INTO a city, and not contributing to urban sprawl like Sears moving out of Chicago to Hoffman Estates.
That's very true. As I noted earlier, Chicago's well-developed transit system might have helped it win out over Dallas and Denver. Score one for transit.
I find Boeing snubbing Denver with their
- bloated DIA,
- lousy air quality
- crooked real estate developers
- property taxes funding freeway expansion
- typical western US exploitation mentality
to be quite pleasurable.
"[Denver]property taxes funding freeway expansion"
To be fair, Denver is also spending its taxes on the building of a decent transit system. A nucleus light rail line in and near downtown was extended to the suburbs (infamous Littleton, actually) and generates lots of park&ride ridership. There are concrete plans for at least two more light rail lines.
Dallas is doing the same, only even more so. They are in the midst of expanding their popular light rail system and extending commuter rail to tie together the downtowns of Dallas and Fort Worth. There has been considerable new urbanist development around the light rail stations.
Just because the Western cities don't have a strong and continuous history of transit like a Chicago or Boston or New York doesn't mean that many aren't starting down the road to more liveable and transit-oriented cities. If conservative Salt Lake City can build a light rail line, and like it enough to build extensions, then anyone can!
Who cares They Made Bad LRV's For Boston and San Fransisco.
Didn't Boeing subsidiary Vertol build good CTA cars as well ?
Well Boeing can make some mistakes and somtimes none.
Yes, Boeing Vertol built the 2400 series CTA cars in the early 70s. These cars run on the Green and Purple lines, and passengers on these lines should be able to see Boeings new headquarters from the train as they cross the Chicago River.
-- Ed Sachs
Looks to me like the 2400's have held up rather well over the years. Of course they're starting to show their age a little bit, but overall they seem to be in pretty good shape. I have no idea what their actual history or maintenance statistics are, however. They seem to be in much better shape than Boston's Boeing LRV's, at least.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I assume there are/will go though a GOH.
Do they lose their Boeing Builder plates in the process ?
I have no idea. I seem to recall they were given an overhaul by the Skokie Shops complex a few years ago, but I'm not sure if they still have their Boeing builder's plates or not. Since the 2400's only operate on the Green and Purple lines (two lines that I hardly ever ride), I don't get to ride them very often. But next time I do, I'll try to remember to check for the plates.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is GREAT NEWS! Boeing is moving to a REAL city instead of someplace in Texas.
PS: I don't think we should punish Microsoft and Starbucks that much. Although on second thought, moving the HQ to a sterile, suburban city might be just the punishment for which the DOJ is looking.
Hang on to your old maps, folks. I was just browsing in Barnes & Noble. Hagstrom has come out with their new 5 Borough Atlas, which is now "digitized." No longer included are the old hand-drawn maps. The differing line formats to designate the differing subway lines, which used to be printed in faded gray and superimposed on the yellow streets, are gone, replaced with a simple line of blue dots for all subway lines. It is more difficult to tell where different lines converge and diverge again. On the old map, you could tell where the 8th Avenue IND went in Brooklyn by following the line-pattern to Lefferts or the Rockaways, for example. In fact, there are scant references to line numbers and letters. There is a subway map included, which hasn't caught up to the 63rd St. Connector yet. However, they have updated to new upper Manhattan and Concourse routings. Stops are no longer represented by a simple circle; rather, a blue circle is printed, with an 'S', presumably meaning "Subway Stop." You don't know which train runs on the route, but you really didn't with the old map either, except you could follow the line using the line-pattern mentioned above. This was a holdover from when the IND, BMT, and IRT were separate - Hagstrom has been making this Atlas for decades. (Sadly, I gave away a Hagstrom 5 Borough Atlas from 1996, which was still rife with references to the 3 divisions.)
EDITORIAL:
I miss the hand-drawn versions. Maybe it's pure nostalgia, but it seems like more care was put into them. Now that the maps are computerized, I suspect less effort will be required, and therefore afforded, to keep the maps up-to-date.
Hagstrom probably saved some dough by firing some map-drawing talent, just like the MTA perhaps saves money with the new R-142 or with 75' cars vs. 60' cars. This is, after all, humankind, and, when you get right down to it, it's all about money. For example, to allude to a recent thread on this board: An 8-car train of 75 foot cars may carry more people by volume, but it takes longer for them to get on and off than it would with a 10-car train of 60 footers because there are fewer doors. Net-net, no time is saved, and commutes are longer. But the MTA saves some dough on car purchase and maintenance. The R-142 may have a vast array of "improvements," but I would rather have a conductor announce my stop than silence because the computer system is out of commission for whatever reason, which happens 50 percent of the time I ride these new trains. (Is it really such a burden for the guy to open the doors AND announce the stop? Please!) I understand the Redbirds are old and need replacing. It's sad that the fine mechanical simplicity of them has given way to a computer, which may or may not work very well on a given day. I used to picture a guy with greasy hands and overalls when I thought about the subway yards. Will that image be replaced with a Japanese fellow with a laptop?
Which brings me to the Atlas...
Some fine care was put into the map drawings. Guys sitting with pen and ink, carefully writing out B-R-O-A-D-W-A-Y, etc., have been replaced by keyboard jockeys. (Okay, I realize that the original drawings had been made long ago, and the company merely made alterations to that master as needed, but the maps were still carefully hand-drawn at one time.) Like I said, I understand progress, and I do embrace much of it, but sometimes progress can be sad, and not just because we are set-in-our-ways, or some other simple-minded "because-it's-old-it's-better" philosophy. It has to do with the human touch.
Here's an example. Take personal conveyance. In the centuries leading up to the last one, great care was put into the building of horse-carriages by skilled craftsman. Then, in the early 1900's along came the automobile, and Henry Ford devised the assembly line concept. Machines soon replaced these artisans. By the 1970's and 1980's you had robots doing some of the work. By now, there are very few human beings in car factories, and absolutely none of themselves goes into the finished product. It's one thing to design a car in your head and on paper, and quite another to actually use your own hands to put it together day-in and day-out! I'll put it to you that this could an underlying philosophical reason for the failure of these new R-142s systems. ("It's not my subway car. I just work here." Type type type)
To Hagstrom, one of the last holdouts from a bygone era, I say (as I sit here, myself spewing forth my own drivel into this new-fangled world-wide-web, which I very much enjoy indeed), "Congratulations. Welcome to the 21st Century."
I miss the old lines-to-represent subway divisions (even if those have been out of date for 34 years), but overall I think the Hagstrom atlas is very nice. I see your point about hand crafstmanship, but in fact I think the new format is beautiful, while I always kind of felt the old format was a little awkward. I look forward to seeing the Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, and other editions come out. (They already put out Bergen-Passaic-Rockland.)
:) Andrew
In theory the computer maps should be better, since there are some wonderful tools available for computer cartography, but that's only in theory. Remember that some human makes the decision on what the finished product is going to look like.
Most of the 5th floor of Hagstrom's old Broadway building was given over to draftsmen. Some of the maps were enormous cut-and-paste affairs as revison followed revision. The extent of automation decades ago involved the indexes--you know:
"Vesey Street......... 6 A5"
These were typed on a Varityper on individual cards with sprockets. Then all the cards were hand sorted and placed on a frame which automatically spread them out so they could be photographed.
As to the hand-lettering B-R-O-A-D-W-A-Y, this was usually done using Leroy lettering, which was a template kind of thing which guided the pen more easily than could be done by hand.
What I particularly miss about the old Hagstrom maps was old Mr. Hagstrom, who liked the subways and the individual divisions, and was a big force in keeping the traditional ways going.
What I particularly miss about the old Hagstrom maps was old Mr. Hagstrom, who liked the subways and the individual divisions, and was a big force in keeping the traditional ways going.
Sic transit gloria mundi ...
its a good atlas, the best thing about it is that the lines are much crisper and its easier to tell what street os where and the starting address blocks.
The same problem has been seen w/ the DeLorme state topo maps. The older versions were traced from arial images and it took quite a long time to complete a map with several being released each year. Now they have switched to computer drawn maps. The up side is that they were able to shoot off every state, the bad part is that all the detail lines are quite angular and things become a problem when trying to accurately draw freeway interchanges and the like. Also railroads have really gotten the shaft. On the older maps things like yards, tunnels and multi-track sections were all plainly visable. On the new maps the RR's are just a singular, angular black hashed line. Fortunitly any map that was completed in the non-digital era will continued to be printed in the old style.
Well look on the bright side, the'll always be USGS maps.
Atlases gear to car drivers, not mass transit riders and are more or less useless to someone without a car.
Besides, you can decent maps now on the internet for free instead of paying $15 or more for an atlas. And for those who do drive, directions.
Internet maps suck, they aren't portable, you can't outline w/ rail lines w/ hi-lite marker according to the owner in 1955 and they are about as detailed as a globe. BTW you can forget about topo lines.
I much prefer old, hand-drawn maps to new computer-generated ones.
Computer-generated maps are just a view of a database. One of the principles of a database is "Everything is categorized; if something is not categorized, it doesn't go in the database."
One of the things that's really neat about old maps is that the illustrator can put in all sorts of things that don't fit into any of the categories. You can't do that with the new, computer-generated maps.
I feel like history is being erased.
History is never erased, we move on. If we don't move on, it's not history.
Nostalgia (n):
Synonym for Bullshit
Well, I have the new Pocket Atlas. There are some things I like, and some things I don't.
I actually think the streets are clearer, and the railroads are great. The subway lines are pretty bad, now.
As far as these maps being just for drivers, UH UH! Being someone who has a lot of trouble seeing, I LOVE my Hagstrom. I can easily find any address, and it even shows the general shape of the blocks. Mine gets beat up in about six months due to overuse!
Even with new technology, Hagstrom still has the best quality street maps. I'm a HUGE map buff, too. Especially city maps. I've checked all the atlases including Rand McNaley, and that piece of dog crap that the New York Times is trying to pimp off in 7-Elevens. Believe me, you still can't beat Hagstrom. If anyone knows a better one, let me know. McNaley's pocket doesn't show subways at all, and the full size hasn't updated the subway lines to even INCLUDE THE 63RD STREET TUNNEL. IT STILL ENDS AT 57TH!!!
I should warn people that Pete's thread also includes nostalgia/bullshit (they're synonyms) about Redbirds vs. R-142s.
In my case, the announcements work 100% of the time when I rode those cars, which is much more often than they work in the old crap, with its horrible PAs and door monkeys who can't speak English.
Before you go out and bash mass production, note that there are a lot more cars now than there were carriages before Ford. Personally I'd rather have cheaper and more abundant things than have the "human touch" than have them built by factory monkeys.
Computers are more reliable. Of course when it comes to bullshit (nostalgia), that means nothing, everything has to be simple, and "old fashioned."
Of course you realize that the MTA's state of antiquation had one advantage: no computers = no Y2k problem!
We're beyond that now...
It seems that the rest of the world avoided the Y2K problem even though they had computers.
>>> It seems that the rest of the world avoided the Y2K problem even though they had computers <<<
And *BILLIONS* were spent world-wide just to avoid any Y2K problems because they had computers.
*BILLIONS* that went to waste.
I didn't spend a dime on any of those stupid assed Y2K computer debugger packages, despite the fact that my computer appeared to fit the profile of an affected computer. My school hired a guy ($200) to check their system out, and for two days before Christmas break 1999 the computer system was down. It generates report cards (and deficiency reports), schedules for teachers and students, absent and late passes, guidance appointments, and lists of absent / excused students (which prevent cutting), so the administration was not too happy about having to break out the old hand-written forms for such things. Since teachers handled the handwritten late and absent passes as they would the automatically generated ones (which enter into the record the moment one's ID card is scanned) they threw them out after recieving them, unaware that the old proceedure was to keep the form and return it to the General Office at the end of the day so it could be recorded, therefore for those two days it was as if any absences or latenesses never happened. If Y2K had taken down the system, disorder would have resulted. We (students) would have eventually realized that without the absent / late lists (which the computer tailors to each teacher, too hard to do by hand in the 4 minutes between homeroom and 2nd period) one could cut class quite easily and never get caught. Without ID card scanning one could give the name and student number of anyone else when caught doing something wrong and the other person would get in trouble (our old cards had only a picture, two bar codes, and the address of the school; they've changed that).
Of course who's to say the bug would have done any damage? My student number is 02-303, so I'm the class of 1902 instead of 2002. Maybe I simply would be marked as absent on January 4th, 1900, no big deal. I'd have a guidance appointment third period on April 13th, 1900, so what? Everyone would simply be instructed to ignore the 19 and the day of the week until it was fixed. I really don't see why so many people went nuts over the bug (maybe they saw that Simpsons episode and believed it?).
Although the "Redbirds" technically were simple compared to the R-142s. I think that the R-142s will probably be a much better car once the bugs are worked out and more efficient than the cars that they are replacing. The A/C units in the R-142s promise to be more reliable than the old. In the long run the R-142s will probably be easier to maintain than the "Redbirds" ever were.
When the "Redbirds" were placed into service TV sets had vacuum tubes and the picture was generally black and white and if one remembers what that was like it was a pain in the neck. One of the vacuum tubes would blow at the most inopportune moment and you had to replace it or you couldn't watch TV. Those that were smart always kept a few tubes on hand if the moment should arise. Now TV sets have no vacuum tubes to blow and the picture is in color. You hardly see any black and white TV sets in use today. Like the "Redbirds" they are dinosaurs.
BMTJeff
There were color TV sets in the 1960s, and there were also black and white TV sets that used transistors. The two are mutually exclusive.
There were other disadvantages to tubes: they gave off a lot of heat, had to warm up for the picture to come on and used up a lot more energy.
In the 1960s there weren't many color TV sets until the the end of that decade. True they were using transistors in black and white TV sets in the 1960s. Tubes didn't disappear entirely until the 1970s and color didn't take over black and white until the 1970s. My parents didn't get their first color TV set until late in 1972.
BMTJeff
I don't have first hand experience, but I think that color then was like HDTV now. It was readily available, but somewhat expensive and broadcasts were already done in color for the most popular shows like digital broadcasts today.
When color TV sets were first introduced they were very expensive and few people could afford to buy them. Even in the late 1960s and early 1970s it was a big thing to have owned a color television set. By 1980 color TV sets were so common it was no longer a novelty to have since by that time almost everyong had a color television set. Although HDTV sets are available there are few HDTV broadcasts and the sets themselves are very expensive. In a few years or so the price will come down to the point where they will cost only a little more than a conventional television set and there will be many more HDTV programs available. Even if you still have a regular TV set you'll still be able to buy a converter so you can receive HDTV broadcasts on your old set but without the same picture quality as an HDTV set. Although it was planned to end broadcasting regular TV signals by the end of 2006 that date is likely to be pushed back a number of years since HDTV set haven't caught on as fast as they originally expected.
BMTJeff
But like BMTJeff said, when a tube blew out you could replace it yourself. Try repairing you TV if the picture goes out now. Same thing with cars. An average guy could perform much of the maintenance and many of the repairs before computers began to take over much of what runs a car. Now you have to take the car to a "mechanic" for repairs because they are the only ones with the proper analytical equipment. I know you'll argue that people go to Jiffy Lube now because their busier living the American Dream and don't have time to do it themselves. I know I wouldn't begin to know how to repair my TV or my car, and it costs me money and time while I have to wait for the professionals to do it.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with progress, but can you refute that it used to be easier for people to take care of such posessions themselves? In fact, the R-142s, which I do not hate, contrary to what has been portrayed in this all-or-nothing thread of responses to my recent postings, may be easier to maintain in the long run, as long as the programming is working. Are all of the car-maintainers to become proficient in computer programming and diagnostics? I doubt it. Can you imagine how many museums might never acquire an R-142 in 50 years or so because they don't know how the systems work and wouldn't be able to run the thing? But then, of course, if you had it your way, there would be no more museums because "nostalgia=bullshit." Well, for the record, I enjoy "nostalgia," and its a big part of my life. This website is all about nostalgia. Which leads me to the question, what the hell are you doing on this board if you don't like nostalgia, Pigs, Pork, or Pig, or whatever you're calling yourself this month...(I thought Dave made us all submit one email address so we could be issued one-and-only-one handle and password some time ago.)
nostalgia n. A longing for things, persons, or situations that are not present.
(My American Heritage Dictionary does not say "bullshit.")
But like BMTJeff said, when a tube blew out you could replace it yourself. Try repairing you TV if the picture goes out now.
But how often do modern TVs break? A lot less often than before, if ever. And if they do break, one can often just afford another.
I know you'll argue that people go to Jiffy Lube now because their busier living the American Dream and don't have time to do it themselves.
I won't. I'll argue that it's not the average person's job to learn how to repair his own car. That's for what auto-repair shops were created. If you want to go into auto-repair you can learn the skills required. It was even more easier to repair horse carts because it only requires elementary wood shop skills.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with progress, but can you refute that it used to be easier for people to take care of such posessions themselves?
But was it easier to live with the posessions?
Are all of the car-maintainers to become proficient in computer programming and diagnostics? I doubt it.
The cars would break down less often. Those car maintainers who can't become proficient in those skills can find a job in another department. They will not need as many maintainers.
Can you imagine how many museums might never acquire an R-142 in 50 years or so because they don't know how the systems work and wouldn't be able to run the thing?
Why wouldn't they? If there were museums in 1920, then you might complain that they would never acquire electric rail equipment because they don't know how THOSE systems work.
And besides, in a museum, most of those systems would be unneccessary.
But then, of course, if you had it your way, there would be no more museums because "nostalgia=bullshit."
If I didn't want museums because they take in figurative bullshit, then I would be against sewage treatment plants too because they take in literal bullshit, wouldn't I?
Museums are good for keeping people like you occupied with the old cars, but without interfering with the operation of a real railroad.
Well, for the record, I enjoy "nostalgia," and its a big part of my life. This website is all about nostalgia.
It might be a part of the site, but it is not everything. The site includes many sections on the modern operation of the system, and of the system's history. Before you say that the latter is the same, it's not. History is the study of the past, Nostalgia is the desire to live in the past. This site allows me to know about the past without living in it in the present.
Which leads me to the question, what the hell are you doing on this board if you don't like nostalgia.
Where was I when you became the webmaster here? This website is about discussions of rail transit systems worldwide and all topics related to it. Nostalgia may be one part of it, but you are no more important a poster than anyone else (except for Dave Pirmann), including myself. You have no more right than anyone else to say what discussions on this board are right or wrong.
Pigs, Pork, or Pig, or whatever you're calling yourself this month...(I thought Dave made us all submit one email address so we could be issued one-and-only-one handle and password some time ago.)
Well, it was he who let me (and many others) to change their name. The system was to prevent anonymous name changes to avoid the consequences of being a jackass. I don't change my name so people can't match my new name with the same person.
Well yeah. All of Pigs' names have a pig motiff in them. They're unmistakeable, deliberately so. I dig.
:-) Andrew
Well, it is possible to have an appreciation for both the current operation of railroads, which I do, and their past history, which I do as well. And, "nostalgia" is not a desire to "live in the past," as I said before, but a "longing for" it, which is not the same thing. No matter how many times I try to explain that, I think this nuance may be lost on you.
I don't presume to take on the role of webmaster here, and, of course, this site deals with much more than nostalgia. Duh. If you want to have Dave Pirmann change your handle every so often and he's willing to do it, have a ball. I just don't feel the need to do it personally.
Furthermore, I think you will find that many of us who post here and call ourselves railfans have a strong affinity for the history of the subway and of railroading, which co-exists quite naturally with our interest in the present systems.
It seems as though you take a perverse pleasure in belittling those of us who feel this way. That's your right, but it's also mine to point that out.
Keystone Pete
I'm sure by the time the R-142s are ready for museums there will be people who will be able to maintain the systems on these cars.
Even though there are computers in the R-142 subway cars there are still going to be tasks that can be performed quite easily without much knowledge of computers. Even the computers are fairly easy to use nowadays.
Even though automobiles have become more complicated because of the computer systems at the same time they are easier to maintain and there are still a few items that one can take care of themselves with some knowledge and the right tools. A good example is checking the spark plugs. With the proper tools they are still easy enough to get to so one can pull a plug to clean it and adjust the gap and put it back into place. Years ago you not only did you have to check the plugs but you had to do others items as well such as adjusting the timing. Now you just have to check the timing once in a great while. Thanks to technology it is easier to keep an automobile engine in tune than it used to be.
BMTJeff
I picked up a copy of the brand new New York City 5 Borough Atlas and noticed the change. No longer can you differentiate between the IRT, BMT and IND subway lines. It just show that a subway line runs through the area. If I were to suggest a change I would make the IRT subway lines appear dotted on the map. The BMT subway lines would be a dashed line and the IND subways a solid line. Then it would be easy to tell the three divisions apart. The new map is going to take a litle time to get used to but I'll manage to adjust. Doing the map by computer I guess is a lot less expensive than doing it by hand and probably faster so that the maps will probably be updated more frequently.
BMTJeff
I'm not sure the MTA cares that the public understands the divisions. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons MTA went to a color-coded letter and number system was to move away from identifying IND, IRT and BMT to the public. It so happens that the IRT remains distinct on a map due its use of numbers. And people like me will always use the "divisions" because that's what we remember and how we think. Will the average person coming of age now think about it that way (Subfans excepted)? I think not.
You're probably correct in that statement. I don't think that most people will take the time to try to differentiate between the IRT, the BMT and the IND divisions even though it is easy enough to crack the code if you take the time to figure it out. I even know which lines are on the BMT Eastern Division and the ones that make up the Southern division. How many people will try to figure that out. Probably very few.
BMTJeff
What has happened is that Hagstrom has merged with the Alexandria Drafting Company of the DC area (as you can see inside the covers), and has taken on its style. Way back in '85 when I was in college in VA, I picked up the Baltimore, Washington, Richmond and Tidewater atlasses which used this exact print. I don't know if it was computerized back then, but it was obviously machine drawn/printed. ADC covered the Phila. area to southern VA, then moved into Atlanta and Raleigh. Now it has moved into NY by virtue of the merger with Hagstrom.
I was surprised last month when I first saw a Bergen Co. map in this style. I checked the NY maps but they were still the old style. I said, "Naw, that style will never come into NYC. The Hagstrom style is apart of NY Heritage. The cartograpers up here will never give up they're prints". But sure enough, when I was down at the simulator and stopped into the new Barnes & Noble for lunch, I finally saw the NYC maps. So it seems ADC is making good on its slogan "The Re-mapping of America".
I always liked the ADC style, because it is a balance between Hagstrom and Geographia, which makes the streets so big, they're wider than the blocks, and some other maps (such as the old Mobil or Rand McNally fold up maps) which show the streets as thin lines. ADC uses two line drawings, but they're still thinner than blocks.
I was looking forward to the reflection of the Manhattan Bridge changes. Hagstrom has been doubling up the BMT and IND lines ever since the 1986 switch. Whenever a route letter changes lines, they switch it's division line over as well, so from 1986-88 Broadway had both an IND and BMT line up to 57th St. When it switched over, up to the present, you had both BMT and IND lines on 6th Av. I was hoping all this would be fixed since all lines are going back to their original trunk routes to stay. Then, the BMT and IND would be separate systems again, except on Queens Blvd. (But then, the Q may have become so associated with 6th Av. that they would still move the IND line back to Broadway.) But now all that is irrevelant, as they are using only the one line.
It seemed silly for them to continue showing IND and BMT different anyway. They also showed 7th Av., Lex and Flushing different, and still had the 7th Av going to Dyre and only the Lex going to 241st. (So I guess they've just given up on keeping up with the changes).
They might as well have just put each line in it's official TA colors. Tauranac does stuff like that in his maps (Such as Manhattan, Block by Block, also available in B & N.) He also shows the busses, in their colors. I wish he would make both a street atlas and a foldup street and transit map.
Agreed...while the new digitized Hagstrom has striven to be about as accurate as the traditional Hagstrom, it's lost a good deal of the soul and the panache of the old map. I guarantee that's last on their list of priorites.
It must be that a digital version is easier to update than drawing in new corrections...
Fortunately I still have a near mint 5 Boro Atlas, the final traditional one.
Geographia, for years the Hydrox to Hagstrom's Oreo, still has a traditional NYC map.
BTW, if you want to do digital right, see Van Dam's 5 boro maps.
I saw historian Jack Eichenbaum today and he for one, celebrates the demise of the old Hagstrom, so to each his own...
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW, if you want to do digital right, see Van Dam's 5 boro maps.
I agree that the Van Dam atlas is really good. I only wish that their pages were bigger, instead of being small 6 in. X 6 in. squares. Such an enormous amount of detail presented on such a small page sometimes makes it a little difficult to conceptualize the overview.
It would seem that that company has reached a deal with Hagstrom, because I saw the little square atlas with a Hagstrom cover. Also, I saw "slick" borough-wide Van Dam maps of Queens and Brooklyn (which do not share the aforementioned "overview" problem inherent in the small atlas) being sold under the Hagstrom name.
Van Dam maps show beautiful detail, even showing representations of the stanchions of elevated parkways. They also show very large buildings in 3-D, which is nice, but will occasionally result in the tallest buildings obliterating small streets below. (For example; the Van Dam maps do not show the short segment of Washington St. between Vesey and Barclay because the WTC towers are in the way.)
The Van Dam maps have good points and bad points when it comes to showing subways.
The first bad point is that the lines as such are not shown; only the stations. However, on the good side, each station is marked with the line letter/number, and in the appropriate color. (PATH is shown similarly -- no "lines", just stations marked with PATH's "P" logo.) Regarding railroads, actual lines are shown for LIRR, MetroNorth, and freight lines, and the MTA's old "M" logo is used for stations.
It is unfortunate that Van Dam did not elect to show the subway lines using the same kind of printed line that they use for the railroads. Some of the places where many subway lines converge and where stations of different lines are close together (downtown Manhattan, downtown Brooklyn) wind up looking cluttered and more confusing than they need to be.
Unfortunately, a major subway error that last appeared in the 1998 Van Dam atlas (but was corrected in time for the 1999-2000 version) has re-appeared on the slick Queens map. The A/C stations that are supposed to be on Pitkin Ave. are shown on Liberty Ave. instead. (On the slick Brooklyn map, these stations are shown in their correct locations.)
Also, the 1998 map showed a chart labeled "Here's how New Yorkers refer to their system", which showed the IRT, BMT, and IND divisions, but had "Canarsie" as a seperate heading. The chart was changed in the 1999-2000 atlas so that "Canarsie" was under "BMT"; however, the Queens and Brooklyn slick maps carry the 1998 chart.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Fortunately I still have a near mint 5 Boro Atlas, the final traditional one.
Kevin, is that the one with the picture of downtown Manhattan with the helicopter in the shot on the front cover, dtd. 1998, I think? Let me know, 'cause I want to make sure mine is the "final" traditional one too.
I have the New York City 5 Borough Pocket Atlas, dated 1999, with a cover picture of Coney Island.
Yes, mine has the copter and that is the final Hagstrom atlas that is the work of human hand.
www.forgotten-ny.com
For all the Bushies out there who call themselves transit supporters, see the opinion piece in today's NY Times about the increase in wealth for the upper echelons of society has forced lower income people to have to commute farther to get to the jobs, clogging the roads for everyone. Shrub's energy policy and misguided tax-cut make the situation worse. (Keep in mind that this was on the op-ed page of the Times, and I present it as food for thought, not a political manifesto!)
Traffic and Tax Cuts. How income gaps lead to gridlock on the roads by Robert H. Frank, and economics professor at Cornell.
To quote:
Tax cuts would also put more pressure on already overcommitted government budgets, making it all but impossible to launch significant new urban transit programs in the next decade. And prospects for curtailing traffic congestion are further dimmed by the Bush administration's denial of any legitimate national interest in energy conservation. "The American way of life is a blessed one, and we have a bounty of resources in this country," said Ari Fleischer, the president's spokesman. "The American people's use of energy is a reflection of the strength of our economy, of the way of life that the American people have come to enjoy."
For all the Bushies out there who call themselves transit supporters, see the opinion piece in today's NY Times about the
increase in wealth for the upper echelons of society has forced lower income people to have to commute farther to get to the jobs, clogging the roads for everyone. Shrub's energy policy and misguided tax-cut make the situation worse. (Keep in mind that this was on the op-ed page of the Times, and I present it as food for thought, not a political manifesto!)
I read this op-ed piece as yet another example of confusing causes and effects. The Aspen situation (service workers unable to afford to live in town) may be real, but I simply don't see it as operating on anything more than a rather small scale. Longer driving commuting times have resulted largely from the geographic dispersion of houses and jobs - particularly the latter. These development patterns have been going on for decades, through both Republican and Democratic administrations. Connecting these patterns to the (supposed) increase in income inequality does not seem warranted by the evidence.
There are plenty of reasons to argue either for or against the Bush tax cuts. This author doesn't make any of them.
The author of that article makes a couple of classic mistakes. That he then applies them to traffic is a stretch worthy only of that 70's cartoon character PlasticMan.
First is associating cuts in the tax rate with decreases in collected tax revenue. Historically, the opposite has been true (JFK in the 60's, Reagan in the 80's) -- when tax rates go down, more income gets reported and total tax receipts increase.
The second is to bemoan the "income gap". The income gap argument is a cheap political sound byte. It increased under Nixon, under Carter, under Reagan, under Bush and under Clinton. It will increase under W. It would have increased under Gore. By bracketing groups of people into income ranges and making the assumption that nobody ever changes income range, it becomes almost a certainty that the lowest group will have the least gain in average income. That's because so many of the people in the lowest bracket have zero income and zero growth.
On the other hand, it's far more interesting to look at cohorts. For example, break the population down into 10 categories of income level as of 1990 (lowest 10%, next lowest,...,highest 10%). Then look at what happened to the same people 5 or 10 years later. This tends to be a much truer measure of whether or not opportunities are being provided. Unfortunately, since it requires a bit more work and doesn't always lead to the conclusions that politicians (of either party) are looking for, such studies rarely get done.
CG
That has got to be one of the stupidest things I have every read. To compare aspen when most of the homes owned by the rich sit unused 80% of the year to any real city is foolish. the only real affect that the "income gap" has of traffic is it means that the cars sitting in traffic are Lincoln's and kias and not mid priced cars big deal. there are many people who like living in suburbs, why? they enjoy having a back yard and a garden. There are other people who don't and live in the city. But as the population grows the suburbs and the commute will get further from the city. The increase in the divorce rate has far more to do with sprawl than any "income gap." As for cheep oil how do you propose we get around by steam train. high oil prices led to high prices for everything and effect poor people more than anyone else. as for the federal tax cuts first of all look at how much money is wasted on corporate welfare and the "war on drugs" a 5% flat tax should provide all the money the federal government needs. the federal government should have no role in transit funding it should be 100% local as should all road and highway funding. Is there a law the says if the feds cut taxes and funding for state and local programs that the states can't raise their taxes to make up the difference I don't think so. But unfortunately Americans are to stupid to know that their other political origination's other than the democrats and republicans as long as people in this country are stupid they deserve what they get.
Even as somebody who leans left, this article is completely bull. Most of people who clog up roads are wealthy types who move AWAY from the city and into the suburbs.
Most of the lower income people live in the residential communities near the city, such as Queens, where wealthy people are moving away from. This process is observed in Flushing, where many Korean families who have become wealthy move to Roslyn or East Hills while poorer immigrants move in.
Lower income people drive LESS. Alot of people use public transportation or if they do drive they share.
Most of the traffic I see here on Long Island, especially on the north shore are yuppie SUV driving types who drive alone.
The traffic here on the north shore is getting worse just about everyday. The wealthy families have 5 cars per household and increase traffic more than anyone else. The result is severe bottlenecks on Northern Blvd at every intersection in Nassau county. Anywhere between Little Neck and Greenvale is a parking lot on 25a on weekdays.
A bus ride that used to take a little over an hour a few years ago from Glen Cove to Flushing now takes 90 minutes. Schedules have allowed for additional travel time but it's not enough. The funny thing is the traffic is lighter in Queens than in Nassau.
But that's the result of suburban sprawl and the flow of wealth out of the city and into the suburbs.
I have enjoyed all the replies to your post and agree in whole or part with all. I will add in the matter of consumption of whatever "bounties" we have : it seems to be what people want whether I like it or not, and I don't like it. But that's the way it is and people will pay for convenience at any price.
They'll drive every few blocks in town when walking or bicycling would be the best thing for them; and use powered lawn mowers for relatively small yards...then pay to go to a fitness center and work out. But consumption is a way of life.
Well, after a long, sleepless night of pondering about the technology of NYC's subway cars, I came to a conclusion....
The R142 SUCKS!!!!!!
I've decided that the Redbirds simply are the better cars. And to further drive this point home, this whole post will be in red font! But, I won't stop there. Alot of the arguments my fellow comrades were using to defend my beloved Redbirds, could just as eaily be applied to real life as I have proven today.
I used a rock (a simple, primitive tool) to smash my computer to bits. It was just too complex. I went to a local antique store and took an abacus. I didn't pay for it of course since money is a complex, relatively new concept in comparison to the age of the world. When the store manager tried to confront me, I simply kneed him in the balls. Who needs all of the complexities of negotiations and civil communications when it's much more simple just to hit a guy in the pills?
With my new abacus in tow, I began roaming the streets of Houston, scoffing at the advanced technologies of cars, buses, water fountains and toilets. I just decided to do my business where I pleased. It's the old simple way of doing business, which what makes it so good, especially after eating three bean burritos and corn.
As I walked the streets, I became increasingly hot so I decided to strip off my clothes as our old, simple ancestors did. Since they were old and simple, they HAD to know what they were doing and it HAD to be the best way because old and simple are the way to go.
I noticed that even without my clothes, the heat bore down on me so that I developed a foul odor. At first I was going to take a dip in the local fountain by City Hall, but then I said, "Hey! In old, simple times, a man was measured by the scent of his BO. The stronger the scent the stronger the man!"
Well, I must say, I had the strength of one hundred men this afternoon. And believe me the girls did notice. They were so impressed they fainted! I became increasingly hungry so I went to an all you can eat buffet. The nutrition you can find in the bottom of a BFI dumpster is astounding! Scavenging as our old, simple ancestors did can lead to some excellent rewards. And the delicacy of crushed rat sprinkled with roach crumbs followed by a garbage juice chaser is pure heaven! And maggots, hmm hmmm, you can't slurp down just one!
After my delicious meal, it began to rain. I became increasingly cold so I needed some type of animal skin to cover my naked, sweaty body with. I found a stray dog luckily and was able to crush his skull with my trusty simple rock. But now came the task of skinning him. It would be a simple task, but I didn't have a knife on me. I walked into a local resturaunt and took what I needed. Amazingly, no one confronted me. Perhaps this new "Old and Simple" trend is catching on!
Well, after skinning mans's bst friend, I put his lovely and surely delicous remains in a burlap sack.
Well, here I am stark naked at the local library, dog on my back and dog in my sack. This is a wonderful way of living. I've already made some new friends. Homeless Joe, Boxcar Bob, Cardbord Carl, and Overpass Ira are wonderful people. If you can get used to the fragrant scent of feces and festering flesh, you'll love them! Ah, all of this is simple and easy! Our ancestors must've been living it up! And I have the whole Redbird Jihad to thank for this enlightenment. Thanks, and death to the R142!!!!!!!!
Psych! The Rustbirds still suck like a whore on the pre-Disney 42nd street.
But you know what? I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Soft Cherry, R20WHINE, and SALMONELLA did go out and try this lifestyle. I can say one thing, it'd be as lamed brained as some of their post.
Anyway, hope I didn't gross y'all out too much, just trying to bring a little humor to the board. And a message which I think you all should get.
Long live the R142!!!!!!!! Sink the Birds!!!!!!!!
You know, for someone who's never ridden a redbird or R-142, or even been to New York, you seem to have a pretty strong opinion.
You remind me of an "armchair anthropologist" - one who does all his research on other cultures and forms opinions on other cultures based on reading books and the reports of other anthropologists.
Quite different from "field anthropologists" who travel to different parts of the world and observe and interact with many primitive societies, often refered to by the armchairs as "savages".
Thing is, you are looking at the redbird/R-142 situation strictly from a logical standpoint (and so is the TA). Which is obviously in the best interest of everybody because the redbirds cannot last forever and many are quite worn out.
However, many people here, including myself, have certain emotional attatchments to them, having ridden them many times, such as you do with the RTS-04, having been on them several times.
And I tell you - the "blinking" lights - love em.
It's one of the simple pleasures of life to be on the #7 train departing from Times Square and seeing the looks on some people's faces when the lights go out for several seconds on the crossover!
That's definately what I will miss most!
the long island rail road does that now with the MU cars going into jamaca right ??
Unfortunately, while the NYCT has modified almost all of its cars to use 'inverter ballasts', the LIRR has not. Inverter ballasts take battery voltage and convert it to Hi Voltage AC to light the fluorescent tubes. Since the battery not effected by 3rd rail gaps, the lights do not blink on and off. This also eliminates the need for (costly to maintain) polarity reversers. On the LIRR, the main lights are fed by the motor-alternator (M-A). When going over 3rd rail gaps, the M-A, which derives its power from the 3rd rail, stops rotating. This causes the lights & HVAC to shut down. When the M-A is again turning at sufficient RPMs, the lights and the HVAC are placed back on line by a series of contactors - "most of the time". (Can I have an M-A reset, please?)
Polarity reversers were THAT big a deal? All it should have required was a cross-wired DPDT relay with latching ... or was there actually something esoteric to it all? There were even "step relays" with ratchets which would alternate the latch of the DPDT contacts ...
Polarity reversers were a DPDT relay with a timer. Perhaps not a hi-tech maintenance nightmare but you never noticed that the timer wasn't working until the car came it with every tube black at one end. Then you had to open up the 600 volt panel, look for parts, work with tools and a droplight - much to much for any self-respecting union-man. So they were neglected. And with all that, the lights would drop out over gaps. Besides, leave us not forget that with the polarity reverser, you also had the Ballast resistors, Main Light Relay, Auxilliary Light Relay, and the ever-famous Emergency Light Relay. Life is so much simpler now for the RCIs. 1 Dark light - change the tube. 2 dalk lights, change the ballast. Car is dark, put it on the hold sheet.
Heh. Yeah, I know ... but I hadta bust them just the same. Many of us come to subtalk for the technical stuff, not "if I were trainmaster, why I'd ..." But I was curious just the same.
Now if *I* were trainmeister, I would have used a standard Potter and Brumfield KXR relay and let the damned thing "chug a turn" on a ratchetwheel EACH time the 600 dropped out ... wouldn't have to worry much about pole reversal then since if the relay really sheet the bed, it'd be lights out ... but yeah, over time the same problem would occur since the wheels for the latch were phenolic and later nylon.
Then again, if I were subtalk TMO, I'd just have the car inspectors go in, drop the fixture plates and turn the bulbs around at the other terminal. Heh. After all, reality is what you dream it to be. :)
If I remember there was a polarity change switch for the cars with DC lights. When I'd OK a train for service I used to flip a few of them on any train to make the lights come on full strenth. I can't remember exactly what it looked like, believe it was on the panel in each cab. Or accessible by opening the panel. (Behind the M/M)
Changeover switch ... on the panel ... but what "Dude" was talking about was the results of relays that wouldn't toggle ... them puppies was inside the panel ... that place you wouldn't drop down and trust a broomhandle for ... heh.
Yup, that switch wa there but it was a back-up to the automatic polarity reverser. You obviously were a cut above the rest to actually throw thet switch. The collector cars based at Concourse yard have polarity reversers - that typically do not function. Parts are not available to repair them so we put a sign in the cab to throw the polarity reverser ONCE per night. Keep in mind that the same crew rides this train, night after night. Since it is 'their' train, you'd think they'd have a vested interest in keeping it up. However, rather than throwing the polarity reverser, they tore down the sign.
Sorry to jump in here - I should keep my butt out of other people's business, but I remember a time when "union" meant an interest in professionalism and "doing it right" in exchange for wages ... where the union made sure people actually did things properly and took the effort to show you how it was done properly in the best interests of everyone else in a "craft" ... bloody shame it is that such would be the reaction of professionals.
Sure gassing off "this sucks and that sucks" also came with it but back in the days we worked there, the mentality was "wing it or fling it" and "no brakes, no problem" ... you KNEW what to do and how to handle it knowing you'd be sentenced to the same consist tomorrow unless it just wouldn't move out of the yard at all ...
Once again, sorry for interloping on this convo but that's a damned shame it's come to that kind of mentality among (ahem - sexism warning) "trainmen" these days ...
I agree the union has lost sight of its place in the scheme of things.IMHO I believe the Union bargins for all a good contract between the company and management. The contract is a set of rules to work by. The next most important level of involvement is to protect the employees rights from egotistical self serving management types who have no leadership ability. If and a big If the employees do their job professionally and the managers don't ask them to break the mutually agreed upon rules unless it is to preserve the safety of the passengers Safety rules excluded then it would be a better place to work.
Since Robert S Mac Namara who thought you could manage people the work place has not been the same.
You lead people and manage things. You look at the bottom line but when it becomes the god of decesions the system or company will fail. A great example was body count in Viet Nam. The younger surfers won't understand that didn't live through it.The individuals didn't fail there it was the managers back in the puzzle palaces that failed. We got egged.
The other divider is craft lines. I know it means job security but they have to move together and both agree that their can be gray areas.
With communication between operators and maintenance more efficiency will occur. The employees will be happier and the passengers will be well served.
I hope some management types read this, besiges the operators who post here also.
Would like to hear there side.
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Gee, you have no predjudice against management, do you?
You can't blame the crew for that. Polarity reversers are not taught, at least as far as my last transfer to the IRT was concerned. I was taught that when I broke in as a T/O because most of the system used them. I fortunately still remember how to do the job. There are those who remember the few who got zapped while turning on cab switches. Management seems to think that synchronizing watches, and reporting to work during emergency bulletins are more important. The union makes CYA more important than anything. Thats what the car inspectors are for.
It's very simple. If the car inspectors do not do their job and clean the steel dust from inside the panels, the handles eventually become carbonized and then you get zapped. I've long since learned t use a shoe paddle for 600V switches.
It's even simpler! The crew may be correct in saying that it's not their job to throw that switch. I disagree because the switch was put there for the operator to use but let's assume that he's not rquired to use it. Instead, let's assume that it's a regular road train and a similar situation occurs. The T/O refuses to throw a switch or reset a circuit breaker - saying it's not his job. the train remains in service but one car has no lights or no AC or no PA. The people get the ride they pay for but do they get the quality of service that they deserve. In the same way, the people from the revenue dept. are the customers and they are not getting the quality they deserve - perhaps because the operator would not take that extra step. It's sad that the unions do not see that the goal of both sides should be to please the custoer and not make them a pawn in the war between union and management
Playing devil's advocate, back when the fleet was run with bubble gum and bailing wire, there were TSS's and RCI's every few stations who would get on and ride for whatever reason attracted their attention. Are there enough of them out there?
I remember how we'd pick one up on the northbound at Bedford, they'd ride the car up and back from 205th relay and break out the hammer and do their thing and get off, go upstairs and repeat the process all day long. While you can blame the union guys for not doing "out of title" work, management does have a tendency to not define the boundaries very well either.
And yeah, absent the good old gloves of yesteryear, I'd want to use a wood myself. I've had "hot" controllers in my days too.
RCIs were known as the 'marines of transit' when I started. Speaking as a former RCI, the job, today, is not what it once was. Friday, I was at a luncheon with 2 of the managers from the Emergency Response Unit. During the speech by one of them, the point was made that the fleet has become so reliable that there is little call for the RCIs of old. Worse yet, when something does go wrong, they have 'forgotten' what to do. They are simply out of practice. As for the TSSs, the federal gov't mandates them. The number of TSSs has increased significantly - recently. This is likely due to Federal mandate and need due to more poorly trained operators & conductors.
As a quick aside, earlier this week, I was reading Stan Fischler's account of the Roosevelt Avenue collision. I've always been interested in this accident for two reasons. One of those reasons was that the it involved a former employee of mine - who actually was my inspiration to become an RCI in the first place. If nothing else, the chilling account points out that up to that time,procedures were not formerly in place or simply winked at. It is possible, due to lack of use or practice, that we could end up there again.
I did not, in my previous post, intend to imply that the unions were the only cause for poor quality service. Managerial inertia must also be looked at. I like to point out to my supervisors:
"There is no wisdom in doing the same thing and expecting a different result."
Management has been woefully lacking in making changes, too.
Given what you're doing now, I had a feeling you'd come through the car inspector route - that's generally the path to the car shop if promoted from inside ... yeah, back in my day, trains would lay down often so the mighty RCI's were stationed on at least every express stop - you'd do what you could to at least get the heap to give indication or cut out what you could to drag the mess to wherever an RCI was waiting with ball pein hammer at the ready. :)
It wasn't just a job, it was an ADVENTURE back in 70-71 and school car jammed your head with so many things necessary to roll a train when it refused that I've largely forgotten most of it over the years. Of course cutting out the magnet valves is something I can still do in my sleep if only there were cars still on the road that had them.
And yes, the Roosevelt carving as well as the "Times Square mystery crash" were two items that I found hard to fathom as well. I saw the remains of the local at Coney ... yow. And no, I didn't take what you said as a slap at the union - the adversary roles are the result of DECADES of miscommunication ... something I saw in other state agencies as well. Politics has an unnerving ability to create antigravity situations without benefit of velcro shoes for the ceiling ... or as we used to call it back in my days there, "where the rubber meets the sky" ...
A) I'd say 9 out of 10 train operators who came out of schoolcar
in the last 10 years have NO idea what the B2, CB+, 5, etc.
circuit breakers do! That's partly because new t/os are not
required to drill in the yard for a pick before going on to the
road.
B) Even if they know what the switch does, they don't dare touch
it unless Control Center says so, lest something bad happen and
they get penalized for taking the initiative. Or, as you said,
they touch a high-voltage switch that is covered in grease and
steel dust and they get hit {but things are a lot cleaner in the
cabs now than 20 years ago)
C) Wasn't there some kind of kluge box that they were using in
place of polarity reverser clocks, that is mounted on the ceiling
of the cab up near the conductor's valve? Or am I thinking of
something else?
I believe you were thinking of the oscillator circuit that allowed the handbrake indication circuit to be piggybacked on one of the DC wires where no spare EP pins were available.
I'll have to look next time I'm in the cab of an R17. I could
swear there are two kluge boxes up there. One, as you say, is
the audio frequency overlay circuit for the handbrake indication.
But I remember another box with a Danger 600 Volts warning on it.
Your talking about the pulse generator, not the main light reverser. Which circuit did the handbrakes piggyback off of during the installation of the microswitch on R10 and up?
Having to switch for a pick wasn't the story; school car instructions taught about those circuit breakers in addition to issued written materials. But regardless I think having to work yard duty for a pick before taking trains out with passengers was the proper way to do it. Get a feel for the equipment and learn a few things the hard way first.
I guess I took a little more interest both as a railfan and "that's the way I was made" mentality. If it took 3 seconds or so to open the panel and flip that switch and have the lights work OK to passenger's benefits why not?
Pretty sad that the situation you describe exists... T/O's not knowing what those breakers are for. Is that overall or for some who slip thru? I wouldn't wish the "big road" engineer exams on anybody but a T/O responsibility and wage scale are similar not to mention job duties and it's sad if people don't have thorough training.
Sadder yet that management will penalize and employee for going out of the way if an injury results. [If I believed in "no my yob" a lot of trains would have had to drop out with loss to service]Maybe it was better when we had managers who went along with people who tried and B/O equipment? Better yet with good equipment.
yes sir ! you can have it big time!! (smile )
reset this big time!!! nice information !! i see this in other systems maybe even atlanta in some places philadelphia too !!!
the redbirds are not the only villans in this !!! he he he !!!
Heh heh, cool posting! I like the 'birds too, but their time has passed. And unlike some other equipment (do I hear R30?), they've had a reasonably long life.
And unlike some other equipment (do I hear R30?), they've had a reasonably long life.
The R-22 was even more unlucky. While the R-30 barely made it past 30, The R-22 did not make it past 30 at all.
You really had me going there for a minute. I thought you may had forsaken your car radio for an eight track player !
Bill "Newkirk"
But you know what? I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Soft Cherry, R20WHINE, and SALMONELLA did go out and try this
lifestyle. I can say one thing, it'd be as lamed brained as some of their post.
********************************************************************************************************
Speak for youself B.C. comics & fred flintstone !! also encino man the annimal planet of da' apes ...urrastic park etc....
The fact of the matter is the fact that one time even the subway / mass transit / transportation cars, equipment etc....
LIKE THE CURRENT RUNNING LIKE A SON OF A ***** REDBIRDS were built tough strong simple & grrrrreeeeaaaatttt!!
like the old saying if you remembet this ( THE QUALITY GOES IN BEFORE THE NAME GOES ON ) !!!!
Of cource all built in the U.S.A. with union paid american workers ............wooooopppppeeeee!!!!!!!!!
Not some bombbabbblllednnerrr, bombbabner ( UGH !!) & or some japanese mfg company!! " Kwasacky" Kawasacksacky ??
not even the lone ranger right hand man.... " tonto " would approve of that !!
Build your subway cars here with New Yorkers, etc.. hands like the good old days !! Employ american union paid labor for a starter!!
But please be man enough to admit your new R-142s are made out of pure crap & bullshit they will not last long !!!
Styrofoam does not make good material to build a subway car with...!!!!!!..... he he he he he he ( smile ) LOL !!!!!!
The Redbirds were NOT build strong, the rust bears that out.
Simplicity is not a good thing. It leads to more unreliability and lack of versatility.
And as for their greatness, that's subjective.
Union-built equipment will not be better, a union man has more incentive to slack off than a non-union worker. Besides, modern subway cars aren't built by people, they're built by robots and the robots are serviced by technicians, a position which is not traditionally union.
Japanese and Canadian companies are the ONLY place for subway cars, now that the US rail manufacturing business is dead.
No New Yorkers built subway cars, there were no car factories in NY.
Skilled technicians are not a union position.
And the R-142s are BUILT TOUGH AND WILL LAST LONG.
And what is it with you and styrofoam? Apart from the fact the R-142 has no styrofoam, why would it be a bad material? It can act as an insulator, it's lightweight and its cheap.
I know I'm talking to the wall here, but its been awhile since the last time.
>>>And the R-142s are BUILT TOUGH AND WILL LAST LONG.<<<
They could have better longevity than the R-10..............or they could be the biggest piece of crap since the last time you looked in the toilet bowl. It's too early to tell.
My opinion: they'll be lemons and they'll break down frequently. When I mean break down, that also includes the computers on board. The redbirds are crap, so it's just swapping crap for crap. Hopefully, these trains won't rain in the cab as badly as it's raining outside.
I think that we've pretty much beaten this horse to death - and resolved nothing. To put an end to this, let's look at the facts.
Only a few of the so-called redbirds were true redbirds. Many began their lives as bluebirds or blackbirde.
The cars we refer to as redbirds were never state-of-the-art cars. They were simple, basic cars.
They were never great performers. Until very recently, their MDBF was mediocre.
They are not the same cars that were purchased in the late 50s and 60s. They've been modified numerous times and overhauled at least once.
They were built with an expected life-span of 35 years.
There mileage/maintenance man-hr. is well below acceptable standards.
Even Joe Namath and LT had to retire. IT IS TIME FOR THEM TO GO.
The R-142s & the R-143s are here. Like it or not, they will remain with us for the next 2 generations.
They will be made to work and perform as intended. The contracts call for the cars to operate at certain performance benchmarks (MDBF) before the warranty clock begins to tick.
Keep in mind that when delivered, R-44s and R-46 rarely achieved MDBF over 10,000 miles. 8 years ago the R-68 ran at 25,000 miles MDBF.
Special Note for Salaam - Both cars (except prototypes) will be built in the USA
Time to end this debate guys. Unless you're checked out in SCUBA, get your last redbird rides in soon.
THANK YOU! This truly *is* getting TIRED. I *stole* a redbird in the mid-1960's with two friends and ditched it between Dyckman and 191st. Even THEN the cab had rust stains on the walls from where the water got in. When I left the city in 1976 after a brief stint with the TA, I saw MANY a cab in those turds. ESPECIALLY on the front walls, they had rust on them from the water getting in. Folks forget all those louvers on top that did nothing much more than channeling water throughout the car bodies. Back in the 1970's, I routinely looked inside the door panels and there was RUST ... now it's 30 years later and my sphincter twitches at what possible condition they are in, bondo or not.
Those things were deathtraps 30 years ago and it's an outright MIRACLE that they're still plying the rails. You and your guys should be awarded honors for having anything at all LEFT to ply the rails today. In all sincerity, I wouldn't ride a redbird today out of plain logical fear that the car I was in would take a curve and do that tumbling act down the express track that was seen in the "Money train" flick.
Then again, I can be philosophical about them since I ran R1/9's while they were still in the fleet and were fruitful and multiplied. But unless painstakingly restored like the folks at Branford and Shoreline have done with them, I wouldn't set foot on one of those either unless they had received special attention.
Ride 'em, love 'em, take pictures ... it's time for them to go. Now I won't argue with anyone who feels that toasters on wheels with no soul is an adequate replacement - I find the shinies with bright lights an anathema to my own nostalgia as well ... but the redbirds got all used up in the SEVENTIES fer krimminy's sake ...
thats why i am going to be there this fall to capture the last of them ON VIDEO etc, when quality was put in before the name whent on !!
Bring on the scarpyard-ready-R142s ( ugh ) !!!!
Salaam, perhaps I can arrange for you to ride on the first reef-bound redbird. You can film from the railfan window as it approaches the new 'Davy Jones Locker' terminal. HeHeHeHe........... Now that would make a real interesting video.
As long as the doors are off, that really WOULD be an interesting video if the cam operator had scuba, with a shot of the water climbing up the railfan window like a washing machine filling up on the way down ... I'm sure someone would want to shoot that ...
I realize a lot of you wax nostalgic when the Redbirds are mentioned, but as Selkirk alludes, it's time for them to go. Mechanical/electrical
equipment only lasts for a certain time period, then it's bye-bye.
After the R-142, R-142A,and R143's get through their "teething"
prolems, they'll provide fine service to the public.
We've had our problems with the Philly M-4's but they are running pretty well at this point. So are the Broad St. B-IV's, although
they are a little tired.
So stop pissing and moaning and accept the future!
My company just introduced and Oil -Well tool that measures while you drill. Now if you want someone to be mad at, be mad at the Oil Companies, we're giving them ways to find oil faster and cheaper.
So why is gas so expensive? My Neon gets 30 mpg , and my Windstar
gets an avg. of 20. Do we have to all get smaller cars again, or
"ride mass transit"?
TransitChuckG
the m4s are not made out of styrofoam like the 142s !! .....
better styrofoam tahn rust.
No, but they are close to it.
>>We've had our problems with the Philly M-4's but they are running pretty well at this point. So are the Broad St. B-IV's, although they are a little tired.<<
The B-IV's are not tired at all, and as for The M-4's, did they get new trucks, because if they didn't, then that's an accident waiting to happen. And one more thing, The B-IV's are worthy of Roman numerals while the M-4's aren't.
Sure hope that oil well tool goes "ding ding ding" like an old gas pump. :)
One of the problems right now, thanks to 20 years of yo-yo oil prices, is that not enough people are convinced yet that taking a job as an oilfield worker will be anything more than a permanent position, which means there aren't enough people avilable to actually go in an drill the stupid wells in the first place (major businesses go on-campus to recruit new workers near graduation time -- in Oklahoma last year, some oil companies were going to the state prisons to interview workers who were pending either release or parole to try and fill the job openings).
The people who came on during the last big oil price hike from 1973-81 are 20-30 years older now -- and oilfield work is not for old people -- and the newer ones don't see the point in taking a job if the price is going to tumble back down into the teens or lower in the near future. Apparently, stable prices around $19-$23 a barrel would be the best level to both keep consumer prices down but stay high enough to keep the drilling rigs active and the oilfield workers off the unemployment lines.
Certainly, given their profit margins over the past 12 months, the oil companies can dig into their profits and shell out some more $$$ to lure people into the business (which between the outdoor work and the dangers involved, is a pretty crappy job unless you're getting $40,000-$50,000 a year minimum), but the lack of a labor pool to do the grunt work is a problem in getting more oil and gas on line right now.
question ( maybe a bit off topic ) remember when there was a lot of SMALL oil companies owned by ordinary folks ??
& this was nationwide remember ?? the big oil diesel & gas engine mfgs bought out the PE syetem here in los angeles !!!
this also goes for all of the trolley lines as well...
question ( maybe a bit off topic ) remember when there was a lot of SMALL oil companies owned by ordinary folks ??
That hasn't existed since the time of John D. Rockefeller Sr.
Sun Oil Co. (Sunoco) and Gulf were the only one of the major regionals not to be swamped by John D. prior to the 1907 antitrust ruling breaking Standard Oil up into its smaller parts -- Mobil, Exxon, Chevron, Amaco and Sohio -- but all of that was based on the major Pennsylvania and Ohio oil finds. There were some new regionals founded after oil came in in Texas, California and Oklahoma in the early 1900s -- Teaxco, Sinclair, Union 76, Conoco, Phillips 66.
Of that group, only the last one could be considered anything like a "family concern" into the latter part of the century (at least to the people of Bartlesville, Okla., and Borger, Tex. the main facilities were located), and there have been a few other companies to get involved that Rocky Sr. didn't have contact with, like Ultramar-Diamond Shamrock, which just got bought out by Valero Energy for about $5 billion. Definitely not a mom-and-pop type operation sale price.
Marathon and Ashland Oil Co. in the Ohio, Kentucy, W.Va triangle also could be considered a bit more "community friendly" because they also kept to a small area and never branched out into a major national or multi-regional operation.
ok but first let me video you this fall "" taking a flying leap "" first to demonstrate how an expert like you do this the best !!!
...@..he he he he.... Yourself ...!!!! ( mr davey jones locker )..... Lol!!!!
thanks zman 179 thank you for letting me shoot aboard your M train !! the tape came out very nice i do appreciate it !!
Simplicity is not a good thing. It leads to more unreliability and lack of versatility.
That's exactly opposite of the truth. More complex things lead to more unreliabity. Recent case example: The nuclear industry is currently trying to make a comeback with a new generation of nuclear power plants that are completely different than the ones built in the 70s. In the old systems, in case of a meltdown, the reactors had numerous pumps and complex machinery to deliver a large amount of cool water in a minimal amount of time to the core. These systems were adapted from nuclear submarine technology. In the new systems, which are designed specifically for commercial use, all they have is a gravity tank that sits on top of the core. In case of need, all that needs to be done is to release the water and it falls down into the core.
The old system is more complex, the new system is simple, which do you think is prone to more breakdowns?
And for the record, you should know that I'm a new car enthusiast, so don't consider this a defense of the rustbirds.
your post contained no proff such as specks information to prove your point etc..... however your post was 100% emotional
& void of all content !! ( please try again ) .........thank you !
>>> Simplicity is not a good thing. It leads to more unreliability and lack of versatility. <<<
Rube Goldberg lives!!! :-)
Tom
I've already weighed in and while I lived in the Bronx and did plenty of redbird riding duty in my days, I always hated the damned things since they replace the LoV's and just weren't the same ... and after coming of age listening to the loV's doing their lovely "rrrRRRRRRRRRRR" sounds much like the R1/9's, when the "redbirds" came on the property in the 1950's, the three things that I hated MOST about them was the bright lights (compared to the lovely glow of a LoV), the WHINING NOISES from the motors instead of the "rrrRRRRR" sound and worst of all, the antiseptic paint job and glossy panels (not to mention the RIDICULOUS PLASTIC SEATS [ok, it was fiberglass but to us it was plastic compared to the wicker]) ...
I've noticed abundant whining about the R16's here lately as being garbage on wheels ... what I DON'T get is that they were the same damned design as the redbirds, only a bit bigger. Am I MISSING something here?
Everything old is new again ... bring back the LoV's ... :)
The R-16s were not large redbirds. They had many technological advances that never really caught on. Thankfully - I had little experience with them. Some of those technological enhancements were:
They were the first R-type B division equipment with the door controls on the inside (a good thing)
The groups (either Westinghouse or GE were overly complicated and a maintenance nightmare.
On the GE's the grids were enclosed. The enclosures were cooled by a fan on the end of the M-G. If the M-G failed, the car had this wonderful glow about it.
Of course, let's not forget about the vacuum tube PA system or the fact that you needed a key to turn on the lights.
Picky picky ... heh. Yeah, I was overgeneralizing but somehow that's become de rigeur here. They did *look* a lot like the "new IRT cars" though (remember my own perspective towards redbirds in general is that the Interborough Rapid Transit purchases were the real subway cars, and the iron boats that the Board of Transit contracted for were pretenders to the throne) ... and by car body design likely were prone to the same problems.
And yes, I've seen red underbellies on those as well as a good number of redbirds in my days ... and when they glowed in BROAD DAYLIGHT, I was glad I wasn't on THAT car. :)
Actually there was quite a bit of evolution to what is being called the redbirds now. The R16 was only the progenitor of the body style, and they were garbage at least later on. The R17/21/22 were the IRT version of them. The R26,29,33,36 were a lot better piece of equipment and related to the B div. R27/30. Likewise the door controls had pushbuttons where the 16-22 had levers; seats were foam rubber with red vinyl cover R16 thru 22, the last 10 RR's introduced fiberglass then the rest is history. [The R-15 originated indoor door controls]
As a motorman I was always happier with the R26 and up, if you could find a solid train which was rare except on Pelham and exclusive on Flushing.They were so much peppier and responded better.
I concur with your statements on the Low-V etc!
Yo, guy! I was born in 1951 myself ... the LoV's were on their way to the grave before I could tell the difference myself between IND and IRT (that BMT stuff was for those foreigners south of the border, down Krooklyn way heh) ... but I got enough riding of them as a kid to really appreciate them. In fact, the LoV's were probably the REASON why I went out of my way when I worked the "ta" to pull R9 duty ... old, with bulbs that screwed in the wrong way! *MINE*! ALL MINE! *MY* train ... :)
At least we still had them into my teens on the third avenue El from 149th to Gunhill ... and BELIEVE me, I went out of my way to get all I could of those before those goofy Corona cars replaced them ... those miserable "mini R10's" with not enough doors and too many winders ...
You'd think that I wouldn't understand you with my new is better mentality, but I can.
It's not about what's new and what's old, but the R-16 to R-33 represented the NADIR (G) of subway car design advancement through the ages. The R-33 single and R-36WF are the same, but the picture window makes them look a lot better. And the R-32 is my favorite (along with the R-46).
Newer is better when it comes to the Repulsive Rustbirds, but so is older!
Heh. They served their time, they paid their debt to society. The 32's were very well built, I'll give ya that. Perhaps we might find to our mass hysteria that the 142's will turn out to be similarly happy. But in the greater scheme of life, we've all gotta get a grip here, they're just boxes that move people - that concept has never changed.
Dunno if I'd want to ride around in a 1964 Ford Galaxy either. :)
...on the other hand, a (non-rusty) 1964 Ford Mustang probably would be assessed at a higher value nowadays than a 1964 St. Louis Car World's Fair Redbird, even though both debuted roughly right next to each other (given the Ford Pavillion at the Fair and the Corona yard were only about 200 yards apart).
Yeah, a Mustang from that era would definitely be worth the effort to keep up - not so much the Ford Galaxy. As I wrote to someone else in email, Galaxies didn't fare too well in the salt air though - seems every scrap yard has some of them out front where they can be seen from the street looking even longer in the tooth than many of the redturds ... most were blue it seems and the brown/orange eating through them makes for a striking color combo that almost says, "follow me to the world's fair" ... heh.
But take that salty NYC air, add it to LAHT steelwork with loose-fitting rivets and it's amazing there aren't redbirds dropping off the els just from all the rot ... "ride the route of the mighty bondo cars" ... heh.
The R16 had a PA system? Good lord, I never knew that. I'd say by the time I rode them regularly (late 70's/early 80's), they were all broken.
As a matter of fact, PA use before the GOH program started was almost nil. I miss riding trains which slipped into stations, then closed up without a single announcement. No "Watch the closing doors". Must've made GO's a nightmare back then.
All cars - R-16 through R-21 had Graybar Electric, Vacuum Tube PA Systems. Whether or not they were maintained or used - it was before my time (professionally, that is).
When the R-16s plowed the EE and the GG in the early 1970s, the PA systems were still in operation, if you could call it that -- people who complain about not being able to hear the Redbirds' PAs today should have tried to listen to one of those babies, especially during the summer with the windows open.
The voice managed to be distorted and muffled at the same time, making it seem like the conductor was attempting to impress the riders by showing over the speaker system that he could gargle with a mouthful of marbles. The loudspeaker equipment on future TA deliveries over the next decade may not have been a quantum leap in technology, but it was better than what the R-16s offered.
What was used before, and after?
Before, nothing. The older cars were retrofitted with PA, although
I thought the R15 was the first order with it original. After,
solid state amps from various manufacturers. As the tube amps
blew they were replaced with solid state afterkluges. I know
the amp in museum R17 6688 was replaced, not sure about the R16
in Kingston or any of the cars in Court St.
Interestingly enough, some of the AB standards had experimental
PA systems in the 1920s.
Yes! The BMT standard early in the game had PA's. Some old timers told me the trainman/conductor would get a shock from using them, maybe that's an apocryphal story.
The R16 was the first order with PA's. The first DECENT PA systems I remember were on the R38's, nice and clear and audible. [even if they were noisy and had lousy braking]
The R10-15 were retrofitted after the summer l974 fire in the Clark St. tube [IRT West side] that i was stuck in...luckily not in the worst of it. Management was convinced that commuication with passengers was necessary but unfortunately it wouldn't have erased the condition that a train was stuck in the fire (southbound tube)
R-4 484 also had an experimental PA system; it still has its mikes just above the trigger boxes. The R-10s had their mikes in the same location.
R17 only LOOKED like a small R16 on the surface but underneath they were worlds apart. Different mfrs too.
As unreliable and slow as the R16 were the R17 was rugged and fast.
wayne
..whew!!..........Man ! you will really HATE the new R-142s the lights inside them new JUNKS will blind you!!
You will have to wear Sunglasses in order to escape the BLINDING too BRIGHT light inside these new scrap-ready-to-order..
JUNKERS I remember the old low vs hi-vs in my childhood days thats when the SUBWAY was a SUBWAY !!!!
DONT THEY RUN THE OLD IRTS LOW- Vs & HIGH VS ON MUSEUM RUNS ANYMORE ?? geeezzzz!!!
Assalamualaikum ... yeah, I'm a throwback to the days when lights were measured in CANDLE power (and the corollary was logical) ... I don't know the 142's, haven't seen them, not in a hurry to do so, but find it amusing that the same complaints we all had about the then new "redbirds" are being trotted out once again for the new toys.
And no, I don't think there's any LoV's as work motors any longer but then I'm not in a position to know for sure. I *do* know where two of them are parked though, one in Kingston and one in Connecticut ... :)
SUBTALK LIVE TOMORROW
May 12, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!
SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. This is our first chat. Subsequent chats may be held depending on this week's success. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic. Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in or use mIRC!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Preservation Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored facade
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
The Port Authority announced in a press release that contracts worth $313 million, funded jointly by MTA and PA have been let to rebuild Jamaica Station. While one immediate purpose is to prepare the AirTrain terminal, this confirms that the entire station is to be redone, and that this project was not affected by the failure of the Bond Act.
The AirTrain portion will be complete by '03; but I believe it will take two more years to finish the rest (better integration of LIRR and subway facilities, rebuilt waiting rooms, bathrooms etc., more natural light with a steel and glass design)...
How about an enclosed transfer from the LIRR station to the E/J/Z station at Archer Ave?
The Airtrain News shows a picture of how the new station is supposed to look.
i can see those old platforms replaced or redone as well as replacing those rusted staircases and columns. But has anybody noticed those nicely rebuilt waiting rooms on the platforms ? I wonder if they work around them or will they be demolished.
Oh well, it's only taxpayer money !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heard on the news that due to signal and switching problems near Penn station there were major LIRR delays in the afternoon.
Looked like Penn station was a mess. If you take LIRR I find things always go smoother when the destination ISN'T Penn station.
Better to take it to Jamaica or Flatbush and take the subway from there than the crawl into Penn station.
Heard on the news that due to signal and switching problems near Penn station there were major LIRR delays in the afternoon.
Looked like Penn station was a mess. If you take LIRR I find things always go smoother when the destination ISN'T Penn station.
Better to take it to Jamaica or Flatbush and take the subway from there than the crawl into Penn station.
It was awful. I got on the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma, changing at Ronkonnkoma for Medford/Greenport. The train left Penn only about ten minutes late, maybe less, although it was short two cars. Unfortunately, I had to wait over a half-hour at Ronkonkoma for the Greenport train, because the 5:41 from Penn (which also has a connection to Greenport) was almost 45 minutes late. I ended up getting home at 8 instead of 7:15, which was a major pain because I had planned to take the kids to Smith Haven Mall for Mother's Day shopping. Now we'll have to go tomorrow evening.
You're lucky they didn't annull the scoot and call a bus.
At 9:30pm, Newsradio 880 said 1 hour delays out of Penn, so it must have been 1-1/2 to 2 hours by then.
I took the 9:34 PM from Penn to Babylon and there was no delay, nor any indication that Penn was still messed up.
CG
You're lucky they didn't annull the scoot and call a bus.
Oh, that happens often enough ...
I snuck out of work early. Murphy's Law dictated this would happen...the LIRR was a joke. When the trains are backed up, there's no standing room. I would up taking the #7 to Flushing, then the bus, which were packed too....
www.forgotten-ny.com
So you rode LI Bus. The N20/21 is a freakin headache. Crowded, slow, and the constant stop and go (the 25a traffic is terrible!)
And often the A/C isn't on.
So you rode LI Bus.
LIBus is the only service out of Flushing?
Assuming you take LIRR to Long Island, you'd be taking LI Bus. Unless of course your usual LIRR station is in Queens.
WoodsideGreat NeckFlushingManhassetMurray HillPlandomeAuburndalePort WashingtonBroadwayNo more Nasty County stationsBaysideDouglastonAnd still stops in QueensLittle Neck
Ok. My friend and I need some opinions here. My friend says that someone told him that the L line goes further than its 8th avenue terminal. To further his belief, he says that at the bumping blocks at 8th avenue the rails go into the wall. I say that there is no extension. The only story I have heard about a possible extension is from old Mayor Hylan's plan to connect the Canarsie line with his pre-IND 8th avenue line. His plan was from 1922 and 8th avenue terminal was opened in 1931. My friend and I would love to hear your stories to resolve this friendly disagreement. Thanks.
>"at the bumping blocks at
>8th avenue the rails go into the wall"
If "the rails go into the wall"... I don't
see how the 'L' could go any further...
thus making 8th Avenue the "end zone".
...or is it a typo?
My apologies. From what I can gather from my friend, he means that the rails continue past the bumping blocks and into the tiled wall. As if the track was laid first and then the masoners came an built a wall at the station end right behind the bumping blocks.
The L ends at 8th avenue - the tunnel is a solid dead end. The only false end wall that I'm aware of is at Second Avenue on the F.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only false end wall that I'm aware of is at Second Avenue on the F.
It's a fence.
For those who are interested, I've uploaded three pics from Member's Day at Branford... click on the thumbnails for a bigger view.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
The Pics look great. I'm only sorry I had to miss all the action. Unfortunately, the job has kept me away. One thing's for sure - I'LL BE BACK.
One has to plan ahead to Autumn in NY.....
-Stef
Wow ... THANKS for the shots ... if the LoV is the lead motor, I'd be honored to bring up the rear for the reverse ride home some day. Never did a LoV, they were gone when I was a kid ... but the 1/9'ers were home to me for almost a year ... in uniform too. Heh.
It's a pity there isn't a PAIR of my faves somewhere for proper "assuming of the position" TRUE conductor style but then those puppies dated back to the "electricity too cheap to meter" days so I do understand WHY there ain't a pair to be had. There's something southern style "unnatural barnyard act" about coupling up a LoV and an R9 to begin with but I suppose that's as good as it gets if you want to make a train ...
My own fantasy ride would be Big Ed on the lead motor and me on the tail motor to bring it back home. Unless of course the R9 could be the lead out and let the LoV tail it. Heh.
To Selkirk: Bzzzt. That's a _HI_ V on the lead, look at the deckroof.
{Besides, that appears to be me in the cab}
If you think Lo-V / R-9 is an unnatural barnyard act, this takes
the farm!
To Anon: Are these 3 your members day photo contest shots?
Whoops! I plead brain damage ... yep, you're right. I don't recall EVER having seen any in service ... if I remember correctly the Hi's ended their life east of E 180 St, way out of my territory ... definitely gotta drag my sorry butt into that one one of these days ...
Are these 3 your members day photo contest shots?
Didn't realize there was a photo contest... guess I wasn't paying attention when it was mentioned... but yes, you can consider them as such, since they are unquestionably the best three I took.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, Seashore has a pair, R-4 800 and R-7 1440. They keep each other company. You and Big Ed could take turns being motorman and conductor.:-)
I can see this scenario now: you've been in the cab all day. Finally someone comes around saying, "Uh, Kev, we're closing. Time to get out of the cab." Meanwhile, you're sitting there in the cab, transfixed, an iron grip on the controller. You refuse to leave. You're heard muttering, "My train. MY TRAIN! ALL MINE!!":-)
Are you kidding? Not ONLY wouldn't I get out of the cab and relay it for a layup, I'd break out my teddy and my bankee and insist on SLEEPING in the cab. Heh. I tell ya, I wouldn't mind taking home a 6 pack of R9 ... the neighbors would never talk to me again and Niagara Mohawk Power Corporation would probably give me a tee shirt. :)
Oh, and I forgot to mention the glazed look in your eyes.:-)
You could also reply, "In the immortal words of Mayor McCLellan on that inaugural run on Day One: 'This is MY train and I'M running it!!!'"
Yeah, I would imagine your electric bill would go through the roof. The power company would designate you as a preferred customer.:-) Now, suppose you could have a 6-car train at your disposal. Would you also play conductor?
Heh. Go ahead, bust 'em if ya got 'em ... My wiffie would be willing to play car monkey if we had to team up. I tell ya, if I could afford to buy about 16 miles of abandoned track here, we'd have TWICE the CPW dash for run time ... imagine how much coasting we could do after wrapping it for real. :)
I wouldn't be so piggish as to hog it (apologies in advance for taking the name of swine in vein twice here [sp. deliberate]) but yeah, some throttle time after 30 years would be the teats. McClellan I'm not, but it'd be a fun ride ... though I'd want to take two or three runs before hauling geese just so I can feel what the brakes are like these days ... the one thing I could (usually) count on with R1/9'ers was that when you USED the brakes, they were there even if it raised blue clouds behind it, they'd stop you where you wanted them to ... except for one time in CIY ... but I won't talk about it. Heh.
And glased, nope ... those'd be tears of joy ... like meeting a first love again. I really loved those cars ...
Although it's no secret I loved the R-10s dearly, I was just as fond of the R-1/9s. Their marvelous symphony of sounds was second to none.
The R10's were a mighty cool train as well ... I only RODE them ... if you've seen my other posts, it was the IRT or the A train when I wanted to get downtown from the Bronx ... TODAY ... back when I was a rider, EVERY A train was an R10, never an exception ... and they were smooth. Later on, I moved from Marble Hill to Norwood, and thus the D train became my ride ... sacrilege ... those 32's ... BMT cars. Heh.
But when I went to work for the "ta" I got to do the AA/CC cars though for rush, they'd run the D ... my pick was origin Brighton and I was dumb enough to pick the R1/9's (I never regretted it but I got me some serious ball busting for CHOOSING them) ... loved them to death since that's what I did day in and day out with rare exceptions where I'd get a 32 as conductor and three times as motorman in my days ... they realy were sweet cars if you knew how to handle them and there was no shortage of old timers who would tell you, "forget that school car crap, HERE'S what you do here when that happens ... " Heh.
I have a very special fondness for the R-32s The very first subway train I ever rode on was a brand spanking new R-32 consist. Their blue doors got my attention, too. They zipped effortlessly along the Broadway express tracks. Later, I rode on my share of D trains of Brightliners.
So you also did AA and CC runs, eh? I thought you only did the D. Maybe you were the motorman on Heypaul's prewar CC tape recording.:-)
Heh. Doubtful. I was an "extra" since it was my first tour on the railroad ... I almost always got a D run from Brighton or Coney north to where I lived at 205th and then back to Coney. On RARE occasion when we got to Bedford, I'd be turned back around as a CC - happened only once or twice. Never did 168th St (Manhattan) though.
And yeah, the 32's were OK cars. I *despised* the bingbongs aside from the fact that they were nice and cold ... as a passenger they were OK but I preferred working the R1/9'ers ... they just had "soul" almost as though the cantankerous beasties had *emotions* of their own. If you treated them right, they'd get you home. Treat them with contempt and sometimes they KNEW it. I'd often take one out that the previous crew had a hard time with and they purred for me.
Yeah, when their compressors would kick in, you'd think those oldtimers were alive. Moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses - you got it all. And I loved every one of those sounds. Not to mention that sqealing E train at 42nd St. one morning. It sounded like a flock of sea gulls. I wanted to duck for cover.
That's what I woke up for every day ... I got better. :)
I mentioned Heypaul's audio cassette a while back. I highly recommend it for anyone who remembers the R-1/9s fondly. It's chock full of sounds of the oldtimers.
He linked me to some snippets of it that he had tucked away on a web site ... and very nice indeed. It's hard to describe though how much NICER it was in the cab where some of the valves were and with the side window down against the wall on your side ... YUM ...
And starting them up from cold was even nicer. Another thing I miss is the sounds of the bottles when you're out between the cars ... that's all kinda gone and lost forever though. Back in those days, tape recorders were either small and crappy for the recordings they made (usually from a cheesy built-in microphone that would pick up the sounds inside the machine better than anything outside) or the real fanatics who had Nagras or Uhers and Sennheiser mics ... I know there's a guy that actually used motion-picture quality mics and machines who parked himself on a platform edge somewhere. I think I heard about him here.
But from what little I heard that Heypaul had linked to, that'd do quite well also. I still miss those cars after all these years. The job itself, feh ... the cars though, I'd give my left nut for a ten car consist at 205th again ...
Would you believe that one of our members is in town for a couple of weeks to do some repairs on his favorite subway car. He prefers our R-9 to the local hotels.
Mr t__:^)
I'm not QUITE that nuts ... but close. My big problem is that the wife and I run a very small software company in a truly crappy economy as far as the software biz goes. That means 24/7 here with no days off since it's just us these days. Nobody to leave behind to do the hand holding, email or anything else and just barely enough coming in to pay the bills with nothing left over ... means until the economy picks up a bit, we're skrewed.
If I *could* get away, I'd make a beeline for your place there and mop the floors, scrape white enamel off the ceilings, paint, rewind rotors, ANYTHING to earn some throttle time ... and LIVE there if I could ... but I *loved* those things since I worked them once upon a distant time past ... I actually volunteered for duty on those at a time when the R32's to 44's were taking over ... that's how much they meant to me then ... now that they're gone, I miss them even more.
Did I also mention I could picture you gazing at 1689, shaking your head and getting misty-eyed - while wearing a silly grin ear to ear?:-) The again, if you were to become a member and lead barn tours, you could tell visiors you actually operated those cars in revenue service once upon a time.
It's entirely possible that I *motored* 1689 ... there's one car I remember particular, SIX-EIGHTY-NINE ... THAT was the car where, when I was a conductor, the controller fell apart in my lap (literally fell off the wall and broke up, and the drum fell right into my lap) ... turned out it WASN'T live, but had no way of knowing at the time. To say that my underwear was ... "unclean" was an understatement ... when they knocked a consist back when I worked there, it was usually a 4, 7 or 9 that was on the ends of the wreckage I signed out. :)
Coulda been ... anyhoo, words cannot describe how MUCH I wish I had the time and money to make it to Branford, first as a mere tourista, and even MORE so as "with the show" ... alas, the "internet economy" (I work for a software company that actually PROVIDES security and anonymity for users of Billyware) has gone down the toity and as such, it's just me and the wife these days - means ZERO time off - we work 24/7 with sleep breaks and that's about it since we've managed to get on Microsoft's sheet list and therefore, no press to make people aware that we even exist ... but man, if I could get me some time off from this gig, I'd LOVE to *live* at Branford as well as whatever spare time going to the Kingston Trolley museum since I live only 60 miles away from there ... Branford is a long haul from here ...
All of the R-9s including 1689 went to the Eastern Division in 1968-69 along with most of the R-7As. 689 was an R-4, and IIRC the remaining prewar cars on the D were R-4s at that time. The CC also used R-4s. Most of the R-6s and R-7As remaining on the IND were seen on the E and F lines.
I'd love to be at Branford if and when you ever have a chance to make it out. I'll bet that seeing 1689 in the flesh would be like finding a long-lost toy. That was the feeling I had when I first saw it there in 1980.
Don't tell me Eddie S. is back in town.:-)
Anon_e_mouse, Thanks for sharing.
As you might suspect I enjoyed the Hi-V/R-9 shot most of all. Except for the open front door this shot looks like it could have been taken on the system (this rail fan pretends not to see the trolley pole and that the following car isn't the same as the first .... because I have my rose colored glasses on).
BTW, you took it from our high level platform ... did you pay your fare as you went thru the token booth :-)
Mr t
I've put together some photos of Buffalo's MetroRail that hopefully will end up as a page on NYCsubway.org. I do not have much information about the history of the line or details on its day to day operations, however.
If there's anyone out there who would like to contribute a line descrption to the page, or has more photos to share please email me.
I have temporarily posted the photos Here
to give an idea.
Rob
Believe it or not, Rob, but Dave already has added the pics to the US Cities section.
Our Webmaster is fast! Fast! Fast!
"Our Webmaster is fast! Fast! Fast!"
He is that.
The pictures would go better with a little story though.
Doesn't anyone know about Buffalo?
STG?
I can probably write up something in a style similar to the other write-ups (station by station account) if you want to take pictures. How do I get in touch with you?
I know a little about the Buffalo system, as I used to live there. It is a light rail system (basically a high quality trolley.) It has very good speed (I think up to 60mph) in its underground, about 5 mile, portion. Rather slow in its at grade street level portion in downtown Buffalo. The trolley runs from the Main Street Campus of the University at Buffalo (SUNY) to downtown. Various hopes to extend the line out to the Amherst Campus of the University have been frustrated by the enormous cost of the line. Amherst has become a competing economic center for the region, so the extension would be a very good thing for both communities (if the NIMBYs allowed it.)
The original line was, in truth, rather an outrageous piece of poitical pork delivered by the then influential Jack Kemp, Congressman from suburban Buffalo.
Sadly, the tremendous physical disruption caused by constructing the line caused great damage to the retail environment in downtown Buffalo, which was already weak. I am told that there are now no major stores left in downton Buffalo. In 1975, there were 5 or 6 major department stores.
I went to school at UB, 1992-95. I found the subway/light rail to be very useful, if not really frequent enough.
The "free fare zone", above ground, was easy to outrace by foot, or by crawling. The only reason to take it was in the bitter cold winter (you think we have winter in New York? Huh!), but then you have to wait for it. Maybe if you happen to hit it just as it's comming in.
THe underground section is reasonably fast. I love that the fare collection is by the honor system! You buy a ticket, get on the train, and once in a blue moon someone comes to check that you have a ticket. Try THAT out in New York City one day! (I've hear from Pigs that HBLR does have a similar system, but that's hardly the NYC Subway.)
:-) Andrew
My observations during the two trips I took to Buffalo included the following:
- Downtown Buffalo is still in dire straights and not just on Main Street. After 6 pm there is no one around, save a two block stretch on Chippawa unless there is a Sabres game.
- The Metro runs a two car train every 7 and a half minutes, but they are dead slow on the surface at 15 mph.
- The trains are well used despite the sad state of downtown.
- The trains are seemingly well maintained and free of litter
- The underground part is very fast with a balancing speed of 53 mph. The cars reach this seemingly quite easily and are probably capable of even more.
- I walked between Summer-Best and Utica underground stations and there was nothing up there that hinted at possible riders for a light rail line. Mostly underused industrial space.
Once again, if anyone can provide a line description and a brief history for this page:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/buffalo/
Please send it to Dave.
-Rob
When I was there, I always thought the new downtown Buffalo Main St. area was clean, pristine, and eerily quiet. It looked like a lifesize toy downtown area, like one of those Sesame Street foldup street scenes. On weekends, especially Sunday, there was nobody arround. Nobody. Deeeeaaad Calm.
Really the Buffalo metro area is like most other medium sized metro areas in the midwest (which is really what Buffalo and Western New York are) and the USA at large in that the inner city is all but forgotten. Most people who have a choice in the matter live, work, and shop entirely within the outlying suburban areas, such as Amherst, Cheektowaga, Tonowanda, Depew, Williamsville, etc.
Still, I always found the subway/light rail to be useful, especially since for most of my time in Buffalo I didn't have a car. I usually used the Exchange St. station rather than Depew for Amtrak home to New York since I was able to reach it. I also used it for other places such as the Albright Knox art gallery (transfer to a bus necessary, or a fairly long walk) the Record Theatre store near Delvan College station (which then had a large ammount of vinyl still available) and just downtown, to do what shopping I could or jut to escape from campus for a while.
:-) Andrew
Those photos were really good, especially that first dusk shot under the bridge. How do you get those good shots in low light, at dusk and in the tunnels?
Mark
The night shot and the station shot were time exposed and required a tripod.
I think the station was 7 seconds and the outside shot was 6 seconds with 64 speed film.
- Rob
Numerous threads here have dealt with transit and economic devcelopment.
One of the problems in developing good retail properties, like supermarkets, in depressed neighborhoods has been the fear spread by owners of bodegas, motivated by their realization that they can't match prices with a supermarket.
But by increasing the size of the whole pie, new developments can make a positive difference.
Look at the article whose URL appears here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/12/nyregion/12SPRI.html
Numerous threads here have dealt with transit and economic devcelopment.
One of the problems in developing good retail properties, like supermarkets, in depressed neighborhoods has been the fear spread by owners of bodegas, motivated by their realization that they can't match prices with a supermarket.
But by increasing the size of the whole pie, new developments can make a positive difference.
Christ Almighty, what a sickening article. To think it took almost a decade to build a #@^%&@ supermarket due to "neighborhood opposition!!! I swear, out of NYC's eight million people, there might be a couple thousand with I.Q. scores over 75 ... no, probably not. No wonder the Sunbelt has been grinding New York's face in the dirt for years.
What's the point of using the article as a pretext to insult the intelligence of New Yorkers? Who's to say this stuff doesn't happen in other cities?
What's the point of using the article as a pretext to insult the intelligence of New Yorkers? Who's to say this stuff doesn't happen in other cities?
Opposition to large projects can be found anywhere, of course. But only in New York will something as ridiculous as this occur. We're talking about a supermarket, not some huge subdivision, and almost a decade's delay. Oh, and the motivation behind the opposition - "protecting" some ten-rate crappy little stores - is another only-in-NYC thing.
No wonder the Sunbelt has been grinding New York's face in the dirt for years.
It's because the sunbelt got sick of being down there alone.
International Rigging of Alameda, CA, has been hired to fix the toppled Trenton-Camden light rail line's bridge over Rancocas Creek, as reported in today's Courier-Post. The company will take "two to three months" to devise a plan, at which time a guesstimate can be made as to a timeframe for fixing it.
April 5 photo; unchanged as of May 12.
If someone visiting NYC asked you where they could get a copy of The Map, could you tell them "any token booth"? Is each booth usually well stocked?
If someone asked "where can I get the very latest The Map?" what would you say?
Most token booths have the map but they won't give you more than one and they aren't always the most recent. I often get them at the Transit Museum Shop at Grand Central.
Are they free at the Transit Museum Shop? Will they give you more than one?
My Babylon LIRR station is still giving out May 2000. The LIRR considers anything after 1834 "updated". ;-)
They are free and you can take more than one. They also have the 5 bus maps and the international version of "The Map".
They're in a brochure case, one doesn't have to ask a person to give one to you.
The problem with all maps/brochures is that they appear one month later than they're supposed to. For example, I saw the new schedule (Spr. 2001) for the MetroCard Bus and Van on Friday, the beginning days of May. It's supposed to cover April, May, and June 2001. How are you supposed to know where to find the bus in April when the schedule comes out in May?
OK, the MetroCard Bus and Van are not such a big problem for myself, since I use the MVM's. Then again, 2 weeks ago I saw the new bus schedules "Effective April 2001." And, the latest subway schedules I can find in the racks are dated either Spring or November 2000.
What's up here?
If the visitor arrives at JFK Airport, the Howard Beach subway station is well stocked with "The Map" PLUS bus maps from all five boroughs, as well as miscellaneous brochures and schedules. They are in a rack, so one can help him/herself.
A month ago I spotted racks with the international edition of The Map and the Manhattan bus map -- I don't know if they were up-to-date -- at a AAA office upstate (many hours upstate -- no question here). I was a little bit surprised.
I would like to know where did this expression originate from? I thought subways were made from steel, I heard this expression was used years ago, but today I heard two women talking about riding the Iron Horse, I knew they meant subway. Thank You
The expression "Iron Horse" was supposed to have been coined by Native Americans as the railroads began to cross the country. Actually it was likely coined by some hollywood script writer from an old Sterling Hayden film.
"Iron Horse " means a locomotive. Several sources give the origin about 1840, which goes back to some of the earliest days of railroading, and in those days locos were made of iron.
The term is a nod to how important horses were to everyday transportation. Early autos were called "horseless carriages."
"Iron Horse " means a locomotive. Several sources give the origin about 1840.
Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary gives that exact definition and date. I still say it came from some old cowboys vs indians movie.
>>> I still say it came from some old cowboys vs indians movie. <<<
The term was certainly popularized by the 1924 John Ford silent epic (133 minutes) of the building of the transcontinental railroad, titled "The Iron Horse," which gives it a western flavor, but I think it really dates back to those original small locomotives that pulled a short string of what looked like stagecoaches on rails.
Tom
Some of the early passenger cars looked like a cross between a stagecoach, a covered wagon, and a boat.
And many of the railways were originally horse-powered. It's still more efficient to have a horse pulling a cart on rails than it is for a horse to be pulling a cart on the ground.
As engine technology advanced, engines replaced horses.
>I heard this expression was used years ago, but today I heard two women
> talking about riding the Iron Horse, I knew they meant subway.
Don't be too certain >:)
As for the term, no clue where it came from, but years ago everything was made from iron until largescale steel production started happening. It normally meant railroads (as in the big "real" ones), I've never heard it applied to subways before.
I've heard it also used for motorcycles, but then, Harley's ad literature was always a bit weird. Seems to fit better for a bike, if you forget that they're made of aluminum and steel now, not iron....
Why no honoree mention of Lou Gerig?
Recently, someone posted the list of the signs that can be displayed on the R32, and on most cars with roll signs, does anybody have the exact lettering of all the signs that can be displayed on the TA's typical R44/46? Any info would be appreciated.
If you look back a few days, this excat topic was discussed. There are 1,040 different sign settings on the R-44/R-46 electronic side signs. In addition, there is code 9998 & 9999 which are diagnostic test codes. The list is roughly 40 printed pages. I do not have the time to scan them and I'd really rather not burn out a copy machine making a set for everyone who thinks they might want one (not to mention the postage).
Someone once posted the entire list. I don't know when or the post number. Any help?
I believe it was a partial list. I saved them locally before they were shipped to the archives, where they currently reside. I'll see what I can do.
Thanks anything would be appreciated.
FDNY put a list up last year with the readings.
I put everything in a table, but I forgot the message number.
So, here are the message numbers for FDNY's posts:
119625
120358
120361
120364
120423
Here's some more he put up before he put the above up.
118937
If anyone has the printed list and a scanner, or if you have the complete list in a computer file, could you please scan the pages (not if it's in a computer file), and put a ZIP file containing those scans in my I-drive dropbox at http://www.idrive.com/r36_9346 so we could all get this mystery revealed?
Thanks a lot!!! Very helpful.
Didnt I ask this before?
Since the '70's, I have seen just about every type of rolling stock on every BMT-IND line with a few exceptions. Can anybody out there satisfy my curiousity if you have ever seen the following in regular service:
R 27-30, R-40m-42, R-46 on the "A" line.
R-46 on the "B"
Anything but R1-9 in the "KK"
Anything but R 16, 27-30 on the "EE"
R-44 or 46 on the old Bway "QB"
I wonder if after the R-143's replace the current "L" roster, will those R-40m-42's possibly create some extra "C" trains for the West Siders and Brooklyners who don't want to pack into the at-capacity "A" express trains.
Tony
"R-46 on the "A" line."
Yes, I saw them running 20 years ago dutring the Hockwell HPT-2 cracked truck fiasco. I believe they were running on R-44 trucks and the R-44s were OOS.
Bill "Newkirk"
When they were brand new, R42 cars 4584 to 4695 were assigned to the A/AA/B..........I have seen slides of R42's on the KK............I never saw an R27/30 on the EE. On that line, I saw R1/9, R16, R38, R40 slants (signs blanked) and R40M.
Any feedback from anybody about the #2 being a peak direction Bronx express in the Bronx now?? Is there a significant time savings?? Are the crowding patterns any different now on the #2 and 5 services??
Or is it all a mess now? Tony
The difference between express and local service between 149/3rd Ave and E.180 St is a whopping 3 minutes. If they could switch the White Plains trains to the express and the Dyre trains to the local, it might increase to about 4.5 to 5 minutes due to less congestion at E.180 St.
I agree. Trains from White Plains Rd - #2 trains that is - should be the expresses and Dyre Avenue service should be local. I heard the TA was going to switch the 5 and 2 during rush hours. They did it for one day and then went back to the old pattern after Assemblyman Jeff "the jerk" Klein pressured the TA to change it back, playing the race card. Politics is what keeps the 2/5 rush hour service in the Bronx as bad as it is.
FWIW, the Bronx-bound 2 is running express this weekend from E180 to 241.
Express running is better psychologically (yes I like it too) but if you have a delay of a few minutes you lose the benefit; so eliminating crossover moves with trains waiting for each other makes up for the time lost when SOME passengers have to ride a local. OTOH some gain, some lose. But the loss is minor. Long term benefits are greater.
But somebody who doesn't or won't understand can derail the best plans.
question : has the express tracks on the # 2 north of where it splits off from the # 5 finally been repaired ???
I rode the express track north of E180 today. In other words: yes, it's been repaired. (I never knew it was in need of repair.)
I don't think anyone's proposing express service north of E180 on a regular basis, though.
How much does it cost to rebuild to two track station to a three track express station?
That is what E241st need for a express to run North of E18oth street.
Frank D
And that's exactly what Klein did. He torpedoed a plan that had long-term benefits. I doubt that he understood that the 5 crosses in front of the 2, slowing it down even more. All he cared about was his precious neighborhood losing its express service. The Dyre Avenue line is already a high-speed line with just five stations. And #5 trains also get to bypass the South Bronx stops during rush hours and goes express through all of Manhattan and Brooklyn. On the other hand, the White Plains Road has ten stops that are very close together. Number 2 trains must make all those stops, plus all the south Bronx stops plus some more close-together stops in Harlem before finally going express. Then the 2 goes back to being local in Brooklyn again. Running #2 trains express in the south Bronx would have sped up a very slow rush-hour run through the Bronx and upper Manhattan. And Jeff Klein wrecked that plan!
Trains from White Plains Rd - #2 trains that is - should be the expresses and Dyre Avenue service should be local. I heard the TA was going to switch the 5 and 2 during rush hours. They did it for one day and then went back to the old pattern after Assemblyman Jeff "the jerk" Klein pressured the TA to change it back, playing the race card. Politics is what keeps the 2/5 rush hour service in the Bronx as bad as it is.
You are forgetting that alternate #5 trains originate at 238th St during the rush hour. The TA plan was to run these #5 trains and all the #2's as expresses and only the #5's originating from Dyre to run as locals.
The services are approximately as follows: 25% for Dyre Ave; 50% for #2's for 241st St and 25% for #5's for 238th St. Passenger demand is as follows: 47% between 180th and 241st; 20% between 180th and Dyre; 33% between Third Ave and 180th. Destination demand is approximately equal between East Side and West Side service. So, 50% of the service, the #2's carry 56.5% of the passengers; 25% of the service, the 238th St #5's, carry 23.5% of the passengers and the remaining 25% of the service, the Dyre Ave #5's, carry 20% of the passengers.
The proposed plan would have had the 75% of the service, all trains from 241st and 238th, carrying 47% of the passengers and 25% of the trains, those from Dyre carrying 53% of the passengers.
Assemblyman Klein should be applauded for stopping such a poorly analyzed plan.
No, actually I'm well aware that there are #5 trains that originate from Nereid Avenue. White Plains Road is my home line. I hate it because it is so freaking slow. What I wanted to see was an excruciatingly slow #2 train sped up and that almost happened. As for the #5's that originated from Nereid, yes, those should also have run local along with the 5's from Dyre. I guess the TA's logic for keeping the Nereid 5's express was that with the parallel #6 line from Simpson to 3rd Avenue there would have still been enough service for people from the south Bronx to Manhattan in rush hours.
With all 5 trains local and all 2 trains express during rush hours, the new plan would have made terrfic sense. But when has the TA ever done anything that made sense? OK, I'm wrong for blaming Assemblyman Klein completely. But I still believe that 2/5 rush hour service sucks big time the way it is now and needs to be fixed.
One major reason for problems is the 75%-25% service split between the Dyre Ave and White Plains Rd brances. The TA does nothing to correct the timing imbalance, when the service split becomes 50/50 south of 180th St. This results in unequal headways and further delays due to unequal loading and merging problems at the Jackson Ave and 138th St switches.
Consider an example with 24 tph: 12 tph on the #2; 6 tph each on the #5 from Dyre and 238th St. This places 18 tph on the White Plains Rd branch. Uniform headways implies that these trains should have 3:20 headways. The Dyre Ave trains have a 10 minute headway. The 24 tph example is chosen because it is close to the present situation and the numbers work out reasonably evenly. Substitution of the actual figures does not materially change the illustrated problem.
When trains leave 180th St, they are evenly balanced between between local and express at 12 tph. This implies a 5 minute headway for each. Locals arrive at 180th at: 0:00; 3:20; 10:00; 13:20; etc. The gap at 6:40 is the result of the #5. They must leave 180th at: 0:00; 5:00; 10:00; 15:00; etc. This means that every other local should be held at 180th for 1:40. They are not. The result is that local service south of 180th is bunched up with resulting switching delays at the merge between Jackson and Third Ave. The expresses can arrive at 5 minute intervals: 1:40(D); 6:40(W); 11:40(D); 16:40(W); etc. There is no need to even out the schedule at 180th, providing that the dispatchers' clocks at Dyre and 241st are synchronized.
There are better scheduling solutions that balance supply to passenger demand, provide uniform headways, reduce the potential for switching conflicts and avoid lengthy schedule adjustments at 180th St. Some of these solutions even requires fewer trainsets. Alas, the TA's proposed changes from a year ago was not one of these solutions.
Using 24 TPH (12 West side; 12 East Side) as follows:
Trains leave Dyre every 10 minutes starting at 4m40 sec;
#5 Trains leave 238St every 10 minutes starting at 7m40sec;
#2 Trains leave white Plains at peculiar intervals to allow for even spacing on most of White Plains line - 00, 3m20s;10m;13m30s; 20m; 23m30s;etc.
All 5 trains arrive and depart E.180 St at same time.
Every other 2 train, beginning with WP Departure 3m20s, is held at E.180 St for 1m40s to even out local headway south of E.180 St.
Running times as follows: White Plains - E.180 St -- 14 minutes; Dyre - E.180 St --11 minutes; 238 St - E.180 St --13 minutes; E.180 St --149/GC express --13 minutes; E.180 St - 149/GC local-- 15 minutes.
Based on your scenario and running times from the timetable (and the basic assumptions that there are no break-downs and no delays due to passengers) - 12 locals and 12 expresses evenly spaced south of E.180 St (locals every 5 minutes; expresses every 5 minutes), EVERY 5 train arrives at the switch S of Jackson Ave 20 SECONDS before a 2 train. This will cause EVERY 2 train to be delayed at Jackson Ave for at least 1 minute, while the 5 clears the area and the switch is reset.
And there have been too many times where that's happened to my 2 train. It will be at Jackson and it will be held there until the 5 clears the area. Not a pleasant experience sitting there at Jackson, especially when it's windy and cold and the doors are left open for the people in the cars to freeze.
The running times for the locals and expresses between E 180th and 149th St are quite variable, according to the schedule on the MTA website.
Consider the #2 local. The time varies from 15 minutes between 12:17 am and 4:57 am to 11 minutes at 8:44 am. Most of the daytime trains opt for 13 minutes.
The #5 is even more curious. Local service between these two points varies from 12 and 14 minutes. The express times vary between 8 minutes at 6:35 and 14 minutes at 8:20. A closer look reveals that the scheduled running times displayed on the MTA site indicates that the #5's from Dyre are running local while only the #5's from E 238th are running express. The last time I checked, the 180th St tower was not aware of this because they sent all #5's down the express track.
I assumed 8 minutes travel time for the express and 13 minutes for the local. The former figure represents the typical express time for E 238th St #5's. The latter is midway between 12 and 14, which was the rush hour range.
The table snipit below shows how the trains arrive at 149th under these assumptions. I've taken the trouble to order them by their arrival time at 149th. While these headways are not even, there is adequate time for switching operations at both E 180th and at Jackson.
Table 2 shows how to make the headways even for after the merge. All that is required is that the Dyre Ave trains be held at E 180th for 50 seconds. A similar technique can be used for any arbitrary combination of different running times between 180th and Third Ave.
I did not think that the unequal headways at 149th St were particularly significant because the #2 and #5 diverge at that point. The headways would be equalized when the #2's were merged with the #3's and the #5's with the #4's at the next station or two. The unequal headways would occur in only two stations - Third Ave and 149th St. The merge at Jackson permits sufficient cushion for a system that can accomodate 40 tph.
The current schedule does not the best utilization of resources. The planned delay at 180th for alternate #2's is simply the technique required to implement the current routing with a reasonable chance for avoiding unplanned delays en route.
Table 1
Table 2
TypeArr 180Dep 180Arr 149
Arr 180Dep 180Arr 149
5(D)01:4001:4009:40
01:4002:3010:30
200:0000:0013:00
00:0000:0013:00
5(W)06:4006:4014:40
06:4007:3015:30
203:2005:0018:00
03:2005:0018:00
5(D)11:4011:4019:40
11:4012:3020:30
Click here
This site has been linked here before. I'm sure that those among us who wish to view it have already bookmarked it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
View the other Absurd suff on that page
Many of these "complaints" have been fixed, for example:
There are now four three-car Green Line trolleys during peak hours (this maxes out available cars and operators)
Haymarket station has been completely remodeled
With the "service guarantee," even pass-holders can get refunds for late/missing trips.
The Green Line boarding platforms on the surface lines are in the process of being updated to accomodate the low-floor Type-8s.
The Type-8s have finally been placed back in service. Hopefully they'll stay on (or close) to the track now, some three years and four months after the fist one arrived on the property!
I will admit that there continue to be many outdates signs, especially on the Green Line. There's one at North Station inbound telling riders that for Riverside service, one should board any car and change at Goverment Center. Thing is, D/Riverside cars have served North Station for a number of years now.
My favorite continues to be collectors (MBTA-speak for station agents/token booth clerks) who think they have the right to park their personal cars on the sidewalk next to the subway kiosk where they're assigned, made "legitimate" by putting a T EMERGENCY placard on their windshield. So, selling tokens is an emergency? Fortunately there have been enough complaints recently this is happening less frequently.
Sorry Todd. I've got to take exception to the parking issue. Some of those cars are inspectors or extra station help as well as collectors. They are reporting to work before service begins or leaving after service ends. You can't ride the first or last train with those schedules.
My truck has been on the bricks at Gov Ctr when I had to work as extra station help 'til 1:00a. You might see it at North Station as they now have a 5:00a flagging piece sometimes. That one will soon end as they are going to open the rest of the Orange Line station within a month or so.
BTW, the emergency placard IS the official way of identifying a T employee whether or not it is an emergency. The other way is a hat on the dash.
Dick, as a matter of fact - you'll see a picture of the Govt Center
station parkers in today's Boston Globe on page B-2 in the Starts &
Stops column.
I have no problem with early/late service personnel or emergencies.
But at my station on the Red Line, collectors who work the day shift
park on the sidewalk. I've seen them get in and out of their cars!
On a positive note, good news about opening the rest of the North Station Orange Line station. That should ease the commuter pedestrial flow quite a bit.
On the other hand, parking on bus stops is a REAL problem. At Adams and Minot in Dorchester there is a bus stop which is parked upon until 10:00 PM daily except Sunday. I have never seen a ticket issued!
The possible violations at this one location:
BUS STOP
FIRE HYDRANT
CORNER
CROSSWALK
HANDICAPPED RAMP
DOUBLE PARKING !!!
Somewhere in the city ordinances there must be a line which says:
"No vehicle shall be cited for any parking violation within 50 feet of a Package (Liquor) Store, except when blocking a loading zone for delivery to said store."
Whats the difference between a R27/30/30A?
"Whats the difference between a R27/30/30A?"
These are the few items I've noticed. Others will add theirs.
1) Car numbers: R-27 8020-8249 1960-61 230 cars
R-30 8250-8351 1961-62 260 cars
Total 550 cars R-30A 8352-8411 1961 60 cars
Built by St.Louis Car Co, Entered service on Brighton Local on November 15,1960. Replaced 25 SIRT, 23 borrowed Low-V, 25 Multi section cars (equal to 75 BMT Standards) and 388 BMT Standards. Total of 536 cars. First BMT cars to to incorporate letter route codes, married pairs concept and fiberglass bench seats. Painted olive drab on exterior and grey-blue on the interior.
2)Door engines. Too bad they are not in service for you distiguish this. But I remember that the R-27s had door engines that made doors open and close slower than the R-30 & 30As. They also made a "whirring" sound too. The R-30/30ASs were quieter and faster.
3)Center pole escustheon (sp?) This is a stainless steel collar on the pole where it meets the ceiling. The R-27s were curved, like the R-26/28 Redbirds and the R-30/30As were straight like the R-29 to 42s.
4)Front route signs. This may be disputed, but when the R-27s were new, the route letter was followed underneath with either (ex. Bway/Sea Beach, Bway/Brighton,Bway/West End etc). Photos I saw of R-30/30A'S just had N/Bway, Q/Bway, T/Bway etc. Is this correct ?
5) GE vs. Westinghouse. Of course there are the GE and Westinghouse cars. Someone may distinguish between the two.
Bill "Newkirk"
You forgot that the R27s were dead motors. Most of the R30s had life on the ammeter.
IIRC the Westinghouse and GE cars were a 50/50 split on all contracts R10 thru 40 except for the R-11. Could be mistaken. The R42 were all WH, think the R11 were too.
Funny I never noticed all the spotting features between the R27 and the R30. I dont remember that more R27's were dead...maybe toward the end when management figured they were next to go. (Except for late 60's early 70's when all types except the newest had many Bad orders.)
4)Front route signs. This may be disputed, but when the R-27s were new, the route letter was followed underneath with either (ex. Bway/Sea Beach, Bway/Brighton,Bway/West End etc). Photos I saw of R-30/30A'S just had N/Bway, Q/Bway, T/Bway etc. Is this correct ?
All of the R27/R30/R30A cars had the same front route signs initially.
They all had two lines of text (such as Bway/Brighton) under the letters N, Q, QB, QT, RR, and T.
-- Ed Sachs
The original RR, T, and TT signs had a single row subscript: RR/B'way-4th Ave.; T/B'way-West End; and TT/West End.
I'm listening to the radio and keep hearing about traffic horror stories. Let me ask you. Did the 4 train disappear? What's wrong with these idiots? Even the guy on the radio said, "Those trains are the best way to get around." Why do people insist on driving to these stadiums when subways go practically past 3rd base? Personally, I wouln't let someone pay me to watch a baseball game, but that's another story.
"Why do people insist on driving to these stadiums when subways go practically past 3rd base?"
Because the #4 & (D) trains don't pass through their suburban neighborhoods !!
Bill "Newkirk"
If they were smart, they'd park near a subway station and ride a few stops.
But these people are ill-informed and are mortally afraid of leaving their cars on the streets of (gasp!) The Bronx.
Pig: Watch it. You made a negative reference to the Bronx and some of the thought police are going to let you hear it. Remember me a few months ago? Actually there are numerous places to park near both ballparks that are safe, but why drive when you can ride the subway right to the ballpark escapes me. I wish we had that in Los Angeles where we have to crowd the freeways to get to a game. Oh well!
Did you read what pig wrote?
Pig "If they were smart, they'd park near a subway station and ride a few stops.
But these people are ill-informed and are mortally afraid of leaving their cars on the streets of (gasp!) The Bronx."
he didn't say anything negitve about the bronx he said people who were afriad of the bronx are ill-informed.
I have a better idea. Take the Yankee Clipper from the South St Seaport! It stops at 34th and 90sts along the way. A round trip costs $14.It lets you off roughly five miutes away from the stadium. You walk under the Deegan, go up some stairs, walk through that tube over the tracks and you're there. The boat leaves 30 minutes after the last out for the trip back. BTW, after you get off the boat, you walk over a track that isn't related to Metro North as far as I know.The track is located directly off the water with no third rail or overhead wires.Anyone know why the track is there? The roadbed looks identical to the E line from Jan Van Wyck-Parsons.
New York Waterway runs the boat in case anybody was wondering.
The Oak Point connector links the Hudson line with the Oak Point intermodal yard at 132nd Street. It can then connect to the NY Connecting RR (the line across the Hell Gate).
Thanks for the info.
It has been several years ago that I read an article where the Metro North Hudson Line might have gotten a stop at Yankee Stadium, an excellent idea but "security concerns" were brought up. Pity. Seems I've read about it on Subtalk lately. ha s the idea been revived? An idea whose time is long overdue.
Wonder how the parking would be at a place like Woodlawn, let's say. I usually rode the trains when I worked any line but sometimes it was faster to drive because let's say from Cypress Hills to Woodlwan was around the horn by train and took forever. But where the hell to park...even 30 years ago.
A Metro-North Yankee Stadium stop is in the works...it's a good idea, and can give the folks in Westchester an option in traveling to games. The LIRR, after all, serves Shea...
Highbridge is the safest place in NY on game day. According to NYPD, the only arrests they make is for ticket-scalping.
There was security when I got off the Yankee Clipper last Thursday.
"Why do people insist on driving to these stadiums when subways go practically past 3rd base? "
Because New York doesn't have park n rides at subway stations. A park allows people to drive to the subway then take the train from their of course as ticket prices go up less people will want to take the subway.
"Why do people insist on driving to these stadiums when subways go practically past 3rd base?"
I agree with you, here..because I do take the subway to Yankee Stadium. The only thing I can say in defense of the drivers is that if you are claustrophobic (which I am not), then maybe they are better off driving...because the 4, B, and D lines do get jammed...including weekend day/night games.
This next part is off topic: Will any subtalkers be at the stadium next week as the bombers host the Boston "Red Sucks"? I am planning at being at all three games, and would love to meet up with any subtalkers. I'll be sitting in the tier reserved, probably between 2nd and 3rd base. -Nick
"because the 4, B, and D lines do get jammed...including weekend day/night games."
They can't be anymore jammed then the MBTA can it?
"the bombers host the Boston "Red Sucks"?"
Red Sox: First Place
Yanks: second place
Yankees Suck!!
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
May 12, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!
SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. This is our first chat. Subsequent chats may be held depending on this week's success. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic. Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! mIRC users, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE the chat this evening!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
SUB TALK LIVE
To Nite
In 2 Hours
Northbound electric NJT train near Newark has just lost tractive power and is incpacitated on track 2. Rescue engine from kearny yard is being sent to the scene. Passengers will be discharged t Newark to board PATH to NYC. Tune into 160.920 MHz for the latest!
-Dan
The weather is hot......catenary wire down ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Just like the stupid Kevin Bacon game, let's see if anything can be connected to the subway in six degrees or less!
1.Grass -> needs to be grown with fertilizer -> which is full of manure -> like people who drive solo in SUVs and not ride the -> subway
2. The Mafia -> has ememies -> that eventually end up sleeping with the fishes -> like the Redbirds will on the -> subway
3. Cable TV -> never works, so it needs to be fixed by -> the cable repairman -> who is always 3 hours late -> like the A train on the -> subway
4. Quantum Theory -> states that energy comes in "packets" -> like ketchup -> which can be found at Nathan's -> which is where every railfan seemingly eats while railfanning the -> subway
5. The Black Plague -> was cuased by rats with fleas -> which dogs can also get -> along with rabies -> that causes foaming at the mouth, which is what railfans do on the -> subway
Just like the stupid Kevin Bacon game, let's see if anything can be connected to the subway in six degrees or less!
1.Grass -> needs to be grown with fertilizer -> which is full of manure -> like people who drive solo in SUVs and not ride the -> subway
1. Bertrand Russell -> philosopher -> discussion of deep issues -> eternity -> time it takes to get a subway escalator repaired.
People have different memories of the "Banker's Specials" on the Brighton, and one reason is that the service changed in its final years. Here's what I've got:
May 28, 1959
There were four Brighton-Nassaus in the a.m., using 6-car AB trains. They departed Brighton Beach at 757, 813, 825 and 836, local to KH, then express to Nassau St. All but the 836 ran via H tracks to Chambers and terminated at Broad. The 836 ran via tunnel to Broad, dumped its passengers at Chambers, and returned light via Bridge and Sea Beach.
In the evening three specials departed Broad at 504, 514 and 521, ran NORTH to Chambers, then "H" tracks to DeKalb, express to Kings Highway, then local to CONEY ISLAND.
Feb. 10, 1964
Five specials ran in the a.m. using 6 car trains. Depart Brighton at 736, 748, 800, 812, 824, ran via TUNNEL to Broad and Chambers. The first became a gap train, the other four ran light via the "H" tracks, then reentered service as Brighton Expresses at DeKalb, ran to Brighton and laid up.
In the evening, three specials departed Chambers 457, 509 and 521, ran to Broad and via TUNNEL to Coney Island, then laid up.
These 1964 trains all operated as "A" trains on the Brighton Line, meaning they made skip-stops.
On the 1964 "Bankers Special" , I saw a photo at Sheepshead Bay or Kings Highway of a dirty olive drab R-27/30 signed up (M) Nassau St. Is this the one you're talking about ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, that's the one.
Why weren't these trains ever described on maps and schedules of that era?
Earlier maps, especially B of T and TA maps, did not list services in the detail current now, or in the detail that the BMT once did in its own service guides, especially services like the "Banker's Specials," which amounted to a few trains per weekday.
Part of the reason may be that these "special" services were rush hours lines that were well known to the people who used them but probably wouldn't be used by tourists or casual riders--those most likely to use a subway map.
Also remember that while public timetables are detailed and accurate now, they were virtually unknown 30+ years ago. The few station timetables that were issued from time to time were limited and hard to come by.
Many services did not make official maps and guides. A 1952 B of T Guide, for example, doesn't mention (among others) the Lexington Avenue Thru Express, the Bankers Specials, the variations of Culver service, or the Franklin Expresses on the weekends. It doesn't tell you that Brighton Express were not a full time service or that Brighton Locals ran Via Bridge nights and Sundays. Other service descriptions are sketchy or incomplete. For example, the Broadway Short Line schedule says the service between Canal Street and Atlantic Avenue. It doesn't mention that it also ran to Crescent Street and Canarsie. You get the idea.
We've gotten spoiled by "The Map" and detailed line timetables. They'll be a great source for future historians.
Thank you.
I learned the system initially from the maps, trying to visualize the various routes that I didn't know by inferring from what I did know. This way of learning the system made discoveries both anticipated and surprising at the same time. But I guess you're right. My first-hand experience with omissions on the map was the late night Rockaway round-robin service. Try being indecisive at Euclid Av at 2 am!!
Even "The Map" doesn't mention the #3 trains that start at 137th St. and Broadway in the morning rush hour.
And here it is for those who haven't seen it:
Hi guys, so to clarify, a typical Brighton schedule during the rush hours circa 1964-5 was as follows:
QT- Coney Island - Astoria via tunnel (Local)
Q- Coney Island - 57 St via Bridge (EXP)
M- via Brighton-Bridge-Nassau
Gee, I wonder why it was never indicated on the '64 map. I never even imagined that the "M" ventured beyond Metropolitan - Chambers until after 1972. So basically in the mid-60's, the "M" specials were using the South Side Bridge tracks until Chrystie St. opened.
That's interesting!!! Thanks, Tony
I remember quite well that from September 1965 until November 1967, in the morning rush the M ran northbound, on Track 2 at the Dekalb Av. Station. That means it ran via tunnel. The consists were exclusively R32 Brightliners. The origin was Coney Island, running express on the Brighton line from Kings Highway to Prospect Park. The destination Chambers St. was lit up in green.
The letter "M" was used for these specials only from 1960-67, and were rarely seen on cars. The M ran from Metropolitan to Broad St from 1967 to 1973.
They must have used the letter M prior to 1967 so that "Nassau St" would be displayed. They could have just as well displayed J.
Prior to Chrystie St., the only R units on the Eastern Division were the R-16s, and then they only had number sugns. Consequently what is now the M was the 10 (termianting at Chambers St.), and today's J was the 15.
There were deadheading R27/30/32 deadheading as TT's to ENY.
Did the R16 have signs for 1 and up ?
Joe: The R-16's had rollsings only for the Eastern Division services;ie 10,14,15 and 16.
Larry,RedbirdR33
But what about that R16 signed up for "2" when in RR service in 1968 ?
But what about that R16 signed up for "2" when in RR service in 1968 ?
Is that contention based on this photo of 6312?
There's something bogus about an R16 in Fourth Avenue service signed with a BMT number after Christie Street opened. Check out this photo of 6313 on the same line, same day.
Maybe the roll was installed for a fantrip. The roll could have come from an R11 or a set originally on R9s.
The "2" is probably an original. I have seen pictures of an R16 when new with the side south sign set to "95th St Frt Hmltn".
The RR without a subscript for line name is probably a quickie rollsign extension, like the R27's got for QJ and RJ. The R11 did not have BMT letters. Some R1's had BMT numbers but with line name under the number (i.e. 5 CULVER)
Most of the R16's quickly got a cardstock RR and an 95 STREET on the side sign early in 1968.
Paul...speaking of rollsigns, did the Multi's have only Eastern Division and El line front signs? I recall a picture of a fan trip run with Multi's that had CONEY ISLAND on the front. How about the Bluebird's?
Carl M.
The Bluebirds appear to have had destinations for the most of the system. I don't really know about the Multis. IIRC the Multis (and the Zephyr) had a rarity: metal roll signs--i.e., lightweight (alumninum?) signs on a sort of chain thingy so they could be changed remotely.
And that gizmo didn't work properly on the multis in their later years. Consequently, they often ran with incorrect markings. Luckily, they also had marker lights.
My first trip on the present day L route was in summer 1955 on a Multi which took me by surprise; I had been on D types but the Multi was a different creature from anything I knew.
I can remember seeing the metal signs at the end of the car...or section...I was in turning by themselves actually if working properly would have been by remote control. You remember right. I don't know the details of operation can however offer that the Multi's had no railfan window either, and were built with the intention of eventually running OPTO.
I believe the Green Hornet also had metal signs.
Carl M.
What is the headway for the A train from Broad Channel? It seems to take 20 minutes or more before the next one comes. Ditto for the S shuttle. Many people ride the train.
Must be LIRR genes.
"A" service into Manhattan has split service, half of Manhattan bound "A" service comes from Lefferts.
Exceptions are overnights, where all "A" service originates from Far Rockaway, and weekday rush hours, with service from Rockaway Park.
Rockaway Park service is blurred. It's only 5 from Rockaway Park in the AM and 5 to Rockaway Park in the PM.
The running times for the A vary depending on where you are and what time it is.
If you are at any station between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Blvd or Lefferts Blvd and Rockaway Boulevard, then you will wait a full 20 minutes between trains except during rush hours.
If you're fortunate enough to use stations between Rockaway Blvd and 207th Street, Manhattan; then you will wait between 6 to 10 minutes between trains except at night when you will wait 20 minutes between trains that operate between 207th Street, Manhattan and Far Rockaway only.
When you visit the transitalk web page and you are at the showroom site and you press the back button and type in nycsubway.org quickly it fades to the site and if you click on subtalk it will fade to that page. This only works with a 56K modem.
Probably some javascript working.
Anyone know what the name of the railroad that owned the tracks (mostly paved over by now) down by Furman Street near the waterfront, and where the tracks started and ended? I know they served the Brooklyn piers, but that's about it. There's a surviving carfloat as well.
www.forgotten-ny.com
According to what is on page 112 of "New York Harbor Railroads In Color" by Thomas R. Flagg, those tracks appear to be New York Dock Railway.
The northern end of the trackage (shown in the map illustration in the book) was just about at Fulton Street by the fireboat station, with one track curving around and dead ending at Columbia Heights & Doughty Street.
The south end of the "system" was in a warehouse building just soujth of here Joralemon Street intersects with BQE.
The carfloat, according to the map, is in line with Pierrepont Street.
Is it true...
That on one of the stops of the #7 there was a sign directing you on how to transfer to the 2nd Avenue El (razed in 1942) that survived into the 1970s? If so, does anyone have a photo of it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Is it true...
That on one of the stops of the #7 there was a sign directing you on how to transfer to the 2nd Avenue El (razed in 1942) that survived into the 1970s? If so, does anyone have a photo of it?
The sign was mentioned in Jim Dwyer's 1993 book "Subway Lives." He had been the transit reporter for New York Newsday and seems to have researched the book fairly well. I'd therefore be inclined to believe the story is true. Dunno about any pictures, however.
The last time I went by Hunterspoint (about a year ago) there was still a sign on the Queensbound stairway saying "To Corona and Astoria."
:-) Andrew
That sign has been covered up with a metal sign. I have a picture (10.5-07) of it before that happened, though.
I recall there was a stairway sign on the northeast corner of Roosevelt & 61 St. It was the IRT dark blue ceramic type, and did indeed advise passengers that a train at this station would let them get to South Ferry via the 2nd Ave el. (it may also have referenced the Queensboro bridge)
It came down during the first renovation of the 61 St - Woodside station, which I believe was in the early eighties. There was a subsequent renovation of both the LIRR and NYCT facilities in the mid-nineties, but the sign came down during the first one.
No idea what happened to it.
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Enjoyed a few fast train rides today. I took the train from Sea Cliff to Jamaica, which had ice-cold A/C. From Mineola to Jamaica the speed was incredible, we must've been doing 80mph or more from NHP to near Jamaica, the stations were a blur. Those DE30's are fast! Even switching tracks near FP interlocking the train was doing near 60mph.
Got offa t Jamaica and went downstairs for the E. Just missed one, and had to wait 12 minutes.
It was an R32 and what a ride! It was a pleasure to have E service this weekend. Once going express after Forest Hills, the T/O just wrapped it. The signals before Woodhaven were knocked down! The guy went full speed seconds before the red cleared.
The stations were a blur. After 74th we flew past 65th and went into the express tunnels with frightening speed.
And now for the extra treat. Due to construction the E going downtown ran express. That was a breeze. There was a time the E did run express on 8th ave, wasn't there?
Got off at W4th and went for Chinatown. It was still HOT today so I couldn't stay any longer than 45 minutes. I then took a D from Grand to Dekalb and an R68 N train pulled in. I took the N to C.I. The R68 was fast, and the ride on the Sea Beach wasn't bad either. We ran local and one guy complained when a Slant R40 B train whizzed by on the express "hey, the N should be express". Amen to that.
Going past the C.I. yard was nice as usual, and we pulled into Stillwell for a quick turn around. We left less than 5 minutes after we pulled in. Manhattan bound N trains run express on the B. Now there wasn't too much speed, but we did get up some steam around 62nd street (before and after). I stayed on the N till WTC then got off and walked over to the E. It was an R46 E, pretty good ride on Queens Blvd once again. But here's a surprise. I saw an F running on the A line from Chambers to Canal. Fortunately they let us go first. I guess there was a problem and the F went via the A/C to W4th. This was around 3pm.
Other notes of interest. They are doing major work around 8th ave and also near Kings Parkway on the Sea Beach. Bridge work over the Manhattan bound tracks near 8th ave and a pile of dirt on flatbed near Kings Hwy on the M/B track. I guess that's the reason for no M/B Sea Beach service.
Also the signals look different on the B West End line. The actual lights are smaller and the signal looks dwarfed. However I see they are replacing them. So why are the signals on the West End different?
And at Jamaica you can see the pillars for airtrain in the SW corner of the area.
Took my E train to Jamaica and got a train to Greenvale. No real speed between Jamaica and MIneola, but we did run on time. And that train was ice cold. The A/C in the bi-level coaches is great!
And one more note, going to Jamaica I was in the front car of the bi-level train and you can hear the ASC electronic beep from the cab around Jamaica. I see the bi-levels don't feature the bell.
All in all a great railfanning day. The Sea Beach was real nice. But it would be even nicer if we ran express and over the Manny B.
We must have passed each other somewhere out there today, I was out railfanning in Brooklyn from 1 PM to 4 PM approximately. Yes there were two Slant R40s out on the "B" today, one of them was especially fast. It read (north motor) 4322-23, 4316-17, 4208-09, 4346-47, and 4311-10 (south motor). We waited four Hippos at 36th Street for this Slant to show and when it did, it did not disappoint. We settled in at 4310's capacious (reverse) railfan window and watched where we came from.
wayne
4310-11 THE COWBOY WAY Woody Harrelson
4208-09 GHOST Patrick Swayze/Demi Moore
Last week, the GO listing on the MTA web page did indicate that the Queens-bound F would be running via the A from Jay to W4 this weekend. As of Friday's update, it's not listed anymore, but the removal would appear to be in error.
But what's with the Manhattan-bound B running express on the Sea Beach? That isn't and wasn't listed at all. It also doesn't make sense for the B to run express via Sea Beach and the N to run express via West End.
I didn't see any Manhattan bound B trains on the Sea Beach, they were running on the B line. My N train passed one on the express track.
As far as the F running on the A from Jay to W4th, I could swear a saw an F going to Manhattan at Bway Lafeyette today. I saw no notices about F diverions, and did not hear any announcements.
My guess is that F was rerouted due to some other problem (BIE, switch problem,etc).
I misunderstood. I thought you said a B passed your Brooklyn-bound N.
I can't speak for Saturday, but today (Sunday), the Manhattan-bound F was, indeed, running on the A (I'm not sure if it was local or express -- probably local) from Jay to W4, as per the GO. There were few signs and I heard no announcements; after a very long wait at East Broadway, I had some difficulty convincing a group of passengers not to wait even longer for a train that wouldn't arrive until the following morning.
The F has to be on the 8th Ave. local track in order to switch back to the 6th Ave. line south of W. 4th St. It switches to the local track at Canal St. Not sure if it stops at Spring St.; I would assume it does.
Yes, for years the E ran express in Manhattan during rush hours. And for a time during rush hours in the early 70s it used the lower level at 42nd St.
Whilst out on the road today we ran into the following cars which were sorely lacking air conditioning:
From the Eastern Division: R42 #4909 (L) - and her mate #4908.
From 207th Street: R44 #5280 (A) - unbearable!
From Jamaica-Yard: R32 Phase I #3900 (E)- Stifling! (his mate was OK, in fact she was very nicely cooled)
I will be starting my monthly jaunts again and will report any overheated cars here on this board.
wayne
Hopefully the looming electric power crisis does not cut into the air conditioning on the trains, as this will harm many people who ride the system on a daily basis.
4909 ran on the J last summer and was a rolling oven even then! Damned CI R42's and their wimpy AC. I'd rather ride an R30 with functioning fans and openable windows.
Maybe something's really wrong with the A/C and they CAN'T fix it.
wayne
I noticed that about the Jamaica R32's on the E last summer. Same hot cars all the time. Maybe they would be repaired, but a few days later hot again. There are 2 a/c units in each car. Often times one blows warm or hot air while the other end blows cold. That causes a problem. Sometimes the cars just can't handle the load. Last summer on occasion I took E trains to Jamaica Yard after my regular tour of duty. A car which was hot or not so cool on the road was functioning fine by the time I laid it up on a track in the yard becasue the doors remained closed and the a/c was not working under extreme load. You guessed it: the car inspectors in the yard would find no defect and it would be back on the road the next morning.
Maybe the inspectors need to start checking the units before they go out of service at Continental Ave. instead of in the yard.
Subway-buff and myself shook off the doldrums and hit the irons today, spending about 6 hours out on the road. It was an interesting ride and we saw some interesting stuff.
New tile matching the old at Grand and De Kalb on the Canarsie line.
New tablets at 14th & 8th, similar to those at Nostrand Avneue IND.
The 1970s tile is just about gone from the Broadway line, thank God.
A nice Railfan run on the "A" from 59-125 courtesy of R38 #4027.
There is a flock of Pigeons (FILTHY, may I add) living in the 168th Street IRT station and they have completely encrusted some of those large globe fixtures, especially on the bridges. These are as bold as brass, they walk right up to you. Last year there were only one or two... now there seems to be a whole community of them
We ran a G.O. on the Northbound "N" where we ran express via the "B". I took some pictures from the front window of R32 #3362 as we approached and left 9th Avenue. Why they don't institute this service is a mystery to me; it was a good express run. They're tearing up the Kings Highway bridge over the Sea Beach, making a royal mess of things so the N/B "N" goes over the "B" line.
Coney Island-Stillwell is starting to show signs of overhaul and renovation. The worst is yet to come.
There were two sets of Slants on the "B" today, and in one consist the first time I've ever seen this - both the GHOST (4208-4209) and THE COWBOY WAY (4310-4311) in the same train. This time #4310 was the south motor. I timed the N/B run from West 4 to 34th - North Motor #4322 did it in 2:14. Not bad. He did 30 or so on the curve north of Grand and a few people lost their balance.
I took a picture of The Leak at Sutphin Boulevard/Archer - why doesn't somebody fix this? It wasn't leaking today (it wasn't raining at the time) but when it rains, it pours! The drain into which that silly hose leads can't handle the amount of water that comes in and it winds up overflowing back through the floor of the mezzanine and out the overhang ceiling.
We had fun! Got to get out there and rail fan more often.
wayne
My record time on a post-mod Slant-40 from 34th to W. 4th is 2 minutes, two seconds. That's from the first point of power start-up to wheels stopped.
Damn, that had to be one fast Slant there! I would estimate that to be going at or over 50 MPH.
Crossing the Manhattan Bridge was a death-march today; even Slants have to obey grade timers. This Slant was also VERY frisky in the exprss run up Fourth Avenue, Brooklyn, dusting two "Nevers" (hippopotami both) and one "Rarely" (1975 stock) that had bunched up in the local track.
wayne
I was on one of those N's. The Sea Beach deserves better treatment, it should run express on weekends!
Hey, Wayne, did you hear that patented, deep-throated rumble the slants are famous for as they gather speed? IIRC that N train of R-32s we took last fall got a good head of steam up 4th Ave. as well. Its speedometer hit 42-43 before Pacific St.
Who knows - Sutphin-Archer may be a prime candidate for the why-I-want-to-look-like-Chambers St. award.
The Slants were full of their patented motor sounds, and 4310s wheels were quite "moosical" esp. around De Kalb Avenue.
As for Sutphin, I don't know if it will get as far as Chambers, Steve; but The Leak is a pretty strange-looking thing. It has ruined a section of the acoustic ceiling. It is found at the foot of the west stairs of the upper level. A tarpaulin has been affixed by hooks and eyelets to the ceiling. A hose is then attached to it, which is supposed to catch water and send it to a drain in the mezzanine. Unfortunately this drain is clogged up and the water won't drain properly. It backs up, floods the floor by the windows and then leaks back down to platform level, right where people step off the escalator. How do you spell LAWSUIT?
wayne
Time to break out the plungers and Liquid Plumber.
Steve: Here is The Leak. Lovely!
wayne
Looks like the picture leaked too. :)
No, that's what it looks like! The pattern on the tarpaulin is rust, I believe.
wayne
Ah ... hadn't noticed that you had put it on geocities. With those guys, you have to put the link in print here - they don't allow tags to link a picture or to their site from within a web page (especially here) ... train dude published a few pictures about a week or two ago and you couldn't get there from the links. You had to type it in up top to get to the goodies.
Just did that and voila! Picture ... the link is at:
http://www.geocities.com/slant_40/the_leak.jpg
If the above doesn't go there, copy the link and then paste it in up top and finally the picture is visible as originally intended by the artist. :)
Hmmmm....a Freudian would have a field day doing a Rorschach test with that pattern.
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if GM would've made trains for NYCT. many would think since its GM its gonna be crappy or they would be hotrods. or maybe they could be very reliable. who knows. i think if they were to make them, they would hold up. thats if GM would extend their market into electric Rapid transit. they would also be attractive because they would be the lowest bidder. what are your opinions?
If they would be as good as the Chevrolet Citation that our family used to have in the early 1980s (the first, last and only GM vehicle our family has bought) then I suspect that they would make whatever the worst piece of unreliable junk is currently running on New York's subway system look like a triumph of state of the art subway technology.
On the other hand, it they would be as good as their New Look buses, they'd be really good trains.
-Robert King
You gotta be kidding!! GM was making steps to kill rail transit and railroad passenger trains as early as 1923. They systematically destroyed every method of competition. GM (and its agents and co-companies) destroyed hundreds of rail competitors from 1923 on. And, who do you think was the real originator of the Interstate Highway System?
And, who do you think was the real originator of the Interstate Highway System?
Are you implying that maybe it wasn't a coincidence that the Interstate Highway System was sold to us as a defense project when Charlie Wilson (GM's CEO) was Secretary of Defense?
implying?? au contraire!!!
Stating as a fact. I know my transportation history!!!
So if it weren't for GM, NYC would have it's IND second system (with no interstates we'd have fewer cars and more desire for rapid transit) and long distance rail travel would be fast, cheap and comfortable?
Excuse me while I proceed back in time for a quick assassination.
Dan
Let's also not forget how GM exterminated every trolley system in the US by selling their Diesel Buses below cost. Think how much cleaner our air would have been as well as the lesser congestion on our roads.
True, but the real shocker was that GM (Of Canada) actually built Fishbowl trolleybuses (and that would be counterproductive to GM's agenda).
It's true too - I remember those buses from when we had a few leased from ETS during the last days of the electric bus system.
-Robert King
Are you implying that maybe it wasn't a coincidence that the Interstate Highway System was sold to us as a defense project when Charlie Wilson (GM's CEO) was Secretary of Defense?
According to what I've heard, it was Eisenhower himself who proposed the Interstate system as a defense improvement. As a young officer just before World War I, he had lead a coast-to-coast convoy of military vehicles, in a test to see if it could be done, and decades later when he became president he still remembered the inadequate roads in much of the country and how they had made the journey into a huge ordeal. Eisenhower also had much more recent memories from World War II, when the nascent autobahn system gave the German army a big advantage at several times.
I'm not denying that ex-GM CEO Wilson might have helped influence Eisenhower, but his input, whatever it was, probably wasn't decisive.
Geez I forgot all about Charles Wilson (Ike's sec. of defense)so have never made the connection. The story about GM sabotaging trolley lines is a sad scene; I don't plan on ever having another GMC or Chevy light truck but OTOH have always loved Buicks.
Actually my reply is to cover several posts on this matter.
But I will give GM some credit. Even if I hated them for dieseliztion and bustitution, both of which would have happened anyway, but it did happen to corner the market in both cases.
GM-EMD's Sd40-2 was the best freight locomotive ever made; maybe some newer models will prove otherwise in due time. But they were one good locomotive even if they were outageously noisy in the cabs, but then all EMD were unp to the 90's. The Gp 7/9 was the longest lived of first generation diesels and are still in demand for some short lines.Even if I liked Alco's better as a railfan the proof was in the pudding.
Simply said General Motors has produced some excellent rail equipment but would anything a public agency buys be just as good? ????? ??
>>> i think if they were to make them, they would hold up <<<
Where did you get that crazy idea? They might hold up for three years or 36,000 miles, but certainly no longer.
Tom
Under the Oldsmobile brand, the TA will have bought plenty of classics.
Moving trains is so cool, and relatively simple. So I got this idea. Passing through the 207th or Coney Island shops, I see the trucks sitting on the rails by themselves, with the car bodies taken off and propped up on legs. The individual trucks look like complete four-wheeled vehicles in themselves. And they do contain the motors.
So wouldn't it be interesting if they took some old scrapped trucks, affixed controls to them, and perhaps a small air-brake compressor, and made a small self-contained railcar out of them; perhaps even as an amusement ride. You could set it up just like the real system, with the signals and switching, (automatically controlled by route selection punch boxes), and the trip arms and emergency brake and charging system. Only on a smaller scale. You wouldn't need 600v to move such a small unit, so perhaps a safer 120v could be used, or whatever the bumper cars use. But it would still use the 3rd rail. and perhaps the truck could be rebuilt with lighter components. A safety "cab" would be mounted on top so no one could fall to the tracks. Instructions would be posted everywhere, so people could get it easily. It would be so simple; kids could easily be taught to hold down a controller, and if they dump or get tripped, it would take no time to charge up again. (And perhaps the dead man feature could be hooked down for children or other people who could not hold it down for long. I would use all three of the main controls now used-- the old SMEE controller and brake handle, the single brake and control handle, and the new stick- shift type. And the basic signals are easy to comprehend.
This would have been great for the Steeplechase park, but now of course, the stadium was built on most of it. Perhaps on the small area Bullard still owns where his Thunderbolt was, but that's probably a very narrow strip. (This would be like the new horse ride he planned for the park, which this time would have had the ability for the rider to control the speed.) Perhaps in like fashion, it could be built around the stadium, if here is enough space. (I have only seen parts of it from the Stillwell terminal).
Perhaps under the Stillwell terminal, especially since it will be rebuilt with lighter construction. A ride like this would have eased my and other people's anxiety about what controlling a train is like. And it would a much better training tool than the videotaped simulator. (Or even the upcoming computer animated R-142 simulator)
I even envisioned a whole town where rails run on every street and even people's driveways. This would be a modified system, where low v. power is collected from both of the running rails (if possible), constantly charging the batteries. Perhaps this would use communication based control.
Well I finally got off my lazy you-know-what and processed my 1860 map of Upper Manhattan and the Bronx for the web. The new vintage map is available at:
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/UpperManh_1860/UpperManh_1860_Level1.html
Unfortunately, I don't have the corresponding map of Lower Manhattan; it was already sold by the store where I bought the Upper Manhattan map.
For those who haven't seen them before, I have put a small collection of old city maps online as a kind of hobby. I have maps of both Boston and New York. Of note are a 1902 map of New York City showing (amongst other interesting things) the ferrys plying the East River before the construction of the bridges (other than the Brooklyn Bridge). I also have the official 1965 plan for the city of Boston showing the proposed alignment of the inner ring and the Southwest Expressway (both canceled before construction). The index to the maps is at:
http://www.brorson.com/maps/MapIndex.html
Finally, in case you didn't know, I have also put a number of photos of my old nabe in Washington Heights (near Fort Tryon Park), as well as photos of the Bronx on the web at:
http://www.brorson.com/neighborhood/NeighborhoodTourNew.html
Please enjoy the site!
Stuart
I love those old maps. I especially like the 1934 map with Thirteenth Avenue!
Do you have any other maps in your collection that have not been scanned?
Thanks. I don't have too many more maps right now, but I am always on the lookout when I go shopping, so more will appear in the fullness of time.
I do have the 1930's map of Manhattan which came with the "New York Panarama" book (the WPA project). It is wonderfully detailed. That map is next.
Stuart
I've seen (the same) Thirteenth Avenue on newer maps as well.
Also: How much did you pay for this map when you bought it?
It was on sale at about $60. I bought it in Portsmouth, NH in an antiquarian book store which was closing for renovations. The store had slashed its prices to help clear out inventory before closing.
Usually such maps are much more expensive.
Stuart
According to the MTA website, NYC's subway is #5:
Annual Subway Ridership:
1. Moscow 3.2 billion
2. Tokyo 2.7 billion
3. Seoul 1.6 billion
4. Mexico City 1.3 billion
5. New York City 1.3 billion
6. Paris 1.2 billion
7. Osaka 957 million
8. London 886 million
9. Hong Kong 798 million
10. St. Petersburg 784 million
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffrank.htm
Date of data unkown. Though these #s appear elsewhere regularly.
However, according to APTA, NY's 2000 subway ridership was 1.75 billion.
http://www.apta.com/stats/ridershp/index.htm
That is quite a leap in ridership, as we all know, and appears to vault us above Mexico City and Seoul to #3 -- assuming that those cities didn't see major ridership gains. (We have a LONG way to go to catch Tokyo and Moscow though it might happen eventually with their projected major population declines).
Another interesting tidbit: though DC is #2 in the US, it is only #5 in North America. Not only behind Mexico City, of course, but also Montreal and Toronto, which are both much smaller.
My question: are we #3? Is there an accepted source for international ridership figures like APTA is here? I surfed the web a bit, and didn't find an authoritative source.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
a few days ago i was waiting for a B train at bay parkway. and i saw an slant r40 coming in to the station, so i figured it was an M train. it tuned out to be a B, is that normal? B's are usually R68 arent they?
Normal on a weekend. Unusal on a weekday. Stillwell terminal usually "borrows" some Q's and just change the signs. It depends on several things but mostly the amount of R68/68a's that are available on the weekends. More of them are brought into CIYD to be fixed on the weekends and the Q is not running so it makes the slants available for service on other lines. On occasion you would tend to see more slants on the N over the weekend also. It is the dispatchers responsiblity to make sure the slants they borrowed are put back into the yard for Mon. am service on the Q.
Wasn't the point of putting Slants on the Q to put them on a low-mileage, part-time service, as they are a shiity car ?
Putting them out on the B does defeatd its purpose. Why don't they just leave them on the B and R68 on the Q ?
I would assume that not all of the cars have to take weekends off.
But yes, I don't see any reason for them to do what they do.
Yes, those were the reasons. But they are on the B on weekends so some of the R68A and R68As can get into the maintainnence shop for their SMS checkups.
Not all of them run as B trains on the weekends. And the R40 is not a "shitty" car. It's just getting somewhat old.
I didn't wish to respond to that somewhat unkind description. Well, they'll never win a beauty contest; their sheer ugliness is what makes them beautiful; but they are supremely COLD (the ones I was in yesterday were WELL cooled) and they are VERY FAST.
As for age, they're past middle age (they're 33 years old) and are starting to show signs of rust at the roof; look at all the gobs of bondo and putty on them; but they're nice inside and nothing beats that elongated railfan window! Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I can't stand the R68 and I'm not fond of the R46 either.
To each their own.
wayne
Like I said in another thread -- after the Redbirds are gone, the next big battle between the "new technology vs. history/nostalga" people on the board will be when the R-160s start displacing the Slant-40s. The R-38/40M/42s will also be going, but they just don't have the same fan base the slants have.
Nothing in the system ever has or ever will again resemble the Slant R40. They are, in their supreme ugliness, unique. One of a kind. A pair should go to a museum, any museum. Too bad I am not of the means necessary to ensure so.
wayne
Maybe even convert a pair into a Subway sandwich shop. But don't paint them yellow, that would really look bad! Wish I had the means necessary to do that!
If for no other reason than they were the prototype for the new TA car exterior design that -- outside of the extremely unique bulkheads -- lives on to this day on the B Division they should find a place for at least a couple of slants either in the NYC Transit Museum collection, at Branford or one of the other museums.
If 2 R16's can be saved, then a pair of slants will live on forever.....somewhere.
I will personally cheer the crushing of every R38, and I'll cry a little for every crushed R42.
I'll pick a Slant on a Express run over any Hippo or R46.
Besides, it's easy to hear the Motorman wrap it on those express runs. They were great on the "A", great on the "B", and almost as good on the "Q".
If they didn't re-wire the acceleration, it would be even more of a treat.
Not to mention tunnel dashes, esp. the 60th Street grade and also the 14th Street tube; get a T/O with a penchant for challenging the 50MPH GT there and a Slant or R40M as the lead motor; that's a real treat!
wayne
The R46 can challenge the R40 for speed these days.....but they'll leave any R68 eating it's steeldust.
The R-44/ R-46 have a top speed of about 83 Mph I read somewhere. Can someone verify this for me?
The R-44s hit 87 mph during testing on the LIRR. It wreaked havoc on their motors, as the excessive centrifugal force caused their armature windings to birdcage.
The R-44s and R-46s were designed for 70 mph speeds, since that's what the 2nd Ave. line was planned for.
I actually thought them pretty until the chainlink fence went up on their noses. Heh. After all, any conductor type individual with properly developed sea legs wouldn't fall over the side. The real downside of those pretties is that the GEESE would fall overboard. Nothing an old S-shaped crew key couldn't solve. And yeah, Darwin bait would also fall off the platform too ... shouldn't forget that. But weren't those puppies designed by the same guy who did the GG-1 body shaping for the PRR? If so, that actually makes them museum-worthy when it's time to go to that great BIE in the sky ...
But weren't those puppies designed by the same guy who did the GG-1 body shaping for the PRR?
Yes, the R-40 was another Raymond Loewy design. From trashcans to the GG-1 and back to trashcans... (sorry, Wayne, it just sounded too good, I had to say it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Before they go, I still want to see somebody at East New York split up a pair a slants, put them at either end of the train and put six R-40Ms in the middle to make it look the way they should have designed the cars in the first place (and I suppose if full-width cabs had been the norm back in 1967 they could have gotten at least halfway there -- four car A-B-B-A units with only the slanted end at the T/O and conductors positions, where the doors would have been locked anyway because of the cabs and all that jewelery they welded onto the front nose wouldn't have been necessary)
Lets carry this idea through!
Split a set of Slant R/40s and a set of R/40Ms. Create two mixed marriages. With the slants at each end fill in the consist with two or three sets of R/40Ms, depending where they'll be showed off!
This is almost as good as my obsession to see the SOACs at each end of a consist with R/44s or R/46s as filler.
avid
The R-46s are OK. As for the R-68s, well, you know how I feel about them. We will definitely have to include a ride over the bridge on a Q of slants this fall.
Aside from those torturous flat seats, the slants are awesome cars.
Guess I have to give my own plug for them even if I whined every time I got one instead of an R1-9. Of any SMEE equipment (r10-42) for operating characteristics My favorite was the Slant-40. Nice feel of acceleration and best braking of all. For some reason the A/C ones weren't as nice braking, which means the slants and then 42's. The slants would have looked OK if it weren't for all the safety appliances they had to add which of course showed the design itself was bad for rapid transit service. Unique though.
[For some reason the A/C ones weren't as nice braking, which means the slants and then 42's.]
Maybe that was due to the added weight of the A/C unit itself?
BMTman
I often wondered about that ...of course I took a guess once that a full load of passengers came out to about 15 tons. Then again there were load sensors [instead of variable load valves] that adjusted braking for tonnage..on and on. The R38 with A/C were the biggest nightmare of all [next to the R11!] IIRC the A/C unit added 2 1/2 tons to the weight of the car.
For looks I'd call the R40m the best looking postwar car.
Why don't they ever run the slants on the D or F during weekends? Why only the B and N? Just imagine, the D would be much quicker up 6th Ave and CPW with slants. I remember once riding a slant on the D back in the mid-80s (1984 or 85, I think). Could bring back a few memories. Or how about the slants flying up the tracks of the Queens Blvd express like they used to when they ran on the E and F.
The slants felt right at home on the CPW dash when they ran on the A. They positively SMOKED!!
They don't run on the D or F as the D and F are based out of other yards; the B, N and Q are all based out of CI, the D out of the Concourse yard, and the F out of Jamaica - they'll shift cars around within a yard, but generally not between yards.
subfan
It's generally a logistical bother to shift cars round between yards. The last shift I have recorded has sent about 24 Slant R40 from Eastern Division back to Coney Island, these are 4370-4393.
wayne
The D and F are not entirely based out of other yards. A number of F R-46's are in Coney Island, as are some R-68 D trains. And, to prove this, an R-68A train was on the D recently. Only if some D's op. out of CI and Some B's out of Concourse would that be possible (it was obivios the train was off the B line. The bulkhead signs between cars read "B")
You are correct about some D trains operating out of Coney; I think Train Dude once gave teh number as 2 or 3 sets each rush hour. No F trains are based out of coney, though; all R-46s are based out of Jamaica, though some do lay up in the midday and overnight in the Avenue X yard at Coney.
subfan
That would explain the sight of 2808-09-11-10 and four others northbound at 59th Street on my last weekday trip through the area.
wayne
I ride the (N) fairly frequently, and I always hope to get a slant. Lately I've been nothing but disapointed. Are they not running slants on the (N) anymore? Or are they just rare? Or are they just on the weekends?
:-) Andrew
I don't ride the N terribly often, but about two weeks ago, IIRC on a Friday afternoon, I caught an R40.
Personally, I prefer (by a small margin) the R32, which seemed to be dominating the N today. Yay.
R32s and R40s are my favorite pieces of B division equipment. I was on a speedy E train (of 32's, of course) on Friday. Speeds were in excess of 45 MPH as the train entered the Northern Blvd express. Also on Friday, I saw one train of 40-slants on the N. I also rode on a train of 68's which had the new rollsigns on them!
They are on the N during the week, maybe one or two trainsets of Slant40's. I've sat by my boss' window (I don't have one) and in one meeting saw on the N R68, R32, R68A, R40Slant.....
So you might get one but with only one or two during the day your chance is slim.
Saturday I did not see a single Slant on the "N" but I did see one sleeping in CIYD - some numbers were #4184-4185, and #4392-4393, back from their vacation in Eastern Division. Couldn't spot the rest, they were behind another consist of Slants, signed up as "Q".
I saw Phase II R32, Alsthom R68 and one Kawasaki R68A on the "N", with R32 dominating by a trainset or two.
wayne
I'd be more surprised to see the Slant signed up as an "M"! :o>
Yesterday (Saturday), there was the usual complement of two Slant R40 in "B" service. Due to some G.O. or an other, the "B" was running weekend service to 145th Street in Manhattan, so they may have been short a train or two. Oddly enough, at least one of the "B"'s normal complement of R68A was seen running on the "N".
wayne
These changes are often and weird. I saw 2805 and 2807 and friends on the D Line in Brooklyn. Those were the 2 cars that derailed outside of DeKalb Avenue in brooklyn. I was unable to check for damage as the train was on the elevated structure above me.
That's good news to hear; that was quite a hit that #2805 took! That's good construction there; under that fiberglas shell there must be some heavy-duty stuff.
Well, the good Body Doctors at CI have patched up their pretty little noses and sent them out on the road; And what were they doing on the "D", I wonder. They're the Alsthom (Coney Island) bunch (as opposed to the Concourse [Jeumont-Schneider] bunch), don't they belong in the "N"s? I see "B"s and "N"s trading cars, both Kawasaki and ANF-Westinghouse but rarely do I ever see Alsthom R68's in the 2800 range on the "D". (2700s yes I do, Concourse has a couple dozen of them)
wayne
2777 and under belong to CCY. 2778 and up belong to CIYD
Thank you for that information; I have updated my notes accordingly;
that would mean that #2725 - #2777 are Alsthom belonging to Concourse.
wayne
Hi. I'm not sure about the Alsthom part but I wanted to make a correction in the numbers. The highest nunber in the CCY fleet is 2775 and not 77. I had made an error. A short time ago the CCY fleet was 16 cars larger (2791) but due to needs of service, they were given back to CIYD. I was a Y/D so I have to keep up with my numbers. Who knows exactly what kind of fleet they will have when the bridge closes but one thing is certain, there will be a lot more action (trains) up in CCY. They are currently fixing up the rear of the yard with new trackwork to accommodate the extra trains safely.
These past weekends they've been doing track work at CIYD but it looks like (i thought) work from the flood damage. This weekend they were working on Track 31 by the switch to 88 track.
That was an easy correction; I had made my footnote in pencil
Anyway, this is the subcontractor breakdown for Contract R68,
built by ANF-Westinghouse (AMRAIL):
2500-2724 : Jeumont-Schneider 225 units
2725-2924 : Alsthom (AdTranz) 200 units
wayne
I've never seen an R68 higher than 2799 on the D in over 12 years. That certainly is strange.
Say what you want, but the R-68s would be no match for the BMT standards in a head-butting session/demolition derby.
That would be an interesting match, more so would be one involving an R68 and a D-Type Triplex. I saw that curtain wall that #2805 hit; if it weren't for that little setback, we could have had another #6304 on our hands. That end is no doubt heavily reinforced beneath the fragile fiberglas shell; it withstood the stroke admirably.
wayne
No car in its right mind would ever tangle with a Triplex. You and I both know who would win. That must have been one helluva collision on Fred's favorite line in 1955.
"B" normal service on the weekends is to 145th. It has been this way since November of 2000.
Actually, I remember a few MU lash ups of Slants on the Mary. It was 1997 or 1996, and there is a picture of a Slant at Fresh Pond Road. That sure as hell ain't a Nancy over there.
The (B)would run R40 Slants on Weekends. And R40 Slants on (B) on Weekends is Normal.After July 1 when the 6 Ave side of the Bridge is closed. The R40 Slants on the (B) is history.
(B) R40 Slant#4300
So is the (B) in Brooklyn from what I hear; it's to be a glorified shuttle on the weekends signed as (W). I wonder if it will run express from 36th to Pacific before terminating.
My guess is that the CI Slants will run on the (N) and on the Diamond Q.
wayne
You are Right. On Weekends. The Broadway (Q) will run them sometimes and the (W) Might run them.
TA's law:
When Slant R40s sleep from the "Q" on weekends, some R68As are given a break and a few MU sets of R40s will be signaled to run the "B". It's a routine practice, but once the Slants go the way of the Redbirds, there will be very few chances left to get a railfan window for the West End Line.
I noticed while riding my N on the B line this afternoon the signals look different on the West End. The signal lights are smaller, as well as the signals themselves. They look "dwarfed".
I see there are new signals but covered up, which look like regular NYCS signals.
Signal modernization project. When complete, Stillwell tower will control the B line from Stillwell to south of 9th ave. The area north of 9th ave. will probably be put into 38st. master tower. This will eliminate Bay Parkway, 62st., tower D (Bay 50st.) and 8th ave. towers.
Stillwell Tower or Tower B??
Ahh. Good question. Sorry for the confusion. Stillwell tower (mainline tower) is located within CIYD in Tower B. The building is called Tower B but Stillwell tower (the interlocking machine) is located on the top floor and occupies a little less than half of the space up there. The yard interlocking machine (Tower B/CIYD) is on the top floor also and is directly across from the Stillwell tower interlocking machine. Two machines, two names, one building.
All of the original BMT signals on outdoor lines were smaller as you describe. I can't remember if the tunnel ones were smaller than the IND let's say. Maybe the difference was not as noticeable in tunnels.
The only [present] BMT route that had bigger signals was Astoria and that's because it was built with IRT sinals.
So the B (West End) line is the only place where these orginal BMT signals are left I guess. I don't think I've seen them anywhere else in the system.
There is one automatic BMT GRS signal circa 1919 signal on the Culver line S/B just before West 8th Street Station.
A signal upgrade project that was due for completion in 1997. The project to combine operations of the wayside towers along the West End Line (Murphy, 62nd St., Bay Parkway and Bay 50th) was accelerated due to the antiquated GRS 1917 circa signals that were partly responsible for two collisions on blind curves on the elevated line between Fort Hamilton Parkway and 9th Avenue. A split switch accident in 1994 also gave a go-ahead for renovations for switch machines. The 9th Avenue lower level also is being upgraded, staging areas for work trains are a reason, however this would also allow put-ins from 38th Street or terminations. Unsure if the lower level is still 480', I believe it was extended to 600' during the Culver Shuttle's demise.
Some of the new signals are dwarf size, but retain three aspects. Other automatics at station zones are full-sized. New GT timers are also being installed, as well as ST timers to allow more breathing room, especially on weekday rush hours with the "M" service running.
Murphy tower I believe will be one of the master towers, after Murphy it will be Coney Island's responsibilty.
A man lying on the track near Croyden station (where the Acela-Metroliner races posted last week were recorded) was killed early Saturday by a train as another man stood by.
Trenton Times story
Bet you an autopsy will reveal high BAC in both people. Sounds likes a beer induced stunt.
As for the third person - they just sat and watched this the whole time?
Sounds a bit weird, huh?
So as long as I'm thinking about the map, I'll ask a question which occurred to me earlier. Take a look at the Harlem River's course back in 1860:
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/UpperManh_1860/UpperManh_1860_Level2_0_4.html
According to the map, it continues northward past Marble Hill, and seems to be fairly wide. Nowadays, that area is dry. What happened to the Harlem River? The 1902 map shows that it just joined Spuyten Duyvil Creek.
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/NYC1902/NYC1902MapLevel2_o_6.html
Does the 1902 map show the original course of the Northern Harlem River, or did they re-direct the river at some point in the late 1800s?
Stuart
The river was not wide enough for ships, so a wider path was cut below Marble Hill where it is now. Later the original path was filled. This, of course, left the Manhattan neighborhood of Marble Hill attached to The Bronx. I don't know the years.
Right you are Gary... that is exactly what my parents explained to me
when I was very young and living nearby. In fact, I'm a "graduate"
of Marble Hill Nursery School :-)
The river north of the Spuyten Duyvil Creek is the Tibbet's Brook which starts in northern Yonkers. It currently disappears underground in Van Cortlandt Park. I don't know if it still flows into the Harlem River or into the sewer system.
Speaking of Tibbets Brook -- I have a copy of a map from the early 1930's that depicts the Tibbets Brook Parkway, which seems to be nothing more than an alternate (or erroneous?) name for the Saw Mill River Parkway.
Interesting. . . . thanks. I was wondering if perhaps the brook continued above the junction with Spuyten Duyvil, and perhaps was at one time connected with what is now the Van Cortlandt Lake?
When studying the map, it looks to me like the Van Cortlandt Lake is fed by the Saw Mill River. If so, then "Tibbits Brook" = Saw Mill River = Harlem River above Spuyten Duyvil.
So is this correct?
Stuart
No.
A map of Yonkers shows the Saw Mill River turning and flowing into the Hudson. Tibbets Brook starts in Yonkers.
Since the Harlem River is fed with an equal amount of water from the Spuyten Duyvil Creek and the Tibbet's Brook. It can take a name change.
Like the Allegheny, Monongahela and Ohio Rivers, only on a smaller scale.
Now I heard that the Bronx River used to follow a different path southward. That path changed and the valley it used to follow is followed today by the MN mainline south of William's Bridge.
Anybody know more about local geology?
Tibbets Brook flows into Van Cortlandt Lake. From there, I beleive it still flows into the Harlem though undergound conduits. There is a Tibbet Avenue in the Kinsbridge section of the Bronx that follws its approximate route.
The Saw Mill River, as Pig noted, flows uder the streets of Yonkers into the Hudson.
I lived on Marble Hill 1937-1950, and I am fairly certain of these angles of history: Before the IRT reached West 225th Street, there was already a swing bridge over the Harlem River Ship Canal (built about 1900?). When the elevated IRT needed a double-deck bridge, the old single-deck bridge was floated downstream to University Heights, where (unless I am wrong) it is the current bridge.
I was present (1959?) when the double-deck swing bridge was floated out, to allow for the current double deck lift bridge.
Recall that, prior to the digging of the Harlem River Ship Canal, the water coming down from Westchester caused a need for a bridge from Manhattan north. The toll bridge was the King's Bridge, if I am correct, just south of the present intersection of West 230th Street and Kingsbridge Avenue. To the east, a free bridge (called Farmers Bridge?) was built.
The railroad from Harlem stayed on the east side of the Harlem River and swung around north of Marble Hill, cutting through the hill near West 23lst Street, and looping south through what (during the 1940's) was a busy New York Central freight yard), then west to Spuyten Duyvil. When the Ship Canal was dug, the railroad was rerouted.
Much good history is in a book whose title and author I will post in a day or two.
The toll bridge was the King's Bridge, if I am correct, just south of the present intersection of West 230th Street and Kingsbridge Avenue. To the east, a free bridge (called Farmers Bridge?) was built.
Kingsbridge Avenue follows the former route of the bridge built by Frederick Phillipse(sp?). It became a free bridge eventually. The Free Bridge at 225th Street was called just that. It was always free.
From what I understand it was the local farmers who built the non-toll bridge to have a way to avoid the toll. Thus, it was called by both names: Free Bridge and Farmer's Bridge.
Maybe we should get in touch with these farmers to build a bridge to Staten Island?
In 1968, William A. Tieck wrote and published an excellent history of Riverdale, Kingsbridge, and Spuyten Duyvil. My copy is a 1989 reprint, which he allowed the Kingsbridge-Riverdale-Van Cortlandt Development Corporation to publish with the title "Riverdale, Kingsbridge, Spuyten Duyvil; New York City; a historical epitome of the northwest Bronx." It is a fascinating narrative, with many photos and several maps.
Some dates: 1693, the first bridge at the site of King's Bridge, the tolls of which went to the Philipse family.
1758, the construction of the Free Bridge, along what is now West 225 Street, a few hundred yards east of Broadway.
June 17, 1895: the completion of the Harlem River Ship Canal. A single-deck swing bridge provides the crossing for Broadway.
February, 1906: The New York Central leaves the route that bent north of Marble Hill (via a cut at what is now West 231 St. and Kingsbridge Avenue) and is rerouted via the edge of the Ship Canal.
June, 1906: the single-deck swing Broadway Bridge is floated to West 207 Street. A double-deck swing bridge (for Broadway and the IRT) is moved into position.
December 23, 1960: the 1906 swing bridge is moved out for scrapping.
December 26, 1960: Subway service begins over the current lift bridge.
Perhaps Kevin Walsh will explore this area for Forgotten-ny.com sometime.
He already did:
I have a feeling we're not in Manhattan anymore
For the Staten Island Yankees, that is.
It is located on what would have been the North Shore Line coming out of St. George, and the platform is located directly under the stadium. It is interesting that we have heard nothing from the MTA about this, and it would be interesting to see what kind of service the station will get.
This subject appeared in the Staten Island paper a short time ago. The MTA isn't even sure if they want to try to collect revenue from the fans at this new station.
It would be very difficult to pull off. If they put fare control in the station, people who board / detrain at St. George will pay double. If they don't, people who board anywhere else get a free ride.
it most likley will be some kind of shuttle at St George on like track 11 and Track 12...it will connect to the stadium..if you look at st george when you are stopped before entering the platform..you can see the station being built. me knowing all the condcutors and motorman, i will definently ask about this yankee stadium thing and find out...good talk to you all
Danny
Comeing off the wye tracks they can set up an extra fare control. You could exit from your normal St. George bound train, and go to track 11/12 and they could setup turnstiles there. Also have people coming from the ferry hit those turnstiles like a 1/2 / 1/2 job.
Most people coming from the ferry we get the free transfer anyway.
Yesterday I spent a couple hours yesterday mid-morning to early-afternoon on the Lexington IRT. My first intention was to do a round-trip on the #7 from Times Square, but when I saw that the 7 was suspended between there and Queensboro, I scrapped that plan. So I rode the shuttle to Grand Central, then attempted a wait for an R-142 on the downtown local. When 3 R-62's came and went, I scrapped THAT plan and boarded the next train - a downtown #5 (redbirds). The first set on that must have been R-26 or 28, because they had the old-style sash windows. Half the lights were out, but the air was in fairly working order (it was comfortable - high A/C feels great at first, but you will be begging for hot tea and several blankets before long).
We rolled along at a good pace to Bowling Green, then I crossed to the uptown side, and after giving a pointer to a couple with such a heavy Southern accent, I had to force myself not to laugh (they wanted to get to 54th St, so I told them take the next train to 42nd then get the #6 to 51st. But that was before I found out all uptown trains were running express between 42nd and 125th!!)
So the same redbird I just got off came back in, and I got on. We arrived at 14th just as an uptown R142 #6 was closing it's doors. I decided to catch it at 42nd. We passed it around 28th Street, so I caught up with it at Grand Central.
Which brings me to my one comment:
When departing Grand Central, the lights flickered off a few times. Could it be . . . ? Please say it's so that the blinking lights lives on in the R142!!!
The same thing also happened on my prior (and 1st) ride on the R142!
Anyway, ran express to 125th, then I went downstairs and caught a downtown R62 #6 train to 59th Street, then an R32 N to Queensboro Plaza (I was still considering that ride on the #7).
Man, that sumbitch HAULED ASS through the 60th St tunnel! And I was changing cars through that to reach the 1st car. Quite a rush!
Upon ascending from the bowels, I discovered everything around us was soaked, having been hit with rain showers.
I went down to catch the #7, but the crowds discouraged me, so I just took another R32 N back into Manhattan, then the bus back to Jersey.
I don't think so. I was R142A 7231 this past week and the lights never flickered (but I didn't ride thru 42nd Street). I was on two WF R36s (one on the 6, the other on the 7) though and the lights flashed on both of those trains.
How many R-142's are in the system at this time. I have already seen two heading in opposite directions. On the IRT 4, 5, 6, lines. Any Ideas?
I heard 14 R142A (6 train) trainsets (140 cars) were in service as of Tuesday, May 8. The R142 (2 train) has 1 trainset (10 cars) in service in revenue testing.
i've riden several R142a trainsets and quite a few do have carbody lights that flicker from time to time. what gives? must be something with the inverters?
The cars must have been set to redbird compatibility mode from
the operator's console screen. Did you notice any rust forming?
I think the rust gets installed in the first SMS ...
Oh! Redbird compatibility mode? Does that mean the seats are comfortable? Does that mean the storm doors can be opened (by a normal human) with one hand? Does that mean the lights are dimmed slightly (flickering is a poor substitute) so it's possible to see out the windows while underground?
the source for that is within the current collect shoes. everytime the shoe hits a crack in the third rail, the shoes creates a spark, which creates a short circuit and then for the light to rapidly come off then come on (flickering) I have noticed this on almost every R-142A that i have rode that is in service now. for some reason, the R-142 on the 7 ave. line doesn't do that except for when 6301-10 kept periodically shutting off lights and turning them back on while running. but once normal, they never flicker. its in the mechanism.
If you wish to attend meet at the Manhattan end of the uptown 2/3 platform at Atlantic Ave Brtooklyn at 9am. If there is a G.O. Meet at the uptown end of the 4/5 (Express) Platform). We will board the 918 to Jamaica and change for the Huntington Train and change again at Huntington. We will have an hour to explore Huntington before the Port Jefferson Train arrives.
This trip will involve a degree of downhill walking at Port Jefferson
On a scale modeller's board, it was reported that Mike Wolf (The owner of MTH) told people at a train show that he has pushed back the release date of the R-32 subway car model sets to December of 2001. They were originally supposed to have been released in the fall.
The R-21 models are (finally!!!) supposed to ship next week; However, this is the ship date from overseas; the trains may actually not make it to dealers for another two weeks.
Mr. Wolf also told people at the train show that he is interested in producing an R-9 model in the future.
Say, could Mike Wolf produce a scale model Almond Joy? Also, does he do "O" guage?
I don't know about "Almond Joys". So far, he has produced two models of the R-42 (pre-and post GOH), a Chicago CTA model, and the upcoming R-21's and R-32's.
BTW, All of these ARE in O-Guage 3-Rail. (You can run them on a standard Lionel-type layout.)
C34573
REHABILITATE STILLWELL AVENUE TERMINAL
BROOKLYN
MORE THAN $50M
This project is to reconstruct the Stillwell Avenue Terminal, an elevated station that runs
parallel to the east side of Stillwell Avenue between Neptune and Surf avenues in the Coney
Island community of Brooklyn. The terminal is a viaduct structure of concrete encased steel
construction consisting of eight tracks and four island-type platforms. The terminal joins the
BMT Division "N" and "B" lines and the IND "D" and "F" lines on both north and south ends
by means of two approach decks. The proposed work includes the following tasks.
Replace the entire terminal except the previously reconstructed northern approach deck
Replace the existing viaduct structure within the platform areas with an entirely new structure
resembling a typical elevated transit station with an open-deck steel construction
Replace the concrete elements of the south approach deck
Construct new control areas and an inter-modal bus facility
Reconstruct the employee facilities
Provide temporary employee facilities to support construction phasing and route changes
introduced by the service plan
Duration of Contract 44 months Monthly list
Interesting how they list "N" and "B" as BMT and the "D" and "F" as IND.
The "D" as IND? Wow! What an insult. I will even go to bat for my foil Brighton Express Bob and say to put the Brighton as an IND is lunacy. The Brighton is BMT period. In fact, next to the Sea Beach it is the best line in the city.
[to put the Brighton as an IND is lunacy]
The same goes with Culver.
The Stillwell terminal is ALL BMT. Brighton, Culver, Sea Beach, West End, they are ALL BMT lines. Whay thay'd be called IND is beyond me, none of those lines were built by the IND.
WHen did the IND move into Stillwell??
"BMT LINES" as proclaimed above the station entrance!!!
Lou: It has got to be some moron at the MTA who pronounced that. Any railran worth a damn knows that the BMT goes to Stillwell, just as the sign says, and not the damn IND, Mayor Hyland's white elephant. Well, at least there are a few of us willing to stand up and state the obvious, even if the TA can see the forest from the trees.
I agree Sea Beach, but lets HOPE when they redo the station we don't end up with a sign "BMT/IND LINES" in its place...
BOOOHOOOOOOOOO
R-36: Attaboy big guy. If enough of us rail hell about calling those lines IND, then someone will get the message and have an epiphony on that subject. The Brighton is IND? I've never heard of anything so stupid ever mentioned on this site like that. It boggles the mind. Wait until Brighton Express Bob hears of it. He'll be even more upset than I am.
To think the person entering this information for the TA website as to the B and N being IND and the D and F being IND gets paid..........
This is from the TA website. Shows that someone didn't have their cups of coffee that day.
What's with those guys Piasan? Someone wrote me that when Stillwell's work is completed they hope that the sign "BMT Lines" isn't changed to BMT-IND Lines. That would really piss me off. It does already that the Ind and the BMT are almost synonomous as far as some of the powers-that-be are concerned. BMT is BMT and IND is IND and I don't want the two to be confused because the BMT is the elite of the lines and the IND is just a political line that former Mayor Hylan engineered to massage his ego.
I'm one of the few people that knew that Mayor Hylan was against the BMTs existence. He was a motorman that worked for the BMT when it was the BRT and he was fired. When he got into politics he launched a vendetta against the BMT. He managed to win and created the IND which was the city's own subway line.
BMTJeff
Hylan also beat up Belmont's toy trains pretty well also. Both companies lashed together as the "traction interests" and he designed the IND to screw with both of them. Granted, the IRT was a disgrace the condition the cars were kept in while it remained private. If it weren't for rain, the windows would never have been washed at all ...
The IND would have been an even better idea if the lines had been built AWAY from where the BMT and IRT ran, to serve those who had no service at all (and still don't) ... but it's all academic now. Only shame is that the IND had to take in those orphaned BMT lines. Heh.
on thejoekerner.com, there's also maps from 1951 from the Board of Transportation where they designed the bastardization of the IND and BMT under the ruse of "9 more trains per hour here, 4 more here" ... see the plot unfold if you've got the time to go over and download the 4 maps from 1951 ... all four add up to a bit over two megs and will display in the browser ... grab a coffee and let it load.
The IND would have been an even better idea if the lines had been built AWAY from where the BMT and IRT ran, to serve those who had no service at all (and still don't) ... but it's all academic now. Only shame is that the IND had to take in those orphaned BMT lines. Heh.
And the IND would've been better had the Second System ever been built.
Indeed ... but the FIRST system was a brain damaged thought that only a politico could love. Strange how the subway ALWAYS comes back to politics, the fuel it actually runs on.
The IND would have been even better if they had built the Second Avenue line to begin with besides the few other lines that they had planned but never built.
BMTJeff
The IND, unlike the other lines, was built to directly compete with them, and not to address the lack of service in those areas w/o rapid transit. Eastern Queens still suffers from this today. The IND Second System did, in fact, plan to provide new service to some of these areas.
And the first phase of the IND as we know it today was not what Hylan really wanted, either. On August 28th, 1922, Hylan revealed his own plans for his subway system, before the IND became "official". His plan included "capturing" (or taking over) nearly 100 miles of existing lines and building over 100 miles of new lines. Construction of all these new lines would be completed by December 31st, 1925. Passengers would be able to ride between the ends of New York City on one fare. Read more about it in my History of the IND.
--Mark
I was reading your history article on the IND. It was quite interesting. I also read about the plans for increased service into Queens that never came to fruit. Many parts of Queens still suffer from a dearth of subway service that still exists to this day.
BMTJeff
Checked that out a day or two after you originally put it up here and it was quite the eye-opener. It IS amusing how so many NYC mayors thought they were the emperors of whole continents. :)
"It IS amusing how so many NYC mayors thought they were the emperors of whole continents."
William Marcy (Boss) Tweed was a continent !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
It's a very well documented fact that Hylan was a ex BRT motorman who was terminated while reading a book at the same time as operating a train. This was the beginning of the hatred Hylan held for the BRT and to a much lesser extent, the IRT.
Hylan blocked the last of the Dual Contracts. It wasn't until Walker came in that the now BMT finished the last of the Dual Contracts. This final construction was done alongside the IND construction, which is why 8th Avenue BMT, Fulton and Broad BMT stations were completed in IND style colors and tiling.
He did have a point with the private traction interests, the fact being that city money should not go to a private venture, even if the city would eventually own the property, but went way overboard. This is why the IND Fulton Street line was built DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH the Fulton El. That killed Ashland Place, even after the Fulton El was re-built to Heavy Duty Standards at the Dual Contracts time. Shame, for miles of upgraded El were torn down (only the section east of the Brooklyn/Queens border survices today, as an IND connection)!!
A great more detail could be found on this website and ERA publications, which offer a wealth of information pertaining to the politics and persons involved with the IND construction and the Dual Contracts.
The problem is with the TA. When the lines were consolidated in 1940, they have tried to eliminate any reference to the separate operating divisions.
Thankfully, it was a failure, and the BMT names continued. But down the road, slowly, but surely, they have succeeded in eliminating all of the old-style route names. The real death started in 1979, and ended in 1985, when the last of the old style BMT signs was removed at Court Street in Downtown Brooklyn.
However, a provision for the renovation (that must be agreed to by the local residents and merchants) is that any final design must retain the scope and parameters of the original design, while incorporating modern touches.
So I would be safe to say the BMT sign would be renewed. Hell, maybe next to the "N" sign, they would put Sea Beach Line. :)
Nice thought Piasan. I keep the good thoughts coming myself and hope that comes to pass. With the TA, however, all bets are off. No one knows what transpires in their brains, that is if they have any.
TA is short on brains, but they ARE open to ideas. That's where we come in.
BMT/IND Lines nothing. The corruption began with Timothy S. Williams and his band of BRT Brigands!
GOAWAY*, of which I am President for Life, demands that new signs on Coney Island terminal read "Union Station," and that, upon entering, patrons be correctly directed to:
Tracks I and II - New York and Sea Beach
Tracks III and IV - Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island
Tracks V and VI - Prospect Park & Coney Island
Tracks VII and VIII - Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island
We shall further demand that Mr. CORBIN, of the Long Island Rail Road Company, desist from leaving his locomotives on any of our tracks.
Take heart, friends, justice is within our grasp!
* Generally Ostentatious Association to Wipe Away the Years
I'd like to respond to this message but don't know what to say. You have really confused the issue. I think that was your intention in the first place. If so, then good work. You have befuddled me.
Only if you provide a free transfer to the Boynton Bicycle Railway. If so, consider me a lifetime member :)
--Mark
Sea Beach, he is talking about the 1800s era original steam railroads that were eventually incorporated into the BRT, and thence the BMT.
A good many of those ROWs are still followed today.
Thank you sir. I am no longer befuddled. At least not for another day or so.
Realistically, it is unlikely that any reference to the BMT or IND will be left standing. The signs will probably just point to the (B)(D)(F) and (N). Actually, in the shorter term it will be the (F)(N)(Q) and (W).
:-) Andrew
Only in the shorter term?
I don't think it's clear at all what will happen when (if) both sides of the bridge are open, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if two Broadway services are retained at Stillwell.
Hey! Hey! Your cheesy Brighton *is* borrowing the Bronx' D trains ya know. Heh.
Wow Selkirk, now it is MY Brighton. Will Q, Doug, and Bob be shocked to hear that. I hope they don't each get a stroke. But still, the Brighton is BMT, not IND. PERIOD. That it goes to the Bronx in the first place is a farce, some crappy concoction drawn up by the screwed up TA.
Heh. JUST checking for a pulse, bro ... after all, to us Bronx boys, those Brooklyn subway lines are all the same ... they're in Brooklyn. Nobody goes there anyway. Hahaha ... but the "D train" is BMT in one borough only, it's IND in the other two. Come to think of it, the See Beech is also a BMT train in one borough and IND in two. Hmmm.
Nah, best not stir the pot. We smoke it instead in honor of the supremes. :)
Whoops ... my bad ... the N still runs Broadway, right? If so then the See Beech *is* BMT in two and IND in one ... I thought they had it on 6th Avenue ...
I think the N is either all BMT or 2 BMT 1 IRT depending on what you consider the Astoria line to be.
I sit corrected ... I thought I had seen it on a map on the E,F,G lines at some point ... well then, Unca Fred's a happier camper right there. Heh. Thanks for the correction ...
I am a much happier camper. I hate it when the BMT and IND bejcome interchangeable. I don't know about it now but one thing I do remember of the difference between the two lines was how dirty the IND cars always were, full of soot and filth. The Sea Beach, Brighton, and West End cars always seemed clean and neat looking. I don't know why but that was the way I saw it. Maybe it was psychological.
Yeah, can't disagree about the filth ... when I worked the lines, you didn't DARE go near anything that was powered and the R1/9's were like working in a coal mine when you got home and watched the soot and steel dust rust out your tub. Then again, BMT didn't quite seem to do all that much better. Most folks never knew that the window opposite the cab was glass. :)
No Fred, I don't think it was psychological. The IND was always sooty because it was nearly entirely underground and used almost always R1/9s, which literally smoked.
Glad to hear that Q. I was sure I was seeing right, but since I was such a BMT fan I could have hallucinated without even knowing it. It just seemed to me those GG's and F's were filthy beyond repair while my Sea Beach and your Brighton looked sharp and fresh. It could have been the Triplex, too. No other subway car like it, believe me on that.
You did ... the N used to run to 71st / Continental Ave and the R to Astoria ... in the late 80s, they switched terminals.
--Mark
Oooo ... Unca Fred's gonna be pythed ... :)
You're forgiven buddy. I was about to let you know of it but I read the other posts and you cleared it up. Since I don't live in New York anymore it doesn't bother me as much as it would if I still lived there. It is hard to me to adjust to the fact that unification of the system reached in 1940 has finally blurred the lines that separated the three parts of the New York Subway. To me, though the BMT still rules and always will.
It is hard to me to adjust to the fact that unification of the system reached in 1940 has finally blurred the lines that separated the three parts of the New York Subway.
Not if you're in emergency services. Those red signs at the ends of each station platform in underground stations specify where the next emergency exit is, the direction of train travel on each track and which division of the subway the tracks belong to. And "division of the subway" is listed, on the sign, as IRT, BMT or IND.
--Mark
Unless you move back to the Bronx ... ride the IRT enough and you'll come to ADMIRE the IND. Heh.
The IND was the ultimate in USELESSNESS. The only line they built that provided a new, important service was the Queens Boulevard.
Those of us in the Bronx liked it a lot ... worked great from upper Manhattan or Concourse ... less than half the time it'd take you on the IRT ... guess it's all a matter of where ya lived. Understand, I'm not a foamer ... the train that took the least amount of time to get me where I wanted to go was the winner. I did luck out and got a pick on the IND, but since I had to report to Stillwell anyway, even that wasn't much of a big deal to me ...
"The only line they built that provided a new, important service was the Queens Boulevard."
True, and other lines were replacement of old BMT "Els". I way of Hylan to get even with the BMT.
Bill "Newkirk"
It wasn't useless. It helped bring down the Fulton El in a hurry, and make sure Ashland Place would never see the light of day.:(
Fred, the BMT rules anyway. The Culver local, the F, runs express on IND trackage in Queens, and although local on 6th Av., three other BMT trains, B, D, and Q, run express there. In fact, the D is a big express invader, crushing the IND C during the day and the A overnight. But then again, even the A uses the BMT Fulton el trackage in Queens....
Music to my ears Q. The BMT is numero uno and the rest follow their trail and eat their dust.
Selkirk: It is my fault that I felt for your line. I had a hunch you were stirring the pot and like a moron I fell for it. Since you are apparently a lot younger than I am (good for you) you probably don't remember when there were three distinct services in New York and we identfied with one. The BMT was supreme in Brooklyn and Queens, while your IRT was big gun in the Bronx and N. Manhattan. Lower Manhattan was BMT land while the IND was pretty much confined to its popularity on the snooty west side.
Heh. Like I said, just checking for a pulse ... and yeah, I was born in 1951 so that oughta give you a timeline. But the IRT was ... well, dogchit so I'd often mosey on down to 207th St and catch a REAL train. From the other end of Manhattan, it was really a no brainer - the IRT stopped at every dog whistle and flag stop whereas the IND got you into midtown almost as fast as the New York Central.
Then I worked the IND (well, the guys at Stillwell *insisted* that the Brighton Express was some kind of BMT thing but that didn't wash with me. Heh. But don't mind me, my perspective of the system is strictly from the other far end of it, way up north ... nothing personal, just another perspective, right or wrong. :)
The Brighton Express will always be BMT, but, with your favorable view of the IND, I take it as a compliment that you felt it was IND. BTW, I'm also a 1951 model.
Prior to Chrystie, the D train as we knew it up north went to either 2nd avenue or down the Culver ... the Brighton connection was a later contrivance but whatever, it was *my* train too even if it was on the other side of the runnels. Although our AA train turned into this "B" thing so there went another BMT line down the toity ... I suppose the Sea Beach never wanted to tangle with upper Manhattan and the Bronx. (grin)
And happy half century to ya, we both outlasted the redbirds. Heh.
1951? I was in New York from March 30-April 1 this year for the purpose of attending the 50th anniversary of the Giants-Dodgers historic playoff of that year. I met most of the surviving players from those teams, and got a super bonus two days later when I went railfanning with a bunch of my new found friends on this site. 1951 was a very nice year and great summer until the Giants went on an incredible winning streak and the Dodgers went into the tank. I remember going to Coney Island on July 3 and to Ebbets Field the next day for a big July 4th doubleheader between those teams. The Dodgers won both games and it seemed like heaven. Then later in the summer the roof fell in. Yes I remember that year. My God, think of going from the penthouse to the outhouse in all of a month and a half.
That's OK, the Dodgers' basement Bertha moved in with the Mets. :)
I pretty much slept through 1951 myself ... looks like I didn't miss much. Heh.
You didn't miss much because you were a young tyke. I wished I could have missed the last part of that season myself because it made for a long winter. I'm extreme in my likes and dislikes and it made an 11 year old boy almost a psychotic when Thomson hit that home run.
Almost?!?! Heh.
Sssssshhhhhhh. Keep it quiet. I don't want it to get out. Have a great day.
So both yooze guyz were born in 1951? What were your earliest transit memories you can clearly recall? And the year? Like you do you have any memory at all of the Church Avenue trolley (gone when you were 5)? Or what?
Hey, not me Paul. I wa born in 1940 and I remember all the trolleys. Brooklyn was a much nicer place then, but from what I've seen on my last two trips to New York it looks like it is making a comeback.
I've made some trips to Brooklyn, lately. Walking, not just riding. And yes, I see many signs of its coming back. The borough still has "the spirit." It's something special. It takes people to want it to happen, and it is.
Frankly, the '50s and '60s were a dismal time in Brooklyn. Sure, there was a lot of good stuff still around, but it was visibly on the decline. It was like discovering this great candy store, and every week the shelves got emptier and emptier...
I'm really convinced that the event that really set Brooklyn on its heels was the departure of the Dodgers to California. The Dodgers and Brooklyn were synonomous and it gave the borough its identity. It is very hard to the later two generations to understand that, but it was true. I know of many Brooklyn fans here in California who never took to the Dodgers western style. I'm one of them.
I don't know to what extent the Dodgers leaving was cause and what extent effect.
However, I argue that three events in three years--1955 - Brooklyn Eagle folded; 1956 - last trolley; 1957 - Dodgers' last season--marked important moments in Brooklyn's decline as an entity distinct from NYC.
However, it appears to me that a real sense of "Brooklyn-ness" is on the rebound.
BTW--I don't want to bore the youngun's with "boring stories of glory days" but there is one other thing that seemed to end in the era when the Dodgers left Brooklyn--a connectedness between a baseball team and its community. Many of the Dodgers players lived in the neighborhood and a few even welcomed visits from admiring kids (within reason). It was easy to meet ballplayers leaving the park. The worst that would happen was that you wouldn't approach certain players who had a reputation of not wanting to be bothered and maybe you'd suffer a "not now, kid." But often you could get an autograph or six seconds of chitchat, even if it was just a "thanks, buddy" to a "you were great." That a player would harass you or throw something at you was unheard of.
Of course, in those days too, none of us kids ever got an autograph and immediately put it up on eBay. ;-)
For us in the Bronx, it was the Webster Avenue trolley, the Kingsbridge, Fordham and Broadway trolleys were gone by the time I was popped out ... so I take it you Brooklyn guys had trolley technology also? Indoor plumbing too? :)
We had plumbing. But you Bronckers had INDOORS? What was it like?
I'm sure it would have been a lot better if they had hooked up PIPES to it ... but we had our "umbrella, two dollah" so no problemo. Heh.
I'm surprised nobody came back so far explaining why the team was called the "Dodgers" in the first place. The team name was once "Brooklyn xxxxxxx Dodgers" ... who wants to step up to the plate? (wouldn't be right for a Bronx boy to speak the unspoken word yet it would bring this thread sorta back on topic however briefly) :)
Brooklyn TROLLEY Dodgers.
We HAVE a winner! :)
"BTW, I'm also a 1951 model."
I'm also a 1951 model, August 4th to be exact. Yes, I'll be turning 50 (five-O) along with Q Brightliner and Selkirk. Imagine that, we'll be half a century !
Bill "Newkirk"
ANd we're going to outlive the redbirds ... woohoo! (woo woo?)
What is the date of your birth? I'm a figfger filbert with a photographic memory. Maybe I can tell you what happened that day.
*I* happened, wasn't that enough? January 15th ... MLK day ...
OK, I will drop it. BTW, it was a Monday I believe.
Remember it well Newkirk. It was a Saturday and I listened to Red Barber announcing another Dodger win that day. Later a bunch of us went out and played stickball. It was a warm and very humid day. No kidding.
DOB was August 4,1941......10:51PM
My brother was born 4 years earlier on August 7th, 1947 at 11:03PM.
We were night babies as you can see.
Bill "Newkirk"
Correction: 1951 not 1941
Newkirk, Selkirk and Brightliner..........members of the "Filthy Fifties Club" !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Uh-oh ... now everybody knows there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with us. :)
Your brother was born on a Wednesday, and you were born in 1951. And thanks for the Sea Beach survival kit.
Fred, that's phenomenol. Did the Dodgers win on May 3, 1951, too?
May 3, 1951
Is that your birthday? I was born on May 3, 1971. So that would make me exactly 20 years your junior.
Just turned 30.
:-) Andrew
You got me there. That I'm not sure of. I know the Dodgers were 9-8 after 17 games and then went on a tear, so it was hit or miss on that date.
Bill, I just went through the big five o on May 3. As Mel Allen would have said, "Now how about that?"
No, your D train would still have been running R1/9s into the mid-1970s had it not been routed through the Brighton. It got all that BMT Brightliner equipment because it hooked up with the Brighton. In fact, the D is not even good enough to go express on the Brighton anymore because the real original BMT Brighton Express, the Q, is #1.
Heh. Bust 'em if ya got 'em ... and no problem for me with the R1/9's. I even volunteered for duty on them since they just shouted out "IND" ... I woulda been just as happy but then most everyone here knows that I'm not a well person.
For the record, though most of us here already know, the southern Brooklyn sections of the (B)(D)(F) and (N) are all BMT. HOWEVER, all but the (N) turn into INDs by the time they reach Manhattan, the (F) doing so considerably earlier than the others. The (N) remains a BMT throughout Manhattan, but turns into (essentially) an IRT shortly after entering Queens.
:-) Andrew
NYC Transit's B division faces chronic capacity issues related to car maintenance and storage. Currently, B division demand for subway car storage exceeds secure yard capacity. Also, only six maintenance shops support the B division's 3,233 cars, which are distributed unevenly among them. For example, the Jamaica shop has more than 1,000 cars. In addition, NYC Transit's lack of adequate work train storage and staging facilities in Queens and within close proximity of Manhattan often cause delays to scheduled service. The opening of the Queens Boulevard Line Connector and resumption of full service over the Manhattan Bridge will significantly increase the agency's dependence on mainline storage of trains and strain the capacity of the Jamaica and Coney Island maintenance shops. NYC Transit hopes to address these issues through a phased development of a new yard. Phase 1 is budgeted at $105 million, and the remainder of the development will occur after 2004.
Any ideas as to where the yard will be put?
Sunnyside, connected to the Queens Blvd. Local tracks along Broadway. This was discussed last year, although I'm not sure if this is official.
The old LIRR 'a' freight yard (next to amtrak's sunnyside)??? I thought that was going to be used by the LIRR for MU storage when GCT service begins...
There was talk about using the Sunnyside yards near Queens Blvd., and there are bellmouths off the new 63rd St. tunnel that could go over there. A ram down from the Flushing line tracks was also talked about, though I'm not sure what the major benefit of that would be unless they plan to put a major repair facility there that the No. 7 train could use instead of CI.
A Test function.
John.
This is an important issue, since we do want to keep vandals off the trains...
old redbirds? strange work equipment? I'm considering making a trip down there soon to kill some film and could use a heads up on if it's worth the trip...
-joe
Don't think a trip is advisable just yet. Once the Redbirds go to scrap the yards will be quite busy.
Right now there is alot of track being laid in anticipation of the forthcoming Redbird Purge.
You might be able to get some shots of MOW equipment laying track, etc., but that's about it right now. Gotta wait till later in the year for the Redbird action to start...
BMTman
I was there last weekend. All that is left is two "Q Cars". They are still laying track for the redbirds.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure if the redbird purge began yet. any idea when it might?
Probably once there are alot more R-142 and 142A sightings. The Redbirds are still prevalent on the 2/5/7 lines, so until things change drastically on those lines you won't see any action at the SBK yard.
BMTman
Photos of Q cars at SBK yard taken last weekend.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
old low vs & hi vs ?? .......??
No, these were "B" division (actually, ex-BRT) cars. They did some time on the IRT (2nd and 3rd Avenue, also Flushing and Astoria) joint services and retired in 1969 on the Myrtle.
wayne
Wayne, actually the ones sitting in the SBK yard were last used on the South Brooklyn Line as rider cars. After they were retired from SBK duty, they just sat out on a far corner of Coney Island Yards, later being moved to their present location in the SBK yard (at least that was what I was told).
BMTman
"Wayne, actually the ones sitting in the SBK yard were last used on the South Brooklyn Line as rider cars."
DEJA VU Mr.BMTman ?
I guess we had a conversation about this recently if you recall. Something about these Qs actually the ENY assigned pump train ?
I never heard of rider cars on SBK, only on the TA Maintenance of Way.
Is the fog lifting Douggie ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Get that man a whiz bottle ... :)
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.:-)
ok send them to a museum ??
They're probably too far gone to restore. NYCT Museum has at least ONE "Q" car (painted blue and orange) and I think there is at least one or more in some of the other museums. Check the Museum Roster page
to see where they might be hiding.
wayne
oh well !! ( thanks )
One of the Q cars is in Kingston NY at the Trolley Museum of NY ...
http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/
Are those Q cars still operational? If so, what are they used for?
---Dave
They are useless hulks. They merely hold sentimental value as the wood bodies are nearly rotted completely through.
The trucks and other metal parts might be salvagable, but they too have been sitting out in the elements for decades.
BMTman
Please MTA leave all thats there, I need something to do after school, also let me have my steel time.
In case you missed this article in the NY Times, UP doesnt want to have anything to do with Microsoft Train Simulator:
http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_0-1006-200-5903747.html
John.
Although I'm swamped this time of year with studying for those god forsaken AP and SAT I and SAT II standardized tests, I still got chance to catch the Sunday Acela Express at Linden NJ. I was visiting my grandma, so I just so happened to be on the platform at the right time as the AE blew past at about 110 mph.
Acela Express at Linden (358K)
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
I'm booked on the Acela Express next Sunday from Baltimore to Newark. Hopefully will have some shots to upload...
Dude, go to www.eastrailnews.com and SUBMIT your photo to the dailydigital image guy. You can send it as is w/ no compression. This is an amazing photo. Great light, great location and great material.
Well, it certainly was blew past! Great shot with the newspaper floating there in the breeze!
John.
Great shot, just cropt it and it became my wallpaper for this week!
Dan,
Has weekend service finally begun on AE? I saw a trainset in the Amtrak Yard in Boston yesterday as I was on my college shuttle bus on I-93. -Nick
Weekend service started April 29.
Acela schedule
Superb shot.
The forth coach back seems to have a different window line. Is this possiblely a club or dinner car?
The contrasts of the old track bed with wooden ties and the new track bed with concret ties is a 10,000 word story in itself.
BRAVO!
avid
That is the cafe car.
Chaohwa
Track 0 is not on an old bed. Track 0 is for NJT local trains and upgrading it to concrete ties does not warrent the cost, given the level and type of service that on Track 0 and Track 5 between ELMORA and UNION.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by NJ Transit. (First 50 people to show up get free passes!)
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
blockfront projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Preservation Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored facade
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Can anybody tell me which lines are served by which yards? The only ones I know for certain:
Jamaica (Kew Gardens, technically)-E,F,G,R (and soon the V, which will displace the G to Stillwell, I think)
Corona-7
Yup. I'm a Queens man.
Any help would be appreciated.
:-) Andrew
Oh! And I know that the J/Z, L, and M all use East New York. And maybe the M also uses Stillwell.
:-) Andrew
I'll try to break it down for you.
1/9 Lines
240th St Yard
2 Line
239th St Yard
3, Times Sq Shuttle Lines
Livonia/Lenox Yards
4 Line
Jerome/Concourse/Livonia Yards
5 Line
East 180th St and Unionport/239th St/Livonia Yards
6 Line
Westchester Yard
7 Line
Corona Yard
A,C, Rockaway Park Shuttle Lines
207th St, Pitkin, Rockaway Park Yards
B and D Lines
Concourse/Coney Island Yards
E Line
Jamaica Yard
F Line
Jamaica/Coney Island Yards
G Line
Jamaica Yard
J,L,Z Lines
East NY/Canarsie Yards
M Line
East NY, Fresh Pond, Coney Island Yards
N, Q, Franklin Shuttle Lines
Coney Island Yard
R Line
Jamaica Yard
That's it in a nutshell. I hope this helps.
-Stef
Thanks, Stef!
:-) Andrew
2s also use Livonia Yard, or at least rent space there. The barn at Livonia is for the 3 and 42nd St Shuttle
A: 207/Pitkin
B: Concourse/Coney Island/38th Street
C: 207/Pitkin
D: Concourse/Coney Island
E: Jamaica
F: Jamaica/Coney Island
G: Jamaica
J: East New York
L: East New York, Rockaway Park
M: East New York, Lutheran, Coney Island
N: Coney Island
Q: Coney Island
R: Jamaica
Z: See "J"
Franklin Shuttle: Coney Island
R'way Shuttle : Pitkin
IRT
I have included the color bands as an added bonus for the IRT yards.
1/9-238th Street (red)
2-239th Street (black)
3/S-Lenox/Linovia (blue)
4-Jerome (orange)
5-East 180th/Unionport (green)
6-Pelham (yellow)
7-Corona (purple)
BMT/IND
A-207th/Pitkin
B-CI/Concourse
C-Pitkin
D-CI/Concourse
E-Jamacia
F-Jamacia/CI
G-Jamacia
J/Z-ENY
L-ENY
M-ENY
N-CI
Q-CI
R-Jamacia
Franklin-CI
Rockway-Pitkin
Future:
G will move to CI
B and D will become Concourse only
V will be Jamacia
W will be CI
Both Qs will be CI
Your future line up is assuming that the "G" will not serve Queens Blvd anymore. That's yet to be determined.
"B" also uses 38th Street Yard
"M" uses Lutheran and Coney Island as well as ENY.
"C" uses 207 as well as Pitkin, the main reason for the B/C terminal swap in 1998.
38th st. yard is really not for revenue trains. True, some B's do rest there, but mainly it is used for work equipment.
At least three (3) 8 car MUs signed for "B" revenue service rest at 38th Street. They are early AM put ins, which start collecting passengers at 36th Street.
If these trains are revenue MUs, which they are, then 38th Street must be counted as a "B" yard.
The formal name of the storage yd for the M is Fresh Pond yd. ENY handles maintenance.
>>The formal name of the storage yd for the M is Fresh Pond yd<<
Oh, now I get it. Lutheran is another one of those 'fake yards'. There are only 6 real B division yards: Coney Island, 207th St., Pitkin, Concourse, East New York and Jamaica. Roakaway Park yard, Rockaway Parkway, Linden Shops, and 36-38th st. are not real yards (Linden shops and 38th are, but not for revenue trains). They merely lay-up trains. They have no real facilities if any at all.
Correct! There is a Lutheran cemetery next to the Metropolitan ave station. I guess that's where the person I responded to got the name.
During the dual contract days, Fresh Pond Yard was known as Lutheran. It's still called Lutheran by some people who refuse to use today's name to identify lines, such as using West End instead of "B", Sea Beach instead of "N", Brighton instead of "D" and Culver instead of "F".
I'm one of those people, even though am 30.
I am aware of the thing with the G.
I wasn't sure if I should put 207 under C so I played it safe.
The complete list, including temporary daily storage yards with very few or zero facilities. Star indicates main maintenance yard.
A-*207/*Pitkin/Rockaway Park---------Most equipment handled by 207 with some R44's controlled by Pitkin
B-Concourse/*Coney Island/38 Street/Stillwell Yard
C-207/174/*Pitkin
D-*Concourse/Stillwell Yard/Coney Island for storage only
E-*Jamaica
F-*Jamaica/Avenue X Yard
G-*Jamaica
J-*East New York
L-*East New York/Canarsie
M-*East New York/Fresh Pond/Coney Island for storage only
N-*Coney Island (City Hall Yard is closed)
Q-*Coney Island/Stillwell Yard
R-*Jamaica
Franklin Shuttle-*Coney Island
Rk Park Shuttle-*Pitkin/Rockaway Park
1-*240 Street/137 Street
2-*239 Street/Livonia Yard for occasional storage only
3-*Livonia/Lenox
4-*Mosholu
5-*East 180 St/Livonia & 239 Street for storage
6-*Westchester
7-*Corona
Could This be added to the FAQ at some point?
"F"s are only shopped at Jamaica? I thought it was split with Avenue X at Coney.
Avenue X Yard (Tracks 89 to 107) is only a storage area on the far right hand side of Coney Island Yard. Absolutely no maintenance of the F line outside of main shop work is performed at CIYD/AvX.
FYI, 106 & 107 tracks have no 3rd rail and are used for work trains only. Avenue X Yard was also known as Culver Yard and City Yard.
So all SMS and all maintenance work for the "F" is done at Jamaica, and all work for the "D" is done at Concourse?
Then Coney/Avenue X is just a lay up/staging/put ins for the D and F. SMS and all other work for the B and N is then done at Coney/Avenue X.
>>>So all SMS and all maintenance work for the "F" is done at Jamaica, and all work for the "D" is done at Concourse?
Correct.
>>>Then Coney/Avenue X is just a lay up/staging/put ins for the D and F. SMS and all other work for the B and N is then done at Coney/Avenue X.
90% correct.
The Avenue X Yard is just a storage area that is exclusively used by the F line. AvX has no maintenance facilities.
The B & N has maintenance performed and lay-ups at Coney Island. And the D has sporadic lay-ups at Coney Island Yard, usually when STL Yard is full. However, the majority of D lay-ups in Brooklyn are at Stillwell Yard.
Stillwell Yard, Avenue X Yard, and Coney Island Yard occupy the same land, but they just have different names to distinguish them.
Any R68A SMS/work done for the "B's" MUs at Concourse at any time?
Forgot to mention that some maintenance work on the 4 line is also handled by Concourse Yard in the B division.
38 Street Yard is the main base for work trains.
B's layup at 38th?
When and Why?
7 days a week, three B trains lay up at 38 Street Yard. Two of them come after making a one way shuttle run to 36 Street around midnight, the other is brought by the Stillwell Switchman. The three B trains are then picked up on the AM shift by road crews with the crews signing on between 3:45 AM and 4:30 AM.
So that's the reason for the trains on the B timetable that seem to appear from out of nowhere at 36th St in the AM.
Thanks.
I miss the full timetables that used to be posted on the web. These .pdf files are crap.
Corrections/Questions:
A- No R44's operate out of 207th. (Ok, maybe a few). All R44's operate out of Pitkin. R38's operate out of 207th. R32's on 8th av. express and Fulton Local are split up between these two yards.
B- 38th st. is really a 'maintenence of way yard'. The B trains sopping there are really just lay-ups.
C- Any R38's on the C come from 207th. Thus, It's safe to say that 207th is also a main yard for the C. What is 174th yard?
N- are they going to re-open the lay-up tracks at City Hall?
1- Is 242 bigger than 137? Always thought the reverse was true. Do they still run some 1's to 137th?
>>>A- No R44's operate out of 207th. (Ok, maybe a few). All R44's operate out of Pitkin. R38's operate out of 207th. R32's on 8th av. express and Fulton Local are split up between these two yards.
All R32's are Pitkin cars. And 207 controls more R44's than you'd think.
>>>What is 174th yard?
174th St Yard is the area north of 168 Street that is used for overnight C layups (about 7 tracks). At one time, it used to have it's own tower and even had one or two yard moves performed. Now it's controlled by 207 St Master Tower.
>>>N- are they going to re-open the lay-up tracks at City Hall?
Haven't heard anything about it. Will let you know if any news pops up.
>>>1- Is 242 bigger than 137? Always thought the reverse was true. Do they still run some 1's to 137th?
Don't remember. And 1's don't terminate at 137, they run "light" from 242.
137St Yard have only 5 tracks which can store two whole trains on each track. 240St Yard have about 20 tracks (6 barn tracks.) And trains run light from 242 down to 137St Yard.
>>>All R32's are Pitkin cars. And 207 controls more R44's than you'd think.
There's only one way to prove this though, if someone has a car/yard list.
>>There's only one way to prove this though, if someone has a car/yard list.<<
zman:
1. there is a car roster on TheJoeKorNer.
2. I've been to 207th yard with my dad (An Instructor for the MTA who has access to ALL MTA yards.) and I've only seen maybe 1 or 2 sets of R-44's.
R-32's do operate out of 207th.
Just remebered something that proves that R-32's op. out of 207: Mixed R-38/R-32 consists. R-38's only come from 207th. There must be R-32's in 207th then. The R-44's are kept at Pitkin for the Rockaway shuttle.
Sidenote: The A is running some complete R-32 trains.
There are just 10 R-32s in the 207th St fleet. But there is no reason why the yardmaster in Pitkin or in 207th St can't mix the fleets whether they are based there or not.
>>There are just 10 R-32s in the 207th St fleet. But there is no reason why the yardmaster in Pitkin or in 207th St can't mix the fleets whether they are based there or not.<<
For one it's a pain. Mixing up trains with cars from different yards is a pain. It means that the train isn't controlled by any one yard. If there were deferred maintenence, then this might be logical. But otherwise, there is no reason for there to be mixed consists of R-32's and R-38's, especially when there is a number of A trains with 4 R-38's and 6 R-32's and then others with all R-38's and R-32's.
According to the car roster sheet on TheJoeKorNer, (AS of May, 1998):
CI:
118 R-32
244 R-40S
143 R-68
200 R-68A
Jamaica:
312 R-32
752 R-46
ENY:
48 R-40S
100 R-40M
392 R-42
Concourse
282 R-68
207th:
10 R-32
196 R-38
118 R-29-GE (an error I think, as it isn't logical, nor included in the total for 207th)
9 R-110B (....)
Pitkin
154 R-32
278 R-44
74 R-46 (Another error)
Totals:
CI: 705
Jam: 1064
ENY: 540
CON: 282
207th: 215
PIT: 432
(Note, IRT cars in Concourse were omitted)
Now then, I was wrong about the R-32's, but right about the R-44's. I've never really seen too many '44s in 207th. 207th seems to have very few cars, which is strange considering that it is one of the major overhaul shops. Does anyone know if other cars are occasionally sent to 207th for maintenence? It Also seems that any dead cars go to 207th.
And in another post (outside this thread) someone said that cars from Flushing to the Mainline go through concourse. Some also go through 207th.
No, redbirds are banned from the upper #1 line. There are bulletins about this posted. Some sort of clearance problem came about, probaly from new tunnel lighting or something like that
I thought they fixed that problem?
-Stef
They did fixed that problem. Redbirds can travel on the 1 line north of 96St.
>>>Now then, I was wrong about the R-32's, but right about the R-44's.
No you weren't. Wednesday I was making moves with R44 cars into the barn at 207 Street to be worked on.
P.S. That list needs to be updated by Joe.
Besides, it doesn't matter who's "wrong" or "right".
But that JoeKorner list needs to be updated BAD.
240 Yard is bigger than 137. 240 has a six track barn and tracks 7 thru 21 outside on the structure (240 is the only yard on a true el). 137 St has 5 tracks, each capable of holding two ten car trains.
Purposely misreading your question, at this time all 1s run to 137 St - and then keep on going. The only service that terminates at 137 is four 3 trains that then go into service at 137 in the morning rush.
174 Yard is a small (5 tracks) yard located north of the 168 st station on the A/C.
Those four 3 trains actually terminate at 96St-Bway. Then they run light to 137St.
Have any of the many layup tracks found thruout the system ever been used for layups?
I've spotted MOW work trains on them, but never passenger consists.
Was their original intent to have the trains pre-positioned prior to the rush, but ended do to vandalism and vagrants?
avid
It depends on the area that you are talking about. Clarify further.
The 1 has a regular lay-up located at X410 just south of Van Cortlandt on 4 Track, during the midnights.
When events call for having crewed trains ready en-route, a gap train can be found at Times Sq spur (M Track south of TS), as well as the 59St spur (upper level between 59 St and 68 St). they can also put trains on 4 Track at the Shuttle and put them into service at 50 St or Times Sq (reverse move on 4 Track Mainline).
These are just the ones I know of: I'm sure there are others, especially in the B, that I don't.
Maintenance:
1/9: 240th Street
2: 239th Street
3: Livonia
4: Mosholu
5: E.180St
6: Westchester
7: Corona
Storage/Lay-ups
1/9: 137th Street
2: Livonia
3: Lenox/137*
4: Livonia/Concourse**
5: Unionport/239/Livonia
6: Westchester
7: Corona
*: Put-ins @ 137/Bway
**: There are about four 4 trains that lay up in Concourse Yard. (For some strange reason, I always see Redbirds over there.)
Im sure the IND/BMT people can help out for their divsion.
Whenever the new pick goes into effect in the A Div (tentativly scheduled for late August) the four 3 trains currently at 137/B'way will move to E.180/Unionport and become put-ins from E.180.
[Here's a copy of the e-mail I just sent out to those who have expressed an interest in the upcoming Chicago field trip over Labor Day weekend. If you're interested in joining us and did not recieve this e-mail, then you're probably not on the mailing list. To get on the mailing list, send me a message at DavidCole@NthWard.com with your full name so I can add you to the list.]
Greetings, all...
Sorry it's been a while since I've been in touch. I seem to have been sidetracked on about a million other things, but believe it or not, I haven't forgotten about the SubTalk filed trip to Chicago. Here's the latest lowdown:
ITINERAY:
Friday evening, August 31st:
Arrive in Chicago and get settled
Trip to Sears Tower Skydeck after dark
Dinner at Tedino's, an excellent pizzeria in my neighborhood
Get-together at my lovely apartment in Edgewater
Saturday, September 1st:
Breakfast at Lou Mitchell's
Railfan Day at Illinois Railway Museum!
Return to city in the evening for dinner and sightseeing/railfanning
Catching a show at The Second City if people are interested.
Possible late night of clubbing for those who are interested.
Sunday, September 2nd:
Metra Electric / South Shore in the morning (depending on how the timetable works out).
Railfanning on the L
Monday, September 3rd:
Metra Rock Island train to Joliet, Heritage Corridor train back into city.
Architectural walking tour of the Chicago Loop
That concludes the "official" field trip, but people are certainly welcome to stay in town and continue sightseeing through Monday evening. There's certainly no possibility of running out of things to see.
Feedback / comments / suggestions about the above itinerary are most welcome.
LODGING:
I'm checking around to see which hotels have the best rates. Doesn't look like there's too many bed & breakfasts that are big enough for our group (I've got about 30 people on this mailing list!), so I'm concentrating my search on downtown hotels close to the L. According to Travelocity.com, it looks like the best deal is actually the Chicago Hyatt at about $120 a night. I'll continue to check some of the other hotels and inquire about their group rates, but I wouldn't count on the room rates being less than $80-100 a night. Since we have about 24 non-Chicagoans on the list, I'll probably reserve about 12 rooms.
IMPORTANT: Let me know if: A) You won't be able to make the trip, B) You either live in Chicago or otherwise have your own lodging arrangements, or C) You can't stand the thought of sharing a hotel room with another railfan. Otherwise, I'll assume that everybody on the mailing list is interested in sharing a room and splitting the cost. Once I've made the reservations, I can coordinate who all needs a room to share, etc.
TRAVEL:
By air: Both Midway and O'Hare have convenient connections to the CTA. The Orange Line goes to Midway, the Blue Line goes to O'Hare. Midway tends to have cheaper fares on airlines like ATA and Southwest, while O'Hare is served by the major airlines. United and American seem to have the most frequent flights from New York. Given a choice, I usually prefer to use O'Hare because it's a much nicer airport and the connection to the Blue Line is very easy.
By rail: I know a few of you true railfans will be arriving on Amtrak. Union Station is right downtown, with easy access to to the L.
By car: If you arrive by car, be prepared to spend huge amounts of money for parking. Not the reccomended way to travel if you're staying downtown.
Once I've made reservations at a particular hotel, I'll send out directions on how to get to that hotel from the Blue Line and from Union Station.
ILLINOIS RAILWAY MUSEUM:
I was just out there for the first time this past weekend, and you guys are in for an incredible afternoon! For those of you who were at Seashore last summer, IRM is probably about 2-3 times the size. I noticed some grills and picnic tables out there, so a nice barbeque sounds like a perfect way to have lunch that afternoon, assuming the weather cooperates. I'll be sure to ask about that, as well as group rates for admission and/or free admission to memebers of other rail museums (Seashore, Branford, etc.).
Depending on how many are going, we may have to look at renting a van for the trip out there. My car seats four people comfortably (five uncomfortably). If any other Chicago SubTalkers are able to provide transportation out there, let me know how many you can carry.
That's about it for now. I'll keep you updated on the hotel situation, and let you know as soon as possible what I find out.
-- David
Chicago, IL
One more thing:
Regarding the IRM trip, it would be nice to have an IRM "insider" to help us get our hands dirty. Last summer at Seashore, we were very fortunate to have Todd Glickmann and Tim Speer to show us around. If anybody is interested, let me know.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
Would you also entertain the idea to include for the Chicago field trip a extra day (for those who can take time off) to tour the St. Louis Metrolink? With the new St. Clair County IL extension recently opened, this line has interesting scenery of running through farmland in Illinois, crossing the Mississippi on the lower deck of Eads Bridge, and running underground in Downtown thru a 100 year old railway tunnel. Finally, the open cut section between Delmar and Kingshighway station has a nice view of old brick homes and apartments.
You're welcome to organize a group to check out St. Louis either before or after the Chicago trip, but I won't be able to make it down there at that time. Even though it's only at the other end of the Illinoi, St. Louis is still a pretty good distance from Chicago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
<< St. Louis is still a pretty good distance from Chicago. >>
Correct. It's a good 5 - 6 hour drive, depending upon the number of rest breaks you take. I suppose you could leave Chicago at 6:00 a.m, be in St. Louis around noon and then tour Metrolink, but unless you had a late flight out of Lambert airport, you'd want to spend the evening.
---Dave
David, I've been a member for years. I know people who can get us into the barns where the public is ordinarily not allowed. Overall, though, the entire facility is open to the public (as you know since you just visited).
---Dave
David your organizational skills wow me. I hope you don't mind this Chicagoan's unsolicited comments.
There have to be cheaper rooms than the Hyatt, the Congress Plaza has cheap- if dumpy rooms. That hotel at Harrison and Wabash looks like s**t from the outside but has clean, cheap, no-nonsense rooms. The newly opened Hostel on Congress has really cheap beds, if you don't mind bunking with five other folks. These last two have nice views of the L too.
I'd might go with the Hancock instead of the Sears, it's right on the Lake, unless the Sears has a good view of some railyards.
I don't own a car, and I don't think I can make this trip
What if I arrive by plane from logan airport?
Sorry, but flights from Logan Airport aren't permitted to land in Chicago. You'll probably have to fly through someplace like Milwaukee or Singapore.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well I don't live in singapore or milwaukee But I can take the lake shore limited to chicago.
Just dropped by thejoeKorner.com on my end of shift ritual, and low and behold, he has a drawing there of the proposed new Stillwell Terminal as published in the TA employee rag, "At Your Service."
Here's where to go peek ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/stillwell.gif
Wonder what model subway cars those are in the drawing? :)
--Mark
"Wonder what model subway cars those are in the drawing?"
They do look like the new SEPTA M-4s !! YIKES !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the one on the right looks like an M-4, but the one on the left looks like an Almond Joy missing 3 humps. So, whoever drew that must have visited Philly.
I took a look a the drawing of the proposed renovation of the Stillwell Ave. terminal in Coney island and it looks very nice on "paper".
BMTJeff
First time I've seen any rendering at all of it ... looks almost European in a way. It'd be nice if there are better drawings of it to peek at somewhere but was glad to see that much. Now the question remains are those R172's or R178's on the approaches? :)
You can guess which cars they are but they could also be R-143s or R-160s. My guess is as good as yours.
BMTJeff
Don't mind me, just trying to play the game ... I don't think they've started drawing R172's and R178's and my luck, both R numbers will end up being tail pipes or wooden bench seat GOH's. :)
One of the trains look like R-40's
One of the trains look like R-40's
I like the design. Evokes a classic terminal train shed. Apparently people will be better shielded from the elements during those sudden summer thunderstorms than in past years. I hope the TA doesn't go through some future era of deferred maintenance where the drains along those are allowed to clog or rot. The results could be unpleasant.
I thought there was to be a ninth track through the station as a bypass. Don't see it. Anyone know if that was just an unfounded rumor?
There might be ... one of the common outputs of a political agency's internal sausage works is a byproduct called "artist's renderings."
A ninth (bypass) track was under discussion during the design phase but was cut due to cost considerations.
David
There's an excellent article on the future of Amtrak in this week's on-line National Corridor Initiative's Destination:Freedom newsletter
Saw & touched a prototype of the MTH R-21 at Branford this Saturday.
The two guys that brought it to show it off have had something to do with it's mfg. (one helped them with some of the technical details, the other lent his voice to the announcements that you'll here & Branford's own R-17 horn will be the toot you here). I was there the day they were blowing it in the shop to do the recording.
We all enjoyed seeing it very much. MTH has done a realy fine job here ... except for the PCC type bell ... apparently someone in the mngt. of MTH insusted that the car have a bell.
BTW, the car we saw was the unpowered version.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, I must concur with Mr. T.
I got a good look at them too.... and man, do they look GREAT! Rivet detailing is accurate (they got the roof right -- finally). Only items that need to be added for the 'expert detailer' would be the storm-door saftey-gates and perhaps more realistic grab-irons as the ones on the model were merely indicated on the plastic body.
BTW, the cars are marked on the ends for either Flatbush Avenue or E.241 Street (current #2 line configuration).
Might as well point out the only -- yet major flaw -- as far as the 'purist modeler' is concerned: these R-21 sets are done up in the current Redbird paint scheme which is inaccurate since the R-21's did not go through the GOH program. The connudrum for MTH was that they did not want to have to get caught-up in doing 'married-pair' sets of cars as that would have met with more tooling costs (different underside detailing, separate 'blank' end pieces, etc.). Keeping cars as single-units was easier for them on a manufacturing standpoint. The Redbird paint-scheme was used simply to 'pay homage' to the cars that are soon to be 'deeped sixed' which are essentially similar in all other respects.
I am really looking forward to getting my set. Expect them to arrive at local hobby shops within the next two months.
Rumor has it that the hobby shop on Merrick Road in Freeport has an advance order for 200 sets!
BMTman
I think most of the entire run is sold out. My local store said they could only get me one (I got the last one they had on reserve), so I had to scrounge through various mail-order stores to get a second set for my 8-car train.
Considering the length of an 8 car train - you must have a fairly sizable layout. On my meager layout 6-cars is about all I can handle. The real question is, are you going to remove one E-unit and make the second motor car a slave? There are too many intangibles that could cars to run in opposite directions, to leave it to chance.
I'm planning on doing that with the R-42's I have. When Digital Dynamics finally comes out with their "Equalizer" unit, it can be set up so one Engine controls the other. The Equalizer unit in the "master" loco replaces the middle board in the 3-layer QSI/Protosound-1 "sandwich" (so you retain your station sounds and stop sequences) and smaller board, which receives signals from the first one COMPLETELY replaces the E-unit in the second loco. Being that I have one R-42 with Protosound and one without, this will be a perfect solution.
As far as what to do about the R-21's with two locos...I'll have to see what idiosyncracies these units have in operation before I lash them together full-time. I can see your concern about the reverse units changing direction unexpectedly. What I might do to minimize this is use the pickup rollers from the front unit to power the second unit instead of using the second unit's own rollers...that way, they both get the exact same signal. Plus...If I eventually run these trains in command mode (via the upcoming DCS unit), there should be fewer concerns about reverse unit problems, since the track voltage remains constant. Once the R-42's are converted, they will run in command mode via the Lionel TMCC system.
As far as my layout: its actually very simple. It's a big overhead, suspended loop running around my living room and dining room. There are a couple of sidings for extra trains and provisions for an eventual yard. (Those Ross/Curtis switches are quite costly.) In the living room, there's a station done in Dual Contracts style whimsically labelled "Living Room" on the mosaics. All of the track has power connections every few feet (on the underside of the Gargraves track) to minimize power dropouts and/or spikes.
Your layout sounds interesting. Do you have any photos? Mine is about 8 months into the construction phase. Roughly 2.5 scale miles of Main Line subway is operational including a 4 track el section. I've just begun the construction on the Class I RR that will make up the entire upper level. Centerpiece of the lass I is a 9' long bridge made up of Lionel Arch Under Bridges and MTH Steel Arch Bridge. Despite the fact that the layout is about 14' X 20', Some prototypical grades make running more than 6 cars a liability. On the subway segment, I used 15 Gargrave 0-42 switches. I did use 2 #6 Ross Switches and a Ross 4 track Yard track. I am so happy with the way the ross switches perform, my class I will be all Ross Switches.
I wish I had photographed it before I ripped the track out. I had a hodgepodge of Lionel, Atlas, and MTH track; I bought a big case of Gargraves and am currently re-doing it. (I also replaced the MRC transformer with a new ZW and IC Controls modules to automate the station stop sequence completely.) I will probably use the Atlas switches temporarily until I replace them with Ross or Curtis. (The kind of blend in, but not completely.)
I definitely plan to photograph it when I finish the trackwork.
I'm trying to put together an activity for chemistry students based on the Redbird reef controversy. For my activity I would need the students to be able to find vehicle specs for a Rebird somehwere online, ideally to get a vague idea how much asbestos is actually in one Redbird. I could use such a resource because arguments for or against the reef plan seem to hinge on this question.
Also, I could use a jpg of a Redbird, as the activity I want to make would be part of a website. Could one of the SubTalk staff fill me in on the use terms for an image from this site?
Mark
Feel free to use one from my website www.zdeno.com.
I have about 80 images of redbirds.
-Harry
What gave you the impression I had a staff?
-Dave
>>What gave you the impression I had a staff?
Doesn't every system admin have one? You know the device you use to hit the server when it is acting up (or the router or the switch)...
[What gave you the impression I had a staff?]
Maybe he's seen you walking around with it....;-D
Oooooooh... someone musta seen me reading
SubTALK while wearing a white T shirt
with STAFF written in black letters...
.......and I don't even own a webcam!
:>
On Friday, I saw some R68 cars on the B. This was during the time when B trains terminate at 145th Street. Anyway the first 4 R68 cars had the north terminal roll showing translucent (equivalent to "white space" on other rollsigns), while the signs on the other 4 cars said the north terminal was "Bedford Park Boulevard/Bronx." Did the R68's come in with rollsigns that did NOT have 145th Street on the north terminal roll?
Also, I was on an N train of R68's on Friday. The first 4 cars had rollsigns that said for the north terminal "Astoria/Ditmars Blvd." Yup, these 4 cars have the new R68 signs that Train Dude spoke of a couple of months ago. I took a picture of the signs at Queensboro Plaza. (It's a shame they couldn't replace the "glass" on the exterior side.)
>>>Did the R68's come in with rollsigns that did NOT have 145th Street on the north terminal roll?
Yes, that is true, R68s have no 145th st on their roll signs. That is in the process of being changed though.
Peace,
ANDEE
R68A models have had the "145th St., Manhattan" sign, I am assuming since the cars in service date of 1988.
Yes, R68As have had them all along
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone have a complete listing
Thank you
Steve
From what I hear now, MS Train Sim is to be released Friday June 8th and the Guide book (Hints) is to be published Monday May 21st.
You can pre-order on Amazon for expected delivery (the game that is) on Tuesday June 12th (2nd day UPS).
Since the original theory of the IND lettering system has gone anywhere from corruption (C no longer goes to Washington Heights, double letters no longer mean local) to completely out the window (lines have switched terminals, M has been a southern division train and an eastern division train, J means Jamaica but Q means nothing) how might we assign letters today if we could start fresh?
I suggest:
A = Same as now, the IND's prime train, famous
B = Brighton Line (ex-Q, etc.)
C = Culver (ex-F)
F = Fourth Avenue Local (ex-R)
G = Greenpernt Local (still G, with new excuse)
J = Jamaica
M = Myrtle-Chambers
Q = Queens Express (ex-E)
R = Rockaway
S = Sea Beach
U = Utility Local (ex-C)
V = culVer Line (ex-F)
W = West End
X = BronX-Concourse Express (ex-D)
Y = New Queens Local (for "Y" Not?)
Z = Shuttles
Did I forget anything? I've got lots of letters left over. Please don't tell me: "people would never except this, etc., etc." I'm having fun. Anybody got other ideas?
Have fun with this? Sure, why not. There needs to be a "P" train on a route that goes where tourists want to go. So when a tourist says, "How do I get to the Empire State Building," you reply, "Take a P!"
[I hear that's the most often re-recorded segment on Wheel of Fortunte. "Pat, I'll take a P please." Pat says "Not in my studio!" then they do it over.]
>>"How do I get to the Empire State Building," you reply, "Take a P!"<<
And then after that, take a #2 on the IRT (nothing like subway bathroom humor).
You'd have to keep the N and R the same, given their "Never" and "Rarely" fame.
Cut that crap Pete and leave my Sea Beach alone. I cannot recall in my visits to New York of ever having to wait long for the Sea Beach. It could be that the powers-that-be knew Sea Beach Fred was in town and wanted to make a good impression, but I doubt. I think this never junk has just become a stereotype to bug us Sea Beach fans.
Cut that crap Pete and leave my Sea Beach alone. I cannot recall in my visits to New York of ever having to wait long for the Sea Beach. It could be that the powers-that-be knew Sea Beach Fred was in town and wanted to make a good impression, but I doubt it. I think this never junk has just become a stereotype to bug us Sea Beach fans.
Fred, being a Sea Beach fan myself I understand your POV, but being a regular NYC subway rider, they don't call 'em the Never and Rarely for nothing. Rush hour headways on the Broadway line are something like six or seven minutes (at least it seems that way) and when trains get backed up (constantly) it's quite possible to wait upwards of twenty minutes for a train at 59th/Lex going to Queens.
Dan
Maybe you're right Dan on the Queens angle, but heading to Brooklyn I have never had that problem. Still I have a solution. Make the Sea Beach an express and have them avoid some of those stations heading into Lexington and that might alleviate the problem somewhat. When the N gets into Queens, naturally, it becomes a local.
Naturally, according to the unwritten law that states that any train that is convenient for me to take to school must run local at all times, thus causing me to be late a lot.
Dan
I like what you call the "N" and the "R" trains (The Never and the Rarely) respectively. I have had that experience with those two former BMT line trains. At times it seems that you almost never get an "N" train and you rarely get an "R" train. I'm shur that you wish there was more subway service in Queens altogether. I think that there should be more service than they provide at this time. Maybe building some additional lines would be a help so that the residents of the eastern portion of Queens in particular won't always have to depend upon relatively slow buses to get around if they don't have a car.
BMTJeff
Last time I was in New York I found their roles to be reversed. It was a weekday morning around 9:30 or 10:00 or so. Downtown from 34th St., the R never came, the N came after about a 15-minute wait. At least it was an R68/A. It was quiet and comfortable once the crush abated.
What happened to Canarsie ("L")? And why does Culver get two letters, "C" and "V"? The Franklin Shuttle, for its historic importance, surely deserves its own letter. While we're at it, since the subway system has been unified since 1940, 61 years ago, why not design a unified letter or number scheme? Just please don't use colors for route names, which is done to death in other cities.
Whoops. I meant to make
C = Canarsie (ex-L)
...
V = culVer (ex-F)
I'd like to give the Franklin Shuttle its own letter, but I can't think of a unique one that seems to fit. Can you?
I wouldn't take an all-letter system, because when you add in the IRT, you don't really have enough letters. Plus expansion...?
If "V" can equal "culVer", then I suppose "K" could equal "franKlin". This recalls the phone company's historic nomenclature ("PLaza", "BUtterfield", etc.). Actually, I think every shuttle should have its own letter, rather than the current all-purpose "S". Also, what about skip-stop service on the "J", currently "J" and "Z"?
If "V" can equal "culVer", then I suppose "K" could equal "franKlin". This recalls the phone company's historic nomenclature ("PLaza", "BUtterfield", etc.).
Before the telephone company went to all-numbers there was an interim period (at least in New York) where they introduced letter exchanges that didn't mean anything at all. Someone suggested if that with some imaginationthey could come up with names, like "XXxxxiloveyou 6-2000" or "BMine 5-6254."
what about skip-stop service on the "J", currently "J" and "Z"?
Yeah, they used "9" for a skip-stop "1" but if you can have 5 expresses and 5 thru expresses and 6 locals and expresses in the Bronx and 7 ... and soon Q and diamond Q ...
See what I mean about the current system being screwed up? It's like being a little pregnant?
Your lettering system makes a lot of sense. Then maybe one could easily figure it out.
BMTJeff
I think the main goal would be to keep letters together on a trunk line in the CBD: ie. A, B, C, D on 8th Avenue, E, F, G, H on 7th Avenue, J, K, L, M on 6th Avenue, N for the Canarsie Line, P for the Crosstown, and R, T, V for Nassua Street. That would match the color coding.
Did I forget W, Z, Y and Z for Second Avenue?
Everyone's got there letters down pat, here are my number ideas.........
1: Flushing Line. Because if there is a problem, the people are the FIRST to call up and complain about it.
2: The same #2 7th Ave Express. That's because it runs like number 2.
3: Bway 7 Av Local (current #1). Stands for the average amount of available seats on the train at any given time.
3 1/2: Current #9 skip-stop.
4: Current 4 Lexington Av Express, which would be renamed the "Lexington Avenue makes fewer stops than the local, but takes just as long line"
5: Current #6, which would be renamed the "Jennifer Lopez Local". Stands for the amount of fingers in a fist which tend to fly during rush hour delays. Also stands for the amount of fares actually paid for at Cypress Avenue Station on a given day.
6: Current #5. Tends to plug behind the 4. Line slogan: "Ride with us, we'll make you six to your stomach".
7: Current #3. They say that seven is a lucky number. Riding this train at night to New Lots Avenue, you'll need all the luck that you can get.
Zero: Grand Central Shuttle. Stands for the exact amount of Conductors used on this line. Also signifies the IQ required to operate a train on this shuttle.
Hahahaha ... I take it your next pick is going to be A division, eh?
A division? Fuhgeddaboudit.
I think the lettering should be more logical, ie. adjacent lines should take adjacent letters of the alphabet..
A, B, C, D: same as today. Though they start in far flung areas in the Bronx and Coney Island they hook up in Manhattan with A, C, E on 8th and B,D,F on 6th. The G doesn't travel with them in Manhattan, but it is a companion of the E & F and, I propose, the H on Queens Blvd.
R should be renamed H, so it would flock with E, F and G in Queens. The Q would become the I. (Signage could feature a serifed 'I" that couldn't be mistaken for a #1). Then the H and I would travel together in Manhattan on Broadway.
Change the N to J. It would travel, then, with the H on 4th Avenue in Brooklyn and Broadway in Manhattan, and the I in Manhattan.
The J would become the K. After all, it meets the L in East New York; if the connection at ENY is reinstituted for passenger service, the K and L could work out an express/local service from Canarsie to Chambers Street or from Canarsie to 8th Avenue. Z skip stop service would be a diamond K.
The M is a puzzler since it's such a wild card line, buddying up with the B, H, I and K along its route. For now, let's call it the M.
I wouldn't do the V or W, as proposed, at all. Instead I keep the G to Continental or even 168th, even build a connection at Hoyt Schermerhorn to allow it into Manhattan now and then, and I fix the Manhattan Bridge on both sides so that I express service is resumed between Coney Island and Astoria and B and D express service as at present.
I build the Second Avenue Line. For that line I'd use the end of the alphabet, X express, Y or Z local.
That leaves us with N, O, P, Q, R, T, U, V, W. (I suppose the Franklin Shuttle will always be an S.) We could revive the old LIRR Rock tracks, convert the Bay Ridge cut, or convert the Conrail tracks from Sunnyside south to Middle Village for subway service and overrule the nimbys. Divvy up the remaining letters for those lines.
The S Times square Shuttle would be renamed 8, since it's IRT.
www.forgotten-ny.com/fantasyland
Actually, they should have made the IND/BMT system the numbered lines and the IRT trains the letters back in the late 1950s, before the Chrystie Street construction began. Since there are more B Division lines than A Division and there are more numbers in the world than letters in the alphabet, this would have made more sense -- and the IRT doesn't have enough lines to get into trouble due to the MTA "problem letters" -- the 'I' 'O' and 'P' -- they could be bypassed without facing a future "Letter Crisis" if, God forbid, the Second Ave. subway ever does get built.
What they should have done is kept as many of the old BMT Southern and Eastern Division numbers as possible:
1 -- Brighton-B'way Express (Q)
2 -- Fourth Ave.-B`way Local (R)
3 -- West End-Sixth Ave. Exp. (B)
4 -- Sea Beach-B'way Exp (N, and yes, it should be an express again someday)
5 -- Brighton Local-Sixth Ave./Concourse Exp. (D)
6 -- Culver/Sixth Ave. Local-Queens Blvd. Exp. (F)
7 -- Eighth Ave. Local-Queens Blvd. Exp. (E)
8 -- Eighth Ave./Fulton Exp. (A)
9 -- Eighth Ave./Fulton Local (C)
10 -- Brooklyn/Queens Local (G)
11 -- Open, but can go to the Sixth Ave./Queens Blvd. Local (V)
12 -- Open, reserved for the Second Ave. line (don't laugh)
13 -- Open, reserved for the Second Ave. line (if they four-track it and need a local and an express line)
14 -- Canarsie Lcl. (L)
15 -- Myrtle Ave./B'way-B'klyn./West End local (M)
16 -- B'way-B'klyn/Jamaica Ave. Local (J)
17 -- B'way-B'klyn/Jamaica Ave. Skip-Stop Local [Z]
The IRT lines could go as follows:
A -- Broadway Local (1)
B -- Seventh Ave. Exp.-White Plains Rd./Flatbush Local (2)
C -- Seventh Ave./Lennox Exp.-New Lots Lcl. (3)
D -- Broadway Skip-Stop Local <9>
E -- Lexington Ave./Woodlawn/Flatbush Exp. (4)
F -- Lexington Ave./Eastern Pkwy Exp.-/Dyre Ave. Lcl. (5)
G -- Lexington Ave./Pelham Lcl.
H -- Lexington Ave./White Plains Rd. Thru Exp. <5>
J -- Lexington Ave. Local/Pelham Exp <6>
K -- Flushing Local (7)
L -- Flushing Lcl./Exp. <7>
The Franklin, Rockaways and Grand Central shuttles can keep their (S) designations.
I know it would have hurt the IND people running the TA in the 1950s to abandon their letter coding system, but in the long run, it would have been much better to have done things the other way around from what was used to such confusing effect over the past 40 years.
Hello,
The following is a first hand account of interesting things that happened on the way back from my college to my house this afternoon.
I decided to take the R back home today. Got a clear shot from up front, since the R train was using a rare R-32 consist.
My friend Mike, a subway buff, just happens to board the train at the Times Square stop on the way to Northern Blvd. (I was going to Roosevelt)
Mike and I chat as we zoom under the 60th Street Tunnel and enter Queens Plaza around 12:45. However, when we get to Queens Plaza, we are held - Green over green home signal in front of us... and we're not moving for a few minutes. The report is then made by the TO: "We have a sick passenger requiring medical attention in the last car." We are held for quite a while. Several E and F trains pass by, running normally.
That's when Mike starts to chat with the TO. Eventually I join in their discussion.
The other passengers in the first car start to wonder when we would move.
An E train with a R-46 consist then enters the station. By this time it must have been about 10 minutes waiting. Several passengers then rush out of the R train, over to the TO window on the E train, demanding to go local. After a few seconds of arguing , the tower seems to agree, thus the E train departs Queens Plaza switching to the local track, making all local stops.
Now the only three people in the first car were the TO, Mike, and myself. Hey, Mike and I had some time to bleed!
Since Mike wants to be a train operator, and since I might want to as a last resort, we get the TO into talking about how other TOs are assigned lines - it is based on seniority. The more experienced you are, the better selection you have of a specific line. If you start fresh, you may end up with different lines for different days. The TO says it is difficult when you have to figure out what home signal lineup your route uses. There's a cheat sheet to let you know.
Well, now it's about 1:00, and the TO says that there's probably three G's and an R train stuck behind us now. We're ready to move, green over green in front of us. The doors close, then a woman knocks frantically on the door. I was thinking to myself, another woman too late trying to catch the train! The TO pushed the buzzer to have the conductor open the doors. Why? Turns out that woman was one of the dispatchers from tower. She handed the TO a sheet of paper, which read:
36
46
Roosevelt
Woodhaven
71
As you can probably figure out, this is the list of the stations that our R train would stop at, in order to make up for lost time. The TO made this announcement over the PA.
I was wondering why they wanted the train to go to 36 and 46 instead of, say Steinway and Northern. The TO had no idea, either.
So Mike decided to get off and catch the next local, while I stayed on for a rare "skip stop" ride to Roosevelt.
The TO left his cab open so I can peer inside. He explained that at Steinway, Northern and 65th, he would have to blow the whistle as the train entered and leaved the station. He said that he must be careful - right next to the handle for the whistle is another for the emergency brake.
So the train skipped stops accordingly. While it did, there was a woman wanting to go to Woodhaven, sitting nervously near us. The TO asked me to tell the woman that we would stop at Woodhaven, so I did.
At Roosevelt, I say my goodbye to the TO for the conversation. And as usual, there were a lot of local passengers getting on.. then off.. then back on.. all confused....
The end
Maybe they ought to try skip-stop service on the V and R along Queens Blvd. Might speed up the trip to Manhattan.
yeah but then local riders complain of having one train instead of two, thereby less service and frequency.
If you people were wondering what the bells in the terminal stations are for here are what they are for.
the bells are underneath a sign that says "START" when the bell rings the start sign lights up.
I have only seen this in Alewife T station
That is Boston. I was at TS on the Flushing Line and they had a bell but it kept ringing and the train never left.
They used to have them at Oak Grove but they don't seem to any more. So far as I can tell alewife is the only station that has it. Also at Alewife Braintree trains leave from the south track and Ashmont trains leave from the nort track
and I at 242nd Van Cortlandt Park.
Usually, the start lights come with some audio cue, like a bell or some kind of alarm. I've heard the bell at Times Square, and I've also heard it when holding lights come on.
We all know how the redbirds carry the following two signs:
( 7 )Flushing< 7 >Local-Express< --- --- >
< 7 >Flushing( 7 )Express-Local< --- --- >
The R62 signs carry no sign of the sort. What will they do with the R62 cars on Flushing? For this reason, (among others), the Redbirds should not be retired :-)
They'll probably change the 7 sign on express trains from the circle to diamond 7.
The solution is simple - have both a circle and a diamond logo available. Perhaps the 7 diamond logo can be shown with the word "Express" on the bottom, a la 6 line.
The sign on the 7 doesn't work on the 6 because of the loop at City Hall.
How are those two things related---or is that a joke?
:-) Andrew
Let's say it's the morning, so the 6 express is operating south in the Bronx. So the <6> arrow points south and the (6) arrow points north. Then the train goes around the loop. Now the <6> arrow is pointing north and the (6) arrow is pointing south -- whoops!
OK. I understand now. But like I said, the local/express signs on the (6) and (7) are consistently wrong anyway. Perhaps noone bothers to change them.
:-) Andrew
Someone said they didn't have the <- LCL EXP -> sign on the 6. Maybe it was the wrong post...
This is just another dumb post on keeping those nasty redbirds around. The 6 train does this just fine. "6" redbirds do not even have the above sign. There are ways of changing rollsigns. Put a patch over the '2' sign, and put up a 7 diamond with the words express underneath.
It was a JOKE!
I was aware of that fact. I got news for you. I hate the R142 and R142A, but I hate the J train to about the same degree.
>>It was a JOKE!<<
NOT FUNNY! Seriously, with all of your constant defense of redbirds, I thought that was a serious post.
>>I hate the R142 and R142A, but I hate the J train to about the same degree.<<
Ah, I'm sure that you hate electricity too because people don't use candles for light. Why you love those redbirds that are loud, noisy, have poor A/C and are nearing the ends of their lives is beyond me.
Good thing I'm not a fan of the "J". The 'J' in 'J Trainloco' is merely for my first name. Had you dissed the A 8th av express or F Culver local, then That would have meant something.
And, I hate the Washington Subway Syetem. All effiecency with no history whatsoever. No cool places to explore and no EXPRESS TRACKS!! HA!!
Did you ever think that they could install the correct signs in the R-62s, R-62As when the time comes? I'm sure when they are ready to move the R-62s, R-62As to the Flushing line they will have the correct signs ready for use in those cars.
BMTJeff
They already have diamond 7s.
you know everything !! .....
Compared to you, a 3 year old knows everything.
still better than being a new born like yourself !! i got three 3 years on you !!
physically...maybe....mentally...NO WAY
Whoa, is that an ageist remark?
Yes!
It's time to yell at me!
Why install new signs? The R62A roll signs already have diamond 7's as well as purple circle 11's on them. Or they could paste a purple circle 8 over the existing green 8. I'd much rather they use 8 because they shouldn't be skipping numbers, but imagine all the jokes you might hear if there were a 7/11 line.
If they don't have purple circle "7"s all they need to do is to add them.
BMTJeff
To all who responded to this post:
This was a little bit of sarcasm. While the thought did dawn upon me today, I figure the MTA is smart enough to overcome this problem, probably with the solutions mentioned.
This was a little bit of sarcasm. While the thought did dawn upon me today, I figure the MTA is smart enough to overcome this problem, probably with the solutions mentioned.
Actually, when you're dealing with an outfit that needs at least a year to fix a broken station escalator, nothing should be assumed!!
The problem with internet sarcasm is that nobody can figure it out through the normal means: facial expressions and tone of voice.
i was told the birds will run last on the # 7 !!!
Even if the "birds" do stick arround the (7) awile, we should still see some R62As. No reason some redbirds can't coexist on the (7) with some R62As. That happens on the (4)(5)(6) all the time.
:-) Andrew
The problem with Redbirds on the 7 is that the R-33WF goes with them.
The only good thing about the R-33S is that it doesn't have the patched up ceiling that all of the other Rustbirds have. It should have still been painted aqua and cream, that's a much better color than blood-red.
So what if the R-62As don't have 7 Express/Local signs! Most of the train crews don't seem to care all that much about the side signs on their trains, at least on the 7 line. As long as the sign says "7" somewhere on it and has the correct terminals, they won't bother to search through the four or five possible signs that display the 7.
While this is annoying, if you're a regular rider you get used to paying attention to the "Exp." and "Local" lights on the front of the train, and you don't board until you hear the conductor tell you exp/lcl (this only applies to 2 track stations).
Dan
Send some cardboard, duct tape, a pie plate, ruler and purple magic marker to the Corona yard and we'll have this crisis solved in a jiffy :-)
I would like to know does the MBTA have rodeos?
Yes. I believe they had their rapid transit road-e-o recently (there was a write-up in The Globe.) And in the past I've seen coverage of their bus road-e-o as well.
Well when?
I don't know. I don't work for the MBTA. As I said, I read about the transit road-e-o in The Globe a while back. And I also recall reading about a bus road-e-o in the past. Why don't you call the MBTA and ask?
MBTA does indeed have a rodeo; this year they are also hosting the National Rodeo during the second weekend in June. Next year, the Nationals will be in Baltimore.
Where is it and when is it?
2nd weekend in June. Wellington Carhouse on the Orange Line.
Saturday or sunday?
The ta seems to be advertizing their new station names, the letters are bigger than the 68s but smaller than the 68as.
Any one know where i could get a rollsign of an r68, r30, or redbird?
To be quite honest with ya' Abe,
You could always try E-Bay..
These stations once existed on the Far Rock/Long Beach line between Jamaica and Valley Stream. I ride that line daily and cannot find a hint of the existence of either station.
Does anyone know approximately where they were, such as the location of the nearest street/cross streets?
Thanks.
I don't know the exact locations, but I believe they disappeared when the line was elevated (relatively late--50?) so there aren't any artifacts to see.
I don't know the exact locations, but I believe they disappeared when the line was elevated (relatively late--50?) so there aren't any artifacts to see.
Springfield Gardens was removed after the line was elevated, yet there too there is nothing left except a rusty train-stop indicator sign.
I'm not sure that's correct. In the "Change at Rockaway Park" book, a schedule is printed showing the Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue stations after the elevation took place.
You might see if you could glean any info from Bob Andersen's excellent lirrhistory.com
More detailed than my previous post, you can find information about Cedar Manor and Higbie Ave. stations, including when they closed and their milepost locations at lirrhistory.com. (Scroll down the page)
With those details and a little hiking, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for.
Does anyone know where I can find a set of LIRR track maps, a la the excellent NYC Subway tracks book?
Thanks.
While nobody has done the research/graphic design that Peter Dougherty has done in his NYCTA track maps books, there have been a few "issues" of LIRR track maps.
You may wish to check the "New York & Western" website of Steven Lynch, he's got quite a few maps pertinent to the LIRR there.
http://www.nyandw.com/
Though I can't say they are exact, if you can download the BAHN program, there are about two layouts at the NYC Resources BAHN index that depict the tracks and trains of the LIRR. The tracks seem to show good accuracy, ie two tracks there, one track there etc
That's about the only thing that IS accurate on those two BAHN simulations...number of main tracks.
The interlockings are nowhere near correct, in fact, I don't think the authors even tried to make them correct.
I did lay out the entire Jamaica complex in an older version of BAHN using some LIRR Jamaica diagrams that I have.....but at the time, no LIRR M-1's were available for trains. So I laid the Jamaica complex out scaling it to some German trains.
I just haven't had the time to convert it to the latest version of BAHN. I've kinda given up on BAHN altogether, just got bruned out on it after doing the complete NYCTA subway system, SEPTA rapid transit, Washington Metrorail, Los Angeles, and a myriad of other cities.
If you pass by my house in Westchester
==I can give you some material
Steve
FDNY
914 668 9218
I assume 40 singles from the 3 train will go plus lots of 5 car sets from somehere. Maybe the single will be the east car in the consist rather than the 3rd-east car as now, so they'll be a railfan window eastbound only. Coney Island shops will have to be R62A-friendly.
I heard each train would have one 5 car linked set and 6 singles... I don't see why not link up the remaining sets (since the MTA likes doing that) and running 2 5 car sets with a single in the middle?
Then you'd need to convert the full width cabs to narrow cabs.
Why would you do that?
I suppose the Conductor could use one of the internal full-width cabs from the 5-car sets. At night (2am-5am), they could go to 5-car OPTO.
The singles will have to get the double-tripcocks fro the trips to CI,
unless they leave a half-dozen R33S around to pilot the R62A's.
I was under the impression that the R62/R62a's could easily be converted from half-width cabs to full width and vice versa; they were designed that way.
It would seem from a standpoint of operational flexibility that it would make sense to have single units with half-width cabs to be used as the 11th car. (They could be used at either end of the train, or in the middle.)
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
blockfront projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Preservation Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored facade
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
I saw a Snickers commercial set in the subway. Someone mentioned a long time ago that they were filming a Snickers commercial at Hoyt-Schermmerhorn, I guess it's finally airing.
dat wuz ME! :o>
/wayne\
I saw it on commercial break on WWF's War is Raw (Monday night). Perhaps they will show it again next week. Time to warm up the VCR and tape this. SLO MO will show some bits and pieces we miss since some scene are rather quick.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw this tonight on Raw is War (wrestling). Taking place at Hoyt-Schermerhorn St station tiled columned platform with columns in pastel colors. Passengers looking like space aliens (really) boarding an R-68. Conductor keeps closing doors on aliens for spite. Funny part is the current door button panel is replaced by a large plunger that the conductor keeps smacking to trap hapless aliens in the doors.
Inside the cab the car # is 2893 #2 end. Has anybody seen this goofy commercial ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not yet, but I was watching them one the days they were filming it, which was December 12, 2000....it took them all THIS time to get it to air...
If you look closely you'll see the R68 signed up as "8" with a Broadway Gold bullet.
Some of the railings and whatnot are still wearing the coat of paint they gave them for that commercial.
wayne
[If you look closely you'll see the R68 signed up as "8" with a Broadway Gold bullet.]
Are you sure it wasn't B?
I've seen the commercial too. It's an 8
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember awhile back someone posted they saw a MetroNorth car with a "V" on it.
Well there is a commercial currently playing with people on it. I forget what it is about (great commercial huh?) though.
>>>
...MetroNorth car with a "V" on it.
I forget what it is about ...<<<
Coca-Cola, train buffs are too busy paying attention to the train to care what product is being advertised. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought the .V. on the side of the train was actually the M logo with most of the outside legs removed. The two dots seem to be in the right place to be the bottoms of the legs.
The outer legs aren't straight like a standard M, they slant outward. And it's two-tone:
/\/\
I've seen that commercial, and I was wondering what system that was on. Judging by the large purple-looking stripe and the fact that the "V" is in a circle just like Boston's "T" logo, I was convinced it was an MBTA commuter train. However, I couldn't think of anywhere in Boston where the commuter tracks are up on a viaduct like that. I guess Metro North makes sense, then.
There's another commercial I've seen a few times. A woman is sitting by herself repeating the words "hit me" and seems oblivious to her surroundings, as other passengers look on with mild curiousity. Turns out the commercial is for some sort of riverboat casino, possibly Harrah's. The interior of the train didn't really look familiar to me; it's certainly not Chicago, New York or Boston. However, it looks like a somewhat older system, so my best guess would be the Broad Street Subway in Philly. The subway train had sort of an interesting roar to it, which could be heard in the background of the commercial.
Anybody seen this commercial and can identify which system it's on?
-- David
Chicago, IL
It was the Numeral "8". The rear four cars (2910-09-07-08) remained as "N"s.
wayne
There's an alien with a megaphone, and some guy in plaid playing a horn (?), and one other victim.
I got the idea that they were blocking the doors, frustrating the conductor, and so he decided to take out his frustrations on them.
"some guy in plaid playing a horn (?)"
I believe that lad was playin' those bagpipes mon !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I also saw a guy on a cell phone in that commercial.
And I forgot - they left some of the ceiling lights with their globes intact
wayne
I saw it as well. I told my kids that this would be a topic on SubTalk the next day.
"I saw it as well. I told my kids that this would be a topic on SubTalk the next day."
Sounds like you have some psychic talents there. If so did the spirits advise you when the Second Ave subway construction will commence ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The crystal ball fell and broke before getting an answer to that one.
Ad: COCA COLA
Setting: NYC (?) Subway
Subway car shown non-moving in dark tunnel
A/C appears to be off.. passengers staring
at one another.. one passenger glares up
at an in-car advertisement of Coca Cola
and imagines himself escaping off to
a pool with a bevy of mystical-like women..
....only to find that his fellow train
passengers have also followed him away since
one of them is also holding a Coca Cola Bottle.
Ad first aired in SuperBowl 2001..
There's another coke commercial, a new one, that features a Metro North train, with interior and exterior shots.
Mark
thats what hey are talking about
I've designed a new logo for PATCOue.
P f A i T t C f O
What d'ya all think?
You need to get some sleep.
Ignore him everybody, this was posted at 5:43 his local time having not slept at all.
*sniff* I designed a logo *sniff* for PATCOue *sniff* without knowing what it is *sniff* and everybody ignored me *sniff* except Mike *sniff* I'm sad *sniff* I'm hurt
PATCOue!!!!!!!!!!
You're not related to the guy who designed the Penn Central "mating worms" logo are you ?
BTW - what's with all the sniffs ? Bad cold !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How About this
PATCO
While looking through some old stuff the other day I came accross a 1991 issue of Locomotive and Railway Preservation Magazine which contained an article about the Boeing/Vertol Lemon LRV. In the context of this article they mention that the SOAC train is (was) at Branford. I know that it is up in Maine at Seashore now but, was it ever at Branford or is the article incorrect?
Peace,
ANDEE
The article is incorrect.
The SOAC cars were never at Shoreline. We hardly have the space for anything that big....
They were donated by the Feds to Seashore after sitting in the hot desert sun for a number of years (that's why their windows are caked over with sun damage).
BMTman
Doug,
Besides the propulsion ,couplers and nose jobs , what other differences were there between the SOACs and r/44S AND r/46S.
They'd make nice leads for a Frar Rock train to JFK.
avid
Well the trucks were the PCC type (inboard frames).
As you probably know the SOAC cars had fully carpeted interiors and the commuter car (car #1) had a set of 'coffee tables' at either end.
BMTman
I remember the warm ambience and get that fuzzy feeling. What I was alluding to were the differences that prevented or deterred the MTA from seeking these cars as additions to the fleet. I loved the the breakfast nooks.
BTW, what was the maximum number of "standards" train length on the Canarsie line? Was it 7 (469ft) or 8 (536ft) used in its hayday? Do you know the minimum platform length?
I've been doing a visuale comparison of the 110Bs and the 143s and trying to see how if they (110Bs) were upgraded, they could be integrated into the 143 fleet. The Trailers of the 110Bs should really be powered!
Maybe it would be easier to downgrade the 110Bs to intaegrate them with the R68s. The seating layouts might be less demanding on the thought processes of the traveling public if used with the R68s. A worse scenario might be the elitist feeling of those passengers with forward facing seats. Maybe if they were broken up into all singles and replaced one r143 with one r110b the seven foot gain could be tolerated at all of the Canarsie stations.
What are your thoughts on this possibility?
avid
makes more sense at this point to intergrate them with the R-68 fleet since there are a limited number of 110B's anyhow.
BMTman
How is that? With the length difference, could this be used to as an advantage to squeeze out what little expansion possible without major platform construction? It's not much, it could mean a little less intimate travel with strangers. Maybe the "J" "M" or "Z" would be better served with their addition , once additional R160s arrive.
avid
"I've been doing a visuale comparison of the 110Bs and the 143s and trying to see how if they (110Bs) were upgraded, they could be integrated into the 143 fleet."
NO WAY !! The R-110B (67') and the R-143 (60') are two different animals. Besides, the TA isn't even interested in upgrading the R-110As to R-142 status...........at least not now.
Bill "Newkirk"
How come "No way"? Yes they are different, but by how much? We all know of the seven foot difference in length. What are the other really significant differences? Those differences must be economically surmountable. We're talking modifing nine cars. A nine car GOH to put those cars in real service. Something smells bad, very bad when an asset worth millions is left to sit idle or run itself down for lack of parts.
avid
Every train of BMT standards I ever saw on the Canarsie was 6 cars long. It seems that was the norm on Eastern Division lines, although I understand 3-car trains were commonly run at night.
So the r/110B could be run as-is on the "L" now, even though the current consist are 8x60ft. making for 480ft consists. We'd still have an 80ft. shortfall. I'll finish the rest of the post before I ask any other dumb questions.
avid
Did it have a bar car? :)
No. It was a beer car....no wine was served before it's time....;-D
BMTman
Not 'til the 142's anyway. Heh. That was the one thing that was nice about the NY Central and the New Haven ... step on the car and there'd be a guy with a steamer trunk passing out beer, wine, soda, mixed drinks ... and others in the rear of the car just passing out. :)
Hey, I remember those bar cars on the New Haven line. The only time I ever rode on one was once on a Saturday morning from New Haven into the city, and it was the lead motor! Of course, the bar itself was closed and the car was virtually empty.
They leave the bar car in the consists on the weekends. I've seen it a couple of times and people do ride in it even when it's services are closed.
New York Central, even the bloody LIRR Hempstead line had bar cars once upon a time ... between that and actual meals with gravy and soup on PLATES in the dining car ... THAT is what made a train ride special. I used to work a radio station up in Peekskill on "Radio Terrace" (WLNA/WHUD) and the bar car on my way up made the show go better. Heh.
Yes, and even the M1 & M3s could be made into a bar car by just rolling a cart into it.
Mr t__:^)
Even a steamer trunk ... LIRR pulled that one as did MNRR in the past. The days of Pullman specialty consists are a bit behind us now. Heh. But man, a bar car on the subways ... I'd vote for ANY politico that offered that perk ... instead, we gotta brown bag it. No justice!
Radio Terrace and the WHUD elevator music are long gone now. They've gone "light rock".
--Mark
Is Ed Baer, formerly of WMCA still with the station ?
I really don't know .... I don't really listen to WHUD very much.
Have you tried the New York Radio Message Board?
--Mark
Yipe! The Colonel must be twirling in his grave ... 72 degrees on Radio terrace, 82 in Central Park ... heh.
I remember once going with a date in 1967 or so to the Hamptons on the LIRR on a Sunday. We met at Penn and changed at Jamaica. The bar car on the diesel was serving breakfast foods, such as rolls, coffee, danish, etc. for a fee. I presume after a certain hour they switched to serving alcohol. Don't know if this was weekends or all the time on diesel service. Would make sense to have done in AM Rush hours.
By Dec. of 1976 when I moved to Suffolk County breakfasts had been discontinued.
You can read all about the SOAC here. Better yet, come on up to Seashore and see for yourself!
Thanks for the invite. I will, don't know when, but its a good idea.
They would look good crossing the Hellgate, on its way to either LGA or JFK. I believe there is still one unused track up there.
avid
Also check out the SubTalk "Field Trip" report from last year. Included are some photos from inside one of the cars.
Mr t__:^)
I saw the SOAC's at Seashore the Tuesday after this past Labor Day. You can see how the current subway cars are descendants of SOAC. However, breakfast nooks would work better on a commuter rail rather than a subway car that needs every inch of space for passengers in rush hour.
Do the SOAC's travel around the Seashore tracks like R-17, etc at Branford or are they basically stationary?
They are inoperable from what I've been told.
Peace,
ANDEE
Correct; the SOACs can't move under their own power. I have towed them around with our electric engine #300 however. Right now, they're locked-in on their display track, behind a number of Tarped Wonders and other assorted cars.
The SOACs have a project manager, but he has not had the time to do a lot of work on them in recent years. He has a full-time job, and along with two others, also started up an Internet Service Provider in suburban Boston (nii.net, the one I use to host radio88.net). If anyone is interested in contacting him, send me an email off-line and I'll hook you up to him.
Tarped wonders????????
Peace,
ANDEE
Trolley cars "under wraps." They can be in just about any condition, but are usually in pretty bad shape -- and awaiting stabiliziation and/or restoration. We have so many, it's hard to remember which is which sometimes!
Hey, is there going to be a subtalk trip up there this summer? Unlike last summer, I've got nothing real to do and can pop up on the weekends (the bike needs a good dyno run and tune, but that's just icing on cake, and I wanna break in the motor some more anyway first)
Anyway, I loved the first one (even though everyone was late!) and I heard the 2nd one rocked too.
Good news, Phil. I hear rumors of a SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore this summer. I think the organizer (one of our fellow SubTalkers) is getting close to announcing the details. Hope to see you there.
From what I hear, July or August weekend trip only (no stop in Boston). Drive up Friday, Seashore Saturday, Drive back Sunday.
I'm sure the Field Trip host will post soon.
We're forming the "core group" while Todd is picking a week-end in July/August for us.
Suggestion: If you want to do your own Field Trip:
1. Form a core group of like minded folks, 3 or 4 is enough
2. Somebody is in charge (decides what/when, then gets others to agree, some modification happens at this point)
3. Announce trip ... modifications can be made if original group agrees.
4. Do the trip
That's all there is to it. If the group is small you have fun, if it grows it's more fun because you get to meet some fellow railfans. I've done a number of trips, all have been enjoyable. Some of the best were those that I just tagged along on, e.g. Sid from NJ & Peggy's trips to Newark City Subway; Lou's Fall trip on SIRT; BMTman's Brooklyn El's.
Those that go out of town, e.g. Boston, Chicago, Washington D.C. are a little more complicated, but the rewards are fantastic.
Mr t__:^)
Seashore has 1,000 or so cars ... these need a friend to adopt them, but visitors can get inside, with the assistance of a guide. If you go again (some here are thinking about a 2nd annual Boston T Party) just tell them you're a Shoreline member ... there are many who are members of both, e.g. Todd & I.
BTW, did you realize that many of our ME members attended Shoreline's Member's Day event ?
Mr t__:^)
A THOUSAND CARS?!? Whoa!! That's a humungous collection. I gotta get up there someday.
Let's not start crazy rumors! The collection stands around 265. There are extra vehicles not part of the collection, but nowhere near 1000.
Well said, Dick! Here's the roster of the collection, though this list was last updated about six years ago.
Is there any plans to update that list soon? Brcause 6 years is too long without updating?
All it takes is a willing volunteer. As with most trolley museums, there are too many projects and not enough volunteer time!
Opps ... typed without looking it up, sorry about that.
They have over 120 trolleys (includes Interurbans). This is more then Branford's entire collection. There are 30 rapid transit cars, their Gibbs Hi-V and SOAC pair are part of this group, but the LIRR MP-54 is in their RxR group. In general they have a lot of everything, e.g. over 30 buses (includes trackless trolleys).
Todd's, given you a hot link to learn more of the detail.
Mr t__:^)
From what I saw last September, many of the cars are used for storage of materials and will never be roadworthy again. A few are rusted and should be cut up and sold for scrap. I wonder if they have an exact count of vehicles,including operational and those used for storage or cannibalization.
Boy, cut up the last example of type of trolley or interurban or bus because it's rusted. Maybe we should knock down the Sphinx because the nose is busted!
Rust can be sanded, metal replaced, wormholed wood can be epoxied with new pieces. Some of the nicest restorations at Seashore were in terrible shape when started. The City of Manchester (NH) was a beat up playhouse on a farm. NOPS 966 (our "Streetcar Named Desire) had no roof to speak of when we got it.
A new exhibit showing before, during and after examples has just been arranged in the Highwood Barn. Come back and see. Spend a little more time at the shop and see how "The Magic Happens"
Seashore's mission is to restore what it can, and stabilize (keep in the same condition) what it can't currently work on. This way, future restoration is possible. Cutting up and scraping is not an option!
[Seashore's mission is to restore what it can, and stabilize (keep in the same condition) what it can't currently work on. This way, future restoration is possible. Cutting up and scraping is not an option!]
I think all these trolly museums have the same attitude. It's only money & volunteers that limit what they can do. Branford has been able either to build some extra barns or at least bag/tarp most of it's collection. The management knows the condition & location of every car, e.g. one of our new operators recently asked where & in what condition was our second Peter Witt. Jeff H. responded with the barn track (including the spot on the track) & it's detailed condition.
Sometimes museums trade or sell some of their collections, e.g. Warehouse Point in CT is selling their steam engines, but they almost never scrap a car. I do know of one incident, but a new car is being created at Branford from her parts.
Mr t__:^)
We should be a bit more precise on this point. When we refer to "collection," we usually mean the accessioned artifacts (which can range from trolley cars to library books) that are an official part of what the museum keeps and protects. Many items are obtained for OTHER purposes, such as spare parts, resale, or storage. For example, Seashore's truckless R-1 is NOT part of the collection; it is for parts and the storage of parts. As part of its acquisition, it was deliberately agreed it would NOT be restored; if after its useful life, it can be disposed of in any manner that the Board of Trustees sees fit, without going through a deaccessioning process.
An excellent reference is the Association of Railway Museums' Recommended Practices publication. It's great reading.
Good points, Todd. ARM Recommended Practices is one of the few
sources of guidance in this area.
Basically, anything which is accessioned into a museum collection
has inherent historical content, and so it should not be modified
or destroyed without proper documentation so that content can survive.
Spare parts are an interesting gray area. Railway museums do
not generally accession spare parts, even though they have historical
content. We might have, for example, a particular car gong
accessioned and stored along with the other small artifacts, but
another similar gong is uncataloged and thrown into a pile of
spare gongs. Same thing with motors and trucks. A lot of people
ignore what is under the floor, but there is a great deal of
engineering history being preserved under there. When a truck is
part of a car, it is part of an accessioned artifact, but when you
pull that truck out and put it in a pile, it becomes a spare part.
Part of the confusion is that the general bias in the AAM, as
opposed to ARM community is towards clay pots, paintings and
fossils, i.e. static artifacts, and doesn't take into consideration
the reality of preserving an artifact within its role, which has
the unfortunate effect of gradually removing historic content,
such as original materials and finishes.
What I was referring to was several of the cars that were in an area to the right of the welcome as you walk into it from the parking lot. While coming back to the welcome center after looking at SOAC I veered off to the left and make a big loop and ended up on the parking lot side of the welcome center. Some of those cars appeared to be storage containers and from a distance very rusted.
I did not mean any disrespect or disparagment of any volunteer's efforts, just that sometimes perhaps we have to say good bye to things.
Depending on what weekend the S-T field trip is proposed, I may be able to come up and get an unhurried look at everything.
I guess I overreacted. Still, 265 of anything is a good-sized collection. Is that truckless R-1 included?
I believe so. I had to search the photos here to recollect which car this was. Thanks for the picture, D. P. The R-1 arrived at Seashore after the current roster was compiled. An update on the roster would be nice, but the active members are involved with so many projects as it is.
Perhaps the confusion is the words SHOREline and SeaSHORE.
Speaking of SOAC, although they will probably never leave the clutches of Seashore. Imagine them rehabbed and running on AIRTRAIN !!
I know, a goofy thought if you will. But the AIRTRAIN cars with the large broad windshield seems to be a 21st Century version of SOAC. Rakish and unusual, compare them and see what I mean.
Bill "Newkirk"
A T/O who allegedly stabbed his estranged girlfriend to death the same day that a restraining order was extended had his alibi destroyed by his employee Metrocard record. The record shows he went to the SI crime scene, not to Atlantic City.
Daily News story
What a dope! Glad he won't be driving trains anymore.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hope he was in front of me seniority wise. I MOVE UP ONE SLOT! WHOOPEE!
lol
Come June, every TO in the system moves up one slot. The #1 T/O in the IRT (#3 systemwide, I think) is retiring after 37+ years in title.
37 years, that's all? Lol.
The #1 T/O in the system works midnights at Pitkin Yard. He's been with the TA since 1957, and has been a T/O since 1962.
Damn! That's a long time!
See, I told you Metrocards would be used for no good. Big Brother is watching everybody.
>>>See, I told you Metrocards would be used for no good. Big Brother is watching everybody. <<
They helped to catch a possible murderer, a stupid one, but a possible murderer none the less. Also, we are talking about an EMPLOYEE metrocard not your standard issue one.
Peace,
ANDEE
All Metrocards can be used in this way. You might be all smug now but after you commit a crime and are caught due to your Metrocard you'll realize I was right.
All Metrocards can be used in this way. You might be all smug now but after you commit a crime and are caught due to your Metrocard you'll realize I was right.
Use a single-ride MC and throw it out after entering the station.
Before you throw away your metrocard after comitting a crime, wipe of the prints, eat the card, set yourself on fire. Now your safe!
avid
LOL...thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
I eat my metrocards after they exipre, nobody is going to catch ME!!!
That's providing that you purchased your metrocard with cash. If you used a debit card or a credit card and they link the serial # to an account number - It could be 'rock-breaking' time.
But that's what STUPID criminals do.
I would be totally in favor of using Metrocards to capture half-brained criminals. Smart criminals use cash.
... unless they want the security deposit back. :-)
Arti
HOW? I don't give them my name when I buy one and I don't plan on commiting any crimes. Even if I did commit a crime I wouldn't be stupid enough to use any from of trackable media.
Peace,
ANDEE
But if you had, say an unlimited monthly, and used it on a daily basis to and from work. A pattern would show of usage and a side trip on the day the felonious batcchi ball theft occured. If you still had the metrocard... gotcha. If not circumstantial evidence pointing a stations unique to you and the victim. One time use and toss it away!
The other evidence will get you.
avid
The moral of the story:
If you're gonna murder someone, for crying out loud use tokens!
When buying tokens is made illegal, only criminals will have tokens.
lol
When buying tokens is made illegal, only criminals will have tokens.
My wife, yes; my dog, maybe; my tokens, never!
God, guts and tokens made America great. Let's keep all three!
They can take my tokens away from me when they pry my cold dead fingers off of them.
And remember, tokens don't kill people -- people kill people.
Or is that, One of three high school students personally knows someone that has been threatened by a subway token.
How exactly do you murder someone with a token?
>>>How exactly do you murder someone with a token?
Don't know, maybe if you hit him reeeeeeeeeeally hard with it..................
Nope. You choke 'em to death....
Easy. Just drop a token from top of The Empire State Building and see if it will land on top of some poor unsuspecting schmuck.
The victim put up token resistance....
avid
[But if you had, say, an unlimited monthly, and used it on a daily basis to and from work. A pattern would show of usage and a side trip on the day the felonious battchi ball theft occurred.] If you still had the MetroCard... gotcha.]
Just about everybody who uses a 7- or 30-Day Unlimited MetroCard does so in order to make those side trips, or even to let someone else make a side trip. Unlimited riders are not "locked in" to their established patterns, nor are they even "required" to establish a pattern. It bears repeating that only the CARD can be traced, not the user; within the 7- or 30-day period after the first use, anybody can use it.
On the other hand, employee passes ARE tied to their users, by definition. If an employee lets someone else use his/her pass, both are guilty of fare evasion.
And this is supposed to be a BAD thing?
What if I wanted to cheat on my wife (if I had a wife), that's the problem.
But I would use cash. And I would carefully select the ATM where I get that cash (and the time). I would buy gas with cash, and pay tolls with cash. Keeping things secret is more important than a few cents.
Yes and so can your EZPass, your Blockbuster Video card, your shoprite Card, any ATM Card or any credit card. What is your point? With the metrocard, you give no personal information so unless you commit a crime, then use the card to make your escape, and get arrested with it still in your pocket, you have nothing to worry about.
It should also be pointed out that MetroCard records have also been used to exonerate suspects.
David
Our Constitutional Right to commit crimes anonymously?
For those who believe that their privacy rights are going to be violated, take note of the fact that this perpetrator used his employee card to commit his crime. It would be too expensive for any investigative agency to track the movements of everyone on a daily basis with an unlimited ride card like I have, and I am not an employee of the MTA. If you give the authorities probable cause to suspect you, then you can expect to be investigated. Granted, the case of those two unfortunates who were locked up on the basis of testimony given in court by a cocaine addict and subsequently found innocent after 14 years of incarceration does show that the system is far from perfect, but something your mother may have told you when you were little holds true, and that is if you play with fire, you stand a good chance of getting burned. He will get his just desserts for what he did, but the rest of us who ride need not worry about our everyday movemenst being followed, as long as we are not up to no good.
The perpetrator didn't even make a token effort to hide or cover his trail....
The not-bad pun aside, it's always possible he didn't set out to murder her--maybe he originally wanted to talk to her or argue with her but things escalated.
If I were his defense attorney going for 2nd degree or even manslaughter over Murder 1, I would use the Metrocard as a "see, he didn't have the intent. If he did, he would never have used his Metrocard."
Okay, how long until someone proposes encoding employee passes so that someone with a restraining order can't travel on any lines that go within 1000 feet of the forbidden location?
And why issue restraining orders anyway if they lead so often to violence?
How do restraining order lead to violence?
By aggravating an already bad situation. Unless you have a cop posted 24 hours a day there's no way those orders are fully effective. If someone is hell-bent on violence it won't stop them, only give one more thing to charge the perpetrator with. You or me would obey it but those who'd do otherwsie will do so anyway.
>>> Unless you have a cop posted 24 hours a day there's no way those orders are fully effective. <<<
You miss the point. If the protected person uses deadly force to prevent an attack, there will rarely be a prosecution if there is an affidavit on file (to get the retraining order) detailing the reason the protected person fears for his/her life. The big mistake made by many is not taking the necessary steps to be ready to use self help both physically and psychologically to enforce the order.
Tom
>>> the rest of us who ride need not worry about our everyday movemenst being followed, as long as we are not up to no good. <<<
This sounds an awful lot like the old "Well if you have nothing to hide you should not object to the police searching your home" arguments of the extreme law & order fools.
Tom
If the token don't fit you must acquit.
avid
>>> You might be all smug now but after you commit a crime and are caught due to your Metrocard you'll realize I was right. <<<
Don't forget it could work in your favor also. If you are accused of being at a crime scene, and your Metrocard record supports your alibi of being far away at the time, you will be glad it was there.
Tom
A T/O who allegedly stabbed his estranged girlfriend to death the same day that a restraining order was extended had his alibi
destroyed by his employee Metrocard record. The record shows he went to the SI crime scene, not to Atlantic City.
I'd put that T/O in the same category as people who use their home telephones, rather than pay phones, to make bomb threats. Duuuuh!
Another post jokes about this infamous side sign...
( 7 )Flushing< 7 >Local-Express< --- --- >
I think it's kind of clever since it only has be changed once per day. How do the (5) and the (D) sign their rush hour trains? Express/Local vs Express/Express?
Also, remember this one from a few years ago?
( 2 )( 5 )7th Ave / Lex Ave< --- --- >
The D doesn't use any special "express" signs (they're all R68 cars, anyway.)
The 5 has "Bronx Thru Express," but has no arrows like the 7
Does the (5) carry the same Thru Express side signs in both directions (assuming some units make more than a single trip in one direction at rush hour) or does the crew go through and crank them on all ten cars before reversing out on the next trip?
Obviously the LED signs on the new cars make all of this much easier.
[Does the (5) carry the same Thru Express side signs in both directions?]
Yes, and it's <5>.
That side sign on the 7 gets changed more than once a day!
In the morning it reads:
Flushing
Express Local
<---- ----->
In the afternoon, it reads:
Flushing
Local Express
<------ ------>
And on the midnights, it just says: Flushing Local
They rarely change those signs on the (7) redbirds at all during the day. They're usually wrong! So if there is a problem getting it right with the R62As, well so what else is new!
:-) Andrew
Tehy're only changed once a day: at midnight 7 locals can be used. thus only one sign change!
Seattle-based Flexcar will offer a car share plan to Washington Metro riders, while Boston-based Zipcar will offer a similar service in Alexandria and Arlington County. Users pay a fee to join the organization, then order a car in advance and pay time and mileage fees. Cars will be available near Metro stations.
Washington Post story
Would a program like this be feasible in New York, I wonder?
--Mark
I've heard of people doing this sort of thing on an individual level in several cities. A group of city people who all need a car from time to time, but not everyday, buy a car together and arrange a use schedule among themselves. It really makes a lot of sense, splitting the cost of the car and insurace several ways, and then only having to find one parking space.
Mark
I was wondering the same thing myself. Part of the appeal of having the car is that it is your own space; you can "customize" it with bumper stickers, fuzzy dice, radio stations, and gum wrappers on the floor.
The car company will have to clean the cars, but it can't be done continually. Would people want to ride in a car that someone else had messed?
Also in NY the cars will be a magnet for thieves I suspect.
Jersey's two senators, Rich and Crook, lobbied for a new Hudson River tunnel at a transportation summit sponsored by New Jersey Alliance for Action at NJIT Monday night.
Bergen Record story
I'm guessing that this is for the NE corrider line to feed into Penn Station. Going to be sorely needed once the Secaucus Transfer opens up...this whole process is going to have to be streamlined though. It seems that the Montclair and Midtown Direct connections where built rather quickly to feed into New York, but the capacity hasn't been expanded. All of this should have been done concurrently....
Well as long as Toricelli doesnt have to resign from all of this scandall. NJ might get some progress on this issue. It would benefit the whole NE since Amtrak could use it as well. I think this will happen just dont know when??
Does this provide an opportunity to "piggy-back" a freight connection to NYC as part of new tunnel construction? Perhaps a double-deck tunnel like the East River (NYCTA/LIRR) tunnnel. What do our resident experts think?
Since the west side rail yards are pretty much consigned to become Donald Trump's new swanky housing development, a freight tunnel into Midtown Manhattan would have limited usefulness compaired with one directly from N.J. to Brooklyn.
Freight trains could use the west side Amtrak connection to Spuyten Duyvil and then reverse to get to Oak Point and the Hellgate crossing to reach L.I., but that would require sharing (and blocking) a lot of Metro North track along the way. The alternative would be extending the freigh tunnel under 32nd St. and across the East River to the Lower Montauk line, which would probably be more costly than either a straight Brookyln-Jersey link or one to New Jersey via Staten Island and the CSX rail bridge to Elizabeth.
Perhaps they have proposed eliminating all federal help for the LIRR to GCT and Second Avenue to pay for it. Really, the way NJ has treated NY for the past decade, and since they don't really need us anyway, why bother with the tunnel?
Manhattan needs a freight train like it needs a hole in its head. Realestate is just to damn valuable to bother with something as wasteful as a railyard. True, more passenger capacity is needed, much more. Two or four more tubes into mid-town to relieve traffic congestion on both sides of the river would be a God send.
(Yawn... Stretch......) Won't happen soon, so get over it.
Freight into Brooklyn and Long Island has been spoken of before, and has some need, but this would best be handled by a SI-Brooklyn tunnel, and even that would be mostly passenger, with a few freights passing through at night.
A lower Hudson freight line is needed, unless you like Selkirk for some reason. I think that transportation issues are regional and mult-dimensional.... Rail, Road, Water, and Air... each pulling its load,
but there really does need to be more that one freight track crossing the Hudson River.
Elias
Well as long as Toricelli doesnt have to resign from all of this scandall. NJ might get some progress on this issue. It would benefit the whole NE since Amtrak could use it as well. I think this will happen just dont know when??
The need for that tunnel has been present for years, but the highway happy policitians were not listening. Now that the price of fuel is going through the roof, conservation is being thought of when it should have been a priority in the first place. I take it that the old Poughkeepsie rail bridge over the Hudson is not considered for any type of rehab, so a new connection is needed. How about it, guys?
I didn't know that there was a bridge up at Poughkeepsie for trains to go over the Hudson. For the freight trains, I keep hearing in articles that trains going into New York City have to cross the Hudson up at Albany to go west. Is this bridge compatable with the freight and metro north lines? I'd be all for it if it was or could be linked fairly easily. The investment would be well worth it.
I didn't know that there was a bridge up at Poughkeepsie for trains to go over the Hudson. For the freight trains, I keep hearing in articles that trains going into New York City have to cross the Hudson up at Albany to go west. Is this bridge compatable with the freight and metro north lines? I'd be all for it if it was or could be linked fairly easily. The investment would be well worth it.
Although it's still standing, the Poughkeepsie bridge has been out of service for at least twenty years. The lines leading up to it have been abandoned, and much of the right of way on the west side of the Hudson has been lost to development. Any resumption of service has to be regarded as extremely unlikely.
One note - the bridge never had access to what's now the Metro North Hudson Line. Trains heading east over the bridge went on to what's called the Maybrook line through Dutchess and Putnam counties into Connecticut. Metro North now owns part of the Maybrook line, and is basically "warehousing" it, preserving the r-o-w from development just in case it can be used for passenger service at some future date. I believe the parts of the line adjacent to the east end of the bridge have been completely abandoned.
As a result, the Selkirk bridge just south of Albany is the only game in town, so to speak, when it comes to east-of-Hudson freight access.
Correct, and the reason the Poughkeepsie bridge went out of service was because of a fire which happened about 20 years ago. Well, if rehab is a dead issue, another location for a freight rail line would be in order. The questions are where and when?
I grew up in the shadow of the Poughkeepsie bridge... it opened in December 1888 and saw its last train on 8 May 1974, when a Penn Central freight with a hotbox threw enough sparks that smoldered and eventually set it on fire. It had been part of the Central New England, later New Haven, and never connected with the north-south lines on either side of the river. Encroachment on the ROW on both sides of the river, and the loss of many of the highway bridges on the east side, would make reactivation of the line an extremely expensive proposition, not to mention that the clearances on the west side would not accomodate double stacks.
Here's a 1904 postcard view of the bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well reactivation would be much cheaper than a new freight bridge or tunnel.
Not likely, if you assume that clearance for double stacks would be required (and I think that's a valid assumption today). I've walked much of the ROW years ago and I'm familiar with the tight clearances for even conventional boxcars... keep in mind that this line was opened in 1888 and hasn't had any significant changes since then, other than strengthening of the bridge in the first decade of the last century.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would it be as expensive in dollars and time as the assumed tunnel. The bridge would have the option of going to Penn, GCT , Hellgate or New England.
Did the senators venture a guess on how Penn will accommodate the increase of traffic? There is no additional space on the eastern side for the LIRR.
I beleive they are talkin Political B.S. for public consumption.
avid
I don't have figures on the tunnel so I can't compare, but bear in mind that the Poughkeepsie bridge route does not connect with either of the north-south routes along the Hudson, and doing so would be incredibly expensive. Its value would be in traffic between New England and points south and west via Pennsylvania, rather than across the southern tier of New York State. It would bypass New York City entirely. This is strictly a potential freight route we're talking about, not one that would have any benefit from a passenger standpoint. Poughkeepsie is nearly 80 miles north of NYC, at the very fringe of the NY commuter zone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ROW was at one time being considered as a limited access 2-lane highway known as county route 11. It would have connected the town of Poughkeepsie with the town of East Fishkill not too far from John Jay High School. These plans never went any further. I think the RR overpass over route 55 was also taken down, though the concrete arch bridge over Fishkill(?) creek still stands. Next time I'm there, I'll take a ride over and see what's up ... or not :)
--Mark
Yes, the route 55 overpass is gone... it was a barrier to 13' 9" trucks... I think clearance had been around 12'. Don't remember whether or not the bridge across the creek is still there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a good page discussing the Poughkeepsie Bridge's History, and coverage of the fire and its immediate aftermath by the Poughkeepsie Journal.
--Mark
Correct, and the reason the Poughkeepsie bridge went out of service was because of a fire which happened about 20 years ago. Well, if rehab is a dead issue, another location for a freight rail line would be in order. The questions are where and when?
There's been talk about building a replacement for the Tappan Zee Bridge. If that ever comes to pass, hopefully there'd be a rail line along with the roadways. Or possibly the old bridge could be converted to rail use.
I doubt anything will happen for several years, at the bare minimum.
"Or possibly the old bridge could be converted to rail use.
"
Not likely. Highway grades are not suitable for rail use.
Take a look at that Poughkeepsie bridge.... Flat as a pancake, from a high place on the east to a high place on the west.
Now go find a picture of the tappan zee bridge. Most of it is only a few feet above river level, but with a huge arch in the middle for boats to pass under. Trains cannot rule that grade.
Elias
Those who are familiar with the Tappan Zee know that, on the west shore, the road climbs steeply, with sharp curves. One of the proposals has been for a bridge that would cross the Hudson at that higher level, descending gradually toward the Tarrytown shore, with a rail level that would descend even more gradually. Exactly the route it would take on either side wasn't clear from the synopsis I saw, although there is a RR grade that crosses the highway on an overpass some distance west of the Tappan Zee; I don't know enough about the existing RR lines to know where a reasonable connection could be made on the eastern side.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't the Tappan Zee also having some structural problems, which is what's prompting its replacement in the first place?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Not only have they discussed a road/rail tunnel to replace the Tappan Zee Bridge, but also there have been discussions about building a similar structure in lieu of the never-built Oyster Bay-Rye Bridge. It could be built for a fraction of the cost of a bridge.
In fact, according to Steve Anderson's NYC Roads site, there's even discussion of putting the entire I-287 corridor underground from Spring Valley to Syosset!
:-) Andrew
...but such an enourmous plan as the latter would be in the VERY long term.
:-) Andrew
Two words come IMMEDIATELY to mind ... "Ramapo fault" ...
Whadayamean?!?!? What did Ramapo do?
;-D Andrew
Heh. It's the earthquake fault that runs under Indian Point. Been way too quiet the last 50 years for my comfort ... dunno if I'd want to ride in a tunnel through it ...
I know. I know. ;-D Jusdt being silly.
:-) Andrew
Hey! That's MY job! :)
Sometimes ya can't be so sure ... there's some folks on here that take life WAY too seriously. Glad to see you're not one of them.
You have been cited for excessive silliness. You are hereby sentenced to pay the appropriate fine to the Department of Revenue at once. Pay by credit card, check, or MetroCard. Subway tokens not accepted.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Damn! Gonna have to hock the bluesmobile! :)
How much has heypaul had to pay?
How much has heypaul had to pay?
Where do you think that multi-billion dollar budget surplus came from?
under what ordinance here ??... smoking dope ??..weed ??..anyway what do you expect from a city that uses OPTO
because they are so dammed cheap !!!
salaam I think that statement was a joke. Also OPTO makes sense so long as most of the platforms are the right side. OPTO works fine on the MBTA blue line. Just because some union boss wants to steel money doesn't make it a good idea. IF unions had their way there would still be a C/O on every car.
Styrofoam brain has no sense of humor at all or any sense for that matter
Peace,
ANDEE
StyrofoamTM is a trademark, and you could get in trouble for besmirching its reputation with your previous post.
LOL
Is it that time of year already? The time of year when salaam seems a few fries short of a 'Happy Meal' and the rest of us beat on him? I think we're starting a few weeks early this year - so let's try to hold off a bit. :)
MAYBE... you're right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh my! I didn't know that we were all experts on the Poughkeepsie bridge. ;) Seems like it was a great way to cross the Hudson at one time, but it won't cut it for 21st century relief for New York's Mass Transit system. Where do we go from here? A new tunnel to Penn Station? A new tunnel elsewhere, or just give up and try to put something on the George Washington Bridge? Something tells me that our two ESTEEMED senators from New Jersey are not that enlightened on this pressing issue....
Pat
Oh my! I didn't know that we were all experts on the Poughkeepsie bridge. ;) Seems like it was a great way to cross the Hudson at one time, but it won't cut it for 21st century relief for New York's Mass Transit system. Where do we go from here? A new tunnel to Penn Station? A new tunnel elsewhere, or just give up and try to put something on the George Washington Bridge? Something tells me that our two ESTEEMED senators from New Jersey are not that enlightened on this pressing issue....
As noted elsewhere, a rebuilt Poughkeepsie Bridge (in the extremely unlikely event it were possible) would do just about nothing for mass transit. Putting a rail line across the George Washington Bridge might be possible from an engineering standpoint, but the vehicular traffic tie-ups during construction and even after completion would be unbearable.
If there has to be another freight and passenger link across the Hudson, it's probably a tunnel or nothing.
Actually, the original proponent of the cross harbor rail tunnel is Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY).
Rep. Nadler, a strong vocal supporter of mass transit and rail, has been behind this project for several years.
Too bad this tunnel wasn't completed in 1921, when the Port of New York and New Jersey Authority was formed. After all, the rail tunnel project was the reason for it's creation. Good thing they are getting out of markets that do not concern them, like the World Trade Center complex.
I'm looking for Paris metro posters, like the ones on the walls of the RER and Metro stations. Station maps, instructions, notices, etc. (not the large commercial ads! :) Let me know if you know of any suppliers, or if a nice letter to the RATP/SNCF can get me some. Thanks-
J.
Why don't you write the nice letter and find out for us? :)
-Dave
Better fire off that letter and hope the person's english is good enough to understand what you want.
I can tell you that the RATP Boutique in Paris does not sell posters of this type, nor of any similar styled posters such as the ones that the London Underground sell.
Your best bet is just to get a subway and/or bus map (which is fairly decent in size) and frame it.
My French is Ok...I may be able to write a letter that they'll understand. I didn't know the RATP had a boutique - do you know where it is? It surprises me that they wouldn't sell anything like what I'm looking for. I know there's interest, probably just not enough.
The RATP Boutique is located in the Chatelet-Les Halles station by the fare control area in the mezzanine.
Click here for the boutique web page on www.ratp.fr
Here are the main letter codes for subway Stations. Each has a letter and a number. If a stairway is double/triple eide a trailing letter is added- ie. M1A,M1B.
M... Mezzanine
S... Street
P... Platform
O... Outside maintained. Usually a sign nearby shows the group ie Citibank.
G... Transit Employeeuse such as restrooms, towers, crew offices, etc.
PL.. Lower Platform
PU.. Upper Platform
ML.. Lower Mezzanine
MU.. Upper Mezzanine
Most stairways have the "code" painted on the stairway riser, the tile wall or on a plaque attached to these locations. The code is useful to report as condition such as "we have a panhandler on Stairway S4".
Thanks! I have always wondered about these stairway codes, and I've been meaning to pose the question here for some time.
Do escalators have codes ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Escalators and elevators have three-digit numbers, preceded by "E" (escalators) or "EL" (elevators). When an escalator or elevator is replaced, the new unit gets the old number.
David
Do escalators have codes ?
B6 = Broken, might be fixed in six months.
B1Y = Broken, might be fixed in a year.
BN = Broken, probably never will be fixed.
BD = Broken, only runs down.
(Either that, or a train that gets really confused at DeKalb.)
Ramps (ugh) are simply numbered, correct?
Ramps are usually numbered and if there is signage it simply reads "Ramp No. 1" or "RampNo. 2" etc.
Thanks -- that's what I thought.
Which stations have numbered ramps? The Times Square and Fulton Street complexes are the obvious ones, and Stillwell Avenue has ramps to each of the platforms, but I'm sure there are others.
Broadway-Nassau/ Fulton Street and Times Square Complex have numbered ramps. Herald Square Complex(34 on the N/R/B/D/F/Q) and Stillwell doe not. Stillwell also does**not** have ramps to the B platform. BTWS- the Stilwell ramps are not ADA compliant--too steep although I have seen customers using a wheelchair on these ramps without assistance-going up and down. As part of the rebuild, Stillwell will have full ADA access to all Platforms. Whether that means new ramps which are ADA compliant or simply elevators I do not know.
I'm hoping for elevators. Ramps are just annoying for everyone who can use stairs (i.e., the vast majority of us) since they take longer to use than stairs. They also tire me out something terrible, but I don't know if they do that to the rest of us.
Stillwell ramps were Coney Island compliant. Somewhat thrilling on the way down, slower on cueing time.
avid
Interesting story on cnn.com. Isn't the deadman's switch supposed to prevent incidents like this?
Up date- CSX some how coupled a loco. from a sideing to trailing car. Though unable to connect air hose the loco. dragged the consist of 45 cars down to 10 mph where an emp. jumped on the lead loco. and got it stopped. The freight travled 70milrs. There were never any crew on board.
thats the good question here !! where was the TO how did this CSX locomotive self power itself ?? hmmmmmm....
anyway i thought the ""dead man" switch prevents this "runaway train" from happening in the first place !!???....
( oh well )
Freight trains don't have deadperson switches.
Most do, it's a mushroom on the floor ... ah, but the CATCH is, when released, it only removes power ... later versions would apply brakes a few miles down the road as well. When you're in a cab, you sometimes have to leave the position to futz around in the cabinets, figure out why there's water on the floor, hit the nose for a weewee break and numerous other things that go with the ride.
Put a run away that's just idling on a downgrade and it will pick up speed ... should be curious though to hear the story of how that one got away ...
From what I've heard, it sounds like the loco had a mind of it's own. I'd think traveling 70 miles, and hitting speeds reported to be over 40, that the loco somehow popped into a power notch. I don't think just losing the brakes would do this.
Anyway, as for why it would do a thing like that? Short circuit somewhere...
Of course, I don't know what kind of locomotive it is. It'd be interesting (and scary!) if it were one of the newer computerized units, and the computer was having a bad day...
Nope ... looks like an SD40-2 from the picture and they're as low tech as it gets. Without any details, speculation would be downright wrong here but with the brake pipe in full release, it's entirely possible that at "idle" you could build up to speeds like the reported 43 MPH just on a downgrade by gravity alone. There was nobody in the cab and I can't see crew jumping off it for a switch move or other operation with the throttle up. Anything's possible though.
Most yards are built on a slight downgrade in one direction to allow gravity to hump cars, so it IS possible that the loco had brakes released but no "power" applied ... things like this can and do happen though rarely. I'm sure someone will be in beaucoup trouble for not applying the park brakes, but remember - this exact kinda situation happened with a 142 or 142A delivery recently on NYCTA where 5 cars "got away" from the yards and went on their own unpowered joyride. :)
looks like an SD40-2 from the picture
Yes, it is... CSX 8888 is ex-Conrail 6410, an SD40-2.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lets see what postion the controler was in. Wasn't Run 8 with only 40 cars??
Heard rumors the crew went on the ground for some switch throwing. Fantasitc all the grade crossing worked since there was no horn from the train.
The TV news stations reported that the railroad crossings did not activate. Was this because the reporters learned that police cars were dispatched to close off roads, and assumed that the crossing gates did not close (and didn't bother to ask)?
I assume that the RR crossing activation circuit does not depend in any way on an engineer being in the cab of a train in the affected track block.
The TV news stations reported that the railroad crossings did not activate.
My impression was that many grade crossings were protected by stationary, non-lighted, non-mechanical crossbucks that warned of the presence of a grade crossing and that the headlight and locomotive horn warned of an approaching train.
Yes, that's possible, and certainly the case in rural areas...
"Yes, that's possible, and certainly the case in rural areas.."
Well out here, we have more crossings than officers. In fact there may be only one or two deputies on call at any one time in the whole county. No way they are going to be able to guard grade crossings.
The cops likely enough wouldn't even know where all of the grade crossings were.
Elias
Private roads do not require grade crossing signals - here in Voorheesville for example, there are two village streets that have gates and lights and two village streets that do NOT. Reason is nobody really uses the other two streets but they do cross the tracks. Horns are appropriate here since they need to blow them anyway for the other crossings. Chances are those were the type of crossings police were dispatched to cover.
Remember one thing about "urinalists" ... they're STORY TELLERS and have little interest in anything "technical" ... since their own shining personalities are all they largely care about (I used to be a News Director for radio and TV operations and was an on camera anchor on TV myself, so no guff please from NTRDA members) and their idea of researching a story involves picking up a press release from a table at the back of the room, sitting down in the peanut gallery for a few seconds for some canned "reaction shots" and then darting off for a coffee or a gin. Whatever's in the press release is sufficient "research" these days.
And again, a sign of age - when I knocked off from a story, I'd end up sitting and shooting the sheet with my other buddies in some local gin mill (or we'd keep a bottle of cheer in our pockets) and leave clouds of smoke around us, the modern "press" and their damned Perrier bottles. :)
But "press reports" ain't worth a warm pail of spit ...
"so no guff please from NTRDA members"
CORRECTION
The editorial staff wishes to apologize for an error in the above quote, it should have read RTNDA (Radio and Television new Directors Assn). This paper regrets the error, yada yada ...
Believe it or not we had a train roll 100 miles from the Livingston, MT yard to Laurel a few years ago. Even with a few humps en route that didn't stop it; although not visible either on the rails nor highway the elevation drops some 1200 feet between those places. That was a fun stretch to run, the engineer was never idle. Going est totally boring...8-throttle most of the way, east was a roller coaster.
How this train got away I don't know...somebody screwed up. It was finally stopped by intentional derailment by track people.
Some of MRL's engines didn't have alertors yet. Almost all the BN ones I ran did; BTW the foot pedal dead-man is history in most places. Anymore most big-road engines have an alertor device that , as long as brakes are in release, has to be pushed every so often. Or brakes will set up if you don't. If you blow the horn that will reset the alertor for another cycle, maybe 10 seconds. The faster you go the faster the cycles, if you don't push the button it beeps , if you don't acknowledge it sets brakes.Better than the old dead-man pedal.
I hated those things when they first got them but after a few surprise calls for night runs I was sure glad we had them.
Good to see you, Big Ed....
Apparently it comes out that the brakes were not in release, so does that shut down the alerter?
Elias
Good to hear from you too. I don't remember all the details of that runaway or know if that loco on the point had an alerter. Some MRL engines didn't. You can have the train charging with the engine brake set and it won't be activated. But then how would that train roll that far with engine brakes set?
If the crew left the train charging and went to do another chore or went for coffee, etc I'd hate to think they'd leave the independent in release but people do make mistakes. I made enough myself.
I have another report that the Engineer was moving the cut and same to a switch set against him. Inorder not to have to stop the movement he applied and brake and set the throttle to 8 so the locomotive would keep creeping along while he set the switch. Anyway. for some reason he didn't get back on the train and it began to run away. Because the cut was a yard movement none of the cars had air in them for braking so after the engine brakes wore away there was nothing to retard the trains movement.
i just knew this could not happen ! a runaway train without any operator in the cab when i drove a bus believe me the brakes were
set and i blocked the wheels before i de boarded !! & if i was any kind of a train operator the brakes would be set everytime!!
i dont care what i had to to no chance of a huge locomotive/transit car getting away from me !!
Now THAT makes sense! As opposed to the laymen-ized CSX press
release. What exactly was the "third brake lever" that they
referred to?
Now I know what you're going to say....if only that switch had
been trailable...
for some reason he didn't get back on the train and it began to run away
From AP story in Thursday's Inquirer: By the time he realized the mistake, he had hopped off the train to manually switch tracks, CSX said. The train was moving too fast for him to get back on board.
The engineer chased the train, grabbing onto a railing on the engine, said Fred Agler, transportation director for the Ohio Public Utilities Commission. But the railing was wet from rain, and the engineer couldn't pull himself up, Agler said. He said the train dragged the engineer about 80 feet before he fell to the ground.
Given that the engineer had 35 years on the job, [beware ageist comment], age-related physical limitations may have come into play regarding his inability to pull himself up onto the locomotive.
Risky move. I wonder how good his chances were to fall the wrong way and get run over...I'm glad he wasn't hurt.
Now that I read it was a yard move I understand things a little better. I ran switch engines for a few Years; I see why the engineer went out to line the switch, wondered why he had no help in the cab.No air in the cars, yes it would take a while to stop especially leaving power on. That was living dangerously.
For Jeff H.'s post I too wondered what the third brake was. The only ones I know of are automatic and independednt (train and engine )you could call dynamic the third but likely wouldn't be of help at a crawling speed.If the loco were dynamic equipped maybe thats the answer..instead of 8-dynamic he put it in run-8 instead.
On MRL we weren't allowed to run thru "rubber" or trailable switches.Most of the guys did it anyway, so did I especially with heavy cuts. Then I got a violation for not reporting flat [wheel] spots as Ihad an engine I liked, tried to get their work done, and of course the flat spots got worse. After that I stopped even for rubber switches and hand lined them.No more favors on my neck. Takes longer, more fuel, more brake shoe wear...theirs not mine.
Yeah, that was an Ex-Gonerail loco ... a dash 2 and it had the Dynamics on it (when you think about it, you've got a mile of air behind you, what's the POINT of dynamics?) so Dynamic 8 was an option. Of course, they were also fitted with a fourth throttle that would take you up to Ocean's 11 but only on the seashore lines. :)
Believe it or not we had a train roll 100 miles from the Livingston, MT yard to Laurel a few years ago. Even with a few humps en route that didn't stop it; although not visible either on the rails nor highway the elevation drops some 1200 feet between those places. That was a fun stretch to run, the engineer was never idle. Going west totally boring...8-throttle most of the way, east was a roller coaster.
How this train got away I don't know...somebody screwed up. It was finally stopped by intentional derailment by track people.
Some of MRL's engines didn't have alertors yet. Almost all the BN ones I ran did; BTW the foot pedal dead-man is history in most places. Anymore most big-road engines have an alertor device that , as long as brakes are in release, has to be pushed every so often. Or brakes will set up if you don't. If you blow the horn that will reset the alertor for another cycle, maybe 10 seconds. The faster you go the faster the cycles, if you don't push the button it beeps , if you don't acknowledge it sets brakes.Better than the old dead-man pedal.
I hated those things when they first got them but after a few surprise calls for night runs I was sure glad we had them.
I saw something like that in a railroad museum & transit museums where one had the largest UNION PACIFIC diesel locomotive
ever built ( now retired ) and sitting in a railroad museum nex tto the pomona fair grounds here in los angeles county california
Also the collection of diesel locomotives at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california the home of the old los angeles
railway system PE cars, S.F. key cars, and a nice collection of old diesel locomotives etc. where the deadman switch was somewhat
explained as to how if the operator does not keep pressure on this foot lever & or some kind of a switch or the locomotive stops !!
I will be sure to ask this question again as to how this really works ( thanks ) ...
I saw something like that in a railroad museum & transit museums where one had the largest UNION PACIFIC diesel locomotive
ever built ( now retired ) and sitting in a railroad museum next to the pomona fair grounds here in los angeles county california
Also the collection of diesel locomotives at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california the home of the old los angeles
railway system PE cars, S.F. key cars, and a nice collection of old diesel locomotives etc. where the deadman switch was somewhat
explained as to how if the operator does not keep pressure on this foot lever & or some kind of a switch or the locomotive stops !!
I will be sure to ask this question again as to how this really works ( thanks ) ...
Thanks for the info., Salaam.
I do not beleive we will ever get the dirt as to how this ohio CSX 8888 locomotive was running drifting & with out any TO
& wait and see how the SILENCE on this will continue to fade away ....
Fortunately the event recorder, if present & operational, will shed some light on this incident. It is alleged that something similar happened to an R-68A in concourse Yd. some months ago. No one was hurt in that incident. It is possible, under some circumstances for a train to charge and release its brakes.
When invstigators boarded the train the throttle was in Run 8, but the automatic brake had a 20 pound reduction and the independant brake was full on.
What's your source, Mike? This contradicts what CNN is reporting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As it turns out my source was correct and I brought you the story a full 7 hours before official answer was posted.
I still believe that heypaul was somehow involved in the CSX runaway train fiasco.
BMTman
And just in case the suspicious eye leans in my direction, I have an alibi ... I was here. :)
I have an alibi ... I was here. :)
Posting from Toledo again, I see... :o)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. No offense to Toledo, but I'd rather be in Philadelphia. Whoop, my bad. :)
HeyWho?
I think there was also an incident at 179th street where a train took off from the platform, doors open and all, again, nobody on board. This kinda thing isn't ALL that unusual actually. Rare, but not unheard of ...
NTSB will DEFINITELY be issuing a report - might take a year or so but they're going to want to write up a bulletin on this one. We'll need to look for it when it does come out as the press has had their feeding and it's time for them to move onto the next story.
The one thing a lot of people forget about diesels (and in particular deputy Barney there with his musket) is that the big growling motor is a power plant on wheels ... there isn't a transmission here like a car. Just because the motor's running doesn't mean that the motors on the wheels are running. Diesels are just like subway cars with electric motors on the trucks. Unlike the subway though, you've gotta carry the power substation WITH you. I seriously doubt the "power" was applied to the wheels and that gravity was the power. The question would be solely "what was the deal with the brakes?"
Once upon a time there was a Deadman Pedal on mainline diesels locomotive. But clever engineers would get lazy and use there grip bags to hold the pedal down. The brains figured this out and as I recall at least on Southern's delivery of later GP 38's they came equipped with a new system.
This system eliminated the pedal and replaced it with an electronic system where the engineer had to touch a different control ever few seconds or move a control. If he didn't a large noise maker would go off and a very bright strobe light would start flashing. With no response by engineer the air would dump with the desired stopping of the train.
Big ED or Selkirk can probably give more details as they operated later than '77.
But what happened to CSX 8888. Only the NTSB can tell and that may take a year or two. I did notice that 8888 was an older what looked like a SD 45 and my have had the older dead man pedal.
We await the NTSB
Burn the Slow Orders Run Eight or Wrap It
Curt
Someone is going to get stung for that runaway train, so we will just have to wait and see. After the Amtrak accident a few years back when a Conrail locomotive operated by Ricky Gates caused such destruction and loss of life, any unusual event will be checked out by the NTSB to find out who goofed. Fortunately in this case, no one was injured and nothing was damaged.
I've been on the Conrail SD40-2's ... a LOT. When the timer runs down and you get your indication, power is dropped first and air isn't applied for a while. I forget how long since you just didn't want to operate into a penalty braking. Since they were building a consist when the train left, I'd have to assume that there was brake pipe and since nobody was on board, I can't see throttle up. Definitely a curious mystery as to what happened ... no sparks seen so apparently the brakes were in full release. But as I indicated before, it's QUITE possible for a loco to have gravity alone get it up to some mighty impressive speeds. Why the park brake wasn't on is an interesting question though the practice of application is rare too.
Going to be an interesting report whenever we get to see it. I also have to guess that FRED wasn't riding on the rear coupler ... would have been QUITE interesting trying to drag the rear if FRED was in the way ...
CSX published an explanation. Prior to dismounting to set a switch, the engineer applied two brakes and then the throttle (by mistake) instead of the third brake.
CSX press release
If the train was running at 39 miles per hour they would need to remove the rails to stop it.
Not all locomotives have "Deadmans switches", more properly referred to as safety control, also the classic safety control installation (D-1 Foot Valve piloting a P-2-A Application Valve), is easy to defeat, see the '70s remake of the movie SILVER STREAK.
About a decade ago, Union Pacific had a locomotive started up by some kids in a yard in Texas and it ran about 230 miles before they got it switched onto a siding a crashed it into some parked boxcars there. I think that incident happened in the middle of the night, and I don't know if there were any lights on the train as it rumbled down the track.
i think the cnj had a run way engine back in the 50's. there was a story in popular science
Photo of lead locomotive #8888:
Courier-Post online, click on the obvious headline, then click on photo to enlarge it.
Here is the offical press release Web Page from CSX
http://www.csx.com/aboutus/news/press/pressview.cfm?ID=6020
ABC News says: At one point, a sheriff's deputy tried to stop the train by shooting its fuel tank. He also failed.
At one point, a sheriff's deputy tried to stop the train by shooting its fuel tank. He also failed.
I can't believe that he actually did that!
Anyone else think it a bit coincidental that the diesel road number was 8888. I guess we should be glad that it wasn't 6666!
Yep, like thats going to do any good.
Yee ... hah ... now what was THAT going to do? Prime mover stops eventually, the air bleeds off, now what are they going to do? Sounds like Deputy Barney needs some training. Sheesh.
question ....?? where did the TO operator go ?? if he had a medical problem why was he not in his operators cab ??
( oh well )
Perhaps he was on a comfort break or a meal break. God bless unions.
Update found in the Toledo paper at toledoblade.com four stories and maps. Also safety equip. on board #8888. The crew might be hurting big time.
WELL now ... according to "the blade" the throttle was in the Run 8 position after all ... oh this gets interesting ... have a read, folks:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Avis=TO&Dato=20010516&Kategori=NEWS11&Lopenr=105160008&Ref=AR
The alearter was a cab alearter that only goes odd in CCS territory.
Wow ... that's pretty useless then. (grin) I was sitting on this end wondering if we had some scene out of that Jon Voight movie, "Runaway train" where the shoes burned off and then the lead got smashed in, throttle up ... now that I've read the report I can only say it looks like they're going to be installing seat switches for throttle moves next ... you ain't in it, you can't move it. In retrospect, given that the guy who screwed up was with the railroad for THAT long, kinda hard to confuse the throttle with a brake handle ... that was an exceptional mistake. My head was pounding with theories on this end prior to the results.
Only shows to go you that as much as one can speculate, truth is weirder yet ...
The 40 dash 2 is an older locomotive, it was taken in by CSX from Conrail, and the controls may (or may not) have been configured differently.
Still. There is no reason for the engineer to get down to throw the switch. You have a conductor for that, and or yard crew, since they were making up the train in the yard.
Out here, we have a defect dtector just outside of town, so it happens that once in a while a train must stop and undergo a manual inspection. The Engineer remains in the cab, and the conductor climbs down and walks the train. A mile to the back on one side, and a mile to the front on the ohter.
110 in the shade or 30 below, the engineer gets to sit in his seat, in the cab, and wait for the conductor to make his inspection.
Elias
The official report should be interesting indeed. I was left with a number of other questions but the preliminary press release says the engineer screwd up, reached OVER the console and moved the wrong handle. Then there's your question and a bunch of others as well. I know those locos, spent a good amount of time on them and the mushrooms *DID* work on them back in the Gonerail days ...
By Mushroom, I presume you mean the alerter.
Did Big Ed say something about them being active only when the brakes were in full-release. These brakes were not released, but mostly applied, therefore the Alerter was not aware that the train was moving?
Meethinks they need:
1) a smarter Alerter
2) a smarter Operator
Elias
Nah, the "alertor" is, as described in the movie "Men in Black," "the flashy thing" in your face along with a honker that lets you know time's up before a penalty application and power off. The "mushroom" is the foot pedal you hold down (deadman) with your foot. Depending on whose press releases you read (whatever happened to INVESTIGATIVE reporting?) either the engineer was an idiot (hard to believe after 35 years with a railroad) or there was a mechanical problem of some sort. It is VERY difficult to swallow that so many systems all conspired to fail at once ... unless they were all disconnected ...
Now ... come on you railroaders, tell the folks here what happens to safety devices when they hold up a consist? :)
The one advantage that a subway has over a traditional railroad is that if a subway train goes through a red light, then it is "tripped". The FRA should use this idea, because freight, commuter, and Amtrak trains go through grade crossings. If some poor unsuspecting schmuck were to stall on the tracks and nobody is driving the train, then it could cause a catastrophe (not to mention the driver of the car). I know it takes longer for a conventional train to slow down, but it will eventually slow down. Install trip arms.
Install trip arms where? Most lines are unsignaled.
Does anyone know where do I go or call about picking up my radio. I'm from RTO A Division. The radios were given out to my fellow TO but I had to make up a day that I took off during training. I was thinking maybe I can call them and pick up the radio myself instead of waiting
You have to call the person at Training & Qualifications and be governed by his/her instructions. You cannot pick up a radio on your own, it has to be arranged.
..perhaps this topic was discussed
on that "day I took off in training"..
Some colleges wont let you take the final
...until you make up for all missed classes..
Gee I hope he didn't miss the topic of RED OVER RED.....
...with a "pick up the radio myself instead
of waiting" urgency which reeks of memoirs
of any common LaGuardia Airport Baggage Claim
Livery Standby Cabbie..
Isn't this the same fella who recently posted
claiming "I'm a T/O...where do I acquire a 69 key?"
and Alex L. chimed in with "if you had to have one
you would have been given one..".
You'd think T/O's would come "fully equipped" by NYCTA..
:l
Unfortunately, the radios are an after-thought. You can sign one out at the terminal to use for the day; but you have to wait until they get around to it to get your own. When I first came out, it took 2 months before I got my own radio.
The 69 key is not required, but radios are.
i am still waiting. where are they??
is not fair that every other irt line has at least one r62 and we have crap. the redbirds are great cars but its time for them to leave and leave fast.
FYI: The 2 does not have any R62s although if you count the 3, it does...
BTW, you should enjoy the redbirds while they last. I take it you are a railfan...
>>>I take it you are a railfan... <<<
I take it he is a TROLL
So everybody is a troll if they don't worship crap cars like some scatophyllic wierdo.
The 2 did have one train set of R62's years ago, but they didnt stay long. I oftened wondered why this line never got any. does anybody have a clue?
it does not matter. they are getting brand new trains. the 7 is still going to be stuck with these old red craps forever!!!!
A fair question is still a fare question,Chris.... as a mater of fact, im am fan or former rider of the JAMAICA LINE[J]!! Think of how I must have felt for years,riding on the R 1-9/16/27-30 and now the R40M/42S? The Flushing line has been the show piece of the subway system for years,even with the R33/36 cars. CORONA barn has mantained these cars very well over thew last 37 years even with defered repairing. The Jamaica line had to deal with the worst of the worst and still get people to where they had to go. YOU ARE MAD ABOUT THE 7 NOT GETTIN ANY 142 CARS?
hey how u know that?
Dude,I grew up on the subway. I know just as much as any body on this board. I use to ride the Jamaica line when it was called the ''QJ/KK''. I SAW one of the first R 44 come in,rode the first R46 from CONEY ISLAND on the F. AND I remember when the cars on the 7 were blue and white!!
"the 7 is still going to be stuck with these old red craps forever!!!!"
Ahh.... I remember when they were NEW, the besest cars on the whole railroad.... And those Picture Windows! That was the Line to ride.
And before that (albeit before my time) they got the new cars for the '39 World's Fair too!
Elias
9306 at the Transit Museum in its original interior and exterior color scheme is still the best looking car in the fleet, and the TA was smart to paint the R-10 fleet the same way. Hard to believe the same people came up with the Color Scheme from Hell -- pistachio green interior with gray doors -- for the MTA corporate paint job in 1971-73.
As Pigs has mentioned, other than a few temporary fill-ins during GOH, the Flushing Line has never, ever gotten hand-me-down equipment, and the current `Birds still have as good or better MBDF numbers than a lot of new cars in the fleet, probably because they have been at the same shop for 37 years.
Yea, there time is coming, but I find it funny to see the first hints of grumbling on the board that the 7 is going to be "stuck" with those R-62s in the near future. I guess if it ain't brand new out of the box, it ain't squat to some people.
Cause the 2 line is jinxed. I remember seeing R62s on the 2 in early 1984. Being so used to seeing R15s through 33s completely covered in graffitti, the R62s were a welcome change of pace. It was the first time I ever saw a clean subway train and also the first IRT train I saw with color route signs. Every IRT train I saw before then had the old, illegible black-and-white 1950s roll signs. I really wanted to see R62s on the 2.
Thats what I was tryin to say to Chris -7, but he's mad at the T.A.
Well, in a way, I can understand where Chris is coming from. His line, the 7, has had the same old cars for nearly 40 years. He probably remembers the bad old days when they were covered in grafitti, had no A/C or working heat and broke down all the time. I sure remember those days, as I'm sure many other people on this board do. The difference is most lines have had their nasty old cars replaced or restored to a like-new condition. Compare the original interiors of the R32s, 38s, 40s and 42s with what they have now. They almost look like completely different cars. When I rode an R32 for the first time since their GOH, I couldn't believe they once had blue doors, straps and bulkhead roll signs. They looked that much different.
On the other hand, the Redbirds look almost exactly the same as they did before GOH. When I first saw the R26s, 28s, 29s, 33s and 36s in the Redbird scheme, I thought they just painted them red to cover all the graffitti, just as they did when they painted them white and thought, "They'll be full of graffitti in a matter of months." I was eight years old when the R26s to 36s came back as Redbirds and I definitely wasn't happy to see them back on the 2 and 5, while the 1, 3, 4 and 6 got the brand new R62/62As. To me, all that mattered were the things I could see, not what I couldn't see. The old cars may have gotten new "guts," but they still looked the same and I thought my home lines were being shafted. And I think the 7 was too.
Now the TA wants to replace the Redbirds on the 2 and 5 as well as on the 6. Apparently the TA didn't order enough R62As to replace the entire 6 line fleet (the TA thinks of everything, don't they?). So there are Redbirds on the 6 line as well as R62As. But there are R62As, (until now) the newest IRT cars, and the 6 is going to get R142As. Unfortunately, the interiors of the R62/62As have taken quite a beating with all the bullet holes and dents in them and they are probably going to still be that way when they are transferred to Corona. How should 7 line riders feel about that? I think if R62As were transferred to the 7 five years ago after all the rehabilitation of the Flushing line and Steinway tunnels was done, this wouldn't be such a touchy issue now because 7 line riders would have gotten the newest IRT cars in 1996.
But yes, the R62As are very reliable cars and still have many good years left in them. The fact that they're going there now is better than them never going there. It is one more improvement for the Flushing line. The TA wants to give the R142/142As a few years to prove themselves and improve the Corona barn (they better improve it!) to handle them. Also with the 7 being an isolated line from the rest of the IRT, it's not a good idea for subway cars with brand new (to New York) technology. But Flushing is getting is getting newer, better and more reliable cars, which are long overdue.
Unfortunately, the interiors of the R62/62As have taken quite a beating with all the bullet holes and dents in them and they are probably going to still be that way when they are transferred to Corona.
Those can't possibly be bullet holes. They don't look like them.
Besides, this isn't 1977. Gunplay on the subway isn't as common as you'd think.
Maybe Deputy Barney of CSX/Ohio fame decided to come east and shoot up a few IRT cars ... (for those who missed the thread, a police office in Ohio figured he could stop the runaway train by shooting out the gas tank ... and you think the folks who live UPSTATE are nuts) ...
Deputy Fife has modified his story, as of Thursday morning to make it sound even more far-fetched (see paragraph five in the AP story below) -- Kind of like that old Tex Avery cartoon where the wolf shoots a fly off the edge of a mesa from two miles away.
Of course, the real deputy Fife would have used his one bullet to accidentally shoot out the dashboard on his vehicle. Maybe they should have tried using Earnest T. Bass with a brick to stop the train :-)
***
WALBRIDGE, Ohio (AP) - An engineer whose error sent a train with hazardous cargo on a nearly 70-mile journey through Ohio without a crew desperately tried to climb on the locomotive and stop it, railroad investigators said.
The railing was slick from rain, and the engineer couldn't pull himself aboard. He was dragged about 80 feet and fell to the ground, investigators said Wednesday.
The engineer mistakenly hit the throttle instead of a brake as he pulled through a railyard Tuesday. He hopped off the train to manually switch tracks and saw the 47-car train pulling away.
For two hours, the train sailed at speeds at times nearing 50 mph. Rail workers ran toward the engine several times to jump aboard, but the train was moving too fast.
At one point, a state trooper fired a shotgun at the train, hoping to hit a fuel-cutoff button. Twice rail workers tried to derail the train, veering it to a side track and hoping the shift would send the cars tumbling off the track.
With no one aboard, there were no warning whistles to alert cars that the train was coming. Volunteer firefighters and ambulance drivers raced to stay ahead of the train and block crossings. A medical helicopter hovered above in case there was a collision.
Eventually, CSX workers caught up to the train with another locomotive and attached it to the last car, applying the brakes and slowing the runaway train down to 10 to 15 mph.
That allowed Jon Hosfeld, a 31-year CSX employee, to grab a railing, pull himself aboard and stop the train outside Kenton, about 55 miles northwest of Columbus.
"The adrenaline was going and I knew what I had to do," he said. "I just wanted to make sure I didn't get injured."
The train's engineer, who has worked for the railroad for 35 years, had set two of three brakes on the train, investigators said. He thought he had set the third brake but accidentally hit the throttle instead.
"The effect would be similar to pressing down on the brake and accelerator simultaneously in an automobile, but under much more complex circumstances," said Alan F. Crown, CSX's executive vice president-transportation.
Federal investigators met with the engineer, who has a clean safety record, for several hours Wednesday morning, CSX said. The Public Utilities Commission of Ohio was assisting with the investigation.
The engineer's name was not released.
"He acknowledged that he made a serious error in judgment, and he will be held accountable," Crown said.
["He acknowledged that he made a serious error in judgment, and he will be held accountable," Crown said.]
Sounds like 'early retirement' with another Engineer moving higher up on the senority ladder...
BMTman
Wow ... I'll bet he makes CHIEF in a couple of weeks ... after he's mopped up the 24 miles of diesel spill of course ...
maybe he means the external speakers on the R62s, which
look like a shotgun blast?
Yeah that's what I was thinking. All those holes are dents from something. If there were that many shootings on the subway that would be a major problem.
Coney Island shops will have to become Bombardier R62-friendly, whatever that involves, maybe not much. They will also have to put double-trip cocks on some of them.
The 1 got R62A's because it was the scroungiest and the TA wanted to make an impact, and the 3 got them because of 9 car trains. So something had to get Redbirds.
When the R-142's start making regular service runs, R-62A's on the 6 will go to the 7 line. I imagine that some from the 6 will go to the 3 and the single unit R-62A's will also head for the '7'. You should see some of them in about 2 months, give or take.
And the redbirds were never great cars. More like cars that got the job done. Even when new, redbirds weren't an advanced technology. And now, they are old and rusted out. You're right, the 7 needs new cars.
I'll admit from a railfan point-of-view the Redbirds are great, but I'll also admit I get pretty exhausted after a ride on the 7 train.
the # 7 was always a rough ride even when the wf 33-36s were still new !! the ride was the same as it is now !!
stop crying like a little baby !! & belly aching !! & whiiiiinnnnnneeeeeeing !!!!
He's entitled to his opinion of the Redbirds, just as your are to your ignorant and stupid opinion about stainless steel cars (styrofoam, your brain is made of styrofoam, Salaam!). Oh and by the way, to show how little you know, the 7 is not a rough ride. I've ridden it and I've never found it to be a rough ride. Crowded maybe, but the 7 express is one nice ride. It deserves new (or newer) cars and 7 line riders deserved new cars. So do 2/5 line riders like me! I won't miss the Redbirds when they're gone. I never had that many good memories of them. It's you, Salaam, that needs to stop whining and belly aching like the big baby that you are and calling people names! You stop crying like a big baby that the Redbirds are going out of service. Stay in Los Angeles if you don't like it!
Wow, that felt good.
sorry but i was just laying out the true facts especailly about how GREAT and wonderful the Flushing wf33-36 series cars are
then and even now that they are senior citizens of the # 7 !!! which will definately last longer than your 142 Junkers/scrap ready !
no complaints here my videos will be transfered to DVD soon and the GREAT WONDERFUL REDBIRDS will last forever !!!
finally this is a free country last time i checked will see you anti redbirds NUTS this fall during the baseball playoffs !!!
If you have the guts to come out here to the wild wild west at least visit the old classics at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM
in peris california !! ( get a life guy grow up ) !!
so What you are saying is that the redbirds were bad even when they were new?
we got to understand somthing. the redbirds back then in the late 50's and early 60's were new trains. they were like the r142's. but as years pass by, we get more technology and we get better trains.in 30 years from now, the r142 will be crap. they will be like the birds. all rotted, broken..
also, we cant get the r142's because corona yard does not have the "technology" it needs to maintain these cars. I mean, look, the 7 is a very busy line. people come from around the city to see the mets, and people come nation wide to see the u.s open. we want tourists to get on nice trains. i mean this is new york, every thing is nice, for the most part. we dont want them to get on cheap old trains. i really wanted to get the r142's. i think they are hot, even though they have problems but they can be fixed. so now we are getting r62's which due back from 1983-86. i think every other irt line will have the r142's or they will have the majority of them.
its like the 7 is the junkyard for old trains. why cant the bring new equipment to corona yard and upgrade it so we can have r142's like every other irt line??? why cant each line have half r62's and half r142's?? we are one of the most used line in nyc. i think we all diserve nice trains, not one line with old cars and the others with brand new ones. we have to be fair.
1. In response to your previous message:
Even when new redbirds weren't new technology trains. Remeber that.
2. R62's are good cars. The #1,3,and 4 trains will be running them still. (Rumors sbound about the 3) these are some of the heaviest used lines in mainline IRT.
3. The Corona redbirds are the best redbirds there are. So, you might have redbirds, but you have the best redbirds that have some of the best MDBF's in the system.
I don't like the redbirds, but on the 7 they have given good service. You should be proud to have those redbirds (did I just say that?) What am I saying? You should be happy to be getting R-62's!
Not every line can get new trains. The Flushing Line has been fairly lucky throughout its career. First in the teens, then in 1938, then in 1948, and finally in 1964, they received brand-new rolling stock.
Some other lines haven't been as lucky. Consider the 14th Street- Canarsie Line, which for the first time since its opening is getting brand-new trains, not hand-me-downs. It's about time.
As far as what people who use a particular line "deserve"--who says the riders of other lines are any less deserving of new trains?
I wouldn't be surprised if ten years down the line, new yard equipment is installed at the Corona yard, and then the Flushing Line will get rolling stock NEWER than the R-142's.
Then....who will inherit the "old" R-62's?
>>I wouldn't be surprised if ten years down the line, new yard equipment is installed at the Corona yard, and then the Flushing Line will get rolling stock NEWER than the R-142's.
Then....who will inherit the "old" R-62's?<<
It's going to be a while before the TA gets any more new A div equipment.
It's going to be a while before the TA gets any more new A div equipment.
It will be in 2225 to replace the R-62.
It's going to be a while before the TA gets any more new A div equipment.
It will be in 2025 to replace the R-62.
NOT 2225!
bet you that by that time, evry irt line will be having the r200 series and as always the 7 will be still stuck with r62's. we are the junkyard for the tains. any old trains out there, just pass it on to the 7
Again. As I have mentioned before, there will be NO IRT cars between the completion of the R-142 delivery in 2003 or thereabouts and 2025 or thereabouts. So the newest car on the IRT come 2025 will be the R-142!
I thought there was something comming arround to replace the remaining redbirds, like R150 or so.
:-) Andrew
probably but i know they wont give it to the 7. we r still going to be with the old trains
Stop complaining. The 7 has always gotten the newest cars, but other lines never have. Look at the L. It's time for another line to have the chance for new cars.
the l is getting brand new r143's. and the last time the 7 has gotten new trains was when?? 1912?
1915, 1939, 1948 and 1964. Every single time it has ever gotten any different trains, they have been brand new.
When has the L gotten new trains? Let's see... NEVER!
"and the last time the 7 has gotten new trains was when?? 1912?"
The R33-36s were NEW to the 7 in 1964 (The World's Fair)
Before that in '39 also for the Fair.
Seems fair to me that all you need do is hold another fair!
Elias
If the Olympics in 2012 are held in NY and the 7 is extended to the West Side, you can expect new R-250O trains (careful, that last character is the letter O).
does anybody have a picture of the r250O train?
and whats with the 7 being extended to the west side?
does anybody have a picture of the r250O train?
and whats with the 7 being extended to the west side?
Maybe you can give me a picture of what the subway will look like in the 22nd Century, then I can give you a picture of the R-250O.
Rudy wants it so you can get to his new Yankee Stadium. The TA is studing it, but don't hold your breath waiting for it.
Mr t__:^)
hell no!! i dont want the 7 line to serve the new yankee stadium. get out of here. let them get there 4 or 6 train. the 7 is and only for the mets, the real champions
Mets are the real champions? I guess the last four out of five World Series are figments of my imagination.
In your universe, does the sun rise in the east?
come on every body knows Guliani pays for those scrubs.
face it THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah. Uh-hum. Right. Whatever you say.
In your universe, does the sun rise in the east?
The sun rises in the west only on Venus.
Actually, the Yankees aren't moving to the West Side anymore. The NFL Jets are the ones planning to move to a dome stadium there. Also the extension may occur whether they build the stadium or not because they want better access to Jacob Javits Center. Check out the extension studies at the MTA website.
Chris,
The R143 is a "B" Division car. It won't fit on the IRT.
i never said the r143's on the irt. if i did, it was mistake
Chris,
Here are the exact words you posted: "the l is getting brand new r143's. and the last time the 7 has gotten new trains was when?? 1912? "
That's why I posted what I did.
Your apology is accepted
you know whats you sitting down or standing, in the summer u are frying like you are in hell, in the winter you are frezzing like you are in antartica with no cloths, all because our heaters and ac's dont work. also you rocking back and fourth, hearing all these jerkey noise and motions and lights flickering on and off. for god sakes, we are in the new mellenium!!! get all these old trains out!!
These old trains are THANKFULLY going out.
Down with the Repulsive Rustbirds. Sooner to the sea, sooner from the subway.
All Redbirds will be replaced by the R-142 and R-142A.
Corona Shop is scheduled for an overhaul during the 2000-2004 Capital Program. This should allow them to maintain the R62 A cars or whatever may run on the line. Have patience- the subway was not built in a day and cant be rebuilt in a day either.
at lot sooner than the redbirds !! wont last 1/2 as long !!!
no........!
There are Redbirds and there are Redbirds. The R26 bodies are really shot, rot thru the steel around every window frame. On TV, some others still look pretty good and shiny, and they were built 5 years apart.
Yes. The R26s, 28s, 29s and 33s that currently run on the 2 and 5 are such horrible condition. Horribly rusted through and with peeling paint and poor heat and A/C. They need to go. But many of the R36s that I've seen on the 6 and 7 do look much better. Maybe they're better maintained (more Bondo, anyone?).
The surviving `Birds were really the last in the series of cars that began with the R-10s and were modified through the R-12/14/15/17/21/22 on the IRT.
There weren't many changes between the R-26/28s and the last series, which made perfect sense from the TA's standpoint, especially on the Flushing Line, where the only things "experimental" about the R-33/36 WFs were the picture windows, lower door windows and the exterior paint scheme and new TA emblem. The TA couldn't afford to try anyting new for the World's Fair order; it had to be running by April 22, 1964.
There hasn't been a really big outcry yet about the R-142's bugs, but imagine what would have heppened if riders had been promised the new cars would be ready for the 2000 World's Fair, and here it is May 2001 and they're still only intermittently in service -- lots of problems for the people in charge.
Charlie Patterson wasn't going to be any more daring in 1964 than trying to put in his automated shuttle (which didn't work out for him too hot -- or rather, it did work out too hot) to impress the folks. So the `Birds aren't innovative, but on the other hand, almost all of the original Flushing line WF cars are still alive, body rot and all.
I distinctly remember an R-62 train on the #7 probably sometime in the '80's. It was probably a trial run on the line, just like R-68's on the F about the same time!! Tony.
yea there is a picture of an r62 on the 7 in the late 80's. it was a test run.
Not every other IRT line has the R62s. Only the 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 42nd St Shuttle have them. The 2 doesn't have R62s either and is not going to get them now. But at least the 7 will see them.
a long time from now !! he he he ....
I've said it before, and I will say it again: The R-62As won't be much of an improvement if they won't actually be a step BACKWARD from the Redbirds. Probably the only improvement they will offer us straphangers over the Redbirds in their present state will be that the ride will be quieter, as the 62As are better insulated than the Redbirds. Otherwise:
The sculpted seats will mean that five, or maybe six, pax instead of eight or nine, will be able to sit comfortably on any one row of seats.
The stationary grab bars leave a lot to be desired when the right of way causes trains to rock and sway as they do on the 7. I liked the fact that the straps on the Redbirds "gave" with your hand. When I hold the stationary bars and the train sways, I feel like my arm is going to be pulled off.
And, finally, for the first time in what could be fifty or more years, the 7-line -- one of the heaviest-used and most prestigious lines in the system -- will get "second-hand" equipment that looks well past its prime at even fifteen years of age. What were once rather flashy metallic walls are now dent- and bullet hole-ridden, scratched, yellowed (from what, I don't know), and dingy eyesores. Give me the soothing cream and deep red tones of the Redbirds anyday.
If the 7 line MUST get the 62As, at least consider a mini-overhaul bringing the best of the older technology as mentioned above, with the assumed greater reliability and quieter interior of the newer.
There. A (sort of) balanced post extolling both the new and the old.
I agree with you on that they should give the 7's R62As (better yet, all R62/62As) new walls and bench seats. Those bench seats, which date back to the R44s, are bad. Possibly they could also give the R62s individual line maps.
But one thing about Redbird benches. I've never seen more than eight adult-sized people sitting on them. Maybe nine or ten kids can fit on one bench, but I normally see only seven adults sitting one bench at a time. And that's during rush hours.
And I've never seen less than that on a full R-62 bench.
You gotta be kidding.
I aggree about the sculpted seats, the worst idea the TA had with the R44/46/62/68. But just about everything else...
Like you say, the R62A's are a much quieter ride than any redbird. But they are also a much smoother ride. Plus the air conditioners work! Oh, and they're not about the break down any second!
I prefer the stationary grab bars to the straps too. One strap can only comfortably go with one person, but a stretch of bar can serve two or three--the area isn't greater, but it's much more comfortable to share if you have to. And I don't see how the "give" of the straps really helps much.
And so what if they are "hand-me-downs". Maybe they didn't originate on the 7, but they're twenty years younger than the redbirds, and in waaaay better shape. The sooner those R62As arrive, the better.
:-) Andrew
will the 7 even get the r142's in a few years or will we be stuck with 62's for another 5 million years?
I think once the TA finished realigning the Steinway tunnel tracks (how many years ago was that?), they should have sent R62A's to the 7.
And I don't see how the "give" of the straps really helps much.
It serves no purpose. Preventing side-to-side sway is the only reason to hold on when a train is moving. If one wants to go with side-to-side sway, don't hold on to anything except when the train is accelerating or braking.
Pig, you're saying it in reverse. I like the movement of the triangular strap because it, instead of my arm, absorbs the effect of the lateral motion of the car. If I held onto a stationary overhead bar, my muscles absorb this effect. The bar ain't giving me an inch. This would be no problem if I were a bit taller. Let the strap give to my arm. Why should my arm give to whatever it is I am holding? After awhile, for me at least, that would become uncomfortable.
Shock absorbers and springs on automobiles work on the same principle. Only the axles connected to the shocks and springs bounce around while the body of the car remains largely steady. Otherwise, it would be quite a rough ride for the passengers.
You know, this issue got me thinking: I believe the whole "Redbirds Are Good vs Redbirds Are Bad" debate hinges not on the actual cars, but what will perceptually be gained or lost by their retirement.
What I will miss about the Redbirds once they are retired is not the cars themselves (which are nothing more than tired iron), but the points that made those cars, to me, at least, worth going out of my way to ride, such as:
- The bench seats. Yes, the R-142s have them. Thank God for that. But that is the only redeeming quality of the R-142s to me. The 7 Train that I ride regularly won't get R-142s; it will get R-62As with their far inferior sculpted seats, which are literally a pain in the ass.
- The soothing color tone. Before they were painted red, they were either olive, stark white, or graffiti'd on the outside, with baby blue or loud orange and cream interiors. I hated these cars then. But when they painted them that deep red, and even used some of that paint for the inside, along with the familiar TA cream color, I wanted my home basically painted in the same manner. The metallic walls and doors of the R-62A are monochromatic and cold at best, and seriously pitted and discolored at worst. The R-142's loud white walls and black speckled floors remind me either of a hospital hallway, or really bad elevator. Not to mention those plastic synthesized voices. Dat ain't Nu Yawk.
- The Railfan Window. Not only for the obvious reason, but because while the rest of the car was 100 degrees, standing by the railfan window afforded some cool breezes. Also, you got a few extra square inches of room during rush hours, and the door handle was just perfect for grasping. No, of course it didn't give, otherwise I wouldn't be here right now.
- The swinging overhead straps. The argument that they hold only one person at a time is suspect. They are spaced closely enough together to give everyone who wants one fair shot at one. Yet, I see three or four people grabbing on the one strap closest to each door, while the rest of them are largely empty. The reason they are largely empty is because there are many other choices in the center of the car, such as at least one center pole, and two large-diameter side poles right up against the seats.
The Redbirds are the last cars to offer all of these amenities. And horror of horrors, the R-38s, R-40s, R-42s, and some R-32s -- car classes offering between two-and-a-half and three out of the four (and before GOH offered everything but red paint), are slowly being voted off the MTA's "island" to be replaced by yet more sterile, plain, and uncomfortable rolling stock that MAY be more mechanically sound than the Redbirds, but because of their added complexity, may just offer more advanced degrees of headache.
So -- Redbird Lovers -- SalaamAllah et al -- Is it the CARS themselves, or the cars' APPOINTMENTS that you will miss? My money is on the latter. Except for maybe Heypaul, who would probably want an R-36WF cab to accompany his R-9 cab.
I hope this effectively neutralizes the Redbird Argument, from both sides.
Now . . . how about that 9th Avenue Food Festival this weekend????? (Transit relevance: It passes under the PA bus terminal)
Shock absorbers and springs on automobiles work on the same principle. Only the axles connected to the shocks and springs bounce around while the body of the car remains largely steady. Otherwise, it would be quite a rough ride for the passengers.
I've never felt that effect. If that was truly the case, then why don't the cars hinge forward and backward, which is the direction of most of the car's force? Compared to forward/backaward movement, sideways movement is nothing.
The bench seats. Yes, the R-142s have them. Thank God for that. But that is the only redeeming quality of the R-142s to me. The 7 Train that I ride regularly won't get R-142s; it will get R-62As with their far inferior sculpted seats, which are literally a pain in the ass.
The bucket seats aren't a problem for me. I weigh 100 kg and am 185 cm tall. The only problem is when fat people with two empty seats between them encroach upon each of those two seats leaving a whole seat empty, but the divider is in the middle. Plus the R-62 seats are smaller. Notice that the benches are still designed for 8 people, but look at how many seats there are on each side in a car with narrow cabs. In case you never look, there are two extra seats, yet the doors aren't narrower and the car not longer.
But the R-142 seats are these stupid posturepedic models and are uncomfortable. Making Redbird through R-38 seats the winner (and those few R-62 bench trains).
- The soothing color tone. Before they were painted red, they were either olive, stark white, or graffiti'd on the outside, with baby blue or loud orange and cream interiors. I hated these cars then. But when they painted them that deep red, and even used some of that paint for the inside, along with the familiar TA cream color, I wanted my home basically painted in the same manner. The metallic walls and doors of the R-62A are monochromatic and cold at best, and seriously pitted and discolored at worst. The R-142's loud white walls and black speckled floors remind me either of a hospital hallway, or really bad elevator. Not to mention those plastic synthesized voices. Dat ain't Nu Yawk.
The beige walls of the Redbirds are horrible. If they painted them red, then it would be better, but beige is the most boring color. My favorite is the R-44/46 side. It might be the same color, but the woodgrain makes it homey and the seals of the City and State make it less bland.
My entire basement is colored black and white, and it isn't bad. If I were to decorate it, I wouldn't do it that way, but not because of the color, because I wouldn't use vinyl tile (ceramic forever) and plainly painted drywall either (drywall SUCKS). Such a color looks cleaner and brings contrast with the furniture (not a consideration on a train, I know).
The Railfan Window. Not only for the obvious reason, but because while the rest of the car was 100 degrees, standing by the railfan window afforded some cool breezes. Also, you got a few extra square inches of room during rush hours, and the door handle was just perfect for grasping.
The extra room is there even more so when there is no cab, which is the case in most R-142 cars (hence more passenger room).
And why would the rest of the car be 100F? If the air conditioning is broken, you can move to another car or sweat it out in a relatively empty car. R-142 air conditioners will be broken down less often.
No, of course it didn't give, otherwise I wouldn't be here right now.
You'd be in court suing the TA!
j/k
The cars should not hinge forward and backward; otherwise we would all be on one big amusement park ride, wouldn't we? Now if the trucks could be aligned on some sort of sliding track under the body of the car leaving the cars stationary while the only the trucks follow the movement of the bad trackage, then we might be onto something.
Then, however, curve clearances must be increased to allow for the "play" of the carbody as the trucks negotiate curves while the carbody plows ahead in a straight line. This, of course, will cost beaucoup money in widening the tunnels around curves, and while it will eliminate all the small rocks and sways, it will cause huge jolts at the beginning of all legitimate needs for the car to change direction (curves). Until then, the only relief to people 5' 8" tall with short arms is swinging straps.
With regard to the R-62 seats, I find it generally uncomfortable to sit in a seat with my thighs pinned together just because the seat is narrow. If I allow myself a bit of space, I am pressing thighs with my neighbors to each side. Unless I am intimate with my seat mates, or want to be intimate with my seat mates and the feeling is mutual, this is generally an undesirable position to be in. Additionally I have broad shoulders. Try sitting with your shoulders shrugged AND your thighs pinned together, and you have the beginning of a very bad day.
Give me the bench seat where I have control of sitting with my thighs and shoulders such that these forced postures don't happen, and I am a happy boy.
As for the beige, considering the alternatives of aluminum or stainless steel, the beige is the perfect complement to the red. Yes, the wood paneling and state and city logos on the 44/46 are attractive, but when it comes down to it, those state and city logos are in alternating shades of cream anyway. The wood in this case provides a break to the monotony, and only the doors are stainless steel, creating an acceptable balance.
As for the superiority of the railfan window over the center of the car: Whether the A/C is on or not, at rush hour capacity, all those bodies inside the car are throwing off thousands of BTUs of heat; not to mention gallons of sweat that becomes humidity inside the car. Whether the A/C can handle that load is moot, because not only don't I find any appreciable circulation of air inside a packed subway car, the doors open too damn much because of all the stations the train has to serve, letting whatever cold air that accumulates in the car off every thousand feet.
In the winter, if you are far away from the doors (and remember, only one set opens at a time, and not evenly over the route), the heat of the pax is still there, and so is the radiator heat. Nota bene: You dress to fit the climate OUTSIDE the car, so when you enter what could become an 80-or-more-degree subway car, and marinate yourself in it for an average of 20 minutes, you begin to perspire. Then, when it is your turn to detrain, you have the benefit of all that moisture freezing you further than you would have normally.
The railfan window thus provides heat transfer through very effective circulation, at least in that very small area. In the summer, the breezes might be warmer, but the increased air circulation keeps you relatively cool; and in the winter, any cold breezes are cut by the heat trying to escape to where the cold is.
Much ado about nothing? Maybe. But someone like I, who dearly loves his car, am very finely tuned to whatever extra comfort I can gain aboard a subway car when I do ride one. If these very small but additive advantages disappear, I would just as soon take my car, keep the A/C and stereo cranked, and shell out the bucks for gas and parking, and avoid all the damned hassles of the subway. The traffic isn't as bad as people think -- if they know their way(s) around it.
There are many MANY people to whom the decision between taking the car and taking the train/bus/ferry is a toss-up. If we as a group are really committed to the promotion of public transportation, it behooves us to take seriously these arguments. Imagine whole subway cars, if not the entire system, with unsculpted bench seats and ram-air railfan windows; red exteriors, and interiors of fake wood, stainless steel, swaying straps, and "wallpaper" of the state and city logos.
That's my perfect subway car. It doesn't take that much for a subway car to please me -- and this is coming from a car czar. Take that as the base, and then go right ahead and build whatever other technology you want into it and I wouldn't be any the wiser or more caring.
Read my Sat. 01:35:5X post 221279 in lieu of 221277 above. I changed the readability a bit.
The cars should not hinge forward and backward; otherwise we would all be on one big amusement park ride, wouldn't we? Now if the trucks could be aligned on some sort of sliding track under the body of the car leaving the cars stationary while the only the trucks follow the movement of the bad trackage, then we might be onto something.
Then, however, curve clearances must be increased to allow for the "play" of the carbody as the trucks negotiate curves while the carbody plows ahead in a straight line. This, of course, will cost beaucoup money in widening the tunnels around curves, and while it will eliminate all the small rocks and sways, it will cause huge jolts at the beginning of all legitimate needs for the car to change direction (curves). Until then, the only relief to people 5' 8" tall with short arms is swinging straps.
With regard to the R-62 seats, I find it generally uncomfortable to sit in a seat with my thighs pinned together just because the seat is narrow. If I allow myself a bit of space, I am pressing thighs with my neighbors to each side. Unless I am intimate with my seat mates, or want to be intimate with my seat mates and the feeling is mutual, this is generally an undesirable position to be in. Additionally I have broad shoulders. Try sitting with your shoulders shrugged AND your thighs pinned together, and you have the beginning of a very bad day.
Give me the bench seat where I have control of sitting with my thighs and shoulders such that these forced postures don't happen, and I am a happy boy.
As for the beige, considering the alternatives of monochrome aluminum or stainless steel, I have no problems with two-tone beige and red. The red cuts the "boringness" of the beige like a knife, making it more bearable. Yes, the wood paneling and state and city logos on the 44/46 are attractive, but when it comes down to it, those state and city logos are in alternating shades of beige anyway. The wood in this case provides the break to the monotony, and only the doors are stainless steel, creating an acceptable balance.
As for the superiority of the railfan window over the center of the car: Whether the A/C is on or not, at rush hour capacity, all those bodies inside the car are throwing off thousands of BTUs of heat; not to mention gallons of sweat that becomes humidity inside the car. Whether the A/C can handle that load is moot, because not only don't I find any appreciable circulation of air inside a packed subway car, the doors open too damn much because of all the stations the train has to serve, letting whatever cold air that accumulates in the car off every thousand feet.
In the winter, if you are far away from the doors (and remember, only one set opens at a time, and not evenly over the route), the heat of the pax is still there, and so is the radiator heat. Nota bene: You dress to fit the climate OUTSIDE the car, so when you enter what could become an 80-or-more-degree subway car, and marinate yourself in it for an average of 20 minutes, you begin to perspire. Then, when it is your turn to detrain, you have the benefit of all that moisture freezing you further than you would have normally.
The railfan window thus provides heat transfer through very effective circulation, at least in that very small area. In the summer, the breezes might be warmer, but the increased air circulation keeps you relatively cool; and in the winter, any cold breezes are cut by the heat trying to escape to where the cold is.
Much ado about nothing? Maybe. But someone like I, who dearly loves his car, am very finely tuned to whatever extra comfort I can gain aboard a subway car when I do ride one. If these very small but additive advantages disappear, I would just as soon take my car, keep the A/C and stereo cranked, and shell out the bucks for gas and parking, and avoid all the damned hassles of the subway. The traffic isn't as bad as people think -- if they know their way(s) around it.
There are many MANY people to whom the decision between taking the car and taking the train/bus/ferry is a toss-up. If we as a group are really committed to the promotion of public transportation, it behooves us to take seriously these arguments. Imagine whole subway cars, if not the entire system, with unsculpted bench seats and ram-air railfan windows; red exteriors, and interiors of fake wood, stainless steel, swaying straps, and "wallpaper" of the state and city logos.
That's my perfect subway car. It doesn't take that much for a subway car to please me -- and this is coming from a car czar. Take that as the base, and then go right ahead and build whatever other technology you want into it and I wouldn't be any the wiser or more caring.
Interior decoration issues aside, there is no damping in
the longitudinal direction (the direction of acceleration
and braking). That is because those accelerations are steady-state,
or at least long-term, as opposed to the accelerations in the
vertical and lateral directions, which are oscillations. You
can't get past the fact that as the train accelerates or brakes,
that creates a non-inertial reference frame in which a passenger
will feel a force.
The path in the longitudinal direction is unsprung and undamped:
wheel, roller bearing, pedestal, side frame, transom, truck
bolster, body bolster. The key to avoiding passenger discomfort
is limiting the so-called "jerk rate", i.e. the rate of change
of acceleration. All of the cars in the fleet are designed to
do this, but many do not perform because of wear and misadjustment.
The "new tech" trains, in theory, should be capable of producing
strong acceleration rates with a very low jerk rate, as they employ
closed-loop control. I say theory because to date, my experience
with the cars has been less than satisfactory, but before you say
it, even the worst-performing R142(A)s have better jerk and
acceleration performance than the average "redbird" SMEE.
Very nice post. Thank you.
I agree with you on the color scheme. Furthermore, the R142 lighting is too bright. I first reached this conclusion when I looked out the window and I couldn't identify the station I was entering since the lights inside were so much brighter than the lights outside. Even if nobody feels like acknowledging it, that's a major problem that will get people lost. Sure, the trains have station displays and announcements, but what happens when they malfunction, or a passenger doesn't hear the announcement and can't see the displays through the crowds? (Speaking of displays, the bright lighting also washes out the backlit parts of the strip maps. That's a problem since all the information is contained in the backlighting. On my first R142 ride, I thought the train was diverted off its regular course since there was a notice on the strip map claiming that was the case. Only later did I realize that that bit of text was supposed to be invisible since it wasn't backlit.)
As for the straps: I'm short. I can't hold onto the fixed horizontal bars for more than a few minutes without my arm tiring. The straps come down lower and absorb some of the shock. Pig: I don't hold on while standing so that I don't budge an inch; I hold on so I don't land on my face when the train accelerates, decelerates, or rounds a bend. That the strap offers a bit of leeway is no problem, since I don't mind swinging a bit, especially if doing so is more comfortable than standing perfectly still. I wouldn't even mind the style of strap found on some (or all?) of London's cars -- they flex forwards and backwards as well.
Brings back memories of tug-of-war when sharing straps with other passengers. Anyone else a casualty of strap wars?
avid
I decided to do a little research on Amtrak because since I am into railroading, I wouldn't mind running an Acela or a P42 for a career. Anyways I called Amtrak NYC personnel to discuss being an Engineer for them. I asked him how their schedule works. He tells me since I live in the NY area, if a Train where headed from boston to washington, I would probably run that train from NY to washington, allowing the other engineer to get off at NY. When I bring the Train to Washington, I layover down there for like 3 4 hours then take another one back to NY and another engineer takes it to boston from NY. Thats a pretty good job. but how does an Engineer see his/her family? like how many hours do they work in one day? also since I live in the NY area, that means I don't get to travel very far with a Train? that sux!!!
by the way does anyone know what benefits Amtrak Engineers get?
I don't know how it is now, but 25 years ago I was aquainted with the daughter of a Metroliner engineer. This was in the days of 100 miles = 1 day's pay. He worked 2 days a week running one round trip per day and made an excellent wage.
If you hadn't torn down the 3rd Ave EL would wouldn't need a 2nd Ave Subway so it's your own damn fault.
If you hadn't torn down the 3rd Ave EL would wouldn't need a 2nd Ave Subway so it's your own damn fault.
I didn't tear down the 3rd Ave El. And what's the connexion with Amtrak schedules?
Whoops, I replied to the wrong thread.
Well look at your slamtrak schedule, remember you can't be on duty for more than 12 hours. They told you you have a 3 to 4 hour layover at your terminal so it sounds to me like a LONG DAY.
You go on duty when you pick up your train at Sunnyside or if your lucky you get one at Penn that is turnning and save time.
BTW, I tore down the 3rd Avenue El personally (LOL).
Once you get into railroading other than urban and suburban service you pretty much give up your family. Be glad it's Amtrak...you're at least out and back the same day, with what you describe and with some seniortiy you should get a regular schedule.
In western freight service even with a regular crew it was like one big extra board. Always on call,once you're "rested"...off duty 8 hours. Spend 8-12 hours to bring a drag 240 miles or so, layover at the other end, then another one back. Might lay over 16 hours or more away from home and then turn on your rest at your home terminal. Could be the other way around too. I've never been sorry I did it for a living but you learn why some guys get to hate the job. Kid's got an event to attend you're gone..."sorry, we're short of men, you can't lay off", too many [not all] holidays you're gone; etc etc.
Not covering much RR just from NYC-DC? Such is life. Thinks of the truckers...how many see the country but hardly ever see home. Sad to say the RR is a high-risk for divorce job, trust me..I KNOW.
I don't mean to discourage you. Hope you get your job, you will like it beleive me. Just sharing experience of what life on rails can be.
GOOD LUCK>
I read today that the "gold copies" or final version of MSTS is being burned this week so the June 8th release date is probably the one to go with. It may even be official but this is MS here...
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
blockfront projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Preservation Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored facade
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Does anybody out there remember what trains used what tracks along 6 Av before the express tracks were opened in 1968? For instance, did F trains from Bway-Lafayette switch to the local at W4? Did D trains to the Bronx switch to the middle track at 42 or after 47-50? And going southbound, did the D run on the outside track starting at 42 St? My family doesn't seem to remember, and they've been using the 6 Ave since 1965....... Tony born in '69!!
You are right, the F north-bound F switched to the local track just north of W4. It did the same south-bound (local to express at W4). The D in both directions switched between 34 & 42. There was also a CC concourse local which terminated rush hours at 34 on the express tracks. Weekends, the F also terminated at 34. The express tunnel was opened in Nov. 1967, at the same time the Chystie St. connection was completed, except that the extension to 6Av-57 St and the now unused connection to the Williamsburg Bridge were completed July 1968.
Wait -- why didn't the F stick to the local track all the way down, as it does today?
Wait -- why didn't the F stick to the local track all the way down, as it does today?
The F terminated at Bway-Lafayette; the D went to Coney Island via the Culver. The reason for this arrangement was that the Culver platforms could not handle 11 car F trains.
You know, if the south terminals of the F and V were swapped (or, nearly equivalently, if the F and V swapped their Queens express stati), the F could again run 11-car trains. Why isn't this being done?
You know, if the south terminals of the F and V were swapped (or, nearly equivalently, if the F and V swapped their Queens express stati), the F could again run 11-car trains. Why isn't this being done?
Any relatively low cost solution that would increase passenger capacity by 10% would expose the joint NYCT-TWU public be damned attitude. Indeed, 660 ft trains and 34 tph were reinstituted on the Queens Blvd line, the capacity increase would be greater than the yet to be implemented 63rd St connector.
Here are some of the combined NYCT-TWU impediments to reinstituting such a policy. First, each 11-car train would require 2 conductors. That was the verdict of the arbitrator's decision that doomed such operation. Prior to that, most rush hour trains had 2 conductors and far fewer passengers had doors closed on them. Second, the NYCT has decided that the extra length of the original IND platforms could be put to more productive use than servicing passengers. They have converted many of these areas into storage closets suitable for burying skeletons. Third, in case you haven't noticed there is a severe car shortage for 60 foot singles.
The notion existing facilities should be used for the benefit of the paying passengers betrays a naivete about the MTA's mission. :-)
I thought all of the 'B division' singles were long gone .... ?
>>Any relatively low cost solution that would increase passenger capacity by 10% would expose the joint NYCT-TWU public be damned attitude. Indeed, 660 ft trains and 34 tph were reinstituted on the Queens Blvd line, the capacity increase would be greater than the yet to be implemented 63rd St connector.<<
Yeah, the same attitude I'm sure that you have about you job. Just because the TWU looks out for employees and not always the riding public doesn't mean that's bad. That's what unions are for.
>>the NYCT has decided that the extra length of the original IND platforms could be put to more productive use than servicing passengers. They have converted many of these areas into storage closets suitable for burying skeletons.<<
You've got a real cynical view of the TA evidently. Those 'closets' are very important for TA maintenence. I don't know about you Steve, but some of us like to have supplies on site for emergencies. We also like to have places to put things like electrical equipment, and you can't build one into the wall at an express station. And, if you think that they should just be put in a tunnel, then you obviously don't give a damn about the safety of the workers, just like the damn riding public. They could care less if: '...some lazy TA employee gets hit by a train.' Well, sorry Steve. The TWU tries to see to it that workers don't get killed. They apologize if this annoys you.
>>The notion existing facilities should be used for the benefit of the paying passengers betrays a naivete about the MTA's mission. :-)<<
There are not many existing facilities that aren't being used by the public. In case you didn't notice, few platforms have been built to accept 11 car trains.
I can see that you don't look purely at facts. You merely bash the TA however you see fit.
What stations have platforms designed to accept 11-car trains? Personally, I would like to see 11-car trains on the E and F lines. Even if it means two conductors per train, maybe the TA ought to look into it if it will relieve overcrowding on both lines. Of course it would have to wait until the arrival of the next order of B-division cars (R160s, I think) a few years from now.
I believe every Manhattan IND station south of and including 53st, as well as Queens IND platforms are at least 660' long. If a station appears to not have been built to that spec (ie: 63rd drive, 67th ave) it is because the extra space has been filled in, or the extended platform was done PATH-style (the cheap way, widen the tunnel so people can exit there and slap some tile on). The telltale sign at those stops is that the catwalk is slightly wider for a bit, at the end is a pole where a "do not enter or cross tracks" door would go. Above the track in this area of "tunnel" is the same exact lighting arrangement as the old incandescents above the track along the platform, one bulb in alternating ceiling recesses (those 2 bulbs in one socket things may be there in some cases)
The Rockaway line platforms are longer as well, but that was done by the LIRR.
Then putting 11-car trains on the E and F lines should really be considered. If the elevated Culver line platforms need to be lengthened that shouldn't be too hard, because there would be no need to blast through rock or concrete. As for the underground Brooklyn IND stations, well that may be a little harder. But it needs to be considered.
Yeah, the same attitude I'm sure that you have about you job. Just because the TWU looks out for employees and not always the riding public doesn't mean that's bad.
That's what unions are for.
The unions are taking the path of least resistance by insisting that one or possibly two conductors are required for train operation, when almost every other system in the world doesn't require any.
They may not be protecting their members long term interests. Darwin taught us that species that adapted to changing environments survived and those that did not or could not became extinct. The best worker defence against automation is to provide more skill and initiative than a machine can economically provide. The TWU has gone along with dumbing down job functions. The simpler the task the easier it is to automate out of existence.
You've got a real cynical view of the TA evidently. Those 'closets' are very important for TA maintenence. I don't know about you Steve, but some of us like to have supplies on site for emergencies. We also like to have places to put things like electrical equipment, and you can't build one into the wall at an express station. And, if you
think that they should just be put in a tunnel, then you obviously don't give a damn about the safety of the workers, just like the damn riding public.
Let me suggest an alternative location for storing such "vital" maintenance supplies. Almost all stations were built with public conveniences. Practically all no longer function. The quality of TA maintenance for such facilities became a national scandal in 1959. The TA's response has been to close them. None of these rest rooms took up platform space.
In case you didn't notice, few platforms have been built to accept 11 car trains.
All the IND platforms built by NYC before 1955 were designed to accept 660 foot long trains.
There is a bunch of mezzanine space still vacant. A lot of that has been re-used for other purposes other then mezzing. A lot of the stolen space has gone to garbage, I repeat GARBAGE storage. Did it have to be the full width of the platform? Couldn't the storage areas have been longer and narrower? Naw, just screw the rider!
avid
>>They may not be protecting their members long term interests. Darwin taught us that species that adapted to changing environments survived and those that did not or could not became extinct. The best worker defence against automation is to provide more skill and initiative than a machine can economically provide. The TWU has gone along with dumbing down job functions. The simpler the task the easier it is to automate out of existence.<<
Sure, you can say this. But, getting rid of conductors will cut jobs in the TA enormously. You know this. Those technician jobs you mention will hardly fill the void.
>>Let me suggest an alternative location for storing such "vital" maintenance supplies. Almost all stations were built with public conveniences. Practically all no longer function. The quality of TA maintenance for such facilities became a national scandal in 1959. The TA's response has been to close them. None of these rest rooms took up platform space.<<
The rest rooms have already been put to use: half of them remain bathrooms, and the other half are other facilities: lunch 'rooms' for employees and other stuff (I don't know what stuff is in there)
>>All the IND platforms built by NYC before 1955 were designed to accept 660 foot long trains.<<
Is this a fact? Because it seems that a lot of people here doubt that. I'm one of them. ALL of them?!? Because a lot of them lack the cinder block rooms that you mention.
Woah. Nobody's suggesting getting rid of conductors. The Queens IND express claims to be operating at track capacity and it is still overcrowded. If 60 feet of extra car space can be tacked onto each existing train, that's a 10% boost in capacity right there.
Woah. Nobody's suggesting getting rid of conductors.
I am.
Count me in too!
Arti
>>All the IND platforms built by NYC before 1955 were designed to accept 660 foot long trains.<<
Is this a fact? Because it seems that a lot of people here doubt that. I'm one of them. ALL of them?!? Because a lot of them lack the cinder block rooms that you mention.
Why not check this reference out for yourself. The difference between the chain measurements at the front and rear of each station platform shows that the original IND platforms handled 660 foot trains.
>>...The TWU has gone along with dumbing down job functions. The simpler the task the easier it is to automate out of existence.<<
Sure, you can say this. But, getting rid of conductors will cut jobs in the TA enormously. You know this. Those technician jobs you mention will hardly fill the void.
The trick is to add more value to the existing job function not to look for the few crumbs that will remain after automation. Suppose conductors were required to have certain other skills that were not immediately job related - e.g. first aid, cpr, mechanical skills related to car repair, etc. Their job would not be one dimensional and far more difficult to automate out of existence.
The rest rooms have already been put to use: half of them remain bathrooms, and the other half are other facilities: lunch 'rooms' for employees and other stuff (I don't know what stuff is in there)
Do they remain bathrooms for public use?
I think the we are using different generic terms for the same thing. There is a lot of space in subway stations that is off limits to passengers. Its size and purpose are not documented. You prefer to call it "stuff"; my preference is "closet space suitable for burying skeletons."
The bathrooms you mention may in fact be for employees. NYCT is bound by OSHA regulations to have employee restrooms and also by NY State's OSHA a station is required to have a place for employees to eat their lunch rather than eat in the bathroom. Supervisor offices is another use of former public bathrooms.
regarding rooms at the end of the platforms- many have become electrical rooms with electrical panels relocated from platform rear walls to those rooms. Some are also communications rooms with the PA equipment and telephone equipment for the AFC and PA-CIS networks. The rooms are also home to trash rooms as a better alternative to tall house-shaped receptacles on the platforms.
I am sure you would want decent facillities at your job or school. If you went to school and there was no bathroom I am sure you'd complain. We are told to go to another station when our lunch relief comes. Many employee facillities are atrocious--holes in floors and when you flush one fixture the waste water comes out the other one and runs on the floor. The health department would close a restaurant or business but we must use those facillities.Oh yes- many have no runnign water for hand washing either.
Give us a break- we deserve decent facillities too. We work at the station for 8 hours a day!
Couldn't the sinlges currently running on the #7 line become "Organ Donors" for an equal number of R/38s that would also receive new stainless roofs. Then joind to an existing married pair of R/32s?
A similair program for R/42s to be linked to a quad of R/44s or R/46s. We'd have our cake and maybe get to eat it too! I'd advocate removing the operators cab t provide additional seating as well.
Do the PATH P1 - P#s have any compatible singles to donate Organs if moe are needed? I'm not speaking about bodies, but components. We're trying for a cheap (low cost) fast fix.
avid
I would think the only hold up to 11 car service is the length of the stations platforms on the elevated Culver line. The question is "Which is more difficult, extending elevated platforms or subway platforms? Which are more costly to do? Which can be done quicker?
HMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm, What do you think?
avid
Ah for the days of wooden platforms ... one trip to Home Depot and I'm sure we'd have it done. :)
The Libertyy ave portion of the "A" line had its platforms extended to accomadate the fullness of the "A" trains . Some platforms look long enough to take an 11 car train.
avid
Save yourself the trip - they deliver :)
--Mark
Wowsers ... up here, they expect you to bring your own entourage of SUV's and peecups ... you guys have it MADE. Heh.
But the V is terminating in Manhattan. Put the 660-foot cars on the V.
During the 1960s, the CC was a rush-hour only local service from Bedford Park Blvd./Bronx to Hudson Terminal/Manhattan. The BB was a rush-hour only local service from 168th St./Manhattan to 34th St.-6th Ave./Manhattan. These 2 services replaced the AA, which ran at all times except rush hours as a local from 168th St./Manhattan to Hudson Terminal/Manhattan. (Hudson Terminal was essentially the stub-end tracks at what is now the Chambers St.-World Trade Center station.) The BB terminated on the express tracks at 34th St.-6th Ave.; the F terminated on these tracks except for the times that it was extended to either Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave. during the rush hours.
To complete the answer, the D came in CI bound on the outside track of 47-50. The two downtown bound tracks then flip-flopped, one over the other, so that at 42 St the D and BB were on the inside track, while the F was on the outside (see track map on this site). The D then switched to the outside between 42 and 34.
I believe the F only terminated at 34th St. at night. The F probably went to Bway Lafayette all other times.
F service ran to Bway-Lafayette except at night like after 8 or 9 PM and on weekends and holidays. Middays to Bway-Laff as well. in late l966 I remember we went to 2nd Ave. in stead as they were doing track work south of Bway-Laff., probably part of the Chrystie connection. I'd guess 2nd Ave. was a terminal at some other times but this is the only incidence I remember.
According to the 1959 service guide, 2nd Av was a terminal for the F from 6 am - Midnight.
As I've been proven wrong on a few things before I accept the correction. Apparently service changes were done every so often so my quote on the Bway-Lafayette terminal isn't ground in stone. Which year did the Pirates beat the Yankees in that good to the last drop of blood World Series? I was on an F that turned at Bway-Laff, was rush hour and I was yapping with the M/M about the series.
1960.
Bill Mazeroski was the hero of that Series, as his leadoff home run in the bottom of the ninth off Ralph Terry won it for the Bucs. He finally made it into the Hall of Fame this year. BTW, did you know Maz was involved in a staged triple play at Shea Stadium? It was in the original Odd Couple movie. They wanted Clemente to hit into the triple play, but he refused, so Maz wound up doing the honors. You can see a few familiar Mets - Bud Harrelson, Ed Kranepool, Jack Fisher, and Ken Boyer.
As always Big Ed is correct. I rode the F from Bwy-Lafy from Sep 60 to Feb 62. I worked at 770 Bwy for Chemical Bank Ny Trust and got the F at the turn and got a seat in the last car in the last cross seat facing the rear. At W 4th the train was almost standing room only. I was usually asleep after that till I awoke passing 75th Ave. Changed to the E at Union Tpk got off at Supthin Blvd.
The E & F went to 179th St with the F exp and the E local. The F would rock and roll through Supthin Blvd. But the fastest ride was west bound after Roosevelt ave. Slight down grade and curve to the left. No timers then and I don't recall a break application prior to the curve. But that was the early 60's with R series cars that ran the gamit from real low numbers up to the at least 1802 as IR.
The old standards would rock and roll on the Brighton Express
also.
F Also when to Church St. and the Bway-Lafy was probably a rush hour put in but worked for me as I got a seat.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
Big Ed usually is. The F train had terminals at 179th Street in Jamaica and Church Avenue in Brooklyn. I used to have all the terminals for the BMT and IND lines memorized when I lived in New York during the late 40's and early 50's. What I remember most is that of the six or seven IND lines, the GG and F were the only trains that came out of the tunnel---the GG for one stop at Smith & 9th Street, and the F there and 4th Avenue. Church Avenue was one stop from Ditmas and outdoors but that was the Culver Line and the F didn't go there until after I left New York in September of 1954.
Yes, sometimes I had to ride trains other than the Sea Beach, but unless it was the Brighton to Ebbets Field the whole experience was a bummer.
I presume you never took an A train up CPW. Pure excitement with the R-10s.
Good lord, you mean to say your memories of the NYC subway system are pre 1954? Boy, would you be shocked to ride the rails today.
I was thinking it was 1960 [that World Series]as another poster mentioned. Nothing like having a memory; now if I could only rmember what I went to the basement to get when I left two minutes ago!Part of getting on in years. You remember the years gone by wel and forget what you meant to do now.
You're right about the spread of car numbers of the Queens fleet of R1-9. They had 100-149 and the 300's. Then 400 thru 814 or 815 and from there none until about 1450 or so, I did forget that..from there thru to 1802. The Concourse-Heights fleet had the rest.
That curve you mention was just past 65 st city bound (south) after leaving Roosevelt was restricted to 35 MPH or so. I used to take it somewhere near legal and can't remember braking either, I must have coasted..it was just off a downgrade. I rode with a guy named Mitchell once who took it at full power, must have been doing 55. It was fun but you'd get pinned against the wall!
When I get up in the morning and look in the mirror and see the monster. Always the monster has more grey hair. Grey hair is the product of dead brain cells. But why are all my short term brain cells dying. The long term cells are still working and your reply reinforcing the fact that I remembered the R 1-9 car numbers our of the Jam yard. I remember my days in Nam and the most hazardours missions i flew but can't remember yesterday. My wife reminds me to look at my drivers licience to remember who I am.
Yes like another thread hit on I too remember the subway prior to 54. Heck I rode the last trolley on the jam line from 165th St to Woodhaven Blvd and a Bus back to Queens Blvd. My mom and dad were very understanding. First excursion on the LIRR was behind No 35 in 55 wearing a white shirt and tie after early church. Last time for white shirt mother had to burn.
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
As I've been proven wrong on a few things before I accept the correction. Apparently service changes were done every so often so my quote on the Bway-Lafayette terminal isn't ground in stone. Which year did the Pirates beat the Yankees in that good to the last drop of blood World Series? I was on an F that turned at Bway-Laff, was rush hour and I was yapping with the M/M about the series. l960???
There was a story tonight on 60 Minutes 2 about the delapidated conditions on the nation's rails. This is seriously disturbing.
Many railways owned by freight companies have neglected safety in the name of profit. Many deadly and dangerous derailments have occurred because of this. The neglect of Amtrak's ROW is just a small portion of the problem. Personally I think all railways should be publicly owned. Once profit becomes part of any major infrastructure, trouble soon arises.
The second report was on channel 5. The union for the NYCT subway track workers claims that many tracks aren't be inspected in a timely order and there are dangerous. One worker went on camera saying the worst lines are the number 6 and 7 lines. He noted the #7 near Times Square is in bad shape.
I do agree that the 7 is in bad shape. The tunnel lighting and exits are quite poor. The track condition does not appear to be good. Especially that nasty lurch in the Steinway tubes on the E/B track. Plus that smelly oil leak. Lots of lurches on the elevated line as well.
The lurch in the eastbound tube has been there probably since the Steinway tunnels were opened for service. I think that there was somewhat of a misalignment when they built the tunnel since they didn't have the precision equipment that they have today so misalignments were probably somewhat common at that time. I think they can smooth out the lurch somewhat by making the curves in the track somewhat less pronounced so that you don't feel the lurch so much.
The oil lexk should be taken care of also. They should try to get right down to the bottom of it and find where the source of the leak is. I wouldn't be surprised that there is a leaky oil storage tank somewhere along the line and the oil is seeping into the tunnel.
As for the tracks I wouldn't be surprised that certain portions of the subway tracks are in bad enough condition to require replacement. There are some rather bumpy tracks in places.
The railroads allowing their tracks to go to pot are absolutely idiotic in doing this. They are not only endangering Amtrak riders when Amtrak's trains must use their tracks they are also endangering the general public since freight cars carrying hazardous materials use their tracks and if they are in poor condition that only increases the risk that a freight car carrying hazardous materials can derail and put lives at stake. The railroads are being pennywise but pound foolish when they try to save money by not maintaining their tracks properly and putting peoples lives at risk for no reason. It would be far cheaper in the long run for the railroads to keep their tracks in good repair in order to insure safe, reliable and swift service rather than to let the tracks go to pot requiring travel at reduced speeds to avoid a derailment which results in less safe, less reliable and slower service than necessary.
BMTJeff
Pure economics ... CSX makes 165 BILLION dollars in a year and the wimpy feds come along and clock them for a total of 3 MILLION in fines. Do the math ... they probably spend less on postage stamps. Now given a choice between $3 million in fines or a couple hundred million to actually spike down the rails, which would you choose?
The automakers and the courts settled out the price of a human being several decades ago and people just ain't worth the money. Screw the people - that's the reality. It ain't laissez-faire, it's roller derby.
[Now given a choice between $3 million in fines or a couple hundred million to actually spike down the rails, which would you choose?]
This is a problem that is easily solved ... take a page out of the airline industry ...
Goverment discovers a problem ... tells operator to fix it ... operator plays his fiddle to stall/delay/reduce/streatch out impact ... goverment shuts down operator ... operator learns that when the gov. says you gotta fit this, they better, or else.
In my 15 years in Pan Am maintenance/engineering/scheduling/purchasing they reacxted very quickly when a problem was discovered.
Another point ... if the gov. documents that a thing needs to be fixed & you don't ... you better not have a accident because of it. Because the lawers for the injured will put you out of business.
Mr t__:^)
Spending $200 million to keep the tracks in good order when you make $165 billion is a small investment in order to prevent a lawsuit because if Amtrak should have a derailment on your tracks and sues you for $500 million because many lives were lost in that derailment because if your poorly maintained tracks. Remember the adage an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
BMTJeff
Agreed that this is the way things used to be. However, unless there's OIL under those tracks, this administration will look the other way. $3 million? Not much encouragement to fix a problem as severe as what they found when just paying the fine is equivalent to about 0.05% of the cost of fixing the problem. And besides, the insurance costs are also cheaper and with "liability caps" the inducement to not fix it grows all the more. These are no longer the days when a B.R.T. could be put out of business due to a single wreck.
Apologies for my tone here, but this *IS* the boardroom mentality these days - this is also why GE thought it far cheaper to spend $3 million for television commercials instead of dredging the Hudson. And funny, same amount of cash too ...
It just goes to prove that some goverment regulations (that include some teeth) are required. The problem is that the Democrats will get carried away with this, e.g. OSHA. For a small company there rules & regulations are very much over kill. Or take Nursing homes (my wife works in one). The original idea was good & long over do, but now they'll fine you $1,000 for one cockaroach/fly on the wall.
Back to transit ... it would appear that there is not enough legislation to get the RxRs attention.
Mr t__:^)
Dunno if you saw the piece on 60 Minutes, but FRA has even admitted to being way out of line lenient ... the one shot that really spoke for the piece was a rail shot where every spike that DID exist was at least four inches out of the plates ... every damned one. How the steel stayed in place at all can only be explained by angels under the trucks ... and it got worse ... they showed broken and dropped rails and a raft of other very serious problems including bowed rails ...
When Conrail maintained the track through here, it was nice, it was straight, it was solid. Now that it's CSX, they're stealing old rotted out spikes from the abandoned tracks nearby and driving them into splinters on the mainline. Staring down the iron now, you can see weaves and wobbles to it that were never there in the days of Conrail. And we're good for 10-15 TPH here on each track, up from 8 in the Conrail days. If what I'm seeing here is comparable to what's going on elsewhere in CSX territory, I'm upping my insurance. :)
And granted, there's overkill in other areas ... there's a small railroad operator out in the Western part of the state who inherited the Delaware and Lackawanna and a number of other smaller railroads. He's got gandies out there. I don't think FRA is going to toast HIS chestnuts on an open fire ... but BN, CSX and NS are apparently very much in need of a good old NYC slap job ... kneecaps at least.
How can CSX get away with keeping the tracks in such bad condition as you're describing in your post. It seems like that there is an accident waiting to happen. Since the fines are nothing in comparison to their profits there is no incentive to fix the tracks. It seems like CSX doesn't give a damn about the condition of the track. Not until a bad accident happens.
BMTJeff
It's not just CSX ... BNSF, UP, NS, you name it ... the shots in the 60 Minutes piece were BNSF and UP track ... the one flaming wreck shown was one of CSX's ... the problem is epidemic. I can only repeat the grousing I hear from our own local boys but it's reality across the country. Maybe Shrub will change things. :)
Good joke man! The only reason Union Pacific got hit the way they did by the FRA over the SoPac debacle was the corporations doing the shipping were up in arms about their inventories being stuck at the Port of Houston or out in the Sonoran Desert for days at a time because the tracks were so crappy and the service was so screwed up.
Odds are if Amtrak doesn't run a rail passenger line over it, the quality of maintenance on a line is going to be sub-par. The railroads can afford mangled boxcars and maybe an evacuation or two of nearby homes, but a lot of dead Amtrak passengers like on the CSX rail bridge collapse down in Alabama a few years ago is bad for the liability insurance rates and the PR image.
Yep, and Amtrak is ANOTHER piece of this puzzle ... the freights want AMTRAK DEAD ... especially when they have to let them scoot by on their own private rails ... once they get their wish and De Lay and the other Oil party brethren kill Amtrak, you just wait and see what happens to the remaining track maintenance THEN ... but VERY good point. And CSX's insurance carrier paid off as expected - didn't cost CSX a thin penny ... still no incentive for them to do maintenance.
If Amtrak built a track parallel to a track used for freight only and Amtrak's track was only used for passenger railcars which track would be in better shape. If anything Amtrak's track would be in better shape. However if they want freight to get to its destination sooner they should keep the tracks used for freight in decent enough shpae so that the freight can get there faster. After all time is money.
BMTJeff
And that "TIME" part is the reason why they burn the slow orders and don't stop the lines for petty repairs. :)
The UPS trains highball, everything else can wait. :)
I see the point of not stopping the lines for minor repairs but they should stop them when major work is needed and the work that is required is safety related. Safety should come first.
BMTJeff
Agreed ... but that ain't the way to a happy quarterly report for the stockholders ... and yes, if a rail falls over, then it's worth it to them. Otherwise, they'll wait until the Sperry folks write up a report saying, "failed" ...
Would the railroads fix a cracked rail if it looks like it is in danger of breaking or a badly misaligned rail for that matter?
BMTJeff
In most cases, absolutely ... but they won't stop the railroad if spikes are loose, if ties are rotted and someone thinks there's enough railroad still there to use ... in all sincerity, railroads don't like their equipment running on the ground but it takes a lot of convincing that "just one more" won't make it through to the other end before you have to close the rail. Where you have TWO tracks, it's not as hard to shut down one of them - the real risk is on single track lines. They'd rather have proof that a loco really went on the ground before they'll close those.
Would a railroad send a maintence crew out if there were enough loose spikes to take care of?
BMTJeff
I would imagine they would ... question is what degree of arm waving that it'd take ... for you and everyone else, I am *NOT* with CSX, my railroad career ended in 1971 with the "transient authority" but I have a lot of friends and where I live, lots of them worked in Selkirk, Albany or Rensselaer, so I got a LOT of cab time with buddies when the rules weren't as insane as they've been lately and when I rode other rails, it was who I knew and dropping names that got me all the cab rides (and/or throttle time) I wanted ... things ain't so kopasetic these days ...
but hang out in the village bar with buddies, and they're only too willing to state the realities ... if a loco drops on the ground, it's important ... anything short of that, it can wait until Monday. Around these parts, Monday's a good day to close the rails for a few hours. If it is noticed on another day of the week, it might have to wait.
I wonder if they would send a crew out if they found a stretch of very bumpy or uneven track.
BMTJeff
" $3 million for television commercials instead of dredging the Hudson. And funny, same amount of cash too ..."
3 Million to dredge the Hudson..... You gotta be kidding.
3 Billion I'd believe, but not 3 Million.
Heck we gotta pay 1.5 million just to fix up our church!
Elias
The "3 million" figure was the cost of ADVERTISING by General Electric to pursuade US to tell the EPA not to make them spend the 3 BILLION on cleanups ... and with Governor Kristy Kreme running the EPA, chances are the ruse worked. To a corporation, that's a DAMNED good return on investment, mush like the failure to maintain ROW since it's cheaper to have trains explode downtown than to spend money on gandies ... known as "economic impact studies" ... it costs less to kill people than to protect them ...
Personally I think all railways should be publicly owned. Once profit becomes part of any major infrastructure, trouble soon arises.
On the contrary Karl. Self-interest is what drives the world. Because people are naturally selfish, NOTHING will be done if there is no remuneration for the parties involved.
Private ownership has historically proven itself more versatile in improving. Look at how long it takes for the MTA to fix an escalator. Look at how long it takes to fix an escalator in any privately owned building.
If you want to see the "triumph" of public ownership over private ownership, I'm sure there are a few houses available for rent in Pyongyang.
Just to make things a bit clearer, it's worth noting that what you guys are referring to as "private ownership" is more commonly referred to as "public ownership" and what you are referring to as "public ownership" is more commonly called state or government ownership.
Just about every major (and most minor) freight railroad in the U.S. is publicly owned.
CG
What? Public ownership=Ownership by the people. Hence the word PUBLIC.
I don't need to have pointed out any technicalities about railroad companies being shareholder owned corporations.
Then why is the railroad infrastructure so delapidated as compared to many other countries where railroads are government funded?
Also, are the highways funded by government? Why are they in such good condition compared to the railroads.
>Self-interest is what drives the world. Because people are naturally >selfish, NOTHING will be done if there is no remuneration for the >parties involved.
>Private ownership has historically proven itself more versatile in >improving. Look at how long it takes for the MTA to fix an >escalator. Look at how long it takes to fix an escalator in any >privately owned building.
>If you want to see the "triumph" of public ownership over private >ownership, I'm sure there are a few houses available for rent in >Pyongyang.
Then why is the railroad infrastructure so delapidated as compared to many other countries where railroads are government funded?
The railroads spent an entire century being a good condition. Then...
Also, are the highways funded by government? Why are they in such good condition compared to the railroads.
The government decided to subsidize highways without deregulating railroads.
We're dangerously close to falling into a debate about socialism vs. laize-faire but a few basics should be kept in mind:
1. Publicly owned corporations like railroads respond to what their shareholders want which is profit now and to hell with the future. (Once we've milked you for all we can get we can dump you on E-trade in about five seconds.)
2. Governments and their agencies respond (often reluctantly) to tax payers and when a taxpayer hits a pothole he or she generally goes berserk and threatens to join the other political party if there isn't a road crew out there within 24 hours.
3. In reality most of our infrastructure is a complex web of public, private and government entities. Sometimes it works pretty well, often it doesn't.
You've got two choices with infrastructure:
Either government-owned, corrupt, money-losing, and inefficient (but getting the job done safely),
or privately-owned, more efficient, but emphasizing profits over safety.
Seems to me keeping the rails safe and maintained is in the railroads' best interest. Why would a freight railroad want trains to derail? Having cars, whether freight or passenger, overturned on the ROW makes it very difficult to ship their customers' products. Shipping by rail is already notoriously slow and inaccurate. Why would any railroad want to exacerbate that by not doing everything it can to prevent clogging its shipping channels with an overturned train?
Furthermore, wouldn't upgrading the infrastructure for faster speeds allow their customers' goods to arrive to their destination quicker? I think most shippers would like this!
Which is the problem Union Pacific got itself into four years ago when it merged with Southern Pacific and decided it could manage both systems pretty much using only its own managment people.
That didn't work out very well, not only with derailments due to paying off the merger costs instead of preventive maintenance on the rails, signals and roadbed, but also with switching and connection problems. The government came in and smacked UP with a fine, but the free market was the bigger motivator for the railroad to clean up its act -- customers started deserting the line in droves, either for trucking companies, or paralell BNSF routes through the Midwest and Western states. Nothing like killing your business to get the shareholders mad and to actually get some action done (though any more mergers will veer rail transportation towards monopoly status in certain parts of the U.S., and that's another story entirely).
Which is why the BNSF/CPR merger fell through. After the UP/SP and Conrail split between NS & CSX caused so many problems, both BNSF and CPR officials new they would never be able to convince regulators that merging was a good idea. A monopoly, whether government sponsored or private, is still a monopoly, with all of the consumer-un-friendly attributes thereof. Or maybe BNSF and CPR took a closer look at the UP/SP and Conrail debacles and realized that they might lose too many shippers to trucks and rival rail companies while they sorted out the new company and would never be able to win them back...
Mega-mergers stink, and I speak as a conservative and quasi-Republican. Too much power is in the hands of too few businesses and big government. BN before it became BNSF was already too big as it was a monopoly IN ND and Montana, and across Washington.
Competition ,not monopoly, is valuable in free enterprise.
Mega-mergers stink, and I speak as a conservative and quasi-Republican...Competition, not monopoly, is valuable in free enterprise.
Speaking as a Democrat and quasi-liberal, I whole-heartedly agree!
The contents are INSURED in the event of a derail, and shutting down a main line to repair track that isn't completely broken shuts down the railroad ... for some railroads, the only time the rails get repaired is when they've got a sidewinder out at the wreck scene anyway.
The contents are INSURED in the event of a derail, and shutting down a main line to repair track that isn't completely broken shuts down the railroad ...
...And "a derail" doesn't shut down a main line?!! Huh?!
...for some railroads, the only time the rails get repaired is when they've got a sidewinder out at the wreck scene anyway.
I know you work for them, so I respect that this is the truth, but I gotta point out that, to a layman like me, this is twisted logic! I don't mean any offense to you or CSX, and of course my experience running a railroad is limited to HO scale under the Christmas tree, but c'mon! Haven't they heard, "An ounce of prevention..."?
It's the same reason your boss will only install security software after hackers have taken over your network.
Just so you know, I *don't* work for CSX, I live in a railroad town and back in the days of Gonerail, I used to get cab time whenever it struck my fancy ... but I live with the folks who work the Selkirk yards in a small village that used to have two mainlines through it (now just one, monopolies do that) ...
But the guys are grousing all the time about the stupidity of it all and CSX is a wee bit better of a railroad than the "horses's patoot of transportation" (those guys with the black locos with the "white horse on it") ... but yes, this is exactly how they think. The MOW guys that I know are constantly whining about bad rail and posting slow orders only to have them ignored ... fact is that since the insurance will pay for a wreck and downtime as a result, but WON'T pay for a downed mainline for "maintenance" the logic is they lose no money at all if they wait until there's a wreck. If they shut down the railroad to pound spikes or replace iron, then they have to eat the delays, costs and losses ...
Conservatives love to whine about those "welfare mothers" but "corporate mothers on corporate welfare" abusing far worse is okey-dokey by them. And we all pay ... but yeah, amazingly that's the game and the logic behind it ... now bow down and kiss your station agent's boots ... at least the TA fixes things BEFORE the wreck.
Just so you know, I *don't* work for CSX
Oops. Sorry. I thought by your handle...I've got a relative who distpatches in Schenectady for a portion of the mainline (I'm not sure exactly how this works). I remember him saying, "I handle the line until I hand them off to Selkirk..." I've always wanted to see if I could tour his office or something, but, like most rail employees, he has a very dim view of foamers, so I'm not gonna push it...
The MOW guys that I know are constantly whining about bad rail and posting slow orders only to have them ignored ... fact is that since the insurance will pay for a wreck and downtime as a result, but WON'T pay for a downed mainline for "maintenance" the logic is they lose no money at all if they wait until there's a wreck. If they shut down the railroad to pound spikes or replace iron, then they have to eat the delays, costs and losses ...
This is typical corporate philosophy. Shareholders generally want immediate return, or at least steady "growth." The Japanese method of planning for long-term health by taking "losses" up-front to better prepare for the future does not fly with western investors. (The fact that Japan's economy is in the crapper is not helping win anyone over either, but that has less to do with this management style and more to do with that nations' policy of closed-markets and incestuous corporate structure.)
Continual maintenance makes logical sense, but not financial sense.
Let's take a hypothetical: I'm a grain shipper in Iowa. I contract with BNSF to ship my grain. We get all the paperwork done, insurance is taken out, etc. There's a wreck, wherein a good percentage of my grain is lost. Insurance pays out and everyone is happy, right? Well, no. Next month, what happens? BNSF's insurance premiums rise, with the insurer citing lack of proper maintenance, among other things (insurers will always find new ways to jack up your premiums). I, the grain shipper, am wondering whether my next shipment of grain will make it to my customer if I use BNSF again. Not satisified, I begin to explore other shipping options, which don't include BNSF, and BNSF loses me as a customer. So BNSF shareholders, who used to be very happy with how my grain rolled across the plains practically nonstop on their mainline while I paid them a goodly sum, none of which their executives chose to apply to maintenance, are now unhappy with this new loss of income and the stock price drops.
Imagine this scenario playing out with not just one shipper. I suppose the railroads just play the odds and pray these incidents don't happen often enough to lose too many customers, or, more importantly, too many lives.
The insurance increase gets passed along (or "trickled down") as a "cost of doing business." It's STILL cheaper than doing the work. And since insurance is fully deductable without question, the cost is eventually passed on to the poor schmucks who earn minimum wage. And yes, chances are you'd ship by truck if it happened often enough. Until the price of fuel went up and it once again becamse cheaper to take your chances by rail ... but the insurance also covers YOUR losses as well ...
And your buddy in Schenectady hasn't lost any lately on the Selkirk handoff ... Gonerail was downright anal about maintaining the lines between the two yards ... it's CSX now, just a matter of time. And the tower ain't all that much to see unless you like to watch people staring at computer screens and yelling at each other on the phone. :)
And your buddy in Schenectady hasn't lost any lately on the Selkirk handoff ...
Since we're related by marriage, I think I probably would have heard if he did. I guess he started working for Conrail perhaps 2 decades ago or more (in Utica, as a matter of fact, till he got transferred to Albany). So far, it's been good for him. I've noticed over the years we've seen him more often at family functions because, I assume, his seniority has allowed him to have a better schedule.
Probably ... and Schenectady *is* a long long way from Jacksonville. Heh. At least when operations were in Philly, you'd see deputy junior wiglets every once in a while in these parts.
After the CSX takover, we/he was worried that he'd have to move to Jacksonville. That would have been tough. His wife (my aunt) and 3 kids would have had to move far away from her mom, their grandma. They like living in New York (state) too. Don't know how he avoided that transfer, but glad he did...for now...
The good news here is that the Bubbas came and visited shortly after the split, saw that "trailer park upstaters" were even more NUTS that they are down in circustown, and can OUTSWEAR the kids down in JAX and they decided largely that no good bible thumpers from Florida could outvote us upstaters. Bottom line, nobody from up here seemed to meet the criteria for movement to Bibletown. :)
We safe! Praise the frogs ...
After the CSX takover, we/he was worried that he'd have to move to Jacksonville. That would have been tough. His wife (my aunt) and 3 kids would have had to move far away from her mom, their grandma. They like living in New York (state) too. Don't know how he avoided that transfer, but glad he did...for now...
Family considerations can of course complicate or prevent any move, but in other respects relocation to Jacksonville would be terrific. It's a dynamic Sun Belt metropolis with a full-employment recession-proof economy. Wonderful place.
Not to knock Jacksonville, but I think my aunt and uncle may be a little biased towards New York State. Her grandfather, and my great-grandfather used to call it "God's Country." I can see how he felt that way. Just look at any painting by Thomas Cole or his colleagues in the "Hudson River School," or take a ride on Metro North's Hudson Line, or Amtrak's Empire service. It's not hard to see that despite the periodic blemishes of humankind, it's beautiful country. I still like visiting my grandma in the Mohawk Valley. There's nothing quite like a misty morning in the Adirondacks.
Of course, I'm speaking about the environment, not the economy, which is another consideration altogether.
You first say how private companies neglect safety for profit, then you go on with an example about the NYCT tracks not being inspected and are dangerous. Apparently, according to your post, niether private nor gov't owned operations are safe, but gov't owned is better because it's safe. Which one is it? You need to work on what examples to give, 'cuz these contradictions ain't cuttin' it.
Yeah I realized the contradiction thanks for pointing it out.
While the MTA may neglect some of it's railways, it has a much lower incident rate than privately owned, so it's still safer.
Just compare LIRR to Metro-North. Both are public agencies, but the LIRR has to contend with privately owned Penn station, tunnels,etc. Thus LIRR is more prone to delays and mishaps because of Amtrak's neglect, while MNRR enjoys plenty of capacity and tunnels and tracks to Grand Central in much better condition.
Just remember the article awhile back on how Amtrak's East River tunnels (also used by LIRR) have dangerous and inadequate emergency exits.
but the LIRR has to contend with privately owned Penn station, tunnels,etc.
Just remember the article awhile back on how Amtrak's East River tunnels (also used by LIRR) have dangerous and inadequate emergency exits.
Amtrak is privately owned?
It would have to be, because there is no way to justify socialism with the truth.
It seems to be that, in every 8-car train of R-68s, there is one car that produces a high-pitched "howling" or "wind-whistling" noise as the car is running. This car could be located anywhere in the consist, and there never seems to be more than one of these cars on any given train. It doesn't sound like every car on the train makes this noise, as I could hear several cars passing by before picking up this distinct and very un-railroad-like howl.
Are there any experimental motors or other running gear being used on these cars, or is it just due to some unintended abnormality?
This was discussed here a few months back. I believe it may have something to do with the motor armature bearings. Maybe they're tight or something. I don't think it is intended, just turn out like that. Train Dude may explain this.
Bill "Newkirk"
The whine seems to be a product of the overhaul process and where & how the traction motor was overhauled. I've even heard one that whines in pulses. Inspections have turned um nothing unusual and the cars have performed exceptionally well since overhaul and we've had no unusual truck problems.
One word ... "greasebag" ... (?)
Every car type SHOULD have it's own sounds. After all we want to keep challenging the Peanut Gallery at the ERA meetings to duplicate them.
Mr t__:^)
Its just that that Hippo is hungry, better move to another car.
Mr t__:^)
Also hear this sound in some R44 cars, but NOT the R46's.
TA meeting to vote on F, G, et. al. changes, originally scheduled for March and rescheduled for tomorrow, has been re-scheduled for next Thursday.
Daily News story
The problem with keeping the F in 53rd Street, as the MTA sees it, is that everyone will still pack on the express. It had hoped to "force" some people to take the local by running the V through 63rd Street. The plan would also make it difficult, if not impossible, to increase F service in Brooklyn, since the F would be maxed out by the congestion at the 53rd and 6th junction.
In the long run (at a cost of more millions, presumably diverted from service in Brooklyn), one option would be to expand the terminal capacity at WTC (another track?) and add a local/express switch on 8th Avenue just north of the 50th Street station.
That way, all 53rd Street trains -- on off the local and one off the express -- could run local to WTC. What is now the C train would run express south of 53rd Street and onto Brooklyn. This loses the switching at Canal, and the switching at 53rd and 6th.
All 6th Avenue service would run through the tunnel.
A Bronx man got his foot caught between a northbound No. 4 train and the platform at Union Square about 2:45 p.m yesterday, fell between two cars and was severely injured by the moving train, police said.
brief Daily News story
Damn, that guy was stupid. Watch, they'll install chains like at South Ferry.
Oh, it was Northbound?! How did that guy manage to do that? Okay, it wasn't stupidity but more of a freak accident.
Southbound there's no excuse, one must be a moron not to see the large gap there (which tends to disappear while the train moves, crunch!), plus, the fact that the recorded voice is constantly present.
West Windsor Township's master plan includes a proposal to alleviate traffic congestion on the rt 1 corridor by building a light rail line from Quaker Bridge Mall to Forrestal Village. "The light-rail plans are extremely tentative, and implementation -- if it occurs -- is likely years away".
The proposal has also been considered by Lawrence Township for inclusion in its master plan.
Trenton Times story
This may have trouble getting through. Many of the residents of West Windsor work in New York City or Philadelphia or Trenton. I guess a few work in the businesses along Route 1, but if there is any proposed tax increase to finance the line, the northeast-southwest-hour-long-commuters may shoot it down.
I have family in West Windsor. Their taxes are already stratospheric. They've built 2 or 3 new schools in the last 10-15 years, moved roads around, etc.
On the other hand, malls and "big-box" stores have sprung up (I'm certain there were some kinds of tax incentives). What little farmland was left in Mercer County has been gradually developed out of existence. (They've even begun to turn part of Mercer County Park, which had been leased by the county for farming, into a golf course!) This may indicate a population increase worthy of such measures to relieve traffic congestion.
If they do manage to build it, in my mind it would only make sense if they did indeed make it an extension of the Trenton-Camden Light Rail line to take advantage of connections to and within the state capital. I would even go so far as to suggest that they build it all the way to New Brunswick with a connection to NJT "heavy" rail there. But good luck figuring out that ROW. Perhaps the New Brunswick portion design could mimic the HBLR in Jersey City, with street-running through the town. Rutgers students could use it. Wouldn't that be something. New Jersey would become the trolley state!
Okay, I realize this line is on the table to mainly serve the businesses in West Windsor. I wonder how many people who work in those businesses and office parks actually live near Route 1. The light rail line would only work if it was built near where the people who work in those office parks live, and I bet they don't all collect in one place. And a light rail line on Route 1 would roughly parallel the NEC, so the idea of extending it to New Brunswick may be ridiculous.
...Perchance to dream...
Actually, I would have the line go further: connect with Princeton Junction Rail Station (perhaps conver the Dinky into light rail!) and after New Brunswick, go over the Raritan to the Rutgers Campuses in Piscataway. That would help the New Brunswick parking/transportation crunch immenselystudents regard parking violations as part of the cost of going to college as the roads are so congested the Rutgers buses cant cope.
I could also think of feeder routes along Scudders Mill/Plainsboro Roads (amongst others) to tap the large dormitory communities there. The side benefit here would be elimination of car traffic to the various rail stations and the NEC corridor commuters would also benefit, which might mitigate some of the NIMBY/Not My Taxes naysayers.
I live in hope
John.
Another sorely needed project in New Jersey that will cost billions more than if it was built 10-15 years ago. Any news on revival of the West Trenton rail line? I remember a proposal to bring back service on it and connect it up to the Raritan Valley line. Looks like central Jersey is going to have to pay big for not building the I-95 missing link and additional mass transit lines!
But they're going to finally complete I-95. A new interchange between the Penn Turnpike and I-95 is set to be built and I-95 will take over the I-276 connection from the new interchange to the Jersey Turnpike, completing the Main Street of the East Coast. Personally, I don't see why they couldn't have designated the whole Jersey Turnpike from the George Washington Bridge to the Delaware Memorial Bridge as I-95 (just like the whole Mass Pike from Boston to the New York line is I-90). Does I-95 really need to go through Philadelphia and southeast Pennsylvania?
That is not completing I-95 as originally conceived. It was supposed to take over US206 Princeton - Bedminster, past there, I don't know.
For the first time in over 40 years, the south side Manhattan Bridge pedestrian walkway will be open to foot traffic May 16 at noon, from what I hear...
www.forgotten-ny.com
... and what a perch that will be when the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop occurs! Stock up on film now!
--Mark
Though the opening ceremony was today at 1pm, you can only go as far as the Manhattan anchorage from the Bowery. It won't be fully open all the way to Brooklyn until the end of June, though signs have been posted already on the Bowery pointing to "Walkway to Brooklyn" and Jay Street to "Walkway to Manhattan".
(Though the opening ceremony was today at 1pm, you can only go as far as the Manhattan anchorage from the Bowery. It won't be fully open all the way to Brooklyn until the end of June, though signs have been posted already on the Bowery pointing to "Walkway to Brooklyn" and Jay
Street to "Walkway to Manhattan".)
If that's the case, I think a Subtalk hike is in order! When someone gets an official date, post it.
Let's go over when the W is running and the trains are at arms length. If you want, I can wear my official TA helmet, vest, flashlight, and track shoes.
The gates separating the tracks from the walkway are still open, the MTA still needs to use much of the walkway for equipment storage and whatnot for the track work. That is probably why the whole thing isn't open.
Today I rode over the South side on the QM-11, tailing a QM-24W. I guess the Willy B work caused a few express bus reroutes.
Also, all of the high safety fencing isn't up yet, especially toward the Brooklyn side.
But now what are they going to do with it only open halfway? That's a dead end, and an invitation for trouble makers.
I hope that some kind of safety barricade is in place to prevent some nut from making mischief.
Having only read your post and none of the others in the thread, I ventured out to the Brooklyn end of the bridge with a visitor from Atlanta. We were a bit disappointed to find the staircase at Sands and Jay thoroughly barricaded. (We proceeded to walk the Brooklyn Bridge instead, and that's when the brief but heavy downpour hit.)
Next Monday, May 21st is the date for our repeat of a tour of the SIRT. We'll go end to end & back again.
===================================================================
Meet at SI Ferry to catch 5:30 boat to SI.
Lou from Brooklyn (and formally from SI) was seeking interest from his core group about taking a look at SI ball park at St. George instead of the brunch stop. On another recent trip (with Sea Beach Fred) a group of saw the progress at the CI ball park.
Alternate meeting site ... I'll be at Main Street on the #7 (the extreme East end at the token booth) at 4 PM & be happy to do a run by tour of Flushing line. We'll also get to enjoy a nice Redbird trip over this mostly elevated route.
I won't detail the whole trip, so clik back to post #30999 to see his write up.
Final item .... on the way back some of us will exit at Eltingville and catch one of those new MCI Cruisers that will bring us to lower Manhattan via the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge & Gowanus Expressway. Should be almost like taking a elevated train, except for the plusher seats ... and its just $3.00 ... such a deal.
Please either respond here or e-mail Lou or I so we have some idea of how many are coming ... or we'll leave without you !
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T, the message number was 21887 or here is the post:
I have had some personal email to do the SIR one more time so Monday May 21st I will host another trip down to Tottenville on the Staten Island Railway.
Here's the kicker, for those that want we can return from the wilds for Staten Island via the X1 express bus and ride an MCI Coach.
Here is the general plan, details to be modifed:
Two departure times, we meet in Eltingville for those that can make the eariler boat we are stopping for dinner.
5:30pm Boat
5:55pm Arrival St. George
6:02pm EXPRESS Train #94, Detrain at Eltingville
6:19pm
6:19pm to 6:50 Dinner at Burger King or Pizza Joint or Bagel Shop or whatever.
For those that can't make the 5:30pm boat you can try the
5:45 take the express train to Eltingville 2nd stop
or the 6:00pm boat take express train to Eltingville 2nd stop
or the 6:15 boat DO NOT GET OFF THE TRAIN
The people from the 5:30 boat and any meeting in Eltingville will reboard at Eltingville at 7:13pm (this is trian 106 from the 6:15 South Ferry Boat).
We will travel to Tottenville 7:29pm. There is the 7:37pm return trip to St. George making the 8:30pm boat with arrival at South Ferry 8:55pm. If people want to explore Tottenville the next train is 8:07 for the 9:00pm boat arriving at South Ferry at 9:25pm. But you won't be taking the MCI Bus, Did I say BUS??
AND FOR YOU BUS FANS, we will be getting off at Eltingville at 7:51pm for a ride back on the X1 express bus. They depart Richmond Ave Terminal at 8:00 arriving 6th Ave CPS at 9:22pm (you can get off anywhere along the run). The next bus is at 9pm, too long a wait if we miss the 7:37 train.
COST:
Ferry FREE,
St. George SIR $1.50 outbound or transfer within 2 hours.
SIR Eltingville and Tottenville FREE
X1 $3.00 (no unlimted passes) if you paid St. George we just miss teh 2 hour transfer limit.
For those returning to St. George instead of the X1 $1.50 SIR at St. George but free transfer in Manhattan.
Please feel free to comment or make suggestions. This is just off the top of my head.
Thanks.
I may make an appearance in Tottenville or Eltingville.
I've got some pictures of the new platform under the stadium. Ah, the wonders of being working press.
-Hank
Opps ... today isn't my day ... 30999 was the BusTalk number ...
Mr t__:-(
I've driven along Speer Blvd. several times during the past week where the new spur will pass beneath and have observed activity all along the ROW. At that point, it's directly adjacent to exisiting BNSF tracks as it passes the Pepsi Center. Nothing resembling a finished product yet, but crews are working. I'll have to hop a train downtown and see if anything is going on where it will branch off the existing line.
The new spur is slated to open next spring. Meanwhile, they're going to start tearing up I-25 next month as part of the "Lanes & Trains" project which is expected to take 5 to 7 years to complete.
These are the following Queens Blvd service changes that I would make.
E Line-No changes
F Line-between 179th Street and Coney Island via 53rd Street except midnight hours. Alternate trains to Kings Highway rush hours with Coney Island trains operating express between Church Ave and Kings Highway. All trains express between 179th Street and Contimental Ave weekdays 6AM to 8PM. Midnight hours from Coney Island to 21st Street/Queensbridge only via 63rd Street
G Line- No changes
R Line-restore 24 hour a day service and extend route from Continental Ave to 179th Street weekdays when F runs express between 179th/Continental and midnight hours. via 60th Street and Broadway Local.
V Line-between Continental Ave and 2nd Ave via 63rd Street/6th Ave daily except midnight hours.
Thank You
The only differences of opinion I have is that I aggree with the MTA in running the F through 63rd instead of 53rd. The whole point is seperating the E and F sooner, essentially letting the F "escape" from Queens Blvd troubles a few miles north of where it does today. The V will be a less-served line, so running it with the E down 53rd seems to make more sense.
If there is enough rolling stock to do it, I'd have both the V and R running to 179th.
:-) Andrew
Sounds decent on paper, but you would have to wonder if the Rare would get more rare. Also can Continental Ave be able to handle the local turnaround with a local coming from Jamaica? How long would a local R from Jamaica sit before the station while a G/V get started?
=)
Where do you get the money to make the R 24 hours??
Eliminate the CNG cars being used by supervisors except for emergencies. Let them use the same Surdface and Rapid transit system.
Eliminate the CNG cars being used by supervisors except for emergencies. Let them use the same Surface and Rapid transit system.
,i.can Continental Ave be able to handle the local turnaround with a local coming from Jamaica? How long would a local R from Jamaica sit before the station while a G/V get started?
Is that really an issue at Continental? I thought that local trains terminating there don't have to linger in the station any longer than it takes to pick up and drop off customers, since it can head into the tracks leading to the yard to turn arround.
:-) Andrew
Good plan--even better:
To give the entire line local/express service and alleviate crowding at Jamaica, run the V to Jamaica Ctr. Then finish the unused tracks and station at Roosevelt/Jackson Hgts and terminate the G there. G trains running to/from Jamaica Yard can run local on the QB to 71st or from 71st.
And do something about the timers on the QB express between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza--they ruin the run.
Dan
That is highly unlikely, to finish that unused station at Jackson Heights. I bet if more people were aware of that (Unused/Uncompleted)station then they people may consider it. And run the 'V' to Jamaica Center...NO WAY!!! Its bad enough with 'E' trains backed up during rush hours, and I dont think adding more trains to that particular section of the line would help. Ever see what happens when just ONE train gets stuch in that "DEAD END" we call 'Jamaica Center/ Parsons Blvd'. Oh yeah there is some space for 'Out Of Service' trains, but if one train gets into an Emergency Situation just slightly before Sutphin Blvd. You will have MANY agitated passengers.
What should be done (Although not likely because of lots of $$$ needed) is make 'Woodhaven Blvd' an express stop (Provisions are already in place to accomodate that). They should make a 'High Speed Line' for the subway especially in that part of the system. And make it only serve MAJOR MAJOR stops like 71st contenental. Like I mentioned before its highly unlikely but cool to think about :)
The problem with having a QB super-express is that EVERY STOP is a major stop. ESPECIALLY the express stations. Roosevelt is packed every morning without fail, as is Queens Plaza. The local stations are not as bad, but Northern Blvd. can be very full, especially if there are slight delays.
Dan
Your advocacy for The Woodhaven Station to be an express stop is right on the bullseye! Come the Manny B flip, Roosevelt will see a lot more use! Thats a real Narrow ass platform! It would have been wiser for Woodhaven to have been in place to allow Local and express riders to change trains earlier. 20/20 hindsight will show that the change of Woodhave to an express stop should have been concurret with the 63rd St connector work.
Beware of the crowded platforms at Roosevelt Ave!
avid
DEAR GOD NOOOO!!!
The platforms at Roosevelt CAN'T GET ANY MORE CROWDED! It's going to be 59th/Lex on the BMT Broadway all over again...if there are delays, I have seriously feared for my life while waiting in that station due to the incredible crowding.
Dan
Land sakes alive! Yessssssssssssss!
Its true. Sometimes it seems as if Queens Plaza platform is twice as wide as the Roosevelt platform.
Picture your toes protruding over the platform edge, praying nobody behind you sneezes, hurtling down to the greasy Durcels in the trench of doom.
avid
Express trains usually pass Woodhaven at a nice clip.
I took a look at the bellmouth on the Jamaica bound side. It appears to go to a wall! I Know the west bound ramp is in place. It has been reported by our resident archaeologists, the diamond on the unused section is read to receive track. But I just don't remember anyone saying the eastbound bellmouth is cut completely through.
Can someone attest to this or refute it.
avid
I have a map here that outlines my changes.
Here are the changes I propose:
E - Local Jamaica CTR to 71/Continental, express 71/Continental to 21st Queensbridge, runs via 6th to W4, then local to WTC. Why? No 6th ave - lower Manhattan lines under current situation.
F - Express 179st to Queens Plaza, via 53rd and 8th ave local to W4, then gets back to the 6th ave lines, runs to Jay, express to Church, local to KH or CI (possibly reverse-peak express to save headway time). Why? No 8th ave - South Brooklyn lines under current situation.
G - same as now, except extended to Church (can't turn at 4th ave if express tracks are used!).
R - no change at all
V - 179 to Queens Plaza, local. 53rd then 6th ave local, local all the way to Church ave.
This methood
You don't have the (G) going to Continental??
When I made the map (a few months ago) I was undecided, I was also too lazy to draw in the line. I believe they should try it, see what happens, if it fails then forget it.
I would love to see a revised map showing the G to Forst Hills.
hinthint
Ugh, time to break out the Photoshop zip disk... Am I the only person who installs most of my programs onto removable media?
Yes. The rest of us prefer using 60 GB hard drives. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hehe, my crap still fits onto a 4 GB drive.
Arti
Oh, if you use that, you might as well have the new Power Mac 4, which not only has that big a hard drive, but also can come with a combination CD/DVD Recorder.
Well, I've got a two year old G3 350 with its original 6 GB drive, plus I've added a nominal 60 GB drive to store PhotoShop files. The blocking is huge since I'm still running OS 8.5, but for PhotoShop files it's not an issue since they're so large.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I'm still running OS 8.5]
I seriously recommend to update to 8.6, much more stable, and it's a free download.
Arti
Actually, I've had trouble with PhotoShop and 8.6... I had installed it and ended up backing it out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What version of Photoshop did you have, was the problem in the menus?
Arti
4.0 - at this point I don't recall the exact scenario, but it triggered a lock up of the computer and required me to do a force reboot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a 75 GB drive :)~
Hmmmm....swtiching the E and F in Manhattan. I think you may have something there considering how much track switching goes on just after West 4th. Didn't the IND used to switch the E and F after West 4th when it first went into service?
Rehashing the same old stuff all over again!
If and when the Manhattan Bridge is available for both 6th Ave and Broadway these are tyhe changes i would make.
B Line-Coney Island to 145th St. Extend to Bedford Park rush hours.
via 6th Ave Express daily except midnight hours when operates Coney Island to 36th St/4th Ave. Stops at DeKalb Ave except rush hours.
D Line-As current D Line operation
N Line-Between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd via Broadway Express.
Skips De Kalb Ave rush hours
Q Line-Between Brighton Beach and 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton/Broadway Express weekdays 6AM to 10PM
R Line-Between 95th St and Continental Ave at all times via Local. Extend to 179th St weekdays and midnight hours
W Line-Between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street via Broadway Local
weekdays 6 AM to 8 PM
Thank You
Plus "M" (or "J" to Brooklyn ) via Montague Tunnel.
If we ever see those days again, then the West End service (B) should also bypass DeKalb. I'd like to see 12 B tph, and the M as a local from 9th Avenue.
You have 12 TPH for the B during rush hours. Frequency is 6-8 minutes.
You do realize that your plan has the B, D, N, and Q all using the same track at DeKalb during the non-rush. It is also a very hairy situation to attempt to get a train from the Fourth ave express tracks to the bridge track, and vice verca. The train first has to switch onto the tunnel/4th ave local track, then to the express track. This is worse than the current situation of having the N run via tunnel and switch express at Pacific. That is why the B always gets the Bypass, and during the rush the N got it too (look at the 1990 map). With both sides open this would be the ideal:
W - Same as you said, except peak direction express in Queens. Or reverse peak express if peak ridership for those four local stops is greater than that of the two express.
R - same as now, except 4th ave peak direction express on local (stopping at 9th, 46th, 53rd) 5PM-6PM, 7:45AM-9AM. Why? So that SI people have a faster route other than the ferry (S79 or S53 to R) without those useless stops in the way (M can get 'em for that time). Bay ridge riders can also no longer claim to get the short end of the stick every time there is a service change. R will run to 57/7 nights to get the lower Manhattan stops.
Q - same as you said
N - Bridge/B'wy exp/4th ave exp all times except evenings and nights, skips DeKalb during rush, via bridge / B'wy local/4th ave local evenings and nights.
NX - sunny summer weekends 8AM - 8PM run NX via Sea Beach express through to Ocean Parkway or Brighton Beach. Actually market this service, with an exaggerated time, people would be enticed to take the train. 57/7th origin, express throughout (incl. DeKalb bypass). Since only one Sea Beach express track, trains going the opposite direction of general travel use Brigton express and obviously stop at DeKalb(8AM - 2PM to Manhattan, 2PM - 8PM to CI).
M - runs to South Brooklyn middays as well, if only to 9th ave. No excuse on tunnel capacity, the only occupant will be the R.
D - same, except Bronx express runs all day peak direction.
B - same as now, except runs to Bedford Park during middays as well.
Now THAT'S a great plan!!!
I would add:
(B) Peak direction express on the West End, to Manhattan AM, away from Manhattan PM.
Find a single letter for the "NX".
Find a way to utilize the center track on West End, peak direction. Perhaps run the "M" to Bay Pkway.
wayne
Put slants back on the (B) for peak direction express on the West End.
That would make at least two SubTalkers grin from ear to ear :)
You do realize that you have the W express to the N in Qns. and then the N exp to the W in Manh. Have the N make express stops.
That whole R plan sucks. First off, you have the R switching onto the express tracks with the B&N trains being held up. Then, you shortchange all the people at the local stops, giving them the M. The M!! you force all broadway passengers to transfer. That plan is unnecessary. The R should remain the local. Keep in mind that more local riders get on the R then on the M. Many more. Don't see why us brooklyn riders should suffer for the tiny fraction of riders this new express service will draw.
The R is empty on middays. So is the M. To run both to bklyn would be a big waste.
Your NX service is uncalled for. There aren't enough people on the Sea Beach to have this service.
All day peak direction service on the Concourse line is a waste of money. All of these plans forget to take money into account. (Plus that NX plan has some serious passenger confusion).
Are you blind? Read my post again and then tell me about the R. Fine, I doubt you'll exert the effort so I'll tell you: Express on the LOCAL. Stopping at 9th ave, 45th, 53rd. Do you think those three stops being skipped really warrant that direct a line? If people want lower Manhattan, the M is almost as good. If they want upper manhattan, most people who take the R get off and take a bridge line anyway! Why have the Staten Island and Bay Ridge riders suffer through such a long ride? Anyway, currently if an M comes and they want the Broadway line they go to Pacific anyway, they know there's a chance they'll get an N there before the next R.
As for the "Uncalled for" NX, ridership on the Sea Beach is irrelevent since the express tracks don't make ONE SINGLE STOP on the Sea Beach! It's to serve primarily Coney Island riders, right now anyone wishing to go there has a choice of four local lines (and we wonder why CI's popularity has fallen!) and ridership is spread out across such. Now, the obvious choice will be one express line! The number of people going for a day trip to Coney Island on summer weekends is enough to warrant such a service, if only every 15 minutes. If CI is to be revived, we need to improve the way there. I have seen tourists going there on summer weekends from Manhattan, the long ride visibly annoys them.
The M to Brooklyn has one other purpose on my plan: Court and Lawrence st can't be served by the R alone!
N trains bypass lower Manhattan, making it less useful for Astoria riders than the W. Therefore, the W should be the express.
[number of people going for a day trip to Coney Island on summer weekends is enough to warrant such a service, if only every 15 minutes]
Your proposed headways make this service a loser. Even all local will get you to CI faster than that.
Arti
Weekends the individual CI lines run about every 10 minutes. An extra 5 minutes with the promise of being able to skip 16 of the Ns Brooklyn stops wouldn't make up for that?
HMmmmm.... Except for the W (and the B instead of the T) it looks like it was back in the '60s.
I guess you cant go wrong with that, especialy if you restore those 10 cent pop manchines.
: ) Elias
TerminallineBrooklyn route patternTPHSouth Crossing Manhattan routeManh. PatternNorth CrossingNorth Route N
patternTerminalNotesConey Island West End express 12 Manhattan Bridge AB 6th Ave. express CPW local 145th/Bedford Pk eves & weekends to 145th? Coney Island Brighton local 10 Manhattan Bridge AB 6th Ave. express Concourse express 205th St
Coney Island Culver express12 Rutgers 6th Ave local 53rd St Queens Blvd exp. 71st 179th St. All times exc nightsChurch Ave.
Crosstown local? ? non wkdys Smith/9th-QP95th St or Coney Is
4th Ave. or Brighton 7 Montague Nassau local Williamsb Bridge Myrtle Ave. Local Metropolitan Coney Island Sea Beach expressTD> 10 Manhattan Bridge H Broadway express 60th St Astoria Ditmars Blvd Brighton Beach Brighton express 12 (6 sb) Manhattan Bridge H Broadway express 63rd St Queens Blvd (peak) express 179th 179th St (peak); 57th St weekdays Church Ave Culver local 15 Rutgers 6th Ave. Local 63rd St. Queens Blvd local 71st or 179th St eves & wknds to Metropolitan, nights CI-179th
= 12 TPH =15TPH
Direct Broadway service for Queens Express riders, as well as direct 6th Av service for local riders.
Return of both Broadway and 6th Avenue service together on the Brighton Line
Throughput
Manhattan Bridge H 22
Manhattan Bridge AB 22
Montague St 22
Rutgers St. 27
63rd St 21
60th St 25
53rd St. 24
Queens local 30
Queens express 30
Alternative plan:
MetropolitanMyrtle Avenuelocal
8Williamsburg Bridge8th AvenuelocalCPWlocal
168th St.All times except nightsEuclid AvFulton St.Local8(nb)Cranberry St8th Avenue
local53rd StQueens Blvd.expressJamaica*14 tph from Queens; Nights to WTC
Church Av.Culverlocal10*
[S. Div terminal][S. Div route]local
7Montague St.Nassau St.Chambers St.Perhaps a few from Metro. as well Coney IslandCulver Express
16Rutgers St.6th Avenuelocal53rd St.Queens Blvd.
Express179th St.Nights, via 63rd St.WTC156th Avenuelocal63rd St.
Queens Blvd.Local71st or 179th St
Removes short (8 car) C trains from Fulton St. and places them on BMT Eastern Div. which is restricted to 8 car trains.
Brings midtown service to the Eastern Div.
Provides Queens riders more direct service to WTC
Surplus R-143 new technology trains assigned to Fresh Pond Yard would run on the main lines (8th Av.)
Is this your prediction or do you have facts to back it up. I see my Sea Beach goes over the Manhattan Bridge, but what is the H all about? Sounds like a catch to me. I'm sick of seeing my favorite train going through that stinking Montague Tunnel into the lower bowels of Manhattan. As far as I know your post pattern is far into the future. Clear it up. If this is really good news for the Sea Beach let me know. If it is not, don't piss me off.
This was a thread about people's wishes for the service pattern when the Bridge work is complete, so this is my wish list. I had sent these tables to the TA a couple of years ago. (and now decided to convert them to HTML to share on Subtalk.) They are patterned after the tables usrd on the East River Crossing study. "H" is simply the track designation for the south (Broadway) side of the bridge.
Unlike the current flip which required no hearings, they are scheduled to take major rider input regarding the final service pattern when the next phase is complete. Hopefully then you will get your Sea Beach back on the bridge, as well as other service improvements
Well ok. If that happens the drinks are on me. But you know the TA--------one screw up after another.
Apart from these concepts -
From what I read a while back, the D, Q and W will use the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks on weekdays, but on weekends, when only the D runs on the Brighton line, the W will be turned back at Pacific St. Why is this being done? If the Bridge can handle the greater weekday loads of the three services, why is the weekend restricted to only one? If the Bridge isn't strong enough for the D and W on weekends, how can it handle the D, Q and W on weekdays (especially rush hours, with their greater frequencies)?
This makes no sense to me, since the D and B (pre-W) both used the bridge every day of the week. The current proposal makes no sense to me and leaves the Southern Brooklyn area with no direct connection to mid-town Manhattan, the Bronx and Queens, except the long route through the tunnel and lower Manhattan. Yes, I know you can go upstairs at Pacific St. and switch to the D or IRT trains at Atlantic Ave., or wait for an N or R train to go another stop to DeKalb and switch to a D train, but why has the MTA provided these obstacles that don't exist now when the northside tracks are being used?
Mike Rothenberg
First of all, the D will not be serving Brooklyn. Instead there will be two Q services with one operating express M-F 6 am-9 pm, and a Q local operating 24 hours. And the reason that they are stopping W weekend services at Pacific Street is because it saves money (IMO). Also, they did this a few years back when the Bridge was closed, and only received a moderate level of complaints.
I can certainly understand why people are upset over losing through service from Chinatown to uptown and Brooklyn. However, it's really ridiculous that people are bellyaching about having to get off and wait for the next train on the same platform to continue their ride. The whiners really need to have an encounter with a Genuine Klewifier and maybe they'll get over the subway routings and get fired-up over something really worthwhile like keeping more power plants from being built.
I think some sort of long term project reducing capacity in the Montauge Street Tunnel is the cause. Instead of a service change every week, the N will run via the bridge every weekend.
My guess is it has something to do with some sort of construction project. There are plenty in the area. A case could be made that some of those projects ought to be postponed until the bridge is fixed, except that that day may never come.
I agree. It actually may be multiple projects, it's been an unusually long time since the last Montague closing. And that was for rehabbing Whitehall st. I'm sure the station rehab of Rector st. will be one of them, with the exception of 4th av Brooklyn it is the last station with the 70s tiling.
I love the neighborhood maps found in many subway stations and I would love to get them. The normal ones are giantic, but I've seen smaller ones that are about a foot in width; these are the ones I want. Does anyone know how to get these maps? I've heard that the giant ones are $20 so I'm hoping the smaller ones are much cheaper. The mta should put out a book of all their maps! Thanks.
The mta should put out a book of all their maps!
Yes! An atlas based on the TA neighborhood maps would be the best map of New York City.
It is amazingly helpful to know where each individual subway entrance is, somebody should make an atlas in that style.
Two comments:
1- are you willing to do this legwork and draw or photograph and scan all of these maps.
2- Do you have the web space/time. While I do not speak for our illustrious webmaster, there is a large amount of material waiting in the wings for the webmaster's time to place on this site.
Do I hear volunteers out in cyberspace?
MTA obviously has all that as a PDF file, also I've seen small ones in token booths, now the question is how do I get either of them. Doesn't sound like any amount of legwork will help here.
If I had paper versions I'd have plenty of time to scan them and I'd be willing to do so and put them up onto the space I have from my Internet provider.
Arti
I have this dream of making a super detailed map of new york city. I was planning to scan in the most detailed maps I can find, trace them with macromedia freehand, and make one big multilayer map of all five boroughs with all the subway and bus routes. Crazy? Probably. But after looking at the crude handdrawn Hagstrom maps all this time (until recently when they went digital), I need to have something better. Now if I had the PDFs, life would be SO much easier.
Here is what I just found on groups.google.com:
--------------------------
4/2/98
I recently called the MTA about getting one of the Astor Place
neighborhood station maps. I was told to put the request in writing, and
send it with $25 to:
New York City Transit
Customer Information Division
Room 9023-D
130 Livingston Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
I haven't sent off for mine yet, so I have no idea how long it takes or how it comes to you. Good luck!
--------------------------
Gee, I wonder what "number" did that person call. I hope the smaller maps are way cheaper.
I know that address. It's the Map Fulfillment desk. It's where I wrote to get a big subway map (the 4'x5' ones). It cost me $10 and it came in a huge cardboard tube.
-Dave
Don't forget that they have small versions of neighbourhood maps in token booths, they must cost less than the poster size ones.
At $25 a pop the whole NYC would become somewhat pricey.
Arti
Not to mention that it wouldn't include anything in Staten Island and all of the two-mode zones in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx.
Now the question becomes, do they regardless of the absence of SS, have a map of THAT neigbourhood?
Still salivating to get my hands...
Arti
Staten Island has a Neighborhood Map of St. George. But that's it.
Hello webmasters (of other subway/transit/relevant sites),
Want your web pages to be included in nycsubway.org's search engine?
Help me to maintain a list of your URL's. (My search engine won't "spider" a site but you can feed it a list of web pages to index.)
Drop me a line privately and I'll set you up.
-Dave
i have a railfan page we are setting up hope you like it connect it to where ever you can thank you sir !! @( for everything )
*********************************************
http://www.railfanview.bigstep.com
There was a recent post on nyc.transit about a webcast of CG Communications North Jersey RailScan LIVE rail radio communications. Listeners who use Real Player or Winamp can connect directly to the audio feed from their desktop. To listen with either of these programs use your "Open or Play Location" command and enter 166.90.148.106:15112
Others can can access the feed via Live365's built in JAVA based player by visiting http://railscan.webhop.net
Please see http://railscan.cjb.net for additional information.
I'm listening to it right now with RealPlayer 8 w/o problems. Pretty cool.
Now if only one would exist for NYCTA operations :)
--Mark
Wouldn't this be a violation of the law that says that it's
OK to monitor radio conversations so long as you do not
divulge their contents?
I have no idea.
--Mark
So it's illegal to talk about last night's movie of the week on TV too?
That's broadcast, not a private radio channel.
As I understood the so-called "scanner laws", it is OK to monitor
public service frequencies with the following exceptions:
1) Illegal to monitor cell phone calls
2) Illegal in most states to monitor law enforcement while in
an automobile
3) Illegal to rebroadcast or divulge the contents of the transmission
Have anybody seen the newest Amtrak Northeast Schedule booklet? The current schedule has been in effect since April 29. As of Monday, I haven't seen the booklet yet. I only saw bookmark-size schedules.
If any Subtalker finds the newest booklet, could you post it right away? Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa,
I was at South Station asking this morning, and the clerk didn't know when... or if... they would be issued. I am riding Acela Express tomorrow to NYC so I'll try again!
I tried last week. They are not published yet.
Why did Amtrak print all those thru service to certain points schedules? I thought I had the entire bookmark schedule as you called it but it turns out I don't.
You can download the entire bookmark schedule here. The Amtrak website even has the Metroliner/Acela Express bookmark schedule. I don't see this kind of schedule at Union Station.
Chaohwa
I went to Union Station this evening and found the Metroliner/Acela Express schedule. However, the schedule of all Amtrak trains between Washington and New York is unavailable at the moment.
Chaohwa
A Pennsylvania Station information-booth clerk told me they wouldn't have new booklets until October.
Howdy Folks,
I rode home in style yesterday as I headed home for the summer...I took the 3:12 PM train to New Haven. Overall, I thought the ride was fantastic....especially between Route 128 and a little bit after Providence Rhode Island. The conductor announced at 4:03 PM that we had reached 150 MPH, which was a few minutes after we departed Providence. Of course, the train had to go slower over the curves on the CT shoreline (it was crawling at New London), but there were still a few parts there too where we reached some good speeds. Train arrived on time in 2 hours, 6 minutes (5:18 PM).
For someone who had never been on a high speed rail before (I don't count the Mattapan Trolley!), the train was certainly impressive to me. I think Amtrak calling it "Acela" was a good move; because I really liked how both the acceleraion and decelleration was so natural..you hardly feel the conductor revving or using the brakes (even though they do of course).
I also have to tip my hat to Bombabrdier for the design. When I think about design, I usually think Kawasaki...not our Canadian builder. But the comfort was nice...I had 4 seats and a table all to myself, but even if i had to share it would still have been roomy. I also liked the digital signs and how they are similar to the 142s, the automated announcements were not annoying, and the sound that comes on before an announcement was very cool and 21st-century like for sure.
The 3:12 train was not packed at all. I assume that this is because not many business people are out of work yet, since I've seen the 5:12 PM train be at least 80% full on a few occasions. My guess is that the 3:12 may get more riders on a Friday afternoon.
But all in all, I really LOVED this ride...I encourage all railfans to save up and take a trip!! :-) -Nick
I'll have to save up some money and ride the Acela Express. I'm sure I will enjoy it too.
I work up in Stamford,Conn over the last few weeks Amtrak has added a train or two.Recently they have added Stamford stops.I plan to ride it sometime this summer I would catch it from Penn Station though Acela has a time table on its site with schedules and features about the train Acela.com
The automated announcements were actually working??? What about the stereo and cafe car TVs? What did the LEDs display?
What trainset did you have (enigne numbers)?
Sounds like you had a good trip.
"The automated announcements were actually working??? What about the stereo and cafe car TVs? What did the LEDs display?"
Yes, the "stand clear of the closing doors" announcement in a pleasant, female voice was being used. They did not give us headphones, so I don't think the seat stereo was working yet. But the cafe car tv's were working...they had some recorded CNN program running. The LED's in the car had a crawl reading "Acela Express Train 2171", and the ones by the door (inside) displayed the departure station, final destination, and next stop all at the same time...but this was usually only a few minutes before the stop was made.
"What trainset did you have (enigne numbers)?"
I should be shot for this, but I did not right the #'s down :( However, I think one of them was 2017 and maybe the other was 2034 (?)
"Sounds like you had a good trip."
INDEED!! :-) -Nick
2034 is paired with 2032. I don't know what 2017 is paired with (2016 is with 2038).
That doors closing thing is standard. The announcements I was referring to are susposed to be along the lines of "We are now arriving at Washington". No one has heard them since they don't work.
The interior LED is also susposed to (and capable of if the conductor takes the time) to say thing such as "CAFE CAR IS OPEN", "CHECK FOR YOUR PERSONAL BELONGINGS", and "NOW ARRIVING IN NEW HAVEN".
It is amazing what you learn when you talk to the train crew. It is how I got in the power car.
Other trainsets are 2009-2020 and 2030-2031.
Here's a list of all the trainsets. I'll be on the 3:12 out of Boston today to NYC, so I'll see if Nick's theory about more passengers on that trip on Friday is right.
2017 is paired with 2036.
Chaohwa
"2034 is paired with 2032"
This must have been my trainset then...I am pretty sure I saw 2034. -Nick
Just a quick question to the group: It appears that there are two types of Acela locomotives in use:
1) The Power Car, which is used on the Acela train sets. It has the sloped front and a flat back to mate with the Acela coaches.
2) The locomotives used with general North-East Direct trains that have started to appear over the past few months. These are sloped at both ends. I havent paid attention to whether they have two pantographs.
Does anyone know whats going on here?
John.
The other "ACELA" locomotive is called an HHP-8 and it is an E60 replacement for heavy trains needing lots of TF. Amtrak has them moving them up the load tree as they are broken in. They first appeared on Keystone trains, then Metroliners and I guess they will finally be put on the long haul jobbers replacing the E60's.
I recently took my first ride on an R-142 and was somewhat disappointed. (I've been riding the (6) R-142a consists since they were put in.)
The ride was very similar to the 142a, but inside the train the air smelled of ozone. The walls of the train are bare and very bright white, giving the train a boring, institutional look even more so than the 142a. The external LCD displays were smaller and dimmer then on the 142a. The internal LED displays are smaller, higher up in the bulkhead and appear to display only red.
Dan
The 2 train is indicated with a red bullet. Maybe that is why. I wouldn't have guessed at first that the R142A interior LED could display green.
Tuesday morning I boarded the (F) train towards Manhattan about 7:30. I rode in lead car 6130 and the T/O had his door braced open with that yellow piece of wood that all T/Os have. I enjoyed a very fast, smooth express run, but something curious happened as we exited 65th: the speedometer dropped rapidly to zero and stayed there until the next time the train's speed dropped below 35.
Anyone know what caused this?
Dan
A possible defective speedsensor. a possible reset of the control cutout breaker ( cc ), usually does the trick.
The squirrels on the treadmill that measures speed couldn't keep up :)
--Mark
The R-46 does not use the same Doppolar system for speed indication that most cars do. Instead, they use a magnetic pick-up that counts the teeth on the bull-gear in the #1 gearcase. This magnetic pick-up rides 1/32" - 1/16" from the gear teeth. If this dimension is not properly maintained, the sensor will either be damaged or will 'count' intermittantly - especially at higher speeds.
I was once on a C train and when the train was stopped, the indication on the speedometer indicated the train was picking up speed. The reading was close to 70 before the train started to move, when it quickly reverted to 1, 2, 3, etc.
I don't know, but I've noticed that speedometers often delay reporting slowdowns.
Do any cars not have speedometers at all? I was riding the front car of a 2 Redbird this afternoon. The cab door was propped open slightly and I peered all over the place but I didn't see the familiar digital display.
All cars used in revenue service should have a speedometer.
I don't know, but I've noticed that speedometers often delay reporting slowdowns.
In actuality, the speedometers are required to have a refresh rate that is fast enough that when counting up or counting down at maximum acceleration/deceleration, the display should not skip any numbers. This may account for a slight delay in reporting actual speed changes, especially at the low end.
Look over the T/O head. It is right in the middle of the window.
Robert
I know where they are.
TD, I have a question. I had an R32 a little while back where the speedometer would only display odd numbers. Even when the train was stopped, it would display 1 mph, then moving would say 3,5,7,etc.
What would cause this?
32's with SPEEDOS?!?!?! When the @!^&%$#@ did THIS happen? Geez! Back in those days, a REAL "T/O" (sorry, "lack of motorman" doesn't cut it and no folks, I ain't the LEAST bit sexist personally, I work for my wife who is CEO of the company I work for and no, I'm a common wage slave here, not an "officer" so if I had any sexism in my bones, I woulda been railroadkill a LONG time ago) ... long tangent, I repeat now ... a REAL MOTORMAN was expected to GUESSTIMATE speed by eyeball back in my days ... SPEEDO? Them's SWIMMING trunks ... we didn't need no dang speedo on OUR trains ... you knew by the stuff in your face what was too fast, or too slow. NO SPEEDOS in the old subway stuff, and that INCLUDED the 32's which didn't have any either. What gives?!?!
Back in those days, you FELT your way through the tunnels ... you KNEW how fast the steel went by outside your cab before the signal wouldn't clear ... you KNEW what was too fast and what was too slow just by the sound your train made. You didn't NEED to look away from the iron to look at stupid numbers ... YOU and the RAILS were ONE. You *KNEW* what was the right speed for the territory and you KNEW what "15 MPH" was ... you could count the TIES and know if you were over the limit.
NOW I'M PEEVED ... what the HELL happened to the school car?!?!?!
That was called "the good ol' days". Be thankful that you were a part of it.
If it makes you feel any better Sel, the only trains without speedometers are the redbirds (I think that I just made another redbird fan).
Heh. Nah ... it wasn't the redbirds that I didn't care for so much, it was the *IRT* ... when you live at the far north end of the IRT and need to get somewhere, it's a frustrating railroad ... one of the things that prompted me to move upstate was the IRT. It would take me an hour or more to get into Manhattan from the North Bronx with the IRT making every whistle stop, flag stop, dog stop from hither to yon and damn if I wasn't late to work more often than not ...
I eventually realized that it took an hour to get from POUGHKEEPSIE to Manhattan, just as long as the IRT took from the Bronx. :)
I eventually realized that it took an hour to get from POUGHKEEPSIE to Manhattan
Except that trip takes nearly two hours. (I made it quite regularly in the '50s and early '60s, with my mother, and the schedule hasn't changed much.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An hour on the IRT is about the same amount of "real time" ... heh.
Actually, the Redbirds do have speedometers. A couple of 2 trains I've been on got up to 42 on the 7th Ave straightaway.
Of course, on the R-1/9s, you could judge your speed by the sound of the bull and pinion gears. Let's just say anything over F# above middle C was hauling (howling?) ass.
Some do, some still don't. Also, some of the newer cars (i.e. R62A's) don't have them. I was on the lead car of a 3 train, whose number ended in 7, and I looked through the little window in the cab door to find no speedometer.
Thanks for that ... that's PRECISELY how we knew how fast we were rolling ... who needed speedos when you KNEW your train?
That's a new one on me. Of course, in the shops, we don't fix speedometers - we replace them. I'd suppose it has to do with the internal logic. Interesting would be to see how it read in the reverse direction. If it counted even numbers only - that would be something.
I know where it's supposed to be. I didn't see it there. Is it ever placed elsewhere? (This was around 5pm Thursday on a SB 2, which I rode from 72nd to Clark. I don't have the car number but most of the lights went out periodically, if that's a clue.)
Regarding the lagging speedometers:
I watched as I rode the 3 yesterday morning (96th to Park Place). Routinely the speedometer read 5 when the train came to a stop. At one stop (72nd, IIRC) it was still as 7 or 8 when the train stopped. It then quickly fluttered down to 0.
Maybe something in the speedometer assembly malfunctioned. Since the display is electronic that also could have malfunctioned.
BMTJeff
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
May 19, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic. Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
Disclaimer: This message is not intended to express an
opinion on the quality of the R142A fleet or its relative
merits with respect to other car classes that may or may not
in the coming years participate in the first-ever ERA fantrip
to include scuba gear...........
Aboard R142A car 7306 today.
The automatic side signs were out of sync. C/r was making manual
announcements. OK, no news there. Somehow, though, this screwed
up the ding-dong, which did not sound as the doors closed. Also
got to see the door recycle feature in action....worked well.
I didn't have a chance to speak with the crew and see if they
had tried to reset the automatic system. I think a lot of these
problems are lack of training.
For the first time, I observed the light flicker problem that
another poster mentioned last week. I don't have any drawings
or real tech info on the LVPS system on these cars, but I
assume it is similar to, say, the R62. When the car goes over a
gap, a capacitor bank is supposed to provide enough charge to keep
all the fluorescents lit fully for a few seconds. After that, the
inverter switches to battery power and lights up fewer tubes.
In this observed behavior, all of the lights went completely out
for perhaps a 1/10th of a second. Is this a known QC problem
with the cars?
This I consider to be the most major fault: On this car,
consistently during initial acceleration, there were 5 or 6
distinct dropouts. By that I mean that the car's tractive effort
appeared to drop to 0 and then come right back up to full, within
about 1/4 second. Had it happened once or twice I might have
ascribed it to poor third rail contact, but it was at every
stop. I did not notice any change in the pitch or amplitude of
the whine from the traction package during these dropouts.
Anyone have any technical insights (as opposed to the usual
"they're junk"/"no they're not"/"yes they are" bickering?)
Jeff H.
Did you notice the rough stops when braking ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes but I think that was simply the t/o stopping in full service.
>>stopping in full service
Hey that happens on the R46 on the way to work for me... Must be the new training method then.
Today on one of the newer sets 7351-7360?) the digital sign thing was screwed up, but not totally to human error. When leaving BB, the train correctly displayed "Canal st Next". The problem is, it stayed that way until 14st. No automated functions at all were occurring. I believe it even entered BB like that, since it was the first time in a while I saw a train enter the station headed northbound with the destination signs correctly set (usually they're still saying To Brooklyn Bridge). A glance at the strip maps indicated that this train was running in neither direction between 28st and Castle Hill ave. All cars on the train were like this. Exterior signs showed it was a circle 6 to Pelham Bay Park. The C/R gave up and cleared it at Astor, so everything was blank inside and out until well after I got off (14st).
BTW: The chime only sounds if the last thing to come over the PA was "Stand Clear of the Closing doors please." If the C/R doesn't push that button, or makes a manual announcement after doing so, no chime.
Bombardier R-142 on the 2, last night #6421-30 the VCN automated system was working fine. when it got to 110th st. chimes and voices stopped working however the map and led was working flawlessly. conductor tried to reset it going downtown but, no success. system was turned off and map was left blinking at 34th st. on the way uptown, system was doing the same thing. while led and map was working the way it should the conductor had to do announcements. everything worked well, the brakes felt stronger than before with minimal squeaking and no sign of fade. it was taken out of service to fix the VCN problem and will return to pm rushour service this afternoon. if it is fixed by then.
the whine noise,its not a problem. its just the way it was built. the lights flicker because the current collecter hits a crack in the third rail, which causes a quick short out, that caused the extremely qck flicker of the lights. if that particular car is having destinct dropouts, it could be and electrical problem or defective traction motor. the VCN automated system has been giving problems for some time since it was mentioned in the media and has been corrected with most except with new sets that has just arrived on the R-142A. they will correct it soon.
You didn't read the post too carefully. I didn't say the
whine was a problem.
When the shoe hits a discontinuity in the contact rail, the result
is an open circuit, not a short circuit. Again, this should not
cause the lights to flicker. It doesn't on any other car class
(except the Corona 33/36 fleet, which uses an older lighting system)
See message #220709
Applied the Throttle??
It was in RUN 8..
When stopped the independant was on full and the train line had about 20% air left I believe from an unconfirmed report but the loco was in RUN 8 without a doubt.
I've also heard they tried a derailer but the train just barreled through it. They also had another loco in front that was going to tie on but that supervisor that jumped onto the train ended that plan.
I am going to make my way into NYC this Friday. Is there any way that I can see the R143 set, or will it likely be in the barn at 207th st.?
I would love to see it in testing if possible, but I haven't heard exactly when that will start yet. Also, if any subtalkers would like to meet on Friday, please let me know. -Nick
It's in the barn at East New York Yard. It probably isn't even hooked up electrically yet, since last week when they were delivered to 207th and moved to ENY. Testing begins next month IIRC
I saw some R-143 photos today that were taken this past Monday at East New York Shop. The lights were on, both interior and exterior.
David
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
blockfront projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Preservation Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored facade
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Today while working on the No.2 Line I noticed a R 36 with No.2 signs at E 180 Yard. The car Nos. were in the 9700's series.
I saw 9760-69 at the East as of 8:30 this evening, and were signed for the 5. What's this all about?
You lose one set on the 7 and send it to the mainline, what did the mainline lose in exchange for the Corona R-36s?
-Stef
because the 2 line is losing equipment and has serious crowding, they are being lent 2 sets of R-36WF's until all or a few R-142's make it to service. just like the the R-62A from the 1 line is being lent to the 5. if a few more R-142's make it to service and stay in service, then they will go back around mid to late june.
How do the trains from Corona get to #2 Line?
There is no visible connection between #7 and #2 lines on the track map.
There were some R-36's on the 6, and that's probably what you're seeing.
(If they were transferred from Corona, they'd go over the BMT and then switch over to the IND and use the ramp to Jerome Av. from track 5 at Concourse yard)
The 9700s are from Corona, not Westchester. It is a very large pain in the ass to attempt to get something from the 7 to another IRT line, involving either pulling into 57/7 (must be on local track due to switch out of comission), past the station onto the express track, reverse up 63rd, reverse again to get to the 6th ave tracks, go down to 47-50 onto the express tracks (probably wrong-rail in) and reverse again to get to Concourse, then to the 4, down to 125, reverse and up to 180. Or (and this probably would take longer but is much simpler) they simply ran it down the N to CI and up the D to Concourse, same as above. What they probably did is simply take some of the cars that were being repaired at CI and instead of returning them to Corona sent them to the mainline.
By the way, when the Manny B north side is out of comission the repeated reversal thing will be the only methood left, except possibly sending it back up via the F.
Early this morning while i was working a Traffic Checker at Nevins St in Brooklyn. R36 Lead Car #9765-64/9766-9767/9760-9761/9768-9769/9762-9763 last car on #5 line. Also saw few R26/28/29 running on 2 line too.
BTW: Saw R142 6301-6310 & 6421-6430 running great & got very good break also saw 1851-1855/1691-1695, 1866-1870/1751-1755 & 2201-2205/2261-2265 on #5 line today.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation
While working the 7 on Tuesday night, we were held between 45 Rd and HP while waiting for a 10 car Corona to E.180St transfer set to cross in front of us.
I rode WF R 36 9765 on #2 this morning around 9 a.m. Any ideas ?????
Portland Ore. is filming a movie titled the" hunted " staring Tommy Lee Jones,one of the scenes is the use of a max light rail train over the Hawthorne bridge in downtown Portland, this bridge has no trolley line on it,it was removed from the center two lanes in the mid 50's it's one of Portlands oldest bridges,but for this movie they did have a max train crossing the Willamatte River,by using diesel powered max train shells with tires and a steering wheel,i took photos using a digital camera,now how do i get the photos onto this site ? i have att worldnet so any info would be appreciated,thanks.
Karl,
There's no way for you to "get pictures onto this site" in the sense that they reside on my server, but you can email them to me (maybe you could include a bunch of legit. Portland photos since we have none?). Or you can host them on your own web page and just link to them like some other people do...
-Dave
Thanks Dave i'll try to get my own web page thanks,theirs plenty of traction action here in Portland,i'll get some photos.
I have heard different things from differnt people, but when the extension is finished will the line still be called "The city subway" or "Newark Subway?" If so it doesn't make sense since it is going out of the city limits of Newark.
Thanks
Mike
Mr Mass Transit
Did any of you catch the report on graffitti gangs on Channel 5 News tonight? They showed a guy tagging the Grand-Newton stop in Queens. He even went right onto the tracks and on a 3rd rail cover. I have no sympathy if he gets hit by a train.
This problem seems to be quite bad in Queens (no suprise there).
These kids need to be taught a tough lesson. (whip!)
Did any of you catch the report on graffitti gangs on Channel 5 News tonight?
It's called the New York Post television version.
The commercials, and how dramatic they make everything seem just turned me off. I was totally turned off from channel 5 news when they had several news reports about how "today's teens" are more dangerous and are smoking deadly crap.
I think I should go back to my previous boycott of every TV news program except for 60 Minutes and Nightline.
Hardball on MSNBC as well as Frontline one PBS are also fine news broadcast.
I don't know about hardball as I don't get MSNBC, and I wouldn't even if I had the evil wire running to my house (stupid Cablevision). Harness the power of space! Break the Atlantic City-based game.
I agree with you 110%
There's a 50-50 shot a kid tagging graffitti in Queens is actually from Nassau or Westchester (and even well-to-do)...
I actually wanted to post first about this report. I have actually wrote a letter of discontent to Fox 5 WNYW about why did they focus on GANG GRAFFITI, which is ruining property with this defacemment and not focus on real Aresol Art, Like phun phactory and sanctioned murals and the like, they disreguarded the artistic side and went straight for gang activity, but one thing they got right, Bad graffiti is a queens problem, Bronx and Brooklyn hass no real problem like queens, their only problem is ME.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
BREAKING NEWS: The Bergen Arches/Erie Cut are listed as one of New Jersey's "10 Most
Endangered Historic Sites 2001" by Preservation New Jersey, ushering in a major preservation
campaign (go to www.jclandmarks.org for more info)...
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
blockfront projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Preservation Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored facade
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Yah Yah we get the picture, you don't have to post this every day.
I post our tours regularly so that new SubTalkers may get the opportunity to view them.
-John Gomez, Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
P.S. NJ Transit has provided us with 25 free Light Rail passes, which we will use to get to the terminal.
***************************************************************
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places.
Please visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Okay, how many more does he post before it becomes spam?
Dave?
Yeah, I think this is kind of getting out of hand. Try to cut back just a little on the daily postings alright? You have to remember John (Gomez) that this site does not necessarily have that much local (Jersey City) readership. The web is worldwide, people outside of a certain small radius could care less about seeing these posts over and over.
Sorry, SubTalkers. I'll refrain from posting on a daily basis. You guys are right--no one from Jersey City reads SubTalk postings. However, a few folks on our tours have mentioned that they saw our events listed on SubTalk, which tells me there are people out there (New Yorkers) who appreciate our transportation landmarks. Still, I'll stop posting.
John
I do appreciate your posts. I don't see why they need to be made every day. Couldn't you cut back your posts to once a week or so?
For future events I will post only once, I swear! Again, sorry for disturbing SubTalk--honestly!
John
Thank you.
Now if you could lose the caps lock...
Lose the caps? Are there some unspoken rules/regulations among SubTalkers that I should know about? If so, please let me know what they are so as to avoid uneccesary exchanges. Thanks!
Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting and is considered impolite; this is general, not specific to SubTalk.
It sounds like nonsense, but if it makes everyone happy, so be it.
It looks annoying to read all caps, but if it's just the subject, no big deal.
Caps are used for emphasis. Makes no sense if every word is like that.
Does anyone have any information on fan trips the New York Transit Museum will have this summer useing the Triplex equipment?
Yes ... three of them to the Rockaways on June 17, July 15 and July 29th. Members Preview is being printed up this week, I believe.
--Mark
This morning, I rode an R-142A from Grand Central south and through the City Hall Loop. I mention this because I also got my first hands-on look at the R-143 today. More to follow (including photos) but I will sat that after sitting in the T/O's seat, it was built for comfort and the T/Os will love it. The car looks like the R-142 inside but it clearly is not a larger version of it.
Any of the "reported" problems??
How do they sound in the loop??
None of the reported problems. A little harder starting than the Bombardier version and the 'stepping' on acceleration seemed more pronounced but the brakes are great. More than once, I was sure that the operator would put a door or two out of the station but she made a perfect 10 car stop each time. There was a bit of motor noise on the intercom but I'm not sure if it was the car or an indiginous problem.
Ilike these cars. they are a bit bright but I can live with that.
The bright colors look a whole lot better than that pukey beige the MTA seems to have favored over the last 15 years.
The bright colors look a whole lot better than that pukey beige the MTA seems to have favored over the last 15 years.
Finally. Somebody who agrees with me. Maybe you should join me in the Physics of Subway Straps thread, where this is discussed and the other two people actually LIKE that color scheme. The revelation that there is anybody on Earth who prefers the puke beige scheme makes me want to throw up.
I prefer the comforting, muted fake wood of the 44/46s.
Dan
R142A's: Kawasaki (on the 6 line), just like the R143's.
R142: Bombardier ( on the 2 line). They are starting to come back on the road.
What color(s) seats did you see in the interiors of the R143(s)? -Nick
The day I when aboard I was very impress with the train. THe seats were dark blue. The walls light blue.
Sounds like a return to the 1964 R-32 color scheme. About time.
Now all it needs are corrugated exterior panels....
The R-32s have grey seats and an offwhite interior.
Now they do. But not in 1964 when they were first delivered, and that's the color scheme I was talking about.
ah, I see. They really rebuilt those cars in the 80s, didn't they. Did they have more comfortable seats than today?
Pretty much the same seats, only light blue.
The R-33/36WF interiors were originally the same color, except they came with the gray bench seats when new.
Often you can see where the gray paint wears off, exposing the blue. On the window frame also (looks green from yellowing)
"The seats were dark blue and the walls light blue." how come when i saw it, the seats were sea green colored and the walls were white?
You mean to say it's SMALLER inside? Sorta the reverse of Dr Who's phone box? :)
A Bombardier TARDIS -- now that's a scary thought :-)
No question ... we're going to have to get Heypaul to bring his magic hibachi and perform an exorcism ...
HeyWHO?
See? It WORKED! :)
This trip is still on. We will meet at the Manhattan End of the 4-5 Platform at Atlantic Ave Brooklyn at 930AM. Wait where the head car's railfan window would be. We will board the 1018 train with a change at Jamaica (2 minutes) and Huntington (6 minutes).
All Manhattan Trains on the 2-3 run express from Franklin to Atlantic. I will be wearing a navy NYCT sweater and a striped engineer's cap (not NYCT issued) . THe LIRR fare is $7.25- we are travelling off-peak.Metro-north fare will be less than $9.50 which is off-peak to Grand Central-- their web site does not show intermediate fares. We will buy our ticket from Bridgeport to Fordham We have to change trains at Stamford for the local which stops at Fordham. Once at Fordham we will take the BX12 bus to University Heights Bridge. There we will examine the Universaity Heights Station of the Hudfson Line and see the 207 street yard . The 207 yard view is from the street. We will then board the 1 train where the tour will end. be sure to wear a sweater for the ferry. The trip will run rain or shine although our resident transit and weather together expert( Todd) says fair weather.
This is the last reminder for this trip. Due to scheduling there will not be a re-run of this trip at a later date.
Buffy,
Please don't consider this a nitpick, but an attempted minor clarification. The way I read the LIRR timetables online, train 8816 leaves Flatbush at 10:18 and arrives Jamaica 10:41. The train that arrives Jamaica 11:00 and departs 11:02 is the train out of NYP. This gives you an extra 17 minutes to look at the double slip switches off both ends of the platform.
Bob
Flatbush to Jamaica (click "weekends" under "to Jamaica" on the left)
NYP to Huntington
I am checking the 3/19 to 6/17/01 timetable for the Port Jeff Branch now.
The 1018 involves a change at Jamaica.Arrives 1100, leaves 1102(trains7620,6610). the 1102 from Jamaica arrives Huntington at 1145 and the connecting train leaves 1151. Thisd backs up the e-mail I received from a participant.
You are welcome to join the tour. Meet at 930am at the Manhattan end of the 4-5 platform at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn, where the railfan window of a Manhattan bound train would be.
Cost-LIRR $7.35(off-Peak 1 way) , MNRR-$9.50MAX(off-peak ticket from Bridgeport to GCT) and we will change at Stamford for the Local since only the locals stop at Fordham.
You will also need your MetroCard for the Subway to Atlantic, The BX12 Bus and finally the A Train after we explore University Heights. Station of the Hudson Line and see the 207 Street complex. For 207 Street we will have to confine ourselves to a view from the street.
People, im 18, I live on S.I. and my dad works for the transit authority..dealing with Metrocards...this is my first post anyway to the point....
Has any 28's 29's 30's 33's and 36's been scrapped due to the new R-142's? (R-142A) I have heard that there has been some minor problems with the new cars....so have they kept all of the rolling stock since recieving the new cars or gotten some old stuff out? Also, how much life do the redbirds have left on the system? 1 or 2 years?
What service changes has there been....I know there are 143's on the 2 and 6....what about the 3,4,5,7'? Some1 update me if you will please....thanks!
R143's on the 2 and 6?? you mean r142's. any way, the 3 are getting r62's from the 6 i think, 4 and 5... well ,every irt line will be getting the r142's except the 7 (they don't like us) the 6 will give up its r62's to the 7. but still i don't know when they are coming? they take too long. the birds are about to break down on us.
they just keep on sending us more redbirds and more.
by the way, i am 15 and i just put up my first post on tuseday.
Chris:
The 1/9 will not get any R-142's. The 3 and 4 might, but not right now. And of course they like the 7. it has the highest A div. MDBF rate.
Redbirds Forever:
So far, there have been reports on this site of a pair of 'birds at 207th, scavenged (meaning they're most likely retired). And, there is also reports that another set is off the active roster. I don't have the #'s, maybe someone else soes.
BTW: I'm 16, and I posted my first post almost a year ago. There are a significant number of, um, kids on this board (never say minors. you might offend American Pig.)
What's wrong with saying minors to him? Will it make him put a bag over his head a la Monty Python?
Dan
He made the following equation (his opinion):
minor:youth::nigger:black person
He considers it a racist remark.
He considers it a racist remark.
It's obviously not a racist remark, but it is condescending. It expresses inferiority.
UH OH, you're in for it now 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Most of the younger people on this board have more sense than the elders.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thankyou Andee!!! i am 15
do you know when the r62 will be on the 7?
Knowing the TA probably about 8 years. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
When enough R142A cars are in service without a problem every other day.
If you want my advice, enjoy the redbirds while you can. I got my share of R142A rides in for the next several months last week. Now, its back to the redbirds...
Most of the younger people on this board have more sense than the elders.
I have the most scents.
I have the most scents.
Do I smell bacon frying? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>The 1/9 will not get any R-142's.
HALLE-armadillo-LUJAH!!!!!!!!
...besides... methinks Andrew (a 7 train afficionado)
and myself composed a deal to swap him our r62a's
for his redbird entourage... gladly take back the
redheads to the 1/9..
WHY you still mad,dude? CHILL and relax ....you'll get youre R62A'S.... man oh man....
my mistake....142's on the 2 and 6...sorry
Whats the status of the Redbirds?
STILL RUSTING !
Bill "Newkirk"
I rode one last night the light fixture cam e flying down to the floor I think its time to say goodby to the redbirds I love them too but sadly its time!!!!!
I'm sure the Post has contracted photogs for when motors start falling off onto the streets below ... it's a pity but they're now posing a serious risk to life and limb ... they're DANGEROUS ... if someone was sitting where the fixture landed, they'd have hit the Legal Lotto ...
Ya know I'm starting to think those monkeys
who ran amok on the 1 line back in 1994
have hit the 2 (?) line and are to blame
for the lighting fixture coming loose..
They were HANGING off (putting full and
uninhibited body weight) ON the bars of
the r62 for Bombardier sakes!!.. just
think what that would equal on a redbird
straphanger..
ps.. nice handle, Redbirds Forever!!
Oops! The lights on my 2 yesterday afternoon kept going out -- not all the lights, but most of the lights in the car. They'd stay out for a minute or two and come back on. I assume the T/O and C/R weren't playing games with the switches and this was a malfunction of sorts. It almost felt like I was on the 7.
most of the elders have most of the cents.
Dark clouds have silver linings. The redbirds last flights on the 7 give the best photo oportunities. Consider trying to capture an entire consist underground. Maybe if you were a fly on the ceiling at the GC station with an extra wide angle lens. If you doubt as Saalem.
avid
Amtrak leased some LRC locomotives and cars from via and returned them. Anybody know More about LRC?
LRC was built by either MLW or Bombardier - not sure which. I understand that it is actually a fancy carbody on a modernized ALCO and used an ALCO 251 engine for power. These LRCs are set up to run at about 100MPH on some sections of track between Montreal and Toronto. ?P?Their age is showing now and they may soon be retired. ?P?
LRC stood for "light, rapid, comfortable" From what I've read, it wasn't light, it wasn't that rapid, and it wasn't really comfortable either. And it wasn't reliable either, initially. I think it tilts, or tilted, but that didn't work well.
Last August my wife and I rode on an LRC train from Montral to Qubec City and return. Both ways were quite comfortable, although our return trip was delayed a bit because the LRC power car experienced problems before we boarded and a replacement F40 had to be connected. The tilting is imperceptible; it also doesn't work with the F40 so the return trip was slightly slower.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
since I volunteer for the transit museum I heard some stuff about trips. to update u guys on the museum, there is supposed to be a series of D type triplexes going to Rockaway park. Anyway the first D type has been closed off for some reason, the A train R16 in the back has also been closed and so has that R17 in the back by the worlds fair car. I will keep u updated as I find out
They're probably doing a movie shoot or photo shoot back there. I can recall while I was there, they would use the R-33 World's Fair Car to do commercials, and Music Videos.
-Stef
Service is out right now due to an accident on that line. News 4 just showed a picture a few moments of an MU with it's front end smashed. It would appear according to the news that a crane collided with the 209 Train out of Flatbush Av.
Bus service is being provided between Valley Stream and Far Rockaway right now.
-Stef
"Bus service is being provided between Valley Stream and Far Rockaway right now."
MTA Long Island Bus must be really busy. Time to drag out those mothballed Gilligs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Channel 2 also says N32 is accepting LIRR Tickets from Lynnbrook to Far Rock.
Just caught the latest live video on Ch.7 at 6:00PM. A falling crane struck the M-1 electric as it was passing. The corner of the MU has been opend up as expected. There are some dents on the roof, but not sure if this accident was the cayse.
Incident happened at or near the Hewlett Station. The M-1 was one of the few with remaing blue side bands. It seems the mate was untouched. Car numbers are hard to see at this time. The car number in the front is not there anymore because that corner was ripped away.
Crane operator was taken to hospital. Some injuries like cut lip when passenger hit seat frame. These M-1s don't have the frame cushions Metro North has. Count on this M-1 winding up on the scrap line, with the LIRR already short of equipment. Perhaps a sidelined mate can be found for the divorced mate.
Bill "Newkirk"
Aye! Sounds like a problem to me. I was wondering if the damage is restricted to just the end, perhaps they could transplant a new nose? If it is more severe, then I guess we can kiss the car goodbye.
-Stef
It's more than just the nose, it's the roof line too. The whole top corner of the car is mangled, including the bonnet and the collar behind it. The number plaque is destroyed too and this car didn't have the number painted on the end door either. I would guess 9600's series because of the blue sides. There is also damage down the side too but not on the scale as the end.
It will probably wind up at HolBan yard sooner or later at which time the unit number will be visible. Since no fatalities were involved, I don't see them painting it over or concealing the number.
In the meantime, if anyone has the unit number please post it.
wayne
"was wondering if the damage is restricted to just the end, perhaps they could transplant a new nose? If it is more severe, then I guess we can kiss the car goodbye."
That's right, Stef. With new M-7s on the horizon the only thing the LIRR is concerned about the current M-1s is keeping them rolling. No more overhauls or rebuilds. In fact, an engineer friend of mine with 25+ years on the railroad tells me that the first M-7s are due on the property later this year. That approximate time doesn't include foulups, miscues or gaffs !
Bill "Newkirk"
With that said, it's time to bid the M-1's farewell. Hope the M-7's will be a success.
You suppose the ERA is going to have a fantrip using M-1s?
-Stef
Hey, Bill. Maybe the LIRR could borrow the SOAC set from Seashore to replace those M-1 units....;-D.
BMTman
"Hey, Bill. Maybe the LIRR could borrow the SOAC set from Seashore to replace those M-1 units....;-D. "
Todd Glickman's gonna love you for that remark...er joke !! You were joking were you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Who, me? Never!!!
"Who, me? Never!!!"
You mean WHAT ME WORRY !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I know I really like those blue stripes. It seems the M-1's with blue stripes are most common on the Long Beach and Rockaway lines.
I can't swear to this number but it looked like #9592 (or #9692) as seen on the Ch.5 10PM news. I will try again at 11PM.
wayne
From what I saw on the news the front car is totally messed up, it's a miracle that the injuries were minor. As to how this happened it's up the investigators, but certainly with the ever increasing amount of track work going on, this presents a danger to workers and the people on the train.
Perhaps an idea to consider is track work at night, suspending service on the line so no workers or trains are in danger.
I'll have to wait to see the pictures, but I bet the fact that the front end partly crumpled *prevented* injuries, if the tyrain ran into the object, because it absorbed energy, instead of transmitting it through the train....
Does it look like the train crashed into the crane, or vice versa? By looking at the damage it appeared the train crashed into the crane, with the way the front car looks.
I wonder how fast the engineer was going, it looked like he was going fast. I know the stops are fairly close together on that line, so I never thought trains could get so much speed.
well maybe the train had bad brakes. I'm sure the FRA and NTSB will take a close look at the accident and we will learn more as they investigate.
The entire side of the car from the clamshell back 3 windows is completely torn off. A 95xx M1 wouldn't have been replaced by an M7 until 2003. Even then, it will be only 33 years old. The MP54's got their first overhaul at that age. Wonder if either LI or MN has opposite-genedered orphan they could pair its mate up with.
BTW, the M7 will be of no resemblance to an M1 or 3. Look at the Bombardier website under press releases. They're VERY homely looking, and are probably a derivative of the Montreal AMT EMU body.
The M-1's had a nice interior for their time (60s and 70s) but it's time for something a little more modern. They look kinda dreary.
Then it's time to redo the interiors then. SEPTA's Silverliner IV's are almost pushing 30, and with a cool stripe on the exterior and a brand new interior, we have a fleet that could pass as brand new (PATCO could do the same to their fleet as well).
The entire side of the car from the clamshell back 3 windows is completely torn off. A 95xx M1 wouldn't have been replaced by an M7 until 2003. Even then, it will be only 33 years old. The MP54's got their first overhaul at that age. Wonder if either LI or MN has opposite-genedered orphan they could pair its mate up with.
Rather than look for an orphan, the LIRR probably should fix the damaged car and put it back into service. And if you say that's impossible, that the damage is too severe, I have a very simple and brief response: 4461.
If they REALLY wanted to, they could pull the bonnet off of fire-damaged #9724 or #9717, which sit mouldering in HolBan Yard.
They also have a fair amount of sheet-metal work to do too.
The damage extended into the first row of the seating area as well.
Didn't something similar happen to a parked M-1 in that derailment outside of Huntington back about 10 years ago? IIRC it was a 933x car (even number);
wayne
What is HolBan yard?
Holban Yard is in Hollis, Queens near 188th St & Liberty Ave, on the LIRR main line. It's just east of where the Montauk Division branches off from the Main line. There used to be a freight yard there, but it now has a huge MU maintenance facility.
So it's Hillside facility. The place is huge. Are generally all the electric and diesel units stored there? Or are there other places LIRR lays up trains.
There are two sections to Holban yard, as far as I can see. the first, where the recently built Hillside Facility stands, used to be a freight yard, but now does the maintenance work for the electric MU equipment. The second, located along the Montauk branch and behind the Hillside facility, holds the MW equipment from what I can see ( snow fighting equipment, ballast equipment, and the like ), and holds some cars that look like they are bound for the scrapyard. You can see this from any east or westbound train on the Montauk branch, and theHillside facility can be seen from any hempstead train or from the platform of Hollis Station at the westernmost end.
Yeah a remember seeing some pretty decrepit scrap MU's last time I rode on the Montauk branch (the last 2 times I took the Babylon we were rerouted via Atlantic). One looked like it had a fire and another was full of grafitti. I am going to take a Babylon express train from Babylon to Jamaica on Monday, and we better go via Montauk!
I miss that line.
I wonder where the victim M-1 unit of the accident is being stored?
Unfortunately, this was another even/east car wrecked as well.
Furthermore, the LIRR is no longer psychologically capable of radical surgery -- they have a victim mentality and have been calling their MU's "old" and "aging" since they were 25 years old.
"Rather than look for an orphan, the LIRR probably should fix the damaged car and put it back into service. And if you say that's impossible, that the damage is too severe, I have a very simple and brief response: 4461."
We don't think it's impossible, rather just not worth it. That car was permanently retired at Hewlett that day. M-1s with less body damage are awaiting scrapping or have been scrapped. A while back, I saw a slide of an M-3 in Sunnyside yard along with some M-1s being sent out for scrapping. The funny part is this M-3 had no fire or collision damage, yet it was scrapped. The M-3 had blue bands all around and no third headlight on top.
The LIRR probably doesn't thik like the TA in regards to #4461. Who knows, maybe there is an orphaned compatible mate sitting idle waiting for a mate to return both cars to service. I wouldn't hold my breath seeing that wrecked car repaired and returned to service.
Bill "Newkirk"
"Rather than look for an orphan, the LIRR probably should fix the damaged car and put it back into service. And if you say that's impossible, that the damage is too severe, I have a very simple and brief response: 4461."
We don't think it's impossible, rather just not worth it. That car was permanently retired at Hewlett that day. M-1s with less body damage are awaiting scrapping or have been scrapped. A while back, I saw a slide of an M-3 in Sunnyside yard along with some M-1s being sent out for scrapping. The funny part is this M-3 had no fire or collision damage, yet it was scrapped. The M-3 had blue bands all around and no third headlight on top.
The LIRR probably doesn't thik like the TA in regards to #4461. Who knows, maybe there is an orphaned compatible mate sitting idle waiting for a mate to return both cars to service. I wouldn't hold my breath seeing that wrecked car repaired and returned to service.
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh, great. Any idea of when service will be restored?
For the first time in ages, I was planning on going to Woodmere tomorrow morning via LIRR. I guess I may end up taking the A train and LI Bus instead (hey, it's a bargain). Oh well.
In service as of right now, heading south on the 2 to Flatbush. Add this to 6421-30, and we now have two sets of 142s in service. I guess they're working out the bugs on the sets.....
-Stef
Thats good news!!!! Hopefully more R142 will come out. I guess it is one trainset per week. Whats next the Yankee train 6311-6320?
Right! I saw half of the Yankee Train and half of the original set, 6301-10 combined for testing. One day, 6301-05 and 6311-15 were together, while another day 6306-10 and 6316-20 were together.
6326-35 are back on the road and also in testing.... Stay tuned.
-Stef
whats goin on with these engineers these days! especially my favorite LIRR branch!!! u know the FRA is gonna be all in this
Anyone know when service is going to be restored?
Okay, more R-62as have gone from the 6 to the 1/9. But this is just too much: 2201-2205 and 2261-2265 were running on the 5 today! They still have red stripes under the number plates and red strip maps. Why on earth would the 1 lend to the 5?!
this sucks!!! does the mta hates the 7???? do they hate the mets??? whats going on?
Well the 7 does happen to go through alot of bad neighborhoods. Maybe with the bad problem with out of control teens in that section of Queens the TA doesn't want the newer R62 cars messed up!
Huh?
The 1 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The 2 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The 3 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The 4 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The 5 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The 6 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The 7 goes through bad neighborhoods.
The shuttle went through bad neighborhoods until Disney came along.
(In fact, most of those lines go through much worse neighborhoods than the 7!)
Somehow I don't see conspiracy as easily as some.
The R62As are comming to the (7), and that's all there is to it. Either that, or they won't run the (7) at all. Those redbirds are about to go, ya know. By some time next year (I'm guessing on the time frame) the A division will consist of only R62s, R62As, R142s, and R142As.
:-) Andrew
bronx and brooklyn have worse places than queens and thay are giving them r142's !!
The other IRT lines like 2 and 5 do go through some really bad areas. But they also got through many good ones.
All 18 Queens stops on the 7 line are in not so desirable areas.
There are only 3 stops in Manhattan, thus the line serves mainly people traveling to/from Queens.
The 2 line, on the other hand, is much longer, and serves nearly 35 stations in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and upper Manhattan. Now having a lack of knowledge of these areas, it would be unfair to say all those stops are in not so desirable areas. The 2 has 10 stops in Manhattan in well off areas.
The 6 line has 24 stops in fairly desirable areas in northeast Bronx and Manhattan. It has 15 stops in less desirable areas in the Bronx and upper Manhattan.
So the ratios for the 7 line are 18 to 3 stops in favor of bad areas.
So just 14% of the 7 line traverses through decent areas (all in Manhattan) and is NOT used as a trunk line within Manhattan like the 2 and 6.
The 2 like has 35 to 10 stops in favor of questionable areas. 22% of the 2 goes through relatively safe areas (probably more since my knowledge of Bronx is sketchy).
The 6 line a majority of it's line in fairly safe areas, that's 24 out of near 40. 60% of the 6 goes through relatively good areas.
Now all this research is totally unscientific, maybe biased, but is my explanation as to why the MTA won't stick brand new cars on the 7.
So the 2 and 6 lines are getting rid of the redbirds because these lines probably have less of a problem with grafitti and vandalism than the 7, and also are major trunk lines in Manhattan used by tourists (they want NYC to look better to tourists and the execs). Meanwhile tourists and execs rarely ride the 7, which is not a trunk line in Manhattan and has a major vandalism problem (the windows on the 7 redbirds are more scratched up than the ones elsewhere in the IRT). Also the litter on the 7 is the worst. The MTA doesn't want to but brand new cars on a line that sees lots of high school youths and vandalism.
While it was in the past the 7 line saw new cars first, that part of Queens was a different place then. Many areas such as Woodside, Elmhurst, and Flushing to name a few were much safer, and much better off than they are now. It was alot more residential, and middle class. Compare that to today.
So what the MTA is doing may be unfair, by keeping the Redbirds on the 7 and actually dumping ones that were displaced by R142's on the mainline to Corona. But they are doing it for a reason. And add to that the 7 is a short line, they figure they'd stick the oldest cars on the shortest lines, because it is less wear and tear. The last of the LI Bus Gilligs ran on short routes like the Hub shuttle, N57 and N58 routes.
But lastly on a positive note, 7 riders will be the last to enjoy the railfan window. :-)
Is sea cliff so good John?
Try taking the LIRR and shut your trap. I think that the parts of queens you are talking about and so love to bash are much better then a lot of places in the city. The other lines you mention pass through some high crime area too. Change your handle while your at it. What a loser.
i could find soo many things wrong with your "comparison" at a later tie i will address them, obviously you dont know anything about demographics or realestate value
This post has to be one of the biggest pieces of garbage that I've ever seen.
Where's Follo when you need him?
do you see how soo many people agree? why post when you dont know.
Well I wuz just wondering why the MTA puts the oldest cars on the 7.
These were just ideas, hypothesis,etc. I don't believe there's definate proof of any of them (bad areas,etc). Personally I don't like many of the areas on the 7, but that's just my opinion respect it.
Hey the 7 is still one of my favorite lines, I just don't care for many of the places along it. Why is it no one is allowed to bash the 7 without getting flamed out?
Just pointing out observations. From what I've seen the windows on the 7 trains are the most scratched up. The neighborhoods such as Woodside, L.I.C., Jackson heights, Corona and Flushing aren't the greatest places. Hey that's just my opinion. Just like some people like Sea Cliff while I don't. They have a right to like it, I have a right to dislike it.
BTW if you want Radio Shack forget about Flushing, that one closed. And Wendy's is becoming some low end flea market. Just thought I'd let you all know. I think they'dve been better off putting a new subway entrance where Wendy's was that the stuff they're putting in there now. The Queens savings bank is also one of those fly by night operations. Flushing....to Americanized to be a Chinatown....to crappy to be a decent downtown.
BTW what are they building near where the 7 enters the tunnel below Roosevelt ave, it looks like some kinda of roof or something. Are they putting a new tower there?
Woodside, L.I.C., Jackson heights, Corona and Flushing
For the past few years BEIEVE IT OR NOT, real estate prices have gone up there, not because of general market values but because of desire to purchase in those neighborhoods, with the exception of LIC which really remained the same. woodside and rosevelt ave in general is a great shopping under el street, especially under 71st, jackson heights is also a mini indian, matter of fact mini everyone neighborhood, some good gold can be aquired there, almost as cheap as chinatown, diverse neighborhoods that are moderately safe and convenient and DIVERSE is what the 7 and QUEENS in general is about, it is the only borough where there isnt specifically any one type of people but just a mix of all. I dont know what this board has against flushing, it seems you people just dont have the facts
My sources include several real estate agents who are friends of my family.
>>> I don't know what this board has against flushing, it seems you people just don't have the facts <<<
Who are the "you people" you are referring to? What is your basis for implying that this board has something against Flushing? Surely it is something more than one individual expressing his opinion. If that were the sole criterion, I would have concluded long ago that this board favors the scum who are criminal graffiti vandals.
Tom
Well I wuz just wondering why the MTA puts the oldest cars on the 7.
These were just ideas, hypothesis,etc
Don't post your hypotheses until you can prove them. The whole point of a hypothesis is so you know what to prove in an experiment.
You're hypotheses are just as valid as those of Nazi Germany.
Bottom line is that you are thinking age, while the TA is thinking reliability.
Answer this question John: Would you rather have R-33/36's that are very reliable, or R-anythings that have frequent problems?
I'd rather go with the reliable train, of course. But my guess is maybe the TA is keeping the last of the Redbirds on the 7 because it's the shortest IRT line (leaving out the shuttle) and that means the least amount of wear and tear. The last Gilligs at LI Bus were run on short routes, like the N57 and N58 and the Hub shuttle routes.
But there's a difference there. The Gilligs were on the short routes because they were falling apart, and you felt EVERY pothole.
The redbirds are on the 7 because that's what they have had for the past 37 years.
I'll admit a Redbird feels like an R142 compared to an old Gillig phantom.
The other IRT lines like 2 and 5 do go through some really bad areas. But they also got through many good ones.
All 18 Queens stops on the 7 line are in not so desirable areas.
I'd say that none of the 7's stops in Queens are in particularly bad areas. Just going by 'hoods traversed, it's probably the safest of all lines.
"All 18 Queens stops on the 7 line are in not so desirable areas. "
Not so desirable and "bad" areas are two different things. Not desirable means not great. Well I guess I just have a different way of seeing things. Compared to neighborhoods considered in the middle in terms of safety, such as Bayside and Rego Park, Jackson heights and Flushing aren't so great.
I don't have as much of a fear walking anywhere in Jackson Heights, Corona, Woodside, LIC, Sunnyside, or Flushing at 2:00 in the morning as I do walking through New Lots, East New York, Bathgate, Hunts Point, Bushwick, or some places in Staten Island at NOON.
And I have done most of these.
The difference is that most of the former are either industrial, or working class neighborhoods that cosmetically have seen better days. The latter are well, let's just say, fuhgeddaboudit.
Heck, Staten Island at ANY time is frightening enough! :)
CUT it out
>>> Not desirable means not great. Well I guess I just have a different way of seeing things. <<<
John;
With your fetish for "mystical" girls, it is not difficult to imagine that your way of seeing things equates less desirable neighborhoods with minority and immigrant populations. That could severely limit your vision.
Tom
I know where "mystical" girls are and the ones in Flushing are just too Americanized. Maybe not all, but most are that way. In Chinatown and Brooklyn the girls are cuter and less Americanized, thus much more "mystical" than most of what you'll see in Flushing.
That's why i usually don't see them on the 7 train. Which line has the most mystical girls. Probably the B and N lines (especially the N). So the Sea Beach is much more mystical than the 7.
My favorite parts of Manhattan are immigrant areas, same goes for Brooklyn. In fact when I go to Manhattan I usually just go to Chinatown, and not the touristy parts, under the bridge on East Broadway is my favorite mystical spot.
I also like 8th ave in Sunset Park too. If the immigrants in Flushing were less Americanized maybe I wouldn't dislike it so much, but they copy white people so much it disgusts me.
They even have cell phones and no manners just like rude LIRR commuters. If I want to really go to a chinese community I'll go to Chinatown, I have no use for the "fake" Chinatown Flushing is.
I get pushed and shoved in Flushing more than anywhere else in the city, people are so rude I can't even enjoy the 7 anymore. People "steal" the railfan window by walking up while I'm at it and with no "excuse me" they just push me aside. The 7 is the rudest train there is in the system. Today one guy literally pushed me out of the way while I was at the window. I seem to only get this type of behavior on the 7 train. Plus the railfan window is so stratched up you can't even see out properly. Much worse than the mainline Redbirds.
My favorite parts of Manhattan are immigrant areas, same goes for Brooklyn. In fact when I go to Manhattan I usually just go to Chinatown, and not the touristy parts, under the bridge on East Broadway is my favorite mystical spot.
I also like 8th ave in Sunset Park too. If the immigrants in Flushing were less Americanized maybe I wouldn't dislike it so much, but they copy white people so much it disgusts me.
You can't realistically expect immigrants from China (or anywhere else) to stick to their old country's ways indefinitely after coming to America. Immigration has been followed by assimilation for generations and by people from all different countries. The immigrants themselves may be slow to begin speaking English and adopting American ways, but their children or at least grandchildren eventually will make the switch. That's probably what you're seeing in Flushing - people adopting American lifestyles and attitudes.
And no cute and mystical girls for me. :-(
I'm starting to think I may have to go to mainland China to find that mystical girl. Urghh love is so unfair, I betcha if I was 6 foot 1 I'd have a girlfriend by now. Because in America you gotta be TALL to get love.
Well at least trains don't care how tall I am (except for those high cab view windows on the R62's). Too bad I just couldn't marry a train.
I've been given the "too short" look by women more times than every subway line in the system.
Because in America you gotta be TALL to get love.
No, you gotta have a JOB to get love.
Either way it's unfair.
Either way it's unfair.
It's unfair that you should pull your weight in society instead of being a parasite and do nothing except complain about it?
The truth hurts
But in the Worker's Paradise people still have to work. I'm sure you agree that anything they do there is way superior to our way of doing things.
What's so unfair about getting a job? It only allows you to lead a better life. No girl is willing to support a guy who railfans for a living. Do you have any job skills? If not, you should start off working at McDonald's (or, in your case, Wendy's) or a grocery store. I started off bagging groceries at Kroger, after some experice there, I went on to better jobs, eventually making $600 a week, about 3 years after my first job. I'm going through college now to make even more money as a civil engineer, and I'm dirt poor at the moment because I work at my college library, but the payoff is gonna be nice. It's not hard to find a job that pays well, you just gotta have the will and patience to do what it takes to find it.
Well I'd be working more if I lived in a better location. I want to work, heck I'd be looking for a computer/tech job if I didn't have to wake up at 4 in the morning to get to work. Northern Nassau does not have a good job base due to NIMBY's against commercial development. It is isolated here, part of reason I bitch about it constantly is because I want to work, but I find it hard to fit in with terrible transit here. But I haven't given up.
Right now I'm looking for something part-time, and I'm gonna start looking soon, something like 3 days a week 8 hours a day.
Of course being a train operator would be really cool, but I'll admit while it looks like fun it must be a very hard job. I especially feel for those T/O's who operate the Redbirds in those claustrophobic cabs.
And from what I know LIRR engineers have to get a ton of training due to FRA regs. Still the railfan in me dreams of being behind the controls.
Complain, complain, complain. STOP BITCHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>I want to work, heck I'd be looking for a computer/tech job if I didn't have to wake up at 4 in the morning to get to work.
I go to sleep at 8 PM, and wake up at 3:45 AM sometimes to get to work. If I can do it, then so can you.
>>>Northern Nassau does not have a good job base due to NIMBY's against commercial development. It is isolated here, part of reason I bitch about it constantly is because I want to work, but I find it hard to fit in with terrible transit here
MOVE! Nothing's keeping you in that hellhole called Sea Cliff is there? And if there is, ever consider a used car??? Wow, it makes me wonder why people living in Port Jefferson and Patchogue even bother taking the train into the city to work with THEIR terrible transit situation.
>>>Of course being a train operator would be really cool,
Have you taken any civil service tests? No? Then keep dreaming.
Geez, all you do is whine & complain. Ever since I started posting here, I RARELY (if ever) hear anything positive coming from you. All I hear is the "woe is me" spiel. If it's not the Mexicans on the N21, then it's how expensive Wendy's is, blah, blah, blah, etc.
Do something with your life and get the ball rolling man. Do I have to come out there and have a mystical girl launch her foot up your ass to get going?
Man.
If I do not start hearing some positive things from you, then I'm gonna come out to Sea Cliff (by public transportation), take your computer, and fling it off the roof of your house.
Because in America you gotta be TALL to get love.
Then how are all these short genes propogating then? alcohol?
"Too bad I just couldn't marry a train. "
Umm, do you need a number for a good therapist? I got one
>>> Too bad I just couldn't marry a train. <<<
Please don't try to do that. The area at the railfan window is messy enough as it is. :-)
Tom
Actually the book "Reconstructing Chinatown" describes the NYC Chinese communities the best. Chinatown gets the newer arrivals and Chinese who are more traditional while Flushing sees upper-middle or yuppie class proffessionals, mainly from Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Sunset Park also has lower wage working class like Chinatown, so no wonder I like that section too.
I rarely find any Mainland China music in Flushing but have no problem in Chinatown. Yuppies and me don't mix, I'm the R32 and they are the Hippos. I'd rather hang with my alert and speedy crowd, than some slow Hippo that is using 1/2 it's power for the cell-phone.
Hippos think they're so fancy with their shiny interior but I'll just them!
Actually the book "Reconstructing Chinatown" describes the NYC Chinese communities the best. Chinatown gets the newer arrivals and Chinese who are more traditional while Flushing sees upper-middle or yuppie class proffessionals, mainly from Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Sunset Park also has lower wage working class like Chinatown, so no wonder I like that section too.
I rarely find any Mainland China music in Flushing but have no problem in Chinatown. Yuppies and me don't mix, I'm the R32 and they are the Hippos. I'd rather hang with my alert and speedy crowd, than some slow Hippo that is using 1/2 it's power for the cell-phone.
Hippos think they're so fancy with their shiny interior but I'll just dust them!
Not so desirable and "bad" areas are two different things. Not desirable means not great. Well I guess I just have a different way of seeing things. Compared to neighborhoods considered in the middle in terms of safety, such as Bayside and Rego Park, Jackson heights and Flushing aren't so great.
By your logic, only Beverly Hills would be a desirable neighborhood.
And you've time after time decried yuppies in their Mercedes and their luxury homes. Of course, when there's a neighborhood without Mercedes and luxury homes, it's not desirable.
What a hypocrite.
I don't see any Mercedes in Rego Park. Nor do I in Wantagh, Levittown, or Bellmore. The definition of "middle" class can vary among people I guess.
You already said that ReGo Park is not the most desirable neighborhood. Make up your hypocritic mind!
And I don't care about the suburbs, they can all go to hell.
Q, i respect your way at looking at things but you must open your mind more often. you will see that even though places don't seem great or bad to you, if you go into areas that you just mentioned, you will see that they are high class and safe. you will see what i mean.
You've done it now.
I don't live in NYC of course, but from what I've heard, most of the stuff you've posted is the exact opposite of what they've told me. They say the're only a FEW parts of Queens you don't want to go to, but most of the other stuff is just tourist stereotyping.
Of course since you live there, I don't understand how you're accepting all of that as truth. You're perhaps just a paranoid person. In that case I suggest you just take the bus everywhere you go.
Also, you seem to have a problem saying the wrong things on here (like I'm one to be talking). But bashing neighborhoods is just one of those things you just don't do. You can say, I BELIEVE that area is not as well off as this one, but you say Flushing is bad and Queens is a wasteland (yep, you said that once) and etc. etc. Some people live in those wasteland, people on here in fact. So just show a little respect, kay?
In my days in the city, it was the BUSSES we were afraid of riding on, not the trains. ;)
I'm not afraid to take the 7 or most of the subway lines at all (well maybe late at night). All this started from a simple observation that the 7 line cars get vandalized alot compared to other lines and that the neighborhoods along the line aren't the greatest. That's not saying they are dangerous, they just aren't the greatest neighborhoods. I'm not the only one. Radio Shack, Wendy's, Roosevelt Diner, among many other establishments see what's going on. And I don't like shopping in fly by night flea markets. I'm not saying the neighorhoods are unsafe, what I am saying is they have a pretty tough and gritty appearance. Definately not a welcoming place to be. I don't have to like Flushing at all, and I don't. And as far as my observations (at least with Flushing) Queens Courier had an article on the abandonment of Flushing by businesses a few weeks ago. I have the article.
The B trains get vandalized heavily, but you wouldn't call Bensonhurst and the Upper West Side ghettos now would you?
If the line goes through a heavy school district, it gets vandalized more. It has nothing to do with the neighborhood that it goes through.
Example: The 7 and the B get a lot of scratchitti, but the C which goes through some extremely depressed areas sees just an average amount.
You're right. The B can get vandalized alot as well. Those shiny interiors of the R68's don't help. I'm assuming the W will use R68's as well.
You've assumed correctly. But it'll be R68A's (same thing just about).
Not to be mean about it, but I'm afraid your take on these Queens neighborhoods is almost all wrong.
Really The only Queens IRT stations in iffy neighborhoods are Hunterspoint Ave (only bad at night, mainly because it's industrial thus deserted), Queensboro Plaza (again at night, because of the hookers) Shea Stadium when there's no game, and maybe one or two parts of Corona. Nearly the entire 7 line is perfectly safe. These neighborhoods aren't as glamourous as Manhattan, but in their own uniquely New York City way they are vibrant and varried and worth visiting.
For lousy Queens neighborhoods, see the E/J/Z and maybe the A. For really lousy neighborhoods served by the IRT, see any line in the Bronx except the 1/9, though not every neighborhood for any of those lines.
:-) Andrew
Never meant to give the impression that the 7 goes through the WORST areas in NYC, but in my opinion the neighborhoods aren't the greatest.
Well I never said the 7 is a DANGEROUS line to take, I'm just saying that petty grime (grafitti, vandalism) seems pretty common along the line.
>>>For lousy Queens neighborhoods, see the E/J/Z
I wouldn't throw the E into that equation. Forest Hills and Kew Gardens don't quite fit the bill of "lousy".
For lousy Queens neighborhoods, see the E/J/Z
I wouldn't throw the E into that equation. Forest Hills and Kew Gardens don't quite fit the bill of "lousy".
Or even the J/Z, for that matter. Most of the areas they serve seem working class, not particularly affluent but not dangerous or lousy either.
Far Rockaway is probably the worst subway-served Queens neighborhood.
>>>Far Rockaway is probably the worst subway-served Queens neighborhood.
Nothing probably about it. That joint is a pit.
There's a nice neighborhood along Mott Avenue as one goes towards Bayswater State Park.
The areas about a half mile west of the Rockaway Park Station, such as Belle Harbor and Neponsit are quite nice too.
I like Rockaway Park alot. The boardwalk and town is real nice, it feels sorta like Long Beach. The subway terminal looks more like an LIRR terminal, well because it once was. The building is especially quaint.
[re quality of Far Rockaway]
There's a nice neighborhood along Mott Avenue as one goes towards Bayswater State Park.
And the Orthodox Jewish section near the Nassau line's also quite nice. But most of Far Rockaway is pretty dreary, to say the very least, and that definitely includes the areas around the A train and LIRR terminals.
The E goes through better neighborhoods than the 7.
Yeah the J/Z can go through som tough hoods, however Woodhaven seemed fairly good when I passed though. Lot cleaner than Flushing that's for sure.
I meant South Jamaica.
:-) Andrew
According to your post, it is utter B.S. all that stuff you have said about undesirable areas is so ignorant. i assume you don't live in New York city and never set your foot down on terrain to experience the neighborhoods. Your saying that woodside wasn't safer as back the day? you're dead wrong. Woodside is one of the safest areas in Queens. you just look at all the graffitti on the roof tops and consider it undesirable. the 7 goes through many desirable areas. which all are Including Flushing, Long Island City and Corona. As far as Graffitti problem, all the ligns have a scratched up window problem. including graffitti problem. when was the last time you rode every line? you need to get out more often and stop using the typical American Pre- judgement of everything.
KHI, John (Qtraindash7) lives on LI but at age 25 is unemployed and spends his time riding the trains. He just has an attitude, plus an apparant fetish for Asian women, who I doubt would give him the time of day let along anything else. I've met him (on a SubTalk field trip) and have to say that he's a basically nice person who simply tends to view the world in a vastly different way than most of the rest of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the encouragement. I should've take growth hormone a long time ago!
" He just has an attitude, plus an apparant fetish for Asian women, who I doubt would give him the time of day let along anything else. "
So what are you saying? I'm not gonna find that mystical girl? Damn I should've taken that growth hormone when I was a kid.
Most likely you are right, and I don't think the 7 goes through dangerous areas. But there are clearly many eyesores around, especially all that rooftop grafitti. How do they even get up there and do their "work"?
We have our ways, we have our ways, amazing isn't it? Thats exactly the point
You are all somewhat quick to go bashing generalities.
Being a regular 7 train rider, I can vouch for Qtraindash7's opinions on the line. It is indeed more scratched up than the others, as well as having a greater litter problem; I'm more likely to have to knock a newspaper off of my seat on the 7 than on the 6 or the R.
The neighborhoods that the 7 passes through (LIC, Sunnyside, Woodside, Jackson Heights, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing) do have very nice sections. I live in Jackson Heights and my area is very nice, quiet and clean. As you walk south from Northern Blvd, however, the neighborhood gets dirtier, more crowded and seedier. Under the el, Roosevelt Ave. is dark and dirty from the pigeons and the shops, while they may offer a good value, do not project the image of clean frendliness that shops elsewhere do. Add to that the greater frequency of drunks and the homeless and you have a recipie for what was so callously referred to as a "bad neighborhood."
Think before you attack.
Dan
I do not believe the # 7 train will be replaced by the r-62s !! unless some else out there with "PROFF"
can post thier reliable proven source that this is so!!
Your proof is this: The redbirds, however venerable, cannot last forever. The laws of physics (which state quite explicitly that no train made entirely of rust can remain in revenue service for very long) will not allow it. The logical way to replace the redbirds would be to bring the only other A division cars that exist and can be serviced at Corona Yard, these being the R-62s. There. Proof.
Dan
He is not asking for proof, he is asking for proff.
I think I'm all out of proff. I'm going to the store tomorrow, I'll pick up some extra.
Dan
Bring 100-proff. Nothing better than being drunk when talking to Salaam.
I do not drink as for the rest of your post ""OINK" " OINK"
also i do not eat PORK is is unhealthy & not fit to eat !!! LOL !!!
I do not drink as for the rest of your post ""OINK" " OINK"
also i do not eat PORK it is unhealthy & not fit to eat !!! LOL !!!
do you ride the #7 ??
ok
It's more likely that the #7 will operate with R-62As. Now - as for proff, what would you consider a reliable proven source?
ok !... as i said go ahead make my day!!
As I stated about a month ago Livonia was short of cars so 240th "loaned" them 40 cars. Now that the 142's are being put into service on the Pelham line 240th is getting 40 cars from Westchester yard and the MTA plans on running 10 car trains on the 3. The 5 is getting some of the 62A's for their shuttle service until the 142A's go into service on the Dyre line. When those lines get their allotment of cars then the 7 will begin receiving the 62A's. This was told to me by the RCI at Van Cortlandt.
Ah, now there is a reliable source of information. The RCI told you!!!! Perhaps I missed something but the last time I looked. RCIs were hourly employees - just like you. They are not privy to any special information from management. As it happens, the R-62As will be moved to the 7 line but my sources are far more credible than a junior RCI.
Here's hoping the RCI's don't get a lecture for that ... if it weren't for some loose lips here and there, we wouldn't know the R1/9's had left the railroad. :)
It's not a question of loose lips. The TA runs on paper and rumors. It's just becoming a little disconcerting to see what is being passed off here as facts. People do a dis-service to their fellow subtalkers when they pass off conjecture as facts. Unfortunately, some can't tell the difference.
People do a dis-service to their fellow subtalkers when they pass off conjecture as facts.
Hearsay and conjecture are KINDS of evidence, your honor.
That's why there are already 20 cars from Westchester yard at 240th now. There are also scheduled lay-ups at the East for the Lenox line starting next pick, and as we all know us hourly employees cannot know what is going on in the system we're all just a bunch of lemmings.
Well the 7 does happen to go through alot of bad neighborhoods.
What bad neighborhoods does the 7 go through? I can see someplace industrial like Long Island City at night might be perceived as bad, but all of the remaining residential communities on the line are filled with hard-working immigrants.
If there's any street under an el I wouldn't have any qualms about walking through at night, it's Roosevelt Avenue.
Maybe with the bad problem with out of control teens in that section of Queens the TA doesn't want the newer R62 cars messed up!
You posted that knowing that I would read it and give you hell. In any case, immigrant children tend to be the most well behaved. Especially Chinese immigrants. It's the suburban kids that tend to commit the petty crimes like vandalism. I can't imagine how bored they must be in their plastic wasteland.
Maybe you should watch out for any kids riding the N21 with you.
It seems that the transformation looks like Grand Central Shuttle. It used to be provided by Pelham R62As, and then was provided by Livonia R62As.
Chaohwa
This was discussed before.
The 2 is short of cars so it borrows from the 5. In turn, the 5 borrows from the 1 to make up for the losses to the 2.
That set been on the 5 for about a month now. Before that another VC set was on the 5.
My sympathies to the long suffering 'H' track fans. Due to circumstances beyond our control, the Manhattan Bridge flip, regularly scheduled for July 1st. has been postponed. The next regularly scheduled Manhattan Bridge flip will be on July 22nd. Sorry 'H' track fans for this disappointment.
Is this being delayed while they try to figure out how to mollify the Chinese community? Or is there a construction reason for the delay?
It would seem to be a contractor that asked for the delay. I'm not sure if the south side isn't ready or they are not ready to start on te north.
I guess some folks will breath alot easier for a little while longer.
I think it's becouse the C/R had to pick again because of the problem with the first one. I think the TA did not let a C/R pick a platform job becouse he is on light duty becouse a medical. I not shore if this is right it's just what I heard.
Robert
I think this is coincidental. However, this may not bode well for the Conductors. What do you think the TAs response will be when a restricted C/R picks a job that they can't work?
The CR pick is SUPPOSED to be over before the end of June; tentatively, the A Div is scheduled to start picking July 2.
As for restricted CRs and TOs picking, as long as a job is available that they can work, they are supposed to be able to pick it. There is no reason why a restricted CR cannot work a platform job; however, it seems that's what they tried to do here. The CR grieved it, the TA lost and the CRs all get to repick.
Correct. The only difference is all conductors jobs are open during the pick process while 20% of switching jobs are set aside for restricted T/O's whose seniority would prevent them from picking switching.
This sucks! It would've been a perfect birthday present! Now it's even further from June 28!
Will they do any T/O familiarizing, or will the T/Os have to trust the tower the first few days?
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooo.
Service on the Long Island Rail Road's Far Rockaway Branch has been suspended as the result of an accident. Limited substitute busing is being provided from Valley Stream to Far Rockaway. As another alternative, LIRR tickets are being honored on the N-32 bus from the Lynbrook train station.
Sorce. MTA's Website.
www.mta.nyc.ny.us
I heard that as of 10:00 PM Last Night. The LIRR Far Rockaway service is back to normal. Also from my B/O that I have this morning. She was at Lynbrook last night and she saw ALOT of people and ALOT of Buses. Same thing at Hewlett. Vallley stream I think the same thing with Lynbrook.
An "UPDATE!!" 21 hours after the fact.
How trains developed into powerful war machines,altering how,when, where and why battles were fought. (t.v.) guide.
STORY about todays rush hour accident.
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS I mean shorthly before rush hour.
Peace,
ANDEE
I rode Acela Express 2171 BOS-NYP today. Three hours, thirty-one minutes. About 40% full. Everything worked. Power car was 2035. This is actually getting routine!
I saw trainset 2035-2039 as Train #2153 to DC yesterday. From Todd's info, 2035-2039 had to run as Train #2150 from DC to Boston this morning.
If the dispatchment logic is right, 2035-2039 will run as Train #2190 from NY to Boston tomorrow morning, and then as Train #2175 to DC tomorrow evening.
Chaohwa
Another question for Todd. Is 2035 at the front of the trainset or at the rear of the trainset?
Chaohwa
It was at the rear (north end); I did not have a chance to get up to the front to see the power car... but the trainsets are "fixed" so it shouldn't have changed!
As I asked Nick, were the automated announcements working (no human announcing the next stop and so on)?
The conductor announced the upcoming station stops, but the automated announcements worked with the door closings.
It didn't even affect your voice! You sounded great at 5:08 this
morning on traffic and weather together!!!
Thanks, but I am really feeling it now. Got only five hours of sleep. But that's OK.. I can take a quick nap before I take the LIRR out to Roslyn this afternoon for an appointment.
I'm looking forward to the AE ride home tomorrow morning; it will be interesting to see what kind of crowd spends the extra money over Acela Regionals.
BNSF is quietly offering a service to anyone who wants to ship a car long distance. They will back-haul it on an otherwise empty autorack.
CarsOnTrack website
Interesting... I just checked haulage from AZ to NJ and a standard vehicle ships, door-to-door, for $1250. I couldn't figure out how to ship terminal-to-terminal, at least via the website. I'm considering doing some car shopping while in AZ next March - a 1960 Edsel would do nicely, although a '58 Packard wagon or a '56 Desoto would also get my attention... nice and rust-free, please.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bob, you are a salvation, I was thinking of something like this to send my car to Southern California, they want $1,300 which isn't unreasonable, considering the money I would save on fuel and hotels and rental cars while I'm back in California.
Thank you!
I had a real railfan treat this evening around 7:00.I went to the 241th street station, to do some railfanning.When I got there there were two trains, one was a R-142, the other an old R-28. we were held up because a lighting fixture fell on the R-28. The T/O put the fixture in a cab in the back of the first car, off we went at 238th street, I saw a R-33, around Gun Hill Road a R-62 Woodlawn train was pulling in on the middle track as we left Gun Hill Road, around Allerton Avenue another R-142 was leaving the station, Pelham Parkway an R-62A from Lenox Avenue on the middle track, heading north.Got down to East 180th street saw an R-36WF train heading towards Dyre Avenue.WE left East 180th street, I saw a Pelham R-62A, going towards Dyre Avenue this train was right behind the R-36WF. It was cool seeing all types of IRT equipment between 241st street and East 180th. I should brought my camera.
Sounds great especially in such a short distance. Back in the late 60's and thru the 70"s you'd sometimes see all types of equipment in one train. OK, stretch it a little and count R12 and l4 the same, married pairs (26-33), R17,21,22, the same. But you'd come close! The 1,2,3,4,5 had some real mixups of car types.
if you look today, you'll see them on the 6 lexington ave local.
I saw almost all the same equipment today. While waiting for the 6 at 33rd, I saw a SB 5 R62A. Then about 5 seconds later, another 5 train, going NB was using Pelham cars (with the stickers still on). I think it was a R36WF set, but I'm not 100% sure. Then I got on a R142A 6 train. Pretty cool!
ML R-36s 9526-9535 have safely arrived to the 7 line as of yesterday????? Already this consist is MIXED WITH GE R36s: 9528 9529 9526 9527 9708 9709 9654 9655 9327 9531 9530. All R 36s from pelham will be going to the 7 sadly except for 4 cars 9486 9487 and 9540 9541.:0( Hopefully soon 9760-9769 will make their way back home from the 2 line.
yep ! the redbirds are going to make thier last stand on tyhe flushing # 7 line !! thanks for the information!!
7 just keep on getting more redbirds but no r62's
"sadly except for 4 cars 9486 9487 and 9540 9541.:"
Are these cars wrecks or burned up ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Last Friday I rode the Acela Express from Philly to Boston and back to NYC (finished on the 7pm Clocker). The ride finished a whirlwind visit to the East for me starting with my Acela/NEC layout set up at the East Penn Traction meet. The following Wednesday the layout was displayed at the 30th Street Amtrak Station in Philadelphia, followed by a cameo appearance on QVC Train Collector's Junction on Thursday.
I rode the original #2150 NB and returned on the #2171. The announcements were all human; the conductor even designated which crew members should make which announcements. I hung out mainly in the Cafe car where the digital readout was. The music on one trip was from personal CDs and I must admit the choices were excellent. The only trouble was a door that wouldn't lock up after a station stop. Being a former motorman, I knew something was amiss when after a station stop, we slowly rolled back when the brakes were released. The brakes were reapplied while trouble shooting went on.
Both trips were smooth and on time (within the on time window. I noted the long section gaps (the air conditioning drops out). If you watch for it, you can notice the tilt. The toilets' flush would make Al Bundy on "Married With..."beam with pride.
The only downside was the faucet water..it tasted weird. Being a modeler, I was keenly interested in the train consist. Both trains and a third at BWI station had the First Class car at the rear. The first, fourth and fifth cars had the "A" end forward, except 2171 which had the fifth car reversed. I still don't know if trainsets are turned to position the First Class car. A crew member said that sometimes the First Class car is up front.
Pics and descripts are on my website, Acela Modelling http://community.webtv.net/acelatrains
Now if I could just get an ETT and find out who at Amtrak would have to sign off on a cab ride on the Express.
David Harrison
>>>The only downside was the faucet water
Of course it tasted weird, it's NON-POTABLE water. You're lucky that you're not crapping in your pants right about now.
Seven Will make it to the R-62s AGAIN before they go flushing, I've been couped up way too long.
P.S. This is not a good thing.
Because of announced residual delays on the Far Rock LIRR line this morning, I decided to retrace the steps of the old LIRR Jamaica Bay branch and take the A from Far Rock to downtown Manhattan. Here are my observations:
(1) There is absolutely no trace of the tracks or trackways that once connected the Inwood LIRR station to the Far Rockaway "A" stop, which once was the LIRR Far Rock station. Its amazing that a connection ever existed - houses and stores line the area between the two stations.
(2) I can see why the Jamaica Bay route of the LIRR Far Rock line took longer to get to Penn/Flatbush Avenue than the eastern "land" route. Boy, there are a lot of stops between Far Rockaway and Howard Beach, and from what I've read, there were even more stops on the line in the LIRR days (like Goose Creek, The Raunt and Hamilton Beach) than there are now. Add to that the Ozone Park, et al stops and you have a pretty long trip.
(3) There is no hint of LIRR operation of the line between Far Rock and Howard Beach except for faded lettering on one station near Hammel's Wye that reads "Substation No. [illegible] Long Island Rail Road."
(4) From what I could see of the abandoned LIRR trackage that connects with the A line at or about Howard Beach, both the trackage and the elevated structure that it rests look to be in surprisingly good shape, considering that they haven't been used in half a century. Seems to me that this trackage could have been used for a JFK-Penn Station train. Why is this old, but obviously useful transit facility being so badly wasted?
(5) The trip from Cedarhurst to Bway-Nassau Street using the LIRR-A connection took 1:20, where the usual LIRR land route-2/3 connection takes about 1:10, without delays.
I would like to comment on some of your points:
(2) The time savings to Penn Station was the part of the route that you didn't go on, that is, from the junction with the Liberty Av El to Penn Station. The Jamaica Bay route bypassed Jamaica station and joined the main line at a place known as White Pot Junction. My Dad, who used that line when it existed, said it took 40 minutes from Edgemere to Penn Station. By subway, that would be about an hour and a quarter.
(3) The station and platform designs are LIRR.
(4) This topic is addressed from time to time on this site. For more info on the abandoned portion of the line, see oldnyc.com.
Thanks. I'm familiar with that site - I've even contributed to it (I'm Mitchell E. Pak). But I've never actually traveled on the line itself.
How could it have been 40 minutes from Edgemere to Penn? If you look at the schedules printed in "Change at Ozone Park," it seems that the run took longer than that...
It could be that his memory was a little faulty. But if you look at a map, the LIRR ROW continues north/north west to the main line, and then turns directly toward Penn Station, while the subway dips relatively southward to end up in Downtown Brooklyn. The combination of extra distance and closer subway stations (even when running express on Fulton) makes the ride to Midtown significantly longer.
Perhaps. But there were a number of stops between Howard Beach and the Underjump (where I played as a kid, by the way) and again between the Underjump and Penn, none of which exist today. For example, on the Main Line, the Far Rock trains stopped at Rego Park and Grand Avenue, in addition to Woodside. The main line trains didn't stop at either Rego Park or Grand Avenue. Moreover, the section between Howard Beach and the Underjump had a number of all-train stops, such as Brooklyn Manor (which lies dormant under the J line tracks at just before 104th Street station), Parkside and Woodhaven.
There are 11 stops between Cedarhurst and Flatbush Avenue, which is my usual route. During peak hours, the train skips 4 of them (Rosedale, Laurelton, Locust Manor and Nostrand Avenue), leaving 7. The Jamaica Bay route had more than that. In addition to all of the stops between Far Rock and Beach 67th Street, it also had Goose Creek, The Raunt, Hamilton Beach and Howard Beach on the Bay route and Ozone Park, Woodhaven, et al until the Underjump. Add to that the fact that Bay route trains had to proceed slowly over the wooden trestle that ran over the Bay and the two swing bridges in place...
Forgive my ignorance, but what is an "underjump"?
:-) andrew
When a spur line meets a main line and has to cross the main line it can go over (flyover) or under (underjump). White Pot Junction was the latter kind.
But to continue the other discussion, the Jamaica Bay route only went to Penn Station as there was no connection to Flatbush Av.
I looked at lirrhistory.com and saw some old time tables. From Penn to Hamilton Beach was 31 minutes. From Edgemere to Broad Channel was about 10; from Broad Channel to Hamilton Beach is about 7 today, but figure 12 back then. This made Edgemere to Penn about 53 minutes. This could be compared with the current Far Rock to Penn, which may be shorter for all I know, but for those living along the line on the peninsula west of Far Rock, it would have paid to take the more direct route.
There was a single track going from Ozone Park to the tunnel line on Atlantic Ave, bybassing Woodhaven. I am not sure whether this connection was used for regular service. Or you could just transfer at Woodhaven to a Flatbush-bound train.
By the way, the Rockaway Line is "out of service" and not abandoned and still belongs to NYCT.
Actually, it was a double track connection with regularly scheduled service, and you can still see the the low wall where the trains entered the tunnel at Atlantic Avenue about 600 feet west of the Woodhaven station. The cut was filled in and there's a school bus parking lot there now. One time I got on the wrong train at Rockaway Park and wound up at East New York instead of Woodhaven.
My Sept. 8, 1953 LIRR timetable confirms roughly 30-31 minutes from Penn to Hamilton Beach. It's worth noting that service was very infrequent -- every 3 hours off peak and about every 60-90 minutes peak.
Also from that schedule, no trains skipped Woodhaven -- to answer a question that I think Arcady had.
Chuck
I attended a conference in Atlanta and rode MARTA to and from Hartsfield Airport.
The subway train was filled going both ways and the station was quite busy.
On my return trip to the airport, I checked my bag at the Delta counter just outside MARTA's fare-control. There were several other customers there as well. The Delta customer service agents told me that the airline was very pleased with the results it got from that "train-side" check-in station - it has diverted traffic from the main check-in area in Delta's Terminal South ticketing area and allowed bags to get to planes faster (there is a conveyor belt at the MARTA check-in area). From there passengers walk through security and get on the circulator train to get to the gates.
Having watched this work, as well as Reagan's, and having seen BART's line in progress, I predict BART will have an opportunity to prove its worth similarly. AirTrain is set up differently than the other systems; it will be interesting to see what kind of creativity the airlines at JFK use...
The next time you go to Tokyo via Narita, I suggest you use TCAT (Tokyo City Air Terminal). You'll discover that one does not need a rail infrastructure to provide center city baggage check and customs.
"The next time you go to Tokyo via Narita, I suggest you use TCAT (Tokyo City Air Terminal). You'll discover that one does
not need a rail infrastructure to provide center city baggage check and customs. "
No doubt. Any bus service in NY (including MTA) could set that up here too. My contention is that a rail service, esp. one added to an already extensive network, is far superior.
No doubt. Any bus service in NY (including MTA) could set that up here too.
The TBTA did run the East Side and West Side Airline Bus Terminals. They were a disaster. A lot can be learned from studying the TCAT operation.
My contention is that a rail service, esp. one added to an already extensive network, is far superior.
Not always. I've found that the bus via TCAT to be more convenient than than the express rail connection via the Keisei Line. I think we can agree that one would be hard pressed to find a more extensive passenger rail network than Tokyo's.
If one's sole purpose in taking a plane to Narita were to visit the zoo at Ueno Park, then I could understand that this rail link might be more convenient. My trips have been centered in downtown Tokyo or involved catching the Shinkansen from Tokyo Station. Perhaps, this explains my preference.
I've also found that on the return trip TCAT has the advantage of not subjecting the traveller the indignity of an identity check to enter the airport. :-)
"Not always. I've found that the bus via TCAT to be more convenient than than the express rail connection via the Keisei Line. I
think we can agree that one would be hard pressed to find a more extensive passenger rail network than Tokyo's."
Tokyo's rail network is impressive. As to relative convenience of bus vs. rail there, I will not object to your personal preference, and I have no idea what the riding public over there thinks or experiences, so I have no opinion about that specific situation.
If a bus service were to be initiated (or existing one overhauled), I would want the bus operator to use low-floor buses (no stairs to get on/off)with plenty of luggage racks, or to have the bus driver check your luggage and the bus co. assume responsibility to get it to the aircraft.
...I would want the bus operator to use low-floor buses (no stairs to get on/off)with plenty of luggage racks, or to have the bus driver check your luggage and the bus co. assume responsibility to get it to the aircraft.
These two objectives are contradictory. Luggage bays on buses are under the passenger compartment.
...I would want the bus operator to use low-floor buses (no stairs to get on/off)with plenty of luggage racks, or to have
the bus driver check your luggage and the bus co. assume responsibility to get it to the aircraft.
"These two objectives are contradictory. Luggage bays on buses are under the passenger compartment."
Have you ever ridden a low-floor bus? The front half is low-floor, but there are stairs leading to the rear half.
Luggage need not go into a compartment under the bus - it could also go into racks inside the passenger compartment.
I remember reading in Delta News Digest, the Delta employee mag, that more people than they expected are using the train side check-in, they are very happy about that. AirTran, Hartsfield's other hub airline, needs to put a train side check in, too. In fact, it's probably possible for the major airlines to put ticket counters there, you probably noticed the wall at the opposite side the the Delta counter, where the token machines are, it could fit 3-4 airline counters. That'd be cool.
When was the last time you were in the A-town? Did you notice the new exterior destination signs on the trains? I think almost all the trains have them installed now. They are way better than the old flipdot side signs, because they actually display the right destination. Did the token machines not work for you like everyone else? Those machines completely suck.
Yes, AirTran should do that.
I was in Atlanta in the middle of May. I noticed the new electronic signs on the trains: yellowish-green against a darker background. Excellent contrast, very readable from a distance even with my lousy glasses.
The token machine woked OK. When I lived in Atlanta for six months in '98 I never had trouble with them. But machines can be cantankerous - sensitivity set very high, so they only take new, crisp, bills. It can be very annoying.
Sub Talker, Peggy Darlington has just been contacted by the Port Authority with a request that they be able to use her page on PATH on their internal Intranet. Peggy has advised me that she granted permission if they would include a reference to www.nycsubway.org.
More publicity for the site.
Congratulations to Peggy. Strong work!
Congratulations to you, Peggy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Subwaybuff, Doug sends a congrats to Peggy Darlington.
High Fives and congrats are in order to Peggy! It's nice to hear that this site has more than the transit buffs looking at it!
Congratulations and much kudos.
I have been reading these boards and looking around the site for about two months now and have been impressed by the breadth and depth of knowledge demonstrated here.
John.
Please express my congratulations to Peggy also.
Mr t__:^)
Send an atta-girl to Peggy for me, too!
Now let's get those PATH folks to lighten up a bit regarding photography and we'll all be better off!
--mark
I got off a 2 train of redbirds at the 110th Street station. I waited for the next train downtown. As I was waiting, I saw a train of R142 cars signed up as (2). I looked into one of the cars and saw that the strip maps had a lot of lights lit up, far beyond the number that would be up for a train entering 110th Street. As I saw this, the doors facing the wall had opened. Then the lights on the strip map changed so that they showed the proper number of lights for a train at 110th Street. I looked at an interior sign. It said this:
(2) CHURCH AV NEXT
(2) TO WAKEFIELD-241 ST
(2) 116 ST NEXT
with the obligatory, yet annoying flash to blank between each reading. For a minute there, the train thought we were at Beverly Road instead of 110th Street.
The doors closed and the train left, headed for Chur-- uh, I mean 116th Street.
I then saw a downtown 2 train of redbirds pass by without stopping. I got on a 3 train with the lead car's number ending with a 7. I got a railfan window all the way to Times Square.
Sounds like another set of R142s making what they call "simulated stops." Do you remember the numbers of the cars? They might have just been delivered.
the last to do simulated stops was 6311-20, which was last thurday. this one could be a new set that came in. 6421-30 is running today on the 2 6311-20 is said to come back followed by 6321-30, 6411-20,possibly 6301-10 and a new set to come in every week since the current set is working extremely well in passenger service.
I remember seeing 6327 as one of the cars on the train.
You might have saw 6321-6330 set. You definitely saw the 6326-6330 set in "simulated stop" service, though.....
To those TOs taking the Train Dispatcher test tomorrow, lots of luck.
For those riding the IRT tomorrow: The first class from the open-competitive hits the road on their own tomorrow. One of those lucky souls has my job with the CR from Hell.
Good luck to those lucky souls, I'm STILL waiting to join them.
What! You wish the T/O's taking the test good luck but not the TW/O's?
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, but I was unaware that there were any TW/O here. Of course, good luck to them (you) and any ATDs as well.
Can somebody tell me what exactly the new train to JFK is?Is it a Light Rail or is it like the people mover like the one at Atlantas Airport?Thanks
See: jfkairtrain.com
This is to let you know that many, many people have been given mandated overtime due to the high number of employees taking the Dispatcher's Exam (B division had 4 pages of names on the assignment sheets).
Call the crew office to see if you've been signed up!
Note: This does not apply to T/O's in training (school car), nor does it apply to anyone taking the exam.
mean while they gave me Board time at 168th street. I have to be there at 10:00am.
Robert
Just curious -- does this mean that the TA can require an employee to work on a day he normally has off? Saturday is a particular issue since some employees can't work then for religious reasons. If they refuse to show up, could they be fired?
>>>>Just curious -- does this mean that the TA can require an employee to work on a day he normally has off?
Yes. But only when the TA is short-staffed such as on Saturday.
>>>>Saturday is a particular issue since some employees can't work then for religious reasons. If they refuse to show up, could they be fired?
If an employee observes a Sabbath, and it is on record with the TA, then the TA cannot assign him any duties that occur during his/her Sabbath. Also the employee cannot be disciplined in any way pertaining to this.
I guess that's good, although I'd prefer if the TA didn't have the power to unilaterally cancel its employees' plans on their days off. (I suppose the employees knew the rules when they took the job to begin with, and if they weren't happy they could have always worked for someone else.)
Can I assume that the TA's Sabbath policy also extends to religious holidays when work is also forbidden? For instance, the same people who can't work Saturdays (well, the Jews, not the Seventh Day Adventists) won't be able to work next Monday or Tuesday due to a religious holiday. (This year it just so happens to extend an already long weekend, but I assure you that's an anomaly. Shavuot always falls out precisely 50 days after Passover.)
An employee can take any religious holiday, however the TA doesn't just give him the day off. He has to take either a personal day or a vacation day.
I have no problem with that as long as the TA can't absolutely require someone to work on a holiday he can't work on.
Oh, no way the TA could do that.
I mean they could, but they'd have to dole out beaucoup $$$ in a lawsuit if they did.
Chicago Tribune: Woman fights off alleged sex assailant
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like the guy was a moron on top of being vicious. Well, you could say he got what was coming to him, I guess...
Assuming the woman's version of the story (that this was a forced sex act) is true, of course. Innocent until proven guilty.
Now this is a story with a biting moral to it. In actuality, I'm suprised it's not a more common occurance.
OUCH!! That must have hurted. If that doesn't teach him a lesson, then nothing will.
Not to be like, too graphic or anything, but I don't quite see how the woman could have gotten both of the man's ... er ... parts in her mouth at the same time. Something seems a little bit fishy about the whole affair.
OOOOOOOOOOUTCHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Imagine this subway finatics.....why do I hate new subway cars since 1971....? because no railfan window...it all started with the R-44's so Mr. Motorman could have space. I think, we have maybe 10 years left of the railfan window...all the Redbirds are gonna go soon....and the only ones left besides the redbirds are...the R-32,R-38, R-40S, R-40M and the R-42, all BMT-IND....so after the Redbirds..no more IRT railfan window.
Ever since I was a kid, I always loved looking out that window, always on a R-32...on the N...and I used to hope for it, because there are some R-46's on that line.
And might I add, after all the problems with the R-40S's.....they have the best railfan window...and thats why, I will hate in 2010, when they go, as bad as they are, what a view.
Chris
Redbirds Forever
Perhaps you should look a little harder. There are still R-62A cars that have no transverse cabs.
The other alternative is to apply to your local chapter of "The Salaam Fund". It's a sort of "Make-A-Wish" for railfans. Recently they have begun fund-raising to provide every distressed railfan with a salvaged Redbird Storm door, complete with glass & handle. To find your local chapter of "The Salaam Fund", check there website at:
http://www.letmeseetunnels.com/fund/enddoor/salaam.html
UHAH..... yo this guy is to much!!! my kids roolin on the floor over here....
Ooo! oooh! I want mine too ... does it include the parking brake handle or is that sold separately?
>>>because there are some R-46's on that line.
He meant were some R46's. So you SubTalk cops can go crawl back into your local donut shop now.
Although I find this fascination with "Railfan Windows" ludicrous, I have a bit of good news for you. According to a number of posters, the R32s will last until their 50th birthdays, which is 2014. That's a big 13 years off.
As for the Rustbirds, well, you know how I feel.
I want to know if this is really true that after the GOH of the R33/36WF did the interior doors were in orange if so when did they repainted it in red? Because thats what I saw in the movie "Someone to watch over me" I doubt that it was not only just for a quick subway scene in a movie?
I do remember seeing orange doors on the 7. It had to have been in or after 1987, I don't remember anything before age 3.
The Flushing Redbirds got their orange doors and tan walls beginning in late 1978-early 1979 when they were retrofitted with air conditioning and lost their original World's Fair color scheme, which was replaced by the MTA silver and blue exterior corporate colors. The color scheme debuted earlier on the Pelham R-33s, which were the first to get the AC retrofits.
The orange-and-tan paint was supposed to be more graffiti-proof than the original light/dark blue interiors the R-33/36WFs had, or the nightmarish pistachio green-and-gray color scheme all the mainline cars got during the original MTA paint assault between 1971-73. Obviously, the plan didn't work out as intended.
I have seen one of the MBTA Type 8's but have not seen one in motion. I seen this type 8 in the cleveland circle yard. I dont know what number it was because a work car was blocking the front.
You shoud really see the cab of a redbird it is so simple there is only Two handles to operate the car
Do redbirds have electric windshield wipers?
I remember seeing a motorman turn a lever to operate the thing. Really depressing.
Well they don't have computers when the redbirds were made.
Oh, computers existed back then, but they were bigger and slower.
No, the wiper is hand-operated. Try making a station stop in a torrential downpour - you need three hands: one on the controller, one on the brake and one on the wiper. I can't wait until the damn things are gone.
Sheesh,
Our Peter Witts (1930) have a manual wiper, a manual farebox and a Controller and a air brake handle, plus an auxiliary door control.
In a rain/snow storm in the rush hour the operator is a busy man.
Don't forget the bell, sander, and NA switch activator(at least on our Witts). The bell, or gong to give it it's proper term, and NA switch activator are both foot operated, but I can't remember how the sander is operated, so driving one of those apparantly is a real one man circus act. However, I've never driven a Peter Witt myself so I'm not speaking from direct observation from having actually done it.
I really would like to try out operating a Peter Witt at some point.
-Robert King
What are you complainnig about, those poor conductors back in
the 1930's and 1940's had to stand outside in rain, snow,biddercold ,and that summer sizzling sun,exc,exc.
Well, they improved on those cars from the 30s and 40s with what the Redbirds have. Now, they are improving what the Redbirds have with the R142. 40 years from now, they are going to improve the R142 with something else. There's a word for this, it starts with a P and ends with a rogress.
Redbird fans, read this, here's an example of me missing some old equipment that just occured to me this week:
MARTA recently replaced just about all of the exterior rollsigns and flipdot destination signs on all the cars. Fro me, those signs sucked. They never displyed the right destintaion and they were too small to be noticed. The flipdot signs would disply stuff like "???????," "jkfbnfjkvn," and "Dunwoody," no matter which line it was running on. The rollsigns actually displayed the right destination most of the time, but you really never noticed it. MARTA ended up putting cardboard signs (note the wrong destination on the rollsign) for the destination. Anyway, I hated those signs, and now they are finally replaced, but now I kind of wished I had more pictures of the old signs. All the pictures I have are put up on this site- only about 4-5 of them. That sucks.
The moral? Follow the advice of Jason, our Houtson Subtalker, and ride the redbirds as often as possible and take a shitload of pictures.
I cab complain, because at the time the Redbirds were built, the technology existed to put a motor on the wiper arm and have an electric wiper. Thems in charge back then decided to forego the expense of an electric wiper.
How about A T/O and a 12 year old kid operate the train the kid would operate the brakes and wiper while the T/O wout take control of the throttle.
What, those Redbirds have separate handles for the brake and throttle? I thought any subway car of that era would have a Cineston control. At least it would have free the other hand for the manual wiper.
Two-fisted railroading used to be the norm ... you'd use your nose (or any other handy appendage) for the wipers. :)
And don't let your left hand go limp or POOF ... nose into windshield.
Most subway cars of that era do have separate control handles in the cap for power and braking. The Cineston control wasn't adopted very widely for a very long time and I don't know why, unfortunately.
What I don't understand are the manual wipers. By the time the various redbird cars were made mechanised windshield wipers that ran on either electricity or compressed air were available, and other subway cars had them...
-Robert King
Wouldn't this have been something relatively simple to add during the Redbird GOH?
Seems to me something as "simple" as an automatic windshield wiper is pretty important for the safe operation of the train. I mean, it would be nice that the T/O can see where he/she is going :)
--Mark
Do the R-32 through 42 have automatic wipers? I'm surprised they couldn't retrofit some sort of motor for the redbird wipers. Then again, they do need one for every car...
All B division cars have automatic wipers.
It's only the redbirds that make you need a third hand.
I have seen the cab of a Redbird. They are very simple. They are also rather spartan in appearence.
BMTJeff
You haven't REALLY enjoyed a redbird until you've lowered the "bench from hell" from the bulkhead wall and tried to ride it. That and of course the hand exercises on a rainy day using the wipers. Good thing it's not the hand that doesn't get a lot of exercise that you need to ... do it ... :)
Seriously, the redbirds were like some ride from a Little Rascals movie ... all that was missing was the dog with the bullseye around its eye ...
The hand operated wipers that you mentioned are very interesting. A few years ago I rode the front car of a train of "Redbirds" on the #7 and noticed that the motorman had to operate the wiper by hand. The hand operated wiper gave your hand a good exercise on a rainy day. The "Bench from Hell" must be quite interesting. I'm sure that the T/Os won't miss the "Redbirds" when they are retired.
BMTJeff
Heh. I genuinely don't think there's an operator ANYWHERE that's going to miss the redbirds. And the TA has many other "hand exercises" to offer so I'm sure the wiper paddle won't be missed. :)
I'm sure it was a lot of fun to try to use the wiper at the same time you needed to use the controller handle and the brake handle.
BMTJeff
Well, you'd NEVER take the left hand off your work, or you'd have to pick geese out of the storm door ... let go of the throttle without the brake handle in full app or charge, and it was instant BIE. However you didn't HAVE to keep your hand on the brake handle unless moving it so that's how it was done. Of course on a REALLY rainy day, if you wanted to spot your 8/10 marker, you were screwed. :)
The old B division equipment was like that too ... and many R1/9's had no wipers AT ALL! (after all, the logic was that they ran in tunnels and would never get wet) ... can we say FULTON ST, boys and girls? We knew ya could ...
It must have been interesting when the T/Os of the R1/9s wanted to see what they were doing when they had to go over the Gawonus Canal at the Smith & 9th street station during a driving rainstorm.
BMTJeff
Never did that run, but Brighton was MORE than enough of a hoot in driving rain ... funny how south Brooklyn would have rain when nobody else got it ... and yeah, I went BIE more times than I cared to given the distractions of ... "where's the stop? OH SHEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!"
Did you ever ride the Culver line in the rain when they were using the R-1/9s? That must have been one hell of a ride.
BMTJeff
Nope ... I know they were on there - we'd meet them at West 8th on a Coney run but given that I lived in the Bronx, never a need for the GG for me ...
Did you ever ride the R-1/9s during a rainstorm when they were on an elevated or other form of outside line?
BMTJeff
Brighton mainline qualify? That's the reason why I made mention of "where's that 10 car marker? OH SHEET!" :)
Yes it does qualify since it is an outside line and if it rains inevitably the rain lands on the windshield and if you don't have a windshield wiper you cannot see what you are doing.
BMTJeff
Ya know, I've considered suing Spielberg and Lucas, since you used "the force" to figure out where you were. Actually it wasn't all that hard and some motors actually had wiper blades. But there were THOSE days too. You could usually tell where you were by that green in your face at the end of the platform, sometimes yellow. It wasn't as bad as it seemed, even in heavy rain. But you DID have to know the territory.
I'm sure the experienced T/Os knew their line like the back of their hands.
BMTJeff
Same trip every day. Four times. :)
I may have come in on this too late but the R1-9 did have wipers installed when Culver line service was assumed by the IND. I caught on in l968-69 or so on Myrtle after they were sent to the Eastern...1400 series, that had none at all. Not even a hole where a wiper may have been and fallen off. Disp. Tosi at Metro told me the story. [they didn't have them originally because they were for subway operation.]Took 14 years to find one car that missed the wiper installation!
Maybe I'm out of the ballpark but I think that's what you're talking about?
Yes we are talking about the lack of windshield wiper on some cars or the manually operated ones that are on the "Redbirds".
BMTJeff
Think of what the conductors had to put up with, assuming the position in a downpour. That's when you really had to be careful when climbing onto the step plates.
I'll bet your response would be, Been there, done that.:-)
'fraid so ... two words, "grab irons" ... love them, use them, wear squeaky boots. :)
ABout the lighting in a SEPTA M4, why are there red lights behind the motorman? They do produce a nice red glow in the cab but why are there light red? Blue would be better.
red allows for low level illumination without affecting night vision, maybe.
avid
SelkirkTMO made mention of a fourth throttle in a locomotive.
Do locomotives have multiple throttles? Ifso, for what purpose? In multiple-loco trains, aren't all the engines electrically linked and synchronized to one engineer's throttle?
The LIRR DE/DM30ACs have 2 throttles. There is the primary throttle at the (F) end. There's also a throttle (hostler) at the rear of the loco for yard movement & adds.
That was a joke ... "Ocean's 11" was a movie ... in most locos, there is a power throttle, an ENGINE brake throttle, an "AUTOMATIC brake throttle" (trainline air as opposed to locomotive brakes) and in some EMD's they're also equipped with a fourth DYNAMIC brake handle ... now most folks here understand how subways work where each car has motors and thus dynamic braking as the motors are turned into generators into a resistive load which causes the motors to be slowed by the electric load on them that this creates while they're "generating" and thus dynamic braking is achieved ... but on a freight train, all there is is AIR braking (that "automatic brake" handle") whereas the dynamics and engine brake only handles the locos ...
In many situations the engine brake and dynamic brake are one and the same but not on ALL locos ... so you can have three handles, sometimes four ... although the SD40-2 locomotive and Amtrak's F40 are SIMILAR, there are differences. If you're curious about the "stand" and how things are arranged, I can point you to a training manual (with pictures) for the Amtrak F40 ... can't find a copy of the SD40-2 handy but this link should give you somewhat of an idea of the layout:
Amtrack F40 Manual - click this link here
The above link will take a wee while to load as the railfan.net site it's pointed at contains the ENTIRE manual ... well worth it if you've got time and wonder what the innards of Amtrak standard issue look like and how things work ...
I think that sometimes instead of having a throttle w/ both run and dynimac positions there is a seperate switch that toggles the throttle positions between run and dynamic.
There's numerous variations depending on the mod kits ordered by each road and the mods they did themselves. The Gonerail locos up here were VERY much like the F40's so the manual I point to in the previous post is probably STILL the actual layout of the runaway train in Ohio other than the F40's were built for geese hauling and Hotel power whereas the SD's were meant for freight haulage with a storm door up front instead of on the side. But in the cab, they're almost exactly the same ...
For anyone who was curious though and has never set foot in an SD40-2, the manual is pretty much the innards of the train in question. Decide for yourself what happened there, especially if you look over the interlocking of the controls ...
Oughta keep the pundits here twirling for weeks ... and help folks better understand how locomotives ain't the same as subway cars ...
Apologies for the B.S. answer on this one - when I read it, I got lost and missed entirely what you were getting at ... yeah, a switch that would use the throttle switch (which through contactors controls motor speed) to switch out into a dynamic brake switch (which through contactors is largely connected up to the same stuff although the resistance is in series with the motor in propulsion mode and in PARALLEL with the motor in braking mode) ... it sounds like something that would have made sense. But nobody thought of it back in those days I guess.
With today's more recent designs, it's certainly possible but in the newer locos they went with the "blending" mode on the brake handle similar to how Dynamic braking is used to do the big slowdown with air cut out until the speed is reduced to the point where you'll still have shoes left by the time dynamic drops out and you're solely on air. So in a way, they have done this but a lot of folks tend to forget that the railroad workhorses date back to the 60's ... I know you're not one of them but certainly an interesting question now that I have a modicum of brain capacity. :)
Thanks to all of you for explaining this.
I understood the reference to Ocean's 11, by the way. But what I didn't understand was the use of the word "throttle" to refer to a brake control or brake handle. I thought "throttle" referred only to control of the engine.
Great posts. Thanks again.
You're welcome ... my fault for being tired when I posted that. I should have used the more familiar term "handles" ... but if you looked over the manual, you can see how the dyn brake handle looks JUST like the power throttle ... sure you should know your craft, but when you have controls that look similar (they SHOULDN'T BE in a good design) you can screw up. That's the reason why good engineering practices (design) says that controls should be unique in shape, feel and location so as to minimze the possibility of confusing them.
I agree with you 100%. A red button on a panel ("Danger!") should have a cover over it to prevent accidental triggering; handles and levers should not be identical when they have different functions....
And they should also teach deputies where the fuel cutoff switch is located, it ain't the center of the fuel tank. :)
What can I say?
How about hindsight is always 20-20? To the design engineers at GE and EMD - GM, please take note. They build them, so they need to keep in mind the poor tired guy who has to work with them in bad weather and other less than desirable conditions. A minor modification could go a long way to improve safety.
The HAVE changed them in newer locos ... in fact the console in most of the newer engines is not unlike the R143's ... have a look here:
SD80MAC console
Good. Hopefully the guy who has to work out in the real world can feel a little safer. Do the design guys have any input from the BLE as to what safety measures need to be included?
Good question ... dunno. I know that the head of design for EMD is an ex-BLE guy so I would imagine they've got a clue. But any way you slice the bologna, the guy screwed up. One should never do the equivalent of putting their hand through a window and operate train controls - the story goes that the engineer reached OVER the console and operated the wrong lever when the workrules do suggest that he should have come all the way around to be sure before moving it. But there's also the question of how was he ABLE to operate the wrong lever in the presence of interlocks unless they were defeated. A number of questions ANY engineer would want to ask sorta got forgotten about in this story ... but I figured a little show and tell might raise the questions again ...
Sounds like the quick and easy lead to the wrong and ugly. Something to think about when you are in a rush to make that short cut.
The CSX report said that the engineer was trying to get the locomotive to creep up on a switch w/o having to stop. He put it in Run 8 and set the brake. Only problem was that he forgot to get back on the train after he got off to align the switch. There was no air in the trainline and after the engine brakes burned away it was off the the races.
Would it really have been a bother to leave the train at a dead stop with the throttle at zero and the brakes set, throw the switch, and then walk back to the train?
Two words, static friction.
Meaning it would then take longer to get the train rolling again. I think the railroad could live with that; don't you?
Since he was moving a dry cut, he probably wanted to avoid
all the slack action associated with coming to a stop and
starting up again.
That sounds right. But his solution didn't work out very well...
Starting Monday, the Q runs between 57/6th and Brooklyn, and a shuttle train runs from Queensbridge to 34th/B'wy. How are they going to turn it at 34th with N and R trains running express? Maybe they'll turn it on the local track (if it's possible). According to the site the shuttle will make all local stops (49st).
But here's where things get more interesting:
Nights - F trains run in two sections: Queens to 57/7th via Queensbridge, and 57th/6th to Brooklyn.
Weekends - Queens to 34/B'wy via Queensbridge, and 42/6th to Brooklyn.
This will go on until June 21 st. This weekend will be the last F via 6th / 63rd for a while.
What is the purpose of this diversion? Track work in the tunnel?
I have no clue. I don't think it has to do with the short track section between Lexington and 57/6th. In the past the split service deal has been done to accommodate single-track running on the line. One thing the MTA got right when building that line was a double crossover between every stop (except 57/6th and Lex, if there was one the F and Q would probably not be split). They may also need to reduce headways on the line for work, and the Brooklyn portions of the F and Q shouldn't have to suffer.
We'll all find out Monday morning. 63rd street line always gets the extremes, doesn't it? One day, the line could be getting three subway routes while the next it gets a dinky shuttle with a deplorable 2 TPH.
They can turn it by pulling into the uptown exp track...
My question is this though: are they done doing whatever the *&^$&^%%)(*& they've been doing to the uptown local track through 57th/7th? Just having the usual N/R transfer over to the exp. track through the station has caused plenty of delays at rush hour (waited 20 minutes @34th street one day last week!), and now they want to juggle a shuttle into the mix?
One word: BLARRRRGGG!!!!
They're not done yet, they have to replace the switch merging the express and local into the 60th st. line. Similarly, southbound trains no longer have the option to pull into the express track.
They can only pull the shuttle into the uptown express track if they wrong-rail from north of 42st, and to do that they would have to skip 49st. At 34st, the switch is only a single crossover.
Why doesn't the shuttle skip 49th? Former incarnations of this shuttle have always (IIRC) skipped 49th. Between the N and the R, I think there's enough service there.
Getting past this whole 7 line neighborhoods fiasco, why does the 7 get the oldest cars?
The L also has older cars as well, R42's and R40s though not nearly as old as the Flushing redbirds. But the L is getting new R143 cars and CBTC I hear. I wonder why the L was picked for this. The L is similar to the 7 as far as not being a trunk line in Manhattan, as well as serving not so well to do areas (not BAD areas!!). Well actually the L goes through some trendy areas like around Bedford av.
I dunno if the 7 goes through any trendy areas, I personally doubt it. Hoever that's where the similarities end. The L has no express track, and service is less frequent. Once the R143's are in use on the L along with CBTC I wonder what will become of the R40s and R42's. Will that be the end or will they go to another B division yard. They will NOT replace the R32's which will probably outlive the R40s and 42's. However the R38's may go, and who knows how long the 44's have left. And from what I assume the R143's will NOT have railfan windows. :-(
Part of me wants the old rustbirds gone on the 7, but then again once they do "fly away" there will be no more railfan window on the 7 and that my friend will be a big loss.
Part of me wants the old rustbirds gone on the 7, but then again once they do "fly away" there will be no more railfan window on the 7 and that my friend will be a big loss.
Why? You won't have to look down at the undesirable neighborhoods anymore.
The R-143s are only for a service boost, nothing is being retired.
And the L goes through neighborhoods a lot worse than anything on the 7.
>>>>>>>The L is similar to the 7 as far as not being a trunk line in Manhattan, as well as serving not so well to do areas (not BAD areas!!). Well actually the L goes through some trendy areas like around Bedford av.
Stop being politically correct. The L goes through some of the sh*ttiest neighborhoods imaginable.
What is wrong with you people on this board? I understand that everyone has the right to have there own opinion,but some how this thread has boarder on becoming hostle now. How do some you posters consider Bushwick,East New York,Brownsville/Ocean Hill,Williamburg,Canarsie,Bedford Styuvsent,East Flatbush,Woodside,Corona Sunnyside,Elmhurst, and Flushing s***y neiborhoods? Oh,I forgot L.I.C. Granted,they arent the best the city has to offer,BUT,people still call them home. Not only that,but most of the residents there still pride themselves by neighborhood association.Some people still love[or like,whatever] where they live. Some of them still go to great lenghts to to put neighborhood pride,beautifaction and preservation. There are hard working folks that''moved on up''but didnt bail out. you guys should know better Never judge a book by its color..no I mean cover.
AND no im not tring to come off as some sub talk cop.or hard ass.just wanted to tell you guys how we felt about that whole s***y neighborhood thing. THANKS GUYS FOR UNDERSTANDING.
"Granted,they arent the best the city has to offer,BUT,people still call them home."
That's what I mean to say!!!
Never said it didn't. Toward the end of the line on the L things get pretty hairy.
Never said it didn't. Toward the end of the line on the L things get pretty hairy.
Canarsie is pretty hairy?
No not the very end, I mean around East New York.
Hey, there is nothing wrong with the neighborhood of East New York. I live not too far from that particular station and use it pretty much everyday of the week. You may think its "Hairy" because you are not familiar with the area :)
Well someone (on here) in the past said going through Brownsville, East NY is a bit risky. I did get that impression when I went through, but it really wasn't any worse than Jamaica.
Very tricky. esspecially at night. wlak under the el 3 lineor even the El "L" and see whati'm talking about. during the day it is errie...
The L is recieving new cars with the CBTC since it never shares trackage with any other line. If it works well on the L, CBTC will be installed on the 7 but I don't know if it will be with the R62, R142, or R160.
[If it works well on the L, CBTC will be installed on the 7 but I don't know if it will be with the R62, R142, or R160. ]
Probably 3 as the order is for 4 and 5 car sets according to MTA website.
Arti
The sets can easily be converted to 6 car sets.
They're not ready to move to the mainlines, they'd have to figure out how to handle trains running in dual mode first.
[The sets can easily be converted to 6 car sets. ]
I was corrected that R160 is not an A division order anyway.
[They're not ready to move to the mainlines, they'd have to figure out how to handle trains running in dual mode first. ]
Aren't R142(A) CBTC ready?
Arti
if the r62's are not CBTC ready that means the 7 line would need the r142's
That's not it. If they install CBTC anywhere on the IRT main, they'd have to install it everywhere, or else some trains would have to run through the CBTC system on one part of the line, and the old system on another.
[That's not it. If they install CBTC anywhere on the IRT main, they'd have to install it everywhere, or else some trains would have to run through the CBTC system on one part of the line, and the old system on another. ]
That's what the state on their web site. And it would be kind of stupid to replace a perfectly good, just renovated signal system.
Arti
So? Unless the specs changed recently, the R-143s have two propulsion profiles, "hot" under CBTC and "cold" under traditional signaling. "Hot" is equivalent to the current equipment with field shunting, and "cold" is equivalent to the current equipment without field shunting. The system is supposed to detect which kind of signals are in place in a given area and set up the propulsion accordingly.
David
I highly doubt they would let trains do the switches on the fly unless they've tested it first.
CBTC could theoretically be installed on the 1/9 or the 6 without affecting the rest of the IRT. That wouldn't leave much flexibility for reroutes between express and local, and the late-night 2 and 4 would have to run express as well.
I know next to nothing about CBTC. Would it provide the "creative switching" necessary to run bidirectional express service with only three tracks? That would be nice on the 1/9 (among others).
I'm wondering if there's a long-term strategy to this. The L finally gets new cars after so many years, primarily to get CBTC.
If this works out, it will be installed on the 7.
If the 7 received CBTC, what rolling stock would they use? Would they retrofit older rolling stock, or would they order a new fleet of cars for the 7?
I heard that the R142s already have the equipment for CBTC, anyone know if that's true?
when will it start on the 7?
When the L Line works perfectly...
I don't think so.
The R160 is on order. My guess is the 7 gets those.
[The R160 is on order. My guess is the 7 gets those. ]
Then explain me why is the order for 85 four-car operating units and
64 five-car operating units? Doesn't look like you can make a 11 car train out of them.
Arti
[The R160 is on order. My guess is the 7 gets those. ]
(Then explain me why is the order for 85 four-car operating units and
64 five-car operating units? Doesn't look like you can make a 11 car train out of them.)
R160 order is for Division "B" line not Division "A" line & those order is to replace R38/40Slant/40M & 42 not all cars.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation
Oops I assumed that previous assumption re A division was correct, BTW MTAs web site does not say what division cars they would be.
Arti
Isn't the 160 a B-division order?
Dan
There is no way any type of non-manual train control is going to be done with the R-62(a). They were not ordered with the future in mind, but more to be a reliable, no-frills car they could get rolling quickly. Same with the R-68. Those car classes cannot even be retrofitted with digital signs, let alone CBTC.
The R-142 or next A div. car would be used on the 7.
The R-142 or next A div. car would be used on the 7.
There will not be another A division car until the 20s.
>>>>Those car classes cannot even be retrofitted with digital signs, let alone CBTC.
Never say never. Remember that the R44/46's originally had roll signs and then had electronic signs installed during GOH. Same thing COULD happen when it's time for the R62/68 to go in for a check-up.
Someone else here (Train dude?) said that the R-44 and R-46 were built with digital signs in mind. I think it was that the wiring was there already, or something to that effect. Anyway the aforementioned poster of this said that the R-62s and 68s lacked such an advantage.
The old signs were also automatic. The rollsigns turned to the appropriate setting. There were, I believe, bar codes that would be read to tell the motor when to stop turning. It didn't always work out so well.
Well, what line did the R33WF and R36WF first attack when new?
Being World's Fair cars, they have spent their entire lives on the (7).
Dan
Until 1986 the 7 had their entire fleet composed of the newest of the A division.
Amazing how just 15 years makes such a difference. And in 1986 alot of A division still did not have A/C, if I'm not mistaken.
As a member, I received my latest Transit Museum newsletter featuring the three runs of the Nostalgia Special this summer. This has of course has been discussed here, but the newsletter should make it official. The three Nostalgia Specials will run on Sundays from Columbus Circle to Rockaway Park. I suspect a diversion to the Transit Museum is park of the trip. The dates are:
SUNDAY......... JUNE 17TH - JULY 15TH - JULY 29th
The newsletter advertises train tickets available by phone beginning Tuesday, May 15, 2001. Museum phone# (718)243-8601
It's not clear if the phone reservation system is for Museum members or both members and the general public. Call first to check this out.
The equipment running will of course be the BMT "Triplex" D-Types. The B-Types are still under going restoration and the R1-9s aren't road worthy. With a run to the Rockaways we can check out the new third track on the "flats" and progress of AIRTRAIN at Howard Beach.
Bill "Newkirk"
The newsletter does say there will be a stop at the Museum on the way to Rockway Park. ALso, on the way back, there will be a stop at Jay Street in Brooklyn for those wishing to alight at that point.
Some questions, since I think I would like to go on one of the trips.
How many stops does the train make for photography, if at all?
Do you get to ride track not normally used in service (apart from the obvious side tour to the museum)?
How friendly are the TO & CR on the trip?
John.
The T/O is hand-picked for the trip because he knows how to operate the older equipment, ditto for the C/R. When I've been on trips like this in the past, the T/O remained shut in the cab the entire time... he knew better than to block the railfan window, especially with a mob of foaming photographers outside his door. I don't bother with the trips any more myself because I've ridden the equipment once (or more) and don't really feel an overwhelming need to do it again, plus I hate the fighting that goes on to get a spot within 20 feet of the front window. Even with my size (wide, not tall, I'm afraid) I've been roughly pushed out of the way by others who consider themselves to be more important than those who got their first. So if you've never ridden the equipment, by all means get a ticket and ride, but if you're more interested in taking pictures, find out the route and intercept it a couple of times for your photo ops - it's a lot safer on the ribs that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
T/O's are special qualified, there are only three that are on the D types. The C/R has nothing to do except "Assume the Position" at the stops and okay to go over the raido. (Last trip there was a fault in one of the doors so they couldn't get indication).
If you find Subwaysuff you will find the best place to ride the train IMHO, but I'm not giving it away.
Since there are always two T/O's one not operating, and a TSS and someone from Sub-Division C on board you can find someone to talk to.
Forget the railfan window unless you want to miss most of the trip waiting. The trip to the Rockaway's does not see a lot of non-revenue track unlike the trip down the Culuvar where you might get the express track lower level. But you to go to the transit musuem (the get the first car just about nose into the platform) so that track is not in revenue service.
As long as you don't get stuck behind THE ROAD (regular service) the T/O's open them up but forget it if your on the markers.
The trip to the Rockaway's does not see a lot of non-revenue track unlike the trip down the Culuvar where you might get the express track lower level.
Not since the Bergen Street Fire. Coney Island-bound Nostalgia Trains usually switch to the express track at Smith/9th St now.
--Mark
When I took the Nostalgia Express in 1998 it was a very interesting route. We started at the Museum, used the A tracks out to about East New York, turned around and went on the A tracks to above 34th Street, then switched to the F tracks and followed those down past Bway-Lafayette, then a brief interlude on the Manhattan Bridge-bound IND, then made the rarely-used switch to the J tracks over the Williamsburg; then another switch onto the Canarsie Line at East New York, terminating at Canarsie. On the way back, we took a tour around the ENY yard. Fascinating stuff, in a 1928 Triplex along routes rarely navigated by today's trains...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I wasn't on that particular run... I rode them out to the Rockaways in either '96 or '97, I don't remember which (and I'm not in the mood to go digging for the slides just to confirm the date). It was a pleasant ride overall but nothing that I couldn't have done in more modern equipment (except for operating over the normally-unused leg of Hammel's wye and the in-and-out from Court Street) - and the Court Street segment I've done a couple of times on different equipment. I'll probably not shell out the bucks to ride them again; if I do have the chance, though, I might "chase" one of the trips, intercepting them at a couple of points where Jr. and I can get good pics.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did the whole intercept-the-train thing last summer with the CI trips. Got it at 59th, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, W8th, CI, CI again, and 59th again (*thanks to the Sea Beach express*).
I'm still hoping that someday, somehow I can experience a Triplex ride myself. It's all a matter of timing.
....especially with a mob of foaming photographers outside his door. I don't bother with the trips any more myself because I've ridden the equipment once (or more) and don't really feel an overwhelming need to do it again, plus I hate the fighting that goes on to get a spot within 20 feet of the front window....
I probably won't be foaming on any of these trips this summer, so now you all have a chance :)
--Mark
On the last fan trip we DID ride track not normally used: that being the express track between 4th Avenue and Church Avenue on the "F" line (yes, we DID go through the Prospect Park Bypass) and also the centre express track south of Church all the way to Avenue "X".
wayne
They could satisfy the unused trackage urge by playing with the route from 59th to the Museum. They could run down 8th and switch to 6th, or 6th and switch to 8th.
They could also use the center track on the Liberty ave el, or the middle tracks of the Rockaways (only south of Howard Beach, they're useless north of there).
In any event, I'll have my scanner and be poised on one of Crossbay blvd's bridges for a few shots of it crossing the North or South Channel Bridges.
How many stops does the train make for photography, if at all?
None. The Nostalgia Train is not a "fantrip" where the train is stopped periodically along the way for photo stops. If you want to get pictures of the train along the route, you're probably better off chasing it along its scheduled route, or sticking your camera out the window on curves and getting your shots that way, or ride it one way and get your photos chasing it the other way.
Do you get to ride track not normally used in service (apart from the obvious side tour to the museum)?
Depends on the scheduled trip. On the trio of trips scheduled this summer, you won't ride any non-revenue trackage. In 1998, I think it was, there was a Nostalgia train that went to Canarsie, and we did ride the KK portion of the Chrystie Street Connection, and the middle track on Broadway to Broadway Junction / East New York. Trips to Coney island sometimes, but not always, detour through Coney Island Yard. But that's about the extent of it.
How friendly are the TO & CR on the trip?
Very!
--Mark
Hmmmm, I received my letter on Friday May 18, and the tickets went on sale May 15th. I'll call this Tuesday, but they might be all gone by now....
www.forgotten-ny.com
if i show up with a tripod and my video camera, can i still shoot like i do with other subway cars etc??
i do not have to be in the railfan window just my sony 8mm camera like
i do with the redbirds, ACE r 32s r 38s LNR r-40s r-42s on the JMZ lines etc... BUT
i do not want to hog or block the railfan window ,but can i at least put my camera there !!!
Tripods are not allowed on the Nostalgia Train. In fact, they're not allowed on TA premises without a proper permit.
--Mark
Getting a "spot' at the railfan window on the Nostalgia Special is like winning the 20 million dollar lottery. Last year they opened up two door panels on a 6 car D-Type train to check tickets. Of course much like the Nostalgia Special of old, the foamers make a 20 yard dash for the railfan window, all 173 of them !
You can always pull a fast one and say that terrorists have hidden deadly Antrax near the railfan window and your specially adapted videocam will find it and save numerous lives. If they buy that, you are sure to have the first car to yourself !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>>>You can always pull a fast one and say that terrorists have hidden deadly Antrax near the railfan window and your specially adapted videocam will find it and save numerous lives. If they buy that, you are sure to have the first car to yourself !!!
Either that or eat a lot of Deviled Eggs before the ride, then LET 'ER RIP!!
i just wanted to put the videocamera there folks !! ( thats all ) thanks !!
If the Seashore trolley Museam is getting a boeing-vertol LRV then they shoud get #3418 it was the first to go in service with plug doors and the last one to be in service with plug doors.
Please bear with me this is a 3 part question. I assume before any train goes into service a pre-check is done of the train. My question is does the train crew perform this or are there special people that do this? Secondly if something say a head light is out is the train taken out of service especially if it is just a storage yard or does go to a maintenance shop? And lastly what is meant by running repairs? Thank you for any help.
A) Train crews who make up trains for service are given 1 hour to check the train out. Prior to the crew, Road Car inspectors do a pre-service inspection. They are required to make all repairs necessary to get make the train road-worthy. They'll replace bulbs, fuses, compressor safeties, glass, etc. They are also required to make repairs to doors & electric circuits. I would assume that answers both part A & part B of your question.
C) Running repairs may be a somewhat misleading term. We refer to a repair as a running repair if it's done between inspection cycles and it does not require the car to go to the overhaul shop. A running repair can be finding an open in the main light circuit, replacing a door operator or even replace a static converter of a compressor.
"Running repairs may be a somewhat misleading term. We refer to a repair as a running repair if it's done between inspection
cycles and it does not require the car to go to the overhaul shop. A running repair can be finding an open in the main light
circuit, replacing a door operator or even replace a static converter of a compressor. "
You mean to tell me that a running repair is not: Operator calls Central when train is at 50mph to report trouble, and reduces speed to 10mph while a repairman runs alongside the train swinging a wrench to fix the problem?
Watch out for that column! :0)
From personal observation at Brighton Beach, when (forget the name) the person who justs moves the trains around pulls a train from one of the layup tracks south of the station into the station sometimes a supervisor (guess he but he wears a tie, never saw a RCI wear a tie) jumps on and bangs around in the cab before the road crew gets on.
You mean to tell me that a running repair is not: Operator calls Central when train is at 50mph to report trouble, and reduces speed to 10mph while a repairman runs alongside the train swinging a wrench to fix the problem?
Sorry Ron, what you are describing is a "repair on the fly" or a "flying repair". Per the TA/TWU contract, such repairs are covered under Article IV Section 2.7d. RCIs performing such repairs are paid at 1.8X the normal rate + they get 2 hours overtime to be evaluated for mental competancy. If such a repair is made between 6PM and 6AM weekdays or 6PM Friday and 6 AM Monday. The regular night differential is also doubled ONLY for the period of time covering the actual work. No additional night differential is paid for report writing or during the evaluation. In the event that said repair requires the RCI to place himself in such a way that his body is in front of the carbody 'frontline' (such as to replace a headlight) his rate of pay will be increased an additional 7.5% for every 10 MPH of maximum speed or fraction there-of.
As you can see, the contract interpretation for such repairs can lead to confusion so such repairs are not generally encouraged.
Thank you for straightening me out on that...
PS - Any bonus for doing it on roller skates?
Any bonus for doing it on roller skates?
12.5% if one skate is on the running rail and the other on the third rail. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow ... more nostalgia down the drains ... whatever happened to monkeys climbing the cars, a guy hanging off the grabirons waving a lantern and folks yelling "RAILROAD!" to each other just in time to get out of the way? ... they've taken all the FUN out of the job. :)
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
May 19, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic. Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! mIRC users, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE the chat this evening!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
SubTALK LIVETo niteIn 5 hours
Today I took Acela Express #2290, the 8:03am departure from New York Penn to Boston/Route 128 Station. This is only the third weekend of Express service. Arriving about ten minutes before departure, I asked the conductor on the platform how crowded the train was. He said there would be about 100 "guests (the strongest showing yet for weekend service), but that most had gone into the front few cars -- so I would find it less crowded towards the rear. I looked through the windows into the first business class car (behind the lead power car #2035 and first class car respectively), and saw that every "two seater" had at least one person, and some two. Walking back along side the second business class car, I saw the same thing. Then came the cafe car, then another business class car, which looked like it had only 15 or so people in it. I entered the last car, and it was empty. And I was the sole occupant of that car for the entire three hour, twelve minute ride! The only other person I saw was the conductor when he came through to punch my ticke. That sure isn't likely to happen again.
The train was a few minutes early, and everything worked perfectly. The "Connecticut Crawl" is a bit better on weekends with less Metro North traffic; the "Rhode Island Rush" is just as awesome, topping out at 150 mph. I timed the last segment from Mansfield to Route 128, which I ride often on the commuter train (it takes about 22 minutes with a stop in Sharon); on AE it took six minutes, 30 seconds!
I hear him on WTOP (live feed at http://www.wtopnews.com) on Sundays. I am pretty sure this is him. His online bio is at http://www.bloomberg.com/radio/charlie.html. I can try to record his voice off the radio so we can all compare it to the R142A announcements. You can also get a live feed of WTOP at www.wtopnews.com and click listen live. He would come on the air at :25 and :55 past the hour but they don't always do reports from Bloomberg. His tagline on the air and that "Stand clear of the closing doors please" on the R142A convey a very similar tone.
Has anyone else heard him and/or can comment?
I'm applying to do the R-160. Shouldn't it be a railfan?
And I can even throw in a quick weather report :-)
-Transit and Weather Together
Oh! How do you apply? I'd like to.
Dan
They should have a contest. Write something related to railfanning, send in a sample of your voice, and the finalists are called upon for more tests.
I can just imagine my doing it:
"Stand clear of the doors already! How I wish this was the DC Metro, not the Bronx-bound 6!"
And you really think its him?
I'm pretty sure is him. I saved the Daily news article that specifically mentioned him as the male announcer. I don't have it near me right now, but the name sounds familiar.
Yes. I heard him in the 12 AM hour this morning on the air. Listen live to wtopnews.com for several hours today. You will hear it.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
May 19, 2001
7:30 PM ET
BusTalkers are welcome, too!
SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for
a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no
exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic.
Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.
ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! mIRC users, do your thing!
NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE the chat this evening!
WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
I tested subtalk live and it's a little slow on my computer could anyone else test it?
no need for another message relating to the topic.
For how long will these cars run on the #2 line? Is it only for temporary?
they were going to stay for about a month but the R-142's are coming back in now. that same world's fair model that we all saw on the 2 line is in the middle of going back to corona, or might stay as a 5 train as it was intended in the first place. It had ran on the 5 before. the R-142's are coming in like wild fire. first 6421-30, towards the end of the week 6301-10 came in, 6311-20 is next, then possibly followed by 6411-20 and a nother new set starting monday. B. on the lookout if you can.
Because do to Server Problems. SubTalk Live is NOT going on tonight. It's possable that there would be a make up date for SubTalk Live. I would make a post on when we should have a Make up date for SubTalk Live.
There are no server problems, Subtalk Live is still working
>>> There are no server problems <<<
My computer is gettng an error message regarding the server.
Tom
Can I pick it up on my webtv??
There was a Server Problem at 7:30 PM. It was connecting part that have the problem.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
May 19, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject although others can ask the OP to look over a topic. Even so, the chat should allow for some other topics (within reason).
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
I originally posted this on BusTalk. This is important to prevent situations like those created by Ry-Trans-It and Q46 that cause people to think the room is down.
THERE ARE NO SERVER PROBLEMS.
BTW, I do not appreciate people telling me how my chat room works or not. You
don't know what goes on. For all I know, this could be a problem with YOUR
computer (which it probably is), and then with your thoughtless posting, people
think that it won't work for them either.
Therefore I will add the following to the list of Subtalk Live rules:
NO ROOM STATUS INFORMATION IS TO BE GIVEN BY ANYONE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
AMERICAN PIG OR WMATAGMOAGH. Any information given by another person is
incorrect and is to be disregarded.
If you have a connection problem you may ONLY contact connection@subtalklive.com
If the room really was down and you were to use e-mail, at least I'd be notified and I'd be able to fix it RIGHT AWAY. I get e-mail notification 24/7 (unless I'm sleeping), but not Subtalk message notification 24/7.
I fell like killing myself by walking onto the train tracks and get hit by a F 40.
Why? You didn't do anything wrong.
Why are you blameing me for? That's made me feel like a STUPID guy that's drunk and getting killed by a R-40S doing 60 MPH.
That HOG Make me feel like Killing Myself! If this Happens again Im slaughtering that HOG!
Watch out, Charlotte will get mad, spider bites are NASTY. SPARE THE PIG
Yes, and our arachnoalliance has helped us bring back the REVOLUTION.
With a NEW tagline:
The revolution will now be televised!
Y*E*S, Y*E*S, Y*E*S!!!!
Kilfile That HOG
How do I Killfile someone? I need someone to help me out with this.
Do what you want. You act like an idiot, then when someone complains, you're all sensitive and act like a three year old crybaby. And I've said a lot worse things to other people than open up a new Subtalk Live policy (ooh, how painful!). Nobody is crying their eyes out like you infants.
>>> you're all sensitive and act like a three year old crybaby. <<<
You AGEIST PIG!!! :-)
Tom
That isn't necessary.
We all make mistakes, you made one last night. Get over it, keep SubTalking, and join us for the chat next week. You know why no one is in my killfile? All the SubTalkers have good things to say. Trust me, get over it. Pigs is right. You are taking this a little too seriously. His mention of the policy will prevent this from happening. All will work well in the end.
Your righ lets forget about it and talk about things that move on two rails ( Trains ).
Movie The Incident 1967 Martin Sheen Teens terrorize passengers on a NYC subway. on FXC 8PM
I haven't seen that one in years. I wish Time Warner would pick up FX. Sheen, Beau Bridges, Tony Musante and other familar faces are in it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I got Time Warner's DTV. The movie is actually quite good.
:::cough:::satellite:::cough:::
>>>>::cough:::satellite:::cough::: <<<<
meager bank account (vomit)
satellite service fee cheaper than cable "Atlantic City Board Game" (feeling better)
Satellite ... CHEAPER than AOL cable ... no talking fish, and no "drag queen's greatest hits CD's" either ... and you get east coast and west coast feeds, so if you miss something, you can see it again in three hours ...
Satellite systems are VERY cheap now. A single room system is $50.00, a multi-room is about $100.00 because they're rolling out the new HDTV-compatible equipment now. I have one at home.
Martin has come a long way. He's now the President. Bo Bridges played a g.i. we just started getting FXC down here in Northern Va. 2 mo. ago.
DANG! I don't get FX. but I do get FOX
I thought I saw a set of old 'owl eye' LIRR cars in Sunnyside Yard riding past the other day. Did I?
www.forgotten-ny.com
LIRR did have a couple of these, and one of the ex-Boston & Maine diesel hauled coaches set up as an alcohol-sprayer train for winter weather. Perhaps it was this MofW train you saw?
You're on the money. It's an old alcohol sprayer coupled to 2 old tanker cars (which I believe were parked behind the eagle electric plant @ thompson av for god-only-knows how long, and not part of an alcohol train - though I could be wrong). It's likely awaiting a date to be sent out to the scrap yard, and currently has a homeless guy living in it (the inside is filled with switches, electric boxes, and large drums that the alcohol was kept in - as well as plenty of trash and assorted homeless-person stuff).
There's also a string of left over ore cars down there that are bad ordered and waiting the scrapper (CSX wouldn't move them when the other 100 were sold from what I heard), though with the Queens Blvd. bridge work blocking them in, it doesn't look like they'll be moving anytime soon.
-JOe
As of 8:00 PM. SubTalk live is back to normal. So SubTalk live is still on!!
Well we learned one thing and that thing is STUFF CAN BE FIXED!
>>>>Well we learned one thing and that thing is STUFF CAN BE FIXED!<<<<
Sure they can.
SubTalk Live, televisions, races at Yonkers Raceway, they all can be fixed.
I know the r160's will be the next for the "B" division. what about the "A"? and when will it come?
I know the r160's will be the next for the "B" division. what about the "A"? and when will it come?
In the 20s or early 30s.
[In the 20s or early 30s. ]
If you don't count in the R142 option order.
Arti
I don't think a contract number has been contemplated, as the R142 will replace all redbirds and the next oldest cars, the R62's, have at least 30 years left.
I thought the 142's would not replace quite all the redbirds and that an R-150 contract would complete the fleet
when are the r150's coming??!!
The R-150 is not coming. Eric B's post is incorrect.
Eric B.'s posting is correct, but outdated. It was decided a few months ago to exercise options on the R-142 and R-142A contracts and issue a Change Order on the R-142 contract to finish the replacement of the "Redbirds." The next IRT order should be in a few years, but it is supposed to be a small order to supplement the existing fleet, not to replace anything. The R-62 and R-62A cars will be around for quite a while.
David
He might have been thinking of R160, which is an unfunded run-on of the R143 for 660 cars to replace R38 thru R40M.
Don't know about the unfunded part...the MTA website says bid opening is tomorrow, May 23.
David
Does anyone know the origin of the "R"- numbers. Why are so many numbers skipped, ex. R-110 than the next number is R-142. Is there any logic to how these numbers get assigned?
Piggo12
the other numbers like r111 and r112 are work cars i think its it
Another site, "thejoekorner.com" has a comprehensive list of ALL of the R contracts from R1 to now ... you can go straight to the list here:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
I was riding my bike underneath 120av and farmers. I saw 407 going into jamaica carrying about 3 bilevels in front of it.(it was tailing) anyway. I was surprised because usually when I am riding the Q84 home I see nothing or I see EMU's only. Anyway is this only a weekend thing?
No, at least on morning train take that route in the AM. It arrives at Jamaica at about 7:05 - departs 7:11 en route to LIC.
No, at least on morning train take that route in the AM. It arrives at Jamaica at about 7:05 - departs 7:11 en route to LIC.
Also the dual-mode from Speonk that stops at Patchogue at 6:40 and arrives at Penn around 8:25.
Alright, the R-143 can get away without them, they're being confined to the eastern division. But there is no excuse the R-160 (or whatever the next B div car is) should not have them. Why? Because today I saw the most extravagant waste of full-color leds I have ever seen. Riding the Q-44 from the Bronx to Queens, I saw a huge LED sign displaying in white on blue text "WELCOME TO THE BRONX - WHITESTONE BRIDGE," which was so perfect (from my perspective) that I would have thought it was a regular printed sign had it not changed to Magenta on Blue "DRIVE CAREFULLY." I then notice on closer inspection that the MTA logos I thought were to the side of the sign were actually part of the sign, also in full-color LED! Now, I'm going to give this example every time someone says "cost prohibitive" to the suggestion of full-color LEDS. The surface area of this sign has enough LEDS to cover the bulkhead signs of every R-143 cab car (all 53)!
...every R-143 cab car (all 53)!
Your math is wrong. There would be 106.
You could carry the signs from one end to the other...
Mouser has RGB led's for $7.00 _EACH_
I'd hate to know what the billboard sign cost us.
what company/website is "Mouser"? Could full RGB units finally be that low?
Also, you still have to take into consideration whether the sign is made with true RGB units, or separate red, green and blue LED. The reds cost pennies, and the blues and greens cost about $2. (If the old yellow-green is used, that too is pennies). Most large screens use separate primary colors. (The large screen inside the ESPN Zone restaurant is the only one I know of that consists of full color units.) For smaller signs at close range, the separate primaries will not give you good resolutions or colors. There is such a sign at the 207th St car desk, and it is very blurry due to it consisting of columns of red, green and blue. (And each column can only be but so close to the next column of the same color). You also see some old red/green only signs like this.
We'll probably have to wait until the full color single units become more affordable. I'd like to hope that maybe they did use some on the interior and side signs.
Meanwhile, I'll have to check out this sign people mention from time to time. I know that the huge sign near the Midtown Tunnel entrance is old-fashioned incandescent lit.
I have seen the sign in question as well as a similar one near the Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge, and they are incredible in their resolution and clarity. If the MTA can afford more of them, they should definitely go on the new trains, as well as be retrofitted to old ones.
Dan
Sounds like a good idea, retrofitting the new LEDs into the older cars. Let's start with the R32S!!!
WAYNE
I'll second that.
That was for a single LED. (one dot)
Mouser is a supply house like DigiKey
*MUCH* cheaper in quantity, larger discount for having the whole shebang made in Korea or Japan and shipped out from there. Mouser charges a pretty stiff markup for parts ... just one example 35 cents for a standard T1 Red LED that you can get two for a penny if you order 1000 of them. Their markups on "low order specialty items" are a bit higher ... Jumbotrons ain't cheap, but they're not QUITE obscene either ...
Well let's base our price estimates on Radio Shack :-)
Arti
Wouldn't know what their prices are. We don't do business with Texas companies, at least not for the next 3-3/4 years. :)
I know the blues are $2&change a piece, the whites (brand new) are $4 and the other colors come 2 or more in a pack for around $1 IIRC
We had an extensive discussion last year about those signs.
I believe they are incandescent.
You mean like, filaments n'such?
How can you get RGB to come out of discreet points so close togther?
Ever see the diamond-vision screen at a ballpark? You never
really get closer than 20 feet or so to that sign, so what looks
like very good resolution may in fact be pretty coarse close-up.
dig.
seems like they'd burn out a lot.
You recently sent me an e-mail requesting to be added to the mailing list for the Chicago field trip. I tried to reply, but my message was bounced back undeliverable by AOL. Here's the message I got:
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
[cmajor1094@aol.com]
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to air-xb04.mail.aol.com.:
>>> RCPT To:[cmajor1094@aol.com]
<<< 550 cmajor1094 IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER
550 [cmajor1094@aol.com]... User unknown
Please remedy the situation and/or let me know what your correct e-mail address is so I can add you to the list.
Thanks,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Here we go again!
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47741-2001May18.html
This article decribes the computer problems they are having.
Does this sound like the R-142's?
TransitChuckG
This just proves that CAF is a spanish version Of Breda
Breda did a good job with the WMATA cars...
What was wrong with the Breda cars? I think that the companies that build for the WMATA have such a tough job, since they have to make them look alike. That must be really annoying.
Well I guss breda can make trains that run on third rail and not on wire.
why? what is wrong with the Breda LRVs that operate for MUNI?
They Are good? But how About the MBTA?
Contrary to what you think, Breda 2000, 3000, and 4000 series cars are pretty good. When I ride DC Metrorail, I prefer to ride Breda cars than Rohr cars.
Chaohwa
Breda has a better railfan window. It is easier to see the cab and the seat is easier to lean on.
Does anyone know the website URL for CAF International? If so, let me know. My e-mail adress is: carlwal@hotmail.com
CWalNYC
It is www.caf.es
Yes!!!
I want to see these things. I've been waiting since January 13.
Now I just hope they don't show up while I am away from the DC area this summer. But if they are delayed at the pace they are going at, I might be able to pull it off.
If you want to see them go to www.caf.es
They don't have pictures of the CAF cars. Those are Breda cars they are showing. There is one article that the Washington Post published with an interior photo of the CAF cars.
Several of our local news programs showed video of the interiors and some exterior shots this past week in their reports on the latest delay. There are a few distinctive aesthetic differences from the Breda cars but nothing revolutionary. It appears that the interior end-signs are LED, the color scheme doesn't evoke the 1970s so vividly(but it still makes me think of an institutional waiting area), the exterior route/destination signs seem larger and brighter than the current ones. That pretty much sums up the visual differences...they can only show so much of things other than the reporter in 60 seconds.
That is a computer generated image. I won't even tell you how I know.
if you hate someone then killfile them. im killing myself
That's not a bad idea, you don't read your own messages, why clutter the board with them?
I do. It is how I find responses to my posts.
???
he is putting himself in his killfile
thank you.......... now i understand !!!
Yesterday I caught the tail end of the Yankee game against the Mariners. The game was an away game for the Yankees at the Mariners new ballpark. There is a rail switching facility next to the ballpark that is very busy. It seems the freight trains that pass by frequently blast the horns when near the park. It is said to be a warning for the switching facility.
How about some of those loud horns from the new Dual level diesels find there way to the number 4 train.
A blast of those babies as the "4s" approach or leave the station (during games only) would cheer on the Wooooooooorld Champeeeeeeeeeens
as they well deserve. Maybe if a yellow flag were permently fixed to the track, a warning toot would be necessay. I understand a loose nut is in that vacinity. Safety first.
Thats just my New York opinion.
avid reader
avid
They dub it "Robotrain" and don't even use the official number for the cars, but the story does get in a lot of what's been talked about on the board here.
It also says the No. 7 train will be next up for CBTC. Does that mean a retrofit for the R-62s to handle the new computerized signal system, or will the 7 end up getting the R-142 supplemental order, after the CBTC has been placed on the line and the Corona and CI yards have been modified to handle the R-142s' AC system. That could also mean the Redbirds will be staying on the 7 for a while longer until the final R-142s show up.
TA Set To Boot Up Computer Trains
It also says the No. 7 train will be next up for CBTC.
The TA long had a hierarchy for how it would implement automation, going back at least to the '50s, maybe earlier. It was:
TS-GC Shuttle
Franklin Shuttle
Flushing 7 Line
since this represented a single track two station line (Track 4 only had the automation), then a 2-track line with several stations, and then a more complex, but still isolated, line with local and express service.
As we know, automation did come to track 4 of the 42nd St. Shuttle, and Identra was tried on the Flushing Line. I think it's interesting that they've bypassed the Franklin Shuttle entirely to put CBTC on the L, despite the fact that the rebuilding of Franklin gave them a perfect opportunity to install and test CBTC.
I wonder if CBTC on the L forecloses any service via Broadway-Brooklyn to Canarsie with non-R143 compatible equipment.
You think an R42, for example, couldn't run that line after CBTC is installed?
And you are right about the Franklin Shuttle.
I assume that an R42 wouldn't have signal control on the CBTC line unless they had redundant standard signals and what would be the point of that?
It probably will keep any Broadway-Brooklyn/Canarsie service from happening until the Broadway el is equipped for CBTC. But since it's been over 30 years since the last Broadway-Brooklyn/Canarsie service, it's probably not a front-burner concern for the MTA at this time.
And really uneccesary, as no demand for this service exists.
It would make some sense if it was used in connection with a route that also involved the Chrystie Street connection, which would give Canarsie riders direct access to midtown Manhattan via the Sixth Ave. (or Eighth Ave.) local tracks.
But it couldn't use the future V train -- running the route from Continental Ave. to Canarsie instead of just to Second Ave. -- unless that line was limited to eight 60-foot cars because of the Eastern Division stations. A longer V line with 600-foot trains could be better used to provide Culver local service in Brooklyn, and a Canarsie route to lower Manhattan via Nassau Street is pointless.
Two thoughts along this line:
a) having 8-car trains of 60-foot equipment running on the extended "V" service wouldn't be the end of the world (the "C" uses this now)
b) I wouldn't say that a demand for through Canarsie-6th Avenue service doesn't exist. Ask any rider getting on at Canarsie if he or she wouldn't appreciate a one-seat ride to midtown without transfers.
wayne
With the large increase of L ridership west of Broadway Junction, how can you justify diverting some trains away from them, when current L service is inadequate to begin with?
Well, in theory you can retain fixed-block signals on a line, and if you had to recall all your CBTC cars you could then run conventional trains on the old system.
Also, I see no reason why an R42 (or an R46, etc.) couldn't be retrofitted with CBTC equipment. We're talking electronics here. There would be some complications in doing so, of course, but if a 25 year old DC-10 with analogue dials can be rebuilt into a modern marvel with a "glass cockpit" (as Boeing has done), then I don't see why the MTA couldn't do that to a subway car.
The post article on the 143 cars states that the cars can run by commputer or manualy. It probably makes no sense but do you think the TA will keep fixed block system as a back-up? Also what would become of the signals dept. when they do away with the wayside signals?
DC Metro ran manual for some months recently--I forget the reason. My brother, who rides daily, said that you could tell when they went back to automatic, because the auto is actually better.
My point is that there is apparently no problem is operating CBTC manually, if need be. The problem I was looking at is that non-CBTC equipment would probably have to be banned once the system was installed.
Good point Paul.
Perhaps the NYCT chose the Canarsie Line in particular due to its 'isolation' from all other lines/divisions (with the exception of the Jamaica Line -- via the connection at B'way Junction).
Whereas the Franklin Shuttle is still physically connected to the Brighton Line.
Doug
Thats not true. The 7 line is just as isolated as the L. And yes, the R142's can be used for CBTC if the TA want to try it on an A division line.
I know that CBTC is going to start first on the L line and then make its way to the 7. The L is getting there 143's whaich are CBTC ready. What about the 7? I dont't think the r62's are ready for that. Does that mean that the r142's will make it's way to the 7 instead of the r62's?
No. The 7 gets CBTC once it proves successful on the L.
I don't think they are evaluating "success" on the Canarsie line, but just to find out possible problems in MTA context. Successfullnes of CBTC can be assessed on a paper (CBTC is not some MTA designed esoteric technology.)
7 will be next up for signal replacement and it will be 99% CBTC, the experience on L will only determine the timeframe.
Arti
It's been left in it's ugly red primer phase for over 6 months now. Woodhaven Blvd. looks nice, and I'd like my station to look as good.
eew, tell me about it. I live not too far from there, Woodhaven Station got it done real quick.
If they kept the primer color and used some black or beige as accent, it wouldn't look so bad.
wayne
Actually, I like the forest green/beige scheme the city has used for the past 12 years.
When they went through demolishing mezzanines, why did they get the wrong ones at 102 St, Forest Parkway, and Elderts Lane ?
I would assume that the 104th Street, 85th Street and 75th Street mezzanines are more popular.
The odd thing is that the Woodhaven Blvd. station retains it's other part time mezzanine, as does 121 St and Cypress Hills., although they're always exit-only.
They retained the more heavily used 24 hour booths. The Forest Pkwy. mezzanine was unmanned, with old iron maidens used.
I like the red color at this station. It's a change from the usual ugly beige.
Yep that's right!! R-62's did run on the (7) back in 1984 for testing on the R-62. I saw a photo of it on MTA's website.(Someplace in there.) I wounder if the (7) was to get R-62's back in 1984?
in this website, there is a picture of the r62 on woodside. it was testing in the late 80's
Where is it?
go to rolling stock then click irt then click r62 and go to the last page. you will find it there
The photo looks nice. I think I saw something white in the background in the photo. I think the (7) should have stick with the R-62's instead of the CRAP REDBIRDS!!
they sould have but i don't know why? i think the mta hates the mets
The Transit Museum sells postcards showing an R-62 consist on the 7 line set against the Queensborough Bridge in the background.
In James Clifford Greller's book "New York City Subway Cars" they have a picture of R-62s running on the No. 7 line.
BMTJeff
The R-62 cars did run on the 7 (both in testing and revenue service) for a short period of time in the mid 1980s while the redbirds were going through a major overhaul. But that was the only time. -Nick
How long did the R-62s run on the 7?
BMTJeff
it ran in the mid 80's when the r62's first came in to service. i think it was onthe 7 for probably a year
R-62s were tested on the Flushing Line in the mid-1980s, but did not play well with the Steinway Tunnel and were removed for adjustments. A few returned briefly during the GOH for the R-33/36 WFs a few years later, but other than that, the same flock of `birds has ruled the roost on the 7 since February, 1964.
WHat happened to them in the tunnel ? Was it the door lights ?
Yes the exterior guard lights were ripped off while the train was travelling in the tunnel.
"Yes the exterior guard lights were ripped off while the train was travelling in the tunnel."
What will happen when the R62As go to the #7? Has this problem been taken care of, or was it only for the R62s and not the R62As? -Nick
The problem was fixed before the R-62s made their return during GOH. The MTA just decided to keep the `birds where they were after the overhaul and send the R-62s back to the mainline.
Can someone tell me what is CBTC stands for and what do CBTC do?
it is a computer that will run the train. no more conductors driving it. it will be driven by a computer that will be controlled by people from the mta in those little houses that are on the tracks, well next to it I AM NOT SURE BUT THATS WHAT I THINK
Thanks.
Now I wounder if Baltmore MTA and WMATA have that in their Subway cars?
i dont know nothing about other transit systems. only this one
i am only 15 years old and i posted my first post on tuseday
i dont know nothing about other transit systems.
Wow, you really know something
i am only 15 years old and i posted my first post on tuseday
"Age is not a disability..."
Of course we do except we call it ATO.
OK.
ATO is anouther way of saying "CBTC" of course.
ATO is anouther way of saying "CBTC" of course.
It is not.
ATO=Automatic Train Operation
CBTC=Communications Based Train Control
It is the same thing. They both are computer drivin and don't need a T/O to be in the train. The T/O is only in there to watch the raod bed for any thing on the tracks.
Robert
Not entirely. Here in DC, the TO role includes that of conductor. When ATO was down for a year and a half, they actually ran the trains manually. In unusual circumstances, such as icing or standing water on outdoor rails, they may have to switch to manual as well.
Not quite.
The C/R would be eliminated, and the T/O would perform two functions.
The T/O would operate the doors, and he would watch the roadbed during automated operation.
Not quite.
CBTC is signalling technology. It does not assume ATO!
Arti
Sure it is. Just like George Carlin once said about the term used to describe when a soldier gets "stressed out" during battle:
1920's: Shellshock
1960's: Battle Fatigue
1990's: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
In other words: the same sh*t, just a longer title.
What would you call Jersey's PATCO Line? The T/O hits a switch and the train runs by itself to next station. All he does is open and close the doors. This sounds like ATO to me. What do you say, Jersey Mike?
TransitChuckG
It is. In fact, that is what the R143 will have.
PATCO is ATO, but it is not CBTC. PATCO uses ATO patched onto an ATC system that uses coded track circuts. CBTC uses radio communications. Personally I feel that CBTC is a mistake and a waste of money.
Yeah, but I could see it working in TA territory primarily because it's already "wired" for radio and the leaky coax used would ensure a solid signal throughout the system where it would be used, also with a good degree of security. Given ground noise in the rails, track circuits wouldn't be as reliable for the subways and TCP/IP can be rather robust among other noise, especially if they're planning on using encrypted data to prevent tampering by "interlopers" ... The NYC subways have always been a unique railroad that went its own way. And manages to thrive in that uniqueness. I think it'll work out just fine actually.
Mike, I passed along your concerns that CBTC is a mistake and a waste of money. The MTA board would like to know why. Can you share your insight with us.
A set of objectives for a CBTC system should be defined before a judgment can be made as to whether or not it is a mistake. What exactly are the MTA's objectives for its CBTC system?
The published objectives for the San Francisco MUNI system establish quantifiable performance criteria, such as max tph, stopping accuracy for ATO, etc.
The published objectives for the NYCTA system establish procurement criteria, an "interoperability" criteria (since watered down) but not a single objective for train performance.
I think this is the first big mistake.
Will the TA's CBTC substantially improve train operations (and which parameters) over the existing block system capabilites?
Now, if the TA's CBTC system would substantially improve such operations, why are such criteria not published and made part of the procurement specs? Let the manufacturers gamble that their new technology can improve operations rather than the MTA.
From that point of view, I absolutely agree with you. What I object to are the blanket statements & the vague generalities that substitute for facts in some subtalker's posts.
What I object to are the blanket statements & the vague generalities that substitute for facts in some subtalker's posts.
Why don't you object to the blanket statements and the vague generalities that substitute for facts from the CBTC suppliers? :-)
"Why don't you object to the blanket statements and the vague generalities that substitute for facts from the CBTC suppliers? :-)"
A very provocative question with the usual CYA answer - "It's not my job".
I am in the division of Car Equipment. If we were debating car equipment systems, I suppose I could hold my own. However, I have little technical signal experience. Besides, those people who do make such decisions, rarely consult with the people in the field. I mention this only so we do not confuse apples and oranges. When it comes to CBTC, I know little more than the average buff and clearly not qualified to evaluate the claims of the signal supliers. What I was referring to were statements like "CBTC & ATO are interchangable terms." I think that especially in this forum, we could use a few less 'experts' and even less people willing to accept any jibberish as fact.
I have already gone into it several times before. Basically since you shouldn't do away with insulated rail joints (broken rail detection, track flooding, debris on rail, etc.) you'd have two paralell systems. Furthermore CBTC is more apt to interfereance than coded track circuts in today's increasing wireless society. CSS technology is proven and considerably cheaper than CBTC and it will work with the existing signaling system instead of replacing it. CSS will provide at least 75% of the benifits of CBTC at probably half the cost.
CBTC, as planned for NYCT, does not entirely dispense with
track circuits and IJs. It simply spaces them out since they
are no longer needed for block signaling. There are still OS
circuits protecting interlockings and in what would traditionally
be called automatic territory, long track circuits of 3-5 thousand
feet. For equipment that comes through without CBTC on board or
that has CBTC cut out, these become absolute blocks.
No matter what system is chosen, other than tinkering a little
with the existing stop-arm based system, it will require a
complete replacement of all the components. You can't use the
same track relays for coded, cab-signal applications as are in
use and installed currently.
CBTC can be implemented through the rails or with radio. I think
the radio technology is robust enough to ensure reliable
comnunication. I don't think cell phones, etc. will interfere with
it. Not sure what would happen if someone brings a grip dip meter
next to the instrument case though.
By far the biggest problem with CBTC is complexity and the difficulty
of analyzing system behavior and ensuring fail-safe operation.
Let's see what happens in the Canarsie pilot project.
I feel that the ideal hi-density subway signaling system is a 5 aspect Cab signal with 1000 foot blocks and permissive operation (trip arms at absolute signals).
I feel that the ideal hi-density subway signaling system is a 5 aspect Cab signal with 1000 foot blocks and permissive operation (trip arms at absolute signals).
Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by hi-density? How many tph? Also, what is the minimum distance between stations and the maximum length of the trains?
The minimum permissible distance between trains in the NYCT is currently 750 feet. I don't see how your ideal system with fixed length 1000 foot blocks could improve capacity.
It would improve capscity w/ faster average speeds, permissive operation and partial moving block capibility.
Conventional cab signaling is a pain in the butt in rapid transit
operation because without the wayside signals you don't know
where the code is going to drop on you. Next-generation cab
signal systems, aka Positive Train Control, tell you not only
the current authorized speed, but the distance to the next speed
change and what that change will be.
In terms of train capacity, the ideal signal system was used
out on the Chicago els: sight boards. No bulbs to change, no
IJs to maintain. The most critical component was located in
the cab, between the ears of the motorman. Of course, that
component isn't failsafe, and things happen.
I will second Bauman's motion that the biggest problem facing
the system (NYCT) is capacity, and that CBTC will take 50 years
to make a marginal dent in the problem. The problem could be
addressed much better and quicker by improving the accelerating
and braking performance of the fleet. Rapid transit cars with
4.0 mphps service rates were here 50 years ago! If you really
want to be depressed, take a ride out on the Newark subway
and see how they're haulin ass with 55 year old equipment, then
come back to NYC and enjoy a nice leisurely ride.
Conventional cab signaling is a pain in the butt in rapid transit
operation because without the wayside signals you don't know
where the code is going to drop on you. Next-generation cab
signal systems, aka Positive Train Control, tell you not only
the current authorized speed, but the distance to the next speed
change and what that change will be.
There are waysideless systems all over the place (Metro North, parts of Amtrak, CR Boston Line, PATCO, Rt. 100, DC Metro) and nobody has any problem. When your cab signal changes you change your speed as the T/O. Cab Signals obey the same ordering as normal signals (ie clear turns to approach, etc) so you'd only get a stop dumped on you in case of emergency. The best part is that the cab signals can dump a less restrictive aspect on your b4 your clear your block.
"Grip Dip?"
Substitute salsa for lighting guys on movie sets?
What will happen with the stops? Blind ones?
Ooops, bad typo
s/grip/grid
AFAIK, NYCT plans to retain homeballs at interlockings. I haven't
seen any drawings for Canarsie so I have no idea if the approach
balls will be there as well.
In some areas it is a long, long stretch between interlocking
limits, too long for a single track circuit. Whether they'll
have blind stops, a big cut section (rather long absolute block)
or some intermediate automatic signals I don't know.
I think there are going to be a lot of problems with the pilot
system. Hopefully they will tend towards the "trains can't go"
mode rather than the "trains attempting to co-occupy trackage" mode.
(I think there are going to be a lot of problems with the pilot system.)
By definition. The real key is inter-operability -- ie. multiple vendors able to supply the equipment. Without it, we're dead meat on the dollars. Just have to hope it all works in the end.
Metrocard worked, didn't it? Or is Mr. Bauman ready to start another thread saying NYCT should have stayed with tokens?
[By definition. The real key is inter-operability -- ie. multiple vendors able to supply the equipment. Without it, we're dead meat on the dollars. Just have to hope it all works in the end.
Metrocard worked, didn't it? ]
But Metrocard wasn't "multiple vendors able to supply the equipment" type project. Wasn't the desire to use multiple sources sparked by the experience with Cubix.
Arti
Metrocard worked, didn't it? Or is Mr. Bauman ready to start another thread saying NYCT should have stayed with tokens?
Metrocard has been accepted because NYCT bribed passengers by reducing the fare to Metrocard users. Its acceptance stagnated at less than 10% for a couple of years before the fare reductions were introduced. The 10% discount for purchases over $15 did not make much of a dent. Metrocard use did not take off until the free bus-subway transfer was introduced. Metrocard was not a necessary instrument to intrduce such a transfer. There were reduced 1/2 fare bus-subway transfers in NYC between 1948 and 1952.
If the Metrocard experience has shown anything, it is that the per ride based fare structure is faulty. A time-duration based fare structure has far more rider appeal. Much of the high cost for the custom software for NYCT was to implement the existing per ride based fare structure. Using a time duration based fare structure, which had already been used in other systems, from the start would have saved a bundle.
The real key is inter-operability -- ie. multiple vendors able to supply the equipment. Without it, we're dead meat on the dollars.
Inter-operability is the Achilles heel not the salvation. It means that the equipment must conform to the engineering state of the art, when the system design was made - 1991 in this case.
The classic example for the inter-operability trap is the LIRR. The LIRR set standards for their new electric cars in 1903. They did this by getting their best steam equimpment and crews and making extensive speed, acceleration and braking tests to set operational standards. They then stipulated that the new electric equipment must meet these standards.
The cars were a success and the LIRR decided to extend electric service. New cars were needed. The LIRR then decided that all new electric cars should be inter-operable with the existing stock. The result was that as late as 1963, the LIRR purchased 50 new cars that were up to these 1903 standards and no better. These cars were more expensive to buy because they could not use standard parts that the rest of the world had accepted.
NYCT got fleeced by Cubic and the Metrocard. NYCT judged that the sole problem was going with a single vendor. They resolved that their CBTC system would have multiple vendors and "inter-operability". The problems are that their assessment of Metrocard's high cost was wrong and that they are not getting multiple vendors.
NYCT's definition of multiple vendors/inter-operability has degenerated into the lead supplier licensing its proprietary hardware/software to additional suppliers. This is not an example of multiple vendors; it is an example of a single vendor operating under different names. The original intent had been not to use any proprietary components. This degenerated into using a proprietary but published IEEE standard. The latest incarnation is give the lead supplier a license to rape and pillage.
The bigger problem is that the communications technology to be supplied is more than a decade old and thoroughly obsolete by today's standards and the standards of three years ago. The communications protocol question has been decided in the last decade; the solution is TCP/IP. The LonWorks technology, stipulated by the TA, uses a different communications protocol. This protocol is implemented by a proprietary integrated circuit called a "Neuron Chip". There were only two "Neuron" suppliers: Motorola and Toshiba. Motorola dropped out over a year ago because they did not see a sufficiently expanding market for LonWorks to keep a "boutique" IC in production. So, NYCT efforts have resulted in relying on a sole supplier - Toshiba. They do not have a contract with Toshiba. They had more leverage with Cubic for Metrocard.
A time duration-based fare system -- which would be a defacto distance-based fare system -- would be as tough to float in New York as removing rent control, even if it is already is use in places like Washington, DC and San Francisco. Changing the system would naturally favor riders in Manhattan, who tend to travel to the outer boroughs less often, while raising fares on those living in places like the north Bronx, south Brooklyn, eastern Queens and the Rockaways, who have longer travel distances (and times) to deal with to get to their jobs in Manhattan.
Even if the MTA went to a time-based system and didn't raise the maximum fare a penny above $1.50, people in the other boroughs would be peeved that Manhattanites were getting a break on their fares. And since the outer boroughs contain about 80 percent of the city's voting population, no politician is going to risk that backlash.
[A time duration-based fare system -- which would be a defacto distance-based fare system ]
Depends how much time do you have to complete your transfers. If it's 2 h I don't see where's the problem or a difference from current system. MTA will save on not counting transfere.
Arti
NYC has gone to a defacto time-interval based pricing structure with the day pass, the weekly pass and the monthly pass.
I was thinking that a 2 hour pass be priced at $1.50. This would be the same as the per ride ticket with bus-subway transfer. The point is that such a system is much less expensive to implement than trying to enforce all the silly per ride transfer rules via the Metrocard computers.
The only thing that is cheaper is the $1 cash single off peak bus fare on the franchise buses. There is no need to eliminate this.
Not to mention the fact that people of mderate incomes living in outer boroughs should not be penalized for using mass transit. It's a matter of good business for the TA, good for environmental and social justice...
So timed Metrocard would improve their transit situation by moving them out of 2 fare zone.
Arti
A two hour time limit would probably satisfy most people in the city, though some Manhattanites would probably still be able to get in a round-trip using the card, where outer borough residents wouldn't because people in Manhattan tend to have shorter trips to their destinations.
That would just be a minor advantage, but the MTA would have to do a check of all possible bus/subway and subway-only possible routings into midtown Manhattan to determine what the "two hour" zone would be. If you live towards the south side of SI or even certain sections of Eastern Queens, you're going to brush up on the two-hour time limit, especially for bus riders on bad weather days, when traffic slows to a crawl.
[round-trip using the card, where outer borough residents wouldn't because people in Manhattan tend to have shorter trips to their destinations. ]
I can currently get a round trip if I use bus to go and train to come back.
[That would just be a minor advantage, but the MTA would have to do a check of all possible bus/subway and subway-only possible routings into midtown Manhattan to determine what the "two hour" zone would be. If you live towards the south side of SI or even certain sections of Eastern Queens, you're going to brush up on the two-hour time limit, especially for bus riders on bad weather days, when traffic slows to a crawl. ]
In that case make it 3 hours.
Time based system assumes that you can complete your trip within the time allowed. A personally doubt that any trip within City limits will take more than 2h to the last transfer.
Arti
[There were only two "Neuron" suppliers: Motorola and Toshiba. Motorola dropped out over a year ago because they did not see a sufficiently expanding market for LonWorks to keep a "boutique" IC in production. So, NYCT efforts have resulted in relying on a sole supplier - Toshiba. They do not have a contract with Toshiba. ]
There's always been Echelon (the proprietor of the LonWorks) also Cypress supplies them.
That technology is quite used by other transit authorities in US like Amtrak, NJT, MBTA to name few.
Also LonWorks is a bit more than just a communication protocol like TCP/IP.
I have a feeling that for some reason you just hate Lonworks.
Arti
...also Cypress supplies them.
The reference that I'd consulted just before my last post did not mention Cypress. I had thought that there were 3 suppliers before Motorola dropped out. Thanks for picking up this omission.
The problem is basically the same. The Neuron is not a commodity chip. Its continued availability is crucial to LonWorks. Look back 25 years and extrapolate what problems will be likely in 25 years. Have you tried to get purchase a new 8008 lately? Where do you think you'll be able to find a Neuron in 2025?
Also LonWorks is a bit more than just a communication protocol like TCP/IP.
It's a distributed control system that depends on a reliable communications protocol. There were several competing protocols for control networks, when LonWorks started a decade or so ago.
It was not clear at that point which would emerge as the defacto standard at that time. It's obvious that TCP/IP is the standard and is likely to remain so for quite a long time. LonWorks has recognized this by trying to encapsulate LonWorks messages into TCP/IP. This is a typical strategy to extend the life of a mature technology. It is not something that I'd expect for employing new technology.
That technology is quite used by other transit authorities in US like Amtrak, NJT, MBTA to name few.
The rail industry is a technological back water. Its size does not warrant a mention for electronic/communications application lists. They must borrow technology from other applications, if they want to share the reduced costs of the new technology. Their environmental, safety and reliability constraints are not sufficiently different from other control applications. They have chosen to remain insular and embrace a proprietary technology that has had very limited success in expanding into other industries. Rest assured that there will be no substantial price breaks forthcoming for Neuron-related components.
I have a feeling that for some reason you just hate Lonworks.
Not really. My experience has shown me that a company can control its technological destiny, if it controls its communications. The first thing the TA did was to spec in a proprietary communications protocol for their system. That's my objection - not LonWorks.
[The problem is basically the same. The Neuron is not a commodity chip. Its continued availability is crucial to LonWorks. Look back 25 years and extrapolate what problems will be likely in 25 years. Have you tried to get purchase a new 8008 lately? Where do you think you'll be able to find a Neuron in 2025? ]
I'll use a 8086 example, you can't get those either, but there are upgrades available :-)
As far as Echelon goes, I don't see why couldn't they be around in 2025, there's a major installed base and not only in rail industry.
And by that time the technology would be in public domain anyway.
[It was not clear at that point which would emerge as the defacto standard at that time. It's obvious that TCP/IP is the standard and is likely to remain so for quite a long time.]
TCP/Ip doesn't deal with the physical infrastructure of the network, in those (Subway) conditions there's nothing really off-the-self I could think of use.
[LonWorks has recognized this by trying to encapsulate LonWorks messages into TCP/IP. This is a typical strategy to extend the life of a mature technology. It is not something that I'd expect for employing new technology. ]
Their partner is Cisco in that effort. Also IMO the reason for LonWorks TCP/IP network integration is better integration to existing non industrial control systems.
[The rail industry is a technological back water. Its size does not warrant a mention for electronic/communications application lists. They must borrow technology from other applications, if they want to share the reduced costs of the new technology. Their environmental, safety and reliability constraints are not sufficiently different from other control applications. They have chosen to remain insular and embrace a proprietary technology that has had very limited success in expanding into other industries. Rest assured that there will be no substantial price breaks forthcoming for Neuron-related components. ]
Lonworks is widely used in other factory automation, industrial control, climate etc. systems. Why do you think that they haven't expanded into industries.
As far as price goes, the LonWorks is inexpensive to begin with. Haven't heard of too many TCP/IP based industrial control applications yet.
[Not really. My experience has shown me that a company can control its technological destiny, if it controls its communications. The first thing the TA did was to spec in a proprietary communications protocol for their system. That's my objection - not LonWorks. ]
In this respect, LonWorks is not that proprietary. IMO LonWorks suits this application much better than someting based on TCP/IP what has to be developed yet as LonWorks is more of a turnkey solution.
Arti
As far as Echelon goes, I don't see why couldn't they be around in 2025, there's a major installed base and not only in rail industry.
You really don't want to compare the installed base between 8086's and Echelon, do you? Why do you think that a product that has an installed base that is several orders of magnitude less than an 8086 should be available in 25 years?
And by that time the technology would be in public domain anyway.
Latin is also in the public domain. The important question is whether LonWorks will have any relevance to the world in 2025.
Haven't heard of too many TCP/IP based industrial control applications yet.
This depends on where one looks. If you want to see what the already committed read, check out Control Engineering.
TCP/Ip doesn't deal with the physical infrastructure of the network, in those (Subway) conditions there's nothing really off-the-self I could think of use.
There is nothing OTS about NYCT's CBTC system. TCP/IP can use ethernet as one of many physical layers. Ethernet's suitability for harsh industrial environments is well documented.
Lonworks is widely used in other factory automation, industrial control, climate etc. systems. Why do you think that they haven't expanded into industries.
Compare the installed base with that for PLC's and other automation solutions.
IMO LonWorks suits this application much better than someting based on TCP/IP what has to be developed yet as LonWorks is more of a turnkey solution.
OPTO22 among others already offer a tcp/ip based turnkey solutions.
This is not really the point. Neither LonWorks nor OPTO22 has any connection to this project. NYCT is contracting with a lead CBTC (Siemens/Matra) supplier to provide this system. This supplier should have enough knowledge to decide which hardware/software products are best suited for this application. There are a sufficient number of solutions for the communications between the hardware modules so as not to unduly burden the design.
So, the question remains, which is more likely to be have greater availability in 10, 20, 30 and 50 years from now: TCP/IP or the proprietary LonWorks?
[You really don't want to compare the installed base between 8086's and Echelon, do you? Why do you think that a product that has an installed base that is several orders of magnitude less than an 8086 should be available in 25 years? ]
What makes you think that 8086 has larger installed base?
[Latin is also in the public domain. The important question is whether LonWorks will have any relevance to the world in 2025. ]
Echelon claims that there are "literally in the tens of millions" nodes installed worldwide with "over 3,500 companies are using Echelon's LonWorks control networks in products for the building, home, industrial, telecommunications, transportation and other industries." Now that to go away in 25 years is hard to believe.
[There is nothing OTS about NYCT's CBTC system. TCP/IP can use ethernet as one of many physical layers. Ethernet's suitability for harsh industrial environments is well documented. ]
I didn't mean OTC literally. Ethernet implementation for CBTC would be a very expensive and cumbersome proposition with all those routers everywhere. That would be a nightmare. Try again :-), I can't think of anything what wouldn't proprietary.
[Compare the installed base with that for PLC's and other automation solutions. ]
And what's not propiertary with PLC's??? And you are really comparing Apples and oranges. (Apple intentionaly capitalized)
[So, the question remains, which is more likely to be have greater availability in 10, 20, 30 and 50 years from now: TCP/IP or the proprietary LonWorks? ]
Both!!! Unless someone burns all the information about Lonworks :-)
Arti
I personally think it's silly to try to determine what's going to predominate 20 years from now, or even 15.
Ken Olsen thought he could, and if he were right, everyone today would be using dumb terminals to log onto their PDP minicomputers.
Interesting that a guy who was so visionary would reject his own engineers' request to release a color PC in 1974 to the world (they had one). They would have owned the market...
I personally think it's silly to try to determine what's going to predominate 20 years from now, or even 15.
One had better be able to determine what will not be obsolete in 20 years, if one is contemplating a 20+ year implementation cycle with an interoperability criterion.
[I personally think it's silly to try to determine what's going to predominate 20 years from now, or even 15. ]
The question is not about domination, the question is weather it's still be around.
Arti
I would be interested in finding some reliable statistics for deployment of embedded microcontroller architectures. My guess is that LonWorks compatible modules trail embedded pc modules by I wide margin. I base this on the fact that there are only two companies producing the Neuron, whereas there are over 50 companies producing PC104 products. Again, this a seat of the pants guesstimate.
Now that to go away in 25 years is hard to believe.
See any new Windows 3.1 applications lately? The brutal fact is that obsolete technology is treated brutally.
Ethernet implementation for CBTC would be a very expensive and cumbersome proposition with all those routers everywhere.
Are you confusing hubs/switches with routers? Hubs/switches interconnect devices/nodes. Routers interconnect networks. LonWorks also uses routers to interconnect networks.
TCP routers that do not require a WAN are almost commodities. TCP wireless access points already are commodities. Unfortunately, the wirless NIC's are not yet commodites.
And what's not propiertary with PLC's?
I did not suggest that PLC's are not proprietary. I suggested that their installed base far exceeded that for LonWorks.
Unless someone burns all the information about Lonworks :-)
When was the last time Echelon turned a profit? :-)
The point is not to get into a position that is similar to today's. I define that position as having to recreate yesterday's technology through special orders and limited production runs and unreasonable high costs in order to maintain the existing equipment.
[I would be interested in finding some reliable statistics for deployment of embedded microcontroller architectures. My guess is that LonWorks compatible modules trail embedded pc modules by I wide margin. I base this on the fact that there are only two companies producing the Neuron, whereas there are over 50 companies producing PC104 products. Again, this a seat of the pants guesstimate. ]
What I gather LonWorks is widely used in commodity products by Lutron and others, PC104 would be too expensive for that.
[See any new Windows 3.1 applications lately? The brutal fact is that obsolete technology is treated brutally. ]
Actually I did, some stupid screen saver it was :-)
[Are you confusing hubs/switches with routers? Hubs/switches interconnect devices/nodes. Routers interconnect networks. LonWorks also uses routers to interconnect networks. ]
No I'm not confused, by spec you can't add hubs indefinitely in IEEE 803 realm.
[TCP routers that do not require a WAN are almost commodities. TCP wireless access points already are commodities. Unfortunately, the wirless NIC's are not yet commodites. ]
I did some research on the CBTC project, and they will be using TCP/IP as the communication protocol. Based on indirect evidence it looks like ATM would be the infrastructure in tunnels, ethernet in the control center. LonWorks is the architecture inside the cars and is already present in R142. The wireless band is 2,4 GHz. They picked Matra's PROPRIETARY design over more common solution of Alstom.
[When was the last time Echelon turned a profit? :-) ]
Their profit and sales have been going up for the past few years.
[The point is not to get into a position that is similar to today's. I define that position as having to recreate yesterday's technology through special orders and limited production runs and unreasonable high costs in order to maintain the existing equipment. ]
The consultant who analyzed the the modernization issue for MTA found that over 50 years CBTC would be the most cost effective, even considering the technology obsolesence, if you care I have the reports.
In order not to have special orders you maintain your rown inventory, like (the name slips my mind) that transit system who had a DTL based signal system.
Arti
I did some research on the CBTC project, and they will be using TCP/IP as the communication protocol.
Care to amend your assessment as to why Echelon needed to encapsulate LonWorks inside tcp packets? :-)
They picked Matra's PROPRIETARY design over more common solution of Alstom.
Alstom's solution uses a third party source - Springboard Wireless Networks. This was the DCS that Matra used in their successful Culver Line field trials. Going the proprietary route, without any further recertification, should raise red flags up and down the procurement channels.
The consultant who analyzed the the modernization issue for MTA found that over 50 years CBTC would be the most cost effective, even considering the technology obsolesence, if you care I have the reports.
If that's the same report that I've read, then he restricted his search to solutions that were currently available from existing rail industry suppliers. He ignored control solutions that have been employed in other industries. Not including all viable options is one of the MTA's favorite ploys.
Their profit and sales have been going up for the past few years.
According to the current yearly report, they have lost money on operations for each of the last 8 quarters. The 4th quarter 2000 loss of $1.4 million was the largest quarterly loss of this period. Some of these losses have been offset by interest and other income.
"If that's the same report that I've read, then he restricted his search to solutions that were currently available from existing rail
industry suppliers. He ignored control solutions that have been employed in other industries. Not including all viable options is
one of the MTA's favorite ploys."
Sometimes a "ploy" isn't so bad. Defense contractors, for example, looked into the railcar business years ago, and wanted to introduce new technologies to them. Not bad, in theory, but awful in execution.
I don't like a "not invented here" attitude any more than you do, but history has shown that machinery which works well in other settings has a habit of not doing so well in the subway - for a variety of reasons.
Your point has merit. Nothing is ever as simple as it first appears.
Defense contractors, for example, looked into the railcar business ...
You have certainly cited an extreme example because defense contractors have even less regard for cost than NYCT's new facilities advocates.
...machinery which works well in other settings has a habit of not doing so well in the subway...
Does anything work well in the subway? :-)
If that's the same report that I've read, then he restricted his search to solutions that were currently available
from existing rail industry suppliers. He ignored control solutions that have been employed in other industries.
I know this is a favorite theory, that the railway signal
industry is fleecing everyone and the TA should just use PLCs.
Curious, do you have any experience dealing with railway signals?
It's not the same as a factory floor. Railway signal equipment
has been specifically designed and tested to protect trains,
as opposed to drill presses, lights and water coolers. If the
MTA took the position that they were going to strike out on their
own and blaze a new trail of using non-vital, off-the-shelf components
to protect their trains, even if the appropriate regulatory
agencies permitted it, what do you think would happen the first
time two trains smashed into each other?
The above paragraph, however, is fairly independent of the CBTC
debate. Assuming that you have to go along with the signal industry,
which signal tech would you pick, tried-and-true, or something
that many people within the industry are expressing doubts about?
Railway signal equipment has been specifically designed and tested to protect trains,...
I'd always thought that it was the switching network functions produced from this equipment produced that protected the trains. That must be some hefty relay to be able to stop a train all by itself. My mind boggles at calculating the max inrush current... :-)
BTW, does that boolean logic that you mentioned in your previous post know whether it is describing a drill press, light, water cooler or train?
Sure, the relay can stop the train, just bolt it to the rail
about a 1/2 foot to the field side so it strikes the trip cock.
Again, it is a systems / applications engineering issue.
Yes, at their core, PLCs, vital relay logic and vital signal
processors share some common mathematical _theory_. There
are a lot of steps involved in translating that theory to
a complete, working system. Products sold as railway signal
apparatus by reputable manufacturers have been extensively
tested within that system. Products sold as factory floor
automation devices have been tested in that system. Would
you put your loved ones at the front of a train knowing that
the signals which protect it were not designed to perform
that task? Would you climb up a mountain using bakery string?
Would you use an old salami wrapper as a condom? Yeah, in
all of these cases, the equipment is similar, but it hasn't
been designed and tested to perform in the same way.
...at their core, PLCs, vital relay logic and vital signal processors share some common mathematical _theory_.
I take exception to use of the qualifier "some". There is a single mathematical theory that all these devices share.
There are a lot of steps involved in translating that theory to a complete, working system.
There are simple, unambiguous techniques for mapping boolean logic functions, ladder logic diagrams, circuit schematics, wire run lists and the actual systems themselves. The steps are routine. There are dozens of computer programs that will spare the designer the rote drudgery of going through these mundane exercises.
Would you climb up a mountain using bakery string?
Nor would I trust my fate to a relay based logic network, using 42 gauge wire that was supposed to handle 1 amp. I would not trust my fate to a relay network using vital relays whose contacts were rated at 1/2 amp that were trying to switch 5 amps. I've seen too many such exercises result in contacts being welded shut. One could try to cheat by putting two sets of undersized contacts in paralled, but I wouln't recommend that either, nor would you.
Let us assume that all components are properly sized. Anybody can sabotage any system implementation by undersizing the components.
...in all of these cases, the equipment is similar, but it hasn't been designed and tested to perform in the same way.
Other equipment can and has been designed to perform the same way.
Other equipment can and has been designed to perform the same way.
Where? Give me one example of a railway has done what you are
suggesting the MTA do, use non-signal equipment in a signal
application?
You've an excellent command of textbook theory. I have a few
degrees in EE too. But you didn't answer my question: have you
ever designed, installed or maintained a railway signal system
or component thereof (H-O gauge doesn't count)? As a corollary,
have you at least read the books that pertain specifically to
railway signaling applications?
I'll just give up, as I'm "publicly mastrubating" and discussing somethin some people on this baord don't comprehend :-)
IMO we all should read the links I posted to carry on the discussion, as we both were wrong.
Arti
[This is not really the point. Neither LonWorks nor OPTO22 has any connection to this project. NYCT is contracting with a lead CBTC (Siemens/Matra) supplier to provide this system. This supplier should have enough knowledge to decide which hardware/software products are best suited for this application. There are a sufficient number of solutions for the communications between the hardware modules so as not to unduly burden the design. ]
But that was not left for them to do. I don't understand why do you keep calling it a proprietary standard, when I believe it's IEEE P1474, and few others probably used in connection with the project.
Arti
I don't understand why do you keep calling it a proprietary standard, when I believe it's IEEE P1474,..
A published standard is of little use, if it requires a proprietary IC to operate and that proprietary IC has only 2 manufacturers.
Ethernet (and by extension TCP/IP) is also a published standard. However, there is a much wider choice of vendors supplying proprietary IC's and even more vendors using these IC'S in various form factor modules.
Can you really imagine the TA setting up a FAB, if LonWorks goes broke and there's a Kyoto-like earthquake at Toshiba?
[Can you really imagine the TA setting up a FAB, if LonWorks goes broke and there's a Kyoto-like earthquake at Toshiba? ]
No someone else will do something as there's a market for LonWorks, outside transit industry. And I believe that Cypress is not next to Toshiba plant.
Arti
No someone else will do something as there's a market for LonWorks, outside transit industry.
LonWorks has been around for 10 years. The number of vendors providing LonWorks modules has not increased during this time. One large vendor, Motorola, has withdrawn. If there were sufficient demand, I'd have expected a vigorous second and third source market by now.
PC104 has been around for about the same length of time. The number of vendors providing PC104 modules is more than 10 times greater than those supplying LonWorks modules. The variety for such modules is much greater.
The two are not interchangeable for all applications. I'm citing it as an example of what I'd expect for a 10 year growth for a technology to give a clear hint at being viable for the next 25 years.
If I were to bet on the technology that will kill LonWorks and several competitors at the same time, it would be CanBus. It will beat it in cost. Its production will be measured in the hundreds of millions. The automobile industry has become cautious about its deployment. It's starting to appear on a few high end European models.
[The two are not interchangeable for all applications. I'm citing it as an example of what I'd expect for a 10 year growth for a technology to give a clear hint at being viable for the next 25 years. ]
IEEE standard for rail industry IMO would probably sustain this technology at least in this segment. MTA is not the only one endorsing it. In the event no specialized LonWorks chips are produced, you could implement it with generic processors.
Arti
Frankly, I don't know what you guys are talking about and I'd bet most people on Subtalk are also at a loss. Now I may be somewhat challanged in this area but from where I sit, it would appear that you guys enjoy masturbating in public - figuratively speaking of course.
I'll use a 8086 example, you can't get those either, but there are upgrades available :-)
As far as Echelon goes, I don't see why couldn't they be around in 2025, there's a major installed base and not only in rail industry.
And by that time the technology would be in public domain anyway
I'm sure you can get an 8086 chip and if not the exact chip then something that performs the same function. Even of those aren't available many places make chips to order. Since the demand for custom chips is very high, the cost of a custom, retro chip wouldn't be all the great. IC chips are like a screwdriver or a wrench. They preform functions that don't go out of date (like a 555 timer). Sure you can update the design, but there will never be any point in using an advanced modern chip for a job that only requires an 8086.
The discussion is little deeper than that. That was just some stupid example and not very instrumental to the post.
Arti
TCP/IP is actually _too_ compatible, using it would open up the system to malicious interlopers. Not that it would be easy, but if a "Black Hat" hacker did get in, the system would already be speaking their language.
(Just telnet "WEST4.tower.nycta" and then "reverse 2")
;-)
A (probably bad) example is building a discrete telephone system for a dedicated purpose, but then running the whole thing off DTMF "touch" tones. --Once someone compromised the network, there are no further barriers.
----------
Suppliers design cycles are so fast these days that any long term project is going to run into obsoleting problems.
[TCP/IP is actually _too_ compatible, using it would open up the system to malicious interlopers. Not that it would be easy, but if a "Black Hat" hacker did get in, the system would already be speaking their language. ]
The physical plant of MTAs CBTC would be so much different, that that hacker would have to be really dedicated (read willing to invest into special, probably custom built) equipment, that learning LonWorks wouldn't be much of a deterrant.
I don't TCP/IPs relative "insecurity" was a consideration.
Arti
This whole discussion of LonWorks vs TCP/IP is pointless wrt
CBTC. Regardless of what underlying protocols are used at layers
1,2 or 3, it is the entire integrated package that is important.
Yeah, you can buy a PLC from, I dunno, Allen-Bradley, then try
hooking that up to an OPTO22 box, even if they both use ethernet
or RS485 or whatever. Same thing with TCP/IP. Just because
you specify that every signal location has an IP address doesn't
mean anything useful happens after that.
The prospect of interoperability with new-tech signal systems is
actually very, very, very poor and there is a long historical track
record. Go back to the 1940s when relay-based "code" systems were
being deployed to centralize towers. Try hooking a GRS field
unit into a Union master tower. Not happening. The last time
signals were really inter-operable was back in the days of unit
wire systems (i.e. what most of the current NYCT system is still
"stuck" on).
What the TA is doing is awarding a "leader" contract to a vendor
who will basically dictate the standards, and then a bunch of
"follower" vendors will try to make a buck cross-licensing.
This whole discussion of LonWorks vs TCP/IP is pointless wrt CBTC. Regardless of what underlying protocols are used at layers 1,2 or 3, it is the entire integrated package that is important. Yeah, you can buy a PLC from, I dunno, Allen-Bradley, then try hooking that up to an OPTO22 box, even if they both use ethernet or RS485 or whatever. Same thing with TCP/IP. Just because you specify that every signal location has an IP address doesn't mean anything useful happens after that.
I hope I did not give the impression that using a TCP/IP protocol would by itself guarantee that two or more devices would be able to work in harmony without any further effort.
My point in stressing the communications link between the various system components is that this link's "poor performance" by itself is sufficent to doom the entire project. I have left the term "poor performance" sufficently vague so that it may include cost and extensibility as well as some of the standard performance measures.
Metrocard...ahem, well, on the whole I guess the system came
out ahead, but basically one set of problems was traded off
for another.
Anyway, Metrocard is not a life safety vital system. Signals
are. I am very concerned that extremely complicated software
systems are being introduced to replace what is essentially
a boolean logic system.
[Anyway, Metrocard is not a life safety vital system. Signals
are. I am very concerned that extremely complicated software
systems are being introduced to replace what is essentially
a boolean logic system. ]
According to the consultant's report I read safety was the highest criteria to select CBTC.
Arti
Would you have expected him to say otherwise?
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not" :-)
[Would you have expected him to say otherwise? ]
Actually 28% weight was given by MTA.
Arti
Actually 28% weight was given by MTA.
You've got to love those Neymann-Pearson weightings. :-)
That's all we get :-)
But seriously, MTA is a government agency, what else could they pick?
Arti
Again, to many here are prone to toss out 'facts' and 'numbers' without any substantiation. I'm not looking to give you a hard time about this but you are not seeing the braorder picture. The signal system on the carnarsie line and the lexington line and others are too old and too outmoded to move trains into the 21st Century. I'm sure we could have opted for a simpler - cheaper system. The point is, if you are going to replace the system and if you intend it to support the new control center, then CBTC WAS the way to go.
(I'm sure we could have opted for a simpler - cheaper system. The point is, if you are going to replace the system and if you intend it to support the new control center, then BTC WAS the way to go.)
It's the way to go on cost too. In my four months in signals and systems, I've been shocked by the cost of conventional signal systems, which are still being installed. Imagine a computer without transistors and computer chips, just with zillions of wires. That's a conventional signal system. There are fewer and fewer companies, fewer and fewer signalmen, etc. The costs keep rising. Obsolete systems are NOT cheap. The cost of replacing the signal system at current prices exceeds the cost of the Dual Contracts in 1999 dollars.
Now, there are plenty of people programming computers, installing digital communications systems etc. Thus, while CBTC is more expensive now, it will be less expensive once they've got it down, because it will be tapping into a big and growing industry with a common set of skills. The NYCT had to go this way. The past is rusting away.
The actual communications-based train control is a nice add on. But you tell me how the subways can possibly match the 1-2 percent economywide average productivity gain without it, and thus provide fair value to riders and taxpayers with rising wages for employees. Packing more people in a car? No way.
Just hope it works.
But Larry, don't confuse implementation with architecture. If
wanted to replace the existing relay-based signal system with new
relays (they are still being made) and discrete wires, yes, the
cost would be phenomenal! (most of it because of the rising cost
of installation labor)
There are modern signal components which are solid-state but
use the established block signal architecture, with coded track
circuits, and cab signals if you like. They've been around for
a few decades, in various forms, and have a proven track record.
The TA is betting the farm on an industry fad, CBTC. In the
meanwhile, it's a 50 year holding pattern on service improvements.
It has occurred to me that, since NYC has two long-length isolated subway lines (the 7 and the L), the MTA could equip each with a different prototype system and compare performance, then make a decision to fit the whole system with the winning technology. Would that be a huge time (and money) waster?
I know someone mentioned the Franklin Av shuttle as a candidate too - how many trainsets (two-car trains, right?) are usually operating on the Shuttle at one time?
The Times Sq and Franklin shuttles also operate in an "isolated" route.
It's the way to go on cost too. In my four months in signals and systems, I've been shocked by the cost of conventional signal systems, which are still being installed. Imagine a computer without transistors and computer chips, just with zillions of wires. That's a conventional signal system.
There are other methods. Almost all of the factory floor automation that has been installed during the past two decades use something called Programmable Logic Controllers or PLC's. It replaces relay logic and hard wired logic with a computer and a single fixed program. This program takes as its input the ladder-logic schematic diagram of the relay network that it is simulating. This technology safely and reliably controls a wide variety of factories and manufacturing processes.
This is a middle ground technology. It is like the difference between a Robt. Moses style urban renewal project and a series of brownstone rehabs.
I can appreciate why railway signal manufacturers would be loathe to promote this technology. Its use would eliminate their very lucrative replacement part market. Moreover the technology is relatively inexpensive, quite robust, very reliable and has many several suppliers. The railway signal suppliers are after the big bucks.
(This is a middle ground technology. It is like the difference between a Robt. Moses style urban renewal project and a series of brownstone rehabs.)
NYCT could go with the middle ground. Then again, given that it might be 90 years until the new signals are replaced again...
given that it might be 90 years until the new signals are replaced again...
The middle ground system, based on a semiconductor implmentation, will have an equal chance of functioning in 90 years with a CBTC system based on the same technology.
The question is does a CBTC-based system bring additional performance capabilities than the existing block system, implemented with today's technology.
The signal system on the carnarsie line and the lexington line and others are too old and too outmoded to move trains into the 21st Century.
By what respect are these signal systems outmoded. Please, no vague generalities. :-)
...if you intend it to support the new control center...
What information does this new control system require from the signal system?
[The signal system on the carnarsie line and the lexington line and others are too old and too outmoded to move trains into the 21st Century. ]
According to MTA Lex line is in the state of good repair and doesn't need an upgrade currently.
Arti
And which one is you?
Arti
All 3, tank yew vewy muth.
>>> [CBTC = ATO] Sure it is. <<<
I do not think the two are interchangeable terms, but CBTC is a necessary component of ATO. In its simplest implementation, CBTC could just display information on a screen in the cab which indicated how far ahead and what speed a leading train was moving, and leave all throttle and brake decisions to the T/O. In a practical application it would also suggest the best speed for smooth operation, and of course the next thing is to have it automatically operate the throttle and brakes, which is ATO (as far as the T/Os job is concerned).
Tom
ATO is independent of CBTC, remember GC shuttle ATO test.
It just makes ATO easier...
Arti
>>> ATO is independent of CBTC, remember GC shuttle ATO test <<<
Of course that is true, but the GC ATO test was really a very simplified ATO. It was more like elevator technology since there was only one vehicle moving on one closed track. That technology could not be transferred directly to a line with multiple trains.
Tom
Which leaves the T/O to be a forward observer (with the option of retaking manual control of the train in emergencies or when directed by Command Center).
Refer to the glossary. Most of your questions can be answered here.
No. ATO means that the train is run automatically, with little human intervention necessary. It is what PATCO and WMATA (Washington) have had for a long time. ATO does not require a specific kind of signalling system - only that the wayside equipment must be able to relay signals directly to the train, so the train can decide what to do. It can be used with either fixed-block or moving-block signalling.
CBTC is moving-block signalling. To explain moving-block, I'll have to explain fixed-block...
With fixed-block, there are fixed sections of track, called blocks, that either contain a train or are empty. To maintain safe distance between trains, the signals are configured to assume worst-case scenarios - such as that a runaway train is hurtling toward a stopped train, and they are as close as possible.
CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control) makes those blocks move - so that instead of fixed sections of track, there is instead a moving "virtual block" behind every train. Each train knows the exact location of the train in front of it, so it can keep a safe distance. Furthermore, speed info is also communicated, so if a train is stopped or slowing down, moving trains behind it must slow down and keep a further distance away.
ATO without CBTC is no more efficient than old-style signals. Only CBTC brings the speed and capacity benefits. It can do that because it makes the whole system more intelligent, eliminating the inefficiencies of fixed-block signalling. The MTA is spending billions on this because it is the only way to increase the speed and capacity of the system without digging new tunnels, which always costs more.
Nope!
CBTC is Communications Based Train Control and has nothing to do with automation as you describe it. Difference between fixed block is that the train spacing is determined with more parameters than distance between them.
Arti
WRONG
CBTC has absolutely nothing to do with replaceing human operators. CBTC is communications based train control. What it will do is edentify the exact location of a train to within 10 feet on straight track and 25 feet an curves. In this way CBTC can compute available space in the blocks ahead of the train and based on the track condition & configuration, adjust the maximum authorized speed accordingly.
Now, what I'd like to know is when CBTC comes into effect, will we get OPTO pay?
Actually I should say will THEY get OPTO pay, cause I'd be damned if I operate any more doors. Four years was enough for that crap.
Communications-Based Train Control.
Instead of fixed signals (red, yellow, green, etc.) which the train operators observe and follow, the computer (wayside, in the control center) knows where each train is relative to fixed locations and to other trains, as the trains communicate with the computer via digial radio transmission. So, instead of fixed blocks governing train movement, trains can be spaced closer together. There are redundancies and failsafes to ensure safety.
Let the Federal Transit Administration tell you more.
Here's a whole Web site dedicated to CBTC.
Thanks Mr.Glickman from Radio 88.
And BTW. Please make shure when the R-143 testing on the (L) say that on the air so like that MTA have a new subway car as people think about the R-142/R-142A is the only new car by the MTA.
And how did you get the link on to your posting?
Links are posted using HTML code. The code to post a link is as follows:
<a href=http://www.awebsite.com> Link text here
Other things, such as formatting, are inserted with other HTML tags. There are several HTML primers out there on the web that will help you with this. Note: Since the post will be part of an automatically created HTML document, you don't need to put in headers, titles etc. that you would put if you were writing an HTML document from scratch; only formatting codes are necessary.
Dan
Sorry, Q46... I'm pretty limited to the weather when I'm on the radio. Occasionally I can slip in a transit remark like "it's a nice day to ride the Q over the Manhattan Bridge for that great view!"
To get a link in a post, you have to manually code the HTML. Select "View Source" on your browser and you'll see the code.
The other two posts describe it, but I figured that I'd give you a second option.
Make sure to replace the following figure:
Replace & with <
(it wouldn't post otherwise).
Type this in:
&a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk">this text here will be the link&/a>
And it'll look like this:
this text here will be the link
Simply replace news.bbc.co.uk with the URL (remembering to include the http:// and the www. if applicable) and replace the "this text here will be the link" with whatever you want.
And that's it.
COFFEE=BEER
Next time, use < for your <, > for your > and & for all of your & needs.
There's also " for ". If you know your HTML, you'll figure out the use for it.
[COFFEE=BEER ]
Mind you explain me? It's obvious, why would anyone kill oneself with coffee?
Arti
Coffee is actually equivalent to beer?
No way, & don't you forget it! :P
Coffee Makes you crazy while beer can make you drunk.
(COFFEE=BEER)
BEER=NUTS.
Yeah, I read this during my morning beer break!!
Are you saying like this.
&a href="http://NYCsubway.org">this text here will be the link&/a>
Almost.
You typed:
http://NYCsubway.org
Actually you should have typed http://www.nycsubway.org with no caps. Don't forget to type in www. (remember that not all websites use the www)
Don't actually type the & sign. Replace it with < instead.
And the "this text will be the link" part, well you can put anything you want in this part like "proff for Salaam" or "Click here", etc.
The www does not need to be used for this site. As for the domain, it is not cap sensitive. The rest of the URL is.
[The rest of the URL is]
No, you're incorrect.
Arti
No, you're incorrect.
How am I incorrect? Unix systems are case sensitive. There are very few servers that run NT, which is not case sensitive.
Try it. It's an issue of web server implementation, usually they are case insensitive.
Arti
You mean like this.
this text here will be the link&/a>
Yes, but don't forget to close your HTML, or everything following an unclosed HTML tag will have the same properties. Your unclosed HTML caused all text following it to be part of the link. It started off as the the color for an unvisted link in your browser and changed to the visited link color when the link was visited. On my browser all the text following the your HTML is in red.
Like this
you can also change the fonts color < font color=blue >
make sure you don't leave out any space.
....AND make sure you CLOSE your HTML tags
Peace,
ANDEE
Now here's a question: Isn't practically any form of train control communication-based? Colored lights along the tracks are a form of communication, as are voices on the radio. Even the sending of pieces of paper telling where trains can go is communication.
It is but aren't there a lot of acronyms (especially those trying to sound like something cool) somewhat not that accurate.
Arti
If ou had people with smoke pots spaced evenly along the Port Washington line putting morse code signals in the air that would be a form of communication too - but to be practical, we have to accept certain assumptions about modern systems...
Ron, this time more serious, please!
Arti
CBTC is Communication Based Train Control. It is a method of signalling trains without using fixed signals. There is a display inside the cab which is controlled by a central computer that takes data on train positions and determines how fast trains can move and how far apart they can be. It then sends the appropriate signal to the T/O and the T/O moves the train.
Dan
I think the Philly Elevated is going CBTC with the M-4 cars.
TransitChuckG
No. We're not lucky enough for that. We're just getting ATC on the MFL.
With CBTC will they be able to increase the train speeds?
I sure hope so, maybe they'll eventually take away all those annoying Grade Timers and Wheel detectors.
With CBTC will they be able to increase the train speeds?
There are several ways to increase NYCT train speeds. The basic problem is that NYCT's current brakes do not perform up to the specifications required by the existing block signal system.
Rather than bring the braking system up to 1932 standards or recalibrate the existing block signal system to compensate for reduced brake performance, the TA chose to effectively reduce maximum speed.
Yes, a CBTC system that is designed for the greater stopping distances of todays brakes would, like any other signal system so designed, permit faster operation.
which cars can handle it?
are the r62's CBTC ready?
Only the R-143s are designed for CBTC. At the moment, the wiring is in the eight cars that have arrived, but the equipment isn't.
That doesn't mean that other car classes can't, or won't, get CBTC equipment. While CBTC is more likely only to be installed in unitized carsets (R-44, 46, 62, 62A, 68, 68A, 142, 142A) due to cost considerations, it is technically possible to install the equipment in just about anything. In fact, when CBTC tests were conducted on the Brooklyn IND express tracks between Church Avenue and Seventh Avenue, R-42s were used. The equipment was housed in the cabs.
David
I had heard from several TOs I knew back in the 70s that the R-46 (and in theory the R-44) was ATO-capable (the controller had an ATO position) but when those cars came online, the TA was flat broke and couldn't afford the rest of the technology to implement it. Those cars were designed for Second Av, but we all know that story. (BTW, I thought the original consoles in the 44/46 were so cool -- the controllers they replaced them with are ugly as poop.)
I believe the technology was referred to as the "p-wire." Others with more knowledge of this can elaborate...
As of now, none.
What is the MBTA referring to when they mention the future "Silver Line"? Is it a new transit way for buses? (I can't imagine it being another subway line. Thanks to the Big Dig and South Station, there's no way it could possibly fit in this vicinity.) C'mon! Tell me! :>
It's A Bus line With articulated Neoplan buses
It's "bus rapid transit" (sort of). Read all about it here.
Did you read this, Steve (Baumann)?
Interesting concept. I watched the 9 minute video. Now I'll have to get used to BRT standing for "Bus Rapid Transit" :(
The use of the Tremont St subway is intriguing. And the buses are supposed to be dual mode - electric underground, low-emissions fossil fuels above ground.
Washington St is going to be reconstructed to accommodate the new buses. I guess this is the Orange Line Elevated's long overdue replacement. Problem is, on Washington Street, even though they're going to have pre-emptive traffic lights in favor of the buses, it'll suffer from double parkers, and I'm not sure how the bus "bunch up" phenomenon will be resolved.
--Mark
I see it every time I arrive in Penn Station or waiting for a train on the Penn Station platform. I see signals for the LIRR trains. It looks to be either like double red or green signals. Anyone know why they are double? Thanks.............
First of all Penn Station signals count as dwarf signals so for them to give a CLEAR aspect they must give a double green. Else the aspect is SLOW CLEAR. Secondly, most colourlight home signals have two or more signal "heads". Even thought a Penn Station signal is one unit, it usually needs to display two lights (G/R, Y/R, G/G, R/Y, etc) so therefore you always need two lights displayed and STOP is shown as R/R. If there was only one R shown detection of a burned out light would be hindered.
Ride the subways long enough you'll see all the double signals you could want! Double signals also necessary to show route indications, for reasons too complex won't tell the whole story, Jersey Mike gave you one good one already.
The siganls in Penn Station are Zone A Amtrak signals. Giving Zone A Amtrack indications. Y/Y Approach Slow, Flashing Y/R Advance Approach, Y/Flashing G Approach Limited, G/R Proceed, R/R/Y Restricting, R/R Stop. LIRR Zone C signals start at Harold Interlocking.
R/R/Y or R/Y are RESTRICTING.
Technically they are not "high" signals, right? they are dwarves, and have less permissive indications....
That's why G over R is Medium-clear and not Proceed.
G/R on a dwarf is SLOW CLEAR. G/*R* is MEDIUM CLEAR.
Oops, you're right. Brain fade.
on dwarves:
G, G/R = slow clear
*Y*, Y/R = slow approach
Y, R/Y = restricting
My other points still stand...
How are LIRR aspects and indications different?
Wasn't the LIRR Pensy-controlled for a time?
The LIRR was Pensy controled for a long time. The LIRR still uses PRR signal aspects w/ PRR position light signals. Amtrak became part of NORAC and has changed it's signaling system over time. Basically there are signals you can see on Amtrak that you won't see on the LIAR.
No, Penn Station signals are regular 2-head colour light signals, and their aspects can be found in the NORAC signal guide. There is a second red light to make sure that you can still seen the signal if the top one burns out. These signals go up to the end of the tunnel and are also used in the Atlantic Ave tunnel in Brooklyn.
These were the only places on the PRR system that had color light signals rather than position-light.
Someone needs to post the link to the picture again. They have two yellows side by side, if they're the actual platform signals...
For the sake of accuracy, I had to pull out the old LIRR Rule book to get a difinative answer. According to the LIRR Rules 281 and 281A you are incorrect. According to those rules. Clear is G/R. Absolute clear are the same colors but flashing.
on a dwarf?
I do not believe that the signals in the river tubes are considered dwarf signals.
Yeah, I checked my diagram and they are considered high signals. However, the presence of a double green clear either means NYC signal or a dwarf signal. Maybe the poster was confused as to the presence of a double green clear as I have never seen one in the Penn Station complex.
However, the presence of a double green clear either means NYC signal or a dwarf signal.
Amtrak high color position lights don't count? They're NORAC, too.
Mark
An Amtrak CPL is not a double green clear signal. Double green clear is getting a clear indication on the top head and a clear on the bottom head. On an Amtrak CPL this would entail 4 green lights.
We may be having parallel conversations, I was speaking of the station _platform_ signals...
It doesn't surprise me that the _tunnel_ signals are "high", but how about the other ones; Are they up where they are simply for visibility/space requirements?
Thanks to Peggy for planning and guiding us from Brooklyn to Port Jefferson to Bridgeport to Manhattan. She will no doubt give the details to Subway-Buff to post.
I decided to post this myself. Gary and Rosanna Toshu and I met at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn and took the 1018 to Jamaica. The wait at jaamica was greater than shown on the schedule so we got a chance to see the air train construction. We boarded the 1102 to Huntington. Unfoprtunately this train was also an old MU. The Huntington Station was very impressive with lots of stained glass and lots of p[ictuires were taken. AT Huntigton we waited for the Port Jeff Train and top my delight we enjoyed a bi-level. We arrived at Port Jeff and to my surprise we met Chu-Chu Bob who was on the same train in another car. We walked uphill one block for some food at a local diner then walked downhill to the ferry .(Thanks, Thurston for that good advice!). Along the way we browsed many old homes and churches and found a pleasant shopping area and got some ice cream before heading on the ferry to Bridgeport. The ferry was a large boat comparable in size to the Baretti Class of the Staten Island Ferry. Our boat had a unique feature-- the bow lifts up for car entrance and drops down after leaving Port Jeff. We arrived at Bridgeport- the train station is a half block away(on foot) from the Ferry. We just missed the train and while waiting an hour decided to go to Grand Central rather than Stamford, Fordham, etc.
I took plenty of pictures and will e-mail them to those wanting the pix as soon as I download to PV and do any needed retouching or editing .( I'd send to our illustrious webmaster, but he is stacked up with work and might not be able to post them soon (not a complaint!).
I will be planning other trips- I'll have subwauy-buff post the info. I am working on an all-day Philly Trip via NJT/SEPTA, and an underground art Gallery trip where we'd explore the various art installations in the system. For that tour the agenda would be kept secret except for the starting time/place. This tour would include stations such as Cortlandt, World Trade, Canal IND, 59th BMT/IRT, 7 line, G line, J line, etc.
Thansk to all who came.
Which ferry was it? There are two boats that are about 15 years old, the Park City and the Grand Republic, and one's that just a couple of years old, the P.T. Barnum.
We rode the Grand Republic.
Sounded like fun, wish I could've been there. I'm curious to see the pics. And how fast was that MNRR run from Bridgeport? How much did the ferry cost?
It was fun.
The ferry cost $13.75 (pedestrian, one-way).
Wow! That costs more than the Atlantic Highlands ferry!
That's the one-way fare. Round Trip is much cheaper per ride as are the other plans.
Round trip pedestrian is $18.25.
ferry schedule and fares
Gary and Rosanna Toshu and I
Clarification: "Gary and Rosanna, Toshi, and I (Peggy)..."
I had a most enjoyable time talking with all four of the above once I joined them in Port Jeff. I couldn't get to Flatbush by 10:18, so I took the train from NYP that they joined at Jamaica. I was in the front car at the railfan window getting video of the double slip switches as the train entered the station, and I thought I saw Peggy on the platform near the middle of the train. At Huntington I stayed at the front to get video of our MU train moving into the yard while the double-decker moved up to the platform just a few feet behind. I looked for SubTalkers in the first two cars, but they were in the third.
Toshi doesn't do SubTalk, but has read much of the nycsubway.org website with great interest.
It was a very good trip, and I thank Peggy for organizing it.
Bob
Glad to hear you folks had fun & am looking forward to seeing the photos. I've done the ferry ride several times, incl. the last trip of the day which is a "cruise to nowhere" in the Summer. They put a band on board and it's just great on a warm summer's night. I've also just lunched on the pier at Port Jeff. It's a nice area to just hang out of a while.
Mr t__:^)
For any one wanting the photos, Peggy will make available a CD for a donation of a Padded CD mailer and $5.00, to cover postage and the CD. You will also receive a freeware program designed to help your CD-ROM drive read a CDR disk(UDF-Reader) from Adaptec. Please e-mail me and I will forward your snail-mail address to Peggy. This is the only post on subtalk for this.
CD-R disks can be formatted in standard CD-Data format and don't need any special readers.
If anyone wants a CD please e-mail me and I'll forward to Peggy. Please enclose a pre-addressed, padded CD mailer and $5 for postage and the CD.
Question: How do I email a pre-addressed, padded CD mailer to you?
I did not want my snail-mail on the site. The e-mail is to gert my snail-mail address. I sent you an e-mail response.
What is so bad with snail mail. At least it can't be hit with a virus. No one knows the rath of God if the Postal Inspectors catch someone tampering with the mail. They don't understand Plea Bargin/
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
I believe I read that back in the 70s when the 63 St connector was first planned, it was planned that it would be a part of a brand new line in Queens. Is this true? If so, where would it have gone, relative to the existing lines (it'll help me picture it better)? Any similarties between the new planned line and anything in the IND 2nd system plans? Also is there any source that has diagrams or other further reading/info about this?
Or course, if this line was indeed planned, it's obvious that it went down the same shithole as 2nd Ave.
They were going to have a super express line running parallel to the Queens Blvd IND. After 21 St, Continental Av would have been the next stop. It would have connected to the 2nd Av line, as well as the Broadway BMT as is now.
Now that would have REALLY helped things. If you took the people east of Forest Hills off the current Queens Blvd line, it would allow for much more service.
Some people refered to it as the "Super Queens Express". If fact, for a short while, I changed my handle to Super Queens Express. When another subtalker told me if made me sound like a transvestite prostitite, I reverted back. Should the line ever be built, I'll change my handle at that time. (Don't count on it though!)
Not true. The 63rd street line was suppose to have six stops. Lexington av,Roosevelt Island, 21st st, Northern Blvd, Woodside and 71-Continental av lower level. The Northern Blvd stop was a transfer to the Queens Blvd and Queensboro Plaza[ via an elevated walk way]. The Woodside station was of course a transfer to the LIRR and Flushing trains. The Continental av stop was to be a grade separating station with trains using a lower level to and from the 63 street route. To bad this line was never built as conceived.It would have been a great way to funnel riders to Manhattan away from the Queen blvd line while adding new services to the system even with out a Second avenue line. What we have today[63 st connector]to me is just somebody's idea of fixing a dumb mistake after the FEDS involved[witholding funding until the MTA got their act together;see 63 street tunnel constuction] Maybe on day it may get built,but don't wait on it. -kame
I don't blame you for grumbling. But it's spilled milk, as they say; we got a decent connection and some new service out of it, and the other aspects are still physically possible. Budget and time will determine these things.
It was supposed to run on the LIRR ROW from the Sunnyside yard to around Forest Hills, rather than running parallel to the IND.
The line would have gone alongside the LIRR main (through Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens). Originally planned as one track, later two, the tunnel would have still connected to Queens Blvd to replace the G.
There are turnouts (or so I hear) in the new 63rd Street Connector to a proposed subway yard at Sunnyside, which can also be used if this bypass was built.
(The line would have gone alongside the LIRR main (through Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens). Originally planned as one track, later two, the tunnel would have still connected to Queens Blvd to replace the G.)
According to the 1969 Plan for the City of New York, the Queens Super Express -- service to Eastern Queens using the LIRR tracks was one alternative. Another was a new subway line along the Montauk Division ROW to serve southwest and southeast Queens.
In Manhattan, half the 63rd Street trains were to turn down 2nd Avenue, with the other half going down 6th Avenue. Half of the 2nd Avenue trains were supposed to hook over the Broadway Line (ie. the Stubway), with the other half continuting on 2nd Avenue.
or am I the only one he with no PC ?
No, I have G3 Mac.
right thats what i got with a purple finish
Quadra 610 makes me a card-carrying member of the Church of the Fruity Computer (CFC) but I make my living on Billyware ... I guess that makes me an official heretic. :)
Some new kind of a macintosh computer ???
Antique ... system 7.5.5 ... does what I need, doesn't respond to windows viruses. :)
I'm only a step or two ahead. I have a Mac CLONE from Motorola
Heh ... the Church of the Fruity Computer (CFC) welcomes ALL denominations but our favorite is the thousand dollar bill ... Terrible Steve sure put a stop to that sheet fast. LOL
I use a self-built Pentium III 500mz PC with 128MB Ram.
There's nothing wrong with a Mac, except if you buy a MAC and a PC that are compariable, you will pay about a grand more for the MAC. It's kinda like buying a Roll-Royce when all you need is a small sedan.
Both do the same job, but a greatly different price.
I use a self-built Pentium III 500mz PC with 128MB Ram.
Did you steal my computer? I have the exact same thing :-)
Down to the self-building.
>>Down to the self-building.<<
Now see here, I built my own computer. I have a 933 MHz Pentium III, 768 MBs of SDRAM, firewire, Voodoo V graphics card, etc. and it purrs like a kitten.
(Both do the same job, but a greatly different price.)
Ah, but a Mac puts you in the counterculture. Unfortunately, I'm too cheap for that. I can't afford a Volvo either. Well, I can, but we're too cheap.
We've got an IMAC, one of the first models. Works fine.
Don't know where you got your figures from. Have you ever even tried a Mac?
Yes, I've tried a Mac, including an I-Mac. The figures came from an article in the Baltimore Sun Plugged In section on Monday. The writer wasn't trashing the Mac, just comparing it price-wise with a comparibly equipped Dell PC.
Don't know where you got your figures from. Have you ever even tried a Mac?
How does trying a Mac make any difference in how much a person thinks it costs?
yea i am also lookig for a good PC laptop hopefully under $800 trying to decide which model to choose !!
I know that Kevin Walsh own a Mac. I contacted him one time and he told me that he owns a MacIntosh. I don't know what a MacIntosh laptop sells for but you might want to look at their website for more information.
BMTJeff
right !!but the laptop was going to be a PC !! so i can do some voicetalk etc...
Can you do voicetalk on a MacIntosh?
BMTJeff
Of course you can, some just can't figure it out.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can tell salaamallah that he can do voicetalk on a MacIntosh.
BMTJeff
ok i own a 1997 iMACg3 how do you do voicetalk on this computer ?? & whre do i go to do this send me this information to my
E mail because i am really having headaches my son talks to his future wife on his homemade PC but i am limited to
Yahoo Messenger text only !!! So what do i need to ""figure out""
I was told only PC IBM computers can do VOICE TALK !!! right ??????????????
salaamallah:
Go to Apple's website at and they might be able to help you out with your question.
BMTJeff
ok i own a 1997 iMACg3 how do you do voicetalk on this computer ?? & whre do i go to do this send me this information to my
E mail because i am really having headaches my son talks to his future wife on his homemade PC but i am limited to
Yahoo Messenger text only !!! So what do i need to ""figure out""
It's kinda like buying a Roll-Royce when all you need is a small sedan.
In this case it's more like paying for a Rolls-Royce when all you get for that is a small sedan. Better to get the one priced like a sedan.
Many Macs here....ranging from an SE/30 to an iBook.....Windows by day, but when I want stuff to work I'm on my Mac.
There's a program called Virtual PC that allows you to open up Windows on a Mac. I saw it at J&R. (There may be Virtual Mac, but they didn't have it when I looked)
thanks !! really do appreciate this ...
Hmmm...
I wonder if I'm the only computer geek here with 4 computers? (not counting the anicent laptop that won't start?)
1)Mac G4 - Once died/revived even stronger - currently waiting patiently for me to get to installing OS X on it.
2)heavily modified compaq PC - what I'm on now. 2 OSs (was 3), 40 gig, 310 ram... It took perhaps 72 hours to modify/rebuilt, whereas the mac (who's HD died) took all of 5 minutes to revive with a new HD)It does the trick until I start messing with X, though...
3)the 'test' machine. an old one with lots of different parts and HD's that I randomly take out, replace, and attempt to blow up. occasionally i use it for simple coding work.
4)the linux box... 3 years old, not too quick, but amazingly useful when needing to do unix-ish things...
I used to only have 2 monitors, but got 2 nice 17"s from a dot-com fire sale for dirt cheap.
So now that i've confessed to that insanity, I feel much better!
The Joe
Your not alone. I have 3 Macs and a 4th on the way. I currently have a Power Macintosh 8100/110, A Quadra 950 with Daystar PPC upgrade and Ram expansion, and Classic Mac IIFX. I have a Workgroup Server 9150/120 on the way that I am having upgraded to a G3/500. My 2 of my brothers are getting the 8100 and the 950 but the IIFX is a collectors item and I am keeping that. So the 9150/120 will be the main box of the house. I am a MAC man by nature.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
www.transitworld.org
OFF topic!
Four Macs... two 6200s, an IMac and a G3... plus an HP pc laptop (with our younger daughter at law school) and another PC that we use strictly for the internet at our NC house (daughter's surplus).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm going to be visiting Chicago, Toronto, and maybe Montreal this summer, and I was wondering if there are transit souvenir stores in these cities. I'm trying to get a map t-shirt for every subway I've ridden. I know you can buy a L map shirt at CTA's website, but its more fun to buy it on-location. I have no idea if the other two cities even have t-shirts, but I thought I'd ask.
Mark
I've seen modified MBTA system t-shirts in Boston's Downtown Crossing area.
Modified?
No, there aren't any souvenir stores. Especially in Toronto where they HAD a store in the main offices, but they closed it.
If you can get a shirt via any other means, then get it.
Yeah but you can often find subway map t-shirts at regular souvenir stores, especially in cities with well known systems, or where the style of the map is particularly distinctive (NY, London, Paris... I even have a Moscow metro t-shirt from a relative's visit)
Go visit their public affairs offices and ASK them. You'll be surprised, I'm sure.
A visit to CTA's offices in 1997 got me a few CTA calendars (some out of print) and an hour of great conversation with someone in public affairs comparing NY and Chicago.
--Mark
That's about the time I was in their office too. They were kind of somber when I went in and once they saw I was a genuine railfan they opened up; met George Krambles that day too.
Speaking of T shirts my sister in the Bronx sent me a Subway Series shirt so one will be seen here in Montana.
I wear mine both when I run and for bumming around. Brighton Express Bob sent it to me. Mine is black with orange, red, purple and blue trim and the two subway trains that traverse the ballparks. Is that the same kind you have?
One of the Subway Series shirts they had for sale featured an R-10 in its original paint scheme. Why they chose an R-10 is beyond me, as they had nothing to do with the Subway Series when they were around, but you all know how I feel about the Thundering Herd.:-) Naturally, I grabbed one.
I also photographed a "Pledge Your Allegiance" ad on a slant R-40 on the L.
They had R 10s during the Yankee=Dodger series in the 49,52,53,55,56 and the Yankee Giant in 51
On what line Bob? My impression was that the Yankee cars were Low V's that ran on the line than surfaces on 161st Street, today's #4 Line. That means that it might have run on the Brighton? They had Triplexes and Standards, didn't they. That leaves the old D train? Was that the R-10?
The R-10s ruled the A with an iron fist in those days, and the D was all R-1/9. In the mid-50s, 30 R-10s were sent over to the Eastern Division so crews could get accustomed to operating 60-foot SMEE cars in anticipation of the R-16s.
The closest the R-10s ever got to serving any of the three baseball parks was 155th St., and they normally skipped it at all times. You could transfer at Franklin Ave. to BMTman's favorite line and get to Ebbets Field that way.
Mine is white with both teams logo's and a red #7 train and silver #4---both of which look like R62's...somewhat.
I bought my Boston T Map at a Vendor inside the Harvard Sq Line on the Red Line for under $10.00 laST april. CTA and WAMTA have theirs on line
The Chicago Convention and Toursim Bureau sells T-shirts with "the official CTA color coded map of the elevated lines" at the Chicago WaterWorks Visitor Center, 163 East Pearson, Chicago, IL 60611, phone 312-742-8811.
They also sell the shirt via the web at
http://www.choosechicago.com/GIFTSHOP.HTM
then click on "click here,"
then search for"CTA."
Other items available from their website include CTA bus and train rollsigns, maps and cards as well as some replica posters (Illinois Central and CTA).
I'm not sure that all these items would be available at the Water Tower; some may be available only via the web.
You might also visit the Chicago Cultural Center downtown and the poster shop on Michigan Avenue not far from there. They also sell replica posters of classic railroad/transit ads featuring Chicago or nearby attractions(also sell magnets with the same images).
There used to be a City of Chicago store near the Navy Pier that sold items from the IRM and CTA, including small station signs, but that location closed. I was not able to find another with that broad a selection.
Good hunting!
When I get paid next week, I'm going to the shirt shop at the mall where I live and I'm going to get an original nostalgic #4 Sea Beach "T" shirt, light orange with green lettering and trim. They will know me by my shirt. Just for accuracy sake I will have the letter N put on both sides of the sleeve. How about that---as Mel Allen used to say.
How can you quote the All Time Yankee Announcer, when you hate the Yankees. What is going on your your Sea Beach Plates? Off to London Tomorrow to ride with Simon on the LONDON UNDERGROUND ON SATURDAY.
Hey, Fred, how about Red Barber? Ooooohhhhhh doctor!!
I'll still be at the 5:30 boat for those that still want to go to the wilds of Staten Island. I'm meeting Thurston at Flushing 4pm for the trip to the Ferry in anyone in intrested.
I will be cut off from the internet for the rest of the day so see you then.
I might c u guys. I plan 2 b in SI all day today.
Lou from Brooklyn met me just before 4 PM at Main Street at the end of the #7. It was the first time he had been their since they finished the East end of the station rehab (see the write up for the "3 Boro Field Trip" for photos of this station & other points of interest along the line). We had a pleasent Redbird ride to Times Sq. The train that left just before ours included #9327 still in her Subway Series colors ... she's being saved this way as an addition to the museum.
Lou's job this day took him in the field, so he ended up in Manhattan at 34th St. He used the opportunity to wait 1/2 hour for a chance to ride a R-142 for the first time. We arrived at Times Sq. 20 to 5 so we decided to wait a while for one of the two R-142s running on the #2. It was about time for us to leave when a R-142b (Bombardiar) arrived northbound. We run up & over to catch it for a one station ride to 72nd Street. Now we had just enough time to make the ferry. As liuck would have it a R-62b (Bombardiar) #3 Express arrived with a railfan window. The train did over 40 MPH a couple of time on our way to Chambers St. (it probally would have done a little better, but the operator saw us watching the speedometer).
At South Ferry we looked for Subtalkers outside the station & on the 2nd floor waiting area for the ferry (they were just about to close the door). Since it was raining steady & no one else was there we aborted the trip (a BusTalker who was the main reason Lou had scheduled this SIRT/MCI Cruiser trip in May had canceled out Monday)(in addition 2 or 4 other know interested SubTalkers had canceled, had the remaining 2 been at South Ferry we probally would have continued to SI).
We made our way to the World Trade Center and had a light supper in a pasta fast food place. Lou then caught a N, while I rode a very slow R-32 E to Penn Station. I was able to just catch a 6:50 LIRR train for home. My wife was very surprised to see me so early.
For those out there that still want to do this trip, please e-mail Lou directly, as he's willing to re-schedule it later this year.
AND Holy Beaches Batman, watch this Bat Channel for the "Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock & Long". I'll probally do it in June when it warms up again.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday I got to ride the new Acela train from Baltimore to Newark. It shaves 20 minutes off that journey (2:20 on regular "Northeast Direct" and 2:00 on the dot on Acela). Top speed in that stretch was reached in NJ between Trenton and New Brunswick, at 135 mph (the engineer came on the PA system to announce it). Very sleek looking and smooth ride. My only suggestion is that they really need to improve the speed through station limits (for instance approaching Wilmington station the train crawls along the viaduct). Getting the average speed up will boost performance a lot. Metro Park station in NJ really needs a rebuild as well (into a 2-island configuration. It wasn't so bad on the weekend but during rush hour it has to be hell getting the Amtrak trains over to the local track and back to make the station stop) And getting Metro-North to improve their ROW from Shell-New Haven will help immensely on the NY-Boston section, from what Todd Glickman tells me...
Also the Newark Airport station is coming along pretty well. There are monorails parked all the way out to end of track adjacent to the corridor station.
-Dave
MetroPark isn't worth the upgrade. Most of the trains that stop there should be dropped.
Thanks for the comments, Dave. And I'll add another suggestion -- lower the interior lights! They are too bright, even during the day. At night, they're WAY too bright, and eliminate any hope of seeing out the windows. I have another roundtrip BOS-NYP next week, and we'll see if three out of three experiences will be good.
"I'll add another suggestion -- lower the interior lights! They are too bright, even during the day. At night, they're WAY too bright, and eliminate any hope of seeing out the windows."
Todd,
On my trip last week, they turned off some of the lights in the car...just like an airplane does. They were off for most of the journey, whether it was on purpose or by accident I don't know though. They usually came on at every station stop. -Nick
Increasing average speed isvery muh to the point. I wish we could get Amtrak, SEPTA and NJ Transit to universalize, as much as possible, at least four tracks from Philly to NY. It would also be nice to have that to DC, but Amtrak would need a lot of cash to throw more bridges across waterways to do that.
Also, MTA could help by finishing their catenary replacement project on the New Haven Line so all four tracks can be in service again.
I saw the trainset you rode yesterday at Seabrook, MD. The power in front was 2014, and the one at rear was 2019.
Chaohwa
Yesterday, after busy day in Branford, I stopped by Newark Penn Station to buy my NJT weekly train ticket. (My home station doesn't have vending machine and ticket office still doesn't take credit cards).
While I was there I looked at the departure board and I noticed that Acela to NYC will be on Track 2 in 5 minutes. So I got my ticket and went up to the platform. 5 minutes turned into 15 minute wait. And finally it glided in, then squeaked to the stop with train full of passengers. I took a peek into business class thru the window. It left after about 1 minute stop (maybe 30 people got off). Also I had quick glance into cafe car. It looked very spartan and was full of people.
And also noticed that some people can't tell Amtrak from NJ Transit. As usual (I see it almost every time I board in Newark or Metropark) some people tried to board it with NJT tickets, arguing with conductor to let them board, then backing off after hearing about price. (And at this time of day NJT does not venture onto track 2).
Must have been the later Acela, train 2254 was on time arriving at Newark at 3:40 and was on track 3. (Had to go down and up to get the PATH, so I'm sure of that.)
-Dave
Can SOMEBODY e-mail me when Newark gets their new light rail cars????? It's driving me nuts that i am STILL waiting for those cars to run the rails, already!
E-mail me at: carlwal@hotmail.com
Gracias (Thanks),
CWalNYC
Um, you arent holding your breath, right?
The worst part is that they have them but aren't using them. It looks like they still have a few weeks work to finish at the new stations. Maybe they will change equipment when those stations are ready.
I got an email today from one of my railfan/LRT industry folks saying it looks like the end of August is the new schedule date for the changeover to LRV's, with a celebration on Sept. 1st. As always, take this with caution.
And again, the rumors have come that SFMuni is supposed to get the surplus cars. Less the four going to Phillipsburg.
I'll beleive it when it happens, but I will ride them as often as I can until then.
Then I can ride PCC's all I want in Brooklyn. SHRT 70 is coming next week. Let you all know when it comes so you can witness the unloading.
Do the traction motors on the R131/R110B cars sound like the R142's or the Boston 01800 series cars? Do those Boston 01800 series cars sound like the R142s or similar to them? I've been asking around, but no one responded. Thanx to anyone who knows and can tell me.
CWalNYC
The boston 01800 series traction motors sound like the Rohr metro cars.
They sound different.
Another thing concerning the R110B/R131:
Are those cars EVER coming back in service? I have yet to ride them, and I am anxiously awaiting their return to service before the R143s come in. Let me know anything that comes up about it.
CWalNYC
For those of you that think Dayton is just Buses and ETBs. Think Again!! Dayton have a subway systerm. It have 8 Subway lines. And did you know that Dayton is the #2 of the largest subway systerm in the World. Just behind New York City Subway systerm. And the fares to ride the subway is Cheap!! You just have to pay $1.00 to ride the Subway systerm. Somebody must go to Dayton to take photos of the subway systerm!! Here's a link to the web page on the Dayton subway systerm.
Dayton Subway Systerm.
And here's a link to the Subway Map of the Dayton Subway systerm.
Dayton Subway Map.
Hope you like the info I fround.
I sorry about that.
Dayton Subway Systerm.
Dayton Subway Map.
@... got any pictures of the rolling stock there ??...............LOL.............. he he he he he he he he !!!
The map for that system looks like the map for the moscow metro
And one of the train photos on the top page looks like it's from Paris!!
LOL!
The site is FAKE, a HOAX, a work of fiction and parody. Dayton has no subway whatsoever.
It have really funny though.
The pig is wrong dayton DOES has a subway system
YOU are wrong....Dayton has NO subway system....the site is PARODY, SARCASM, HUMOR.....meant to be funny.....understand?
Peace,
ANDEE
Read the DISCLAIMER
Looks real that's the thing to make you think it's real.
BUT IT'S NOT!
It looks so cool, I was fooled myself. But seriously, Dayton could have a subway system. All it takes is cash (somewhere in the $2 Billion figure, maybe more) and voila, a system that would make New York cry.
You thought it was real.
Peace,
ANDEE
But it sure is a great looking web site...
Awww...
Why did you have to pop the balloon?
Awhile ago I got an email from the "CEO" of MVRA looking for a 1976 issue of The Third Rail that had an article about a light rail debacle in Dayton.
Of course I looked at their site and was just knocked out. Only the fact that I knew Dayton missed out on rail kept me digging until I found an admission (under "legal", IIRC) that it was a parody.
Beautiful site. A lot of (allegedly real) transit sites should look so professional.
>>>Beautiful site. A lot of (allegedly real) transit sites should look so professional.
Paul: My sentiments exactly! :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
did anyone say TROLLEY BUS ? in dayton ohio right folks ??............
Yes, MVTA (Miami Valley Transit Authority) has new Trolley Buses (or, as the industry now refers to them, ETB's (Electric Transit Bus). They were built by Electric Transit, a partnership of AAI Corp and Skoda Works. The bodies are built in Hungary and finished by AAI at their plant in Hunt Valley, Maryland. Electric Transit landed a 232 coach order from MUNI last year. The Trolley Coach is coming back!!!!!
Also MUNI have a order of 33 Articulated Trolley Buses with Skoda works. And SEPTA is going to get 52 40 Foot Trolley Buses from Skoda.
When is SEPTA getting these new Skodas? Are they going to retire the old AM Generals on routes 59, 66, 75?
Mark
i know that septa will get 50-60 new trollery-buses in 2003.
Are they going to retire the old AM Generals on routes 59, 66, 75?
yes these new trackless-trollerys will replace the current Am Generals
they also going to use on the 29,and 75 too.
SEPTA would get them by 2003. And the AM Generals look like CRAP right now. Think god they getting rid of them.
I know they look all junky, but I have to admit, they grow on you after awhile. I'll miss them.
Mark
Who is Skoda, and why didn't SEPTA go back to Neoplan for the trolleybus order (more on this in Bus Talk)?
Go to www.skoda.cz
Who said SEPTA has actually ordered anything? There is an item in its proposed capital program but that is still out for public review. I think actual order(s) are a couple of years away, since the vehicle hasn't even been developed yet.
I'm venturing to say that Neoplan USA could, if they got the license from the original Neoplan (Gottlob Auwarter GmbH & Co. KG) in Germany for the N6121 (low floor articulated hybrid trackless trolley). I don't know if Neoplan USA is considering it though, but maybe they are and it's taking forever, just like it took Neoplan USA 2-3 years before they got the N516 Starliner. On the other hand, I'm sure there are plenty of electrical equipment suppliers here that would be glad to help Neoplan turn a Transliner into a Trackless. My apologies if anyone out there thinks this would have been better suited for Bus Talk.
I soppossed that SEPTA got sick on the neoplans.
i thought septa cancal the order from skoda.
Somebody obviously spent a lot of time on the site, getting the graphics just right. It looks real until you start reading it!
There are some great links buried in the site. Did you find this one about people getting announcers to read prank names at the airport?
http://www.twilight3d.com/humour/temp/
I hope no one missed The Glorious Pyongyang/Dayton Sister City Program. It's hilarious.
Mark
HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Someone fell for it....!!!!!!
they do have a trolley bus there !!!
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
May 26, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk!
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
It is stronly reccomended you enter the room and trobleshoot BEFORE Saturday night!
See this it how it all started!
If you encounter problems, e-mail
an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!
See that part?
Also, troubleshoot does not mean cancel the chat. But as you wisely pointed out, we should forget about it and leave last week at the last station.
Does anyone know a web site or a book in which I can find track maps of Penn Station? I know there's a web site with an outdated track map, but is there a more recent one out there?
Also, is there any source for complete timetable information, not only scheduled departures but things such as, what trains depart at a particular time for Sunnyside Yard, etc.??
I stood on various platforms and scetched it out once, and it was basically like the 1944 map posted on the web!
If you have a look in the Access to the Regions core study, you can find the track map for Penn Station.
http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/site/html/status/alternativeaa.html#
Find the link for Penn Station Today. I couldnt get a real URL, as the site is clogged up with JavaScript.
I dunno about schedules, with three railroads using the facility, and each having multiple schedule listings, that might be an interesting exercise for the reader:-)
This will work.
I often wonder why the platform between tracks 18 and 19 is so much wider than any of the others. Anybody know the answer?
18 has platforms on both sides, so it seems to me like there's room for an "18A" track, which was possibly planned and not built.
Yeah, because track 18 is a gaultlet track. They left out a track and replaced it with platform space. PS should have 22 tracks and rearranging that platform is the easiest thing they can go to alieviate platform congestion.
I caught the 11:05am train from Babylon to Jamaica, hoping this time it would be smooth (last time we crept after Lynbrook because we had to go via local tracks). The electric train of M-1/3's arrived 3 minutes late at Babylon (remember this is a starting point).
The ride was swift as we breezed through, really nice speed around Merrick and Freeport we must've been close to 80mph. But then a hard brake right after Lynbrook and I knew what that meant. Once again, we slowed to crawl and switched tracks to the Atlantic branch (Local) and crept to about Valley Stream. After that the pace picked up to around 50mph but nothing like the Montauk tracks. We arrived at Jamaica 5 minutes late (no big deal for the LIRR). But at Jamaica they had all the northern tracks (1-3) closed for yet more track work.
So we pulled in on 4.
Yet another dissapointment. So when does the LIRR actually use the express tracks between Jamaica and Lynbrook? I was really hoping to ride them today, I haven't been down there in over a year.
Well at least we got a fast ride up until Lynbrook. The Babylon express probably is one of the fastest LIRR runs, I just wish that it would've been fast the whole way.
"Wrap it and burn the slow orders and get outta my way!"
I noticed that St. Louis is installing updated entrance kiosks at the entrances to its new Metrolink stations. Have a look.
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/stlouis/stl-ml08.jpg
Ours should never have been torn down.
Of course, it is a lot easier to maintain the grand total of four kiosks that St. Louis has in their whole system than the myriad that New York would have to keep in good repair.
Mark
Hawker - Siddeley
What ever became of this Candian car manufacturer of Thunder Bay, Ontario ?
I assume they went "toes up" or maybe Bombardier had a hand in acquiring it. Any information on this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They were acquired by Bombardier. Where do you think they get their Thunder Bay plant from?
Did Bombardier acquire the whole company, including the aerospace portion? Hawker-Siddeley built the Hawker Hunter fighter-bomber of the late '50's-early '60's for Britain, Jordan and other allies, and the Kestrel jump-jet prototype-which became the Harrier.
They also built a lot of cars for Boston, and Toronto. And the first trijet to go into service, edging out the 727 by a few months. I don't know what happened to the Trident jets, I doubt they're still in service, they had a troubled start I think.
They also had a way cool logo, and a love for woodgrain vinyl :)
I forgot all about the Trident. Maybe we can find a few relics on some RAF base...
Did Hawker Siddeley use much, if any, of that fake wood panelling in the interiors of the various cars for the MBTA? I can't remember now...
I do have to agree that on some of the Toronto subway cars, most notably the H2s and H4s, had an obscene amount of that stuff. Hawker Siddeley's first batch of subway cars for Toronto had no fake wood in them at all but the later H5s and the H6s* (which ended up actually being built by UTDC because of the takeover) had a little, and it was rather tastefully used too.
-Robert King
As I recall, almost all the interior surfaces of the MBTA Blue and Orange line cars are covered in that dark fake wood panelling. It gives the cars a very dated look, and I've often commented that the car interiors feel like they should have shag carpeting on the floors. :-)
However, the UTDC cars on the Red Line use the light gray interiors similar to the rest of the Red Line fleet, with no fake wood paneling at all. Those cars also seem a bit dated, but more because of their advanced age than any particular interior treatment.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"However, the UTDC cars on the Red Line use the light gray interiors similar to the rest of the Red Line fleet, with no fake
wood paneling at all. Those cars also seem a bit dated, but more because of their advanced age than any particular interior
treatment."
You are referring to the Pullman-Standard-built cars, right, not the Bombardier cars?
I was referring to the UDTC cars in particular, but since the Pullman-Standards are almost identical, I think they look a bit dated as well. The Bombardier cars still look virtually brand-new.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think the fake wood is better then anything else that's been done on car interiors in the last 20 years. I don't like the tin can look of the 01800s and the bread type 8/r142 is awful on the inside
"However, the UTDC cars on the Red Line............Those cars also seem a bit dated, but more because of their advanced age."
advanced age? they were built in 1988 thats hardley an advanced age. they were built to look like the 01500/01600 rebuild of 1981 as they would be trainlineing with them.
I have to agree. A car builder or whoever is responsible for the design of subway car interiors could do far, far worse than fake wood.
I also have to agree about the interiors of the latest subway cars and other vehicles - they don't appear to have been designed to be appealing in any way to the people who ride in them. I know that some people do make strong arguments about functionality ovef form with respect to subway car designs but when you can pick and choose the colours of the interior panels, you might as well pick a colour combination that looks reasonably good. And remember, London Underground's 1938 tube stock, which is a classic in the world of industrial design, looked very good and worked very well with some trains lasting in service for 50 years in London, and some 1938 stock still continues to run on the Isle of Wight, so, if you're careful, you can have form and function in the same train.
-Robert King
I think the fake wood is better then anything else that's been done on car interiors in the last 20 years. I don't like the tin can look of the 01800s and the bread type 8/r142 is awful on the inside
I think fake wood looks ugly as hell whether it's inside a subway car or on a basement wall, and I personally love the looks of the 01800's. But this is all pretty subjective, so there's not much point in debating it.
"However, the UTDC cars on the Red Line............Those cars also seem a bit dated, but more because of their advanced age."
advanced age? they were built in 1988 thats hardley an advanced age. they were built to look like the 01500/01600 rebuild of 1981 as they would be trainlineing with them.
1988? Judging by their looks, I figured they were much older than that. Just proves my point, I guess. Even if they were only built in '88, they still look pretty ancient compared to the 01800's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hawker-Siddeley was not bought by Bombardier. See my other post earlier in this thread.
-Robert King
Hawker-Siddeley was absorbed into UTDC (the Urban Transportation Development Corporation) in approximately two stages where it began as a partnership with UTDC and then bought by UTDC so that they'd have their own manufacturing arm in house.
UDTC was then sold to SNC Lavalin who later ran into financial troubles and ended up selling what was basically their UTDC division, which included what was Hawker-Siddeley at the start of things, to Bombardier.
-Robert King
I'm temporarilly posting 15 photos of the R-143s. (That is if I get the HTML correct.) Feel free to download any or all. However, with the exception of Dave Pirrman, I'd appreciate it if they did not show up an any other websites. R-143 Pictures
The interior looks messed up plus it looks like a r-142 interior.
Of course it looks like an R-142. The MTA is returning to its old tradition of ordering similar A and B division equipment. The interior looks "messed up" because the shrink-wrapping and protective coverings are still there, not everything was fully installed, plus the lighting outside the car is much darker than the lighting within.
I jsut hope that the lights aren't that way. From the picture of the interior, I never ever want to suffer the fate of riding a 143, and also, if future subway orders are going to be like that, I'll hate NYC subway cars even more than I already do now.
I cant get to it
Click on the link, then when you see the "sorry page unavailble" page, click refresh and it should come up.
thanks
After seeing these photos and previous photos, it would appear that there is more than one interior color scheme for these cars. Another photo I saw showed white walls and green bench seats.
That had to be miscoloration of the print. All seats were periwinkle colored
Extremely cool, thanks Steve!
One question: in the photo you called druw_sw, what is that?
It looks like HVAC equipment, but isn't all that in the bonnets now?
I don't know yet, Jeff. It's clearly marked drum switch but I agree it looks like HVAC equip.
The HVAC is modularized in the roof of the car. There should be no HVAC equipment under the car. Sorry for the previous post.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. All the freon lines should
be in the bonnet. Maybe it's a coffee maker? Anyway, let me
know if you find out.
Good photos!
Cool photos. BTW, are the couplers manufactured by Ohio Brass? Because The Almond Joys, PATCO fleet, and The B-IV's all have Ohio Brass couplers and they look similar to it.
Thanks for the excellent photos, especially the ones that show the "guts" under the car. The console looks very similar to the consoles of the MBTA's Bombardier 01800's on the Red Line.
This may sound like a dumb question to the experts here, but doesn't AC traction negate the need for a resistor grid? (Assuming, of course, the R-143's use AC traction?) Maybe I need a refresher course on the differences between AC and DC traction. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I thought the grid is for the dynamic brakes.
Yes, the grid resistors are there to dump the energy if it
can't be regenerated into the contact rail.
The interior -- in 8108 at least -- looks like a subway version of the interior colors of the final series of GM fishbowl buses delivered after the MTA color schemes arrived. On the other hand, the metal grip poles and lack of anything under the bench seats kind of make it look like an IRT Low V that's been assimilated by the Borg :-)
Train Dude,
The item for 8108 side jpg is a duplication of the one before, cab interior. Is this a broadside shot of the exterior ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm in the mood for some B-Car side profile pictures. I'm still wondering if there is that window at the right end too look out from.
Cool beans! THANKS!
Thank you TD for the pics.
Question: Looking at the pic of the master controller, how is the forward/reverse switch operated? I didn't see an opening for a reverser there. Will it be key operated? Thanx.
I saw the pics. Once any of those cars reach the M line, I'm picking off! The master controller is in such an awkward position.
You're right about the master controller position Mike. No more switching hands when you're tired.
Also YOU KNOW that when these cars do hit the M line that OPTO on the shuttles will probably be implemented there. Noooo thanks.
Looks like I'll be heading for the Q express in the fall!
Wow,
Very snazzy piece of machinery. Thanks for the extensive pictures.
Marc
The exterior front end has too much black, and since the cab is full-width, all front windows will be dark. All you will see in a subway staions until the train is within a few feet of you are floating headlights and route LED.
As for the interior, all those slanted chrome grab-irons give it a cold and unfinished appearance. It's a glorified Fishbowl. I don't like back-lit advertisements as the only source of illumination either. Two full-length fluorescent fixtures on either side of the AC grills are best. The whole interior is a throwback to 1966.
Take another look at the interior shot. There is another oval shaped grab-handle in the center of the ceiling. This will allow customers to stand back to back on both sides of the car and all will have something to hold onto.
The ads are not backlit. There are a bunch of ceiling panels next to the lights that are hanging open, making it look funny, but the lighting is just like the 142's.
i think we shouldn't talk until we ride it to get full view and evaluation. its too early to tell if it is riders comfort or torture.
Perhaps you could suggest a color combination and ammenities that would please 100% of the customers.
Two words ... "bar car" ... (sorry, couldn't resist)
Sadly in your humor there is wisdom. While everyone has a different criteria for quality, the color of the subway car may be at the bottom of the list. Clean, well lit, quiet, comfortable - give em allt hat and color isn't all that important.
And free drinks ... don't forget the free drinks. Heh. You'll at least HOPEFULLY be pleased that I dropped the previous request for hookers. :)
But if there was one part of the scheme I think a LOT of people would be happier with, it'd be iron brake shoes and field shunts if the trains are as slow as everybody says they are. Remember, you're talking to a guy that used to be able to take curves on just four wheels per car instead of the usual 8. (grin)
The color scheme's fine; too bad it doesn't have a slant end! :o>
wayne
all that won't matter. since majority of humans are ignorant, many will look at something new and say it is nice they won't care if it is bad in color or not. the ones with sensitivity problems will complain with the intierior being too bright as were some 100,000 passengers that rode the R-142 and R-142A. As for that picture, because the cars were still in shrink rap and bubble rap, it is too early to tell if the car is good looking or not from the inside, you cannot tell if the car is bright or not because the lights are still covered. look again and you will see what i mean.
So let us understand your point. Those who care about the comfort and performance of a subway car over the color of the interior are IGNORANT. Those who think the interior color is of paramount importance are intelligent. Hmmmmmmmmmm - I'll need to think that one over. I'll get back to you.
I can just envision a news headline about a passenger going berserk because of the colors. It's not all that far-fetched: the condo community my parents live in is being sued by an epileptic because she claims the terra cotta roofs cause her to have seizures. It's a screwy world.
right !! a piece of new junk !! ( CRAP ) !!!
Kudos on the fine photos! Do they hve more than one color scheme? It would be nice if they did. Like the various colors of the 110As and 110Bs. Are they in married pairs or large sets of ABBA type cars? The bars in the interior look like the setup in the 110As. I like the extra bars by the doors. It should help keep "door Standers" from leaning over onto seated passengers. A feature on the R/44 and R/46s I've always liked. I hope the 110Bs can be integrated into the fleet some day with an upgrade. If so getting a consist with a 110B would be akin to winning a minor Lottery. Similar to hitting the rebuilt R/7 or bullseye lite R/9 or what ever it was, or the three seat R/10.
Again, nice shots!
avid
The problem with the 110B, of course, is that it is 67 feet long. It can't really be mixed in trains with longer or shorter rolling stock.
The R-110B is destined to the the R-11 of its era.
Salaam, I think Nat King Cole said it best in his holiday hit. To paraphrase his song:
.........Although it's been said - many times - many ways - Salaam - you are a total idiot"
Pardon me while I fall off of my seat.
Thank you.
Dan
oh why oh why don't i put the killfile on you? -Nick
despite his lack of common sense, despite his lack of logical thinking, despite his occasional showing of his darker side (not referring to his race, of course), salaam is way too much fun having around. ............ - just like the Joe palooka punching bag we had as kids.
"The whole interior is a throwback to 1966."
Well, I guess part of this would be true if the MTA has some (or all cars) with the seafoam green seats :-) But to be honest with you, while I agree it is not of the upmost importance part of the subway car, I do like the older appearance styles. After just visiting the Transit Museum on Tuesday, I would love to see cars with an aqua interior or orange doors with double-circle windows. I wouldn't mind seeing the Worlds fairs cars back in the aqua and white color scheme again, before they get retired...and maybe leave a few running as we approach the fall of 2004 in 3 1/2 years. -Nick
Very cool-looking car; yes, it looks too much like the R142 and R142a, but isn't it supposed to? Just like the R12/R14 resembled the R10, the R16 looked like the R17 and the R26/28 looked like the R27/30...some things never change. The front is very dramatic-looking.
Looks like two pictures have "collided" - the side and the cab pictures appear to be the same.
wayne
The big posters are up at most accessible stations (I saw one at Roosevelt Island). Starting May 29th, the elevator and escalators from the mezzanine to the surface at the Sutphin Blvd E J Z station will be closed. Why? Do to Airtrain construction. Don't worry, it's not for long, only until October 2003 (escalators come back Feb 2003). I will be a Sophomore in college by then.
Huh? Then how do you get to the Sutphin Blvd station? That is going to be a pain in the (bleep). How the hell are you supposed to get from LIRR to the E,J,Z? This is a major slap in the face for disabled people as well.
"Huh? Then how do you get to the Sutphin Blvd station? That is going to be a pain in the (bleep). How the hell are you
supposed to get from LIRR to the E,J,Z? This is a major slap in the face for disabled people as well."
I don't think so. Assuming that this is AirTrain related construction, the MTA and the PA will be integrating and improving access to the entire facility - well worth the wait. Besides, Jamaica-Van Wyck and Jamaica Center are accessible, and the latter is really not far away (a shuttle to it would be nice).
Go around the front to the Archer Ave side. Don't even have to cross the street. If want a slightly shorter walk outside you can exit / enter the station using the door adjacent to the bathrooms.
The big posters are up at most accessible stations (I saw one at Roosevelt Island). Starting May 29th, the elevator and escalators from the mezzanine to the surface at the Sutphin Blvd E J Z station will be closed. Why? Do to Airtrain construction. Don't worry, it's not for long, only until October 2003 (escalators come back Feb 2003). I will be a Sophomore in college by then.
Ridiculous. The ADA has its faults, but this is one instance where it could be used to good effect. I'd love to see someone get a court order under the ADA stopping NYCT from dragging its feet so absurdly.
I don't think it's the MTA. The poster appeared to implicate the Port Authority as the reason.
I noticed on weekdays people on the MBTA system are strange I saw this woman that kept on saying son of a bitch and the ad's in the trains sometimes have grafitti on them and there was this starbucks Ad that had grafitti saying Dude I can't afford the friggin cup of coffee. These systems that are old usually have grafitti. Try to use the commuter rail on weekends
Huh?
I use the MBTA Commuter Rail system every day. Weekdays, I commute to and from work. Weekends, I travel to/from Boston for leisure activities. The only difference is that on weekdays I have fellow commuters who are civilized, and on weekends there are noisy, rambunctious families, sports fans, and teenagers. I'll take rush hour rides over weekends any time!
Not everyone who rides any train anywhere has common sense. I don't think the time makes as big a difference as chance and probability. It all depends on who is in the car you board.
"the ad's in the trains sometimes have grafitti on them and there was this starbucks Ad that had grafitti saying Dude I can't afford the friggin cup of coffee"
Commuter rail isn't necessarily any better graffiti-wise. Lots of the ads in the vestibules of Chicago Metra trains have graffiti scribbled on them, most being "witty" comments on the product like the one on the Starbuck's ad. Not much scratchitti on Metra, though.
I saw 5302 in service recently on the MidTown Direct. It was on a train of all Comet IVs. Anyone else see the others floating about? I was unable to ride, it was leaving NYP while my train was arriving.
Tonight at 10PM, I observed two diseals towing either 3 or 4 R-142's (I was just waking up)at Tremont Avenue. One of the car numbers were 6579. Also 6311-6320 were making simulated stops S/B and 6301-6310 was in service two trains behind that.
today i rode 6326-35 and 6421-30 they ran very well. i didn't see 6301-10 i got off at times square. they run all night your saying?
No, they usually run until about midnight. After that, off to the yard they go.........
R142 #6301-#6310 & #6421-#6430 did ran around 3am in the morning last week & the day before i was heading to work i rode #6421-#6430 around 4am in the morning to manhattan.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation
6576-80 already been shipped?
They're up to car 6500 right now.
What?!? Damn! I was in the booth at USQ when I heard the whine of a diesel on the Lex about 8:45. I wish I could be at the railfan window to see what they were up to....
-Stef
OK. We're dreaming here. Don't even bother bringing up the budget. If it helps, just imagine your girlfriend or wife is a "mystical girl" like Jeannie or Samantha (or to our female subtalkers, mayybe pretend you are Samantha or a master-less Jeannie) and it could happen with just a wish.
So where shall we add all new subway lines in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx? Or if you just want extensions, well ya might as well make 'em long and fanciful. You could dig up some IND seccond system ideas, but I'd encourage you to think of some brand new ones too.
I'm gonna focus on Queens because (1) It's where I live and (2) It needs subway help.
QUEENS--to supplement Queens Blvd and Flushing lines, ammong others:
-----A new line, maybe the K, sharing the 14th St. corridor with the L, except that it breaks off after Lorimer St, then stays on Metropolitan Avenue (with a transfer to the M) all the way to Yellowstone Blvd, then turns there, crosses Queens Blvd (with a transfer to the QB IND of course), then follows Jewell Ave and 73rd Ave all the way to Alley Pond Park (a few blocks from my apartment.) Either make it four track or just give it limited stops.
-----A three or four track exention of the N, right through LaGuardia, over Flushing Bay, through College Point and Whitestone via 20th Ave (serving that whole shopping strip), then Willets Point Blvd and Bell Blvd until Bay Terrace.
-----An extension of the 3/4 Livonia Line down New Lots Ave, then Linden Blvd, North Counduit Ave, and Sunrise Hwy to the Nassau Co. line. Should include some provision to JFK Airport, maybe via Airtrain.
-----A new line, the X/Y trains, running out of 53rd St, then down the Lower Montauk LIRR. The X breaks off at Hillside Ave to join the F, the Y merges with the J/Z.
-----Extensions of the F/X to the Nassau line via Hillside, the E to Springfield Blvd via the LIRR Atlantic Branch, and the J/Y/Z to the Belmont Park LIRR area (just insdie NYC) via Jamaica Ave and Hempstead Ave
-----An extension of the 7 to Little Neck Pkwy via Roosevelt Ave and Northern Blvd.
-----Extend the Liberty/Lefferts line (with a new letter, maybe H) to merge with the E where Liberty meets the LIRR.
-----A Queens Crosstown line at Francis Lewis Blvd, extending directly into the Bronx (probably Throgs Neck.)
BROOKLYN
-----An extension of the 2/5 down Flatbush Ave, at least to Marine Park, or maybe even into the Rockaways.
-----South Brooklyn crosstown via Flatlands Ave, connecting the Canarsie L, the 2/5, and Coney Island.
BRONX
-----An extension of the 2nd Ave line (hypothetical itself, I know) through the South Bronx, ending at Throgs Neck (mmeting the Queens crosstown)
-----An extension of the 1/9 functioning as a North Bronx crosstown, connecting with the 4, the D, the 2, the 5, and the 6, and continuing into Co-op City.
----Run the G over the Hells Gate Bridge and connect it with the new 2nd Ave line, making it an Outerbourough Crosstown.
Well, Whaddya think?
:-) Andrew
If it helps, just imagine your girlfriend or wife is a "mystical girl" like Jeannie or Samantha
"Mystical" is usually used in another context here, at least by Qtraindash7.
HeHehehe. :-)
I sure hope I find a mystical girl to railfan with soon, because my beloved R40S appear to be held together by duct tape. So how much longer do the R40s have?
Really, I saw the duct tape on the Q R40s on the roofs. And those redbirds on the 7 are just falling apart.
R32's have held up remarkably well compared to other older cars.
Actually, I just meant that as a wink. I don't know what Qtraindash7 means by "Mystical Girl", and I'm afraid to ask.
OK. What do you mean, Qtraindash7?
:-) Andrew
I don't know what Qtraindash7 means by "Mystical Girl", and I'm afraid to ask.
OK. What do you mean, Qtraindash7?
He means Chinese.
Well for me that means a simple, innocent looking young Chinese woman, from the mainland. Some chinese women aren't as mystical, ala the westernized ones you'll run into in Flushing.
Just finishing a cup of mystical Jasmine tea as we speak.
(the main chinese teas are black tea, oolong tea, yunnan bo nay tea, jasmine tea, and green tea).
I like green tea myself. Very healthy, but make sure you're within close proximity of a toilet after consuming large amounts of it. And I don't mean #1, either.
Ever tried Chai? "Chai" is actually the Turkish word for tea (In Greek it's "Tsai"), but it is commonly used to refer to Middle Eastern-style tea, normally with lots of cloves and honey in it. You can purchase a form of Chai at Starbucks and the cafe at any Borders Books and Music.
So Green Tea can be a laxative. That's good to know if I get "backed up".Yunnan Bo Nay is known to aid digestion and reduce cholestorol.
All much better than the soda I drank when I was younger.(I hardly have soda at all now)
I used to eat red meat every other day. Now I only eat red meat once a week. One day I want to try Triple Eight Palace in Chinatown, right under the Manhattan bridge. You'll get to hear the roar of trains overhead. Under the bridge is my favorite part of Chinatown, since East Broadway is where the Mainlanders are. But be forewarned, the girls there are very mystical and will put a big, big spell on you.
I'd like to see a tunnel to connect rhw Staten Island RR to the N and R lines. It would take a lot of stress off of the BQE and would help SI feel more like a part of New York and not a forgotten stepsister. I'm pipe dreaming too, but that's what I get for not seeing a Robert Moses in my short lifetime....
~Pat~
I don't think extending the R into Staten Island would be of much use. The R is a local; that's a long ride. The R also gets crowded as it is; there isn't much room left for the Staten Island crowd.
I've posted this a few times before, but here's my plan:
As we all know, the V is scheduled to terminate at 2nd Avenue. Extend it into Brooklyn via the Rutgers Tunnel, skipping East Broadway and York Street. Past Jay Street, remain on the express track. Just past Smith-9th, drop sharply from the high viaduct.
Most of us have heard the proposals for a tunnel to replace the Gowanus Expressway. Build a two-track subway tunnel alongside the highway tunnel.
Drop into the new Gowanus tunnel. Continue nonstop. Around 59th Street, there are two options: either continue along the expressway or move inside the R tracks, expanded to a standard four-track local-express line. In either case, stop at 86th or 95th with a transfer to the R. Then continue through the new Staten Island tunnel onto SIRT.
Yes, there are flaws, but since it's not going to get built anyway, who cares? The climb from the tunnel to the viaduct would be steep but really cool -- just make sure to keep those 68's away.
The first item I liked, I'd reuse the Bushwick branch of the LIRR, increasing the number of tracks from the single to a dual service.
At the other end, in Manhattan I'd extend it to the westside and up to SelkirkVille.
The Second item I'd scratch. I'd use the bellmouths after Queensbridge to go under Sunnyside to and on the approaches to Hellgate and veer off just before and to LGA.
The third item , I'd capture that branch, bring it up to "B" division standards and follow your route, merging with an extented "A" along the Conduit just East of Pitkin Yard. The Northern Grass Median, between the No. Conduit and the westbound Belt Parkway lanes would be used for a four track trunk line to Rosedale to Join of terminate with the LIRR for service East and to Far Rock. A connecting station at Aquaduct/No. Conduit.
Items 4,5,6, and 7 no change.
The "G" would go as far as Roosevelt then head south on what was the connector to the Bayridge branch all the way to The Culver line, Completeing a full circle. A "G" clockwise, a "GG" counterclockwise.
The "M" would follow the Bayridge Branch north with an option to LGA and a branch over the Hellsgate to the Conn. boarder. Stations near Coop City.
avid
At the other end, in Manhattan I'd extend it to the westside and up to SelkirkVille
If you were serious about running a subway train ALL the way up to here, something's GOTTA be done about the shunts or the running time would end up being measured in WEEKS. Heh. It's 162 miles to here ...
I rode an E from Sutphin to 7th on Friday afternoon around 6. We ran local to 71st-Continental and express from there. Is this the usual service pattern? The map doesn't think it is, but I didn't hear any announcements other than the usual ones. I haven't ridden the E that far east in years, but I don't remember a local run out there.
I don't know if what you mentioned is the situation I will write, but sometimes it happens.
Sometimes the E goes local after Van Wyck because of the express tracks being used for yard moves. I know this happens towards the end of the morning rush, otherwise I don't know.
=)
The Manhattan bound E begins its express run from Jamaica/Van Wyck to 71st-Continental about 6:00 AM. It skips 2 stops, Briarwood/Van Wyck (formerly Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Avenue). It goes back to a local about 6:00 P.M. On the Jamica bound side, it runs as a local until about 7:30 A.M. and skips the two above mentioned stops until 7:45 P.M. The rest of the time, it makes all stops between Jamaica Center and 71st-Contintal. Except of course when the trains are running down 63rd Street and the E is suspended, whereby the R runs all the way to Jamaica Center.
Thanks.
Any idea why none of this information is included on the map or even the schedules?
(Am I alone in thinking that the schedules should explicitly list each change in service pattern as the day progresses? Some changes are listed but not all. Sometimes it's possible to surmise a change from abrupt changes in running time, but not always.)
If I had known the E would be running local, I would have stayed on the LIRR into Brooklyn and taken the 2/3 from there. (There was a bit of a wait for the next train to Penn, and I figured the E would have been the fastest of the three options, and cheapest to boot. In the end, we came out behind the Penn LIRR train -- assuming it was on-time -- by a few minutes, in part thanks to the poor connections from the E to the West Side IRT.)
Check it out:
Parsons School of Design
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bummer ... "couldn't detect my browser" so it did nothing. I guess Netscape 4.77 has something wrong with it ... not made by Billy. :)
Worked just fine with MSIE. Way cool!
Ah well, keeping nasties out of the system demands some sacrifices. :)
Selkirk-
Check the "Plug-Ins" folder, located within the main Netscape folder, to see if you have the "Shockwave Flash NP-PPC" plug-in. You'll need it to view the Flash multimedia.
Download the "Macromedia Flash Player" plug-in at Netscape's download site:
http://home.netscape.com/plugins/index.html?cp=briupg
While you are there, might as well download the "Shockwave by Macromedia" plug-in, in case you need it down the road.
Howdy and thanks for the thought ... nope, got Shockwave - the actual problem is the site requires Javascript which we don't allow through our firewalls here. Just another case of clueless kids thinking that everyone surfs with their security barn doors wide open and don't design their site to fall through to non-scripted code in the event javascript isn't enabled. If a site requires javascript, I'm outta there. (and folks wonder why they get worm viruses) ...
I'm sure it's nice and all but not interested if I have to turn on javascript or write a bypass rule for that site for our firewall and a site has to be MIGHTY useful and MIGHTY trusted to get a rule here. :)
I've only disabled JavaScript on sites like Tripod and Angelfire to prevent those annoying popups, and in 6 years, I haven't had one virus.
Completely unrelated to the usual course of discussion here but since we're in the security business, we go routinely to the most unsavory sites imaginable because that's where we find the nasties. Since our "mission" is to capture but not get stung, we have to use insane levels of care - as a result, javascript is stripped off at the server and fed off to separate lab rats here. We average about 35 infections a day on that lab rat ... if one nasty ever escaped our place, our reputation would be toast in a nanosecond and thus the excessive levels of security on this end so that won't happen.
But they let me come here and play where it's nice and safe. :)
Can't you program the proxy for trusted servers for which JS works?
Of course we can ... however our requirements are unique here and I visit subtalk usually from here at work (I work 10pm to 6am or so) while I'm waiting for one of our product compiles to finish doing its thing ... here' security is enforced US MARINE style ... "none shall pass" ... just the nature of what *i* do to earn MY nut. :)
I work 10pm to 6am or so
Lucky you.
Heh. It's a real wanger for the old social life, but it's quiet enough around here to THINK too ... and no wiglets under foot. :)
GM Fishbowl windows on a subway car; cool! Heresy, but cool.
:D
Great job! Kudos to whoever did it.
Is it true that the money is all set for the LIRR link to Grand Central? I haven't heard much about this lately and I remember seeing a few articles in the last year mentioning that they'd like to build a rail link from Grand Central to Penn Station. How % capacity are the West Side yards being used now? Would a new Hudson tunnel have to be built with this or am I getting ahead of myself now? Any info on the would be cool... :)
~Pat~
The Bond Issued failed that was to fund the LIRR access to Grand Central from LI, vs. Penn Station. However, the MTA is still moving ahead with that project that is already well under way.
Mr t__:^)
Unless I somehow got my signals crossed, there was an SIR/MCI field trip scheduled for last night. As per the itinerary, I got the 5:30 ferry out of Whitehall and the 6:02 SIR express to Eltingville.
Since I couldn't find anyone on a very crowded boat (made more crowded inside than usual by the rain), I figured I'd meet up with someone at the train. After several quick passes up and down the Saint George platform, I saw the doors were closing, so got on the front car, figuring I couldn't possibly miss anyone getting off at Eltingville. There was no one. I let four more trains go by, two locals and two expresses. Nada. By this time it was close to 7:00, so I got the next train back.
Did I somehow get the wrong date or information? Was this trip cancelled due to the weather? Normally I don't mind taking an after-work trip, but what happened?!
I did notice that SIR expresses maintain a good rate of speed when bypassing stops, much like the LIRR- no slowing down or honking.
The 6:02 was extremely crowded, with standees in all four cars. The rain may have kept some people off the express buses. Not many got off at the first stop, Great Kills, but there was a big discharge at Eltingville. Four minutes after this train left (still some standees), a local with very few people pulled in. It doesn't seem worthwhile to even take the express.
On the train back to the ferry, a large number of rowdy teenagers got on at Stapleton and off again at Tompkinsville. It seemed like some of the same ones were on the 7:30 ferry. Is it REALLY worth riding a few blocks in order to walk a few blocks uphill in the rain just to avoid paying the fare?
On the way to the ferry, I saw an R-142 on the '2' going uptown at 14th Street. There may have been another one passing the other way going through Franklin, but it was hard to tell.
In any event, I'm still puzzled as to where everyone else was- if there was anyone else.
Howard, I was planning on going but told Lou and Thurston that a trip in the rain over the SI Ferry ain't exactly 'fun'. I told them that if it wasn't raining by time I left work, I'd most likely join in on the trip. As fate would have it, the rains started just short of 5:00 pm (at least in Brooklyn).
Don't worry, there'll be more, and sunnier days, in which to do another SIRTA/MCI trip.
BMTman
Au contraire, the rain is the best time to ride the ferry! Unfortunately, it was fairly light; torrential downpours with lighting completes the trip. I rode outside both ways :).
But Mike, you don't get exactly great NYC Skyline shots.
BMTman
Well, if that's what you're looking for, yes, rain is less than ideal.
I rode the ferry back from SI this morning and it was not any fun. I was cold and wet. :(:(
You're supposed to ride INSIDE when it's raining. Reminds me of another 'Tourist on the Ferry' story:
Bright summer afternoon, front (SI end) of the Lehman (mid-size boat, wooden benches, large front deck). Talking with group from FL visiting NYC for the first time."This must be awful in the winter. What do you all - pointing at crowd out on the deck - do then?" "Me personally? I go stand on the inside of the doors, where the heat is."
I was inside the ferry (first time in more than a decade), I got caught in the rain and stepped in too many puddles. I did bring an umbrella :(:(.
Glad I wasn't the only one! A SubLurker friend and I *just* caught the 6:15 ferry after being bypassed by a couple of "semi-express" 1/9s, and SIR train 106 (empty!). No one was at Eltingville, so we rode to Tottenville to see if the group was there already; no such luck. We wandered up Main Street and back to wait for the next couple of trains come in, in case the group was running late. No one showed, so we took the 8:07 train back to St George; the X1 portion of the trip would have departed already anyway.
The ride back to Queens was great, though; we were on the first E out of Whitehall for the evening, R-32s. The cab door was propped open (with my friend's foot ;)), so we kept an eye on the speedometer - 44 mph under the river! We had a "railfan-friendly" T/O who didn't mind the intrusion and even chatted a little.
My guess is that the tour was running a little late, so Tottenville was skipped and everyone just got on the X1 or went back to St George after dinner, and we would have caught up if we had gotten off at Eltingville. Either that, or the rain scared everyone off.
Yeah the E rocks, with the R32's of course. My last two rides on the E were R46's. Funny that day (Monday) I saw more R32 R's than normal.
Well I wasn't planning on going anyway, since it was late at night and I had to get up early the next day, plus the weather didn't help.
When I was on the last SIR trip I remember how the express trains whizzed by the stations just like LIRR trains. Those expresses are fast.
The Stapleton/Tompkinsville area is one area I wouldn't venture in, there's always rowdies getting on over there and on the ferry.
It seemed like everytime I take the ferry they are in the front of the boat and as we near docking in Manhattan they say "welcome to New York City, hold your wallets tight and watch out for the crazy people".
[The Stapleton/Tompkinsville area is one area I wouldn't venture in, there's always rowdies getting on over there and on the ferry.]
It seems that whereever you go you can't avoid those 'rowdies', John...
....I suggest you spend more time indoors -- that way you'll avoid trouble.
BMTman
Well it just doesn't look like much is there, it looks delapidated and well like a bad area. There are quie a few buildings I've seen from the train that are falling apart and burnt out, boarded up,etc. Also there is a section of the SIR that runs along Bay street which appears to have no fence. That's just an invitation to trouble-makers.
Tompkinsville and Stapleton are actually starting to turn around. Fishs Eddy has been renovating an abandoned building on Bay St near Victory Blvd to open up shop (it may even be open now), a couple of neat little clubs have opened in St George, and a large-scale residential development has been talked about for the Homeport site. The proximity to the ferry and the fact that SIR runs through the area makes it far more attractive than the rest of Staten Island. It's still not a place I'd like to walk around by myself at midnight, but it's OK during the day.
SIR runs on an embankment through that area, so it's no more susceptible to "troublemakers" than the Brighton line.
Yeah well it has potential, since it is so close to the ferry it has much better commute times to NYC than the rest of Staten Island.
I was actually looking forward to my first ride on a MCI Crusier, BUS, but settled for some Redbirds & a R-62 with a Railfan window.
Mr t__:^)
I have to admit that the rain scared me off. For some reason I envisioned a really long X1 ride back to the 'mainland' and an equally as torturous return to Queens.
Hopefully next time....
To all that still want to go ... e-mail Lou or I privately & we'll re-schedule. We had a core group, most of who had cancelled out. When we arrived at South Ferry we were looking for just Mike & Doris, so when we didn't see them or anyone else we knew, we left.
Mr t__:^)
Well I guess I goofed in not getting on the ferry but I had **NO** confirmation anyone was going via here or email and since this trip was because of a loan request Thurston and I decided not to catch the next ferry.
I did meet Thruston at Main St. Flushing at 4pm, we were supposed to meet two others and they didn't show. We got late to South Ferry and saw no one by the doors. Next time I'll make a meeting spot and you can experience the true Staten Islander experience of running for the closing doors.
If anyone wants to do this and the MCI, please email me at the above address and we will reschedule.
26 days of no rain and I sure picked a hummer of a day for a trip.
Sorry for those did the journey but hind site is always better than foresight.
In a meeting with representatives of protest groups yesterday, the TA explained point by point why the G route must terminate at LIC.
Daily News story
Ultimately some plan will have to be put in place, because we need to move ahead with utilizing the Connector.
Tina Chan's argument about the F is nonsense, of course, but I can understand that she needs to use every tactic she can to get her point across.
If the TA cannot, in practice, carry out a plan preserving current G service (even if it possible on paper), then:
A) The MTA's plan will have to be carried out, hopefully with some concessions such as extensive station renovations in LIC, ADAimprovements, more freqent bus service; or:
B) Some other capital infrastructure project can be contemplated. I have suggested, in past postings, a $100 million ramp to bring the G train to a new lower level platform at Queens Plaza, where an easy transfer would bring riders to the upper level served by the E,V,and R trains. Other posters here had different suggestions.
I wrote to MTA before the public hearing and spoke at the hearing, and I received a positive response to my station-upgrade suggestion. The responding letter suggested MTA has this in mind as part of the plan.
I have not yet "tested the water" with them regarding the new ramp to a lower QP platform for the "G." Some of you have said that there would be a significant engineering problem involved with that.
How far is Queens Plaza from Queensbridge at their nearest points? Could your proposed G platform connect the two stations, thereby not only bringing the G back to Queens Plaza but also connecting it to Queensbridge, and consequentially connecting those two stations together?
Another option, probably not at all feasible, would be to ramp up to the N tracks at Queensboro Plaza. The G would either terminate there or continue to Ditmars. The track capacity is there: currently, the N and R share trackage in Manhattan but the R splits off in Queens; even when the W joins the mix, all three will be sharing trackage from 57th just into Queens, where the R will split off, again leaving room for the G. The benefit, of course, would be the easy transfer to the N and the 7 into Manhattan.
Would it be totally ludicrous to suggest turning the G inward, into Manhattan, along 60th or 63rd? The former would have to wait until after the days of the W, or could, perhaps, take its place (i.e., instead of running from Stillwell to Ditmars, the W would run from Stillwell to Smith-9th, looping through Manhattan and Queens). Either route could similarly extend the Q (local, I'd suggest, to avoid the larger crowds on the express), which would similarly run from Stillwell (or Brighton Beach) to Smith-9th via Manhattan and Queens.
It's a pretty long walk between Queens Plaza and 21-Queensbridge. The latter is probably just as close to Court Square/23-Ely (not very) as it is to Queens Plaza.
Even the dsitance between Queens Plaza and QueensBORO Plaza stations might be difficult to work out building a physical transfer, though maybe if the (G) were there....
:-) Andrew
Queensboro Plaza is right above Queens Plaza. Anyhow, I was on the 7 Saturday and I noticed right by the 45Rd entrance, there is subway entrance/exit being built. I am assuming it is for the 23-ELy/Court Sq stations????
Your guess is right. There is a plan to connect between 45th Street and Court Square.
Chaohwa
I assume that this is the Metrocard transfer we've been hearing about.
From all of your posts, perhaps the issue of a short G extension should be visited on MTA...
But in the name of nitpickyness, that's 45th Road on the (7).
:-) Andrew
QBP isn't right on top of QP. It's a bit of a walk, maybe the length of two blocks. It's not impossible to connect them, by any means, but it would be difficult. If nothing else, I'd say it's hight time there was a Metrocard transfer there.
:-) Andrew
The fun part would be deciding whether to hang an enclosed passage from the underside of the El or to dig one underground.
How far west do the Queens Plaza platforms run?
The Queensbridge station is only a few blocks north of QP -- two blocks or so. Since IND trains are about three blocks long, the issue would be with the east-west alignment. Anybody have a neighborhood map of the area handy?
In any case, perhaps the walk isn't exceptionally short, but it's not exceptionally long either. Then again, the transfer passageway between the G and the (future) E/V at Court Square - 23rd-Ely isn't as bad as some make it seem -- it's substantially shorter than, e.g., the transfer from the A/C/E to the N/R at 42nd or from the 2/3 to the 4/5 or NB J/M/Z at Fulton, and flatter, too.
I can guess at them but I don't really know the travel patterns in the area. Are most of the area residents pushing for the G to not be cut back doing so because they travel between G-only stations and points east in Queens (and don't want to lose the one-seat ride) or because they travel between G-only stations and Manhattan (and want the shorter transfer walk at QP with access to 60th as well as 53rd)?
Perhaps a moving platform might solve everyone's problem? One would think the price small if it helps to convince passengers that what's happening to the G isn't a repeat of what happened to the 3rd avenue el which was truncated and then slashed to death ...
I wonder why the TA doesn't use moving walkways. There are many places they'd make sense, including the transfer in question. (Some here have even proposed replacing the entire 42nd Street shuttle with moving walkways.) I wonder if the TA could fix them faster than escalators.
You might have just hit on the answer why they DON'T have them. :)
Perhaps. But a broken moving walkway is no worse than a plain old stationary walkway, while a broken escalator is steeper and harder to walk than a flight of stairs.
I would think that walkways would break down less often than escalators, due to simpler mechanisms. I could be wrong about that. I have never seen an airport moving walkway out of service, but I have seen escalators out of service. Of course, MTA, unlike the better-secured airport, is always a bigger target for vandalism.
Can somebody who has actually worked with these things tell us which is more mechanically reliable - a moving walkway, or an escalator?
Broken escalators are just as common in some shopping malls as in the subways. At least with Roosevelt Field.
Broken escalators are just as common in some shopping malls as in the subways. At least with Roosevelt Field.
But they get fixed very quickly.
True. I guess subway escalators have heavier use and are more prone to serious breakdowns. Or you got Unions that slow work, unlike in privately owned malls. The WTC-PATH escalators are pretty reliable, I rarely see one broken.
>>>The WTC-PATH escalators are pretty reliable, I rarely see one broken.<<<
...and they're maintained by union workers, imagine that.
Peace,
ANDEE
> The WTC-PATH escalators are pretty reliable, I rarely see one broken
The fairly dependable escalators at the DeKalb avenue station, north side, were recently replaced with new ones. The new ones ground to a halt within weeks, and were never repaired.
It looks like MTA want to downsize the north end of the station entirely. They have a portcullis on the north exit, which is sometimes down, sometimes up, at no schedule that I can divine.
There used to be three entrance/exits at DeKalb, one on the South end, one in the middle, one North. The middle exits were downsized a couple of decades ago, in the typical MTA "temporarily closed for repairs" trick where "temporary" becomes "permanent". Eventually they cemented the exits over entirely.
The hundreds of people who work in Metrotech Center now have to join the crunch at the South end of DeKalb. Ah, for the good old days, when there was a subway station on the Brighton Line at Myrtle Avenue (downsized in the fifties, I think), and an entire elevated line running down Myrtle Avenue to Jay Street, which was neglected and then downsized in the late sixties, creating the impossible traffic nightmare that exists in downtown Brooklyn today.
Anybody have news on the latest exit closings at DeKalb? Any protests planned?
Every station should have an entrance and exit at or near each end of the platform. That's the cheapest way to maximize subway coverage.
Of course, most stations don't already have entrances and exits at both ends, and installing new ones is expensive. But for those stations that do have them already, they should absolutely not be closed! Part-time and exit-only facilities should, over time, be replaced with MetroCard HEETs, open around the clock. (There are some exits that are HEET-only, with no token booth at all, that are closed overnight. What's the point of that?)
> (There are some exits that are HEET-only, with no token booth at
> all, that are closed overnight. What's the point of that?)
The only point that I can think of, is that the MTA bureaucracy perceive that the passengers are the real problem causing the overcrowding, rather than the lack of frequent train service and adequate exit facilities.
I expect some transit spokesman to cite "safety" as their reason. But I know a girl who was raped in one of these exits. This is because you can walk the length of the platform to get to an exit, and only discover that it is barred. If someone wants to mug or rape you, you're trapped with nowhere to run. Anyway, my friend made it back to the token booth, clerk called the cops, and the police report said that the rape occurred OUTSIDE of the subway, because City Hall wants to see reduced crime statistics in the Subway.
I can only presume that the MTA are exempt from Fire Dept regulations, which state that there must be more than one way in and one way out! Is this true?
By randomly closing exits at random times (at Dekalb avenue the sometimes close exits during rush hour!), they make people angry and frustrated, with the result that more and more people who have a choice --- elect to drive there instead. Like me...
I can only presume that the MTA are exempt from Fire Dept regulations, which state that there must be more than one way in and one way out! Is this true?
I don't know for sure, but it's possible that the multiple-exit requirement only applies to buildings, a definition that would exclude subway stations.
Speaking of moving walkways...
The Washington Metro system has brought up the idea of moving walkways in new tunnels between stations that are very crowded and that many people ride one stop to: Smithsonian <--> L'Enfant Plaza, Archives <--> Gallery Place, Gallery Place <--> Metro Center, and Farragut North <--> Farragut West. So many people ride trains the one stop to get from one line to the other (in the FN to FW case, through Metro Center) that they think a walkway would lessen the load greatly.
A walkway from the G line to anything else might be a great idea.
Oh yeah, one of the 4 walkways in the Baltimore Airport Garage is broken about 50% of the time.
Between 21-Queensbridge and Queens Plaza, it's the length of five or six blocks. It's probably too long for a physical transfer, though I'd be all for it if they could pull it off. 21-Queensbridge is roughly on the same east-west axis as 23-Ely/Court Square, but 10 Manhattan blocks north.
:-) Andrew
...actually, looking at the Queens bus map, it's actually the length of about 9 blocks between 21-Queensbridge and Queens Plaza. Queensboro Plaza is a tiny bit closer to Queensbridge, by about 2 or 3 blocks.
:-) Andrew
How far west do the Queens Plaza platforms run?
They don't really run east-west. Queens Plaza is under Northern Blvd/Jackson Ave, which at that point runs mainly north-south.
:-) Andrew
Oh! I thought (assumed?) the Queens Plaza platforms were parallel to the Queensboro Plaza platforms. Guess I'd better study those neighborhood maps harder. (Hint to TA: How about putting them online?)
I've always found the walk between QP and QB quite short, but that's probably because I consider the entire area under the bridge QP even though the station itself is well east of 21st Street.
Incidentally, did you notice that your post was number 222222?
How about that!
:-) Andrew
>>Would it be totally ludicrous to suggest turning the G inward, into Manhattan, along 60th or 63rd? The former would have to wait until after the days of the W, or could, perhaps, take its place (i.e., instead of running from Stillwell to Ditmars, the W would run from Stillwell to Smith-9th, looping through Manhattan and Queens). Either route could similarly extend the Q (local, I'd suggest, to avoid the larger crowds on the express), which would similarly run from Stillwell (or Brighton Beach) to Smith-9th via Manhattan and Queens<<
To be honest with you, any type of loop service is a TA no-no (thus no E to Brooklyn). It's confusing. It's also ridiculous to use a plan like this.
The G should just terminate at Court Square and people should just walk. Any loop would a bad plan and it would be very costly.
New York's system isn't set up well for loop service (or maybe we're just not used to it). London has its famous Circle Line, and Beijing's two or three line subway system has a "circle line." Moscow has one too, doesn't it?
New York's layout doesn't lend for the cirle line.
As far as the Moscow example goes, it"s a circular city.
Arti
I think it's just that we're not used to it. If a loop is the best way to serve passengers, we'll get used to it.
(I'm sure many of us here have gone out of our way to ride the GO where the SB 5 becomes a NB 2 at the South Ferry loop. When I did, I didn't see much confusion even though all the signs claimed a different service pattern was in operation at the time. Then again, half of those passengers were probably other SubTalkers.)
The core of my proposal was to bring the G into Manhattan via 63rd or 60th, since I think that's where most G riders are actually going. (If I'm wrong, stop me now.) Once in Manhattan, the G has to go somewhere, and the only way it can go somewhere without eating up valuable track capacity is to become an existing line. The result is a loop of sorts.
I agree, the TA's current plan is adequate -- I was just trying to make the G somewhat more usable and useful than it is now.
I'd be receptive to your plan.
It would not be so bad if the northbound G somehow connected to the southbound 63 St. tunnel and terminated along Broadway at Whitehall Street or down 6th Avenue to 2nd Avenue. That's not too confusing.
How about connecting the G to the 14 St Line to allow G trains to terminate at 8 Avenue? You then have transfers to all the major trunk lines in Manhattan.
[How about connecting the G to the 14 St Line to allow G trains to terminate at 8 Avenue? You then have transfers to all the major trunk lines in Manhattan. ]
Why not boild switches at Hoyt-S and route G via 8th Ave, replacing C and then some E-s to replace C.
Arti
A crossover between E1 and A4 tracks at H-S was, at one point,
in the capital projects plan, but it got dropped. It would have
been very tight, probably requiring shifting the platforms east,
but I think it would have done a lot for operational flexibility.
IMNSHO, the TA really blew it with this whole crosstown fiasco,
and I don't even live in Greenpoint! From my vantage point in
Forest Hills, the entire 63 St connector project was a big waste
of time and money and the service plan they adopted for the fall
actually makes a negative impact on my average commute.
The crosstown route was free capacity to lower Manhattan and downtown
Brooklyn, all the TA needed to do was advertise it correctly.
Instead, they took the usual approach of gradually allowing ridership
to dwindle until they could kill it altogether.
"IMNSHO, the TA really blew it with this whole crosstown fiasco,
and I don't even live in Greenpoint! From my vantage point in
Forest Hills, the entire 63 St connector project was a big waste
of time and money and the service plan they adopted for the fall
actually makes a negative impact on my average commute."
First, you're prejudging the whole thing without even having used it (you can't use it yet; it isn't set up). Second, the Connector isn't just about Forest Hills - it's about providing additional tunnel access and route flexibility to the whole Queens Blvd. corridor, and about giving Roosevelt Island residents full access to Queens. The Connector would have been appropriate even if the original super-Express had been built along with it.
It's common in NY for people to look very narrowly at something, and forget about everybody else.
The G situation is a problem. There are solutions, though not easy ones, and sooner or later the Capital Plan will have to address them. But that doesn't mean the whole project was a waste. A waste would have been to kowtow to naysayers with a narrow perspective.
giving Roosevelt Island residents full access to Queens.
Uh, how many people live there? How many people per day want
to go to Queens, 100? I think they could have taken the train
to Queensbridge and gotten a metrocard transfer.
Connector isn't just about Forest Hills - it's about providing additional tunnel
access and route flexibility to the whole Queens Blvd. corridor
Forest Hills, Jackson Heights, Jamaica, whatever, they are all
in the same boat. How big of an issue is the additional river
tube? There is spare capacity in 60 St. Re-signaling 53 St could
have gained another few tph in that tube. Adding 63 St is making
a marginal gain in capacity. How many hundreds of millions of dollars
were spent doing it, not to mention millions of person-hours of
lost productivity from construction delays both in the subway and
on Northern Blvd above.
Not worth it! The whole point of 63 St was to build the Queens
bypass to take pressure off the entire QB corridor. They failed
to do that, people were making fun of the MTA for having a
"tunnel to nowhere", so they cost-justified the existing project
with a new one.
At least the G plan is starting to show signs of compromise.
"Uh, how many people live there? How many people per day want
to go to Queens, 100? I think they could have taken the train
to Queensbridge and gotten a metrocard transfer."
That tells me you've never been to Roosevelt Island. It also suggests that you think as long as a particular subway service doesn't affect you, maybe it's not worth anything.
Why don't you take the shuttle around the island yourself, look at how many people actually live there, then consider whether or not you want to dismiss them all with a wave of your hand? Better yet, consider how you might feel if somebody dismissed you with a wave of the hand.
"Not worth it! The whole point of 63 St was to build the Queens
bypass to take pressure off the entire QB corridor. They failed
to do that, people were making fun of the MTA for having a
"tunnel to nowhere", so they cost-justified the existing project
with a new one."
When the new service begins in November, ride it for a few months and find out what it actually does - and then come back here and say it stinks rotton eggs. At least then you will actually have some evidence to back up your opinions. That's something you don't have right now.
That tells me you've never been to Roosevelt Island. It also suggests that you think as long as a
particular subway service doesn't affect you, maybe it's not worth anything.
Well, shit, if that were the case I'd recommend turning off at
least half of the system. Of course I've been on Roosevelt Island.
I'm fairly confident that the number of people there who want service
to Queens is a lot less than those in Greenpoint. You suggested that
service from Blackwell's Island to the Queens IND corridor was
a plus in the 63 St service plan. I say it has almost 0 weight.
Additional tunnel access for local trains is uncalled for. The one local R train now is 72% underutilized, doesn't run that often to begin with, but now we're going to have two of them, and the new one doesn't even connect with the Lex.
The Capital Plan will never address it. The 2nd Avenue subway is the next fiasco to glom up the capitol budget until 2020.
Putting even a fraction of the investmewnt into streamlining the J line that was put into 63rd street would have provided the Queens Blvd IND with the most relief.
Roosevelt iIsalnd is even more irrelevant than Greenpoint.
"Additional tunnel access for local trains is uncalled for. The one local R train now is 72% underutilized, doesn't run that often to
begin with, but now we're going to have two of them, and the new one doesn't even connect with the Lex."
Wrong. The V train doees connect with the Lex. The F train will, in addition to serving Roosevelt Island and the population in the east 60's, will serve more fully (starting with 6/57) the Sixth Avenue corridor.
"Roosevelt iIsalnd is even more irrelevant than Greenpoint."
Since you want the MTA to consider hundreds of thousands of people irrelevant, why don't we ask them to start by calling you irrelevant?
(BTW, If you're going to condemn people who live somewhere, it wouldn't hurt to be able to spell it properly :-)).
You don't seem to get the point! ... or maybe you should consider political career :-)
Fact: G from Greenpoint to QB cut, F from RI to QB added.
Your claim: It's a good thing that service to RI residents to QB was added.
Counterclaim: There are probably more people who used G to QB than there are RI residents with that need.
Your proof: There are lot of people who live in RI.
Arti
Arti,
You have this knack for microfocusing on narrow justifications because they support your point of view, and ignoring the larger picture. If you worked for the forest service, you'd burn down the entire forest to save one tree.
The replacement of the G by V service on Queens Blvd. is needed in order to make sure that 900,000 people on Queens Blvd. have more frequent trains into Manhattan (which they will, esp. after additional rolling stock comes in).
In addition to this, Roosevelt Island, where housing stock has boomed, will receive direct subway service into Queens. These people have never had that option before. Since it is far more convenient than going into Manhattan first, there's no reason to believe they won't use it, esp considering it gives them access to Forest Hills, Corona Park, Shea Stadium, etc. A third benefit is the fact that when one subway tunnel is shut down because of fire or police dept. activity or track work, trains can now be routed onto two alternate tunnels (instead of just one), reducing delays.
Under the compromise reached by MTA, G service will be maintained during off hours. I am not against preserving G service to Queens Blvd, but unlike you, I'm prepared to deal with realities. I showed up at the public hearing for this and pushed for concessions and specific station enhancements for G riders; The Straphanger's Campaign did similarly (proposing different measures). We followed up with letters; I spoke with City Council members and staff. The MTA has now adopted some of those measures, including a Metrocard transfer to 59-Lex and improvements to the G's new northern terminal.
What have you done, besides throw rocks on Subtalk?
[You have this knack for microfocusing on narrow justifications because they support your point of view, and ignoring the larger picture. ]
Read back few posts, and you'll see that you actually "microfocused" on RI.
My post wasn't about 63rd st connector, but actually to point out that you were doigb what you accuse me of doing right now :-)
[A third benefit is the fact that when one subway tunnel is shut down because of fire or police dept. activity or track work, trains can now be routed onto two alternate tunnels (instead of just one), reducing delays. ]
That's probably the biggest benefit of this connector.
[I am not against preserving G service to Queens Blvd, but unlike you, I'm prepared to deal with realities. ]
I'm totally neutral about G on QB.
[What have you done, besides throw rocks on Subtalk? ]
I've only taken G once for railfanning purposes and few times as QB local to get somewhere I can get a train to Manhattan so actually MTA replacing it with V is good for me. I get to Queens few times a year, so obviously it's not exactly on the list of my top priorities.
Arti
"I've only taken G once for railfanning purposes and few times as QB local to get somewhere I can get a train to Manhattan so actually MTA replacing it with V is good for me. I get to Queens few times a year, so obviously it's not exactly on the list of my top priorities."
You know, your post and a couple of others rang a bell for me - on the issue of just what the V offers going out to Queens.
Before the Connector: If you work along the Sixth Avenue corridor, and are headed out to Queens west of Jackson Heights, you catch an R, because it serves local stops west of Jackson Heights station. If you're headed to the Bronx from the West Side, you like that, too, because it connects you to the Lex at 59th Street (unless you're headed up the Grand Concourse). If you're headed east of Jackson Heights, you want an F train, because you don't want to make all those local stops along Broadway.
After the Connector: The F train will get you, with a one-seat ride, to major residential destinations: the East 60's, Roosevelt Island, to Long Island City, and via express to Jackson Heights, Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens etc. But if you're headed to Queens west of Jackson Heights, or want the Lex local at 51rst Street, you get on a "V" instead. If you're headed to a local stop east of Jackson Heights, you can use either an "F" or "V" and transfer as needed.
Result: Better chance of getting a seat on an "F" train in midtown when you're headed home.
Now, will the "V" draw people who would have otherwise taken an "R?" Some of them. It will also draw people who were headed for the Lex transfer point.
What percentage of "V" riders will come from former "F" riders (both headed to Queens and headed for the "6" train)?
What percentage will be former "R" riders? It will be interesting to see exactly how this pattern of ridership actually works out.
Bingo!
Current MTA proposed service pattern is pretty much the best (also politically) I can think of to increas the use of QB local capacity.
The best would be to cut off E too, but that's too farfetched and would require more thinking.
Arti
And did I mention that the LIRR's 63rd St tunnel was extended to the edge of Northern Blvd during the Connector's construction? 1500 fewer feet of tunnel which the East Side Access program has to dig (every little bit helps):-)
Oh cool off. You're the one who says the hell with Greenpoint and the G in favor of beloved Roosevelt Island. They already have that silly tram, and they make little use of the subway from nowhere to Manhattan as it is. I don't think there's a huger market of them wanting to get to Queens.
The V becomes a LOCAL, and will make both the R even more under-utilized. We don't need anymore more local train capacity to Manhattan.
"Oh cool off. You're the one who says the hell with Greenpoint and the G in favor of beloved Roosevelt Island."
Cool off yourself. I never said anything like that. I did imply that Roosevelt Island and Greenpoint are communities whose needs should be addressed, and that the development of the Connector project provides opportunities to do so.
I believe that a new lower-level terminal for the G (to allow it to continue to Queens Plaza) would be a good idea, but at $100 million, it may not be in the cards. See my response to Arti's note and the Daily News article for specific improvements which are happening.
"The V becomes a LOCAL, and will make both the R even more under-utilized. We don't need anymore more local train
capacity to Manhattan. "
I predict that you will be proven wrong, but we'll have to see how it actually works out. If the new configuration doesn't work well, the trains can be re-routed without too much trouble.
They could simply leave the E and F alone, and send the V thru 63rd Street, but they won't because no one would ride it - the tunnel is useless. So they are going to force feed F trains passengers thru it, and substitute half as many V trains thru 53rd Street and pray. The TA doesn't give a rats ass about Roosevelt Island - they have to force ridership thru their new tunnel or payback FTA for building it. That's why there's 24/7 service there now, not that its ridership is any better off hours than the J to Broad Street.
I do think there will be a mass exodus off the F at 74th Street onto the E (the ratio changes to 15:15), crowding the platform to such an extent that people from the street and Flushing line won't even be able to penetrate the mezzanine. The only people who will like it are local stops west of 74th Street. Expect more crowded Flushing locals, and eastbound backups of E's getting into Parsons, because the 2-track stub terminal won't turn trains around fast enough, unless they do crew changes and turn them around in a minute.
They probably should have fed the Crosstown line into 63rd Street, and turn the G into a point to loop service from Brooklyn.
"They could simply leave the E and F alone, and send the V thru 63rd Street, but they won't because no one would ride it - the tunnel is useless. So they are going to force feed F trains passengers thru it, and substitute half as many V trains thru 53rd Street and pray. The TA doesn't give a rats ass about Roosevelt Island - they have to force ridership thru their new tunnel or payback FTA for building it. That's why there's 24/7 service there now, not that its ridership is any better off hours than the J to Broad Street."
I guess you would be a little insulted if I accused you of writing fiction - but that's what it is. Yes, the MTA had a problem with the FTA, but what you describe isn't connected to reality. It's a fable which started with a few kernels of truth, and then distorted them to suit storytellers' purposes - and you repeat it here as gospel.
In fact, major developers in New York were pushing for Roosevelt Island service because of higher property values and real estate development prospects (which happened). Do you read the Real Estate section of newspapers? If you don't, maybe you should - it would be very educational.
I'll repeat what I posted for Arti:
If you're on the dense Sixth Av corridor, you can use the V in place of the F to get you to the 6 train at 51rst St/Lex, and to all Queens local steps west of Jackson Heights. That frees up seats on the F train, which will offer you a one-seat ride to major residential destinations - the east 60's, Roosevelt Island, LIC (yes, the projects, but hey people live there too), Jackson Heights, Forest Hills and so on.
Some of the "V" ridership may come from the "R" (people who are closer to the Sixth Av stations and don't want to connect to the Lex IRT at 59th St). How much? I don't know. We'll find out for sure in November when the service starts running.
Putting the "F" into the 63rd Street tunnel is the best use of the train because it helps the long-distance express passengers the most, while the "V" effectively takes care of the shorter distance passengers, the ones going to local stations, or those looking for transfers. Remember that, in Manhattan, there's no difference between the "V" and the "R" - they're both locals (except that the "V" doesn't serve Brooklyn).
I'll agree that this isn't the only solution. Maybe some variation of your solution would work well too. But the MTA's plan is pretty intelligent.
It's easy for people to throw rocks - but in my experience, if you put a rock-thrower in charge of something you had best be prepared to watch an even worse screw-up.
Your timing is off by several decades. The stop at Roosevelt Island wasn't someone's bright idea a few years ago as a sop for well-off realtors - it was conceived in the 1960's when it better known as Welfare Island. The realtors during the last 30 years had nothing to do with it. Ridership levels to Manhattan Island has always been laughable, makes the SIR look like cattle trains, and substituting the F for the Q will make no difference.
As I said, for anyone getting on the F at their originating station going to the Lex, it means a new transfer at 74th Street further crowding the platform and a 2 "seat" ride.
"Your timing is off by several decades. The stop at Roosevelt Island wasn't someone's bright idea a few years ago as a sop for well-off realtors - it was conceived in the 1960's when it better known as Welfare Island."
Yes and no. Yes somebody thought of it in the '60's, but real estate interests were watching this closely. Maybe you need to hit the library and do a lot more reading.
" The realtors during the last 30 years had nothing to do with it."
Dead wrong, and ignorant. Read through old archives of the NY Times and you'll see what I mean.
" Ridership levels to Manhattan Island has always been laughable, makes the SIR look like cattle trains, and substituting the F for the Q will make no difference."
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but thankfully it's not in the majority...
So what ? It would have been built anyway. The proposed service patterns are based on 1989 ridership levels, which is why the G is reduced to a status lower than the Franklin Shuttle despite a 30% growth in ridership, and yes, positive real estate events which the MTA chose to ignore.
"So what ? It would have been built anyway. The proposed service patterns are based on 1989 ridership levels, which is why the G is reduced to a status lower than the Franklin Shuttle despite a 30% growth in ridership"
That's missing the point. One of the reasons behind the The 63rd St line is about addressing ridership on Queens Blvd. lines which outstrips the G easily, even counting increases in G ridership.
", and yes, positive real estate events which the MTA chose to ignore."
The MTA didn't ignore it. They placed a subway station on Roosevelt Island.
As I've pointed out before, I can appreciate why people in Greenpoint are upset. There are many ways the MTA could compensate for wanting to replace G trains with additional Manhattan-bound service (which is badly needed). Their initial proposal was insensitive, I agree, but I am gratified that MTA chose to listen and respond positively to the criticism and proposals presented at the public hearing and to the mail that poured in. Some Greenpoint residents complained to the newspapers that MTA ignored them, but clearly the new plan, which is to go into effect in November, reflects several compromises.
[Some Greenpoint residents complained to the newspapers that MTA ignored them, but clearly the new plan, which is to go into effect in November, reflects several compromises. ]
And the plan is clearly political. The most ironic part is to reverse the G's QB running schedule.
Arti
"And the plan is clearly political. The most ironic part is to reverse the G's QB running schedule."
Yes - wouldn't go over otherwise. We'll still hear complaints, but at least the agency can probably get the nod from Governor Pataki for this plan.
Hopefully they will cut the afterhours G to current state later due to lack of ridership.
Arti
The express tracks are essentially at capacity. (There may be room for a few more trains per hour, or for longer trains, as we've discussed in other threads, but the gains there are small.)
Everybody wants an express to 53rd. (I'm exaggerating but not by much.)
If the expresses continue to run to 53rd, there will be no relief. Everyone will continue to take the express.
If one of the expresses to 53rd is supplanted by a local, some passengers will be forced to shift around -- either to the less desireable local (V) or to the less desireable 63rd Street line (F). Yes, some will pile onto the E, which will be more crowded than ever -- but at least those who have some flexibility will have three options into Manhattan (F, R, V) rather the one (R) that exists today.
The idea is to break up the desireability of one line across two so those two lines can share the load.
No, it's not perfect. Perhaps improvements to the J would have been more helpful. But what we have to work with is a tunnel and connection at 63rd Street. (Had I been in charge, I might have spent the money on a J express track instead. But I wasn't in charge, so that's not particularly relevant at this time.) How can we best utilize the connection to be useful to those who ride the subway? I think the TA's plan comes pretty close.
(Everybody wants an express to 53rd. (I'm exaggerating but not by much. If the expresses continue to run to 53rd, there will be no relief. Everyone will continue to take the express.)
All you can do is offer people an option. At least people would have had the choice of the V if it were available.
Note that if the entire 1968 MTA plan had been implemented, a train off 63rd Street would have turned down Second Avenue. It would have been the fasted way to Downtown, just a couple of block walk from the dense jobs of East Midtown, and near all those jobs in all those hospitals along the river. All those folks are now trying to transfer from the E/F to the 4/5/6. Those who believe the Second Avenue Subway will simply divert money from improvements in the other boroughs fail to understand where those in the other boroughs are going.
I agree with you. Second Av subway service is much more than a new train from Harlem and the Upper East Side. It's also about getting commuters to employment destinations.
(I agree with you. Second Av subway service is much more than a new train from Harlem and the Upper East Side. It's also about getting commuters to employment destinations.)
That may be said of a full length line, with hookups to the Pelham Line and the Montigue Tunnel as well as the 63rd Street tunnel. It isn't true of the Stubway. That's why I think the MTA needs a full plan even if it only plans to build part of it now (or ever). There is too much of a "what's in it for me" aspect to the Stubway. In fact, if the Second Avenue were even to benefit NYC, that probably wouldn't be enough.
My preference would be a full line, with four tracks at least to 60th Street, and with sufficient hookups to take the place of the BMT Broadway Line. The BMT Broadway line could then be turned over to the commuter railroads for a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan, and improved commuter rail/subway premium service provided by those railroads within the City. Thus, there would be something in it for everyone, even the suburbs, if the plan were fully implemented, and excess capacity between 6th and 8th Avenue in Midtown would be "shifted" east where it is needed.
Two tracks of Metro North's Park Avenue Tunnel could then be curved off onto the Broadway Line express tracks at 63rd and Central Park, down to a terminal at Whitehall. Metro North riders would thus gain direct access to Times Square, Herald Square, Madison Square, Etc. as well as Lower Manhattan. Staten Island Ferry could take MetroNorth uptown, using underused capacity against the general direction of ridership.
The LIRR (which would already be going into GCT) could curve off from the Penn Tubes down Fifth Ave to Madison Square, then hook into the BMT Broadway local tracks there. The LIRR could terminate on City Hall's lower level, where a transfer to MetroNorth would be available. Dual Modes could continue to call on Penn Station, other trains would head for GCT.
All this assumes commuter rail cars would fit in the Broadway Line if they were cut down to 75 feet. Power would also have to be converted on the Broadway Line, but compared to the rest, that's no big deal.
Meanwhile, the "stubway" connection to the 63rd Street line would be used to send trains down 6th Avenue when (if) the full Second Avenue were built and the Broadway Line were shifted to commuter rail service. At that time, the 60th Street line could end at a new terminal linked to Columbus Circle, or even extended west and south to run through to the Canarsie Line.
The Second Avenue itself would hook up to the Nassau Street line, which would become the main route from the Montigue Tunnel. Broadway/Brooklyn trains could also hook in, as well as to 6th Avenue, otherwise terminating at Chambers Street. The Express Tracks would have to hook up to DeKalb. While we are creating a long run plan, how about a four track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge, rather than another hook up to it?
AM I MAD? No. But I see what the review process has become. You need an approved, phased plan, designed so that at the end of each phase the network will work even if nothing else is built. The Stubway and LIRR to GCT would be Phase I. The Big Plan has to have something for everyone. And an approved plan could be put out to bid quickly whenever money was available.
Remember the aging of the baby boom. In NYC, the elderly are sucking up all the money as it is. Anything that doesn't happen by 2020, kiss it goodbye until 2050. Hope those subway cars can last 50 years.
Why not use 2nd Ave for LIRR service to lower Manhattan...right off 63rd st? With 2 tracks that would have clearances for exisiting cars?
I can't see those 85-foot cars negotiating the "S"-curve between City Hall and Cortlandt Street.
>>I can't see those 85-foot cars negotiating the "S"-curve between City Hall and Cortlandt Street.<<
Is there such things as 85' cars? I've thought that 75' is the limit (and is 75' the standard length of a commuter/passenger car?).
85 feet is a common length for passenger railroad cars; If I'm not mistaken, even the modern MTA "M" classes of commuter trains are that length.
I don't think there are any SUBWAY trains longer than 75 feet, although I could be wrong.
Commuter MU's in MTA service are 85' long.
As I said, to run on the BMT Broadway line the commuter railroads would need 75 foot cars (see the first post).
The question is, would commuter cars fit otherwise (ie. height and width)?
You could run the LIRR down Second Avenue from 63rd St, except that wouldn't help Metro North and it would squeeze all the LIRR passengers for Grand Central AND Lower Manhattan into 63rd Street while no one would want to go to Penn.
The one MTA proposal I'm aware of is a separate "special" subway just for the suburbs running from GCT, down Second Avenue, to Lower Manhattan. No one seat ride, but no riding with us "scum" either.
The New York City trans-authority is a government institution, just like Amtrak, and Conrail the government owns a rolling stock in a rail bed. But, the rail bed is like any other highway in the Department of Transportation manages; in other words you could make your own railroad coaches and paid the transit authority for use of the rails.
The government cannot say no to such proposal as the New York City subway was invented by private investors and fell into hands of the state because those companies that ran the subway fell into receivership.
In short if you want to save the 'G' train, other line which was lost over the years your better off privatize the New York City subway system. Because, alot of change in mass transportation technology has come around since Thomas Edison.
It's time to stop begging the 'TA'; It's time to show them that the
private sector has the better ideas than the state.
All right, You've being "teasing" us for a while. Ambiguous claims are one thing, but some kind of a "hint" that private operation in transit would be viable might be in order from you. Have had a bar talk about that too, but pretty much that's that.
Arti
Actually my thought was full-length 2nd Ave line to lower Manhattan such as the ferry area with 2 tracks dedicated to LIRR use.right off the 63rd st line. I know the ugly curves you mean on the N/R..I snaked around those cursed things enough in my M/M days.
Isn't that stretch of curved trackage one of the places where they had to shave back the catwalks to fit the 75-footers?
"That may be said of a full length line, with hookups to the Pelham Line and the Montigue Tunnel as well as the 63rd Street tunnel. It isn't true of the Stubway. That's why I think the MTA needs a full plan even if it only plans to build part of it now (or ever). There is too much of a "what's in it for me" aspect to the Stubway. In fact, if the Second Avenue were even to benefit NYC, that probably wouldn't be enough."
We're on the same page here. Did you attend the public meeting for the "below 63rd St" section of the new subway?
While we're at it, you would replace the four Manhattan bridge tracks with two in the center to extend the LIRR from Flatbush (Atlantic) into Manhattan. Then it could continue back into Queens through Grand Central. (Perhaps to layup in Sunnyside yard)
Suspension bridges are not suitable for railroad use. A new tunnel would be better, and there should be no subways on suspension bridges at all. Sounds bad, but from an engineering standpoint, good sense, at least that is what I read in TRAINS magazine a few years ago.
Doc,
Many of us are aware of the twisting that has occurred on the Manhattan Bridge (which the new bracing being installed will reduce).
The Delaware River Port Authority runs its PATCO train between Philly and NJ over the Ben Franklin Bridge, running its trains on the sides of the bridge. Now, at rush hour, these are full-length trains with standing-room crowds. I have not heard of any problems with twisting on that bridge. Doesn't that mean that it is not inherently wrong to put a train on a suspension bridge? Maybe it's just a design flaw specifically on the Manhattan Bridge?...
Comments?
Ron
M/M Instructor Danny Miller [who taught us 33 years ago] told us the problem was most of the rail traffic on the Manhattan Bridge was on the north side with little on the south which he felt would be corrected by the Chrystie connection reroutes. [N and QB on the south side] In other words imbalanced. He also told us the Williamsburgh was the stronger bridge of the two just FYI.
Perhaps as many have noted having the tracks in the center was better too instead of outboard.
I've read that steam locomotives and suspension bridges were a bad combination...with the "dynamic augment" aka rail pounding that steam loco's caused. Where electrics are concerned perhaps it is the intremittent heavy loads instead of things like constant auto/truck traffic? Better brains than mine needed.
Your nswer sounds reasonable. So, with better bracing (now being installed) the NYCDOT can reduce the problem; can the TA help by running asmany trains on both sides of the bridge (theoretical question, not practical question. I don't expect them to do that).
Not being a civil engineer I speak as a lay man. But one has to think about the known technology when the East River Bridges were built. The weight of vehicles then opposed to what we have now would boggle the minds of the designers. From horse and carriages to 18 wheelers and 40 ton subway cars running in multilpe fashion. It is amazing that the bridges haven't needed major modification since the 20's
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Well, The Ben Franklin had to go through some modifications itself. Originally, the trackbed and roadbed were made out of concrete. The track bed was removed in favor of stringers and open track and the concrete roadbed was replaced with a steel roadbed. Also, the suspension cables were replaced as well. Now it is getting a new paint job. The difference between this paint job and earlier paint jobs is that the old paint is being removed (it is a 1/4" thick). As soon as it is done, it will look as brand new as the day it opened up 75 years ago.
My guess is the Ben Franklin Bridge is much, much shorter. This alone would reduce twisting/cracking. Perhaps, as well, the roadbed is flatter, rather than sloping as on the Manny B.
I look at it this way: in the 1960s the TA spent big money on an improvement (ie. Chrystie St) that was predicated on the continued use of the Manny B. It could have invested in an alternative. Was that, in retrospect, a good decision?
If the Lower Second Avenue is ever built, I'd think twice before repeating that decision.
At the very least, the MTA ought to connect the Second Avenue to the Nassau Line via Grand Street and Park Row, and build the Rutgers/DeKalb connection.
During non-rush hours, that would allow as much service as today -- and more -- without the use of the bridge, and with a quality network. Ie. the N and R to Broadway, and the B to 6th Avenue or Second Avenue via Nassau Street and Grand, would use the Montigue. The F/D/Q would use the Rutgers.
During rush hours, one service from each tunnel would move to each side of the bridge, and the M would run through.
It could also be the truss design as well. Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't The Manny B shorter than The Ben Franklin. I would have to look at the stats.
You make a reasonable argument here. I have seen the MTA bend to public pressure before. Regardless of what you hear now, it's not a "done deal" that they won't provide any of the needed connections.
Stay hopeful...
Highway vehicles indeed far bigger and heavier than when those bridges were built; trains..might apply for the Brooklyn Bridge but not the others too much. When the Manhattan Br.got rail service the cars in regular service for some 50 years were the BMT standards and later the D types. Both heavier than even the hippos.
Willy B had the BU's originally which [according to a trade mag. story]..the last of them from l903-07 weighed in at up to 74,000 lbs.
Which is more than non A/C R32 etc and maybe equal to A/C R32-42.
Just a thought to throw a wrench into the machinery. So why couldn't an R32 run on the older lightweight els like Myrtle? The Q's weighed more than R32,38 etc w/o a/c. [something like 70,000...less than original weight with the composite trucks replacing Peckhams.]
Howdy, guy ... my guess with the Myrtle is that they ran the Q's because of the platform widths ... they would have had to shave them since the platforms down Myrtle Ave south of the junction (west?) were cut for 9 foot wide cars (IRT size) ...
Now if they hadn't torn the damn thing DOWN, Salaamallah could ride the redbirds all the doo dah day on THAT el since you just know they'd end up there if it was still standing. :)
Actually, the Brooklyn Bridge is one of the strongest suspension bridges with an amazingly high factor of safety estimated at 6!
Typical safety factors are in the vicinity of 2.5
The Brooklyn bridge is so strong because suspension bridge technology on that scale was completely uncharted back then. There were no adequate means for analyzing the structure in ~1880, so it was made as strong as possible. It's kind of like the Empire State Building of suspension bridges.
Did you ever notice the diagonal cables running from the towers to the deck? These cross at angles the vertical cables that connect the deck to the suspension cables.
You don't see these "diagonal" cables on many, or maybe even any, other other bridges in the world. From what I have read, these cables are completely unnecessary -- they were added out of the unwarranted fear that a deck of that thickness would twist in the wind. Nowadays, we know otherwise.
But how would they have known!
The bridge is what, 120 years old now and still standing, and the diagonal cables add to it's unique architectural appeal.
MATT-2AV
I have always loved the Brooklyn Bridge for its styling and history; those diagonal cables were the frosting on the cake. That spiderweb pattern seems unique for it...are there any others with that pattern? I don't know of any.
Re Paul Matus message I guess I forgot the differnece in loaded cars, axle loadings etc. Not as many bodies fit on the el cars, therefore lower axle loadings.The SMEE braking indeed a lot sharper than what the el cars had too...when the R12 were sent to 3rd Ave. the dynamic was diconnected.
Long live the Brooklyn Bridge.
Ed, quoting from this page:
"The BMTs heaviest car, the subway Triplex, weighed 212 pounds per square foot of floor area fully loaded. A BRT el car worked out to a surprisingly close 204 pounds. [...]
"It is axle loading, howeverthe weight carried by each car axlethat determines whether a car could operate on one of the old structures at all. A loaded Triplex maxed out at 40,000 pounds per axle. A wooden elevated car put 28,000 pounds on each axle {...]"
What would the axle loading on a loaded R32 amount to? That, and such factors as accelration and braking characteristics result in the amount of strain on a structure.
Well I don't think converting the BMT Broadway line to suburban MU's is cost effective. The tunnels would have to be widen, platforms changed, tracks changed, signals changed and the list goes on. Plus riders would have to pay more to use the line. That won't fly with anyone. Right now as I see it, any second avenue subway would help the east side crowding situation. And LIRR capacity via the lower level of 63rd street into Grand Central. I gather that can be hooked up to the MNRR Park ave tunnel. Of course only the electrics will be able to go to GCT, the DM's are too tall to clear the 63rd st tunnel.
And the subway (upper) section of the 63rd street line can hook into
the 2nd ave subway. Hopefully a full version of the 2nd ave line does get built, all the way to lower Manhattan, maybe even phased into a new tunnel that replaces the Manhattan bridge. The 2nd ave line should be four tracks, with expresses going to Brooklyn.
(this is my 3rd attempt trying to post, either this server has a problem or it's time for me to get DSL)
Larry's suggestion indicated the use of 75 foot cars, so the tunnels would not have to be widened.
You could have a city-zone fare where tickets in Manhattan's CBD are not collected and you get in with a Metrocard. If you stay on the train into Long Island, the conductor would collect your ticket as (s)he does now .....
--Mark
So LIRR riders would need MetroCards, too, just to enter the system in Manhattan?
Actually, I'd love to see the LIRR converted to MetroCard operation throughout. Commuter rail conductor operation is quaint but not terribly efficient. Riders within a zone end up riding for free (at least based on my impression, from the two rides I took two weeks ago, that the conductors only go around at zone borders), occasional riders have to run around to buy tickets or risk the $2 surcharge (or even run back and forth from platform to platform only to find the door to the ticket office locked). MetroCard might as well become a regionwide payment system.
Yes, riders would have to swipe on exit. That might cause a problem at Penn, but keep in mind that most LIRR riders enter the subway directly from the LIRR, so the existing subway entrance turnstiles could also function simultaneously as LIRR exit turnstiles (anyone wishing to just walk through Penn Station would swipe in and out for free). (Alternatively, if the subway itself is converted to a distance-based fare system, there isn't really a need for a distinction at all. Someone who swipes in at, say, Ronkonkoma and out at, say, Bleecker Street would be charged the appropriate fare.) For those exiting to the street, a wide bank of turnstiles should do the trick.
That's an interesting and creative idea Dave. I think the Metrocard system has something to offer Metro-North and LIRR. Conductors work hard, but inevitably fares are missed, or misapplied. Moreover, ridership data could be collected and analyzed better with a properly designed information system.
Could be implemented, it's just that the suburban conductor position is a high paid legacy job for those on the inside.
There are two big problems. One is loading at GCT and Penn. I'd put entry AND exit swipes in station OTHER THAN GCT and Penn. The fare collected would assume that your destination/origin was Manhattan. If it wasn't, money could be put back on.
The other problem is people walking around the turnstiles to beat the fare. With electronic surveilance, enough inspectors, and high enough fines ($500 and you get taken directly to court then sit in jail until someone pays or posts bail?), I think fare evasion would be as low as today. Most commuter rail riders are not theives, and there are plenty of "good faith" systems in middle class areas around the world. Moreover, there are plenty of stations which could be coverted to fare control, such as the Babylon line and those within the City.
Agreed. Nice plan.
Why not pose this one to MTA anyway, just to gauge reaction?
He workes for MTA, BTW.
Arti
I don't think loading at GCT and Penn is a major problem, since not everyone shows up at once. The crowds leaving GCT and Penn, as each train comes in, are more problematic. Still, many (most, IINM) board the subway immediately, so the subway turnstiles could be dual-function devices combining the roles of commuter rail exit and subway entry in a single swipe. For those exiting to the street, large banks of turnstiles should suffice.
Your suggestion of assuming GCT/Penn unless the card is swiped elsewhere is probably better than mine, though.
(Notice that both approaches have the advantage to those here of permitting railfans to spend all day riding the commuter rail systems and not being charged a penny as long as they return to wherever they started.)
I was assuming fare control at all stations. Is there some reason that wouldn't be feasible? (I've only ridden LIRR twice in the past 10-15 years, from Penn to Woodmere and back to Jamaica, so I'm probably not as familiar with the system as you are.) If not, I'd suggest exactly the deterrents you do.
(Even subway riders tend to be honest. At Rockaway Parkway on the L, there's a gaping hole in fare control where the B42 enters. When I went out there, I saw lots of subway passengers exiting the station through the hole but not a single one entering that way (except via the bus itself) -- and there were lots entering at the turnstiles.)
I work Rockaway Parkway on the L one morning a week-- there are fare beaters entering the system that way and yes, I do challenge them- and yes, police are hidden in the station and many fare beaters get a rememberance of their activities. Some even get a private tour of downtown Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn. Some also even get a free ride!
Cool.
Do you have a rough count of farebeaters per day at RP?
No I do not. But I work as a lunch relief with 5 different lunches in all four boroughs. I see many fare beaters.
(I was assuming fare control at all stations. Is there some reason that wouldn't be feasible?)
Hillary Ring, then an MTA staffer, once gave a presentation at NYC Planning when I was there. I asked why the commuter railroads couldn't reduce the number of conductors (saving money), increase the number of workers in stations by a lesser amount, and go with Metrocard. His answer was fare control.
Most subway stations are either elevated or below ground, and the only way into them is down or up a staircase then through a turnstile. Some commuter rail stations are like this. The LIRR Babylon Line, for example, is on an embankment with elevated stations.
However, many commuter rail stations are at-grade. All you have to do is walk onto the tracks and hop up on the platform, and you've gotten around the turnstile located at the stairs. In fact, sometimes there are stairs from the tracks to the platform for workers, so you don't even have to hop.
Even so, I think Metrocard could work, with spot checks -- "Give me your Metrocard so I can see if you swiped" -- and electronic surveilence. It's just a matter of providing a high enough penalty for beating the fare. Will some people beat it? Yes. But all those conductors sure are expensive.
The answer to that is a secure ROW. The LIRR has them already on electrified lines, since people need to be kept away from the third rail.
The answer to that is a secure ROW. The LIRR has them already on electrified lines...
There are still grade crossings, even in third rail territory. This would make it pretty hard to secure the ROW and the stations.
(There are still grade crossings, even in third rail territory. This would make it pretty hard to secure the ROW and the stations.)
People do stupid things. There are plenty of places on MetroNorth and the LIRR where you could get on the ROW and hop up on the platform, to get around a turnstile located on the short stair up to the platform. Heck, in some places the platform is three feet off the ground with a waist high open metal fence on it. Off peak, when no one is looking, it would be easy for an agile teen to grap the fence and pull himself up and over or under.
As I've said, the idea still works. With electronic surveilance, and inspectors making ramdom checks to see if Metrocards have been swiped, you could catch enough of those folks to keep the revenue losses down.
Actually, I thought that NYCDOT's cost-benefit analysis was best regarding implementing Metrocard for the SI Ferry.
Metrocard is quite expensive to operate. It might be more expensive than the LIRR conductors.
(Actually, I thought that NYCDOT's cost-benefit analysis was best regarding implementing Metrocard for the SI Ferry.
Metrocard is quite expensive to operate. It might be more expensive than the LIRR conductors.)
You're half right. A decision was made, as part of the "one-city one-fare" program, to offer free ferry rides to those already paying for transit on either end. That is, to everyone who isn't walking ont both ends of their ferry trip.
On Staten Island, there are so few such people -- and the fare was so low (50 cents) -- that it didn't pay to collect a fare from them using any system.
The LIRR would be a different thing -- unless a decision was made to make the LIRR free to those who rode the subway, and 50 cents to everyone else.
Your example actually supports my argument. Implement fare control with Metrocard, even without a completely secure ROW, and you are better off even if some people jump or walk around the turnstile to beat the fare. It doesn't pay to collect money from such people, as long as there is a harsh enough deterrent and enough checking to keep fare evasion from getting out of control.
The LIRR has a zoned fare system. This requires Metrocard swipes at both ends. This means they would have to change the configuration at Penn Station once more. It also means that the LIRR may not use platforms usually used by Amtrak and Jersey Transit, which is done on occasion.
Are there FRA requirements for the number of brakemen on a train? Many of the ticket collectors have that title on their cap. If there is a minimum manpower level, that would limit any potential savings.
The next thing that would have to be done is to determine how to account for passengers who do not have a Metrocard. Do you plan to have ticket agents in all the stations at all 24/7? This is not the subway. Some lines run trains every other hour. It is probably cheaper to use agents on the trains than to staff the stations. "Frequent" daytime service is every half hour.
If you plan to continue to have conductors on the trains to sell such tickets, then the Metrocards will not have eliminated the conductors. Also, the deterrent to fare evasion will remain nominal.
(The LIRR has a zoned fare system. This requires Metrocard swipes at both ends.)
Going back to the first post, my proposal is to have the swipe assume a city-zone destination. Money would be added back on during the exit swipe for those not traveling all the way to the city. Congested Penn and GCT would have no fare control. City zone riders would swipe on entering in the AM, exiting in the PM.
(The next thing that would have to be done is to determine how to account for passengers who do not have a Metrocard. Do you plan to have ticket agents in all the stations at all 24/7?)
You'd have machines in the stations. For those who cannot manage to use the machines, Metrocards could be sold in a store nearby.
Going back to the first post, my proposal is to have the swipe assume a city-zone destination. Money would be added back on during the exit swipe for those not traveling all the way to the city. Congested Penn and GCT would have no fare control.
That possibility was foreseen long ago. From the NYS Railroad Law.
Sec. 59. Penalty for excessive fare. Any railroad corporation, which shall ask or receive more than the lawful rate of fare, unless such overcharge was made through inadvertence or mistake, not amounting to gross negligence, shall forfeit fifty dollars, to be recovered with the excess so received by the party paying the same; but no action can be maintained therefor, unless commenced within one year after the cause of action accrued.
Somebody going from Amagansett to Bridghampton at peak times is obliged to pay a fare of $1.75. The fare to Penn Station is $15.25. The LIRR would be receiving an $13.50 in excess of the lawful rate.
Yes, that's true, esp. at places like New Hyde Park and Mineola. Maybe they need to take away the platform stairways leading to the track?
Guess not. Gotta find another way...
Hillary Ring, then an MTA staffer, once gave a presentation at NYC Planning when I was there. I asked why the commuter railroads couldn't reduce the number of conductors (saving money), increase the number of workers in stations by a lesser amount, and go with Metrocard. His answer was fare control.
Somebody named Hillary was a "he"? Yikes, he must have endured a couple of beatings per week during his school days.
A better solution would be POP. A person would use a farebox and get a receipt with time, date, and MC serial number. These can be checked at random like on the HBLR or Newark Subway.
(A better solution would be POP. A person would use a farebox and get a receipt with time, date, and MC serial number. These can be checked at random like on the HBLR or Newark Subway. )
Good idea, but environmentalists would complain about the waste of paper. The random checks could use a portable electronic swiping device that does the same thing.
Fuck the environmentalists. The paper would be cheaper then portable swiping devices.
"Fuck the environmentalists."
OK, but only if they're cute (and preferably blondes). :0)
[Good idea, but environmentalists would complain about the waste of paper. ]
Why would they? Current paper tickets replaced by different paper tickets.
Arti
([Good idea, but environmentalists would complain about the waste of paper. ] Why would they? Current paper tickets replaced by different paper tickets.)
Objections don't have to make sense. They have to get your name in the newspaper. Have a public hearing, get an objection. If the environmentalists don't think of it themselves, the conductors union will suggest it.
[Objections don't have to make sense. ]
But who would listen to clearly nonsense objection?
Arti
([Objections don't have to make sense. ]
But who would listen to clearly nonsense objection?)
The press. Controversy makes good copy. Reporters who know enough about a subject to make reason judgement are expensive. People care more about Giuliani's divorce than the Second Avenue Subway.
I still have a positive attitude! I do belive :-)
Arti
POP is essentially what's currently in place, except (a) the "random checks" are at pretty predictable times and (b) the penalty for being caught without a ticket is only $2. If that's changed, the commuter rail systems have POP -- no need for MetroCard at all, except, perhaps, to allow passengers to use MetroCard as a debit card for buying tickets.
Two disadvantages are that every station would need to be equipped with some means of buying a ticket -- human or automated -- at any time of day, and passengers who are running late no longer have the option of paying the $2 penalty rather than missing the train and waiting who-knows-how-long for the next one (or, rather, the option is still there but the penalty is much higher).
(POP is essentially what's currently in place, except (a) the "random checks" are at pretty predictable times and (b) the penalty for being caught without a ticket is only $2.)
I haven't had many occasions to ride commuter rail since we bought our first car. But in the last decade, I've never paid for a ticket. It's always been off peak when the stations are closed, and I've been coming back to the City after wife has gone home early with the cars. Each time I've boarded intending to buy a ticket on the train, but each time the conductor never came. Had there been a vending machine I'd have already bought the ticket.
How far did you go? My impression (based on the scant evidence of two rides a few weeks ago) is that tickets are checked at zone boundaries. If that's right, traveling within a zone is effectively free, regardless of the official fare -- when the ticket booth is closed, it actually works out that way, and when it's open it only works for those willing to take the risk of a $2 penalty.
But raise the penalty to $100 and check fares at less predictable times and it's POP.
(How far did you go?)
The most recent case I can remember is from Fordham Road to Grand Central on a fall Saturday, after a football game.
Thank you very much for your reply. I agree with you completely, and take particular exception to the notion of converting the Broadway BMT to LIRR every time it appears on this board.
There are a number of issues that would be associated with converting the Broadway BMT Tunnel for commuter rail usage. You mentioned some in your post, and I'll take the time here to expand further.
***
1) Clearance:
To clarify what you previously mentioned in your post, the entire Broadway BMT tunnel segment would probably not have to be widened -- only the clearance on either side of each track would have to be increased. This means that the tunnel would accommodate fewer tracks.
Now this is not necessarily a problem, since nobody was demanding that four tracks (instead of three) carry LIRR users downtown. The problem is the existing, vertical H-beams that separate each track and support the tunnel. These beams would have to be removed and/or relocated to accommodate the wider MUs. Are all of these beams load bearing?
In defense of the conversion idea, not all of the H-beams may be required, since many tunnel segments are notoriously overdesigned. However, this is merely educated speculation on my part. It is safe to presume that many beams are required for support, and the cost of their relocation might cause anybody to just about dismiss the whole idea right now.
2) Loading:
Now I will admit that I don't have structural plans for the Broadway BMT tunnel segment in front of me. But I do have section cuts through the Crosstown IND in the Greenpoint neighborhood vicinity. I know it is a leap, but if you all would permit me, I will presume that the matte construction for both tunnels is similar.
The Crosstown IND plans show a matte with top of slab elevation at (-) 16.0 and bottom of slab elevation at (-) 19.0. That's three feet thick! Now the plans aren't very good, since they date back to the time of the line's construction. I imagine that three feet is simply the rectangular outline of the slab. Again, in defense of the conversion theory, I feel three feet would be necessary to handle the added weight of an MU... at first glance.
Yet there are two additional problems: 1) There are no piles shown, and 2) from what I hear, the tunnel was constructed in the time before air entrained concrete (not as strong, subject to quicker deterioration).
MUs and subway cars exert very different loading on tracks. Even if the cars weighed the same, the point loading, moments, etc... would be different. In my opinion, the Broadway BMT matte would probably be unable to handle the different loading characteristics of MUs, and either a new matte would have to be constructed, or the old matte would have to be reinforced. You could almost build a new, deep-bore tunnel for less.
3) Curvature:
Part of the conversion theory, if I understand it correctly, wishes to use the two-track tunnel segment constructed under Central Park as part of the 63rd Street Connector project.
Can the MUs handle the curve in the Broadway-BMT underneath Central Park? Can two tracks fit within this tunnel segment underneath the park running to the 63rd Street tunnel?
I've only ridden through the tunnel segment once during a GO to have a look at its construction, just out of curiosity. There is a lot of extra clearance, but looks can be deceiving. If MUs can't come close to handling this radius of curvature, or if substantial widening is required, then the tunnel will have to be demolished and rebuilt.
Are there any MU operators reading this post who would like to contribute?
4) Politics:
If you think the Engineering challenges to converting the Broadway BMT are daunting, the political opposition would be unfathomable. Often political hurdles can be greater than technological ones.
Now I see how you benefit from your plan, in that you gain a one-seat ride to the financial district from Long Island. Maybe I misunderstand your plan, but I simply must ask the question:
What about everyone else in New York City?
What happens to the Astoria N train riders? What about Queens Boulevard R train riders? What about Upper East Side residents like myself who use the Broadway BMT for commuting every day? Are we all supposed to take other trains? Are there other trains? I take particular exception to proposals that casually benefit some at the inconvenience of many.
5) Route Impracticality:
While the ROW may exist down Broadway, the route is not necessarily the most practical one. Using the Broadway BMT requires a jog over to Seventh Avenue, and then down to the financial district. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
6) Station Demolition/Conversion:
First, the existing stations down Broadway will need to be abandoned. There is no major engineering feet here, only a political one stemming from the myriad of businesses along the route losing their stations. Midtown is not subway sparse by any stretch, but the area has developed around a certain level of service. Cutting that service off could cause starvation.
Second, the Broadway BMT stations are often sandwiched between the stations of other lines. Right now, I can think of Times Square and Union Square. Maybe those more familiar with the system can think of others (or outright refute this objection?) If modifications to the tunnel are required to accommodate the larger and heavier MUs, then this is one more item added to the already exorbitant cost.
7) Why not a deep bore tunnel from Grand Central to Downtown?
Isn't this what the City was thinking of anyway? Why won't this idea work? It seems the simplest to me? My only question is regarding where you would build a terminal underground in the downtown area?
***
As I've said here before, I am always one to applaud thinking outside the box. As such, I usually don't pass judgement on many of the pie-in-the-sky transit ideas that are tossed around here. It's not my position, what do I know, and who knows, they may just work? However, when these ideas are clearly impractical, infeasible, and so inconvenient to other transit users, I feel I must speak out.
1) Most of your objections assume 85 foot long cars. However, the LIRR and MetroNorth can aquire a fleet of 75 foot long cars for Broadway Line service. The only question is are the commuter cars too high, or too wide? Since the new cars would have to be compatible with existing commuter rail stations, that's a potential fatal flaw.
2) Remember, the LIRR and MetroNorth serve NYC also, though the LIRR tries to pretend it doesn't. With a link to the BMT Broadway Line, these railroads could offer something like premium subway services (ie. the Paris RER) within the City, serving the parts of the Bronx and Queens.
3) As of now, the 8th Avenue express has just one service, the 6th Avenue local has just one service, the 14th Street line has just one service, and the Broadway BMT express has nothing. In other words, the B division has excess capacity. I propose to move capacity, not reduce it, with a four track Second Avenue taking the place of a four track BMT Broadway line.
Connections would be required to get Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn trains hooked up to Second Avenue as part of the plan. The existing plan is just two tracks on Second Avenue, with NO hookup to the Bronx and Brooklyn.
4) The route? I think it's a fine one for commuter rail. The Broadway BMT and Grand Central would put commuter rail riders within 1/2 mile walk of 90 percent of everything.
The biggest problem with LIRR / Subway interoperability is
the platform height. Just about everything else could be worked
around by using 75' subway car dimensions (the height and the
taper envelope of the LIRR cars is won't clear in the subway
tunnels). The platform difference is about a foot, which would
be very difficult to deal with.
"My only question is regarding where you would build a terminal underground in the downtown area?"
That is the easiest part, you would use the old H&M terminal.
You would probably leave Penn Station on the west end and tip south through a new deep tunnel along 10th or so to the old H&M terminal.
The curves don't matter since you don't turn trains there but only reverse them. Obviously new tracks and platforms are called for.
But that is how it is done.
Of course by this time, you might have just as well built a new bore under the East River directly to your new terminal.
Interesting thoughts, but I don't think they will fly.
Elias
"My only question is regarding where you would build a terminal underground in the downtown area?"
That is the easiest part, you would use the old H&M terminal.
You would probably leave Penn Station on the west end and tip south through a new deep tunnel along 10th or so to the old H&M terminal.
The curves don't matter since you don't turn trains there but only reverse them. Obviously new tracks and platforms are called for.
But that is how it is done.
Of course by this time, you might have just as well built a new bore under the East River directly to your new terminal.
Interesting thoughts, but I don't think they will fly.
Elias
If the MTA were operating the E, F, 4, 5 and 6 at the service levels they were back in 1968, these lines would not be overcrowded today.
What is most disturbing about the entire G fiasco is that the TA is incapbable of operating a terminal (Continental) that was designed for 40 tph at 30 tph.
Their solution is in keeping with the with their dismal performance on the Lex. Operate their facilities at less than 75% of capacity and claim that an only expensive additional facilities (the 2nd Ave Subway or a moving sidwalk) must be installed before there can be any relief.
I think this is a job for Mark Green. How about you? We might as well go from the sublime to the ridiculous about the G's status. I didn't think one line could bring so much emotion to the surface.
Imagine if the rebuilding of the Franklin Shuttle meant cutting off acccess to Prospect Park, and telling everyone to walk with their Metrocards from the southern most intermediate stop on the branch to the Prospect Park. The MTA capital budget never would have been allowed to pass.
As for the G train, they could let it into QP offpeak.
"As for the G train, they could let it into QP offpeak."
They are going to do that (partially).
Imagine if the rebuilding of the Franklin Shuttle meant cutting off acccess to Prospect Park, and telling everyone to walk with their Metrocards from the southern most intermediate stop on the branch to the Prospect Park.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Nobody's asking G riders to get off at Court Square and walk down the street to Queens Plaza. Court Square has a direct transfer to the E/V. Compared to some of the popular transfers is Manhattan that other commuters have to use every day, it's not even a long walk -- and that walk will soon be bridged by moving walkways. Commuters who have to transfer at 42nd (7th to 8th or 5th to 6), 14th (6th to 7th), 53rd/Lex, Fulton (J/M/Z to 2/3), Canal (J/M/Z to N/R), and numerous other transfer points around the city would love to have the Court Square transfer instead -- with moving walkways, yet!
You make a good point. I wish to hell I could remember the station in Brooklyn where I got off on an IRT train and transferred to my beloved Sea Beach. Man did I walk a mile for a Camel as the old cigarette commercial said back in my salad days. It was a good half mile of walking, so it seemed. People movers could sure be welcome at that station.
That would cut off Nassau Ave, Greenpoint Ave, 21 St/Van Anst, and Court Square (and beyond.) It would also require a very sharp turn.
:-) Andrew
Alst.
Not that it really matters -- I don't think a street by that name as existed for decades.
Has anybody spotted the new, NYCDOT-issue "BLEEKER ST" signs? Supposedly the TA also made a similar error on one of its signs but I haven't spotted it yet (then again, I haven't been in the station since after I was told to look).
I read the story Chuchubob and I think Ms Toro knows more about what's going on than the TA, but why should we be surprised at all? The TA has been known for doing outrageous things for decades. You take the G off the line on Queen Blvd, and substitute the V, whatever the hell that train is, and you still have the R, V, F and E crowded on that route. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't believe for a minute that the TA has done anything to alleviate overcrowding one twit.
You missed the point.
The trains will still be crowded, but every one will be headed into Manhattan - and that's what 900,000 Queens Blvd. commuters want in the morning.
No suprise here. We all know the TA is pretty unsympathetic to certain riders. And I wouldn't count on the M at Bowery 24/7 either.
Because they're too lazy to throw a switch. What happened to the good old towermen?
Grief counseling will be available on a first come ,first serve basis. Counselers will be identified by the orange net safety vests with reflective tape, they are wearing. They will also be carrying clipboards. Just pour out your heart and soul, but keep it to the topic. At the completion of your verbal outpouring you will receive a pat on the back. Hugs will only be given by councilers over 450 lbs. Try to stay with the same counciler if more than one visit is needed, The councilers will be constantly changing station assignments so keep your eyes open. There will be NO schedule of councilar postings.
Hope you feel better, cheer up!
avid
That article mentions that the final decision would be made today (Thursday). Has a decision finally been reached? Anyone here with info?
I thought the article stated MTA's board would vote on it next week. Am I wrong?
Auditions for the choice subway spots were held at GCT yesterday by the TA's Music Under New York program.
story in Times
Auditions? You've got to be kidding. Those guys are good but not THAT GOOD!
E_DOG
This morning, I went to Pelham Parkway on the 5 to go to work like I do every day. An R36 pulled in, with the purple diamond inside a yellow rectangle marker! Right off the 7 line! I took this to 149th Grand Concourse and got off to catch the 2. Low and behold a R142 pulled in! I wish everyday could be this cool!
I guess you got lucky for a change. Do you remember the car Nos. of the R-36s that you rode? The other question I have did the annoucements on the R-142s work properly or did you wind up getting the Chipmunk's effect.
BMTJeff
No chipmunk. I can't remember the numbers. Maybe I'll get it again tomorrow. I take the train the same time every day.
I found this site by accident while doing a web search last night. It has gobs and gobs of detailed routing and station information for a variety of subway systems, including NYC's and PATH. Enjoy.
Wow... Interesting site. I was reading up on the little people-mover system in Jacksonville, Florida, and apparently the entire system was rebuilt a few years ago. I was living in Jacksonville when the system first opened, and then moved to the Chicago area before the rebuild.
Upon my first ride on the people-mover system at O'Hare, I remember thinking the cars were almost identical to the system I had ridden in Jacksonville. As it turns out, Jacksonville's cars were sold to O'Hare as part of the rebuild, so it's entirely likely that I've ridden the exact same cars both in Jacksonville and at O'Hare! Next time I find myself at O'Hare, I'll have to give the cars a closer look to see if there's any visible signs of their old JTA days.
Small world, eh?
-- David
Chicago, IL
This link does not seem to be working. Please post the address so that subtalkers can try directly.
I haven't had any trouble reaching it.
If it helps, the URL is http://community-2.webtv.net/SheilaSampo/ .
Is anybody else unable to reach it?
Very interesting site. The information (I was looking at mostly BRT/BMT, of course) is kind of scattershot, but some of the dates look good. As a sample, I tired to track down one tidbit: "11/17/18 Began using steel cars [on Broadway-Brooklyn]"
That's not the first such use, but it is a historic date, the date that steel cats (BMT Standards) first operated through to Rockaway Parkway.
But what I'd really like to know is: Who is Sheila Sampognaro? Where did she get this material? And why did she post it?
I don't see anywhere to email her on this WebTV hosted site. My guess (based on the undigested nature of the material) is that this might have been researchs in a relative's collection (her dad?) and he/she wanted it on the web for posterity.
it even has the detailed subway history for los angles.
very interesting.
I have no idea who she is. As I said, it came up by accident in a search for something else entirely. Go Google!
I, too, was a bit taken aback by the sheer quantity of raw information -- and nothing else at all. It would be nice to see her sources -- unless she's well over a century old, travels a lot, and has an excellent memory, she's working off of something other than herself.
I don't know if WebTV systematically sets up its users' web pages like this, but she might be SheilaSampo@webtv.net.
Personally, I found the recent history -- the past 15 years or so -- most interesting. I only started riding the subway regularly in 1989 or 1990, and I quickly began joyriding. (One time around then, I got home to find two police officers in my apartment. My somewhat overprotective parents had expected me home an hour earlier and were a wee bit worried. I made up some story about long delays at 59th.) I remember the N bridge and express and its rapid removal from the bridge; I remember the weekend J cutback to Canal (eliminating the TA's former policy of having all stations, but not necessarily all lines, open at all times -- the 3 shuttle was reduced to bus service at the same time) and later lengthening to Chambers; I remember the C cutback from Rockaway Park to Euclid and the elimination of the H round-robin shuttle. I never bothered saving maps until very recently, so it's nice to be able to refresh my memory of exactly when the changes took place.
Yup. These are the joys of riding at an early age--especially when the system is changing!
I used my "bus pass," as it was then called, to enrich my after-school activities. While other kids used the 3 hours between school and dinner to play stickball or hang out in the schoolyard, I was riding the system. And a good thing, too! From the time I started riding, I only had 18 months to ride gate cars, a few years to ride original BMT and IRT equipment on a myriad of lines and to see Such remnants as the Polo Grounds Shuttle. I had approximately one week to ride a piece of the last Brooklyn trolley without my parents.
The only time I really got my dad pissed at me was when I rode my bike to Newark and back. It was a great adventure but I have one big piece of first hand advice: don't ever ride your bike on the Newark Skyway.
All of which reminds me of one of the Great Adult Stupidities of the 1950s ... New York in that era was absolutely horrified that youth gangs (see cleaned up example in "West Side Story' (1957)) were going to terrorize the city. So how did they respond? They closed the schoolyard of P.S.249 an hour after school closed each day. Kids who were caught criminally playing ball after hours were given "JD" cards by the cops. OTOH, if you hung around the scuzzy pool hall on Church Avenue you were OK, so long as you didn't murder someone.
I guess modern day kids have some similar stories.
In my case it wasn't even a terribly early age -- I was 15 or so when I "discovered" the subway. Before that I rarely used the subway since I thought of it as dirty, scary, and dangerous -- and I wasn't far off, although I was a few years late. I missed the entire 1980's bridge flip. I missed the move away from two-letter route designations (although I have some recollection of the existence of the K). I missed all the pre-GOH and retired cars, or at least I wasn't paying any attention to them when I did ride them. (I do vaguely remember riding IRT cars with porthole-style windows in the doors.) I was somewhat surprised in 1991 when I boarded an R30 on the C -- I had no idea anything that looked like that was running anywhere other than the IRT.
Agree comletely. I can't count the number of times I'd go to school or come home "the long way" by taking trains all over the place. Catching an F train of IND R1/9s from Church Ave to Stillwell Ave, then R-30s on the QJ / M to Brighton Beach, then R-32s (or R-42s) on the Brighton Express to Atlantic Ave and then Redbirds on the 2/5 back to Flatbush/Nostrand was a favourite of mine.
I'm *really* glad I did it.
--Mark
Just checked out the site. Wow! Where was it when I wrote my book?!
E_DOG
One weird thing about that site. On the IRT page, the Flushing/Astoria lines are put in a completely different section from the others, waaaay on the bottom of the page.
:-) Andrew
1876-1880 from Pelham was spotted rumbling along the Livonia el this afternoon. Thats 25 cars from Pelham to Lenox with more to come.......
this is what the title of my previous post should read.
Is the #3 line preparing for 10 car consists or is this too early to call ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Im not 100% sure, but Im 80-85% that is the way they are going.
Here are few links some might find interesting
http://www.tsd.org/news.htm
tsd.org/cbtcprojects.htm
Arti
Found this Word document.
One of the most interesting things from there is that there is a 2 mile test track on Church Ave. IND line between Church and 4th Avenue.
http://www.tsd.org/papers/apta-2000.doc
Arti
It's not a test track, so much as the express track between Church and 7th Avenues. It also is shorter than the local route, because it tunnels under Prospect Park. It was used for a few years as a real live express track, but I guess now it can be considered a test track. But it wasn't built to be one, any more than the express tracks under Fulton St. were.
A word document, very technical.
http://www.tsd.org/043-BRA-0072.DOC
Arti
In my new issue of Model railroader There is a product review of the Acela express from Bachmann trains.
It rocks.
DCC install is a cinch.
The cars are very heavy -- I trust them running the set at speed in reverse.
Are MTA produced images, etc. public domain? Can I post them let's say on my web site?
Arti
It depends. I guess that's not the answer you were after. ;-)
The MTA does claim copyright on its website and it has a common law copyright to other materials. whether or not it carries a notice.
So basically, you're dealing with "fair use." This will depend on what material is, and how you're using it, and how you're presenting.
Example 1. You use a picture from the MTA website, don't add any text, don't credit it, like it's yours. Probable answer. "No way, Jose."
Example 2. You use a current picture, which the MTA distributed with a press release and credit it according to the wording on the back, but no text with it. Answer: "Maybe."
Example 3. Same as example 2, but you include some information from the press release, even better you write something original describing the picture or what it's about (new subway service, new cars, etc.) and also credit the picture to the MTA. Answer: "Almost certianly."
Note: I am not an attorney, but I do play one on the Internet.
I wonder if the fact that MTA is funded by taxpayers matter?
Arti
It can, but this also depends. For example, many federal and state government documents are automatically in the public domain. For example, I can reprint the IRSs huge income tax guide, put my own cover on it (I can't say I wrote it though)and sell it for $$$. In fact, there are publishers that do this. Same goes for the text of most laws.
I believe this is by statute, not by right.
This gets dicier, though, with organizations like the MTA that are not inherently governmental in nature--that is, they serve a quasi-private function, the operation of a transit system. I believe that nothing they produce is inherently in the public domain, except insofar as laws require it to be (the minutes of public hearings, perhaps) or the MTA allows it to be.
Remember also that copyright may belong to the author or photographer in many cases. Say I take some pictures and let the TA use them for publicity. They reprint and distribute them at public expense. I still have my copyright and someone else can't use the picture without my permission.
Not a copyright issue but one which comes up over and over on this board is the issue of taking pictures on the system. I believe that the MTA has much less right than some think it has to restrict picture taking in public areas. My educated guess is that they can stop you from being an obstruction or using a flash, which could be dangerous or distracting, without permission. But any kind of general prohibition brings up basic civil rights issues on public property and, if you intend to ever publish your pictures, freedom of the press.
IMO, of course.
t also goes by licensing and application.
For example, you can't use the MTA subway map for any kind of computer game, which you sell or distribute if somebody has an exclusive license from MTA to do so (and somebody does).
It can, but this also depends. For example, many federal and state government documents are automatically in the public domain. For example, I can reprint the IRSs huge income tax guide, put my own cover on it (I can't say I wrote it though)and sell it for $$$. In fact, there are publishers that do this
I work for one :-)
"I wonder if the fact that MTA is funded by taxpayers matter?"
It does not matter. The Star of Life emblem found on ambulances is copywrited by the USDOT, and only ambulances and EMTs are licensed to use it.
Obviously there are many other examples.
Elias
test, I am having trouble getting my post to go through
Were you Formely American pig or are you new to the crew?
Why would I use numbers in my name?
Good Morning,
I'm new, I've been visiting the site for a few months now and finally registered to join in the conversations. I picked the name basically because my wife loves pigs (piggo is her name for pigs and she had a pet pot bellied pig at one time). The 12 is only because on one site I registered on required alpha and numberic digits in your on-line name, so I picked the first two.
Be talking to you.....
Piggo
Andrew Martin, anyone?
Hello everybody,
I'm sorry about the test post, I had a lot of trouble getting started, this is obviously my first time posting to the board. I have learned much from the site and your conversations. (And I do like the handle American Pig, for several reasons)
I have one question,
I seem to remember the R-32 and R-38 cars having roll signs on the front instead of the yellow LED type signs. Am I correct? Are the yellow LED's an add on?
Thanks
Piggo12
Yes. You are correct. The crappy digital signs came with the GOH in the late 1980's/early 1990's.
:-) Andrew
The digital signs replaced the roll sogns on the R-32s and the R-38s during the GOH program. I liked the roll signs better than the new digital sugns. Plus the roll signs were easier to read.
BMTJeff
Welcome to the board,AND YES roll signs are better than those crappy flip dot thingies. They changed the front end bonnet of these cars to accommadate them. doesnt look right to me.
I did notice when I saw the R-32s in 1993 for the first time I did notice that they had the electronic signs and that the bonnets didn't appear to be the the originals. The original bonnets were much more attractive. I also liked the blue doors when I looked at old pictures of the R-32s as they accented the appearence of those cars.
BMTJeff
I've seen those photos. I think the blue doors looked out of place.
The blue doors may have looked out of placr but I think they added a little dash to the appearence of the R-32s.
BMTJeff
I LOVED the blue doors on the R-32s! They added a distinct accent to those cars.
Welcome to the board!
Also, the signs on R-32/38s aren't LEDs; they're flipdot signs, like those found on most buses.
Yeech ... Grumman ... yeech ...
They were added during the GOH, they are flip-dots, not LEDs, and the general opinion on this board is that roll signs are better.
...the general opinion on this board is that roll signs are better.
I think it's the unanimous opinion.
Yeah, my arm got tired, but they LOOK much better than the images I've seen that replaced them. Still my soul, back in MY days before I left da chitty, EVERYTHING was on curtains that rolled. And if they were wrong, you'd fake it. :)
A backlit "Coney Island" side sign on a prewar D train topped them all. Little wonder I keep my IND signbox set up as a D. The same sign backlit in green on an R-32 comes in a close second.
Heh. But the soft glow of little 15 watters was the best. :)
"Heh. But the soft glow of little 15 watters was the best"
The soft glow of pistachio green !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, cars fitted with fluorescents were REAL nifty in green. My comment about the 15 watters was the reference to the little bulbs behind the roll curtains in the Prewar cars ... they ACTUALLY WORKED once upon a time and the bulbs ACTUALLY got replaced once upon a time. I even had the pleasure of working some R1/9's that had them and they were LIT! :)
Very charming actually ...
You mean the side destination signs? I still remember seeing them backlit in 1967, but by 1969-70 you almost never saw one. And the R-7/9s sent over to the Eastern Division had their light bulbs removed.
Yep ... that's what I meant ... and in 1970, 1971 I saw quite a few of them lit on the trains I ran ... of course you had to remember to turn them *ON* ... you see, if you stepped out of your cab or let go of the controller, they'd go OUT ... a lot of guys would turn them off since well, after all, the bulbs didn't get replaced, and they were a dead giveaway on the outside of the train that you were violating a work rule. :)
But I'd light mine up if they were there ...
What is inside the left panel next to the front screen door ? If nothing, why not cut an incision in the R32 and put an R40/R68-style sign there, even if it menas having it protrude a couple of inches?
I am a bit too young to remember R32's with the end rollsigns, but they were replaced by flipdot signs. I like end rollsigns more, though. Having seen them on the redbirds, they're easier to read, and more often than not, the glass is clear, and they're backlit. OTOH, the R32 flipdot signs are rarely lit, therefore making it difficult to determine if that train of R32 cars coming in is an N or an R. You'll find out about 5 to 20 feet before it passes you.
Another mistake they made when they were GOH-ing these cars was that they got rid of the destination sign. I also find that useful, as would other people when waiting for a train on a line that has more than one terminal in the train's direction (i.e. A, 5, 7, F, 6)
Despite these items, the R32 is my favorite B-division subway car.
Originally, the R32s and R38s had a pair of front roll signs. One to the left and smaller had the letter, with the trunk line in Manhattan in small letters under it, for example Q Broadway or D 6th Ave. The one to the right had the destination, for example Brighton Beach. I think the TA's policy of dispensing with the destination signs was and is a continuing mistake. This policy had been instituted with the Triplexes on the BMT in 1927-8 and had been a mainstay for about a half a century. The destination signs should be brought back. In GOH, with getting rid of the front roll signs, what the TA did was to turn its most beautiful subway car into a cyclops.
I want to see which is the best so far:
1- redbirds
2-r62's
3-r142's
lets see which is the best IRT train out there now
3
1 naturally... (and the 9)
I want to see which is the best so far:
1- redbirds
2-r62's
3-r142's
lets see which is the best IRT train out there now
From a purely subfanny point of view, I'd say the R62/R62A.
:-) Andrew
the r62's are quieter than the redbirds right? they sound like the r68's?
When railfanning, the redbirds. When commuting, the R142A.
In order from best to worst:
1. R-62 Single/R-142A
2. R-62 Full-width cab/R-142
3. Redbirds
Dan
ok what is the diff between an r62 single and an r62 full width cab?
An R62 single has a railfan window; a full-width cab doesn't.
From an operational and reliability view:
R62A
R62
R62A with E-CAM
R142/142A
Redbirds
Have I mentioned before that I can't stand the redbirds, operationally?
Aw ... where else can you get a better right hand workout than on the wiper handle on a redbird? Oh ... nevermind ... :)
The best? That's a question we can't answer unless you define your metric.
Which do I prefer? Generally the Redbirds -- I find the seats the most comfortable, I find the swinging "straps" more comfortable than the fixed horizontal bars on all other cars, I enjoy the color scheme, and I often enjoy looking out the front. The R62 seats are narrow and most cars don't have railfan windows, but they're in much better repair than the Redbirds (in part because the Redbirds have been neglected lately, but in part, of course, simply because the Redbirds are old). I do like being able to peer into any cab to watch the speedometer. Frankly, the only thing going for the R142, IMO, is the novelty factor. The seating is uncomfortable, the colors are garish, the lighting is too bright, the automated signage (even when it works) is confusing, and the storm doors are dangerous to use.
But this is my opinion, much of it entirely subjective. I know many others here disagree vehemently. They're in luck, since we all know the Redbirds won't be around much longer. (I still think there's no excuse for the TA not to hold onto a handful so rush hour 1/9 service can be brought up to acceptable levels.)
Even if for my own reasons [history and I can't stand the R62 interior] I'd prefer the redbirds I'd have to vote for the R62 as best. Based on proven technology and stainless steel basically corrosion free, etc. The redbirds were good just like the trains I loved were, for their time. The R142, we shall see.
Although LIRR uses different signals, their Engineers must know NORAC rules as well. When LIRR goes into sunnyside yard and line 4 or such, there are many rules that u don't see anywhere else. I have seen LIRR trains encounter advance approach on a position light, approach limited and several other NORAC signals. I say NORAC's signals are better than what LIRR has now. I say they should change to NORAC rules as well.
I say NORAC's signals are better than what LIRR has now. I say they should change to NORAC rules as well.
I would suggest that you write Mr. Bauer and let him know exactly how you feel. However, according to a somewhat more knowledgable source, the LIRR does not require NORAC signal control because all LIRR equipment is equiped with ASC. According to my source - AMTRAK is not.
in case u guys wanted to know what the NORAC signals mean, u can go to www.eastrailnews.com. go to signal rules and there you have it.
1. Some R42 will be reequipped for CBTC but no ATO. CBTC interface to emergency brakes only.
2. R143 will not be able to run unmanned as the doors have to be manually operated, otherwise ATO is possible.
Arti
The partial CBTC capability on the R-42s was envisioned before the R-143 order was expanded from 100 cars to 212 cars. I don't believe it's part of the plan anymore.
David
Thanks for correction. So they will have these few cars they converted for testing, but I highly doubt they will be compatible with the final design.
Arti
I posted here some months ago about an NYCT proposal to retrofit some trains of R-42's with full-width cabs and new electronics for compatibility with CBTC/OPTO.
I am not sure if this project is still being pursued by management.
BMTman
Is it possible that the original center platform el station on Crescent St at Jamaica Ave from 1893 to 1917 was named City Line, and the name Cypress Hills was given to the new side platform station when it was built around the corner on Jamaica Ave in 1917?
Crescent Street has always been the official name of that station though it was often referred to as the City Line due to its proximity to the Brooklyn/Queens border. If you still have questions, check out an 1892/93 transit map of Brooklyn on file at the New York Public Library (first floor map room). As to Cypress Hills, you are absolutely correct. That station was opened in 1917 and had (has) the side platforms typical of the Dual Contract elevateds.
E_DOG
Karl was referring not to Crescent Street station (at Fulton St.) but to the terminal station at Crescent & Jamaica Ave. You can still see clear evideence of that station in the ironwork at that intersection.
Okay. I remember seeing the steel stringers jutting out from the curve towards Jamaica Avenue. I have a picture of that old station in my files. My mistake.
E_DOG
As to "possible" I can't say with certainty. I suppose it is "possible" that Jimmy Hoffa Sr. is playing poker with Elvis in Las Vegas even as we speak. ;-)
The information I have suggests not. I have references to Cypress Hills as the station name in 1916, before the Jamaica L opened beyond that point. An earlier BRT map (pre-Dual Contract) also has the station name as Cypress Hills.
"City Line" was the name of the last stop on the Fulton Street L before the extension to Lefferts.
Paul, I keep getting confused by historical references that I read.
Do you have A History of the New York City Subway System, Rapid Transit in Brooklynby Cunningham & DeHart? I read the third paragraph up from the bottom of page 38,
The Jamaica Avenue extension (of the Broadway-Brooklyn elevated) opened on May 28th, with service to 111th Street. The old City Line el terminal was closed.
This seems to refer to the Jamaica Line in 1917.
The City Line station on the Fulton el didn't close in 1917, but rather had its name changed to Grant Ave in 1915.
I don't have Cunningham & DeHart for the BRT. It is entirely possible that the old station on the Broadway/Lex (now Jamaica) was referred to as "City Line."
However...
1) The hard references I have say "Cypress Hills," even prior to the extension.
2) The physical "city line" of Brooklyn was further north, at current Elderts Lane station.
3) The well known "City Line" station was on the Fulton Street Line.
Now this is not to say that the old terminal station at Cypress Hills was not officially known as "City Line" at an earlier date or that it was not colloquially known as "City Line" to the end. I just don't have a hard reference for it.
I always thought the terminal at Crescent and Jamaiaca Ave. was called Cypress Hills but have seen places where it was referred to as city Line..like a website another poster suggested looking up earlier here. So for me the jury is still out.
Ed, you're right! That new website is the fourth reference now referring to the old station as City Line!
That new website is the fourth reference now referring to the old station as City Line!
The new website is one reference. Cunningham & DeHart is two. What are three and four?
Paul, are you testing my memory? I am getting older, and frankly, I know that I don't remember things as well as I did 20 years ago. I have seen the same reference before, but I can't remember where. As time permits I will go through the books I have to see if I can find the specific other sources. I will let you know if I can find them.
I am just as puzzled as you by this City Line name. My elderly next door neighbor really loved rapid transit (especially trolleys), but he knew a lot about the gate cars too, and was my mentor in the 1940's. He even showed me where the stairways to the old station were. He explained that they used to lay-up gate cars on the center track on Crescent St, and if I had been around 30 years earlier, I could have looked out my bedroom window, and seen them. He never once mentioned that the old station had any other name but Cypress Hills. I would have thought he would have told me considering the details he told me on other things.
I thought maybe you recalled the sources since you gave a specific number (four). What I was looking for is if any of the sources was a primary source, which I would define as contemporary and holding some authority.
Cunningham & Hart is a secondary source, as is that new website. With a secondary (or tertiary or so on) source you have to depend on the authors' reputations and the thoroughness of their research on any particular issue. Cunningham & DeHart have a good reputation, so that gives me pause. Still, I don't know what their source was. If we knew what their source was, it might settle the issue.
One problem with secondary sources is that I've seen cases where four different secondary sources state something, but if you look into it you see that three of the sources copied from each other and the original secondary source was wrong. I saw this happen with my own Staten Island book, in which (mea culpa) there were three significant errors. The book has been used in a lot of material since (including at least one outright plagiarization) and I've seen these errors restated.
Anyway, I have three primary sources for the terminal station of the Broadway/Lex line being called "Cypress Hills," at least after about 1910. They are:
1) Some source notes of the BRT/BMT I was able to transcribe over a quarter of a century ago;
2) A c.1910 BRT map;
3) The BRT Monthly for June 1916, which refers to "old Cypress Hills station" being replaced by "new Cypress Hills station."
Thankfully my previous post was a reference not stating that I said so. The Brooklyn El book page 86 shows a sketchy map...not the nice colorful one on the previous page, which shows the terminal as Cypress Hills, which to me would be the more logical name. a] because it wasn't the city line and b] because the Fulton"s City Line [Grant Ave] terminal also gave the neighborhood there that name???Or did it??Actually at Liberty Ave the city line was also east of Grant...like Drew or Forbell?? So let's call the shot for Cypress Hills.
The matter of errors is a plague to others who depend on previous statements. I have a few in my own book myself and found one out from Jeff H. 15 years after it was published [IRT High-V control system]
But then I've seen many in other works so I don't feel bad. The original "Under the Sidewalks of NY" and "the Interborough Fleet" both have many. One of the IRT fleet errors was direct from "Under the Sidewalks" Otherwise a beautiful work.
According to the site posted in another thread (Detailed Subway History), on 5/29/1893 the Broadway El was extended "from Van Sicklen Av to City Line with [intermediate] stations at Cleveland St, Norwood Av and Crescent St"; then, on 5/28/1917 (almost 24 years to the day), the line "closed City Line station, extending the line with stations Cypress Hills, Elderts Lane, Forest Parkway, Woodhaven, 102 St and 111 St." There was no history posted on the Fulton/Liberty line.
I spent several hours today checking the different books that I have and was unable to find another reference to the City Line Terminal name. I obviously was mistaken in my statement.
Cunningham & DeHart's book is a relatively recent acquisition of mine (thanks to the efforts of another SubTalker), and I know that I have read it several times in the few months that I have had it. I just soak up any literature about the subways and els since I am away from the city, and can't ride them in person. Perhaps, each time I read the book, I thought I was seeing a different source.
Cunningham & DeHart pulled a "blooper" with their description of the running of the Last Lex, so perhaps this City Line name for Cypress Hills is just another error. It's funny when something is published how we automatically tend to accept it to be fact!
I think there was a station near the present-day Cypress Hills stop called "City Line" in the days before the Dual Contracts. City Line was the last stop on the line before it was extended down Jamaica Avenue to 168th Street.
1- I have yet to find a map that calls the station City Line. They all call it Cypress Hills, but I have come across three written references that refer to it as the City Line Terminal. Supposedly, on May 28th, 1917, the City Line station at Crescent and Jamaica was closed, and a new station, called Cypress Hills was opened on Jamaica Ave.
2- The actual Brooklyn-Queens border is indeed at Elderts Lane. As a result my high school was part in Brooklyn and part in Queens.
3- In the 1930's & 1940's that area of Liberty Ave east of Crescent St, all the way to the county line, and perhaps even a little further was known as City Line. City Line was a nice little shopping area that my family used on many occasions in those days.
I would think it would have been confusing as hell to have two different areas of Brooklyn known as City Line. Perhaps the proofreaders were not doing their job on these written texts I've seen.
For what it's worth, a friend of mine lived on Forbell St. back in the early 80's and according to him, the area was still known as 'City Line'. I still call it City Line. As far as that station at Crescent & Jamaica, anything I have seen or heard over the years referred to that station as 'Cypress Hills'. All my old maps have it listed as Cypress Hills, with City Line shown as the terminal on the Fulton Line.
What does Absolute clear mean? Does LIRR get this?
if so where?
The LIRR Rulebook Rule 281A defines Absolute Clear this way:
Proceed, Track clear to next interlocking signal. Approach next interlocking signal prepared to stop!
Absolute Clear (denoted by a flashing lunar white light over a letter 'C' (I call them C signals)) is what you use in case of a cab signal failure in CSS territory W/O fixed automatic signals. The dispatcher must establish absolute block protection between controled points as there is no automatic block protection. Once a dispatcher determines that a stretch of the line is free of traffic, he can authorize a movement into that section by clearing the home signal and displaying the C signal. This lets the driver go all out in the dark territory, but warned to approach the next interlocking prepared to stop.
The NORAC rule is 280a and is written thusly.
RULE 280a. NAME: CLEAR TO NEXT INTERLOCKING
INDICATION Trains without operative cab signals must proceed on fixed signal indication, not exceeding 79 MPH, and approach next interlocking signal prepared to stop.
There is an accompanying rule, 280b that is similar.
RULE 280b. NAME: APPROACH NORMAL
INDICATION Trains without operative cab signals must proceed on fixed signal indication not exceeding 79 MPH.
This means that you don't have to approach the next interlocking prepared to stop, but you can approach it expecting a clear signal. Rule 280b is displayed w/ a fixed lunar white light over a letter 'N'. I have yet to see an N signal.
Here is a visual aide:
Whoops, I forgot something.
NORAC does have an APPROACH CLEAR signal. It's rule 293b and goes along w/ my favourite signal aspect, Rule 293c APPROACH RESTRICTING, a.k.a. CAUTION.
RULE 293b. NAME: APPROACH CLEAR
INDICATION Proceed NOTE: Does not convey block or track information.
RULE 293c. NAME: APPROACH RESTRICTING (a.k.a. CAUTION)
INDICATION Proceed prepared to stop at hand-operated switches and at the next signal. Trains exceeding Medium Speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the engine passes the Approach Restricting signal. NOTE: Does not convey block or track information.
Just got back to Baltimore after spending two and a half weeks in New York. The highlight of course was the three trips I took on the Brooklyn Broadway El. There was some embarassment though. After leaving the Yankee game on the 13th, I waited for a J train at Chambers Street. I was looking down one of the local tracks when to my amazement the train pulled into the express. By the time I realized my mistake the train was pulling out. It seems that on weekends the J terminates at Chambers instead of Broad Street. Aside from that screwup, the subsequent ride out to Jamaica Center was quite enjoyable. LONG LIVE THE J!
Eric D. Smith
Since it was reported, and now posted that the 143's have been "turned on" as far as the lighting, I went to take anher peek at it.
The interior is not quite as bright as the 142's, apparently because of the width and shape (light has more room to escape and is reflected off the walls at greater angles)
The lighting may look funny in the pictures, but this is because there are panels that run along side it that are hanging open while the technicians work on it. They are the same as the 142's. To the outside of the lights are the ad and strip map spaces, and to the inside is another curved space that looks like it could hold ads (but on the 142 they haven't as of yet AFAIK), and these are the panels that are open.
I got an unexpected surprise! The interior information sign was being tested. It showed graphics such as a rocket taking off, "MTA" logo, with "NEW York City Transit", and even some ads for some shaving cream and one of the cell phone companies. It is red-yellow-green only though (drat!)
I went down and talked with one of the Car equipment technicians, and he told me the full color was too expensive, of course, and that the RYG was "standard equipment" that was issued with the equipment(full color obviously hasn't caught on yet because of its price). He confirmed that the end signs will be red only because that was the only color they could get bright enough to meet the standard, and he added the factor that the 37.5 volt power is also what makes it hard to get the right brightness. The interior destination sign will also be RYG, and the exterior side sign will be green only.
The interior ad sign will be controlled by an antenna under the car that will receive signals from devices in the stations that will send the data which is stored in computers, so it will be constantly changing. It is pretty cool even with it's small size (forgot to ask why) and color limitation.
All the seats were periwinkle blue. No maroon or sea mist green. The maroon was a proposal for the 142 seats, but was rejected because when it was scratched it made a white mark that stood out too much. The green must have been discoloration of the photo print.
They were also testing the doors on one half, but I couldn't hear what they sounded like, as it was too far, and it was a bit too tight to walk between the trains with all the bugs, trolley wires and contact shoes sticking out everywhere. But he said it was the same as the 142's. In fact, he described it as a 142 built on a bigger frame.
R-142A built on a bigger frame it seems to be. these new trains looks like they are going to be something like the metro in montreal but way more advanced. the graphics screen that shows ads and the mta logo has been used in montreal for 7 years now.
Does anybody know where did R36ML ran prior to the General Overhaul (GOH)?
When they were brand new, they seemed to stay on the #4 a lot. I have photos of them without a speck of dirt on them, stored ont he center track near Kingsbridge Road.
At Brooklyn Bridge, I boarded an R-62 #6 to head uptown. Way across on the other side, I saw the new R-142s running on a terminating #6. Then a train of Redbirds rushed in along the Uptown Express track in #5 Thru Express service to 238 St. I thought to myself--hey isn't the #5 supposed to get the new cars?????? What happened???Tony
Here we go again... I scent another
"which line gets which cars" marathon thread..
IIRC, wasn't the 5 and/or the 7 getting a share
of r62/62a cars once the armadillos are injected?
....maybe not "new" cars... but a "new" class.
south ferry !! some of these guys dont know what they are talking about here !! see you this fall during the baseball playoffs to
shoot some redbirds !!!
"see you this fall during the baseball playoffs to
shoot some redbirds !!! "
Be sure that there is no one inside when you shoot the cars. Also be sure to get a hunting licensee.
The #5 will get the option order R142's (Bombardiers) once they are delivered. The initial shipment of Bombardiers will go to the #2.
As for the Kawasakis, they are supposed to go to the #6 line and make up the most (if not the whole) of the fleet. Any leftovers will replace the 80-odd Redbirds on the #4.
wayne
No, the 5 is not supposed to get new cars. The R-142As have been introduced on the 6 and have been running very well for a few months now.
Dan
the 5 is getting new cars. the option order of 350 bombardier cars are coming to that line. www.bombardier.com and see if the media centre to get more info on that if it is still there. might not be because they redesigned their website.
I've noticed that ridership has increased considerably at the eastern end of the J/Z line. Before Parsons/ Archer opened, the J trains virtually emptied out after Crescent Street (except for the last 3 cars since most exits were towward the rear of the train, and a handful of passengers transferred to the Q-49 at 121 St.) By 1985, some J trains BEGAN their run at 111 St, so those trains ran with small seated crowds into the City, even during the rush hours. Now, especially in the PM rush, there are tons of passengers transferring from E-trains to ride the CITY-bound J trains to stations like 121 St, 111 etc. I think that the MTA should consider using the empty Z trains that deadhead for the yard at that time to take some of these passengers!! However, I doubt highly that ridership levels are as high as they probably were from Jamaica-168 Street in the days of the JJ, QJ, and later KK trains. Tony
It seems to me that the T.A has taken an''wait and see'' tude toward the J/Z line.Like, ''we'll wait and see if ridership picks up AFTER the bridge reconstruction. If so , we'll add service.If not,ohwell no big deal. Those riders arent as important as the riders being served by the Queens Blvd trains. After all,their only second class people anyway,so they don't realy count. To bad we could'nt get away with tearing the damn thing down duing the 90's like we wanted in order to build that ...what was it again?....oh yeah...that Montalk branch super express line from the 63rd st tunnel to the Jamaica line at 121st street. That would have gotten ride of half the line,less is more, you know.''
Yeah sure. You say how important the Queens Blvd riders are, but they are packed in like sardines. The J line riders have plenty of room.
I HERE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT THE PEOPLE FROM THE EASTERN END OF THE J/Z "NOT REALLY COUNTING". ESPECIALLY IN THE EYES OF OUR ELISTIST PIG OF A MAYOR, WORKING PEOPLE (ESPECAILLY MINORITIES) MEAN NOTHING TO HIM, ONLY THOSE WITH MONEY COUNT.
Yeah it's sad but true. I feel the TA doesn't care about minority communities, just look at what they want to do with the G train cutback, and the way they're handling the bridge flip.
The G could run to Forest Hills along with the V. The R could run to 179st with the F where there is ample room to turn the trains around. If there's a car shortage they can deadhead them from 179st on the F express tracks. They could even turn the trains on the express tracks.
There's no logical reason why the G can't run to Forest Hills. But the MTA only cares about the wealthier people in Forest hills, Kew Gardens,etc who ride the train into Manhattan, not the working class minority communities along the G line. Probably the same mentality that keeps the old rustbirds along the 7 line which also serves poorer working class areas. At least they have frequent service though.
And as far as the Manhattan bridge flip goes, it's gonna hurt the highly populated areas of eastern Chinatown. However it wouldn't have to hurt so bad if they ran the M to Brooklyn 24/7 from Bowery. Indifference is the way to describe it. The MTA, the state, and city hall are INDIFFERENT to the needs of poorer and minority riders.
There is a logical reason for getting rid of the G: People who don't need it hate it. It has horrendous headways (the V will be more frequent) and is short (the V will be longer). I'll be riding the last George out of Continental with the biggest smile on my face.
The G's on Queens Blvd are way more packed than the R's, that's for sure.
I wouldn't say that at all. They have their passengers, to be sure, but not as many as the R.
:-) Andrew
And the G trains have fewer cars, so it might appear as they are more crowded. Well, not even. I always see packed R trains, more than packed G trains.
The reason for the change is ONLY to get all four routes on Queens Blvd. into Manhattan rather than only 3/4 of them. I don't see what the big deal is. The person who mentioned that publicizing that G service to Hoyt-Schermerhorn is a good alternate route to Lower Manhattan gave the only logical way to get full use out of those extra 1/4 of the cars along Queens Blvd without creating a new Manhattan-bound line. Foolish construction planning is the causing of the G route cutback, not those other social conspiracy reasons you talk about. If there were a conspiracy, there would be little service on White Plains Road and Fulton St. in Brooklyn, rather than what there currently is.
Yes, a voice of reason joins this debate.
There are a lot of reasons why the G should or shouldn't be cut back, and they may well include the fact that Queens Blvd ridership demand is much higher than along the G. Not all these riders are more affluent than the folks in Greenpoint.
The TA can be clumsy, but your post offered the kind of generalized cheap shot at the MTA about the poor that is easy to write, but doesn't add much to our understanding of the situation.
After all, if the MTA really wanted to stick it to poor people, it could shut down the entire BMT and assign all the rolling stock to Queens.
I'm just saying the MTA doesn't seem to care about how their plan effects the general public, they care about cutting costs. Really, how much longer would it take to turn a G on the Hillside ave line?
The unused express tracks there could be used for turnaround. If the MTA really wanted to keep the G on Queens Blvd they'd find a way, but the fact is they don't, they want to do it the cheapest way possible.
It's a lot more complicated that that. It's about how much rolling stock is available; it's about line capacity; it's about how many trains per hour they expect to be sending to Manhattan through the tunnels before and after they increase the fleet, and yes, it's also about who's calling MTA to demand more service. And, yes, they have to think about how much things cost, because MTA doesn't have a blank check. So it is unfair (and uninformed) to just dismiss this as "cheap." Nonetheless, there are good arguments for keeping the G.
If you feel strongly about keeping the G, write a letter to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
New York NY 10017
Thanks. I'm writing a letter praising him for doing the smart thing by terminating the G at Court Sq.
The TA, awash in upcoming budget deficits, must spend it's resources wisely. Running the G to 179th is not one of them.
Right. If the TA REALLY wanted to screw poor and minority riders they would have shut down the Franklin Avenue Shuttle!
Oh, no. Did I just mentioned the Franklin Avenue Shuttle??? The curse continues.....
....slowly I turn...inch by inch....
;-D
BMTman
Oh please. The TA is already giving the caucasian G line rabble rousers too much attention. Adding the V line will help the mostly minority E/F riders into eastern Queens.
I rode the J into Manhattan in the morning rush hour a few weeks ago and was surprised at how empty it was. It could be the shutdown during the Williamsburg Bridge construction made a lot of riders get used to other means of getting to Manhattan.
This line has NEEDS. It needs to eliminate the restrictive curves at Crescent Street. At the same time it needs an express track for rush hours direction. It needs it platforms extended to at least 600ft.
It needs a connection at Parsons Center to switch or use as an alternate between the "E" and the "J" & "Z" services J I C.
avid
Believe it or not the Crescent Street curve was even sharper 65 years ago. Maybe they could tear down the buildings on Crescent St. and straighten it out once again. Seriously, a better idea might be to run the C train from the Fulton St. line up Euclid Avenue or something to connect with the J/Z line and tear down the section of the J/Z between Eastern Parkway and Crescent Street, since it's only two blocks away and has a cemetery on one side. Then the J/Z would only run from Eastern Parkway (or even Canarsie) to Broad Street where it gets most of its ridership.
I still wish the MTA would extend the subway down the St. Albans branch of the LIRR. Does the LIRR really need both sets of tracks there?
Yeah the LIRR needs those sets of tracks. You got trains from Babylon, Long Beach, Far Rockaway, and West Hempstead going through there, you need all four tracks. Unfortunately for those neighborhoods in SE Queens, most LIRR trains do not stop at stations like St.Albans and Locust Manor most of the time.
I suspect that the el was built on Fulton St 108 years ago because it went through the middle of a populated area. I suppose that the Jamaica Ave route was probably rejected because it was the north edge of that center. Most everything north of Jamaica Ave in that area is either a park or a cemetary!
Choke! Cough!
Most of the J/Z's ridership is EAST of East New York, not west.
Patronage overall is up on the entire J/Z line compared to the '80's!! When the J was cut to 121 St (and some trains originated at 111St), trains would come into the City during the AM rush with seats filled and few standees. In the PM rush, after Eastern Pkwy, the train was virtually empty except for maybe the last 2 cars. Now, both J and Z trains have fairly comfortable crowds throughout the majority of the line. PLUS as I stated in my original post, it's interesting to observe that in the PM rush especially, tons of passengers transfer from E Trains at Jamaica Center to board CITY-bound J trains for stops along Jamaica Ave. The MTA should consider having the yard-bound Z trains accommodate some of these passengers. However, I have yet to see jammed packed J/ Z trains coming to the City in the morning on a consistent basis. I don't think that was the norm since the days of the J, JJ, M circa 1960's!! Tony
I rode the J/Z about a dozen times 1988-1991. The majority of the ridership was definitely WEST of Eastern Parkway. After Sutphin, there were seats available until Crescent Street. None of the intermediate stations, except Woodhaven Blvd, were heavy loaders until Crescent Street, despite its proximity to the IND. The Broadway stations east of Myrtle were each busier than anything along Jamaica Avenue.
(Patronage overall is up on the entire J/Z line compared to the '80's!!)
You can thank welfare reform, the 1990s boom, and the 1980s housing program for that. Most of the area served by the J/Z was welfare heaven until a decade ago. No one had to go out, and no one wanted to go in. But many of those folks have since decided to get jobs, and the growth of the city's economy allowed some of them to do so. And all those little subsidized rowhouses are occupied by workers, not public assistance recipients. Even those still on the dole often have to travel to workfare assignments. There's a lot of additional people moving around the city.
In the past year New York has almost become a normal place, in that those who aren't totally screwed up can probably get a job. Let's hope it lasts, and all those people brought into the workforce aren't kicked out again after just a year or two.
TA ridership is probably a pretty good indicator of the economy. Once everyone is on Metrocard, perhaps they can start reporting it weekly or monthly with a brief delay.
I would imagine that min wage earners buy weekly as opposed to monthly Metrocards becuase they can never get up enough cash at one time to get the latter. Maybe it should be offered by employers as a payroll deduction if it isn't already, tie it in with Transit Check, or whatever it's called now.
I would NEVER buy a Monthly pass. The only reason why I buy weekly passes is because of the thought of losing a monthly pass right after I get it. Its already happend to a few of my friends. lol
(I would NEVER buy a Monthly pass. The only reason why I buy weekly passes is because of the thought of losing a monthly pass right after I get it. Its already happend to a few of my friends. lol0
I used to buy monthly passes. Now, as a TA employee, I have a permanent pass. City employees are being given the opportunity to buy annual passes through Transit Check.
Since individual Metrocards can be turned off, one wonders if the TA will come up with an EZ-Pass option. You keep using it, the TA keeps deducting from your credit card. When it stops working, turn it in for a new one. This would cut costs.
Since individual Metrocards can be turned off, one wonders if the TA will come up with an EZ-Pass option. You keep using it, the TA keeps deducting from your credit card. When it stops working, turn it in for a new one. This would cut costs.
The TA can also assess the charges and see if unlimited for a particular period would be cheaper. Thus automatic unlimited and no need to decide in the morning or in the beginning of the week or month what card to use.
Unfortunatley, the TA would have to match your name to a particular metrocard #. This could theoretically allow someone to track your daily movements through the system. That opens up all kinds of privacy/big brother stuff which I'd rather not address.
I prefer the current system, as nobody knows the name of the user of the metrocard in my wallet.
Unfortunatley, the TA would have to match your name to a particular metrocard #. This could theoretically allow someone to track your daily movements through the system. That opens up all kinds of privacy/big brother stuff which I'd rather not address.
It would be just like EZ-Pass. If I want to commit a crime or otherwise feel I have to protect my comings and goings, I'd use a standard card. Just like when I paid cash for tolls so my father wouldn't know I went to New Jersey (I have my own EZ-Pass account now, so no problem).
It's more complicated. The ease of the proposed system would undoubtedly lure almost all regular straphangers to it. This would mean a significant majority of the riding public can be tracked as they move in & out of the system. Personally, I don't want anyone to know where I'm going or coming from.
You wouldn't be forced to use it. Doesn't the Smartcard in WMATA have the same capability ? I haven't heard of anone complaining from there.
Yeah I agree. It's like the advice I take about carrying money. Never carry more than 80 dollars on me at a time. The more money you carry, the more you lose if you get robbed or lose your wallet.
In the past year New York has almost become a normal place, in that those who aren't totally screwed up can probably get a job.
Almost, but not quite. If the city's labor force participation rate were at the national average, or even the national average for large cities, the unemployment rate probably would be in double digits or very close.
The (J)(Z) line has potential. It should be a higher priority if only because it is there, one of the few substantial lines serving Queens. it has the potential, the potential mind you, to take a lot of the heat off Queens Blvd and other lines. It is an alternate route between central Queens and downtown Manhattan. It also has a vital connection in Brooklyn (Eastern Pkwy), providing the most direct link between central Queens and central Brooklyn.
Still, at this point it's only potential. The line needs a LOT of help before Queens Blvd (and other) riders start defecting. Above all, it needs a decent express. Straightening out that curve is a little less important (IMHO), but it sure couldn't hurt.
:-) Andrew
It's a shame because the J is one of my favorite elevated runs in the system (well after the 7). It could be like the 7 line, with rush hour direction expresses on the middle track. I remember last time I rode the J I even saw some chinese stuff popping up. I guess they're getting priced out of Flushing.
Also the Bowery stop needs to be taken full advantage of. The eastern side of Chinatown (E Broadway/Grand/Pike streets) has had substantial growth, thus when the H tracks open and the A/B's close the M should run there 24/7.
Forget 24/7. I'd settle for middays. Plus I don't want the last NYC subway station that is closed on a regular basis to have its status upgraded (Broad st).
Better than just rush hours. The TA has do something to utilize the Bowery station when the Chrystie connection closes, or they are crazy.
They can keep that station closed, since the area is lightly used outside of weekdays. Don't want that to become an excuse for them not to run it at all.
Fulton could be open (since it is part of a 24/7 complex anyway), and would provide alternate connections to the IND (instead of just Bway to 34th St)
Since the Flushing Line loses its express track before the twists and turns between QP and Hunter's Point, the J/Z could live with a three-track set-up along Jamaica and a two-track situation from Cresent St. to B'way Junction. That might get some Queens Blvd. riders bound for Lower Manhattan off the E, so long as express service resumed from B'way Junction to Marcy.
An easier way to boost the line between East New York and the Willie B, once all of the Eastern Division was modified for CTBC, would be to re-establish the Chrystie St. connection and hook it up to the Canarsie Line south of B'way Junction. That would give Canarsie riders a one-seat ride into Midtown Manhattan while allowing the J and/or Z to run express from B'way Junction to Marcy, since the Canarsie line would handle the local stops along Broadway. And all the infrastructure to do it is already in place -- no new Jamaica Ave. express track needed.
I mentioned in another thread that the V couldn't be routed along the Eastern Division if it ran 600-foot trains for Queens Blvd. and Sixth Ave. riders, but the MTA could do a C/V track swap south of West Fourth Street, and use the V as the companion local for the A train on Fulton St. in Brooklyn. That way, there wouldn't be a problem with the 600-foot trains, while the eight-car, 480-foot C trains on Eighth Ave. could handle the shorter platforms on the Eastern Division.
Yes and No. Yes the the swap South of West 4th with the "c" and "V" would be nice to accomodate todays numbers. There is this thing called the future, the city will grow, the outer boro's will need to be able tho grow with the increase thats sure to come. They can only grow Up. Multiple family dwellings. Not just two or three family units. Multiple dwellings line the Queens Blvd Line for almost its entire length. The eastern end is under the additional burden of bussed riders. The Jamaica line is deficient alternate. The Jamacia line MUST get bigger and faster. Extend the platforms, realign the Crescent St curves, install an express track from 121st St to Eastern Parkway. Re-establish using the Christy St connection for midtown service. Maybe rebuild Woodhaven as an express stop, extending its platforms towards the unused Rockaway Branch for eventual connection to the ols Brooklyn Manor station. If 104th st is closer let it be the express stop. I think Woodhaven with its Buses would be the better choice if it could be the closest to Woodhaven and Brooklyn Manor.
Do these things and the line will see more users. Before Air Conditioning, it was a line of choice during the hot weather from the Wall St. area. That was a long tme and many miles ago.
avid
Not even this is necessary. Just expand J/Z skip stop service to 16 TPH and start it earlier (say 6:30 AM or 4 PM), and the line would be a more attractive alternate. I've timed the E and J lines coming in from Lower Manhattan several times.
E from WTC to Supthin Blvd: 45-47 minutes
J/Z skip stop from Fulton St. to Supthin: 45-47 minutes
If you ride from Jamaica to the financial district, the less crowded J/Z skip stop route would be more attractive.
On the J/Z, skip/stop would seem to make sense, with a good number of station skipped. Skip stop on my 1/9 drives me crazy, the MOST you can gain, from 242 is 4 skipped stops. With 5 minute headways, you always come up with a longer trip just waiting for "your" train.
Would you then agree if the Crescent St curves were eliminatedand an express run from EasternPkwy with one express stop until 121 service would be swifter?
I would also recomend so extensive iron work at Myrtle Ave. with a single northbound flyover. Maybe move the whole station a little further west to allow for a quicker turn and merge. I'd sent the "M" all the way to the unused Roosevelt (upper terminal) ave station. that would give the QB a little relief to the lower eastside and Wall St area.
These are not super monster changes. Just extensions, reworks and straightening of old knots and kinks.
avid
THE QB????
Queens Blvd. lines, its stations and its passengers.
avid
I'm not convinced the curves are as big a deal as you're making of them. Look at the 2/3: they have two sharp curves in Lower Manhattan and they still get from Midtown to Atlantic in about the same time as the B/D/Q.
What the J needs is an express track, and rapid service on that express track. (Rapid service is what distinguishes the 2/3 from the B/D/Q.)
I agree, the westside IRT has very good service; the westside IND is pretty bad. I've waited for A trains for over 20 minutes at 4PM on a weekday, and that was not "just missing one".
I live right by that S-Cruve on the J line. The trains creep for the most part on that section. I think two things could be done (But costly). 1. Have a single track above Jamaica Ave from East NY Station and let it connect with the J when it turns onto Jamaica Ave from Cresent St, then it can run as an express down the middle (Yeah they would have to put new track down the center in most places but who cares!!) to ease some congestion. Or 2. Have the city BUY that near-unused LIRR line that runs from Long Island City to Richmond Hill/ Jamaica Queens, the one that runs through Forest Park and under the J line at 121St/ Lefferts Blvd. With some construction and electrification that line can be used to DEFINETLY ease congestion from Manhattan into Queens.
You know,that was the original idea for the 6TH avenue Bway Bklyn route.It was to run from 168th street Wash.Hts via CENTRAL PARK WEST/8 AV to West 4th street,over to the Houston street line,through Chrystie st,to the BMT at ESSEX street.From there it would have traveled to 168st Jamaica.If this route was used ,it would most likly been an express from Manhattan to ENY. They could use a line like that over there today.
No. I don't expect anyone here to know definitively. But since they have begun to arrive, is there any concept of about when they might start testing them with passengers?
:-) Andrew
Assuming the R-142/142A pattern holds, out-of-service testing will take about five months, and the 30-day in-service test will begin in the sixth month. However, the 30-day test NEVER takes 30 days (the test starts over if there's a serious problem).
David
Also looking at the R142's and if the 143's have the same braking system...
Now after a year after the 30day test how many 142's trainsets are in service?
I hope this pattern does not hold up for the 143's but...
They are waiting for the full quota of volunteers from the immigration
and naturalizations amnesty program. They have twelve so far. Nine are seniors from Asia, and three umbrella sales people from Siri Lanka. They need 150 more bipedal mammals.
avid
They have installed conduits on the walls and boxes inside the 5 foot for the new signaling system. Get your looks in while you can cause the newly painted, more reliable, nicer looking, rider understandable signals are on their way out. "Progress" is over rated.
Isn't the whole point of the new system improved reliability? I know it may not necessarily work out that way, but in theory solid-state should be much more reliable than mechanical. If there are any bugs, once they are worked out, we should see a dramatic drop in delays due to signal outages.
There are never any signal outages as it is. How can you improve on that?
what does mfl means.
Market Frankford Line.
i thought so.
(M)arket-(F)rankford (L)ine. A subway line that runs from Upper Darby, Delaware County to The Frankford Section of Philadelphia. Once home of the famous Almond Joys (now cesspool of The Adtranz M-4 fleet), the line runs the entire length of Market Street (The "
Market" part of the line), surface from 69th Street to just east of Milbourne, elevated from just West of 63rd Street, subway from 45th Street to just Northeast of 2nd street, then it turns North onto a median of I-95, then it is elevated above Front Street, Kensington Avenue, then Frankford Avenue (the "Frankford" part), and it terminates at The Bridge & Pratt Streets Station. I hope that answers your question.
"what does mfl means."
I thought it meant Minnesota Football League.
Does BMT stand for Bacon Mayonnaise & Tomato ?
Bill "Newkirk"
" I know it may not necessarily work out that way, but in theory solid-state should be much more reliable than mechanical."
Ha!
The reliability of solid state devices in the Real World is pretty poor. It's not the devices themselfs failing, but rather devices such as capacitors, and nasties like voltage spikes, thermal, etc. I've seen vacuum tube equipment that performs as well as it's solid state counterparts (noteably old Tektronix oscilloscopes).
Electrolytics dry out, or short out, other types drift, or open up. Resistors change value, and connectors fail. In addition, many chips are static and heat sensitive.
But then, well engineered solid state devices are VERY reliable - the potted, sealed, heat sinked ignition module on my bike will last forever - and outperform points by a longshot. And i could replace it with an adjustable unit that can do tricks with the spark advance curve, and dwell, that you can't do with points.
The trick, regardless of medium, is to KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
>>>...rider understandable signals ...<<
There is no need for riders to understand signals.
Peace,
ANDE
An understandable signaling system reduces frustration and improves safety.
Hi everyone,
Has anyone noticed the new roll signs on the R68's. They started about a wekk or two ago...both, the Northern & Southern terminal roll signs are "center" justified, as opposed to left justified. Also, the northern ternimal lists the Neighborhood over the subway stop itself. For example, the N sign has Astoria above Ditmars Blvd. It uses a smaller Arial font. The one the D employs says Norwood over 205 Street....they are stiffy white and new...I haven't seen the one for Bedford yet because the B only employs two or three (at most) regular R68's. I also haven't seen the R68's on the Franklin S.
"Coney Island" is revised, only that the font is bigger (not as big as the R68A sign) and that it's centered.
So why the sudden change? There was nothing wrong with the original left justified sign that had 205 St over Bronx, or Ditmars over Queens.
I was thinking that it could have something to do with Manhattan Bridge, but that doesn't make sense to change the Destination roll signs...
I think the R68's are being worked on to change their signs...I saw a whole bunch in the shops near the CI shops, and they put about 3-4 R40's on the N this week (a rather high number)
Any ideas??
SeaBeach53
The shuttle trains don't have roll signs. They were replaced with boards, although you can't see this from the outside.
I read here that the reason for the replacement is due to the Manh bridge. They original signs didn't have 34th st as a destination, and there are probably some others that they wanted.
IIRC the R68s were orignally delivered during the last Manh bridge swap, and the D was terminating at 34th st then as well, and ALL of those trains said Coney Island. You just wonder how short sighted they can be that it wasn't included when the line that was receiving the trains terminated at a place with no sign for it.
There's a technical term for this. OOPS.
During the last Manhattan Bridge flip the northern section of the D used mostly pre-GOH R-42s with one piece roll signs that did not have 34th St on them. Current R-68 roll signs do not have 145th St. on them I believe this is the primary reason for the change.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 68's and 68a's were introduced during the last flip and were used on the northern section. I saw them myself.
And they do have 145st on them. They're in daily use on the B now.
Only the 68A's have 145. And 145 was not yet a terminal during the last flip-- that began after the north side re-opened, and then it was only the C that went there.
When 68's operate on the B to 145 now, the top sign is usually blank.
[When 68's operate on the B to 145 now, the top sign is usually blank.]
Either that, or they say "Bedford Park Blvd."
Speaking of new rollsigns, I saw a one on the N, which had the following:
Harlem
145 StBedford - Nostrand Avs
I rode the D, from the Bronx, every single day during the last flip almost all pre-GOH R42s. No R-68s. They were on the nothern section briefly before the flip. I will never forget it 'cause we had them and then they were taken away.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have to admit I'm not crazy about the new signs. The larger route letter is definitely a good thing, but...
There's less information, and the letters on the destination areas aren't even bigger. Plus, if you saw the list of destinations, "Queens" got the sharft nearly every time. They only name the neighborhood.
:-) Andrew
Well, then again, most people from Queens would prefer to say which neighborhood they live in rather than which borough. Most of the mail we recieve at home has "Woodside" written on it instead of Queens. Sometimes we might get a "Flushing," but never a "Queens."
I say "Queens." I even write "Queens" as my address, and it gets there. And there's no reason you can't have both. If the signs say "Norwood, Bronx", then why not "Jamaica, Queens"?
:-) Andrew
I say only "Jackson Heights" because I assume that if I'm speaking to someone who lives in the city, they'll know I mean the only neighborhood of that name in the city.
This doesn't change the fact that to most junk mail, Queens = Flushing. It's really annoying.
Dan
Maybe because nearly everybody in the city knows where Jamaica is, but as many people know Norwood as do people who don't know Jamaica.
I say it's a good thing in that case, Queens neighborhoods are more famous!
I know where Norwood is. I've been taking geography lessons from the D train. And an R142 today taught me where Wakefield is.
What I don't like is the mixture of single line and double line. (different size fonts.) It's like when they replaced one of the signs with an R-68A style sign. All the 68's are terminating at Coney Island now, and what they should have done is:
Stillwell Avenue
Coney Island
This would then match the north sign, and it would be good since the station itself is so universally identified as "Stillwell"
By the way, I checkout out a R68 B train with the revised sign...it still uses the blank roll sign instead of 145 St....and I've figured out why the R40's were on the N: some R32's are being employed on the 63st S train for the rest of the month....
SeaBeach53
Was anyone affected by a problem on the A Line this evening? A track fire over one of the bridges in the Rockaways forced a suspension of A service. About 30 mins or so, A train service to Far Rockaway turned back at Hudson Street. Why the equipment wasn't sent to Lefferts Blvd is unclear to me, outside of the fact that it's the rush hour and the terminal coudn't accomodate more equipment. I received this information from the Station Command Center while at work.
-Stef
Wow ... track fires out on that can be nasty. I pulled HH (Rockaway Park) duty one day (since I "did R9's") and that conduit can be a firetrap even if it isn't the original LIRR design that was ALL wood ... sure hope it wasn't a big one.
As to Lefferts, it was a place I only went to once (as a passenger) and it seemed to be about as effective for turnarounds as Hudson Terminal was ... not very. I took many a return trip to Brighton and ended up there for whatever reason and was lucky enough to deadhead home to the Bronx from THERE instead of "Coney" ...
Shades of the LIRR? I certainly hope not. The track fire was put out rather quickly. Also just for clarification, I meant Hudson Street on the old Fulton El.
As for capacity, one can assume Lefferts can't handle the extra traffic.
A side note, I can still see the remains of the where the el continued on Liberty Av from Hudson Street. Hard to believe there was an old el there....
-Stef
When LIRR used that section (which was then a wooden trestle) track fires were a constant problem. It didn't help that the power poles were on the trestle then either, lightning from storms would hit the poles starting fires.
Was it the South or the North Channel bridge? There are diamonds at Broad Channel that I beleive could be used. There were switches at Howard Beach when the shuttle turned there about a year or so ago. Isn't that tower manned anymore? Maybe just a poor decision? Prepare the whipping post.
avid
South Channel Bridge was the site of the incident.
They could have sent the equipment to Howard Beach, but there was maybe a good reason the A Trains didn't go there. Power may have been off.... I really don't think anyone wants to battle a track fire with the power on.
-Stef
I agree, thats why I asked which bridge! This brings up another question. How big are the blocks of track when power is shut off? Is it done by a track-by-track basis or an entire chunck (all tracks, local and express in both directions) at a time?
avid
As for power shut offs, they can pull one track at a time unless it is a dyre emrgency where all tracks must be pulled. During a General Order (construction) it often becomes necessary to pull power on the effected track.
Power to the 3rd Rail can be cut from within the booth. Station Agents have a switch to cut 3rd rail power at the substation, particularly on the els. The Control Center MUST be notified of the Station Agent's intent.
Hope This Helps,
Stef
Stef- one clarification. Not all booths have a cut-off. The booths with cutoffs are mainly elevated stations but even then some stations do not have a cut-off.
If we use the switch we must also hit our EBCS and let stations know in addition to the IRt,BMT or IND Control Center Desk.
That's right!
Thanks for the info! I just wonder when I would have to use it.....
-Stef
ARTICLE
about R-142 brake problems. Notice the picture of the R-143, probably stolen from this site, accompanying article.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also note that that was a KAWASAKI car, while the article referred to the Bombardier cars. (Kawasaki=Japan, Bombardier=Canada)
Typical "Blame Canada" mentality. :)
Lookee here,
The cars have been delayed long enough because of brake problems and faulty announcement problems and screw-ups like on 6421-6430 yesterday afternoon. Now, we have to face the choice of either sending the cars back or having them come to us??? WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO SEND THE CARS BACK FOR BOMBARDIER TO FIX THEM??? LET THEM GET OFF THEIR LAZY CANADIAN KEISTERS AND COME DOWN HERE! Well, I've waited for them LONG enough. And Kalikow is saying that he is assured that the problem is being addressed? Only because HE was there. Well, Bombardier has a LOT of explaining to do. Well, there were three of them today running the 2. At least I'm happy 'bout that. Whew.
CWalNYC
um, are you people really listening to the New York post? do you know that the problem was resolved long ago? why do you think that the cars are running now and a fourth one on the way? that article is so late it isn't even funny. As all should know, the post is the worst paper in New York City. their stories are never accurate or on time. it is practically the National Enquirer of news papers.
Though they were the paper that two years ago mentioned the wiring problems in the first place with the Bombardier R-142s that was delaying their original 1999 arrival date.
The further back their arrivals in service are pushed towards the mayoral and gubernatorial elections, the more of a campaign issue they're going to become, which is bad news for both the MTA and Bombardier. If the Post is wrong, we should see the R-26/28s start departing from regular service by July. If the Post is right, it's another summer for the `birds on the 2, 5 and 7, since the R-62s aren't headed to Corona until the R-142s start getting the R-26/28s off the mainline.
the wiring issue back in late 97 early 98 was because the hired inexperienced employees who screwed up the wiring. 2, even if the redbirds(r-28/29) start to leave from the two line those redbirds will run on the 5 until the next batch of Bom. R-142's come in, replacing the badly corroded R-26.R-62A's are supposed to start moving out to Shea by august but, because the R-142A's are constantly being called out at times, it will take a little bit longer. there are a few R-142A's (kawasaki)still sitting in the unionport yard for problematic reasons. so this really isn't a problem but, the media will make it a problem as you see how the NY post tried today. they are soooo late because all that was mentioned happened in february, resolved in march and had those cars running by mid may like i have said in previous posts on this sight. and behind the three that are running today, another set is scheduled to start next week monday, possibly 6311-20. another set just arrived from Plattsburgh to be prepared for service. the Post (the newspaper) is a lie.
Then someone needs to tell MTA boss Kalikow, who was just taking over his new post at the time you say the problem occurred. Either he's clueless about his own agency's R-142 situation -- traveling to Plattsburgh to discuss a problem fixed seven weeks ago -- or he's doing some weird sort of "reverse spin" on the Post reporter, putting a dark face on a problem that's already been solved.
Kalikow's butt will be the one in the ringer come this fall if the R-142s have still not sent the R-26/28s to the scrapper, so for his sake, I hope you're right.
the last set to be pulled for breaking problems was i think 7241-7250 a few weeks ago. maybe they post use this to make news because they had nothing to talk about.
Just last night, i was on 6301-6310 on my way home from work. Everything worked fine. The post had better get their stories straight. BTW, I've been hearing about how the #5 line will be getting R142s pretty soon.
That looks like our photo.
thats great. another summer with these deadbirds
don't speak to soon as for the Post is is extremely late on that breaking problem.
"JACK GO HOME?" As far as I can tell, it's made the rounds. I won't speculate who stole what from whom, but I think I've seen that picture on at least two other sites before it popped up here.
Mark
We didn't steal it neither. The photographer has knowledge that his photo is posted here.
Sounds as if they'll be keeping the Bondo Squad around a while longer.
The problem with the brakes was actually caused by the MTA itself. When the cars were delivered the braking system was meant to work with the high speeds the train was able to reach but the TA slowed down the trains and did not adjust the braking system.
Initially there was an 8 inch gap between the brake shoes and the wheel (4 inches each side) it has now been reduced to 4 inches (2 each side). The redbirds gap is about 2 inches (1 each side)
The 8 inch gap would work fine if the train were running on the LIRR or MN because of the high speeds and greater braking distances.
so what is going to happen? is the ta going to fix it quick or are they going to hold the r142's until september? and if they do, that means the deadbirds are still going to run on the 7 for another year?
The TA already fixed it, the R142's are on the road NOW!!!!!!
One of the "truisms" of technology is that if you order something with intent to use it under specific operating conditions, and then change the rules without telling the manufacturer, something will indeed go wrong with it.
Was off-site testing done according to Bombardier criteria, based on MTA purchase orders, and then MTA testing done to different criteria? Does that explain why the brake problems weren't caught earlier?
of course. i have said this many times before (but many never listen because i am an inexperienced train buff) the breaks weren't defective. they worked but took longer to stop the train. Bombardier did not quite meet the specifications of the MTA. Basically the cars came in with little or no problems until the MTA did their tests. Bombardier found the solution, the cars are fixed, some in service while there is more to come. the media is a little bit late.
Xplorer Press, makers of nice photo/history text books of New York subways, now has a website and a new address.
So now you can see what they have and don't have in print. Sadly, "in print" doesn't include Greller/Watson's "Brooklyn Elevated."
I'm glad to see that the book on building the dual system is still in print at a bargain price, $17.95. It makes a nice companion to the recently released "Tunneling to the Future" book. Recently I bid on an original 1913 "New Subways for New York" booklet on e-Bay. I bid $31.12, and probably would have gone to $50.00. A bidding war erupted in the last minutes of the auction and the final price was $173.50! Moral of the story: When undecided about buying a railroad book, just do it; you won't regret it.
Speaking of Greller/Watson's "Brooklyn Elevated", a copy is currently up for sale on eBay, item #1147700447. I have no financial interest in the transaction, as I already own a copy, and you couldn't pry it out of my cold, dead hands.
Thank you for giving out the website for the Xplorer press.
BMTJeff
This story ran in the SI Advance on Monday:
Already threatened nationwide, bald eagles are dying when they get hit by trains along the Hudson River rail corridor from NYC to Albany, according to research by the state DEC. A study found that 10 of 16 bald eagles found dead between 1986 and 2000 were killed by AmTrak trains. Eight were found along the river; a ninth on the nose of a train and a tenth on tracks along the western shore of Lake Champlain.
Scientists believe the birds died as they fed near the tracks at times when their preferred food - fish - was scarce. in a couple of a cases, there was other rail-kill nearby.
"The situation is so perfect," Peter Nye from the DEC's Endangered Species Unit told the Times Union of Albany. "The train goes along and creates a smorgasbord of food, and the track is adjacent to prime bald eagle habitat."
Back in the mid 80's we hit a bald eagle around Columbus Montana with a BN freight train. The engineer (I was a brakeman then) reported it due to the bird's status.
Would a blast from the whistle help (assuming the engineer saw the bird)?
LIRR trains on the Greenport line not infrequently run over deer. I've heard an engineer say that turning off the train's headlights when the deer is spotted, and blasting the horn, sometimes works. If the headlights stay on, the deer usually freeze in place (hence the "deer in the headlights" expression) and get squashed.
I've heard that trains on the Alaska Railroad frequently kill moose.
Bummer.
Years ago, when my Dad dropped me off at UCLA in the morning, birds used to flock in front of his car in Westwood. He'd stop, and honk his horn a couple of times to get them to move. Some of these birds were really brazen; I had a crow land right in front of me at a picnic table and steal the lettuce out of my sandwich.
Great, more fuel for the NIMBY / Envirowackos :(
>>> A study found that 10 of 16 bald eagles found dead between 1986 and 2000 were killed by AmTrak trains <<<
Aren't statistics wonderful. This would give the impression that more than 50% of bald eagles who died were killed by trains. Of course in those 15 years many more than 16 eagles died in the wild, but their bodies were not found. Probably none of those other deaths were caused by trains. A rate of 0.7 eagles per year killed by trains is not that great a problem.
Tom
The R142 and 143 cars have quite a bit of black area on the outward facing ends of each unit. Painting the outward facing ends black on units of subway cars was tried very briefly in the 1970s on the H5 cars in Toronto as well, but it didn't last long because of concerns about the black ends making the trains difficult to see in tunnels. The formerly black ends of the H5s were quickly painted silver to match the rest of the car body and to be more visible in tunnels.
Anyways, why are the ends, or at least the upper half or two thirds, of the R142 and 143 cars in New York black? Presumably the visibility concerns would apply to New York's subway tunnels as well...
-Robert King
Don't headlights and taillights make that a moot point? In the bizarre circumstance that the headlights and taillights aren't working, there's not enough light in the tunnels to make a silver end that much more visible than a black end, I would think. And the train wouldn't be moving in any case.
Perhaps there are concerns about glare from lights in the tunnels and stations, and sunlight in elevated portions, blinding the T/O. The area under the windscreens of 747 jetliner cockpits are painted black for this reason.
A good question to ask our T/O and engineering Subtalkers. Anyone?
Well, if thats the case, then PATCO should remove the black paint from the ends of their cars. Anyhoo, that's why headlights were invented (not just for the driver/T.O. to see in dark places, but for the pedestrian/track crew to see the car/train as well).
I may be wrong on this, but hear me out. The painted ends on the cars are more then just paint...it looks to me like the black (and also red on the 142s) look like some sort of padding to me, which would make sense since Bombardier's website boasts that the 142s will be among the safest cars in North America. So are my eyes playing tricks on me, or am I onto something here? -Nick
That's a stupid idea. Name one situation where padding would help there? Two trains collide at 1 MPH?
That's a stupid idea. Name one situation where padding would help there? Two trains collide at 1 MPH?
I meant the idea was stupid, we all have stupid ideas, doesn't mean we're stupid.
I'm trying to be less of a jerk, hence this post.
Exactly, it is the couplers and anticlimbers that absorb the bulk of the collision. Red headlight frames(?) and black upper area won't do anything at all except look bent out of shape after an accident.
-Robert King
I think that's fiberglass. Sorta like the ends of every other subway car around.
the Reason why the Bombardier R-142 is considered the safest subway car in america is because the front of Bombardier cars are mostly stainless steal with built in CIZ's behind it,unlike Kawasaki's fiberglass one piece frame. (i think many should notice that) fiberglass cracks and creates a hole, stainless steel maleates and absorbs impact.
Nooo!!! Since when were frames made of fiberglass? They have to be stainless steel to hold up to work as a subway car nowadays. And the only kind the MTA is now ordering. If you were talking about the end door frame, that might be another story. The Bombardier end door frame is 3 pieces. Side, Top, and Side. The Kawasaki is 1 piece. I haven't been able to walk up to them and knock on them personally, but both of them look like steel to me. On the Kawasaki, it's more solid (1 piece).
i wasn't talking about the car frame being fiberglass. they are stainless steel and isn't the other way around? Kawasaki being 3 pieces and Bombardier being 1 piece? anyway i was talking about the front end of each motor cab. the face of the Kawasaki is a one piece fiber glass. the Bombardier face is 2 pieces, one piece fiberglass(1/4) and one piece stainless steel (3/4) in a frontal accident, one will survive the impact better than the other and will be fixed easier.
The Kawasaki is 1 piece and Bombardier is 3. It's the Bombardier with more pieces than the Kawasaki. Look here...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-ppw01.jpg
That is a picture of the R142 from Bombardier. I know, I know, the site caption says R142A but trust me on this, the R142A was NEVER delivered with a rubber storm door window. I guess Bombardier got yelled at for it and got metal frames into it. Now, look at the fiberglass part on top of the windsheild. There is a line indicating a seperation of parts. Therefore indicating the fiberglass part consists of 3 pieces alone. And then add the sliced 3 part door frame, you get 6 pieces in the front. Now look at the R142A from Kawasaki...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-7211b.jpg
1 piece fiberglass, 1 piece door frame. 2 pieces so far. I believe Kawasaki built a more solid car as it always does.
In Peter Dougherty's excellent Tracks of the NYC Subway book, he notes that the tail tracks south of Brooklyn Bridge station on the IRT used to be connected to the main line tracks leading to Fulton Street stop, but were disconnected in the 1960's due to a "superelevation" problem.
What is that?
I think it has to do with canted track structures that allow higher speeds on curves. If the degree of the bank is too steep you run into problems.
The outside rail on a curve is raised slightly higher than the inside rail to compensate for the train rounding the curve. The higher this outside track is, the afster a train can take a curve. This is alled a superelevatiion. The switch that used to connect to this area of rack was removed because of derailments that occurred coming off this switch onto the outside, or higher, rail.
--Mark
Back when there were these cute terms about sex-love life like how electricians, machinists, bakers etc "do it" I knew a BN brakeman with a hat that said "let a brakeman check your hotbox" which of course was one of his jobs on the RR when there were brakemen.
Thought that was cute. Take it as you wish.
For HeyPaul:
"Elevator Men Do IT Up and Down"
Let's seeeee... how do I say this "nicely"..
My significant other's homeline is the 6.
My personal lifelong homeline is the 9.
We take our POSITION rather seriously.
It's all in the "numbers", gentlemen.. ;c)
Not to drag this on but I will say enjoy every way you can; At 58 I'm not dead but a lot of water under the bridge.
For motormen and engineers...I'm thinking...about horn blowing?
Tell me it ain't long short, long short. Heh.
Back when there were these cute terms about sex-love life like how electricians, machinists, bakers etc "do it" I knew a BN brakeman with a hat that said "let a brakeman check your hotbox" which of course was one of his jobs on the RR when there were brakemen.
Thought that was cute. Take it as you wish.
Today, of course, he would be accused of sexual harrassment and would be lucky to avoid being fired.
story in the boston globe
As I have said before proving racial profiling is very hard. Also it is always way overblown.
Wanna bet?! Let me tell you something, racial profiling is par for the course with practically every law enforcement agency in the United States. Everytime I encounter those characters (be they the Baltimore Police, the Washington D.C. Police Department, and especially those monsters of the NYPD) they look at me with as as much affection as the Nazis looked upon the Jews. If you've got colored skin then they're dangereous. That's why I'm afraid whenever I ride the New York City Transit System; not of some crackpot with a gun but of some half witted cop who thinks that just because my skin is dark that I'm about to rob somebody. SO DON'T YOU EVER MAKE THE ASSINE CRACK THAT RACIAL PROFILING IS OVERBLOWN. IT EXISTS AND I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT!
Eric Dale Smith
Better be carful trevor logan!
"Everytime I encounter those characters (be they the Baltimore Police, the Washington D.C. Police Department, and especially those monsters of the NYPD) they look at me with as as much affection as the Nazis looked upon the Jews."
So every single cop is a racist? (I don't see ANY qualifiers in your message, like "some" or "many" or "most".) Even the black ones?
My mistake. MOST COPS are racist, especially the black ones since they take enormous pride in cracking open your head to prove that they "belong'.
Eric D. Smith
I second that. If your not a person of color chances are that you
dont have to go through what Eric discribed. Especially with the PD.
BTW: Important thing to remember: Just because a cop is color doesn't mean he is your friend and because a cop is white doesn't mean he is your enemy. Also keep couple dounuts handy. This will keep you out of trouble.
You've obviously had a bad experience with cops, and there are no acceptable excuses. The only appropriate response for society is to continue to push for reforms in training, and for accountability.
By the way, in the event of an unjustified detainment, a mellow attitude "Yes sir, no sir" and complete cooperation with the officer, refusing to be provoked even in the face of total stupidity by the officer, followed by taking complete notes, in writing, to yourself of everything that happened, including all conversation, the officer's name and shield number, are your best defense. If you allow yourself to be provoked, you'll make your attorney's job harder and lower your chances of success in a lawsuit. It will also help a nervous cop to calm down.
PS - I never got a chance to contact you (was in and out of NY too briefly). I apologize.
"Let me tell you something, racial profiling is par for the course with practically every law enforcement agency in the United States"
Very few if any law enforcement agencies support racial profiling. There is a small amount of people who work for the agencies who are racial profiling but that does not mean that the agencies support it.
"If you've got colored skin then they're dangereous. That's why I'm afraid whenever I ride the New York City Transit System; not of some crackpot with a gun but of some half witted cop who thinks that just because my skin is dark that I'm about to rob somebody. "
Considering that most rider are not white I find it had to believe that officers can follow every non-white persons every move. I've read study that claim dress and looks are more important then race, a black person wearing a suit and tie is no more likely to be arrested than a white person wearing a suit and tie. That doesn't make it right it shows that it is not racist.
"SO DON'T YOU EVER MAKE THE ASSINE CRACK THAT RACIAL PROFILING IS OVERBLOWN. IT EXISTS AND I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT!"
Overblown was a poor choice of words. I didn't say it didn't exist I just don't think it's as common as Jesse Jackson et all claim it is.
While waiting for a downtown train at City Hall yesterday, an out of service "R" (R46) rolled thru the station. Nothing unusual there, except the digital signage on the train read:"Long Island RR". Found this odd....
Maybe someone was playing a practical joke or the T/O decided that he wanted to fantasize about working on the LIRR.
BMTJeff
The front page of today's La Opinion, Los Angeles' Spanish language newspaper, has a picture and short description of an accident on Mexico City's Metro, "Metro Tasquena". One person was killed, 37 were injured, and it's attributed to human error. La Opinion has a website with the picture: www.laopinion.com.
I might be coming to NYC either this Saturday or Sunday. I got free tickets for the Metropolian Museum of Art, so I figured I'd use them. I've been there twice, so I know my way around there well. My only question is can anyone recommend some good places to eat around the city (not including Nathan's)? I want to eat somewhere that's got that "New York" flavor to it, not some crap I can get in any other city. Anywhere in the $5-20 range would probably better for me. If this seems a little too off topic, email me with suggestions instead. Thanks.
Every time I go to New York, I head to Astoria for Greek food. Take the N train to Broadway and walk east. Uncle George's is open 24 hours, has excellent food, and is moderately priced. There are other Greek restaurants in the area. Enjoy.
nowadays, there is nothing "new york" to eat from. everywhere you go you are gonna find food from other countries. its the "fad" of new york right now. all i can say is eat at the actors cafe on 9th ave. between 47th and 48th. thats real food there.
If you like a good pastrami sandwich go to Ben's deli on W38th St. between 7th and 8th (closer to 7th on the north side of the street).
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's some ideas...
For Italian - Cucina Stagionale corner of Bleecker & 7th in the Village is cheap and great food. Recently moved into a new place and now has a bar & wine list (used to be BYO). For a little more pricey but still a New York experience can't go wrong in Little Italy along Mulberry St. Try La Mela, on Mulberry north of Canal.
If you like Indian food try Lexington Ave around the high 20s. Lots of places to choose from, but might not be very lively on a weekend. Try east 6th St for lively and cheap Indian.
Sushi? try Yama at 92 W Houston St. Dessert? Caffe Dante on Sullivan St. between Houston and Washington Square, not sure of the address since it's not in Vindigo. Closer to Houston IIRC. Great tiramisu.
If you're a beer drinker, I hate to say it but Jeckyl & Hyde's also on 7th in the Village has probably the best beer selection in the city. Food is mediocre at best and priced like the theme restaurant that it is.
If you're a scotch drinker, treat yourself to a visit to Keen's Chop House (72 W. 36th St). Best scotch list in the city. Won't eat there for $5-$20 though!!! (going there tonight to indulge my meat & scotch habit)
For pure upscale lounge atmosphere, try the Campbell Apartment (inside Grand Central off the Vanderbilt Ave. "office" entrance, near the taxi stand), or the lobby bar of the Royalton Hotel (West 44th Street between 5th & 6th)
If you're feeling adventurous take the PATH to Hoboken. Avoid anything within two blocks of the train station. Lots of eats and bars along Washington Street. If you want to get together let me know. For mexican food and amazing frozen margaritas try East L.A. at 508 Washington St. If you want cheap steak try Arthurs Tavern corner of Washington & 2nd. If you want a burger try the Black Bear also on Washington near 2nd. And if you want to get together in Hoboken drop me an email!
-Dave
The Campbell Apt charges $10 just for a drink! Probably out of budget range.
However, also out of range, try Peter Luger in Bklyn. Best steak in the world, real NY atmosphere.
Yeah I figured "upscale lounge atmosphere" would be the tip-off as to the price...
And as for Luger's, well... I'm in no hurry to go there. See my original post on Keen's.
Whoa! Dave sure is one webmaster who not
only knows his NYCSubways(.org) but he
sure knows his shiznit around town, too!!
Cheers2Dave!
:)
For unique NYC places to eat, might I suggest Lundy's in Sheepshead Bay, Peter Luger's Steak House (the original) in Williamsburg, or Tavern on the Green in Manhattan (Central Park).
Getting to Sheepshead Bay or Williamsburg would include railfanning via BMT Lines of course....:-D
BMTman
I got free tickets for the Metropolian Museum of Art
Sell the tickets to a tourist for $5. The museum only requires a "suggested donation" of $10. Pay a nickel.
Before somebody calls this dishonest, remember the museum stands on city property rent free and tax free. The system works very well.
Why would you go to the museum in the first place if the enjoyment you got from the art was only worth a nickel to you? Why not just toss it in the fountain out front and go somewhere that is more worth your time?
My suggestion to the original poster is hand in the free tickets -and- pay the $10 just to annoy Pig. Then become a museum member for the $75/year and never even go. He'll love that.
-dave
p.s. i realize some people enjoy art and can't afford the $10, which is why it's "suggested". However I doubt the original poster nor Pig fall into that category of museum-goer...
That's why the 'honor system' of donations fails. A policy of pay based on abilty should be implemented, but going about it is tricky.
I would imagine most visitors to the Metropolitan Museum donate more than the suggested porcine amount of five cents. I don't think the Met's system has failed; the Met would be the authority on that issue.
I'm reminded of a delicious scene in a W.C. Fields movie. Fields is in a restaurant (a hash house) and admonishes the waitress to check her tips - "There's an awful amount of counterfeit money around." She glares at him and says, "Well, if I find any counterfeit nickels, I'll know where they came from."
Why would you go to the museum in the first place if the enjoyment you got from the art was only worth a nickel to you?
How do you know how much a nickel is worth to me? I don't pay for anything if I have to. I use cracks to register NagWare (Shareware that warns you to register). Whenever there's an honor system to buy something, I don't. I don't have all that money to spend, and if I couldn't spend a nickel on the museum, I just wouldn't go. They get more from my being able to pay a nickel or a dollar (I never actually got up the nerve to pay less than 25 cents), then if they forced a $10 rate and I would never go.
If I wasn't a college student and had a full time job, I'd be able to afford to pay full price for everything and not be dishonest.
By your own admission, you are dishonest. (Calling attention to your handle is a disservice to an intelligent mammal.) I was a college student once, maybe 100 years ago, and it would never had occurred to me to pay five cents to visit the Art Institute of Chicago. Am I missing something here?
It's not dishonest. I can understand where my use of software as I've mentioned is dishonest, but the Museum's suggested donation system is specifically for people who cannot pay the full price but still want to go.
I don't know how the Art Institute of Chicago prices admission, nor do I know how much five cents were worth when you were in College.
If I wasn't a college student and had a full time job, I'd be able to afford to pay full price for everything and not be dishonest.
Heh heh, just wait until you're out of college and working full time. Sure, you'll have more money, but you'll also have a lot more bills (including, probably, the loans used to finance your college education).
I beg to differ.
The museum's admission policy is not "$10, or less if you can't afford the full price." It's "pay what you wish, and we recommend $10." If you think it's worth $10, pay $10. If you think it's worth $5, pay $5. If you think it's worth a quarter, pay a quarter. I'd rather see cultured New Yorkers who pay a quarter to go to the museum than uncultured New Yorkers who are turned away by a high admission charge.
I've heard a story, probably apocryphal, of a high school art class that went to the museum. To cover the class of 25, the teacher paid a quarter. I will say, that is tacky.
The last time I was at the Museum of Natural History close to half the museum was closed for various functions. If I had paid full price, I would have been furious.
Sell the tickets to a tourist for $5
If I were to do that, I know I could get over $10 for those tickets, there are some stupid people out there.
Speaking of "suggested donation" The Onion has a short article on the subject, scroll down and read "Area Woman Can't Understand Concept of Suggested Donation"
I want to eat somewhere that's got that "New York" flavor to it,
not some crap I can get in any other city.
There's always the Carnegie Deli ... just remember to duck when you hear gunshots!
Ellen's Stardust Diner - B'way and 51 St - Can't miss it; one side of the building is done as a train.
Serendipity's - 60 St between 2nd and 3rd Aves; north side of street. Good food; varied menu; large servings. Save room for dessert - they do wonderful stuff with ice cream!
Alex L: do you know why Ellen's Stardust Diner @ B'way and 51st Street is done up as a subway car (A Division R-21 type)?
Answer: the owner is a former Miss Subways!!!
BMTman
1) How about some really good Israeli food (with a New York twist)? Ride the E,F,G,R to 71-Continental or the F to 75th Av station and try out some of the restaurants on Queens Blvd. They're cheap and good.
2) If you're into Puerto Rican food (I love it) and you really want to stuff your face, ride the #4 train to Moshulu in the Bronx and you'll find some great eateries along Jerome Avenue. You'll eat so much for under $10 they'll have to roll you out the door (and the TA might ask for a second token at the station. The elevated line can only take so much weight, you know).
If the "New York" flavor you're looking for is a huge menu at a tiny hole-in-the-wall with unbelievably fast service, cheap prices and a staff and clientele of "only in New York" characters, try Big Nicks on the west side of Broadway near 77th Street.
Then you can just hop the M79 over to the museum.
CG
Some spots have improved. East New York on the 3 or L lines. nice new townhouses being built. Check the J train down Broadway in Bed-Stuy, at night it gets a litle tough, during the day you can walk around under the EL. Lot's of people should be safe. Go see what has happened to both 138th street and Charlotte street in the South Bronx. It's gentrified itself to the point you don't even think you're in the Bronx. Charlotte looks more like Jersey now than the rough and tough South Bronx. Take southern Blvd up there. Some real nice spots.Last take Jerome and head over to Yankee Stadium. that whole area at night is rough but you'll love it during the day. Nothing like it in NYC.
Enjoy the wkend...
For Chinese, try "New Hop Kwan" on Centre Street, one block north of Canal. And of course you get to see the Canal St. complex.
On Monday morning, find an AM radio (if you can!) and tune in to WCBS 880. Your humble SubTalker will be doing Transit and Weather Together. See you on a Redbird at the STORMFAN WINDOW!
In Chinatown, I prefer Wong Kee, corner of Mott & Hester. There's no beating their cold roast pork (heated up) and Wong kee Steak.
--Mark
Dojo's Restaurant (Sidewalk Homestyle)
St. Marks Place
6 to Astor Pl.
Walk 3 blocks east
Mesa De Espana (Latin)
28th Street & Park Av.
6 to 28th Street.
Walk 1 block west
WWF New York (Self Explanatory)
43rd St. & Broadway
Times Square & 7th Ave.
Walk 1 block north
For Italian:
Rocco's Calamari (Ft. Hamilton Pkwy and 64th Street Brooklyn, off the N train stop at Ft. Hamilton Pkwy)
L & B Spumoni Gardens (86th Street between the B and N trains in Brooklyn.
Vincent's Clam Bar (No convenient transit) Cross Bay Blvd and 159th Avenue, Howard Beach Queens.
Randazzo's Clam Bar (Emmons Avenue near Ocean Avenue).
For Columbian:
Tierras Colombianas (82nd Street Station on 7) Roosevelt Avenue between 82 and 83 Streets.
And there will always be Gray's Papaya at 72nd and Bway in Manhattan, but they raised their price for two dogs and a papaya to $2.45. Highway robbery.
Check this article out on how desiel loco's work
http://www.howstuffworks.com/diesel-locomotive.htm
Great shots of Cab, trucks, etc
Very nice website!
Howstuffworks is a great site.
I was intrigued by the description of using sand to give greater traction when accelerating and braking. Is this only used when all the power is coming from a single locomotive?
When I was growing up in England, we had DMU trains, which had a diesel motor/generator set on alternate cars. Is this arrangement in use anywhere in the US?
John.
Howdy ... I'll take the first part ... "sand" is actually compressor air along with sprayed sand from the sandboxes, and if the sand is "enabled" on your locomotive(s), any time you get a "wheel slip" indication, a blast of sand is dispensed. There's also a manual button if you feel you need more since "wheel slip" is a VERY bad thing. You can literally "burn through" a rail if you have too much wheel slip and if you're pulling an overload, you might actually "lose it" on an upgrade if you can't apply additional sand. Usually it's automatic and you CAN have all your locos blowing sand if they're all going through a wheel slip.
As to the DMU's as you describe, I haven't seen any myself on this side of the puddle, but wouldn't be surprised to learn SOMEONE's doing it. :)
Hey Selkirk, didn't I read on this site somewhere that subway cars spray a little water on the rails as they are going around curves, to reduce the ear-killing squealing that usually results?
Chances are the water is applied at the rails. I can't see filling up a water tank on the subway cars themselves ... hell, back in my day, they had GREASE squirters on curves. I guess grease fell out of favor. Musta been a 1950's thing. :)
New Information:
The R-160 Contract has now a R-160A Contract with it. The R-160 Class Cars will replace the R-38 to R-42 Class Cars, while the R-160A Class Cars will replace the R-44 Class Cars.
The order will consist of 85 4-Car (ABBA) Units & 65 5-Car (ABBBA) Units. The Look of the cars have no been fully disclosed yet, however speculation is that we're looking at cars similar looking to the R-110B or the R-143.
The estimated Contract award is October, 2001. The maximum time frame for completion of design, build, delivery and acceptance of the first test units shall be forty-two months from Notice of Award. The
operating units required for testing will consist of two four-Car Units and two five-Car Units.
I will post other info as I get it.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Wow! They're replaceing the R44 already? Or do you mean the R40, which you do not mention.
:-) Andrew
R-160 is R38 through R42 (including the R-40) and the R-160A is for the R-44.
Also the R-32 and R-46 class will go out for second rehabs and the R-68 class will get thier first rehabs which will include upgrades to AC Traction and so forth.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
sweeeet!
i wonder who the manufacturers will be. maybe the same as now because they are the only ones with the best manufacuring/time ability.
Based on their previous work, Kawasaki and Pullman-Standard (for their work on the R-142As and R-46s) are my bets and hopes--the 142As are beautiful and the 46s are my favorite B-div equipment.
Dan
Pullman-Standard has been out of the passenger railcar building business for about 20 years. Bombardier has the patents, if memory serves.
David
"Pullman-Standard has been out of the passenger railcar building business for about 20 years. Bombardier has the patents, if memory serves."
The best evidence of this is the 1973 Pullman built push-pull cars on New Jersey Transit. All other push-pulls afterwards are Bombardier built.
Bill "Newkirk"
What about the R62 and R62 A. Will they get AC Propulsion etc as you stated will be done for the R68/ R68A.
What else will be done for the R68 Class.
I didn't hear anything about the R62/R62A Class Cars. For the R68/R68A Class, you're probably looking at digital signs, grafitti/scratchitti removal, AC Traction. This would also be prime time for the TA to do that bench seat conversion that was discussed a while back.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
they would have to replace that mirror interior. i predict that they will go with something cardbord like. something like what the r-44/46/142/142A would have. it would probably be built with grey with blue seats. thats if it will happen.
Likely the R-62As will be going out for something, since if they go over to the Flushing Line to replace the R-33/36 WFs they'll have to be modified to handle CTBC after work on the Canarsie Line for the R-143s is completed. The MTA may decide to do the AC traction conversion at the same time the other work is done.
My bet would be that R142 series will be moved to Flushing, as other IRT lines will not get CBTC anytime soon, next after Flushing will be other B division lines, sheduled for signal replacement.
Arti
Hell...if the MTA was going to do a major rebuild of the R-62As--adding CTBC and AC traction.....it would be really nice if they remodelled the interiors, and got rid of those ugly stainless steel wall panels and the sculpted seats....
...Not likely, though.
Heck. I like the silver interiors. They're probably the cheeriest interiors in the system. I don't like that they got kinda scratched up, but that seems to be a lot worse on the windows than on the walls.
I'm with you on the sculpted seats though.
:-) Andrew
About the seats - I don't mind them either way, and I don't want to sound like a smartass, BUT I'd just like to point out that the buses have the same style of seats AND they're smaller! Yet not many complain about that.
ANYWAY,
I like the stainless interiors also.
I don't know, just something about them is more appealing to me than the softer and homely R-44/46 interior.
To me, the stainless interiors seem to evoke that "streetness-toughness-no nonsense" appearance associated with the subway.
It seems weird, the R68s and R68As out of Coney Island have less scratchitti than the Concourse R68s.
Forget the seats and walls, make the money go farther. Replace roll signs with digital ones, and add interior next stop/time digital signs, and automated announcements like the 142s....New Yorkers are SICK of mumbling conductors! -Nick
Oh good god! Can you say "car shortage?"
Dan
That is a little different that what Train Dude has posted in the past stating (if I remember right) that they weren't going to do the great big overhauls anymore.
I guess the TA has changed its mind, especially with the whole deal of power saving and the AC Traction motors! AC Traction is the wave of the future of rail power, DC Current is just dying out!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I suppose this isn't strictly a "GOH" to fix current items but more like adding new "dealer installed options" to replace them because they're more modern, or durable, even if the older items aren't broken ...
--Mark
True.IF it aint broke.don't fix it.
"R-68 class will get thier first rehabs which will include upgrades to AC Traction and so forth."
I have a need for speed with these cars!! -Nick
The R-68s had their 12 year SMS in 1999 - 2000. This included Adtranz E-Cam propulsion packages, new AC and linking to 4-car units. The E-cams will be with us until at least 2011.
That doesn't balance. (85*4)+(65*5)=665.
That would replace R38 (200), R40(400), R32GE(10), and the R42 that got their GOH from the T.A.(50) as opposed to M.K..
That leaves a need for 350 more to finish off the M.K. R42.
Of the remaining 270 R44, they need another 340.
Hmmmmm. You are quite correct. Here is a link in from which I'd gotten the info: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/procure/rfppage.htm and Go Down To Contract R34160!
Also I found something interesting about the 2nd Avenue Subway Line Project. Here is that info also: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/procure/archeng/archeng.htm
Info about The Car Class replacement came from a reliable source at the TA. So I'm only passing along the buck. Question...Did you subtract the cars scrapped and so forth?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The trouble with such information is that it's usually so dated that it can't be relied on as accurate. As far as your information goes, it's not exactly the same as what I've gotten from other sources. The R-160 contract was last reported to be for 660 cars plus an option for 330 cars (which has already been exercised). No figures yet on how many A and how many B cars but an educated guess that except for the east, all cars purchased will be configured A-B-B-B-A. Eastern car configuration will be A-B-B-A. Of course, this information will likely change as priorities shift in the Senate this week. Such is life in Mass-Transitville.
The option could not have been exercised, since the contract hasn't been let yet; the deadline for submitting proposals was yesterday (May 23). What MAY have happened is that it's been decided (whether internally or publicly, by informing the proposers) that the contract has been changed to 990 cars.
David
The committee chairmanships will not be changing until the tax cut bill is signed into law by Bu$h, due to the fact that Jeffords' party change IS CONTINGENT ON the tax cut being signed. Jeffords wants that tax cut, he just couldn't stomach the rest of the Reps' party line. His move will surely grease the skids for the conference committee (we may even see a finished tax cut closer to Bu$h's original proposal).
The sad part is that everyone has different sources, and everyone gets different details. Somewhere in the middle the information meets. I'm not saying my info is a 100% correct, nor is yours. I'm just going off of what I get and like I post at the end of each piece of info I get, I say "I will keep you posted as things change." I figured about the 330 extra as the R-44s are slated in this replacement.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I'm sure everybody's right ... when you write up a "bid proposal" (I used to do this by the way up here in Albany) you place within the "detailed specifications" part a quantity you expect to purchase. You can specify such things as "the successful bidder shall provide 330 units with an option to increase the purchase to 660 units. Please provide bids based on both quantities." or something similar depending on what a particular agency's boilerplates might modify it by.
All purchases by state agencies must be approved by the Office of General Services (OGS) procurement people ... they generally do if the wording meets all of the insane requirements. So it's no big deal as far as the MTA goes to say "we'll definitely by X number but please also tell us how much Y number will cost since we will want to do that if the funding permits."
The "successful bidder" will provide prices for each and as long as the potential for a change order is spelled out in the original RFP (Request for Proposals) then you don't have to RE-bid if you change the quantity as long as it was allowed for in the original contract. Political subdivisions are used to "anything can happen day" as a way of life. :)
If they're planning to replace the R-44s they'll certainly need all the 330 cars that will consist of the contract if they want to replace the R-44s. They probably should add more cars to the R-160A contract if they can just to ensure they can replace all of the R-44s. Then they should take the best of the R-44s and make them part of the museum fleet.
BMTJeff
"the R-160A Class Cars will replace the R-44 Class Cars"
OK, I can see replacing the NYCTA R-44s. But how about the R-44s on Staten Island ? They are basically the same R-44s as the denizons of 8th Ave/Fulton St, being built the same year.
Any plans on replacing the Staten Island R-44s ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm gonna guess that's a "no", if only because the Staten Island Railway cars never put up with anywhere near the punnishment that subway cars get.
:) Andrew
Do the SI R44's have better maintenance records?
No idea! I was just speculating.
:-) Andrew
...but consider that they don't get anywhere near the use that R44s get on, say, the (A) line. They don't run as frequently. They have much smaller passenger loads. They probably have had less door abuse, less stop-and-go movement, you name it.
:-) Andrew
Interesting that they would phase out the 75-foot R-44s and replace them with 60-foot R-160 cars. Either it shows the MTA has decided the next generation of cars will be compatable with all lines on the B Division, or they're doing a swap, and will replace the R-32s later with 75-footers because it's easier to work the contract order this wey.
Or maybe its a mix 60ft and 67ft cars or all 67 ft cars. Try the math, see how much in feet are being replaced. Then try to find which new length comes closer in replacement. 60ft or 67ft, 110bs or 143s.
avid
Perhaps the MTA decided that the 75-foot car concept didn't live up to expectations.
The original selling points of the 75-foot cars were: 1) Fewer cars to buy, and fewer cars to maintain; and 2)Larger passenger capacity.
But the disdvantages were far greater: 1) With 75-foot cars, when a car needs to be taken out of service, it means fewer cars available for passenger service than what you would have with 60-foot cars (sort of the inverse of No.1, above); 2) Fewer doors per train means slower passenger loading and unloading; 3) Tunnel infrastructure needed modifications (on BMT), the cost of which offset cost savings in purchase; 4)requires locked storm doors and full-width cabs (although these cabs will probably be the norm for all new rolling stock, anyway, to facilitate OPTO); 5) longer car length and added car weight more subject to metal fatigue cracking problems.
Because of reason #3 above, the MTA never really made the BMT Eastern Division ready for 75-footers. With a fleet as large as New York City's, uniformity of rolling stock really pays off, and I suppose that is indeed a motivating factor in returning to the 60-foot concept. With the 67-foot 110-B, they were probably looking for a compromise; a longer car that would work on ALL B-division trackage. For some reason, they decided against that idea.
It would make car swapping in Div B a lot easier. It will bring more doors to the platform which as ridership continues to climb and platforms are more and more crowded it moves the pax (Cattle) in and out of the car faster.
During rush hour it seems to take a long time to get the doors closed on the Hippos and Rhinos. It seems the R32 E trains handle the situation at 53/Lex alot better than the R46 F's.
The R-32s can handle the rush hour loads better than any of the 75' cars. If you have a 600' long train consisting of 75' long cars with four doors on each side of the car you have a total of 32 doors on each side of the train. If you have a 600' long train consisting of 60' long cars with four doors on each side of the car you have a total of 40 doors on each side of the train. Check the math and you'll see why the 60' cars can handle rush hour loads better than the 75' cars.
BMTJeff
Just goes to prove that the 75 footers were indeed a bad idea, at least for the NYCS. I'm glad the TA has decided to not order anymore 75' cars.
Why only the R32s?
I was just using the R-32s as one example of a 60' long subway cars. This would also apply to the R-38/40/40M/42s which are also 60' long and the doors are configured in the same fashion.
BMTJeff
Trains with 60 foot cars on B Div seem to take the curves much smoother. The subways weren't built for the large "Hippo" 75 footer car. I'm glad to see future B division stock will not follow the design of the Hippo. :-)
Between the R 68/68A classes,hands down the R68a WINS BY A LANDSLIDE. Kawasaki clearly knows how to build rail cars and the problems the R68's had did not occure on the 68a's. They also appear to be better builtand they run smoother. Say what you what,[ you nay sayers] THE R68A RULES!!!!!!!
I have to agree, I'm a HUGE Kawasaki Railcar fan anyways, so like the R68As are in line for me. However they can do away with those Westinghouse R-68s, but what can we do, they are here for a long long time!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
GOOD EVENING Mister Logan.
Yah!!! Metal window boarders!!! Not rubber!!!
I think at the same time they should consider an early retirement for the R-68s and the R-68As. They don't move that fast and the brakes aren't very good either. These cars are often referred to as the "Hippos". "Big Lumbering Beasts". Maybe they can sell the R-68s to another subway system that can accommodate 75 foot long cars. They might want to upgrade the motors and the brakes however.
BMTJeff
If federal funds were used to buy the R-68s they can't be retired or sold off for 25 years unless the MTA wants to pay the federal government back for the funds that went into the R-68s and not take any funding for the new cars. Why are they considering retirement for 10 year old with the best MDBF anyway?
I really doubt they're gonna retire the R68 and R68A any time soon. They're brand new! They're the most reliable cars in the system! And they are NOT lumbering beasts!
OY!
:-) Andrew
The R68s are only 13 years old, so yes, they will be around for awhile. Hopefully the rehab will help these cars, since usually they do run slow, and when they actually do go at higher speeds the cars shake...something has to be done about this. -Nick
They don't go slow, and when they go fast they don't shake.
It's just that the only time you feel it going fast is when it shakes, not when it's smooth.
Pig,
Is it the area that the B and D go through that make them go slow in certain parts, and make them shake? I have never been on a mostly fast or smooth R68 ride ever...so I am curious. -Nick
It seems that the shaking is what gives the perception of the train going faster. Noisiness too.
Pigs, Just take a B, D, or F (R-46 Rino) from Manhattan to Coney Island. You will think that your World has s-l-o-w-e-d d-o-w-n t-o a c-r-a-w-l ... yuck.
Mr t__:^)
Okay - so we can put this to rest once-and-for-all, here is actual physical proof that the R-68s are much slower than other car classes.
Max. speed level tangent track:
R-68 = 40 MPH
R-38 = 40 MPH.
Maximum acceleration (AW0):
R-68=3.0 MPH/Sec.
R-38 = 3.0 MPH/Sec.
Max. Brake rate (AW3)
R-68 = 3.2 MPH/Sec.
R-38 = 3.2 MPH/Sec.
The above numbers have been verified by NYC Transit Division of Car Equipment Engineering & Technical Support.
Now I know we are going to get a spate of posts from the Ben Franklin group - those who can prove otherwise by means of personal observation. You know what I'm talking about. On such and such a date I cas on a C train that passed a D train on CPW so the R-68s must be slower. To those, I will not accept those reports as fact unless you have videotape to back up your claim.
And this is going to change the debate ... how? (sorry, needed to be said)
I do not know but I tend to think that it'll make no difference. We've been discussing this very same issue for nearly 2 years now and for lack of a better word, there are 4 or 5 assholes who don't seem to get it. They do not understand the difference between opinion and fact. Their creedo seems to be, "Don't confuse me with facts. My mind is made upt." I have resisted using the 'killfile' but for this group, they have been added to my 'dumb-head' file. I will ignore them for life.
Heh. Well, hopefully I'll avoid that fate. When I left the city, the 44's were the new kids on the block. Kinda hard to have an opinion one way or another for cars I never rode or worked ... the ones I actually liked are long gone so matters not to me. I *will* note however that it's a genuine shame that the trains can't stretch out their "legs" and gallop like they used to - that does seem to be a universal common complaint here that the "rapid transit" isn't any longer. My guess is that this is the REAL problem to so many, and the equipment is getting blamed ...
Fortunately for me, I still have my memories. That'll do. :)
[... a universal common complaint here that the "rapid transit" isn't any longer. My guess is that this is the REAL problem to so many, and the equipment is getting blamed ...]
From a "service" prospective the TA has lost their way, i.e. their solution to every incident in the system is to install more timers or otherwise restrict/slow service down. RAPID transit should get you there faster then walking. To my mind there realy isn't any good reason why the express should go at express speed & the locals should move a little faster ... re-tain the man/woman don't hamstring the system.
Case in point ... anything over 40 is fast in NYC, but 50 is in Boston & they do that speed frequently on every run vs. it being the exception rather then the rule here.
Mr t__:^)
I was AMAZED at some of the things I've read about the slowdowns in the year and change since I found this place. As you know, there was never any such thing as a speedometer but you could pretty much get an idea of how fast you were going, especially if you had highway vehicles adjacent to your run as a reference point and the old cars could easily do 50 or better with the controller in the third point. You'd do 40 if you saw yellows down the rails of course.
Sure less damage happens if you go off a switch and strike the beams at 30 than at 50 but one has to wonder why they don't just have more of the supervisors randomly get on trains, take a ride and see if a particular MM is behaving stupidly and take them off the rails for regrooving or soap and hose duty until they learn to chill their jets.
Sure you don't play chicken with the GT's but at the same time after your 100th run down a line, you do get to know which GT's mean something and which ones don't and you SHOULD know what 15 MPH means and how fast columns go by when you're doing so, you should know when your tenth car has cleared the interlock so you can wrap it. Strikes me as pretty damn silly to have flashing lights to tell you you're going to fast.
But it does strike me as though even if they completely automate the trains, the speed restrictions would still remain when the real issue would appear to be that there are people on the railroad that should be hosing down the tiles instead ... have things REALLY gotten that bad? For what the TA *used to* pay, they *used to* manage to hire people that were WORTH what they were paying to pilot the beasties.
Train Dude, I would like to team with you to do a real scientific experiment.
At night, on a "closed" stretch of track, with one motorman. Three trainsets of R-68s and three trainsets of Slant-40s. Fixed starting and stopping points, including an upgrade, downgrade (with no timers!) and plenty of level, tangent track. Three runs for each trainset, all under the exact same conditions. Average all of the results, and compare.
THAT will be proff. Uh, proof.
Sounds great -- "The First Annual MTA-New York City Transit Subway Time Trials (B Division)"
Set it up either between 125th and 59th Street on Central Park West (full underground time trial area) or between Chuch Ave. and Kings Highway on the Brighton Line (full exterior time trial area). They could make it like the Indy 500 time trials and sell viewing areas on the local platforms between stations (special Metrocard surcharge), maybe even use those digital platform displays to show the times in 10th of a second for each train.
No NYC station carries the NASCAR broadcasts, but maybe WCBS can be coerced into doing play-by-play on this historic event, eh Todd?
If it works out we can follow it up with the A Division time trials between Times Square and 96th Street on Broadway -- R-142s vs. their bitter but rusty rivals, the R-26/28 Redbirds. You could also do it between Grand Central and 125th, but the local platform viewing areas would be cut down to only 103rd and 110th streets that way :-)
Wow ... subway DRAG RACING! KEWL! Just like the fabulous fifties all over again! (can we perhaps find some staging lights?)
Close the Rockaway line and kets let it on, man!
I can just see Train Dude headed for the bottle of thorazine after this one. :)
Nope, this is NOT drag racing. It's a scientific test, on a single track, one run at a time. Over and over with a sample of trainsets under like conditions.
Oh I know ... I was just conjuring up images since the MTA is never going to buy into that idea. Although ... maybe the Film Office might be able to convince FOX that it'd make a great hour of television. :)
Sounds like a good idea, Todd. Maybe the MTA can get Bernie Goetz to fire the starter pistol! :-) -Nick
Loaded with blanks, of course.:-)
Unless lightning strikes the R40's or some other bizzare act of god befalls the slants, the R68 will lose every single heat of that race.
Have Heypaul race one of those on his bicycle.:-)
Todd, You know that if I proposed an idea like that, the heads of the Department of Subways would re-assign me to monitoring WEPS out in the Rockaways. - No Thnaks. I had proposed to do it in a bit less controlled manner - last year. Time the rides on the N line from 5th Ave to the home signal controlling the 11th St. cut. Time each interval and record maximum speed, regardless of equipment. Since the N uses R-32s, R-40s, R-68 and R-68A, you'd get the greatest possibility of variation.
That would be a realistic test because it factors in performance
on grades. However, variations in timer handling might muddle
the results.
The whole system is SLOW, so I don't know why people get all excited
about which car class is the SLOWEST. If you look at HP/weight ratio,
which you brought up the last nth time this topic came around, the
R68s are the losers. Theoretically, the only place where that
will produce a noticeable difference is in balancing speed when
climbing a grade.
What's the use? Just about the only time we'd ever get perfectly controlled factors for such a comparrison, are during the mandated 'System Safety' brake testing. Besides, there are some who refuse to accept fact as such because their minds can not comprehend all of the forces at work on a moving subway car. As such, they refuse to accept the results from these tests because they can't square them with their own mis-informed ideas about what the results should be.
Right, like I said, basically the entire fleet is currently at
about the same (depressingly slow) standard of performance.
There may some slight variations by car class but their overall
contribution to the bottom line (running time) is too small
to measure. About the only interesting related topic might be
performance comparisons between the R142 and R62 orders [it's
been my observation that with the AC traction package, these cars
have much better mid-range acceleration]
Hey Dude, get this. I like the R-68's. They're featured on my Sea Beach train along with the R 32's and one other that skips me at the moment. When I went railfanning with some of my subway pals on April 1, I couldn't get over how all of them bagged on the R-68. I kept my mouth shut because it was nice day and we had fun, but I couldn't figure it out. From what I've been reading lately, however, those gluys know a hell of a lot more than me about it because I seem to be a minority of four or five.
Fred, remember when you were a kid and you waited for the Ice Cream man to come around on those hot summer days. Now which was faster, the modern looking Good Humor truck or that Clumsey looking Bungalow Bar truck?
Of course I digress because we really don't have enough information to make an evaluation. It seemed the Bungalow Bar truck was faster in my neighborhood but could be he drank less and the good humor truck was in more demand. Of course we never knew about engine sizes or transmissions or wind resistance either.
In much the same way, your 'friends' have taken what little they know about the subject and have come to some insupportable conclusions. They just keep making themselves look like asses.
Thanks for the memory tickle there ... "Bungalow Bar tastes like tar, the more you eat the sicker you are" ... funny how the Good Humor dewed was the one who taught us that. Forebearers of modern "competitive thoughts" ...
In Brownsville it was, "Eat Good Humor - get a tumor!"
Heh. Competition at its finest. Today, we have Microsoft. :)
I have ridden enough R-68s and they give me the feeling that they are slowpokes not to mention the weak braking performance of these cars. When I was on the April Fools' Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred everyone derided the R-68s. We rode on an R-46 on the "G" line and noticed that it accelerated and braked better than the R-68s. I don't know why that some people think that the R-68s are good cars when many other people think that they stink.
BMTJeff
Selkirk, as part of the 50s club, I remember that rhyme, all right.
Couldn't help myself ... I was addicted to the "Chocolate Eclair" bars and that one with the red white and blue frosting on it. Bungalow bar just didn't quite have that much "death by chocolate" ... but yeah, it was a catchy tune. :)
LOL.....Thanks for the "tastes like tar" reminder...It was a reference to the roof of the trucks IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
We won't even try to contemplate the process behind ... "Mr. SOFTEE" ...
Have you heard Eddie Murphy's Ice Cream Man routine? Mr. Softee is mentioned.
Heh heh heh ... yeah, that's what I was thinking when I posted. It has managed to divert the 68's onto a siding. That was my intent. :)
In Long Island City, Queens, where I lived for 12 years, Bungalow Bar was tops. We always waited for him to come down our 12th Street. The second most popular was Topsy Turvy, but only the Yankee fans bought from him because he like the Bombers. Good Humor? He did his business at Queensbridge or Rainy Park because he didn't stand a ghost of a chance to getting any street business. Ironic, isn't it? Bungalow Bar Man was a Dodger fan so all us Dodger fans bought only from him, and Topsy got the Yanks. I didn't know who Good Humor rooted for and I didn't give a damn----and neither did anyone else. Thanks for bringing back another memory for me.
Maybe Good Humor was a Giants Fan.:-)
The junk food I most associate with the Yankees is Yoo Hoo, because of those commercials with Yogi Berra saying, "Mee-hee for Yoo-Hoo"
A few years ago I read the ingredients on the label of a Yoo Hoo bottle. No wonder Yogi talks the way he does.
If I'm not mistaken Yogi Berra either a) owned Yoo Hoo ouright, b) was a partner in it, or c) was a major stockholder...in that order??In any event he had an interest in the firm so could see why he'd plug it.
No mention of his ownership on their website . But, they do mention the ad campaign he was involved in.
Peace,
ANDEE
YOO HOO is a drink that I would use only if without any fluid intake in the middle of the desert.
Curt
Yes, It is indeed nothing more than chocolate flavored water inundated with dairy whey which reeks havoc with my GI tract.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps Yoo-Hoo's motto should have been "Better living Through Chemistry"
Well I'm glad we all agree on that. It would amaze me if anyone really liked that drink. It tasted lousy.
which soy or yoo hoo. Soy Milk is very popular with Asians, especially in Japan, Hong Kong and the Philippines
Lactose intolerance is more common there.
AMEN...............
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm not sure I'd even take it there Big Daddy. At least I'm still alive in the desert. If I took a slug of Yoo Hoo I might not be able to make that statement. What a terrible excuse for a drink.
I was going to leave this alone (since it isn't subway related really) but one REALLY has to ask themselves why a city that had EGG CREAMS to begin with ever NEEDED Yoohoo ... :)
I can see peddling it in places that DIDN'T have Egg Creams ...
Oh GAWD.....here we go...
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. Last I saw, there were no R68's in the ingredients. :)
Not...YET
Peace,
ANDEE
Is it true that a Yoo-Hoo digests slower than an Egg-Cream?
Digests WHAT? :)
I never personally could figure out what the attraction was for Yoohoo myself - it was a poor substitute for a candy store Egg Cream, and of all the places you could go for one, Gem Spa on second avenue had among the better ones in Manhattan. However, since I lived in the Bronx, didn't have to go downtown for those. I understand Brooklyn also had Egg Cream technology, even along the Sea Beach line. If I remember correctly, the Yoohoo operation was part of the Brooklyn-based Fox's U-Bet syndicate ...
"even along the Sea Beach line?" Do I detect a jab at my train Selkirk? Not very friendly. Fox's U-Bet had delicious chocolate syrup. You can't stand there and tell me there was a relation between Fox's U-Bet and Yoo Hoo? Eeeeeeeee Gaaaaaaads.
As surely as the triplexes were killed off because they were "weird" to the BoT, U-Bet was the secret ingredient in Yoohoo ... sorry to whiz on your parade again, no digs intended ... we're JUST checking for a pulse. :)
No where can you get a Egg Cream in NY these days? Yoo Hoo a Egg Cream in a can or bottle, ewxcept very little seltzer. I am sitting here witha can of Yoo Hoo and a jar of U Bet. Here goes. Yoo Hoo made by the Yoo-Hoo Choc. Bevg. Co of carlstadt NJ ad Fox's U-Bet made by the H Gox and Co. Brooklyn NY 11212, No relationship as I can see Yes we have U Bet in Rural Virginia, had it in Hawaii too
Interesting ... that would mean then that the Fox's U-Bet trucks that delivered YooHoo along with the schpritzers were merely distributors then. I remember the Yoohoo and U-Bet signs all over the trucks so I went and made an "ass out of U and ME" when I ASSUMEd ... whoops.
I'll still take the REAL egg cream though any day before the paint thinner. ;)
Well.
In some places, Dr. Pepper is bottled by Coca-Cola, in others, by Pepsi.
In both cases the bottlers are independent. The Dr. Pepper by Pepsi areas are where one would find Mr. Pibb.
Now I'd like to know where I'd be able to find Coke II!
Ewwwwwww .... "Coke II" was a controlled substance ... it was called "Pepsi" and they GOT CAUGHT! :)
Ewwwwwww .... "Coke II" was a controlled substance ... it was called "Pepsi" and they GOT CAUGHT! :)
Hey. It's a victimless crime.
I don't think Michael Jackson would have agreed. But the Atlanta kids did get it right with "Cherry Coke," the "official beverage" of Privacy Software Corp where I pretend to work. :)
Say no more. Exactly on the mark. One must wonder, though. WHY?????
Say no more ... say no more ... wink wink ... nudge nudge ...
YooHoo's not so bad ... in fact, its taste is not unlike that of chocolate-flavored soy milk, and soy milk is oh-so-trendy these days.
I tasted Yoo Hoo MP and it tasted like a combination of liquid chalk and puke. A real lousy drink. How anyone could enjoy that conconction was beyond me. They tried to make a go of that product here in California but it went over like a turd in the punchbowl.
love Yoo Hoo, it was once owned partially by Yogi Berra, in fact I am sipping one now. and I used to get them in Ralphs Market in the Valley
Wow ... mainlining on roto-rooter ...
Ah yes, Bungalow Bar. If only Matchbox made a model of one it would fit in so nicely on my layout. Basic l951 or so Chevy light truck chassis with a little house [where the bed would otherwise be]for the freezer compartment. Many fond memories of "Bungie" coming up Merriam Ave in Highbridge. I was a regular. The competitors didn't see me often.
How big an outfit was Bungalow Bar?
I was under the impression that it was a small company only in Brooklyn & Queens!
They infested the Bronx too though they apparently didn't do as much business as the guys from Mount Vernon did ... they were franchises with the same deal for the poor phuckers that drove the trucks as the TLC did for cabbies ... and probably just as well. Most of those guys were war vets who actually thought they'd get rich selling "stock" to the likes of us ... in case you never wondered where the attitude came from. We're all damned lucky they didn't just floor the gas pedal and be DONE with us. :)
To stretch this to rail-related Bungalow Bar was out of Richmond Hill NY and in my early days of riding the Jamaica el I could see their big parking lot full of those cute trucks from the el.
Yes they were quite active in the Bronx. My routeman was a Greek guy named John... spent most of my childhood on that route.
Toasted almond, coconut, pistachio, raspberry bars ayone?
Toasted Almond in a heart beat. The Bungalow Bar company was on Jamaica Ave and backed up to the LIRR right of way on the east side. Along with the Good Humor man they were real competitive. I recall a Tooasted Almond was 15 cents or a quarter (2bits). The good ole days.
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Traitor meat! Heh. How could you *LIVE* without the daily "chocolate eclair" from the Good humor guy?!?! :)
I still remember the ice cream pops that always seemed to be the hardest- frozen and always way in the back of the truck. You know the ones - vinilla ice cream coated with shreaded white coconut.
I suppose matchbox makes a good humor truck. If not Dept 56 surely does. I wonder if a Bungalow Bar counterpart is available in O scale too. Looks like I'll have some research to do tonight.
A friend of mine gave me a "Hot Wheels" (Mattel) version of a Good Humor truck. I have no idea where she found it.
My most vivid memory of Good Humor Ice Cream were the little pushcarts that used to come by on the corners in my neighborhood. There was one particularly great popsicle that had multiple layers of chocolate and a solid piece of milk chocolate in the center.
I also remember that all of the Good Humor guys seemed like they were 90 years old.
Matchbox & hotwheels Good Humor trucks are all over E-bay. I'm not sure of the scale. No Bungalow Bar trucks to be found........
I have a Matchbox ice cream truck. Can't remember the name; will have to dig it out and see.
When did Bungalow Bar, Topsy Turvy and Good Humor trucks disappear from the scene? When I left New York in 1954 those trucks made the scene every day, noon and evening. I remember reading an article on Floyd Patterson just before he won the Heavyweight Title in 1956, and there was a picture of him buying kids ice cream off a Bungalow Bar Truck. So they existed for awhile after I left. Does any old timer out there know when they ceased to exist. I certainly didn't see any on my trips to New York in 1974, 1991, or 1999.
I thought I saw some Good Humor Trucks or Wagons in NYC last Summer when I was there. Maybe they were push carts.
There are still Good Humor trucks.
The N also has a few sets of slant R-40s.
Seems to me there is another possible experiment. Those who frequently go through the 6th Av. dash could do it easily. Time R68 vs. R40S from start to stop, ten times for each. Subject results to unpaired t-test. Sure, there will be other factors which influence the results, such as train operator, yellow signals, whatever. My bet, these other factors will overwhelm the test and the results will be non-significant. So if there is a difference in speed between the two models, it would be far smaller than the other factors affecting train progress. The R10s, R40Ss, and my favorite R32s are much noisier than the R68/A, and with less distance between trucks, giving the illusion of going faster. Frankly, I prefer riding the R68/A.
I've done that, and the R-68s and Slant R-40s on the 6th Ave. dash are as close to equivalent as you can get -- the variation is just a few seconds when the signals are clear all the way and the motorman doesn't do any mid-dash braking. (My "record" time is 2 minutes, 2 seconds... on an R-68. A Slanter did 2:04 once.)
As WE ALL KNOW the R-68s feel slower because they're bigger, newer, and have better suspension. Just like a 747 feels smoother in turbulence compared to a DC-9 in equivalent conditions going the same speed.
Do you know about planes? i know a lot
Do I know about planes? Yeah, I guess as much as any well-informed non-pilot does. For eight years I was the consulting meteorologist for a well-known airline that shuttles between New York City and Boston & Washington. I've had some 500 jump seat rides (plane talk for cab rides) on just about every passenger jet type, but predominately 727s and A-320s.
ON TOPIC: A-320s and 727s cruise at about the same speed. They will "ride" very differently thorugh the same air because of their different construction characteristics. Just like R68s and R40s.
Actually the R68's do well in the dash. Since it's a straight stretch with no timers times don't differ between car class.
But if you add timers and grades, the inferior braking on the R68's stand out and it may take a little bit longer.
How about comparing an R68 "D" train between Grand and Dekalb with a Q R40 and see if there's a difference. I have a hunch the Hippo would be slower in that situation. They are heavier and are slower on upgrades, and also need to allow more space between timers going down because of the braking.
The dash is probably the only area where the R-68s perform acceptably. In every other area they are terrible. I rode a slant R-40 yesterday on the "Q" and thet accelerate and brake with ease where the R-68s will seem like they're struggling. Too bad that it appears that the frames on the R-40s are rusting and that will require them to be placed into retirement because they still perform well to this day. If the R-143s perform as well as the R-40s at least they'll have some decent performing new subway cars.
BMTJeff
Have it your way, Jeff. In your world "SEEM' & "LIKE" substitute for fact. You ride a train and to your simple mind it "seems" faster than the other train that "seems" to be struggling. No facts - just your idiotic perceptions. Here's a thought Jeff! Go through life being stupid. It seems to be your destiny anyway. As for me - I surrender - you win. You've convinced me.
You try riding an R-68 and get an idea how its performance is. They give you the feel that they don't acceleratre to speed quickly and because of the weak brakes they often have to apply them sooner than with other cars. As a matter of fact I know of a T/O who has complained quite loudly about the R-68s braking. Ride a different car such as an R-46 they accelerate better and the brakes are more responsive than the R-68s. I'm not entirely stupid.
BMTJeff
Bull!!! I've had numerous T/Os tell me that "R68s can stop on a dime." The R46 is just smoother. Also, "They give you the feel." You said it yourself! It's just a feel. Sorta like, how an old cheap piece of crap car will accelerate rougher than a new Benz. Ever been on a Lincoln Towncar? You can't even feel that thing reached 60 MPH but then you peak over to the dashboard and that's what is says. Feels don't say much. My 92 VW Jetta sucks. Hard ride trying to accelerate and when the transmission shifts, it jerks. My Nissan Quest, well, the difference between them is night and day. My Saturn fits in the middle. You'd know it's getting to 60 because it's noisy as hell.
"I'm not entirely stupid!"
Please, Jeff, let's not wave a red flag in front of the bull. Let's also not assume things that are not yet in evidence. As long as you speak about the performance of any subway car and offer no imperical data but only your feelings and impressions on the subject, you simply cannot make your final statement!!!
Please go ahead and show me numbers that prove that the R-68s accelerate as quickly as the Slant R-40s.
BMTJeff
Nope!!!!!! We did that over a year ago. We also proved that the R-68 is capable of achieving a higher top-end speed than any of the 60 foot cars. Besides I asked first. Post any verifiable data that proves your point. Post anything that doesn't contain "I feel" or "my impression is". Give us verifiable data.
Please give me the information that you have of the R-68 cars performance versus the 60' cars.
BMTJeff
Jeffrey, a former supervisor of mine used to tell me "Never try to teach a pig to play tennis. It's a waste of your time and it annoys the pigs." (sorry Piglet) In the same vane, it would be a waste of time to give you any more data than you already have. You've already dismissed Jeff H's very well thought-out explanation about DC propulsion with one statement, "we need to make a test." Jeff, along with being a former TA Engineer, seems to have the ellusive ability to explain things so that virtually any layman can understand it - yet you didn't get it. Now if Jeff can't reach you, what can I, a gruff, short on patience, overbearing TA manager, have to say that might shed some light on your dearth of intellect? Sorry Jeffery but I'm not a missionary. I only give to those who want to learn.
OK guys, time to call this pissing contest off. As two of my closest amigos on Subtalk it pains me to see two people I consider friends go at each other. Perhaps if you both drop this and go onto other areas of interest you might have a meeting of the minds and this can stop once and for all. I think this is the third or fourth time I have had to butt into arguments with some of my buddies on this board. I'm beginning to think I missed my calling and should have been an Ambassador. Only this time two of my three or four closest allies are throwing darts and that bothers me.
I think that my adversary has quieted down the argument.
BMTJeff
Nah, Fred, I don't think so! See, Fred, most of the time I come here for relaxation and to share information. I happen to be lucky because I have a job that doubles as a hobby and it affords me some insights that others don't usually have. I enjoy sharing those insights. However, we've been down this road before. I have no vested interest in the R-68s. Several years ago I had a fleet of R-46s and next year it may be R-77s - I never know from one day to the next. I do my best with what's given to me and move on when it's time. Such is the nature of the job. The R-68s are only a fleet of cars to me.
On the other hand, I spend a lot of time checking facts before I post anything here. I try to be accurate especially on the technical side. Several people of a technical bent have spent much time here explaining why the arguments about the R-68s being slow are incorrect. Most accepted the well thought-out explanation or at least asked legitimate questions. Unfortunately, we have a small group of subtalkers that continue to dismiss fact in place of their feelings. Your good bubby, BMTjeff, is one. Now I do not care that he wants to go through life being a total moron. That's his priviledge and he seems to do it well. However, when he dares to ask for the information about the R-68s to be posted again and then disregards it - when he still says I think the facts are wrong - he's deliberately acting like an asshole. I don't like assholes, fred.
Please don't try to be a peacemaker. Sometimes it aint that easy as saying "Can't we all just get along?" Sometimes the one acting the part of the asshole needs to change his ways.
OK Dude, I'll butt out of this one. BTW, I have said numerous times that I kind of like the R-68's. They look like an impressive looking car to me, but I was taken back when my railfan buddies bagged on them when we went railfanning on April 1. Of course I'm hardly an authority on speed, torque, payload, or whatever terminology that goes concerning particular cars. I just like riding them and enjoying the trips when I come to New York. I think if we just pick out our favorites and let the rest just lay we'd all be better off. Since you work for the TA I will keep bugging you to do your Sea Beach friend a favor. Please get my train on the Manny B and out of that damn Montague Tunnel.
I trying to egg Train Dude into giving me the performance statistics of the R-68s so that I can drop the subject if is does. Maybe our disagreement with each other can end peacefully.
BMTJeff
I hope so Jeff. You are my friend and we have met face to face and hit it off great. But I consider Dude a friend, too, and though we have never met man to man I'm sure we would hit it off just as big. Maybe you ought to just drop your quest and find the info somewhere else. It isn't worth a rivalry. I can tell you that from my own experience with Stef.
I think that Dude may cooperate with me and give me the numbers on the R-68s so hopefully our disagreement will be over with.
BMTJeff
If you want put an end to this discussion on the R-68s perfromance please give me the numbers and then I'll drop the subject.
BMTJeff
What numbers would you like Jeff? What numbers will satisfy you? It's not like we've never discussed this before.
The numbers would satisfy me so please give them to me.
BMTJeff
Some numbers:
R-68 Mean Distance Between Failures, March 2001: 211,577 miles
R-40 Mean Distance Between Failures, March 2001: 136,935 miles
R-68 Mean Distance Between Failures, February 2001: 172,672 miles
R-40 Mean Distance Between Failures, February 2001: 146,962 miles
R-68 Mean Distance Between Failures, 12-Month Moving Average (April 2000-March 2001): 198,207 miles
R-40 Mean Distance Between Failures, 12-Month Moving Average (April 2000-March 2001): 180,752 miles
David
David, since we were speaking of speed, I don't think MDBF will satisfy jeff. However, if it is MDBF that he's looking for, thank you. I would point out that the MDBF of the D line R-68 fleet in April was over 352,000 and the 12 month MDBF was 224,000 - give or take.
And, fundamentally, the MDBF is a number that the TA is interested in. Like it or lump it, the R68 is up there!
BTW: is there any other rolling stock that beats it?
BTW2: What was the D with the stuck wheel made up of?
John.
The MDBF on the R-68 is definitely better than that of the R-40s. What is the rate of acceleration and braking for the R-68s versus the R-40s?
BMTJeff
Geez...not again.
The initial acceleration rates for the R-40 and R-68 car classes are THE SAME (2.5 miles per hour per second).
The braking rates for the R-40 and R-68 car classes are THE SAME (2.5 miles per hour per second during friction braking, which is normally only used for the final stop, and 3.0 miles per hour per second during electric braking).
Refer to Jeff H.'s excellent post of a few days ago for a description of what happens after the first few seconds of acceleration on 60' vs. 75' cars.
I believe a question was asked a few days ago about the gear ratio on the R-40 class vs. that of the R-68 class:
R-40: 7.235:1
R-68: 117:23, which roughly equals 5.087:1
If any of this information is outdated, someone please let us know.
David
The R-11 gearing was 7.17:1. Otherwise you nailed the gear ratio numbers.
Thanks
As stated in Jeff's excellent explanation the cars are rated identically. Compensation for weight etc is done via current regulation. That is on paper. From 0-15 MPH, both cars are identical at about 2.5 MPH/Sec.Above 15 to about 40 MPH the R-40 has a slight edge due to the differences in gear ratio. However, in the long run, because of that same gear ratio difference, the R-68 will have a higher top-end speed. There are several other variables that vary by contract but essentially this is an acurate portrayal of the facts.
Braking is simpler. Maximum dynamic brake (or full service pneumatic brake) is 3.2 MPH/sec for both car classes. In emergency, both cars brake at 3.0 MPH/Sec (not a mistake). J relay, service variable load and emergency variable load are calibrated for each individual car class so there is no variation.
Now you have the FACTS. These numbers can be documented although I am not going to post charts and curves. Your choice is you can accept the facts as they occur in the real world, ask for clarification if you are still not sure or continue to deny the reality of the situation. I think for at least one year, I've taken this subject about as far as I intend to take it.
I would have to agree with you that the differences in the performance of the R-68s and the R-40s is too small to be meaningful. The R-68s may feel slower because they are bigger and they ride differently than the R-40s. If either car was to run on a staight and level track it appears after reading the facts the R-68s would win in the end. The R-68s are not the big lumbering beasts they have been made out to be.
BMTJeff
I would have to agree with you that the differences in the performance of the R-68s and the R-40s is too small to be meaningful. The R-68s may feel slower because they are bigger and they ride differently than the R-40s. If either car was to run on a straight and level track it appears after reading the facts the R-68s would win in the end. The R-68s are not the big lumbering beasts they have been made out to be.
BMTJeff
Like some others, I've always thought of the R68 and its cousin, the R68A, as dreadfully sluggish. A ride today on the N (R68A) proved otherwise -- we flew from 36th to Pacific (I can't recall ever having such a fast BMT ride on any car type, except maybe the J express from Eastern Parkway to Myrtle).
So, can someone explain why the D is such a dreadfully slow ride in Brooklyn? Apparently the trains can move fast -- but on the D they just don't.
I think you need to look at several other aspects of your comparrison. First of all, look at the roadbed. The brighton line roadbed is mushy. So mushy, in fact, that when we experimented with fiberglass shoebeams a few years ago, the flexing of the trucks due to the soft roadbed caused the beams to snap. Second is the power distribution on the Brighton line. The feeders are spread over a greater area on the Brighton line than on the 4th Ave line. Power drops on the D line are far worse and frequent than on4th Ave. As for the rest, it's likely that you are still going by feel. I find the R-68s feel painfully slow on the rub from Neck Rd, to prospect park. The speedometer says otherwise but the cars feel like they are floating.
Please explain:
The Brighton Line Roadbed is mushy. I would have thought that 50, 60, 70+ years of train running would have compacted the lower layers of ballast tightly into the underlying substrate. Whats the geophysics of the underlying support?
The feeders are spread over a greater area on the Brighton line than on the 4th Ave line. Power drops on the D line are far worse and frequent than on 4th Ave What is the voltage drop per linear foot? I would have thought that this would be minimal, given the huge cross-section of the running and power rails.
What is a shoebeam?
John.
The roadbed is soft compared tot he concrete invert of most of the IND or the Steel structure of the Els. No mystery really.
The shoebeam is the piece of kiln-dried maple that is suspended from the truck gibbs and carries the contact shoes.
The roadbed is soft compared to the concrete invert of most of the IND or the Steel structure of the Els. No mystery really.
The shoebeam is the piece of kiln-dried maple that is suspended from the truck gibbs and carries the contact shoes.
Come on Dave get with it. The Sea Beach moves and grooves baby. It hails and wails. The D plods and trods. It is a pig. Now do you get it?
Actually, the N in question ran express (nonstop) from Stillwell to 59th, and continued express from there (as usual). The express run was awfully slow until 36th (where, by some miracle, we weren't held for a B) but was a thrill from there to Pacific, where I'm sure the train was held for a while (the R across the platform pulled out first) but I didn't wait to find out.
The Sea Beach Express would moveif they fixed up the tracks so that they can use it full time. The Brighton Express can also move if given a chance.
BMTJeff
The Sea Beach Express would moveif they fixed up the tracks so that they can use it full time.
The Sea Beach Express serves NO PURPOSE. The only reason one track was even renovated was flexibility for GOs.
Oh Pig, you're such a pain in the ass. A likeable pain to be sure, but a big one, nevertheless.
Your Sea Beach Line has been hammered again by a Pig. I would agree with you that he as a pain in the ass but we both can like him also in spite of it all.
BMTJeff
When the "D" is running on the local tracks in Brooklyn on the Brighton Line it isn't going to go very fast. If the train is running on the express tracks it will more at a good speed. The R-68s may seems sluggish on the local lines but when they're running express I guess they will feel that they're going fast.
BMTJeff
I think this is one of this A Division vs. B Division things. A Division lines make decent speed even on the local.
Someone posted in another thread that the 1 is faster than the A from 168th to 59th. The 1 makes 13 stops (12 when the 9 is running); the A makes a mere three. It's pretty sad that a typical local on the A Division moves faster than the longest express run on the B Division.
It is entirely possible that the IRT #1 local covers the same distance in less time than the IND "A" train. The few times that I've been on the "A" train it doesn't seem to be very fast on its express run. I'm sure that a few people have become fed up with the "A" and have taken the No.1 train instead.
BMTJeff
Sad to say, the A is no longer the quickest way to get to Harlem.
There's sadness all around my friend. If misery loves company think of what has happened to my Sea Beach. Exiled from the Manny B, a slow local, and unkept stations. What a bummer. I know how you feel, believe me.
It unfortunately is that way. The few times I've rode the "A" train from 59th Street to 125th Street is isn't very fast anymore. The IRT No. 1 local is at least a little faster. I wouldn't be surprised that the tracks aren't in very good condition on the "A" line on that stretch.
BMTJeff
I will still take an A up CPW for sentimental reasons. And heck, I can always pretend I'm on a train of R-10s. Frankly, 37-38 mph isn't all that shabby.
If the Maximum Dynamic Brake deceleration rate is 3.2 MPH/Sec and emergency is 3 MPH/Sec how come the train stops less quickly during emergency? Can you explain? Im not understanding
I'm sure TD will elaborate, but for the moment the problem is that an emergency application is ALL AIR whereas "normal" braking blends/adds dynamic. There's better details on it and I don't want to ruin anyone else's fun in explaining it ...
I'll wait for him then, Im just really curious. If the Emergency setting is less deceleration then full service brake application, then why call it or have an emergency setting in the first place?
I'm not going to guess because I'm a throwback to the R1/9 days. Back in that era, an emergency application would immediately drop out the motors ... no motors, no "generators" to create the drag known as dynamic braking. Cars were simpler in those days and a hell of a lot more fun. But without the dynamic, using only the air, that'd take a SLIGHT bit longer. Bear in mind also that trains don't stop like cars and the block lengths on the system compensate for the lack of braking in emergency mode.
But Train Dude's the best answer on this (as are some of the T/)'s because everything I know has been carved up by the scrappers. :)
I think you gave a pretty good explanation. Basically, in a full service dynamic brake, suplimental air is called for. This results in a slightly higher braking rate than a straight air application as you would have in emergency. Fortunately, as the train slows to around 7 MPH, the dynamic brake fades and the pneumatic application takes over, reducing the final brake rate to 3 MPH/Sec. That rate is much too hard but fortunately most T/Os do reduce their brake application prior to stopping to smooth it out. BTW: Some earlier cars, (WH R-27/30, I think) actually had dynamic brake rates of 4 MPH/Sec. & no suplimental air.
BTW: Some earlier cars, (WH R-27/30, I think) actually had dynamic brake rates of 4 MPH/Sec. & no suplimental air.
I'd recheck your sources regarding that last statement.
The braking effort provided by a generator (motor used for dynamic braking) is proportional to its rotational velocity. As the train nears a stop (0 rpm) this braking effort disappears. This is why dynamic brakes require some sort of supplemental brake to effect a total stop. This supplemental braking system was hydraulic for the PCC "All-Electric" types.
I just checked it out and I mis-spoke although I was doing it from memory. Of course we're talking about pre-GOH here. Anyway, from R-29 through R-40S, the dynamic brake rate was 4 MPH/Sec except for the R-30A which had 3.0 MPH/Sec. + 1 MPH/Sec through the use of suplimental air. Source is "NYCT Passenger Car Data - 1947 - 1976" pg. 28
Hydraulic brakes were never used on PCC cars except for a
few experimentals. On an all-electric car, the dynamic brake
has extended range down to about 3 MPH, and the final friction
brakes then apply, being spring-applied, electrically-released
shaft drum brakes.
Didn't wanna speculate since I don't know the "new" cars ... Say no more, say no more ... wink-wink, nudge nudge ... but "does she go? say no more ... wink-wink, nudge nudge ..." Didn't know the specs for today, but I've suffered from premature throttle release ... and there oughta be a telethon so it never ever happens again. Premature dropping of the handle is a tragic disease, the only cure for which ... is death. :)
Wow, that's a curve ball. I'd never seen that 4.0 MPHPS figure
quoted for (as you later clarified) R29-R40 equipment.
The supplemental air of which you speak was a feature of the
inshot valve on old-school SMEE (A-1 operating units, etc.).
When straight air pressure exceeded, I think, 50 psi, supplemental
air bypassed the inshot valve (beyond the typical 3-5 psi inshot
pressure) and provided increased braking effort beyond the dynamics,
up to 20 psi. Of course, this feature, along with the inshot valve
itself, is long gone on current passenger equipment.
You did say in one of your other posts in another thread perhaps
that the current emergency rate is 3.0 ??? I thought that was
raised to 3.2 after the WB incident?
I've never seen any published reference on how that braking rate
is measured, and that is an issue, as follows: In emergency braking,
the system is effectively open-loop. The brake pacakge puts out
a specific cylinder pressure, compensated for load, and that same
pressure is maintained regardless of speed. If you look at a curve
of friction coefficient versus speed for brake shoes, it is not flat.
Therefore, a single rate number like 3.0 or 3.2 can't describe the
performance through the entire speed range. Either that number
represents a minimum rate or represents is an average of some sort.
I don't know.
The change from iron to cobra shoes changed that curve a lot.
It is difficult to compare emergency stopping performance based
on the spec emergency brake rate. I feel intuitively and from
experience, but without ever having performed experiments to
quantify this, that the emergency stopping performance of, say,
a present-day R32 GOH car at 40 MPH is worse than pre-GOH at
the same speed.
You state correctly that the brake rate is not constant and is dependent on factors of friction, speed, shoe type etc. The figure quoted is the average for the entire braking event.
BTW - we've not yet gotten into the ABEX train. It was gone before my arrival at NYCT. Have you seen any literature on it?
ABEX? Way before my time. Was that the funky train when they
were first testing the cobra shoes where the cars were given
temporary numbers like CB02? I've only seen a few pictures.
A trainset of R-44s was delivered with ABEX hydraulic brakes. They were replaced with the then-R-44-standard WABCO RT-5C pretty early on.
David
Oh! That thing! Thanks for clearing me up.
And how does the R40m/42 cars mdf rate?
The R-40M MDBF is lumped in with the R-40 MDBF.
R-40, March 2001: 136,935
R-42, March 2001: 113,543
David
Well, let a frequent D/Q rider do that, 10 times with each, the R40 and R68. My bet is that again the difference, whichever way, will be statistically non-significant. The quietness, long axle distance, and suspension of the R68 may be giving many an illusion of slow riding.
These facts don't faze me. My perception of things must be correct, not some strange "facts" right from the most reliable source. :-)
I'm surprised the max R68 and R38 speed is 40 -- on the IRT, I routinely see speedometer readings in the mid-40's ("routinely" meaning every time I ride the 2/3 express and watch the speedometer). I can't show you a video, but, if you insist, I'd be glad to get a picture through an R62A cab window. I guess it isn't an illusion that A Division is faster than B Division.
As for speed and acceleration on the R68's, is it possible that, for whatever reason, T/O's are more reluctant to push them to top speed/acceleration than (say) the R38's? Even if the R68 is capable of high speeds, if they rarely actually attain such speeds, what good is it?
Ahhh, geez Dude. The R68 is a fine car. It's reliability is a testament to the people assigned to care for them. But they're sluggish beasts! You've done an excellent job at proving the R68 CAN achieve the speeds other cars do. But in real life, they never seem to.
But in real life, they never seem to.
Thank you
Wait! We haven't yet heard from the guys who think that 12 year old million dollar cars should be sunk! They MUST know more than you. They've seen trains of R32s and R38s pass the slow, lumbering hippos! Who needs your silly "facts" when we have THESE guys! Sorry Train Dude, you may work for the MTA, but even YOU can't compare to the guy who has the brilliant notion of banning all cars and SUVs from NYC AND at the same time sinking a fleet of million dollar (per car) mass transit vehicles at the age of twelve!
but even YOU can't compare to the guy who has the brilliant notion of banning all cars and SUVs from NYC
SUVs should not be eligible for passenger car registration.
SUVs should not be allowed on parkways.
Or on the Brooklyn Bridge or in the left-most lane of an expressway, along with minivans and regular Savana and Econoline-style vans.
Now that every other car is an SUV, I can't see two cars down the line in a traffic jam just because someone with a golf-knicker-covered anus wants to feel like king of the mountain.
>>>...golf-knicker-covered anus...<<<
Uh...You may want to talk to
Mister Rosa about licensing rights.
Peace,
ANDEE
Or on the Brooklyn Bridge or in the left-most lane of an expressway, along with minivans and regular Savana and Econoline-style vans.
Or in the inner CARS ONLY roadway of the New Jersey Turnpike. Speaking of the NJ Turnpike and toll roads in general, they should not be allowed to use the cars only ticket machines, and should be given truck-class tickets with higher toll rates.
Here's an even better idea -- COMMERCIAL REGISTRATION ONLY.
The owner's name, address, and phone number would have to be permanently written on the sides of the vehicle in at least three-inch-high letters. Now you would know who to call when some idiot with a golf-knicker-covered anus cuts you off on the LIE.
The rear seat(s) and moorings has to be permanently removed.
They won't be able to park on residential streets overnight (maybe there will be more parking for us Solara drivers then).
The owner would have to pay a Motor Vehicle Tax and receive a Tax Stamp to display on the windshield of his car.
And they won't be able to park in an "except trucks loading and unloading" or similar area in Manhattan unless they are actively involved in the loading or unloading of the vehicle.
There. That felt good.
SUVs should not be eligible for passenger car registration.
SUVs should not be allowed on parkways.
Aggreed! Those things are dangerous to other non-SUV's arround them, and I refuse to be bullied by them into buying an SUV for myself. Still, in these days of inflated gas prices, I do feel like I'm getting a slight revenge---with my Saturn getting nearly 30 miles to the gallon!
:-) Andrew
Aggreed! Those things are dangerous to other non-SUV's arround them, and I refuse to be bullied by them into buying an SUV for myself. Still, in these days of inflated gas prices, I do feel like I'm getting a slight revenge---with my Saturn getting nearly 30 miles to the gallon!
Average fuel efficiency in cars peaked in 1988, but then went down because the stupid Lack-of-Utility Vehicles (they serve no utilitarian purpose) pulled it down. If we made cars more efficient, such as Hondas and Saturns and encouraged development of hybrids that get 75 MPG, we would save enough oil to obviate the need to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Preserve. We can also save oil through a lot of other methods, none of which involve austerity on our part. Like building more NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS!!! They're save just so long as they don't employ Homer Jay Simpson or Lenny (white) and Carl (black).
My Jeep averages 28-29 mpg during the summer months. This has been the single biggest surprise of all. It was rated for 18 in the city and 23 on the highway, and I have rarely gotten LESS than 23 mpg with it. It's still rolling along at 427,000 miles.
Absolutely, at least until they fix their headlights.
For those who haven't noticed, standard SUV headlights are positioned just like the high beams on a car. By law, I'm required to dim my brights in the presence of other traffic, yet SUVs, like trucks, are permitted to run around blinding everyone else on the road. (It may not be very noticeable here in NYC but try driving in the middle of the night on some rural Interstate in Indiana and you'll see what I mean. I don't particularly enjoy driving blind.)
I agree... since I got here a few years ago, a lot of those people who think they know it all showed up and start making posts about things they have no clue about. The board has been getting pretty hard to swallow with these people.
I don't understand why all these people knock the acceleration of an R68. IMO, the R68/68A has excellent acceleration, and it is the only car class that I operate where the train immediately rolls when the controller is placed into a power position. The other classes have a slight delay.
Now trying to get a 68A to stop is a whole different ball-o-wax altogether.
>>>>>>>>On such and such a date I cas on a C train that passed a D train on CPW so the R-68s must be slower.
BUT I DID!!! The D was stopped behind a red signal, but who cares about trivial things like that.
>>>>>>>>To those, I will not accept those reports as fact unless you have videotape to back up your claim.
Don't get Salaam started.
Well, you're 2 for 3 ...
THIS form a guy named after the unreliable R27-R30.
Remind me again, how were they unreliable?
Wait, who ever said anything about that? Who says they're unreliable? The were fine. They just got scrapped because those smarty pants at Jay Street didn't feel like sticking some Air Conditioning into it.
"Chris R16" was a better name IMO.
I mean c'mon, who can forget the circle railfan window, and the "clack clack" when the doors closed? The R27/30 was a very boring train to ride (but it had great heat, even in the summer).
I miss em. Sitting at Queens Blvd waiting to leave the station as the compressor whirrs up. Nothing beats that.
It's better than my old handle, Chris R16.
Nothing was wrong with the R27/R30. They were just not well cared for.
I wouldn't miss those Hippos at all. They should be banished from the NYCS forever!
You're right the "Hippos" should be banished from the NYCS forever. They should take those cars and sell them to a foreign country who could put them to good use for the next twenty years or so. They don't belong in the NYCS and they although their MDBF has been good they don't run all that well and the brakes stink besides. If they got rid of those R-68s and the R-68As it would be no loss to me. In the meantime I think we'll have to suffer with them for at least the next 12 years or so unless someone takes a torch to all of them and burn out the interiors of the cars.
BMTJeff
they although their MDBF has been good they don't run all that well
Paradox. Make up your mind.
Your post does not suprise me. After seeing the intelligence 'oozing' from some of your other posts, I'd say you were pretty much in form. Please do not wear any rings. The noise of them scraping on the ground while you walk, will keep the neighbors awake. Welcome to my "Dumb-Head" file
Your remarks have me nearly speechless - nearly. If you'll pardon a bit of intollerance, where the hell do you get your information? Where do you get your insight? It seems you've taken every stupid, mis-informed comment ever made on subtalk about the R-68 and R-68A - put them together and managed to put yourself in the class of salaam, "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.", allah.
In fact, your remarks are so stupid, I have nothing more to say about them other than to say you have made my 'Dumb-head' file. That's my file of subtalkers whose posts I no longer read because they are simply a waste of time.
I don't like the stainless imterior, I feel as if I'm inside of a refrigerator. I'd prefer if they ran with the single side cab forward, giving a fan window. Otherwise they are O.K. they ride real nice on welded rail, quite and smooth. A nice solid feel.
avid
They need to have the final field shunt step restored.
So what is the current reason they are terminating the Q at 57th & 6th even during rush??
Have they switch back to the old timetable or just dispatching on the current with adjustments?
I miss my one seat ride home!!!!!
It's due to a general order that's in effect for about 5 weeks.
"Enjoy" that six car shuttle while you can.
Well it's inconvenient for the Station Agent who has to give lunch to the Agents on Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge. There's no thru service, and you either go down to 34th St to change for the shuttle, or walk between 6th and 7th Aves. Even then, the shuttle runs every so often. If someone misses that shuttle for argument sake, it could throw them off the TA work schedule.
-Stef
Here is what the lunch Relief should do: Call the Field Office and advise them you can not get to (name of station(s) and ask for instructions. We are prohibitted from walking, using a taxi, using our own vehicle per instruction. At your first stop, call your supervisor and tell them the problem. Many supervisors will tell you to run early so you can make the connection.
Based on what you have just said, the logical conclusion I can come up with is that if I get that job (I've already gotten this on two occassions), they'll probably send me to 34th St to catch the shuttle.
-Stef
"It's due to a general order that's in effect for about 5 weeks"
What's the G.O. all about ? The newly replaced concrete roadbed isn't cracking up is it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The Q today was operating on the Broadway line between 34th St and Queensbridge.
Interestingly, it was on the soutbound express track and the N was on the local, though it skipped all the usual stations.
John.
I read a posting about NORAC Rules. I heard something about Absolute clear. does LIRR get this at all? I believe its a flashing clear signal.
Does anyone use the 1&9 trains in the skip-stop area? Do you think it is of any use? I recently moved to the Kingsbridge section of the Bronx and 238th Street in my new station, a skip stop #1 station only. It is quite frustrating to see a train go by, not stop and then have to wait at least 5 minutes for the correct train. It is even worse if you just miss the train you need.
I understand from the Website that the reason for this is to increase "average speed" on this sectin of the line. It may increase average speed, but unless you use an "all stop" station, it also increases your travel time.
I have two ideas that I would be interested in your comments on, and I wonder if the MTA has ever, or would ever consider them:
1) Going uptown at 96th Street (at almost all times but especailly evening rush hours), the 2 & 3 expresses discharge a substantial percentage of their riders to make a connection to the uptown #1 (or 9). How about re-routing some #3's from Lenox Terminal to the Broadway line, going either to 137 (like during the Lenox tunnel reconstruction) or further north. This would allow for riders to take an express from lower and/or mid Manhattan to stations on the Broadway line north of 96th Street. It appears that a good amount of the people on the #3 transfer for the #1 anyway at 96th Street. I know the turn around at 137 is doable as it was done for most of the 1998? Lenox tunnel project.
2) Instead of skip stops on the Broadway line, how about making the #9 an express using the middle track from north of 96th Street to 157 Street. This would allow for faster movement of people to northern Manhattan and the Bronx, certainly providing more benefits (increased speed) to riders in Washington Heights/Inwood/Bronx than the skip stops do. What does skipping 3 or 4 stops save, maybe 4 minutes?? While waiting for the correct train costs you at least 5 minutes. As it stands now, the skip stop really does nothing for riders on the north end of the 1/9 (I would be interested in hearing from subtalkers who disagree with me, I would be interested to see what benefits one gets from the skip stop.) An express from 96th to 157th would move people uptown quickly.
Again, these are things that I have thought of for awhile, but now that I'm living in the area (and have access to this wonderful board) I would like to see what others feel about my suggestion, and are my ideas doable? I know there are many subtalkers with a great deal of operating knowledge of the system, and I would be very glad to hear if my ideas make any sense. I realize they have about zero chance of being implemented in any event, but.......
Piggy
For a friend of mine who used to live in Inwood at a 9 stop, that was the last straw that prompted her move to NJ. It was a political football as to which stops were going to be 1 and which were to be 9. Skipping those stops saves about 4 minutes, so it is hardly worth it if you need the opposite train for what comes first.
You mean people felt there was some advatage to living near a #1 vs a #9 stop (which train is prefered?). I know at some point 191 Street was added as an "all stop" as it must have been a #9 (skipped by the #1) stop to begin with. I say this becasue now the #1 only skips 3 stops while the #9 skips 4. I recall originally both skipped 4 stops and I know that 191 was not always an all stop.
But about your friend moving to New Jersey???? That is pretty drastric! I was born and raised there, it took me a while due to family considerations, but the very first chance I had to move out of that third rate excuse for a state, I took!!!!!!!
When my wife was my girlfriend, she lived up near 242. Although the skip-stop only saved 4 minutes or so, it certainly felt like much more.
One item worth I'm curious about -- before the days of skip-stop, many rush hour 1 trains turned around at 137 Street. I've always assumed that the 9 train was essentially an extension of the old 137th runs -- thereby providing additional service to the 1/9 stops and no service decrease to the 1-only and 9-only stops. Can anyone confirm?
CG
I've always assumed that the 9 train was essentially an extension of the old 137th runs -- thereby providing additional service to the 1/9 stops and no service decrease to the 1-only and 9-only stops. Can
anyone confirm?
You forgot one factor.
Alternate trains used to terminate at 137th. The running time to 137th is 36 minutes; tue running time to 242nd is 52 minutes. Suppose they wanted 3/6 minute headways. That's a 72 minute round trip for 137th and 12 trains would be required. Similarly 18 trains would be required for the 242nd St leg for a total of 30 trainsets. (Yes I know I'm ignoring layover time - this is just an illustrative example).
36 trains would be required for skip-stop service with the same headway because both legs require 104 minutes for the round trip.
They did not increase the number of train sets. So, now you have 30 trains with a 104 minute round trip. This gives a headway of 3.5 minutes. So instead of waiting 6 minutes above 137th, a passenger is now waiting 7 minutes.
The other guy disagrees, but I agree: it gives the more used stations better service, the less-used ones the exact service as in the old days of 137 St short-run trains.
This is exactly why I feel skip-stop is evil. It provides benefit only to people who live at full-service stations--those who live at skipped stops (especially skipped stops near the end of the skip area) end up waiting longer for trains that don't run any faster once you've boarded.
Dan
Hold on a moment. There is some advantage to it. If you're headed home from Manhattan, and you use a skip-stop, there is a 50% chance the first train into the station is going to your stop, and you'll get home faster. Otherwise, you'll have to wait for the next train, but you'll get a little of that time back due to the skip-stop. Of course, if you live equidistant from an "A" and a "B" station on a skip-stop, then you can take the first train that comes, and again your trip home will be faster...
As a lifelong denizen of the 1/9 line,
I remember back in the day of the "all-stop" 1
It would feel as tho getting from 225th to 96th
Would take 40 plus minutes... today that same
Trip takes 28 minutes skim.
When the 9 was added.. sure it took some
"getting used to".. and it took a little
PATIENCE.. not just "running off to another
state"ism.. and knowing that if a train scoots
by, there is surely another one "just behind"
it coming to carry YOU home..
Skip-Stop in the northern extremities makes
for a quick entry to Manhattan (even if
de-boarding at 168th)--- a speed-guzzling
A train can get you to 59th in a jiffy..
...as if the 1/9 can't do that itself.
(I personally took an A train from 168th
to 59th Street... thinking I would "prove
the 9 to be slow"... however that very same
9 pulled in to 59th just as I was de-boarding
the A platform... so yes, Virginia.. the
1/9 skip stop CAN hold it's own timewise.)
I think the key factor in the 1/9 arriving at 59th street at the same time as the "A" is the poor service on the "A" line. Many times I have also made the switch at 168 for the A, only to wait up to 15 minutes for the A (and I did not "just miss" an A). The same has happened quite often coming home; the other day I waited at 59th while 3 "D" trains in row come in. I waited almost 20 minutes for the A.
Back to the original point, if you have to wait for the next train due to skip/stop, you will never make up the time spent waiting for the train "right behind" by the few seconds saved by skiping a stop or two (or maybe three).
.......not to mention Skip-Stop makes
for less crowded trains (assuming
everyone knows which train to take)
which means the chance of ::gasp!!::
getting a seat... and also personal
amusement if you're into watching people
who miss their stop-- all for not having
looked to see whether the 1 was a 9
or if the 9 was a 1...
....all r62a's are created alike, folks!!
Getting the right train can also be a challange. One day about 2 weeks ago, I got on what appeared from the side signs on the car that pulled in where I was standing to be a "1". I was not untill it stopped at skipped Dyckman street, did we realize it was really a 9. The cars had a variety of 1 AND 9 signs throughout the train.
If I get stuck with a 9, I take it to 231 and use the chance to drop into Stop and Shop and due some shopping on my way home.
Welcome to Broadway. The 1/9 skip stop is to relieve over crowding which you will learn about one day when for variuos reasons skip stop will be cancelled for the day. I know about the problems with the signs because many crews don't bother to check them before leaving the terminal, my best advice for you is to listen to the announcements. Living by 238 is not bad if the train bypasses your stop the terminal is next and last and you can either walk or catch the next train out.
Good points, living by 238 does give you hope becuase if you miss the train, you can see the next one in the terminal, and if you are running to make the train and you do miss, it feels good to see the train roll throught the station without stopping.
What do you think of my second idea, making the #9 an express:
)
Instead of skip stops on the Broadway line, how about making the #9 an express using the middle track from north of 96th Street to 157 Street. This would allow for faster movement of people to northern Manhattan and the Bronx, certainly providing more benefits (increased speed) to riders in Washington Heights/Inwood/Bronx than the skip stops do. What does skipping 3 or 4 stops save, maybe 4 minutes?? While waiting for the correct train costs you at least 5 minutes. As it stands now, the skip stop really does nothing for riders on the north end of the 1/9 (I would be interested in hearing from subtalkers who disagree with me, I would be interested to see what benefits one gets from the skip stop.) An express from 96th to 157th would move people uptown quickly.
Bill/Piggo
Good points, living by 238 does give you hope becuase if you miss the train, you can see the next one in the terminal, and if you are running to make the train and you do miss, it feels good to see the train roll throught the station without stopping.
What do you think of my second idea, making the #9 an express:
)
Instead of skip stops on the Broadway line, how about making the #9 an express using the middle track from north of 96th Street to 157 Street. This would allow for faster movement of people to northern Manhattan and the Bronx, certainly providing more benefits (increased speed) to riders in Washington Heights/Inwood/Bronx than the skip stops do. What does skipping 3 or 4 stops save, maybe 4 minutes?? While waiting for the correct train costs you at least 5 minutes. As it stands now, the skip stop really does nothing for riders on the north end of the 1/9 (I would be interested in hearing from subtalkers who disagree with me, I would be interested to see what benefits one gets from the skip stop.) An express from 96th to 157th would move people uptown quickly.
Bill/Piggo
Welcome Aboard, Bill!! :)
"I understand from the Website that the reason for this is to increase "average speed" on this sectin of the line. It may increase
average speed, but unless you use an "all stop" station, it also increases your travel time."
No. Assuming it operates as planned, your travel time should be close to usual even if the first train in doesn't stop (because the second train will then make up some of it); if you get on the first train your travel time will be less.
assuming it operates properly, of course, which it doesn't always do.
What makes the 1/9 particularly challenging is that is passes through (IINM) the most densely populated neighborhood in the country -- the Upper West Side -- before continuing to a relatively (relatively!)lightly traveled area. Most lines either discharge their passengers fairly uniformly once outside Midtown or keep most of their passengers until the end, where everyone gets off. (Think of the E and the L.) The 1/9 and the 6 are the only lines I can think of that have heavy discharge peaks in the middle.
The TA has trouble with this. On most lines, when the local is behind schedule, it makes sense to skip a few stops. That doesn't work when the stops it skips happen to be very popular ones. If you've ever seen the mobs at 72nd waiting for a local that actually makes their local stops, you know what I mean.
What this means is that running enough service to satisfy the Upper West Side crowd send too many trains up north.
Based on my observations, the rush hour 1/9 arrives about half as often as the rush hour 2/3. That means that the local tracks can support approximately double the service they currently see. Turning trains is a consideration, but turning at South Ferry is quick and if we can find an intermediate turning point at the north end, that would take care of that problem.
Here's my proposal, a minor modification of one I've made here in the past:
Middays, evenings, nights, weekends, the 1 runs between South Ferry and 242nd, local all the way, as it does today.
Rush hours, the 1 runs between South Ferry and 242nd, express (peak direction) between 96th and 137th and local elsewhere. The 9 runs local between South Ferry and 137th. (Alternatively, by analogy with the 6, the designations could be 1-circle and 1-diamond.) The 1 runs at current 1/9 headways; the 9 fills up the track the rest of the way to capacity.
Nearly everyone gains. Those who live north (i.e., north of 137th) and work south (i.e., south of 96th) get a quicker trip and no skip-stop waits. Those who live middle (i.e., between 96th and 137th) and work south get empty trains. Those who live south and work south get double the current service. Those who live south and work middle (e.g., Columbia students and professors who live south of campus) get double the current service, too. Just about the only people who lose out are those who live north and work middle -- they'll need to transfer at 137th.
Where to get the cars? Don't throw out all the Redbirds just yet. Either keep some around for the 9, or if that won't work (I've heard that the Redbirds aren't compatible with the gap fillers at South Ferry), bring a few R62's or R62A's to the 9 and leave some Redbirds on the 7. (If the only problem is the gap fillers at South Ferry, alternatively, the 9 could simply bypass that one station. With the 1, 4, 5, N, and R all serving Battery Park and the 2, 3, J/Z, and M a short walk away, I don't think that would be much of a problem. Keep in mind that the 1 will assume the current 1/9's headways, so South Ferry wouldn't even see a reduction in service.)
I leave VC as a 1 train at 0833. My leader leaves at 0830 as a 9; her leader at 0826. With the current skip stop service running on-time and in-place, the three of us catch up at 72 St and then dance a Conga line down to South Ferry. You want to stick two more trains in there? As it is, I arrive at the Ferry 3 minutes late because of no where to go. The only thing that separates us northbound is that I usually get stuck meeting the arriving Ferry, and they both make skip stops up, while I'm the first 'normal' train.
Two more trains between us that terminate at 137 St would throw the schedule off even more (think back to the Lenox Invert Project, when the 3 terminated at 137. Remember how often a 1 was held south of 137, sometimes three trains deep? Want that on a daily basis?)
I don't know the exact schedule of trains departing VC.
I do know that if I stand at an express station in the afternoon rush hour -- around 5:30 -- about twice as many expresses pass as locals. Unless there's some reason the local track has a lower capacity than the express track, that would indicate that the local could run approximately twice as often as it does.
Other lines run 30 tph. (The 6 and 7 come to mind.) Why can't the 1/9 do the same?
I wasn't around during the Lenox project so I can't comment on what happened then.
FWIW, the official 1/9 schedule claims that uptown trains in the afternoon rush hour (when the problem is most acute) run at intervals of 4-6 minutes. Even if headways are at the minimum of 4 minutes for an extended period, that's 15 tph. More likely the sustained average headway is 5 minutes, or 12 tph. With two places to turn trains at the north end, 242nd and 137th, and the loop at the south end, track capacity should allow twice the current service, if not more.
Incidentally, the shortest headways -- 3-5 minutes -- are northbound in the morning rush hour. What's up with that?
On your first idea the cogestion at 96st would cost a ton of time, WD's going from 3tk to 4tk and then waiting for the switch to normalize backing up both express and local service.(eg. Franklin ave junction in Brooklyn)
Your second point is not feesable because there is no switch to go from 1tk to "m" tk until south of 145. So would have express service southbound at 145 but not northbound unless you cross over between 137 and 145. Also 137 and 116 are heavy volume stations. So like I stated before skip stop service helps releive over crowding with only the most used stations getting all stop service and the lesser used getting the skip stop.
I worked the #1 line for many years and was there when the Skip-stop express service was implemented. At that time the TA called it a one year experiment, which is why a year later the passengers at 191 St were able to mobilize and get the #1 back. The whole thing came about because when the express bus fares went up, Riverdale residents began demanding a zone express as the other outer borough lines have. The track configuration on the Broadway line is not compatible with zone express service. So the TA, encouraged by the "success" of the J/Z, tried the (smoke and mirrors trick) skip stop service. It never really worked successfully here. To this day, the only department keeping it alive is Operations Planning. Proof of this lies in the fact that for the slightest excuse (I was once instructed to make all stops because of a snow storm) the skip stop will be cancelled and all stops instituted. Part of the problem lies in that the TA had wanted to operate this service north of 96th Street, but the various community boards blocked it and forced the TA to confine it to north of 137th Street. In the spring of 1995, the TA held a G.O. on a number of Sunday mornings, in which they were testing skipping stations at road speed. This was intended to improve the skip stop service. But around the time the testing was completing, the Williamsburg Bridge collision occurred and the "skip-stop at speed" project was quietly discontinued.
Another problem is that the all stop stations should also be crossover stations. The traffic patterns and track and station configurations on the Broadway line simply does not lend itself well to this type of operation
Your suggestion for a zone express between 96 and 137 was tried many years ago. It was done southbound in the AM rush in (I believe)the late '60's. The time involved in switching at 137 and 103 Streets just for the sake of four stations proved to waste more time and effort than it saved.
In its early years the IRT tried the Broadway express, and 7th Ave-Lenox local, concept. It involved crossing a Broadway train to the express, and a Lenox train to the local at 96th Street. The resulting delays were horrendous. It could not be done today with our current headways.
You may or may not be impressed to know that I'm so old, I remember when they ran "Broadway THROUGH Express" on the el in the Bronx ... it encouraged folks at 231 St to go through the NORTHBOUND iron maiden and ride NORTH to 242 to catch them. It ran NONSTOP from 242 peak southbound ONLY, first stop was Dyckman after the center track ended. Then 181, 168, 145 and 137. Stopped at 125 and then skipped to 96th. Other stops were added for a while and then it was suddenly curtailed.
Can't for the life of me remember the years, but it wasn't long after they replaced the drawbridge at Marble Hill ... might have ended 1968 or 1969, I forget ... weren't many of them but they DID do it that way. All was wonderful until Dyckman, then depending on "railroad" we'd end up crawling behind the all-stop locals and toot-toot our way past folks on crowded platforms thinking we were a work train. :)
By the way - if the old rollsigns on the redbirds are STILL THERE, roll one and you should see:
1 BWAY THRU EXP
in there somewhere - that was the run ...
You're right, Selkirk, and thanks for the correction. That is exactly what I was referring to, but failed to mention the uptown section.
We're getting old, bro! Heh.
From the auto heartland:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/134297937_peirce22.html
Yes, even in Seattle there are smart people...
My ordinary 45 minute commute turned into an hour and 20 minute nightmare. It took more than half an hour to get from Essex St. to Marcy Ave. The tower at Essex St. made some rather useless announcements in the station about "problems" on the bridge. Trains were backed up all the way to Broad. And to cap it all off, the train went local after reaching Marcy 30 minutes behind schedule.
It's a VERY old system. Such screwups are inevitable.
E_DOG
The bridge had all new signals installed when they did the track reconstruction 2 years ago.
Something wwnt wrong with the signals. They were all red, and several maintainers were stationed on the bridge, and had to hook down all the stop arms and flag the trains past.
I was just coming from
passing the dreaded signal test (whew!)
You passed it. That good to hear. I hope what I told you at CIY helped you got ready for it. Well good luck in road posting.
Have fun.
Robert
Consider yourself fortunate. They had originally suspended service on the W.B.
Wonder if the problem was road salt from the winter + first real rain in a long time = sufficient leakage current to = "track occupied" ???
That would have been more fortunate for me, because I could've taken the E train home and it would've been a faster ride.
As you know, there is a single track operation in effect during the day. That single track had signal problems. Service was suspended for awhile. The problems continued after the GO was over. In the PM rush, one J train had a BIE on the bridge due to the signal problems.
Hrm... I rode the J over the bridge to work earlier that day and I did notice something strange with the WD signals. I don't remember seeing what happened before and I don't remember if it was normal. But after we passed the first two or three WD signals all of them went out. Not light not flashing just out. Then as we got close to the last one came back on and it was solid white, not flashing. I wonder what caused that and if anyone else has seen it. It really was strange.
Shawn.
An M Train of R-42s was spotted going up CPW about that time. It must have been pretty bad. A friend did a double take when he saw the M Train pulling into 59th Street.
-Stef
How did that M train get there? Was in from Chambers and went through the rarely used connection to the IND, or was it from Brooklyn and went through Chrystie?
Most likely it ran as a B from Brooklyn up to the Bronx during the course of the Rush Hour. Geez! An R-42 invades the Bronx! How often do you get that? It's one of those strange things, but it works.
-Stef
No connection to the IND exists at Chambers St. The M probably ran as a B from Pacific via the bridge. Would've made more sense to run it as a Q to 57th.
I just rode with that motorman this afternoon coming home! I was asking what he thought of a dispatcher, and then he told me the whole story (the dispatcher was nice and let him clear at CIYD after the whole thing instead of coming back to Metro. Chrystie BJ tracks are out of service as the switches are removed, for replacement I hope )
At first they were going to turn him at Whitehall. Then they said over the bridge to 57/6. Then at Bway Laf, they said to 168 VIA 8th AV. (The Q service needed both pockets at 57th, so they didn't want to stick the train there.)
So is R36-9346(rmarerro) going to create a blue diamond M bullet now? :-)
Was it running local or express?
Local as a B.
-Stef
Hey, first train after a long delay goes local all the time on the Brighton. They want to get to all the frustrated pax waiting at the local stops. This happens all the time on the Q for me, I hate it!
Running the J express would've saved no time, but the audible moan of frustration was overpowering in the car I was riding in after the train mercifully made it to Marcy Ave.
They do it in DC in the afternoon, too. In the morning, since everyone has a common destination (downtown), they can skip stops. But in the evening, when people alight just about everywhere, it can't be done.
the last chipmunk voice occured on the R-142A. today at 1:15 pm on the Bom R-142 stock #6421-30 the normal voices were blocked again by radio frequencies that the train picked up from near by towers. annoying walkie talkie sounds to the ears. after that was turned over, in between 110th street and 96th street, passenger safety announcements came on. thats when Alvin, Simon, Theodore struck. When the train pulled into 96th street, the voices left. i guess after their death, their spirit lingers to cause trouble.
Did you know all three Chipmunk voices were done by Ross Bagdasarian aka David Seville? I always wanted to dub one of their shows on tape and slow the tape down.
Here's something really weird: remember their song, Witch Doctor? It's one of the few songs featuring Bagdasarian's normal voice. Anyway, whenever I hear it, I visualize an A train pulling into 42nd St. And whenever I hear or think of the Alvin Show theme song, an F train comes to mind.
"remember their song, Witch Doctor?"
You me and others who probably frequent pizzarias with WCBS-FM playing on the radio do.
Witch Doctor
Released 4/14/58 on Liberty Records 55132
On the charts 18 weeks, held the #1 position for 3 weeks !! WOW
David Seville
Born Ross Bagdasarian on 1/27/1919 in Fresno,CA. died on 1/16/72. To Los Angeles in 1950. Appeared in the films Viva Zapata, Stalag 17 and Rear Window. Wrote "Come On-a my house. Creator of the Chipmunks.
Now you know !
Bill "Newkirk"
What's the official TA word on conductors who do their thing with the cab door open? Almost all seem to leave it open in narrow cabs, but some leave it closed. I almost never see the door open on a transverse cab.
Is the policy any different for operators? Lots seem to like to keep the doors of narrow cabs propped open slightly (often with the famous clamp.)
Are conductors permitted to step out of the cab while the train is between stations? Are they supposed to? Again, something that some, but not all, do.
Obviously, personal preferences will vary, but I'm curious about which behaviors are officially required, suggested, tolerated, discouraged, or prohibited.
Mark
On trains without transverse cabs, the conductors are required to stay outside the cabs in between stations. While the conductor is doing his/her thing in a station, there is no rule as to the cab door being opened or closed.......on a transverse cab train, he/she is required to stay inside the cab. The cab door may be open a bit for ventilation. As for the train operators: this time of year, many like to keep the cab door opened a bit for ventilation, transverse cab or not. As long as it is open a few inches, the train service supervisor won't get upset.
Sometimes I see T/O cab doors (R46) propped completely open (with the yellow thing). Is there a rule against that? It would seem to be, but then the Queens Blvd. local doesn't have many areas where a glare would be a dangerous problem.
Having the cab door completely open with "the yellow thing" is a violation and the T/O can be written up if caught. The T/O is allowed (for ventilation) to keep the cab door open no more than 4 inches.
Yellow thing= shoe slipper. Used to separate the contact shoe from the 3rd rail in the event of a runaway motor(s), smoke condition, or any other incident which would require separation from the 3rd rail.
Someone posted there is no rule about cab doors?
In an older rule book Rule 53, section (d) CAB DOORS states:
"Train Operators must keep the cab doors closed unless the cab is too hot or too cold, in which case they may be kept slightly open, not more than four (4) inches, by use of an authorized "cab door latch" affixed in the vicinity of the cab door lock."
I guess the shoe paddle is not an "authorized cab door latch".
Rule 53(e) Riding In cabs:
" Conductors on trains except R-44, R-46, R-68, or R-68A type cars, and R-62 and R-62A type cars must not ride in the cabs at their operating positions between stations, unless the passenger load condition makes remaining in the cab neccesary for the comfort of passangers."
"NOTE: Conductors on R-44, R-46, R-62, R-62A, R-68 and R-68A trains will remain in the cab, with cab light on so they may be seen by passengers. If a passenger knocks, requesting information, the conductor may leave the cab to answer questions."
Them was the rules in my day, except we had a wooden paddle. And yes, I'd wedge it under the door here and there ... guess I'd be meat.
"Jeffords did it - kicking back, drinking champagne"
What about obstructing the window on the cab door (with newspaper, ad, jacket, etc.)? Is there a rule against that?
This is one of the reasons I don't like the full width cabs. It is likely that the window on the cab door (pseudo-railfan window) would have a piece of newspaper over it.
Does the rule about standing outside a narrow cab between stations take on into account situations where the train is packed to the point that it is difficult or impossible to step out of the cab? Is a conductor within his or her rights to request that the area outside his or her cab be kept clear despite the crowds falling all over each other?
Mark
If a train is very crowded, the C/R is permitted to ride inside the cab with the cab door remaining open (inward). On R62A equipment (#3 line), the C/R may keep the door closed.
If nothing else, the C/R has to push his way through the crowds between a right-side station and a left-side station.
Last week a C/R on the 6 (Redbird) scolded me for opening the windows. When I pointed out that the air conditioning quite obviously wasn't working and that it was cooler outside than in, he told me to go to another car (and give up my seat). Ah, that's what I get for sitting in the car with the C/R -- I guess it's too much to ask that the C/Rs not be unnecessarily rude to their passengers.
Can they move any faster?
Ever since there overhaul they can move muck more quicker.
I seem to recall there are some regulations on how fast they can run is certain parts of the city. I think I read an article in the DVARP newsletter a long time ago calling for loosening those rules so they trains could make better time.
Mark
I won't even try to explain what happened but the file 8108_side.jpg was somehow cross-linked to a photo of a cab. It's been corrected.
Would you say that the R-143 is the first subway car since the R-36 with a drop sash in the cab ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Odd you should mention that. last week when my boss and I were looking it over - he remarked on the same thing. The R-68 and R-68A, of course have that 'drop - sash' that often doesn't drop but it's nice to see someone finally realized simplicity works.
The TA has modified its G train cutback plan with increased service and people movers in response to pressure from the Gov.
Daily News story
Well well well ... what a marvelous idea. :)
A better idea, if engineering and track utilization needs demand that the G terminate at Courhthouse Square (or wherever, I'm not looking at a map) is to put moving sidewalks through that tunnel to quickly move people to the next station.
If they would get their act together, these could be in place prior to the November service change.
Elias
It does sound as though that's what the Guv has in mind. Remember, it's PANDER BEAR season! :)
How about constructing a short connection between the GG and the former Brighton Line which is called the Franklin Shuttle today? Has anybody thought of this, or the possibilities that it opens up?
For one, it would enable a super-express (remember the downsized NX?) to run from Coney Island or even Bensonhurst, north on the Brighton Line, over the current SS and GG lines, and into Midtown Manhattan, without inching over the poor old Manhattan Bridge, which only has two of four tracks functioning anymore, and then inching north on the already congested lines.
But I don't believe that the current MTA bureaucracy are compentent at any task besides downsizing. When there were competing companies, there was imagination, and competition for business. What incentive does a bureaucrat ever have?
In 1975 a subway-bus commute to Brooklyn Heights from my neighbourhood in Sheepshead Bay took 45 minutes, door-to-door. Today it takes well over an hour, partly because the M train has been downsized and no longer runs over the Brighton Line, and partly because bus service has been slashed to the point where the buses are already full during the rush hour, and blow right by the stops without stopping. Naturally, I drive, which takes only a half hour... If the Subway wants me, the trip has to take 45 minutes, not over an hour.
Compared to when the system was still expanding (and not being slowly disbanded like today), the Subway reminds me more of the Hub & Spoke system used by the airlines, than of a major city underground rail system, designed to move people quickly and efficiently, an minimise wasted time.
Well, it appears we have a workable compromise here.
It sounds like they're doing as much as they can until they have more cars. (Of course, this should have been the original plan; but better late than never.)
I'm disappointed that they haven't worked out a local/express on Hillside. That was the seccond most prevalent topic at the MTA hearing.
:-) Andrew
Add one word: "Yet."
And stay hopeful. They haven't said "No."
It's a stupid idea. You inconvenience passengers at 169th, Sutphin, Briarwood and 75th to save two freaking minutes off the time from 179th (and less from Parsons, and practically nothing at all from Union Turnpike).
Send the E local east of 71st and you cut the pissed off parties to 169 and Sutphin, only people within walking distance of those stations would be inconvenienced as all the feeder bus routes make stops where express trains are. Keep in mind also that most people boarding at 179 just had to endure a long bus ride, missing those stops would ease their commute some.
Still, not a good idea just like Pig said.
Why piss ANYONE off? Leave it the way it is.
Sending the E local? That just trades the wrath of F riders for the wrath of E riders. My impression is that both lines are crowded, so why make this switch?
The E would make 2 additional stops while the F would skip 4. Plus, E trains when passing Van Wyck Blvd must go 20 MPH while Fs can go 45.
Anyway I remembered better plan. Send several rush hour Es express to 179 and leave the F as it is. This would give the Hillside Ave-ers access to the 53rd st line.
Blah. The TA has proven itself time and again to be utterly incompetent when it comes to maintaining escalators. They'll be utterly bewildered with people movers, which a are far less common technology. Once the things are installed, which of course will take an eternity, they'll be out of service most of the time.
At least a broken people mover is less inconvenient and hazardous than a broken escalator. Because "broken" is all we'll get!
Not to mention elevators. Maybe they can hire the PA to maintain the people mover.
They could always just install plain old escalators on flat ground if dedicated people-mover equipment is too much of a challenge. I've seen flat escalators at some airports.
Sounds like a fair(er) compromise. People movers? I've never seen those before. Are they those moving sidewalk type of things you see at airports?
At least the G will run to Forest Hills off hours and weekends, a definate gain compared to now.
Yes. You can see them operating at Philly Intl among other places. I would think they're more reliable than escalators (fewer complicated parts).
People movers? I've never seen those before. Are they those moving sidewalk type of things you see at airports?
Yes.
Yes and if the new V/R combo has the same frequency as the current G/R, I think the transfer won't add too much time to riders from the G.
I wonder if trains to/from Forest Hills will operate out of Jamacia. It might make more sense to interchange G and V equipment on those runs.
Hmmm....is this the first time in NYC transit history that a certain line actually runs a shorter route during midday and rush hours than other normal times (not including night shuttles)?
=)
Night Gs used to run to 179st. It was funny, the G would run to 71/Continental 5AM to 9PM, to Queens Plaza 9PM to Midnight, to 179 until 5AM again. Weekends, it still ran to 179 at night but to Queens Plaza during the day.
The weekend 5 and the overnight 6 (or vice-versa) used to run to South Ferry. Daytimes there would be a Bowling Green-SF shuttle.
I can't think of any others...
A few routes -- the 2, 4, and A come to mind -- run local at night. They travel the same distance at night as during the day but it takes longer.
I did not intend it to mean local night service over the same route. I meant more what Henry R-32 replied with the G going to 179 on evening nights.
But thanks for the input
=)
Yeah, I know, but I couldn't think of any other examples, so I gave mine on the off-chance that someone would be remotely interested.
Oh, wait, I think I may have one. Before the B and C switched terminals, the C terminated at 145th middays and the B ran to 168th. But nights and weekends, the B went to Queensbridge. Who served 155th and 163rd? IIRC, the A ran local at some times but the C was extended to 168th at others. But I may be wrong.
Great! I hope they do the same thing for the M/W riders on weekends.
And while they're at it, reopen the 33rd St passage with a people mover. (Would solve the problem of the homeless, and would be easier as the passage is now closed. They can get one of those built in 6 months? Good!)
This brings up some intersting questions, though:
- Where are the cars for the G coming from, Jamaica (which needs 'em for the V) or CI?
- How long will the trains be? 4 cars at all times; 4 cars when terminating at CS and 6 when going to 71st; 6 all times; 8 all times (if they are in fact pulling train off the V to supply the G and vice-versa).
- Will there be brief moments where all three lines share? The Daily News description gives the impression that from 9PM to Midnight all three lines will run to Continental.
The V Line will probably get sliced off at 8:00 in order to break up the trains and change roll signs.
Good, good, good. Somebody at the TA is apparently reading SubTalk -- I think all of those suggestions have come up here over the months.
Next task: to convince the TA to run the M (or J) to Brooklyn full-time except, perhaps, overnight.
Some of those suggestions were presented at the public hearing and by follow-up letter to MTA...
The idea of people movers sounds good, and should be used for more than just the 23rd-Ely and Court Square connection. The other one that really comes to mind is getting between the A,C,E and 7 and the 1,2,3,9,N,R in Times Square...I hate doing that walk. Do the good folks of subtalk have other suggestions where people movers should be used? -Nick
14th Street between 6th (F/L) and 7th (1/2/3/9).
Grand Central between the shuttle and the 4/5/6/7 (or just convert the shuttle itself to a bunch of moving walkways).
The ramps at Fulton could become low-rise escalators (or would that be an ADA problem)?
The passageway outside fare control at WTC parallel to the E, between the A/C/2/3 and the WTC itself.
Amen to the 14st suggestion... Re open the passage to 8th ave as well (I think there was one).
5th ave and 42st B D F Q7.
Queens Blvd North entrance to Van Wyck Blvd. It could turn into an escalator for the portion that dips further underground to cross the Van Wyck (or a diagonal people mover, like at the Metro Mall in Middle Village).
Daily News story
What about the TA's building at 130 Livingston St? Is that remaining for TA use or are they going to eventually vacate it, too ...
--Mark
Once again, mark greene has shown his innate ability not to let facts overshadow political motivation.
Why am I not suprised? The state and city goverment thinks only Manhattan is part of NYC, to them all the other boroughs aren't part of NYC.
I'm tired of seeing the boroughs of the Bronx, Queens, adn Brooklyn's job base and economy neglected. The City and State haven't done enough in redevelopment of many areas like Flushing, downtown Brooklyn, Jackson heights among many other areas.
Today, it's more that goes haywire.
In preparing these two columns, I have dredged up all kinds of stuff to
write about. It has been fun to recall all of the crazy things that have
happened to me, or stories recounted to me about others experiences. So
instead of doing two parts, I'll do more. From time to time, one of the
Haywire columns will appear.
I'm certain that most of you are fully aware of the events on CSX in Ohio
the other day. It is amazing how much can and does go wrong just because.
Sometimes they are human error, sometimes things decide to break or fail at
the precise moment you need them most. We have all been in this situation at
some point in our lives or another. So sit back and read on about more of
the strange things that make a routine day become exciting and adventurous.
I was a cub Trainman working at the MoPac. I had caught a job at 26th
Street Yard in Chicago Heights one afternoon. I was working with Uncle
Milty (of the CWI Roundhouse affair), Dave Keen and Engineer Ben
Forney. We were switching at the south end of the east yard. Milty
instructs me to "ride a brake" on a tank car for this particular move. What
this means is that I have to ride the car and when it gets the distance that
he desired I should take it into the track (in this case ten car lengths),
wrap
a hand brake on the car to stop and secure it and then walk back up.
Simple enough, right?
I noticed that on the side of the car is a large red stencil that says "Do
Not
Hump or Cut Off in Motion." I, as a new recruit, immediately question this
move. Milty's response was "Oh don't worry, that's only for road guys."
Hmm, I didn't recall ever seeing any rules in the book that stated they only
pertained to road crews. But, I'm the new kid and don't desire to be a
problem, so I do as told.
I need to mention that this car is load of liquid ethylene.
Milty gives the car a start, the pin is pulled and away we go. I should also
mention at this point that 26th Street Yard rolled down hill to the north as
well. I roll into the track, count some ten car lengths and start to apply
the
hand brake. As it tightens and the car starts to lose momentum, I wrap the
brake tighter. Then without warning, the hand brake chain snaps. This
means that I now have no brakes on the car and it continues to roll.
Fortunately, I didn't panic. I recalled one of the guys I trained with
telling
me of a similar event and that he ran ahead of the car and started putting
ballast on the rail to slow and eventually stop movement of the car.
Quickly I drop off and go running ahead of the car and started putting
ballast on the rail. I couldn't get the car stopped, but I kept it from
speeding
up. So I started looking for bigger material. I tried a few small tie butts,
but it merely ran them over and kept rolling. I proceeded the entire length
of the track trying to stop this car with no luck. I did not have a radio,
so I
could not even call anybody to tell them of my predicament and seek some
assistance. As I reached the north end, I realized it was going to roll out
on
the lead. So I took off and lined the switches ahead of it so the car would
not run through them. As the car reached the lead, it started to die and
came to a stop. I quickly learned there was a bit of a bowl effect here and
the lead did what I could not and got the car stopped.
The Yardmaster told me later that my quick thinking probably prevented
the car from picking up speed and taking off. Had I not been able to keep
the car rolling slowly, it would likely have come all the way out onto the
lead, across the 26th Street road crossing and over a derail on the lead
north of the crossing.
Several years later while still with the MoPac, I heard this episode go on
over the radio. I was working at Yard Center when I hear the Operator at
Jay Tower call the job working at Ford. He asked if they had kicked some
cars into the adjacent Conrail Yard. I could not hear the Conductor
respond, but I could hear the Tower no problem. He then told the crew that
a westbound EJ&E train spotted two high cubes rolling on their own on
the Conrail main track. Two cars rolling on their own on the main track is
never good.
In order to switch cars into the Conrail yard at Ford, you had to give them
a good boot. Their yard sat a little higher than our yard and the lead
connecting our yard to theirs had a fair amount of ascending grade to it.
Generally, you gave them a pretty good start and the cars rolled about ten
to fifteen car lengths and stopped. Apparently though, tonight they decided
to roll better.
The Engineer on the Ford job called the CHTT Yardmaster and asked him
to call Conrail to see if they could get permission to go out and give
chase.
The response from Conrail was "No." The cars wound up rolling over
three road crossings, two of them very busy, and one that was equipped
only with crossbucks. They collided with nothing and managed to come to
a stop just short of the Conrail/Seaboard interlocking in Dyer, IN. The cars
had rolled some five miles or so on their own. The CHTT Yardmaster
gave chase in his carryall but didn't catch up to them until they were
stopped at Dyer. He did wrap a hand brake on them to make sure they
wouldn't roll anymore and then let Conrail know where they had stopped.
After all this, Conrail did not accept the cars here for interchange. They
sent the Hartsdale local job WCHA-1 out to shove them back to their Ford
yard. They came back out later and pulled them along with the other cars
interchanged to them there. Go figure.
One summer day in 1983, I was working the 0700 job on the CHTT. The
CHTT jobs were really good jobs to work. It was primarily industry work.
All of these guys would tell me not to mention how good these jobs were
when I went back to Yard Center, and of course, I didn't. I liked to work
them too, so I made it sound like shear drudgery and agony to be there. It
kept many with better seniority than me away and allowed me to hold
these jobs from time to time. This is know as a smoke screen. But I
digress.
Anyway, we are transferring some cars from the CHTT to the MoPac at
26th Street. We had this very long load consisting of a fabricated steel
beam mounted on three car consist. It had been measured and cleared to
move. We had it right behind the engine and then several other cars behind
it. As we came across East End Avenue and into 26th Street Yard,
something compelled me to turn around and look at the train coming
around the curve behind me.
As I turned around, I caught the sight of the beam catching the overhead
cantilever crossing signal on the north side of the crossing. I frantically
put
the train into emergency, but could not stop in time. Down came the entire
crossing signal and it landed on the road. Fortunately, there was no traffic
waiting on this side. I immediately called the CHTT Yardmaster and told
him what happened.
Later, a Trainmaster from Yard Center came out to interview us and
needless to say, they attempted to place the blame for this on me. I
explained that we were only going about 4-5 mph at the time this occurred
and it was certainly not rough train handling, but they insisted that I did
something wrong. It had to be me as we all know that railroad officials
never make mistakes. Further investigation showed scratch marks from the
crossing signal on the beam before it got caught and ripped down. Further
measuring of the beam showed inaccurate dimensions which immediately
exonerated me. There was a greater swing out on the load than they had
first thought and anticipated.
This next situation occurred while I was at Metra in 1992. There was a
rash of stuck throttles on the then new, F40PHM-2's. The throttles would
jam and could not be moved in either direction. The Engineer would have
to open the generator field switch or isolate the unit to get it to stop
loading, bring the train to a stop, wiggle the reverser handle and get the
throttle to free up. Fortunately, nobody was injured or killed from one of
these episodes.
Metra Mechanical forces and EMD reps were testing all of the new units
to determine the cause. It was quickly determined to be the reverser handle
itself that was the culprit. The reverser handles included with these units
were a metallic model. They were made of a pot metal and coated in brass.
They looked expensive and were very heavy. Herein was the problem; they
were heavy. The F40PHM-2's had desktop control stands. The weight of
the reverser handles pushed down enough that it was causing the throttle to
jam. By replacing the metallic reverser handles with lightweight plastic
reversers, the problem was instantly cured .
The last chapter for this edition is bizarre and just plain nuts. While it
did
not happen to me, it did happen to an Engineer I used to fire for. He
recounted this story to me over dinner one evening while we were working
the Heights Run Local. I might add this same guy actually fixed me up
with one of his daughters too! Now who in their right mind would fix their
daughter up with a railroader? Especially one that he works with.
The story goes that they are working a night job at 26th Street. Early
Sunday morning they attempt to make a delivery to the EJ&E's West Yard.
To accomplish this maneuver, you would pull the cut around the south
wye at Jay Tower onto either the siding or the eastbound main. Then, you
would shove west about half a mile to the West Yard and deliver the train.
Not an insurmountable task right?
This particular morning around 0600, they set out to accomplish this task.
As they crossed East End Avenue, the engine dies. They cannot get it to
restart. They notify the CHTT Yardmaster of their plight and determine the
course of action to be taken. In the meantime, a Chicago Heights
Policeman shows up and starts to give the Engineer and Fireman a very
difficult time about having East End Avenue blocked for an excessive
period of time. They attempt to explain their plight to the officer, but to
no
avail. He has attitude and is demanding them to move now. He doesn't
want to hear of failed motive power. When they refused (in his mind) to
move the train and clear up the crossing, he placed them both under arrest.
He read them their rights and loads them up into his cruiser and hauled
them off to the crow bar motel.
After they are processed and booked, the Engineer explains the entire
situation to the officer handling this procedure. He goes on to inform the
officer that with both Engineer and Fireman incarcerated, there is now
nobody to move the train. Another Engineer must now be called out, has
two hours to appear, and then must be transported to the CHTT
Roundhouse to get a running unit, take it around to tie onto the tail end of
the stalled cut and pull it back. There were no other jobs working on the
CHTT or at 26th Street that night.
After several hours of detention, a company lawyer appears to spring these
scourges of society. The Engineer told me that this guy appeared to have
been rustled from bed after quite a night on the town as he looked pretty
disheveled. After being sprung, they were transported back to 26th Street
to tie up. Being as they had not been to dinner, they claimed it on their
timeslip for the twenty minutes additional pay we got in those days. One
normally claimed "Meal period made in transit" under the remarks column
and placed the twenty minutes in box on the timeslip for this purpose. The
Engineer said they reworded it and showed "Meal period made in jail."
And he said it was paid without prejudice.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c2001
I believe that i have a service plan that can be used for Queens Blvd that will allow the G Line to operate with the E,F,R, and V Lines during rush hours.
From what I understand Queens Blvd Local tracks can handle 29 trains per hour here's what I will do:
E Line- No changes from current service
F Line- Will operate daily except midnight hours between 179th Street and Coney Island via 53rd Street. During rush hours alternate F's will
terminate at Kings Highway in Brooklyn allowing express service between Church Ave and Kings Highway in the peak direction.Weekdays the F's will operate via express track between 179th Street and Continental Ave. Midnight hours the F will operate from Coney Island to 21st Street/Queensbridge via 63rd Street.
G Line-Will be extended from Smith/9th Street to Church Ave at all times. Alternate G trains will operate to Continental Ave rush hours only(3 trains per hour) while the other G train will terminate at Queens Plaza. If you run 4 car trains you still can turn a train between Queens Plaza and 36th St in the 5th track. Evenings,nightds and weekends all G trains will terminate at Queens Plaza as was done prior to the construction of the 63rd Street connection.
R Line-Will operate 24 hours a day to Continental Ave and will be extended to 179th Street weekdays and midnight hours.(12 trains per hour rush hours)
V Line-Will operate daily between Continental Ave and 2nd Ave via 63rd Street except for midnight hours(9 trains per hour rush hours).
Why this plan i feel can work.
1-F Line passengers will not be forced to switch to the V Line to reach 53rd Street stations which the new plan will require.
2-G Line passengers will have some service to Continental Ave which is better than none as the current plans have during rush hours. Instead of walking or riding a people mover which is a good idea by the way a transfer at Queens Plaza will be easier and you do not have to run a train all the way to Continental Ave off hours (It will save you money)
3-By running the R Line all night via 60th Street and Queens Blvd will allow access to the Lexington Ave Line and the Brooklyn Broadway Express Lines which due to the Manhattan Bridge construction will not be running via 6th Ave. To run the F Line all night via 63rd Street will force people to make additional changes and it will skip the Queens Plaza station which is a major bus transfer point. I believe that most Queens Blvd passengers perfer access via 53rd and 60th Streets than 63rd Street.
4-It will reduce track changes from the proposed 9 times per hour to 3 times per hour each way peak hours at Queens Plaza.
If you have any comments please let me know at Barry.L @yep.com
Thank You
The problem with V going through 63 Street is that no one would be taking it, which defeats the purpose of adding another Queens-Manhattan train anyway.
This is a idea on where certain cars should go on what line upon the bridge swap and arrival of new cars-is this a good idea?
A:R44 and R160
B/D:R68A
C:R38
E:R38 and R46
F/G/V:R46 and R38
J/L/Z:R160
M:R42
N:R40,R68
Q:R40M(Express)
Q:R68(Local)
R:R46
V:R68
Sending the bulk of the R68A to Concourse should get newer windows on them and sening the bulk of R68 to Coney Island for service on the Q,N and V lines. occasionally putting them on the Q express if needed?
any opinions?
Where is the R143?
And the R-32?
Of course the R160 techincally does not exist yet and probably will not until well after the bridge swap, whenever that happens.
Shawn.
the R 160/160a will replace the R44 cars on the A.Also , the L willalready have the R 143 cars so I doute if you will see many over there[ if any i should say].From what I'vew read at the T.A. web site,most of the new order cars will based at E.N.Y Yard [65 4car sets and a few five car sets i suppose].
I believe the R38 is the one getting retired, and the R32 will get the rehab. I can't believe the R44s will be replaced already...these cars won't see 30 years in service, while the R-32s could see up to 50! Granted I like the R32s, but since the R44 rehab in the early 90s, didn't that take away the problems that they had when they first arrived? Both sets of cars should stay awhile longer. -Nick
The R44's are almost 30 years old right now. Yet they won't be replaced till after the R38-40-42's are replaced. So the R44's will be well over 30 years old when they are recycled into soda cans.
A-R160(pride of the system)
B/W/D/G-R68/a
C-R32
N-R68/a/R160
Brighton Express-R32
Eastern Division-R32/143
Jamaica Yard (no G)-R46/160
SIR-M8(had to throw that in)
So after the IND connector goes in, "G" trains will be Coney Island's responsibility, even though it will still go to Continental off peak and weekends???
In one of my postings in the discussion about Cypress Hills J Line stations, I mention (in support of the necessity of using primary sources) that my own co-authored SIRT book contained three errors of fact.
It occurred to me that SubTalkers who are interested in the SIRT (and in my guilt trip) might like to know what the errors were. All three have to do, not with the SIRT itself, but with Mayor Hylan's hatred of the BMT. Following is a new accurate paragraph I wrote for a planned updating of the SIRT book, and a note explaining what the error was. Hylanologists may especially enjoy this.
From the as-yet unpublished new edition:
Hylan had been a locomotive engineer on the Brooklyn Elevated road for nine years and maintained his membership in Local 419 of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. Fighting the traction interests was a major theme of his administration (1918-1925). Immediately after the Malbone Street accident, he exercised his right as Mayor to sit as magistrate in the criminal investigation of the case. Travis H. Whitney, a member of the New York Public Service Commission and a notable critic of Hylans transit policies, alleged that Hylan had been dismissed himself for operating a train at excessive speed around a curve, an important factor in the accident the Mayor was investigating.9
And then note 9 says:
This paragraph in the 1965 SIRT book read as follows: Hylan was, for two years, a BRT motorman until his carelessness almost killed a towerman in 1907. Fired by the BRT, he bore a deep hatred, carrying his grudge with him upon his election as mayor in 1918. His open gloating over the Brighton Line disaster found his penchant for doing his duty at a mark he was never to reach again.
The above, the authors learned later, contained at least three major misstatements of fact: Hylan probably worked for a predecessor or subsidiary company of the BRT for nine (not two) years, indicating an important career choice. Also, the date of the alleged incident, if it involved a steam locomotive, was surely far earlier than 1907, probably at the end of the prior century, as BRT lines were rapidly electrified at the turn of the century.
Nevertheless, the original erroneous paragraph was picked up in at least two plagiarizations of the 1965 book and (who knows how many) researched articles. Thus, we can see how an inaccuracy in a published work acquires a life of its own. Our apologies to all (except the plagiarizers).
For those who are interested, the event (Hylan's carelessness and firing) did occur, even if the details are in dispute. Hylan himself acknowledged the occurence, though he made light of it.
And as a final note, I cannot be sure that there are no other errors and will review the entire text to enhance accuracy, but we (my brotehr and I) had access to a lot of source material and to a lot of people with first hand knowledge, so I have a lot of confidence that any updating, as well as the original, is a creditable history.
For those who are interested, the event (Hylan's carelessness and firing) did occur, even if the details are in dispute. Hylan himself acknowledged the occurence, though he made light of it.
Wasn't Hylan actually happy that he got fired, at least in retrospect, as it motivated him to attend law school and eventually enter politics?
Wasn't Hylan actually happy that he got fired, at least in retrospect, as it motivated him to attend law school and eventually enter politics?
No, Hylan was already well on his way to becoming an attorney when he was fired. In fact he received his Bachelor of Laws degree a month after he was fired.
Viewed from one perspective Hylan was a very admirable man, someone from humble beginnings who pulled himself up through hard work and study, getting his law degree at the same time that he worked full time. Very Horatio Alger.
And he wasn't happy about being fired. He still needed the income and he felt that his exemplary service with the company was ignored in his summary dismissal. Losing the income hurt him, but being fired embittered him.
It's quite possible that, even without his unfortunate experience on the Brooklyn Elevated, Hylan would have ended up as, in Robert Moses' words, "a decent hack." OTOH, had he had a clearer view of the City beyond his hatred of the BRT, he might have resisted falling in so easily with such as Hearst and been remembered well by history.
Thanks, Paul for the updating.
I'm looking forward to the reprint.
BMTman
I'm just now reading your 1965 book, haing obtained it recently at the East Penn Traction Club meet. Do you have a rough timetable for the revision's eventual release? I'm enjoying the original immensely.
--mark
Last year ;-)
I hope to have it out within a year. I already missed the railroad's 140th anniversary in 2000. But before then I'll probably post some interesting material om rapidtransit.net
Well, that certainly is a rough timetable :)
--Mark
Well, that certainly is a rough timetable :)
OK, how about:
Coincident with the opening of the Second Avenue Subway.
Maybe even before. ;-)
Thanks Paul. Your historical work is always very solid.
In what year was Hylan dismissed, then? If it was indeed
shortly before he got his law degree, that date should be
a matter of public record.
He received his LLB degree in 1897, so that is almost certainly the year of his dismissal.
Makes sense, and that would have put his career entirely in
the steam days.
I was walking to my friends house yesterday from the 231st station on the broadway line around 9:10PM. When I got to Bailey Av & 230ST, a truck drove by with something large on the back. It was about the size and shape of a subway car and I thought to myself that I might have just say a R142A go by :) Anyway, does anyone know if in fact that was a R142A that went by?
Shawn
The 142A's are usually delivered by truck but they usually turn off Broadway at Van Cortlandt Park South and don't travel down as far as 230th.
Hamptons Reserve Service is back on the LIRR.
In addtion to the Peak Rail Fare of $15.25 (zone 1 to 14) of Eastbond $17.50 (westbound $12.25)you get Hamptons Reserve cars have a bar, as well as special luggage shelves and cupholders. Reservations guarantee your seat, and our courteous attendants serve beverages and snacks at your seat.
There is now a seating chart online at: http://www.lirr.org/lirr/hamptonsreserve/hrseatingchart.pdf
Seasonal reservations are taken for a minimum of six trips. Advanced payment for tickets is required. Online reservations are accepted beginning each Wednesday for the following week. Weekly reservations are accepted beginning each Monday morning, through Friday at noon. Representatives are available Monday through Thursday, 9 AM to Noon and 1 PM to 4 PM, and Fridays 9 AM to Noon
Reservations for The Cannonball Friday service normally sell out early in the week. If seats become available through cancellations, they will be assigned on a first come, first served basis on the train at Hunterspoint Avenue and Jamaica.
There is an online cancelation form as well.
Our Hamptons Reserve service cars will be positioned at the west end (rear) of the train when travelling eastbound. When boarding connecting trains, please use cars at the west end of the train (rear) for easier transfer at Jamaica Station. At Penn Station, we suggest that you use the Central Corridor or West End Concourse at 8th Avenue to more easily reach the rear of the train. Your Hamptons Reserve Car Number appears on your Hamptons Reserve ticket and will be provided at time of reservation. Cars are positioned lowest to highest, in numerical order east to west. Seats are numbered within each car.
Hamptons Reserve service is available on The Cannonball, our premier express train to the Hamptons/Montauk on both Thursday and Friday afternoons during the summer. The train departs Hunterspoint Avenue at 4:06 P.M. The connecting trains depart Penn Station at 3:58 P.M. and Flatbush at 3:56 P.M. The Cannonball arrives at Jamaica at 4:22 P.M. and departs at 4:25 P.M.
On Sundays, except for the Memorial day and Labor day weekends when the service will be available on Monday, the Hamptons Reserve service will be available on train 8705, which departs Montauk at 3:30 P.M. making all east end stops through Westhampton.
Will the Transit Authoroty keep a ten car set as part of the museum fleet?
Is there any talk of trolley museum interest?
If I had my way, Branford would acquire an R-33 World's Fair Car. Unfortunately, I can't speak for the Trustees, and as of this point, The Shore Line Trolley Museum wasn't picking up any other cars from New York.
The Transit Museum could save a few, which is a possibility.
The only definite thing right now is that a Redbird Pair is slated to go west to Illinois at their Railway Museum.
-Stef
Stef, it'd be interesting to see if the Railroad Museum of Long Island presents some kind of interest in the Redbirds since -- geographically -- they served Long Island (not to mention the fact that many a Long Islander probably road them out to Mets games at some point or another).
BTW, the RRMofLI has BEDT-#16 a BROOKLYN steam engine, so having a few Redbirds wouldn't be TOO out of place there (and would keep #16 company).
Just a thought.
Doug
Interesting. Only problem is the Redbirds wouldn't be able to move under their own power. I suppose they could be used as passenger coaches though.
BEDT 16 looks out of place? I think the locomotive is just right, considering it may have been used to interchange freight with the LIRR/New Haven at one point or another. Geez, I wonder if it can be restored to operating condition?
-Stef
The Transit Museum already has a number of "Arch Roof" type cars, including: R-15; R-16; R-17; R-30; R-33 (In World's Fair light blue & white). They also plan to add Subway Series #9327. The R-16 & R-30 did come from BMT & IND divisions (wider cars), but they are still the arch roof design, just not painted red.
As Steff & BMTman have expressed, it would be nice for one of the other museums to acquire at least a R-33S (last of the non-AC "singles"), but it may not happen, i.e. Branford has a R-17, Kingston has a R-16 & Kennebunkport tends to concentrate on Boston subway cars (exceptions for them are a Gibbs Hi-V & a LIRR MP-54).
The main problem that museums are going to have to deal with in this area (besides money) is the fact that NYC subway cars are now married pairs or married sets. The two important facts here are the space to store a multiple car set (they don't have controlers/operator windows in both ends of the individual cars, AND many components required to operate a car are not all in every car). A museum may be able to get around this by making up a pair that includes a R-32, R-38, R-40, R-42, or R-44, R-46, R-68 combination. Some of these may go togather some may not, because of various reasons not the least is the different manufactures, e.g. St. Louis Car Co., Pullman, Budd, etc.
Some may be able to be retor fitted, e.g. the R-68 Hippo has a operator window in each end, but if you operate it as a single it's NOT prototype anymore (not to mention a trolley pole on top).
This all said, these museums need to keep thinking about what trolleys & subway cars out there they should consider acquiring because of their unique place in the history of mass transit. A good example is Sea Shore's interest in getting a Boeing LRV.
Mr t__:^)
Well, at least they can get themselves an R-62A single sometime around 2030...
Unfortunately, the redbirds are unavailable for purchase, due to legislation passed by New York State. As a result of the Asbestos content, they cannot sell the cars to anyone in the U.S.
However, the cars may be around for years. As of this week, Delaware has agreed to accept 400 cars. They may accept more next year. So, the TA is looking for space to store the remaining cars once they are out of service. Two of the scenarios I have heard about are:
1)Reactivating the lower level track at 42nd street. 44 redbirds will fit in that space.
2)Reconnecting the track on the Sea Beach line for dead storage.
I am sure other areas will be looked at as well.
Yeah I live in Delaware and i've been hearing about that on the news down there. Do you know what they're going with them???? they're going to PUT THEM UNDERWATER AT THE PORT OF WILMINGTON AND BUILD AN ARTIFICIAL REEF!!!!!
Wouldn't a reef in a port be a navigation hazard?
Your telling me that these cars are so unhealthy to sell that they need to be dumped in the ocean?
I kid you not. They;re gonna make an artificial reef with them down here. Ther was some specualtion as to how safe it would be because of the asbestos and apparently they said it was ok!!! Go figure I guess they figure 3/4 of the state already has some form of cancer since every chemical company is down here, what's a little more.
I guess you choose to ignore facts and instead go with pseudoscience pushed by freaks like the Sierra Club.
Do you think we should ban Hydrogen Monoxide? I mean it's the primary component of acid rain, is found in brain tumors and can kill if inhaled.
It also causes billions of dollars in damage for coastal properties.
nooooooooooo!!!that wasn't my point at all!!!!!! just a joke!!!! I hate to see it happen at all I used to ride those trains too and i'm not worried. I'd think it'd be wa waste to have them sitting underwater rusting,
Why would it be a waste? They can't keep them all and this way they don't have to abate asbestos. It also helps underwater life by providing an artificial reef that grows on the walls.
Oh so there going to dump redbirds in the water. The Redbirds are gonna get soaked but they shoud dump the redbirds where the titanic sunk.
SAVE THEM FOR SOME FUTURE MUSEUM RUNS sorry for the caps
in small caps save at least the best two 10 car length ( 11) for the # 7 run them as museum trains especially for the 2004
celebration !!!
I'd like to see them put in a spot where's it's constantly moist, a bad, vandal filled, neighborhood so they can rust and rot away and be used for tagging and other vandal related activities. With this scenario, they could die a slow, beautiful death.
Or, I'd pay a premium to see these things crushed....slowly....every cringe and squeak echoing into the New Jersey sky. The windows shattering into a billion little fragments. The sweet music of the baler or shredder decimating the metal bit by bit, roaches scurrying for freedom, only to be crushed creating a stench filled pool near the car. Then, after they were crushed, they'd be displayed for all to see before being mealted down and turned into Coca-Cola cans.
Drink up Salaam.
I spoke to a motorman, Robert DiStefano, and i asked him what cars are going to be in the 7 when ctbc is installed. he said that the r62's will be in the 7 for 5 to 10 years. after that, the r142's will be coming.
sorry my mistake- its CBTC
Makes sense?
Arti
The exhibition, featuring WMATA, will open December 15, 2001 and will close in August 2002 according to the museum's website.
Where is the National Building Museum?
Please post the URL for the web site.
Thanks,
John.
It is in Washington, DC. You can get a link from the anniversary section of www.wmata.com.
Where is the National Building Museum?
Please post the URL for the web site.
401 F Street NW
http://www.nbm.org/
Right in front of the Judiciary Square Metro Station on the Red Line.
"Where is the National Building Museum?"
In Washington DC, right across the street from the Judiciary Square Metro station on the Red Line.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
May 26, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk!
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic) will be punted.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
Subtalk live always works.
Subtalk live always works.
Subtalk live always works.
Subtalk live always works.
I would like to compliment Transitalk, at geocities.com, for a very nice gallery of photos.
The yard shots are really nice, esp. because they reveal views of the undercarriages you don't get in station shots. They will come in handy for modeling.
Out of curiosity, one of the subway cars shown being lifted off a flatbed truck on delivery appears to be missing undercarriage. Is that just because I'm not seeing the picture clearly?
Hey, Glad you liked the TT photos, return frequently as we update weekly or bi-weekly.
If you direct me to which delivery picture, I will be able to tell you what the deal is!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Deal?
I noticed while riding an R-142 today after work two things I found of interest. 1. Why is there a single little yellow light at the top of where (any) two doors meet? They dont light up when the doors open or close. So whats up with that? 2. Has anyone taken a REAL good look at those windows and have noticed a layer of Plastic (Or some other material) on top of the glass, is that stuff supposed to peel off to try and stop those "fabulous" subway artists from putting their "tags" on our beloved subway cars? lol.
The yellow light is an ADA requirement. It is susposed to flash as the doors close and did when I took R142A 7231 on May 8th.
That's an odd ADA requirement. Is the blinking light required on elevator doors also?
Why is it odd? The chime / announcement is for the blind and the light is for the deaf. Makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure why it isn't on elevators, but then they don't have the chime / announcement requirement, either.
Strange, though, that the chime should sound when the doors start to move instead of 2-3 seconds before. The way it is set up now doesn't actually serve much purpose.
Of course, since I do utilize Grand Street and Eastern Chinatown from time to time whenever I go to New York, the plan to effectively reduce Grand Street service to a shuttle is hard to stomach.
That said, I wonder how difficult is it to turn the V at Grand Street instead of 2 Avenue. Can Grand Street be the terminal of the V with its projected capacity of around 12 TPH in rush hour?
Also I think the M should have expanded service to Manhattan and Brooklyn to pick up the loss of the B/D/Q.
M train proposal:
Metropolitan Ave to 95 Street rush hours
Metropolitan Ave to 9 Avenue all other times
This forces the role of the shuttle to the J, which will operate nights only from Broadway/Myrtle to Jamaica Center.
Nick
Why the J? The M should stay the way it is and the J should be extended to 36 st or 95 to replace the R. The R could be sent down Brighton.
The J has traditionally never went past Broad Street, and since there will be an expected outflow of people headed towards the Bowery Station, the M cannot retain shuttle-only service on weekends.
But, the new rush hour plan reflects to what the special rush hour banker's "R" service did when it was running between Chambers St - 95 St. Returning from 95 St, those "R" trains usually went to Metropolitan Avenue.
This is to keep with traditional patterns.
Nick
Metropolitan ave ridership (compared to Jamaica Ave) does not warrant night or weekend service. Better to extend the J to 9th ave on weekends (though I still object to opening Broad on weekends). Nights people can just take the train from Bowery to Canal and transfer.
Traditionally, the J has never been past Broad Street, and this plan reflects the tradition.
The J also ended service at Myrtle/Broadway during the Willy B reconstruction, and I wonder how that worked out.
But in short the M should **not** be reduced as a shuttle on weekends. If the shuttle on the M should be retained, make that as nights only shuttle, and extend the J to 9 Avenue from Friday night to Sunday evening.
Nick
>Metropolitan ave ridership (compared to Jamaica Ave) does not warrant night or weekend service.
That's probably because it is just a shuttle and you have to change two more times to get anywhere. We're really discouraged from using transit outside of rush hours over here, so everybody uses cars. I could have walked faster than the bus from Wyckoff to Cypress Hills St. tonight. Peple think this area is so underpopulated because the houses are so small, but there are alot of them packed together.
If they give it a chance and really promote it, maybe people will be lured away from their cars (and car service) and use the train. Maybe some who avoid going in that direction or travelling altogether (there are many whose decisions are affected by that) will take the opportunity as well for a one seat ride to the other side of Brooklyn, and Essex, Canal, Chambers and Fulton for midtown services.
People further out on Jamaica do have alternatives for some of those services. (A/C, E)
And your right.Service along the M line during the evening hours sucks ! and to make it worst,its done that way on purpose.Look,Ive always had strong feelings for the Eastern Division lines not only because i once use to ride everyday,but cause i always felt the TA didnt give a crap about the lines or the riders over there. If they did,why would they order railcars that could run everywhere else but the J/M/L and Z?WHY would they bring about service cut after cut? Why wouldnt the fix those curves that barr the 75 ft cars?extend the platforms?Order new cars[60-67ft]? Operate peak direction express service to and from Jamaica Center like they do for the Flushing/Pelham/8th ave FULTON and so on,and most of all,direct service to the FULTON street line and Canarsie line at EAST NEW YORK? The way the lines are operated now[as I ve said in another post],the riders who use these lines are treated like crap!
I am getting a little off topic here, but there are at least two categories of riders which are being left out by the TA's master plan:
#1 Riders who go to Eastern Chinatown (closing of Grand Street)
#2 Anyone utilizes the Eastern Division lines (J/Z, L, M)
Any additions would be welcome.
Nick
GRAND STREET IS NOT CLOSING
I'm sure you know this, but we just finished fighting off all the unfounded rumors that it was, please be more careful with your words.
Anyway, all the people need for Grand st is to take the Q or W to Canal and take the J/M/Z one stop to Bowery. The transfer is easy (if they reopen the passage, I suspect they might).
Havent you figured by now the TA cares NOTHING about the Eastern Division lines?
This idea can work sooo much better-have suggested it before and keep getting shot down:
Q-wkdys express 57th St-7th Av to Brighton Beach
Q-Nights and weekends 57th St-7th Av to Coney Island
M-Metropolitan avenue to Coney Island Weekdays
M-Metropolitan Avenue to Canal Street Weekends
Direct service via Chinatown Grand St area
yes,no?
I think it should be set up to require less transfers as this does not address those that need the B to the West End/Sunset Park areas, so M should run Metropolitan to 9 Avenue (or maybe Bay Parkway[??]) to address the B riders (who become W riders).
Nick
I posted about this. I suggested running the W on weekends to Essex Street since the cars will be available.
[Weekend W to Essex]
That would mean a yellow W (with 600-foot trains) for weekdays and a brown W (with 480-foot trains) for weekends. It would be kind of confusing to have the W go to two different places - and use two completely different rights-of-way in Manhattan - by day of week.
As long as the W will be a silly shuttle from Stillwell to Pacific on most weekends anyway, how about just SWAPPING the M with the W? The M would run full time from Metropolitan to Stillwell, and the W would run weekdays only from Bay Parkway to Astoria. While the W still wouldn't be the B that West End riders have now, at least those riders would be able to get directly into Manhattan. Plus, riders in Sunset Park (Brooklyn's Chinatown) would always have direct service to Bowery (for Manhattan's Chinatown).
Yeah that sounds like a great idea. Too bad the TA is too inept to see that. Also explains why Brooklyn's Chinatown has grown faster than Flushing, since they have a one seat ride (N from 8th ave) all the time, and those taking the W will have it during the week.
One other question though. Will the W bypass Dekalb like the B?
Yes, the W will take the DeKalb bypass. It would be stupid to have a 4th ave express hit the bridge local tracks at DeKalb.
If you recall the 1987 map, the (B) took the bypass at all times. The (N) also took the bypass when it went over the bridge in 1990.
>>If you recall the 1987 map, the (B) took the bypass at all times. The (N) also took the bypass when it went over the bridge in 1990.<<
In 1985, the B&N only took the Byps. rush hours.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to use Grand Street as a conventional, two-track terminal. The only switch between the downtown and uptown 6th Avenue Express/Grand Street tracks south of West 4th is just west of Broadway-Lafayette. And, that interlocking only permits southbound express trains to go to the northbound track and northbound express trains to go to the southbound track.
::::::::::::::::::::::: North Bound
//
//
//
::::::::::::::::::::::: South Bound
See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/chrystie.gif and http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smdowntn.gif (I would be great if someone would add to the FAQ instructions on how to put graphics and links in these messages. Thank you!)
It is not helpful for turning trains at Grand Street. They would still have to be single tracked to Grand, which severely limits the number that can terminate there.
There also does not seem to be a place to put an interlocking at Grand Street. The track south of the station is on a curve and is sloped. I don't think that there is room north of the station, and it would cost tens of millions, disrupt train service, and force the street to be opened up to replace the columns between the tracks with beams and other columns.
We are about 35 years too late to put in the interlocking.
I've done the links for you:
1. Chrystie Street Area Track Map
2. Manhattan Downtown Area Track Map (small)
A crossover would need to be built north of Grand St. Why one wasn't put there when Chrystie St. was being constructed is beyond me.
Now you have the J riders bitching and moaning that a change of trains is necessary whereas that formerly was not the case. Keep this in mind: whenever the TA placates one group of passengers they will antagonise another group. As usual, the TA is in a no win situation.
I honestly don't think the reduction of service to Grand Street is a big deal. Most neighborhoods are served by one station, maybe two (or sometimes none), and only one line, maybe two. In addition to Grand Street, Chinatown has Canal Street (J/M/N/R/Z/6, to be J/M/N/R/Q/Q/Z/6), the Bowery (J/M/Z), Essex Street/Delancey Street (F/J/M/Z), and East Broadway (F). That's stunningly better service than just about anywhere else in the city. Even if Grand were to vanish (and it won't -- service will just be reduced to a shuttle), Chinatown would still be most excellently served. Sure, some people will be inconvenienced by the slightly longer walk to another station or the need to transfer, but Chinatown has enough other options that it's really not a great concern. Besides, those nearer to Canal will win out by the improved service there.
That said, I am always in favor of offering the best possible service for the price, and there is really no reason that I can see to reduce Grand service to a two-stop shuttle. Offering better service would require operating in a way the TA isn't used to but I think it would actually be cheaper than running a shuttle.
Here's my plan:
Run the V (or the 63rd Street shuttle before the V goes into effect -- but I'll call it the V throughout) south on the local track, as planned, to W4. Just north of W4, switch onto the express track (which isn't otherwise in use). Stop at W4 and B-L. At B-L a spare T/O boards the last car. The train pulls into Grand (southbound track) and as soon as is physically possible, the doors close and it pulls out to the north. At B-L, the train is still on the SB side; that's fine, and it even offers a convenient transfer to the Brooklyn-bound F. The old T/O gets off there and walks to the north (west) end of the platform in time to meet the next SB train. Just north of B-L, switch onto the NB express track. Stop at W4 and switch onto the local track.
It's somewhat daring, but I see no reason that the run from W4 to Grand and back up to W4 would take more than five minutes. As long as the V operates at no more than 12 tph, this should work. (If not, or it's too risky, run alternate V's to 2nd Avenue; at least Grand would see ten-minute through service.)
Why do I claim this is cheaper than running a shuttle? Because the total cost to the TA over running the V to 2nd (and doing away with Grand entirely) is the cost of one extra T/O -- at any given time, either there are two T/O's on a single train (if a train is south of B-L at that time) or there's one T/O on the B-L platform. Running a shuttle takes two additional crew members and one more trainset. And turning trains immediately at Grand keeps the in-service trains in useful service more often.
An alternate plan, whose details I will leave as an exercise to the reader: extend alternate B/D's (that's right -- not the B, not the D, but alternate trains of each) express to Grand. The B will run in both directions south of 34th on the SB track and the D will run in both directions south of 34th on the NB track. (Switch them if it makes you more comfortable.) Time arrivals so a 34th-bound B arrives at 34th approximately as its leader arrives at Grand, and maintain that headway by releasing both B's from their respective termini at approximately the same time. Do the same with the D. (If this gives Grand too much service, eliminate the extension on either the B or the D.) As long as headways cooperate, this should work, and it would still probably be cheaper than running a dedicated shuttle.
G trains should have some coverage of Queens Blvd for rush hour/midday service.
An alternative is to make every other G train from 5 AM to 8:30PM go to 71/Continental. This may be problematic because of the 20 minute headways, but at least a little service is better than none.
As far as the 63rd tunnel is concerned, it should have added a seperate tunnel below the primary Queens Blvd tunnel, with the only stops at Roosevelt, 71/Continental, Kew Gardens, Parsons and 179, with a provisions for Jamaica Center and any extensions east of 179.
This gives the meaning of what it should have been, the Queens super-express, even if it is done with a lower level.
Nick
The Queens Super Express can still be done - but would be the subject of future Capital Plans. What you described was originally envisioned on a subway ROW along LIRR trackage.
I beleive the best usage for 63rd. St was to connect it into the Montaulk LIRR and have this line serve Archer Ave, instead of a branch of the existing Queens Blvd. IND. This way would provide a fast way into Manhattan for thousands of southeastern Queens riders, easing the crowding on the QB IND, and providing direct subway service to Glendale and Maspeth. Of course, this will never happen in my lifetime.
Or at any other time, I suspect.
The tunnel isn't really close to the Montaulk Line. As for "fast" service, I've timed the Queens Blvd IND and the LIRR from LIC to Jamaica and back. The subway beat the railroad by several minutes.
This routing seems to be of more interest to railfans than to passengers. Besides, if people in SE Queens want more train service, the obstacles to getting the TA to provide it are just as great as to getting the LIRR to do so.
The big advantage to using the Montauk line is not speed but capacity: six tracks can carry more trains than four.
What they should do is have a rush hour special (3 or 5 trains at 12-20 min. headways) like the old Chrystie era QB or pre-Chrystie Nassau specials. Perhaps it could be reverse peak only, so it woul serve the Greenpoint riders going to Queens without getting in the way of Queens riders heading into Manhattan. They would lay up after their runs.
The next phase of this to increase capacity was to reverse one of the express tracks during rush hours. But this would definitely squeeze out the G, as all the reverse peak Manhattan trains would be on one local track.
how about building that one track express line along the LIRR to Jamaica. with just one track, im sure the LIRR wont have a bird about it. it could be used as peak service routing and diverting right of way. Well,how about it T.A?
That plan was proposed at one time. It can still be done.
Write to the TA and find out what they think.
The TA think? That's an oxymoron. It does sound like a good idea. One question though. Would that express lane be subway or above ground?
Above ground. The original plan was to put in an additional track for subway trains on the LIRR's ROW. If I am correct, that would expand the ROW to seven tracks up till Woodside, then five tracks to Forest Hills.
If implemented, Subway and LIRR traffic would not be able to mix, as per FRA rules. A variant on this would have put two new tracks in service.
Whatever your amount of cynicism, if you're interested, you lose nothing besides a 34 cent stamp by sending a letter, and you will probably get a reasonably informative reply. I have done so many times, and have gotton a lot of useful information from MTA over the years (and have even succeeded, by various means, in getting them to do some of what I've wanted -by teaming with other advocates, maintaing and cultivating correspondence relationships with MTA people, by consistently showing up to hearings, and by supporting the efforts of elected officials and getting my state rep and Senator to stand up and be counted- ).
Try this: Write a polite inquiry to:
Doug Sussman, Director of Govt and Community Relations
MTA, 347 Madison Av
NY, NY 10017
Over time, Sussman has earned my respect. Give him a chance to do the same by you.
(Over time, Sussman has earned my respect.)
Sussman doesn't make the decisions. Neither does the MTA. They do the best they can.
(Supporting the efforts of elected officials and getting my state rep and Senator)
Now they STINK.
If NYC were a separate state, it's state and local taxes would be the second highest (behind Alaska with all it oil tax revenues), and its school spending the second lowest, in the nation as a share of income. New York City Transit was just about the old major rail transit system that didn't put a major extension/improvement in service in the 1990s. 1990 to 2001 was the longest period without a new car purchase since the opening of the subway in 1904. Parks recreation, and cultural spending is half the national average, both at the state and local level.
This is all right off the Census of Goverments. Need I go on? It gets worse and worse.
"(Over time, Sussman has earned my respect.)
Sussman doesn't make the decisions. Neither does the MTA. They do the best they can.
(Supporting the efforts of elected officials and getting my state rep and Senator)
Now they STINK."
OK. But I got these people to do some of what I wanted. So either they don't stink as much as you say, or I'm reasonably good at dealing with them (and no, I haven't made any $$ contributions to them).
Attitude, Larry?
(OK. But I got these people to do some of what I wanted. So either they don't stink as much as you say, or I'm reasonably good at dealing with them (and no, I haven't made any $$ contributions to them). Attitude, Larry?)
Bad, but then I've added up all they've done, and found it wanting. Not for me and mine -- we are well off and lucky. But for the majority. NYU's Taub Urban Research Center will be posting my Census of Governments compilation soon, so you can see for yourself. I can e-mail it your way, but it's big. I went with charts (with more detailed spreadsheets behind) in order to make all the boring numbers less boring, and these take up a lot of room. I mailed it off to a few folks, and it took up six disks.
What have they done to compensate for all we pay, and all we don't have? If you're on the inside in NYC, perhaps, you can get a deal for yourself -- one of those special deal schools for your kids in an otherwise awful system, for example. But the subway is the subway, and the people who ride it are NOT the insiders.
I have a good attitude about the City of New York. It's better run than in the past, and term limits has created the possibility of REAL ELECTIONS! But the Vampire State? Look at the numbers.
OK, I will take a chance. But don't be dumb about this. Do you really think I have the chance of a snowball in hell of making any connection with the guy. Remember I'm in California and Sussman is thinking when he reads my letter about whether my lights are on or off.
I was in California when I was designing the Ride and Seek game and the TA was very helpful to me.
Look, tell Sussman you visit NY often every year, have family and friends there, and you utilize the subway all the time (esp. the line you're writing about). You're not lying, and your relatives want you to use the subway efficiently.
Write, and be patient. He may answer directly, or he may have Thomas Savage (VP at NYC TA) answer. I've gotten letters from both.
If I wanted something in particular to be done, I've been persistent about it, going back and forth with them a few times. I've made sure to attend hearings, or at least write comments for the record, on hearings which have anything to do with my issue. And I've paired up with other groups which added a lot of clout. And I've been flexible about how MTA implements what I wanted. I've had some real success.
At the very least, I've always learned something from their replies.
OK Ron, if you can give me his E-Mail Address I will start the ball rolling. Can you get it for me? After that I will start writing letters. However, my impression is that when he finds out what a fanatic and one track Sea Beach-on-the-Manny B-mind I have he may dismiss me as a crank. Sometimes I wonder if my lovely wife Linda doesn't just tune me out when I bring up the NY Subway. But at least you guys onthe line haven't written me off as some old war horse foggie.
OK, here goes:
Douglas Sussman
Deputy Director, Govt and Community Relations
MTA
347 Madison Avenue
NY NY 10017
You're not a fanatic, and you know the difference between posting a rant on Subtalk (hey, I've done it too, OK?) and writing a letter to a public agency. What's to worry?
Ron
Well, I am two months late with this (because of classes), so here it goes:
Very efficient.
I rode on all 14 main metro lines (excepting the 3bis and 7bis lines), and there are a few quirks that are quite unique to Paris.
There are some passages (always at stations with transfers) going one way only, indicated by the signs "passage interdit," meaning passage prohibited.
For you elevated fans out there, parts of the Line 2 (Porte Dauphine - Nation via Barbes-Rochechouart) and much of the Line 6 (Charles De Gaulle/Etoile - Nation via Denfert Rochereau) make good trips.
Quai de la Rapee on Line 5 is another elevated station.
That said, just about every station on the system has side platforms, but I bought a book about the Paris Metro, and there are a few stations which have offset side platforms (a la Downtown Crossing in Boston's MBTA), a small number of island platforms and several abandoned stations.
The train length for the Metro is always five cars (or the equivalent).
The newest metro cars run on Line 1 and 14. Line 14, which is an automatic metro line, uses the ATO version of the Line 1 cars, which permits a good railfan view.
If you buy your tickets in carnets (groups) of ten, the price of a ride is only about US$0.80, cheaper than every city in the USA, and you can use those tickets on buses also. Do NOT buy tickets singly, as they are more expensive that way (about US$1.10).
"Passes" are available for a week or a month, but require a passport-sized photograph. These "passes" contain the pass itself, and the special ticket that is used for the turnstiles.
That said, there are ticket inspectors roaming around the system who can ask for your ticket at anytime. I've encountered those only twice in the dozens of times I took the metro during the 4 days I was in Paris. There is a hefty fine (at least US$40) for being caught without a valid ticket/pass.
Nick
>>>The train length for the Metro is always five cars (or the equivalent).
Not quite. A couple of lines use 6 cars, and the #1 uses seven cars.
The Paris Metro trains are articulated.
Only a small handful of lines uses articulated cars. The #1, and one other that doesn't come to mind right about now.
The 14/meteor
Peace,
ANDEE
Articulated? Maybe it depends on what one means by "articulated." From the interior, it might appear so. The marvelous equipment on the 14 (with wide front windows) and similar, but cabbed, equipment on the 1 have continuous interiors, as if you are inside a "boa." However, the cars rest on their own trucks. The trucks are not under the coupler between the cars. Each car has two trucks with four steel wheels, plus the pneus.
I am uncertain how the "diaphragms" on the 14 differ from from those on the 1, but I understand that a tight curve at Bastille caused a modification.
There are some genuine artics on the Metro (as we had on the BMT), but they are older and on a route with lesser equipment needs.
I think the old artics (MF52) are gone. They last run on Ligne 10.
OTOH, some BOAs must still live on Ligne 7bis.
The 1 and 4 uses 6 cars. 3bis=3 cars.7bis=4 cars or one BOA unit. 11=4 cars. I'm not sure about 14 but all other lines have 5 car trains.
Why do they still have ticket inspectors? The system isn't POP and the turnstyles are fairly jump proof. When I was there I never ran into a TI. On the other hand, farebeating IS a national pasttime in France.
When they had 1st class cars, the inspectors checked that you had a 1st class ticket. I was inspected in a 1.class car once. I don't know if they still have 1st class cars.
They don't anymore. Not even on the RER, I think.
First class was eliminated on the RATP a while ago, and the RER two years ago.
Many thanks to Nick for his report, especially since I was able to ride the system for only a limited time. Please allow some random comments.
The 42nd Street library, 3rd floor reading room, has quite a few titles on the Paris metro. See http://www.catnyp.nypl.org and maybe use the keywords "paris metro."
The new book by Jean Tricoire (Un Siecle de Metro en 14 lignes) and the older one by Jean Robert (Notre Metro) are both listed. A warning at the desk says, "Allow 90 minutes for delivery of books," but I got Robert and a few others within 15 minutes.
The new equipment on line 14 is MP89 CA (conduite automatique) with the magnificent railfan window.
The new equipment on line 1 is MP89 CC (cabine de conduite).
According to Tricoire, it seems that the artics are MF88 (fer = steel = not rubber tires) on line 7bis, where six 3-car trains provide a headway of 4min 10sec. (Like Nick, I did not get to ride 7bis. My statements can be wrong.)
I also point out that there are passes which do not require photos: the costly Paris Visite pass, and the more reasonable Mobilis. Check out the tariffs on http://www.ratp.fr
By the way, New York's system is better than Paris in several ways: Our trains have much greater capacity. Our express-to-local transfers are much easier. Our higher base fare can bring you, I guess, about three times further than any Paris metro ticket. Note on a RER map how quickly one meets distance-based fares.
I had posted this question a while back. As we all know with new technology there comes a price with peoples jobs and security. With the so called Hi-tech CBTC will there still be equipment along side the rails that will have to be maintained by the people who maintain the current signals? Or is like everything else in the dot.com age we don't need your services any longer.
The CBTC will be the new "signaling" (I personally don't think it counts as signaling) so the people who maintain it will be signal maintainers. Currently, most signaling systems take 3 hours to find the problem and 10 seconds to fix it. CBTC will probably take 10 seconds to find and 3 hours to fix.
Read the links I posted and the carry on...
Arti
Traditional block equipment will still be necessary for CBTC, in addition to the new CBTC wayside equipment. The block equipment will serve two purposes: interlocking at switches and operation of non-CBTC rolling stock. This is dubbed the Auxilliary Wayside System or AWS.
There will be a lot less equipment. The spec reportedly is that the AWS be capable of maintaining a 10 minute headway. One report that I'd read stated that they hoped to contain costs by keeping the wayside within the stations. This is one reason for wanting to use spread spectrum radio rather than near field inductive loop for the DCS - the communications system to the moving trains.
The idea would be for there to be single blocks between stations. This would permit them to place the insulated joint and the wayside equipment for the AWS within each station. If this is still the case, it would permit them to maintain much closer spacing than the 10 minute headway spec. It would permit them to maintain the existing minimum 4 minute rush hour headway on the 14th St Line without ever using the CBTC. :-)
There is one potential problem. The indoor range spec for the spread spectrum RF equipment is only 300 feet. They are talking about using off the shelf standard IEEE 802.11, 2,400 MHz access points. My own experience in using such equipment has been to believe the manufacturer. The outdoor range has a 2000 foot spec.
The Culver Line test was done using the inductive loop system that is currently used on the Paris Metro Meteor. If they are forced to use this system, you may rest assured that there will be plenty of CBTC equipment along the ROW.
This is dubbed the Auxilliary Wayside System or AWS.
They need to find another name. AWS has already been taken. It stands for Advanced Warning System, which is the intermittant, un-enforced, national ATS system used in the UK.
The Culver Line test was done using the inductive loop system that is currently used on the Paris Metro Meteor. If they are forced to use this system, you may rest assured that there will be plenty of CBTC equipment along the ROW.
A Cab Signal based system just requires a relay box at each block segment. A lot less wiring also.
And we will still have trippers at interlockings and when those fail signal mnt. on the ground >G<.
[The Culver Line test was done using the inductive loop system that is currently used on the Paris Metro Meteor. If they are forced to use this system, you may rest assured that there will be plenty of CBTC equipment along the ROW. ]
Where did you get that? What I read was that the tests were done using the proposed 2.4 GHz communication technology respectively pitched by all 3 contractors i.e. Matra's and Alstom/Alcatels.
Arti
There will still be signal maintainers, but they may not be the
same people who do it today. The TA has a "tiger team" called
"new technology signal department" for the CBTC stuff. The existing
maintainers are not touching the new stuff, which is just as well,
because laptop computers don't work too well as shunt boxes.
When that GOH was done on the 32's that replaced the original bonnet with roll curtains with whatever's happened to them since, does the NYCTA have the equipment to reproduce the original unique Budd "shot welds" or is it done some other way?
I figure Train Dude might know this one ... they had a VERY unique method of applying EXTREME high current to the stainless that resulted in the neat, rivetless design that's as solid as if it was poured metal. Just curious, I won't die if there isn't an answer. :)
Outta here for the night, will pick up subtalk tomorrow so don't be offended if I don't reply for a number of hours ...
The changes made to the R-32 #1 end Bulkheads were done by Morrison Knudsen and not by the TA.
Ah ... OK ... sorry for not knowing that, been away from the trains since 1975. So I'm guessing that the TA doesn't have the special welders then in any of the car shops should that kind of work be needed on any of them? I've seen film of those welding facilities in operation and from seeing it can see why those cars are so durable.
I'm not sure about what welding system is employed to replicate the Budd welding technique. On the other hand, I've seen the results of some of the repairs made by the overhaul shop and they have been able to replicate those results when necessary.
If they ever run that piece on the History channel again (part of the Trains Unlimited series) you've gotta SEE what they had hanging from chains from the overheads to do that in the first place. I *know* YOU would be impressed by it. I would imagine Philly dimmed every time they did a shot weld. :)
Stainless steel car construction has been the norm for transit use
for several decades. What's the big mystery in welding it?
Budd used a very special method of doing the actual welds in such a way that the bond had a lot more strength than normal "spot welding" as done elsewhere. It allowed Budd to build a lighter car that was very rigid. I don't pretend to know the specifics, but it's something car shop guys all agree was rather special. When Budd shuttered its doors, the "shot weld" equipment commanded an extreme price at liquidation ... that's all I know. Perhaps someone else here might know some actual specifics. The technique though was unique to Budd.
AFAIK "spot", or resistance welding is used for the sheet metal
work only. Structural members are welded using heli-arc/TIG.
Whatever patent Budd might have had on stainless welding has long
since expired.
I don't doubt that at all ... not one of my areas of expertise. Back in those days it was something quite special according to old timers who worked with that stuff. It was "big magic" at the time and my question was along the lines of whether or not the TA had the ability to do that "in house" with Budd out of the picture. Turns out apparently that they don't ... I was just curious. But the Budd folks referred to it as "SHOT welding" as opposed to the traditional "spot welding" techniques ... reason I was curious is I know that traditional "spot" welding doesn't last over a long duration and somehow what Budd did originally sure does seem to have stood the test of time.
I've noticed that the TA has been doing some systemwide trackwork recently. The thingamajigs (Don't know their real name) that hold the rails to the ties are being slowly replaced. First I saw them at High St. They were sitting in the Trench between the tracks. A week later they were in place. Then on the G at Hoyt and Schermerhorn, they did the same thing (also replacing the things that hold up the 3rd rail and the supports for the wooden board above it). I just figured i'd mention this. If anyone here wants to see the differences and what i'm referring to, go to Hoyt-Schermerhorn St. At the rear of the Northbound "G" track the new connectors are in place. The front will probably be done soon (as of now, the work atopped at roughly the first signal in the station). To see the old connectors, go to the Front of the southbound side.
Maybe they just need replacing.
The insulators for the 3rd rail get replace when the thingamajigs get replace because the thingamajigs raise the height of the rails. Thus the 3rd rails must be raised, ergo the new insulators.Some times this also means new 3rd rail covers. This is usually a prelude to welded rail being installed if its not already in place.
avid
At 14th Street/8 Ave on the downtown local track, they were replacing rail while re-using the plates and hold-down clips. I watched the gang end up with a 3/4" gap in the last section, which caused them to remove the clips quite a ways back and install spacer shims between the joints to make up the slack. They still wound up with something like a 3/8" gap, which I thought would be unacceptably large. I'll have to go back and see if they re-did it or replaced the rail.
"Measure twice. Cut once."
I saw the Five O'clock edition of the news that featured the opening of JFK Airport's new Terminal 4. It was a nice feature showing the new terminal and all it has to offer. It even showed an unearthed 50 year old time capsule buried during the term of Thomas E. Dewey, when JFK was known as Idlewild Airport. And now the moment you've been all waiting for.
WNBC LAYS AN OSTRICH EGG.
At the end of thenews item they mention but show no video of AIRTRAIN and say that the AIRTRAIN now nearing completion will offer a ONE SEAT RIDE to Manhattan..........NOT !
Or should we make that a dinosaur egg !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
On the scale of 1 to 100 of just how meaningful that distinction is (besides us Subfan fanatics), I'd give it a 2.
If you're in the news business, you do at least try to strive to be as accurate as possible, though TV or radio screw ups are easier to ignore because unless someone has their VCR going (and only the real Dan Rather haters out their tape the news, for God sakes), a TV reporter's mistake like that goes out into the ether, never to be seen again, while a mistake like that in Friday morning's Times would be around for generations to see on microfilm and on their internet website (for a small retrieval charge, of course).
Of course, it would be funny when Airtrain does open to put the same WNBC reporter on the first trip and see if she can make her one seat ride into Manhattan. "Chuck I think I may be getting closer to Manhattan now, but I really can't be sure yet. It seems as though we've gone back through Kennedy Aiport three or four times already, but I'll ask one of the Port Authority officials on the train when we'll be arriving at Penn Station, and then get back to you..."
[re news report saying that Airtrain will offer a single-seat ride into Manhattan]
On the scale of 1 to 100 of just how meaningful that distinction is (besides us Subfan fanatics), I'd give it a 2.
I disagree. Airtrain's lack of a single-seat ride is controversial and has been quite widely mentioned as a reason why it might be a failure. Certainly that possibility does exist, although that's not my personal viewpoint.
I would consider Channel 4's error anything but trivial.
"I would consider Channel 4's error anything but trivial."
When it opens to service, we'll find out how important or trivial it is, and whether the controversy was significant, or a tempest in a teaspoon.
Back during the floods of 97 they had a report from St. Louis about the flooding there. Then they said "Further upstream in Fargo...."
Hello? Where you learn geography.
Fargo is *not* up streem from St. Louis,
it is in fact on the OTHER SIDE OF THE CONTINENTAL DIVIDE!
Hehehehehe....
Elias
I'd call it a "Fleecing of America" ...
Fargo, ND, is upstream from St Louis. The continental divide forms part of the Montana-Idaho border, then goes north through western Montana.
What do you expect from the most liberal news channel in the metropolitan area? I expect nothing but stupidity and lies!
I expect nothing but stupidity and lies!
I wasn't aware that you were in charge of it.
THIS IS NEW YORK, BEING LIBERAL IS A VIRTUE TO MOST OF US!!!!
Besides, anyone who has watched Tom and Dick in action know that liberals have no monopoly on lies.
There was an add for a dot com reality company. The tagline want "Paying 6% is like touching the third rail." I am surprised that they felt that most people (yes, even subway people) would know what a third rail was in order to get the joke. Is "third rail" a widly known term?
There was an add for a dot com reality company. The tagline want "Paying 6% is like touching the third rail." I am surprised that they felt that most people (yes, even subway people) would know what a third rail was in order to get the joke. Is "third rail" a widly known term?
I would say so. Political commentators - presumably addressing nationwide audiences - have long said that Social Security is the "third rail" of American politics, in other words an untouchable issue.
I'm always hearing people on this site complain about the R-68's, calling them "hippos" and deriding their acceleration and cruising speed qualities.
Does anyone here have any cold, hard facts to support these ideas, or are they merely urban legends on par with alligators-in-the-sewers stuff?
Dude! You don't know about the alligators in the sewers? Now who's naiive!
Of course, the legend about hippos underground is perposterous!
;-D Andrew
"Of course, the legend about hippos underground is perposterous!"
Oh, not true ... I'm 6' 6", but when I see a Hippo or a Rino (R-46) arrive at a station I get scared. They ARE big lumbering beasts. On several "Fileld Trips" my friends have pushed me into the bowels of those monsters. They make funny noises unlike the other subway cars, so I was scared & cramped, and it seemed to take forever until we reached our destination. I was only happy that the Train Dude & his helpers have them in fine mechanical shape so we didn't experience a breakdown ... now that would be realy scary.
Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, I prefer to fly in a bird, Redbird that is. BTW, my garndson, who's in 2nd grade now, likes to use the jungle gyms in the Hippos when we do a Field Trip on a holiday or week-end. He thinks the seats a just right to hop over too.
Mr t__:^)
We starting this all over again??
It never stopped.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, nothing like beating a dead horse.
or a dead hippo
In the past few weeks I've been held on trains seemingly needlessly a number of times. I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong.
Two weeks ago, on Sunday, I was on a Manhattan-bound J, running express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy. It's a joyfully quick express run until the red signal before Myrtle. Wait, wait, wait -- okay, a Metro-bound M pulls out in our path -- fine. Wait, wait, wait some more -- what's going on? Ah, that's it, they're sending a Myrtle-bound M in our path. Wait for the M to discharge and pull ahead to relay. Finally, the signal turns green. What compelled the tower to keep us waiting for not one but two M's?
Fast forward to this past Sunday. The Stillwell-bound N is running express on the B. Approaching Stillwell, we have to wait a few minutes for a track to clear out. The track clears out but the signal remains red. A few minutes later a B crosses our path. After that, we go. Couldn't the track be cleared before our train arrived? And once we had been kept waiting already, couldn't the tower let our N squeeze in before letting the B out?
On to today, around 11:30 in the morning. A to 207th. First we're held (with no announcements) between 190th and Dyckman. We stop briefly at Dyckman (where a SB R44 passes) and we're held again between Dyckman and 207th. (Oh, how I enjoy being held in a hot and otherwise empty R44 car between stations, where my only means of communication with anyone else is via the emergency brake, which is unfortunately not what I wanted to communicate at the time.) An announcement informs us that we're being held due to congestion. (Congestion on the midday A?!) Another R44 passes and we pull into 207th, where yet another R44 is sleeping on one track. Who allowed the sleeping train to hog up platform space that was obviously needed for revenue service when there's a perfectly good express track at Dyckman? (That's where it moved a few minutes later.) Incidentally, that means at least four A's in a row consisted of R44's (the following one had R38's; I don't know about the preceding one).
An hour or two later, another A (R38 this time around) to 42nd. At 72nd we pass a C. Approaching 59th, we stop -- both tracks ahead are occupied. The B pulls out. The D is held to connect with the C we had just passed. We're stuck waiting in the tunnel. I realize that if the B and D pull out together, one of them is forced to wait in the tunnel, but isn't it better to have one train waiting in the tunnel and everyone else proceeding on their merry ways than to have one train waiting in the tunnel and another waiting in a station?
Oh, one more, early this afternoon on the Brooklyn-bound N.
We pull into DeKalb and the holding lights are on. We hold and hold and hold. We don't actually wait long enough for a D or Q to meet us (isn't that the point of holding lights?). The lights go out as a B passes us on the express track. We pull out, but then, naturally, we hit lots of reds just rounding the curve into Pacific since there's a B in front of us. Couldn't our N have been released right away? We wouldn't have even held up the B. And once we were held for the B to pass, why not keep us in the station another minute so we wouldn't have to crawl behind the B.
Mr Greenberger wrote:Couldn't the track be cleared before our train arrived? And once we had been kept waiting already, couldn't the tower let our N squeeze in before letting the B out?
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Frustrating isn't it? As a c/r i have missed my train i take to go home many times (im a 15 after arrival the next train leaves at 19) Unfortunatly a train that is leaving takes priority over the arriving train.Why? most dispatchers when they see the arriving train at the creek south of stillwell terminal log it as on time.(No matter how long it sits there) So the dispatchers and tower concentrate on getting the trains out first.This causes alot of arguments with the dispatchers when i try to put in my overtime.
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In response to n trains being held at dekalb:the running time between whitehall and dekalb is 10 min.The average time it takes (with a good t/o) is 6 to 7 min.Factor in how early you are before whitehall and you could be sitting at Dekalb a while.Unless the c/r accidently forgets to see the lights lol!
Thanks for the insight.
Why doesn't somebody correct the running time from Whitehall to DeKalb?
Speaking of DeKalb, this time in the other direction:
When I'm on the Manhattan-bound Q in Brooklyn, I'm usually aiming to transfer to a B/D in Manhattan so I can get to 59th. Surely many Q riders transfer to the B/D in Manhattan while few B/D riders transfer to the Q. Invariably, whenever I ride the Q, it's held past DeKalb to let a B sneak in. Wouldn't it be more passenger-friendly to let the Q go first? When that happens, I know it's going to be a long wait for the next B (and I don't know where the next D is), so I go upstairs at W4 for an A/C, or, if an F pulls in, I take that to 14th for the long walk to the 1/2/3/9.
My impression is that nobody actually bothers thinking about whether it would be more useful to the passengers to have the Q run first or second. That's a shame.
DeKalb tower will but the B in front of D/Q every time. The B is the 4th Ave (Brooklyn)/6th Ave (Manhattan) express so it goes first PERIOD.
That is the reason your are held and there is no connection, the B is coming out of Pacfic Street.
They always let the express go first, and I ride through DeKalb everyday.
Yeah, but why? Has anyone at the tower bothered to think this through?
Once the B and Q diverge, the Q makes four more stops before terminating (and right now it only makes one). The B continues to Harlem or the Bronx. There are undoubtedly many more Q passengers who want to transfer to the B than vice versa. The Q should go first so its passengers can catch the B.
Similarly, if a D and a Q approach Prospect Park at the same time, the Q should go first, so its passengers can transfer to the D behind it.
If a B and a D meet on the bridge approach, it's a tossup -- it's reasonable to let either line go first. I'd suggest alternating or filpping a coin so one route doesn't get shafted every time, but if there's some reason the express should have priority over the local, I can live with that.
Dear David,
You thought this through, but do you expect the bureaucrats to think so intelligently?
If they do the opposite of what you suggest, then they'll discourage ridership, and people like me will get fed up and start driving again, relieving the congestion in a way which costs them nothing. Which do YOU think they'll do?
But maybe I'm not right, and the Second Avenue Line was actually finished, rather than scuttled.
Not quite. It just seems that way, but in actuality, the B has a habit of running late. If you were to look at the Dispatcher's gap sheets at DeKalb, it would show the exact order that service over the bridge should run. For example:
1053 D STL-------1136
1058 B STL-------1138 BYPASS
1106 Q BBC-------1141
1101 D STL-------1144
The left hand numbers would be the interval of the train. The number on the right would be the departure time from DeKalb Avenue. The trains should operate over the Bridge in this order if the service is on time. If one of the services is running late (for example, assume that the 1058 B is 6 minutes late), the 1106 Q obviously cannot wait for the B to arrive, so it has to operate "one ahead". When the 1058 B finally arrives at DeKalb, and the D is in immediate proximity, the B gets the priority as it is now "one behind" in order, and it is running late as well.
The late train is always given priority for merges such as this. That is why it seems that the B always goes over the D/Q on the Bridge since the B tends to be tardy.
If the B is routinely late, that's proof (proff?) that the B schedule needs adjustment.
And NOBODY dare blame it on the subway cars in use! If it'd be able to throw off the schedule, the cars would've been definately fixed.
Yeah most of the time while waiting at Grand for awhile a packed B pulls in, then a D or Q is right behind it. "Bunching" can happen with trains too. The main reason is probably door holding.
The B IS late, more often than not....here are some prime examples where the B "has" to go first in addition to Bridge access...36th Street/4th Ave...the Manhattan N always holds outside 36th Street, even in the midday (N arrives on the "8" i.e. 9:38, 9:48, 9:58 - the B is supposed to get there at the "3", 5 minutes earlier...it never does...
59th St/Columbus Circle...the D train gets there first, on time as per the schedule...the holding lights are on, waits for the B which goes first...
Same goes for the downtown B into Pacific versus the N which has been close to its schedule...
The B is always most crowded too...so many D's and Q's make it through before one comes...
What's also annoying is that in the time in takes the B to come and "Cross first" another D, Q, or N could;ve made it in/out of the station already...
SeaBeach53
There are less B's then D's though.
I wish we could see the gap sheets for the southbound trains at 59th.
If the B is late so often, then the scheduling of the B should be modified.
Yeah well they do this nonsense in Flushing-Main street too. I remember time after time waiting on a Manhattan bound express in the AM to leave, they just kept letting other trains in and out and holding us. Some T/O's actually blow their horn to remind the tower when they have to leave.
If you were on that C wouldn't you prefer to have the option to connect to that D rather than the A? Which is more useful?
At Myrtle, they have crossed two Ms in front of the J both times I rode the Eastern Pkwy - Marcy express run. Maybe it's easier to set the switches at either Marcy with the M before the J or Myrtle with both directions set to the M at the same time?
The incident at Stillwell, trains departing terminals get more priorty than arrivals. Why? Delaying a train when it barely started its run slaughters on time performance stats. Arrivals are either already late or are early (padded schedule) and therefore don't need the line-up quite so fast.
I don't know which is more useful -- allowing C passengers the option to transfer to the D (or the waiting A) or allowing A passengers the option to transfer to the B (or the waiting C). If nothing else, there are probably more passengers on the A.
Where are the switches west of Myrtle, anyway? The track maps don't show any, but that has to be incorrect, since the M relayed there. Is there any way the M could use the northernmost track (where the J usually runs) and reverse north of there? (The track maps don't show any crossovers there either.) That would eliminate all conflicts.
The incident at Stillwell would have never even happened if an N had been sent out before we arrived. As for the B -- isn't it generally preferable to hold a train in a station than outside one? The B could have kept its doors open (offering more passengers the option to board) until our N had gotten out of its way -- but NOOOO, we had to sit and wait as the D I was hoping to catch pulled out.
The M is relayed by running all the way to Marcy and using the middle track there. It then deadheads to Myrtle and goes in service. Pain in the ass which requires more crews and trains to be running than the usual shuttle.
That sounds like a real pain! But I guess it means the track map is correct. I'm surprised I didn't see any M's along the way, either at Marcy or on the way back. Maybe I just wasn't looking.
Couldn't it be turned around quickly at Myrtle? The incoming M should be held outside the station until just after a J passes (yeah, I know, that messes up the transfer) and then brought in and out on the center track. Or could the J become a shuttle with the M running through to Chambers? There really don't seem to be any great solutions here unless the TA is willing to run both the M and the J through to Manhattan.
Why doesn't the TA run the M to Manhattan middays and weekends anymore? I remember not so long ago when the M was running at non-rush times.
Gee-Oh in F-ekt on da Bridge.
The incident at Stillwell would have never even happened if an N had been sent out before we arrived. As for the B -- isn't it generally preferable to hold a train in a station than outside one? The B could have kept its doors open (offering more passengers the option to board) until our N had gotten out of its way -- but NOOOO, we had to sit and wait as the D I was hoping to catch pulled out.
But it wasn't time for the N to leave. The train is not allowed to be sent early - if it leaves early, it gets to DeKalb early and then someone whines because it has to sit there. The first week I was a CR on the N, I operated just like I did in the IRT. The result - we stood at Astoria Blvd for 8 minutes. The second week, I operated with a watch in view at every station to keep the train on its schedule. As for the B, it was time for it to leave. In two sentences, you've made one train early and one train late, just so you wouldn't have to sit on a train
Just guessing here: if you're ideas had been in use and you either a) missed your N because it left early or b)were late for an appointment because your B left late, then you would still be complaining about the schedule. Correct?
But it wasn't time for the N to leave. The train is not allowed to be sent early - if it leaves early, it gets to DeKalb early and then someone whines because it has to sit there.
The schedule should never have three trains vying for two tracks at the same time. If the schedule mandates such a scenario, the schedule needs to be fixed.
In this case the schedule was probably messed up because the N was running express on the B. That's no excuse -- everyone knows that expresses run faster than locals and the schedule should have been adjusted accordingly.
If it does happen, the N in the station should be released early even if that puts it ahead of schedule. I don't see why it's necessary to slavishly adhere to a precise schedule on a weekend afternoon; I'd be inclined to go ahead and run the N all the way however quickly it reaches its destination. If it must be held to get it back on schedule, though, hold it where it won't get in anybody else's way, like at DeKalb (unless an R is trailing). Although I'm not thrilled with holding trains at DeKalb for schedule adjustments, better that than holding trains between stations for schedule adjustments -- at least at DeKalb, passengers to DeKalb can get off, passengers entering at DeKalb have an extended time to get on, and passengers in a hurry are able to defect to the D or walk to the C/R position and ask for an estimate of how much longer the wait will be.
The first week I was a CR on the N, I operated just like I did in the IRT. The result - we stood at Astoria Blvd for 8 minutes. The second week, I operated with a watch in view at every station to keep the train on its schedule.
Ah, so it's not just my imagination that the IRT doesn't have this obsession with proper scheduling. The result is obvious. It's no wonder the IRT is always so crowded.
As for the B, it was time for it to leave. In two sentences, you've made one train early and one train late, just so you wouldn't have to sit on a train
The B could have left half a minute late (if that much -- it's not like it pulled out the moment it got the green) or it could have left at the same time as the N that was holding us up already (their paths don't cross).
Priority should be given to bringing waiting trains into stations over sticking blindly to the schedule. Because of the long wait to enter the station, I just missed a departing D. If somebody absolutely must wait, at least let it be at a station.
Just guessing here: if you're ideas had been in use and you either a) missed your N because it left early or b)were late for an appointment because your B left late, then you would still be complaining about the schedule. Correct?
Not at all. I don't plan my subway trips around the precise scheduling of trains. (I don't know of anyone who does.) If I look at the schedule at all, it's to get a rough idea of headways or running times. I get to my station as quickly as possible, board the train as soon as possible, and make whatever transfers I need to make as quickly as possible. I plan on expresses being faster than locals. I plan on being allowed off my train expediently when it reaches its terminal -- not being forced to wait indefinitely for other trains to move around.
If I just missed the N, well, that's life -- we all just miss trains once in a while. I don't think I'd even notice if my B were delayed half a minute to let an N squeeze through -- it's not like I know precisely when the train is supposed to leave.
>>>>>>>>Two weeks ago, on Sunday, I was on a Manhattan-bound J, running express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy. It's a joyfully quick express run until the red signal before Myrtle. Wait, wait, wait -- okay, a Metro-bound M pulls out in our path -- fine. Wait, wait, wait some more -- what's going on? Ah, that's it, they're sending a Myrtle-bound M in our path. Wait for the M to discharge and pull ahead to relay. Finally, the signal turns green. What compelled the tower to keep us waiting for not one but two M's?
The J was ahead of schedule, thus it could be held for a while. I don't need to tell you why a connection from the Myrtle-bound M was made do I?
>>>>>>>>>>>Fast forward to this past Sunday. The Stillwell-bound N is running express on the B. Approaching Stillwell, we have to wait a few minutes for a track to clear out. The track clears out but the signal remains red. A few minutes later a B crosses our path. After that, we go. Couldn't the track be cleared before our train arrived? And once we had been kept waiting already, couldn't the tower let our N squeeze in before letting the B out?
Again, the N is ahead of schedule. Trains that are currently on time get priority over trains running early, or extra trains.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On to today, around 11:30 in the morning. A to 207th. First we're held (with no announcements) between 190th and Dyckman. We stop briefly at Dyckman (where a SB R44 passes) and we're held again between Dyckman and 207th. (Oh, how I enjoy being held in a hot and otherwise empty R44 car between stations, where my only means of communication with anyone else is via the emergency brake, which is unfortunately not what I wanted to communicate at the time.) An announcement informs us that we're being held due to congestion. (Congestion on the midday A?!) Another R44 passes and we pull into 207th, where yet another R44 is sleeping on one track. Who allowed the sleeping train to hog up platform space that was obviously needed for revenue service when there's a perfectly good express track at Dyckman? (That's where it moved a few minutes later.) Incidentally, that means at least four A's in a row consisted of R44's (the following one had R38's; I don't know about the preceding one).
How about the fact that one of the A trains that was ahead of you was laid up on arrival at 207?
>>>>>>>>>>An hour or two later, another A (R38 this time around) to 42nd. At 72nd we pass a C. Approaching 59th, we stop -- both tracks ahead are occupied. The B pulls out. The D is held to connect with the C we had just passed. We're stuck waiting in the tunnel. I realize that if the B and D pull out together, one of them is forced to wait in the tunnel, but isn't it better to have one train waiting in the tunnel and everyone else proceeding on their merry ways than to have one train waiting in the tunnel and another waiting in a station?
The B and D CANNOT leave together. They use the same track south of 59 Street.
These were not difficult questions. Trains are not held needlessly, there's usually a reason for it. The only exception being when the dispatcher is inept. But that was not the case with any of these examples.
The J was ahead of schedule, thus it could be held for a while. I don't need to tell you why a connection from the Myrtle-bound M was made do I?
Of course the J was ahead of schedule -- it was running express. Why aren't schedules adjusted for GOs that send trains express?
We were stuck behind the station for about five minutes so the M could make its connection. This was on a Sunday afternoon, when headways aren't terribly high. If our J had pulled in first, the M passengers wouldn't have had a long wait for the next J and we would have been well on our way.
Again, the N is ahead of schedule. Trains that are currently on time get priority over trains running early, or extra trains.
The N schedule should be fixed. (It certainly wasn't very close to its leader when I boarded at 42nd. I watched many trains go by while waiting for an R32 N.) Again, this probably has something to do with the bypassed stations in Manhattan. Fix the schedule.
How about the fact that one of the A trains that was ahead of you was laid up on arrival at 207?
But why was it laid up in the station and not on the express track south of the station? It moved there anyway, eventually -- why not move it there right away, before it interferes with incoming revenue service? It delayed at least two incoming trains.
The B and D CANNOT leave together. They use the same track south of 59 Street.
I know they can't get very far, but can't they both at least pull out of 59th?
The real problem is that the B and D were allowed to arrive at 59th togeether. If scheduling is used for anything, shouldn't it be used to avoid that? Hold the B at 145th for two more minutes and let the C go by first, or something -- then the C would have met or just missed the D and the B would have met the A I was on, and nobody would have to wait for anyone.
When trains lay-up, they begin the process in the station. Train arrives; people get off; doors close; TO walks through the train to make sure no one is still onboard; train charges; waits for line-up; leaves. Sometimes during the course of this, other trains arrive and have to wait. Go watch Van Cortlandt M-F from about 10:00am on, where you can watch arrivals, departures and see the next station at the same time.
How long does this process generally take? The midday A runs at ten-minute headways or thereabouts (although it seemed to have somewhat shorter headways when I was there) -- I'm surprised it's necessary to hold up two incoming trains to get everything done.
Just for laughs and giggles ... go up in a train in the lead car. Futz around for about a minute and a half to simulate the time it takes to pull your handles, throw your switches and lock the cab. Then walk to the other end. Add about a minute to rustle folks out of the cars who don't want a personal yard tour ... you'll get an idea of how long it takes to do a final walk before you can do a layup. I know from having done it in the "rapid transit" days that it can easily kill off ten minutes ... there's hell to pay if you unintentionally layup the geese along with the train. :)
>>>>Why aren't schedules adjusted for GOs that send trains express?
Sometimes it works the other way too when trains operate local, but the regular schedule remains. A supplement schedule should be drawn up, but more often than not it isn't.
As far as express trains go, it's just easier to let a train sit in a station (or outside of one in this case) and let the schedule catch up.
Usually with the N, they use a supplement schedule when running express Manhattan-bound since holding an N train could affect other services.
>>>>>I know they can't get very far, but can't they both at least pull out of 59th?
Nope. The merge begins immediately upon departure at 59 Street.
The southbound N/R is still skipping local stops between 34th and Canal but now it's running on the local track. The express track is occupied by sleeping R's.
The Queensbridge shuttle is running R32's on the express track, terminating on the southbound track at 34th. The route is given as "Shuttle" in large print rather than the usual S-in-a-circle. Presumably, it's bypassing 49th, despite indications in the GO bulletin.
Oh, and while I was waiting at 42nd for an N with a railfan window, an R40 pulled in in the opposite direction with an upside-down yellow B-in-a-circle showing. I did get a picture, but I've had mixed success with flash-free photography underground.
I spent quite a bit of time hanging out on the CPW line today. I saw and rode on a few C's, but they were all running R38's. I didn't see a single R32 until I went over to Broadway. I thought the C was mostly R32's. Am I wrong? (This isn't a complaint. The R38's are more friendly to short people like myself and are somewhat more attractive.)
R38's run on the C along with some on the A. There aren't any R32's on the C.
Of course the C runs R-32s! What do you think Pitkin yard's R-32 Phase Is ran on? Plus the 8 R-32 GEs! Sometimes it seems rare to find R-38s on the C and I get mostly R-32s, it's just luck of the draw.
Remember when the E and C combined for two weeks last February? How do you think they managed to end up with only 10 R-38 cars on the E?(sometimes as a whole train, sometimes mixed).
Went I operatered on the "C" on Monday all I got were R32's. I missed the AC R38's by one train. I think that was the closes to an R38's I had all day.
Robert
Well I rarely see R32's on the C, must've been just luck I guess. I ride the C very little I guess to know. R38's and R32 do look somewhat alike, maybe I got them confused.
So why do you persist in making 'stupid', irrisponsible, unsubstantiated and indefensible statements that are not supported by anything that even slightly resembles a fact?
Why don't you post things that you are sure about like: "Ernie sleeps on the left side of the bed and Burt is on the right". I'm sure if you keep guessing at subway stuff, you may eventually get one right - eventually. Instead, why not shut up, listen and learn?
@ they are in the overhaul shops in coney island?? & other overhaul shops ???.......................hmmmm....................!
At the present time, the Pitkin R32's (A/C lines all Phase I) are being cycled thru CI main shop for SMS and new floors. This would account for a smaller number of R32's availiable for service on the A/C lines.
I rode the 1 to 242nd and back down today (around noon) in an attempt to get in a ride on the express track, as per the GO, but all trains ran local. Track work was going on, but instead of running SB trains express, we crawled by the workers.
Okay, while answering another post something hit me: We're loosing our car diversity. Here's what I mean:
<- Recent Past ->
R12,14,15,17,21,22 --> R62/a
R10,11/34,16,27 --> R68/a
R30 --> Nothing
<- Present ->
R26,28,29,33ML,33WF,36ML,36WF --> R142/a
nothing --> R143
<- Future ->
R38,40,40M,42,44 --> R160/a
Remaining redbirds --> Next IRT
What does all this leave us with? In early 1980s, there were 13 major A division and 12 B division car classes roaming about.
In the future, we'll have 3 A division and 5 B division classes.
Good for the TA (less to teach maintenance crews, less diversity of parts, less diversity to instruct crews on), bad for those who like variety.
The problem is that you're assuming that all of these car classes were the same.
The R-12 and R-14 were identical, so were the R-21 and R-22 and R-27 and R-30. So ARE all of the Redbirds except for the R-36s (but wow is that so much of a change!), the R-40M and R-42 and R-44 and R-46.
And how much of a difference does an end window make? Add the R-16s and R-21s/22s to the "Redbird" pile, and the R-16 to the R-27/30 pile.
Also, you forgot that the R-62 and R-62A are different, at least from your perspective.
A REALISTIC APPROACH:
There were 4 IRT classes replaced by 2
There were 8 IND/BMT car classes replaced by 4
Cross division the R-142s will look just like the R-143 and R-160, the R-62 and R-68 are similar, so are the "Redbird" group and the R-16 to R-30 group (which we will hereby call the midcentury lookalike streak).
The R40M and R42 are alike only in front end. Otherwise, the R40M is just like the R40, which is quite different from the R42.
The R62 and R68 aren't terribly similar, either -- if they were, I'd find the R62 unpleasant, and I don't.
There is still the R40M with the R40slant storm door on the #2 end around. I like looking for them, shows the history.
Either way, it has features of both. So the R-40M should not be classified as different as long as there is BOTH an R-40S and R-42.
Along those lines, I've always wanted to see cars scattered all over. Take the D, for instance -- wouldn't it be nice to occasionally see a Slant, or an R32, or an R46, or an [insert your favorite car type here]? Or if you're one of that strange breed of hippo fans, wouldn't you just love to see an R68 rumbling out to the Rockaways? Maybe an occasional R42 to Bay Ridge? An R38 on the Franklin shuttle?
It would also stop the fights on the IRT. Everyone would get a nice mix of Redbird, R62(A), and R142(A).
Of course, that wouldn't be practical systemwide, since each yard only holds a few car types -- but why is there no variety within the lines served by each yard?
Actually, for great diversity of car types, my preference would be for the BMT of the late 1950s. In those days, car types included not only Standards and Triplexes, but some real oddballs:
* Ex-SIRT cars (Culver and West End)
* Former IRT Low-Vs (Franklin and Culver shuttles)
* Multi-Sections (Myrtle-Chambers)
* Gate cars (later Q-types, Myrtle Ave. El)
* A few pre-war IND cars (R-1s, I believe, 4th Ave. Local)
* R-16s (Jamaica line)
It's too bad that the C-types, Bluebirds, and the Zephyr didn't make it into the late 50s to add to the mix.
In those days, the IND was pretty boring (all look alike R-1-9s, except for the R-10s on the A line, and the R-10s just looked like an updated version of the R-1-9s).
The IRT was a bit more interesting in those days. The Flusing line had R-12/14s and R-15s, and the Manhattan lines were newer cars on the locals (1, 6 had R17-22 cars), while the express lines had mostly look-alike low-Vs, with some WF cars on the Seventh Ave. express lines.
-- Ed Sachs
Over the last few years I have been conferring with some of my fellow dinosaurs about interest in history among those of us now in our teens and twenties.
My brother lived and worked at several universities through the '80s and noted that many of the students seemed uninterested in history--which was defined as anything that happened before they were born. Any question might be answered with "Dunno, man. Before my time."
When I was a kid me and my railfan buddies were very interested in what came before--things we never saw, like the Manhattan els or Brooklyn trolleys already disappeared. I loved talking to an old timer who remembered horsecars. Now, there seems like there's a lot less interest. Maybe it's because transit's future is brighter than it was 40 years, so there's more to look forward to.
Anyway, my question (please ID your general age group from 10-100) is: if you heard that a good transit writer could put out only ONE of the following books--they were all equally nice and the same price, which would you be inclined to buy:
The Brighton Line in Steam Days
New York and Brooklyn Elevateds Before the Dual Contracts
New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30's
Redbird Heaven--Car Designs of Reggie Welch in the '50s and '60s
Hippos I Have Loved--the R68 Book
Train to the Future--R142s and Beyond
Substitute any particular subject matter (like Sea Beach for Brighton or "Lines" for "Cars")--I'm really trying to figure out what era people of a given age are interested in.
If you have too much free time, rate each of these books relatively to each other (1st, 2nd, 3rd...) or on a scale of 1 to 10 or whatever.
If no one responds, that will really answer my question.
1. New York Transit at its Height
2. New York and Brooklyn Els
3. The Brighton Line in Steam Days
1)Hippos I Have Loved--the R68 Book
2)Train to the Future--R142s and Beyond
3)New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30's
4)New York and Brooklyn Elevateds Before the Dual Contracts
5)Redbird Heaven--Car Designs of Reggie Welch in the '50s and '60s
6)The Brighton Line in Steam Days
I'm 45
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm in the 50-60 group and my own morbid fascination is the 6th, 9th, 2nd and 3rd avenue els ... particularly the interchanges between including side trips over the Queensborough. Alas, I wouldn't recommend a whole book on that. I'm probably the only one who'd be interested. :)
Anyway, my question (please ID your general age group from 10-100) is: if you heard that a good transit writer could put out only ONE of the following books--they were all equally nice and the same price, which would you be inclined to buy:
New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30's
Definitely my #1 choice. I'm in the 40 - 50 age group.
If I could make an addition, I'd be interested in a book describing the system's darkest days in the 1970's and early 1980's, I suppose as a contrast to the 1930's.
I'd be willing to be interviewed for a paragraph or three on the adventures of falling metal in the deferred maintenance days. I'm sure Uncle Ed would be good for a few more ...
You missed the Graffiti Era.
I'd go for a book covering the 80's, 70's, and 60's, in that order of preference. Like the R46, I date from 1974. (Haven't been overhauled yet. Maybe I'll get electronic signs one day.) I guess that means that I'm most interested in reading up on what I neglected to see during my own lifetime and immediately before it. Don't get me wrong, though -- I'm interested in just about all of your topics.
David, you're the second to mention the graffiti era. I sort of assumed that there would be not much interest in a recent era when (graffiti or not) the system was in shambles.
Another possible answer I missed (but no one's mentioned--yet) is "None of the above. If I've got two nickels to rub rogether, I'm spending it riding and photographing today's system." Anyone?
Actually, you might have an interesting angle there (and possible promotion of what's written by the MTA) if it was done on a basis of "long spiral to doom and then the happy ending - the salvation of a system that almost died" ... taking it from its proud past through its descent into the toilet, followed by "Ain't the MTA *swell*? Look at what they brought back from the abyss" ... and with elections just around the corner, it'd sell even if it was a pander piece ...
An interesting premise though ...
I'm also interested in that 60's-80's period. I was born in 1970 and lived until I was 21 on 206th St and Perry ave; I could roll out of bed and onto the d-train. As a small child I remembered an el running along Webster Ave and then being removed;nobody cdould give me a definitive answer as to what train ran on it until I found this website. My grandfather work the token booths in the 70's and I used to have the old maps from that time. I'd love to find a history of the route changes (by letter and number as I have grown up to know them) I am reading "Under the Siedewalks of New York" by Brian Cudahy and all it says is the street it ran under nopt the letters or numbers.
I lived on 204th and Webster, directly across from Honark's Pigway and next to Fusco trucking ... that was the mighty third avenue El (also known as the IRT #8 train) and was one hell of a ride until they knocked it down. You'll be pleased to know that the Norwood piece of the line over Mosholu really made them WORK to take it down - it resisted nearly every effort. :)
Yeah, I remember, after they took it down, all these big "footprints" left for years on Webster Ave. in mute testimony to what was there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, for an el that was torn down because it was "rickety" that sucker refused to give it up when the torches came to keep their promise. Especially up Webster from the Fordham wye, that thing was more solid than any of the other "IRT els" ... it refused to go. Wonder if they ever got the trolley tracks up from under the pavement (Webster was originally cobblestone with VERY thick rails embedded) ... they had to keep coming back and repaving Webster because the rails kept busting up the asphalt to pook through every two years or so. :)
About 15/20 years ago they completely rebuilt Webster, took it all the way down to the dirt (curbs were 2 feet high at this point). So I think it's safe to say that the trolley tracks are history.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. It FIGURES it would have taken that much to do it. That seriously amuses me since it proves all the naysayers wrong who said all that stuff was old, obsolete and disfunctional. I love it when history bites naysayers on the ass. :)
Sounds like Neptune Ave in Brooklyn before it was redone, too.
--Mark
Yeah, it's amazing how durable "rickety" was until we came to accept the standards of modern construction. What I'm waiting to see now is plastic els ... and you just KNOW someone's gonna do it somewhere. Those old trolley tracks and their underlayment were QUITE impressive.
Two nickels? More like 30, plus the cost of the film.
I do ride and photograph also. My photographs tend toward the unusual -- a signage error here, a rerouted train there. They also tend toward the outdoors, since when I abide by the rules underground and turn off the flash I frequently end up with a blur. (I'll admit, I have broken the rules from time to time -- never in the presence of an oncoming train, generally in a passageway or on a platform with no trains nearby.)
Ever notice the dates of the photos on this site? There are lots from the 60's, lots from the early 70's, and lots from the late 90's through the present. There's effectively a gap of two decades. I realize the system was in bad shape then and nobody wanted to photograph it, but now we have little documentation of those dark days.
You'd love my news article collection. It starts roughly 1976 or so. Right through to the prsent (and still collecting :)
--Mark
How would you like to scan it, or at least its highlights, and post it on a web page?
Scanning the actual articles would take me 1,000 years :)
Seriously, there are clear copyright issues I'd probably infringe upon.
But a summary of them ... never thought of that.
--Mark
Here's the kind of history I like, Are you guys following pro-basketball? Probably not since your Knicks had their usual pratfall this spring. But look at our Lakers. They're making history, real history. I almost gave up on them earlier but when I went to see them play the Celtics on Derek Fisher's first game back I got the feeling that things were going to improve. Repeat anyone?
Most likely, because the Eastern Teams that are left do not have that experience , most likely next year
IANAL, but I think posting highlights would fall under the fair use provision. Posting everything -- yeah, I guess there's a copyright problem there. My guess is that most of the copyright holders would gladly give permission, but asking each and every one of them is a hassle I'm not about to ask you to go through.
(I had the Manhattan bus and subway maps from a 1983 Michelin guide book posted on my web page for a while. Yes, I even got permission. Then, in January, my host suddenly vanished, along with the only copy of most of my files. Ah, well -- maybe one of these days I'll get them back.)
1.Train to the Future--R142s and Beyond
2.New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30's
I'm also interested in construction methods, how stations and subways evolved over time ("where did that door go?", Places where you can see how things were, the TSQ shuttle is a good example) and things like unbuilt lines and provisions (2nd system, etc).
I'm 19
I'd love to see detailed station histories, with full floor plans. For instance: IRT station opened whenever, IND station opened whenever, stations connected whenever, extraneous underpass sealed whenever, station rehabbed whenever -- all with floor plans. Photographs too, if possible.
I'm in my mid 30's and I'd pick "Hippos I Have Loved-The R-68 Book"
Wayne
My preference:
New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30's
New York and Brooklyn Elevateds Before the Dual Contracts (funny, that's my first installment in the BMT history series I'm writing for this site)
Train to the Future--R142s and Beyond
The Brighton Line in Steam Days The Brighton Line in Steam Days
Redbird Heaven--Car Designs of Reggie Welch in the '50s and '60s
Hippos I Have Loved--the R68 Book
Funny, the Brighton Line is one of my faves, but I don't have that much of an interest in Steam Locomotion .....
I'm 39.
--Mark
My preference:
1. New York Transit at Its Height
2. New York and Brooklyn Elevateds
3. Redbird Heaven
4. Brighton Line in Steam Days
5. Train to the Future
6. Hippos - the R68 Book
I envision a lavish coffee table book for New York Transit at Its Height, in the horizontal 11 x 8.5 format with as many color photographs as possible, and a Berenice Abbott photo on the dust jacket (under the Bowery el?). Conduit cars in Manhattan, gate cars on Brooklyn's el, City Hall loop on the IRT, and the brand new IND subway. There's plenty of source material out there.
I'm in the dinosaur age group.
1. New York Transit at its Height
2. New York and Brooklyn Els
3. The Culver Line in Steam Days (I grew up near McDonald Ave and remember the SBK running down the street)
Would actually prefer something on how the subways/els affected the areas where they were built. Age 39.
"Cars of the BMT". That was one book I loved. I got to see all those Standards and Triplexes displayed. Although I was never a fan of the B's, those D Triplexes were the soul of my subway life when I was a kid. A #4 on the Sea Beach and a #1 on the Brighton quickened my pulse. There was a book called "The Sea Beach Express" written in the 1950's I believe, but it is out of print and I could never get a copy. I'd love to read that book since you can tell by my handle that I'm Mr. Sea Beach Fred.
Paul....It would have to be:
NY Transit at its Height-the thirties
I am 58.
Carl M.
Well, I'm in my 30s, and my biggest area of interest would be
the Brooklyn AND Manhattan systems from the steam era to the Dual
Contracts. The system from 1904 onward has been done to death,
and how can you write a history of the R68 or the R142 when it
is still in service?
how can you write a history of the R68 or the R142 when it
is still in service?
Those potential books were included to give folks an opportunity to say that they want to see contemporary stuff as books.
And looky--the R68 got some votes!
Heavy Hippos Have Happy Helpers.
You might want to qualify your survey with a little questionaire:
1) What is your age?
2) How much $$$ did you spend in 2000 on railfan books, photos, etc.
3) Which of the following appliances do you own:
a) microwave oven b) brake handle c) cutting key d) Lo-V
e) adult toy
4) If you circled (e) above, what is the power source?
a) 4 AA batteries b) 120/208 VAC c) 600VDC d) 25kVAC
5) Which of the following sounds can you imitate?
a) old-style R44 ding-dong b) R-9 electric brake release
c) PCCs rounding a tight curve d) messed up R142 announcements
Paul: Do you or anyone out there for that matter know of a book called "The Sea Beach Express"? It was written in the 1950's I believe and I have seen it advertized somewhere. I don't remember the author but his name was Italian. Boy, would I love to get my hands on that book, but one thing I do know is that it is out of print.
Maybe I'm think of a totally different book, but I seem to recall a book called "Sea Beach Express" that was a children's book and don't know whether it had to be with the BMT line or not.
Fred, is it possible that you are thinking of "The Sea Beach to Coney Island"? It was written by William W. Fausser of Mineola, New York in 1979 and is evidently self published. It is paperbound, 8 1/2 x 11, illustrated and with several maps. It covers the steam era, early electrification, and construction of the cut, with lots of fascinating photographs.
No George, that is not the book I was thinking about, but the one you brought up is a later edition and I would love to buy it. Is it still in print and who would have it? I would buy it in a minute.
You're getting warm Jeffer because I can see the Triplex Sea Beach trains in your history making their storied appearance. Good for you and the hell with the IRT anyway because that has been worked to death. Again let me state tha IRT has its place but compared to the BMT it's small potatoes. No ax to grind here, just my opinion. Try this. The IRT opened up on October 27, 1904. I was born on October 27, 1940. Therefore I should be a big IRT fan right? Well I'm not.
I think most of our favorite rail items relate to our growing up years and where we lived. My first impressions were made by the IRT as I knew it; to give an honest opinion technology wise the BMT was far ahead of the IRT...they moved ahead rapidly and the IRT for the most part remained static but maybe that's why I loved it. I agree, it has been done to death.
As for the rail systems themselves in comparison the BMT offered a lot more history too, but that's another story.
Allright Big Ed!!!! Where the hell have you been. I haven't heard from you in awhile. Stay on board more often, will you? As far as the BMT that was definately my first love.
Oh I miss a few days every couple of weeks..or some days have nothing to offer. Had to go back to see my new ambassador in Bismarck ND, the war hasn't ended there yet.Hopefully the treaty will be signed June 29 and there will be no more reparations. Enjoyed most of a Greyhound ride.Oh well, that or drive.
I'll vote for a book on the PCC era in Brooklyn and a more complete book on the Third Avenue Railway. Subway and elevated-wise, I'd read one on the system in the Thirties, especially on the IND second system plans.
I have a special fondness for the PCC cars and for the Third Avenue Railway (especially TARS 629, as my friends at Branford will attest), and half-finished stations fascinate me, hence my interest in these areas. Age-wise, I'm a relatively young grandfather... older in spirit than in chronology (44).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll vote for a book on the PCC era in Brooklyn..
The "PCC Era in Brooklyn"-- [ pause for l-o-o-o-n-n-g- sigh ].
"Began in earnest in 1936. The BMT was a leader in the traction industry and proponent of modern technology. With PCC technology the BMT hoped to build a fleet of streetcars and second-generation elevated equipment sharing a common base of parts and maintenance."
"Strangled by the City of New York in 1940. Last remnants stamped out by 1956."
I'm not sure there were enough PCCs to really make an "era"--there were only the 100. I don't know all the routes they served on, but I believe they were on Smith-Coney Island, 7th Avenue and Erie Basin in the early days and, of course, ended their lives on Church, McDonald and Coney Island.
A much more interesting "might-have-been" than the IND Second System, IMO.
here's another idea. how about a book of the maps over the years showing the evolution of the system over the time. I wonder if Michael Adler would get behind that.
Better yet, why not take all the topics thrown out and all the maps and put them in a TIME/LIFE 5 volume set....call it something like "THE NEW YORK UNDERGROUND" or something like that.
Oddly enough, I'm working on a piece right now for Branford's
newsletter, entitled "Brooklyn: The Cradle of a Modern Streetcar".
It focuses more, though, on the development of the PCC and the
role that the BMT played.
Here's my NYC choices:
The Brighton Line in Steam Days
New York and Brooklyn Elevateds Before the Dual Contracts
New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30's
I'd like to see Brooklyn Els in steam days.
I was around in the 1950's - 1960's, living in BTC's carhouses when not at home/school, traveling to DC, Philly, New York, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and other points west. Riding PCC's, Peter Witts, Hi & Lo-V's, Standards, MUDC's on the el's, Electroliners, North Shore's Steel speedsters, GG-1's and MP-54's on the Pennsy, as well as PRR steam on the Long Branch in 1957-58. My father was a "closet railfan, and actually enjoyed taking me and some of my railfan buddies to Philly in the late 1950's.
It's been a long, strange trip and a fun ride so far - I wanna go back to those halycon days.
I would prefer your book examples in the following order, including one addition of my own:
The Brighton Line in Steam DaysThe farther back one goes, the more different things get. Which is why my first entry is the oldest. In addition, I am most interested (right now) in what Brooklyn was like back then. I am currently into buying 19th Century maps on eBay.Beneath The Streets in the Days of DiscoHaving been born in 1982, this is the era that I just missedNew York and Brooklyn Elevateds Before the Dual Contracts New York Transit at its Height--The Sytem in the 30'sThe above two follow chronologically from the first oneHippos I Have Loved--the R68 BookI can experience the present now, I don't need to read about it in a book.Redbird Heaven--Car Designs of Reggie Welch in the '50s and '60sI just don't like the boring car designs of Reggie Welch. The R-40 helped pull us out of that abyss. In any case, if this book is about the history of the era in general, I'd put it higher.Train to the Future--R142s and BeyondNobody can predict the future, a book about the future in a nonfiction category is stupid. I'd prefer to experience the R-142s first hand. I can read about them in 2050 once they're completely gone.
I'm 9,774,973 minutes old
You didn't tell us we had to measure our age in years.
Ah, you encourage me, Pork, although I ordinarily only respond to people who are at least 10,000,000 minutes old. Very good feedback.
If you want to find out what Brooklyn was really like pre-1900, get a copy of "Of Cabbages and Kings County," by Marc Linder andLawrence S. Zacharias. Not a great deal of transit in it, but it tells the story of how Kings County rapidly absorbed its neighboring towns and changed from farmland to urban and suburban.
However, I strongly suggest you try to see it at a public library first. It is an academic work--by this I mean it is well-researched (though I disagree with much of the thrust of their sociopolitical arguing) but it is dry, dry, dry. It is even tough sledding for me, and I usually thrive on dry academic works.
Any maps there? Maps are my primary love.
I always read books in the library. I buy them if I feel I might ever want to read it again.
Any maps there? Maps are my primary love.
I should rephrase that and get rid of the word love, it's too wierd.
I have other interests too, this is my favorite one closest to transit.
But then you know that I'm wierd already.
Well, psychologists tell us you can't really love something that's incapable of loving you back. However, when you have a passion for an intellectual pursuit, the thrill you get at savoring a fine example of your chosen field of interest is not entirely unlike the more human sort.
For some people it's seeing a great work of art. For some it's finding a fine coin with a certain mint mark. For others it's photos or maps. So if you're weird, you're not alone.
But no, the one map I can think of in "Cabbages" is not great and even somewhat inaccurate. You have to enjoy it for the knowledge you will gain from reading it, absorbing it, and rereading it. Speaking for myself, it was work reading it (and rereading parts), but after I had absorbed it all, I feel I have a much better understanding of the rather singular background of Brooklyn's urbanization.
Have you seen the 1882 Colton Map of western L.I. Though not detailed, it is a good map of the arrangement of towns in preConsolidation Kings County.
Have you seen the href="http://rapidtransit.com/net/thirdrail/0104/images/map_colton82_1.jpg">1882
Colton Map of western L.I. Though not detailed, it is a good map of the
arrangement of towns in preConsolidation Kings County.
Yes I have, I even posted a link once of it for the very purpose of showing preconsolidation towns. It doesn't get into good enough detail to show exact locations of borders, but I recently bought a map of Brooklyn from before the acquisition of Flatbush, Flatlands, New Utrecht and Gravesend. I haven't received it yet. Search for items bid on by BOARshevik.
But then you know that I'm wierd already.
This is true... especially in the way you spell weird :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
especially in the way you spell weird
Please. I finally got my kids used to "i" before "e" except after "c" or words with sound of "a" such as "neighbor" and "weigh."
And then "weird" comes along. How do I add that to the rhyme?
Paul: Every time I come to that word or others like it I run for the dictionary. They get trickier the older we get.
You don't. They're just going to have to memorize some forms.
Perhaps I should be posting this on BusTalk, but the version of the rhyme I invariably remembered in my youth went like this:
'i' before 'e'
except after 'c'
Use center door for exit.
Thank you.
I think I rode the bus a bit too much back then.
Hey, I was taught that one, too! :)
--Mark
I've been away so can anyone tell me as of today how mant sets of the r142's are running on the #2 line? What's the schedule to get the others in service?
As of now, there are three trainsets of R142's on the road right now. It looks a different trainset comes out every week.
As of now, there are three trainsets of R142's on the road right now. It looks like a different trainset comes out every week.
The three sets are 6301-10, 6326-35, and 6421-30. 6411-20 is being prepared for service....
By the way, did you know a delivery was performed recently? Someone snuck 6576-80 into the East (180th St) and they were out and moving around on the Yard Lead yesterday.
-Stef
I wonder if they would be out today. There is a GO job on the 2 today where it is coming out of Utica and there is a shuttle from Flatbush to Atlantic. Ill see what happens.........
6411-20 were out today doing simulated runs on the 5. I wonder if they're ready to put an R-142 Train on the 5?
-Stef
not yet. probably around september. right now they are focusing on getting them back on the 2.
From what I've heard there are about 2 or 3 on the road. The others are up at 180th doing nothing. They've been having brake problems, and I heard on the radio the other day that the cars might either be sent back to the Bombardier plant, or Bombardier engineers might come here.
those cars that came down sitting in unionport are next on line to get the breaking fixed. there are a few R-142A's sitting in there with the same problem of breaking.
The first ten cars, 6301-6310 are back in service as are 6326-6335. During the last two days, I was fortunate enough to have ridden on them. They seem to be running very well. Stef posted that 6421-6430 are also in service and I saw these in service too. Until this past Thursday and Friday, I had not ridden on the Bombardier R142s since early January. It is good to see the R142s back in service and I hope to see more of them come into service and take many more rides on them. 6301-10 and 6326-35 had no trouble coming to a stop at each station. I hope the brakes were the last major bug in the fleet and now we can see them all start going into service at last.
don't worry it was the one and only glitch. btw, 6311-20 came back out to play. next is 6411-20. the new sets that have been delivered are problem free and are scheduled to come in later (they already had their flaws taken cared of before they left Plattsburgh)
When and where they are going to test the r143's
Jamaica Bay Flats Race Way and Wild Life Refugee. Scenicly located near JFK aerodrome. For your dining pleasure and conveince , please try some of the local establishments on Crossbay Blvd.
avid
1) Near Future
2) Canarsie (L) Line
This is a common question.
Shawn.
I say "possibly" because the movie's just opening today and I obviously haven't seen it yet. Not that I have even the slightest iota of desire to see it. Anyway, a (very bad) review in today's Wall Street Journal decribes a scene that sounds mighty blooperish to me.
The scene is a sappy, break-out-the-violins lovers' farewell at Grand Central Terminal, or more accurately at Los Angeles Union Station standing in for Grand Central. The reviewer describes the billowing steam from locomotives enveloping the tragic lovers. How stupid of me, I had been thinking all along that steam and diesel locomotives were banned from electric-only GCT!
Heh. I guess we should just be grateful that the NY Central wasn't running those Toronto subway cars that seem to be in every movie. :)
>>> a (very bad) review in today's Wall Street Journal <<<
Whatever else can be said about the movie "Pearl Harbor", come Oscar time, the publicist certainly deserves an award. It has been impossible to avoid the hype.
Tom
I want to say that in the ads I see in the backdrop a Burlington Zephyr train. You can't see the whole train at all, I just infer it's a Zephyr from the font of the writing on the side of the train. It flashes by pretty quickly, and its hard to catch.
I hope they don't show one of those pulling out of Grand Central!
Mark
Is it just me or should have this movie been released about 6 months ago? People should be gearing up for Operation Barberosa Day, not stuck remembering Pearl Harbour Day. That's like trying to celebrate Christmas in July.
But not steam-heated railroad coaches. Unless you heard a steam whistle.
I've heard that they depict MOUNTAINS on Long Island.
-Hank
I've heard that they depict MOUNTAINS on Long Island.
My wife just dragged me to see it (it's her birthday), and yes you are correct. The shot has a big sign saying "Mitchell Field" (in today's Uniondale), and there are mountains in the background. D'OH!
It was a pretty sappy movie, but it had its moments.
:-) Andrew
For some reason, moviemakers always use a generic steam train on any movie set back in time, regardless of the actual equipment used.
Steam never ran into GCT, or Penn. But mainline diesel power was a novelty back then (The New haven, of course had their Alcos..), and everyone forgets that electrics ran into NY back then too....
Basically, any train that's pre 1960 in the movies is steam, regardless of what it really was.
I'm sure they showed the scene being on a low level platform too. GCT never had those either.
What do expect from Hollywood? They think the LA way of life is the way the whole world is....
For some reason, moviemakers always use a generic steam train on any movie set back in time, regardless of the actual equipment used.
Basically, any train that's pre 1960 in the movies is steam, regardless of what it really was.
And not just movies set in the past. 1997's The Peacemaker, set in contemporary Russia, showed the military using a steam locomotive on a train transporting atomic warheadss.
It's just another sappy Hollyweird movie whose producers have shown themselves to have NO BALLS because they want to be 'politically correct' by supplying different scenes to the foreign release of 'Pearl Harbor' (For those not 'in-the-know', the producer/director, Michael Bay, was advised to do over some scenes where derogatory dialogue was used to describe the Japanese and/or Germans).
BMTman
>>> It's just another sappy Hollyweird movie <<<
More and more reviewers seem to agree with you. A much better film on the subject of the Pearl Harbor attack was "Tora! Tora! Tora!" (1970). That film left out the soap opera and provided an interesting history lesson.
Tom
Tora Tora Tora was a great movie, but being a romantic I kind of liked the movie I saw today. My wife did, too. The worst part of it from a historian's standpoint was the pathetic declaration of war speech given by the yo yo who played FDR. It was flat and boring and had no pizaaz at all. Roosevelt's speech on December 8, 1941 was full of pathos.
Doug: My wife and I saw the movie today and if what you say is true then that's unadulturated bullshit on Hollywood's part. But let me tell you something. If you are emotional like I am you could get plenty mad watching the attack and our boys dieing. I was cussing under my breath and sometimes not under by breath, calling those little sneaky dorks Jap rat bastards, even though everyone of Japanese ancentry I know out here are great people. Your blood can really get up. As a history teacher I do know that today Japan and Germany are allies and maybe Hollywood wanted to avoid insulting them. Not that I agree with that. It was war and they were no good and got what they deserved, but political correctness seems to be in play today and they want all of us to get with the program. If you say to hell with that you can rest assured that you have one partner-in-crime who thinks the same way.
I haven't seen the movie yet (yes, I will go see it, if only to see how little of the movie deals with Pearl Harbor, a la "Titanic") but it's my understanding from people who've seen it that in the train station scene in question, an Amtrak loco is visible in the background through a train window. And not just any Amtrak loco (c'mon, you COULD pass off a Swedish meatball as Art Deco design) but a clearly modern Genesis! Oooops!
Of course. The railroad station scenes were done at Los Angeles Union Station. Amtrak Genesis units show up there on a daily basis on the Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited, and Coast Starlight.
The producers are lucky a Metrolink F59PHI didn't come wheeling through!!!
I saw 'Pearl Harbor' over the weekend and picked up on yet another blooper -- a scene had the two romantic leads spending an evening together where they take a dingy out to the docks, with the oceanliner Queen Mary is berthed. We see the mighty ship in her famous color scheme of white, black and red, with her name visible on the side. Problem with that is the Queen Mary was used as a troup carrier during WWII in the European conflict and was painted battleship grey (for camoflage against German U-boats). Even her name was covered over in grey paint. She was merely filmed 'as is' over at Long Beach California where she currently resides as a hotel/tourist attraction.
Again, the producers goofed do to pure laziness in not doing some realitively simple research.
BMTman
Research for these films today is not a priority as is paying big bucks to actors who are more of a box office draw than true acting talent.
Bill "Newkirk"
And putting that barfbrain Ben Affleck in it only spoiled what I believed was a good flick. That jackass spent oodles of time trying to get people to vote for Al Gore last fall, then didn't vote himself. What a turd. As you can tell I don't care for the guy and never will. Politically, I feel the same way about Alec Baldwin, but the difference is that I think he's a helluva actor and enjoy watching him perform.
"And putting that barfbrain Ben Affleck in it only spoiled what I believed was a good flick."
Fred,
I know some higher ups in the NYCTA. I'll ask them to make sure that Ben Affleck is banned from the Sea Beach Line !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll drink to that Newkirk. And keep him off all the BMT lines.
>>>The scene is a sappy, break-out-the-violins lovers' farewell at Grand Central Terminal, or more accurately at Los Angeles Union Station standing in for Grand Central. The reviewer describes the billowing steam from locomotives enveloping the tragic lovers.<<<
If you want to see snips of the scene in question, check out the movie trailer at :
http://www.apple.com/trailers/touchstone/pearl_harbor.html
Toggle the buttons on the right to do a frame-by-frame search. Yes, in the scene where the two lovers say "goodbye" there is a steam engine on the left in the background. On the right, what appears to be a more modern stainless steel car, is dispensing prerequisite amounts of "steam" to the platform area.
Blue backlighted "steam" always plays well, as the violins swell to a peak!
@..arent all the movies made today "bloopers" ??? except some star trek movies !!!
@..arent all the movies made today "bloopers" ??? except some star trek movies !!!
Ewww. Those are the worst.
Ewww. Those are the worst. ?? which ones ?? ..........!!!
I am starting the LIRR 13 Week Assistant Conductor Training Program on Tuesday 5/29.
Congrats and good luck!
What route did you take to your position? Traditionally the railroad hired from within--i.e., you worked another job for at least a year before you "put in your letter." Are they hiring more easily from outside?
And Good Luck ;-)
The job is posted on the MTA LIRR web site.
I've seen the job on the LIRR site. What I'm curious about is if they've actually shifted their attitude toward operating hires and, if so, why?
The RR and many within it have traditionally taken a dim view of hires "off the street."
Since I am coming "off of the street" I applied the the hard way, I flooded the employment office with resumes daily, weekly, monthly, giving it to my regular Conductor and Engineer to drop off, you name it. Believe it or not, I have been sending resumes for a couple of years. I was told by many that the next few years are going to be the biggest retirement years in LIRR history, so they are hiring A/C's. The key for them to notice your resume, LIRR wants people with customer service experience (i.e. sales, bank teller, etc). The process is long and they weed out the candidates. They started by bringing in 1,300 candidates at different sessions (math & vocabulary test, exploratory interview, credit check and job desription film ), narrowed that group to about 300 canditates (brought in to LIRR employment office for panel interview w/ Transportation Manager and HR and were given a definition and signal to memorize verbatim and was asked to vebalize them sometime during interview), that group was narrowed to about 60 candidates who were invited back to Hillside to take the Signals and Definitions Overview, you were giving a book with 79 signals including Amtrak Zone A and 60 definitions to memorize verbatim to be tested 3 weeks later (50 question test). You need to score a 75 to get into the training program.
Wowsers ...
Hillside to take the Signals and Definitions Overview, you were giving a book with 79 signals including Amtrak Zone A and 60 definitions to memorize verbatim to be tested 3 weeks later (50 question test). You need to score a 75 to get into the training program.
Do you still have this book? Could you scan it? I am having trouble seeing how they could get 79 signals as Amtrak PL siglans and LIAR PL signals are the same signals. Did they include stuff like fixed signs.
Yeah, there's lots of signs too. And I don't think Amtrak and the LIRR's signals are exactly alike either. There's also temporary signals, special cases, and stuff like that.
Welcome to the club, bro ... and when you're done, don't forget to collect the tickets. :)
Thanks!!!!!! It's get better, once in the A/C training program, you have to take 4 Tests and pass each one with a score not less than 80% and the tests are: LIRR Book of Rules, Air-Brake, Ticketing, and PTEP. Fail one test and you are out. BTW, this is non-compensated, they do not want you give up your present job, 2 nights week 5:30 - 9 or 2 days a week and all day Sat 8-4. I am going to use this position to get to Engine Service.
Looks like you're one truly motivated future employee. The one thing I observe is that the process should serve to minimize any arguments that you didn't EARN your punchy-thing and eventually those "handles." Route of the mighty diesels, eh? (grin)
The motivation besides the love of trains is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ and this railroad you can make a nice comfortable living. I will tell you one thing, I have a new respect for these guys because of this training. I was told it is just the begining until you qualify for Conductor or Engineer. The LIRR takes the FRA Regulations seriously and brands them into your brain.
They have to actually - they share the western part of their system with the route of the pointless arrow ... but yeah, I knew a number of guys on the LIRR back in my time and yeah, it was a "pro outfit" ... I would expect that not to have changed. And yes, if something goes wrong, they take that mighty seriously as well.
But it sure does sound like you'll make it just fine. As long as you don't let the nonsense get to you. Railroading sure ain't a job for the "normal" ... heh.
And normal I am not!!!!! Just kidding!! I will keep you posted through out the process.
Heh. I have faith, bro ... if you were in ANY way "normal" you probably wouldn't be hanging out *here* ... :)
Good luck to you. Part of me wants to join the LIRR, but I can't be giving up all that vacation time and seniority with the NYCTA. Oh well.
BTW, you'd better tell your family to get used to you having Tuesday/Wednesday off working the 5 PM to 1:30 AM shift. Not to be pessimistic, just realistic. Of course if you don't have a family to support, then just as well.
Oh yea, they told us Monday/Tuesday or Tuesday/Wednesday days, day/night shifts, actually I don't mind the nights. Jan/Feb vacation, looks like FLA and the Carribean will destinations of choice.
if someone is interested, what are the qualifications???
The qualifications that are wanted are customer service experience, they prefer college, but not needed (HS graduate), good credit history and most important, time commitment to a 13 week non-compensated training program which you need to STUDY, STUDY, STUDY.
When and where they are going to test the r143's
I just scan eight Acela Express photos. Here are the pictures:
Acela Express Train #2170 departing BWI Rail Station, MD (5/4/01)
Acela Express Train #2180 passing through Martin Airport, MD (4/27/01)
Acela Express Train #2180 passing through BWI Rail Station, MD (5/23/01)
Acela Express Train #2153 passing through Landover, MD (5/11/01)
Acela Express Train #2153 passing through Odenton, MD (5/23/01)
Acela Express Train #2208 departing New Carrollton, MD (5/19/01)
Acela Express Train #2183 passing through New Carrollton, MD (5/11/01)
Acela Express Train #2153 passing through Halethorpe, MD (5/16/01)
Enjoy all!
Chaohwa
Very good pictures. The train looks nice but rather primitive compared to France's TGV. Of course, France has been developing high-speed trains for decades. It's a start.
It looks a lot more comfortable than a TGV. Did you know that TGV's aren't compatable w/ hi-level platforms?
Also safer than a TGV. Crashworthiness is better due to compliance with FRA rules.
I didn't know that. Even the new double-deckers? Anyway, they're very safe, quite comfortable and much faster. What Acela really needs is its own right-of-way.
Cool fotos
TGVs are shite -- I was on an EuroStar over the weekend, its a bloody commuter train, mostly airline seats and shitty interior, no leg room, although the luggage racks and buffet cars are quite nice. I might add that the buffet hostess was delicious (I wouldn't quite go that far with buffet food however)
Lexcie
When and where they are going to test the r143's
every time I go to the home link it brings my post up. ignore this duplicate post
How about terminating alternate G -trains at Continental Ave during weekdays. This will add only 3 trains per hour
Its not perfect but some service is better than none
Thank You
And where do you propose turning the others? Court Square's southbound track so it can block southbound trains, or Court Square's northbound track so it can block northbound trains?
Hmmmm?
The way the subway lines are set up now is to run as few trains as possible, by maximizing the numbers of transfers from train to train, and filling the trains as near capacity as possible.
So would it not be logical, at one of these mandated transfer points such as, say, DeKalb Avenue, for one train to wait a few more seconds so that arriving rush hour passengers can leave one train and get on the one across the platform?
But no, the other train always waits, waits, then suddenly closes its doors and leaves, seconds before the doors on the arriving train open. The leaving train is often half empty, which makes NO sense.
This question would be moot, IF trains ran frequently... but they don't any more, even in rush hour. The City is really falling apart. Wasting money on new Japanese trains may look good for the tourists, but it doesn't mean that the trains will run more frequently. It doesn't impress middle class people who have no political voice, and just want to get to work in a reasonable amount of time.
It's done specifically to give people something to complain about.
-Hank
Supposedly its done to keep trains on time
Oh no! 10 seconds extra time, out of all that time they have at the terminal where two trains sit parked for 15 minutes.
The TA rules state that the Conductor must make connections, except during the rush hour. Unfortunately, some C/R's refuse to make connections, even late at night. Those C/R's need to be written up as they just make it worse for the rest of us.
True, there are some conductors that are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
At gap stations, some C/Rs close the doors as soon as the holding lights go out, even if there's another train arriving that hasn't even stopped yet. (I assume the tower only sees that the block is occupied, and shuts off the lights.) Probably within the absolute letter of the rules, but certainly not within the spirit....
Aren't you familiar with the MTA's policy on making connections? It's all detailed in their SLOAPP Information Packet, an online version of which can be found here:
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/sloapp.html
Dan
OH MAN, that was funny! By the way, son, where I come from, McMahon is the Anti-Christ.
Wasn't that great? I nearly fell off my chair the first time I read it. Scary thing is that most of it isn't fiction.
Dan
yes it was pretty funny
Roy
Thanks to everyone who helped me solve the mystery of my very young childhood. I'm 31 and moved out of the Bronx 10 years ago when my Father was transferred to Wilmington,DE and I truly miss having a D train and about 10 bus routes within a block of my home. I was looking for an answer to that question for about 15 years and noone could give me one. Thanks Guys and Gals!!! I'd love to find some original fold-up maps from that timeframe!!!!
Here ya go ... some treats for ya ... first off, a replica of the map at around the right time showing the #8 line, found right here on nycsubway.org in the "map department" ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1968.gif
And here's another little treat from the same place here (a track map) ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/irt-8-tr.gif
Finally, if you want to just "have at" the entire collection, then you can start here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/
I headed out to Newark last night with the BMTman and a couple of non-SubTalkers for what will probably be several rides on the PCCs before they're gone. On the trip out to Franklin Ave, we chatted with a couple of regular commuters who lamented the PCCs' departure with us. One of them believed that, aside from those being dispersed to museums around the country, the fleet will go to Mexico. (<-- Rumor alert!)
At Franklin Ave, we wandered around the construction of the extension, where another apparent railfan was already lingering. The traffic signal is already in place. The track curves as it crosses Franklin Ave, and there's a wide space between the two tracks. East of Franklin Ave, a third track begins in the middle - then ends at a pole! Ties are in place up to the pole, and the rail on one side extends beyond it. Oops. Two theories - either it's planned as a layup/relay track and will have the rails cut off and a bumper block installed before the pole, or NJ Transit is beginning a pilot program for the crash-testing of LRVs ;).
Back at the Newark PATH station, we ran into a PATH engineer who is a friend of BMTman's and shot the breeze until the doors closed. To top off the evening, on the ride back, Acela passed us in the other direction (though going s-l-o-w-l-y).
BTW, PCC service IS RUNNING this weekend!
Is weekend service restored for good or is this just a one-weekend stint?
It's only for the holiday weekend; every other weekend will still have substitute bus service. Interestingly enough, some work was going on today on the extension, but evidently nothing that required a disruption of service.
Have to wonder why they need a relay track so close to the end of the line. Are they planning on turning some of the cars short of the end? Is this for use during the rare times that freight is using the Orange Branch?
If the BMT was built for 8 car trains of 67' cars, it seems to me that 9 60' cars ought to just about fit, or could with liitle investment. Maybe they should rethink the ratio of 4 car sets to 5 car sets, and run the over-crowded L train with 9 car consists of R160's.
Why do that since the R143's have already been asigned to the L?
Do that for the R160, send the R143 to the J/Z & M at that point.
[Do that for the R160, send the R143 to the J/Z & M at that point. ]
J/Z & M will probably not see those trains much as they will be needed on future CBTC equipped IND lines.
Arti
M line shuttle will see R143s operating on it.
Nick
[M line shuttle will see R143s operating on it. ]
... until they need those cars elswhere.
Arti
... until they need those cars elswhere.
Never. OPTO is more valuable for them.
Yeah they probably are my favorite BMT lines. Well I did some railfanning on them today. I was hoping the weather would be better, but I'd still take cool and dreary over the three H's anyday.
The amazing thing was everything went OK today, the buses to/from Flushing were right ontime. The traffic was light. Only problem was I had to wait 15 minutes for a 7 express to Manhattan around 9:30 this morning. When the train finally came there was some confusion as to who was the T/O. The two T/O's were talking for a minute and asked the tower "am I 16 or 32?". After the tower cleared that off we were off on our usual rough ride on the 7 express. The train was jam packed (when isn't it?) at Woodside it took a few minutes to get them doors closed. I might've bailed for the N at QBP but none was in sight. As we enter the Steinway tubes the oil smell filters in. Alot of the people in the train cover their noses.
After a restroom break at Grand Central I took a 4 down to 14th street. The R62 train was fast and smooth, at least compared to the 7. I changed to a Redbird 6. The ride on the 6 felt much smoother than the 7 even tho it was a Redbird. Maybe the 7 tracks are in bad shape. Took that too Bleeker for a Q down to Grand. After stopping off to get some tea in Chinatown (and look at things mystical)I was lucky once again. A Q pulled in going uptown at Grand. I looked out the rear window this time and enjoyed the dash. The Q terminated at 57/6 per the G.O.
I went across the platform and got the head end of the next Brooklyn bound Q. After a slow ride due to track workers in the vicinity of 34th and 42nd the dash rocked. I had "I wouldn't have missed it for the world" by Ronnie Milsap playing on my walkman. How appropriate since the dash will be closing soon. The dash is so fast and straight.
Had an agressive T.O that fought the timers on the bridge.
The strectch in the Prospect Park tubes was fast too, we blew through there and the T/O hit the brakes right on the curve ahead of a red signal and once again managed to destroy the timers.
The Brighton line was blissful as usual we blew by a couple of beastly D's.
I was going to Sunset Park tho, this way because of the G.O. that has midday N's running express after 59st to Coney Island and I wanted 8th ave. So I have to get off at Brighton Beach and wait for the D to C.I. Yeah even though the weather sucked Coney sure looked nice from the El.
I unfortunately just missed an R32 N, so I took the next one, which was a 68. The yards looked nice. Everytime I go down there I wish I had a camera.
Anyway even though it was a Hippo I enjoyed the Sea Beach line. C.I. bound N's were running local though. Speed in between stations is good, and I like the clickety-clack sound of the gravel roadbed. The Sea Beach line is beautiful.
Got off at 8th ave and checked it out. They have half the bridge gone, you can get a good view of the Bay Ridge RR from the narrow ped-walk. Sunset Park is a nice neighborhood. It has grown into quite a mystical place since my last visit. Plenty of chinese resteruants, bakeries,etc. Alot more than in Flushing. And the girls, well what can I say, they were very mystical. It's alot cleaner than Flushing too with less graffitti, and the housing looks nicer. Sunset Park has definately grown alot more than Flushing, there's alot more chinese business and people around. I wonder why. The N isn't as frequent as the 7. But maybe it's cheaper there so more mystical things can afford to come there. Also another reason they should put the N Sea Beach on the bridge. Let the B riders suffer through the labyrinths of lower Manhattan for a change.
The N ride back to Manhattan (also a 68) wasn't too bad. After waiting for a B to leave 36th, the run to Pacific was quick.
I got off at WTC to take another break, then had another great E ride on an R32 to Forest Hills. With no C in front of us we ripped through the 8th ave local. After taking it slow on 53rd street (they let an F in front of us) the ride was quick. The 53rd street tube was fast, the wonderful thing about R32's besides the speed and the window, is you can look into the cab and see the speedometer. We did about 43mph in the tube. The stations along Queens Blvd, particularly the Roosevelt-Forest Hills stretch, were all a blur as we got up to 45mph passing Woodhaven Blvd, then again entering Forest Hills with a hard stop. Definately alot more enjoyable than on an R46 F train.
At Forest Hills I had lunch/dinner, than a fast ride on the Q65A and Q20 back to Flushing, where I wasted no time getting on the N21 bus to go home.
Ok i need to vent a little! I take the J train every day and it just seems to be getting worst. The gap between trains at a time when its still rush hour (6:30)is ridiculous!!!! In the time i wait for a J, 4 L trains have passed by at Bway Junction!!!!!
Here is one suggestion other than the desperate need for more subway cars!!! Why not end this skip stop business and make two lines.
The J would run local from Jamaica Center and Express from Bway Junction to Myrtle then on to Marcy Ave. Local service would be done by the new Z train which would start at the L trains Atlantic Ave and go down to Bway junction and run local all the way or at least from Bway Jct to Myrtle and then run express to marcy ave. That would serve all neighborhoods the right way and add some speed to the line.
Now on to the sighting of the 143...... Two weeks ago i was standing on the L platform at Bway Junction on a Friday at around 12 Midnite when i saw a train being pulled into the yards repair building but it didnt look like the rolling stock of the L or J then i noticed there were lcd screens on the sides and what looked to be a full cab at the end of one car. And i noticed the Black in the front car of the train. Now was this my imagination or was it a train of 143s????
Yes, it was delivered about 2 weeks ago around midnight, and is now inside the barn at ENY
"Local service would be done by the new Z train which would start at the L trains Atlantic Ave"
That could possibly happen now, but in the near future, no way !
That center platform along with the Snediker Ave structure are due to be razed. The Atlantic Ave. station is due to be limited to one platform in concert with the coming CBTC signal system on the (L).
Currently the Atlantic Ave. station has too many platforms and structure than it really needs.
Bill "Newkirk"
I often wondered if this station was the major transfer point it was designed to be when fully operational (with #16 Canarsie, #14 Broadway Bklyn Lcl and #13 Fulton St. routes). I really thought this complex structure was uneccesary.
Why not have the Z start at Rockaway Pkwy then? Can some R143s be assigned to the Z so it can use the L line from Rockaway Pkwy to Broadway Junction?
The whole reason reason for using the Canarsie line for CBTC testing with the R143 is that it's a relatively simple line that is relatively isolated from other lines. You're adding complexities to the current situation that the MTA is trying to avoid.
The MTA is tearing down structures to make the line even simpler and you're talking about adding a new route utilizing that line... it's way less than likely that the MTA would be willing to implement your suggestion.
Instead consider this. Run the Z express as much as possible where ever the middle track is available, including after Myrtle-Broadway and make the J strictly local. Do away with the skip-stop service and introduce full peak direction express service. That seems to make things less complicated. I'm sure there's another reason why this is already not done... but that's for someone esle to figure out :)
Shawn.
The only reason i said it should start at Atlantic Ave is because of the two extra tracks and the access to the Bway line might be easier. Im sure there would be a way to isolate the two tracks so that i doesnt interfere with the L line what so ever. But yet again the MTA has its own agendas that have nothing to do with us at all.
Try riding the 2 between 8:30 and 9:30AM. Four number 5 trains can pass in the morning before a 2 comes. I have heard the TA actually have to call the transit police to calm riders because of the delays. I swear. I estimate the 2 has 25 to 30 minute headways during this time. I've never seen such a horrible line.
Tell me about it! The 5 does come more often than the 2 and when it finally comes it's jammed. It is a horribly run line. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the 2 is jinxed! It's so bad that the Straphangers' Campaign ranked the 2 as the third worst line in the system. Horribly overcrowded, old signals below East 180th, rusty old subway cars, too many stops in the Bronx and Brooklyn. Something needs to be done about the 2 line!
If its hard to ride it Imagine trying to work the damn 2 Thats why some people call it the beast,And its only going to get worst with the 142.
That's if the people who work the 2 don't learn to operate the R142s properly. The new cars will be an improvement over the old ones if nothing else.
The 2 should be split.The 1/9 train should be extended to Brooklyn with the 2 trains going to South Ferry. Also , an new Pelham line should be made to serve as an Lexington Ave. express to Brooklyn[8 train] that might help.
It's the same with the 6 in Midtown in the morning rush. When the uptown trains are really backed up I've had five downtown trains run through the station before the first uptown skipped the stop due to overcrowding.
Then the next one skipped.
The next one is going express to 125th, not stopping at 96th (my station, I go to Hunter High School on 94th and Park).
The next one is going local to 86th then express to 125th.
The next one doesn't particularly matter, since by the time it arrives in the station my class began ten minutes ago.
Dan
Then the next one skipped.
The next one is going express to 125th, not stopping at 96th (my station, I go to Hunter High School on 94th and Park).
The next one is going local to 86th then express to 125th.
The next one doesn't particularly matter, since by the time it arrives in the station my class began ten minutes ago.
I, of course, refer to the uptown trains which I'm waiting for.
Dan
While riding an N train uptown around 1:45pm we got a double yellow before Whitehall and stopped on the middle track, then merged back with the N/B track. I didn't see any track workers around, so I wonder why they did that.
The northbound track was not in service due to a G.O.
The flagmen were there, they most likely packed up early.
I don't know why the Sea Beach goes to Whitehall in the first place. Send it over the bridge and stop barfing on my favorite train. Everytime I hear the N connected with Whitehall or any of those other crapola stations in the lower bowels of Manhattan I want to puke.
Is this completed yet? Please respond as soon as possible, this connection may be my answer to Shea Stadium on Monday.
No. Take the F or R to Roosevelt Ave and transfer there.
first off, shouts to Babylon 737. Congradulations. I hope u make it. And one benefit that comes out of it, is now u hopefully will share ur information with us, because i have been struggling lately with the question Should I work for LIRR or the Subway? I do wanna become an Engineer for LIRR. After all, many engineers say i have a shot because i know NORAC Rules already. Anyways i hear Conductors must memorize the tracks and interlockings the same like Engineers do. So far i only know the Far Rockaway and hempstead branch like that. However, I will be touring the Port Washington branch on monday. Anyway let me know how it goes. I wonder if they would pick me? I only have these things behind me. I am graduating in june, working at McDonalds for almost a year, and does Volunteer work for the Transit museum.
Anyway thanx. email me at paulroach2001@yahoo.com
>>>>>>Should I work for LIRR or the Subway?
Apply for both and see what happens.
Personally, the LIRR is a better place to work.
I finally got let go from my shitty job on Tuesday. Due to a combination of a psychopathic client, an incompetent project manager, and a co-worker who barely ever did any work, our Milwaukee project has been a disaster since day one. Instead of actually listening to my suggestions about how we could improve things on the project, the project manager decided it would be less hassle to get rid of the squeaky wheel than to make any fundamental changes in the way the project was being managed.
Oh, and I was right in the middle of filing a workers compensation claim due to carpal tunnel when I got the can. Just a coincidence, of course. Where's a union steward when you need one?
Right now my immediate plans are to get another job as soon as possible, naturally. Hopefully my next gig will be at a smaller design-oriented firm where the corporate idiocy quotient won't be quite as high.
Long-term plans are more difficult to pin down, although I'm giving some thought to moving to either Philly or the NYC area to finish school. (Drexel in Philly; NJIT, NYIT, Pratt, or Cooper-Union in New York.) Staying here in Chicago is also an option. Believe it or not, part of me even wants to move back to Boston and finish what I started there. Hopefully I'll figure something out sooner or later.
The Chicago SubTalk field trip plans won't be affected, unless I'm still unemployed at that point, in which case I may be asking some of you to cover my meal tabs. :-)
In better news, I found out yesterday that my father now seems to be cancer-free. Just a couple more rounds of chemo and continued recovery from his bone marrow transplant, and hopefully he'll have this thing behind him.
Your thoughts and prayers are appreciated.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I finally got let go from my shitty job on Tuesday. Due to a combination of a psychopathic client, an incompetent project manager, and a co-worker who barely ever did any work, our Milwaukee project has been a disaster since day one. Instead of actually listening to my suggestions about how we could improve things on the project, the project manager decided it would be less hassle to get rid of the squeaky wheel than to make any fundamental changes in the way the project was being managed.
As you've now seen, being a squeaky wheel works a lot better in theory than in practice. Sometimes it's actually best just to keep quiet even when you see things that can be improved. Some employers are open to suggestions and new ideas, but unfortunately some are not. And it's not always easy to tell the difference.
Well, in this situation, I basically had two options:
A) Say nothing and continue to get blamed for all the shit that was happening.
B) Try to set the record straight by explaining what was really going on.
Of course, managers don't like being told that they're part of the problem, but I wasn't going to sit around and let myself take the fall for other people's fuck-ups. Of course, I ended up taking the fall anyway, but at least I put up a fight.
That company was an incredibly poisonous atmosphere from the start, and I was already in the process of planning my exit. I guess it was one of those situations where you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I hope you remembered to document the conversations by keeping a private log of who said what and when. If properly maintained, you can use that in court if you decide to sue your employer.
If you don't have a shop steward, maybe you can settle for an attorney.
Lots of luck. Your choice of institutions is good.
BTW, Cooper Union, I believe, does not charge tuition. But it's very competitive, so put your best foot forward.
That company was an incredibly poisonous atmosphere from the start, and I was already in the process of planning my exit. I guess it was one of those situations where you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yep, there certainly are workplaces like that. Not many, fortunately, but that's small comfort to people who find themselves in one.
In better news, I found out yesterday that my father now seems to be cancer-free. Just a couple more rounds of chemo and continued recovery from his bone marrow transplant, and hopefully he'll have this thing behind him.
Definitely good news! Please give your father our best.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My sympathies, guy ... as someone who's had a LOT of gigs over a lot of years, you'll look back on the circus and laugh. For now, chill out, kick back and try to take a few days to sort your head out. Spend some time with Dad and get your butt in gear as soon as you've shaken off the upsets ... put together your show and tell package, dust off the resume and move on. Chitown ain't such a bad place but you're now free to do whatever you want. Might want to think that out so you can make the best of the sitch ...
We're hoping for ya ...
That's great news about your father. I wish your family the best.
About school: I am a current Drexel student. If you would like any advice or insight about Drexel, I am a senior here - I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about the school. I also know a few architecture majors that I might be able to put you in touch with.
Thanks for the helpful info. I just may take you up on that offer sooner or later.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's just a shot in the dark, but from what I've heard, the MTA is hiring. They have recently siphoned off a lot of structural engineers from private consulting firms... like my own. Of course, you have to personally have an affinity for public employment. It's not bad getting every vacation known to mankind, though, is it?
Parsons is also doing a lot of hiring. Unlike the MTA, I don't know many contacts there. Parsons will be involved with a lot of the high profile transit related projects in the New York City area. Judging from the way the City now wants to design lavish public facilities, they'll need a whole army of talented architects.
Regrettably, this is the only help I can offer,
MATT-2AV
I applied to be the registrar of Drexel's Architecture School. After several interviews, the Dean and I decided I probaby wouldn't like it. But I did learn a lot. If you have any questions, feel free to email me.
I had some time today so I decided to see what's up over at Broadway Junction and the East New York area rail lines.
BIG OBSERVATION: The Pitkin structure was being dismantled as I passed by. I stopped, parked and got out to take some pictures. I also noticed that the Gershow Recycling facility (a half-block away) was opened. The scrapper's torch was working on the Pitkin curve right at the connection with the Snediker arm of the Canarsie Line. Funny thing was that there was no GO in place. The contractor's merely stopped working to let the northbound trains go past.
I should have some images of the work -- or demolition...:-( -- by mid week. BTW, those crews were working fast, so if you want any shots, I suggest you get over there before the end of next week or you'll miss it!
Also, I got a comfirmation from a worker there about a hunch I mentioned here a while back: that Gershow was going to getting the contract for the scrapping of the Pitkin and Snediker Ave. El Structures.
At Broadway Juction I noticed that the same colored glass panels that adorn the Franklin Avenue Shuttles' terminal building have been installed in the escalator walkway and Canarise Line crossover stairway. I believe the Huntington Station of the LIRR has a similar 'imitation stain-glass' decor.
In the meantime, all Pitkin/Canarsie L line buffs should be 'on alert' as things are starting to happen fast after quite a bit of 'lull time' at ENY.
BMTman
Sounds like it's time for another excursion to ENY. Damn, I gotta come out there.
-Stef
Doug,
I would assume that the place to start would be where the new city bound (L) track will be. That way they can install the new ramp and in no time have the Atlantic Ave. station with both Canarsie and City bound services. Then the rest of the structure no longer in use will be ready for scrapping. I'll check this out and bring a hardhat !
Bill "Newkirk"
I have horrific memories of watching els being demolished as a child (Jamaica Ave.) and it's just as hard to watch today, even for a section not used since 1956.
I have horrific memories of watching els being demolished as a child (Jamaica Ave.) and it's just as hard to watch today, even for a section not used since 1956.
Considering the idiocy of demolishing the Jamaica Avenue El years before the Archer Avenue line would be ready, it's not surprising that your memories are horrific.
"Considering the idiocy of demolishing the Jamaica Avenue El years before the Archer Avenue line would be ready, it's not surprising that your memories are horrific."
That was pretty idiotic, wasn't it? But at least they implemented something. That's a lot better than they did with the Myrtle Av line (replaced it with a bus!).
That's what they did with the 3rd Avenue El in the Bronx as well. One of the reasons I was gassing off so much about the G train weeks ago is that fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, call it a "G train." I personally see what they're doing to the G as history going around the THIRD time ... once it's been truncated enough, might as WELL run a bus ... this is what I see in the cards and I don't need a TV psychic to cause me to see it.
I can't blame you for feeling that way. But the MTA is much better supported these days and the desire to contract has been replaced, in part by an opportunity to empire-build. Managers like that, because it enhances their careers. I like it, because the empire will include a new LIRR tunnel into Manhattan, a subway on Second Av (finally!) and a new Jamaica Station.
Here's hoping ... but in the bad old days, when service was cut back, it was a CERTAIN sign that your line was going to go the way of the 2nd avenue el ... I saw it happen to my own favorite El on Webster Avenue. And it isn't like it didn't get used despite the fact that it was a slow ride to nowhere on either end.
I don't have to worry about the G line of course because I don't live there, but I can see what everyone there is worried about. Isn't like it would be the first time ... and the lack of attention to "what are we going to do about the G train when we connect the tunnel" sure does seem to indicate that at best, they were planning to eliminate the line when the drawings were done.
Considering the idiocy of demolishing the Jamaica Avenue El years before the Archer Avenue line would be ready, it's not surprising that your memories are horrific.
That was pretty idiotic, wasn't it? But at least they implemented something. That's a lot better than they did with the Myrtle Av line (replaced it with a bus!).
It could be argued that the Jamaica El's eventual replacement (by the Archer Ave. line) was a matter of too little, too late. Jamaica severely deteriorated as a shopping and commercial area in the decade plus that it was without subway service. While there were other factors at play, the lack of good transit surely was a significant one.
I checked this out today (Sun. 5/27/01). If any of you read my post, I was right. They are removing the steel work that used to ramp and turn left and head towards Lefferts Ave.
This is necessary because a new ramp parallel to the Canarsie bound track must be done to realign the trackage. Remember that piece of steel work where the Manhattan bound (L) would duck under to run on the Snediker Ave "el" ? Most of it is gone.
BMTman was right, they are moving fast on this, better get down there with your cameras before history disappears.
BTW- looking toward Broadway Junction, there is a light tower next to a small brick shed that is surrounded by 2 X 4 construction. Asbestos abatement ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Right, Bill. Asbestos abatement is being done to an old, small structure (switching??) on the Atlantic Avenue structure near the Broadway part of the El.
Bill, did you notice the old LIRR Substation over there? It has been fenced in using the same style mesh as was used on the recent fencing for the Bay Ridge Branch. I wonder what that's all about? LIRR might have something in mind for ol' Substation #2 all of a sudden? Makes one go hummmm.......
BMTman
"Bill, did you notice the old LIRR Substation over there? It has been fenced in using the same style mesh as was used on the recent fencing for the Bay Ridge Branch. I wonder what that's all about? LIRR might have something in mind for ol' Substation #2 all of a sudden? Makes one go hummmm......."
I did take notice of the abandoned substation structure and what a wonderful bird sanctuary it is. I did't notice the fencing as you stated. I don't think the LIRR has any plans for it unless there is a demolition project associated with the Snediker "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
On Friday, May 25th passed by the site at about 12PM.
The steel removal had progressed to just west of track P-2
leading to Snediker Ave. I was also able to snap a few pictures.
The steel removal began the week of May 14 from just south of
Glenmore Ave to just south of Liberty Ave. on Van Sinderen Ave el.
This week, it progressed from Glenmore Ave. to Pitkin Ave.
This evening, as I got off a Q Train at Brighton Beach Station, I saw a conductor holding a small piece of paper (actually cardboard) that seemed interesting. I asked him about it, and he gave it to me. It was a list of hints for conductors, and it turned out he was a relatively new conductor (for only two months), and he had been getting those all the time. I thought I'd share it with you.
One side was black with diagonal white stripes on top (like the markings that appear in the middle of stations where conductors stop) and the following printed on the rest of the side, in white letters:
C O N D U C T O R
OBSERVE
BOARD
FIRST
The other side was white with the following red and black text:
PUBLIC ADDRESS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
ROUTINE CYCLE:
1. Station Identification
2. Transfer options,
if any
3. Train identification/
destination
4. Next stop
5. Closing doors
announcement
Has anyone ever seen this before?
- Lyle Goldman
Yup. I've seen it affixed to a C/R cab on the Q Line next the window under the PA controls.
Aren't they supposed to POINT at the board, not just observe it? Probably another collectible would be "breathe in. Then breathe out. Repeat as necessary" ... sorry, but folks used to know that stuff long before they laid up the school car ...
I've seen the conductors point at the board before. I always wondered what the purpose of this was? Can anyone fill me in? Thanks,
ws
They do it in Tokyo, so MTA figured might as well do it here too. Others have explained the policy as "it helps the conductors think before they open the doors" which convinces me that the MTA is about to begin going beyond hiring off the street and doing employment canvasses at the monkey house at the Bronx Zoo ... I mean how hard is it to just look and see if the board is there at your window before pushing the buttons? No board, no buttons, ask the motorman why we're here instead of where we should be?
But I digress.
hah! I figured it was something like that.. That brings up another question I've pondered... Are there built-in saftey measures which prevent a conductor from opening the doors while the doors while the train is in motion? Does the TO have to release something before the conductor can open the doors? I always assumed this to be true, in which case, why would it matter if they saw the board out the window? Wouldn't they just be forced to wait until the train was in the correct position?
Thanks,
Wayne
Got me over a barrel with that question ... I have no idea of how the newer cars work - remember you're talking to a guy that worked the "R9's" ... I understand there's an "enabler" now in the "T/O's" cab that will not allow the doors to open unless they push the button but that the "enablers" don't work on all that many trains.
I'd best leave this for people who know how things work today. If you opened the doors back in my days, assuming the cars were in good order, there'd be an emergency application after one wheel rotation as best as I can remember. I never tickled that tiger, I'd wait for my jailbars when I was a conductor and never opened up when the train was moving. However once at 59th Street, a train I was on rolled with the doors open and after about three feet of movement, the brakes blew and she stopped. Motorman had to recharge.
But yeah, back in my days you didn't pull the triggers unless you were stopped *AND* you were at your jailbars. (the board)
>>> Does the TO have to release something before the conductor can open the doors? I always assumed this to be true, in which case, why would it matter if they saw the board out the window? Wouldn't they just be forced to wait until the train was in the correct position? <<<
You are making a big assumption that the T/O would not allow the doors to open before the train was in the right position, or even that the T/O has placed the train in the right position. The whole purpose of the board is so the C/R can verify that the T/O has stopped in the correct position before opening the doors.
Tom
If the T/O blows the stop maker he is supposed "pass" one long buzzer signal to the C/R.
The C/R is not to open if he is not in front of the conductor board. I've seen T/O's off by a little bit with the first door still platforming and the C/R did not open until he confirmed the front part of the train did in fact platform.
T/O's know where they stop, if they are a little long some pass 2 buzzers back if it is safe.
There was a rash of doors opening on the wrong side a while ago. Hence the point at the board method was started. This didn't stop the wrong side openings so they are trying the enabler switch on some train sets where the T/O has to vote on which side to open.
> There was a rash of doors opening on the wrong side a while ago.
When was this? I don't think I was ever on a train when its doors opened on the wrong side. Does this happen often? Wouldn't that be dangerous, especially for people standing at the doors? It must cause delays.
- Lyle Goldman
It happens, someone once posted the figures that it did happen. My memoery fails but it was something like 6 times in 3 months and they started the point at the board.
I've seen doors open on the wrong side on The Market-Frankford Line with the M-4's a few times. God forbid if someone was leaning on the doors (even though there is a warning), and either they fall out and land on the other track and an oncomming train approaches, or they fall out and land on the street if it's on the el. Doors that open on the wrong side is not just another "bug" in the system, it is a safety hazzard that could cost someone his/her life.
I once saw it happen on the 2 with no disastrous results -- but that's because there was a platform on the wrong side, too. The northbound 2 was running express in the Bronx due to a GO. We stopped at, IIRC, Gun Hill Road, and the C/R opened the doors on the northbound platform, which would have been just fine and dandy except that platform was officially closed at the time. A TA worker who was waiting on the southbound platform got the attention of another TA worker in the car who got the attention of the T/O who embarrased the C/R over the PA. For a few seconds the doors were open on both sides of the train -- the second time I've ever seen that except on the M shuttle.
Hey, the same thing happened to me not long ago! Wait, oh, I was with you. Heh heh. Anyhow, what does "IIRC" mean?
If I Recall Correctly
IIRC means If I Recall Correctly.
Got it - I also meant to ask (maybe I wasn't too clear), is there a mechanism which prevents the doors from opening while the train is still in motion?
ws
> . . . is there a mechanism which prevents the doors from opening while the train is still in motion?
You know, I have always been wondering the same thing. I have also been wondering the converse: if there is a mechanism which prevents the train from moving while the doors are still open. Does anybody here know the answers to those questions?
- Lyle Goldman
Is there a mechanism that prevents the trains doors from opening while the train is in motion?
Not on 98% of the cars. Only cars equipped with a door enabler can prevent the C/R from opening the doors without the T/O's permission. But the enabler only works in this instance, otherwise the answer is still no.
Is there is a mechanism which prevents the train from moving while the doors are still open.
Yes and no.
Yes--When the doors are open and T/O's indication is taken away, the motors will not take power. To bypass this feature, the T/O would have to operate the "door bypass" button on the T/O's console.
No--Even with the doors open, the train's brakes are not automatically applied. So if the T/O were to release the brakes, the train would start rolling if the train is on a grade, even with the doors open.
In Japan when any RR worker crosses the tracks he must point in each direction before crossing said tracks.
They also call out each signal as they see it. I guess those guys who visited from Japan in the "taking of ..." gave us some pointers (pardon the pun).
Heh. Yeah, I've seen the rituals on JR property ... and they travel in clumps too across the track which makes it even MORE amusing.
There are different stickers for the T/O cab and also for the C/R cab.
Concuctors also get a small 'bluebook' that has hints and details about what they should say/do for different scenerios.
BMTman
Is it perhaps entitled as "Sayings of Chairman Kalikow?" (Inquiring mimes knead to no)
Can anyone here give me some excerpts from this "bluebook"?
- Lyle Goldman
While I was riding on a Manhattan bound "Q" train this afternoon and noticed that when a train was passing underneath some tree branches that hung over the southbound local track just north of the Kings Highway station they actually came in contact with the train. Did anyone think that they should trim these tree branches rather than allowing them to grow so much that they can come in contact with a passing train? I guess not. If anyone out there work for the T/A please let them know about this and trim the offending tree branches.
BMTJeff
Yeah I've seen this on the Sea Beach also. It could pose a hazard but it does look nice. You should see the tree branches drooping over Glen Cove road in East hills(among other spots on the north shore). All the trucks and buses hit them, and some come down.
When the leaves are wet, they can clean the steel dust off the roofs !
Bill "Newkirk"
At least there is one good use for low hanging tree branches at they don't cost anything.
BMTJeff
It happens EVERY year and come August if like last year they will G.O. weekdays express running D/Q's and cut them back. Last year it was a 2 week, 10am 3pm weekday G.O.
But just give it some time, as the trains run by and wack the branches, they will form a curve and actualy curve over the car bodies. I've seen that happen as well.
Though with all the rain recently the leaves do clean off the bird crap from the top of the cars.
I rode a set of Slant R-40s on the "Q" line from Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn to 42nd Street in Manhattan today. They accelerate quickly and they seem to brake fairly well. You can't get that kind of performance from an R-68. Is there anyway they can improve the performance of an R-68? Would more powerful motors and better brakes help?
BMTJeff
Take a look at the frame. It's rusting and falling apart on the R40. I don't think you should be making judgements on the performance of subway car features till you've operated many. How can you tell the R68 brakes aren't good? Tell me you've operated every single contract and are able to make that statement.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that the R40 both accelerates faster and acheives higher speeds more often in actual use than does any version of the R68.
If anyone looks at the HP to weight ratio on the R-68s they'll realize that you'll not get good acceleration performance out of an R-68. I anyone who has some knowledge of braking performance they have to apply the brakes on the R-68s sooner than they have to on the other cars. If they use the same motors and brakes on a lighter car you'll get better acceleration and braking performance. On the other hand a car that has weak acceleration and braking performance can be improved by fitting the car with more powerful motors and brakes.
BMTJeff
Okay Einstein, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR BIG MOUTH IS. What is the HP/Wt. of an R-68. Now what's the HP/Wt. of an R-40S. Now compare them. Now that you've done that - why don't you adjust for gear ratio differences. Oh and while your at it, now adjust for differences in notching rates on the controllers and current limiter settings.
After you see how little you actually know about how the propulsion system compensates for what you see as insurmountable propulsion differences, feel like your ready for some basic braking. Why don't you tell us all how the output of the R-68 J relay differs from the J-Relay on the R-40. What's the difference in calibration between the service and emergency variable load valves on both contracts? How does the use of clasp brakes differ from braking effort of a single brake unit?
See, Jeff, you really don't know all that much now, do you? Why don't you stop yapping, start listening and you just might learn something. Better yet, they're having a real heavy debate over on "BikeTalk" about whether doubling the number of baseball cards in the spokes doubles the volume of that real cool noise. They also are trying to determine which is faster - a Schwinn 24" with 4 cards and 4 clothspins or a Raleigh 26" with 8 cards and 2 clothspins. Better hurry overthere jeff. You wouldn't want them to decide without your input.
http://www.biketalk.org/speed/assholes_debate/schwinndontwin.html
If all other factors are equal such as gearing and notching rates on the controllers if you have 4 100 HP motors for example on a 75,000 lb. car they will accelerate the car at a faster rate than the same motors on a 90,000 lb. car. Sure you can make other changes to get better performance out of the motors but only up to a certain limit. If you aks the motors to do too much work that will put too much of a strain on the motors and shorten their service life. If you want to maintain the same gearing and controller settings and acceleration rate on a 90,000 lb. car versus a 75,000 lb. car you must use more powerful motors in order to maintain the same HP to weight ratio. If you overpower a car that is no good either since toomuch power will create other problems. It is important to maintain a certain HP to weight ratio for optimum performance from the traction motors.
BMTJeff
"If all other factors are equal such as gearing and notching rates on the controllers'
And if your grandmother had runners she'd be a sled. What a pathetic cop-out, jeffrey. The fact is there is a difference in gear ratios between the R-40s and the R-68. The fact is there is a difference in the current limiting between the R-40 and the R-68. The fact is that anyone can omit facts they don't like to come up with the result he wants. There is one incontrovertable fact here - you were wrong. You are wrong.
By the way, bmt Jeff, as long as you raised the issue, what is the service life of a traction motor. Obviously you must know this if you assert that the TA would shorten it by fooling with gearing and rates. Perhaps you should look at it this way. The R-40, because of it's weight, and current demands load the traction motors to roughly 75% of its rated capacity (keeping in mind that the TA increased the R-40 HP by 15% when the cars were overhauled. Now since the R-68 is 19% heavier, to get like performance, you need only demand an equivalent increase in performance from the traction motors - still within its rated performance curve.
So now what Jeffrey? DO you acknowledge that you might have been wrong about the R-68s?
It is acceptable to change the gearing so you can use a greater percentage of a tracion motors available power and still get adequate performance but you must stay within certain limits. As long as the traction motors are working within their specified service limits there should be no unusual problems. If the motors are overworked they will not function properly after a period of time. If in the future they wish to improve the performance of the R-68s by equipping them with more powerful motors that is acceptable within a certain limit. If the cars are equipped with motors that are too powerful the braking system can be overwhelmed unless it is upgraded to compensate for the more powerful motors.
BMTJeff
There are certain people who contribute to this board who enter the system with the sole purpose of wanting to be entertained, just like going to the amusement park. That's fine. But to hype over and over and over again in regards to a functional piece of equipment (R68) which is far from glamorous yet statistically dependable is getting, quite frankly, rather tiresome. I have operated the R68 and I'll freely admit that I do not like to operate them. But that does not change the fact that they perform to the satisfaction to NYCT. The cars see excessive 24/7 mileage on the D & N. Sure the slants are good. Very few run 24/7. A subway car is a machine.
I'm glad that someone agrees with me about the R-68s. I will ride them but that doesn't make me like them. I frankly do not think that they perform all that well but I'm aware that they work to the NYCTAs satisfaction and that they are able to carry passengers in a safe fashion and that the cars are reliable. I'm sure that if the R-68s didn't perform to the satisfaction of the NYCTA they wouldn't be in service. As long as the NYCTA feels that the R-68s are able to perform their duties in an admirable fashion they will try to maintain them in serviceable condition. I realize that many people will probably dislike the R-142s and the R-143s when enough of them have entered service. They will be the butt of criticism for a time because of the trouble they will have with them. Once the bugs are worked out the criticisms will fade and they'll be regarded as perfectly good subway cars. I recall when the R-46s where the butt of joke because of all the problems they had with them. After the problems were corrected and some years later the cars went through the GOH program they have been reasonably trouble free. The most the average subway rider wants from the train that they are riding on is to get them to their destination in a timely fashion and not to breakdown enroute.
BMTJeff
What I mean by "Performing to the TA's satisfaction" is the MBDF. When you state: "I frankly do not think that they perform all that well....." I see a conflict between your opinion of the cars' performance vs. the TA's statistics.
Although a car might perform well according to the T/A in respect to the MDBF doesn't mean that I like the overall performance of the car. Sure the R-68s will get me to my destination just as well as the R-40s just to give you an example. The most important thing in my own opinion is that the car won't break down enroute no matter whether the car has good acceleration or poor acceleration. I'm sure that there are some T/Os that don't care for the R-68s in certain respects but will accept them as long as they work. You can't have everything in life so you have got to place priorities on certain things. Sure you can complain about anything that you don't like but you should complain about what is most important.
BMTJeff
"If all other factors are equal such as gearing and notching rates on the controllers if you have 4 100 HP motors for example on a 75,000 lb............."
And if your grandmother had runners she could be a sled!
Of course they (the other factors)are not equal and who says they should be. There is a difference in the gear ratios between the R-40 and the R-68. They were designed that way ....... for more top-end speed. The current limit and brake overload circuits were calibrated differently to accommodate a car that was 19% heavier than its predecessor. Do you want to eliminate those minor facts because they don't support your childish, simplistic point of view.
By the way Jeffie, what is the life of a traction motor? You better know that before you start throwing out that red herring 'cause I assure you I DO know the life expectancy of one and that factor will surely not strengthen your case.
So we're back to the original question jeffie. Is it possible that you were wrong in your evaluation of the R-68 performance? Or do you want to compare the R-40 to the R-68 mathematically and prove me wrong?
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that the R40 both accelerates faster and acheives higher speeds more often in actual use than does any version of the R68.
Of course you don't. If one is a rocket scientist, one knows better.
You need to be a village idiot to know what you know about the R-68.
The R40 is a Dodge Dart with a Slant 6. They are laughingly simple, peppy, spartan, will run forever if it were not for the fenders and chassis turning it into a Flinstone car.
The R68 is a stretch Dodge Caravan with a 4 cylinder engine of equal horsepower to an age-old Slant 6, but can't perform in traffic and won't last as long.
I had a Dodge Dart with one of those slant 6s. It was one engine which wasn't ruined by tring to bore it out to squeeze a few more horsepower out of it on a shop bench.
I ran that car to ovre 100,000 miles (which was more unusual in those days than today) and gave it to my brother. He spiffed it up and finally sold it to a hobbyist when it had over 130,000 miles on it. The guy who bought it (for about $1000--almost a third of its price new) acted like he got an early Christmas present.
But to give yet another aspect of this discussion of train speeds. I don't know much about the tech specs of R40s vs. R68s--but something about this discussion reminds me of when I was learning traffic control procedures on the road. It was pointed out (with movies and field exercises) that it is very difficult to estimate the speed of moving vehicles. The size of the vehicle, the amount of noise it makes, even whether it is going straight or around a curve are all subjective influences on our perception of speed.
If an R68 is built and insulated in such a way that it is quieter than a slant, or the motors are quieter, if its acceleration is smoother, if you experience less environmental noise inside it, and so on, it will seem slower, all other things being equal.
Your analogy is faulty. It's cute but definitely faulty. The Dodge 225 Slant-6 was a great durable engine but I'm sure the 4 cyl Mitsubishi engine has more HP/wt. output. Not suprising because the technology has changed much over the past 40 years. While rail propuplion too has changed much since the R-40 was built, the difference between the R-40 and the R-68 (technology-wise) is virtually months - not years. DC traction is DC traction and the only differences we are speaking about are the weight of the vehicles and the transmission used. Otherwise from the traction motor's point of view there is no difference.
Incidently, my 1965 Dodge Coronet 225 slant-6 went 165,000 miles and the body rusted out. My 1991 Honda will eclipse that mark - barring accidents - easily.
dude that slant 6 was one hell of an engine like the ( chevrolet 327 ) & at least back in to old days you could work on them
yourself ! like todays rail transit equipment all ""made soewhere else "" except in the usa ,too complex not basic & simple
( thats my opinion on this ) ok ?? ......!!
It was one hell of an engine. Can't say how many times I had mine apart but no matter what i did, I'd put it back together and it would run. In my opinion, the Chevy in line 6 was the analogous engine. When you talk about the 327 you're talking about a performance engine like the ford 289 and the dodge 426. We better stop this. I'm starting to feel all sorts of warm and tingly.
look out dude !! ... the quality was built in before the name wheny on back in the good old days !!!
just like the old rail running stock was built better !!
Oh my God, a Train Dude/Salaam Allah love-in --
What IS this board coming to???
Peacetalk, it seems.:-)
With all this Cartalk going on, The R-10 would be a Plymouth Road Runner with a 440, if not a hemi.
My friend who is a TA RCI once said the Slant 6 engine sounded like a Singer sewing machine !
Bill "Newkirk"
yep , thats whay my sons first car sounded like !! 1976 plymouth voyager ( slant 6 engine )
My 77 Dodge Aspen sounded like a Mercedes on the outside (I learned to recognize a Slant 6 sound a block away), but had a higher-pitched whine in lower gears inside.
Ah yes, the wonderful slant six... I've owned several... some were the 225, some were the 198, all excellent motors, including the Spanish-built 225 (1969 Barrieros 4-door sedan, basically a Spanish version of the 1966 Dart). Nowadays, though, my engine of choice has been the 3.8 liter V-6 from Ford - we've had four, three of which we still own, all of them with over 100K (the fourth was in my younger daughter's '93 Sable, which was wrecked just over a week ago at 92K miles - she's OK now, but the car was totalled).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then there's Jeep's 4-liter 6, as bulletproof an engine as you'll ever find. My Jeep has it, and it still runs as smoothly as it did the day I bought it new. Still oil-tight after 427,000 miles and never touched. Interestingly, it makes the exact same sound in third gear as my folks' '74 AMC Hornet did in first gear.
The R40 is a Dodge Dart with a Slant 6. They are laughingly simple, peppy, spartan, will run forever if it were not for the fenders and chassis turning it into a Flinstone car.
The R68 is a stretch Dodge Caravan with a 4 cylinder engine of equal horsepower to an age-old Slant 6, but can't perform in traffic and won't last as long.
Let's see ...
The R44 and R46 are Ford Tauruses or Toyota Camrys - not flashy or distinctive in any real sense, but they perform their duties in an adequate manner.
The R32 is a Volvo - it just keeps running forever.
The Redbirds are like just about any car model, but one that's getting high mileage and ends up needing repairs all the time - it might have been nice once, but it's time for a trade-in.
The R30 was an Edsel - 'nuff said.
The BMT Standard was a Chevy Suburban - just can't kill those things.
I'd liken the BMT standard to a Checker cab - indestructible.
The Mercedes has also been known to last and last. The R-32s are a good analogy there.
As for the Edsel, the R-16s come to mind.
Which subway car would, say, a '55 Chevy compare to? Or a Nash Rambler? Or a Studebaker? Or a DeSoto?
Which subway car would, say, a '55 Chevy compare to? Or a Nash Rambler? Or a Studebaker? Or a DeSoto?
I'd compare the Triplexes to Studebakers, as both were a bit quirky (maybe more than a bit, with respect to the Triplexes) and have never been duplicated since their demise. Come to think of it, Studebaker went belly-up at around the same time the Triplexes went off to Naporano's.
Considering that I've ridden it since it was brand new thousands of times, I can attest to it's performance in everyday use. Traindude is the technical expert. He has shown the R68 can go as fast as any other car. But they never do in real life. I don't understand the big deal about this. So it's sluggish. BFD.
Then you should try to get those people who make a big deal of it to easy up on the BBS' abuse lately.
Why? People like to lampoon the R68's obvious sluggishness. It's those who are too sensitive that are acting childish.
I believe the R68's have the same top speed as any other car, and reliability is good. I'm merely saying the R68's heaviness does influence acceleration and braking. If you put (if you could) M-1/3's on the subway which are heavier than all the subway cars we'd be calling them Hippos as well. M-1's would accelerate slower, have trouble climbing the steep grades of the subway lines, and probably be called "Hippos" also. In reality M-1s/3's run on the LIRR which is much straighter and level than subway track, and with stations further apart the M-1's do not give the impression they are slow.
The R68 would be a good car on a system with gentle grades, curves, and more space between stations. But since the NYCS has lots of curves, timers, and more closely packed stations than the LIRR, the R68's do function a bit slower in those situations. Still if on straight level track the 68's probably wouldn't be much slower at all.
Here's an idea. Since SIRT stations are further apart, how about we put some R68's on there? There are no timers, steep grades,etc so the R68's would do better there.
The M-1's do accelerate more slowly than subway cars. I dont remember what the horsepower-weight ratio is on them.. (or the resistive-grid settings, as per Jeff H's excellent post)
"I Believe..............."
It's amazing how many incorrect, mis-informed, illogical statements you have managed to include into one posting. Don't feel self conscious about being so poorly informed. You can always point to yourself as a horrible example.
Train Dude, I believe the Friar's Club has an opening for someone like you.
Dan
NOTHING onm today's NYC subway reaches its potential in real life! The whole whole subway is sluggish, thanks to timers and speed limits and whatever.
:-) Andrew
Chris, where are your statistics? Have you actually measured the time from start to stop, say in the 6th Av. dash (quite fast), say 10 times each, for an R68 and a slant R40? One subtalker, Todd Glickman, reported that he did, without finding any slowness to the R68. Have you or has anyone else on this board done the same? I think there are too many "seems" and "feels" here. I live too far from New York to be a frequent rider and am thus unable to compare. But please, let's back up how it "feels" with some actual operational timing data.
The R-68's ride smoother. For the Last Time:
R-68's ARE NOT SLOW!!!! THEY CAN OUTRUN YOU, MANHATTAN TRAFFIC AND A PACK HIPPOS (which aren't really that slow)
R-40's SUCK. THEY RIDE ROUGH AND DO NOT HAVE A GOOD MDBF!
While the slanted 40's may not offer a good ride, one thing they sure are is fast and reliable. I've never seen one break down (ignore that unlocked door incident that happened several months ago). Those cars deserve more respect than they get, and they're certainly better/faster on the top end than their flat-fronted counterparts.
>>...one thing they sure are is fast and reliable....<<
Fast, yes. Reliable? No. I've never been on a train that broke down except for an R-46 with door problems. However, R-46's have MDBF's in the 150,000's. The R-40's do not run on weekends. The R-40's are also nearing their day of doom. I will not cry over them: The R-32's, the best car ever (but not my favorite) will still be around for quite a while. The R-143's/160's will mean NEW B div cars. The R-68's will get an overhaul. I actually like the idea of getting rid of those old cars that ride rough and have poor MDBF's. And even w/o poor MDBF's, the older cars are more expensive too maintain.
don't r40's still run on the L line? i'm not sure, i haven't touched that line in a while. While i am for the replacement of old cars, i sure will miss them. and only one breakdown? can i steal your lucky charm?
Yes, R-40S/M R-42's still run on the L. There are also a small # of slants on the N line (I've seen them 2 days in a row now..) and sometimes a train of slants can be seen on the Z line.
Question: Will you miss the redbirds? You haven't been here, and you didn't see some of my older posts...
definitely. Those old redbird cars are still great. Those grabhandles have saved me so many times, and their sideways arrangement is a lot more forgiving than a piece of welded steel pipe. and the undifferentiated seats mean no one hackles with you when you put your stuff down beside you. and that window up in front, am i gonna miss that! and their extremely jerky ride nature has kept me awake many a time....
Roy
Well, I hate the birds. The loud squealing was always annoying. It's also bad on the hearing and makes listening to a CD impossible. I also hate the Grab handles. It limits where you can put your hand. Further, if someone grabs the one closest to you, your in trouble.
Finally, I hate those hot summer days where you have sweaty people sandwiched into your ribcage with no A/C. And about that jerky ride: You wouldn't need grab handles if the ride was smooth. I want the R-142's to get here... NOW!
i can't believe you're saying this! have you ever tried grabbing a greasy horizontal pole? not funnn! ever peered out of one of those polarized windows (they are polarized, right?)? and let's just assume MOST redbirds ac's work. yes, i have been on 142a's already who's AC's didn't work. sad huh? what's more, although the boids jerk yo uaround, the 142's still use more force than they do... lose your grip on their greasy poles and you go fly-ying. and besides... the redbirds give you a feeling of flying (yes, flying shouldn't have drops and bumps and shakes and rattles), while the 142's are cold and mechanical. redbirds, live on!
Cheers! The redbirds, while venerable, have served their purpose and now must go. Do you have any idea how hard it is to sleep on the Flushing line? Leaning back you hit all sorts of sharp pointy things or the window, leaning forward you tend to sway into other passengers' laps because of the jerky ride.
As for A/C, I really don't believe that it exists. I mean, supposedly they had it retrofitted. But I've never noticed. Indeed; it's often worse inside the train then out.
Dan
Some Flushing cars have no A/C at all.
That would be the single unit R-33s.
What I want to see is to have 100 R40M to swap a mate with 100 R40 slants. Then run them in 4 car sets. The resultant trains would not look as hideous.
let's remember just how old these cars are...
Probably will need some Viagra to any mating...
Not as old as SOME cars still in service. Slants are 33 years old; R40M are 32 years.
wayne
They got 6 years to go. The R160 test trains aren't due until 42 months after Oct 2001. Then mass-production, then retire the R38's.
To correctly answer the question there are about 56 Slant R40 running out of Eastern Division. Yes, I have seen ONE consist running on the "Z", normally it runs on the "L".
On the weekends, Southern Division slants sleep except for a few consists which run on the "B" (one or two) and the "N".
wayne
Wayne:
Is MU 4351 still in ENY?
I understand that there are some very nice message boards in Greenland where they are still interested in this question
John.
Hmmm. You took time to post it, so you must be from greenland. You can visit that board if you want to post some more. I will not stand by and watch messages with titles such as "Slant R40s. Still Good and Fast.", just float by. If you are bored with the topic, don't post on it. But you posted, so you must still be interested. I'm sure some people would still argue with me about cell phones. Even if they are from greenland.
I am curious as to the MDBF for the R40S and R42, and the R68 and R68A.
Do you want the one month MDBF? the 12 month moving MDBF? The MDBF by car class? The MDBF by shop fleet? Do you want the line MDBF? Please, I will give you the MDBF numbers in any of the above catagories if you can explain what MDBF actually means.
MDBF by car class is what I am looking for, but please provide all Mean Distance Between Failure numbers for all categories that you have.
Don't test me on subway lingo, I was likely riding the els while you were still playing with your Matchboxes. :)
GreenSignL says the R-40s are faster than .............
J trainloco is quoting mdbf statistics................
People actually believe that Sharpton is starving himself in jail.
Please Caz, beam me up - the nuts are all loose tonight.
BTW: I have it on good authority that Sharpton's people are trying a vnew twist on an old trick. They are trying to bake a Chocolate cake into a hack-saw blade.
People actually believe that Sharpton is starving himself in jail.
And how many years will he have to starve himself before we see any difference?
Is he allowed to wear that stupid medallion?
Inquiring minds want to knowNOT!
He reported the medallion missing after Stephen Pagonis won the deformation judgement from Sharpton for the Tawana Brawley thing.
Sorry to interject in this one - I've MET Al Sharpton, and I've worked with Al Sharpton back when the state of New York had a C-Span like television channel called NY-SCAN up in Albany that beamed legislative hearings to as many cable systems as we could reach. It was operated by the now defunct "New York State Commission on Cable Television" in Smallbany. I was the chief engineer and built the place. Al came to town as often as he could to advocate for a lot of people with zero voice in politics.
Al is actually a humble man in person, but turn on that camera tally light and tell him he's on, he crusades for what he believes in, in full Kingfish blowhard style. That's what GETS listened to, like it or not. Al knows this, but I'm convinced of the man's sincerity having worked with him and talked to him BEFORE the lights lit up. What annoys you is his STYLE (I hope it isn't the points he's trying to make) but his STYLE is necessary to get the attention of the newsertainment industry in the first place, a carnival barker inviting you into the tent for a floorshow where real issues and concerns of folks without any voice at all in politics might be heard. He's VERY pursuasive if you're willing to pay attention. And he's RIGHT.
I'm a bit offended by the ridiculing of Al Sharpton in a time and place where getting the message out about folks left behind by the NASDAQ carnival is lost in the background noise and the man is only doing what he does to grab the spotlight BECAUSE the newsertainment industry finds him a convenient Joe Palooka to swat at. He STILL tries to get his message out to the mainway. We've talked about this and it's sad that a man as sincere and knowledgeable as he has STILL has to play Step'n Fetchitt just to be heard at all.
Sorry, but the Sharpton bashing is trult unwarranted. Spend some time with him and talk to him before you judge him.
For what does NY-SCAN stand? New York State Cable Affairs Network?
C-SPAN is Cable-Sattelite Public Affairs Network.
Howdy ... Paturkey killed it when he was elected, within weeks of taking over for Padre Mario. Now Bruno and Silver are trying to resurrect it, finding that they can't. It covered legislative stuff when we were invited, but it was largely "talking heads" and state agencies doing outreach stuff and plenty of public hearings. Dry as sand.
NY-SCAN meant "New York's State and Community Affairs Network" and was seen only in the greater Capital District area on several cable systems that we could see over the horizon by Microwave (14 GHz) since the money was never put up to put it on a half transponder satellite so it could be seen in the city. The reason it was killed was because it couldn't be seen in the city. Political decision making works like that ...
Yeah - well back in the 60s I met Nelson Rockerfeller. From that point on I felt he was the best thing since melted swiss cheese. You can be in awe of sharpie if you wish and I will not tell you that it's unwarranted but I will continue to poke fun at the buffoon. He's got too much baggage and has created too many wounds with my community. The racist remarks revolving around the tawana brawley affair. The remarks about white interlopers and the burning of jewish owned businesses. Now one other observation. Every politicial is fair game here. Bush is referred to as the Shrub. The clintons have taken their share. Mark greene, Cuomo - you name them and they've gotten it at one time or an other. You don't have to join in but please - he's no sacred cow as far as i'm concerned.
We can agree to disagree here ... when I was a kid, they broke ground in Albany county for a Division For Youth facility near Rensselaerville called "Camp Cass" (it still exists) and Rocky came out with a shovel, got to meet HIM then (it was late 1950's somewhere, it's in the public record if anyone cares for a specific). My folks and I lived in the Bronx, but we came up here to a small vacation home every summer. Probably why I moved out of the city to here.
Last summer, we won a "lunch with Senator Joe Bruno" on a PBS local station auction and gave him an earful about our own interest, "high tech" and also filled him in on why "rent control" is important to its varying constituencies ... bottom line, I'm not impressed by anointed porcine officers. Saw too many of them at NY-SCAN as well. I say all this just so you know that I'm not awestruck by "stars" ... in fact I tend to despise politicians and would-be anointeds.
When Sharpton swaggered in, my first reaction was "Oh geez ... here we go" until I ended up yakking with him for a half hour while we waited for some other "guests" to arrive for the show. The man is very intelligent and very sincere. The Tawana mess was engineered by Vernon and Mason. Sharpton merely saw it as a podium and got burned himself in that deal. But I digress.
Mark Greene is an *IDIOT* (yes, I've endured personal conversation with him as well and unlike Sharpton, the lights are on and nobody's home) ... Andrew Cuomo I've listened to and haven't been terribly impressed. The man *I* want to see as governor is Carl McCall, having worked with him personally too. Paturkey, Patooey ... just my own opinions mind ya, but I've had to breathe air with most of them.
And as to Shrub, let's face it - he's an IDIOT as surely as you can say "Abe Hirschfeld" ...
'm not impressed by anointed porcine officers.
Anti-swinite! :(:))
Heh. Wasn't me who chose a handle that ties directly to the sausage makers ya know. I'd apply for asylum. :)
I cant comment on the mans sincerity.
However, he is a public figure and public figures are judged by their actions in public. Rev Sharptons public, assinine buffoonery I believe has harmed his constituents and the causes he has embraced rather than helping them.
I hope that he can find a more effective method of campaigning.
John.
Agreed ... the REAL problem here though is unless you put on a sidewalk act with a ten piece band, news directors won't bother to do the story. New York has a lot of advocacy organizations with erudite leaders and spokespeople ... can you think of the last time you saw any of these? But like rubberneckers at a car wreck, these same news directors WILL show up to bag a Sharpton photo op. Wonder if Vieques would have gotten camera time this time around if it weren't for Sharpton getting busted?
The problem is -- and this goes for all politicians and political activists on the left and right -- where is the line between them coming up with media events to get on camera to promote issues that aren't being dealt with otherwise, and where they come up with media issues simply to get on camera to inrease their own political power, with the issues being a secondary concern?
That said, back on topic -- what would the speed advanatage/disadvantage be in a race between an R-40 containing Al Sharpton vs. a Sharpton-less R-68 or vice-versa with a Sharpton-free R-40 vs. an R-68 containing Al? And would their be an even greater effect if the course involved included the treacherous Manny B climb/crossing? Discuss among yourselves.
Since there's really no way to bring it on topic and since I don't want to violate the rules here, let's just suffice it to say that the media doesn't handle important social and political issues any better than they handle facts with mass transit related issues. Used to be reporters were issued functional crap detectors. They don't even have a bogus flashing lunar aspect these days. :)
Being partially based in a background in physics -- yeah, about as much as Moe, Larry and Curly -- I'd hazzard a guess that ANY subway train containing a pre-hunger strike Al Sharpton would lose in a race.
;-D
A Big SHOUT OUT to Selkirk Kev.....I'm back!
BMTman
DEWD! Honk-honk! :)
Well, say what you will about Sharpton, he's teaching the teacher how it's done. Jesse (Hymie-town) Jackson is so desperate to get arrested for attention, some say he's got a bad case of PENAL ENVY
>>> I believe has harmed his constituents <<<
Webster's defines a constituent as "one who authorizes another to act as agent". The main complaint about the Reverend Al is that he will appoint himself as agent without waiting for authorization from anyone, and leave those he purports to represent to either ratify what he says or does or repudiate him.
To put it into transit terms, if at the time the TWU is negotiating for a new contract, someone without any connection with the union starts getting a lot of press notice claiming that the workers need a raise, and better working conditions, and claiming the TA is an unfair employer, it may complicate the negotiations, but the union leaders cannot denounce him without looking like they are selling out their members. Those union members are the constituents of the union leaders, not the interloper who is making all the noise.
Tom
Ah, whadya expect form people who still think he wears the medallion. (he stopped wearing it some time ago)
Peace,
ANDEE
I was quite surprised by the response actually, especially considering that Rudy and his reichsbunker hunnys seem to have wiped Al right off the news horizon. But I digress. Regardless, the man is worth the time to sit down and shoot the sheet with for anyone who ever gets the opportunity to do so. He's quite articulate and just plain NICE to talk to.
>>>He's quite articulate and just plain NICE to talk to. <<<
Yes, I am quite aware of that, having met him once and spoken to him (AND Jesse Jackson) on WBLS on another occasion, a truly decent individual.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, Kev, I agree.
I read the bio that came out a couple of years ago on Rev. Al. Turns out he's a Brooklynite so he can't be all that bad...:-)
Interesting background: I always thought that it was a running joke that the "Godfather of Soul" James Brown was Al Sharpton's "Godfather" -- but indeed that IS the truth!
BMTman
Speaking of the good reverend - how's the hunger strike doing? 3 days without food and I bet he's wishing this time he had kept his big mouth shut.
Wouldn't be surprised ... I mean I remember Adam Clayton Powell. There was another guy that knew what it took to get the media to come out and dance. And in the end, they gave HIM the shaft too. It's a shame that getting camera time at all requires the prowess of a carnival barker but Al doesn't care what people think of HIM as long as they're willing to sit there and hear it. That's one of the qualities about him that I admired in talking to him. The lack of ego and knowing that you have to park that in order to get things done sometimes and to hell with what other people think. :)
Caz......Dolowitz?
Is there another?
I guess the proper respose would be:
"WHO WANTS TUH KNOW!!!!!??"
Very well put, Dave. The dialog from that movie is classic. My favorite - Dick O'Neil, "Screw the goddam passengers! Wadda they want for their lousy 35 cents, to live for ever?"
He came up with another gem later: Whaddaya mean, you haven't got any buses? Go out and hijack some!
The R-68's ride smoother.
For the Last Time: R-68's ARE NOT SLOW!!!! THEY CAN OUTRUN YOU, MANHATTAN TRAFFIC AND A PACK HIPPOS (which aren't really that slow)
R-40's SUCK. THEY RIDE ROUGH AND DO NOT HAVE A GOOD MDBF!
In everyday use the R68 is noticebly slower than the R40. The R68 is not a slow car by design. They will never be as fast as the R40 unless they undergo some modification to ease their sluggishness (which brings us back to field shunting).
Absolutley nobody who rides both cars would state the R68 is as fast as the R40 in everday use. Why? Because it aint.
And, for the last time, that fact doesn't make the R68 an inferior car by any means.
>>In everyday use the R68 is noticebly slower than the R40.<<
No it ain't. I've ridden both trains on the same stretch of track, and they seemed to go the same speed. This 'noticeable' thing is wrong.
>>And, for the last time, that fact doesn't make the R68 an inferior car by any means.<<
1. No need to have incorrect facts.
2. Some people sure act like it.
It's like talking to a brick wall with you. So I won't bother anymore.
Who else thinks the R68 is as fast as the R40 in passanger use?
Perhaps your the brick wall. If you understood any laws of reason, you'd know that if 2 trains have the SAME acceleration and the SAME top speed, then it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to achieve different speeds if both motormen 'wrap' it, unless one's on an upgrade or downgrade. If you THOUGHT about it, it would make sense. But you aren't thinking about it.
Who else thinks the R68 is as fast as the R40 in passanger use?
Most of us... all of us who can do basic math, at least.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah ... but the question is ... do the timers actually ALLOW them to get up to balancing speed? Where's those Hayden planetarium guys with their police radar? They could settle the whole question with "actual road numbers" from the 81st St platform once again ... "for science."
81st St. is about as good a place as any to watch expresses go by. As a kid, I would see R-1/9s howling ass on the D, R-10s on the A thundering past in a blaze of teal and white, and R-32s streaking by effortlessly. You couldn't count the cars fast enough - onetwothreefourfivesixseveneightnineten. More recently, it's like: one......two.......three.......four............five.............six...........se..ven....................eight.
That does it ... I'm going to talk to my assemblyman, John Faso and see if we can get rockets on those things. However, I'm likely to get "there's SUBWAYS in NYC?!?! Since when?" out of the boy. We'll see.
>>You couldn't count the cars fast enough - onetwothreefourfivesixseveneightnineten. More recently, it's like: one......two.......three.......four............five.............six...........se..ven....................eight.<<
2 reasons:
1. Those wonderful timers slow things down.
2. It takes longer for a 75ft. car to pass something than a 60 ft. car.
Quite true. It would be nice if the 75-footers could go by at a one-two-three-four-five-six-seven-eight pace. In the immortal words of Danny and the Juniors, leisurely transit is here to stay.:-(
Agree that they are garbage.
We had them on the F when I was a kid. I was envious of the R32's on the B, D, and N because the 32's moved faster.
We need to time 1 T/O over a period of 2-3 days on the N Line. It uses many different equipment including the R40 and R68. Not even a few days is needed. T/Os have multiple runs daily.
So what. Take it from somebody who has been pounding the road for 20 years: one slant R40 consist is different from the next; one R68 consist is different from the next. Why? Because you may have a dead motor in one consist and not the other, you may have a motor which is not "putting out" what it should, you may have no dynamic brake on one or more cars.
Which is EXACTLY why everyone on this board is not in the position of judging the performance of subway cars.
Which is EXACTLY why no one on this board is not in the position of judging the performance of subway cars.
Yeah I also rode the Q today from 57/6th to Brighton Beach. Yup, those Slant R40s sure are fast and stop on a dime. And of course we dusted a few lumbering D's too. Plus I love the dash between 34th and W4th, and the one also from 7th ave to Prospect Park.
Don't you just love it when you get a speedy "Q" to whiz past a cluster of "D"s? I remember when the "Q" used R68A cars - back in 1996 I took a few rides on them and they were respectable, perhaps no more so than a maximum of 40 MPH - enough to pass the locals but not equal to the speed of MOST R40s. Now and again I get a "Q" operator who likes to play it close to the vest, but for most, it's a chance to run and they run the Slants as fast as is allowable, sometimes more so.
Did you get the north motor # so I can put it in the "Hall Of Speed"?
wayne
The only way a Q can whiz past a "cluster" of Ds is if something goes wrong with the schedule (+ or - 6 minutes.) It's too much exageration.
The north motor that I rode yesterday was 4293.
BMTJeff
Let's all remember why the Slants are on the Q in the first place. They are there because the Q is a part time line and one transit manager felt it was the only way to preserve what still today reamins the Worst B division car. They were put onto a part-time line so that they could be used sparingly. Alas, the slants would have preceeded the redbirds to Davey Jones Locker if there had been no shortage of B division cars.
At the same time, let's also bear in mind that the R-68s - each individual car, runs more than 6,300 miles per month. That's more than 1,000 more than the slants.
Cheer up because the slants will yet achieve another speed record. They'll exceed 60 MPH as they sink to the ocean bottom - the sooner the better.
A Hall of Speed, eh? I can guess a few members right now: R-6-2 1233 and R-10 3080. How many cars have you enshrined?
7th Avenue to Prospect Park was for me the longest ride between stations when I was a little boy. Hell the next stop was where we got off to go to Ebbets Field and we couldn't wait to get to that station on the Brighton #1. For that reason it seemed like eons before t he train finally whooshed out of the tunnel into God's brilliant sunshine and we finally made it. I remember those days like it was yesterday.
Hey, Fred, did you ever take a Franklin-Nassau Special to Coney Island, BMT standards notwithstanding? It had a nice, long nonstop run from 59th St. to Stillwell Ave.
Was at Hoboken Terminal briefly earlier today and while wandering around, I saw that NJ Transit has put up a poster describing the Bergen Tunnel Rehabilitation project, with photographs and a timeline mapping out the plan of work progression. Overall, it was quite informative, but one caption raised a question.
It mentioned that the tunnel's height will be increased to clear larger trains. Does this indicate that NJ Transit is planning on, or considering purchasing bi-level coaches? I think it's been mentioned before but no solid plans have been announced.
Anybody know any more?
Thanks.
There has been a take-me on some NE Corridor trains: bilevels are on order for 2004.
John.
They are definitely going to purchase bilevels, 200 of them. They just haven't figured out a way to design them such that they fit in the Hudson Tubes.
And NJ commuters are set to enter a new era of discomfort. They should save some money and buy some cattle cars (as goldola cars would be unfit for most types of weather.)
On the contrary. The bilevels on the LIAR are the most comfortable thing in commuter rail travel. Much better than that horrid crap they have for electric equipment.
I don't know. NJT Arrows and Comet IV's are pretty comfortable and you can't beat the headroom.
They have 2-2 seating don't they?
Bi-levels would add capacity.
Arrows and Comets have 3-2 seating - and it's not bad 3-2 at that. Don't know how that compares to the bi-levels capacity-wise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If they were bilevels similar to the LIRRs design I would not worry about the comfort level. However, the fact that they have to redesign the whole concept of a bilevel to get it to fit into the Penn Station tubes makes me afraid NJT will get something similar to the LIRR's original bilevels.
Anyway, with the exception of the Comet IB and Comet I cab I find all current NJT equipment to be quite comfortable and the 3-2 seating accommodates crowding quite well.
Though, I've only ridden out of / into Hoboken during rush hour. From what I've seen on some trains out of Penn station there is an urgent need of increased capacity.
When this work is completed, will trains go through the area faster than they do now?
This might come across as a rant, but I don't want it to, really.
Last weekend, both Saturday and Sunday, I went on field trips in Jersey City and rode the PATH each day, to Pavonia Avenue Saturday and Exchange Place on Sunday. Both stations are sparkling clean and are deep stations: the escalators were working perfectly, and I'd imagine they do so every day. On Sunday, I rode the brand sparkling new Hudson Bergen light rail (I suppose the term trolley is not PC, for whatever reason).
I mention this because escalators in NYC subways are so often out of order. Part of that is because they're old, and because escalators are difficult to maintain. But the one from the Flushing Line platform to GCT has been out for months. If you're old or seriously out of shape it's a lot of ramps and steps you have to use. Even when it was WORKING, it was a mess with a temporary floor in front of the steps.
I asked the Jersey City tour guide I was with if the HBLR met with a lot of NIMBY opposition. He said it certainly did, but Jersey City ignored the protests and rammed the thing through.
What is the problem in the so-called greatest city on earth? Why is every plan met with defeat? Other 'lesser' cities can get things done...like build new trolley lines and maintain clean stations with escalators that work.
www.forgotten-ny.com
New York is kinda NIMBY friendly compared to NJ. In New Jersey they get new rails, roads, and malls built pretty easily. But when is the last time NYC or Long Island saw a new mall?
Jersey Malls like Garden State Plaza and Willowbrook are so much better than what we have on Long Island. The best we got is Roosevelt Field and that aint sayin much. They don't even have a Cinnabon!
I guess New York had different zoning codes that make development harder, plus politicians that are sympathetic to NIMBY's.
FYI, Garden State Plaza is approx. the same age as Roosevelt Field, Willowbrook is about 10 years newer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah I knew that but they got like 3 malls in Paramus alone, more than any one area of Long Island has.
They don't even have a Cinnabon!
Have you ever even been to a mall that has every possible store? And is it always the mall management's fault that they don't have a particular type of store?
You should save your money on food that actually has nutritional value of even some kind and not that crap.
I think that last comment was made to be humurous, Pig.
Considering how much he bitches here about the lack of Wendy's in Flushing, I was sure he wasn't.
Maybe I should complain about the relative lack of White Castles in Philly? :0)
Are there that many White Castles around anywhere? I mean there are like 30 McDonald's for one White Castle.
You are correct. McDonald,s knocked White Castle off the mountain top. There's one in Bayside (Northern Blvd at Bell Blvd.), and I've seen one in Philly.The burgers have a unique taste. If you want to taste that kind of burger today, you can't get it from anybody else. Ditto for McDonald's. It's not great for you, but once in a while...
I once recreated a White Castle burger once at home. I cooked some onions on a grill, and put a ground beef patty on top, and let it cook through. It came out pretty close, actually,
They don't even have a Cinnabon!
Have you ever even been to a mall that has every possible store? And is it always the mall management's fault that they don't have a particular type of store?
You should save your money on food that actually has nutritional value of even some kind and not that crap.
I'm sure Cinnabon isn't the worst thing you could eat when it comes to nutritional value; it's probably better for you than Drano or Clorox ... then again, maybe not.
I have a particular loathing of Cinnabon due to an unhappy experience several years ago. While driving from Connecticut to Florida, I stopped at a New Jersey Turnpike rest area and got one of the large size Cinnabons. No sooner did I finish scarfing it down (yeah, that was my fault) than I began feeling as if I had been drinking wet cement. It was one of the most utterly gross and disgusting sensations I've ever had. It probably wasn't until Virginia that I began to feel even semi-human again.
So that's the last Cinnabon I'll ever have!
McDonald's makes me feel really sick, in fact the only fast food I can stomach is Wendy's. BK also makes me feel sick and tastes dried out. Hence by bitching about Wendy's in Flushing. But, I try to not hang out in Flushing because there is nothing good there anymore. Yeah Radio Shack closed, I mean RS is everywhere so something must be up. Also Chung Wah bookstore which has been there for years on Kissena avenue closed. That was the only non gaudy bookstore there (WJ and Chung Hwa are too upscale).
Of course I now only have burgers once a week and no more often, since too much red meat makes your LDL skyrocket, plus burgers sit heavy in the stomach, not good if you're doing some railfanning.
Some people do get motion sickness on trains (yeah I remember they closed a car on an R train I rode to Forest Hills because someone puked). The 75' cars do sway more than the others, so some people could get sick from that. I don't have motion sickness but do have a sensitive stomach, and almost always eat heavy fat laden foods like Cinnabons at home, not while I'm out traveling.
Of course I'll miss Flamers, they had good quality food at a good price, but since the Manhattan Mall food court closed I guess they are history. Now that's it's gone a rarely use the 34th/6th ave station anymore, or visit the MM.
I noticed tonight that Radio Shack in Brooklyn Heights closed, and that neighborhood, unlike Flushing, has no cheap direct-from-the-importer electronics stores to undercut it.
There must be a tolerance associated with fast food. I haven't had anything more than watered-down soda from McDonald's in more than two years, since virtually anything there gives me hives. Every few months, I might venture into a BK or Wendy's but always wind up feeling queasy.
Only half of the Manhattan Mall food court closed; interestingly enough, the booth where Flamers was is in the half that still exists, but it closed nonetheless. The same is true for Arthur Treacher's and a couple other establishments.
After taking the LIRR to NYC last week while walking past the Manhattan Mall (for my now rare visit to 34th/6th) I saw signs proclaiming the "New" Manhattan Mall. Seriously they must be joking! :-0
Arthur Treacher's is TOTALLY kaput now..the one in our local mall closed also.......
Arthur Treacher's is TOTALLY kaput now..the one in our local mall closed also.......
The one in the Smith Haven Mall's still open, sharing its space with a Pudgie's Chicken.
I've seen a few Arthur Treachers arround malls, like (I think) the Rockaway Square mall in New Jersey.
:-) Andrew
Yes, there is one in Rockaway Mall.
Also, possibly the last remaining Roy Rogers around for miles and miles exists in Livingston Mall.
There's an Arthur Treacher's in the Food Court area of the Gallery Mall in Philadelphia's Center City.
Of course I'll miss Flamers, they had good quality food at a good price, but since the Manhattan Mall food court closed I guess they are history.
It's a chain. I ate at one in the Westchester Mall.
Now that's it's gone a rarely use the 34th/6th ave station anymore, or visit the MM.
Which explains why the food court was closed.
Did any of you guys ever eat at a Hamburger Henry's (or similar)? Full pound sirloin burgers (not the extra lean type) with added bacon and cheese, cheese fries and milkshakes (enough cholesterol and fat to last you about six months).
Great tasting stuff, bad for you if you have gall bladder problems, good news for unemployed cardiologists...
good news for unemployed cardiologists
"Unemployed," in this context, means earning less than $250K/year.
Works for me.
Some people do get motion sickness on trains (yeah I remember they closed a car on an R train I rode to Forest Hills because someone puked). The 75' cars do sway more than the others, so some people could get sick from that. I don't have motion sickness but do have a sensitive stomach, and almost always eat heavy fat laden foods like Cinnabons at home, not while I'm out traveling.
Sitting or standing near the middle of the car tends to produce a smoother ride. That effect's even more pronounced on LIRR MU's.
Don't you just wish that "Gino's" was still around? The "Gino Giant" was better than The "Big Mac" and "Whopper" put together.
I don't remember Gino's, perhaps I was too young. Arby's wasn't bad, but I believe they have all closed. When I was young (in the 80s) I remember lots of great "fast food" type places to eat in that were good. Arby's was on of my favorite, they had a good roast beef sandwich and some great potato thing. You also had McMichaels for fish. There was Roy Rogers which had a good variety of food (chicken, burgers, and salad bar).And Wendy's had salad bars then. There's less options for "fast" food today. Most new places that have become popular are sit down resteruants such as Applebees, Outback Steakhouse,etc. You'd think with the booming eceonomy we've had you would've seen more self serve resteruants open.
Well NYC may have lots of self service resteruants, but many of them have limited seating. At lunchtime you have more of chance getting a seat on a D train than at a self serve resteruant in NYC.
Yeah, you could just take it out and eat in the subway, but aint that illegal?
I'm telling you ... if you want terrific fast food, California's the place to be ... Jack in the Box, El Pollo Loco, Del Taco and Carl's Jr. Now those places are 100% better than McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's etc.
terrific fast food ... Jack in the Box, El Pollo Loco, Del Taco and Carl's Jr.
Peter, what kind of magic weed have you been smoking? I can't speak about El Pollo Loco and Del Taco, having never been to either one, but both Jack in the Box (which was on the east coast at one time but retreated) and Carl's Jr. (which now owns Hardee's) are terrible! Greasy, slimy, tough - it's hard to make a hamburger that's both tough and greasy, but Carl's has managed to do it, and Jack in the Box is just plain nasty. I'll take Wendy's (for chicken, not burgers - their hamburgers are greasy too, although not as bad as some others) or Arby's, thanks, if I have to eat at such a place. Roy Rogers can be good, too, but it's kind of hit or miss with them. (The one in the Wheaton section of Silver Spring, Maryland is a definite miss, while one a few miles south of Havre de Grace is quite good.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wendy's used to be better some years back, but sadly they are starting to taste more like McDonald's.
Their hamburgers used to be MUCH bigger. And they used to have salad bars. Plus their new location near Penn station sucks. The old one near 34th and 7th was much larger than their new one on 34th near 8th.
Wendy's is becoming "cheapies". It won't fill me up like it used to.
I'll take chinese food most of the time, but I sure do miss a good burger. Too bad, at least here on the east coast a good burger will cost you an arm and a leg.
L.A. may not have that great of a transit system like NYC but when it come to burgers and fries L.A. has NY beat fair and square.
Their hamburgers used to be MUCH bigger.
Maybe that's because you were still growing up and perceived them as being larger... they have been 4 oz. patties since the beginning, and they still are.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not where I used to eat.
Anybody remember Fatburgers in Westwood (not far from Hamburger Hamlet).
Peter: ...terrific fast food...Jack in the Box...
Anon: Peter, what kind of magic weed have you been smoking? ...Jack in the Box (which was on the east coast at one time but retreated)...[is] terrible! ...Jack in the Box is just plain nasty.
Well, I seem to ring in on all the important issues, such as postal cities, the spelling of street names, and address numbers. So, here goes:
Impugn Jack's cuisine, will you? Now you've gone and done it! You are talking about my favorite restaurant of all time. They were simply the best.
I don't think I ever had a burger there, but the tacos were nothing short of orgasmic. The Taco Grande was a thing of beauty -- the beef and shell were deep-fried, and then the lettuce, tomato, and sour cream were added. The Jack's taco, like the White Castle burger, was a unique taste treat that cannot be duplicated anywhere else. And, contrary to the notion that the deep-frying made the tacos somehow "fake", a friend of mine from Mexico compares the taste of Jack's tacos to the taste of tacos he used to get back home from street vendors with carts.
The Jack's in Flushing on Northern Blvd. and 155th St. was the main spot for me and all of my friends from high school and college. The fact that it was open 24 hours made it very convenient. We got to know most of the people working there, and they always welcomed us, and packed the tacos really well for us.
Even after I left school and began living in Woodhaven, I would take my bike up to Flushing regularly. Eventually it became possible to get Jack's tacos at two Arby's locations in Jackson Heights, so I would sometimes go there, as well. Occasionally I even went out to the Jack's in Mineola, at Jericho Tpke. and Willis Ave. Rarely did a couple of weeks go by without my getting some of my beloved Taco Grandes. (And, it beautifully complemented the "magic weed" of which you speak, just as naturally as white wine complements chicken.)
Then came 1996.
One day during that fateful year, I rode my bike to the Arby's on Junction Blvd. just north of Roosevelt Ave., only to get there and find it boarded up. My sadness turned to shock when, a short time later, I went to Jack's in Flushing, where I was told that the place -- and, indeed, all Jack's restaurants -- would be closing up at the end of the week. So, I said my gustatory goodbyes there at my favorite restaurant. I even made one final trip out to Mineola.
And that was that. Or, so I thought.
One day two summers later, while I was riding out on Jericho Tpke. to the Westbury Music Fair in order to buy some tickets for my parents, I passed Willis Ave. in Mineola only to see -- JACK'S!
Wow! I went inside, and said that I had thought that Jack's had closed two years before. The folks there said that the original one had closed, but that this one had replaced it only a few weeks later.
I was amazed, realizing that I had gone two years without my favorite food, and all the while it was still available here. But, before I could get too happy, the person I was talking to said that, alas, this restaurant would be closing also, and at the end of that week.
Well, I was having some major mixed emotions that day! It was exhilarating to be eating a Taco Grande in 1998 after I had been certain that it was gone for good; but it was maddening to realize that I had squandered so much opportunity, and that it would indeed be gone for good very soon.
So, for the second time in three summers, I had to bid farewell to a source of culinary excellence. However, I consoled myself by remembering that at least I had had a second chance.
But, oh, man do I miss it! Let me stop before I get too emotional.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- The guy in Mineola also said that some people he knew hoped to open a new Jack's in Ridgewood by November of that year (1998), but I guess that must have fallen through, because I haven't seen any new Jack's in Ridgewood.
>>> You are talking about my favorite restaurant of all time. They were simply the best. <<<
You will be glad to know that Jack in the Box is alive and thriving. It is headquartered in San Diego and has 1,300+ company stores and 1,700+ franchise locations in 16 states. Now you have a reason to travel on your next vacation.
It started in Southern California, and the original architecture of its stores was a square box with the familiar puppet coming out of the roof. The stores had a few outside tables but were mainly drive through rather than eat at the location stores. And yes, the speaker for the drive-through lane was in the familiar round face.
During the big expansion of fast food chains, Jack in the Box became a subsidiary of Pepsico. Pepsico thought the puppet face was too undignified and retired it. They got rid of the old square stores (although many of the square buildings still exist as drive through donut shops) and increased the size of the stores with more inside seating and expanded the menu.
Some time later, Pepsico divested itself of Jack in the Box, and with great fanfare, the company announced that "Jack is back" and again started using the round headed character.
Although I consider their food only mediocre, I will eat at a Jack in the Box if one is handy, and their television advertizing is really humorous.
Tom
Yeah, I had heard that they were still active in many states in the west and south. Do they deep-fry the tacos in all of those locations? I would assume they do.
Well, enjoy it. New York is poorer for not having it.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Hate to post off topic but speaking of Taco's I have to give a plug for Taco John's Mexican fast food. Quite an item in Montana, believe it originated in Wyoming. THANKFULLY they don't deep fry the tacos,we have enough deep fried stuff in most of those establishments; Taco John's is indeed a fast food of choice for something different sometimes, and my body doesn't tell me I've had too much grease. I and a lot of other people have such a dietary problem.
Maybe you could be so lucky as to get them in NYC..or are some there already?
>>> Do they deep-fry the tacos in all of those locations? <<<
I cannot speak for anyplace other than Southern California, but here the Jack in the Box does not deep fry the tacos. They offer tacos on either a pre-formed hard shell or soft tortilla. Of course in Southern California there are so many real Mexican food outlets that I would not go to Jack for a taco.
BTW since a taco contains fresh lettuce, tomato, cheese, sour cream and guacamole sauce, I cannot imagine how it would be deep fried. There are deep fried burritos available though.
Tom
BTW since a taco contains fresh lettuce, tomato, cheese, sour cream and guacamole sauce, I cannot imagine how it would be deep fried.
Only the shell and meat are deep-fried; the other goodies are added later.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Boy. I'm glad no one brought up IN AND OUT Burgers
Yeah I'm jealous of you guys in SoCal, you got so much more fast food than we do. Carls Jr. and In and Out are two places I've heard about in the L.A. area.
If I wasn't a mass transit buff, afraid of earthquakes and crime maybe I'd want to be in the L.A. area. Hey are there mystical girls there?
P.S. No offense intended about the crime, just joking (it's all those car chases):-0
"Hey are there mystical girls there?"
Of course there are. Trouble is, these luscious SoCal babes want you to flash your Beemer or your Ferrari, not your R-142. Funny, isn't it - I mean the R-142 is ten times as expensive as a top of the line Beemer, even with all the extras...
Of course, the reason the girls' are mystical sometimes has to do with a friendly plastic surgeon. In some cases it's genetics (they waited so long in one particular line, the line handing out brains had already closed).
There's an Arby's at the Newport Centre Food Court.
And on 6th Avenue in the Village.
Maybe I'll try it next time I ride PATH (haven't rode PATH in over a year!)
Note American Pig's footnote if you don't want to cross under the Hudson. I forgot the one on Sixth. It's on the west side just north of Carmine.
just north of where 6th USED to start before the IND extended it.
Yes. That map you linked to was fascinating. It's ironic that upper West Broadway used to be called Fifth Avenue.
It's ironic that upper West Broadway used to be called Fifth Avenue.
Cars were allowed in Washington Square until 1958. Busses until 1959.
The Auto-Free Washington Square Park Movement
I remember that story well. I was thinking of you when I made my post.
They don't even have a Cinnabon!
In which case they might be worth visiting. I can't stand to even smell one of those places, the odor is just so strong as to be nauseating. They opened one in the service area on I-95 in Delaware a few years back; as a result I stop in Maryland instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The corruption here in NYC is so massive that public structures ar no longer built to last. In fact, they're built to break after about a year.
Why else would the taxes be higher than at any time in our country's history, while the infrastructure falls apart?
The corrupt construction Unions in NYC are the problem I agree,
But in Jersey City, we have a great history of corrupt politicians, and much less accountable politicians as well. The HBLR NIMBYs had no case, as the development of the waterfront area, with all the back offices and such, is of great help to all the NIMBYs property values, which until recently, were very low, with rotting piers, junkyards, and the putrid Morris Canal Basin all taking their toll.
As a recent immigrant to JC from Brokklyn, I see the same thing back in Brooklyn, where people protested the building off a PARK on the downtown waterfront! Are they kidding!!! Too much traffic??? Yes they would much rather have decreipt, crumbling piers instead of lush greenspace.
I'm all for ramming these types of projects through.
PPS
I agree with you.
The most common, core element in NIMBY appears to be not always the project itself, but the NIMBY's identification of "outsiders" or, generally, "they" which are not of "us." They think of themselves as the sole spokespersons, or defenders of their neighborhood, where project supporters are "sell-outs." Anybody not living in the immediate vicinity who supports it is obviously a greedy, evil, self-serving, perverted slime bucket who should be cast off to the ocean in a leaky rowboat.
"They" could be perceived as entirely of a different skin color or ethnic origin, moral values, religious origin or economic values. An upper economic class white NIMBY thinks black low-lifes will avail themselves of the project; a middle or lower-income black NIMBY thinks whitey is out to commit black genocide with the project. And so on.
What happened to that inscription that our Statue of Liberty holds out to the world "Give us your..." I don't want us to ever lose that spirit...(???)
Nice job of covering both sides of an argument.
Can anyone remember movies showing all the "haves" lived in fairly new homes except for those with old mansions and da po' folks lived in the old houses and slums. Now you see New York movies with the yuppies living in the old buildings which are in nice shape.
So gentrification makes nice out of places that otherwise would have remained slums or been burned out shells. Too bad too many "regular" people can't afford to live in too many places though.
Don't anyone take it racially....its all economics. Unfortunately on a national level NIMBYism and excesses of environmentalism are causing some serious problems.
>>> What happened to that inscription that our Statue of Liberty holds out to the world "Give us your..." <<<
It was declared "no longer operative" back in the Nixon administration.
Tom
Y got a chuckle out of me there, Tom!
As a recent immigrant to JC from Brokklyn, I see the same thing back in Brooklyn, where people protested the building off a PARK on the downtown waterfront!
Are they kidding!!! Too much traffic??? Yes they would much rather have decreipt, crumbling piers instead of lush greenspace.
The people in Brooklyn were afraid that Those People would walk through their neighborhood on the way to the park.
"I asked the Jersey City tour guide I was with if the HBLR met with a lot of NIMBY opposition"
Kevin,
Have the NIMBYs accepted HBLR or are they still stewing in their ivory towers ?
On escalators in the TA, There is probably a lot of mechanical breakdowns and only a skeleton crew running around repairing them . Also maybe some vandals are hitting the emergency stop buttons to show their compassion for people who are forced to climb steps !
Bill "Newkirk"
"On escalators in the TA, There is probably a lot of mechanical breakdowns and only a skeleton crew running around repairing them . Also maybe some vandals are hitting the emergency stop buttons to show their compassion for people who are forced to climb steps !"
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
You "hit the nail on the head." Transit stations should be built to take heavy abuse, and the MTA bears some responbsibility here. But let's face it, in New York, there are people who purposefully:
-Shatter windows, scratch them, jam doors, rip up paneling.
-Put foreign objects on escalators to try to get them to jam.
-Smear graffitti everywhere and try to break lighting.
We need more effective measures to keep that from happening.
Transit stations should be built to take heavy abuse, and the MTA bears some responbsibility here. But let's face it, in New York,
there are people who purposefully:
-Shatter windows, scratch them, jam doors, rip up paneling.
-Put foreign objects on escalators to try to get them to jam.
-Smear graffitti everywhere and try to break lighting.
We need more effective measures to keep that from happening.
And the New York subway is the only place that has to deal with vandalism and abuse? Go to any suburban shopping mall on a Saturday evening and take a look at some of the teenagers you'll see hanging around. And try to tell me that they don't enjoy vandalizing anything and everything. Yet malls don't have scratched windows and permanently broken escalators.
Your points are well-taken. But malls are private property, and it's easier to kick people out of them.
People can be kicked out of public property, too. Depends on the nature of the public property. (Try visiting the local jail, if you think all public property is the same. Or City Hall, for that matter.) Legally, the TA has the same right to refuse to do business with an undesireable that a privately owned railroad has.
Of course, politics being what it is in this town, . . . .
Malls quantifiably make money (though their total economic impact is uncertain -- would we be more prosperous or less prosperous with no malls?). Subways quantifiably lose money (though their total economic impact is uncertain -- the city could not operate without them).
My fear is that the folks in charge have no motivation to see things get fixed because "the subways will only lose money anyway".
To be fair, I think that PATH also had the luxury of some station renovations, where they could build decent escalator banks (Exchange Place & WTC come immediately to mind). This means that taking one escalator out of service isnt a big deal.
I take the WTC path and there is frequently one escalator undergoing maintenance there.
On the other hand, I take the N/R to Court Street in Brooklyn. There has been no apparent activity on the escalators at 5 WTC after the fire, except to board them up (and then paint the sheetrock).
At Court Street, there is frequently only one of the escalators working from the N/R mezzanine (and when they stop one, they dont always think that the remaining escalator should be going up).
Perhaps the MTA should have Kiley back from London, now that he has had a chance to see how a subway system should install escalators. :-)
John.
Path's WTC station was brand new, not a rehab.
More than a decade later, we built 6 new stations. In all of them thre is always at least one escalator OOS.
I think I know what the problem is. Path and NYC have the same exact number of people devoted to escalator repair.
What is the problem in the so-called greatest city on earth? Why is every plan met with defeat? Other 'lesser' cities can get things done...like build new trolley lines and maintain clean stations with escalators that work
Cowardly politicians, lazy redundant bureaucrats, greedy unions, ignorant voters, limousine-liberal media outlets .... the list goes on and on.
(What is the problem in the so-called greatest city on earth? Why is every plan met with defeat? Other 'lesser' cities can get things done...like build new trolley lines and maintain clean stations with escalators that work )
(Cowardly politicians, lazy redundant bureaucrats, greedy unions, ignorant voters, limousine-liberal media outlets .... the list goes on and on.)
I think your list of responses is off the mark. There are two problems -- money and the decisionmaking process.
As for money, New York's Medicaid spending is off the charts. It's debts are also huge, thanks to all those folks who ran them up and moved away. In exchange for its massive Medicaid spending, the City's representatives in Albany agree to help support a huge public sector in the rest of the state (NYC's public sector is smaller than average outside of health and social services). NY has so many cops and corrections officers that the cost of policing is double the national average, even though cops are underpaid. The cost of "Tier 1" Lindsay pensions is stil so huge that the city's pension contributions are way above average, despite lousy pensions (relative to the private sector)for new employees. And, NYC is getting ripped off worse than average at the state level (Just about EVERYONE is getting rippped off to an extent).
As for the review process, the legal system gave everyone a veto, and provided an incentive to sue and hold things up in exchange for extorting a payoff. That's the game people have learned to play.
There are two problems -- money and the decisionmaking process.
As for money, New York's Medicaid spending is off the charts. It's debts are also huge, thanks to all those folks who ran them up and moved away. In exchange for its massive Medicaid spending, the City's representatives in Albany agree to help support a huge public sector in the rest of the state (NYC's public sector is smaller than average outside of health and social services). NY has so many cops and corrections officers that the cost of policing is double the national average, even though cops are underpaid. The cost of "Tier 1" Lindsay pensions is stil so huge that the city's pension contributions are way above average, despite lousy pensions (relative to the private sector)for new employees. And, NYC is getting ripped off worse than average at the state level (Just about EVERYONE is getting rippped
off to an extent).
As for the review process, the legal system gave everyone a veto, and provided an incentive to sue and hold things up in exchange for extorting a payoff. That's the game people have learned to play.
I'll modify my earlier list. The greedy politicians et al. are just symptoms. The real underlying problem - New Yorkers themselves. If the voters would demand change in the state's destructive policies, and vote for candidates who'll make these changes, things might improve. But no, the voters continue to display cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute mindless herd behavoir, this is what we get.
(If the voters would demand change in the state's destructive policies, and vote for candidates who'll make these changes, things might improve. But no, the voters continue to display cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute mindless herd behavoir, this is what we get.)
When NYU puts up my tabulation and explanation of census of governments numbers, I'll let you know. Now that I have more data, I'd have to say Paul Matus is right -- the rest of the state is @#($Q@(#^ed too.
For example, total state and local government taxes as share of personal income are as high in Suffolk County as in NYC! You heard me right. The entire state fiscal structure is designed to concentrate the fiscal burden of the poor on those who live near them. Suffolk County thus escapes much of the burden of NYC's poor, and the programs to support them. Yet, it still manages to spend a ton.
Upstate is bad off too. The source of the problem is in Albany.
Really the source problem traces back to 1964-65, when Lyndon Johnson tried to have his "guns-and-butter" program, running the high-priced Vietnam War and the high-priced War on Poverty at the same time. The U.S. was in a boom era back then and people thought there was enough money do to both (surprise -- there wasn't). NYS didn't have to directly fund the military expenditures, but as we know, the social spending was eventually dropped more and more into the state and city's hands beginning when Nixon was president, while Rockefeller also ratched state spending through the roof during that era (the Albany federal mall being his lasting epitaph), with state taxed rising along with it.
The problem is in the 30 years since then no state politician, Republican or Democrat, has been willing to bite the bullet on Xing out the unnecessary spending, for fear of offending that group's constiuents. And the state doesn't have the luxury of the federal government in term of tax income -- if California's economy tanks this year because of rising energy prices, the feds can simply go to Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma to get their tax $$. As of last week, NYS had all of four working oil drilling rigs in operation (in the southwestern section near the Pennsylvania state line), so the state isn't going to see much of any benefits from higher oil and gas prices, but will see the liabilities, which will make economic life, espcecially upstate, even less attractive, since high-tax, high-cost areas don't tend to have people flocking to move there.
For example, total state and local government taxes as share of personal income are as high in Suffolk County as in NYC! You heard me right. The entire state fiscal structure is designed to concentrate the fiscal burden of the poor on those who live near them. Suffolk County thus escapes much of the burden of NYC's poor, and the programs to support them. Yet, it still manages to spend a ton.
Doesn't surprise me. Public-sector workers in Suffolk, teachers and police in particular, are grossly overpaid.
In studying a Rand McNally map from 1917 I learned that the LIRR's first station in Brooklyn, coming west on Atlantic Ave was called Railroad Ave. This was apparently because the actual street was called Railroad Ave. In those days the LIRR ran on the road surface!
Railroad Ave ran from Jamaica Ave to Fairfield Ave (now Flatlands Ave). The street is now named Autumn Ave, and has been called that for at least 60 years.
Does anyone here know when the name was changed from Railroad Ave to Autumn Ave, or how it had such a fascinating name as Railroad Ave in the first place?
"Does anyone here know when the name was changed from Railroad Ave to Autumn Ave, or how it had such a fascinating name as Railroad Ave in the first place? "
This sounds like a job for Kevin Walsh, Forgotten-NY. Seriously, give him a try @ www.forgotten-ny.com
Bill "Newkirk"
There's also a S. Railroad Ave on Staten Island that runs parallel to the SIRT line around New Dorp, Jefferson City, et al
>>>There's also a S. Railroad Ave on Staten Island that runs parallel to the SIRT line around New Dorp,
Jefferson City, et al <<<
N & S Railroad Avenues parallel the SIR(T) much of its length, in New Dorp. I don't know their status prior to the grade cross elimination though.
There's also a Railroad Avenue in Arrochar that parallels the old South Shore SIR(T) branch.
Queens has a short N. Railroad Avenue in Woodside (but NO South RR Avenue). Also, a Station and Depot Roads in Flushing.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Christopher Columbus Drive in Jersey City was known as Railroad Ave before the Penna RR viaduct was torn down. The PATH runs below it.
PPS
...there's yet another (unoffical?) "railroad ave" along the old LIRR montauk branch through Blissville. It runs along the tracks and under greenpoint ave. bridge. All of the warehouses along the road proclaim it to be 'Railroad ave', but there's no street signs for it, and it's not on either hagstrom I've got...
My 1916 Wehman Brothers city guide indeed shows Railroad Avenue in Autumn Avenue's place.
Care to scan that RmCN map and post online?
Ultimately I'll cover it in the Street Necrology of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
OK, Kevin, here's a puzzler for your street necrology. This may have been covered on this forum before, but it's worth repeating being it's both on-topic and a good puzzle.
The Franklin Avenue streetcar line used to run to the end of Franklin Avenue. But we're not talking about the location (or approximate location) that the current B48 succesor to the Franklin Ave. Line ends.
Where did the Franklin Avenue streetcar end? Hints: this has to do with the subject of Street Necrology. Notice I said "streetcar," not trolley. Knowledge of where the Franklin car ran before it was converted to the Lorimer bus is a big help.
I think that's enough hints, but you need to explain it.
Parkside Avenue used to be called Franklin Avenue east of Flatbush (or something).
Bingo!
Both Brooklyn and Flatbush had Franklin Avenues. For a while after Brooklyn absorbed Flatbush, Flatbush's Franklin Avenue remained and was sometimes referred to as "Franklin Avenue of Flatbush."
But then they changed it to Parkside. A side note: the track on Parkside was at the north curb, not the center of the street. I remember seeing the tracks peeking through autumn leaves (and parked cars) when I was a little kid.
I wouldn't be surprised if the tracks are still there, under the asphalt (unless there's been major road work).
Congrats, Pork. Keep it up and by the time you're my age you'll be the Crown Roast of Brooklyn Historians.
Hats off to Pigs!
That's some serious homework as 'Franklin Avenue of Flatbush' only appears on maps prior to the 1920's, I believe.
BMTman
Hats off to Pigs!
Maybe four oinks would be more appropriate ;-)
I'm sorry, but I do not have either a scanner or a digital camera.
The map is in an atlas measuring 16" X 21", and the atlas is about 2 inches thick. It seems to weigh a "ton", but I am sure I could get it to a local copy machine, and get the complete map on about four sheets of copy paper (legal size), which you could piece together.
I don't mind doing it if you are really interested!
Have you noticed that the SEPTA silverliners move really slow so they should be called hippos.
after 12 years in the philadelphid/delaware area, i agree with that observation. especially on the SEPTA regional rail lines
Are you kidding me that there are cars that are slower than the R-68s?
BMTJeff
I seen video's of them and they are slow.
They are slow. They seem to amble along from stop to stop. If they replaced them with light rail cars and ran them every 15 minutes instead of every hour, then those lines might be more popular and the line would run no slower but might be cheaper to run and have more usage. Though I guess the riders are used to big train comfort and it would take awhile to get used to actual convenience rather than an old-style ride.
Well, you know that the silverliners are very nice inside. I mean, nicer than light rail cars.
Have SEPTA's customers complained about them because of their slow performance?
A month and a half ago I rode the new Adtranz cars in the Market Street line and they performed quite well. They accelerated well and braked well. They are much better than the R-68s on the NYC subway system.
BMTJeff
The R6 from Norristown to Centre city I was on last week average 30 MPH until we go to North Bend Station. I was guessing its just that line that was slow.
That line IS slow, Silverliner or not. It is the slowest commuter RR line in the country with an average speed of 26 mph (that might have improved as they have been doing some heavy work on the line).
Most people, (railfans & regular riders) agree that the M-4's are running AOK. Did you go to the end of the line to see the Frankford Terminal reconstruction? Also, are the annoucements still working
properly on the M-4's? Glad you enjoyed your ride. Now we look forward to the rebuilding of the section in West Philly. I read in the paper about bus substitution, rider upheaval, etc, etc.
Anybody have any insight on this?
Chuck Greene
Design work on the El reconstruction is being finalized. Allegedly the first segment - west of 63rd St - will be going out to bids this summer. It sounds like the easy part but it's not - the bridge over Cobbs Creek is fairly complicated and the terminal approach is tricky.
The bus substitution was problematic due to the Center City end. To install the CTC lines, the El had to be out west of 15th St. This was moved to 30th St when the subway was completed to that point. There was a circulation problem which was rectified by having buses go west on Walnut between 15th and 20th Streets instead of circling City Hall. Apparently those who exited at 15th were confused about loading locations at 15th & Kennedy especially with the escalator and stairway at 15th St both out (now what genius decided to take BOTH out at the same time, leaving little alternate except for the 'clothespin' stairs?).
This was compounded by the Penn Relays one weekend, which saw lots of extra traffic on Market St west of 30th, and the 10 trolley being out east of 40th (which put many more riders on the shuttle buses). For some reason, SEPTA mixed standard length and articulated buses on the shuttles, which didn't help.
When the El work begins in earnest, shuttles will run between 40th St and 69th St. A new crossover is planned for west of 40th to allow turnbacks there. It will be tricky since 40th is not an island platform, so westbounds will unload, cross over, then load on the eastbound side. Not much flexibility, but...
The recent flap about the project was the non-selected PR consulting team. This has politics written all over it and is the kind of thing that gives SEPTA a bad name, but it happened anyway. This will likely come back to bite SEPTA. There was no good reason to hire a more expensive team other than a local politico pushed for it. It shouldn't effect the project at all.
Too bad that SEPTA doesn't have enough money to put the rest of The Market Street portion underground (That's what was The City and PTC's intentions were). BTW, how did they keep the el up while they were digging underground (when the columns are in the street)?
when is the mfl project is going to be complete
Well, let's see. I think that the project won't be finished until your great-grandchildren are dead of old age (it took 10 years to rebuild Frankford).
Hey, how are the going to keep service on the El when they are rebuilding the west philly el structure?
There are going to use busses instead. Probably express them from
el station to el station , but they will have to fight the automobile
traffic on Market St.
My question is-What happens to all the trainsets stored at 69th st.?
Chuck Greene
That's going to be a problem since on The Frankford side, they did keep the original columns and installed stringers under the original trackbed. The Market Street portion, on the other hand, would require a complete shutdown because of A) the columns are being replaced with a single column and B) the entire section would have to be demolished because there are the beams that run from side-to-side which leaves no room to install the stringers. The engineers (and I don't mean the ones that drive locomotives) have a doozy right there.
The engineers have already figured it out. One of the first contracts will build the new center column foundations and 'stems' (about the first 8-10' of column) which can be done under service since it doesn't effect the El. The rest is to be done on long weekends (8 PM Fri to 6 AM Mon) and will involve removal of portions of the current structure, placement of column 'caps' and preconstructed el sections, and then connection to adjacent portions. During the outages, buses will provide the 'bridge' service between 40th St and 69th St. The Frankford El was done in much the same manner insofar as construction periods go.
I'm glad they didn't! It's great to be able to go down Market St, being able to see the sites.
The subway is basically down the center of the street, and was dug between the el columns, which were shored. I've seen photos of strange trolley track run-arounds which put both sets of tracks on one side of the street. I suppose this was easier in the 40's when traffic was lighter.
they do have enough money to rebuilt the west philly section of
the track.
I meant that they don't have enough money to put the section underground, meaning replacing the el with a tunnel. I know they have enough to rebuild the el.
The recent bussing issues are with the signal replacement project, which is nearing completion. We are getting ATC. Then there is the el-replacement project, which Bobw gave some good updates on.
Are they still planning to replace the entire 20+ block el structure and stations without missing a single rush hour? I still can't understand how they expect to pull that off. Is there any precedent for something like that? (For those who don't know, they are really replacing everything - a steel structure straddling the street is being replaced with a concrete structure supported by center columns.)
Is the announcement system based on wheel rotations or speed or something. I've noticed that the stop is announced when the train slows down...
Oh, I guess that makes you an expert then.
No joke - SEPTA's Silverliners are excruciatingly slow, especially the older ones. But SEPTA regional rail line stops are too close together. They should close some of those stops, raise the platform heights of others and convert the shorter regional rail lines (R1, R6 to Bala-Cynwyd, R7 Chestnut Hill, R8) to light rail.
The Silverliners are not slow, but you are right about the stations being too close together (they do fly on the stretech between Claymont and Wilmington on the R2).
At least back in the day Silverliners were quite perky with very high acceleration. Phil was relating to me a story where he was on a Silverliner that got up to 98 mph.
Back in the day when silverliners were replacing MP54's on the Paoli Local, some engineers would put them through their paces and then wait an extra minute or two at the next station. Others just crawled along to maintain the timetable established for the '54's.
As others have said, it's the characteristics of the lines, not the cars. The 'liners can and do move - take the R2 to Wilmington and once you pass those station-a-mile segments north of Chester, watch the cars fly. R3 to West Trenton can move also. I've even been on the fabled R6 Norristown's Schuylkill Valley Flyer runs where they tend to open up. And any trip on R1 moves on the straightaway between 60th St and 90th St junctions.
But don't expect this on the closely-spaced stop lines such as R2 Warminster, R3 Media, R5 Paoli (until you get west of there), R7/R8 Chestnut Hill, R8 Fox Chase, and especially R6 Cynwyd, where you could walk faster.
On the R5 the train hit 60+ between stops which are about a mile appart. That's pretty good.
the overhaul one's pick up faster.becouse of the contral board.
i think the overhaul one have a faster pick up and a top speed of about 75mph on a good track.
The problem with Septa's regional lines isn't the Silverliners, which are capeable of very high acceleration, but rather with the fact that the track is in many places jointed, or otherwise not suited for the kind of high speed running they need. Add close station stops, and you've got a disaster. Rebuilding the system for 80mph running, instead of the 45 or so that a lot of it is now, would improve things alot.
The original hippos ran thru some of the same country...the former PRR lines. The first use of that name I ever saw was the Pennsy I-1 class 2-10-0 steam locos...indeed they were [gorgeous, awesome] hippos. Just for info if nobody else has said so.
I have heard that talented engineers could urge them up to 55 mph.
the silverliners move fast
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ANyone have the specs for the SPETA Norristown N5?
Our top speed was 65 out of 69st. And those things can accelerate damn fast. I was almost thrown into the rear potition.
Only if we had that type of power in a NYC subway train.
Wait, are you talking about Route 100 out of 69 St? That is not what people were talking about. The R6 is the Norristown Branch of the former Reading Railroad. Route 100 (formerly the Red Arrow, formerly the Phila & Western RR) goes up to 70-80 miles per hour, I believe. They can really go fast, especially since at most stations the way to get a train to stop is to press a button that turns on a light to signal the driver. If that button is not pressed, the train goes flying through the station (except at Bryn Mawr and maybe a couple of others). Even though both the R6 and 100 go to Norristown, they use completely different routes and completely different cars and systems. I'm not even sure the track widths are the same. Does the P&W use standard or 5'4" width like the MFSE?
P&W uses standard gage, I think. I read that while SEPTA was waiting for the N5 cars to come online, it used serveral Almond Joy cars on Route 100 and had to use different wheelsets so the Almond Joys could use the 100's tracks.
The P&W IS standard gauge.
The Budds used trucks purchased from PATH that came from the retired K cars (which I believe went to the ocean floor). When the N5's arrived, the Budds were retired (they did not return to the El, as some folks believe). I'm not sure what became of the trucks.
The N5's are speedy but, in my opinion, the Bullets were the real jackrabbits on the P & W. The motormen used to throw them into series right out of the stops in many instances (they couldn't leaving 69th St due to the yard limit, but past 72nd St Shops they could push you back into the seat very easily).
Last week, I was waiting at the Jay Street station to catch a train to Broadway East New York where I connect with the L train. Into the station came a C train. Now for those of you who don't know, there are about 7 local stations between Jay Street and Broadway East New York where the C train stops and the A train does not. So if there is an A train less than 7 minutes behind the C train, it is better for me to wait for the A train.
Why can't the dispatcher at Jay Street announce how far behind the C train is the next A train. I mean we get annoucements some times saying the next Queensbound train is two stations away (I always wonder if the announcement is by a live woman or is a tape). Better yet, why can't New York be like London. As old and dilapidated as the London Underground is, every station in Central London has a large board which tells us how far behind the next trains are and what the destination is. I can't believe it would be such a big deal to put the same boards into the New York subway; but that would mean the MTA actually cares about its passengers.
Now I know it might cost a great deal of money to puts these signs up; I am sure it could be done. But in the interim, why can't the dispatcher at the Jay Street station simply make an announcement so passengers can make the correct choice.
Incidentally, it is obvious A train service at that time of the evening (10 PM) is inadequate as every A train that arrives is over crowded. While I understand it is impossible to provide a seat for every passenger during rush hours, it should not be a problem to do so at 10 PM at night. Once again, showing the contempt of the MTA towards its passengers which it supposedly is serving.
I like your suggestions.
I don't think it's contempt that motivates the MTA. I think it's that there are a lot of people screaming at them to do this, that and the other thing, and they don't think of every detail. Also, what is the work flow like in the dispatch centers? Can they make an announcent like that in between other duties?
New systems to automate that cost money. Maybe it should be spent (I think you have a great idea). What is competing for that money?
Suggestion: Take out a piece of paper, write to MTA to suggest this (and write a polite and respectful letter), send copies to your city council member and Assembly person, and see what happens.
If you are interested in this, and you have time to post to this board, you can do that. See what happens.
The announcement boards have already been installed. They show the time, and canned service announcements (about GOs and stuff). They will be used to announce the next train when the Control Center on 9th and 54th opens in the future (on the site of the former 54th Street dus bepot). And they also have approaching train announcements in newly renovated stations, replacing the older scrolling red LED models which show MTA messages (like buy Metrocard or watch for your safety).
Great!
Those new signs are also in un-renovated stations, such as Steinway and Parsons/Hillside. The problem is the one at Parsons/Hillside is also tied in to the express track, so at night and on weekends there is always a Jamaica bound train arriving. Can't they deactivate the sensors when they are storing trains there?
They will be used to announce the next train when the Control Center on 9th and 54th opens in the future
When is it supposed to open? It's been under construction for what seems like five years already.
Suggestion: Take out a piece of paper, write to MTA to suggest this (and write a polite and respectful letter), send copies to your city council member and Assembly person, and see what happens.
I'll tell you what happens. Three letters (one original, two copies) end up in the trash can. The MTA doesn't care - what is the dissatisfied writer going to do, ride a competitor's subway? And the council member and Assemblyman don't care, as they're guaranteed re-election as long as the term limits allow.
Unless you changed your handle, I think this is your first SubTalk posting. It's unfortunate you started out bitching. The TA has a program in development as to the location of the next train. Is EVERY car crowded on the A train at 10 PM? I really doubt it. If passengers would spread out a bit, more people can have seats. After all, each A train is 600 feet long.
Unless you changed your handle, I think this is your first SubTalk posting. It's unfortunate you started out bitching. The TA has a program in development as to the location of the next train. Is EVERY car crowded on the A train at 10 PM? I really doubt it. If passengers would spread out a bit, more people can have seats. After all, each A train is 600 feet long.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what's wrong with bringing up my opinion? And why can't the dispatcher at Jay Street let the passengers know how much longer till the next A train when the C train arrives as with the large number of local stations between there and Euclid, it might make a big difference in deciding whether to take the C train or wait for the A train.
Finally, yes, the A trains that come into Jay Street at 10 PM are very much overcrowded indicating a deficiency in service exists on the A line.
The dispatcher does not know how far your or anybody else is going. Making the announcement YOU want to hear may actually cause some others to increase their trip time. For example, if someone wants to get off at Nostrand or Utica, the C will probably get them there quicker because the A may not pass it by, yet someone like you who is going to ENY, would do better with the A because by that point the express may or may not pass the local. You are being rather scientific. Plus, even if the dispatcher was able to satisfy you with the location of the next express and you did not get on the local, you wouldn't be too happy with him if something happened with that express enroute causing you to get to ENY quicker with the C.....And I ask again: was each and every car of that train at 10 PM crowded? As a NYCT train operator of 20 years, I have seen express trains pass my local train with swinging loads in the first car, yet seats in other cars of the train.
The dispatcher does not know how far your or anybody else is going. Making the announcement YOU want to hear may actually cause some others to increase their trip time. For example, if someone wants to get off at Nostrand or Utica, the C will probably get them there quicker because the A may not pass it by, yet someone like you who is going to ENY, would do better with the A because by that point the express may or may not pass the local. You are being rather scientific. Plus, even if the dispatcher was able to satisfy you with the location of the next express and you did not get on the local, you wouldn't be too happy with him if something happened with that express enroute causing you to get to ENY quicker with the C.....
Be that as it may, why should I be deprived of the information which can easily be given to me to make the best decision on the basis of the available information? Let the dispatcher tell the passengers the next A train will arrive in 4 minutes....I then do much much better with the A if I am going to ENY or Euclid right....
This is not asking for a whole lot that is not available to the dispatchers on their boards is it....
I know that this answer will not satisfy you but let me try anyway. I don't recall how far north the Jay St. model board can see but I don't think it's farther than mid-river. Now, the scheduled running time between W4th St. and jay St. is 8 minutes on either the A or F lines, hence, the Jay St. dispatcher has only 1 1/2 - 2 minutes advance warning of an approaching train from the north. Second, even at that, there is no way of telling whether that southbound 8th Ave train is the scheduled A or C out of place or maybe a transfer train. In reality, the dispatcher just may not know.
If you stand at Columbus Circle they announce southbound trains in a generic form. For example they might say, "there is a brooklyn-bound express passing 72nd St." because they don't know if is a D or an A (although the A is technically Queens-bound anyway). Is this the best we can do? Absolutely not. When the new Control Center is fully operational, this will be a thing of the past.
Just to add to what others have said, there is an enormously expensive, multi-year project going on called -- the actually there are all different parts. There is "Data Network," a system of fiber-optic cables, the Rail Control Center, and PA/CIS -- the system that will allow signboards to display the number of minutes until the next arriving train.
Construction is slow -- you have to set up, work for a while, then get everything out of the way for the next rush hour. General Orders -- diversions of train traffic so you can work along the tracks -- are hard to get, with all the projects going on and customer complaints about the detours.
Just wait five years or so. If they keep funding the capital plan.
There is "Data Network," a system of fiber-optic cables, the Rail Control Center, and PA/CIS -- the system that will allow signboards to display the number of minutes until the next arriving train ... Construction is slow ... Just wait five years or so. If they keep funding the capital plan.
Tokyo employs a much simpler system to tell the passenger, when the next train is expected. It does not require an extensive capital program nor does its implementation require massive construction nor delay nor diversion of existing traffic. It could be implemented within five months not five years. I guess that these characteristics have precluded the MTA from considering its application in NYC.
The command center can't even tell where a train is without calling the T/O. You want pax to know??
Wait until they upgrade the system and the new control center is online. Then pax could start being put into the know.
The dispatcher's office at Jay Street knows...for pete's sake they are making announcements all the time..."the next Coney Island bound F train is at 2nd Avenue, 3 stops away." Their board tells them whether the next train is at the next station or not even on the board. When a Queens bound C comes in, they can and should tell the passengers whether the next A train will be arriving within the next 3 or 4 minutes so passengers can make the correct choice as to how best to arrive at their destination in the most timely manner.
Look - if you had all the answers you would not have needed to ask the question. It seems to me that several people have explained why this is not done. On the F line it's clear because the only train on that track - southbound is an F train. On the 8th Avenue line it's not so clear. It could be a C train or it could be an A train. They do not show differently on the model board. Personally, if asyou say the running time to your station is X minutes via express and the local running time is X+7 minutes and the local were there, I'd get on it. Because of the switches at Canal St. the express would likely be trailing by at least 2-3 minutes meaning the most time you'd save could be 4-5 minutes by waiting but if the express is 10 minutes behind - it'll cost you 3 minutes. Now the heading of your original posting, "CONTEMPT", connoted a certain level of hostility. If you have an axe to grind, perhaps you should be calling (718)330-3000.
Look, I don't have an axe to grind. The fact is, I have travelled extensively and think for the most part NYC has done a great job with the subways. However, it is puzzling to me how a system as old as the one in London can provide very detailed information to passengers as to just how far behind the next train is and what its destination is...I don't think that is asking too much.
Much of the time, it probably doesn't make a difference. To a degree, I am being selfish because the situation is sort of specialized. It is at a time of night when making a connection to the L train is important so as not to wait twice and being a few minjtes earlier can spell the difference between making a connection or waiting another 10 minutes for a second train.
This whole thing came to mind when I started taking the train home from work and stopped driving the car because I trust the subway not because I have some axe to grind. I just feel that since they are making announcements at Jay Street as to the next train (I still don't know if it is a live announcement by this woman or if it's on tape) they could provide the info.
You will at least admit the info would be helpful. Maybe contemp was too strong a word but I just get the feeling that the MTA feels passengers need not know when the next time is arriving as they never provided this information whereas in London they, at least on this front, have more concern for their passengers with the large boards.
Several have tried to explain why this can't or shouldn't be done. Again, I don't buy it but I do appreciate the sincerity with which the suggestions are posed. After all, that is what this board is for, isn't it?
I don't think anyone has said that it can't be done or shouldn't be done. They're just saying it can't be done right now (with any accuracy, at least), with the existing equipment. The equipment necessary to make such announcements is being installed, as others have said.
As to why a system as old as London's has such a system while New York's doesn't, at the time London was installing its system, London Transport was receiving sufficient funding from its funding sources(I don't believe that's the case anymore, and that's one reason Robert Kiley went over there -- his expertise is in squeezing blood from stones)...New York was being seriously underfunded. By the time New York's transit network started receiving sufficient funding (in the early 1980s), such a backlog of serious problems had accumulated (bad track, unreliable subway cars and buses, dilapidated maintenance facilities, and on and on...) that things like next-train annunciators had to wait. Now enough "catch-up" has been done that NYCT's horizons can be expanded.
David
The board tells them the "next trian" is not what that train is. It can't tell if it is the garbage or money train just that a train is 3 station away.
Try doing that on the 6th ave express where there are three trains. They just say an express train is coming uptown.
Look at the bright side a few years ago the stations didn't even have the PA working.
I've used the 86th Street IND station twice in the past few months.
The first time I was waiting for a downtown local. After a long wait, an announcement came over the PA that the next train through, a C, was at 103rd and would be skipping 96th, 86th, and 81st, and that the following train, a B, would be making all stops.
The second time I was waiting for an uptown local. The announcement was muffled, but, again, it was about a train bypassing stops. A few minutes later, an A passed on the express track followed immediately by a D passing on the local track. (One of my fellow passengers-in-waiting gave the D T/O the finger. For what -- using the local track? The D never stops at 86th!)
It would be nice if this sort of information were made available to passengers even when things are functioning normally. My experience is that even when things are not functioning normally, most lines don't get the treatment the CPW local gets.
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Can anyone tell me how to post any photographs on BusTalk/SubTalk? I really want to know. Also, how do I provide links to websites again? (I did not see any past posts on this matter.)
Thanks,
CWalNYC
P.S. I cannot provide links to any pages in my websites. Tripod only allows me to link people to the home page, then direct them to the rest of the pages in the sites.
An easier way to look at HTML is to right click and click on view sorce.
But you have to figure out what it all does, and the source here is very disorganized.
it easy with ie. but with netscape it's hard
Our good moderator appears to be on vacation this weekend, so Ill add my 2 worth.
You cant post a picture, just a reference to it. If you want to put a picture on the site, you will have to e-mail it to the moderator with a request.
You can put your picture on your own site and link to it. Some free sites dont allow this as they want to put up annoying banners and pop-ups (Geocities is probably the worst offender here). If you have your own Internet Account, have a look: it probably has 4/5MB of web space you can use for photos like this.
As for inserting links, the easiest way is to view the source of a page thats similar. There are plenty of recent examples, look here for Chao-Hwa Chens Acela Express photos. American Pig is correct in noting that the html source can be a little difficult to read (the browser generally doesnt care where the new lines are in the source, or if they are there at all). A hint is to look at the displayed page, find the Posted by text. After that is the message body.
Finally, if you are not sure that you have entered everything correctly, try the preview button. You can test your links and look at the message to see that it is what you wanted before publishing it to the world.
Try it and have fun!
John.
Geocities is probably the worst offender here
While it does not allow remote loading anymore, GeoCities is a lot better than it was before the takeover by Yahoo.
Carl, I think that Tripod will allow you to put in a link to ANY .htm or .html source page - it doesn't have to be your home page. So, create a page just for the pics you want to post, then add a link.
As Oinklet and others have said, the source for these pages isn't incredibly easy to read, if only because it is quite complex; Dave has had to write a lot of html and perl to make this board work as well as it does. But examples can be found if you have the patience to look. I'm not well versed at tricking out the source to make html readable, but here's an example of a link to another html page on this website:
What's New
You'll have to view the source to see how I did it, but it's not that hard to find. To provide a link to a particular image, you can do it like this:
This is one of Dave's banner images, posted inline. And be sure and use the preview option when posting with html; it avoids embarrasment :-)
Hope that helps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oinklet?!
Loved it!
John.
One can write HTML that's easy to read, knowing that the browser will ignore carriage returns and read multiple consecutive spaces as a single space. One can also put notes in the text for himself and others by using which are quote characters. The browser will ignore text after
The reason the posts here have difficult to read HTML is because they're machine generated. It's not like they were written and edited manually by somebody who needed to easily get through his work to edit it. The scripts that generate it may be more easily read by humans (I wouldn't know), but it doesn't matter how the HTML of its output comes out, so long as it looks good in the browser.
One can write HTML that's easy to read, knowing that the browser will ignore carriage returns and read multiple consecutive spaces as a single space. One can also put notes in the text for himself and others by using <!-- and --> which are quote characters. The browser will ignore text after <!-- and until it hits a -->
The reason the posts here have difficult to read HTML is because they're machine generated. It's not like they were written and edited manually by somebody who needed to easily get through his work to edit it. The scripts that generate it may be more easily read by humans (I wouldn't know), but it doesn't matter how the HTML of its output comes out, so long as it looks good in the browser.
is it easy with a 1997 i-mac ?? just thought i would ask !!
What happened to SubTalk? I went to the site and the chat wasn't found. Is the Chat Room host on vacation or something?
CWalNYC
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As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
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It's too bad I didn't see this before you came to the chat. Since it's in VIOLATION of our rule on posting chat status on Subtalk Main.
See You screwed up the chat CWalNYC!
You were tring to screw up the chat right?
It seems to me you're proactively trying to undermine the chat.
I rode a R-32 on the R line today. The floor has been redone in something like a dark grey marble. I've seen this on some R-62s on the 4 line also. When did the TA do this? It makes the cars very dark. I actually like it.
Also, I've seen the orange seats of the Devil replaced with different versions with no dividers on some R-62s.
I know that the floors on the #4 had been warped for quite sometime now, which is probably why they were replaced. I have seen those, plus the R-32s on the E have the floors that are black with blue and white speckles as well...which is a good sign that the R-32s will not be retired anytime soon. -Nick
Ride an R32 with a tan/beige floor and you can answer your own question: the old floors were sinking due to an under-flooring defect, and the old floor covering is cracking all over the place. The dark floors appear cleaner so the Straphangers Campaign has one less thing to complain about.
According to Jonathan Belcher's page on the New England Transportation Site, there are now 10 type 8s in service on the "B" line. -Nick
I'm going to attempt to clear up some misconceptions by explaining
what exactly is happening under the floor.
Which is faster, the R68 or the R40? The answer is: it depends.
I can say for sure that between 0 and 15 MPH, these cars will be
dead even. Why? Because the TA calibrates them to accelerate at
2.5 MPHPS. There are 3 portions of the acceleration curve. In
the low-speed portion, the grid resistance is being notched out
to maintain a nearly constant current, and hence acceleration rate.
That period ends when all of the resistance is out of the circuit.
There is also a series-parallel transition which isn't important
to this discussion. At the conclusion of the low-speed portion,
each motor PAIR has 600 volts across it (each PAIR of motors is
permanently wired in series because all cars use 300 volt motors).
That all cars accelerate at this 2.5 rate during the low-speed portion
should not be under dispute. We'll assume that the cars were
calibrated and that continues to be routinely checked. We'll also
assume that the load weight compensation works as designed.
75 foot cars have a lower gear ratio than 60 or 51 footers. I
don't have the ratios handy, but I believe it is something like
5.5:1 for the 75' cars and 7:1 for all others. I'm sure Train
Dude has this info.
I said there are 3 parts to the speed curve. After the resistive
acceleration, there is a mid-range portion and then the last
part, balancing speed, where the motors reach their equilibrium point.
The gear ratios now come into play. Remember, all of the motors
in use by all of the cars (other than the AC traction cars) are
electrically identical motors rated at 115 HP.
One immediate implication is that the 75' cars should have a higher
top end speed. This is because for a given car speed, their motors
are not rotating as quickly. This only holds for level tangent
track where the weight of the car doesn't make much contribution
to the balancing speed.
The performance of the motor after resistive notching is over
(i.e. with the full voltage across it) is characterized by
a complicated graph known as the motor curve. Basically, tractive
effort is related to rpm by what looks something like a 1/x curve.
Under low tractive load, such as balancing on level tangent track,
the diminished TE/torque ratio of the reduced gearing doesn't make
much difference because the torque-speed curve is pretty flat, but
the lower gear ratio scales directly out to higher speed. That is
why I say under those circumstances the 75' cars will be faster
on the top-end.
Under high tractive load, such as ascending a long, steep grade,
the balancing speeds will be about even between the two car classes,
and perhaps the 75' cars will come up slightly slower.
It is in the middle of the acceleration range that things get tricky.
Thankfully, the TA removed the field shunting notches which were
a messy calculation. So, after resistive notching is over,
accel rate will NOT be 2.5 MPHps. It will gradually fall off as
it is no longer under control of the notching relay. All other things
being equal, the curves of the two car classes should cross twice.
My theoretical prediction of an imaginary race between a 75' car
and a 60' car: Both cars start at the same time and are dead
even until they reach a speed of about 15 MPH. The 75' car starts
to pull away slightly (because it reaches the end of its 2.5 MPHPS
portion at a higher ground speed). The 60' car then starts to
catch up, then it reaches balancing speed, and the 75' car ultimately
reaches a speed a few MPH faster, winning the race in the long-haul.
Someone mentioned motor load. The motors are not being unduly
stressed in the 75' cars, despite the fact that they must produce
more tractive effort because of the weight of the cars, and that
effect is magnified by the reduced gearing. When a traction motor
is rated for 115 HP, it means it can output that amount of mechanical
power at a certain target speed and torque, for a period of one
hour, with a temperature rise not to exceed 75C above ambient.
This is clearly not how motors are used in subway service. It is
routine during the brief acceleration phase to load the motors 150-200
% above nominal rating. No harm will be done to them from this.
In fact, the 115 HP motors in the 75' cars are being loaded normally,
and the 115 HP motors in the lighter cars are actually being
under-loaded.
That is a great post. Well explained, though a diagram would have helped a bit.
Thank you - I've learned something cool...
If one wants to proves how fast the R-68s accelerate versus the 60' cars I think that they should do a test. Take a train of R-68s and run them on the express track of the Brighton or Sea Beach Line during of hours and time them between two set points. Then do the same with a 10 car train of 60' cars. Make sure that all the cars in both consists are in top condition before you run the tests. Then you'll have solid proof of the performance between the two different types of cars.
BMTJeff
The purpose of the post by Jeff H is that acceleration comparison between the cars is unfair because an R40 and an R68 are not created equal. They are different in concept due to their length and weight...... The TA does not and will not do drag racing tests on the Sea Beach or Brighton lines to show which car accelerates quicker. No one disputes which car does it faster! It costs money for the manpower and the TA operates on budgets!
Didn't Todd Glickman do this sort of test bet W4 and 34 St?
Didn't he conclude that there was basically no difference?
Jeff, it sounds like you may have reached the same conclusion that I have - that BMTjeff is far from the sharpest tool in the shed.
Jeff, thank you for going through the entire explanation again. I know that we've done this dozens of times in the past. We've also estimated wind resistance and rolling friction and dozens of other insignificant variables. We've looked at this issue from every point of view. As you can see from the two other posts in response to yours, some thoughtful individuals will listen to the devine logic and physical common sense of what you have said and say, "That makes sense". On the other hand, there are the boarder-line imbiciles who still still feel that your explanation is wrong - "we need to run a test". They have no data to question, no measurements, nothing but they feel that despite everything, they are still correct. To them I have only this to say: "Yes, we do need to make a test. We need to find out how a brain as small as theirs can generate enough power to make their feet move."
Excuse me, you spelled something incorrectly, (boarder-line). Please make a note of it and correct your spelling.
BMTJeff
Why Jeffy, what a wonderful day this must be for you.
It certainly is a wonderful day.
BMTJeff
You have a lot of patience to write all that out, as for me I don't even know all those details.
Thabnx ....I guess to look at things another way go from an R32 lets say to an R44, 68 etc, then to an Amtrak Superliner. Ride each at 45 MPH you'll go from thinking you're flying to wondering if anything on this world is slower.
Then there's the thoughts of the IRT I loved so much and speed. Don't misunderstand me..it still rates #1 in the rail portion of my heart. But you'd ride those steel relics at 45 on the jointed rail of the period with all the rock and roll ride it brought on...45 felt like 75. on and on ...
Of course with the field shunt castration mods in place, the
current fleet IS slower than Lo-Vs, but that's another story!
New York City Transit Authority
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
TRANSIT AUTHORITY ANNOUNCES R68/R68A SERVICE ENHANCEMENT PLAN
The New York City Transit Authority, as part of its commitment to customer satisfaction, is pleased to announce that a general overhaul (GOH) program is now in progress for its fleet of 1990 vintage subway cars to finally bring these subway cars up to acceptable standards in order to meet the requirements of our cherished customers.
In order to address numerous complaints about this class of cars and perceived poor acceleration and braking capabilities, several modifications will be included in this general overhaul. Each 10 car train will be equipped with an eleventh car consisting of an Atlas Five rocket in order to provide additional traction power in order to improve acceleration rates. As a result of this additional power, R68 and R68A cars will provide swift transit in excess of Mach 5 which will permit these cars to provide super express service from Brighton Beach, Brooklyn to 205th Street, the Bronx in under 12 minutes total trip time.
In order to provide smooth deceleration at the terminal, a 75 foot coil spring, weighing 78 tons will be affixed to the A units, or control cars at the front end of the train which, in conjunction with a 12 foot catcher's mitt in the terminal, will decelerate the train smoothly and efficiently. The Transit Authority will also station a hose car and pump car at each terminal for the convenience of hosing down the storm doors of the refurbished cars in order to provide clean cars and seats for the return trip.
Morton Thiokol was granted the contract for propulsion systems and Rawlings Sporting Equipment won the contract for the braking system. As a result of reroutes, R68 and R68A cars will be prohibited from stopping, even in local GO situations, at Spring Street and will also be prohibited from using the Manhattan Bridge after the modifications. Passengers on platforms are encouraged to step back as the newly modified trains pass by, as the Transit Authority will not be responsible for singed apparel as the train bypasses stations in Manhattan.
New trains should begin service July 4, 2001.
The above is satire - logos and service marks of the NYC Transit Authority and MTA are used without permission
LOL! This would actually solve the Manhattan Bridge problem - trains wouldn't need to use the bridge; just construct a portal and ramp coming out of Canal St and another just before DeKalb and have the trains FLY OVER the bridge.
"New trains should begin service July 4, 2001."
Ah, the 25th Anniversary of the Transit Museum, and just in time to get people to the BUS Festival faster ;).
Oh, the things that get posted at 1:00 on a Sunday morning :D
The MTA ... going your way (depending on prevailing winds) ...
>>just construct a portal and ramp coming out of Canal St and another just before DeKalb and have the trains FLY OVER the bridge.
Gives new meaning to the term "flyover junction," eh?
Dan
Shouldn't the date of this release have been April 1st?
Might have been missed ... we'll have to check the archives. :)
According to the rumor mill (I was watching Jerry Springer) they're also planning to do a few more subtle improvements such as mounting microphones on the outside of the cars so tunnel noise can be picked up and amplified over the PA system, custom grinding of the wheels at the CIY Wheel shop to place 6 flats on each wheel in a hexagonal pattern in order to enhance track noise, giving that old familiar sound that further enhances the amusement park ride experience, and genuine bench seating provided by the NYC Parks Department. In a nod to 1960's styling, 3 inch thick shag carpeting will also be installed as part of the GOH according to my sources.
You forgot that they will have to bring backs the straps, too, for the convenience and comfort of passengers, because of the high speeds going through turns
Actually they're planning to solve that by a GO on the Brighton line, 6th Avenue (especially the 53rd street turns) and the 145th Street and 161-167 Street turns. They're going to move the tracks to the outer walls from the ground so the trains won't have to slow down for curves. G forces and centrifugal force will combine throughout the trip to keep the geese locked down on the floor (or the bench seats if they prefer). I think that's the reason behind the 3 inch thick shag rugs on the floors. I believe (according to my sources) that the "straps" will be removed entirely as unnecessary because they are the actual reason why the existing cars are so slow (that unnecessary weight) ...
Off peak and weekend service will be accomplished by cartapults on either side of the Manny B ...
Better make those wall tracks especially high around Dekalb Av.
I believe the plan there is to rotate them up the wall and have them ceiling-mounted through DeKalb ... since the rocket trains will need to go via tunnel, it might become a loop-de-loop ...
You forgot an important improvement:
In an effort to improve timeliness and to discourage door-holding, the current rubber seals will be replaced with stainless-steel knives. The doors will close.
Extra transit workers are being hired as platform cleaners
John.
Heh. Don't be giving them ideas they *CAN* implement. :)
I heard that they were going to take one of the original traction motors from an R-68 and use it for a proposed amusement ride that is to be called the "Giant Whip" at Coney. The ride is simply a much bigger version of "The Whip" and when it goes around the turn the car can be expected to reach 100 mph so that riders must be held in with extra strong restraints. Sounds like a lot of fun.
BMTJeff
And soon there'll be no waiting at all since those pesky 115 horsie motors will be scrapped once the Morton Thiokol motors replace those oldies. There'll be enough spare motors to build the equivalent of the water balloon race games in sheer quantities ...
Then when the install the 115 hp motors on those "Balloon Water Race" games the balloons can inflate and pop within a small fraction of a second so that they can have more patrons and a day at the "Balloon Water Race" games that you often see at carnivals and amusement parks. They can build a special "Balloon Water Race" game for Coney Island.
BMTJeff
Can we put my weekend CR onboard? The TD at Van Cortlandt once said that if we ran space shuttles from South Ferry to VC, this guy would still be late. I'd love to check this out.
Testing of theoreticals through hard science is always the best way to go. And if your guy can't get the doors closed on time on a run with the rebuilt cars, there's always a future pick for MABSTOA cartapult service from Canal St ... if the doors ain't closed on time on THAT run, he'll never do it again, especially if he leaves the car at apogee ...
Hey, what the hell happened to the plans to add the plutonium reactors, the lightning rods and the flux capacitor to the R-68s so Brighton line passengers could get to their jobs earler (like as in 1955)?
I believe they decided to apply that technology to the 143's when it's time for THEIR GOH later this summer. :)
Well, I suppose it would work better with a car equipped to handle CBTC. Just hope when it appears on the Brighton line circa 1955 there isn't a triplex right in front of it.
My sources tell me that Kawasaki has licensed Klingon cloaking technology, so the Triplexes will never know what hit 'em ...
So we can expect Captain Kirk to be surgically altered to resemble a Kawasaki rail car division engineer to steal the cloaking device and install in on the triplex ... or they'll just send Mr. Sulu to do it and save Dr. McCoy some time in surgery.
Of course, cloaked or not, the triplex would probably brush off a collision with an R-143 -- even one going 88 mph -- like a bug is shrugged off by an elephant (notice I didn't say hippo?).
Heh. I ain't going THERE ... :)
You forgot to mention this:
In an effort to satiate rabid, frothing railfans who are wasting away without railfan windows, the car ends will now be made entirely of scratch-proof, graffiti-proof Lexan with bench seating across the window and no lights in the front half of the car, so as to facilitate railfanning. The T/O's compartment will be removed and the T/O will now lie prone on the top of the train. Due to bugetary limitations, the tunnels will not be altered to accomodate the new height and so all T/Os will be issued bicycle helmets and strict orders to wear them at all times.
When the car ends are replaced, the new car ends will be slanted 15. The rest of the car bodies will be painted crimson.
Dan
If they can't fabricate new slanted car ends the slanted ends shall be removed from the Slant R-40s once they are retired and installed on the R-68s. At the same time the large roll sign on the front of the car should be replaced with a large viewing window for railfanning and the destination sign should be repositioned where the "Express/Local" signs were located before the GOH program for the Slant R-40s. Since the storm doors would be kept locked at all times the pantograph gates and the safety railings shall be removed. This will give a touch of dash to the R-68s.
BMTJeff
Wow ... you guys are REALLY going out of your way to make sure Train Dude is *so* busy he won't have time to post with that kind of a workload. I heard from my sources (when they weren't throwing chairs on stage or pulling out their fellow TV guest's hair) that the plans may also include low ride air suspension and rooftop seating for the railfans so that if they irritate the crew, all they have to do is hit an orange button in the cab to make the car jack up and off with their heads ... (also handles TV camera tripods in one swell foop) ...
In the meantime they want to set up the BMT Eastern Division so that they can handle the R68/R68As so once the GOH program for these cars is finished you can travel from Rockaway Parkway to 8th Ave. on the 14th street Canarsie Line ("L" train) in about 2 1/2 minutes since they would set up the trains to stop at every 4th station along the way and station stops are limited to 5 seconds. Then the "J" express will get you from Archer Avenue in Jamaica to Broad Street in Manhattan in about the same time. They will run an "M" special from Metropolitan Avenue in Queens to Stillwell Avenue in Coney Island on summer weekends with no stops in Manhattan that will complete its run in about 3 minutes.
BMTJeff
Paul is that you?
Sorry to disappoint, but it's Dan McNickle.
Oops.
Dan
12 minutes from Brighton Beach to 205th St? That's still too slow! The R40 could do it in 7 minutes with those new modifications!
Actually the 68's and the 40's would be stuck with that delay - the real problem is the speed restrictions and timers ... as part of the 2002 capital plan, work on the 2nd avenue subway will be stopped for a couple of years to allow them to retrofit the trackage on existing lines to install welded seemless track on the walls of the outer radius in the tunnels on curves. Once the tracks and third rail is relocated on the walls of the outer turn radii, then the trains will no longer be impeded by the curves where they would now have to slow down to Mach 1 in order to avoid possible derailment.
Once the slow orders are removed, the trip should be possible from end to end in under 5 minutes.
OK, I'm comparing the "crush" hour and daily loads on the N line going to/from Brooklyn and the 7 express between NY and Flushing.
In my experiences the 7 is always MUCH more crowded. We get the most loads at Junction and Main street. The N seems to be a bit more spread out, and granted I haven't ridden it that often to/from Brooklyn in the rush hour. The N probably would be more crowded if it went over the bridge, but now they opt for the B (or in a few months the W) to 36th.
Generally as far as quality of ride the N is much better than those packed Red sardine cans. Also it helps N riders have better manners than 7 riders (this is from my experience).
The N seems to get more chinese riders going to/from the 8th ave vicinity than the 7 also. 8th ave in Sunset Park seems to be the largest chinese community outside of Chinatown right now. I wonder why the boom in Flushing has cooled, since the 7 is a very fast commute (faster than the N currently). Radio Shack closed, but so have several Chinese owned places. Flushing doesn't have nearly the amount of chinese eateries that Sunset Park has. I know I'm always
bitching about Flushing I know, but i just wanna know what's going on there. Also there's more banks in 8th ave Brooklyn than Flushing (Abacus chinese bank and Queens Bank closed in Flushing). I also
think the big karaoke bar at Roosevelt and Main closed. And the Queens bank is now some flea market that is already going out of business.
Most people don't shop, they just use Flushing as transit transfer.
Iwonder how this relates to transit. Clearly Flushing is in a much better transit situation than 8th ave, being the terminal of many bus lines and a short commute to Manhattan.
So this really shows that transit isn't always a factor in area growth. There can be other more important factors such as crime (Flushing IS a high crime area, the car theft capital of NYC) housing, etc.
I do like 8th ave Brooklyn though. I just wish they'd but the N on the bridge this summer, let the B (and W)riders
suffer through lower Manhattan.
Yeah the 7 may get a higher top speed but the Sea Beach is a way nicer line in terms of neighborhoods and cleanliness. Did I mention scenery?
AND TO THE MTA...PLEASE PUT THE N ON THE BRIDGE WHERE IT BELONGS!
(W riders it's your turn to get the scenic tour of lower Manhattan)
When the CC/C were rush hour trains prior to 1988,after the rush hour what would ex CC/C motorman/conductor do during the day? Rest until the afternoon rush hour,or they assigned them to work on another line during the day? How was this service for motorman & conductor back then?
Some CC crews would make one "long" to Bedford Park, then make shuttles between Rockaway Park and Broad Channel. Others would make 1 1/2 round trips, or just one round trip with a put-in and a lay-up.
Thing to note: Even though the C runs between 168 St and Euclid Av, the C Line Superintendents office is still located at Howard Beach, even though the C hasn't seen the Rockaways in many years.
And back in my day, they had split shifts - the world's WORST pick. That was back when the CC was Bedford to Hudson Terminal only, round trip.
Fortunately (for me), RTO did away with split shifts a long time ago, and considering the "safety" spiel that they preach, it's highly unlikely to come back (but you never know).
I was one of those splitters ... and at the time I was told that I might get a pick OUT of that kinda stuff in ten years. Not exactly what I would have called motivational. And to make matters worse, I lived at 205th/Bainbridge and had to report to Stillwell for BOTH "sections" ... oh joy ...
How do they work it today? A lot more TO's and conductors are needed during rush hours than during the day. Without split shifts, what do those extra crews do all day?
Do they use overlapping shifts during peak times?
Damned if I know ... back in those days, we got lectures from the wiglets as to "how VERY important you are" ... yet I got treated like crap and nickeled and dimed to death. When I ran afoul of management's vision for a "white boy from the Bronx" and associated with "the wrong element who promised me they'd burn a watermelon on my lawn in my honor", I managed to have a "yard incursion" and well, the rest is history. Happens to "probies with a bad attitude" ... at least then. And my fellow "motormen" tell me that the "Guido table" hasn't changed since I left ... well, that's just the way it was and the stewards told me, "maybe ten years from now you'll be off the split pick, but get used to it."
I would imagine absent that HORRIBLE work rule, they've scheduled a lot of people for BIZARRE shifts, called the 4am to noon a shift, made a noon to 8pm shift, runs trains they don't need to in the afternoon and actually run a decent number in the dead of night when no one's riding. Either that, or they had to SEVERELY cut back on 10AM to 4PM trains causing overcrowding.
Split shifting was a way of life back in my days ... it worked for the TA and the "cherished customers" with plenty of trains when they needed them even if the folks who DID the trains went through hell for a 40 TPH schedule. Bet they don't do THAT anymore either. :()
A man no I.D. was struck by a n/b train heading to NYC. The main line was tied up over an hour. The Prince Georges P.D. said a heavy fence protects this area. He would have to have worked very hard to get thru. The incident hapened at 2:30 Sat.
According to an item in today's Baltimore Sun, the fatality was officially classed as a suicide. The person has not yet been identified, according to the Prince Georges County Police.
Please!
Can we have a new message board:
1. SubTalk
2. BusTalk
3. R68 is slow/RedBirds are Wonderful/Dont forget the slant 40s.
For the record, I have no opinion about the speed/acceleration/hipponess/coolness/rustiness/paint job/faux wood. Its just that in the absence of any new information the argument has become circular.
Please, take it somewhere else.
Faux wood! I love the faux wood!
Sorry. Knee-jerk 46-lover. It's a sickness, I know.
Dan
Oh Gaaaawwwwwwwdddddd!
I never knew that the TA tested an r142 on the 7 last year during the subway series/world series. the bad thing is it FAILED. its somthing with the third rail. it does not make positive charge or somthing like that.
There was never an R142 on the 7.
Believe me.
-Harry
Of course not. Everyone knows that electricity is negative charge. Had it been positive, the train would have run in reverse when put in forward!
The same thing happens with lightning. Most thunderstorms produce negatively-charged lightning. But there are rare cases of positively-charged lightning; in those cases, the thunder precedes the lightning as the ions travel backwards through the phase change.
Is the positively charge lightning also the lightning that goes up instead of down?
I'm not a meteorologist but I think most lightning is ground to cloud and not as conventionally thought of. Todd?
Lightning starts as a negtive charge dipping down from a cloud. When this "stepped leader" gets near the ground a channel of positive charges moves up from high objects on the ground. Whichever one meets the stepped leader first triggers the lightning. The electrons flow to the ground, and then back to the cloud. When they surge back up from the ground this is the return stroke, and causes the visible bolt of lightning. There can be several return strokes but they can appear as one because this happens to quickly to notice with the naked eye. I've seen special slow motion video down to 100th of a second, where you can see the less visible stages of the lightning.
One guy who was filming lightning was very lucky, a channel of positive charge rose from a grass blade a few feet away from him, but fortunately for him, this did NOT connect to the stepped leader.
Lightning is one of my favorite acts of nature. I sure hope the MTA gets those track workers off the Els in thuderstorms, since an elevated steel railway is a good conductor of electricity and prone to getting hit by lightning. So how many of you have rode an elevated line in a thunderstorm? I never have yet, hopefully I will have an opportunity soon. I imagine as long as you're inside the train your safe.
The Rockaway Line is good for Summertime pyromaniacs. The bumping block on 4 Tk at Rockaway park Yard was hit in 1998, and there are numerous AC Power failures out there from strikes. Something about Jamaica Bay and the NY Harbor keeps thunderstorms rolling faster than most car equipment.
That does not suprise me at all, almost all power is from overhead wires from LIPA out in the Rockaways. And there's only one or two main subtransmission lines that power the peninsula in the first place, and they are all on high wooden poles that are easily subject to strikes. Since it's surrounded by water, these poles can easily be the highest objects.
A suggestion for NYCT is to somehow get the power from the mainland (ConEd) to power the Rockaway line using underground (and under-water) cable, which is far more reliable than using LIPA's rather unreliable supply to the area.
It seems western Nassau county and the Rockaways have yet to see any major upgrades of the electrical supply by LIPA, so frequent storm related outages are common there.
Train Dude, you are absolutely right. There are "leaders" that extend out of clouds, but the main stroke is upward.
We've been through the "are you OK on a subway train in a lightning storm" thread recently, but since someone will ask, yes, as long as you are away from the STORMFAN WINDOW, you are protected by the "Faraday Cage." See your local science museum for more.
Thanks Todd.
Chris - this post and your post regarding the installation of the redbird brake systems on the R-142s, lead me to one conclusion. I'm not sure what it is yet. It's not fully formulated. I do know that it involves the magnetic fields surrounding your brain, black holes and ideas that can only be described as CA-CA. Sorry I can't be more precise but thank you for not choosing a career path that involves me.
when was the "ready made for scrap" r-142 tested on the #7 line? did anyone get at least ONE snapshot of this ?? hmmmmm....??
In order for a photograph to be taken of a train of R-142s on the Flushing Line, a train of R-142s would have had to be on the Flushing Line. Since this never happened, there are no pictures of it happening.
David
Also, if you feel the R-142s are having problems, I have one term for you: R-44/46.
Thank you.
Dan
Some of us who aren't thrilled with some aspects of the R142 are similarly not thrilled with some aspects of the R44/46 (including the faux wood).
There was a fundamental shift in car design with the R44. Some of us think the old way happens to have made more sense.
got that right !! ( thank you )
How did you know the R-142 was doing Testing on the (7)? Any Photos of it?
Why doen't the TA take off the brakes from the deadbirds and put them on the r142's??? sounds good
A solution was found, a solution was tested, a solution is being implemented. No other solution is necessary until/unless a different problem crops up. As for using brake packages off the Redbirds, it's possible to do it, but why saddle the R-142s with brake packages that range in age from 10 (the last married-pair R-33s to go through GOH) to 38 (the single-unit R-33) years old? The air brake system (which is where the R-142 problem was) isn't too different technology-wise from the ones on the Redbirds; the electric braking system is, in that it contains power regeneration capability (which makes them VERY energy-efficient), but that's not where the problem was.
David
The truth is, who needs brakes?
Putting a stationary train in the path of a moving train is guaranteed to stop the moving train :-) Who needs brakes?
I believe CSX recently did a trial with that new technology in Ohio ...
That new technology has another bonus: in addition to not needing brakes, you don't even need a train driver either!
Heh. Soon they'll be handing remote controls to the passengers. :)
Oh yeah! Wonderful idea!
We'll take the screeching, inefficient, filthy, 35 year old brakes off of the decrepit rusting redbirds and put them on the brand-new, high tech, energy efficient, regenerative braking R-142s, thus solving all of their problems until the rustbird brakes vanish in a puff of red dust.
Brilliant!
Dan
I think that they should use the compressed air system on the cars to blow a jet of air forward on each air so the the reverse trhust will stop the car. The jet nozzle can be placed on the underside of the cab end of each "A" unit.
BMTJeff
Great idea! Did any of your ancestors ever stand upright?
My friend GreenSignL (New to the board) and I were discussing this on the way home today. We came up with several solutions.
One of them was to cut holes in the car floors and have passengers stick their feet out at a signal from the conductor (Very effective on "The Flintstones.").
Alternately, using special trains fitted with shovels, scoop the muck that lies between the tracks and pile it in the trackways in stations, so that when trains enter the station they get caught in the platform-level muck and slow down very efficiently.
The MTA could attach grab bars to the outside of the trains and distribute harnesses with bungee cords attached to all riders. When the train enters the station, passengers on the platform hook on to a nearby grab bar and attempt to run in the opposite direction.
Finally, one word: Gnomes.
Dan
lol.. very well thought out danny... here are a few more i cooked up:
hand out giant gumballs to each customer on the platform.... when the train is approaching, as a warning signal is tripped all the passengers will be told to chew. When the train almost enters the station, have everyone hawk out the gum on the tracks. Quick and easy. And Rats love it.
or
or maybe a giant, retractable wind-tunnel motor in the tunnel ahead of the train...
or
i know!!!! explosive charges underneath each wheel detonate in succession, changing the wheel from a round, smooth surface to a very square one. gradually, the bumps will slow down the train.. if the tracks aren't blown away
or
huge mice. they will scare the shit, living or dead, outta the conductor and force him to hit the brakes way in advance. or, the rats could act as huge shock absorbers. use the money saved to hire ratfeeders (oh wait, that's what commuters are for)
Roy
Wow ... and I thought *I* was nuts. I tip my hat ... I hope that's my hat ...
you are nuts!!!
glad to see some inspired lunacy being applied to this issue...
how about applying some physics to the situation... although i have never understood the principle, nor do i have any desire to have someone explain it to me--- when the train operator or computer desires to stop the train, a signal is given to have all the passengers run toward the front of their car, thus causing a retarding effect on the train's forward speed... should conditions require an emergency stop, all storm doors will open and customers will be able to run forwards for the full length of the train or part thereof to cause a complete stop...
then when it is desired to accelerate the train, said customers can run toward the back of each car...
Heh. I'm *honored* to have a professional diagnosis!
While I realize that you probably don't much care for the scientific mumbo-jumbo, the floor show involving convincing the geese that they're an active part of the subway experience is merely an excuse to relieve them of $1.whatever for the ride. As all of us involved in subway technology at some point in our lives know, the trains actually run on distilled spirits or fortified rot gut wine such as "Night Train" or during the rush hour, Gypsy Rose. What many here don't know is that the slower running trains of today are the primary result of the removal of Bartles and James from the Command Center.
But the demand by crews for the passengers to run the length of the train does help to convince the customers that they are actively involved in their transit experience which does put a smile on their face that lasts long enough for them to make it to the street level, satisfied that they accomplished something today. :)
yep. physics are important alright. so are psychics, but that's beside the point. it really is a shame these brand new cars have these problems... it seems a bit wierd, as when i'm standing up and the train hits its brakes, the force seems quite powerful.
... it seems a bit wierd, as when i'm standing up and the train hits its brakes, the force seems quite powerful.
What really strikes me as odd is that here you are, musing over the complex electro-pneumatic problems that are plaguing the sophisticated R-142 braking systems - struggling with problems of micro-processors and differential pressures. All this dedication and deliberation and yet you have not yet figured out that WIERD is actually spelled WEIRD.
(Cheer up though! Wienie is spelled with the I first)
Yes, but that's because you ride R-142As, whereas the braking problem exists only on R-142s.
Dan
How about a new type of "dynamic" brake: Hamsters running around in little treadmills generate an eddy current, which slows down the motors.
Better yet...since there's probably no money in the MTA Capital Budget, since all available funds were used for 2,376 more studies of a Second Avenue S(t)ubway, the treadmill will be fueled by a large vaccum which sucks "track rabbits" (aka, rats) into the brake/treadmill mechanism.
Guess I've been working too hard...
Danilm:
You know GreenSignL huh? You musta convinced him too come here. I tried badgering him into posting, but to no avail.
While on the topic, I might as well ask now: Is anyone here a part of the Stuyvesant H.S. 'Straphangers' club?
GreenSignL and I are in the same class at Hunter College High School, which is highly underrated but obviously the best school in the city to produce someone such as myself.
I opened quite the can of worms here, didn't I.
Dan
PS: I'm not.
>>GreenSignL and I are in the same class at Hunter College High School, which is highly underrated but obviously the best school in the city to produce someone such as myself.<<
I knew 'GreenSignL' since 4th grade.
Hunter is not overrated. It is a school that is considered to be one of the best in NY.
Stuyvesant is considered to be one of the best in the country.
Ahem... Brooklyn Tech is also on that list of the best High School in teh country.
Used to be. Tech used to be better than Stuy. But recently tech has gotten worse, although it's still a good school.
Yes... I recall now... the curtain in the auditorium only says 1998 - 99.
How long has Hunter been Coed? Back in my dating days - it was all girls - or as Tom Cruise referred to it, "A target-rich environment."
Heh. Hunter was all girls? Stuy was all boys. That's funny.
Walton, Clinton ... woohoo ...
If memory serves, the first freshman class (that means 7th grade)
to admit males was in 1978.
The College has been coed since 1964.
1978 seems a bit late. Wouldn't there have been myriad lawsuits? Stuyvesant began admitting girls in 1969 after a lawsuit by one.
I don't know if there were lawsuits or not. I entered the school
in 1981 and the senior class was either the first or the second
mixed class, so I guess they entered in fall 1975 or 1976.
In that era the concept of reverse discrimination was not yet
popular, so there was more pressure to admit girls to an all-boys
school than vice versa.
You're a Hunter alum? Great! I'll bet you had some teachers who are still here; did you have Ms. Eichler or Ms. Warner?
Dan
Hunter's been coed for about 25-30 years, since the early '70s.
Dan
isn't that club dead? My friend used to go to Stuy (good thng he quit) he said he joined buut after 2-3 mettings they never met again/\.
>>isn't that club dead? My friend used to go to Stuy (good thng he quit) he said he joined buut after 2-3 mettings they never met again/\.<<
Seems alive to me. They recently organized a trip to Philly.
Quitting Stuy was a good thing? I can only wonder....
Quitting Stuy was a good thing? I can only wonder....
Well, if you'd rather be a mobile boozemonger than a rocket scientist... (sorry, I just saw that stupid ID the father commercial and booed heartily)
What the hell are NIMBY's?
NIMBY mans: "Not in my Backyard." In other words, people want improvements in their lives but the infastructure built somewhere else. Take power plants, or a perfect example is school buildings. Everybody agrees that more schools are needed because of overcrowding, but yet no one want that school in his/her neighborhood. Just build it somewhere else.
Thanx
[Just build it somewhere else.]
That sums up NIMBY perfectly. Other acronyms that arise in the same context include LULU (Locally Undesirable Land Use) and BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody).
BTW, the NIMBY phenomenon isn't just a US thing. There's a particularly loud NIMBY group in London that's trying to stop a proposed fifth terminal at Heathrow Airport.
>>> the NIMBY phenomenon isn't just a US thing. <<<
Of course not. It is a human thing and the only place where it will not appear is in totalitarian states where the people are afraid to express themselves.
Tom
Yes. NIMBYs have First Amendment Rights.
But so do I: Down with NIMBY!
>>> Down with NIMBY! <<<
Ron;
I am surprised to see this attitude from you. I did not realize you were such a fan of Robert Moses and his style of build anything and damn the residents of neighborhoods that are destroyed. This is the true anti NIMBY stance.
I have opposed my share of zoning variances so I understand the desire of homeowners to protect their property value and neighborhoods.
Maybe you are the rare exception who would welcome a land fill garbage dump or oil refinery (our president tells us new ones are badly needed) a quarter mile up wind of your property, which might be your biggest single investment, but I doubt it.
I think it is more likely that you call those who oppose projects YOU believe are beneficial NIMBYs but would be horrified if all zoning laws were eliminated, so anyone could build anything THEY believed was beneficial next to you.
A more rational approach is to realize that NIMBYism is a normal human trait, which is to be expected whenever change occurs. The planner of any large project must expect it and deal with it. Pounding one's chest and decrying the obstructionist NIMBYs does no one any good.
Tom
"I have opposed my share of zoning variances so I understand the desire of homeowners to protect their property value and neighborhoods."
Assuming, of course, that that is what, in fact you are doing. Often, that is not what a NIMBY is doing. And of course, NIMBYs often feel they are protecting the neighborhood by keeping "them" out, in blatant disregard of fairness and constitutional rights. This is a long-time phenomenon and was reflected years ago by restrictive covenants.
Having said, however, you are certainly right. Every homeowner (and RENTER too) should pay attention to the projects proposed for their neighborhoods. You provide some examples of why they should. Concerns should be voiced and addressed. Some projects should not be attempted.
An individual homeowner, however, does not, and should not, have absolute veto rights over a given project because: a) that may not reflect the true needs and desires of the community b) the project may affect a lot more people than just the particular geographic area where it is built, and the effect (cost and benefit) on everyone must be considered.
So your non-perjorative definition of NIMBY is quite accurate.
However, I wish now to resume my exercise of First Amendment rights:
Down With Nimby! Down with Nimby! Down With Nimby!...
I thought NIMBY's were a group of blacks.
Down with Nimby! Down with NIMBY!
Anybody have some garlic handy?
To bring this thread somewhat back on-topic, and to illustrate an interesting twist on NIMBY-ism...
There's a group of activists in upper Manhattan who are claiming "environmental racism" because of all the bus depots located in minority neighborhoods. They want the depots moved out of their neighborhoods, and they want it done yesterday.
The thing is, those sites - Kingsbridge, Hale, Manhattanville, Amsterdam, 126th Street, and 100th Street - have been used as transit facilities for DECADES, since the days when those "minority" neighborhoods were "white" neighborhoods. Plus, the activists even tried to claim that, because the old 132nd and 100th Street depots were torn down and the sites were temporarily vacant, the replacement depots represented totally NEW land uses and thus should have been subject to the city's Uniform Land Use Review Procedure. (Of course, that didn't work - bus depots are permanently classified as "manufacturing" in the city's infamous Zoning Code, so they can be torn down and replaced "as of right" without any review.)
On a non transit related note, after 15 years of fireworks in Hempstead Harbor, the town of North Hempstead has decided to cancel the Memorial Day event because of complaints about noise, traffic, and outsiders.
Sure our veterans fought to preserve our freedom only to have a few loudmouth NIMBY's ruining EVERYTHING! The event brought even this sleepy town to life! Now sadly, even that has been taken away from us.
Any good ways to get to the big July 4th NYC fireworks with transit?
On the one hand, people naturally want to improve their environment, and bus depots put a lot of diesel into the air. Certainly local residents suffer from this. They see LNG fueled buses going to the suburbs, and they want MTA to do something about their neighborhood too.
On the other hand, these facilities have been there a long time, and I would be loathe to remove good-paying jobs from a place which has suffered from inordinately high unemployment in the past. It's the easiest way to invite back the drug dealers and gangs NYC worked so hard to get rid of.
There are ways to compromise on this.
Manhattanville stores hybrid busses, and is being upgraded for CNG capability.
I believe the MTA has also decided to install CNG capability at 100th Street, and (while I'm not sure), it's in their long-term plan to get rid of Amsterdam.
As for these complainers, they claim their high rates of asthma are caused by bus depots. On the contrary, it's caused by the FILTH that they live in, with rat and roach infested apartments. However it is the "American Way" to blame someone else for ones own misfortunes.
Well, you're right and you're wrong.
Yes, the environment they live in (roach droppings are famous triggers for asthma) contributes a lot, but studies have shown that diesel exhaust, because of its high particulate count, does too. So there's a reasonable basis for their complaints. Additionally, residents do not always "cause their own filth." That's a very uncharitable and unfounded myth.
However, some people claiming to be spokespersons for everyone else do often unfairly blame others for misfortunes.
If the MTA can mitigate air pollution by improving the bus depots, introducing LNG buses, or other measures (???) I'm all for it.
but studies have shown that diesel exhaust, because of its high particulate count, does too
If that was the primary cause (I'm not saying its not one of many causes) then asthma problems would be worse in other areas with heavier traffic.
Additionally, residents do not always "cause their own filth." That's a very uncharitable and unfounded myth.
And who keeps their apartments dirty leading to the attraction of the roaches?
"If that was the primary cause (I'm not saying its not one of many causes) then asthma problems would be worse in other areas with heavier traffic."
I agree with you. Some of the advocates will claim their air is the worst in the city. Statistically, they're likely to have a problem, but I will not tell you that their neighborhood ranks #1 without data.
Still, if the MTA can respond to it appropriately (and you have posted examples of good responses), that's great.
"And who keeps their apartments dirty leading to the attraction of the roaches?"
If a building is poorly maintained when you move in, you could spend all your waking hours cleaning and it won't do any good. Landlords and building maintenance cos. bear responsibility here (as does the city for enforcement). Plumbing and construction maintenance are at issue, among other things, as well as appliances, which may or may not belong to the residents (my refrigerator belongs to my landlord, for example). But I certainly believe residents should make every reasonable effort to maintain their own places in good condition.
Things have gotten better over the years, but there are still problems.
("If that was the primary cause (I'm not saying its not one of many causes) then asthma problems would be worse in other areas with heavier traffic."
I agree with you. Some of the advocates will claim their air is the worst in the city. Statistically, they're likely to have a problem, but I will not tell you that their neighborhood ranks #1 without data. )
City Planning did an analysis for a conference on environmental health issues. It showed that asthma rates were high in poor neighborhoods, whether adjacent to industry and highways or not (ie. Bedford Stuyvasant). No correlation at all with environment, near total correlation with poverty. Time series would show asthma getting worse while air quality gets better.
What's going on? I don't know. Housekeeping has gone downhill relative to 50 years ago in stressed households -- ours, let alone dysfunctional single parents. It is probably worse than 100 years ago, but 100 years ago folks didn't live that long and these environmental maladies may have been there but drowned out by serious pestilence.
The Transit Industry as a whole fights any attempt to move away from diesel, because it is under pressure to cut subsidies and diesel is cheap and reliable. However, I think diesel buses are one reason that transit has become the mode of those who have no choice. Let's how the alternatives develop and start working better.
You make a very reasonable argument here.
I agree with Ron. Roaches aren't necessarily attracted to anything in the apartment itself.
The last apartment I had in Illinois -- thankfully it was only a five-month lease -- was with the worst landlord in town (according to the UIUC Tenant Union's complaint file). My apartment had a serious roach problem. Now, I'm not the cleanest person on earth, but when it comes to food, I keep things pretty clean. I wouldn't let a dirty dish sit for an hour without washing it. I sealed all my grains in plastic bags or put them in the refrigerator (which, incidentally, was at least 40 years old -- it had a latch instead of a magnetic seal and didn't have a real freezer, which led to the spoilage of much of my meat, which I couldn't buy locally). The roaches continued.
The problem wasn't in my apartment. For one thing, my neighbors were slobs like you wouldn't imagine. The hallway floor outside their door was routinely littered with food wrappers, chicken bones, etc. Sure, the landlord had a cleaning staff -- well, once every two weeks, somebody would come by with a broom. (A broom? On a carpeted hallway floor?) For another, the laundry room -- abutting my apartment -- was so filthy I took all my laundry to a laundromat. The floor was swarming with insects.
I suggested to the landlord that the hallway needed to be kept clean and that the laundry room should be fumigated and the floor replaced. No, that wouldn't be possible -- replacing a floor costs money, and why should the landlord spend money on maintenance? Instead, the pest control guy was sent to my apartment (they sure spent a lot of money on him!). Between his baits and the bomb I set off before I went out of town for a few weeks, the roaches stayed out.
Oh, yes, this was a violation of Champaign building code. I could file an official report, which would give the landlord a warning. A month later, if I complained again, an inspector would come out, and if there was still a problem (i.e., if there happened to be any roaches around when the inspector showed up -- and unless he showed up at night and turned on the lights, he probably wouldn't see any), the landlord would be fined a whopping (IIRC) $75. Then again, I suppose that's more of a fine than what the city levies against those property owners who don't clear their sidewalks of snow and ice -- i.e., practically all of them (except, to some extent, UIUC itself).
[...diesel exhaust, because of its high particulate count....]
Yes, diesel exhaust can be "particularly" sooty, but clean-diesel techologies, such as the trap oxidizers used by NYCT, can offer a very good level of mitigation for a much lower cost than a complete conversion to CNG or other fuel.
On a related note, Audi has introduced a new automobile that gets 78 (!!) miles per gallon. However, it won't be allowed in the US because it uses diesel - the existence of trap oxidizers is ignored. That sounds like a subject for a lively envionmental debate (to be held elsewhere, of course).
"Yes, diesel exhaust can be "particularly" sooty, but clean-diesel techologies, such as the trap oxidizers used by NYCT, can offer a very good level of mitigation for a much lower cost than a complete conversion to CNG or other fuel."
The new hybrid diesel technology does have a lot of potential, and I think a trial by the TA is a good thing. You're right about the relative conversion costs. It is a newer technology though, so we don't have data proving its worth just yet.
"On a related note, Audi has introduced a new automobile that gets 78 (!!) miles per gallon. However, it won't be allowed in the US because it uses diesel - the existence of trap oxidizers is ignored. That sounds like a subject for a lively envionmental debate (to be held elsewhere, of course)."
This deserves serious attention from open-minded people. Thank you for an excellent post.
Of course that Audi and cars like it wouldn't be imported. The gas companies - which are, remember, well-connected to "President" Bush - would have a fit. High gas mileage means lower profits for the oilmen. So does increased use of mass transit. And. We. Won't. Tolerate. THAT! Would we?
(Of course that Audi and cars like it wouldn't be imported. The gas companies - which are, remember, well-connected to "President" Bush - would have a fit. High gas mileage means lower profits for the oilmen. So does increased use of mass transit. And. We. Won't. Tolerate. THAT!
Would we?)
I'd like to see him stop it. People and businesses were stupid and lazy when energy prices were low, and the government didn't have the guts to fight the market. The question is, will the government try to fight energy conservation and alternative sources -- by susidy or other means -- when prices are high?
SUV sales are declining. Fuel cell research is booming. Transit ridership is rising. And in California, they can't keep compact flourescents on the shelf. Bush gonna stop that?
And for those of you who don't remember... back during the gasoline price hikes of 1979-1980, we paid about $1.40/gallon for unleaded - which is the equivalent of about $3.30 in today's dollars. And we did it driving cars that averaged 30% fewer miles per gallon less than the average of today's fleet - including the SUVs.
I'm not complaining.
Disclaimer: in 1980 we owned a '79 Pontiac Bonneville and a '74 Plymouth Fury Gran Sedan, which averaged 17 and 12 mpg respectively in a mixed bag of driving, for a fleet average of 14.5 mpg. Today our family fleet consists of a '92 Thunderbird (24 mpg), a '94 Mustang convertible (26 mpg), a '96 Windstar (21 mpg), and a 2000 Taurus (unknown, we just bought it last week to replace the '93 Sable that was wrecked - that car got 25 mpg), for a fleet average of 24 mpg.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also, there is the close cousin to the NIMBY, known as the BANANA's
((B)uild (A)bsolutely (N)othing (A)nywhere (N)ear (A)nything),
and also the KIOMFP ((K)eep (I)t (O)ff (M)y (F)ront (P)orch),
but they all have one thing in common, to stop progress.
Who gets to define progress?
Progress at times is hard to define ... at least until all the lights go out. Then you can at least tell the difference between it and regression due to NIMBYism (i.e. The Great East River Emergency Generator Battle of 2001).
I do. I am the official Progress Definer Person In Charge Of Defining Progress.
Dan
That my friend would be a tough question. Progress (my personal definition) is the expansion, improvement, and advancement of an organization, municipality, or government. The problem with progress is that it sometimes disrupts lives via eminent domain (and the concerns would be legitimate, because people would have to move), but if eminent domain is not involved, then there is the enviromental impact of the neighbord (e.g., although this may sound NIMBY, but if they plan to put a new commuter rail line in my neighborhood, then I want it to be electrified, so a new subway line would be nor problem). So my definition may differ from someone else's, but at least when someone disagrees with me, that all it is, a disagreement. I disagree with American Pig on the subject of A.C. propulsion in subway cars, but we both have legitimate points, and never attack each other (and peaceful disagreements help keep this country together).
Just moseying around eBay, the SIRT book in is offered. Current bid is $10.00.
I don't know the seller, but he/she seems to have a good rep.
Three hours after your post, it's up to $13.95!!!
It'll probably probably be stuck at that price until the last half hour or so...
What did this book sell for when it was in print?
The price was $1.25, or $1.00 (IIRC) if you were a "mailing list subscriber," of whom there were hundreds.
One ad placed in a fan magazine inadvertently said $2.50 and we received dozens of orders at that price. We refunded the difference. Maybe if the price was $2.50 then Silver Leaf would still be around ;-)
Other SIRT Book trivia (if anyone cares) the press run was 2,000. The SIRT sold the book at its St. George ticket booth and accounted for 800 copies. The book went out of print in eight months with a lot of bulk orders outstanding (including from the SIRT who steadily took 100 a month). I went to our printer for another 1000 but he lost the flats and we didn't have the money to start over again, since my brother was already working for Sam.
That certainly is a very reasonable price, even by 1965 standards!
It should be a very interesting book and I'll bet it will go for twenty or thirty times the 1965 price before the auction is over!
Yes, the R-40's are finally being made. However, we are only making 100 of them. They will be available as a 2 car set with one of the cars having a motor and the other being a trailer. They will sell for $350 (as a pair) and if you are interested in this model, we strongly recommend pre-paying for them and they will be delivered to you within 6-8 months upon completion.
Please send your payment to:
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
855 East 7th Street
Suite 3B
Brooklyn, NY 11230
*Please make your check/money order payable to Glen Katz and please print and attach this E-mail along with your method of payment.*
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at: sales@collect-corner.net.
HO?
Hello,
Thank you for your interest in the model R-40's. They will be made in HO-Scale and one car will be motorized. In addition, decal sheets will be provided so you can label the cars as you wish.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at the above address or check out the web site at:
http://www.collect-corner.net.
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
Brass,or plastic?
Hello,
Thank you for your interest in the model R-40. It will made of resin bodies and will feature metal floors. The R-40 will be sold as a two car set (assembled) with one car motorized and one trailer (for a married pair). The R-40 will also come with optional gates so you can put them on if you wish or leave them off and will come with a decal sheet so you can assign the R-40 to any line you wish with any road number you wish. The cost for the HO-Scale R-40 will be $350 for the set and we are only making a limited number of sets so we recommend reserving yours today. It will be ready in 6-8 months.
Please mail your check/money order to:
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
855 East 7th Street
Suite 3B
Brooklyn, NY 11230
*Please make your check/money order payable to Glen Katz and please print and attach this E-mail along with your method of payment.*
Thank you again for your interest in the R-40 and if you have any questions, please feel free to inquire at sales@collect-corner.net
Web Site: http://www.collect-corner.net
I wish someone would mass produce something like this in plastic. Every damned diesel engine is. Why are EMU cars condescended to by the entire model railroading industry in this country ? I don't accept the notion there is no market. The population of NYC is 8 Wyomings, to say nothing of the entire Northeast. This is not a problem in Britain, Europe, or Asia.
". . . Have ever cosidered, having a model maker, make a set of R-40's at Lionel O'27 guage. Since no one makes them, they'll be concidered a collectors items rail by buffs all over the world. "
Hello,
Thank you for your interest in the model R-40's. The first run will be in HO-Scale as a two car set (one of which is powered). The cars will come with a decal sheet with more then enough decals and number plates to decorate two cars.
The cost will be $350.00 + $7.00 for shipping/handling.
If you wish to reserve your R-40, simply mail us a check/money order to:
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
855 East 7th Street
Suite 3B
Brooklyn, NY 11230
*Please make your check/money order payable to Glen Katz and please print and attach this E-mail along with your method of payment.*
Thank you for your interest in the R-40's..
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
Well, the R-40's will be made in resin and metal as two complete cars; one of which will be powered. The gates will come with the cars, however it will be up to the customer to put them on or not so you can have them look like they did originally or how they looked after the TA found out how dangerous they were without the gates.
The cost for the two car set will be $350 + $7.00 for shipping/hanlding.
Please let us know if you wish to reserve one..
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
Finally Wayne will have something to give him a chubby besides a real slant going over 40 MPH.
According to the MTH Website - the shipping schedule (updated 5/21/01) now lists the date of shipment for the R-21s to the dealers as 6/15/01. Who knows for sure if this is accurate?
According to another board I go to, the 5/15 release date on the MTH website was a typo; they recently corrected it.
As I recall, after many postponements, they announced a June release date, and then moved it forward to May (the typo).
Supposedly, 6/15 is the date the models come off the boat; it may take another week or two until they appear at the dealers, which means a realistic release date of approximately July 1st.
According to a poster who claims to have been involved as a consultant with MTH (and I realize this could be mere heresay), MTH will offer two-car add on sets in an upcoming catalog.
The latest R-32 "release rumor" has a target date of around Christmas.
One source said that Mike Wolf told a crowd at a train show that he was interested in producing R-9's, but another source claimed differently. The most likely scenario has MTH releasing a few variants of the R-21; one possibility is an R-17 painted in 1970's silver and blue livery. (The only tooling change would be the storm door.) Another possibility (that would require some more tooling changes) would be an R-33s in World's Fair colors.
Of course, by the time these models are delivered to dealers (if at all), I might already be worm food.
According to a poster who claims to have been involved as a consultant with MTH (and I realize this could be mere heresay), MTH will offer two-car add on sets in an upcoming catalog.
I have reason to believe that the poster's status as a consultant is legit. As to the information he has posted, I have no knowledge and therefore cannot comment - but I have no reason not to believe it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I believe it too...its just that in the world of model railroading, there is so much so much conjecture passed off as fact, and so many plan changes, that there's a tendancy to take it all with a grain of salt until you see the stuff on the shelves.
This much is true, i met Mike Wolf last Tuesday 5/22 at colonial
photo and hobby here in Orlando, Florida, an he told me that the
R-21's should be in stores in four weeks, he also said about making
earlier subway cars.
In the 1925 version of the LIRR MU Equipment Handbook there is a front view of an MP-54 over a similar view of an MP-41. The MP-54 shows a standard coupler while the MP-41 shows something called a Tomlinson Coupler As you can see from the image , the Tomlinson coupler looks like the Ohio Brass coupler of R-44/R-46 fame. Would these couplers be compatible today?
Well, the image link is broken, but I can tell you that the
Tomlinson has been around for AGES. It was originally a
streetcar coupler, and there were a gazillion variants. Honestly,
I didn't think the LIRR ever used them. I thought the MP41s were
Van Dorn.
Were sorry but this page is unavalible!
When you see the "unavailable" page, click the mouse in the URL window and press . I don't know why this works, but it does, at least for me.
When you see the "unavailable" page, click the mouse in the URL window and press the "enter" key. I don't know why this works, but it does, at least for me.
In my first attempt at posting this message I enclosed the word "enter" in angle brackets, aka less-than and greater-than signs, resulting in an invalid HTML tag which was, of course, ignored. Sorry.
Yep ... that WOULD work since you're sending it from the address bar INSTEAD of from a "link" ... OPEN vs. GET ... given that they closed the GET trap door, they'll GET the OPEN too when they see enough links to the sites that don't match their ad cookies. :)
whoops we can't find your page!
Every time I go to a Yahoo page, it's unavailable! Is it something I'm doing wrong? HELP!
Chuck Greene
Might want to consider Angelfire.com for your goodies ... ain't nobody home at geocities unless they get to serve up their roasty toasty cookies and javascript exit consoles ... angelfire don't care if you deep link ...
>>> As you can see from the image <<<
Unlike the others who have posted in response to your post, I had no problem linking to the image. Our porcine friend explained the problem with another post. That site will not accept referrals from outside the geocities domain. If you right click on the link and use the "Copy Link Location" option, then paste it to the location window, you should see the image.
Or you could use a proxy server that strips the referral each time you go to a new site.
Tom
Actually, the referer is the KEY to the problem but turning it off won't help. What geocities is doing (I do this stuff for a living) is they're checking access TO those photos by checking the "referer" (it's misspelled in the 3WC RFC's themselves) to see if you came to the object FROM geocities. The CATCH is that if you put it in manually, there's no referrer at all and an explicit implication taken from the server that you came from within geocities, which is why they will give you the page.
At any time, they'll notice the cheats and fix their perl scripts to block this off as well. The software we make blocks "referer" code if you want it to, same result. The catch is the http request itself is sending along indication that it's a straight FTP request and not HTTP which is why you're allowed to get there. It uses an OPEN request instead of a GET ...
>>> The catch is the http request itself is sending along indication that it's a straight FTP request and not HTTP which is why you're allowed to get there. It uses an OPEN request instead of a GET ... <<<
I'm sure you know what you ar writing about, but I don't. All I know was I was able to get the image.
Tom
Bottom line, matters not if it works ... so goes the R68 ... whoops, blasphemy alarm! :)
My guess? Probbably not. Besides, it has no electrical portion on it :)
But I've never seen either up close, so I wouldn't know for sure...
Hey - you got a schematic for an MP-54 with a UP241 (I think it's UP 241 or 244) switch group in there? I could use a scanned copy :)
Thanks :)
The vintage H class interurban cars still used on the Adelaide-Glenelg line in Australia, had and may still have Tomlinson couplers. Unfortunately the pictures of these cars linked to this site (go to transfer station - rail web sites- trolleys, street cars and light rail - trams of Australia - now - Adelaide; or directly to www.railpage.org.au/tram/adelaide.html) don't show the couplers.
You could do a mechanical coupling to any post-Gloucster TTC subway car! As long, of course, as the necessary reguaging of one of the vehicles was done so they could run on the same track.
-Robert King
Well, The Tomlinson coupler was standard on the old Brill Bullets and Strafford cars on The Route 100 Norristown Line (but The Bullets did have an electrical connecting pod on the couplers). BTW, if you can't get the link the normal way, then right-click the link, then left-click "open in new window", then voila, the picture. That should do it.
When Penn Station opened in 1910, it was electrified from Manhattan Transfer to Harold. Where and when did the LIRR extend electrification further.
I know that Ronkonkoma (from Hicksville) was done in the 1980 and Mineola to Huntington was done in the 1970s, before that electric trains went to East Williston. But when was THAT done? and Babylon, and the branches?
When was the catenary done for Penn Station?
When did the NYNH&H electrify, and when did the NYC electrify?
The initial New Haven electrification, with the 11,500 power plant
in Cos Cob, was 1907-1908. NYC electrification began in 1907 with
Grand Central and the Park Avenue tunnels. I don't recall how far
out the power went at the time and when it was extended.
I don't recall how far out the power went at the time and when it was extended.
The original NYC installation was from High Bridge on the Harlem in 1906 and from Wakefield on the Hudson in 1907.
It was extended to White Plains in 1910 and to Harmon in 1913.
Electric service was extended from White Plains to Brewster in 1984.
The Putnam Branch was electrified between High Bridge and Getty Square in 1926.
Electrification on the New Haven started with service to New Rochelle in 1907 and to Stamford in in 1908. The Harlem River Line was electrified in 1912. Electric service was extended from Stamford to New Haven in 1914. The Danbury Branch was electrified in 1925.
Electrification on the New Haven started with service to New Rochelle in 1907 and to Stamford in in 1908. The Harlem River Line was electrified in 1912. Electric service was extended from Stamford to New Haven in 1914. The Danbury Branch was electrified in 1925.
Was New Canaan electrified at the same time as the Stamford-to-New Haven extension in 1914?
And do you know why Danbury was de-electrified?
<< Was New Canaan electrified at the same time as the Stamford-to-New Haven extension in 1914?
And do you know why Danbury was de-electrified? >>
New Caanan was electrified in 1908.
The catenary was de-energized in 1961 as an economy move. Wire came down in 1965. In 1971 the PC considered restoring electrified service but it was never accomplished.
Some good info I didn't know even though the Central electric division is one of my interests...lived in Highbridge for 22 years.
Hate to correct a good post: Highbridge is on the Hudson [line] , and Wakefield is on the Harlem line...even though Highbridge sits right at the shore of the Harlem River.{Actually there is no more Highbridge on that line)
Yeah, "Fordham" had to suffice ...
Since the Central electric division is one of your interests, do you know why on Earth the Central never connected the Putnam line to the Hudson. They were right nexto each other in Highbridge. Why weren't they ever connected?
Guess the answers to that are in the Putnam Division book. One reason being most of the line wasn't electric therefore a power change would be needed and another was having union problems with interdivisional runs. My own guess in addition would be that the Put was a stepchild that was best left to its own methods. Where the Harlem and Hudson lines were almost-rapid transit the Put was a steam version of the Toonerville trolley until the diesels and it wasn't much different later. Single track, train order operation, unsignalled, locomotive restrictions, etc etc.
You had to love it for what it was and it definitely had its own character. I was aboard for its funeral just about this date in l958!Speaking of the devil think it was May 28 or 29.
Electrification on the New Haven started with service to New Rochelle in 1907 and to Stamford in in 1908.
Did it run from Woodlawn? How did they change from rail to wire? and where is the switchover now (if it's different)?
The third rail-catenary switchover on the New Haven line is between Pelham and New Rochelle. It's basically a seamless, unnoticeable change from a rider's point of view.
Was it a seamless switchover between Pelham and New Rochelle in 1907?
Guess it has been moved. I always remembered it being North of Woodlawn Junction (guess that's east by their timetable directions) which was where New Haven trackage began.
Can't say how seamless it was in the old days. I'm sure technology has made it seamless.
When Penn Station opened in 1910, it was electrified from Manhattan Transfer to Harold. Where and when did the LIRR extend electrification further.
LIRR electrification predates Penn Station's completion. Flatbush Ave was electrified in 1905 with service through Jamaica. Electric service was extended further east in 1908.
Electric service from Penn Sta to Jamaica was opened with the station in 1910.
Port Washington was electrified in 1910.
Babylon was electrified in 1925.
Whitestone was electrified in 1928.
When was the catenary done for Penn Station?
1933
When did the NYNH&H electrify,
1907
and when did the NYC electrify?
1906
Thanks for the dates there ... VERY interesting. When was it that NYC prohibited steamers into the city limits if you happen to know? (I'm sure that was the actual inducement behind the electrification projects)
It looks like the success of the IRT convinced Tammany Hall that electric was the way to go ... dunno how familiar folks here are with steam engines, but they were dirty beasts and the embers would often set fire to the surroundings, even in the days of the Forney engines on the elevateds ... if you EVER want to get your ashes hauled and get dirty as a passenger, ain't nothing like Steam Town or a ride on the Mount Washington Cog Railway to give you a sense of why electrification was demanded in "civilized areas" ...
<< When was it that NYC prohibited steamers into the city limits if you happen to know? (I'm sure that was the actual inducement behind the electrification projects) >>
Bill passed in 1902. The RR had to electrify effective 1910.
Thank ya! I had a feeling it wasn't some sense of civic duty or "progress" behind the move. :)
Another item that pushed electrification was a collision in the Park Ave tunnel caused by smoke from the steam locomotives[causing poor visibility].So safety had a hand in the matter too.
That's an angle I wasn't aware of ... even in the "uh-ohs" ('00's) Darwin is still with us in a lot of places ... I keep forgetting about the trial lawyers assn (no need for comments) ... sorry, up here where we are, you can actually get a hunting license for attorneys ... pardon the siding here, but this gives me a unique opportunity to post a NON-railways joke here for everyone else ... please forgive me, you've seen this one, others here on subtalk haven't in all likelihood:
NYS Department of Environmental Consternation
Hunting attorneys for sport has lately become somewhat of a past time
for people. Enough so that the government has stepped in with new laws
limiting such things as who can hunt them, how many can be hunted, and
by what means...
1. Any person with a valid State hunting license may harvest
attorneys.
2. The taking of attorneys with traps or deadfalls is permitted. The
use of currency as bait is prohibited.
3. The killing of attorneys with a vehicle is prohibited. If
accidentally struck, remove road kill to roadside, then proceed
to nearest car wash.
4. It is unlawful to chase, herd, or harvest attorneys from a
helicopter or other aircraft.
5. It shall be unlawful to shout, "whiplash," "ambulance!" or, "Free
Perrier!" for the purposes of trapping attorneys.
6. It shall be unlawful to use cocaine, young boys, $100 bills,
prostitutes, or vehicle accidents to attract attorneys.
7. It shall be unlawful to hunt attorneys within 200 yards of
whorehouses, health spas, ambulances, or hospitals.
8. If an attorney is elected to government office, there will be a
$500 bounty on the pelt.
9. Stuffed or mounted attorneys must have a state health department
inspection for rabies, vermin and contagious diseases.
10. It shall be illegal for a hunter to disguise himself as a
reporter, drug
dealer, pimp, female law clerk, sheep, accident victim, bookie, or tax
accountant for the purposes of hunting attorneys.
Attorney Bag Limits:
Yellow-Bellied Sidewinder = 5
Hairless Civil Libertarian = 7
Skinny-Assed Ambulance Chaser = 12
Horse or Cattle Rustler Defender = 20
Silver-Tongued Murderer Defender = 50
Jack-Legged Divorce Litigator = No limit
Honest Attorney = Extinct
Some additional LIRR electrification dates:
1905 - Flatbush Ave. to Rockaway Park via old Rockaway Beach Branch (now A train route).
1905 - 1910: Flatbush to Jamaica and Hempstead, Valley Stream, Far Rockaway.
1912 - Long Beach Branch
1926 - West Hempstead Branch
1927 - Main Line to Mineola and E Williston
1970 - Main Line Mineola-Hicksville, and Port Jeff Branch to Huntington
1987 - Main Line Hicksville to Ronkonkoma
There was definitely several years between the electrification to Hicksville and the electrification further to Huntington. I distinctly remember when electric trains only went as far as Hicksville and you had to change for either P.Jeff or Ronkonkoma.
I remember when they electrified Westbury, (I used that station in those days) they also raised the platform then as the only electrics they used on the main line were M-1's. The old Westbury Station had a chain link fence between the tracks so you couldn't cross. When they raised the platforms and put in the third rails they removed the fence.
Sorry - the entire electrification to Hicksville and Huntington opened in October 1970. I remember it well...I got married just two months prior, so that year is really fixed in my mind. And yes..the Mrs. and I and still going strong!
What I also remember, although vaguely, is that full electric service to Hicksville and Huntington took some time to implement and replace the diesel service.
Your allusion to Hicksville as a transfer point refers to the old off peak service pattern that existed on the Hicksville-Ronkonkoma segment after 1970 and prior to the 1987 opening of MU service to Ronkonkoma. All off peak service between Hicksville and Ronkonkoma was via scoot diesel trains that connected with Huntington MUs at Hicksville. There was also one PM peak MU train, #1250 (now #2350) that ran 4:55 PM NY to Hicksville with a connection to Ronkonkoma. As #2350 it still leaves NY at 4:55 and goes to Farmingdale.
On pg 29 of "The Long Island Rail Road in Early Photographs" by Ron Ziel there are 2 pictures of the first day of electrification at Babylon Station on May 20, 1925. One picture is the first train and the other picture is of a marching band parade celebrating the event.
Ronkonkoma was done late 1987, not 1980.
Mineola-Huntington was done in 1970, but used very little until 1972.
Mineola-East Williston was done around 1930, why I can't imagine.
Lynbrook - Babylon was done in 1927 or 28.
Valley Stream - West Hempstead was 1930.
I don't know about West hempstead - Country Life Press and Salisbury.
Valley Stream - Far Rockaway in 1916 or 17
Brooklyn-Long Beach and Hempstead was 1905.
Port Washington was sometime between 1912 and 1917.
Ronkonkoma was done late 1987, not 1980.
It's obvious with my use of "the" that I merely typoed 1980s, and wasn't trying to say 1980.
Mineola-Huntington was done in 1970, but used very little until 1972.
Why? Equipment shortage? Power shortage? Labor shortage?
When were the GC yards and platforms covered over?
When did the Park Avenue open cut become the Park Avenue Tunnel (both the road one from 33rd to 40th and the rail one above station)?
When and why was Fourth Avenue named Park Avenue and why only from 32nd?
Well, which Park Avenue Tunnel? The one around 33 St or the
long one north of Grand Central to 96 St? The former is very old,
probably late 1870s, whenever the steam line moved from 28 St to
42 St and the New York & Harlaem was forced to run horsecar shuttles
from Grand Central Depot to the old station at 28 St. The north
portion was done in stages. The area from about 55 St to 96 St
was submerged in the 1890s, but I could be off on the date.
AFAIK Park Avenue was named at this time because of the median
plantings that were put in place. I think the portion south of
42 St wasn't called Park until later on.
Grand Central yard from ca. 55 St down to 42 St was a huge expanse
at grade with no crosstown through streets. The platforms were
always covered with euro-style train sheds, back in the Grand
Central _Station_ days (surely, you must have seen the pictures
of the structure with the mansard roof?) During the construction
of Grand Central _Terminal_ (surely one of the great engineering
feats in NYC history, under traffic) the huge yard area was
effectively forded by a series of structural steel bridges which
carry the cross streets over it. Take a look at some of those
streets, like 51 St, and you'll see the expansion joints and the
obvious ramp up on either side of Park Avenue.
Well, which Park Avenue Tunnel?
I explicitly mentioned both.
The former is very old,
probably late 1870s, whenever the steam line moved from 28 St to
42 St and the New York & Harlaem was forced to run horsecar shuttles
from Grand Central Depot to the old station at 28 St.
To City Hall, the old terminal was no longer useful and was bypassed. It became Madison Square Garden. This was 1871. I had believed that the tunnel had been a cut before that time, but was not entirely sure.
Is that really how Harlem was spelled?
The north portion was done in stages. The area from about 55 St to 96 St was submerged in the 1890s
How did they deal with the exhaust?
AFAIK Park Avenue was named at this time because of the median
plantings that were put in place. I think the portion south of
42 St wasn't called Park until later on.
It's THIRTY-second Street where Park begins. The first segment of Park to be named Park was from 32nd to 34th. At that time, Park was a slum because of the railroad (ain't gentrification grand?). I just don't know when. I suspected it was the median, but that seems too easy.
Park Avenue South was applied to 4th between 17th and 32nd in the 1950s or so.
Grand Central yard from ca. 55 St down to 42 St was a huge expanse
at grade with no crosstown through streets.
Did 4th Avenue go through/alongside it?
surely, you must have seen the pictures
of the structure with the mansard roof?
No.
Take a look at some of those
streets, like 51 St, and you'll see the expansion joints and the
obvious ramp up on either side of Park Avenue.
I've never noticed ramping, but I've noticed the joints. I have noticed that Vanderbilt is higher than Lexington, which is at the same level as the entrance to the terminal off of 42nd.
What's up with Vanderbilt Avenue anyway?
To City Hall, the old terminal was no longer useful and was bypassed. It became Madison Square Garden. This was 1871. I had believed that the tunnel had been a cut before that time, but was not entirely sure.
The New York & Harlaem RR[correct spelling] started at Prince St., in 1832, and worked its way north. It never extended to City Hall. Perhaps, you are confusing it with the Chambers St terminal of the Hudson River RR (1846).
Steam service north of 27th St started in 1838. It never extended further south. Service between 27th and 42nd Streets was discontinued following the completion of Grand Central Depot in 1871.
I suspected it was the median, but that seems too easy.
The median on Park Ave was originally a park, complete with walks and benches. It was wider than the current medians because it included what are now the leftmost automobile lanes.
The New York & Harlaem RR[correct spelling] started at Prince St., in 1832, and worked its way north. It never extended to City Hall. Perhaps, you are confusing it with the Chambers St terminal of the Hudson River RR (1846).
Was this the one that was replaced by the High Line? I thought it terminated near the current Holland Tunnel Exit, which was St. John's Park before (hence St. John's Park Freight Terminal). There's also a St. John's Lane east of Varick between Beach and Laight.
The median on Park Ave was originally a park, complete with walks and benches. It was wider than the current medians because it included what are now the leftmost automobile lanes.
When was this changed?
Forgive me, I'm on the road with no ready access to reference
materials, so this is from memory. First, pick up that new
Grand Central book which has a good history of the station and
the railroads into it. Then you'll see the pictures of the old
Grand Central Depot/Station. That same picture is probably around
on the web in various places.
Fourth/Park Avenue was not a through street in the area of GC Yard.
Vanderbilt Avenue was always the west limit of Grand Central, and
its named after Commodore Cornelius Vanderbilt, who was the founder,
if you will, of the NY Central.
As for exhaust in the tunnels, someone will have to help me out
with the date, but that _was_ the reason for the GCT electrification.
There was a backup in the Park Avenue tunnels, which filled up with
smoke and obscured the signals, causing a fatal collision.
Vanderbilt Avenue was always the west limit of Grand Central
Why does it go to 47th Street? The yard certainly extended north of there.
It's basically a service road for the station complex, and that's
about as far as it goes. Do you have any old maps handy? What
did the area look like in 1900?
This Map shows it going to 45th, with bridges crossing the yard at 45th to 48th.
Yeah, that makes sense, it ran alongside the station. The GCT
project created additional office building space north of 45 St,
so that's probably when Vanderbilt was extended. That map seems
to show 45 St as being a cross street at the north end of the
station, but I don't think that was the case. Unfortunately
most pictures from that era were taken of the south building
facades, so I really have no memory of what the north end looked like.
<< When were the GC yards and platforms covered over?
When did the Park Avenue open cut become the Park Avenue Tunnel (both the road one from 33rd to 40th and the rail one above station)? >>
Work to depress the tracks on Park and put them in a tunnel began in 1872 and was completed in 1874.
The lowering of the tracks started at 45th Street. An open cut with foot bridges was constructed as far as 56th Street. From 56th to 67th, a beam tunnel was built. This consisted of a double-tracked center tunnel running down the center of Fourth Ave., provided with ventilation rectangles spanned by iron beams. This open tunnel was flanked by single-tracked closed tunnels. The rectangles were enclosed by wrought iron fences and the areas around the openings were planted in trees and shrubs, giving Fourth a park-like aspect, whcih is why the street name was changed to Park Avenue.
From 67th to 71st, the tunnel was fully enclosed. Another beam tunnel carried the tracks to 80th, and from 80th to 98th the tunnel was fully enclosed again. From 98th to 115th there was a stone viaduct.
Once steam was banned in 1902 (effective as of 1910), plans were made replace the old trainshed and station and depress the tracks in the yard south of 56th. Work began in 1903 but I'm not sure when it was completed. GCT as we now know it was finished in February 1913.
When did they move the portal from 98th Street to its current location at 97th Street?
I notice that in the newer cars, there's a "slipper" that slides OVER the third rail shoes or at least that's the impression I get from what I read here a few weeks ago. Back in my days, when there was a ground out or other problem (such as a stuck relay) where we'd go down to the offending car with our wooden lever and actually break them off the cars to resolve the problem. The wood was used as a lever to snap them off the car and drop them on the ground.
So obviously my question is, do you actually have to go down now and lift the shoe and put on the slipper Cinderella style? I was fortunate in that I never had to snap off a shoe but I'd get a serious dose of the willies if putting my hands on a live rail was part of the job description now. Is this really how it works now?
In the maintenance shops we use a rubber slipper that covers the contact shoe to prevent incidental contact. I doubt that this is what you are speaking about, however. Outside, on the road, we use 'shoe paddles' or 'slippers'. These are wedge shaped pieces of wood (painted yellow) that are designed to lift the contact shoe from the 3rd rail and then seperate it so maintenance of some sort can be done. In order to lift the contact shoe, one paddle is used as a fulcrum while the other is used as a lever-first and then as an insulator. Of course, since all contact shoes are hooked in parallel - if one is hot - all are hot so every shoe touching a 3rd rail must be paddled in order for the electrocution danger to be limitied. There are obvious dangers with this system, they are:
First: a person walking along the 3rd rail could inadvertantly bump into a shoe paddle handle. This could cause the paddle to shift and dislodge it. The movement could cause contact shoe to again touch the 3rd rail, causing the car to become energized again.
Second: The paddle can be cracked or carbonized or in some other way fail to insulate the user from the 3rd rail voltage.
Third: When using the paddles to insulate a car with a 'heavy ground' condition, as the last paddle is inserted, the used can cause a dangerous arc to be drawn.
There are places where shoe paddles are necessary to use. However, I consider them the tool of last resort. In emergency situations, I would opt to pull 3rd rail power - at least temporarilly, before I would try to paddle the shoes of a car.
>>> since all contact shoes are hooked in parallel - if one is hot - all are hot so every shoe touching a 3rd rail must be paddled in order for the electrocution danger to be limitied. There are obvious dangers with this system <<<
That does seem like a very real danger. I am surprised that there is not some kind of fail safe device which would either short out the power if a shoe accidently touched the third rail while work was being done (what a flash that would make), or a secondary isolation on the car being worked on which could be opened after the paddles are in place.
Tom
Each shoe is protected by a 'shoe fuse'. They used to be 450 amps but are now around 600 amps each. Some procedures call for breaking the shoe fuses but in the case of a heavy ground, I've heard of the DC arcing across a blown fuse from one post to another. Yes it is dangerous. We're dealing with 600 volts DC fused at the 3rd rail at 100,000 amperes or more.
What about opening the main knife switch that is present under each car? Is that too risky while out on the road?
A person who works for me on the PM tour is an RCI who found out that's not the best idea under normal circumstances and a no-no under emergency conditions. He did it and drew an arc large enough that he was so severely burnt, he's been on restricted duty ever since.
Opening the knife switch does not remove the power from the trucks (trolley leads). If one is going to do it, one should first kill all 600 V circuit breakers to reduce the load on the trolley. Then tie something around the knife switch such as a rope or belt, turn your face away and pull hard & fast.
In emergencies, I have pulled the kife switch. In emergencies, I have also paddled shoes. The idea is to control the situation in the most effective way while taking the least dangerous path always maintaining that the safety of the customer is the prime consideration. The TA teaches well and those who learn, practice & remember are the ones around to collect their pension.
I 'm kinda surprised - instead of a knife switch, why not have some sort of high speed breaker (cost, weight?) for disconnecting power? I know GG-1s and a few other locos had grounding switches in them, why not grounding or dissconnect switches on subway cars. I'd assume a grounding type would pop the shoe beam fuses and the substation (this is what grounding did on the PRR's locos, only there wasno shoe beam fuse :)
Yeah but with hi-voltage distribution, the fusing amperage is
much less. If you try to ground out the third rail, you'd probably
melt the switch before the section breaker blows.
Wow ... those words came back like the kiss at the end of a hot wet fist ("those who learn, practice & remember are the ones around to collect their pension.") ... that's what they taught us when we took that section of school car. Glad I never needed to use what I was taught, but I sure do remember that and am grateful I never needed to do any of that in my short days.
"Not just for propping open doors anymore!"
If there's one paddle in each R-46 cab, but four cars in the set, you can't isolate all eight shoes, right? Is there a cut-out for each individual car?
I assume the DC is "train-lined" but I could be wrong.
Looks like he had the answer from the same place I was coming from having been confronted with, "am I REALLY going to be stupid, or to HELL with what's behind me?" Glad sanity still prevails. As a TO (if that's what I must be called for what I did) the last thing I'm going to do (besides move back the tripper and be ready to explain what happened) is go and use *WOOD* to "cut out a car." Glad that hasn't changed, especially with what the TA pays these days ... I'd be FAR more sympathetic to my current-day brothers and sisters (pardon the pun here) that I would be as a "former" prime mover. :)
600 volt DC does not go trainline by design (but it sometimes happens). Hence, you'd usually need 3 paddles to safely do any car. There should be two paddles in every R-46 cab. Unfortunately - as you correctly point out, they are used for more 'important' duties and one must search for them in an emergency.
Thanks, Bro ... I *knew* you'd come into this one, especially since it doesn't have to do with the air/speed velocity of an unladen R68. (grin). Looks like what I learned in school car STIll applies then, I was concerned from looking a the cute little booties in the pictures you had of the 143's that somehow (cab back door, having been a motorman, I don't give a crap about the happy screens on the console, but wondered what those weird thingies I saw on the bottom of the door photo were - they actually looked as though they were designed to be slid OVER the "collector" like a freaking slipper) and the suggestion of their name.
Back when I ran R9's (I'll call it a 9 rather than my usual R-whatever signature of R1/9), we were issued a board (obligatory yellow) that we'd USUALLY use just to keep the door open a bit more than the clamp would permit in summer when the car was almost empty and I was taught how to use it to snap the joints on the collectors if we needed to make a car "dark" on the road without benefit of RCI. Never needed to actually do it myself and since I had an electrical engineering background, didn't think much of the idea of "wood+humidity=death" so I'm just as happy I *didn't* got there in my (ahem) "railroad career."
Just so you know where I stand since it's been MANY MANY months sice I last said this, I often explain to my railroad buddies (REAL railroad) that "laugh as you must about the TA, here's the headways we ran and track crews could maintain the system without EVER diverting trains ... "RAIL ROAD!" was all it took to scatter the roaches, move the train through and hey, you've got a minute and a half to replace that rail. This among railroad folks who are used to a track being shut down for DAYS if something went on the ground. I've taught BLE and UTU and BMOW guys RESPECT for NYCTA ... they've gone down and checked it out for themselves on vacations. Oh, the sheepish faces. Even with the lax way things are today. :)
THANKS for the answer, dewd ... heh.
Is this something that is unique to the NYC subway, or do other subways do the same thing?
Dont know about anywhere else, but in the London Underground there are two parallel wires on insulators running throughout the system. They can be used for two things:
a) Telephone: the T/O (I think theyre called Drivers in London) can clip a handset to them.
b) Cut-out. Short them and current is removed from the power rails (both of them).
Now heres a question to argue over:
Is London safer with +300 and -300 relative to ground on two rails insulated from the running rails, rather than 0 on the running rails and +600** on a third rail?
John.
**Piece of trivia: does anyone know whether the power rail is +ve or -ve with respect to the running rails? Does anyone know whether it matters?
The power on the third rail (or trolley wire) is positive with
respect to ground. Does it matter? Well, Todd made a case that
the trains would run backwards if you flipped the polarity, but of
course we know that's not true, the only thing that might happen is
the illuminated side destination signs would flip, but they don't
work anymore anyway.
Seriously, the reason for making the third rail positive is that
it minimizes electrolysis damage when there is a bad return rail
circuit.
a) Yes, they are called Drivers in London. Hence my habit of calling operators drivers.
London would be a little safer because the running rails, or one of them, can be used as a dedicated safety ground in case of an electrical fault on a train. The conductor rails are charged as follows:
Between the running rails: -230v below ground.
Beside the running rails: +400v above ground.
In New York and Toronto, and quite possibly Philadelphia as well although I've never seen any numbers myself, the third rail and streetcar wires are both +600v above ground as were the live wires compared to the ground wires on the electric bus system before it was 'temporarily mothballed'*.
-Robert King
* Official TTC term for the situation that arises when an economic recession takes place resulting in enough service cuts to free up a sufficient number of diesel buses to replace the [very] old electric buses instead of spending [scarce] money to buy new electric buses and do a lot of work to bring the electric bus infrastructure up to date.
Yesterday (Sunday), I observed R-142 6411-6420 making simulated stops on the #5 line. I belive it ran from Flatbush Avenue to Dyre Avenue since it displayed <5>, but it was on the local track at Tremont Avenue going NB. Anyone know when to expect it on the #5.
I believe that will be the next set to enter service on the 2 this week.
Let's make that 4 train sets in service... 6311-20 are on the road again, minus Yankee Pinstripes. If 6411-20 come in this week, that would leave 6336-45 left to return to service, while everything else comes in new.
-Stef
In light of all the brake problems, let's get 'em on the #2 line first before we worry about seeing them on the #5. There is no reason to run them on the #5 (essentially a part time line) right now till the #2, a full time line, is fully served by these cars.
I would guess that we will see them on the 5 either this week or next week.
Then the better Redbirds on the #2 should cascade over to the #5 to bump off the rusted hulks there.
A good reason is for the OPTO shuttle. That was the 5 can be borrowing from the nearby 2 instead of taking (isolating) two 62A sets away from the 6.
The question is: Does the TA have enough confidence in the R142 at this particular time to run a 5 car set all by itself in #5 OPTO service while the 10 car sets are still "on trail?" I really doubt it. Also I think you should allow the train operators to get well accustomed to the R142's before you ask them to operate them OPTO style. Another question: Has the TA qualified their train operators on R142 OPTO? Again, I would be wuprised as they are still qualifying conductors & train operators how to operate them as a team. I don't see the big deal in transfering a few sets of R62A's from the #6. It has been done for several years already and they have excess cars anyway since they have the R143A's running.....I would suggest a letter written by you to the TA inquiring about the intrduction of the R142 to the #5 line to straighten this out.
Meant to type R142A, not R143A on the next to last line.
Yeah, you might also want to find out why you feel "wuprised". ;-)
Elmer Fudd,owner of a manion and a yatch.
And always twying to catch that skwewy wabbit.
That is a good point. Running a single 5 car set how can you operate in "other than head end" operation if there is a problem?
There is one other cab in the set that you can use. These things
do not have "hostler" panels like the old-time R44/46 cars.
But realistically, if a problem did crop up on the road that would
normally be solved with OTHC on SMEE, I think most supervisors
right now would rather get out the coupler adapter and push the
thing into the clear rather than mess around with unfamiliar
procedures.
True Dat
its odd to see 6411-20 to do sim run on the 5 line. unless it is not hell to reprogram the computer to do 5 line service. however that set is coming back to the 2. no R-142's are coming to the 5 line until fall to winter 2001. the redbirds on the 2 line will start to run on the 5 to replace the 42 year old R-26 until the option order comes in to replace them. however you will see one or two or three R-142's on the 5 coming this fall/winter.
One would think with all the equipment swapping that occurs between the 2 and 5 during the course of the day that we would see one on the 5 before then. It is not uncommon to see equipment assigned to the 5 running on the 2 and vice versa.
You probably aren't seeing an R-142 swap cuz they are all programmed for the #2 so far. With automated announcements and electronic stop indicator route signs, that makes a swap less favorable. -Nick
So much for flexibility of modern electronic components.
There are some R142's that have the 2 and 5 lines already programmed in. Im not sure if all of them are programmed. It makes sense to have both lines program since they are housed by the East. Ill see whats the deal later on today.
I was riding an R-142 this afternoon, I know that they are doing track work in Brooklyn, the redbird signs indicted destination Utica Avenue.On the R-142 it had 241-Wakefield and it was flashing.Are the R-142's equiped to have destination signs to all stops like all the other IRT trains?
They should since they could change the LED signs from one line to another.
they can display that but it takes hell on wheels to override and re program the computer to say that. it doesn't make sense to do that because they are only running that route for one day.
Is it really that hard? That sounds like some really terrible system design...
I rode the 2 on Monday from 42nd St to Atlantic Ave. on a new tech train. The destination said Flatbush Ave but once we were in Brooklyn the C/R made annoucments that this #2 was going to Utica.
People were totaly confused at Atlantic Ave, there was only 2 platform conductors (the rest were downstairs keeping people off the local platforms). People were jumping off and on the train, holding its doors asking where the heck it was going.
Poor job TA, if you ask me.
2s were actually operating between 241 St and Flatbush overnight. As per official GO bulletin, all 2s were single tracked from President Street to Eastern Parkway.
Why the digital signs weren't changed to read Utica Av is beyond me. Perhaps they haven't worked out a code for programming that into the computer? Well geez, R-46s have multiple programming codes for it's digital signs, no reason why the 142 signage couldn't be changed.
-Stef
not really, its more involved thats why. remember the system on the R-142 is more advanced than what you see on the R-44/46. there is automated anouncements, digital signs inside and outside, and a diagnostics system that can pinpoint problems on the train. its not just one code that does everything. the system has to be overidden and then the operator has to go into the menu to change alot of things to get the settings of for example "2 7 av express to utica ave" and then the people would have to rely on manual anouncements. and because it is hell and that fiasco was only one day, it doesn't make any sense to do all those changes. however later into the age of the R-142 their will be technology made to incorparate the ease of making temporary changes such as what happened on monday.
It shouldn't be that difficult. They have screens in there and a GUI. If they made any sense, a person should just be able to click a few points on a route to have a route plotted. All one would have to do is select the 2 route, but then select modify route, click on Franklin as position of reroute. The system would then ask Utica or New Lots.
That fiasco was not one day. That fiasco was the whole weekend/holiday. I worked on that horrible GO Sat and Mon. That GO was bad from jumpstart. And even if it is for one day, change the signs so it can say Utica. There is an Utica code for the 4 train. It says, 4: to Crown Hts-Utica Ave.
' . . . . . ???? Oh, about 2nd Avenue subway ?'
GREETINGS:
As you know New York City has been working on one subway line since the year 1927 and has not completed yet.
That line is 2nd Avenue subway. As you may or may not have known New York City subway was once privately owned and developed, but after the ' Great Depression ' and during World War II the subway fell under city and state control.
In the face of rising inflation, in relationship to the need to conserve energy within the New York City Power Pool; private individuals and companies have golden opportunity for investment and the planning , and development of the 2nd Avenue subway. With growing uncertainty in stocks, in the fluctuation of projected profits in technologies issues on the Commodities Exchange a golden opportunity is at hand to take control of certain aspects of the development of the 2nd Avenue subway to improve the mass transit intrastructure of the city of New York and for the gains of municipal improvement, environmental conservation and capital investment in a new railroad.
In the past 25 years new technologies and mass transportation has arisen the New York City transit authority, and the Metropolitan Transit Authority has clearly not taken advantage of; but for what ever reason the New York City Transit Authority like any other state-run institution operates with the gradation of a state-run institution. What 2nd Avenue subway needs a new and innovative ideas from the private sector.
I'm looking for interested parties, persons or companies would be interested in participating in planning and investing of the 2nd Avenue subway, and ultimately the 2nd Avenue Railroad Company to build; (promised in 1967) the Co-Op City line, the return of the 3rd Avenue 'El' in the Bronx, and an innovation of the 9th Avenue 'El' to serve the North Bronx from the Polo grounds.
If you have any questions or for further information (in writing please refer to the R -203 project ' Design Team' )
email: Charr65014@AOL.Com
27-May-01:10:24:21 PM
You just might be the guy to get it built, then I can go to my eternal rest in peace.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be creative. The tone of your post, and forgive me if I am wrong, suggests an approach similar to certain groups who have a propensity to want to "start over" with absolutely no backing or political support of any kind. That approach not only wastes time and effort, it also identifies the participants as people who can be safely marginalized and ultimately can do nothing except perhaps provide a source of unwelcome distraction and irritation for everyone else. Again, if that is not what you want to do, forgive me for saying so and correct me for the record.
At this particular point in time, there is a "do-able" plan in the works which has dedicated funding for design and construction start-up. Your efforts would be better put to supporting the budget which will need to be in place to complete this thing. There's an EIS (more than one); preliminary engineering began in March. Since you have no chance of "getting control" of this thing (unless you are the President of Bombardier and have just finished building AirTrain, and if you were, you wouldn't be wasting your time posting here), why not actively and creatively help the people who can succeed and could use your help in the legislature and among the community boards to keep this thing moving?
If you're good at identifying and lobbying for funds, write to:
Manhattan Borough President's Office
ATTN: Jocelyn Jacobson
One Centre Street, 19th Floor South
NY NY 10007
The Speaker of the NY State Assembly has been instrumental in getting the Capital Plan to include dedicated funds for the subway. Write to Hon. Sheldon Silver, 250 Broadway, NY NY 10007.
Other state pols (besides Manhattan) who have been helpful and supportive include Frank Padavan and Mark Weprin in Queens. I am not familiar with the whole list in the Bronx and Brooklyn.
You might want to exchange some ideas with the Straphangers' Campaign (9 Murray St, third floor, NY (don't remember the zip code) and others. Your agendas may not be exactly the same, but that's OK - they don't have to be.
If you're into design and engineering, you know that station location and design will be subject to hearings, so why not attend them and offer constructive suggestions? Or: contact local community boards, and offer to help when they discuss issues like elevators, escalators, sidewalk impacts, other buildings, open space etc. etc. with the MTA. New ideas can become reality if the communities perceive a value to them.
There's a lot you can do to support ongoing efforts - or you can make yourself irrelevant (and you have every right to do so).
Good luck.
I have built several subways on Second Avenue.
That is a fun place to build subways.
I can put the stations and connections where I want.
And it costs very little to sharpen my pencil,
and if someone doesn't like it, I also have an eraser.
I am sure that all of those plans are *still* in my file cabinet.
Oh... BTW....
I also ran a line up 5th and 10th Avenues, and made a real nice system for 34th Street.
Oh Well.....
I can draw em faster than you can build them.
Elias
Good for you, Elias. Subtalk is a great place to exercise the imagination. My previous comments were definitely NOT aimed at you.
Ron: As far as the Second Avenue Subway it concerned, that subject has been beaten to death. There seems to me that there is no point in dredging it up again and again when there seems to be little if any chance of the damn thing every being built. I'm not saying it isn't needed but no one seems intent on building it except those of us on Subtalk. Enough already, don't you think?
Fred,
I am not one to discourage anyone from trying to accomplish something. The person who wrote the original post in the thread had a goal, and proposed a means of accomplishing it. I support his aims, but suggested more productive means of accomplishing those goals. If you don't agree with those methods, fine; you don't have to pursue them.
This individual's choice of posting topics is not subject to your veto or mine, and I chose to try to give him a constructive answer.
Anyway, isn't there a letter you're supposed to be writing?
I'm going to write it this week. I'll let you know if I get a response.
That's great!
In 1963, I was in 7th grade and I had to take sheet metal shop. It was the first class where we learned about "plans". I was good at that, but couldn't figure out the difference between tin snips and a soldering iron. Anyway, to get some extra credit, I made "plans" for a 2nd Av subway, or at least the "new" portions of it. If I remember correctly, I think I had it connecting with the Nassau Loop at Bowery, with the next stop at Houston St (free transfer to the IND), at which point the system was 4 tracked to 125 St, making the traditional cross-street stops. It then went into the Bronx and merged with the 3rd Av line. My only reference material was a 1963 system map and what I knew (or thought I knew) about the existing system at that time.
Which cars are superior... R44's or R46's? Are they generally the same thing?
They are basically the same thing, but apparently the R44 had more probs. for some reason. A recent post suggested that they will be retired soon, while the 46 stays. -Nick
i think i've heard of these problems... do they include things like doors indicating that they're closed when they're not
I'm really not sure what the exact problems were, sorry. -Nick
Nah... that's with the R142s (and R142As when new.)
>>i think i've heard of these problems... do they include things like doors indicating that they're closed when they're not<<
This was before their Overhaul. There aren't any serious problems with the R-44's now, though their MDBF is still somewhat shaky. The R-46's are doing much better. However, the R-44's are still doing just fine.
it is a fact that the R-44 is going soon. it is falling apart physically and mechanically. they are also starting to corrode on the outeside. the R-46 is staying for another 10 years or so.
The Mean Distance Between Failures for the R-44 fleet in March 2001 was 67,239 (February's was 92,807). While that's not up to most of the rest of the fleet, I'd hardly classify that as "falling apart mechanically." As to whether the R-44s imminent demise is a "fact," the 660-car R-160 order is not meant to replace any R-44s; that would have to wait for either the following order or an add-on to the R-160 order, neither of which is official at this time.
David
The R44's ride horrible. They almost remind me of 75' redbirds, except the redbirds are faster.
The R44 is probably not going to be with us in 2005. What about the SI R44 units?
They're very similar, but R-46s have a few points in their favor.
The R-44s have a strip running around the car about 1/4 up from the bottom of the carbody that used to be painted blue. It's now silver, but it's not stainless steel and it's rusting. The R-46s are all stainless on the sides. (But not entirely, the car ends are not stainess. [Are they metal at all? They look like fiberglass to me])
The operator's cab on the R-46 is bigger than that of the R-44 and the door to enter the cab is also larger and sliding, as opposed to hinged.
On the R-44 there are glass plates to cover the opening above the seats next to the doors, apparently to keep weather and/or asses from molesting the passenger sitting in the end seat next to the door. I'm ambivalent about these--on the one hand they protect you from people leaning on the door and they give door standers a place to lean, on the other hand I don't like them.
Dan
i meant mechanically... which cars are faster? Are they technologically similar? Are their release dates the same?
There have been a bunch of posts on the differences mechanically between the R44's and R46's both pre and post GOH. The R44's were tested on LIRR tracks where they exceeded 80 MPH.
The R44's were in service prior to the R46's by about 2-3 years (circa 1972-73 for the R44's and 1975-76 for the R46's)
I think it was the R46's that were tested and exceeded 70 MPH on the LIRR tracks. I think they were created to run on the super-express 2nd Avenue tracks or the Queens super-express or both, but obviously that was never done. Also R46s were TA's big folly because of their mechanical problems in the 70's when they were first made. I am not aware of such problems for the r44 however.
Also, it was the R46's problems that took Pullman out of subway manufacturing.
so was the 44"s.The cars arrived from St. Louis Car with a P-wire system problem. Thats the holster control[single handle,sliding control]with stop and go in on unit[for those that didnt know] Framing under the car body was to weak and subjuct to cracking,and the car bodies werent built as well as the Pullman R46"S. The truth is,the first 20 cars were rejected in 1970 because of framing problems,and because ST.LOUIS CAR was responsible for the whole car[ a new policy],the cost of repairing the problems gave them more of a head ache than a stamppead of elephants! The R44 in fact made them throw in the towel. you see, they took a chance on building the cars for the TA,because it was a money losser.THEY in fact built this contract for the TA in order to get the next contract[R46]which was a larger order for 745 cars[changed to 754 later]. The TA didnt give the order to st louis because of the crappy craftmanship of the R44'S.
When they did that test...didn't they blow out a few motors in the process?
Yes, but I don't know if it was the 83MPH or the 650 volts (as opposed to 600v) that did it.
It was the R44s that were run in that infamous test. The voltage
on the LIRR was and is 750, as opposed to an average of 625 on
the subway. The train did reach over 80 MPH. As for the traction
motors blowing out, I've heard the story both ways.
With all the problems that the R44 and R46 experienced, it is funny how they still seem to run better than the R68...but I dunno if that was because of the rehab in the early 90s, or if they actually just managed to work out the bugs in a long period of testing. -Nick
"Seem to" is the operative term here. It's COMPLETELY subjective. The numbers say otherwise. In March, the R-68 fleet traveled roughly twice as far as the R-46 fleet did between breakdowns, and about three times as far as the R-44 fleet did.
David
You have it backwards but that's OK. The R44 were the ones that did the high speed run and were the crummier cars...despite exhaustive tests before full production. To answer another post on this subject I do one better: The R44 killed St. Louis; the R46 knocked Pullman Standard out of the passenger car business, and the LIRR M-1 killed Budd as it was; later Budd was reorganized.
So much for reinventing the wheel in one move.
We can always count on Ed to set the record correct. Especially during a time when he was there and done it.
same for selkirk its the hands on guys with the absolute crediability?
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
>>...the R46 knocked Pullman Standard out of the passenger car business,...<<
How'd Pullman Standard get that contract anyways? St. Louis Car Co. was pulling for that contract. They knew they were going to loose money on the R-44's, but they also knew the TA was going to make another order, a much bigger one. They hoped to get the order, to get cash. But suprisingly Pullman Standard got it, a company that was a railcar builder but not really for subways.
Had the re-organized BUDD got the R-62 order, they would still be here...
>>The R44 were the ones that did the high speed run and were the crummier cars...despite exhaustive tests before full production.<<
The thing that killed them was parts that got worse over time. Test all you want, time is the only test that finds problems like the melting wires of the R-44.
>>...the R46 knocked Pullman Standard out of the passenger car business,...<<
No it didn't. The Amtrak Superliner-I order of 1979-1981 did.
The R44's were designed by a team at the TA who were given 6 weeks to do the job by the Holy Ronan Empire.
I stand corrected with the thoughts on the Superliners. I forgot all about them; believe they started them but never finished the contract.Correct me if I'm wrong...didn't GE complete or build a supplement order of M-1's for Metro North rather than Budd?
Budd resurfaced, and built the 2600 + series about 600 cars for the Chicago el, almost sure they were Budds. It is still my understanding that they had been reorganized and German-controlled by that time after the mess of getting the M-1's to work out?
I will admit some of my memory is imperfect but I seem to remember every car project for the New York area as well as the Metroliners in the late 60's- mid-70's was a big headache and a burden on the builders.
Budd built 700 M1's: 620 for LIRR, 80 for MN
GE and Vickers built 250 M1's: 152 for LIRR, 98 for MN, and also the 244 M2 for the NH line. I don't know who built the M4 and M6 (the latter have black window surrounds and numbers that conflict with LI M1's).
Budd built the M3's.
Even though I have a strange preference for the R44 I still say when they were new the only word to describe them was JUNK. Sad farewell to St. Louis Car Co.and not much good to say about Westinghouse electric for a crummy control system. Besides they were made with too many flaws that should have been ironed out with all the testing that was done. Many retrofits cured most problems.
The R46 was a lot better built car in my opinion..to look at both the bodies looked a lot better made on the 46; performance wise they were better but had a few more garbage gadgets added. A good feature which limited R46 compatibility with the R44 was the electric brake pipe charging circuit...a train would charge in seconds. But then with electrical problems and some fires and the Rockwell truck disaster the R46 had its own problems in time.
Neither type was any prize.
While they were compatible to start with, sometime in the 1980's way before their GOH, the R44 got a pre-war style, slow release braking system, making them sound like R9's. Now they are no longer compatible. The junky trucks on the R46's was just that, and not a problem with the car itself. I suppose 300 of the R46's now are running with trucks originally beneath R44's. The rest of the R46's and the R44's got new trucks in the 1980's, all before the GOH.
Some R-46s were using trucks from R-44s that were out of for a period of time. Then all of the trucks for the R-46s were replaced with new ones. As for the cars themselves both the R-44s and the R-46s had their share of problems. The apparently better construction quality of the R-46s according to danilm will help them to outlast the R-44s to some extent. The R-44s were probably more trouble prone to begin with than the R-46s. The poorly designed original trucks of the R-46s gave the R-46s a bad name. Some of the replacement trucks had problems with cracks that surfaced in the mid-1990s but I think it turned out to be an isolated problem and the trouble apparently hasn't occurred since. You should note that a number of R-44s did not go through the GOH program and have been retired and some of them have been scrapped already. Other retired R-44 cars are being cannibalized for parts. There is the possibility that all of the R-44s will be retired within a few years as they plan to order at least 330 new cars that are supposed to replace them starting in a few years. There are no plans to replace the R-46s at this time.
BMTJeff
An article I read about the GOH program years ago mentioned that when it was time for the R-44's to receive their scheduled overhaul, there was some disagreement as to whether or not they should even bother to sink a lot on money into the fleet, since there were so many problems.
I seem to remember other posts that described structural problems; I have an old yellowed news clipping somewhere that talked about frame cracks and shoddy workmanship back when they were new.
Maybe in a few years, they'll all wind up on the line where "A" trains go to die, aka, the "C" train.
I Believe there were factions in the TA who wanted more rebuilt R27/30's to be done insteard of an R44 GOH. They would still be in the same predicament today as the Redbirds, with advanced root rot.
> Sad farewell to St. Louis Car Co.
Well, look at it this way, all the St. Louis cars are scheduled to be scrapped (Redbirds, R-38, R-40, R-42, R-44) while Budd's R-32 and Pullman's R-46 remains. Tells us a little something about St. Louis Car Co.
Actually some Redbirds were built by American car and Foundry: the R26 and R28 were the last passenger cars built by ACF, and except for the R16's, also ACF, the only cars of the standard l954-64 body style not built by St. Louis. I'm wondering if they knew the R44 was their swan song.
In terms of the look of them, inside and out, they are very similar. There have been subtle differences mentioned on these boards, but even so, if they ever replaced my (F) R46 with an R44, I'd probably be none the wiser.
There are, from what I understand, some more significant mechanical differences. It seems to mean the difference between surviving the nect retirement (R46) and heading for the scrap heap (R44).
:-) Andrew
I was watching "T.V. Funhouse" on Comedy Central last night, and they showed a clip that looked like that was from the old "Sesame Street" episodes. The parody clip was about the policeman and what he does. (A child narrates) First he is directing traffic, then he is pushing a PATH subway train, then he does all sorts of weird things. I was laughing my head off. I don't know when that clip comes on again, but watch for it.
I've seen that clip. It's not nearly as entertaining as the Anipals. Or, since you mentioned Sesame Street, the old "on the subway" skit they used to do...
Man, that was a long time ago, I've seen that one when I was a child. Maybe Noggin will have that episode. Also (something for Bus Talk), there was a clip on "Sesame Street" about the bus driver. He's driving a red Fishbowl. I wonder what city that was from?
Three weeks ago a few of us participated in a fantrip on SEPTA's Media and Sharon Hill lines that was offered in conjunction with the East Penn National Trolley Meet. I've finally scanned a few of my pics from that; if you're interested, click on the friendly Kawasaki car...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
End of the line? That pic.of Medina is the strangest terminal I've seen. The tracks just end ? No bump post, the M/O has to stay sharp.Wonder if any one keeped rolling? Outstanding pictures.
I don't think any motorman ever ran off the tracks there. It is weird though, the tracks just kind of stop in the middle of the street!
Chuck Greene
Actually at least one operator did try to "extend" the line past the usual terminus. The groves from his trip on to the street can be seen
Here
BTW - nice shots AeM
I couldn't see the picture on Angel/Fire. Did the operator have enough wire to just back up slowly, and get the trucks back on the track? Was it a newer trolley or one of the "old" models?
Chuck Greene
I wasn't there when the overshoot happened, but the evidence left behind is pretty clear. I took the shot a few months ago, so it probably happened in the past few years and certainly in the Kawasaki years.
The picture didn't load? Try cutting and pasting to your browswer.
http://www.angelfire.com/geek/rh/Philly/ra/reda.htm
- Rob
Glad you enjoyed... I have a lot of fun taking them... one of these days I'll get back to work and finish the job I started for our illustrious webmaster on the NJCL and part of the NEC... I've got another dozen or so ready to scan and a whole bunch I need to take.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
End of the line? That pic.of Medina is the strangest terminal I've seen. The tracks just end ? No bump post, the M/O has to stay sharp.Wonder if any one keeped rolling? Outstanding pictures.Is that broad guage there useing?
Does it make sense for the R44-46's to be able to outrun R68-68a's? The wierdnessof the MTA...
Roy
Huh?
Who is racing?
The wiredness of your question.
Does it make sense? I dunno. Who says the R-44 and R-46 can outrun the R-68 or 68A? Or is this one of those posts like, "........ one time I was on a R-46 at _____________ and it passed a R-68 like it wasn't even moving"
Beam me up, Caz! They're crazy down here
Is it me, or is it really that difficult to spell "weird"?
what is the url for that sloapp document? could use it asap.
Have a look here: http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/sloapp.html
John.
I had the opportunity to check out the stadium at St. George this weekend. Most of the Stadium seems to be finished or nearly so, with only the fixtures (lights, electronics for the ticket booths, etc.) and some of the barriers were still missing. I also got to see the new SIRT station under the stadium. The platform is finished, but no new trackwork to replace the old trackwork that was removed has been laid.
I had the opportunity to check out the stadium at St. George this weekend. Most of the Stadium seems to be finished or nearly so, with only the fixtures (lights, electronics for the ticket booths, etc.) and some of the barriers were still missing. I also got to see the new SIRT station under the stadium. The platform is finished, but no new trackwork to replace the old trackwork that was removed has been laid. In fact, nothing seems to have changed regarding the SIRT tracks west of St. George terminal. The station looks like it will handle 2 tracks. Now the questions:
1) When will the SIRT set up the track, signals, etc., for the new station? There isn't a whole lot of time til opening day.
2) I didn't really see any evidence of a fare-control area, but it's not impossible to add 1 or 2. Will fares be collected at the stadium stop or will it be free like all the trips not starting or ending at St. George terminal?
Did anyone ever say there would be SIR service to the stadium. I know there is a trackage right/use problem west (that's RR west) of St. George. There was even question as if SIR had the right to use the wye already there that they maintian. I thought the stadium was built with the platforms "just in case" they ever wanted to provide rail service to it.
According to the S.I. Yanks website an SIR shuttle will run between St. George and the stadium station.
http://www.siyanks.com/index.cfm?npageid=94
They fully intend to use the station. I don't know how fare collection will be handled. They hooked up what would be the inbound track to the outbound platform side. While the platform is 5-cars long, unless they run trains in and out of the St. George tunnel, only 3-car trains can be run between the stadium and the ferry, as track 10 (the wye lead) has a 'shaved' platform, and 11-14 are short platforms.
I have some pics of the stadium station I'll get around to posting sooner or later.
-Hank
Fare collection will be handled through the use of a modified bus farebox -- I'm not kidding. It was FAR less expensive than installing an array of turnstiles and one or more vending machines.
David
Just like Shea Stadium station during various sporting events when the open the doors / gates.
I don't think it would take too much to add an extra track leading from the wye junction to the station. There's enough space for it, if they get rid of the trailers.
What trackage rights problems are involved? i saw them store track maintenance flatcars some distance west of the wye a couple of years back.
Just recalling that the line is now owned by the NYCEDC, so the city says who can and can't use it, and for what purpose.
-Hank
What is up with the service on the A line between 59 and 125 (and I would assume the D also)? On Saturday and Sunday (5/26 and 27) I had the displeasure of taking several trips on the A downtown from 168 to 59, changing from the #1 as the A is an express and "faster". First, the wait was over 10 minutes each time for the A, and the platform was reasonably crowded when I arrived, so a train did not just go by, but that is par for the course. On the way downtown, we must have stopped an average of 6 times and I don't believe we at any time ever went over 15 miles an hour. On trip took over 35 minutes. While this weekend seemed especially bad, it was not all that much worse than usual.
I understand there is the possibility of a delay as the 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue lines merge south of 145 Street. But one or two holds should provide spacing for a reasonable run downtown. And, I find that EVERY time I take the A downtown (rush hour, 3AM or midday), the train ALLWAYS passes through the 135th Street local station at a dead crawl. Is this to avoid startling the homeless people who may be sleeping in the 135 St station???? When I first noticed this, I thought maybe there was a track problem at this location that required the train to slow down. But I first noticed it several years ago, more than enough time for a track problem (had that been the problem) that required minimal speed from passing trains to be addressed.
But I wonder if anyone else had problems with this horror of a line over the weekend? It is getting to the point where I'm more and more inclined to stay on the #1 local to get to 59th street, by the time I get an elevator upstairs and walk over to A, and then agonize through the A crawling downtown, I figure the #1 local would make about the same time.
Bill
Assuming no delays on the 1, it is almost always faster to stay onboard the 1 from 168 to 59 then it is to transfer to a downtown A. Ride in the third car of the 1 to be in front of the staircase and ramp leading to the IND platform at 59 St.
The area at 135th St. is known as Homeball Alley. With all the timers they've been putting in everywhere, it's no surprise that expresses seem to plod along.
You would have loved the CPW run in the good old days with the R-10s. Now THAT was pure excitement!
I have some memories of the express run with old R-10's. My grandmothers lived in Washington Heights untill about my 10th birthday (1970), so we would travel around the city from the Heights. I remember the R10's (silver with blud strip) on the A line. I also recall the older cars (I believe they are called R-1's or R-9's), that had the wicker seats and incandesant light bulbs. The older cars more or less were on the AA or CC if recall. I remember riding in them on the way to Yankee Stadium - A downtown from 175 to connect to the D (weekends) or CC (weekday games). I think the R-10 were pretty much on the A and the older cars on the CC. And what is the correct term for the older cars, I see R-1/9 used on the site often, were there several models, ranging in number from R-1 to R-9 (like the redbirds of today) or were there 2 models, the
R-1 and the R-9 or was the name actually R-1/9?
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
There were R1's, R4's, R6, R7, R8 and R9 ... since they all pretty much looked alike (some were built by ACF, some by Pullman) some of us here just lump them all into a "class" which we've arbitrarily called R1 to 9's or "R1/9" for short. That way we don't get into silly childish arguments like "WRONG!!! 689 is an R4, not an R9" and so on. :)
The R-8 was a revenue collection car. It would be sandwiched between two motor cars carrying "Special-No Passengers" signs.
Yeah, only reason I mentioned the RC was that it wasn't a TRUCK order like the "holes" in the numbering scheme. But then as we all know, the money car is a stainless steel redbird with disco lights. :)
Just my humble opinion but too bad you didn't get to ride an R1-9 on the CPW express...THAT was the real blast.
For Selkirk: after the R7 was R7a , not R8 as Steve mentioned already was the collection cars. So R7a fills that spot for passenger cars.
You had the good fortune of getting a taste of what electric railroading felt like from the early days; the R1-9 had the same sounds and feels as the original steel cars from 1904.
Howdy, guy! They truly were FUN to play with even if they scared the crap out of many of the newer guys who were only too happy to get posted on the 32,42 and 44's ... I *loved* 'em. Young guy climbing the cars like a monkey impressed the chickies. Heh.
And yeah, after all this time I got my R's mixed a bit ... after all, what did they issue us on the concourse at the time? Mostly R1's, R4's and 6's ... the 7's either ended up in Queens or other routes generally. Most of my boards were three digit car numbers with an occasional 1xxx something somewhere in the consist. I know Branford's got 1689, I got 689 often as a motor, and 429 and 100 were frequent breakers-down. I never did forget 429 ... that's the one that dropped the foot sash ...
And special secret for A train lovers ... you missed the CONCOURSE dash to and from Tremont. Yum ... :)
The CONCOURSE dash is STILL a good thing....When you can get it
Peace,
ANDEE
With shunts disconnected, I'm sure it won't be as nostalgic ... and the ride from the north end of the city took forever BEFORE they did that. I shudder to think of what time you've gotta leave home from the northern Bronx now to get to work downtown. It was a hell of a ride years ago though, especially the ride home.
You actually piloted #100? The first of the bunch? Wow! It's preserved at the Transit Museum and looks pretty good, all things considered.
The Concourse express run has always been a notch below the CPW dash, IMHO. With R-32s and R-42s, it was pretty good. Nowadays, I don't even take it anymore.
Ah, but put the two runs together in a single ride (D train) and it was heaven. The 34 to W4 wasn't a slow ride either. That was probably why I enjoyed working the D more than the A ... the A's only solo act was CPW, the D had several. Brighton Express run wasn't something to sneeze at either though you could just TELL the line voltage on that piece of the railroad wasn't up there like on the IND.
Car 100 was RARELY found on the ends ... the motor cars were often in the 400 series and up but 100 would often be somewhere in the middle. I remember 100 because it'd always make it out of the yards but it would call you to visit it at least once on a run for a stuck door valve, breaker trip or SOMETHING spitting the bit in it. It was ONE cranky car ... it was also notorious for needing the brake CO used. Often. It was a "squealer" ... heh.
I heard that for years, car 100 was actually 191, or some other number close to that. The one at the Transit Museum is the real McCoy. The last time I was at the museum, I noticed that 100 has brass moldings around the side signs (or something to that effect) while 484 has rubber weatherstripping.
Speaking of car numbers, Denver's LRV fleet starts with #101 and goes sequentially from there. There are currently 31 cars in the fleet with more on the way.
Could be ... ALL of the R1's once had brass fittings. Rubber came with the R4's ... if I remember, the "break point" from R1's to R4's was 300 ... Generally R4's and 6's tended to be the north and south motors while the older cars tended to be inside. The conductor position was often 4's and 6's also.
The R-1s were 100 to 399. R-4s were 400 to 800, IIRC. Wayne says that D train he took on 9/12/70 was a solid R-4 consist. He's got everything written down. I can vouch for at least the north and south motors being R-4s on D trains then; the last few prewar D trains I rode on didn't have headlights.
Yeah, according to what I remember 301 was the beginning of the R4's but hey, I don't mind being wrong and I don't claim to remember for certain. Back in those days, wasn't a whole hell of a lot of difference between them, except for the storm door window and some minor differences on the panels in the cabs. The R7's and 9's were rather different though.
And in September of 1970, I had JUST hit the road as a conductor, so there's a 1 in 40 chance it could have been my train. Got out of motor instruction in February of 1971 ... CPW dash was every bit as much fun on my run. :)
Due to a midday GO today (roadway construction on the north side of the Willy-B), Manhattan-bound trains are running wrong rail on the eastbound. I rode over and back today, and it's interesting to see the operation through the no signal/blind stop territory. The only signal (as you enter the tunnel at Essex) is overhead, and has a sign, "Key-by on the left wall" and sure enough, it's over there on the left side. If the T/O had to access it, s(he)'d have to stop, exit the cab, and use the opposite window.
This GO involves lots of interesting switching through the Marcy and Essex interlockings.
I didn't see the GO, Todd. Are they passing the baton?
No baton. The J train crossed over just east of Marcy; the westbound platform was closed. After crossing the bridge, we zigged back to the westbound rail just before Essex. I assume it was some kind of absolute block system, but no baton nor conductor was used.
There's traffic locking between Essex and Marcy interlockings.
No baton needed.
How is traffic locking implemented?
Is traffic locking similar to what is done on the Canarsie line... someone mentioned that going towards Brooklyn, the signal at First Av will not clear until the train enters Bedford Av. I don't know in fact if this really does happen or not, it's just something I heard.
I'm not really sure of the correct questions to ask or terminology to use.
Thanks for any info.
Shawn.
Traffic locking means, essentially, that the signals are
designed with two-way operation over the bridge tracks in mind.
This means there are appropriate homeballs protecting the entrance
to the "wrong-rail" route on each side, with corresponding approach
signals, etc. Because the signal system provides protection for
the reverse movement, the use of tokens, errr, wrong term for NYCT,
I mean batons is not required to create the manual absolute block.
The Canarsie line (or more properly the 14 St river tubes) were
not originally designed for 2-way operation and that feature was
ahem kluged on later, which is why there is that strange AK
signal in the wrong-rail direction.
I think I'd rather have the baton. If I take the J at midday I have to wait a bloody long time. Big pain in the butt.
Ain't the wrong-railing a hell of a lot faster than the regular? With only WDs on the downgrade the T/O can cruise along at 35 worry-free.
AFAIK, said GO has been in effect for a month or two and will remain in effect through late June.
The downside: the J west of Eastern Parkway (including the Manhattan section) is running at 24-minute headways and the M isn't running at all west of Myrtle.
In any case, I'm planning a full day tomorrow of running around the system, including a westbound ride over the bridge.
In case anyone's curious: I didn't make it in time. I think I just missed the last wrong-railing Manhattan-bound J. (Trains seem to be running a little earlier than what's indicated on the official 24-minute schedule which is posted at Eastern Parkway and was posted -- but is no longer -- on the GO listing at the TA's web page.)
I'll try again later -- perhaps as soon as tomorrow.
Okay, I rode it today. It was slow going all the way across. There's even a collection of wheel detectors at the descent into Essex.
Why doesen't the R42,44 and 46 cars have the blue color stripe any more? The LIRR and MNRR cars still have them.
The R-42 and R-46 don't have the blue stripe because they were removed during overhaul. The R-44 blue stripe has been painted grey.
But what was the point of them being removed???? If that's the case the LIRR & MNRR cars should have their colors removed too. They are also operated under the MTA.
I think this came about when they started doing the whole-car graffiti removal washes - the blue paint of the stripe was also removed by the wash. At least, about the time they started doing the washes, I would see cars with thinned-out blue stripes and blue drips down the side of the car body. The wash also took the paint off the MTA logos, but they've been changed a couple times since then...
More like gray with rust-colored polka dots.
The LIRR does not really still have the blue stripe, only very few.
MNRR does still have and maintain them (red stripe on the connecticut cars). I prefer the blue stripe and miss it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why don't the MTA plan a route to run along the Chrystie St cut then along the Broadway El to Broadway Junction then along the Canarsie Line down to Canarsie????????
Sounds like a cousin to the old KK route of the late 1960's.
OK.OK,OK What about a route from Washington Heights to Bay Ridge????
One approach here might be to run the B on the Sea Beach line, and bring back the T to run on Broadway and the West End. So it is technically possible. But don't tell anyone, particularly SBFred, that I told you so.
I heard that STG and my antenna is up and out. Don't mess with my Sea Beach. If you want to do something good, fix those express tracks heading to Coney Island, so they run both ways. Then build three startions on the express line, and run the Sea Beach as an express. Then you can take the mediocre West End and run on the Sea beach's local tracks.
OK...let's play.
Let's say that Sea Beach Fred has graciously agreed to provide whatever amount of money it takes to convert three Sea Beach Line stations for express service (no doubt including elevators and/or ramps to make them ADA-compliant). Which ones get converted?
Here are the average weekday ridership statistics for Sea Beach Line stations in 1999 (unfortunately, I don't have 2000 available).
86th Street: 1,241
Avenue U: 1,612
Kings Highway: 2,510
Bay Parkway: 3,294
20th Avenue: 2,743
18th Avenue: 2,697
New Utrecht Avenue: 3,702 (not all of whom are headed for the Sea Beach)
Fort Hamilton Parkway: 3,397
Eighth Avenue: 4,643
By contrast, here are the average (1999) weekday ridership statistics for the Brighton Line's express stations:
Brighton Beach: 9,628
Sheepshead Bay: 11,869
Kings Highway: 15,375
Newkirk Avenue: 8,346
Church Avenue: 14,363
I don't know about anybody else, but I hardly see a mandate here for express service at any of these stations. The weakest Brighton Line express station, Newkirk Avenue, has nearly twice as many riders each weekday as the strongest Sea Beach station, Eighth Avenue, which also happens to be the closest station to where the trains enter/exit the Fourth Avenue trunk line.
David
OK David, you gave good facts and completely F#%^&*@# up my day. I will give that to you. Tell you what. If I hit the lottery, I will donate the money to build the stations, then get my buddy GWB to declare the Sea Beach a national monument. Then there won't be a problem. How's that?
", I will donate the money to build the stations, then get my buddy GWB to declare the Sea Beach a national monument"
THE SLOW BEACH NATIONAL MONUMENT ?
It does have a certain ring to it!
Bill "Newkirk"
Nah, GWB would only want to drill for oil in there ... how much oil is there really in a subway car?
Oh Bill, you are asking for it. Are you taking your cues from Q, Doug, and Bob?
My goodnes! A member of the board actually looks at statistics and conceeds a point!
Sorry Fred, but after all the R68 etc debates, this is refreshing.
John.
Glad I helped make your day. I can't ignore evidence, and no matter what anyone else will tell you, I believe that below my Sea Beach fanaticism lies a fair minded person. Pissed off about the facts, but fair minded.
GWB will not do anything to help the Subway. After all it runs on electricity not gas, and he and Cheneys cronies wont make any money on it.And Brooklyn has always voted for the most part Demo.
The *real* question is which line has more oil deposits. If I remember correctly, Brooklyn had a huge Moboil facility somewhere, betcha there's plenty in the ground where that was. :)
The statistics presented by David resemble, proportionately, those for 1927-28 presented at www.bmt-lines. So things have not changed proportionately over the years, too.
Can GWB spell Sea Beach??????
Hey Piggo, whoever the hell you are, remember this. George W. got better grades in college than did your Al Gore. Gore quit divinity school j ust before he was going to flunk out. Bush has an advanced degree from Yale. So get the facts straight before you start saying something that makes you look totally stupid. Other than that, welcome to Subtalk. I will be friendly from here on in.
DUH LET S ALL DIG FOR OIL WHEREEVER WE CAN. BUSH II LIKE HIS DADDY A ONE TERM PRESIDENT< HE DID NOT EVEN GET A POPULAR VOTE TIME FOR ANOTHER REPUBLICAN RECESSION/
Now that's not fair. We ALL know that the solution to an insufficient number of power transmission lines is to drill for more oil. The solution to an insufficient number of refineries is to drill for more oil and the solution to not enough cross connections in an electrical grid to provide the ability to actually get electrons to where they're needed is to drill for more oil. It's all a matter of diversisosity. :)
Get smart Bob. Clinton left this country in a bad way with the economy shaky. And as far as fuel is concerned, let me get this straight. You don't want to drill for oil, you don't want to use nuclear, you don't want to use coal. What the hell do you want to use for fuel? Solar? That will give us about 10% of what we need, and don;t give me electrical energy because the tree huggers don't want power plants built. They care more for kangaroo rats, spotted owls and darter snails than they do people. People must come first and people need fuel. We want no more of the Carter years.
Possibly. But he cant put it in a paragraph without at least one malapropism and a mixed metaphor or two.
Does he know where it is? Absolutely not!
John.
Could you imagine him and Dan Quyle together
Need I say or see more, and of Course Kings Hwy on the Brighton is the busiest .
A technical point: what do these numbers represent....tokens purchased per day? How many additional passengers, say, could Newkirk Av have if you added the rush hour statistics for Av M, Av J and Av H to the total? In general, are locations for express stations based on entry/exit at an individual location, or based on logistical issues, such as convenience as a transfer point? Or both?
Now while I agree with your statistical analysis showing that ridership on the Sea Beach doesn't warrant investment in express stations, if the city was given "free federal money" to build a few express stops, it would certainly choose New Utrecht as one of them because of the transfer with the West End. My guess the other would be Bay Parkway or Kings Highway, both vibrant commercial areas and nearly equally spaced between New Utrecht and Stillwell. (I think two are enough.)
The numbers represent passengers going through the turnstiles at the listed stations, not fares purchased.
David
Attaboy STG, way to come through for me. You're a pal.
That is probably because riders avoid the Slow Beach line.
Hey! Where did you get those numbers? Are they available to the public systemwide? (If they're not on the web somewhere, would you mind posting the top ten stations in residential areas?)
How does the TA account for transfers? Obviously, it's impossible to get exact numbers since there are no turnstiles between lines, but transfers must be taken into account somehow. For instance, more than 3,702 passengers daily wait for trains at New Utrecht (on the two lines combined) since some (granted, probably not many) enter elsewhere and transfer there.
NYCT publishes a book containing this information. I'm not sure it's public information, but I don't see why it wouldn't be. Write to NYCT at 370 Jay Street and ask for it.
I don't think anyone counts transfers except maybe in a specific case, for a specific reason. Counts are taken of passengers aboard trains by Traffic Checkers standing on platforms at key locations.
David
What company are these trains from? I'm guessing that they are from Breda, although I'm not sure...
the trains are from budd, Boeing-Vertol, Morrison-knudson.
VISIT the Chicago section of THIS website.
Peace,
ANDEE
You might also add to the list of current cars operated the following still on property: 2 by Cincinnati Car Co, 1 by Jackson & Sharpe; 3 by Saint Louis Car Co. on loan from IRM, and 2 by Pullman Standard, owned by IRM and stored for possible sale to a Pullman historic society.
David Harrison
A 5th R-142 train set is on the road today. 6411-20 are back in service carrying passengers on the 2 once again.
6321-25 and 6346-50 are now doing simulated stops on the 2, so chances may be likely this will be the next train in.
It's really time to start getting those redbird pics.
-Stef
Right you are Stef. I was at a meeting today that included a Sr. Vice President of NYCTA. He said that the R-142 brake problem has been satisfactorily solved, and trains will be hitting the rails at the rate of about one per week.
6421-30 was taken off because the chipmunks were messing with the automated announcements but will be back next week.
They were? I thought I saw them on the road a little while ago. About what time was this?
-Stef
6421-6430 was on the road on Monday. As were 6311-20(6316-6320 still have the Mets/Yankees logo), and 6326-35. The train that was probably taken out of service was 6301-10. I did not see that train on Monday while working at Utica.
NY1 Storyabout closing token booths.
Peace,
ANDEE
At least it is only the part-time booths that are closing, sounds like at least one 24-hour booth will remain in operation at every station, unless I have misread this article. Granted this may hamper safety a little bit since there would be a longer walk to a 24-hour booth in some locations, but this can be resolved as the MTA continues to improve lighting in the stations, as well as where the MTA puts their trnasit cops too. -Nick
I know,for one thing, that the MVMs have INCREASED the hours able to enter the system by 200% since their implementation, at my station anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
what are MVM's? -Nick
Metrocard
Vending
Machines
David
The south entracne at Sheepshead bay is part time even with HEET's. The booth has a person in the morning then it is HEET entrance only but they lock up the HEET's at 9 or 10pm.
Is this what the TA is going to do to the other Part Time entrances as well?
It is a hell of walk from that entrance to the main one if you have a problem with the card.
It is a hell of walk from that entrance to the main one if you have a problem with the card.
But how often does this happen to somebody who treats their card responsibly? It makes no sense to staff a booth for the occassional times that a person has a card problem.
One little scratch on your card or a bad turnstile reader will do it to you. IU can see it now ... mugger pours sugar in the reader of the iron maden and waits for his pray.
Mr t__:^)
I've used cards scratched beyond recognition, yet they've still worked. They're more durable than all of these people think. The community board in Brighton Beach or someplace nearby had a meeting in which there was unanimous support AGAINST the TA's plan. I'm not surprised, it just shows that town hall government doesn't work, most people don't give a rat's ass and wouldn't bother to come. Most people have better things to do.
I would believe Thruston Mr. Pig, he knows a little about MetroCards then most.
It is not just a problem with the card, what happens if you just want one raid and have a $20 bill?
Not eveyone wants those dollar coins (if so we would get rid of the dolalr bill like Canada) and wand 3 of them from a change of a $5.
I'm sorry, but in HEET's but DON'T close the entrance then.
It is not just a problem with the card, what happens if you just want one raid and have a $20 bill?
Why is it that everybody thinks that for every small eventuality, a person has to be hired? The MTA is not in the business of catering to a small group with unique needs. Those with problems can walk to the main entrance, there are few enough of those.
Not eveyone wants those dollar coins (if so we would get rid of the dolalr bill like Canada)
People didn't want Dollar coins in Canada either. Except that there the government had the balls to discontinue the one Dollar bill immediately and create a two Dollar bill to force people to change over.
By now they've changed the two Dollar bill into a coin too. At some point, they'll have five Dollar coins, and we'll still have a one dollar bill, that the government will try to replace with a holographic Rosa Parks Dollar coin, because they don't have the guts to stand up to the stubborn sheep.
When you start printing money, you can decide what format each denomination of currency shall have.
I'm sorry, but in HEET's but DON'T close the entrance then.
I assume you mean put in HEETs.
The entrance is not being closed. As SUBWAYSURF has pointed out, HEETs and MVMs have not closed entrances, they have made them open longer and made it more convenient for more people. The current plan conveniences more people than it inconveniences.
Except that there the government had the balls to discontinue the one Dollar bill immediately and create a two Dollar bill to force people to change over.
Actually, the two dollar bill in Canada was around for a hundred years or so before the dollar bill was discontinued - and it was never unpopular there like the two dollar bill in the US.
Canada had planned to discontinue the five dollar bill this year and replace it with a coin but the plan was scrapped last summer, just before the new coin was to go into production. I'm not sure of the reason, if it has merely been put on hold for a year, or if it's on a kind of permanent hold.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For that matter, tweaking the MVMs to give more than $6 change would be much cheaper than keeping the part-time token booths. And the machines also take credit and debit cards.
The token booth (sorry, MetroCard booth) will always be a short walk away for those few who need it. The rest of us can save time by using an entrance that's open for more than the limited hours it was open previously.
[I've used cards scratched beyond recognition, yet they've still worked. They're more durable than all of these people think ....]
Bend it just once & see what happens. Try scratching liquidated cards in various places. You discover the area where one little scratch renders the card usless (sometimes the Token Booth Clerk can read enough of the data on the card to exchange it for a new one, BUT if the booth is closed ... time for a walk).
You've seen me post here enough to know I believe in SERVICE more then automation, especially where it involves removing the Token Booth Clerk, or train Engineer & Conductor. Why, because the TA just adds more folks to their back rooms ... crime rises ... less folks use the system ... fares go up ... maintenance gets differed ... etc.
Mr t__:^)
Crime does not rise. The station agent is not a deterrent to crime.
There are fewer people added back office, so the MTA saves money.
I also believe in service, I want cleaner trains and stations and more frequent trains with less crowding. THAT is service, not some do-nothing booth monkey.
[I also believe in service, I want cleaner trains and stations and more frequent trains with less crowding. THAT is service, not some do-nothing booth monkey.]
The TA has said that their goal is to bring their Station Agents out of the booth to provide new forms of SERVICE to customers. This may mean that the agent will have to be sent to charm school to learn how to better interact with the public ... that's a management problem.
But if the agent is GONE, there goes any hope of customer service. And I don't agree with your premise that a person in a booth doesn't deter crime any more then a TV camera (a bad guy can arrive with a spray can & blind the camera ... how long do you think it will take the folks back in their nice comfortable office to react to that ?) ... but then I feel sometimes you just say things to be contrary.
Mr t__:^)
But if the agent is GONE, there goes any hope of customer service.
They're not talking about eliminating the agent, they're just talking about eliminating the second/third one. Without sales, and with a "roving" agent, there is no need for more than one.
And I don't agree with your premise that a person in a booth doesn't deter crime any more then a TV camera (a bad guy can arrive with a spray can & blind the camera ... how long do you think it will take the folks back in their nice comfortable office to react to that ?) ...
Somebody can spraypaint the booth too. Make cameras high and far away and the problem is solved.
but then I feel sometimes you just say things to be contrary.
Only because my beliefs aren't the same as yours. We've proven quite often that I do not agree with the majority of Subtalkers on a number of issues. If you don't like that, then tough. I'm not going to change my mind just to satisfy people.
[We've proven quite often that I do not agree with the majority of Subtalkers on a number of issues. If you don't like that, then tough. I'm not going to change my mind just to satisfy people.]
I at least am willing to listen to the other persons point of view before giving my opinion. "... then tough ..." says to me that you are absolutely positive that your view is correct, so why bother yourself having exchanges with us if there is nothing that you're going to get out of it except mad at all these railfans that don't know what they are talking about ?
Final point, you better watch out for maturity, it's lible to change your view of the World. I'm a sixties kind of guy that burned his leasure suit & threw away the beads & water pipe.
Mr t__:^)
American Pig is a freaking pain in the ass. If there is anything that he disagrees with he will put you down like nobody's business. He thinks that he is right about EVERYTHING!! He is going to find himself disliked by everyone if he doesn't get with it and live in the real world. The real world isn't very nice at times.
BMTJeff
My contradictory messages add a lot more to a discussion than "Yes, that is correct, I agree."
[My contradictory messages add a lot more to a discussion ...]
ONLY if they are thoughtful remarks.
When you use a shot gun in a hunting party, all you get is your friends running the other way. And who wants to eat a turkey full of all those little balls.
Mr t__:^)
When you use a shot gun in a hunting party, all you get is your friends running the other way.
Umm, how do you hunt then?
Either by yourself or with a rifle... trust me, I know :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So is he using a distinct definition of shotgun vs. rifle that I don't know of?
Got you thinking for a minute before you replied ... there is hope for you my friend !
Mr t__:^)
What the hell is that supposed to mean? It doesn't take much thought to figure out the stupidity in your little analogy.
What is the difference between a rifle and a shotgun.
The biggest difference is range. Close up you don't have to be to accurate with a shotgun. What misses won't be as much of a danger to people and other things down range. A rifle usually is a single slug, can be more accurate near and far and carries its leathalness for a greater distance. A fire arms require sense and forethought before being discharged. Use salt instead of those little balls and the bird will self season!
avid
A rifle has a "rifled" barrel (spiral grooves cut into the barrel), which puts a spin on the bullet, significantly increasing accuracy and range (my hunting rifle has a range of over two miles, although accuracy falls off significantly after 1000 yards). In contrast, a shotgun fires pellets, in a pattern that varies based on the type of load in the shell (I'm no expert on the subject so I can't tell you what makes the difference). The maximum range of any shot load I've ever fired is about 300 yards (just an estimate). Shotguns can also fire rifled slugs, which have grooves in the slug itself; they are used primarily for deer hunting in areas which don't permit the use of rifles (such as most of New York State). Not sure what the range is - I've only been hunting with one once, and I was less than 25 yards away from the deer when I fired (dumb luck - Mr. Bambi must have had real bad cataracts and a lousy sense of smell, he walked right across my path).
I haven't hunted in over 20 years now, but I did enjoy it when I was younger, mostly because I went with my grandfather.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's only stupid if you don't want to take the time to think about it, i.e. too quick to fire back with an even stupider reply.
I think I'll just let this end now because it's going nowhere ... the whole point was that thoughtful remarks form the basis for a debate. A debate can be quite interesting & informative, IF you are willing to think about what the other person has said & reply with your point of view vs. nitpicking at what he/she has said & otherwise just throwing rocks & mud.
I for one have learned a lot here because I've been willing to listen.
I've also made quite a few now close friends here from amoung the 60 or so SubTalkers that I've had the pleasure of meeting at various events. Where better to talk to & meet folks with similar interests ?
If you find us as a group so boring & stupid, then GO AWAY !!!!!
Mr t__:^)
I've been here earlier than you and I'm not going anywhere.
I was responding to the obviously condescending tone in your post. I don't need condescension from someone who can't take it that there are differing opinions out there.
This isn't a thread about facts, nobody can be right.
YOUR problem is that somebody has a different opinion than you do (gasp!) and is willing to express it. I'm not going to stop just because the majority opinion is contrary to mine.
Minority opinions are always decried by the masses, and those who hold the views are ridiculed, yet in the end they are correct.
I'm not saying I'm correct, I'm merely providing a justification for a contrarian view, something that many people FEAR.
Final point, you better watch out for maturity
It's not called maturity, it's called growing old.
it's lible to change your view of the World.
You think I'm not worried about that?
I'm a sixties kind of guy that burned his leasure suit & threw away the beads & water pipe.
That doesn't mean you matured. It means you sold out a good worldview. I absolutely despise the people who were radical in the 60s, but then completely became conservative (and not just fiscal and economic conservative, which is good, but moral conservative, which is HORRIFIC). Moral conservatism is a plague that must be squashed like a bug. I can't put in words my hatred for moral conservatives and the religous wrong.
[... That doesn't mean you matured. It means you sold out a good worldview. I absolutely despise the people who were radical in the 60s, but then completely became conservative ...]
Well, I was never more then a week-end hippy that went to The Village on Saturday nights (didn't go to Woodstock, etc.). I have some friends who had the kinds of views you are alluding to. The story I love to tell is that they have abandonded all those beliefs, bought a house in Floral Park & the only item left from the 60s in their life is white tollet paper (colored pollutes).
Mr t__:^)
Some of us moved upstate and formed autonomous collectives. Alas, we traded in our school busses with "Free Huey, Duey and Louie" sprayed on them for R9's. :)
>>Make cameras high and far away and the problem is solved.<<
Don't forget hidden too. A hidden camera is an excellent deterrent.
>>> A hidden camera is an excellent deterrent. <<<
You mean like the "Doomsday Machine" in "Dr. Strangelove"? :-)
Tom
Exactly.
Having station entrances open longer hours (because the turnstiles that are closed whenever the token booth is closed will be replaced with HEETs that can remain open at all times) is improved service.
On paper it looks like it would, but I don't think that's a certainty. We'll have to see if traffic goes up or down thru that entrance.
Mr t__:^)
We'll have to see if traffic goes up or down thru that entrance.
If the babies haven't learned to do things by themselves, then fine. I won't have to wait in line to get in.
Can these people wipe themselves?
No complaints here.
The TA should install phones in the unstaffed entrances so that people can get help when something goes wrong or ask how to get to the Bronx Zoo.
PATH is 100% unattended. I got a bit nervous when a turnstile ate my card (that's fine, since it only had $1.50 left before I inserted it and PATH eats empty cards) and then the turnstile jammed (that's not fine whatsoever). Somewhat peeved, I picked up the phone and informed the guy at the other end what happened. He told me to use the wheelchair entrance. Problem solved.
If whoever answers the phone has the ability to unlock a HEET, that should take care of most potential problems.
Is it safe to assume that many or most part-time booths will be replaced with full-time HEETs? That's a net benefit to anyone who ever travels off-peak.
I don't think that it is a wise idea to close token booths for the very reason if you have a problem with your MetroCard or somebody is in trouble and most importantly for safety. That human presence can make a difference in feeling safe at a subway station or not feeling safe at that station at all.
BMTJeff
If they truly cared about safety, they wouldn't keep the clerks, they'd replace them with COPS. Cops can provide safety, clerks will do jack shit once they won't be selling anything.
Oh, thanks for the vote of confidence, pal. For your information, when there's an emrgency we call for police. What do you suggest we do? Should we throw ourselves in front of the culprit trying to commit a crime? Then our lives would be in danger.
I have an idea: Since clerks don't do jack shit as you have just explained, why not put a cop in every station. Geez, you think someone in MTA headquaters would be willing to pay all that money to the NYPD when they could pay peanuts to the clerks?
-Stef
For your information, when there's an emrgency we call for police.
What's the point of hiring TWO people to sit in a station, being unable to see most of it without cameras, just to push a button?
A cop at every station would be a good idea. A cop's presence would be an excellent deterrent to criminal activity.
BMTJeff
A cop at every station would be a good idea. A cop's presence would be an excellent deterrent to criminal activity.
What is criminal activity?
Pickpocketing, panhandling, muggings etc.
BMTJeff
Police presence is provided by the Transit Bureau of the New York Police Department, not NYC Transit. Write to Commissioner Kerik and suggest an officer in every station at all times. By the way, who's going to patrol the rest of the city?
David
A cop at every station would be a good idea. A cop's presence would be an excellent deterrent to criminal activity.
Many years ago - back when El Caudillo, Francisco Franco, was in power - I lived in Barcelona, Spain for a year as an exchange student. Police, in the form of the feared Guardia Civil, were on almost every streetcorner. It was the safest place I have ever lived, but it was also the place where I felt the most afraid - afraid for myself, afraid for my friends, afraid for the family with whom I lived, afraid for everyone, because the police were monitoring people's every move. In Spain I was safe, but I was not free. Benjamin Franklin put it best back in 1759 when he said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." I could not agree more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Too much of a police presence can also be a problem as well. However you can't give criminals the opportunity to keep commiting crimes. As long as the is enough of a police presence criminal activity is discouraged. A well lit subway station can also discourage criminal activity because criminal generally don't want to be seen. Good lighting can be as much as a deterrent as a police officer.
BMTJeff
Good lighting can be as much as a deterrent as a police officer.
That I absolutely agree with. And I'm certainly not saying that police should not patrol - but a constant police presence is the hallmark of a totalitarian rgime, not of a free country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're correct. There will be many instances where you want to station a police officer. If there have been too many crimes at a certain subway station it will probably be necessary to station a police officer at the specific station so that people feel safer. In most other cases good lighting may be sufficent. However there should be times when a police officer should patrol any station at random even if the has been little or no criminal actiaity at that station just to make sure that there are still people around who will be enforcing the law. Just because there is no crime at a particular location doesn't mean you should let down your guard. Given a chance a criminal will try to cause trouble even in the most crime free neighborhood.
BMTJeff
I believe the current routine is for the police in the system is to walk a station, wait for the next train, go to the next station, etc.
Mr t__:^)
That seems to make sense to go from one station to the next.
BMTJeff
With the current GO in effect, if someone tries that routine at 10am at Eastern Parkway on the J, he won't reach Broad Street until around 3pm. (What GO? Due to single-tracking on the bridge, the J is running at 24-minute headways. Waiting time alone adds up to over 4.5 hours.) The situation is even worse in the reverse, since the J makes all stops in that direction.
Benjamin Franklin put it best back in 1759 when he said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." I could not agree more.
That's the famous quote I've used more than any other (remember my debates with John/Qtraindash7?) on this board.
>>> That human presence can make a difference in feeling safe at a subway station or not feeling safe at that station at all. <<<
You are right! I feel the same way about elevators. But I doubt that the manned elevator is ever going to make a comeback. Probably the early subway riders appreciated a C/R in every car. The "feeling of safety" which comes from more transit employees is not going to win out over the cost savings of eliminating the position.
Tom
#1) Is the SS broad guage or standard.
#2) What is up with the route 10? The tracks at the 36th St. portal are all rusty.
(2)#2) What is up with the route 10? The tracks at the 36th St. portal are all rusty?septa always have bad tracks.
1) The SS runs on broad gauge track, like the MFL.
1) Broad guage
2) lack of use will make the rails rusty. Brand new rails will look rusty.
I suspect that route 10 service has been suspended. Can anyody tell me why?
http://www.septa.com/schedule.cgi?route=10&day=1
They are replacing the rail and trackbed on Lancaster from 36th - 38th. They have finished most of it - they're just working on the curve & turnaround at 36th & Lancaster now. It looks like they are replacing the curves and crossover, but keeping the old switches for the turnaround "Y" there.
The 10 is still in rail service from 40th St west until mid-June when the entire line goes bus.
Is the track going to be replaced on Lancaster Avenue beginning in mid-June. I thought it already was. Weren't buses substituted on 10 in 1995 for track work (allowing the Kawasaki LRVs to run on Girard Avenue)?
Track will be replaced west of 44th St/Belmont Ave (to I believe 48th St) in the current project. In '95 a sewer project between 48th St and 52nd St kept the cars off. Right now track between 36th St and 38th St, including the stub-end east of 36th used for wyeing cars in emergencies, is being replaced. Track between 38th St and Belmont Ave was renewed in conjunction with a roadway repaving project in '84. In '86 Lansdowne Ave was renewed from end to end, employing car service detoured via Girard Ave and 63rd St, with a bus shuttle providing local service.
I believe track work on the Girard Ave project will affect the Lancaster/Girard intersection this summer also, which is within the limits noted above.
Finally! The biker advocates have gotten their wishes (and I, being a biker advocate myself after trains must say this is a step in the right direction).
Effective today:
Bicycle capacity will rise from two bicycles per train to two bicycles in each rail car on weekdays at all times except peak hours.
Weekend capacity increases from four bicycles per train to four per rail car on weekends and holidays.
Bicycles are permitted on Metrorail all day except peak hours between 7 a.m. and 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. and 7 p.m.
Bicycles will be allowed all day on most weekends and holidays.
Bicycles are not permitted on Metrorail on July 4th and other special events or holidays when large crowds use the system.
For the safety, comfort, and convenience of its passengers, Metro reminds everyone to follow these guidelines whenever bringing a bicycle into the Metrorail system:
Only regular bicycles are permitted (maximum size 80" long, 48" high and 22" wide). No tricycles or training wheels are allowed.
Use the elevator at all times. Do not take bicycles on escalators. Avoid blocking doorways and aisles. Yield to other customers.
Do not ride bicycles in stations, on platforms or trains. Keep both wheels on the ground and the kickstand up. Maintain control of the bicycle.
If you are under 16 years of age, you must be accompanied by an adult.
Finally, something like SEPTA (except we can do midday). This is for a 6 month trial period.
Only change I would make, change the wording to imply WMATA would like the bikers in the rear car.
WMATA's bike policy reminds me of the Orange County Transit Authority, which not only offers bike racks but also allows surfboards (6 max per bus)!
-----
Three questions:
1. Do bikers need special permits, or do they just enter and ride (within the stated guidelines)?
2. How is the bike policy enforced? What's the penalty for violating it?
3. Have there been any dwell time problems, with bikers going from car to car to avoid the limit?
Three questions:
1. Do bikers need special permits, or do they just enter and ride (within the stated guidelines)?
Not anymore. For almost 2 years, bikers just get on and ride.
2. How is the bike policy enforced? What's the penalty for violating it?
Transit police. I don't know the penalty but I have seen many people get away with violating it.
3. Have there been any dwell time problems, with bikers going from car to car to avoid the limit?
No although the limits were a pain. Since you also couldn't take your bike down the center aisle (and probably still can't), one theoretically has to get off at the next station if there are too many bikes at one end of the car and wait for the next train.
The only time I've been held up due to people on bikes was one time a couple of weeks ago when a few teenagers were waiting for the Red Line at White Flint at the front end of the platform. As the train pulled in, the operator jumped out of her seat and opened up the window as the train was coming to a stop and yelled at them to take the bikes to the back car. They went flying down there, nearly running over everyone waiting to board as well as almost plowing into one guy coming off the train. So, we had to wait a few seconds for that to clear out. I've noticed on trains recently, that there are stickers on the windows of doors in the middle of the cars that no bikes are allowed through there.
I saw those this morning for the first time.
Well, the other shoe finally dropped today. The LIRR is leasing at least 2 F-40 units from (sl)Amtrak. I guess they'll be showing up shortly, don't know if they'll get a repaint. Supposedly, they've got 4 on lease. This is to allow Sooper Steel to, uh, modify, yeah that's it, modify the DE/DMs. Which I think really means "rebuild", meaning that the LIRR has probbably set a new world record for shortest first life of a locomotive.
Anyway, I'm guessing more will be on the way if the rebuild program doesn't turn out a decent locomotive.
Anyone wanna place bets on when the DE/DMs get scrapped? No cheating - I know 3 were "written off" already.
What? Unheard of! F40's on the LIRR is a must see.....
Are the DE and DM Units that bad?
-Stef
Thank your lucky stars that it isn't R-40s......
Peace,
ANDEE
Phil & anyone else, please alert us as to when the F-40's go into LIRR service. Since I live in the non-electrified portion of the system, I'll keep a camera ready if I see one.
Hey don't kid yourself. Perhaps leasing subway cars to the LIRR wouldn't be a bad idea. Heh..... We can demotor the cars and turn them into coaches.
-Stef
Nah, they'd never go for that ... it's very hard to put your feet up on the seats on subway cars. :)
Maybe the redbirds... they'd fit right in with the aging LIRR equip!
Uhm... yes, the DE/DM's are just that bad.
They came in 300,000lbs over the weight the contract specified (if I recall the numbers correct), 2 or 3 have caught fire (I hear 3 have been pretty much written off), and they can barely haul 6 cars.
Currently, I believe only 8 are in service, with the rest laid up collecting dust. the DE's were suppose to be used to expand through service from diesel zones into penn station, but with the fires (and the notorously bad conditions, emergancy exit wise, from the east river tubes), that hasn't happened.
Many speculate that like amtrak's failed SDP40F's, they'll be making their way to a scrap yard reading their 5th birthdays...
of course, them old gp's they had are still running. and how old are them FL9's on metro north? guess they just don't build them quite like they used to...
Uhm... yes, the DE/DM's are just that bad.
They came in 300,000lbs over the weight the contract specified (if I recall the numbers correct), 2 or 3 have caught fire (I hear 3 have been pretty much written off), and they can barely haul 6 cars.
Currently, I believe only 8 are in service, with the rest laid up collecting dust. the DE's were suppose to be used to expand through service from diesel zones into penn station, but with the fires (and the notorously bad conditions, emergancy exit wise, from the east river tubes), that hasn't happened.
Many speculate that like amtrak's failed SDP40F's, they'll be making their way to a scrap yard before their 5th birthdays...
of course, them old gp's they had are still running. and how old are them FL9's on metro north? guess they just don't build them quite like they used to...
Why oh why did LIRR not get the Genesis locomotives like Metro Noth??
A)silly law that they be build in NY state.
B)they wanted something that would run just like an MU - apparently a genesis takes a minute longer (gasp) to get though the east river tubes, and they thought a DE could do the job...
By the same logic that's why MTA is stuck with all those Orion buses (they were also made in NY)
<< how old are them FL9's on metro north? >>
Keep in mind that all of these are on their second or third rebuild.
I'd like to be at Jamaica station when one of those F40's rolls through and watch the station canopies get demolished.
They simply won't fit.
That is one rumor I just don't believe. Since onlt 8 of the 20 remaining dual-modes are required for service on any given weekday, they have plenty of locomotives to spare for cycling to Super Steel for retrofit. Had the moronic MTA management and board demanded LIRR buy Genesis like their sister railroad and Amtrak, we would not be in ths predicament. After Holban-Hillside, and now this, the LIRR cannot be allowed to make capital plans on their own.
Had the moronic MTA management and board demanded LIRR buy Genesis like their sister railroad and Amtrak, we would not be in ths predicament. After Holban-Hillside, and now this, the LIRR cannot be allowed to make capital plans on their own.
What was the problem with Hillside? Excess costs?
I guess you missed it. You bet excess costs, design flaws, and mistakes while building (i.e. pouring concrete around rails set at the wrong gauge, paint shop that could never be used, etc.). I don't remember the numbers and all the glitches. It was all over Newsday for months, people got fired, contractors got fired, quite a scandel,some should have gone to jail.
Because of that:
1) Hunterspoint Avenue rebuilding was shelved. It was to be a north side platform with a stairway directly ito the subway mezzanine, as well as rebuilding the current platform. New scissor crossovers to be east of the station shelved. I believe either the points or the frog are still there from partial construction.
2) Flatbush Avenue rebuild shelved,
3) Jamaica interlocking rebuild shelved,
4) UMTA Capital funding cut off for 25 months due to poor project management.
With money to waste, and no one to account to, things like this happen. Accountablity should be the order of the day, with stiff penalties for wrongdoing, which in reality is theft of taxpayers money.
Correct. Which is why I hold the MTA management and board accountable for tolerating this beahvior over time. Of course, the supposedly customer-oriented PCAC seems mute on the subject as well.
It's not a rumour. I got the report off East Rail News two days ago, but I just never got around to posting it. Amtrak is dispatching one unit from Albany and another from DC. They need to be fixed up a bit before entering service.
Heh. I know the one that's coming from Albany ... good luck, Long Island ... wonder if any of the LIRR (former NYCTA) R1's are still out there in Jamaica? :)
Didn't the LIRR just get new diesel units a few years ago?
Ummmm ... yeah ... those guys I was talking about built 'em. 'nuff said. :)
OK, call me stupid, but I have a few questions:
(a) WHY ON EARTH will they buy 23 locomotives for 8 diagrams?
(b) If the dual-mode locos are based on the F-59, i.e. an EMD product, how come they've made a bit of a goof up this time?
Lexcie
>a) WHY ON EARTH will they buy 23 locomotives for 8 diagrams?
Because the LIRR is stupid, and wants to avoid electrifying Port Jeff and out to Patchauge. That's it. There's no reason for diesel ops on LI. what little parts of the system are diesel should haave either been electrified, or replaced with DMUs years ago.
>b) If the dual-mode locos are based on the F-59, i.e. an EMD product, how
>come they've made a bit of a goof up this time?
They're a ground up, new design
No reason for diesel opts? Easy to say in the spring, but what happens when a major snow storm rolls into town? the 3rd rail is buried, and people are stranded left and right...
I'd go with dmu's or diesels... they look better anyways. (ah, but that's just my opinion...)
-Joe
Not stupid at all ... first off, look to our "leadership" ... explains it all. I can't answer "a)" but I can tell you about "b)" ... S00perSteel is a division of EMD with one kinky little difference. They slapped together a manufacturing plant in Glenville, NY (just outside of Schenectady where GE and Alco once built locomotives but haven't in nearly 50 years now) and hired the local pickup truck folks who might have at one time built turbines for GE, more likely farm equipment. Locomotives, definitely NOT.
This "manufacturing plant" was tossed up a few years ago as a result of contract requirements that they MUST be "Made in New York" rather than at a factory somewhere else that has people experienced in making locomotives. So here you have people who got together with the premise "hey kids, let's build trains" ... not to say that most of the folks are drunken yahoos from upstate (I know some folks who work there and *I* wouldn't hire them to sweep a sidewalk, but that's me) but let's just say many of them wouldn't know a brake shoe from a Florsheim. This group is also rebuilding those "Turboliners" for the Empire Corridor service, so this saga looks to be the gift that will keep on giving. But GM built the plant as required, my guess is perhaps to prove a point to the politicos that demanded that it be in New York.
Sorry for the harshness of all I'm saying here, but like I said, I've seen the plant in action and know some of the folks that are working there. Whew ...
I think LIRR leasing F-40's is kool. Because of this i will be watching for them. Also, the DE30's are from the F59. I know F59 is not their real name, but I call it them. I hate the name DE30 because its dumb and it sounds too simple. F-59 sounds more technical.
My favorite is 400 for the F-59 and for the DM F-59 is 503
There's one major problem with your statements....
F59's are RELIABLE, DE/DM30's are NOT.
< OK, call me stupid, but I have a few questions:
(a) WHY ON EARTH will they buy 23 locomotives for 8 diagrams?
(b) If the dual-mode locos are based on the F-59, i.e. an EMD product, how come they've made a bit of a goof up this time? >
We won't call you stupid if you simply don't know something. (This isn't nyc.transit and John Doe/Marc Kortlander isn't here).
It's for only FOUR trainsets (2 Port Jeff, 1 Oyster Bay, 1 South Shore). Amtrak requires 2 engines (1 at each end) for ANYTHING to Penn Station to prevent 3rd rail gapping, and anything over 6 cars requires 2 of these behmoths anyway, dual-mode or otherwise.
They got 23 of these things because they envisioned more dual-mode consists. Because of the unreliability and the fires, this is it for now. Of course the LIRR lied between their teeth about this being a substitute for electrification because they never planned to use them to thru-route Huntington MU's with Port Jeff shuttles off-peak, likewise on the South Shore.
Read some other more technical threads here about the F59 question. In summary, they are more custom-built than they are F59. They are also 30,000 lbs overweight/overspec, are 3,000 HP, yet cannot pull over 6 cars. I can't understand that one, perhaps the center of gravity is too high.
Three things should happen:
1) Fire the entire LIRR capital planning department immediately and abolish it,
2) Electrify to Port Jeff,
3) Lease 40 Amtrak F40's, and rebuild 20 of them for service to Greenport, Ouster Bay, and the South Shore. They are still used as booster units on transcons, they can handle this. Metro-North and VRE has done this with great success.
Austin Corbin must be spinning in his grave !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Explain.
Austin Corbin was the President of the LIRR over a hundred years ago, we're talking late 1800's here. He's spinning in his grave at the current LIRRs penchant for equipment that needs to be corrected.
Bill "Newkirk"
All right! But won't there be a bit of an electrical compatibility problem? IIRC the whole thing that kept the LIRR from keeping the FL-9s and CIs in a mix with the rest of the pool was something to that effect.
Maybe the'll have to borrow a few NJT or Metro North cars. Hopefully the former, I'd like some reversible seats on the LIRR for a change.
Those FL9's were modified for the Bitanic coaches, as were the 3 specially assigned GP38's before them, and the 2 METRA(C&NW) E8's before prededing them (circa 1991).
Whatever needs to be done to the F40's can and will be done. I just don't see how they will fit under the Jamaica station canopies. The GP38's wouldn't fit without a minor modification. This would be a MAJOR modification for the F40.
Of course, the LIRR may not have thought of it yet. 1975 was a long time ago, and there isn't much institutional memory in the Sutphin Blvd Taj Majal.
Joe, I guess you and I are the only ones thinking logically about this RUMOR. F40's will simply NOT fit under the Jamaica canopies....and I see you, too, remember how the GP38-2's had to have their filter box top corners angled to make the fit.
In order to make an F40 fit through Jamaica, they either have to remove two feet off each canopy edge......or lower the F40 about 12 inches. The part that was chopped on the GP38-2's would be a couple feet into the slanted portions on F40 profiles.
This is just a RUMOR....I don't care what anyone says. Last year the rumor was -- and it was being propounded by LIRR engineers in other Internet LIRR "news" sources -- that they were going to lease a bunch of GP60's!!!!
They wouldn't fit either....and what the hell would provide the Head-End-Power besides??
Just because the F40's won't fit at Jamaica doesn't preclude the LIRR from using them. There's always the Greenport Scoot and the feared Oyster Bay - Mineola shuttle.
CG
Using current schedules, the Greenport scoot would keep 2 of them busy on summer Fridays, 1 the rest of the time. The Oyster Bay shuttle is very occasional, and cycles with thru trains. There is a Port Jeff train in the morning that bypasses Jamaica to Hunterspoint Avenue, BUT it goes thru track 5, and does make Jamaica eastbound on whatever schedule it is on.
They do have the butchered FA power pack 3100 that was converted to a 480v AC HEP car for the bitanic when it had GP38's, then converted back to be a conventional 650v DC power pack. I suppose it could go back to 480, and it with a GP38 leased from NY&A, would sub for one DE or DM. But that has nothing to do with what they will do with F40's, unless one goes to the NY&A.
I was thinking that we may see a change to the schedules to accomodate more diesel transfers further east if they go to F40's. I'd guess that we'd see more Oyster Bay - Mineola shuttles for the summer months -- when peak commuting is lightest. Once summer ends, they'd shift the F40's to Babylon - Montauk runs.
CG
While I don't much buy into the rumor, it truely would not surprise me if the dim-wit suits that run the LIRR did lease them...
rumor mill is that 2 are at selkirk waiting to come down the river, and 2 more are on the way up from DC...
I'll believe it when I see them.
I don't know the engine number, but there's one that BURNED somewhere out west that's been sitting in the Rensselaer shops for several months now ... I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's one of the proposed for duty down south.
WARNING! This information is based on rumor and is not documented as fact in any MTA manual - flame at will
HAHA! - it would fit right in!
The irony ... is overwhelming, eh? The original "report" indicated that they might be "fixer-uppers" and this one DEFINITELY qualifies for that category. :)
Is the problem being F40's being too big or Jamacia being too small? I say this because F40's are not very large. Compare them to a P42 or an F59.
GP60's might have been better, you're talking 3800hp there.
Jamaica was built to accomodate K4's, G5's, DD1's, and MP54's.
Everything after else was luck, including the RDC's, MP70 double-deckers and the current bi-levels.
An F59 is an updated F40. It won't fit either, nor will an GP60. The modification made to the GP38 was made a standard retrofit from then on in the EMD catalog.
P42's would designed to fit into the river tunnels, Penn Sation and GCT, but the LIRR assholes didn't want GE's. They wanted EMD's because they loved GP38's, and becuase GE's were stereotyped as slow-loaders, not that these DE/DM's can pull over 6 cars, or have allowed schedules to be tightened.
what is the maxinum speed allowed in any part of the subway?
There are many locations throughout the subway system (all three divisions) where there are no speed restrictions, either by signals or by rule. However, the (pre-AC propulsion) equipment has been modified and is no longer capable of running at speeds very much in excess of 45 MPH, except on downgrades. The newest equipment is designed to run no faster than 45 MPH on level track, although it may be able to do a bit better on downgrades and is better able to maintain speed on upgrades than the older cars, with their non-computerized propulsion systems.
David
I've heard the R hits 50 in the 60th St tunnel, the A/C hits 51 southbound in the Cranberry, and the N hits 62 in the 60th.
An R142, as fast as they fly through 50 street, you would think that they were doing about 70mph. Man those things are fast!
That's good to know. So the R142 will officially be slower than the Redbirds on the 2, which regularly exceed 45 on more than one occasion.
Oh, I forgot. New = good.
How fast could the r10's go. Why were they so much faster then the present cars?
The balancing speed of post-World War II subway cars, starting with the R-10 (BMT/IND, mostly IND) and R-12 (IRT), was 50-55 MPH on level track. The R-44 and R-46 cars were built to travel at a maximum speed of 70 MPH, but they were intended to go that fast only on lines that had Automatic Train Operation (none of which had it when the cars were built, and none of which have it now). With standard subway signals, the cars would go 50-55, just like the rest of the fleet. The last NYC subway cars designed for 50 MPH operation were the R-110s.
The signal system is designed to allow sufficient distance for a train to stop in an emergency without danger of hitting the train in front of it. However, in the 1990s (after the R-10s had been retired in 1989) a series of accidents occurred in the subway system that showed that, under certain conditions, a train that had its automatic brakes activated by a trip arm after passing a red signal, might not stop before hitting a train stopped in front of it. To prevent this from happening in the future, something called full field shunting, which allowed trains to reach their maximum design speed, was removed. What full field shunting is and how it works has been explained on this board several times; a search of the archives under "field shunting" should provide several illuminating posts (pay careful attention to those by "Jeff H." and "Train Dude" -- Jeff's an engineer (the scientific kind) and TD works in one of the maintenance shops). Modifications have been made to the signal system as well. Unfortunately, side effects of the removal of full field shunting are (a) not only has the top speed been reduced, it takes longer to get to that new (lower) top speed, and (b) the cars cannot go very fast at all on upgrades.
David
You state that the r10's were retired in 1989. I rode them as late as the summer of 1991 on the c line.
The last of the R-10s were retired in 1989. That is a verifiable fact. In 1991 the oldest cars on the C were R-30s, which were about two years away from retirement. The R-30s (by that time) were red; the R-10s (by 1989) were green.
David
The train I rode on was green. The month was july 1991. There was no A train service that afternoon due to track work. The c was going from Rockaway Park to manhattan. It was a very hot day. I am postive it was a r10.
"The train I rode on was green. The month was july 1991. There was no A train service that afternoon due to track work. The c was going from Rockaway Park to manhattan. It was a very hot day. I am postive it was a r10."
PAGING WILLIAM PADRON !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry, "michael"...the last ever operated run of the R-10's to carry any passengers (including yours truly) was on the E.R.A. chartered farewell fantrip of Sunday, October 29, 1989, covering many BMT and IND Division routes. It was an almost ten hour excursion with the use of cars #3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216, and the lines the train operated included the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, the Archer Avenue routes (both levels) and the 63rd Street Extension line.
My last personal regular revenue trip on the R-10's was on Friday, September 1, 1989 on the IND "C" line in Manhattan. The cars themselves would be declared officially withdrawn from the car assignment sheets about one month later, with perhaps only two or three "sightings" of them seen by other railfans before their total removal. During 1990, the remaining R-10's would be sent off to the scrap line, and today only cars #3184 (restored at Coney Island Yard) and #3189 (at Pitkin Yard as an R.C.I. Yard Office Car) remain on NYCTA property.
-William A. Padron
To better clarify this matter, I just checked all the New York Division ERA Bulletins in my personal collection from the period of 1991-92. There were only two surviving green R-10's #2959 and #3184 still on NYCTA property, and both of them were based at Coney Island Yard. However, the December 1991 issue of that newsletter reported that #2959 had been sent to scrap (probably during a recent period of that year).
-William A. Padron
I'm not going to get into a circular "Yes I did/No you didn't" argument. Any number of people on this board were on the last trip of the R-10s, sponsored by the New York Division-Electric Railroaders' Association on October 29, 1989. The trip operated only a few weeks after the cars were removed from service for good. In fact, the service lives of the last few cars were extended by a few weeks after a Con Edison steam pipe burst on September 3 and sent asbestos-laden water into the Eighth Avenue Subway north of 42nd Street.
The October 30, 1989 car assignment (per the December, 1989 New York Division-ERA Bulletin) is as follows:
A: 10 R-32, 160 R-38, 176 R-44
B: 190 R-40
C: 168 R-30, 24 R-32
D: 88 R-68, 176 R-68A
E: 200 R-46
F: 328 R-46
G: 54 R-32, 12 R-46
J/Z: 72 R-40M, 80 R-42
L: 16 R-38, 128 R-42
M: 16 R-38, 136 R-42
N: 80 R-32, 70 R-40, 136 R-68
Q: 144 R-68
R: 240 R-32, 88 R-46
Franklin Avenue Shuttle: 8 R-32
JFK Express: 36 R-44
I don't see any R-10s here...does anybody?
David
I know I am not crazy the train I was on was a r10. They brought them back for a few weeks during that summer. I am ending this discussion right here.
By the summer of 1991 there were not enough R-10s left on the property to make up a train...and this is where I end the discussion :-)
David
Getting back to speed. One Summer Night or early Morning back in 1969, I took a A Train from Woodhaven Blvd to 207th St coming back from a party. It must have been 3 AM. The train flew the CPW 59-125th. I asked the Motorman at 207thm how fast he went. He stated 60 mph. it was the last run that night for him
From 59th to 125th, the route along CPW is slightly down grade. Before the removal of the field shunting, a good motorman could leave 59 on the post until 72nd St. Then coast and brake for the next 5 minutes all the way to 125th St. 60 MPH might have been a stretch but if you ran in power to 96th - it might have been possible. On the otherhand, though, the timers from 103rd would have been a bitch at that speed.
This was back in 1969
I believe the 60 ... until the northbound ramp down to 110th, you could wrap it and leave it there. I *operated* on the line in 1971, was a conductor in 1970 and yes, 60 is believable if things were just right - 55 easily for anything ... until you hit the "welcome to 125th timers" on the downhill - you had to bring it down to 40/45 to pass through there without getting tripped.
Viva la route of the lit "EXP" signs. :)
Of course, no more ... which is why I guess I keep PO'ing some by saying that the trains *ARE* slower today (ANY car) than they used to be. Castrate a train and they aren't quite in the mood to gallop like they used to ...
You're right on all counts. BTW, did you ever notice the massive I-beams between the express tracks as you pass 103rd St. northbound? There's no crash wall, either.
Oh yeah, though it wasn't QUITE as impressive from the wall side of the car as it was from the fan window. And to whack the steel there, after passing the first timers, you really had to DESERVE to deflect off the steel there. The horizontal members too, as they descended with the tracks, was a scary thought also ... a bit too much speed, car rising on the trucks, visions of peeling off the roof. :)
I rode an R38 A from 59th to 125th yesterday and timed the run. From start to stop, we averaged 30 mph. My R68A ride in Brooklyn was faster than that!
HORRORS! Well, anyone can tell you that in the days before the weenie timers, and when shunting was for real and there were real men and the homeballs were nervous, those things would do above 50 no matter WHAT you were running. Granted, we didn't have speedos back in those days but there WERE radar guns. If a police radar is sufficient "proff" then 62 was legitimately clocked at 81st (scientist types with nothing better to do than "gee, how fast are those trains?") ...
Now I'm GLAD I left the city if that's the best they can do now.
LOL
In a way, it's just as well the R-10s are no longer with us. The thought of then with the final field shunt step disabled makes we want to ralph.
I tell ya, after seeing that picture that SeVeN posted a day or two ago, that ALONE would be reason for me not to miss them anymore. They were great trains in their days (liked their elders even more personally) but what they had been allowed to deteriorate to is nothing short of "redbird" ... sometimes euthanasia is the right answer for a sick puppy. In that photo, it looked like they needed to be pushed.
Anybody remember that guy from the early days of Subtalk who claimed he rode an N train over the Queensborough Bridge only a few years earlier (like 1990)? That was FUNNY!
Yes but we solved that mystery. Wasn't it discovered that the tracks were still there albiet retractable with pop-up signals. the tracks were stored under the roadway and only extended when neded to allow a train to cross?
Where could they possibly have fitted? There is absolutely no trackage leading to the bridge and on the other side there's no outlet. I don't see how pop-up tracks would make a difference.
Dan
Beam me up Caz - we got another one!
Must of been Fred
Nah. Even Fred knows his favorite train took the 60th St. tunnel.:-)
Gotta love stubborn idiocy. I believe all remaining R10's were long gone from TA property and most were scrapped by the summer of 1991. I know for a fact that I never saw a single R10 on the C in 1990, my last year in HS and the last year I rode the C local regularly (every day).
Just out of curiosity, could you describe the interior of this
R10 on which you rode? What did the fans and side signs look
like, in particular, and what was the seating arrangement?
Also, what noises did the doors make when they opened and closed?
The fans were the small round fans. The seats were some back to back and the rest against the walls. I do not remember the door noises. What I do remember was it was over 100 degrees that day. The T/o was a female. Even though it was green could it have been something other than a r10.
Well, that describes an R10, so it leaves two possibilities.
Either you are mistaken about the year, or you experienced
an extremely rare subway event. Do you have any documentation
or perhaps indirect ways of confirming the date of 1991?
That was, after all, 10 years ago. I can tell you for sure that I was
on the last R-10 fantrip in October 1989 and I have a ticket stub
etc. to prove it. I also clearly recall that at the time, the R10s
had already been withdrawn from service, so the chances of there
being a complete train available for passenger use two years
later seem slim, do they not?
If you could document that date, I'm sure it would be the cause
of much scurrying through scrap date lists to figure out what
that consist could have been.
Hey, just last month, I rode a freshly painted silver/blue R9 KK train from 23rd/6th to 160th St. in Jamaica! I can't prove it, but I know it happened.
BTW I'm hearing that we will finally have a complete 2nd Ave. subway operational by 1977. With the healthy state of our city's economy, the expected rise of ridership will welcome the new line. Is this true?
Eeewwwww ... take it back! Take it back! That stupid Silver and blue on an R9 was the *epitome* of bad taste! :)
No way. The white/blue stripe was the best color scheme ever, edging out the green/black R10 paintjob. Unfortunatley, the white/blue combo was rarely seen for long without being desecrated by grafitti, and it evokes awful memories of the 1970's.
But for R1/9's it was HERESY ... aside from the Pullman green with "City of New York" on the sides, the rust patina of the R1/9's let you know that it was a train that would rust no more. :)
And don't forget with the silver and blue outside heretical paint job on the R-7/9s came the even worse pistachio green and gray paint scheme (with stenciled car numbers and occassionally even door lettering) on the inside. That color comob just screamed out "GRAFFITI ME! IT WOULD BE AN IMPROVEMENT!"
The World's Fair teal blue-and-off-white color scheme was the all-time best for the R-10s, though the few odd cars that got the new TA logo to go along with it looked ... well, they looked odd.
Agreed ... and I always liked the old "ta" a whole lot better than the "M" that followed ... but that "war between the states" color scheme was just silly.
Man oh man, that was the all time best paint scheme, especially that racing stripe. Pity the R-10s didn't keep that paint job for a longer period of time. Interestingly enough, I never saw a silver and blue R-7/9 in revenue service. Not too many of them got that paint job. OTOH, by 1970-71 my subway riding had dropped off drastically.
Agreed. MTA Silver/Blue Paint Scheme + R7/9 = instant upset stomach!
--Mark
Man, seeing that hurt my EYES ... fortunately they never got around to painting any of the ones I did ...
The only oldtimers they redid in silver and blue were on the Eastern Division, and then not too many of them.
Whew! HERESY I say ... but I don't recall any streetwalker versions of that paintjob on the KK either ...
>>>...streetwalker versions...<<<
??????????????
Peace,
ANDEE
Garish looking warpaint (the "war between the states" color scheme) Don't mind me, I talk in riddles sometimes ... I always thought that trying to repaint the older cars to look like the bingbongs was an act of rail prostitution. :)
Check out some of the photos in the R-7 and R-9 section. I never saw a graffitied old timer, either, but by the time the epidemic had arrived, I rarely ventured into the city. During all of 1974 and 1975, I didn't set foot on the subway at all.
Grafitti happened ... what bothered me more was the TA's grafitti. Words cannot describe how MUCH I hated that particular paint scheme. The Aqua/white for the A train was at least done tastefully from the original Pullman/ACF green. That silly silver and blue was just awful. Grafitti improved THAT. :)
And I hear they've had second thoughts about dismantling the outer end of the Jamaica el.:-)
You would have remembered the "tddk-ksssssss" as the door locks released and the doors opened. It was unique to the R-10s, as was the rapid-throbbing compressor sound. Did you hear that, too?
Also, were the side signs along the roofline?
I worked the C in 1991 out of Rockaway Park. The ONLY trains of color were the R30s. Most of the clean car program R27 cars were retired by then.
According to the book "REVENUE & NON REVENUE CAR DRAWING MANUAL" all R-10s were scrapped in the 1980s (except those preserved as museum cars and school cars). None survived as operating units into the 1990s. However, I did find one very interesting footnote which I cannot verify or refute at this time. However, according to this book, the R-10s that were painted silver w/blue sttripe had 115 HP traction motors installed. This dates back to the 1970s and is the first time I've ever heard this suggested. Does anyone have any independent information regarding this modification?
I think it's time to page Mister R-10, William Padrone, again.:-)
The entire R-10 fleet was painted silver and blue, so if what you say is true, it would mean they all got 115-hp motors. I must say this is the first time I ever heard of this. Can't substantiate it, though.
Er, make that Padron. Sorry about that, William.
The R10 was retired in the summer of 1989. The cars you refer to were the red R30A's, which made it to 1993.
Now there's a provocative question. You don't know how fast the R-10s went but want to know why they are faster than present cars. Well, in fairness, provocative may not be the correct term. Perhaps the phrase I'm looking for is "not well thoughtout". What do you think, Michael? Do you think the question was well thought out?
I think it's safe to venture without benefit of numbers that trains in general DID move through the system a bit faster than they do nowadays. Not to be a contrarian here, but it does seem to be a safe general assumption to make. I can't quantify because back in my day, we didn't need no steenking speedos. :)
I am not sure that I agree with the assumption but I know that I object to people who have no information and take that dearth of fact and use it as the basis of a question. I guess I'm just getting picky but before you can suggest that the A320 is faster than the MD11, you should at least know the speed of one of them.
Now back to the R-10 question. According the "The New York City Transit - Passenger Car Data - 1947 to 1976" book Pages 26 and 27 list all contracts from R-10 through R-46. As built (ACCORDING TO THIS OFFICIAL NYCT DOCUMENT) the maximum operating speed was 45 MPH on existing lines although the R-44/R-46 were built for a maximum operating speed of 70 MPH. At the same time, the balancing speed of each of these car classes was 50 MPH except for the two previously mentioned car classes who's balancing speed was 80 MPH. Now does anybody have any document to refute these numbers?
Now here's an interesting question. What is the minimum operating vertical radius for all NYCT cars except R-44/R-46? What is the minimum vertical radius for the R-44/R-46?
>>>>>Now here's an interesting question. What is the minimum operating vertical radius for all NYCT cars except R-44/R-46? What is the minimum vertical radius for the R-44/R-46?
Now HERE'S an interesting question. What in the heck is a vertical radius?
That's part of the question. Give it some thought.
I'm going to venture that the "vertical radius" has to do with the degree of vertical curvature that the tracks have at the bottom of a grade. Am I right, Steve? If not, what is it? (I freely admit that I'm coming from a position of pure ignorance on this one - and I have absolutely no idea what the difference between car types would be.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or at the top of a down-grade. Of course, you are absolutely correct. This is one of the design criteria built into a subway car. The point? Obviously, some here look at speed as the only significant measure of a subway car's performance. I'd love to see if some of our dimmer candles have even a clue as to the answer to the question.
You can have curves travelling up or down like at the top or bottom of a hill as well as curves in the sense that most of us are used to like the ones that go left or right around a corner. The radius of a curve is a the radius of a curve regardless as to whether it is vertical (up/down hills) or horizontal (left/right going around corners). Of course to complicate things further, you can have a compound curve where the curve is formed in all three dimensions at once - going up a hill and around a corner at the same time - so you need a radius for each individual curve (vertical and horizontal) to calculate the compound curve radius.
Why vertical and horizontal curves are useful factors to take into account when designing subway cars:
Clearance - between both trucks some equipment (or parts on each truck or truck frames for that matter) can hang down too close to the ground it could scrape against the ground/roadbed/rails when the subway car travels over a vertical curve because the subway car's bottom is a straight line the curve will cause the amount of clearance between certain areas of the bottom and top of the subway car to be closer than usual to the roadbed or ceiling of a tunnel respectively. These clearance issues could be a problem. I wouldn't want to be on a subway car when the roof gets scraped off by the ceiling of the tunnel when it starts going uphill...
* I'm very tired after a long week of work, so please pardon any mistakes that have crept in etc. as I haven't given this much of a proofreading...
-Robert King
The 'Clearance' issue is really secondary to the ability of the truck to properly track the vertical curve. On the standard truck, the equalized bars limit the difference in wheel height from axle to axle. In fact, this is so critical that the wheel diameter of any wheel on a truck may not vary by more than 1/4" from any wheel on the adjacent axle. If the wheel diameters fall out of this parameter or if the vertical radius of the rail is less that the specified dimension, it is quite possible for one or more of the wheels of that truck to leave the rail or at least not permit that wheel to bear its load. the results are predictable.
I knew I was screwing up somewhere, hence the note at the bottom. But I can't believe that I forgot about the truck's tracking abilities altogether. Tracking - I spent a little over an hour working on a record player, fighting with a phono cartridge, a headshell, and the turntable itself to get it all put together, calibrated and adjusted optimise the needle's TRACKING (and some other things).
I need some sleep. I'll write a post about last weekend's "railfan weekend" tomorrow.
-Robert (I've been working too hard - but they do give nice overtime pay for it) King
Shades of the garrard Lab 80 with the Shure V15 III?
I'm still using a Shure V-15 III, although its on a Dual 701 turntable.
Still have my original (circa 1968) Advent loudspeakers (3 sets of cones later).
Woops! Forgot this was SubTalk. Thought it was StereoTalk.
Wrong obesession. Sorry.
Hahaha ... well, the Bronx-built Rectilinear lowboys are gone to that great R10 chopup in the sky, but my Bronx-built ASR's are still on their original cones ... 600 watts rated too. :)
Not quite, I was working on a Dual 1229* like the one I own, although this one has a Shure Type III cartridge. I have a Stanton EE 600 cartridge on my own Dual 1229 - the Stanton's going to be replaced as soon as I can afford it.
Interestingly, the Dual 1229 I was working on was mounted in a really strange cabinet with "United Audio" maker's plates on it. I'd never seen that before. Every Dual turntable I've worked on (all but one or two with model numbers in the low 12## range) before, including my own, has been inside the various Noresco cabinets that were used over the years.
* I've seen Dual 1229Q turntables before but I've never actually worked on one. They are slightly different from the regular 1229.
-Robert King
Huh? Can I see that book?
Strikes me as one of those questions along the lines of "what is the air/speed ratio of an unladen swallow?" There are many curved things on subway cars. Truck radius for vertical movement? The body curves? Tunnel clearance? Happy to take a completely uneducated off the wall guess if I knew WHICH radius we're talking about. I'm not offended if told I'm wrong. :)
But this one strikes me as one of those "Why does the porridge bird lay his egg in the air?" kinda things ...
Vertical radius refers to the curve of the rail from the horizontal.
Once again, not to be picky, but had you asked "minimum vertical TRACK radius," the question would have been a bit clearer - I still wouldn't be able to cite chapter and verse here, but would have been a whole lot less confused ... a minor point of course.
I was wondering if you were trying to get at the radius of the arch of the roof, the truck's ability to flex on a climb or what. But we never did get the numbers ... absent a copy of the book out here, we have to take your word for it anyway but we're willing to accept it nonetheless. :)
I'm not even going to attempt to reply with specific numbers, but I'm going to guess that the R44/46 have a higher minimum vertical radius than the other cars. Because they were designed for high speeds on 2nd Ave, and that line would have gentler slopes than the older lines. After they realized that 2nd ave wouldn't be built anytime soon, they went back to the old radius. The lower the max radius, the steeper the base or top of a grade a subway car can climb.
The more interesting question is: Where does it matter?
I would hazard its in the couplers between the cars.
Can anyone post information/guidance?
Thanks,
John.
I would think a lower center of gravity on the cars, or more weight centered towards the trucks, would improve the minimum vertical radius, since it would make the car less prone to "tipping" the same way your basic yuppie's SUV is more prone to tipping while going around a curve than his dad's old station wagon was 25 years ago.
Since the R-68s are the heaviest cars, and assuming the bulk of that weight is located towards the bottom of the car, I would guess its MVR would be the best among the B Division fleet. (Of course, if that's true it brings up the question -- does moving the AC units from below the car floor to the roof affect the weight distribution on the R-142s and increase the chances of tipping? Or is the weight relocation small enough to make the shift a non-issue?)
Whoa, it would take one helluva curve to tip over a subway car!
Basically, the center of gravity is at about the floor line.
The AC compressors weigh a few tons, doesn't affect things
much by moving them up top.
Yes, but there are several curves on the BMT (not even counting Malborne St.) and the IRT where the angles are sharp enough to cause an unneeded conflict between the forward momentum and the angular momentum. It might not tip `em over, but it could cause contact to be lost with the inside rails.
As for the second part, I was just posturing the AC question since such a big deal was made over the "We can't AC the R-30s and will have to retire them because the compressors will make the cars too heavy" stories that were reported (albeit second hand) on the board a few years ago. But its nice to know the overhead ACs won't make the R-142s go all wobbly any time soon.
The R30s were a separate issue. Btw, they _COULD_ have been
air conditioned, people just didn't try hard enough. It would
have been quite costly though.
I'd have to do some calculations, but the speed required to tip
over a subway car is pretty high. Most likely the car would
derail before that happened.
I dont think this has anything to do with it. (Pardon me if Im wrong) but if I have been reading the thread right, the radius were talking about here is the one when you go over a curve (ie from going up to going down or vice-versa).
I certainly can see that a low COG helps going round a curve, I cant see it changes anything when changing vertical direction going in a straight line.
Now someone please tell me how I was wrong
John.
To visualize the vertical radius think of your HO trains. You have a section of track that's level but you want to elevate the track at some point to go over your Atlas Plate Girder Bridge. At the point where the level track begins to rise the rails curve upward until the desired grade is achieved. That curved segment of rail has several radii depending on several factors. The smallest radii is the minimum vertical radius. Obviously on a downgrade it's critical in the extreme because if it were too small, under-car components would scrape as the car began its descent. More realistically, because of the limited flexibility of a truck you need to insure that your design would allow for continuous 8-wheel contact at all times. If the car could not accomodate the vertical radius, it is conceivable that 2 wheels might lose rail contact. Result - the 3 other axles and roadbed might become over-loaded. With 2 wheels spinning free - possible derailment. Also DC motors do not do well when unloaded at minimum resistance.
Again - the point being speed is but one of the design criteria and not the most important.
Incidently, the minimum vertical radius for any NYCT 50' or 60' car is +/- 2000 feet.
Now does anyone want to guess at the minimum horizontal (normal curve) radius is for A division, BMT 60' cars, BMT 75' cars.
33 points for each correct answer.
Now does anyone want to guess at the minimum horizontal (normal curve) radius is for A division, BMT 60' cars, BMT 75' cars.
33 points for each correct answer.
I have no clue about the answer (at least not for NYCTA), but here's a question that I'm a bit curious about: From where is the horizontal radius measured: inner rail, outer rail, or centerline between the rails?
-- David
Chicago, IL
From where is the horizontal radius measured: inner rail, outer rail, or centerline between the rails?
If I am not mistaken, horizontal radius (like track spacing) is measured at the centerline.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You are correct.
I do know offhand that the 67' BMT standards were specified
for a minimum horizontal radius of 125', coupled. IRT cars
I'm guessing are about 95', I think the 60' B division cars
are about the same as the standards, and the 75' cars should
be slightly more.
According to my Passenger Car Data book, there ate the numbers.
IRT cars - Min. Radius = 90'
BMT/IND cars (60') - Min. radius = 125'
BMT/IND cars (75') - Min. Radius = 145'
So, do I get any points?
I can tell you from experience that an R17 can go around a 65'
radius loop, as a single unit, although the coupler will
make a slight modification to the crew step in the process :)
Wow, that's an OBSCURE measurement! I don't think I've ever
seen that mentioned as a design constraint for any equipment,
although obviously there has to be a minimum radius of vertical
curvature of the track beyond which center pins and coupler
yokes would get bent.
Since that actually occured during the Wakefield Derailment, it is logical to assume the vertical radius was violated when 9152 flipped off the structure. One correct answer is "it isn't 90 degrees".
Since you asked, the A-320 max cruise is mach 0.82 and the MD-11 is mach 0.87. Sources = boeing.com and airbus.com.
ON TOPIC: But the MD-11 "feels" smoother than the A-320, even though it cruises faster; this is because it is larger and handles turbulence better. Kinda like R-68s "feeling" smoother than R-40s.
So then it seems that the MD11 is a slower plane.
Not totally related, but the reason some people might feel that some classes are/were faster than others may have to do with the amount of noise and vibration they feel on these cars. There's very little to go by in a tunnel (as a passenger), and thus, it's possible for someone to feel as if class X is slower than class Y because it is quieter.
For the biker crowd here, if you ride with a full face helmet, try a 1/2 helmet some day, and if you ride with a 1/2 and no earplugs, try earplugs someday. I bet you you'll ride at a different speed with a different helmet.
People tend to somewhat correlate speed and noise, thus any change from the norm tends to stand out. If you're used to riding on R 44/46s, a 32 seems really fast, if you're used to 32s, a 44 seems slower.
comments/additions welcome.
I would add also the length of the cars (distance between bogies) as
another factor. IRT trains sound faster than 60'- 75' trains.
>>> the reason some people might feel that some classes are/were faster than others may have to do with the amount of noise and vibration they feel on these cars <<<
That is so true. At one point the L.A. Red Line subway reaches 70 mph. If you are at the pseudo railfan window (looking through the cab), you are well aware of the speed by how fast the tunnel lights flash by, but if you are sitting in the car reading a newspaper the smooth acceleration and relative quiet provide no feeling of great speed.
Tom
This may be considered a tourism question, but i do not. What do you guys think the premiere express routes in the system are, based on stations run through, speed, and car model that rides on it?
Roy
2 in Manhattan, 4/5 come to mind immediately.
A/D on CPW Q between Kings Hwy and Newkirk, 7 Exp, D,B,Q between W 4 and 34th
The Times Square - Grand Central Shuttle
but only going east. Going westbound the ride is long and boring.
Why Train Dude ... I'm surprised you didn't recommend an express ride on the R-68s, for which you provided more than sufficient proff that they are indeed slower than the other R-series subway cars :) :)
--Mark
This may be considered a tourism question, but i do not. What do you guys think the premiere express routes in the system are, based on stations run through, speed, and car model that rides on it?
The A train's Central Park West express run, between 59th and 125th.
Try the D from 59 St to Fordham Rd in PM rush hours. The run from 59 to 125 is a classic, skipping 7 stations. First, the local track is on the left, with the downtown tracks not visible. Then, you seem to be in a high speed tunnel by yourself; suddenly, your in the 4 track cut and cover mode. Skipping 135 St, you see 6 tracks; then roar into a 4 to 3 merge on 145 St lower level. Then skip about 5 more stops in 3 track mode until Tremont.
But, terminal to terminal, there will never be another one like the legendary NX.
>>>>>>>This may be considered a tourism question, but i do not. What do you guys think the premiere express routes in the system are, based on stations run through, speed, and car model that rides on it?
Tops has to be the #4 Robert Ray Express. I mean he ran through many stations, and had a high rate of speed when the R62 car models started riding right through all the pillars. All 3 thingys that you'd brought up!
Man...that is "Sick Transit Maximus." May as well direct him to the Luciano/Lewis Brighton Local-Express as well.
The fastest track section I venture to say is the 60th street tube, Queens Plaza (or Queensboro Plaza) to Lex/60th. A tad slower going the other way.
Central Park West is definitely the best single express stretch (125-59, skips 7). At 103st heading northbound it is possible to see two levels of the station at the same time, it is quite cool to watch. The run is even better if one takes the D and gets to go express all the way to Fordham Rd (rush hr. peak express, after skipping 135 also skips 4 then 1), but it's a long ride back down.
The Queens Blvd line heading east I would say is the best overall express run, skip 5, then 5, then 1. Queens Plaza to Union Turnpike on the E (trains crawl by Van Wyck Blvd, not worth the trouble to go that extra stop). Would be better if one could go all the way to 179th on the express (after Union TPK skips 2 then 1), but oh well...
The Brighton Express is the best surface-running express run, particularly since it is the only active bidirectional express run that isn't underground. Skip 1, 2, 3, 2, from Prospect to Sheepshead.
If the T/O isn't a wuss the run from Howard Beach to Broad Channel (A) can be very fast and enjoyable. You skip stops such as Hamilton Beach, the Raunt, and Goose Creek. Not that those stations still exist.
The express run which is the longest with a sustained speed is the SIR run from St. George to Great Kills. 20 minutes long, and you blow by 10 stops at full speed. The R-44s on this run still have field shunt (though the flat wheels nearly negate this acceleration advantage). If you take the 4:50 train and ride it to Prince's (or Princes or Princes' or Princess) Bay one can get the only off-peak direction express train back, which skips Clifton through Tompkinsville as well as all stops south of Prince's Bay (obviously stops at Tottenville).
Hands down, the 2 from 96th to Chambers.
For me, it has to be the #5 rush hour Bronx Thru Express to Dyre Ave., northbound, afternoon only. Start at Franklin Ave. in Brooklyn. You get a rather speedy run through THREE boroughs, two underwater river crossings, numerous curves throughout (especially at Union Square and between 138 & 149 Sts.), sustained elevated run in the Bronx, and finally the jaunt up to Dyre. From Franklin, you skip 4, stop at 2, skip 1, then the Joralemon St. tunnel under the East River. In Manhattan there's four stops, then ZOOOM! Skip 4, Brooklyn Bridge-14 St. Skip 3 more to Grand Central. The descent from upper to lower level after Grand is priceless! The Upper East side straightaway...skip 1, 2, 4. Express track rises going thru 103 St. station...cool. Complicated track system around 125 St. Three quick stops in the south Bronx (look for the S-curve after 138), then WATCH OUT! Blow by SEVEN stops on the elevated. Two sharp curves after Simpson and East Tremont stations. East 180 street, look for the train yards to the east, and on the flyover north of there. And last, the smooth run up the Esplanade on an old, long-defunct commuter line to Dyre Avenue.
Pure fun, I tell you!
I'll tell you the best route:
The A from Far Rockaway to 207th. You get to see:
Hammel's Wye. What other place has a wye?
The Fulton St. Express: It's undermentioned on this board. Some places get speeds just like the dash.
The rockaway's provide one of the closest things to a countryside in NYC.
If you don't like countryside, ride it between Chambers and ENY
CPW. No other place rivals CPW. NONE.
Aside from this, I'd have to say riding an R-40 on the Q between W4 and 34th is cool too, but if it's during rush hour, it isn't worth it.
i tred that far rockaway route a short while ago. it's truly excellent. flying at speed close to 50 mph, full outdoors, bridges, water, islands just above water level...cool. the Q can hit 50 bet. 34st-4st. which is neat.
>>the Q can hit 50 bet. 34st-4st. which is neat.<<
The B/D can do this too. Don't fall in with the "Hippo" crowd. They're all bad people.
NOTE: For all you R-68 haters, this was not meant to insult you.
sorry to say, but i do dislike the 68/ 68a's. they are noticeably slower than 44/46's... and while some may say i have no proof, i think i've seen it enough times in my life to draw this conclusion. even the wonderful slant r40 can outrun them. and reach higher top speeds too.
>>but i do dislike the 68/ 68a's. they are noticeably slower than 44/46's<<
No they aren't. Go to CPW. The D and A run there. They reach the same speeds.
R-40 might be fast, but they also ride as rough as an R-38. They also lack seating capacity. And the seats that are there suck.
I don't care what you saw. I see R-46 G accelerate faster than R-44 A and then R-44 A running faster than R-46 G 15 secs later everyday. This hardly proves anything.
<> <--remember these
i see a few minute problems. it's not just the speed reached, it's how quickly they are. 44/6's are superior. but the main thing is, while it shouldn't be a real matter... most G trains have 6 cars right? and A's have 8? it shouldn't matter, as each car pulls its own weight... but it may make some difference. You may be right, as G trains and their 6-car at least *seem* to accelerate with a bit more verve than the standard 8 car layout.
goodnight
Roy
>> it's not just the speed reached, it's how quickly they are. 44/6's are superior.<<
Hardly. The R-44/6 were faster than anything, but now they are just as fast as an R-68.
I've also seen the following on an 8 car G.
Could we please stop the "This car class is faster than that car class" debates? They're pointless and circular, and there isn't anything that can be said that hasn't been said ad nauseum.
Thanks.
David
Some of us have tried everything short of grenades to put a wrench into the gearbox of that runaway. Ah, if only we had Deputy Barney to shoot out the gas tank. :)
Some of us have tried everything short of grenades to put a wrench into the gearbox of that runaway.
Well, perhaps it's time to try grenades.
Dan
Ummm ... wow ... I know there's a lot of petty disagreement and some childish behavior here sometimes but I suppose that'll settle the R68 debate. Heh.
And watch out for kibbitzers like me ... :)
I too recently road the A line to Far Rockaway fun ride, even for a old IRT guy like me one good thing Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn, not too many timers and curves like my beloved IRT and the trains are quicker than the The dirty D. Its worth hanging around and waiting for a railfan view ala R-34.
My bad R-38!!!
This is just to verify what I posted in the past in regard to seeing the delivery of R-142 6580. I thought I had mistaken the number since I just woke up when I saw the loco pulling the cars at Tremont Avenue. But today I saw those five cars (6576-6580) undergoing testing on White Plains Road.
OK, I will ask for an armisitice. Someone please tell me why the Sea Beach has such low ridership compared to the Brighton. And don't give any of this shit that the Brighton is so great and the Sea Beach is so bad. Give me the honest facts. And does the West End ridership also outstrip the Sea Beach. The truth may hurt but I have just rubbed on a thick wad of artificial skin so I think I can take it standing up.
Good question. Some answers:
1. The Brighton is the only line serving much of its service area. The Sea Beach is within walking distance of the West End and the Culver over much of its service area, thus splitting the ridership.
2. The Brighton's service area has more apartment buildings than does the Sea Beach's service area, thus it is more populous.
3. The continuing saga of the Manhattan Bridge has eroded Sea Beach ridership.
Here's West End and Sea Beach annual ridership by station in 1999:
West End:
Bay 50th Street: 687,686
25th Avenue: 1,082,596
Bay Parkway: 1,764,721
20th Avenue: 1,217,529
18th Avenue: 1,188,188
79th Street: 1,223,636
71st Street: 1,219,632
55th Street: 717,209
50th Street: 986,999
Fort Hamilton Parkway: 1,145,938
Ninth Avenue: 1,413,343
TOTAL: 12,647,477
Sea Beach:
86th Street: 376,124
Avenue U: 472,002
Kings Highway: 745,954
Bay Parkway: 969,343
20th Avenue: 789,930
18th Avenue: 814,831
Fort Hamilton Parkway: 982,928
Eighth Avenue: 1,424,912
TOTAL: 6,579,024
(Coney Island and New Utrecht Avenue/62nd Street not included)
Approximately twice as many people board at stations along the West End Line on an annual basis as board at Sea Beach stations. Incidentally, the Brighton Line had 32,332,063 riders boarding at its stations in 1999 (not including Coney Island, W. 8th Street, or Prospect Park, all of which have multiple services). This is more than twice as many as the West End had.
David
Also there is no train East of the Brighton below Ave H, So it has a larger catch area by bus. to and from the Southern Part of the boro. Just look at your map and you will see.
I believe I covered that with my answer #1 :-)
David
Think of Kings Hwy on the Brighton, how many buses stop there?
Is there such a major bus transfer on the other south brooklyn lines??
Kings Highway on the Brighton Line serves the B-2 (Ave R / Kings Plaza), B-7 (Kings Highway), B-31 (Gerritsen Beach) and B-82 (Canal Av - Starrett City) buses of NYC Transit, and the B-100 to Mill Basin operated by Command. FOr those passengers coming from neighborhoods east of Kings Highway / East 16th St, this is the closest station to them (although some passengers could use the Flatbush/Nostrand Station of the IRT.
The other major bus / subway transfers of the BMT Southern Division, in no particular order, are:
- 86th St / Bay Pkwy (B-82, B6, B1 xfer to B & M lines)
- 86th St / 4th Ave (B-16, B-37, B-63, B-64, S-53 and S-79 xfer to R)
- Coney Island / Stillwell Ave (B-36, B-64 and B-74 xfer to B,D,F,N)
- Sheepshead Bay (B-4, B-36, B-49 xfer to D,Q)
And while not a multiple bus transfer, the B-35 along Church Ave is a major feeder into the Brighton Line, too, judging by the usage of that station.
The Brighton has more buses feeding passengers to it than the other BMT South Brooklyn Lines.
(I'm not counting Atlantic Ave / Pacific St) which serves virtually all the BMT South Brooklyn Lines)
--Mark
How about Flatbush/Nostrand on the IRT B2, B11, B41, B42 Q 35
Yes, you're right, but the Flatbush / Nostrand station is not a BMT Southern Division line :)
--Mark
True, but it still draws from the same areas that the Brighton Draws From
Well, historically speaking, the Brighton was the only of the original steam railroads which served a significant estabished community from day one. The Brighton was established as a commuter road and received a completely grade-separated right-of-way significantly earlier, in terms of development, than the other roads, so there was denser development along its line, and significant upscale development: Prospect Park South, Ditmas Park, Fiske Terrace.
These conditions had a snowballing effect on Brighton ridership--better service = better development = more riders = better service, etc. It didn't hurt any that the Brighton thus had a lock on most of the business from about Ocean Parkway as far east as major development went.
The market for southwestern Brooklyn was divided among the Culver, West End and Sea Beach. The West End and Sea Beach, criss-crossing, serve the same general area. The West End historically has had better service, and more direct service, serving more heavily developed areas, than the Sea Beach. For years immediately prior to 1915, the Sea Beach was a virtual branch of the West End, from 62nd Street south.
And in modern times, the TA's decision to demote the Sea Beach to a slow service hasn't helped either.
Paul,
That last statement is interesting: there is an express track on the Sea Beach, but it is apparently unused. If there were express service during rush-hour in the peak direction, do you think that the ridership would increase?
Which of the Culver, West End & Sea Beach lines does have express service, like the Brighton Line has?
John.
None of the other lines mentioned (Culver, West End, or Sea Beach) has scheduled express service. The West End has never had scheduled express service, although it has a single express track and three stations (Bay Parkway, 62nd Street, and Ninth Avenue) with two island platforms. As to the Culver, it had express service at one time, but that service was removed during the 1975 fiscal crisis. From time to time, NYCT has offered to reinstate it, but the riders on the inner portion (the local stops from Church Avenue to Jay Street) don't want it because it would dilute their service without speeding up their rides.
David
The express trackson Sea Beach do not have any stations at all, so there would not be any point in implementing an express service, unless they want something like the NX of the 60s which ran from Brighton Beach thru Coney Island to Chamber St on the Nassau loop think). That was eliminated because of high costs of switching at Coney Island, but I doubt ridership was high nevertheless, since the only people it benefited were the people near the beach areas.
Minor aside of historical accuracy (seems to matter to other folks) ... the NX ran to 57th Street. But it did diddle for ridership which is why it was snuffed faster than you can say "RJ" ...
I doubt ridership was high nevertheless, since the only people it benefited were the people near the beach areas.
This was one of the prime reasons why there was no station between 59th St (Brooklyn) and Stillwell. It reproduces a limited-stop service that I believe used to run on the Culver line until that time. It was very successful in getting crowds to Coney Island very quickly in the days of the "nickel empire", but would have survived longer had there been an additional express station at, say, Kings Highway and another at 62nd St / New Utrecht Ave.
--Mark
The express trackson Sea Beach do not have any stations at all, so there would not be any point in implementing an express service, unless they want something like the NX of the 60s which ran from Brighton Beach thru Coney Island to Chamber St on the Nassau loop think). That was eliminated because of high costs of switching at Coney Island, but I doubt ridership was high nevertheless, since the only people it benefited were the people near the beach areas.
The express trackson Sea Beach do not have any stations at all, so there would not be any point in implementing an express service, unless they want something like the NX of the 60s which ran from Brighton Beach thru Coney Island to Chamber St on the Nassau loop think). That was eliminated because of high costs of switching at Coney Island, but I doubt ridership was high nevertheless, since the only people it benefited were the people near the beach areas.
Only the Brighton has a real express service. Sea Beach and West End are only express on Fourth Avenue, not on their branches.
When and if all four tracks on the MB reopen the TA might try another express service. If they do the Sea Beach, I think they would have to attempt running something like the N to Kings Highway only during rush hours and an NX-type express covering Kings HIghway to Coney Island.
The West End would seem to be a natural for a local and express service, since it has stronger ridership and already has two separate rush hour services, but the TA probably wouldn't want to annoy the riders at the local stations on the West End.
Hey, I'm still waiting for the TA to put back Brighton Expresses on Saturday. They have Saturday-Sunday Express on Fulton Street, where they never used to run.
It seems that instead of the present Saturday, local-only 8-minute headways that the TA could institute on Saturdays the week-day off-peak 10-minute headways of local + express service.
The R-142As as we know makes some wierd sounds accelerating and decelerating. I believe this has something to do with the the AC propulsion ?
Could the source of the sound be the inverter, changing DC voltage to AC ?
P.S. Why doesn't the Bombardier built R-142s make the same sounds ? They are also AC propulsuion.
Let's see who answers this post first, Jeff H. or Train Dude.
Bill "Newkirk"
i'm guessing but aren't they of different brands? Bombardier uses Alsthom and Kawasaki uses Adtranz? Adtranz traction motors are known for making all sorts of weird noises. Alsthom's always plays a melody.
"Bombardier uses Alsthom and Kawasaki uses Adtranz?"
I dunno for sure, but my guess is that it is the other way around cuz Bombardier merged with Adtranz recently. -Nick
remember that these cars were built before the take over of adtranz by bombardier. and while reading about the cars on another website, it was told that kawasaki used Adtranz traction motors and bombardier used Alsthom.
>>"Bombardier uses Alsthom and Kawasaki uses Adtranz?"<<
If that's the case, then I take back what I've said about the R-142A's. They will be a maintenance headache (as with anything manufactured by Adtrash).
It szoud be called B.A.T.(Bombardier Adtrash transportation)
"it should be called B.A.T.(Bombardier Adtrash transportation)"
but then again one rescued the other and is in the middle of turning that trash into a fine name in the u.s. may philly and New York had a bad experience with the two manufacturers however, worldwide and in the united states they are the most reliable rapid transit manufacturers. its a fact that most transportations systems turn to them for fine ass rolling stock as opposed to others such as breada, kawasaki,siemens, gloucester,etc. who were very bad at rolling stock.
Well, in Philly, we never had a bad experience with Kawasaki. I've always imagined that there would be an all Kawasaki SEPTA rail fleet. They were worthy of replacing The PCC's, and they were worthy of replacing the old Broad Street fleet (they should have ordered 226 instead of 125), and I think they are worthy of replacing The Almond Joys, The Brill Bullets and Strafford cars, but unfortunately, ASEA (later ABB and still later Adtranz) got the latter two contracts. They were 5 years late with The Norristown order, were prone to breakdowns, and are 10 tons overweight. They were 3 years late with The Market-Frankford order, they are 5 tons overweight, carbody is constructed shoddily, have door problems, trucks that crack, wheels pop off, and cheap seats. If The Budds were saved for a new subway line in Philly (another subject altogether) they would evenoutlast the M-4's. If Kawasaki got those two contracts, not only the new fleets would arrive on time, the last car to arrive would be 5 months ahead of schedule. I understand that new equipment has a few bugs to work out, but malfunctioning doors, cracking trucks, and loose wheels a deathtrap make. The seats are minor. Maybe in New York not everybody likes Kawasaki, but down here in Philly, I've got a lot of nice things to say about them.
>>Maybe in New York not everybody likes Kawasaki,...<<
They are excellent car builders. They built the R-68A, which is supposedly superior to the R-68, and the R-62, which is better than the R-62A. From what I understand, their R-142 cars are having less severe problems than the ones from Bombardier.
The only beef I have with them is that they won the R-62 contract from Budd (sinking budd) and then didn't build the R-62A.
I've always said that they are excellent car builders. It seems like that a few people aren't crazy about the R-142/142A's. As for Kawasaki winning The R-62 contract over Budd, well they won The B-IV contract over Budd as well. When I heard about this back in '82, I admit, I was aprehensive because Kawasaki had won and they were going to send us a weird looking subway car. When I first saw The B-IV's, I've said to myself "That's a Kawasaki? It looks more like a Budd.", not only that, it sounded like a Budd, ran like a Budd, and operated like a Budd, it has a modern dashboard (with a Cineston control as well).And The B-IV did earn the nickname "Mounds" because they are the close cousin to The Budd Almond Joy. My thought is that the builder's plate should have said "Built By Kawasaki: Designed By Budd" (as The B-IV was based on The Almond Joy design). Kawasaki IMO did Budd justice by carrying on the design (as did Vickers with The PATCO design). Now we have a fleet of subway cars built in Elmira, N.Y. and a fleet built in Kobe, Japan, now which fleet looks more American?
which one looks more american? i would say..................both except one looks more modern than the other.
"they are excellent cars. The built R-68A Which is superior to the R-68" the R-68A has bad body structure its flimsy. it had more problems than the R-68. while they are the best in the fleet at the moment, they catch a problem before an R-68, where is the superiority in that? "the R-62 which is better than the R-62A" ok. it came in with less problems in 84/85 but its flimsy body structure trails bombardier's R-62A. Look at the accident involving a buckling car at fordham on the 4 line in october 2000 today it is more often called out of service than the R-62A. why you think there is so many Redbirds on the 4 line?
besides car shortage from incidents? "I understand that the R-142 is having less severe problems than the ones from bombardier." less severe problems i agree but it was only one severe problem with the bombardier's breaking which was flawed. the Kawasaki came in with more problems. the computer only read half the train. the breaks were not working right, the doors malfunctioned, the automated announcements malfunctioned, a part fell from under it, shoddy car body causes quaking and squeaking, the ride is choppy compared to bombardier's, and there were loose screws in the interior of some of the cars. and if this is hard to believe, then why did the bombardier pass the 30 day test before the kawasaki did? also almost every new kawasaki R-142A that came in, it went out of service at the end of the week are the next week. thankfully that has changed now. so fact is they aren't superior. and if they were, they would have turned to them for a larger fleet.
Thats why daimler chrysler sold them because Adtranz were slipping up. as for those M-4's they were built under inexperienced employees so i was told. Bombardier had the same problem but then fired the inexperienced and hired the experienced; the reason why the R-142 from them came in with less problems than the R-62A project. in europe Adtranz rolling stock is praised with accolades of quality. here between philly's experience with them, i feel for you guys down there. even though kawasaki had done so well, from my experience and observations, that R-142 was poorly constructed eventhough it is reliable now. when it first came in, it conked out. then putting it through service, the computer malfunctioned. the next time something fell from under it, next the doors wouldn't work. next the automated announcements didn't work. next breaking(which wasn't defected just needed tweaking). when bombardier came in, it was just with plain breaking. then the breaking became a flaw a few months later. even though this is more serious, it came out mostly problem free with everything else. and everyone says they are so bad.
Yeah, it's the traction inverters. AC induction motors run best
when the line frequency applied is very close to their rpm.
Therefore, the traction package creates a variable frequency
3-phase AC voltage which is applied to the motors. As the train
accelerates, the frequency increases to match. That's the sound
you are hearing. The R142As must be using multi-tap motors, same
way as some household appliances have high and low speeds based on
how you hook up the leads, because there are three distinct frequency
ranges traversed during acceleration and braking.
I was at the 149th station last fall where the #2 & # 5 run through... MAN DID THAT 142 SOUND NASTY.. !! ...whew !!!!.....
Salaam,
they were probably crying, cuz they know how much u hate them! :-) -Nick
LOL !! actually they sounded like the los angeles RED LINE which we call here, @ ..... ( The Subway to Nowhere ) !!!
I have heard some MARTA trains sound like that and the GREEN & BLUE line light rail here sound similar as well !!
A very sickening weak wicked sound !! Now the sound i did like was all of the pre world war 2 rolling stock ( trolleys too )
LOL !! & have a nice day !!!
"actually they sounded like the los angeles RED LINE which we call here"
That's just the A/C traction. The Boston red line 01800 have it and I prefer it to the regular subway sound.
OK this proves we all have different tastes in rail transit sounds etc.. the los angeles red line subway to me made the same SICK
over high tech UGLY sounds !! Sure eventually the subway car started to move !! ETC ???
I just think Dand124 that I am a regular old fashoned CAT when it comes to the good old TRADITIONAL sounds of the good old days !!
( everyone has there own opinion on this ) @ peace !!!
huh?
yep !! ..............!!!
Oh be quiet! The 142As are the most pleasant ride in the system!
Dan
Maybe in time these weird sounds will become as much loved by the fans as the sound of the old style traction motors on the original equipment was to us old timers.
I'm curious about some European equipment. The Helsinki metro cars and the (Swiss built I think) Finnish elec. loco's both feel like dynamic braking drops out in noticeable stages as the train is almost stopped. Rather annoying actually. I wonder if that's the same AC technology used on the R142 or if those things are even AC motored.Never ridden an R142 so don't know if they have that same feel when stopping.
on the R-142, they don't drop out until the train comes to a complete stop.
The new MARTA (atlanta) CQ312 trains make the exact same sounds. Those cars were made by Breda but their propulsion might be identical.
The DC Metro breda cars make a whining sound Is this normal? It makes me think the train is going to chatch on fire.
This is the text of the current take-one posted on NJ Transit NE Corridor Trains:
What Is NJ TANSIT Doing To Address Capacity?
NJ TRANSIT has taken a number of steps to ensure more efficient, reliable service and is working hard to provide more seats for our customers. With ridership soaring, we are focusing on strategies to update and expand our fleet through comprehensive rehabilitation projects and the purchase of new rail cars and locomotives. We realize that many of you are unable to get a seat during your commute and we ask for your continued patience. We value your patronage and are committed to meeting and, hopefully, exceeding your travel expectations in the future. Listed below are answers to frequently asked questions that will help you understand our current limitations and the steps we are taking to address capacity and improve your commute.
Q. Why dont you just add more cars to trains you currently operate?
A. There are many issues that are involved in adding extra cars to trains that we operate. The number of cars is limited my many factors, including the amount of weight locomotives can pull, the length of platforms at stations, and available space at rail yards. We expect delivery of two ALP-46 electric locomotives by August 2001 and 22 additional locomotives by late 2002. These new locomotives will allow us to add more cars to some trains because they have the horsepower to pull up to 12 single-level cars or 10 bi-level cars. The purchase of 33 diesel locomotives also is planned during 2001. Another factor that keeps us from adding more cars is that we simply do not have any extra cars available. Currently, we have 714 cars in our rail fleet to serve 106,700 weekday riders on 12 rail lines. If we remove a car from one train and put it on yours, we impact customers. If not you, then your fellow commuter. To ensure that we are using the available cars where we need them the most, we regularly monitor travel patterns and balance the distribution of equipment to coincide with system-wide needs.
Q. how many new cars will you place into service?
A. NJ TRANSIT has purchased 200 new Comet V rail cars, the first of which will be delivered for testing in August 2001. Twenty-seven of the cars are scheduled for delivery by early 2002 and the remaining cars by early 2003. With the purchase of the Comet V cars and delivery of 116 rehabilitated Comet II cars by mid-2001 through early 2002, we will add 130 additional cars into service. Seventy of the 200 Comet Vs ordered will replace older equipment scheduled for retirement. In addition to the single-level car purchase, we plan to purchase 200 bi-level cars by 2004, which will increase seating capacity by approximately 25 percent compared to other types of cars currently in service.
Q. What other improvements is NJ TRANSIT advancing to help alleviate the capacity issue?
A. In addition to new rail cars, we are upgrading selected facities to continue to maintain our cars at a high standard and avoid potential delays. Our rail expansion plan calls for upgrading our existing rail maintenance faility in Kearny, and building or refurbishing rail yards throughout the system. It will also provide additional space for equipment storage, enabling us to store longer trains. To accommodate more rail traffic to New York, the signal system that controls the movement of trains in and out of Penn Station is undergoing a series of upgrades. These upgrades will allow NJ TRANSIT to operate four more trins per hour during peak periods, increasing our service by approximately 27 percent. Right now, we have the capability to operate 15 trains per hour during peak periods using the maximum number of cars that are allowed into and out of Penn Station New York. We also are building a new 50,000-square foot concourse within Penn Station New York that includes additional escalators, platform staircases, and elevators. These improvements will allow quicker exits from train platforms and easier access to other areas of the station. The new East End Concourse will open early 2002.
John
The purchase of 33 diesel locomotives also is planned during 2001.
I hope they won't be replacing The Wise Old Ancients ie units 4100->4112. These were the GP-40P's delivered to the CNJ in 1967 and rehabbed several times since.
Ask them. I doubt that this will be a Frequently Asked Question. What I posted was the text of the take-one verbatim.
John.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
June 2, 2001
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Just came back last night from London, where I met up with Simon Billis for 6 hours of Rail fanning on Saturday. Dont remember where he took me, but we rode the Tubes, Brit Rail, London Docks and the Tram in East Croyden, Final ride from Croyden to London Victoria Station was the best. It was on The Brighton Express, First Class. It is the 3rd Brighton Line I rode in the pastb 10 months, on 3 Continents. NYC USA North America, Melbourne Victoria Australia, and Greater London England. So far no other Sea Beach Lines as I said 3 Brightons only 1 Sea Beach, eat you heart out Fred
Ahh, but you miss the fact that the Brighton Line in London takes you to the BEACH, right on the SEA. Ironic, eh?
Well, give or take a mile or so.
Simon
Swindon UK
The one is Melbourne leaves you 500 yards from the beach, and the Brighton in Brooklyn, you all know where
Ah, but does the Brighton actually go to Brighton Beach in either of the other two locations?
Yes, if fact the in Melbourne it goes to No Brighton, Brighton and South Brighton Beaches
I assume that you also checked under "Slow Beach", and found it only as a synonym for New York's N train.
Right On
Just came back last night from London, where I met up with Simon Billis for 6 hours of Rail fanning on Saturday. Dont remember where he took me, but we rode the Tubes, Brit Rail, London Docks and the Tram in East Croyden, Final ride from Croyden to London Victoria Station was the best. It was on The Brighton Express, First Class. It is the 3rd Brighton Line I rode in the pastb 10 months, on 3 Continents. NYC USA North America, Melbourne Victoria Australia, and Greater London England. So far no other Sea Beach Lines as I said 3 Brightons only 1 Sea Beach, eat you heart out Fred
I visited the new terminal 4 at JFK today. The bus stops are quite a walk from the terminal, but the terminal was spectacular. Nice and spacious, plus a direct access to the Airtrain.
There was a level between on the front side with windows to two trackways on each side. The tracks haven't been nailed down completely. There was a demo car of the Airtrain car, it has sideways seating with upholstered seats. Looks nice. It's amazing all the progress they've made in Airtrain, the main structures are mostly built, and on the bus ride to the A train station, we passed the yard, which looks to be completely finished. All in all impressive speed.
While waiting for a Manhattan bound A I saw a non in service train of R44's heading south, stopping on the Rockaway bound side (but not opening doors) then pulling out. There was a bunch of people in the front car. Was this a school car?
Saw another OOS R44 train reverse on the N/B express track.
After waiting for (A)while the A train came. R44's. The ride was jerky and slow, the R44's seem to ride much worse than R46's. Even the 68's have a better ride than the R44's. After trying to get doors closed at Rockaway Blvd for a minute the rest of the trip to Jay went OK. The Fulton express was fast, but those timers do ruin it a bit. The 38's seem to do better. We passed an R32 C train.
I got off at Jay, and a few minutes later that R32 C train came. The R32 C did seem to beat us on the upgrade out of Utica.
I took an F train Manhattan bound. We picked up two track workers at York, and we stopped mid-tube. The track workers were telling the T/O where to stop, then he opened part of the right side door (and there's a chime). One of the guys ripped out a metal guard with stripes on it, then put it in a bag. After getting that done, the T/O keyed the door closed and we were on our way. A D pulled out of W4TH just as we arrived but didn't save anything. The D was being held at around 47-50 (this was around 1:30pm). Along the tracks to our left (just before the F goes into the connection to 53rd) there were track workers and a stuck Q train with track workers on it, but it appeared it was not in service. The Q was going to 57/6, but I guess maybe that train got stuck.
The ride to Queens was uneventful.
We had some nasty thunderstorms this afternoon, betcha LIRR and the Far Rock IND had problems. Just before 4pm it poured, with lots of wind and lightning. Fortunately I was on the bus going back to Nassau in Queens. Must've been something to see from the 7 train.
Did you see the Transit Museum flyer (or did you get past the nostalgia train part)? There is a trip in July where you can walk some of the Van Wyck el. Im thinking very hard about taking the day off (its mid-week, starts at 1pm).
Now if only I could find my TM flyer
John.
I checked out the new terminal Fri. after getting out of class. I saw the new station built into it, but I missed the demo car and the yard.
You most likely did see a school car, as we are all officially out practicing on the road now. That one wasn't mine, though, as we were on the R today.
(From Command Center sources)
At 1:45 PM, one of the wheels on an uptown D train locked in place without the crews knowledge. The wheel sliding against the rail started making all kinds of sparks and in turn created multiple track fires all along the D line up to W 4 Street. And it also created a broken rail just south of W 4th. The D train stayed at W4 for over two hours until they could find a way to move the disabled train. Needless to say that all 6th, and even 8th Avenue service was messed up for the early part of the evening rush. B trains were arriving up to 50 minutes late, and they had to reroute an uptown C train to Bedford Park Blvd. just like old times.
TD, any more info?
All you want. Car #2658 was the south motor of the 13:03 D Stillwell. The #1 gearcase of that car (A new truck) failed around Parkside Ave. The T/O dragged the train through downtown Brooklyn to W4th St. The train was moved to Chambers St on the A line where the B/O car was being prepared for movement to Coney Island.
How can you not notice that? I can understand the TO not hearing anything 10 cars away, but wouldnt a passenger complain?
Whats the TA policy if a passenger comes up to a TO or CR and says I really think you should listen to whats going on in the last car. It sounds like a big problem to me?
John
Wonder if the TA has "wheel slings" and little tow trucks for things like this. Little helper wheels ... never mind ... at the rate I'm going tonight, I'm going to have Train Dude on Ritalin by the end of the week.
Whats the TA policy if a passenger comes up to a TO or CR and says I really think you should listen to whats going on in the last car. It sounds like a big problem to me?
I don't know what the policy is, but some months ago I was on a Queens-bound E and the car I was in was making a horrible "flumpa-flumpa-flumpa" sound at the #1 end. When I got off at Union Turnpike I told the C/R about it, giving the car no. and end and suggesting it be looked at when it got to Archer. Who knows - maybe he thought I was an off-duty employee. Anyway, I saw the same C/R a couple days later and he thanked me for reporting it, as it was (in his words) "the mother of all wheel flats". The train was apparently taken out of service for it.
Good for you ... I think you're entitled to a genuine "Junior RCI" badge ... Train Dude? Pin one on this guy!
Flat wheels are the nemesis of safe rolling and can beat the hell out of rails to the point where a whole line goes down as the result of a broken rail from excessive beatings. That was probably a locked wheel for a while too if it turned out to be THAT flat ...
The LIRR M-1's often make flat wheel sounds, and from commuter stories, the D train fiaco is quite a common occurrance on the LIRR.
Flat wheels and locked pinions are not necessarilly related. Locked pinion will always give you flats (Incidently the D train ended up with 8-10" flats. But flats are not always caused by locked pinions.
The LIRR's problem with flat wheels is due to hard braking, improperly functioning slip-slide, brakes in emergency and too many dead motors.
I've done the same in the past too in DC.
Does your MDBF get charged for that or can you blame it
on the truck shop :)
From what I had heard from the B line TSS, the B/O train was still at the Chambers Street relay track 27 hours after the fact. They tried to move it but it was too unsafe.
Does anybody know if the train was able to be moved yet, and if so what method was used since dragging appeared to be out of the question (at the time)?
Today at chambers at 3:10, there could be see the sparks of welding on the relay track. Most likely work on that specific train. So, it's probably being moved soon, or already been moved.
those bad old 68's....
Roy
As a matter of fact, I can probably take a guess about what you want to know. The 4-car unit was on 5 track at Chambers St. Personnel from Emergency Response were removing the pinion gear from the #1 truck on car #2658. Once that is done, the wheels , which were badly grooved and flat from the incident, must be welded. Steel plates are welded into the flat spots. Following that, the train will be moved to @ restricted speed to Coney Island for a truck change. It'll then be sent back to me for inspection before being released to service.
Thanx TD for the info.
How is the work you've described done under such tight clearances?
--Mark
To be a smart-ass - with great difficulty. Actually it's not an un-true statement. RCIs have to get under the car - laying in the muck that's in the trough and just do it. Because there was such significant damage tot he gearcase, I believe that they ultimately burnt the pinion out with a torch. Once the pinion is removed, the car is jacked up so the wheels can be rotated and steel plates awe welded into the flat to put some meat on the wheel. The wheel can then be ground down a bit but it must be rolled at restricted speed to the overhaul shop for a truck change.
Emergency repairs under those conditions are rough but must be done. When we had the incident at 135th St on the A line about 5 years ago, we (several hunded) spent over 24 hours just cutting up the car and putting 'bite-size' peices on flatcars - just to open the road up again. The worst I've seen took place on X-mas day in 1982 or 83. An R-44 going south over Hammel's wye cracked a wheel right through the hub. The only option, after the customers were evacuated, was to change the truck, up on the bridge with a -20 wind-chill. Yeah - we actually sometimes earn our money.
Ouch! Yes, thats earning the money!
Just a question: couldnt you just replace the wheel with the flat? How much does a wheel weigh?
John.
Wheels are pressed onto the axle at around 105 tons of pressure. The bore of the wheel is actually .003" -.005" less than the axle diameter. Hence you'd have to replace the entire wheel set. That's about 1,400 Lbs for 2 wheels and 1,200 Lbs for the axle. Even if you could handle that weight in such tight space, in most tunnels there is insufficient clearance to jack the car high enough to drom the wheelset out.
Back in the old days we could install a device called 'Cauley Wheels'. They were 6" or 8" diameter wheels that locked onto the brake rigging. They held the B/O wheelset just off the rail and acted like the doughnut spare on your car. However, they were only mountable on cars with clasp brakes and I doubt that there are too many people anymore, who remember how to install them.
Just so you don't go quietly mad, I've seen 'em ... another of those experiences you just don't get anymore these days. And if I remember correctly from hanging out at Coney (only wheel shop still?) they had to heat the wheels until they were red before they'd go on the axles for a nice tight fit. Definitely not trackside activity. :)
We don't heat them any more. They are painted with a 50/50 mixture of white lead and linseed oil and then pressed together. Incidently, the AAR requires that a graph of the pressing pressure be made during the entire process. If the graph shows more than the allowable deviation in pressure - up or down, the press is no good and is tossed.
Wowsers ... that does it, I'm old and gray and in the way ... toto, beam me up. :)
Wow, I got outta there just in time! Ironically I saw a "D" train at 47-50 being held around 1:30pm. Must've been a mess. B, D, and Q going uptown were probably routed to the local tracks with a few B's and D's on 8th. The Q probably went down Broadway.
I wonder how could the D crew not notice this? Never heard of a locked-up wheel before. Man the Hippos are so slow the wheels don't turn! :-0
Look for the skid marks at Bway Lafayette, they are still there,
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
METROCARD MANIA BOOK - Fun With Used MetroCards!
This beautiful paperback book is published by Price Stern & Sloan. It includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. To order send $5 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
Last Fall when the MBTA raised fares, there was lots of talk about replacing the entire blue line fleet, and adding new cars to the orange line as well. The MBTA had said designs of these cars would be released shortly so a contract could be awarded to the lowest bidder, which MA law insists. Have any designs been made public yet? What is the overall status of this new car project? -Nick
As I understand it, the Blue Line cars went out to bid with 2 possible designs, an articulated and a standard slightly larger than existing cars. Also, there was an option on some Orange Line sized cars.
The bids are in and due to the complicated possibilities, they are being studied. So nothing has been announced. It appears that the T may be feeling the effects of the change in budget structure, as manpower is intentionally running short handed this summer. Also, the possibility of using 24 old Blue Line cars on the Orange has popped up again this week.
My guess is that the Blue will get its standard design cars, the Orange will end up with 24 old Blues. If NY's L CBTC works out, the Blue may get that too. Everything is subject to change, of course!
"The MBTA had said designs of these cars would be released shortly so a contract could be awarded to the lowest bidder, which MA law insists."
1. The MBTA A did NOT have to go with the lowest bid in either the case of the Bredas or in this case. Mass. and federal law allows for low-bid or competitive negotiation, which allows you to rank different proposals on both cost and design. however in the case of the bredas the board of directors decided that since breda bid far low than either Kinki-Sharyo's, Siemen's, or Bombardier's that the MBTA decided to buy from them. the new blue line cars will also be competitive negotiation and as such there is design until the contract is awardered.
much of the information in this post comes from the following USENET post.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=breda+bid&hl=en&lr=&group=ne.transportation&safe=off&scoring=d&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=20010501094457.18644.00003342%40ng-cg1.aol.com
Thank you for the info! -Nick
I don't know but the MBTA shoud get either buy CAF cars or Siemens
Really? Even if those manufacturers don't want to submit a proposal? Or if their proposal(s) [if submitted] are not the best technically qualified at an acceptable price, as judged by expert reviewers?
>>I don't know but the MBTA shoud get either buy CAF cars or Siemens.<<
How about Kawasaki. They have let the good times roll in Philly for 20 years now.
But do they make trains with pantographs?
>>But do they make trains with pantographs?<<
They'll build anything with everything if you want it. SEPTA's suburban K cars have pantographs and their city units have mountings on top of the roof.
Of course they do! They make bullet trains in Japan. Those definitely use pantographs.
'Oh, about 2nd Avenue subway'
GREETINGS:
As you know New York City has been working on one subway line since the year 1927 and has not completed yet.
That line is 2nd Avenue subway. As you may or may not have known New York City subway was once privately owned and developed, but after the ' Great Depression ' and during World War II the subway fell under city and state control.
In the face of rising inflation, in relationship to the need to conserve energy within the New York City Power Pool; private individuals and companies have golden opportunity for investment and the planning , and development of the 2nd Avenue subway. With growing uncertainty in stocks, in the fluctuation of projected profits in technologies issues on the Commodities Exchange a golden opportunity is at hand to take control of certain aspects of the development of the 2nd Avenue subway to improve the mass transit intrastructure of the city of New York and for the gains of municipal improvement, environmental conservation and capital investment in a new railroad.
In the past 25 years new technologies and mass transportation has arisen the New York City transit authority, and the Metropolitan Transit Authority has clearly not taken advantage of; but for what ever reason the New York City Transit Authority like any other state-run institution operates with the gradation of a state-run institution. What 2nd Avenue subway needs a new and innovative ideas from the private sector.
I'm looking for interested parties, persons or companies would be interested in participating in planning and investing of the 2nd Avenue subway, and ultimately the 2nd Avenue Railroad Company to build; (promised in 1967) the Co-Op City line, the return of the 3rd Avenue 'El' in the Bronx, and an innovation of the 9th Avenue 'El' to serve the North Bronx from the Polo grounds.
If you have any questions or for further information (in writing please refer to the R -203 project ' Design Team' )
email: Charr65014@AOL.Com
27-May-01:10:24:21 PM
Daily News story
Very nice.
Yes, thanks for the link to this timly article.
Now if they would only they would consider putting the rails back in going over the northern route of SI. Well, maybe someone will put it in the next budget for at least a study. I'll bet HBLR would be willing to consider extenting their line South to meet it.
Mr t__:^)
Very interesting article even mention of a "ballpark special" that bypasses St.George terminal right to the new station.
I wonder what the front roll signs will say ? Is there a SPECIAL designation on the sign ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes there is a " SPECIAL " on the front destination sign. and thats what they'll use.
Heard at the West Jersey Chapter NRHS meeting last night:
The DRPA is working on their 2 remaining bridge train cars in anticipation of using them in the 75th anniversary celebration of the Delaware River Bridge (now called the Ben Franklin Bridge) on July 1. It was stated that the PATCO shop is hoping to have them run over the bridge under their own power.
Bob
Are those the cars I see parked at the Fern Rock Yard?
Chuck Greene
No, the cars that DRPA owns are stored at the PATCO shop in Lindenwold.
The cars at Fern Rock are SEPTA's.
Thanks, Dan
Chuck Greene
Oh shoot. I meant to e-mail you about the May meeting. When is the next event?
I'm sure you would have enjoyed the meeting. The program was a PR presentation on the Acela. That's the bad part; the good part was that the presenter is not a PR man but a guy who worked his way up from trackworker to engine repair to engineer to road forman of engines to office job. He worked on the design of the Acela and traveled to Europe to try to get the best from the TGV, Eurostar, Swedish high-speed train (whose name escapes me), &c. He answered MANY questions after his presentation, with down-to-earth honest answers rather than PR BS. When asked about early problems with the wheels, he replied that the Acela is far heavier (for safety reasons) than anything in Europe, and the added weight necessitated stronger wheels. When asked about the 50 mph speed limit around Frankford Jct curve, he replied that the 45 mph speed limit is required by the signaling system, and that even though the Acela could easily take the curve at 70 mph, it will have to wait years for a new system to catch up.
When is the next event?
The is no June membership meeting. Instead, many Chapter members will participate in the PRSL Budd car 50th anniversary, part 2, on June 9. I expect to elaborate on that in a separate post. You should keep your West Jersey Rails Quarterly handy to refer to future events. The next meeting will be Sept 24. The next Quarterly should be mailed out in 2 to 3 weeks.
Bob
PATCO shop is hoping to have them run over the bridge under their own power.
As part of a special fantrip, or as a regular revenue service train?
--Mark
As part of a special fantrip, or as a regular revenue service train?
Not specified. This announcement was presented during the open forum part of the meeting by a meeting attendee, and therefore constitutes a rumor. It was "corroborated" by a second attendee.
Motor vehicle traffic over the bridge will be suspended for the celebration to allow pedestrians to walk on the main deck of the bridge, as occurred on its opening day 75 years ago. (I read this; I'm not THAT old).
Apparently the bridge will be closed to traffic from sunrise to 3 PM +/- for the celebration. (Keep in mind this is a Sunday so traffic will no doubt be starting to pick up by then.) The bridge will be open to walkers as it was on its opening day. I would imagine PATCO will be the preferred mode of return for those who walk one way and decide not to walk back. (For those who have never walked across the bridge on its walkways, it's a great view, but it's also a tough walk for those who aren't accustomed to climbing grades!)
The Bridge Line cars may not be 'shipshape' for passenger service. One has no seats (removed for work equipment, trash hauling, etc). Unless that's part of the refurbishment, it will be a nice ride but standing all the way.
There is an ex-Bridge car at Fern Rock (I believe it's 1020, one of those purchased from PATCO for Broad St Subway service). I'm not sure what its operational status is. It could easily be used on the Speed Line as a 'middle car' between 401 and 402 but getting it there might prove to be a little problematic since there is no track connection between Broad St and PATCO lines any more. The car would have to be trucked or moved by railroad.
We have DRPA Car 1009 at the trolley museum, which did a stint on the Broad Street Subway till 1968. It has had poles installed, but I've never seen it run. Usually it rests in Car Barn 2.
I believe 1009 and its brethren (with the exception of 1008, 1015 and 1023, which were kept by PATCO and are the work train) moved from the Bridge Line to Broad St in 1970, and remained there until 1983-85 whent the B-IV's took over.
Sorry, it was 1013 (not 1023), and this one was scrapped several years back.
Oops, got my dates mixed-up. Meant to say "did a stint on the Broad Street Subway till 1984." It ran on the bridge line till 1968 when it closed.
KP
Just heard today that the 2 remaining Bridge Line cars have been repainted by PATCO. They are inoperable without help (although rumor has it that the motors are to be replaced). They are also without seats, so if they do indeed run on the 7/1 anniversary of the Ben Franklin, they will probably need to be pulled by the work motor and they will not carry passengers (for amusement only?). Apparently they have already taken at least one jaunt along the line this way recently.
Minor point - even though the Bridge is 75 years old, the Bridge Line started running 10 years after the Bridge opened, so it's only celebrating 65 years of service.
But since parts are hard to come by, and since nobody but diehard railfans pay attention to the underfloor equipment, then I suggest installing The GE SCM cam controllers (modified for the old motors), install a modern master controller (but hide it in the original housing) and other necessary equipment, never electronic choppers (even though I like them, but since they make that buzzing noise, they would sound too modern). Plus since dynamic braking is mandatory on The BFB, install a grid pod as well. As far as the motors being replaced, I've heard that they were being rewound.
Hello, there. Can anyone please tell me which service(s) ran through the Connector, on Memorial Day, between the hoursof5Aand 10P? It is hard to discern from the service notices. Thanks.
Normal Service, line served by 63rd St Shuttle operating Queensbridge to 34th St Broadway.
-Stef
In that case, was the 57-6Av. Station open during this time?
A little too late, but anyway, why couldn't the MTA put tracks back into the unused tunnel from the North side Manhattan Bridge to the Broadway Express tracks for the N or Q trains to maintain Broadway Express service during the South side reconstruction?? From what you can see from Manhattan Bound trains coming off the bridge, the tunnel looks like it still goes through to the Canal Street station!!
Tony
This issue was considered by MTA. Providing a connection for North-to-South side connections on the bridge can only be accomplished by an expensive project underground in Manhattan, or by putting tracks across the lower roadway on the bridge itself. Both are infeasible right now. I wrote to the MTA in particular to ask about an RR crossing gate and crosstrack on the bridge and the MTA replied that the bridge, structurally, could not support that kind of operation.
Because its the NORTH side that's being redone, not the south. The south side originally went to the Nassau street loop, and the north side went to the Canal Street Bridge Station. After the Chrystie Street connection was in place, the south side tracks were diverted to the Canal Street bridge station, and the North side went to Chrystie Street. There is no connection between the south side tracks and Chrystie street, which is why Grand Street is being closed during reconstruction.
The south side tracks were recently renovated (It took about 13 years!!!), which is why the express tracks on the BMT Broadway line will once again open.
The trackplan you suggest would essentially create a wye at the north end of the A/B tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. I believe the idea was discussed at one point but dismissed for 2 reasons.
The first reason is that the TA frowns on that track configuration with one M/Line track crossing another. Currently, I believe the only other such X-ing is the junction of the M & J/Z lines. Clearly the TA did not want to invest in the interlocking plant & signals necessary to make such a track arrangement work.
The second reason was simpler to see. If you run the B, Q, and D now and you add the N and maybe the M, you'd clearly exceed the 30 TPH maximum that the bridge could handle. Hence where would be the utility?
Isn't the junction of the 2 and 3 just south of 145th street a similar mainline crossover?
One could also say that the Flatbush branch on the 2/3/4/5 in Brooklyn would also qualify ... but what happens on A division as business as usual might not fly with the B division. Double crossovers stop traffic in both directions though so I can see it being a problem, especially if a signal fails.
Todd, 142 Junction is indeed mainline crossing mainline - a southbound 2 forces a northbound 3 to wait behind X60 Ball.
Selkirk, Nostrand Junction is just poorly laid out - the northbound and southbound trains don't interfere with each other. However, southbounds leaving Franklin on either 1 or 2 Track and heading to Flatbush get in each other's way, as do northbounds going to Franklin (every Monday am, I leave Flat four minutes early, right behind a 5. He waits at President for a 4 to go in front, then I wait for a 3 to do the same. By the time I get to Nevins, I'm already two minutes late).
Howdy ... once upon a distant time, prior to working for the TA (first job in fact), I used to ride the 4 train out to the Nostrand stop there (Beverley) ... I remember that crossing but of course prior to really caring about how things work at the time, I remember being held going out to Flatbush ... guess it wasn't as bad as the other but I remember the crossing wondering why it wasn't the usual flyovers. Then again it *was* the IRT. :)
Double crossovers stop traffic in both directions though so I can see it being a problem,...
Not if the schedules are properly designed and carried out. They cause no delays and do not reduce track capacity one bit.
The delays that are experienced at both Myrtle/Bway and at 142nd St are a consequence of TA operational skill and not the track layout.
Asked and answered. :)
I never get over to the IRT. My passport isn't good for 'enemy' territory.
Is there a barricade at your yards? If I remember, the Jerome and Concourse share the same yard ... just different parts ... right?
Jerome yard is located north of Concourse yard, and has a special access ramp from the 4 mainline to get to Concourse. No B division cars can go to Jerome yard, but A division cars are routinely taken to Concourse to use the wash tracks and the maintenance building.
Ah ... OK ... When I worked the D train, I worked it from the other end. I lived in the Bronx (*at* 205th no less) and would take my break at Bedford but I signed in and out at Coney. Been to the Concourse yards with layups but never spent a whole lot of time there. But I did see redbird running through and just assumed that they were contiguous rather than separated out (much like 207th St) each with their own leads but otherwise shared facilities ... thanks for the straightening out.
A division had better grant TD a passport or those cars might go to the fishes early. :)
So IRT and IND tracks use the same third rail arrangement?
There is maybe an inch worth of height difference (used to be at least if not today) and the trip cocks are on different sides of the car, but yes, you can move equipment on either line provided the clearances are there as far as the tunnels go - it's much easier to move A division (IRT) on B division track (IND/BMT) but it IS possible in SOME areas to move B division on A division track until you hit a clearance problem (platform edges, tunnel walls, etc) ...
But work rules require that when IRT cars are being moved on BMT/IND track, they usually wrap the train with a single from BMT/IND at each end to ensure that trippers work properly and a few other considerations. My guess is that none of this has changed since I was there in the early 70's ...
There are no more IND/BMT singles in service in the system; now, when they have to move IRT cars on B division trackage, they either use the R-127/R-133 (134?) work motors or the R-33 singles from the Corona fleet (usually used only on moves to or from the 7), both of which have dual tripcocks.
subfan
Damn! Are no rituals safe anymore?
On a side note, a couple of months ago, I managed to be embarassed by mentioning the occasional sightings of mixed consists. Turns out I ended up in a bar in Albany with a few Amtrak buddies and one of them was a motorman for the TA from 1963 to 1969 before going over to PC. He *CONFIRMED* that there were a number of instances during car shortages of mixed consists and that he piloted one that resulted in a 12-9 on the A train in 1969. They HAD been mixing R14's and R10s for a brief while and that incident ended the practice. However, it was still done from time to time on the Jamaica el ... get this ... Q cars mixed in ... things were that tight for a four month period in 1969 that it was tried, failed miserably and was discontinued for safety reasons. But they DID do it and lived to regret the decision.
Well, you can't blame them for trying. It has been said that failure is the tuition you pay to achieve success.
Well, at least the R-14s blended in with the R-10s from a stylistic point of view. I heard a story of an R-10 thrown into an R-12/14 consist once during a deadhead maneuver. The train was running on the middle track of an IRT line and all went well until they got to an express station. Needless to say, there were a lot of crunching sounds.
Heh. Yeah, six inches on either side can make a good bit of difference. :)
Kev, that almost sounds like a personal problem.....:-D
DAMN! Ya know? You're ONTO something there ... maybe if we give the redbirds some VIAGRA! Woohoo! :)
LOL
I don't know if that may be what I was referring to. But from what I heard, it didn't go that far (perhaps stopped on the ramp). Remember, a B div. car may encounter signals and other obstacles long before it reaches the first exp. station.
But if it did go that far, I wish someone could do it again and take pictures.
At the very least, someone got written up, I'm sure.
Wouldn't someone have noticed when they tried to set the rollsigns?
>but it IS possible in SOME areas to move B division on A division track until you hit a clearance problem (platform edges, tunnel walls, etc) ...
I always wondered how far you could go with B div. equipment don the A div. at the connection points. This especially after hearing about someone bringing a consist with R-10 cars on the ends (used to move the IRT cars through the B div.) up the ramp at Concourse, only to be stopped by a tower operator. Also I heard a rumor about a test with an R-16 on the Pelham express track, that wasn't successful (this was for the idea of converting it to B div. upon connection to 2nd Av.)
You would think you could bring B div cars:
down the middle track just short of Burnside, or to the Jerome yard.
up the ramp from 207th, all the way up Broadway to the 240th St yard.
from the L to Linden yard, then to the Junius st middle (diesel locomotive required as there is no 3rd rail.)
I wished they would do this just to take pictures for the sensation of the sight.
Bu I heard there are other obstacles such as signals being placed too close to the rails. Perhaps through-spans also. I'm sure on the old Bway line (Original IRT contract line), the tracks may be too close to each other for safe passage. The dual contract Jerome, Livonia and Pelham line should be built to convertable standards, though. Still, the R-16 couldn't clear something.
One of the many legacies of a "dual system" that became a "unified system" 60 years ago and YET, not much "unification" done in all these years. Of course refitting the IRT routes would be a mammoth undertaking that we'll never see happen. The IRT/BMT situation in Queens is unique in that the A division cars simply go up the Astoria line where they can have B division equipment easily wrapped around them in a number of places and I *believe* (not guaranteed to be factual) that they can run the B division cars a few hundred feet up the Flushing line from QBP if they need to. Not very far though.
But no, you won't get far with Bdivision cars on the IRT ... not without "taking out" a whole lot of stuff. :)
Well, only the original Contract One portions would be prohibitively expensive to rework. All of the Dual Contracts lines were built to BMT specs and modification would be simpler.
Not all the Dual Contracts lines were built to BRT clearances. The Upper Lexington Avenue IRT is a good example.
However, I do know that the White Plains Road IRT El structure WAS built originally to BRT clearances.
We wash and cut the wheels on the little fellas.
Heh. You might need to sharpen your negotiating skills then. If you're letting those foul beasts do the soapy thang in your quarters, the least they can do is issue you travelling papers to avoid them snipers on the Jerome ramp. :)
Oh. We can probably get you a tourist visa. But it's single entry only.
If the city wins one of those big Powerball lotteries, or finds the funding money some other way, I'd like to see them build a new underground tunnel paralell to the Manny B and hook both the B'way and Sixth Ave. lines up to it, but at the same time keep both of the inside tracks on the Manny B open, and also hook both lines up to those (which would take a three-level flying junction to accomplish).
Brooklyn-bound trains would use the current Manhattan-bound H track, while the Manhattan-bound trains would use the track current being used by the Brooklyn-bound B/D/Q. At the Brooklyn end, the tracks could be repositioned to feed into and out of the current DeKalb bridge tracks, while the two open tracks would be used to feed trains from the new tunnel.
That would both balance out service on both sides of the Manny B and reduce the stress, and allow the bridge not to be used at all during off-hours, since the TPH late at night or on weekends is low enough so they could all fit into the new tunnel. The unused outside tracks on the Manny B could then be converted into wider pedestrian walkways and/or bicycle and roller skate paths.
Of course, I would also like to see the new tunnel be a bi-level one, so that the LIRR could be extended from Flatbush Ave. to Lower Manhattan around Fulton and Water streets. That would require a even more new money, but on the positive side, might actually get the support of Nassau and Suffolk County riders seeking an easier trip to their jobs downtown.
The second reason was simpler to see. If you run the B, Q, and D now and you add the N and maybe the M, you'd clearly exceed the 30 TPH maximum that the bridge could handle. Hence where would be the utility?
Well, even without using the (N), the (Q) could have remained a Broadway express.
How would they have run the (M) on that track alignment?
:-) Andrew
The first reason is that the TA frowns on that track configuration...the TA did not want to invest in the interlocking plant & signals necessary to make such a track arrangement work.
This addition would have come out of the funds allocated for the Manhattan Bridge rehabilition. It would not have cost the TA anything. The NY State officials objected because monies not spent on this connection could and were diverted to fast tracking road projects upstate.
This configuration does not affect track capacity one bit. Its management requires a more skill than the TA appears capable of exhibiting.
If you run the B, Q, and D now and you add the N and maybe the M, you'd clearly exceed the 30 TPH maximum that the bridge could handle...
The plan would have been used during non-rush hours. Minimum non-rush hour headways are currently 10 minutes on each of these lines. This translates to 6 tph. All five lines could have used the bridge and stayed withing the bridge's 30 tph limit.
where would be the utility?
This connection would not have been pulled up after the bridge rehab is completed. At the very least it would provide additional flexibility for emergencies.
It would also have saved midtown riders 5 minutes travel time.
The utility would be a slim to zero impact on the proposed summer flip.
As I suggested many times before on this board, a simple 400' (estimated) non-flying junction track connection between the North and South Side of the bridge, at either the Brooklyn or Manhattan side, is workable. It would involve a minimum of construction, and would enable "N" trains during the weekends to use the south side tracks. "N" trains would still use the tunnel weekdays so a bottleneck could be avoided at the junction.
IND 6th Avenue services could continue to be routed in the present way, just the bridge crossing would be diverted from the North to the South side.
The recent thread about HEETs and Booth closings prompted these observations and questions from my travels yesterday:
The south entrance (on 34th Ave.) at the Steinway Street stop (Queens IND) is open in the morning rush, but closed for the evening rush. Late nights the whole entrance closes. The problem is that closing the booth for the pm rush eliminates 3 turnstiles through which one can enter or exit. You're left with 2 HEETs and one HEOT (?High Exit Only Turnstile). So, when I am travelling back into the city in the evening and a train arrives in either direction, I have to wait for the hoards to exit before I can use one of the 2 HEETs, and I miss the train. The fact that 49 times out of 50 one of the 2 HEETs is out-of-order doesn't help either. This is a minor inconvenience which installation of a couple more HEETs would solve.
(Another strange phenomenon about this entrance is the plethora of metrocards that always seem to litter the floor. I remember having to discard an expired card one time, so I attempeted to use the little box on the side of the "Metrocard Reader." The box was overflowing and cards littered the floor. I simply wedged my used card into a crack and went on my way. I'm sure this isn't the only station where they forget to empty that box.)
This also reminds me: Yesterday I exited the downtown No. 6 train at Bleecker Street and actually used the Bleeker Street exit, which still has much of the original IRT decor (round columns, embossed designs on the ceiling, etc.), though aged and dirty. The TA has made this a HEET only entrance. There is black-painted plywood where the token booth used to be. It reminded me of a ghost town. I think the main entrance was moved south to coincide with the Broadway-Lafayette IND connection there.
This furhter reminds me: A few minutes later, I had occasion to enter the IND W4 complex. This station has entrances on Waverly and W3 streets, but none on West Fourth Street itself. Odd. Were there ever entrances/exits on West 4th Street at all?
This furhter reminds me: A few minutes later, I had occasion to enter the IND W4 complex. This station has entrances on Waverly and W3 streets, but none on West Fourth Street itself. Odd. Were there ever entrances/exits on West 4th Street at all?
I believe so, but they've been closed for many years.
I was just there today again, and I noticed there are also entrances to the W4 complex on West 8th Street--like they went out of their way to avoid putting steps up to the street for which the station is named...
According to the 8th Ave. line's guide, "The station, which doesn't actually have an exit to 4th St., is so-called to differentiate it from the planned IND second system South 4th St. station/line in Brooklyn."
Which brings up the logical question of why the IND didn't just call it West 3rd or Waverly, which would be even less likely to get confused with a South 4th. Go figure....
A simpler name would've been just "Washington Square".
West 4th is a more prominent street than West 3rd, Waverly or even West Washington Place. At one time, people would enter fare control in the middle mezzanine from street stairways. This meant that people riding on 8th Avenue would have to go down and then up again.
While riding an R142 (or is it a 142A on the Westside IRT), I noticed that there is a handle in the space between the inside and outside panes of each of the windows next to the end doors. Does anyone know what these are for? The R142 (or 142As) on the Lex don't have them.
I don't know but R142 is on the 2, 142A on the 6.
The Lexington 142As do indeed have these handles, but they're much smaller and less noticable, not being painted red.
Dan
Really? I looked for them and didn't see them. Anyway, what are they for?
Have any cars been retired due to R142 and R143 deliveries? If so can somebody list their numbers?
All IRT redbirds will be retired once the entire R142/142A fleet is in place. That means the end of the line for the R26, R29, R33, and R36--the latter two of which includes both "Mainline" and "World's Fair" variety.
I don't think the intention was to retire anything with the R143 order. Basically they are intended to increase the ammount of rolling stock available to the IND/BMT.
The R160 order is comming in a few years. That will mean the retirement of a handful of R32s, and all R38, R40, and R42. The rumor here is that there will be an R160A order that will mean retirement for the R44 as well.
:) Andrew
That rumor about the R160A is true. They will replace all of the R44s. The R32s that will not be retiring will go out for second overhauls along with the R46s.
"The R32s that will not be retiring will go out for second overhauls along with the R46s."
I hope that the R46 has their LCD signs replaced with the clearer LED signs like the R142 has. As for the R32, the car is too old for digital signs, so I hope they will keep roll signs there. But please get rid of that horrible dot matrix bulkhead that was put on during the last overhaul of the 32s! -Nick
I supose it's too much to expect for the R46 to get its rollsigns back.
:-) Andrew
Sorry, but nothing Vernon wrote has been substantiated. At this point, these are just stories that are floating around SubTalk, and because enough people have commented on them, they're perceived to be true.
David
This is what i heard.
And that's the problem, and it's been discussed before on this Board.
What happens is, someone in a crew room somewhere will:
a. Wish aloud that something WOULD happen
b. Wish aloud that something WOULDN'T happen
c. Try to impress his/her colleagues with the scope of his/her knowledge and/or the importance of his/her "friends in management" by saying that something would or wouldn't happen, without its having the slightest basis in fact, but with such conviction that it's believed.
Next thing you know, it's all over the system and out among the buffs.
David
R143 order will ease the current car shortage in the B divsion. No B division cars would be retired because of this order.
Perhaps 9540 and 9541 can be the first ones to be replaced by new cars. I feel the Westinghouse R36s are by far the worst performers, still using their original variable load valves and A1 operating brake equipment and worn overhauls. My guess is tha TA will start scrapping cars before they have enough good cars for storage. As of yet, none have gone into storage tracks made available by the cleaning out of scrap cars retired generations ago. BTW, it appears the Q cars have been moved from the SBK yard. They can be seen from a Northbound B just before the sharp curve entering the 4th Avenue corridor or perhaps the side window of a southbound.
The following is DIRECTLY from the TA's website:
The 2000-2004 Capital Program
New York City Transit allocates $1.993 billion to purchase 1,130 new subway cars, not only replacing 927 existing subway cars but expanding the fleet by 203 cars. Coupled with the subway cars ordered in the 1995-1999 Capital Program, 415 cars will be added to the fleet (a seven percent increase) to support ridership increases resulting from the MTAs fare initiatives.
The A division fleet purchase of 320 cars ($487 million) will complete the normal replacement of the remaining pre-stainless steel cars, nicknamed the Redbird cars. In addition, the A division fleet will be expanded with the purchase of 150 cars ($229 million) to accommodate ridership growth and to extend the length of certain trains from nine cars to ten cars.
The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate ridership growth.
The A division purchase appears to be the option on the R-142 contracts. However, I still have a problem with the TA's math. There are 660 cars to replace the R-40S/M R-42 and R-38/R-32GE. If you have noticed, The R-40S/M is roughly 400 cars (initially it was.) The R-42 is another 400. R-38 is 198 and R-32GE is 10. Let's assume that 10 R-40S/m were lost, and 10 R-42. This comes to 988. 660 does not equal 988. Then, let's add the R-160A contract that people say is definately true (but not on the MTA page). That's another 330. So now we have 990 R-160's. Just enough. But, then you have to throw in the R-44's, which are something like 280 cars (probably more). So, can anyone here say anything about these contracts? Unless the TA has created some shop where they are magically multiplying cars, the numbers posted here on this site and on the TA's site DO NOT add up. Unless they are only retiring 607 R-38/R-32GE/R-40/R-40M/R-42.
There it is people.
The IRT is being short-changed. 150 extra cars is fine, but if some are to be given to the #3 to expand consists, there is not much left over to expand service on the East Side or Flushing lines.
I think they ought to start cherry-picking 200 Redbirds to be stored for a rainy day.
Here's how to get to/near 607 cars:
R-42: 110 Coney Island rebuilds
R-40: 294
R-38: 196
R-32: 10 General Electric rebuilds
TOTAL: 610
How's that?
David
OK. That leaves about 100 R40M and 290 R42.
What length of new track will be opened when trains continue past 21St/Queensbridge?
None. It's already open. You can ride it nearly every night and most weekend days too due to General Orders (diversions). See the NYCT Web site service notices for specifics.
I think the extension was around 500 feet. Figure that cost per foot out...
When did the extension first carry passengers and has a date been set
for regular service?
>>When did the extension first carry passengers<<
Around 1990 (I think. I was 5 then)
>>has a date been set
for regular service?<<
Nope. Maybe this week.
The 63rd St line opened to service in 1989, going as far as 21 St-Queensbridge.
Since the Greenpoint-MTA compromise was just reached, look for full-time service to begin probably in November (someone correct me here if I'm wrong).
Around 1990 (I think. I was 5 then)
October 29, 1989.
The 63rd St/Queens Blvd connections is more than 500 feet, but I think it is just shy of a mile.
:-) Andrew
The 63rd St line, in toto, stretches from 57th/6th Av to just west of 33rd St in Queens, running under 63rd St, the East River, and 41rst Av in Queens. I think that's close to three miles. In addition, there is an LIRR tunnel underneath it (with no tracks or signals installed yet) which begins at 2nd Av/63rd St. The Connector portion is 1500 feet long. Total cost for the entire line (including the Connector) was $1.5 billion.
The Connector, which cost $645 million of that $1.5 billion, included:
1) 1500 feet of double-deck tunnel (the LIRR lower-level tunnel was extended as well, to the edge of Northern Blvd.)
2) Rebuilding the entire 63rd St line to include crossover tracks between the stations; rebuilding portions of trackbed, tunnel, signalling etc.
3) Building a pair of ramps and widening the Queens Blvd. corridor to 6 tracks at the point where the ramps come in.
4) Installing switches and new signalling to connect the 41rst Av ramps to both local and express tracks.
The LIAR is now currently going to recieve 4 F40's, numbers 315, 320, 391, and 400. There is some concern regarding 3rd rail clearance in Metro-North's territory so they might need some modifacations to the snowplow.
Locomotives are like cars they break down like cars they have a key to turn it on like cars and it sounds like a car!
I was wondering about the name of the Van Siclen Ave. stations in Brooklyn. I notice that the name of these stations was once spelled with a "k" - Van Sicklen Ave., but was changed at some point to the current spelling of Van Siclen Ave..
According to the maps and schedules on the site bmt-lines.com, this change must have occurred some time between 1925 and 1930, since a 1925 service guide shows both the #15 Jamaica line and the #13 Fulton St. line with stops at Van Sicklen Ave., and a 1930 guide shows both lines stopping at Van Siclen Ave..
I had assumed that the change in spelling must've had something to do with removing potential confusion with the Van Sicklen (Neptune Ave.) stop on the Culver line. (This stop was called simply "Van Sicklen", and not "Van Sicklen St.", correct?)
However, I then noticed something strange regarding the Culver stop -- in the 1925 guide, it is spelled Van Siclen, with no "k"!
This beautiful 1924 BMT map shows that state of affairs:
The name of the Culver stop is then spelled with the "k" in the 1930 guide, the one which shows the stops on the Jamaica and Fulton St. lines without the "k".
To make matters even more curious, it appears that, at one time, the "Van Sicklen" spelling was used for the stop on the Culver line as well as for the stops on the Jamaica and Fulton St. lines, as this 1911 BRT map illustrates.
So, to summarize:
Jamaica and Fulton St. lines Culver line
1911 Van Sicklen Ave. Van Sicklen
1925 Van Sicklen Ave. Van Siclen
1930 Van Siclen Ave. Van Sicklen
Does anyone know the history behind this? Did the City actually change the spelling of Van Siclen Ave. itself? Or, was it simply a matter of the BMT changing the spelling of the station names? (After all, the BMT are the guys who gave us a station called "Elderts Lane" located on Eldert (no "s") La.)
And, what about that "Van Sicklen" stop on the Culver line? Did the Van Sicklen St. that today runs parallel to McDonald Ave. in Gravesend once extend all the way down to Neptune Ave.?
Ferdinand Cesarano
(After all, the BMT are the guys who gave us a station called "Elderts Lane" located on Eldert (no "s") La.)
I don't know the answer to the Van Sic(k)len question, but on some early 20th century street maps I've seen, it's Elderts (or, probably, Eldert's) Lane. Perhaps the BMT was right, but the DOT or the Borough President's office screwed up somewhere along the way :).
I belonged to a church many years ago that was on Eldert[s] lane and Etna Street, built l909. Some of their old stationery showed the address as "Eldert's" lane, so the BMT spelling would have been in the possessive form.
On the Culver line scene I wondered if there were a street by the name Van Sicklen there or just an area as rare for the New York system but common elsewhere there was no street, ave., etc designation.
That area of Brooklyn was once owned by the Van Sicklen family ....
--Mark
There have been threads, here and/or on nyc.transit about Van Siclen/Van Sicklen and the two stations.
The best I can contribute "off the top" is that there is no relationship between names of the station on the Broadway/Lex/Jamaica and the station on the Culver Line.
But notable about the station names is that the J Line station is named after a street, while the F Line station is named after the popular Van Sicklen Hotel that was once near the station. Any street named "Van Sicklen" near the F Line stop is coincidental and was probably also named for the hotel, as was the station.
As to the use or nonuse of the "k", I'm not certain if this is very significant or not. Names get changed, formally and informally, misspelled at various times, and so on. Compare "Beverley/Beverly Road" stations. Go out on Long Island and look at (for one of dozens of examples) the spelling of Commack, Comack, Comak on different street signs on the two roads bearing that name.
Wonder if the publicized misspelling of Bleec(k)er has any significance?
Arti
has anybody seen it? read it
Redbirds Reach End Of The Track
No Queens Future In Sight For #7s
By RICHARD SCHACK
As the "redbird" subway cars on the #7 line approach their last ride at the end of this year, there are no plans to keep any of the historic cars in Queens and the future of the train that helped to build Queens past is still undecided, the Tribune has learned.
The #7 was dubbed the "International Express" by this publication from the Queens Council on the Arts.
For nearly a century, the cars have served as the backbone for developing neighborhoods in this borough since the days of the 1964 Worlds Fair. Dan Andrews, spokesperson for Borough President Claire Shulman, said, "Theyve served us well, but its time to move on." New, high-tech silver subway cars the beginning of 2002.
However, Queens historians were at a loss to tell the Tribune of a plan to preserve a piece of that history. The Queens Council on the Arts, which dubbed the train "The International Express" in a special publication dedicated to the #7 line had no comment on the future of the cars. The Queens Historical Society also had no comment about plans to preserve any of the historic cars.
And according to Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) spokesperson Deidre Parker, the only idea being batted around right now is to use an estimated 1,300 "redbird" cars as an artificial habitat for fish at the bottom of the ocean off coasts across the country.
Environmentalists have criticized the plan and some states have rejected it, but it is "still under consideration," Parker told the Tribune. Some will be used as MTA work cars, Parker added, and one could end up in the New York Transit Museum in Brooklyn.
George Haikalis, transportation consultant for the watchdog group called the Committee for Better Transit, said the cars should be put to better use. "Not only have they [the redbirds] been around much longer than anyone thought they would, but they still work well and have a good track record," said Haikalis. "They could still be used along with the new cars.
Andrews added, "We would like to see the car get some recognition, and the Transit Museum would be a good place for it," although he added it is up to the MTA.
Parker said the museum would have to make a request and that only a part of the car would go in the museum because, "obviously, an entire redbird wouldnt fit."
Regarding if there would be any way to preserve a car in its home borough of Queens, Parker confirmed that there are no plans as of yet, although "nothing is out of the question."
"Only a part of a Redbird would fit?" Obvioulsy Parker has never been to the Transit Museum. As I recall there's already an entire one there.
Heh. Sounds like a whiz test in the making.
Maybe she's referring to the space currently available :) ? "For nearly a century, the cars have served...since the days of the 1964 Worlds Fair" is an equally mysterious line.
BTW, the article appears in this week's Queens Tribune, along with an accompanyting Commentary by the editor(s).
they say they ae giving the 7 new, "state of the art cars" but they are giving us the r62's not the 142's
Maybe they're comparing the r62s to the Redbirds...? OK, maybe it's just an error, or TA changed its mind.
Leave it to reporters to get it all butt-ways. The line itself I believe wasn't in service until the WWI period, and the cars there now are second generation; as already stated the l964 World's Fair was when they came about. Kind of a contradiction right in the newspaper story.
I'd guess the Transit Museum scenario would mean not the whole pair, as another poster has said they have no more room for more cars, I would guess.
There's always the thought of putting a pair in a park, like Flushing Meadow perhaps but sadly most rail equipment that's been put on display got heavily vandalized. Even in little Harlowton, MT, population about 1200, the Milwaukee boxcab that was right on the main drag in town had only one piece of glass left by the time the idiots gave up breaking things.
I'm suprised Millionaires (or wealthy people) don't buy the scrapped subway cars. I know if I had a Million and mansion I'd be taking several pairs of discarded subway cars and fixing them up.
I'd even have a small stretch of track (w elecrified 3rd rail) I'd store them and run them on. Those redbirds that will be scrapped could still run, and would, and I can operate them whenever I want.
I'm suprised no wealthy people have bought subway or rail cars. Well I guess it just goes to show you how insane I am. :-0
Make me wealthy and I'll be HAPPY to take some in ... there's even 8 miles of abandoned track (almost a CPW DASH) they could run on. If only I had the bucks. :)
>>I'm suprised no wealthy people have bought subway or rail cars. Well I guess it just goes to show you how insane I am. :-0<<
I guess I'm insane too. I was hoping that I would hit The Powerball and buy an old farm, run tracks with third rail out of the barn, and buy and restore 4 Almond Joy cars myself. If you're insane, then everybody on Sub Talk would have a nice room with rubber wallpaper at Bellvue, because that's everybody's Sub talk pipe dream: to buy a couple of their favorite subway cars.
I believe the Hudson Valley Psychiatric Center *is* being outfitted with a two track, third-rail powered line with two R9's and two redbirds in order to attract new customers to their facility. WATCH OUT, guys. :)
I'm satisfied with my S gage scratch built models. Don't need much room and cost a lot less to run! Besides that I have 7 trains of them. Leave me some better reasons to get into the rubber room. Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk.
Well, what do you expect of an article which also states, For nearly a century, the cars have served as the backbone for developing neighborhoods in this borough since the days of the 1964 Worlds Fair. Huh? :)
--Mark
If the people in Queens feel warmly toward the R33/36s, fine, but they don't seem to me to be uniquely part of Queens history.
The Queens "Redbirds" are unique only in their picture windows, as compared to other similar equipment. They were the last of thousands of cars on both divisions which were ground out like sausages from Reginald Welch's boring and backward looking designs. They were the third generation of IRT equipment on the line.
If you want cars more unique to the Flushing Line you would have to look to the BMT Qs in their original livery, to the 50 IRT 1939 WF cars, or to the R12/14/15s, which were the mainstay of the line until 1964.
At least if you want to preserve some of these as uniquely "Queens" cars, repaint them in their original two-tone blue, which might make people wonder why they're being called REDbirds.
( I didn't mention Steinways, cause you'd kinda have to look underneath to see what made them unique. )
So long as 9306 is stillo around, there will always be one car in the museum fleet with the original World's Fair Redbird color scheme and design. And as the last carbon steel bodied cars the TA bought, combined with the picture windows that remain standard today, they do have some historical significance as a transition design, especially if paired with an R-32 car that began the use of stainless steel on the system.
"Only a part of a Redbird would fit?" Obvioulsy Parker has never been to the Transit Museum. As I recall there's already an entire one there.
Heh. Sounds like a whiz test in the making.
Maybe she's referring to the space currently available :) ? "For nearly a century, the cars have served...since the days of the 1964 Worlds Fair" is an equally mysterious line.
BTW, the article appears in this week's Queens Tribune, along with an accompanyting Commentary by the editor(s).
they say they ae giving the 7 new, "state of the art cars" but they are giving us the r62's not the 142's
Maybe they're comparing the r62s to the Redbirds...? OK, maybe it's just an error, or TA changed its mind.
Leave it to reporters to get it all butt-ways. The line itself I believe wasn't in service until the WWI period, and the cars there now are second generation; as already stated the l964 World's Fair was when they came about. Kind of a contradiction right in the newspaper story.
I'd guess the Transit Museum scenario would mean not the whole pair, as another poster has said they have no more room for more cars, I would guess.
There's always the thought of putting a pair in a park, like Flushing Meadow perhaps but sadly most rail equipment that's been put on display got heavily vandalized. Even in little Harlowton, MT, population about 1200, the Milwaukee boxcab that was right on the main drag in town had only one piece of glass left by the time the idiots gave up breaking things.
I'm suprised Millionaires (or wealthy people) don't buy the scrapped subway cars. I know if I had a Million and mansion I'd be taking several pairs of discarded subway cars and fixing them up.
I'd even have a small stretch of track (w elecrified 3rd rail) I'd store them and run them on. Those redbirds that will be scrapped could still run, and would, and I can operate them whenever I want.
I'm suprised no wealthy people have bought subway or rail cars. Well I guess it just goes to show you how insane I am. :-0
Make me wealthy and I'll be HAPPY to take some in ... there's even 8 miles of abandoned track (almost a CPW DASH) they could run on. If only I had the bucks. :)
>>I'm suprised no wealthy people have bought subway or rail cars. Well I guess it just goes to show you how insane I am. :-0<<
I guess I'm insane too. I was hoping that I would hit The Powerball and buy an old farm, run tracks with third rail out of the barn, and buy and restore 4 Almond Joy cars myself. If you're insane, then everybody on Sub Talk would have a nice room with rubber wallpaper at Bellvue, because that's everybody's Sub talk pipe dream: to buy a couple of their favorite subway cars.
I believe the Hudson Valley Psychiatric Center *is* being outfitted with a two track, third-rail powered line with two R9's and two redbirds in order to attract new customers to their facility. WATCH OUT, guys. :)
I'm satisfied with my S gage scratch built models. Don't need much room and cost a lot less to run! Besides that I have 7 trains of them. Leave me some better reasons to get into the rubber room. Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk.
Well, what do you expect of an article which also states, For nearly a century, the cars have served as the backbone for developing neighborhoods in this borough since the days of the 1964 Worlds Fair. Huh? :)
--Mark
If the people in Queens feel warmly toward the R33/36s, fine, but they don't seem to me to be uniquely part of Queens history.
The Queens "Redbirds" are unique only in their picture windows, as compared to other similar equipment. They were the last of thousands of cars on both divisions which were ground out like sausages from Reginald Welch's boring and backward looking designs. They were the third generation of IRT equipment on the line.
If you want cars more unique to the Flushing Line you would have to look to the BMT Qs in their original livery, to the 50 IRT 1939 WF cars, or to the R12/14/15s, which were the mainstay of the line until 1964.
At least if you want to preserve some of these as uniquely "Queens" cars, repaint them in their original two-tone blue, which might make people wonder why they're being called REDbirds.
( I didn't mention Steinways, cause you'd kinda have to look underneath to see what made them unique. )
So long as 9306 is stillo around, there will always be one car in the museum fleet with the original World's Fair Redbird color scheme and design. And as the last carbon steel bodied cars the TA bought, combined with the picture windows that remain standard today, they do have some historical significance as a transition design, especially if paired with an R-32 car that began the use of stainless steel on the system.
I normally don't pay attention to the T/O operating the train, but I was standing next to the cab the other day and saw him running the train in manual.
When he was braking and almost about to stop, he put the lever all the way to the bottom position, left it there, and walked over to the other side of the cab to open the doors, while the trian was still moving, and the train stopped normally. I always assumed that the T/O had to hold down the lever the whole time while braking, like braking in a car. Can this be done on NYC trains, or is this something that can only be done on subways with ATO? Or is it just a MARTA thing?
It can't be done on NYC trains, that's for sure. Taking a hand off the dead man's handle before stopping completley would be very uncomfortable for the passengers...
yo jon... it's Roy. i finally got a handle... send me a email. I was on an F train that had it's emergency brake applied, and i have to say, the force felt quite weak, even though the train was going about 15. Conversely, i was on a 4 train in 14th st. which was tripped by a signal. The train was moving at 3 mph, yet when the emergency kicked in, i flew halfway down the car. and i was seated too.
Roy
Hey Roy! Nice to see ya here.
I haven't been on the site for a few days. Is this your first post? Whatever. You can really learn a lot from these guys.
I'll mail you later...
nope i've posted a few times. i've been here ~2 days. i've already learned, from the people and the site.
I just mailed u.
I gotta see those posts....
i've been really busy man, to really understate it. sorry i haven't replied in a while
>>i've been really busy man, to really understate it.<<
Look on the bright side:
The summer vacation is rapidly approaching....
yay subway tours
It can be done in NYC, I have a T/O on an R46 F that does it everyday at almost every station.
See Robert's posts. If the train is in FULL SERVICE you can let go of the deadman's.
FIRST - YOU ARE WRONG
Second, I'm having a real problem with the fact that you keep posting information that is wrong while trying to portray yourself as an expert on this system.
Why You Are Wrong:
Once brake pipe pressure exceeds 57 PSI the emergency check valve is forced closed. This removes brakepipe air from the pilot valve. Hence, when the deadman's feature is released, the pilot valve opens but has no air to exhaust to atmosphere.
Very interesting.
There was a similar point made on another board in re the recent Ohio runaway freight. While the mechanical details may be different (as to which I have no idea), it appears that applying full service brakes defeats the deadman's feature (or more modern replacement) on both RR engines and NYC subway cars.
Brings to mind a couple of questions which I hope you won't mind answering.
1) A freight engineer posted an explanation of why it is possible (indeed desireable) to be able to apply traction power and brakes on a freight train at the same time. (It had to do with taking out the slack.) Is it possible/ever useful on a NYC subway train?
The point was made that BIE on a diesel engine will cut traction power in addition to applying the brakes. Is the same true on a NYC subway car?
Thanks.
Very interesting.
There was a similar point made on another board in re the recent Ohio runaway freight. While the mechanical details may be different (as to which I have no idea), it appears that applying full service brakes defeats the deadman's feature (or more modern replacement) on both RR engines and NYC subway cars.
Brings to mind a couple of questions which I hope you won't mind answering.
1) A freight engineer posted an explanation of why it is possible (indeed desireable) to be able to apply traction power and brakes on a freight train at the same time. (It had to do with taking out the slack.) Is it possible/ever useful on a NYC subway train?
2) The point was made that BIE on a diesel engine will cut traction power in addition to applying the brakes. Is the same true on a NYC subway car?
Thanks.
1) A freight engineer posted an explanation of why it is possible (indeed desireable) to be able to apply traction power and brakes on a freight train at the same time. (It had to do with taking out the slack.) Is it possible/ever useful on a NYC subway train?
On freight or passenger train, it's desireable for control of the equipment and for comfort. As you correctly poit out, keeping a stretch or compression on the couplers keeps the train from 'rubberbanding'. On subway equipment this is dane in two instances. The first is under a condition we refer to as 'snow brake' where the train is operated with 5-7 Lbs on the brale to keep snow and ice from building up. The 2nd is when we power-test the train. We flash the traction motors while holding a full service brake to insure that each car takes power.
) The point was made that BIE on a diesel engine will cut traction power in addition to applying the brakes. Is the same true on a NYC subway car?
The same is true on all NYCT equipment. If brakepipe drops below 90 PSI (nominal) the emergency pressure switch or emergency contactor (GE or Westinghouse) will drop out. This will open CB+ and the low voltage is remover from the propulsion package.
>>FIRST - YOU ARE WRONG<<
So what? I'm here to learn. And I was informing Rob from all of my previous knowledge. I'm sorry that I was wrong Rob. But you, Train Dude, are a class I jerk.
>>Second, I'm having a real problem with the fact that you keep posting information that is wrong while trying to portray yourself as an expert on this system. <<
I don't know what your talking about. I never portray myself as an expert. But I know a lot. My father works for the TA. I should know a lot. Aside from that Coney Island Thing, I've been correct.
What I'm sick of is your Popmous attitude that since your TA brass, you can look down on the rest of at us and insult us at will. I get sick of that. I'm sure I know things you don't. Can you accurately read a load chart? Can you tell how much weight a TA 3-ton crane can lift at a boom angle of 45 degrees? Can you teach a track safety class? Do you walk revenue tracks on a regular basis? I know a lot of stuff. I don't operate trains, but from what T/O's told me, releasing the Dead man's handle meant instant BIE. So, if you want to
>>FIRST - YOU ARE WRONG<<
So what? I'm here to learn. And I was informing Rob from all of my previous knowledge. I'm sorry that I was wrong Rob. But you, Train Dude, are a class I jerk.
>>Second, I'm having a real problem with the fact that you keep posting information that is wrong while trying to portray yourself as an expert on this system. <<
I don't know what your talking about. I never portray myself as an expert. But I know a lot. My father works for the TA. I should know a lot. Aside from that Coney Island Thing, I've been correct.
What I'm sick of is your Popmous attitude that since your TA brass, you can look down on the rest of at us and insult us at will. I get sick of that. I'm sure I know things you don't. Can you accurately read a load chart? Can you tell how much weight a TA 3-ton crane can lift at a boom angle of 45 degrees? Can you teach a track safety class? Do you walk revenue tracks on a regular basis? I know a lot of stuff. I don't operate trains, but from what T/O's told me, releasing the Dead man's handle meant instant BIE. So, if you want to Blame anyone, blame your employees.
Jack ass.
If you are here to learn, you'll learn more if you keep your ears open and your mouth shut. You learn nothing by pretending that you know something when you don't. As for me being a jerk, Oh well. I've been called worse by better. Hopefully I'll get over it.
As for my popmous attitude - I think you may mean pompous - don't you? Now as for the list of things you want to know if i can do. - I doubt that I can do all that. What does that mean to you? Does that make you smarter?
I've got a minute or two tonight - tell me everything you know.
>>If you are here to learn, you'll learn more if you keep your ears open and your mouth shut.<<
I said I was here to teach and to learn. Pay attention.
>>You learn nothing by pretending that you know something when you don't.<<
Please tell me what you're referring to. I had been told by Train Operators that letting go of the dead man's handle meant instant stop.
>>As for my popmous attitude - I think you may mean pompous - don't you?<<
You state here that you are about to address this popmous attitude and then fail to. Why get on someone for a typo, hmm? Nothing better to do?
>>Now as for the list of things you want to know if i can do. - I doubt that I can do all that.<<
So by your standards, you are not an expert on the system. And by those same standards, you shouldn't open your mouth anymore.
>>What does that mean to you? Does that make you smarter?<<
No, it hardly makes me 'smarter'. What it means is that I don't know everything, and neither do you nor anyone else on this board. I posted something that I thought was accurate. I was wrong. I'm sure that you've been wrong numerous times too. If I am, fine. But no need to get nasty and snotty.
>>I've got a minute or two tonight - tell me everything you know.<<
Pretty sly TD. A nice little hidden insult there. No matter. I'll address that:
Do you mean:
My NYCT knowledge? or ALL my knowledge?
Either way, it would take tons of time to type in, and that's if I just give you a fragment of that knowledge.
I think the rest of us could do without the name-calling.
David
Sorry guys.
Thanks David. You just cleared my head.
You're right, I must have missed the part about you being here to teach. Can't understand why I would have missed that one - after all you do have much incorrect information to share.
So by your standards, you are not an expert on the system. And by those same standards, you shouldn't open your mouth anymore.
No one is an expert about every aspect of the subway system, not even Mr. Reuter. However, I can operate a train as well as most operators I can operate a signal tower in an emergency. I can evaluate accidends even if they involve track, signal or car equipment. I can also teach track safety (Or high school history or economics for that matter) too. Most importanly, at what I do - at what I get paid for, I am regarded as one of the best. I have documentable results to show for my efforts. Now if you are going to suggest that because I possibly can't do every menial job in the Department of Subways, I am not qualified to speak about the area in which I am an expert - then you are wrong again.
By the way - that Train Dudd thing was cute - and very original - very original. Next time try Drain Dude - we had some laughs with that one.
Now my friend - it's time to end this. This is hardly entertaining.
>>No one is an expert about every aspect of the subway system, not even Mr. Reuter. However, I can operate a train as well as most operators I can operate a signal tower in an emergency. I can evaluate accidends even if they involve track, signal or car equipment. I can also teach track safety (Or high school history or economics for that matter) too. Most importanly, at what I do - at what I get paid for, I am regarded as one of the best. I have documentable results to show for my efforts. Now if you are going to suggest that because I possibly can't do every menial job in the Department of Subways, I am not qualified to speak about the area in which I am an expert - then you are wrong again.<<
I see. I spew nothing but incorrect facts while you say only correct things. I find that hard to believe. I have posted quite a bit of things that are correct, but I never portray myself as an expert. You get paid for what you do, great. You do good at it: even better. I bet an airplane mechanic knows much more about airplanes than me. But I can tell you right now that an X-31 has One 16000lb thrust General elcetric F404-GE-400 turbojet, that it's max speed is 1,710mph at 28,000ft of elevation above sea level and that loaded it almost has a 1:1 ratio with 15,900lbs. of weight. But I'm sure a mechanic knows more than this. Does this mean I should shut my mouth if someone asks a question? I'm hardly an X-31 expert.
Similarly, you state here that only experts should speak on subjects. Well then we might as well have most of us just shut our mouths from now on, because we aren't experts as defined by you. N
Never did I claim to be an expert. An expert is someone who can tell you how fast something stops, not that it can stop. You are indeed an expert on subway car braking. You corrected a fact that I got wrong. I got this fact from a T/O. I figured that T/O's are a reliable source of information for subways. (Guess I'll never make that mistake again). I posted something that someone told me. If that fact was wrong, there was no need to say that I constantly call myself an 'expert'. I hardly do that; I hardly even understand half the things some of you guys say.
Interestingly, Jeff H. has posted that you are wrong too. If you are wrong, do I get to say that: "You always show yourself to be an expert while stating incorrect facts."? It would be shameful for an expert to be wrong.
Yes, but his error did not affect the substance of the discussion,
it was almost a typo.
True, but wouldn't it be nicer all around if we could just gently bust chops cheerfully instead of belittling people? Sorta like the way I treat Fred and some others here, as do many others?
There's no need for stapling people to the walls. Just a thought. Nevermind. :)
I see. I spew nothing but incorrect facts while you say only correct things. I find that hard to believe. I have posted quite a bit of things that are correct, but I never portray myself as an expert. You get paid for what you do, great. You do good at it: even better. I bet an airplane mechanic knows much more about airplanes than me. But I can tell you right now that an X-31 has One 16000lb thrust General elcetric F404-GE-400 turbojet, that it's max speed is 1,710mph at 28,000ft of elevation above sea level and that loaded it almost has a 1:1 ratio with 15,900lbs. of weight. But I'm sure a mechanic knows more than this. Does this mean I should shut my mouth if someone asks a question? I'm hardly an X-31 expert.
Listen, dingleberry, any asshole can spout mounds of facts if he has a half-descent memory. That does not make him an expert. What makes a person knowledgable is when he understands the concepts that make up the subject matter. Yes, I made a technical error? In fact as soon as I hit the post button I realized I mis-spoke. I was simply too lazy to go back and correct the minor error. If you believe that error indicates that I do not have a firm grasp of the subject matter - more the pity, youngster.
After last night's repartee, I was content to let you go on your way. I guess you're too young and full of piss and vinegar to know when to leave well enough alone. You may know facts about trains. You may know facts about planes. You are by no means an expert of either. I have no intent to post my resume here. However, I've seen what you got. Trust me, Jr., you couldn't hold a candle to my car inspectors. But, okay, you like planes - you like facts - tell me what you know about the SR-71:
1) At what trmperature does the engine lubricant become liquid?
2) If only 25% of the engines output comes from the actual combustion of fuel - where does the other 75% come from?
3) What's the fastest time for an SR-71 - London to Washington DC?
You see, genius, I have flown planes but I'm by no means an expert. I know lots of facts but I'm by no means an expert. When I have a flying question - I ask someone like Todd. If I have an electrical question - I ask Jeff. If I want to know about capacities or pre 1900 law, I get Stephen Bauman involved.
Oh, the SR-71 questions? You can look the answers up since the plane has been de-classified for quite a while. Now if you are an expert, though, you won't need to look them up. In the mean time - take the hint. You know facts - not concepts. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.
SSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH come on we're all friends here now, arent we? lets not resort to cyberviolence, transit related, even me and train dude made peace at a time, its ok to make a mistake, but lets correct it on friendly terms.
2) If only 25% of the engines output comes from the actual combustion of fuel - where does the other 75% come from?
Actually, 100% of the output comes from the combustion of fuel. Believe me, you do not want to be up in the plane when the engines are not burning fuel!
If you mean that some of the energy comes directly from the burning fuel heating gases, which expand out the back producing thrust, but most comes from the expansion driving the turbine shaft, which drives the bypass fans, which simply blow air at high speed out the back to produce much more thrust, then we are talking about a modern turbo-jet. But the energy still comes from burning dat aviation fuel!
John.
Duh, not according to the USAF.
Doesnt the SR-71 have RAMJet Engines not turboshaft? dorect air fuel injection, and no rotating compressor? the compression is made due to the already great speed at which the vehicle is traveling. correct or add on, I'll be happy flyingmy Cessna 172SP, with my flight instructor, having to worry about the mixture and trim at speed instead of Atolls or SAMS or Fulcrums with their Atolls while buzzing over the good 'ol USSR
As I said, I am no expert but I did see one of the engines. They said that 51% of the thrust was generated by the force of the ail entering the engine. The balance was due to the super-heated ceramic thigamajig. They did say that the engine lubricant was solid to 86 degrees F. and had to be pre-heated before the engine could be started. Incidently - London to Washington, DC in 54 minutes.
One more thing, the heat produced by the friction the airframe encounters at its hypersonic speeds is enough to melt any sealant or caulking used to house the fuel and other fluids aboard the plane. Despite numerous efforts to produce a heat-resistant sealant, after an SR-71 lands, you will see drippings of oils and fuel coming from under the wings.
London to Washington DC in 54 minutes? Most likely the aircraft was in flight over London and landed somewhere other than Washington DC for that to happen. As it is, this means the plane was traveling more than 3800 miles per hour. Believable, but not very common.
* he cant be all bad ( train dude ) he does seem to like some good old classic automobiles !!
Not everything about that plane is declassified. Indecently, my grandmother was part of the team that designed the skin of the SR-71 that makes it stealth. How cool is that? What's also cool is that she told my dad a long time ago that they actually tested the plane going around Mach 7 or 8! Way faster than a piddling 3800 mph, or around Mach 5. Try finding that in any gov't report.
>>> Indecently, my grandmother was part of the team that designed the skin of the SR-71 that makes it stealth. <<<
Good Lord, what kind of things was the team doing?
Tom
LOL, oops, maybe next time I'll check for any freudian slips.
Since they couldn't design a sealant the plane itself was designed to leak. That way when the the surface heated up the tanks would seal as the the body expanded from the heat.
The plane leaks so much, after every take off it needs to tank and take on more fuel.
/*If you mean that some of the energy comes directly from the burning fuel heating gases, which expand out the back producing thrust, but most comes from the expansion driving the turbine shaft, which drives the bypass fans*/
Not on the J58, the SR-71's engines. They were turbojets, thus had no fans, no bypass. Most air is still not burnt in normal (non afterburner) operation - the bulk is used for cooling the burner cans and other things. And some is dumped overboard via the air bleeds for providing cabin pressure, and preventing compressor stalls.
From Pratt's training tape, the jet part of turbojet refers to the use of a jet nozzel in the back of the enine, and the turbo part refers to the use of a turbine as a gas generator.
/*which simply blow air at high speed out the back to produce much more thrust, then we are talking about a modern turbo-jet.
Actually, you are describing the turbo*fan*, which has bypass ducts and a fan. Most early ones (JT-3D, JT-8D)were low bypass ratios, the later JT-9D and whatever GE's was have higher bypass ratios, and today's 110" fans are even higher. The air is a lower velocity, but is accelerated slightly by a convergent duct on the back of the fan, giving the now well known shape that you see below the wings of a 747.
A turbojet has no bypass, a turbofan does. Both don't burn all the air they suck in, however. I don't think even with afterburners that they do. Some air has to be used for cooling purposes, and driving accesories.
/* But the energy still comes from burning dat aviation fuel*/
True :)
And even though most air isn't used for anything, all the fuel pretty much is. The J58 is a HUGE engine, by the way. It's not large in diameter, but very long. And primative, it uses cables and pulleys on it. It is also the only engine currently rated for continuous afterburner use. Later millitary aircraft use so-called augmented turbofans, even fighters.
All comercial aircraft (large type) use turbofans today, though I believe the first 707 used turbojets, but were upgraded. This was the JT-3 and JT-3D (turbofan), which were comercial derivatives of the J-57. A very few 707s and DC-8s had JT-4 (J75) engines, but this didn't last long.
Anyway additions/corrections welcome, though I did try to remember the more interesting stuff i saw at Pratt when I was co-oping there :)
Sorry about the difference between the turbo-jet & turbo fan. Most jet engines are turbo-fans, because they give the best bang for the buck (which in this case is thrust/fuel burned).
However, they get less efficient as the speed goes up.
I believe that turbo-jets, which are just the compressor/burner/expansion turbines can operate to higher speeds as the SR-71 demonstrates. However, the thrust is still expanding air.
Note to Train Dude: All these are variations of sucking air in the front, and ejecting it at a higher speed out the back (either by heat/expansion or pushing it with a fan). There is no thrust generated by the air entering the engine.
Now the really neat things are the RAM jets & SCRAM jets. These just take air in, heat it up and push it out the back with no moving parts. Only thing is they tend to have to be supersonic before they start working and the design is tricky. But theyre the next best thing to a rocket, and have the big advantage that they dont need to bring the oxidizer along with them.
Not an expert here: just someone who has spent a lot of time around the Boeing & NASA sites.
There is a good diagram of a turbofan here: http://www.utc.com/discover/hiw-eng.htm
This is NASAs experimental SCRAM Jet program
John.
Certain Designs show turbofans or Turbojets used upto a certain speed then another RAMjet takes over, after the speeds are high enough where compression takes over without a rotating fan but just because of the high speed of the air being forced into the ignition chamber
The turbojet,fan,prop,etc confusion can be cleared up simply:
/turbo/ refers to the use of a compressor/diffusor/combustor/turbine section. This is know also as a "gas generator" because it creates hot exhaust gasses. We can do useful stuff with these gasses.
If we blow them through a nozzle (effectively a convergent duct), we get a turbo*jet* That's what the jet part refers to.
Or, we can put another stage of turbines on. This gives us a spinning shaft, and we call this a turboshaft engine. These can fly helicopters, generate electricity, or move trains. Or anything a spinning shaft can do.
Well, it didn't take long before someone thought of spinning a propeller with it, via gear reduction. This is a turboprop, a design which is still commonly used today.
The final, and most known is the turbofan. This uses a "fan" inside a large duct. Actually, most turbofans drive the fan with the low spool compressor, or as GE (Pratt's eternal enemy!) calls it, the "booster" section.
Almost all modern gas generators (larger ones) use axial compressors and 2 spools. Early jets were centrifugal and single spool - a single compressor and turbine. The compressor was like the blower in a dryer. I've seen cut aways of them, they are very simple! Axials were developed I believe in the US and Germany. Early jets were slow to accelerate - this was solved by splitting the engine into two "spools" - two sepperate compressor/turbine sections. This is still used today. This also boosts efficientcy, and allows higher compression without compressor stalls. It wasn't much of a step to add a giant fan in the front (early GEs had it in the back).
Initially, everyone was trying to make large jet engines, but today, Pratt, GE and Rolls are the only ones left. A few others make smaller engines though.
Fuel consumption is usually measured in thrust per amount of fuel burned an hour. I believe the JT-8Ds used on early 737s were in the range of .75 lbs of fuel per lb of thrust per hour. The more recent GE turbofans used on 737s are quite a bit lower (.5 or so). This adds up to a big gain for airlines.
Having seen lots of jet engine parts, it's quite amazing how something that origionally was barely more impressive than a kitchen exhaust fan has turned into an amazingly complex product!
>>You may know facts about trains. You may know facts about planes. You are by no means an expert of either.<<
You still don't get it. When I posted what I posted about an X-31, I was proving that I was NOT an expert, but that I still knew some things about the X-31. Similarly, I know some things about trains, but I am not an expert. I have stated numerous times in this thread that I am not an expert. But if someone asks something that I think I know, I am entitled to answer it.
Now then, you want some answers:
1. I have no idea when the lubricant becomes liquid. I don't really care either.
2. This is so simple. The air provides the other 75%
3. I don't know. But, here's a question for you: What's the fastest time for a D train from Coney Island to 205th st (seriously)
>>I've seen what you got. Trust me, Jr., you couldn't hold a candle to my car inspectors.<<
I shouldn't be able to. And besides, I never said I did. This is obviously unnerving you: If you payed attention as you read, you'd know that I said I am no expert but I know some things.
>>In the mean time - take the hint. You know facts - not concepts.<<
Really? That's funny, because I get tested in school on Concepts, not facts, in Physics and Mathematics. Now, whether or not you were generalizing, I don't care.
But, before I go, I have a real question for you. Say someone Is OPTOing the G line with an R-68 (It has two-fisted operation still, right?). The operator approaches Bedford-Nostrand Avs. Can this person:
1. Put the brakes in full.
2. Release deadman's handle
3. Get up and walk to other side of car in preparation to open the doors while the train is still moving?
4. Can this be done in a R-46?
Yes that can be done on an R68 (which is not normally seen
on the G) and an R46 (which is). It is, however, a vulgar practice.
You may not understand why I'm posting this, but despite all of the run-ins we've had, you're doing a good job here. Really, that's all I can say without starting another useless conflict.
Let's see:
1. Run ins we've had
2. another useless conflict
3. Poster name: >>Metro-Houston NFI D40LF No. 4054<<
I thin I've got a good idea
As long as the straight air is 58 PSI or higher, regardless of the type of equipment, a train operator can release the master controller handle and the train will not go into emergency - providing the brake valve is adjusted properly.
I checked the rulebook and find that there is no specific rule prohibiting the practice. (If any T/Os know differently I'd love to know where it is stated.) However, clearly once you do as you suggest, the train is no longer under the control of the operator. To be sure, if I were to witness such an act, I'd have to consider the operator negligent inthe performance of their duties.
Wouldn't have seen it done back in my days ... the R1/9's had a nasty habit of a "brick wall stop" if you didn't release as the wheels finally grabbed to the car marker. Perhaps all the cited complaints about inattentive crews we see here just might be the result of making the job as boring as watching one of those Turner cable channels. :)
First, JTrainLoco, you are wrong: on any NYCT passenger car
the deadman can be released if and only if the brake is applied
at full service.
Second, Train Dude, you made a mistake too: It's 57 pounds
of Straight Air, not Brake Pipe.
I mentioned this after my Atlanta trip last summer, no one answered. I recall hearing a warning tone when this happened and then the train would stop but I couldn' sense the BIE. They only did manual on the East-West. It was ATO only on the North-South.
I mentioned this after my Atlanta trip last summer, no one answered. I recall hearing a warning tone when this happened and then the train would stop but I couldn' sense the BIE. They only did manual on the East-West. It was ATO only on the North-South.
Yeah, I was on the East when I saw it. He would go into ATO once in a while, but most of the time it was manual. I don't think the train went into BIE, the train stopped smoothly every time. I take it WMATA never does this?
You can do it on NYC train, you put the brake handle into full serivec and then release the dead man, the brakes won't go BIE. I seen it done, and I have done it my self onec in a while. I give you about another 10PSI into the braking systems.
Robert
Back in the two-fisted days, I know that worked ... now that it's that silly slide-fader jobbie with all in one, I noted that you had to turn the tee handle to engage. I take it that the train won't dump in FS app if you let the handle go? I hadn't expected that to be the case. Then again, I'm one of the old AMUE types ... whadda I know about what's rolling these days? :)
You can even do it with the R44's & R46's, put the train into full service and let go. The train won't go BIE. As for the R142's, R142a's or R143's I doing know I never ask anyone opt. a R142 if this is possable. But for what I can tell with computer system you can't. The system tell you to call the command center if something gose worng like Brakes in BIE. I will have to look into the one day when I have a chance.
Robert
Never did a cab in one of those ... at the time they were the new kids on the block and you had to be a GOOD boy in local 100 or you weren't permitted to even glance at them when they came into the station ("I am not worthy" and all) ... but don't go to any trouble to find out, was just curious ...
I know the R9 at BERA if you center the reverse key you can let go of the deadman's switch (controler). I don't know if they did that when in service.
A certain subtalker does that when the pole takes the wrong wire and he is moving 1689 OPTO (pole foward), he would center the key and move out of the cab, lean out the storm door and move the pole to the correct wire while the car was moving (okay crawling). Not the recomended practice but hey it gets the job done.
Yep, that's correct about dropping out the reverser so you can let go of the handle ... I've done it once or twice on CPW ... I do like that operating procedure though at BERA ... sounds like the Ohio school of route selection. :)
Watch out, those blank side signs are a dead giveaway.
Heh. I know ... but with one side against the wall, the other side pounding past local stops that no self-respecting RCI or supervisor would subject their ears to, combined with the fact that MOST of the side signs were full of dead bulbs anyway, never got caught. :)
But yeah, there were dead giveaways that the geese never noticed. If I recall, the route signs on the ends went dark also ...
The destination sign only. The route sign is illuminated
on the marker light circuit.
That I wasn't sure of ... might have been the R10's that did that then.
It was that way on all old-school R types up to and including
R38.
Just call me lucky ... nobody ever noticed. :)
And the only reason *I* did it was my own motor instructor showed me the trick and made me promise I'd never tell anyone where I picked up the bad habit. Hey, sometimes ya just gotta bite a sandwich and unlike diesels, you can't drop your toolbox on it while ya munch. CPW was a great place to eat your official PayDay bar or give the old paycheck a bounce test on the floor of the cab. Heh.
I often post to Subtalk from 2 different sources, my PC and my WebTV box. It seems that every time I post here using my PC, using the same password, erases all my information when I try to post with WebTV afterwoods. Anyone know why?
might have something to do with your browser. anyways, how long DOES it take to type in a simple handle and password? =)
I believe it's the design of the web board software used here since it places a time/date stamp along with values for your identity here. Chances are the software in use here doesn't expect what you're doing. And WebTV is funky all on its own. Maybe Dave P knows the mechanics of how the cookies are used ... since I toss cookies normally but need to keep the subtalk one for my own personal sanity, the cookie changes every time you visit but I'm still not certain as to whether the ID number is a date/time stamp or a randomly generated database index number from the last time you were here to remember what you last read.
The cookies are maintained independently of the server on each machine you use to visit the site. You'll have to provide the information the first time you post from a new PC (or erase the cookies). Does webtv even maintain cookies after you shut it off? Posting from one PC cannot affect the cookie on the other PC although the timestamp of your "last visit" (see below) will be the time you last used that PC to visit.
The timestamp in the cookie is the time of your last visit. It's not randomly generated nor is it some sort of database index number. I don't keep track of when people visit on the server side. The timestamp in the cookie is used to put the little "NEW:" headers on messages.
Yeah, webTV stores cookies (Microsoft insists on a globally unique identifier [GUID]) so they can IDENTIFY each user of their service. The cookie value on subtalk looked like a time stamp ... after all, I trust YOU ... what was strange is I noted that the number would descend over a particular day, and sometimes I would get the same number at a different time on the same day after a repeat visit, so that's what made me uncertain as to whether it was a time/date stamp or perhaps the database was storing highest number read and was storing that number to go pick it for the formatting.
I know I've accidentally wiped the cookie for here at times and completely lost my way as to where I had left off. I make sure not to now. Heh.
Here's the format of the Subtalk/Bustalk cookies:
Boardname
name="Your Handle"
email="Your Email Address"
postpw="Your Password"
listtype=Chronological, Compressed, By Threads, Reversed
listtime=how many days worth of messages you prefer to see
timestamp=the date/time of the last time the cookie was sent to you in time() ("seconds since the epoch") format
killfile=your killfile entries
Yeah, now that you've laid that out, I'm seeing the time/date stamp down where you say it is. Netscape's putting an expire tag after the true-/cgi-bin-false bits ... must be Netscape's doing then. That was what I was wondering about since IE and Nutscrape do the same data differently ... thanks for the rundown on that, bro ...
No WebTV doesn't maintain cookies after I power down, so posts I "visited" appear blue when I return after powering off.
WebTV offers absolutley no control of it's internal cookies.
Thanks for the information.
Color of links is your visitation history, not cookies.
Does a Web TV device have a hard drive? Anywhere else to store a cookie? Or to store any other kind of file, for that matter? If not, there's your answer.
The cookies and all are stored on the WebTV servers. The WebTV servers have hard drives.
Some configurations of WebTV do come with hard drives. The bottom end units do not. However, they all have battery backed up nonvolatile memory which is used to store local data and the sacred cookie of Redmond. It's trickle-charged from the wall plug when the unit's off.
The plus units have internal hard drives, but they don't work the same way PC ones do. I can't download a file and say, save it to the disk. The operating system has complete control of the drive.
Most of the vital information WebTV users save is not saved on this drive, but on drives at WebTV's server centers. Only saved e-mails and certain utilities are stored on the disk. When we get an upgrade, the new code is written to the disk (kinda like installing a new application on a PC).
Wowsers ... yeah, I trust my personal stuff in Billy's hands. :)
The source where you posted is where your info is saved if you are using another source the info on the other sorce will be deleted( it thinks that is your new sorce)
You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
-Dave
It will be a shame if, at the end of their operational lives, a "redbird" is not preserved at the Transit Museum. Though in this writer's opinion lacking the character of their World's Fair predecessors, they nonetheless added a distinct feel to an already interesting line. For me their passing will be but another reminder that at thirty-six I am already "old" by railfan standards and it is thus with some sadness that I see their approaching end. At the end of my first major period of transit photography in 1985, they (when new) would be the last images of the New York system I would capture on film for over a decade. Soon they, like the graffiti clad trains of the Brooklyn-Broadway El, will be history and I suspect that in the end, we will be all the poorer for it.
E_DOG
nice post !! i agree with you they also should do museum runs in the future as well !!! save the best cars run them
from the transit museum !!! like the bmt Ds do this july !!!
The Transit Museum has cars that are similar in design to Redbirds: R-17 and R-33S come to mind (in fact, some of the Redbirds are R-33Ss).
The Illinois Railway Museum plans to get a pair of Redbirds to run on its right-of-way, which is long enough for the cars to open up.
David
Has the IRM figured out which pair yet ? I assume ACF, or maybe mix-match an ACF with a St Louis, the same policy as with acquiring C&NW gallery cars.
"Has the IRM figured out which pair yet ? I assume ACF, or maybe mix-match an ACF with a St Louis, the same policy as with acquiring C&NW gallery cars."
I.R.M. has stated a preference for a A.C.F. Redbird pair since they have little A.C.F. equipment in their collection.
Bill "Newkirk"
Very well said...
Viewing this situation as the TA does, the new cars are clean, well lit, air conditioned, have working PA systems and are well, new. Thus, it will be good for their business; which is moving people. The vast majority of the riding public will like the new equipment and will tend to use mass transit instead of driving their cars, which is also a good thing. I wish the new cars all the best.
Viewing this situation as a railfan, I find the new equipment uninteresting. They lack all of the qualities that hooked me into being a railfan some 35 years or so ago. The sounds, feel, look of the older equipment will never be duplicated. Including the oft-mentioned/ridiculed railfan window. Many NYC subway fans (myself included) started out a wide-eyed kids staring out the front window at a mysterious underground world; or watching the many diverse NYC neighborhoods speed by on an elevated or open-cut run. I am sad, as well, and wish that in this case that time did not have to pass. We don't have a choice in that matter, but at least we'll have our books, photos, recordings, etc. I even have a few pieces of them in my collection...number plates, controller handles. I'm glad that I had an opportunity to participate in a part of the redbirds' history.
When did the TA install the PA system in the cars?
The "Redbirds" came with PA systems as original equipment. The current PA systems on the cars were installed during overhaul in the 1980s (to 1991 on the R-33s).
David
Have you been to the Transit Museum? They have an R-33 in WF colors there already.
Dan
Yes, in addition a number of other examples of "Arch Roof" type cars, e.g. R-16.
Mr t__:^)
There's one thing wrong with the name of this thread..... The Transit Museum has no redbirds for preservation. To say that the R33 World's Fair Car at Court Street is a Redbird is totally incorrect, because it was a never a Redbird during the time the car was on the road.
The cars at the Museum may represent the modern Redbirds but they aren't Redbirds.
-Stef
9306 has been at the museum for almost a quarter century now, so I would say it's definitely part of the museum fleet.
Technically, only by preserving an R-29, an R-33 or an R-36 mainline car could the museum actually preserve a "Redbird", since those are the only cars that were delievered in that color (though the red was slightly lighter than today's `birds and with the red roof to match).
If they do save one or two of those cars, I hope someone still has the "NYC Transit System" logo template around someplace, so they can restore the train to its fully original look.
Why did the TA take a seemingly perfectly good R33S out of service so many years ago for the TM ?
This R-33S is NOT working, and has not for a very long time.
That's obvious, but why not ?
" . . . If you can get anybody interested in saving the R-22's, why don't you buy them; after all they are for sale at, $0.02 a pound for the iron (50,000 lbs). What the matter, you can't find a bunch of people to chip in? . . ."
I would ask for at least two 10- 11 sets of cars to be preserved with all of the spare parts saved for them as well to be used for
NOSTALGA & OR MUSEUM RUNS in the future as well !! This would be an excellent idea dont you think ?? YEA !!!!!
Considering we have r-26, r-28, r-29, r-33, r-36ML and r-36WF....
....would we be preserving 10-11 cars overall????
.....or 10-11 cars from each class????
.......picture windows or not???
.........any oddity cars we'd preserve (ie. 7773)??
...........cars with dark tone roofs or light grey roofs?
.............striped floors or one-tone floors??
SOMEONE gotta think this over.. :Cv
got that right !! see you this fall on the # 4 redbird & re shoot the #6 as well !! mid october 2001 ....
There are two type of roadbeds that I know of used in subways, gravel with crossties, and concrete with whatever holds the rail in place. Which one do you think is better?
I think gravel is better because: The gravel is softer, so it can absorb vibration better, and when it comes time to replace the wooden or concrete ties, it's much easier than tearing up the enitre roadbed.
Well, I'm a traditionalist and I prefer what transit calls
Type 1 track (full-length ties in ballast). I also prefer
spikes to Pandrol clips but the latter are really much better.
Can anyone name all of the "type" codes for TA track? Offhand,
I can think of type 1, type 2 (IND style half-ties in concrete),
2 modified (third rail ties are full-length), and 8 (elevated
structure).
Type III is elevated track.
David
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that track placed directly onto concrete was favored because it helped quiet the train (eg less noise pollution from trains operating on open-cut sections.
I could have misread that info, though, so feel free to correct me on that point.
I noticed this too recently while looking out the front window of an R-32 on the BMT Braodway line. For a good portion of the line, the local tracks are "stub" ties set in concrete which don't cross over the whole roadbed. Instead there is a concrete ditch in the middle of the tracks. I always assumed this ditch was for drainage, owing to the fact that that is the most common style throughout the system where it is underground, and you often see water streaming down it (usually carrying various garbage, which eventually collects in huge piles clogging up the drains). I was wondering why the express tracks on the N/R line in Manhattan were traditional "full-length" ties with ballast like you would see on a "regular" railroad. Do not the express tracks have the same problem with water? There are still drainage grates for the express tracks, but no ditch.
Though I've not conducted a study or anything, I would assume that the traditional stone ballast would absorb vibration and sound better than hard concrete ballast, and that the only reason for the ties-with-the-middle-cut-out-to-create-a-drainage-ditch construction was to allow for an unobstructed conduit to relieve the system of water. This made sense to me because wouldn't water build-up tend to rot ties faster, even given the creosoting?
Please correct me if the "ditch" in fact isn't for drainage, or if anyone knows whether traditional or concrete ballast is noisier. I'm curios too.
I believe, but haven't confirmed, that those ditches are for drainage. The ones here on MARTA have drains various points, so unless they have a dual purpose, they are for drainage.
Rob,
The channel running down the centerline of the trackage is for drainage. There are certain design criteria that specify the slope and width. How well were those followed in actual subway construction? I don't know.
Now I too have noticed that certain sections of tunnel have ties set in ballast, while other sections have ties set in concrete with an open channel.
I have several theories about this, but as I said in a post just a few days ago, the only engineering plans for a tunnel segment that I have seen are for the Crosstown-IND in the Greenpoint neighborhood, and they aren't very illuminating, except that the matte is shown as three feet thick with no piles (?!?).
One given is that subway tunnel construction changes from segment to segment. The change may be subtle, and not apparent to the untrained eye. Stations have a different foundation construction than tunnel segments, and tunnel segments often differ from one another. Now pardon my speculation, but I wonder if some types of construction may lend themselves to one form of roadbed over another.
Another guess is that drainage is in fact provided underneath the ballast in track segments that appear to be just your typical roadbed. Drainage should be provided everywhere along the tunnel, and a channel would definitely be required. However, the designers may have figured that garbage would not accumulate in tunnels as much as it would by platforms where, well, people can throw it. A drainage channel could be hidden underneath the ballast, where the ballast would filter out what garbage there is, and water would flow through the ballast down into a channel underneath the ties. Yet by the platforms, ballast would make cleaning of the tracks much more difficult. My evidence for this wild theory is, as someone else mentioned, the difference in roadbed for the express and local Broadway-BMT tracks. Another change occurs at my station: 86th and Lex. The tracks appear to be ballasted right up until the station segment. The tracks in the station are ties set in concrete.
I'm curious to find out what the right answer is.
MATT-2AV
I like your analysis. I wouldn't be surprised if you were absolutely right.
but I wonder if some types of construction may lend themselves to one form of roadbed over another.
That's a good question, I wish I knew the answer. Maybe after taking some classes related to that, I'll know the answer.
I've noticed on MARTA East line that on a 3-4 station line segment it's mostly in ballast, and the station portion is concrete, however other parts of that line have a ballast roadbed in the station segment as well. The thing is that the 3-4 stations along that particular segment are all ground level stations, and were built at the same time, so it's a mystery to me why they would change the roadbeds like that.
...but there's only one way to find out.
Meet me at the downtown end of the downtown express platform at 86ht and Lexington (preferably) after midnight.
Bring your own shovel.
...
"What are you doing?"
"Noooooothing...."
Thanks for your repsonses. This is something I've wondered about, but never asked.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: If the MTA, NYPD, or any other authorities are reading this. I'm not serious.
In the London Underground the pits are for when people jump in front of a train. All the parts fall into the pit and can be easily removed, speeding recovery time. They are officially called suicide pits.
In theory the ditch in type II track is both for drainage and
safety. There are documented cases of passengers, excuse me,
customers falling to the track, landing in the ditch, and surviving
a train passing over.
With type I traditional ballasted track in tunnel, there is
a concrete ditch underneath with drainage. The water seeps
down through the gravel and into the drain.
In the TA world, we have three basic types:
Type I, which are crossties in ballast (found at junctions and surface/embankment running)
Type II, which are crossties (or half ties) in a concrete base
Type III, which are pre-fabricated crossties bonded together with metal connectors, used for elevated running
Type II I've seen in pictures of IND stations, I believe. They seem to be a good type of roadbed because the wood can absorb vibration well, and if they had to be replaced, it would be relatively simple. However, if the concrete bed underneath should decay, it would still be hard to tear up and replace, unlike replacing a Type I with gravel.
In type III:
The rails are a part of the ties, as are the walkways for TA employees. These things are called track panels. It's all one big part, which is better for elevateds, but worse on solid ground.
How about concrete ties vs. wooden ties ?
Well, a few years ago before they were retired, I took a LIRR train out of Hicksville heading to Hunterspoint Ave. I was on the last car of a train of old diesel hauled (#2900 series) cars.
I was standing in the last car's vestibule watching the tracks go by with a couple of others. The train was making the usual sounds associated with wooden ties and ballasted roadbed.
As we passed the site of the new Herricks Rd. grade crossing elimination, which has concrete ties on ballasted roadbed, the ride sounded quieter. When we were back to wooden ties, the ride sounded a little noisier.
Can anyone explain this ? The ride was indeed quieter on the concrete ties, not a lot mind you.
Bill "Newkirk"
The harmonics of wood vs. concrete?
When they switched back to wooden ties, did they use spikes, or Pandrol Knuckle clips? On the section of The Market-Frankford Line that's between 2nd and 13th Streets (and this was when we had The A.J.'s), the rails were originally fastened to the half-ties with bolts, and it was much noisier and the train shaked a hell of a lot more, then in '94 they switched to the Pandrol clips and plates, and all of a sudden the train was quieter and was more stable (and used the original rail until '97). Now ever since, whenever SEPTA replaces rail, they use The Pandrol clips.
"When they switched back to wooden ties, did they use spikes, or Pandrol Knuckle clips?"
Don't know Buddtrainz, I didn't take notice of it then. Maybe I'll look next time I'm traveling over that trackage.
Bill "Newkirk"
The problem is that the concrete ties are all uniform while the wooden ties were probably A) older and B) not perfectly the same when new. This means that as the train passes over the wooden ties stuff is bounding around and making noise.
As to the story on the MFL, bolts have a habbit of shaking loose and I think that the Panderol clips were installed with the CWR.
Probably other factors, like CWR, pandrol clips, or the fact that
the track had more recently been tamped up.
Concrete ties are WONDERFUL, if you have a nice deep ballast
shoulder with good subgrade and drainage, just like in the textbook.
Under those conditions they will last 50+ years, which is double
the life expectancy of wood.
If you have a lot of water, or your track isn't well-tamped,
they will quickly crack, and they are a pain in the groin to
spot-change since each one weighs nearly 1/2 ton.
MARTA had to peplace nearly all of its concrete ties a few years ago becuase the company that made them didn't cure them properly and they already started cracking after only 20 years. The new ones in place are supposed to last 50 years. On the upside, MARTA finished replaceing all the ties in about a year, well ahead of schedule. That's one of the reason I like ballast roadbeds better. Try doing something like that with a concrete roadbed.
Well, when you have concrete ties embedded in a concrete roadbed,
are they ties at all? That's called "direct fixation". Archer Ave
ws built like that but I think it has all been ripped out.
No, all the concrete ties replaced were in ballast. I should have made that clearer.
Not all of it was replaced. Some of the sections, like the Northbound track between Sutphin Blvd. and Jamaica - Van Wyck has been replaced, but the rest is still there.
The astute student will note.
1] The more solid a medium , the better it is to conduct sound.
2} With CWR and pandolo clips , the clips are spring type that can rotate in there sockets. The rail also raises and lowers with the presence or absence of the weight of the cars on the rail. Therefore the screws or spikes don't pull loose. The clips flex., so less energy is converted to noise energy, rather mechanical energy.
Tonight's subway question involves the recent James Bond Movie, "The World is Not Enough". It's in two parts - 50 points for each part.
What is the origin/significance of the title in the James Bond lore?
What James Bond movie contained the original reference to "The World Is Not Enough"?
For 50 bonus points, in 13 steps or less, relate this question to something subway relavent.
OK - to the first one who posts the correct answer to both parts, I will send a copy of the 2000 Subway Guide (You send me a stamped, self-addressed envelope). Decision of the judges (that's me) is final.
What's a "Subway Guide?"
will that affect whether you try to answer the question or not?
The subway guide is a53 page (7"x7") booklet describing how the department of subways opertes. It has lots of photos, timelines and rosters.
By the way, I will post the answer to the question between 10 pm & 11 pm tonight.
Tonight's subway question involves the recent James Bond Movie, "The World is Not Enough". It's in two parts - 50 points for each part.
What is the origin/significance of the title in the James Bond lore?
What James Bond movie contained the original reference to "The World Is Not Enough"?
For 50 bonus points, in 13 steps or less, relate this question to something subway relavent.
Just a guess, but I'd say the title is derived from all the past Bond villians who wanted to take over the world - in other words, those guys are mere pikers, today just wanting the world is wimpy.
No, I can't imagine what the subway relevance might be!