 | |
| |
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. What a waste of money!
How do you keep your knuckles from bleeding when you walk?
Mental stimulation does not seem to be your think so let me sugest maybe a Steven Segal film for your next movie going experiance or maybe a cookie cutter John Woo movie. OR you could save yourself some money and just get some shiny pieces of aluminum foil.
While CTHD was NOT a best pucture (go Traffic!) I found it highly entertaining, visually stunning and incredibly creative. It was well worth the price of admission (which I guess was free in my case cause I saw it "in conjunction" with "State and Maine" last January before all the hype made it popular. Or you could say it was $2.50.)
Please tell me some of the other movies you have hated.
-How do you keep your knuckles from bleeding when you walk?
Mental stimulation does not seem to be your think so let me sugest maybe a Steven Segal film for your next movie going experiance or maybe a cookie cutter John Woo movie. OR you could save yourself some money and just get some shiny pieces of aluminum foil.
While CTHD was NOT a best pucture (go Traffic!) I found it highly entertaining, visually stunning and incredibly creative. It was well worth the price of admission (which I guess was free in my case cause I saw it "in conjunction" with "State and Maine" last January before all the hype made it popular. Or you could say it was $2.50.)
Please tell me some of the other movies you have hated.
Mental stimulation?? Fer Chrissakes, the "philosophy" in Crouching Tiger was on a level with the typical fortune cookie. Babble babble babble. And the fighting scenes were utterly ridiculous - Jackie Chan is 500 times more realistic. As far as the "visually stunning" part is concerned, the flying stuff was mildly interesting, the first time I saw it. Then it got boring. The only semi-redeeming part about the movie is that we got to see the girl's nipples when she walked out of the water with wet clothes.
I swear, I'd rather see Exit to Eden and Showgirls, than see Crouching Tiger again.
When you reach the level of rather seeing Battlefied Earth, let me know. I had to walk out of that one, it was so crappy.
-Hank
I have BfE on .asf and I felt that it was funny bad rather than bad bad. I watched it w/ a friend and it started off as boring bad, but it became a non-stop laugh riot in the second half ("Your friendly baaar tender" LOL!). I guess you have to know sci-fi to be able to find BfE funny, but the only way to watch it is MST3K style with loads of comments.
BTW did you note the obsession w/ curtain wipes?
So it's fun if you turn it into the Rocky Horror Picture Show?
-Hank
No no, it's not a clut movie, it's a mock movie. You just sit, watch and make sarcastic comments and laugh histerically. Have you ever seen MST3K?
Yes. Ever been to Rocky Horror? That's what they do. The mocking group attained cult status.
-Hank
Some theatres now show "The Sound of Music" at night where the audience mocks it just the same way they did with "Rocky Horror".
--Mark
I have BfE on .asf and I felt that it was funny bad rather than bad bad. I watched it w/ a friend and it started off as boring bad, but it became a non-stop laugh riot in the second half ("Your friendly baaar tender" LOL!).
Really bad movies sometimes are fun to watch. Plan 9 from Outer Space is the classic of that "genre," with Exit to Eden and Showgirls as worthy contenders.
Showgirls ... yeah, I guess it was Elizabeth Berkley's, ah, "coming out" movie, having done a few years of the NBC series "Saved by the Bell".
--Mark
2010 was a dud 2001 was the the bomb !! stanley krubeck films
2k10 was a reasonable film and I'd give it a 7/10. Of course I'd give 2k01 a 9.5/10.
Well since I like mystical things Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon would be my kind of flick. But I rarely go to the movies. It's expensive. For less than double the price I can pick up the DVD in Chinatown.
Bad movies, how about garbage like "Tomcats" and "The Mexican". Now those are trash movies (just my opinion from what I've seen in TV previews).
Besides I hear the girls in Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon are beautiful. It just puts a big, big spell on me. :-)
But of course a train movie easily beats them all!
It's all a matter of opinion. I think Forrest Gump SUX!!! But my opinion on this is definitely in the minority.
I absolutely loved "Crouching Tiger". It wasn't meant to be a realistic movie, just a mystical one.
Now if you want to talk about movies that REALLY suck, then just bring up any movie starring Pauly Shore. "Jury Duty" was the only movie that I ever walked out on. Blecch!
Jury Duty was actually his BEST effort. You want a bad Pauly Shore movie, try 'Biodome'.
Although the quality significantly improves if you're incredibly drunk (or stoned, I'm told)
-Hank
how about " the attack of the killer tomatoes " & " mothra " .........???????
If you're drunk enough to pass out, it's an even better movie, though merely getting drunk enuogh to the point of ralphing during the film would be a more appropriate critque of Mr. Shore's efforts.
You have no taste.
-Hank
I haven't seen Crouching Tiger... (yet, I plan on it soon), but it must suck; no subway scenes :P.
That said, I saw Someone Like You over the weekend. Nothing inside the subway, as the characters are typical New York-set romantic comedy stock and only travel by cab; however, there's a nice shot of Astor Place with the entrance kiosk, and one sidewalk scene where they walk by "23 Street Station" on the N/R, with ORANGE bullets. Man, these Manhattan Bridge changes are getting confusing :). A pre-1990 RTS crossed in the background in one scene as well.
And, since this is the FilmTalk subthread, I'll say it was predictable, but cute, and the male gender is redeemed at the end, so you don't walk away totally emasculated :).
Keeping the Faith has a couple of brief subway shots, both of which are on R-32s or R-38s at what appears to be Hoyt-Schermerhorn (one of the outer tracks) or possibly Broadway-Lafayette.
I'm sure most of you have seen Ghost...Patrick Swayze, Demi Moore, Whoopi Goldberg. Watched it a couple of nights ago so had to put in a plug.You'd love it, besides the story is excellent which a lot of movies lack.
Lots of R32 and R38 scenes; a little unlikely stuff like Swayze being on a A train in Brooklyn [I guess] and in the same scenario the train he's on is coming out of the Broadway line tunnel at Dyckman, which quickly changes to the scene at Broadway and Myrtle.
If you haven't seen it its great.
Was Ghost the last movie to be filled in the lower level of 42nd St / 8th Ave?
--Mark
I'd have no idea but it was neat to see action thru that station in tne movie. Hopefully someone else can advise.
>>>I haven't seen Crouching Tiger... (yet, I plan on it soon), but it must suck; no subway scenes :P<<<
IMO, it sucks because IT's SUBTITLED and they don't promote this fact. I HATE subtitled movies! Too much work, just don't like 'em.
Peace,
ANDEE
IMO, it sucks because IT's SUBTITLED and they don't promote this fact. I HATE subtitled movies! Too much work, just don't like 'em.
At the theater where my wife and I saw Crouching Tiger (Brookhaven Multiplex, Medford LI), the sign listing movie times said it was subtitled, and the ticket seller mentioned it to us. Guess they've had some complaints. Interestingly, even though the movie is in Mandarin Chinese, two of the stars (Michelle Yeow and the male lead) spoke that language very poorly. While they were coached in it before filming, their accents are said to be very obvious to Mandarin speakers.
Anyway, getting things a bit back on-topic, there was a subway-related blooper of sorts in the movie The Astronaut's Wife, which I saw on video maybe a year ago. I hardly remember anything about the movie except this scene. One character is coming up the steps from a subway entrance when he (or maybe she, that's how little I remember of the movie) sees a couple of people he/she knows talking on the sidewalk. He/she wants to overhear the conversation without being seen. This was possible because there was a solid wall around the sides of the stairway opening, not the open-bar style railings that are actually used. A minor point, I suppose, but it was so clearly wrong that it stuck in my mind.
I seem to recall that the station was supposed to be City Hall on the N/R.
Yes, you are correct about that scene in the astronauts wife, I remember it well, they had some kind of corrugated metal around the entrance to the station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Reading is work for you?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, but I don't go to movies to read.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm not crazy about subtitles either. I prefer my movies to be badly dubbed.
The star of the movie dosen't need a subway--she can fly!
I rather enjoyed the movie myself.
:-) Andrew
Go see "The Joy Luck Club" for another "great movie". Yeecchhh!!
--Mark
Hi:
Does anyone know anything about the database MTA uses to maintain its schedules? I'm trying to create a little database of times for myself to do some comparisons, but trying to parse the PDF schedules into a database is, well, painful.
Does anyone know of other formats for MTA schedules besides the Acrobat files? More importantly, can anyone say what database the MTA uses to maintain its schedules? Is there a contact person for such interests?
Thanks.
Me too. I miss the old HTML tables with ALL the times. I hate the words "5-6 minutes until..."
When it writes every 5 minutes it makes more sense. If every train is at X:X0 and X:X5, it doesn't make sense to list each time. Same thing if it's X:X1 and X:X6 and X:X3 and X:X8 etc.
I have no problems with trains every 5 minutes. My problem is with "timetable" that stateds trains every 4-6 minutes. That goes beyond the simply saving paper; it destroys valuable information.
In the perfect utopia you live in Steve, yes. In the real world, that listing offers valuable information on the variation of service to expect, along with sufficient data for most travelers (except for you, of course) to effectively use the system. Doing more would be more costly than it's worth.
The problem I have with the new schedule information (basically scanning in the paper schedules) is that sometimes it says every 7-8 minutes, every 8-9 minutes, or every 10 minutes.
If you have to be somewhere (ie. work, an appointment of some sort), you need to plan your trip worst case. You probably ought to leave a 5-6 minute margin for error anyway, but beyond that you should be able to arrive at the station a couple of minutes before a scheduled train and be certain of less than a five minute wait. I say, if it's more than every 4-6 minutes, let the passengers know the ETA of every train, at least on line.
Maybe to print it all out. However, in this digital age, there could be an interface to the schedule database.
This presumes (TOs?/Anyone?) that the MTA knows when it is going to dispatch a train out of a yard, what cars it’s going to put into the train and who is going to be the TO & CR.
Now I don’t think that the last two pieces of information should be public (TOs & CRs should have some expectation of privacy) but the rest of the information shouldn’t exactly be secret (and it would give rail fans an excellent opportunity work out where to go to see what trains etc, etc).
The only downside is that it gives people an opportunity to compare schedule to performance and work out just how dismal reality is.
John.
Doing more would be more costly than it's worth.
Actually there is a legal requirement properly enumerate every train in a published schedule. There are additional requirements that the TA also ignores.
"Actually there is a legal requirement properly enumerate every train in a published schedule. There are additional requirements that the TA also ignores. "
Really? Where? Are you sure about that interpretation? Which law school did you say you graduated from?
Actually there is a legal requirement they properly enumerate every train in a published schedule. There are additional requirements that
the TA also ignores. "
Really? Where?
From the NY State Assembly Website
Public Authorities
TITLE 9
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY
S 1204. General powers of the authority.
16-a. The authority shall establish and publish or cause to be published schedules for all passenger transportation services under its operation. Such schedules shall include the estimated departure and arrival time at each terminal point of each route except that, on lines where the headway time during the period between six A.M. and seven P.M. is less than ten minutes, such headway time alone may be listed for that period. Such schedules shall also show the elapsed running time between the terminal and each station. Schedules shall be made available at each facility on the applicable route at which tokens or tickets are sold and shall be posted at each appropriate station operated by the authority.
Which schedules do you think actually fulfill these requirements?
Smells like some savvy constitutional lawyer has an article 78 proceeding to have some fun with. Ah yes, I miss the world of "shall" - service by edict. Not. I can see it now ... "Mr. Kalikow, it is my understanding that a D train from 205th street to Coney Island should perform the run in 72 minutes. Would you care to explain to this panel why it routinely comes in at just over 90?" Oh yeah ... this is a sidewalk act I'd PAY to see. :)
The MTA's schedule already satisfies the requirement. Notice the word "estimated." You're blowing smoke (and hot air).
The law mentions "headway time" singular not plural. "Every 4-6 minutes" does not fit this definition. "Every 5 minutes" does. I am not adverse to saving paper so long as information is not destroyed.
The law also requires that the elapsed time to every station be included. Only a few TA schedules provide such information - such as those for shuttle lines.
I don't see a problem with it. But I'm willing to let an attorney (someone with training and expertise in this) explain it.
How about a law student's view? I posed the question of interpretation to my daughter (a first-year law student at Georgetown) and she agrees with you, Ron. It was a quick discussion without resorting to serious research - she just called to discuss Passover plans and I snuck the question in before handing the phone to my wife.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you! And without having to sign a retainer letter!
Happy Passover, and Easter to all!
[Which schedules do you think actually fulfill these requirements?]
Under the MTA, The timetables for the railroads (LIRR, MNCR, SIR), and those for the shuttle lines (42, FA, RP). In the late 1970's, timetables were published. They were about the size of those individual station LIRR timetables (wallet-sized). They listed the departure times from the terminal and the elapsed running time between stations. They carried some advertisements, too. My aunt has one for the D and one for the E. Sadly, they are no more.
Now there are these monstrosities of schedules that don't even tell when a southbound A train will leave 191st Street bound for Far Rockaway! In fact, you would need TWO shedules to figure that out! Same thing for the F! If I'm at Union Turnpike going to 4th Avenue and want to know when the train will get there, I also have to look at two different schedules. Then there's that annoying "Then every x to y minutes until" that drives everyone nuts when your train is listed on one and falls under this "curse" on the other! It's crazy, I tell you! Why even bother printing two different schedules? The way I see it, one line, one schedule brochure. Simple as that. Better yet, you could compile all those timetables into a book and distribute that throughout the system. The way they should do it is the way the railroads should do it: List every stop, list every train. If trains leave at an interval that is less than 10 minutes, then it's OK to say (then every 10 minutes until...) Never use a range (every x to y minutes until...) It just makes absoulutely no sense whatsoever!
They used to (the 1997 edition was the last) have a table showing the travel time between any two stops on the line. I miss those, but 8 minutes from Continental to Sutphin / Archer seems a tad fantastic to me (the only value I remember).
The HBLR doesn't fulfill this. They do have the full timetable but it is only put in station signs, not in the customer things. Toilet paper is a better use for the customer timetable than planning a trip.
BTW: The Rockaway Park A has a complete schedule showing all five trains with departure times from 59, 42, W4, Chambers, Jay, Rockaway Blvd, and all stops Broad Channel to Rock Pk.
Stephen has a valid point, but somehow you enjoy ignoring it...
BTW don't remember you published lately!
Arti
"Stephen has a valid point, but somehow you enjoy ignoring it..."
I'm not ignoring it. I'm specifically challenging it. Steve makes an assertion without providing evidence. Let him prove it.
I forget the name of it, but the LIRR uses a commercial "schedule maker" database program. It probably figures the even more complicated crew assignments as well as the train times.
My experience with specialized database software suggests that it would be inaccessible to ordinary mortals without a lot of railroad cooperation (not just access to the raw data, but access to the program). I'd love to take a look at it myself.
"I forget the name of it, but the LIRR uses a commercial "schedule maker" database program. It probably figures the even more complicated crew assignments as well as the train times.
My experience with specialized database software suggests that it would be inaccessible to ordinary mortals without a lot of railroad cooperation (not just access to the raw data, but access to the program). I'd love to take a look at it myself."
There's a company called Ascent Technology in Boston that used AI to help airlines assign aircraft to gates. The idea was that an average airline could save $100,000 a day in jet fuel because the plane didn't taxi as much coming off the runway. It worked, but developing it cost a hell of a lot...
Yes, but if the software cost $10m, then one airline could amortize this in less than a year (somewhere between 100-300 days, depending on the interest rate).
Multiple airlines could amortize this in less time, and also the jet fuel is significant! It’s a non-renewable resource (as opposed to programmers :-))
John.
Pardon me if this has been discussed before.
I just read the NY Daily News Online reports of subway overcrowding, and noticed an unusual story. A woman deliberately takes four - I said FOUR - trains to work in her morning commute! Starting on the R at Rego Park, she changes to the F at Roosevelt-Jackson, then the B somewhere on 6th Ave., and finally the 1/9 at Columbus to 116 St.
HUH?!
I'm sure all of these trains, and their platforms, are crowded. Why go through all that when she can use half as many trains? Why not stay on the R to Times Sq. and transfer directly to the IRT? Changing to an express at Roosevelt doesn't save any time if she takes two trains after that. If she must avoid the Square, she can take that F to 14 St. and change to the 1/9 there. Or, how about taking that B to 116 and walking? Or, get the E at Roosevelt instead, and then the C at 50 or 42?
She can't have much of a problem with walking, since she chooses to change crowded trains so often...
Of course, her destination may be west of B'way at 116, which would be a hike from the IND (and in a so-called "bad area"). But still, I'd rather deal with Times Sq. than to take four trains.
Keep in mind that 116th on the IRT and 116th on the IND are in different worlds. They're separated by a significant change in elevation via a scary park.
That said, if she doesn't want the local in Queens, she should take the E directly to 42nd and catch the IRT there. If she doesn't want the long walk, she should change to the B/D downstairs at 7th Avenue -- four trains, but less out of the way than the F. Assuming rush hours, even transferring at 53rd and Madison to the M4 Limited is worth consideration.
The real problem is that, north of 42nd Street, the 1/2/3/9 is effectively isolated from other lines. There's 59th, but that's only a local stop; past that, the only transfer point in Manhattan is way up at 168th. Even at 42nd, the IND transfer is through a long passageway.
The lines are also arranged under the assumption that no one is going from Queens north in Manhattan. On the East Side, conventional transfers take care of the problem, and the IND has 7th Avenue (which was stupidly built with all southbound trains on one level and all northbound and Queens-bound trains on the other, so everybody has to go downstairs to transfer), but, except the 7, all the Queens lines turn south before meeting the 1/9.
The TA could easily install a three-way transfer between 7th Avenue on the B/D/E, 50th Street on the 1/9, and 49th Street on the N/R, which would at least help somewhat.
Notice, also, that my proposal of running the 2nd Avenue line across 125th Street would have helped a great deal. She could take the R or E/F to 2nd and then zip straight up to 125th and Broadway, where she could either walk to 116th (it's actually over a half-mile since 125th slants northward as it approaches the Hudson) or transfer to the 1/9 or the M4/M104 to complete her trip.
What I find oddest of all is that someone who works at or near Columbia lives in Queens. Why put yourself through that agony?
What if you were already living in Queens and got a nice offer to work in one of Columbia U's high-tech startups? The Audubon Center (168th St) is full of them. If you didn't want to move, or couldn't relocate right away, you do what you have to do.
I was negotiating with a start-up firm there at one time. It was very nice to see what kinds of positive things that place has done for the immediate neighborhood.
Maybe I should have asked why anyone would want to live in Queens to begin with.
[Maybe I should have asked why anyone would want to live in Queens begin with.]
Maybe I should answer: it's because there are some people who (gasp!) actually cannot afford Manhattan. The Columbia University area is so expensive - the AVERAGE co-op apartment costs $500+ per square foot - that most Columbia faculty can't even afford to live there.
My grin somehow vanished. (Yes, I entified my angle brackets. They got unentified without asking my permission.)
My (earlier) point was simply that, seeing how painful the commute is from most of Queens to the Columbia area, Queens is a silly place to live for someone who has to commute there. Morningside Heights may be out of reach for many, but that's where the subway steps in. Even without resorting(!) to the subway, I'm sure there are inexpensive apartments available a few blocks north and/or east of Columbia, in easy walking distance.
Most of Manhattan is for the wealthy except Harlem and the lower East side.
Everything north of 110th Street is Harlem now?
The sad fact of life is that Manhattan is fast becoming an ultra-exclusive enclave. Did you read where Barbra Streisand is having trouble selling her CPW apartment? Not because no one can match her asking price (several people have), but because the building's co-op board keeps rejecting prospective tenants. No one's "Good Enough" to live there! Mariah Carey offered $8 million for the unit, but was turned down because of her friendships with rappers. More recently, an "ordinary businessman" was also spurned. As a result, the value of Streisand's unit has steadily declined. I have a feeling that if Jesus himself were resurrected, and applied for the apartment, he would be turned down due to his prior association with a known "woman of ill repute..."
And now that Rudy and Disney have trained their sights on Harlem, the gentrification process will move north of 116 St.
I have a feeling that if Jesus himself were resurrected, and applied for the apartment, he would be turned down due to his prior association with a known "woman of ill repute..."
And co-op board would never accept the long hair and beard.
Nonsense.
Much as many around here detest it, rent control assures economic diversity even in the most desirable neighborhoods.
How do you define "wealthy"? Is the middle class "wealthy"? Not all of Manhattan is Park Avenue.
Even without rent control, I know many recent college graduates, just entering the work force, who have moved to the Upper West Side and Upper East Side. Surely they're not wealthy (at least not yet)! They generally share small apartments on the side streets. And what about those who haven't even graduated yet -- the students at the various colleges and universities in Manhattan?
Please, take a look around Manhattan -- all of it -- before making sweeping claims about it.
Even without rent control, I know many recent college graduates, just entering the work force, who have moved to the Upper West Side and Upper East Side. Surely they're not wealthy (at least not yet)! They generally share small apartments on the side streets. And what about those who haven't even graduated yet -- the students at the various colleges and universities in Manhattan?
But sharing's not for everyone. It might seem okay at age 22, but at 32 it's a different story.
Marriage?
It doesn't seem right at 22 either. Considering how much more a two-bedroom costs compared to a studio, it makes more sense to rent a studio alone.
But then again, people who dorm in college share a room with someone else, and a bathroom with 20 other people.
How do you define "wealthy"? Is the middle class "wealthy"? Not all of Manhattan is Park Avenue.
To him, $50,000 a year is wealthy.
Much as many around here detest it, rent control assures economic diversity even in the most desirable neighborhoods.
It's price-fixing, and it GUARANTEES a shortage of good housing, except for those who have connections.
I never claimed otherwise.
Um........I lived in Greenwich Village for 24 years on West 11th Street. When I got my first place in Kew Gardens, it felt like living in the country. It's nice to not have any noise from police cars and intoxicated persons at 3 am.
I love Queens. And I'll never live in Manhattan ever again.
As far as the crazy commuting woman goes, the question shouldn't be why she lives in Queens, the question should be why the woman would accept a job with a hellish commute in the first place.
As far as the crazy commuting woman goes, the question shouldn't be why she lives in Queens, the question should be why the woman would accept a job with a hellish commute in the first place.
Maybe for the reason I accepted a job in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey back in 1993, even though I lived 100 miles away in Connecticut - it was a very good offer.
>>>Maybe for the reason I accepted a job in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey back in 1993, even though I lived 100 miles away in Connecticut - it was a very good offer.<<<
Obviously you had a car unlike Madam Wacko.
Obviously you had a car unlike Madam Wacko.
In 1979, I used to commute from Ringwood, NJ (about 80-90 minutes away from the Port Authority Bus Terminal) to 193rd St. in Jamaica. Now that was a hellish commute. But it gave me a job doing the work I was good at, when I needed a job urgently (I'd just been RIF'd from a job in Manhattan unexpectedly). I kept it for over a year, and then got another job back in Manhattan.
I've been commuting from North Carolina to New Jersey for over five years now - 465 miles one way. Of course, I don't do it every day, or even every week, but it's still a long commute when I do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And a friend of mine frequently has to commute from Baltimore to Providence RI by plane, often with only a few hours' notice. It's only an hour on a non-stop, but still a pain in the tail. This has happened at least once a week since February. She had never flown before then!
But to take four crowded subway trains twice each day, five days a week, would be hell on earth even for a railfan.
[R to the F to the B to the 1/9]
WOW. That poor lady might actually do better by bus: She could take the Q72 north on Junction Blvd, then change at 94th Street & 23rd Avenue for the M60 directly to the Columbia campus. The only drawbacks are the loop through LaGuardia Airport (toward Manhattan) and the Triborough Bridge (both directions).
The rush hour M60 is awful -- lots of rude fare beaters in Queens (IME) and a very slow ride across 125th Street.
There is a technical term for this woman.................it's called BRAIN DEAD!
Wait - wouldn't the easiest thing be to stay on the R and change to the 1 at Times Square? So you go local. BIG DEAL! She'd still get there in half the time probably, when you factor in waiting time for the express and the other trains.
There is a technical term for this woman.....
RAILFAN IN THE MAKING.
Who else'd take 4 trains when one simple transfer
would do just fine?
No way... no railfan would ditch an R-46 on the F for an R-68 on the B.
Says you! I'd probably go with the R68, all other things being equal.
Though neither the 68 nor 46 is much fun for subfanning.
:-) Andrew
No railfan would board the R46 to begin with. A true railfan -- and anyone going her way who can read a subway map -- would take the E instead of the F.
I didn't read the article, but when going to the upper west side from central Queens, I always found it made sense to change at Roosevelt from the E/F to the 7. That transfer's a bit of a hassle, but then there's a nice easy transfer between the 7 and 1/2/3/9, which beats the hell out of the loooooooong walf between 8th and 7th. I suppose the R makes sense too. Maybe I just like the IRT. And OK, you bring it up to four trains by using the 2/3 to 96th, but that saves you time.
:-D Andrew
I haven't done that 7 - 1/2/3/9 transfer at rush hour lately. Now that the redundant staircases have been closed off, how bad are the crowds?
A little worse, I'd say. but it's still a far easier transfer between the (1)(2)(3)(9) and the (7) than the (E) or the (F), which require either a long walk or an intermediate transfer. And even the (N)(R) to the (1)(2)(3)(9) requires two seperate stair climbs--from the platform to the mezanine then to the other platform.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, but how many sets of stairs is she using on her current ride? Okay, the R to the F is across the platform. But the F to the B involves two sets of stairs (downtown to uptown), and then the B to the 1/9 is at least one more set. Not to mention crowded platforms and trains all the way. What's she gonna do when Queens Blvd. gets turned every which way but crazy come July?
Hell...if she has an unlimited Metrocard she can take that R to 49 St/7 Av, exit the system, walk the short block to B'way, and get the 1/9 at 50 St. That's still better than those four trains (except in bad weather), and likely a LOT quicker. But I'd just deal with the transfer at TSQ.
Yeah, but how many sets of stairs is she using on her current ride? Okay, the R to the F is across the platform. But the F to the B involves two sets of stairs (downtown to uptown), and then the B to the 1/9 is at least one more set. Not to mention crowded platforms and trains all the way. What's she gonna do when Queens Blvd. gets turned every which way but crazy come July?
Hell...if she has an unlimited Metrocard she can take that R to 49 St/7 Av, exit the system, walk the short block to B'way, and get the 1/9 at 50 St. That's still better than those four trains (except in bad weather), and likely a LOT quicker. But I'd just deal with the transfer at TSQ.
In the subway film documentary it says their is a scene with 2 characters that meet @ a station on the Flushing Line El. The car used in that scene was R22 #7449 painted in Whitebird. Were some R22 running on the #7 line back around the mid-1980s when the film debuted?
I'm assuming this is the last part of their series that began in last Sunday's paper. Even Gene Russianoff is pretty kind to the MTA in his quote, and some of the solutions proposed are pretty common sense. But I'm waiting to see how they implement Solution No. 5 on the list.
Experts map out subway solutions
[I'm assuming this is the last part of their series that began in last Sunday's paper. Even Gene Russianoff is pretty kind to the MTA in his quote, and some of the solutions proposed are pretty common sense. But I'm waiting to see how they implement Solution No. 5 on the list.]
I'm struck by the fact that they're still discarding cars!
"The TA already has ordered more than 1,700 new subway cars, many to replace decades-old rigs, as part of a plan to increase its fleet by 415 cars over the the next four years."
And in the article it links to, they complain about Queens corridor capacity, without mentioning that the MTA runs 600' instead of 660' trains, and the 15 mph curve in front of GCT. Why sould a 15 mph zone slow down traffic?
Then there are the usual gripes about the passengers. Door holding aside, I don't see how you are going to change the behavior of people who are packed like sardines.
Well, one of the reccomendations was to save more of the Redbirds than currently planned in order to increase capacity (at least on the A Division).
As for the 660 foot option, Charlie Patterson and the TA cast the die against that back in 1958 when they decided from now on all cars would come in married pairs (R-33WFs excepted), which meant all the 60-foot cars delivered to the B Division between 1960 and 1970 could only be run in multiples of 120-foot lengths. The only singles delivered to the B Division since then were the R-68s, and that wouldn't help on Queens Blvd., because a nine-car train of R-68s would come in at 675 feet.
The only singles delivered to the B Division since then were the R-68s, and that wouldn't help on Queens Blvd., because a nine-car train of R-68s would come in at 675 feet.]
One possibility that we discussed here a while back would be to run 75 car trains in the 660 foot station, original IRT style with a 7-1/2 foot overhang at each end.
Another possibility--run 12 60' cars, and leave the last one empty.
Then again, they could order some 60' singles . . .
Ordering single cars with full cab controls significantly increases the cost of purchasing new subway fleets, and (esp. with full-width cabs) reduces seating capacity per car.
Ordering single cars with full cab controls significantly increases the cost of purchasing new subway fleets, and (esp. with full-width cabs) reduces seating capacity per car.
There are two issues here that are not related: do full width cabs reduce passenger capacity and do single unit cars really cost more. The answer to both is no.
I recall that the HV's had full width cabs. However these cabs would fold up, when they were not required. It is not impossible to imagine a similar design that would permit a half-width or full-width fold up cab. Such a system would occupy only 2 cab widths on a conventional TO/CR train and still permit OPTO.
There are costs associated with married-unit cars in addition to initial purchase price and maintenance. BTW the official TA reason for going to married pairs was weight reduction not cost reduction (1964). The additional costs are decreased availability and lack of flexibility.
The flexibility issue is quite dramatic in a system that has as much merging and diverging as NYC. The only way to avoid switching delays is to schedule equal frequencies. Similarly, minimum dwell times are obtained with equal load factors between trains. Not all branches require full train length trains for equal load factors. A case in point, with single unit cars can be seen from the IND services in the early 1950's.
The A and D expresses each ran 15 tph, 10-car trains. The BB and CC locals each ran 15 tph but the CC ran 10-car trains between Bedford Park and Bway-Lafayette and the BB ran 8-car trains between 168th and 34th St. This permitted the a no-delay merge between the A&D and the BB&CC at 145th as well as a no-delay merge between the BB&D at 59th.
With married pairs or link bars, both the BB and CC would have to be full length despite the demand on CPW and despite the BB having only 2 stations to itself. This means that either 2 unnecessary would have to be added to every BB or that the frequencies would have to be adjusted to include scheduled switching delays. Either way this represents a requirement for additional cars to maintain the same service level. These costs are not included in the TA's equation. They would not make management look good.
as usual, you freely dispense criticism while ignoring the weaknesses of your own plan.
A folding cab sounds interesting. How much extra would that cost in terms of car redesign? More to the point, why pay for additional electronics (a very significant part of any new car, airplane, train etc.) when you don't have to?
There are limitations to flexibility, it's true - but how much time is spent breaking and reforming trains to do that, and how much of that "flexibility" is a chore that eats more time and resources than it's worth?
"There are costs associated with married-unit cars in addition to initial purchase price and maintenance. BTW the official TA reason for going to married pairs was weight reduction not cost reduction (1964)."
Hey Steve, you're slipping! You don't mind using 1964 data when you have 1957 data handy! Why not use cost figures from 1940?
The fact is, starting from the 1970's and beyond, subway car design included a lot of electronics that didn't exist in 1964. This was true of the R-44 and R-46, even though they were never used as intended. It is also true of the R-142's. So the MTA's gained significant cost savings by using married pairs this way.
Not looking at the big picture doesn't make Mr. Baumann look very good.
A folding cab sounds interesting. How much extra would that cost in terms of car redesign?
Halfable cabs are standard on transit systems around the world. The Philly BSS, DC Metro, Metroliner EMU's and all DMU's class 158 and lower in the UK have halfable cabs. All it requires is a two position door.
The R-62 even has a two position door, and even allows the open half of the cab to be folded into the remainder of the cabin.
A folding cab sounds interesting. How much extra would that cost in terms of car redesign?
The idea is that it is designed into the cars as ordered. That's how the IRT did it. It does not cost any more that way.
More to the point, why pay for additional electronics (a very significant part of any new car, airplane, train etc.) when you don't have to?
There has been very little electronics until the current orders. This is one of the reasons the TA designs are so expensive. They would still use 60 year old technology, if they could find somebody who still supply it.
"There are costs associated with married-unit cars in addition to initial purchase price and maintenance. BTW the official TA reason for going to married pairs was weight reduction not cost reduction (1964)."
Hey Steve, you're slipping! You don't mind using 1964 data when you have 1957 data handy! Why not use cost figures from 1940?
The reason I cited 1964 is because the TA published some insight into their thinking on this subject at that time. You or anyone else can verify my statement by going through the NY Times advertising supplement that the TA sponsored just prior to the opening of the Worlds Fair.
The fact is, starting from the 1970's and beyond, subway car design included a lot of electronics that didn't exist in 1964. This was
true of the R-44 and R-46, even though they were never used as intended.
Most industries have experienced significant cost savings by using electronics in their designs.
"Most industries have experienced significant cost savings by using electronics in their designs."
You're showing off your ignorance here, Steve. Industries have saved money in the manufacturring process, but the proportion of a product's purchase price taken by electronics has shot up tremendously. For example, the avionics packages on modern aircraft can cost as much as the aircraft itself. They improve the aircraft's performance, and their efficiency of use, but not their purchase price. Ditto for subway trains. And this trend began in the late 1960's.
Industries have saved money in the manufacturring process, but the proportion of a product's purchase price taken by electronics has shot up tremendously. For example, the avionics packages on modern aircraft can cost as much as the aircraft itself.
You have to distinguish between cost and functionality. The cost of individual electronic components has gone down. It has gone so far down that functions that would have been too expensive to implement decades ago are now routinely implemented. So, previously if function X cost $100 and function Y cost $1 million then only function X was implemented. Today function X costs $50 and function Y costs $5,000 and both are implemented.
Aircraft cost is a good example. Airbus recognized the cost savings of "fly by wire" technology over hydraulic lines; Boeing did not. That is the principle reason why Airbus has been able to beat Boeing in price.
"You have to distinguish between cost and functionality. The cost of individual electronic components has gone down. It has gone so far down that functions that would have been too expensive to implement decades ago are now routinely implemented. So, previously if function X cost $100 and function Y cost $1 million then only function X was implemented. Today function X costs $50 and function Y costs $5,000 and both are implemented."
Electronic components are cheaper, assuming that the buyer does not impose additional requirements which increase costs. But software development has gotten more expensive - because we still write code by hand. The USS Nautilus, cerca 1955, probably had a handful of lines of assembler or machine code. The USS Seawolf, cerca 2000, has a billion lines of Ada code in it. And then there is the cost of testing. The R-142's announcements don't work correctly because not enough time or care was spent debugging programs. That's where the cost is.
It would be interesting to see how much Kawasaki spent to write the software in the R-143.
But software development has gotten more expensive - because we still write code by hand. The USS Nautilus, cerca 1955, probably had a handful of lines of assembler or machine code. The USS Seawolf, cerca 2000, has a billion lines of Ada code in it.
Military programming is quite different than civilian programming. First off, they require at least two completely different sets of programs to perform each function and an arbiter for resolving differences. This alone more than doubles development costs. The second problem is that they use ADA, which reduces the supply of programmers.
The R-142's announcements don't work correctly because not enough time or care was spent debugging programs.
No, there is a systemic problem. The R-142 announcement rely on dead-reckoning to determine location. Dead reckoning systems need a method to periodically re-establish an accurate position in order to be effective. The bus system employed by LI Bus uses the GPS system and encounters no such problem so long as they remain in radio contact.
It would be interesting to see how much Kawasaki spent to write the software in the R-143.
Despite such expenses, the overall cost for equivalent requirements is cheaper when amortized over the quantity of the order. This may be a closer call with subway car orders because of the small number of cars. They will never be able to shrink wrap it and sell it for $50.
"Military programming is quite different than civilian programming. First off, they require at least two completely different sets of programs to perform each function and an arbiter for resolving differences. This alone more than doubles development costs. The second problem is that they use ADA, which reduces the supply of programmers."
That is true, but the cost of civilian programming has gone up as well, even when you amortize. Software is a much larger proportion of new systems - it's more capable, and gives you greater functions, but it'smore expensive - there's no getting around it.
"No, there is a systemic problem. The R-142 announcement rely on dead-reckoning to determine location. Dead reckoning systems need a method to periodically re-establish an accurate position in order to be effective. The bus system employed by LI Bus uses the GPS system and encounters no such problem so long as they remain in radio contact."
Again, a software debugging problem. You're comparing an apple to a banana. The subway runs on fixed tracks, with fixed stations. You don't need GPS for that. If part of the "debugging" includes getting feedback directly from the train's axles, fine. So you rewrite some of the code and patch in a little hardware.
The subway runs on fixed tracks, with fixed stations. You don't need GPS for that. If part of the "debugging" includes getting feedback directly from the train's axles, fine.
The R-142's position calculator runs off the tachometer which is feedback directly from the train's axles. There are 2 error sources.
First, this system does not account for wheel slippage.
Second, the system does not account for tread wear. The R-142 wheels are 34" in diameter. A wear of only 100 mils represents an error of 0.3%. A train is expected to travel approximately 6500 miles (78,000 feet) per month. The expected deviation due to wear is 234 feet per month. Trains are inspected every 2 months, so if the positioning device is not re-zeroed the rev counter position indicator will miss a station.
CBTC systems rely on individual trains accurately knowing their position. They have "beacons" that automatically recalibrate the positioner at key locations along the route. This reduces the error to that accumulated between beacons. This can be held to around 0.01". The NYCT does not employ such correcting devices.
[. But software development has gotten more expensive - because we still write code by hand.]
1. Software developement is a fixed cost and doesn't change regardless of how many times you implement it, sort of you arguing against yourself here :-)
2. Software is less written "by hand" novadays then in the past. RAD, computer aided software development, etc. I'll bet that those billion lines of ADA code in your maritime example were mostly machine generated.
Arti
Aircraft cost is a good example. Airbus recognized the cost savings of "fly by wire" technology over hydraulic lines; Boeing did not. That is the principal reason why Airbus has been able to beat Boeing in price.
Is this also perhaps the reason that Airbus jets have a significantly higher crash rate (per takeoff/landing cycle, which is considered to be the real test of aircraft age) than Boeing? I don't know, just speculating...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Airbus has had some computer problems where the computer would override the pilot trying to pull up when the computer thought they were on an attitude that would cause a stall. The computer always wins those arguments ...
I know it's not traditionally done, but is there any reason not to allow passengers to sit (and/or stand) in cabs that aren't in use? Presumably all the controls are disabled, so why not leave the door open?
In a word....Vandalism
But that's a problem everywhere on the train.
It costs more to replace a control panel than it does to replace a window or seat...doesn't it?
It costs more to replace a control panel than it does to replace a window or seat...doesn't it?
That depends on the control panel design. There are two philosophies for such design: make a cheap easily replaceable panel or build a fortress. The conductors' panels on the old BMT standards, which you may recall were in plain site in the middle of the car, definitely adhered to the latter philosophy.
I've designed equipment that had to be "bullet-proof" both front and back. It can be done and it's not excessively expensive.
PATH also has exposed control panels that would ascribe to the BMT line of thinking.
Peace,
ANDEE
So install locking panels to cover anything that might be stolen or vandalized. Locking the entire cab is a waste of space.
[Locking the entire cab is a waste of space.]
You know, I never really thought about this, but of course you're right. What surprises me is that the MTA apparently didn't either. What more obvious way to add a bit of space to a train?
Back in ye olde days of the SIRT (pre-1972 arrival of the R-44s), they used to do that, but AFAIK no transit system in the NY metro area has done it since then.
in the last two car orders C(1's) and C 2's BART has the left half of the transverse cab open as standee space when the car is in midtrain use.
CTA does the same thing on its trains. I've even seen C/O's open up the left-hand side of the front cab on Brown Line trains at Fullerton during morning rush hours, as all the remaining stops from there to the Loop have platforms on the right-hand side of the train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>Presumably all the controls are disabled, so why not leave the door open? <<<
All the controls are not disabled, HVAC controls, PA system, lights, end door switches and other circuit breakers are all still active.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hate the full-width cab. It is a waste of money, has no practical purpose and sucks for railfans. (T/O's who put newspaper there so we can't look out, you know who you are.....)
"I hate the full-width cab. It is a waste of money, has no practical purpose and sucks for railfans."
To be fair to both sides of the issue, it offers the TO more room to do his/her job, offers better visibility of track and platform without pesky railfans getting in the way (hey, I'm a railfan), allows additional personnel (supervisor or trainee or whatever) to be in the cab too. The MTA probably has other reasons for liking it, which I am not familiar with.
I do like the railfan window. But I'll survive without it (sigh).
[To be fair to both sides of the issue, it offers the TO more room to do his/her job, offers better visibility of track and platform without pesky railfans getting in the way (hey, I'm a railfan), allows additional personnel (supervisor or trainee or whatever) to be in the cab too. The MTA probably has other reasons for liking it, which I am not familiar with.]
I thought they went to the full length cabs to permit OPTO during off-peak hours (then didn't use it).
[Ordering single cars with full cab controls significantly increases the cost of purchasing new subway fleets, and (esp. with full-width cabs) reduces seating capacity per car.]
The single cars would only need full cab controls if you put the extra car in the middle or at the end.
Going to 660' trains makes sense only if it can be done with no additional capital or labor costs - other than those associated with the car itself. This is not the case.
Not all lines can handle 660' trains - even in the late 1950's - only the original IND stations. This is why the D went to Coney Island, instead of the F, when the Culver became an IND line. This means that substantial station rebuilding will be necessary.
According to the 1957 arbitrator's ruling, 660' trains require two conductors. Couple the extra cars together and run them as separate trains. There's more than 10% more track capacity available on all lines.
[Going to 660' trains makes sense only if it can be done with no additional capital or labor costs - other than those associated with the car itself. This is not the case.
Not all lines can handle 660' trains - even in the late 1950's - only the original IND stations. This is why the D went to Coney Island, instead of the F, when the Culver became an IND line. This means that substantial station rebuilding will be necessary.
According to the 1957 arbitrator's ruling, 660' trains require two conductors. Couple the extra cars together and run them as separate trains. There's more than 10% more track capacity available on all lines.]
Certainly, one should use the lines to full capacity before going to the expense of adding additional cars.
Meanwhile, with the possible exception of the Jamaica extension, the stations that experience the worst crush are on the original portion of the IND -- so just close down the extra car when it has to run on the BMT or new stations.
As to the arbitrator's decision, I won't say what I think because it would probably down Subtalk again. Suffice it to say that times have changed.
Or they could extend the platforms to 720' much as the BMT Broadway platforms were stretched in the late sixties for 600' trains. Meanwhile a 675' train with one doorset locked off at each end should fit. Amazing the cheap incremental things not done.
[Or they could extend the platforms to 720' much as the BMT Broadway platforms were stretched in the late sixties for 600' trains. Meanwhile a 675' train with one doorset locked off at each end should fit. Amazing the cheap incremental things not done.]
Isn't it? It seems that if it doesn't cost $1 billion they won't consider it.
"Or they could extend the platforms to 720' much as the BMT Broadway platforms were stretched in the late sixties for 600' trains. Meanwhile a 675' train with one doorset locked off at each end should fit. Amazing the cheap incremental things not done."
That's not a bad solution..
Wait a minute. Cars have three or four doors on each side. Not all need to platform. An extra car could be added to the trains on any line by allowing one or two doors to dangle off each end of the platform.
[Wait a minute. Cars have three or four doors on each side. Not all need to platform. An extra car could be added to the trains on any line by allowing one or two doors to dangle off each end of the platform.]
That's what we've been saying!
The IRT originally ran that way, and you could run 11 car, 675' trains on the IND by doing the same. It's not ideal -- which is why the IRT ended the practice -- but it's a good stopgap if you want to run full length trains on the E and F.
[Even Gene Russianoff is kind to the MTA in his quote, and some of the solutions proposed are pretty common sense.]
Yes, but remember two things:
1. Russianoff, quite predictably, refuses to offer a way of doing any of those things (especially his fifth item) or paying for them.
2. Implementation by Transit will deprive Straphangers of things to complain about. Russianoff will then sue under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, claiming a conspiracy to put him out of business. (He almost stopped the five-year Capital Programs that way.)
[Russianoff, quite predictably, refuses to offer a way of doing any of those things (especially his fifth item) or paying for them.]
OK, how about
--Explaining why the MTA is throwing away cars rather than using them
--Explaining why the MTA can't achieve service levels routinely achieved in years past and on other transit systems, even though ridership is still significantly below historical levels
--Eliminating unnecessary token clerks
--Going to OPTO
--Eliminating inefficient work rules and bloated pensions
--Raising the fare
--Reducing the ridiculous commuter RR subsidies
--Diverting some money from the salaries of several hundred thousand social workers
--Diverting some money from the billion dollars a year New York State spends on training twice as many doctors as it needs
--Bringing government expenditures in the State and City into line with expenditures in other localities, particularly Medicaid expenditures
--Privatizing Health and Hospitals, public housing, and anything else that can be done more efficiently by non-profit agencies or private enterprise
--Restoring the commuter tax
--Letting Nassau County put its own house in order
--Explaining why it costs New York State 3 times as much as private enterprise to build a given structure
--Explaining why it costs over $1 billion/mile to build a subway here and only $250 million/mile in California
--Explaining why hundreds of thousands of people are forced to subsist on welfare when they could be fixing our decrepit schools or building new subways
--Explaining why out of a combined budget of $100 billion or so New York City and New York State can't come up with the money to fix the transit system
Etc. . . . (end rant)
--Explaining why the MTA is throwing away cars rather than using them
The MTA is buying more R-142s than they are throwing away Redbirds. Too many Redbirds are already falling apart to keep them.
--Explaining why the MTA can't achieve service levels routinely achieved in years past and on other transit systems, even though ridership is still significantly below historical levels
It isn't significantly below historical records. An all-time high for annual ridership has recently been reached.
--Eliminating unnecessary token clerks
--Going to OPTO
--Eliminating inefficient work rules and bloated pensions
--Raising the fare
God forbid people should pay as much as they're getting!
--Reducing the ridiculous commuter RR subsidies
Commuter RR subsidies have some merit. If a railroad ticket that now costs $7 costed $14, many people would just drive to Manhattan and pay to park there. If this is to change, then EVERYTHING (roads and parking) should be charged realistically through user fees.
Of course, the best solution would be to eliminate the road subsidies which have allowed the fungus that is suburbia to grow over the past fifty years. Whenever people have fled the cities, that has always coincided with the fall of civilization.
--Diverting some money from the billion dollars a year New York State spends on training twice as many doctors as it needs
Yet of all the healthcare spending in New York, we are near the bottom of expenditures for ooctors and nurses, the most important players in the game.
--Letting Nassau County put its own house in order
I say abolish Nasty County and return the area to its pre-1899 state.
--Explaining why it costs New York State 3 times as much as private enterprise to build a given structure
Why does this need to be explained? Doesn't everybody know about graft?
--Explaining why it costs over $1 billion/mile to build a subway here and only $250 million/mile in California
Not to mention that that subway was decried as costly!
--Explaining why hundreds of thousands of people are forced to subsist on welfare when they could be fixing our decrepit schools or building new subways
This is the Twenty-first century, people shouldn't have to work for a living in this day and age!
If this is to change, then EVERYTHING (roads and parking) should be charged realistically through user fees.
Bingo! (Subways, too.)
Of course, the best solution would be to eliminate the road subsidies which have allowed the fungus that is suburbia to grow over the past fifty years. Whenever people have fled the cities, that has always coincided with the fall of civilization.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one proposing this.
Bravo! I like your way of thinking.
[The MTA is buying more R-142s than they are throwing away Redbirds. Too many Redbirds are already falling apart to keep them.]
I understand the problem, but it seems to me they should keep them running until they have enough cars to end the shortage -- and even then, they should be mothballed rather than discarded, just in case.
[It isn't significantly below historical records. An all-time high for annual ridership has recently been reached.]
Are you sure? I was under the impression that ridership used to be a good deal higher.
[Commuter RR subsidies have some merit. If a railroad ticket that now costs $7 costed $14, many people would just drive to Manhattan and pay to park there. If this is to change, then EVERYTHING (roads and parking) should be charged realistically through user fees.]
Well, I'm for eliminating the subsidies and charging realistically.
But my main problem with the commuter RR subsidies is that they come at the expense of efficiency. It seems that LIRR employees work a lot less and get paid a lot more than people who do the same jobs at NYC Transit.
[Why does this need to be explained? Doesn't everybody know about graft?]
A lot of it I think is legal graft on the part of the State Legislature & other politicians, e.g., that amazing law that prohibits government from hiring a general contractor, or the legislature's refusal to consider tort reform.
From the times a few days ago:
"The opposition to Edison — made up of local Democrats, the teachers
union and community groups — was vigorous and highly organized.
Opponents believed they faced a corporate beachhead into the domain
they had shaped over decades. Publicly, they said schoolchildren
were being reduced to dollar signs, while privately they feared an
erosion of their power throughout the school system. The United Federation of Teachers, faced with reduced control over teacher placement at the schools, distributed anti-Edison leaflets at two schools and encouraged pupils at others to ask their parents to oppose the plan. City and state politicians saw privatization as eroding their influence over community school boards and the hiring of aides and administrators, who sometimes form part of their campaign teams."
Kinda makes me feel like Don Quixote at times . . . am I the only one who finds this sort of stuff repugnant beyond belief?
I understand the problem, but it seems to me they should keep them running until they have enough cars to end the shortage -- and even then, they should be mothballed rather than discarded, just in case.
Again, that's the solution, but many Redbirds cannot continue. The mistake the MTA made was scrapping the R-15s and R-30s without replacement.
The MTA could still add trains even if the R-26/28/29s go to the scrapper. It's just a question of how many R-33/36 cars they opt to keep after all of the R-142s arrive.
Well, I'm for eliminating the subsidies and charging realistically.
But my main problem with the commuter RR subsidies is that they come at the expense of efficiency. It seems that LIRR employees work a lot less and get paid a lot more than people who do the same jobs at NYC Transit.
And even so, their jobs are the ost inefficient. Not only do they have to have a minimum of 3PTO, but their are the ticket collectors. Even securing all of the stations for fare control would be cheaper over the long run. But the best solution? The POP system.
Kinda makes me feel like Don Quixote at times . . . am I the only one who finds this sort of stuff repugnant beyond belief?
No, you aren't.
Personally I think all schools should be privatized, and not as charter schools, as 100% private schools.
[And even so, their jobs are the ost inefficient. Not only do they have to have a minimum of 3PTO, but their are the ticket collectors. Even securing all of the stations for fare control would be cheaper over the long run. But the best solution? The POP system.]
I think you're right.
[Personally I think all schools should be privatized, and not as charter schools, as 100% private schools.]
That's a good idea.
Sad that we have to consider it, though. 50 years go the public schools were top notch, because they were dedicated to educating children rather than placating interest groups. If we get any greedier we'll end up cannibals!
One of many horror stories: after they introduced the local school boards, a friend who was an assistant principal despaired of ever being promoted to principal because he was Jewish. Then, to his surprise, he was promoted. When he asked the board why he'd been chosen, they said "because your Irish, and we didn't want another Jew."
Of course, the best solution would be to eliminate the road subsidies which have allowed the fungus that is suburbia to grow over the past fifty years. Whenever people have fled the cities, that has always coincided with the fall of civilization.
The only reason people flee to the suburbs because cities are cancers that need to be eliminated (NUKED). Suburb flight is a symptom of over population and THAT is the cause of the fall of civilization.
>>>The only reason people flee to the suburbs because cities are cancers that need to be eliminated (NUKED). <<<
Suburbs would whither and die without the cities that form their nucleus. No one would have anywhere to work.
Peace,
ANDEE
Suburban industrial parks. In 50 years the only reason ppl. will go to a city is to go clubbing.
"Suburban industrial parks. In 50 years the only reason ppl. will go to a city is to go clubbing."
You're kidding me, right? Here in Chicago, the office vacancy rate for downtown is around half that of the suburban office parks. All sorts of new office buildings (10-20 stories, not whopping skyscrapers, but office buildings all the same) are going up between the Chicago River and the expressways, in the West Loop near the train stations. This is an area that has been parking lots (lots, mind, not multilevel garages) since they cleared out skid row back in the 1970s (IIRC), and until about 10 years ago was considered hopeless for anything BUT parking lots. And this construction is going on even though one of the largest office spaces in the world, the old Post Office covering four blocks, could potentially come onto the market at any time.
And no doubt Jersey Mike would be happy to push the big red button and laugh with joy at the mushroom cloud.
Pieces of bodies and fragments of Redbirds going everywhere...
You don't need a big red button to get pieces of Redbird to fly everywhere.
The only reason people flee to the suburbs because cities are cancers that need to be eliminated (NUKED).
Cities have been the cradles of civilization since its DAWN. When there were no cities, people fought off wooly mammoths with sticks and lived in caves.
Suburbia is filled with people just as dumb. Look at all of the people who are so braindead they can't even program something as simple as a VCR?
Suburb flight is a symptom of over population and THAT is the cause of the fall of civilization.
Overpopulation has never caused the fall of civilization. Civilization has fallen because of despotic rulers who care more about themselves and their wealth than the people which they rule. Eventually, their regime becomes ineffectual at protecting its citizenry from invasion, and quelling rebellion. People flee from the cities to be free from the marauding tribes who organize to rape and pillage to make a living. Meanwhile, those who are more scrupulous or who are to weak to rape and pillage move to the countryside to till the soil and grow their own food. In addition, with people caring more about their survival, since it's no longer something to be taken for granted, they end up shunning "recreational" activities, and that means learning to read. An illiterate society can easily be manipulated by any of several generations of rulers, civil or religious.
Personally, I don't wish to live in such a society. People who move to the suburbs are already braindead and can be easily manipulated by contemporary demogogues anyway.
>>>Suburbia is filled with people just as dumb. Look at all of the people who are so braindead they can't even program something as simple as a VCR? <<<
Pigs, while I agree with you on the suburbs, this is a bad example, there are plenty of people in the city that can't program VCRs either.
Peace,
ANDEE
--Going to OPTO
I agree with most of your points, but OPTO is slow, slow, slow, unless the doors open on the right side of the train at all stops on the line, and I don't think NYC has such a line. (I'm less convinced about the safety concerns.)
Cameras would solve that problem.
Along with controls for both sets of doors in all cabs. (And once we have that, full-width cabs suddenly serve no purpose and can be abolished. Yippee.)
Bad idea that ... safety issue again. You need to have the door operators (whomever they may be) on the same side with the doors to make sure they're all closed and no bodies being dragged down the platform for a "wall event" ... it was rare for people to be dragged back in the days when you actually climbed out between cars to open and close up ... easier to walk away inside a cab. But operating doors from the other side of the car from the open doors is a plain dangerous idea.
As Pork said: cameras.
As long as whoever's operating the doors has a clear view of them, it doesn't matter if he's sitting on the same side, on the opposite side, or on the moon.
If that's still not enough, install electric eyes along the platform edge. If they detect an obstruction after the doors are closed, the camera zooms in and the train doesn't move until the TO/CR checks out the situation.
[I agree with most of your points, but OPTO is slow, slow, slow, unless the doors open on the right side of the train at all stops on the line, and I don't think NYC has such a line. (I'm less convinced about the safety concerns.)]
I thought it added only a few seconds to each stop? The time for the motorman to slide to/from his console? In return, you get more frequent service and other benefits . . . also, on most lines, the TO would only have to slide over at the express stations.
Cameras, which are already used on some lines, and safety sensors in the doors would I think address the safety issues.
Also, I saw a picture of the completely automated French line a while back and it appears that they had cameras aimed at every door. I guess they monitor the doors remotely. That would make a lot of sense, because a single conductor could control multiple trains.
Cameras would solve the problem.
I've ridden Chicago's OPTO lines. The slowdown is quite noticeable. At the very least the CTA should modify the cars to allow the doors to be opened (but not closed) from either side.
[Cameras would solve the problem.]
I think they'd be necessary anyway. And since the TO would be watching them rather than the platform, what reason is there for him to slide over? They could get rid of the transverse cabs.
Looking at the track maps, there are a number of places, even in midtown, where there are unused layup tracks. Why can't the MTA station empty "relief" trains there, with a crew on board? These could be put into service during rush hours to fill gaps that inevitably occur because of overcrowdigng, sick passenger, etc. So when a platform gets full to bursting, an empty or almost empty train could pull in and relieve the problem.
I think due to Lex conditions, they SHOUL have a train at 59th Street layup tracks.
Arti
That's exactly the sort of solution I'm talking about.
I think due to Lex conditions, they SHOUL have a train at 59th Street layup tracks.
Adding just 3 trains and turning them at 59th would increase rush hour service levels from 24 to 30 tph. An objection was raised that using this layup track would: 1-require 4 minutes to clear the train because passengers could not be on an empty train on the layup track even if it were returning to service within a minute; 2-require at least two platform conductors to perform this chore; 3-require half a dozen supervisors and dispatchers to staff this terminal.
It's not just management that's against small incremental improvements - there is also labor. :-)
Is it simpler if there are platforms at the layover point? 59th is up in the tunnel; what if there is a center track with platform to either side? I'm thinking of issues related to stopping some 4s short at 149th/Grand Concourse. (Can't say when express 4s last regularly used that center track.)
Is it simpler if there are platforms at the layover point?
Yes, at least there is no need to empty the train. There will still be some staffing requirement for terminal facilities. That's a labor problem.
59th is up in the tunnel
To use it effectively, you have to add switches at 68th St. Then you could technically reverse direction at 68th and not have to empty the train. I figure that's about $2 million to shaft the union on this point.
I'm thinking of issues related to stopping some 4s short at 149th/Grand Concourse. (Can't say when express 4s last regularly
used that center track.)
They do use the center platform for the 4's at 149th St. The 4 does not stop at 138th. They also add 2 short trains during the morning rush at 149th. They deadhead until 125th. They are not on the printed schedule. They also run a couple of short trains to 3rd Ave on the #6.
They can considerably expand both short lines to bring service levels up at minimal cost. The 4,5 and 6 are only 60% full, when they leave the Bronx. The overcrowding occurs in Manhattan.
So short trains are one approach to the capacity problem. Been done, can be done again.
That leads me to one I've really been fuming about. There are two other types of MTA trains that can help relieve the crush: MNR and LIRR.
The cheapest rush hour trip on MNR within the City is 125th to GCT for $4.25. Ridiculous. Rush hour trips from the other 12 City stations to GCT are $4.75. Average trip length is a dozen miles or so.
But take a rush hour train a dozen miles from Syosset to Nassau business hub Mineola, for example, and the fare is ... just $1.75.
The cheapest rush hour trip on LIRR in the City is Kew Gardens, Forest Hills or Woodside to NYP, and East NY or Nostrand to Flatbush for $4.75. The last one is just 1.6 miles! Ridiculous. Rush hour trips from the other 14 LIRR City stations to NYP/Flatbush are $5.50. Average trip length is about 10 miles.
But take a rush hour train from Chappaqua to Westchester business hub White Plains (10 miles), for example, and the fare is ... just $1.75.
Simple solution: drop all these MTA commuter train fares within the City to $1.50 (or whatever on the Metrocard), just like the fare within the City on MTA subway trains. Should it matter what divisional banner the MTA train flies under? Install machines that dispense commuter tickets for a Metrocard fare. Unlimited ride Metrocards could only be used every 4 hours or so.
Imagine how much less demand there would be on the IRT and the Queens lines. People close to these 32 stations (time to reopen Woodhaven?) would flock to the alternatives that would get them to the City so much faster. Some of these riders would return to the subways at NYP and GCT (and Flatbush), but I'd have to believe the overall impact would be reduced. More reason to run short trains and otherwise maximize capacity on the southern Manhattan IRTs.
Sure, people will stand on MTA's MNR and LIRR trains. They do now on MTA's NYCT trains. Welcome to the club. And inbound, it will be the City riders who will do the standing. Outbound, late boarding suburbanites will have to stand. At least until trains leave the City, which is relatively quickly.
I understand that there is a premimum fare charged for a premium service. And that 10 miles in the middle of the trip, where seats are more plentiful, is different than the last 10 miles. But not using this resource seems like fiddling while we burn. Paris has the same flat fare deal with their RER commuter trains within city limits, and they do fine. I am sure suburbanites here will likewise survive the indignity of riding with us city folk. There is a massive transit subsidy going on from City to Suburb, and if there is a time to address it, it is now.
It appears that the problem here is politics, not technical constraints. Well, the City is growing faster than the other areas, and we've been told to apply the screws in an election year (this year for Mayor, next year for Guv). I know Green has touched upon this in the past. Time to fix it.
The fares are designed DELIBERATELY to discourage commuter rail use within the city, and for a good reason actually. When I was late for work and lived on the #1 line, I'd PAY the premium to take the "real" train from Marble Hill to NYC since the trip took about 18 minutes compared to an hour on the IRT.
The problem is the commuter lines don't have enough cars and gaps to be able to "compete" with the subway and a low fare would cause just that. It's a matter of social policy (whoop, politics again) engineering a solution to keep the great unwashed off the lily-white suburban subways ... sorry, but that's what it is. The commuter lines would never be able to handle the increased traffic, political sensibilities aside ... but that's why the fares are artificially high.
[The problem is the commuter lines don't have enough cars and gaps to be able to "compete" with the subway and a low fare would cause just that. It's a matter of social policy (whoop, politics again) engineering a solution to keep the great unwashed off the lily-white suburban subways ... sorry, but that's what it is. The commuter lines would never be able to handle the increased traffic, political sensibilities aside ... but that's why the fares are artificially high.]
Is it that, or just the usual give-more-to-the-suburbs-than-the-City business?
Anyway, it seems to me those lily-white suburban sensibilities could be protected by charging a reasonable premium, say $3.00 rather than $1.50. After all, it does cost more to provide a cushy seat on an FRA railroad than a sardine slot on the subway. And I think there's some real necessity to this sort of social engineering: middle class people expect a certain degree of comfort, and they're a crucial part of the City's economic picture. Conversely, the last thing the working poor need is a more expensive subway ride. So offer both options, and let people choose the one that suits them.
I don't accept these arguments. The purpose of MTA is to move people, not seperate them into castes.
There is no need to charge more in the City because City riders are unlikely to get a seat. Commuter rail costs more because you go farther, but in the City section, you are going no further than you would in an NYCT train. "Protecting" the commuters doesn't make sense because many of them transfer and become NYCT passengers once they arrive in the City. And there is a downside to using these trains: at most stations, if you miss your train, there isn't another one coming in a few minutes. Many will switch over, but not all.
For a 50 mile trip, commuter riders can live with people standing in the aisles for the last 10. They do it in Paris quite nicely. If MNR and LIRR trains were all packed, that would be one thing. But they are not. Even if they were: order more cars. The suburban systems are already massively subsidized against City users. It is an issue of equity as much as anything.
[I don't accept these arguments. The purpose of MTA is to move people, not seperate them into castes.]
People are already separated into castes! I think the purpose of the MTA is to give them the transit services they want and need, and for someone struggling to raise a family on $20,000 a year that's very different from someone who drives a Lexus. This is really just a different type of service, akin to an express bus (which is where I got the $3 figure).
[There is no need to charge more in the City because City riders are unlikely to get a seat. Commuter rail costs more because you go farther, but in the City section, you are going no further than you would in an NYCT train. "Protecting" the commuters doesn't make sense because many of them transfer and become NYCT passengers once they arrive in the City. And there is a downside to using these trains: at most stations, if you miss your train, there isn't another one coming in a few minutes. Many will switch over, but not all.]
But it still costs much more to operate a commuter train over the same distance. There's more area per passenger, there are higher staffing requirements, and there's the FRA. And the system and staff don't get the same off-peak utilization the subways do.
[For a 50 mile trip, commuter riders can live with people standing in the aisles for the last 10. They do it in Paris quite nicely. If MNR and LIRR trains were all packed, that would be one thing. But they are not. Even if they were: order more cars. The suburban systems are already massively subsidized against City users. It is an issue of equity as much as anything.]
I certainly agree with you on the equity issue. But I'm thinking about this from the opposite angle -- there's no equity in charging more to City residents for a given trip than suburban residents, and a $3 fare (or something similar) would redress that discrepancy.
But I wouldn't make commuters stand. That standard of transporation may have been acceptable 100 years ago when people were poorer and had lower expectations, but today it's not. The City has to compete with other regions for middle class residents and businesses, and lure people out of their cars to prevent gridlock. The comfort of mass transit has to be compared to the comfort of a car, and in that respect the subway falls *way* short. And I think it's crucial for the City to do anything it can to retain its small middle class population. Decent commuter and subway service to middle class neighborhoods is one way to do that; lower taxes, decent schools, and the elimination of rent control are probably even more important.
>>>...and the elimination of rent control are probably even more important. <<<
Rent CONTROL was eliminated, for new tenants, many years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
[Rent CONTROL was eliminated, for new tenants, many years ago.]
Only if you want to quibble -- rent stablization was rapidly imposed to do the same thing.
Vacancy decontrol, to which you refer, was far worse than rent control, because it froze the City's housing stock into increasingly inefficient configurations. It did more than any other program to fuel the rise in housing costs.
[But it still costs much more to operate a commuter train over the same distance. There's more area per passenger, there are higher staffing requirements, and there's the FRA. And the system and staff don't get the same off-peak utilization the subways do.]
Then why do they charge just $1.75 for the same distance trip in Westchester or Nassau? There is a double standard.
[I certainly agree with you on the equity issue. But I'm thinking about this from the opposite angle -- there's no equity in charging more to City residents for a given trip than suburban residents, and a $3 fare (or something similar) would redress that discrepancy.]
Again, why just $1.75 for a 10 or 12 mile trip in the suburbs? Express buses are great where there isn't a one-seat rail option (SI - Manhattan, for example). But there are trains going through the Bronx and Queens on the way to where people are going. Let them aboard.
[But I wouldn't make commuters stand.]
Give City residents that option, they'll take it. At least they will stand for a shorter period of time. Add trips and trains -- to all three railroads -- longer-term to meet a no-stand standard? Absolutely. No complaint.
[And I think it's crucial for the City to do anything it can to retain its small middle class population. Decent commuter and subway service to middle class neighborhoods is one way to do that]
This would be a break for the middle class in northern Bronx and Eastern Queens. Like the existing system provides a break to the middle class outside the City's boundaries. The current system says live in Manhattan, or just go straight to the suburban counties. My proposal would say the outer burroughs are also an important priority.
[Then why do they charge just $1.75 for the same distance trip in Westchester or Nassau? There is a double standard.]
Same distance as what?
Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that it's inexcusable to charge more to City residents than suburbanites.
[But there are trains going through the Bronx and Queens on the way to where people are going. Let them aboard.]
It seems to me this might be the gist of an equal protection lawsuit. Of course, the state would find a way to screw the City anyway, the way they did with the school funding decision.
[Give City residents that option, they'll take it. At least they will stand for a shorter period of time. Add trips and trains -- to all three railroads -- longer-term to meet a no-stand standard? Absolutely. No complaint.]
I'm way in favor of offering local service on the commuter lines. The value of that infrastructure is incalculable. I'd offer both subway-style and commuter-style service as appropriate.
[This would be a break for the middle class in northern Bronx and Eastern Queens. Like the existing system provides a break to the middle class outside the City's boundaries. The current system says live in Manhattan, or just go straight to the suburban counties. My proposal would say the outer burroughs are also an important priority.]
I'd also institute service in Manhattan. With the Riverdale, Central, and Hell's Gate lines, the West Side Line, the Rockaway and Queens Freight line, the Atlantic Avenue and Montauk lines, the Park Avenue lines, and the 32nd/33rd Street tunnels, we could revolutionize service and coverage for commuters, City residents, and air travellers at a fairly low cost.
[Same distance as what?]
As an equal length trip in the City. Earlier in the thread, I detailed how a 10 or 12 mile trip within the suburbs cost $1.75, while a 10 or 12 mile trip within the city costs (mostly) $4.75 or $5.50.
[I'd also institute service in Manhattan. With the Riverdale, Central, and Hell's Gate lines, the West Side Line, the Rockaway and Queens Freight line, the Atlantic Avenue and Montauk lines, the Park Avenue lines, and the 32nd/33rd Street tunnels, we could revolutionize service and coverage for commuters, City residents, and air travellers at a fairly low cost.]
Amen. But we'll need to be vigilant. For example: I haven't looked closely at the Penn Station Access study lately. But as I recall, the flavor is no stops on the Hudson line coming down the Empire side, and maybe just a Co-op stop coming down the Hell Gate side.
[Amen. But we'll need to be vigilant. For example: I haven't looked closely at the Penn Station Access study lately. But as I recall, the flavor is no stops on the Hudson line coming down the Empire side, and maybe just a Co-op stop coming down the Hell Gate side.]
(Sigh) Typical.
Doesn't bother me any ... a trip to the city from where I live is a $75.00 proposition. Needless to say, ain't been down there since somewhere around 1988 ... so for what it's worth, the fare structure also keeps us farm kids off the trains too. :)
Can someone please explain to me why it isn’t possible to reverse a train on a layup track with a passeenger on board?
I can understand a lot of due diligence if the train is going to spend a significant amount of time out of service, but if it’s just a case of the time needed for the TO to walk from one end to the other, I can’t see this as anything but a piece of stupidity.
Now someone tell me why I’m being the stupid one!
John.
It's a safety issue really. And back when I worked there, on a relay, you'd pick up a switchman on the ass end of the train - you'd take it onto the relay tail and dump it at the 10 car marker. The guy at the other end would then charge up (takes a bit of time) and back you went. At the end of the relay, you'd step off and another guy would take it out while you hit the office. Only way off peak would you actually walk the train since there was time for that. On a single track relay though, you want to get that train in and back out to make room for the next relay through. At 205th, you had more time since there were two tail tracks and therefore the other guy went before you had to.
But back when I worked there, there were a number of trains that didn't run the whole line that would get relayed somewhere so as to provide a higher level of service to the mainline in Manhattan while only 1 of 2 or 2 of 3 would run the entire line in rush hour. So there were a lot of trains where they were needed and enough trains to the far ends of the line ... worked mighty well actually.
Thank you for the insight on how turnaround is accomplished so that the train is put in service as fast as possible.
Um, I still don’t understand: “It’s a safety issue” Why is a passenger waiting in a tail track (ie in a track in a tunnel) any different from a passenger waiting in a tunnel because the train in front isn’t moving?–“Takes a bit of time”? I have been sitting in a tunnel for 15-20 minutes (actually that was standing in a tunnel for 20 minutes). How do these circumstances differ?
As I said, if the train is going to be idle for a while, then you need to get the passengers off. Otherwise, if they’re dumb enough not to realize that they have reached the terminus, they can go back to where they started and have another opportunity to think about their mistake!
John.
I don't know the particular logic of it being a safety issue, but part of the procedure prior to doing a relay is that the train is walked and everybody cast off the train because it's a safety issue as far as management is concerned. It's just what you do. When you're a bottom feeder and management tells you, "this is how it's done, there is no other way to do it" you learn not to argue and just do as you're told. As an employee though, if you transport geese onto a relay, you get written up or possibly worse. But as to what the specific safety issues are, dunno.
Exactly! No real safety issues identified, it’s just the way we do it!
Unfortunately, management challenges (ie force them to think) don’t seem to do well in the MTA.
You're right ... and I'm just another line item that tried and failed to do much about it either. Not that TWU was in a mood to make any changes either. One of the things about the railroad was that just getting through the day was more than enough at times and boat rockers would find themselves really wishing they'd kept their piehole shut. :)
One thing you learn over time is to choose your battles wisely and hauling geese onto non-revenue track was one that wasn't worth the fight. Ya dump the train, ya dump the geese, ya close up and move on. If nobody dies, it's a good day.
A follow-up article in today's Daily News City Beat repeats a an MTA excuse for poor service as a fact. The quoted excuse is: "the TA can run a maximum 27 to 30 trains per hour on nine lines: the B, D, Q, E, F, 2, 3, 4 and 5."
The capacity due to the constraints of tracks, signals, dwell time, acceleration and braking rates is slighlty in excess of 40 trains per hour. The private companies operated these same lines at 40 tph and above. There are systems in the world that have similar charatcteristics that operate at 40+ tph. These systems utilize similar equipment and signals as those currently used in NYC.
Any talk of running 25, 30, 35 or 40 tph on any line is academic. The TA simply does not have enough cars available to operate more rush hour trains. The major reasons for this shortage are TA managerial decisions. The most spectacular decisions being reducing max speed to compensate for inadequate brakes and the use of link bars to make the maintenance statistics look good. The former increased the requirement for opeating cars by 10%. The latter reduced both car availability and operating flexibility. They also decided to scrap hundreds of operating cars rather than retrofit them with air conditioning.
Many of the TA's excuses for poor performance are an act of God - Manhattan Bridge or betray any understanding of what is required to operate at or near capacity - "The 4 and 5 trains heading into Grand Central have to slow down to 15 miles an hour because of a curve just before the station".
These excuses simply don't stand up to simple historical examination, even if their reporters could not understand the simple engineering principles involved for calculating and operating at capacity that contradict this assertion.
The Manhattan Bridge effectively had only 2 tracks prior to 1967. But they ran more trains on the T, QT, and Q in 1964 than they currently do today on the B, D and Q. All the TA had to do was re-establish the 1964 opeations to compensate for the current Manhattan Bridge mess.
All trains have had to slow down to 15 mph for the Grand Central curve since 1918. They did run more locals and expresses on the Lex than at present.
I suppose these articles are designed to assuage their readers' concerns without unduly alarming them into increasing real estate taxes. :-)
[The capacity due to the constraints of tracks, signals, dwell time, acceleration and braking rates is slighlty in excess of 40 trains per hour.]
Yes, but how to get that message out? It seems that the reporters only talk to people who spout the company line. Perhaps a call to the News reporter who wrote the articles could elicit a more critical followup.
Didn't they publish Stephen's letter in last week News?
Arti
Didn't they publish Stephen's letter in last week News?
I never submitted one, so I doubt it.
[I never submitted one, so I doubt it. ]
Maybe some other Stephen, but the ideas were quite similar to yours, pointing out that the system was able to run much more TPH.
Arti
I have read the April 1, 2001 Daily News story about various suggestions being made to improve subway service, and I have the following comments:
1. Increasing the size of the fleet is a fairly easy (though costly) way of increasing capacity, and, as the Daily News noted, it is being done. However, it is not the panacea some people would have us believe. For one thing, it creates some problems of its own, such as straining yard and shop capacity – this wasn’t an issue when the fleet was larger, in the 1970s for example, because cars were being stored on the mainline (and being vandalized) and they weren’t being maintained properly. In fact, more cars than necessary were being kept on the active roster in the 1970s and early 1980s in order to ensure that enough working cars could be scraped together to provide service – remember the R-46 truck fiasco? For another, even where track capacity is available, it would not necessarily be a wise thing to operate more service and/or longer trains, simply because while riding has gone up precipitously overall since 1996, it has not all gone up in one place or at one time of the day. Some of the places additional trains COULD be operated if the cars were available, simply don’t need more rush hour service than they’ve got.
But there is something the Daily News series didn’t get into, something that has been talked about on this board. A combination of modifications to the fleet’s propulsion systems, the signal system, and training practices has slowed the subway down. One must wonder whether restoring field shunting and finding a way to instill a healthy respect for the equipment in new Train Operators without scaring them into running through restricted zones at half the posted speed wouldn’t cut enough running time generate a trainset or two that could be used to increase capacity.
2. The problems with the new cars are teething pains, and, with proper oversight by MTA and NYCT, will be ironed out. When the R-62 and R-62A cars were coming in, delivery was stopped several times while fleet defects were corrected. In fact, NYCT came very close to canceling the R-62A contract due to problems Bombardier and Westinghouse were having correcting difficulties with the J/BDC contactor, part of the master controller. The problems were corrected, at least to a point where they didn’t threaten the viability of the R-62A fleet, and the cars became some of the most reliable ever operated in New York City (it should be noted that the master controllers on the R-62A fleet were replaced several years later with Adtranz (formerly Westinghouse) E-Cam controllers that don’t have J/BDC contactors).
3. Opening the field for new subway car purchases to other manufacturers than Bombardier and Kawasaki is not a bad idea. Remember, however, that the manufacturers are responsible mainly for building the carbodies. Subcontractors, for the most part, supply the componentry. As long as a manufacturer is capable of building the carbodies to NYCT’s satisfaction and can deal with the appropriate subcontractors, there shouldn’t be a problem (as an alternative, one of the subcontractors could bid on the cars and subcontract the bodies – the M-1, built by Budd under subcontract to General Electric, is an example).
4. Adding more service during off-peak hours is possible throughout the system because track capacity is available. Ridership counts are done on a regular basis, and service is added during off-peak hours where needed whenever possible. However, the subway fleet needs to be inspected every once in a while, and overhauled every once in a while. While some cars are available during off-peak times, there just aren’t thousands of subway cars sitting around doing nothing between the rush hours. This goes back to 1., above.
5. Getting better cooperation from riders is very important. Dwell time is a reason that more service couldn’t be operated on some lines even if subway cars were available. It’s a chicken-and-egg thing – dwell times skyrocketed in the late 1970s/early 1980s when service was unreliable and people assumed that the train in front of them would be the last one for a while. However, dwell time has long been a problem. I know that some people on this board claim that 40 trains per hour could be operated throughout the system (with the existing signals) if cars were available, but the simple fact is that they couldn’t. As many as 40 trains per hour were scheduled on some parts of the system many years ago, but through-put (the number of trains actually passing a given location in a given time frame) never was that high. Moreover, when 40 trains (or more) per hour were scheduled on, say, the Lexington Avenue Line, it was before the Contract One IRT local tracks were signaled in the 1930s (When the first subway opened, only the express tracks – including the center track between 96th Street and 145th Street – had signals. The elevated sections – which didn’t see as much service as the trunk through the central business district since they were branches – had semaphore-type signals). 60 trains per hour (using five-car trains) were contemplated on the local tracks, and 30 trains per hour (using eight-car trains) were contemplated on the express tracks. It should also be remembered that when through-put was above 30 trains per hour, many years ago, the subway was a much more personnel-centered operation than it is today. There were several people on each platform (at least the more crowded ones) to control boardings and alightings, and there were several conductors on each train (before multiple-unit door control, at least) to encourage people to get on or off. With personnel being the greatest component of NYCT’s operating costs, it’s unlikely that many more people will be hired to do crowd control.
6. Getting better cooperation from the NYPD is a pie-in-the-sky idea. First off, it hasn’t been proven that the way NYPD handles emergencies in the subway is a factor in delays being longer than they should be, and even if such a thing were proven, it would remain to be seen whether emergency response could be improved. Besides, since emergencies don’t happen in the same place every day, at the same time every day, there is no way NYCT could schedule around emergencies, and therefore emergency response is not a factor in scheduling of train service (except to say that in cases such as sick passengers, which seem to happen somewhere in a given corridor during the busiest times of the day, stationing nurses and/or emergency medical technicians at strategic locations does seem to have increased through-put, which will allow for additional service to be provided once cars are available).
Now, excuse me while I go back to lurking until people here stop launching threads about the “worst movie of all time” :-)
David
Nice to have your constructive and insightful remarks back, David; don't be a stranger.
We have similar "teething pains" here in Boston with the Type-8 Breda trolleys; the first cars arrived on-site over THREE YEARS AGO, and none are in service. Only 15 of 100 have been delivered; the deliveries and payments stopped until a solution for the derailments
is found (and finger pointing stops). So youz guyz in Noo Yawk aren't doing too badly with the R-142/As in comparison!
Getting more trains is as easy as speeding up the system. With higher speeds more trains could fit in.
But the MTA, typical of this "fear a lawsuit, overreaction age" we are in puts in more timers, more of those dreaded WD's, and limits the train's full speed potential (except for Hippos, they were slow from day #1)
Minimum headways are not influenced by travel time between stations. In fact it is marginally easier to run 40 tph at 10 mph than at 50 mph due to reduced braking distances.
Reduced operating speeds do increase the number of trains that are necessary to maintain service at a given level.
[Reduced operating speeds do increase the number of trains that are necessary to maintain service at a given level.]
And that could well be contributing to the current car shortage. Many trains seem to run at about half speed now during off-peak hours, and they crawl during peak periods.
I can't help but thinking on the basis of what you and others have said that the real problem here is just about *everything* has slipped from the days of efficient operation: # and availability of cars, dwell times/door holding, key bys, operating procedures during police and medical emergencies, train speeds, brake distances, # of doors and train length, poor schedulng (although the dispatcher at 242nd Street told me back in 1967 that rush hour came, they forgot about the schedule and just pushed out as many trains as they could). The system has a limited margin to absorb some operational deficiencies, and when you take out the margin you end up with a non-linear slowdown.
Perhaps another way of looking at it is that the TA's priorities have changed, from moving trains to avoiding lawsuits, placating the Feds, pacifying interest groups, and trimming the budget in the wrong places because they aren't free to trim where they should -- inefficient staffing and work rules, bloated bids, overdesigned projects like LIRR GCT access, not to mention huge investments like the 63rd Street tunnels that sit unused for years because of the vagaries of politics, ultimately costing more in wasted interest than they cost to build.
(although the dispatcher at 242nd Street told me back in 1967 that rush hour came, they forgot about the schedule and just pushed out as many trains as they could).
That is not the way to operate a railroad at peak capacity.
Nail, head ... as much as folks here will recoil at the injection of politics, the reason why the subway sucks is that it's ALL ABOUT POLITICS ... private industry is there to make customers as happy as possible so they come back and spend more and will invest if it looks like the profits will come out ahead for doing so.
POLITICAL entities however run on antigravity and the transit authority, BEING a political entity, responds not to reality but reality as curved about the antigravitational fields of the politicians that yank the chains ... I apologize for constantly bringing politics into the discussion and I'll stop here, but everyone does need to realize that politics is the ruler of all in this mess, not what the "customer" requires ... and politics is also the solution to it if properly jiggled like that annoying toilet bowl that runs all night. :)
[I apologize for constantly bringing politics into the discussion and I'll stop here, but everyone does need to realize that politics is the ruler of all in this mess, not what the "customer" requires ... and politics is also the solution to it if properly jiggled like that annoying toilet bowl that runs all night. :)]
I think you're right . . . though I'm not sure if the toilet can be sufficiently jiggled in this case, which is why I've come to believe that reprivatization is the best solution.
Even the most recalcitrant porcelain (or porcine) gives when confronted with a 50 pound sledge ... make the subway a re-election issue and it's amazing the lip service (and taxpayer cash) it will find itself awash in ... much like our situation up here in Albany over initiation of a commuter rail service ... the sausage crafters got very silly until they had their act dragged into the newspapers here. And now that it's an election issue, suddenly the mountain is wandering about the desert seeking Mohammed. Antigravity rules if a lever is applied in the right places. :)
[Even the most recalcitrant porcelain (or porcine) gives when confronted with a 50 pound sledge ... make the subway a re-election issue and it's amazing the lip service (and taxpayer cash) it will find itself awash in ... much like our situation up here in Albany over initiation of a commuter rail service ... the sausage crafters got very silly until they had their act dragged into the newspapers here. And now that it's an election issue, suddenly the mountain is wandering about the desert seeking Mohammed. Antigravity rules if a lever is applied in the right places. :)]
There seems to be a disconnect though. Pataki introduced the flat rates before the last election, apparently in the hopes that people would forget that he had cut support a couple years previously. Then when people in the City didn't vote for him, it seems he decided that nothing he did would matter. The Mayor, meanwhile, can only jawbone.
I hope we'll see more pressure like this Daily News series, or the near-revolts over the LIRR and the Second Avenue Subway.
"I hope we'll see more pressure like this Daily News series, or the near-revolts over the LIRR and the Second Avenue Subway."
The revolts you'll see are the ones that happen if MTA doesn't start building them, esp. 2nd Av. Politicians' heads may well roll over that.
In this respect, the boy is going to run again. And his numbers this time are SHORT ... he ain't going to make it for a third term unless suddenly there's a lovefest. He AIN'T gonna get the vote up here now that upstate was left as such a smoking crater, the FARMERS are moving out. So from a poli-sci viewpoint, he's gotta do MAJOR buttsmooch in the city or he's toast. Call it "power to be used and not abused" ... ball is now in NYC's court therefore - it's Paturkey's only chance.
That said, remember also that there are assembly"persons" and senators to beat up on as well ... and they're all up for election too. There was never a better time to apply the screws ...
[That said, remember also that there are assembly"persons" and senators to beat up on as well ...]
I only wish we could be sure there was somebody more effective in the wings. Carey was half asleep, Cuomo had Stature but never actually did anything, Pataki should be running Nassau County . . . quite a letdown after the days of titans.
Do the people upstate recognize the need to bring our taxes, expenditures, and services into line with competing states, or have they been fooled into thinking that the City is the cause of all their problems?
Rule of scapegoating here is "cut off that waste of money at the (northern) Westchester line and it'll be Jubilee upstate." After all, if the sausagemakers can blame somebody ELSE, then the peasants with torches won't come after them. Same as in the private sector - blame the last "management" and when you've been in too long, blame the unions. If you've been in even longer, then it's the guys on the other side of the pipeline that are screwing everything up.
But yeah, the politicos are still playing the same old tired game. I was born and raised in the Bronx, spent half my life in the city, the other half up here. It's absolutely amusing how folks in the city believe we're a bunch of rubes living in Canada while the folks up here believe every problem can be solved by nuking NYC. Just amazing and the politicos on both sides of the "offending border" continue to play it up to their own advantage while we ALL burn.
Reprivitization, at least of the operation of the system, woulf likely be more efficent in the long run, but judging by the current Edsion-NY Public School privitization battle (20 percent reading compency levels -- what's wrong with that?), it would make some of the NIMBY fights look like a walk in the park compared to the special interests that would oppose it.
Bset hope in the immediate future will be for Pataki to decide he needs a few extra NYC votes in the next 18 months for his 2002 battle with Andrew Cuomo and gives Peter Kalikow some more money for the subway system (which in the end would probably go into another $50 million study of the Second Ave. subway line, but we can always hope the cash might trickle down into the actual operation of the system)
[Bset hope in the immediate future will be for Pataki to decide he needs a few extra NYC votes in the next 18 months for his 2002 battle with Andrew Cuomo and gives Peter Kalikow some more money for the subway system (which in the end would probably go into another $50 million study of the Second Ave. subway line, but we can always hope the cash might trickle down into the actual operation of the system)]
I hope so. The last election got us the flat rate Metrocard . . .
I doubt that. Private industry is about making a profit. If the private NYCDOT lines give lousy service to the boroughs, what could we expect them to do on the subway?
The TA is there to help improve NY's energy efficiency, fight air pollution, decrease congestion on roads and give people a way to get around. The school board has also made it possible for schoolkids to use the TA to get to school. By and large, the TA has been fulfilling these goals, which private industry still has not figured out how to price.
I'm not a socialist. I don't think govt. should poke its nose everywhere. But mass transit in NY is as essential a social service, a conveyor of social justice, if you will, as any other essential govt. service. That needs to be kept in mind.
I doubt that. Private industry is about making a profit. If the private NYCDOT lines give lousy service to the boroughs, what could we expect them to do on the subway?
I'm not sure that the (subsidized) bus companies provide much of a lesson. Bus service, more so than subway service, is inherently a money-loser (although some of the lines do run in the black). Even with all its gross inefficiencies, the subway system comes reasonably close to making a profit, granted without taking capital expenditures into account. A more efficient private operator ... you never know.
[I doubt that. Private industry is about making a profit. If the private NYCDOT lines give lousy service to the boroughs, what could we expect them to do on the subway?]
I don't think that a private operator that's a) a monopoly b) subsidized c) forced to provide uneconomical services at a given rate is a good comparison. They're basically public companies with greed and graft attached.
The private transit companies before unification are probably a more apt comparison. They carried on bravely despite the City's efforts to kill them with the 5c fare and the IND. As soon as they went, the fare soared, the subways started losing money like crazy, the unions took over, the system stopped growing and started to shrink, and service levels began their slow downard slide.
The economics of running a subway today aren't that much different than they were back then. Off-peak and Saturday traffic is lowerand employees earn more, but passengers also earn more and a private comapany could run the system with much less labor -- no token clerks, conductors, or TO's, although a smaller group would have to perform some of their functions.
[The TA is there to help improve NY's energy efficiency, fight air pollution, decrease congestion on roads and give people a way to get around. The school board has also made it possible for schoolkids to use the TA to get to school. By and large, the TA has been fulfilling these goals, which private industry still has not figured out how to price.
I'm not a socialist. I don't think govt. should poke its nose everywhere. But mass transit in NY is as essential a social service, a conveyor of social justice, if you will, as any other essential govt. service. That needs to be kept in mind.]
I'm not suggesting we eliminate mass transit, just that given a bit of competition and freedom from certain kinds of government interference private enterprise can do it cheaper and better. I think that's almost always the case.
It's hard to believe, but there was a time when companies *wanted* to build subway lines in New York.
"Perhaps another way of looking at it is that the TA's priorities have changed, from moving trains to avoiding lawsuits, placating the Feds, pacifying interest groups, and trimming the budget in the wrong places because they aren't free to trim where they should -- inefficient staffing and work rules, bloated bids, overdesigned projects like LIRR GCT access, not to mention huge investments like the 63rd Street tunnels that sit unused for years because of the vagaries of politics, ultimately costing more in wasted interest than they cost to build."
Setting aside the issue of the LIRR tunnels, on which you and I will disagree, you have spoken well and truly. The MTA today is probably much more constrained today, and must serve more masters, some of whom have only narrow, selfish interests at heart. I am grateful that a project like 63rd St or Archer Av was finally finished, wishing it had been done sooner.
[Setting aside the issue of the LIRR tunnels, on which you and I will disagree, you have spoken well and truly. The MTA today is probably much more constrained today, and must serve more masters, some of whom have only narrow, selfish interests at heart. I am grateful that a project like 63rd St or Archer Av was finally finished, wishing it had been done sooner.]
Out of curiosity, why do you disagree about the LIRR tunnels? The only thing I remember you saying about it was that the existing infrastructure option was listen in the EIS.
From your prior post, if I am not mistaken, you have disagreed on the need for the ESA project. If that is not true, I apologize.
Capacity at Penn Station and under the East River is clearly inadequate to improve LIRR service. In fact, MTA has documented that the real bottleneck is in fact the tunnel capacity under the East River. We must add tunnel capacity under the East River; there are no other options. As of 2001, the LIRR has an existing tunnel stretching from 63rd St/2nd Av to 41 Av at Northern Blvd. (the 63rd St Connector project, starting in 1995, allowed MTA to extend the LIRR tunnel as well).
Increasing capacity at Penn requires adding another tunnel under the river to it - but we already have a $1.5 billion tunnel completed at 63rd St, and riders would benefit from being taken to GCT and Midtown, so why not use it? The Preferred Alternative involves boring a tunnel west on 63rd, curving south to Park Av and below Metro-North's tracks. The line would end in an LIRR terminal which would not interfere with current Metro-North traffic.
The required work in Queens involves digging tunnels under the Sunnyside Yard to connect the main and PW lines to this tunnel. There is also a service yard which must be built. Diverting some service to GCT means fewer trains waiting for clearance to go to Penn Station, so train service to Penn can improve. And LIRR trains going to GCT don't have to fight Amtrak and NJ Transit traffic headed for Sunnyside Yard.
In Manhattan, MTA has to bore or blast its way west and then south. They want to do so in a manner minimizing the need to rebuild the foundations of buildings ("underpinning") and letters from property owners included in the FEIS clearly reinforce this decision.
Total cost is $4.3 billion, with $1,7 billion in the current Capital Plan (enough to get some construction done). I believe a total of 13 miles of new tunnels will be dug.
According to ridership projections, ESA would create the 4th largest commuter rail "system" in the U.S.
Isn't MTA already the largest commuter railroad in the world (MNRR + LIRR)? And that's not counting NJ Transit's NEC line into Penn!
Isn't MTA already the largest commuter railroad in the world
From pictures I've seen, I'd guess that a single commuter train in Bombay probably has more passengers than all the MTA commuter trains combined. :-)
The statistics usually list them as seperate properties. So it is LIRR, then METRA, then MNR, then "new" LIRR (the "old" LIRR would likely drop a few spots). ESA would be larger than NJT, SEPTA or Boston or the others.
MTA isn't a commuter railroad, it's an umbrella funding organization.
[From your prior post, if I am not mistaken, you have disagreed on the need for the ESA project. If that is not true, I apologize.]
OK, I see the misunderstanding. No, I'm all in favor of it (although I would give the 2nd Avenue subway priority because it would benefit more people, commuters and subway travellers both, for a given expenditure).
What bothers me about the ESA project is the way they're going about it. I see no reason to build the annex or the additional Park Avenue tunnel. With both the West Side and Hell's Gates lines almost unused, and GCT and the Park Avenue tunnels underutilized but Penn Station maxed out, it's possible to divert MN and NHRR trains to Penn Station, freeing up the lower level of GCT and two tracks for LIRR service via the 63rd Street tunnel. It's win-win all around -- better coverage for the LIRR, enough capacity to max out three inbound tracks on the LIRR main line and allow use of the fourth for reverse commutes, significantly lower cost, and faster completion. And it opens up the possibility of intriguing new services via the LIRR tracks.
[Capacity at Penn Station and under the East River is clearly inadequate to improve LIRR service. In fact, MTA has documented that the real bottleneck is in fact the tunnel capacity under the East River.]
[We must add tunnel capacity under the East River; there are no other options. As of 2001, the LIRR has an existing tunnel stretching from 63rd St/2nd Av to 41 Av at Northern Blvd. (the 63rd St Connector project, starting in 1995, allowed MTA to extend the LIRR tunnel as well).]
There are four LIRR tunnels to Penn Station, and their are four tracks on the LIRR main line. Amtrak runs only two trains an hour, and NJT sends trains to the yard, but the NJT trains could be used instead for the reverse LIRR service that will be provided from GCT. So where's the mismatch?
Not, as I said, that I'm opposed to using the 63rd Street tunnel -- but what we'll end up with I think is effectively two extra tunnels to Penn, and there are some fairly fun things you can do with them.
[Total cost is $4.3 billion, with $1,7 billion in the current Capital Plan (enough to get some construction done). I believe a total of 13 miles of new tunnels will be dug.]
Why stretch a project like this past five years? The interest costs are astronomical, and nothing is gained.
I like what you've written.
This plan could work. Amtrak would insist that its Acela service not be interfered with, and there may be other construction issues as well.
Please note that the deep bore (and therefore the extra LIRR level) is directly linked to the underpinning issue, and keeping property owners happy is important. Of course, the train could go up a grade along Park Av until it reached the current lower level. Another issue in the FEIS was loop tracks etc.
I'm not disagreeing with you. It would be interesting to find out if somebody at MTA had thought of this, and if so, why it was shot down. There would have been more than one reason.
They say they are going deep bore with the current plan because it is cheaper than doing a lot of shoring and going straight into GCT's Madison Yard, which is at the same height as the lower level, and to the north. That was the original plan for where to put LIRR.
Presumably it is the same cost issue even if MNR let its sister agency use some of its terminal tracks: more expensive shoring to come into the GCT lower level. I would have been interested to see them explicitly consider using GCT lower level for ESA in their studies. (Maybe it IS in there, just haven't seen it.) Kind of hard to just take MNR's position without challenge.
[They say they are going deep bore with the current plan because it is cheaper than doing a lot of shoring and going straight into GCT's Madison Yard, which is at the same height as the lower level, and to the north. That was the original plan for where to put LIRR]
I never understood that business about the yard. Why go into the yard and use the lower level for MN storage rather than going into the lower level and using the *yard* for storage?
[I never understood that business about the yard. Why go into the yard and use the lower level for MN storage rather than going into the lower level and using the *yard* for storage?]
Because MNR and LIRR refuse to work together?
My guess is that MNR would argue they won't use all their station tracks for storage long-term, and point to the four or so other yards for their storage needs. I'd guess they'd also say that the lower level will be plenty busy, particularly under the ARC tunnel scenarios linking them (and NJT) with NYP. Who knows? Something accepted at the outset and not fully explored.
[Please note that the deep bore (and therefore the extra LIRR level) is directly linked to the underpinning issue, and keeping property owners happy is important. Of course, the train could go up a grade along Park Av until it reached the current lower level. Another issue in the FEIS was loop tracks etc.]
Maybe they could leave a bell mouth for future expansion to six track service with an annex. That would allow for eventual increases in MN service, or a direct 42nd-Madison-Broadway BMT or new RR tunnel connection, or NJT service (some of the current NJT access plans use the existing lower level).
Either way I imagine they'd have to bore the tunnel because of that loop and the flying junction.
[I'm not disagreeing with you. It would be interesting to find out if somebody at MTA had thought of this, and if so, why it was shot down. There would have been more than one reason.]
I'd be curious too.
It will also allow for direct transfer between the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North Railroad, making travel between suburban areas much easier. In fact, I think they should begin to merge the railroads, or at least the fare structures.
:-) Andrew
That's a nice idea.
(although the dispatcher at 242nd Street told me back in 1967 that rush hour came, they forgot about the schedule and just pushed out as many trains as they could).
That sure has changed (specifically out of 242nd)!
Perhaps another way of looking at it is that the TA's priorities have changed, from moving trains to
avoiding lawsuits, placating the Feds, pacifying interest groups, and trimming the budget in the
wrong places because they aren't free to trim where they should -- inefficient staffing and work
rules, bloated bids, overdesigned projects like LIRR GCT access, not to mention huge
investments like the 63rd Street tunnels that sit unused for years because of the vagaries of
politics, ultimately costing more in wasted interest than they cost to build.
Why should they bother?
What's in it for the TA?
The current squeeze is great for the bottom line. It means
more money for capital projects to relieve the passenger
congestion.
I was hoping my polemic would flush out TA apologists :-)
Most of your comments refer to the lead article and not to my post. I shall reserve my reply to those items that I raised - in particular to item 5.
1. Increasing the size of the fleet is a fairly easy (though costly) way of increasing capacity, and, as the Daily News noted, it is being done. However, it is not the panacea some people would have us believe. For one thing, it creates some problems of its own, such as straining yard and shop capacity...
I agree that there are more costs associated with an increased fleet size than simply the cost of the goods. However, the TA did double the size of the Corona Yard prior to the R33/36's coming on board. I would assume that they would factor storage space, additional maintenance costs, etc. into the real cost of additional cars.
Any solution that promises to decrease the current load levels while maintaining current or increased demand will require more cars. It's a question of how many and where they will run - on existing tracks or new tracks. Running them on existing tracks is less expensive. Of course, the TA can revert to their previous policy and drive the customers away with continued inadequate service levels.
5. Getting better cooperation from riders is very important. Dwell time is a reason that more service couldn?t be operated on some lines even if subway cars were available. It?s a chicken-and-egg thing - dwell times skyrocketed in the late 1970s/early 1980s when service was unreliable and people assumed that the train in front of them would be the last one for a while. However, dwell time has long been a problem. I know that some people on this board claim that 40 trains per hour could be operated throughout the system (with the existing signals) if cars were available, but the simple fact is that they couldn?t. As many as 40 trains per hour were scheduled on some parts of the system many years ago, but through-put (the number of trains actually passing a given location in a given time frame) never was that high. Moreover, when 40 trains (or more) per hour were scheduled on, say, the Lexington Avenue Line, it was before the Contract One IRT local tracks were signaled in the 1930s (When the first subway opened, only the express tracks - including the center track between 96th Street and 145th Street - had signals.
So, quotes involving the original subway and the express tracks would be valid.
"Originally eight-car express trains were operated at 2 1/2 minute intervals and five-car locals at three minute intervals; now ten-car expresses are operated at a minimum interval of one minute and forty-eight seconds at a speed of twenty-five miles per hour including stops [33.3 tph] and six-car local trains at the same interval." W. F. Reeves, Asst. Engineer, Interborough Rapid Transit Company, "Transit Problems in America", International Engineering Congress, San Francisco, Sept 20-25, 1915, reprinted in Interborough Bulletin.
"The current NYCT signal system on the Lexington Avenue line is designed to allow 90-second headways, including a 30-second allowance for station dwell times...","The Manhattean East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS", MTA, 1995.
The BRT operated more than 60 tph on the Brooklyn Bridge, under block signal control, when cable operation ceased.
The elevated sections - which didn?t see as much service as the trunk through the central business district since they were branches - had semaphore-type signals). 60 trains per hour (using five-car trains) were contemplated on the local tracks, and 30 trains per hour (using eight-car trains) were contemplated on the express tracks. It should also be remembered that when through-put was above 30 trains per hour, many years ago, the subway was a much more personnel-centered operation than it is today. There were several people on each platform (at least the more crowded ones) to control boardings and alightings, and there were several conductors on each train (before multiple-unit door control, at least) to encourage people to get on or off. With personnel being the greatest component of NYCT?s operating costs, it?s unlikely that many more people will be hired to do crowd control.
Somebody in the TA had better evaluate how effective their platform conductors are. My own observations indicate that they add about 15 seconds to dwell time. These observations are based on a comparison of express train dwell times at both 59th and Grand Central. More passengers interchange at 59th and the trains are more crowded at 59th, however the dwell time is considerably less at 59th.
The key to 40 tph operation is uniformity of operation. My observations indicate that the variability of tailway times is greater than that for headway times at all stations along the Lex. This indicates that no effort is made by NYCT to adhere to any fixed schedule. Systems that do operate at 40+ tph use vigorous methods to keep their trains on schedule at all stations. Such methods are neither labor nor capital intensive.
Funny, I don't recall apologizing for anything, smiley emoticon aside.
The quotes Mr. Bauman cited (and the information I provided about design headways in the original subway) indicate what was scheduled and what was designed, not what actually operates in the real world. As to whether the current Platform Controllers add to dwell time, which is the opposite of what they're out there for, well, Mr. Bauman sees what he sees, and I don't have data to either support his statement or refute it.
As to whether the size of the fleet should be increased, it should be and it is. Will it be enough? We'll see once all the cars are in and service is increased. All I was trying to convey was that it's easy to say, "buy more subway cars." It's another to arrange for the cars to be distributed, shopped, and stored in a planned, measured way. Saying "the subway should run more often" generates headlines in a mayoral election year; saying "build 7 new 20-carlength tracks in 148th Street Yard to allow for storage of subway cars" doesn't, except maybe in the neighborhood, which wouldn't want it anyway (I'm supposing both the numbers and the opposition here).
I've never ridden a system that schedules 40 trains per hour. Which systems schedule 40 trains per hour, and more importantly, which of them actually GET it?
Mr. Bauman and I are on the same side of the fence here. We both believe that a better job can be done with the existing infrastructure. I just have a more jaundiced view as to just how much can be done and how much can't be done.
David
I've never ridden a system that schedules 40 trains per hour. Which systems schedule 40 trains per hour, and more importantly,
which of them actually GET it?
Reference is made to an urban rail system that schedules and obtains 40+ tph in the "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual". Moreover, it discusses the "secret" to its success. I would trust that most of the TA's engineers are familiar with this tome because they violate almost 100% of its recommendations. :-) This system handles more passengers than NYC, so scalability is not a viable objection.
I'm not familiar with the manual (being neither subway scheduler nor engineer nor planner). However, I would imagine that obtaining 40+ trains per hour would involve certain dwell time mitigation methods that probably wouldn't be legal in the U.S., let alone New York. Am I correct in assuming that this system of which we speak is outside the United States?
David
However, I would imagine that obtaining 40+ trains per hour would involve certain dwell time mitigation methods that probably wouldn't be legal in the U.S., let alone New York.
The techniques used are both inexpensive and legal in the U.S. and could be employed in New York.
Am I correct in assuming that this system of which we speak is outside the United States?
If the system carries more passengers than NYC, then it has to be outside the United States. I discovered that from reading the MTA website. :-)
There is at least one other smaller system outside the US that has 40 tph capability but not sufficient demand. That system, in Ankara, is CBTC based and not directly applicable to NYC. There are two LRV systems in the US, that also provide 40 tph operation - also under CBTC.
I should have realized that the system had to be outside the U.S. Guess it's past my bedtime.
But my interest has been piqued, and I'm guessing that others would like to know as well, so: Which system is it, and what are the methods?
David
This document was prepared under by the Transportation Research Board (TRB). At least one member of the TA is a member of the task force that created it.
The section on Fixed Block Systems (p 3-9) gives the details. That digital clock is real low tech but it works. The TA's Grand Central clock does not work that way and is useless.
A more thorough analysis will show that the critical point is uniformity and not a specific limit for dwell time. The total of braking time, dwell time and acceleration times define the minimum headway. The braking time is the time to brake from the minimum cushion (750 feet in NYC) to a stop. The dwell time is the amount time the train is stationary in the station. The acceleration time is the amount of time required for the train to clear the station from a stop. The total of these 3 times (with a dwell time of 30 seconds) is less than 90 seconds.
Having now read the document Mr. Bauman was thoughtful enough to provide a link to, I can only say that it buttresses my arguments. As I surmised, one of the reasons for Moscow's success in getting throughput of 40 trains per hour involves something that would most likely not be permitted in North America (TRB's very words, though my supposition -- prior to reading the document -- that the method would be "illegal" probably overstated the case): closing the doors before all passengers have entered/exited. As to the "countup clock," I have seen it in operation in Budapest, where the system is based on Moscow's (other than Line #1, now called the "Millennium Line," which opened in 1896 and whose station design was the prototype for the Contract One IRT). I and the people with me (several of whom were longtime transit professionals) felt that a "countdown clock" showing the time remaining until the next train's arrival would be of more comfort to riders than one showing how many minutes and seconds have passed since the last train left. "Countdown clocks" are in use in several cities, and NYCT's Automatic Train Supervision project will involve such clocks -- while they're not doing this yet (since ATS is still being installed), the screens installed recently in many stations (that currently display the time and canned messages) are designed to interface with ATS and display this information.
The clocks at Grand Central show the Conductor how long the train has been berthed, giving a "nudge" to close the doors. As to the previous assertion that the Platform Controllers at Grand Central are more hindrance than help, one of the people checking dwell times there has informed me that when they're proficient, Platform Controllers are of tremendous help in minimizing dwell times.
I would also submit that acceleration time has increased since the TRB study was done (the information in the study is from 1995). The removal of field shunting has reduced top-end speed and increased the amount of time it takes to reach that speed, especially on up-grades (though the new cars do better on up-grades). In addition, "grade" timers and wheel detectors have been installed in many places since 1995. It should also be noted that automatic key-by has been removed from many signals over the past two years or so (not a factor in acceleration, but a constraint on throughput nevertheless).
Note: I am mentioning these recent developments not to opine that they should or should not have been done, rather to provide some insight into the factors faced -- for better or worse -- in trying to increase through-put in NYC's subway.
David
I think that "being neither subway scheduler nor engineer nor planner", you missed the underlying principle involved. I tried to briefly point out what the TRB task force also missed in my last post. Let me try to elaborate more completely.
The underlying principle is that:
1. if two or more trains travel along the same track
2. and if they behave exactly the same way at each point along the track
3. and they are all start from the same point on the tracks but at different times
4. and that these times are at equal intervals of say 90 seconds
then each of the trains will keep the same temporal relationship between one another at each point along the track e.g. they will always be separated by 90 seconds.
Consider the Brooklyn Bridge tracks during the cable car days. Trains left Park Row at 45 second intervals (they ran 90 tph). The same trains arrived at Sands St. at 45 second intervals. They did not collide because they kept the exact same speed profile going across the bridge. Trains neither gained nor lost ground on one another during the journey across the bridge. BTW the 45 second interval was due to a weight restriction on the bridge - not an operational limitation of the system.
This is the principle that they are trying to follow in Moscow. Clearly, trains powered independently by electric motor and operated by humans will not perform the same identical motions as those pulled by cable. The operators can make corrections to minimize accumulated deviations from indentical motion, if they know how far behind they are from their leader and how far behind they should be. An operator can adjust his speed or a conductor can adjust the dwell time to make sure that he stays 90 seconds behind his leader. All that is needed is a clock that indicates the elapsed time from when the leader passed. This clock could be between stations or within stations to perform this function. However, making the correction in a station makes more sense because dwell time is the most variable component of a train's speed profile.
Consider the difference between this system and timing only station dwell time. First dwell time regulation. Consider three trains: A, B and C. Suppose the operator of B is a jack rabbit compared to A and C. The distance and time between A and B will get shorter and the distance and time between B and C will get longer. Eventually B will catch up to A but not as fast as he might have had there been no dwell time control at the stations. However, B will catch up to A. B will be carrying a relatively light load because passengers will have continued to arrive at the stations at a uniform rate (Poisson distribution). Moreover, poor C will find that there are increasing numbers of passengers on the platforms waiting for him because B left early. (The reverse occurs in the more likely scenerio that B is driving a train with several dead motors.) :-)
Now consider following time regulation with the same 3 trains. Jack rabbit B arrives at a station earlier than expected. He will not be able to leave earlier. His reward for arriving early is to increase his dwell time. B is continually being forced back onto uniform schedule by syncing his departure to that of his leader; he will not be able to gain on him. The reverse occurs for B driving a slow train. There will be less dwell time in the station.
Clearly there are some additional points to consider. Given the fact that the trains keep the same temporal interval between themselves, what condtions are required to guarantee that they do not occupy same physical space within this interval? How is the headway affected by dwell time and how does the required maximum permitted dwell time relate to the real world? etc. etc.
The answer to these questions are rather straight forward. The system does work and I'd be happy to elaborate, if you can't work out these details for yourself.
I ran simulations for various headways using a simple spreadsheet. I was able to show that 40 tph operation is possible with the present signal system because the back to front distance between trains is always greater than 750 feet. Just let a train leave the terminal every 90 seconds and if they behaved reasonably identically then there would be no problem. I started seeing yellow signal aspects, when I added large random perturbations. The Moscow system removes the effects of such perturbations as quickly as they appear.
I did understand. The key word here is "if." IF every train were operated in an identical manner by the crew and IF loading were evenly distributed per car and per train and IF people boarded/alighted in an expeditious manner, then 90-second headways could be maintained. My argument is that in NYC, trains aren't operated identically (they should be, and they should be run according to the most aggressive profile possible consistent with safety, but they aren't), loading isn't evenly distributed per car and per train, and people don't board/alight expeditiously (some things can be done to shorten dwell time, and in places some things ARE being done, but people have gotten into bad habits and it's a tough job to change that).
Without wanting to stray too far into a discussion of political ideologies, I would submit that short dwell times in Moscow are a byproduct of the Russians' totalitarian recent past ("you will step lively -- OR ELSE!"). I would also wager that as the country moves farther away from that past, dwell times will increase. There were signs of this last year in Budapest when I visited: auto ownership is skyrocketing, and the reason given was that the people there wanted to be JUST LIKE US after being "under the thumb" for so long.
David
At present the morning rush hour passengers at Grand Central are distributed among 25 trains which have a dwell time of 34 seconds with a standard deviation of 9 seconds (my measurements).
What do you think will happen to this dwell time, if the same passengers were distributed among 30, 35 or 40 trains?
I believe 27 express trains are currently scheduled in the peak hour (it might be 26, going to 27 soon). I also believe the dwell time would go down, which I think is Mr. Bauman's point. The question, however, is whether the passengers would know that service has been increased (no matter how many announcements are made, no matter how many ads are placed in the papers, etc.) and guide themselves accordingly, or continue to do what they do now, which is to block doors, hold doors for friends/relatives/strangers/people who don't even want that train, stick backpacks/baby strollers/actual babies in the doors, etc. In other words, what's the point of scheduling 30, 35, or 40 trains in an hour if passenger behavior won't allow that many trains to operate through a given point during that hour?
I would suggest a more incremental approach, which seems to be what NYCT is doing. Add a train at a time as the various mitigation methods take hold, up to a point where either the line can't physically handle any more service (whether 30 trains as NYCT claims, 40 trains as Mr. Bauman claims, or somewhere in between) or the returns from the mitigation methods diminish to a point where scheduling more service wouldn't result in any more service actually passing through a given point in the peak hour, even though (theoretically) track and/or signal system capacity is still there.
David
I believe 27 express trains are currently scheduled in the peak hour (it might be 26, going to 27 soon).
These numbers seem reasonable and I'll be happy to use them as a working hypothesis.
The question, however, is whether the passengers would know that service has been increased (no matter how many announcements are made, no matter how many ads are placed in the papers, etc.)...I would suggest a more incremental approach, which seems to be what NYCT is doing. Add a train at a time as the various mitigation methods take hold, up to a point where either the line can't physically handle any more service (whether 30 trains as NYCT claims, 40 trains as Mr. Bauman claims, or somewhere in between)
I must respectfully disagree, although I realize an incremental approach is the only thing possible because of rolling stock shortages. I think "shock" therapy is necessary. I think a minimum 20% increase (27-32 tph) would be immediately noticed. The immediate result will be less crowded cars/platforms with 20% fewer people trying to cross the door thresholds.
Look at the variability of the current statistics (generally standard deviations are around 33% of sample means). If you wish to change rider habits, you must prove to them that their uncrowded train is not the result of the luck of a draw. You must move the mean a significant amount relative to the standard deviation to make any impact. Press releases don't do that.
Simply adding trains to the point of congestion won't work either. There must be a means to keep the trains on a uniform schedule. I am willing to concede that congestion will be reached with far fewer trains, when they are allowed to run in a random manner with respect to one another. This may account for the 10 tph difference between the TA's track capacity estimate and Moscow's.
Would Moscow's uptick clock work in NYC, when there is enough rolling stock and loading factors were reduced 20-30%? I think a controlled experiment can be made now. The Lex expresses enter Manhattan only 60% full. The variability for headways is still bad as are differences in loading between trains, etc. Let me suggest that Moscow style clocks be installed in all the Bronx stations and 125th St. Teach the C/R's and dispatchers how to recognize 4:37 and and 2:18. (13 tph for the branches and 26 tph for the merged service, the value for stations between E180th and 238th is left as an exercise for senior TA schedule makers). See what happens to service reliability.
"Let me suggest that Moscow style clocks be installed in all the Bronx stations and 125th St. Teach the C/R's and dispatchers how to recognize 4:37 and and 2:18. (13 tph for the branches and 26 tph for the merged service, the value for stations between E180th and 238th is left as an exercise for senior TA schedule makers). See what happens to service reliability."
That's a nice idea. You've stated in a previous post that you met the MTA Chair (was this Conway or the previous one?) So why not compose a letter with this idea worked out and send it to Peter Kalokow? I and perhaps others might sign onto it too (I would as long as you don't slant it anti-2nd Av) - and post the reply you get here on Subtalk.
I never got an impression that Stephen is anti 2nd Ave, but rather that he advocates the possibilities and QUICK solutions to improve the service. IMHO he makes a very believable point (especially if YOU stop to assume he's anti transit :-).
Arti
"Let me suggest that Moscow style clocks be installed in all the Bronx stations and 125th St. Teach the C/R's and dispatchers how to recognize 4:37 and and 2:18. (13 tph for the branches and 26 tph for the merged service, the value for stations between E180th and 238th is left as an exercise for senior TA schedule makers). See what happens to service reliability."
That's a nice idea. You've stated in a previous post that you met the MTA Chair (was this Conway or the previous one?) So why not compose a letter with this idea worked out and send it to Peter Kalokow? I and perhaps others might sign onto it too (I would as long as you don't slant it anti-2nd Av) - and post the reply you get here on Subtalk.
You've stated in a previous post that you met the MTA Chair (was this Conway or the previous one?)
What I said was the truth. That was a very long time ago and a very previous chairman. (I daresay that we are still paying for his debt service). I did not arrange the meeting but was included with about half a dozen others because of a constituency that I represented at that time. It was a most cordial meeting and eminently forgetable by all attendees. We wanted the MTA to institute a new policy on all its rail lines. The chairman was not adverse and gave us some very sound pointers as to who to approach in the various operating agencies and the order in which to proceed. Our political point man, the one who had arranged the meeting with the chairman, did not have the discipline to proceed along the lines that the MTA chairman proposed. We had a meeting with the wrong agency and our proposal was stillborn. A few years later another person was able to sandbag the MTA into instituting that policy by taking an entirely different political route.
So why not compose a letter with this idea worked out and send it to Peter Kalokow?
How many engineers, planners and schedule makers does the TA employ? How many consultants do they hire? These are the people who should be making such trial proposals. I will not bear them any malice, if they co-opt this idea. My guess is that the only honorarium they will receive, if they place it in the TA Suggestion Box, will be their severence package. :-)
That was a very long time ago and a very previous [MTA] chairman. (I daresay that we are still paying for his debt service).
So you were at the castle of the Holy Ronan Empire?
So you were at the castle of the Holy Ronan Empire?
I did not say the most previous chairman. :-)
"(Ron)So why not compose a letter with this idea worked out and send it to Peter Kalokow?
How many engineers, planners and schedule makers does the TA employ? How many consultants do they hire? These are the people who should be making such trial proposals. I will not bear them any malice, if they co-opt this idea. My guess is that the only honorarium they will receive, if they place it in the TA Suggestion Box, will be their severence package. :-)"
All kidding aside, you (and I too) spend a substantial bit of time posting here. You're passionate and articulate about your ideas. Why not address a letter to the Chairman and find out what happens? Come on, I dare you.
Or do you only know how to roar here on Subtalk?
What you have to understand is that Steve can't make the connection between the spreadsheet and the real world. In the real world T/O's come in a variety of skill levels, and so do conductors. Equipment works well most of the time, and falters some of the time. A procedure that looks great on a spreadsheet may fail miserably on the real thing.
In Europe, the underlying assumptions about lawsuits, liability, individual rights, and safety are not the same as in the US. They are not the same today as in the 1950's. The posts in this thread make that clear.
Now, Steve's math is great, and his ability to find the appropriate mathematical tool or model for the question at hand is laudable. I think an experiment with some of his ideas would be great. Maybe the "L" train's new systems will allow that.
But something else is required: Honesty and openness about recording and interpreting data. You start with a hypothesis, and see if the data support you - not bend the data to suit a prejudice, or imply that you have data when you do not.
...Steve can't make the connection between the spreadsheet and the real world.
I have learned the following from nearly 40 years in an engineering career, starting with the moon program. If something is theoretically possible, then it has a chance of success in the real world. If something is theoretically impossible, then it has no chance of success in the real world.
A procedure that looks great on a spreadsheet may fail miserably on the real thing.
No quarrel there. A procedure that looks bad on a spreadsheet more often than not looks far worse in the real world.
There are important lessons to be learned from the former type failure. Usually such disappointments are due to not including all parameters into the mathematical model.
We are agreed that it is theoretcally possible to achieve maximum service levels by adhering to a well controlled schedule with uniform temporal intervals between trains. It is fairly easy to show that uniform intervals with a concave-increasing dwell time function is also the optimum solution. It is also fairly easy to show that uncontrolled operation yields to operational extremes not the operational means. The data strongly suggest that the TA is operating the system at random with no effort made to control headways.
In the real world T/O's come in a variety of skill levels, and so do conductors.
The point is to provide T/O's and C/R's with the necessary tools required to adhere to a standard skill level with minimum variation. This hasn't been easy. Speedometers did not appear in all cabs until the 1980's. There is no system-wide time standard.
I'm sure is an easier job to adequately train 7,000 odd T/O's and C/R's, whose livelihood depends on their performance than to "educate" 3.5 million pasengers about how to queue in line while entering and leaving trains. The T/O's and C/R's can be replaced by machines that can adhere to such schedules so it they will probably improve their performance with such positive reinforcement. Just think of those station clocks as bio-feedback.
BTW, if the TA thinks that laminar passenger flow will solve their dwell time problems, then their car design is wrong.
In Europe, the underlying assumptions about lawsuits, liability, individual rights, and safety are not the same as in the US.
I was certainly struck by the vast number of seats in Paris Metro cars that were "reservee aux mutiles de la guerre des heures d'affluence". I'm sure that many of the medals so proudly worn by the citizens in the old USSR were similar battle awards. :-) Get real, the passenger injury rates for European and most non-Indian Asian lines are no better nor worse than that for the NYC subway.
Maybe the "L" train's new systems will allow that.
Perhaps you can persuade Mr. David to supply you with the performance criteria for this new system.
But something else is required: Honesty and openness about recording and interpreting data. You start with a hypothesis, and see if the data support you - not bend the data to suit a prejudice, or imply that you have data when you do not.
I think I have been honest supporting my hypotheses with published data that was freely available by all to verify. I have been very careful to use data supplied by the TA or some other official agency. The data isn't bent nor skewed. It simply shows that the TA is doing a lousy job; it should because they are doing a lousy job.
I agree with every point (or rather, reply) you've made-except the last one. I'll stretch a little and say the jury is still out.
Good. We've got some common ground to start with now. I'd like to see the R-143's get here and start making an impact.
By the way, are you going to the supplemental EIS meeting April 19th about 2nd Av Subway (MTA HQ, 347 Madison 6-8PM).
I encourage you to go and talk - even if you want to tell them to scrap the whole thing.
I'd like to see the R-143's get here and start making an impact.
Are you so willing to give up a seat? Did you take a look at the decreased seating capacity for these things? They're in the MTA's East Side Study.
By the way, are you going to the supplemental EIS meeting April 19th about 2nd Av Subway (MTA HQ, 347 Madison 6-8PM).
I'm usually occupied on Patriot's Day. Besides, the last person I spoke to at MTA Headquarters was the chairman. I'm afraid Doug Sussman's rank just doesn't measure up to my imprtance. :-)
"Are you so willing to give up a seat? Did you take a look at the decreased seating capacity for these things? They're in the MTA's East Side Study."
You're right. Let's tell MTA to send 'em all back to the factory and forget about it. No seats (no train cars) are far better. :0)
You're right. Let's tell MTA to send 'em all back to the factory and forget about it. No seats (no train cars) are far better. :0)
From the MTA's Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee
No Window Seats for New Trains
The Council wrote to NYC Transit in October to protest the agency's decision to forgo including standard conversational-style seating, which allows for popular back-to-back window seats, in its new R143 car procurement. The new cars instead will have IRT-style longitudinal benches running down each side. NYC Transit informed the Council that sideways-only seating will improve passenger loading times and that focus group participants have expressed satisfaction with the design. However, participants of earlier focus groups, observed by Council staff, expressed a strong preference for a design which included window seats, a fact the Council noted in its letter.
Now just what were you saying about bending data to support hypotheses? :-)
With light loads, conversational-style seating is preferable.
With moderate loads, it's a tossup -- with conversational-style seating everyone can sit, but those in the window seats are forced into an awkward position.
With heavy loads, conversational-style seating eats up valuable standing space. The general public probably doesn't realize it (which explains why the general public prefers it), but conversational-style seating that contributes to overcrowding.
Conversational-style seating is slightly better off-peak. Longitudinal seating is much better peak. Unless the TA plans on running different cars depending on the time of day, longitudinal is the right way to go.
According to the "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual" (TCQSM), the area occupied by a transverse seat is 5.4 sq ft and the area occupied by a longitudinal seat is 4.3 sq ft. Each transverse seat uses up 1.1 more sq ft of standing space. NYCT allocates 3 sq ft for each standing passenger in crush load situations. This means that the standee tradeoff for transverse vs. longitudinal seats is 0.37 passengers per transverse seat or only 3-5 per car under the most severe loading conditions. It's not going to make much of a difference.
Indeed, the TA tries to operate their trains within "guideline" capacity which is calculated on the basis of 4 sq ft per passenger (seated or standing). So the requirement for additional standing room is an admission that the TA intends to operate these trains in excess of their own published "guideline" capacities.
Of course the passengers would prefer transverse seating. Give them credit, they are not as gullible as TA brass would like them to be.
Of course the passengers would prefer transverse seating.
Are you sure of that?
go back a few posts to the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee report.
Your tally is off. Transverse seating yields space that's useless for standing. Even if the seated passenger offers to tuck in his feet, no standee is going to stand in that little space in front of a window seat. That's a waste of good standing room. And the seating is less flexible as well -- on long bench seats, passengers can squeeze and fit an extra person, but cars with transverse seating can't have long bench seats.
As for preference, I'll take longitudinal seating any day over transverse seating. Those window seats are a pain to get into and out of, and the view is usually marred by an earlier passenger's nose grime.
Your tally is off.
I don't think so. I did a sanity check before citing the figures in the TCQSM. I suggest you do the same by taking a tape measure and doing some measurements, while sitting down. The swivel desk chair I'm currently sitting in measures 21" across exclusive of armrests. It also measures 36" from its back to a point just beyond my feet. This makes for a fairly comfortable occupied area of 5.25 sq ft. If I were to tuck my feet in the front to back distance would be 28" or 4.08 sq ft. I think the TCQSM figures of 4.3 and 5.4 sq ft for a seated passenger adequately account for the personal space immediately in front of the window. I gather that the current London rolling stock no longer has arm rests from the interior pictures I've seen. There goes one more vestige of urban civilization.
And the seating is less flexible as well -- on long bench seats, passengers can squeeze and fit an extra person, but cars with transverse seating can't have long bench seats.
The problem with long bench seats is two generously proportioned individuals taking up the space allotment for three. The nominal seating capacity on the R32-42 cars is 50. This breaks down to 2+7+7+7+2 on each side. You might wish to due a visual check of you own to see how fully occupied such free form bench seats reall are.
That's a waste of good standing room.
Actually standing is fairly wasteful of floor space. A standing male might occupy as might occupy 1.4-1.7 sq ft. (TCQSM). However, such individuals require life support in the form of a path around him for other passengers. This is why crush loads use the figure of 3.0 sq ft per standing passenger. It means that each standing passenger is occupying only 57% of the floor space alloted for him. On the other hand, the minimum seated space is 2.6-3.2 sq ft. This means that a seated passenger is occupying 59% of the floor space alloted to him.
The design extreme of a car with no seats and all standing room was tried once in the mid 1950's. It was not well received, to put it mildly. Actually, it was run off the rails within a week.
Just for the record here are the calculated seating, guideline and crush capacities for three 60' series:
R1/9: 56; 145; 164
R32/42: 50; 145; 175
R143(no cab): 40; 145; 178
The theory is that the NYCT is supposed to supply enough cars to operate below guideline capacity at all times.
My figure of 178 for the R143 crush load capacity differs substantially from the figure of 240 given in Table 9D-13 in the MTA's Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS. I believe this figure to be in error. This figure would allot each individual 2.46 sq ft of space. The TCQSM contains the following description: "Totally intolerable: 0.2 m2 (2.2 ft2) is the least amount of space that is occasionaly accepted." In practice I think the only way to achieve such crush loads would be if every passenger were to take a deep breath and hold it between stations.
[In the real world T/O's come in a variety of skill levels, and so do conductors. Equipment works well most of the time, and falters some of the time. A procedure that looks great on a spreadsheet may fail miserably on the real thing.]
True. But you're overlooking the empirical evidence that (a) the NYC City transit system was designed for and used to have a significantly higher throughput than it now achieves; (b) higher throughputs are routinely achieved in other systems. And barring any evidence that there's a real reason why NYC should be different, there's no excuse for not matching those empirical records. If somebody could point to an actual improvement in safety or service, I'd say, OK, maybe it's good that they removed the field shunting or added all those grade timers. But the subway was pretty safe back then, and it's pretty safe right now, and I see no evidence that anything significant is actually being done to make it safer.
So far I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the slowdown and capacity problems are political and bureaucratic in nature. Now, as far as I can tell, we're seeing yet another example in the making, as the TA washes its hands of the remaining redbirds rather than keeping what it would need to provide adequate service levels. Of course no one wants to patch up old cars, but what are our priorities here -- people fainting in the trains, or saving money on maintenance? What a difference from what I was read about the BMT the other day -- if they needed something from a car, they took it to the shop and hung sliding doors on it, or riveted (almost said welded) a gap filler on it, or connected it to a car of a different vintage.
The BMT had a "can do" attitude that the MTA can't begin to match. What we seem to have are a lot of "can't do's" instead: Can't run more trains. Can't keep enough cars. Can't restore the shunt coils and brakes. Can't speed restore key-by's and remove grade timers. Can't close doors on passengers. Can't leave sick passengers. Can't fix the Manhattan Bridge. Can't fix the fire damage on the F. Can't go to OPTO. Can't eliminate unnecessary token clerks. Can't bring airtrain into Manhattan. Can't build a full length, four track Second Avenue subway in the five or six years it actually takes to build a full length, four track subway. Can't finish GCT access in the four years it actually takes to add GCT access. Can't restore LIRR service in the Rockaways. Can't run 11 or 12 car trains in overcrowded stations. Hey, with the new cars coming, what would it really take now to run 11 or 12 car trains on the most crowded parts of the IND and IRT? Nothing much, really. But that's too much effort for a complacent bureacracy that frequently seems more interested in blaming the passengers for poor service than fixing it. And that I think makes it a sure thing that nothing will get done, because if we try, we may fail, but if we don't try, we're guaranteed to.
(end rant)
I sympathize with that. For every question you have there are a hundred more.
Are you sure buraeucracy has nothing to do with it. The rules of running a 'road have gotten tougher.
And BTW, the NYC subway is safer today than it was 40 years ago.
[Are you sure buraeucracy has nothing to do with it. The rules of running a 'road have gotten tougher.]
Heh, that was a typo -- I said exactly the opposite of what I intended.
I think the bureaucratic and regulatory problems are very real, both for the MTA and just about everybody else.
[And BTW, the NYC subway is safer today than it was 40 years ago.]
Is it really? I don't remember very many major accidents, apart from that string of derailments after they stopped maintaining the track.
What a difference from what I was read about the BMT the other day -- if they needed something from a car, they took it to the shop and hung sliding doors on it, or riveted (almost said welded) a gap filler on it, or connected it to a car of a different vintage.
Not all the BMT's talent was motivated by a "can do" spirit. The BMT operations outsourced its car maintenance to an outside firm - an unregulated subsidiary of its parent. The operating company paid top dollar for very good maintenance work. Money so paid and did not have to be shared with the City as profits from operations. Profits from the BMT's maintenance subsidiary were unregulated and did not have to be shared by the City.
[Closing the doors before all passengers have entered/exited]
But in fact, this seems to happen frequently enough. If there's a warning, who can complain?
Then we're probably talking about Moscow or Seoul. I think the Moscow subway can certainly offer us some lessons.
I think the Moscow subway can certainly offer us some lessons.
Check the headings for maximum number of trains per hour and minimum interval between trains.
in the 50's Chicago TA claimed capability of 90" headways in the State St subway. while I cannot prove they did it, they claimed they could--and THIS with relays and other 'obsolete' hardware but in an era when impossible was not so often an acceptable answer. Here in the SF bay area, we have 1. a subway that says maintenace on a two track line prevents overnight service(Canarsie anyone?) and 2 a transit operation which can't relay LRV's at a stub terminal without engendering delays. Think the Times Square end of the 7 with trains being held east of the diamond while T/O's fiddle.
Think the Times Square end of the 7 with trains being held east of the diamond while T/O's fiddle.
They ran 36 tph out of Times Sq in the 60's and 70's.
Could that be because of clearances? And work rules preventing workers and trains from using the track at the same time?
MTA crews replace track, then head for cubbyholes and wait for a train to pass, then resume.
The first thing I would ask Mr. Baumann is "show me the data." His observations run counter to some of yours - but chances are better that yours were not merely "thought experiments."
[Saying "the subway should run more often" generates headlines in a mayoral election year....]
That is a key point. Over the years, countless politicians and "advocates" have built their careers by demanding improvements to the subway system, garbage collection, park maintenance, etc.; once in a great while, they might even offer a few semi-substantive suggestions. However, those same politicians and "advocates" always oppose implementation of any improvements, lest they lose campaign material or go out of business, respectively.
You're ON to something there - remember that solving problems only removes them from the table for the next go-round. After all, our schools have been "in crisis" since *I* was a kid 40+ years ago. With all the elections in between, one would think there would have been some degree of improvement over all that time. :)
More passengers interchange at 59th
Really? That seems pretty counterintuitive to me. GC has the shuttle transfer, the 7 transfer, and the cross-platform (i.e., convenient) local-express transfer; 59th has the N/R transfer and a terribly inconvenient local-express transfer.
Check Steve's data - if he really has any...
Really? That seems pretty counterintuitive to me. GC has the shuttle transfer, the 7 transfer, and the cross-platform (i.e., convenient) local-express transfer; 59th has the N/R transfer and a terribly inconvenient local-express transfer.
Much can be learned from reading chapter 9D of the Manhattan East Side Alternatives Study on the MTA website.
From Fig. 9D-9 the load levels for expresses entering 59th is 116% as opposed to 109% for those leaving and entering Grand Central. There is a further reduction at Grand Central to 102%.
The worst station insofar as express loading goes is 86th, where the load levels increase from 74% to 116%. Heaven help a poor passenger tryig to exit an express at 86th. It must seem like being a salmon swimming upstream.
The Lex expresses loose passengers starting at 59th. They loose an equal amount 7%. However, going from 116% to 109% is far worse than going from 109% to 102%. There are loading problems at 59th due to the Lex running substantially above its service level capacity. There is no such problem at Grand Central.
The Origin-Destination Pairs Table 9D-6 shows some surprising results. The number of passengers from Queens using the downtown Lex (am rush) exceeds those from the Upper East Side by quite a margin. The description of the conditions at 59th St indicates that quite a substantial number of passengers transfer from the express to the N/R trains.
This study is trying to push their "Build Alternative 1", the 2nd Ave to BMT via 63rd St alternative. This alternative is only practical, if a significant number of passengers are diverted from the Upper East Side to use this new service. The primary candidates would be those already changing at 59th and using the BMT. Table 9D-21 shows such proposed usage. Their estimate is that leave load level at 59th St would be reduced to 92% of service level capacity. This places a figure of 24% of service load capacity leaving at 59th and 17% entering for a total passenger interchange of 41% of service load capacity. The MTA clearly fudged their numbers. There are inconsistencies with the data presented in Table 9D-9. The figures are not that high.
[Increasing the size of the fleet is a fairly easy (though costly) way of increasing capacity, and, as the Daily News noted, it is being done. However, it is not the panacea some people would have us believe. For one thing, it creates some problems of its own, such as straining yard and shop capacity – this wasn’t an issue when the fleet was larger, in the 1970s for example, because cars were being stored on the mainline (and being vandalized) and they weren’t being maintained properly.]
But how did they handle it before the 70's, when the fleet was larger and service was still good? And how much of the shop space problems have to do with married cars straining shop capacity?
They handled it by not maintaining the equipment (which led to the near-collapse of the system in the 1970s) and by buying massive numbers of new cars, which didn't work as advertised and which ended up not being maintained any better than the 40-year-old cars they were replacing.
If you've got enough space in the shops to inspect/repair/whatever X cars per week, regardless of their configuration, and you've got X+Y cars per week to inspect/repair/whatever, you're in trouble. Expanding shop hours will take one just so far. Eventually, more space has to be found.
David
[They handled it by not maintaining the equipment (which led to the near-collapse of the system in the 1970s) and by buying massive numbers of new cars, which didn't work as advertised and which ended up not being maintained any better than the 40-year-old cars they were replacing.]
That was in the 70's, after the experienced people all took advantage of the 20 year retirmeent. I remember it well -- the subway went from smooth functioning to a disaster zone in the space of a few years.
But I'm referring to the years *before* that, from 1904 to maybe 1968 or so. Higher ridership, more frequent service, more cars, and seemingly adequate maintenance. What changed?
"That was in the 70's, after the experienced people all took advantage of the 20 year retirmeent. I remember it well -- the subway went from smooth functioning to a disaster zone in the space of a few years."
It wasn't just that. The TA was not spending enough time or money maintaining the fleet. I'm not blaming the TA for all of this - politicians screwed the subway.
There ya go ... and just so you have my own place in time, I hired on with the "ta" just as that 20 year nut was exploding in the fireplace. Came on board in 1970, quit in 1971 ...
I know a lot of people have been frustrated with me here and there because I keep bringing up politics here on subtalk but the problems which plague every ANGLE of mass transit are entirely political. It's a conga line of asskicking from the governor's office right on down to the poor sap in the token booth. And like it or not, every nuance of the job is nothing BUT politics ... only problem is that on the bottom end of the food chain, you're not allowed to chomp on a ceegar. :)
But it really IS about politics and amazingly, doesn't matter what your political inclinations are because the rules are the same no matter WHICH "party" you claim ... that's just the floor show for the rubes. Deep down, matters not. Someone stirs the pot up there, the boot connects with your butt down here. Doesn't ever change either.
Forgot one last connection before I can declare myself done on this - add FEDS, shake liberally and you have a colloidal suspension. There. I'm done now ... conga anyone?
Train Dude probably has a good grip on it, but breaking link bars isn't all that hard to be able to lift a car off its trucks and onto a sawhorse for work once the link's broken. But it would be interesting to see how much of a pain in the butt it is in the shop where you need to work on one car of a pair and then have to layup a perfectly good car eating space while the other car is worked on. Probably sitting there in the shop as well eating space that could be better used for another car in need of work so the two units don't get separated. So you've got a good point here as to capacity ...
Is it a pain in the butt as I would imagine, Mr. Dude? Or do they get shoved off onto an outside track so a diesel motorman gets to play shuffle the car(d)s when one half of a pair is ready to get recoupled and shipped back out? (inquiring mimes knead to no ya no)
2. The problems with the new cars are teething pains, and, with proper oversight by MTA and NYCT, will be ironed out.
Bull! Politics is the real problem. The people in the Cars & Shops Department have promoted people who are incompetant and or have serious conflicts of interests. Ex-TA managers represent Kawasaki & Bombardier on-site which adds to the problems.
From the political angle, one thing that needs to be understood is that the silly rules that have slowed trains, installed WD's, more timers than an olympic gymnastic team and all the other policies that have slowed the railroad, eliminated half-run turnarounds (the 137th Street to South Ferry #1 trains as just ONE example) will not be solved at the TA level. The pressures were exerted from above the MTA.
Politicos are chickenshirts and will always push political subdivisions such as the MTA to take the "easy way out" "path of least resistance" ... apply flame liberally to assemblymen and state senators, kick the governor's ass and you'll see things change. Politicians will always extend an ass-kicking to underlings when their own feet are held to the fire. And the MTA will get on the stick ONLY when they're called before the legislature to explain themselves in a nice all day long and all night long "hearing" on the problem. Get Paturkey's nads in a vise and you'll see those timers ripped out literally overnight and the shunts wired back in.
But as long as it's a polite attendance and a nodding of the head when MTA wigs wag their tongues, nothing will change. The MTA does NOT run the railroad ... take it from me, I worked for the state and there is nothing like TV lights to make them scatter like roaches.
Yeah, all true.
Even if we accept that those nine lines are operating at their maximum possible capacities, what about the rest of the system? I've posted many times that the 1/9 (the local stations; sending locals past them yields empty trains and dangerously crowded platforms) needs double the rush hour service it's currently getting, and the track capacity is there.
Which raises a question.
One way to free up rolling stock on the 1/9, for example, would be to stop every second or third rush hour train at 137th, and use the yard there as the layover before returning south into the business districts. No disrespect to Inwood and Marble Hill further north, but most passengers have left the trains by that point. Travelling, I notice many other systems have certain trains terminate before the end of the line.
Is there a simple reason it isn't done here? Technical constraints? Politics? I apologize if I missed the previous thread that answered this.
You mean that they're no longer using 137th as a terminal? Used to be that 1 out of every three did South Ferry to 137th and relayed south there years ago. If they're not doing that today, it's time for nostalgia again ... and you're right.
[Which raises a question.
One way to free up rolling stock on the 1/9, for example, would be to stop every second or third rush hour train at 137th, and use the yard there as the layover before returning south into the business districts. No disrespect to Inwood and Marble Hill further north, but most passengers have left the trains by that point. Travelling, I notice many other systems have certain trains terminate before the end of the line.
Is there a simple reason it isn't done here? Technical constraints? Politics? I apologize if I missed the previous thread that answered this.]
That's exactly what they used to do, into the 70's. I guess they don't want to spend the money on cars and personnel anymore.
Perhaps that's one of the reasons the 2 and 3 are so overcrowded now. In the days when there was more frequent service on the 1, people used to take it instead of the express.
Politics would certainly enter into this. "Short-ending" trains is not a bad idea, and electronic signs on the trains help. Electronic announcements at the stations could help too, as in "Your next train will arrive in X minutes."
I think the skip-stop service with the 1/9 effectively put and end to the 137th St. short runs, because that would have meant some passengers would have to wait for two trains to go by before they got one that stopped at their station.
[I think the skip-stop service with the 1/9 effectively put and end to the 137th St. short runs, because that would have meant some passengers would have to wait for two trains to go by before they got one that stopped at their station.]
Logical reasoning. I'd just end the skip-stopping altogether, and go back to the way it used to be. 1s should go all the way to 242nd, and the rush hour 9s should stop at 137th. Means more staffing, we know from elsewhere on this thread, but it is worth it until the rolling stock shortage ends.
[Logical reasoning. I'd just end the skip-stopping altogether, and go back to the way it used to be. 1s should go all the way to 242nd, and the rush hour 9s should stop at 137th. Means more staffing, we know from elsewhere on this thread, but it is worth it until the rolling stock shortage ends.]
OTOH, if they kept existing skip-stop frequencies and *added* local service to 137th nobody would be hurt. Also, rush hour direction skip-stops could run on the express track from 137th to 96th, saving four more stops -- that would make up for a slight increase in headway affecting passengers above 137th Street.
[OTOH, if they kept existing skip-stop frequencies and *added* local service to 137th nobody would be hurt. Also, rush hour direction skip-stops could run on the express track from 137th to 96th, saving four more stops -- that would make up for a slight increase in headway affecting passengers above 137th Street.]
Agreed, long-term. I was looking for ways to free up more trains short-term.
[Agreed, long-term. I was looking for ways to free up more trains short-term.]
Then I think you're right -- better to eliminate skip stop.
Another reason I think they got rid of the 137th St. turnaround -- until then, they ran 8 car trains on the local tracks to get a higher frequency. And of course that takes more train crews.
That's exactly what I proposed a few months ago on nyc.transit.
Through peak-direction trains to 242nd would run express on the center track, as on the 6 in the Bronx and, formerly, on the F in Brooklyn.
All stations would see service at least comparable to current service since twice as many trains would be running, half to 242nd and half to 137th. A few people would be disadvantaged; many more would have emptier trains and/or quicker rides. Consider origin-destination pairs in the morning rush hour, where zone A is north of 137th, zone B is between 137th and 96th, and zone C is south of 96th:A-A: no change from the present.
A-B: change of trains necessary.
A-C: same headways as the present, but a quicker (express between 137th and 96th) and less crowded ride.
B-A: same headways as the present (just ignore the short-turning trains), but a less crowded ride.
B-B: southbound, same headways as the present, but a less crowded ride and a near-guarantee of a seat; northbound, half the current headways and smaller crowds.
B-C: same headways as the present, but a less crowded ride and a near-guarantee of a seat.
C-A: same headways as the present, but a less crowded ride.
C-B: half the current headways and smaller crowds.
C-C: half the current headways and smaller crowds.
A-A sees no change and A-B loses out, but everyone else gains.
Now, what are the predominant travel patterns? Obviously, travel from everywhere to zone C is the most common, and everyone benefits, at the very least by reduced crowding and in most cases by either shorter waits or quicker rides. What about the sticky point, commutes to zone B? The largest destination there is Columbia, and I'd guess that most of the commuters to Columbia are coming from the south -- and they similarly benefit by the increased service, since the expresses are bypassing their station in the opposite direction.
Why doesn't the TA implement this? Probably because the overcrowding problems elsewhere in the system are of a different nature. Look at the E/F vs. the G/R in Queens, or the Q vs. the D in Brooklyn: most of the ridership is staying on for the long haul and prefers the express so the ride doesn't take all year. An appropriate response to crowded and behind-schedule locals in those cases is to skip local stops to get back on schedule. With the 2/3 vs. the 1/9, the situation is very different: the busiest stations are not way up in the Bronx; rather, they're local stops smack dab in Manhattan! Given the much shorter headways and the fast ride on the 2/3, most riders to northern Manhattan and the Bronx are probably on the express, and the ones who need the 1/9 transfer back at 96th. The crowds on the local are of people trying to get to the local stations themselves. Yet the TA reacts in its usual fashion by running close to half the rush hour locals as expresses! If you ever want a seat on a train at the height of rush hour, ride one of those not-quite-locals -- they're practically empty. (Don't bother listening for announcements -- if they're made at all, they're probably made either on the platform or on the train but not both.) Where are those crowds? Why, on the platforms -- specifically, the busy platform at 42nd and the narrow platform at 72nd. And each express that comes by dumps even more people onto the platform.
I've managed to avoid the maddening 1/9 commute for a while, but a few weeks ago, due to poor timing, I had to get from 34th to 86th at about 5:15pm. Should be simple, yes? So, I arrive at the express platform at 34th. Immediately, I see a 1 approaching on the local track. Mad dash downstairs, across, upstairs, towards the station exit thanks to a misleading sign, back around to the platform -- just made it. Next stop, 42nd. We sit. And wait. And wait. Somebody's muttering something on the platform PA but none of us can hear it. A 3 pulls in across the platform; we can make out a mention that a 3's pulling in (duh) but everything else is gibberish. Fine, I'll take the crowded 3 -- at least it's going somewhere. Okay, onto the last car of the 3, which isn't terribly crowded except that someone decided to block access to the center of the car with his bike. Quick ride to 72nd; no, no locals passed, so that 1 wasn't held up by congestion. The 3 takes off. A 2 goes by. Another 3 comes through. Two guys get off and express dismay that they're only at 72nd and they need to get to 81st (this was that rainy Wednesday two weeks ago); a few of us tell them that the local will take them to 79th. As the next 2 pulls in, the 1 finally arrives. No announcements that I can hear, since this time they apparently made them only in the train, but it's obviously running express. (Interesting, no? First it's held at 42nd; then it has to run express to make up time.) I inform the two guys, oblivious to all of this, to wait for the next train. And, indeed, even before the 1 pulls out, I see a 9 waiting just outside the station. (Interesting, no? Even with the 1 running express, the 9 is still delayed behind it. Could it possibly cost more time to get local passengers off your train than to simply make the local stops?) The 9 arrives and swallows up the crowd on the platform. And then, to add insult to injury, we're held in the station (I thought that was a strict rush hour no-no) for the arriving 3 train! That's right, the local passenger load off of at least five express trains and two locals (one running express) are all crammed onto a single train now. And then the glacial ride out of 72nd begins.
TA insiders, is my analysis incorrect? Now that new cars are arriving, what are the chances they'll be used to improve service to humans rather than to fish?
Well, it's been clear for years that most mainstream media outlets just don't "get" transit-related issues. Looks like we've got another example here. I haven't seen the article, but it sounds like it more or less parrots the MTA's line.
I say the J cannot be the worst subway line in the subway. First off, Alot of Motorman like it because it is the only Letter that is outside that long. Its kinda like the B Divisions version of the 7. Plus for those who live in Southern Queens and need to Get to Far Rockaway or Northern brooklyn like me who is a tour guide. Anyway its good for getting me to the A Train and it can do that faster than the E. An d sometimes to get to lower Manhattan, the J can be very useful. Also, I say the worst subway line in the Subway is the L. Its not that fun to ride on, the basic makeup of the line is boring. If I avoid riding any subway line, and when I become a Motorman if I could avoild running any line, it would definately be the L
>>>>>......and when I become a Motorman if I could avoild running any line, it would definately be the L<<<<<
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's cause ye don't know the timers me lad. Whens ye post on the road, don't farget ye depends lad.
You forget the L has a number of interesting sharp curves as it runs through Williamsburg and Bushwick. I do think that the line gets more interesting as it goes through B'way Junction and out to Rockaway Parkway.
The Sea Beach (N train) on the other hand is a drag to me, since almost all of it is a straight cut after some 'Plan Jane' subway running. Not all that interesting outside of the partial shared ROW with the LIRR Bay Ridge Line over by 65th Street, that runs along side it for a few stops.
BMTman
The Brooklyn part of the N might be boring, but the ride from 59th St to Queensboro Plaza is quite interesting, almost the rollercoaster as it climbs out of the tunnel.
It also can be the most boring on earth if they have a GO slow in the tunnel. I used to live by Broadway in the mid 1980-s and it took the MTA years to rehabilitate the tunnel.
John.
Glad Fred is in NYC this weekend so he cant read the bad press on the Slow Beach/ BTW who went with Fred?
Bob, see Gary Wengeroff's related thread. It is a capsulated version of the trip.
I will send Dave P. some pics on the trip, hopefully tomorrow.
BMTman
If he still isn't on Greenwich time...
You have carte blanche to run down my Sea Beach all you want to now. I saw you face to face. You're a good guy and I can see you have a real zest for living. I was thrilled you showed up, and if you read me well, then you know I had a blast of a time. If most of the Subtalkers are like our group yesterday we have one hell of a roster of classy people. Tell Stef that I'm not such a big A-hole after all. I even toured the North Bronx and came out of alive. How about that? Have a great day.
PS---You also saved the day when you lead us to the latrine. The whole pack of us were bursting at the seams---if you know what I mean. I look forward to my next trip to New York. Thanks Doug.
I actually like the open cut of the Sea Beach, even if it just just straight-a-way. It makes it feel more like a real railroad than a rapid transit line. Still, it ain't no Brighton ;)
Alas, I overslept yesterday and missed what must have been an incredible time. Fred - I hope you can make it back east sometime soon :).
Alas, I overslept yesterday and missed what must have been an incredible time. Fred - I hope you can make it back east sometime soon :).
Ditto for me. Although getting to Times Square on a Sunday is a pain in the ass considering I have no car currently.
It seems that JOEKORNERS website has benn hacked see it HERE before joe fixes it.
Peace.
ANDEE
ps- I had NOTHING to do with it
Whats the date today ?
Simon
Swindon UK
YES I know, but whadya gonna do
This one was self-hacked I think. I thought it was pretty good!
Joe sent me an email this morning when he put it up. Check the calendar ... Korman's a sick pup and I'm proud of him. :)
Text was as follows:
NOTHING
http://www.thejoekorner.com/index.html
Don't visit!
It's boring!
http://www.thejoekorner.com/index.html
Wait till next month.
--
No Sig File
Just as I thought. Everybody forgot that today is APRIL FOOL'S DAY!!!
The joke was on us...but it was a good one.
BMTman
Selkirk,
Was question No. 4 directed at you? :D
Heh. No comment. :)
Sounds like a guilty plea to me.....:-O
BMTman
That would be "no lo ncontendre" ... but I dropped dime on myself in a subsequent message. Old rule of state service - if it doesn't leave the property, then it wasn't really stolen. :)
It's boring BUT FUNNY LIKE ALL THE TEXET IS SCREWED UP
That was his intent ... for anyone who missed it, Joe's still got it squirreled away off his main pages at:
http://www.thejoekorner.com/index.html
And as to test question #4, while I didn't put the train back, I did leave it where it could be found. Joe invited me when he put that up and apparently needed to bust my chops about taking a train once. Without an assignment. But I've gotten better now - I always leave a note when I steal a train these days. :)
Hope you enjoyed the hacking ;-)
Priceless ... especially the reversed letters up top. And in answer to question #4, alas with police cars closing, had to dump the train and leave it ... but I'm sure they found it. :)
A TV commercial for the upcoming movie "Along Came a Spider" has scenes filmed in the Baltimore Metro Subway system. First, you see a train exiting the Carlin's Park portal north of Mondawmin; then, the star (Danny Glover?) is seen standing on the concrete walkway between the tracks in the section between Old Court and Owings Mills (median of Interstate 795). Glover (?) is next seen inside a train, holding a handgun. The camera distorts the dimensions of the train somewhat, so that our BMT-like car looks more like an IRT. (And there's nothing wrong with my TV!)
Today's field trip went smoothly and as planned (except for almost not finding Fred at the hotel). We had ten people in the group: Fred, John (Qtraindash7), Doug (BMTman), Dan (danilm), Bill "Newkirk", Thurston, Victor (VictorM), Jeff (BMTJeff), Rosanne (my wife), and me. Thurston gave us a quick tour around the TS shuttle area. We left TS on a SB N (R32) about 10:30,and got off at Canal St. We investigated the bridge station and exited the complex onto Centre St. We then stopped briefly at a restaurant where a few of us had roast pork buns. We then continued on Canal St. to the Manhattan Bridge and took a quick look at the bridge, followed by the walk up to the Grand St. station. This gave a clear picture of how far apart the Canal and Grand St. stations are. We took a D(R68) to DeKalb and switched back to an N((R68?) for the ride to Stillwell. We had lunch at Nathan's and walked by the new Brooklyn Cyclone ballpark. On looking back, someone noticed that the Cyclone was running, and so that became our next stop as Fred, Jeff, and I took the coaster. We then went to the B&B Carousel. Jeff, Dan, and Rosanne were the ones who went in circles. We left CI on an F(R46?) train to the highest station in the system, Smith/9th St. where we were able to see the Statue of Liberty. We then boarded a G(R46) to its last stop, Court Square, where we walked the long passageway for the transfer. It's quite different than being able to transfer across the platform at Queens Plaza. Instead of taking the QB line, we exited and transfered to the 7 after noting that the two stations could easily be connected for a free transfer.We took a WF Redbird to 74th St. and walked Fred down to the Q33 which took him to LaGuardia for his flight home. Thanks to everyone there today.
Glad it was a good trip. How did Fred Behave on the N Train and the Coaster. He was excited when we had dinner in LA 2 weeks ago, Wish i could have gone, but just got home from Hawaii on Friday, and still recuperating. Damn Long Trip
He was predictably excited on both. The three of us that went on the Cyclone were thrilled to see it running. Fred asked the guy who was sitting alone in the front seat (with his friend behind him) if he could join him in the front. He did, and Jeff and I sat in the third row.
Gary Wengeroff:
After I paid #4 Sea Beach Fred goodbye and relieving myself I went back on the #7 to Flushing and took some pictures of the Main St. Flushing station which was renovated since I was last there in 1994. It used be a pain in the neck station because you couldn't get around the on the platform very well at the time but now it is much better. Then I took the #7 back to 74th St. and changed to an E train which consisted of R-46s and rode it to 53rd St. and 7th Ave. in Manhattan. Then I went to the Central Park Carousel and took a ride on that one also. Then I walked back to Grand Central and took the 5:20 Hudson Line local back home to Hastings-on-Hudson.
BMTJeff
Glsd to finally meet up with you. I can tell you this. You're a big kid just like me. I saw you on the Carousel and you had thet time of your life. You also rode the Cyclone, and that makes you a blood brother. Take my word for it, there is no other ride like it in the world. At least I haven;t come across one, and rode on many of them. I hope you enjoyed our outing as much as I did. Have a great week.
I certainly had fun on the carousel. I still think it is the best carousel I've ever ridden and it is one of the very few carousels that still has a ring chute so a rider who is riding on an outside row horse can try to go for the ring. The organ on the B&B Carousell has a very nice sound to it. When it is at its best it has a deep mellow sound in the bass and the mid-range and as you reach the treble which is the melody section of the organ it is almost bird like or whistle like in its tone. The are probably very few organs like it remaining.
BMTJeff
To make Fred's day, I presented him a photo, from my 1994 subway calendar. It was the July image of what else, D-Types on the Sea Beach on a June 22, 1975 fantrip. After lunch at Nathan's at Fred's request, we all autographed the photo. Fred said he would have it framed when he returns to the west coast.
When Doug BMTman posts the pictures he took today, they featured various group shots. To make it interesting, I brought along an R-16 front route roll sign. When we posed for a group shot in front of Stillwell, had it showing 4-SEA BEACH. That made Fred's day, one shot we had the sign 1-BRIGHTON to break Fred's shoes ! Fred loved it all, as we all did.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had assumed that if you were with us on the trip you probably would bring something. You've never been known to show up on a field trip without some type of sign or picture. The picture was particularly nice in that it gives Fred something to remember the with.
BTW - My thanks to you for being an excellant tour guide. I was wondering when Doug BMTman got on Pacific St, what would have happened if he was positioned at either the 5th or 8th car ?
If we rode a R-40 slant to Coney Island, we all would have had bad backs !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill, the way that you held that route sign in the photos, if "The Price is Right" ever hires male models, you'd be a shoo in.
"Hey Bill, the way that you held that route sign in the photos, if "The Price is Right" ever hires male models, you'd be a shoo in."
Zman,
The Price is Right couldn't afford to pay me !! HAR HAR HAR HAR !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
So then "The Price is Wrong"?
Have Carol Merrill hold the sign.:-)
Or perhaps Vanna White.
Bill & I almost thought Fred was playing a April Fools joke on us as by 10:15 it was just three of us hanging around at Times Square.
The trip was very enjoyable for me as well. The tourist walk along Canal Street & view of the Manhattan Bridge from above ground were an added treat.
I'll add my two cents worth:
- The new OPENess at Times Square is very nice (you can look over & see the N pulling into the station.
- The way Fred's face lit up when he saw that the roller coaster was running is something I'll remember for a long time.
- The sight of us all around a table at Nathan's was another of those moments, as was Jeff, & Dan going for the Brass Ring.
- Doug & I took a different return route out of Coney Island (he going back to Canarsie, me catching the LIRR at Atlantic Ave). We went up on the IRT platform at Atlantic Ave and saw the construction going on. A lot of MOW equipment there too (engine, rider car, flats, etc.)
It was another very pleasent railfan experience, sorry more of you didn't join us. Thanks to Gary for all the thought that went into making this a great Field Trip.
Mr t__:^)
And thank you Gary for doing this. Needless to say, if you saw the look on my face yesterday you know for a fact that I had a real blast. Wow!!!!! And my former adversary, now buddy, BMT Doug showed up. That was great. What a great group of guys, and can you believe it, Big Bill Newkirk gave me that color Sea Beach photo, and Thurston that Mets cap. You can take it to the bank, no one will put their grubby fingers on either mimento, I can tell you that. And I'll cherish them both. More than that, however, I will appreciate you guys showing up and making this such an enjoyable experience. Give Rosanne a big hug for me, will you? She was a real trooper out there. I owe you a big one Gary. You've made a friend for life.
I'm just glad you had a good time and look foward to your next trip east whenever it may be.
I know that this site focuses mainly on rail transit systems and
railroads, but would rollercoasters be considered on-topic or
off-topic in SubTalk? Because technically speaking, rollercoasters
are "railways", even though they don't get you from point A to point
B. The reason I ask this is because when Coney Island's Thunderbolt
was demolished back in November, there was a thread about it here in
SubTalk. I'm just wondering if an occasional rollercoaster related
threat in SubTalk would be accepted, since I'm both a transit and
rollercoaster fan. Also, many old amusement parks were "trolley
parks".
I love roller coasters, also, but I think they are a little off topic.
More than a little off-topic.
Oh come on! They are more on-topic than a lot of the stuff we talk about. I would love to discuss some threads about ride overcrowding (2 hour+ lines) and ways to increase capacity (automatic block signaling!)
Well they are more on topic than the numerous political/sports/movie threads that seem to abound here.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe it's time to start...
Rollercoastertalk!!!!
heypauls ELEVATORTALK would not consider rollercoasters off topic.
Peace,
ANDEE
heypauls ELEVATORTALK would not consider anything off topic.
No, there is no need to.
There are already NUMEROUS roller coaster sites out there, and a few of them have chat boards, message boards, etc.
http://www.ultimaterollercoaster.com
http://www.rcdb.com
http://www.coasterbuzz.com
http://www.geocities.com/robbalvey
http://themeparkguide.danimation.com
There's a few sites to get y'all started. Go from there!!!
(I admit, yes, I AM a roller coaster nut. More nut than anything though.)
Personally, I think they should have made a transfer between the Coney Island rollercoasters and the B,D,F, and N at Stillwell.
;-D Andrew
I think it was on the Forgotten New York site that I saw some reprinted articles from the early 20th century describing what we know as roller coasters at Coney Island. Only they didn't call them "roller coasters" - they consistently called them "scenic railways"!
ANyone know when the term "roller coaster" came into common use?
According to this ARTICLE (SCROLL DOWN) they were still being called "scenic railways" until at at least 1925.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, I concur with that info. I just found a GREAT book on roller coasters, perhaps if anyone was interested, you might want to look for:
The American Roller Coaster by Scott Rutherford -- published by MBI Publishing Company. http://www.motorbooks.com
It's 160 pages, lots of excellent b&w and color illustrations, and lots of very informative text. I paid $29.95 for it (list price).
Yes, I think that is the same article I saw.
>>> I saw some reprinted articles from the early 20th century describing what we know as roller coasters at Coney Island. Only they didn't call them "roller coasters" - they consistently called them "scenic railways"! <<<
I think the term "scenic railway" was used to describe a gentler longer ride which was a predecessor to the roller coaster in America. Once the Cyclone was built in 1927, it was clear that the term "scenic railway" was not really descriptive of that ride.
I remember seeing a ride which might be described as a scenic railway at Coney Island in 1951 or 1952 from a train between Stilwell and 8th St. The start and finish of the ride was on Surf Avenue, and it ran under the El tracks to the North side of the El where there was an extensive track. None of the turns seemed as tight as the Cyclone's turns, and the hills and drops were not as severe, but it was a much longer ride. I really wanted to take a ride on that attraction, but when I returned in 1955 with enough money in my pocket to ride, it was gone. Does anyone else remember that ride and its name?
Here is a good site on the History of Rollercoasters. Here is another site.
Tom
I think the term "scenic railway" was used to describe a gentler longer ride which was a predecessor to the roller coaster in America. Once the Cyclone was built in 1927, it was clear that the term "scenic railway" was not really descriptive of that ride.
My fuzzy memories of Willow Grove Park include the Thunderbolt (roller coaster) and The Alps (scenic railway). There was also a kiddie coaster called the Jackrabbit.
I suppose technically Roller Coasters are off topic on this website, but why would some of you care a lick anyway? We've brought up all sorts of subjects on this line, and it has led to some nice exchanges between us. For me, the Sea Beach and the Cyclone are synonomous. Whenever I'm in Brooklyn and riding my favorite train I automatically think of Coney Island because that's where I'm going. And if I'm going there you can be sure that if the Cyclone is open, brother I', riding it. So for me the subway and roller coaster are synonomous. I'd like to get some more of your take on this. Does anyone out there share the same feelings?
hey Fred are you home yet?
Yes, I got home real late on Sunday night----or was it Monday morning?
I had a hell of a time there, made some new friends and now me and BMT Doug are buddies. It was a hell of an experience, I can tell you that. And yes, I did ride the Cyclone, front seat and all. It was a great three day vacation. I hope to go to New York again this summer/ Maybe we can touch base then.
Glad to hear you and Doug are friends. I've met him, too; he's a good man. You know, it's a shame in a way that BX55 couldn't be there. We haven't heard from her lately.
I think I made peace with her some time back. I've got to work on Stef and Subwaysurf and then my slate is clear.
I share the same feeling you do about the "Cyclone". Whenever I'm out in Coney Island I've got to ride the "Cyclone" provided that it is open. There is probably no other roller coaster like it in the world. Now if they want to make Coney Island even better they've got to build a reproduction of the "Thunderbolt" roller coaster. If they do that that can attract many people to Coney Island once again. I would also build an accurate reproduction of an old time Coney Island carousel and put an organ on it just like the one on the B&B Carousell and you've got to have a ring machine on the carousel as well. There would help to bring back Coney Island to some semblance of what it used to be.
BMTJeff
That "another site" is quite out of date....their last timeline entry is "Superman" at Magic Mountain in 1997....since then coasters have hit the 300 foot mark in the USA and even taller in Japan (I think somewhere around 358 feet if I'm not mistaken....now THAT'S a helluva drop!!)
I think that ride you mentioned was called "The World's Longest Ride" and I remember seeing it from an el train in 1948, but I never rode it.
An "active adult community" is under construction adjacent to the site of the Delanco station; developer says the light rail station was a significant factor in the location decision. Story in Sunday Inkie.
This confirms what we've known all along: transit development makes good economic sense. It's just another example of that, along with HBLR, the 63rd St line (and its effects on Roosevelt Island and the Queens waterfront), Archer Av (and what it triggered in Jamaica), Atlanta MARTA's effect on downtown Atlanta's development, etc. etc.
Maybe now the NIMBYs will finally shut up and let the project go on.
I hate NIMBYs. Yes, I hope they shut up forever.
I just got back home. I had a great time today!!
I was worried about running late, since there were bus delays. But since I had a fast driver and a 300 series Orion the ride was fast.
The speeds the bus got to were amazing (I'd say near 60 in that stretch between Little Neck and Bayside. Traffic was light.
Managed to show up at Times Square early, just before 9:30am.
Most everybody else came 10 or after.
We were lucky, our first ride was on an R32 N train. Due to ongoing construction, all downtown service was on the express. Unfortunately there was an R in front of us.
We got off at Canal and walked through the bridge station. There was some flooding there.
We then walked from Centre St. to Grand street with a stop at a chinese food place for roast pork buns (I didn't have any, it would spoil my appetite for Nathan's). It is a somewhat long walk from Centre to Grand, it definely will inconvenience many that use the Grand St. station when the "flip" happens. At least running the M 24/7 to Brooklyn would help the problem, since the Bowery station is alot closer. Chinatown had other treats as well (mystical girls).
At Grand St we boarded a lumbering Hippo D train as it crawled to Dekalb, where we got off for an N that came a moment later. Too bad, that was a Hippo also. The R68 ride was, well, slow. At least the Sea Beach line looked nice.
We took it to Coney Island and did some photo-ops, then Nathans.
Nathan's was great, they do have some of the best burgers and fries in NYC.
After Nathan's we walked around C.I. abit, those of us who were brave enough rode the cyclone (no, not me!)
Then later an R46 F train up to Smith-9th. That R46 sure felt fast compared to that R68 we were on earlier.
At Smith-9th we got a G train, which came immediately. The R46 quickly got crowded and I can see why G riders are upset at the proposal to cut it back permanently to Court Square. The G was actually reasonably fast, and so was the tunnel under Newtown Creek, we got up to 45mph in there.
The passageway to E/F is too long, and I can see now the MTA has to find a way to keep the G on Queens Blvd. Between not coming up with better plans for Chinatown and G train riders, it is in my opinion the MTA does slight poorer minority areas to increase service for wealther ones (the new V train benefits Forest Hills-Kew Gardens riders the most).
We later took a 7 train from 45-Courthouse. The Redbird wreaked of oil from that leak in the Steinway tubes. Sure can't wait for summer!
Everybody who was left got off at 74th. I stayed on my trusty 7 train which ran smoothly (as always) to Main street where I boarded the N21 bus back home.
I had a great time today, and it was very nice meeting all of you once again, and for Sea Beach Fred, we won't shut up until your N train is back on the bridge, not bogged down in the bowels of Manhattan with the (R)arely!
Sea Beach is a wonderful line, it is high time the MTA stop neglecting it.
BTW I have an additional email address: Qtraindash7@aol.com
AOL came with my computer for a year
Nice meeting you John as well as the others who took Sea Beach Fred on the town !
Bill "Newkirk"
And Bill it was great to see you. I love that picture you gave me, and my wife will be going out this afternoon to match the picture with a frame---and it will hang in a very conspicuous place where eveyone can eyeball it. Hope you had a great time because I sure did. It was great weekend for me all around, and I did NOT get upset when we took that picture with the Brighton roll sign paraded in front. Besides, I think I was outnumbered by the Brighton people in my group. Anyway, I'm glad you could come. It was a great day for me, and I hope for you.
Your pal Sea Beach Fred
[Your pal Sea Beach Fred]
Well, lets take a vote ... is it a good thing that Fred is our pal now? .... Fred I can S-E-E you smiling !
Your pal Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston have you seen Dougs excellent picture?
Peace,
ANDEE
Thurston, you're a gentlemen and a scholar, and you have made a friend whether you want it or not. I'm now wearing that cap you gave me and it looks great. Blue cap with orange brim and orange lettering. Just classy. I hope you enjoyed yesterday's outing as much as I did. I can't stop talking about it and probably will drive this website nuts with my posts on the subject, but I really am looking forward to doing this again and again in the future. I have your card and I will keep in touch. Have a great week.
Good of you to come. I enjoyed your company and hope to had a safe return to your North LI digs. I had a blast. I was very impressed with our group. A diverse, yet classy bunch. Maybe if enough of us play to the gallery, the TA will finally give the Sea Beach a break and stop neglecting it. Thanks for your support yesterday. It made my day.
And have fun in London.
This is not a gripe: more constructive criticism.
Write 1000 times: “I will not install a software upgrade immediately before I go on vacation. This tempts the software gods too much!”
How do I know? BTDT.
John.
Today, at about 11:30 am, I was taking a D train across the bridge to Brookly, and I noticed something extraordinary on the south side: A TRAIN!! It consisted of a diesel locomotive, a former subway car and a couple of flatcars. It was in the middle of the bridge, but a bit closer to Brooklyn. The whole east side of the bridge was full of MTA people. It is quite a surprise to see that they are actually doing something for once.
I saw it too! I thought I was going nuts! I went by around 5pm. The work train was still there and there were about 15 MTA people walking around and/or sitting down doing nothing really.
Well, it didn't land in the East River, so that's a step in the right direction :-)
Actually, the H tracks were turned over to the TA as of March 14th for use by work trains. Regular service should begin July 1 with the A/B tracks in use for work trains and transfers through July 31. The A/B tracks close August 1.
Why not run service on both sides of the bridge from now until August 1? Gradually ease in the W and the Broadway Q, and begin terminating some B's and D's at 34th.
How are you going to run service? Waste all that money printing flyers and giving OT to RTO folks. The next pick has the new Broadway service in it. If you were to start service now, how would you pay for it?
I don't know, I'm just tossing out a vague idea. Forget the flyers -- just reroute a few trains. Get people used to the Q on Broadway and to the W at all. It probably wouldn't be workable but, if it is, it might ease the pain come July 1. Or it might not.
I'm going to love the looks on tourists' faces when instead of City Hall they see the east river after Canal. At least they won't get lost at DeKalb or Pacific, all northbound trains (M excepted) go back to Broadway.
>>I'm going to love the looks on tourists' faces when instead of City Hall they see the east river after Canal. At least they won't get lost at DeKalb or Pacific, all northbound trains (M excepted) go back to Broadway.<<
The tourists always look like that.
It's the regular commuters who i'll get a kick out of!
Aren't tourists allowed to just get on a random train and let it take them wherever, get off when hungry and have a look around?
I remember doing that in NY a while ago.
Okay, okay, I guess I'm putting the cart before the horse. There's no way this would work without fixing the PA systems first.
Tourists can be annoying and stupid, since they often are confused and really don't care if they block stairways, train doors, and turnstyles.
Tourists can be the most inconsiderate people I run into in the city, blocking sidewalks and storefronts. Only tourists I don't mind encountering are railfans since they know how to use the system! :-)
Part of the reason I like Chinatown east of Bowery (especially E.Broadway), it's the area tourists don't frequent, just lots of mystical girls.
---Qtraindash7----is also at aol.com----->
The H tracks are not ready for revenue service. No 3rd rail power and no signals. How would you propose that we run service - horse-drawn carts?
It appears the signals are on from I could see on the A/B tracks.
It appears the signals are on from I could see from the A/B tracks.
>>>this was corrected due to a typo, which is a direct result of low
TLC for this lonely train<<<
They've always been on. I never could understand why.
Well, that would be a good race -- Horse-drawn cart on the south side vs. an R-68 B train on the north side. Wonder what odds OTB would have? :-)
My bets are with the horse-drawn cart.
Horses are faster than hippos.
I'll go with the R-68. No horse in it's right mind would cross the bridge at the same time as one of them heavy Hippos.
Try a Triplex instead of a horse. It would crush an R-68.
Oh my aching deck!
I didn't see you on my trip. Wish you could have joined us. But I did get word the Sea Beach will NOT be using the bridge when the switchover takes place July 1. Tell your friends at the MTA that Sea Beach Fred in California is really pissed off about it. I'm sure they'll be impressed like "Hey Dude, who the hell is Sea Beach Fred?"
"But I did get word the Sea Beach will NOT be using the bridge when the switchover takes place July 1."
Aaaawwwwwwwww.
N Broadway Local
Since some managers monitor this site, they likely know who sea beach fred is. I'm sorry that we didn't hook up either but the crazies have hit the bronx. 3 months to go and all of a sudden my bosses figured we better get set for the Flip service. So much to do and so little time. Safe trip back
I didn't see you on my trip. Wish you could have joined us. But I did get word the Sea Beach will NOT be using the bridge when the switchover takes place July 1. Tell your friends at the MTA that Sea Beach Fred in California is really pissed off about it. I'm sure they'll be impressed like "Hey Dude, who the hell is Sea Beach Fred?"
Is it safe to assume that all the third rails have been energized from the Manhattan Bridge through Canal St. station ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Better safe than sorry. Assume that they are live all the time. The work trains do not need an electrified rail, so it might not be.
When does School Car get a crack at it??
Someone has to make up the punch signs for Canal so Dekalb knows what is coming over, there wan't a W 11 years ago. I assume they are punching a Canal, might they punch somewhere before that?
[It consisted of a diesel locomotive, a former subway car and a couple of flatcars.]
If it was a former subway car, what is it now? A few of tons of scrap metal?
Maybe it should have been a BMT standard. After all, they opened subway service on those every same bridge tracks in 1915.
I'm another witness. Decided to take the 'D' from Brooklyn back to Manhattan, but sat on the outside, first to cop a view of the remnants of Myrtle Avenue station and the mass-transitscope (hard to see much of anything) and then for the view of the river and Willy-B. Only glanced over at the last second to see the work train and crew. This musta been about 3pm or so. Wish I'd been on the inside of the R-68 that time!
Also saw an upside-down (half-turned, I guess) diamond 'W' route designator on an R-40 Slant which was laying up in 42nd Street waiting to return to Stillwell (this was on the way to Brooklyn earlier in the day).
Greetings! Since know some of you visit Chicago-L.org regularly, I thought you might be interested in an important situation with the site. If you do not, I am terribly sorry for clogging the message board, as I am not a believer in "spamming" people...
If you have tried to access Chicago-L.org in last few days, you may have noticed that the site is not coming up and seems to unavailable. Rest assured, I have *NOT* closed Chicago-L.org. As a matter of fact, I have updates that are waiting in the wings to be added to the site.
What has occurred has to do with my internet service provider (ISP) and, unfortunately, there's nothing I can do personally to rectify it. Chicago-L.org is hosted by an organization/server called chinet.com. The DSL service that Chinet used to connect their server to the web, Chicagolands Northpoint DSL, went bankrupt (!). Obviously, if a company is bankrupt, it can't pay its bills and AT&T cut off most Northpoint customers Thursday night (3/29/01) at 2030 hours. Chicago-L.org (and chinet.com) has been off-line since then.
Chinet.com has ordered a new T1 with AtWork. They've promised Chinet it will be operational within 21 days, as of 3/27. Hopefully that will be the case. Unfortunately, I sort of just have to just sit and wait. Rest assured, the administrators of chinet.com are doing everything they can. Hopefully, this will be short-term. I do not wish to frustrate or lose visitors to Chicago-L.org, so please be patient. Thanks for your understanding.
Regards,
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
My DSL service at home is also provided by Northpoint but it has remained up so far. Although my ISP is scrambling to provide alternate means of connectivity. (Note: This doesn't affect the server for www.nycsubway.org but it will affect the (pretty useless) Subtalk archives.)
A friend's workplace lost their Northpoint DSL service with no warning last Thursday. They are still scrambling to find a new DSL service quickly as the loss is crimping their engineering business. Apparently Northpoint went Chapter 7 and didn' warn anybody. ISP's all over the country are affected.
However there were already reports about the company faltering. One only had to see the writing on the wall.
Of course, I was supposed to get Northpoint DSL. The dumbass installer connected the line to the wrong box, and then the ISP said I have a bridge tap on the line (totally untrue for various reasons). But the ISP is giving me 6 free months of dial-up in addition to the 3 I got awaiting installation, and I haven't paid them a single cent yet (and my one-year contract has been suspended, yet they haven't sent out for me to return the modem yet).
AT&T bought up much of NorthPoint's infrastructure but not its customers. So as AT&T takes this stuff over, service to affected customers is simply being turned off, often without warning.
--mark
AT&T bought up much of NorthPoint's infrastructure but not its customers. So as AT&T takes this stuff over, service to affected customers is simply being turned off, often without warning.
AT&T purchased much of the infrastructure but not the DSL portion of it, since they did not want the customers (unprofitable, and the source of NorthPoint's financial problems). NorthPoint - not AT&T - is turning off the customers as their remaining funds run out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the reassurance. I haven't visited the site in many months, but by coincidence I tried to go there a few days ago, through a link from David Cole's site, and I was most disappointed. Now I know to keep trying.
Thanks for the understanding, all! I have been talking to various friends and apparnetly several DSL companies went belly-up in the last couple weeks, with a lot of Northern Illinois (among other places) affected. Of course, that doesn't help get Chicago-L.org up any faster, but at least I'm not alone!
Hopefully I'll be back up within a week or so.
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
An update on Chicago-L.org's status, for those that are interested:
As of Thursday April 5th, Chinet (Chicago-L.org's host server) will receive its new T1 connection on April 16, 2001. As a result, chinet.com and Chicago-L.org will (tentatively) be back on-line on Tuesday, April 17th. Yeah, it's a little over a week away still, but at least we know have a date to work with!
Regards,
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
April 17, eh? Well, good-oh! Going into severe withdrawal symptoms, I was. In the meantime, I suppose I'll just have to wile away the weary hours with SubTalk and Belgian Trappist ales, faute de mieux.
The near-simultaneous crashes of Chicago-L.org and SubTalk do create a rather scary picture, though. Simple prudence seems to demand the establishment of some additional backup transit sites; frex, FenelonPlaceElevatorTalk, or www.kathmandu_trolleybus.com.
Alan Follett
>April 17, eh? Well, good-oh! Going into severe withdrawal symptoms...
Well, it's good to know that people care!!
Yes, I have to admit: this whole incident has caused me to give serious consideration to the creation of a mirror site in case this happens again. We'll see what happens, though. It's tough to find affordable web space when your site is over 200MB!!!
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
As of about 4:30pm today (Friday, April 20th), Chicago-L.org is back on-line! We have weathered the storm!
The site was originally tentatively scheduled to come back on-line around the 16th, but that obviously didn't happen. Chinet.com had to order a new T1 connection to get their server back on-line. The new router and T1 box for Chinet were installed on schedule on the 16th, but Ameritech had been saying they have a broken wire somewhere for about four days. So, then I had to wait for Ameritech to get its act together.
There will be an update of material that's been in holding tonight around 8pm CDT or so. A second wave of updates will follow this weekend. And, of course, regular updates will follow as usual.
Thanks to everyone who emailed me and showed concern for the site being down. It is nice to know that the support is out there. I am looking into setting up a mirror so that this does *not* happen again.
Again, thanks to everyone for their support and concern!
Regards,
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
And welcome back! I expect to hear that during the lacuna the West Chicago and Waukegan extensions were completed and placed into service, to universal acclaim!
Alan Follett
Well, it looks like I jumped the gun a bit. Chicago-L.org is indeed back up, but those of you who went to look for the promised 8pm CDT updates last night were unfortunately disappointed. Apparently, the server is back up, but something is not fully operational because I can't FTP in reliably. This probably just hasn't been re-setup yet. I will update as soon as possible. Thanks for everyone's patience.
Graham
http://Chicago-L.org
Coming back Sunday from the Jersey Shore, I noticed the near-completion of the Newark Airport Station between Elizabeth and Newark-Penn Stations.
I noted the terminus of the monorail onan adjacent ROW.
Asked a conductor when it would be opening -- "end of the year" -- but he was worried about new ridership. NJT may run a NY-Penn to Rahway shuttle to handle the extra volume of passengers with big bags.
My question is -- why couldn't the PATH be extended from Newark-Penn to the Airport? This would seem to be a nice cheap way to make a one-seat ride from Manhattan. Or, if that is implausible, an extension of the Monorail to Newark-Penn?
With all of the discussion of the Airtrain, this very useful example of how to do a "train to the plane" has been forgotten.
"My question is -- why couldn't the PATH be extended from Newark-Penn to the Airport? This would seem to be a nice cheap way to make a one-seat ride from Manhattan. Or, if that is implausible, an extension of the Monorail to Newark-Penn?
With all of the discussion of the Airtrain, this very useful example of how to do a "train to the plane" has been forgotten."
No, it hasn't been forgotten. PATH is undertaking a feasibility study of extending the subway from Newark to the airport transfer station. I wrote to the city of Newark and PATH to encourage it. Mayor Sharpe James wrote back and he supports the idea.
Want to help push it along? Write to Michael DePallo, Director, PATH, One PATH Plaza, Jersey City, NJ 07306.
That sounds like an excellent idea. A couple of problems though:
1) It would mean mixing PATH and NJT trains on the same track, right? Currently, they don't mix in revenue service. If they did this, PATH would have to permanently give up on the idea of getting out from FRA regulation. Of course, there wouldn't be much chance of that anyway.
2) Does PATH want people with "big bags" riding during the rush hour? Might they operate the extension non-rush hours only to prevent this? Actuallly, airport passengers would be riding in the opposite direction from the rush-hour commuters, so perhaps that wouldn't be a concern.
Um no. This is not the way to do a Train to the Plane. Have a look at just about any European Airport (Athens excepted). There is rail service from a major city terminus direct to the airport.
Even Heathrow, which for years was neglected this way, (the Piccadilly line is fun, but slow) now has 15-min express rides from Paddington, every 15 minutes.
Slightly off-topic: The major reason that many people don’t want to take public transport to an airport is the baggage. Have the airlines ever considered taking checked baggage at the city center, then putting the passengers on a train to the airport? When they finally get around to redoing NY Penn Station, couldn’t there be a special air train platform? Passengers check in their bags, and then get onto the train and are delivered in comfort to the airport. Meanwhile the bags go into sorted bins in special rail cars, which are unloaded at the airport and given directly to the airlines.
I know it will take a little thought to get the security issues worked out: a passenger’s bags don’t go on the plane unless the passenger is on the plane etc, but it would free up a lot of the hassle around the airports with people in cars dumping half the contents of their houses out onto the tarmac!
John.
Have the airlines ever considered taking checked baggage at the city center, then putting the passengers on a train to the airport?
They do this with Heathrow, right? It's a good idea, though the last time I was in London it hadn't been fully implemented yet, so I still had to take the Heathrow Express to the airport before being able to check in. It's not just a baggage check, it's a full ticket counter just like at the airport, so you're confirmed for the seat before boarding the train.
When they finally get around to redoing NY Penn Station, couldn’t there be a special air train platform? Passengers check in their bags, and then get onto the train and are delivered in comfort to the airport.
There is, in fact, space being set aside in the Farley Penn Station project for airline counters. I'm a little unsure about What exactly they'll get used for; it probably depends on whether the airlines are enthusiastic about using that space for actual check-ins, and if they can figure out a way to get luggage to the airport in the absence of any direct rail route to either EWR or JFK.
[Slightly off-topic: The major reason that many people don’t want to take public transport to an airport is the baggage. Have the airlines ever considered taking checked baggage at the city center, then putting the passengers on a train to the airport? When they finally get around to redoing NY Penn Station, couldn’t there be a special air train platform? Passengers check in their bags, and then get onto the train and are delivered in comfort to the airport. Meanwhile the bags go into sorted bins in special rail cars, which are unloaded at the airport and given directly to the airlines.]
Very much so. As part of the original Airtrain "extension of the airport" concept, the Farley station was built with airport check-in facilities. Unless things have changed, they haven't figured out how they're going to deal with the baggage yet. For that matter, the forces of reaction (g) are still fighting NY State over a direct ride to JFK, but I'm convinced they'll lose. I only wish they'd found a way to bring Airtrain *into* the terminals at JFK, and had put a bit more thought into the needs of travellers to Newark and LGA, not to mention inaugurating Airtrain with direct service to Manhattan before it gets a bad name as another "Train to the Plane."
One idea I like -- have check-in on the Airtrain itself. Just have someone wheel a computer terminal down the aisle. That would eliminate the check-in time and make the service even more attractive.
Otherwise, I agree 100% on the need for a dedicated service, and it's well understood in at least some of the corridors of power as well. Subway/PATH and Airtrain access will serve two different constituencies, with airport employees making use of the former while most travellers use the latter. Speed, reliability, simplicity, safety, comfort, and direct access from the City to the terminal are key to attracting travellers, most of whom aren't going to want to take their bags down subway steps or transfer to and from the LIRR or
here. My main concern is that they've already made the services too complicated and incompatible to push it over the margin and make it successful. That being said, it's both easy and desireable to provide subway/PATH access to the airports as well.
Bringing AirTrain into more of the terminals would have been good (it is part of Terminal 4) but an enclosed, climate-controlled walkway with moving sidewalk will be available for the other terminal stops, so it's not so bad.
It is better, though, if you can put the entrance right in people's faces as they go get their luggage. We'll see how this works out.
[Light rail carries a fraction of the passengers. It is also a fraction of the cost. And it helps support urbanism in the heartland. Closer to home, the other big plus: it builds a national constituency for transit, and with it an increasing federal commitment to it.]
I didn't know about that walkway. That's actually better than I thought.
Seems to me they should make it free for a while to get people using it, but only after they bring service into Penn.
"Slightly off-topic: The major reason that many people don’t want to take public transport to an airport is the baggage. Have the airlines ever considered taking checked baggage at the city center, then putting the passengers on a train to the airport? When they finally get around to redoing NY Penn Station, couldn’t there be a special air train platform? Passengers check in their bags, and then get onto the train and are delivered in comfort to the airport. Meanwhile the bags go into sorted bins in special rail cars, which are unloaded at the airport and given directly to the airlines."
That's not off-topic at all. In fact, the airlines at JFK are starting to think about it. Ticketing will be provided (current plans) at AirTrain's Jamaica terminal. Luggage is more difficult - but an interim step could be adding a baggage car to the train, then wheeling the luggage directly into the conveyor at the terminal. This means an airline employee or PA employee would have to be assigned to each such train.
At any rate, your point is well taken. The situation will continue to evolve - We may see luggage accepted at Penn or GCT by an intermodal train in future (capable of riding on both LIRR and AirTrain ROW).
"Um no. This is not the way to do a Train to the Plane. Have a look at just about any European Airport (Athens excepted). There is rail service from a major city terminus direct to the airport.
Even Heathrow, which for years was neglected this way, (the Piccadilly line is fun, but slow) now has 15-min express rides from Paddington, every 15 minutes."
Um, yes in this case, actually. You're assuming the city center is the only place people originate from to go to the airport. That can lead to a closed-minded approach. The PA originally wanted to do that, but at $5.6 billion it was too expensive. I think the current plan will work well, in that anybody from Long Island, Queens, Brooklyn or Manhattan with access to a subway station or commuter rail can use AirTrain. A major challenge is to increase the number of subway stations which are ADA-compliant (elevators, ramps), to ensure that the system is "baggage-friendly."
As for PATH, it would go from downtown Newark, where Newark subway and bus connections are present, to the Newark airport terminals' monorail. I am waiting to see what happens to the feasibility study.
I like Heathrow's system, and have used it. But I also like the progress we're making here.
[The PA originally wanted to do that, but at $5.6 billion it was too expensive.]
Isn't that the cost of a dedicated link? I agree that that doesn't make sense at all. But it wouldn't cost much to use existing ROW.
I think the current plan will work well, in that anybody from Long Island, Queens, Brooklyn or Manhattan with access to a subway station or commuter rail can use AirTrain.
Realistically, most people living on Long Island have cars, and they're not going to drive to an LIRR station to fight for a parking spot to take a train to another train when they could drive straight to the airport terminal without going through (most of) NYC. This is especially true for people with luggage and/or for times when more than 1 person is going to the airport (even if not everyone is boarding the flight).
It IS good that people from Queens and Brooklyn can use AirTrain, but an AirTrain that went from Howard Beach through the airport and all the way to Manhattan could still make the Jamaica stop and accomplish the same thing. This assumes, of course, that the train would be allowed to make an intermediate stop outside the airport despite using PFC money.
"Realistically, most people living on Long Island have cars, and they're not going to drive to an LIRR station to fight for a parking spot to take a train to another train when they could drive straight to the airport terminal without going through (most of) NYC. This is especially true for people with luggage and/or for times when more than 1 person is going to the airport (even if not everyone is boarding the flight)."
If that were true, the LIRR would have no business going into Manhattan either. Granted, the diesel trains come from long distances. But going to Kennedy by car is no picnic these days. A lot of people in MU territory will go for this. Effective marketing by the PA will help a lot.
"It IS good that people from Queens and Brooklyn can use AirTrain, but an AirTrain that went from Howard Beach through the airport and all the way to Manhattan could still make the Jamaica stop and accomplish the same thing. This assumes, of course, that the train would be allowed to make an intermediate stop outside the airport despite using PFC money."
That may happen, but consider another aspect: When you take the LIRR to AirTrain from Manhattan, Brooklyn or Long Island, you can take any train on any branch (except Port Washington) and get to your gate. At Penn Station that means a train every few minutes; out on LI it means any train stopping at Jamaica (How many don't?). If you ran AirTrain into Penn or GCT, you'd need a lot more rolling stock and access to the tunnels to guarantee good service. The PA is still thinking about doing that, but what we have starting in 2003 is a pretty good deal.
"This assumes, of course, that the train would be allowed to make an intermediate stop outside the airport despite using PFC money."
The answer to that is probably yes it can. I say probably because the PA's counsel thought that could pass muster with the more grand scheme, though not carried out. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals upheld present funding, which helps. I have not read the Second Circuits verbatim decision. If it is not inclusive of other situations, then, if sometime in the future, a station were (hypothetically) proposed for the Van Wyck at Linden Blvd. or Rockaway Blvd. then that issue might be revisited by the NIMBYs' attorney and the Second Circuit would have to rule again.
Realistically, most people living on Long Island have cars, and they're not going to drive to an LIRR station to fight for a parking spot to take a train to another train when they could drive straight to the airport terminal without going through (most of) NYC. This is especially true for people with luggage and/or for times when more than 1 person is going to the airport (even if not everyone is boarding the flight).
If that were true, the LIRR would have no business going into Manhattan either. Granted, the diesel trains come from long distances. But going to Kennedy by car is no picnic these days. A lot of people in MU territory will go for this. Effective marketing by the PA will help a lot.
Driving to Kennedy Airport from most points in Nassau and Suffolk isn't all that bad, except during morning rush hour (when you'll never find a parking spot at a LIRR station anyway). Driving is simply more convenient than Airtrain will be.
"Driving to Kennedy Airport from most points in Nassau and Suffolk isn't all that bad, except during morning rush hour (when you'll never find a parking spot at a LIRR station anyway). Driving is simply more convenient than Airtrain will be."
Only time will tell for sure.
Only time will tell. LI commuters have no AirTrain option now. When they do, wait a couple of months, and then let's see how driving and AirTrain compare.
I don't believe this is the case for LHR, but GAT has check in and baggage collection in Victoria Station in Westminster London, followed by a non-stop express to Gatwick (which is necessary, since GAT is half-way to Normandy from central London). It's expensive, as are all things in London, but it's very convenient and fast.
Does anybody know if NJT's new trains will be modified to handle lots of baggage? Certainly the existing equipment is totally unable to handle the task. If the equipment doesn't arrive on time, than ah pity the foo' who tries to use Airport station in rush hour.
Plus, I thought I saw signs that the Penn Station (NY) renovations for the NJT end wouldn't be finished until 2002. With all the work going on, it would be damn close to impossible for anyone with bags to make it to the train in the first place.
I really, really want this thing to work. I'm just really, really afraid that it hasn't been completely thought through.
NY Penn is ADA Compliant. Tracks 1-12 are exclusive use of NJT and Amtrak, Tracks 17-21 are exclusive LIRR and tracks 13-16 are shared by the three.
NY Penn has two projects underway at this time
1- New floors and walls on the lower (Exit) level which should be finished later this year.
2- NJT is buuilding more exits from tracks 1-12 including additional stairs, elevators and escalators and a separate NJT waiting area near the corner of 31 or 32 and 7th. This project will be done(supposedly)next year.
Elsewhere in this thread there was talk of PATH's using the AMtrak R.O.W.- There are three added problems with this:
1- PATH does not have cab signals
2- PATH can not run at 80mph
3- I do not think PATH has to comply with NORAC rules. These are the rules for the railroads in the Northeast Corridor.
If PATH were to be extended it would have to be separate trackage which leads to a question of where to put those tracks-
We have South Street(the closed NECL station) qwhich is where the PATh tracks end and the structure narrows before the Raritan Line turns off at Aldene Junction (Hunter Tower). Where would you put the two tracks for PATH
The good news is that there is a (really low profile) study to extend PATH to EWR. The bad news is that it would apparently only go as far as the NEC station, requiring a monorail transfer. PATH should go on to the terminals. I am concerned that the monorail won't hack it. The Newark-Elizabeth Rail Line will apparently plug somewhere into the monrail as well. That would total three robust transit lines (commuter rail, heavy rail and light rail) plugging into a single wobbly amusement park-type line.
Anyway, the study is under the radar because of politics. The last known public sighting of this idea was last May, when Gov. Whitman floated a PATH extension as a balance to all the PA money being spent on Farley. Later in the year, they broke the logjam without the PATH extension.
I have proposed building AirTrain II to LGA, and pairing it with this project for bistate equity. The PA could do something people want -- airport access -- instead of twinning the Goethals and some of their other ideas. That would also free up $1b of MTA money that is planned to go into extending the Astoria line to LGA for East Side Access or 2nd Ave. instead.
Moreover, the air traveller would then be able to simply arrive at Penn Station, and take a connecting train to all three major airports: LIRR to Jamaica for AirTrain I to JFK; LIRR to Woodside for AirTrain II to LGA; NJT to Newark Airport for EWR. Not European, but MUCH better than the present.
By the way, I don't think the air terminal will end up in Farley, even though they talk about it and show it in their visuals. As I recall, Farley sits above the long center tracks Amtrak uses. The tracks to either side don't extend that far. Farley doesn't sit above most of the NJT station tracks on the south end, and it doesn't sit above many of the LIRR tracks on the north end. That would significantly limit the number of trains air travellers could use to get to EWR or JFK (or LGA), short of a mad dash to run east back to the old part of the station. The word would get out to go to the old Penn Station and wait there. So I am guessing the current Amtrak area at NYP will be converted to airport access uses. Better subway access anyway. And when Madison Square Garden leaves in a few years, something more appropriate could be built above this old station area.
You have some interesting ideas, but you have to remember that political interests must be served as well.
"That would total three robust transit lines (commuter rail, heavy rail and light rail) plugging into a single wobbly amusement park-type line."
That's a very silly thing to post. Atlanta has a similar amusement park ride (the exact kind of traction used is beside the point) and it works well. So does Tampa, for Land-Side/Air-Side transfer, though there's no mass transit line in Tampa.
I don't know how much it would cost to put PATH into the terminals, or if PATH's trains can negotiate them well. The IRT would have the same problem at LGA, but there the MTA would probably only serve the Main Terminal anyway.
But at Newark you have an existing line serving all terminals, and which allows subway/commuter rail service to be constructed without bothering property owners, NIMBYs and the like for new right-of-ways. That's an important advantage, probably critical to assuring that something gets built (for PATH, anyway).
[That's a very silly thing to post. Atlanta has a similar amusement park ride (the exact kind of traction used is beside the point) and it works well. So does Tampa, for Land-Side/Air-Side transfer, though there's no mass transit line in Tampa.]
Atlanta and Tampa are much more robust. Atlanta is also enclosed, and Tampa is in better weather. Simple question: have either of these systems crashed lately? The Newark monorail is smaller, and it was just shut down for several months. There was significant opposition to this type of system when the PA built it, for good reason. I'm speaking as a regular EWR user. We'll see later in the year. My guess is that people will quickly want something bigger and more reliable. They could walk between terminals during the latest monorail crash (the shuttle buses often got caught in gridlock). Walking from the NEC is not a pleasant option.
[I don't know how much it would cost to put PATH into the terminals, or if PATH's trains can negotiate them well. The IRT would have the same problem at LGA, but there the MTA would probably only serve the Main Terminal anyway.]
It could stop at each terminal landside, along the roadway. Or even have an O'Hare central station -- inferior, but better than being in something that doesn't move, like the monorail does regularly. At LGA, I know MTA wants to serve ALL the terminals, including Marine. That is why they prefer extending the Astoria line, because it can come in from the northwest and access the Delta shuttle before moving to the other main terminals.
[But at Newark you have an existing line serving all terminals, and which allows subway/commuter rail service to be constructed without bothering property owners, NIMBYs and the like for new right-of-ways. That's an important advantage, probably critical to assuring that something gets built (for PATH, anyway).]
An aerial line into Newark would raise about as much opposition as the aerial monorail has. And the proposed NERL extension has. I don't see a major problem here. Not many private owners between the NEC and EWR; most of the ROW is owned by the PA or is public roadway.
Again, we'll see later in the year when the monorail gets the crush. It will either handle it, or people will start crying out for something more robust.
[The IRT would have the same problem at LGA, but there the MTA would probably only serve the Main Terminal anyway.]
Someone said here once that the PA had blocked IRT access to the terminals. My guess is they're afraid the system will be extended and serve as a stopping point for the Great Unwashed. Personally, I'd like to see systems at all three airports that accept both trains and subways -- that would provide maximum versatility to adjust service to meet demand at no extra cost. It's too late for Newark, but it could still be done at LGA. Ultimately I think we need both kinds of service -- subway access for employees and Airtrain access for travellers with bags. But a free transfer to the subway would be just as effective, and possibly more efficient from the commuter's perspective, because not all subways or PATH trains would go to the airport due to capacity concerns.
"Someone said here once that the PA had blocked IRT access to the terminals. My guess is they're afraid the system will be extended and serve as a stopping point for the Great Unwashed."
That is a load of sliced baloney. Whoever said that heard something third hand, out of context, and mixed in a lot of imagination. It's not productive to spread around nonsense like that.
There are technical, geographic, financial, political issues to be settled, it's true. But if the MTA goes ahead with the proposed N extension to LGA, or an alternate plan like the ones suggested here, the PA will not obstruct it. They will expect MTA to abide by certain conditions related to the safe operation of the airport and terminals. But the only people in the way will be the NIMBYs (as usual) and if the PA likes the plan enough they may contribute money to it, address the sincere, legitimate concerns of residents and either buy off or squash the remaining NIMBYs.
The PA is spending $4.5 billion on new parking garages and access roads at its airports. They stand to make a pretty penny from all the cars parked there. Why would they want to make it any easier for anyone to get there by rail?
If they do offer PATH service to NWK, it will probably cost an extra $10 or $20 fare, collected at NWK.
"The PA is spending $4.5 billion on new parking garages and access roads at its airports. They stand to make a pretty penny from all the cars parked there. Why would they want to make it any easier for anyone to get there by rail?"
Step back and look at the big picture. The garages are great for fees but there is a limit to how many cars can use the access roads to get in. So the rail line helps increase total reception capacity at the airport. And with more people using rail, the roadways and parking slots will be available to more of the affluent limo and taxi crowd, improving customer service to them.
"If they do offer PATH service to NWK, it will probably cost an extra $10 or $20 fare, collected at NWK."
It's completely premature to assume anything. The results of the feasibility study will give us something to talk about.
Don’t they make far more on landing fees to make investment in public transport connections worthwhile?
"Don’t they make far more on landing fees to make investment in public transport connections worthwhile?"
You're connecting two concepts that have no relation to each other.
The second segment of LIRR History in the April Third Rail.
This section has more of interest to Brooklynites and honorary Brooklynites, with the Manhattan Beach and Culver Lines mentioned. Also a rather large map (three segments each about 150K) shows a detailed picture of LI, the RR and its branches in 1882.
If you look to the west, in Brooklyn, the lines look a lot like a hammer and sickle.
If you look to the west, in Brooklyn, the lines look a lot like a hammer and sickle
And here I thought it was the IND that had the socialist roots.
Wow, that story would have been impossible for me to understand without the map, especially since I'm not even familiar with LI today, never mind 130 years ago.
A very interesting site and some really cool links. I looked at the Grade Crossing Upgrade info, including the maps and photos. Comparing these with the Brooklyn Survey map of 1888 on this site I note the following:
On the Brooklyn Survey map, the Bay Ridge Line branches to the Manhattan Beach Line from both the east and west, while only from the east on the 1918 map. What happened to the other branch?
There are branches from the Bay Ridge Line to the PP&CI (Culver) line from both the east and west at Parkville Junction on the 1918 map; when I lived in that neighborhood, there was only a branch from the west. What happened to the other branch? I can tell you that there was no sidewalk on the north side of Elmwood Av between McDonald and about the point where the turnout is shown the whole time I lived there, and no houses either.
PIG!
PIG!
HUH?
Perhaps it's an acronym for "pursue intellectual goals"?
It's an acronym for "post ignorant garbage"?
But why do you feel that you need to respond to a 3-letter post if you think it's beneath you?
I don't understand your question. I find the earth beneath me.
Pigs roll around on the earth.
I walk on the earth; we must be related.
What PIG?
"PIG! "
Wait a minute ! Is there any invisible text after PIG ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No. At least View Source doesn’ show any. Maybe Pork has returned to his origins :-)
Funny how a post simply with the word PIG would get so many responses.
PIG!
NUT!
NUT BRAND!!
oink !!
Aye!
Just after I posted this on SubTalk originally, the database crashed before I could get much of any feedback. I then re-posted it on my Urban Transit Forum site, but as of right now a whopping eight people even looked at it. I don't want to see all my writing going to waste, so here it is again for a third (and hopefully final) time for your viewing pleasure.
Greetings, all... As promised, here's a full report of my trip to London (topics are in no particular order). My apologies in advance if I get some of the station names wrong, as I don't have a tube map handy as I write this so everyting is 100% from memory.
First Impressions
My plane was three hours late leaving O'Hare, but we finally managed to make it into Heathrow early Friday afternoon. After going through immigration and customs (a new experience for me, since this was my first trip overseas), I made my way to the Tube stop at Terminal 4, got myself a photo ID and a weekly Travelcard for zones 1-2, and bought an extension to get me from the terminal (zone 6) to my hotel near Victoria Station. The Piccadilly Line train showed up after a short wait, I made the transfer to the District Line at Hammersmith which got me to Victoria. The ride was a bit long, but offered some nice scenery along the way of some of London's closer-in suburbs. London's suburbs that I saw are certainly much more quaint-looking than the plastic wastelands that surround most American cities. The tube trains themselves seemed very small (not for the claustrophobic), but were amazingly comfortable.
I finally found my hotel, a small bed-and-breakfast on Warwick Way about a 15-minute walk from the Victoria tube station. The place was a bit of a dive, but at least it served its purpose of giving me a place to crash and a hot shower at an affordable price. To its credit, the guy at the desk was very courteous and helpful.
I spent most of the rest of the day wandering around the immediate neighborhood and exploring as much as possible. I eventually found my way past Buckingham Palace and then over to Piccadilly Circus and Leicester Square, the epicenter of London's tourism and nightlife activities. I could easily spend a year just exploring the vast maze of side streets that surround that area. I also hopped onto the tube and made it out to the Jubilee Line extension and Docklands Light Rail. I've already talked considerably about the Jubilee Line extension here (the stations are simply incredible), and the DLR was nice, but had the flavor of an airport people-mover system.
Clubbing and Nightlife
Saturday night I made it over to The End, one of the more popular clubs in London that specializes in techno and house music. Very impressive. There's another club next door and above The End called AKA, with a stairway connecting the two. The night I went they had both clubs opened up so that you pay one cover charge for both places. Nothing radically different about them compared to clubs in Chicago, except that the music is more ecclectic and that they body-search you on the way in. Not surprising, since crowded nightclubs tend to be popular targets for terrorist bombings. AKA was playing house music similar to what you'd find in most clubs here in Chicago, while the lounge area of The End was playing sort of a slow, hard-hitting variety of hip-hop. The main dance floor in The End was playing a very cool mix of house/trance/techno. I stayed for a couple hours before heading up to Fabric in the Smithfield Market area, but when I got there I was confronted with a line that literally stretched around the block. I said hell with it and headed back to my hotel.
On other nights I made it to Sound and Bar Rumba in the Leicester Square area. Sound was a bit of a tourist trap, but Bar Rumba was very cool. One night I went they had a DJ spinning some funky acid jazz, and another night it was more drum & bass stuff. I never did make it to Fabric (nor Home, Notting Hill Arts Club, or Ministry of Sound, nor any number of other places I was hoping to hit), so I guess I'll have to get to them on my next trip over. I did, however, pick up a very cool Ministry of Sound trance compilation CD at HMV, and I've got MOS's website address so that I can order more CD's in the same series. (Just last night I noticed that the Virgin Megastore here in Chicago has a few of these CD's, and that they're apparently quite popular, so hopefully some club owner here in Chicago will finally come to his senses and have at least one night dedicated to trance music. Chicago-style house music is nice, but that's about all you hear around here.)
God and Country
Sunday morning I went to the 11:00 AM worship service at Westminster Abbey, and the building is incredible. However, something about it left me feeling somewhat unfulfilled, and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it was because almost everybody else at the service seemed to be a tourist just like me, so I didn't feel the sense of community that I'm used to in a church.
That evening I headed over to St. Columba's in the Knightsbridge area not too far from Harrod's, which is the church where an associate pastor and close friend at my home church in Chicago was on staff before he came here. St. Columba's is part of the Church of Scotland, which is the father of the Presbyterian church here in the US, my own denomination. The sense of community I felt was missing from Westminster Abbey was very much evident at St. Columba's, and I was welcomed with open arms by a very hospitable congregation.
Later on in the week I finally made my way over to St. Paul's Cathedral, and that place is utterly staggering. I can't think of any other piece of architecture that literally brought tears to my eyes. There are very few places where I have ever felt the presence of God so profoundly. The chapel behind the high altar, dedicated to the American dead of World War II from the people of Great Britain, was especially moving.
Other architectural highlights included the new Great Court at the British Museum designed by Norman Foster and the Lloyd's of London building designed by Richard Rogers, among other projects scattered throughout the city. It was difficult to walk a single block without stumbling upon some architectural materpiece or another, either modern or historic.
Family Roots
Monday I got on a train at Liverpool Street Station, destination: Burnham-on-Crouch, a tiny fishing and yachting village about 1-1/2 hours east of London by rail. Burnham-on-Crouch is where my grandfather was born and raised, and a cousin of my father's still lives there. I walked around the town a bit, found my grandfather's childhood home at 5 Albert Road, and grabbed a bite of lunch in a quaint pub. I then called up my second-cousin there in the offhand chance that she would be home, and it turned out the pay phone I used was only about 50 feet away from the houseboat she and her husband live on. She just happened to have taken that day off from work, so she invited me over and we had some tea while we talked for about an hour or so. She mentioned that my grandfather always loved London with a passion, and took almost every opportunity to ride the train into the city and explore every square inch of it.
His fascination with cities continued well past World War II when he had met met his future wife at a Woolworth's lunch counter in Manhattan, gotten married to her at Marble Collegiate Church, and settled down in Cincinnati. Looking back, I remember him taking me on long walks around downtown Cincinnati, and I guess it's pretty safe to say I've inherited his passion for urban exploration which led me back to London, as well as to seek out a career in architecture.
Exploring my family roots in Burnham-on-Crouch was made even more poignant by the fact that my father is currently in a hospital bed in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, being pumped full of toxic chemicals and being prepared for a bone marrow transplant in the hopes that they can kill off the tumors pressing against his spinal cord. The docs think they have a pretty good chance of beating this thing, but who the hell knows for sure.
The train ride itself was very scenic, except that on the way out the heat wasn't working in my coach, leaving me to freeze to death. I also noticed that the trains are built like tin cans compared to our own Sherman tanks. I suspect a sensible railcar design probably lies somewhere between the two extremes.
The only visible sign of the foot-and-mouth epidemic, aside from screaming newspaper headlines (I think the British use the tabloids as an outlet to counter their traditional stiff-upper-lip subtlety), was a large plot of freshly-turned earth not far from the railroad tracks on the way to Burnham, a column of black smoke rising from a hillside in the distance, and a few large yellow signs along nearby highways relating to travel restrictions in rural areas. Also, I observed a group of official-looking people in white jumpsuits and face masks wandering around on a hillside. Bad time to have unprotected sex with a sheep, I guess.
Foster and Partners
On my last full day in London, I finally got over to Lord Norman Foster's office for an extensive tour and informational interview. VERY impressive! The office organization is every bit as high-tech and precise as the architecture they produce, with a very democratic corporate structure. There are no offices anywhere in the studio; senior partners and even Norman Foster himself share a single large studio along with rank-and-file employees and support staff, and everybody there has the exact same workstation. Dress code is very casual, with some people in blue jeans and t-shirts and others in business suits. The 500-person office even has its own cafe and parking attendants. The place had the feel of a Silicon Valley dot-com, except that they're actually producing real products and making real profits.
At the end of the tour, I was able to sit down in the cafe with my tour guide, an architect who happens to be working on a 53-story headquarters building in Chicago for the Hyatt Hotel Corporation and Priztker Family Foundation, to be built not two blocks from my office in the Sears Tower. We talked a bit about Chicago's architectural traditions and current construction climate, and we saw eye-to-eye on almost every issue (such a refreshing change from the narrow-minded imbeciles I work for now).
The highlight of the tour: He looked at my portfolio in detail, and strongly reccommended that I send a copy of it along with my resume to Norman Foster personally; apparently their typical practice for an overseas project is to open a small field office with 6-8 architects to work on that particular project and coordinate with local consulatants and contractors, and he talked like they'll probably do likewise for the Chicago project. If so, then I got the impression that I might be person they'd like to have on board for that project. I plan on getting that stuff sent out early next week, so wish me luck!!
Mind the Gap
Finally, the Tube. I've already talked about it a bit here, so I won't bore you by repeating the same observations over again. The Jubilee Line extension stations are simply incredible; my favorites were Canary Wharf (naturally), Southwark, and North Greenwhich. I didn't keep a log of which particular routes and stations I used, but at one time or another I probably used just about every major station within the area bounded by the Circle Line, and quite a few beyond the Circle. A few more random observations:
Many of the Circle Line stations are very cool, especially the older ones with the brick vaults (Baker Street, Paddington) and glass shed roofs.
Overall, the system actually seems incredibly modern considering how old it is. With the large vaulted ceilings and long escalators, some parts almost feel like an precursor to the Washington Metro.
Elephant and Castle: I simply couldn't pass up a station with a name like that. Anybody have any clue as to the name's origins? The station itself is a bit old and decrepid, with elevators as the only means of reaching street level.
Speaking of elevators, the station at Hampstead on the Northern Line is incredibly deep. Not surprisingly, elevators are the only way to reach the surface, and it felt like I was riding the express elevators here in the Sears Tower. The neighborhood in which you emerge, located on a surprisingly steep hillside, is also very cool.
Headways are excellent, and the trains -- as small as they are -- are very modern and comfortable.
Tube staff, signage, and electronic message boards are very helpful and make the system very easy to navigate for even a dumb American tourist such as myself.
Some of the larger stations, particularly at Green Park and Bank, make you feel like a rat in a maze as you wander around long and complex passages to transfer from one line to another. It's really pretty incredible how complex these stations are in some places.
If anybody else has any questions or other observations, feel free to speak up since I've no doubt left out more than a few details.
Near-Disaster
Thursday morning, after I had exhausted my time in London and literally almost every dime of my money, I hauled my luggage back onto the tube at Victoria, bound for Heathrow.
About three stops away from Heathrow, I gasped in horror when I realized that since my weekly travelcard was only for fare zones 1-2, I had not bought an extension for the airport in zone 6. Even worse, I didn't have the cash in my pocket nor in my bank account to pay for an extension, much less the stiff penalty fare. I was almost in full-panic mode by the time I got off the train at Terminal 4, as disturbing images of being locked up in a British gulag or not being able to ever leave the tube danced in my head, as my transatlantic flight was preparing to board.
Luckily, the lady at the turnstiles at Terminal 4 was sympathetic to my sob story, and was kind enough to let me exit the station without calling the cops on me. Good karma to you, anonymous Tube employee.
In Conclusion...
I'm impressed that I got to see as much as I did of London, but there's still many things I didn't see. I could easily spend several years there just exploring the city. As I said before, London is one of a small handful of great cities on this planet that I think everybody should visit at least once. As for myself, I'm looking forward to many happy returns.
I've got about 50 photos that need to be developed, some of which include transit content. I'll be sure to scan those and send them to Dave for posting on nycsubway.org as soon as possible.
Cheers,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Still interesting the 2nd (for me) time! And with BA's fares this month, I might have to go back very soon :) How can anyone find the city that invented the subway uninteresting?
Still a BA man huh?
Once you take Virgin, you'll think that BA has the ambience of a freight boxcar.
Then again this is SubTalk so you may like that kinda thing.
Whoever has the cheaper fares at the moment. I've had sh*tty experiences with BA in the past, but on my budget, it still boils down to price alone. I was actually pissed when Pakistan International Airways stopped service between NY and Ist, because they were damn cheap (although I can assume why).
Does Virgin Atlantic ban screaming infants, obnoxious loud-mouthed tourists, and hyperactive preschoolers from all flights?
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>Does Virgin Atlantic ban screaming infants, obnoxious loud-mouthed tourists, and hyperactive preschoolers from all flights?<<<
No, but that's what the overhead compartments are there for.
Sounds like your flight wasn't too peachy.
Shouldn't every airline? Luckily mine was a redeye from Orlando to London, so I was the only one awake. Turkish Airlines (in case anyone ever needs to go where they fly, btw) has special childrens' sections, a blessing from Allah! And they give you a full subway map of Istanbul, as well as free toothbrushes, which I still have as a souvenir.
Virgin is the same when it comes to freebies. They give you when you board a gift pack that contains (what I can remember) a toothbrush & toothpaste, lip balm, ear plugs, eye hood, pen & pencil, writing paper and a few other things that I can't remember right now.
That and every seat has a personal TV set & hand held remote with 10 different movies, eight different program channels and ten different music channels. It also has a personal Super Nintendo system with ten different games. The best part is the "SkyMap" which shows you on a map exactly where you are, how fast the plane is going, what the exterior temperature and wind velocity is (the temp is usually around -68 degrees), how many miles to the destination as well as the time remaining in the journey.
And it costs the same on Virgin than it does on BA! If I can't get to London on Virgin, well then I can't get to London.
Actually, both the British Airways flights I took offered pretty much the exact same things. I guess they took a few clues from their new competition in order to remain competitive.
Annoying passengers aside, I was actually fairly impressed with the level of service I got on BA, and the food was even half-decent. (Imagine that!) I'm a bit curious if other transatlantic airlines (United, American) offer similar amenities, or if they treat you like livestock as if you were flying to Indianapolis.
-- David
Chicago, IL
BA must've been getting killed by Virgin, that's why they changed. Good to know that BA offers the TV service as well.
I'm a bit curious if other transatlantic airlines (United, American) offer similar amenities
I haven't been on a Delta transatlantic flight, but going to Brazil, they hook up the passengers. In coach, you have a choice of what entrees you want. They also have a diverse variety of drinks. In both classes of service, they also have that "SkyMap" thing, proabably the exact same system.
The way to really fly on international on Delta is in BusinessElite class. The leg room you get is outragous, you have to unbuckle your seat belt to even think about gabbing something out of the seat pocket in front of you. THe seats recline all the way back, have leg supports, lumbar support and headrests that you can shape around your head. Everyone gets their own 8 inch TV with like 5-6 channels and there's like 8 choices of movies (4 movie channels with 2 "cycles") for the duration of the flight. The amount of food they give is almost too much. You get an appitizer, salad, entree, and dessert. They bring each thing out to you seperately. It's really high class, especially for my poor, get-free-flghts ass.
Are the measurements given in Metric or in Stupid?
>>>Are the measurements given in Metric or in Stupid?<<<
That's a good one. Metric mostly.
Question: Is the USA the last country to not go metric?
The UK in the past couple of years has gone metric, but they retained miles & MPH as opposed to kilometers and KmH.
Only the United States, Myanmar and Liberia. How absolutely horrible that we have to be associated with such horrid places.
Ya got that right Pork.
I have to say that there's one good thing about the Stupid system: It's a lot more fun to figure out how many rods in a furlong (40), drams in a hogshead (64,512) or grains in a stone (98,000) than it is to figure out how many yoctometers there are in a yottameter (One Quintodecillion or 1048).
Dramamines in a yotta?...........quinto grains in............WHAT DA HELL IZ YOU SMOKIN?
???????
Well I've got to admit, whatever school that you're in, they're doing a good job.
Cause most of that stuff that you were talking about I had never heard of before, other than stones. I do know that one stone=14 pounds.
I thought we already discussed how I feel about school. And I certainly didn't learn any of that in a youthful curiosity stifling center school.
I thought we already discussed how I feel about school. And I certainly didn't learn any of that in a youthful curiosity stifling center school.
Gotcha.
yocto is a prefix (symbol "y") for 10-24 and yotta is 1024 (symbol "Y"). My favorite measurement in the Stupid system is the "slug," which measures mass.
I have no problems with BA.. (Two unearned upgrades out of Heathrow in a row will do that to you...)
Yup, it sure will. Lol.
As an ex-Londoner, ex-patriot, some information and comments:
1: Elephant & Castle = Infanta of Castile. Butchered Spanish, though there is now a pub of the same name there, with a sign that has the requisite elephant and styled castle.
2.Churches: St Paul’s I find much more interesting than Westminster Abbey: from the Crypt (wooden model as Wren first envisaged it) to climbing to the top of the dome (great views), there is great history everywhere you look. If you get a chance next time, though, take a look at some of the other city churches. Wren designed a number of them and there are still most of them standing, the bombing in WW2 notwithstanding. Also St Peter ad Vincula, the chapel in the Tower of London is worth a look. (Yet more history…)
3. Law. You missed the Inns of Court. One of the peculiarities of the British Legal system is a distinction between solicitors (who do contract, divorce, etc) and barristers (who can represent you in court). Every barrister must belong to one of the Inns of Court, which are clustered around Temple Bar, the original entrance to the City. If you can get a look around, the dining halls in the Middle and Inner Temple are fascinating to look at.
4. Tower of London. Ignore the jewels, unless you go in November when the crowds are absent. (I used to work about 1/2 mile from the tower, and would walk around the outside at lunchtime, watching the Japanese tourists take pictures of each other, with both of them having cameras obsucuring their faces–go figure). The White Tower has a military museum, which includes King Henry VIII’s suit of armor (take a look at the codpiece on this one). Get a tour from the Yeoman Warders (Beefeaters, though probably no more with Mad Cow Disease). Also, if you can plan ahead, write to the Lieutenant (pronounced LEFTenant) Governor, and request (free) tickets to the Ceremony of the Keys, which is the official locking-up of the Tower at night. (Yet more history…)
5. The Underground: London’s systems came together very early on, but the system is old and running over capacity. Also the geology is different: London is alluvial clay, whereas NY is rock. This means that the NatWest Tower, which was floated on a concrete raft was actually more difficult to build than the WTC.
The consequence for the tubes was a lot more tunnelling than cut-and-cover surface work, the big exceptions being the Circle/District/Metropolitan lines, which originally ran with steam trains, hence the gaps in the Circle line at regular intervals. Baker Street station is way cool, especially since they cleaned the brickwork (it used to be black) and installed the orange lighting.
Some of the stations, like Green Park, where they have the Victoria, Piccadilly and Jubilee lines glommed together have a rat’s nest of underground corridors to walk along. The Science Museum has displays of some of the stations so you can see what they had to do to build the additional lines in.
Bank is just impossible. It has the Central Line station, the Northern Line station, and a link to the Circle/District line stations. They used to show this as a zig-zag line on the maps, which should have been a warning as to the length. Now that they have put the City terminus of the DLR in there, I have no idea how complicated this must be!
Holborn is a station to visit. You get a great impression of the depth, when you ride down one long escalator (did you notice they go about 25% faster than the NY escalators?) to get to the Circle line, then down another similar one to get to the Piccadilly line? Also there, you can squint to see the disused platform for the Aldwych shuttle, which I always hoped would be incorporated into something bigger. (I used to be a student at King’s College, which sort of surrounds the old Aldwych station–the Classics Department is right on top!–so I always hoped that they would extend it to Waterloo and make it worthwhile).
And so on.
Just to finish, it wouldn’t be fair to stop without mentioning the LT museum in Covent Garden, well worth an afternoon (as is also St James’ church, just across the Piazza: it’s the one that they huddle under in the first scene of My Fair Lady.) (Yet more history…)
John.
Having made this trip more times than I care to recall, some thoughts:
(and as always, things change, YMMV…)
1). BA seat pitch is slightly better than Virgin.
2). Last time I travelled, BA had big screens with only one visual entertainment choice. But the movies were better (and it was Christmas and they had some old BBC Christmas specials and I was nostalgic, so I’m probably biased here). Virgin has individual screens, but they are microscopic (5" diagonal). If they have upgraded them to the 8" diagonal standard, which appears to be uniform in Business and First Class, then they are probably just as viewable as the big screens at the front of the compartment.
3). BA food was a little better.
4). If you want the best bargain, try Priceline. There is so much extra capacity over the Atlantic, it really works here, especially from the NY area. I once got to London and back for $250 round trip at Christmas, with an almost-empty flight on Air Canada (one change in Toronto). If you want the cheapest, try them! For maximum flexibility, include all the NY airports (=JFK+EWR in practicality) and both LN airports (Heathrow+Gatwick).
5). Heathrow and Gatwick are about the same in terms of time, if you want to take the Piccadilly or the Gatwick train from Victoria. If you want speed from Heathrow, take the train to Paddington (and see how a “Train to the Plane” really ought to be done!
6). Heathrow Terminal 4 has great shopping. There is a Harrods boutique in the Duty Free, so you can bring the stuff back in the signature Green shopping bags!
7). Travel, enjoy! (I’m going Virgin next week on a ticket that cost me $300, Kennedy to Heathrow).
John.
The 3 BA planes I've been on since 4/2000 (2 777's and a 747-400) have been upgraded to 4 class (First, Business, Econ+, Econ) and have seat back video. I think by now all the NY market planes have been upgraded.
Where is the Circus train? Not sighted a Sunnyside...
Someone on another board said that the passenger and concession cars are parked at the LIRR Shea Stadium station.
Yes, I took the Port Washington train yesterday and the circus train is at the Shea Stadium 'yard'. It was broken into three pieces and put on different tracks in the yard. Some of the intermodal flatcars were empty because their containers were taken via truck to Madison Square Garden. I have some photos of it there and on the Garden city secondary being hauled away. I will put them up on www.trainweb.org/nyrail sometime today or tomorrow.
-Dan
YES .... BUT the whole train isn't there. Saturday I saw that some of it came back to Uniondale on the Central Branch (where it was when the circus was in this part of town). I would hazzard a guess that some of the flats may be in NJ, as we heard the elephant walk was thru the Lincoln tunnel.
Mr t__:^)
The circus still travels by train??? I saw Ringling Bros. in the Ocean Center in Daytona Beach about, oh, 15 years ago, but I had no idea if they got there by train, especially since Daytona has no rail service nearby. Do they use freight lines as well? I'm not sure if a circus would be freight or passenger rail, if one had to categorize. Is the train owned by the circus and run over private freight railways' lines? I didn't know they would rent their lines to a private train these days.
Ringling Bros has two complete circuses (circii?), each with a complete train. They run over whatever railroad will take them to their destinations. The red train is doing NY (Meadowlands, Nasau Coliseum, MSG), then going to Philly. The blue train did (or is doing) Baltimore and Washington in the same time frame as the red train doing NY-Philly.
Mr. Robert Bonadonna of LI submitted to me his photos of the circus train in Garden City. I have posted them on a new page at www.trainweb.org/nyrail/lirr/rbbx/rbbx.html. Please correct me if any information I posted is incorrect. Y'all gettin' a sneak peek at a not-yet-public page of my site!
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
I have seen some circus train cars on one of the seldom used tracks at the Shea Stadium station.
Saw it at Shea Stadium on the LIRR Saturday.
Just to share the joy... last week, I actually joined the select few who saw it in reality. Did it the "official" way -- i.e., by asking the conductor to let me in for the loop ride (as opposed to hiding). The guy just waved me in without any question or comment. So, legal or not, it is certainly doable!
The thing definitely looks better (in terms of cleanliness) that 80% of the stations in use (well, no surprise here). Overall, quite an impression. One question for the experts. Short of the platform exit, perhaps 1/3 into the platform length, there is a skylight (daylight penetrating into the station is clearly seen). Where exactly in the City Hall Park is the corresponding grate, or whatever that is?
There are three clusters of round glass bricks in City Hall Park, arranged in a semicircle, which follow the station contour. The station itself begins directly in front of City Hall.
Saw it several days ago... I ride the Q every day, more than accustomed to its white-on-orange sign -- so it was quite a surprise to see a black-on-yellow one, like the N and R. I wonder, is it a relic of the old days when the Q ran on the Broadway line? Or something else?
Just wait until July 2001 and you will see a lot of yellow Q's as well as a diamond yellow Q. The roll sign contains these letters.
The color denotes the line (in manhattan) the line is running on. Diamond denotes that is running something special or other than normal. Diamond 6's run express in the bronx for example.
So you think this was not a remnant from the past but a provision for the future?
It's both! The Q ran on Broadway until the Manhattan Bridge south-side closure, circa 1984. It has been on 6 Ave since then, but will return to Broadway (and yellow bullets) this summer.
I think the (Q) moved over to Sixth Ave ("temporarily") in 1988, together with the (B)(D) on the same day the Arhcer Ave extension openned.
:-) Andrew
Please don't put Hippos on the diamond Q over such a minor issue as signs. No hippos. Noooooo sloooooow Hippos on my beloved Q express line.
Finally, the R-68s will be coming back to the Q. Now I'd be able to sit comfortably and on an express train at the same time!
You must be getting the R68 mixed up with the R32! Unless you're really skinny or you have three seats to yourself, those R68 seats are a bit, um, narrow.
(And what makes you think you'll get a seat at all? The R40 has more standing room.)
When the Q ran R40's, all signs were yellow. IIRC the side signs were diamonds and the front signs were circles.
Uh.....It still runs R40s, and it's running with orange signs.
Oops. Before it ran R40's, that is.
Oh! OK.
I do remember seeing a lot of yellow "Q"s for years after the 1988 bridge-flip.
:-) Andrew
The Q ran R-68A and the B ran R40 until just recently in late 1998 the switch was made, and the Q runs R40 with an occasional R32 and the B runs R68A with an occasional R40.
I've never seen an R32 Q.
I once saw an R32 O, at least according to the sign up front. (The other signs all agreed it was an N.)
I see R-32 Q's every now and then. It is rare though.
Peace,
ANDEE
I rode on one in 1997, IIRC. And 1984 - all the while getting dirty looks from my sister as we crawled along the Broadway express tracks while locals zipped past us. Don't forget the R-32s began their illustrious careers on the Q back in 1964.
Check this out: R-32 signed as a Q
It would appear topcities.com has some kind of attitude about ref directly to pages. Anyway, the link seems to work if you enter it into your address bar directly. http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/18/24.jpg
It happens occassionally. The (Q) (I refuse to color it orange!) runs almost exclusively R40S's, but they are not against using the occassional R32. It's not like the (F) where anything but an R46 is shot on sight!
:-) Andrew
Hey, I rode an R40 F a few weeks ago! An R68 was a few minutes behind.
(Oh, wait, that was a Q and a D running on the F tracks. Whatever.)
Hey! You scared me there! I thought I missed it! Oooh the novelty of riding a slant on the F in Queens!
:-) Andrew
I remember when the slants debuted on the E and F lines in 1968. Who says you can't go home again?
Last time I was at Atlantic Terminal on the LIRR, I noticed that the signs for the (Q) were still yellow, after a dozen years! No point changing them now!
:-) Andrew
The F platform at Stillwell has a yellow B and a yellow D.
Then again, the 97th Street entrance to the 96th Street station on the B/C claims to be served by the C and K. A few blocks away, the entrance to the 1/2/3/9 station at the southeast corner of 96th and Broadway still makes no mention of the 9 (on the side facing south; the side facing north has one of those 1/9 labels, but it's too small).
I have pictures of the first and second.
At the northbound A/C platform at 145th Street, there is still a sign that points downstairs for the C and D trains.
at Beach 98th street on the Rockaway Park Line the Mez sign still reads A and C to brooklyn, and until recently, the Broad Channel mez still had indications for the H train, and at B'way Nassau the A/C tran platform sign reads Uptown and the Bronx, for when the C ran up the concourse
The southbound platform, too. I got a picture there a few weeks ago.
I also have pictures of a Q and a D on the center track at Fort Hamilton Parkway on the F, and of a J train claiming to be an M to 205th Street.
Re the M, I take back what I said. It claimed (on a Sunday night, yet!) to be running from Bedford Park Boulevard to Bay Parkway.
I've seen (L) trains with signs claiming to go from 8th Ave Manhattan to Rockaway Park, Queens.
:-) Andrew
At least it comes close. All it would have to do is go down the long escalator at Broadway Junction and hook up with the A there -- or, alternatively, go down the quick way. (That would, I assume, depend on whether it's an express or a local. Was it an (L) or an ?)
How would my M get up to the Bronx? I suppose it could act as a rush hour B, short-turned at the south end, but then it would surely be signed as a B. It could run onto the Williamsburg Bridge approach and reverse direction, going up the F to the B, but I don't think it can be called an M without actually crossing the bridge. That leaves this route: all the way to the end of the J, up the stairs, back into Manhattan on the E to 7th Avenue, down the stairs, and up the B/D to the Bronx. I suppose it could come into Manhattan on the R or the 63rd Street connection to 7th Avenue, but then it would have to switch to the B/D by going west at street level along 57th from 7th to 8th and then up through the long passageway, and I'm sure someone here would have reported seeing an R42 drive by Carnegie Hall (and, besides, I don't know if subway cars are equipped with unlimited MetroCards). In either case, I rode the aforementioned train from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street; it was obviously on the return trip to Brooklyn.
(Oops. Purim was last month.)
You know? These days when a subway train climbs a stairway or escalator, people don't even look anymore. Are New Yorkers jaded or what!
:-D Andrew
So that's why my ride yesterday was so bumpy! The escalator must have been broken.
LOL
The elevators at 168th Street still take you between the (A)/(B) and (1)/(9)
Hopefully the TA will have the sense to run those on the Q express once the flip happens. People should just listen to whether it is express or local like we do on the 7, no Hippos please!
Um, the 7 has signs distinguishing the (7) from the <7>.
I agree that it would be a travesty for the R68 to return to the Q, but listening to announcements isn't the answer -- announcements are often impossible to understand, and let's not forget the ADA issue.
The circle/diamond signs are a higly unreliable way to tell a local (7) form an express <7>. Unfortunately, you have to listen to station announcements.
Nothing wrong with R68s!!
:-) Andrew
The original R-68 signs were the relics, with only diamond Q's, from when it was still a rush hor special. In 1988, new signs on the 69A's and rebuilt cars had both yellow and orange circles, so it could run on both lines, and all weekday, instead of rush hour. New signs for the 68's will have all three: circles of both colors, and yellow diamonds
I have lived in Brooklyn most of my life,and from what i've guessed from reading some of the posting here, near alot of fellow sub-talkers.(hi CHRIS R30]. Riding the J has been fun for me over the years. Ive seen it at it worst and at its best. My very first subway ride ever was on this line. As a kid, it was easy to get to CONEY ISLAND during the summer because the QJ went there. It was easy to go shopping in JAMAICA because the QJ went to 168st/Jamaica. It was somthing about just standing at the window,watching buildings fly past,every now and then you'll catch an anouncment''QJ TO CONEY ISLAND,or JAMAICA BOUND QJ TO 168ST,MAKING EXPRESS STOPS ONLY TO EASTERN PKY. NEXT STOP MYRTLE/BWAY!!!!'' I think now as an adult,my passion for the rails of subway has not been dulled one bit, but only sharppend by you gentlemen[and ladies]of this board,who feel just like me. Thanks for keep on my toes. KAME OUT
Growing up in Ridgewood, I have the same feelings. Except my feelings are directed towards the M train. The J was my second favorite line, since I always had to make the connection on weekends. I have always felt the J has been underutilized. NYCTA needs to use the middle track on Jamaica Ave, and along Broadway, for express service, to encourage more people from Jamaica to take the J into Manhattan. E train is useless during rush.
Honestly, the M train should be nothing more than a shuttle to Myrtle-Bdwy during days, with connections to the J. All those T/O driving empty M trains to Chambers should be on a line that needs more service.
Then what about local service Myrtle-Marcy and also what about Brooklyn West End service? Should the Z cover the West End and run Myrtle-Marcy exp and the J run local to Broad?
For my own feelings the J as another poster remarked is priceless.It is the longest el left in the city and other than Chicago and some modern systems that are quasi-els the longest in the country.If you count speed out worth riding for anybody. I only wish it was still elevated all the way to l68 st/Jamaica , I used to like the grand entry into "downtown'" Jamaica as it used to be.
The J is one of the most interesting rides in the system. Sure, it's a bit slow -- catch it rush hours when the J/Z skip-stop and the brief express run are in effect.
[catch it rush hours when the J/Z skip-stop and the brief express run are in effect. ]
That so called express ride is pathetic! But I admit the ride is a good lightshow, a signal every 20 yards apart.
Arti
Too bad you weren't on the scene when I was running R1-9 on the J and the expresses ran to Eastern Parkway...I assume they only run exp. to Bway-Myrtle now? The stretch from Bway-Myrtle to Eastern Parkway was great, I used to clock the trains at 47 MPH between Gates and Halsey, and to Chauncey st. But that was when the trains could run their full potential too. The pesty slow curves were another story. The glory that was Rome...haha.
[Too bad you weren't on the scene when I was running R1-9 on the J and the expresses ran to Eastern Parkway...I assume they only run exp. to Bway-Myrtle now? ]
Yep, but probably as slow as the local would have been.
Arti
It's funny, I don't mind the slowness of the J, although I prefer to catch it express and skip-stop. (Then again, I never ride it to actually get anywhere.) The L gets a bit tiresome underground; it's a lot of fun once it surfaces. Other rides that I find boring are all the Coney Island locals and all the IND locals outside Midtown (except for the F/G, soaring above the Gowanus Canal).
I love Lex express during midday, IMO nothing beats it. Of course different concept than IBD.
The funny thing is that locals do annoy me, at the same time the time difference is negligable, hey my timings, using buses in CBD have shown that that's the best mode to go around 20 blocks.
Arti
IBD?
My favorite ride is the express (2, preferably) from 96th to Park Place. I found myself at the rear end of a 3 yesterday, so I watched the speedometer through the cab window, and I was surprised to see a top speed of 37. It sure felt faster than that! (I only rode from 72nd to 42nd -- it probably picks up a bit of speed south of there.)
Honorable mention (for enjoyable fast rides) goes to the A out to the Rockaways and from 59th to 125th, and to the Q in Brooklyn.
I have no interest at all in "invisible" expresses that don't run in view of the local stations they pass -- the 4/5 north of 59th and the B/D/Q between W4 and 34th.
[IBD? ]
B abd N are next too close on the keyboard :-)
[Honorable mention (for enjoyable fast rides) goes to the A out to the Rockaways and from 59th to 125th]
Lately I had a chance to take the A on CPW few times and I must say I was disappointed.
Arti
If you were on a train of R-44s, it's understandable. The CPW express dash just isn't the same without my beloved Thunderbirds strutting their stuff.
I've been on southbound 3 trains which hit 47 mph at 50th St. and kept right on going, maintaining speed until just before where the original mainline turns off. They'd get up to 41-42 on the straightaway south of 34th St. No telling how fast they could go if that straightaway were, say, 3-4 miles long.
Maybe the reason I haven't encountered a speedy Lex express is that I always seem to ride on them during rush hours. Next time, I'm going to try to catch one at midday.
[Maybe the reason I haven't encountered a speedy Lex express is that I always seem to ride on them during rush hours. Next time, I'm going to try to catch one at midday. ]
Definitely, on rush hour they crawl. Off peak, ride worth taking.
Arti
That will be at the top of list of things to do next fall - as long as my flight from Denver doesn't get into LGA five hours late the way it did last year.
B abd N are next too close on the keyboard :-)
Not on a contoured keyboard.
What's a "contoured" keyboard?
What's a "contoured" keyboard?
An allegedly more ergonomically correct keyboard that takes up half again as much desk space, costs more, and proclaims that its owner is too lazy to learn to type properly :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Have bo desire to use one.
Arti
B abd N are next too close on the keyboard :-)
Not on a contoured keyboard.
Uh....what's an R69A? Do you mean R68A?
:-) Andrew
And a question from a nonnative English speaker, id est myself: How exactly do you pronounce the names of the streets/tunnels, Montague and Joralemon?
How exactly do you pronounce the names of the streets/tunnels, Montague and Joralemon?
mon-TA-gyoo: o as in not; A as in father; yoo as in few.
jaw-RA-le-mon: aw as in jaw; A as in father; e as in get; o as in not.
And a question from a nonnative English speaker, id est myself: How exactly do you pronounce the names of the streets/tunnels, Montague and Joralemon?
I've usually heard them pronounced as Monta-GYOO and JOR-le-mon.
I always wondered how you pronounce Desbrosses Street and Laight Street.
Day BROSE, as if it was French, or des BRAWSS ez?
LAYT or LIGHT?
www.forgotten-ny.com
When I worked in the vicinity of Laight, the people around it seemed to pronounce it LIGHT.
I've also heard Deh-BROZ-ez. Don't take that as definitive.
I do know the local pronunciations of several streets on which there is disagreement. (All Brooklyn, all as of 20 years ago):
Who do you pronounce:
1) Cortelyou Road (the public and the family pronounce it differently)?
2) Classon Avenue (not what you might expect)?
3) Nostrand Avenue (the media always seem to pronounce it differently from the locals)?
>>>1) Cortelyou Road (the public and the family pronounce it differently)? <<
When I first saw it, looked like a slam-dunk, KORTL' you. Neighborhood denizens say Kor TELL' you, though.
>>>Classon Avenue (not what you might expect)? <<<
Looks like KLASS' un to me.
>>>3) Nostrand Avenue (the media always seem to pronounce it differently from the locals)? <<<
I've only heard NO' strand (not NAWS' strand)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Pronunciations:
1. Cortelyou Road - (Kor-TEL-u)
2. Classon Avenue - (CLAW-sun)
3. Nostrand Avenue - (NO-strund)
Stef. I hope my breakdown helps...
Montague = Mon-T-GeeYou
Joralemon = Gor-A-Lemon
BMTman
HEY! You got the wrong person! The person who posted is Stefan (not me), although my last name is spelled Steffan. Go figure.......
-Stef
Hey, Stef! Thanks for clarifying things!!
I was wondering why you were asking these weird questions about pronunciation!
I should talk with my Dem Dees and Does...;-)
BMTman
Thanks everyone! With Montague, I for some reason thought of it in the French manner, "mon-TUG"... Some self-re-education needed now :-)
While we are on the subject of pronunciation you do know that Houston ST. is pronounced HOUSE-ton not YOU-ston, right?
Peace,
ANDEE
Think of Romeo and Juliet. Montague vs Capulet.
> While we are on the subject of pronunciation you do know
> that Houston ST. is pronounced HOUSE-ton not YOU-ston, right?
To be sure, I've heard it pronounced both ways... and I do seem to remember that the former is right :-)
> Think of Romeo and Juliet. Montague vs Capulet.
Oh, that's interesting. Having never read it in English, I'd have replied, if asked, that it was Montecchi and Capuletti.
I'm still inclined to pronounce "Houston" as in that city in Texas.
After the Coney Island Adventure with the Sea Beach Fred group, Thurston and I doubled back to Atlantic Avenue where we saw the local Brooklyn-bound track (2/3) loaded with flatcars. One of the flats had a team of workers mixing cement, while a Bobcat was used to excavate under a section of track that was near the middle of the platform.
Apparently, the drainage system at Atlantic is being upgraded. Toward the southern end of the station we saw diesels #80, and #75 with rider car RD 325 (an R-12), sandwiched between the two. What looked like a new flatcar coupled to #80 was loaded with threaded pipe (inner sections), and an adjoining flat carried larger piping (outer sections?).
Obviously, the place had some horrible decibel levels and cement dust in the air constantly. Thankfully, trains arrived (on the express island) at frequent headways.
I snapped off a few shots which I'll forward to D. Pirmann sometime tomorrow.
BMTman
Atlantic Avenue is being totally redone as stated in the 2000-2004 capital program for the TA. They have also released a brochure explaining it. A synopsis is:
"A new glass and granite subway and LIRR terminal will soon rise at the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues. The landmark control house will also be renovated. Together, they mark the continuing renaissance of downtown Brooklyn.
Stairways and passageways are overcrowded with riders transferring between the two subway stations and the LIRR.
To make the complex easier and more pleasant to use, we're going to build a new terminal and rehabilitate the passageways, stations, and facilities connecting the Atlantic Av and Pacific St stations with the LIRR."
By the way, know that small corridor for the transferring? This brochure says its width will be doubled plus more.
I picked up a copy of that flyer while waiting for my LIRR connection. Appears that they are going to "open up" the space there & let in some light. Looks like it will be a nice.
Mr t__:^)
This is a most welcome development.
Thanks for the update on the renovation work.
However, what Thurston and I saw at going on at the IRT local track was not related to esthetics, but was more likely some infrastructure work not necessarily related to the overall reconstruction that was mentioned in the brochure. Could be, but I doubt it.
This was more of a maintenance type project related to the trackbed drainage.
BMTman
They are currently working in the passageway between Atlantic and Pacific streets as well as the little used entrance to the D/Q under the Bank. They were in full swing there and on the 2/3 (local) tracks Saturday night 2am to 3am.
I thought another mall was going there. I guess it must be on part of that land, behind the terminal.
(It's taken them so long to decide what to do with it. At one time it was going to be the new Ebbets Field)
The Mall behind the terminal is crap.
I understand that beginning tonight 4/2, for about two weeks, there will be no "J" service over the Willie B. overnights. Does anyone have the G.O. for this job, including first/last trains from either station? Thanks.
Here is what stations knows:
J runs as shuttle from Chambers to Essex. A second J runs from jaamica center to Hewes Street. The train will operate light to Marcy where it will go into service back to Jamaica Center.
Hours are 11pm to 4am. At Marcy, only the Manhattan Bound Platform will be used.
I heard a rumor that the start of service through the Connector will not begin until at least, November, 2001. Please comment.
I think it's openning in August. And in fact it's already open for reroutes, which are unofficially regular on the (F) on nights and weekends, probably right up until the official openning.
:-) Andrew
The B division motormen & conductors are picking jobs currently. This pick is scheduled to go into effect on July 1 when the Manhattan Bridge flip will take place. Queens IND service remains the same as current. We were told this pick will have a 4 month duration. This brings the next pick to November, when the revamped Queens IND service is supposed to take place. But recent developments of a new MTA Chairman and Brooklyn G riders being vocal on the cutback to Court Sq., Gov. Pataki has asked Mr. Kalikow to hold off any Queens IND service changes and to re-study the whole service plan. Don't forget, car availability (lack of R143's) is a major stumbling block.
My prediction:
August-nothing new b/c G riders will make attempts to stop new route layouts, turns out 53rd/60th St tunnels aren't well repaired anyway, service continues as now.
November-okay given that 53rd/60th are in good shape, either G riders will win or lose, if they lose, new proposed service with the V via 53rd goes into effect. If they win, more re-evaluation.
Early-mid 2002-If the G riders won, new route layout proposed and okayed.
Has anyone seen the G.O. for the overnight "J" Shuttle? I am interested in first/last times from either Essex or Marcy Sta.?
The shuttle will run from 11pm to 4am.
I heard a rumor that service through the connector will not begin until at least November,2001. Please comment; thanks.
April 1 has come and gone, and no mention anywhere of a SEPTA strike. This is good news as I can continue to plan to take my family to Philly from Palm Sunday through Tuesday the 10th. To try to tour a city under siege if there were to be a strike is not my idea of a good time.
I had read sometime earlier that a strike could be "anytime after April 1." Does that mean we're still not out of the woods?
The only other obstacle is that I just found out my wife has RELATIVES in Philly!! That's a real trip-killer!
The city division signed a new contract without a strike.
Delaware County's Victory Division (including routes 100, 101 and 102 [P&W, Media and Sharon Hill trolleys]) have a tentative agreement that will be voted on next Sunday. Looks like you're in the clear.
He's in the clear strikewise...Now the only other thing he can hope for, is that his wifes relatives go out of town 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
At times when the W terminates at Pacific, could it go thru the Montauge Street tunnel and run to Essex/Delancey Streets? It would only run at times when the W would terminate at Pacific under the current plan. What do people think?
That would cost extra money. There is a tower that is not manned on the weekends so no trains run through from Montague tunnel and the cost of Station Agents at Broad St. which is closed.
The tower is on automatic control in the downtown area so that's not a problem.
Only Broad St would have to hire token clerks for full service to be implemented.
600' long train on Nassau Street ? Those W's would have to be 300' long, or borrow 60 footers from other lines.
They'd have to run 8 car R32/40/42's. The 68's would have to go elsewhere. Not that there's a shot in hell of this happening.
Weren't Fulton and Broad lengthened to 600', or am I overestimating the extra space at the ends of the platform?
Even if they were, The main concern is Bowery. People from Grand want to get to BOWERY for Bklyn. Service.
And, I think that Broad has been lengthened to 10 cars.
Which is what my idea does.
No, the Broad and Fulton Street platforms definitely cannot handle 600 foot trains.
The Broad Street station MAY be able to handle nine cars, and that's if the T/O puts his cab into the mouth of the tunnel (i.e. 63rd Drive).
The can all handle 9 cars becuase they were built to handle 8 Standards.
The platforms at Fulton Street are 542 feet long, and those at Broad Street are 532 feet long.
David
The Weekend "W" should be made up of Slant R40 which would come from the Diamond "Q". Just like some of the weekend "B" currently is.
wayne
"The Weekend "W" should be made up of Slant R40 which would come from the Diamond "Q"."
No, the whole idea is to minimize the # of R-40s running off-hours. That's why they went from the B to the Q, from a full 24/7 line to a weekday line, and those things are invisible on the weekends. There can't be any more than 1-2 extra on the B anyway.
The tower is on automatic control in the downtown area so that's not a problem.
So why don't J trains run at least to Fulton on weekends? The J now ends just shy of a major transfer point. (Yes, I know I can change from the J to the 4/5 at Chambers to get there, but that's an unnecessary annoyance.)
Only Broad St would have to hire token clerks for full service to be implemented.
So use HEETs; anyone without a MetroCard could buy one at an MVM or at the adjacent 4/5 station.
Alternatively, bypass the station -- it's certainly not a major weekend destination and it's not a transfer point.
>>>>So why don't J trains run at least to Fulton on weekends? The J now ends just shy of a major transfer point. (Yes, I know I can change from the J to the 4/5 at Chambers to get there, but that's an unnecessary annoyance.)<<<<
I agree, they should offer service to Fulton Street on the weekends. But look on the bright side, a few years back, the J trains used to terminate at Canal Street. Now THAT'S an annoyance.
>>>>So use HEETs; anyone without a MetroCard could buy one at an MVM or at the adjacent 4/5 station.<<<<
The union would vehemently oppose this.
I agree, they should offer service to Fulton Street on the weekends. But look on the bright side, a few years back, the J trains used to terminate at Canal Street. Now THAT'S an annoyance.
It sure was, but I don't think that lasted more than a year. Before that, the J ran to Broad at all times.
The union would vehemently oppose this.
Why? Nobody's closing a station that's currently open; I'm simply suggesting that the TA reopen a station that's currently closed, but without reopening the token booths.
Hire station agents. Who is this susposed to benefit? Chinatown or the MTA?
The M should run at all times to Bay Parkway.
If the W can't run to Manhattan on weekends, it should be cancelled entirely and the M extended to Stillwell instead.
All times?
Maybe it was just that one time I rode the B from CI. But we waited for an M to go into service at Bay Parway, but it was the slowest ride of all the lines from Ci during rush hour. If the M were to run all times, the B should go express.
=)
There's no reason the M should be slower than the B (aka W). It might even be faster due to car type.
The W could run express peak direction on the center track. It would stop at 62nd (transfer to the N) and Bay Parkway. Things might get a bit messy at BP with M's terminating from the local track while W's switch from the express track to the local track -- maybe it would work better (although it would be less desirable) for the M to run express and the W to run local.
This extended "M"/beefed up West End service is a very good idea.
If they use slants on the "W" then they will dust the "M" unless the lead motor's an R40M.
And the express service should also stop at 9th Avenue. The express service should reverse directions between 1230PM and 1PM.
Can't they get SOMEBODY, ANYBODY to fill the shifts at Broad Street on the weekends? I mean, it's a title job, Station Agent; SOMEBODY must be qualified for it - Hey Subway Buff, would you like a regular slot?
Aren't there sights to see in the Financial district on the weekends?
wayne
Thanks.
I'm afraid Broad Street really isn't terribly useful on weekends. Either bypass it or open it as a self-service-only station.
The booth at broad Street is currently a part-time booth. It is open 24 hours except weekends when it is closed. They would need RDO coverage for that booth for 3 tours plus lunch relief covergae for 3 tours.
Also, that job would then have to be put on the pick which is seniority based.
(Fulton Street's J booths are also part-time and would need the same coverage.)
Could you leave the J Fulton Booths closed on weekends?
Yes. Those booths could be left closed -all we'd nedd there would be to have the gates from the 2/3/A/C/4/5 left open.
Slants on the Center West End Track?!?
Peak Express Direction R40S MUs??!?!
Improved "M" service with R40Ms?!?!!
Let me pinch myself...OUCH
Damn knew it was too good to be true. But it's a GREAT idea.
Things shouldn't get messy at Bay Parkway with M locals terminating there. This pattern is currently practiced on the 6 line in the Bronx with 6 locals terminating at Parkchester and 6 expresses continuing to Pelham Bay. It could be done on the West End line too.
I was thinking of that, too. That is why I think my weekend W should only run weekends, not middays.
The only reason it wouldn't be able to run on weekends is the Bridge being completely closed (South side open weekdays only). In that case, only the would run through the tunnel. They might barely have room for a fourth line, but they never do it.
Will the bridge be closed on weekends? I don't think that's anything more than conjecture on this board.
I had heard something like that a while back, plus there is no other reason they'd terminate the W at 36th St (Or Pacific?). Perhaps it's all conjecture. I know my source is shaky (can't even remember who it was)I'm not sure where the shuttle rumor came from. Someone just posted it within the past couple of weeks, and without saying it, they could be planning only part time service, but don't want to alarm anyone any more than they already are.
Better: leave the M where it is, run the J all the way out to Bay Parkway. Less cars needed for same service. Why off-hours run one service to Broad and the other to Bay Parkway when you can run one to Myrtle and the other to Bay Parkway without annoying too many people?
Simply extending the M train to Bay Parkway 24/7 would probably be easier (switching,etc). Still better than what the TA has in mind though.
---Qtraindash7----is also at aol.com----->
They could terminate the J at Myrtle Avenue, run the M to Coney Island, kill the W.
Which is better for Brooklyn though, the M or the J. Why can't the J run all the way out to Brooklyn? Also, when and why was the decision made to replace the J/QJ with the M on Brighton?
If the M is running there now, it is easier to extend it on weekends instead of the J. It is less confusing.
The M links two Hasidic Jewish areas now that it runs on 4th Avenue. The QJ became the J and M became the "QM" in order to cut service on the Southern Division via Nassau Street. There are fewer M's than J's.
It happened in the mid-70's.
Yes, it links the Belzer Hassidim with the Satmar Hassidim. Both groups do NOT like each other. Figure that one out. they both do not care too much for the Lubavitchers on Eastern Parkway. I am not making this up, because one of their number told me the deal. I am glad to be neutral in that argument.
Boro Park is a mixed Orthodox crowd. It's not all chassidic (it's mostly not, AFAIK), and the multiple groups of chassidim live there.
Williamsburg was once also pretty diverse. My father grew up there and he's certainly not a chassid. Now it's essentially all Satmar.
Boro Park is Bobov mostly. Boro Park also has the largest birth rate and population rate in the City, if not the State. This reason alone should get the TA to increase "M" service.
The largest chassidic group in Boro Park may be Bobov, but there are lots of non-chassidim there as well (unlike Williamsburg and Crown Heights).
True, but Williamsburg has a large Spanish influx, and Crown Heights a large Jamaican/Carribean population. The other residents of Boro Park other than the Bobov are from Central Russia.
Yes, it links the Belzer Hassidim with the Satmar Hassidim. Both groups do NOT like each other. Figure that one out. They both do not care too much for the Lubavitchers on Eastern Parkway. I am not making this up, because one of their number told me the deal. I am glad to be neutral in that argument. To each his own.
Last night the RCI at V.C. informed me that 40 Pelham R62A's will be relocated at 240 yard (10 are already on the road op. car 1665)plus several are to go to Livonia with the 3 possibly running 10 cars. (in TA speak increasing service) The rest of the fleet is to be sent to Corona yard for use on the Flushing line
I will post more information as I become aware of it.
Woo hoo! So when can we expect to see them on the (7)?
We have to wait for the 142's to be a majority of the operating fleet at Pelham, since we all know how well they run.
That probably means the summer (assuming that there is enough storage)
I'll sure miss the front window of the Redbirds on the 7. Well there's one plus, the A/C on the R62A's should be a lot better than on the Redbirds.
---Qtraindash7----is also at aol.com----->
This weekend there was express service only uptown from Times Square to 72nd. The conductor on the '3' I was on yesterday was quite informative in notifying us of this, and advised those wishing to change for 50th, 59th or 66th Streets to turn around at 96th rather than 72nd.
Seventy-Second, he explained, does not offer a crossover, and turning around there might require arguing with the token clerk who might or might not let people back in the downtown side- unless, he added, you're an attractive female. That got a few chuckles and a disgusted "Yeah, really!" from a male in my car.
But shouldn't the station department KNOWS there's such a GO, and have somebody at 72nd to hand out transfers, or allow people to cross over? There have been times that such a GO has been on the Lex, and transfers are offered at 86th Street- but then other times when we're advised to turn around at 59th or 125th, depending on direction.
Of course, too many people ASSUME you can always turn around at an express stop, just the way they assume every transfer point is an express stop. Just ride the Flushing-bound '7' express past 74th-Broadway some PM rush hour and watch the panic set in.
As far as letting people turn around where there's no crossover, the conductor's quip about being allowed through if one is an attractive female is all too true. Many times I've seen women con the token clerk at 86th/Lex, 72nd/Broadway, Briarwood/Van Wyck, Astor Place and other such crossoverless stations into letting them back in free by acting tearful or confused: "I don't know where I'm going"; "I took the wrong train the wrong way"; "My card ran out"; "I don't have any more money." The clerk, whether male (can't resist a pretty face) or female (must show solidarity to her own) ALWAYS seems to relent.
NEVER have I seen a clerk let a male passenger through in such a siutation.
The Hagstrom subway map used to mark each station without a crossover with an asterix. Might help in the official MTA map did that.
But then how do you explain Nevins Street- and what does the clerk let you do when the crossunder is closed?
According to the announcement sheet given to the C/R's transfers were given out at 79st. I also heard that stations dept. were letting people crossover at 72nd. C/R's usually will tell people to change at 96st in case of a change in operating procedures.
That's right. I was on the northbound plat at Times Sq directing taffic during yetserday's GO, and was told by a Supervisor that folks could get off at 72nd or 79th Sts. If you got off at 79th St, then passengers would obtain a ticket to cross the street and re-enter the subway without paying again.
This didn't go without incident. There was at least one annoyed cutomer who described the GO as outrageous. My response - that's unfortunate. A contractor was working over the track, what does a customer feel they should do, shoot the messenger?
-Stef
The Station Agents at 72nd should have received a bulletin advising to issue G.O. Tickets to allow access to the other side. To avoid a dispute just go t0 96th Street which does have a crossunder.
Yeah, but who wants to go to 96th St? Tickets were being handed out at 79th St to cross the Street, which I believe was difficult for some folks anyway. I sent some of the passengers to take the A and C for 50 and 59th Sts.
-Stef
Right. but I have done just that myself(before working for transit).
79 is one other option as is the IND- Good job!
I exited one side and jumped the other. I really don't see the need in handing out block transfers for walking two feet. That space is so cramped that having one person give transfers out and another take them would crowd the room too much to allow anyone to move, and anyway both sides are so close to each other they may as well leave the gate open and the hell with it, free entry for downtown side at this station.
>>>I exited one side and jumped the other. <<<
Yes, but by "jumping the other" you risked a ticket from an overzealous cop, be careful.
Peace,
ANDEE
No cops anywhere in mezz. If there were, they probably heard my 'Yo, I'm crossin' over'.
I'm sure another commonly heard excuse is "Nobody told me it was an express".
Personally, I think it's outrageous that passengers who are forced out of their way by a GO are then required to go even further out of their way to backtrack to wherever they're trying to go.
As a matter of policy, the first possible transfer point should be made available as a transfer point -- be it with paper transfers, with a MetroCard transfer (for trips from the affected stations in one direction and for all trips started within two hours in the other direction), or with simply free access to the station.
In this case, the GO calls for passengers to transfer at 79th. That's just plain stupid; 79th is the typical IRT local station, with northbound trains on one side of Broadway and southbound trains on the other, while 72nd has a single stationhouse with northbound and southbound turnstiles a few feet from each other. It would be trivially easy to station a guard by the turnstiles to allow free entry to anyone who just exited from the other side -- or, for that matter, to build a temporary passageway (chain link fences would do) connecting one turnstile on the southbound side to one turnstile on the northbound side, leaving the southbound one unlocked. (Yes, that means that anyone trying to get to the token booth from the north side of the stationhouse would have to -- gasp! -- go outside and walk around the little building, which might take a whole 15 seconds.)
I hope I'm not insulting someone on this board by saying this, but whoever writes up the GO's is an idiot. When northbound trains were running express from 72nd to 96th, the GO instructed riders to transfer at 59th, when 66th has a perfectly good underpass. The recurring GO on the B in Brooklyn -- running express on the Sea Beach -- doesn't indicate whether it runs express or local, but does claim that trains stop at 62nd-NUA (in reality, they don't, but this same GO has been posted for over a month). And this week's GO on the 6 in the Bronx is listed on the TA's web page as taking place April 2-6 with regular service April 4, 5, and 6 -- why not just list it as taking place April 2 and 3?
It would also be nice if every GO were explicitly posted and announced. Both today on the 6 and on March 25 on the B, there were neither signs nor announcements on the trains I rode; the latter case generated a carful of angry passengers, one of whom was trying to go only one stop on the B.
The only thing that is closed at Nevins is the stairwell to the Manhattan bound platform(9pm-6am). You must use the NL/FLA stairwell, then use the crossunder to get to the Manhattan bound platform.
The only thing that is closed at Nevins is the stairwell to the Manhattan bound platform(9pm-6am). You must use the NL/FLA stairwell, then use the crossunder to get to the Manhattan bound platform.
There was a special "Manhattan By Subway and Bus" map available for tourists before the MTA's The Map design came in. It had an X in the dot for all stations (local or express) lacking crossovers. Last version was printed 1998, I picked it up at Croton Harmon MNRR station in 1999.
Here is a PHOTO of the gang from Sundays tour, courtesy of BMTMan.
From left to right, Victor, Danilm, SB Fred, BMTJeff, B Newkirk (holding sign), Rosanne (Garys wife), Qtraindash7, Gary Wengeroff and Thurston (showing his good side) PHOTOGRAPHER DOUG DIAMOND (BMTMAN)
Peace,
ANDEE
PS-more photos later
Thanks for uploading the shots, Andee -- they actually look better than when I took them!
Looks like Bill "Newkirk" is trying for the SubTalk 'Ham of the Year Award'...;-)
BMTman
For some more pics CLICK HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
What kind of camera??
And at 5'1 (5'2 is pushing it) I'm the shortest of most everybody. It definately is not a good thing when it comes to things in the romance department! :-(
Damn I haven't had a girlfriend since I was 16 and she dumped me. 25 years old now it's really starting to eat me now. I'm 1 for 6 (5 strikes, turn downs) All the cute girls seem to want near 6', even if they are 5'2 or under.
If only women were like trains, since trains don't care who's operating them. :-)
Well small cabs like on the Redbirds don't like big people. I've seen big guys operating from those little Redbird cabs, it looks hard.
What subway trains do have the smallest cabs anyway?
John, don't you think you're limiting your 'range' of available women by focusing on height? I bet there are women who might be interested in you but might actually be taller than you. It's more a physcological wall that you have to get over, I'd suppose(DAMN -- I'm sorry if I'm sounding like Dr. Ruth!)
[If only women were like trains, since trains don't care who's operating them.]
That's a loaded statement...
[What subway trains do have the smallest cabs anyway?]
Probably the trains that run in Osaka or Tokyo...;-)
BMTman
Hey Q7, that's the girls problem not yours. That's why so many of them end up in dead end relationships, because they look at a guy's looks, and buns, and whatever, instead of looking at character. Don't worry, you will meet that one special person. As for those other girls who dumped you, the hell with them. They probably aren't even worth your concern. Take care.
Well put. If they're not interested, it's their loss. I know my receding hairline has turned off more than one female, and that's too bad for her.
Absolutely loaded question: Is the semaphore in the photo real, a fan prop or what? If it's real and that low on a platform, it's trash prone. Besides, why is it sideways to the platform/track?
Confused folks want to know.
The semaphore in question IS real, but is decommissioned. It was last in use on the IRT New Lots Line (New Lots Ave. I believe). The signal was removed from their in the 60's I believe and was placed in front of the Stillwell Tower dedicated to the system's signalmen (there is a plaque attached to the front of it).
BMTman
I hate to admit it, but I remember when that semaphore was actually in use at the south (east) end of the New Lots Ave station on the
Livonia Ave IRT. I saw it from the railfan window on a low V in 1962
as we pulled into the terminus, and that was the LAST time I visited that station, even though I still live in NYC. I did ride the 14 St Canarsie line to Rockaway Parkway recently and was surprised to see the ramp connection from both the Canarsie line as well as the Livonia Ave El going to the Linden Track Fabrication Shop.
A few dwarf semaphores survived up until a few years ago at East 180th Street yard. There might be some still out there hidden on the Woodlawn-Jerome line, or the Pelham line, but I have that funny old feeling that they went into retirement. That old semaphore on the New Lots line was special, and it can still be seen in the Transit Museum. Speaking about equipment from the old days, there were some blingd trips on the Woodlawn line just North of Bedford Park Blvd. were they all taken out?
Go to the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. That is where it is, but it is not operational. There is a plaque on it giving the details.
Well if you do decide to go to the Transit Museum, don't go on Monday April 23rd (or at least call ahead). According to the TA, they are conducting a GO at the Transit Museum on this day from 9am to 2 pm. Power will be off on all the tracks due to ParaTransit training.
The Museum isn't usually open on a Monday, so customers will not be permitted into the facility.
Para transit training? Aww shucks, I thought maybe they were moving some cars around...
-Stef
I think zman is just hanking at our chains on this one.....;-)
BMTman
No BMTman, it's true. I'm not hanking your chain here (and if I was, I wouldn't even know that I was even doing it. I've never hanked a chain before, but I have hanked a kerchief).
Sorry, I was on a binge again. I meant 'yanking'....:-)
BMT(stoned)man
What are you trying to say, that if you took a urine sample it'd be glowing?
Well, it's nice to meet all of you. And now I know who the friendly Thurston of Queens Surface fame looks like (I haven't gotten any email from you lately).
Ron, et., al., go check out the "Field Trip" reports you'll see more shots of the usualy suspects & some nice photos of equipment locally and elsewhere, e.g. Boston/Sea Shore includes PCCs in Boston & Sea Shore's "A train" with a couple of SubTalkers "assuming the position".
For those who haven't poked around elsewhere on this site there is a load of information, e.g. where are those old cars now, FAQ, abandoned stations, "R" numbers explained, station by station walk throughs.
Mr t__:^)
I sure get envious of these trips when you guys can get together like that!
I have about as much chance of getting back to NY as you guys have of ever seeing the 15 cent fare again.
(Hey Thurston, How come you look away every time a picture is taken? You did the same thing on Jeff's picture in the Tripper.)
[You did the same thing on Jeff's picture in the Tripper.]
First, for those that don't know, the Tripper is Branford's monthly newsletter.
Second, the BMTman & I got assigned the job of changing the heater element in the shop's water heater. While I had my hands in the water & muck and the BMTman was standing with vacuum hose in hand SubTalker & fellow Branford member Jeff snuck up to take a photo. And you thought the only getting dirty up there was on subway cars ?
I was very happy to learn that the heater actually worked after these two Nortons gave it their best shot ;-)
BTW, If Sea Beach Fred & 8th Ave Steve can make it back here just for fun, why not you? April Fools is now gone, but I sure we can come up with another date & group of your friends here to take you for a ride.
Mr t__:^)
Well, I am planning to be in the city during the week of October 21, so perhaps a few of us can get together then.
Why am I NOT shocked that Sea Beach Fred is the one with a tan. You didn't need to place a caption to identify him that's for sure. LOL.
zman179: It's a combination of the sunny California sun and my Italian heritage that makes me stand out as the bronzed beast that I am. Funny, eh? Well, glad you could pick me out. I wish you could have come. Your name came up two or three times during the trip. Maybe we'll touch base the next time I'm in town. It was quite a day.
I wish that I could have come as well. Maybe next time.
BTW, when my name came up, was there a lot of cursing and spitting by the other SubTalkers?
No. Not us. But we ran into a number of C/R's who claimed to have worked with you on the Eastern Division. Boy were they PISSED!!!
Some grumbling among them about you hitting the brakes like a madman...and dumping for no reason at all...even an attempt to 'pop a wheelie' with a set of slant R-40's??!!
You're a regular wildman....:-)
BMTman
Damnit those C/R rookies. That was a FRIGGIN R42 that I tried to "pop-a-wheelie" with. Dey cant's identeefy nuttin me tell ya.
Oh wait a minute, after I hit the barn wall it did have a slant on it, so I can see where they got confused. My apologies.
That pick's killing ya buddy ... that was a 40M that you reverted back to factory condition. :)
Too bad that you weren't able to go on the Field Trip. You could have pointed the spot out that you took a little nap at (pointed with your finger, NOT YOUR HEAD).
Heh. It was near the circuit breaker house on the layup tracks, Stillwell ... if that's still there, you've got the location. And I'm older now, a WEE bit saner but not by much. :)
LOL! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
:-)
We gotta stop these posts -- my hides can't take much more! Or my kidneys....
BMTman
I like madmen T/O's and engineers, that's the way I'd operate. Pushing the timers and plowing into stations at speed and then slamming the brakes. It especially feels good on a Slant R40 or R32, even a 46 aint bad.
Actually R46 operators have a tendency to slam the brakes and I just love it!
Ooookay....
After I said goodbye to you I went back onto the No. 7 train and went to the Main St. Flushing station at the end of the line. This is the first time I've seen the station since it has been renovated. They did a terrific job on it. It used to be a terrible station because you used to have to WALK through the trains in order to get from one platform to the other. You don't have to do that any more and the station is much cleaner than it used to be. then took the No. 7 back to 74th St. Roosevelt Ave and changed to an "E" train which happened to have been a set of R-46s to 7th Ave. in Manhattan and walked to the Central Park Carousel to take a ride on it. Then I went back to Grand Central Terminal and took the 5:20 Hudson Line local back to Hastings-on-Hudson.
BMTJeff
Hey, zman that's pretty funny since Sea Beach Fred was darker than me -- and I have a 'natural tan'! :-)
BMTman
Many thanks for the great photos!
Hey there Victor ! Don't be a stranger here !
Enjoyed your company & the reminiscing of things that some of us have only heard about.
Mr t__:^)
Look closely and you can see the Wonder Wheel ... too bad the shot missed the Cyclone or Fred would have wanted to make a 4 X 6 poster out of it.
Mr t__:^)
>>> Here is a PHOTO of the gang from Sundays tour <<<
After seeing the photo I understand why New Yorkers want the end doors on trains unlocked so they can flee from roving gangs that hang out on the subways. :-^)
Tom
Thankfully we were spared the scariest character, BMTMan, who is behind the camera. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well it looks like out friend Phil is in for a turn of good luck as Harrtford CT is proposing a light rail line. The line would connect both the east and west sides of the CT river, have 16 stops and connect the proposed Rentschler Field development, the new University of Connecticut football stadium, Adriaen's Landing and the Meadows Music Theatre. Price estimates are about 120 million $'s but CT already has a down payment in $33 million dollars in federal money that was allocated for an airport monorail project that never got built.
The state is already spending more than $500 million at Adriaen's Landing and $91 million for the new UConn stadium. Lawmakers are also asking the state to spend an estimated $25 million to $30 million to construct two new roads inside Rentschler Field, and a fly-over ramp that would bring commuters directly from Interstate 84 to their jobs at the office park. The 16-stop transit loop, in essence, will be competing with the fly-over project for limited public funds.
How many cars are on order? Is it going to be those Low Floor LRV's or what?
R40S #4200
Since it is still in the proposal stage, this discussion is mote.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm on the distribution of a weekly elect. newsletter that covers the tri-state area. They are only talking about rail for NH/Hartford/Springfield, some buses & road work, i.e. I've seen NOTHING recently about light rail for Hartford.
A East - West line would seem to fill a need there, as well as a North - South line on existing ROW. I can't think of a place they could run the East - West line except on the streets ... that should give the NIMBYs a way to kill the idea.
Mr t__:^)
According to my Arrow Street Map of Greater Hartford, there's a railroad ROW parallel to Tolland Turnpike in East Hartford. It crosses the Connecticut River into Hartford and connects to Amtrak's Inland Route. It would allow for allow for a completely off-street route from Manchester to Downtown Hartford on an existing ROW.
You mind sharing the name/address of the e-newsletter? Thanks a lot.
Do you have any links for more info, or a map of the proposed route?
I only know of a Hartford Courant article:
http://www.ctnow.com/scripts/editorial.dll?render=y&eetype=Article&eeid=4277966&ck=&ver=2.5
I'd have to say that the planned light rail for Hartford is a poor idea. Its essential flaw is that it's been proposed for the wrong reasons.
As I've noted here before, the Hartford area was hit very hard by the "Great Recession" of the early 1990's, and more to the point has never fully recovered. Recent census results show that Hartford County grew by only 1% during the 1990's, a dismal rate for an area that still has plenty of developable land remaining. I would surmise that the number of jobs in Downtown Hartford today is less than in the late 1980's.
While Hartford can have fairly heavy traffic during rush hour, it's not all that bad, certainly not in comparison to many other transit-less cities. Obviously the sluggish population and jobs growth has kept traffic manageable. There really is no need for a costly light-rail system (no doubt the $120 million estimate will rise) based strictly from a transportation viewpoint. What I suspect, however, is that state and local politicians figure that the line will help spur economic growth - a "Field of Dreams" scenario. Granted, the line probably will help somewhat in that respect, but it's unlikely to be any sort of cure-all for the region's economic woes. Surely there must be other ways of spending that money that will produce a greater payback in terms of growth and jobs.
I'd do it a LOT differently:
A) Starting at Rentschler Field, near Pratt's Engineering Office Building (A or was it B?) , start north toward Silver Lane, going through the business park, and houseing that's planned (heh). Stop at the uCON stadium, and then go up Roberts, toward Burnside., Go left at Burnside, toward Main Street. this would service numerous housing/apartment blocks, and the local tattoo place, and a 7-Eleven. Turn south at Main, and go toward CONn Blvd. Turn right, towards the Founder's Bridge (Or is it Charter Oak?). Hit Auto Row, then go over the bridge. Bear left at the Old State House (tm) and then turn right on main. Follow the T bus route to Blue Hills Ave, and keep going until it splits into multiple T routes. End it there.
B) Eventually, build extensions off the T route to cover the V, K, and Q lines. At the point where these lines break into multiple routes, terminate the trolley, and run (free? Certianly free transfer...) busses to finish the lines off.
C) Even more eventually, head south on main in Hartford and cover some routes that way.
D) Avoid the stillborn Adrian's landing mess, and the CT Expo Center.
E) Possibly consider the Griffins line to Bloomfield, or better yet, running along the slAmtrak ROW to Windsor Locks, and hitting the airport up there.
F) Wow. A semi-useful system, as opposed to a useless tourist attraction.
G) I'm not sure WHY CT is even building a football stadium on what's effectively a toxic waste dump. Hartford couldn't even keep a third rate hockey team. I don't see uCON football as a huge attraction either. And you're not going to get any NFL action here either.
H) As to why CT hates rail in general? Beats me, you'd think TilCON, etc, would be glad to build/pave/pour anything (hey, watch that child!). Oh well...
UConn's football program is now NCAA Division I-A after being a charter member of Division I-AA. A Division I-A school has to have a stadium with a minimum capacity of 25,000 (IIRC). Memorial Stadium on the Storrs campus seats only 16,000, and they must have felt it would be impossible to expand it (it butts right up against Gampel Pavilion). UConn was granted an exemption while a new stadium could be built. Apparently, there wasn't any room at Storrs for a new stadium, although I don't necessarily agree.
Back on topic, I remember seeing old streetcar tracks in the middle of US 5 through East Hartford right where it passes under I-84. This was back in the early 80s; the tracks have since been paved over.
test
TEST
TESTING
IF YOU CAN READ THIS THEN SUB TALK WORKS
SUBTalk has been working since saturday around 1130 am thanks to D Pirmann.
Peace,
ANDEE
and..PS turn OFF your HTML tags
Just be thankful he closed the <MARQUEE> tag...
(You're all going to hate me for this one...)
Or THIS would have happened:
LOL-- wait i have to wait for it to come around again 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I Was jus checking To See if it was REALLY WORKING.
And you STILL need to TURN OFF your HTML tags!!!!
I dunno when it ends, but it begins at 8am. It is for public as well as employees. I hear that to get there, you must use the Avenue X entrance served by the F line. I talked to someone from Video at the 370 jay street office. They said its this saturday the 7th at 8am. Hope to see you there
I thot this up last night. I guess you know you're a transit geek when an idea comes to you while you're spending "quality time" with your girlfriend, but anyhoo, here it is:
Rebuild the old Met connection between the Douglas and the Lake. Rebuild the Medical Center station on the Blue Line so Congress trains stop directly below Douglas trains, with an Elevator between the two. Then add a station on the old Met el to serve Chicago Stadium (think of all the new ridership). Run the Douglas line as a green line train. Douglas trains would go to Jackson Park, Lake trains would go to Englewood. Douglas-Jackson park trains would follow the south and west sides of the loop tracks, while Lake-Englewood trains would follow the north and east sides of the loop as they do now. This would give Green line riders a one-seat ride to any point on the loop, plus simplify operations: The Green line would be the only el route with two different tails. Then you could just max out service on the Congress line to connect with O'Hare. It also means increased service for Lakers and Jackson Parkers.
Another benefit of this would be if the reconstruction of the Medical Center took place right now. If the station was arranged as said above, Douglas trains could operate as a shuttle without negatively affecting Congress service while portions of the Douglas line were being rebuilt (let's face it, the entire thing is going to need to be overhauled in the next 20 years before it falls down flat and crunches a bunch of parked cars underneath it).
So you get simplified operations, one-seat Green line service to every station on the loop, Chicago Stadium service that should attract quite a few thousand fans every time the Blackhawks or Bulls are playing, and Douglas riders get a daylight ride into downtown - the way it was meant to be.
Questions, comments, criticisms, or suggestions?
Sure, I'll bite.
First, your girl friend needs to....well....you got too much time on your hands. LOL.
If the city and the CTA wanted to serve United Center, they could have added a station to the Green Line a long time ago. Since they didn't...they don't want to.
Blue Line rehab money is almost a "done deal." So don't worry about the Douglas PK branch.
Rather than your plan...please start and finish plans that have been on the boards for decades: put transit in corridors already designated; ie: Crosstown Corridor, South Chicago AV, extend Yellow Line, extend Red Line to 103rd, substitute "L" for Lake Front Metra Electric.
And last but not least, in Chicago, its called the "L", not "El."
Every five years an air mapping is done for these corridors with nothing to show but stacks of photo map books.
David Harrison
<Electric. >>
surely you jest. The IC even it its current form is one of the best. Could it be improved? Yes. Start by integrasting the CTA farecards and make any ride within city limits flat CTA single fare.
How can you call Metra Electric (IC) good service. First, the CTA Lakefront Projection is the Electric from downtown to South Chicago AV only; not the main to University Park. In this city area you have only a handful of inbound am rush hour trains and outbound pm, and at other times one train an hour, if not one per 90 minutes. Thats not rapid transit service by any definition.
We won't mention the 25 mph down the middle of the street operation that is called the South Chicago Branch, because frankly, neither does the CTA.
A more ambitious proposal would be to extend this Lake Front Line north beneath the river into Streeterville.
The biggest on-the-books plan is for the Crosstown which would start at Dempster (Yellow Line); go south to Jeff Park (Blue Line); continue south to Midway (Orange Line); turn east to connect with the Red Line at about 75th ST.
But in the city, Metra is far from the "best." My two Lincolns!
David Harrison
What is now the Metra Electric within in the city of Chicago is a mere shadow of what it was 50 years ago. At that time there were many more stations, and the line ran more like a rapid transit than a suburban rail operation. There were 6 tracks between 53rd St. and Roosevelt Rd, and there were locals to 53rd making stops approx. every half mile or so, running every 15-20 min. during non-rush hours and every 10 min during rush hours.
Even the much maligned South Chicago branch, with its street-level running, had non-rush hour service every 20 minutes into the late 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
actually midday headways slipped to half hourly in the late fities. in turn 'Specials' to/from the So. Chicago Branch were downgraded in 1965. All of this after the 5/6 tracks were removed in the late fifties. All that said, it wass still a splendid system. When I used it for a Loop job in 64/5 I was late to work twice only--and one of those was after a blizzard with all trains running at restricted speed. In 1967 when there had been a monster blizzard the IC ran as opposed to CTA whose abandonned buses could be seen drifted over on the streets. and the L was down for a day.
The one guy's comment about the UIC Halsted makes a lotta sense. Okay, so the plan is a dud. It wasn't like I was supposed to be thinking about "rail transit" at that time anyway...
What most of Metra needs is electrification - the diesel routes could be so much faster if they ran good EMUs instead of push-pull diesel. A lot of Metra lines have stops too close together for diesel...it would make more sense with electrics. Personally I'd like to see the former C&NW-West line electrified, but that could have something to do with me having grown up in Wheaton...
as someone with a destination signbox from an IC Electric (set to South Chico Special South Shore District) in my dining room next to a similar box from a 6000 (set to Jackson Pk Howard B) I am for more electrification. I would probably start with the ex RI lines and connect the IC Blue Island to their main. Wheaton, eh think CA&E
Wheaton, eh think CA&E
Hmmm, and what about the thousands of joggers, stroller-pushers, professional cyclists, and parent-child duos on bikes that use the old CA&E grade every day?
I'm sorry man, but a lot of my fondest childhood memories are of riding on the Prarie Path, or enjoying some DQ sitting on the old truss bridge over the C&NW West line and watching the outbound Metra trains roll underneath. And childhood memories aren't all of it, either. When I visited Chicago in 1998, I really appreciated the speed with which I could travel on the basically grade-seperated bike path (minimal intersections). I could literally get from my old neighborhood (Winfield Estates, at the corner of County Farm and Geneva Road) to my old best friend's house (A resident of South Wheaton, near where the prarie path crosses Butterfield Road) faster on my bike than my folks could in the rental car (they had to wait at multiple stoplights, while I had to wait at only two - the rest of the prarie path intersections are with residential streets which you don't even have to stop at).
I'm all for rail transit, but not at the expense of pedestrian and bicycle use. Nope. Electrify the C&NW, but I think any attempt at a C&AE rebuild would create more political strife than you can possibly imagine...and I can assure you I'd be with the anti-rail people on that one.
Interesting tidbit - Most people don't know that there is a spur off the old C&AE main (now the prarie path) that connected to West Chicago. It was actually originally part of the Galena, the first coal-hauling railroad from Chicago to the west (i think it was started in the early 1800s). About half of the ROW is gone (subdivisions cover it), and most of the rest has been paved over and become city streets in West Chicago, but there is a short segment of original grade and ballast between the C&AE main and County Farm Road. It's surrounded by trees (like a 40-foot windbreak), owned by ComEd (they have lines running along it), and it was an awesome place to build tree forts and play army. Aaah, the memories...
I'm not saying you're wrong, and no insult intended, but this posting is a perfect example of why I'm exceedingly wary of the oft-touted idea of rails-to-trails as a means of preserving ROW for potential restoration to rail use.
Logically speaking, letting joggers, cyclists, skaters, etc. use the ROW while the rail companies aren't makes perfect sense. But the longer the ROW is used by the joggers, cyclists, skaters, etc., the more resistance there will be to the restoration of rail service. Especially since it takes grass-roots organization and dedicated volunteers to keep a trail in good condition: that same organization and those same volunteers rally against the efforts of the "big business" railroad to "steal" or "grab" "their" trail and replace healthful exercise with "noisy and smelly" trains.
A detailed contract with a right of repurchase and provision for compensating the trail operators for improvements MAY cover the railroad legally. However, it achieves nothing politically. The railroad seeking to exercise that contractual right will be the bad guy; with the angry soccer moms, the local newspaper editor seeking a juicy headline, ... and with the county councillor who reads that newspaper and has to listen to the soccer moms protesting the "greedy railroad" in front of the county building. And that translates to strong media and political pressure upon the railroad to give up its plans, or upon the city/county/whoever to buy the trail outright under eminent domain and block rail restoration utterly.
Now don't get me wrong. I think rails-to-trails is a great solution for permanently and totally abandoned rail corridors, where no company or agency plans to restore rail service. But people who claim that rails-to-trails can preserve ROW for rail use in the future are just kidding themselves. Once the trail is in, any rail plans for the ROW may as well be on flash paper.
You better believe it!! In Anne Arundel County (south of Baltimore for those not familiar) the county govt purchased the right-of-way of the Baltimore and Annapolis Railroad south of Dorsey Road in the 1970's to preserve it for rail use. In the interim, they built a hiking-biking trail on the ROW. Now, fast forward to 2001. There is a strong proposal to extend the Light Rail to Glen Burnie proper first, then further south. Some even envision Annapolis as we reinvent the B&A again with LRV's. Guess what - there are already protests about the return to rail, despite the proven record of co-existance with Light Rail and hikers/bikers in more enlightened pats of the world.
Despite the protests, the original wording in the acquision law was "To Preserve the Right-of-Way for future rail use"
Stay tuned, this one may end up in the Maryland Court of Appeals.
Still a few bugs in SubTalk.
There are double posts, but I didn't hit "Post" twice. I previewed the message, noted I didn't properly close the HTML tags, corrected the HTML, previewed the correction, saw everything was correct. Then hit "Post Message" ONCE!. When the index reloaded, TWO POSTS - one incorrect with the corrected post right below it.
Are you sure you hit preview and not post.
I highly doubt that this is the same bug that took down Subtalk last week. It's a completely different function.
You better believe it!! In Anne Arundel County (south of Baltimore for those not familiar) the county govt purchased the right-of-way of the Baltimore and Annapolis Railroad south of Dorsey Road in the 1970's to preserve it for rail use. In the interim, they built a hiking-biking trail on the ROW. Now, fast forward to 2001. There is a strong proposal to extend the Light Rail to Glen Burnie proper first, then further south. Some even envision Annapolis as we reinvent the B&A again with LRV's. Guess what - there are already protests about the return to rail, despite the proven record of co-existance with Light Rail and hikers/bikers in more enlightened pats of the world.
Despite the protests, the original wording in the acquision law was "To Preserve the Right-of-Way for future rail use"
Stay tuned, this one may end up in the Maryland Court of Appeals.
I personally do not think that a bike/hike trail is an effective way to preserve a railroad bed. An effective way to preserve a railroad bed is to buy it and let it get overgrown with weeds until you're ready to lay tracks down.
Portland Oregon has the sense not to open up that can of worms. The old Oregon Electric grade between Milwaukie and Oregon City would be an excellent spot for a MAX line to OC. It would also be a great bike trail. But the pro-bike and the pro-transit people know how to work together there, and so in what is arguably one of the nation's most bike-friendly cities, the railroad grade is NOT being used as a bike trail. Why? Because it isn't fair to put in a trail, have it for a few years, and then take it away again.
[Because it isn't fair to put in a trail, have it for a few years, and then take it away again.]
Does anyone know of an instance ANYWHERE where rails have gone to trails, and then back to rails? Can't think of one.
Then there's always the Metro North approach. A few years ago, Conrail announced that it was going to sell off the Maybrook line, which runs from Connecticut into Putnam and Dutchess counties, NY. It connects the ends of Metro North's Hudson and Harlem lines with the Danbury branch of the New Haven line. Metro North went ahead and bought the Maybrook line despite having no plans to begin service. It pointed out that if it didn't buy the line, the right of way would soon be lost to development, making it impossible to start service at some future date if plans ever changed. Metro North therefore is "warehousing" the line just in case it may be used some day.
That's the way to do it. Just leave it abandoned until you're ready to build again...
First of all the Douglas "L" is already falling apart, especially near the Medical Center (Polk Street Station). At this point the "L" runs above a parking lot and underneath it is slung panels of corrugated steel to catch chunks of it that fall whenever a train passes by. I've got over 80lbs worth of the stuff in the form of hot bolts, flanges, and other debris I collected last summer. All of it now sits on a mantlepiece in my apartment in Baltimore (my Aunt Reba thinks I'm nuts). As to the Paulina Street Connection that runs past the United Center, a station there would make sense but only as a special shuttle that runs on game days only. Otherwise, there's not enough going on over there to make it worthwhile.
Eric Dale Smith
Well there isn't enough ridership to justify special train to the station 24/7, but if you hooked up the Douglas line to it and ran Douglas trains to Lake, there'd be enough ridership on the trains going THROUGH the station (that is, douglas trains) to operate service there.
A daylight trip downtown and onto the South Side for Douglas riders would be a waste of time and money, the O'Hare line has more ridership than the S. Side; better to route the Douglas trains there. UIC Halsted is also a high traffic destination station and a transfer to get there from the Douglas would be a real pain for many students. There is no need to max it out on the Congress either.
I don't know if there's enough room for a Medical Center Station directly above Congress is amendable with the existence the Loomis ramp. If not the whole plan as it stands today is a nonstarter.
I'm for Lake stations at Halsted and Damen or Western, Asbury/Dodge on Skokie and 18th or so on the Green Line might be cool too. Another good use of cash would be straightening those tight curves on the L.
Extending the red line to 130th strikes me as silly since Metra trains run parallel to the route, just send more trains and integrate fares. Easier said than done- I know...
I think the idea of rerouting the Douglas is certainly worth looking at. I've also long believed the Paulina Connector shoould be returned to revenue service to serve the United Center. I think the Paulina part could be demonstrated at first as follows: As a United Center Shuttle running between Racine/Congress (yes, I know there are some switching conflicts with that) and Asland/Lake or the Loop for game-goers. If successful, make that part of the regular schedule. If *very* successful, through-route with the Douglas.
I'm not sure about route the Douglas to the South Side. A simple Loop termination might make more sense.
Graham
One interesting thing that some SubTalkers may not realize about the proposal is that it would mark a return to a routing that actually was used by Douglas trains from about 1954-5 to 1958. During construction of the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway and its median rapid transit line, Garfield Park trains were relocated on temporary surface trackage along the south side of Van Buren Street. Since there was no practical way to connect that line to the Douglas "L," the present Paulina Connector arrangement was put in place: the ramp at Lake and Paulina, connecting to the already-existing Metropolitan "L" structure (which at that point had been out of revenue service for three or four years), and a new connection across Congress Street linking the Logan Square/Humboldt Park and Douglas Park legs of the Met. After its completion, Douglas trains accessed the Loop via Lake Street until completion of the Congress line in June 1958, at which time Douglas became a leg of the West-Northwest Route.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
yes, as a kid that was the configuration when I first rode those branches. Imagine a grade level Garfield line with the ambulance chasers of today.
Here's what happened: Due to various construction projects, Northbound trains had to use the southbound track from Prince's Bay to Great Kills, and from Tompkinsville to St. George. Northbound trains switched to the southbound north of Prince's Bay, and just south of Great Kills reversed to use the switch to get back to the correct track. The conductor operated the train while going backward. The northbound trains got very close to the waiting southbound trains in the station at Great Kills before the northbound reversed and switched off. North of Tompkinsville trains switched to the souhbound track again, and pulled into one of the higher number tracks. For some reason one train had to pull into the turning wye (North Shore line) and reverse to get to/from the platform!
Who was operating the HO switches.
Oh yeah, I forgot. About 15 guys in orange vests crammed in the little wooden building ran out every time a train came, and one guy flipped a switch while another filled out a form and a third said something on the radio. The other 12 watched.
LOL, 12 featherbedders!
They were filling out the Form-D and passing the Batton. The conductor did not move the train backwards. SIR the operator can put his Key in reverse and move the train backwards without changing position. The conductor guided the T/O for the backwards move.
I've been on the SIR when they overshoot the stop, and just backup.
Actually, when they're doing reverse moves, which was due to signal work this weekend, they have a motorman board the opposite end of the train to run it backwards. Indeed, when they do blow a stop, the motorman will just pop it into reverse.
-Hank
That must've created serious delays. I guess trains can get very close together on SIRT because there isn't much of a signal system and no tripping system in place.
---Qtraindash7----is also at aol.com----->
There is no signal system for reverse moves. The signal system works fine for normal traffic flow. Why do you need trip arms?
The reason for the 15 vested people is the reverse move onto the opposite track is governed by passing a batton and Form D with approval of the Dispatcher in Tower B. No body can enter the single track section without the batton and the form.
Not on a weekend wih trains running every half hour.
--Mark
Not on a weekend with trains running every half hour.
--Mark
Actually, there were delays. Trains arrived at Tottenville 5-10 minutes late (no big deal) and at St. George 5-15 minutes late (big deal - 29 minutes till next boat?! DAMN!). No one who got off at Tompkinsville (to avoid paying fare) all weekend could possibly catch the ferry in time. There just was no backup of trains. The time for a round trip was not increased enough to warrant putting another train on the line (only four trains run the entire route on weekends - Sundays only 8 SIR cars total are in use), which ended up with some close calls at St. George for departing on time.
-- And no, they don't hold ferries, especially with 2 boats running at half hour intervals on a route that takes 25 minutes to run and 6 minutes to load/unload (yes, sometimes departures get incredibly off schedule this way).
The train on the wye was OOS, since there are no passenger-usable platforms past track 10, which is the tail of the wye. Since they installed the new switches, they usually haven't reversed through the switches. The crossovers you used were Huguenot and Great Kills, or HUX and GKX on the Form D. Past tompkinsville, you're in the terminal area, so you were switched over to the track neccesary to put you anywhere between tracks 4 and 9. They're doing construction work in the St. George tunnel.
-Hank
Need help on that question.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The cars were built by the Budd Co. (Philly), the same ones who built the first Amtrak Metroliner MU sets and the R-32 Brightliners for the TA. They began service in 1960.
Sorry - when I said Amtrak I meant Penn Central. The Penn Central Railroad began Metroliner service using Budd sets in 1969.
While they never saw service as such, the first half dozen Metroliner cars were actually delivered with PENNSYLVANIA KEYSTONES!!!! I didn't realize it until I looked at some slides someone gave me years ago, sure enough tere were keystones on them. The test program was just beginning, and by the time they got around to actually using the cars in service, the Penn Central merger had taken place, so in service cars all had PC worms.
Really? Wow - so itwas the Pennsy's management that thought up the Metroliner Concept, and the New York Central's which inherited it...
Pensy management was in charge of the PC so it was a Pensy project all the way.
When Acela was introduced, I wrote to Amtrak suggesting that:
a Then/Now photo be taken of a Budd in PC livery next to an Acela be taken, in honor of the 30th Anniversary of the Metroline; and that the Pennsy and Budd Co. managers who originated the concept and built the original Metroliner MU's be honored for their contribution to railroading and to its riders. I was told, politely, no to the first idea. I don't know what, if anything, they did on the second. I didn't see anything on Amtrak's website. I think those folks deserved recognition.
au contraire, it was the DOT which pushed the project paid for the research including the 4 Pioneer III's which they hotrodded as test beds for the design. DOT 1-4 were ordered 1965 and delivered in 1966. By the time the test units were received, the first lot of production cars were ordered, although delivery/acceptance was delayed to Dec 1968 for the first units. Revenue service begab in January 1969 with a southbound AM departure from Penn and an afternoon return. The times roughly mimicked the Morning/Afternoon Congressional time slots. Parlor service on the Metroliner included OJay and a pastry. The 'genuine' Metroliners had digital speedometers in each cab. I was jazzed to see the "124" in the rear cab aswe headed south.
And, the origional Metroliner was a major disaster from the beginning. Shortly after introduction, they were limited to 125mph max due to motor problems, the Westinghouse equipped (Thyristor control) cars were didn't work, the GE ones weren't much better. The ride was lousey (despite the high weight of the cars), and I believe at least one set decoupled in service, at speed.
There were a few variations on pantographs, equipment locations, etc, and the fleet was rebuilt at least once.
From what I understand, they were decently fast when they ran, but they didn't run often.
I'm not surprised Amtrak would want to sweep the history of the cars under the rug. I don't think anyone at the FRA or the US DOT really likes discussing them.
The name of the train lasted longer than the equipment itself.
I believe the PRR/PC wasn't exactly estatic about the whole idea, and that could explain it's lack of sucess too.
Of course, had the Metroliner never happened, the NEC probbably would have been dewired long ago, and Amtrak non existant.
<whole idea, and that could explain it's lack of sucess
too.
Of course, had the Metroliner never happened, the NEC
probbably would have been dewired long ago, and
Amtrak non existant. >>
Yes, it is my recollection that PRR was dragged kicking and screaming, and their mechanical people insisted on modifications which doomed the cars. And, yes they were not a stunning success mechanically, but in fact they sparked the public imagination, and indeed saved the NEC. The PRR had so assidously chased away passengers that the RR share of the market was shrinking against the Eastern Shuttles. Metroliner vrought them back and even before ass_ella the train was back on top. If they can pull off the same victory in the Boston segment, that will be neat.
/*Yes, it is my recollection that PRR was dragged kicking and screaming, and their mechanical people insisted on modifications which doomed the cars.*/
Out of morbid curiosity, what were the modifications done? It seems that part of the problem with the cars was the 150mph top speed, which was achived in a car that, IIRC, was >150,000 in weight. This wasn't going to work, needless to say. Lack of body mounted motors, etc, probbably killed it too. IMHO, the M-1/2 design would have been MUCH more suited, at least bodywise for a high speed trainset, on account of it's light weight (even the M-2s are pretty light)
/* And, yes they were not a stunning success mechanically, but in fact they sparked the public imagination, and indeed saved the NEC.*/
The fact that they reversed a decline in ridership, and caused a lot of excitement, even though they were effectively a failure, seems to poke BIG holes in the old 'the National (defense) Interstate Highway System killed the railroads' story.
/*The PRR had so assidously chased away passengers that the RR share of the market was shrinking against the Eastern Shuttles.*/
Lest we also forget the MP-54s? If your daily exposure to trains is a 20's vintage, bouncy, noisy, smelly, dirty, and slow train car, with no aircoonditioning and almost no hea or light, would you be willing to take a cross country or intercity train?
/*Metroliner vrought them back and even before ass_ella the train was back on top.*/
True, the Metroliner started it, but it was the Amfleets and the AEM-7s that established the NY to DC service as something decent and reliable.
I know Jersey Mike will go bonkers when I say this, but the AEM-7 is really a worthy sucessor to the GG-1.
/* If they can pull off the same victory in the Boston segment, that will be neat. */
Yeah, but I'm waiting for history to start repeating itself. Call me Mr Cynic :)
I know Jersey Mike will go bonkers when I say this, but the AEM-7 is really a worthy sucessor to the GG-1.
I have no problem w/ the AEM-7's seeing that GG-1 technology was lost to the ages and they are the best modern equilivent. Also since Amtrak dosen't really handle 18-25 car trains much anymore they don't really need a GG-1 sized motor.
actually, history repeats far too often with precious little advance in understanding on the mass scale--see histories of the institution of state and Federal regulatory ahencies, think long-haul short haul abuse, envision that the Standard Oil co is back to three pieces--care to take a pool on how long before its obe?
more directly on topic. My understanding is that the PRR people insisted on the outside bearing trucks under the 'liners rather than the BUDD Ptoneer III trucks such as the silverliners had. We all know that the Westinghouse cars were losers, OTOH wgen they ran it was good, and certainly an improvement over the deteriorating service on the regular trains. It is al;so likely that as with any 'new' hardware the 'beta' product is never really 'ready for primetime'. As to AEM-7's they are cearly a winner. However I harbor a personal preference for EMU's--its my childhood experience of IC, CSS&SB, and CNSM. Rarely sampled MP54's--when I did I was underwhelmed--great WWI era cars but way obsolete!
Interstate highways DID hekp kill the passenger train, but they had help. We could spend the best part of a week detailing this, but I will simply say that expecting any form of 'passenger transport' to honestly 'pay its own way' is a shibboleth. It is the great economist's game of which costs do I leave out of the calculations in order to cook the books. Again many hours. Suffice it to a that as a then 24 year old riding the first revenue run I was having a ball.
/*My understanding is that the PRR people insisted on the outside bearing trucks under the 'liners rather than the BUDD Ptoneer III trucks such as the silverliners had.*/
Argh!!! Actually, lots of HS lines use outboard bearing, but theyr'e fabricated, and designed for the tsk. Not an off the shelf truck like the Metroliners had.
/* We all know that the Westinghouse cars were losers, OTOH wgen they ran it was good, and certainly an improvement over the deteriorating service on the regular trains.*/
It seems this was more due to Westinghouse's insistance on "advanced" SCR technology, as opposed to the "old fashioned" ignitron (read: tube) system GE used. This being the "space age", why use a technology that was "old fashioned". Of course, SCRs were barely ready for prime time in the 60's.
/*It is al;so likely that as with any 'new' hardware the 'beta' product is never really 'ready for primetime'.*/
True. Which is all the more disturbing as to why Amtrak didn't insist on a protptype for what's effectively a ground-up, brand new design (Acela express).
/* As to AEM-7's they are cearly a winner.*/
Not a surprise. They're effectively an ASEA RC-4, assembled by EMD. Nothing works like duplicating a proven design. Note the HHP-8 is brand new, but NJ is taking the (imho) smart route with the ALP-46 - it's based off an existing, proven German locomotive.
It's not like electric locomotives are new. Makes sense to copy a proven design. Why not let Europe test and debug them for us?
However I harbor a personal preference for EMU's--its my childhood experience of IC, CSS&SB, and CNSM. Rarely sampled MP54's--when I did I was underwhelmed--great WWI era cars but way obsolete! */
but NJ is taking the (imho) smart route with the ALP-46 - it's based off an existing, proven German locomotive.
I thought they were coppying a French design, that BB3600 or something.
I'm sick of all these euro designs. I want to see an electric with a HOOD!
The HHP-8 is a cousin to a French design that, IIRC, was in development at the time Amtrak placed the order.
Interestingly, the AEM-7ACs are supposedly the first locomotives in the *world* to use IGBT inverters on them (as opposed to GTO).
The ALP-46 is based off the BD's class 101, I believe. I'm not sure what the propulsion technology is, or if it has body mounted traction motors, which believe the AEM-7 / ALP-44s have. I'm pretty certai it's GTO thyristor. IGBT is really new, but quickly becomming standard for everything. Hell, Radio Shack even sells an IGBT module that can run a 10 or 20 hp motor. It's $65 and the size of a stack of playing cards. Features braking, etc. I'm guessing within 10 years, a 500 hp motor controller will be the size of a milk crate. The whole thing.
As an aside - I've heard the M-7s are rated *1000* hp per *car*. For a train car that has to by contract weight less than 130,000 lbs - this should be quite a fun thing if they really do perform at that level. of course, with modern AC propulsion systems, I'd assume that you can litterally dial any HP rating you want within the capacity of the system.
I'm surprised anyone even bothers with DC anymore. AC propulsion makes DC systems look like a joke.
I miss straight AC systems like the GG1, P5, L6, B1, FF1 and every other PRR AC electric had excluding the E-44. AC-->AC No inverters, no nut'in.
E-44's all AC I think not. I believe they had rectifiers on board and used GE 752 (DC)traction motors mounted in trucks very similar to what were used under the first U-25C's
I said EXcluding the E-44.
/*My understanding is that the PRR people insisted on the outside bearing trucks under the 'liners rather than the BUDD Ptoneer III trucks such as the silverliners had.*/
Argh!!! Actually, lots of HS lines use outboard bearing, but theyr'e fabricated, and designed for the tsk. Not an off the shelf truck like the Metroliners had.
/* We all know that the Westinghouse cars were losers, OTOH wgen they ran it was good, and certainly an improvement over the deteriorating service on the regular trains.*/
It seems this was more due to Westinghouse's insistance on "advanced" SCR technology, as opposed to the "old fashioned" ignitron (read: tube) system GE used. This being the "space age", why use a technology that was "old fashioned". Of course, SCRs were barely ready for prime time in the 60's.
/*It is al;so likely that as with any 'new' hardware the 'beta' product is never really 'ready for primetime'.*/
True. Which is all the more disturbing as to why Amtrak didn't insist on a protptype for what's effectively a ground-up, brand new design (Acela express).
/* As to AEM-7's they are cearly a winner.*/
Not a surprise. They're effectively an ASEA RC-4, assembled by EMD. Nothing works like duplicating a proven design. Note the HHP-8 is brand new, but NJ is taking the (imho) smart route with the ALP-46 - it's based off an existing, proven German locomotive.
It's not like electric locomotives are new. Makes sense to copy a proven design. Why not let Europe test and debug them for us?
/* However I harbor a personal preference for EMU's*/
Me too.
/*--its my childhood experience of IC, CSS&SB, and CNSM. Rarely sampled MP54's--when I did I was underwhelmed--great WWI era cars but way obsolete! */
Heh. The PRR's MP-54s were horrible, at best, by even 50's standards. So were the LIRR's.
off the shelf when you want reliable, but radical vendors when you want innvation. Remember, Budd was once an upstart, so EMD. Lima was the steam builder with brains(say BERKSHIRE!). Too bad we don't have any builder of that caliber today.
BTW if you disliked MP 54's did you ever endure the Reading heavyweights? I commuted on those dregs from the Germantown area into Center City for several months. yuck. The BUDD's were a welcome change.
The Reading cars were called "Blueliners" and they appeared to have a very interesting truck design. Several are in excusrion service w/ the R&N near Mach Chunk PA.
technically those were only the few rehabbed air conditioned cars. the remainder were still in green in '65 when I lived there.
...I believe at least one set decoupled in service, at speed.
As I recall from newspaper reports at the time, it uncoupled between the 4th and 5th cars; the first 4 cars went 5 miles before stopping and the last 2 went 3 miles.
Since when is 125mph "lousy?" It was certainly not lousy in 1969 - in fact at 110 mph the schedule was quite respectable even compared to Japan's Shinkansen.
I'll concede the other problems you mentioned. But I highly doubt that this was something DOT shoved down Pennsy's throat. Maybe you remember the critics at Pennsy more than the project's supporters. The critics, obviously, looking back on it, were wrong.
1965, PRR long distance train--The General--all reserved seat train--the coaches--cars built for the NY-Wash line with minimal recline, advertising posters on the bulkheads, widows not aligned to seats. (these were rebuilt sleepers with no window change)
This at a time when most long distance trains were shorter, so long distance cocahes built for this train in the post war era should have been available. Not as vicious as SP, but anti-passenger for sure.
I'll agree that the coach design was suboptimal - but remember where we're coming from. This is Subtalk, and we tend to "micro-criticize." That's OK, but it's a long stretch from there to say that the Pennsy didn't want the Metroliner. The scenario which makes more sense is, that management did want it, but there were plenty of critics and complicating politics, and with the railroad having other problems (including an upcoming merger) the Metroliner was not the unanimous favorite in the boardroom. There was plenty of acrimony, to be sure.
I believe the Metroliners started testing in '67-'68 and may have actually entered service prior to the formation of PC. Also, there was some thought to using a few of the trainsets on the Phila-Harrisburg service, but this didn't happen and Silverliner III's outfitted with 2-2 seating took over this service instead.
"Also, there was some thought to using a few of the trainsets on the Phila-Harrisburg service, but this didn't happen and Silverliner III's outfitted with 2-2 seating took over this service instead. "
This occurred as Amtrak introduced Amfleet style pulled coaches.
I think it was a little earlier. I recall riding on the S-III's on this line in '72-'73. The Amfleet didn't hit the tracks until after that, to the best of my knowledge.
Thank You Ron!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
i belive that the m3 was built in between 1959-1960
and they was built by budd co.
OK - we all know NYC Transit is short of subway cars. Not a controversy. Fine.
But we also know that the IRT and IND/BMT stocks must be replenished separately.
Is it fair to say that the IRT is in better shape - that the arriving R-142's will probably take care of any shortages?
The recent controversy over the G cutbacks have pointed to significant shortages on the IND and BMT subway cars. But the press has not separated the two divisions (A Div vs. B Division).
So, guys, how many B Division cars do you think we need now? How many if we anticipate full Manhattan Bridge Service in 2004? How many more if we count the first operating Second Av segment (the "Stubway")? I'm interested in your opinions.
The 212 R-143's arriving should cover the shortages created by the Manhattan Bridge re-routes and the 63rd st connector.
For the second av. 'stubway', I would think that you'd only need roughly 150 more cars. You can figure that the line would connect to Broadway. If it does connect to Broadway, You can operate the Q up to 125th/2nd av. through 63rd. st tunnel. Then, it will still manage to reach the East Side station at 14th st, where a lot of people already exit the 4,5,6 trains.
Is it fair to say that the IRT is in better shape - that the arriving R-142's will probably take care of any shortages?
It is not fair to say that the IRT is or will be in good shape, relative to the task that it is required of it. The East Side and West Side locals each need an additional 10 tph for 20 trainsets. The East and West Side express service each need an additional 5 tph (up and downtown) for another 20 trainsets. The Flushing Line needs an additionalo 6 tph. That's an additional 466 cars just to get back to 1964 service levels of 30 tph (36 tph #7). Add a 20% spares factor and this brings the total up to 558 cars.
What about expanded service - 35 tph on the Lex and West Side. That's an additional 240 cars with spares. So, for a reasonably conservative demand the there will be a shortage of 798 cars, or half the number of Redbirds they plan to scuttle.
So what you're saying is the MTA should purchase just as many new IRT cars as they would for the IND/BMT?
I'm sorry. I have not yet evaluated the requirements for Division B.
I'm proceeding along the following lines: 1. evaluate the shortages for each division individually; 2. compare these results to one another.
One problem is that levels of service are not defined. I'm assuming that this should be 30 tph where current demand dictates such service, based on historical precedent. I'm also allowing for two decades' growth thereafter. I am then figuring out how many cars additional cars are required to provide such service.
The ultimate goal is to achieve a maximum load level of 80% or a minimum of 5 sq feet per passenger. Can you suggest a different criterion?
This is assuming that you NEED all these extra cars. While these look good in THEORY, in reality, they aren't necessary. The IRT is in fine shape, unlike the IND/BMT, which is about to have the thinnest spare fleet ever seen this side of the Galaxy. You want to return service levels to the 1964 levels, which is highly impractical.
Now, realistically:
The East and West side locals could use a boost in service. But 10 train sets each? More like 10 combined, for an extra 100 cars. Then, the East side express. I don't know how many tph it can support, but adding another 5tph in each direction is ridiculous. It's congested as it is. Scrap that idea, it's not possible. The West Side. Granted, it could use a boost in service. But, 5tph in each direction? This is overkill. Middays, 2 and 3 trains run empty. So are you going to order 100 cars for rush hours only? Nope. The order for R-142's supposed to come up with something like 40 extra cars? So, run them on the 2 line. And, the whole 'spare fleet' policy is somewhat shaky to me. When the TA has a good maintenence plan, they always have some spare fleet cars just sitting around. Why not run these rush hours as 'extras'. They're just sitting there.
I don't know about the 7, and I'm not going to pretend to.
Expanded service would be nice, but it is unnecessary. The post was "Subway Cars Shortages", not "How to get seats on every subway train". The IRT has enough cars to fulfill current service needs. The IND/BMT is the division with the shortage. By your method of reasoning:
The 63rd/Manhattan connector shortages will require roughly 500 cars to fix (for continued service on West End/Bowery, G continues to 71st/Continental, V has 12-15tph, F has the same # of trains as before, V runs to Church.). Then there are a host of other things. C service improved, so that you can run it to Rockaway Park during Weekdays & expand it to 10 cars. Expanded Service on West End and Brighton Lines. It keeps going. then you'd have a need for something like 1,100 cars, and this is just the beginning of the problems.
Not saying I wouldn't appreciate expanded service, I would. But, Let's try to be realistic about service patterns on NYCT, which will always have places for expansion.
Expanded service would be nice, but it is unnecessary. The post was "Subway Cars Shortages", not "How to get seats on every subway train"
I had not realized that some people consider "seat" a four letter word. :-)
I think there has to be a definition of what constitutes adequate service - expressed in terms of waiting time, travel time and floor space. How to acheive these objectives becomes more obvious, once these criteria are defined.
the IND/BMT, which is about to have the thinnest spare fleet ever seen this side of the Galaxy.
Actually, if you look at the FRA database, you'll find some monorail system that is working on 0% spares. The NYCT rail system is woking on 17% spares, which is about the same as the LIRR.
When the TA has a good maintenence plan, they always have some spare fleet cars just sitting around.
The TA's maintenance/procurement plans are killing spares.
I would suggest that 20% would be a more desirable number, considering the effect of the blind cars on the R142's and R143's.
So are you going to order 100 cars for rush hours only?
This is one of mass transit's pitfalls. There is no getting around it. However, NYC has less pronounced peak use than other systems in this country. The TA must provide service, when and where their customers desire it. The TA would turn into a welfare program for its employees, if it did not so respond.
I'm going to assume you are reporting the use of a 0% spare plan, not endorsing it.
20% spares sounds fair. Now, correct me here if I'm wrong, but the R-32 car is now the oldest car in the IND/BMT fleet, right? With decent overhauls and decent maintenance, not counting the odd crash etc., we can go at least another five years without retiring any equipment, while adding the 143's. - would you agree?
I'm going to assume you are reporting the use of a 0% spare plan, not endorsing it.
I was just reporting. Spares and other redundant parts are required for service availability.
20% spares sounds fair.
I don't know whether it is fair or not. The number of spares is dictated by the mean time to failure (MTTF) and mean time to repair (MTTR). The increased use of semi-permanently connected or dedicated car sets generally means that fewer trains will be available for service. The decreases shown by NYCT in their MTTF figures do not yet compensate for removing multiple cars, when only one has a problem. I don't think it ever will. I don't have enough information to determine what the minimum number of spares should be. I do know that NYCT maintenance policies are not designed to reduce this number.
Now, correct me here if I'm wrong, but the R-32 car is now the oldest car in the IND/BMT fleet, right? With decent overhauls and decent maintenance, not counting the odd crash etc., we can go at least another five years without retiring any equipment, while adding the 143's. - would you agree?
Various contributors have indicated that the primary failure mode for older cars is body rust. The R-32's are completely stainless and do not significantly suffer from this affliction. The R38's, R40's, R42's use stainless for their outer shell but not their load carrying structural members. These are the parts that are supposedly showing deterioration. Replacing these members - i.e. rebuilding the car bodies - is not cost effective. These series and not the older R-32's are being eyed for replacement.
So are you going to order 100 cars for rush hours only?
This is one of mass transit's pitfalls. There is no getting around it. However, NYC has less pronounced peak use than other systems in this country.
Very true. Much of MTA New York City Subway's ridership increase is occurring during off peak hours.
--Mark
The East and West side locals could use a boost in service. But 10 train sets each? More like 10 combined, for an extra 100 cars.
The 1/9 needs double its current rush hour service south of 96th Street. Stand on the uptown platform at 72nd from 5 to 6 pm any weekday and afterwards see if you can tell me otherwise.
I can't speak for the 6.
[You want to return service levels to the 1964 levels, which is highly impractical.]
In a word, why?
"C service improved, so that you can run it to Rockaway Park during Weekdays & expand it to 10 cars."
Does the C really needs 10 cars? What I can see about this line, it runs way below compacity.
N Broadway Local
Ever ride the C through Lower Manhattan at 3-5 PM??? It's fine between 168th and 42nd, and its fine between Hoyt and Euclid, but between 42nd and Hoyt, crowds jumping on at every stop, especially Chambers and Bway Nassau, and the A running at not that hot headways, the C can become a mess, and you can see the people standing at the front of the platform packed and sandwiched next to each other only to find out they have to push their way to the "8" to get on their train. The fact that it is the only Fulton St local from Lower Manhattan or from anywhere doesn't help either. Other than the honorable mention Brighton line, the C is needed for the areas it goes through. 10 cars wouldn't be a waste.
Most of the incoming R-142s are for replacement of the redbirds.
We can't go crazy over Lexington Ave, if the 2nd Ave subway gets going, the cars that the TA has in store for it will certainly help out Lexington so rapid increase in service on Lex is not so necessary yet.
We can't go crazy over Lexington Ave,
I thought I covered all the IRT lines. I do thing that the number of cars assigned to the 42nd St Shuttle is adequate.
if the 2nd Ave subway gets going,
You missed April Fool's by one day :-)
Once again my film came back and I have some current interest photos to share with you all. Please comment! I would like to improve my photography skills. These photos are dated Mar 10->Mar 23.
First I paid a little visit to Winslow Jct. where I caught an NJ Atlantic City train racing through SOUTH WINS interlocking.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_4210.jpg
And here is cab car 5162 clearing the plant.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_5162.jpg
After that I took a nice pic of the rear of Winslow Tower
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Winslow-rear.jpg
And you all know the story, when I got back to my car the distributor cap was cracked so I fixed it with masking tape. Here's the photo of the repaired and running engine.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/302-fix.jpg
Two weeks later I was at the Utica Ave. crossing in Westmont NJ where I took a picture of SOUTH RACE interlocking.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/SOUTH-RACE.jpg
And what is the BEST shot of the lot, NJT cab car 5162 (again!), roaring through the crossing.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_5162-SR.jpg
When I went back to school on the 23rd I stopped by Meriden CT and snagged these two shots of Amtrak's Vermonter.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Amt_287.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Amt_287v.jpg
I then went and documened QUARRY interlocking and this cute dawrf signal.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/QUARRY3.jpg
And who said railfanning is just about trains. Here is a pair of swans floating in a nearby lake.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Swans.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Swans2.jpg
Don't let the white fluffyness fool you. Swans are mean, nasty, about the size of small dog and prone to attacking people who piss them off.
Mike, As far as the shots are concerned, I think they are fine, but notice the difference in the one on a sunny day ... that's a keeper.
[Don't let the white fluffyness fool you. Swans are mean, nasty, about the size of small dog and prone to attacking people who piss them off.]
In the Spring when the "Great Swans" have chicks is when you need to give them a wide birth. I use to do a cannoe trip on the Peconic River (LI Suffolk) with my kids every year (we played steel the flag ... lot of splashing & tip overs). There are a lot of those swans in that river & it's ponds. We learned to leave them alone.
Mr t__:^)
I can hear the Swan Theme from Swan Lake right about now.:-)
Someone on another list pointed out that a swan's wing is powerful enough to break a human leg.
BTW I know that sunshine is much better for photos, but the weather is always trying to spite me. Shortly before I got to Meriden to take those pics it started to rain!
Well the big day is close at hand, The all important signal test. The if you don't pass your out on your ass Signal Test. The you must get a 100 or your out like yesterdays trash Signal Test. Well wish us luck if you like if not we'll do our best anyway.
Here's wishing you guys luck - just remember to keep your one shots and two shots clear, don't forget your gap filler flags and watch out for reps ... chances are by now, it's all been drummed into your head to the point where you'll screw up writing down your name. :)
May your test be a nice happy AK ...
One shots and two shots?
Timers ... while not quite the official school car sheets, there's some on it right here ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/light.html
Mind ya, I've been out of the system since 1971 ... that's what we knew them as ...
Thanks yeah school car doesn't teach that. Its good to know thanks again
No problem ... and if they didn't teach it, then it may not be on the test. Funny how what's spoon fed tends to be only that which will be on the test. Also bear in mind that I've been out of the "ta" for precisely 30.0 years as of this month. I'm sure those GT's are still in the system though, and I'm certain they warned you about those flashing lunars which tell you that there's a tripper ahead with your name on it. :)
yeah they teach us about the grade time but they never told us they called them one shot or two shot
Yeah, basically in the old days, the two shot told you that you still had time to get to speed limit at this one but that the NEXT one you had better be at it or PSSSSSSSSSssssst ... essentially, this one will clear but the next one won't.
One Shot, Two Shot is simple slang that has come around as more and more GT's are put in. One shot is plain and simple, you blow the speed restriction on a one shot, hang up your handle.
Heh ... knowing your "two'fers" was the big magic in my time on the railroad ... after all, they didn't have Depends back then. :)
Let's see if I can do it from memory.
| or G or G/R or G/R/R or G/G or G/ = clear
/ or Y or Y/R or Y/R/R = approach
*/* or *Y* or *Y*/R or *Y*/R/R = advance approach
-- or R or R/R or R/R/R = Stop
-- over . or (-- or R or R/R or R/R/R w/ number plate) = Stop and proceed
-- over | or R/G or R/G/R = Medium clear
-- over *|* or -- over | with yellow triangle or R/*G* or R/*G*/R = Limited clear
dawrf | or G dwarf or R/R/G = Slow Clear
/ over | or Y/G or Y/G/R = Approach Medium
/ over *|* or / over | w/ yellow triangle or Y/*G* or Y/*G*/R = Approach Limited
/ over / or Y/Y or Y/Y/R or Y/R/G = Approach Slow
-- over / or dwarf / or dwarf *Y* or R/Y/R = Slow Approach
-- over */* or R/*Y* or R/*Y*/R = Medium Approach
R/Y/G = Medium Approach Medium
\ = Caution or Approach Restricting
-- over \ or dwarf \ or LW or R/Y or R/R/Y or dwarf Y or R/LW or R/R/LW = Restricting
G marker = freight trains treat Stop and Proceed as Restricting
Ok, how did I do?
Looks like you got them all right to me! Not that I have a clue as to what they mean.
Yeah he got me lost too
Don't worry about the signal test, you'll pass them all.
Just remember that the four main colors that you'll see is Red, Yellow, Green and Brown. But you'll only have Brown after you pass a Red.
Or especially after passing a white...
Or especially after passing a.. uh... what did that signal say again?!?!
Brown hmmm where do I find that one?
It usually coincides with the train dumping and your hand still on power and brake handle still on full release. When you hit a brown, you'll see the steam rise. :)
The train won't be the only thing dumping....:-)
Heh. Yep, hit the brown signal and nobody's your friend for the rest of the day. At least.
Mustang, you pass a red, you see BROWN when you look at your underwear. Get it?
Got it
Hahahaha ... I always wondered why so many of my fellow MM's wore brown pants ... hides it better. :P
It's easier to understand with the gif's:
Proceed on main route, next signal is clear
Proceed on main route prepared to stop at next signal
Proceed on diverging route expected next signal to be clear
proceed on diverging route prepared to stop at next signal
Yard indication signal (for yard leads, layup track/sidings, and sometines for second diverging route, esp. to wrong rail moves. Instructions are "Restricted speed and extreme caution"-- operate no more than 10mph, prepared to make immediate stop, within half range of vision, or two car lengths from an obstruction or unsafe condition, and to watch the rails and switches (since it isn't always telling you the exact lineup.
Stop, operate manual stop arm lever, make sure arm goes down and stays, proceed with restricted speed and extreme caution
Receive permission, then operate manual lever and follow rest of call on instructions. Don't let this one trip you up. I keep forgetting and thinking "Key By". It is often called "Key By" (check the gif's address), and especially with the "K", but it is not the same thing. It is basically a "call on" for an automatic signal
No permission needed to key by. But still restricted speed & extreme caution.
Approach at allowable (posted) speed and the next signal will clear ("two shot")
Approach at posted speed and this signal will clear ("one shot")
(BTW, "one shot" and "two shot" weren't taught my class either. I heard them first from some other old-time motormen.)
Nice touch! And I'm amused to rate as an "old timer" but yeah, reality has this way of hitting ya like the kiss at the end of a hot wet fist sometimes. :)
No no, you got it all wrong.
The first signal is CLEAR (NYC Style): Proceed not exceeding Normal Speed
then Approach Medium: Proceed approaching next signal at medium speed.
The next signal dosen't exist.
then Approach Slow: Proceed approaching next signal at slow speed.
the three yellows thing dosen't exist either
R/R/Y is Restricting: proceed at restricted speed
It's all clearly spelled out in the NORAC handbook.
Which railroad are you referring to? What is NORAC?
Northeast Operating Rules Adivsory Committe everybody is a member except the LIRR and possibly the PATH.
NYCTA isn't a member either. When I first got out of the city and onto other railroads, first thing I learned was everything I knew was wrong. :)
But the rules do work outside of NYC and environs ...
The NYCTA isn't an FRA railroad wither. That's the joke I've been making. I wanted to see how long it would take someone to notice.
Don't mind me ... CRI dump in progress ... love those "high rails" you send ... yeah, didn't want to confuse Mustang any further by leaping into that. I remember the shakes I had when I was up for the signal test 30 years ago though the first day in the railroad alone was the biggest dose of megashakes I had. Didn't want to confuse him even further. That "motorinstructor" site does have the right info TA employees need, quite impressive actually. I remember school car with all the stupid cardboard signals that could really have used some fresh paint at the time. Looked like they'd been in storage in a wheel trueing shop for 20 years or more. Had more rust than the sides of an R1 obscuring them. :)
I actually missed a few. I need to bone up on my dwarf signals.
Here's what I got wrong:
darwf *G*/R or dwarf *G* = Limited Clear
dwarf G/*R* = Medium Clear
dwarf Y/*R* = Medium Approach
R/Y/R = Med Approach not Slow Approach
R/R/*Y* or dwarf Y/R = Slow Approach
dwarf G/R = Slow Clear
Y/ = approach
R/ = Stop
R/ w/ numbers = Stop and Proceed
Um.........yeah. I knew that you got those wrong but I didn't wanna say anything.
Here's another one:
dwarf toss/Grrrrr/*?*=Medium Stop
Heh. Are they still using semaphors on the west end?
Has anyone taken this test in the pass 6 months?
I was in the first class to take it. I think it's 25 ?'s, 20 multiple choice 5 fill in.
When did you take it and do you remember the five write outs?
Alright, enough knocking the J line.
Buses can't come near to the service requirements for the Area of Queens that the J serves. It still sees a great deal of rush hour service. The stops might be close together. But, Who cares? The Skip-stop service and the peak direction express service rectify these problems. Middays, there's not a ton of service on these lines. So, no need for express service. And, It gets more riders than the G. Just reducing the G has driven people mad. Eliminating the J/Z? Nah. That line is 'priceless'
The J is pretty bad. I have taken it two too many times. Even during rush hour the wait is hideous. For example, a few years ago, I was at Fulton and there was some sort of delay on the 4 and 5 heading uptown. I was heading to 77th so I decided to take the J to Chambers and change for the 6 there. So I go over and wait, and wait, and wait some more. Finally, after about 10 minutes, a train comes in. All this to go one station. It was the beginning of rush hour so there was no M from Brooklyn or Z at that time.
The other time, I was faced with waits of about 15 minutes on the J.
You still call the J the best line? Never comes and its slow. In fact, if you could run a hippo on that line, they would probably take forever to go from Fulton to Chambers.
It comes, but it's SO GOSH DARN INFREQUENT!
My point exactly.
It runs at 10 minute intervals during the weekday periods, which is what every other line runs at except the 4, 6, 7 and E/F.
Perfectly adequate.
The 1, 2, and 3 all run more frequently than that.
The 1 does, but the 2 and 3 run every ten minutes during the midday hours.
And as of now, 24 minute wait as long as it's not rush hours with no M Train.
That's because of the weekday Williamsburg Bridge GO in effect between 10am and 3pm.
The J's run between Jamaica Ctr. and Eastern Pkwy. with 12 minute intervals, and 24 minute intervals to Broad St.
The M's operate in shuttle service during this time.
And what is this GO about, didn't see any workmen!
Arti
The DOT project on the bridge that has torn up the north end of the bridge is the culprit. There is no "track work" per se.
How does that limit the train capacity?
Arti
I think it obstructs on one of the tracks.
Workmen are working very close to the ROW near the portal just before the line goes underground at Essex St. Trains must run slow during the work, and having 12 TPH (normal midday J/M service) would grind work to a near halt.
So they have to go so far as to reduce service to 2.5 tph? That's nearly a fivefold reduction in service!
I think they're using only a single track across the bridge, using the Brooklyn bound track for 2-way operation. The construction is taking place alonside the Manhattan bound track. It takes about 10 minutes to go from Hewes St Brooklyn across the bridge to Essex St Manhattan (and therefore 20 minutes round trip). They probably added 4 more minutes to allow for lateness, etc.
So let's tear it down, and run buses, getting people where they want to go FASTER.
Arti
Barring a GO, a wait for a J train will only exceed 10 minutes during nights and Sundays. The J/Z, during the rush hour, runs 16 TPH, which is perfectly adequate.
My printed schedule, several years old, says there at best 10 an hour, never closer than 6 minues apart, and I know they have spread some of those intervals to 7 minutes to save a train set, and will take another off this summer.
When the Z is running, both J and Z trains run at 7.5 minute intervals in the peak direction.
The subway timetable on the TA website now says departing 7am to 8am from Parsons:
Z: 721, 732, 742, 752
J: 707, 714, 727, 737, 747, 757
During skip-stop period, which lasts about 75 minutes, each is every 10 minutes at best, express stations get 5 minute service.
There are never more than 10 an hour combined.
In the hey-day of the 14/15, it was no better.
"The subway timetable on the TA website now says departing 7am to 8am from Parsons:
Z: 721, 732, 742, 752
J: 707, 714, 727, 737, 747, 757"
That's very shabby rush hour service.
N Bwy
Now imagine killing skip stop and removing few (50%) of the stations, the service would look quite good?!
Arti
Service would look quite good if they will have express service to at least Broadway East NY.
N Bwy
[Service would look quite good if they will have express service to at least Broadway East NY. ]
Z express J local, and for most of the commuters the service frequency wouldn't change.
Arti
I feel comfortable with that arrangement only if the Z is schedule to come more often than the J during these periods.
N Bwy
[I feel comfortable with that arrangement only if the Z is schedule to come more often than the J during these periods. ]
Probably a reasonable idea, looks like those intermediate stations don't get that much patronage. At the same time that would reduce the service to those + additional travel time, so politically a hard sell.
Arti
There was a time when the Jamaica train ran express from Eastern Parkway to Essex St, making one stop at Myrtle Ave.
This was in the days when Marcy Ave was a local stop only, and the center track switches were west of the station, not east.
"There was a time when the Jamaica train ran express from Eastern Parkway to Essex St, making one stop at Myrtle Ave.
This was in the days when Marcy Ave was a local stop only, and the center track switches were west of the station, not east. "
Why did they destroy such a good system?
N Bwy
Why did they destroy such a good system?
I believe that Marcy became an express stop around 1962. I had left the city five years earlier so I don't know the reasons behind the change. Perhaps it was based on usage. Marcy certainly did have more traffic than its neighbors, Hewes, Lorimer & Flushng.
The Bdwy Bklyn Lcl (made all stops between Canal St & Atlantic Ave) handled all of the local stops in those days. I guess that the Z & J share those duties today except for Atlantic Ave!
The 15 and QJ Express ran thru the local tracks at Marcy but did not stop, while the 10 and M Express did stop. The "express" track was a rusted out stub.
Since I never ride the skip stop service in the AM, I didn't realize service was cut to that level. But it did run more frequently, as little as 3-4 years ago. J/Z trains always run at 7/8 minute intervals to Jamaica in the PM. I can attest to that personally.
Perhaps the line is not busy midday because it is slow? Close down half of the stations and you could probably save 15 minutes on the journey time. The question is, would more people be attracted to ride because of the reduced journey than would be lost due to losing a local station? I usually find that 12 stops is as much as I can cope with on any rail journey. After that, my life-force begins to drain away.
The N Broadway Line suffers from similar problems. It hardly ever comes. But the difference is, it's extremely crowded. To top that off, it's extremely crowded with people who don't like using soap and water. So, as slow as it is, at least you don't have to endure crowded trains w/ smelly people on the J line. Luckily, once you get on the N line, it does get you where you want to go at a reasonable time. I can't say that about the J for what I know of it. It kind of reminds me about the D "express", ALWAYS STOPPING AND GOING! NEVER SURE WHEN YOUR GOING TO MAKE IT TO YOUR DESTINATION ON TIME. That's why me and my family always prefer taking the A which I consider the REAL express.
Oh BOY! Here it goes again.
N Broadway LOCAL
You call the A an express? Crowded, infrequent? That isn't an express.
You never rode the A express, otherwise your response would have made sense! As far as I know, it's was (and probably still is), the fastest line in the system.
N Broadway Line
I thought the Q was
Bob
"I thought the Q was"
I thought the Q was too, however, the Q merge with so many different lines and it doesn't run as often as the A express. For instance, numerous times I've waiting at the west 4th Street, I see more F's than the B,D,and Q combine. But what's also more facinating, I see more D's and B's too. The Q isn't schedule to run as often as the D because it doesn't run as far as the other lines. Plus, it suffers the same fate as the BMT lines around Dekalb Avenue going around extremely sharp turns. But overall, I would rate the Q as one of the fastest trains R40. However, at one time, the 38's rule the transit system until they slowed them down because of mechanical problems.
A expppprrrressssss.
Oh NO! not again.
N Broadway Local
You never rode the A express, otherwise your response would have made sense! As far as I know, it's was (and probably still is), the fastest line in the system. If you talking about rush hours, you are still WRONG. The A runs much more trains than the D,Q and B combine.
N Broadway Line
It was an express with a capital E when the R-10s ruled supreme. It's been diminished somewhat now, but the CPW and Fulton St. express runs are still good.
I suppose I could say the Sea Beach is the best subway line, but I don't want to appear ridiculous, and so I will not make such an outlandish statement. But it could be if the following were done.
1. Send some other line to Astoria
2. Make the new northern terminal Times Square-42nd Street as it was
decades ago.
3. Make it run express in Manhattan, bypassing many of the lesser
important stations in that borough.
4. Send it over the Manhattan Bridge instead of letting my train
meander into the lower bowels of Manhattan.
5. Fix the express tracks after 59th Street so the express tracks can
go in both directions. And run both a local & express in Brooklyn.
6. Clean up all the garbage that has accumulated in the open cut in
Brooklyn. (Do these things and my line could be No. 1)
I like this, except for 1 and 5. There is no other line to go to Astoria, the R already goes to Forest Hills.
And as for the last one, using the Sea Beach express tracks is a complete waste.
The J line receives bad service for two reasons: One, it has a smaller passenger ratio. And two, it serves mostly minority communities. Most importantly, the infrastructure is old and inadequate for todays citizens who want to get to their destination quickly. As a result, the line isn't as popular as it could be.
N Broadway LOCAL
The amount of service any line receives is based on ridership, track capacity, and the availalability of subway cars, not on the ethnic makeup of the ridership. The first reason N Broadway Line gave is the correct answer: the riding just isn't there, especially since the Williamsburg Bridge closed in 1999 and riding shifted to the L and to bus routes feeding the A and C.
David
And also to the car, especially here in Ridgewood which is an additional transfer (to the M shuttle) on weekends. There are certainly enough peopleover here, but the neighborhood was built around the factory/cemetery belt, so there was probably minimal ridership; then it did turn minority, and service was cut back even more (Myrtle el.), now it seems to be geared towards the car. People take cars (and car service), instead of transit (buses as well), so that justifies not running anything, and since not that much is runing to anywhere, people are more encouraged to take cars/car service. (My wife, who can't stand the transfers, used to push me that we had to get a car, but we had nowhere near the money, and to me it seems a headache, partly because there are already so many cars on these narrow streets. I just like to live somewhere with decent transit)
I was thinking of how discouraged we are from taking transit last Fri. trying to get onto the J from Chinatown at night. Go to Chambers, you have to walk right past where the station is to use the IRT entrance, and then walk backto where the J is. (even with HEET's, that entrance was closed). Go to Canal, you have to enter the southbound side and walk all the way around. Now tell me this doesn't discourage people from using it (it certainly discourages my wife and friends. They are more inclined to take the L, which is being pitched to us, even though it puts us further from our houses. It also limits us from moving further into Ridgewood where it's nicer, but only the M goes. This area is as much a car neighborhood as Bayside!).
(And two, it serves mostly minority communities.)
I'm sure when the MTA discusses what services a community will receive Race is always the first thing they bring up. Name one subway line that doesn't serve minority communities. GIVE ME A BRAKE!
"I'm sure when the MTA discusses what services a community will receive Race is always the first thing they bring up. Name one subway line that doesn't serve minority communities. GIVE ME A BRAKE!"
In this case your right, it isn't a factor. So I apologize for even bringing it up. But the line does go to some of the poorest areas (mostly minority) in the city and hardly serves a white clientel.
N Broadway Line
The problem is less who and what it does serve that who and what it doesn't, which is Manhattan between Houston and 96th streets. Lines that serve low income neighborhoods in Harlem, the South Bronx, Corona, Jamaica and even Bed-Stuy have good service, because those lines also serve the central residential and business districts in Manhattan.
The J/M/Z exit the borough at Delancey Street, and therefore are of no concern to a lot of the more politically influental New Yorkers. It's also the reason why the Chambers Street BMT station is on the verge of collapse in spots, while the adjacent Brooklyn Bridge IRT station has been refurbished twice in the last 40 years.
Odds are a lot of people who've taken the subway hundreds of times from uptown or midtown to lower Manhattan would'nt have a clue where they were if they accidentally stumbled into the Chambers Street BMT stop. now if the MTA were to ever hook up the Nassau Loop with the Second Ave. line, it would suddenly turn into the refubished showcase subway station of downtown Manhattan.
This is true. This area got screwed partly from being an awkward east-by-south east of midtown, so we get neither the north-south mainlines, nor the east-west crosstown lines to midtown. Although, there once was service to midtown, it wasn't given enough chance. (Once again, service was poor (infrequent), and it wasn't used, so people wound up changing to the F anyway. I wish they'd give it another shot, especially on weekends, instead of just beefing up the L on us, which is a bit closer to midtown, but still no dice (transfers/stairs). When Canal express platforms open, it will be much easier to get to Times Sq. from the J (but still 3 trains for the M on weekends).
Odds are a lot of people who've taken the subway hundreds of times from uptown or midtown to lower Manhattan would'nt have a clue where they were if they accidentally stumbled into the Chambers Street BMT stop.
They'd probably think they'd stumbled into a long-forgotten mausoleum.
The Eastern Division has been the but of the subway system for yesrs on end.Alright,lets face the truth.Look at the service paterns from 1967 untill now.Then,we had the QJ,RJ,MJ,JJ and M. In 1968,the RJ/JJ routes were killed and replaced with the KK.SO now there was the QJ/KK/MJ and M routes. The original plan for the KK=168st.WASHINGTON HEIGHTS to ROCKAWAY PKY or 168 st JAMAICA,via Central park west local,6 ave local,Broadway/Brooklyn Express. That didnt happen,and the line died. Anyway,in1969 the MJ was done in even though ridership didnt merit it's removal.It was replaced with the B54 bus. Now we have the QJ/KK/M LINES. In early 1973,the QJ and KK lines were history,replaced with the J and K routes[along with line shortings].In '76, the K was gone,leaving the J and M ONLY. THIS was in fact the worst period [1976-'88]in Eastern Division history. TO make a long story short,over the years service has been reduced,cut back,hacked,slashed,sliced,diced and basicly ---- up by the T.A. EVEN WITH THE NEW ARCHER AVE SUBWAY SERVICE. Skip/stop service that ony last one hour with the Z[J clone],no direct route to MIDTOWN and all routing through to Downtown Brooklyn reduced to rush hours only. Newer rail cars [R44/46/68/68A]couldnt run there because they didnt want to spend the money to fix the clearance problems, but the problems were fixed on all the other lines,nor was the thought of buying cars for these routes ever brought up. The platforms could have been extended for 10 car trains and should have been,but that didnt happen. The line should have been relocated for faster service to and from JAMAICA,BUT IT WASNT. There is a lot more I could say,but why bother? Iguess the riders along this route didnt scream loud enough like the rider along QUEENS BLVD or ROSEVELT AVENUE. Something smells rotten,people.WOULD anyone care to comment?
[The platforms could have been extended for 10 car trains and should have been,but that didnt happen. ]
Wouldn't that make it one continuous platform, like Chicago Loop :-)
Arti
Wouldn't that make it one continuous platform, like Chicago Loop
No it wouldn't, because it's the State and Dearborn subways that have the continuous platforms.
"The line should have been relocated for faster service to and from JAMAICA"
Jamaica Avenue will definately be a lot better than Fulton Street because of the Turns. And even if local stops are install throughout the whole route. It's terrible the TA isn't considering this option to improve the line. Is it cost, NIMBY or what? How many people living along Jamaica Avenue would be affected? And, how much pressure would it take to ignitate this idea? This will definately remove some of the crowds off the E Queens Blvd line. On top of that, they could implement a new service via 6th Avenue. Question? Does these tracks merge with the express B and D tracks or the F local tracks? If it merges with the B and D tracks, they is plenty of room for a new line. Maybe this new line can go to the Bronx, sending the B back to 168th Street.
"Iguess the riders along this route didnt scream loud enough like the rider along QUEENS BLVD or ROSEVELT AVENUE. Something smells rotten,people."
If the riders aren't screaming loud enough for better service, than it's no wonder this Jamica line is as bad as it is.
Even when I'm killing some time, I find the line sickening. So I feel people who travel to work should find it sickening as well.
N Bwy
Both tracks connect to the local only. The northbound (BJ2) track comes down between the express and local, and probably could be connected if you removed some columns. The southbound (BJ1) turns out to the right of the local track, and according to some maps, the four Chrystie St. tracks run together like a 4-track line for a while, but I'm not sure how accurate that is, and taking into consideration whether they are level or not, I'm not sure if you could knock out a wall on B3 and connect it to BJ1. I looked along the wall approaching Grand to see if there were any openings to the outer track, but it was solid. BJ1 probably goes down while B3 goes up. So you could make the connection going uptown, but probably not downtown. I wish they could do that though.
This is an excellent recap of the history of the lines. As I was saying, it was a combination of neglect of the groups that lived there plus the apathy of those people. (They figured noone cared about them, and with the living conditions being so bad, subway service was not high in their minds)(Also, the more affluent citizens at the end of the lines had their cars)
Even with their rebuilding of local stations (one side done now, other side still waiting), they didn't take the opportunity to extend them. This wouldn't solve the 75ft problem, but at least they could assign 10 car 60 footers to a line-- such as the V and run them out there. What I've been suggesting lately has been to send the C to Metropolitan all times except nights, since it is already 8×60, and send the V to Euclid, crossing them at W 4th. This would defenitely have to wait for the new cars.
>>>Name one subway line that doesn't serve minority communities.<<<
Grand Central Shuttle. I know that's not a full fledged subway line, but I just wanted to try to answer the question.
The 7 Train serves No Minorites, HAHAHA just kidding
<>
YOU SAY THAT THE J RECEIVES LESS SERVICE BECAUSE IT SERVES MOSTLY MINORITY NEIGHBORHOODS? PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME SICK. ALWAYS TRYING TO RECEIVE VICTIM STATUS. ALWAYS CRYING FOR NOTHING.
WHAT SUBWAY LINES DON'T SERVE MINORITY COMMUNITIES? DO ANY NON-MINORITY NEIGHBORHOODS EVEN REMAIN IN THE CITY?
LOOK AT THE 7 TRAIN. NOT ONE WHITE/AMERICAN PERSON TO BE FOUND ON THAT LINE, AND I SWEAR THERE IS A TRAIN EVERY 90 SECONDS.
LOOK AT THE E TRAIN. GOES TO JAMAICA, WHICH IS 90% BLACK, AND SERVICE ON THAT LINE IS GREAT DURING RUSH HOURS.
TAKE THE G LINE. THAT WOULD BE THE CLOSEST THING TO A LINE SERVING A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD(Greenpoint is mostly Polish), AND THE CITY IS LOOKING TO CUT SERVICE BACK ON THAT LINE.
LOOK AT THE M TRAIN TO MIDDLE VILLAGE. SHUTTLES DURING THE WEEKEND, AND NOT EXACTLY THE FASTEST LINE IN THE SYSTEM. J TRAINS ARE KNOWN TO OUTNUMBER M TRAINS, AS HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED IN THE RIDGEWOOD TIMES. YET, THE M TRAIN GOES TO A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD, WHILE THE J GOES TO A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD. HOW CAN THAT BE???
LOOK AT THE M TRAIN TO MIDDLE VILLAGE. SHUTTLES DURING THE WEEKEND, AND NOT EXACTLY THE FASTEST LINE IN THE SYSTEM. J TRAINS ARE KNOWN TO OUTNUMBER M TRAINS, AS HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED IN THE RIDGEWOOD TIMES. YET, THE M TRAIN GOES TO A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD, WHILE THE J GOES TO A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD. HOW CAN THAT BE???
This is because people are used to their cars, but it's the people who live further in who are being slighted. The decisions may not be racist now, but it does seem to have been set in motion by policies in the past when Bushwick was probably ignored as a large junk yard. (service was cut, people didn't ride, so now there's no reason to provide service)
[Most importantly, the infrastructure is old and inadequate for todays citizens who want to get to their destination quickly. As a result, the line isn't as popular as it could be. ]
I think you have a point here, being one of the oldes lines the stops are placed very close, as back then it was the ONLY affordable mode of transpostation. Well it's 21st century now, time to abandon half of those stations, maybe even more and learn from the experience of other transportation systems where they use surface transit to feed RAPID TRANSIT lines.
And I don't want to hear about the virtues of skip-stop service from anyone. Can you spell increased wait time!
Arti
I like the (J) too. It's a fun line to ride---when I have time. It is, unfortunately, quite slow. But it's infinitely more interesting than Queens Blvd.
:-) Andrew
The J has it's good and bad points. It's reliable and rarely crowded to crush levels. It's also slowed by too many curves and the grade crossing at Myrtle Ave.
I've ridden the J all my life. I like it. I'd take it over any other line in Queens.
"It's also slowed by too many curves and the grade crossing at Myrtle Ave."
I rode the line enough to know that the line is slow when it's traveling in a straight line also. That's is the most horrible part.
N Broadway Line
It's slowness is caused by the large numbers of timers required by the curves and switches. In areas where none of the timers are in place, the J is as fast as any other line.
The March 2001 edition of The MAP is now in circulation.
This is the "Blue" version - that is, the regular version (blue for the background color on the front).
The only change I could find was the Transit Museum ad. In the January version the ad was for the exhibit at the Store at GCT. This one is for the exhibit at the Museum itself.
I would imagine the "Red" Multilingual version (red for the background color on the front) will be out soon.
>>The only change I could find was the Transit Museum ad.<<
What!!! They didn't include the 63rd. connector diversions! That Sucks!!!
I think the 63rd St Connector information has been on the maps since January. Hence, not a change!
John.
Exactly.
Thanks John
A kickoff meeting for the SDEIS is to occur on the 19th at MTA HQ.
See new stuff on MTA's webpage:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/mesa/index.html
Notice that the subway cars in the illustration resemble an R110A and an R62.
I sure hope they decide to build express tracks eventually. Why would you miss an opportunity to do so? 2nd Avenue is plenty wide enough to keep them on the same level. They could even open the locals and then add the express later, like with the 6th Avenue line. At least build provisions for them...
Well, apparently, they're making the stations so far apart that it would resemble the IND midtown express services (which skip a total of four stops). I don't know how much express service would help the supposed 5 stops on the northern portion...
It doesn't sound like a four-track system is in the cards for this. But we'll know more when the Preferred and Other Alternatives are listed in the documents.
[It doesn't sound like a four-track system is in the cards for this. But we'll know more when the Preferred and Other Alternatives are listed in the documents.]
I saw some growth projections a while back that suggest we'll be clamoring for those extra two tracks a few years from now! The important thing now I think is to design the subway with the addition of express tracks in mind. It shouldn't add much to the cost. But they have to think hard about where they put and how they design the stations.
Well if they could run this line at 90 sec headways, not unimaginable, with few stops it perhaps could work.
* note: I believe in intermodal transportation.
Arti
[? 2nd Avenue is plenty wide enough to keep them on the same level. ]
I'm not sure you understand the design (MTA's site has the geography,) most but the excisting sections (reuse) and the stations are planned to be mostly TBMed or blased, thus the width of the Avenue (not ROW in this case) has no meaning.
Arti
Why use tunnel boring machines? Wouldn't cut-and-cover be easier, faster, and less expensive? Also, upon service implementation, passengers wouldn't have to descend the inevitably broken escalators 3, 4 or 5 levels downward (a la 63rd/Lex) to get to the trains.
Is the only advantage to TBM's to mitigate surface disruption during construction? Seems like a lot to go through to please a few shop-owners and residents along 2nd Ave., who had to have heard of the possibility of the 2nd Avenue Subway's arrival, no matter how remote it may have seemed all these years.
Sounds like this is really just gonna be "The Stubway." Basically, a feeder-shuttle for the BMT Broadway or IND 6th Ave. lines.
[Why use tunnel boring machines? Wouldn't cut-and-cover be easier, faster, and less expensive? Also, upon service implementation, passengers wouldn't have to descend the inevitably broken escalators 3, 4 or 5 levels downward (a la 63rd/Lex) to get to the trains. ]
TBM is not some expensive esoteric technology anymore. The cost is comparative to cut and cover. In Manhattan TBM has one major advantage, no need to relocate utilities (or whatever unknown stuff is down there) or underpin buildings. Also if you look at the proposed geometry, the stations will be built close to the surface using cut and cover.
[Seems like a lot to go through to please a few shop-owners and residents along 2nd Ave., ]
I don't think that after the construction ends they would be shop owners any more.
Arti
Arti's correct here. When a subway is built closer to the surface, it threatens the integrity of building foundations. It would really be inconvenient to have a huge office or apartment building topple over, so extra work is required to underpin it. Deep boring keeps construction away from where it can negatively impact people. For example, the Third Water Tunnel project has been chewing its way through Queens with almost no-one aware of it. One recording studio found extra noise on its audio taping equipment one day - its microphones were so sensitive they picked up the TBM bits passing through the area! But that was the only problem of its type, as far as I know.
> "Is the only advantage to TBM's to mitigate surface disruption during construction? Seems like a lot to go through to please a few shop-owners and residents along 2nd Ave., who had to have heard of the possibility of the 2nd Avenue Subway's arrival, no matter how remote it may have seemed all these years."
No, there are additional advantages to TBM for this particular application.
First, you have to think big picture. When you tear up Second Avenue for extensive C&C construction, you aren't just disrupting the residents and businesses along the street. The loss of vehicle lanes will certainly back traffic up into the neighbouring areas. I can easily foresee long term, major traffic delays as far away as the Deegan and FDR, simply as a Domino effect. Using an example from before, examine what happens to traffic in the vicinity of the high rise condominium construction between East 91st and East 92nd streets. Now picture that for a whole cut and cover tunnel segment. Yes, some C&C will be proposed, but my guess is it will be limitted to only what is absolutely necessary.
Second, cut and cover along Second Avenue would require monumental utility relocation. If you refer to the MTA's planning study, there is a profile of the proposed tunnel. A large sewer is called out on that schematic for a very good reason. It's relocation alone would be a herculean effort, and the DOS is notorius for giving numerous headaches in the past about building around much smaller sewer lines. Gravity flow must be maintained all the way to East 110th Street (maybe it's East 116th Street, I don't recall), where there's a pump station over by the FDR that sends sewage out to Wards Island. Yuck.
Matt-2AV
[I can easily foresee long term, major traffic delays as far away as the Deegan and FDR, simply as a Domino effect.]
I'm old enough to remember the cut-and-cover construction of the existing portions of the Second Avenue subway. For the most part it was just a bunch of wooden planks. People in New York make a big stink about everything, but it was no big deal, and I think we should keep in mind that this subway tunnel will still be young 100 years from now. If doing the best job means a few years' inconvenience, isn't it worth it? The original IRT was built cut-and-cover because it was best for the passengers, and it seems to me that that policy should still be true today. (Of course, they still new how to build a subway in those days -- a full length four track line built with little more than picks and shovels for a good deal less on an inflation-adjusted basis than they would build it for today, even after accounting for improvements in safety practices, conditions and wages.)
[cut and cover along Second Avenue would require monumental utility relocation.]
As I understand it, Second Avenue was kept relatively utility free in anticipation of subway construction. From what I understand cut and cover and deep bore would cost about the same (which is to say maybe three to five times what they should, using the LA subway construction costs as a baseline). Cut and cover would just provide a better subway.
[As I understand it, Second Avenue was kept relatively utility free in anticipation of subway construction. From what I understand cut and cover and deep bore would cost about the same ]
Cut and cover is actually more expensive, at least by current European standards. Let's not forget the Cunnel (here I go again) TBMed.
A good resource for current tunneling projects is www.tunnelbuilder.com
Let's hope that Skanska will get the contract to build 2nd Ave line.
Arti
Thank you for posting that. I will try to attend the hearing.
I see one of the alternatives envisages using the Nassau Street loop.
i recently ride on the market-frankford evel there train
was clean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You post another message with this many exclamation points again and I'll send "Seven" on the next Greyhound bus down there.
LOL
that's bullshit. what train were you on? Philadelphians are filthy. I hope that was sarcasm on your part.
They maybe clean, but the M-4's don't run well.
I was interested in attending a one day conference in Pittsburgh today at work, but when I checked Amtrak's website, they scheduled an 8 hour ride. Is that correct? I heard it's only 5 hours to drive or a one hour flight. How can the train take that long in one state?
Remember, this is slAmTrak that we're talking about. That train makes so many stops that you'd think that the engineer mistook some Ex-Lax for a chocolate bar.
It's a mixed (passenger and freight) train and uses a lot of time dealing with revenue-producing equipment.
The eastbound OTP is bad besides because of Chicago origination.
It is NOT a 5 hour drive (well maybe if you're Speedy Jones). You're looking at something closer to 6 or 7 hours driving (I know it's three hours to Carisle) plus at least a $13 toll each way, plus a (or more) stopover for gas/food/restroom (30min). I say take Amtrak. It'll only cost you about 4 extra hours, it'll be a great ride, you'll be much less stressed out, will probably be cpeaper than flying and you'll see the Horseshoe curve, Altoona, the rockville bridge and multitudes of PRR Position Light signals.
1) The route is not a straight line. Remember, you have to get past the Appalachians somehow, and the PRR did not build the tunnels that the NY Central did (now used by the PA Turnpike), so you are zig-zagging your way across the state.
2) You are competing with Norfolk Southern freights and using their right-of-way.
3) You are dealing with ex-Conrail infrastructure. It's maintained (and not very well in the past) primarily (yes, the by FRA rules it's passenger-safe, of course) for freight traffic, not high-speed rail. There are speed restrictions on the route. Hell, a chunk near the western end of the Rockville Bridge fell into the Susquehanna R. a couple years ago and too a blue diesel loco or 2 with it.
4) These days, the main reason for Amtrak's Penna. routes is to generate express freight business. If Amtrak were allowed to run the train freight only (they must cary some passengers by virtue of their charter), they might, over the strong objections of NS, of course. There are layovers in Harrisburg and Philadelphia for crew-changes and the addition of roadrailers and boxcars. Basically it's a freight train. There are more freight cars on the train than coaches. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that -- in fact, it's a good source of revenue -- but Amtrak is really not yet infrastructure and labor-equipped to handle freight coincidental with passenger service. At least not to the efficient standards found during the heyday or railroading.
5) Have you ever seen one of these trains? Amtrak has allocated its oldest equipment to the route. I don't suspect anything on the train runs at peak performance. I wouldn't be surprised to see the sleepers moved off the train since many of the Superliners were damaged in the Iowa crash. Amtrak is not flush with trailers these days, and it's getting thinner by the minute. Running in PA is a delicate and deliberate business.
You are dealing with ex-Conrail infrastructure.
What does that mean? The CR/NS Penn Route (Pittsburg/Harrisburg Lines) was/is one of their premier freight routes and is maintained to very high standards and there are no more speed restrictings than on most other lines.
Hell, a chunk near the western end of the Rockville Bridge fell into the Susquehanna R. a couple years ago and too a blue diesel loco or 2 with it.
I don't think any CR locos went into the drink and the damage was quite minor.
You are dealing with ex-Conrail infrastructure.
What does that mean? The CR/NS Penn Route Pittsburg/Harrisburg Lines) was/is one of their premier freight routes and is maintained to very high standards and there are no more speed restrictings than on most other lines.
Hey, Mikey, I'm the last one to impune the ex-Standard Railroad of the World. I was simply referring to the speed comparison between the NEC and the Penn route. You can't run in excess of 100mph on many parts of Amtrak's route system, which is utilizing freight ROWs for most of the intercity routes.
Hell, a chunk near the western end of the Rockville Bridge fell into the Susquehanna R. a couple years ago and too a blue diesel loco or 2 with it.
I don't think any CR locos went into the drink and the damage was quite minor.
Thought I remembered part of the train falling off the bridge. Perhaps wasn't the power. It was fairly big in the news, according to Dad. You can see where they repaired the crumbled part with concrete, which destroys the aesthetic of the bridge a bit.
I thought that faced it store. It dosen't show up in any recent photograph. A freight car might have gone into the watch, but I thought stuff was just hanging off.
Assume that you are stuck with zig-zagging track, but tilting trains (as used in Europe) mean that corners can be taken at speed. If British Rail can develop and run 125mph diesel trains, then anyone can, so lets pretend that there are no freight trains in the way and assume 100 mph average speed with five minutes per station stop (major stations only).
How long would this take, and would anyone use such a service?
Crossing the Alleghenies is more complicated than just zigzagging. When Ive taken the train from Philly to Pittsburgh, we crawled up the mountains presumably because of insufficient power, and we crawled down the other side because of speed restriction to avoid runaway.
On both sides there are a lot of curves and a constand %1.# grade and the ruling grade up the east slope is like %2.82.
Here are the OFFICIAL timetable speed restrictions. It takes up three pages.
http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/ett/cripitl7.gif
http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/ett/cripitl8.gif
http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/ett/cripitl9.gif
You can see it's not that bad and most parts of the line is set for 70-80mph.
When riding the train, one notices how slow it goes; for example 35 to 45 mph for 6 miles makes one forget about the majority of track with 70 mph speed.
Geez, and people moan about the New Haven Line!!!!
Is a lot of the slow stuff due to lousey track too? If they could make 90 - 100 on most of it,. they could probbably do it in ~3 hours. Of course, with those grades, the only real way to achive and maintain those speeds is with electrification - especially given the weight of Amtrak's passenger equipment.
Ever notice how it takes 2 F-40's to do the job of an AEM-7?
Ever notice how it takes 2 F-40's to do the job of an AEM-7?
Yes, they have 1/2 the horsepower. Stop comparing apples to oranges.
In 1948 the PRR decided that it would not be economically viable to electrify through to Pittsuburg. In this day and age, although I would hate to admit it, probably the best route for electrification would be the CSX Chicago Line and Hudson Line north of Po'town.
I rode one of the First Great Western diesel sets from Paddington to Didcot... knowing you were doing 125 mph in a diesel set sort of makes you look back at trains at home and think, we'll never get it right...
-Dave
Umm hmm, my sentiments exactly.
The only thing that scares me about the British trains is that there is no ATP, no stop arms, or any similar system in effect, so if a train runs through a red light, the train will keep on going until the engineer stops the train.................or something else! (i.e.the Paddington rail crash a couple years back).
So actually while the we in the US have some catching up to do, so do the Brits as well.
I believe there is ATP now on the First Great Western mail line form Paddington, as well as AWS. It was there at the time of the Southall crash but was not commissioned. The Thames train at Ladbroke Grove was not fitted. Heathrow Expres services are fitted.
Simon
Swindon
They also have a severe loading guage problem and their rail freight service is like equilivent to Amtrak. In terms of environmental and economic concerns a good rail freight network is better than a good passenger newtowk.
Mike, here in the UK I feel the passenger service is the more important, both on long and short distance routes. Most services are very intense and trains well filled. The alterantive is to go by car and the already overcrowded roads can take little nore.
YOu will have to tell me why our freight services are like Amtrak as I have little knowledge of the Amtrak network. Perhaps you could steer me in the right direction of some good Amtrak sites with info on your diesel locos.
Simon
Swindon UK
From what I have heard and what my scotrail friend has told me in the US a combined passenger timetable could fill a magizine while a freight timetable would fill several volumes. In the UK a combined freight timetable could fill a magizine while the combined passenger time table fills several volumes (and cost $40).
I feel that it is much better to get the smelly, polluting, road ruining trucks off the highways first and then work on passenger autos.
The UK really needs to work on clearance problems to allow more stack trains, heavier rail for heavier cars and better sidings etc to allow trains longer than 40 cars.
Its not a complete free for all. The problem is that the protection system used can be overridden by the driver.
The Inter-City 125 definitely saved British Rail long distance services, or prolonged the agony depending on your point of view. They gave exactly the right image to the public just as the Advanced Passenger Train was running into difficulty. In fact, passenger numbers rose even when sets were cascaded down onto secondary services (e.g. St Pancras to Nottingham and Sheffield) where they did not accelerate journey times (the so-called nose-cone effect).
Did anyone on the USA ever experiment with high speed diesel passenger services?
Did anyone on the USA ever experiment with high speed diesel passenger services?
Yes, back in the day the Burlington Route had their Zpyher trainsets w/ a max speed of 110 they DID average speeds of 78 mph on some long distance routes. The UP also had some trainsets that were geared for 120 and I think ran somewhere 100-110. There was also some Talgo trainsets on the Rock Island back in the 60's-70's, but they were too light and bouncy to be popular.
Thinking about the abandoned station above Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights, I think that station would have been eventually abandoned if the 2nd system was built. This station would have been like Court St, where the Transit Museum is now. I don't think many people would have used whatever line that would terminate there, since most people probably would have wanted to use the line that would directly connect with Queens Blvd. Any thoughts?
I think it would have survived. perhaps it would have been for short turns because the QB main line was at capacity. besides some riders from the 7 would board. And in any event the real tragedy is that the lines weren't built so the residents don't have the service.
While a good thought, the structure of the ramps that connect the Queens Blvd local tracks to the Roosevelt Ave "second system" station don't really lend themselves to short-turn trains.
--Mark
I'm curious as to the character of my neighborhood before the 55-58 conversion from trolleys to busses, as well as the "urban renewal" entailing the Society Hill Towers. Did anyone here live in Philly before and after the conversion, and can you make any comments on the Society Hill neighborhood (I've read it was a Jewish slum) at that time? Thanks a lot.
I didn't hit the streets until '57 so I don't know first-hand, but the Dock Street area was the city's produce market until the late 50's when the Food Center was built in South Phila. From what I've read and heard, it was a dirty place.
I recall riding the 5 bus on 2nd St over what is now Society Hill, before 2nd St was cut off through the area. When that happened (about '65), the 5 rerouted over Dock, Mattis and Spruce Sts to get back to 2nd.
Yes, I took a trip to the Bronx Saturday and got out of there alive. No one recognized me. But, then again, I was in the North Bronx between 236 and 242nd Street, and I can say it was a pretty nice place. I was told it was between Kingsbridge and Riverdale, and I was impressed by the neat apartment houses and the single dwellings from 240th Street and above. I talked to three ladies and two men, and they were all friendly and helpful. I believed I crossed over the NY Thruway during my jaunt. OK Stef, you were right. There are still some very nice sections in the Bronx, but I did draw a few wierd looks when they saw my Mets windbreaker I wore. Not to get anyone mad, I did not wear it when I went railfanning with the guys on Sunday. However, I found out that a number of them were Mets fans, so that further made my day.
Welcome!
Thanks! Spread the word, I don't want to be Public Enemy #1 in the Bronx any longer. I might not be so lucky next time because next time I'm going to the South Bronx instead. I told you guys I was a little nuts.
The "Thruway" officially begins at the Yonkers border, that was the "Major Deegan Expressway" (which *is* the Thruway just the same) and the neighborhood you were in is called "Kingsbridge" ... that's my own old stmping grounds ... Broadway, Bailey Avenue running north and south by the IRT there. Not to worry though, lots of Mets fans around there. Probably the shock of seeing someone FLAUNTING it since you've gotta keep your head down and your jets chilled lest the Junkee fans "come for you" ... heh.
I was wondering what sent that shiver up my spine - it was you. :)
Now go back to the See Beech where ya belong, bub! Or we'll have to haul you up Kingsbridge Road to where it meets Fordham and give you a real life demonstration of the movie, "The Wanderers" ... Heh.
[The "Thruway" officially begins at the Yonkers border, that was the "Major Deegan Expressway"]
Say, Kev, that reminds me -- since there's a Major Deegan why ain't there a Minor Deegan?
nyuk! nyuk! nyuk!
:-)
There was ... the Major got busted for improper dealings with the minor ... so there. There's even a statue to Major Deegan somewhere near 138th St ... but yeah, it confuses the bejeepers out of out of towners when the Thruway just disappears from out of nowhere south of Yankers Raceway and then they get dumped on 3rd Avenue ...
Wiseass ... heh.
I'll give you a minor deegan.:-) (poke)
Can you imagine the Three Stooges running a subway train? Can anyone say Malbone St. revisited?
If I ever manage to get some time (and some sales of what we make to cover it), when I manage to get up to Branford, "Hi. I'm Larry" ... but then most of the rest of you guys can do that as well probably. I'll go for Shemp then.
How's about we take 1689 for a spin. Woowoowoowoowoowoowoo ...
Why, soitanly.:-)
Hey, Moe, what happens if I-
DON'T TOUCH THAT SHOE!!!! Snap! Crackle! Pop! Sizzle!
I'll bet that running 1689 would be like riding a bicycle.
Just gotta get a recalibration of the feel of the service application zone and I'm all set ... wouldn't wanna do a BIE unless we needed it. Heh.
[Can you imagine the Three Stooges running a subway train?]
Isn't that how zman handles the J Line?....;-)
Woof tickets ... get your woof tickets ...
I won't touch that one.:-) Woo-woo-woo-woo.
Just the same, maybe when I return to the Bronx on my next trip I bring a few of my railfan buddies for protection. That's it! We will railfan in the Bronx, and BMT Doug, Gary, Jeff, Newkirk, Q7, and Big Thurston will cover my back. Anyway, I did like what I saw of your old stompting grounds. But Mets fans up there? Hard to believe but nice to hear. I do remember as a kid traveling up to the Bronx with my dad to see one of his old friends ( a Yankee fan, of course). While I was playing stickball at a park nearby wearing by Brooklyn Dodger cap, three different guys my age came by and told me they were Dodger fans, too. I found that hard to believe. In the Bronx? But I won't tell you what some others told me, though. It was not nearly as friendly.
Not so illogical, Captain ... after all, the Bronx foots the bill for Steingrabber's dreams ... and Junkee fans tend to be loud an obnoxious. The more laid back citizenry of the Bronx despises the boorish behavior of a lot of Junkee fans. If it weren't for the Mets, they're be Boston fans. :)
And as to that trip to the South Bronx, you'll find it quite safe actually. The south Bronx went to hell in a handcart in the 60's and 70's. It's coming back now. I'd avoid the Tremont area nowadays. But down between 138th and 167th? It's coming back with rowhouses and restorations of many of the buildings around there. Still, I'd rather hang out with the cows ... NYC runs at a bit too fast a rate of speed for my personal taste ... push push push on a daily basis and so little to show for it.
"... push push push on a daily basis and so little to show for it. "
Well said
I'm a homey, what can I say? I was 26 when I hadn't quite scraped up enough bucks to move somewhere else, but a buddy of mine (I was living on Sedgewick and Kingsbridge Rd at the time) from up in Norwood stopped by the apartment (sorry guys, no R9 cab but I did have the original "Captain Nemo" radio board from WABC that cuzzin Brucie used in the 50's and 60's) and said, "Hey KJ, I'm packing up and moving to New Paltz ... wanna come?" HELL YEAH ...
What amazed me though was how it seemed that everything I earned, and everything I did just got eaten up by the city. Get ahead, fall behind. Treadmill living. Living way upstate, it's a much gentler life, pants optional. You don't live high on the hog, but you largely get to keep what you earned and the folks up here are nice. And things don't have to happen in a hurry, so long as they happen when they need to. I'll take this any day, living in the city just had me twirling so fast, the fur was flying off. I'm a bit saner now. :)
You can hear yourself think up here ... if you don't die of boredom.
Living in the City takes the Shizzit out of you, beats you up and over, and time flies by so that you actually feel getting older by the second, still its a small price to pay to avoid such solitude and boredom of the "suburbs" or in the "stix" And there arent any subways there, i'll tell you that. And the rush keeps me thinking that this whole insanity thing isnt really affecting me or anyone, what da hell am i thinking right?
Heh. Trapped! Rumor is we're getting a subway up here near Smallbany if the petty politicos stop beating each other over the head with their rubber squeaky locomotives. But yeah, the difference in living upstate vs. the city is that up here, the highest you can aspire to is selling paint at Wal*Mart or perhaps working at the big sausage factory where laws are made and budgets never happen on time serving as whores to the whores in charge. Nah, been there, dood that.
Basically the deal upstate is, "bring your own gig" ... if you can run your own business and take care of yourself, this is a truly wonderful place to kick back and be able to focus on what it is you do. There ain't no way in Hades I could write software in the city with all the distractions, interruptions, strange smells and noises of a fleeting nature that just break your train of thought with a humongous, "Yo! What the HELL is that?" Heh.
But if you can do your own gig and take care of yourself, it's nice. And out where I live, no 'burbs" though we can do a drive by within 10 miles if we really wanted to. Out here, it's all those supposedly cuddly animals that PeTA goes nuts over. We've got deer (rodents on F'ing stilts, please please please PeTA, back in here with a truck and take some with you) brown and black bears, SKONKS (wouldn't you just love a carton of 12 in a box to mail to Hizzoner?), rabbits who take out power lines, and of course racoons who can do more damage than a busload of taggers ... heh.
The one thing I've learned is that it's STRESS that makes ya sick. Not meat and cheese and beer. I'm healthier now than when I was 26 and it's all a matter of walking, chopping some wood and just chilling. But if I want to see a good movie or take in a Broadway show, then it's gotta be on pay per view on DirecTV ... but we all get together here in our little village of 2600 folks and dance and drink and shoot the sheet ... and I've got first dibs on the commuter rail if they do it ... I know the chairman of CDTA and he's gone for a few rides in train cabs with me. I'm *IN* ... heh.
[... its a small price to pay to avoid such solitude and boredom of the "suburbs" or in the "stix" And there arent any subways there ...]
Well, I've done just the opposite of Selkirk, i.e. born & brought up in the middle of nowhere. The only mass transit was a bus 15 miles away & it wasn't even a 40 footer ... rails, just a freight with a couple of cars in toe on the other side of the river. I got close to nature & developed hobbies and of course we had a Drive-In. Where I am now it ain't bad, some grass to mow, a quite street. My wife thinks it's the country, but she's a Cliff Dweller from Brooklyn. There is no way my wife will let us retire there, but I still own some property, just in case. Meanwhile I ride the rails just for fun.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, don't get me wrong. The subway will always be the only reason for me going there. But there ain't no trees! Growing up in the Bronx at least, we had trees ... lots of them though over time, they were sentenced to a 6x6 hole in a sidewalk over time.
It's funny how it works - those who grow up in the city long for country while those born in the country yearn for concrete. :)
Hey Kevin I did just the opposite of y'all. I grew up in Highbridge then, at the tender age of 9, my parents dragged me out to the suburbs. I HATED it. When I was 21 I moved BACK to the Bronx (Bedford Park) and have been here ever since, woudn't live anywhere else. sure, the neighborhood has had it's ups 'n' downs but whad'ya gonna do?
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee -- your story sounds similar to Lou Levinson's. You sure you two weren't separated at birth???? ;-)
BMTman
Yeah, suburbia absolutely is nothing more than a kennel and mindsuck. It's QUITE different though getting completely away from the materialistic world and the rat race into areas of the planet where folks actually like one another and care for one another. IN areas north of the Catskills, you can *DIE* in the winter up here and rather easily at that. So there is a common bond you don't find in the city or its environs where folks watch out for one another, care if you've had a crappy day and all cling together because you NEED to.
What I had a problem with the city over was the depersonalization and the insane pace ... it doesn't change much in the 'burbs though you may own a square footage that's larger than you'd get in the city. Still, folks who move to the suburbs bring the problems and mindsets of the city along WITH them. Look at Levittown as but one example. If that's the alternative, you might as well live in the city - most folks in the suburbs WORK in the city and thus never escape the energy of it all ... it's WAY different out in farm country ... WAY different. But it requires a certain personality as well to thrive in such an environment.
But ya wanna have a chuckle? All the kids around here can't WAIT until they get out of school so they can get one of those $75 dollar Manhattan apartments ... heh. And because they're at that certain age where they have all the answers and a "moment of clarity" delivered by someone my age would go over like a fart in a spacesuit, I ain't gonna tell them the realities since I have "old ideas" ... what can ya do other than "OK, genius ... have fun" ... :)
Only Heypaul could have an R-9 cab in his apartment - even if it's set up BMT-style.
Yeah, his pircture of it REALLY threw me for a loop. I thought I had gone completely raygun in my old age. Heh. Fortunately he was willing to tell me that what I knew wasn't wrong.
heypaul with an R-9 cab in his apartment? I heard that from my raifan buddies on Sunday. I think that's real cool. But let me tell you something, I always look forward to getting back to California except for one thing. I LOVE THE NEW YORK SUBWAY, COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY. I really miss it when I leave. I'm the original subway rat, the human kind, and I could spend a whole week riding the rails.
I can see your point. When I left in 1954 I was at a loss from leaving the city. Suburban living was crappy. But that was in September. When June and summer rolled around it was a different story and I got real used to it. Now when I come to New York I know that I don;t have to stay here permanently. It is way too crowded and big for me. BUT---and it;s a big one, I do get a real rush when I come to the Big City, and for a few days or a couple of weeks it is a real pleasure to be here. But it would be hard to live in New York City on a permanent basis. I like open fields, space between houses, and golf courses. But make no mistake, New York is the greatest city in the world and a great place to take a vacation. So much to see and so much to do.
"So much to see, so much to do" is CONNECTICUT'S slogan, you flipping traitor you! Heh. But yeah, I guess I was a few years behind you. To me, NYC meant "Fascination" on Broadway, Black Jack and Show World on 42nd and a rash of peep shows and karate theatres there as well. New York City used to be "interesting" - you could take in the "do you wanna date?" on 8th avenue, drag queen cat fights on Christopher Street, "Umbrella too dollah" on 6th Avenue and "Ofays, lids, kilos" in Bryant park ... call me old fashioned, but a sanitized "Fun City" just ain't no fun (Sieg Heil der mouse) to me ...
C'Mon buddy ... you have those blue lights out where you live that attracts insects and goes "brzzzzz" when one hits. To me, that was the whole point of going to the city ... a Tad's Steak, wretching in the street, washed down with a fine French restaurant (Ney-deeks or "Nedicks" to the uninitiated), trying to guess what exactly was IN "Kansas Fried Chicken" and the awful stench of chestnuts burning on the sidewalk in a metal cart ...
Sure I miss the burgh every now and then, but you can get GO and Sabretts up here, you can get a knish that *AIN'T* square and pooted out by a machine, *AND* you can still get PASTELLILOS in the original semi-circle style like las Puerto-riquenos grandmere used to do instead of this "generic is it Jamaican meat pattie/pastellilo/empanada" crap peddled everywhere these days. No Greek pizza up here either ... New York has been disneyfied while those that used to make 4 inch thick Sicilian slices moved up here. For me, NYC was the FOOD ... the ambience, the hookers and so on and so on. Now it's Sbarro, Bugger King and everything else you can find in Iowa ... wish I could say there were things I miss, but in my case, we've got better booty up here now.
No offense to anyone, but NYC used to be interesting.
Yep. As scuzzy as it was, NYC 10-20 years ago was more EXCITING (with a bit of danger thrown in their too) than it is today.
Times Square has been too-sanitized to the point of being 'square' and 'hokey'.
Of course the area is much safer for tourists, and etc. then during the 'wild years'.
BMTman
Yeah, perhaps it's happier for "tourista" but as a RESIDENT, I preferred "old NYC" ... after all, if you had your sidewalk act down and you were the craziest bastard on the car, you ALWAYS got a seat and if you looked crazier than anyone else, you got left alone. Stare at the widewalk, don't look up and snarl at anyone who looked at ya funny. How hard was THEM rules? Heh. And if somebody hassled you, why you'd just talk to your hand and all was forgiven. They'd get out of your way because suddenly *YOU* were the looney. Worked every time!
And if you grabbed a "karate star" outta yer pocket and looked like you knew what to do with it, even the most dangerous looking characters would back down and sweat. "Oh yeah? You and what army?" was all it really took ... aside from the touristas of course. But I miss a New York City where my old buddy "Tokyo" would sit outside the Gem Spa and bikers ruled East 5th street. Where you could get a hand job for less than an umbrella and there was a chuckle on every street corner ...
I mean if you're gonna live in *KEOKUK* the air might as well be nice to breathe. :)
I think I'd better apply a bit of correction to what I said - rampant crime was a problem back then too but it was a factor of lax enforcement. While I DO appreciate the reduction in petty crime and its improvement of quality of life since I left, that was still no excuse for turning NYC (to my mind at least) into a cultural desert and that's what I was decrying in my statements - don't want to leave people feeling insulted by my comments, but NYC overdid it a bit in killing off those amusing things that made NYC unique like no other place in the world ... the artists have largely split and some of the amusing unique charms of the city died under Herr Mayor ... and STILL the trains don't run on time, what could have been his saving grace. :)
>>>...you can still get PASTELLILOS <<<
Oh gawd, those things are great!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
(sitting her with the munchies)
I wish I could remember the chain of "chicken places" all over the Bronx that used to sell the REAL pastellilos ... something FARMS ... they'd be laid out in the front window, sitting there like borinquen omelletes next to the chicken, staring you in the face crying out, "come in here and just EAT me" ... we just had lunch in Albany at Roy's Carribean and had genuine Jamaican "meat patties" (not those generic things they sell in NYC) and I'm itching for more. Four wasn't enough.
Just remembered ... MERIT FARMS! Yummy. Them commercial "Empanadas" just don't cut it ... pastellilos were deep fried cornmeal with just a bit of meat at the folded bottom and were a good nine inches of a half circle when made authentically. Then again, in NYC those square things are passed off as knishes when any goyim knows that REAL knishes are like muffins in shape and yummy. And yes, we can even get kishka up here.
And THAT is what I miss most about the city though you can't really get that any more down yonder ... no coke, PEPSI! :)
Like I said, New York used to be interesting ... now it's an extension of Anaheim.
Correction: that's Anaheim....with an interesting subway system....:-)
I flapped my gums here a few weeks ago suggesting that the Anaheim subway replace that silly "tram" idea for 42nd street - unlike Dizzyland, Rudyland has buildings that are actually tall enough for a monorail to do a "mezzanine" number ... but feh, nobody cared. :)
But ya gotta admit, turning New York Chitty into Velveetaland was one dumbass idea. Heh.
Correction: that's Anaheim....with an interesting subway system....:-)
Oh ... yeah ... now I get it ... don't mind me, our little software thing is involved in internet security and privacy issues and I spent all night (still awake after 30 hours) dealing with a rash of brand new trojan horses, ending up crashing through so many "nod-out windows" that my eyes are glazed open and have been for hours.
I've become a cowpie zombie (sing your best Glen Campbell here) "Like a cowpie zombie ... strum strum ..." yeah, great headlights on that D train. Yeah, we cool ...
What headlights? Most of the prewar D trains I rode on were mostly R-4s or R-1s, none of which had headlights. Now, THAT was fun!
Even better when the car lights were out too. No pesky glare on the windows. Heh.
I rode on such an E train on July 1, 1968, of all days. The first car was dark, although IIRC it did have headlights.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose ... truth be told, when I was running light in the reverse direction at rush, I'd often go hit the breakers and cut out the doors just to be left alone. Especially when I had a cranky day. There were nine other cars after all. I'd always let the kids ride up front though - they seemed to really enjoy it and as long as they stayed quiet and stared ahead without too much chatter, I could get my winks in the cab on the return trip. Heh.
You messed up your Yiddish "when any goyim knows" should have read "when any goy knows" You used the plural rather than the singular. 8^>
Sorry, we tend to gather in groups of ten or more. :)
L'cheim ...
Oh, A minyan :^>
B'Shalom
Yeah, my spelling goes all to hell when I've been up too late. :)
Whenever I come back to the city, it's as if I never left. While I never lived in NYC, I've been there so many times it lends an air of familiarity. To me it's a great place to visit, but I'm not so sure I'd want to live there. Now if they could just speed up the trains a tad...
Well Fred, there may be hope for you yet.... Perhaps one day, we'll meet face to face. You're on good terms with Doug, so that's a good thing. Imagine us being on the same side, seeing eye to eye, wouldn't that be something? One never knows what the future might bring.
At least all of the folks had a great time. Trains is the way to go, NOT POLTICS.
-Stef
You're right Stef. And we didn't bring up politics one time on our trip around the rails. It was all good fun and cheer. I did try to get ahold of you on this site to tell you I would be in the Bronx on Saturday. I saw some of the North Bronx and it was real nice, just as many of you said. You know what? My wife believes that my feelings about the Bronx might have stemmed from my dislike of the Yankees, who always beat the Brooklyn Dodgers in the World Series when I was a kid. That could be. At any rate, the Kingsbridge section I saw was very impressive. And yes, I really liked Doug. He is an enthusiastic guy and real positive. He was fun to be around. I hope when I come back for another trip we can railfan with an even larger group.
Have a great week
Sea Beach Fred
I walked quite a bit around the Bronx when I was seeing the last of my mom last March, and stayed at her apartment near Gun Hill/Eastchester Rd. Rode trains and busses everywhere,walked from Wheeler (Einstein) Hospital to the apartment, there to Westchester Sq. many times, across Tremont to Bruckner Expwy. area, many times was out between 8 PM and ll PM, no problems at all. Did some walking in the Fordham area at dusk, changed from train to bus at Simpson [still concerned because of the name the area had] but no problems.Rode a couple of buses thru Highbridge where I grew up, good enough I guess but not impressive. Some areas are quite nice but thankful that the Bronx has indeed come back. Noplace, anywhere, is perfect nor totally safe. In the 70's I'd never believe it could ever be good again. But for the most part it happened.
Well if you say it Big Ed, then I buy it. But I did see for myself and as I told Stef I was impressed with the part of Kingsbridge I saw. I walked around for close to two hours so I saw quite a bit. Some of those hills were pretty challenging. I wish I could have seen Riverdale, but maybe next timne.
New 13th Street Hoboken to West 38th Street ferry service started Monday with a boat leaving every half hour from 6 AM. $6 one-way fare. Story in Monday's online Jersey Journal.
The rollsign page has been updated. It now features readings that have covered over original readings. What you would do is roll your mouse over the readings listed in the about frame and the sign changes to what's on top of it! Cool, huh?
R36 #9346
That IS cool. I really like it. Good work!
BTW, comparing the R68 signs with the R-32 et al. reminded me of a really big deficit of the R68 signage--by providing only the route letters (no "Q-6th Ave./Brighton" etc.) they deprive the public of a big piece of info. They could at least make up for it by providing a bit more information of the South destination signs--i.e., instead of "Coney Island" they should have "Coney Island via Sea Beach," "Coney Island via West End," and so on.
I was just reading all those "Daily News" threads and I had a question about capacity. Everybody was throwing around numbers like 40tph etc, but I was wondering what exactly they were referring to. Is it 40 tph per track 40 tph per direction or tph per line or 40 tph per route. If you really want to improve capacity I'm sure you could do it with creative uses of CTC (like what Metro North and NJT does).
The "track capacity" that I'm referring to is the theoretical maximum number of trains per hour that single track can safely handle without any train being encumbered by the signal system. The "maximum" implies that this is in a single direction.
This figure is a function of the trains' acceleration, its maximum stopping distance from its maximum speed, the minimum allowable distance between the back of a train and the front of its follower, signal latency and station dwell time.
The contribution to a CTC vs. CTBC or automatic train operation or wayside signals is in the influence for signal latency - which also includes operator reaction time. It is generally the least significant quantity, numerically.
I was thinking that for the Lexington Ave line (6/5/4 right?) where I believe that there are 2 levels of tracks (?) they chould build 2 more tracks and install island platforms or a second set of wall platforms and run 2 sets of local trains. The easiest way to relieve congestion is to add more lanes.
they chould build 2 more tracks and install island platforms or
a second set of wall platforms and run 2 sets of local trains.
That's an excellent solution in search of a problem. :-)
The local trains are not overcrowded; the express trains are.
Oh, even easier, just add one or two extra express tracks. This way you can have Super Expess trains that like only stop at GCT and BB. With even just a single extra track you can run peak directional service. It would probably be a lot cheaper than a full 2nd ave subway. Is there any reason the Lex line shrinks to a 2 track ROW? Is there room in the middle of the local tracks for extra express tracks?
Is there any reason the Lex line shrinks to a 2 track ROW
Yes
Is there room in the middle of the local tracks for extra express tracks?
Nope.
What is the reason they can't add two extra tracks on the side of the lower level?
What is the reason they can't add two extra tracks on the side of the lower level?
The upper Lex was built as a tunnel not cut and cover.
[Oh, even easier, just add one or two extra express tracks.]
It would be a lot cheaper just to lengthen the express stations in Manhattan. For that matter, they could run 11 car trains in the current stations and let them hang over -- not elegant, but it would help while they worked on a long term solution. Then too, the Metro North tracks have plenty of capacity and are just a block away -- they could be used to divert some traffic that would otherwise go to the Lex, and to offer some interesting new services as well. But all of this is moot if they're going to throw away rolling stock.
I hate to say it, but I don't think the problem here is that there aren't solutions; the problem is that the people who have the power to do something about the overcrowding don't give a damn.
Mike, do work for the Port Authority? Are you behind the concept to twin the Goethals Bridge? Seriously, adding more lanes is usually only a temporary solution. You've heard, " If you build it, they will come"? If you add more capacity, there will be a short period where you will have empty space, even at peak times. Eventually, hearing of the room, people will shift their commuting patterns to fill it and then overfill it.
If you build enough lanes you'll have the perfect capacity for the amount of users.
I forgot which bridge, the Yellowstone or Whitestone, had the other built to reduce the crowding on the first bridge. The result. Two bridges with even worse traffic than the single one.
today around 12:00 pm i was waiting on the uptown 6 platform at 51/lex ave. i wanted to ride an R-142A but i didn't have time to wait for it. i got on the St. Louis Car R-29. immaculate condition, nearly rust free. When i got inside, the interior was sooo weird! what was weird about it? their was stainless steel panels on the inside, missing strap hangers and vents! the stailnless steel panels lined the top of the windows along side the doors and on the walls of the motorman's cab. the pole scheme mimicked what is now on the R-62's. it was car #8660. the redesigned interior made seem so more modern than than the other Redbird cars, has anyone seen something like this?
That's 8660, the only one that was done like that. It was apparently a test, as it was done when Morrison Knudsen rebuilt them (I first saw it in 1986), but they decided not to do all the other cars to that extent. I wished it stayed on the #2 (I could tell that the #6 redbirds were on the 2 before by the green stickers under the yellow), because it was so much like the new R-62's coming in (which neither the 2 0r 5 were getting)
Yeah, I've seen that car too, it is pretty neat. Much like finding the bench seat or black floor R-62(a)s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't know how common it is, but I was on an R-33 or R-36 (it was on the '7') yesterday which had an all-red floor. Usually, the floors are two-tone, that beige and red, or light blue. Not usually all-red.
Another anomoly on the 7: R-36WF #9576-7 (and maybe others) are still painted light blue around the windows inside the car, instead of the typical GOH beige.
They also still have rubber borders around the rollsigns.
Many of the WF R-36s also have mainline doors; i. e., doors whose windows are set higher and do not line up with the picture windows the way the original door windows do. I noticed this last fall. The R-33 singles still have their original doors.
I never noticed this, I'll have to check. Thanks!
I've never seen that one.
One of the R62's (or are they R62A's?) on the shuttle, back in the early 90's, had bench seating. Seats were brightly colored, as on any other R62, but passengers weren't forced to fit inside the usual narrow seats. This was on the train on the middle track (2, no?), at the east end. It's not there anymore. Is it still around?
Yes, those cars, I believe there are 4 of them, run on the 4 train.
Peace,
ANDEE
5 of them. Car #s: 1586-1590.
bench seating is still available on select Kawasaki R-62 cars on the 4 line. its hard to catch one but you will eventually run into one with that type of seating. i find it comfortable and upright. it makes me feel comfortable and less slouch like.
The Illinois Railway Museum has approved and budgeted a 2 car Redbird purchase, and assuming the TA lets them have it without an asbestos fiasco, maybe that pair, or that car should make up half the pair that they acquire.
I'm not sure if you are serious, but that raises an interesting
museum philosophy question: do you preserve the oddballs or the
typical car? If you could preserve just one example of a Lincoln
Head one cent piece, would it be the zinc 1943 penny?
If these cars are built according to the married pair principle requiring the preservation of two cars to form the smallest working train unit possible you can do both: preserve the single oddball car and a single ordinary car. If these cars weren't built according to the married pair principle and you can only preserve one then...you have a difficult decision to make...
I think IRM wants R26's. I think the masterpiece is an R29. They could probably mess with the link-bars to mix-match. Are R26 pairs Catholic or Protestant ?
R-26s are Protestant, even though prior to 1991, they were Catholic.
Why R-26s for Illinois? The cars were built by American Car and Foundry. ACF passenger equipment is rare out there.
The asbestos issue may in fact affect the purchase. I've talked to a Branford colleague (not one of our posters here), who has said the TA wasn't selling any subway car to anyone. R-26s are apparently out of the question, because they're heavily covered with asbestos. R-33 Mainline Cars on the other hand, might be a possibility. As the person explains, they aren't heavily covered with that stuff, and could go through a light asbestos abatement program. I wonder if IRM would settle for 33s instead?
What will ultimately happens is anyone's guess, as things are subject to change.
-Stef
What the hell was I thinking of? I meant to say that the R-26s are Catholic at Present, but were Protestant prior to 1991. I think my brain is like fluff right about now....
You're forgiven, my son
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-26s and R-28s were originally Protestant married pairs, with couplers at the blind ends. During GOH, they converted to Catholicism, receiving drawbars. The R-29s and up were Catholic pairs right from the start.
Did you pick up that expression on "Catholic and Protestant" married pairs from my book "They Moved The Millions"? I learned it from a friend I had who was a TA car supervisor originally from the IRT at the Lenox Ave. Main shop and later at 207 St. when the IRT shop was closed. I never heard anyone else use it and wondered if that was an expression known to others outside the car shops. Just FYI and IIRC the R27/30 were also "Protestant". Pretty dated expression now, as few of any religion seem to care about church feelings on divorce.
Seems everything's "Catholic" now. They aren't even teaching us this distinction in class now, because it is basically forgotten about. (Its only mention in class was by me when I showed everyone that the R-30's used as school cars had couplers on the #2 ends.)
It's true that many Catholics don't practice. In fact, since many people saw their parents stick through bad marriages due to church teaching, there seems to have been a total reverse in the younger generations, where those from that background, especially from Latin American and European countries who discover the "freedom" here, are more likely to get divorces. I've seen this from working in a court record room counter).
Mainline Protestants have always been liberal in this area, but evangelical or fundamentalist (conservative) Prostestants (myself included) are generally more strict than the Catholics ever were (at least they granted annulments). But of course, many of us slip too (such as singer Amy Grant)
So the expression is truly outdated.
We're still talking about subway trains, right?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The catch is this: if you marry in the Catholic church and subsequently divorce, you cannot remarry in the church unless you get an annulment (or your ex-spouse dies). If you don't get an annulment, your only option is a civil ceremony and if you do so, you become "estranged" from the church; i. e., you cannot receive communion or have your confession heard. Many people feel this is unfair, that they're being punished for something that isn't always their fault.
Wonder how many of the odd couple R-32s were granted annulments.:-)
Oh, how about the one that had the sex change? It would be barred from either Catholic or conservative Protestant Churches (the liberal mainlines would accept it though! :-)
One had a sex change and is numbered out of the normal R32 range
That would only have to be #3348. It's the only R32 I know that fits that description.
IIRC 3669 became 3668 or vice versa after its mate was wrecked.
Steve see my previous post; yes that is correct; current #3669 is ex #3668 after Malbone Street II wreck of December 1, 1974 wrecked the original #3669 - bent the frame and put a huge dent in the side.
wayne
That is correct- R32 #3348 is ex #3659.
Shall we replay the Odd Couples list again?
wayne
Only #3628 and (ex)#3668 were granted annulments as their respective spouses died. They have since given (ex)#3668 a name and gender change, making it #3669 so that it could be mated with #3628.
wayne
I still haven't seen 3348 in its present reincarnation. Maybe this fall I'll get lucky.
Yes, I have doen my homework. Notice that the R27/30 in their latter day were always in mismatched pairs.
Neither. They are Jewish.
Yes and no. The MTA preserved R-7 1575 because it was the prototype for the R-10 series. However, 8660 didn't lead to anything new, since it was a semi-copy of already-arrived R-62 interiors instead of the prototype for them, so it's historic value is less.
And as far as I.R.M. goes, yes they do want an R-26/28 pair, since they were made by Illinois-based A.C.F, while 8660 and the other R-29s were made by St. Louis Car.
The 1943 Lincoln cent was made of steel and coated with zinc. A magnet will attract it.
I'm surprised to hear the IRM is interested in buying them. They usually don't acquire any equipment except those that ran in the midwest...unless it's the same class. For example, IRM has two MBTA PCC cars, still marked for the D line, that will eventually be repainted and relettered for Chicago Surface Line equipment.
R-29 Car No. 8660 is a very interesting Redbird indeed. Did this car also have the molded plastic seats like the R-62s or did they keep the ebnch seats instead.
BMTJeff
Bench. I have a picture of it here (10.2-16).
The interior of R-29 No. 8660 is very interesting indeed. All they would have needed to do was to install the molded plastic seats and then you would have an interior that resembles the R-62s and the R-62As.
BMTJeff
Well, I don't think the rollsigns are R62-style, are they?
:-) Andrew
No, they are "regular" style.
Peace,
ANDEE
Is there a list somewhere of cars that don't quite fit the usual style, like the ones mentioned in this thread?
It is possible that there is a list of cars that don't fit the usual style somewhere. You might try to contact the website host for information.
BMTJeff
The SIR GE R/44s, the GE r/32s, the bench type R/62s,
please add as needed.
avid
I've thought it was common practice for a TA to redo an interior of at least one car in a fleet. SEPTA during the '70s was the king of oddball interiors (especially with the PCC fleet). So to have one redbird with a non-standard interior is not that unusual to me.
...how about painted on signs?
Noticed that at least some of the Franklin Shuttle cars the "S/Franklin Avenue/Prospect Park" is painted on the windows.
Is it true the T/O keeps a paint scraper, paint can and stencil in his cab, just in case they have to extend service to Coney Island on a GO?
Sounds like a possible invitation for graffiti. And only a very few lines have rolling stock so comitted they can actually paint the information on! The Franklin Shuttle, sure. And maybe the 42 St shuttle, and the (7) and perhaps the (L).
:-) Andrew
I thought equipment on 42nd can also run on the 3 at any time.
Maybe so. I was just guessing.
:-) Andrew
It can because at times when you ride the TS-GCT Shuttle they have the strip maps on the ceiling for the (3).
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The L could share cars with the J and M. I've seen car 4444 on the L, and hear reports that it was wunning on the J a couple of months ago. Also, when the Williamsburg Bridge was under construction a few years ago, the entire fleet on the M line was a few 4-car trains of R40 slants. They were all from ENY.
>I've seen car 4444 on the L, and hear reports that it was wunning on the J a couple of months ago.
It's sitting at the bumping block of track 45 in 207th St. now. (We went from Lefferts to the car wash and back today and yesterday). It looks like it has new trucks. Next to it are wrecked car 1369, and the Mets/Yankees R-142 (6311), and the 110A are nearby. Also, there are no 143's there, as someone asked, but the 110B is outside also, along with severl other 142/A's.
Yes, all of the Eastern Div lines interchange R-40m/42 equipment, (In the beginning, they tried to keep them all separate, and the 40m's seemed to be only on the Z, and the L had the higher numbered 42's which were the Coney Island rebuilds, which weren't painted as well inside.)
The L also can't have painted signs because there are turnback points for G.O's (Myrtle, Eastern Pkwy, etc), si it too needs changeable signs. The Franklin Shuttle always uses the same two terminals, plus, it is the only line to use 2 car R-68's, so it must use the same trains.
Well it isn't painted on, it's a plastic thingy, but difficult to peel off.
There only 10 R-68's that are used for the Shuttle. these cars do not run any where else because they are the only cars not coupled into 4 car units. They stations north of Prospect Park can only fit on more than two 75 foot cars. They dont let trains of two cars to go on the Brighton Line South of Prospect Park. When Shuttle cars are replaced, Coney Island Yard will send up 4 Cars. The Train Operators will cut the two cars that are left up there and then add up to the cars that have to go to yard and bring them back. If the signs get marked up there is a car cleaner that gos up there to clean the one train that runs there and the others (The one that is layed up and the one that is used as a gap train=an extra train that serves as a back up in case one of the trains is taken out of service for any reason.)
This past weekend they did the car swap from the CI Yard. You had the two trainsets in service, one laid up (Gap) in the station and one out on the local tracks before the interlocking. I didn't see the move, I assume when they went back to one train headway they would make the move back to CI.
I don't think that's paint. I think it's a prefabricated sign with some kind of plastic covering it on the interior side. It's the same view on the interior and exterior view, including the (S) bullet on the right-hand side in the exterior view! I have a picture of one of those signs here (10.2-25, near the bottom of the page I've linked on this page).
I recently heard that in the IRT, the "swipe on-swipe off" system for signing on the payroll is currently in use. Is this true? And if so, what are the penalties and/or allowances for latenesses?
Just interested.
I know somebody that works for the MTA and lives in the Bronx. Here's the E-Mail adress.
Glenn6398@aol.com
OK.
I know the guy. He's not an A Division Train Operator; he works in the B Division and probably wouldn't be able to answer ZMan's question.
A word of advice to all: don't post someone's e-mail address without his or her permission.
David
I spook to him about 2 Days ago. He did not tell me anything that he works at what division he works for.
D R40S #4200
Where do these rumors come from? To the best of my knowledge, no terminal in the A division is set up for swiping onto the payroll, although we keep hearing that it will appear at VanCortlandt and White Plains soon. Can I infer from your question that this system is not in use in the B Division as we in the A keep hearing?
Ugh, rumors are the pits. No Alex, we don't have "swipe on/off" either.
And the longer it takes to install for both divisions, the better.
Check your TWU contracts - STATE employees (PEF, CSEA, etc) have a provision that PROHIBITS "timeclocks" ... instead a time SHEET is required under penalty of imprisonment for misrepresentation but actual timeclocks (which a swipe system WOULD be) is a violation of state labor contracts and given that MTA is a state "authority" while not quite a state "agency" might have similar prohibitions. Time to wake up a steward and ask. :)
Board of Ed, non-mayrol agency with State and Federal funding has time clocks for all "non-professionals". Meaning the teachers don't have to punch but everyone else does.
Yeah, that falls under "home rule" as a city agency. Dunno where the TA stands in all this or how decent a job local 100's been doing over the years but such would be a major problem for a state agency to pull under its own union contracts. But before you get envious, state workers can't march off the job, are entitled to eat all the (ahem) the state's willing to feed them, but that one indignity is a no-no under prevailing contracts. Since I've been out of TWU, I have no idea of what the rules are now but I'd be disappointed if they didn't have a "no time clock" rule ...
Currently, all Cleaners in the system and Car Inspectors in the yards have to punch their card in a timeclock. So it looks like our wonderful predecessors in the TWU gave this one up.
Wow ... then that "swipe-it" rumor just might come to pass then. Sounds like an adminiswig's dream (and probably a "suggestions" cash reward too) ...
I figured that I'd answer this before the question would inevitably pop up.
The red diamonds that are now being placed onto R42 equipment means that the specific two car unit is equipped with an "enabler".
For those of you that do not know what an enabler is, it is a device that is situated on the T/O's console that allows (or gives permission to) the C/R to open the doors. On the unit are two orange buttons that say "Left Platform" and "Right Platform" respectively. They stay lit at all times (even while in operation). The only time that one of the lights will go out is when that specific section of the train is open.
Here is how an enabler system operates:
1) The T/O after making a station stop, presses the button that corresponds with the side of the train to be opened. When the C/R opens the doors, that light goes out on the T/O panel.
2) When the T/O presses the button, the C/R receives an orange light which is located between the Master Door Control and the PA. When the orange light is lit, the MDC is activated and the C/R can open the doors. The light stays lit until the C/R turns the vapor key to the run position. When the key is turned to run, the C/R's orange light goes out and the T/O's orange light goes on whether the doors are locked or not. The T/O still has to wait for the regular white (green on 44/46) indication light to come on before proceeding as the orange lights are not to be used for indication purposes.
The enabler will only operate if all the cars on the consist are enabler equipped. If even one car on the train is not equipped, the enabler will be rendered inactive and the trains doors will operate normally.
What's a C/R ?
The dopey dude in the middle with the funny glasses on.
Just kidding. C/R=Conductor.
How come I've seen C/R operating with no Goggles on during station time?
Any C/R who is not wearing his safety glasses while performing his/her duties is violating the rules and is subject to be disciplined.
Mind you that I personally do not agree with the ruling, but (cue the piano) that's just the way it is, OOOOOOOOO SOME THINGS'LL NEVER CHANGE (twang).
HEY!!!! I resent that. :):) Anyway, the door enablers are coming to the R62's soon.......
It is comimg to all the cars that are not being retired in the next few years.
Robert
Assuming the MTA isn't getting wacky enough to think about running OPTO with R-42 cars, what is the idea behind installing the new system?
The idea is to eliminate the possibility of te doors opening on the wrong side.
Not only that, but if a T/O stops short of the stop marker, perhaps due to a station timer in the middle of a station which doesn't clear, it could save a careless c/r because hopefully the T/O will not push the button (unless both make a big boo-boo)............The first enabler train of R44's has been on the A line for quite a while, another one recently entered service. Now, the R42's are being prepped. Hopefully the new TWU leadership will have something to say. If I as a T/O have to push a button to allow the c/r to open the doors, you are giving me another duty to do and I deserve extra pay. It's like half OPTO!
Well Bill, you do realize that you'll be operating this train next pick. If ya squeeze a couple of pennies out of the TA, lemme know, k?
Well is would have help a C/R on the "E" yesterday. The T/O stop half way into I think 5th ave 53th st. The T/O had the timer in the middle and it did not clear. The C/R did not even look and open the doors. So this system would have help in this cases.
The conductor pointed out the window and found a bogus "lucky board" in front of him? Probably would have been a help but ya gotta wonder why he opened up at all with no jail bars in sight.
So now they're putting this nonsense on the J line?
I can't stand the two enabler R44 trains that are running in revenue service now on the A line. And they have the nerve to spread that cancer to other lines? And on SMEE equipment?!?!
Just when I thought the TA couldn't outdo itself. . .
Um.........that Train Dispatcher's title is starting to look a little better to me right now.
You ain't never lied, zman. For me, that ATD position just gained another point.
Well there are now four or five R44's with the enable inserivce. I had one the two Saturday. The funny thing is that when the door open on the on side the bells would ring, but they would not ring when closing.
Robert
Even in consists not fully equipped, the two buttons stay lit.When the c/r opens up on a particular side, that button will go dark. BTW, the train that's fully enabled had trouble at Marcy Ave during the p.m. rush.The doors wouldn't open up!
When the enabler doesn't operate, I just plop the Daily News on top of it to block those damn orange lights. They are such a pain in the ass to look at while you're attempting to operate.
With that train that wouldn't open up, well.....haha. Those R40/42's always have something going wrong anyway. Last week, I had to take a southbound J train out of service during the morning rush at Essex St because the brakes didn't want to release on the W'burg Bridge. I finally got them to release after 5 minutes. Normally the passengers on a train that's fully packed and is forced to discharge would be extremely heated. Funny, when I told them that the train is out of service due to bad brakes, nobody uttered a single word.
Did you have a Coney Island rebuilt R42 at your operating position? Usually when you are taking little nips of brake and releasing continuously like on the bridge, that'll happen with that junk!
>>>Did you have a Coney Island rebuilt R42 at your operating position? Usually when you are taking little nips of brake and releasing continuously like on the bridge, that'll happen with that junk!<<<
Mike, YA NAILED THAT ONE ON THE HEAD!!!
It would be nice if the yardmasters in E.N.Y. yd could bury those cars as much as possible.
Especially when you're reading the chapters on the Malbone Wreck over the PA for them before dumping them on the platform. Nothing like motivated geese. :)
Lol. "Nothing like motivated geese", Selkirk that's a good one!
Heh. You're welcome ... pity the R1/9's didn't have PA's ... the ride would have beat anything Howard Stern could have come up with. Back in my days, the geese would be banging on the cab door begging to get off when I was operating. :)
All the R142's have them installed. Now if a C/R opens on the wrong side the whole crew is liable and it also more dwell time in the station. On the 2 they have already cut the running time and TA knows that the 142's don't accelerate as fast as the redbirds so when operating the 142's all you hear is "where did you lose your time?", plus they are adding more timers along the run.
They cut the running time, they're adding timers, and the R142's have enablers which cannot keep the train on schedule.
Looks like the #2 line superintendent won't be getting a bonus (haha).
Where are they adding timers? Not on the 7th Ave. straightaway, I hope.
In the past year they have put timers at the following locations: south of 96st on 3 track, entering East Tremont on 3 track, entering 238 on 3 track and between Pelham pkwy. and Bronx Park East on 2 track.
I thought that the R42's were going to be retired before the R32's. If that's true, why aren't they putting them in the 32's and leaving the 42's alone?
ZMAN,
I can't understand this. A conductor opens the doors on the wrong side of the train ? How's that ?
A few years ago, I was on a train of R-68s on the (N) northbound at Times Square. We were on the express track, possibly track work on the local. Suddenly, the doors opened on the side of the columns then quickly closed. People were calling out "hey,hey,hey !" Luckily, nobody fell out who may have been leaning on the door.
This has to be unheard of years ago. What conductor would open the doors on the wrong side knowing loss of their job that pays the rent and feeds the family ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Its been happening for many years, but more so recently.
One word causes this: INATTENTION.
Sometimes the C/R comes to work really tired, or is simply thinking about something other than work, or any other item related to inattention to duties.
All of this became magnified a few years ago when painters, maintainers and other workers in similar titles were layed off and then reassigned to front line titles such as C/R, T/O, Station Agent, etc. The reassigned C/R's hated their new job and purposely sabotaged their positions thinking that "if I'm a bad C/R, I'll get my old job back". Well they did, but in turn it ruined things for the remaining C/R's and T/O's. Because of them, the silly system of pointing at the C/R's indication board started.
Of course mechanical problems or vandalism could be the culprit as well for wrong side openings, but on the most part it's the fault of the C/R. With the enabler, the TA is looking to sharply reduce if not eliminate wrong side door openings.
Okay we pull into a station, "curr-shhh" as the T/O let go of the handle in full service as we are still rolling (this is a "MOTORMAN").
We wait and wait (R42), C/R "Hit the Button"....
Waiting as T/O is busy pushing his lineup button with his yellow stick (ha and you thought button pushing wouldn't be coming to the Subway?).
C/R "Push the Button to enable"
T/O Pushes the button but opps, he hits the wront one..
What happens? Can the T/O just hit the other button? Is there a reset or penality time before the MDC is turned on?
Now me and 200 other pax are pounding on the doors to get out, opps pax pulls the cord, doesn't want to miss his stop...
A few days ago ridingon the R train, at Court ST the train dumps after arriving in station, that was wierd, then when we was at Whitehall, The train makes some wierd sound the doors open but the train is still slightly moving forward, but significantly, suddenly i hear the brakes applied and train stopped. This is no lie and it was on an R-46, Anyone else had this kind of experience?
>>>T/O Pushes the button but oops, he hits the wrong one..
What happens? Can the T/O just hit the other button?<<<
Yup. There isn't any penalty time to wait or any other restrictions that I am aware of.
Well, perhaps someone else can answer this also.
How does this missle-launching two-phase commit system work,
electrically? Are they using some of the spare trainlines
that were added with the 4th row of the electric portion?
It would only be an assumption since I have yet to see the system on the R-42s. The system on the R-44s use spare wires so I suppose it would seem logical. Personally speaking, I think that anyone who believes something is foolproof underestimates the fool. Seems to me that it would be more cost effective to hire conductors with an attention span that's longr than.................what was I saying?
Seems to me that it would be
more cost effective to hire conductors with an attention span that's longr than....
My thoughts exactly. Being able to open the doors at the
correct location is fairly fundamental to the duties of c/r.
Now, what happens at a terminal when the m/m brings a train on
the stand and goes out the crew door? Is the c/r unable to open
all the doors until the next m/m pushes the button?
You have a point Jeff, they do this every day at Brighton Beach. Someone brings a train in from the layup tracks. Dumps it use the crew door or if on opposite platform I've even see them lift the seat and open the door via the handle on the door motor and walk off.
>>>Is the c/r unable to open
all the doors until the next m/m pushes the button?<<<
Correct, because the MDC has not been activated by the T/O yet. Now what may happen is that the switchman before leaving the train pushes the button to avoid this scenario.
No the system only works when the reverser is put into forard posions. Other then that the door will open up if the botton are not pressed.
Robert
>>>Seems to me that it would be more cost effective to hire conductors with an attention span that's longer than.......<<<
Even if you hire C/R's with the best attention spans in the universe, mistakes will still happen.
What happens (as I'm sure you're aware of) is that a C/R simply falls into a "zone" after doing the same thing day after day after day......
It happens to everyone, the catch is that you have to "wake up" before you do something really stupid.
How often did that sort of thing happen in the olden days when conductors assumed the position between cars? It would be pretty obvious if they climbed up on the wrong side. Whoops!
As someone who did it, you'd know your route but you could still be surprised every now and then. Barrelling down CPW into 59th for example, you'd go and get ready, take the gate down to climb out on the right side (looking south) and then suddenly notice you had hit the switch and were going over to the local track ... a few expletives later, you'd put the gate back, go to the other side and get the gate there and climb out.
But when you were outside the car, you would pay a lot more attention to what you were doing and where you were just because it was dangerous for YOU ... and you had to climb out, see platform and lucky board before you put your fingers under the bottles to yank so I would imagine it was pretty damned rare. I never opened up the wrong side in the time I was a conductor though ... though it wasn't uncommon to find myself on the wrong side after a switch when I thought I was on the right side. Opening up took so many steps though, you had it right by the time you had your fingers in place to do your thing.
How soon did you have to assume the position? Obviously, you had to be ready to open up when the train stopped, but was there a rule as to how early you had to climb up on the step plates? When the R-7/9s appeared on the Canarsie, I would watch the conductor, and he wouldn't assume the position until the train was in the station and slowing down.
You wanted to be between the bottles as it stopped, but to get ready to climb out there, you'd want to get the gate out of your way and hooked into its holes so you could get out there. I would normally wait until we were in the station like most anybody else but the faster you got the gate stowed, the faster you could do the car monkey thing. Since you had to get the bottom part into its hole and then the top (and with the cars moving, you wouldn't always sink the putt first try) I always made a point of doing that before the train got into the stop. The gates were a much bigger pain than the actual climb and grab. And having to put it back, then do the one on the other side owing to a surprise ... well, expletives were the first thing that came to mind when you'd get switched by surprise.
I wonder if there were any conductors who wished they could just stay perched on the step plates if a stretch of several consecutive stations with platforms on the same side were coming up, such as the 7 local stops along CPW southbound.
Nah ... the rules required you step down and close the gate. You had to at least step down if it was a short dash to keep them from stepping off the car and under it. Don't get me wrong, most of us loved our gig with the TA, but we weren't THAT nuts. Well ... maybe. :)
Zman - mistakes do happen! We all know that. It's the type of mistakes that concern me. The people who open up on the wrong side never seem to forget how many vacation days they have. They never seem to forget which attractive ladies get on at what stations. They never forget on which Thursday their check comes. They never forget to put in for 'late clears'. Despite all this collective knowledge & wisdom, they forget to observe the platform, they forget to point at the C/Rs boards, they even forget to verify that there is a platform under them before they open up. Training is not the answer! Seems to me we need to raise the standards, pay more and get people who understand that they are responsible for customer's safety.
One of the things that made me go out for conductor back in 1970 was the INSANELY HIGH prevailing wage at the time. Better than $250 a week when that kind of money really meant something. I've looked at what's passing for TA payscales these days and well ... you DO get what you pay for. :)
Let me clarify my previous statement. I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, think that all NYCT conductors fit into this catagory. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Most perform their duties in a highly professional manner day after day. The same goes for train operators. The 'door enabling system' at the heart of this thread was not designed for them. It's for the extremely small minority of employees who can not focus their limited attentions on their duties. I don't think that simply raising salaries is the answer. I do think that raising the job requirements, raising the standards and then paying people who are worth more to do the job the way it should be done, is the answer.
Having said that - this is clearly not simply a NYCT problem.
Tuesday AM, my LIRR train made its scheduled stop at Hillside Facility. The engineer overshot by about 3/4 of a car and did not bother to hit the 'door hold switch' in the cab. Hence, the doors opened and the LIRR employees standing by the first door portal were suprised to say the least.
>>>. It's for the extremely small minority of employees ...
Who don't belong in the buisness
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry guy, didn't mean to make it sound like I was insulting the crews. Heaven forfend having been part of the dog and pony show once. I was lamenting how the payscale for the gig, which was once of the finest paying jobs in the city has gotten like working for the state. NYCTA folks used to enjoy a very good wage in exchange for the right to be hauled off a train and beaten about the head by supervisors for small indiscretions and being subjected to such silliness as not POINTING at a "lucky board" when they can see it.
In other words, I was saying that "salary should be commesurate with the amount of crap you've gotta take on the job" and when that goes up, the paycheck should also. There's morons in all sorts of career paths and eventually most of them get promoted OUT OF THE WAY of what needs to be done, or they end up realizing one way or another that they need a different gig. And again, I'm not intending anything personal here.
And yes, I agree on your observations of work quality vs. salary as well but it's been my experience that when the price goes up, you can be a lot more fussy among the larger pool of potential employees since you have a larger pool to begin with. Reading that the TA had to hire motormen off the street this goround does seem to suggest that there aren't enough people willing to do it from inside the usual promotion paths. That's unheard of at least to me and suggests that the "starting salaries" are too low and are thus resulting in folks being inducted into the service that wouldn't have cut it prior. That's where I was going with that rant.
Granted, I've been out of there for 30 years myself but still consider going to work for the Transit Authority as one of the better jobs I had, even if I really wasn't up to it myself and put up with a LOT of crap. I still get the warm fuzzies remembering hauling D trains out at 5:30am. :)
Seems to me that it would be more cost effective to hire conductors with an attention span that's longr than.................what was I saying?
The NYCT management is demonstrating that it feels that two people are required to safely determine which side of the train to open. If this is the case, then they lied to the arbitrator when they said that only one person was necessary to safely open train doors. There are two sets of doors regardless of how long or short the train is. This retrofit is an admission that OPTO is by definiton unsafe. TheY cannot logically install this new important feature for safety and still claim that only one person is required door operation.
When will they get around to removing those full width cabs, now that they logically killed OPTO. :-)
When will they get around to removing those full width cabs, now that they logically killed OPTO.
NEVER.. The operators like them !!
I must admit that I had the same thought. The two positions (door enabling and OPTO) are in opposition to each other. On the other hand, the same door enabling can be accomplished with technology. A transponder under the platform could be used to enable the doors on the proper side of the train while also making sure that the entire train is platfomed properly.
I Might head to Waashinton D.C. If I do I will get photos of the metro cars (I Will try to get photos of the CAF cars)Plus I will have a website about my trip it will be redy after vacation.
CAF cars are not in service yet and may not be by April...
Field trip is April 21...
Since the database crashed, I am reposting this info:
To all,
The plan for the Washington DC SubTalk Field Trip on April 21, 2001 will be as follows. In the unlikely event of any further, you shall receive e-mail notification if you are on the e-mail list. Updates will be posted here as well. E-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com to be added to the update list.
Those coming from up north will arrive on train 79 at Union Station at 9:50 AM. We will meet at Gate G in Union Station, outside of the Ladies' Room. Train 79 leaves New York (Penn) at 6:05 AM and Philadelphia (30th Street) at 7:43 AM. IF Train 79 is more than 3-5 minutes late, our departure from Union Station will be delayed by as many minutes as train 79 is late. I will probably be at Gate G with a cardboard sign reading "SUBTALK," more on that closer to the date. While we will wait for train 79, if you are in the DC/Baltimore area, do not be late because once Train 79 arrives, we leave.
Once we meet, we will head to the Metro and take the following trains. The times posted are the times the trains will run. This is totally flexible. If we see the CAF cars, we will change the plans as needed.
Red Line Lv Union Station 10:15 Ar Fort Totten 10:23
Green Line Lv Fort Totten 10:31 Ar Greenbelt 10:43
Green Line Lv Greenbelt 10:54 Ar Branch Avenue 11:41
Green Line Lv Branch Avenue 11:56 Ar L'Enfant Plaza 12:15
Yellow Line Lv L'Enfant Plaza 12:27 Ar Pentagon City 12:35
At that point, we will exit the system and will have lunch at the Fashion Centre at Pentagon City Food Court. The food court has a variety of food from pizza to hamburgers to Chinese. Everyone should be able to fill up the appetite formed after railfanning for 2.5 hours. There is about 45 minutes in which to get food, eat it, and use the bathroom. The trip continues with:
Yellow Line Lv Pentagon City 1:34 Ar Huntington 1:48*
Yellow Line Lv Huntington 2:01 Ar King Street 2:04
Blue Line Lv King Street 2:16 Ar Franconia-Springfield 2:27
Blue Line Lv Franconia-Springfield 2:35 Ar Rosslyn 3:03
Orange Line Lv Rosslyn 3:17 Ar Vienna 3:39
Orange Line Lv Vienna 3:47 Ar Metro Center 4:16**
Orange Line Lv Metro Center 4:28 New Carrolton 4:56***
Notes about part 2 of the trip:
*The Huntington branch can be omitted if the group decides we need longer for lunch, train 79 is delayed, or if we happen to see the CAF cars on the Green Line.
**Metro Center is an optional stop. I included it because it is the architectural highlight of the Metro but it can be omitted if we don't want to stop or if we are short on time.
***This is the latest train we should take to guarantee the connection to Amtrak Train 148 at New Carrolton
Train 148 to New York leaves New Carrolton at 5:51 PM and arrives in Philadelphia at 7:31 PM and New York Penn at 9:15 PM.
Photo ops: We will go through 60 of the 83 stations or about 72% of the system. We will most likely have layovers of more than 5 minutes at the following stations allowing for photo ops:
Fort Totten
Greenbelt
Branch Avenue
L'Enfant Plaza
Pentagon City
Huntington
King Street
Franconia-Springfield
Metro Center
Rosslyn
Vienna
New Carrolton
Union Station
Info on what type of film to bring is below.
MORE DETAILS:
What to bring: Camera and film are optional. The only real necessity will be money (details are below) and maybe a jacket. If you don't want to buy food from Amtrak, don't bring too much. You can not eat within the MetroRail system. I strongly do NOT recommend that you bring more than a backpack. If you bring film, 400 is the slowest speed you can use in the subway and get decent photos, I recommend you use 800.
Money: Day passes cost 5 dollars per person and are good all day. We will buy these at Union Station before starting out. Also, you will need to pay for lunch. That will probably cost no more than $20.
Transportation to/from field trip:
By train: You are responsible for getting your own train tickets. Both trains are unreserved. Please read on for instructions on making train reservations:
IF YOU ARE TRAVELING TO/FROM NEW YORK PENN STATION:
Buy a ticket for train 79 (Carolinian) to Washington Union Station. The train should leave New York at 6:05 AM and arrive at 9:50 AM. The date of travel is April 21. This is an unreserved train. For the return trip, buy a ticket for train 148 (NorthEast Direct) FROM NEW CARROLTON, MD to New York. The date of travel is April 21. This is an unreserved train. DO NOT buy a ticket for travel leaving Union Station UNLESS you plan on parting company from the group early. The field trip ends at New Carrolton. Train 148 will leave New Carrolton at 5:51 PM and arrive at New York at 9:15 PM. The round trip cost for these two trains is $136 ($68 one way).
IF YOU ARE TRAVELING TO/FROM PHILADELPHIA 30TH STREET STATION:
Buy a ticket for train 79 (Carolinian) to Washington Union Station. The train should leave New York at 7:43 AM and arrive at 9:50 AM. The date of travel is April 21. This is an unreserved train. For the return trip, buy a ticket for train 148 (NorthEast Direct) FROM NEW CARROLTON, MD to Philadelphia. The date of travel is April 21. This is an unreserved train. DO NOT buy a ticket for travel leaving Union Station UNLESS you plan on parting company from the group early. The field trip ends at New Carrolton. Train 148 will leave New Carrolton at 5:51 PM and arrive at New York at 7:30 PM. The round trip cost for these two trains is $82 ($41 one way).
IF YOU ARE TRAVELING TO/FROM ANY OTHER STATION IN THE NORTHEAST CORRIDOR:
Buy tickets for trains 79 and 148 as needed.
If you are in the DC/Baltimore Area:
Driving directions to outlying Metro Stations are available at Metro's website at www.wmata.com. I was asked by someone in Baltimore where to park and I answered as follows. Greenbelt is the closest to Baltimore but if you drive about 15-20 minutes more, you can reach New Carrolton and you will have your car at the end of the field trip. Parking at New Carrolton is my suggestion. Use the Ride Guide at www.wmata.com (link above) to figure out what time you need to start out on an inbound train to Union Station. You probably want to tell it your arrival time is 9:45 AM (not 9:50).
As of now, there are no contingency plans if Train 79 is extremely late. Please stay tuned for more info!!!
Please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com by 7:00 PM on April 20th to RSVP. It is OK if you do not e-mail me to RSVP, but I would like to know about how many people are coming. Please include in your e-mail how you are getting to and from the field trip. This helps in figuring out who we are waiting for when we begin and how they are coming. Please also e-mail if you think you are coming but you are not sure.
Between now and the field trip, I will send occasional e-mails, the last of which will be the weather forecast and further information on meeting up. E-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com to be added to the e-mail list. Closer to the date, if you wish to describe what you will wear that day, e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com.
We look forward to seeing you and we hope you can make the trip and meet some other SubTalkers! If you have any further questions, e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com.
END
Now, you may have realized there is now HTML in the content above. The reason is that now all the field trip info is posted on my website at http://www.geocities.com/orenstransitpage/subtalkdc.htm. This should make communication easier. Bookmark that page! I will post when I update it. The e-mail list is still running. To join it, e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
www.dvarp.org/newslinks.html provides daily listings of transit-related articles in the Philly, South Jersey, Delaware, and Eastern Pennsylvania press. I am sure there are such news update sites for other regions. Can anyone tell me what they are in your region? Perhaps this info, once compiled, could be added to the FAQ?
The web site http://www.libertynet.org/netis/ provides a detailed examination of the current proposals and the alternatives for a Northeast extension of the Philadelphia Broad Street Subway. In many ways, this line has paralleled the history of the New York Second Avenue Subway: needed, promised, but never materialized.
If the Second Avenue Stubway does get built in the next 15 years, will it be accompanied by a Philadelphia counterpart. What are the feeling of you Subtalkers after you review this proposal.
Anything that gets more mass transit for the riding public gets my approval. Just where did all those cars driven by the commuters from the suburbs supposed to get placed, the sky? Where would you find room for them? More drivers and pedestrians get killed and injured by the automobile than the railroad, but folks just do not get that.
Fewer cars mean less pollution, or do you need a carbon monoxide fix in the morning?
I like it so far. More rail coverage is badly needed. If the Broad Street line is extended I'd like to see additional capital funds dedicated to renovating and improving additional existing stations as well, to revive business centers and housing around key stations, offer ADA access (which also makes the subway shopper- and stroller-friendly).
Great ideas. Some of the Broad Street Subway stations look more like the ruins of a past civilzation that currently used stations. I'd like to see the same kind of redevelopment around the Market-Frankford stations as well. Since a lot of those stations are surrounded by abandoned buildings I'd love to see mass bulldozing followed by new transit-oriented developments.
Aside: Just where did we get the notion that real estate is disposable?
Anyway, I think the extension would help make this happen, because it would bring more traffic through the BSL tunnel, making rehabiitation more important to more people.
Mark
It's nice to see the site has finally been updated after nearly a year, however I don't believe this project will go forward any time soon, so long as SEPTA wastes billions on the SVM in lieu of traditional commuter rail.
My feeling is that the 2nd Avenue subway will never be built. Period. The city will do studies, et al but never put a shovel to the ground.
Amtrak is adding the popular quiet cars to 16 more corridor trains. Quote from Tuesday's Philly Inquirer "Business News in Brief":
"Amtrak expanded its no-cell-phone quiet-car service to 16 more trains on the Northeast Corridor. The first quiet car went into service late last year on the 6 a.m. train from Philadelphia to Washington. "The idea has proven very popular," Amtrak spokeswoman Karen Dunn said. On each of the 22 trains now offering the service, one car is designated quiet and its seats are filled on a first-come basis. Cellular telephone use is permitted on all others, Dunn said."
Which trains?
Before the SubTalk boards went down, I was asking all RTO employees when they pick for jobs in the B Division, and if they've already picked, then what job they picked.
I pick on April 26th. I know that if I'm lucky enough I'll get something on the A line on the AM even if its RDO relief. So I'll be out in the sunshine during the summer (hear that, zman?) months. And I'm not giving up my C line. I'll probably work that on the weekends.
So I'll ask again. When do you pick, and if you picked already, what did you pick?
I pick on 4-19(T/O).I'm going to any section that has a slice of the weekend off even if I have to give up the M line. Good luck with your pick.
Thanks, Mike. :-)
Good luck with your pick as well.
Like giving up the M line is a bad thing! :)
What if the only thing with part of a weekend off is the Extra List?
Well lets see A Division should start picking in late May. Since I have really no time on the job I should be picking in Late July just to stay on the Road Extra List.
All I can hope for is that next pick I can get RDO Relief somewhere.
I doubt you will be picking in late July since the pick is supposed to go into effect on July 1 for the "A" division
I picked on Monday April 2 . PM Switching Coney Island Yard Sat/Sun R.D.O.
Don't worry Cool J. When you get a little more seniority, you'll be able to pick better days off and where you wanna work.
Are you kidding this is what I want not to be on the road. No no lunches, no in and out when you arrive at the the terminal, no being one behind two behind etc. No customers complaing about the service. The only thing that could make it better is getting the fruit to go along with my Saturday Sunday and being able to get Christmas Week Off, this would inable me to be able to pick any vaction week of the year. As long as I dont have to work the road to keep my weekends off I dont pick it. I worked the road 1 pick in the last 4 years. I dont mind taking rides on my own time time just to see whats new or pass some time, but working the road every day is very stressful and when I work the road I only pick an M one tripper. P.S. For those who dont now what it means to get the fruit: All holidays off.
Of course I was kidding Cool J!
You're able to pick a yard job with S/S, and I've gotta hope that I'm able to pick a slot on the BOTTOM of the VR list.
Psst, wanna trade? :)
VEE ARR.
Unless it's all gone then.....
SLOPTO VEE ARR.
May 4, entirely too early in the morning. I want something out of Stillwell/CIY, 95 St (Brighton Beach, Bay Pkway, City Hall, Whitehall, 34/6) on either early AMs or Midnights. If not, I'll stay in the A Div and pick Mid-June on the 1.
Don't forget Alex that with the new pick, you can pick Shuttle jobs on the midnight tour starting out of 21 St-Queensbridge and West 4th Street.
Also there are no jobs starting out of Whitehall, they all start at City Hall on the N mostly, and only on the early AM's. And there's one job a piece starting at WTC on the E at around 5:22am, and at 34-6 on the B at 6:48 am (and boyyyyyy, that job's a doozie!), and there's a few jobs on the Q starting at 57/7.
If I were you, I'd try to get 5 days on the N/Q/W. At the worst, you may see two days at Astoria and three at Stillwell. Of course you may be able to get 4 or even 5 out of STL. Hope it goes AOK. I'm sure that you're a bit tired of the long commute to Van Cortlandt from Staten Island by now.
Do you really think any of the AM jobs will still be open by that time or am I just dreaming?
Personally, I think that you have a much better shot at the late Midnights than you do on the early AM's. See how it goes Alex.
Good luck.
So, zman, you're gonna deprive me of another shot at working with you? The "best in the business"? :-(
I've been going to therapy and anger management for a while, so now so I don't get as upset when they cross trains in front of me. And you won't hear me cussing and fussing all the way up at your position anymore. Besides, with the B being gone on the weekends next pick, it should be nothing but smooth sailing.
Tell me you'll reconsider before the 27th gets here.
>>>I've been going to therapy and anger management for a while...<<<
Oh really? It's more like the Euclid Avenue relay (There I Pee) and anger AT management. C'mon, who d'ya think yer foolin'?
As far as what I'm picking goes, I got hooked onto AM's so thatsa where I'ma staying fa now. (See, told you I can speak Italian). And the only way that I can do that is to pick either VR or AM extra. We'll see how it goes.
what is VR ?
In the RTO section, T/O's and C/R's approximately every 5-6 months have to pick a specific assignment to work for the next pick period (July 1st starts the next pick). The pick begins on a Monday morning with the #1 man in seniority and works it's way down the list.
As a T/O, the first jobs to go are usually either high penalty road jobs (penalty=$), yard switching, station switching and work train (miscellaneous) jobs.
Other than straight jobs, assignments available are:
Extra List--you receive a different assignment in the section that you picked every day. The days off selected are fixed for the length of the pick. Miscellaneous Extra List works similarly.
Vacation Relief "VR"/OPTO VR--you receive a different assignment every week. Assignments are available on all tours in all sections, you simply "bid" on the jobs that you wish to work on for that week. So say that this week you choose to work AM's on the C out of Euclid Av with Fri/sat off, and the next week you choose to work midnights on the A out of Far Rockaway with Mon/Tues off. If you don't want to work a specific job on the bid sheet, then don't bid on it and you won't get it. Regular VR slots number 1 to 70 and are picked on a seniority basis at the start of the pick. Bid sheets come out once a month and cover 4 weeks worth of assignments. #1 VR man gets to bid first, etc. Whatever job that you win on the bid, the days off that the person who normally works the job picked are the same days off that you get for that particular week.
RDO relief (RDO=regular day off)--same as a straight job except you get the "scraps" left behind. RDO relief slots are generally worked by junior men. How RDO relief works:
When someone picks a straight road job, they have to select days off. Say for example, the person selects C-214 with Wed/Thur off. Since all jobs must be covered every day, someone else has to work C-214 on Wed and Thur right? This is where an RDO relief person comes in. An RDO relief's weekly assignment might look like this:
Sun--A 224/ 639am-Far Rockaway
Mon--C 216/ 452am-Pitkin Yard
Tue--L 204/ 518am-Canarsie
Wed--off
Thu--off
Fri--A 215/ 716am-Lefferts
Sat--A 231/ 1007am-Far Rockaway
Whatever assignments and days off an RDO relief person selects at the beginning of the pick are fixed for the length of the pick. RDO relief jobs picked are restricted to one particular section, you cannot hop from one section to another for a specific pick. Sections in the B division are:
North-A/C/H/J/L/M
Queens-E/F/G/R and ALL combination road/switching jobs known next pick as "X" jobs. Regardless of the starting point and line worked of an X job (i.e. an X job working Brighton Beach on the Q line), that job for picking purposes only is considered a Queens section job.
South-B/D/N/Q/W/6th Avenue & Franklin Shuttle jobs.
RDO relief assignments are also available for station switching, yard switching, refuse collector and miscellaneous jobs. Assignments here are also restricted to one particular area as well.
That's it in a nutshell.
When you select your days off (RDO's), all seven possibilities are available being:
Sun/Sat
Sun/Mon
Mon/Tue
Tue/Wed
Wed/Thu
Thu/Fri
Fri/Sat
Each section and tour has a specific allotment of RDO's available, and unlike many other NYCTA departments, you can select whatever days off that you wish with whatever assignment that you like.
RDO selections go in seniority order with Sun/Sat and Sun/Mon the most popular. When all slots are filled for that group of RDO's (i.e. 48 Sun/Sat slots on the AM's in the south section), then no one else can select those particular RDO's for that tour & section involved.
This is why you sometimes hear someone saying that they went PM's to get part of the weekend off. Because if he wants to work in the south, the Sun/Sat, Sun/Mon and Fri/Sat slots may be all gone on the AM's, but they may be available on the PM's or even Midnights.
In Stations wre also have three tours (AM,PM, Nights). Like RDO we have Straight, RDO, Extra and VR. Our VR people pick each week and the list is published on Wed of each week. If an S/A VR does nto pick a job, one is assigned.
in Stations, we also have Lunch relief Jobs (LR) and Night Lunch Relief Jobs(NLR). LR jobs are resposible for escorting employess to/from part-time booths(often with police presence also), opening/closing anti-crime gates (entrances not open 24 hours.) For AM and PM LR jobs, the left-overs are mixed in with often RDO jobs- meaning you can get 3 booths and 2 lunches. For NLR Jobs we also deliver/pick-up internal mail to/from 370 Jay Street to assigned locations. NLRs also take lost property to designated locations. NLR has one twist- there is NLR-RDO where you work left over lunches.
Ex: I may be off Thursday and Friday-- Someone has to weork "my lunch" those days. This goes to NLR-RDO Jobs. If you poick that job you can have up to five different lunchesor as little as three (a pair of two day jobs and a single, a two day job and three singles or five singles.) There is one rub-- let's say you work Monday Night(Simday Overnight) and it is a Holiday. You'd work that job number but follow the instructions listed for "Holiday" which may include different lines/stations/times than the weekday or normal schedule.)
I work NLR and for the last two picks have worked NLR-RDO
I take it the "X" designation is replacing the "V" that was used for jobs like that, since V is becoming a road line. I imagine the new "V" would be apart of the "Queens" section. Is the G becoming apart of the south? (I also thought that B & D would become apart of the north, but I was told it would stay south even though the lines won't be going south anymore.)
Yes, the X is replacing the V designation for exactly the purpose that you had stated. When the connector opens, the Queens section will have the E/F/G/R/V/X.
I should pick on the Second week of the A Division pick. I may stay on the No.6 Line out of Pelham AM's with Sun/Mon off or I may go to the No.1/9 Line.
Didnt I tell you, that iwont be picking for a while.
I'll be going home to Metropolitan, a late PM job with weekends off. My first crack at operating over the new WillyB structure, and by then, some, if not all, new signals should be in service on the West End Line. After 26 months on the E, it will be time for some fresh air, less cab time, fewer total hours pounding the road, fewer passengers and questions, and a more comfortable motormans seat on the R40M/42 cars.
I don't blame you Bill, but that's one bit of a shift swing that you're doing there.
So far, the West End is still using the old signals, but that of course could change by July 1.
As far as the Williamsburg Bridge goes, it's easy. Wrap it going up hill, and when you reach the GT area, just take all the timers at 15 mph in both directions. Going into the portal, you've gotta take A106 ball (the first one is slow, no longer the second one) at 10 mph. Lately A106 ball has been taking names, if you know what I mean.
Jonathan Belcher reports that the MBTA wants to run the type 8s in revenue service on the "B" line after the track work is completed at the end of this month. I really wonder if new track will make a difference, and if so, what will they do...replace all the track like they did in '85? These trains should really be running on the "D", millions of taxpayer dollars have already been spent on raising platforms so the wheelchair ramp that is underneath the low-floor doors can be used. -Nick
That is awful news. From what I understand the Type-8 is a lemon it is built be a company that builds Bad cars (Cleveland San Francisco Los Angeles to name a few). When the stayed on the tracks the MDBF was only 600 miles. The Boeings will still be able to last another few years, and the MBTA should take breda to war on this. They will never be good cars IF THE MBTA is lucky they will be as good as the Boeings.
Breda built good cars for DC!
And they built dogs for San Fran. The Seattle hybrid diesel/ETB's are so bad that the trolleybus dept won't count them as part of the fleet. The company is now mostly owned by the Italian Government because no one in the industry was interested in buying them.
Washington should be tickled that they got one of the few Breda designs that worked! (Soon to be ex-gov.) Cellucci should be going to Italy to get some money back, instead of Canada. Hopefully, the Blue Line bid will allow "a Canadian company" to build the new cars!!
Note BREDA Makes the lrv's for the cleveland rta ANd heavy rail cars for the La metro and the metro in Washington D.C. And i live two towns away from breda in Littelton MA and i've never seen a train come out of that buliding.
Note BREDA Makes the lrv's for the cleveland rta ANd heavy rail cars for the La metro and the metro in Washington D.C. And I live two towns away from breda in Littelton MA and i've never seen a train come out of that buliding.
The Boeings will still be able to last another few years, and the MBTA should take breda to war on this.
They already have; they have stopped payments to Breda twice in the last year; but we are still left with the current situation. In addition to Breda, the MBTA should ask lawmakers to change the law that made them go with the lowest bidder...who happened to be Breda. If they did not have to follow that law, hopefully they would have had the brains to award the contract to Kinki-Sharyo; especially with the type 7s (which are made by Kinki-sharyo) since they are going to be modified to work with the type 8s!!! -Nick
FORGET ABOUT BREDA AND KINKI-SHARYO! How about the MBTA orders siemens low floor cars?
Since payments to Breda have stopped, I suppose they will rigorously test the cars on the B/Boston College before doing any more track work and/or accepting more cars and/or resuming payments. Hey, it's only been three years and three months since the first car arrived on MBTA property!
My understanding is that they're not replacing all of the track; just adding guard rail in some places.
I always wondered why the B runs on Comm. Ave. and the C on Beacon. I know the T labeled the lines A through E (with the A discontinued)but always wondered why they reversed the B and the C. To make it easier to know which line runs on which route, the B should run on Beacon and the C on Comm. Ave.
'Course, changing it after all these years would confuse the heck out of everybody. OTOH, all the GO's in NY confuse the heck out of everybody!
The letters on these two streetcar lines refer to the desintations rather than the streets:
B = Boston College
C = Cleveland Circle
In addition, the routes are lettered sequentially north to south:
A wAtertown (discontinued)
B Boston college
C Cleveland circle
D riversiDe
E hEath street
Ever look at a map? The lines are lettered A-E from north to south like this:
NORTH
A-Watertown
B-Boston College
C-Cleveland Circle
D-Riverside
E-Heath Street/Arborway
SOUTH
Also, B is the first letter in Boston College and C is the first in Cleveland Circle.
Aha. Thanks, fellas.
The new track will be good for all the streetcars that run on the B Branch
I would have posted this in the other thread about this, except it got so O/T I ignored it. Apologies if this has been posted already.
Remember, the Broadway line local stations will still be being rehabbed. They probably will have to do all trains express G.O.s on weekends, no room for N/Q/R/W on the express track.
Also, they may be planning on doing something with Rector, which will be the last Manhattan stop with the 70s tile (I think). That would reqire the N and R to cross the bridge with the Q for a few weekends.
The reason that I could possibly think of is that there might be an occasion where the 63 Street connection from the Broadway line will need to be used for General Orders. Which would require that one of the Express Tracks at 57 Street to remain clear. Access to the 63 Street connection from the Broadway Line can only be optained from the Express Tracks only. You must be on the Express Track to go through this connection. To have only one service would inable them to work around any GO's which would require the use of this connection.
But I think the (W) will be switching to the local track north of 42nd St anyway, stopping at 49th an on until Ditmars Blvd, Queens (not sure if it's making the Astoria express run.)
It's possible, although there are additional switches further north on either side of 57th St. Back in the 70s, N trains continuing on to Queens skipped 49th St. and switched over to the local track just before 57th.
In 1990, the short-lived N express switched to the local track between 34th and 42nd and stopped at 49th.
Not such a surpise, 49th Street is a significant destination, and they have to swutch to local anyway.
Arti
Yes, indeed. The maps had it that way, too.
It wouldn't run to Queens on a weekend, it didn't in the 80s...
I doubt it. The point of closing the Broadway local stations now is to get all of the work along the track (i.e., on the platform edge) done. As long as that's finished now, even if trains have to bypass stations due to construction, they can still run on the local track. (And even if they can't, it's probably possible to squeeze all four trains, at weekend headways, onto the express tracks. If necessary, reducing headways slightly on all four lines, or eliminating service on one only when necessary, is far preferably to never running the W into Manhattan at all.)
Monday, there were 2 LRVs on 2 track at Newark, with a bunch of firefighters doing training on them for evacs and whatnot. For some reason, the car I boarded came in on track 3, so they let us walk across 1 and 2 to get there. They had ticket inspectors for pax boarding and detraining at Newark.
Ask BMTMan about the tix inspectors at Newark, he knows one personal like >G<.
There has been tentative approval for a charter run of IRM's three PCC "L" cars that were used to film scenes in the upcoming "Ali" movie. There is a possibility of two charters on the same day. A $50 price, especially due to insurance expense has been quoted. Right now, Sunday, May 6 has been discussed. The following Sunday is Mother's Day. I would like the 20th as I am displaying at the East Penn meet May 4-5. When the final word comes down, you'll be among the first to know.
David Harrison
I am displaying at the East Penn meet May 4-5.
Yeah? It'll be good to see you; I'll be there, too, videos in hand.
As for the IRM charter, I'll probably have to wait for the video. I may be in Toronto during the 20th .....
--Mark
There'll be a surprise...I'm displaying my Acela Express/Northeast Corridor layout complete with catenary. Plus I'm trying to arrange a showing for Bachmann. The O scale "L"/subway is cooling its heels.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/acelatrains
Look forward to seeing you both there... I'll probably be working the registration desk and the model contest, as usual (no, I don't have any models to enter, I just guard the table and take votes).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If possible, I would prefer the IRM PCC charter *not* be on the weekend of the 20th. There is a Chicago Mayor's Office/IHPA Station Tour Charter (different than the ones I do annually with IHPA) being planned for the weekend of the 20th. I'd hate to see a conflict...
Graham
We all know that back in the day that transit was profitable and then it became and remained forever unprofitable. Here are some quick questions:
#1. In terms of 2000 money and 2000 buying power, how far would the 190# 5 cent fare go.
#2. What % of capacity would the current system have to carry (averaged over the course of the day) for things to be profitable at a $1.50 fare.
For example, if it was rush hour 24/7 would the TA make money? If at the current service levels all trains were packed full at all times would the current system make money. If those two questions were yes what is the optimal level of usage for maximum profit as a % of the absolute maxium capacity averaged over the course of the day? Can you extend this to other transit systems?
#3. In determining fares has anybody ever though about raising or lowering fares to the point where marginal revenue = marginal cost to maximize profit in a monolopy situation ot at least where margical cost = average cost?
#4. How much can secondary income sources improve profitability. These include advertisments, RoW usage (power or telecommunication), food vending, rented retail space and gifts/collectables.
Once we have an answer we can see if we can cause that answer to manifest itself.
#1. In terms of 2000 money and 2000 buying power, how far would the 190# 5 cent fare go.
Consumer Price Index (CPI) data started with the creation of the Department of Labor in 1913. There was no comparable data prior to that date. Rough estimates suggest that the $.05 in 1900 is equivalent to $1.00 in 2000.
#2. What % of capacity would the current system have to carry (averaged over the course of the day) for things to be profitable at a $1.50 fare.
Please, what do you mean by profitable?
3. In determining fares has anybody ever though about raising or lowering fares to the point where marginal revenue = marginal cost to maximize profit in a monolopy situation ot at least where margical cost = average cost?
The operating costs for various rail transit systems is available on the FTA website.
#4. How much can secondary income sources improve profitability. These include advertisments, RoW usage (power or telecommunication), food vending, rented retail space and gifts/collectables.
Some non-operational costs can reduce short term profitablilty. I'd look into the Grand Central rehabilitation before I'd get carried away.
I doubt that the NYC subway, or any transit system for that matter, can be profitable so long as there is heavy rush-hour peaking. Things would be different if somehow ridership could be spread out evenly throughout the day. Needless to say, that's very unlikely to happen.
(I doubt that the NYC subway, or any transit system for that matter, can be profitable so long as there is heavy rush-hour peaking. Things would be different if somehow ridership could be spread out evenly throughout the day. Needless to say, that's very unlikely to happen.)
For the subway, this already IS happening. And, sure enough, if you subtract out the cost of the ROW (tax dollars pay for roads), I believe the subways ARE profitable, or could be with a modest pay rise. If the commuter railroads were not so featherbedded, I'd bet they could break even on an "auto-equivalent basis" as well. They should.
As for the bus system, and bus systems nationwide, they are a social service for those too poor, old, young, or sick to have a car, and are required to provide service to ensure basic mobility on routes and at times that are massively inefficient. Many of these folks pay half fare, or no fare. In NYC, at least, PARTS of the bus system almost certainly break even.
What about debt service on the rolling stock? Does the TA pay the prevailing rate for electricity or do they get a special break from the State Power Authority? Does the TA pay real estate taxes on the buildings and facilities they own that are not along the ROW?
[What about debt service on the rolling stock? Does the TA pay the prevailing rate for electricity or do they get a special break from the State Power Authority? Does the TA pay real estate taxes on the buildings and facilities they own that are not along the ROW?]
Conversely, do car owners pay the cost of renovations to accomodate the handicapped? Does the government pay real estate taxes on the buildings and facilities that they use to maintain highways and roads? This swings both ways -- in fact, I think you can make it come out pretty much any way you want depending on your operating assumptions. But overall, I tend to agree with Larry that the subways could be profitable on an auto-equivalent basis. Most of the TA's budget consists of labor costs, and we know how efficiently the TA uses labor.
>>> We all know that back in the day that transit was profitable and then it became and remained forever unprofitable <<<
I think the only way to find out how the transit systems were profitable at the time when they run by private companies would be to look at the operating reports and see how expenses were distributed.
My guess is that the cost of labor was a smaller per cent of total operating costs then, even though the operation was much more labor intensive. The time of profitability was during the non-union no benefits era. Also, at the time the transit systems were profitable they were new enough that major maintenance such as replacement of El structures was not needed. If reserves were not being put aside for the eventual major maintenance, then part of the "profits" was really distributing the capital itself.
Tom
(Also, at the time the transit systems were profitable they were new enough that major maintenance such as replacement of El structures was not needed. If reserves were not being put aside for the eventual major maintenance, then part of the "profits" was really distributing the capital itself.)
I think you have a good point. First of all, in New York under the "dual contracts" the private companies were guaranteed a profit -- the City ended up paying their bonds. So transit never really was profitable if the cost of the right of way was included. Neither are road-based forms of transit. Later on, the private companies and the City just cash-cowed the asset they had inherited. There never was a three percent "capital reserve," which is what real estate owners typically put aside.
I guess the els and trolleys were profitable -- somehow they got installed cheap, and somehow you can't do that with light rail today. The railroads made a profit before 1915, then again they were built with borrowed money, most went bankrupt, and were bought up cheap. So you might say they weren't profitable, they just had sucker financing rather than public financing. Kind of like all that bandwidth out there today.
[First of all, in New York under the "dual contracts" the private companies were guaranteed a profit -- the City ended up paying their bonds.]
I don't think, though, that that would have been the case if the City had adjusted the 5c fare to match inflation, given the structure of the contract. The City chose to pay for the road rather than having the passengers pay directly.
Coming down to NYC on Monday, going to do the infamous J and L lines. School is out in NYC so anybody interested in tagging along is more than welcome. Anybody up for a night of railfanning?? The L through Brownsville and ENY at night should be exciting.
Marty.
You're gonna railfan on the J and L at night?
Two words of advice:
1) Stick all of your cash down your drawers (no, don't put your change there).
2) Carry on like you're best friends with Larry Hogue, the "Wildman of 96th Street".
OKKKKKKKKKKay, I'm not sure what the hell that means. I know the "J" is a very old line and "L" goes through Brownsville. I did this one last year daytime, did not look that bad. I know Livonia and Sutter looked a little rundown but on the whole, things looked okay. At night; well just have to do it....
later.
I work night lunch on the J and L and it is safe. Just dont flash your cash, no fancy clothes or shoes, no expensive cameras. Dont wear red and black or gold and black.
Act like you belong in the area. There are kooks in all areas of the system.
Watch for bloods and Kings, and dont be too much of a crip.
This Monday?
How's midnight at B'way Junction sound?
BMTman
If you want, gimme the directions. I'd love to ride and see the NYC night via the system. Never done it but will this time.
HAHAH he was kiddin around
You read me like a book....:-)
However, if you want to make this an afternoon or weekend (daytime) trip I have no problems.
BMTman
well first day we plan on exploring rockaway when marty comes down, The industrial park and waste disposal grounds, near Hammels Wye Shop, if anyone interested give me or marty an e-mail, also, we probably will do that J train trip NOT AT NIGHT (marty) again if anyone interested i nattending nd for more information Give me an E-mail
Yes thats right, Marty, Myself, And an observer on this group Handle is NYCTRANSIT, are going to be doing some adventure exploring on Rockaway around Hammels Wye Shop and Rockaway Industrial Park (abandoned) this trip is similar to a trip with Forgotten-NY.com in where we explore Neglected NY, and ofcourse we know great spots for pictures in that area. This will be in the Late Morning, If anyone is interested please give me an e-mail, everyone is welcome on this trip (no matter how much you developed a hatred for me, here is your chance to find out who I really am, haha like anyone would want to. If this does not interest you, We have another railfanning trip the following day, Tuesday April 10th. This will include the A, J, L, and IRT 3 Lines, We will explore Central Brooklyn and its uniquness. If you can make it on the 10th, we'll be more then glad to. Please be forewarned these trips (especially the first one) is not for the weak-hearted. Once again Give me an E-mail and we'll discuss the details.
If the weather forecasts are correct we may be near 70 by Monday. Looks like good beach weather and good railfanning weather.
I may be taking an A to Far Rockaway and then an N33 to Long Beach one of those days.
By "not for the faint hearted" what do you mean? Are we visiting a high crime area or something? I know the Hammels Wye area may be a bit questionable though, so I'll probably opt for the Tuesday trip.
Is it a long walk from the A to the N33 in Far Rockaway? Is it safe?
its safe don't worry I included further details in the email i sent you
Let us know where you will be. I have some friends who would enjoy meeting you. They'll reward you with a gift for metting my friends.
If you are really talented, they might even give you a tour of lower Manhattan.
Be sure to give a description of yourself so we'll know who to look for.
Are you coming, because from the sound of this post it would most enjoyable having YOUR for multiple hours. Who are your interesting friends that would give a tour of lower Manhattan. This sounds so very very exciting. Are we all permitted to come or only a segragated few that might have been chosen ones. OH those lucky few, If I could only make the cut.
You have peaked my curiosity, please acknowledge me by quenching my desire to know what they have to offer.
shit he talking about calling the police and raiding me at the meeting point. This is all ofcourse in sipirt of railfanning.
Are you coming, because from the sound of this post it would most enjoyable having YOUR company for multiple hours. Who are your interesting friends that would give a tour of lower Manhattan. This sounds so very very exciting. Are we all permitted to come or only a segragated few that might have been chosen ones. OH those lucky few, If I could only make the cut.
You have peaked my curiosity, please acknowledge me by quenching my desire to know what they have to offer.
And by Downtown Manhattan He probably Means 1 Police Plaza.
Yo marty we meet Jay St. at 2400, head on over to B'way Junction Take J to Fulton, Take 2/3 to 14th get the L and Ride to Canarsie right marty?? Good Luck, cause im sorry to say ur way too pale for that trip.
Good ol' SeveN.
Have Krylon, Will Travel.
Haha hope you "tag" along, seriously if anyone is willing please let me know by email so we know who to expect.
Way too pale...
I love a discriminating subway system.
i hear that, you know it yourself
Made plans ahead of didnt you Marty "the Party"
ARTICLEin daily news about Bronx woman being dragged by D train.
Peace,
ANDEE
While I won't comment on this specific incident, often the physical evidence does not support the media's account of a particular incident.
How did you get the link onto your post?
She could have been killed if she's been dragged into the tunnel.
Here is another great copy of Hot Times reposted w/ consent of the author.
Today, The consequences of cranial rectal inversion.
We have been given a fair amount of training over the years in the
rail industry. There is always something to learn no matter how long
you have been employed on the railroad. However, all of the
training in the world cannot prevent one symptom that is common
throughout not only this industry, but all others as well. It has
several titles, all of which mean the same thing. My personal
favorite is cranial rectal inversion (CRI), the proper medical name
for head up assitis. I believe the "New England Journal of
Medicine" did a study on CRI some years ago. Cranial Rectal
Inversion is also known in some circles as brain freeze.
CRI is a naturally occuring disease to which there is no known cure. There
are treatments available though. They usually include disciplinary measures
that remove pay from one's check. While CRI can be easily diagnosed, it is
commonly missed by those in conduting interviews and job applicant
screening. It generally does not readily appear with physical symptoms.
Today we are going to look at some of the results of CRI. I will
leave out the names of the employees involved to prevent further
embarrassment to them and of course, to prevent me from getting
sued into the next millennium. However, I will include one that
involved me and mention it as such.
Item number one occurred at the MoPac at teh south end of 26th
Street Yard in South Chicago Heights, IL back in the latter 1970's.
We used to block the Sauk Trail road crossing excessively while
switching at the south end of the yard and of course, upset many a
motorist. On the evening in question, a motorist yelled out to the
Trainman who was standing close to the crossing as to when they
were going to clear up and let the traffic begin to flow. Instead of
being polite, this guy tells the motorist to "Go and have a sexual act
performed on them", only not in such eloquent terms. He was a
little more, how should we say, direct. The now rather irate motorist
gets out of his car, walks up to the guy, takes his lantern out of his
hand and whacks the Trainman over the head with it causing him
to sustain a rather large gash and knocking him goofy. Well, goofier
than he already was.
The lessons learned here? First off, be careful what you say and
who you say it to. Number two, if some irate motorist approaches
you with intent of bodily harm, do not let them grab your lantern
and hit you. Lesson number three, should they attempt to attack
you, strike first. You are on private property and the rule book
states that "you shall protect the property." And being we are
treated more like property than human beings, this rule would
qualify us to protect ourselves. Lesson number four, see lesson
number one.
Item two; Rail burning made easy. There is a photo being passed
around the world wide web right now showing some serious burns
in the rail caused from wheel spin. I worked with a guy on the
Wisconsin Central who did just that at Schiller Park in the early
days of the WC. It wasn't bad enough he burned up the rails, it was
that he was told that he was doing it and continued to do so.
This character was called on the radio by the Trainmaster and told
that he was spinning the wheels. I guess he didn't believe the guy
and kept right on spinning away, When all was said and done, he
had burned clean through the ball of the rail and into the web or
narrow portion, rendering the track impassable. They were not at
all happy.
This guy contended that it was not his fault as he was not getting
any wheel slip indication in the cab. Whenever you develop a
harmonic wheel slip like this, you most often get no indication at all
as they are not slipping anymore, they are freely spinning. Even
though they were freely spinning, he was not moving at all. He
insisted to me that the unit had a bad order wheel slip relay and
that is what caused this event. I asked him if had bothered to pay
attention to the little things while this was occurring such as the
amp gauge and speedometer.
While sitting still with the wheels spinning, the amp gauge will be
indicating very low amperage as opposed to high amperage of
wheels not turning or turning very slowly. When sitting still and the
with the wheels spinning, the speedometer will indicate higher
speeds as the wheels are turning and measurements of rotation
are being made showing a speed as if moving. Also, when wheels
are spinning, they make a very distinctive whine against the rail as
they are starting to grind through the steel of the rail.
Lessons learned? Number one, pay attention to your gauges and
speedometer. Number two, listen to what somebody is telling you
and what sounds around you are saying.
Item three, making flat spots. An Engineer I worked with at the
MoPac got in major trouble for flat spotting wheels on a locomotive.
He had been warned by the Road Foreman of Engines earlier
about the fact that he was sliding the wheels on the engine when
he was stopping the cuts of cars he was switching. Instead of using
the decidedly better (and required) method of reducing the amount
of brake cylinder pressure as he slowed to a stop, he decided to
apply sand to the rails instead.
Sand in this situation is akin to using the coarsest grade of file
against the side of your car when doing body work. The wheels are
still sliding, but now through the assistance of sand as an abrasive,
he was grinding the wheels even faster than just with the sliding
wheels against the rails. He slid six inch flat spots onto the wheels
destroying them and getting some 60 days off without pay for his
efforts.
Lesson learned? When in doubt, read the air brake and train
handling rules carefully. It clearly states that number cause of flat
spots is "high brake cylinder pressure at low speeds on bad rail."
Item four, burning up wheels on a locomotive. Another Engineer on
the MoPac successfully destroyed four sets of wheels and all the
brake rigging on a GP15 locomotive when he failed to perform a
locomotive brake test after adding an engine to his consist. He let
the Brakeman handle all of the connections and away they went.
The brakes never fully released on that unit, something that a
locomotive brake test would have revealed. They went some 140
miles or so like this and it wasn't until they passed Lenox Tower in
Granite City, IL that the Operator there observed glowing orange
wheels that it was finally caught.
The brake shoes had burned completely off and the rigging itself
was now carving into the tread of the wheels. The wheels were
ruined first from the overheating which changed the temper of the
steel, and also from being carved up like a piece of balsa wood
against an X-Acto knife.
Lesson learned? Number one as Engineer, always do your own
connections. It is your job, not the Brakeman or Conductor's.
Number two, do the required locomotive brake test. Number three,
always look back at your train and consist when rounding curves as
required by the rules. Being that this was the fifth unit of the
consist, he should have been able to see something sparking or
glowing in the dark, or in daylight, observed smoke coming from
around the wheels.
Item five; protecting the shove. We have a couple of guys here at
the CNIC who failed to do so and paid the price as things went
horribly wrong. In case number one, the Conductor erroneously
assumed that he could get the entire cut of cars he was shoving
into the intermediate siding at Rantoul, IL. He even rode the shove
most of the way in to protect a private road crossing located there.
He dropped off at the crossing and told the Engineer to shove them
in the clear, which the Engineer did. When he stopped the cut in
the clear at the north end of the track, they had already run out of
the south end of the track, through the switch and onto the main
line. Fortunately, the train that had been on the main track had
departed several minutes earlier or it would have been really ugly.
The other case had a guy riding a cut of cars out of the yard at
Homewood and across the control point there. Being that the lead
car of the cut was not conducive to a good ride, the Conductor
opted ride the second car. A serious error in judgment. He now had
an obstructed view of the move. As they shoved, he was also
unaware of a set of hand operated crossover switches before the
control point lined to crossover from the track they were using to
the track next to them. They crossed over to the other track without
his knowledge and were now using that next track over. He is
looking at the signal on the track they are supposed to be using
and tells the Engineer they have the signal and to keep shoving.
They did have the signal all right, just not on the track they were
now using. The Engineer some considerable distance away was
unaware of what was now transpiring. The Conductor proceeded to
shove the Engineer past a stop signal instead. He was completely
unaware of what he had done until the Dispatcher came on the
radio and made a fuss about somebody going past a stop signal.
Busted!
Lessons learned? Always protect the shove. If it means riding the
move all the way to the end of the track, so be it. Also, when in
doubt, the safest course of action must be taken. Period! If it
means you have to walk ahead of the move, then so be it.
Item six; failure to properly inspect a car targeted by an equipment
defect detector. A train is stopped for hot wheels by the Manteno
detector. The Conductor inspects the car and determines it has
sticking brakes. He cuts the car out, bleeds off the air and
proclaims it safe to move to the Engineer. The Engineer involved,
probably one of the very best on this entire railroad, asks the
Conductor if the wheels on the car are okay. The Conductor tells
him they are and walks back up to the engine. They take off and
after not going very far at all, the train goes into emergency. This is
not good.
Another inspection reveals the very car the Conductor just dealt
with has derailed on the frog of the switch at South Peotone.
Apparently, he missed observing the brake shoe build up on the
wheels of this car. Brake shoe build up is the material from the
brake shoes that has overheated, melted off the shoe and adhered
to the wheels of the car. This now has the car riding on the build up
instead of the wheel tread and it significantly changes the dynamics
of the contact to the rail. The flanges of the wheels are now
elevated and not tracking properly to hold the wheels on the rails.
When the wheels hit the frog at the switch, instead of the flanges
guiding the wheels through safely, the wheels climbed over the frog
and came off the tracks and the car of course, derailed.
Lessons learned? Always thoroughly inspect the car on which the
defect is found. One defect may easily cause many other problems.
And finally, item number seven; Running over derails. This is also a
two-parter. The first involves a Conductor here at CNIC. He was
setting out at Kankakee Yard. There are derails at the south end of
the yard as it rolls downhill to the south. The Conductor tells the
Engineer that he is all lined up and the derail is off. The Engineer
starts to shove back. When it is too late, the Conductor realizes
that the derail is off all right, but on the wrong track. The cut rolls
over the derail by two car lengths, but didn't derail. These are one
way derails in service here meaning they only derail in one
direction. In this case, that would be in the southward direction to
protect from cars rolling out of the yard. There is no need to protect
cars from rolling into the yard as it is highly unlikely this could ever
happen.
But wait, it gets more interesting. Seeing that he has made this
mistake, the Conductor decides to correct the situation. Instead of
reaching under the car, unlocking and removing the derail, he tells
the Engineer to take them ahead instead. Bad move, very bad
move. Both cars wind up derailing as a result.
The other part of this item involves yours truly. t was 1979 and I
was hostling at the time at the MoPac. I was about to bring an
engine onto the east fuel track at the roundhouse for servicing. I
pull up to the derail and blue flag and stop. The unit I was operating
was a GP15 and was long hood forward as I was backing up to the
track. My helper gets off, turns off the blue light and disappears
from view as he takes down the blue flag and removes the derail.
As this is taking place, I observe the General Diesel Foreman
standing in the doorway at the north end of the roundhouse
watching this ritual take place. I should mention that this particular
Foreman was well despised by all. He suffered from a severe case
of "better railroading through harassment and intimidation"
syndrome.
My helper comes back into view and gives me a back up sign. I
begin to move towards the fueling station when all of a sudden, the
engine jerks and leans way over and then drops back down. I
immediately dump the air and stop. When I get off to see what
happened, I noticed the derail still in the derailing position and
sitting directly under the fuel tank of the locomotive.
The General Foreman then comes running over and tells me that
he is going to pull me out of service for running over a derail and
proceeds to read me the riot act about being unsafe. I quickly make
mention to him the fact that he was standing there observing all of
this and took no measures or steps to prevent this from happening.
I also told him that as an officer of the carrier, one of his
responsibilities is to prevent violations from occurring and unsafe
moves from happening. I said that I would freely mention in the
investigation that as a witness to this entire event, he took no steps
to prevent it from happening. I also mentioned that from my
vantage point in the cab running long hood forward, I could not see
for a fact that the derail was still in place and was relying solely on
the instructions of my helper. Needless to say, I was not removed
from service and there was no investigation. We merely grabbed a
spike maul and shoved the derail off the rail and concluded the
move. The guy had unlocked the derail, he just didn't pull it off the
rail for some unknown reason. CRI striking again I guess.
Lessons learned? Always double check your line up and derails for
proper alignment. Norfolk Southern has taken this a step further by
requiring the "double check." That is, the Engineer asking the
Conductor on the radio if he has double checked the route to
positively ascertain that all switches are properly lined and all
derails removed.
My own personal lesson learned was to now always stop far
enough back so that I could see the switch and/or derail involved
from my vantage point to positively ascertain that the person
operating them had indeed, done so properly. Something I still do
to this very day.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Is it my imagination, or do the Redbirds have more usable interior room than the R-62s? I've often felt that the Redbirds are roomier, even during rush hours.
Does anyone know the interior dimensions of the 2 cars?
Thanks.
The interior dimensions, including cabs is: 51'4" x 8'9 1/2" for all Division A cars currently in use.
Source is the Table 9D-12 NYCT Rolling Stock in the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS on the MTA website.
BUT, if you have fullwith cabs in four of ten cars your interior usable space has been deminished!. If the unused cabs were removed, making "trailers" then we'd have some thing.
The R/44 and R/46s were the BEST examples of both worlds. Full with cabs for the Conductor and engineer and more seating for the travelers.
avid
Do the R44 and R46 really have more seating? It feels like less to me. Even if they do, it kind of sucks. No matter where I sit on my (F) train, it's cramped as hell. Give me the straight sideways seating of the R62, R142, and everything before the R44 anyday. (Preferably the bench.)
:-) Andrew
The R-27 was the first train on the IND/BMT with the horrible all sideways seating. The R-44 was actually a reactionary design, except for the buckets.
Well, how about that! It might just be my long legs, but I hate that "longitundal" seating on the R44,R46, and R68. I actually think the R142 is the most comfortable car currently in service.
:-) Andrew
The R-142 seats have horribly uncomfortable curves. Redbird seats are better.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Pork on one aspect of the R142 vs. Redbird debate.
Because it's the only one argument I make in which I consider the Redbirds to be BETTER?
Oh, I don't consider the Redbirds to be better in all ways.
Let's see...hmmm...well...um...well, I guess those rust holes are starting to become a bit unsightly.
Yes, you could say I'm not the greatest fan of the R142 (except for the novelty factor, which I suppose is worth something), while there is much in the Redbird that I like. Sorry.
Go figure. I'm proably alone in this, but I like the curvature of the R142 seats. It feels good on my back.
:-) Andrew
Next you'll tell us you like the R40 seats!
The Redbird/R32/R38/R42 seats are extremely comfortable. (Aside: Are they all the same? I may be imagining it but I seem to find R32 seats just a hair more comfortable than Redbird seats. Anyone else?) The R40 seats are terrible, with the R142 seats only a bit better. The bucket seats aren't great but they're not awful either, except when filled by people who don't fit in the buckets.
The most comfortable cars currently in service are the redbirds and the R-32/38s.
The 142s are okay except that the bench was designed for people with supremely small butts. The bolster that is supposed to provide lower back support is somewhere around the top of my pelvis--two inches too low to do anything but keep me from sitting all the way back. What dimwit designed these things? Do they not fit anyone else? It's so frustrating that such a well designed piece of equipment could have such a glaringly uncomfortable and incorrectible (until the first GOH which will be either in six weeks or thirty years, depending on which SubTalker you ask) error.
ARGH!
Dan
"What dimwit designed these things? Do they not fit anyone else?"
Before I post the following let me remind you that I am not trying to stereotype or offend any of the subtalkers here; but simply want to post some factual information that may have something to do with this question.
Remember that the R142As were designed by the Japanese. In Japan (and other asian countries) the population is a lot higher than the United States, so everything is more cramped. In addition, I believe Asians are known statistically for being shorter than Americans (why I don't know). This is why Japanese cars (i.e. the Honda) are small. In other words, I think Kawasaki probably used an average body of one of their own instead of an American. As for the R142s, I believe Bombardier followed Kawasaki's design; even though they didn't build as nice of a car in my opinion. -Nick
Amercians also being the heavest people on earth statistically, should also explain why fitting in the smaller seat is so differcult.
I know many other countries where people have smaller butts, this works out just fine.
BTW: When you say American, do you mean white black, latino?
"BTW: When you say American, do you mean white black, latino?"
I am referring to all that live in the United States :-) -Nick
BTW: When you say American, do you mean white black, latino?
When I refer to an American, I refer to someone born or naturalized in the United States of America. When I say white, I mean the color of a garbage truck. When I say black I mean the color of coal. And when I say Latin I'm talking about the language spoken by Romans.
Race is a myth concocted by losers seeking to oppress, and maintained by losers seeking special treatment at the cost of others.
When I say white, I mean the color of a garbage truck.
I call that gray.
Hear Hear! We're all mongrels on this bus.
That is total crap. For one thing, how do you explain the seats manuactured by Bombardier, a Quebecois company?
The seats were ordered by the TA, and they would have been the same had they been built in Japan, America, India or by penguins in Antarctica.
And it also doesn't explain small cars coming from Japan. Japanese companies manufacture plenty of cars, from sedans to pickups to SUVs to roadsters. And what? Was Geo a Japanese car?
The only reason people think that cars in Japan are smaller is because while American companies built these giant, lumbering gas-guzzlers, Japan came out with small and efficient vehicles, and the American companies had to catch up.
And do you think that Honda is one car? Honda makes a variety of vehicles of various sizes. They also make Acura. My family owns a rather large Acura sedan that's bigger and roomier than a lot of old American shitwagons.
Hell, my 1987 Maxima probably has more legroom than the crappy and larger 1983 Oldsmobile it replaced.
And what? Was Geo a Japanese car?
Chevettes and Plymouth Horizons too...
Remember those?
Chevettes and Plymouth Horizons too...
Remember those?
No.
I'm younger than some of those cars.
"R-142A's were designed by the Japanese" thats wrong. MTA designed it and gave the blue Prints to Kawasaki and Bombardier. it is like that world wide. The original design of the trains was made by the TTC of toronto which NYC liked and bought.
If you think that Kawasakis are small and cramped, then I suggest that you come to Philly and take a ride on The B-IVs (IMO, they are not cramped at all), then ride on the M-4's (they are very cramped). BTW, guess which fleet was built by Kawasaki?
>>> Remember that the R142As were designed by the Japanese. In Japan (and other asian countries) the population is a lot higher than the United States, so everything is more cramped <<<
I doubt that this is the reason for the problem. It was true when the Japanese first stated importing automobiles in the early 60s. The cars were designed for the two lane highways and relatively short distances to be traveled in Japan, and the passenger compartment had too little headroom and leg room. They were very aware of the shortcomings quickly, and within two years were designing the cars for the American market.
I am sure Kawasaki is not so provincial that their engineers were not aware of the average size of Americans. It is possible that they scrimped on the size of seats because the specs called for a given number of seats, and when they had to be made narrower to fit that number in the given space, the other dimensions such as the height of the bolsters were adjusted proportionally thanks to computer aided design.
Tom
the seats were solely designed for posture reasons by a seperate u.s. company.
Probably because the seats are installed in the final assembly plant in Yonkers.
The available seating on the R-142 gives each person more room than any previous car.
The bench is shorter because the doors are wider so that the bench is designed for seven seats, not eight. But it's not one eighth smaller, so each person gets more space. There's a bar in the middle which divides the benches into 3 on one side and four on the other.
The transverse seats like on the R-44/46 may provide more total seating, but the way it is broken up into 2-seat units makes much of it "psychologically unusable" most of the time. People are reluctant to sit down next to strangers, except when the train is really crowded. In rush hours the seats may all be filled, but at other times at least half stay empty, even as people stand, because of this psychological barrier. Longitudinal bench seats, like on the Redbirds, the R-32/38, and the R-142 do not have this problem. The individual but longitudinal seats on the R-62 have it to a lesser degree.
I don't mind if people have psychological problems. This just means that there are more seats available for me when I board at a later stop, because I take any seat into which I'd fit.
Your right Dan, we all hve our "bubble of space" that we try to maintain. It shrinks or expands with our environment. We wounldn't fill the cars seats from one end to the other. We naturally spread out, taking the best seats first, window or door seats. Vacant seats are left inbetween until the capacity is such that fat ladies wiggle in. Myself , I get on early enough to get a choice seat, if its not occupied by the homeless.
avid
The most democratic cars are the R/32s and R/38s and R/42s . The door seats go first. People will slide a little to make room. Some will try to spread out in a greedy manner or put packages on seats as well. The last seats to go are the two-fers at the ends of the cars. They are the least comfortible, or most intimate depending on your point of view.
avid
Why?
If I enter an empty car in which nobody is sitting, I go for the twofer (under the expectation that nearly all the seats would eventually be filled).
They have the most seats of any NYCT car ever (old BMT stuff excepted). 76 seats on cars with no transverse cab. I posted about this before, or do you not read responses to your own posts?
If you don't like the seats, stand. That's what you'd be doing anyway if the car were bench. If the car were arranged with bench seating, there would be around 10 seats less. Sure, more standees could fit, but that's only additional space in the area furthest from the doors. You know, that seemingly ficticious place called 'all the way in' conductors keep talking about but nobody goes to? By putting seats there you get people to take up that space.
I agree somewhat though, the conversational seating does sometimes feel cramped. But wouldn't you rather a cramped seat than stand? Or, be able to sit facing forward? Or having more places to sit per car with only one 'neighbor'? How 'bout an arm rest? On the R-142, the entire train, there are exactly four seats where you can sit facing forward (and four for backward) comfortably.
I posted about this before, or do you not read responses to your own posts?
Nothing personal, my man. I remember it. But I tend to take everything I read by anybody on here with just enough salt to hear the other side. Again nothing personal. After all, look at all the contradictory information about the R68's.
:-) Andrew
I thought the topic was interior room, not posterior room!
The R/44 "B" cars, the ones without cabs utilize the interior space to the maximum. The R/46 "B" cars are next! They have four fewer seats then the R/44s.
As for comfort or the lack there of , the R/40s bring back uncomfortable memories. I wish the GOH had addressed that problem with a new mold that resembled the human form. The truly worst were the R/10 retro fits going from sprung rattan to lumbago assaulting fiberglass. The R/9s were no better.
For bench only seating the buckets should be eliminated. A full house just doesn't fit!
The seating in the laterial types should have a softer or less pronounced bucket, too many of us, myself included have a "hangover"
of sorts.
The current crop of redbirds are okay. I would advocate they be saved, fitted with bunk-bed-bench-seating as a flypaper type rolling stock for the evening indigenous nesters. Maybe change the lighbulbs to warm while instead of cool white, And some just not working.
This would make the other interiors that much more usable.
avid
The R/44 and R/46s were the BEST examples of both worlds. Full with cabs for the Conductor and engineer and more seating for the
travelers.
From The New York Subway: Its Construction And Equipment
A novel feature in the construction of these cars is the motorman's compartment and vestibule, which differs essentially from that used heretofore, and the patents are owned by the Interborough Company. The cab is located on the platform, so that no space within the car is required; at the same time the entire platform space is available for ingress and egress except that on the front platform of the first car, on which the passengers would not be allowed in any case. The side of the cab is formed by a door which can be placed in three positions. When in its mid-position it encloses a part of the platform, so as to furnish a cab for the motorman, but when swung parallel to the end sills it encloses the end of the platform, and this would be its position on the rear platform of the rear car. The third position is when it is swung around to an arc of 180 degrees, when it can be locked in position against the corner vestibule post enclosing the master controller. This would be its position on all platforms except on the front of the front car or the rear of the rear car of the train.
One of the reasons that R62/R62As don't have as much interior room as the redbirds is that the R62s were built with acoustical and thermal insulation betweeen the car skin and the interior walls in order to comply with transit noise and energy conservation requirements. Also, the R62s have door operators in the swing panels whereas the Redbirds do not. I hope that answers your question from a technical point of view.
An "Critic's Notebook" article in the New York Times today in the Metro Section speaks to the upcoming demolition and replacement of parts of the TWA terminal at Kennedy Airport. Part of the structure has been designated a city landmark, but a smaller part of that is slated for demolition in a compromise with the Landmarks Preservation Commission.
Architecture Hands Off the Baton to Preservation
This piece argues that architects, rather than preservationists, should be more interested, involved, and vocal about how to improve the terminal. For example:
"Nothing short of a private Gulfstream can bring back the days when jet travel was an invitation to romantic fantasy. But the alterations now being contemplated for the T.W.A. terminal do not even try. Once again, an opportunity is being lost to create culture from crisis. Architecture is being left out of the loop."
Or:
"The scandal of the present threat to the integrity of Saarinen's landmark building is that it has been left to preservationists to intervene in what ought to be an issue of the highest priority for contemporary architects."
The related news story can be found here: Airport Growth Squeezes the Landmark T.W.A. Terminal or on the front page of the Metro Section of the paper version of The Times.
If I may add my own editorial comment, look at the disfunctional peice of crap for a transit structure that resulted when preservationists were ignored during the destruction (okay, "reconfiguration," if you want) of Pennsylvania Station. Perhaps if architects and preservationists, who likely both have an appreciation for the aesthetic and the functional, were to join together to oppose the supposed dunderheads in the Port Authority, a truly great monument to modern transportation could result.
If I never have to use JFK again in my life it'll be too soon...
-Dave
If I never have to use JFK again in my life it'll be too soon...
Ah, but there are two words that describe JFK's big advantage over Newark or LaGuardia: Jet Blue.
I always found JFK easy to arrive at, but easy to leave from.
Arriving at the Delta terminal, for example, is a piece of cake- on my way out of the airport with my luggage in 15 minutes. But catching a flight there meant running the maze and a poorly placed security checkpoint to find baggage check-in, then finding gates not logically arranged.
There are things to like about the airport. Like knowing that your plane does not have to land right at the start of the runway and then brake like crazy to avoid an unscheduled swimming lesson in Flushing Bay for passengers...
What's bad about JFK? I've never used it, but I want to use it the next time I go to NYC, just for a change of scenery from LGA. I like taking the earliest flight to NYC from ATL, and that goes to LGA, so that's why I haven't used JFK.
Well, from a single trip's observation, not counting things like the fact that its totally under construction (so is EWR, so is SFO, YYZ, etc): The many-small-terminal arrangement is terrible. If you have to transfer terminals, allow a couple of hours just for that. (Airtrain won't really solve this since each terminal is not getting its own station like the Newark Monorail.) The small terminals require duplication of services (check in, baggage claim, immigration, customs, food service, etc) so that none of these services were completely adequate. For instance the British Airways departure lounge is only really busy from around 4pm to 10pm. The rest of the day there's not going to be many people around. There's less incentive for the private companies to offer decent food service or other retail operation for only six busy hours. In a larger terminal airport, for instance EWR, the scale of the terminal requires and encourages more passenger services (particularly this was noticable at immigration and customs at Terminal 7 @ JFK. Long lines when flights arrived since the immigration & customs areas are very small).
Other than that, it's not particularly easy to get to; it's further away from midtown than EWR, the money I saved on a cheaper JFK flight I spent on a car service on the way home (and please, even knowing I'm a transit buff don't tell me I could have taken the "A" train, then the PATH, after an 8 hour flight, back to Jersey City during evening rush hour with two suitcases and 3 litres of scotch :-) The last time I tried to juggle that much stuff on a train while travelling I got pickpocketed because I couldn't pay attention to everything.)
I'll take Newark any day especially on returning home. Big immigration & customs hall, less waiting, easier to get to/from even if your destination is Manhattan.
On the other hand if your destination is exotic you're more likely to find a direct flight at JFK.
Your points about JFK and the small terminal syndrome are well-taken. I have found the JFK terminals easy to arrive at by plane then leave to go home, but confusing to drive to then take a plane.
Not to nitpick, but you may be wrong about AirTrain. To begin with, each terminal will have its own station - though you'll need to use an enclosed walkway/moving sidewalk to reach AirTrain. Then another moving sidewalk when you get off the train (unless you're in Terminal 4, where AirTrain will be inside the building.
We'll see how it works out. Travelers are adaptable, and AirTrain offers them something they never had before. We need to try to be open-minded (sometimes this is difficult for Subtalkers...)
We'll see how it works out. Travelers are adaptable, and AirTrain offers them something they never had before. We need to try to be open-minded (sometimes this is difficult for Subtalkers...)
One thing that might help Air Train gain acceptance is the fact that many of the people using Kennedy airport are foreigners, therefore more likely to be accustomed to using mass transit than Americans.
Yes, good point.
Airtrain has got to be better than the present arrangement. Because of this it will be a winner.
Simon
Swindon UK
I'll have to disagree with you on that one, Dave... I usually travel to the west coast from JFK even though I have to pass Newark to get there. NJCL to NYP, A train to Howard Beach, bus to JFK, takes a little over three hours off-peak, and there's no delay in the terminal - you have a bit of a walk, perhaps, but everything is moving. NJCL to NWP, bus to EWR, takes about two hours, but then it's an interminable wait for everything once you're in the terminal and the gate you are initially assigned is almost never the gate you actually leave from. And it's far more crowded - like the Lex Express at rush hour.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, that's fine with me, you keep going to JFK and staying out of my way at Newark. :-)
By the way that gate reassignment problem seems to be only a Continental problem. I've never had that happen to me at terminals "A" or "B".
-Dave
Despite living closest to Newark, I don’t hold out any great hopes for its future:
1) Newark & LaGuardia both suffer from the fact that there is no space to build any more runways. With two parallel runways, Newark is exposed more to weather delays if wind prevents using them both.
2) Access to Newark has been horrible over the past few months due (IMHO) to very bad planning by the PA. I understand that they need to repair the monorail as it was dropping to bits due to poor design/construction, but did we need to suffer through: Parking Lot E closed to build the deck, no monorail, multiple roadworks, Terminal C being rebuilt and extended all simultaneously? If the roadworks had waited until the monorail was running and the new train connection was working, then the agonies of getting there would be a lot less.
On the other hand, JFK has plenty of space. I am hoping that the Air Train will be extended back to Penn Station, then getting there will be a breeze!
>>dunderheads in the Port Authority
Same people that built the new Tower 2 times larger then needed. They built the new tower first becasuse FAA regs says the tower has to be 1.5 times taller than the tallest structure on the airport.
Then they went and cancelled the new LARGE international arrival buildings (Terminal 1) and redesigned it much smaller and shorter. Now you have this huge skinny tower sticking up out of no where and could be seen for miles. Poor planning.
What you write is total bull. A tall structure is a great structure and the control tower looks great from a distance, and it isn't bad that the controllers can see farther. I say they could have built it even taller.
And why do you think it's poor planning? It's an airport, not the Port Jeff mall. Besides it's a handsome tower. And Terminal 4 (thenew IAB, effectively) is starting to look pretty good.
Better than the FAA's engineering job at some airport down south where the colloms in the control tower needed to support the radar above are so large the controllers can't see parts of the runway.
Whoops.
Needless to say, it's being rebuilt.
Well, at Newark they're building the new tower out by the Hotel in the parking lots. So if they ever want to expand a terminal upwards, they can't....
-Dave
Muschamp's article is a very thoughtful piece, although I don't agree with him 100%. Here's the key paragraph, in my opinion:
The scandal of the present threat to the integrity of Saarinen's landmark building is that it has been left to preservationists to intervene in what ought to be an issue of the highest priority for contemporary architects. I say this not to discount the value of preservation, but to point up the failure of architects to respond with sufficient urgency to a crisis that preservation alone cannot resolve. Preservation is great, but where's the creative intelligence going to come from? The architectural community should respond more aggressively when alterations in design and function are contemplated for a building of this caliber.
As he points out, what is most needed here is involvement not only by people who are simply interested in saving the old but involvement by visionaries who are skilled at preserving the old and adapting it to the present. Adaptive reuse isn't enough, although it's better than nothing (Richmond's Union Station, now a science museum, comes to mind); neither is evolutionary development (Washington's Union Station has lost much of its charm and grandeur because the cavernous interior has been so subdivided as to lose all sense of proportion - although it's better than not being there at all). The key words are creative intelligence, and there are people within the preservation movement that have it. Hopefully they are or will become involved with the proposals for Saarinen's terminal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IEEE
THE INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS, INC.
NY Section
Rail Rapid Transit Vehicle Innovations Forum
April 24, 2001, 6:00 to 8:00 PM
HOST: Nortel Networks
320 Park Avenue, ( 50th ST) New York City
The IEEE NYC Section Vehicular Technology Society Chapter will sponsor a technology-sharing forum on the New York City Transit R-143 Rail Car propulsion, control, and signage systems. The lead panelist, Mr. Erwin Schaeffer, New York City Transit's Project Manager for the R-143 contract, will explain and answer questions on this fleet of new technology, Rapid Transit vehicles.
Systems engineers, suppliers, installers, and operators are invited to share insights. Future IEEE NY Section, VTS Technology Sharing forums are being planned for:
Fiber Optic Communication networks for Rail Vehicle control, Automatic Bus Location and Control Systems, and
Wayside and Railcar PA and Customer Information Systems
There is a $35.00 charge for the forum and refreshments commencing 5:30 PM.
Advance registration is required for admission. IEEE Members and nonmembers may register for the April 24, 2001 forum by sending $35.00 checks payable to IEEE NY Section to Brad Craig, Louis T. Klauder and Associates, 317 Madison Avenue, Suite 1621, New York, New York 10017. If you are an IEEE member, please provide your membership number and indicate if your interest in participating In one or more of the planned forums.
Additional information regarding program specifics can be obtained by contacting Mr. David Horn of Fluor Daniel Infrastructure, at (212) 947-7110, or by e-mail at david.horn@fluor.com.
How technical are those sessions?
Arti
As a former IEEE member (back when we actually built things here) they are designed for pocket-protector electrical engineering types, go into the formulaic aspects of the designs, practicum and so forth. The expectation in IEEE meetings is that folks come with a technical knowledge so there's a lot of nomenclature tossed about that is expected to be known by those attending ... sorta like programmers getting together and talking about stacks and exception handling and things like that.
Might be quite dry ... but if you're willing to sit through it, there's usually handouts that you can take home and decode at a later time. You'll definitely be hearing specifics of problems encountered and what's to be done abou them even if your ears are ringing for days afterward. I'd go myself if it weren't so far away from where I am.
Thanks! I wonder why don't they have discounts for IEEE members (being one?)
Arti
Good question ... they usually DO have a slightly higher price for non-members - I was a member of the Schenectady (GE) section and there was never "pay one price" ... :)
Used to be the member of broadcast, and computer, but the times have changed and I've lost the interest in video :-) although, I remember dicounts in that section.
Arti
Heh. I was Assistant Chief and then Chief at WFTI-TV54 (also anchored the news) before they became a "PrayTV station," built NY-SCAN for NYS, and spent many years in radio in NYC in the 60's and 70's and was involved in designing the predecessor to WTZA62 (now WRNN). Got into the computer side automating master control and edit suites. You can make more money selling paint these days. :)
IEEE, SBE, AFTRA, IATSE ... now I battle Microsoft for a living and play with trains. Heh.
Where's Stephen Bauman? Steve, would you like to go and summarize what you heard there on Subtalk?
sorta like programmers getting
together and talking about stacks and exception handling and things like that.
I don't know if you saw what I wrote about the R-142A's computer system, but it would have caused a stack overflow eventually...
Anyways, don't programmers have more interesting things to talk about than stacks (I did, however, have a few four letter words to say to a group member working on a project with me a few years ago who forgot to set the size of the stack on our demonstrating machine before a class presentation so our software crashed it three quarters of the way through our presentation to the class)? Exception handling is more interesting, and from what I've gathered here is also something that needs to be worked on a bit in the software used on the R142/142As.
-Robert King
Heh. Most of the programmers I know only want to talk about what Captain Kirk would have done and find trains boring because you can't steer them into a wall. And don't feel bad about improperly set stacks and buffers - after all, every time Bill Gates does a demo, he manages to steer the train right into the bridge abutment much to the amusement of the trade magazine columnists. :)
And I can just TELL the hand of the mighty Gates is behind the 142's ... probably Windows CE (or WinCE for short) ... 'nuff said.
At least it's fun to get something working in BG domain. At least doable within means :-)
Arti
Does keep me busy, better than 90% of the code I write is what we refer to as "Sister Cleo code" (clairvoyance, or the ability to anticipate Billyware screwups and dance under, around and beside Microsoft's bugs so they don't splash on OUR shoes) ... but yeah, every time Billy screws up, my cash register rings ...
That's why I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised if the 142's are running NT ... and why my favorite language is STILL PL/1 ...
I remember PL/1. Cool language - of course I programmed PL/1 on an IBM 029 Card Punch...
That was pretty much the only way ... paper tape broke. :)
I remember it too... I worked for IBM once upon a time, mostly in the cash register business, but near the start of my time there I was on the PL/1 compiler change team (fixing compiler bugs).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I always thought that PL/I was a ploy by IBM to waste computer time and enrich their pockets.
I was busy writing missile simulations at the time I used it. The PL/I compiler had the annoying habit of "fixing" syntax errors and running the code without telling you. Of course, the fix was invariably wrong and 3-4 hours of a simulation were worthless. I think that computer time was billed at around $1,000/hour back then. This was back in the batch days and one was lucky to get 2 or 3 runs completed per day.
The thing that saved the project was using a CDC6600. This was a very fast machine, compared to the IBM 360 fare. It had an archaic OS and a FORTRAN IV compiler. However the machine ate up code and spit out results so quickly that results came back an order of magnitude sooner.
I guess I don't feel too bad about not checking to make sure the stack was set properly because, embarrasing as the crash was during the demonstration, my group still got the highest mark in the class for that project (the only project in the history of computer sciences at that school to ever have gotten 100%).
The T1 subway cars which are roughly the equivlent of the R142s except they have had very few problems, so few I could count them on one hand, and all but one were minor have a computer system similar to the one found on the R142. The problem we had with the T1s was that a bug in the computer program would cause the train doors to open at infrequent random times. The bug appeared so infrequently that it was only discovered three and a half years after the T1s debuted in service. They were all pulled out of service over a weekend (fortunately that's when the bug was discovered) and had a software patch from Bombardier installed. Since then, those subway cars have been running problem free, computers and all.
-Robert King
Must be Linux then. Nah, I'm sure they're really some Motorola-based CPU running 68k assembler code - the only entity dumb enough to run NT is our own Navy ... even the MTA wouldn't be THAT dumb. :)
The MTA certainly wouldn't now that they have the Metrocard machines with NT (No Technology?) that seem to, at least by accounts I've read here, be somewhat crashprone.
I'd almost be willing to bet money that the little computers in the subway trains are designed around the 68030. The Triple Zero would be a little slow, and probably long out of production and the same with 68020. Hewlett Packard, at least until recently and I don't know if this has changed or not, has used the 68030 as the main processor in their laser printers which suggests that the 68030 is still made. The 68040 and 68060 didn't seem to take off as much as the 68000 and 68030 did in terms of computers and I don't know of any other devices that use them like the HP printers that have 68030s, so I suspect that the 040 and 060 are no longer made too.
You probably know just as well as I do how confusing Intel 80x86 assembler is compared to the Motorla 68000 family's, and for a subway car's computer system, which 80x86 would you choose? One also has to bear in mind that none of the old ones are in production anymore (as far as I know) so a 386 (my first choice for an Intel on a subway car as it's powerful enough yet inexpensive enough) wouldn't be available as are all the other older ones, and one certainly doesn't need a Celeron or a PIII for subway car terminals. It's not like they need the accelerated graphics capabilities of MMX on a PIII at 800mHz to render a 3D diagram of the train on the terminal's screen in real time to show the progress of each door as it closes...
-Robert King
True all around ... but then again, they're still using the Rockwell 6502 for the shuttle ... but I wouldn't pick *any* Intel for a mission critical thing ... they run too hot. I'd go with a 68030 though I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see some custom microcontroller. From what I've seen of the status screens in pictures of them here, my guess is that we have something VERY custom and not all that sophisticated from a standpoint of what's needed on the display. That was one of the reasons why if I had the time and I was in NYC anyway, I'd definitely show up for the IEEE thing just to find out.
I hope somebody goes, and tells the rest of us about it.
I like the 68030. A good processor...
To anyone who does go ... find out what CPU the 142's are using and score big bonus points here on Subtalk ... gane dinero ...
If I absolutely had to pick an Intel for that sort of thing, it would be the 8086. Honestly, it's my favourite of the 80x86 line because it doesn't have the silly 16/8 bit internal/external archetecture or any of thoes annoying modes like protected mode etc. that the later ones have. But then again, I'd prefer to stick with a Triple Zero or an 030 from the outset.
I thought Motorola was behind the 6502. Isn't that the processor that was used in the Commodore 64? The 6502 is a decent little processor, but it's little.
-Robert King
[I thought Motorola was behind the 6502]
Now that you point it out, I think so too, could be of course some cross licencing.
Arti
As far as I know the 6502 was ALWAYS a Rockwell original. They do hold the patent for that design ... the 6502 was an original "MIL-STD" design and when superceded, was released for civilian/aero use ...
If I recall correctly, Atari was the first (cerca 1979) to pair the 6502 with an Antic chip dedicated to graphics processing. This set it head and shoulders above the Apple II (but Apple had better marketing and management...)
Of course, previous to that there was a computer called the Intertec Superbrain which used two Zilog Z-80's - one for the CPU, one for the screen. They ran a word processor called Wordstar like no other machine could.
The Z80 has also done years past its original life in microcontroller duty and several offshoots of the Z80 continued on for years after Zilog ditched it. "Computers" don't normally need all that much power in industrial control situations, they just need speed and real time interrupts. The 6502 was the first one that enabled short palette color, certainly good enough to give you a blue background with red status areas in text - also was the first CPU to use a 3.58 clock which made it REAL easy to use an ordinary NTSC type TV set for display.
My old K car (Plymouth Reliant) had a 6800 chip (not 68k) and managed to do OK with something that old in it. Given the federal requirements for railroad use, you can rest assured that whatever's in the 142's isn't an "off the shelf" chip, but will definitely not be one of the newer versions simply because for railroad use, they want YEARS of reliable track record behind ANYTHING put into trains ... I remember what an uphill fight it was many years ago to get LED's "proven" for service when BART was being built. The original equipment went with bulbs because LED's hadn't made the cut yet.
The 6502 was "rad-hardened" for one and for most "intelligent controller" operations, it was all you really needed. And it could do color video too. But in its time, it was more than adequate.
[The 68040 and 68060 didn't seem to take off as much as the 68000 and 68030 did in terms of computers and I don't know of any other devices that use them ]
040 got it's day in mainstream as the last non-RISC proc powering the Apple Macintosh computers. You can still buy upgrade cards using 040ies :-)
Also long after that Chyron was using 040 and 060 for their video character generators.
Now we have Palm Pilots using a derivative of the architecture.
Arti
I'm also aware of numerous upgrade cards for the Amiga computers that carry an 040 or an 060 alone, or more recently with a PowerPC processor to run programs written for Amigas but require a PowerPC. Those are mainly advanced 3D graphics/animation programs.
Didn't the multimedia Macintosh (a pre PowerPC machine) have a 68060?
-Robert King
You mean Amiga is still viable? Wow!
I owned a 1040ST. Great computer (my Dave Grusin jazz CD features a piece with a 1040ST synthesizer. Designer Shiraz Shivji came up with a machine that was described as "mil-spec" in its quality, was a dream to program and was just better than anything else in its day. The "TT" was supposed to receive the 68030 but Atari Markeying was so incompetent they screwed every chance Atari had to make it in the computer market.
I owned the 800, the 800XL, the 1040ST - all great machines. I used Visicalc to help Home Savings run financial studies for customers, flew the first flight simulators on them, did medical school homework on them...
[Didn't the multimedia Macintosh (a pre PowerPC machine) have a 68060? ]
Nope, but it had a built in DSP, I think a TI one.
Arti
Ah yes, the venerable Chyron CP-1 and VP-2 with their "intermittent boards" ... would it genlock or wouldn't it? Only the take bar knew for sure. :)
I just checked Chyron's web site, Infinit family is still around (Max, Maxine,) so 68k is still in use!
Arti
Yipe! :)
I don't get it. Why if Toronto's T1s are so similar to our R142s, why are the T1s running with almost no problems and the R142s are plagued with technical problems. The cars came from the same company and have such similar technology. What's going on here? Someone at the MTA and/or Bombardier needs to be held responsible!
My guess is MTA has different requirements than Toronto (e.g. Bombardier couldn't just take a bunch of T-1's and repaint them in MTA livery). Beyond that I can only speculate.
That's exactly it. The requirements between the MTA/IRT division and the TTC are quite different.
Kawaski isn't doing much better with the R142As, so I wonder if it has more to do with the car design or the MTA's requirements than the builders.
-Robert King
MTA has long been known for exacting requirements - look at the history of bus purchases. Vendors have a hard time here (of course, having the A frames on the Flexible buses collapse and spill engines to the street was nothing to laugh at...)
Morrison-Knudsen did a nice job rebuilding the Budd Brightliners but ended up losing money on the deal.
When the TA has had unhappy times with rolling stock, it's always been their own fault. The TA has always done detailed specifications of precisely what they want in their R contracts, along with drawings and then put them out to a limited number of car builders willing to bid. Rockwell was never a car builder and yet they seemed to be the only ones who wanted to bid on those "cracked trucks" ... sometimes the engineers draw up a lemon, most of the time they don't, but the bidders have to bid on and build whatever's in the specifications.
Prior to the drawings and the bidding process, TA engineers will go out into the field and see what's out there so as to not design something that would have no responding bidders at all. But at the same time, they know what they want and to get the plum, you have to build it as drawn or you don't get the contract. And sometimes a vendor has to go where no vendor has gone before since it's a pretty big piece of chump change for their bottom line since if the TA wants something, they've seen it out there, know it can be done and expect YOU to adapt it to what you build. Some car companies responded to this by yanking the cord and jumping on the tracks and seeking the nearest staircase out of the business. :)
Bear in mind that the Kawaski 142s are being just as troublesome as the Bombardier 142s as well, and the problems with the Kawaski's can't be explained by Bombardier, so shouldn't something be done about Kawaski too?
The T1s are similar and as you mentioned do come from the same company and have very similar technology but there are several critical differences:
1) The T1 is a more conventional design. They are two car married pair units, and each car is 75 feet long as per the TTC specifications. From what I understand, the R142 is about 50 feet long, and a full R142 unit comprises of five cars rather than two so the equipment is probably divided up differently between the cars and certainly between more than one or two of the five cars.
2) The T1s are being built in Thunder Bay, inestead of somewhere in New York. The Thunder Bay plant have had experience building five different classes of 75 foot subway cars for the TTC over the period of time stretching from the mid 1960s til present. This long experience with the standard TTC car concept does strongly count in their favour in terms of producing a reliable product.
I sould mention that the Thunder Bay plant's record isn't spotless: the H5s had a long technology teething problem time because they were the first cars that had thyristor control and air conditioning but they are now very reliable cars, and that the H6s that were made there in the mid 1980s are still basketcases (H5s were built when it was owned by Hawker Siddeley, H6s built when it was owned by UTDC).
3) The T1s don't have extra features like automatic station announcements or strip maps or electronic destination signs or things of that nature which the R142s do which, when all is said and done, the added equipment can become a maintainance and reliability concern that would not exist if it was left out. The T1s in this respect are also more conventional than the R142s. Most of those systems probably aren't made by Bombardier, but by another supplier.
-Robert King
Your points are well-taken. The R-142 is actually 51' and change in length.
As to component suppliers, Luminator (a co based in Texas) made the electronic window signs for the refurbished R-46's; perhaps they are also the R-142 subcontractor. I think they also make bus signs.
Thank you for your courtesy in posting that. It should be interesting.
Nose to nose faceoff! First photo!
Heh. Where's the gasoline truck?
LOL..THANKS PAUL!
Peace,
ANDEE
Good one, Paul! The Battle of the BMTs! (Or more appropriately, 'Battle of the BRTs')
No field shunting on those babies!
:-)
BMTman
Hold on, we are not that old, which one is Fred and which one is Me?
B.F.& C.I. RY. Co. = Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island Railway = Brighton Line. The other says "Sea Beach" on the cab, but it's kinda hard to read.
which is which?
The 4-4-0 on the left is a Brighton locomotive. The 2-4-0 on the right is a Sea Beach locomotive.
Great I have more power then that Arcadia Republican
I hope you're reading this Paul. There goes Brighton Beach Bob again bringing politics into our website. Do you get it now? My friend Bob is the political agitator of the two. I only respond in reaction to his liberal tirades.
Mommy! Mommy! Fred said the "L" word again! And there's no trains running on THAT "L" ... bustini! bustini! :)
I didn't know what I was starting. Next we'll be comparing the size of the tenders and cowcatchers.... (sigh)
I think we've got a qualifier for the motorman's eyeball test in that photo ...
How come nobody asked about our food fight 3 weeks ago in LA? I ate more
He did eat a little more than I did but I insisted on paying since he was my guest. But don't get the impression that I ate like a bird either. I had a second helping of fettucine as I recall, so it can be safely said that we both had a pleasant repast. Of course, when I visit #1 Brighton Express Bob, he will treat me and I will still having that second helping of fettucine.
Wait a minute. I brought it up. Something about John Belushi poking his nose throught the door and yelling, "FOOD FI-III-IGHT!!!"
My thoughts exactly buddy. Who the hell to those guys think we are anyway? Neanderthals? Good God, those are ancient trains. Are they trying to tell us something? Well I guess there is some consolation that our friendly barbs have ingnited a cottage industry of immmitators. Immitated but never duplicated, right Bob? Anyway, let them enjoy a laugh on us. We're all supposed to be in the same boat anyway. Enjoy yourself guys.
Bust 'em if ya got 'em, soldier ... :)
Ummm...
Those are gen-YOU-wine Brighton and Sea Beach locos. Don't you want to stand by your namesakes? ;-)
Gentlemen, fire up your boilers...
They should stage a Triplex-pulling contest.:-)
As my 20 month old God Son in Hawaii says when he plays with the toy train I gave him. Choo Choo
Hopefully, my 2 1/2-year old godson will be into trains as well. Those Brio wooden trains at toy stores grab his attention.
Question: Does the SEPTA R1 Airport Line have cab signals and what is the max. speed the trains reach?
If nobody knows, the next time one of you are riding it could you observe the engineer through the Railfan Portal.
The line is equipped to operate with cab signals but does have wayside indications also. I think the cab signals are needed due to the strange wrong-rail operation utilized (which may end due to the new side platforms at the Airport terminal stations).
I have been told that the speed limit is 79 mph along the straightaway from 60th St Junction to 90th St Junction. This is possible since there are no grade crossings in this stretch, although patrons using Eastwick Station may have to cross the tracks at grade depending on which track is being used by which train. Keep in mind that this stretch is also used by freight trains.
Came across an ad to reserve the above item. Its two cars (Mets/Yankiees) on a track mounted on a wooden base with pictures of the stadiums and the logos in the background.
The number 7 car is totally wrong. # is 2302 not 9307+++++. Also they have mainline doors, not R33/36 WF doors. The number plate behind the cab is beneath the MTA logo, next to the door not mounted up high behind the cab. The rear one is, so you have one high, one low.
The Yankee car is 2300 with a red stripe underneath. The font doesn't appear correct.
They don't say what scale the item is--only that its an artist's rendering. They would like your reservation so that they can charge you $108 (in 3 payments) when the item finally comes out in July.
While I'm partially to buses, as an old Sunnyside boy I would've considered buying this if it was a little more accurate and lower priced.
Has anyone else seen this ad ?? It might show up in the Color section of your Sunday paper shortly.
Until my next visit on Sub-Talk
Hart Bus
PS--I am not a dealer, manufacturer or in any way connected with the Danbury Mint or any competitor.
I have an ad for that figure from 10/26/00. The "artist's rendition" is probably closer to the final product in the new one; the October version is more of a crude sketch. It shows an R-62/62A for the Yankees and an R-33/36WF for the Mets; both cars are #2000. The sketches look good down to the circuit breakers, with the main exception being the rollsigns. The R-62's is a single line in the "opening" part of the window only, while the R-33/36 only has the route portion, with windows where the terminals should be. The price is the same.
If the Danbury Mint's automotive models are any indication, I'd say this will be a nice piece, and the artist needs some work on his conceptions. Still a little too pricey for me, though :).
I order the Danbury Mint-Subway Series Cars last Oct, 2000 & i should get it by end of this month. It cost only $99 plus $9 shipping handling totol $108 together & i already put down $36 advance depoit. Any way im looking forward to receive my Mint Subway Series Cars & put it on my display in the living room.
Peace
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
Dave, I don't dispute what you posted. I hope it comes out looking good. Please put up a post when you receive the piece. Maybe more of us will then order it.
I also hope that if they are billing it now it is almost ready for shipping. The postcard size ad that I'm looking at says under the reservation information in bold print " Available in July ". Perhaps this is a solicitation for a second casting.
My sister ordered it for me in December; I got a postcard in February to expect it in May.
-Hank
Saw these 2 Redbirds on #7 today. STILL have the logos for the subway World seres back a few mouths ago. I was thinking that MTA was going to remove it.BUT it did not get remove yet. I guess MTA did not remove those Logos on those 2 Cars yet because MTA was thinking that there is going to be anouther Subway seres. Well I hope not.
#7 R-36 #9400
All 10 Subway Series R-36WFs and one R-33WF are still out there; they've been split up since the summer, though. I've seen all 11 in a single trip from Grand Central to Main St!
Correction there are 11 WS cars 9356 9357 9360 9361 9394 9395 9412 9413 9327 9712 9713 and 9314 was supposed to get the stickers it never turned out. only 2 cars out of the 11 have the "blue ends" 9394 and 9713.
The original order had 9394 at the Flushing end, followed by 9395, and 9327. 9713 was at the Manhattan end, followed by 9712.
The order was as follows:
Manhattan-9713 9712 9361 9360 9413 9412 9356 9357 9327 9395 9394-Flushing.
It's been a while since thos cars were on the same train. I took a picture once where there were six of them in a row.
I don't have a car number yet but I'm told that one redbird will be donated to the Smithsonian..................
Where would they keep it ? I can't imagine them evicting the SR Steamer. I believe the B&O museum is Baltimore is cooperative with the Smithsonian on such matters.
Hopefully it will be the one with the most body-rot so that generations of Americans can see what 'moved the millions' from the 1950s to the 90's as it looked when it was finally retired from service.
BMTman
It would be awe-inspiring to many who never saw how rotted out some of those cabs got ... back in the SEVENTIES, I rode some of the cabs with buddies of mine in the rustbirds and the water would just cascade down the front wall where the windows had been eaten away. Thirty years later, I'm amazed any of them still survive. Some were being yanked from service way back when for serious rot where the only thing keeping the body on the chassis was all those layers of paint. :)
Kev, I think I'll suggest to the Smithsonian Institute that your posting be turned into a bronze plaque that will adorn the body of the 'rustbird' to be displayed in our nation's capitol.
BMTman
Nowadays, it seems the only thing holding some of those Redbirds together is Bondo.:-) Or duct tape.
In all sincerity, given how water intrusion was severe 30 years ago, I sit in amazement that they're still running and still attached to their trucks ... I'm sure Train Dude can fill us in, but I'd be willing to bet that those cars have seen a SHEETLOAD of spot welding just to keep them on the road ...
Whoops ... happy fingers. Posted before I was finished ... as to what sits in museums, well ... have a look at what Branford did in trying to restore the cars they have to as close as factory new as is possible. I would expect the Smithsonian to make them look like they were still sitting on the rack at the ACF plant. As though they had never carried a passenger at all.
Perhaps we could get some funds together and make a "TA horror theme park" where we could place R9's on end as a sorta "trainhenge", a redbird horror show ride where cars are sent down a Cyclone-like track and the trucks and frame stay on the track while the strapped in passengers are sent down a water chute ride ...
But as to the museum, I'm sure they'd put them back to that original funky khaki-like color they were delivered in originally with several truckloads of BONDO under it. By the time they're done, no magnet would stick to it anywhere. :)
LOL!
And I suppose the Redbird will reside in the Transportation Building at the Smithsonian so it'll share the same building that holds an exhibit for the Concorde and the Apollo LEM. Neat!
BMTman
By chance, would the Smithsonian have a PCC in that building as well? If they don't, they should...
-Robert King
Why? Are you trying to unload one? Heh.
My uncle, may he rest in peace, was on the LEM design team (life support systems). He worked at the Grumman plant on LI in 1968-69.
... and one last bit ... that those things are still plying the rails at all is testimony to amazing body maintenance ... what I first noticed back in the 70's as the bodies started peeling on those cars was that they seemed to be some kind of wierd LAMINATE of metal - looked like 6 to 9 sheets of thinner metal all schmushed together. You could really see it in the cabs and in the door panels (the part that was opened to get at the mechanisms) as they rotted. And some of the cabes I saw were just amazing. Daylight by your toes, sharp edges by the windshield gaskets and horribly stained paint where the water was streaming down in the rain. I'm surprised the ta didn't provide buckets for the motormen for rainy days. Just amazing.
[I'm surprised the ta didn't provide buckets for the motormen for rainy days. Just amazing.]
That's why there was no need to mop of the floors of the cars in those days....;-)
Actually, that business about the layers of steel might have infact been a way to reinforce the overall body strength.
BMTman
Heh. Always got a kick out of the congoleum 12x12 tiles on the floor. Reminded me of many a cheesy apartment kitchen. But yeah, I can see where it would be useful for some degree of structural integrity when they were new. I forget the exact name of the construction, it was something new that they did for those and didn't repeat elsewhere. I think it was called "LAHT" or something like that. But man, once the water got "in between the sheets" it got gnarly fast.
And I have this sinking feeling that the Smithsonian would have to dangle it from the ceiling ... though shooting a few into space wouldn't be such a bad idea if they can't sleep with the fishes ... a whole lot scarier than MIR. :)
Did the R27/R-30 series of cars share this water infiltration problem?
--Mark
I would imagine any of the LAHT cars did ... some of them had it to a mighty impressive level too. I remember an incident back in 1971 where a motorman on (I think) the #4 line had his windshield come in and cut him as the mount for the window let go from rot out ... and as I've said before, you could see the rust stains in a lot of cabs ...
All they would need to top it off is a tape loop playing "Rusty the Redbird".:-)
The Redbirds, in my opinion, have performed yeoman service for the TA. Aside from the R1-9s, the cars of my childhood, they are my favorite class of cars. How many other motor vehicles from the Eisenhower era are still on the road, day in and day out, winter and summer? They were simple cars, but solid and reliable as an anvil. I go out of my way to ride the 'Birds whenever I can, even passing up R62's. The beauty is in the simplicity.
Credit, of course, goes to the hardworking employees of NYCT, who have done a great job keeping the 'Birds going. Like the R1-9's, I'll be sorry to see them go.
Where it stands a good chance of being sent to the Smithsonian's "attic", where the public never gets to see it. The trailer to the Gay Nineties train, 1512 went there. The motor got restored and keeps the beautiful Southern Pacific company. Of course, it says nothing of what a streetcar is, just like the locomotive says nothing of what a steam locomotive really is.
I may be in Valley Forge later this month, is there a SEPTA BUS/Train from Valley Forge to Downtown Philly. Please let me know and the line number Thank you
I don't think so but there might be a regional rail stop
There is the 125, that goes straight to Philly via King of Prussia and the Schulykill Expressway.
Bus, train or what?
It is a bus
There is the 125 bus, that goes straight to Philly via King of Prussia and the Schulykill Expressway.
thank you,
The Routes 125 runs from Valley Forge right to SEPTA HQ at 13th and Market in the heart of Center City. It takes the Schuylkill Expwy and is usually pretty crowded. There are no convenient rail connections into Center City.
Of course, it depends where in Valley Forge you will be. The 'town' of Valley Forge is really a part of a larger township. The Valley Forge Conference Center is actually on the east edge of the 'town', not far from Valley Forge Park. The Sheraton at the Conference Center is a stop on 125 which, as mentioned, is a straight shot into Center City. The 99 bus which passes there occasionally also crosses the Norristown High Speed Line (100) at King Manor Station, and this line is a very interesting rail line which goes to 69th St, where connections can be made to the Market St El to Center City. The 99 can also be taken to Norristown Transit Center where either 100 or regional rail R6 can be picked up (R6 goes directly to Center City). You could make an interesting trip of different routes in different directions if you wanted a quick sampler of rail transit in Phila, or you could take your chances on 125 (which can and often does get stuck in Schuylkill Expy traffic).
I will be at the RADDISON HOTEL. I will have a car. I would like to take rail even if it is only to 69th where I can change to the Market St Line. What do you suggest to where I can drive and park the car. It will be on the weekend. Bob
I forgot to mention that you could also take 125 to Gulph Mills and transfer to 100 there to go to 69th St. Another option!
The 5 is currently the fastest subway line in the A Divsion. However, they call it the Train from hell. I do not understand this, because it is the only train I can think of that is express in 3 boroughs! The M is the cleanest. I figure the M is the cleanest, because the news people said so. But you know why the M is the cleanest? NO ONE RIDES THE DAMN TRAIN! The Q is the fastest B Divsion line! Best Shuttle is Franklin for the B Division and 42nd for the A division!
Layta
E to JAMAICA CENTER
R32 3885
Yeah, if the (M) is the cleanest, it's mainly because it's not infested with passengers! I like it though. :-)
My own favorite is the good old Queensboro IRT, the highly distinctive (7) line. I love the views of Shea Stadium, the Worlds fairgrounds, the very generous closeup of Midtown Manhattan, including the highly underrated Queensboro Bridge, Forrest Hills in the distance. And the neighborhoods it goes through are each so distinctive, both in the buildings and the people. it's like a tour of the New York City behind the glitz of Manhattan. it has a unique elevated section along Queens Blvd, with uniquely decorated elevated stations. And even the underground stations (apart from Grand Central Airplane Hangar) are nice, especially the beautifully restored Main St. The redbirds are distictive and good-looking, though too obviously at the end of their useful lives. I'm also looking forward to seeing some R62As. :-)
My least favorite? I'm sick of the (F), but after all it is my daily grind. There's not much to distinguish the Queens or Manhattan section of it, but I do like the 63rd St stations it will soon traverse. I guess the (C) is probably the worst thing overall.
Of course, these are purely subjective observations.
:-) Andrew
Defining good and bad lines can be hard. Reliability wise, I'd rate all 4 Eastern Division lines over anything else, and I'd rate the Broadway N/R at the bottom in this category.
Where is your data on the 5 and Q being the fastest. How are you measuring it? Distance traveled and time? Speed on a portion of track? Your slobering face plastered on the rail-fan window??
For the A Division, the worst lines are the 2 and the 5, hands down. They have the rustiest and crappiest of the Redbirds. They both have too many stops in the Bronx and the 2 is slow as hell. There always seems to be some kind of G.O. Every time I ride the 2 or the 5, the trains always seem to run slowly on the express tracks. Many times, I've seen a 1 or 6 local train passing my express train. You think that wouldn't happen, but it can and it does. And of course, the Bombardier R142s are taking forever to go into service (WHY?). And trains on both lines are jammed even during weekends. Riding either line is not a nice experience.
The 2/5 in the Bronx is pretty slow but not the Manhattan parts.
My least favorite line is the F. After all, how slow can it go?
How come the TA can afford clerks at the seldom-used Bowery station on weekends, but not on the other down Nassau Street ? Seems to me, they could make a trade-off.
Well the clerks should stay at Bowery, it should get much busier as of July 1st.
I don't think any Grand/Chrystie Street refugees are going to go down to that cesspool.
Do you seriously think that commuters would stay away from a convenient station because they don't like it?
These stations are not closed on weekends merely to save money on token booths. They are closed so the Broad St. tower can be closed, which is impossible if the J were to operate here. I believe the Chambers St. interlocking, which the J uses to turn around on weekends, is controlled from Essex St, a tower which has to be manned 24/7 anyway. However, I'm not 100% sure.
Couldn't the J be extended to Fulton (or even Broad), wrong-railing in one direction, without opening another tower? (I'd prefer the southbound track be used since it has an easier transfer to the 2/3. 4/5 riders can transfer at Chambers.)
Can the triplet set run without the middle car ? If so, maybe the 2 servicable sets should be assigned to the Franklin Shuttle, and allow 4 R68's to return to the mainline pool.
That would make them just like the R-11, which because of their braking problems were assigned to the shuttle and nowhere else on the B division. R-11, R-110. How about that!
The story I heard about the R-11s is that they weren't run in solid trains because of their braking problems. Based on the photos of them that I've seen (3-car solid consist on the Franklin Ave. shuttle and who-knows-how-many cars on that B (3) train in October of 1968), that theory doesn't seem to be true.
From what I heard from others at the time they were running on the shuttle, they were OK on level ground. You just didn't want to do the bridge with them.
Sounds like this might be a good idea....especially with all the changes happening this summer with the V & W being added due to the 63rd street connector. In addition, if this does happen, I would give G riders the first priority to the cars...a 4-car train in rush hour just doesn't do it. -Nick
That would probably be a good idea for them.
Wayne
Big deal, 4 R68's. FOUR!!!! They are in married pairs as well. Just keep running the R-110's as a MAINLINE unit, it's much more worthwhile.
Four R-68s is one whole G train!
They would have to replace the roll sign units on the current shuttle cars. They were taken out, with sign boards put in their place. From the outside you can hardly tell.
>>Four R-68s is one whole G train!<<
9 R-110's is one A train!
6 R-110's is one C train!
The point is why throw away those middle cars just to put 4 R-68's back in the pool? Seems silly.
Use them on the JAAAAAAAAYMACIA "J" train. They are as big as the standards that once plied that route. Schedule it for prime time rush service.
avid
Maybe, but they might still have clearance problems due to their truck placement. The trucks on the BMT standards were set back from the car ends quite a bit, more so than on subsequent R units.
I saw car number 5302 (formerly 5612), one of the first Comet IIs to be sent for a major GOH back in April '99, parked outside the MMC and coupled to a Comet IV cab. The car looks identical on the outside to a Comet IV, complete with digital signs and the Comet IV paint scheme. The only way I could possibly tell them apart is the lack of center doors and the positioning of the car number. I'm now wondering where the other 8 cars sent to AAI are (perhaps in service)? One can see it by riding a train between Hoboken and Newark Penn ($1 one way, 1.50 RTX) or Newark Broad St (1.95 OW, $3 RTX). Look out the left (heading west) or right (heading east) window around the maintenance shops and you will see it. Take the 4:28 PM from Newark to Hoboken and it will go slow in that area, since it makes several stops in the vicinity for employees.
It will be interesting how and where they place them into service. GOH Comet-2's will have disk brakes and therefore will not run in consists with other Comet-2's nor Comet-1's.' Also, the cab cars will be stripped to trailers. Therefore, the only thing else they can run with are Comet-3,4,5, the latter doesn't exist yet, and the former 2 don't run on the RVL.
The comet I cars will be retired after all the Comet II cars are returned from GOH. AT this time NJT is mixing Comet III and COmet IV cars in the same train.
I've noticed also that their getting a bit sloppy in car assigning. There are Comet II cabs with comet I low door trailers (somewhat rare), and my favorite was a Shoreliner (5174 - Harriman) with two Comet I high-door cars running on the Montclair Branch! They generally try to confine the MNRR stuff to the Main and Bergen lines, sometimes the Pascack.
The Comet IV and III mixing gets annoying at times. A Comet IV train will often have a III cab, so no automated announcements or interior digital signs. Or, there'll be a Comet III train with a Comet IV trailer or a mixture, leaving some cars with the announcements and others silent. If the conductors stay in one of the Comet IV cars they will sometimes forget to make announcements and the Comet III cars are in silence.
Today the train was arranged like this:
Comet IV Cab - II GOH - III - GP-40. Digital signs on the Comet IV and II GOH flashed "Philadelphia | Local."
Perhaps compatibility testing?
New York Times
April 4, 2001
Commercial Real Estate: Work to Start Soon on Mall at Atlantic Terminal
By SANA SIWOLOP
When the overhaul of Brooklyn's long-dreary Atlantic Terminal is completed in 2004, the crowded transportation hub is to have a spiffy look, with wider passageways, new stairs, eight elevators and a canopied entrance to shelter arriving and departing travelers.
Above the refurbished station area, the terminal will also have something completely new: a large shopping center housing about 30 retailers and restaurants.
The developer, Bruce Ratner, who heads the Forest City Ratner Companies of Brooklyn, said his company expected to break ground for the 372,000-square-foot center by June 1, with the goal of opening it in summer 2003.
Mr. Ratner said the center would have three full floors, and a partial fourth floor. Shoppers will be able to enter the mall through three ground- level entrances: one at Flatbush Avenue; one at the entrance area for the terminal's Long Island Rail Road station; and one off a 23,000-square- foot plaza that will be built between the new mall and Atlantic Center, the 393,000-square-foot retail complex at Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues that Mr. Ratner's company finished in 1996.
Compared with the Atlantic Center, the Atlantic Terminal layout will have a mall-like feeling, with more open space and generally smaller retailers, Mr. Ratner said. "Atlantic Center has more big-box tenants stacked on top of each other, as well as more destination shopping," he said, adding that he expects the two properties to complement each other.
More than 80 percent of the space at Atlantic Terminal has been leased, Mr. Ratner said. The 15 retailers that will have stores in Atlantic Terminal include Gap, Target, Victoria's Secret and the Children's Place. Target alone, Mr. Ratner said, has leased 192,000 square feet of the space on the building's second, third and fourth floors; the retailer's main entrance will be on the second floor.
Richard Pesin, the director of retail development at Forest City Ratner, said the basement at Atlantic Terminal — the same level as the subway platforms — still has 45,000 square feet available, with space ranging from 1,200 to 8,500 square feet. He added that while rents for larger spaces vary considerably, rents for smaller spaces, generally between 1,000 and 3,000 square feet, run about $80 a square foot a year in the terminal.
David Rosenberg, a managing director at Robert K. Futterman & Associates, a real estate service company that specializes in retail spaces, said Forest City Ratner had already created a strong tenant lineup at Atlantic Terminal. He expects the Target store especially to be a magnet for other businesses and shoppers.
"I like the fact that Target won't have their own external entrance at this center," he said. "Target will pull commuters up from the station. It's a natural traffic flow."
Built in 1908, the terminal now serves roughly 50,000 passengers a day and encompasses the Atlantic Avenue and Pacific Street subway stops, as well as an L.I.R.R. terminus. The terminal serves 10 subway lines, and is the second-busiest station for the railroad in New York City after Pennsylvania Station, said Brian Dolan, an L.I.R.R. spokesman.
Time has not been kind to Atlantic Terminal, once known as Times Plaza because of its proximity to The Brooklyn Daily Times, which was published nearby.
Until about 15 years ago, the land above the terminal was home to meatpacking warehouses, as well as a small station building. Those buildings were demolished in the mid- and late 1980's to make way for retail development, although the plans were canceled during the recession of the early 1990's. Today, the lot above the station is vacant except for an old control house that served as a subway entrance more than 30 years ago. Renovation of the station itself started last spring.
For years, commuters have complained about the lack of amenities at the terminal, as well as confusing, dark and crowded conditions. Transit officials say that when the rebuilding of the terminal is completed, at a cost of about $106 million, many of those problems will be rectified, through measures like rebuilding the old control house to serve as a giant skylight for the station below.
Transit authorities also have high hopes for the new retail center. "It's our concern," said Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, "that this be a major transportation hub, and that both the retail center and the hub be symbiotic."
As the expression goes, I'll believe it when I see it.
About a year ago, someone connected with the Flatbush terminal redevelopment asked me for a picture of the old station. He said they were hoping to build the new structure to look similar to the old one. I hope that is still in their plans.
Too bad the city fathers didn't let Peter O'Malley build his new Ebbets Field there. Would have been an ideal locale transportation wise like MSG
Too bad the city fathers didn't let Peter O'Malley build his new Ebbets Field there. Would have been an ideal locale transportation wise like MSG
I recall reading that the city did offer the site to O'Malley, but he decided that Los Angeles was a better place for the team and declined the offer.
You're right, though, the site is excellent in terms of transit access.
What I read (Howard Cosell's autobiography) was that Walter O'Malley did want the stadium there. At the time, the LIRR was privately owned and who had a big chunk of stock?......Walter O'Malley. The city offered to build him what is in effect today Shea Stadium. He turned them down.
It should also be mentioned that he had already bought (at the time) relatively inexpensive land in the LA area called Chavez Ravine. Once LA consented to build Dodger Stadium on that land, the deal was done.
In retrospect, despite the conflict of interest, the city should have acceded to O'Malley's request. It probably would have saved Downtown Brooklyn through the 60's and 70's, not to mention the source of pride to Brooklynites in having a major sport franchise with the Brooklyn name. (I haven't lived in NY since 1972, so I don't know what's Downtown now. My grandmother went through it after the 1977 blackout and said it looked like it had been hit with a pogrom!!!)
IIRC Robert Moses had a lot to do with the new Dodger ballpark not being built at Atlantic and Flatbush.
I can't say for sure, but he probably had a lot to do with the Shea offering. I believe it was on public land at the World's Fair site (1939 and 1964) near a confluence of planned or existing highways. That seems to fit the Moses style.
According to Moses's book PUBLIC WORKS, in June 1953 O'Malley wanted to shoehorn a plan for a new stadium into the Title I rebuilding of Fort Greene but that Moses rejected it because adding such a building would have contravened federal Title I guidelines and jeopardized the entire plan.
Like much in PUBLIC WORKS, this does not have the conspicuous ring of truth. Moses himself admits that the project was analogous to the Coliseum, being built with Title I funds at Columbus Circle.
According to THE POWER BROKER, Moses also blocked something called the City Sports Authority, which would have been charged with keeping both the Dodgers and the Giants in town.
I was in the middle of looking through the Archives when all of a sudden they seemed to stop working. Is it just me or is someone else having the same problems?
Dave said something about the Archives being oos due to another Northpoint DSL going-bye-bye.
Yup. The line went down today around 12. When everything gets straigtened out they'll be back.
A student groupe is showing The Warriors this Friday and I heard there are some goode subway sceens in it. Do you guys recomend that I see it?
God damn my MAN!
This is one of the worst cult classic films ever made. That's what makes it so cool to watch. The vintage subway sceens from 1979 is memorable. If you want a NYC documentary on how far the Big Apple has come, check this movie out especially at the end when they come back to Coney, you see blight of the urban landscape, how dirty it was and realise just how well the city is doing today.
Yes you should see it! let me know if you liked it...
Marty
*clink click clink* Waaaarrrrriiiioooorrrssssss Come out and PllaaaaaaAAAAAaayyyy :)
That's a great movie. It practically lives in the subway for half the movie.
It may be a lousey film, but it's a great one anyway.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Good one, You're right I forgot about WWWWarrrriors coooooome out and pllllllllaaaaaaaaayy. God that was bad!!
I mostly love this movie for the urban sights, sounds, subway, and the graff all over the system. Man this city has come a loooooooooong way.
yesssssir Mayor, u da man!
i thought you disliked guliani marty?, This movie is like Wild Style, Wild Style is the greatest movie ever made, but there is hardly a plot, its just a bunch of shit that happened one day in the South Bronx tied to graffiti artists, and Rappers but still, greates movie ever made, Great Pieces By Caine 1, Dondi(RIP), Tracy168, "Lee"Quinones (stars in movie), great real rap by Fantastic Freaks, Cold Crush Bros,Busy Bee, Double Trouble, Grandmaster Flash, not to mention south bronx in the early 80s, the way its meant to be
Phil, why don't you come down and watch it with me? It starts at 7PM Friday in Shanklin 107. The cost is $2. Send me an e-mail and I'll either call or reply w/ directions. I'd love to meat you and argue in person. I could show you all the cool SPS stuff.
I would but:
a) My bike is still in NY - it's comming up this weekend.
b) I have my heat transfer lab durring then. And the professor is, well, very educational ;) Not to mention i missed last week due to my body deciding that my mouth was a bidirectional port for food.
Anyway, thursday night 8 - midnight or so, I'm floating around campus, then midnight to 2:30, I'm at my friend's place, then 3 - 6, I'm on WWUH (93.1 FM) with my friend (his show). I usually get the 6:33am Friday morning slAmtrak home to NY.
And when my bike's with me, who knows WHERE I'll be >:)
They god some good subway footage, I like the part when they hide against the columns of the elevated.
Yeah thats right with those skin heads on the bus. It wasn't only the system that was hit with graffiti in those days, that bus they were riding was tagged all over.
Yea writing on busses was cool too, and sanitation trucks, some real good shit came out on sanitation trucks, and assorted delivery vans, delivery wans still get heavily hit today.
IIRC, when The Warriors came out its posters were banned from the subway (note: this was very pre-Giuliani). The posters (and the movie, according to some) were considered too much a play on the culture of violence that was very much a part of the city then.
Likewise, West Side Story (which follows the story line of Romeo and Juliet very closely) was considered by some to be a soft treatment of gang violence. These may also seem very quaint or foolish now but, especially in the case of Warriors, you need to put your mind back to New York in 1979 (if you were around then) and it doesn't seem quite as silly.
Warriors was also alleged to have encouraged in attitude in some of its audiences which led to small scale violent incidents.
On a different level, also like West Side Story, I have heard that Warriors is directly based on old literature, in this case an ancient Greek play or legend in which one warring faction has to be cross the territor of another hostile faction to reach home, with the sea (the Atlantic Ocean at Coney Island here) being a mystical binding influence.
With all that good stuff in mind, I'd really like to hear your take on the movie.
The warriors is loosely based on Xenophon's "Anabasis."
Not a biggie like the Odyssey by Homer but, hey, what do you want for two bucks.
You know, Homer: Bart and Lisa's dad.
Was the Warriorsthe first movie that Mercedes Ruehl (the undercover cop on the park bench) ever appeared in?
She also had a part in the movie Subway Stories!
Yes.
On a different level, also like West Side Story, I have heard that Warriors is directly based on old literature, in this case an
ancient Greek play or legend in which one warring faction has to be cross the territor of another hostile faction to reach home, with the sea (the Atlantic Ocean at Coney Island here) being a mystical binding influence.
Specifically, according to the IMDB, on Xenophon's "Anabasis." I assume Xenophon was the source of the word "xenophobic."
It's been many years since I saw the Warriors, but I do remember many scenes quite clearly (alas, not the subway scenes). It's definitely in the category of movies that are so campy that they're fun to watch, a la Plan 9 from Outer Space or Showgirls.
If you like R-27/30s, then The Warriors is for you. Those cars are used almost exclusively in the subway scenes, even though the IRT is implied for most of the return trip. Apparently the producers paid no attention to train markings, as they vary considerably. At one point, a "QB-Local via Bridge" interior route sign is visible.
A few other pointers: 96th St. is really Hoyt-Schermerhorn in disguise, and the "To 14th St. Subway" sign was on a station pillar at the Union Square station on the BMT Broadway line. I remember those signs very well. You can also momentarily see an R-12/14 heading up a 4 train at the IRT Union Square station.
Another scene I believe took place on the tracks just outside Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. Station. The scene is when one of the gang members and the girl was walking along the tracks and she tried to seduce him. During this scene a JFK Express train (3 car R-46) passed by them.
Wayne
Its always been a bit of a cult film over here in the UK (and freely available on video - on TV as recently as last Winter)A great film I think - with great music !.
At one point , after their confrontation with a street gang (The Orphans) - they rush onto a train at an unmarked station on the el which has "BMT Divsion" above the station house.Does anyone know which location this is.?
I particularly like the opening shots of Coney Island - though what appears to be the Fulton St line is shown (head on views)- anyone know if I am correct sitting here in suburban Britain ??
Many thanks.
Yes as far as I know it is the Fulton line. As for the BMT station I think it is somewhere ion the J. It is a good film. I have it on video. The write up on this site gives good information.
Simon
Swindon UK
The exterior of "96th Street" is actually the 72nd-B'way IRT station, "north of Verdi Square" as it is described elsewhere on NYC Subway Resources.
Now, let's trace the Warriors' progress from Van Cortlandt Park to "good ol' Cee Eye":
Big gang summit meeting in VCP. Gang leader Cyrus murdered; Warriors' leader Cleon attacked by Cyrus' gang (fate unknown); police arrive, all hell breaks loose, remaining eight Warriors escape into nearby boneyard (Woodlawn Cemetary?). Rembrandt, the spray-painter, spots elevated train, presumably the White Plains Road IRT.
To the tune of "Nowhere to Run" (NOT Martha & the Vandellas' version), the gang is seen running thru the streets of the Bronx, ducking and hiding. Finally, they're under the el at a station, waiting for a train to come in. If they stand on the platform they could get "japped" (gang parlance for ambushed) by the local thugs. You see, our "heroes" have been blamed for Cyrus' murder (but don't yet know it), and now they may have to rumble all the way home.
Soon a train comes in, just as the neighborhood bullies drive by in a school bus. The Warriors run up the stairs, jump the 'stiles, and onto the train - pursued by no one! (I think it's here where we see the "QB VIA BRIDGE" sign.)
The boys think they're home-free, but their train is soon held up by a building fire next to the el. The Warriors walk south through the area to the next station, and are confronted by the Orphans, a two-bit Puerto Rican gang. The two groups "parley." (In Sol Yurick's book, mention is made here of the "Intervale Avenue Lesbos," which is why I believe the first part of the journey is on the 2/5 line.) Negotiations are derailed by the Orphans' moll, Mercy, who is willfully abducted by the Warriors in the ensuing altercation. Soon, they're back on the IRT.
Next is the big set piece at "96 St." The gang's local train is waiting for an express connection. A TA "transit bull" (cop) spots the Warriors and they book, police in tow. The gang splits up: three leave the station; another trio manage to get a southbound train; Swan (the new leader) and Mercy run off; and the last one wrestles with a cop, who throws him onto the track as a train is coming in! (This scene is described pretty transit-accurately in Yurick's book.)
Now we're in mid-movie, which is fairly light on subway content: mainly the tunnel argument/kiss with Swan and Mercy("96 St" again). Meanwhile, one faction has the famous rumble with the pinstripe-clad, face-painted Baseball Furies, followed by one of them getting arrested by an undercover female cop. The other three make it to Union Square, the decided-upon rendezvous point for some stupid reason. There they are met by a female gang, the Lizzies. They all go to the Lizzies' clubhouse, where the girls try to exact revenge for Cyrus' death. This is the first time any of them has heard about the frame-up. They escape back to Union Square, where they hook up off-camera with two of the others.
I'll continue this in a separate post.
The "QB-Local via Bridge" sign is visible in the sequence with the two prom couples, by which time the train is underground. IIRC one of the side signs says "Ninth Ave." where they jump the turnstiles and scramble aboard the train. They are being pursued, but the doors close just in the nick of time (you can also see one of the Warriors pulling a door leaf out of the pocket as the doors close).
Hey now, my Man!! you sure have researched this one. It's a pretty accurate synopsis of it for someone who might not have seen the movie. I have it at home and from time to time I take it out and get a good chuckle out of it.
Great soundtrack to go along with it including the closing scene where they are walking away on the beach, credits rolling, that is the original version of "IN THE CITY", by Mr. "Can I do another line with you" himself, Joe Walsh. He wrote it and that's the one they used . We are used to the Eagles version recorded later. There are two different versions. Check it out.
One of my favorite scenes, is when they arrive in Coney in the morning, you see the bleak urban Coney landscape and someone is quoated as saying " THIS IS WHAT WE FOUGHT ALL NIGHT TO GET BACK TO!!!" Oh great line! Today a line like that would never fly because of political correctness. Some tourism or chamber of commerce groupe would boycot the film saying it is depicting them in a bad light... blah blah blah.
How far this system has come in the graffiti battle. This is what NYC looked like 20 years ago.
Waaaaariors, come out and plaaaaaaaay!
Actually, I have seen the movie dozens of times, and have it on tape. Unfortunately, it's a Beta Hi-Fi tape...my old Sony still works perfectly, but the tape is buried under hundreds of others. I never got around to buying it on VHS. If Paramount puts out a decent DVD edition I'll have it.
By the way, the key line is "Warriors...come out TO play-ay!"
If you got to see it on ABC-TV in the early 80s, there was an extra scene at the beginning (before the Wonder Wheel): the various Warriors on the boardwalk at CI talking about Cyrus and the truce. This was sometime in the afternoon. Prominently seen is an old warehouse with the word "Warriors" painted large on it. That warehouse was still there as late as January 1989, still painted. Also, at the end where the Gramercy Riffs close in on the leader of the Punks, the ABC version cut abruptly to a shot of a police car screaming down a CI street - and then to commercial. The movie resumed with deejay Lynn Thigpen's apology and the end titles ("Somewhere out on that horizon..."). (I COULD beef about Thigpen's unorthodox method of cuing a record on air, and the fact that a radio station doesn't normally have 24-track recording equipment, but...)
You're right: the soundtrack album is GREAT!
Are you in radio? How do you know that?
The Line seems pretty accurate to me marty, even now. I know because i am from coney island, as for the graffiti battle, the MTA told the Transit police "We'll clean 'em if you keep 'em clean"
The boys think they're home-free, but their train is soon held up by a building fire next to the el. The Warriors walk south through the area to the next station, and are confronted by the Orphans, a
two-bit Puerto Rican gang. The two groups "parley."
And then comes one of the movie's most memorable scenes. The head of the Orphans tells the Warriors that they can walk through the Orphans' turf, but they'll have to take off their "colors." The head of the Warriors ponders this for a moment, and then, in a very matter-of-fact manner, delivers a two-word reply. Those words were not "Happy Birthday" :-)
Getting a tad OT here. But I just thought of something...when the Warriors first encounter the Bronx Orphans, Swan (I think) makes a remark about the other gang's lowly status. (They don't have a "youth officer," nor were they invited to Cyrus' big powwow.) Well, if the Orphans are so minor league how do any of the Warriors know about them at all?
But what's a bad cult movie without plot inconsistencies?
How did they get from 96th St. (which I am assuming is on the 1/2/3/9) to Union Sq. (on the N/R/4/5/6)? They said that USQ was the only place where they had to change trains.
That's one of the mysteries of this movie!
Let's assume that our "heroes," from Coney Island, have never been very far from their turf and aren't familiar with the Eighth Wonder. Or let's just say that USQ, with its many ramps and passages, was a more attractive filming location than the transfer from the West Side lines.
Mercy and Swan have had their little discussion, and rejoin their comrades at Union Square where all are soon spotted by another gang. The Warriors lead their rivals into a mens' room (imagine that...a subway restroom open in the middle of the night in the late 1970s), and win an exceptionally wild brawl.
The last bits of subway content take place on the BMT, presumably the N (they WERE at Union Square, headed to Coney). There's the staredown with the formally-dressed couples, and finally the arrival at Stillwell.
Now, let's retrace their journey. The 2/5 from near the end of the line (the book refers to "a street called two, three, three," which is near Woodlawn Cemetary), interrupted by fire somewhere south of East 180 St (say, Simpson St). They board again at, say, Intervale (remember the book's "Lesbos" reference) and go to "96 St" where their local waits for an express. BUT...didn't the 2 run EXPRESS overnights back then? As I recall the scene their train was definitely "against the wall," even if it was really Hoyt-Schermerhorn!
And what's all this about Union Square? Granted, these Coney Island kids probably didn't know much about NYC outside their turf. But even the semi-literate Rembrandt should have found a better connection from the 2 to the BMT, even as they were trying to avoid the cops and rival gangs. Forget Times Square. If they got off the 2 at 14 St. they would have seen the transfer to 6th Ave trains - the F, the D running local (late night), and possibly the B, all Coney-bound. Or avoid a Manhattan transfer altogether and change at Atlantic-Pacific (which must have been a damn scary station late nights back then). But, NOOO...they gotta take the L down 14 St. (probably after a long wait) to Union. Or maybe they were REALLY mixed up and got the 7 or Shuttle down 42nd to GCT, then took the Lex downtown...AARRRGH!
Even with this particularly crazy commute, "The Warriors" happens to be one of my favorite flicks among many cult movies. (And mind you, I've seen that OTHER cult film, the famous one with Tim Curry, over 1,200 times in theatres.) Also, "The Warriors" is the specific thing which sparked my interest in subways. It's definitely one to own on DVD...if only Paramount's DVDs weren't so expensive!
Thanks for the rundown. Now I want to see the film.
I've seen that OTHER cult film, the famous one with Tim Curry, over 1,200 times in theatres
1,200 times, really? That's like, twice a week, every week, for twelve years? Wow!
I've only see the movie a few times. I hate sad endings. I missed it when it was originally on stage as "The Rocky Horror Show," but I still get to hear Tim Curry a few times a week when my kids watch "The Wild Thornberries." Excellent kid's cartoon.
You could always go see the revival on Broadway right now. Not half bad.
There's a revival of of the Warriors on B'way, I was not aware of it. What theater is it at? I would love to see it
Peace,
ANDEE
No...he meant a revival of "The Rocky Horror Show," the 1973 musical which later became the infamous midnight movie.
The way B'way is going, though, somebody just MIGHT do a musical version of "The Warriors"!!
I hope it comes to London.
Simon
Swindon UK
I have mixed feelings about stage revivals. About 20 years ago I took my mother to see a stage revival of West Side Story. She especially wanted to see it because an old actor friend of hers was playing Doc.
It was interesting to see the original staging and how the dances were performed on stage, where they didn't have the movie advantages of cutting, reshooting and camera angles. But frankly, I liked the movie better (despite the omissions from the play). At least I can see the movie as it was performed while the play was still fresh (1961). I wonder if Rocky Horror might not be the same.
Depends on the production. Reviewers are shredding the touring production of "The Sound of Music" (currently in Washington D.C.)
I've seen three live versions of "Rocky Horror": one was a college summer production (not bad); another, a slightly conservative professional show. But the one in D.C. in late 1990 (Wooly Mammoth) kicked my butt thru the back wall of the theatre! Even wilder at times than the movie. Please note that the play is somewhat different than the movie...for example, Rocky has DIALOGUE! And yes, there can be a certain amount of audience participation during the play.
I saw excerpts of the B'way revival on "Rosie O'Donnell" and was rather disappointed. Joan Jett as Columbia does nothing for me.
My favorite version of "Rocky" is the 1990 London cast CD, which includes most of the dialogue as well as the songs. However, there's a bootleg recording from the same production in which Richard O'Brien himself (the creator of "Rocky Horror") plays Dr. Frank N. Furter! Incredible.
Now...back to the subways!
>>> But frankly, I liked the movie better (despite the omissions from the play). At least I can see the movie as it was performed while the play was still fresh (1961) <<<
Paul;
That's not a fair criticism. The stage and cinema are two different media, and to compare the two, unless the movie is just a filmed stage production is apples and oranges. I saw and enjoyed West Side Story as a movie first (in Cairo with French and Arabic subtitles bringing three different sets of audience reactions), and later saw a version as theater in the round. Because the stage is in the center of the theater, and all entrances and exits were through the aisles, it was altogether different from the Broadway production. And as far as seeing the movie when the play was fresh is concerned, you missed it by a few centuries, since it was fresh when it was performed in the Globe Theater, and every other performance has been an adaptation.
Tom
I wasn't comparing stage and cinema en masse. I was saying specifically that the movie of West Side Story was better than the stage production I saw and I suspect the movie could be better than any stage production due to advantages of the medium and the fact that the movie production was mounted by the original producer and choreographer.
Movies have the advantage of being more in control of their material than plays, so they show off the skills or flaws of their production much more readily. Conversely, there are plays that are so specifically made for the stage, that almost any movie is doomed.
There is another point I was trying to make, however, when I say that an advantage some movies may have is that they're usually staged more contemporaneous to their material. When WSS was made in 1961, the concept and setting were fresh in people's minds--the '50s gangs, the big increase in Puerto Rican population at a time when that community was yet not an established part of the NYC culture. Discussions of WSS were in the papers and sociologists mulled it over. There were even comical takeoffs--I remember a TV skit in which the rival gangs were portrayed as baseball teams who danced from base to base--but you can imagine what happened when someone yelled "Kill the Ump!"
Someone producing West Side Story today almost certainly has to reference the play and former productions more than the social setting than hatched the original--as Paul McCartney said so aptly: "you can't rewarm a souffle."
Those 1,218 shows were spread out over more than 20 years. I'm more or less retired from the RHPS scene now.
The D has been running express along 6th Ave. 24/7 ever since July 1, 1968.
That lavatory brawl took five days to shoot, incidentally.
Frankly, they could have paid more attention to train markings, at least where the BMT is implied.
The D has been running express along 6th Ave. 24/7 ever since July 1, 1968.
That lavatory brawl took five days to shoot, incidentally.
Frankly, they could have paid more attention to train markings, at least where the BMT is implied.
The D has been running express along 6th Ave. 24/7 ever since July 1, 1968. And yes, the 2 was still running express 24/7 between 96th St. and Chambers St. at that time.
That lavatory brawl took five days to shoot, incidentally.
Frankly, they could have paid more attention to train markings, at least where the BMT is implied.
I have The Warriors on video.
It is one of the more bizarre films ever made, so I understand it's underground cult status. I once rented it and screened it with a bunch of friends who never saw it before. I got the same impression from everyone: very bizarre, complete confusion about it's plot, but they loved it anyway.
I realized last night that "The Warriors" has a plot that's somewhat similar to the German TV movie "Das Boot" (The Boat, released in theatres in the U.S.). It's World War II, and a Nazi U-boat (submarine) is trying to get thru enemy waters to its home port, with various crises along the way. Great film.
Fans of "The Warriors" should also check out the comic book trade paperback "300," by Frank Miller. It's based on the same story as "The Warriors"...and note that in Sol Yurick's book of "The Warriors" one of the gang is reading a comic book based on that same story!
Totally off topic but if you want to exercise a Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound system, the Das Boot DVD is incredible.
-Dave
>>> I realized last night that "The Warriors" has a plot that's somewhat similar to the German TV movie "Das Boot" (The Boat, released in theatres in the U.S.) <<<
Any similarity is a coincidence, since "Das Boot" was based on Lothar Guenther Buchheim's anti-war autobiographical novel, which I read in both English and German after seeing the movie. And rather than a TV movie as we think of them here, the movie was edited down from a six hour mini series, and did have a German theatrical run. The movie was quite faithful to the parts of the book that it used.
Tom
I stand corrected. Thanks. Now, if only they'd release the complete mini-series on video here!
Yes, as it's a perfect showing of the system at the depths of despair in the late 1970's.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Warriors the good guys in that opus? And weren't they from Brooklyn? And weren't the bad guys who killed that African-American leader and tried to pin it on the Warriors from the Bronx or Manhattan? Just asking. And don't take me seriously. I'm having a little fun. I told you guys I really enjoyed the North Bronx. But Brooklyn is for the good guys.
The Warriors were the main focus of the film, not exactly "good guys," more like "anti-heroes." Their turf was Coney Island and vicinity. The Punks was the name of the gang whose leader shot Cyrus; their turf was never identified.
In Sol Yurick's 1965 book, "The Warriors" refers to all gang members; the focus is on a group called the Coney Island Dominators, led by "Arnold" (Cleon in the movie). In the book, "Ismael" is the Cyrus character, and his death is the result of confusion, rather than an assassination. There is no attempt to frame the Dominators, and only a fleeting reference to a deejay. The book's equivalent of Mercy never leaves the Bronx; instead, she's abandoned after the gang have their way with her. One of the Dominators finds himself in Times Square, and later has an encounter with a hooker (the book's equivalent of the subway lavatory brawl). In the park near 96th Street, all three Dominators accost the woman and are busted (and she's NOT an undercover cop). Finally, the book's ending is nowhere near as satisfying as the movie's: the book's equivalent of Swan, a black kid, climbs up to his family's squalid tenement apartment and falls asleep on the fire escape.
The book is still a very good read for fans of the movie.
What I'd like to find is a copy of "Warriors of the Wasteland" or "1990: Bronx Warriors" (circa, 1980). Both are "Mad Max" rip-offs in that the storylines are set in post-nuclear holocaust socieites where the 'remnants of humanity' go about battling each other for three precious commodities: arms, gasoline, and water (not necessarily in that order). They're great for laughs for those who enjoy bizarre-action filmmaking.
I believe both movies were set in the Bronx (but if memory serves me, only one of them was filmed on location -- in or around Charlotte Street -- ground zero of the South Bronx devastation of the '70's).
BMTman
Thank you, I had not heard of these movies! I'm interested with anything filmed in the south Bronx and when you mentioned Charlotte, that was even better. A horror film was shot there in 1981. Hollywood actually erected a church in the Charlotte whole for the movie if you can believe that. It's about a man eating wolf living in that abandoned church in the South bronx. LOL!!!!
I guess with all the blight and urban decay going on in that area at that time; Hollywood still could not find that perfect abandoned bldg so they had to build their own!!
The movie was called "Wolfen", and not really worth seeing. I like the urban landscape and the vintage footage taken of the Big whole on Charlotte street. It's worth renting just to see the social and urban changes that have happened in 15 years up there.
OTHERS: Forth Apache the Bronx
escape from the Bronx 1999
Bonfire of the vanities
Wild style.
All of these have been shot up in the Bronx in the early to mid 80's in a time where the southern part of that borough was looking more and more like Beirut.
It's nice to know my twin boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens have never been portrayed in such a negative manner. And the Sea Beach starts in Queens and ends in Brooklyn, an added bonus.
the 43rd still has its hands full
Fort Apache ... now that was a pretty good movie, portrayed the "urban wasteland" scene quite well. I don't remember if it had any subway scenes, however.
Switching from the Bronx to Scotland for a minute, Trainspotting is another excellent movie along the same lines. It follows a bunch of drug addicts who hang out in abandoned buildings. But despite its title, there's practically no rail content.
OK Doug, here goes. What does Charlotte Street look like today? I saw pictures of it in 1977 and it looked like Warsaw, Poland in 1945. Has there been real progress made there. And does anyone have any pictures of it to show us? I really enjoyed the North Bronx, so much so, I didn;t have time to meander into what for me is enemy territory. I will next time, but it would be nice to know if that street has made a comeback of sorts.
there is a repair shop there. It aint good. I'll be there wednsday. I'll take pix and post them
I went to the TM yesterday to get a 2/3 shirt, but there was none in my size. I end up getting a 4 train shirt that was fresh from the box. Also fresh from the box is the "L" train shirt. Hurry, the TM expects it to go like hotcakes........
Well... I have the 1..
If they got a 9... I'm cooked.
As the expression goes, I'll believe it when I see it.
About a year ago, someone connected with the Flatbush terminal redevelopment asked me for a picture of the old station. He said they were hoping to build the new structure to look similar to the old one. I hope that is still in their plans.
Too bad the city fathers didn't let Peter O'Malley build his new Ebbets Field there. Would have been an ideal locale transportation wise like MSG
Too bad the city fathers didn't let Peter O'Malley build his new Ebbets Field there. Would have been an ideal locale transportation wise like MSG
I recall reading that the city did offer the site to O'Malley, but he decided that Los Angeles was a better place for the team and declined the offer.
You're right, though, the site is excellent in terms of transit access.
What I read (Howard Cosell's autobiography) was that Walter O'Malley did want the stadium there. At the time, the LIRR was privately owned and who had a big chunk of stock?......Walter O'Malley. The city offered to build him what is in effect today Shea Stadium. He turned them down.
It should also be mentioned that he had already bought (at the time) relatively inexpensive land in the LA area called Chavez Ravine. Once LA consented to build Dodger Stadium on that land, the deal was done.
In retrospect, despite the conflict of interest, the city should have acceded to O'Malley's request. It probably would have saved Downtown Brooklyn through the 60's and 70's, not to mention the source of pride to Brooklynites in having a major sport franchise with the Brooklyn name. (I haven't lived in NY since 1972, so I don't know what's Downtown now. My grandmother went through it after the 1977 blackout and said it looked like it had been hit with a pogrom!!!)
IIRC Robert Moses had a lot to do with the new Dodger ballpark not being built at Atlantic and Flatbush.
I can't say for sure, but he probably had a lot to do with the Shea offering. I believe it was on public land at the World's Fair site (1939 and 1964) near a confluence of planned or existing highways. That seems to fit the Moses style.
According to Moses's book PUBLIC WORKS, in June 1953 O'Malley wanted to shoehorn a plan for a new stadium into the Title I rebuilding of Fort Greene but that Moses rejected it because adding such a building would have contravened federal Title I guidelines and jeopardized the entire plan.
Like much in PUBLIC WORKS, this does not have the conspicuous ring of truth. Moses himself admits that the project was analogous to the Coliseum, being built with Title I funds at Columbus Circle.
According to THE POWER BROKER, Moses also blocked something called the City Sports Authority, which would have been charged with keeping both the Dodgers and the Giants in town.
This would be a response to Keychains posted by me on Thu Oct 26 12:51:50 2000.
Not only are the lucite and metal keychains have the C with an orange bullet bullet for 47-50 Rock Center, there are now coffee mugs for the station, with B, F, and Q in orange bullets, and C IN A BLUE BULLET! Who designs these products, anyway?
Kalikow wants to take over the PATH do we can have a unified fare. So far the Port Authority says no. Both state legislatures and the fedrl govt have to approve. Of course we can not have track connections but a single fare structure with free transfer between PATH and NYCT bus/subway. SOURCE:WCBS TV
That works wonderfully here in Boston. My monthly MBTA commuter pass gives me unlimited access to:
Commuter rail trains up to and including my "zone."
All rapid transit and streetcar lines
All bus and trackless lines
Boston Harbor water shuttle.
As an added benefit, I can:
Take a friend for free on any service all day on Sunday
Receive 15% off the comprehensive part of my auto insurance (by sending the used passes to them upon renewal)
My employer also subsidizes my pass (50%), but for those who can't take advantage of this kind of program, the MBTA sells annual pass subscriptions at the rate of 12 months for the price of 11.
Boston is in the center of its state, rather than half of a metropolitan area which spans 2 (or more) states, which is the case for most metro areas on the East Coast (NY, Philly, DC). This is because rivers form the center of physical cities, but political boundaries. Hence the need for bi-state agencies such as PANYNJ, DRPA, etc. However, I agree that SEPTA definitely needs to consolidate its fare structure. The way it's set up now, Philadelphia County may as well be a separate state from Pennsylvania, making a 5 state metro area.
[Kalikow wants to take over the PATH do we can have a unified fare. So far the Port Authority says no. Both state legislatures and the fedrl govt have to approve. Of course we can not have track connections but a single fare structure with free transfer between PATH and NYCT bus/subway. SOURCE:WCBS TV]
Heh I'm all in favor of a unified fare, but I think I'd rather see everything including the MTA taken over by New Jersey Transit . . .
We need to stop thinking of isolationism-- people freely cross the artifical borders between NJ and NJ constantly. Perhaps it is time for a new agency --the RTA (Regional Transportation Authority) which would include the current MTA agencies(NYCT,LIRR,MNRR, Bridges/Tunnels), PATH,Airports,Lincoln/Holland/S.I.Bridges, GW Bridge, NJT, HBLR, Newark Subway, etc. Both states would have responsibility for this agency. Each agency would have representatives on the RTA. NY has already realized this and created the MTA. One of the first things the RTA (if established) should do is one ticket on the railroads--ie Trenton to Montauk, White Plains to Trenton, Wassaic to Babylon, etc. PATH, HBLR, NYCT, Newark Subway should use the MetroCard with a two hour span for transfer./Customers to/from NYCT should be allowed two transfers such as is done with S.I. at present.
[Subway should use the MetroCard with a two hour span for transfer./Customers to/from NYCT should be allowed two transfers such as is done with S.I. at present. ]
They really should have unlimited transfers within 2 h period.
Arti
[We need to stop thinking of isolationism-- people freely cross the artifical borders between NJ and NJ constantly. Perhaps it is time for a new agency --the RTA (Regional Transportation Authority) which would include the current MTA agencies(NYCT,LIRR,MNRR, Bridges/Tunnels), PATH,Airports,Lincoln/Holland/S.I.Bridges, GW Bridge, NJT, HBLR, Newark Subway, etc.]
I had almost the identical thought last night! I was reading the EIS for the East Side Access Project, and then I was reading about the Access to the Region's Core project, and one of the main problems with what they're doing is that everybody's working at cross purposes.
To avoid the sort of petty squabbles that have beset the Port Authority, they could start with a subsidy/capital construction formula based on the actual cost of providing services to each state's residents -- so that for example if NJ residents accounted for 1/3 the overall costs above the cost of the fare NJ would pay 1/3 of the bills.
I would love for PATCO to take over management of SEPTA! Just imagine: $1.10 fares, free transfers, subway cashiers who make change, busses that run on schedule and don't skip stops with passengers waiting, conductors that don't curse or use racial slurs, random drug tests for train operators, a NE subway, and commuter rail to Reading, West Chester, and Newtown... wow!
One cool thing about merging PATH with the subway is they could eliminate the walls on 14th St/6th Ave and create an accross the platform transfer.
How about merging the fare structure of the Long Island Railroad and Metro Nroth Railroad? The fare zones are comparable, and I reckon you could make, say Hicksville and Hartsdale the same "zone". And then you could buy one ticket from Long Island to Westchester or beyond for less than the cost of two commuter railroad tickets. Until they connect the LIRR to GCT and MNRR to Penn*, they should also make the tickets scannable for a riade on the subway between the two systems, either via Penn or Woodside.
*I have heard plans to use the physical connection already in place to run Metro North's Hudson and New Haven lines into Penn, but they'll never have the capacity to do so until LIRR is connected to GCT and some LIRR trains can vacte Penn.
:-) Andrew
BRAVO, YEA, do it now! Frankly I don't care it the agencies are merged (in fact its better not because then the various unions might all have contracts expire in concert) but making the services more seamless for the riders YESYES YES. And thanks to electronics(actually paper works just as well) there are fewer excuses for not instituing these intersystem fares. Step one MTA farecard valid for PATH (I am sure the bean counters can figure out a method for revenue division) In Chicagoland the NICTD and RTA seem to be able to administrate South Shore Line service, although they have not yet figured out simply letting Metra riders use SSL trains within Chicago without different tickets. Older railfans may remember that in PRR times a single fare structure existed between PRR and LIRR for trips over both systems. Everything old is new again
I just heard on the news that SEPTA's fares may go up as much as
$2.00!! They also plan to raise the price of tokens, but they didn't
say by how much yet. Although I don't use SEPTA on a daily basis, I'm
already starting to hoard tokens for use when I visit my friends in
Philly or when I railfan, so it will be a while before the fare
increase affects me. As of now, I haven't heard any date on when the
fare increase will go into affect. When the fares do go up, I hope
there will be a sharp drop in ridership to the point that the fare
increase will hurt SEPTA more than help them, prompting them to
lower the fares again to lure riders back. SEPTA riders, start
hoarding your tokens!!!
1}
2}
3}
4}
avid
How much higher can those go? I don't have SEPTA tokens and they have cheated me on the fares as it is. They once said you couldn't transfer from the 44 to the MFL.
Click here for the Thursday Daily News story about Kalikow telling the Daily News editorial board that the TA is running tests to see whether it can maintain G service along with the V and the others.
Thanks for posting that.
That's good news. I was willing to accept the proposed service plan, and I'm interested to see how they factor in the rolling stock issue, but I'm not one to quibble when MTA tries to be considerate of riders. Good for them, good for us.
Based on the number of TPH they plan to run for the G, the total between the G, R and V trains probably won't be as many as the combined B, D and Q between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center.
The main handicap will be the number of available cars, though if they cut the V back to eight car R-32 trains instead of running 10 car R-32s or eight car R-46s, that might free up enough rolling stock to cover the extension of the G back to Continental Ave...
...or they could tell the insurance company to take a flying leap on their liability fears and just move some of the surplus Redbirds over to the B Division and put skirts on them to handle the car shortage until the R-143s go into service.
To scrape up equipment for an extended G, rather than cut the V trains in length
1) cut the M to 6 cars
2) cut the Z back to 111th Street
2) put R110's on the Franklin Shuttle (either extend the platforms 50 feet or cut them to 2 cars) to free up 4 R68's.
>>1) cut the M to 6 cars<<
Ever rode on a rush hour M train?
>>2) put R110's on the Franklin Shuttle (either extend the platforms 50 feet or cut them to 2 cars) to free up 4 R68's.<<
1. They aren't going to extend any platforms.
2. 4 R68's. Big whoooop. How about running that 9 car train on Queens Plaza. Then you get 9 more cars.
Send 54 M 1 s from the LIRR to Staten Island for the 60 R/44s. Take these SI R/44 to the "A" . Take 80 r/38s from "A" to the "C". Take 80 r/32 from the "C" to the "V".
Maybe the R/110b to the Rock Park shuttle , frees 8 R/44s , dominoes to 10 more r/32s to the "V"
avid
The LIRR doesn't have any M-1's to spare, and SIRT would require clearance work for 85' cars.
You're right on the first, wrong on the second, see.
That looks like diesel cars, or at least to my untrained eyes. I didn't know there were electric cars that look like that? Or did they have a few horses come and drag the train along?
:-) Andrew
Those are the same exact cars as the coaches just retired from the LIRR. They used to be MUs, but were castrated after the arrival of the M-1.
Now THAT is cool; a three-eyed Owl car with plain rubber seals (not the rivets) around the "eyes"; that is one of the ZIPs' I think they call it MP-72 - that's short of the 85 feet the M-1 class is - anyway there is no curve that I know of (WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION of one near Saint George) on the SIR that is so tight it would preclude the use of an 85-foot car. Please correct me if I am wrong here. That wouldn't be a bad idea, sending M-1s to the SIR once the M-7s start arriving.
wayne
The one near St George is the one I was thinking that the MP72's couldn't handle.
>>1) cut the M to 6 cars<<
>>Ever rode on a rush hour M train?
Everyone says here the ones from Brooklyn in the morning are under-utilized.
>>2) put R110's on the Franklin Shuttle (either extend the platforms 50 feet or cut them to 2 cars) to free up 4
R68's.<<
>> They aren't going to extend any platforms.
They could do it in a weekend. Whether they wan to or not is irrelevant.
>>2. 4 R68's. Big whoooop. How about running that 9 car train on Queens Plaza. Then you get 9 more cars.
4 R68's is one G train. Three of the R110's are dead. When their donor parts are depleted, the middle cars go next, then the R143's arrive, and they scrap the whole thing.
...or they could tell the insurance company to take a flying leap on their liability fears and just move some of the surplus Redbirds over to the B Division and put skirts on them to handle the car shortage until the R-143s go into service.
RRRRRIIIIGGGGHHHHTTTTT !!!!!!
"The main handicap will be the number of available cars, though if they cut the V back to eight car R-32 trains instead of running 10 car R-32s or eight car R-46s, that might free up enough rolling stock to cover the extension of the G back to Continental Ave..."
Can they cut the G to 4 cars instead of 6?
N Bwy
Or as another possible compromise: extend G service to Queens Plaza, instead of stopping at Court Square.
That would only be one station further than the proposed plan -- no need find extra rolling stock to go all the way to Forest Hills -- and provide a platform-to-platform transfer for G riders to go to Manhattan or on to Queens. Much of the coverage I've seen has focused on the long hike between Court Square and 23rd Street.
Nowhere for the (G) to turn arround at Queens Plaza, not without getting in the way of both express tracks. The first place north of Court Square where it could conceivably turn arround is 46th St/Broadway, since there is a crossover between that stop and Northern Blvd. But even that would mean holding up the (R) and (V), and 46th dosen't have facilities that terminals usually have.
[Nowhere for the (G) to turn arround at Queens Plaza]
True. My thought was that the G could slide into Queens Plaza between Rs, then quickly return southward on the track it came in on. A return T/O would have to be waiting. Perhaps plain infeasible. But all the options aren't very good.
That would really hold up the (R).
:-) Andrew
Could there be a plan where you run the G service to Continentle on weekends and off-peak weekdays? It's only during rush-hours that the system is short cars and turn-arounds at Queens Plaza would tie up the rest of the line. At least the people who live on the southern end of the G could have some one-seat service to Forest Hills for a part of the time.
[run the G service to Continentle on weekends and off-peak weekdays]
Even more likely (issue is not what is best). I could see MTA doing that. Congestion is less, cars are more available, and it would easier to completely cut the G off in the future.
Again, a lot of people here are absent of the fact that there are many more spare MUs than the TA leads you to believe. According to Joe Korman's Site:
CAR CLASS MU FLEET TOTAL MU IN SERVICE TOTAL SPARES
R32 (ALL) 594 520 74
R38 196 166 30
R40 SLANT 292 256 36
R40 MOD 100 73 27
R42 392 347 45
R44 278 232 46
R46 752 692 60
R68 425 389 36
R68A 200 172 28
R110B 9 6! 3!
R143 @ @
================================================================
3238 2853 385
!=MU class number may be 9 or 6.
@=On Order
The TA has 385 B Division spare MUs. All of these MUs are not being shopped at all times. Even if you factor that 50% of the spare MUs are in the shop, that still leaves 192 spare units, more than enough to operate "G" service to Forest Hills, "V" service at 8 or 10 cars, and perhaps enough to operate "G" at 8 or 10 cars during peak times.
I would propose to turn the "G" at 179, which has plenty of spare capacity as a terminal station. Ridership is there (33% increase according to the TA's own figures) and MU availabilty is present, as shown above.
"I would propose to turn the "G" at 179, which has plenty of spare capacity as a terminal station. Ridership is there (33% increase according to the TA's own figures) and MU availabilty is present, as shown above."
The V is better suited for that area (179th Terminal) than the G. Because it will provide a one trip ride to Manhattan.
N Broadway Line
Hey! I'm all for express-local service all the way 179th St. That was my whole speech at the MTA hearing--and when I was interviewed by Channel 7.
:-) Andrew
Could you show me the guy taking local from 179th St.
Let's not forget "the misguided commuter" from DN story who took 4 trains to CU.
Arti
show me the guy taking local from 179th St.
The guy on his way to a night job after getting off the N6 (one of the few nightly LI Bus services). Or the unfortunate souls who must ride Manhattan bound after about 11:30 P or Queensbound before 6:20 A.
I could show you any commuter from 179/169/Van Wyck who would be more than happy to take an alternate train than the "F".
I remember when Archer first went in, the rush hour R originated at 179, as did 5 of the E trains in the AM rush only. The local realators threatened to sue the TA for lowering their real estate values for giving local stations east of Continental a local R rather than the an E or F that ran express west of Continental. The outcome was to kill the R east of Continental, the few E's from 179 diverted to Archer, and the few F's that originated at Contintental extended to start at 179th.
Shame. The "R" should be extended to 179. Then you have plenty of room to turn the "G" and the "V".
Don't forget, even though the TA won't admit it, we have the rolling stock. Look up a few posts in this thread to see the nummber of MUs available.
"Shame. The "R" should be extended to 179."
As bad as some people claim the R is, I love it. Many times when I wait for the N, two R's shows up. That makes me sick to my stomach, since the N is much more crowded than the R.
N Bwy
That's funny. The R riders claim that 2 N's show up before the R comes!
I claim that zero Ns show up before the R never shows up.
The reason is clear.
Occasionally, for whatever reason, two of the same train show up consecutively when they're supposed to alternate. Say two X trains show up before a Y train arrives. If you're waiting for the Y train, you'll notice the discrepancy and probably post about it here. If you're waiting for the X train, you'll never know about the second one since (unless you just missed or didn't fit on the first one) you're not waiting anymore when it arrives.
So, naturally, N riders complain about successive R's while R riders complain about successive N's. They're both correct.
And if one stands there and does some train watching, on an hours time, both services will have an equlal number of trains. On the Queens IND, of course it is 1 E to 1 F. At times 2 or 3 of the same service comes in consecutively. But it balances out in time.
I've never seen 2 consecutive Fs before an E, but am very accustomed to seeing two consecutive Es before an F, and no I'm not biased, this is when monitoring the train sequence over time. It gets me very annoyed how people say there are 18Fs per hour and 12Es and I seem to have much greater chances of getting on an E at Roosevelt.
I don't agree that the "N" is as crowded as the "R", especially on the Queens IND section going to Manhattan in the AM, and going to Brooklyn in the PM. But the "N" is close.
Doesn't compare with the "B" heading southbound into Brooklyn, even on a Saturday lately!
Don't forget the (B)arely.
"That would only be one station further than the proposed plan -- no need find extra rolling stock to go all the way to Forest Hills -- and provide a platform-to-platform transfer for G riders to go to Manhattan or on to Queens. Much of the coverage I've seen has focused on the long hike between Court Square and 23rd Street."
That's not practical, they isn't enough time available to turn around trains without blocking the Queens Blvd Corridor. The only rational solution is to send the G to 71st Street and turn it around there.
N Broadway Line
Another reason to support my rant about the Q which should be going to Queens, or at least the express part of the Q. Think about it: If you run the Q to Qns Blvd then you save cars than if you run the V there. The new service proposed is Forest hills to 2nd Ave Manhatttan. If you implemented the Q to Queens and killed the V, you get new service going from 71 Ave {fine I'll let it end there} to 57 St and 7th Ave seeing as how the rest of the Q will be there anyway. That saves at least 3-4 trains worth of cars. These preciously saved cars can go to the G and since they can easily fit the G in the G can get out there. As for cars for the Q, put 2-3 R46s on it, and make 1 or 2 permanent R32s go to it too. So the cars come from both Jamaica and Coney Island. So what? The A isn't too much different.
I think there are two things going on with why the TA wants to cut back the G: 1) they're challenged with having to manage three different services on one track if they don't have to; and 2) they want to reserve all Queens Blvd. trackage for Manhattan service, finally realizing that it was a mistake to route the GG without direct Manhattan service 6-7 decades ago.
The big point with (2) is that they probably figured they could get away with eliminating the G at the same time they introduced the new V--since it would seem they're substituting something better for something worse.
OTOH, if they run the G, R and V altogether and THEN want to increase V service, they'll never be able to kill off the G.
You bring up excellent points. I would like to pursue your second point.
First, it should be noted that every tunnel crossing under the East River is two tracks. I'm assuming this is due to cost considerations.
As a result, only the most "important" trains cross the river. For the basic IND, these were the single-lettered expresses.
The Washington Heights and Concourse lines have express and local service for the boroughs of the Bronx and "Upper Manhattan." There is no river major river crossing, since the Harlem is so narrow and shallow. Once reaching midtown, the need for local and express service seems to decline. There are only 3 pure local stops on the 8th Av line (50, 23, Spring) and none (prior to 1967) on the 6th Av line. The locals ended at Chambers St, 2nd Av/Bway-Laf or 34 St.
The Queens line does have a river crossing. The E and F both cross. Would there have been room for a third train in those times? Maybe not.
Now we look at the Brooklyn "extensions" of the IND. First, only two tracks cross the river. Maybe there are plans for only one express line on each crossing. Two tracks come into Jay St. Now we come to 4 track extensions on both Fulton and South Brooklyn. But where do the local trains come from? For South Brooklyn, the local from the Queens line is pressed into double duty. The GG is born, though it never fulfills its destiny in South Brooklyn except for a few short years in the early 1970's. It also gives the IND a foothold in Williamsburg, Greenpoint and LIC.
Now let's go off on a tangent. Where does the local on Fulton St come from? When I was a kid in Rockaway, the roll signs on the HH claimed it was the Fulton St local. I had seen old maps with Court St station on them. I had seen the outside tracks at Hoyt/Schermerhorn. I thought, maybe the HH served the same purpose on Fulton St in days gone by that the GG was serving in Queens and potentially in South Brooklyn. Since there was no convenient place to go after Hoyt, it terminated and turned around at Court. Now, after over 30 years of speculation, I discover nycsubway.org and find that the HH, despite what the roll signs said, despite its potential, was used only as a one-stop shuttle for about 10 years between Hoyt and Court, in an area already well serviced by all 3 branches.
Back to Queens. The borough experiences phenomenal growth, but no major subway expansion. The first alleviation is connecting with the BMT via the 60th Street tunnel. Forty years later, this is still not enough. So now, let's go through another two track tunnel at 63rd. The proximity of this tunnel to the other two (53rd and 60th), and the fact it connects with both the 6th Av and Broadway lines, makes it, in fact, the two extra tracks to the first 4 track crossing from Queens. Enter the V.
But the Queens line supposedly can't take more than two expresses and two locals. (That's what we have had on CPW at rush hours for decades.) So eliminate the G. The problem is that the TA didn't count on ridership increases on the line. The free transfer with the L (another neglected line) is not adequate for people living in Greenpoint to get to midtown.
If the G can't go to Forest Hills anymore, how about this: build a spur from Court Sq to 21 St/Queensbridge and terminate it there.
I await your response.
If you're going to build a spur track, why not extend the G line to a new lower level at Queens Plaza and use the opportunity to upgrade Queens Plaza to full ADA standards. I use ADA as a standard because it not only serves the handicapped. It makes the station stroller, shopper and elderly-friendly and will allow station patrons to bring luggage onto the subway, meaning AirTrain (which will be fully ADA-compliant, including subway transfers) will be accessible to them too.
This has been discussed many times by many people. If the archive system is working, you can see the previous posts.
I wheeled my tool kit around the MTA for a year, and was extremely thankful for the improvements (even ramps) mandated by the ADA. especially the elevators!
Dave
Your points are well taken, especially when comparing the ease of crossing the Harlem vs. East Rivers.
The IND had a different philosophy of operation than the BMT. The BMT idea was to route every line possible to CBD destinations. Secondary local lines provide for the main service (In fact, highway planners call these "relief roads"--not the same as service roads).
So on the BMT the Brighton Local provided relief for the Brighton Express in addition to providing local services in Brooklyn and Manhattan. If the express was too crowded, the overflow went to the local where you could get less crowding or even a seat in exchange for a longer ride.
Likewise the 4th Avenue Local relieved the Sea Beach and West End and the Broadway Short Line relieved the Jamaica.
IND planners, OTOH, viewed local lines as feeders, so the HH was supposed to provide local service on the Fulton Street Line and the GG was supposed to a major bargain, providing local service on the Queens and Brooklyn (Coney Island) Lines and a Crosstown service between Brooklyn and Queens. Looked real good on paper.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a website or other resource where I can find information on the deeper levels of NYC's subway line, with special interest in those areas that might be abandoned? In addition to website URLs, suggestions of museums, books, etc. are welcome as well.
I'm currently working on a fiction series and need this information as part of my research.
Thank you.
Sencho
New York, NY
Here is a site with considerable information on abandoned subway stations.
Take it from a Documentarian:
Can't get an A without doing your footwork...
A little reading around the encyclopaedia
that be WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG (with even an
ounce of common sense in your cranium) would
not only win you the answers you seek--
..but it'll even make you look "smart".
Even UNDERground.
If you are really interested in researching it for yourself, Monday tuesday and wednesday 9th-11th next wk a couple of us are going down for a little urban exploration. You can tag a long and check it out for yourself, pics notes so on so forth.Let me know, if not check out
NYCforgotten, a great little urban pageall about NYC.
Let me know, Marty
OK, here's a dream: terminate the 2d Ave. line at the BMT platform at Brooklyn Bridge (next northbound stop, Grand Street). Run the current Nassau trains on the western tracks, 2d Ave. on the east. That would restore some of BB's functionality and just plain avoid all of the tunnel congestion at the tip of Manhattan. No connection to Broadway-Nassau, though.
[OK, here's a dream: terminate the 2d Ave. line at the BMT platform at Brooklyn Bridge (next northbound stop, Grand Street). Run the current Nassau trains on the western tracks, 2d Ave. on the east. That would restore some of BB's functionality and just plain avoid all of the tunnel congestion at the tip of Manhattan. No connection to Broadway-Nassau, though.]
Nassau Street is actually one of the two main options that will be considered for the Second Avenue Subway termination . . . it wouldn't be as convenient as a Water Street line for people in the business district but it would be a lot cheaper!
It seems to me that the lack of a Grand Street connection could be made up for by connecting the Bowery and Grand Street stations as part of the project.
Also, since 2/3 of the people coming in on the JMZ go to Midtown rather than downtown, what about taking half of the JMZ's and running them up 6th Avenue along the K route while letting the other half terminate at Chambers St., with the Second Avenue proceeding to Brooklyn. I think that would be win-win all around -- JMZ riders from Queens who go to Fulton and Broad would have to change trains, but that would more than be made up for by midtown access, while Second Avenue riders, who will have to deal with pokey all-local service, would get better access to Lower Manhattan.
Very good idea. Combination with B&D and assigning the cars which can run via Williamsburgh Bridge will eliminate some shuttles on 6 Ave line during construction of Manhattan Bridge.
"Also, since 2/3 of the people coming in on the JMZ go to Midtown rather than downtown, what about taking half of the JMZ's and running them up 6th Avenue along the K route"
You can't send the J/M/Z up 6th Avenue, there's too much traffic on 6th Avenue. But maybe you could send the Z to 6th Avenue since it only runs rush hours.
"Nassau Street is actually one of the two main options that will be considered for the Second Avenue Subway termination . . . it wouldn't be as convenient as a Water Street line for people in the business district but it would be a lot cheaper!"
True. But they could built it later once the money is found for it. The water street line could have a stop at South Ferry WhiteHall Street Station which would make the connection b/t the 1/9 and N/R possible.
As for the Nassau Street route, Second Avenue/Brooklyn service can be provided when traffic warrants it.
N Broadway Line
[You can't send the J/M/Z up 6th Avenue, there's too much traffic on 6th Avenue. But maybe you could send the Z to 6th Avenue since it only runs rush hours. ]
Where's the logic in this statement? BTW what makes you think that 6th Ave local tracks have too much traffic, I don't think so.
Arti
"Where's the logic in this statement? BTW what makes you think that 6th Ave local tracks have too much traffic, I don't think so."
Just look at the traffic there already? The B/D/ and Q runs back-to-back. When they send the Q back to Broadway, maybe one line can fit on the 6th Avenue express tracks, but not all these line as suggested before. Then, we have to figure out where this line is going to go. If second avenue was built, than it could go to 125th Street. But the Q from broadway suppose to go there. And Queens Blvd is out of the Question. The only other option is Central Park West. The express tracks is out of the question because of the A. {YOU DON'T WANT TO DELAY THE A EXPRESS!}. The only available option is the local tracks. Maybe they can send the Z to Bedford Park with the B, or 168th Street with the C. What I understand about the passenger flow that leads to 168th Street, the passenger flow is really low, so the Bronx is a better bet.
N Broadway Local
[Just look at the traffic there already? ]
Remember your statement? Send Z to 6th Ave, when does Z run? Rush hour! When would the tracks have most of the traffic? Rush hour!!!
[the 6th Avenue express tracks, but not all these line as suggested before]
Very stupid idea, as the WB tracks connect to 6th Ave locals.
BTW have you noticed that this site features track maps?
[{YOU DON'T WANT TO DELAY THE A EXPRESS!}. ]
You don't want to delay any train.
[The only available option is the local tracks. Maybe they can send the Z to Bedford Park with the B, or 168th Street with the C. What I understand about the passenger flow that leads to 168th Street, the passenger flow is really low, so the Bronx is a better bet. ]
Send it to QB via local, either through 53rd or 63rd, it could be the V.
Arti
[You can't send the J/M/Z up 6th Avenue, there's too much traffic on 6th Avenue. But maybe you could send the Z to 6th Avenue since it only runs rush hours.]
Why do you say there's too much traffic? The F doesn't use the full capacity of the 6th Avenue local tracks; in effect, the new JMZ/KK service would replace the new V service. Since the local tracks could only handle about half of the JMZ's, I suggested that the remainder go down to Chambers Street. Even if the F took 2/3 of the local tracks (I'm not sure what the exact frequency is) 1/3 of the JMZ's could still head uptown.
[True. But they could built it later once the money is found for it. The water street line could have a stop at South Ferry WhiteHall Street Station which would make the connection b/t the 1/9 and N/R possible.]
That's pretty much what I was thinking. Build the Second Avenue to the Nassau Street line, then add Water Street when they have the money.
[As for the Nassau Street route, Second Avenue/Brooklyn service can be provided when traffic warrants it.]
I would guess that that would happen soon enough. After all, from the perspective of Brooklyn passengers going to lower manhattan it makes no difference whether they take the JMZ or the 2nd Avenue, and how many people use the JMZ to travel between Brooklyn and Queens? A couple of new connections to the G would provide a much more direct route, or passengers could make one change.
[That's pretty much what I was thinking. Build the Second Avenue to the Nassau Street line, then add Water Street when they have the money. ]
Then the Water St line will never happen, as there would be more pressing places to build a line witch currently have lower priority over 2nd Ave.
Arti
"Then the Water St line will never happen, as there would be more pressing places to build a line witch currently have lower priority over 2nd Ave. "
I was afraid you would say that. Your right, if they do decide to build a Second Avenue Line and connect it to the Nassau Street Line, then they would be no reason to build a Water Street extension. And, as a result, the opportunity of tieing in the 1/9 N/R Lines will be just a dream.
N Broadway Line.
[And, as a result, the opportunity of tieing in the 1/9 N/R Lines will be just a dream. ]
Some connection between misc. Wall, Rector Street stations, as they all are VERY close.
Arti
Soooooooo! Having a connection will allow people coming from the downtown 1,9 line to get to the East side easier. And any connection with the 1,9 would be great since it doesn't connect to many lines well.
N Bwy
Whatever
Arti
How does a connection at the far south end of the 1/9 help its connectivity? Anyone coming from down there can easily walk to whichever line is most useful as they're all nearby.
The 1/9 already has a good connection to the N/R at Times Square, and its express complement, the 2/3, has more connections in Brooklyn. It's lacking in IND connections, not BMT connections -- all IND-IRT connections citywide (a) connect only to the local, (b) connect only to the express, or (c) involve a long connecting passageway.
I've noticed that too. 74th/Bwy/Roosevelt has express on the IND level, but local only up on the IRT, and it is a long walk (or escalator ride). It's even worse between the IND and IRT at 53rd/51st/Lex, not only is there only local at the IRT level, but for the enourmous crowd of passnegers there's ONE set of escalators--and really long ones, and then a walk up and down and up again. That connection never saves me time!
Columbus Circle isn't a long walk, but it's only to the local IRT. 14th St/7th Ave/6th Ave is a long walk, and while there is acces to local and express IRT there's only local IRT. 168th/Bwy isn't a long walk--it's an elevator, to local IRT only because express left local a long time ago. And at Bwy-Nassau St it's express-local IND to express only IRT, and the weirdest labyrinth of transfering imaginable.
Times Square is the only IND-IRT connection I can think of where local and express transfer to local and express, but even there it's a long walk, possibly the longest.
You might consider Atlantic-Pacific to be that too, since for now there are connections to the (B) and (D), and the 6th Ave (Q) , even if they are BMT at that point.
:-) Andrew
OOPS! I meant 6th Ave/14th is local only on the IND. My bad.
:-) Andrew
Just thought of another one--6th Ave/42 St. That has express and local (B)(D)(F)font color=gold>(Q) and express and local (7)<7>, but then that too is a long walk, if not as bad as some of the others.
:-) Andrew
OOPS! My stubborn and slightly inacurate route coloring backfired! Lesse: (B)(D)(F)(Q). That's better.
;-) Andrew
And now you know why I dislike the IND: it's a pain to get to. (I'm an IRT guy. Granted, I can walk to the IND in about ten minutes, but those CPW stations are spooky. Invariably I end up transferring at 59th instead -- well, except today, when I had a bit of time to kill so I transferred at 168th for a change.)
[Then the Water St line will never happen, as there would be more pressing places to build a line witch currently have lower priority over 2nd Ave.]
I think that's a very real possibility -- though I'm not sure I can think of many subway lines that are more important than the lower part of Water Street, since it's in such a crucial business area. OTOH, it could be framed as a "build to Nassau Street first" and then build Water Street, to speed things up. Eventually, Nassau Street would handle the express traffic and Water Street the local.
One possibility I was thinking about was to take the money saved by not building Water Street and spend it on making the line a four line express from 42nd to Brooklyn Bridge. The question is, would commuters gain more from the shorter 42nd-Brooklyn Bridge hop than commuters would lose by being two far from their destination?
I hope you don't base your distance calculations on Subway Map. In real life Water Street is is about 2 minutes away from Nassau line.
I recommend waling aroun that area, aspecially you could WASTE more time by entering the Subway thru the wrong entrance and then be forced to get to the desired line thru convoluted passages.
The cheapest and most effective improvement here would be to sign the entrances more informtively (i.e. 4,5 also entrance to A,E.......)
[One possibility I was thinking about was to take the money saved by not building Water Street and spend it on making the line a four line express from 42nd to Brooklyn Bridge. ]
I don't agree, especially currently the express saves you few minutes. Is it worth it?
Arti
[I hope you don't base your distance calculations on Subway Map. In real life Water Street is is about 2 minutes away from Nassau line.
I recommend waling aroun that area, aspecially you could WASTE more time by entering the Subway thru the wrong entrance and then be forced to get to the desired line thru convoluted passages.
The cheapest and most effective improvement here would be to sign the entrances more informtively (i.e. 4,5 also entrance to A,E.......)]
I was down there the other day, doing just that--walking around. What can I say except that the Nassau line is farther away, and adds to the walk? I think these things have to be seen in terms of total transit time. A couple of extra minutes walking to a destination isn't much, but add that to all the other transfers and commute time mounts up pretty quickly. The question is what's the most economical way to minimize it.
[I don't agree, especially currently the express saves you few minutes. Is it worth it?]
Again, the same thing. If they cost the same, does building an express save more time for more people, or building the line down Water Street?
One thing I've noticed is that people tend to choose the fastest alternative over the most comfortable one, e.g., they'll crowd into an express when the locals are half empty.
[they'll crowd into an express when the locals are half empty. ]
Ironically not alweay the fastest way (4,5 vs 6)
Arti
Did you ever stand in front of the West 4th Street Station? The F comes into that station every few minutes. With the new V line, it will make the schedule even tighter. As for replacing the V with one of the Eastern Division Lines, that doesn't make sense either. A better idea will be to send the line via Central Park West with the B/C, putting it in the bronx if possible.
N Broadway Line
[Did you ever stand in front of the West 4th Street Station? The F comes into that station every few minutes.]
It's my station. I repeat that the F doesn't use the full capacity of the local track. It can't, because it has to share space with the G. There's room on the local track, which is where they'll be running for the G.
[With the new V line, it will make the schedule even tighter. As for replacing the V with one of the Eastern Division Lines, that doesn't make sense either. A better idea will be to send the line via Central Park West with the B/C, putting it in the bronx if possible.]
?
The V will stop at the Second Avenue station. This way, rather than stopping it would run over the JMZ. There's no change in capacity.
I'm not sure what you mean about sending the line via Central Park West. The JMZ feeds the 6th Avenue local tracks rather than the express tracks.
[With the new V line, it will make the schedule even tighter. As for replacing the V with one of the Eastern Division Lines, that doesn't make sense either]
You claim it, you proove it!
Arti
The V only makes sense on the Eastern Division if it ran to Rockaway Parkway, giving passengers in the Canarsie area a one-seat ride to midtown. But with the new signaling system due to be installed on the L, that line won't be sharing trackage with anyone for any time in the near future.
"But with the new signaling system due to be installed on the L, that line won't be sharing trackage with anyone for any time in the near future."
What type of signal system is being installed? And how does that compare to the old signal system? Thanks all for comment.
N Bwy
From the MTA 2000-2004 Capital Plan, page 19:
"Under existing fixed-block signals, spacing betwen trains is predeterined to keep trains at a safe distance apart when they are operating at full speed. When train traffic is congested and running slowly, trains must still maintain the same separation, which in turn reduces the number of trains that can pass in a given time. With CBTC, or 'moving-block' signals, trains communicate with each other to maintain a safe separation distance that varies according to their relative speeds. This will increase train throughput and imporove flexibility of train operations while ensuring safe train operations."
CBTC is being installed first on the Canarsie Line because it's basically a back-and-forth two-track line that doesn't interchange trains with other lines. Once any bugs are worked out, it's expected that CBTC will become the standard installation throughout the NYC subway.
(NOTE: I don't want to engage in another debate about the relative merits of CBTC vs. fixed-block signaling, or whether the existing fixed-block system is being used to its fullest capabilities, or anything else related to signaling, scheduled headways, or throughput. I have been down that road before with at least one SubTalker, and while I think we all got something out of it, I don't see any advantage to a rerun.)
David
[CBTC is being installed first on the Canarsie Line because it's basically a back-and-forth two-track line that doesn't interchange trains with other lines. Once any bugs are worked out, it's expected that CBTC will become the standard installation throughout the NYC subway.]
I wonder why they don't start with CBTC in the Second Avenue subway instead -- seems to me it would be a better use of resources.
[I wonder why they don't start with CBTC in the Second Avenue subway instead -- seems to me it would be a better use of resources. ]
1. Delay of implementation of at least 20 years.
2. 2nd Ave wouldn't be as isolated as L.
3. MTA's plan is to get CBTC to all lines eventually anyway, so does it matter where they start as far as use of resources goes?
Arti
[1. Delay of implementation of at least 20 years.]
? I'm talking about building it into the line from the get-go. It doesn't take any longer to build a CBTC system than anything else, but I'd count on the possibility of a one year delay if the software end failed (e.g., Atlanta).
[2. 2nd Ave wouldn't be as isolated as L.]
That's true, but does it really matter? The CBTC cars could run on the other lines under manual control, and Second Avenue should have its own rolling stock which, I hope, will be designed to hit 80 or 90 mph.
Last time around they bought automated, high speed trains for the Second Avenue too. This time it seems to me they should build the Second Avenue with platform doors, CBTC, and unattended, air conditioned stations with full camera coverage, just like in developed countries!
[3. MTA's plan is to get CBTC to all lines eventually anyway, so does it matter where they start as far as use of resources goes?]
Economics. Why rip out the L's signal system and replace it with CBTC while building an obsolete signal system on the Second Avenue, when they could build a state-of-the-art signal system on the Second Avenue and replace the L's signals as necessary? Also, a CBTC system would have a bit more capacity -- the area served by the Second Avenue is at least as dense as that served by the Lexington Avenue, but they're only building two tracks and they're skimping on stations, meaning loading at 86th and maybe 70th Street will be slow. Unless they're planning to make the stations 20 cars long, my guess is that this line will be overloaded as soon as they extend it into the Midtown business district.
[? I'm talking about building it into the line from the get-go. ]
The 2nd Ave subway will open at least 10 more realistically 20 years from now. It probably will have CBTC if the L trial goes OK.
[Last time around they bought automated, high speed trains for the Second Avenue too. This time it seems to me they should build the Second Avenue with platform doors, CBTC, and unattended, air conditioned stations with full camera coverage, just like in developed countries! ]
It's probably too late for that, although maybe that's the reason for $1B per mile price tag :-)
[Why rip out the L's signal system and replace it with CBTC while building an obsolete signal system on the Second Avenue, ]
What makes you think that 2nd Ave will not have CBTC? I'll bet it will. Also I don't think they will rip the block signal out, rmember CBTC is an experiment, so while getting bugs out they have to have a means to fall back. That actually would mean that if 2nd Ave would be the first CBTC line in the system, conventional block signaling would have to be installed aswell and that would be a waste.
[Unless they're planning to make the stations 20 cars long, my guess is that this line will be overloaded as soon as they extend it into the Midtown business district. ]
Perhaps modern line with modern rolling stock could achieve significantly more TPH. BTW the manual Stephen Bauman referred lately stated that going from 2 to 4 tracks would only increase the capacity 50%.
Arti
Arti is correct; the Second Avenue Subway is planned to have CBTC.
As to why the Canarsie Line's signal system is being replaced at all, it's past time. According to NYCT, signal systems are supposed to be replaced after 50 years, and the Canarsie Line's dates back to the line's opening in its current form, which means 70 years at minimum.
David
Canarsie Line's dates back to the line's opening in its current form, which means 70 years at minimum.
I'd assume that the BMT thoroughly checked out the signal design west of Myrtle, when they started express service back in 1936.
I'm not nitpicking over half a dozen years. I'd be willing to bet that the opening date for any 2nd Ave service will be more than 6 years off the initial estimates. :-)
Thanks; I had forgotten to take the signal system enhancements due to the advent of the Multis into account. That happened in 1937 from Eighth Avenue to Rockaway Parkway on the Canarsie Line and from Atlantic Avenue to Lefferts Avenue on the Fulton Street El.
David
[The 2nd Ave subway will open at least 10 more realistically 20 years from now. It probably will have CBTC if the L trial goes OK.]
If it takes them that long to build it it should probably be equipped with warp drive and transporters!
[It's probably too late for that, although maybe that's the reason for $1B per mile price tag :-)]
(Sigh) That's far from worst. I've been reading up on the GCT access project and what I'm reading makes me cringe.
Seriously, I don't think platform doors and automated station access would cost anything -- they'd have a positive cash flow because of the labor they save.
[What makes you think that 2nd Ave will not have CBTC? I'll bet it will. Also I don't think they will rip the block signal out, rmember CBTC is an experiment, so while getting bugs out they have to have a means to fall back. That actually would mean that if 2nd Ave would be the first CBTC line in the system, conventional block signaling would have to be installed aswell and that would be a waste.]
I wasn't questioning that the Second Avenue will have CBTC, the general assumption seems to be that it will, but rather the decision to spend that CBTC money on the L rather than spending it on the Second Avenue. By leaving the L as is for now and using the Second Avenue as a test bed they could build the Second Avenue that much faster, and test out the new CBTC system on a line that doesn't ahve to carry passengers.
I doubt that they'd install block signals along with CBTC, though they could add visible signals controlled by the CBTC system to allow legacy trains to travel on it during the transition. I don't think CBTC is moon landing stuff at this point. Large software projects have a high failure rate, and that has to be allowed for, but that would merely delay the opening some, and better that than have delays on an existing line.
[Perhaps modern line with modern rolling stock could achieve significantly more TPH. BTW the manual Stephen Bauman referred lately stated that going from 2 to 4 tracks would only increase the capacity 50%.]
Interesting. That rings semi-true, given that people spend most of their trips on the express. I say semi, because a four track line would minimize loading problems at heavy use stations like 86th or 42nd.
Anyway, the real limitation on capacity in NYC isn't the control system, it's the MTA. I doubt that the MTA will improve its operating practices, so CBTC would help a bit.
[If it takes them that long to build it it should probably be equipped with warp drive and transporters! ]
I you look at the money planned for this 5 Year Plan, it's about 1/4th (according to Ron they upped it from .7B to 1B) of the total cost, ESA needing financig during the next 2 5 Year Plans wouldn't leave much for the 2nd Avenue Stubway project. So realistically at least 2-3 more plans 15 to 20 years.
[Seriously, I don't think platform doors and automated station access would cost anything -- they'd have a positive cash flow because of the labor they save. ]
Let's not forget that the line has to connect to BWay express tracks having none of that capabilty. As the design is planned to be finalized by 2004 we'll know soon, but I highly doubt that anything revolutionary will happen.
BTW Leningrad experience shows that with manual train control platform doors will slow down the service.
[I wasn't questioning that the Second Avenue will have CBTC, the general assumption seems to be that it will, but rather the decision to spend that CBTC money on the L rather than spending it on the Second Avenue. By leaving the L as is for now and using the Second Avenue as a test bed they could build the Second Avenue that much faster, and test out the new CBTC system on a line that doesn't ahve to carry passengers. ]
MTA has already decided to go to CBTC systemwide, also CBTC comes from a different budget. I'll bet that by the time 2nd Ave is finished there will be few more lines with modernized signals.
Arti
[I you look at the money planned for this 5 Year Plan, it's about 1/4th (according to Ron they upped it from .7B to 1B) of the total cost, ESA needing financig during the next 2 5 Year Plans wouldn't leave much for the 2nd Avenue Stubway project. So realistically at least 2-3 more plans 15 to 20 years.]
I think this will change once people realize that the promises were nothing but hot air. There was almost a riot last time around, hence the promises; come the next five year plan and no subway, I don't think people will be as gullible.
[Seriously, I don't think platform doors and automated station access would cost anything -- they'd have a positive cash flow because of the labor they save. ]
[Let's not forget that the line has to connect to BWay express tracks having none of that capabilty. As the design is planned to be finalized by 2004 we'll know soon, but I highly doubt that anything revolutionary will happen.]
Good point -- though they could go to OPTO on the original lines without CBTC.
[BTW Leningrad experience shows that with manual train control platform doors will slow down the service.]
That's interesting. Why? Are they independent of the train doors? Seems to me they should operate in concert, like an elevator (albeit independently controlled).
[That's interesting. Why? Are they independent of the train doors? Seems to me they should operate in concert, like an elevator (albeit independently controlled).
Yes they would be as in a manual elevator. There are few clients of mine operating from the buildings with manual elevators, over/undershooting is quite common. I posted a link to the Leningrad problem about a year ago, I'll try to find it again, as to my knowledge Leningrad Metro is the only place where manual TO is combined with platform doors.
Arti
[Yes they would be as in a manual elevator. There are few clients of mine operating from the buildings with manual elevators, over/undershooting is quite common.]
OK, that makes sense. I was thinking in terms of automation and AC motor control, so positioning wouldn't be a problem.
At the same time as I hear with the automated system like in Paris it works quite well (as with elevators :)
Arti
Under existing fixed-block signals, spacing betwen trains is predeterined to keep trains at a safe distance apart when they are
operating at full speed...
Does the NYCT actually use such fixed-block signals?
I just type 'em; I don't write 'em :-)
David
In point of fact NYCT does not use the type of "fixed-block" signals that were described in the document that you typed out without editorial comment.
Block lengths are of variable length, with those approaching stations becoming shorter. Also there are overlapping blocks at stations. These techniques provide many of the advantages ascribed to moving blocks in the section of the NYCT document that you typed out.
It is one thing to compare the advantages of a new system to the present one; it is a far different thing to compare the "advantages" to an inferior system that had been discarded 90 years earlier or never was.
(In point of fact NYCT does not use the type of "fixed-block" signals that were described in the document that you typed out without editorial comment.)
You are misstating the meaning of fixed block. It does not mean that every block is the same. It means that the length of the blocks (and thus the separation between trains) does not vary with the speed of the train. A train has to be far enough away from the next control signal to stop in an emergency, but the system always assumes that a train is at at dead stop two or three blocks away. CBTC will allow speeds to be adjusted based on the position and speed of the closest train.
Speaking of terminals, I'm told that one of the big contraints on certian lines (ie. the L, E) is the ability to get trains through the last switch, emptied, and turned around. The orignial MTA 2nd Avenue plan has a four track line for the last few blocks, in order to provide plenty of terminal space. To me that's an argument to run the trains through to Brooklyn and the Bronx.
If the train just runs from 125th Street to Water and Whitehall, what yard will service it?
[The orignial MTA 2nd Avenue plan has a four track line for the last few blocks, in order to provide plenty of terminal space. To me that's an argument to run the trains through to Brooklyn and the Bronx.]
That sounds to me more like a staffing thing than anything else -- if they staffed things so the T/O didn't have to walk from one end of the train to the other and the tracks extended a bit beyond the station, they could turn the train around at the speed of the line.
[If the train just runs from 125th Street to Water and Whitehall, what yard will service it?]
Interesting question. There's always that connection at 63rd Street, but that doesn't sound like it would be particularly efficient when it's time to lay trains up.
Anyway, it seems to me that even if they do run the train down Water Street they should make a connection to Nassau Street. That way the line could be on line faster, and would be immediately accessible from Brooklyn.
How's this for a scenario?
1. Stubway into N/R
2. Extension to 34th Street. This would begin to take pressure off the Lex.
3. Extension to Nassau Street line, providing Brooklyn service
4. Water Street extension, with provision for a new connection to Brooklyn if possible
5. Connection to Pelham Bay line
6. Conversion to four track operation, with the express and local split between Water Street and Nassau Street
Speaking of terminals, I'm told that one of the big contraints on certian lines (ie. the L, E) is the ability to get trains through the last switch, emptied, and turned around. The orignial MTA 2nd Avenue plan has a four track line for the last few blocks, in order to rovide plenty of terminal space. To me that's an argument to run the trains through to Brooklyn and the Bronx.
The capacity of any line is dictated by its terminals. The question is whether or not this is a limitation in practice. A two-track stub-end terminal has a capacity of 30 tph. A non-uniform scheduling pattern is required to achieve this capacity. I demonstrated how this can be accomplished in a post to Mr. Jeff H, within the last two months. The same two-track terminal with tail tracks has a capacity of 40 tph. The Flushing Line did run 36 tph during the morning rush hour a quarter century ago.
You are misstating the meaning of fixed block. It does not mean that every block is the same. It means that the length of the blocks (and thus the separation between trains) does not vary with the speed of the train.
There are no standard definitions for fixed-block signals and I did not intentionally misstate the meaning. I have been trying, without much success, to find out what will be the benefits for the TA's CBTC system. The description given appeared to compare its advantages to a fixed-block length system.
A train has to be far enough away from the next control signal to stop in an emergency, but the system always assumes that a train is at at dead stop two or three blocks away. CBTC will allow speeds to be adjusted based on the position and speed of the closest train.
I think this is an illusion and is already handled by the existing fixed-block system. Unencumbered (by a signal system) train speed at a given location is fairly well known. The speed is slowest near and in the stations. I would assume that the minimum approach distance would be on the order of 350' regardless of train speed, based on the published data for the TA's emergency brakes. The overlapping block lengths are on the order of 200' - 250' at the stations. As soon as a stopped train clears this distance, the following train can move. This is also a pathological case because if the follower left the previous station at least 90 seconds after its leader, it will never be closer than 750 feet unless the leader had problems.
It is only in this latter case - congestion due to some unusual delay that any performance benefit for CBTC might be realized. The question is which is better: hold following trains in stations or pack them behind the leader and between stations. The latter is not an attractive alternative.
If the train just runs from 125th Street to Water and Whitehall, what yard will service it?
I think a phantom yard would be adequate for a phantom line with phantom terminals running phantom rolling stock. Just when is will they start running cars to Water St? I don't see an immediate and pressing need for the 2nd Ave Subway. I think such monies can be more wisely spent to provide more improvements at much less cost. :-)
[I think such monies can be more wisely spent to provide more improvements at much less cost.]
Such as?
I'm all in favor of improving existing infrastructure before embarking on costly projects, but given the population density and traffic problems on the East Side I don't think I can think of any combination of projects that would benefit as many customers as a full length Second Avenue subway.
...the population density and traffic problems on the East Side I don't think I can think of any combination of projects that would benefit as many customers as a full length Second Avenue subway.
Your statement is true. The first question is how much improvement is necessary? The next question is what criteria should be used.
Let me suggest that the criteria should be that at least 5 sq ft. be alloted to every passenger at all times. This is equivalent to a load level of 0.8 of the NYCT's guideline load level which allots 4 sq ft. It is also sufficient space to guarantee all passengers a seat, if the cars were so designed.
The maximum load level on the Lex is 1.16 on the express between 86th and 59th and 0.90 on the local between 59th and 51st, based on 26 tph on the express and 23 tph on the local. The 0.8 goal would be met by increasing the service levels to 38 tph the Lex express and to 26 tph on the local. There is no reason why this cannot be achieved because the Moscow system already operates at greater service levels.
If NYCT managers reject such subversive solutions because of a NIH syndrome, there is another alternative. Run the local at 30 tph and keep the same service level on the express but close the express platform at 86th St. This will limit the max express load to 0.74 and keep the local load level to below 1.0. This is not as complete a solution as but provides more even facility utilization than at present.
The point is to use a reasonably fair universal criterion that is not based on political or community influence. We have concentrated on the AM morning flow. The embarassing point is that the single largest group of Lex users come from Brooklyn. Their needs are not only being totally ignored but are not even being quantified in any of the studies.
[Let me suggest that the criteria should be that at least 5 sq ft. be alloted to every passenger at all times. This is equivalent to a load level of 0.8 of the NYCT's guideline load level which allots 4 sq ft. It is also sufficient space to guarantee all passengers a seat, if the cars were so designed.
The maximum load level on the Lex is 1.16 on the express between 86th and 59th and 0.90 on the local between 59th and 51st, based on 26 tph on the express and 23 tph on the local. The 0.8 goal would be met by increasing the service levels to 38 tph the Lex express and to 26 tph on the local. There is no reason why this cannot be achieved because the Moscow system already operates at greater service levels.
If NYCT managers reject such subversive solutions because of a NIH syndrome, there is another alternative. Run the local at 30 tph and keep the same service level on the express but close the express platform at 86th St. This will limit the max express load to 0.74 and keep the local load level to below 1.0. This is not as complete a solution as but provides more even facility utilization than at present.
The point is to use a reasonably fair universal criterion that is not based on political or community influence. We have concentrated on the AM morning flow. The embarassing point is that the single largest group of Lex users come from Brooklyn. Their needs are not only being totally ignored but are not even being quantified in any of the studies.]
I agree that the capacity of the Lex could be increased without building the Second Avenue subway. But while I think 5 sq. feet is an excellent criterion, and very much like the idea of a universally applicable metric, it seems to me that passenger space tells only part of the picture because it doesn't measure access to the train or commute time. The Lex is too far west to be accessible to all areas by foot, and traffic in much of its coverage area is too slow to make buses a viable alternative, so I think an objective metric would have to include walking distance to and from the train and efficiency of commute time (commute time/distance). Then it seems to me you would want to calculate the cost per passenger of achieving the new metric in a given location via the most efficient means and subtract the predicted economic benefit of the new service (e.g., the upzoning that Larry mentioned), and assign the money to the areas where it would be achieved most efficiently, with the proviso that if the formula were departed from it would have to be on the basis of special contributions from local taxes or local farebox revenue. And I suppose you would have to have some way of prioritizing particularly serious needs, e.g., it might make more sense to spend $10/passenger to achieve the desired service levels on a moderately overcrowded line, but $20/passenger to improve service on an extremely crowded one.
Such a metric could I think go a long way towards rationalizing the process, if it were done right (I keep thinking of things that should be added to the formula). So I guess until I have a better metric this is still an open question.
BTW, Brooklyn riders may be the largest group, but do they suffer most from crowding and lack of coverage? I thought overcrowding was at its worst coming down from the Bronx and Upper Manhattan.
[The Lex is too far west to be accessible to all areas by foot, and traffic in much of its coverage area is too slow to make buses a viable alternative, ]
Dedicated bus lanes with short runs, with the only objective to be a feeder line could be a very viable alternative (fare control and loading drastically improved or abolished)
The feeder line service pattern has had a great success in Queens, with a side effect of overcrowding the 7 and QB expresses. On UES that wouldn't be an issue, as they already have no other options.
Arti
[Dedicated bus lanes with short runs, with the only objective to be a feeder line could be a very viable alternative (fare control and loading drastically improved or abolished)
The feeder line service pattern has had a great success in Queens, with a side effect of overcrowding the 7 and QB expresses. On UES that wouldn't be an issue, as they already have no other options.]
Question is, would it work? The traffic is much heavier on the East Side than it is in most areas. Also, the buses would have to carry many more people.
As things now stand, you can walk as fast as a bus in many areas, and that's without considering latency.
I suspect that feeder buses would work better in places like the far West Side and alphabet city, maybe even in the LMBD, though one walk down Water Street disabused me of most of my light rail fantasies . . .
[Question is, would it work? The traffic is much heavier on the East Side than it is in most areas. Also, the buses would have to carry many more people.
As things now stand, you can walk as fast as a bus in many areas, and that's without considering latency. ]
On an avenue the buses move ok, especially with dual bus lanes. Abolish the DOT practice for a stop at every 2 - 3 blocks (I'd say 5 is good enough,) Crosstown stops only when connecting with subways. Enforce traffic rules and ban turns on x-town streets during rush hours.
[I suspect that feeder buses would work better in places like the far West Side and alphabet city]
For buses to work in the Alphabet City they need to make the avenues one way.
Arti
[On an avenue the buses move ok, especially with dual bus lanes. Abolish the DOT practice for a stop at every 2 - 3 blocks (I'd say 5 is good enough,) Crosstown stops only when connecting with subways. Enforce traffic rules and ban turns on x-town streets during rush hours.]
They work OK on some avenues, but not others, e.g., Madison is great but Fifth doesn't move at all. Also, I'm certainly in favor of abolishing those frequent stops, but I don't know that you could get away with it, since one of the main purposes of the bus routes is to carry the elderly.
[but I don't know that you could get away with it, since one of the main purposes of the bus routes is to carry the elderly. ]
You would still have the paratransit like regular routes.
If at all possible I would cut ADA aswell, although I don't thinhk it's a problem during rush hours as the street congetion discourages wheelchairs enough. Those lines would be rapid shuttles to compensate the lack of rapid transit access.
Arti
[If at all possible I would cut ADA aswell, although I don't thinhk it's a problem during rush hours as the street congetion discourages wheelchairs enough. Those lines would be rapid shuttles to compensate the lack of rapid transit access.]
I don't think it is. ADA is a real problem--wheelchair services should be provided by paratransit.
I agree.
Arti
The Lex is too far west to be accessible to all areas by foot...
I had covered this in a post within the last month. There should be standards for access as well; Paris set up the standard that all residents within the 20 arrondisments should be within a kilometer of a station entrance.
I proposed that the same standard be used as that for providing free bus service for third grade students. If a third grader is within 3/4 mile of his/her elementary school, then he/she walks.
I noted that applying this standard meant that everybody on the Upper East Side was withing walking distance of a subway entrance. An alert reader properly pointed out that I was incorrect. The residents of Gracie Mansion (East End Ave & 90th St) were the sole residents beyond the 3/4 mile threshold. Another poster objected on the grounds that the many Upper East Side residents were less capable at navigating their neighborhood on foot than the average third grader.
[I had covered this in a post within the last month. There should be standards for access as well; Paris set up the standard that all residents within the 20 arrondisments should be within a kilometer of a station entrance. ]
That's pretty much a standard in recent European rapid transit systems, with the exeption that they are not supposed to walk there, but bussed, etc. The question is not the matter of physical ability (I don't mind) but the time, fast walk is about 5 km/h normal about 7-8...
Now let's take the original NYC lines, the stations are spaced trainlengths away, IMHO lest's start closing stations, as this arrangement slows down the traffic, escalates the cost to operate the system and can be compensated by running bus service.
Arti
Arti
Station spacing should be based on a formula that takes into account distance, local population density and the use of a station by non-area residents, either for stops in business areas in midtown and lower Manhattan or as a transfer point for connecting bus lines in upper Manhattan and the other three boroughs.
Tight spacing of the Wall and Fulton stations on the 4/5 isn't a problem because there are enough people to use both stations. Having stations at 28th Street on the 6, N/R and 1/9 is a little more questionable, and as has been posted on the board many times before, having the Beverly Road and Cortelyou Road stations on the Brighton line within spitting distance of each other was just a matter of early 1900s politics that doesn't make sense today.
[Having stations at 28th Street on the 6, N/R and 1/9 i]
On 6 I have been convinced by Hank it's neccessary (like CBD or Wall St area) N/R 1/9, don't think so.
[having the Beverly Road and Cortelyou Road stations on the Brighton line within spitting distance of each other was just a matter of early 1900s politics that doesn't make sense today. ]
So why not to abandon them?
If fto think about it sparsely spaced systems operate usually at much higher frequencies than TA. I guess different design philosophy. Here it was steam railroads emerging into rapid transit, over there it was streetcars and omnibuses not meeting the demand augmented by rapid transit.
Arti
Abandoning one would require hearings, NIMBY battles from people close to the designated station, etc. Plus, as a station built into the Brighton line's open cut, it would be harder to ignore than, say turning off the lights at Worth, 18th or 91st Sts. on the IRT or dismantling Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle. That doesn't mean the MTA couldn't abandon it, just that the scars of what it did would be there for everyone to see every day between sunrise and sunset.
LIRR has been very successful in abandoning stations, scars still there, noone complained.
Arti
Commuter rail and subways are a little different. Most of the abandoned LIRR stations lie within the city, and their usefulness to local riders going to or from work or into Manhattan was less, in part because you had to pay LIRR fees. And the passenger usage going out towards LI was not enough to justify keeping those stations open.
Abandoning a subway station would produce more community grumbling because it would directly affect a larger number of people. That doesn't mean it's not justified, but any closer of an LIRR station will affect X number of riders -- close a subway stop and the number of people affected would likely be five, 10 or 15 times that amount.
[That's pretty much a standard in recent European rapid transit systems, with the exeption that they are not supposed to walk there, but bussed, etc.]
And traffic on much of the East Side is too heavy to make buses feasible. There are other areas in which that isn't true, both in and outside Manhattan, and in those places it seems to me that improved bus service should receive more consideration, with the subways providing high speed travel over longer distances.
[And traffic on much of the East Side is too heavy to make buses feasible. ]
IMO if the routes were short enough (from on subway station to another via 1st Ave) they could perform quite reliably.
Arti
[IMO if the routes were short enough (from on subway station to another via 1st Ave) they could perform quite reliably.]
I thought you were talking about East-West buses, to get to and from the Lex? Or were you thinking of a bus that cuts over? You can already take the bus on first and second avenue, but it doesn't do much good -- first is reasonably clear but by the time you're at Second the gridlock is impossible. And once you're going East-West, things become impossible, with a few exceptions (e.g., 43rd Street, which is blocked by Grand Central).
Idea is a shuttle between 2 adjacent Lex starions via 2nd nad 1st Avenues. Dual bus lanes on the avenue, no stops x-town but at the station.
[And once you're going East-West, things become impossible]
The only really impossible route I've encountered is 49th/50th Street so called transitway, I've walked past the bus I missed.
Reasons, total disregard of traffic regulations, could be enforced suring rush hour, or better yet raise the fines and make it a profit center for the city :-) Ridiculously close spaced stops don't help either, and abolish fare control. Rush hour lex with 10 MPH speeds and 3 minute dwelling times is not much of a competitor either.
Arti
[Reasons, total disregard of traffic regulations, could be enforced suring rush hour.]
Problem is, they don't seem to want to enforce the regs--seems to me it would be cheaper to pay for traffic control officers at difficult intersections than to build a $13 billion subway! Though I'm not even sure if they can. Once traffic reaches a certain density, you're going to get stuck sometimes in an intersection whatever you do. Also, unrealistic regulations that ban taxi pickups or truck loading just aren't going to work -- people will risk a ticket because they have no choice.
[Also, unrealistic regulations that ban taxi pickups or truck loading just aren't going to work -- people will risk a ticket because they have no choice. ]
Double parking, parking in bus stops are things that are the worst in creating problems. Deliveries can be sceduled, so that double parking is not necessary. If truckers get hit by a fine on a regular basis, they'll find some alternatives.
Arti
[Double parking, parking in bus stops are things that are the worst in creating problems. Deliveries can be sceduled, so that double parking is not necessary. If truckers get hit by a fine on a regular basis, they'll find some alternatives.]
I'd come down really hard on that sort of thing. The rule would be no parking, no standing by the curb except for active deliveries or loading passengers, no standing in bus stops, no turning. And then the bus lane would be one lane out to allow those legitimate activities, and heaven help a cab or car that used the bus lane for anything but going to or from the curb.
[I proposed that the same standard be used as that for providing free bus service for third grade students. If a third grader is within 3/4 mile of his/her elementary school, then he/she walks.]
I've always thought that the distance standards for schoolkids were mean-spirited attempts by adults to make them walk farther than the adults would themselves! I don't think this should be about endurance or virtue, but about service to the customer, making the metropolitan area a competitive place to live and work, and enticing people from cars and cabs. New Yorkers put up with a lot of stuff that nobody else would tolerate, like conditions on the Lexington Avenue. The fact that people are screaming for this says I think a lot about its importance.
I've always thought that the distance standards for schoolkids were mean-spirited attempts by adults to make them walk farther than the adults would themselves!
I suggest that you come up with a better better numeric standard that could be universally applied to both adults and nine year olds.
[I suggest that you come up with a better better numeric standard that could be universally applied to both adults and nine year olds.]
Since this is a highly subjective matter I think you would need to commission a satisfaction survey. This former schoolkid, though, thought the distance requirements were ridiculous, though he didn't live close enough to school to be affected by them, and recognizes that he's a sample of one.
This is one of the reasons I like a market approach. One can always devise metrics, but the weighting coefficients tend to be arbitrary. There's no better way to find out what suits people than by having them pay the actual cost: planning becomes a lot easier when it's a matter of supply and demand. I still can't say for sure whether it would be better to spend $13 billion on the 2nd Avenue Subway or apply it to other needs, but I do think that one could operate the Second Avenue subway as a successful business, and that counts for much in my (unfortunately intuitive) estimation.
1) You are assuming that people are not making sub-optimal choices (both for them and for society) based on Lex crowding, ie. buses, taxis, change of schedule, walking way over from 6th or 9th Avenue to avoid the crush. I think that at the very least a 2nd Ave subway will pull riders off the jammed, slow, E side buses.
2) Don't forget about all that development capacity N of 96th St and on the Lower East Side.
3) Speed is an issue. The East Side is the more direct route to Downtown for most of the Bronx and Queens, and Midtown for Brooklyn, all of which are primarily E. of Manhattan. I agree that the needs of Brooklyn and the Bronx are being ignored. I'd like to see the 2nd Avenue tied in on both ends, and run through the Nassau Loop for an easy connection with the A/C.
4) We've got 16 tracks north-south tracks between 6th and 8th Avenues in Midtown Manhattan. If you think four are enough for the entire E side, perhaps 8 are enough for the West Side? Think again. I'd say we could ditch 4 tracks -- turn the BMT Broadway line over to the suburbs for a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan -- but only if you four track the Second Avenue.
[Think again. I'd say we could ditch 4 tracks -- turn the BMT Broadway line over to the suburbs for a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan -- but only if you four track the Second Avenue.]
Hear, hear! So get this -- I was reading the ESA alternatives the other day, and they examined the 6th Avenue as a route for the 63rd Street tunnel. And they rejected it out of hand. Why? Because 63rd Street was a few blocks farther from the center of the Midtown business district than 42nd. Never mind that it would save maybe $3 billion. never mind that you could use the line to run Airtrain between JFK and LgA. And never mind that it would provide Lower Manhattan LIRR Access without spending another $1 or 2 billion. That's a separate study group, after all, and their goals weren't included in the evaluation criteria.
We've got 16 tracks north-south tracks between 6th and 8th Avenues in Midtown Manhattan.
How square feet per hour of car floor area are currently running. That is what carries people, not tracks. You can aggregate floor space into cars and trains but tracks alone are not the only answer.
The two-track stubway will permit an additional 15 tph from the Upper East Side. Of course they used to run an additional 15 tph on the Lex than they currently do back in 1954. So the best that the stubway will achieve after a $3-13 billion outlay and 20+ years of waiting will be a return to past performance levels and two more tracks.
Don't forget about all that development capacity N of 96th St and on the Lower East Side.
The development capacity will be to displace what few residences remain on the East Side with office buildings. The residents will not be around long enough to enjoy the new line. I'm sure Metropolitan Life will be very happy put Stuyvesant Town on the block for turning the site into an office complex.
[The development capacity will be to displace what few residences remain on the East Side with office buildings. The residents will not be around long enough to enjoy the new line. I'm sure Metropolitan Life will be very happy put Stuyvesant Town on the block for turning the site into an office complex.]
If it means jobs, I'm all for it. There are plenty of places to build housing, inside and outside the City, and people will find it when it's built. But the best way to insure that people have good housing is to insure that they have jobs!
There's plenty of places outside Manhattan (with good transit access) to build offce space, reverse commute would definitely make mass transit more profitable.
Arti
Second Avenue Express (NORTHBOND)
P - SouthFerry (M) or 125th Street (M). Stops: South Ferry (Water Street) (Transf. 1/9 and N/R Lines), Wall Street (Water Street), South Street SeaPort (Water Street), Chatman Square (China Town), Grand Street (Second Avenue) (Transf. B/D), 14th Street (Second Avenue) (Transfer L Line), 42nd St. United Nation (Second Avenue) (Transf. #7 Line), and Lexington/Park Avs. 125th Street (Transf. #4, 5, 6, and Q Lines).
N Broadway Line
I'd rather see it enter the Nassau Street line. Some of those A riders who board the 4/5 at Broadway Nassau could board the 2nd Avenue instead, and trains could run through to Brooklyn.
Two-thirds of the Broadway Brooklyn trains could run up 6th Avenue via the unused portion of Chrystie to make room, perhaps becoming the V. Better for everyone.
I prefer both routes because the "WATER STREET LINE" can make connections with the 1/9 and N/R at SOUTH Ferry. 1/9 (7th Avenue) riders will benefit the most because transfering is the most difficult. Notice the long transfer with the L at 14th Street and Chambers (Park Place), Fulton Street long connection on the 2/3 lines. Make them less popular for making connections.
N Bwy
[I prefer both routes because the "WATER STREET LINE" can make connections with the 1/9 and N/R at SOUTH Ferry. 1/9 (7th Avenue) riders will benefit the most because transfering is the most difficult. Notice the long transfer with the L at 14th Street and Chambers (Park Place), Fulton Street long connection on the 2/3 lines. Make them less popular for making connections.]
It would help if they restored shuttle service from the 1/9 to the 4 and 6, and put a moving walkway in that 14th Street passage (as well as in anything else that's a block long). Also, there should be a transfer to the A at Chambers.
The shuttle didn't serve much purpose.
Why are people so lazy they can't walk from Bowling Green to the ferry?
So I guess everyone is saying a Water Street connection between the N/R and 1/9 lines isn't a good idea? This will benefit 1/9 rides more than N/R riders because I find it hard to transfer from the 1/9 line to the other lines. Although the slowest, The N/R is probably the best line when connecting to other lines. In other words, It provides the most flexibility for passengers using the system to it's fullest potential.
N Bwy
[So I guess everyone is saying a Water Street connection between the N/R and 1/9 lines isn't a good idea?]
Not me -- I think something along those lines is a natural if they build Water Street. But it would have to come down State Street, so it wouldn't actually hit the 1/9 station. What you could do is have a station connecting to Whitehall at one end and hitting the curved part of State Street at the other, with a passage to the 1/9 and the ferry terminal. Another possibility would be to have the station up a bit near broad street, with a turn into the Brooklyn tunnel or a provision for an eventual connection to a new tunnel. Assuming of course that's feasible what with all the obstructions and grade considerations.
Supposedly, when they build the new SI Ferry terminal at South Ferry, it will have underground tunnels connecting both to the N/R and 1/9 stations. There isn't supposed to be a free transfer point there, but repositioning the fare control area so there's a free passage along the back (north) wall of the station would make that easy. Then any Water Street line could end before Whitehall and connect up with the N/R station and provide a direct transfer to both lines.
[Supposedly, when they build the new SI Ferry terminal at South Ferry, it will have underground tunnels connecting both to the N/R and 1/9 stations. There isn't supposed to be a free transfer point there, but repositioning the fare control area so there's a free passage along the back (north) wall of the station would make that easy. Then any Water Street line could end before Whitehall and connect up with the N/R station and provide a direct transfer to both lines.]
Did you know that there's some kind of megastation complex under the Customs House? I've never been able to find out what it was intended for.
I've only heard this from you.
Why would there be such a thing. The Customs House predates the subway.
[I've only heard this from you.
Why would there be such a thing. The Customs House predates the subway.]
I assume it was build long after the Customs House itself.
I found out about it by reading the placards at the Customs House. IIRC they converted the station into a movie theater.
Why would they dig under an existing, landmarked building? Where are these placards that describe this mythical "station?"
[Why would they dig under an existing, landmarked building? Where are these placards that describe this mythical "station?"]
Beats me -- I didn't build the thing.
The placards are in the lobby on the ground floor of the Customs House.
[The shuttle didn't serve much purpose.
Why are people so lazy they can't walk from Bowling Green to the ferry?]
I don't think it's a matter of laziness so much as it is of a cumulative effect on commuting. It's a straw that broke the
camel's back thing . . . people have to make a lot of connections and changes on their way to work, and each adds to travel time.
Don't you think that transfering to the shuttle would be slower than the walk?
Arti
[Don't you think that transfering to the shuttle would be slower than the walk?]
I don't know, I was wondering about that myself . . .
I think the shuttle was put in as some sort of compromise, since the Lex needed to turn trains before Brooklyn, the Seventh Ave. 1/9 platform and tracks couldn't handle the load by itself and the inner loop at SF is too short to handle a full length train and too curved to allow anything but the center doors to operated (which would have made using the original IRT car design there really a challenge).
Plus the winter weather at the Battery -- with wind, cold rain, sleet and/or sonw blowing in off the harbor -- can make the three-block walk from the Ferry terminal to Bowing Green even less fun than a three block walk in other parts of the city, making people more likely to take a train one stop and then transfer.
[I think the shuttle was put in as some sort of compromise, since the Lex needed to turn trains before Brooklyn, the Seventh Ave. 1/9 platform and tracks couldn't handle the load by itself and the inner loop at SF is too short to handle a full length train and too curved to allow anything but the center doors to operated (which would have made using the original IRT car design there really a challenge).]
I think the problem (besides the length, which isn't insurmountable) was that the inner loop worked only with the two car trains -- it's the new ones that are a problem.
OK, what I wonder is why they don't get rid of the pesky loops and just have two four track stations sitting side by side, one for the Lex and one for the Seventh Avenue, with both of them feeding into the Joralemon Street tunnel? That way both lines could go to Brooklyn and everyone could transfer between them easily. Then the stations to Whitehall, to a station at the JMZ layup tracks (if possible), and to the Ferry terminal, and run the Water Street line across it for a regular transfer complex. Reconvert the mystery station in the basement of the Customs House, and turn the Customs House into a spectacular Bowling Green subway/ferry/Airtrain/LIRR/NJT station, with the loading docks on Bridge Street converted for taxi access. (The Museum of the American Indian would stay where it is, but with much higher traffic.)
I think the problem (besides the length, which isn't insurmountable) was that the inner loop worked only with the two car trains
No. The Inner Loop track could take a FULL TEN CAR TRAIN the extra platform at Bowling Green couldn't take anything longer than 3 cars.
Actually, the inner loop can only handle eight cars... but as you noted, the limiting factor is Bowling Green.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I think the problem (besides the length, which isn't insurmountable) was that the inner loop worked only with the two car trains
No. The Inner Loop track could take a FULL TEN CAR TRAIN the extra platform at Bowling Green couldn't take anything longer than 3 cars.]
Sorry, typo. I meant to say "two door trains." I assume the inner loop station is sized for the same 5 car trains the outer loop is, but the center door would have too much of a gap and is blocked off by the original architecture, which had arches for the end doors (I'm not sure the arches would line up with the modern end doors either).
You've got in wrong. First, it supports eight cars, I thought it was ten. And it's only the center doors that can open. But then again, they can cut the wall away and install gap fillers.
[And it's only the center doors that can open.]
You're right, it would have to be, since the center door would be the one without the gap.
But then again, they can cut the wall away and install gap fillers.
No, they can't - the wall in this case is a significant structural element that cannot be compromised further. Much as I'd love to see that platform in use again, it isn't going to happen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[No, they can't - the wall in this case is a significant structural element that cannot be compromised further. Much as I'd love to see that platform in use again, it isn't going to happen.]
Couldn't they replace it piece by piece with a new structure?
They'd have to completely close the station - both platforms and tracks - and erect a significant temporary structure so they could remove even a piece of that wall. It carries the main load for the entire street above. With Bowling Green in close proximity anyway and the current plans for a passage to connect both BG and SF to the new Ferry terminal there isn't any justification for it. Now if they could come up with a way of opening just eight cars at their middle doors then maybe the 5 train could loop there with pax, but again I doubt the justification is there. Really, once the el was gone, there wasn't any reason for that platform... they just kept it on life support for another forty years because they were afraid of the reaction from the dozen or so people who used it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Haven't they learned anything from the last century-and-a-half about building structures? Or hell, even from the ancient Greeks. I'd think that the steel columns in the wall bear the actual load, not the wall, and that the concrete can be removed leaving bare columns.
If that isn't how it was built, then why the hell not?
There aren't any steel columns in that wall - it's brickwork faced in concrete. The arches are actual support arches.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Having the 1/9 on a straight track into feeding the Joralemon tunnelo would be redundant, since the 2/3 has its own tunnel and the IRT was designed with the idea the only the expresses went to Brooklyn. A better use, if you wanted to eliminate the loop, would be a straight track for the 1/9 feeding into a new tunnel which would run beneath the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel to Governor's Island, if and when the city ever figures out what they're going to do with it.
The problem with the SF inner loop is that its always been designed to handle the 4/5 lines and the Lex express trains were longer than the Seventh Ave. locals when the system began. That meeans that while the trains could use it (with only the pneumatic center doors in operation) they'd have the same not-long-enough-platform problem the 1/9 has to cope with today, only that instead of having 15 doors open for 10 cars like on the outer loop, you only had five doors open for a 10-car train on the inner one.
[Having the 1/9 on a straight track into feeding the Joralemon tunnelo would be redundant, since the 2/3 has its own tunnel and the IRT was designed with the idea the only the expresses went to Brooklyn. A better use, if you wanted to eliminate the loop, would be a straight track for the 1/9 feeding into a new tunnel which would run beneath the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel to Governor's Island, if and when the city ever figures out what they're going to do with it.]
I was thinking in terms of practical access for travellers from Broolyn to the west side of Lower Manhattan, but you're probably right that the current arrangement is more efficacious. An easy transfer between the 4,5 and the 1 that didn't require a crosstown trip on the 2,3 and a trip back down on the 1 would be useful, though. And a new station would end the short platform confusion at South Ferry.
[The problem with the SF inner loop is that its always been designed to handle the 4/5 lines and the Lex express trains were longer than the Seventh Ave. locals when the system began. That meeans that while the trains could use it (with only the pneumatic center doors in operation) they'd have the same not-long-enough-platform problem the 1/9 has to cope with today, only that instead of having 15 doors open for 10 cars like on the outer loop, you only had five doors open for a 10-car train on the inner one.]
OK, that explains why the inner platform is longer. I had assumed it was the same length as the outer one.
Your express makes tons of little piddly stops below Grand Street and then proceeds to bypass the most sorely needed part of the line, in upper Midtown and on the Upper East Side. For once, the crowds will be on the local.
Second Avenue Local (NORTHBOND)
T - SouthFerry (M) or 125th Street (M). Stops: South Ferry (Water Street) (Transf. 1/9 and N/R Lines), Wall Street (Water Street), South Street SeaPort (Water Street), Chatman Square (China Town), Grand Street (Second Avenue) (Transf. B/D), Houston Street (Second Avenue) (Transf. F/V), St. Marks Place (Second Avenue), 14th Street (Second Avenue) (Transfer L Line), 23rd St. Stuyvesant Town (Second Avenue), 34th Street New York Univ. (Second Avenue), 42nd St. United Nation (Second Avenue) (Transf. #7 Line), 50th Street (Second Avenue), 57th Street (Second Avenue), 65th Street (Second Avenue) (Trans. made with Q "Broadway Express", 72nd Street (Second Avenue), 79th Street (Second Avenue), 88 Street (Second Avenue), 99th Street Metropolitan Hospital (Second Avenue), 106th Street (Second Avenue), 116th Street (Second Avenue), and Lexington/Park Avs. 125th Street (Transf. #4, 5, 6, and Q Lines).
N Broadway Line
[23rd St. Stuyvesant Town (Second Avenue),]
No! It would be 23rd Street, Rosehill. Sty Town is not even close!
Arti
Broadway Exoress (SOUTHBOND)
Q - Lexington/Park Avs. 125th Street (Transf. #4, 5, 6, and P/T/U METRO NORTH Lines), 116th Street (Second Avenue), 106th Street (Second Avenue), 99th Street Metropolitan Hospital (Second Avenue), 88 Street (Second Avenue), 79th Street (Second Avenue), 72nd Street (Second Avenue), 65th Street (Second Avenue) (Trans. made with P/T/U "Second Avenue Lines (P/T/U)", Lexington Avenue (63rd Street) (Cross platform Transf. F), 57th Street (Broadway) (Transf. N/R), 42nd Street (Broadway) (Transf. 1,2,3,7,9/N,R/S/A,C,E), 34th Street (Broadway) (Transf. B/D/F/V/Z?/N,R), 14th Street (Broadway) (Transf. 4,5,6,N,R), Canal Street (Broadway) (Transf. 6,J,M,N,R,U) -----> To Brooklyn via Bridge w/ N Express train.
N Broadway Line
Second Avenue Local(SOUTHBOND)
U - Lexington/Park Avs. 125th Street (Transf. #4, 5, 6, and P/T/U METRO NORTH Lines), 116th Street (Second Avenue), 106th Street (Second Avenue), 99th Street Metropolitan Hospital (Second Avenue), 88 Street (Second Avenue), 79th Street (Second Avenue), 72nd Street (Second Avenue), 65th Street (Second Avenue) (Transf. Q "Broadway Express), 57th Street (Second Avenue), 50th Street (Second Avenue), 42nd St. United Nations (Transf. #7 Flushing Line), 34th St. New York Univ. (Second Avenue) (Transf. LIRR), 23rd St. Stuyvesant Town (Second Avenue), 14th Street (Second Avenue) (Transf. L Canarsie Line), St. Marks Place (Second Avenue), Houston Street (Second Avenue) (Transf. F/V Sixth Avenue Culver Lines), Bowery (Delancy Street) (Transf. J/M Nassau St. Lines), Canal Street (Centre Street) (Transf. J,M,N,Q,R,N,6), Chambers Street (Centre Street) (transf. 4,5,6,J,M), some trains to Brooklyn. Who know's where???
N Broadway Line
>> St. Marks Place (Second Avenue)
Whoah.
THESE ARE THE DETAILS ON THE NEW SEPTA FARE INCREASE STRAIGHT FROM THE WIRES.....this is one of the benefits of working in a newsroom....
SEPTA Fare Increase
SEPTA says it plans to raise fares systemwide, possibly in July.
The transit agency's plan is a 30-cent increase in the base fare, to $1.90; a 15-cent increase in the cost of a token to $1.15; a 20-cent increase in transfers, to 60 cents; a $1.50 increase in weekly Transpasses, to $18.75; a $6 increase in monthly Transpasses, to $70, and a 12.7 percent increase in regional rail tickets and Trailpasses. SEPTA also plans to expand the use of Transpasses to more lines.
SEPTA GM Jack Leary says the agency wants people to turn more to the weekly and monthly passes, to save money and to change the way they travel along with SEPTA's changes in the way it operates.
There'll be five public hearings on the fare plan, one in each of the Southeastern Pennsylvania counties where SEPTA operates, followed by a non-binding recommendation from a hearing examiner.
The SEPTA board is expected to vote in June and the fare hikes would likely take effect sometime in July.
I thought the token price was already $1.15?
Chuck Greene
It is - they must mean raising it to $1.30.
And how can they say they want people to start using passes when it will still be drastically more expensive than tokens?? Let's see - $52 for a month's worth of $1.30 tokens vs. a $70 monthly pass - which would you buy?
That's always been the case. Currently, at $1.15 per token and $64 per month, one would need to make 56 trips per month, which is 14 per week: more than one would use to get to and from work 5 days a week. With weekly passes at (Never Mind: It appears SEPTA has just updated its fares webpage, and no longer makes any mention of weekly passes. Have they been eliminated?) Wait, I found it in the fares section, although it is no longer available from the "SEPTA Store" page.
With weekly passes at $17.25, one would need to make 15 trips per week, again more than one would use to get to and from work 5 days a week. One would think if SEPTA wants to encourage use of passes over that of tokens, they would make it a better value to commuters. Although I live in the city and don't drive, it is still cheaper for me to use tokens and the occasional cab (and lots of walking; I'm young and it's good for me) rather than buy a monthly pass.
I would get the transpass. You can't use tokens on The Regional Rail on the weekends.
I thought you couldn't use tokens at all on Regional Rail. Also, I've
often wondered why tokens are not honored on Regional Rail trains.
Why can't Regional Rail use the same fare structure as buses, subways
and trolleys, by eliminating the use of tickets, and installing
fareboxes in each end of the train, and having a conductor stand at
each farebox as people board? After all, Regional Rail is still
"SEPTA", and therefore should honor SEPTA tokens!
You don't expect SEPTA to be logical, do you?
Yes but SEPTA is not the only one that doesn't accept tokens on its commuter trains. When was the last time you could use an NYC subway token on the LIRR or Metro-North? Or a T token on MBTA commuter rail?
Now why can't SEPTA make the "token fare" (currently $1.15, soon to be $1.30) the base fare. What's the point in having a base fare and a token fare. It should be made that you pay $1.15 ($1.30 when the new fares take effct) and the clerk gives you a token to deposit in the turnstile. That's the way it's done in Boston and NYC in pre-MetroCard days.
Tokens can only be bought in quantities of 2 or more. It's a bulk buying discount. The cash surcharge is a penalty for not thinking ahead and for making the driver's or station agent's job harder.
Making their jobs harder? Machines accept cash fares or tokens on a bus; the driver has nothing to do with either, except giving transfers. Station cashiers, ironically, are not allowed to handle money (how f*cked up is that?) so it hardly makes their jobs more difficult. Why can't you buy 1 token from a machine? The idea of 2 separate fares forces people to go out of their way, or pay the higher fare. It is an annoyance to riders, while adding no benefit to SEPTA worker productivity.
Where are station cashiers not allowed to handle money? I mean, the subway stations I go to handle money, I think, at least at 69th Street, and all of the regional rail stations do. I'm not totally sure about 69th Street though, even though I certainly paid in cash.
In subway stations. You have to put your money into slots that drop into containers. The "cashiers" cant touch the money, nor give change. Their sole job function is to give out transfers and nap.
I've seen more than one person stranded in a SEPTA subway station because they couldnt afford more than one token and the cashiers wont give you just one. This even happened to me once. Even if they look you straight in the eye while you put your money in the machine, they won't refund you if you get nothing out of the machine.
I'd like to know how cities like NYC, Chicago and Boston can afford everything from new lines, transit studies and new vehicles without raising fares while SEPTA, who rarely if ever does anything to actually improve their system, much less expand it, can overcharge people who can barely afford the current fares for generally poor service, generally lousy, surly personnel and "who knows when?" frequency in service.
I think everything in this city is horribly mismanaged. We have the world's lousiest transit service, a gas company run by people with no business sense to speak of and a school district that doesn't know how to spend money.
Once I graduate in June, even if I have to carpetbag somewhere, I'm getting the heck out of Philly.
I agree 100%. I've put in my time here for a few years, trying to be an optimist, because Philly has so much potential. I'm getting out too.
Is Philadelphia really that bad? I mean, if you really want to see buraucratic incompetance, take the R7 and NJT's NE Corridor 90 miles up to NYC? Don't count NJT, however because it's an NJ agency and NJ is a state that cares far more about mass transit than the Vampire State of NY ever will (witness the defeat of last fall's proposed NY State Transportation Bill).
It's true that in NYC we are seeing new subway cars and the Bronx IRT lines are finally getting modern signals and station lighting. But the fare went up from $1.25 to $1.50 in 1996 before any of it happened. And there are still many problems, such as scratchitti on the windows, garbage on the floors, overcrowdedness that is only getting worse, delays (both human- and mechanical-related) and subway cars and busses without working heat or A/C.
Other than the fare structure and labor relations, what else is seriously wrong with transit in Philly? There are transit studies going on in Philly. There's one going on for rapid transit service NE Philly right now. Also, SEPTA is currently diverting Route 15 busses to do work for upcoming the Girard Avenue Light Rail service.
I agree SEPTA has a long way to go in making it easier to ride its busses, trolleys and subways. The way the fares are set up and the way they are collected is inexcusable. It's one thing for bus operators to not be allowed to make change, but there's no reason in the world why subway booth clerks can't make change or why you can only buy tokens in packs of two, five (why five and not six? How are you supposed to get home?) and ten. And the surly attiudes of too many SEPTA employees are going to turn more people off to transit. But at least the subway, trolley and el cars tend to be cleaner overall than NYC counterparts.
Is everything really horrible mismanaged in Philly? How bad can the school system in Philly be? Whatever you do, don't look to NYC as a better example. The NYC Board of Education is the poster child of mismanagement. Philly's school system can't be worse than NYC's. And had it not been for the 1996 fare increase, NYC wouldn't have had its successful MetroCard fare collection, new subway cars and new signalling.
As for Chicago and Boston, they may be better examples. But not NYC.
Well, the Girard Avenue line was suppose to have service the fall of last year, I heard this from SEPTA themselves somewhere. I think it was on the site. SEPTA has decent buses, I guess, but they aren't great. I mean, I love Neoplans and all, but aren't the front doors suppose to seal with the bus, rather than close almost all the way? Plus, the windows of a lot of Neoplans are really hard to see through, and should be replaced but aren't. I love the metro, although there were a lot of issues with contracting and such. Plus, if there is a major threat of a strike every three years, I think there is a problem. Not to mention considering 6 and a half years without raising fares amazing. Otherwise, SEPTA is a good company, and they certainly try out a lot of things. I just have to wonder. what happened to all of those Ticket Vending Machines they used to have? They were great and were very convenient.
Live here for a few years. The largest population decrease of any city in the country in the last decade. Entire vacated buildings downtown, and deserted streets downtown after dark.
Sometimes, I find Philly to be the most depressing place in the world not for what it isn't but what it could and should be. There's no reason for this city to be a pitstop for people traveling between those other two cities to the north and south. There's no reason for this city to maintain a wage tax so oppressive as to drive out businesses that are already leaving the area for spacier, sunnier pastures or simply 20 minutes down the Schuylkill Expwy.
I believe what's really holding this city back from exploding as a major destination, a place people, for whatever reason, despite it's problems, seem to be moving to in droves such as New York City (which despite it's problems has continually grown in population, passing 8,000,000 counted residents)is our Puritanical mentality, which is odd. This city is run by supposedly modern minds yet it takes great concentration of will, to say nothing of money which is in a manner of speaking secondary, to get anything moving. This city seems to lag behind the rest of the world in everything. A busy downtown, both day and night, a waterfront which atually has attractions that attract and a simply a more positive morale are things which, though we seem to have just started down this road, other more often smaller cities have been doing for years.
I just think it's sad to see the waste of potential, which I think Philly has more of than any other city in the entire country. All it needs are a few fresh thinkers to kick some key people in the butt and get things happening.
Sorry about the rant, but I really feel strongly about this sort of thing.
Hmm, I always liked Penns Landing, since there was always a festival or concert going on down there.
Well, you see, if the token fare was the base fare, no one would bother to buy tokens. However, only 15 percent of the riders actually pay the base fare anyway.
How would it hurt SEPTA if riders stopped buying tokens? If that's what the riders find more convenient, why put another barrier in their way?
Yeah, but it costs money to make tokens, though, and it would certainly be a waste.
So why charge a premium on riders who prefer to pay in American currency rather than the more expensive (for SEPTA), tokens?
It's takes more time for a rider to pay in cash than it does to pay with tokens or to use a pass. You have to get the dollar in the right way and make sure you don't jam the coin slot. with a token, you just throw it in and walk out. It gets things moving much more quickly and smoothly, not to mention that you don't have to wait for that person to find that nickel for the machine.
Sorry. I've meant to say that you can't use tokens at all on The Regional Rail, but you can use a regular Transpass with extra zone charges on Monday-Friday and no zone charges on weekends and holidays (in other words, anywhere).
I have no use for regional rail on weekends. Why pay so much extra for something I'm not going to use?
My point is that SEPTA badly needs to revamp their fare structure. They should be encouraging people to buy and use passes, and the way to do that is to make them the same cost or cheaper than tokens - like MetroCard.
What about PATCO round trip transfers?
PATCO joint fares are $2.10, I'm not totally sure if that is the round trip transfers though (I've never ridden PATCO before).
$2.10 is the one-way fare between Philly and Woodcrest/Ashland/Lindenwold.
$2.10 would also be the round-trip transfer charge if the 50 cent discount remains unchanged.
I believe the PATCO transfer is proposed to go to $2.10, still a bargain considering that the base fare may go to $1.90. (I think the PATCO 'transfer' is currently $1.80.)
One thing to keep in mind about the fare increase is that it is still proposed. Knowing SEPTA, I suspect that it really wants a $1.75 base fare but is asking for more, realizing that this will score a sort of victory with those who want the fare lower.
The one thing I don't understand is why the results of the costly study on rationalization of fares is being scuttled. It's just like SEPTA to do this. It's also silly to include 'city' stations on R6 Cynwyd, R7/R8 Chestnut Hill and R8 Fox Chase (even though the last two stops on R6 Cynwyd are not in the city) as Zone 1 while several R7 Trenton stations and Wissahickon, Manayunk and Ivy Ridge on R6 Norristown aren't changing.
Of course, the real culprit is our esteemed State Legislature, which finds ways not to fund transit, and even more ways to screw Phila.
For one thing, those stations may be included as Zone 1 stations as well, SEPTA didn't say that only the stations that I mentioned were going to be newly classified as Zone 1 stations. Anway, about the $1.75 fare that you think SEPTA "wants", it seems odd that in two decades the SEPTA fare more than doubled from 75 cents to 1.60. This fare increase of 2001 will be the first one that I'll actualy be concious of, since now I pay the fares myself and am more involved in SEPTA than I was when I was much younger and my mothe paid my fares for me.
About the State Legislator, how would one go about contacting this person? This funding thing is serious, especially is SEPTA is going broke and is "proposing" a serious fare increase. Do you know where one could find an email address or fax number or address?
I was referring to the Legislature as a whole. Contact your local representative and senator. I don't know about the web (I think it's state.pa....something). They need to support transit for a change.
In everything I've seen on SEPTA's web site, in the legal ads in the paper and in Metro, the list of lines moving to Zone 1 was quite specific in including R6 Cynwyd, R7 CH East, R8 CH West and R8 Fox Chase. I've seen no other individual lists of particular stations which could move on other lines.
The rise in transit fare over the two decades is not so drastic when you consider inflation and other factors. SEPTA has generally kept pace with other agencies as far as the scale of fare hikes, although it has been at the front of the pack in the amount of fare charged.
SEPTA has done this before with fares, asking for more and agreeing to settle for less. I have no basis other than my opinion that the desired fare is $1.75. I don't particularly think it's outrageous, although it could be lower, but I do object to continued cutbacks in service, quality of vehicles, etc. Also, SEPTA needs to take the studies it has performed on fares off the shelves and look more closely at them. It bothers me that good money was spent to perform these studies and they aren't being used. More imagination is needed in the fare area to get more people on transit.
Actually (at least now; I don't know about any proposed changes to this), the zones are determined strictly be mileage, as the crow flies, from City Hall, and not by any political jurisdiction, which I think makes sense. There was a controversy last year because the Bala station is just on the line of 5 miles from City Hall, but is classified as a zone 2.
Zones are funny things on SEPTA. On transit, you can cross the City limits on 11, 13, 21, 30 and 65 and pay no suburban zone. You can ride just as far on 14, 20, 22, 24, 27, 44, 55, 58, 121 and L and pay a 40-cent zone merely for crossing the City line. Regional Rail is much the same, although its zones aren't necessarily aligned with city/county boundaries.
Making Bala a Zone 1 RR station is fair. It's more than 5 miles from City Hall but it's still fairly close. Even Cynwyd could be Zone 1. However, travel either way on City Ave and you'll soon hit Overbrook and Wissahickon (with a slight turn to the north at Ridge Ave). Each of these will stay Zone 2 under the proposal. Why favor Bala and not extend the same to Overbrook and Wissahickon, each just as far as the crow flies from City Hall?
Wow - $1.90 for the base fare! Still, since tokens will be going up to $1.30, that's still not so bad. It's too bad SEPTA can't (or won't) offer free transfers from subways or trolleys to busses. But at least the fare increases are taking effect sytemwide including on Regional Rail trains.
They say Regional Rail goes up 12.7%. I wonder if they mean it ?
Will the Zone 5 fare go from $5 to $5.60 or to a flat $6 ?
I read that, on average, they may go up between 12% and 16% or N%. Various zones rise approximately that much, but I'm sure they'll all be rounded. However, no final numbers are out yet.
The zone 5 fare is going up to $5.50 during peak hours and $4.25 during off peak hours. You can get the information on the proposed fares at SEPTA's site www.septa.org.
Like I mentioned in my earlier post, even though I don't use SEPTA on
a daily basis, I do use it whenever I visit my friends in Philly and
of coarse when I do my railfanning. After finding out that SEPTA is
proposing a fare hike, right away I started to stock up on tokens so
the fare increase won't affect me for quite a while. Since most
transit riders hoard tokens prior to a fare hike, can the same be
done with Regional Rail tickets? For example, if I decide to buy
several strips of 10-trip tickets on the day before the fare increase
goes into affect, would they still be honored after the fare increase,
or would I have to pay the difference when the conductor collects the
ticket? I know that Regional Rail tickets are good for I believe
either 3 or 6 months after purchase. If Regional Rail tickets
purchased before the fare hike are still good after the fare hike, I
will stock up on those as well as tokens.
You can hoard regional rail tickets, but there is an expiration date after 90 days of the ticket purchase, so it would make it impractical.
Do tokens change after a fare increase? I vaguely remember a NY token with a four sided hole under the $1.25 fare, which then changed to a five sided hole for $1.50, but I haven't lived in Philly during a fare increase.
SEPTA tokens have changed after fare increases and have remained unchanged after fare increases. I wouldn't expect them to change again any time soon.
the $1.25 token had a solid bullet interior. Look at the tech section on the site and check out the tokens used in the past. The current token is nicknamed "The Five Boro Token".
SEPTA apparently needs 32 million dollars for the 2002 funds. Most people are angry, saying that SEPTA has among the highest fares in the nation. However, the thing is that only 15 percent of people actually pay that price. Everyone else uses passes and tokens, and SEPTA is supposedly encouraging people to continue to use these. In fact, they are ordering more tokens and placing more TVMs in more stations. They are also simplifying the zone areas, and the R6 Cynwyd, the R8, and the R7 Chestnut Hill will have all of their stops in the Zone 1 area, and therefore people can use their transpasses on these lines. However, the R7 Trenton and the R6 Norristown will not be affected in the same way, although maybe some of their stops will be moved to zone one. The dividing part of the lines apparently is Center City. Nevertheless, I wish there was some way we could help them with the funds without a fare increase, but I guess we're too small or whatever. Also, SEPTA is too lazy to do those other things suggested. It's sad that SEPTA is going into debt though and is broke. Someone should take it over soon enough.
Remind me never to come to Philly. It's bad enough you all don't have any RTS buses, but those fares are the worst! I like Houstons and NYCs easy to understand fares. You shouldn't have to read a fare posting 2+ times to understand it. I don't see why SEPTA is going down the toilet, I thought it was a good transit system. Doesn't it even get government funding?
I really think it used to be better. I really do, I loved SEPTA, as you already know. I heard that it's government funding was cut in half, though. Plus, I guess they used up a lot of money with renovations and new vehicles and whatnot, it just ran out. Rather stupid, though, particularly when they had all these fare studies and such. But seriously, SEPTA wasn't this bad in my opinion, but I really didn't know back then as much about this company as I know now, so maybe my opinion isn't that valid, but I certainly know that I liked SEPTA a lot better back then than I do now.
What do you mean by "Someone should take it over soon enough."? The Commonwealth? The City? I'd welcome almost any change in management. Something also has to be done about the industrial-era unions that have strangled Philadelphia for decades.
what I meant is like, well, you know how SEPTA took over PTC and Red Arrow, and how the WMATA bought out DC Transit and others. Like, a new philadelphia company.
I remember back as recent as the early and mid 1980's, SEPTA was one
of the lowest in the nation!!! I remember it was somewhere around
1983 or 1984 when the base fare was 75 cents, and a one way off-peak
zone 4 Regional Rail trip to/from Center City was $2.50!!! How the
times have changed! I just wish we could go back to the 1980's!
Wow, they were really that low? I wasn't really alive back then, so I wouldn't know. You know, if SEPTA goes through with this fare increase, the base fare would have more than doubled the base fare back then. In fact, it already has now!
NY1 Story
Local lawmakers and residents on the Lower East Side are staging another protest Thursday over the planned closing of the Grand Street subway station during construction on the Manhattan Bridge.
It seems they are talking about closing it now, instead of running the shuttle. Or, that is just the residents' fears, and they didn't realize it would still be open with a shuttle. It's not mentioned in the link, but on the broadcast it was mentioned that they are still pushing for a shuttle bus, and now people have realized the Bowery could be used, with increased service.
I don't understand. Why do they keep pushing the Canal St. Station as the main alternative when The Bowery station is virtually in the same neighborhood as the Grand St. station? Can you say M train?
Chinas President Jiang Zemin has dropped his demands for a U.S. apology prior to the release of the 24 US personel being detained at a "guest house" since the air crash a week ago. Instead the hard liner Generals of the PLA (Peoples Lberation Army} are now demanding continued service to Grant St Subway Station with both local and express service and a note of "regret" from the DOT and the MTA.
avid
Gary: For that matter, does terminating the "G" at Court Street make any more sense? They say you can transfer to the #7 Train from there, or the E or the R, but you had better not be in a hurry and you had better take your vitamins because that is one hell of a haul. I'm really beginning to think the MTA is out to lunch. Time to put Train Dude in charge, and make me an offer I can't refuse and hire me to run the Southern Division because that also goes to hell.
There may be no solution for the G, although it seems that the MTA isn't looking too hard to find one. Obviously, with the north side of the bridge closed, Grand St. becomes worthless. But the M connects from Brooklyn to The Bowery and continues to Essex/Delancey with a transfer to the F. Why aren't they promoting this?
There may be no solution for the G, although it seems that the MTA isn't looking too hard to find one. Obviously, with the north side of the bridge closed, Grand St. becomes worthless. But the M connects from Brooklyn to The Bowery and continues to Essex/Delancey with a transfer to the F. Why aren't they promoting this?
(Obviously, with the north side of the bridge closed, Grand St. becomes worthless. But the M connects from Brooklyn to The Bowery and continues to Essex/Delancey with a transfer to the F. Why aren't they promoting this?)
If the politicians had allowed the MTA to build the DeKalb -- Rutgers connection, they would have been able to run trains right from Sunset Park (N) or Bensonhurst (B) to East Broadway and Delancy, a few blocks from Grand Street. Bet they wish they had that connection now.
Can they say J/M/Z to Canal? Much faster than a damned shuttle bus!
The riders will figure this out within two weeks to a month from the implementation of the Manny B switchover, and the shuttle busses -- stuck in the gawdawful traffic at the Bowery/Canal/Manny B intersection -- will carry fewer and fewer people until eventually, the MTA will discontinue the service.
The only annoyance will be the fact that they haven't fixed up the stairs leading directly from the Broadway express tracks at Canal to the J/M/Z, which will mean a walk around the end of the platform for riders going from Canal to Bowery in the AM rush. The PM rush transfer back to Brooklyn will be easier.
Why transfer there at all for Brooklyn when they can take the M and transfer if necessary at DeKalb on the same platform? Am I missing something?
Bowery-Canal, one stop. Canal-DeKalb, one stop. Bowery-Dekalb, 7 stops.
Plus, if a J or Z comes first, it is better to take it to Canal where there are 3 trains to South Brooklyn instead of one.
That may be true, but I think the question here is which choice the average commuter would prefer:Fewer stops with two transfers (with only one being on the same platform) or more stops with one same platform transfer. You and I would probably go for fewer stops/ accross the bridge/ two transfers, but I'm not so sure about those commuters.
Riders would prefer across the platform transfers, and that's what some of them will take. But given some of the twisting routes riders already use to change trains at major transfer sites like East New York, 74th-Roosevelt or the Times Square and Grand Central complexes, others will find the quicker trip to and from Brooklyn justifies the change at Canal.
The change going home each day will be easy -- just get on towards the front of a J/M/Z train at Bowery, take it one stop and go downstairs to the Q/W Brooklyn-bound platform. It's the trip from Brooklyn to Bowery that's going to require either the roundabout walk from the east end of the Canal St. Q/W platform up to the north end of the downtown Canal J/M/Z and then around the south end of the platform to the downtown side, or a second trip upstairs to the J/M/Z mezzanine and then back down again to the Willie B bound platform.
I've never been upstairs at Canal, so I know nothing about its J/M/Z mezzanine, but all staircases on the NB J/M/Z platform, up and down, are barricaded. The only access to and from the NB platform are around the south end of the center tracks.
Also, access to the Brooklyn-bound bridge platform is from the middle of the J/M/Z platform, not the south end.
It might be a wash for N and R riders, since they would need to do a double transfer -- once at DeKalb or Pacific to the Q/W and then again at Canal for the Nassau Loop -- but for riders on the Brighton or West End line (even with the M on the West End) it would be far faster to use the Q/W across the bridge to Canal and then transfer, since passengers will have their choice of the J, M and Z instead of just the M alone to the Bowery.
Why doesn't the TA poke a hole in the curtain wall and bridge the (now-unused) center tracks today? Not only will it make the transfer easier, it needs to get done eventually unless the TA plans on abandoning the northbound stop at Canal for the entire duration of the construction.
This story is completely insane. The station will not be closed under any service plan. Protests are futile to begin with. As a completely unavoidable rehab project MUST require the north side tracks to be closed off, no reasonable alternative to the one the TA has provided exists. And as a temporary reroute, the community has absolutley no legal right to have any say in how the plan is carried out.
The politicians realize this, but they are using it to further their own ambitions. Chinatown and south Brooklyn must adjust to the new service plan. There's nothing more to be said.
But of course it is. I just would have liked to have seen one journalist to have had the balls to ask Giuliani or any of the other dolts what they would like to see, and then tell them that the City was repairing the bridge and how did they expect the trains to run while the repairs were in progress.
Ya know, the only reason I think that politicians get away with being so dumb is that their constituents, by and large, are actually, gasp dumber.
Quickly scurries away to put on flame-proof clothing…
[...I just would have liked (to see) one journalist...tell (Giuliani) that the City was repairing the bridge....]
Actually, Rudy went on record complaining that Transit never told DOT that the trains were being removed from the bridge. Technically, that's true - only because it was DOT that GAVE the order. Rudy is and has been fully aware of that fact, but sounded off anyway because he's Rudy.
Since then, Rudy has been quiet about the issue. He probably now knows that he "mis-spoke." But for him to say he was wrong, well, the man does not know how to apologise.
(I just would have liked to have seen one journalist to have had the balls to ask Giuliani or any of the other dolts what they would like to see, and then tell them that the City was repairing the bridge and how did they expect the trains to run while the repairs were in progress.)
I wish I still has a copy of that E-mail I got back from the Mayor's website YEARS AGO (after I had written in pointing out the problem with the bridge and informing them of the damage to Brooklyn). The Mayor's office said its the MTA's problem, not his. Politicians love "unaccountable" bureaucracies like the MTA and the BOE. The pols make the decisions, then bash the bureaucrats for their own mistakes.
Actually, a few of us here have posted reasonable alternatives. (Of course, none of them go so far as to connect Grand to Brooklyn, but they at least reduce the pain of the proposed two-stop shuttle. Yes, they do involve being somewhat flexible in current TA practice.)
There's no reason most of the Grand users can't walk to other nearby stations to go to Brooklyn, but there's also no reason to cut off northward service from Grand.
And the M, of course, should run around the clock to Brooklyn (except, perhaps, if and when the entire bridge is closed and the tunnel is overburdened).
Here's the story at Newsday.
Asif we really forgot TA's little "experiment"
with atomic bombardier/kawasaki armadillos...
..and look how that science project went HAYWIRE.
In St. Louis Car Company WE TRUST.
Not to worry, no misguided neutrinos on those watches ... what they mean by "atomic watches" is that they have radio receivers in them which can pick up the signals from the NIST (formerly National Bureau of Standards) WWV, WWVB amd WWVH radio stations which transmit pulses generated by the NIST Cesium clock in Boulder CO (formerly Greenbelt, MD) ... clearly a reporter who didn't quite get what they were writing about and failed to say "watches that receive time SYNCHRONIZATION from an atomic clock" ...
I can imagine many Newsday readers will no longer ride the subways as a result of that story fearing that they'll glow at night. :)
I will be the first to wear one. On then ask the command center for a time check and fine that my witch is ten min, slow. I would then tell command that I would have to up to the street to have my watch set right. These watches won't work in the Subway, just like my cell phone dose't work. My cell phone tell me the time when is in on, so I guest the is an Atomic type Cell Phone.
Robert
TA's got radio in the tunnels - I'm sure they'll see a 5 or 10 MHz signal SOMEHOW somewhere along the route ... curious to see how they're planning on doing this though since they'll need to rebroadcast WWV/WWVB somehow and the signals vary since it's "shortwave." But that article seemed to leave me (former ham, knowitall when it comes to transmitting RF) wondering what the reporter was thinking with that "nuclear watch" stuff ... seemed to suggest that the trains would be radioactive. :)
Reception of WWVB signals, especially the 60 KHz service, used to be unreliable in the City for time synchronization receivers. I read that NIST boosted the power in 1999, maybe that has helped. All the radio services come from Ft. Collins CO and the northeast USA is at the furthest point for a ground wave signal.
NIST runs free time synchronization services via the internet. At least one of these servers is based in NYC. I'm sure that the TA could figure out a way to run a time server for their network synched to NIST's server, if they are not already doing this. This won't provide millisecond accuracy, but it will be more than adequate for NYCT purposes.
Yep ... I was aware of those - 60KHz though sure ain't gonna make it through the leaky coax in the tunnels. I'd find them hard pressed to repeat the 10MHz signals ... it seems optimized for 150 MHz and there isn't any NIST up there. But twice a day for synch should be good enough. Most folks on the system do get out of the tunnels at least twice a day. :)
I will be the first to wear one. On then ask the command center for a time check and fine that my witch is ten min, slow. I would then tell command that I would have to up to the street to have my watch set right. These watches won't work in the Subway, just like my cell phone dose't work. My cell phone tell me the time when is in on, so I guest the is an Atomic type Cell Phone.
Robert
The watches won’t receive time updates when they are in the subway, but they will keep time accurate to less than a second. They then will readjust automatically when you come up for air!
St. Louis Car Company only built cheap garbage.
Now, if you want to see a company that could really build a car, there was BUDD.
Now the TA is going to retire the R-38 through R-42 soon, All Crap Louis built, but the BUDD built R-32 will be celebrating its 50th birthday in service.
Just remember the prime directive ... low bidder WINS! :)
They'll need more that a 1000 watches to cover every T/O and C/R, unless they plan to share them.
Peace,
ANDEE
And who is going to pay for all this? Why not get the bus dispatchers some talking pencils that say "MTA, going your way". Rule 29 already calls for us to have working reliable timepieces and bulletins require synchronization to boot. I have not had one chargable train delay due to my misconception of time. If I am five minutes late, I know it. These managers have too much time on their hands. Perhaps it should be cut.
isnt the repeater identification that is broadcast on MTA frequencies which already include a "Time Check" and a friendly (usually) message of, "we care about You and your safety" enough of time verification? I agree with you
COMMAND: "Pelham 13:23 come in to Command"
Pelham: "Pelham 1323, go ahead command"
Command: "Pelham, where are you?"
Pelham: "Stand by command, looking at my watch, umm -73.918243 degrees longitude by +40.8092380 latatuide"
Forget the new signal system, get GPS watches!!!
For a moment, I honestly thought this was one of Heypaul's zany posts.:-)
Almost, and if you check those coordinates you will find them in the Bronx >G<....
From what it sounds those atomic watches will be a big bust. Too bad they're not based on HAARP technology (High Altitude Auroral Research Project). The radio waves would have a better chance of penetrating through buildings and earth, but unfortunately, the nearest HAARP transmitter is in the wilds of Alaska.
BTW, there are rumors that Brookhaven National Labs has a small version of HAARP.
BMTman
HAARP ionizes the atmosphere - a modern day equivalent of some of Tesla's most off the wall research - allows radar to look WAY over the horizon among some other amusing things. Wouldn't do much good underground - that's tomography (spelled correctly so you can search) type stuff. VLF, used for submarine comms is more likely.
But as far as the watches go, they will look to synchronize on average twice a day if they can "see" the signal. They're willing to wait for you to come out of that hole in the ground to do so though. They DO work actually though upstate, we don't get as much time underground as you guys do. However, in the Empire State Plaza (where many state agencies and the legislature is located) there are expanses of underground cavern and offices where they worked just fine. And since the ESP is Rockefeller's personal monument, it was built to bomb shelter specs with lead and steel cladding. All you guys have over your head is concrete and pavement. I wouldn't worry about the signals making it ...
So Doug ... are you a ham?
This was one of the ideas that came out of the recent manager's Conference. It makes sense if you think about it. They explained it this way. Look at your watch. Everyone did and not suprisingly, the times varied. When you are running on a two minute headway, a thirty second difference is considerable. One minute is intollerable. At least if every RTO person's watch shows exactly the same time, there's a better chance that trains will leave on time.
Quartz Railroad Approved watches should be ok
Can they be synchronized. The thrust of the demonstration was that a difference of 30 seconds can be significant.
Once upon a time subway and el running times were quoted with 1/2 minute precision. What happened?
Once upon a time - el trains were pulled by steam locomotives too.
Once upon a time - el trains were pulled by steam locomotives too.
Some of today's schedules pale by comparison. :-)
They still are.
They lose very little time (<1 second/Month) and are set against a standard clock (Railroad practice)
But Dude, if the watches are sychronized by GPS accurracy, then this proposal may NOT work because of satellite signals being broken up by buildings, and the concrete/steel of the subways themselves.
BMTman
The watches will be synchronized every time the employee comes "up for air." In between syncros, the watches will keep near perfect time. Even if not synchro'ed for days on end, they will drift less than a second. I think this is a terrific idea.
As an aside, many of you know that I sometimes broadcast to WCBS Newsradio from my home in suburban Boston via a digital telephone line. Every hour I have to "back time" to the sounders/jingles leading up to the headlines at the top-of-the-hour, or to a special network report. Being off by even one second from the CBS Radio Network means either dead air, or my talking over something else. How do I do it? With the same technology -- a digital clock from Brookstone that is synchronized to the aforementioned atomic clock in Colorado by satellite transmission, as is the CBS Radio Network.
As a final aside, one of the press stories had someone saying that there were "...no GPS watches." Actually, there are. Casio makes them.
Todd ... wouldn't it be neat if reporters on the "technical beat" actually knew how to work a toaster? I get a kick out of stories like this where the output to paper makes it sound like conductors are going to be issued itsy-bitsy reactors or that a simple search on the internet isn't done before staking such claims. I had a buddy Jim Fordyce who worked CBS radio as well and you never messed with the "bong" if you knew what was good for ya. :)
>>> The thrust of the demonstration was that a difference of 30 seconds can be significant. <<<
An alternate method would be to use the system the Deutsche Bundesbahn uses; synchronized clocks in every station. As early as the 60s all the clocks in every station in the country were synchronized, with the second hands moving in unison each second. A more modern application would use digital displays, which might also have indications of + or - with regards to the schedule. Although it would be more expensive to install, there would not be as much replacement as with watches.
Tom
When I got my first paycheck, I went out and bought one of those two inch "train watches" on a chain made by Gruen and took it with me on the road. Kept it when I was unleashed as a motorman too. You'd set it at the TMO's office to their clock and those things kept pretty good time. I'd time my dwell time and everything. Has that all changed?
The thrust of the demonstration was that a difference of 30 seconds can be significant.
Did anyone in the TA try to figure out how much of a difference is significant for schedule maintenance or was the 30 seconds pulled out of the air?
For example consider two tracks merging into one. It takes about 70 seconds for a 600' train to negotiate the switch and the signals to clear. (700' @10mph + 750' @ 22.5 mph) Consider the ideal situation:
Time: 0:00 - First Train A approaches the switch
Time: 1:10 - First Train A clears switch
Time: 2:00 - First Train B approaches the switch
Time: 3:10 - First Train B clears switch
Time: 4:00 - Second Train A approaches the switch
etc.
Now consider this worst cases with 30 second precision
Time: 0:30 - First Train A approaches the switch - (dev +30 sec)
Time: 1:30 - First Train B approaches the switch - (dev -30 sec)
Time: 1:40 - First Train A clears switch
Time: 1:40+ - First Train B moves onto switch (delay 10 sec)
Time: 2:50 - First Train B clears switch
etc.
Time: 1.10 - First Train A clears switch
Time: 2:30 - First Train B approaches switch - (dev +30 sec)
Time: 3:30 - Second Train A approaches switch - (dev -30 sec)
Time: 3:40 - First Train B clears switch
Time: 3:40+ - Second Train A moves onto switch (delay 10 sec)
Clearly, 25 seconds is that maximum deviation that can be tolerated without causing delays due to switching confilcts. Suppose this were modelled as a random process If we wish to avoid such delays 99.5% of the time then the standard deviation from the scheduled times had better be kept to within 8.3 seconds. It would appear that 30 seconds precision is not adequate for such performance.
Next, consider 90 second headways (40 tph). The maximum deviation is 10 seconds. The same performance level means that the standard deviation form scheduled times should be less than 3.3 seconds.
In either case, 30 second precision is far too coarse a measure for what is required. The TA should be looking into ways for providing metrics in 10 second intervals for current headways and in 5 second intervals for operating the system at its design level.
That's all well and dandy but the switches have a timing device in them to prevent trains from running through. If a train is on the circuit of the approach signal and the homeball is red/red the switch won't mechanically move until the time runs down. The time varies according to speed restrictions of the area.
The point is to determine the degree of accuracy and precision necessary to maintain 2 minute and 90 second headways. This figure is around 10 seconds for 30 tph and 5 seconds for 40 tph. The idea that schedules and operations need be accurate to the nearest minute (+/- 30 seconds) is not compatibile with such operation.
Yes, switches and tracks are protected by a signal system to prevent split switches and collisions. However, if the schedules are properly designed and if they are maintained to the necessary accuracy and precision then they will not affect operations because there will always be a green aspect.
You fail to take into account those times where passengers hold doors to the point that the conductor has to open and close 5 or 6 times. That will certainly mess up the accurate precison.
The system will not work, if there is an insufficient number of operating trains to provide swift entry and egress for the passengers. I would ascribe a fair amount of blame on the NYCT because they have reduced the number of trains and the amount of space allocated to entrance and egress. I would not blame the customers at every opportunity.
[The system will not work, if there is an insufficient number of operating trains to provide swift entry and egress for the passengers. I would ascribe a fair amount of blame on the NYCT because they have reduced the number of trains and the amount of space allocated to entrance and egress. I would not blame the customers at every opportunity.]
Then too, for all the talk, I've seen no serious attempt to clamp down on door holding: most passengers don't even know the problem exists. I don't know which of several prospective solutions will work, but I do know that if they don't try *something* to solve the problem nothing will happen.
Customers know from experience that they can't trust any announcement saying "There's another train right behind this one." I'm sure most commuters can tell a story about hearing that announcement and then waiting 30 minutes on an overcrowded platform until finally an overcrowded local shows up. Better to take the sure thing.
The thing is, commuters seem to trust PATH announcements, at least that's my observation when such announcements are made at terminals.
The system where I drive transit buses recently switched out radio systems over to a new system which includes a clock, so that all buses now have the same exact time. The clocks are the atomic variety, and the radio system also has GPS so vehicle positioning can be observed/recorded, etc. (It sure helps the mechanics find broken-down buses when the need arises....)
Why not equip the cab of each subway car with an atomic clock readout, might be cheaper than issuing every conductor and train operator one -- aren't their a lot more employees than cabs?
A clock on the train is of no use if the crew is not aboard. It is hard enough to make up lost time as it is. The powers that be have cut the running times the bare minimum.
The cynic in me says this: first the dispatcher has to give you the starting lights on time. As a practical matter, the dispatcher cannot stare at the clock. There is much paper work to be done and the phone is always ringing. Calls from the line supt, towers, the dispatcher on the other end of the line so he knows what trains are coming to him, calls from Control Center. How can the trains leave on time when the customers are always holding the doors after the starting lights are given? Let these decision makers who really don't have a clue what the road is really like visit the E line at Parsons/Archer & WTC and they will see what really goes on. Finally, every t/o & c/r knows that in the case of a late clear, you always get screwed. Those atomic clocks will really drive the point home! As far as I'm concerned, you clear when you step off that train. Not to the TA. They put down the time when you pass the dispatchers office, if it's 55 seconds, it is not rounded to the next minute either! And they still fudge the time at that to make the stats look better. Now, the crews will know for sure how much time they are cheated out of. A minute here, two minutes there start to add up.
[Now, the crews will know for sure how much time they are cheated out of. A minute here, two minutes there start to add up. ]
You have an option of taking another job, if you believe that some $10 a week (if that much) is a highway robbery.
Arti
That's not the point Arti, you should get paid for the time that you put in. The amount of money is immaterial.
But if you want to count the money, $10 a week over time equals $520 a year which is a weeks wages for most people. Anyone here willing to give up that kind of bread?
Point is nitpicking, I charge by an hour , but it has never crossed my mind to care about a minute here and there.
[But if you want to count the money, $10 a week over time equals $520 a year which is a weeks wages for most people]
Highly doubt that a TO would work for $520 a week, actually don't think that most of the people in NYC would bother to go to work for $27k a year, nor can you afford to live here for that much money.
Also if you get paid $520 a week then then we are probably talking about few lost bucks a week, big deal.
Arti
The fact of the matter is that all we ask for is to get paid for the time we work. Nothing more, nothing less. If I owned my own business or was a TA manager, sure I wouldn't nitpick as I would be a salaried managerial employee. But unionized workers get paid by the hour, and additional part thereof beyond the official end of workday time is supposed to be paid by the employer. In addition, I NEVER am able to go home early. If you are a manager of some sort, I can see your point. But if you are not a big boss, how many times does your supervisor let you go home a bit early on the Friday before a holiday, or the day before Thanksgiving, or the day before July 4th, etc. Does that boss pay his worker less for the day? I doubt it. The boss never lets a motorman or conductor go home early as we are on the road working on a schedule. If I would go home early, it is called "padding the payroll", a fraudalent, dismissable offense. Why should any working man work for free? All I ask for that the arrival time corresponds to the time the employee finishes his workday. And end of workday means the time I walk off that train, and not the time the train passes the dispatchers office. The passenger arrives when the doors open, so even there the the TA says the train arrived is not the same.
[And end of workday means the time I walk off that train, and not the time the train passes the dispatchers office. ]
But it's only minute or two. Also TWU seems to think that practice is tolerable. IMO you cant time everything in life with a stopwatch.
Another option is to reduce the hourly pay by .1 % to make it look fair :-)
Arti
Obviously I have my point of view on the subject and you have yours. At this point, all we are doing is going around in circles. All I know is this: the guy who works and gets paid 9 to 5 is out the door at 5 o'clock. The train service employee is still working at that 5 o'clock equivalent and is only getting paid to that 5 o'clock equivalent. And I see the TA throwing barrels of money into those garbage trains by giving it to private contractors who do work so substandard that the TA workers have to straighten it out after those incompetants leave the property. You have that pre conceived notion that it is OK because those transit workers themselves make barrels of money. Let me remind you that I live within the confines of NYC where the money doesn't go very far and eventhough I would like to remove my sons from the NYC Public School System I cannot afford to. If I was hauling in as much money as you think, I would be able to send them to private school and not be driving an 11 year old car.
I understand your concerns about making fair income, but now you make it sound as if TA is screwing you out of big bucks.
What started this was IMO that TOs get screwed with few minutes of pay a day, an amount of money we could hardly call a fortune.
Now the real question is, what does the union think of that?
Arti
There is new leadership in the union as you may know. The prior leadership was in bed with the TA. Lots of people in high union positions made well into the six figure range + expense accounts and had a different & far superior benefit package than the people they represented. With the new leadership the salaries have been greatly reduced and the benefit package is the same as the workers. I say this for good reason: lots of stuff that the TA got away with in the prior leadership will be questioned by the new regime. It has happened already. Toussaint, as his first act of office, fired the old "arbitors" and they and the TA had to agree on new ones because the TA was winning an inordinate number of cases. There is lots of union vs. management unrest right now. I'm glad I have sufficient seniority to pick vacation the week of 12/15/02.
You might have a point with taking vacation on the week of 12/15/02.
Fortunately with my 20 minutes in title, I can do the same.
Seniority. Feh!
The Fair Labor Standards Act calls for us to get paid at time and a half for those who exceed an 8 hour day. I don't consider a motorman, engineer, conductor or airline pilot to be civil servants, or public employees, we are specialists, covered by collective bargaining agreements. The TA nickels and dimes their employees, just like our beloved section 1.6 calls for: Normally Accepted Managerial Perogatives. Using the stopwatch theory, it took almost 7 minutes to walk from the crew report center at Parsons Archer to their assigned train intervals. If they cut five minutes a day due to the unpaid practice of signing out at that location, that is short ten minutes short of an hour per pay period. Imagine every employee refusing to sign out on this basis: one employee needed for an extra trip will cause for an ABD. Two other nickel and dime approaches are the 100 minute hour and the fudging of the on time performance. NYCTA still does their train register sheets in pencil and trains that are up to 5 minutes late are recorded as on time. What happened to my money there? Should I be expected to donate my remaining time so the TA will look good to the public? Only if I am the superintendant.
So actually the issue is more than few minutes a day? What you saying it could be 15 - 20 ?
Arti
At Parsons Archer: sign in at that Crew Reporting Center then all the way down to the dispatchers office to get on your train dodging all the passengers entering the system. Reverse the process when you finish. If your radio battery needs-a-changing, you have to make an additional trip up there. I will not miss that terminal one bit! Less than 12 weeks till I get outta there! I can hardly wait! Oh yeah, if you work the E there is no toilet on the E level, you have to walk onto the E benchwall, go down a very steep& dangerous metal staircase, then walk the J benchwall to the toilet which is behind the J dispatchers office. All the comforts of home.-----NOT!!!-----
"You can't time everything in life with a stopwatch". But the point of the atomic watches is that the crews have to work with a stopwatch! So if I have to work with a stopwatch, shouldn't I get paid with the precison of a stopwatch? You can't have it both ways. Or can you? I guess you agree with the TA philosophy of having your cake and eating it too. Do you work with a stopwatch? It is a lot of pressure. And don't tell me if I don't like it quit! Whoever takes my place will feel the same way. If you have all the answers why don't you take the test and join us and see what it's like? Finally, in all TA notices it says "Every Second Counts". Again I ask why does it have to come down to the train service employee when the customers sabatoge the service reliability by holding doors and not getting off the trains when they feel sick. The sick passenger incidents are at epidemic proportions. It causes countless delays. How come more passengers are getting sick on the trains today than ever before? How come not so many years ago when you were lucky to have the fans working let alone having generally well ventilated cars which you have today you had only a fraction of sick passengers.
[How come more passengers are getting sick on the trains today than ever before? ]
You not implying that TA has sometning to do with that?
BTW don't you get payed overtime if you shift gets delayed?
Arti
I am not implying in the least that the TA is at fault with sick passengers, but the implication of this thread started out with the premise that the reason why the trains do not leave the terminal on time is because the crews were not ready. Hence the reason for atomic clocks. I was just trying to point out that the railroad is late for reasons the public is responsible for: holding doors & sick customers......Of course we get overtime if the shift is delayed significantly, but it goes back to the beginning: as I explained in my previous comments that the time the dispatcher clocks you in is not the time you actually finish working. If the dispatcher noticed the clock read 12:58 + 55 seconds when I passed his office and I was due at 12:57 PM (my clearing time according to the payroll), he will put on his sheets an on time arrival at 12:57 PM. An overtime slip must correspond to the arrival time the disp shows on his sheets. No way is he going to show a train 1 minute late! The supt will crucify him! By the time I key by signals, place brakes in emergency, remove tools, lock cab door and step out of train it may be 1:01 PM. A paltry 4 minutes? In a normal job, you're out the door at 12:57, probably sooner! That 4 minutes a day translates to 20 minutes a week, 80 minutes in a month! This is lost wages. If you like working for free, that's your perogative. The TA is not a charitable organization in which people volunteer to work for no wages.
[No way is he going to show a train 1 minute late! ]
Wouldn't this translate to a lot of additional paperwork?
[In a normal job, you're out the door at 12:57, probably sooner! ]
I don't know what your work experience is, but there are a lot of "normal" but salaried (not hourly rate) jobs where 9 to 5 would only be a dream. There are people who work hours of overtime without any compensation whatsoever, without extensive medical and other benefits TA employees take for granted. Tell that you don't get payed for few minutes of overtime to some administrative assistant who has to routinely stay afterhours to finish something for her boss.
Arti
The train register sheets have a column where the number of minutes late is shown. A train is statistically on time if it is no more than 5 minutes late. Sooooo, a train 7 or 8 minutes late is always shown as 5 minutes late to make the on time performance look good......The medical benefits are not as good as you think. You may look at the total cost of benefits, but the nature of the business is very labor intensive. Plus transit workers are not hermits, they do have dependants! Therefore the monetary figures are high......That admistrative assistant you talk about, who can count on one hand the nights she has to stay late in the course of a year, puts in less total hours per year than a transit worker. Sure, she may stay late at times unpaid (but probably makes a hell of a lot more than any TA worker), but she may get comp time, or goes home early on Friday, or the day before Thanksgiving, XMas Eve, New Years Eve, and July 3, (still gets paid for the whole day), gets the day after Thanksgiving off with pay (unlike transit workers), Good Friday (or Passover Eve) leaves early or off completely. She is guaranteed a lunch hour. For example, my lunch is between my 2nd & 3rd trip. When the railroad is bad and I arrive late, I lose my lunch period. A week ago Friday, I had all of 10 minutes to sit down & eat. I accept all this as part of the job, but don't tell me that we have it better than the people we serve.
Have you ever worked in private industry? When I was working as an engineer for the video post production studio, I routinely worked 10 or so hours a week overtime unpaid as I was a salaried empoyee. That applies to more positions than you can imagine. And the medical benefits were nothing spectacular.
Arti
But Transit Workers are hourly employees, not salaried and different rules apply. I did work in private industry, for Chemical Bank back in the '70's and hated every day of it. I was assigned to a branch on E.14th St. To get home it was easy: the LL to Graham Ave. I moved up to a position where if we missed the last pick up of the day(because we had so many nite deposit bags which we couldn't do till the bank closed at 3 PM) I would have to take all the days paperwork to lower Manhattan with no compensation at all. And I wasn't even salaried! Still got paid by the hour, but the Bank refused to pay me! No union to complain to! So I walked with me feet! At least they paid my carfare one way!
[So I walked with me feet! At least they paid my carfare one way! ]
So you see it's not a cakewalk for oters either.
Arti
I can't take it any longer ... have you ever been terminated in your employment for dropping in an assemble edit instead of an insert edit and busting the control track? Or were you given the opportunity to go back and reedit the work? On the TA, hit a signal and you're GONE. No second chances. These guys work under insane pressures that don't exist out in the private sector since the subways are a POLITICAL entity and NOT a "service" ...
Hourly wage slaves have an entirely different deal and nickel and diming them on their wages violates the principles of the class of work as well as a few biblical things. Give the guys their fair due. Those who are required to live by the stopwatch should earn their minute. It's different in salaried positions ...
I'm a former broadcast Chief Engineer ... if you are on salary and you do the work, sometimes you can take off early if you've been really good at doing what you need to get done AND you can get a raise a lot more readily if you can demonstrate the revenue you've personally created as compared to folks stuck in an hourly/collective baragaining realm ... it really is two different worlds here.
>>> I don't know what your work experience is, but there are a lot of "normal" but salaried (not hourly rate) jobs where 9 to 5 would only be a dream <<<
It is not fair to compare salaried jobs to hourly wage jobs. That is an apples and oranges comparison. Usually to be an "exempt" (as in exempt from being paid by the hour) employee, you must have a managerial or professional position. The idea being that what you are contributing to the organization paying you is the output of your brains and experience, rather than having to be somewhere to perform physical labor. At the lower levels of management this is frequently abused by the organization which results in supervisors working far beyond 40 hours a week with no overtime, and earning a lower hourly pay than some of the senior workers they supervise.
The fact that organizations abuse some of their exempt employees is no reason to say it is ok to cheat the hourly employees. Even if it is only a few minutes a day it adds up. I could be very rich if I could find a way to steal one cent a day from everyone in the country.
Tom
After getting reamed by pretty much everybody, I have to admit that probably my real problem is unions...
Arti
[That 4 minutes a day translates to 20 minutes a week, 80 minutes in a month! This is lost wages. ]
That's less than 1% of your income!
Arti
I'll take the 1% raise!
As Engine Brake said, there is already a rule in the NYCT book,
which is basically boilerplate for any railway rulebook, that
says all employees must carry a reliable watch and make sure it
agrees with some ordained reference clock.
Why do we have to keep on introducing expense and gadgets to
compensate for failure to adhere to the rules and common sense
(e.g. the door enable system)?
A few years ago, to combat exactly this same problem, synchronized
digital clocks were installed at the motorman's stop marker positions
at many terminals and gap stations. Well, that was nice, but now
they are mostly out of service and unmaintained.
How about this: as part of a motor instructor's little field check
performance evaluation card, why not simply verify, when writing
down the pass number, that the crew member has a watch and that
it agrees to within 30 seconds with the motor instructor's watch?
In case of dispute, call control center and have them tell you
the canonical time.
Actually, why bother to give m/m watches at all? They really have
little control over the on-time performance of their train. It's
mostly the c/r and external factors. Before the great fleet
neutering, one could make up a little time by running fast, but
now, forget it!
I think you are missing some important points. This proposal came from a meeting of NYCT "generals and managers", it has received press coverage and has been publicized internally on Transit Transit. This is a prime example of high level NYCT management's ability to quickly address the system's critical problems.
These people listen to the pulse of every day operations. Uninformed observers, like myself, realized that a +/- 30 second accuracy would not be sufficient. This was forseen by the proposal's originators. They explained that this was designed to improve the on time performance of the night operations when trains are scheduled to run once every twenty minutes on Transit Transit. Clearly, there is a better chance of improving on time performance with +/- 30 second accuracy clocks, when service leves are 3 tph than during rush hours. These guys ain't stupid.
They appear to be really proud of the results of this high level brainstorming session. They stated that they believed that many of the suggestions that came out of it are worthy of having come from many of the outside consultants they hire.
We managed to run an on-time railroad with basic reliable watches during my career of years ago and they did so long before my time. Schedules allowed little room for being ahead not that we didn't do it some times, especially on the IND. As you say a lot depends on external factors and when things were bad and we had a lot of bad equipment the best watch in the world wouldn't keep you on time. Not to mention delays on line, congestion, etc.
Brother Ed! Howdy! Heh. Tell them about what it was like when the RCI wasn't at the station your train sheet the bed at. Out with the hammer, this puppy's gonna close whether it likes it or not ... back in a time when you broke off your OWN shoes thank ya much ...
A time when, no matter how bad things got, you could still have a wee bit of fun. Seems the TA these days (from what I hear in email) ain't anywhere NEAR as much fun as it once was ... and what possible incentive would "employees" have these days to do the funky stuff we used to do years ago to make the railroad work? Love your stories, bro! Smells like old times ... ya know, lacquer and all. :)
I understand that "if you don't spend it, you lose it", but c'mon here.
What is the TA going to do, install a time device at every control center radio antenna? Total waste of $$$.
I mean, good ideas do come out of those managerial conferences, but this one is a pound of bologna.
Actually only a half pound ... the other half pound was spent on them orange lights. :)
The idea about the 'atomic watches' may, in fact, be "CA-CA". I think, as usual, we're focusing on the wrong point. The purpose of the Managers Conference is two-fold. First, it's to showcase solutions the General Superintendents have come up with in response to problems that are keeping us from providing better service. Not every idea is a winner but we don't know until we try. The concept that each of our watches may vary by 1/2 to 1 minute and that difference may cause delays and less trains, makes sense to me. But the more important message is that all managers should try to be more creative in dealing with problems in their day to day duties. Not a bad thing for manager's to do.
I have it from a very reliable source that 3,000 of the watches have already been bought and paid for. The only question now is; do we hourly employees have to turn them in when we cease working in our titles like our other tools????
Hmmmmmmm! In my trainroom, I have my original brake handle, reverser, tripcock device and R-9 brake plug. They never asked for any tools to be turned in when I was promoted.
Oh sure ... go ahead and rub it in ... I'd give my left nut to have been able to keep my bag of tricks when I piped off the property. Then again, I can understand why they're made damned sure I didn't get to keep mine. Heh.
Well, Atomic watches won't keep you from being late, I'll tell you that right now. All Metro-Houston bus drivers have Atomic Watches, that's about 1,000-1,500 of them, and they've had them for at least 3-5 years. A driver told me that many people consider the buses late because the passengers watches aren't set to Metro's Atomic Time. But, when a bus is 20 minutes late, it really doesn't matter does it?
This is a journalist's question, re: the Grand Street Station closing. Does anyone know of examples, studies, etc. that show the economic impact of temporarily closing a station? Thanks.
This is a journalist's question, re: the Grand Street Station closing. Does anyone know of examples, studies, etc. that show the
economic impact of temporarily closing a station? Thanks.
Probably the best-known example involved the Jamaica Avenue El. Its eastern portion was demolished in the late 1970's in anticipation of its replacement by the Archer Avenue subway (current J/M/Z lines). Supposedly, local merchants agitated for the El's removal even though the new subway was still years off, because they claimed that the El's noise and shadows made the area less desirable and hurt their business.
As things turned out, more than a decade elapsed between the El's removal and the subway's opening. In that period, Jamaica Avenue's economic fortunes declined precipitously; many of the merchants who had demanded the El's premature removal had gone out of business in the interim.
As you might imagine, there's quite a bit of speculation involved. Other factors surely contributed to Jamaica's decline. Even so, it's hard to believe that the loss of the El, and the area's decade without subway service, did not have at least some effect.
Any such example would not apply to the Grand St station, since it is only seeing reduced service, not closing. It will be served by a subway shuttle from Broadway-Lafayette St (though at far greater headways than the current service it sees), and will have no subway connection with Brooklyn. To mitigate the severing of its Brooklyn connection, there will be a shuttle bus from the Canal St station.
(found in today's Albany NY Times Union, source unknown)
NEW YORK - Opponents of a plan to operate two new power generating plants in Long Island City celebrated Wednesday after a state judge issued a permanent injunction blocking construction.
State Supreme Court Justice Joseph Golia's decision called on the New York Power Authority to "cease and desist" work on the two gas turbine generators. A coalition of consumer groups filed a lawsuit to block the plants.
The New York Public Interest Research Group has filed suit opposing all 10 power plants being planned in the metropolitan area. The lawsuit contended that state energy officials have not done a thorough analysis of energy supply and demand, and that the proposal was hastily pushed through without enough consideration given to the effect on air pollution in the neighborhoods where they are planned.
The New York Power Authority has said that it is essential that the plants be built by summer to assure reliable service and avoid price spikes in electricity.
--------- end quote
Here's the deal folks ... before I came to work here at Privacy Software Corporation (PSC) I worked for the New York STATE PSC ... I worked in cable television but hung out with the electric guys ... here's reality, folks - MOST of the power plants upstate have been sold to PSE&G, PGE and other out of state companies. What this means is that the electricity that gets shipped south by Niagara Mohawk and other upstate power companies is NOT THERE ANYMORE ... the power NYC had been used to getting for peak summer demand is no longer available unless of course you don't mind doing the California price dance since it's now going to New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Ohio.
The NIMBYS and NYPIRG apparently failed to notice this. Stock up on candles and power generators folks ... you've been sold down the river. Summer will be here in next to no time - that's why PASNY wanted to do this in the city in the first place - given NYC's high costs, they WERE trying to look out for you guys but now that this has been done, NYC is now very literally on its own ... the "grid" doesn't go to NYC any longer ... unless of course the price you guys are willing to pay is attractive enough NOT to send it to Connecticut, Vermont and Jersey ...
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooo.
It's gonna be a very interesting summer in New York if those puppies ain't lit by June ... I mean c'mon ... does anybody REALLY think the state would have DARED to build generators inside the borders of NYC if there were any other place for them that would work? And if you look at the planned siting, it's QUITE interesting to note that most of them are being sited at major nodes of the subway system where more than one line joins others ... hmmm.
This raises some interesting questions about power generation.
In the past, AFAIK, stations were few and big, because of control reasons. Now, with electronic, computer controls, it’s possible to build a couple of hundred megawatt stations, quite small, running on natural gas, with very little environmental impact and run them remotely. The downside is possibly a little extra noise (though nothing more than a busy street) and a little extra CO2.
The upside is that since the generators feed the grid locally, there is less of a requirement to build the miles of transmission wires and pylons.
Shoot the NIMBYs. I hope this goes up to the State Supreme Court because this is one case that they must lose!
This from channel 4
" Brooklyn judge gives power plants go-ahead
Despite the objections of numerous consumer groups, a Brooklyn judge ruled that the New York Power Authority could continue with plans to open 10 new power plants in the metropolitan area."
We can breathe a slight sigh of relief, for now.
After all, how could anyone possibly find the interests of a few hundred people more important than the whole city?
The "local turbines" are a temporary measure to be able to provide power nearby. It's because there isn't a transmission line caoable of carrying New York City's needed additional power from the north (NIMBYs in Westchester, Orange, Putnam and Rockland) and so there's a shortage of tranmission line in addition to a shortage of power plants. Up here where I am, we've stood aside to allow them to add to the Albany Steam plant (gas fired) a new plant double the size of the original and over the next few years, six more BIG power plants will be built around this area alone to make sure the NY Metro area has the power it needs (we're already at surplus generating capacity for our own needs upstate so all of this new capacity is for you guys) ...
These "offending plants" though are being sited because they can be pretty much rolled in on trucks, assembled and hooked up so the lights stay on down in the city until these new plants get built and are available and additional transmission lines into Dunwoodie for Cone Head are also built. NYC now depends on a cable under the Hudson to Jersey for excess capacity and last year it glowed in the dark it was so overloaded. It goes on you this year, it'll be 1965 all over again for the city. Hey, nobody wants a power plant next door, but it's either that or folks are going to have to burn wood in their living rooms and walk to work from where they live. Which would you choose?
And amazingly, California already demonstrated what happens when folks use more electricity but won't build the power plants necessary to provide it. It's not like any of this should be a surprise.
Just think for the amount of combustion you'd need from millions of candles that still couldn't equal the electric light capability, wood stoves, [Missoula, MT has to order them shut down in thermal inversions, except of course for the low income] not to mention other things the power plants probably cause less pollution in the long run. Perhaps the solution is like they've done with all those nasty old factories...ship power production into 3rd world countries too? Along with jobs. I hope not; but if people want the service there's a price.
More reliable electricity in Chongqing than New York. Real possibility!
Dont worry, I'll make sure the military will be there to make sure these plants are built. Shoot and kill orders are out for any NIMBY's trying to sabatoge it. The city power supply is way more important than a few people who just happen to live by it.
If there is civil unrest in these neighborhoods, martial law will be declared and the peoples' will prevailed.
Sounds like a "workers paradise"
Well ... whereas if the power goes out upstate, we sit outside and twiddle our thumbs or in winter fire up the fireplace, when the lights go out in NYC, it's been "sidewalk shopping" here and there. Given that "lights out" can result in an increase in crime and lots of people just plain flipping out, keeping the lights on in NYC is considered a high priority by our sausagemakers ... I'd hate to see things get that carried away but at the same time, the siting of those plants was done just to prevent having to face the situation at all.
I could have sworn that the plants were sited so that they're near both major gas mains and major power lines.
Which seems very much to be the case at the two I've seen personally.
-Hank
That's precisely the logic used in the siting ... you'll find the others are also ...
Are you going to have your armies march down the streets carrying red flags and singing the Internationale?
Excuse OT but you hit a 'hot button' Deregulation is was and always will be a fraud and a ripoff. Get a clue, seize the plants from the gougers and return the system to control by the users-citizens. As several news stories here in CA have pointed out--THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF ELECTRICITY. The crooks involved have been selectively inventing maintenance driven shutdowns to decrease the supply and refusing to bid on supplying power to the ISO in order to jack up the prices. Blackouts have been triggered when the usage was several thousand megawatts LOWER than on the corresponding date a year previous when no 'crisis' had yet been concocted.
Agreed ... but dereg in New York was shoved down our throats several years ago by Paturkey and here we are. The big downside was the the utilities were required to *SELL* their power plants ... and they have. Mostly to PGE, PSE&G, Duke Energy, Entergy (they bought all the nukes and plan to have them ALL back online soon) and others.
So Con Ed and the Power Authority both look at the reality coming that NYPSC and others KNEW was coming (at least us engineer geek types - the lawyers still believe in antigravity and moonbeams) and said, we'd better put in some stopgap power generation or we're going to be in a world of hurt. The Envirokooks (let's face it, if you want to breath fresh air, you can find it about 50 miles outside the city and these folks are still living there) go ballistic NOW when an emergency solution is about to be deployed to keep the lights on. Where was NYPIRG and the others when Paturkey was selling the power plants? After all, if you're selling your generators, how can that be good for consumers? And this whole mess came about because the Envirokooks wanted the power companies to buy power from poorly constructed, inefficient "alternative power" at a time when they weren't economically feasible at outrageous rates ... so to keep that camp quiet because the power companies found it much cheaper to roll their own and ditch the 20 cent a kilowatt duckpoo powered plants, the politicos decided to keep the kooks quiet by getting the power companies out of the generating business entirely so they could point at the now closed kook-plants and say, "well, they COULD sell power if anyone was willing to pay for it" ... believe it or not, those were the arguments at NYPSC that lead to all this ... I was there at the time.
That person sent yet another whiney letter to the Ontario government complaining about how all five (count them - there are less than half a dozen) coal burning power plants in Ontario are ruining the air in New York. This letter came after two reasonably significant events, first the Bush announcement to withdraw from Kyoto (Pataki has got no credibility when writng letters like that after this happend), and second, after an order forcing one of the five plants to convert to natural gas by 2004 at the latest was handed down by the Ontario government.
Meanwhile, if Bush doesn't get moving on the soft wood lumber dispute, PEI potatoes and a few other things, the tax hike on energy exports is ready to go this summer.
-Robert King
Funny ... the prevailing winds in upstate New York largely come from Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania and generally out of the southwest ... true, the occasional cold front will sweep in some winds however briefly out of Ontario but the really big polluters are in strongholds held by members of Paturkey's own party. Whoops. Scratch that then.
And yeah, the very first action by our young shrub was to thumb his nose at Canada in many many ways ... I'm just glad the border's still open since I go far more often to Montreal than NYC (Montreal's closer) and sure wouldn't want to be turned back at the border one of these days. I'd have to defect. :)
But yes, I sit here in amazement that in a few short months, fearless leader has pretty much cheesed off the entire planet. And I wouldn't blame Canada one bit if they've had enough. We're not all that happy ourselves. And of course, you know the game is to sell nat gas to Canada even though you guys have plenty of your own. Also got a kick out of this new pipeline he's proposing that would not only bypass Canada, but would in effect eliminate the need for the one that's there now. Alas, this is headed too far off the tracks for this board but I hear ya ...
Take a look at these articles; they are interesting reading.
Pataki Article
Bush Article
Heh. While I agree with Pataki that we all need to work something out that would lessen pollution, it seems obvious that the 2x4 will need to give way to a concrete railroad tie ... and one would think that both of our countries would just realize that we need each other and get past the silliness here. And we need your country's assistance more than yours needs ours. Interesting reading indeed. I wish folks to the south could watch CBC a bit more often though "NewsWorld International" is starting to show up on some cable systems - it might even be available down in NYC and DC.
I don't want to push the patience of folks here much further by going on and on about this, but suffice it to say you're absolutely right and we're absolutely wrong and let's hope that the Canadien politeness doesn't have to be stepped on in dealing with idjits. :)
Ok...
But now that you've mentioned concrete railroad ties, have they been tried out on the subway in New York?
Some sections of the subway here have concrete railroad ties, and others have typical wooden ones. I've found that the ride on sections with the concrete ties has a much harsher quality than the ride on sections with traditional wooden ties. A few years ago I got to speak with a CN person inspecing track on a curve on the CN line that runs through Jasper National Park in Alberta, and he told me that they were replacing the ties on curves with concrete ones as they hold guage better than wooden ties, so there is at least one advantage under some circumstances that concrete ties hold over wooden ones.
Does anybody else find that subway trains ride quality becomes somewhat more harsh on sections of track where concrete ties have been used compared to those that have traditional wooden ties?
-Robert King
As far as I know, NYC still doesn't do cement ties anywhere. There's "half ties" of wood embedded in conrete (mostly underground) to provide a gully for water to run down but as far as I know, NYC hasn't been treated to cement ties anywhere.
Still true?
On the LIRR Main line between Jamaica and Woodside those concrete ties are noisy, compared to riding on the wooden ones. I imagine the noise within the confines of a subway tunnel would be quite loud.
NYCT doesn't use concrete ties. There were some sections of
subway such as Archer Avenue constructed with direct fixation
in which the rails are anchored to rubber and steel pads which
are in turn bolted down to concrete. Overall, type I construction
with wood ties in ballast gives the best ride quality, IMHO.
Concrete ties are very heavy and can not be spot-changed by hand.
However, they will last for 50 years assuming that the subgrade
is firm and the drainage is good.
They are also impervious to rot, fire and infestation, although creosote treated wooden ties are unpalatable to insects as well. The main incentive for concrete ties is economics - they last longer than wooden ones and hold rail better, which makes them safer than wood. The bean counters will look for ways to preserve that all important bottom line, come hell or high water.
Denver's light rail line uses concrete ties and welded rail - and lots of ballast on the private ROW. Wooden ties are used only at crossover switches. It all adds up to a smooth, quiet ride. You can't tell your train is doing 55.
Well 10 other plants around the city have been given the go-ahead by another judge.
It is important all these plants get build, and that NIMBY judge corrected (she probably lives in Sea Cliff!).
The easy answer is to build the plants. The importance of a reliable electric supply should be way more important than how a few small neighborhoods feel about it.
If they don't build the plants, this is what should be done:
Everyone here who lives in NYC should waste as much energy as possible. Turn on all the lights, use 100+ Watt bulbs, put the A/C, a space heater, the electric stove, and toster oven on as well as leave the windows open. Turn all the fans on. Leave computers and TVs on all night and all day. If a temporary outage hits your area, have a backup generator to keep the fridge, the A/C, and battery chargers going so you can weather the effects. Power back on, turn everything back on and repeat. PISS OFF AS MANY CITY RESIDENTS AS POSSIBLE! Rioting would break out in Long Island City (by now the public knows LIC residents as the cause, media would ensure that), and the NIMBYs will "see the light."
If this sounds weird please note I post this at 1:20 in the morning...
We're already planning to buy a diesel generator and install it in the backyard (my idea). The house wiring is set up for this.
The main thing is the generators to be used are temporary, and considering their design, based on jet engine turbines, wouldn't be economically practical to maintain as long-term generators even if the NYS Power Authority wanted to do so.
The permanent generating plants are scheduled to be on-line in a few years (barring more NIMBYism), and the temp units going in are a needed precaution against the chance that a heat wave might nail the city in July and leave it in the same boat California has been in for the last nine months.
The NIMBY judge is probably one of those people who thinks the faceless people he has no contact with who live in some other part of the state, another state or Canada should bear the brunt of having a temporary or permanent power plant built in their back yard while the electricity goes to NYC. Or he's even more clueless and thinks electricity simply grows on trees or is created by the magical power faries who live up where the Northern Lights come from and fill the transmission lines with kilowatts through their magic power wands.
Amen ... and these ARE proposed to be temporary ... a judge could enforce that too later on down the road ...
Just to make matters worse:
Jean Cretien and much of the federal government are getting fed up with George Bush. Exhorbitant tax hikes (around 80% or so) may be implemented on ALL (electricity, natural gas, oil products etc.) energy exports to the United States this summer unless Mr. Bush starts acting reasonably with respect to a number of issues on the table for discussion very soon. An 80% tax on all energy exports to the United States would definately make itself felt in New York, California etc. and contribute to energy shortages that already exist.
Enjoy!
-Robert King
Considering the upcoming battle in Congress over drilling in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge and on other federal lands Clinton declared off-limits in the past five years, Bush couldn't ask for a better gift from Jean Cretien and the Canadian government than to jack up the cost of energy like that, which would validate his claim that the U.S. needs to do more domestic oil and gas drilling.
It's amazing what gas prices above $2 a gallon and rolling blackouts will do to the average American's mindset -- it might even convince some New York NIMBYs the city needs a few of those emergency power generators.
On the positive side, an 80 percent spike in energy costs will boost overall support for mass transit investment, since a lot of people will find filling up their SUVs to be prohibatively expensive ... just so long as they'r not riding the Lex when the rolling blackout hits.
I'm in Montreal for the weekend. I made one mistake, and that was running out of gas on the Canadian side. Gas costs CDN$.799/l. My car took 50l, CDN$39.95, which equates to 13g, $25.54. That's $1.96/g Guess how many SUVs we say on the road up here?
Most people seem to drive a Ford Taurus or smaller, and there are actually Mazda Protege and VW Jetta being used as taxis.
-Hank
Yep ... and being a regular up there myself, you'll find that the car runs a LOT nicer on REAL gasoline, not the monkeyed around with crap they pump into your car down here ... we drive a Saturn and the difference was QUITE noticeable on the first tankup ... wish we could bring some back with us. :)
Article in Saturday's Daily News states that Brooklyn Supreme Court Justice Lawrence Knipel ruled against the NIMBYs, that the turbines can be built.
It is unfortunate that the sites chosen tend to be in minority communities (I went and took a look at it again) - but that does tend to be where existing electric distribution infrastructure tends to be no doubt because minorities live in older communities where these were originally built. There's nothing I'd enjoy more personally than seeing 5 or 6 generators blocking Sutton Place or Riverdale Avenue but that's a personal "eat the rich" kinda thing to me.
Any way you slice the sausage though, New York City and Nausea county NEED the electrons, even if those things were built on a barge in the rivers ... and even THAT wouldn't be such a bad idea as long as the things get built and wired into the grid before the air conditioners start grinding away. New York City has had a long building crisis of insufficient infrastructure for the electrical demand of a city that the census has just proven has gotten a whole lot bigger in the past ten years with nothing built to support it. Viz Washington Heights and their situation. But that's not all - the city also needs a whole lot more in the way of feeder cables dragged in under the streets as well. That was another issue we didn't see getting addressed at the PSC.
Here's hoping that this "temporary measure" is allowed to happen for now and that the outrage provokes city planners to do what it is they were hired to do. NYC is a mess right now as far as electric supply and distribution and it's going to need a whole lot more work. And lest folks be getting a bit miffed, these are PASNY generators. Guess who supplies electrons to the subways as their first priority?
According to the Video crews from Transit Transit at the 370 jay street building, the Rodeo is saturday. They are meeting at 8, so I say its safe to arrive a little late to the rodeo. I will be there wearing my F Train shirt. Well hope to see some there!
Today, While waiting for a Queens bound G at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, A Smith-9th Bound G train pulled in. I noticed it stopped at the 10 car marker. Musta overshot the 8 car marker I said to myself. Then, I noticed that the southern unit of the train was 4 cars, and not 2. All 6 car G trains have their 2 car unit at the Southern end and the 4 car unit on the northern end. Finally, after I expected to see a 2 car unit trailing the 4 car unit, I saw another 4 car unit! That means there was an 8 car R-46 train on the G!!
I also ride the A every day. Recently, I have seen at least a partial train made up of R-32's. Monday had 4 R-32's mixed with 6 R-38's. And Tuesday, Wednesday and Today, I saw a full R-32 train! Are they assigning R-32's to the A now? Or are smoe R-44's needing repairs.
Also, they are now mixing R-32's and 38's, much like the 40m and 42 units, on the C line. This is puzzling me, As they've never done this before.
P.S.- Please DO NOT respond saying that the R-32's I saw were the R-32GE units. I already know that GE units are considered R-38's, and are run with the 38's. I also know the visible differences. Thanking you in advamce.
P.S.S.- where did 3348 get that number plate from?!?!?! it's grotesque!!
I believe two number plates were made somewhere, and the others bearing the number in the older IND font are stickers covering the car's original number, 3659. Why didn't they put those stickers on all four number plates is beyond me.
>>P.S.S.- where did 3348 get that number plate from?!?!?! it's grotesque!!
3348 is not the original number. It was mated to an even-numbered car which was wrecked, so it had a sex change operation, and was renumbered just outside of R32 sequence. So be nice.
I've been seeing solid R-32 trains on the A too. Especially since we were running up and down the A the bulk of the week. I wondered if I was seeing the same train over and over, but yesterday, I did see at least two like this in the same trip, and one in the yard. Before they usually only appeared mixed with 38's (They've been doing this for a few years, actually) I guess they've decided that the equipment is interchangeable.
On a fantrip, a motorman, who was out for fun, told me of a story of when they were cutting C train consists non-rush to 4 cars, and the hassle it was to match R32's and R38's with their own kind. The policy was then to not mix them, and the road or yard crews would get written up if they did. They would generally leave which ever car type that was in the minority as 8 cars.
"That means there was an 8 car R-46 train on the G!!"
Operating procedures for the G call for 6-car R-46 consists. When the two car units are not available, the G line calls for (full length) 10 car R-32 trains or 8 car R-46 trans.
"Are they assigning R-32's to the A now?"
The A train comes out of Pitkin Yard or 207th yard. Pitkin yard has R-32 Phase I cars assigned to it. They may run in A or C service as the Yard Dispatcher sees fit.
I have seen R-32s mixed with R-38s and I think I did see them recently on the "C" train. It is news to me that a full train of R-32s were running on the "A". It is possible that the set of R-32s that you saw on the "A" train are normally reserved for the "C" train. It is also news to me that they are running 8 car trains on the "G" train when normally you see 6 car trains.
BMTJeff
I saw a 10 car R-32 G the other day. Scared the hell out of me. I wanted to ride it to Brooklyn (caught it at Continental) but had no time, was due home.
Dan
I have seen and ridden on mixed R-32/38 consists on the A. It's not that uncommon. At least they blend together stylistically.
Article about the closing of the candy store in Stillwell Terminal.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe in the meantime Philip's could be temporarily located elsewhere in Coney Island while they redo the Stillwell Avenue terminal. I'm glad that the T/A will let him have a space within Stillwell Avenue Terminal when it is completed in 2005 and then he'll have a space that is even better than the one he had.
It seems as though a new Coney Island will rise from the rubble of the old.
BMTJeff
FOLLOW UP STORY about dragging on D train earlier this week.
Peace,
ANDEE
What is the threshold at which the train's brakes lock? If I recall correctly, the T/O isn't supposed to be able to move the train unless the passenger doors are closed.
There is no brake interlock on the trains. The train can roll even with the doors open. All the system dose is to take the power off the masster controler. If you try to take power with door open the train won't speed up with moters, all it will do is roll if the brakes are released. This happen to me one day in school car. We had the crew at the C/R position open so we see if everone was on board the train. The T/O got the sigal to leave the termal so he released the brakes and tryed to take power, but all the train did was roll. I was in the middle and pulled the cord to stop the train from rolling away out of control. I did not know that the T/O did this untill later when I spoke the my Teacher.
Robert
Interesting. Back in the old days, you could power with the doors open by simply cutting them out. The R1/9's and 10's could do it easily though you wanted to be closed up if you went anywhere near a live platform since well ... geese will toy with Darwin if you let 'em. :)
>>>Back in the old days, you could power with the doors open by simply cutting them out.<<<
Sorry Selkirk, but I'm a little confused. Could you elaborate further?
Never did it myself, but I've seen trains run with the doors open so obviously there must have been (on the cars that I knew) a cutout that would clear the relay and allow the controller to be wrapped with the doors open. Saw it done on layups ... and when I asked how they ran them, was told, "you just cut out the doors and she goes" ...
Yeah, you hit the bypass button and it overrides the safety feature.
You do realize now that no train on a layup is safe tonight. Fortunately, I ain't got busfare to the city. :)
The R1-9 cars were never equipped with side door bypass interlocking function. R10s were the first but I think what you mean are the "snap switches", which allowed for the door panel/s to be cut out of the circuit regardless of panel positioning. Because the R10s had a 4 to 5 step procedure of cutting the doors out with three different devices to manipulate, it was possible to have both motormen's and conductor's indication AND an open door. The steps for a typical R10 cutout are as follows:
1) Identify. Because the R10 didn't have fault lights, you had to listen for the variable load valve upon beefing doors or toying with snap switches, unless there was an obviously open panel. Details of the snap switch later.
2) The cutout. Typical for an open door, slow door engine or confirmed fault would be to a 3 step procedure being to close the panel, confirm closure by stepping on the teetering arm device linkage extending the door to the fully closed position and listening for the load valve noise, or checking the finger positions of the signal light relay, a three fingered contactor panel I believe was on the number two end of the car used to pass the indication loops trainline. Next, the door engine cutout cock would be placed to position the handle across the air pipe, therefore cutting flow to the magnet valves. Finally, the gravity latches were placed to block the door from sliding open in case of failure of the teetering arms.
Now for the dangerous snap switches. Newer cars allow for a key to de-energize the power for a panel, manually block a door from freewheeling and cut out the panel from the 24 circuit. Because the R10 was pneumatic in operation of its doors, the snap switch was utilized to block out the panel sensing switches in case of failure. Anyone, or kid could go under a seat and effectively cause a train to run with indication and doors opened. The snap switches were ONLY used when a door could not be cutout. It was a two position unmarked rotary switch which made it easy to lose track of its position. A lot of conductors would rather go O/S than to mess with it if they couldn't get their guard lights out. A reason why a lot of motormen used drum switches to isolate their head cars for defects.
Wowsers ... that brought back old memories like the kiss at the end of a hot wet fist ... thanks for the jog ... I never pulled duty on R10's but I sure did ride them a lot. I was consigned to R1/9's and the occasional 32 ... I know there was a door control switch behind me on the R1/9's but that wasn't the trick and I never had a situation where I had to move a train with the doors open, but I saw it done here and there in the yards and when they were moved off layup where the doors had been left open for an airing out overnight and guys would just get in and roll with the doors still open. Of course by the time they got out to where I was, they'd been closed up. I remember being taught the procedure but I never had to do it as far as that mode of operation went and it's been 30 years for me.
I sure did spend quite a bit of time on the road fumbling with the door mechanisms though when indication was not going to happen and there wasn't an RCI handy ... that would happen almost every trip somewhere on the train. And you'd hear the door leaking air, whistling at ya to come and bow before the valve. But what I was thinking of didn't involve having to go car to car, this was a bypass in the active cab that would let you power up with the doors still open for yard moves and so forth.
Must be alzheimer's setting in. :)
There's no side door bypass on R1-9 because there is no
interlock with the m/m indication. The R10s were the first
cars to have that feature.
If I remember correctly, if the doors weren't closed, there was a BIE trip and it was that which had to be "cut out" to roll with the doors open. You couldn't just wrap it and go. I know in the newer trains, it took a lot more effort and power wasn't available unless the doors were cutout. But in the old cars, if they weren't closed up, they'd dump. At least that's the way I remember it.
But not having to ever operate that way, I completely forgot what the trick was that we were shown in the blur known as school car. So many things dropped into one's wittle mind, so little retained unless you actually NEEDED to remember it. Good thing that as you get older, it's the mind that goes first and not a vital organ. :)
The investigation is continuing. Since it has been made public in the media, I can state that the train and the doors all operated as designed. The media article (from the link) is almost correct for a change. The person need not be caught in the doors for the incident to be classified as a "DRAG".
Thursday morning an eastbound Amtrak train (probably Clocker 624) passed through Frankford Jct at 6:44 with HHP-8 #659 hauling 14 cars, including 3 MARC coaches.
About 30 minutes later, an AEM-7 (didn’t catch the number) pulled 10 cars eastbound (maybe Clocker 628), including 4 MARCs.
Let me guess at one of those trains:
A heritage (#130) followed by 2 Marc IIs? Saw it leave NYP at around 5:42 or so. A few people (NJT riders) were perplexed as to what the train was. I was asked 6 times if it was the clocker by 5 different people.
The center span of the bridge over Rancocas Creek was prefabricated on a barge to be floated into place next week. A beam gave way and the span, still bolted to the barge, toppled onto a crane on the Riverside bridge approach as the crane operator jumped to safety. Five workers went into the water (small workforce because it was lunch break); there were no serious injuries.
Story reported in Friday's Trenton Times and Philadelphia Inquirer.
The print edition of the Inkie has excellent photos, but they're apparently not available online.
There is a good pic online. Hey, do you know if that bridge is movable like the old one? BTW, what happened to the old one. I heard that they were trying to save it.
And apparently Adtranz is still part of the consortium. I thought Bombardier took over Adtranz.
It may have been sold by Daimler-Chrysler, but a recent article in the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum's TROLLEY FARE mentioned a "partnership" of sorts between Adtranz and CAF-USA. Apparently the Elmira, NY facility is either CAF-USA or Adtranz or both. If somebody has some definitive news on the subject, please post it.
I thought Alstom now runs the Elmira facility. I didn't even know CAF had a U.S. factory.
BTW, does anybody what type of Adtranz DMU will be used on Trenton-Camden?
Alstom is in Hornell. Adtranz is in Elmira. they also supply AC traction motors for Kawasaki up in elmira. they have a partnership with CAF-USA,but it(Adtranz) is now under bombardier.
adtranz is a different company but g&e and adtranz manufature the blue tiger locomotive
By the way If Bombardier and adtranz merge than they shoud be refered as B.A.T(Bombardier-Adtranz-transportation).
Well, Adtranz is a railcar manufacturer that usually builds inferior subway and light rail cars, and is usually late in deliveries. If planning on ordering new subway and light rail equipment, don't order anything from Adtranz.
The bridge problem will probably delay the projected July 1 opening of the bridge for railroad traffic, but shouldn't delay the projected Januart 2003 opening of the SNJLRS.
Stories in Saturday's Courier-Post and Inquirer.
Another photo is online, courtesy of Dividing Creek.
Work on the bridge is on hiatus as OSHA investigates; meanwhile, NJT tries to figure out what to do. Story in Tuesday's Trenton Times.
How's the transfer between A and 1 on 168th Street? Where on the A train should one be to be closest to the transfer?
Arti
The middle of the train. You have to walk down a passageway to an elevator bank anyway.
Thanks!
Arti
Look for the newsstand. Near the newsstand there is a police booth. Behind the police booth is a passageway leading to the elevators to the IRT.
While you're in the elevator, look up above the door at the floor indicators. There you will see an etched, backlit (1) and (9) for one destination, and an (A) and (B) for the other. One of these trains no longer stops there! I suppose no one ever thought it would be cut back to 145th St. and replaced with the (C) when "(B)" was etched into the metal.
[Actually, the last time I was there was last fall, so this may have been changed by now. At the time I was there, however, it still said "(B)".]
It still says B. Also- I finally found evidence of old dobule decker elevators at the IRT level. Look at the Uptown side, the North overpass is cut into the sidewall. Look above the landing and you'll see scissor gates.
Thx. Next time I'm up there, I'll look. I didn't know there ever were double decker elevators.
If everybody would be so kind as to get out their copy of "The Map" and look on the subway side. If you look to the west of Manhattan or Staten Island you will see...NOTHING, ZIP, A FREAKING GIANT OCEAN. Those jerks at the MTA have seen it fit to ELIMINATE NEW JERSEY from the most important side of "The Map". It's not like there isn't room for New Jersey, those arrogent bastards just replaced out great state with WATER. SI is just floating out there like Maui or something and the PATH lines just head off the left side of the map and into the void. New Jerseyites are people too and our hallowed land mass DESERVES cameo placement on the west side of "The Map". I hope that NYC get's blasted by some giant wave so we can fill in the right side of the PATH map with blue paint.
Easy there, tough guy!
New Jersey does appear on the commuter railroad side.
Remember that the subway map that pre-dated "The Map" had only the four boroughs on it. New Jersey was barely visible on the left side, because that was where the map ended.
Today's semi-comprehensive MTA map shoehorns Staten Island in, and it's so hopelessly out of scale it looks ridiculous. In reality, Staten Island is nearly as big as Brooklyn but here it looks like it's smaller than Manhattan. I presume New Jersey was eliminated because there was no way to show it with any degree of accuracy with Staten Island flopping arround like that. The subway and SIR don't operate in Jersey anyway.
Perhaps they should have made Staten Island an inset, or included it on the commuter rail side.
:-) Andrew
Oh! And Staten Island isn't only out of scale, but way out of place too! Here it's shown to be just south of Manhattan, and bordering a large part of Brooklyn. No way to fit Hudson County in there!
:-) Andrew
In reality, Staten Island is nearly as big as Brooklyn
In reality Staten Island is bigger than Brooklyn.
And the 1967-78 map was worse. Half the width of the map was occupied by the smallest borough, the one that's shaped like a bacteria.
That was one ugly map! Not to mention cluttered and confusing.
:-) Andrew
Make a map of NJ and don't show the west side of Manhattan or something. It doesn't matter. How many people riding or reading the subways care if the map "properly" all areas surrounding the city. It's a map of the subways, not the map of NYC. The map is not to scale and as stated before SI is not even close to being geographically correct on the map.
So just chill and remember that it's a map of the NYC subways, not a road map that you get at gas stations and stuff.
=)
It's an accurate representation of New Yorkers' view of the world.
Could be worse...the map could read "Terra Incognita Occidentalis" or "Here Be Dragons" in the space where New Jeresy would be.
But SEPTA shows all of the New Jersey PATCO stations on its map!
Mark
Could be worse...the map could read "Terra Incognita Occidentalis" or "Here Be Dragons" in the space where New Jeresy would be.
Actually I think that would have been a step up (as well as pretty cool) because it would validate the fact that something existed off the west side of map instead of a featureless sea.
the map could read ... "Here Be Dragons"
Actually, that's an accurate representation of New Jersey, isn't it? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually what bothers me is that the commuter rail side does not include the other NJT operated rail lines in NJ. Only the MNRR subsidized ones appear. It is not truly a comprehensive regional map as it claims to be... I can forgive NJ not appearing on the subway side since the subway doesn't go there.
PATH goes there. Commuter ferries go there. PATH and commuter ferries are systems that feed into the subways. Showing how to connect your Subway trip to an important New Jersey destination (Hoboken Terminal, JSQ, Newark, EWK, NWP, etc) would go a great way to providing more of a wholistic transit view.
Wel the concept of the map is anything run by the MAT. NJ Transit isn't under the MTA banner, except for the two lines it runs for Metro-North, so it's not shown.
Does NJ Transit have a current rail map? I saw one in Penn Sta NYC which included the two Metro-North lines.
:-) Andrew
...but that's no reason we can't have a more comprehensive regional map, in addition to the MTA's. It could show all commuter rail, plus PATH, and maybe (because of space constraints) a smaller or less detailed subway and SIR map. Maybe the Port Authority could put something together.
:-) Andrew
NJTransit has poster-type maps only for stations, trains, and bulletin boards and stuff. Oddly only the Comet IIIs and IVs, as well as the Arrow IIIs have them. Stuff that doesn't go into NY has the old map still. There's one Comet II which has the very first NJT Map on it, showing several Main Line, Boonton Line, and M & E lines stations that no longer exist.
The handout version of NJT's map is a photocopied version of the map from just before Hamilton was opened. I am fortunate to have several of the "original" ones of those, with blue text and a watermark.
I have one that has the Morristown and Boonton Lines going only to Netcong, not Hackettstown.
This will change after MTA takes over PATH.
What's this all about? Is MTA really going to absorb PATH?
Mark
(A reference to post 210354 below.)
Please.
Don't be decieved by the word Metropolitan in the name MTA.
It'll require action by both NJ and NY legislature for any expansion of MTA services into NJ. Won't ever happen while the Port Authority has anything to say about it.
Staten island is a commuter rail system in Staten Island. It is not a part of the nycsubway system.
It is called the NEW YORK CITY Subway.
That's because we know NJ is there because OF THE STINK that emanates from tht area.....
Peace
ANDEE
That's because we know NJ is there because OF THE STINK that emanates from that area.....
And just whom are you referring to?
That reminds me of a joke:
One day two lovers were getting really hot & heavy in the back seat of a car.
Lustfully, the woman says to the man "Ohhhhh Baby, I want you to lick me where it stinks"!!!
So he took her to New Jersey.
lol
Rim shot! Or should that be a double rim shot?:-)
That's cause NJ doesn't matter what with all it's stinky refinerys and what not
Peace
ANDEE
Kinda makes you wonder where they got the nickname "The Garden State." :)
When my job moved from Radnor to Monmouth Junction in 1987, all the out-of-staters complained about Jersey being nothing but farms.
I lived there for 14 miserable years. We always reffered to it as the GARBAGE state.
Peace,
ANDEE
The only way that I'd live in New Jersey is if you gave me a free house or co-op. I couldn't fathom living there otherwise.
I don't know why you feel that way. NJ is a great place to live. We get most of the benifits of living in a big city w/o the crime, grime or cost.
The commute though is a killer. Unless you're fortunate enough to live near a NJT rail line or a PATH station, you have to deal with the dreaded PA Tunnels & Bridges. 30 minute waits at the toll plazas aren't uncommon.
That and I just can't stand the joint. I'll stay in Queens where my commute consists of a 15 minute walk.
E-Z Pass eliminates wait at toll plaza. Im glad that there is a hike and that there is now EVEN MORE of a reason to get an E-Z Pass. Hopefully now people will get moving.
E-Z Pass eliminates wait at toll plaza.
That depends. I hardly ever drive into the City but I've observed the EZ-Pass lanes on the GSP and often they're slower than the token/exact change lanes. Plus you have to fight the tickets that the system regularly issues because it misreads the pass. (I don't have one and won't for that reason, among others.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You get NONE of the benefits of living in the civilized world by living in the fungus that surrounds American cities.
Y'know, I've been a cityite and a suburbanite, and I really believe it's possible for both types to get along, but that's no way to do it! People live in the suburbs, and many of the folk in the distant suburbs of New York are more cosmopolitan than those living in the center of some cities. In fact, you can be completely provincial living right in the heart of Manhattan. Some people are. So let's all get along, OK.
:-) Andrew
I'm not dissing most people who live in suburbs, I'm just dissing the suburbs themselves. And I don't care about city-suburban relationships. The suburbs will only be good once the city is attacked with a reverse-atom bomb (damage becomes greater as you LEAVE ground zero).
I'm not dissing most people who live in suburbs, I'm just dissing the suburbs themselves. And I don't care about city-suburban relationships. The suburbs will only be good once the city is attacked with a reverse-atom bomb (damage becomes greater as you LEAVE ground zero).
Just curious ... have you ever lived in a suburb?
I live in what is practically a suburb, though within city limits.
And why does it matter? I've never lived in a poor third-world country, yet I can say with utmost confidence that I would never want to.
OK. But there are genuinely good things about living in both a city and in a suburb. I say there's no reason we can't have both!
:-) Andrew
People live in the suburbs, and many of the folk in the distant
suburbs of New York are more cosmopolitan than those living in the center of some cities. In fact, you can be completely provincial living right in the heart of Manhattan.
Hmmm, that's sort of my line ... as I've been saying for a while, many Manhattanites are hopelessly unsophisticated and provincial, clueless as to what daily life is like for 95% of the nation's population.
Nicely put.
I dunno, zman, with the four stooges we have running for mayor trying to turn back the clock to the Dinkins era, Jersey is looking better and better. I wish I could afford Hoboken...which has its own problems, but I love it every time I'm there.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And aren’t we having a wonderful mudslinging time on a wet Friday afternoon?!
But seriously folks:
Transit maps are stylized. They usually are clearer the more stylized they are. Typically the central area of the city is enlarged several hundred percent, because that’s where the most stations are and where most of the travellers want to go. Look at the London Underground map. The area within the Central line takes up most of the map, yet the distance from Liverpool Street to Epping is about 10 times longer than the middle.
I would also like to see the SIRR and Path integrated into the subway system. I know that the PA will not let Path get into the hands of the MTA, but from a commuter’s point of view it would make sense. The problem here is that NYC is at the extremity of the state and has two state boundaries within its commuter catchment area, so there are lots of juristictional issues that have to be addressed.
What in the name of god will call those people at MTA Jerks. That's the way they made the subway map. And NYC is a VERRY NICE CITY home to a fleet of 2,500 subway cars and 4,500 City and Express buses.
R R-46 #5700
I had the impression it was just breast-beating by the guy who runs the MTA. I read an interview a while back where he essentially said the purpose of the map was to show everyone how big the MTA was. I thought it was funny, myself -- particularly the way the MTA bridges and tunnels are twice as big as the non-MTA ones, and maybe 8 times as big as the City's (evidence that it's not all aimed at NJ). I mean, if the purpose were really to provide directions, you'd give names to the Queensboro or Brooklyn Bridges, wouldn't you? For that matter, why put the bridges on a map that doesn't show roads?
The 8 million New York Cityers are a provincial bunch. If they can't get there on the subway, it may as well not exist. And what about the Brasilians, Germans or Brits on a week-long holiday. Let's not confuse them with some place they'd rather not end up.
I'm a New York Cityer, and I live where there's no subway.
Of course, I believe the city should be dissolved.
>>> If you look to the west of Manhattan or Staten Island you will see...NOTHING, ZIP, <<<
So, what's new?
Tom
Well the map isn't really to any scale, perhaps the "Garden" state is just off the left end of the page.
Just when did they pave over that "Garden," anyway?
;-)
Dave
Philips, the candy store in the Stillwell Avenue terminal, is closing its doors forever next week (Easter Sunday). It was opened in 1931, and is the last tenant in the station.
Read all about it in today's (Friday 4/6) New York Times.
--Mark
"Philips, the candy store in the Stillwell Avenue terminal, is closing its doors forever next week (Easter Sunday). It was opened in 1931, and is the last tenant in the station."
FOREVER ?
I guess they didn't find a place to relocate. If they are still available, they had some souvenir postcards for sale under a buck. Check them out and see if they still have any left. Something we can remember them by. Also on Stillwell off Surf is a little pizza shop that makes a good pie. I guess they are next as well as the corner convience store and the Coppertone sign.
Bill "Newkirk"
Unfortunately, I would expect the rents in the new station to be so "way up there" that about all you'll find there in the new station will be the new "J Peterman's" and perhaps a Sbarro if you're lucky. Probably a disney something too ...
Well, actually, TA management is supposed to be working with the current owner to have a place for him when the station reopens, but the owner is getting up there in years and is unsure about future plans.
--Mark
As I read the article in today's Times I got the impression that what is sold there is a real treat not to be found anywhere else. I am sad that I'll never be able to take a time out from a future subway trip to enjoy some of his delectables. I could so go for a frozen bannana right now.
At least we still have Denny's with their Pistachio and Banana forzen custard. As a child, I remember Coney island had a store with even more flavors of frozen custard. I recall, strawberry among others.
In the article it mentiones that Brooklyn has a new minour league baseball team called the Cyclones. Well I think that the team should have been named the Coney Island Warriors. Ah well, maybe Brooklyn'll get another team. The best way to put a not so bright past behind you is to make light of it. The new Camden team should have been called the Loan Sharks.
Better than the Coney Island Whitefish....
Years ago when the Jersey Devils were a minor league hocky team in Cherry Hill, their big rival was the Long Island Ducks.
Speaking of the River Sharks, their stadium is designed such that all seats have a direct view of the PATCO line coming down the bridge.
Or that the PATCO Line was a direct view of the game. You have to admit that letting anybody on the BFB pedestrian walkway get a VERY GOOD view of the game was not the best way to increase ticket sales.
Au contraire; positioning the field such that PATCO riders can see the game is a good marketing ploy.
The one thing that has been a source of joy for me in the midst of my Sea Beach getting continually shafted by the rotten MTA is the fact that Brooklyn has a new ball team, they play in Coney Island, they're called Brooklyn and not New York, and they are called the Cyclones. That is a perfect name for the team. The Cyclone is to me a symbol of Coney Island, my all time favorite ride, and, to me at least, Coney Island will always be special regardless of what it might look like today. Maybe the Cyclones will help revive Coney Island, at least that is my hope. The wonder of it is that here I am three thousand miles away in California and I seem to be more enthused at this turn of events than many of you New Yorkers. Come on guys, this is an important event. It could lead to many positive changes, and one of you guys is going to have to buy for me a Cyclone hat. Oh, yes, I will pay you for it.
I think the team should be called the thunderbolts, considering the stolen land that the stadium is built on...
Peace,
ANDEE
The thunderbolt isn't in Steeplechase where the park was built.
Last week I was in Italy, specifically Rome and Florence. I stayed with a friend who is living there and we used the subway extensively to get around.
The Rome subway is an X configuration. There are two lines (A & B)that intersect at one point (Station Name: Termini). Above termini is the regional / international rail station (also called Termini). So, if you need to xfer to anywhere, you only have to go to one place.
The subways are all OPTO. The "third rail" is a pantograph above the train. There is NO a/c in the trains and it was HOT! The trains or realitively much more crowded than NYC. The trains, even during rush hours are much shorter than the platforms. The key phrase to learn in italian is "Peh-meh-so" (like permit me to get by you) If you don't learn this word, you won't get off at your stop. The trains run VERY fast even around sharp curves and stop very hard.
The trains are covered with Graffiti on the outside but are very clean inside? All the staions are very clean.
The funniest thing is the fare control system, or lack of. You have to buy a ticket:
1) Single ride (good for 90 minutes) cost 1500 lira ($0.75)
2) All day ride, cost 6000 lira ($3.00)
3) Weekly and Monthly, cost unknown)
You can buy a ticket from a booth or from a TVM. I always used the TVMs because they have instructions in english.
Then you have to "validate" you ticket (sticking it in a punch card type thing that stamps the time and date on it). Then, you just walk right into the subway. There aren't really turnstiles. So, the fare control system is based on honesty. Nothing is stopping you from just walking right onto the train without a ticket. However, sometimes police officers will do random spot checks for valid tickets. If you don't have one, it's a $40 fine and possibility of being detained by the police.
I also took the high-speed EUROSTAR train between Rome and Florence. The trains are SOOOOO cool and FAST! It's the same distance between NY and Boston. The EUROSTAR took 1:20. Let's see amtrak do that! Roundtrip, $50.
Rome also has direct train service right into the Airport (Fumicino). It's $16 round trip in brand new tri-levels (very similar to the new LIRR trains).
Here are some pictures:
Cab photo of airport train.Airport terminal. Local train on left, express on right. Cab photo is from right trainInside of a subway car.Subway train arriving at TerminiMe at Hadrian's Villa, hey I had to throw it in.
The distance between Rome and Florence has to be shorter than NY-Boston. I have driven Rome-Florence in 2 hours. Can't do that in NY-Boston.
You're right, I just checked on Mapquest. It's 172 miles. Still, the Eurostar can show amtrak a thing or two.
The ABC Carpet Warehouse Store ad in today's Times gives subway directions. A woman friend asked if it's a safe neighborhood. The directions are 6 train to Whitlock, then walk north on Westchester a block to Bx. River Avenue, then soiuth 2 blocks. By map, this appears to be the equivalent of 4 or 5 Manhattan blocks. Any info?
The area is FINE I would let my own, 80 year old, mother walk thru that area.
Peace,
ANDEE
A station away is where Amadou Diallo lived and died.
I'm not saying that makes the area a horrible, dangerous place, I'm just pointing that out.
That where i get off the Whitlock Station & walk few block to my house. The area is safe & not a danger neigborhood. I know where ABC Carpet Warehouse Store & the closer is Bx5 near Burnker Blvd.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
We're driving down the morning of Palm Sunday the 8th and returning the eve of Tuesday the 10th. We had originally planned to Amtrak down, but it would be difficult taking two subways to Penn Station and coping with the attendant crowds while loaded down with luggage. Don't even broach the subject of NJT and SEPTA to my wife, who has an aversion to changing trains.
I will win a bet she made that it's possible to drive from Queens to Philly without paying a toll. Tricky, but possible. It can't be done the other way without going up by way of Bethlehem, Albany, the 3rd Avenue bridge and the Queensboro Bridge- in that order.
Of course there's all the historical stuff and the Franklin Institute, but I've got additional priorities that we can undertake while the Mrs. is resting. In order:
-MFL: Two railfan windows, long el, breakneck tunnel speed 15th-30th.
-PATCO: Railfan window, view from Franklin Bridge, Jersey suburbs.
-Route 101: In-street and ROW, many grade crossings.
-Route 100: Varied terrain, fast speed around sharp banked curves.
-BSL: Breakneck express tunnels.
-The Galleria: Entire regional rail system available in basement.
It seems like the trolley lines go to some less-than-desirable neighborhoods.
We're staying at the Holiday Inn at Arch and 4th, which seems to be close to Independence Hall and the riverfront. City Hall and Walnut-Locust are a pleasant walk the other way. There's supposed to be the Philadelphia equivalent of the South Street Seaport on the Delaware. Is it worthwhile, or does it slop over with rampant commercialism?
Luckily it's supposed to be sunny and warmer. If there's any time, they say Fairmount Park is very nice and has parking and playgrounds. No point in bothering with the zoo; nothing can hold a candle to the one in the Bronx.
I cautioned my wife not to wear anything with a Mets or Giants logo. Come to think of it, what DON'T Philadelphia sports fans hate? That includes the Iggles, Flyers and Phillies.
If this sojourn proves successful, maybe we'll try Boston or DC next Easter vacation. That would be a real challenge; I've only been to them once each and am not familiar with their transit systems.
Speaking personally of course, I wouldn't miss the SEPTA trolley lines because of fear, at least not traveling in broad daylight.
Until they passed away a few years ago, my mother- and father-in-law lived in the western Philly suburbs. Though my mom-in-law (originally from West Philadelphia) wasn't crazy about the idea, I took my then-5-year-old daughter a couple of times on the Lancaster Avenue (10) line, parking near the end, and going into Center City. Major confrontations with the locals consisted mainly of ladies telling me how adorable my daughter was.
This last summer, I took the same daughter (now 10) to the coin show in the convention center at Reading Terminal (that was a trip in more days than one--walking through the cavernous reception areas which I remembered as the Reading train shed). My daughter insisted on a trolley ride (great kid) and we took a rush hour car on the 13 line to Darby via Yeadon, returning on the less interesting 11 line.
The 13 is not to be missed! Though I would prefer to take it at hours when it's through-routed on the former 62 line to Darby. Twists and turns, curved trackage next to parkland, sharp turns on one-way streets coming into Darby. This line probably goes through some of the grittiest areas through which trolleys still run, but my kid and I didn't get off, except to transfer at Mt. Moriah Loop for another car just behind. The motorman (actually woman) would have made the old Brighton Express operators jealous ... she ran that Japanese import for all it was worth.
Of course I'll feel terrible if you ride the trolleys on the very day when a roving band of huns invades and burns the line to the ground, but, OTOH, if luck is with you it's a great ride.
I found that although the trolleys run "through" some blight, they are safe to ride and even to walk along the street during the day.
The end of the 10 line is in a very elegant neighbourhood and the part of the 13 on Cobbs Creek is not to be missed.
As mentioned the part of the 13 route between Darby and Yeadon is quite unique. This is only used by cars coming in or out of service from the 13 to Elmwood Depot or vice versa.
The area around Penn / 40th street portal is also quite active and has many nice homes to gaze at.
As mentioned the part of the 13 route between Darby and Yeadon is quite unique
I'm not sure what you mean by this. There is passenger service, if somewhat irregular, on what used to be the Darby Shuttle. Could you explain a little more?
Some #13 cars run all the way to Darby instead of terminating at "Yeadon" , but I believe only on weekdays! Thus, the trackage is indeed still "revenue", not just for pull-ins & pull-outs. The ride on the 13 is pretty neat. There are many twists and turns in S.W.
Philly. I was on a car when another passed us on a turn and I swear
the side mirrors of each car almost touched each other. I think our motorman and the the motorwomen (on the other car) were playing games because after we cleaed, he slid hia window open to chat with her.
Chuck Greene
According to a SEPTA trolley operator, the only time the Yeadon / Darby trackage is used is for 13 cars heading to / from the depot.
If you look at the printed time table, this is reinforced. The 13 cars that go past Yeadon to Darby, do not make return trips - they head for Elmwood. It is not even possible for route 13 cars to go to Darby loop and return to Yeadon anymore. Some of the track and the wire that was used by the 62 cars has been removed and the cars can now only procede past the loop towards the carhouse.
The cars are in revenue service though. They pull out of Elmwood Depot at Island Ave and Elmwood, go along Elmwood to Woodland, Woodland to 9th street (by Darby loop) and up to Chester Ave. The reverse trip is similar except 10th is used instead of 9th.
Check out my Yeadon / Darby page for more info and a few pictures
Thanks for the clarification. I did not realize that the turn
around tracks were gone, so you are correct in saying that the cars are really heading to and from the depot.
Do any cars run to/from Darby on weekends in the schedule, or do they just deadhead them in from Yeadon?
Chuck Greene
All the runs in and out of Elmwood seem to have made it on the schedule, so there's service on the weekends and even a few trips after midnight.
The former 62 tracks used to turn off Main street and into Darby loop, accross the platform from the 11s (and facing the opposite direction). The track is still there for the turn, but some of the wire has been removed. The cars then left the loop heading straight on to a very short, L shaped grass ravine, before turning on to 10th for the trip to Yeadon. The ravine part is now fenced off and some of the track covered over.
I am suprised the neighbours didn't fight to keep regular service there. Say route every 13 car to Darby. As it is now, they have trolleys passing their homes and making noise while they are trying to sleep, without the benefit of regular service. For instance there is only one inbound trip in the four hours between 8:01 am and 12:34 on weekdays.
The arrangement on the former Darby Shuttle is very weird to me. Both PTC and SEPTA are famous for keeping extensive non-revenue track for special moves and possible reroutes, and here they have a situation where a rte. 13 car could not turn at Darby and return via its own line.
I noticed the track anamoly when I was in Derby last summer with my daughter, wondering how the 13 car got back to Yeadon--now I know, it can't! Was there some physical reason they made this change?
However, is there any reason why they couldn't regularize service by operating a loop where some cars could go outbound on rte 13 and inbound on rte 11 and vice versa?
If SEPTA had wanted to keep service between Yeadon and Darby and incorporate it into the subway surface routes, it would have been easier to just extend some trips on the 13 to Darby, rather than interlining it with the 11. Even now, all they would have to do is put a east to north switch at Darby and Main.
I guess the fact is that SEPTA is not interested in regular service between Yeadon and Darby. Not many trips I guess.
Having the Yeadon / Darby trackage saves them from going up to 49th on Elmwood and then up to Chester on non revenue tracks to join the 13 mid route. This was the route that was used when there was a problem somewhere between Elmwood carhouse and Darby loop one day.
The former Route 62 trackage is missing a connection through Darby Loop that used to go 'backwards' (i.e. against the flow). It came in off Main St/Lansdowne Ave, went through the loop just to the west (left as you face the front of an 11 car) of the 11's loading area, then disappeared into a wooded area for about 200' before exiting onto 9th St. When 62 quit this trackage was retained for certain 13 trips (this was before Elmwood, when all service came out of Woodland)and it was only then a peak-hour extension. There was no connection in Main St/Lansdowne Ave between 13 and 11, although there was a connection in 9th St between 11 and 13 (62).
The connecting track went out of service in the early 80's, shortly after Elmwood opened, as (I believe) there were some clearance issues with the K cars (much the same that resulted in the 'no clearance' curves mentioned in a previous post). Since the primary purpose of the old 62 line was for pull-outs/put-ins to/from Elmwood, the connection was no longer needed. If you look at 13's schedule today you can easily see run change-outs, etc since many of them run via Darby. And, just as interesting, the 13's from/to Elmwood operate in service on Woodland/Main, holding the old tradition of 'depot' cars in Phila transit history. (The tracklesses which pull in/pull out on all lines except 66 are similarly technically in service between depot and connection to each line.)
I've had my kids to both the Philadelphia and Bronx zoos and like both. I think your kids (you imply you're going with kids) might enjoy the Philly Zoo more than Fairmount Park. The Philly and Bronx Zoos are different. The Philly Zoo has the advantage of being more compact, so there's more to see with less walking. Also, though it's not as nice for the animals than the new, more-natural-habitat orientation of the Bronx Zoo, the animals are more accessible in Philadelphia. Very nice exhibits.
You could just as well say "Don't bother with the Philadelphia subway, it doesn't hold a candle to the one in New York." ;-)
Haven't had much to offer lately so will toss my l958 and 59 Philly memories in: keep 58 brief, much the same except fewer bodies and we only rode the Peter Witt trolleys on Market that year, little did I think they'd be gone shortly after that visit.
The summer 59 trip was myself, sister, mom and grandpa. What more could you want? The IRT High-V's to the REAL Penn Station, GG-1 hauled red steel coaches [P 70 ], The Market-Frankford el still had both types of the original equipments from l907-11 or so and l922;unfortunately we had the radical "Keystone" train returning, with the new low-center of gravity coaches but that is history now too; no matter what cars were on a RR train you could bet on a GG1 for power. The Almond Joys came a year later so was glad I had ridden the original steel heavyweights when I did.
The lady who has salvaged my life from my own foolishness twice was born in Philly shortly after my first visit. Oh well, the hunters are coming, time for the dinosaur to hide! Gets scary when what you called the NEW cars got old and retired.
The Waterfront (Penn's Landing) is not commercial yet, although there are big plans in the works. There are ethnic festivals almost every weekend, but you will probably miss them, if there is anything going on yet. Your hotel is in a very historical neighborhood, adjacent to the yuppified Olde City, which is filled with art galleries, etc. Ben Franklin's grave is literally around the corner. You should also see the National African American Historical Museum, the National Jewish American Museum and the U.S. Mint, all right there. Some of the West Philly trolleys do go through some pretty rough neighborhoods (at least infrastructure-wise), but your chances of being harassed on a trolley are slim to none. If you get a chance, walk along the old Reading tracks (in an open cut) between Ben Franklin Parkway and Reading Terminal parallelling Callowhill St. For a long time I thought it might have been an old canal or something connecting the 2 rivers. For urban history, check out the Atwater Kent Museum at Market and I think 7th (across the street from the house where T. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence). There is also a small SEPTA museum at 1234 Market with a full-size PCC in the basement that kids can enter for pictures and such. Oh, and if that guy with the hammer didn't do too much damage this morning, you might want to see the Liberty Bell.
Well when you go to Boston, don't wear anyting that says Yankees or 76ers on it. Red Sox fans totally despise their Yankees and you don't want to mention the Sixers to a Celtics fan. But Boston is also a good transit city, on par with Philly.
Bethlehem? That's an unnecessary diversion.
Queens to Philly is easy: BQE to Williamsburg Bridge to Holland Tunnel to US 1 to I-95 (to avoid the toll on the US 1 bridge from Trenton).
Philly to Queens does involve going through Albany. Stay on US 1 through New Jersey (there's no toll in that direction). Near the GWB, switch onto the Palisades (there's a piece of the pre-Parkway routing of US 9W at the State Line Lookout, if you're interested in that sort of thing) and take that all the way to its other end, where you can pick up US 9W. (If it's open, NY 218 makes for a scenic diversion.) (Instead of all that, near Newark Airport, you can pick up NJ 21, which has been recently extended to US 46. Take NJ 21 until it ends and follow signs to I-80 east. Then exit to NJ 17 and take that to NY 17 -- the part parallel to the Thruway -- to NY 32.) Take that up to Albany, cross the Hudson, and make your way over to the Taconic via something other than I-90 (which is, in part, the Thruway and will cost you a small toll). Then go down the Taconic to the Sprain to NY 100 to the Thruway to the Deegan (alternatively, the Taconic to the Saw Mill to the Mosholu to the Deegan, but that's a bit slower), cross the University Heights Bridge, and take the Harlem River Drive(way) to the FDR to the Queensboro Bridge.
Just got back to work. Even though I upgraded to AOL 5.0 at home, I can't get into Subtalk- just the "This Website is Busy- Hit Reload or Try Again" message.
Unfortunately, my SEPTA sojourns were limited to two trips on the MFL from 5th Street to Bridge-Pratt and back again- one solo, one with son. We did get to ride a couple of buses to and fro the Parkway museum district.
Next place we go, I'm going to make good and sure neither of us has any relatives in the area, and that it's not around the time of a major religious holiday. We got roped into my great aunt-in-law's second seder at her house in the Northeast (just west of Roosevelt and south of Pennypack) Sunday night AND invited to a cousin's for lunch on Tuesday. This severely cut into our sightseeing time, but what can I say without looking like the ugly husband?
The boy got a kick out of seeing the MFL chugging along next to our car in the middle of I-95 by Spring Garden. Both family members were amazed at how the Gallery Mall seems to run about six blocks underground and has the whole Regional Rail system in the basement. (Last time my wife was down was in 1978 when Reading Terminal was still in service.)
At the front window of the MFL, we got to see the inside of the operator's cab, and it was then that I noticed the M4s are equipped with a video screen of the platform behind. Great for the operator's neck! When we passed over the R7 and NE corridor, an NJT diesel passed by underneath, apparently on its way to Atlantic City. I believe the cutoff is somewhere north of that; there was a railroad running through the stack interchange between 95 and Betsy Ross Bridge.
Whenever I've been down by myself I've used the $5.00 Daypass, but that wouldn't have worked for us. Due to my own carelessness, I bought two tokens at Market East for the bus to the museum but forgot to get two more to go back! This allowed me to excuse myself (Franklin Institute stamps hands) and take a mile round-trip hike to 30th Street to buy more. That Philly humidity is even worse than New York's, if that can be imagined.
On recommendation we ate at the Spaghetti Warehouse on a blighted section of Spring Garden. It featured a trolley car retrofit with dining tables inside. Most of the ads made it clear it ran in San Francisco in the seventies judging from the old MUNI logo and the Fresh Air Fund ad signed by Jimmy Carter.
We did get to see the bell, the mint, Elfreth's Alley, Independence Hall and all the restored buildings. Unfortunately we missed the SEPTA museum. The historical area does seem highly gentrified; a burger and brew at an 'old fashioned' tavern around Locust & 3rd ran me ten bucks!!
I promised Rob that when he's older he and I will take a day trip to Philly and enjoy all the other 'attractions'. Thanks to all those who provided advice on the intracity trolleys.
Great report.I had a great trip to Philly last year. May go this November to ride the trolleys again. Although the system is small there is plenty to ride on and at leats two days is required. As I am typing this I am eating an Almond Joy (chocolate bar) that my daughter brought me back form New York, dose anyone know why a series of subway cars was named after them,
Simon
Swindon UK
these were named after them because of the humps on the top of the car, like the humps on a bar of almond joys.
Thanks for the info. The Almond Joys I have are about 3 inches long and have one almond on the top. Is this a funsize and does the regular size have more almonds ?
Simon
Swindon UK
That's a good time to come, because between Thanksgiving and Christmas, SEPTA may be running its old PCCs on the downtown holiday route, as they did last year. Also, sometimes the regular green line trolleys are decorated for certain holidays. During Christmastime some of the Kawasakis are decorated in tree lights and garland. They do this at Easter and Halloween, too. Last year, one of the electric buses in route 50 got the treatment, too. The fare box was covered in wrapping paper, and it had fake greenery throughout, and the stanchions were wrapped in green and red cellophane.
Mark
Do you mean rt 59? There isn't a route 50, i think.
That's a good time to come, because between Thanksgiving and Christmas, SEPTA may be running its old PCCs on the downtown holiday route, as they did last year. Also, sometimes the regular green line trolleys are decorated for certain holidays. During Christmastime some of the Kawasakis are decorated in tree lights and garland. They do this at Easter and Halloween, too. Last year, one of the electric buses in route 59 got the treatment, too. The fare box was covered in wrapping paper, and it had fake greenery throughout, and the stanchions were wrapped in green and red cellophane.
Mark
I went to New Carrollton to take pictures of Acela Express yesterday. While I was waiting for Acela Express, I found that some Rohr cars on the Orange line had shiny stickers in front of the storm doors.
Because I was curious about it, I purchased a farecard and went to the Orange line platform to see that shiny sticker.
After a close look at that sticker, I found that it was a commemorative sticker. It shows a black-and-white picture of a Rohr car, and the title is, "Classic Rohr Cars: 1976-2001."
I like that sticker very much. Does anybody notice this sticker?
Chaohwa
No but are you joining us April 21? We haven't corresponded in a while.
I am afraid that I cannot come with you because there is a big project due around that time. Sorry about it.
Chaohwa
For the last 2 days my photos have been features as the "Daily Digital Image" at www.eastrailnews.com
Currently my NJT train at South Race interlocking is up and for the two days previous my New Haven picture w/ the AEM-7 and snow encrusted F40 were up.
Hi all,
I want to bring to your attention that there is BVE (Japan Train Simulator freeware software) add-on that you can "drive" R36 train on the Flushing Line between Times Square and Junction Blvd. The route was made by Ernie Altson.
Here's the link (copy & paste, sorry) :o)
http://www.crotrainz.com/DownNY.html
First you'll need to download BVE program (I know it's kinda complex since it's written in Japananse)
Link to that site can be found at http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
Enjoy!
Michael Adler
Ay! Since it's Japanese, I doubt I'll eb able to work it. But the Flushing Line models real look nice.
I was able to install BVE program by following directions.
Indeed. It's a great simulation and ride.
Well done!!!!
Thank Ernie Alston! he's the one who created it. Wait till he create some other NYC Subway routes add-on for Microsoft Train Simulator, will be interesting!
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Your right Michael.
Excellent route. Very detailed and accurate. Thanks for the ride Ernie
Paul
This sim is Great Fun. Im sooo looking forward to his work for MSTS, if its half good as this partial Flushing line is, its promised to be great fun.
Can anyone advise on what Train Simulators are out there and which ones are good to buy. Train Tycoon? Is that any good? Others?
Thanks,
DJ
If you like rapid transit, and I am assuming yo do as you are here, one of the best sims is a Japanese video game available for the Sony Playstation. It is called "Densha de GO!" (alt. Densya de GO!) which is the English transliteration (romaji) of the Japanese title which in "Janglish" means "Go by Train!". It is made by TAITO in Japan only for the Japanese market. You can check out some of the details of this game on this web site under the "Transfer Station" section. Basically, it is a sim game that requires you to pilot an electric commuter train or shinkansen ("bullet train") from point A to point B in a given time and stop the train exactly at the stop signal (teishishingou), which is easier said than done. The graphics, although a bit grainy, are accurate reproductions of the actual locations, and include elevated structure running (Tokyo Yamanote Line and Osaka Kanjyo Sen Line), brief subway running (Nagoya Tetsudouhen) as well as open country runs, some even in the snow! (Akita Shinkansen). If you are really interested in this game, don't let the fact that it is available only for the Japanese market stop you. You can easily modify a USA Playstation, or have this "chip mod" done for you, to play Japanese games, and the game itself is available from importers complete with the special two handle (power mascon and brake) controller here in the states. Don't read or speak Japanese? Although a working knowledge of the language is definately an asset, you can get by without a knowledge of Japanese if you have good game instincts. About the only drawback to the game is the cost, which with the controller, will set you back nearly $100. If you are looking for something unique, this is it. Give it a try. Good luck!
The newer controllers have only one stick for power and brake. A step backwards as far as I'm concerned...
There are multiple editions of Densha de Go, including one for PlayStation 2, and many arcades in Japan have them set up in arcade game form with sturdier controllers. I think I remember playing one that was an old-time streetcar (you had to open the doors and make announcements). I was terrible at it, the little kids in line behind me put me to shame. =)
There are Windows/PC train simulator games I saw on sale in some software stores, but they required Japanese Windows, which I don't have and wasn't going to buy just for this.
If anyone's in Tokyo, the Transportation Museum there has several life-size train cabs running simulations too...
Great shot of the simulator at Akihabara! I know what you mean about those kids! When I visited the museum at Bentenchou in Osaka, the youngsters looked like pros. Tokyo also has a great subway museum under the elevated line at Nishi-Kasai station on the Tozai line. Besides more simulators (5000, 6000 and 8000 Kei Eidan subway cars) there is an interesting computer controlled subway model layout that features four or five of the Eidan lines in a free form model of Tokyo (using custom built Tenshodo brass subway car models). The volunteers there are retired Eidan transit workers, and they are the nicest people to talk with. They are very knowledgeable too, and have great stories to tell of working in the Tokyo subways! Anyone who is planning a trip to Japan for business or other reasons should plan to make this a "must see".
Well, here's some more proof the unions oppose progress in any form. It seems that they don't think that they are stealing enough of the taxpayers money as it is so they are no opposing The T's plan to tell passengers about delays. Story in the Boston Herald
Well, here's some more proof the unions oppose progress in any form. It seems that they don't think that they are stealing enough of the taxpayers money as it is so they are no opposing The T's plan to tell passengers about delays. Story in the Boston Herald
This is a garden variety jurisdictional dispute, and the Union's fears are not necessarily groundless.
There are different ways to deal with this, including having the contractor's employees who do Union work join the Union.
This was in Thursday's Daily News, but since the board was being a little obstinate, I didn't get a chance to post it.
Kalikow talked about merging the MTA with both PATH and the NJ Transit rail systems to create one unified regional rail system, though he does conceede to reality that the politcial hurdles would be tough to get over. But he did say he hoped to have PATH linked up with MetroCard by January 2002.
(Hey, if they do that, it might actually mean New Jersey will `come out of the ocean' on next year's MTA map)
MTA Chief Eyes Running PATH
The MTA hasn't even coordinated MNRR, LIRR and NYCT, and now they want to plunge over the state line?
Why in the world would Joisey want to get involved in MTA politics?
NY is always complaining about how it gets the short end of the stick from the Port Authority. Would NJ allow NY to take over stuff of which NY has said "It benefits Jersey, so it isn't fair"?
In any event, how would it be funded? Can we avoid a taxation-without-representation issue?
And PA and NJT won't be willing to budge an inch on turf, unless NY agrees to pay for the whole thing.
N.J. would obviously want some sort of representation on the MTA board, which Pataki would have to agree with. since the MTA already has a city/suburb/Albany triangulation thing going, adding the N.J. suburbs and the governor's office in Trenton to the mix would really make things complicated.
That WOULD make things a bit easier,more coordinated for us up here on the PJ line........
I went to the Phillies home opener today. The SEPTA round trip transfer available from PATCO at $1.80 saves 50 cents off the cost of 2 tokens, and the transfer machine now takes dollar coins (last year it didn’t, and $1.80 is a lot of quarters). The Broad Street Subway was crowded and nearly everyone on it was going to the game. I arrived in time for the retirement of Del Ennis’ #14, with Jim Bunning presiding. BTW, Bunning’s name is on the #14 emblem on the fence in right-center. The rain started in earnest when Bunning started talking. A half dozen members of the Navy precision parachute team jumped out of a C-130 and landed on their feet on the new turf to deliver the symbolic first ball, which Senator Bunning threw to Robin Roberts, whose #36 is also on the fence.
Since the rain had soaked through my jacket, I was feeling too chilly for a baseball game, so I left after 40 minutes of rain delay and took the BSS local to Walnut-Locust, where I transferred to the express. The railfan seats in both trains were occupied, so I filled the prime railfan standee position. The express really moved, but I couldn’t see the speedometer. I walked the length of the platform at Fern Rock and re-entered the same train. The passenger occupying the railfan seat exited at Olney, so I got it. The trip was liesurely, never exceeding 52 mph. Exiting at City Hall, I took the 13 trolley to 30th Street, then the Market Street Subway to 8th and PATCO back to Lindenwold. The Phillies were losing 2-0 in the top of the second. The rain delay must have been pretty long. I felt my time was well spent.
On Saturday 4/7 I will have about 6 hours to in York to railfan. I am not sure what the best places are but I know that I would like to Ride Redbirds on an outdoor line. Coney island might also be nice as the terminal there will be closing soon. Anyone have any advice on how I can do these things. I will be starting and ending at the Port authority bus terminal. Thanks.
You could follow the route we did last Sunday (with or without the walk through Chinatown). From 42nd/Times Square:
N or R to Canal St. Walk to Grand St.( Or, stay on N into Brooklyn)
At Grand St.: D to Dekalb.
At DeKalb: N to Coney Island
Return: F to Smith/9th (highest station)
G to Court Square
Follow directions to transfer to E/F, but once you get there exit to street and look up for elevated Flushing line.
Take 7 (redbird) towards Flushing to the end of the line if you want. Return on 7 to Times Square or transfer at 74th street to an R through the 63rd St.tunnel.
There was a developing story all day of a boy who said that he escaped from a van in the city after having been kidnapped.
The radio news just reported that, after questioning, the police felt the boy's story had inconsistencies and told him they wanted to check his Student Metrocard, which would have revealed that he spent the day riding the subways. He then admitted that he was afraid of what his father would say or do when he learned his son had been playing hooky, so he made up the kidnap story.
I've heard concerns that the tracing ability of the Metrocard could violate our privacy by giving just such evidence of our movements. However, maybe we could also consdider that a man driving a van matching the boy's description was picked up and questioned all day by the Police.
So in this case, the Metrocard revealed the boy's lie and freed an innocent man.
Anytime you use a MetroCard the place used( a code number such as 1234 or 5678) is entered and the time and date of use.I do not have and would not post a list of what code is which booth or which bus line/direction. Suffice to say each booth has their "own" code so we'd know that"my" booth, Y1(no such booth) is code 7890. In some cases where a station has more than one we **might** have the codes for other booths in our station or complex. Some stations might have the codes for other stations on their street. Ex: 200st on the 20av Line to Nowhere(made up example) night have the codes for 16th ave, 18th av and 22th av in addition to their own code.
The computer screen shows us:
Last place used (the code) and time of last used in addition to balance on the card, number of transfers, rides used(sicne card wass issued), expiration date, etc.
The bottom of the screen also shows us error messages (which I will not post) which guide us in acceptance of the card or issuance of a Business Reply envelope for MetroCard Customer Service. For some codes
which I will not reveal, we must refuse entry and int he case of school cards actually confiscate the card and send to Jay Street.
These codes are used by the station agent to determine if the customer should be allowed free entry if their unlimited card said "Just Used"
For the employee, this can be used to verify sick usage--was the pass used when you called in sick. These records can also prove an employees was at a station when they claimed. The usage is recorded also (if an employee) you dip your pass into the farebox(bus) or computer(Booth).
To our newer employees- be sure to swipe (or dip) if you are running late due to late bus/train and get the train car or bus number. It can be verified.
This is not a new application of the metrocard. Every TA employee's pass is also a Metrocard. Recently, I had a problem with a probationary employee who did not punch out at 4PM. She said that she simply forgot. A check of her Metrocard showed that she swiped into the system at 4:12 PM, reasonable except that she entered the system at the 42nd St.- Grand Central Station.
Why didn't she just buy a single use metrocard or a token? I don't think that loseing your job is worth the $1.50.
Because, like most people they didn't know we could do that. You'd be amazed how many employees lend their pass to a family member or 'friend'. Unfortunately they get caught when their pass is used while they are on duty.
A few months ago a murderer was nabbed in Philly by tracing his transpass records. He boarded a sub at 2nd St. near the scene of the crime about 20 minutes afterwords, punching a hole in his alibi.
Did you know that the AC motors featuring IGBT on the Kawasaki R-142A and R-143 are supplied by AdTranz? i just found it out on a website through Lycos. maybe thats why they sound the way they do and the R-143 will sound the same.
Adtranz acquired Westinghouse, didn't they? At least the motor, airbrake and power portions?
no they haven't. Westinghouse still makes those products. so i heard. i got all my info through lycos.
Whould this be Khalis?
I think KHI stands for the full name of the Kawalski company.
Kawasaki Heavy Industries is the heavy industry division, the one that builds railcars, not motorcycles and jetskis. That's another division.
from the NYCT web site:
Starting 10pm 4/20 until 7/2/01 at 5am, Manhattan bound trains(J,M,Z) will skip Chauncey, Gates and Lorimer at **all times** due to station renovations. The Queens bound side was done last year. All of these stations have a crossunder.
I do not yet have dates, but sometime later this year work will begin on Hewews,Flushing, Kosciusko and Halsey.
When I get the official Stations Department Buleltin, I will psot further info.
"I do not yet have dates, but sometime later this year work will begin on Hewews,Flushing, Kosciusko and Halsey."
What about those crumpling stations in Manhattan, are they going to be rehabilitated as well?
N Bwy
I will be at the rodeo tomorrow. I will be riding the F train arrivin there around 10am. I will have my F Train shirt and a Motorman hat. C you there
E to JAMAICA CENTER
OK in the section where the site discusses about the IND second system (THE IND SECOND SYSTEM: 1929 PLAN). The first sentence of the first paragraph describes "...enormous never-used station shell at S. 4th Street Brooklyn." Does that mean the Utica Ave Station on the A/C lines in Brooklyn? Or is there some other never-used station shell in upper Brooklyn? If so can anyone tell me where it is so I can see it, because Im kinda confused. THANKS
This Station Is Along the G Brooklyn Queens Crosstown Line In Williamsburg, Brooklyn North Of The Broadway Subway Station
ABOVE the Broadway Station, not north of it.
OK So its Broadway Station..Cool Thanks
OK. What's a "station shell"?
Andrew
Basically the station without the tracks, lighting fixtures, signage, etc.
It was built so that the "G" line wouldn't have to be torn up to add the "Second System" lines later.
For more information, check out Joe Brennan's Guide to Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations and look for the listings for South 4th Street and Fulton Street, most of the way down the page. Also see Joe Korman's diagram of the Utica/Fulton complex.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
test
test
Not This test That you say "test"
CLOSE your HTML tags
Peace,
ANDEE
USE the PREVIEW function
Peace,
ANDEE
I was testing if it would post lately when you hit PREVIEW everything works fine but it does not post.
Just check the dates on pervious posts, don't tie up resources by posting usless test messages.
I cannot get the search engine to work. Was this down like the archives are is it just my network?
Yes. I forgot about that. Sorry.
Unca Dave? Why be sorry? It's not exactly like you're getting wealthy at this. For some reason last night, our network up here couldn't see your network down there. Folks need to take this stuff in stride unless they're willing to cut you a check to have such expectations. :)
I cannot get the search engine to work. Was this down like the archives are is it just my network?
Hi all,
I've created a route database at Subway Simulator Central website (http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral)
If you're planning to create subway, light rail or commuter routes, railcars, please post information on my site, this site will hopefully list all subway/LRT/commuter rail add-on!
Come and take a look.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
I have received my pictures back from the lab of the April Fools Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred. I will have to get them placed onto a photo CD. I hope to do that sometime soon. When this is done I'll try to get them posted.
BMTJeff
As far as I know, the LIRR Central Brach (between Bethpage and Babylon) is not electrified. But I lived right alongside it off Sunrise Highway in North Lindenhurst for four years, and I could have sworn that I saw some M1s or M3s go by a couple of times.
Did my eyes deceive me, or is there something going on here I don't get?
:-) Andrew
Were they being pulled by a diesel?
The Central Branch from Bethpage to Babylon has never been electric. There are third rail ties on much, if not all, of the branch, in anticipation of possible electrification. I think these ties went in track rehab sometime around the time the Ronk was electrified (late '80s).
I think there is third rail for a train length east of Beth, but I'm not at all sure.
Electrification of this connector is on the LIRR's 20 year plan ending 2017.
I think there is third rail for a train length east of Beth, but I'm not at all sure.
Correct.
I've seen them a few times since January, but today I finally got to ride a 3-car type 7 Green Line train. I was visiting the "old neighborhood" in Brookline today and was waiting at the Resevoir T stop, and saw that the platform was crowded, which probably meant the train was going to be packed, right? WRONG! Thanks to the triple car, all Resevoir passengers could sit down. Granted, this train did fill up as we approached Kenmoredue to both rush hour and Red Sox opening day getting out at the same time; but I was really impressed by the uncrowdedness of the train throughout the streetcar section. I definitely prefer the triple car to a double car followed by a single relief car moments later.
It makes me wonder about something; if we ever see the day when the Green Line car shortage comes to an end (we'll have 45 more cars once all 100 type 8s are running and the remaining 55 Boeing-Vertol original LRVs are retired), I hope that the MBTA will add the necessary power requirements to run more triple cars in the future.
Also, while I know the type 8 may start out just running on the "B", at some point I'm sure it will run on the "D" again. When this happens, do you think the MBTA will try out a triple car with one type 8, and cars 3622 and 3682 which are modified to work with it?
I know I may be jumping the gun here, but I think these are some goals that the MBTA can accomplish. It took forever to get the boeings running, but eventually it happened. Even after all the type 8s are accepted, I wonder how many type7s will actually get modified though. -Nick
I Don't think the MBTA Will Retire the the Boeing-vertol cars yet but when the MBTA gets the Type 9's the MBTA Will retire the cars.
"I Don't think the MBTA Will Retire the the Boeing-vertol cars yet but when the MBTA gets the Type 9's the MBTA Will retire the cars."
What does the MBTA have planned as far as the type 9s go...I thought the type 7s will last several more years; they are only 15 years old. -Nick
Well the pcc's on the green line were retired when the MBTA got the first type 8
"Well the pcc's on the green line were retired when the MBTA got the first type 8"
I'm not sure if I quite understand this...the last PCC Green Line run was in 1985, the same year Arborway sevice was discontinued. The type 8 arrived on MBTA property in late Jan. of 1998. -Nick
Nick, the plan is to modify all of the Type-7s as 3622 & 3682 have been prototyped. That way, they can run all two-car ADA trains, with one modified Type-7 and one Type-8 -- making the entire line ADA compliant.
Whether they will have more three-car trains is another matter, and depends on car availability, staffing, power, etc., (meaning money).
"Nick, the plan is to modify all of the Type-7s as 3622 & 3682 have been prototyped. That way, they can run all two-car ADA trains, with one modified Type-7 and one Type-8 -- making the entire line ADA compliant."
This is definitely a good plan...just how long it will take is the big question mark. Also, its too bad the type 8s have a digital display similar to the 01800 red line cars...I was hoping they would be clearer like the R142 LED. -Nick
Thats one down one more to go
Agreed! You can read the old curtain-style front destination signs on the LRVs and Type-7s from far away. On the modified Type-7s (3622 and 3682) as well as the Type-8s with LCDs, they're unreadable until almost on top of you!
It's the same thing with the 01800s on the red line....I go back and forth between the ashmont and braintree lines because our shuttle bus stops in different stations...I can never tell which one it is until the train is a few feet away from me. -Nick
I just saw the film and I have to say that it was great. The subway scenes were beautyful and the movie really gave me a good sence of the fear people must have had to experiance while living in 70's NYC.
Another cool part were all the different "theme" gangs and their "uniforms". I got to wondering about what a Subfan/Railfan gang would have looked like and where they would have been based. Do any of you warrior fans out there have any sugestions for the attire, weapons and location of a Subfan/Railfan gang?
BTW the best gang in NYC is the Martin Van Burien gang.
How about "The Slants" (based in East New York) - wandering around with shoe paddles (sorry shoe slippers)and brake handles as weapons - maybe dressed in traditional Motorman striped uniforms!.
Obviously, then, we'll have to have the Flushing Redbirds, dressed in a familiar hue with their faces painted and hair dyed thusly!
Don't forget the Sunnyside Penns, the Mott Haven Centrals and the Midtown Dashing Commuters. The Dashing Commuters are all dressed in bussiness suits and are armed with steel edged brief cases and lunch sacks filled with door knobs.
Or the R68's - they wear hippo costumes and waddle around slowly.
What do you care. You want to see NYC blown away, Right?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, I'd like to see NYC turn back into what it had been in the 70's and early 80's so it could be clear (to the rest of the country) that New Jersey is better.
Article in Saturday's Times about replacing Newark's PCC's with modern light rail cars in June.
The PCCs in use in Boston on the Ashmont-Mattapan line are a few years older than those in use in Newark...
-Robert King
As are the New Orleans cars by 25 years.
As far as ADA compliance, they are exempt as long as they operate on the existing line. If they were to transfer to somewhere else, then the ADA rules must be adhered to.
At least it got written up, but I wish these folks at the Times would get the generic facts straight. Makes you wonder about all the other "news that's fit to print".
The article said that the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail will connect to the Union-Essex-Passaic Light Rail (Newark Subway), are they lying or is this true? If so, where?
I'm pretty sure that will not happen. If I remember correctly the two systems are incompatible, the cars require different trucks.
That is not the case. The NCS and the H-B use exactly the same cars. No differences.
"That is not the case. The NCS and the H-B use exactly the same cars. No differences."
Well Dan, you're half right. The cars are essentially the same, but the wheels are different. HBLR uses wheels with railroad type flanges and NCS will use wheels with streetcar type flanges. Cars are also numbered differently too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Check out the frogs at switches in the NCS. Streetcar wheels will drop in with standard railroad frogs. To use them you either buy specially configured frogs, or you machine an insert and weld it into a standard
railroad frog. On streetcar frogs, the flanges carry the wheel over the crossing, minimizing noise. On standard railroad frogs the wheel tread carries the wheel across the crossing.
If the frogs have the inserts the NCS uses streetcar wheels. If they don't, then what the PCC's have are railroad profile resilient wheels and the LRV's used on H-B and NCS will be identical.
NCS uses streetcar wheel profile. The sister Shaker cars we're getting have RR profile.
NCS has also installed two car sets of a new resillient wheel. Have to ask tehm where they got them from.
If I understand correctly, you woudl want to replace the wheels on the Shaker Heights PCCs with streetcar profile wheels.
I wonder if NJ Transit used some 'new old stock' wheels from their store of spare parts which may have been bought long ago, rather than buy new resilient wheels recently.
-Robert A. King
Dan,
Perhaps I got my flanges crossed. A NJT official told me of the differing wheel flanges when the HBLR line first opened.
Bill "Newkirk"
What I noticed:
. And if all goes according to plan, Newark will again be the hub of a streetcar network when it is linked to the newly built Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line, which uses the same cars.
My first clue was that HBLR a) used the same cars, and b) was built on the same canal bed.
But this is the first I've heard any confirmation that they were actually thinking about connecting them.
The NJT proposed map shows the trolley extending up the Passaic river on old Erie/Lackawanna tracks, but no indications of heading across the Passaic or Hackensack.
Can anyone verify that date?....I have a copy of a posting dated 2/23/2001 by Keystone Pete that stated that the PCC cars would end their operation on Friday, April 27 and that on Monday, April 30, the new LVRs would be put into operation. I hope someone can straighten out the dates so that al of us can get a chance to take some pictures before it is too late.
The date keeps getting pushed back.
Article in Saturday's Times chides TA for keeping summer service cuts secret.
As I've navigated this board, Straphangers, and BusTalk, I've come across a general dislike for "NIMBYs." Usually the TA wants to extend a bus route or someone wants to build a transit related infrastructure and the NIMBYs come out to oppose it. Really, what's wrong with that? Don't these people have the right to at least attempt to protect their neighborhoods.
Many of you disagree with NIMBY actions that would have anything to do with subway and to a lesser extent bus service planning and routing or infrastructure. Currently it's the electricity generators. Well, if people don't want them, that's there perogative. You can't get on their case for not wanting something that may cause them some sort of inconvenience. Many of you all may feel that new generators are necessary, but then again, many of you probably don't live in 1/2 - 1 1/2 of the proposed sites.
It's like if someone wanted to build a sanitation dump in a field a half mile up from your home with a sanitation truck maintenance and feuling center on site, would you want that? We all need sanitaiton service and a place to process the garbage. And the trucks need servicing as well. So, isn't it a good idea? Yeah, if you don't live near it or upwind. If NYC tried to build a dump and truck center by your homes you know you'd be protesting or supporting whoever that was. Then, you'd be considered NIMBYs to all of the Sanitation Truck Buffs who love a ugly garbage truck and the smell of fresh garbage and garbage juice. That's how you look at the current crop of NIMBYs, mostly as fans of the things they want to oppose. A bus depot in your back yard may be a dream, but what about everyone who doesn't like them? A nightmare.
All I'm trying to say is look at the other side of the coin. The NIMBYs just don't protest for the heck of it.
An old saying goes, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one." I'm going to add a little something, "But only if you don't live among the few."
Think about that.
Well, since I threw the word about first this go round, I do understand the other perspective - after all, here in upstate New York, we have NYC's garbage dumps, NYC's prisons and NYC's power plants (as well as GE but that's yet another story) ... we've done our bit and then some. In this specific case though, those temporary generators need to be where the demand is until the infrastructure can be built out (and yes, we're taking MORE generators again for the permanent fix so they don't have to be built in Manhattan but it'll be a few years before they come online) ...
Here in this case though, NYC has no alternative but to permit them or the other choice is sitting in the dark. One does have to wonder why they didn't consider this before but it hardly matters now. When you look at California's situation though and in particular the rejection of a new generating plant in any of a number of locations near Santa Clara (because it would look ugly) then one has to be a bit less sympathetic when their lights went out in the bay area.
The demand could have been mitigated by a reduction in demand too. But NYC wanted to expand jobs and increase its population. There's always a price and somebody's gotta pay it ... even if it's a temporary condition. That's where I was going with my own tome. If the city shut down the subways, that alone would probably eliminate the need for those extra electrons ... but I'd hate to see THAT solution.
I don't get the huge rub over these generators.
a) They're cleaner than any other ones in NYC.
b) They're quiet, too. I've heard gas turbine units running. Everyone thinks they sound like a 747 taking off. They don't. More like a large airconditioning unit for a building. You don't even hear them over the noise of traffic, unless the wind is blowing the wrong way.
c) Like it or not, we need the power. And it's going to be hard to conserve our way out of a 300 megawatt shortage. We're a huge city, and we need power to run. That's not going to change.
d) We need the power now. Gas turbine units go up quickly, and are quiet, clean, reliable, and efficient.
e) Why the fuss anyway? I bet this time next year, nobody's going to even think about these units. It's not like they're in populated (realative here, guys) areas anyway. They're in industrial areas (mostly).
f) It's the "we don't need power plants, we'll just buy /conserve instead" BS attitude that got California in the mess they're in (plus the super-liberal "protect the consumer, screw the big company" attitude). I don't feel sorry for them at all. I can't. They created the mess and ignored it as it built up. At least NY is trying to avoid a repeat of Cali over here.
Come on guys, we're not going to cut useage enough, and solar/wind power is a joke. NY needs more power, and these unitsare the quickest, cleanest, and most efficient way to get it NOW.
And hey, if Shoreham had opened, NYC would be better off. But Kessel and company stopped that one. Thanks, LIPA.
>> BS attitude that got California in the
mess they're in (plus the super-liberal "protect the
consumer, screw the big company" attitude). I don't feel
sorry for them at all. I can't. They created the mess and
ignored it as it built up<<
for the zillionth time. The problem here in CA is a put up job. We are already 47th or 48th (different sources) in per capita usage. Wind does generate--ever wonder why Holland was dotted with windmills? As I heat my water from the solar rig on the roof to wash dishes later tonite(when the valley in usage occurs, I am enraged by the behaviour of the utility crooks. The incessant "maintenance outages" these guys have cooked up to spike prices are criminal We had a blackout this year on a day when the peak usage was 3k megawatts lower than same day year previous (before the BS started). Even the PR flack for the 'local' part of PG&E has accused the out of state generators of screwing Ca. As to the cleanliness of gas turbines I have no personal expertise, but I am not interested in a permanent smog level a la Hopuston just to run more incandescent lights.
Transit content. If the vast herd of SUV's were taxed off the city streets, and transit usage in other urban areas approached the density in places like NY SF BOS etc, the oil companies would be giving away the oil to run electric plants. I for one resent wasting billions propping up the Saudi royal family and their buddies so someone can drive an SUV to the corner store to buy cigarettes. 2 B-2's (and the 'stealth doesn't work) and you have the Second Ave subway (2 Billion a copy)
Wind power into energy conversion is still in its embryonic state -- it's there, but the efficency of the conversion to actual electricity is still nowhere near what you can get from an oil and/or gas fired turbine. Plus, if you've been along Interstate 10 near Palm Springs lately, you'll notice that while the first few dozen wind turbines on graceful white poles have a certain elegance to them, the latest ones, stuck on what look like turn-of-the-last-century oil derricks, are petty danmed ugly, though I'd imagine a lot chaper to erect.
To create enough electrical power to make a difference, you will need a lot of wind farms with a lot of turbines. And if they're all built to the current standards going up along I-10, they will have all the warmth of your nearest electircal transformer station, and then you will be back into the problem of people not wanting those ugly things in their back yards (wind turbines also tend to be placed in areas where wind generation is the most dependable, which means atop mesas or in mountain passes, both of which tend to be very visible to the general public. As I said, a few wind turbines in a scenic sight doesn't offend, but when the landscape is glutted with them, it's NIMBY time)
Plus, if you've been along Interstate 10 near Palm Springs lately, you'll notice that while the first few dozen wind turbines on graceful white poles have a certain elegance to them, the latest ones, stuck on what look like turn-of-the-last-century oil derricks, are petty danmed ugly, though I'd imagine a lot chaper to erect.
To create enough electrical power to make a difference, you will need a lot of wind farms with a lot of turbines. And if they're all built to the current standards going up along I-10, they will have all the
warmth of your nearest electircal transformer station, and then you will be back into the problem of people not wanting those ugly things in their back yards
Those turbines near Palm Springs are an impressive sight. I didn't consider them at all ugly, but maybe people who have to see them every day have a different opinion. Anyway, while the turbines may be environmentallly friendly, animal-rights types oppose them because they supposedly have a tendency to turn birds into shredded tweet.
"Those turbines near Palm Springs are an impressive sight. I didn't consider them at all ugly, but maybe people who have to see them every day have a different opinion. Anyway, while the turbines may be environmentallly friendly, animal-rights types oppose them because they supposedly have a tendency to turn birds into shredded tweet."
In the case of the California Condor, it would only take a few bird strikes before the species became extinct. I don't belong to PETA (I'm not fond of organizations which go off the deep end into lunacy) but in this case conservationists have a legitimate gripe.
I'll only do this once (I promise, folks) but I've made some disparaging remarks in the past about "envirokooks" and "PeTA meaning People Eating Tasty Animals" and would just like to take a fast second to explain my own stand on all these issues since my perspective is obviously VERY different from most "kooks" in that I *live* in the hills.
Bambi is a RODENT ON STILTS ... cute, eh? Well, put a few thousand dollars worth of plants in the ground and see what you think of little sweet Bambi after they're consumed in two hours. Having to have Babmi shot because Bambi was rutting and decided to come through a plate glass window and getting horribly mangled by jumping around in cut glass, trashing the house in the process. Bambi was suffering and was going to bleed to death. Blam. Not something easy to deal with, lemme tell ya. My wish however is that PeTA would come here, back a truck into the driveway and take away our resident herd of 67 deer that live on this property. There's PLENTY more. Bambi must die.
Rabbits are cute and cuddly ... NOT ... they'll take your leg off. Jimmy Carter was right about "killer bunnies" ... PeTA is welcome to a carton of them, shaken, not stirred. Same goes for sables, mink, racoons ... oh, don't get me started on racoons ... and skonks and bears ... yeah, PeTA ... back in that truck ... y'all come back for more now, y'hear?
What did it for me was a sleepy town down in Dutchess County called Fishkill and East Fishkill ... PeTA came to town down there suing and demanding that the town, which traces its name back to Hendrick Hudson, ("kill" is an estuary, there's two "kills" around Staten Island fer krimminy's sake, go bother Rudy) RENAME itself to "FishSave" ... OK, that's it ... where's my freaking GUN? And they were SERIOUS!
If animals are in pain or in danger, I'm willing to do anything needed to help out. I love our critters though I also feel the need to wring some of their necks every now and then ... but I eat cow. I eat Turkey (and yes, we have a flock of about 50 wild turkeys here too) and I wear leather shoes. We own a good bit of land and are letting the trees on many many acres grow and close in on us. We're doing our bit for a little more CO2/O2 exchange while these very same kooks sit in their hot tubs whining about how much electricity costs.
They need to do a little farming. I did. It cures you of kookiness when you live *in* the realities ... just watch out when you go to milk the bull. :)
Sorry for the second part, forgot the "enviro" part of the pixmission. I live in farm country. Not "agribusiness" but "family farms" ... where what they grow is fed to their own families and sold to others to pay their bills. Farm life is no thrill. Up at 4am to milk the cows and you gotta do it again at sunset. No matter WHAT the weather ... -40 and 50 inches of snow to 95 and a thunderstorm. Life up here happens and doesn't much care if you get wet. :)
On our property, there has NEVER been chemicals applied and with 7 acres of "lawn" there's a lot of green. We compost the clippings in piles that sit for 3 years where it eventually gets spread back onto the lawn once it's fermented. We use lye soap and it makes for a great insecticide that's "friendly" when you take the "grey water" out and dump it on the decorative plants. Keeps the insects way.
We've got plenty of anthills out there too and a marvelous trick for keeping ants away involves just taking ordinary white chalk and rubbing it around windows, cracks and other places where ants will want to go. Ants don't like to cross chalk. Cucarachas on the other hand can only be ditched by dreezing the little phuckers. When I moved from the city to Plattekill, we naturally brought some Bronx bombers with us. Well, the house froze for a week and that took care of them and the eggs.
Our lawn has a variety of weeds, natural grasses, clover, dandelions (great salad fixings) rye, alfalfa and other natural coverings (thus the critters) that needs nothing much more than rain ... the lack of chemicals means that we can eat sunflowers and that which grows out there along with mushrooms and scallions. Hell, scallions grow wild in the Bronx if only the kooks would notice ...
Anyhoo, when I listen to the various and sundry kooks, holed up in their apartments whining over having no trees on their block, I remember what city life was like myself. These folks need to get out into the country themselves, get to know what animals are friendly and which DESERVE to die and do their bit ... it'll give them a whole new perspective on the world ... and we could use a few more hands to milk the cows. Moo. :)
Bravo for you!
Well ... ummm ... thanks ...
You DO realize that not chemicalling the lawn and all is essentially laziness and a prevailing upstate attitude of "it grew, why should we secrew with it?" ... heh.
But yeah, the "world is ending" as well as the "Arthur Midland Daniels, supermarket to the bizarro world" mentality just don't cut it up here. While Grisdede's and D'agBag are willing to sell you genetically engineered crap, and savvy farmers with no morals are willing to sell you (ahem) "natcherl f00d" ... REAL farmers grow stuff for themselves and their families FIRST in their own priorities and ain't gona grow poison or allow the posions to ruin their own crop.
Just make sue you know where it comes from and you're OK. And if you like corn grown by folks who are gonna eat it themselves, come on up to Albany county in August/September (depending on the rain) and have the best sweet corn there is ... and if you can't make it this far, enjoy the alar-free apples in the mid-Hudson valley (Newburgh to New Paltz) ... and of course, fingerlakes cheese and Schoharie county milk. Vermont is just as nuts as we are for dairy if you don't keep kosher. Upstate, you can remain healthy glatt by mixing, but the rebbis would go agita. Us cowpones upstate make for some great eats. Alas, what shows up in the supermarkets in the city ain't fit for man nor beast ... THAT's agribiz through the Bronx Terminal Market and all.
Seriously though, we've got maple here, we make our own syrup, Bavarian hops grow WONDERFULLY up here in Albany county (in the hills at least) so we brew our own beer. And ya wondered why I left the city and have little use for the lefties? Heh. Moo. :)
Thanks. I also know that Philadelphia Cream Cheese is made in Philadelphia, New York (went by the plant once).
I did have a chance to visit upstate once - though not on a wonderful summer day. I was assigned to a disaster response team during the ice storm of Jan '98. Volunteers came from all over the US to help out. The Army flew me and another doc by helicopter from Albany to Fort Drum, and from there we fanned out in four-by-fours through 20 degree days, running makeshift clinics, treating people in shelters, you name it. At one point I was going door-to-door making sure people had food in the cupboards, counting pills in pillboxes to make sure each patient had enough to last the week.
It was a great experience, but I think next time I'll do it in summer and milk a cow. Moo to you too! :0)
Ahh Fort Drum -- during the late 1970s when the U.S. was still in training for an Arctic front against the Soviets in wartime, the Army decided to move training from Alaska to Watertown because it better simulated conditions in Siberia (no joke). And no place in the entire United States gets the combination of both snow and cold as Old Forge, in the foothills north of Utica.
Heh. It is a whole lot more fun when the ice is gone (we still have about 8 inches of snow on the ground up here) ... and yes, remember that ice storm well ... got us too though not as bad as the north country. First time I ever saw CPRail back in locomotives to power some towns up there ...
>>> Our lawn has a variety of weeds, natural grasses, clover, dandelions (great salad fixings) rye, alfalfa and other natural coverings (thus the critters) that needs nothing much more than rain ... <<<
You are lucky to live where you can farm naturally. Around here, anyone who is agriculturally inclined has to buy grow lamps, and insulate the buildings so they won't give off a telltale heat signature.
Tom
Heh. Well, there's enough helicopters around here to keep us honest. And as far as heat signatures go, when they come looking for those, it's usually after the power company has ratted ya out. :)
[And as far as heat signatures go, when they come looking for those, it's usually after the power company has ratted ya out. :) ]
Another perspective use of fuel cells.
Arti
Heh. Only question would be where you'd tie down that hydrogen bladder on the roof. :)
Can't say I blame you.
Kevin, hand me my long gun... Bambi's waitin'. Or better yet, you kill 'em, I'll grill 'em. I know there are others of my faith who would object to that approach, but I'm enough of a pragmatist to recognize that deer in particular are a menace to humans. (Not to mention that I've totalled one brand-new pickup and damaged three other cars in collisions with deer.) And, for all those PETA members out there, the deer population of North America is over TWENTY TIMES what it was four hundred years ago. They multiply faster than the rabbits!
And as for the cows, my cousin is a dairy farmer in Carlisle (Schoharie County), so I've helped with the milking machines on more than one occasion...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Voorheesville ain't far from Carlisle ... and the milking machines are the easy part once you've got Bossie locked in ... it's the PITS that are the true test of your ability to endure. After all, you know and I know what "fresh country scent" *REALLY* is ... I get a chuckle every time I hear those words on teevee. Heh.
And yes folks ... come and get your Bambis ... get 'em while they're still hot. :)
yes and SF had a Mayor who thought Trolley Coach overhead was ugly until it was explained to her that the City owned the hydro plant. (but no oil wells)
Explaining it to one official is tough enough -- I'm waiting for all the rich homeowners in Palm Springs to start complaining about having Spindletop with propellers put up just north of town. Thanks to the San Andreas Fault, it is a perfect site for a wind farm, I just have the feeling they're getting close to the NIMBY activation level with the new units (though obviously with the power crisis going on right now, this is the perfect time to erect as many forms of energy generation devices as possible. It's the other times where NIMBYism tends to win out, such as the current case in New York, which is 24 years removed from its last major blackout)
Just like when we had the big ferry protests in Sea Cliff against the Foxwoods-Glen Cove ferry.
Sea Cliff NIMBY's claimed there'd be severe traffic jams in town, and noise from the ferry.
Fortunately the ferry started and there's no change, and there is no way to even tell the ferry is running. No noise, no traffic jams, in fact Sea Cliff is still very much of a ghostown.
well reasoned and calmly stated. here, here
Doesn't democracy mean the dictate of majority.
Arti
Yes it does. And airplanes also have the capability of flight. What democracy is wasn't my point! I was just trying to get some of you to look at things from a NIMBYs point of view! Obviously, that goal wasn't acheived with some of us.
Also, since when was this country a total democracy? Also, you wouldn't be preaching democracy and majority if those factors were going to get a landfill or trainyard in your neighborhood.
[Also, you wouldn't be preaching democracy and majority if those factors were going to get a landfill or trainyard in your neighborhood. ]
So obviously you agree that there would be nobody who wants a train yard or whatever. From that we could deduct that no "undiserable" development can happen, or better yet lets demolish trrain lines, power stations, garbage dumps! Now of course my question would be, where would you get the power to enjoy your NYMBY lifestyle or will you store your garbage in your back yard?
I understand that public projects need public discussion as public money is involved, but if a private developer wants to do something on the property it owns, screw the neighbours, if they have a problem buy the land themselves.
Arti
Are you dense or just failing at sarcasm? If YOU want to demolsih a subway line, go right ahead. Say hello to Darius or whatever his name is for me when you go to prison.
What I've been trying to get you to understand is that there are always TWO (count them) sides to an argument. Instead of just looking at NIMBYs (it's spelled with an I genius) as whiners and complainers, look their POV (point of view).
BTW, I'm not a NIMBY. I'm 16 and I'm enjoying my teenage lifestyle and have enough power to do so freely.
[Are you dense or just failing at sarcasm? If YOU want to demolsih a subway line, go right ahead. Say hello to Darius or whatever his name is for me when you go to prison. ]
Huh?
[NIMBYs (it's spelled with an I genius) ]
Whatever, as if you don't mistype.
[BTW, I'm not a NIMBY. I'm 16 and I'm enjoying my teenage lifestyle and have enough power to do so freely. ]
That explains it, end of discussion.
Arti
>>>That explains it, end of discussion.<<<
Explains what? That you just got your ass handled by a teenager. That you're too afraid too match wits with a high schooler. That explains it all right.
I predict upon reading my wits comment, you're going to formulate a response that goes; "I wouldn't engage in a battle of wits with you becuase I don't believe in fighting an unarmed man." But upon reading this you will re-evaluate and come up with some clever (note the sarcasm) teenage flame or something. I doubt it could be as clever as the one I'm responding too, but you've already showed me you're FAAAAAAR to superior for me, so I'm sure you'll prove me wrong. <====== sarcasm.
Heated battles against the ignorant are wasted efforts. Since being in the state of bliss is one benefit one could enjoy being an old, tired ignorant bafoon is quite appealing, try to let them be, everyone deserves an opinion, even the very stupid. I love this country
[Since being in the state of bliss is one benefit one could enjoy being an old, tired ignorant bafoon is quite appealing, try to let them be, everyone deserves an opinion, even the very stupid. ]
In what way was my opinion stupid, the point was that he didn't follow the logic of discussion by ignoring my counterpoints, and his last statement indicated that he's quite OK where he is, consuming the amenities which are produced by methods making a locale less desirable but produced Not In His Back Yard.
Fact of a matter is that power needs to get generated and garbage disposed.....
Arti
Doesn't democracy mean the dictate of majority.
That's why the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy.
[That's why the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy. ]
What's the difference? It's just a different origin of the word, meaning the same thing.
Decades ago that wasn't a problem, so has the political order changed :-)
Arti
The difference between a Democracy and a Republic is that in a Democracy; majority rules. In a Republic, the rights of minorities are (or supposed to be) protected and considered as well.
[The difference between a Democracy and a Republic is that in a Democracy; majority rules. In a Republic, the rights of minorities are (or supposed to be) protected and considered as well. ]
Here are the definitions from Webster:
Democracy:
government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
Republic:
a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government
Pretty much the same, republic being a democracy lead by a chief of state.
Arti
>>> Pretty much the same, republic being a democracy lead by a chief of state. <<<
Pretty much the same, but not quite. The United States is a democratic republic. The farther you go toward a pure democracy, the more things are put to a vote of the people through plebiscites. New England town meeting are often cited as examples of a pure democracy. The more the law making is delegated to representatives who although elected democratically have free will in deciding what laws to enact, the more the republic aspect of the government is emphasized. The bicameral legislature and elected executive (president) that we have is farther from true democracy than the parliamentary system with a prime minister.
Tom
[The bicameral legislature and elected executive (president) that we have is farther from true democracy than the parliamentary system with a prime minister]
That's true and not. US president has unprecedented powers unexercisable in most of the WE counties. The pure democracy would have a council as the supreme power. Most of European constitutional monarchies, as an irony.
Arti
Heh. That's a good one ... (as applied today)
Doesn't democracy mean the dictate of majority.
NO! It means majority rule, minority rights.
No democracy means every can do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Dictate of majority is another word for mob rule.
Actually, that would be libertarianism.
No democracy means every can do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Dictate of majority is another word for mob rule.
[No democracy means every can do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Dictate of majority is another word for mob rule. ]
Incorrect. Democracy is a government by publicly elected officials by people = majority.
Arti
(Democracy is a government by publicly elected officials by people)
Using that definition the former soviet union was as much of a democracy as the US is. Leaders in the former soviet union were elected by the people so long as a qualified.
[Using that definition the former soviet union was as much of a democracy as the US is]
The example of the USSR wouldn't be the only one where a dictatorship has masqueraded as a democracy.
[Leaders in the former soviet union were elected by the people so long as a qualified. ]
In the USSR the elections had 1 candidate and falsified election results. Routinely the official statistics of attendance of elections was 99%.
Also let's not forget that de facto power in the USSR was the Polit Buro of the Communist Party, not the elected representation.
Arti
A better example would be NAZI Germany Hitler was elected in a free will election. Are you saying NAZI Germany was a democracy?
[A better example would be NAZI Germany Hitler was elected in a free will election. Are you saying NAZI Germany was a democracy? ]
I'm not saying the USSR was a democracy, they (and you) claimed to be such. Not sure what 3rd Reich was supposed to be after Hitler dissolved democratic institutions and it doesn't matter as obviously it was not a democracy as neither was the USSR.
Arti
>>> Hitler was elected in a free will election. Are you saying NAZI Germany was a democracy? <<<
At the time Hitler was elected in 1933, Germany was a democratic republic. Hitler changed it into a dictatorship. It is fair to say that pre NAZI Germany was a democracy. Just being a democracy does not guarantee that good leaders will be elected.
Tom
[It is fair to say that pre NAZI Germany was a democracy. ]
And one of the weakest ones. That's why it was so easy for him.
Arti
Democracy is rule by the masses. In this case everybody has to vote on laws, not elected indirect representation.
Has the city considered opening some of these plants around the Fresh Kills landfill? Many landfills produce lots of methane gas that is either butned off or fed into a turbine. The Tullytown landfill (near Briston PA, Philly's main dump) has a gas turbine that supplies enough power for 50,000 homes (as well as an onsite trash-to-steam plant that provides another 50-100MW).
This would be a good idea because a) nobody really lives around Fresh Kills anyway, b) it won't "screw up" the neighborhood and c) there's an oniste source of fule.
Now, only an up-capped landfill will produce Methane (water is needed for the decomposition) and usually when a landfill is retured, it is capped because the wast management ppl don't what to keep running the water treatment plant and do groundwater checks. However, if a semi-closed system of water injection is added to the landfill, the $$ made in power generation might outweigh the cost of making sure the leechate dosen't get out of hand. It would also go a long way to eliminate the garbage problem for future generations (basically because when a landfill is capped, nothing inside of it will ever decompose.)
A development in Cherry Hill (3 miles from Jersey Mike's house, for the few SubTalkers who aren't familiar with South Jersey) was built on a former dump and years after moving in, the residents started having lawn fires.
LOL.
"Dad, the yard's on fire again."
"Well don't just stand there...put it out."
"Awww, dad."
"Stop complaining and do what your father tells you."
"Yes, mother."
Did they have to go to plan B?
Yes...B
>>>Sanitation Truck Buffs who love a ugly garbage truck and the smell of fresh garbage and garbage juice.<<<
You mean that there are actually buffs that are lower on the food chain than rail buffs?
Mmmmmm, luv that garbage juice.
(Usually the TA wants to extend a bus route or someone wants to build a transit related infrastructure and the NIMBYs come out to oppose it. Really, what's wrong with that? Don't these people have the right to at least attempt to protect their neighborhoods.)
There ought to be a fair balance between regional and local interests, but this has never been the case. In the Robert Moses era, neighborhoods were steamrollered, but today so many procedural obstacles have been put in place that you have Robert Moses in reverse. The situation is just as unjust.
People are angry about that injustice. Power breeds arrogance, and these days opositionalists do not even make a pretense of considering interests other than their own. There is certainly no concern for the future. And a process that favors those with the resource to play the game favors the wealthy and influential. There is something to that environmental racism argument -- though not in any of the cases in which it has been made.
Moreover, the NIMBY process is so overbearing that people object not only to real quality of life effects, but also to imaginary ones, in an effort to score political points and perhaps get bought off. A transit line faces as much "environmental" opposition as a highway.
The greatest outrage may be people who purchase property in the vicinity of a legitimate quality of life problem -- and get it cheap -- then demand that public resources be expended to remove it, thereby gaining a windfall. Everyone wants everything limited to "upscale" things (if I hear that word one more time in my life I'll puke), except those fearful of gentrification, who are simply against everything.
In short, people are angry at NIMBYs, and Bush thinks he has a winner bashing "environmentalists," because of the arrogance of self-centered power. That's why it is possible that NYC will be unable to improve its subway system -- and also possible that the pendulum will swing to the opposite injustice once again.
[There ought to be a fair balance between regional and local interests, but this has never been the case. In the Robert Moses era, neighborhoods were steamrollered, but today so many procedural obstacles have been put in place that you have Robert Moses in reverse. The situation is just as unjust.]
I think you really hit the nail on the head here.
The question I have is, how do we avoid the likes of the Cross-Manhattan Expressway and the demolition of Penn Station without losing urgent projects to striped bass and a few homes in Astoria? It's a question of balance that I think applies not only to the construction of new infrastructure, but to the limits of government regulation and law as well.
the eternal questions of balance including the guesses about unintended consequences will never be easy. To believe a well informed citizenry will democraticly decide is IMHO as fanciful as believing the 'elites' will do the peons any real favors.
That said, while I favor many transit projects willy nilly, there are always opponents and their volume often outruns their logic OR their social conscience. As to striped bass, please see the article in the Times about the decline of butterflies in Mexico, or for that matter the recent decision on Coho Salmon in the Klamath River. The great DDT fiasco ALSO saved millions of potential victims from malaria. How do we figure these things out especially when, most scientific research is 'bought' or at the very leeast 'underwritten', and when even the 'democratic' process is FUBAR " Here in SF Bay area, MUNI wants to build a rail line on or under Geary Street. This is the single heaviest ridership corridor in town. So the latest is some batch of neanderthals who don't want rail 'cause it might disrupt drivers from parking close to their businesses. Well, who am I from a different county to tell them how their neighborhood should be reconfigured" Mind you, I beliebe it will benefit evryone except a few gas stations but...
I think the key is that "decisions" tend to be good, while deals and "non-decisions" tend to be bad. The problem with the existing set of procedures is that they allow oppositional groups to delay things indefinately through litigation, etc. You can't sue to MAKE something happen (ie. the 2nd Avenue Subway), only to stop things. And by delaying things until their moment has passed -- politics has changed, funding is grabbed by other priorities -- you can often kill them.
The problem is death by delay, and the increasing number of people who play that game for fun and profit.
[You can't sue to MAKE something happen (ie. the 2nd Avenue Subway), only to stop things. ]
Interesting point, but why not?
Arti
I think the key is that "decisions" tend to be good, while deals and "non-decisions" tend to be bad. The problem with the existing set of procedures is that they allow oppositional groups to delay things
indefinately through litigation, etc. You can't sue to MAKE something happen (ie. the 2nd Avenue Subway), only to stop things. And by delaying things until their moment has passed -- politics has changed, funding is grabbed by other priorities -- you can often kill them.
In an ideal world, narrow-minded people who sue to stop worthwhile projects could themselves be subject to suits by all the people who ended up suffering from the blockage of the projects. It'll never happen, of course.
[It'll never happen, of course. ]
And as I questioned before, why not?
Arti
[In an ideal world, narrow-minded people who sue to stop worthwhile projects could themselves be subject to suits by all the people who ended up suffering from the blockage of the projects.]
Part of the problem I think is that the courts take so long to get through anything. I bet some firm statutory deadlines on the time it takes to litigate would do wonders, here and elsewhere. Then too, we could adopt the European loser pays system to help discourage nonsense suits.
If John blocks Sam's train going through John's neighborhood, can Sam put up a barricade and tell John "you can't drive your stinky, polluting SUV down my street" ???
:0) Oh, well, I tried.
Sometimes, a situation is complicated by NIYBY ("Not In Your Back Yard, because my tax dollars go to you and you ride to my back yard, which I don't want"). Case in point: Rail transit in LA. When MTA put together its rail plan, it did not route enough rail to poverty-stricken areas of the city. The agency was sued. Now, instead of pledging tocomplete rail in areas where people lack cars and depend on mass transit (like Watts), the agency has curtailed rail development entirely. Why? Well, wealthier neighborhoods can't have people of color riding to them on a train, can they? It's OK for them to cook and clean, but we don't want to know how they get here in the morning to do it. Isn't racism wonderful...
I have to give NY credit. Metro-North does that reverse commute for the maids and butlers headed for Westchester homes, and most people appreciate its value...
>>> Well, wealthier neighborhoods can't have people of color riding to them on a train, can they? It's OK for them to cook and clean, but we don't want to know how they get here in the morning to do it. Isn't racism wonderful. <<<
That's a cheap shot. The wealthier areas already have their maids arriving by bus. The opposition to further subway building was based on the cost, cost overruns, and the perception by those in the wealthier areas that they personally would never use the trains.
Tom
"That's a cheap shot. The wealthier areas already have their maids arriving by bus. The opposition to further subway building was based on the cost, cost overruns, and the perception by those in the wealthier areas that they personally would never use the trains."
I wish it were a cheap shot, Tom. It's not. Yes, the maids already arrive by bus, but residents in wealthy areas accept those buses only reluctantly - and I've lost count of the number of protests when a new bus route (not a trolley, not a subway, a bus) or change in route was proposed that would send poor people riding past rich people's homes.
The argument was not about costs, Tom, it was about property values. It doesn't take a genius to make the translation.
>>> I've lost count of the number of protests when a new bus route (not a trolley, not a subway, a bus) or change in route was proposed that would send poor people riding past rich people's homes <<<
Maybe I am incredibly unaware of what is going on here in Los Angeles, but I cannot remember any reporting in the press of protests of new bus routes in L.A. other than the union not wanting non-union companies taking over routes and an instance of a conservative Jewish community in the Valley objecting to the conversion of an abandoned rail ROW into an express bus way, since none of them would use the bus, and the present route is on a main street a few blocks away. Other than those, please refer me to the last instance.
Keep in mind the post I was originally replying to was specific to Los Angeles. At the time the voters stopped funding, the next segment of the subway was to connect the Latino eastside area across the Los Angeles River to the downtown area where Broadway is an overwhelmingly Latino shopping area. It would have been years before the subway reached the west end of the valley or the westside of Los Angeles. Opposition to the subway came not only from those who were far away from the subway line and could not see it benefitting them, but also from the "Bus Riders Union" a transit dependent consumers group which felt that too much funding was being drained from bus service for the many to concentrate on expensive rail which would serve only a few, and particularly commuter rail which served predominately upper class long distance commuters.
Tom
Driving Test Ends in Railway Sandwich
-Reuters
AMSTERDAM (Feb. 14) - A man was forced to abandon his driving test Wednesday when his car became stuck at a railway crossing and was ripped apart by two trains.
The 22-year-old and his driving examiner made a hurried escape from the car when its engine cut out as it straddled the railway tracks near The Hague, police said.
The car was first dragged 150 meters along the rails by one train, then pulled the other way by a train heading in the opposite direction.
No one was injured, but train services between The Hague and Rotterdam have been severely delayed.
Once upon a time in Nassau County, LI, I'd guess 1960 give or take 2 years a man had to abandon his car on the LIRR tracks because it stalled there. Likewise a train coming in each direction demolished the car, police could find no human remains at all and nobody at the scene who claimed the car. So they traced the ownership of it and found the owner sitting comfortably in his home; he told them what else could he do when he saw a train coming at him in both directions, like the shepherd he got the flock out of there. Funny in a way, what else could you do? Too late to flag the [both] trains.
Yes yes yes, from now until c.9:15 I will be hosting an IRC chat at icr.cjb.net #metrocard or at www.subtalklive.com Topics will include "The Warriors", ideas for railfan gangs, cab signaling, the future of Amtrak, electrifacation, GE vs. EMD and the Camden Trenton Boondogle.
Paris Subway Passengers Get Free Massage, Snacks
-Reuters
PARIS (Jan. 9) - Plagued by strikes, train delays and violence in its corridors, the Paris subway system is treating harried passengers to a free massage and a healthy snack.
"In this hectic life it's good to start the year with serenity," said a spokesman for the RATP transport company, which operates the Metro.
The initiative was launched Monday and continues through Friday at four stations. It includes brightly colored posters plastered on the tiled walls of the underground railway reading "Serenity," "Smile" or "Let's be Zen."
Curious commuters queued up outside a massage booth at the Republique station in central Paris as others nearby drank green tea and munched on seaweed crackers.
"We live in a city where there are a lot of nervous and stressed-out people," said masseur and physical therapist Christophe Basile as he took a break between customers.
Passenger Francis Thellier grinned enthusiastically as he emerged from the booth after a six-minute massage.
"It's very pleasant, although a little short to make you feel better. But I can tell that the message is intended to make people feel good," Thellier said.
What's the significance of bracketing the title?
He does that all the time
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you, 'Surf!
One word for the MTA suggestion box:
hookers.
(grin)
I'd pass that for a massage, safer... :-)
Arti
>>One word for the MTA suggestion box:
hookers.<<
Guilianni would freak out. Wait until his term is over then suggest it.
Heh. Just because *HE* can't get it up doesn't mean everybody else can't ... sheesh.
Yes thats right, Marty, Myself, And an observer on this group Handle is NYCTRANSIT, are going to be doing some adventure exploring on Rockaway around Hammels Wye Shop and Rockaway Industrial Park (abandoned) this trip is similar to a trip with Forgotten-NY.com in where we explore Neglected NY, and ofcourse we know great spots for pictures in that area. This will be in the Late Morning, If anyone is interested please give me an e-mail, everyone is welcome on this trip (no matter how much you developed a hatred for me, here is your chance to find out who I really am, haha like anyone would want to. If this does not interest you, We have another railfanning trip the following day, Tuesday April 10th. This will include the A, J, L, and IRT 3 Lines, We will explore Central Brooklyn and its uniquness. If you can make it on the 10th, we'll be more then glad to. Please be forewarned these trips (especially the first one) is not for the weak-hearted. Once again Give me an E-mail and we'll discuss the details.
Hi everyone! Your subway system is fascinating. I from in Prague in the Czech Republic. We have little underground witch is not much interesting. I hope that I sometimes catch sight of NYSubway on own eyes. I like peeping on the historical photograph the www.nycsubway.org. I thank you David Pirmann for his work.
You Shoud Check out the METRO in Washington D.C. I Will During April vacation.They say it is a great system.
I'd like check out, but if I would go in the USA so rather in NY. Subway in NY is more interesting. I'm sorry, I can speak English a little bit. I start learn 6 moth ago. Journey into USA from the Czeh Rep. is very long and very expensive.
Im Going down to Washington D.C. I will get photos of it so you and everyone can see.
It's perfekt. I wish you good trip. I send you some name web pages about Prague underground on Monday or Tuesday.
Looking forward to it... my daughter rode it while visiting your city a couple of years ago but I've never been there and she didn't take pictures of it (she did take some of other parts of your city, though, and I must say I'm impressed)...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you ever get the chance try Chicago. Most of that system outdoors and much antique elevated railway still exists even with all modern trains. Not as big or as comprehensive as New York though! Chicago is the only city where elevated trains still run in the center city so that makes it a must to visit...if you get the chance.
Thank you very much for your tip. If I get the chance, I certainly visit it.
>>> I'm sorry, I can speak English a little bit. I start learn 6 moth ago. <<<
Your written English is quite good for six months of study. I hope you will participate further on this message board with comments about the Prague system. It may not seem interesting to you, but most of us know nothing about it.
Tom
Actually IMO Praque system is interesting, that it was the first one to stop using Soviet rolling stock (actually the original idea as I know it was to use, I believe Tatra built trains.) I'm quite curious what the fares are and what are the expansion plans, and how are the locally built trains faring.
Arti
In reading your entire post a few days ago I agree with Tom that your English is quite good. I hope you can understand some Americans who don't speak good English at all either by local dialects or excessive use of cultural Slang [slang meaning words that are not used as you'd learn them in studies, In this case].
I studied Spanish in High School and have spoken it for more than 40 years; did OK in Spain but trying to understand some Spanish speaking people in America was often difficult. Then again I admit I still don't know all the vocabulary.
However, Prague does have a lot of Tatra trams, some of which might be successful if imported for operation in some U.S. cities, such as Philadelphia or Boston.
And Shkoda buses and trackless trolleys IMHO better than any Ikarus will ever be.
Arti
I'm pleased with your intrest. I read all your reception. Thanks. There are some web pages, where are information about Prague underground. Just at the moment goes new set train M1 on the line C(manufacturer ÈKD - SIEMENS - ADtranz). You can see it on the http://www.fd.cvut.cz/studenti/xcermak/xmss/index.htm, unfortunately only in Czech. When you clics "fotografie" you will see next picture from Prague metro sytem. If you want another photographs I send you some address. I try find web where will be text in English. You keep
patience please, because thare is about six o'clock more then in your.
Thanks for the link.
Did Tatra or Shkoda ever build any, even if experimental trains for Prague Metro?
Arti
I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. I try respond: new trains for metro produces CKD and Siemens {Hi financially entered into CKD} and old trains were in the USSR. Tatra makes truck ans lorries {winner on the rallye Paris/Dakar } and Skoda/Wolswagen group makes cars,trucks,buses and together with CKD trams.
I mean before privatization, did they have any experimental trains produced?
Arti
Yes, CKD had experimental train for metro, but they did have got money on financing the series manufacture. The future CKD isn't waranted becouse the faktory is in the competition now.
Halo!nazdar! I'm sorry I've been so busy the last few days and didn't have time to read your message until just now. This is a wonderful place to see the metros of the U.S. and many other places around the world. Dave has put his heart and soul into this place along with those who contribute here.
If you do manage to get over here, the NYC subway is perhaps the largest and busiest subway here. The city of Chicago and Boston have wonderful subways as does Washington DC should you make it there. If you like trains, you'll enjoy our mass transit systems. I wish I could say that our intercity railroads were of decent quality but should you ride them, you can look forward to adventures that would make the Mockba/Beijing express or the Australian train to Alice Springs look pretty professional. Heh.
But we do have some nice subways which you absolutely will enjoy. Let us know when you're coming over ... as you get to know the folks here a bit you'll find some nice people to hook up with who can tell you all the details ...
It's feetch that exists this web. Do you like photograpf from Prague metro? Our Subway is relatively safe. There is one supevisor at every station and there are some cameras which monitoring move at the station. Subway is closed from 1:00 am to 5:00 am. In the time stated is cleaning and servicing. If you want see maps so go http://www.fd.cvut.cz/studenti/xcermak/xmss/index.htm and click "soucastna sit". Thare are survey lines, stations and map.
Cool! feetch! Yes! Will go and have a look. Though I am in the US Eastern time zone, I work here nights and this is my last stop before bedtime. Or in American railroad parlance, "going dead on excessive hours" ... heh. We have a large number of customers in the Czech republic who buy our software.
Just so you also know, NYC is not all that far from Montreal (about 400 miles, 600km from NYC. Canada is a very nice and civilised country and if you have enough money when you come to visit and also have enough time, you'll want to at least visit Montreal ... I live half way between New York City and Montreal and since I grew up in New York, Montreal's the city I head for whenever I can. If you find yourself in an automobile headed to Montreal, you're welcome to stop here along the way and see our farm country too.
I'll go take a look at the site you suggest and THANKS!
Cool! feetch! Yes! Will go and have a look. Though I am in the US Eastern time zone, I work here nights and this is my last stop before bedtime. Or in American railroad parlance, "going dead on excessive hours" ... heh. We have a large number of customers in the Czech republic who buy our software.
Just so you also know, NYC is not all that far from Montreal (about 400 miles, 600km from NYC. Canada is a very nice and civilised country and if you have enough money when you come to visit and also have enough time, you'll want to at least visit Montreal ... I live half way between New York City and Montreal and since I grew up in New York, Montreal's the city I head for whenever I can. If you find yourself in an automobile headed to Montreal, you're welcome to stop here along the way and see our farm country too.
I'll go take a look at the site you suggest and THANKS!
(forgot to post this - whoops!)
Here's a link to soucastna sit as mentioned in the previous message. Pretty impressive railroad, but then again Prague's been around for a while now. :)
Sposibo vam dlya ety linky. My nyet nauk Prahy metroyy. V New York'e ochen russkiy govorili yest!
I have got link about metro in Moskva. I can send you if you have intrest. Po ruski govoris ocen xoroso. Ja toze.
Ñëåäóøûé ðàç, ïèøû Ðóññêèì àëôàâåòîì
WHAT IS THAT LANGUAGE?
Set your encoding to Cyrillic (Windows).
Still the question stands, looks like Russian, but not exactly.
Arti
It is totally Russian. However the spelling may be off, it's still understandable to someone who can read and understand Russian.
If you set it to Cyrillic (ISO), Cyrillic (DOS) or Cyrillic (KOI8-R) or (KOI8-U), then it will be illegible.
[However the spelling may be off]
It's off.
Arti
Yes, it have written Russian, but I haven't got installed Russian alphabet on my keyboard. I sent you address about Prague "metro" / you say Subway / and somebody write back that a lot of peoples from US can speak Russian quite wel. I can speak Russian better than English. Thare were we learned Russian since 1989s on the school everyone.
I know it was in Russian, but with spelling mistakes :-)
I've learned Russian at school too.
Arti
Yes, there were the spelling mistakes. Where do you live Arti? Are you American? I'm Czech from Prague. Your subway is very interest.
I live in NYC, but I'm originally from Estonia, that's that's where the knowledge of Russian comes from.
Arti
I understand. Do you mind my question? I'm 29, I was born in Prague. I studied traffic school and after I worked on the railway in Prague.I finished this work three years ago. I working in information and communication company just now.
Born in Tallinn, started my "career" as a sound engineer, then came video. My final realization is computer craft..
Arti
I've never learned Russian in school, I've never even been to Russia!
So I new that I totalee skrood up tha speling.
I can read Russian, but I don't do much of it and never have so I read like a second-grader.
Do you really think I could correct you, no, but I do know that you were misspelling :-)
Arti
it was on NBC4 just now where they said something about the W train about to start soon for a year via the rehabilitation of the Manhattan Bridge. maybe it will show itself later tonight at 11pm.
The W starts on July 1st, no sooner.
It depends on how you define "soon." At South Station in Boston, there's a sign amidst the construction saying, "Coming soon, THE SILVER LINE!" Unfortunately in this case, "soon" is defined as 2003!
If the south part of the Tremont Street subway is anything like the part that the green line serves now I don't understand how they plan on running 60 foot buses in there. Right now the northern part can barley handle modern LRV's.
"Coming NOT SO soon THE SILVER LINE"
Its going to take a long time to finish it maby by 2010 the silver line will be complete.
2010 if they get funding. funding maybe hard to get after the big dig disaster.
Is this service a replacement for a discontinued trolley or el service?
It's the old Orange Line el which came down in the 70s... the Orange Line was relocated to the Southwest Corridor, and the T "promised" replacement service. HA!
EL service.
And why is the MBTA planning to use busses on the Silver Line? Why busses and not LRVs? The line is going to be a rapid transit line that operates either in exclusive transit lanes or tunnels? Is rail transit no longer better for rapid transit?
The only reason that has any merit is that LRV's cannot run in the Ted Williams Tunnel
Why not? Couldn't smaller LRVs be used, maybe made the same length and width as a standard articulated bus?
Because the Ted Williams tunnel will be an interstate highway when the I-90 connector is completed as part of big dig construction there is no way the department of transportation will approve of laying tacks. Also the clearance is low and running catnery would make it impossible for trucks to run through.
Ahhh, now it makes sense to me. When I first heard about the Silver Line, I didn't know it was going to use the Ted Williams Tunnel to get to Logan Airport. If it's going to use an automtive tunnel, it probably should be some kind of bus operation. Now I understand why.
Your right but then they would have to make a tunnel and it takes a while for the water in the tunnels to drain out.
The MBTA alredy has a line with LRV's called the green line.
Plain stupid the idea to terminate the "W" at Pacific Street on weekends. Why the hell can't they use the bridge on weekends if they can use it on weekdays? I know that this question has been posed before but would someone please re-enlighten me on it. I've been sort of in and out of the board for the last few weeks.
wayne
I dont know, RTO had the "W" going to 57/7 weekends. When the *(#$*(# did RTO change it's mind?
I do not know the official reason but a bit of speculation: It could have to do with weekend G.O.'s. If the Bway side of the MannyB has to be closed weekends, the N/Q/R can go thru the tunnel. They can't handle any more than 3 services.........I hear station rehab of DeKalb Ave. so at times there may be only one routing (bridge or tunnel, not both) on the weekends.........The Queens IND will continue with their various weekend G.O.'s. If the R has to be rerouted thru 63rd St., it must use the express tracks thru 57/7. When this happens, they can run the N to Astoria regular and turn the Q at Times Sq. I suppose with all these weekend G.O.'s going on, half the time the W will not be able to go to Manhattan, so the TA figures that it can turn at Pacific St. consitently on the weekends rather than going to a different terminal every weekend. With the N/R across the platform at Pacific on the local track, each route runs on a 10 to 12 minute headway on Sat/Sun. So the wait hopefully will be a short one. Again: just my opinion I am not a spokesperson for MTA/NYCT!
That rehab of De Kalb Avenue is going to be very sticky, especially when they start repairing/restoring/regrouting/reglazing those friezes. They'll have to close the track they are working at in order to fix this tile. This could be mostly problematic for the "Q" services. I would guess they're going to do this at night and on the weekends. The end result is that this is going to look very nice when it's done, much as the 36th Street station currently does. And when they start applying that final coat of clearglaze/sealant, HOLD YOUR NOSES - it's a GAS! I stepped off a "B" at 36th Street back in 1996 when the white-coated and face-masked crew was up on the scaffold car applying the stuff - a very nasty smell; really got my attention.
wayne
Maybe they could extend the curtain wall by the bypass tracks at the northern end of the station while they're at it. I know that's where the switches used to be before that entire complex was rebuilt.
This discussion of DeKalb reminds me of the first time I was there waiting for a train. It was on July 20, 1967 - my first all-day subway excursion. The bypass tracks were quite intriguing. Had we had more time, we would have gone all the way to Coney Island, but since we had a bus to catch, we had to head back to Port Authority. An express pulled in on the bridge track (can't remember if it was an N, Q, or T) which we boarded, and as I looked out the side window, the old Myrtle Ave. station came into view. I mentioned it out loud, and a fellow sitting near us said it was closed.
I don't remember all the details of that day, but there were several firsts - my first ride on an A train, realizing we were on an express as we ripped past a local stop, and my first experience with the BMT standards (ugh!). I'm almost positive I saw an R-27/30 Q train along Broadway, and I do remember seeing a "Know Trains at a Glance" placard at 34th St.
It will be an annoyance, but so long as the GO cutting the W back to Pacific is completed by the time the rehab work at Stillwell shuts down the D/F/N trains from going there, it won't be both an annoyance and an idiotic move at the same time.
On the positive side for some people on the board, it's the first time in a while the Sea Beach hasn't drawn the short end of the stick on one of these cutbacks. The MTA could have decided to cut the N back to Pacific or even 36th Street and run the W to Astoria on weekends.
I've seen many Redbirds on the 6 line with a corona yard designation sitcker. Black with a purple diamond. How long has this been going on?
Oh they seemed to have reshuffled the hell out of the redbirds. There are mainline redbrids all over the (7) and worlds fair cars all over the (6). It's kind of more fun this way. :-) I can't wait for some 62A's on the (7).
:-) Andrew
I also can't wait for R62s on the 7. It appears as though no IRT line has a dedicated fleet other than the 1, 3, 5 and 9 lines. The 2 now has, or had, some R-142s, the 4 has R-62s and redbirds, the 7 will have R-62s and redbirds. The 5 is all redbirds, but they seem to be different models.
This happened yestrday at around 12:30 p.m. or so. I talked to the motorman and he said tehre were 2 of them on the line. They wereorignally on the #6. My guess they were moved from the #6 to the #5 becasue the new trains are on the #6. My question is, why dont they put all the R62 on the #4 line and then move older trains to the #5 and when the new trains come in, off they go to the #5?
Well, I did see Van Cortlandt equipment running on the 5 on Friday (whoopee).
If I may put my two cents worth, this is an inconsistency in OPTO Car Assignments on the 5. If a 240th St Yard set of R-62As is running on the 5, does this mean a set of redbirds is prowling on the 1?
-Stef
Remember, Dyre Ave derailment???
How severe was the damage to the cars? I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary at East 180th St or Unionport Yards. Someone have car numbers? I have not been witness to any car movements of Out of Service Cars either.
-Stef
The reason has been stated time and time again here on SubTalk: Westchester Yard sends 2 trains of R62A's to the #5 line because the #5 line is OPTO during the midnite hours for the Dyre Ave. to E. 180th St. shuttle. It gives them a 10 car train to cut 5x5 and have a spare train to cut 5x5 if the first train goes bad ordered.
I think there have always been a few, a very few mind you, R62s (or R62A's, I can barely tell them apart) on the (5).
:-) Andrew
When R-142s or 142As start showing up on the #5, will these R-62As be sent elswwhere ? The R-142s are OPTO compliant, no need for the R-62As.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am only 22 years old, but already I feel a bit old when it comes to subways, and the changes that have occured, as well as changes soon to come. For instance, I remember when the E, F, G, and N terminated at Forest Hills. On or around 8/1, the V will terminate there instead of the G. Perhaps other subtalkers here would like to post various thoughts about the changes to the subway over the years. -Nick
The E,F,G, OR N?? Dont you mean R. The N goes to Astoria. Hey Im 23 and still remember the double-lettered locals, the JFK Express, and the old EL over Jamaica Ave when it used to run to 168st.
No, he means N.
About 18 years ago, the N ran from Coney Island to Continental Avenue Mon-Fri 6 am-8 pm, 57 St/7 Av all other times except late nights and as a shuttle between CI and 36 St/4 Av Bklyn. late nights.
The RR operated between Astoria and 95 Street at all times.
Thank you, Zman for clearing this up...I apologize for not mentioning the change of the N and R switch in my original post! -Nick
Well the memories that stick out for me are:
The J trains terminating at Queens Blvd. where passengers would transfer for the Q49 bus to 168 Street. This is the line where I got to ride my first Grumman Flxible bus. That and I used to take a bunch of subway to bus transfers and save them. Remember the machine that went "ding" every time you took one?
The M trains going down the Brighton Line.
How it was easier to find a $20 bill on the street than it was to try and find a QB train.
How the pre-GOH R40/42's PA system only worked in the C/R's car, and it just gave a lightly toned "weeeeeee" in all the others.
How the R42 doors (4500 to around 4799) closed so quickly and forcefully that you'd knock out a filling if you got hit by one.
Playing on the R10's on the GG, and even "assuming the position" on them along with my friends.
There is one funny thing though. Remember when the trains used to have graffiti all over them and whenever a window would get hit, a couple of days later the window would either be cleaned or replaced so that the passengers could see through them? Now the trains are clean, but you can't see through the windows.
Here's a few more memories:
N trains running over the Manhattan Bridge and express in Brooklyn.
D trains running express in Brooklyn.
F trains running express in Brooklyn.
NX (eventhough it was short-lived.)
QJ running in Brooklyn.
E trains running to Rockaways.
All of the trains with the big blue stripe (starting with the R-40-M.)
The "death rattle" when the doors open and closed on the R-42's.
The cars on the 1 thru 6 lines. These trains would usually be mixed with cars ranging from R-12 thru R-33. You never knew what type of car would be on the train.
E and F trains could be anything from R-1 to R-46.
The "Siberian blast" AC on the R-40's and R-42's when they were new.
The sounds and smell of the R-1 thru R-9.
Well, get out there and record what interests you, in your mind, on paper or film.
By the time I was your age in 1968, the subway system was amazingly different from what I had grown up with. Ar the time it seemed like everything interesting was disappearing, and a lot was. But now these memories form a base for appreciating the sweep of history.
Think how much more different the world will be when you look back on this in 30 or 40 years.
The period from 1963-1973 was the last one of major changes in the NYC subway system, with the depature of the last original equipment from the BMT and IRT lines, the construction of the Chrystie Street connection and Sixthy Ave. express tracks between W. Fourth and 34th streets, the end of the Myrtle Ave. and Third Ave. els, the arrival of the first stainless steel and air-conditioned units and the takover by the MTA and their initial desire to wipe out everything old about the system and replace it with their blue-and-white corporate colors (to the detriment of preventive maintenance or graffiti removal).
The last decade has been tame by comparison, though hopefully the opening of the 63rd Street connection will be followed by some other actual construction, and not just studies, in the next 10 years, and that the MTA won't go for cookie-cutter sameness on all their pending new car orders from the B Division, once the IRT's fleet has fully been replaced (with the Eastern Divison's car length limitations guarenteeing at least a little variety in whatever the new orders look like)
The last decade has been tame by comparison, though hopefully the opening of the 63rd Street connection will be followed by some other actual construction, and not just studies, in the next 10 years
Which brings up a question that's been bugging me. Once the work on 63rd Street is done, there will be no actual construction work going on. By "construction work" I mean system expansion, not just maintenance. Will this be the first time since 1904 in which there'll be no construction?
If you exclude the WWII years, when construction on the IND extendion to Euclid Ave. in Brooklyn was suspended, I think there was about a two- to three-year period in the late 1950s between the time the Rockaway Line was completed and the Chrystie St./Sixth Ave. project began where there was no subway construction.
From the fiscal crisis on on construction was at such a low pace that it was close to non-existant. After all, the 63rd Street start to finish was, what? 25 years?
I would sort of count AirTrain as continuing construction, at least in feel. It is totally within the city, and effectively extends the A train to Kennedy Airport--at least better than "The Train to the Plane" did.
re time periods with no subway construction
From the fiscal crisis on on construction was at such a low pace that it was close to non-existant. After all, the 63rd Street start
to finish was, what? 25 years?
True, but you also had the Archer Avenue work during some of that period.
I would sort of count AirTrain as continuing construction, at least in feel. It is totally within the city, and effectively extends the A
train to Kennedy Airport--at least better than "The Train to the Plane" did.
I agree, to a point. It's not an MTA project, but at least something's being done.
Speaking of a transit system that's gone a long time without any expansion, there's always the LIRR.
It looks like there will be some kind of expansion ( read that double tracking ) on some LIRR branches like the Port Jefferson and the Ronkonkoma. When that will happen, who knows. Any ideas out there?
"Think how much more different the world will be when you look back on this in 30 or 40 years."
Paul, I can only imagine! As far as subways are concerned, I hope 25-30 years from now I'll be riding underground alond 2nd avenue :-) -Nick
My favorite memories are of the Broadway-7th Ave Express. Believe it was abolished in 1959 to expedite train movements at 96th St. Used to be that every other local and every other express had to cross over there. I don't remember many delays but you can appreciate how much smoother things can run without all those crossover moves especially in rush hour. Services were: 7th Ave Express up Lenox to the Bronx, Broadway-7th Ave Express up Broadway to Van Cortlandt Pk, 7th Ave Local to 145-Lenox, and (Broadway) 7th Ave local to 137 St. It didn't matter much any more when the then new R21/22 replaced the High-V's that were on that line but before that I loved that Broaway-7th Ave Express with the old trains. So even from over 2000 miles away my favorite line is now the "2".It has been a mighty long time!
I'm showing my age so here goes..........................
1) D=Types on the Brighton Express, then in 1964 R-32 "Brightliners"
2) B Types and even BXs on the Brighton Local, then olive green R-27/30
3) D-Types on the Sea Beach Express, then B-types then R-32s
4) 2 "A" car standards on the Culver Shuttle
5) B-Types on the Franklin Shuttle, R-11/34's also
6) Unrebuilt B-Types - riding in the unused motormans cab that had a bench seat for two people.
7) The sound of axiflow ceiling fans in the R type equipment. Aslo the sounds of the motors that opened the roof plenums for fresh air. One would open then stop, then the next one would open and stop and so on.
8) How can I forget, the now lost sound of bull and pinion gears as the older pre-war equipment excellerated.
9) The unmistakable glow of the green fluorescent destination sign sen on R-type equipment. Sometimes due to a problem, the wron one would light or both would light !
10) Standing in Stillwell terminal at the West End platform watching a 2 or 3 car train of Standards layed up at the bumping block and a midday train after discharging passengers couple up to make a PM rush hour longer train.
11) Over to the IND.....the unmistakable fog in the 34th St/6th Ave station when the R1-9's ruled.
12) R-10's on (A) and those adorable little ceiling fans that did little to cool you on a hot summer day.
13) On a cold winters day sitting down a feeling the heat underneath the seats heat up your legs. If your pant legs were wet from the rain, they were dry when you got up and left.
14) Brand new R-33/36's on the #7 Flushing line showing us a new type paint uncommon on typical subway cars. Also the SUPER EXPRESS ride and roll signs that sais WORLDS FAIR.
15) Here is a rare on. On a hot summer day, finding an R-15,16 or 17 circular storm door window open.
16) The railfan window on a D-Type or Standard. The ultimate until the motorman blows the whistle !
17) Riding Q-Types on the Myrtle Ave "el" in warm weather with the window open from the bottom. Cross seat a plus.
18) Walking from one car to another in a D-Type on a rainy day and not getting wet.
19) Same as #8, living 5 blocks from the Brighton Line at the Newkirk Avenue station. It's a warm quiet summer night after midnight and you can hear the sound of the Standards leaving Newkirk climbing the hill to Ave.H and the bull and pinion gears whining through the humid summer night. That one raises goosebumps on my arms !
20) November 1967, Chrystie St. introduces the IND to the Southern division BMT and the newer R-32's are replaced by older R-1's
Well, That's what I remember !
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>How can I forget, the now lost sound of bull and pinion gears as the older pre-war equipment excellerated.<<<
The London Underground trains have those sounds. Too bad the NYC trains lost this sound, its like listening to music.
I'll show my age too, by adding a few things to Bill's memories:
Ex-SIRT cars on the Culver local and later the West End local.
Modified IRT low-V cars on the Franklin shuttle (and the Culver shuttle)
C-types on the old Fulton St. El from Eastern Parkway to Lefferts.
Brighton line "bankers specials" Nassau St. expresses which stopped at my home station, Neck Rd (as well as Ave U) before switching to the express track at Kings Highway.
-- Ed Sachs
Well, I have not been around quite as long. These are my ridership memories:
The M specials, exclusively of 8-car R32 Brightliners, from Coney Island to Chambers St.
The #7 Franklin Av. shuttle, exclusively 3-car stainless R34s.
The Q Broadway Exp., all brand spanking new Brightliners. Likewise the N Broadway Exp. and T Broadway Exp.
The other services through Dekalb Av. were the TT (R32s) and the QT (R27-30s) to Astoria and the RR (R27-30s) to Continental Av. Announcements of routes and destinations made at Dekalb Av.
When all of this equipment had the double destination signs: one with the letter and the other with the destination, something that should be brought back. Side destination, but not route, signs back-lit in green.
Wow, Bill...you have tons of memories, as I'm sure many subtalkers do. Here's a few more on my list:
1.) Riding the cars with double circle-windows until the mid 1980s (R14/15?)
2.) Riding the R62s on the 7 during redbird rehabilitation
3.) Riding rehabilitated redbirds :-)
4.) Graffitti on many subway cars
5.) Subway air brakes being extremely LOUD until the MTA quited them down in the early 1990s.
6.) Rehabilitated R44s/R46s....no more blue stripe and roll signs replaced with LCD.
7.) 12/30/97 Randomly go to cath the #2 to at Times Square for that one-in-a-million chance at getting a hi-tech ride. In the station for 2 minutes, train approaches....it's the R110A!!! Talk about ending the year with a BANG! Rode the R110B in August of 1998 as well.
Not bad for my age; even though some memories are somewhat recent. -Nick
Nick: I have three major memories of my childhood years in Brooklyn and Queens.
1. Riding the #4 Triplex Sea Beach to both my grandparents, one who lived on 65th Street off New Utrecht, and the other pair that lived on 12th Street, two blocks from the Avenue U Station.
2. Riding the #1 Triplex Brighton to Prospect Park Station, and getting a charge as I disembarked at the station for a quick flight up the stairs and a two block jaunt to Ebbets Field to watch my beloved Brooklyn Dodgers.
3. Riding that God damn B Standard 4th Avenue Local from Queens Plaza to Times Square and 42nd Street, and hoping all to hell that the trip would be fast so I could get the hell of that train and take a real one like the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach.
4. Taking the Sea Beach to Coney Island for a day of real fun.
Well, three out of four ain't bad.
Ditto for your thoughts on the Sea Beach and Brighton with triplexes, even though I did like the Standards too, I admit they could have had more power and been livelier. To go from railfan days to my days as a motorman imagine 2 1/2 trips on the then -RR with ANY equipment. Especially the stretch from Canal to Pacific; with the exception of Cortlandt-Rector and the Montague tunnel hardly any straight track, and a bunch of slow curves. What a drag; but I didn't work there often but did so just to keep my experience on all lines active.
Working on the 4th Avenue local? That to me is like one bad toothache or, better yet, a sound kick in the stomach. But I have one for you, and maybe someone out there heard about this before. Had I not moved to California as a teen there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I would have gone to work for the TA and become a motorman like you were. Absolutely no doubt about it. But I would have raised some hell if they had stuck me on that train. I would have brownnosed my way, if necessary, for either the Sea Beach, or, if I had to take second best, the Brighton.
"2. Riding the #1 Triplex Brighton to Prospect Park Station, and getting a charge as I disembarked at the station for a quick flight up the stairs and a two block jaunt to Ebbets Field to watch my beloved Brooklyn Dodgers"
I take the #4 train to see the Yankees play a few times each summer. Last year, when I was on my way to see Piazza get beaned in the head at the second half on the 2 ballpark doubleheader, I was waiting for the #2 at Times Square to go to 149th street and catch the #4 from there. I was in the station at the right time, because the R142 came through to do a simulated stop! -Nick
Fred, I identify with your memories. But I'm from a later era, from 1965. Thus, I just missed the Triplexes. Obviously, the beatiful Brightliners were my favorites. They were undoubtedly revolutionary for the starch-shirt TA descendants of the IND era. These were the replacements of the Triplexes on the Brighton and Sea Beach. From what I have read on this site, the Triplexes seem to have been mavericks too, and the best of their time (only one accident involving them in 38 years, too). So, there are two bright sides to this story. One, that the Brighton and Sea Beach got the best equipment from 1928 to 1967 (at least). The other, that due to the foresight of some individuals (I forget, the name of one was quite important in this), three sets of Triplexes were saved and restored for Transit Museum excursions.
The Triplexes were about as close to being maintenance-free as you can get. They were still rolling right along as well as the day they left the factory when they were sent to slaughter.
Now it turns out I missed something else besides the Triplexes in July of 1965 - Transit Day at the World's Fair. It was on the 22nd, and we were still in the city that day! But instead of spending a second day at the fair, we were cruising around Manhattan on the Circle Line. And for the second day in a row, we took an N of shiny new R-32s from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
>>> 6) Unrebuilt B-Types - riding in the unused motormans cab that had a bench seat for two people. <<<
Particularly when returning from Coney Island late in the evening with a date.
Tom
Tom,
They were really nice returning to Brooklyn from Jamaica after a movie at the Valencia or the Merrick too!
I've got a lot of even older transit memories, but I'm afraid that if I post them here, that other posters will be asking me if Lincoln really had a beard.
Oh hell Karl, go ahead. I'm 60 years old and just about your age. Let the other guys pay homage to experience in this case. The LOEWS Valencia. They uaually got the first run movies just after they debuted in Manhattan at the Criterion, the Warner Bros. Strand, or the Brooklyn Paramount.
Is that the Lowe's Valencia at 165th St Jamaica across from the RKO Alden.
The Valencia had a gold fish pond and stars in the ceiling. With a girl in the balcony what more could a guy in the 50's as for. Besides the 15 began it great trip to the battery from there.
But the Alan Freed Rock and Roll shows at the Bklyn Paramount were some of the best times.
I guess the Rap Music of today is the Rock and Roll of the 50's with violence. Rock ballards were about love not violence.
About different lines and ridership.
The TA like any business has a way of turning people away. If you go to a store with poor service or bad employees you don't go back. If the TA reduces service the riders find another way. Look what happened to Rheingold Beer. Pepsi stopped selling and they lost market share and never got it back. Dumb and Dumber.
You would think the powers to be at the TA would stop micro manageing and just polish the wheel and not try to re invent it.
For not
Burn the Slow Orders and Run Eight.
Curt
YES! The Alan Freed shows at the Brooklyn Paramount. Of course in my case the IRT from the Bronx to get there. One year I cheated and hung out for a 2nd show, moved up front and got a 3rd row seat. Fats Domino, the Penguins, Solitaires. Moonglows...GREAT. I fail to see where rap has any similarity to R&B of those days likewise today's so called rock and roll has NONE whatever to my rock and roll which was really converted R&B.I'd been to the Valencia with a date a few times [I lived in the Bronx, had to travel for mine] but the RKO Keith in Flushing brings back memories of the fish tank too, and the sweetest girl of my youth, Carolyn Robak. 40 years ago.
Anyway, a side trip on the BU's on the Myrtle Ave. el after the show at the Paramount, then home again on a High-V or Low-V. See ya..the biggest Rhythm & Blues/50's R & R fan in Montana.
>>> RKO Keith in Flushing brings back memories of the fish tank too <<<
Was that the one at the end of Main Street on Northern? If so I do not remember any fish tanks, but I do remember a fountain in the lobby, a faux open air auditorium with moving clouds projected on the ceiling.
Tom
That's the place, guess the fish might have been in the fountain, and likely depending on time frame they didn't always have them. I don't remember the moving clouds, but then I was with my steady so didn't notice.
Not to bring theaters onto this site but they sure had some beauties back then, and big screens too; these multiplexes just don't cut it for those of us who remember........
Go ahead and reminisce about the gate cars. We know how you feel about them.
My two cents' worth:
R-1/9s and all their marvelous sounds on the IND, and still seeing their side destination signs backlit.
R-10s on the A in their teal and white racing stripe scheme, thundering along CPW at about 50 mph or thereabouts.
BMT standards on the Canarsie, cruel and unusual punishment for me at the time.
Brand spanking new R-32s on the N in 1965, with their upper destination signs set to 57th St. and backlit in green. Not to mention their trademark blue doors.
Olive drab R-27/30s on the QB, QT, and RR prior to Chrystie St., then showing up on the JJ and later, QJ.
Seeing the R-16s for the first time on a 15 train and thinking, what's a 15?
Failing to notice the humongous magenta F on a slant R-40 the first time I saw one.
R-7/9s on the Canarsie, sending the BMT standards to that happy subway yard in the sky, supplanted by R-42s.
The graffiti epidemic of the 1970s and how repulsive all that scribbling was.
The good old days when rapid transit was RAPID.
Bill: I'm glad I wasn't around in 1963 when the D's were taken off the Sea Beach line and replaced by the uuggghhh Standards. That was the 4th Ave Local cars and everytime I see a picture of a B type running on the Sea Beach line my skin starts crawling. BTW, that picture of the Triplex #4 Sea Beach you gave me proudly sits on a stand in my living room. I look at it often and then I'm tranported back in time to 1947-1954 when I rode my favorite train with delight.
And on April 19, it will be the 54th anniversary of the first time I rode my favorite train, and I'll post a few goodies on that score very soon. Have a great week, and thanks again.
You're very welcome Fred.
BTW - Did you show your students that D-Type picture ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I showed my wife and a few of my friends the picture. They have an appreciation for my love of the NY Subway and especially the Sea Beach. My students have heard me talk of these things but they look at me like I'm from another planet.
You should see Fred s House, all Mets and Subways, and 4 dogs. And in the trees outfront, Hundreds of Green Parrots. Fred lives in a different world, no wonder why his students think he is weird.
Hell Bob, my wife thinks I'm weird, too, so there is nothing for me to do but plead guilty. This is it. My wife and I have word games now and then, and I ask her what one word best describes me. You've got it----Weird. How's a guy to win?
April 30 will mark the 34th anniversary of my first IND ride, although it wasn't an A train. That would come a few months later, in July.
That was a Sunday and I remember it well---believe it or not. I just had a great date with a girl I met at a dance, and we went steady for four months. Alas, we broke up because I felt we were getting too serious and I like being a bachelor. I made the mistake of going to a dance exactly five months to the date on September. I met another girl. On August 1 we will celebrate our 31st anniversary.
The death of the "G" on the Queens IND is premature.
>>> Perhaps other subtalkers here would like to post various thoughts about the changes to the subway over the years. <<<
1.) Riding the 1300 series convertible gate cars on the Myrtle Ave. line during the summer.
2.) Checking the marker lights on approaching trains to see if the train is going to your destination.
3.) Riding between cars (R1-R10) on the CPW dash.
4.) Threading between buildings on the 3rd Ave. El between South Ferry and Chatham Square.
5.) Riding the trolleys on 3rd Ave. as the El thundered overhead.
6.) Riding the BMT Q type cars between Flushing and Queensboro Plaza. (And seeing QBP in its original majesty)
7.) The outrage at having the fare doubled, offset by all the new free transfer points, which allowed extensive railfanning.
Tom
1. Seeing nothing but "Standards" in the rooftop yard at East New York1
2. Seeing mostly gate cars in the lower yards there!
3. Ridng a gate train across the switches onto Lexington Ave, and seeing a Jamaica Express of Standards approaching in the distance!
4. Standing on a side platform station with a six car gate train completing loading at the opposite platform, and hearing the bell signals being passed forward by the five gatemen!
5. Riding the end platform between gate cars, and going around the curve from Fulton St onto Crescent St on the way to 111th St!
6. Being helped aboard the IRT Express during rush hour at the Brooklyn Bridge Station by NYCT "Pushers"!
7. Standing in a hot crowded Standard during rush hour, and looking at the propeller type fan spinning directly over your head.
8. Riding one of the first twenty R-16's when they had no standee poles at all!
9. Riding the outside platform of a gate car on the "Lex" or the "Myrt"
anytime, summer or winter!
Riding the Summer Sunday Specials on the Franklin-Chambers Line on the otherside of the bridge, going non stop on the Sea Beach between Coney Isl and 36th St, and passing some old New Haven Electrics on the Bay Ridge Line. Or the 3rd Ave Express over the Harlem River. Or crossing the Manny B. on a Triplex or Standard, with the rail fan window open and the smell of the coffee at Chock Full of Nuts on the Brooklyn Side..
Today I fund some time to railfan and view a large amount of the NYC subway here is a report I will post several messages with comments and questions but here is the route and a few general comments.
7 train from times Sq. to 74 street. Transferred to E got off at 5 Ave. got the B train at 42 street rode it over the bridge then on the Sea Beach express tracks. At stillwell transferred to a D train. Got off a prospect pack and got on the Franklin shuttle. Got on a C train at Franklin Ave. Transferred to G-train at hoyt-schermer took it to smith-9th got on the F train. Transferred for D train at west Washington. got off at 7th Ave. Got on R train at 57 street. Transferred for the shuttle at times Sq. got on the 7 ate Grand central. Crossed over to inbound train at 33 street. Transferred for 5 at grand central transferred for R at Union Sq. got off at times Sq.
Round, round get around, I get around, get around round round round round round---I get around. To quote the Beach Boys. You had one hell of a time from what I can gather. Good show.
Guess what? It was good, clean fun, I bet. You have a lot more to see out there, and I encourage you to continue.
Boy, what a day that was.
Did I hear those magic words "Sea Beach Express?"
Dan
How long did all that take? Spending a day railfanning the subway is something I want to do this summer.
I also have been on a B that got GOed to go express on Sea Beach. It was anti-climatic since we went slow as hell the whole way. It's an interesting line, however.
With a few trips to surface 6 1/2 hours. The Sea Beach express wasn't that slow I was on slant and it was a little rough and we waited 5 minuets by the yards before pulling into stillwell.
There is no Sea Beach Express, You were on the Brighton Express.(Q train)
Peace,
ANDEE
No I was on a B train that was routed over the sea beach express tracks do too some type of track work.
Oh, a GO, I see. Then you were lucky to get a "slant" they only appear on the B on weekends.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the Q doesn't run on weekends.
True, I thought about that afterwards
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> here is the route <<<
Sounds like a great ride, but you missed the CPW dash and DA BRONX!
Tom
How the heck do I start this thing? I just downloaded and extracted the new flushing line and cannot find how to start it.
The instructions are very poor, I'd hate to think how someone without any knowledge of computers could figure this out.
From what I hear that program isnt designed for american systems. I have downloaded it too, AND IT WONT START!!!
After spending two hours trying to figure it out, I give up.
The web pages for download say you gotta download a file from yet another site, to where the link isn't even given.
I'm just getting MS Trainsim when it comes out. BVE must be designed by the same people who designed Ikea, everytime I go there I'm lost and confused!
Dudes, it won't run on American Windows without modification. Checkout Yahoo Groups there is a group abut BVE named "BVE".
I think I'll just wait for MS Trainsim. Mechanik seems to have difficulty running in Windows ME 2000.(IT GETS STUCK)
It sure sucks that Asia (and Europe) has more trainsims than we do.
Mechanik came from Poland. BVE from Japan. And the Japan playstation Trainsim. What does America have? Nothing yet, hopefully MS Trainsim will be out soon.
Guess it's just is a result of the love affair Americans have with the car that I loathe!
>I think I'll just wait for MS Trainsim. Mechanik seems to have >difficulty running in Windows ME 2000.(IT GETS >STUCK)
BVE does not work with Windows NT or Windows 2000, the author states this on his web site (in Japanese but it does say it).
It does however work fine in Windows 98, and Windows ME (the English version too) providing it is installed correctly.
To Install BVE version 2.00 there are 3 files you need.
1) bve200.exe
2) uchibo7.exe
3) String.ini (English version)
All of these these files are available from this page...
http://chiba.cool.ne.jp/mackoy/download/index.html
Once you download the files.
1) Run the BVE200.exe file.
Since the information during the install is in Japanese they may be unreadable on most non Japanese systems.
- The first prompt is asking you what folder do you wish to temporarily use files. The left button
is to accept the path in the edit box, the right button is to cancel the install.
(Click the left button)
- Then you should see a blue background (the standard software
install type) and a smaller window in the foreground with some
install confirmation info (probably unreadable). The left
button again is to continue, the right button again is to
cancel.(Click the left button)
- This part trips up a lot of people so pay carefull attention.
Another window should display, with your selected install path
towards the bottom center of the window. There's a button on
the top left side (with a picture of a computer and
disks) "Click this button to start the actual installation".
The button on the left is a browse button should you wish to
change your install path, abd the button on the bottom will
cancel the install. (Click the top left button)
- The next window you should recognize as the Windows start menu
where you applications are listed.(Put what you like here, and
click the bottom "left" button)
- Okay here another one that trips up a lot of people so
pay "carefull" attention.
Here is another window which is an install error message which
is unreadable on english systems However the buttons at the
bottom will be in English. Click on the *Ignore* button. If you
don't click the ignore button the install will not be complete,
and BVE will not work properly. (Click the "ignore" button )
- The last step is a window with an "ok" button. Click the 'Ok'
button, and the main part of the Install is complete.
2) Run the 'uchibo7.exe'
- Upack the files to a temporary folder.
- Go to the temparary folder you selected (use Windows explorer
or something). You have to go to this folder manually.
- Run the 'English.exe' file.
- Make sure the path list is the same path where you just
installed BVE2. It should have the folders
.../Railway/Object added.
- That completes the Installation procedure.
3) The final piece needed is the string table converted to English. The one that is included with BVE is not readable on English systems. So someone converted the Japanese file for use with English systems.
- Copy the String.ini to your BVE folder (overwriting what is
there).
That's it, install complete.
>It sure sucks that Asia (and Europe) has more trainsims than we do.
>Mechanik came from Poland. BVE from Japan. And the Japan playstation Trainsim. What does America have? Nothing >yet, hopefully MS Trainsim will be out soon.
1) MS TrainSim is being developed in the UK (by Kuju Entertainment)
MS is mostly the project manager. So MS TrainSim is mostly a UK
developed sim.
2) The US "has" a Train Sim, its called TrainMaster its been out for
a few years, its actually a pretty decent railroad Simulator.
See for yourself a demo is available for download.
http://www.trainmaster.com/
>Guess it's just is a result of the love affair Americans have with >the car that I loathe!
The attraction of a simulator (Flight, Racing, Trains, etc) for most people is to do something you normally wouldn't be able to do.
So how would America's love affair with the automobile get in the way of that regarding a Train Simulator ?
Cheers.
Ernie Alston.
To read the web site in English, one may go to Alta Vista's transtlator. (altavista.com, go to translate). Though, what does this mean?
You cooperated the pot and to snow Rabbit express.
Go here, this will at least get you started ... in order for it to work, you need the "English crack" since BVE is STRICTLY Nihonjin and not for gaigin to mess with. :)
http://www8.freeweb.ne.jp/business/creature/Simulator/EnglishSimulator.htm
And here's an even more helpful location to get BVE to work on NON Japanese Windows (that's the hangup, you need Japanese Windows which ain't the same as what we use) ... it CAN be done, but requires some cracks ...
http://www.trainsim.org.uk/bve.html
Im not shure how to use it
What's with all this crack stuff? I got it working on mine in a few minutes. The first time I tried, it messed up on me but it works now.
First, you have to download the base program and install it. The rule is, click the blue computer and the button on the left. Here's the URL...
http://chiba.cool.ne.jp/mackoy/stacks/bve1225.exe
Install it and download the Flushing Line add-on. In this case, it's in English and all you have to do is click "OK" Here's the URL...
http://www.crotrainz.com/Download/bve/NY-Subway/NY-Subway.exe
Now, you will need this site to get you started on working the menus and operation of the train itself.
http://www8.freeweb.ne.jp/business/creature/bve/howto_drive.htm
But, in reality, the basic are the reverse key, the master controller and the brake. Everything else is controlled by the conductor. When the program starts, select the Flushing Route an select what mode you'd like to use. For some reason, the "Real" mode crashes but the "Test" mode is okay. The modes are outlined in the URL above. Then click the left button and then keep clicking yes and yes and yes till you're at 42 Street-Times Square. Insert the reverse key by pressing the up arrow on your keyboard. Then, after the announcements are made, look at the Motorman's Indicaton. It's the light above the clock. Then the operation following is...
" / " key - This applies the brakes. An indicator on the right tells you how much pressure in numbers and goes from "?" to "8" with "8" being the most. There is also a dial below the window.
" . " - This releases the brake.
" A " - Moves controller toward "Coast" An indicator on the right next to the brake indicator tells which positon with ? being "Coast", 1 being "Switch", 2 being "Series", and 3 being "Parallel"
" Z " - Moves controller toward "Parallel"
I'm running mine on Windows 98 Second Editon. The english one.
The "recommended install" came with *.rw files that were in Japanese and the original download wouldn't go - it'd fail towards the end. I found it to be so screwed up I abandoned it although since we're in the software business, we DO have Japanese versions of Windows. So I loaded up a lab rat with that, unpacked everything and it worked like a champ though I can't read a word of kanji or katakana ...
[it'd fail towards the end]
That's where the icons would be installed. Otherwise, it'll work fine.
Well I'm running Windows ME 2000 and it won't work.
Too many seperate downloads, I liked Mechanik much better because it was less confusion but it gets stuck when I run it.
It's absolutely ridiculous that there isn't a GOOD english trainsim that will run in Windows 2000.
I just Microsoft would get their Trainsim in stores already.
Like Acela, it's gonna be a slow process in the making.
This country really lags when it comes to trains, both actual and simulated.
It's absolutely ridiculous that there isn't a GOOD english trainsim that will run in Windows 2000.
So quit griping, get out of your easy chair and hunker down over that fancy new computer you got and WRITE ONE!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I may know about computers but have no idea about how to write programs.
Just waiting for Trainsim. Where is the best place to purchase it?
Does the ERA or TA Museum have any field trips planned? I'll be in NYC that weekend and would like to hook up with them if they do.
Branford is having it's members day.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't have access to a car and I have to be back in the city late that afternoon. Rats! Maybe a field trip somewhere into Brooklyn for those not heading up to Branford?
Can you help me? I want some movie about NYC subway. I don’t know, which is good.
Try The Taking of Pelham 123.
Dan
Thank you Dan. In the Czech aren't all movie, which are in your country. I have to order on the amazon.com web, but I don't know if my DVD player or video recorder be able to play back it. You have NTST standard on the tape and region 1 on the DVD. The Taking of Pelham 123 in our cinemas and shops isn't. I now know that this movie is good and I try order. Thank you very much for your opinion.
Sorry to inform, DVD's are COUNTRY SPECIFIC ... in digital formats, there is no NTSC or PAL/M or SECAM, it will automatically transcode to your native television format (as well as plain old video) so that won't be the problem. The problem is the "country codes" embedded in the signals which, thanks to our own motion picture industry, will deny the signal based on where you live and what country your DVD player is configured as.
Never could figure how, if they're selling YOU a movie, why it is that after you've paid them they still won't let you see the movie. You will require a USA-coded DVD player to be able to see it though unless of course you're a Linux user and have the DeCSS programme for it. That of course is illegal to possess here. Ah yes, world politics in all its pristine ugliness.
But just wanted to warn you before you pay for it - make sure you can get your money back if it won't play over where you are.
I knew that it's some problem but not accurately. I thank you for information. From the offer on the nycsubway.org we have only movie Money Train.
It's not a bad movie actually ... if you are able to see it. Thugs take over a train and hold the passengers hostage for ransom. If you can find the movie "The Money Train" it has a bit more subway and does offer an insight as to the minds of some of the NYC transit authority's management ("That's *MY* train") ... not that Pelham 123 isn't a bad movie either. :)
But then, you know about parochial government official types. Hej.
I already saw Money Train. It produce just now on the DVD.
Then 123 won't be such a major loss if you can't get it to play. It was an OK movie in its time, but its time was a long time ago. :)
The "jam the controller with a stick" bit was cute ... though there were some technical "liberties" taken in that part of it ... still, if you can manage to see it, it's a decent movie to see once or twice.
Will you say a good word for me some documentary movie?
What few have been done have been on video ... suggest you come back while I tickle the other folks here ...
Did ANYONE record that TV show a month or so ago about the transit authority, the coney island yards and the system running? It was one of those cable channels ... TLC, A&E, one of those with the half hour programme on the subway system today? I'm sure this is what metroexplorer is looking for ...
Most American movies which claim to have pictures of the NYC subway far more often used the Los Angeles "not really here" subway or filmed in the Toronto (Canada) subway since getting film permits in NYC is too expensive for most movies ... so what you're likely to see in most of them isn't NYC at all ... that cable show though DID have real NYC footage, had interviews with some of the folks who actually work there and was pretty interesting even if it didn't have a plot. :)
Thing you that better is buy some book? I want get knowledge of NYC with some pictures from history.
WEll ... if THAT'S all you want, I hope you've found some time to sit right where you are and really take in Dave Pirmann's site right here ... nycsubway.org has the most comprehensive "everything" there is ... and as a former employee of the NYCTA, I can attest to its accuracy ... it's all right here. Why you can even download movies of nearly a hundred years ago from here, linking to the government-operated Smithsonian and archives from the Library of Congress ... you're in just the right place for that!
Crap! Got the link hosed there ... should have been:
nycsubway.org
Or you could just have told him to click on the link on the top of every single page on the site... ;-)
Heh. Yeah, but that'd be too easy ... wouldn't have given me the chance to do a proper grovel before the ghods of the mighty SQL. :)
Here's a list of movies with subways.
Class of '44, the sequel to Summer of '42, has a great shot of the museum Triplex train. At least two of the three surviving units were used, 6095 being one of them. They also restored one of the stations on the Sea Beach line to the style and hue of the 1940s.
When you say you want a movie about the subways, do you mean a movie about the operation and/or building of the subway, a documentary, or do you mean fictional movies with the subway used as a backdrop?
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> I want some movie about NYC subway <<<
If you want tapes that show the subway in operation as opposed to a commercial movie, there are some advertized on this site.
Tom
Thank you everyone for your opinion. The movie from amazon is only English language. It's very heavy for me. If I shall buy it, I want know if is really good. Should I could borow in video distributors in the Czech so isn't problem.
The Arts and Lifestyle section of Sunday's Daily News has an article misleadingly titled "Subway Conductors" about the musicians involved in the MTA's Music Under New York program.
I come across a guy who plays the violin, I do not think he is part of that MTA program, at WTC during the late morning into the afternoon. He sounds damn good! But on the PM, a couple of times a week, some dude with an MTA banner supposely plays the guitar. All he does is make a lot of noise and he sure as hell can't sing! And to top it all off, this guy has the case open for people to throw in money!
I like musicians in MBTA stations (And the interactive art at Kendall M.I.T.) It make the station a lot better. You shoud see for yourself.
"And the interactive art at Kendall M.I.T."
That is really cool! I've played the chimes there. Of course, one side always seems to be out of order (snapped cable, I think).
Anybody with enough gumption to play music (even if it isn't always on key) in the subways will get a quarter or two off of me. On the other hand, I personally believe "Spare change...spare change" is beneath everybody's dignity. Good thing there's a First Amendment; otherwise there's more than one person who'd like to give the average panhandler a swift kick in the rear and off the subway.
I remember listening to a person in the subway playing a stringed instrument (the name escapes me at the moment) that sounded like a person crying, it was cool. On the Boston T, there was this girl playing a violin at Harvard station. The echo throughout the station made it sound even better. There used to be an old guy in Atlanta that played a saw, he was really good, he was almost a celebrity, too bad he was killed.
>>>I remember listening to a person in the subway playing a stringed instrument (the name escapes me at the moment) that sounded like a person crying, it was cool. <<<
A Zither, perhaps? Just a guess. Was this at 34th st IND?
Peace,
ANDEE
PS---i find the wailing of this device to be quite annoying...different strokes different folks...etc
Peace,
ANDEE
No, it wasn't a Zither, it was more long and narrow, kind of like a guitar. I really can't think of the name. Oh well.
It definitly wasn't at an IND station, this was during my first trip there and I never rde the IND that time. I think it was an IRT near downtown.
There is a subway musician in the passageway between the 42nd Street station on the 6th Ave. IND to the IRT Corona Flushing line as a rule. The musician and the instrument he plays has varied over the years but there is almost always a musician at that spot.
BMTJeff
I can't seem to understand how you railfans tolerate these so-called subway "musicians". I find them very annoying and rude. After a hard days work, I don't feel I need to be subjected to that noise. Don't mistake me, I love music, I have hundreds of cd's, but a subway station is no place for musicians. Music is very subjective. Not everyone has the same taste. Street musicians belong just there the street, because if don't want to hear them, you can walk away. Where in the subway you are confined and have to put up with it.
[Where in the subway you are confined and have to put up with it. ]
I don't get it too, there's no radio playing but there are musicians, I usually move as far away from them as I can.
Arti
AMEN, to that!
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't seem to understand how you railfans tolerate these so-called subway "musicians". I find them very annoying and rude. After a hard days work, I don't feel I need to be subjected to that noise.
Don't mistake me, I love music, I have hundreds of cd's, but a subway station is no place for musicians. Music is very subjective. Not everyone has the same taste. Street musicians belong just there the street, because if don't want to hear them, you can walk away. Where in the subway you are confined and have to put up with it.
Officially sanctioned subway musicians are subject to a variety of restrictions designed to limit their intrusiveness. Performing on subway trains is strictly forbidden, as is (IIRC) performing on platforms. As a result, most of them perform in station mezzanine and passageway areas, where most people are just passing through. It's not as if riders are forced to listen to music for long periods of time.
Of course, musicians can be encountered on platforms and sometimes even on trains, places where they're a lot harder to avoid. But they're not there legally.
I don't find the musicians annoying. I think they shed light to the enviorment.
Just a question:
How important are programs like MTA's Music Under New York? I'm asking because there are almost no subway musicians in Philly. Could a similar program down here help remedy this?
Mark
By the way, did anybody hear the Prairie Home Companion episode a few years ago which had a battle of the subway bands? The winner was a Peruvian band called Chiyo Yaco (sp?). I remember they were really good.
Mark
I'm at Coney Island at the moment and while I was riding the "D" train to Coney Island I saw R-68 #2755 and noticed that the font on the number plates was in the style that they started to use for the R-1/9s. It was quite interesting to see an R-68 with the old style number plates. Some of you might know that R-68 #2755 was damaged in shipment and wasn't placed in service for the first time until 1993.
BMTJeff
BMTJeff,
The side with the odd type numbers is the side that was struck by the flatcar. Someone stole the original number boards. Those are stick on numbers. The other side of the car had the original R-68 number boards
Hope this helps
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't realize that R-68 # 2755 had two different styles of number boards. It makes the car even more interesting. Maybe just for fun they should replace the remaining original number boards with the stick on number for uniformity. Then that car can definitely stick out from the others by sporting the numbers in the style of the original R series cars (R-1/9s).
BMTJeff
Better look quick. New number boards have been ordered for the car. When the car was in recently for maintenance, we found that the stick-on numbers are beginning to peel away.
TrainDude,
New number boards were ordered ? I assume from a private contractor. Does the TA still have a sign shop that makes porcelain signs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No! The sign shop in East NY does not make porcelain signs but they do make some nice steel ones.
Just for a long shot but slim chance...possible that the plate was from AB type 2755? When they added number plates to those cars instead of just the painted on numbers the plates looked much like R1-9 and other plates. I doubt it but just a thought.
According to Bill Newkirk and some others two of the number boards on car # 2755 are of the stick on variety. Apparently they are ib the beginnings of peeling off and they are expected to be replaced in a short time with real number plates.
BMTJeff
Apparently that's the gist of the NY Post story today, which says the Port Authority plans to buy $64 million in rollinmg stock that not only doesn't meet FRA standards, barring it from intermixing with LIRR service to Manhattan, but doesn't even meet subway standards. That would make a future connection to the A line at Howard Beach or the E in Jamaica impossible, unless they are willing to scrap or sell the PA's rolling stock just a few years after it arrives.
The story compares it to Robert Moses and his low-arched stone bridges on the LI parkways, so at least somebody at the Post has been reading up on Moses.
Airtrain equipment can't be used for service into Manhattan
[Apparently that's the gist of the NY Post story today, which says the Port Authority plans to buy $64 million in rollinmg stock that not only doesn't meet FRA standards, barring it from intermixing with LIRR service to Manhattan, but doesn't even meet subway standards. That would make a future connection to the A line at Howard Beach or the E in Jamaica impossible, unless they are willing to scrap or sell the PA's rolling stock just a few years after it arrives.]
Good for Pataki! I wish we saw this side of him more often.
Meanwhile, I wonder if in its strange attempt to screw people from Manhattan the PA has screwed people from Long Island instead. Wouldn't it be best all around to have Airtrain stop at Jamaica and then head in to Manhattan? But with all the rolling stock and the Jamaica station turned the wrong way (if I doubted before that they did that on purpose I don't anymore), how long will service to Jamaica last?
I see that they're talking about 2005 too. Excellent! Guess that means they'll tell not just the PA but the LIRR to stop playing bureaucratic turf war and accomodate the trains.
Two questions:
1) How does Pataki plan to make room in NYP for his new trains? The station is packed to capacity, and the thinking has been that East Side Access has to be in place first (2011?) before direct service from JFK to Penn Station is possible. How do they make it in 2005?
2) Assuming there is space at NYP, will Pataki's FRA compliant trains be allowed to run with non-FRA compliant AirTrains? I'm not sure this issue has come up before in the country. The Pataki trains have to be beefy enough to run with LIRR, but not so beefy that they endanger the current AirTrains. Can it be done?
[1) How does Pataki plan to make room in NYP for his new trains? The station is packed to capacity, and the thinking has been that East Side Access has to be in place first (2011?) before direct service from JFK to Penn Station is possible. How do they make it in 2005?]
I was wondering that too -- not because I don't think it's possible, but because I'm not sure what he intends to do. I suspect it will be brute force, but there are lots of possibilities. One idea that springs to mind -- right now, NJT trains run through to the yard. Why not take some of the NJT trains through to JFK?
Actually, I'd rather see Airtrain come in via Atlantic Avenue and travel up the Broadway line to Laguardia. That would give you access to Lower Manhattan and Midtown West and East, while connecting both airports and potentially providing other neat services as well. I'm not sure why I don't hear this idea mentioned.
[2) Assuming there is space at NYP, will Pataki's FRA compliant trains be allowed to run with non-FRA compliant AirTrains? I'm not sure this issue has come up before in the country. The Pataki trains have to be beefy enough to run with LIRR, but not so beefy that they endanger the current AirTrains. Can it be done?]
I don't think the FRA would be a problem. I think the real risk here is that a subway or LRV might collide with a locomotive or spilled freight, rather than with a reinforced commuter car.
[Why not take some of the NJT trains through to JFK?]
Interesting idea, but wouldn't NJT need dual mode beyond Sunnyside? And then a triple mode to use the linear induction system of AirTrain? If those issues can be licked, why not just run dual-mode LIRR trains up on the AirTrain row?
I focus on the NYP aspect because the story specifically calls it out: "Gov. Pataki has pledged to create a one-seat rail connection between the airport and Penn Station by 2005."
[I'd rather see Airtrain come in via Atlantic Avenue and travel up the Broadway line to Laguardia]
Would Atlantic Ave. trigger FRA again? Interesting idea to use subways -- they aren't in FRA's jursidiction (though PATH, adjacent to commuter rail, is).
I'd heard earlier that they are having a real problem here, and was gearing up to do a post on this issue anyway. A poser. I think FRA views itself regulating those rails, whether it is freight or passsenger, and won't let anything light on it.
[I don't think the FRA would be a problem. I think the real risk here is that a subway or LRV might collide with a locomotive or spilled freight, rather than with a reinforced commuter car.]
So a certification that no freight runs on LIRR during AirTrain hours would be enough for FRA (like what they did for the diesel LRVs on the Camden-Trenton line being built)? As in my earlier comment, I don't think this is enough for FRA.
FRA has a reputation of erring (too?) greatly on the side of safety. But then those European crashes with lighter trains and high casualties may look like vindication for the US approach.
[Interesting idea, but wouldn't NJT need dual mode beyond Sunnyside? And then a triple mode to use the linear induction system of AirTrain? If those issues can be licked, why not just run dual-mode LIRR trains up on the AirTrain row?]
AFAIK the turning radius and weight limitations mean that existing LIRR and NJT coaches would be unable to enter Airtrain anyway, and it would be easy enough to make a new vehicle dual mode. I don't think linear induction would be feasible: I'm assuming they'll add a third rail and just use the traction motors, though I suppose they could add two more shoes for the Airtrain contacts.
[I'd rather see Airtrain come in via Atlantic Avenue and travel up the Broadway line to Laguardia]
[Would Atlantic Ave. trigger FRA again? Interesting idea to use subways -- they aren't in FRA's jursidiction (though PATH, adjacent to commuter rail, is).
I'd heard earlier that they are having a real problem here, and was gearing up to do a post on this issue anyway. A poser. I think FRA views itself regulating those rails, whether it is freight or passsenger, and won't let anything light on it.]
Trouble with Airtrain? I'd be interested in reading about that.
I can think of several options, two of which avoid the FRA issue entirely:
1. Half of the Broadway line could become FRA, tying into Atlantic Avenue at one end and going to Laguardia via the Hell's Gate line with a free cross-platform transfer to the subway. The rest of the capacity could be used for something else -- a Queens Superexpress, or downtown access for dual mode Metro North or New Jersey Transit vehicles. If they interoperated, that single subway line could provide 30 tph LIRR direct and connecting/JFK Airtrain service to Lower Manhattan along with 30 tph total NJT, Metro North, and Laguardia Airtrain service. If you just tacked the Airtrain coaches onto the end of a full length train and added a few special stations you wouldn't eat into LIRR capacity at all, and you could provide special seating arrangements/baggage accomodations and guaranteed seats suited to air travelers. (Even check-in on board the train to save extra time!) Some of the trains could even go through to Newark without wasting tunnel capacity.
--The Atlantic Avenue line could be converted to subway use and taken out of the FRA's jursidiction. Then the LIRR shuttles could be replaced by high-amenity NYCTA trains, which would continue on into Airtrain or go to Laurelton. There are advantages in operating costs here, but it's not as versatile as the first option. Among other things, short of building a new subway line along the main line and making the Rockaway ROW part of the subway system there would be little possibility of a direct JFK-LGA connection via Rockaway or the Freight Line if Airtrain couldn't handle FRA-compliant vehicles.
--Mixed mode use. I think it makes the most sense, but if the FRA won't play ball, Option 1 would be almost as good, because I don't think the subway really has to go into the terminals -- a free cross-platform transfer would be fine for airport employees, who don't have to carry bags.
[So a certification that no freight runs on LIRR during AirTrain hours would be enough for FRA (like what they did for the diesel LRVs on the Camden-Trenton line being built)? As in my earlier comment, I don't think this is enough for FRA.
FRA has a reputation of erring (too?) greatly on the side of safety. But then those European crashes with lighter trains and high casualties may look like vindication for the US approach.]
Someone was describing just such a system recently -- apparently the FRA allows some localities to run freight and light rail (!) to run on the same tracks, as long as they don't run at the same time. And apparently sometimes they do, in spite of the regulations. But that wasn't what I had in mind. The Airtrain vehicles themselves would be FRA compliant, and run under FRA regs when they were on FRA ROW.
[Trouble with Airtrain? I'd be interested in reading about that.]
Trouble in the sense they can't have AirTrain run on LIRR because of FRA, and they have tried without success (at least so far) to get around the issue.
[apparently the FRA allows some localities to run freight and light rail (!) to run on the same tracks, as long as they don't run at the same time. And apparently sometimes they do, in spite of the regulations]
Almost every LRT system in the US mixes with freight. They have temporal separation, with freight running late at night. If they ran at the same time, FRA would shut them down immediately. They're pretty hyper about this -- with good reason. The LRT operator would also be assuming enormous liability. I doubt it.
---------
Summarizing my two questions, I hear the answer to #2 is MTA could run some new dual mode, FRA-compliant beefy vehicle onto AirTrain tracks, and they only need PA approval to do so. Pataki half controls the PA, and NJ shouldn't care about this. I'd put my money on the engineers figuring this out.
MTA could likely do that procurement by 2005. They'd also need to build the direct physical connection from LIRR tracks to AirTrain tracks at Jamaica. (Out of what pots of money?)
But the answer to #1 remains elusive. Perhaps the Guv plans on telling his LIRR they have to give up some of their NYP capacity on their (very heavily used) platforms.
Unless Amtrak is willing to make way on their (much less used) platforms. Maybe with all the Farley wheeling and dealing, NY State made a deal.
[Trouble in the sense they can't have AirTrain run on LIRR because of FRA, and they have tried without success (at least so far) to get around the issue.]
Interesting. I'd be curious to know what's going on.
[Almost every LRT system in the US mixes with freight. They have temporal separation, with freight running late at night. If they ran at the same time, FRA would shut them down immediately. They're pretty hyper about this -- with good reason. The LRT operator would also be assuming enormous liability. I doubt it.]
Maybe whoever posted that item will comment. IIRC it was in the news.
[Summarizing my two questions, I hear the answer to #2 is MTA could run some new dual mode, FRA-compliant beefy vehicle onto AirTrain tracks, and they only need PA approval to do so. Pataki half controls the PA, and NJ shouldn't care about this. I'd put my money on the engineers figuring this out.
MTA could likely do that procurement by 2005. They'd also need to build the direct physical connection from LIRR tracks to AirTrain tracks at Jamaica. (Out of what pots of money?)]
IIRC the figure was something like $200 million.
[But the answer to #1 remains elusive. Perhaps the Guv plans on telling his LIRR they have to give up some of their NYP capacity on their (very heavily used) platforms.
Unless Amtrak is willing to make way on their (much less used) platforms. Maybe with all the Farley wheeling and dealing, NY State made a deal.]
I have a feeling it's going to be brute force with the LIRR. Which is a shame, because the LIRR doesn't exactly have capacity to spare and Airtrain frequencies will probably be too low.
I don't understand Amtrak and Penn. Given their financial straights, wouldn't it make sense for them to rent out some of that space instead of hogging it? But then, I don't understand why commuter RR's are still run as if they were long distance lines -- if they had subway style doors and multiple stops, they could use the full capacity of the existing tracks.
[Trouble in the sense they can't have AirTrain run on LIRR because of FRA, and they have tried without success (at least so far) to get around the issue.]
Interesting. I'd be curious to know what's going on.
[Almost every LRT system in the US mixes with freight. They have temporal separation, with freight running late at night. If they ran at the same time, FRA would shut them down immediately. They're pretty hyper about this -- with good reason. The LRT operator would also be assuming enormous liability. I doubt it.]
Maybe whoever posted that item will comment. IIRC it was in the news.
[Summarizing my two questions, I hear the answer to #2 is MTA could run some new dual mode, FRA-compliant beefy vehicle onto AirTrain tracks, and they only need PA approval to do so. Pataki half controls the PA, and NJ shouldn't care about this. I'd put my money on the engineers figuring this out.
MTA could likely do that procurement by 2005. They'd also need to build the direct physical connection from LIRR tracks to AirTrain tracks at Jamaica. (Out of what pots of money?)]
IIRC the figure was something like $200 million.
[But the answer to #1 remains elusive. Perhaps the Guv plans on telling his LIRR they have to give up some of their NYP capacity on their (very heavily used) platforms.
Unless Amtrak is willing to make way on their (much less used) platforms. Maybe with all the Farley wheeling and dealing, NY State made a deal.]
I have a feeling it's going to be brute force with the LIRR. Which is a shame, because the LIRR doesn't exactly have capacity to spare and Airtrain frequencies will probably be too low.
I don't understand Amtrak and Penn. Given their financial straights, wouldn't it make sense for them to rent out some of that space instead of hogging it? But then, I don't understand why commuter RR's are still run as if they were long distance lines -- if they had subway style doors and multiple stops, they could use the full capacity of the existing tracks.
Overall, Airtrain strikes me as a perfect example of the sort of interagency squabbling that we have to get away from: it seems that the Port Authority doesn't want to go to Manhattan, the LIRR doesn't want to go the airport, the FRA doesn't want anyone to go anywhere, and Amtrak wants to use their side of Penn Station as a yard . . .
I think what they should have done was revitalize the abandoned LIRR ROW which runs through the neighborhoods of Woodhaven and Ozone Park Queens. Building the Air Train over an Expressway is kinda silly, and not to mention that building this thing, the traffic its causing is awful (In my opinion). From Howard Beach station the IND A (Really) only uses two tracks. There are two more that for the most part really arent used. The Air Train should utilize the two center tracks and run along the IND 'A' until it reaches Liberty Ave where at this point the IND A veers off to the west and the Air Train could continue north until it reaches Atlantic Ave. It could then go underground to connect to the Atlantic Ave branch of the LIRR and contine to Jamaica Station(Or if not Flatbush Station in downtown Brooklyn).It would take a little more time. But In my opinion that would seem like a better route
[But In my opinion that would seem like a better route.]
I think pretty much everybody agrees with you, but the expressway route is pretty much a done deal.
Yes, let the Jamaica via Van Wyck route be, it does serve Long Island residents and LIRR customers from points east.
wayne
"I think pretty much everybody agrees with you, but the expressway route is pretty much a done deal. "
Think again. Building a train down the middle of an expressway is a no-brainer, and had Robert Moses not obstructed it, it would have been done years ago. The Van Wyck is actually the most efficient way into the airport - the furthest ROW from people's homes, the most compatible with communities, the least amount of construction headaches.
Now, I would agree that it would be nice to to be able to run standard subway cars or LIRR MUs down this route. Extending the "E" train under Van Wyck all the way into the airport (with a station or two along the way to serve Ozone Park etc.) and having the on-airport AirTrain loop meet it would have been nice - but expensive as all hell.
I'm not against revitalizing the Rockaway branch - maybe one day it will happen. I won't stand in the way. But environmentally, the Van Wyck ROW is much less intrusive. And the Port Authority actually did a great job putting in the train without bothering either residents or commuters a lot - but if you keep your eyes closed, you can see what you want, I guess.
I hate to say it, but this obsession over the Rockaway line (and the obsession they have with PA-bashing) issue is making a few people (like CBT) really look like a bunch of idiots with their heads stuck deep in the Jamaica marshes.
You guys can continue playing with this - but maybe we need to move on with our lives...
Big NIMBY problems with the old Rockaway Branch. Refer to the recent coverage in the Daily News on the CBT proposal to restart LIRR service to Rockaways. That branch will have its day again. But not yet.
Beyond the NIMBY factor, I don't see a big difference between the two. If anything, a slight edge to having traffic below being given a reminder on why they should be in transit. As they are stuck in gridlock, every few minutes a train whooshes by.
The bottom line is, given today's environmental and financial constraints, whatever can get built in this day and age is a miracle. And Van Wyck got through the hurdles and is almost done.
When did that Daily News Article come out? I want to look at it on the website
http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-03-13/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-103129.asp
http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-03-19/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-103849.asp
I see they mentioned the possibility of an FRA waiver:
"Under federal railroad regulations, subway and LIRR trains are not allowed to operate on the same tracks, but a waiver can be obtained 'if the dual service can be done safely,' Guild said.
" 'It's been done in other cities,' Guild said. 'By disregarding the possibility of obtaining the waiver under the regulations, they have priced the thing out of sight.' "
I wish CBT luck. They have the communities that would be served along the alignment, the MTA and the FRA all arrayed against them.
Let's talk Rockaway Branch after 2nd Ave., ESA, and LGA access are funded. Not a top priority, given a half century of pent up demand.
[Not a top priority, given a half century of pent up demand.]
I really wish they could reprivatize this stuff, with subsidies if necessary. That's one of the things I like about the State's Airtrain proposal.
[That's one of the things I like about the State's Airtrain proposal. ]
Actually my understanding of the NYP article was that the PA wants the Manhattan run to be privatly operated. Actually kind of Larry's model, the ROW is in place, now operate the transit on it.
Arti
To reopen the Rockaway, they would still need to do a full-blown environmental process. If Airtrain is going to run to Manhattan in '05, it will need to be on ROW that exists.
I don't think that they meant Rockaway line. IMO the article implied that the train would run on current LIRR after Jamaica bypassing it.
Arti
My mistake. That's the way I read it as well.
The cool thing about it that it would be the first for profit rail line for almost half a century!
Arti
The slant of the article was negative. But we knew the bad stuff already. The news (for me) was the rather specific commitment for a one-seat ride out of NYP by 2005.
[The news (for me) was the rather specific commitment for a one-seat ride out of NYP by 2005. ]
Same here, surprise! Of course the covert things usually get done so... :) I don't remember that being even hinted here as a remote possibility. Yes, I'm really surprised.
Arti
CBT is well-intentioned, but they have a history of not being able to get along with anybody. Have a proposal? CBT has to tell you why your proposal won't work and their proposal will. Never mind that they burn bridges right and left.
The lesson here? When you can't cooperate with anyone,don't listen to anyone and harp constantly, don't be surprised when people stop listening to you.
OH BOTHER the damned NIMBYS TO HELL WITH THEM ALL - reopen the thing, grind up the trees into mulch and get the FRA waiver to run both the NYCT and LIRR on the two-track section of the branch I am sick of the numbskulls that be thumbing their pointed noses at what is obviously the best route to the airport! And as far as the environmental impact study WHAT FOR? We're not talking diesel locomotives here, we are talking electric MU commuter and city transit trains! Trains don't themselves pollute; they DO use electricity (which burns fuel, which pollutes). But we DO need a one-seater into Manhattan and not the Toonerville trolley that is the current AirTrain.
wayne
"OH BOTHER the damned NIMBYS TO HELL WITH THEM ALL - reopen the thing, grind up the trees into mulch and get the FRA waiver to run both the NYCT and LIRR on the two-track section of the branch I am sick of the numbskulls that be thumbing their pointed noses at what is obviously the best route to the airport! And as far as the environmental impact study WHAT FOR? We're not talking diesel locomotives here, we are talking electric MU commuter and city transit trains! Trains don't themselves pollute; they DO use electricity (which burns fuel, which pollutes). But we DO need a one-seater into Manhattan and not the Toonerville trolley that is the current AirTrain."
Would you like me to hold up the windmill for you so you can practice jousting at it? :-)
You DO realize that "Toonerville trolley" status requires that it MEET ALL TRAINS ... does it?
Where's Mark Green? FALSE ADVERTISING! CONSUMER FRAUD! WHERE'S MY GUN? :)
At least the P.A. built something,which is more than I can say for the T.A.[i.e Second Avevenue Subway]
Good idea for the Brooklyn leg of the service; they would have to reinstitute that grade crossing in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel west of the Woodhaven underground station; ramp's there, probably switches and signals too; and while they're at it, REOPEN the Woodhaven stations both of 'em.
wayne /mrSlantR40\
I love the R40M's too!
I wonder if that was the real reason the T.A didnt or wouldnt compleate the Archer Avenue subway's last leg down the Atlantic branch to South Jamaica was of this so called turf war between companies?
"Meanwhile, I wonder if in its strange attempt to screw people from Manhattan the PA has screwed people from Long Island instead. Wouldn't it be best all around to have Airtrain stop at Jamaica and then head in to Manhattan?"
That could happen after ESA is copmpleted.
I see that they're talking about 2005 too. Excellent! Guess that means they'll tell not just the PA but the LIRR to stop playing bureaucratic turf war and accomodate the trains.
Yeah, good sentiment...
That's not news; AirTrain's rolling stock was not intended for use on LIRR or subway ROW. A hybrid vehicle may be ordered if and when, after ESA is complete, that kind of service is desired.
As mentioned in a prior post a rode on the Sea Beach express tracks between 36th street and stillwell Ave. A found the open cut ride to be very enjoyable and a like the view of the yard. However it seems that the NYC mta has forgotten about the line I thought the subways were now grafti free there still seemed to be plenty of gaffiti on the walls along the open cut. also many of the stations seem to be crummbling and I didn't see one that had been modernized. Is there any reason for the lack of express stops along the route? I think a full time express would be more successful if there was another stop or two. Is there any way more express stops cold be built?
The express tracks on the Sea Beach Line were built to provide a fast route for the Franklin-Nassau service, which was the latter-day successor to the Coney Island Express, dating from elevated car days.
When the NX ran at the end of the '60s, it possibly could have been saved from discontinuance by making local stops to Kings Highway, then express to Manhattan, but the TA wasn't having that. It could still be done now.
Kings Highway and New Utrecht would be the logical stops for the Sea Beach express, if it had been designed right from the beginning. Other than switching to the express tracks after KH and bypassing New Utrecht, the alternatives would be to either lower the express tracks at those to stations to provide platforms beneath the current local tracks or to put a temporary platform over the local tracks, tear out the current KH and New Utretch local platforms and build permanent island express platforms there.
Since the MTA in conjunction with the DOT has done such a great job dissuading southwest Brooklyn riders from wanting to take the Sea Beach over the past decade, I doubt the bean counters would be able to justify enough ridership for such an endavour. However, if the next mayor is a big Mets fan and Fred Wilpon wants faster train service to get fans from Manhattan and norht Brooklyn to that new minor league ballpark at Coney Island...
I guess we can hold out hope on that score. The Sea Beach and the Mets. Wow! Two of my loves, although the Blue and Orange lost a three game set to Montreal of all people after having finally winning a series in Atlanta. Yes, maybe Fred Wilpon can prevail on the TA to do something about the Sea Beach Express to Coney Island. Wouldn't that do wonders for my disposition.
They will probably run a West End Exp or Q Express, since the 4th track on the Slow Beach is gone. It would be cheaper. But I doubt they will do either one, since it is a Minor League Team and the seating is not as great as Yankee or Shea Stadiums. Unless the Mets move to Brooklyn and come the new Bums
The Mets move to Brooklyn? It will never happen---but it would be all time if they did. Did you know that in a poll taken in 1999, the Mets outpolled the Yankees in fan support only in Brooklyn? Not in Queens, not in Manhattan, and certainly not in the Bronx. Of course, if the Mets ever regain the dominance they had in the mid-80's and the Yanks go back into the tank, I'd imagine the Mets would regain superiority in Queens, and maybe Staten Island as well.
The Mets actually became THE New York team in the late 60s, especially in 1969. There was a book that came out back then, The Year the Mets Lost Last Place, which chronicled the period from July 8 thru July 16, 1969, and the Yankees are always referred to as "the other New York team".
I'd love to see those days again. I was only a peripheral Mets fan in those days, having pretty much written off New York completely as my native town. It was in 1973 that I really got interested in the city again and it had to do with the Mets struggling along at 500 but winding up winning the division and pennant with only four games total over 500. They almost won the World Series, too. The next year I came back to NY for the first time in 20 years. For the record, I became an inveterate Mets fan for keeps in 1984.
The city went totally bananas when the Mets won it all in 1969. One Madison Ave. bus driver even went so far as to announce, "Everybody on FREE!" I wonder if he was still driving a bus after that. I remember October 16 as thought it were yesterday. I got home from school just in time to catch the ninth inning of Game 5, and was late for a drum lesson because I stuck around the TV to watch the fans tear up the field at Shea.
Did the Madison Avenue bus go both ways on Madison, or was it one way already?
Yes it could Paul and I'm glad there are a few of the boys on this line who are getting the message. The TA needs to have an epiphany on this subject but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen.
Yes it could Paul and I'm glad there are a few of the boys on this line who are getting the message. The TA needs to have an epiphany on this subject but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen.
Whats wrong with the graffiti, it aint on the cars.
Why is graffiti on the cars more offensive then graffiti anywhere else?
Oh because they try sooooo hard to keep it off them
It doesn't belong on my Sea Beach line in any way, shape or form. Put the graffiti on your favorite line if you wish, but keep it off my Sea Beach line. You dig?
Dand124: Now you know what has been raising my hackles for the past two years on this website. The TA has ignored the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn and I take it as a personal afront since it is very obvious to all that I have a visceral love for that line. Just look at my handle. Yes, the line could be upgraded and should be. And regardless of what my friend Pork says, it could become express in rush hours as well as local if they would invest some money and fix the express tracks heading to Coney Island. But they won't do that, the rotten bums. And I sit here typing this and getting more pissed off my the second.
Dand124: Now you know what has been raising my hackles for the past two years on this website. The TA has ignored the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn and I take it as a personal afront since it is very obvious to all that I have a visceral love for that line. Just look at my handle. Yes, the line could be upgraded and should be. And regardless of what my friend Pork says, it could become express in rush hours as well as local if they would invest some money and fix the express tracks heading to Coney Island. But they won't do that, the rotten bums. And I sit here typing this and getting more pissed off by the second.
Give it up Fred, the Sea Beach is forever to be the local that it is and the TA will not up grade it to a thru Exp. They tried it once and did not work. No stations between 36-Coney Island is the problem as a Exp.
It's a nonstop run from 59th St. to Stillwell Ave. As was said in an earlier post, one or two express stops at Kings Highway and perhaps New Utrecht would make express service a much more attractive venue.
Save your breath Steve, Bob is beyond redemption. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a paid informer for the TA. Wouldn't they go together like hand and glove? Of course the Sea Beach could be made into an express in Brooklyn. Build two overpasses at New Utrecht and Kings Highway for stops and make the rest of it express between 36th Street and Stillwell Avenue. However, we must give old Bob a taste of credit. He actually came out and said what everyone worth a damn already knew---The D Brighton local is one big pig of a line, it's stops barely a block long. Talk about boredom. Well, at least our friend Bob has finally seen the light. ABOUT TIME, eh?
The Franklin shuttle seemed like a very nice but very short line. Every station along the line were modernized. What is the reason for most of the line being single tracked?
Money.
Correct, If the TA had had their way they would've closed the Franklin Shuttle. Community pressure prevented this from happening.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ain't communit pressure a NICE thing....:-)
BMTman
Too bad it wasn't around in 1969: if it were the Myrtle Ave. "el" would have been saved. But then diesel fuel was cheap and the phrase "air pollution" wasn't invented yet.
Same thing with the Third Ave. el in the Bronx. Of course, back then Chrystie St. connection and the Sixth Ave. express track projects had just opened, work was set to begin on the 63rd St. "super express" line to Jamaica, and work was also getting started on the Second Ave. subway, so people still had reason to believe that the old els would be replaced by the new underground lines.
We're older and wiser now, and know that when the el leaves, odds are about 10-1 that nothing but a bus service (if that) is going to take its place.
Well, after hearing so much about the Railfan windows I was disappointed with it. I prefer the railfan window I get on the blue line in Boston through the transverse cab. On the Redbird I had to stand up to get a good view out the railfan window and there were plenty of seats available. On the blue line a can sit down and still get a good view.
The Redbird railfan windows are better than none at all, which is the comparison usually mentioned here.
The much-maligned M-4's on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Subway Elevated line have outstanding railfan windows; I got good video's from the second seat and pleasant conversation with the woman in the front seat, while a fellow SubTalker made good use of the railfan window in the front door while standing.
One of the best railfan window sights I've ever seen! Coming in from 69th St. Terminal on the el, Center City rises up into view straight ahead. It looks like the Emerald City! (Market Street below, however, is no Munchkinland.) :O)
You are so right. That is an absolutely beautiful sight to see center city rise up as you leave 63rd, 60th, etc. The M-4's have the best railfan window in the business and I love to ride them!
Chuck Greene
It looks like the Emerald City!
It looks like Seattle? :-)
j/k
I prefer stormdoor RFW's because it give you a good view of their entire track ahead. Right or left aligned RFW's will usually limited view of the other side of the RoW.
When compiling my track diagrams I couldn't read the signal #'s from the window seat. Also when you are standing you get a greater dose of forces that makes the ride all the more exciting.
absolutely !! i agree with your post 100%!!
In the older cabs you had a "jumpseat" that folded up onto the wall behind you ... most motormen would sit throughout most of the trip. I usually kept mine folded back and stood most of the run ... bodyweight had a way of kicking back the brake handle to smooth stops when you pulled too hard, at least to my mind (one of my many bad habits) ... I've seen some of the newer cabs with their cushy seats. I'd almost worry about nodding off. :)
About the only time I'd drop my seat was holding lights or the bridge. And of course waiting for buzz-buzz ...
it does look better on video the transverse cab blocks off the view !!
Yesterday for the first time I got to ride on the redbirds for the first time I rode on mostly world fair redbirds on the 7 line but also on one mainline redbird on the 5. While the redbirds look nicer on the outside on the inside I didn't like them as much. Also I thought there was some sort of emergency at every third rail gap when the lights went out. The ride wasn't very smooth and rather slow. And there weren't enough windows on the Main line redbirds.
>>>Also I thought there was some sort of emergency at every third rail gap when the lights went out. <<<
There was a time (before battery backup) when all NYC subwaystraind did this, it was part of thier charm and some people miss this.
>>>And there weren't enough windows on the Main line redbirds. <<<
Mainline redbirds have the same amount of space devoted to windows, although, they are configured diferently.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch. (=
Give them a break, it's not like they're new. Some mainliners are entering their fourth decade of faithful service. As for the lights, that's a tourist detector. And the ML windows lend a nostalgic charm and remind us that we didn't always have big pretty picture windows.
Dan
Refbirds, mainline or Worlds fair, have more window than Silverbirds. Redbird door pockets are only as wide as necesary, and there are the equivalent of 3 windows. The R62's have wider door pockets and the equivalent od 2 windows.
The R-38 has larger windows than the R-32, probably have more window space than redbirds.
My ride on the Brighton was very disappointing It was very slow because it took for ever to accelerate and brake. And the stations seemed very close together the Franklin seem a little faster.
One word. HIPPO.
The D brighton local uses slow R68 trains, which lumber along at a walking pace.
Take the Q which runs during the week. It is an express and uses R40 Slants which leave the Hippos in the dust.
That is total bull. Any trains that run on the local would be slower.
And Hippopotami can run faster than many animals.
I agree,with Pork Chops, just check out the distance between local stations on the Brighton. Most stops are no more then 1800 feet between them. The widest stretch I think is between Newkirk and Ave H which I think may be only 4 blocks and going up or down hill, and M-Kings Hwy which is 43 1/2 blocks..
Well it finally comes out Bob. You finally admit what the rest of the intelligent guys have been saying all along. The Brighton local, or the D for drivel, is a slow moving piece of junk. Congrats. I owed you that one. The Q, on the other hand, I have to admit, is a good ride.
I agree,with Pork Chops, just check out the distance between local stations on the Brighton. Most stops are no more then 1800 feet between them. The widest stretch I think is between Newkirk and Ave H which I think may be only 4 blocks and going up or down hill, and M-Kings Hwy which is 3 1/2 blocks..
Assume that the Slants ran the local - they would still take less time to get down the line because they are not as sluggish as the R68; both in acceleration and braking. Ride an R40 on the "L" and see what I mean. With the exception of the Death Timer between Grand and Graham, the R40 move along the Canarsie line rather smartly. They pick up quite nicely, even where stations are close together (i.e. Union Sq/3 Avenue, Montrose/Grand)
wayne
Why are the two north entrances closed for one years what type of construction is going on?
They are remodeling the entrances, and the whole station for that matter. Why it is going to take so long is anyones guess. It probably didn't take that long to build them new in the 30s, ahh political bureaucracy, ain't it grand?
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/liwar08.htm
Would any of you Subtalkers be interested (prefereably 7-8 of you) in a "Warriors" Field Trip that would trace the exact route taken in the movie. We would start at Stillwell Ave and travel to the Bronx and then back via 96th St. and Union Square. On the return trip we would get off at a station in the Bronx and walk to the next station via the street. At 96th we would get out and walk to the nearest park and at USQ we would walk around and all use the USQ bathroom. Naturally we would NOT need to jump turnstyles, harrass women, walk through tunnels, get into fights or pick up loose women at USQ.
We could do it some time this summer. If we were really into it we could do it at night.
jump turnstyles, harrass women, walk through tunnels, get into fights or pick up loose women at USQ.
But thats half the fun
Jersey Mike,
You left out visiting the spot where the pinball machines are ! That's a must.
Bill "Newkirk"
Make it April 28 and you can count me in.
Would any of you Subtalkers be interested (prefereably 7-8 of you) in a "Warriors" Field Trip that would trace the exact route taken in the movie. We would start at Stillwell Ave and travel to the Bronx and then back via 96th St. and Union Square. On the return trip we would get off at a station in the Bronx and walk to the next station via the street. At 96th we would get out and walk to the nearest park and at USQ we would walk around and all use the USQ bathroom. Naturally we would NOT need to jump turnstyles, harrass women, walk through tunnels, get into fights or pick up loose women at USQ.
Wouldn't be the same. The "Warriors" reflected the atmosphere of its time, when the city and the subway were wild, scary places. Things today are just too calm, fortunately, to capture that atmosphere.
Why are the express stops on the IND/BMT network bunched that is there a two very close to each other than not another one for a long distance wouldn't it be better to have them evenly spaced to make transferring from the local to the express better?
It depends on the above ground needs. Penn Station and Times Square are express stops because that's where people want to go, even if they're only eight blocks from each other. The same holds true for the four-track sections of the IRT and BMT in Brooklyn.
Other than Penn Station and Times Square, the gaps are much wider between express stations in the midtown area on the IRT and BMT than they are on the IND Sixth Ave. line.
Why are the express stops on the IND/BMT network bunched? That is there a two very close to each other than not another one for a long distance wouldn't it be better to have them evenly spaced to make transferring from the local to the express better?
In rail transportation systems crossovers are needed to that trains can change from one track to another in the event of some sort of obstruction. While real railroads and many transit systems do a pretty good job with this, the NYCS appears to have been designed by the rats that live there.
Let us look at the two track example.
-------- or -----
../..\.. or ..X..
-------- or -----
This is a useful crossover.
On the subway we see stuff like this.
------ or -----
../... or ..\..
------ or ----- Which comes up lacking.
With even more tracks things get even more stupid.
Here is a good three track X over.
---------
..\..../.
---------
.../..\..
---------
Here is something RETARDED on the NYCS.
---------
.......X.
---------
.X.......
---------
Can someone tell me why on earth they didn't build an interlocking
that allowed all possible movements?
Here is a good 4 track X over.
--------------
.\........../.
--------------
.....\../.....
--------------
./.........\..
--------------
While the NYCS has stuff like
--------------
.X............
--------------
.......X......
--------------
.X............
--------------
or
--------------
...........X..
--------------
......../.....
--------------
..............
--------------
or
--------------
.......X......
--------------
.\..........\.
--------------
.......X......
--------------
Can someone explain the logic here?
No, you've got it all wrong. There are no retarders in
the NYCTS. You were here ONCE, right? Didn't you see the
signs in the cars: no spitting, littering, radio playing or humping.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Be sure you come to Chicago whenever the Sub Talk trip takes place and you will see our beautiful, four track, start from any track and end up on any track, unmanned crossovers (interlockings) all local controlled by the TO using signal mounted controls; especially on the four track norh side main. You'll drool!
Then too we have lovely hand throw single crossovers with timing mechanisms. Maybe I'll put together a video of nothing but special moves through crossovers.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/chicagopcclcars
In my fantasy system, most of our crossovers look like this:
____________________
_\__________/_________
______X______________
_/__________\_________
The rodeo was held at the CI Overhaul shop . Entrance was at Avenue X by the F line. Funny stuff was seeing an R68A with the M sign, and Seeing several A Division and B Division subway cars sitting right next to each other. like R32's and R33's. R62A's and R68A's. Funny seeing A and B Division is like Boys and Girls. in skool, the are not allowed to go into each others territory(locker rooms) when they get out of skool, they hang together. Meaning when the A Division and B Division cars are in service, they can't cross in each other's path, but when out of service, they chill one next to the other
For the past three weeks, when driving back from Long Island on the Belt Parkway, I see 3 R44 MUs at about Track 28 at Stillwell Yard.
The lead "A" car is signaled for "A" service.
Any ideas why they are there and not at 207 or Pitkin?
Because they probably needed main shop work at Coney Island Yard that 207 Street Yard couldn't handle.
For the past three weeks, when driving back from Long Island on the Belt Parkway, I see 3 R44 MUs at about Track 28 at Stillwell Yard.
The lead "A" car is signaled for "A" service.
Any ideas why they are there and not at 207 or Pitkin?
I could rember seening photos of the Prototype R44 in Coney Island yard.
F R44#100
These are NOT prototypes.
I MEAN the prototype R44 that was at Coney Island back in 1968. Saw photos of then.
IIRC Stillwell Yard does not have a 28 track.
It's my impression that Coney Island yard can take anything from any line, even the IRTs. Maybe those cars needed major maitenence.
:-) Andrew
Those could be the orphan bunch #5284 and #5285; they lost the other half of the bunch on July 3 1997 in a wreck at 135th Street although you make a good point about the R44s not being at 207th Street. See if you can get a unit number or even the first two digits of the unit number. One other thing it could be is the R46 bunch #5486-7-9-8 which has been OOS due to the Parts Vultures picking at their bones for some time now. But I can't figure how they could ever say "A".
ALSO could be some of the NON-GOH R44 (still wearing their three-digit numbers) lying around in permanent storage.
AFAIK The only IRT cars that Coney ever gets are those from the #7 Flushing line; all other major IRT work gets done at 207th Street. I would guess that if 207th could not do something they would send it to Coney, but my experiences seeing 207th Street is that they have a body shop and overhaul shop pretty much equal to that of Coney. Half the R44s were actually overhauled there.
wayne
5486-7-9-8 which has been OOS due to the Parts Vultures picking at their bones for some time now.
Those cars are inside Coney Island Overhaul Shop at this very momen, and pretty much back together.
And not a moment too soon.
That is very good news, indeed, and now I shall return them to revenue status in my numbers book (I will have to white out the orange frames drawn round the numbers). NYCT can ill afford to leave even one viable carset lying around.
wayne
Wayne they are not pre-GOH R44 MUs, these cars have the very bright tail lamps(red) of post GOH units.
I'm gonna try to see my friend at the pnuematic brake shop at Avenue X side and look around for unit numbers.
Don't think it's a R46...it's new to the track and it's signaled "A".
Unless some SMS that couldn't be done at 207????
They are GHO R44. The fouth one a "B" unit is sitting inside the main shop. I saw then about a five weeks ago when I took my final for T/O. I saw it whan they cut it from the other three. I don't now the numbers or what they are doing to the fouth cards in the shop. It is off it wheels and on lift so it can be worked under. I have not been to CIY since the so I can't even now how much longer it's going to be there. When I first saw it Me and my teacher thought it was a SIRR one but when we looked in side we saw it was not.
Robert
>>>.......I see 3 R44 MUs at about Track 28 at Stillwell Yard<<<
I believe you mean Coney Island Yard. Stillwell Yard is to the left of CI Yard (when you look at it on Belt Pkwy) and is used for layups only.
It couldn't be 28 track as that track is the lead in to the inspection barn. R44's would be on the main shop tracks (32 Tk. to 46 tk.).
And if you stop your car and look over the barrier, you'll see 3 abandoned pre-GOH R44's at the block around 68 track (if they haven't moved them yet) as well as a few other scrap cars.
Lovely Stillwell layup ... where you can hang your head on the tracks and not have to be worried about a headache caused by a West end or see beech ... smack in the middle of you ... heh. Is that old breaker house and tower light still out there? Had a picture taken of me 30 years ago, asleep at the switch on those rails ... be glad to hear SOMETHING ain't changed. Used to pick up my AM ride on them thar rails. :)
The three card are sitting on the apple track. They are next to the Triplex D type. The other one is in the main shop. The R44 and the other cars that were scraped have been out of the yard for about a year now. They when to SBK yard and then taking by car float to a scrap yard.
Robert
That must be the blind motor they are working on; wonder what the problem is that 207th Street couldn't solve it; they are a first-class operation up there; perhaps they didn't have parts/materials and Coney Island did.
Does ANYONE out there know how the Frankenslant (#4260 ex R40M#4461) is making out with his/her nose job? And what about #4259; have they fixed her nose and left cheek yet?
wayne
Wayne they had to go to CI to be worked, when I see this guy in the pneumatic barake shop I will look around see what i could find out, AND about the A-B-B R44 MU lash-up.
I don't know either why 207 sent it down. I will find out!!!
I don't remember if this has come up, but I just noticed that LIRR plans to install CBTC from Babylon to Speonk.
Arti
Can you define that?
Check out the MTA web site re current 5 Year Plan.
Arti
Let's all pray nothing happens to PD
:-)...
Arti
Heh, Maybe they're installing the signal system in anticipation that PD will EVENTUALLY fall over? :)
I'm guessing that the instalation out there is because it's a little used part of the system - great place to experiment and tweak without screwing up everything.
where is the MTA website please someone?
mta.nyc.ny.us
cARRIER bASED tRAIN cONTROL--a signalling system generally based on radio transmission and featuring 'moveable' virtual blocks. This is the basis of the Automatic Train Control in use on BART, DC Metro, et al and being installed as a test bed on the Canarsie line. In theory, the system by definition is fully bidirectional as no wayside signal heads need exist. Cab signals are displayed on board indicating block 'conditionor MAS.
I believe it's COMMUNICATION Based Train Control.
right you are! a brain flatulence
My point is, wouldn't DCS count as CBTC. It's entirely communications cased.
Moving block is a waste of money. You will always need TCB's for broken rail detection, track occupancy and loose car detection so you might as well do with coded track circut based ATC.
I disagree with your issue of broken rail detection. All of the broken rails I've ever seen and the one that caused the recent DE30 derailment in Kings park have been rails that cracked into the web of the rail only. Broken Rail Detection wouldn't and didn't work in this situation. As for track occupancy and loose cars, the technology of CBTC should be able to handle that. The consist is 'assembled' in the computer and the train is tracked as individual units. A loose car would be detected as such. Keep in mind that with the current system, a car or train's position can only be pinpointed to within the occupied block. With CBTC, trains position can be determined within 10 feet on straight track and within 25 feet on curves.
There are thousands of rail cars accross the country. You can't put an ID tracker on all of them. Also you're forgetting that broken rails, washouts, rockslides, freight cars running out of sidings and vehicles crashing on the ROW will all trigger a track occupancy light on a track w/ TCB. CBTC is powerless to detect these things. Also communications are a lot easier to interfere with that dedicated landlines.
[Also communications are a lot easier to interfere with that dedicated landlines. ]
One example for you to think of: airplanes, no wired communication, yet the safest track record. It's all the matter of design.
If you delegate the freight during non rush hours you couls operate a fixed block system superceding the CBTC. Basically run the freight at night.
Arti
>>With CBTC, trains
position can be determined within 10 feet on straight
track and within 25 feet on curves. <<
WHEN IT WORKS which is not always. The SF Bay area has TWO systems with CBTC of one flavor or another. Each has had serious "teething" problems, and recurrent glitches. Note, I am not trying to be a Luddite here, merely citing history.
Railroads in England have the most conventional (antiquated) signal system, they still seem to have teething problems :-)
Arti
Railroads in England have the most conventional (antiquated) signal system, they still seem to have teething problems :-)
No, the system works fine...it's just a bad system. Some of their lines are still the very definition of "Manual Block System". Many places don't even have a "block phone", but instead rely on bell codes sent via telegraph line. My friend said this is still done because the regional dialects vary so much that trying to communicate over a voice line would be impossible.
Did you see this!
:-)
:-)
:-)
Arti
Yeah, I thought you were sarcastically referring to its general crappyness as "teething troubles".
[Yeah, I thought you were sarcastically referring to its general crappyness as "teething troubles". ]
Even deeper than that .... :-)
Arti
well given all this talk about british signalling and PTC (positive train control) i guess i better chip in...
(1) british manual block territory *do* have block phones - i was wrong - except that they aren't usually used, mike cites correctly due to the accent problem - the block phones are only used for unusual or emergencies, for example the correct procedure for a "train running away" is to send a bell signal THEN phone the other block operator to say which train.
(2) in busy places CTC is used with continuous track circuiting, but the biggest problems facing british signalling are (a) the fact that it's still all route signalling and minimum effective headway is 1.5 mins and (b) the fact that everything damned expensive after the clapham 1988 mishap (see danger-ahead.railfan.net for more info).
(3) teething troubles, communication based train control, etc. my own personal opinion is that we ought to opt for the BEST possible technology, regardless of whether it works or not - pennsy was good at this, they built various electric locomotives that didn't work, but they eventually built the GG-1. i am not suggesting we ought to put untried technology EVERYWHERE, but i am saying that untried technology should be TRIED until it works, then it can go everywhere. it's not a valid reason to say that something is untried so that we'll never try it, and just stick with the old system for major schemes. the major schemes can wait until the technology is ready - well, most of the time the schemes can wait.
lexcie
edinburgh, scotland.
Lets hope it don't stand for Collision Based Train Carnage. I remember a news article of a deadly collision caused in part by failure of the ATO, causing the death of a motorman in the Washington system, after which we received the services of Lawrence Reuter.
engine brake, you got more details on that? i'd be interested to read.
lexcie
Others can probably provide more details, but the essence of the DC accident was this: while operating on an outdoor portion of the line, under extremely severe weather conditions, a motorman requested permission to take the train under direct control because he was concerned about sliding on the icy rail. The motorman made this request at least twice; it is not clear whether or not he was given permission after the second request (he was not after the first), but in any event he did not take control of the train and as a consequence slid past his designated stopping point at the end of the line - whether it was into a bumping block or another train I don't recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From what I understand, the head of rail operations at the time of the WMATA accident, Fady Bassily, was a real tyrant and refused to take the trains off of automatic control. He had zero friends at the agency and needless to say is no longer with the agency and the last I heard, was working in Greece.
ok, this is a stupid question, but i'm going to ask it...
with all due respect to the motorman, if he's convinced that his train isn't going to stop in time (e.g. he can see the stop board 200ft away and his train is still doing 40mph), why didn't he take refuge out of the cab?
i know that certain transit vehicles do not permit a quick-exit from cab to the actual car itself, but in the UK you can do this on most DMUs. so my question is, did he not "duck", or did he duck and was still killed, or couldn't he have "ducked"?
scotrail recently had an train slammed into a dump truck at 75mph. the train was doing 90mph when the driver saw the truck, he engaged emergency brakes and just had time to make a sharp exit. he was thrown back into the cab on impact, as a result sustained a broken arm and cuts - as an alternative to being squished at his seat.
He could have ducked but did not, for whatever reason. It's quite possible that, due to the weather conditions, he didn't realize how close he was to the end. He wasn't going very fast at the time of impact either, as I recall; if he had left the cab he probably wouldn't have had more than bruises.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NEver got ATO turned off and hit another train.
That's correct - the ATO was never turned off. The debate is over whether or not he received permission to turn it off. Critics have said no; WMATA's official position was that he was issued permission but did not act upon it, perhaps because he did not receive the transmission. He could have switched it off himself in the cab, but doing so without permission would have resulted in disciplinary action, hence the speculation that he did not receive the transmission. There was also speculation that he may have experienced some medical problems immediately prior to the accident which prevented him from leaving the cab - as in he may have incapacitated from a heart attack. This was never proven or disproven, IIRC; logically, given the speed of the impact, he should have been able to exit the cab in plenty of time to avoid serious injury, and it logically follows that since he didn't, he couldn't.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I don't remember if this has come up, but I just noticed that LIRR plans to install CBTC from Babylon to Speonk.]
Any plans to make it compatible with the subway/Metro North/NJT/Amtrak/Airtrain? (preliminary sigh . . .)
[Any plans to make it compatible with the subway/Metro North/NJT/Amtrak/Airtrain? ]
Doubt it, I noticed it reading the Capital Plan, they don't provide much details there.
Arti
The RFP was removed the LIRR site, leading industry sources to speculate that the LIRR has scuttled any CBTC plans it might have had.
Hmm, I wonder what happened to the $.6M allocated last year.
Arti
Is it my perception or are the A division trains really moving faster non-rush hours?
Arti
IMHO, I think it's preception. Much in the way a small automobile seems to go faster that a large automobile. But, I could be wrong.
Peae,
ANDEE
[Is it my perception or are the A division trains really moving faster non-rush hours?]
I think it's true. They've slowed the speeds on much of the B division something fierce.
Looking at the schedules A train from 168st Street to 42nd 17 min, 1 train from 181st Street to the same destination 24 min. One super local the other super express???
Go figure.
Arti
[Looking at the schedules A train from 168st Street to 42nd 17 min, 1 train from 181st Street to the same destination 24 min. One super local the other super express???]
That's pretty strange, particularly since the 1 is more crowded and has more curves on that stretch, and creeps over the 125th Street viaduct. (It still creeps there, doesn't it? I always assumed that was because it was built for four car wooden trains -- anyone know?)
[particularly since the 1 is more crowded and has more curves on that stretch, and creeps over the 125th Street viaduct. ]
They don't have rush hour schedules, I used 7.10 (11) Am train scedule. I think some tesing is in order, if you guys don't mind, let's agree on some equal segments and if time allows let's time them.
Arti
The best in Manhattan would be to compare the times for the A train between 125th St. and 14th St. with the times for the 4/5 between the same two stations.
Both lines have three stops between those points -- the A at 59th, 42nd and 34th and the 4/5 at 86th, 59th and 42nd. Because of the Grand Central S curve, the A should be about a minute or so faster than the 4/5 if they're both going at the same speed.
Good idea, thanks!
Arti
To be fair, don't use the rush hour schedules when comparing the two lines. The 4/5 have longer dwell times due to heavier patronage.
[To be fair, don't use the rush hour schedules when comparing the two lines. ]
I used 7 AM schedules, actually TA dousn't publish schedules during rush hours, they only provide the frequency of the service.
Arti
Ture, but the merge/split between the A and D south of 59th Street might balance things out a little bit, since the 4/5 has no track switching between Union Square and 125th Street.
There never were wooden trains on the Broadway line [except for the original "composites" which were still heavyweight cars, not like the wooden el cars]so the reason for slow speeds near 125 St wasn't structural. The last time I was in the city the trains highballed over that viaduct, I can remember the many years there was a 10 MPH restriction which I hated, enforced with timers. Did they put that slow order back on?
In the days of my youth in the 50's the old High-V's came out of the tunnel northbound like bullets; there were no restrictions until the high-rise apartments replaced the old 5-6 story ones in that area, and because [I was told 40 years ago]at that point the el sits on bedrock AND with the height of the buildings, the vibrations of the trains by the time they reached the upper floors, which buildings acted like a tuning fork, that pictures fell off the walls, plates slid off tables, etc. So that was the reason I was given for that hated 10 MPH restriction.
The viaduct was built for the 1904 opening of the subway not as part of the old Manhattan Railway (el) system.
[There never were wooden trains on the Broadway line [except for the original "composites" which were still heavyweight cars, not like the wooden el cars]so the reason for slow speeds near 125 St wasn't structural.]
I mentioned the weight issue because I remember reading in the 1904 subway book that the weight of the all steel cars was an issue on the viaduct, which had been built for lighter cars. But I read the book 20 years ago and I could well be remembering the details wrong -- I don't have a copy any more, so can't check.
[Did they put that slow order back on?]
I'm not sure -- it's been quite a while since I got up that way.
Bronx-bound trains leaving 116 will do about 36-38mph when leaving the portal and top out at 42mph before platforming. Leaving 125, you can get up to about 28mph before having to coast and slow for the timers entering the north portal.
Ferry-bound, leaving 137 they hit between 30-32mph entering 125. From 125 to 116, the fastest point is after the first curve inside the portal (about 34 mph) before slowing to 30-32mph entering the station.
Ferry-bound trains are going uphill, Bronx-bound going downhill.
Timewise, express trains are vastly overrated.
Another comparison between Queens Plaza and Continental Avenue:
E/F express-12 minutes
G/R local-20 minutes
You'd think that there would be a bigger time gap than that considering that the E/F skips 10 stops.
Wow. I really did think the time gap was bigger, something like 12 express and 30 local. Especially considering that between Northern and Roosevelt the expresses routinely hit 45mph (at least the R-32s going towards Manhattan). The locals seem so slow.
Dan
>>> Timewise, express trains are vastly overrated....
E/F express-12 minutes
G/R local-20 minutes <<<
Geez, what do you want? The express is 40% faster than the local. That looks like a pretty good time saving to me.
Tom
I always found the A divison cars to be faster than the B division cars. I think the R-32 & R-40 (R-46 honorable mention) were the fastest B division cars, but I don't think they were any match for the R-62's.
Wayne
Isn't it??
Or as I said, my preception...
Arti
If the MTA relents and runs the G to Continental, Queens Blvd. will have three locals sharing a track, the G, R & V. Have three locals lines ever run on one track before?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well three lines do run on 6th ave express (currently B,D,Q).There is ample room for a G plus R &V trains on the Queens Blvd local. There usually isn't bunching now on there, so with schedule tweaking it could work. If three trains can run 6th ave express than three can run on a local.
4th Avenue Local, Brighton Local and West End Local between DeKalb and the Nassau Loop turnoff (rush hours).
4th Avenue Local, Brighton Local and Culver Local between same points, non-rush hours.
If you mean on the Queens Blvd line, no. There would be 27 trains an hour, assuming there are 9 N's, 21 V's, and 6 G's. In reality, I doubt there are ever that many N's given the sloppy way the TA run the 4th Ave/Broadway line.
I should have said 12 V's.
I think you mean the R, not the N.
I could be wrong, but my theory on this is that one of these (I vote for the V) has to go to 179th St. Continental is enough of a circus just with the 2 lines turning there. Also you would need at least 3 platform conductors at Continental during the hours all 3 lines operate, because all you would need is one homeless to refuse to get off the train and it's instant bedlam.
Which goes back to a point I made earlier: if a train is just going to turn around, then don’t wait for the tardy passengers to get off. Just turn the train around and let them get off when they realize they’re going back the way they came!
Saves so much time! Jeez…
I had a WMATA red line operator who as the train left Grosvenor, announced "if there are any passengers on board the train, we will return to the Grosvenor Station momentarily."
Hey they're doing it right now with the N/M/R between DeKalb and the Broad Street cutoff during rush hours in the Montague Street tunnel.
Today.
I took the N SHUTTLE from Queensboro Plaza to Ditmars Blvd. Since the N was only running between there. Any only need 3 10 Car train sets to run between Dimars and Queensboro. I saw all of then. Witch was 2 R68's and 1 R68A to do that service. Before Astoria Blvd I saw a R68 layingup on the EXPRESS track.After Astoria Blvd Saw a R32 laying up on the EXPRESS Track.
N R68#2890
N R68A#5101
N R32 #3200
Where are they? It seems the 6 is the only line getting them. By the way, the 6 has the R-142a's, and the 2 had the R-142s, right? Do I have it backwards? Which line has the R-142A? The main difference I can tell is the sound. On the ones on the 2 line, the motor changes pitch three times fast when they start. The ones on the 6 keep the same pitch until the speed gets up to about 15mph.
R-142.......Kawasaki.........#6 Line
R-142A......Bombardier.......#2 Line
Bill "Newkirk"
You got it backwards.
It's:
R-142A.......Kawasaki.........#6 Line
R-142......Bombardier.......#2 Line
R-142A......Kawasaki.........#6 Line
R-142.......Bombardier.......#2 Line
IGNORE MY OTHER POST...........Don't post here when trying to keep your eyes open !!
Bill "Newkirk"
i don't know whats taking so long. they sould've fixed the breaking problem already. my best bet is they will be back up in may or june, looking at how long they are taking to bring them in.
ive seen them running on the #6 last week,so they sould be running now.
KHI was talking about the R-142s, which are being built by Bombardier and have been seen from time to time on the #2 line (also on the #4 line during last year's World Series, dressed for the part). The cars on the #6 are R-142As, being built by Kawasaki; these cars don't have the braking system problem that the R-142s apparently have. Unfortunately, I don't have any information as to when the cars will return to service.
David
So let me get this straight...the R142A cars are running w/o major problems on the #6, but there are no R142s running on the #2 due to brake problems...again? Sounds like we had another "super express" going beyond the MTA's speed limit!! -Nick
My new e-mail address is: mr.subway2@verizon.net
NY1
They're saying now that the cars don't meet the guidelines to run on either subway or LIRR. I say, since they have only purchased a few now for the initial segment, when it expands, they will have to order more cars. Just make sure those meet the guidelines.
Also, there was another report on TV, but it doesn't seem to be online: of the W not going to Manhattan on weekends, and the reason given was "because of repair work". That was all that was said, and it seems to match what someone reported here.
If the work is on the bridge or the tunnel, there's nothing much they can do, becaus the services will all be merging in Brooklyn. If the work is on the Broadway line, then it would be best if they did run the M out there, to provide both West End Sservice, and the one seat ride to the Grand St. area. Remember, when Stillwell is rebuilt, if the West End is the only line going out there, Coney Island will be virually isolated if that line is just a shuttle.
"They're saying now that the cars don't meet the guidelines to run on either subway or LIRR. I say, since they have only purchased a few now for the initial segment, when it expands, they will have to order more cars. Just make sure those meet the guidelines."
Even if the Airtrain cars did meet FRA guidlelines how can they run on the LIRR ? They are designed with NO operator in mind (NOPTO)!
Bill "Newkirk"
[Even if the Airtrain cars did meet FRA guidlelines how can they run on the LIRR ? They are designed with NO operator in mind (NOPTO)!]
Dual mode, of a sort.
Ironically, it is done on another airport line. That is how the monorail to Tokyo's Haneda airport works (or at least worked a couple of years ago). There is an operator for the first (older) half. They get out at a midpoint station, and it is automated the rest of the way.
We'll see what the RFP produces. Pataki is in a close race. He's gotta produce on this one.
The Montreal system runs OPTO, and the coputers open the doors before the train has come to a complete stop. Kinda freaky. The also have some cars with electronic signboards, which not only give the next station, but also have advertisments on them.
-Hank
Another thought has come to my mind. If they want to have a one seat ride from Manhattan they can do so by building an extension from the Howard Beach station on the IND Rockaway branch and run it right into Kennedy Airport. Then they can run special express trains directly from Manhattan to Kennedy Airport.
BMTJeff
"Another thought has come to my mind. If they want to have a one seat ride from Manhattan they can do so by building an extension from the Howard Beach station on the IND Rockaway branch and run it right into Kennedy Airport. Then they can run special express trains directly from Manhattan to Kennedy Airport." (BMTJeff)
The MTA does indeed have rights to a ROW into the airport from Howard Beach station. Two objections that they have stated in the past: 1) They don't like branching a line a lot, and the A train is plenty "branched" as it is. 2) Neither 60' nor 75' cars would do very well negotiating their way through terminals.
So they let AirTrain, whose inter-terminal loop would have been needed anyway, come out and meet the subway instead.
[The MTA does indeed have rights to a ROW into the airport from Howard Beach station. Two objections that they have stated in the past: 1) They don't like branching a line a lot, and the A train is plenty "branched" as it is. 2) Neither 60' nor 75' cars would do very well negotiating their way through terminals.]
Why not run the C to Ozone Park? That would free up the Ozone Park A's to go to the airport.
Better yet, if they restored LIRR service, they could send all the A's to the airport, for 4 minute headway service. Rockaway passengers who wanted to take the A would get a free cross-platform transfer from the LIRR; the LIRR would charge $3, which would however include a transfer to the subway in Manhattan. Much like the old extra fare days, but with faster service for everybody and more comfortable express service to Midtown for those who wanted to spend a bit extra.
"Why not run the C to Ozone Park? That would free up the Ozone Park A's to go to the airport."
You read my comment too narrowly and missed the point. The A and C run on the same ROW. The MTA does not like too many branches off a physical track. The JFK ROW would be one more switch and branch off a line - it doesn't matter what letter the train's displaying.
LIRR service can be discussed when East Side Access moves forward. The final EIS has been filed; the LIRR tunnel under 41rst Av in Queens has already been extended to Northern Blvd.
[The MTA does not like too many branches off a physical track.]
That makes a lot of sense in a high frequency corridor, because switches cause scheduling problems, but the Rockaway branch is hardly that. The problem that I was concerned with is three separate destinations -- the airport and two in the rockaways -- served by less than half of a line. That would mean rush hour headways on any one branch would be more than fifteen minutes! Bringing the C all the way through would reduce headways on any of the four branches to eight minutes, max.
BTW, I have a feeling that Airtrain will go to Penn long before Farley is open, simply because the governor wants it. AFAIK, it is doable by 2005, if another peak service gets pushed or curtailed, or the Airtrain follows a more creative route, e.g., via Amtrak/NJT or over the Manhattan Bridge.
If necessary, the Rockaways could be served by a revived H round-robin line, allowing all A trains (except rush hour specials) to go to the airport.
Maximum car length in the airport is irrelevant. If necessary, shorter cars can be ordered. There's nothing magic about 60 or 75 feet.
[Maximum car length in the airport is irrelevant. If necessary, shorter cars can be ordered. There's nothing magic about 60 or 75 feet.]
Or articulated cars. Also, somebody mentioned that Airtrain will take 60' cars.
"That makes a lot of sense in a high frequency corridor, because switches cause scheduling problems, but the Rockaway branch is hardly that. The problem that I was concerned with is three separate destinations -- the airport and two in the rockaways -- served by less than half of a line. That would mean rush hour headways on any one branch would be more than fifteen minutes! Bringing the C all the way through would reduce headways on any of the four branches to eight minutes, max. "
I agree with you, personally. I was relaying what the MTA thought about it, but I don't personally agree with it. An AirTrain loop might still be needed though - can you see terminals being served by 600' long trains. The MTA has said its subway cars can't negotiate the turns well enough.
[An AirTrain loop might still be needed though - can you see terminals being served by 600' long trains. The MTA has said its subway cars can't negotiate the turns well enough.]
Isn't there some kind of weight problem, too? And I assume you'd need the trains to be compatible with Airtrain CBTC. So I think you'd have to have special hybrid vehicles, but I'm in favor of that anyway, because a basic 60' vehicle that could run on the subway, LIRR, MN, airtrain, etc. with minor modifications would have many interesting uses.
Agreed.
Curves can't be THAT tight from what I've seen they aren't as bad as some in the B Division proper.
wayne
A Division cars probably could -- if they can negotiate the jughandle at 149th and Grand Concourse, they can deal with anything. But since the nearest A Division station to JFK is New Lots, that's not a viable option.
BTW -- Does anyone know the width of the planned Airtrain cars?
cars are 60 foot long and 10 foot wide.
just like IND length B division cars
If I built a subway link to the airport it would be served by a special express train that would make few stops. Also if they want to have fewer problems at the terminals they would need to use the 60' cars.
BMTJeff
[If I built a subway link to the airport it would be served by a special express train that would make few stops.]
Me too.
You could run a superexpress JFK-LGA Airtrain along the N line with one stop each at Dekalb, Lower Manhattan, Penn/34th, 60th, and Queens Plaza.
Also, the A has too many stops in Brooklyn and that slows down service for everybody who uses the line. You could run the Airtrain along it if you closed down some of those Express stops and made it an 80 mph line (something they should do everywhere on the subway, anyway).
You're right about the express to LaGuardia airport. All they need to do is the build an extension onto the Astoria line. Unfortunately the NIMBYs are likely to prevail.
BMTJeff
[Unfortunately the NIMBYs are likely to prevail.]
Do you think so? I sort of had the impression it would ultimately go through.
The biggest objector here is Peter Vallone. Without his sign-off the project won't happen.
[The biggest objector here is Peter Vallone. Without his sign-off the project won't happen.]
Doe she really have that much power?
Yes. The City Council would have to OK this and he, being the speaker, can bottle it up.
[Yes. The City Council would have to OK this and he, being the speaker, can bottle it up.]
When does his term limit kick into effect?
When does his term limit kick into effect?
This year! Everybody elected in 1993 or before is OUT.
Heh
So maybe there's hope after all!
The London Underground goes to Heathrow. I know that the Piccadilly line trains are smaller than B-Division ones, but the line is entirely underground in the airport (there’s a quick up and down on the way there).
It would cost substantially more, true, but given the 30-50-70-year payback, and the congestion relief on the roads, it would be worthwhile.
[2) Neither 60' nor 75' cars would do very well negotiating their way through terminals.]
BTW, I just read on nyc.transit that the Airtrain can accomodate 60' cars.
>BTW, I just read on nyc.transit that the Airtrain can accomodate 60' cars.
Cars are already arriving. I read or heard in the news that they are 60ft!
The 60' length is verified by www.jfkairtrain.com.
By the way, a friend who has spent a lot of time in Vancouver, Canada, home of the "Skytrain," which has linear induction motors as well, says that their trains have a lot of problems when there is significant snowfall. Oops.
[By the way, a friend who has spent a lot of time in Vancouver, Canada, home of the "Skytrain," which has linear induction motors as well, says that their trains have a lot of problems when there is significant snowfall. Oops.]
I've been hearing people say that.
OK, so if that's the case the objection was to the 75' car. But, I would be interested to know if there are differences in coupling techniques between, say an R-32 car and AirTrain vehicles (meaning, what is the sharpest curve an R-32 or R-143 train can take, vs. the sharpest curve AirTrain can take)??
There are some additional problems in trying to build dual mode cars to replace those being purchased by the PA. The Airtrain was designed with tight curves which present Div B cars cannot handle. Also, the Airtrain cars use linear motors. The structures probably will not handle the double weight of conventional cars when combined with the extra dead weight required for the linear motors.
The time to have pressured the PA was they required City approval to extend the line outside the airport property. Observers who pointed out these contradictions at that time were accused of being NIMBY's and worse.
"They're saying now that the cars don't meet the guidelines to run on either subway or LIRR. I say, since they have only purchased a few now for the initial segment, when it expands, they will have to order more cars. Just make sure those meet the guidelines. "
They were never intended to. There is no capacity to take AirTrain onto LIRR ROW. This is a case of people (sometimes for nefarious reasons) inventing "goals" for the Port Authority to meet and then throwing rocks when they don't.
AirTrain is an LRV. Maybe in future there will be hybrid cars, after East Side Access is complete - but that's well down the road, a long way. For service in 2002, it isn't relevant.
[They were never intended to. There is no capacity to take AirTrain onto LIRR ROW. This is a case of people (sometimes for nefarious reasons) inventing "goals" for the Port Authority to meet and then throwing rocks when they don't.]
With Airtrain check-in a much-touted feature of the Farley project, I don't see how the PA can have been unaware of the plans to bring Airtrain into Manhattan. In fact, the goal of a one-seat ride into Manhattan was long pushed by the Port Authority, and a one seat ride and compatibility with the LIRR and subway have been a central concern of the City, State, and lobbying organizations like the RPA all along. In fact, as part of the compromise that allowed Airtrain to be built, the PA was successfully pushed to at least size the tracks so full width cars could fit on them -- and since then it seems that they've done everything in their power to find ways to take back that back.
As to LIRR capacity, there are four main line tracks and two on the Montauk line, all being served by two tunnels, and while the LIRR tunnels and their side of Penn Station are near capacity, the Amtrak/NJT side isn't.
"With Airtrain check-in a much-touted feature of the Farley project, I don't see how the PA can have been unaware of the plans to bring Airtrain into Manhattan. In fact, the goal of a one-seat ride into Manhattan was long pushed by the Port Authority, and a one seat ride and compatibility with the LIRR and subway have been a central concern of the City, State, and lobbying organizations like the RPA all along."
You're preaching to the anointed. That came with a $5.6 billion price tag. The amended plan represents what can be accomplished with $1.5 billion, and forgoes some of what the original plan was supposed to accomplish (in future, there will be remedies). Again, stop throwing rocks.
"In fact, as part of the compromise that allowed Airtrain to be built, the PA was successfully pushed to at least size the tracks so full width cars could fit on them -- and since then it seems that they've done everything in their power to find ways to take back that back."
That's Subtalk fantasy. When I read stuff like that, it usually means it's time for the writer to widen his field of vision.
[You're preaching to the anointed. That came with a $5.6 billion price tag. The amended plan represents what can be accomplished with $1.5 billion, and forgoes some of what the original plan was supposed to accomplish (in future, there will be remedies). Again, stop throwing rocks.]
That $5.6 billion proposal was just a fantasy. It never made any sense to bring a new line into Manhattan at vast cost when there are existing lines that can do the job with a bit of work for no more. It would have cost no more to connect Airtrain to the LIRR tracks at Jamaica and buy LIRR-compatible vehicles with traction motors than it cost to come up with the current arrangement, and while you'd need a few more of the vehicles and the labor to run them that could have been provided by the MTA.
I'm not sure that criticism is the same thing as throwing rocks. I haven't seen any valid justification for the Port Authority's actions, either on the basis of cost or service. I'd gladly consider one if it was forthcoming.
["In fact, as part of the compromise that allowed Airtrain to be built, the PA was successfully pushed to at least size the tracks so full width cars could fit on them -- and since then it seems that they've done everything in their power to find ways to take back that back."
That's Subtalk fantasy. When I read stuff like that, it usually means it's time for the writer to widen his field of vision.]
This isn't from Subtalk at all; the compromise was widely reported in the press at the time. The City and State fought for LIRR/subway compatibility, and settled for the best deal they could get, a compromise that included full sized tunnels that would eventually accept subway/LIRR compatible vehicles. If the PA had cared about that commitment, they would have faced the Jamaica terminal the other way and used compatible technology. I don't pretend to know *why* they didn't do that; suggestions I've heard include political pressure from New Jersey members of the MTA board who didn't want competition for EWR, Airline fears that subways access would fill the airport with beggars and other "undesireables," and a desire for bureaucratic control. As I've said, I'd be delighted to hear alternative explanations.
"That $5.6 billion proposal was just a fantasy. It never made any sense to bring a new line into Manhattan at vast cost when there are existing lines that can do the job with a bit of work for no more. It would have cost no more to connect Airtrain to the LIRR tracks at Jamaica and buy LIRR-compatible vehicles with traction motors than it cost to come up with the current arrangement, and while you'd need a few more of the vehicles and the labor to run them that could have been provided by the MTA."
Wrong. It will cost $4.3 billion to bring AirTrain to Manhattan, assuming that the service begins after East Side Access was completed. That's OK, because that money will also improve LIRR service to Manhattan. Your narrative above is the fantasy, because there isn't room for an additional service of any kind to Manhattan right now through existing tunnels.
[Wrong. It will cost $4.3 billion to bring AirTrain to Manhattan]
Maybe they should have spent that 4.3B to bring Airtran to GCT instead of LIRR :-)
Arti
[Wrong. It will cost $4.3 billion to bring AirTrain to Manhattan, assuming that the service begins after East Side Access was completed. That's OK, because that money will also improve LIRR service to Manhattan. Your narrative above is the fantasy, because there isn't room for an additional service of any kind to Manhattan right now through existing tunnels.]
Once again -- there are four LIRR track and four East Side tunnels, of which the LIRR uses only two. One of the four is almost empty, and the other is partly used by New Jersey transit to take trains through to the yard, though not at its theoretical or practical capability -- trains which could go through to JFK. *None* of the tunnels is used to its theoretical capacity. The LIRR achieves a fair throughput, but could do better if they had more slots at Penn, or the trains were designed for faster loading, or the routes were laid out for less cross switching. NJT's throughput is limited by Amtrak and limiations on the staircases, but these things could be fixed by a bureacrat's stamp in the first case and building new staircases in the second (actually in progress). It would not cost $4.3 billion to bring Airtrain into Penn. Nor would it cost $4.3 billion to bring Airtrain into the City through any of a plethora of alternative routes, which include the partially utilized 63rd Street subway tunnel, the half-utilized Rutgers subway tunnel, and an unused full track line on the Manhattan Bridge. And if you didn't want to use the subway tunnels, it would cost a few thousand dollars to print up new schedules to reflect minor changes in the LIRR schedule, which would have to shifted by perhaps two minutes to fit Airtrain into current schedules, at the cost of a slight peak period delay for some LIRR passengers.
But that's really neither here nor there. You're ascribing the full cost of the LIRR route to Airtrain, which is precisely the wrong thing to do, since as you say, the main purpose of those tunnels is LIRR east side access. The difference between the PA's $5.6 billion fantasy plan and what they should have done is that in the PA's scenario, that $5.6 billion went to a dedicated airport ROW, while in other case, Airtrain will share facilities, and costs, with other services. That makes one option out of the question, the other one eminently economical.
The caption says the T never ran there but why is it signed as a T?
It's a fan trip photo. The sign is just incorrect. The "T" never ran to Queensbridge.
Yeah. The Queensbridge station didn't even exist when there was a "t" train.
:-) Andrew
Looks like a photo from the "Farewell to the R-30s" fantrip, which means the train could be signed to any desitation the T/O wanted.
The fact that the R-30s should be running through the 63rd St. connection right now so there wouldn't be a car shortage on the B Division is another story.
I hope you like the (T) sign which was in a sign box I brought on that fantrip. The destination sign and box was brought by another railfan who even brought a set of three side signs too.
When the R-30's posed at West 8th St on the (D), it said (NX) for the route !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's an R-32 T sign. The original R-27/30 curtains had "T/B'wy-West End".
i fast can a septa lrv can go
i fast can a septa light rail vehical can go.
fast can a septa light rail vehecal can go.
Can anyone explain why the 2nd avenue subway will use A Division size and equipment type and not B division. Im not sure but I heard A division Size. Can anyone help? Thnx a lot, by the way invitiations still open for tuesday railfanning trip, email me if interested.
2nd Ave would be B div positively. At Hylan's times there was a 3rd Ave proposal to use IRT dim cars. The only "connection: to A div is that it will have a transfer steation to IRT 125th St station.
Arti
Thnx
Everything I've heard is that it will be B division. it will be linked to the Broadway BMT and the 6th Ave and Queens Blvd. INDs via 63rd St.
:-) Andrew
Thank you, thats what I gathered
I do not live near New York so I am not up on the latest developments. I thought that since the November Bond issue went down to defeat that there was no money for a 2nd avenue subway. What is the latest?
I'm not saying that there isn't a need for a Second Avenue Subway, the fact is I just don't know since I live three thousand miles away. However, I've been hearing numerous posts on this subject almost daily and I do know that nothing has been done on the construction end of it. So my question is, why all the interest in something that seems to be an impossible dream. And no one has told me so far as I know what the terminals would be if there was such a subway. How many boroughs would be involved? I mean if we are going to talk about a subway that probably never be built at least we could use our imaginations as to where we think such terminals would be.
Read the MTA's plan, Fred... plus many, many other threads on the subject and also the plans dating back to the late '20s posted on this site. They're all variations on a theme, but basically it's a Manhattan-only or Manhattan-Bronx line. In the current MTA proposal the northern terminal is at 125th Street and the southern one (of the "stubway") is a connection to one of the other lines - around 57th Street, IIRC without looking it up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Read the MTA's plan, Fred... plus many, many other threads on the subject and also the plans dating back to the late '20s posted on this site. They're all variations on a theme, but basically it's a Manhattan-only or Manhattan-Bronx line. In the current MTA proposal the northern terminal is at 125th Street and the southern one (of the "stubway") is a connection to one of the other lines - around 57th Street, IIRC without looking it up."
You got it wrong. The current plan connects the Second Av subway to the 63rd St line while construction continues south to the financial district. 57th St is the southern boundary of Phase I engineering.
Thanks, Ron - I had the feeling I wasn't exactly correct on that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I do not live near New York so I am not up on the latest developments. I thought that since the November Bond issue went down to defeat that there was no money for a 2nd avenue subway. What is the latest?]
Gov. Pataki said he would build it, bond issue or no bond issue. My guess is that it will eventually get built, because public pressure has built to the point that there will be an explosion if people realize nothing much is getting done.
Correct. The first operating component will be exactly that.
I have a questoin for you. Are you saying that the 2 avenue route will begin below 57 st going north to a junction with the 63 st line,with trains running to the Queens line[like the 1972 plan]as well as running north to 125?
Yes, that is correct.
The 63rd St line, as built, has two bellmouths at 2nd Av. One bellmouth is designed to take trains running south from 125 St and head them west along 63rd St. (and vice-versa east-northbound)
The second bellmouth allows trains coming from Queens Blvd. through the 63rd St Connector to turn south on 2nd Av (and northbound trains to turn east on 63rd St).
Phase I of prelim engineering covers mainline tracks along 2nd Av to 57th St., with additional connections (ramps) into the bellmouths. Phase II should get underway shortly after.
Please attend the MTA meeting on the full-length design, happening next Thursday, April 19, at MTA headquarters, 347 Madison Avenue, between 44th and 45th Streets, from 6-8PM. The hotline number is 718-694-5164. Or you can send comments to MESA Study, MTA New York City Transit, 130 Livingston St, Room 3012D, Brooklyn NY 11201.
Thanks. so theres a good chance 0f trains running from 57 st 2ave to JAMAICA when this line opens ?
A very good chance.
But I don't think that the stub to 57th Street will have a station. The stub would only be there to facilitate southward extension. It would be possible to have a train from 34th Street/2nd Avenue to Jamaica.
I believe you are correct, Pork.
If you can go to the meeting on the 19th, 6PM at MTA HQ, that would be great. Maybe they'll have a list of proposed stations south of 63rd St.
And how I insisted that newer cars were better, despite there easy level of destruction?
Returned from my Montreal trip today (pictures to come) to the following on my answering machine:
"Mr Eisenstein, this is (insurance company representative). I'm afraid your car is a total loss, the damage is...severe. Our loss department will be in touch this week. Thank you, and have a nice day."
Why is it a loss? If you've seen the pictures, you see the right fender. I was hit by a van, its bumper hit the top of my fender, behind which is the top of the shock tower, which is part of a sub-frame called the 'Suspension Cradle'. This piece is shaped like a U with long arms at the top, and holds up the engine and the front of the car. It also needs, besides the obvious body stuff, new right-side suspension, two wheels, hubs, knuckles, and driveshafts, and time enough to tear down the tranny to inspect. All from a relatively minor wreck. My car was 8 months old.
-Hank
...Sorry Hank. But don't give up on new cars! Who wants to ride around in dinosaurs gaz guzzlers?! Well, I do, but it's not practical. Anyway, technology has it's price just as everything else. Besides, this will help you get in touch with your tranist roots. When was the last time you rode on an R142? Better yet, when was the last time you were blessed enough to ride an RTS? See things just may work out after all.
Sorry, the Staten Island-Queens commute doesn't lend itself to transit usage.
Last time I was on any bus was last July, when I left my old job. I've NEVER ridden the R142, although my future mom-in-law calls every time she sees one.
-Hank
We went round and round about this on this site some time ago. Guess the general thought is true the modern cars will be demolished as yours but the crash zones take up most of the impact while there is less chance of severe injury or death to occupants. [assuming you're belted in, so they say] The highway fatality RATE last time I read one was less than half of that of the late 50's.
After reading your post I guess I'm glad I still like big vans but guess the risks are as great only in different ways. They do have a big appetite. From what I hear all light trucks are far more prone to rollovers.
Any vehicle with a higher center of gravity is at risk for that. Top heavy vehicles with suspensions that get beat up a lot (like ambulances) are at risk for it.
Look at it this way, Hank - you're intact and in one piece. With suspension damage of that kind and unibody construction there's probably other, hidden damage that would make the car a nightmare if it were repaired - little things like interior leaks, big things like not tracking in a straight line, etc. A co-worker is awaiting what I suspect will be the same call from the insurance adjuster, and his car (a "big" Saturn) is less than four months old. He was hit by an Acura that ran a red light; that one had to be cut apart to get the (drunk) driver out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with the mouse hank, all subtalkers and other people (like your future wife) are thankful that you came out of this crash alive and without injury. As for your car, I gather that insurance loss dpt. will help you out there as far as compensation goes. But do remember to check your local laws...in CT, insurance companies cannot raise your insurance for an accident that is not your fault (even though many companies get away with it). But if you know the law, then they won't. -Nick
Future wife was in the passenger seat, and screamed.
The guy had a faulty signal, and he demonstrated it to us after the accident. Fat lot of good it did me. On the other hand, the body shop that has my car (I'm taking the plates off tomorrow) is right under the Bay Ridge line.
-Hank
I'm sorry but I have to go to the English language school. I start lesson at 17:30 and is 17:00 now. I'm hurrying. I return tomorrow. See you later.
There were a couple of the trainsets in the yard off the Nassau
Expressway yesterday. Seems a little early to me!
With the Van Wyck guideway construction approaching Linden Blvd., and a lot of the on-airport loop done, initial testing may be nearer than you think...
Passed by the Howard Beach/JFK station on the A today and it looks like the track and 3rd rail is in place now they just have to finish the station.
The photos are up on my website including the SBK locos (N1 and N2), the Vacuum train, the R142's on the overhaul shop (heypaul will love those...) and much much more....
The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website
Devoted To The NYC Subway
-Harry
Hi,
I,m wondering if anyone can help me out with a bit of information on Bob Kiley(former boss of the N.Y. Subway)who is now the Transport Commisioner for London Transport. I write for a magazine in Britain called Labour Left Briefing where we have a lot of coverage on the tade union movement and the disputes on the London Underground. Trying to track down information on Mr Kiley is next to impossible! Can anyone help! Specifically looking for info on what Kiley did in relation to the labor unions on the railways. How did he treat them? How did he view them? What were industrial relations like? If anybody can help with information or put me in touch with anybody(especially from the unions who can) eternal thanks!
Stuart Watkin
stuart72@iemail.com
I can't answer your questions but...
This is probably the 5th or 6th query about Bob Kiley we've seen on SubTalk. Does that mean, that so far, no one's learned anything about him and published it in the British press? I'd think the newspapers would have already dragged up everything they could about anyone remotely connected with running the Underground.
-Dave
Dave,
I was looking at the pictures from your most recent London trip, THEY ARE GREAT, thanks. One question, I notice that the gap is quite big at some stations, do they have any gap fillers over there?
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope! But they do have a mindless drone recording saying "mind the gap" over and over at stations where it's needed...
-Dave
Even when trains aren't in the station?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, just when the trains are in the station; I guess there is a track sensor to trigger the announcement.
Correct, but I do not know where the sensors are situated. BTW interesting ride Saturday evening. Picadilly line closed due to persons on line at Ravencourt Park. Ran on tube stock on Disrict Line from Acton Town to Hammersmith - a first for me. Bit like New York switching Express to Local.
Simon
Swindon UK
I'd liken it to running IRT rolling stock on IND/BMT trackage. Talk about "And now for something completely different".:-)
I didn't realize there was a physical connection between the Piccadilly and District lines.
Where are these pics located?
Did you look in the London section? Or the List of new images by date?
There were no new photos but there were new croydon tramlink photos.
Actually there's a lot of new London photos. Around 50. Plus the ones from Croydon and Birmingham.
Dave-
Do you still want those Glasgow Underground pics? E-mail me if you still do.
What I liked about the pictures is seeing a place that walks the walk not talk the talk! I would LOVE to live SOMEWHERE
were " real mass rapid transit" is a reality & I do not have to drive my G. D. "car" everywhere I have to go !! Geeeezzz!!!
( nice pictures Mr. Primann ) !!
Next time I go, I’ll have to go to Piccadilly or somewhere and make a recording of the Please Mind The Gap. Did you also notice in stations where there is a large gap, there are illuminated yellow stripes on the concrete below to draw your attention to the large step.
Interestingly, this can be 8-10" in the middle of a car: longer than the gap would be on an A-Division train on the B-Division…
I was at Court St today and also noticed another difference between the NYC subway and the LN Underground: the subway has the tunnel lights turned on. The Underground has lights, but they’re usually turned off. The only time I have seen them on is around last train time, when they are getting ready to do overnight maintenance.
What sort of standards does the TA apply in deciding whether an advertising campaign is appropriate for subway use? Advertisements do seem to have gotten better lately. There appear to be fewer ads for dubious-sounding medical practitioners, and there aren't as many have-you-been-injured lawyer ads. And that off-color campaign for Kenneth Cole shoes was pulled after a short period, presumably in response to complaints.
But today I saw an ad on the 1/9 that didn't seem quite right. It was for an outfit called "Smoke Signal Communications," featuring a large picture of Erik Estrada (guess his post-CHIPS career's been underwhelming). This outfit says it provides telephone service with no identification required. Now, I don't have any more details on how it operates, and it might be perfectly on the up-and-up, but it seems to me that providing telephone service on what sounds like an anonymous basis is a questionable idea. It would be prefectly suited for, say, obscene calls or telemarketing scams. I hope that the TA investigated this outfit before taking its money.
It's legit. Those commercials have been running in the Los Angeles area and other parts of the southwest in English and en Espanol for a number of years, catering primarily to the Hispanic market.
Basically, it's the phone service equivalent of places like CitiFinancial, which offer small loans (at exremely high interest rates) to people whose credit is too lousy to go through a bank. Smoke Signal offers phone service to people whose credit ratings make the phone company's alarm bells go off, with the proper up-front payment, of course.
Nowadays, if you're credit rating is in the dumpster, you can even get cellular phone service on a by-the-minute basis for an up-front monthly payment, instead of the standard practice of monthly billings based on amount of usage. You buy the minutes like you would buy the minutes on a phone card -- when it's gone, your cell service is gone until you buy some more minutes.
This is a very complicated issue and not one that will be resolved here. This issue has been raised in the courts but we've yet to see the last of it. Currently, the TA & MTA are caught between two sets of standards. Immediately coming to mind is the issue of the Calvin Klein ads that featured 'pre-teen looking' models in underware
On one hand, we have the decency issue and first ammendment suits. The TA went to court in an attempt to exercise its 'right' not to carry ads portraying what some thought was pedophelia.
On the other hand we have the possibility that some employees may be personally offended by these ads. Forcing them to view the ads could be construed as creating a hostile work environment - ergo, sexual harassment.
In the Calvin Klein case, the courts ruled that the TA must carry the ads because of 'free speech' issues. Free speech issues apparently get more weight in the courts because of their improtance in the constitution. However, while that picture, on the side of a bus was considered free speech, on a locker or on a work-area wall, it was considered obscene and possible sexual harassment.
Courts generally have held that free-speech requirements don't apply as much to "commercial speech" such as advertising. The concept, presumably, is that a company advertising a product or service is motivated by financial considerations, rather than trying to express its opinion. It is the expression of opinion that gets the most protection.
In any event, it would seem to me that subway advertisements can be held to fairly stringent standards, at least as far as decency is concerned, because of the subway's confined nature and the resulting intrusiveness of the advertisements. Persons offended by a particular ad on the subway can't easily avoid it.
An ad that I found amusing that others may have found offensive appeared in a NY subway some years ago. It was for a physician specializing in amelioration of discomfort caused by hemorrhoids; his phone number was "DR TUSCH".
By any chance does anyone know the telephone number for the N.Y. Division, Electric Railroaders? This is in reference to a possible tour of the 207St. shop on April 21. Thanks for any help.
I know the number: (212) 986-4482.
I also know and must regrettably report that the tour has been postponed. We asked NYCT for permission to run a tour and haven't heard back to date. We'll keep asking.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Dave thanks very much for the number and also unfortunatly the info for the tour.
Whats the differences between these Redbirds subway cars?
P.S. After GOH why can't a R26 & 33ML run on the same train together?
Well, the WF cars have bigger, rounded picture windows (very pretty) and the ML cars have smaller, divided square windows with heavy posts between them. The R-33 Singles have no air conditioners, four less grab posts per car and their fans have different coverings. The WF cars also have emergency lights in the center of their fans (replaced with speakers on mainliners) and the lights on WF cars go out when the train hits a third rail gap due to an idiosyncracy in their wiring, something that's been engineered out on everything else in the system.
I can't tell the different types of mainliners apart, though.
Dan
Is it true that the R33Ss have four less grab poles because the other Redbirds use those poles as A/C ducts?
I always thought those were there to support the A/C and keep it from falling on the heads of unwitting passengers.
Dan
No, those transport the freon(?) from the part of the A/C under the car to the part on the inside roof. That's why they're often cold when you hold them.
R-26/28/29 have all tan ceilings on the inside, and PA speakers in the middle of the ceiling blowers. R-33 ML have white ceilings and either nothing or an inactive emergency light in the middle of the ceiling blowers. The R-36s (all) and R-33 (singles) still have their center light track (except 9336) and have tan and white ceilings. Blinking lights, too.
also 9574 has the "new lights"
AFAIK R-26s and mainline R-33s certainly can run in the same consist. The Redbirds all have the same braking and propulsion systems.
Informative article in Monday's Inkie on the Camden-Trenton light rail line, with a graphic describing the cars and a graphic describing the route and station locations.
Here's my favorite part:
Light-rail opponents who expressed concerns about property values, safety and noise in their neighborhoods have faded from the scene but have not changed their minds.
What are they concerned about? Their property values getting too high? Not wanting to start another anti-NIMBY thread, but people should know that rail transit will always raise property values.
Some of this has always been an overestimation of impacts.
Some of it is racial. I've met people in Southern NJ who are openly hostile to blacks. The attitude really is "I want you to show up to clean my toilets and do my laundry; I want you to use the back door to get in so my neighbors don't see you riding the bus down my street, and when you're down, you can get out of town anyway you want, but get out, because you're not welcome here (and if my teenage son or his friends finds you anywhere around here after hours, he'll use you for boxing practice - that's OK with me, because you're not really human)." It's horrible. A construction engineer once told me he was nearly assaulted while overseeing crews working on the Atlantic City rail line. Maybe this is like the south in the 1950's: federal marshals need to visit certain places in South Jersey and kick some ass (and haul a few to the federal penitentiary).
I don't doubt the existance of racism in South Jersey, but I know for a fact that much of northwestern New Jersey (western Passaic, western Bergen, Morris, Sussex, and Warren Counties) is one of the most racist areas in the region. In the 1940's, an American Nazi group known as the Bund, often held joint rallies with local Ku Klux Klan groups at Camp Nordland in Andover Township.
There is a once-private road off of Rt. 23 in Butler called Kikeout Road. Yes, that's exactly what it means - Kike (racist term for Jew) Out, meaning No Jews. The road was once on private property and the owner gave it that name (although I believe the name of the road has since been changed to Kakeout, to somewhat dissolve its racist roots).
There is also a nearby lake called Kampfe Lake (Mein Kampf, anyone???)
That whole area was also, many moons ago, a "Restricted Area", meaning only Gentiles were permitted to live there.
And although it is, of course, no longer "restricted", the area still harbors a racist attitude, and some residents belong to various white power groups.
Even my town of Bloomfield was once KKK mecca and "The Green", a small park across from the high school, was the grounds for many a cross-lighting rally.
This is just a small synopsis of the often written-off part of New Jersey history.
Thanks for enlightening us. Sounds real ugly.
I have a MAJOUR question about this rail project, namely what is going to happen at CP-HATCH.
For those of you who do not know CP-HATCH is where all freight traffic enters South Jersey and it is not something you can just shut down between 6AM and 10PM. The line between Delair and Trenton is just some old unsignaled secondary track that was lucky to see 1 local freight per day. The line running from the Delair Bridge to Pavonia Yard is the CRSAA Delair Branch with welded rail and signals. This is a majour line seeing 4-6 inter-terminal freights a day, 2 sets of unit coal trains and another 2 sets of unit stone trains in addition to god knows what destined for the South Jersey chemical coast.
The Inky graphic showed the line running right down the RoW that is now the Pavonia running track so my question is, how are they going to manage this and furthermore, how are they going to bypass Pavonia Yard and WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO MY BELOVED CP-HATCH!
South Jersey railfans stand to loose 3 PRR dwarf signals, 1 PRR high signal, 3 electro-penumatic switches, a PRR 2 track signal bridge, PRR era catenary poles and ALL DAYLIGHT MOVEMENTS OF SYMBOL FREIGHT TRAINS. The only solution I can see is if the SJLR uses one of the tracks and CRSAA uses the other track into Pavonia yard from the Delair Branch, but even that does not bode well for CP-HATCH. Here is a picture of CP-HATCH:
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/CP-HATCH_3.jpg
South Jersey railfans stand to loose 3 PRR dwarf signals, 1 PRR high signal, 3 electro-penumatic switches, a PRR 2 track signal bridge, PRR era catenary poles
Not 3 dwarf signals??!!!! The horror!! And they're PRR Dwarf signals to boot! What am I ever going to do??!! Oh yeah, continue with a normal life. I think my toilet needs cleaning... :)
Dwarf signals?
That’s signals of diminished stature or height-challenged signals to you!
LOL…
On CBS 2 at 5:40 PM. There was giveing about the PCC's in the City Subway.The News reporter took a ride on one.And this guy say this
"The City subway is the most kept screct in Newark".HA!!. Got Good news for PCC Lovers and Fans. NJ Transit is not going to Scrap the PCC's after all. NJ Transit is now finding a place for the PCC's to run.
The website to see that story is at this web site. But you have to look yourself since I have trouble looking for it myself. Here's the web adress.
www.cbs2ny.com
Please yet me know by sending the link to me at MTAboy99@aol.com. OK.
The last train line I rode when I went railfanning with my new found buddies a week ago Sunday was the #7 train. I was reminded of the fact that I was one week and a day short of riding it when it would have meant even more-----the Mets home opener today. Did any of your guys out there happen to take in the game? We kicked the Braves' asses good and proper and I would have loved to have been there. TBS usually televises most Braves games but they didn't today, which kind of chapped me. I wore my lucky Mets hat that Thurston gave me hoping it would bring the Mets some luck, and wore it when I played golf this afternoon. I had a real good round until the last hole (9th) when it started pouring and screwed up by swing. But the Mets won. That's what counts.
Fred,
Did our favorite #7 rider come out of the pen to pitch today? NYPD forced out an additional 300 cops for him! -Nick
Rockhead never got into the game, and good for him because I'm sure the New Yorkers would have given that bigot the what for that he deservess in perpetuity. Still, the Mets whomped the Braves, and I still wish I could have been there. Maybe this summer.
.
The Mets sure knocked him off his Rocker in Atlanta, didn't they?
The meteorologist on WCBS Newsradio-880 just indicated that the current line of strong thunderstorms would be impacting the north shore of Suffolk County, and in particular, "Huntington, Greenlawn, Northport, Kings Park, Smithtown, St. James, Stony Brook, and Port Jefferson." Sound suspiciously like an LIRR branch to me...
(too bad Setauket has closed :-)
Yeah, it was foggy from Bridgeport up through Strafford, Milford and New haven today too :( I had to ride in it (beware the grooved pavement above Bridgeport guys). Up in Hartford, it was a nice day. Little punk on some generic 600 crotch rocket tried to smoke me on the way home. He won (I wasn't even trying), and there was even an official from the town of Bloomfield waiting to give him his prize at the next light. I'm guessing it was $100 and a few points....
My garage at my apartment got lonely this weekend and ate a car up :( And now, I see, Mr Angry Raincloud is comming over to visit. Oh well, guess it's the mall tomorrow. And a soggy run to class...
Apparently Setauket will be spared the full impact of the storm. Another reason to close down underutilized stations...
CG
Well, Eatontown, NJ just got hit hard, and I presume the NJCL at Little Silver as well. When the rain slacks off a bit more I'm going to go out and survey the damage in my yard - I could hear limbs snapping but I can't tell where yet, and as I write this the storm is picking back up - more thunder and lightening close by.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(WestBABYLON NY 11704)
We were spared the worst of this storm's wrath, but at 8:24PM there was a terrific bolt of lightning, almost directly overhead; I think it struck behind the house in VanBourgondien's Park, at least that's how it sounded; it was FLASH-BANG; no pause. As I write I hear low rumbles of thunder off to the south, off shore it sounds like.
wayne
Surprisingly, I lost only a few small branches - despite several very close strikes and what sounded like a major branch breaking in one of my half-dead maples, nothing big fell. Just as glad that Mrs. and Jr. are in North Carolina right now so the van was in the garage though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We got belted by a doozy of a spring blizzard yesterday. Some Denver suburbs got as much as 18 inches of wet snow. Believe it or not, most of it is already gone. Typical for Colorado.
They're "impacting" in downtown Manhattan and Jersey City too. Just had to hoof it home through them. Fix it Todd! Fix it!
Sorry, Dave.
They don't pay me enough to fix it. I just report it.
When I recited the PJ line station stops on-air as the "route" of the thunderstorms, I was tempted to say, "Gee! I sound just like a LIRR conductor!" but figured the station manager would yell at me for making light of severe storms.
Anyway, April showers bring May flowers.
And you know what May flowers bring, don't you?
(yeah, Pilgrims.)
Transit & Weather Together returns Thursday 4-8pm, and Friday 5am-11am and 4pm-8pm.
The only time I've ridden an el during a thunderstorm was back in
1987, when I boarded the F train at W. 8th St. at Coney Island to
return to Manhattan. The storm was just approaching as I was standing
on the platform waiting for the train, along with a couple of my
friends. I was very nervous about standing on an el platform with a
thunderstorm approaching, especially since that storm had almost
continuious lightning and thunder. Thankfully I didn't have too long
of a wait, because shortly after I got on the train, the storm hit
with a vengeance. I was almost expecting the train to get hit by
lightning!! The thing I've always wondered is:
Have there ever been incidents of people getting struck by lightning
on el station platforms while waiting for trains during thunderstorms?
Does lightning often strike trains and/or el structures?
I've often wondered these things, because most el stations are at
least a couple of stories above the street, along with the electricity
flowing through the third rails. I sure would hate to be waiting for
a train at Smith-9th St. during a thunderstorm, since it's the highest
station in the entire subway system. I wouldn't be surprised if
people have had close encounters with lightning at that station!
Lightening struck a train (NJT I presume, but perhaps Amtrak) on the NEC between NYP and NWP at the beginning of the rush hour on Wednesday, 21 March. I don't know the details but that was the explanation given to those of us who were waiting for NJCL trains at NWP around 1745 that evening. Trains from NYP were affected, not trains from Hoboken, so it must have happened relatively close to the new transfer station being constructed as you approach Bergen Hill.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On Sunday, August 1, 1971 at about 6:00PM, lightning struck the eighth car of a Jamaica-bound "QJ" train as it prepared to leave the Cleveland Street station. The train was made up of mixed R-7a and R-9 Eastern Division cars and the car which took the stroke was #1540, the south motor. I should know, I was a few cars up in that train. They took the train out of service as a precaution; everybody on the train had to huddle beneath the ancient platform shed as lightning danced madly about. There were quite a few nervous people out on that platform. The thunderstorm was of the torrential variety, with driving horizontal rain and high wind. There was a palpable smell of ozone in the air and you couldn't tell which bolt of lightning went with which clap of thunder. The sky was a greenish hue. It was quite a display. They got the train restarted and sent it up to Crescent to lay up (I saw it there as we passed later on) and eventually another "QJ" came along, this one an R42 with the A/C running full tilt, stone cold, and all the windows fogged up due to the condensation and humidity. #4866 was the lead motor to the rescue.
I wrote this incident down in my journal, which I have since transcribed a few times over the course of the years.
wayne
Yeah one day when we're expecting severe thunderstorms maybe I'll ride the 7 line. I have never rode on an El in a storm, must be fun!
But not as fun as riding The PATCO train while crossing The Ben Franklin. I was on my way home from The Echelon Mall, and a severe thunderstorm was coming, by the time the train was on The BFB, it was here, a nice size bolt flashed on my side of the train only 10' away. The best light show ever.
I was driving up Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvd. at Liberty Ave. about 15 years ago in a T-storm when I saw a flash of light and heard a sound about like someone dropping a tractor-trailer rig off an overpass. We were right in front of the 'A' elevated tracks when the lightning hit, and I don't know if the el took the blast, but the light and sound were instantanious, so the bolt had to have hit no further than two or three blocks from the intersection.
Just think what would have happened if that car had time circuits and a flux capacitor!:-)
Nah, subways never travel at 88 mph. Stupid timers.
;-)
Ah, but do you remember what happened at the end of Back to the Future II? The DeLorean with Doc Brown in it gets struck by lightning while hovering in midair and gets sent back to 1885. The time circuit had a short in it and "Jan. 1, 1885" kept showing up on the display intermittently.
Yeah, but it's got to have a Trolley Pole!!!! (Don't believe me, watch BTTF again!!)
Psssssst ... I know JUST the place where we can find some too. :)
Cloud-to-ground lightning is most likely to strike the highest spot around that can give a clear path to ground. So if there are taller buildings near the el, it's more likely the strike will be antennae or other grounded metal on the buidling tops, than the el. Of course this is not a hard-and-fast rule, so if you are outside on an el platform in a severe storm, it's best to take cover in or down the stairwell.
The fact that there's electricity flowing through the third rail makes not difference; it will neither attract nor repel lightning.
If you are on a subway train that is struck by lightning, you will generally be safe. The train will act like a farraday cage, and move along the outside skin of the car to the ground return rail (the quickest path to ground). Good tips are contained on the lightning safety Web site.
Yeah what about the front window? They say stay away from windows in thunderstorms!
That's to avoid injury if the window is broken by flying objects caused by strong winds; not due to lightning.
That's not entirely true.
The windows were open to let fresh air into our house when a vicious thunderstorm developed and I was sitting in a chair inside our den reading a book when lightning came in through the window and struck me on my back. I still have the burn marks to prove it too (I'm beginning to wonder if they're permanent).
-Robert King
It would seem to me that if you're standing under a canopy that you'd be more than adequately protected. Besides, I've riden the El many times during thunderstorms and had a blast.
Eric D. Smith
What happens if lightning strikes the third rail ? I assume circuit breaker trips until power can be restored.
Pardon my sarcasm, but if lightning strikes the third rail on a "el" structure while an R-68 was running, would it run faster ?????
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably would pop the motor breakers too, requiring it be pushed. However lightning will usually seek the easiest path to ground and that favors the RAILS getting hit and then sub-arcing to the structure. The third rail isn't as "friendly" to lightning as it's a good few ohms about ground and with multi-megavolt strikes, a few MILLIohms can make a difference in where it goes.
And since lightning is supposedly negative with respect to earth, I would expect the train to have an unexpected dynamic braking.
The meteorologist on WCBS Newsradio-880 just indicated that the current line of strong thunderstorms would be impacting the north shore of Suffolk County, and in particular, "Huntington, Greenlawn, Northport, Kings Park, Smithtown, St. James, Stony Brook, and Port Jefferson." Sound suspiciously like an LIRR branch to me...
Gee, I thought the storm was supposed to hit Deer Park, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma!
It certainly was nasty out here in central Suffolk. Around 7:30, the sky to the northwest of us, over the north shore, had a yellow-black shade that looked like tornado weather to me. Didn't get one, however.
One common occurance is the ritual AC power failures in the Rockaways during these thunderstorms. Todd if you came out a week later the last time you came out to see Mr R46 and I, you would have seen the bumping block on 4 track after it took a direct hit. Bring on some more bad weather!
Well the failures wouldn't suprise me as AC is via one transmission cable (and it's of the wood pole variety) supplying power to the Rockaways. The main line runs along the A line from Mott down to a substation not to far from Hammels Wye. And I guess part of the A and S lines are supplied by that power so trains probably would go as far as Broad Channel in that case. Good thing there's the Q53 bus, it's more frequent and reliable than that shuttle to RPK.
Service Notice
CI bound N trains running express btwn. 59th and Stillwell between 10AM and 3PM. YIKES! I hope I'll be able to do this.
Dan
You don't really have to rush. It happens more often then you think. The B Line uses that track for GOs as well. Only E3 (Manhattan-Bound) is active. E4 is sliced off from Kings Highway to 8 Avenue. The ride toward Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island is slower than the ride to Manhattan because of the wrong railing timers on the signals.
Well, Fred, your N train is running express along the Sea Beach portion - for now, anyway - albeit in one direction only.
Oh sure ... go ahead and get Uncle Fred all worked up ...
I have said this before, but the Rt. 55 corridor needs REAL commuter rail to not only Glassboro, but to Vineland and Millville. We need to get the people who live there our of their SUV's, off Rt. 55 and onto some sort of transit. Offering them the equilivent of a bus is not going to do it. The Vineland corridor was always been best suited for EMU commuter rail and it was so equipped until 1948. Even if LIAR style EMU electrification is not possible the best alternative would be a diesel hauled service, making limited stope at LARGE park n' ride facilities and running at speeds of 80 mph for sustained periods.
Until a tunnel can be built under the Delaware from Westville NJ to Greenville yards in south philly (for direct access to 30th St./Suburban station) passengers using this service could make an accross-the-platform transfer at a new PATCO station built at MILL interlocking in Camden or at an elevated terminal built over the current Rand transportation centre where the old PRSL Broadway station was situated. If the accross-the-platform option is implimented PATCO trains originating at Ferry Ave would be the only ones to stop at the new station arriving 5-10 minutes after a commuter train discharges it's passengers to pick them up for a shuttle run to philly.
Light rail would be slow (street running in Canden...remember), create a hostile environment for the Suburban crowd it should be targeting and it would be devitsating for the South Jersey rail freight industry that depends on DAYLIGHT shipments. Do you think a shortline like the SJRR or the W&W can pay people enough to work all night every night? They can barely pay people enough to work during the day.
I'm interested in more info on your proposed tunnel from Westville to Greenville Yard. Where exactly is Greenville Yard? Near the Food Distribution Center? And from there, how would passenger trains get to 30th St.? Also, would this preclude the long proposed PATCO branch line to Gloucester and points south, or would it work in conjunction with said line? Also, I don't understand the 4-letter abbreviations you use for rail locations, such as MILL. Thanks.
I believe the idiots who designed the SNJLRTS want to bring it to glassboro after the first part is complete. Of course, the second part depends on the success of the first part, and an unsuccesful line, which is my prediction for this project, will never get that far. The reason I say this is because the line does not go right into center city. Looking on the other side of the rivers, route 100 surpasses the R5 in almost every way, with the possible exception of parking spaces, and with the definite exception of a one seat ride into center city. The non-across the platform transfer at 69th Street is killing this otherwise excellent line. The same will happen with a transfer at Walter Rand with PATCO. I truly hope to see a PATCO extension sometime.
That seems to make a lot of sense. I would much prefer to take the 100 rather than the R6 if were ever to need to go to N'town, but the transfer at 69th St. would be a definite turnoff.
Greenwich (not Greenville, that's in Jersey City) yard is the big rail yard in South Philly and it is right accross the river from Westville, NJ. There is a lot of open space for a tunnel portal and would allow for a Sports Complex station so people from South Jersey could take commuter rail right to the various events. The tunnel would start in the 3 track RoW north of Woodbury NJ and dive under the river ro Greenwich Yard. The line would then run north to ARSENAL where trains would access track 9/10 at 30th St. station or run all the way into Suburban.
MILL is not an abbreviation, but the name of an interlocking. CP-MILL is located at the point where the CR and PATCO RoW's diverge just after PATCO emerges from underground in Camden.
I'm glad I rarely ride them. Over the past week I've noticed several Amtrak annoyances on trains I wasn't on...
Sunday, 6:00 PM, the Three Rivers arrives in Newark a whole hour early. Don't break out the champagne yet, the entire train was ass backward. E-60, 3 Coaches, Horizon Dinette, Heritage Sleeper, Baggage Cars in that order. All the seats were facing backwards. No real dining car. I'm glad they no longer call it the Broadway Limited...
Today, between 5:30 and 6:30 PM: I believe the railroad is called Amtrak, right? Not MARC? You couldn't tell by looking at the trains! It's a Monday, not a holiday, no excuse to run MARC trains instead of Amfleets for the poor saps who paid for a $45+ ticket. Two trains, one with 3 heritages and a Marc II and the other with 2 Marc IIs and a heritage were out in one short hour.
A train is leaving track 8 for Sunnyside. Right behind is the empire corridor train full of customers passengers guests. Don't bother putting it on a different track, discharge with only two cars in the station and make people walk the entire platform length to the exit (with luggage), make sure the escalator is going the wrong way, and force them to endure the loud noise of the Genesis engine for those interminable seconds while trying to get out.
Amtrak train has engine problems. People instructed to go to the Clocker on track 7, it would leave first and they don't know when it would be fixed. Too bad the Clocker had already been announced, the people sitting on a dead train for a half hour don't get first crack at the seats.
It's 6:05. The 6:00 Metroliner is finally ready for boarding. No, you can't use both sides to get down, I don't care how long the line is for the one escalator you have to go downstairs and around, I refuse to reverse the escalator to help you. Better hurry up, they're announcing the final call.
It's things like this which make me wish NJTransit still had direct service to Philly.
The rest of your post represent genuine criticism, but this one...
>Sunday, 6:00 PM, the Three Rivers arrives in Newark a whole hour
>early. Don't break out the champagne yet, the entire train was ass
>backward. E-60, 3 Coaches, Horizon Dinette, Heritage Sleeper,
>Baggage Cars in that order. All the seats were facing backwards.
You'll be glad that you don't live in Europe. It is normal practice for trains to be reversed at terminals without turning seats round. In fact, seats are fitted in such a way that some seats will always be facing backwards and others facing forwards, with a table in between. I always choose the backwards-facing seats for crash protection.
Lexcie
Similar practice is done here, too, there is a lot of Amtrak equipment with the half-forward half-backward arrangement (Turboliners, ACELA, stuff on the Keystone and Clockers). Most of the Commuter rail around here has that. This is the first I've ever seen with an entire train with all the seats backward. And the train itself is backward, the baggage cars are usually first, followed by Dorm, Sleeper, Dining, Coach. And this is a long distance overnight train! 20 straight hours of backward running, and trying to sleep with that to boot!
I doubt that the train was run backwards the entire night. Some Amtrak trains run backward between NYP and Philly because of the routing they are taking once they leave Philadelphia. I'm not familiar enough with the different routes to be sure, but I think that the Three Rivers is among them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is; the Three Rivers changes direction at 30th Street Station. It comes in from the west, turns south at Zoo to 30th, then comes back east in the opposite direction, with the power added where the freight had been removed.
Good point well made. It's pretty obvious that the E60 would not have made it beyond 30th Street, unless they particularly wanted to run it round and take it to Harrisburg and *then* hook a diesel on, which would probably have to run lite engine there _anyway_. I don't recall there being a booked crossing of The Three Rivers at H'burg.
Lexcie
Any train to/from Harrisburgh runs backwards Sunnyside-Philly becuase of the track arangement at Philly. Keystone trains have half the seats backwards.
I figured this out, oddly enough, while riding the NJT Raritan Valley Line past Roselle Park. Freight trains must pass the station at high speeds, so they must be further from the platform. Passenger trains have to stop there, so they must be close to the platform. Result, a mini switch which shifts freight trains onto an alternate pair of rails, pushing them a half-foot further from the platform. Translate this to the topic at hand: Install a second pair of running rails along the line the redbirds would be used on (*cough*G*cough*). Either only at the stations or for the whole length. Have punch switches to select what car is being used, or better yet put Wheel Detector(TM) technology to good use and have the track figure out the car class. Have redbirds switch to the rails closer to the platform, no more unsightly oversized gap.
Food for thought, I doubt this is a practical solution, it's probably cheaper to lease secondhand cars from other systems!
For whatever it's worth, the freights aren't being moved away from the platform because of speed, they're being moved out since many modern freight cars are wider than standard passenger cars. Someone else can probably find the exact dimensions and the "plate" specs (a template that defines total height, width, and height above the rail at the lowest point of a car) currently in use by the freight railroads - the AAR website doesn't have that info, although I believe they defined the specs - and the passenger car standard is probably out there somewhere too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just how bad would the gap be from train doorway to platform? I know on the LIRR it's commonplace to have some fairly threatenning gaps. I used to be slightly uncomfortable as I took the big step from the Lindenhurst platform, across the abbyss, onto the train.
:-) Andrew
Eight or ten inches - not acceptable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Plus the tripcocks are on the other side.
Minor point, put R-33 singles on the ends of the trains.
There's a culture, so to speak, of "minding the gap" on the LIRR. People on the subway would have to get used to this--and remember the much greater crush of people, more school kids, etc.
I'm afraid it would be inviting a litigation nightmare.
Plus the fact that a small child could end up waist deep if both legs fell throught the gap...
While looking at the new London pictures, I wondered. There are some large gaps between the platform and the train. Is this gap wider, narrower or the same than a gap created by an IRT train on the B div?
I forget which station on the Central Line my British friend brought attention to the curve and gap at. It was indeed greater than the gap caused by A div cars at B div. stations, and no gap filler either; just a recording playing "Mind the Gap"
Actually the difference at floor level between A and B div cars is one foot meaning a 6" difference on each side which isn't really much and could be safe if between crowding, hurry, and mind on other things didn't cause accidents. As it is there is an occasional "space" case involving somebody's foot caught between train and platform even with the close clearances for normal operation, so being that it's NYC narrower cars could cause havoc. Or should I say the people's methods could cause havoc.
The difference is 8'9" to 9'11".
Am I the only one who vividly recalls a computerized voice droning on and on, "Mindeh the gap! Mindeh the gap!"? I think it was at Embankment on the Circle/District.
No you're not the only one who's heard that.. I've only been in London a few days but seems we rode the Central Line [me and my Britih friends who lived in Northholt] and thta was where I heard it.When I travelled by myself I usualy took the District Line to the end and thenbacktracked on the Central.
This would involve a major capital expenditure for a temporary situation. Not to mention complexities of operation and wear and tear of the extra switch points.
Imagine what would happen if there's a screw-up and a 10' car gets switched onto the 9' track?
Gap fillers would probably be cheaper and more feasible, but this expenditure wouldn't be justified for the short term either. The BMT actually wanted these on the Flushing and Astoria Line. See the paragraphs titled Rapid Transit for Queens.
What would you do about the second third rail, which has a lower height installation for IRT cars? Add more mainline track switches, double the running rails and EVERY stop arm motor in the system will have to be modified so that two trippers are present for every block. Can I sell you a bridge?
I'll take one.
Seriously, though, skirting the redbirds couldn't be too expensive. You don't even need to do the whole thing, just the door areas. Put a steel plate the width of the door on hinges and two support poles attached to the outside of the plate and the car midway up to form a right triangle (car, plate are legs and supports are hypotenuse). If you wanted to I'm sure you could even make them retractable. Sure you still have a gap, but if nobody falls into the tracks when the platform is full and there's no train in the station, why should they when the platform is full and there is a train?
Dan
The money cars have removable skirts. We used one that was coupled to some R-32's at Jamaica to practice keying by and call-ons. They had some extra skirts lying inside the cars. They bold on, I believe.
I have a better idea: forget the skirts and keep the trains where they are. The rush hour 1/9 needs a service boost desparately. It can finally get one. Don't throw away the opportunity.
[I have a better idea: forget the skirts and keep the trains where they are. The rush hour 1/9 needs a service boost desparately. It can finally get one. Don't throw away the opportunity.]
I have a better plan that will solve both problems. Run a B division train at high velocity through the IRT tunnels. That will enlarge the tunnels and push back the platforms, increasing IRT capacity and ending the compatibility issues once and for all.
LOL!
With today's crash standards the car would crush. What you need is a set of tanks (Standards) which would survive almost anything !!
Or Triplexes. The next best thing to a bulldozer. At least they stand a chance to make it around the South Ferry loop.
Or Triplexes. The next best thing to a bulldozer. At least they stand a chance to make it around the South Ferry loop.
I want a ringside seat when a 75-footer tries to make the turn between Hunterspoint and 45 Rd/Courthouse Sq at high speed.
:) Andrew
That would leave 72nd Street with no platforms at all! I can just imagine the routine -- halfway down the staircase -- aim -- jump! Changing from express to local? Hope they arrive at the same time and just hop from one to the other. Mind the gap!
>>Result, a mini switch which shifts freight trains onto an alternate pair of rails, pushing them a half-foot further from the platform. Translate this to the topic at hand: Install a second pair of running rails along the line the redbirds would be used on (*cough*G*cough*). Either only at the stations or for the whole length. Have punch switches to select what car is being used, or better yet put Wheel Detector(TM) technology to good use and have the track figure out the car class. Have redbirds switch to the rails closer to the platform, no more unsightly oversized gap.<<
1. While this is quite a cool solution, you forgot one thing. The 3rd rail. If you shift the whole train over, you'll also need the 3rd rail shifted over. Now, you need 2x the power to run trains. Further, this prevents ALL standard B division equipment from running there.
2. You are right. This would be expensive.
3. All right. Enough cracking on the G!! Everone here seems more than happy to just cut it up and say: well, we can just keep cutting back G service to help other lines. I think that the G can get cut from 71st. But, I think it would be better to keep running the G to 71st. Plus, nobody seems to realize that during rush hour, the G gets heavy service between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Bedford-Nostrand Avs. 4 car trains will not be enough, unless you plan to run them more frequently.
Why not cut it to Hoyt-Schermerhorn at the other end.
>>Why not cut it to Hoyt-Schermerhorn at the other end.<<
First of all, there's no scissor switch at Hoyt Schermerhorn. Second, Lots of people ride the G from Smith 9th. If you ever get on at 4th Av, you'll see that they always hold a G at 4th av. so that an F can go ahead. Reason? People want to get on that G train. So, why should all these people in South Brooklyn have to suffer just so those people in Queens can be happy?
P.S. Third: Ever try reading out Schermerhorn. Looks SS-cher-mer-horn, but it's really Skemerhorn. This was totally irrelevant.
If they created a transfer between the (G) and (C) at Fulton-Lafeyette, they could cut the (G) even further. I'm not saying they should, just that they could, and probably would.
Even if they didn't cut it back, I'd say such a transfer is a good idea, if only so they could also connect it to the Flatbush Ave/Atlantic Ave/Pacific St. complex.
:-) Andrew
Great minds think alike. I want to see those stations connected as well, at least via MetroCard and preferably physically.
I'm not looking at the track map now, but IIRC Lafayette could become an express stop with the addition of a single crossover. (There would be no additional merging delays since the local and express currently merge one stop over anyway.)
Wow it felt like June today with hazy sunshine and temperatures into the 70s. A day for the beach.
I took the A train (R44s) which was very fast on the Fulton express, stations were a blur. Then a great run on the flats before Broad Channel. Who said 44's were slow?
Got off at Broad channel and had to wait for the shuttle train.
I took it to Rockaway Park and walked around the boardwalk there.
Nice authentic LIRR-like station, and a nice cool breeze from the water. Walked the boardwalk, reminds me of Long Beach abit.
Seems to be a mostly jewish area, and some of the houses that are toward the west end of the walk look upscale.
Also good amount of shopping and eateries, from Chinese to Wendy's.
All electric lines are above ground and LIPA.
Then I took a Q53 up to Elmhurst. The Orion CNG ride was smooth and fast. Nice fast series 50 really gets up to speed in Broad channel and on parts of Woodhaven Blvd. Bus seemed in good shape, and we're spoiled with express style seats. No stops from Broad Channel to Rego Park means one fast ride. Next time I go to Rock.Pk I'm taking the Q53 both ways, it's faster than taking the 7 (Or E,F) into Manhattan than an A then a shuttle. Of course riding the A though is fun, though the 20 minute wait for a shuttle at Broad Channel is no picnic.
The Q53 seems to re-trace the old abandoned LIRR Rockaway line. Now if only the line can become part of the NYC subways and connect to Queens Blvd, wouldn;t that be nice?
Got some bad thunderstorms tonight, lots of lightning and heavy rain, so for now the warm weather is on the hold.
I've always loved the Rockaways as a way to get home, sometimes I will take one of the Rock Park direct A trains, then take the Q-53 home to Rego Park. It's free (student pass), why not?
Yeah, sure beats Sea Cliff. I got home tonight and my place felt like an oven. It sure gets hot as hell up here in Sea Cliff and northern Nassau. 80 degrees before I opened all the windows and put on the fan.
Sure makes me appreciate that cool sea breeze you get in the Rockaways. It can be in the 70s down there in summer while it's 90 in NYC and the northern half of Nassau county. When I got off the Q53 in Elmhurst it felt like an oven outside compared to when I got on.
You can bet I'll be spending alot of time in the Rockaways this summer to escape the heat in Sea Cliff, and I better not be alone this time (if you know what I mean).
Please any cute mystical girls out there from China email me I'm so lonely!! :-)
I'm 25 and I haven't had a girlfriend since I was 16!! Help!
We don't need to know about your social problems, it's depressing. I liked it better when you bitched about Sea Cliff and Flushing.
Pork, you're really in a bade mude today, first it was suburbaners, then you're now taking it out on a poor railfan. You should be ashamed of yourself. Beef tastes better in any case.
I have sympathy with Qtrain or whatever his handle was - I was in the same boat for a long time. Girls of this world ought to understand things like why chasing trains is fun.
Lexcie
Pork, you're really in a bade mude today, first it was suburbaners, then you're now taking it out on a poor railfan. You should be ashamed of yourself. Beef tastes better in any case.
It's not a bad mood, I always take it out on the wasteland suburbs.
It's not a bad mood, I always take it out on the wasteland suburbs.
I'm sorry, I crossed out the wrong word.
Girls of this world ought to understand things like why chasing trains is fun.
They should, but most don't.
Girls of this world ought to understand things like why chasing trains is fun.
Surely you have other interests besides trains. I talk about other things that I like. I never talk about subways with girls I know. I know they aren't interested.
Rob: It depends on who the girl is. I know of one who hears me drone on about the Sea Beach incessantly, but then, she tells me about shopping and clothes and I listen to what she has to say. If a girl is really interested in a guy, and, of course, vise versa, they listen to each other and take pleasure in seeing what brings joy to them. So you are only partially right. Just ask my wife.
Qtraindash7,
I'm going to be very blunt with you so don't take anything the wrong way.
Girls are NOT going to talk to you first, you have to take the initiative and go out there to clubs or whatever and take things into your own hands. YOU have to start conversations.
>>>I'm 25 and I haven't had a girlfriend since I was 16!! Help!<<<
If you don't get over your self pity, shyness or whatever it is, you'll be 45 and not have a girlfriend since you were 16. You will never have a relationship, let alone get laid, unless you get off your fat ass and get out there and do something about it. TAKE SOME INITIATIVE MAN!!!
Let me tell you a true story that happened to me. I was in your shoes once for 4 years. I got scared stiff whenever I attempted to talk to a pretty girl so most times I wouldn't even attempt it. One time as a C/R, I was working the G train on a Saturday when the trains were still terminating at Queens Plaza. When I got off the train at QP, BOOM! There was a strikingly beautiful girl there who was waiting for an R train. An actress! Well I started to talk to her and we were hitting it off! So her R train started to pull in and I was about to ask her for her phone number and what happened? I froze like a perdue chicken. She got on her train and took off with a look on her face that said "why didn't you ask me for my number?"
Man, I was so disgusted and thoroughly pissed off at myself that I was embarrassed to even look in the mirror. That moment changed my life. I finally realized that the worst thing that a woman can say to you is "no". So I started talking to girls both on and off the job, the first few didn't budge but then WHOOSH! I was getting about 4-5 phone numbers a week without even trying. One of those numbers turned out to be my current wife.
You need to get out of this rut John. Change things that you do, go to places that people mingle, church is one, singles parties, perform volunteer work, ANYTHING except what you're doing right now. Others in this forum will be glad to give you additional ideas. Like I said, the worst that a woman can say to you is "no". If she does say no, say to yourself "her loss" and move to the next one, in a short time, you'll have the personal life that you've been dreaming about for years. BUT NOT UNTIL YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I found that out the hard way myself.
Rant over,
Zman
Absolutely correct. Shyness doesn't do anyone good and I should beat it!
So I started talking to girls both on and off the job, the first few didn't budge but then WHOOSH! I was getting about 4-5 phone numbers a week without even trying. One of those numbers turned out to be my current wife.
Being a uniformed transit worker probably makes it easier to meet women. Many women are rather hesitant to talk with strange men these days, let alone give out their phone numbers. But if a woman sees a man in a transit uniform, she probably is less suspicious - after all, it shows that the man is likely to be a reasonably respectable person with a decent job.
Being an uniformed transit worker also leaves yourself open to a sexual harrassment accusation by the customers. I would be glad to hear if things aren't that bad over in New York, but over here, the f___ing English people accuse you of sexual harrassment if you look at them once instead of twice whilst walking through the train checking their tickets. Not that I have ever been a conductor, but I have heard various things from various people. I don't think the notion of sexual harrassment should ever have been allowed into the law books.
Lexcie
I agree the notion of sexual harrasment shouldn't be in the law books.
It's another weapon women have in the war of the sexes.
You can't even compliment a woman in the workplace, you'll be accused of sexual harrassment. Fortunately there are still places where one is free to compliment (far away, mystical lands). :-)
[You can't even compliment a woman in the workplace, you'll be accused of sexual harrassment.]
To borrow a quote from Bill Clinton: that depends on what you mean by 'compliment'?
BMTman
He can go to St.Leonard's church on Wilson ave and Jefferson st.Lots of singles events there.
Since we're all starting on this topic, Lexcie may as well offer his usual crap advice:
Girls are NOT going to talk to you first, you have to take the initiative and go out there to clubs or whatever and take things into your own hands.
That is kinda true, but I've learnt through bitter experience that girls who hang around in clubs or whatever waiting to be picked up aren't worth their body weight alone even if they weigh 220lbs. I've never been quite sure how to meet the sort of girls I like: the type that stays at home and enjoys a good evening in more than a day out; when going out prefers a dinner and a night at the theatre than at a nightclub.
But there were other ways to meet people other than by going out on the night. I found that it is actually possible to meet people on the internet, if you like the stay-in-the-house kind. I also found that intercity trains are a great meeting venue. An ex-girlfriend of mine and I met on a London-Edinburgh trip (4.5 hours) but she had to get off about half-way in Durham to see her then-boyfriend. Apparently, after she got off the train, she started walking northwards instead of southwards towards their shared home. I took a decidedly safer approach than stuffing her with my phone #. I gave her my e-mail and website address, and of course my # is on my website. I was actually quite bowled over when she e-mailed me the next night. After all, I give my e-mail address to many fellow passengers over the years and not many of them have got in touch.
I really like trains, but not just from a railfan perspective. It's a great venue for a spontanious party. I had heaps of fun on successive Lake Shore Limiteds - New Yorkers are never shy to meet complete foregin strangers on the train, to the extent that I always make sure I catch that train when going west. It's too much fun. The Three Rivers and the Pennsylvanian is usually a lot quieter.
There was a strikingly beautiful girl there who was waiting for an R train. An actress! Well I started to talk to her and we were hitting it off! So her R train started to pull in and I was about to ask her for her phone number and what happened? I froze like a perdue chicken. She got on her train and took off with a look on her face that said "why didn't you ask me for my number?"
I got a question for you. Why didn't she ask for your number? In this day and age it is acceptable for girls to ask for guys' numbers. You didn't have to ask for her number. You could have given her your number, which would be seen as less intrusive. Get some cards printed up or something. I usually keep a pile of white stock cards in my pocket, so that if I ever had to write something down for someone I will always have some cards. Girls aren't really impressed by this kinda stuff, but at least having a piece of card rather than a scrap of paper meant that you are more likely to be remembered and less likely to be tossed out when there is a handbag clearout.
Interestingly, I find that my persistent tendency to flirt had become a bit of a problem with my current situation: in a stable-ish relationship. I find that I wonder about all those people who have passed me by. That one Lincolnshire girl I met at the University of Durham open day, where did she go? (I didn't get her # or gave her my e-mail, but only because of a stupid mistake - I rushed for the train instead of waiting for the next one.) Anyway... enough of this... on with the railfanning. But for me, trains/public transport and females are almost inseparable.
-Lexcie, Edinburgh Scotland/Marion Ohio.
Girls in clubs, even dating services can be very particular in terms of what kind of man they want. They usually want tall,muscular, and a nice car (lots of $$$). I'm not tall, muscular, or drive a car so there goes that theory.
When I was younger I just though that women usually date guys that are a similar size and vice versa. But lots of women my height walk around with guys that are 6 feet.
In other cultures, like china for example I don't think height plays as much as a role, because most people in that country are shorter.
But in order to meet these girls I have to become fluent in the Chinese language (I only know a little). Ones that don't speak chinese are usually to Americanized for me anyway.
It just seems that women seem to go for tall guys. Alot of men don't seem to think that it's true, but if you speak to guys that are 5'3 and under they have difficulties dating. Also being short sucks when a taller guy is in front of the railfan window, you can't even peer out.
I've asked girls for their phone number in the past, but i'll admit they weren't "mystical" girls. You have to start a conversation firstanyway, and most places where I'll run into mystical girls are in the subway or on the bus. there it is possible to start a conversation.
One time I saw one while riding a Q train and she had the railfan window. As we went through the 34-W4th dash I said to her "that's some great dash, it's so fast" but she just ignored me.
She seemed to want to talk to a TALL guy instead!! Urggghhh!
Girls in clubs, even dating services can be very particular in terms of what kind of man they want. They usually want tall,muscular, and a nice car (lots of $$$). I'm not tall, muscular, or drive a car so there goes that theory.
This is exactly what I mean. Not worth the paper they're printed on. In fact, they are smudged. I've made a few retorts in my time. People ask me what car I drove, and I told them that I drove a BREL class 158 diesel multiple unit. I proceeds to tell them that it is 150 ft long and is the most phallic vehicle they are likely to see. People either run away thinking I am weird (in which case they can rot in the gutters like the rest of 'em English) or they become intrigued and wondered what I'm actually up to. For your information, I am not actually a currently certified engineer, but was at one point.
I think that one's self-confidence or un-shyness doesn't really have anything to do with one's height of physique. People assume big guys have big ego. Not really. I have always thought that really short people have far more of an impact, because the same personality is compressed into a smaller volume and when they explode people really listen. If you're a tall guy, you'll find yourself bumping into the roof on London subway cars and look really silly with your head tilted to one side as you ride on the Piccadilly line. People who are tall have just as much problems as people who are short. It's hard to have a sense of presence when you're tall or muscular, because that's what everyone sees. In my past social circles, I was always noted for being the centre of controversy, for being verbal and articulate, none of which are a physical quality. I'm about 5'5" by the way - much to my American girlfriend's disappointment (she's some 5'8"). I am not trying to make you seem stupid, I just think you could achieve the same thing if you somehow carve out your niche in the market, certainly not by physique.
This niche could be your love for trains - or something else you're interested in - provided that you aren't excessive about it. I know it is hard for railfans to understand this, but there is a limit to how much you can love these metal objects. Nonetheless, exaulted in a positive way, the girls will be running after you. Remember how cool it was in the 60s to own a Harley-Davidson? But I am sure not many of the girls were interested the number of pistons it has or what type of lubrication oil was best for the mechanism. It's all about how you market your expertise. My alleged expertise in passenger trains had been packaged in apparently vast knowledge of romantic train-rides you could take across many continents; neat and elegant 19th century steam engines; even the potential risky fun on mass-transit vehicles; fast and sexy method of transportation (who else can claim they regularly travel at 140mph on the ground)? Remember, the females in general aren't too interested in the technical side. Tone that down, and market the experience. Sooner or later you'd have some chick wanting to go with you on a transcontinental Amtrak trip. Reserve a cabin, not two coach seats. Girls love to travel, and whilst they think they have it all with cars... not so. You need to sell the train concept to the current generation of American teenage girls who have never experienced the 20th Century Limited. On the whole, dashing trains aren't interesting, but having sex in the rear cab compartment of an MU can be great fun. An Acela is just as sexy as a thoroughbred horse, a Concorde, a Porsche, or the highest-power Harley Davidson.
One last question, Qtrain-7, are you Chinese? This isn't meant to be rude, I just wondered what your fascination with Chinese people are. My parents are from the Formosa and I have a first-hand understanding of Chinese culture, so if you want we can talk about this off-list. My e-mail is lexcie@zetnet.co.uk I really sympathize with you, because, like I said, I was there. I wish I were able to help you better but I understand how difficult it is for someone who isn't naturally confident like me to develop a outgoing personality. However, really knowing that you do have the edge often helps. That's the reason why EMD outsold Fairbanks-Mooose; EMD knew they had the edge and capitalized on it aggressively.
-Lexcie
You have to start a conversation firstanyway, and most places where I'll run into mystical girls are in the subway or on the bus. there it is possible to start a conversation
No it's not! It might seem like a strange thing to do, but the worse thing they can do is to get off at the next stop and wait for the next train. You don't exactly want to acquire a reputation for doing it, but who's going to know. I do agree that it is harder in a large city where everyone is rushing and nobody trusts anybody else, but if you are either on Metro North or LIRR I don't see why you shouldn't strike up a conversation with a fellow passenger. What's better: if you do meet someone, they would be local too. Delayed trains are one of the best excuses to start a conversation. You could simply make a remark about the scenery. You could tell someone that they look pretty. No, not likely to get you anywhere in the short term, but you never know. I once chatted someone up because she boarded a station-connector bus about 2 blocks from the rail station and paid 80 cents for her ride, so I said, "You realize you're only two blocks away from the station, don't you?" To which she responded, "These shoes are killing me." Voila, you've got a headstart, you're talking about something they're wearing already.
I know, I'm unconventional and most people would think this is the worst advice. But herein lies Qtrain-7's edge in a world populated with pompous tall fellas with eight inch sticks. That's not the market in which I specialize.
Yeah well the bus has plenty of delays here on LI, but not too many mystical girls ride the bus.
One good thing if you're stuck in a Hippo between stations, if there's a mystical girl talking to you!
if there's a mystical girl talking to you!
What's with you and "mystical girls?" Have you ever talked with a Chinese woman? I know several and they are all normal to me. Nothing mysterious about them.
You sound like your self-confidence is shot. And STOP making excuses. For all you know that 6 foot woman might dig midgets.
Just attempt to start things off and see where it goes. Don't worry about size or ethnicity or whatever. And don't let failure get you down, just keep on going.
Think about this, Ted Williams is known as one of the best hitters to play the game of baseball, but yet even he f*cked up 6 times out of 10.
If you really dig Chinese girls then good for you, but don't just limit yourself to them. Who knows though, you might get lucky and you can put your egg roll into her steamed dumplings. But be careful of the Pu-Pu Platter.
Rim shot!
>>>I got a question for you. Why didn't she ask for your number?<<<
Cause she was a stupid git.
Now a days though I leave girls alone. I never ask for phone numbers and I refuse to date.................because my wife would take my bottom lip and pull it over my head.
I hear you, brother.
There is a certain young lady in my Class, half Greek (Hellas Yeah! ;-), half Maple-Leaf French* (how romantic!).
What I wouldn't do to spend some time with her!
@>------ XOXOXO @>------
Her flowing brunette hair draped across her sultry face truely is a sight to behold, and her impressive knowledge of European literature and history is something to appreciate and her light-heartedness and sense of humor is a characteristic to cherish.
But I'm afraid we don't have the best air between us. See, I once slipped her a couple too many love letters and kind of scared her away. Now I'd do anything to get her back. And because June is fast approaching, when we'll be graduating and going our seperate ways, a sense of urgency is strongly upon me and growing each day.
But the few times we actually talk to each other seem to go pretty good and whereas, a year ago, she would hardly glance at me, she is now laughing at my stupid jokes and commentary, so maybe there is hope.
All I can do is pray and hope that someday, sometime in the future, we'll meet again.
(*"Maple-Leaf French" - French-Canadian.)
All I can do is pray and hope that someday, sometime in the future, we'll meet again.
Or you can go for it.
Remember, you graduate in June. If she rejects you, then you never have to see her again in your life.
I'm afraid the damage is done - after a couple letters with no response from her, she fell under the impression that I was some sort of sick person trying to stalk her, when in fact, that was not my intention at all. I NEVER wanted to scare her or make her feel threatened.
But at least some mending seems to be going on now, but its still a little shaky - I don't want to push or come on to her too strong, because that's what screwed me the first time.
I suppose I could survive on a simple correspondance with her (but not that "just friends" crap).
So like I said, any meaningful relationship will have to be an act of God.
If you don't ask her out, you'll be dreading this for the rest of your life. You'll be saying to yourself "why didn't I ask her before she left". If she declines, at least you tried and you won't regret anything. Ask her nicely. No letters, just do it face to face.
DAMNIT!!! THE WORST THING THAT SHE CAN SAY IS NO!!!
[I'm afraid the damage is done - after a couple letters with no response from her, she fell under the impression that I was some sort of sick person trying to stalk her, ]
I'd say use e-mail, after all it's 21st Century! :-)
Arti
Myself, Marty, and NYCTransit did some great exploring today. went around the old LIRR tracks by the A train Towards North Conduit Ave, SPent the day at the rockaways, explored the abandoned pillboxes and barraks at Fort Tilden, SNeaked into the Hammels Wye SHop, and Rockaway industrial park wasteland, and DID GRAFFITI GRAFFITI GRAFFITI, Us 3 had a great day at the rockaway park area.
Would you like to post your home address here so I can write all over your house in spray paint and scratch the windows with sandpaper? You wouldn't mind, would you (since you do it to others)?
there is a certain respect here, I never put graffiti onprivate houses or apartment buildings, or peoples cars
Then show that same respect to the taxpayers who paid for the subway which all of us use. And show yourself a little respect, too.
SeveN: If you want to put graffiti on anything why not put on your own property and not on someone else's property. That is just common respect. I don't think people like to have their property graffitied and I would certaily take that to heart before you begin your artwork.
Just for your information, I do infact do legal "graffiti" and have dont sanctioned work. The whole illegal..wait a second no no no, wont say anymore.
If it's legal graffiti fine. I would like to see some of your work someday. Just the legal part. Go to it.
If you are seriously interested in seeing my legal murals i'll be more then happy to e-mail the addresses where around the city i done them, just let me know,
Just for your information, I do infact do legal "graffiti" and have done sanctioned work. The whole illegal..wait a second no no no, wont say anymore.
SeveN: I live in California but I have been able to get to New York each of the last three years. Give me the areas where your graffiti artwork is and I'll write it down for future reference.
i'll e-mail it to you shortly
>>and DID GRAFFITI GRAFFITI GRAFFITI,<<
Are you implying that you graffitied things that didn't belong to you? If so, shame on you. Shame shame shame.
Dan
i'll make sure to slap my wrist
One day you will wind up just like the knuckle-dragger that was arrested on the Dyre Ave. line 2 weeks ago. Aside from his lost cam-corder, his legal expenses for the felony arrest will amount to a considerable sum. I'll admit that I was wrong. You are a moron.
Steve, care to enlighten us? Did some railfan go beyond the bounds of what is permissible?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not a railfan. One of SeveN's bretherend who not only painted trains but then videotaped the results. Of course, since he too was smarter than the vandal squad he never expected to get caught. He turned out to be a very accommodating vandal. He came with his own evidence - the tape in the camcorder and a knapsack of paint.
Wowsers ... there's a Darwin award winner ...
He isn't sterile or dead.
Step back and give him room to breathe ... heh.
There is one reason I have a very little chance of getting caught, can any of you knuckleheads figure out what that is?
If someone really wanted to they could nab you rather easily you see you barged about breaking the law on a public website. If someone wanted to go out of their way they could force Dave to give them the name you signed up with and also the E-mail address. If they wanted to they could track you down. And you have already given them all the evidence they need.
great i can't wait
If someone really wanted to they could nab you rather easily you see you barged about breaking the law on a public website. If someone wanted to go out of their way they could force Dave to give them the name you signed up with and also the E-mail address. If they wanted to they could track you down. And you have already given them all the evidence they need.
Ummm ... one of them might be that you don't videotape yourself doing it and the other is likely that you don't do that anymore. :)
well good guesses, and i wont disclose whether i went transit lately or not. and no i wouldnt videotape if i did do it
Heh. You'll never make the Darwin awards with an attitude like that. :)
I'm certain I know why you've never been caught and NEVER will.
You're been Bulls--ing us the whole time about being a Graffiti artist. The whole thing was a ruse.
I think you enjoyed busting our collective balls as it were, and you don't do near close to anything that you're espoused here at SubTalk. Am I right? Do I win the $1,000,000????
Come on and fess up.....I'm waiting....
BMTman
This is a way to provoke me into telling you even more detail about my doings, I wont fall for this trap, I wont fess up to anything.
Sounds more like a Dumbest Criminal Award winner to me.
Dumbest huh? why, is it because its trains? its definately no because i dont get caught, what if i painted garbage trucks would anyone care?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Garbage trucks. That's funny!
Look; a dog with a bushy tail... Come here doggy. DHO!!
glad you're back did u get my email?
oh yea and actually graffiti on garbage trucks used to be very common, some great pieces came out on that SPAR ONE did some great shit on those elephants.
defacing property of others is not fun. I would not do this- but would I be allowed to deface your property- of course not and I would not dream of doing so. I was taught to respect the property of others.
SeveN's days are numbered--at some point they will be caught and prosecuted. The police do watch for vandalism and graffiti and take note of patterns- to the popint of taking photos for evidence. I have seen (I will not state the stations) people led away for graffiti.
To all Subtalkers- if you respect your property then you should respect the property of others.
Has anyone ever been to Phun Phactory in hunters point, Queens? Dont you people just want to shoot those bastards
You watch and see
Sounds like an awesome time; I wish I was there. Except of course for the vandalism.
There was a series of childrens books written about a fictional six year old girl who lived in the Plaza Hotel. Eloise was that girl, she spent most of her time raising hell in the Plaza and writing her name on mirrors using a lipstick. Now, SeveN, repeat after me- I am SeveN I live in New York City. I am six --- LOSER
Why does the Sea Beach portion of the N Line have express tracks for its entire length (59th Street to Coney Island) but not a single station?
This question has been asked a number of times here and elsewhere and I and others have answered it piecemeal.
I posted a mini-history Sea Beach express track FAQ at rapidtransit.net.
If anyone thinks there are inaccuracices, or wants clarifications or has comments, feel free to post them here.
Thanks, Paul... since I don't know the history that well myself I can't really comment, but it seems complete from my limited point of view.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I they really want to do things the right way to connect Staten Island they should build a subway tunnel from St. George to the Whitehall Street station on the BMT. Then they can build a second tunnel from St. George to the 59th Street on the BMT 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn. Then they should extend SIRT service to Arlington. At the same time they can also build a freight railroad tunnel from Bush Terminal in Brooklyn to Staten Island and/or to Jersey City.
BMTJeff
If I had my druthers....
phillyguy:
Do you think that having a subway connection between Manhattan and Staten Island would be a good idea and between Brooklyn and Staten Island?
BMTJeff
Just a reminder there will be a Subtalk trip meeting at 10am Tuesday at the downtown platform at Jay Street/Boro hall.
I'll be there wearing a blue jacket.
I'll probably have to leave Sea Cliff real early, I want to be on that F train out of 179 by 8:45am.
Stay on till Jay.
Extend HBLR over the Bayonne Bridge or via a new bridge or tunnel to Staten Island, eunning at least to St. George. On this part I believe NJT is more than willing but that the MTA would rather drink hemlock.
Then convert SIRT to light rail. The combination would still be a two-seat ride (change for PATH in Jersey City) but it beats currently feasible arrangements by a mile.
That's a nice idea. I'm still trying to get a fix on just where the Bayonne HBLR station is being built in relation to the Bayonne bridge. If you live in the general SI area there, close to the bridge, can you walk or bicycle across and catch HBLR (when the station opens in '02 or '03)?
Is it close enough?
The bike / pedestrian exit to the bridge is at 3 st in Bayonne, and the station is at 22nd. Looking at MapQuest it does not seem all that far to bicycle, but it would be a bit of a walk. When the station opens, I plan on taking the SI bus to the Bayonne bridge and walking over, validating my first ticket of the day at the new station. Hopefully it will be spring or summer, though...
For other ways of improving access to SI, a few proposals:
1 - Some sort of either ferry or bus service connecting Tottenville to NJTransit. I can see the trains from Tottenville, on a clear day read the car numbers! I'm sure lower SI residents would appreciate being able to take a train south (free ride), a short ferry, then NJT to Penn Station in midtown, esp. since not all SI residents want to go to lower Manhattan! Plus the NJT ride from Perth Amboy is much shorter than SIR/Ferry/Subway to midtown. Lets also not forget the fact that some poorer NJ residents may like the prospect of getting to NYC for $1.50 (or free if willing to walk). Adding the price of the ferry / bus would be peanuts compared to the NJT fare from the Amboys to NYC (and often one would still need to pay the $1.50 to get to the ultimate destination).
2 - Train from St George to Cranford. Don't care what it is (NJT, MTA SIR, B & O, Central Railroad of NJ), connect to NJT Raritan line, short ride to Newark and SI residents can go by rail to much of the US without touching Manhattan. Or, get the West Trenton line going and SI-ers have a way to get to Philly and beyond without reversing direction.
Or, get the West Trenton line going and SI-ers have a way to get to Philly and beyond without reversing direction
That's a good point. With all the congestion at Newark when the NJT starts service on the Trenton Line they could run some Raritan Valley and Trenton trains via SIR onto SI and them terminate them at the St. George terminal where the people could ferry themselves to downtown. Given the line is upgraded properly it could prove very compeditive to the Newark/PATH alternative.
>> Some sort of either ferry <<
when I was there in 66 or 67 there was a rotting ferry dock.
It's still there, in a further state of rot. The ferry didn't shut down until the mid 50's.
-Hank
I use to live in WEST BRIGHTON in S.I. some time ago, and the bridge walkway was closed. when did it reopen? By the way,[for any S.I. FOLKS out there] is it me or did something strange happen to Port Richmond Av? All the stores are gone!!! what happen?
'South Bronx Syndrome' happened.
The Bayonne Bridge walkway is closed until further notice during redecking. It's also closed in Winter.
-Hank
The arera where my grandma lives in East Village and alot of people are Latino and Proto Rican and it's sort of a bad place to live. Just as of 1998. The East Village have been turn around and the East Village have got one hell of 'Harlem Syndrone' All right.
You can't read those car numbers without binoculars or a decent camera lens. It's difficult to count the cars, for that matter.
-Hank
Only question is would the people in Bayonne start raising a stink with NJT if all those Staten Island people were jammed onto their HBLR by the time it crossed Kill Van Kull. And would the MTA pay for its share of HBLR upkeep and alos get a say in HBLR operations?
The proposal makes sense, but like Kalikow's suggesstion last week that the MTA take over operations of PATH and the NJ Transit rail lines, the turf wars and legal obligations to be worked out would be extensive.
SI's population is probably going to have to bump up by at least another 250,000 or so before anyone in the other boroughs starts taking a rail connection seriously. I still think a dual-level tunnel combining the cross harbor freight tunnel on one level with a subway connection to the Fourth Ave. line on another level would be the best answer for all of New York.
If the deep water freighter port in Brooklyn became a reality, there would be enough special interest money trying to make big profits from shipping freight out of Brooklyn to the rest of the U.S. to justify construction of the tunnel. And since the tunnel would be wholly in New York waters, the interstate rivalry that plagues New York and New Jersey could be kept to a minimum.
If the old B&O bridge over the Arthur Kill was utilized, and a freight line run beneath Richmond Terrace and Bay Street, the subway -- or to bond investors, the city and state, the money-losing -- tunnel across the Narrows could be added on to the (money-making) freight line project, which could also allow for direct frieght service between New Jersey, Long Island and New England and even through Amtrak service from D.C. to Boston that would bypass Penn Station and have stops in Staten Island, south Brooklyn, E. New York and/or Central Queens.
The SI portion of the HBLR could be run by NYCT (pay for operation of stations, ROW, and own some LRVs). The trains could run make all stops in SI, the first stop in NJ then express to LSP followed by EXP, NEW, HOB. Half hourly service. This keeps the SI riders on separate trains from the NJ riders, Kinda like the Metro North Expresses on the Port Jervis line in the rush.
Staten Island's population will probably max out at about 500,000 or so. The south shore is almost built out, and the north shore is already starting to lose people in spots.
As for a rail connection from the SIRT to the Bayonne Bridge, the bridge is high over the north shore line at the point where the two cross. It would have to curve all over to get up there.
I'd like to see the SIRT and the north shore line converted to "bus rapid transit" as described in the January issue of Metro Magazine -- exclusive ROW, nice "stations", grade separation.
Two lanes bus ROWs could also be added elsewhere to complete a nice big network: on the outside of the Staten Island Expressway from the Verranzano to Port Ivory; down from the North Shore Line along South Avenue to the Teleport, then down the West Shore Expresseay; along Richmond Avenue and through the once proposed connection to the Willowbrook and over the Bayonne Bridge; and perhaps up over the Greenbelt in the once proposed bet of the Willowbrook.
This idea assumes that fuel cell articulated buses will be available and affordable a few years hence. But you'd end up with a "rapid transit" system covering the island for a fraction of the cost of a subway, once that could accomodate street running buses and extend over the Verranzano on dedicated lanes.
Are you suggesting that the SIRT rail line be dismantled? That would be regrettable (and fortunately, not likely to occur). Bad idea.
"Bus Rapid Transit" has advantages over the current express bus system, but suffers from technical and political problems.
Aside from inherent inefficiencies between rubber and rail, you have a vehicle which becomes highway dependent when it leaves Staten Island--no better than current express buses, worse if they increase overall road traffic.
People living along the SIRT row will now have more noise from more frequent vehicles and diesel pollution where they now have electric.
You must also deal with the reality (as is a talking point in the current Long Island planning) of how you deal politically with keeping the busways exclusive to buses. There is no limited highway on SI that goes where SIRT goes. Highway advocates will want the bus lanes open to taxis, then to HOVs. When traffic builds because of this, they will want to add lanes. History, including recent history, shows they will get this.
NY DOT's answer in the LI situation is "just say no"--i.e., buses will maintain primacy. This is not politically realistic. "Bus Rapid Transit" is a foot in the door for highway construction.
Two lanes bus ROWs could also be added elsewhere to complete a nice big network:
on the outside of the Staten Island Expressway from the Verranzano to Port Ivory;
down from the North Shore Line along South Avenue to the Teleport, then down the West Shore Expresseay;
along Richmond Avenue and through the once proposed connection to the Willowbrook and over the Bayonne Bridge;
and perhaps up over the Greenbelt in the once proposed bet of the Willowbrook.
Larry, out of these options, the ONLY one that would possibly stand a chance would be #2. All the others have been proposed at many different transportation public meetings and the reaction that is usually given is sort of like " Yeah, right and next you'll just kill us all, take our property and make a 20 lane SIE and a dump 20x the size of Fresh Kills."
These numbskulls won't let DOT connect all the separate parts of the SI Expressway service road or straighten out curvy roads in the Greenbelt; they certainly won't let you build new 'ways through those areas.
If the deep water freighter port in Brooklyn became a reality, there would be enough special interest money trying to make big
profits from shipping freight out of Brooklyn to the rest of the U.S. to justify construction of the tunnel. And since the tunnel would be wholly in New York waters, the interstate rivalry that plagues New York and New Jersey could be kept to a minimum.
I consider it ridiculous that New York and New Jersey have such a rivalry right now. Both states act like a couple of five-year-olds fighting over toys in a sandbox.
It's more important to be right than to get along.
>>>It's more important to be right than to get along. <<<
You have an awful lot to learn, my freind.
Peace,
ANDEE
While I appreciate the strengths of our federal system viz. states' independence, they are a bit too inflexible for my tastes. New Jersey should be split in half and allocated to Pensylvania and New York, based on commutation and economic patterns. This is the system in Britain, France, and Japan, as opposed to the Canadian, German, and American system of "inviolable" states' sovereignty.
Thanks! South Jersey gets more than sufficiently screwed by North Jersey; we don't need to be given to Harrisburg.
There are reasons we have a federal system in the U.S. One of them is powerful cities who would like to chop up their neighbors and dictate their lives.
The cities are more populous and more important.
New York, Long Island and the lower Hudson Valley should join Fairfield County, CT and North Jersey to create the state of Newer York. Upstate would become the state of Yorksylvania. South Jersey would join Southeast PA to become Penn Jersey. The rest of Pennsylvania would join Yorksylvania.
Consider the advantages of divided regional government.
One is that when a unified government (like the Port of New York Authority) does things well, it benefits everyone in the region. But when a unified government (like the Port of New York Authority) does things badly, it louses up the entire region. Or, as bad or worse, favors one part of the region over another.
Years ago, the MTA was more progressive than New Jersey in preserving and improving tansit while rail lines in New Jersey were dropping like flies. Right at this moment, NJT is more progressive in transit than the MTA, getting new light rail lines, expanding the City Subway and extending the reach of commuter lines.
Governmental diversity, like market competition, increases the pool of ideas and management alternatives.
Governmental diversity can be achieved via counties, cities, towns and villages. There is no need to have unaccountable bi-state agencies or the Federal Government to provide for the region.
Counties, cities, towns and villages have no power to do anything and their area of infulence makes anything they do imprement virtually useless. Many smaller states allow people to live in a large zone that best suits them. For example people in NJ trade off lower gas prices for higher insurance rates. While PA, NY, DEL and CT might be nice places to visit I would never ever want to live there, but for other people those states better suit their needs. BTW unaccountable bi-state agencies might have the potential to screw people over, but they can also usually get things done w/o all the red tape and graft.
The problems of counties and municipalities not being able to do anything can be solved by amending the state constitution. These new states would get new constitutions anyway.
...American system of "inviolable" states' sovereignty.
Would that were the case. If indeed the Constitution had been respected by those in the North, the sovereignty of the Southern states would have been respected, there would have been no War of Northern Aggression, and we Southerners would be independent of Yankee imperialism today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's ridiculous. The civil war was based entirely on economic concerns. Countries have revolutions for nationalistic ones.
If the south had maintained its independence, it would be as ridiculous as North and South Korea or East and West Germany.
The civil war was based entirely on economic concerns.
Almost entirely, yes. But if the rights of the states to self-determination had been respected, the economic oppression of the South would not have occurred. As you know, protective tariffs designed to protect Northern industry at the expense of the South were the largest single factor in the Southern move for independence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> The civil war was based entirely on economic concerns <<<
Pork, perhaps you should have paid a little more attention in the useless school you attended. The cause of the War Between the States (aka American Civil War, although civil war occurred only in Virginia) was the attempted secession of the Southern States from the Union. Had they been allowed to secede there would have been no war. The cause of the attempted secession was based on economic concerns.
>>> If the south had maintained its independence, it would be as ridiculous as North and South Korea or East and West Germany <<<
The divisions you cite were imposed by foreign powers. Opposite examples include the creation of Pakistan from India, the division of the U.S.S.R. into separate republics, or the division of the U.A.R. into Egypt and Syria.
Tom
Pork, perhaps you should have paid a little more attention in the useless school you attended. The cause of the War Between the States (aka American Civil War, although civil war occurred only in Virginia) was the attempted secession of the Southern States from the Union. Had they been allowed to secede there would have been no war. The cause of the attempted secession was based on economic concerns.
That was a waste of bandwidth. Basically the civil war was caused by economic concerns. You yourself said that the secession was caused by economic reasons and that that caused the civil war. I'm not explaining the civil war in detail here, I posted that messages knowing that people know what the hell the civil war was, or they wouldn't care about the message.
And no, I shouldn't have paid attention in that useless school, I would just have been fed misinformation.
The divisions you cite were imposed by foreign powers. Opposite examples include the creation of Pakistan from India, the division of the U.S.S.R. into separate republics, or the division of the U.A.R. into Egypt and Syria.
Where are the Soviet troops that keep the Koreas apart?
And the United Arab Republic was not created nor separated by foreign influences. Syria consented joining the UAR, it also consented leaving it a few years later. There was no war accompanying either event.
>>> That was a waste of bandwidth. Basically the civil war was caused by economic concerns. <<<
Pork, you are ignoring your initial statement which was: "The civil war was based entirely on economic concerns". The word "entirely" is far different than "basically". As one who has pointed out much smaller discrepancies, you should appreciate that words have specific meanings. When you say that the civil war was basically caused by economic concerns, it is not saying much, because most of what man has done from the beginning of time can be traced to economic concerns. The specific cause of the war was political.
>>> the United Arab Republic was not created nor separated by foreign influences. Syria consented joining the UAR, it also consented leaving it a few years later. <<<
And you still do not see my point? The states which made up the United States of America consented to joining together, and those that attempted to secede believed they had the right to leave. It was the outcome of the war between the states that settled that question. The federal government at that time was not the overbearing tyrant to the states that it is now. It was much closer to what the European Union is now. If France decided tomorrow that it wanted to leave the EU it could (because the rest of Europe would not take up arms to prevent it), but will that be true seventy five years from now? Possibly not.
Tom
Pork, you are ignoring your initial statement which was: "The civil war was based entirely on economic concerns". The word "entirely" is far different than "basically". As one who has pointed out much smaller discrepancies, you should appreciate that words have specific meanings. When you say that the civil war was basically caused by economic concerns, it is not saying much, because most of what man has done from the beginning of time can be traced to economic concerns. The specific cause of the war was political.
I've picked at little details before, and I will admit to that, and it isn't always right. And what political concerns were these? The debate over slavery, tariffs and other matters, most of which were economic.
And you still do not see my point?
You said that my examples were divisions caused by foreign powers. I thought that your counterexamples were unifications caused by foreign powers, that then failed. I misunderstood you.
Because India and Pakistan WAS caused by a foreign power. The Hindi people were there first, but the Muslims were there long enough so that they also had a legitimate right to be there. However they never lived in distinct sections of land. India/Pakistan, while not illogical, left many people on the wrong side of line, and left the two powers to resent each other (for example: The Indus River Valley, the place of the start of India is in Pakistan).
The states which made up the United States of America consented to joining together, and those that attempted to secede believed they had the right to leave.
I never considered that they were separate before joining the United States. They were all colonies of Britain, and all fought for their independence together.
I never considered that [the American colonies] were separate before joining the United States. They were all colonies of Britain, and all fought for their independence together.
They were not separate nations (and Britain had, and has, colonies elsewhere) but they were administratively separate colonies. None of Britain's other colonies became part of the U.S.
They were not a single colony which decided to break up upon independence. The separateness of the states and the fact that the states are also part of the United States is acknowledged in the Constiution.
Before the Civil War, the concept that the separate states, having independently and at different times become states by virtue of ratifying the Consitution, could not choose to leave was, to say the least, unproven. The Civil War settled the issue at he expense of incredible bloodshed.
"Pork, perhaps you should have paid a little more attention in the useless school you attended. The cause of the War Between the States (aka American Civil War, although civil war occurred only in Virginia) was the attempted secession of the Southern States from the Union. Had they been allowed to secede there would have been no war. The cause of the attempted secession was based on economic concerns. "
Not just economic concerns - but also a basic conflict between those who favored a strong central govt, and those who favored a loose confederacy where the states' sovereignty was supreme.
"It was the outcome of the war between the states that settled that question. The federal government at that time was not the overbearing tyrant to the states that it is now. It was much closer to what the European Union is now."
Whoah, horsey! Tom, if you're going to lecture Pork about history, you need to be a little more honest about your biases. Without the federal govt. "tyranny" (an incredibly biased statement if I ever heard one) blacks might still be slaves, the Jim Crow laws would have been preserved (never mind the 1965 Civil Rights Act), and laws allowing the wholesale destruction of land in places like Louisiana would be the rule today (and Louisiana still has a problem with that). In fact, states have many rights preserved in the constitution specifically for them (now would be a good time for you to read this document - before you return to "teaching history.")
In fact, the United States of America did have a civil war which involved its member states. You may not like to call it that, but that's what it was. The "federalists" won, and we have a democracy which includes a relatively strong federal government.
Whoah, horsey! Tom, if you're going to lecture Pork about history, you need to be a little more honest about your biases.
He can keep his biases. While there is a good side to each item, the overbloated federal government does things that are completely unconstitutional (drug laws anyone?), and thanks to higher federal taxes, forces states to go begging for money that should have been in their posession in the first place. And then the government can blackmail the states for that money as in the National Speed Limit (thankfully repealed) and National Drinking Age (FUCK YOU MADD! BURN IN HELL!).
Right. And the corresponding significant drop in drunk-driving deaths with the rise in the legal drinking age was a statistical blip.
-Hank
So I guess we should raise the drinking age to 31 since most drunk driving deaths now occurs among people in their 20s. We should just ban alcohol altogether, since its impossible to drink without driving.
AND later research has shown that drunk driving incidents dropped among all age groups anyway.
The drinking age has only served to encourage the development of alcoholism problems among those oppressed by it. Studies have repeatedly shown that those for whom alcohol is not forbidden while they are teenagers are less likely to develop alcoholism problems.
And then there's the priniciple of the matter. Regardless of my views on age restrictions in general, it is completely wrong to impose restrictions on one group of adults and not on all others. It's equivalent to banning alcohol among women or blacks. The age 21 is based on NONSENSE except for a good game of BLACKJACK.
The raised drinking limit was a bad idea. When the drinking age was 18, teens drank. Now that it is 21, they still drink. What's the difference? Now they have to hide it, can't drink with a parent or other "responsible adults", therefore no one is there to tell when enough is enough. Thus, alcoholism problems.
It's equivalent to banning alcohol among women or blacks.
One of my Army buddies in Florida in the '60's was a Native American from Minnesota who used to delight in quietly announcing to our group in a bar that he was committing civil disobediance, since Florida law prohibited American Indians from drinking alcohol.
The problem with your post, Pork, is that you haven't got a clue what life would be like "in the good old days" before the income tax and before the "bloated" federal government. Of course, if you wanted some clues, you could visit the mining museum in Denver, Colorado, or the tenement museum in Manhattan.
I'm not saying there isn't fat to cut. But if you want to go back to "the good old days" you have to be prepared to accept all the aspects of that. And you're not even close to having enough experience, education, or "institutional memory" for lack of a better term, to understand what that really means.
I've observed people who advocate this sort of thing. The ones I've actually met have often come from these perspectives: 1) Wealthy and privileged (in the "good old days" they would have been OK) 2) Lower middle-class and often racially prejudiced because they have to find somebody to kick (like the guy at the bank I used to work with years ago - a complete idiot at his job, living in a one-bedroom apartment with John Wayne posters everywhere - constantly berating black and Hispanic employees and wondering why they don't go back to where they "belong" - but boy was he proud of his country and how he could kick ass on all the scum who kept trying to get in from Mexico 3) Academics who read a lot of books but have trouble connecting with the impact on real people, esp. those supporting elitist themes (as I recall, a certain existential philosopher was made a hero in Nazi Germany for this sort of thing).
These are the people I've actually met. They would have no objections to blacks being forced to ride at the back of the bus ("it's a free market, they can patronize a different bus company"). Can you understand why I might not like the philosophy much?
I'm not saying there isn't fat to cut. But if you want to go back to "the good old days" you have to be prepared to accept all the aspects of that. And you're not even close to having enough experience, education, or "institutional memory" for lack of a better term, to understand what that really means.
Just because increased federal control has occured at the same time as an improvement of the country's living standard, doesn't mean it caused it. There's no reason that state governments couldn't have done the same thing.
By your reasoning, I should believe that a one-world order would be the optimal government and that would lead to an increased quality-of-life the world around.
"Just because increased federal control has occured at the same time as an improvement of the country's living standard, doesn't
mean it caused it. There's no reason that state governments couldn't have done the same thing."
In the 1950's, the southern states' Jim Crow Laws held back economic progress at a time when the US' post-war economy was booming. To use strictly an objective, economist's approach, Economics 101 teaches that when you discriminate against a portion of your population due to race, your society cannot perform at the optimum "production possibilities" curve, that is, utilizing the talents and productivity offered by every member of society. Unfortunately, it took intervention by the President, the Congress and federal troops to right the ship, so to speak. So yes, the states could have done that - but they didn't.
"By your reasoning, I should believe that a one-world order would be the optimal government and that would lead to an
increased quality-of-life the world around."
A non-sequiter. I don't see a "one-world order" in our future, nor the need for one. On the other hand, uniting a large group of people isn't such a bad idea. Look at what the German states accomplished under Bismarck. Of course, Civil War aside, the United States' evolution was a bit more peaceful, and democratic.
In the 1950's, the southern states' Jim Crow Laws held back economic progress at a time when the US' post-war economy was booming.
You constantly mention Jim Crow laws as if I'm somehow in favor of turning a blind eye against them. Sure I might believe in a greater degree of states rights, but there are some things that the federal government should still do, otherwise it wouldn't have a reason to exist would it?
"You constantly mention Jim Crow laws as if I'm somehow in favor of turning a blind eye against them. Sure I might believe in a
greater degree of states rights, but there are some things that the federal government should still do, otherwise it wouldn't have a
reason to exist would it?"
And if you sincerely believe that, there are ways available to you to advocate for your cause. While I might not vote for you or your cause, I hope you find satisfaction in its pursuit.
>>> you need to be a little more honest about your biases. Without the federal govt. "tyranny" (an incredibly biased statement if I ever heard one) blacks might still be slaves, the Jim Crow laws would have been preserved (never mind the 1965 Civil Rights Act), and laws allowing the wholesale destruction of land in places like Louisiana would be the rule today <<<
Where is there bias in my statement? We have come from the time of Herbert Hoover who did not believe the Federal Government should do anything to interfere with the natural business cycle, to the congress in the fifties which was still so aware of "states rights" that they allowed Jim Crow laws in the south to exist and only desegregated "interstate facilities," to the modern congress which sets minimum welfare standards for states, can dictate rules for the sale of firearms, is able to dictate a uniform minimum drinking age (even though the 21st Amendment, repeal of prohibition, left the control of alcohol to the individual states), can set maximum speed laws for states on all roads, not just federal highways, can even go so far as prohibit individual farmers from growing potatoes, and determine how much water your toilet can use with each flush. The growing intrusion into what once was considered local issues came through sometimes strained interpretation of the Interstate Commerce clause of the Constitution. Whether it is right or wrong is a matter of individual opinion. The fact that the federal government has virtually usurped the sovereignty of the states cannot be denied. And of course, my comparison was the power of the federal government today compared to 1860 before the 14th Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states.
There has been a conservative resurgence in the belief in states rights after the Supreme Court ruled in Seminole Tribe of Florida v. Florida, 517 U.S. 44 (1996) that a State could not be sued in Federal Court (except by another State) without its acquiescence due to the sovereign immunity granted by the 11th Amendment to the Constitution. For the twenty-five years prior to that the congress treated the states as though the 11th Amendment had been repealed.
>>> In fact, states have many rights preserved in the constitution specifically for them (now would be a good time for you to read this document <<<
Actually you have it backward, the federal government is supposed to have only the rights delegated to it, (Article I) with the States and the people retaining all other rights. In the words of the 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people".
>>> the United States of America did have a civil war which involved its member states <<<
Webster defines civil was as "a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country." In 1860, people considered themselves as citizens of individual states rather than the United States. If in fact the southern states did secede from the union before hostilities began, then it was not a civil war, except in Virginia, where part of the state broke off into West Virginia. Of course the victors get to write the history, so it is known as the American Civil War, but it seems clear that the southern states did secede until the end of the war, and the U.S. Army treated Confederate soldiers as legitimate soldiers of a foreign army rather than as treasonous citizens of the United States of America.
Tom
Where is there bias in my statement? We have come from the time of Herbert Hoover who did not believe the Federal Government should do anything to interfere with the natural business cycle, to the congress in the fifties which was still so aware of "states rights" that they allowed Jim Crow laws in the south to exist and only desegregated "interstate facilities," to the modern congress which sets minimum welfare standards for states, can dictate rules for the sale of firearms, is able to dictate a uniform minimum drinking age "(even though the 21st Amendment, repeal of prohibition, left the control of alcohol to the individual states), can set maximum speed laws for states on all roads, not just federal highways, can even go so far as prohibit individual farmers from growing potatoes, and determine how much water your toilet can use with each flush. The growing intrusion into what once was considered local issues came through sometimes strained interpretation of the Interstate Commerce clause of the Constitution. Whether it is right or wrong is a matter of individual opinion. The fact that the federal government has virtually usurped the sovereignty of the states cannot be denied. And of course, my comparison was the power of the federal government today compared to 1860 before the 14th Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states."
Wrong. The federal government does not regulate any of these things directly. It merely says that if a State wants FEDERAL DOLLARS to do certain things it must follows rules promulgated by Congress, whose members we elect. If a State chooses to use only its own resources to carry out a task, it can do as it pleases. Where is the tyranny?
"Actually you have it backward, the federal government is supposed to have only the rights delegated to it, (Article I) with the States and the people retaining all other rights. In the words of the 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". "
All of which proves my point.
Wrong. The federal government does not regulate any of these things directly. It merely says that if a State wants FEDERAL DOLLARS to do certain things it must follows rules promulgated by Congress, whose members we elect. If a State chooses to use only its own resources to carry out a task, it can do as it pleases. Where is the tyranny?
It's blackmail, before there was an income tax, the federal government didn't have nearly enough power to collect so much money. A state cannot tell its people to stop paying federal taxes because they wont get the money back. And in some cases the rules are completely separate from the money that is withheld. What does the Blackjack drinking age have to do with highway money?
All of which proves my point.
How? The federal government does things that aren't constitutionally delegated to it. That VIOLATES the Tenth amendment.
State government is the fundamental unit of government in the United States. It delegates its power up to the federal level, and down to the municipal level.
When are you moving to Idaho?
-Hank
That's nice. Instead of coming up with a valid counter-argument, you show your WEAKNESS by calling another person's views extreme (in a rather wierd way).
BTW, When are you moving to Cuba?
Like I pointed out to you in a previous post, I can understand why you would post that. I'm hoping a little age, experience, wisdom and maturity will help you, in time, to re-examine your attitudes.
NO, IT WON'T.
Will you stop using age to bolster your arguments. it only makes them look weak and stupid.
This is a free country, and you are entitled to your opinion (and I to mine) about that.
There's a difference between opinions and closed-mindedness.
You mean like yours?? :o)
And folks wonder why no one posts anymore.
-Hank
Hank: This topic has been running for quite some time, and it occurred to me that I haven't a clue how the people of Staten Island feel about the remote possibility of the subway being extended to their borough. Are they for such a system or dead set against it. Maybe Italian Guy in SI or some other resident can put his two cents worth on the subject. I can see both pros and cons in this matter.
We haven't talked about that in days.
What? Another name change? You've had more makeovers than Elizabeth aylor has had husbands. Come on, pick a handle and stick with it.
Give him a break. Variety is the spice of life. I'm toying with the possibility of a new handle in the future myself.
Go for it Steve if you want. I will always be #4 Sea Beach Fred. To me they are one and the same.
Maybe they can erect a statue of you somewhere appropriate…like the entrance to the Montague tunnel.
…Starts running away…fast!
Like I pointed out to you in a previous post, I can understand why you would post that. I'm hoping a little age, experience, wisdom and maturity will help you, in time, to re-examine your attitudes.
I don't think that anybody examines their attitudes about some of these issues, it just becomes a moot point. When I turn 21 next year sure drinking laws will still bother me, but it won't matter to me anymore and I won't really care.
Same goes when I get all upset about schools cracking down on 1st ammendment rights, but since I don't to go to school anymore I can't really keep up interest.
The issues are still wrong, but because an older person isn't effected they don't tend to care or notice.
Yes, that's right.
There's also the "Freshman Friday" effect. People believe that the future generation should go through the same hazing they did. They can't have payback, so they instead pay it forward.
Just like those TA employees who feel bad that the new hires don't go through the same abuse (little bit of a strong word, maybe) they did when they came on the force.
Few people can take that abuse, turn the other cheek and decide it ends with them.
And the others attended Columbine, Santana....
-Hank
What others? Why are you mentioning this?
How do you think those events began? These were the people who couldn't turn the other cheek. Granted, they responded to the extreme.
-Hank
PIGS: The federal government does things that aren't constitutionally delegated to it. That VIOLATES the Tenth amendment.
State government is the fundamental unit of government in the United States. It delegates its power up to the federal level, and down to the municipal level.
RON: Like I pointed out to you in a previous post, I can understand why you would post that. I'm hoping a little age, experience, wisdom and maturity will help you, in time, to re-examine your attitudes.
Huh? Pigs is certainly correct in stating what the intention of our nations's Founding Fathers was regarding the respective roles of the State and Federal governments. Are you suggesting that THEY lacked "experience, wisdom and maturity"? I think they had far more of all three than anyone in government today.
I'd like to see the kind of federal blackmail of the states that was discussed banned by a Constitutional amendment, but unfortunately it would never be approved by the Congress, and the alternative method of proposing amendments (a Constitutional Convention) is just too risky.
"I'd like to see the kind of federal blackmail of the states that was discussed banned by a Constitutional amendment, but
unfortunately it would never be approved by the Congress, and the alternative method of proposing amendments (a
Constitutional Convention) is just too risky."
Enforcing minority rights under the constitution is not blackmail. The southern states promulgated and enforced the unconstitutional idea that blacks were not human (in fact, blacks were considered at one time to be .6 of a person). The federal government, beginning in 1948, began breaking that up - an appropriate and constitutional role. As John Bredin points out, the Constitution allows Congress to make laws, using flexible language which withstands the test of time. You guys like to quote the Tenth Amendment, as if it stood in isolation with the rest of the document. You also seem to like discussing this as if humans aren't involved here. Millions of lives are affected in real ways by the Constitution.
The tone, quality of scholarship and understanding of all aspects of this issue in your posts, unfortunately, are rather superficial.
I just joined this thread. And you have not addressed the question of just what you regard as "immature" about stating what is clearly an accurate description of the intended relationship between the states and the federal government. If the people wanted to change that relationship, it should have been done by Constitutional amendment, which it wasn't. Is insisting on such niceties what you regard as "immature"? The men who wrote the Constitution surely did not regard it so.
And what has "protecting minority rights" got to do with such things as forcing states to pass 55 mph speed limit laws? Although no longer in effect, for many years this was an egregious example of federal "blackmail", directing legislatures to pass specific laws, even if the people of the state didn't want them, on pain of losing the state's fair share of "federal" dollars (which would be taken in taxes from that state's people regardless).
The founding fathers weren't stupid, they knew the world would change and that people would want it to change. That's why the Fifth Article to the Constitution was written. That's also why the constitution has an elastic clause.
However it is abominable that laws are created, circumventing the constitution, through judicial activism and utter disregard for the very principles of our nation.
If the majority of people wanted to change the constitution, or even a minority, there are ways. But there is no way there can be a democracy in which the most fundamental blueprint of it is disregarded.
So you might not like the Tenth Amendment, or the various clauses of Article I, Section 8 and choose to ignore them.
What is to stop you from one day ignoring the First Amendment? We should never allow that ball to begin rolling.
"So you might not like the Tenth Amendment, or the various clauses of Article I, Section 8 and choose to ignore them."
Or read closely the Tenth Amendment, and ignore everything else, which is what you have done.
What exactly have I ignored?
"I just joined this thread. And you have not addressed the question of just what you regard as "immature" about stating what is
clearly an accurate description of the intended relationship between the states and the federal government. If the people
wanted to change that relationship, it should have been done by Constitutional amendment, which it wasn't."
The relationships (plural, not singular) between the states and the feds are governed by the Constitution, but a Constitutional Amendment is not required to change every aspect of those relationships, as the Founding Fathers clearly indicated when they wrote the document. That should be intuitive. "Immature" refers to the selective reading of the Constitution with little understanding of what one reads and its relationship to the whole document, and how our institutions have governed with it.
"And what has "protecting minority rights" got to do with such things as forcing states to pass 55 mph speed limit laws?"
Those are two separate issues, and they were handled in very different ways. Your lumping them together signals that you don't know your own history very well.
The federal govt. actively intervened to protect the Constitutional Rights of minorities, which some states had been clearly and openly violating. On the other hand, the feds told the states, "If you want to build highways with federal taxes, here are the rules to follow." States can build roads solely with state money,if they wish, and not follow the directive.
Since the United States has one of the lowest tax rates in the world (contrast it to Sweden, with top tax rates of 80%, or Germany, or the UK), there's plenty of room for states to use sales, property, or income taxes to raise their own funds. And they do.
Pigs, I was agreeing with you!
The one attempt to use the amendment process in the enterprise of expanding federal power was the passage of the 16th (income tax) amendment - but even that was resorted to only when the Supreme Court made it clear that income taxes were unconstitutional without such an amendment. And there is considerable doubt as to whether that amendment was passed legitimately. An organization called "We the People" has documented what is apparently proof that the ratification of this amendment was falsely certified by Philander (what a name!) Knox, who was (IIRC) the Secretary of State at the time.
Passed in the same year (1913) as the 16th Amendment was the Federal Reserve Act, which substituted "debt money" for the Constitutionally mandated gold- and silver-backed currency. As an "on topic" sidelight, the bankers who supported this act chartered a special train from Hoboken Terminal, with a number of key Congressmen invited along, who were wined and dined and otherwise pressured into agreeing to support the Act. This occurred on November 22, 1913. It may or may not be significant that President John F. Kennedy was assasinated on the 50th anniversary of this event.
I am amazed at the credence you give to far-out fringe groups who make it their life purpose to rewrite history.
Do you also believe that aliens from another planet will be visiting here soon? Or maybe the Flat Earth Society had the right idea.
The kind of ignorance I've been reading in these threads about the Constitution is truly frightening.
What is even more freightening than your realization that yours is neither the only nor the legitimate view on the Constitution is your attempt to categorize those who disagree with you as some extremists.
Some of the views expressed here could have been taken straight out of "patriot/militia" manifestos - you can't get more insane than that.
Having said that, of course people have a right to express those views - this is America, after all. And I told you how I reacted to them. I don't believe in using the Killfile.
Some of the views expressed here could have been taken straight out of "patriot/militia" manifestos - you can't get more insane than that.
Ever read any of them, Ron? I have, and while I disagree with much of what they say, I also agree with much of it. Either way, I would hardly classify them as insane... unreasonable, ill-considered, disturbing, and extreme, perhaps, but not insane.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually the Fed Res. Act was passed inter alia because a New York Bank originally opposed to the act was caught out having violated a 'Nationl Bank Act' which regulated the relation of "capitalization" to loan amounts. In this case the offending loan was made to a holding company fomed to unify the existing Elevated Railways in Chicago. In the process a minor employee was cheated of a fee, and when he went to a lawyer for relief, the attorney passed the information on the banker to the undersecretary of the Treasury. He in turn 'persuaded' (conviction could have resulted in jail time for the erstwhile chairman of the bank as had happened in a previous case in Illinois) the banker (Frank Vanderlip) to change sides, and the Act passed. Source--the attorney was my maternal grandfather,.
Dyre Dan,
You're starting to marginalize yourself by associating yourself so strongly with all these "patriot"/"tax protester" issues.
The key point to remember is:
- Even if the 16th amendment was passed illegitimately, the Supreme Court has affirmed that it is legitimate, and until you get justices in there who think differently, it's the law of the land.
Similarly with the paper currency/gold standard issue.
I thought that the federal reserve act eventually passed by Congress was substantially different than the one that was discussed on the charter train trip.
Pigs, I was agreeing with you!
And I wasn't disagreeing, I was just putting out my exact rationale.
An organization called "We the People" has documented what is apparently proof that the ratification of this amendment was falsely certified by Philander (what a name!) Knox, who was (IIRC) the Secretary of State at the time.
I think that's just another theory created because the Sixteenth happened to be the most hated amendment that wasn't repealed.
Even though I don't agree with the power that the Feds now have to blackmail the states to pass laws they don't want to pass, a progressive income tax is the fairest way to get tax revenue.
Correction: although the Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913, it was in 1910 that the train I was thinking of was chartered. It's destination was an exclusive retreat known as Jeckyl Island, Georgia.
>>> Pigs is certainly correct in stating what the intention of our nations's Founding Fathers was regarding the respective roles of the State and Federal governments. Are you suggesting that THEY lacked "experience, wisdom and maturity"? <<<
The founding fathers certainly did have experience, wisdom and maturity, and their experience had been being ruled from far away at a time when it took months to communicate between England and America. They believed that a government so far away was not responsive to their needs. When the United States was formed, they were concerned with turning over power to a government which was several day's travel in some cases from where they were. They were also afraid that a central government might favor some states over others. The secession of the Southern states was due to the perception that the Northern states with a different economic system were controlling the federal government to their own benefit at the expense of the Southern states.
Over the past 225 years there has been a continuing tendency to give the central government more power. This is not because later politicians lacked the wisdom or maturity of the founding fathers, but rather they had a different experience. As communications improved, Washington, D.C. was not so far away from the various state capitols in terms of time, and now that we have instant communications, something going on in Washington, D.C. will be known in Seattle, Washington immediately, and there is immediate feedback, so fear of a strong central government has waned. In addition, again through improved mass communications, the country has become much more homogeneous and the politicians have become less parochial. Americans in general no longer fear a strong central government, and now look to the federal government to solve problems which were once solved much closer to home. Any of the founding fathers who came upon the modern country (and the rest of the world) might well decide that a strong federal government was better than the original one they formed.
Tom
I don't completely believe that a government that's more federal than it was in 1789 is neccessarily bad, however constitutional amendments are the way to achieve change, not disregarding the constitution. Not everything needs an amendment.
Really my beef is with laws I hate. I hate drug laws, for example. If we needed an amendment to ban alcohol, why is it possible to ban another controlled substance without one?
Whereas even though I feel Roe v. Wade reeks of judicial activism, I like the ruling. It would have still worked if it was up to states to decide this.
"Whereas even though I feel Roe v. Wade reeks of judicial activism, I like the ruling."
Judicial activism is present in both "conservative" and "liberal" camps. Whether or not you see an opinion as "
activist" just depends on your political orientation. The opposite decision in Roe vs. Wade could have been seen as judicial activism, too - twisting the Constitrution to allow Big Brother to decide what a woman can or can't do with her body. gain, what is the observer's political orientation?
By the way, I strongly favored the "Roe vs. Wade" decision.
>>> Whether or not you see an opinion as "activist" just depends on your political orientation. The opposite decision in Roe vs. Wade could have been seen as judicial activism, too <<<
Judicial activism does not depend on political orientation. Whether or not one approves of it does.
If Roe v. Wade had been decided the other way, the court would have been upholding the traditional police power of the states to determine what medical procedures are allowed. This was after all, a challenge to the criminal law of Texas claiming it was unconstitutional because it violated a constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy.
What the court did was find was "The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy." If it had stopped there, and gone no further, it would have been a strict constructionist view, and the decision would have gone the other way. Upholding the status quo could not have been considered "activist."
The majority opinion want on to say : "This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy."
And then went on to say: "We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation."
If they had stopped there and indicated that Texas law must consider the right to privacy and therefore abortion could not be completely outlawed, it still would not be activist, but they then went on to set up the three trimester test of when abortions may be legally be performed. THAT is what conservatives say is the activist nature of the court, taking over the responsibility of the legislature to make the laws.
Tom
"Judicial activism does not depend on political orientation. Whether or not one approves of it does."
Wrong, superficial, and even silly (as "strict construction" arguments often are) - and you proved that with your post!
"The majority opinion want on to say : "This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of
personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth
Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to
terminate her pregnancy."
The Constitution does not mention the noun "privacy" - but no one would argue that the Constitution does not affect issues of personal privacy. Therefore, legislatures should consider the Constitution when passing laws, and the Supreme Court must consider the Constitution in its entirety when interpreting it - which is what happened here. You may not agree with the outcome, but that was not because it was "activist."
>>> You may not agree with the outcome, but that was not because it was "activist." <<<
Ron;
Have you ever been diagnosed with dyslexia? Once again you suggest that I do not agree with something when I made no mention in my post whether or not I agreed with the outcome of Roe v. Wade.
>>>"Judicial activism does not depend on political orientation. Whether or not one approves of it does."
Wrong, superficial, and even silly (as "strict construction" arguments often are) - and you proved that with your post! <<<
How does my statement become a "strict construction" argument?
The thrust of my post was disagreeing with your previous post which stated that either way the court ruled in Roe v. Wade it would be considered "activist" by those who did not favor the position it took.
Please explain how the court could be considered activist if it upheld the state law.
"Judicial activism" implies going beyond deciding cases according to established law, and making new law if the situation requires it. Conservatives (against judicial activism) believe that courts should only decide cases and leave lawmaking to the legislative branch of government. Liberals (who approve of judicial activism) look to the courts to not only decide cases, but also to fashion remedies to redress injustice, even if those remedies tend to usurp the legislature's power.
I challenge you to name one case in which a court made a "conservative" decision and was accused of judicial activism.
Tom
Tom,
I thought I had explained clearly that the Supreme Court was asked, essentially, to interprewt the Constitution in light of privacy issues affected by the Texas law. Despite the fact that "privacy" does not appear in the Constitution, it is affected by laws and Constitutional interpretation will affect it as well.
The Texas state law itself could be considered "activist" in that it violated the basic rights of a woman to control her own body and her own self-expression. Also, please note that since no where does the Constitution define a protected "being" as beginning at conception, the idea that abortion can be restricted can be interpreted as constructionist by introducing the definition of a life with Constitutional rights beginning at conception. In fact, that is the core of the anti-abortion position. But there is no Constitutional basis for it. Thus my belief that the conservative=non-activist argument is nonsense.
>>> The federal government does not regulate any of these things directly. It merely says that if a State wants FEDERAL DOLLARS to do certain things it must follows rules promulgated by Congress, whose members we elect. If a State chooses to use only its own resources to carry out a task, it can do as it pleases <<<
Not regulating something "directly" is not the same as not regulating something at all. The power of the purse is strong coercion. It is a far cry from the original situation when the federal government was financed from custom house duties, and had no money to dangle federal dollars before state legislators. And of course, without the heavy federal tax burden, states could raise more money from their citizens and could afford to do things without federal tax dollars.
>>> "Actually you have it backward, the federal government is supposed to have only the rights delegated to it, (Article I) with the States and the people retaining all other rights. In the words of the 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". "
All of which proves my point. <<<
This does not prove anything if congress continues to decide, without opposition from the courts, that in fact more and more powers were delegated to the federal government by the constitution. This is what the ultra right wing strict constructionists complain about.
Tom
"Not regulating something "directly" is not the same as not regulating something at all. The power of the purse is strong coercion."
To the contrary, it's not coercion at all if a State chooses not to participate.
"It is a far cry from the original situation when the federal government was financed from custom house duties, and had no
money to dangle federal dollars before state legislators. And of course, without the heavy federal tax burden, states could raise
more money from their citizens and could afford to do things without federal tax dollars."
You're talking about a time when government did very little for anybody, a person could be owned like a piece of meat because of dark skin color or a foreign tongue, de facto citizenship was limited to a few elites and a life expectancy of 70 was something only dreamed about. You may want to go back to those days, but I sure don't.
"This does not prove anything if congress continues to decide, without opposition from the courts, that in fact more and more
powers were delegated to the federal government by the constitution."
We elect them. Don't like what they do? Run for office and try to do better. And as for the ultra-right wingers, if I recall correctly, some of them are in jail for things like blowing up people because they don't follow the Bible, extortion, embezzlement, tax evasion and so on. By the way, there's not much difference between ultra-right wing and ultra-left wing. Tyranny flows from both; they're inches apart in philosophy.
"Not regulating something "directly" is not the same as not regulating something at all. The power of the purse is strong coercion."
To the contrary, it's not coercion at all if a State chooses not to participate.
This reminds me of a while ago when my brothers and sisters and some cousins of mine lived in a huge old house my parents owned. We were all adults and we paid mom and dad rent which included the cost of our room, the upkeep on the house, all our food and a nice profit for my parents to live very well. My parents didn't have to do any work except manage the household. We all liked this arrangement.
Well, one day, my dad came to me and said "your mother and I and a majority of your siblings and cousins have decided we don't like your girlfriend. What's more, we've decided that noone is allowed to drink alcohol in their own rooms after dinnertime."
"But, dad, I'm an adult. You can't tell me who to date or whether I can engage in a legal activity in my room. The agreement we all signed when we started this arrangement even says so!"
"You're right, son. But if you don't dump the girl and toss out the booze, we're no going to feed you."
"But I'll starve."
"You can buy the food from us you've alrady paid for, or you can hit Micky D's every night. It's your free and open choice."
"Then I guess you're telling me it's time for me to move out and get my own apartment?"
"no way, son. You remember your brother Johnny tried that. We had to shoot him and lock him in his room for about a decade."
>>> We elect them. Don't like what they do? Run for office and try to do better. <<<
Ron;
It is difficult to debate a point with you. You use the politician's trick of changing the issue, or ascribing something that was not there in the first place. If you go back up the thread you will see that I had pointed out to Pork that the federal government in 1860 was more like the present European Union than the extremely centralist government we have today.
You responded by saying I was showing bias, implying that somehow I wanted to return to the mid 19th century model of government. I responded with examples of how the federal government has extended its control over the states.
Once again, your response was along the lines that this arrangement is better than the previous one, and suggested I read the constitution which you incorrectly interpreted with regards to the rights granted to the states.
I provided the correct text of the constitution with regard to rights retained by the states, and pointed out that regardless of the wording the central government has increased its power through indirect means.
Finally you come to the above "Don't like what they do? Run for office and try to do better." which is the equivalent of "If you don't like it here go back to ...(fill in the blank)," when someone suggests that the United States is not 100% perfect. Since I never expressed any indication that I personally do not like the present form of government, the comment is inappropriate.
I will still stand by my original premise. The federal government has much more power over the individual states now than it did in 1860. That is an objective fact and requires no bias.
Tom
"It is difficult to debate a point with you. You use the politician's trick of changing the issue, or ascribing something that was not
there in the first place. If you go back up the thread you will see that I had pointed out to Pork that the federal government in
1860 was more like the present European Union than the extremely centralist government we have today."
And I pointed out that this is not true. The United States is a far richer and more powerful country today than it was in 1860; moreover, the States' Rights minority had been defeated in the Civil War. It is that minority which your views reflect, not the actual workings of our government.
"I provided the correct text of the constitution with regard to rights retained by the states, and pointed out that regardless of the
wording the central government has increased its power through indirect means."
Its power has increased, but by entirely constitutional means. The checks and balances (Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, Judicial Branch) are still there and work well.
"Finally you come to the above "Don't like what they do? Run for office and try to do better." which is the equivalent of "If you
don't like it here go back to ...(fill in the blank)," when someone suggests that the United States is not 100% perfect."
That was not a sarcastic comment. Carolyn McCarthy lost her husband to a gunman on the LIRR and subsequently decided to run for Congress so she could fight for gun control. Well, she's in Congress now.
"I will still stand by my original premise. The federal government has much more power over the individual states now than it did
in 1860. That is an objective fact and requires no bias."
And I still point out to you that our government has gotten there with our consent, through peaceful, democratic and constitutional means, reflecting the will of the people it serves. That is an objective fact, and requires no bias.
...our government has gotten there with our consent, through peaceful, democratic and constitutional means, reflecting the will of the people it serves.
Horsefeathers. The federal government has gotten there by virtue of its armed conquest of a foreign power, the lawful and legitimate governments of the several states administratively united as the Confederate States of America. And it continues to unlawfully and unconstitutionally usurp powers which are not specifically alloted to it by the U.S. Constitution.
If the federal government operated according to the Constitution, most of Washington, D.C. would still be pasture land.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Horsefeathers. The federal government has gotten there by virtue of its armed conquest of a foreign power, the lawful and
legitimate governments of the several states administratively united as the Confederate States of America. And it continues to
unlawfully and unconstitutionally usurp powers which are not specifically alloted to it by the U.S. Constitution."
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm afraid you won't have a lot of support from either constitutional scholars or most of your fellow citizens.
While you're at it, you might want to check in the mirror to make sure you've gotton all the horsefeathers off your own back. :0)
There is no way a successful government can be maintained without adhering to its most fundamental laws. The constitution is not open to creative interpretation. I wouldn't mind it if something was changed by amending the constitution. Then it would be legitimate.
"The constitution is not open to creative interpretation."
I respectfully disagree. Yes, the language of the Constitution should not be read to mean something contrary to what its plain language states. But a frozen document with no changes in interpretation is NOT what the drafters of the Constitution intended. They purposely used flexible language because they wanted a document that could govern a country long after they were all dead. A law with no flexibility, no room to apply common sense, can be much worse than no law at all. Just ask women going to vote, or blacks sitting on a jury.
People who want an impotent central government point to the list of powers in Article I, Section 8 and condemn things such as the FBI, the Air Force, and national parks because they aren't directly and explicitly mentioned. But we cannot ignore the last clause of that section, authorizing the federal government to adopt "all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." The Founding Fathers didn't want tyranny, by dictator or by the majority, but they also clearly didn't want an impotent government like the hybrid, slapdash, abortion known as the Articles of Confederation either.
Very well said, Esq.
Bravo! A clearly written, concise explanation of how our government has withstood the test of time.
It is thanks to the constitution, by the way, that even ultra-right wingers who dream about the New World Order, the Black Helicopters, the illegality of the income tax and the federal government itself and how blacks should be sent back to Africa have the opportunity to speak freely. In many other countries they might be locked up in mental institutions as a threat to the State (I'm not convinced they're not insane, actually).
I respectfully disagree. Yes, the language of the Constitution should not be read to mean something contrary to what its plain language states. But a frozen document with no changes in interpretation is NOT what the drafters of the Constitution intended. They purposely used flexible language because they wanted a document that could govern a country long after they were all dead. A law with no flexibility, no room to apply common sense, can be much worse than no law at all. Just ask women going to vote, or blacks sitting on a jury.
That's not what I meant by "creative" interpretation. I didn't make myself very clear and that a problem, but yes, if the constitution was very rigid, it would have been dead by 1860.
People who want an impotent central government point to the list of powers in Article I, Section 8 and condemn things such as the FBI, the Air Force, and national parks because they aren't directly and explicitly mentioned.
Well, an Air Force makes sense because an Army and a Navy is authorized. The AF is just an air Army/Navy.
And the FBI is there to help enforce the laws.
And national parks are just a good idea.
>>> Well, an Air Force makes sense because an Army and a Navy is authorized. The AF is just an air Army/Navy.
And the FBI is there to help enforce the laws.
And national parks are just a good idea. <<<
Congratulations pig, you have distanced yourself from the extreme right wing strict constructionists. The constitution did not authorize a standing Army of the United States, it gave Congress the right to raise armies, but indicated that these armies would come from state militias whose officers would be appointed by the individual states. It did authorize a Navy, and the Marine Corp as part of the Navy is the oldest federal military force to fight on land. Did you know that when the FBI was formed the agents were unarmed and had no arrest powers? At that time the states were worried about a national police force. And BTW, what did you mean by creative interpretation?
Tom
The constitution did not authorize a standing Army of the United States, it gave Congress the right to raise armies, but indicated that these armies would come from state militias whose officers would be appointed by the individual states.
That may have worked in 1787, but it wouldn't work anymore. But there's no reason a constitutional amendment couldn't have been passed. There are very few people who think we should use the 1787 model for armed forces.
And BTW, what did you mean by creative interpretation?
When a judge takes an amendment and doesn't just extend it to modern times, but figures out a way to use it for anything. I can't think of any examples now.
"Congratulations pig, you have distanced yourself from the extreme right wing strict constructionists. The constitution did not
authorize a standing Army of the United States, it gave Congress the right to raise armies, but indicated that these armies would
come from state militias whose officers would be appointed by the individual states. It did authorize a Navy, and the Marine
Corp as part of the Navy is the oldest federal military force to fight on land. Did you know that when the FBI was formed the
agents were unarmed and had no arrest powers? At that time the states were worried about a national police force. And BTW,
what did you mean by creative interpretation?"
I think perhaps you should read John Bredin Esq.'s post on this topic - and then come back and repost.
>>> the federal government in 1860 was more like the present European Union than the extremely centralist government we have today
And I pointed out that this is not true. <<<
If you honestly believe the federal government of 1860 was as powerful vis a vis the States as it is today, I will not waste my time any further to try to disabuse you of that opinion.
>>> I provided the correct text of the constitution with regard to rights retained by the states, and pointed out that regardless of the wording the central government has increased its power through indirect means.
Its power has increased, but by entirely constitutional means. <<<
I never suggested in any way that unconstitutional means were used, so what is your point?
>>> Finally you come to the above "Don't like what they do? Run for office and try to do better.
That was not a sarcastic comment <<<
It certainly seemed like one when I had expressed no indication that I disliked anything that had been done.
>>> I will still stand by my original premise. The federal government has much more power over the individual states now than it did in 1860. That is an objective fact and requires no bias.
And I still point out to you that our government has gotten there with our consent, through peaceful, democratic and constitutional means, reflecting the will of the people it serves. <<<
This is a non sequitur since it does not contradict my point about the federal government having more power, and I in no way suggested that it had not gotten to its present state through peaceful democratic and constitutional means.
Tom
I'm glad you cleared that up for me.
the division of the U.A.R. into Egypt and Syria.
I think you need to subtract that example. Egypt and Syria formed the U.A.R. in one of many historical attempts to display arab unity. They didn't really have that much in common, especially the desire for common government, and it fell apart.
Speaking of Egypt, has anyone out there ever ridden the Cairo subway? I'd be curious to hear about it, being a fan of both subways and archaeology. Was anything important uncovered during construction?
Mark
I've been to Cairo, but I didn't see the subways. All I saw were the busses, which were packed the gills in ways that might even shock New Yorkers.
:-) Andrew
I've been on the subway in Cairo. but that was a long while, like about 10 years ago and when i was 12. From what i can remember the cars where blue, somewhat turquoise color. and the speed was up there in the high 30's mph. but i mostly rode on the trolley cars that run adjacent to the main roadways.
A better idea is to comvert the SIRR into a hi-speed line with 65mph running and skip stops.
I've read all the responses so far and here's my comments.
I think the HBLR should be extended into SI. A Docklands-style deep tube tunnel would get rid of the "height" issues a bridge crossing would have in case you want to tie in to existing rail lines. However maybe the best idea is to create a new rail corridor in SI rather than try to use SIRT. This would spur new development along the new corridor.
What no one seems to be thinking of is.. where are the SI people going to go? The Hudson River crossings (PATH) are already maxed out. Can you imagine another 20-30,000 SI commuters (just making up a number) trying to squeeze into the WTC trains each morning? I think the HBLR would have to strike a deal with the NY Waterway to provide a combined ticket to encourage people to use the ferries over the PATH, at least until the PATH capacity issue is adequately addressed...
When the Lackawanna Ferries gave up (c.1968) an enormous additional load was placed on PATH which really strained capacity. These boats were still well used but were getting to point where they would no longer pass inspection and the E-L was not about to invest in new ones, especially when PATH was willing to take over.
The NY area has barely scratched the surface with ferries. It is possible to use much bigger and better boats than NY Waterways now uses. Vancouver (IIRC) has boats which have a rapid transit feel. They have multiple side doors that line up with doors on the loading dock. Unlike the current municipal jobbies to South Ferry, they come into their slips under automation. Since SI/HBLR riders would need to change for NY anyway, ferries are a viable solution for the short term.
As an aside, any SI solution will create a strain on current facilities on the "mainland" side. The BMT Southern Division doesn't really have excess capacity until both sides of the MB are open (still an unproven expectation). Even going to South Ferry beneath NY Harbor (I don't ever expect to see this--to much technology, too many $$$)--then where does it go? 1-9 local tracks? 2nd Avenue Subway?
I agree. The best, and most affordable solution, is a rapid transit line along the spine of SI, connecting to a high-speed ferry, connecting to a rapid transit line along the spine of Manhattan. Wait, that's already there... Just upgrade the ferries to hydrofoils and integrate the ferry terminals to the subways to accomodate the fastest possible transfers, and you've got a cheap, fast, integrated system, as they have in 3rd-world Istanbul.
There are problems with hydrofoils. There are right-of-way problems with higher-speed craft in Uper New York Harbor. Also you have to deal with the wake of hydrofoils.
I found out the hard way that hydrofoils also cannot operate in as diverse weather conditions as standard hull craft. My wife and I went by train some time ago from Frankfurt to London (pre-Chunnel). Our connection was supposed to be a hydrofoil at night but it was too stormy. The ferry company employees were unhelpful, even rude, when we asked what our alternatives were.
I was thinking hotel until the morning but my wife wasn't keen on that. She noticed some regular-looking (read: non-tourist) passengers seemed to be getting on something instead of hanging around. Luckily, she speaks German and we found out that the regular boats were running. We pitched and rolled the entire trip but we got there hours before the "faster" hydrofoil.
P.S.: Special thanks to British Railways who, when they saw a small bedraggled bunch of passenger showing up in Dover after midnight came up with an unscheduled electric train which got us into London at 2 a.m.
>>> I found out the hard way that hydrofoils also cannot operate in as diverse weather conditions as standard hull craft. <<<
That is true, but I am certain the weather conditions in New York Harbor never approach the severity of the English Channel. The real problem is that you do not get the speed advantage of a hydrofoil on so short a trip as from SI to Manhattan. The English Channel is at least 17 miles wide (and the Dover crossing much longer), more than three times the distance of the SI ferry. No matter how fast the water craft goes at top speed, it must slow down for docking at both ends of the trip, so the shorter the trip, the lower the average speed. The second consideration is, based on safety considerations, how fast would a multi ton ferry be allowed to operate in New York Harbor?
Tom
[On this part I believe NJT is more than willing but that the MTA would rather drink hemlock.]
Who would have to authorize it? The state legislatures? I suppose the Port Authority could take over the whole thing, but they don't seem to be very good at running PATH. OTOH giving SIRT to NJT sounds like a good choice. As compensation, PATH would be given to NY Transit, which can run it for less than the PA can. (Actually, I'd give everything to NJT if I had a choice, but let's be realistic . . . )
Interline arrangements are almost as old as railroading. It wouldn't require a super-authority, though the bureaucrats would love it.
I'm not sure how far up the approvals would have to go as a matter of necessity. We now have arrangements where Metro North runs on NJT tracks, NJT and others run on Amtrak tracks.
The real sticking point, IMO, is that NJT would like to do this but MTA/NYCT probably wouldn't. If they could come to an agreement, the rest could be easy if our elected officials could chill a bit.
"Interline arrangements are almost as old as railroading. It wouldn't require a super-authority, though the bureaucrats would love it."
NICTD, the Indiana entity that operates passenger service on the old South Shore interurban, uses Metra trackage to reach downtown Chicago. And Metra financially supports NICTD in proportion to the percentage of NICTD passengers (18% IIRC) arising from NICTD's only Illinois stop of its own, Hegewisch. Yet NICTD and Metra are completely separate entities. This arrangement apparently works just fine.
[Interline arrangements are almost as old as railroading. It wouldn't require a super-authority, though the bureaucrats would love it.
I'm not sure how far up the approvals would have to go as a matter of necessity. We now have arrangements where Metro North runs on NJT tracks, NJT and others run on Amtrak tracks.
The real sticking point, IMO, is that NJT would like to do this but MTA/NYCT probably wouldn't. If they could come to an agreement, the rest could be easy if our elected officials could chill a bit.]
The strange thing about this is that years after unification of the competing private lines, the various government agencies seem less willing to cooperate than the private companies did. My theory of the moment: a private company thinks in terms of "Hey, I can make money by overcharging those crooks at the Ohio and Hackensack to use my ROW for service from Bigbutt to Tightend," while the private agencies think along the lines of "the Governor just slashed my budget again whle demanding that I not cut service and the union won't let me run 3 car trains without four brakeman, plus that woman whose doghouse will be demolished has been outside my office with a bullhorn for two months now and Senator Hogg is demanding we spend $100,000 a day to run service for three people in his district, so if I agree to this I'll never get home in time to watch afternoon cartoons."
>>> The strange thing about this is that years after unification of the competing private lines, the various government agencies seem less willing to cooperate than the private companies did. My theory of the moment: a private company thinks in terms of "Hey, I can make money by overcharging those crooks at the Ohio and Hackensack to use my ROW for service from Bigbutt to Tightend," while the private agencies think along the lines of "the Governor just slashed my budget again whle demanding that I not cut service and the union won't let me run 3 car trains without four brakeman, plus that woman whose doghouse will be demolished has been outside my office with a bullhorn for two months now and Senator Hogg is demanding we spend $100,000 a day to run service for three people in his district, so if I agree to this I'll never get home in time to watch afternoon cartoons." <<<
That's nicely put, and more simply it comes down to the fact that it is easy to make interline agreements when they will lead to profits, but if the service is going to be subsidized, any agreement that might lead to the need for more subsidies will go begging.
Tom
[That's nicely put, and more simply it comes down to the fact that it is easy to make interline agreements when they will lead to profits, but if the service is going to be subsidized, any agreement that might lead to the need for more subsidies will go begging.]
There seems to be a power thing involved too, e.g., the Port Authority won't let MTA take over PATH and the MTA won't let NJT provide service to Staten Island.
>>> the Port Authority won't let MTA take over PATH and the MTA won't let NJT provide service to Staten Island. <<<
That is not difficult to understand. No politician in New Jersey will give up the operation of trains in New Jersey to exclusive New York control with no way to provide political input, and vice versa. Only a joint authority will be allowed to control an interstate operation.
Tom
I was woundering why there is no place to pay your fare on SIRR? The reason. So like that to let the EL CHEAPORADO'S ride the SIRR. HEHEHE!!
The MTA appears to be using contract numbers as ballast. Look:
R-26 R-27 R-28 R-30 R-32 R-33 R-34 R-36 R-40 R-42 R-44 R-46 Note here the gap. R-62 R-68 R-110 R-142 R-160.
Does it seem to you that the MTA is getting picky about its contract numbers? Why is this?
Dan
Simple ... each contract is its own R number and not all of them are for revenue stock. Some are for parts and components, work train gear, and some are put up and then cancelled before bids go out. They are done sequentially though.
>>each contract is its own R number and not all of them are for revenue stock. <<
Did the MTA really use up 50+ contracts between the early 80's and the late 80's? I know I missed the R-62 based work trains because I was too lazy to look up their contract numbers, but that accounts for only two more.
Yep ... just posted a link to JoeKorNer a message or three back from this one and they're all accounted for ... busy little beavers there on Jay Street during the huge long gaps between revenue car purchases.
Here ya go ... there's a list of the R contracts at the JoeKorner ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
What does the R stand for?
To be honest I don't know ... there's some who say it means "revenue" (though a lot of non-revenue stock is there), others say "rapid transit" or "railroad" ... then there's those of us who expect it to mean "RFP" or "request for proposals" ... dunno.
I guess it falls into that gap between what's up with 63 St and fantasy lines over the Manny B ... everyone's got an opinion but nobody knows for sure ... or DO someone? :)
I think it's "rolling stock" (even if it includes rolling-stock related components.)
I really do love pictures of the # 7 train REDBIRDS thank you for sending me your latest shot !!
Current lore has the "R" signifying RAPID. It does not necessarilly signify car equipment. For example - the R-25 was a wheel truing machine.
I think it has been pretty much established that the BOT used
the "R" series of contracts for Rolling Stock (and related
equipment and supplied), just as there were "S" series contracts
let for Signal equipment. I have not seen other contracts such
as stations, power and track, but maybe a lurker has the info?
Heh. And that pretty much proves my point ... some others believe it means "revenue" but of course, it's kinda hard to guess that geese would willingly ride the pump car. Then again, NYC's diverse, so ya never know. Another assumption is that "R" means "Rapid transit" though that possibility's been kinda dashed by all those pesky timers. And since we've seen thanks to "The JoeKorNer" some of those R contracts covered motors, wheel grinders and other bizarre things. "Rolling stock" comes in as logical of course but there doesn't seem to be an official answer to what "R" means and therefore, retirees apparently took the answer with them to the grave.
Hey! Any students looking for a research product? An OFFICIAL answer here would really hit the spot. Yo Pork! You're into this kinda stuff and inquiring mines knead to no ... if anyone can find it, you're probably the one ...
I have a complete list of R contracts from the 1940's through 1976.
I'll try to post it later today
The technical information of Prague metro: length track – 67,73 mil, connecting route between track –2 mil, service track- 3 mil, test track-3,23 mil, track in the depot-20 mil and on the whole approximately-96 mil. The deepest station is Namesti Miru – 174 Ft under level. The longest distance between stations is 1,4 mil (Smíchovské nádraží – Radlická-B line) and the shortest distance between stations is 0,26 mil (Hlavní nádraží - Muzeum-C line). The number of station – line A – 12, line B –24 and line C – 15.
The new W service will terminate at Pacific approximately 40 weekends of its first year of service for routine trackwork. Story in Tuesday's Daily News.
After reading the linked article in the News, I still have a question. Why is there track work to be done on the Broadway line, now that the Manh Bridge is being shifted.? Why wasn't every last piece of track work, station repair, signal work etc... done during the closure of the last TEN YEARS? Why did the local station rehab start just six months before the opening, and then get left only half done?
I guess that's three questions. But WHY?
That's the TA logic. Ask permission later, try to work first.
Once again, they're not telling us where exactly this track work will be. I got to peek at some pick sheets today, and they don't tell you whether the weekend Q will be going via bridge or tunnel (we have to wait for the complete timetables for that), but the running times from STL-Q (Stillwell Av. Brighton platform) to 57/7 are roughly the same daily and weekend (about 54 min.). So it looks like the Q will be on the Bridge weekends, so the work must be anywhere on Broadway from DeKalb north.
• If its in the tunnel, the N&R will probably be going over the bridge, and there'll be no room for another service to Manhattan.
• If the work is anywhere from Whitehall north, the N&R will still have to go over the bridge, but you'll be able to the M run in the tunnel (will save having shuttles to bypassed stations, or closing them.
• If the work is from Prince St. north, the N&R will cross over to the express, and the M could still run through the tunnel with the N&R.
So what we should push for is the to replace the on weekends!
REMEMBER: only the West End will be going directly to Coney Island with its new stadium. How could they possibly leave it acessible only by shuttles?
Randy Kennedy's weekly Tunnel Vision column today is about the extreme overcrowding at 72nd Street, which won't be ameliorated by the current reconstruction project. Column in Tuesday's Times.
The narrow staircase are, to be sure, a problem, but the columnist fails to consider the many people who neither exit nor enter at 72nd but simply transfer between express and local.
A bigger problem than the narrow exits is that, in the typical afternoon rush hour, five expresses come through the station -- two 2's, two 3's, and one 1/9 that's invariably far enough behind schedule that it's skipping local stops -- for each local. Manhattan's densest neighorhood is served by not only the 72nd Street station but also by the two stations to its north. Each of those five trains dumps much of its passenger load onto the narrow platform. More exits don't help transferring passengers -- if anything, they reduce platform space.
As I've posted again and again, the 1/9 local stops currently see half their scheduled service (the other half bypasses the local stations due to overcrowding) while they need twice their scheduled service. I suspect a (de facto) fourfold service improvement would work wonders on platform crowding. Incidentally, bypassing the local stops doesn't actually save any time -- it takes more time for passengers who want a real local to get off, and for other passengers to get on and right back off again, and for other passengers to hold the doors while they ask anyone who cares to listen if the train is making local stops (let's not get into what happens when a 2/3 pulls in across the platform while the "express" 1/9 is waiting to leave!), than to simply make the two stops.
The budget plan includes $151 million for HBLR expansion and $20 million for the Newark-Elizabeth rail link. Story in Tuesday's Star-Ledger.
To complete the Smithsonian's collection on items related to the NYC Subway -- such as a forthcoming Redbird -- rumor has it that they are interested in acquiring our beloved SubTalker heypaul and his R-9 T/O cab.
They would like to have him bronzed and placed inside the cab for a permanent exhibit...more news to come...
BMTman
Here we go.
Peace,
ANDEE
A consortium of minor Greek gods have had their attorneys file papers in The District of Columbia Supreme court to block heypauls being immortalized.
Their arguement is based on heypauls failure to vanquish real and imagined demons and dragons. He has only one document occasion of being called a greek god. He hasn't admitted to being intimate with any greek goddess, or how many. Has anyone seen him wearing sandles?
While he has proved his sword play, can he throw a discus or put a shot?
They, the minor gods , have a sound case and may succeed. If anyone has any information as to why the accused should be immortalized please post here?
avid
Of course, there would have to be a scrolling message board displaying messages in all lower case letters.:-)
hay-steve .... that is a "rim shot"
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, the electronic sign under the display will read (in scrolling text of course): "Here is Paul Kronengberg, with his R-9 subway train cab, circa 2001. He is typical of late 20th Century railfans and afficianodos of scrolling text. Our exhibit captures him in this most cherished of railfan environments -- a subway train cab".
BMTman
Maybe there should also be a video clip of him checking out an escalator or elevator.:-)
A man who lived by the tracks in Hawthorne and routinely walked the tracks was killed by Hoboken-Suffern train 1101 around 1:10 AM Sunday night. Apparently his phone involvement kept him from notocing the train horn. Story in Bergen Record.
DARWIN AWARD ALERT !!!
He really shouldn't have been on the tracks to begin with. No excuse there.
Bill "Newkirk"
What’s worse is that the media are turning this into another example of “Aren’t cell phones dangerous?”
Morons are morons–everywhere! Someone who:
a) Walks along train tracks
b) Ignores the train horn
deserves their worthy nomination for a Darwin award.
I agree with you JohnL, I like trains much more than him, but I don't walk the tracks for any reason. There seems to be a shortage of common sense these days and an overabundence (sp?) of finger pointing and blame assigning.
Let's see if his next of kin files a lawsuit against NJT for absence of warning signs on the ROW and the cell phone manufacturer for not having an electronic warning of an approaching train !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bet somebody in his family sues NJT.....
It seems that there will be one less knuckle-dragger in the world. I wish I could be sympathetic but .............
While entering a rush hour crowded freeway in Southern California yesterday, I saw what looked at first glance like a NYC subway car body on a flatbed trailer ahead of me. I was curious enough to pass my off ramp and work my way through traffic to get a closer look.
When I caught up to it, it turned out to be a tricked out semi-trailer with the rear end looking like the end of a subway car with the domed roof, a cab window, recessed storm door and pantographs, and an arrangement of tail lights that looked like the end of a subway car. On the right side there was one side door with windows on each side of it. On the left side, there was a vertical blank slab attached so it was a few inches from the body of the vehicle, possibly a backdrop for photography from the right side through the car. It morphed into a normal semi trailer with a large "Mountain Dew.Com" logo near the front. Has anyone seen this used in commercials?
Tom
Did some detective work on the MOUNTAINDEW.COM website. It seems to be some kind of DJ promotion involving 12 trucks and 22 cities. The LA promotion is scheduled to start today, so this would jive with your sighting. Unfortunately the site offers no clear pictures of the truck you saw.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah, click on "URBAN DEW" and then "DEW PIRATE RADIO"
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> the site offers no clear pictures of the truck you saw <<<
The two pictures on the Los Angeles link (you can click on the right hand one to enlarge it) on that site seem to be of some kind of RV with an air conditioner on the roof. I assume that it is used as a DJ booth at outdoor gatherings. It is much lower than the semi trailer I saw. But I agree that what I saw is probably connected to that promotion somehow.
Tom
Since you saw that train-on-semi setup in Southern Cali, is it possible that what you saw was the end result of one of the rumored-to-have-been junked R-27/30 cars that had been sitting in a studio lot near Glendale?
They were used in "Money Train" and one or two other features. Until recently they seemed to have disappeared (according to one of our LA correspondants).
BMTman
>>> is it possible that what you saw was the end result of one of the rumored-to-have-been junked R-27/30 cars <<<
No, when I got close it was clear that this was strictly the modification of the semi trailer, i.e eight feet wide, and not a true subway car.
Tom
LOL! Only a TRUE railfan would spend more time in L.A. traffic than he had to, just to investigate the remote possibility of a subway sighting! :O)
KP
Haven't seen that one, but I once saw an RV who's rear looked strikingly like the front of a PATH PA-car.
There was a thread a while back regarding the center platform at 59th St. on the CPW. We figured out that opening both sets of doors wasn't feasable anymore because there was no provision for a platform conductor to open and close the doors on one side of the train.
This came to me a few days ago: Why can't the T/O open the doors on his side and the C/R open the doors on the other? You could put monitors up by the T/O's position so he would be able to see the platform. Just like OPTO, only with a full length train. The C/R would still make announcements.
Dan
1 - With a full length train they probably want the conductor to do it
or
2 - The don't want the extra expense of paying someone to basically just stand there !!
3-There really isn't any need to open on both sides.
Peace,
ANDEE
"3-There really isn't any need to open on both sides."
Agreed.
Similarly, both 34th Street station designs, in addition to other stations where passengers must choose between an express or a local platform to go in the same direction, are really unforgivable.
Many passengers at 34th St./7th Ave., including myself, often wait downstairs to see what comes first. Or, we wait on one of the platforms by the stairwell, waiting to run downstairs and then upstairs to get on the train that is actually coming. (If I start running the second I see the lights, and if there is no one in front of me, I can make it.)
Either way, the process is really frustrating. However, waiting for another train, while watching one you could have boarded stop on the other track and then leave, is even more annoying.
Right, I have certainly done the same many times. Others have previously posted that the 34th street designs were supposed to foster 'faster' throughput. Of course the 'fantasy' was that the local/express swap could happen at 42nd or 14th where they were 'timed' to meet. It does often happen, but not enough to have credibility. I would surmise that the 59th street layout was a response. The fact that in Boston(see other post) doors are opened on two sides belies the impossibility in NY. As to utlity, one wonders at the transfer counts at 59th. The operative question is whether the center platform use would shorten or lengthen the dwell time for the riders.
in Boston all cars have transverse cabs that's not true in New York
At Park Street on the Red Line in Boston, there is a center platform between the two tracks, as well as side platforms. Both sides open on all trains at all time. Here is the sequence:
Open side
Open center
Close side
Close center
All trains have full-width cabs, so the guard (Boston-speak for C/R) does all of the work.
At Park Street on the Green Line in Boston, the northbound (towards Lechmere) track has platforms on both sides. All trolleys open both sides at all times. Since this is a streetcar/LRV/trolley line with low-level platforms, operators open all doors simultaneously, then close whichever side is ready first.
At Sullivan Square on the Orange Line in Boston, the northbound (towards Oak Grove) track has platforms on both sides. All trains open both sides at all times. The southbound track only platforms onto the center platform. Here's the schematic:
[southbound track][platform][northbound track][platform][unused track]
A while back Boston/MBTA expert Gerry O'Regan posted the history of this small three-track section of the Orange Line; as I recall the third track became obsolete when the line was extended and short turns were not needed (Gerry -- correct me if I'm wrong!). Subtalker (and fellow Seashorite) Boston T Party is an Orange Line guard; hopefully he can shed some more light on this interesting station and its operation.
At Five Points, with a platform arrangment the same as Park St., it goes like this:
Open side
Open center
Close center
Close side
The new Bredas go like this:
Both open at same time
Close center
Close side
The side platforms are favored here.
Denver's LRVs open up on both sides at most stations along the private ROW segment, but in one direction only - northbound in most cases. And even then, the operator may or may not do so. I have boarded northbound trains at Alameda Ave. where the doors would open only to the right and not to the center boarding area. No big deal - the green buttons along the car exterior light up, you push the button at the set of doors nearest to you, the doors open, and you climb aboard. The operator also may not open up in bad weather; instead, he or she will release the doors and passengers can press the aforementioned green buttons to board.
There are no stations at which trains open up on both sides in both directions.
About the last sentence in the previous statement "There are no stations at which trains open up on both sides in both directions." If you mean the NYC subway you are mistaken. Late night when the M Train only runs as a shuttle between Metroploitan Ave in Queens and Myrtle Ave in Brooklyn (Connecting with the J). The M train will pull up in the Center track, and open up both sides of the train. In most cases both Manhattan and Queensbound J trains pull into the station (On opposite sides of course) only minutes apart on each side of the waiting M train. Ive seen it done plenty of times coming home late from the clubs. I just cant stand the WAIT. IT FEELS LIKE IT TAKES FOREVER =)
I was referring to Denver's light rail line. Sorry for the confusion.
They open both sides at Myrtle Broadway when the M ends at that station. Open Manhattan Side, Open Queens side, CLose Manhattan side, Close Queens side.
They also open both sides at Main Street on the 7 but I do not recall which doors open and close first-this is a job for Thurston!
I was once on a J train (or was it an M?) that ran express from Marcy to Myrtle when it was supposed to run local. To allow for easier access to local trains back to the bypassed stations, the doors were opened on both sides. The normal (Queens-bound) side was opened first; I don't remember which was closed first.
IIRC last fall our 7 train opened up to the right first, then to the left (facing toward the eastern end) at Main St.
We need to give Todd a ride on the Orange Line!
Actually, the three track section runs from just south of Community College (about when the Orange rises to the surface) to just north of Wellington. At Community College, only the platform between the north and south is used. At Sullivan, both platforms are used going north and the same for Wellington.
The original plan called for the outer tracks to be north and south. The center track was going to be used for express service, inbound in the morning, outbound in the evening. At the southern point (Community College) the unused track joins the others at a switch, but is blocked with a tie chained and locked in place. At the northern point, the switch was never put in. There are some crossovers, however, to get a train from the unused track into the yard at Wellington.
The "unused" track does get used as a test track from time to time. It's not uncommon to see a "deuce" parked at Wellington Station on the unused track.
After conversation with a few knowledgable individuals, it appears the DPU ( or currently DOE) was not entirely comfortable with the signalling system and wouldn't allow the T to implement the express service. The DPU (DOE) is the state division that regulates the T.
When the new signaling system is put in place in 2004 there be any express service?
AFAIK, the signalling to be put in place on the Orange is just a continuation of the existing ATO that is used from Haymarket/ State south. So, the answer to your question is: probably not!
Currently, the north section of the line is extended block signals. Generally, a train has to leave the station ahead for the signal to clear. From Sullivan north, there are some shorter blocks because of the distance between stations.
You cannot open the doors from to different operating positions. The doors will open on both sides from the two adjacent cabs on cars that do not have transverse cabs or cars with transverse cabs doors can be opened on both sides from one cab but, you cannot open doors from to different locations at the same time. All cars built up to the R-38 have drum swithches which have three positions, on, off, thru. They must be on in the conductors position, off in the first and last cab and the open end of the train and thru in all other cabs. The door buttons only work when the drum swich is set in the on position. If you set more than the two drum swiches in the conductors's oerating position, all the doors will not open. Also the conductor will not be able to get indication if all the drum switches are not set up properly. (Indication lets the conductor and train operator know that all side doors are closed and locked.) ON R-40 equiptment and up you have to zone up to set up a conductor's position. When you zone up the door buttons become energized. If you zone up more than one position, all the doors on the will not open and you will not have indication for both zones. ( You only need to zone up from one side the opposite side zones at the same time.) Cars that have transverse cabs (R-44,46,68,68A)you can only zone up from one cab only.
Just to add, setting up the drum switches you are "drum up the train".
While waiting for an Orange line train to New Carrolton, I saw two trains stops at the Federal Center station, going to Vienna and the blue line destination that's not Adison Rd. On both of those trains, thee was one car that appeared to be out of serivce on the train that was in service. Of course, since it was out of service, the lights were out other than the ones that illuminated the doorways. Is there a reason for these cars being out of service on an in service train?
Rephrase your question and I might be able to answer it. I think I know what you are hinting at but I don't understand the post entirely.
Just heard a report from NY1 that nb R has derailed at City Hall Stration. 1 injured.
Arti
Story on NY1 website.
Oh so it was the Manhattan bound tracks. So Brooklyn bound N,R should be normal. The R is going OVER the bridge then on the F tracks I guess. Too bad I missed that. Never rode an R46 over the Manhattan bridge!
There's no connection to the "F" from the Manhattan Bridge, nor at DeKalb. That article had to mean "B, D, Q" over the bridge from DeKalb then to 6th Ave. where it might join the "F" there.
Another article from 1010 wins
I always had a scary feeling coming uptown around city hall and rector, so many tight curves.
Wow I consider myself lucky I was on a S/B N going through that area around 9:15 this morning. Thinking about it now the curve seemed abnormaly rough and I also felt a lurch that I never felt before,
that Hippo N screamed.
I heard on the radio that all service on the Broadway line is suspended between 34th and Dekalb. What a mess! Glad I decided to come back home after the meeting "no show" instead of get in that mess.
If they don't fix it by rush hour it's gonna be a mess, those B,D,Q lines are gonna get hit with N/R riders.
So will 8th ave and the IRT as well.
Yeah, and NY1 had that so-called "transit reporter" Arthur Chien reporting it, he is useless and it is OBVIOUS that he never rides the subway. He is in the wrong line of work IMO. Paul Flueranges was a much better transit reporter.
Peace,
ANDEE
>Paul Flueranges was a much better transit reporter.
They had said that the suspension of "The Straphanger's Report" was only TEMPORARY. It's been years now! (Boy, did
I use to make sure I was watching weekends at 11PM for that).
They had said that the suspension of "The Straphanger's Report" was only TEMPORARY
And you believed them ????????????
Look at hoe many stores/eateries close for 'Renovations' and never reopen !!
... not to mention how many stores are "LIQUIDATING - GOING OUT OF BUSINESS" ... "LOST OUR LEASE" who never really DO. :)
On tuesday morning (4/10/2001) on my way to work I saw Paul Fleuranges himself, with the unmistakenable droopy face and handbag that says "CBS NEWS". He got on at Junction Blvd station on the #7 by himself without his camera crew and stood right next to me leaning against the door. He left at Queensboro Plaza for the N. A true transit reporter will definitely ride the rails over a news van!
BTW, nobody in the train said anything to him, as if he's just another straphanger.
On the bright side, I went railfanning today of all days. My R train rerouted through 63rd. St from 36th and we ran express down sixth avenue over the north side of the Manny Bridge. R-46s are just as slow over the bridge, FYI.
Several confused passengers got on and acted confused. I, with my incredible ability to listen to the C/R's announcements, helped them to get off the train and wait for the proper train.
I don't know if this was due to the derailment or just that the MTA is lying, but the Sea Beach Express was not running today. The nerve!
Dan
R-46s are just as slow over the bridge, FYI.
Contrary to popular belief, the R68's aren't really slow, the bridge is slow!
:-) Andrew
Yeah, reallyslow! It hasn’t moved in years (except to drop gently to bits)!
Well, the main span hasn't ripped loose yet, anyway.
Those 68's moan on that upgrade. Slants do better on the upgrade but are no faster than the 68's going down because of the timers.
And damn well they SHOULD go slow; not only do they have the right/left "S" curve to negotiate, they have that little flipback/reverse just before the train enters Cortlandt Street. Stand at the north end of Cortlandt and listen to 'em SING! A Subway Symphony! Slants make the BEST music, R32s are a close second. The all-time best at making music there - THE R27/R30s! Now THOSE cars could REALLY sing!
wayne
Hey, Wayne, how 'bout those Redbirds on the 5 at the jug handle? Or City Hall Loop?
Actually the R62As make more noise in the City Hall Loop than do the Redbirds. BTW the bastards put tracks sprayers in there; we saw them from the rear window during our unauthorised Jan.14 2001 trip round the loop. I dont think they've done it yet at Mott Avenue, let's hope they don't. That's one of the better locations to hear wheel noise. THESE are also good ones: #2/3 just out of Park Place (OUCH!)
AND just north of Fulton Street (Double ouch!) and also just outside of Clark Street; that one's a reverse curve.
wayne
I'm not sure if this was done on account of the derailment. Since passage from Brooklyn to Manhattan and vice verse was impossible, could the soon to be reopened Manhattan Bridge southside tracks be used?
Work trains have already used these tracks , so is it possible in an emergency situation like yesterday (4/10) to access these tracks even though they are not officially open ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It could not have picked a worse place to derail, right on the "S" curve, which is one of (if not THE) tightest in the entire system.
Did anyone find out which car (they said it was the sixth, which would make it a non-driving motor) was involved? All I could see by the newscasts was that it was a train of R46's.
wayne
Murphy's law of selective gravitation (a screwdriver or wrench will fall in a location where it will cause maximum damage) seems to apply here. Tight tunnel, middle of train ... fortunately if it happened at car 6, it's probably safe to assume that a cutting tool was used to break the train so they could get to it, assuming it was the front truck of 6 car. Imagine what a pain in the patoot it would have been had it been a car with link bars on both ends. (wow, I think I exceeded my annual limit of speculation here) ...
Since they say no broken rail was found, only thing I can imagine would be debris on the track (no mention of that) or the truck really didn't want to turn that far on the curve and that caused the flange to ride up and over. So many possibilities, so little interest by the media. And that "has generators onboard" was a good one ... nothing like media reporting on technical things without bothering to ask anyone who really knows what a skyhook is. :)
It amazes me how the 75 footers can handle that nasty S curve anyways.
Well, should be an interesting investigation - if there wasn't kosmic debris there, then it would appear that some questions about how close those flanges come to their limit are in order and 75'ers will be banished from THAT part of the subway in the future as well. I know 75 footers have a longer "wheelbase" and it's entirely possible that they ride up on the flanges normally as it is if that curve is as tight as I remember it being. Just because the car body doesn't scrape the walls doesn't mean they might be too long for that portion of track. You can only roll the dice so many times before you get snake eyes.
WARNING: SPECULATION - I am not with the NTSB.
Sounds like a mystery crash so far though unless there's a broken wheel or some other sign of failure ... and what I hear so far is no debris of any kind, no lifted spikes or guides, no cracks, no frogs, no imprudent speed ... I enjoy mysteries. Looks like this will be one.
I have absolutley no clue as to the cause. But from what has seemingly been ruled out so far, it remains to be seem if something fell out of the truck or from under the car body.
Yesterday, it was announced that B2 track from South of Whitehall to north of City Hall will be taken out of service from 01:00-05:00a.m for two nights this week and two next week. The nights were last night and tonight and next week they are Monday and Tuesday nights.
That automatically means that the E will run to WTC those nights.
I'm surprised they aren't running this G.O. for four consecutive nights.
Ya know, there would be some kind of major irony here if they found a tunnel flaw that forced them to close the line for 10 years and made all the N and R trains go over the Manhattan Bridge during that time :-)
Dunno ... might be time for CP Rail to rebuild the car floats ... I'm sure there's some barges that can handle 660 foot trains. :)
This thing is hilarious. Click Here
Try the hacker version, looks kind of familiar :-)
Arti
ROTFLMAO
I don't think many will "get it"
Peace,
ANDEE
That is so cool. It seems to do any page. The on;y problem is that on this one, if you click on the posts, it just brings you back to the main page.
I was cracking up seeing that, but my favorite is when I set it to "Elmer Fudd" mode. You'll be kwacking up, but I've just wealwized that it's wabbit season.
It is. Wasclay Wabbit!!! It's a scream, and works with any BBS!!! I tried it with another one in Elmer Fudd mode.
A mudslide on the New England Central at Westminster, Vermont will be hapmering service on Amtrak's Vermonter. An NEC train was passing over a portion of the line that had been destabilized by snowmelt and the recent storm front. The first SD-40 made it over the soft spot, but the trailing SD-40 and GP-38 along w/ the 13 lead cars slid down the hill and into the Connecticut River. Vermonter service will now operate in two parts. One trainset will run from St. Albans to White River Jct. where passengers will then be bussed to Springfield VT. They will then catch the other Vermonter set for the rest of the trip to DC. There will be a 1 hour delay for Southbound moves due to the need to turn the train at the Springfield station.
I've noticed on some of the posting that people are complaining that AirTrain's terminal in Jamaica station is "facing the wrong way" (includes Josh Hill's posts).
OK, enlighten me: Jamaica Station is east of the Van Wyck Expressway. AirTrain vehicles must, therefore, travel east-bound to reach Jamaica Station.
Which other way would you folks like the terminal to face?
It's the same arrangement as the HBLR will have in Hoboken. If a Airtrain train is to continue to Manhattan it will have to change ends and wye. No big deal.
No, I think that the Manhattan trains will just turn west and bypass Jamaica. Or maybe it will be some sort of loop.
[No, I think that the Manhattan trains will just turn west and bypass Jamaica. Or maybe it will be some sort of loop.]
That's what I've heard. They'll turn in towards Manhattan west of Jamaica, which I think is a shame for several reasons.
[Which other way would you folks like the terminal to face?]
I can think of quite a few advantages to having the Airtrain come in from the far side. Service to Manhattan could be combined with a stop at Jamaica to allow higher frequencies during off-peak periods. And the Airtrain could be tagged on to the end of a full-length LIRR vehicle using 60' (or longer articulated) cars. That way the Airtrain could travel into Manhattan via Atlantic Avenue without diminishing LIRR capacity, and again, there would be economic and frequency of service benefits. Also, having Airtrain come in from the east would save some of the $200 million the new connection will cost, although it would presumably cost something to build the Jamaica loop in the first place. And you could even combine it with Queens subway bypass or enhanced Montauk branch service! Also, there's the matter of the JFK-LGA shuttle -- if it could be routed through Jamaica, Jamaica travellers would also reap the benefits of an intermediate stop going to *both* airports. It could go Jamaica--Montauk line--Freight line--Hell's Gate line. There are other ways to do the same thing (Rockaway branch, which would also open the possibility of combining it with a cross-Queens service, or the new connection west of Airtrain), but like the Lower and Midtown Manhattan alternative they all bypass Jamaica.
"I can think of quite a few advantages to having the Airtrain come in from the far side. Service to Manhattan could be combined with a stop at Jamaica to allow higher frequencies during off-peak periods. And the Airtrain could be tagged on to the end of a full-length LIRR vehicle using 60' (or longer articulated) cars. That way the Airtrain could travel into Manhattan via Atlantic Avenue without diminishing LIRR capacity, and again, there would be economic and frequency of service benefits. Also, having Airtrain come in from the east would save some of the $200 million the new connection will cost, although it would presumably cost something to build the Jamaica loop in the first place. And you could even combine it with Queens subway bypass or enhanced Montauk branch service!"
I must confess - I had not given any thought to hooking up AirTrain to the back of an LIRR train. Very imaginative. I congratulate you.
But, how long would that take, and would the LIRR be able to keep a rush-hour schedule with it?
I must confess - I had not given any thought to hooking up AirTrain to the back of an LIRR train. Very imaginative. I congratulate you.
But, how long would that take, and would the LIRR be able to keep a rush-hour schedule with it?
Hmmm... Interesting concept. But would the FRA consider this a newly made-up train and require the crew to walk the entire train? With many rush hour LIRR trains already five city blocks long, that could take a while.
[Hmmm... Interesting concept. But would the FRA consider this a newly made-up train and require the crew to walk the entire train? With many rush hour LIRR trains already five city blocks long, that could take a while.]
I certainly hope not! And from what I hear you couldn't count on the FRA to grant a waiver, either.
[But, how long would that take, and would the LIRR be able to keep a rush-hour schedule with it?]
I'm not sure -- I have the same question myself. In San Francisco, the two car streetcars join up to make longer Muni Metro trains when they enter the tunnel under Market Street, and it doesn't take very long, but this may present different challenges. I think at least some of them could be solved -- Stephen Bauman suggested once eliminating the electrical connections between the cars, and using wireless instead to increase reliability, and it would be possible to use a failsafe that would make it unnecessary to hook up the air lines. Also, the Airtrains will have CBTC and AC motor control, meaning that they should be able to approach a stationary train at an optimal slope while maintaining safe stopping distance. If the LIRR train's dwell time at Jamaica is 30 seconds, it seems to me you could reduce the delay due to the need to creep into the connection to the point where it would be no longer than station dwell time, though for safety reasons I don't think the trains could actually touch until the doors had closed.
Another possibility I've considered -- if Airtrain ran into Manhattan every 8 minutes, you could just leave articulated LIRR coaches attached to Airtrain full time and run them around JFK. They'd miss the station and wouldn't actually take on passengers until the train reached Jamaica, and then they'd offer connecting service to Atlantic Avenue and Lower Manhattan. (I don't know enough about the LIRR schedule to know how many thru trains you'd want to schedule to Lower Manhattan if you had that option).
OK guys what happened today? From what I know there was supposed to be a trip meeting at Jay Street/Boro hall on the S/B platform at the center news kiosk. I got there around 9:45am and waited till almost 10:30am no one showed up. I didn't see anyone else standing around.
I also searched the whole Jay st station for familiar faces but didn't see any. So I took an F back and then the bus back home after having some lunch.
So did I get the date/time wrong or was the trip canceled?
www.nycsubway.org does not work as of right now. Please substitute www.nycsubway.org with subway.k2nesoft.com in all URL's.
I suspect it is more than a DNS problem. Was posting when it went down, it got real slow, then traceroute showed that k2nesoft's external T1 router could be reached, but nothing beyond. I suggest that k2nesoft's big router thing went kaput for a while, or perhaps they were reorganizing their network, then for some reason the DNS server clapped out after that. Of course, if k2nesoft has a firewall not transparent to traceroute requests, it would give rise to the same effect. However I suspect the problem is a network failure as I have successfully traced route before this I think.
Lexcie
It most likely was, as not only was SubTalk, but also the whole site.
k2nesoft was also among the missing, as was quuxuum.org and any site housed there.
Sounds like a router bombed somewhere, as sites in PA and DE were also among the vanished. This all began somewhere around 7 last nite. The PA & DE sites were back by 11, but nycsubway and k2nesoft weren't.
Perchance Dave Pirmann can shed some light on yesterday and part of today. At least everything is copasetic at the moment.
I was reading SubTalk when it happened. It was sometime during the 4 PM hour.
??? Monday night (early Tuesday morning) I was in the middle of reading SubTalk posts when all of a sudden I couldn't connect anymore. It stayed that way until this afternoon.
Now the main site appears to be back, so it saves me a little extra typing!
I hope this doesn't get to be a habit. I missed Subtalk tremendously. I'm off this week and was looking forward to reading posts from topo to bottom but I got ambushed yesterday when all of a sudden the website just shut down. Let's hope this doesn't happen again for a long while.
Quuxuum's DNS appears to be back now ... Mike! THANKS for the tip on the k2nesoft workaround! I wasn't aware of the connection. But once I saw the subway.k2nesoft.com, that tells me that the subtalk machine is actually there and NOT on quuxuum ... since the machine name is the stuff before the first dot ...
Fingers ... shaking ... less ... Bill ... Shattner ... ecting mode ... engaged ... WHEW! :)
I'm assuming this answers my previous question. Can you dumb it down for the technically challenged here? Why can't I access this site from WebTV, but I can from my PC? Any word as to when the problem will go away?
I presume that is because your PC had a DNS cache which took longer to expire than that on the WebTV server. What this means is that your PC remembered which IP number the computer quartz.k2nesoft.com has, whereas the WebTV server had already "expired" that IP number to which www.nycsubway.org was mapped. I am surprised this is the case, my PC doesn't act like it has a DNS cache. But then I am using Windows 95 and Winsock II.
That's unusual, since my PC was only built 3 months ago, long before the the url change. In fact, I've never even heard of this old URL before now. It does seem to work with WebTV now.
Forgive my techno-illiteracy.
Not to worry, it isn't you or WebTV ... when you go to connect to ANY site on the internet, you put in a name (as in www.nycsubway.org) however, to connect you to a site, the browser has to do a lookup of the IP address (something like 127.0.0.1) ... there is a thing called a Domain Name Server (DNS) which accepts the name of the URL and squirts back the proper IP number to go and connect to the machine at the site you wish to visit.
The DNS server went away so when your browser wanted to get the number for nycsubway.org, there was no answer. And with no answer, the number couldn't be gotten to your browser and thus even though the site was lit, your machine didn't know the number to get here. That's what that stuff is all about since "names" are a lot easier to remember than numbers.
But when the DNS goes away, there's no way to tell your browser where to go to get to the site and that's why it all vanished on ya.
Something else has to be different!
This site works much faster than the old site in recent weeks!
Verizon probably replaced the salted string with copper. :)
Fortunately I've found my way back on Subtalk thanks to the alternative URL. So it's a DNS problem. Wonder how it happened?
And the cookie doesn't work so I gotta keep entering name, password when I post.
The cookie will only work with nycsubway.org owing to the way cookies work - they can only be set or returned to the site which placed them and k2nesoft isn't nycsubway.org ... but that's why. DNS is back so if you come in through the normal entrance, the cookie will work again.
I've added the "subtalk blackout network" URL to my list since this DNS thing has happened a few times before - the problem isn't at subtalk itself - it's further "upstream" ... but store this "bookmark" also in case you need it:
http://subway.k2nesoft.com/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi
This place has turned into an express stop now with two street entrances! :)
So, sombody's DNS server went "on the fritz". It also seemed to affect parts of PA and DE. The Wilmington & Western Railroad site didn't answer, nor did parts of Kevin Walsh's Forgotten NY site (mostly links to servers on quuxuum.org) so, whatever it was, a lot of sites "vanished" between 4 and 11 PM, depending on where it it was. nycsubway.org came back between 6:15 and 7:20 today.
It must not be working everywhere!
As of 19:50 Netscape 4.6 advised it could not be found!
nycsubway.org still isn't working from my ISP (spec.net).
I'll try AOL later.
Give it another try, John. I finally got it at 21:15!
I'm not going to get into explanations for what happened. However a lot of you armchair system admins are totally off base on what was going on. The problems were completely out of my hands so my word of advice is : deal with it.
Me? I just waited it out; it was back when I tried at about 12:05AM. Don't know what happened; couldn't get on either at home (dialup) or work (T1) so it must have been further up the food chain.
glad all is back up and OK.
wayne
Well we missed ya just the same and are REALLY glad to have you and your hard work back for us to play with again ...
exactly
Due to a trip to Washington D.C. I will have to subtalk for the week. But don't worry I will take photos of the metro and its trains. I will be back next thursday.
NOTE: I am still here it's just that im leaving on thursday in the morning.
OK. ENjoy your trip!
A few hints/things for your trip:
AVOID THE TOURISTS!!! How should you do this? Be smarter than they.
For instance:
Buy your farecard in advance.
Don't ride in the middle of the train. The ends are your best bet.
Avoid Smithsonian (also Woodley Park, if you go to the zoo, use Cleveland Park because no tourist in their right mind knows its closer to the zoo than Woodley is).
Check out wmata.com for more info.
Also, NO CAF CARS FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 2.5 WEEKS
BTW: Will you be railfanning while you are here?
Just a reminder.
The trip is a week from this Saturday. We will be meeting at 9:50 AM in Union Station at Gate G, under the Acela advertisement next to the ladies' room. More details available here. Please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com if you plan on attending.
For the past 24+ hours, I cannot access any webpage from this site via WebTV. All I get is a 404 "page not found" error. Can you explain what's up, Dave? I'm sure the other posters here who use WebTV exclusively are curious to know what's up.
Some sort of DNS problem. subway.k2nesoft.com (the old URL) still worked.
You know, thinking about it, Pork has a point.
I remember when I used to ride the Stansted Express out of Liverpool St., there was a section it went through that was basically wasteland. As you leave Liverpool St., you go through Hackney Downs, Seven Sisters, and then Tottenham Hale on the Heron Line (which eventually extends to Cambridge via Bishop Stortford). Now, I seem to remember the dump being somewhere between Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale, but I could be wrong. It was 1996 when I last saw that dump, so I don't really know if it is still there. I really ought to know London better, but I don't.
Anyone knows which dump that is, and whereabouts it is and what it's called? It's a section that was fenced off with grey metal fences and it looks like grassland but there were like fridge doors and trash everywhere, and the railway line runs on an embankment.
Lexcie
What is going on with that project? Is it done? Will it start upon the arrival of the R143?
First lets get the R142's runing right befor we move into the CBTC and the R143's. The TA can't even get the R142's to stop one in a stop with out it going past. The R143's are now on hold becouse there is no room at the plants to build them. All the R142's are still sitting there being worked on.
Robert
LOL.
Can the R142 work with CBTC?
No the R142's can't run CBTC. They are not equited with it. The R143's are not going to have it ether when they con in, they are going to get it when the "L" line is ready for it.
Could the R142 recieve it through retofit?
Any car, even an R10 off the scrap heap, can be equipped to run on ATO.
Yesterday @ East 180 Street I saw a R62A on the #5 line from Van Cortlandt Yard car #s were 2175-74-73-72-71 I dont know the rest of the 5 car #s Whats going on is 240 V.C. Yard taking hold on the #5 OPTO?
As someone mentioned on another board, 240th Street yard gave Westchester Yard one of its sets, which I guess is now on the 5 line. They gave it a long time ago.
This is what I've heard
You can't enter addresses into TripQuest! You can do it with RideGuide (WMATA). Its fun to figure out with Mapquest the mailing address for each station so you can use it figure out where the nearest RRL stop is.
Aside from its service deficiencies, SEPTA is sadly lacking in Information Dispersal. Example One: the Route Map costs $7.xx. If that's not humorous enough, they have a telephone information system which automatically asks you for your "Star location number." Are these star numbers published on route schedules? Posted on bus stop signs? Mentioned on the web site? Do these numbers exist anywhere but in the SEPTAeaucrocrats' imaginations? hmmph.
As a matter of fact, yes, they are published on some route schedules. I think the 65 had them, or maybe it was the 21, IIRC. But, i'm not sure if they still have them though. Besides, you can find the information you need by other means. I guess the Star Location Number thing was just an exoeriment with SEPTA that they just did not continue, as usual...However, in Toronto, they have an identification number on each bus stop so when you call you can find out the status of the routes serviceng that bus stop. It sounds rather interesting.
The star location numbers are those tiny 5 or 6 digit numbers listed in each stop. I think the MFL schedule has them too.
"Example One: the Route Map costs $7.xx."
When I was in Boston, I was unpleasantly surprised to find out that the MBTA wanted $5 (IIRC) for a system map. Huh? Chicago gives them away (two maps, CTA and RTA), as does New York and most cities I've been to. I had to settle for a bunch of commuter rail timetables and a dinky cardboard subway map. The subway map is somewhat useful but it's stylized so it doesn't give you a strong sense of where the subway lines are located in relation to the city at large and to other services (buses, commuter rail, etc.).
The SEPTA route maps show all the bus and rail routes in relation to the city. The streets are even marked down, and I'm not just talkin about the streets served by transit.
I agree about the route map. That IS pathetic.
The Netherlands
The flight of the train
Apr 12th 2001 | AMSTERDAM
From The Economist print edition
Dubious solution: magnetic levitation. Real problem: regional development
IT’S a glorious vision. It is 2010. From Schiphol airport and Amsterdam, across the pastures of the north-eastern Netherlands, at 400km an hour (250mph) on its elevated track, hurtles Europe’s first long-distance magnetic-levitation train. A decades–old dream of German transport technologists has become reality. And, suddenly, the Netherlands’ far north, peripheral and job-hungry, is less than an hour from its commercial heart—and, with an extra dose of vision, within commuting distance of Bremen and Hamburg too, for if the line goes this far, why not on into Germany? There’s one snag: vision it is, and, after recent debate within the Dutch government, looks likely to remain so. The reason, unlike the might-be train, is down-to-earth: money.
Mag-lev technology is no novelty. Instead of running on rails, the vehicle is raised, within “guideways”, by the magnetic force created by an electric current. A “linear” motor propels it. In a plain electric motor, a rotor, carrying the current, whirls round between two prongs of a fixed magnet known as a stator. A linear motor is a rolled-out version of this: the track serves as the stator, and the rotor—the vehicle—whirls along it. Two simple ideas in principle, both devilish in practice, let alone in hard, daily use.
Still, Germany’s first experimental mag-lev vehicle appeared in 1971. Successive versions have been proven, say the makers, over 700,000-plus kilometres on a 31km test-track; and those makers are a consortium, Transrapid International, set up by some of the grandest names in German engineering—Siemens, Thyssen Krupp and, though they recently left it, Daimler.
So the dream could come true. Up in the Dutch north, in Friesland and Groningen, many people hope it will get the chance. The bustling Randstad, Holland’s big urban cluster in the west, looks, and feels itself, near the heart of the EU. Those two northern provinces are on its edge: farmland, waterways and lakes, and (except at holiday times) not much else, bounded by the cold North Sea, the Ems estuary and—a big obstacle in pre-EU days—the German border.
The regional heart, Groningen city, with 175,000 people, promotes itself as a distribution centre, and indeed it has good road links, and canals—big carriers of goods in the Netherlands—east to the Ems ports and west to the Ijsselmeer. But passenger trains are slow, and air services, at least for now, non-existent: KLM’s pilots’ school is up here, but its flights are not. The city also has an ancient university and an institute of higher education, with 36,000 students in all. To its boosters, Groningen is a “city of knowledge”, with a future in life sciences and information technology, a Cambridge of the Dutch fens.
Maybe, but not yet. Firms are coming in (as will, soon, the eastern end of a transatlantic fibre-optic cable and the jobs that it may bring). And the city’s huge unemployment rate—almost 20%, even after a sharp fall since the mid-1990s—is in part due merely to students not rushing to get a first job. Yet essentially, in the EU economy as geographically, the region is out on the fringe.
So the Dutch have been studying hard how to bring their north-east into the country’s busy mainstream—and reduce pressure on the crowded Randstad. Improve existing railways? Build a new high-speed track? Or go the whole hog, mag-lev? This would be speedier still; and, important for its (and north-eastern) economics, the train’s comparative lightness could let it, unlike conventional trains, make several halts on the way without losing much time.
Though plain citizens wonder about the technology, the transport ministry fancies mag-lev. The environment one pictures the line striding on its pillars over the landscape, and is alarmed. The finance ministry says no: at maybe $6 billion, three times the cost of high-speed rail, mag-lev could not make money. So who would finance it? Even on their own estimate of $4.5 billion, the would-be builders—the Dutch arm of Siemens, with several Dutch partners—accept that the state would have to put in 30-50%.
The killer blow may have come already from Transrapid’s own country. Europe’s first long mag-lev line could have been in service by 2006, and that was no vision. After eight years of planning, parliamentary approval, and backing from the German government and railways, construction was due to start last summer on a line from Hamburg to Berlin. That February the government cancelled it: the investment and revenue figures just did not add up. If Germans will not invest, in German technology, on 290km between their two largest cities, would you on 200km from Schiphol to Groningen?
True, Transrapid has just signed a deal to build a 30km line between Shanghai’s financial district and its airport. But to the still studying Dutch that hardly proves the point. And, though mag-lev against rail is what makes the headlines, the real issue is not just one of rival transport technologies. It is a much older chestnut: regional policy.
three years later, the beforementioned maglev-line is still in its pre-development stages, but today the Dutch government announced the go-ahead for the planning of a line between the Schiphol-Amsterdam region and the Northern provinces of the Netherlands: the so-called 'Zuiderzeelijn' (Zuiderzee ('South-Sea) being the present IJsselmeer (IJssel-lake)). It's too early to conclude whether this line should be a maglev, high-speed or a 'plain' intercity link, but the government plans clearly prioritize this link to be built within the next 15-25 years or so, to improve and further sustain economic growth in the northern provinces.
I guess we'll have to wait and see whether this really is going to happen or whether it is going to remain just that: a plan. The future will tell (I won't ;-) ).
-Alargule
Today we took a D from Stillwell to the Concourse yard lead and back, and we had to change the end signs. (Uses hex crank just like side signs. R40-46 end signs are motorized). So I scroll the long alphabetical sequence from "D" to "Not in Service" at the end. I pass "V", and lo and behold, the is there! All this time I had been telling people that the W was a replacement for the , but both are on there. I even tried a side sign, and found the same thing, plus "Special" and "Not In Service". I had seen this on a side sign a ffew years ago, and assumed it was one of the newer replacement signs (with both the yellow and orange "Q", etc.), but the newer sign I checked a couple of weeks ago didn't have it.
Years ago, I had snuck and scrolled through one of the original signs, and I remember coming up to "V", and I stopped. I probably assumed nothing was after it, or I figured I better change the sign back soon.
So this means that all equipment could have displayed "W" for the past 14 years! And This explains why they chose "W" instead of "T", and the dual Q arrangement: because even if no new signs are purchased, the rote designations are supported (except the Brighton express could use only 68's and the local would anything other than 68's).
So for a rundown of the original R-68 readings (which may disappear soon), it's all the existing and 1986 era routes, plus the V, W, and eastrtn div J, L, M (no "Z" yet). The JFK logo is where "I" would have been (something else I never knew).
C and Q are diamonds only
B, N & R have both circle and diamond (diamond "R"--Nassau special is still yellow as it was on maps)
In other news, I got to operate through the "dash" (w4-34th) on the way up, and my old territory from Beverly-Kings Hwy on the way back.
I guess the 68's do take off a bit slower in some places, but hey, I don't need a rocket ship.
Actually, it depends on which rollsign. The ones with smaller letters are the original ones. The one with the big letters are the replaced ones.
No, these were originals. Not only the smaller letters, but also alphabetical, and with C and Q as diamonds only, and yellow diamond R.
What I forgot to add yesterday, was that the reason it was know that the W was on the other signs was because they are not alphabetical, and the W is not on the end, but rather in the middle, usually next to N. (Newer signs have the routes grouped according to where they run). Many people began seeing the W on the R-40 signs, because since the "N" looks the same upside down, often the crew would stop scrolling as soon as they saw it, but on the outside would be displayed an supside down "W" (some people thought it was a yellow diamond "M".) I first saw this around 10 or 11 years ago. On the alphabetical 68's, when the crew stopped at the upside down N, the outside displays an supside down "M" (leading many for years to think it was a brown "W").
Since the W on the original signs is at the end, after "V" (which also wasn't used), you would never see it. You would have to be lucky enough to catch a T/O changing the sign to "Not In Service", and since it so long from "D" to the end, they don't usually bother.(I did learn about the and from seeing the T/O change the 110B front sign)
I tried telling you this awhile back, glad you finally found out for yourself. Maybe once you hit the road, we'll get to work together someday. My job (N215) is open on the motors from Tuesday-Friday, and this pick is running until June 30. If not, good luck anyway.
Would that have included "The White Line" (P, T, U, X, Y) also? I'm assuming not.
I watched the DVD of "Boiler Room" last night. It's an interesting but rather unheralded story about a crooked stock brokerage firm on Long Island. But what a blooper I spotted ... near the beginning, the narrator is describing how the firm seems like a true Wall Street outfit despite its suburban location. He remarks that while the place is an hour away from Wall Street, the brokers "look like they just got off the 6 train at Fulton."
Oops!
Hollywood must be using a very old map.Remember--Money Train showed the 6 at Wall Street.
Even though Wall St. was really Union Square in disguise. Imagine that - they didn't use Hoyt-Schermerhorn!
I have seen movie "Money Train". Where went they on the train? What
section track it was? Don't know you?
Since I'm a road-geek too, I noticed the scenes of him driving out to "Exit 53 on the LIE". Curiously, he went via NY 25A/Northern Blvd in Manhasset.
:-) Andrew
Went out to SCOTIA today and saw the rebuilt car sets. There was one set that was finished with one enigine nearing compleation. There were also some trailer cars that were striped bare near the rebuilt ones. If anyones lntrested,SUPER STEEL is in the industrial park off route 5[STATE STREET/CENTRAL AVE],across the Mohawk river from I 890[I 90 spur thru Schenectady].
YoHo and greets from Voorheesville ... nice to know there's some locals around here! :)
Someone on another board posted that on Monday URHS-owned PRR 7000 (PRR's first GP9, built October 1955) went from Cape May (it's currently leased to CMSL) to Atlantic City (CR Shared Assets Tuckahoe to Winslow and NJT to AC) Monday for a transportation expo Tue-Thu.
I took NJT train 4607 this morning to see it. Curiously, the conductor made a 3 to 4 minute phone call from the pay phone on the platform at Hammonton. He re-boarded and we left Hammonton 1 minute late. We arrived on time in AC. #7000 looked splended in her black (or infinitely dark green) paint displayed on track 2; coupled to her was Budd RDC M-407, then M-410, and Santa Fe #800133 Pullman diner "Epicurus" closest to the end-of-track bumper. New Jersey Railroads bar/lounge car #5450 was in solitude on track 3.
Both Budd cars still have "Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines" painted above the windows. M-407 has a PRSL logo (gold letters in red filled circle) and M-410 has a similar CMSL logo. I neglected to notice whether the opposite logos were on the other sides of the cars.
I was on a B train this afternoon that seemed to have two C/R's. A woman made the in-station announcements while a man made the announcements between stops. The man spoke very loudly and gave very detailed transfer information, listing (in most cases) the destinations of all connecting lines. At Broadway-Lafayette he even mentioned the possibility of using the 6 to get to Canal and transferring to the various BMT lines there. (He announced the transfer to the M -- the M! -- four times in total.)
The train also made an extra stop. At Pacific, the woman announced that the next stop would be Grand. Next thing I knew, we were on the D/Q track at DeKalb! (I'm not sure how we got there. If he had pushed the wrong button, we would have been on the tunnel track, which would have necessitated neat corrective action, but trains on the 4th Avenue express track rarely make the double switch to stop at DeKalb yet continue over the bridge. Did the tower mess up and quickly correct itself?) As if nothing unusual had happened, the man announced all the transfers, we stopped, a few confused passengers wondered where we were going, and we resumed our course towards Grand.
Sometimes T/O's like to make announcements. I don't know why, but they do.
As for that B at Pacific going to DeKalb, that happens sometimes, I saw one cross in front of a rush hour R train, holding up service unnecesarily. Why do they do this? Anyone know?
We didn't hold anyone up. There were no trains on the 4th Avenue local track, and if we held up a D or Q, we would have held it up on the bridge anyway.
The C/R's had no idea the train was going to stop at DeKalb. At Pacific the next stop was Grand. At DeKalb it was Grand again.
If the train had pulled in on the tunnel track instead, what would most likely have happened then? Back up past the switch and try again? Go back to Coney? Broadway to 63rd to Queensbridge, and then back to Brooklyn from there? Or my favorite -- along the M (stopping only at the Bowery to make up for the missed Grand stop, and maybe also Fulton and/or Chambers and/or Canal for the transfers) onto the Williamsburg Bridge approach, then back through the Chrystie Street cut?
Lousy train operator! He darn well was able to see the lineup leaving Pacific St. that they would be making a stop at DeKalb. If he was worth his salt, he would have informed his partners via the intercom. I'm sure the instructor told the student: "Proof positive, don't trust those train operators!"
There could also have been one of those "OK, genius" incidents where the C/R really cheesed off the T/O and the operator decided to let them stew in their own juices ... tell me that never happens. :)
Naw!!! That would never happen! :)
Uh ... yeah, as if ... Funny ... for the short stint I did as a "semi-conductor" (loud klaxon sounds here) and then as a MOTORMAN ... (sorry, I just had to say it, that *WAS* my title) ... I had my encounters of the "grumpy old bitch up front" as well as the "ain't I cool? I have a *microphone* and you don't" dweeb monkey in the middle.
I must admit, I was lucky. The way the crew orders worked out back then, the dispatch guys were willing to pair anybody with anybody else who wouldn't just KILL them, I usually ended up with friends on all of my trips, guys who would threaten to burn a watermelon on my front lawn if I didn't chill so we didn't have much of that ... when I C/R'd, I always went out with the same guy (who ended up in tard duty after trashing a D train a few months later) and when I motored, it was one of two guys who were buddies also ... we were called "The Mod Squad" by the "guidos" at Stillwell ... I won't bother with the "my origin is better than yours crap that was the way of life in the "ta" back in 1970-71 when I did my thing there at Stillwell ... I lived at 205th and Bainbridge at the time though I reported to the other end of the D for crew call ... just to show you what happens when you cross a wiglet in the "ta" (and that was in HAPPIER times) ...
Suffice it to say that aside from the kibbitzing and chop-busting, I was lucky because it was always familiar faces - "F-Troop" since we were the newbies and everyone else just hoped we'd go away ... every now and then though, I would end up with strangers ... and it wasn't a happy tour that day usually ...
Just so's ya know where my observation was coming from. I was the token white boy in the tour of duty and as such "went over to the other side" ... it REALLY pissed off the paisans when it didn't bother me one bit. To this day I swear I was set up with an off-call yard move when I was revenue and not a switchman and my R9 sheet the bed in a most unusual way ... service app after call-on, brakes hold, train slows and then ... what brakes? After all these years I always wondered if it was real or not ... anyway, yeah ... been there, done that, handed some back. Heh.
OK, so how did that D train get trashed? Was it a lovable prewar version?
I'll give the "semiconductor" a rim shot.:-)
It was an R9 lead car, kissed a 32. The 32 lost. Granted, it was a very slow bump, but the anticlimbers on the 32 bent and the 32 kicked off the rails. Sayonara for me ... even back then, they didn't take things all that kindly and it was determined that it was a bad pipe. Still, they managed to accuse me of imprudent speed (3 MPH) ...
If an R-9 could inflict that sort of damage, imagine what a BMT standard would have done!
Heh. One of the guys back at the barn made that exact comment. In the years since, I've been treated to movies like "Runaway train" and others where a locomotive went right through a caboose like it was the ribbon at the end of a long distance run. I didn't do anything like that - just bent some ridges above the coupler ... but the lead R32 went and turned on the tracks just the same, taking its "wife" with it. Now think about what would happen with some of the more recent tin cans on the railroad - at least the 32 was made of steel.
That happens more often between dispatchers and operating crews.
Lets just hope that the IC wasn't working, after all it was an R68A.
Actually, around Pacific, the male C/R asked something of the T/O over the PA -- it was too loud and too quickly mumbled for me to make it out. I vaguely heard a brief conversation over the intercom (I was in the first car) afterwards. I guess someone was confused or someone lied.
There are student conductors getting qualified at the present time. Since they were in a transverse cab,one conductor was making the announcement from one side of the cab and the other c/r was on the other side.
Ah, makes sense. Any idea which was which? I'd guess the man was a student a bit overenthusiastic to show off his knowledge of the system. (He also spoke a bit too close to the mike.)
I wouldn't chalk the lengthy announcements up to inexperience. There's at least one regular on the bridge lines who regularly gives staggeringly long announcements about possible destinations and cumbersome transfers. (No, he's not the guy who routinely refers to the first stop in Manhattan from Brooklyn as "Guh-raannnnnnnnd Street!")
This must have been that guy, then. Personally, I like them, but I can see how regular commuters might find them cumbersome. (But anything's better than the ones who don't bother making announcements at all, especially when a GO is in effect.)
Sometimes, the B does stop at Dekalb Street, during the evenings. Let's not forget that B train derailment last summer, it happened at DEKALB.
If there is a delay in Brighton Service, Dekalb Master Tower will reroute a B from the bypass track to stop at DeKalb. This will overide the T/O's punch but the tower is supposed to tell the crew of the train via radio. Maybe the C/R's did not hear the radio.
Ah, yes, there did seem to be a delay in Brighton service, at least on the D. I got off the B at 59th and the next D to pull in didn't catch up until Bedford Park Blvd. (we're talking rush hour express service here, of course). I should have stayed on the B and enjoyed the C/R's overdone announcements.
Two C/R's on a train, that's nothing. How about 1o T/O's and 2 TSS's on a train! Yes well it's a school car, but still.
I saw a revenue Q with two T/O's (one was a Plebe >G<) and two TSS's. Once checking the instructor and one riding to work. Now they wished for a 68 with a full cab. Got crowded with everyone leaning into the coffin and crowding the rail-fan window.
Gee, you should have been in my R142 class - 10 TOs, 2 TSSs teaching, 1 TSS in class and 1 District 2 (Lex Ave) Superintendent.
I remember my R142 school car road training. There where 10 T/O's and 21 C/R's doing there road test on the same train going from Westchester SQ to Bowling green. T/O took turns making station stops and C/R's took turns opening up on the wrong side. Also there where 3 T.S.S.
During my R142 training, there was the conductors class and 3 TSS's. The doors were cut out the doors and C/R's open on the platform side. Went from Westchester Sq to City Hall TWICE!!!!!!
How long did you have to wait for that D train?
Oh, I wasn't timing it. How long does it take the B to get from CC to BPB? How long does it take the D to get from CC to BPB? Subtract the first from the second and you have your (approximate) answer.
A C train came through while I was waiting, FWIW.
ATTENTION Subtalkers:
The MTA is doing a Supplemental DEIS on the full-length Second Av subway. The meeting is open to anyone who wants to throw their idead in.
Come to MTA Headquarters, 5th Floor Board Room, Thursday April 19th, 6-8PM. 347 Madison Av, between 44th and 45th Streets.
If you can't come, send written comments to:
MESA Study, MTA New York City Transit
130 Livingston Street, Room 3012D
Brooklyn NY 11201
The MTA hotline is 718-694-5164.
--------------------
I've sent in a response which asks for: a new station at 2nd Av/14th Street with free interchange to the "L" train; tunnel connections to the Rutgers or Cranberry St tunnels or to the N or R train's tunnels to allow Brooklyn service, and a direct service from Queens Blvd. through 41rst Ave/63rd St (the 63rd St Connector),south through the 2nd Av bellmouth, then to the financial district. The bellmouth is already there on the 63rd St line; I want to make sure MTA connects it to the Second Av subway.
This is the second of the two bellmouths; one bellmouth allows 2nd Av trains to head west along 63rd St, and the one I just described would allow trains headed west from 63rd St to go south on 2nd Av.
Anyway, I hope some of you guys write or show up - whatever your opinion is. Please participate.
I'll definitely try to make it.
I'd like to come, except for my firm belief that in the end, after all of the studies are done and the plans drawn, it simply won't be built.
[I'd like to come, except for my firm belief that in the end, after all of the studies are done and the plans drawn, it simply won't be built.]
There is that!
One thing I think is certain -- if enough people scream, it will get built. If only the press hadn't become so wishy-washy about this sort of stuff . . .
Go for it, Josh - All it takes for evil to triumph is for the good to do nothing. Attention Subtalkers BE LIKE JOSH, BE HEARD. Go to the meeting!
Bravo for Josh!
...and he has been here for a loooong time!
Arti
[Bravo for Josh!]
Hey, whudi do? Have to backtrack and look . . .
Whether or not it is actually built, you have an opportunity to participate in the decision-making process. Come for that reason. Even if what you want to say is, "I don't believe you'll ever build it." If that's how you feel, MTA needs to hear it.
I'll write in. It appears they are repeating the same mistake -- minimization.
A mininal plan generates minimal political support. The idea appears to be not to do anything that benefits the Black and Brown people of Brooklyn and the Bronx, creating a Manhattan only line instead. The rest of the state, and the rest of the country, is doing what it can to gang up on NYC politically, and suck even more money out. It won't fly.
Whatever they plan to build, it should be presented as the first phase of a long run plan that benefits just about everyone. Do an EIS for the whole plan. Then tell the NIMBY nuts "sue me" when they demand another EIS for phase II.
To me, a full plan would involve four tracks, and enough connections to fully replace the BMT Broadway line (with systemwide capacity to spare) AND solve the Manhattan Bridge problem. The BMT Broadway Line (which is one of four four-track subways within two blocks in Midtown) could then be hooked up to the commuter railroads (they each get their own set of tracks) for a one-set ride to Lower Manhattan. (I'll spare you the details, but they assume that if the commuter railroads bought 75 foot long cars they would otherwise fit in the BMT, and if the platforms were shaved back B-division cars would fit on the Pelham Line).
If it doesn't benefit the Republican suburbs, it ain't happening.
don't write off Pataki. New York Republicans know they need to get votes where they can If Pataki can pick up 50,000 votes, it will go a long way toward reelecting him. Pataki is in Puerto Rico now working to close the Veiques (sp?) bombing range to curry favor with the Puerto Rican vote in New York, a traditionally Democratic voting bloc. Play the game, Republicans will be more receptive than you think. And Yes I still think Bu$h is a dog, but the Republicans are ready to deal and the Second Ave Subway is badly needed by New York City
[And Yes I still think Bu$h is a dog, but the Republicans are ready to deal and the Second Ave Subway is badly needed by New York City]
Do you think that's true at the national or just the state level? I know Bush is personally indebted to Pataki, but I get the impression that at the national level the Republican attitude is "we aren't going to bother with New York because they're a bunch of weird homosexual third world immigrants who always vote for Democrats though if they really had their way they'd elect Gus Hall," which strikes me as rather self-defeating given that the state is pretty evenly split between the two parties. I think even New York City would react positively to a Republican president who gave some indication of understanding and fighting for the City's needs, just as it has reacted positively to the achievements of a Republican mayor.
The Republicans could pick up all the NYC votes they want by giving NYC a fair share of school aid. But they won't do it. They like the deal the way it is. They get money flowing to their porker pals Upstate and in the suburbs. The Democrats get to feed their Medicaid monster down here in the City. Everyone else gets screwed.
When the Second Avenue Subway comes up, the Republicans will say something like "maybe our hospital payments per Medicaid recipient should be 40 percent above the national average instead of 90 percent higher." And the Democrats will say "how about we ditch the Second Avenue Subway" instead? DEAL!
[To me, a full plan would involve four tracks, and enough connections to fully replace the BMT Broadway line (with systemwide capacity to spare) AND solve the Manhattan Bridge problem. The BMT Broadway Line (which is one of four four-track subways within two blocks in Midtown) could then be hooked up to the commuter railroads (they each get their own set of tracks) for a one-set ride to Lower Manhattan. (I'll spare you the details, but they assume that if the commuter railroads bought 75 foot long cars they would otherwise fit in the BMT, and if the platforms were shaved back B-division cars would fit on the Pelham Line).
If it doesn't benefit the Republican suburbs, it ain't happening.]
Part of the problem is that these studies/projects are too fragmented -- the ESA project doesn't worry about Lower Manhattan Access, the Lower Manhattan project specifically excludes considerations of New Jersey access, etc. And that results in the rejection of superior alternatives and overly expensive projects that never get built.
In reality, using the Broadway BMT for commuter trains would benefit the suburbs big time, with almost immediate results for very little money, unlike the hugely wasteful and unrealistic Access to the Region's Core plan at http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/site/html/status/alternativeaa.html#
But I doubt they'll see that. The good people upstate will say "why should we build a Second Avenue subway when everyone knows Pa Pookle's farm is already financing all them welfare ferners on that #7 train?"
And the project scope will be limited to talking about building a woefully inadequate two track line downtown using the N for express service, even though that's in the wrong place. And then the reporters at the New or the Post will quote the MTA on how nothing can actually be done, because everything's at capacity, and won't think to question that, while the Times ignores the whole issue because it lacks the Significance of the famine in Zambia . . .
But you're right. We need a real plan, so it makes sense to propose one.
(In reality, using the Broadway BMT for commuter trains would benefit the suburbs big time, with almost immediate results for very little money, unlike the hugely wasteful and unrealistic Access to the
Region's Core plan.)
I wouldn't say little money. You would have to build the Second Avenue subway, and swinging MetroNorth around from the Park Avenue tunnels to the Central Park Subway, and swinging the LIRR down 5th Avenue from the Penn tubes into the BMT, aint cheap either. Plus, you'd have to extend the 60th Street line to a terminal, including a station at Columbus Circle.
That said, the plan would be a way for the City to take advantage of the excess capacity between 6th and 8th Avenue by moving it east.
Still, I see the setup coming. The city and state are cutting transit funds, not increasing them. A load of debt has already been dumped on the MTA. So Kalikow goes to Washington for money, and says the Second Avenue won't be built until federal money appears. And then they blame Hillary.
[I wouldn't say little money. You would have to build the Second Avenue subway, and swinging MetroNorth around from the Park Avenue tunnels to the Central Park Subway, and swinging the LIRR down 5th Avenue from the Penn tubes into the BMT, aint cheap either. Plus, you'd have to extend the 60th Street line to a terminal, including a station at Columbus Circle.
That said, the plan would be a way for the City to take advantage of the excess capacity between 6th and 8th Avenue by moving it east.]
I think though that taking Metro North into the Park Avenue tunnel would be about $1 billion -- a few blocks tunneling because of the grade difference. I don't know that I'd take the LIRR from the Penn tunnels, though, because it would effectively cut off Penn Station. Instead, you could take the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel across the park, or you could run it into GCT as planned (for much less money, using the existing tracks) and add a few crosstown stops to the 33rd and 32nd Street tunnels. LIRR would continue to use Penn but with direct access to all N/S subway lines. The 33rd Street Amtrak/NJT line would serve as a Metro North loop, so that Metro North trains would also go across town, and do double duty as a 33rd Street crosstown. And NJT would go downtown via the other two lines.
Meanwhile, LIRR would come in directly to the downtown area via Atlantic Avenue, perhaps with Airtrain shuttle service from JFK. Airtrain would continue through and out to LGA. While it's certainly desireable, I don't think current service levels would make an extension of the 60th Street line necessary. And it could always be dead-ended like the L, a better arrangement I think than the current IND system of complex connections which cost passengers more time than they save.
So I think there are lots of ways you can arrange things for minimal cost, even without a full length Second Avenue subway. In fact, I think they could do almost everything they have to apart from the Second Avenue itself without going very far over the current ESA, LGA, and 42nd Street budgets -- Airtrain from LGA via N, $1 billion, MN connection to the Broadway, $750 million, LIRR connection to GCT using existing tracks and lower level, $1.5 billion, LIRR/Airtrain Atlantic Avenue connection to Broadway line, $1 billion, NJT connection to N, $500 million, electrification of West Side and Hell's Gate lines with a few stations, $500 million, addition of stations on 33rd and 32nd Street tunnels, $1 billion. All with a plethora of new hybrid commuter/subway services for Riverdale, the Central Bronx, the West Side, the East Side, the Montauk Line, the Hell's Gate line/Co Op City, the Brooklyn-Queens freight line, the Rockaway branch.
Then, at a later date, add express tracks to the Second Avenue Subway, connect the #6, build a dedicated line to the Dyre Avenue stub, use the other half of the Broadway line to double commuter train capacity, add a new NJT tunnel (only one necessary rather than two), link GCT and Penn, etc. . . .
I heard that the R149/150/151 subway cars will arrive in 2004-05 to increase service on the IRT, (it's just a 150 order) who thinks what line will they run on? Also these are not enough cars so I think were gonna be single subway cars Who thinks also?
I do not think they will be single cars.
Anyway, the R-142 will increase service. The R-161 will replace the last Redbirds.
The R-160 will replace the 10 R-32s rebuilt by GE (and they really did a bang-up jop), and the R-38, R-40 and R-42.
I'm not with the TA, so don't take what I just said as the Gospel Truth.
All of the Redbirds are scheduled to be replaced by R-142s. It goes like this:
BASE ORDER
Bombardier: 680 R-142
Kawasaki: 400 R-142A
OPTIONS
Bombardier: 200 R-142
Kawasaki: 120 R-142A
CHANGE ORDER
Bombardier: 150 R-142
There are approximately, 1,400 Redbirds, which are being replaced by 1,550 R-142/142As, a net increase of 150 cars.
David
I never heard of the change order. I know the MTA originally planned to replace 1400 Rustbirds with 1400 R-142s.
What the Options order was chage from 200 to 150.
Robert
Not at all. There was an option in the R-142 contract for 150 cars. That option was taken by NYCT. In addition, NYCT (basically) negotiated to change the terms of the original contract to call for 880 cars instead of 680.
David
The MTA has decided that in order to end the current contract number confusion - all contracts beginning with the R-142 will follow the following scheme.
All contracts ending in an even number 6 or less will be designated as IRT.
All contracts ending in an odd number 5 or less will designate a B division car.
Contracts ending with 7 or 8 will be work equipment or if they end with a 9 will be locomotives.
If the sum of all digits inthe contract is an odd number, the cars will come from Bombardier unless there is an 'A' suffix.
If the sum of all digits is even, the cars will have track brakes instead of hand brakes.
The above only holds true for contracts in the 14#, 15#, or 16# series. For contracts R-170 and above add 7 to the contract number and use the guidelines above.
I hope this clears up any confusion the recent posts about future contracts might have caused.
Wow ... sounds like you guys inherited some former NYSDOT folks. My sympathies ... hopefully there will be openings at PASNY or the Thruway Authority soon to take them off yer hands ...
Man........where's my Advil.
I think I'll have to get tatoo's on both hands to remember that!
You are kidding, right?
Dan
Article in Wednesday's Jersey Journal.
(Thanks for the regular posts.)
Well, they could start by running regular-length trains overnight on the 33rd/HOB/JSQ line - it's enough of an inconvenience to stop over in Hoboken (but I can understand that logic), but running a 4-car train makes no sense - tonight around 1 AM it was so crowded at 33rd that not everybody waiting got on the train, and so crowded that some PATH workers who were attempting to bring a pizza (!) to a job site got dumped at Hoboken instead, as the train was so crowded the conductor couldn't make it through the first car to let them out in the tunnel where they needed to go.
When I was on PATH last February, I was pretty impressed with what I saw, both station-wise and otherwise. The trains were not at all crowded, except between NWK and JSQ. Also, I noticed that the train was moving faster than the cars on the highway (even without a traffic jam) between JSQ and NWK, which was very different from what goes on on the other side of the river.
Regarding operating speeds - since late last year there have been a number of permanent and temporary speed restrictions. It looks like the trackage to Newark from Journal Square now has a permanent restriction of 50 or below (I don't recall the exact speed, as I don't get out that way very often) but it used to be marked for 60.
There are a number of long-lasting temporary ones, including a batch of 20's and 30's near the portal. They are apparently there pending rail replacement, and the new rail has been sitting there for a couple of months now. The temporary signs seem to have all fallen over (they were regularly ignored, anyway).
The time signals in the junction going towards 33rd from Newport have been slowed down over the years, from a decent speed to a crawl, to now having 2 full stops.
I just hope that they were waiting for the fare increase and will now complete all these upgrades ASAP.
This was a first - a subway dream with a fellow Subtalker in it!
It involved the IND and a prewar AA train. The fellow Subtalker was (drom roll) Big Ed! He wasn't the motorman or even the conductor. He and I were railfanning and boarded the last car of this particular AA train, thinking it was an 8-car train. It turned out to be a 4-car train, and the front storm door had an R-1/4-style single large window. But the clincher was there was no cab at all! The motorman sat on the left side, fully exposed, much like a bus driver. That gave me a chance to see him work the AMUE brakes, and sure enough, he took a bite of air, watching the air gauge, then moved the handle to lap and release, repeating the steps as needed to stop the train.
No, Ed didn't try to take over operating the train.:-)
Guess I didn't want an asault charge on me or wind up like a certain other party we've discussed on this site lately whose name I don't remember. Haha.
I've had many dreams of riding the old trains over the years, in a few instances I was running. But I won't tie up the site with the details. Thanks for including me in that dream!
Have you ever dreamed you were the conductor again?
Believe it or not, no. Dreamed of being a passenger or motorman often enough. Guess one might as well go for top billing if he's working in a dream!!
is it me?
No it "ain't".I don't know if anybody can top the record for impersonations of the guy I"m thinking of where NYCT is concerned; he has about 20 years' worth beginning as a "motorman" at 15.
On the Brighton line, present day, expresses were running by as mixed consists of R10's and R27's in a shiny, dark-colored paint. I was on the local of R1's with blue/gey interior. I was in the 9th car, stopped at a station, and while the doors were open, my car only tipped half-way over onto the platform and the doors on the other side opened as well.
The night before last, I had a dream I was in (I guess) the 14th St/6th Ave station, hoping to go home to Queens. The train didn't come. Eventually, I walked through the tunnel to whatever the prevous station was (theoretically West 4th, but this is an alternate dream-universe after all.) And there I met my cousin. Apparently he drives subways in this dream, and he gave me an (M) train to drive (?!) I don't remember whether it was an R40M or R42.
That train scared me! I don't know how to drive a train! And when I got towards Queensboro Plaza, I had to cram that train into the elevator to get it onto the el! (?????!!!!!) (Any resemblance to an actual NYCT (M), living or dead, is coincidental.)
Eventually I got to the end of the line and grabbed an R68 (D) train. I think I was hoping to transfer to an (F) somewhere and finnally go home. Anyway, that train really scared me! Even with my cousin's help, I couldn't control it! I had to run into the cab to try to stop at a station, and I didn't get there in time--I couldn't even fugure out which button to press! I missed the station by a mile. I pannicked when I passed some cops, but they barely even noticed.
I woke up and thanked the heavens above that train operations are left to presumably more experienced individuals!
:-) Andrew
Those Hippos are hard to stop!
I knew there'd be jab at the R68 somewhere!
:-) Andrew
I wondered what on earth it would feel like to control a train (especially since I don't even drive). I find it's pretty cool. It's just a matter of holding the controller down, and there's only three points of power, coast, and braking that increases by the pound. The most tricky thing is stopping exactly at a paper thin station car marker, especially given that different cars and car classes brake differently, and station topography (downgrade, upgrade, both, curves which slow you down too much, but you can't take too much power on, etc.) But still, it doesn't take long to adjust to that.
Overall, it's sort of like operating a huge piece of machinery. (which basically it is).
>>>That train scared me! I don't know how to drive a train!<<<
Funny, I hear that every day at work.
>>>And when I got towards Queensboro Plaza, I had to cram that train into the elevator to get it onto the el!<<<
You should consider yourself lucky. Back in the 70's, Motormen had to walk up the stairs with it.
>>>I couldn't control it! I had to run into the cab to try to stop at a station, and I didn't get there in time<<<
Pfft! Damn rookie. First of all you don't run into the cab to stop the train, you just pull the cord and scratch your ass (failing to do both at the same time will cause the train to fart uncontrollably.)
>>>I couldn't even fugure out which button to press!<<<
Ugh. Did you forget everything in school car? Before you enter the station, the button that you press is marked "Side Door Open".
>>>I woke up and thanked the heavens above that train operations are left to presumably more experienced individuals!<<<
I see that you're still dreaming. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..............
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
:D Andrew
Congratulations, you've passed your promotional exam ... welcome to the tower of power, son. :)
And when I got towards Queensboro Plaza, I had to cram that train into the elevator to get it onto the el! (?????!!!!!)
There's an elevator at Queensboro Plaza? In any case, I'm most pleased to learn that my posts played a role in this saga.
Eventually I got to the end of the line and grabbed an R68 (D) train. I think I was hoping to transfer to an (F) somewhere and finnally go home. Anyway, that train really scared me! Even with my cousin's help, I couldn't control it! I had to run into the cab to try to stop at a station, and I didn't get there in time--I couldn't even fugure out which button to press! I missed the station by a mile. I pannicked when I passed some cops, but they barely even noticed.
Don't worry. The R68 moves so slowly that as long as the doors opened at the station, the passengers probably didn't even realize it was still moving.
Because we've been discussing Penn Station capacity lately I thought I'd repost some excerpts from a couple of threads that discuss the issue & helped to form my own opinions on the topic. I found Jim Guthrie's comments particularly interesting.
-------
Re: Metro-North to Penn. Sta.
Posted by Philip Nasadowski on Mon Mar 20 22:16:58 2000, in response to Re: Metro-North to Penn. Sta., posted by Anon_e_mouse on Mon Mar 20 20:52:22 2000
"Amtrak and Penn Station's current tenants are
trying to find ways to increase capacity just to accomodate the routes that currently are served there; bringing in more trains that already have a reasonable terminus would make that effort even more difficult than it already is."
Maybe if Amtrak would stop laying up trains down there, and get rid of the 25 min stops and not terminate everything at Penn, there'd be capacity...
I'm under the impression that when the PRR was running it, it handled more traffic, AND the LIRR stuff without the West Side yard.
I've seen Amtrak trains sitting there at all hours of the day (and on weekends there are plenty just parked there). Ditto (but nowhere near as bad) for NJT. I've never once seen an LIRR train just siiting there.
--------------
> >Most of that unused Penn Station/Hudson River capacity will be utilized by the
> >Montclair Connection trains and the additional trains that will go
online to handle
> >the Seacaucus Transfer passengers.
I've seen no plans regarding Montclair Connection & Secaucus that would even bring NYP **close** to capacity. I **have** seen plans that might bring it to or past current management's ability to run the place.
Cheers,
Jim
--------------
Isaac wrote:
> I thought that the problem is that Penn and Jamaica Stations are at full
> capacity.
Not really. Both suffer from management problems, and planners who seem to see their jobs as forever self-perpetuating as long as nothing is done.
There's plenty more room with monor changes at both places, although Penn Station needs far better pedestrian flow.
Cheers,
Jim
-------------
Jim NY wrote:
> While Penn Station as a whole is not at capacity, the East River Tunnels are
> quite at capacity during the peak of the peaks. The LIRR is kind of
dependent
> upon the at-capacity East River tunnels to get to the under-capacity Penn
> Station. Therefore, as far as the LIRR is concerned, it's not terribly wrong to
> say that Penn Station is at capacity for the LIRR.
>
There are far too many conflicting movements at the Penn Station tunnel portals to even begin to claim the tunnels operate at capacity -- both morning and afternoon.
There are problems with platforms that don't clear fast enough to unload morning trains fast enough that trains don't end up stopping in the tunnels (the 'capacity' of a stopped tunnel is 0); a 1910 switch layout with a 15 mph speed limit, a penchant for conflicting moves that block efficient use of tunnels (including goofiness at the former "F" and Harold -- why are Port Wash trains **ever** on Line 1????), and of course, the signal headway ought to be 2-minutes.
Mornings present challenges because there are so many places out on the line where delays can screw things up miles away, but there isn't much excuse in the afternoon commission hours.
I would strongly urge anyone who believes Penn Station or its tunnels to LI operate at capacity to actually spend an evening or two at the east end of the track 15/16 platform and watch the actual operation. It is appalling.
Cheers,
Jim
------------
John asked:
> Do you care to provide some facts to back up your claim that mismanagement is
> preventing Penn Station to be used at full capacity. As far as I know, NJT and
> Amtrak are installing a new signalling system that will increase capacity.Can
> you point to some specifics regarding what can be done to increase
capacity
> further?
As I've suggested -- why not watch from the east end of the platform between tracks 15=16 some night?
Seriously -- the controlling feature on the west end of NYP is the 15 mph scissors crossover; that places the effective limit on tunnel capacity. There's no reason for the track layout from NJ to be oriented for long distance trains anymore -- redo it with 45 mph ladders tracks 1-16 only; reverse the Sunnyside loop to eliminate conflicting movements that block use of Line 1 everytime an Amtrak train comes in from Sunnyside or north. Build an NJT storage yard up the West Side line in the former 6-track section north of NYP and get equipment moves out of the East River Tunnels; persuade Amtrak to quit using the platform tracks for equipment layup; 2-minute (not 2 1/2) tunnel headways (European-style/former #7-style 100 second headways is probably more than modern American workers could handle safely and competently so we'll skip that ); make sure NJT uses MU's -- locomotives take up precious passenger space -- each loco-hauled train means more than 100 fewer seats for riders on every such train. Don;t take up tunnel space with "short" trains -- All commission-hour NJT trains are the maximum platform length; re-do Harold so Amtrak trains need not stop the entire LIRR moving from Line 1 to the Hell Gate Line; rework Sunnyside leads so that trains need not be moving at less than 30 mph until clear of main tracks.
Obviously, better passenger ingress/egress is needed -- both to and from the platforms and subways; restore the Gimbels passageway with a moving sidewalk. Subway shuttles from the lower level at 42nd to move passengers downtown. Ditto on the IRT. More stairways; more escalators; get the PO project moving. Get platform dwell times down to 6 minutes.
That should start some discussion .
Any change costs money these days, since 17 consultants have to get their share of the pot. But I would guess the most expensive items include the track layout, and NJT storage yard, the 6th Ave passageway, signal changes on headways, and reworking the tracks in LIC.
But all totalled -- these projects are small and incremental and are buit a fraction of the cost of adding tunnels and other such schemes (some of which need the same changes to make them work anyway, such as passenger ingress/egress).
Cheers,
Jim
-------------
Lee wrote:
> I don't think Penn Sta has any additional capacity, indeed, they're
> trying to reduce the load on Penn Sta by getting rid of some LIRR
> trains, and not replace them with anything else.
Don't get me started on the lousy management at NYP that says the station is "at capacity." Clearly it is not, although there are other problems that prevent the station from being used to capacity -- everything from not enough stairways and street access (to be alleviated somewhat by the new NJT Concourse and the Moynahan Station west of 8th Avenue), to mistakes made in redesigning the signal system, to the lack of interest in fixing the track layout to accommodate faster operations (the capacity on the NJ side is mainly determined by the 15 mph scissors crossover at the mouth of the North River Tunnel).
As for the replies about third rail shoes, let us remember that the FL9s were built with shoes that could run to GCT or NYP -- and they **did** from 1957 until Penn Central took over the NH in 1968.
OTOH, one has to remember that the competence of modern design might
preclude such advances as the FL9-type third rail shoe especially on the LIRR; after all, the LIRR has burned up three of its new Dual Mode Diesels with a shoe design for simple over-running third rail.
But then the LIRR has been known to leave a train sitting on track 19 from 4:35 until 5:15 pm, with **no one** (except angry riders) that no crew has shown up by scheduled departure time at 4:49 -- some capacity issue, if you ask me.
Cheers,
Jim
------------
James wrote:
> You're right - there are 21 tracks at Penn Station, and it's not so much the
> lack of tracks as it is the lack of getting to them. There are only two Hudson
> River tunnels, one track for each direction, which is what holds things up.
There are more than two tracks in -- counting non-tunnel tracks -- no reason why NJT can't build a layup yard along the ex-NYC West Side line, freeing up both East and North River Tunnel slots. This also eliminates conflicting movements -- which stops the station dead (same as LIRR trains moving from 17 to Line 1 -- then crossing back to Port Wash at Harold -- and lots of other movements that stop the East River tunnels cold at both ends).
> Then there are four East River tunnels, which have to handle LIRR, Amtrak, and
> NJT trains, which becomes congested. I read that new signals between Newark
> and NYP are supposed to allow for tighter headways through the Hudson River-
> the most important thing .though, is better access to the platforms. NJT is
> dangerously overcrowded at peak times, and ridiculously crowded at off peak
> times. Hopefully with the new terminal they will be able to space people out
But there's no capacity issue at off-peak times at all -- just sloth on the part of NJT. Current weekend patterns that include a once-an-hour conflicting moves on M&E trains at NYP simply indicate the level of competence of all concerned.
> The retractable shoes weren't that reliable, though, and were >eventually replaced with fixed ones. Though, I can't believe that >in this day and age
> someone can't design a retractable shoe that works. The cost to >retrofit all
> the trains with this would be high, though, and problems would inevitably develop.
But they worked for years, until the NH couldn't keep up with the
maintenance.
For that matter, the BRT and LIRR had shoes that automatically changed position "on the fly" on the Crescent Street connection in the days when the LIRR was running to Chambers Street. The question is not whether a dual-service shoe can be built -- but whether or not the dual-service shoe could switch from one mode to the other "on the fly" -- allowing through MU service, say, from Hempstead to Harmon.
Of course, a decent terminal at LIC and a decent terminal at Secaucus would mean that lots of trains (including Amtrak) would originate at each -- and that NYP would be a 3-4 minute dwell time intermediate stop -- without brake tests, switching, layups using platform tracks and all the rest of the current nonsense. I know there are plans to build a new LIC station on the LIRR -- but the plans I've seen from Queens Beep Claire Shulman's office -- and alluded to in the LIRR's East Side plans are totally incompetent in scope or imagination.
Thanks for posting those.
I personally think it would be helpful for Amtrak to have "parking spots" for trains which do not take up platform space and do not require movement across river tunnels. The LIRR has such a place - the West Side Yard. Is it large enough to accommodate Amtrak as well? Can we give a couple of tracks some catenary (if the yard doesn't have any now)?
[I personally think it would be helpful for Amtrak to have "parking spots" for trains which do not take up platform space and do not require movement across river tunnels. The LIRR has such a place - the West Side Yard. Is it large enough to accommodate Amtrak as well? Can we give a couple of tracks some catenary (if the yard doesn't have any now)?]
I think the problem is that Amtrak trains come from the wrong direction. They'd have to backtrack through yard A, and that would probably slow down service. Also, I'm not sure if there's enough capacity when the yard is filled with LIRR trains. So the solution would be a new yard in New Jersey.
>>Retractable shoes.
Maybe I remember this wrong, but don't the Genesis engines have retractable third rail shoes that can accomodate over- and under-running third rails?
-- Kirk
[Maybe I remember this wrong, but don't the Genesis engines have retractable third rail shoes that can accomodate over- and under-running third rails?]
I did a search and here's what I found:
RE: Has Amtrak Thought Of This?
Posted by: Jaap (asterix@ct1.nai.net) on Tue, Feb 13, 01 at 16:03
The P32's are now going trough Pennstation and run on the LIRR third rail, they run in shoe up mode on Metro-North with shoes not even near third rail.
. . . so I gather the answer is that the shoes are retractable, but don't work with under-running rail.
If you want an NJT Layup yard they should just use the underutilized Yard A on the south side.
Furthermore trackspeed w/in Penn Station will never be more than 15 or 20 mph. The layout is too complex with too many tight curves and platforms for medium speed. Not to mention you'd have to rework the whole cab signaling system (currently the whole station gets away w/ giving a no-code).
I don't know what your problem with the scissors crossover is. All Penn Station turnouts are 15/20 mph and the scissors crossover is the point where two converging ladder tracks cross.
I think the PS layout should be left alone. It is the Standard Station Layout of the World and should be left along as a work of art. All the trackwork should be preserved in it's 1910 state as a historical landmark.
If you must do something the best way to increase capacity is to eliminate the Track 18 gauntlet track and add a 22nd track where the Wide Platform currently is.
[If you want an NJT Layup yard they should just use the underutilized Yard A on the south side.]
How would you get the trains into the yard without tying up the station? From what I can tell, you'd have to backtrack into the yard. Why not send the NJT trains on into Long Island and use them for reverse LIRR service?
[Furthermore trackspeed w/in Penn Station will never be more than 15 or 20 mph. The layout is too complex with too many tight curves and platforms for medium speed. Not to mention you'd have to rework the whole cab signaling system (currently the whole station gets away w/ giving a no-code).]
Didn't they already install high speed switches off the tunnel tracks? It seems to me that if trains could operate at high speed even part way into the network, speed would not be an impediment to full station utilization. As to cab signals, it would be a lot cheaper to rework the system than to build a new tunnel or station extension.
[I don't know what your problem with the scissors crossover is. All Penn Station turnouts are 15/20 mph and the scissors crossover is the point where two converging ladder tracks cross.]
I didn't write the thread, but looking at the track map I can see why you wouldn't want to use that scissors crossover -- it must tie trains up something fierce.
[I think the PS layout should be left alone. It is the Standard Station Layout of the World and should be left along as a work of art. All the trackwork should be preserved in it's 1910 state as a historical landmark.]
I like the layout too, but we're talking perhaps $10 billion worth of infrastructure underutilization here.
What I don't see is the need for any crossovers or conflicting movements at all. As far as I can tell, that's not a matter of layout, but of utilization. Trains should enter the station, let off their passengers, and leave without funny stuff.
[If you must do something the best way to increase capacity is to eliminate the Track 18 gauntlet track and add a 22nd track where the Wide Platform currently is.]
Isn't track 18 the scissors crossover that Jim was complaining about?
Anyway, it strikes me as fairly astounding that a station with 21 tracks can't handle a 4 + 2 tunnel arrangement. Assuming NJT and Amtrak trains travel through the Queens tunnel and a conservative 30 tph per track, you get 120 tph. Divide by 21 and you get less than 6 tph per platform, or allowing for headway at 20 mph a 9 minute dwell time, which should be plenty of time to load or unload the train. I'd think they'd be figuring out how to get the tunnels up to 45 tph at this point, but what do they actually achieve now? 20 tph/track?
[Why not send the NJT trains on into Long Island and use them for reverse LIRR service? ]
What about combining LIRR and NJT to throughrunning service. And then add a station around Park Avenue for ESA.
Arti
[What about combining LIRR and NJT to throughrunning service. And then add a station around Park Avenue for ESA.]
Only problem I can see is that it would make that $4.3 billion 10 year Grand Central access project, er, completely unnecessary . . .
The ESA EIS did examine some proposals that added stations to the existing tunnels and they came up with these objections:
Hey guys, we'd have to build an Amtrak bypass and shore up some buildings (Why? Just drop one NJT/LIRR train from the new service and let Amtrak run straight through)
Hey guys, we couldn't get the trains through fast enough (yes you could, if you designed them for subway-style loading, & kept in mind that each station you add reduces loading time at any one station)
In fairness, I think you may be oversimplifying the problem here.
Actually NJT planning studies have considered PAS station.
IMO don't get why not. Les local could be "beefed up", Everyone would prefere more frequent service (one has to opt for either GC or Penna)
Where's the problem?
Arti
[In fairness, I think you may be oversimplifying the problem here.]
In some sense, there's no question that I am. You can't just wave your hands and make yards/stops/etc. appear. But the same could be said of the official study assumptions -- in fact, if I have any argument with them, it's that *they* are oversimplified. The trick I think is to find the truly basic elements that make most complex problems simple. They're usually there if you look hard enough!
Example from recent discussion: 4 LIRR mainline tracks + 4 tunnels + 2 NJ tracks
A few Amtrak Trains
More than a few NJ trains but they're easily made compatible with LIRR & go in the opposite direction
LIRR needs 3 tracks coming in two going out
Penn has 21 tracks and platforms
You could go endlessly into detail here, but the thing that jumped out at me is that the existing tunnels and station should be able to handle the complete capacity of the LIRR. The question then became why they weren't. The details then were important only insofar as they explained what had to be fixed, and not surprisingly, most of those things turned out to be bureacratic or political inertia rather than real problems, viz,
--Commuter trains with insufficient doors to load quickly
--Cross switching in the yards
--Amtrak using station as a yard and leaving parts of track unmaintained
--NJT running trains that are too short
--Amtrak, NJT and LIRR not interoperating
--Need for some new yard capacity
--Not enough staircase capacity for New Jersey Transit (currently being rectified)
--Speed through the yard
--New Farley station may lock in a bad arrangement
But if you had just looked at those details without first making the simplifying observation, you would have no idea what their significance was!
True enough. I really do hope we'll see improvements over the next ten years.
/*If you want an NJT Layup yard they should just use the underutilized Yard A on the south side. */
But that requires changing ends. Bad thing at a non-terminal.
/*Furthermore trackspeed w/in Penn Station will never be more than 15 or 20 mph.*/
Debateable.
/* The layout is too complex with too many tight curves and platforms for medium speed.*/
But there are unused sections (noteably the northwest side) that are just sitting there. Hell, there's a PC passenger car still sitting down there. Clear out all that rusted track, and redo the tracks to straighten out the platforms. and cut the redundant parts (noteably track 17 on the east side) of it.
/* Not to mention you'd have to rework the whole cab signaling system (currently the whole station gets away w/ giving a no-code). */
So what?
/*I don't know what your problem with the scissors crossover is. All Penn Station turnouts are 15/20 mph and the scissors crossover is the point where two converging ladder tracks cross. */
Beats me. They tend to be bad form, maybe?
/*I think the PS layout should be left alone.*/
I don't. Times change.
/* It is the Standard Station Layout of the World and should be left along as a work of art.*/
*gag* It was done at a time when:
a) There was no northern connection to Boston.
b) The LIRR's main terminal was in Brooklyn.
c) There was no commuter service from Penn to NJ.
d) The NEC as we know it didn't exist.
e) The LIRR as a commuter railroad was in its infancy.
f) Manhattan wasn't *the* destination for everyone.
g) Nobody was sure if that electric stuff would even work on a large scale.
It was fine for 1910, but times have changed a LOT, and it's outdated.
/* All the trackwork should be preserved in it's 1910 state as a historical landmark.*/
Why? It's obsolete. Hell, even GCT's stuff is obsolete - lots of tracks that are unused. But that's a better situation to have.
/*If you must do something the best way to increase capacity is to eliminate the Track 18 gauntlet track and add a 22nd track where the Wide Platform currently is. */
I'd increase capacity by streamlining the yards for *commuter* service. They're not designed for it now.
Of course, as long as Amtrak owns it, it'll be left to rot...
>But that requires changing ends. Bad thing at a non-terminal.
You employ a hostler or two who sit down at the other end of the platform and hop into the end cab to yard the train if necessary.
>Debateable.
Name a terminal with hi-speed track farms.
>So what?
It's a pain in the patoot and adds complexity where failures need to be kept to a minimum.
>I don't. Times change.
Not if we complain loudly enough.
>I'd increase capacity by streamlining the yards for *commuter* service. They're not designed for it now.
The West Side Yard works pretty well for commuter service. But you're right it would be nice if NJT could access Yard E from tracks 1-4.
But there are unused sections (noteably the northwest side) that are just sitting there. Hell, there's a PC passenger car still sitting down there. Clear out all that rusted track, and redo the tracks to straighten out the platforms. and cut the redundant parts (noteably track 17 on the east side) of it.
The Northwest side is the LIRR WSY access, don't you mean the Southwest side? They do need to clear that out and get all the yard tracks open again. I don't know about straightening the platforms. I think the deformedness is cool also it's the only way they'll fix.
/*You employ a hostler or two who sit down at the other end of the platform and hop into the end cab to yard the train if necessary.*/
Costs money to employ them. Also still clogs things up.
/*Name a terminal with hi-speed track farms.*/
New Haven, it's 30 -40 through the interlocking south of the station, and 40 on 2 tracks, and I believe 25 on the rest.
/*Not if we complain loudly enough.*/
Times change. Deal with it.
/*The Northwest side is the LIRR WSY access, don't you mean the Southwest side?*/
No, the north side.
/*They do need to clear that out and get all the yard tracks open again. I don't know about straightening the platforms. I think the deformedness is cool also it's the only way they'll fix.*/
The deformedness is damm annoying. Not to mention dangerous. But, that's the PRR for you =) *duck*
New Haven, it's 30 -40 through the interlocking south of the station, and 40 on 2 tracks, and I believe 25 on the rest.
I have observed the cab signal displays in all trains that pass through the station, Amtrak and Metro-North, and they are always showing Restricting (20mph). I have also never observed a train traveling at anything more than 20mph w/in the New Haven complex.
No, the north side.
Well then the south side must by really scuzzy caise the north side always looks fine to me.
The deformedness is damm annoying. Not to mention dangerous. But, that's the PRR for you =)
Look at the NYP diagram. It is the only way the stuff would fit. It's not like they went out of their way to make things non-straight.
I've been on a few NH trains that have entered /left New haven faster than 20mph. I'd like to see the latest timetasble/rulebook, but I'm pretty sure that it's faster than 20 on at least tracks 1 and 3.
I heard from a friend of mine who got the word from a TA worker:
The R142's that were long overdue for the #2 line are being pulled almost indefinitely from service because of faulty brakes on those trains. First, I hear that the electronic systems were faulty. Then, the prerecorded announcements were malfunctioning on many of the trains. THEN, I hear about faulty brake systems on the cars. What's next? Ooooh, the doors won't close because the computers shut down? Boy, who's to blame? The TA for ordering such junk? The manufacturer, Bombardier, for not building these cars the way the Kawasakis were made?
The only R142 sighting so far was one train that was running up the 2 line during testing. My only R142A sighting is this morning, #7261-7270, on the 6 line.
If this is what will happen in the TA, then what are the R143's, the R160's, and so on, going to be like? The same thing or worse?
I bet the transit authorities in other major cities are laughing at us for not having great new trains. (hahahaha, NYC got junk hahahahah) I can hear them now!
This is ridiculous!
I hope the TA can get their act together. PLEASE!
CWalNYC
Makes me nostalgic for the late '70s, when the R46 disaster was filling the pages of NYC's papers. Seems the MTA and NYCTA never learn. Stick with what works, and forget about those high-tech gadgets.
Redbirds forever, baby.
Stick with what works, and forget about those high-tech gadgets.
Bah. That Thomas Edison is crazy. Give me gas lamps anytime!
How many R-142's and R-142A's are on the property?.
If they been testing the R-142's for a year or so,and the cars
are having all kinds of problems, then why does th TA keeps
accepting these cars?
Redbirds keep ruling!!
Yeah, let's just forget about the R40, R40M, R42, R44, R46, R62 and R68. Yeah, you're right. Those old crusty redbirds do it ALL!
Because they have no choice but to accept them. They have stopped maitanence on the Redbirds so they are falling apart faster than ever. Plus, many new things need to be broken in and don't work 100% right as soon as they come. Even cars have the first 1000 mile break-in. Sit tight, they'll prove themself soon and be running.
They have stopped maitanence on the Redbirds so they are falling apart faster than ever? Question for all ............
Do you think that " stopping maitanence on any rolling stock would be stopped ? Sit tight, they'll prove themself soon and be running. ??
This confuses the hell out of me! For example to wait how long for the new pieces of junk to Sit tight, they'll prove themself soon and be running. ??
How much longer will the wait be ? How many years from now ?? Meanwile the older running stock gets zero maitanence??
So the entire rail transit riding public rides at thier own risk with zero maitanence subway cars ??
This is common practice when new cars have been ordered. In a way, it makes sense. OTOH, it can jump up and bite.
ok but it made no sense to do zero work on any rail vehicle while somebody sits and waits for the new to come in & then
how long the wait ?? etc...etc... what does OTOH mean ??
OTOH = On the other hand
That's why the Redbirds must be scrapped. They're actually 3x more dangerous than any other car currently in operation. While the R142s have "breaking problems," messed up announcements (whoooo, that's a danger), and flickering lights (when it happens on the Rustbirds it's okay, it's called nostalgia), the Rustbirds get no maintenence probably except minor repairs to keep them from disintergrating on curves. Those are the REAL pices of JUNK and I'll be glad when I see that banner subject header: FIRST 150 REDBIRDS PULLED TO BE SCRAPPED AND SUNK!!!!!
maitanence? zero none done on any redbird at all ?? why are they not derailing crashing into stations walls etc ??
running into other cars etc ??
I DID say MINOR REPAIRS!!!!! And Train Dude stated that something is being done to keep these tin cans rolling. I still believe they are quite dangerous in thier aged state.
thats not what a motorman told me !! i was told they still are looked at & serviced etc..
Actually, a 2 train derailed a few weeks back.
ONE derailment ?? thats all ?? & not like the infamous melbrone train wreck ??.......... come on man !!!!
Ummm ... they are ... of course what we're waiting for is one of them to take a jug handle and do somersaults like the money train in that movie of the same name. Shouldn't be much longer. :)
that wasnt nice !!
just heard from worker at E.180th/unionport, the R-142's are soon to done with modification of breaks. the first modified sets will be tested then put into revenue service late april to mid may, which is their goal. keep you people posted if i get any more info.
Make sure you say "Brakes" instead of "Breaks" otherwise those Anti-R142/R142A people will have a field day.
I can't speak for the state of the R-142 program. I will say that maintenance has not been stopped on the Redbirds. Anyone who was at the rodeo this past Saturday, saw R-36s in the overhaul shop. Statements to the contrary are irresponsible at best and just give the salaamites a chubby.
That's what I heard from a T/O on the 6 Line a while back. Ehhh, for authenticity's sake of the news, I'll keep my mouth quiet till I speak to a real pro.
Older is better.
I still use WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS about half the time since MS Word and anything newer than WP 5.1 is a pain to use.
WELL SAID!!!
POORLY SAID!!!!
Your failure to use Word 97 or 2000 (or even 95) is not a sign of it being harder to use, it's because you're a luddite or you're just unadaptable.
I find it harder and more complicated to do certain functions in Word than in WP for DOS. The files can be converted rather easily so it isn't a big problem.
And think of all those macro viruses and worms you're missing out on. "I Love you", "Melissa" ... put me down in the Luddite Corps too. I compose in plain old ASCII and if I need it pretty, drag it into WP8 for printing. Word? Heh. I've got a viewer for it on one of our isolated lab rats ...
I must be getting old. I remember when the word "progress" meant "improvement." :)
Microsoft's word processorss try to correct spelling as words are typed and you have to force it to leave theatre, centre, etc. alone. English, according to Microsoft, as she is write and mangled. Quite annoying, that.
Also, what about the new virus which can execute under Windows and Linux? That's an interesting creation, to say the least.
-Robert King
Try "unable to follow directions" on that bad boy. As to the "Linux virus" what they did was embed pure assembly language into a module that will cause any Intel CPU to run it ... which only proves the smarts of what we went and did with our own Linux servers here at our company - they all boot from a CDROM ... try to change files with that kind of arrangement. Unfortunately, Microsoft designed windows in such a way that you can't do that since it just LOVES to write to files that shouldn't need to be written to at all. There ARE ways to protect Linux at least and of course the viruses won't run on other CPUs such as RISC chips ... but to compare Linux to Outbreak Express ... well ...
Is that how that cross virus was done? I suspected that may be the case but I wasn't sure. Apple is the only company which makes consumer oriented computers that can start directly off a CD. I believe it's possible to do it with an Amiga too, but I've never done it myself or seen it done.
It's possible with almost any modern PC too.
Very useful feature. Although not as useful as power on by keyboard.
And I agree, Macs once blew away PCs, but now they can't come up with any cool new features and end up copying from PCs (the tables have turned, right mouse button anyone?).
Here's some detail on it:
http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2702054,00.html
Microsoft's word processorss try to correct spelling as words are typed and you have to force it to leave theatre, centre, etc. alone. English, according to Microsoft, as she is write and mangled. Quite annoying, that.
You see, that's another problem with unadaptibility. If you had figured out how to set up English (UK) as your default language, then this wouldn't be a problem.
From the Tools menu, point to Language and choose Select Language. Pick your language and click the Default button.
And think of all those macro viruses and worms you're missing out on. "I Love you", "Melissa" ... put me down in the Luddite Corps too.
Do you also stay indoors 24/7 for fear of getting human disease?
Give me a break!
Again, all that says is that your unadaptable. Word 97 (I'm not going to waste my money on new MS-Office software, I only get it free) may look daunting with all of its buttons and menu options, but it sure as hell isn't more difficult to use that anything older.
Spellchecking for one is better.
Or is it maybe an affinity for older OSes based on Dirty Odorous Shit?
Who cares? It's a perfectly functional word processor. From my experience, WordPerfect 5.1 on DOS 3.3 crashed far less frequently than any of the more recent word processors running on Windows 9x these days.
In the 7 years I've used Word on my own computer, it has never crashed once.
And then, I don't use Windows 9x anymore, so even if it does crash more often on Windows 9x, I don't care (which it doesn't since I had it on Windows 98 too).
And even if it does crash, a Windows crash with a modern word processor is much less painful than a DOS crash.
Also, make sure you have of those update patches from...
officeupdate.microsoft.com
redbirds on the go baby. first set to be scrapped august 2001
Please guys try to take photos as much as posible.
If true, this would be unfortunate.
But you're getting information third and fourth hand. Things can easily get lost in the translation.
Unless and until you have reliable information (and I'm not saying you're wrong) maybe judgment should be reserved.
kawasaki R-142A's are pulled again because of door problems and jammed up mixed up announcements. thats why only one is running as of today. bombardier R-142's are out just for the breaking problem only. you want to talk crappy? they should've built the Kawasaki's a little better. they sound and run like they are going to fall apart. bombardiers are solid. Kawasaki's recieve more problems. every time one goes into service, at the end of the week it is pulled. when the bombardiers were running, they ran and ran week in week out. until notice breaking ability that wasn't up to mta standards. how do i know? i was there day in day out catching each one. counting how many were in service and how many left service at what rate.
I would rather be on a train that I can't hear the announcements on *coughs*R40*coughs* than being on a train that CAN'T STOP!!!!!
the train can stop its just that it takes longer. thats the point that everybody is missing. IT CAN STOP. IT JUST TAKES LONGER THAN ITS SUPPOSED TO. this is common sense that the rapid transit cars didn't quite meet that particularspecification. of the mta.
the train can stop its just that it takes longer. thats the point that everybody is missing. IT CAN STOP. IT JUST TAKES LONGER THAN ITS SUPPOSED TO. this is common sense that the rapid transit cars didn't quite meet that particularspecification. of the mta. in other words its not a real problem.
the train can stop its just that it takes longer. thats the point that everybody is missing. IT CAN STOP. IT JUST TAKES LONGER THAN ITS SUPPOSED TO. this is common sense that the rapid transit cars didn't quite meet that particularspecification. of the mta. in other words its not a real problem however it must be corrected to meet specification.
I suspect that whatever construction problems, if it is poor construction that is the problem, there may be with the Bombardier 142s that it could easily be overcome if the production of the 142s was moved from New York state to Thunder Bay, where they've had much more experience producing subway cars with technology similar to that found on the 142. The production capacity at Thunder Bay will be available to produce R142s in a few months with the last T1s are sent out.
-Robert King
all T1's are sent out already the last ones were sent out late 1999 early 2000. due to politics and location, the bombardier R-142's were built in plattsburgh instead of thunder bay. remember politics always wins over common sense and thinking. but just because something from somewhere else doesn't mean its better than the other.
The last T1 delivery will be in September. You are thinking of the original order only, not the extended order which was intended to replace the H4 cars which will now be kept in order to provide an increased level of service.
my mistake i meant to post what you said. however they are too early on killing the hawker 4's
The 4s are not being retired yet because they found that they are going to need 80 more subway cars, especially after the Shepperd line opens next year, so at least some if not all of the H4s are going to be rebuilt.
At one point there was an incredibly ambitious and silly plan to order yet even more T1s and retire the H5s (which have just been rebuilt) in addition to the H4s (as yet unrebuilt despite being older because they were supposed to have been retired instead) which didn't come to pass because there wasn't money available to buy that many new T1s.
That brings me to my next point:
The most underfunded public transportation system on the continent has just announced fare increases to cover their costs. I think that this is forcing their recovery of operating costs from fares rate up into the 84 to 86 percent range with the balance of 14 to 16 percent being paid by the city of Toronto. No federal or provincial money is at work here.
As far as I know, a transit system earning back more than 80% of its costs from fares is unheard of outside of Europe, and definately is a statistical anomoly when compared against the other transit systems found in car obsessed North America.
-Robert King
Why is the Sheppard Line being built? It seems to me a modern day version of New York's G train, in which it's passengers would have to transfer to get anyplace useful.
It is supposed to be a crosstown subway line in the north end of Toronto. It is intended to be faster and much less crowded than the buses which presently run on Sheppard which require a transfer to the existing Yonge subway anyways. Changing trains is not a big deal; people already do that between the Yonge-University-Spadina and the Bloor-Danforth lines anyways.
-Robert King
[The manufacturer, Bombardier, for not building these cars the way the Kawasakis were made?]
Or the TA for not buying from Kawasaki? I'm getting deja vu here. Is Kawasaki out of business? Why can't the bidding process include a weighting factor that takes into account previous experiences with the manufacturer and (to keep shoddy companies from spawning new front companies, something I understand they do to defeat the current process) principals and managers?
to go straight to the point, all what you have said doesn't mattter. the ta is looking for a contractor to build the mass order at high quality and at a rapid pace. kawasaki couldn't do it so they had to give it to bombardier. they are able to build mass quantities at a short time, plus, their network is in our back yard instead of overseas. also kawasaki's quality would be affected if they were to take on a large quantity. look at the R-142A's, they were able to bring them out but they are still shoddy in build quality, and they cause problems every other week. if they were to take on a mass order, they would be screwed.
But, the Bombardier seem to be much far worse than the Kawasaki. The Kawasaki didn't make the news because of braking problems. Besides, I think Kawasaki has many other car orders on their hands with less plants than Bombardier.
I am sorry but Kawasaki's build quality is quite superior to Bombardier's. I have ridden both sets of R142's and the Kawasaki's are a much better product. The ride quality is nicer and the overall feel of the car is just better. And put it this way we are already screwed with Bomabardier having the lions share of the car order which I have said is a mistake from day one! Bombardier is not doing well financially anyway, they can't even build their planes or jetski's either.
Peace!
DaShawn Pretlow
www.transitworld.org
From a Motorman I talk to often, I was considering the differences in the discipline in the Subway VS the Railroad, because its something I am thinking about as I began to pursue the Career I have always wanted. Anyway he thinks I should work for the Long island Railroad or Metro North because New York City Transit disciplines unfairly. He says you are Guilty until proven innocent. However in the Railroad Systems, I hear that the FRA will take your license for one mistake. I guess they have Zero Tolerance for Locomotive Engineers making mistakes. Anyone have any ideas on which one I should choose based on this predicament?
Also the Subway has the 25/55 retirement rule, but the Railroad has the retire at 65 rule. Whoa! Thats a long time!
Speaking of the LIRR specifically, hiring on is much more difficult. I know someone (a woman, as it happens) who who passed various tests for LIRR engineer, dragged out over many months, and has more to come. Plus you must not only be FRA licensed, you must requalify periodically (I think every 3 years). This applies to Conductors also.
Consider that there are not that many engineer jobs on the commuter roads as opposed to the subway. Lots fewer trains = lots fewer jobs.
I don't know about the discipline, or atribtrariness of it. I do know that the LIRR is very strict about "service failures," which you could define as not working when and where they want you to. Have a certain number of these in a certain time frame (I think it's three in a year) and you're fired. Period. And the LIRR is not civil service.
Examples of what they expect of you? If you're sick (and not in the hospital), you don't call in sick. You show up for duty and go out sick then. No putting a clothespin on your nose and calling from outside Shea Stadium.
Another example happened to a conductor friend of mine whose wife is also a conductor. They arranged their shifts (after more than 15 years on the road) so that one would always be home for the kids. Well, one day he shows up before a Jewish holiday (when they run extra early trains) and is told a couple of hours is adding to his run to work one of these. "It's not on the timetable," he says. "Sorry, the timetable department screwed up--all the other Jewish holidays are in the timetable." Lucky for him, he has family nearby who could see after the kids.
Maybe our subway T/Os can come up with comparables. I don't know. But consider that lots of T/Os and engineers manage to finish out their careers and get their pensions, no problem. Do you think that there's some reason you in particular might attract discipline problems?
There are other considerations, too. If you think you might like to go to other cities later in your life, an engineer's license will give you entree to other railroads. Some of us crave the boomer's life.
Another thought if that if you're an engineer or conductor on the LIRR you'll likely be in that position your entire working life, on the road. On the subway, you could look for promotion to the tower.
If it were me, I'd go for the job I want to do more, the other issues nothwithstanding.
Examples of what they expect of you? If you're sick, you don't call in sick. You show up for duty and go out sick then.
That *is* how to run a railroad. Still, if it were that way I wouldn't like to work as an engineer. Which makes me wonder, which one is easier: do you (1) book on a few more spare man for such coverage, or do you (2) pay the engineers enough so they don't call in sick like that? I'm thinking maybe (1) is a better option, but it does equate to overall lower pay. I don't think anyone could be expected to be 100% infallable. The LIRR would be sorry if one of their engineers book on dead tired, and crash a train. Sure, they can fire someone, but only after several millions worth of damages.
There are other considerations, too. If you think you might like to go to other cities later in your life, an engineer's license will give you entree to other railroads. Some of us crave the boomer's life.
I'd say that's a big plus. I would love to drive LIRR for a few years, Metra a few more, go work for UP for a bit and maybe retire driving Amtraks. Unfortunately, I am neither an American citizen nor am I an engineer. Being an FRA engineer means you can pretty much drive anywhere provided they let you learn the road. That's one big plus. If they fire you on the LIRR, go work for Maine Central.
Since planning is the most effective tool in management, the first option is the best.
Ah Lexcie, but you live in Scotland. London Underground in the south is looking for people at 28,000 pounds a pop.
You could also get in with GNER which from what I've heard is the best paying railroad in Britain. It's also hard to get into as you have to wait for someone to retire.........................or wait for the next GNER train to crash.
Examples of what they [the LIRR] expect of you? If you're sick (and not in the hospital), you don't call in sick. You show up for duty and go out sick then. No putting a clothespin on your nose and calling from outside Shea Stadium.
Does the LIRR verify sick calls through telephone calls and home visits, as the subway does?
Absolutely.
The logic of a loser !!! Why anyone would choose a job based on the discipline system is beyond me. When most people take a job they look at the interest the job holds, the pay, the benifits, etc. I don't know anyone who takes a job with the idea that they will be disciplined. Then you make a decision based on talking to one person - and likely not an unbiased one. Great move.
Let me give you a few facts. First, you are not guilty until proven innocent at the TA. There are times because of safety concerns, that peopel are put on modified assignment. In other cases, a person may be subject to pre-disciplinary suspension in a serious case. This is no different than anywhere else in the universe. As for the railroads, the FRA doesn't pull your license for minor infractions. However, if you lose your driver's license, you'd likely lose your engineer's license. If you are arrested for DWI you'll lose your engineer's license.
I suggest that if you are considering a job with the LIRR, MNRR or the TA you change your thought processes. Try considering that IF you are lucky enough to get a job with any of the 3 organizations, you will work every day to make the organization better for having you. Drop the loser thinking!
Good advise, but some folks look for jobs based on: how much OT, how little they have to work, how lax the mngt. is with disipline, & how few hours they have to be there.
Fortunately there are tests & probationary periods to weed out most of these loosers before they become full time employees.
Mr t__:^)
look for jobs based on: how much OT, how little they have to work, how lax the mngt. is with disipline, & how few hours they have to be there.
The guys who can genuinely do this really impress me, actually. They are not losers, but the smartest ass. Why not get away with less work if you can? The only problem is, I would rather see a job well done, I don't seem to be able to reconcile myself to that mentality. I really really wished I could. Then I could be a loser too, and wouldn't get fired for working harder and knowing more than my boss.
It's the management's fault if they let people get away with this. That said, I think I've already pointed out that it's often cheaper to let people get away with it than to weed out the so-called losers. After all, most people are lazy. The only real way to manage a workforce properly is by using performance-related incentives, and by this I don't just mean an annual appraisal.
>>>First, you are not guilty until proven innocent at the TA.<<<
Try convincing the hourlies on this.
Perhaps it's the terminology. True, there is a presumption of innocense in our penal laws. Despite that - people are arrested, released on bail if warranted and face trial when charged with a crime. I can't prove a negative (where mployees were not assumed to be guilty) but perhaps you can cite an example where a person was deemed guilty and had to be proven innocent. As a matter of fact, I can cite an example - one I've raised before.
I had an employee (cleaner) who was arrested while on duty. He left his work location, went to a terminal and was arrested while going through the pockets of a sleeping customer.
Despite the arrest -
despite the fact that he was observed by 2 undercover officers -
despite the fact that this was the 2nd time arrested while on duty,
despite the fact that his wife left him,
despite the fact that he threatened to kill anyone who testified against him -
we had to go through with the triPartite hearing (including several postponements) before the arbitrator decided that the penalty of termination was warranted. This was after the charges were sustained at the 3 preliminary steps.
Another employee was AWOL for nearly 2 years. Why? because he was arrested in California for smuggling 50 Kilos of marajuana. He was convicted and did roughly 18 months in Solidad prison. He came back abd was charged with the AWOL and Conduct Unbecoming. We had to go through the same lengthy process before he was removed from the payroll.
Don't even hint about how to get rid of someone via Civil Service rules. I can't believe what happens and what is needed.
Go to the Board's website (www.nycenet.edu) arbitration cases (results) are posted there. Makes for some intresting reading (and some not so) that people can do "things" at work and it takes years to remove them.
perhaps you can cite an example where a person was deemed guilty and had to be proven innocent.
Maybe it's not quite what we're going for here, but:
In early October,2000, I booked sick due to severe abdominal pains. I called the sick desk three hours before my report time. I then called them again to inform them I was leaving the house to go to the ER at the hospital and supplied name and address of same (This was a Sunday afternoon). Five hours later, i tried to call and update them but was unable to, since no one answered the phone ( after 10 minutes of ringing). When I was finally released, I went home, called myself back into the house - on the CRs desk, since the TO desk still wasn't being answered, and booked off for an additional three days. Upon my return, I submitted Doctor's lines on the standard Transit sick form.
Six weeks later, I found on my pay stub that a sick day had been taken back. After spending an hour talking to four different people, I was able to find that it was taken back because it was felt that I had been out of the house for too long. If I wanted the day's pay back and avoid discipline, I had to prove my case.
Now I had to file a contract grieveance and get proof from the hospital as to my admittance and discharge times, and then wait on the arbitrator ( This was when they were all fired) Eight weeks later, the day was restored to me. The finding basically reading: he did what he was supposed to, he gave you doctor's proof of illness, what more do you want? Pay him.
Was it worth the effort on Transit's part to get this day's pay? considering how much it ended up costing everyone, they would have done better to pay me and leave it alone. And before you ask, I don't abuse my sick time - they could have checked their records on that.
RTO and DCE handle such matters quite differently. More on that in a bit. First, the main point. The recovery of wages 'improperly paid' is an administrative matter and not a disciplinary matter. The two can be exclusive of each other. The recovery of 'un-earned wages' may be a prelude to decipline but not always. As you correctly pointed out, you had to file a 'contract interpretation grievence' to get the pay back. This, again, does not constitute discipline.
As I said at the beginning, DCE handles such matters very much differently. The supervisor of the employee reviews the sick leave application and will resolve (if possible) any discrepancies before the form is submitted. Since the employee is right there, such misunderstandings can be resolved at the location.
BUT to relate this all to my previous post - this does not constitute the presumption of guilt. There was evidence that you did not follow the proper procedure as stated in Article 2.6 G & I in the contract. The money was recovered based on the evidence of that violation. Perhaps the discipline should have been initiated first and the wages recovered if the case was proven. Again, the difference in the way the two divisions do business.
I viewed the picture on the nycsubway web and nicest what I saw is R6. It's nostalgia. It's cooool. I'm sorry, that I didn't expirience there time.
The R-6 was part of the IND prewar fleet. I remember that car class well.
AH, YES, Steve I remember ONE PARTICULAR car PARTICULARLY well....
does the date 9/11/1973 ring a bell?
wayne
Well, as a matter of fact, it does. I got my driver's license that day. My sister discovered she really had a brother after all.
And, yes, I know where this is going. 1277 leading a crush loaded F train, brutally hot day, heat on in the car, and some poor guy blows chunks while under the East River. And the train was so packed you couldn't get off until Roosevelt Ave. I'm chuckling as I write this. You had to be there, folks.
And when the doors opened at Queens Plaza people fell out like in the Marx Brothers "Night At The Opera" I was wedged in tight; so was most everybody else in that end of the car and by the time we got to Roosevelt Avenue the car began to smell quite badly.
Some things you just NEVER forget, no matter how many years go by.
wayne
I was going to ask if you tried to hold your breath.:-)
IIRC 1233 was the lead motor on that F train whose bull and pinion gears got up to A-440 once on the Union Turnpike-Parsons racetrack. And if that wasn't enough, the R-10s on that F train you took in 1981 took that stretch even faster.
I certainly wish I wasn't. Being a regular F train rider, all I can say about that is BLEAURGH!!!.
I think that having someone vomit (myself included) on a crowded train is one of my transit nightmares, right up there with the 7 falling off of the 90 degree curve coming into Hunter's Point Ave. and the Manny Bridge finally giving way with me on it.
Dan
Oh that was EASILY one of my most unpleasant transit experiences! At that time of my life I was commuting back and forth from Elmont to Lexington-3rd Avenue. There must have been a 6th Avenue delay that day because I waited almost 20 minutes and let about five "E" trains (including some nicely A/C'd R40M's and R40AC Slants) go by - I just HAD to have my "F". Well, I got it that day! The train was unbelievably crowded and it took numerous tries by the conductor to get the doors closed. We took off into the tube like a bat out of hell, rocking and swaying from side to side. And then THAT happened! HUUUUUURRRRKKKK!!! BLECCCCHHH! You could feel the whole crowd shift. It was simply misearable.
I would have to bet that incidents like the one that happened that day are not that uncommon given the number of people riding the subways every day.
wayne
Of course, it wouldn't have been so bad if the heat hadn't been on.:-) And you pointed out earlier that the fans were no help. Were the storm doors open between cars?
Nowadays, you'd have a delay and possible reroutes due to a sick passenger.
IIRC 9/11/73 wasn't THAT hot, not in Connecticut, anyway.
Not to mention RAAAALLLLLLLLLPPPHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Dont mind me; I'm ROTFLMAO. OK, so I have a warped sense of humor.
Of course, it wouldn't have been so bad if the heat hadn't been on.:-) And you pointed out earlier that the fans were no help. Were the storm doors open between cars?
Nowadays, you'd have a delay and possible reroutes due to a sick passenger.
IIRC 9/11/73 wasn't THAT hot, not in Connecticut, anyway.
Those are good points, especially the one about the Manhattan Bridge. I still think the "Bridge Disaster in New York" headline is not all that farfetched.
There were 3 different R-6 cars.
R-6-1 = 100 cars built by Pressed Steel car Co. in 1936 for $37,485 per car.
R-6-2 = 150 cars built by Pullman Standard in 1936 for $37,835 per car
R-6-3 = 250 cars built by ACF in 1935 for $37,683.
Here are a few more tidbits
the unit numbers:
R-6-3 = 900- 1149 ACF (Westinghouse)
R-6-2 = 1150-1299 PUL (GE)
R-6-1 = 1300-1399 PRS (Westinghouse)
The R-6-2 had the scalloped edge sockets around the little white lites; the others had straight edges. Also the R-6-2 bracket holding the standee pole on top of the transverse seat is a little different; has a wider flare and a different curvature.
The R-6-2 was one FAST subway car. None of the other R-1/9 class were as fast as these.
wayne
How many miles do you think they logged in their careers? I remember seeing a memorandum at then 207 Street Overhaul Shop congradulating CED for the 4 million mile mark on the R10s, shortly before their demise.
Cars on the E & F log about 5,700 miles per month. That should put them around the 2.5 million mile mark per car.
The R6 was one of a series of cars that looked nearly identical,classes R1, R4, R6, R7, R7a, R9 built between l930 and 1940. They were the last of many types of old style trains running on the New York Transit System. Not only the classic, rivited steel construction and style that dated back some 20 or more years before they were built, but they had the growling motor sounds that the newer equipment does not have, and sounded SO powerful!
Glad you liked them, and notice quality! I loved running them when I was a motorman [driver] and enjoyed many rides on them as a passenger.
The interior of the car is very nice, but the outside is just ugly. Anyway, It would be nice if current NYC cars had an interior as nice as this car's.Certainly looks nice to have seats with some kind of padding rather than those drab hard benches that the modern trains have. (Ugh, even the R142s have them)
With current levels of vandalism, no padded seats are possible.
Yeah. One word: Boxcutter. Or two words: Box cutter. Either way, the seats would last intact for exactly three stops after being put into service before vandals found them and destroyed them.
Dan
Most of the R-6 seats were wicker but there were a few (I think mostly the R-6-1) that had a mix of wicker and red padded vinyl. The R-7s (but not the R-7a) had more red padded than wicker. I often wondered whether these were spares from the R16 when they got converted to fiberglas. All the R-7a and R-9 in Eastern Division also had fiberglas, hard as stone and murder on the sacroiliac.
wayne
"I often wondered whether these were spares from the R16 when they got converted to fiberglas."
The R-16 seat frames had different dimensions.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> Most of the R-6 seats were wicker but there were a few (I think mostly the R-6-1) that had a mix of wicker and red padded vinyl. The R-7s (but not the R-7a) had more red padded than wicker. <<<
Are you sure the red vinyl was original equipment? I was under the impression that the red vinyl was not available for civilian use until after the war and then it was plentiful and used to replace worn seats on all three divisions.
Tom
Right you are. I don't think they started putting the vinyl covers on R1-9 seats until the late 50's. The Low-V's actually ..some cars, not all..got complete new cushions foam rubber with red vinyl covering about that time. The first new cars to come completely equipped with them were the R16; the R15 looked like it in photos, but wasn't.
Needless to say the easy destructibility of those nice seats was soon noticed by officials and the R26 of l959 and everything thereafter resulted in the seats you have today.Oh yes, the last 10 R22's had them too. IIRC some wicker seats were just covered over with the stuff too, ifthey were wearing, but were still the old sprung cushions.
>>> I don't think they started putting the vinyl covers on R1-9 seats until the late 50's <<<
I remember seeing them (rarely) in the early 50s, mainly on the IRT Low-Vs, so late 50s for the IND would be appropriate given the difference in age of the equipment.
Tom
that is correct; I don't believe that the red vinyl was original on the R-6/7/7a cars; I think it came afterwards, perhaps transplanted from the R16s when they got the fiberglas seats. It was also placed randomly in the R-6/7/7a cars; no set pattern; a seat hear a back there, etc. I wonder if some also came from the AB's some of which had them too.
wayne
I think that the red vinyl made its debut on the R-16's. Some older cars were refurbished with red vinyl (even some Standards), before the powers-that-be decided that red vinyl did not last very long.
IIRC the rattan was replaced with rattan as needed. The corners were a well worn location. Then came a synthetic rattan which was a flat peice of cotton covered with a bright shiney yellow vinyl. A referbushed , repainted car was a bright sight to behold. The synthetic rattan had to be folded for the corners. The red vinyl naughahide was eaiser to fit over old rattan and later heavey foam rubber seats. All beat the livin hell out of hard bucket seats and benches
avid
Which side does PATH have trip-hammers and tripcocks, the A or B division side ?
I think there on the B Division side, the lift.
Robert
Think of the PATH system as the one with the A division cars with the B division triphammers.
Actaully, the PATH cars are 5 inches to fat for the IRT (8'9" to 9'2.5")
That's only the PA-1s and up. They bulge at the beltrail but have
the same upper width as IRT cars. The earlier H&M cars (A-K class)
were straight-sided.
What PATH told me was that a PATH PA Car can run in the IRT but IRT cars cannot run on the PATH system.(SOURCE:PATH during the Fall 1999 Customer Advisory group)
Does anyone have the actual measurements of the PA Cars
I have Wayner's "PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" with an MP38:
48'L x 8'10.5" W (over threshold plates) x 11'8.5" H
Thanks. Now does anyone have the info for the PA-1 to PA-4 series
Hi everyone, I like railways and subways. You have interest about corresponding? I send its mail. Thanks Americans.
Answer me this oh any wise people out there:
If the MTA is doing whatever plans with the new services and route changes because of Manny B, why not bringing back retired trains back into service.
How bad are the R27/R30s? I was really young when I remembered being on those trains, so I couldn't tell if they were in bad shape. But I can't imagine that EVERY R27/30 is unusable. Heck with Lemieux back, and Jordan coming back from 1 retirement, why not polish off the brake dust....run them around the Sea Beach express to get them back in shape and let em rip on whatever line you guys want. I don't care where they go as long as they come back, provided that they can operate normally and are safe. I mean throw them on Franklin Ave, the G, Rockaway Shuttle, or the 6th Ave Shuttles when Manny B changes things.
If they can handle full routes, more power to them. I just want to know if there's at least a thought at MTA to put em back into service.
And if they're all scrapped or now part of metal plates in people's bodies...oh well...it was a thought.
=)
R27 and R30 are very good but they have alredy retired. I know it. In the Czech the same.
I think it's to do with maintenance costs and service reliability. With these old kit, you either up the maintenance, in which case the cost becomes too high, or you run them into the ground, in which case you have 1 or more failure somewhere every day on the system, resulting in line blockages etc of up to an hour. It's not really a problem where your trains are every hour if one fails, but where it is every 10 mins you soon put a crimp into operations if one of your trains sit down on a double track main.
I have a feeling from reading MTA's capital programme that they are trying to rid of all the old kit and enhance their reputation in reliability rather than try to bite off more than they can chew. To me this sounds like good management sense.
I see that NYCsubway.org list them as being 1960's era cars. If my knowledge of fleet engineering serves me correctly, these cars will be very robust (in that they can usually be got to move whatever the problem), but they will still not match the reliability standard demanded from modern traction. In the old days it was OK for the motorman to lean under the car to reset a relay to get the car going again, not nowadays. Not only the safety people will stop you, not many motorman would have the necessary knowledge, and customers don't seem to like this kinda thing. Long gone are the days when you lifted the car back onto the track yourself if your car derailed. I miss those days.
Lexcie
Great idea Al.
Furthermore, why not save the redbirds as the R-142's and R-142A's come on line. IOW, only scrap the rustiest, most unreliable R-33's and R-36's, and keep the rest running. The mechanics are already well-versed in their maintenance, and I've never been on a redbird which broke down *knock wood*. I realize this will enhance availability only on the A division, but why throw away rolling stock which works? Find something else to use for that reef off Long Island!
my man !! ...................excellent post !!!!
They should remember the situation with the R-30's. The MTA seemed to be in a hurry to get rid of these cars. True, they weren't air conditioned and may have been rustbirds, but they could have filled in for other cars on an emergency basis.
I heard a story a long time ago, but I don't know whether it is fact or not. (Someone from the Transit Authority may know the true story.) Supposedly, in the 1980's, the R-10's were already sold for scrap, when a rolling stock shortage became acute, due to the massive GOH program going on at that time. The R-10's had to be bought back from the scrap dealers until enough overhauled cars were available.
In a much earlier thread, someone mentioned that storage space may be a reason why more obsolete cars aren't mothballed.
I would really hope to see some "B" division cars mothballed in the future. The stainless steel cars are more rust-resistant than the LAHT steel cars (although some, such as the R-38s, R-40s, and R-42s, have steel roofs). Although they may suffer from other problems, such as metal fatigue and frame cracks, it might be possible to weed out the more well-preserved examples of each type. With a second overhaul, these cars would certainly not LOOK out of place in the 21st century, given their stainless steel bodies and (in the case of the R-40-m and R-42) their sleek lines.
I also heard about that story with the R-10s. Whether or not it involved the 110 cars that were fixed up and painted green, I don't know.
They also mothballed a group of R-16s in the late 70s, then pressed them into service when the R-46s began having truck cracking problems.
With a second overhaul, these cars would certainly not LOOK out of place in the 21st century, given their stainless steel bodies and (in the case of the R-40-m and R-42) their sleek lines.
And the Slant R40 too!
wayne
I don't know about the "slants" they never looked very good with all that hardware attached to the front.
Now this is just a fantasy....it would never come to pass....but...those cars would look great if the gates were removed, and the married pairs were split up, and a straight-ended R-40 or R-42 was attached to a slant. Then, these slant-ended cars would only be used at the front of rear of a train. (Kind of like the San Francisco BART trains.)
Maybe if MTH makes a slant-R40 model, I'll attach it to my R42 model and see how it looks.
The Slant R40 is the ugliest subway car running; it wears its ugliness like a crown, and that ultimately becomes its beauty. The hardware has to be there because it would be unsafe without it. The low rails just didn't do. There are still no grab irons between the "B" ends (ditto for the R40M)
wayne
So why do everyone hate the look of the Amtrak Genesis P40? I quite like it. You might also argue that it wears its ugliness like a crown, although to me I think the elegant sleek outline is better than anything else out there, well except perhaps the SD90MAC, but the P40 wasn't exactly built for coal drags, and I like different styling for different locomotive types.
Lexcie
Heck. I like the look of the Slant R40. It's unique! It breaks up an otherwise monotonous looking fleet of trains.
So what exwactly were the safety modifications made that supposedly make it look ugly? Are there any pictures of the slants without them?
:-) Andrew
The safety modifications are all the chains and bars on the slanted ends.
>>>Are there any pictures of the slants without them?<<<
OF COURSE! Right here in this website! Just look at the R40 photos.
Here's a new R40 at 179th St. in 1968. Notice the smooth looking slanted ends which were marred by the attachments:
The SubTalkers on this board who were not on the face of this earth when the slants were brand new would be astounded on how dangerous it was when you walked in between the #1 ends of a slant. I know I do. I remember those who though they were immortal actually riding in between cars sitting on the little ledge.
I first saw and rode a Slant on August 3, 1968. It was one of the non A/C variety and for all its handsome looks was no cooler or more comforatble than the R-6s and R-7s it was running alongside. The ride was certainly very smooth. The "A" ends were locked. It wasn't until they installed the gates and safetly rails that I began to notice that the "A" ends were unlocked.
wayne
Ah, but there was one thing the old timers had that the slants didn't: spur-cut bull and pinion gears. And pneumatic doors, and ceiling fans, etc., etc., etc.
IIRC the R-10s had not yet been sold for scrap but were deadlined, with their numbers crossed out, stricken from the roster, ready for the scrapper. Due to the car shortage they were pulled off the deadline and pressed back into service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What does IIRC stand for?
Dan
I= IF
I= I
R= REMEMBER
C= Correctly
Some old BMT standards were pulled from scrap and put back in service also, think it was l966 or so; I don't remember first hand, read about it here.
That was during the Jamaica Yard Crisis, when the R-1/9s assigned there began dropping like flies due to deferred maintenance. 32 R-16s were borrowed from the BMT for GG service, and a group of BMT standards were yanked off the scrapline and sent back to revenue service - with the S for Scrap on their sides hastily painted over.
Seems like we go through this silly thread every week or so. Hello folks - there is no shortage of IRT cars..... We have pleanty of the little critters. However, it cost money to maintain a fleet of cars that we don't need. It takes space to store a fleet of cars we don't need. This AINT lionelville, guy, where you can stick unused cars in a box and slip them under your bed. Finally, - you've "never seen a redbird which broke down, knock wood"? Where in the system do you work? The redbirds break down as frequently as any other car fleet if not more. The Redbird fleets except for the R-36s MDBF is not nearly meeting the department goal. The issue is not breakdowns. It's corrosion that can't be repaired. It's miles per maintenance man-hours. It's irreversible aging that is the issue.
Well, I don't work "in the system." I'm just an everyday rider. And, I said that I had never been on a redbird which broke down. I was actually posing the question so someone like you who does work in the system would provide insight, so thank you. Also, I'm not advocating for the redbirds as opposed to the R-142s, but rather for both. I think that sets my original post somewhat aside from the simple "redbirds vs. R-142s" debates.
Pete, I tried to point out that there is no need to maintain the Redbirds once the R-142s come on line. There will simply be too many cars, otherwise. As it is, several trains of redbirds will be maintained in a state of readiness "Just in case". There would be little value in maintaining more than an emergency fleet.
and how many cars would you say that should be?
I would imagine that 10 to 12 trainsets will be kept ready for service. Concourse Yard will host 4 trainsets of redbirds.
Seems like we go through this silly thread every week or so.
It sure does, but I guess you haven't read my posts -- and it's clear you don't ride the rush hour 1/9, at least not over its busiest section.
As I've posted numerous times, rush hour 1/9 service needs to be doubled. I assure you, the passengers who crowd the 72nd Street platforms don't care about rust -- they'd simply like to get to the local stations, which just happen to serve the most densely populated neighborhood in the country. With roughly twice as frequent 2/3 service as 1/9 service, and alternate 1/9's skipping local stops due to overcrowding, it's not as easy as it sounds.
This is not the usual pattern of crowded expresses and empty locals. Here, people actually need to get to the local stops.
If there are enough cars today for such increased service, it should be implemented today. If there aren't, then there indeed is a car shortage, whether or not the TA chooses to recognize it.
Those platforms at 72nd are narrow, and the rehab project will most likely, if anything, reduce standing room. Local service needs to be improved before passengers start falling to the tracks.
"As I've posted numerous times, rush hour 1/9 service needs to be doubled. ........
How did you determine that the service needs to be doubled? What is doubled? 40 TPH? 44 TPH? 50 TPH? What imperical data did you use?
If there are enough cars today for such increased service, it should be implemented today"
If it were just that simple. You don't double service simply by doubling the number of cars on the line. Perhaps the line will only handle a finite number of trains per hour. Perhaps the terminal at 240th St will only handle the number of trains now turning there.
I've made my determination by riding the line. Invariably, during the afternoon rush hour, alternate "locals" skip local stops on the Upper West Side, precisely where the local stops see very heavy usage. I suppose the TA could experiment with running every local, without exception, as a true local, and to hell with the schedule -- I wouldn't be surprised if they actually save time in the process. (The chaos that occurs every time the train stops, with passengers getting on and back off again and blocking the doors to try to determine if the local is actually making local stops, takes about as much time as it would take to simply stop at the local stops themselves.) If that doesn't work, service needs to be improved. Remember, this isn't the more common situation of a crowded express and empty local, where running occasional locals express makes sense -- here, the passengers' only options are to wait amidst the dangerously large crowd at 72nd and to walk from the nearest express station. Neither is an acceptable option.
The line currently has approximately half the service of the express (I can't tell you the exact headways as I can't access the MTA web page right now). Is there some reason I'm unaware of that the 1/9 needs twice the headways of the 2/3? If there is, it's certainly not obvious. As for the terminals, trains can turn quickly at the south terminal, and the added service can terminate at 137th. (This would allow for peak direction express service between 96th and 137th as well, if those who would be affected would find it useful -- and I'd guess they would, since it negatively affects few.)
Have you ever spent any time at 72nd Street during the afternoon rush hour? I'd recommend the experience. Pretend you're trying to get to 79th or 86th for the full effect.
As a matter of fact, I went out of my way this morning to ride the 1/9 and 3 trains this AM. I also spoke to the platform conductor at Times Square southbound the AM - a former employee of mine. It was clear that both the express and local at 7:30 AM are packed to capacity. So are the E and the F. So is the A. So are most lines. I don't know what the number of trains per hour was but the 1/9 was a conga line down to 14th St. I doubt that you could run more than one or two more trains on the line if that much.
BTW: I also rode it back at 4 PM from Bklyn and it was much lighter.
The afternoon rush is more crowded than the morning rush. Try it then. Stand on the northbound platform at 72nd.
Now that I can access the MTA web page, I checked the schedule. At the peak of rush hour, the 1/9 runs every 4-6 minutes. That's less than 15 tph. You call that capacity? Funny, it's not capacity on any other line. The 1/9 has no excuse, even -- it's isolated on the local track, it has a quick turnaround at the south end, and it has two potential north terminals (although these days it only uses one).
The 7 local also runs every 4-6 minutes and it has to merge with the express at the end of the line.
Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced the TA sends out as many trains as it claims it does. Waits for the local often approach ten minutes, and the first local to arrive invariably runs express (not that doing so saves any time).
As I said before, I'd be satisfied with a simple experiment: keep the schedule as is but stop every local train at every local stop in the area of contention (say, between 42nd and 96th), regardless of how far behind schedule it is. See what happens. It might help. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the only solution is to run more trains.
I always ragged on the R27/R30s but now that they are just a memory, just a thought. MTS Imports can make a brass 4 car set signed up for the Grand Street Shuttle. I would want the electrical grids to glow orange on one car when power is applied with amber lights on the other three and the wheels filed down to true flat specifications. BTW, anyone know why 8569 was retired with the tiled flooring while the others got the creme/red linoleum?
With all of you is very fun.
I heard that due to the upcoming disruption of the B & D lines in the Bronx that a new "W" train will be introduced....anyone know more than me about it?
The (W) will replace the (B) on the West End line in Brooklyn. it will follow the Broadway line in Manhattan, apparently continuing on through the Astoria line to keep the (N) company.
Meanwhile, the (Q) will come home to Broadway, and cover both the local and express runs on the Brighton line in Brooklyn. (Express will be a diamond .) It will terminate at 57th St/7th Ave.
:-) Andrew
I also heard that the 2nd Ave subway is back in the planning stages with revisions showing that it may be extended to the Bronx (as far north as Co-Op City). Anybody know something about that?
The 2nd Ave subway is in planning stages now. We'll see how far it goes this time--there may be actual building. I don't think they have any current plans to extend it past 125th, however, other than speculation on this board.
:-) Andrew
During the early morning hours of Thursday April 12, as Norfolk Southern
train 12G waited at Bacon interlocking on the Northeast Corridor, the
freight was passed by an Amtrak passenger train on an adjacent track. While
the metroliner ripped by, the suction from the 125mph track speed tore the
battery box doors from the lead dash nine on the NS freight.
There was reportedly no damage to the Amtrak train, and it was able to
continue on without lengthy delay. Due to the incident, the freight train
was unable to continue, and outlawed on the Northeast Corridor for the third
consecutive day. Amtrak track maintenance work was not helping the
situation, as there was only one available track for all movements last
night between Davis and Prince interlocking in Perryville.
Also in NEC news, Acela is reportedly testing at 140mph. The other night,
CETC was heard giving an Acela trainset authority to exceed maximum track
speed of 135mph, and operate at 140mph.
The Learning Channel (TLC)
Series: Monster Trains
Episode: Metal Monsters
Travel on some of the most spectacular railways in the world, and meet the passengers, engineers and rail historians who have searched the rails for the ultimate train journey. Persons who own, have restored, and operate their trains are also interviewed.
.
Saturday, Apr 14 2001 2:00 PM ET
Sunday, Apr 15 2001 2:00 AM ET (Saturday night)
Saw it this past week. It appears to be a piece made by cutting & pasting other pieces togather. The title is missleading since it's not devoted to the biggest badest trains around.
That said it was good for what it did show, e.g. several wealthy guys who own & run their own trains. On the monster side there is a piece on the CP train that goes East to West & is over a mile long.
Mr t__:^)
I was watching the LIRR Trains at Rosedale today. I saw a stop ajnd proceed signal. This Train is passin thru rosedale at 7pm when the 6:57 had just left The Train rounded the curve doing about 5mph. The Train enters rosedale stopping about halfway through leaving about 3 or so cars outside rosedale. Suddenly the TailCar hits the impeedence bond(this is how Automatic Speed Control communicates with the Trains Engineer) and the Signal clears to a approach. The Train then proceeds with restricted speed and continues. My assumption is that he is headed for a yard. This reminds me of the time I saw a E TRAIN pulling into the storage track at JAMAICA CENTER. The Motorman was rolling and then he did a rolling stop then he pressed the button, the Trip arm goes down and he goes in. They seem similar in their meaning yet have a different name.....
Short answer...NO. The signal clearing was because the other train that was already in the block, left it just as the train crossed into the formerly S&P block. A S&P signal is not like a call-on because it involves an automatic signal. No dispatcher has control over the signal and no permission is needed for the train to Stop and them Proceed. The railroad equilivent of a call-on is a Restricting signal shown on Home signals.
A restricting home signal is in fact known as a "call-on" in
big RR signal nomenclature. Just like TA signals, the tower operator
must press a button to make the call-on appear. Just like TA signals,
the call-on can not be issued unless the iron is good. But unlike
TA signals, the engineer taking the call-on doesn't have to do
anything special such as operate the stop arm release.
In big railroads there is no special call-on button. If no conflicting route is set the towerman will be able to clear the home signal. Depending on block conditions the home signal will display anything from Clear to Restricting. It's all hardwired.
That is generally NOT the case. Even though the home signal is
reversed, it will display STOP when the route through the interlocking
does not have all clear track circuits. There is a call-on button.
It is either underneath the lever on a unit-lever machine, a
pushbutton at the bottom of the board on a mini-lever machine, or
is implemented by turning the entrance button the wrong way (opposite
of fleeting position) on an entrance-exit machine. There are
some rare instances where a particular railroad will wire up
a certain signal so that there is no call-on and the signal normally
displays restricting right behind the train, but that is unusual.
Fleeting aside. most CTC machines and US&S EP machines only gave the operator the option to clear ot not to clear. The type of signal displayed was determined by the interlocking circutiry.
I asked a former Metro North / New Haven RR tower operator and
he confirmed: in most interlockings, there are separate call-on
buttons. Sometimes the signal is wired so that bringing it to normal
and then re-clearing it will give a call-on. The practice varies
depending on which R.R and which plant, and sometimes it varies within
the same plant as well.
It's not called a Call-on. It's a Restricting signal.
--
\
I believe the former New Haven used GRS machines, my experiance is with US&S. On all my tower operation descriptions I have never heard of a seperate Restricting proceedure. On US&S the only lever positions are ClearR/Stop/ClearL and Normal/Reverse. I'll forward this question to the Interlocking Towers List and get back to you.
Actually, the NHRR was exclusively a USS shop. The NYC was
heavy into GRS.
And it certainly is called a call-on. The name of the signal
indication is Restricting, but the process of displaying that
signal into an occupied block is known as "giving a call-on".
Where do you think NYCT came up with the idea?
The signal you describe is a Position Light signal, which was
unique to the PRR. There is no color-light equivalent to the
backslash, or restricting symbol. Restricting is displayed as
R/R/Y on a high color-light homeball. Is it possible that all
of the towers you are familiar with are ex-Pennsy?
On a USS upright interlocking machine, the call-on button is
below the signal lever. On a mini-lever CTC-style machine, the
buttons are usually in a row at the bottom of the board.
Restricting should be changed to R/R/LW or R/LW. Several western RR's do that and it's a good idea.
Where do you think NYCT came up with the idea?
They NYCT frequently does things wrong. I don't give it's signaling system much credit.
The signal you describe is a Position Light signal, which was
unique to the PRR.
N&W also. B&O CPL's had a lunar \.
Restricting is displayed as
R/R/Y on a high color-light homeball.
Or R/Y. Usually a dead giveaway that a signal is a homeball is the capibility to show a restricting signal even if it's like a training point junction.
On a USS upright interlocking machine, the call-on button is
below the signal lever.
Ok, I checked my archives and I think I see the buttons inbetween the lever rows and the light rows. They are hidden by the levers when in the STOP position. I guess I was just blinded by our current age of fleeting signals. Still, I have never heard of call-on outside of a subway setting and I've been pretty into tower operations.
To the best of my knowledge, the LIRR uses both a "restricting" signal and a "stop & proceed". The restricting (aspect is 3 across over 3 diagonal - similar to "slow approach" but diagonal is opposite)does not require a stop to enter an occupied block. The stop and proceed (3 across over a single light) does require a stop before proceeding.
Well S&P is an automatic indication and Restricting is seem on Home signals.
But wait...it gets better. Any S&P signal where a yellow (G) sign (grade marker) or letter (R) sign (restricting marker) is displayed in addition to a number plate as part of these aspects, freight trains may observe the signal as though Restricting, Rule 290, were displayed
Greetings all,
I’m planning my annual trip to Florida this year by means of the Autotrain again. I’ve been taking the Autotrian for a few years now and have notice that the prices has increased. As I recall last year, the price for 2 adults with a room and an oversize vehicle as about $1200 round-trip. This years prices jumped up to over $2000. Is the increase due to the rise in fuel prices or lack of rider ship? Have the increase also effected other lines as well?
Amtrak has 95 reasons to take the Autotrain. I have 2000 reasons not to take the Autotrain this year.
Don't you have only 800 reasons not to take it?
Well, those 800 reasons will paid for fuel and food roundtrip with plenty leftover.
The last I heard, Amtrak Autotrain was suffering from over-subscription. They had to run the Autoracks with NS locos in a second portion, and a 3rd portion mixed passenger/autorack had to be run with spare F-40s.
Now, unless someone suddenly decides that this growth can be sustained (and I am not saying whether it could or couldn't be), then putting the price up is the best option in the short term.
I am puzzled as to why they only run Autotrain on that one route. I, for one, see great potential in trans-continental Autotrains. But I'm probably wrong.
Lexcie
Auto Train proposal - for example
12.30p dep. Lorton, VA
8.00p arr. Pittsburgh, PA (uplifting only)
10.00p dep. Pittsburgh, PA
7.30a arr. Chicago, IL
10.00a dep. Chicago, IL
5.00p arr. Kansas City, MO
7.00p dep. Kansas City, MO
7.00a arr. Denver, CO
9.20a dep. Denver, CO (portioned with Zephyr)
5.30p arr. Emeryville, CA
Yup, this means building Auto Train handling facilities in a yard somewhere in Pittsburgh, Chicago, Kansas City, Denver, and San Francisco. I don't know how difficult this is, but Pittsburgh for one is quite easy, the existing station will allow vehicle access and it's just a question of building a ramp.
Does anyone want to comment on the viability of this scheme?
Pre-Amtrak Auto Train, owned by Rutgers grad Eugene Garfield, initiated a second route, from Louisville to Florida, but the timing was bad; interest rates skyrocketed, and income couldn't meet the interest due on the money borrowed to finance start-up costs.
That's interesting to hear. Speaking with the Autotrain crew last year, there are no plans to extend the Autotrain to New York. Costs would be high because all the bridges would have to be rasied to accept the Autotrain height.
Two things wrong with that statement (whilst I have no intention to fault the Autotrain crew):
(a) If you run via B&O to Philadelphia, you can probably take Autotrain racks all the way to at least some point *near* to NYC. This won't be a downtown terminal, but anyone wanting to go get the Autotrain would not want to drive downtown for it anyway. CSX will love the extra intermodal train they get to run, although they will have to go a long way to make sure they don't run this intermodal at an average of 25mph like their other intermodals.
(b) It wouldn't be expensive to buy different Autotrain racks that will fit on the NEC, if there is a business case for running via the NEC rather than via the B&O.
Whenever anyone proposes any new scheme, one is always met with the "it won't work" response... I think the emphasis here is to make it work, if customers like yourself are willing to pay $ for it in order to avoid the long distance drive.
They did the same thing last year on the west coast. I live a hundred miles north of San Diego, and have to go down there regularly (twice a month) and traffic does get a tad heavy at times. So I was using the train, and it was costing $24.00 roundtrip. Then, all of a sudden, it was $36.00 roundtrip early last summer.....
So I've been driving every trip now, as I can go down there and back for $15.00 worth of gas even at today's high prices. And then I don't have to take two hours and fifteen minutes on the train when I can do the trip in my car in 95 minutes.
The good part about the Autotrain is it cut the driving time and less wear and tear on the vehicle. But for the price, I'll be driving also.
Only thing is I'll be spending a little more than $15.00. The good part is that gas gets cheaper once your out of New York City and further south.
Here in Philadelphia, both the subway-surface lines and the Media/
Sharon Hill lines use basically the same Kawasaki LRVs, except the
ones on the Media/Sharon Hill lines are double-enders, and the ones
in the city are single-enders. One thing I can't figure out is why
the Media/Sharon Hill LRVs use pantographs, and the ones in the city
use traditional trolley poles. Do pantographs have any advantage over
trolley poles, or vice versa? I noticed that most modern LRVs use
pantographs. Why weren't pantographs installed on the single-end
LRVs, like the ones on the Media/Sharon Hill lines?
The Suburban Division went to pantographs on the LRV's to eliminate the possibility of operators getting hit by automobiles when changing ends, mostly in Media, plus the overhead needed replacing. The City Division stayed with trolley poles as changing all the overhead in the entire streetcar system would have been a major expense. The only expense was the removal of armor on the ears. Armor is necessary with trolley wheels to reduce arcing, but it chews up carbon shoes. As SEPTA was converting to shoes, the armor was removed over several months before the change from wheels to shoes.
Pantographs have the advantage of avoidng dewiring, where the trolley pole jumps off the wire, not an uncommon event. As speeds increase, so do the chances of dewiring.
I don't all the advantages of trolley poles, but they probably include clearance advantages, mechanical simplicity for the car-borne unit, and easier construction of overhead,
There's another advantage to useing trolley poles rather than pantographs: streetcar and electric bus lines can cross eachother reasonably easily with careful placement of section isolators. The width of a pantograph could easily cross both wires in electric bus overhead and short circuit them at a junction where electric bus lines and streetcar lines cross eachother. It is possible to get around this though, and it has been done in San Francisco, but it is expensive and difficult.
-Robert King
And that is why you don't see many grade crossings where a trolley bus route runs on the street that has the crossing.
The Single End LRV's were built with a provision for pantographs should SEPTA ever decide to switch so I imagine it wouldn't take much modification on the cars themselves.
Cars, no. Overhead, yes. SEPTA does not want to spend the millions it would take to totally rebuild every foot of overhead wire. The Red Arrow wire was in such bad shape that the overhead rebuilding was a no-brainer. Plus, several operators were hit while changing ends, especially in Media. With pans, the operator does not have to leave the car to change ends.
Few weeks ago, TA run the test on the G with E F R and V in Queens and deciding whether or not they will keep the G running through Queens Blvd along with E F R and new "V". Does anyone have an update on that decision or know the test results?
Today I saw workers installing new traffic lights to control the new grade crossing on Franklin St. I also drove by the current terminal Franklin Ave and I saw PCC #16 was off revenue track, it was out of the turn-around circle and onto the new straight track, it also had the "Special" sign on. I don't know if they are installing gates at the grade crossings, are they required? Or is a traffic light enough?
Thank You
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I sent Dave some new photos which will be posted when he has the time.
Does anyone know when they are changing over to the new cars?...heard April 27 as the last day of the PCC cars, but then in a recent NYTimes article, it said in June they would do the change over...so which is valid????
Saw a sign while heading home yesterday. It was a yellow service notice for the E line. It said:
Shuttle between Continental Av and 57 St-7 Av via 63 St tunnel on April 14th between 10 am and 11:30 am!! Seems like a whole lot of disruptions are going to take place for just a lousy 90 minutes.
I have heard from some people that Microsoft is making a train simulation program. That will include lines from around the world and not just from one place. It will include some stuff (might possible the driving equipment to make the experience more real) Maybe my friends are pulling my leg about this.
So I want to know is it true? Is microsoft making a train driving simulation program?
If so then I am jumping up for joy cause I can finally drive a train without leaving my house.
Christopher Rivera
P.S. Long time no see everyone!
www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim. its been known for a while, i think thatsts the url, if not go to the games section on microsoft and click on "microsoft train simulator"
www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim. its been known for a while, i think thatsts the url, if not go to the games section on microsoft and click on "microsoft train simulator" PS BVE is GREAT FUN
I had a look at the screen shots a while back. It's weird to see an Acela passing a BNSF CW44-9. The crossties look fuzzy, the PRR overhead wires look straight, the coaches look like a metal box. You have to give them credit for at least taking the concept seriously, however.
I do have a question. They did all the software engineering for route-learning software for Britain's private TOC's. (Corus S/W Engineering did - a division of what was British Steel and Dutch Steel) Now why didn't they just use that code? The signals in that look much more realistic, and the track layout better represented. Granted with the Corus software the train look like it's running on concrete rails (grey texture, no crossties) but even that looks better than Microsoft's efforts.
By the way I reserve the right to go back and alter that judgment, primarily because I've only seen screen shots of either types of software and not binaries.
*Jerkey Mike does NOT write these*
This time, Cranial Rectal Inversion Part 2
I had so much fun with the first part and being there was such a
favorable response to it, I decided Part 2 was definitely in order.
Only this time, with a twist. All those management folks that lead us
around in this industry will be the focus of today's odyssey in
railroading.
Being that I was once one of them, I know how they can and do
think. Despite it all, some of them are actually really good people
and decent managers. But none of them however, are immune to CRI.
And those are the ones that will be the spotlight now.
We'll start by going way back to 1982 and the MoPac. In 82, the
BofLE staged a nation work stoppage, more affectionately known
as a strike. As we walked off the job for about four days, the "best
and the brightest" took over for us and attempted to move trains in
our absence. Within minutes, things started going straight to hell in
an handbag.
An Assistant Trainmaster who had several hours of training took
over a switch engine and began to play railroad. He promptly
shoved a cut of cars that he could not get stopped, out the north
end of a track in 8 Yard at Yard Center. As it would happen, he
shoved this cut right into the third unit of inbound Grand Trunk
Western train 385 that was on the lead. Did a considerable amount
of damage to the unit and almost turned it over on its side. Was
told later that the damage was in excess of $25,000. He later said
he didn't realize cuts of cars being switched could be so heavy. I
was there on the picket line and heard the collision and saw the
smoke. I immediately strolled up the Sibley Boulevard bridge that
spans Yard Center to have a look. Needless to say, everybody
knew about this within minutes of its occurrence.
Telephone, telegraph, telerail.
The next day, the Master Mechanic was running an engine and
again, couldn't get stopped in time. He blew by a stop signal in 2
Yard and ran through a dual control switch that was lined against
him. He tore right through that switch wiping it out and put the
engine on the ground.
What was big hit Willie Nelson sang? Oh ya, "On the ground
again..."
Later that same day, The Assistant Super and a Trainmaster took a
train over to the IHB at Blue Island. Or should I say, attempted to
take a train over to Blue. This Trainmaster would always brag about
not having ever been to an investigation in his ten years as a
Brakeman and Conductor in Kansas City. Obviously, he never got
caught. This day, he did.
On the IHB, there are two leads that we normally used to go to and
from Blue Island; Nine Lead and Five Lead. Nine Lead was used
for high cars as it was undercut lower under the ICG and School
Street overheads whereas Five Lead was used for standard height
cars and wide loads. See where this is going? They had loads of
autos in their train this day. They also went down Five Lead this
day. A bunch of trucks were converted into runabout convertibles
as a result of their chosen path.
Time passes and the strike is ended by an act of Congress.
However, during that little four day work stoppage, those in charge
completed millions of dollars in damage nationwide to locomotives,
freight cars and lading. Not a good year to be an official.
We move ahead another year to 1983. They send this guy up from
Arkansas as an Assistant Trainmaster. He is out to change the
railroad world. He did all right. One evening he is assisting the 2230
north end pull down job and helping them spot a track to the air
spot for the Carmen to work. He tells the Engineer he is in position
and to start shoving. On the very same end of the yard he is
located, another Grand Trunk train (386) is on the lead, this time
departing yard Center.
The AT is telling the Engineer on the 2230 that he still cannot see
the cut coming at him yet. The main reason he could not see the
cut rolling towards him was that he was watching the wrong track.
By the time he realizes his mistake, it is too late. 386's Conductor
sees the cars rolling at their caboose and yells to his Flagman to
abandon ship. The jump and the cut plows right into the side of
their caboose again, nearly turning it over on its side. Neither of the
men were injured, but they did manage to successfully land in a
large puddle of water. The caboose did not fare so well. It was KIA.
A MoPac caboose had to be substituted for the dead GTW
caboose and needless to say, the crew was none too happy about
this as compared to a GTW caboose, MoPac models were rather
spartan.
Now its wintertime 1983; December to be exact. It was a brutally
cold month and locomotive failures were up significantly. As a
result, trains were being delayed account of these motive power
problems. A General Diesel Foreman and a Laborer were
attempting to help out the Hostler by moving engines at the
roundhouse. Somebody overlooked an improperly lined switch and
they rammed a set of power right into the side of another set of
power rendering a considerable amount of damage to two units. To
make matters worse, they were both of Seaboard System lineage.
If I recall correctly, one was an SCL U Boat and the other was
Family Lines GP40. This meant the MoPac would have to pay for
all the damage repairs to somebody else's power.
Now we zoom ahead several years over to the IHB. A Trainmaster
there who is a nervous wreck is going to protect a shove at Blue
Island. He tells the crew to begin their move as he is in position and
they are "all lined up." Well, they were, except for the very first
switch involved. Here they come and shove they did, right into the
side of another job making a move on the lead next to them. Before
the move came to a stop, two cars were over on their sides. Well,
almost all lined up anyway.
Then, there are those events that take place while operating
company vehicles. As many of you are probably aware, the
common company vehicle is capable of "super automobile" feats of
which no ordinary car is capable. They can run for miles with the
gas gauge below "E", operate for tens of thousands of miles
without an oil change and with the oil and check engine lights
illuminated on the dash board. Just because a tire appears to be
low on air doesn't mean it really needs any air. It is just an optical
illusion. And of course, all company cars are equipped for all terrain
operation, even Crown Victorias.
So here we go; An Assistant Trainmaster at the MoPac
who was referred to as "OB1Canobee" drove like the yard roads
were in fact, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. They had a blue
Ford Bronco that the Trainmasters all drove. OB1 in a few short
weeks subjected the following episodes to said Bronco.
While backing up at a rather high rate of speed along the lead in 9
Yard, he backed right over a switch stand and ripped the exhaust
system off the truck. A few weeks later again while backing up
along side of a stopped cut of cars with his driver's side door open,
he got a little too close and caught the open door against a car in
the cut and mangled the door all to hell. He later ran over another
switch stand and tore the gas tank off. In yet another episode, OB1
also managed to rip one of the outside rear view mirrors off too.
After enough of these little events, they prohibited him from driving
company vehicles for a period of time.
A Car Foreman managed to total an almost new truck by also
driving like AJ Foyt. He was zooming down the road between tracks
five and six in 8 Yard at a frightening rate of speed. He hit a pot
hole and lost control. He slammed right into a cut of cars
demolishing the truck and severely bruising his ego.
A Trainmaster at Metra was using the Super's car while the Super
was on vacation. He managed to lose two sets of keys to the car in
less than a week and a locksmith had to come out to make
duplicates. Next, he tried to re-enact a scene from the "Dukes of
Hazzards" TV show. There was a cable gate on the access road to
the parking lot at Kensington. He had apparently figured that he
could just drive through that cable. Well, he was sort of half right.
One can drive through it, if one should desire to remove the front
end of said vehicle from the chassis. DOH!
A Trainmaster at the IC attempted to try and drive for 100 miles on
a low tire. When he was informed that the tire was low before the
trip began, he said it would be "Okay." Within 20 or so miles, the
tire blew out at highway speed. Fortunately for him and the crew he
was hauling, he didn't lose control of the car and was able to get
over to the shoulder and get stopped safely. However, he had no
key for the trunk and could not access the jack and the spare. So
instead of calling for roadside assistance, he chose to limp along
on the flat. He took the crew to a nearby yard and to get help for
the flat. By the time he reached that yard, the tire was completely
destroyed and there was nothing left to ride on but the rim, which
he had been doing for about a mile already.
Still two other officials took a John Deere Gator used by the Car
Inspectors for a joy ride in a swampy area in the yard. They were
zooming around in the mud when the door popped open and one
of them fell out and sustained a personal injury.
"Splain this one to me Lucy!"
And finally, there was the Trainmaster who tried to turn the Crown
Vic around in a rather tight location between two main tracks. He
managed to successfully get the car stuck on one of the tracks
which resulted in a 40 minute delay to an approaching train that
had to stop and wait for the car to be extricated.
"...Because I'm stuck on you."
So as you can plainly see, CRI is a disease that knows no bounds.
It does not differentiate between labor and management. It may
strike at anytime, anywhere on any day. Beware. Maybe we can
find a famous Hollywood celebrity to take up the cause and do a
telethon to raise money for research into this crippling disease.
Maybe somebody well regarded, highly trustworthy and an overall
pillar of the community. Someone like say Pee Wee Herman. Who
better to champion a cause for railroaders? Of course now that
Bozo is out of a job in Chicago, maybe we can get him to
spearhead this drive.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Yeah, Tuch writes these. Why not just post a link to the BLE division 10 website - or if you prefer to post it here, at least take out the carriage returns.
Why not just post a link to the BLE division 10 website
Why didn't YOU just post the link to the BLE division 10 website?
Sorry, I hereby apologize for being just as bad as Jersey Mike!
Me
Jersey Mike resents that statement.
OH CRAP! It was meant to be a joke!!!!!!!!
:-X
sowwy
So was mine; you have to work at it to get as bad as Jersey Mike.
I just realized you'd posted the wrong URL for the Hot Times. It's at http://div10.tripod.com/hot_times.htm and not where you said it was. But in any case the argument is futile because I don't think Tuch has actually updated that page yet. It might be because of my browser's cache fquing up, but that's typical of Internet Explorer.
I am posting lots of messages cuz I am bored. Has anyone killfiled me yet?
We're tempted, Lexcie, we're tempted :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Has anyone killfiled me yet? <<<
Isn't that like asking for a show of hands of everyone who is absent?
Tom
Done in government all the time as an accepted policy. :)
Isn't that like asking for a show of hands of everyone who is absent?
It's a way of pointing out to the people who are present that those who are absent are missing something :)
MANGEment is what happens when you give little people big jobs
Bombardier announced an eight week layoff of 100 workers at its Plattsburg plant. Some "transit advocates" fear this will delay bringing the R-142 fleet up to specs. Story in Friday's Daily News.
So now we understand there is a problem with the brakes. Exact nature of the problem.
Yeah, and the Kawasaki's had door opening problems (as in while a train is in motion).
BMTman
Whoooooops!!!!
The Bondo Squad will stay busy, that's for sure.
They will be for the next two months at least untill the workers are reinstated, and then for the duration of the lead time on the R142s when production is reinstated at that time.
I remember when the TTC's H6 subway cars were supposed to arrive and displace the old fleet of Gloucsters back in 1986. The H6 cars were such basketcases that they only started entering service in serious numbers by 1988, and it took until sometime in October of 1990 for enough of them to be in reliable operating condition to displace the last train of Gloucsters. So the Gloucsters had to hang in there for an extra four years, which wasn't really a big deal as they were in good condition; the paint was beginning to look spotty in places but that was about it. In actual fact, the idea of rebuilding the Gloucsters was briefly floated around but rejected because they were so old. Can you imagine in 1990 rebuilding a fleet of subway cars to last another 10 years or so untill the year 2000 or possibly later where the ventillation is provided by opening windows and the interiors are lit by incadescent lights?
Hopefully it won't take four years to sort out the R142/A business...
-Robert King
They should have just built more R62's as duplets and enough triplets
to cover the 3 and the 7.
They should have just built more R62's as mostly duplets and just enough triplets to cover the 3 and the 7.
Yesterday evening while transferring at Howard between the Red Line and northbound Purple Line, I was waiting on the platform as a 2-car Skokie Swift train was loading up and preparing to depart from its usual location.
A northbound 6-car Purple Line express approaches the station and slowly pulls in behind the Skokie train. The T/O pulls up as far as she can and then opens the doors. The problem? The last car of the train was still off the platform. I could tell because there was a very pissed-off looking man hanging his head out the last door and waving to get the T/O's attention. However, large numbers of people were getting on or off the other five cars by now, so he was difficult to see especially from the T/O's position.
I walked past the T/O's position as I got on board, and gently informed her that I think the last car of her train is off the platform. She said, "Really? Oh shit!" and sort of panicked even though there really wasn't a whole lot she could do at this point.
A supervisor ran down to the end of the platform and possibly had people walk through to the next car in order to get off. Luckily there were no blind, senile or otherwise impaired people in the last car who stepped off the train and fell four feet onto the third rail below. Eventually the Skokie train took off, allowing our train to close up, pull forward a bit, and open the doors again.
And my reason for riding the Purple Line yesterday? To buy a car, of all things. I found a nice 1997 Saturn SL2 (dark green, twin cam, 5-speed stick, sunroof, loaded, low miles) at a dealer in Evanston that I was interested in checking out. I decided to jump on it, and I go back this morning to find out what the finance companies have to say about my rotten credit history. Wish me luck.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's not a near disaster. It's another day on the railroad. Granted, it's not safe. Would you be complaining if you saw a van being driven with the door wide open through Chicago traffic?
Would you be complaining if you saw a van being driven with the door wide open through Chicago traffic?
If the van was crowded full of people? Absolutely.
It may not have been a near-disaster in the sense that somebody almost got dragged or that the train almost derailed, but it was a dumb mistake that could have potentially been a disaster. Luckily 99.9% of the people out there are smart enough not to step off a train where there's no platform. But it's that other .1% that are either too disabled, too stupid, or simply too close to the edge to avoid taking a spill onto the third rail, and these are the people who make lawyers salivate.
-- David
Chicago, IL
and these are the people who make lawyers salivate.
I agree, it was a very stupid mistake with potentially serious consequences. I would suggest the terminology is HROI, or a high-risk operational incident. The only problem is, if someone in the press picked the idea of an "HROI" up, I bet you they will make a story of it without even knowing what HROI stands for.
I don't know what to say, David - but I think that to say claim it was a near-disaster is more likely to arouse unwanted press attention than to say an HROI. What about simply "train stopped off the platform incident on the CTA"?
Lexcie
She couldn't wait until she pulled up to the 6 car marker ?
That ought to put the T/O out of service for a couple of weeks.
and this is the sort of behaviour that makes management want to buy fail-safe bells and whistles. If you can't trust the crews to do it right, (QED) then you have to prevent them from screwing up-WHICH sucks big time. The T/O in question should IMHO get a brief vacation w/o pay and some retraining time. There used to be signage along the platform indicating cars correctly. You are supposed to know how many cars are in your train, and should pay attention. If we have to automate the berthing positions, then we might as well go the whole way ala BART. T/O's are 'basicly back-up to a computer which does it all.
I agree with David #2, the use of "disaster" is wrong. David #1, if your goal in tallying up misses and near misses by TOs inorder to further the argument that CTA trains should be operated with two person crews--that will never happen and you are wasting your time. What Howard Street needs is to be remeasured and new berthing points should be posted so that a six car train can berth on track 3 behind a 2 car Yellow Line train. In this case maybe the Yellow had stopped short and there already is double berthing--then the TO is definately at fault. I'll make my calls Monday and it will be taken care of.
David #3.
David Harrison
I have no idea how to get this train simulator called BVE to get working. Can anyone help me? I would really appreciate it.
Look back a few threads. I had instructions but don't have to to post them again or look for them.
Who mentioned the BVE Yahoo Club? I can't find it.
Here, copy and paste this.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=211085
Derail: Why trains crash, by Nicholas Faith
as recommend on http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/
The book is totally crap. I don't profess to be a knowledgable professional in railway accidents by ANY means, however, I have spotted a few obvious errors in this book. For example, the description of the 1889 Armagh (Ireland) accident was sketchy at best, and inaccurate at worst, when compared with accounts written by experienced signalling engineers such as O.S. Nock.
The descriptions other accidents in that book throws the accuracy and the quality of research in the entire book into grave doubt. For example, the description of the Thrope single-track accident on p.44 was plainly misleading. The stationmaster wrote out a telegraph which, it was claimed, "clearly intending that it should not be sent." This was bollocks, as it was not unknown (although totally against the rules) at the time for unsigned notice to be sent out, and it was certainly not "clear" that it wasn't meant to be sent.
The description of psychological effects of accidents in Chapter 3 was also at best sketchy. It did not strike me as particularly professional or accurate writing (and I am judging this from having done a psychology degree at college) although I cannot pinpoint as to what precisely is wrong with it. I think it's because, with all due respect, Faith is a journalist and he talks around the subject of post-traumatic stress disorder without talking ABOUT it.
The discussion on the effect of journalism in chapter 2 strikes me as sensationalization. This is journalism at its worse: Faith had taken his expertise in choosing facts and slightly exaggerating them in order to make a good news story, and applied it in a book that is supposed to be factually accurate. This is ridiculous.
My apologies if this is a rant, but if anyone wants to publish a book about safety, at least get it checked by a engineer. I know that my own website is full of this kind of errors, but I haven't exactly put that into print. Yet.
Lexcie
That Armagh runaway was detailed beautifully in a book called "Red For Danger", along with numerous other British rail accidents. I liked the one at Abermule, Wales in 1921 where they didn't insert the right tablet in the machine and two locos went head to head. Of course, there are lots of other crashes in this book and all well written-up. Even the LU accidents (Tooting Bway, Stratford, Moorgate) are listed and reported.
wayne
E. HARLEM SUBWAY SNUB STIRS STATION FRUSTRATION
By TOM TOPOUSIS
NEW YORK POST
April 13, 2001 -- East Harlem residents are furious over the Transit Authority's plans for a Second Avenue subway that would speed through most of their neighborhood without stopping.
Early descriptions of the $12 billion project don't include a station at 116th Street, the heart of East Harlem's commercial district and a neighborhood on the verge of an economic comeback.
The nearest stations would be 19 blocks apart at 125th and 106th streets - the longest distance between two stops on any major subway line in Manhattan.
"We're outraged about that. Not to have a stop at 116th Street is ludicrous," said Geoffrey Eaton, chief of staff for Councilman Phil Reed (D-East Harlem). "To ignore 116th Street like we don't exist just doesn't make sense."
In a detailed description of the uptown portion of the subway that was distributed to potential engineering firms, the TA included a list of stations at 125th, 106th, 96th, 86th and 72nd Streets.
The request for proposals from engineering firms rankled Borough President Virginia Fields, who immediately demanded that 116th Street be added to the list.
In a letter to Fields, TA president Lawrence Reuter said a station at 116th Street hasn't been ruled out, despite the fact it didn't appear on the engineering proposal.
"Nothing is finalized yet," added TA spokeswoman Melissa Farley. "This is just the start of the process."
Lisa Daglian, a spokeswoman for Fields, said the borough president would continue to press the TA. "We'll strongly encourage them to put a station at 116th - as well as to make sure the Lower East Side is served."
The long-awaited Second Avenue subway has been on the drawing board since the 1950s. Design work is set to begin later this year and construction could start sometime in 2004.
"It's obvious to me that it's an example of transportation and economic racism," said Charles Stanley, who has lived on 116th Street since 1990. "Because this is East Harlem, there's not going to be a station here."
Stanley, who manages six East Harlem apartment buildings, said the neighborhood has become a hot property. On the eastern end of the street, a massive retail complex is being built with city and state help.
"For them to ignore this neighborhood is foolish and shows they don't know the area," said Stanley.
Why no stop at or near 79th Street?
Re: 79th Street: My guess is that besides the cost of extra stations, they want to speed up this two-car line by having the stations spaced far apart (although the omission of the 116th station is overdoing it a bit.) 79th Street is only seven blocks from both 72nd Street and 86th Street.
I think spacing of the stations is more important than the actual street location. For Instance: It would make sense to have the 72nd Street stop SOUTH of 72nd Street. For one thing, 72nd Street is thirteen blocks north of 59th Street (or 15 blocks north of 57th Street, depending where, if ever, they put THAT station). Secondly, a Station south of 72nd Street, that had more than one entrance, could effectively serve the hospitals on 67-68th Street, as well as Julia Richmond High School.
If this were done, then a 79th Street station wouldn't be as closely spaced. Similarly, the 86th Street station should be positioned at the north side of 86th Street to increase the spacing. Then, 96th, 106th, (116th Street, if built) should also be built with a northern orientation. If 125th Street was built on 125th Street itself, near to Lexington Avenue, the spacing would be just about right.
The problem is in the Manhattan grid, the two-way streets going east-west get kind of oddball between 42nd and 86th streets. South of 42nd and north of 86th they're spaced about a half-mile appart, which is probably about the right distance to space subway stops on your average Manhattan line. But from 42nd to 72nd, the two-way cross streets are 3/4-mile apart, and then you have three two-way streets (72nd, 79th, 86th) less than 3/4 of a mile apart. Screws up the ability to pair the subway stations with the major cross streets, though I'm guessing 79th got two-way designation due to the Central Park transverse, so it's really Mr. Olmstead's fault.
The IRT just said to hell with it on the Lex and put its stations at 59th, 68th and 77th streets (then said to hell with one of the major cross streets in East Harlem and picked 103rd and 110th over 106th), but the west side stations on the IRT and IND are bunched and split apart in spots due to the funky two-way layout.
though I'm guessing 79th got two-way designation due to the Central Park transverse, so it's really Mr. Olmstead's fault.
But why isn't 66th or 65th a wide street? There's a really big gap from 57th to 72nd. Then lets not forget other wierdness. 96th is treated as a one way eastbound street, because westbound the connection is at 97th on both sides.
The 65th street transverse is all wrong, it causes 65th and 66th to be reverse the direction they have to be (odd westbound, even eastbound).
The 79th Street transverse is normal on the East Side, but it connects to West 81st Street. What bozo allowed the Museum of Natural History to be built in the path of a main street? If it wasn't already wide, then why wasn't W 81 made wide instead? The layout of the transverse near the west end suggest that it was originally laid out to 79th.
And because eastbound M79 (old M17) busses have to turn on Amsterdam to get to 81st, West 81st is also a wrong way street.
And finally, the 86th Street transverse, normal on the West Side, connects to 84th and 85th on the East Side. Why would anyone think a street be wide on one side, and narrow on the other (110th excepted)? and why don't at least one of the connections on the East Side meet the same street they meet on the West Side?
And ending the park on 110th street also throws a monkey wrench into things. 110th is too close to 106th to be an important thoroughfare. It's only wide on the West Side because it was upgraded to become Cathedral Parkway. ALL of the subway lines have to skip 106th Street and have a 103rd Street stop instead because of this stupidity.
But actually the park's orignal plan had it ending at 106th Street. The extension was only done because they wanted that lake (the Harlem Meer) to be 100% in the park. They could have moved and reshaped the lake instead. THE Lake (the one whose name is actually The Lake) was designed by Olmstead, it wasn't naturally formed.
106th Street fits into a pattern of ten that extends from 86th Street to 155th Street and is only broken by one block between 116th and 125th Streets. I guess there is no wide street in the 160s because there isn't one in the 60s either.
But 106th Street gets no respect. With no subway stations, a part time East Side bus and a west side bus that runs there only because Morningside Park and Columbia U block 116th Street. Riverside Drive doesn't even come up for 106th Street, forcing it the indignity of the service road.
"But actually the park's orignal plan had it ending at 106th Street. The extension was only done because they wanted that lake
(the Harlem Meer) to be 100% in the park. They could have moved and reshaped the lake instead. THE Lake (the one whose
name is actually The Lake) was designed by Olmstead, it wasn't naturally formed."
Let's be grateful they did extend the park. There's enough concrete in New York. The subway shortcomings have been an acceptable price...paid long ago. No need to fuss about it now. Acceptable station placement can be worked out.
Let's be grateful they built the park in the first place.
Check out this map of the original Randel Survey.
Yes, miracles can happen.
Miracles can happen
Yeah, maybe the Second Avenue line will get built within the next 25 years.
The original concept of the 2nd Avenue line was to have long distances between stations so that it would be a speedy 2-track line. If you start adding stations, the line will be just a slowpoke local line, and people may avoid it.
Ideally, I would like to see the line as a 3 -track (reversible center track) or a 4-track one with the usual complement of stations. People would be more inclined to use it, and it would serve neighborhoods equally.
For sure, at least 3 tracks and better four. Too many replies to see if anyone else said so but IMHO ll6 st is a must.
[The 79th Street transverse is normal on the East Side, but it connects to West 81st Street. What bozo allowed the Museum of Natural History to be built in the path of a main street? If it wasn't already wide, then why wasn't W 81 made wide instead? The layout of the transverse near the west end suggest that it was originally laid out to 79th.]
I believe the site of the Museum of Natural History was part of the Central Park plan, along with its twin, the Met.
As to the location of the transverses, I suspect these things were seen from a different perspective when the park was designed, in horse and buggy days . . .
I believe the site of the Museum of Natural History was part of the Central Park plan, along with its twin, the Met.
They're not really twins. One is completely outside the park for one thing. And that one, the AMNH, was NOT part of the orignal plan at all, although the original collections of the museum were at the Central Park Arsenal before the current facility was built (or at least the initial part of it).
While also not part of the original plan, the Met was codesigned with Calvert Vaux (Olmsted's partner) and Jacob Wrey Mould in 1880 (about 15 years after the park was opened) and later than the Museum of Natural History. Since then, it has expanded its original building by encroaching onto the park many times, the latest in the 1980s.
[They're not really twins. One is completely outside the park for one thing. And that one, the AMNH, was NOT part of the orignal plan at all, although the original collections of the museum were at the Central Park Arsenal before the current facility was built (or at least the initial part of it).]
But my understanding -- and I may be remembering this wrong -- is that natural history and art museums, one on each side, were envisaged at the time Central Park was designed, and the parcel across CPW was reserved for the natural history museum.
West 81st is a wrong way street so that cars don't have to go to 82nd Street to head east. You can tell from the design of the intersection at 81st and Columbus though that it was originally designed to be a westbound street because eastbound viechles have to move right as they cross Columbus.
I do agree with you on most of that. Olmstead clearly wasn't thinking when the layouts were done since nothing goes directly parallel accross the park. Then again, look at the zoo here in DC or Mont Royal in Montreal. There are no straight roads or paths their either. Note a resemblence?
West 81st is a wrong way street so that cars don't have to go to 82nd Street to head east.
Why do you think I don't know?
Another set of wrong-way streets are East 59th and 60th west of 2nd for Queensborough Bridge access. East of Second they are in the correct direction for the same reason, and 60th is two way from 1st to 2nd, although only busses are allowed westbound there.
And there's 126th Street, as a Triborough Bridge exit and East 110th Street, so the busses can come off of Madison.
I think they should put a station at 79th Street too.
N Broadway Line
I thought the last stop was going to be at 68th Street? That means trains will go non stop from 72nd and 2nd to 63rd and Lex.
Please don't post articles from elsewhere verbatim unless you have secured permission to reproduce them. I am quite sure the Post's copyright prohibits reposting of its articles. Next time I'll delete it.
The line is supposed to be a limited stop deal. If they start putting stops wherever people want, they may have to upgrade the plans to a three or four track line to keep fast service as an option. Or do what the HBLR does and have some trains make 116th and other additional stops while other trains skip them. Not skip-stop, just have limited stop and express service.
IIRC one of the existing completed tunnel sections runs between 110th and 120th Streets. They would have to add the station at 116th unless they decide to deep bore beneath the existing tunnel.
Adding a stop near 79th Street would be making that line like the others. (1/9 79th St., B/C 81st St., & 6 77th St.). Seems fair the the 2nd Ave. subway users should also have it. Same with 116th.
After all these years and trouble, why can't they build this thing right the first time? Look what is happening with DC's 2-track system - they can't expand it. Does the MTA think that they will -never- need more than a 2-track, limited stop line on 2nd Ave.?
As someone who used to suffer for years taking the Lexington Avenue Subway from 86th Street, I'm of the opinion that ANY Second Avenue subway is better than nothing at all.
Yes...a four-track line would be better than a two-track line. However, a practical, less-costly alternative would be a three track line. Four-track lines are often overkill during non-rush hours.
But a two-track line with few stations, truncated as a "stubway", is, in reality, what is most likely to actually get built sometime this century. And I would welcome it with open arms.
[Yes...a four-track line would be better than a two-track line. However, a practical, less-costly alternative would be a three track line. Four-track lines are often overkill during non-rush hours.]
But during rush hours this line will be ludicrously overloaded once it's connected to the Bronx, as I think it inevitably will be. They need four tracks for the capacity as much as the speed -- the area it passes through is just as dense as the area the Lex passes through, so once the line is full length you can figure over half a million passengers a day.
IMO, building it deep bore 2 tracks is a *big* mistake.
[The line is supposed to be a limited stop deal. If they start putting stops wherever people want, they may have to upgrade the plans to a three or four track line to keep fast service as an option. Or do what the HBLR does and have some trains make 116th and other additional stops while other trains skip them. Not skip-stop, just have limited stop and express service.]
Problem is, what good is a subway without stops? Limited stops work nicely in outlying areas where you can have feeder bus service, but traffic on the East Side is too slow for that to be effective.
"Problem is, what good is a subway without stops?"
To take NIMBYs on a one-way ride out of NY? :0)
well, yes, the geniuses don't think we can afford either a real (full four track express/local) or full length Second Ave line. The corruption surcharge is so high that we will be lucky to get a marginally useful stubway. And if that happens it will fail to serve maxx quantities of the citizenry whose grandchildren will be paying off the bonds. (Note that we have twice before issued these bonds and all we have is three short tunnel segments.)
Actually, I think there's something wrong in the article. If I recall correctly, Document CM1188, the abridged document, lists 110th St as being on the plan. If that station site is adjusted northward (say, to 113th St or so) it may be able to substitute for a 116th St station. The 116th St station, according to some sources, poses significant engineering problems that a station a bit further south would not have.
I don't have more details than that. If anybody else does, please post there here.
[Actually, I think there's something wrong in the article. If I recall correctly, Document CM1188, the abridged document, lists 110th St as being on the plan. If that station site is adjusted northward (say, to 113th St or so) it may be able to substitute for a 116th St station. The 116th St station, according to some sources, poses significant engineering problems that a station a bit further south would not have.
I don't have more details than that. If anybody else does, please post there here.]
IIRC the tunnel has a strange profile at that point, inherited from the original dig. I thought the station was actually at 106th Street?
I can't say I blame the area residents, though -- there should be a station there, and every ten blocks or so, like on the other subway lines, and I think that's gradually happening as people react to the proposal.
I don't blame them either. I'm a little angry too, actually. But I hope this is resolved satisfactorily.
[I don't blame them either. I'm a little angry too, actually. But I hope this is resolved satisfactorily.]
I think it will be. The line started out with only a handful of stations, and it's now almost up to its full complement. That gap beetween 86th and 70th bothers me, though. It couldn't be in a worse place, unless they eventually want to add a 79th Street station.
The trouble is, this line may get the full complement, but it still doesn't have express tracks. Result: many rush-hour people will not ride it, and will still take the Lex Av express. If anything, it will only leech people away from the local.
I personally think 116 St, if worthwhile, should be the absolute last station added. It's already not much faster than the Lex Av local as it is. They should also at least add a provision for express tracks.
[The trouble is, this line may get the full complement, but it still doesn't have express tracks. Result: many rush-hour people will not ride it, and will still take the Lex Av express. If anything, it will only leech people away from the local.
I personally think 116 St, if worthwhile, should be the absolute last station added. It's already not much faster than the Lex Av local as it is. They should also at least add a provision for express tracks.]
I certainly agree with you about the provision for express tracks. The problem is that this should have been a four line subway from the beginning, and that really can't be solved by omitting stations to make the local a pseudo-express -- buses don't move fast enough in that area to provide local service, and what good is a subway if passengers can't board it?
[-- buses don't move fast enough in that area to provide local service, and what good is a subway if passengers can't board it? ]
Around there the buses could provide quite effective feeder service. I drove by that area about a week ago and I'd say the that M10x and M15 would solve the area's transit problems. Bottom line, there's nothing going on around 116th Street.
Arti
The tunnel segment that was built in East Harlem runs from 110th Street to 120th Street. The original 1970s-era plans had stations under Second Avenue at 106th-109th Street (called Franklin Plaza) and 120th-123rd Street (Triboro Plaza); thus there would have been eleven blocks between entrances. The new plan moves the station to 124th-126th and Lexington, thus lengthening the distance. Back in the 1970s, the MTA was committed to going into the Bronx; now they want 125th and Lexington, I believe, so they can make connections to the IRT while deferring the Bronx extension indefinitely.
The new plan curves off the original tunnel right at 116th and Second, so placing a station there would be more difficult than on a straight section. The line will curve at about a 45-degree angle and run diagonally under existing buildings in a deep tunnel.
I suppose the Franklin Plaza station could be adjusted so that it extends to 110th Street. A question that comes up with long stations always is: at what times of the day will the various entrances be open? When this station opens in 2010 or whenever, will there even be token booths?
Around there the buses could provide quite effective feeder service. I drove by that area about a week ago and I'd say the that M10x and M15 would solve the area's transit problems. Bottom line, there's nothing going on around 116th Street.
That's a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Why run a subway at all north of 96th if we can just terminate trains there and let people traveling to or from the north take a bus? (Hey, folks, this is sarcasm.)
Now for the serious stuff.
There should be a stop at 116th, because the line should not be a local-express compromise in the first place.
There should also be a stop at 79th for the same reason. I don't see why there hasn't yet been a larger outcry about the missing 79th Street stop. The gap between the adjacent stations is too long, and the neighborhood there is densely populated.
If the line is built as a local-expres compromise, it will be doomed from opening day. It won't offer the speed to attract current Lexington express riders, and it won't offer the coverage to attract those currently out of range of the Lex.
Built as the MTA seems to want it, this line would never see ridership levels to justify adding the missing tracks and making the line a full-fledged local-express trunk. This is unfortunate, because a line built properly from day one would match the Lex as far as utilization goes. If the line must be built as two-track only, it should have a full complement of local stops, to at least offer comparable coverage to other Manhattan lines. The alternative would be to optimize for speed, but building a true express line without a local alongside it is ludicrous.
Even if provisions are made for future local-express service, and by some miracle the line actually does get converted to four tracks in the future, the current station spacings mean that there will need to be severe disruptions to add the missing tracks and stations.
But, honestly, anyone that thinks that a two-track semi-local-semi-express compromise has any chance of being converted into a four-track local-express line in the future is being fooled. I can support the "take what you can get now and improve it later" mentality to an extent, but if we take this today, we won't be offered the chance to improve it in the future. I don't want to waste our money building a line that is guaranteed to fail in a very big way.
Obviously, a four-track line is the best option, but if New York can't get the Second Avenue subway that it deserves, then the project should be cancelled, and the money that was going to be spent on it should be poured into adding capacity to the Lexington line, where it will at least be useful.
Mark
If you look around the world, there are other design philosofies than the 19th century one deployed in NYC.
Very few modern systems have express tracks but sparsely located stations with other modes feeding them.
Another point is that deep bore design with cut and cover stations itself would force you to space stations more far apart.
Arti
>>> Very few modern systems have express tracks but sparsely located stations with other modes feeding them. <<<
Systems with feeder bus lines tend to be the suburban to urban model, with the feeder buses operating in the suburban area, and stops closer together in a destination center area. Feeder buses to a 2nd Avenue line in Manhattan would hardly be practical because of the traffic congestion. If anything, as presently planned, the 2nd Avenue subway becomes a feeder to the rest of the system for those going to or from the upper east side of Manhattan, rather than a mainline, but even without express tracks it would attract riders who would rather spend a few more travel minutes to avoid the crush loads on the Lexington Avenue lines during rush hour.
Tom
[Systems with feeder bus lines tend to be the suburban to urban model, with the feeder buses operating in the suburban area, and stops closer together in a destination center area. ]
Think of Eastern Europe, especially Moscow or Leningrad.
[Feeder buses to a 2nd Avenue line in Manhattan would hardly be practical because of the traffic congestion. ]
East Harlem is not that congested, also based on merely my observations anything below 34th Street would be doable and above 72nd. Main issue would be loading time, but using different or no fare control would take care of that.
Arti
One additional detail of note is that at least some of the new stations for Second Av (if the TA plans this appropriately) can be designed with covered bus bays near entrances to encourage "inter-modal" patronage. As example, look at how Jamaica Center station was designed; the rebuilding of 74thSt-Jackson Heights complex (improving access to existing bus terminal) is another example. Not every station on the 2nd Av line will have room for this, of course. Engineers can be very creative, if asked...
[Not every station on the 2nd Av line will have room for this, of course. Engineers can be very creative, if asked... ]
I could see taking one traffic lane for that.
BTW I'm surprised that you support intermodal solution in Manhattan.
Arti
"BTW I'm surprised that you support intermodal solution in Manhattan."
I think buses are very useful in Manhattan. I don't think that buses can take the place of a Second Av subway, or replace any other existing subway line in Manhattan or anywhere else, but once that subway is built, we'll need bus routes to interact with it. The subway can't be everywhere (and in Manhattan you have very few east-west subways, even counting 63rd St service and anything that might be added in future), and one of the nicest things you can do for transit patrons is offer them a bus which whisks them around the neighborhood, then drops them off at a covered bay (for sun, rain, and snow cover) right near an escalator or elevator to the subway. (OK, so Manhattan traffic precludes whisking - you do the best you can) Existing lines need that, too.
This kind of intermodal design helps the Jamaica Center station run better - in fact MTA is adding (or has finished adding?) more bus bays to it.
Wouldn't any east-west Manhattan bus loop inherently act as "feeders" to all the (mostly) north-south subway lines in the borough?
[Wouldn't any east-west Manhattan bus loop inherently act as "feeders" to all the (mostly) north-south subway lines in the borough? ]
I could say that M23 definitely does. Lot's of boarding at PAS and 8th Ave stop.
Arti
I see the release dates for these models has been pushed up to 5/15/01. At one point, it was pushed back to June.
When Chicago had a streetcar system, the Fire Department was equipped with a sort of bridge device that clamped onto each rail and served to temporarily carry streetcars over fire hoses, so that streetcar service could continue (or at least empty streetcars could be ferried past the fire scene) without cutting the hoses. The only reason I know about them is through a photo of one in a book on the Chicago Fire Deparment.
1) Does anyone else remember these? Especially in another city? I've done web searches, and found no reference to them. Certainly, there aren't any for sale on eBay, where anything legal to sell is sold. :^)
2) Do cities with street-running light rail issue these devices nowadays to their fire departments, or is rail service just suspended (or diverted, where possible) when fire hoses have to cross the tracks?
I used to work with a former Chicagoan, and he told me about those devices for getting trolley cars over fire hoses.
"Hose Jumpers" semmed to be a more or less standard item. IIRC, they were pictured in the c.1956 book "Trolley Car Treasury." Any sensible system keeps some quantity of ad hoc special work around. This was used in c.1975 to move trolleys where switchwork disn't exist after the Woodland Depot fire in Philadelphia.
I think I remember seeing a picture of the "Hose Jumper" device in New York City as well.
Never have seen them in San Francisco as I go there a lot (but haven't seen any fires....)
In this past Sunday's edition of Newsday there was a FULL-PAGE article on the Sperry Rail Service car #138 that is assigned to the LIRR track inspection.
It was very well done with a nice interview with the engineer and techicians who work on board SRS 138. One interesting aspect that was noted about the car is that it has all the amenities of 'home'. There is a kitchen, bathroom, and bunk beds on board. I was not aware that this railcar had 'camper' features. I doubt that SRS #403 -- assigned to the NYCT subway system has the same interior details (I'd be surprised).
The article was found on page A31 and was part of a section called 'The Roads and Rails of Long Island'. I believe it is a recurring column.
There was a nice b&w picture of the car on the Montauk Branch over by Mastic/Shirley.
Occassionaly, the SRS 138 can be found 'parked' over by the Far Rockaway Branch split just past Valley Stream station.
BMTman
Here is a list of R contracts through 1976 for purchases other than actual rolling stock. Source is "Passanger Car Data - 1947 to 1976" printed by the New Car Engineering Department.
R-2 trucks & motors for the R-1s
R-5 trucks & motors for the R-4s
R-13 track cleaning unit - never purchased
R-24 (2) wheel truing machines
R-25 (1) Wheel truing Machine
R-31 vacuum cleaning unit
R-34 Overhaul for R-11 Cars
R-39 120 El cars for BMT/IRT never purchased
R-50 2 Supply cars (never Purchased)
I was watching "Nightline" last night. The subject was the riots in Cincinnati, and the guests were New Prospect Baptist Church Pastor Damon Lynch (representing the point of view of the black people and neighborhoods) and Cincinnati mayor Charles Luken. During the course of the conversation, Rev. Lynch intimated that Cincinnati's biggest and most important problem right now is race-relations. Well, this is obvious. The news portion of the program reported that there is a great separation between whites and blacks, both physical and cultural, in Cincinnati. Also obvious, and similar to many other cities in the U.S. Rev. Lynch mentioned light rail development as one of the other less important issues focusing attention away from race-relations.
I would argue that anything drawing people out of the isolation of their cars and back amongst the rest of the world, as it were, for at least part of their lives, can only help race-relations. I realize, of course, that any new light rail system these days is usually meant for suburban-to-downtown commuting. It's not like Cincinnati will have a line going through affluent neighborhoods and poor ones alike. Most likely it will be in the median of a highway or some similarly shielded-from-the-squalor right of way, and packed with mostly suburban commuters.
Nightline contended that the complete lack of interaction between blacks and whites in their family lives is a contributing factor to the problem. It fuels both the anger blacks feel about so many black children being shot by white police officers, and the fear whites have of blacks in general -- fear which may influence young white cops' willingness to pull the trigger in perceived self-defense.
Though there is many an isolated suburb in the New York metro area, I contend that the use of public transport contributes to more harmonious, but by no means without any discord, race-relations. When we are prone to see so many different colors on the train, each heading off to their respective daily life, we are less likely to fear each other, and respect for our common values increases.
Okay, maybe this is a little too "Up-With-People." Please realize that I am speaking conceptually here, and that numerous examples of anger and fear can be felt here as well as in Cincinnati. But I think overall, there is a vast difference of outlook between our two cities. My wife and I have decided to stay in the city when we finally start our family, and one of the reasons is because our future children will not be isolated from the disparate cultures within New York, both the good and the bad aspects thereof.
You can be certain I will teach them all about the subway, and hopefully they will learn a little about the sidewalks above too.
I agree. A good public transit system that serves all areas of a metro area and all its people does a lot to bring people together. It may not make everyone love each other in a warm fuzzy way, but at least people will get a chance to get used to being around people who are unlike them. In fact, that's one of the reasons that I like to use transit whenever I'm visiting other places, is so that I can get a look at how all the different people there live, not just the other professionals who will be at whatever meeting I'm attending. I rode the trolleys a good deal on a recent trip to San Diego, and their system seemed to be used by a good variety of people, and it seemed to serve a variety of neighborhoods. This is really what is the key. The system has to be built fairly so that it doesn't leave out the people that other people are irrationally afraid of.
I hope some cool head in Cinncinati will prevail and demonstrate that transit can be good for race relations, and not something that takes resources away from relation improvement efforts.
>>> A good public transit system that serves all areas of a metro area and all its people does a lot to bring people together <<<
Hmm, I guess this a further critique of the movie "The Warriors." :-)
Seriously, I wish this were true, but doubt it. People riding the subways do not even make eye contact, much less get to know the ethnically diverse passengers. The NYC subways carried diverse ethnic passengers from 1904 until the 60's without stimulating any significant understanding of other ethnic groups. I grew up in New York and other northen cities, and never knew by name a single person of color until my senior year in high school. That year I attended a high school in a restricted community (no jews nor people of color could purchase homes) where the high school took students from the county orphanage, and one of them who was Black was on the football team with me. I knew no Blacks or Latinos socially until I joined the U.S. Army in the late ‘50s. At that time the U.S. Army was far ahead of the rest of the country in terms of integration.
The single thing that increased understanding and tolerance among ethnically diverse groups of Americans was the forced integration of schools in the ‘60s. This more than anything else exposed persons at a stage of development when their minds were still open to others of various ethnic backgrounds, and allowed them to view each other as individuals rather than an amorphous "them."
Tom
NYC subways carried diverse ethnic passengers from 1904 until the 60's without stimulating any significant understanding of other ethnic groups.
Riding subways together may not get the various races to like one another, or to interact socially, but it very well might help produce a basic level of tolerance. Half a loaf's better than none at all.
As a teacher I know what you mean. My high school has become majority Asian, mostly Chinese, and they are great students. But now we still have about 33% Anglo and about 12% Hispanic (which I have always considered at least half white if not more but the demographers insists on a separate category) and about 2% African-American. I find this to be very stimulating and exciting and a whole lot better than when the school was 99% vanilla. There is so much we can learn from one another if we only make the effort. And in reference to the person who said nothing of this sort happens on the train, I beg to differ. Someone has to make the first effort, and I usually do. I have had some very pleasant rides on the subway on my trips to New York because of that. People are people.
"My wife and I have decided to stay in the city when we finally start our family, and one of the reasons is because our future children will not be isolated from the disparate cultures within New York, both the good and the bad aspects thereof. "
This is what my parents did, I silently thank them for it nearly every day. I fell strongly about this and could go on and on, but I won't.
I commend you.
You make some good points ... while I'm definitely not anti-suburb, I'll be the first to concede that auto-oriented suburban life can be somewhat isolated in terms of mixing with people unlike oneself, depending of course on the particular 'burb. Isolation in this sense runs both ways, of course; the white suburbanites might have few or no dealings with minorities, while the minorities in the inner city areas may deal only with whites in positions of authority, e.g. teachers and police. And it's probably harder to hate people of a particular racial/ethnic group when you ride next to them each day on the train or subway.
I don't really know what to say about this one, although I was tempted to email Keystone Pete to discuss it. Unfortunately, he didn't post his e-mail. The issue is a wide one which can be looked at from many angles - not necessarily simply along racial planes. For example, in London, there are many rich "minority" people - and I use "minority" in quotes because the ethnic people have already began to outnumber traditional "whites" in London... now, the problem there is, no matter what colour you were, the people with more $ simply didn't mix with people with less $, even though everybody rides the Tube to work and only the very rich have a chauffer-driven car that takes them into London. However this had not led to mixed suburbs. There are areas like Brixton which are populated by low-income people(correct me if I'm wrong on this one) - predominantly blacks - but there are also places like Camberwell that are populated simply by the low-income - whatever the colour. Then you have places like Harrow on the Hill which is a mixture, and places like Kensington and Berkshire which is nothing but poshland. All the posh people in Berkshire use transit/trains to get to work, white or black, but low-income people don't live in Berkshire. Again, the society is still segregated.
*sigh* This phenomenon is called life... and I've taken to not worrying about it too much, because I live in the city center of Edinburgh and although I don't consider myself low-income, I live here cuz I liked it... (although those in the know knows that I'm moving soon.)
I don't think that the rich and poor will mix anytime soon, except under communism were nobody is rich or poor and everybody lives in the same crap. This has nothing to do with race. Personally, classifying people by the color of their flesh makes just as much sense as classifying people by the color of their eyes.
>>> classifying people by the color of their flesh makes just as much sense as classifying people by the color of their eyes. <<<
I can certainly agree with you there. Now if we could just figure out a way to get rid of those lazy no-good blue eyed people. :-^)
Tom
You know? Funny you should mention that. Back in the early 1960's the NY public schools had a sensitivity lesson where brown-eyed, green-eyed and blue-eyed kids were segregated out and made to feel like crap on that basis, and taunting was encouraged to prove the point of how silly it all was. It did educate some ... others seemed to really get into it and justified their other real-world hatreds of others based on their tauntings of the other kids.
If it weren't for the silly prejudices, perhaps ALL humans would gang up on the *RATS* ... nah, easier to battle each other I s'pose.
where brown-eyed, green-eyed and blue-eyed kids were segregated out and made to feel like crap on that basis
The only problem with that kinda lesson is, eye colour changes. It's not a permanent feature. For example, some green-eyed people develop a grayer shade if they had been in the sun a lot. Some blue-eyed people eventually become brownish-eyed when they get older. The blue kinda fades out giving a weird colour.
Sexist! Racist! Heh. But who cares? Brown-eyed, blue-eyed, white, black, brown, red, yellow, green ... so what? Are they fun to hang out with? I'm there!
So you see? I discriminate too ... I refuse to hang around the boorish. That's why I love hanging out with you and the other folks here. Watch the closing doors, please! Bing-bong ... bon-jour. :)
Simple and to the point Selkirk. That's it in a nutshell. I've found when I've visited New York and went to restaurants or rode the subways, or whatever, if I made it my point to engage someone in con-versation, which is my habit, the other side was almost without exception warm and friendly, regardless of race, color or whatever. In most cases, treat others with respect, show an interest in them and you will be repayed in kind. The only exception to that rule is the motorman who refused to shake my hand when I got off the Sea Beach with my railfan buddies two weeks ago. That was the first Sea Beach man who had ever done that to me. I hope they put that bum on the R train from here on in.
Probably had more than his snootful of folks at the storm door commenting on how he was doing. Dunno how many of you guys ever sat in a cab with kibbitzers outside the door but some railfans can become VERY annoying when you're trying to make a stop or fumbling with the radio to try and find out why they've decided to make you lay down somewhere. And most crew think we're absolutely nuts ...
I remember on some of my own trips, I wish we had been issued sidearms. :)
>>> The only problem with that kinda lesson is, eye colour changes. It's not a permanent feature. <<<
This is all the more reason to use it as a category to illustrate the phenomenon of unjustified discrimination.
Tom
The real problem with the lesson is that it's meaningless. You can teach it and intellectually,we all know that racism is wrong. The trouble is we don't always deal with things intellectually. We ALL have a darker side. I've heard this comment a few times before but recently a very close friend of mine said it to me. She said that even now, when she goes to the gym and is working out next to a white girl - she smells dog.
We ALL have a darker side. I've heard this comment a few times before but recently a very close friend of mine said it to me. She said that even now, when she goes to the gym and is working out next to a white girl - she smells dog.
???????????????????????????
Didja know that in the antebellum south it wasn't uncommon to use Yankee to mean inferior race- they may have been English and everything but they were descended from peasent farmers, the Southerners could boast of descent from the gentile Cavaliers.
(My email address is now posted.)
I wasn't exactly saying that riding the subway is like a United Colors of Benetton party. I was trying to speak to the lack of perspective. Considering I grew up in the whitest of white towns, I know a little bit about such localities' perceptions of minorities, public transport, and even New York City in general. My point was simply that it becomes easier to relate on some level to different ethnicities when you share something in common with them like riding the train. There's a good chance the person sitting next to you is heading to work near your place of business, or maybe even your same building. That in itself, while by no means making fast friends of the two of you, is enough to make you realize that you might be more of an "we" than you think.
BTW, I visited both Edinburgh and London in 1988 on a school trip. Maybe it was just the right place in the schedule, but I found Edinburgh was sort of a "party" town. Wonder why you're leaving. :O)
What you are talking about is 'bussing' for adults. Forcing the mixing of the races does little to promote racial harmony. My usual train makes (7) stops in Suffolk County. One would be considered mostly white, two would be considered mostly minority and the rest mixed. Despite that there is little racial harmony but rather racial tollerance on Long Island. While on an individual basis, racial harmony is possible and even common, the national trend is moving in the other direction.
As for the idea that throwing people together on mass transit will make them more accepting of each other - look at the #7 train or almost any train in the city. There ain't no brotherly love on the Flushing Line. The chinese get on first so they always get the seats. The Columbians get on and make lots of noise. The blacks get on in Jackson Heights and are bumped and jostled by the whites getting on in Woodside and Hunters Point. Of course the whole United Nations transfers from the N to the 7 at the 'Plaza.
Dude: Sorry to disagree with you for one of the rare times. I found riding the #7 to Shea Stadium a delight. I conversed with the Latins, Asians, Blacks, etc, and it has always been a good experience. As I've said before, if someone makes an effort, more times than not we will be satisfied with the result. Of course, there are those out there that dislike one group or another and nothing will change them. But I have to believe that those people are in a distinct minority.
Fred, you misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about a person who sets out to spread good will while riding. I'm talking about the day-to-day riders who despite being exposed to a virtual united nations still have the same prejudices they've always had. Riding the subways has not educated them.
Now I get it. Yes I agree with your last statement. I wonder why more refuse to make the effort to at least try to find common ground with people. It is a mystery to me. BTW, is the July 1 date still a go for the south side of the Manny B to reopen? Of course I'm still chapped because my Sea Beach is being kept off it.
July first is not in stone yet but B.C. is chipping away as we speak. OOOOPS - he's no longer politically correct.
Dude, it is a beautiful Easter Sunday out here in California, but as I read your post and saw B.C. mentioned I got a chill. Did you have to mention that rotten, no goodnick on such a great day. BTW. I would appreciate it if you would inform me just when the south side ofthe Manny B will reopen since you work for the TA and are more inthe know than the rest of us peasants.
The B.C. controversy has brought to light many inconsistancies in the liberal maifesto. On one hand, the liberals feel that mainstream America is not sensative to Native Americans because of some sport-team names. They feel that white police officers cannot effectively police black neighborhoods. Yet a comic strip that, despite the stated intent of the author, is found to be offensive to Jews and the liberals - not a peep. Hmmmmmmm - do you think there might be a double standard?
>>> The B.C. controversy has brought to light many inconsistancies in the liberal maifesto <<<
What B.C. controversy?
Tom
The writer of the B.C. Comic Strip wrote an Easter strip that, to some, seemed anti-Semetic. When the story broke on Wedneswday or Thursday, a small number of newspapers opted to pull the strip from their Sunday edition. Most decided to publish it despite the perceived Anti-Semetic slant. While I have my own thoughts about the strip and the author's intent, I was musing as to what if it were offensive to blacks, hispanics, orientals or native americans. Would the newspapers have such a casual response?
A few weeks ago we debated the 'names of sports teams' and some names were believed to be, in some quarters, insensative. Where are all the liberals this week?
Pulling a comic mid-week is not all that easy. By that time the comic sections have all been delivered to the stores.
This one should never have made it into print; however, considering the source, I'm not surprised at its content. I suspect that Johnny Hart, had he lived in Germany in the 1930s, would have been one of Hitler's good friends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Valid point. I'm certainly not supporting the strip, and, yes, it probably should not have made it into print. Once printed, however, it isn't as easy as most people seem to think it would be to delete it. Does anyone at the newspapers proof the comics for contents before they are printed?
Gary: I'm not a Jew but the anti-Semitic slant of that strip was unmistakable--period. The powers that be should have had enough sense to prevent that from being published. I've also had my antenna out in recent months and the liberal press has ganged up all over Israel and implying that it is they that are hindering the peace process in the Middle-East. What crap. Israel is under attack for its very existence and those of us who are pro-Israel are getting more incensed by this nefarious assault of Jews in Israel and those here at home. Somebody had better wake up and quick.
Ganging up on Israel is a worldwide sport.
How is it anti-Semitic to say that the Arabs have the right to the land? The Arabs were there for 1,200 years and the Jews were not the first ones there to begin with. Arabs in Israel do not have the same rights as Jews and the no one has a problem with it. The only reason the US ever suppurated Israel was out of guilt and a desire to re fight the crusades 99.99% of Americans did not have a clue as to what was going on in NAZI Germany and our ambassador to England was anti-Semitic pro Hitler and was more concerned with his own importing business then anything else.
Fred did not say anything about "right" to the land. By the way, how much "right" do you have to your land? After all, the Indians were in your land first. And would still be around to protest were they not all killed or die from exposure to European-derived diseases. So why, for the sake of justice, don't you move back to Europe, Asia, Africa, or wherever your forebears came from?
He has a legitimate point.
A Native American can live in the United States with the full complement of rights afforded to any citizen if he or she so chooses. A Palestinian cannot do the same in Israel.
So why, for the sake of justice, don't you move back to Europe, Asia, Africa, or wherever your forebears came from?
How far back do you go? Do you go back ten years to when your parents lived in New Jersey, do you go back 100 years when your great-grandparents lived in Europe, or do you go back 1 million years to when all of our ancestors lived in Africa?
I am a sabra (born in Israel) and my parents fought in the Haganah during the War for Independence in 1948. My father spent WWII bicycling around as a messenger and ad-hoc spy for the French Underground, and I lost a grandfather in a concentration camp.
Frankly, I no longer care who was where first. Israel has a nuclear deterrent force of adequate size and sophistication to eliminate the threat of Arab invasion. At this point, Israel can take pragmatic steps, even as Arab govts are not able to, to defuse this crisis, empower Palestinians to run their own state (or fail while trying -success is not guaranteed) and reduce the theocratic tendencies of ultra-religious forces in govt. Israel refuses to do so, and I, for one, am dismayed at the way both Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are treated. It doesn't have to be this way.
Never underestimate the power of money to triumph over ideology. Economic concerns are much more likely to bring about a resolution of the Palestinian question than are the incessant blatherings of politicians.
Israel's dynamic, high-tech economy has been losing some of its lustre at least in part because of the Palestinian uprising. Violence scares away foreign investment, disrupts production and transportation schedules, and causes many tourists (a big part of the economy) to go elsewhere. Conditions may not be too bad just yet, but the trend lines definitely aren't favorable.
The uprising has been disastrous to the Palestinians' economic well-being. For all intents and purposes, the only economy in the West Bank and Gaza consists of wages earned in Israel. With the borders closed for increasing periods of time, these wages have vanished and conditions have become worse and worse. And it's not as if other Arab countries providing any financial support.
As a result, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Israelis and Palenstinians put aside some of their ideological differences and start talking turkey, so to speak. Ideology is ideology, and religion is religion, but money is money.
Amen to that! I like your thinking.
Unfortunately, Western thinking occurs mainly in the west. It does not always take front seat in the wild east. And it might be presumptuous to think that everyone thinks the way you do, acts the way you do, and has the same values as you do, no matter if both you and I consider them to be lofty.
True True
"Violence ... disrupts production and transportation schedules"
Does anyone know if the prospect of sabotage and attacks is one of the reasons there isn't passenger rail service to Jerusalem? The distances and the size of the cities involved (Tel Aviv, Haifa, etc.) fairly SCREAM for passenger rail service otherwise. Israel has considerable passenger service along the urbanized coast, so it's not like rail is an unfamiliar or unpopular mode of transport in Israel.
I'm pretty sure there is a passenger train between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. It's just really slow, so much so that it's faster to take the Egged bus.
This may be railfan heresy, but in fact in the year I spent in Israel, I never once rode the train!
:-) Andrew
There's an old joke that says (more or less) that, Israeli trains are so slow that when an Israeli freight train derails, the train takes a poll of passerby to see which way the cars should tumble.
Those are the Greek trains, my friend.
In Germany or France, if a schedule says a train is going to depart at 10:00 AM, the train will depart at 10:00 AM no exceptions.
In Greece, if a schedule says 10:00 AM, it just means that the train may stroll in sometime that morning, provided there are no wildcat strikes.
Kinda like Amtrak.
Ron, you sure are out of date. Israeli trains run on-time, not Israeli time, but real time. And in the Haifa-Binyamina-Tel Aviv corridor they are frequent. Get with it.
OK - Good news if true
is there really a train with that route? its probably along national route 1, am i right?
I know from the past that Israel Railways provides a route map, however it seems to be down right now, so I can't confirm.
Interesting, thank you anyways
It's up now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The service has been discontinued. It was out-of-date. Like elsewhere, the politicians are arguing about how and where a new, modern route should be built. Don't expect it anytime soon. On the other hand, rail passenger services have greatly expanded over the past 8 years, with service from Nahariyya in the north to Be'er Sheva' in the south, also to Qiryat Gat, Rehovot, and Rosh Ha'Ayin in various central parts of the country, and with very frequent service to the in-between places and new, modernized stations at Tel Aviv University and Hof Karmel in Haifa.
they got a pretty good bus system in israel.
Sure, whenever it doesn't blow up.
Oh boy, LOL, its sad but true,but seriously it is a good network of bus service, intercity and intracity, The israeli army is the 4th largest in the world, equipped and ready to go, when my father used to serve he used to tell me how sharon when general would take two tanks and tie a chain to each of them across and plow down arab towns with it where suspected terrorists live (every arab town)
That's just great. Brag about tearing down thousands of innocent people's houses while trying to catch a few terrorists.
i aint bragging, im just telling people what happened, that message had a neutral atmoshpere
Pigs, I know that you always try to get your facts straight and really make an effort at it. But on this topic, well, things are not always so simple as the information provided by the media. About the lack of rights, did you know, that through inadequate enforcement, that in some towns Arabs have rights that Jews don't have (and you don't have): to not pay their property, sewage, and water taxes? But the Interior Ministry provides improvements according to collected taxes. Now figure out where that leads.... Also, did you know that in Israeli government service, there is reverse discrimation in which the Finance Ministry provides for immediate hiring of Arabs and other minorities to tenured positions, whilst Jews must have a long life-span, among other things, to be allowed into tenured positions? There is still much work to do. But please do not repeat your sweeping generalization.
I'm a liberal, and also a Jew who is intrisically pro-Israel. That can sometimes be a difficult mix. I went to Columbia in the early 1990's, and the major Liberal student organiztion was allied with the Arab student organziation. I went to a couple of meetings and there was a lot of anti-Israel rhetoric. I tried to state my own case but my views were not welcome. My views supporting terretorial compromise were equally unwelcome among the majority of Jewish students. I did join a small organization on campus, a chapter of the Progressive Zionist Caucus, and ran it for a semester, and even got the Arab and Jewish student organizations together for a meeting with a guest speaker.
My basic belief is that Israel has a right to exist AND the Palestineans have a right to their own state. The basic problem is: The whole land is Palestine AND the whole land is Israel. I don't think that should be the guiding principle, but it is a reality of the mindset of both Israelis and Palestineans. Even so, there certainly can be terretorial compromise. A Palestinean state is pretty much a foregone conclusion in my mind as an eventuality, and I feel it should be in all of the the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank.
The peace deal Clinton tried to broker in his last days of office made me somehwhat uncomfortable, but I do aggree with the spirit of the proposal, and I feel it was a heroic effort on Clinton's part. But Arafat, he really blew it. He could have had 99% of his stated demands. He could have had his state, and just about every part of East Jerusalem that matters. But when all is said and done, it became clear that he has no intention of making real peace. His bluff was called, and now his true colors are shown. I STILL believe a Palestinean state is the ultimate solution, but there will have to be some big changes in PLO leadership (and now, also Israeli leadership) before any more real progress is made towards such ends.
That being said, Israel is guilty itself of some sins. There is no reason an Israeli Arab citizen can't enjoy all the same rights as an Israeli Jew. And Palestineans in the terretories don't have realcitizenship anywhere, which is not acceptable. (It's also not acceptable that not a single Arab country save Jordan has done a thing to absorb the Palestinean refugees in their own borders.) And currently Ariel Sharon's Israel soes seem to be pursuing the old Likud strategy of trying to reverse as much of the peace process as possible.
So there. My ideas may not have been organized too well, but you get the point.
I think you wrote well, actually. The huge gulf between Arab in the street and Arab in the presidential palace (which can also include spoken dialect, never mind education) contributes to this mess.
When I was at the Univ. of Miami in the 1980's, I learned a lot from listening to visiting Algerian students present the Palestinian point of view. I had never heard it before, near-first-hand like that. It was quite an education.
A friend of mine and I were discussing this recently, and one thought I kinda had was, if the situation really is as hopeless as sounds at times, just let them fight it out and may the best man win. But on the other hand there was something saw on one of the cable news channels that had gave me just a bit of optimism, a school in rural Israel, where it was integrated, from the faculty to the students and it's all good. It's a shame that these children will have to eventually grow up and be polarized against each other, but my hope is maybe they will remember from their school days that they can co-exist peacefully, and dare I say amicably.
If only we could have more of that.
I'm a liberal, and also a Jew who is intrisically pro-Israel. That can sometimes be a difficult mix. I went to Columbia in the early 1990's, and the major Liberal student organiztion was allied with the Arab student organziation. I went to a couple of meetings and there was a lot of anti-Israel rhetoric. I tried to state my own case but my views were not welcome. My views supporting terretorial compromise were equally unwelcome among the majority of Jewish students. I did join a small organization on campus, a chapter of the Progressive Zionist Caucus, and ran it for a semester, and even got the Arab and Jewish student organizations together for a meeting with a guest speaker.
My basic belief is that Israel has a right to exist AND the Palestineans have a right to their own state. The basic problem is: The whole land is Palestine AND the whole land is Israel. I don't think that should be the guiding principle, but it is a reality of the mindset of both Israelis and Palestineans. Even so, there certainly can be terretorial compromise. A Palestinean state is pretty much a foregone conclusion in my mind as an eventuality, and I feel it should be in all of the the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank.
The peace deal Clinton tried to broker in his last days of office made me somehwhat uncomfortable, but I do aggree with the spirit of the proposal, and I feel it was a heroic effort on Clinton's part. But Arafat, he really blew it. He could have had 99% of his stated demands. He could have had his state, and just about every part of East Jerusalem that matters. But when all is said and done, it became clear that he has no intention of making real peace. His bluff was called, and now his true colors are shown. I STILL believe a Palestinean state is the ultimate solution, but there will have to be some big changes in PLO leadership (and now, also Israeli leadership) before any more real progress is made towards such ends.
That being said, Israel is guilty itself of some sins. There is no reason an Israeli Arab citizen can't enjoy all the same rights as an Israeli Jew. And Palestineans in the terretories don't have realcitizenship anywhere, which is not acceptable. (It's also not acceptable that not a single Arab country save Jordan has done a thing to absorb the Palestinean refugees in their own borders.) And currently Ariel Sharon's Israel soes seem to be pursuing the old Likud strategy of trying to reverse as much of the peace process as possible.
So there. My ideas may not have been organized too well, but you get the point. It is possible (if difficult) to be pro-Israel and espouse liberal views.
:) Andrew
See now I have visited the Palestenian autonomous territories in Israel, apparently Palestenian residents can work for same wages as israelites and not pay taxes, or open up their buisnesess with no tax dues and even given government loans. Anyone who has lived there (israel) or is farmiliar with the region knows that Israel is this small country who gives everything to everyone, you get gov't money if you're a single mother, a widow, a relative of widow of veteran, even if you fought in WWII in an allied country you also get money for "fighting against fascism", etc etc etc , it goes on and on and on and on, lets face the facts, has anyone visited the terriotiries? they would know there are two kinds of people, those who live on the street and panhandle, and those who are extremely rich buisness arabs who feed off of israeli (part of it is US) MONEY. If they had a palestenian state, the people who were rich will go poorer and those who are poor will either stay that way for sure or get below where they are now, This is what I concluded after several visits there. Israel is a beautiful country which quickly built up and modernized over just 50 yrs, and it lacks only one thing, territorial stability, this country cannot loose because it cannot regroup, in no way is Sharongoing to give up ANY part of Jerusalem. Does anyone know about the life on Territorial Jewish Settlements before this goddamn mess? Arabs trade with jews, one guy buys something from another guy and vise versa, no one complained until SOMEONE GOT TIRED OF NOT HAVING ANYTHING TO BITCH ABOUT, so everyone started tossing stones, thats all I can say.
I'm starting to believe that the Palestinians don't want peace but just want to drive Israel into the sea. It will never happen.
u damn right, cant argue with a deaf mule as Omar Bradley used to say
It's not a concern. Removing that from the table is important to real negotiations.
I think most Palestinians now realize that they will never regain their original homes and land in today's proper Israel and are willing to negotiate from that assumption. There are, however, a few sticklers who will fight that point tooth and nail, to whatever detriment.
True enough.
It's not a concern to you. You don't live there. It is a very real concern of very many that do.
"It's not a concern to you. You don't live there. It is a very real concern of very many that do."
That's nonsense. This bunker mentality is as ridiculous as the opinion in the streets in the poorer sections of Cairo that "Israel will be driven into the sea." Both Israelis and Arabs need a lot of re-orientation. What makes me disgusted and angry is that Israel has the capability of accomplishing this, even if Arab countries don't (yet), and refuses to do so.
Again, ridiculous to you because you resent part of your past and your entire present is not there. You also ignore the fact that Israel is 8 miles wide at its center. You also ignore the fact that the former prime minister made sweeping concessions, but the other side could or would not make any of its own.
"Again, ridiculous to you because you resent part of your past and your entire present is not there."
Wrong. I don't resent any part of my past. In fact, I have family living in Jerusalem now (a grandmother, uncle and aunt, cousins etc.) and I am concerned for them. My concerned is heightened by Israel's rather foolish approach to this problem. Israeli policy is endangering my family.
" You also ignore the fact that
Israel is 8 miles wide at its center."
That was relevant up until 1973. After 1973, when Syria understood that to continue to invade through the Golan Heights and into Israel (the Israeli armor reserves had been nearly exhausted) was to invite a nuclear holocaust on Damascus, it became less relevant, and today it isn't relevant at all. The hollow basis for a good trading chit or a bluff, but militarily meaningless."
" You also ignore the fact that the former prime minister made sweeping concessions, but the
other side could or would not make any of its own. "
That is simply not true. In fact, Arafat made several important concessions. You could legitimately argue that Israel made more concessions than the Palestinian Authority - but Israel can easily afford it.
Uhm, that's in the PLO charter. They are commited to the absolute destruction of Israel. It is/was one of the key issues. Whether it was removed or not after the first round, I'm unsure.
-Hank
That was removed from the charter. It's old news.
Just as the Civil Rights Act of 1965 didn't end discrimination against blacks in the US, just because it's written (or no longer written, in this case) doesn't mean popular opinion will change overnight.
-Hank
Very true. But I don't see the kind of support for the spirit of equal rights in Israel as I have seen here (albeit imperfect).
I personally boycott all Israeli products. If it helped to end apartheid in South Africa, there's a tiny hope in the back of my mind that it may help to do the same thing in Palestine.
killfile time
I don't expect you to necessarily agree with me, but please respect my right to express my personal opinion.
I respect your right to express your opinion and here is my opinion. I would boycott Palestinian products if I could, but since they don't produce anything but rocks I can't. Come to think of it, maybe I can help get their economy started after 50 years. Since they seem to be so good with rocks maybe they should exporting them. Maybe we can bring back pet rocks into favor. If they export big big rocks we can use them to let all you Palestinian lovers use them to crawl under. Now do you respect my right to express my opinion, too?
I think you just swung the axe a bit too far. Cut flowers and citrus are important Palestinian export products, and there is a nascent software industry. Stay away from stereotypes; they're usually wrong and detract from the quality of the discussion.
If the Palestinians can get their act together, they can try to market Gaza Airport as a cheaper freight shipping location than Ben Gurion. Trade services can be an important source of income.
If they get their act together.
If they get their act together? Well I don't believe they will get their act together during my lifetime. I've been hearing that for decades, and all I can say is that the Palestinians never feel to miss an opportunity. They wish Israel to go under and until I see evidence to the contrary that's the position I will take. Jews, for the most part, went quietly to their deaths in WW II because they could not comprehend evil so malignant that it would mean their end. Israel was born in blood in 1948 and they've learned their lessons well and they are not going to let anyone come and try destroy them. The Palestinians want peace? Then they had better recognize Israel's right to exist. PERIOD!!!!!!!!
They can't export rocks, they are too busy throwing them at the Israelis when they aren't firing bullets or throwing bombs at them and cursing America all the way. I have an idea, now that the cold war is over, America should give the green light to Russia to take Afghanistan and give those people something to REALLY worry about.
I can't believe how racist this guy is...
I can't believe how racist this guy is..
Arabs, and to some extent Muslims in general, are just about the only ethnic/religious group that remain fair game for scorn and jokes, at least in the United States. Hopefully that'll change some day, but don't hold your breath.
Just don't forget that 25% of Palestinians, including Arafat's wife, are Christian. Most Americans forget that.
Most people also don't know that Arafat is going to be the guest of honor and the keynote speaker an a terrorist convention April 25 & 26. Ooooooh, did I say terrorist? They call it the Interfada meeting or some such nonesense. Get ready for an escallation in the mid-east violence. looks like you and the other Hitler youth will have more ammo for your slingshots.
I never said I approve of Arafat personally; in fact if you look at all of my posts in this thread I actually condemned him. But what does that have to do with the Palestinian populace?
he is suppposed to represent their interests, he is doing a good job im sure *cough cough*
Dude: That is what I cannot fathom. There are people on this site who actually believe the Palestinians want peace with Israel. They do not. They want Israel destroyed. I was never a Clinton fan, all know that. But I did admire his attempt to try to broker a peace between the P's and the I's. Guess what? The P's pissed it all away with their unreasonable demands. Until I see a different attitude on the part of the P's I will not alter my beliefs one inch.
Yet again the popular American misconception that every Palestinian is exactly like the ones amongst those whom the American press chooses to display. For your information, there are Palestinians who want Israel destroyed, but there is also the vast majority of Palestinians who want to live side by side with Israelis in Peace, as is the view of most Israelis. Stereotyping on your part is not going to help either side.
Unfortunately, Arafat is not one of the latter.
-Hank
I like America because its good
I like America because we can do exactly what we are doing here.
-Hank
What you should be doing Hank is celebrating Sea Beach Day, which I proclaimed a few hours ago. So start celebrating.
And that's another good thing about America. We have the freedom to celebrate Sea Beach Day!
That's right! In Russia they'd all force us to bow down to the West End line!
;-D Andrew
No. The 1/2/3/9.
In Boston, they would bow down to the West Boston Line and Dorchester Extension and Mattapan-Ashmont Line.
In Washington, it would be the Shady Grove-Glenmont Line.
In LA, the Subway was built by communists.
Well said. You get an "A" for the course. I remember in college, the story of the professor rhetorically asking the class "Why do we study Shakespeare?" One drugged student raised his hand to answer, "We study Shakespeare because it is good."
lol cute, no i just felt like stating the obvious
So what, DOESN"T IT Bother you that Arafat ordered Americans KILLED
If Arafat ordered American's killed; that bothers me. But what has that to do with the Palestinians's right to human rights? Should a nation be held accountable for their unaccountable 'leader'?
YES
Arafat doesn't want peace either. Anyone who thinks so is nuts. He is as phony as a four dollar bill. What's more, he cannot or will not control those loonies of the Intifada, or whatever those jerks call themselves.
You got that right, Fred! That bastard Arafat and his goons will not be happy until Israel is no more. And those whackos who call themselves the Intifada (terrorists to the rest of us) will not stop until they completely destroy Israel. The PLO and Arafat don't want peace and those bastards can't be trusted.
My mother used to work for a guy whose wife was active in various Jewish organizations. This woman was proud of her religion, and "proud of her race." She talked constantly of how the "blacks and browns" weren't worth squat, and she would just "do away" with all of them. Her husband was proud of the fact that he had a big shotgun at home and would have taken satsfaction in nailing a "n---" during the Watts riots had they tried to invade his home.
By your logic, all the Jews in the same civic groups should be held accountable for these two idiots.
Ron, do not draw conclusions that since your mother freely associated with assholes - that my logic is somehow flawed. You are stretching to provoke a response that you won't get. On the other hand - we can say something about your mothers integrity or lack there of. She wasn't to proud to take their money despite their reprehensible ideas. Or did she agree with them?
She didn't agree with them actually, and left their emp[loy shortly after the dinner party where they spouted off.
But your're proposing that one asshole speaks for everybody in his group (even millions). That is clear. It's also a convenient way for you to sweep away a large group of people with your hand and condemn them. That sounds pretty stupid to me.
When it's their leader, that is the case. The leader is supposed to present the majority opinion, because it is supposedly they who have elected him/her.
-Hank
Well bush is a idiot and I sure didn't elect him.
In the case of Palestinians that is an unrealistic expectation - you expect their electoral system to work at our standards. Even you must know it does not, so why unfairly condemn each of them as is the offered implication?
Let me chime in and say once again that Ron's posts haven't been at all stupid. They have been some of the most thoughtful and reasoned thoughts on this whole thread. And this time as well as others, he had a good point.
:-) Andrew
>>>Should a nation be held accountable for their unaccountable 'leader'?
>>YES
Train Dude: This is a very complicated issue of public responsibility that is nowhere nearly as simple as you seem to believe. A cruel and inhumane dictator with considerable public support (Hitler, Mussolini, Milosevic - he was clearly an ethnic/religious bigot and clearly reponsible for thousands of deaths no matter what you believe about an American role in the Balkans) should definitely be on the public's conscience. However, would you like to be held personally responsible to what every elected official does? People are individuals. Would you like to personally pay (with everything up to and including your life, since you are concerning Israeli-Palestinian relations) for what our leaders what done? Clinton? Bush? the Senate?
This is what you are asking be done - you cannot hold every Palestinian for what Arafat (who in any case, for all his stature, is an ineffective, bumbling figurehead) does, any more than you can hold every Israeli for what even the most militant Israeli presidents and military commanders (there have been very well-documented unprovoked massacres of civilian Muslim Israelis in the country, of which Deir Yassir is probably the most famous) have done.
-cordially
turnstiles
Very well put, turnstiles. A mature and well-reasoned analysis.
BTW: It is Deir Yassin you are referring to - an aberration, an exception to the rule in Israel, thankfully, but one the country has not even begun to deal with. And it was all the more heinous because it was entirely unnecessary.
America dealt with the massacre at My Lai (perhaps inadequately); it did not reflect the norm of the American army in Vietnam.
Dont Compare the United States situation in in French IndoChina,and definetly dont compare apartheid in RSA, and dont start BSing on how some people compare Israel to England in their so called "economic situation in India" These people are give Huge opportunity , oh never mind, I'll trat those arabs like I treat a Train Yard, Bomb it ruin it, destroy it.
Well, Seven, I guess if we gave you the opportunity to nuke everybody you considered a political enemy, then you could solve many of the world's problems! Get rid of Cairo, Damascus, Beirut (what the hell, a good Arab is a dead Arab, eh Seven , right buddy?). While you're at it, China and India are overpopulated - why not do a little population-adjusting there with nukes, too? Fewer mouths to feed, you know.
I think My Lai and Deir Yassin are very comparable - and a lot of scholars agree. It's too bad, really, because the US could have learned that lesson watching what happened in Israel. But we didn't. Israel itself repeated the mistake and allowed the SLA to massacre civilians in refugee camps in the early 1980's - and senior Israeli officers had direct complicity there. But this is Israel we're talking about, so nobody went to jail who should have. But at least there was a public investigation in that case.
Sorry Seven; I believe I'm tolerant of others' opinions which I do not agree with, but you have added no logical argument to support your views, but instead have only spouted ignorant hate; so I feel justified in putting you in my killfile, which I thought I would never use.
Ron: It is a very encouraging and hopeful thing to hear that Deir Yassin was an aberration.
I must say that contrary to a number of other individuals that I have been observing on this site for the past several months, you seem to have a most balanced approach to a number of concerns, including Israel and race (two of the trickiest, indeed!) Also, considering that you have Jewish ancestry in your immediate family makes this all the more significant. Contrary to what a few have recently said concerning a few of your posts, overall I do think that you are one of the mellower and more level-headed people on this site. This is clear from the vast majority of your posts, and I am quite certain that I am not the only poster to notice this. (And, of course, I do not agree with everything that you have written in every post!:))
Judging from what I have been observing for the past several months, the proper thing to do for some seems to be blind support of whatever group (religiously and racially) one belongs too (or identifies with) and opposition to individuals in other groups, sometimes to the point of supporting everything up to and including rather clear discrimination or even the deaths of individuals in other groups. Even after seeing it numerous times in my life (since can remember), it truly amazes me that people who belong to one group that is discriminated against have next to no concern for people of any other similarly treated group. And this fact is very clear if one has simply observed over a period of time. And, believe me, I have stood against bigoted individuals in my demographic groups (gender, race, religion, and others) in my life more than once when their actions were wrong.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Thanks for the compliment, turnstiles.
As I posted recently in response to QBrightliner's post, I still have family in Israel. Hebrew is a native language for me, and I was personally affected by the Holocaust. But I think it's important to recognize when something is, or isn't, a threat. A street bully can threaten a 4th degree black belt karate master for his candy. The master knows the bully can't really hurt him, but the master can kill the bully with one punch. Perhaps one reasonable solution would be to pat the bully on the head, offer him a little candy (since the candy is not needed for survival) and a kind word, and pursuade him to change his ways, slowly, over time. Together, the bully and master can accomplish things either one cannot do alone, so it is in the master's best interests to pursue a "teach" policy. This is what Israel is not doing today.
I just want to chime in and say that I also like Ron's posts on this thread. I've been on the daunting task (taken upon myself) of reading the entire Israel thread, and Ron's posts have been a breath of fresh air, one of several voices of reason amidst a cacophany (sp?) of bad vibes. It helps, of course, that I do aggree with a lot of his opinions, and I also am Jewish and take a liberal approach to my support for Israel.
Andrew
On thing that should be remembered about Deir Yasin is that it occured at a time when Israel and its military were hardly organized into a single unit, and there were actually at least three different Israeli militias. This was (IIRC) the Irgun, a rouge-ish organization, terrrorists actually, led by Menahem Begin, not the mainstream Israeli Haganah.
It's still a terrible crime, and one for which Israel does need to deal with.
One thing that is disturbing is that Begin and Shamir (an even more radical terrorist in the 1940's) both became Prime Ministers of Israel in the 1970's and 1980's and into the 1990's.
Andrew
...but in Begin's case, a major good did come out of his leadership since he did make peace with Egypt, in sort of a Nixon-goes-to-China way. Unlike Shamir, Begin did know when to compromise.
Andrew
Yes, you could say Begin made up for a lot of what he did earlier in his life. He rehabilitated himself and helped Israel too.
That's a good point. In fact, the Haganah mounted an operation at one time that sank a British ship from which the Irgun had hoped to collect weapons.
After the State of Israel came into being and the War foer Independence had been basically won, David Ben Gurion told the Irgun "Unless you disarm and accept Israeli Army leadership (which was formed from the Hagana's core) the Israeli Army will act to forcibly disarm you." It was the closest Israel came to a civil war.
A good piece of info. Now let's put this topic to rest once and for all. Very few minds are going to be changed by the constant stream of verbiage eminating from numerous posts. Besides, didn't you hear. I have proclaimed this Sea Beach Day, and since I'm Sea Beach Fred, today my word counts.
I salute you,Fred! I agree, it is indeed Sea Beach Day! All present should stand at attention when a Sea Beach train approaches.
Congratulations, Fred, on being the MC.
(Can it be Culver Day next week?)
Pick a day next week, and wallah, it is Culver Day.
Hmmm. Would a Culver Day include the whole (F) line, even in Queens?
If so, then I'm in!
(I get more excited about the (7), though.)
:-) Andrew
MisterK: I've got it. How about a Flushing Line Day around the time the Mets host the Yankees this year? Then we make that date #7 Day on our website from here on in. As for the Culver, why not include Queens as well. To me the Astoria part of the N is the Sea Beach even if others don;t.
No the Sea Beach is from Midtown South. Remember the Astoria was served at times by the 4th Ave, West End and Brightons, but the Sae Beach Soputh of 57th was always the Sea Beach. I never considered the 6th Ave and Concourse D the Brighton, Only in Brooklyn
For once in a month of Sundays I agree with you. It makes sense. If the D is not the Brighton in the Bronx, it stands to reason the N is not the Sea Beach in Astoria, Queens---especially since the disgusting 4th Avenue Local used to traverse that route, not to mention other lines/
and the Mets are in last place
Not for long Bobby, and while we're about it I enjoyed watching the Red Sox thrash your boys really good on Saturday. Think the Yanks might also be in a little trouble. You worry about your pinstripe buddies, and I'll worry about t he Mets. Did you go railfanning yesterday?
Watch it there, Fred. Once upon a time, the Brighton express, consisting of Triplexes you love so much, went there. That was before my time, when the Brighton local of R27/30s went there.
MisterK: I've got it. How about a Flushing Line Day around the time the Mets host the Yankees this year? Then we make that date #7 Day on our website from here on in. As for the Culver, why not include Queens as well. To me the Astoria part of the N is the Sea Beach even if others don;t.
I'll second that - great idea.
>>> you could say Begin made up for a lot of what he did earlier in his life <<<
Hogwash! Begin did not need to apologize for his earlier role. Those who are terrorists to one side often are patriots to the other. It is easy to condemn terrorism when you are in the most powerful country in the world in military terms. Terrorist plant bombs or in some cases carry explosives to detonate on suicide missions. The United States is able to push buttons from far away and send missiles with high explosives into the center of a city, or have aircraft rain explosives on a country's infrastructure. We do not define that as terrorism.
Begin and the Irgun saw themselves as Zionist patriots, fighting their enemy with the weapons they had available to them as best they could. Even the American colonists were criticized by the British for the cowardly way they fired on British troops from behind rocks and trees instead of marching in rows to a frontal battle as real armies were supposed to at that time. The Marquis in France during the second World War saw themselves as patriots also when they carried out sabotage against the Vichy government, as do the IRA men who set bombs in Belfast and London, and the Palestinians who carry bombs into Israeli marketplaces and onto crowded buses.
For those who say the difference is that terrorists strike civilians rather than military targets, the obvious answer is that the weaker an organization is the farther away from its adversary's military it will strike. To do otherwise would be suicidal. The 20th century concept of total war no longer spares civilians. We in the western democracies do not have such a moral high ground to look down on those who attack civilians. Viet Nam is still experiencing abnormally high rates of birth defects more than 25 years after the United States polluted the country with Agent Orange, and the fire bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, and the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, were clearly meant to terrorize the populations into submission rather than to achieve a strictly military objective.
Tom
"For those who say the difference is that terrorists strike civilians rather than military targets, the obvious answer is that the weaker an organization is the farther away from its adversary's military it will strike. To do otherwise would be suicidal."
The problem with that, Tom, is that the Haganah proved more than capable of handling anything the Arab armies threw at it. It was winning the war on the ground (my father served first in the front lines and then as a master gunnery and tank instructor in the armor school) and avoided many needless civilian casualties while doing so. The Irgun shot up a lot of civilians for convenience of land grab; their style of guerilla war was so obnoxious Haganah units were occasionally assigned to foil them (the most famous was the sinking of the arms carrier the Irgun was to be resupplied from)! You may have seen them as patriots, but the rest of Israel most certainly did not (Haganah unit members despised them), and Ben-Gurion exercised his mandate to disband the Irgun, at gunpoint if necessary, as soon as the War for Independence was over.
Im not sure what relevance the other stuff in your post has; "true and unrelated" applies to some of it. American patriots shooting at British troops doesn't seem equivalent to Irgun units shooting at unarmed women and children and burning their homes.
MY ABSOLUTE LAST POST IN THIS THREAD !!!!!!!!
"However, would you like to be held personally responsible to what every elected official does? People are individuals. Would you like to personally pay (with everything up to and including your life, since you are concerning Israeli-Palestinian relations) for what our leaders what done? Clinton? Bush? the Senate?"
I think you've framed your question improperly. Would I like? No. Am I held responsible, of course we are. Ask anyone who fought in Viet Nam or fled to Canada. Our leaders made decisions and we, as a nation lived with the consequences. In the same way, whether the palestinian people agree with arafat or not, if he brings war to their doors, they too must deal with it. Now, in that context - where is the difference?
>>>I think you've framed your question improperly. Would I like? No. Am I held responsible, of course we are. Ask anyone who
fought in Viet Nam or fled to Canada. Our leaders made decisions and we, as a nation lived with the consequences. In the
same way, whether the palestinian people agree with arafat or not, if he brings war to their doors, they too must deal with it.
Now, in that context - where is the difference?
Train Dude: I understand what you are saying here that there is sometimes a tendency to hold an entire people responsible to its leadership, but does the mere fact that they are sometimes (nations are not always held responsible - modern Russians as a people have certainly not been held responsible for what the Communists did, though that party's public support was noticeably smaller than that of many other authoritarian regimes) held responsible, mean that they should be? This is definitely something that is a matter for serious thought, not summary conclusions apparently made on the spur of the moment. When everything up to an entire people's lives is at stake, this is not a mere ethical or academic debate.
Saying that all Palestinians should pay for what Arafat has done (another debate - he almost certainly is more of a space-filler figurehead with no real control than anything else) "whether the Palestinian people agree with Arafat or not" is a truly a remarkable statement. Not to raise ire here, but it is truly horrendous.
I find it very disturbing that large numbers of people (in this particular case Muslims) continue to be killed because of beliefs like this in what is otherwise an advanced and modern (socially and technologically) society (Israel).
Perhaps it would help to activelykeep in mind that there are only two things that (almost) all Palestinians (or, for that matter, most Israelis) have in common: religion and geographic location (I'm sure some people in each group live outside the country, or are not active believers in any faith to begin with). Violence and terrorism are not held in common by all Palestinians or all Israelis.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I was going to respond myself to Train Dude's post, but you did it well yourself...
Most Christian Arabs in Israel have voting rights and Israeli Citizenship
Umm, so do the Muslim ones. But they do not have equal rights.
where da hell you get your information from???????
From more credible sources than you do, apparently. He also knows how to evaluate information critically - a good skill to have.
I was born in Israel; my parents fought to establish the state; my father fought i the French Resistance in WWII agains6t the Nazis; he went on tofight in the Sinai Campaign of 1956 in the Israeli Army and was a master gunnery instructor at the tank school. I am proud of what Israel has accomplished but I try not to turn a blind eye to its problems and accept the PR-style bullshit offered by right-wing Israeli politicians.
Lockerbie, Achille Lauro, Munich, the Embassy bombings --- MURDERERS
America saved Muslems in Serbia, Chehinya (sp) and Afghanistan (1979-1987)from genocide, meanwhile the extremists preach "Death to Israel, Death to America" and dream of killing every Jew in Israel. They should realize that America and yes, Israel are their best friends in the world. Peace will bring prosperity, extremists bring war and famine. The PLO gave power to Sharon last year and peace will put him back in his box and the two great religious traditions of the Semitic people will then live together and thrive. Democracy will improve the lot of the Arab people and will empower them as citizens of a peaceful Palestinian state living next door to a peaceful Israeli state
I agree that democracy would improve the lot of Palestinians (of any religion), however I find it prejudicial that you equate all Palestinians (of any religion) with the religious extremists of the Taliban (which is such an extreme group that it is not recognised by most Islamic majority states). However I would refute your claims that "America saved Muslems [sic]" in Afghanistan. And your claim that "meanwhile the extremists preach "Death to Israel, Death to America" and dream of killing every Jew in Israel." is probably true (among exremists, as you presumed); however "exremists" do not bear the brunt of a particular society's blame. Those believers are wrong, but the genocidal state of Israel punishes all Palestinians, regardless of their beliefs.
Genocidal state of Israel? Are you real? The Israelis have been fighting for their lives since 1948. They want peace and want to left alone. But the extemists among the Palestinians will not let them have peace. And, despite what you say, most of the P's support their leaders' war on Israel.
As someone who had genuinely supported Oslo and cried at a memorial service for Rabin, I am now convinced that Arafat was always insincere about peace. Barak offered him everything - EVERYTHING Arafat wanted and more - even sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem. Arafat didn't take it, and that proves he was never serious.
To the argument that Arafat was just too afraid for his life to take it - well, that's his problem.
The PLO/PA's support of Holocaust denial, and Arafat's refusal to acknowedge any Jewish history in Jerusalem, also indicate that he is full of it, just as always.
To keep "on topic", those suicide bus bombings were on regular city buses. Imagine getting on a Q31 or something, and it just blows up in the middle of Bell Boulevard because some terrorist boarded with a nail bomb attached to his belt?
Israeli Arabs have full rights in Israel, including to serve in the Knesset, which they do. Comparisons with apartheid South Africa, etc. are antisemitic.
The surrounding Arab governements are the ones making life difficult for the Palestinians. They have plenty of resources to take them in or otherwise help them but refuse to, preferring to watch them stew in refugee camps, in order for Israel to get all the blame.
"Israeli Arabs have full rights in Israel, including to serve in the Knesset, which they do. Comparisons with apartheid South
Africa, etc. are antisemitic."
That is a very infantile, defensive and racist argument. That's like saying that unless you believe that blacks in the US have full rights and have opportunities equal in all respect to whites, you are a white-hater. Was the 1965 Civil Rights Act completely fulfilled when black towns in Mississippi got indoor plumbing?
Yes, Israeli Arabs have legal rights in Israel. But, like minorities here, they have suffered job discrimination, denial of advancement opportunities, lack of govt. investment in their communities compared with Jewish areas, and a lot of lip service.
Here in the US, there have, at least, been concerted efforts by various parties to see that opportunities reach minorities, that there are investments made in minority communities. We still have a long way to go in goals like closing the unemployment gap between whites and blacks, but there's progress.
I don't see that kind of progress in Israel, partly because there's no pressure inside to make it happen. An Israeli Arab can sit in the Knesset, but any ultra-right-wing religious party member will have a lot more power, representing a lot fewer people.
I dont see the Palestinians inviting big corporations to their territories so they can build biiig skyscrapers like in Tel Aviv, nor do i see the fellow palestinian giving grants to his brothers who live on the street and eat tourist urine so they can build affordable housing. TAX FREE WITH ISRAELI MONEY SUPPORT, You cant negotiate with blood thrusty animals
You're confusing a lot of issues which are not the same. Whether or not Palestinians can competently run a state is their problem to solve. Israel pulling out of the West Bank is a different question. Let Israel pull out, then stop the subsidies if Israelis don't like them. If the Palestinian state collapses they will have no one to blame but themselves; on the other hand they'll have an opportunity to "sink or swim." That isn't the case now.
And do everyone a favor - leave the epithets and name-calling out - they really don't help your posts.
Oh no see thats the thing, if it DOES FAIL which it probably will, Israel wil lofcourse get blamed.
Some will blame Israel - but that's OK. That's the kind of thing that can be brushed off.
Like the situation in the U.S., things are a lot more complex than you have summarized. This is not the place to go into details. You are right that much needs be done. You are wrong if you are assuming that nothing at all is being done about it.
Markskan: Well said. I couldn't have begun to say it any better, and you are absolutely right.
"The surrounding Arab governements are the ones making life difficult for the Palestinians. They have plenty of resources to take them in or otherwise help them but refuse to, preferring to watch them stew in refugee camps, in order for Israel to get all the blame."
By this logic American Indians should be blaming Canada, and not the United States, for the loss of their livelihoods?
You can't really compare the way a party was treated a century ago with the way a party is treated today. The reason for the opinions we have today on such situations is because we have come to realize the mistakes of the past, and do our best not to repeat them.
-Hank
Hmm lets take a look at the facts, who are these Palestenians really, the Jordans and Syrians who were left as refugees after the several wars for disputed areas (west bank, gaza, ?golan?) why didnt jordan and syria take back their people? hmm??????? I cant see The US not taking back and protecting its citizens and residents , no matter where they are in the world, israel too
"Hmm lets take a look at the facts, who are these Palestenians really, the Jordans and Syrians who were left as refugees after the
several wars for disputed areas (west bank, gaza, ?golan?) why didnt jordan and syria take back their people? hmm???????"
Frankly, that's complete bullshit. It's false and ignorant. Palestinians need to take more responsibility for what they do, it's true; but your post at the best is ignorant and unfeeling; at worst cruel, even evil. It relies on a very narrow interpretation of historical events. It does not help the cause of peace.
Didn't you just say, "And do everyone a favor - leave the epithets and name-calling out - they really don't help your posts."?
I engaged in no name-calling there. OK, substitute "nonsense" for "bullshit." But the post I was responding to was mean and cruel in tone and content.
Does that clear things up for you?
peace? dream on, i'll tell you when there was peace, when Great Britain had an "Expeditionary Force" Established in "palestine" and we know what expeditionary means, then there was peace, ain no peace now, i soo believe in imperialism, look at the independant african countries and Middle East and Balkans and formet USSR countries (CIS union) they all fighting, all of them, and in indiam with f***in Kashmir or whatever, Where England Left there is war now, where France left, there is war now, where USSR left, there is war now, how good is that? dont be telling me about BLASTED hopes for PEACE, because with animals against humans it just aint possible, we dont bark.
While England and France controlled those nations, they were fighting against each other, and France against Germany, and the USSR/Russia against Germany. Yet now none of this exist. You can cross the border between France and Germany, the border between two of the worst enemies in the history of the world, and not even pass a border guard.
All of the colonized countries are only less mature than Europe, but they'll get there. Because no matter how bad you may think those battling nations are, the world's bloodiest wars were fought in Europe.
Good point. And they learned from the Europeans.
His point about USSR and Serbia (reffered by him as Balkans) are not exactly in the same league as the rest of the examples.
Balkan turmoil is solely caused by serbian nationalism, somehow curbed by Tito for decades. In the USSR most of the conflicts are Russian induced (aside perhaps? from Armenian Azeri war)
In reality the slavic world wiew is experiencing something gone through by the western world centuries ago.
Arti
Calling non-Europeans "animals" is pretty racsit.
Great Brittain's Palestine Mandate was a disaster. They contributed heavily to many of the problems the Middle East still faces today. They were indecisive (promising the same land to both the Jews and Arabs) and unconcerned with the needs of the people on the lands they controlled. There was war there then too, between Jews and Arabs. The only difference was that they weren't in power. Brittain also closed the land to Jewish sttlement, to the point where they wouldn't even take in refugees from the Hollocaust.
Imperialism is all about the interests of the country in power. Today's borders in the Middle East were carved by England, France and Italy out of the Ottoman Empire they had conquered in World War 1, out of their own finacnial interests.
Somebody's been paying attention in history class...
Or he didn't pay attention while in the laundromat and instead did his own research.
I assume that because his post smacks of unbridled intelligence.
Thanks guys! I spent a year in Israel, and studied with some very open-minded and even-handed courses on the country's hiostory. I've always been fascinated by Israel's history and politics. The land is a second home to me.
:-) Andrew
In the early years Israel Could not loose any battles, The arabian countries could easily regroup, can any PLO supporter be honest and say that if England and UN left the territory to the Palestinians that country would have been as developed and beautiful and modern as it is right now? BULLSHIT, way to go Sea Beach Fred
John, I hope you are right and I am wrong. I would gladly pray for me being out to lunch onthis one. But I just don;t know about your optimism in this conflict.
I have an idea, now that the cold war is over, America should give the green light to Russia to take Afghanistan and give those people something to REALLY worry about.
Afghanistan would be a lot better off under Soviet control.
Sorry AP, there is no such thing as Soviet anything. They have been flushed down the trash bin of history thanks to Ronald Reagan and others who helped us win the Cold War with a tough policy toward that once evil empire.
who ever said that the Cold War is over?
The one with the Russians certainly is-NATO won a strategic victory over the Warsaw Pact without firing a shot. But America has new challenges to face...
I have an idea, now that the cold war is over, America should give the green light to Russia to take Afghanistan and give those people
something to REALLY worry about.
Where do I begin?
First of all, not only aren't the Afghani people Palestineans, but they're not even Arabs. The large majority of people practicing the Muslim faith are not Arabs, and of the seven or eight largest Muslim countries in the world there's not an Arab country among them. Afghanistan is a mixture of several Indic and Iranian, and perhaps some Turkic subgroups.
Second, the regime now in Afghanistan, the Taliban, is so extemeist and so repressive that virtually the whole Islamic world has condemned them, even many of the fundamentalists. In NO way is the Taliban representative of the Muslim faith, any more than the KKK is a representative of Protestants.
I suspect the fate of Afghanistan is the furthest thing from the average Palestinean's mind; so getting Russia to take Afghanistan over wouldn't worry them!
Andrew
hey hey hey, if you go to Jerusalems old city they sell Trinkets, trinkets are fun to have, and they actually want american dollars for it, 4 sheqels or $1 for post cards, while u give the cash to one little arab boy the one behind you takes ur wallet and ur prescious dollars
I do respect your right to express your opinion, too. However you can't expect Palestine to have an economy since it ceased being a country. And by boycotting Israeli products, I also recognize that this (sometimes) hurts Palestinian workers, (when they are allowed to go to their jobs in Israel proper). And it's not fair to lump the 90% of Palestinians who bear Israeli repression without throwing rocks, in with those 10% who feel violence is their only recourse. There is violence by a minority of both sides. Most Israeli violence is perpetrated by the State, and a minority of it by West Bank and Gaza colonists/settlers. The Palestinian violence is perpetrated exlusively by civilians, since there is no state. Both sides are wrong. I do not blame the Israeli people, nor the Palestinian people in whole for their respective violence, but merely the Israeli State, and those Palestinian and Israeli Jewish individuals who practice it. On another note, I'm not a "Palestinian lover" by preferring to buy American matzo over Israeli matzo. The Palestinian authority, including Yasser Arafat, is hopelessly authoritarian, and has no democratic basis to claim to represent the Palestinian people, short of the impotent Palestinian National Assembly. I would very much like to see Arafat go, however I can't imagine anyone establishing a democratically responsible government or even representative body among a dispersed people living under military occupation.
this is really mean but by evidence trhoughout history im gonna have to say
"Israel is for israelites"
"Israel is for israelites"
If I recall correctly, the earliest usage of that definition was in the Bible, when the Israelites felt justified in slaughtering the Canaanites (devine destiny, anyone)?
I hope we've advanced enough to not need thoe kinds of justifications. As I tried to point out before, Israel's existence is no longer in danger. But it risks mortgaging its future (and that of the Palestinians) if it does not become more open-minded to a different operating paradigm.
i wholehearlty agree with you, as long as they're being funded by the US, now with bush, we aint gonna have none allies goddamnit (in a hick accent)
>>> we can use them to let all you Palestinian lovers use them to crawl under <<<
The term "you Palestinian lovers" has a familiar unpleasant stench.
Tom
Perhaps it does at that. But anyone who thinks what has been going on in the Middle East is Israel's fault is out of it as far as I'm concerned. Clinton tried to broker a peace in his last days in office and it was sandbagged by the Palestinians, not the Israeli Not you or anyone else is going to convince me that Arafat wants peace until his name is on a document recognizing Israel's right to exist, and, furthermore, when he is able to control those loonies under him who attack children on a bus, kill innocent people, and can't seem to get over their disgusting habit or hurling rocks whenever their foul mood stikes them.
?
Dave, I think Philly guys is trying to equate what the whites did to the black Africans in South Africa with what the Israelis are supposed to be doing to the Palestinians. Of course, there is one small difference. The Palestinians and their Arab brothers, most of them, that is, have pledged to drive Israel into the sea. Maybe some one should explain that to phillyguy. He might have an epiphony.
Fred, I killfiled the jerk.
What the Israelis are be doing to the Palestinians is similar to what this nation did to the Japanese during WWII. they are denying people rights because they are at war with people in the same ethnic group. We were wrong then just as the Israelis are wrong now.
THE BLACKS OUTSOUD OF RAF COULD NOT HELP THE BLACKS WITHIN RAF, HOW COME THE ARAB COUNTRIES FOR YEARS REGECTED THESE FELLOW ARAB REFUGEES STATUS IN THEIR COUNTRIES?????????? ALL OF THEM EXCEPT JORDAN< RICH RICH OPEC BLACH SOOT PRODUCING RICH COUNTRIES WHO DRIVE LUXURY CARS YOU CAN ONLY DREAM OF AFFORDING??????????
You're describing what's on the surface, and not trying to go deeper. Arabic society (and I do not mean to cast it as monolithic) is characterized by family ties (which result in undemocratic means of governance), a deep divide between who's in the palace and who's on the street, and is always unstable to one degree or another. Just as Ashkenazi Jews lookdown their noses at Sephardic or Druze citizens, so do Saudis often see Palestinians in terms of stereotypes. It's OK for a Palestinian to clean your toilet in Riyadh, but it's not OK for him to voice an opinion ("when I want your opinion I'll give it to you").
In Egypt upper class Arabs speak classical Arabic and have decidedly different attitudes than the masses in the streets. Thus, Hosni Mubarak can pursue eace in Israel, but the institutions which teach peace in the streets are immature or absent.
There is nothing to do but wait, take advantage of Israel's deterrent force and US power to take the high road in terms of policy, even if it means short-term costs (like kicking megalomaniac settlers out of Gaza settlements).
This is a problem. Israel is not responsible for this problem, but it isn't helping matters much, either.
How much more help???? More money? more land? less JEWS? ANIMALS ARE ANIMALS
hen you start looking at certain people as "animals," how long is it before you start looking at other people as "animals." Where do you draw the line?
I despair when cruel and immature posts like these show up here. OK, we're all blowing off steam on the Internet, but how does that translate to how we treat our neighbors, our friends and our family?
When you find you capslock key and realize that people who speak the Arabic language are as different as Australians, Scots, and Indians, this might merit a reponse. (Not that I understood your message at all: what is RAF? And "regected": is that rejected and neglected?)
RSA i mean Republic of South Africa, i meant Palestenians
THE BLACKS OUTSIDE OF RSA COULD NOT HELP THE BLACKS WITHIN RSA, HOW COME THE ARAB COUNTRIES FOR YEARS REGECTED THESE FELLOW ARAB REFUGEES STATUS IN THEIR COUNTRIES?????????? ALL OF THEM EXCEPT JORDAN< RICH RICH OPEC BLACH SOOT PRODUCING RICH COUNTRIES WHO DRIVE LUXURY CARS YOU CAN ONLY DREAM OF AFFORDING??????????
The correction is RSA Republic of South Africa
It's like arguing with Jesse Helms...
"there's a tiny hope in the back of my mind"
Considering the obvious (lack of) size of your mind - a tiny hope is likely all that'll fit. Nice to see mental illness has not passed you by.
Thank you for judging my mental fitness based on my opinion (incidently shared by most of the world outside the U.S. and the State of Israel) of one particular issue; and not on any other contributions I may have made to this forum or otherwise mentally within the United States. (And on top of that, hardly knowing me). This is a political debate: leave it at that - don't attack someone's intelligence because you disagree with their opinion.
So what? I don't give a FLYING FUCK what the rest of the world thinks. This is the same "rest of the world" that persecutes Jews at every possible oppurtunity.
Jews have historically been the most oppressed nation EVER. And that oppression and hatred isn't over. At least Israel can now kick any anti-semite country or organizations ass.
But until the Jews tried to force them off their land in 1948 the Arabs did not oppress the Jews. in fact the Spanish Jews were treated far better under Arab control than under catholic control. why should Arabs who at the time did not care about Jews be forced to give up their homes because of what Germans and other groups did. it should have been the Germans that were displace to create a Jewish State.
The United Nations charted out one nation for the Palestinians and another for the Jews. The Jews accepted their claim, the Palestians refused and didn't want any land for the Jews.
Meanwhile ALL of the neighboring Arab lands invaded Israel, and Israel still managed to survive each and every invasion.
In fact, rather than allowing the West Bank and Gaza strip to become a Palestinian State in 1948, those lands were claimed by Jordan and Egypt until 1967.
And those people are better off in a Democratic Israel than in other Arab countries.
Israel allows Muslims to continue to worship at the Dome of the Rock, yet did Jordan allow the Jews to go to the Wailing Wall between 1948 and 1967?
Of course as for displacing people, each generation displaced the previous.
The Arabs displaced the Romans (actually, Byzantines by that time), who displaced the Greeks or Hellenists at least.
You should not be making such sweeping generalizations on a topic that you are so-ill informed. You never heard of or just conveniently don't remember the extinction of the Jews of Hevron by Arabs in 1929?
Jews in Iraq were reasonably well treated (but unlikely to advance in govt or be well-represented therein) until the monarchy was overthrown by the socialist Baath Party in 1951. Thereafter everything went to hell for theJews there.
you need to get a book and read up on this my man, Im telling you it aint even funny, The public libraries in New York are free and give out books for 3 weeks before necessary renewal. come on, so arabs didnt oppress Jews during and before the war For Independance in 1948? What Da hell is WAR Not Opression?
American Pig calm down. You were more fun as Pork the other white meat.
PorkPower GO PIGS!!!! KEEP IT UP
Thank you for judging my mental fitness based on my opinion (incidently shared by most of the world outside the U.S. and the
State of Israel) of one particular issue; and not on any other contributions I may have made to this forum or otherwise mentally
within the United States. (And on top of that, hardly knowing me). This is a political debate: leave it at that - don't attack someone's intelligence because you disagree with their opinion.
I seem to be just about the only other person on Subtalk who more or less agrees with your position. And I am quite dismayed at the utter intolerance shown by many other people. Acknowledging diversity of thought, and respecting others' opinions, apparently does not exist when Israel is concerned. It makes me wonder what the next taboo topic will be.
we already had a taboo topic where I was involved, Transit Graffiti, but at least in this discussion people have valid arguments
It's not anti-semetic to believe that the arabs have a legitimate claim to the land because the arabs are semites too. The fact that it's not anti-semetic, however, does not mean it's right. The arabs and israelis fought many wars over the disputed land. The arabs lost. They lost the war. They lost the land. This is not a stick-ball game and there are no do-overs. Do you think that if the arabs had won - they would now be disposed to give back land for the promise of peace?
"The only reason the US ever suppurated Israel was out of guilt"
By the way, what does this word mean?
Dude, you are a tough customer and for phillyguy a worthy opponent. I still feel he doesn't get the full picture of what's going on over there, but there are a good half dozen of us here that can show him the way.
Fred, have you been to Israel? Have you been involved in the fighting over there???
I haven't so I'm not chiming in on this issue.
And besides, it ain't rail-related so it shouldn't even be discussed here...but who am I to say? I'm not the Webmaster.
BMTman
>>>And besides, it ain't rail-related so it shouldn't even be discussed here...but who am I to say? I'm not the Webmaster.<<<
Ya got that right.
"The arabs and israelis fought many wars over the disputed land. The arabs lost. They lost the war. They lost the land."
The Arabs don't think the war is over. If in 1942 the Germans had declared the war over should the French and poles and Russians and checks just let them keep the land. The war is not over until both sides say it is.
"Do you think that if the arabs had won - they would now be disposed to give back land for the promise of peace?"
No because they were there first. The Israelis invaded they forced people to give up there homes and refused to give them equal rights.
"By the way, what does this word mean?"
It should be supported is spelled it wrong.
No because they were there first. The Israelis invaded they forced people to give up there homes and refused to give them equal rights.
The Arabs were not there first. They are just as guilty of taking land from others.
The history of humanity is a story of people taking land from other people. If you can't live with it, move to your own planet.
My compliments. Well said.
That's why a better approach to this would first discard the "I was here first" routine to allow for a more productive approach.
Regardless of your opinions, there is one indisputable fact. The Israeli's have kept the war in that area of the world. The palestinians have brought it here.
>>>"The only reason the US ever suppurated Israel was out of guilt. By the way, what does this word mean? "<<<
Um........it means to form or discharge pus. You mean supported right?
"It's not anti-semetic to believe that the arabs have a legitimate claim to the land because the arabs are semites too. The fact that
it's not anti-semetic, however, does not mean it's right. The arabs and israelis fought many wars over the disputed land. The
arabs lost. They lost the war. They lost the land. This is not a stick-ball game and there are no do-overs. Do you think that if
the arabs had won - they would now be disposed to give back land for the promise of peace?"
You appear to have missed an important point. A democratic natio which is victorious in war should treat the defeated well, not poorly. Look at the Marshall Plan - and how Germany evolved after WWII, then contrast it with what happened after the Treaty of Versailles.
Your immature justifications above are consistent for a totalitarian nation - or a ruler like Saddam Hussain - not a modern democracy. Israel can stoop over and act the tyrant, or it can seek the high road.
Wow! This thread is HUGE!!
How pathetic you guys have become!
This is a website for discussing rapid transit systems -- particularly that of NYC. Why don't all of you start a webpage called www.worldpolitics.com?
I'm sure when Dave Pirmann started this message board he didn't expect it to turn into a 'free-for-all'.
....I might as well start a thread about my arthritic condition...or hemorrodial itch...
No wonder alot of the regular guys have gone AWOL. Don't need a rocket scientist to figure that one out...
BMT(fed up)man
I too am against off-topic threads, when they do not indicate such...
OK. Doug I got the message. I am off this topic from here on in. I have to admit that some of the posts got my dander up and I felt I had to respond. But I will kiss this off as of now. I'm sure others will follow.
OK. Doug I got the message. I am off this topic from here on in. I have to admit that some of the posts got my dander up and I felt I had to respond. But I will kiss this off as of now. I'm sure others will follow.
OK. Doug I got the message. I am off this topic from here on in. I have to admit that some of the posts got my dander up and I felt I had to respond. But I will kiss this off as of now. I'm sure others will follow.
Go to this page http://www.jtf.org/no.palestine.htm for info on why there is no Palestine or Palestinians
Learning about Palestinians from JTF.org is a little like learning about American blacks from the Ku Klux Klan or the American Nazi Party.
You don't seriously align yourself with these people do you. There's so much hatred on that website, I'm lucky my computer screen didn't crack!
Were you aware the the cartoonist, Johnny Hart (who is a fundamentalist christian), was once quoted in an interview as saying that "...Jews, Muslims, and non-fundamentalist christians...[would be going]...to hell, and it was only fair that [he] warn them?"
-Hank
That's what I love about those guys---they have all the answers and think themselves infallible. The problem is those type of Christians show none of the charity and compassion that we Christians are supposed to stand for. Put Johnny Hart out on the tracks near Kings Highway, put me in as motorman for a Sea Beach R-32 and I'll give him the scare of his life.
>>> The problem is those type of Christians show none of the charity and compassion that we Christians are supposed to stand for. Put Johnny Hart out on the tracks near Kings Highway, put me in as motorman for a Sea Beach R-32 and I'll give him the scare of his life. <<<
I certainly hope you intended the irony contained in the above two sentences. With the charity and compassion you wish to show to Mr. Hart, I am glad I am not your type of Christian.
Tom
I meant to scare him out of the evils of his ways, not do him in. Out here we call it tough love. I'm still a compassionate nice guy, Sea Beach Fred. Sorry you thought of me any other way. Just call ame Mr. Nice Guy.
Anon: It could have been pulled---let's not kid ourselves about that. But Jews now seem to be fair game for the liberal press just as Catholics have been in recent years. It all stinks to high heaven and someone had better wake up and smell the freaking coffee. Selective sensitivity is not going to get the job done.
Fred, Pulling it is not simple. You've got thousands of copies delivered to stores and home delivery services in New Jersey alone by Thursday or Friday morning for The Star Ledger. And, to complicate matters, I don't believe that they even print the comics in their own plants. The company that prints them would have to re-do them, send them to the Ledger's Piscataway plant where the inserts are added, and then the Ledger would have to re-deliver them. This would not work in the time frame for Sunday morning. Bottom line: It shouldn't have been written, and once written, not printed.
Interesting that the counterpoint to this should be a paraphrase of the man at the center of the issue:
"How dare you use your right to criticize to criticize my right to criticize."
(Something along this theme ran in a recent weekday strip)
-Hank
Where are all the liberals this week?
Where everyone else is... on vacation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> The writer of the B.C. Comic Strip wrote an Easter strip that, to some, seemed anti-Semetic. <<<
The L.A. Times has a story about this, although they dropped the strip a week ago. After reading the story, I looked up the strip on Yahoo. It seemed more preachy "born again Christian" than anti Semitic. and more appropriate for a Christian newsletter than a general circulation newspaper. The most I could understand from the strip was that Christianity came from Judaism.
Tom
And some see the strip as suggesting that Christianity replaced Judiasm. Just like I see nothing wrong with the chanting the Atlanta Braves fans do while others find it offensive.
Whether you see the strip as you did or as others have seen it, should it have run. The Sunday edition comics are routinely printed early in the week. Therefore, it would be costly and time-consuming for any newspaper to reprint the section. Does that mitigate running the strip or should those papers that carry the strip have bitten the bullet. One paper in three in the NY metro area did that. The other two that carry the strip opted to run it. A business decision or lack of sensativity? Would they have been so business oriented if the strip offended native americans, hispanics or blacks? Several weeks ago - many here expressed sensativity when it came to sports-team names. My point was where are the great champions of racial sensativity like salaam with this one?
When I was in college, the campus paper did, once in a very long while, leave white space where a political cartoon was supposed to be, along with a little note explaining why it was being pulled. The reason was the cartoon was racially offensive, and I think in one case the target of ridicule (in the cartoon) threatened to sue. I do not comment on the merits of the decision; I only report here how the paper handled it.
"Just like I see nothing wrong with the chanting the Atlanta Braves fans do while others find it offensive"
Point: Some may find things offensive whiles other do not. Like the sport teams or comic strips or TV shows which have so far done a very poor job at diversity of any sort. Im sure many would agree on that.
The writer of the B.C. Comic Strip wrote an Easter strip that, to some, seemed anti-Semetic.
The L.A. Times has a story about this, although they dropped the strip a week ago. After reading the story, I looked up the strip on Yahoo. It seemed more preachy "born again Christian" than anti Semitic. and more appropriate for a Christian newsletter than a general circulation newspaper. The most I could understand from the strip was that Christianity came from Judaism.
It strikes me as somewhat odd that a born-again Christian cartoonist is drawing a strip about cavemen!
>>> It strikes me as somewhat odd that a born-again Christian cartoonist is drawing a strip about cavemen!
He was writing the comic strip before he became a born again Christian. There is a certain irony in a comic strip titled "B.C." having any hint of Christianity.
Tom
The main character's name is 'B.C.'
He appears on a wheel on the side of Broome County, NY transit buses.
That is, 'BC Transit'
-Hank
I've noticed that myself. I believe most Jews are liberal themselves but they seem to be a target of attack from the very liberals many of them support. I don't get it, except that we Republicans have done a crappy job of reaching out to the very groups that are attacked yet are repelled by those groups. There's a lot of work to be done on all fronts, but I do know this. Despite what anyone says to thecontrary the fact is Conservatives are much more pro-Israel than the liberals are. Clinton did everything but kiss that rotten Arafat's ass.
Actually, I find that the belief that Republicans are more pro-Israel than Democrats to be a myth. There are friends and not-so-much firneds on both sides of the political fence.
Truman recognized Israel right at its founding, and was the president who established the friendship between the US and Israel, though admitedly he did little after that. Eisenhower ignored Israel, right at the time of need in the Suez crisis of 1956. Johnson wasn't much better. Nixon was a pretty good friend, I guess, though he himself harbored some not-so-secret anti-Semetic opinions. Ford, well who cares about Ford! Carter brokered the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, and while Israel did seem to get the short end of the stick, I still believe it was worth it.
Reagan was so pro-Israel it may have hurt. He was behind just about anything Likud was for. Bush Sr.'s Gulf War was really more about oil interests than anything else. He seemed to harbor more antipathy or perhaps apathy than anything else. As for Shrub, he seems about as interested in the Middle East as anything that isn't a video game.
I believe Clinton was very pro-Israel. I admit as a Jew with ties to Israel that some of the ideas in his his peace plan from Camp David make me very uncomfortable. It may have gone too far on Jerusalem. But I feel the spirit of the plan was right, and I'm very grateful for his dedication. He refused to give up even when things seemed hopeless, a stark contrast to Shrub's aparent complete apathy.
Andrew
Jerusalem should be treated as Vatican City is treated, an autonomous, neutral, international area. Basically, the idea behind Clancys "The Sum of all Fears". I would just hope for a different end result.
-Hank
But Vatican city is a relatively small complex in Rome. If Jerusalem was the same, then only the old city would be independent. But that DOES make sense.
I just saw the strip yesterday in the Daily News. I'm so pissed off about it it's not even funny. To me it is offensive both as a Jew and as a liberal.
Andrew
The Daily Rag was one of the two papers that said it would have been too costly to reprint the color comics. Regardless of my feelings about the strip, I am more angry about the double standard that is so appearent in the US Liberal community.
Just to make you aware of certain realities of newspaper distribution and printing. Most Sunday color sections are printed a week in advance; Sunday comic strips are on 6-week lead times. Most of them are farmed out to outside printers. The Daily News Sunday comics are in fact printed in Canada. When your circulation is nearly 3/4 of a million copies (1999 figures), that's a LOT of money. And just like the editorials in the main paper, you don't have to neccesarily agree with the opinions presented in the strips. A newspaper is unique, compared to TV and Radio broadcasts, in that it also provides a forum for your opinion, and it's likely to be printed if you're quick and to the point. They even accept email. I've expressed my opinion to the Daily News and Newsday, if you do a search on my name at either papers web site, you'll see what you get.
-Hank
Some of my first cross-cultural experieces were on transit- I remember sharing Mad Dog with bums on the back of the Halsted bus, or playing with other little black kids on the train platform, I didn't consciously to set out to build bridges, albiet in a fairly superficial manner. While some people will hang onto their prejudices no matter what, they may be dulled somewhat by jostling together- always helps to know how the other half lives, or a least gets around.
I gather that the situation in Cincy is that poor blacks rarely see middle class whites except when they're told "no", and the middle class whites out in the fractal subdivisions seldom lay eyes on, much less interact with poor blacks- you think years of this doesn't help build up a riot friendly situation?
Well - any chance of peace is getting dimmer with the announcement that "THE ROTUND ONE" will return to the US from his tour of the Sudan and go directly to Cincinnati. Perhaps he feels there is still time to extort some cash before cooler heads prevail.
I gather that the situation in Cincy is that poor blacks rarely see middle class whites except when they're told "no", and the middle class whites out in the fractal subdivisions seldom lay eyes on, much less interact with poor blacks- you think years of this doesn't help build up a riot friendly situation?
To a considerable extent, yes. Maybe things would have been different if people rode transit ...
what cincinatti needs to do is put some controls on thier police murdering innocent black people & especially those who run away unarmed & in the oppisite direction. I may agree with the mass transit part of the post !!
Ah, salaam, this is what I like about you - your sense of fairness.
In fairness - the person was a criminal - wanted on outstanding warrants. He was fleeing the police who were legimately pursuing him. Why the young man fled? Why the officer felt compelled to shoot? - Was the shooting Legally justified? Were the young man's civil rights violated? These issues need to be investigated and should not be subject to knee-jerk reactionaries.
"especially those who run away unarmed & in the oppisite direction"
BTW: The word "Away" sort of conveys the idea that it's in the opposite direction.
"Ah, salaam, this is what I like about you - your sense of fairness"
ok pal lets rock & roll whith this one etc.. There is no excuse for shooting anyone dead because they have several traffic warrants
like this innocent black mah who was executed by police firing squad etc. this man was not on death row resisting !!
"especially those who run away unarmed & in the oppisite direction"
again mr. train dude running away the oppisite direction unarmed & away etc... this is not DUCK HUNTING SEASON sir!!
by the way he did not pose any threat just like an unarmed homeless woman here in L.A. was murdered not so long ago !!
I visited cincy ohio found it to be too dull & uninteresting anyway with this silly WCKY radio station on the air !!
dayton ohio was more interesting with ther electric TROLLEY BUSES now that was fun !!!!
ONE SHOT from ONE COP does not a firing squad make. It does seem however, that this particular suspect was pursued to excess. If all he was wanted on was outstanding traffic warrants, with no other associated crimes, especially none of a violent nature, pursuit is not the best course of action. It also does not seem that the police had much of a reason to fear this particular suspect. However, every one of these situations results in a game of 'What if:'; as in, 'What if the suspect WERE armed, and the officer hesitated?' 'What if the suspect had stopped and surrendured when requested?' 'What if he had not run?'
-Hank
"what cincinatti needs to do is put some controls on thier police murdering innocent black people & especially those who run away unarmed & in the oppisite direction"
There is a delicate balance between oppressive police and police who let anything slide. most people are against raciest police and most police are not raciest however there are some racist police but it is not easy to prove that they are raciest and are racial profiling. it is not hard to know who is racist but it is very hard to prove who is raciest young black people are more likely to be questioned by the police then anyone else HOWEVER if anyone is questioned by the police they should follow there orders then ask for their badge number and file a Complaint. When an officer tells you to put your hands up and you reach for your wallet you have a good chance of being shot.
Another note is most of the rioters in cincy don't give a rats ass about the person who died they are using it as an excuse to Comit there criminal acts.
My usual train makes (7) stops in Suffolk County. One would be
considered mostly white, two would be considered mostly minority and the rest mixed.
I remember you said once that you took the train from Islip (your car was broken into there). There are only 6 stops in Suffolk - Islip, Bay Shore, Babylon, Lindenhurst, Copiague and Amityville. I suppose Bay Shore and Amityville would be the mostly minority ones.
I alternate. Most of the time I use the main line from Brentwood because the schedule meets my needs better.
I alternate. Most of the time I use the main line from Brentwood because the schedule meets my needs better. C.I. and Wyandanch are mostly Minotity, Bethpage mostly white and the rest mixed.
Most of the time I use the main line from Brentwood because the schedule meets my needs better. C.I. and Wyandanch are mostly Minotity, Bethpage mostly white and the rest mixed.
I'd say that Brentwood is mostly minority too.
Brentwood has become a mostly hispanic community from Suffolk Ave to south to Spur Drive and Brentwood Rd. east to Islip Ave. North of Suffolk Ave, South of Spur Drive & East of Brentwood rd., it's still largely white. The users of the Brentwood train station are pretty well mixed.
And for those who have problems parking at Ronkonkoma branch stations, Brentwood has plenty of spots available during the day.They're located just east of the station on the westbound side.
And for those who have problems parking at Ronkonkoma branch stations, Brentwood has plenty of spots available during the day. They're located just east of the station on the westbound side.
Right, but people who take the LIRR from Ronkonkoma fancy themselves "upscale" (that's why all the anuses are suit-covered). They won't lower themselves to ride the train from Brentwood - after all, lots of (ick!) those people go from Brentwood. So they'd rather park in a muddy lot a half-mile from the Ronkonkoma platforms. Go figure.
kind of off topic here ?? you see if i comment on this then this will go on for two weeks about how my posts will be this
& or that ( of cource all off topic ) I would like to ESCAPE back to telling how i hope i can still shoot video with some REDBIRDS
left & or some motormen I am in touch with by mail are still there to shoot inside thier transverse cab ( LIKE A REDBIRD ) !!!
as for cincy ohio I would like to "" lay off this subject"" so that shouting fighting & off topic attacks will be mute & keep
this forum ON TOPIC ( rail transit systems worldwide ) discussion Q & A forum. I close with this, ignoring police butality murder
& mob attacks on any racial minorty group with total injustice can only bring out the worst out of anybody!! ( that is all ).....
GOOD LUCK TO SOUTH FERRY ON HIS TRIP TO SOUTH AMERICA !! ride all the rail transit systems there !! !!!!
Yesterday VIA Train 14 "The Ocean" derailed in Stewiacke, Nova Scotia sending 10 of the 14 classic stainless steel cars off the tracks. The dining car impacted legnthwise with an trackside building (feed stoarge mill) and was completely destroyed (bent 100 degrees in the middle, roof ripped appart, etc), but the other cars remained upright and relitivly undamaged. The locomotive and head baggage car stayed on the tracks as well as the last coach and the tailing dome car. Another dome car also avoided serious damage. Suspicion falls on a siding switch whose target clearly shows that it is set against the main line, but weather or not this happened before or during the derailment is not clear.
Due to the ROBUST construction of the classic stainless steel equipment (probably Budd) there were NO fatalities although some passengers were hospitialized.
Still makes me wonder about that diner. I wouldn't be surprised if it had its center sill cracked in one or more places beforehand.
Amtrak was going to "HEP" the ex-D&RGW diner Silver Banquet (the only one of 6 RG Zephyr cars they were to rebuild). When they stripped it down in Beech Grove in the mid-80's, they found the sill cracked in several places and threw in the towel. The car had been in a derailment around 1960.
Three y**ths were arrested on suspicion of throwing a switch that caused the derailment. Rather comprehensive story in Montreal Gazette.
What did you do with my U!
There is a set of MARX IRT cars available on E-Bay, Auction #1134200206. I will point out that I have a financial interest in this E-Bay auction. Not as a seller but as a potential buyer. Those into O gauge might want to take a look.
Dude: I have no idea what they'll go for on e-bay, but I found the Marx website, and they sell them new for either $310 or $400.
Its true: they're awfully cute. I almost considered making a bid, but I think I'll used my money instead to buy more of the upcoming MTH cars. (The R-21's are about a month away, and the R-32's are supposed to arrive in the summer.)
To anyone else who has been thinking of buying the MTH cars: These cars are being made in limited numbers. You need to pre-order them to ensure that you'll get some. Many stores I called had used up their quotas of both the R-21's and the R-32's. This is not to say that evryone who pre-ordered the trains will actually buy them, but why take a risk?
There are still a few R-42 models (without the blue stripe) floating around; the blue-stripe version is virtually sold out.
What gauge are these MTH's ?
In N Gauge, I wish someone would make some B-divsion bodies only. I can always get Green Max power chassis, and the combined total wouldn't break the bank. Getting EMU's in this country is virtually impossible, but easy in the UK (Grafar) or Japan.
MTH produces O tinplate - basically, a better-detailed Lionel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know what they sell for but I'm counting on the fact that not too many people will realize it. They'll look out of place next to my R-21s and R-42s but they're too cute to pass up.
Don't tell me PORK changed his handle again !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah... too many people had him in their killfile :-)
(Spoken by one who doesn't use the killfile option for anyone...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Louis Marx was NO Communist.
The IRT tended more to Tammany than Engels.
Some would assert that they (Tammany and Engels) are the same thing :~>
Engels? Is that the guy from "I'm Dickens - He's Fenster, also married to Shirley Jones?
Engels was an associate of Karl Marx
Oh, that Engles! Wrote "Principles of Communism" in Nov. 1847 and "The Communist Manifesto" with Marx in late 1847. My silly attempt at humor.
Engels was an associate of Karl Marx
Karl Marx was the looniest of all the Marx Brothers.
Judging by the dates of his rantings, he also had to be the oldest.
American Pig-- AmPig-- AmHam And you don't even hold an Amateur Radio license. From now on, I will call you AmHam. THE PIGVOLUTION CONTINUES
I am forwarding this updated information concerning the possible May 6 charters of the IRM PCC cars used to film "Ali." The date is still first priority and an application to the insurance company has been sent. CTA charges have also been tallied. May 12, is now considered as a back-up date if more time is needed. Anyone on SubTalk who is considering going on one of the two charters and would like to receive charter info first-hand should e-mail me.
The charter plans are still two trips, am and pm; from Howard Street, south to Ashland and to Midway and to Kimball. $50 for a trip and perhaps a discounted $80 for both.
David Harrison
Do you all want to know something? According to Trevor Logan's Roster, there are 1,425 Redbrids in service. 1,425! I didn't even include the hundreds of R32s! There are more Redbirds in service than there are buses in Houston's bus fleet! Yet, so many are you are sitting here complaining about the many minor problems the R142s are experiencing instead of going out and riding the Redbirds.
You want to know a story? Well, I don't care, I'm going to tell it anyway.
Once upon a time there was a boy named Jason. He loved RTS buses. He had grown up on these and the city he lived in had 288 of them (that's about 1,243 less than the CURRENTLY operating Redbirds) in his town. He always took these buses for granted thinking they'd be around forever. That was until 1998 when they retired about 60 of them. He started riding them more and more. In early 99, another 65 or so were retired. He started riding more and more, but still, he took so many of these buses for granted. In late 2000, 93 were retired. After that he realized their time was short. He rode like he never rode before, but alas, it was too late. Beginning last month another mass retirement began and only about 20 of these remain. Even less now that some of the brand new 32xx D40LFs have invaded the last RTS stronghold (with a grandtotal of about 12 RTS) of Fallbrook garage. He may never ride another RTS bus again, 2092 being the last one he rode last week. He didn't want it to end this way. Even his favorite RTS bus, 2150 is sitting in the old storage yard, stripped of stripes and number. What a poor fool Jason was.
The moral of that story was to let all you Redbird fans know instead of complaining, you should be riding. My time, er I mean, Jason's time has run out. It's too late for him. He was born after the RTS rolled in, and he didn't start riding buses regularly until 1996. That gave him less than a full 5 years to enjoy all the glory and happiness a simple RTS bus could bring. You all have over 1,000 Redbirds left that run regularly on sat lines. You don't have to wait two-three hours in blazing 90 degree temps and raging Houston humidity to ride something you love. Also, some of you were born before the Redbirds were even built. You've had nearly 40 years to enjoy them. Their time has passed. Those RTS were still good. The Redbirds, they're literally shells.
So please, stop the bitterness and just ride those rusty shells of your youth. Don't wait to late, you'll be sorry. Believe me.
R.I.P GMC-RTS 04 No. 2150
This is very good advice. I can think of two occasions where I've made use of it myself, but I'll spare everybody the details of those.
Instead, having had those two occasions in my own experience, I sent out some similar advice on a mailing list a few months ago advising everybody who wanted to take a 'last ride' on a particular kind of subway car to go and do so while they could still be found in service during rush hour peaks. Naturally this advice was completely disregarded at the time, and there's still a group of people who are planning to get together in late April to take a ride on some subway cars that were retired several months ago. I wonder how long they'll wait on the platform for a train that isn't going to come?
-Robert King
You're a practical man...
Gee, I see how Jason must feel. I remember when the New M-4s came out, I just wanted to ride the new trains. I was even on an Almond Joy when one of the new trains came around. So, I got off and rode the new one. Then, I never got to ride an Almond Joy ever again. Same with the N-5 cars. As soon as I got on a new train, I never got to ride the old ones anymore....Are there any Almond Joys in museums anywhere? I know that thee is one, just one, ex CTA car left, and it's on the side track of the rt 100 just as you leave 69th Street. Anyway, ride those redbirds. No offense to you guys, but when I rode one, it was just like the E trains (R32s, which I never liked and led me to hate the NYC subway cars).
The R-32s are made by Budd, just like the Almond Joys. They are the best old equipment on the NYC Subway, and they're better that the R-62s and R-68s too. Why? Because they're BUDD BUILT.
Heh. Yes, as an antique railroader, I do appreciate the hell out of Budd toys ... but the reason for their longevity is the use of Stainless Steel (and the neat ripples too of course) which doesn't do what the Rustbirds do, sprinkling ashes through the tunnels. :)
Still, I'd take the patina of an R1/9 anyday - when I did my stint hauling geese, I was GIVEN a choice of the shiny new Budds or the "old wrecks." Color me nostalgic for my tender age of 19 at the time ... I went for the "old wrecks" ... once the birds are gone though, those Budd cars will become the "old wrecks" ... *SAVOR* them like I did with my favorite toy.
It was a very sad day in my life when the ACF's and Pullmans went to the torch. Had they been maintained, they'd probably STILL be running today. No joke. Only a standard could have killed them. (grin)
Glad to hear another ex-TA person loved the R1-9; IMHO they were a grand piece of equipment.Even if I hate to admit it looks like the R32 will be the standout model of the postwar era. I still live the memories of the system as I knew it in childhood and youth. IRT mostly, of course.
As a Bronx boy myself, there was nothing but the IRT and LoV/HiV and all, broke a tooth on a pole on a LoV when I was 6 ... that musta been what did it ... but as nice as the IRT cars were and they were the local ride when I was a kid, nothing said SUBWAY!!! like the mighty IND cars ... they were big and they meant business compared to the tinier cars on the IRT.
Being hired on a conductor on the R1/9's was a treat - LOVED playing car monkey and I was 19 at the time which made it all the more a thrill playing daredevil between cars for the babes ... but having a cab to myself was absolutely the teats ... MY train ... mine, mine, mine. There's just no greater hardon than that. :)
To me, there was no greater thrill in the world possible than leaving the center track at 145th heading southbound, mering into 125th and then wrapping that rascal southbound, not a care in the world until just south of 72nd when I had to start yanking back on the controller and getting ready for 59th. Sex could NOT compare with the throttle of a mighty R9 with working motors down CPW, dusting every local in sight. And with other R1/9's on the local track, and dusting THOSE, it was sweet. I truly miss it now.
Only thing that might beat THAT experience would be the hot throttle of an R-10 making its way along CPW. I've been on a couple of those beasts in full flight and they could move better than 50. The fastest R-1/9 class cars I rode were the R-6-2; the R-1s were fast too IF they had all working or mostly working motors. Towards the end of their lives, this was a very rare occurrence.
wayne
Yep ... I used to ride to work (and back home) on the 10's ... while they had a faster pickup than the 1/9er's, they were lighter and somehow even the 1/9'ers would dust the 10's once they were up to speed. For a brief while, some of the 10's had found their way onto the CC line so there was the occasional opportunity to pass some when they were running on the local tracks. Not a fair drop though. :)
And yeah, when you had some motors, the 1/9er's would literally FLY.
I used to work for Budd when our company (Gindy Trailers) sold out to them and we became "The Budd Company Trailer Division". At the end. they dumped us, and sold us to a private guy (Bill Thayer) , and we
went out of business. Therefore , my memories of Budd are not too keen as I look back. They did make excellent railcars, though.
You guys are right, with their stainless steel bodies, they will
be around for quite some time!
Chuck Greene
Yeah, the R32s are awesome. I love those cars. They're made totally out of stainless steel, and the A/C is nice and cold. I like the interiors, too.
Sao Paulo Line 1 subway cars were also built by Budd. Those have ATO, so those are even better than the R32s. Budd built some great cars.
They also built the M-1's too, which are damn good trains.
They also built the M-1's too, which are damn good trains.
Were, maybe. Are, definitely not.
Better than one of those crappy R68's anyday.
You know, it seems like all the good rail vehicles originated from Philadelphia. Brill, Budd....too bad they are out of busines.
They also made PATCO's trains, way better than the M-1s. Interesting how both PATCO and Metro North (CDOT) chose to use BUDD's design on their future orders even though they had to use a different company...
The PATCO cars baby!! (Vickers Canada-a part of another aerospace firm getting in on the rail transit biz, built the II's under license from Budd.) It's a shame Budd is reduced to being a brand name for auto parts now, BTW I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but Bombardier owns the rights to all the Budd designs, so when the ADtrash M4's finally fall apart in 15 years, SEPTA will call up bombardier to get new Almond Joy's (VERY wishful thinking I know). I hope that PATCO goes to Bombardier for an updated design of the current cars when they finally go to buy new cars.
I'm giving The Adtrash fleet 5 years (anybody want to join the pool). BTW, if Bombardier builds the "Almond Joy II" then they should have an updated version of The Westinghouse 1454A traction motors (or it's design).
Hey, you know, the N-5 cars are over five years old, and they are still running strong, especially on the rough route 100. I'm sure that the Adtranz trains will last at least 20 years if now more.
They should have AC motors.
Not on a 600VDC system. AC motors are fine for Amtrak and commuter rail, but not for light rail nor rapid transit.
phase choppers which control AC frequency also convert DC to AC making it irrelevant what type of source is used.
And AC wire is the best for of train power.
But there is the weight issue as well (those inverters on the M-4 cars are heavy, the reason why the construction quality was compromised), plus they do make brushless DC motors too, so DC technology has improved as well.
Once you already have the computer to control a brushless motor, you might as well go with AC. You don't need resistors which just turn unused energy into heat.
But at least the inverter could be done away with (just another needless piece of equipment), that is also why The Silverliners should have AC motors so the AC/DC converter should be done away with as well.
But AC motors are much more energy efficient.
And AC wire is the best for of train power.
Overhead catenary would not work in any of the tube lines on the London Underground due to clearance reasons. There may be clearance problems prohibiting catenary installations on other systems as well. London Underground does use AC propulsion on both the 1995 and 1996 tube stocks too (although there are some differences in the electronics between the two stocks which makes them sound different).
-Robert A. King
I agree with you right there. I just find it funny that a Japanese railcar manufacturer is carrying on The Budd tradition (which I am grateful for that too).
What in the world is an Almond Joy? I do not mean the candy bar. Where can they be found, and how did they get that name?
An Almond Joy is a Budd M-3, now retired... used in Philadephia. They were so named because of the two humps on the top that looked like the almonds on top of the candy bar of the same name. There is one set (of five?) preserved as a work train in Philly and two single cars - one at Seashore and one elsewhere, Rockhill I think.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the information. I was feeling like I came from outer space or something for a time there. Again, thanks.
I think they had 4 or 5 bumps, not 2. The M-4 cars have a single long bump and they can be referred to a Mounds.
You're right, four humps... click here for a photo elsewhere on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, The B-IV's are referred to as "Mounds" because they are the close cousin to The Almond Joy.
M-4 are known right now as adtrash. phila residents know why but they will change there attitudes down the line
Philadelphia residents know why they are so bad? What do you mean? People like the new trains, it's much nicer than the old trains. At least, to ride in, I'm not sure about driving it.
>>> An Almond Joy is a Budd M-3, <<<
Which looks like this:
Tom
One is going to join the PCC car undergound at the Muesum on Market Street. Saw a picture in Railpace.
Saw one in "Maximum Risk" too.
But there isn't any room down there!
Actually there were 4 bumps on top of the roof of each car.
Not Rockhill, PTM (Pennsylvania Trolley Museum AKA Arden) - the only other wide gauge museum in the land.
Yes, the R32s are fine pieces of rolling stock, much nicer than the R38s, 42s and all Redbirds. It really bugs me that the TA didn't buy more cars from Budd. Did the TA have some kind of bias toward St. Louis Car in the 50s and 60s. I just wish there was an IRT version of the R32s.
BTW, since the R33 and R36 contracts came after the R32s, why weren't they built at least partly out of stainless steel like the R38s were? Was it some kind of twisted logic on the part of the TA? Budd cars rule! What a shame the IRT never saw a single Budd car in service.
I believe that the TA already let the R-33 and R-36 contracts before they discovered the glory of Budd.
Then, when they decided to start getting stainless steel cars, instead of going with 100% quality Budd built equipment, they went with St. Louis Crap Company's stainful steel frame and roof. Now the R-32 will outlast all of it's successors, maybe even the R-44.
Also don't forget the World's Fair factor -- The R-33/36 WF trains had to be in service by April 22, 1964 on the No. 7 train, in order to be part of the fair's gala opening (wouldn't want to piss off Bob Moses now, would we?). By going with a train design that was pretty much eight years old, the TA knew the trains wouldn't have the teething problems certain other cars have experienced.
Not that Budd was making major component changes compared to, say the R-44s or the R-142s, but there was probably a lot of "go with what you know" involved in the final decision. The window and door changes on the WF cars from the standard mainline layout do show the design modifications on them and the R-32s came at roughly the same time, and the bluebird paint scheme did make those cars the nicest looking ones the IRT has ever had.
Are there any Almond Joys left, the answer is yes. SEPTA retains 5 cars for work service (I am the happiest that I see them on The El when the line is closed for maintenance). There is one (606) at The Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington, Pa. (just outside of Pittsburgh), and there is another (618) at The Seashore Railway Museum in Kennebunkport, Me. Sadly, all of the married pairs are gone (even my favorite, 711/712). I hope that answers your question. Almond Joys Forever!
gee. Hey, does anyone know what happened to the old rt 100 cars, particularly that ex CTA L pair that used to be on the side tracks at 69th Street? I looked for it, but it was gone!
My guess is that The ex-CTA cars were scrapped and the parts were used for The PCC's, 8 out of the 10 Brill Bullets were preserved at various museums (200 was scrapped due to an accident at 69th Street, another was scrapped because of vandalism, it was owned by The Buckingham Valley Trolley association, it was stored at Front Street, South of Girard Avenue, under I-95). 7 ex-Strafford cars are preserved, and The Almond Joys are scrapped because SEPTA didn't want them back on The Market-Frankford Line.
I know that the building is still there in North Philly. Would it be possible for some enterprising buissnessman (or company) to buy the building, buy the plans, buy the techniques and start making railcars in the tradition of Budd? How about the Budd Railcar Division of Bethlehem Steel? Woah, makes you tingle.
The trains and the rails under them all made by the same company. Interesting concept.
Would be nice if we could have an All-American passenger car builder again. The last attempt I know of went bellyup...there may be some I don't know about. Morrison-Knudsen not only did some major rebuilding but built cars from rail level up too, at least the 3200's for the Chicago el, perhaps others. Don't know the real reason American builders can't do passenger cars, or MU ones if nothing else. Just gone the way of most American manufacturing? Maybe somebody knows more reasons. Think MK is still around but gave up on passenger cars for the money losses; IIRC Budd was German-controlled after their problems with the M-l's (LIRR) knocked them out for a while, then they gave up completely..IIRC their last order was the Chicago 2600 and up series?
The passenger railcar business is brutal. I think part of the problem is the high cost of liability; others include specific technical requirements which are not consistent among American and Canadian transit agencies. A passenger suffering an unfortunate event, whatever the cause, would have a more difficult time bringing a lawsuit against the Munich Metro than NYC Transit. Numbers also matter: When GE Capital buys intermodal freight cars, for example, the purchase order might be for thousands and thousands of them. And freight cars (except for refrigerator cars) don't need air conditioning, nor station announcements, nor scratch-resistant glass. NYC Transit buys quantities in the hundreds to single thousands. It's more difficult to make money.
>>> Don't know the real reason American builders can't do passenger cars, or MU ones if nothing else. Just gone the way of most American manufacturing? Maybe somebody knows more reasons. <<<
May I suggest that the real reason was that the companies with the engineering capacity and technology to produce modern passenger cars got a much better return on investment by concentrating on fat cost plus defense contracts.
Tom
"May I suggest that the real reason was that the companies with the engineering capacity and technology to produce modern
passenger cars got a much better return on investment by concentrating on fat cost plus defense contracts."
Two problems with that reasoning: 1) Major defense contractors have generally not been in the passenger railcar business historically (Boeing Vertol being an exception), and, in fact, these are different markets requiring different, though sometimes overlapping, skill-sets. Bombardier makes airplanes and trains, but they are not big into defense markets. 2) Cost-plus defense contracts have been relatively rare starting at least a decade ago. None of the new defense contracts (F-22, JSF ) are cost-plus.
The real answer is probably related to market size. We buy a zillion cars a year; NYC Transit accounts for most subway car purchases in North America - and even they hardly order enough to keep a major manufacturer going on just that.
Brill, for one was done in by Convair. Just one more example of the corrosive effect of allowing the pentagon to throw money down the toilet.
True. However, I don't think you can point to the Pentagon or defense conbtractors as culprits in the exiting of Budd and Pullman-Standard (which is still in the freight car business, I think) from the passenger railcar business, nor the remaking of Westinghouse from an industrial to a financial business. Their leadership simply saw better profits in other commercial businesses, and went in that direction.
Westinghouse..I took a shine to that company for years; maybe because I thought the name sounded tough, I don't know but the were a pretty upstanding company who made good merchandise. I watched them abdicate one market after another beginning with heavy traction in the mid-50's meaning locomotive motors,, generators, etc, down to first small and then large home appliances. But they definitely were not alone in that respect. Being money changers as well as the defense scene makes more money than production and you don't need all those pesty low-life blue collar people on your neck for better benefits and conditions. [NOT my opinion, I'm one of them]
My opinion as a lifetime conservative [believe it or not] is that these huge conglomerates holding ever more of the business strength in this country, including the dwindled number of mega-railroads, STINKS. So does moving all your manufacturing that's possible out of the country to get rid of labor. But that's my minority opinion.
Rapid Transit cars should have been standardized long ago; you could take almost the identical machinery and serve many systems including electric suburban lines; take your pick of IRT-Chicago type size, IND-BMT size, or 85 foot suburban. I'll spare the details for now but in earlier days braking systems, traction motors, and to one degree or another control systems weren't that much different and some were identical: OK for one: the AMUE brake systems used on IRT, BMT,SIRT, and the DL&W MU's possibly others.
True, all these orders for all transit systems of any form still wouldn't equal the freight car business. My bottom line is there are some people who can't or won't go to college and if everyone did there wouldn't be jobs for all anyway: there have to be some middle class [which has seriously dwindled] it would be nice to see plants building things here at some decent wages rather than [like Montana e.g.] too much low wages with people needing food stamps , rent subsidies, etc etc even with two incomes. Not to mention trade deficits negative to the USA. I fail to see where the equation works in the long run.
Well Bombardier is not an American (i.e., United States) company, but it is a North American company, and it does have plants in New York State and Vermont.
It's notable that bus manufacturing is more diverse now that General Motors no longer dominates that market. It's still a tough business to be in, but the market is big enough to allow several American companies to compete.
I think there's a lot of value and dignity in so-called "blu-collar work." And today, a lot of blue-collar jobs require the worker to use his/her brain as much as the hands. American workers are still a lot more productive than many workers doing similar jobs in foreign countries.
Brill killed itself. The company refused to build PCC cars when the industry was headed that way, then, as the bus industry was moving yo diesel-hydraulic buses, Brill refused to build anything but gasoline powered buses.
Their last railcars were the 10 Brilliners for Red Arrow in 1940, and their last bus was sometime in the 1950's. The Company was defunct by the 1960's.
The last daughter of the Brill family, Anna Brill Ruckdeschiel, passed away in 2000. A lovely lady, and still remembering the streetcar era well into her 90's.
I already took that advice some 20 years ago!
About 20 years ago, I discovered the venerable Lackawanna MUs at Hoboken Terminal. I took a chance when exiting the PATH Hoboken station to see what this Hoboken Terminal was all about. I couldn't believe my eyes as well as my ears !
I took a ride to Summit and back and next weekend, invited my 3 friends to tag along and ride to Summit. As the months went by, my riding changed to photographing, especially the countryside west of Summit. Then word got out that the old cars were to be retired and re-electrification was to begin.
Within the next 3 years, there was plenty of photographing as well as stereo sound recordings. I was driving from Long Island to New Jersey almost every weekend and sometimes Saturday and Sunday. My friend who is an RCI with the NYCTA loved the old equipment. We would park at Summit and ride to Gladstone and back. We would get friendly with the engineer and conductor and they would let us ride free! Oh those memorable warm nights returning from Gladtstone with the windows open riding at night.
This all came to an end on August 24, 1984 when the old MU's were retired. Sound recordings and photographs at Dover spelled the end. Riding and photographing Jersey Arrows or Comet push-pulls doesn't have the same appeal. But in the 3 years since innocently discovering the old MUs a lot of photography, recordings and memoried were crammed before they were retired. August 24, 2004 will mark 20 years since the retirement. 20 years......Where did the time go ?
So RTS 2150 is right, don't take anything for granted. Before you know it they will all be gone. You can't turn back the clock!
Bill "Newkirk"
Good advice. In 1963, I went under the Orleans Street Viaduct on the 8 line dozens of times and thought "this will make a great place to take streetcar pictures from". I never did. Early in the morning of Sunday, November 3, 1963 the streetcar dissapeared from the streets of Baltimore forever. So, don't pass up any rail or transit experiences you have. They won't come back.
You've reminded me of something that I hadn't thought of earlier...
When I was a kid back in the late 1980s I had a little Argus camera which took 110 cartridge film. Anyways, my family lived in the neighbourhood where the Yonge subway runs through an open cut that has quite a few bridges crossing it, including one for pedestrians only. I used to spend hours watching subway trains including the Gloucsters in their last few years (and I knew and understood that they were being retired for good at the time) and realized that those bridges were the perfect location to take pictures of them with my little 110 camera. I was never able to save up enough money for a few cartridges of film and consequently never took any pictures of the trains at the time.
A few years later, after the Argus had been broken on a school trip, I was given a basic Konica 35mm camera, but I wasn't able to take pictures of the last PCCs because I still couldn't afford to buy film in addition to covering my ordinary expenses at the time.
However, I did a huge ammount of recreational riding back then so I never missed out on riding the Gloucsters or the PCCs before they were gone. In that respect I didn't miss out, but I still really regret not doing whatever it would take to scrounge the money together to get a single roll of film during those years.
-Robert King
I had a little Argus camera which took 110 cartridge film.
I did't realize Argus survived into the 110 era. My first 35mm was an Argus C3, affectionately known as "the Brick". Of course, I'm old enough that my previous cameras used 127, 616, 116, and 120 film... My next 35mm was a Kodak Retina IIa that my older son still uses. (And yes, I've still got the Brick, although it hasn't seen a roll of film in over 30 years now.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was sure that Argus is still around in some form because I saw some recent Argus 110 cameras for sale in various drug stores a few months ago.
On another note, having just written late last night that I was unable to photograph Gloucsters when I was a kid because I couldn't afford film, it was by chance that I rode by a yard this afternoon and saw a unit of Gloucsters that had been converted for use as workcars sitting outside in a yard parked in a perfect position for photography from the outdoor parking lot of an apartment building. So, I got off the subway and went to the best vantage point behind the apartment buildings next to the yard and made sure to take pictures. Luck sometimes happens at the strangest of times...
-Robert King
Good advice, but...how many of those RTSs were retired prematurely due to fire? When I worked at the Maryland MTA in the '80s, at any time there were at least two burned-out RTSs in the yard. One of the first ones I ever rode had no air conditioning, and the original sealed windows. IN JULY. 60 minutes of torture, made even worse by my having to use the toilet.
RTS II. Firetraps, I tell you.
Only one RTS caught fire for Metro. It was No. 2181. That was back in 1997. Up until that time and before 2166 was retired sometime in late 1996, the RTS fleet was intact for 13 years. They were the best buses Metro ever had.
Hey Jason, err RTS2150. I can vouch for what you say. I left town in 1954 and the Triplexes were riding full steam on the #4 Sea Beach Line. When I returned in 1974 for the first time in 20 years my favorites were gone, consigned to the scrap heap. Enjoy those Redbirds while you can, just as Jason says, because at least they are still running. I'd do just about anything to ride in the front car of a Triplex Sea Beach, but all I can do is look at that color photo my buddy Newkirk gave me. It's sitting in my living room all framed nicely, and I picture myself moving through the frame and riding one of those again. But it is all in my imagination. So I second the motion, enjoy the Redbirds while you can and ride, ride, ride, not complain.
When the SEPTA M-4s were coming in, I honestly thought there was going to be a mix of M-4s and M-3s. There seemed to be a perfect mix, after all, the last time I rode the M-3s. As a result, I let them go, in the hopes of getting an air-conditioned M-4. I was very angry when I left that my last ride on the MFL would have to be on an M-3, it was either that or miss my train. Well, I go visit a year later and BAM! They're all gone. No more whistle of the conductor (or conductor at all), no more blinking lights or propped open storm doors, no more ksssh of the air doors, no more deafening roar while crossing under the river. The lack of a PA system gave the whole thing an air of mystery to it, let's see what the next stop will be kindof thing. I'm now glad I had to take it that one last time.
This evening at Continental Avenue, there was a trainset of R-46s ready to go into service on the R. Nothing strange there, except that the front end (car #6202) was signed with the brown R-diamond!
Oh, where's a camera when you need one?!
I believe everyone here has seen this train.
Not so much "this train" but it is just a matter of the person preparing a given train for service looked for "R" and didn't notice that there are 2 "R"'s in there, one brown diamond, one round yellow. Didn't matter to him!
I beleive that particular sign is broken. Otherwise, it would've been corrected years ago.
Um, not everyone here gets out to Queens on a regular basis, and even those who do may not ride the R.
I had one when I saw this train at Woodhaven Boulevard. Take a look! (20.0-11)
Recently I've been taking pictures for the NJCL section of this website; one of the shots I took is of the long-closed North Asbury Park station. Today I acquired an old postcard, circa 1910, showing a view of the same station. The covered inbound platform on the left side of the photo is now a street, with a low commercial building where the park is in the picture. The station building on the right hasn't changed radically in the 90+ years since the earlier photograph was taken.
Anyway, thought you might enjoy...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For how long has the station been closed? It seems remarkably intact for a closed station. Heck, it's in a lot better shape than the city of Asbury Park :-)
It was still open in 1950... not sure when the last train stopped, my guess is the '60s - if someone has a timetable collection they might be able to tell us. I have a Conrail-issued timetable (late '70s) that does not list the station. There is an antique shop, if you can call it that, occupying the building now; I have my suspicions that the antique business, however legitimate that may be, is also a cover for other activities.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you want to take advantage of this special operation then you'd better act quick!
>>>>>>>>>>>>This special operation takes place on Saturday Morning, April 14th between 945am and 1130 am to see if G service can co-exist with V service on Queens Blvd.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Here are the service changes:
E-Operates express between Continental Ave and Jamaica-Van Wyck (same as during the weekday)
F-Normal service via 53rd Street. Outside of this special operation, the F line will be operating via 63rd Street due to a separate GO.
G-Northbound runs local IN SERVICE between Smith-9 Sts and 179th St Jamaica.
Southbound runs light (no passengers) between 179th St and Continental Av. G enters service at Ctl.Av and runs local to Smith-9 Sts. OPTO suspended during this operation.
R-Normal service
V-Operates IN SERVICE in both directions between 57 St/7 Av via 63rd Street and runs local to Continental Av. Trains will have "S" signs.
You've been warned!
(G) running to 179th ST. ?
Will the (F) run express from 71st St/Continental ? If the TA caves in from pressure of the shortened (G), it would be nice if the (F) ran express from 71st St/Continental.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes the F will run express, thus "normal service".
So if the G does stay on Queens Blvd, it'll go to 179 St. This is smart as Continental cannot handle three lines on the lower level. Let's hope it works.
A question, and a comment.
Question: Will headways be of the same frequency so as to simulate rush hour service?
Comment: Even if "yes" to the above, passenger loads will not be as great, so dwell times will be shorter.
In my opinion, to do this test correctly, it would have to be done on a weekday during rush hour.
I don't think ridership would allow that but lets see what happens tomorrow morning.
It's not whether ridership can handle it, rather it's "where are you gonna turn around the G"?
Okay, now that the test was done, let's figure out the theory behind this:
A) Gee, maybe we don't have to terminate the (G) at Court Square after all. Let's see if this works and save us a lot of grief.
B) Let's just do this and show them it can't be done. We'll tell them we ran a test and it was a failure.
C) Let's flip a quarter. Heads, it's Court Square........tails, it's Queens Plaza.
Bill "Newkirk"
"Let's flip a quarter. Heads, it's Court Square........tails, it's Queens Plaza."
Yeah, and if it is tails, it'll run to Queens Plaza for a week and then everybody will complain about E/F/R/V hold ups for the G to turn around and they'll just pretend they flipped heads.
"Yes the F will run express, thus "normal service".
ZMAN,
I believe the (F) does not run express after the (E) leaves Queens Blvd. It has been discussed here recently about running the (F) express and the (V) local to 179th.
Perhaps the TA can swap routes and have the (G) run to Continental and the (V) to 179th. If this is a sucess, what about the shortage of equipment to handle this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
NEWKIRK,
Sorry, but when you said "is the F running express from Continental Av?" that can be taken in two different contexts.
To answer your question, the F will be running local between 179 St and Continental Av, and then express between Continental Av and Queens Plaza. Just like it does during any other day of the week. THUS NORMAL SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!! (Of course I'm yelling in a friendly way Bill!)
As far as the equipment shortage, they'll probably still get the R68's on the G line since there is no way that the Jamaica Yard fleet can handle 5 lines worth of equipment. And of course some R68's could make their way onto the F (hey, it has happened).
No keep those Hippos off the express track! Man I hate those things!
YOU hate those things?
Betcha I hate them more than you!
I don't care for them, either. That's all I'm going to say.
The R46 have V signs don't they? Why don't they just use them instead of S.
Because the V train doesn't exist yet!
"Because the (V) train doesn't exist yet! "
They don't want to confuse the passengers who already heard of the new (V) service. Not only does (S) stand for shuttle,(S) stands for SPECIAL, which is what this service will be.
Bill "Newkirk"
But the 46's do have the front signs, right?
"But the 46's do have the front signs, right?"
Right you are. I saw an out of service (S) train at 21st St/Queensbridge with the lights out. The last car was signed up for (V) !
Bill "Newkirk"
I wish I could've seen that. Well by fall we'll be seeing the V on a more permanent basis, hopefully.
R-46 = versatility.
Let me understand this. The Queens Blvd locals will be the S (in place of V), R and G. You do not have rush hour crowds, everything is controlled and simulated. Let's say it is an unqualified success and this turns out to be the service plan. Where so we get the extra cars from? 63rd St. service does not go via Sixth Ave. but Bway instead? With the MannyB flip? If the R and S (aka "V") terminate at CTL, then the G gets delayed entering CTL because it has to contend with the other services discharging passengers when/if actual service starts. I am totally confused. LOL!
That's all the more reason to send the "G" to 179th Street and run the "F" express as well.
wayne
Which would require even more cars, and this doesn't eliminate the problem of G trains waiting for R and V trains terminating at Continental creating a bottleneck, one which already exists during the rush hour anyway with only 2 lines.
I believe this test is merely the wimpy MTA's attempt to appease whining G riders, and that the test will fail, so they can tell these crybabies "we tried".
I don't see why the current 15 trains per hour (9-R, 6-G) should cause a bottleneck at Continental. I think it is merely poor dispatching.
The trains are delayed as they are checked for passangers who don't get off. During the PM rush, trains do get backed up all the way to 67th Ave.
Well maybe they should stop doing that. If they don't get off, they'll spend some time in the yard, maybe fine them for trespassing if it was intentional, and they won't do it again.
That is easier said than done. Some of them are homeless, and a few of them are insane. Some just might like the idea of going to jail, where they will get a bed, change of clothes, shower, hot food, and free medical and dental care.
Some of you guys are hot stuff in your total disregard for the safety of the transit workers and riding public. All passengers are supposed to be removed from trains at places like Continental, 179, Smith/9th for good reason: to protect both passengers and crew. Suppose a woman does not get off, is locked inside an R46 car, and I am the motorman who relays the train. If that woman accuses me of rape, or some other kind of assault, the TA will take me out of service and at best put me on a platform till I can prove my innocence. Take this true story; Some years ago, a female t/o was relaying a train at Continental. She comes to a car in which a guy was supposedly sleeping. This low life "wakes up", physically attacks this woman and broke her finger so he could get a quick fix for her wedding ring. I hope SubTalkers don't get like the riding public: do whatever it takes to get the trains moving. If you get hurt, my train will still be there, the TA can just put another sucker into the motormans or conductors cab.
Video cameras in every car should solve that problem.
Not every car, where would all this be recorded? When will the tape be changed? A random bunch of cars with hidden cameras as well as "your actions may be videotaped" stickers in all cars will deter many potential offenders.
On a related note: How are 7811-7810 doing with their video camera test project? Is crime down in that particular pair?
Digital storage and cameras are more compact than older surveilance systems.,
And how much is that going to cost? Where and how can the people in the cars be viewed by the crew? Put TV screens in every #1 cab of a 75 foot car? What about a 60 foot car, those cabs are cramped already! Wouldn't the vandals cover the lens when they find out where it is?
Well that's rather stupid.
"Oh sir, you can't assault me. There's a video camera up there and it...POW!"
How will a video camera stop an assault on a laid up train? All it would allow is the motorman to watch the events, as no TO in his right mind would attempt to stop an armed man from commiting an act of violence. And let's say he radios the police, then wat? It would be very difficult for them to get to a G train laid up on the express track at 4th Ave.
Evidently the attack occurred in the station with the homeless check before the train went to the yard, so it makes no difference. The TA has a rotten attitude toward its employees and should have first accuse the woman of trespassing and enforrce it. They could have a cop walking each train bewteen Contintental northbound and southbound, but that's hard to do with locked end doors.
Does the TA waste time doing similar "bedchecks" before other out-of-station relays at 179th, Broad Street, Brooklyn Bridge ?
Yup. 205th St in the Bronx, Euclid Ave. in Brooklyn, Utica Ave.(IRT) in Brooklyn, Bay Parkway (on the M), 168th St. (IND), and the J/M lines when they are scheduled to terminate at Chambers St.
Don't forget Smith-9 Sts on the G and Bowling Green on the 5.
Right, Bowling Green on the 5. So how come they can manage more than 15 trains an hour on the Lex at Bowling Green when the 5 terminates, but not at Continental ?
The Bowling Green turn around is a loop around South Ferry. Continental is a relay move. Takes time to turn around. This is what makes Bowling Green and Brooklyn Bridge the easiest turn arounds.
It was indeed a smart move IRT planners made with those loop tracks.
BMT planners made plans for a loop for the Bway Lcl tracks north of 57th St that way the locals could turn around there and the exp keep going to Astoria/Continental instead of the other way around where in 1970s and early 80s the N and Q/QB turned around at 57/7 and the R kept going. Should've been the other way around.
Well, not entirely. Both terminals on these loops cannot be used today by trains. The idea of looping a train instead of relaying it would speed things along, if the IND thought of that.
Cuz the 5 doesn't terminate at Bowling Green during the rush hours. Only during midday and weekends, when capacity doesn't exceed 8 TPH.
Duh!
The attack did not occur in the station. It occurred "in the hole". It happened as the t/o was walking thru the train from one end to the other so she could bring the train into CTL to make a southbound trip.
Why do that to every train? Don't most trains just end up on the inbound platform for a return trip anyway? It might allow an extra train to get through and it would reduce delays.
So just leave them on there was it reverses. To get stuck on a train as it reverses is the best punishment for stupidity!
What if the train is headed for the yard? What if the person reacts violently to being trapped? Homeless people would love to remain on an out of service train for a chance at peaceful sleep.
In reality, it can't be done.
What if the train is headed for the yard? What if the person reacts violently to being trapped? Homeless people would love to remain on an out of service train for a chance at peaceful sleep.
In reality, it can't be done.
On the Brooklyn side, when all the F trains went express to Church Ave. many moons ago, the people at Carroll St., Smith/9, 4th Ave, 15/Prospect Park and Fort Hamilton Pkwy. bitched and moaned that they lost their direct/no transfer required service to Manhattan. Should the G terminate at 179 St. eventually, whenever the TA has enough cars, which the cynic in me says won't arrive till the next century the way new cars seem to be coming in, the passengers at 75 Ave., Van Wyck/Briarwood, Supthin Blvd. & 169 St. will do exactly what the Brooklyn people did: bitch and moan that instead of 1 train to Manhattan, they now need 2. As it was, they despised the R becasue it went local west of Continental and changed for the E or F anyway. Even if you cross the E to the local to serve 75 Ave and VanWyck/Briarwood, then you'll have the E & G getting to the interlocking at the same time, even though on paper of course, it would never happen! Humaniods are creatures of habit, especially NYC Transit passengers. They want improvements, but based on the physical structure of the system and the useless 63rd St. connection which was supposed to connect with a brand new line and not the Queens Blvd, IND, for each passenger who gets an improvement, the next passenger gets the shaft.
I shouldn't say "next century", that is a bit of an exaggeration. I should have said: "next decade".
". . . send the "G" to 179th Street and run the "F" express as well."
Why send the G? Why not the R or V? Better a Manhattan service going there, no?
New Flyer #857
Yeah, I hate seeing that racetrack of an express stretch from Union Turnpike to Parsons Blvd. go to waste (although E trains use it for part of the way). Right, Wayne?:-)
There will be a point for three services to proceed passed Continental. And when that happens, 179 St exp service {today's F} runs express, Parsons exp service {today's E} runs local so as to provide direct 169th/Stuphin/Briarwood/75th Ave service to exp west of Continental, 179 St lcl service {either R or V, not G b/c it is easiest to turn at Continental} making all stops all along the line.
first, the g will be turning at 23 ely ave.
second, what will then go to parsons?
"There will be a point for three services to proceed passed Continental. And when that happens, 179 St exp service {today's F} runs express, Parsonsexp service {today's E} runs local so as to provide direct 169th/Stuphin/Briarwood/75th Ave service to exp west of Continental, 179 St lcl service {either R or V, not G b/c it is easiest to turn at Continental} making all stops all along the line."
Why do you insist on the E making local stops to 179th Street when we all know the E now serves the Jamaica Center terminal? Why not simplify things by having the R and V go to 179th Street. In other words, limit the confusion and make passengers want to use the system.
The R and V are the best options, because, there is no switching involve. When ever there is switching, you delay service on the line the another train crosses in front of.
E - (Express) Jamaica Center or World Trade Center (Express All Times)
F - (Express) 179th Street or Coney Island (Local Nights)
G - (Local) 71st Street or Smith 9th Street (No nights)
R - (Local) 179th Street or 95th Street (No nights)
V - (Local) 179th Street or 95th Street (Rush Hour Only)
If I could have things my way, I would make the G a non rush hour train. And during the day (midday), I would eliminate the V. But maintain a 8tph on the E line the rest of the day to accomodate passengers who once used the F service there.
N Broadway Line
I'm sorry. I meant E local as far as it goes and then go to Parsons. My fault.
"But maintain a 8tph on the E line the rest of the day to accomodate passengers who once used the F service there."
Will people be satisfied with that? Remember, with no F and in your plan no V, this will be all they have.
I happin to see then This Morning and I was on the F. I saw alot of R46's with the "S" Rollsign. Some of them have the Ornage "S" Rollsign. It looked not too bad. It just that Between 63 Dr and 71 Ave it was going slow. But one side LCD sign on a R46 say this."SPECIAL". BUT somehow I did saw a R68 on the G Line this morning at Queens Plaza. It was in 6 75 Foot Car sets. That was the first time I ever saw a R68 on the G Line. I do think that have the V to go to 179 St and keep the R and G Lines going to 71 Ave. Or have the V Line to 179 St. R to Jamaica Center. G stay at 71 Ave. How about that Idea? I do hope it's going to be every saturday until july. This afternoon. I was hopeing for a G to come to Queens Plaza. BUT did not see any G's comming to Queens Plaza. Was they doing this in the afternoon too? Of that part is going to be next saturday?
G R68 #2805
S R46 #5900
>BUT somehow I did saw a R68 on the G Line this morning at Queens Plaza. It was in 6 75 Foot Car sets.
How could that be ? I thought all except the Franklin Shuttle bunch were drawbarred into 4 car sets ?
Relly.It was like this.
A-A-A-B-B-A.
Like that.
It was one of the two-car sets from the Franklin Shuttle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well there were TWO R68's on the G on Saturday.
1)2816,17,19,18,2916,2918
2)2872,73,75,74,2922,2923
I jotted these down while moving so if a # is messed up, well......tuff :)
I guess the Franklin shuttle fleet has at least 2916,2918,2922,2923
What are the others ?
I recall two trains during middays for the last year running on the Franklin Shuttle they were: 2920-2921 and 2918-2922{or 2918-2923}
These always ran on the shuttle for the year 2000 and the beginning of 2001. I haven't been to the area of it in a while, but I did pass by on Saturday to see a train of R-40s signed up for the "S." The first and third cars had the orange "S." The second and fourth had the yellow "S." This was on the side signs.
.....are the last 9 R68's: 2916 to 2924.
What are the 5 doing when 4 are in service ?
I heard all the other trains were stuck behind that lumbering G Hippo.
"G-Northbound runs local IN SERVICE between Smith-9 Sts and 179th St Jamaica.
Southbound runs light (no passengers) between 179th St and Continental Av. G enters service at Ctl.Av and runs local to Smith-9 Sts. OPTO
suspended during this operation.
R-Normal service
V-Operates IN SERVICE in both directions between 57 St/7 Av via 63rd Street and runs local to Continental Av. Trains will have "S" signs.
You've been warned!"
HUH! THE G TO 179th STREET? DO THEY REALLY THINK THAT'S GOING TO WORK - SENDING ONE TRAIN TO 179th STREET WHILE CUT SHORT THE MORE IMPORTANT LINES (R/V)? HMMMMMMMMMMMM.
Like I said before, the G should go to 71st Street and the R and V to 179th Street. This will minimize the delays of these two important lines (R/V).
N Broadway Line
I drove to Philadelphia today to tour a small portion of the city and while I was there I rode the Market St. line from the 5th Street station to the 69th Street station. The new Adtranz cars that they run on the Market Street are terrific. They have mostly cross seating, the seats are padded, the cars are quiet, they are fast, and best of all they have a railfan window where you sit in front of it in the manner of the BMT "Bluebirds". Another novel feature that they have is that of a synthesized female voice that announces what station you are at and what the next station will be. It also announces when the doors are opening and when the doors are closing. No door chimes are used. The cars were also very clean. There was almost no scratchitti. The cars are arranged in married pairs. These cars replaced older model stainless steel cars that were in use since about 1961 to my best guess. At the time I rode the old cars in 1996 they were still in good clean condition. They were also equppied with door controls similar to the ones in the BMT "Standards".
There is also a variety of surface transit vehicles in Philadelphia. There are trolleys when use a modern style of vehicle and they can run MU. There are double ended light rail vehicles. They also have trolley buses which run on rubber tires in addition to the regular diesel powered buses. I think that from the information that I have there are still some PCC type trolley cars running in Philadelphia.
If New York City wanted to have a transit system that they could brag about they should try to model it after Philadelphia's that include some trolleys and/or LRVs. They can also try to build quiet and comfortable subway cars. They could also try to bring back some speed at the same time.
BMTJeff
there are still some PCC type trolley cars running in Philadelphia.
Not in regular service, but there are PCC's in reserve for fantrips and the Holiday Trolley in Center City during the Xmas season.
There are stories going around that SEPTA is going to rebuild 18 PCC's with low center doors for ADA, A/C and solid state PCC controls for use on the Girard Avenue Light Rail line (Former streetcar route 15).
Wait and see on the latter. Considering SEPTA's attitude towards surface streetcar operation, it's even-up if it does happen.
It will be interesting to see PCC cars that are ADA compliant.
BMTJeff
That's actually a "real women's voice" making the annoucements. She rode the trains on their pilot runs, and some SEPTA people told me she was a real "looker".
Spell checker ... spell checker ... make sure it's installed ...
your message:
Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Apr 14 06:35:07 2001, in response to I rode on SEPTA today., posted by BMTJeff on Fri Apr 13 22:42:11 2001.
That's actually a "real women's voice" making the annoucements. She rode the trains on their pilot runs, and some SEPTA
people told me she was a real "looker".
Moo.
I don't get it Selkirk. He should have said "real woman's voice", but otherwise I don't see it.
OK- Z-man. You caught my error with "women" - should have said "woman", and Selkirk caught my spelling of "announcement" , which I spelled as "annoucement". By the way, how do you get to the spellcheck
option on this screen?
Thanks, Hope I didn't make any errors on this one!
Chuck Greene
Ah, announcement was misspelled.
You got me on that one Selkrk.
Geez ... I missed the "annoucements" entirely ... I was busting your chops over "looker" instead of "hooker" ... trying to inject a giggle there.
Don't take life too seriously and beware of those who do! :)
I know you are only kidding. I really enjoy this board and I take
everything with a grain of salt. I really enjoy all the contributions
all you "transit professionals" inject to this board. It broadens my knowledge of subway systems which I love!
Chuck Greene
Watch out then, we're sure to corrupt your morals ... there's the secret order of the cab and nobody outside our fraternity is supposed to know how to cutout a door. You could get brain damage. :)
That voice sounds familiar. I'm betting that voice belongs to Hella Young (The New Jersey Lottery lady), but i could be wrong.
Now let's see if SEPTA can move 12 million people a day like NYCT does without having a strike!
How often does SEPTA haves strikes. It seems from what you are telling be they have them fairly often.
BMTJeff
Let's see. There is the threat of a strike about every 3 years when the contract expires. Luckily, this year and in 1992 the strikes were avoided.
"Luckily, this year and in 1992 the strikes were avoided."
1995 and 1998 were bad enough. The only great mitigating factor was the continuation of regional rail and suburban buses.
I was in Philly on business during the '95 strike, and I recall the juxtaposition of seeing out my hotel window large crowds of people walking to their offices and stores from the regional rail stations, and seeing on the television the little tinpot Napoleon of a union leader **gloating** how he had brought Center City (is that the right phrase?) to a standstill. (1) Yeah, right. Are you looking at the same city I am? (2) Paralyzing a city is not something one is supposed to consciously do, much less brag about like a strutting peacock.
And then have the balls to run for city council 3 months later. Good thing the boys from NY came down to kick him out and take over the local.
Center City is correct.
There is a very simple to problem of almost constant TWU234 strikes:
BINDING ARBITRATION. All it takes is for the Pennsylvania Legislature to pass a bill requiring a no-strike provision for the unions in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh in return for Binding Arbitration in a contract dispute. This was done in Baltimore after a series of paralizing strikes against BTC in 1964 and 1968. The (sometimes) price is that sometimes the arbitrator awards a figure higher than either the union or the authority wanted. But..the buses, subways and streetcars keep rolling and the riding public is not inconvienced.
I wonder what Mayor Guiliani would have done if the transit workers went on strike against the NYCTA. Hopefully he would not have gloated about it. I still remember the wildcat strike on the LIRR on May 26, 1995. It brought Long Island to a standstill and there was a backup on the LIE that was over 30 miles long. I still recall a couple of wildcat strikes on Metro-North some years back. I also remember the Metro-North strike of 1983 where there was no train service for at least six weeks. Commuters were fuming from what I gathered over that particular strike because it lasted so long. Westchester County had to run extra buses along Central Park Avenue so they could take Metro-North customers to the subway. They were also running extra express buses to Manhattan. It was a nightmare for commuters that time. I hope that Metro-North, the LIRR and the NYCTA never decide to go on strike at the same time. If it ever happens it will be worse than any SEPTA strike. Lastly I'm sure that many of you recall the 11 day strike against the NYCTA back in 1980. All of a sudden people discovered that they could ride their bicycles to Manhattan and many others donned running shoes and jogged to work. Thank god that there hasn't been a strike since then.
BMTJeff
Well, unfortunately, there aren't any PCCs still in service, yet they are used for holiday service, like last christmas for the holiday trolley, and the valentines day trolley. Plus, I love the new Adtranz trains, although many dislike them. I never really liked NY subway trains though, they seemed rather uncomfortable. I'd like to to see more of a variety of vehicles in NY. Same with DC, although I know will all of the hills and such it's not possible, or it's very hard to do so.
The Adtranz trains on the Market Street line are really nice. I wish that the NYCTA would have trains that are as quiet. Also the Adtranz trains are fast unlike the Amrail built R-68s and the Kawasaky built R-68As which are referred to as the "Hippos" which can abrely get out of their own way. I also like the variety of transit vehicles that Philadelphia has. I did take some pictures and I hope to post them on the web along with the field trip pictures that I took on the April Fools' Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred.
BMTJeff
I've seen car sitting in the Mattapan yard for a few months ago, and over the last few weeks I've occasionally seen it in revenue service during the rush hours. But of the three rebuilt cars, it definitely does not get as much time on the road as it should. In fact, I have found that I usually see #3265 on the road the most, with #3268 finishing behind a close second, and #3260 in only occasional use.
I realize that the rebuild program has a new manager, and some have expressed that has deteriorated the lastest rebuild. Any more info or other opinions on this would be gratefully appreciated! -Nick
I'm a good friend of the recently-retired manager (he's a fellow Seashoreite) so I'm biased!
Last June I rode on one the re-builts of that recently-retired manager, AND had the pleasure of a few brews with that same man and his Seashore friends, so I'm biased too.
Mr t__:^)
Months ago there was a thread about old theatres. I have some further information.
The Merrick was not an RKO theatre. It was part of the Skouras chain. It was located on the south side of Jamaica Ave at 163rd St. It was a large spacious theatre, but without the fancy ornamantation of theatres like the Valencia.
The passing el trains were audible in the theatre, but not noisy enough to be objectionable. The theatre must have been built using good soundproofing materials. The best way to get to the Merrick was to get off the el at the east end of the old 160th St station.
Not exactly as long ago as that, but I remember the Haven theatre between Forest Parkway and 80th St. here in Woodhaven. I attended the last movie shown there, which was "Star Trek III, the Search For Spock" in June 1984. I never heard passing el trains in the theatre, even the flatwheeled R16's.
I remember the Haven, although I don't think I ever saw a movie there. It was on the north side of Jamaica Ave, wasn't it? I didn't realize it was that far out. I somehow thought it was around 77th St.
You say you could not hear the trains passing. That seems hard to believe. I could hear the el trains in the Gem, which was on
Fulton St, halfway between Crescent & Hemlock. That put it half a block from the sharp Fulton-Crescent turn.
Nah, the theatre was closer to 80th St. Today, it's a department store.
I never did hear trains in the theatre. Perhaps the modern surround-sound the theatres used was more effective than the more primative audio systems of the times you describe. The A runs right by the Crossbay, but I can't ever hear a train when I'm there seeing a flick.
It must have been the sound system because you sure could hear the trains back in the 1940's & 1950's. The Haven, the Gem & the Earl were all great neighborhood theatres. I was partial to the Gem because I lived right around the corner from it.
I passed right by the Crossbay many times in the 1960's & 1970's on cartrips home to visit family, but never saw a show there. From the outside it looked like it was a much larger theatre than the Haven.
The Crossbay was indedd a large theater, went to it a few times. For the Haven I think it was on the South side of Jamaica Ave. I must be lost somewhere, the Gem must have been gone before I lived in the area but I remember the Embassy on Fulton, or what had been the Embassy. Seeing the name Skouras for the Merrick theater reminds me my beloved Ogden theater in Highbridge had been a Skouras theater once...was that the same Skouras family of 20th Century Fox?
For rail related matters I remember train rumbles best at the Earl theater near the Yankee stadium. The rumbles of the D train [R1-9 then] underneath and rumble and some traction motor sounds from Low-V's that got thru the brick walls as they Low-V's thundered by on the Jerome el.With 2 busy lines crossing there you could feel trains most of the time.
Ed, you walked past the Gem's location hundreds of times on the way to or from the el when you lived there. The Gem was located on the north side of Fulton St between Crescent & Hemlock. The Hamburg Savings Bank bought the theatre in 1955, closed it and demolished it. The bank was renovated, and doubled in size to the east. A circular driveway with a drivein banking window was established approximately in the seating area of the old theatre. The drivein window was just not used by customers, and bank officials thought of it as wasted space.
I haven't been in the area in many years, but I'll bet that if the empty space is still there, it would probably be a employee parking lot for the bank. I have heard that the bank is now the Greenpoint Bank.
Guess that explains it all...first time I rode the Jamaica el was July l955 and didn't notice many landmarks then, and I moved to the area in October l968. Walked down Fulton from Crescent station and back in March last year, remember there was no longer a Hamburg bank, guess you're right it is now Greenpoint but I can't remember. The neighborhood is as well kept as when I lived there, BTW.
I never knew that bank was a movie theatre. I'd bet anything that patrons heard screeching trains as the moved around the curve here.
Chris, The bank was never a movie theatre. The bank was built on the corner about 1936. Going east there was the original bank, two small stores, the Gem movie theatre, and then three more small stores before you got to Hemlock St. The bank bought the two stores and the movie theatre and tore them down in 1955. Using the space of the two stores and the theatre, the bank doubled their street frontage, and then paved the rest of the space for a drivein teller's window. The final three stores at the end of the block were still there when they were done.
The original bank had very high ceilings. A teller could turn away from his window, look out the tall windows and see gate cars or Standards coming around that turn into Crescent St. This was before the trackside walkways were added to the outside of the curve. Standards especially made quite an impression to anyone in the bank as they hung way out over the curve. The 1955 renovations eliminated the tall windows which were replaced with a second floor used for office space.
I worked in that bank for three years, and was one of the tellers who saw this awesome view of the BMT.
>>> A teller could turn away from his window, look out the tall windows and see gate cars or Standards coming around that turn into Crescent St. <<<
They should have made you pay them for letting you work there! :-)
Tom
Pay them! I wouldn't have been able to afford it. I think my pay was only 85 cents an hour at the time.
Working in banking did not pay well in those days!
Looks like you had an awesome view of the Jamaica Ave. line when it was ruled by the standards, before the new R16's showed up!
It was a great view. I just wish I had an camera in those days. I would have some great pictures to support my memories!
>>> You say you could not hear the trains passing. That seems hard to believe. I could hear the el trains in the Gem <<<
I am surprised that you could hear the El in any decent movie theater. All of the theaters were built or renovated for sound after the Els were in place. It seems logical that the theater owner would take into account the noise of the El when soundproofing the auditorium.
I know I used to attend a movie at least once a week on Third Avenue and was never aware of any sound from the El once in the theater, and sometimes went with my grandmother to see vaudeville along with a movie on Jamaica Avenue under that El, without ever hearing the El inside the theater auditorium.
Tom
I agree! There were some theatres where I could never hear the el. The Valencia in Jamaica was one (although the el's last stop was right outside). In others you were barely aware that a train was passing. In a few, the passing of a train was just downright annoying.
It might have something to do with the fact that if you were a transit fan watching a movie, and also listening for passing trains at the same time.
I don't believe that a transit fan could watch a movie at the Embassy Theatre at Fulton and Richmond, and still not count the number of passing trains.
In the 60's there were two theatres located on both sides of the Myrtle Ave el at Myrtle and Wycoff St,one was on the inside curve as the el makes it's turn onto the Myrtle and Wycoff station i don't remember the name of it but it had some nice interior carvings and such,the building i think is still there,the other one is located a block or two on Myrtle Ave,it was i beleive the Masbeth theare,it had some real nice fancy ornamantion inside as well as on the outside,also had a rich red carpet throughout even the balcony had mirriors and real nice seating,i think that building is still there too.another theatre though not near any el was the oasis which was on Fresh Pond Rd almost to Metropolitan Ave on the right i doubt that that building is there.
Yes, the Oasis has been torn down (it closed in the 1970's and was a roller skating rink for several years after that) - there's a CVS drug store there now.
The one under the El at Myrtle/Wyckoff was the Parthenon, which I believe closed around 1960, or perhaps earlier. The other one, on Myrtle a half-bock east was the RKO Madison, which closed around 1975. A block further east is the Ridgewood, which is still open (a 5-plex I think).
Going east along Myrtle was the Glenwood (at Decatur St.) which closed in the early 1960's, then became the Glenwood Bowl for about 30 years, was razed, and the site is now the Ridgewood Post Office.
At Cypress Hills St. in Glendale was the Belvedere which closed in the 1950's and was a furniture store for many years. I think it's a church now - I'll check it out tomorrow when I go back "home" to Ridgewood for Easter dinner.
Still further east was the Acme, at about 68th St., which became the Victorian House Caterers for many years and is now a Social Security Administration building
Hey Bob,in the 60's i was there at the Madison when the three stooges was there in person to promote the movie the three stooges meet the martains,we were in the third row center and what a mad house that was,the stooges put on there routeens for about half an hour then left it was great,my friends and i used to get thrown out of the oasis for throwing popcorn at the girls after the Saturday serials was over by the fat matrons(i think they only hired fat women for that job as they were in all theatres) who all wore white,we were thrown out at the front door and ran to the side door and banged on it as the other kids would open the door and we would be right back in....ahhhh the good old days,when leaving the Myrtle Ave station on the el heading to Metropolitan Ave a few blocks down there is a large white building with a bunch of athletic reliefs along the top of the building i think it has the name Ridgewood Grove on it,is that still there ? as my family had several dinners there honoring athletic stars,also is the old trolley conductors building still standing ? as in Salaams video shows a new bunch of buildings near the throat to the Fresh Pond yard...its a old concrete building....thanks
>>> the fat matrons(i think they only hired fat women for that job as they were in all theatres) who all wore white <<<
I certainly remember them. They were on duty during the daytime only, and after a certain hour (4:00 P.M. ??) a child could not enter a theater without an adult. When I was under age, and got to the theater just after the kiddie curfew, I would beg any adult approaching the box office to take me in with him.
I also remember one time when I was 13 or 14, and I went to the Kieths Flushing theater on a Saturday afternoon and paid extra to get a loge seat so I would be far away from the screaming kids. The area where I was sitting was almost deserted and I was sitting there only a few minutes when an usher came up to me. I showed him my ticket since I thought it was simply a POP check for the premium seat. The usher asked me how old I was, and when I told him my age he told me that everyone under a certain age (maybe 16 ??) was required by law to sit in the children's section (under the supervision of the matron). I got a refund and left rather than sit among the screaming brats.
Tom
There was also an RKO Keiths in Richmond Hill on Hillside Ave., next to Jahn's Ice Cream Parlor . It's been a Bingo Hall for many years.
In Astoria on Broadway next to the El station there was a movie house whose name I cannot remember, but my mother used to treat me and my brother in the early 50's by taking us there instead of the Beacon in my native Long Island City. The Saturday serials were the same but four weeks ahead so I'd go back to LIC and "predict" to my friends what would happen. They never caught on and it made me look smart. It's amazing what we'd do to win approval from our peers back then. After I moved to California it took two years or so but from then on I didn't give a hoot in hell what my peers thought about anything. I did what I felt like doing. It didn't make me a whole slew of friends but the six or seven I made were like brothers to me because there was a mutual respect. Now if someone can tell me the name of that movie house I would appreciate it. Oh yes, there was an ice cream parlor close by and it was called Jacoby's.
I too saw the Three Stooges at the Madison. Who knows, perhaps we bumped into each other! I also saw Annette Funicello - I think at the Ridgewood.
I'm not sure if the Ridgwood Grove is still there. I did see a few WWF wrestling shows there in the 1980's
A real special treat, and it didn't happen all that often, would be when my dad would take my to a first run movie in Manhattan. There were a lot of great movie houses there like Radio City Music Hall, the Criterion, the Warner Bros. Strand, the New York Paramount, the Astor, etc, well you get the picture. When we lived in Queens (I was too young to remember living in Brooklyn) to go to Manhattan was to go to New York. That's how we looked at it. After the show we would go eat at Romeo's. It served nice Italian food at a very moderate price which was good because we were lower middle class. It was a fund time.
My dad would take me to Manhattan and we took the Lexingtion express to times sq and go to the opening of some movies two i remember was the 3-d creature from the black lagoon which had an actor in creature costume walking around outside and then inside the theatre durring the movie the 3-d was good as some kids attempted to hit the bubbles from the film,and then the north to alaska where John Wayne appeard in the theatre,he did'nt give autographs though,they had a dog sled team outside for people to see,we took the lex express back downtown as we both loved the low-v's.
I think I might have been in one of them once. In the mid 1950's I took the B-13 bus to the end of the line which back then was Wyckoff & Gates.
I remember walking west on Myrtle under the el to the theatre which was on the south side of the street. I went over there to see the 1953 version ofTitanic,but got there at the wrong time, and had to sit through a complete showing of I'll Cry Tomorrow.
I filled the time by trying to identify the trains going by outside by sound, as to whether they were gate cars or Standards. The theatre was very small and the trains sounded like they were running through the lobby.
I never saw another show at the theatre, and cannot remember its name, but it sure was a small theatre.
Old Movie Houses Next To The West End El:
1) Loew's 46th Street, at New Utrecht/46 St.
2) The Boro Park, at 51 St./New Utrecht Avenue
3) Loew's Oriental, at 86 St./New Utrecht Avenue
4) Benson, at 20th Av./86th Street
Movies under the #7 line :
1 - Earle Theatre - 74th Street
2 - Drake (?) - 62nd Street
3 - Sunnyside - 52nd Street (which is in Woodside) closed about 1966 now a Foodtown (formerly and A&P)
4 - Center Theatre - 43rd St. Still there but now a 4-plex. Since traffic runs outside of the el - this may be scratched from the list.
Honorable mention - Sunnyside Gardens Arena - 45th Street. Not a movie house but a large indoor gathering spot.
The Goodman Theatre in Chicago just moved this year into a new facility located in the Loop area, with both elevated trains just outside the building and a subway underneath.
The soundproofing is excellent -- you can't hear trains going by in either of the two theater auditoriums in the building.
Special construction designs with the auditoriums actually floating within the building were used to accomplish the soundproofing.
Of course, in their old location, next to the Metra Electric (formerly Illinois Central) commuter rail tracks was well soundproofed also, never heard trains in their old facility, either.
-- Ed Sachs
What was the name of the theatre that is now occupied by a Rubinstein & Klein furniture store along the West End Line in the vicinity of 55th St (I think)?
Two others I can think of was a theatre on the corner of 86th St & New Utrecht Ave (name escapes me at the moment) and Oceana on brighton Beach Ave & Brighton 11th St. Never head trains at the Oceana.
--Mark
The 86th and New Utrecht theater was maybe called the Oriental, I think.
And I'm told the theater on 55th street may have been the Boro Park.
The test run of E/F/G/R/V service was held this morning. The service pattern was as follows:
E, F, R: Normal
G: Queens Blvd local to 179th
V: Simulated by "S" shuttle between Continental and 57th/7th via Queens Blvd local and 63rd Street.
From my limited observation of it, I'm really not convinced of the viability of running three local services.
As anyone who knows the Queens Boulevard line would expect, the main problem was on the northbound local track approaching Continental. With two out of three services terminating there, the line was backed up at least to 63rd Drive (where I got on) due to "holdouts," despite the presence of at least eight platform conductors to clear the trains. My shuttle train couldn't go much faster than "key-by" speed. PLUS, every G was delayed twice: once by the R and S/V discharging at Continental, and again by the E and F switching at 75th Avenue. (To remedy that, some E's ran through on the express track.)
Of course, the test would have been even more interesting with the F via 63rd Street and the shuttle via 53rd (a la the eventual V).
Again, I'm not sure of how successful the test was (or could have been), but I agree that it had to be done to settle the issue.
Those 8 platform conductors would not be there in reality under normal conditions. That is a lot of salary. And to have 8 there at the same time, someone would always be out to lunch, comfort break, jobs not covered because they are always short of c/r's and they would rather put the c/r on the road, they would not pay time-and-a-half to bring a platfrom c/r in on his RDO.
Seemed smooth enough when I rode the S from Roosevelt to 57-7th. Most people didn't think the train was going anywhere so the car was practically empty, and it smelled like a Radio Shack. Yeah R46's have this electronics smell sometimes.
Only problem was some delays before 36th.
There was a 6 car train of R68's, One four cards unit and two from the Franklyn Ave Shuttle. I pulled up next to at Queens Blvd. The TA put paper signs over the "S" and they left the rest of the sign uncovered. It was weard to see an R68 with a Green "G" sign on it. The C/R was were a nomal R46 "G" train one would be.
The biggest mest was after the GO was over. They had to layup all the trains that they did not need any more. This backup Queens Blvd. back to Rollavelt Ave.
Robert
I missed the last (S) train out of 71st and Continental by 3 minutes. However I noticed a returning (S) made up of R-46s. I rode the (F) thru the 63rd St tunnel and noticed another set of R-46s on the east bound track at 21st St/Queensbridge with the lights out. The last car was signed up (V)!
The (G) was making local stops to 179th but was dead heading towards 71st/Continental.
I rode the Franklin Shuttle today and noticed only one two car set of R-68s running. But I also noticed a four car set of R-40 SLANTS on the lay-up track south of Prospect Park. all cars were correctly signed up for shuttle service. Question is, did they see service ?
Bill "Newkirk"
"But I also noticed a four car set of R-40 SLANTS on the lay-up track south of Prospect Park. all cars were correctly signed up for shuttle service. Question is, did they see service ?"
I saw these too, they were the same set. They were there as early as 9AM and were there as late as midnight coming home on Saturday. I doubt they saw service. They were probably there in case something happened. I thought this might be plans for the future, but you have to figure, which is better a train of R68s on the G or all R46s on the G and the Franklin Shuttle the way it is now?
They probably did it because you'd need a lot more 6 car trains than currently possible to sustain G service to 179th.
That shows you how stupid it was to drawbar all those cars into 4 car sets.
"That shows you how stupid it was to drawbar all those cars into 4 car sets."
That was a trade-off vs. the higher cost of single cars. MTA could have made a different decision, but it would have meant diverting money from another capital item, something somebody else would be complaining about now.
With the new R142's the "B" cars have only two traction motors per car instead of four, according to Bombardier. That makes them less expensive. If the cars were $2 million apiece instead of $1.5 million, but had four traction motors, would you spend the extra money?
I'm not saying the decision made was automatically right. I am questioning the tone of your response - would you have examined and understood the whole picture before making a decision like that?
It would not have meant diverting money from another capital item because leaving them as single units was not a capital expense, and only a minor maintenance expense at that. The analogy to the R142 is invalid because the R68 was built as a single unit car to begin with and they are still blind motors. What did it cost them to drawbar them and strip the cabs ? Now they have huge inventories of couplers and control stands, what did that buy them ?
They could have put 'em in pairs, at least some of them, so that 6 car trains would still be possible.
Hindsight is always 20-20. The ancient ones were correct, as usual.
"They probably did it because you'd need a lot more 6 car trains than currently possible to sustain G service to 179th."
So why did they need R-68s? Did they run an R68 on the G during the testing period?
Yes.
Yes. The G ran the R68's. I saw them yesterday while I was on the R46 F train at Queens Plaza. I would be guessing the R68's are starting to run the G Train and sending them to Kew Gardens Yard for G Service.
G R68#2801
No. The G will operate out of Coney Island. Jamacia will operate the E, F, R, and V.
That was assuming Court Square as a northern terminus. Now all bets are off. They can just as well send C.I. R32's up to Queens to cover some F or V consists and leave the R68's intended for the G on the N.
No way that yard can handle all those lines. Those G's are coming from the C.I. yard from the Culver line.
Relly. Have the F out of Coney Island and G out of Kew Gardens. How about that?
"Have the F out of Coney Island and G out of Kew Gardens. How about that?"
That's probably one of the best ideas that nobody thought of. I would have nothing against that, but maybe one possible nitpick: Jamaica should not get any R-68s, leave them to their R46s and few R32s. Meanwhile, Coney Island with R-46s? Would this be the Ave X yard or would this actually be Coney Island yard?
I believe some R46s are stuck somewhere in that complex.
What difference does it make - 27 local trains-per-hour spread over 2 routes or 3, and one is 6 trains-per-hour of 4 car trains.
They handled more cars than that back in the days when:
- the cars were 60',
- there were twice as many GG's as G's,
- the GG's were 8 cars,
- the E had much larger equipment requirements to cover service to the Rockaways than the F does today to C.I.,
- and either the E or F was 11 cars.
Hippo's on Queens Blvd. Geesh.
Hippos on Queens Blvd. Geesh. All the trains were delayed because of the Hippo.
Why not use these cars on the Staten Island R.T.,and place the R44s on T.A. routes. The M1 could be rebuilt just for S.I.,and from the looks of it, they would fit right it. Now before some of you SI folks have fits,I MYSELF am a former resident[west brighton,new dorp]and use to ride daily. with a little rebuilding ,the trains would make riding more bearable and enjoyable. thoughts and comments are welcome.
I think the M-1's would accelerate too slowly, espically on just 600-650 volts, whereas they now are on 750volts, to mainatin current running times.
I would send 96 PA1-2 cars out there instead with threshold plates.
I think the M-1's would accelerate too slowly, espically on just 600-650 volts
There's an obvious solution there.
That's an interesting idea and one thatlikely should be considered. There would be technical problems to be sure but nothing that would be insoluable.
Ah, the concept of 85 MPH Tottenville Expresses, first stop Great Kills.
Love it.
Yeah!
Well the voltages are different but if ASC or cab signalling were installed on SIR that would be good. Of course the seating arrangment is much different, but the seats could be replaced with transit style seating for more standing room.
Yeah I could picture M-1's plying the SIR, with it's railroad style track.
This has been discussed here months ago and I'll still argue the point of sending any M-1's over to SIRwy.
A friend of mine, a 27 year engineer of the LIRR who has connections inside the LIRR tells me the following. The M-1s looks are deceiving because of no rust, but underneath they are SHOT ! If they were worthy of rebuilding, the LIRR would overhaul them. That's not to say they are dangerous, just plain had it. That's why the LIRR is going the way of the M-7s and rebuilding the M-3s.
Now why would Staten Island Railway want overhaul and use hand me downs that the LIRR doesn't want anymore ? I don't know how good or bad Metro North's M1As are, but they want to replace them too. If Staten Island Railway wants equipment so the 64 R-44/MUE-2s can be sent to NYCT, they'd be better of with a new fleet. The R-44s are 30 years old. That's five years closer to the magic number 35.
Bill "Newkirk"
From what I've heard, the trucks are trashed on the M-1s (they're a crap design). The rest of the gear is probbably old too. But I've noticed a few static inverters replaceing MA sets on a few.
As far as the bodies, stainless doen't rust, but I'm not sure if fatigue gets them as bad as other metals, or regular steel. No sense in saving them if they're starting to crack.
The trucks are the same exact ones as are under the Comet/Shoreliner cars, and they can be replaced.
35 years of age is not a magic number. They're shot because of 30 years of shitty maintenance, not age. Their steel predecessors lasted 43 - 60 years. The MNRR ones got a GOH in Hornell and is not as desperate to get rid of them. They'll probably get rid of the 80 Budd ones, not the 98 GE's. The LIRR did intend to overhaul 130 of the 152 "better" (their words) M-1's of GE vintage to last 50 years, and plans to GOH the M-3'S to last 50 years. I don't know if that is still the case.
SIR is a Railroad. They should have railroad cars. Wether they be M-1s, ACMU-1100s, Arrow IIIs, or their own fleet. At least it is currently treated like a RR, ie: trains don't slow down while passing stations, train numbers in the schedule with every train shown, unlocked storm doors, flag stops, no brake tripping, etc.
If not the whole fleet, the express trains should be replaced with commuter rail cars, though for the AM rush ones it'd be hard to figure out what to call express.
Maybe a few extra cars could be tacked onto the M-7 order for SIR? That would be the ultimate RR car replacement order, three systems getting the same exact equipment! Although SIR would probably need single cars, most platforms are exactly 375' long.
Even the original l925 cars were essentially subway cars, although just in my own opinion I consider the subway a railroad if not in the legal sense. Even the original name was Staten Island Rapid Transit, although the B&O RR owned it. My feeling is the present equipment is just fine for the service, but not something with all long seats like the R40 for example. But that's just my humble opinion. By the way when CTA trains ran skip stops they never slowed for stations they paseed...that was fun.
Didn't the SIRT cars have reversible seats? At least that's what I can tell from the interior shots somewhere on this site. I never knew any RT car to have reversible seats.
Yes, they did; other rapid transit cars having reversible seats included the Brooklyn el 1000-1119 series[Hard wood] and the l300's; Chicago:most of the 4000 types except for the earliest group and some series of wood cars as well. I'm sure there were other examples.
If we wanted to ride the rapid transit / railroad fence there's always PATH. Just before I "retired" out of Laurel MT yard there was a notice that PATH was looking for engineers [not motormen, even if the job descriptions would be virtually identical].
I guess my favorite illustration on the matter is South Brooklyn is a Railroad but the NYC "subway" isn't....?????
But that's the story. Much like reading King James, Douay, or Modern versions of the Bible. The purpose and methods almost but not quite the same.
I'm going to Baltimore for a week on business. Any suggestions on things to see? What's at the B&O Museum? And I think there's a streetcar museum too? Thanks in advance.
Baltimore is my current hometown and unfortunately (outside of the B&0 Railroad Museum), there isn't much to see. The light rail is somewhat interesting (especially where it curves into Penn Station) and you can see some old trolley tracks at the Inner Harbor behind the Maryland Science Center. The Streetcar Museum is only open on weekends but I'm unsure as to whether or not it is open yet. To find out, post a message for fellow Subtalker Dan Lawrence. He also lives here and could probably give you a better idea of what to see than I can.
Eric Dale Smith
Eric,
The tracks behind the Maryland Science Center are not stretcar tracks, but former B&O industrial trackage that fed businesses on Light Street.
BSM is open Every Sunday from Noon to 5:00 PM. From the first Saturday on June to the last Saturday in October we are open the same hours.
Check out our website: Baltimore Streetcar Museum It should give you all the information about BSM that you need.
Ooops! My bag!!
E_DOG
As Eric has posted, Baltimore doesn't have much in the line of transit interest outside of the B&O Museum and the streetcar museum. Dan Lawrence has been involved with the Baltimore Streetcar Museum since time immemorial, but they're normally only open on Sunday afternoon since they're an all-volunteer operation. (Jr. and I were there again two weeks ago - great place, even if the ride is quite short, but they do try to operate several cars so you have several excuses to ride again - and it's one fare for all the rides you want.) The light rail line is an interesting ride and the subway system is quite a contrast to New York's - one line, closed on Sunday. If you can stretch the trip see it all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where do they come up with the names for sheds? I was riding the Amtrak along the Northeast corridor, and found sheds witht eh names Bacon and Bass? What is up with this, they are so wierd, lol
Those are NOT the names of the sheds. Those are interlocking names. BACON (MP 51.0) is named after the nearby Bacon Hill. I can't find BASS on my 1992 diagrams, but it is probably named after a nearby river. Could you have mistaken BASS for BUSH (MP 71.6)?
Well, I'm not entirely sure about Bass, maybe it is bush or something. I think it was near Philadelphia on the Northeast Corridor, or much further south, hehe.
Well I took the opportunity to check out Queens Blvd this morning with the testing.
When I got to Roosevelt avenue for Manhattan an F was just pulling out on the express track. But a minute later an orange S train pulled up on the local, an R46.
Hardly anyone was on the train, and people on the platform looked confused. Most of those stupid people did not board the train!
The side signs didn't display S, just 57-7th ave.
Things went smoothly but we were held at Steinway due to a red signal for a few minutes. You could see trains running every 2 to 3 minutes with the 3 services. The G should definately remain on Queens Blvd since trains on the local line don't run often enough anyway.
After 36th we went through 63rd street tunnel. I was confused because I saw a Queens-bound R and F going through as well. This was around 11am, I thought F's ran through 53rd during testing. The R must have been rerouted. I also saw two orange S trains Queensbound right after
one another. All the S were R46, I have a feeling the V will be too.
At 57th and 7th we crossed over to the N/B express track. I got off and got a S/B N train after crossing over. We had an R32, but yet another strange thing happened, an out of service S train (R46) running on the S/B express was let ahead at 34th, so we had to wait.
Exactly where that R46 was bound for I don't know, perhaps laying up at City Hall.
The T/O's seemed more careful around the whole City Hall area on both N/B and S/B trains I rode. There were no markers anymore as to where the derailment happened.
I thought the G.O. stated R replaced E this weekend, but E's were running in both directions though 53rd street. After getting a Cinnabon I headed down for a Manhattan bound E.
At 7th a B pulled in just as we pulled in. So I thought I'd race the E. I got on the B for a slow Hippo ride. There was track work in the dash so it was not as fast. I guess they are getting it ready for train storage and turnarounds. :-(
Got off at W4th and ran up the stairs, and the same E pulled in less than a minute. Yeah some 6th ave express! The front car # was the same so I was sure.
Busy day in the city today, with lots of confused tourists, I actually wound up having to push a few out of the way, they were blocking the turnstyles at Cortlandt St on the N/R. Apparently these stupid tourists have no concept that people move quickly in NYC.
Lots of mystical girls in both Flushing and Chinatown today left me with a big spell. And one last thing I saw a work train pulling out of the tunnel near Main st on the 7 with two R62's (no windows) one of them said EP103
"And one last thing I saw a work train pulling out of the tunnel near Main st on the 7 with two R62's (no windows) one of them said EP103"
That R-62 without the windows should be an R-127. A garbage motor if you will. Check out the roof vents, that's for the axiflow fans !!
Bill "Newkirk"
"When I got to Roosevelt avenue for Manhattan an F was just pulling out on the express track. But a minute later an orange S train pulled up on the local, an R46. Hardly anyone was on the train, and people on the platform looked confused. Most of those stupid people did not board the train! The side signs didn't display S, just 57-7th ave."
And what was it about these people that made them stupid?
Right, they may have wanted destinations other than 57th/7th and Queensbridge. Unless they were stupid in that it was a local train on the local track and they were waiting for a local train on the local track and still didn't board.
They were waiting on the local track, most likely for an R. If they wanted Broadway they could've stayed on and changed at 57&7. Most people never read the G.O.'s posted everywhere, and as a result they aren't aware of the changes.
"They were waiting on the local track, most likely for an R. If they wanted Broadway they could've stayed on and changed at 57&7. Most people never read the G.O.'s posted everywhere, and as a result they aren't aware of the changes"
... so wanting a one seat ride makes them stupid?
Mystical - is that like the word of the week or something? ;-)
Anyway, I took a little excursion myself, a pretty long one as this was my last free day of spring break (Easter Sunday is spent with family, without exception).
Newark Subway was actually running this weekend, so I took the #92 bus, the subway, and the PATH to WTC.
Then I debated over whether I should take a trip on the SI Ferry and do a bus trip through Staten Island into Brooklyn, or take the A train to the Rockaways.
I went for the Rockaways. Got on the A train (R44) and rode, and rode, and rode.
I had originally planned on changing to the shuttle at Broad Channel, so I got off there and waited, and waited. 10 minutes later another A pulls in (R38) so I said screw the shuttle, and just got on the A. Got off at Far Rockaway and after consulting the Queens bus map, decided to get the Green Lines Q22 to ride to the other end of Rockaway Island, peninsula, or whatever it is. However, while waiting at the bus stop, a LI Bus N33 pulls up (Orion #145). I felt quite drawn to it for some reason, and seeing that it went to Long Beach, I asked the driver how long it took, and he said about 30 minutes. So I boarded that, now planning to take the LIRR back (more about LI Bus trip on BusTalk).
I got the 1:06 PM train out of Long Beach to Penn Station, then the 2:32 NJT Trenton Local back to Newark, then the subway and bus back home.
Altogether, the trip was about 6 hours long.
Not bad.
Sounds nice. That Rockaway Park shuttle seems to run once in a blue moon, so Q53 from central Queens is a better bet. Also I think there may be a shuttle G.O. this weekend. How was the N33 ride? I hear it's a pretty good route. Bus 145, that is one of those loud Cummins I think.
How was the LIRR ride back? Was the front window available?
That work train I was had car EP013.
When I got off the 7 at Main st today I noticed G.O. posters for the next two weekends, as well as one in May.
There will be no 7 service between Main St and Willets point. Shuttle buses will run between Main street and Willets point, where 7 trains to/from Manhattan area available. Can anyone say CHAOS?
I'll probably just walk over there, the shuttle buses are gonna be a mess. You know how many people use the Main street station? (shiver)
Why not have the LIRR provide shuttle train service? I know they did it a while back from Long Island City to Woodside (or something to that effect). It wouldn't be too hard to have a train run from one of the Shea Stadium platforms to Main st and back, given the hourly headways of the Pt Wash on weekends.
LIRR never seems to come to the rescue of subway riders, but, subways have always come to the rescue of LIRR riders. I guess MTA thinks yuppie suburbanites are more important than straphangers. :-(
Wouldn't the combined walk from Willets Point to the Shea Stadium LIRR and then the walk back from Flushing LIRR to the Main Street IRT be just about as long as walking between the two subway stations?
And suppose it rained. That happens in April, you know.
Yeah, either way it's gonna be a major inconvenience.
Wasn't the LIRR planning on running special reduced-fare trains within city limits if the strike were to go through?
Yeah, maybe I forgot about that.
"LIRR never seems to come to the rescue of subway riders, but, subways have always come to the rescue of LIRR riders. I guess MTA thinks yuppie suburbanites are more important than straphangers. :-( "
It's not the job of the LIRR to come to the aid of the subway rider, but NYCT to ask the LIRR for assistance. The two agencies need to communicate and not expect instant help.
Besides, this is not like the "Fisk Interlocking" project some 10 years ago when the #7 was out from Main St. to Woodside.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well.
I think Articulateds will do the Shuttle service. Or the MCI buses.
Definitely not with Stengel Depot a spitting distance away. Why import buses and drivers from Staten Island, Brooklyn, the Bronx, or Manhattan? I doubt an RTS will even be seen!
They'll probably dig out the lesser used Orions for shuttle bus service. Willets point is no more than 10 minutes away by foot, so it probably better by walking. There's gonna be a serious jam up of buses all along Main&Roosevelt. During this time I think cars should be banned from the area or there is gonna be some serious gridlock.
The MTA is the mothership of the NYCTA, LIRR,& MetroNorth, and with the different rates of pay it is cheaper to run shuttle buses then have the LIRR supply shuttle trains.
Remember the MTA is a state and federal subsidized agency that can make a profit for supplying a "neccesary commuter service". Hence the reason for lots of G.O.'s (more funding) and inadequet(sp) service options (less payout to the employees) equals higher profits.
I assume that NYCT did some homework and the Mets will not be playing.
The first thing they can do is to extend all the buses that terminate in Flushing to extend the route to Willets Point. That will potentially limit the chaos in Flushing to those that arrive on foot. Those arriving by bus will not add to the chaos. Those arriving by car can use the Shea Stadium lots.
They can also set up adequate bus stops in the Parking lot.
There are a few buses that run through Flushing: Q25; Q34; Q65; Q20A/B and Q44. These buses can detoured via Roosevelt and Northern to provide direct Willets Point service.
I would also assume that the TA has thought out the ramifactions that Main St is ADA comliant and Willets Pt is not. I'd assume that at the very least they would provide an express shuttle between 61st-Woodside and Willets Pt or have vouchers for taxi fares for these patrons.
The pavement on the Roosevelt Ave Bridge could stand some work before and definitely after all this additional traffic.
I'm sure the merchants will appreciate the lost business.
Willets PT is somewhat ADA compliant, even though it's not indicated on the map. One could roll in from the park's ramp, through the fare control, and use the ramps to get to the Manhattan bound platform. To get to the Main st side one could roll up the ramp, have them unlock the gates, and enter the side platform. The only track inaccessible is the center one.
That park ramp entrance is not accessible from the parking lot without climbing stairs. The LIRR, among other things, is in the way. I don't think the Parks Dept would permit the TA to run their buses through the park to get to the entrance.
There was a scene with Tom Berenger that exits a station on the Flushing line & the trains were GOH R33/36 Redbirds the cars were R36ML #9535 NOTE: still had the side drop-down sash windows, R36WF #9408-09, R33WF #9324, R36WF #9347 the interior doors were in orange! Why?
According to my "Passenger Car Data" book, (page 52), all interior doors from R-10 through R-40 (Non-AC) were delivered in dark blue. Quite often, when preparing trains for movies, the film company requests that unusual modifications to the cars' appearance be made. In one such instance we had to do the seats of an R-46 with green contact paper and install 'pink' tinted fluorescent bulbs. The orange doors were likely requested by the movie company.
No, the interior doors on MANY of the subway cars were a "orange" color in the days when that film was made.....actually more of a salmon color. They weren't done that way special for the filming.
any graffitti ??
NO??? I said they were GOH in redbirds because that was the first line to be graffiti free right?
At the end of the movie, "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3" the producer thanks the City of NY for cooperation in the filming of the movie. The next 'credit' states that the New York City Transit Authority provided NO technical assistance in the making of the movie. Perhaps that accounts for some of the technical errors. However, the most blatant error was not a technical one and I don't ever recall it being discussed here. Any idea what it was (is)?
According to the blooper list on the IMDB, a conductor says that all IRT cars are 72 feet long. I'd say that qualifies as a pretty blatant one.
Blatant but somewhat technical. Not the one I was looking for.
Are you thinking about the nine foot wide cars at platforms built for ten footers?
NOPE - that was more or less techincal. This one is so obvious it's almost embarrassing.
Lemme take a guess....The Big Board @ Jay St actually WORKING??
hahahahaahhahahh. Nope it wasn't even a good replica of the Jay St. board. It also had nothing to do with the fact that Marino could distinguish a single-car move on the Grand Central Model-board.
The next 'credit' states that the New York City Transit Authority provided NO technical assistance in the making of the movie.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I could almost swear that Don Harold, then working public information for the TA, provided technically assistance for the original movie. I even seem to recall a picture of him with Walter Matthau.
As to an "error," it's probably not what you have in mind but it always seemed unrealistic to me that not a single passenger thinks to pull the emergency cord in the final sequence, nor is the train tripped by timed signals.
In the book, didn't the hijackers cut the emergency cord?
Now that I think of what wasn't shown in the movie - does anyone know if there are movie scenes or clips that were left out of the released version?
Were the trains in the movie shown going in the correct direction with respect to the platform?
NOPE - but it's not what I had in mind
Yes, in the novel, the hijackers cut both emergency brake cords.
The original movie did not faithfully portray the rigging of the car for the getaway. In the novel, Longman (Mr. Green) busts out the front cab window in order to fit the pipes together which are connected to the iron mold slipped over the controller. There was no external rigging. The remake, as awful as it is, does a much better job at portraying this accurately.
Nope !!! Nothing at all to do with emergency cords, emergency exits or emergency service unit. It also has nothing to do with the signals or the car numbers. I suspect that the same error was made in the book. In the event that nobody gets it, I'll post the answer tonight, from the nit-picker's convention - after my easter dinner.
HAPPY EASTER
I'll have to look for it. IIRC in the bok they cut the "cords" too.My thought was that the R22 cars were not regularly used in Pelham service, and after 58 or 59 I can't remember seeing one there. But guess when you said car numbers that ruled it out.
Yup - Not the car number or type of car. Nor is it the fact that the train standing at 28th & Lex had its lights on even after the power was off.
It has been a while since I've seen the movie, but wasn't there a line about "...green signals all the way to SOUTH FERRY"? Not the usual routing!
That one hit me too, but I figured that since it's a possible routing, I could overlook it. Besides, I wasn't here in the 1970s, and I wasn't sure whether at that time there was a routing for the Lex to SF by some service.
The 6 DID run to South Ferry up until 1977, but not during midday. There is a line in the novel in which someone points this out, and that the car would have to be switched at Brooklyn Bridge.
As for Ryder's (Mr. Blue's) insistence that all signals be green, he really meant he didn't want to see any red signals.
BTW: At the very beginning of the film we see the culprits entering a s subway staircase marked "NYC Transit System" in daylight.
The only hijacker actually seen entering the subway from the street at the beginning is Mr. Green, or Mr. Longman. The other three are waiting at their respective stations and are first seen when they board the train.
That one hit me too, but I figured that since it's a possible routing, I could overlook it. Besides, I wasn't here in the 1970s, and I wasn't sure whether at that time there may have beena a routing for the Lex to SF by some service.
The novel refers to single cars, or at least the first car of the train. I suppose they could have used an R-17 or even an R-15 if they wanted to, instead of an R-22.
Didn't they also use at least one shot in which an R-16 was masquerading as an R-17 (in a scene where Court Street was masquerading as 28th St.-Park Ave. South)?
There are no R-16s anywhere in the movie. You can see an R-17 as Longman reaches the platform at 59th St.; it's the last car of the train pulling out. I think there's an R-17 in the train where Bud Carmody is reviewing the steps a conductor takes while at a station.
If you look close at the train across the platform at "Grand Central" aka Court St., you'll see R-22 7339, which winds up as the lead motor of Pelham 1-2-3 as it enters 28th, er, Court St. Here's the real topper: 7339 is coupled to an R-10 at "Grand Central"!
There are no R-16s anywhere in the movie. You can see an R-17 as Longman reaches the platform at 59th St.; it's the last car of the train pulling out. I think there's an R-17 in the train where Bud Carmody is reviewing the steps a conductor takes while at a station.
If you look close at the train across the platform at "Grand Central" aka Court St., you'll see R-22 7339, which winds up as the lead motor of Pelham 1-2-3 as it enters 28th, er, Court St. Here's the real topper: 7339 is coupled to an R-10 at "Grand Central"!
It's been a long time since I saw the movie, and I didn't remember there being a big platform gap when the train was at GC/28th/Court Street, which is why I thought the R-16 might have been used. I guess I'll have to dig out the tape and pop it in the VCR for a refresher course.
You can't tell there is a gap at "Grand Central" because the camera shot is from inside the train. One other inaccuracy in that scene: just before the doors open, you can hear an R-10 "kssssss" sound, as if that R-22 had pneumatic doors.
The gap is definitely there at "28th St."
One other giveaway that an IND station was used for 28th St.: the signal plate identifies the track as A2, the northbound 8th Ave. local track.
I don't know about the rest of you but I hope that Train Dude has a nice early dinner, and posts the answer soon!
I am really curious!
Okay Karl and the rest of you. My grandkids went into the city so my dinner is going to be late today. Here's the answer but you have to promise not to vote me off Subtalk for this one.
Okay, here it is.
The TA operates on military time. Since the movie takes place in the afternoon, the train should have been the Pelham 13:23. To be Pelham 1:23, it would have been a midnight train.
Thanks Steve!
I can go to my sister-in-law's dinner happy.
I should have spotted that military time business right away!
The TA operates on military time. Since the movie takes place in the afternoon, the train should have been the Pelham 13:23. To be Pelham 1:23, it would have been a midnight train.
That never occurred to me. But when did the changeover from the 12- to 24-hour clock take place? And when was the book written? As of 1961 employee TTs were still on 12-hout clock.
Thats not an obvious error. When the movie was made, we weren't using military time. I thought you were going to say the Board of Transportation or NYCTS was operating the system from a non technical standpoint.
Hmmmmmmmmm - Everytime I try to have a little fun, some smartass gives me homework. The TA's been using military time for as long as I've been there. I suppose I'll have to look up the Policy Instruction on official time and see when it started.
It could be another example that different departments within the TA operate so differently that it is like working for a different company. This is one example. RTO did not use military time when that movie was made. I have been in RTO (and the TA) since 11/79 and military time was not used then either. I think they started using it somewhere between 5 and 10 years ago.
Sometime between 5 and 10 years ago was right...wish I could remember exactly. We changed to Military time in that time frame on Montana Rail Link and I'd guess all freight roads (was promoted to engineer in Mid l989) and a friend from Metro North I know started using such time referring to his jobs, and somebody sent me a NYCT fantirp GO showing things likewise, I'd guess it was a national change adopted on various properties nt he same time frame. I left NYCT in l977 and indeed we were on the AM and PM setup then.
BTW Dude I enjoyed the suspense; hope you enjoyed your dinner! Cheerio, Big ed.
As someone how has never seen the movie I thought it WAS a midnight train. After all, its a lot easier to get away w/ stuff when all the cops are in bed.
QUESTION: According to Stan Fischler, the NYCTA was not too thrilled to have the movie shot on the system for fears of copy cat behavior and actually asked for anti-hijack insurance. The question-- could it be that they told the movie production to use 123 to avoid having an IRT car with the number 1323. I am sure many people would not enjoy riding in 1323 if the movie had been "The Taking of Pelham 1323". It has already been stated here that there is no actual Pelham 123 departure--either 123am or 123pm(1323hrs).
I do recall them asking the Money Train movie people not to paint the car yellow.( I was not in the city when Pelham was being filmed.)
When my partner and I sought TA permission in the early '90's to design "Ride and Seek" the computer subway game, the MTA said "there can't be any violence of any sort, nor flagrantly illegal activity" portrayed at any time. We pointed to "The Taking of Pelham 123" and the MTA answer was, "That movie would certainly not be approved today." Well, we understood that answer not to be absolute- but it did apply to us. Obviously, we were right.
They disabled the trippers in both the book and the movie. In the book, they mention cutting the cords.
-Hank
Oops! They disabled the dead-mans, nnot the trippers. They finally syopped the train with a trip.
-Hank
it always seemed unrealistic to me that not a single passenger thinks to pull the emergency cord in the final sequence
Thank you! That's bothered me since I saw the movie. If that old guy who has been riding the trains for years is so knowledgable about the system, wouldn't it make sense that he knew about the emergency brake?
Dan
I have some possible ideas what the error might be:
1) The train finally stopped when it hit a tripper at the City Hall loop. The error could be that there was no Union Square-type of catastrophic crash.
2) Can you really defeat the "Dead Man's feature on the T/O controller?
3) Can you really electrocute yourself if you're wearing shoes? (I guess if they aren't rubber, you can. Anyway, I'm not going to experiment to test my theory on this one.
4) Martin Balsam exited from an emergency access street grating and wasn't immediately accosted by a homeless person at Union Square. Come to think of it....wasn't that grating at a point which is OVER the southbound platform of the station?
1) The train finally stopped when it hit a tripper at the City Hall loop. The error could be that there was no Union Square-type of catastrophic crash.
NOPE
2) Can you really defeat the "Dead Man's feature on the T/O controller?
I could but that's not what I had in mind!
3) Can you really electrocute yourself if you're wearing shoes? (I guess if they aren't rubber, you can. Anyway, I'm not going to experiment to test my theory on this one.
NOPE - If your shoes are wet but not what I had in mind!
4) Martin Balsam exited from an emergency access street grating and wasn't immediately accosted by a homeless person at Union Square. Come to think of it....wasn't that grating at a point which is OVER the southbound platform of the station?
NOPE
Lemme take a stab at this. All the signals are GREEN, especially at the tight turns.
Spotted today on the lay-up track south of Prospect Park, a 4 car train of R-40 SLANTS signed up for Franklin Shuttle service. Have they seen service ?
Only one train of a 2 car R-68s on the Franklin Shuttle.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is unlikely that a train of four of anything was in service on the Franklin Shuttle any time recently. The platforms are only 170' long (other than Prospect Park, of course), as they have been since the shuttle's rehabilitation. Four 60-footers would be roughly 240' long, and four 75-footers would be 300' long.
David
The other two-car set was in use on the G/V GO this morning, so the slants were probably there as protection for the set in use.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only way they could run them so would be if they only opened up the first two cars.
There's plenty of Slants to run on weekends; you have the entire "Q" fleet (that's ~240 cars total) napping at CI so sending a few up to cover the Shuttle wouldn't be a big deal.
wayne
Since the Franklin Shuttle is OPTO, to the TA it would be a big deal since they would have to pay a conductor, most likely at time-and-a-half for an RDO since they are always short of conductors especially on the weekend. This is because the conductor job has a high turnover rate with people taking promotions, resigning the job, and people being taken out of service for medical problems (orders of TA "doctor") & operational violations/suspensions. They fail to hire conductors as fast as they turn over.
Bill from Maspeth,
I was on the Shuttle on Saturday when the R-68s were out for that controversial test. Only ONE two car set of R-68s was operating with steamed passengers at Prospect Park. I can imagine steamed pasengers at Franklin as well as the other stations.
A four car train of R-40 SLANTS from the (Q) sat on the layup track south of Prospect Park for what ? How come they couldn't run the set to fill in for that missing set ?
They still could have run it with only two cars open and a conductor operating from the third car from the north motor. I am wondering what the back up set was there for, just in case the two car R-68s develope problems and was taken OOS ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The slants were there for protection of the Shuttle. They would only be used if the ONE 2 car train set of R68's failed and had to be removed from service.
Then one pair of the four would be put into service. If there was a problem getting back the paired R62's at the end of the weekend the other set of Slants was there to protect morning rush.
Yes you would need a full crew to run slants on the shuttle and they would be paying C/R's OT. But this was all CYA on the TA part.
Dang, I meant to say that the 4 car set is to protect the current 2 car set of R62's. Things should all be restored by morning rush. 4 car R40's since the cars would GAP OUT if you ran less than that.
I've been away too long from the keyboard (a week) and the subway...
[I've been away too long from the keyboard (a week) and the subway...]
Apparently....since I don't ever recall R-62's running on the B-Division...:-)
BMTman
"It is unlikely that a train of four of anything was in service on the Franklin Shuttle any time recently"
I saw at midnight coming home the same R40 slants there, and also at Church Ave a four car train of R68s signed "S" coming up the express track. I have no clue why. They used to have four car Franklin Shuttle trains with only the middle two for passengers, but that's gone.
>They used to have four car Franklin Shuttle trains with only the middle two for passengers, but that's gone.
Was that with 60' cars ?
"Was that with 60' cars?"
They had R-32s most of the time with 4 cars, 2 for passengers. Then they made the conversion to R-68s, and I don't recall if there was a time when they had 4 R-68s before they changed to today's 2 car-R68s.
What'd they use the end cars for? Why bother only using half the train for passengers?
Dan
They never run 2 60ft car trains on the road (in or out of service). One reason is that they could bcome unpowered in third-rail gaps. So the minimum was 4 cars, but they didn't need that many, so they closed the end cars off.
Wrong. Many times at CI I have observed a R40 Slant 2 car MU doing switch work.
Wayne I still see the three car MU R44. They are GOH cars. Will try to get closer next week.
Could that R44 be on its way to Staten Island ? I thought the mainline GOH ones were drawbarred into 4 car sets as well.
I doubt it, the SIR R44 MUs do not have letter signal signage, as this lash up was signaled "A". It's a 207 product.
2×60ft car trains can move in yard switching, but not in ROAD service or switching. (If it gaps in the yard, they can use 3rd rail jumpers, or push/pull it with other equipment).
2 51' cars held down the South Ferry shuttle at one time. How did they get it out of there to swap with the other 2 car R12 set ?
They probably got brought in via the Broadway line at South Ferry. Why is that little shuttle track still there? I do not see it being connected to anything in the foreseeable future, and unless it serves as a holding siding for some night moves by MOW equipment, what else is it used for? Can anyone out there tell me what usefulness it has?
It has no use today, but it's not bothering anyone, nor blocking anything. No need to remove it exists.
Kind of like the streetcar tracks and overhead power feeds in the Essex St. trolley terminal. They're not in anyone's way, so there's no need to remove them.
Actually, it's quite simple to maneuver a train onto the shuttle track. Come into Bowling Green southbound, switch to the inner loop track past the station, and back up onto the shuttle track once the switch is reset.
Actually, it was for the protection of the train crew.
Yup, with R32's as recently as 1995.
Yes. When the R-11s were still around, they ran in 3-car trains on the shuttle, either as a solid consist or one R-11 coupled to a pair of R-32s. Wonder why they never used R-16s there.
60 foot cars haven't been used on the shuttle since the conductors jobs were eliminated. The end cars were isolated by the motormen to provide security for the crew at terminals during layovers. Back in the days, there was a lot of crime in the system and it was a common occurance for a T/O to cut out his car to keep the riff raff out, although not legal to the book.
I would bet that the 4 car train of Franklin Shuttle cars were cut 2x2 at Prospect Park for 2 trains (one train was already on the road for the midnite). Sunday morning, one of those trains which arrived the nite before was used for the road with the other held as a gap train if one of the other 2 trains had to go out of service.
That's most unusual Bill. Perhaps the R-68 set had problems and had to be replaced for a brief time.
BMTman
I doubt it. Since there are only 9 R68 singles around and 6 went to the G Line, That'd leave 3 and then you have 2 on the Franklin Shuttle leaving 1. Single car moves aren't allowed in the yard and I'm sure not the mainline.
I thught it was a 4 car set and 2 from the shuttle ?
The April 2001 issue of Architecture has a small piece about City Hall station and a quote from me and a plug for the site. Check it out if you can!
Congrats, I'll have to keep my eyes open for it.
It's not a magazine people will find at the checkout line of their local Safeway store, but any good architectural bookstore should have a current copy. There's one in Midtown (I forget the name offhand) and possibly others in the NYC area. Here in Chicago, Prairie Avenue Bookstore (www.pabook.com) on Wabash between Van Buren and Congress will have it for sale near the front counter, as well as many year's worth of back issues.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Since this involves the demolision and reconstruction of Stillwell terminal, it's sort of on topic.
Tomorrow, Sunday April 15, 2001 is the last day Philips candy store, a fixture of old Coney Island since 1930. There was a lot of activity there. Plenty of people taking last pictures as was I.
They still have souvenir postcards for sale. I acquired a small quanitity for SubTalkers who may not have one or make it out there tomorrow to buy one. If interested, please contact me by e-mail and I'll mail you one in an envelope.
The little hole in the wall pizza shop around the corner on Stillwell Ave is closing Monday the 16th and will relocate to 1220 Surf Ave. I guess the corner convience store is next.
One alley way has barricades dividing the walkway. The other alley way is closed. It seems that this will be the first portion to remove the old stores etc.
Get your last shots of the old Stillwell Terminal, demolision is sooner than you think.
Bill "Newkirk"
When exactly do they run? I heard they were on the R7 (plus the thing in the schedule leads one to believe that), so I waited from 5:PM to 5:35 PM at Market east (that automated voice gets so annoying) watching three R7 departures (and riding the third), nothing. I did see one set on the R2 Warminster, kinda hard to avoid noticing since it was the only train to enter the station with a bell. When I get to Trenton I see one push-pull train on the side with all the signs removed, so I have nothing to go on to figure out which run it was. One sign did say Express, though right above it the route designation was R5, so I doubt it should be taken as the gospel truth...
So my question is, what R3 West Trenton or R7 Trenton runs are blessed with the Bombardiers and Alp-44s? Are they the same trains every time, or are they in rotation?
I was at 30th St on Friday evening (around 6 pm), and saw at least 3 of them come through on track 4. I don't recall the routes they were running. There were some problems and delays at the time, so maybe they were trains scheduled to be running much farther apart. They were running trains with less than one car headways (with both trains in motion!) in the station at one point, to recover from whatever delays happened before I arrived.
NRHS' 'Cinders' had published this info in past issues, but I don't recall exact details. I know that at least 2-3 are laid up at Suburban Station for the PM rush, with one going out on a Paoli/Thorndale trip I usually see hitting 30th St at about 5:15 each afternoon. Those on R3 West Trenton had been withdrawn for a while this past winter and I'm not certain when they went back (they did fill in on R2 Wilmington and R7 Trenton for a while in that period).
It's a fairly safe bet that the only line which might have run-throughs with the push-pulls is R5. The majority of the runs using them are peak-hour trips, usually the 'stub-end' variety (i.e. R5 expresses leaving Suburban), since the off-peak capacity isn't needed. They have not been used on R1, R6 and R8 at all, and only on R2 Wilmington/Newark, R3 West Trenton, and R7 Trenton in addition to R5. During the '98 SEPTA strike, R3 Media/Elwyn ran them on one run.
Took my misses to Tony Roma's for lunch today, and the manager instantly recognized my "N" shirt and said he used to ride that train and the "R" all the time in the ten years he lived in the city. I told him to forget the "R" and we started to talk about the Sea Beach. That's when he told me he didn't care for that train all that much, and he loved the "A" train. The conversation ended pretty quickly after that, but I wonder what would have STEVE8AVEXP felt if he heard that considering his love for that line. Well at least someone recognized the shirt. I find some Sea Beach comrades one of these days. I'm told that Danny Kaye liked riding that line.
Heh. No respect, eh? Between the motorman slipping you a Bronx handshake and them dissing your ride even where you live, have you considered becoming a disciple of the mighty D train yet? :)
Sea Beach seems to equal bad kharma these days. Heh.
I'd rather fight than switch. I just wrote those two guys off as inbeciles.
all the way out here to cali !! now thats real good !!!
Salaam: It would have been better if he had something nice to say about my train but he didn't. My wife noticed how steamed I was and actually moved me along. I wasn't that mad but I do remember giving that manager some dirty looks as he crept by my table. I must have thought me odd that somebody could take a train so seriously. But as Brighton Express Bob can tell you, I do have those weird periods where the Sea Beach is concerned. And Thursday is a big holiday for me and you guys out there are going to know about it.
Gee, how many homeboys do you chat with every day when you wear your Franklin Shuttle t-shirt?
zman179, no offense but what have you been smoking? I have no Franklin Shuttle "T" shirt and wouldn't know what to do with one if I had---perhaps check my oil. You must have someone else in mind.
Question ? how much does the tee shirt cost ? do you have one in 2xl size ?? color ?? etc??
If someome were to tell me they didn't care for the A, that's cool. Everyone has a right to have their own opinion. I wouldn't blow a gasket over it. So far, it hasn't been much of a problem in Denver. Many peopole I've met have never been to New York. I've had my 8AVEXP license plates for ten years now, and in all that time, only one person managed to figure out what that means. And he was a Columbia grad to boot!
Would someone please explain the following:
NJT is building the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line. They are also building a huge terminal for making train connections in Secaucus, in addition to other projects.
By contrast, the MTA, with all of its promises and planning studies, has never built much of anything, in terms of mass transit, since its creation.
Sure, they've reconstructed lines (ex. Franklin Ave. Shuttle, end of J/Z line etc.), and have torn down lines. They've even done a pretty good job with maintaining their rolling stock (ex. Redbirds), and I am sure the R142's they are purchasing will eventually turn out okay.
However, none of the above changes the fact that the MTA can't seem to -build- anything, in terms of new lines - not just on 2nd Avenue, but anywhere. I know they have to deal with things like public hearings, Environmental Impact Studies, fantasy funding, etc. However, with whatever extent NJT has to deal with these types of procedures and issues, they still manage to actually build.
Any suggestions as to why this difference exists? I am doing a paper that partially concerns this issue, and would gratefully welcome any suggestions.
Thanks!
While the failure to build 2nd Avenue can't be ignored, if you look back 15 years, one must consider that New Jersey had much more pressing needs than the eastern side of the Hudson as far as rail transit goes.
And despite all of the improvements, there still isn't a single town/city/village north of Newark with a one seat rail ride into Manhattan. And when all of the improvements still going on in New Jersey, there will still only be two -- Montclair and Secaucus. Of course, you'll have to go south to Newark anyway to get your one-seat ride from Penn. And I'm not sure if the Secaucus transfer station will have local access. (at one time it was not intended to -- it was to be transfer only).
As far as red tape goes, note that outside the HBLR and the Montclair connection every other project has been built in the middle of nowhere (Meadowlands, the largely abandoned rail yards between Newark and Elizabeth). The Montclair connection went through 15 years of bureaucratic red tape to build less than one mile of track. The HBLR was forced to take a largely useless routing through Hoboken because of local NIFOMA's (Not In Front Of My Apartment). And there's no guarantee the HBLR will ever make it throught the Bergen tunnels out to the Meadowlands Park-n-Ride. (and certainly no guarantee that anyone will have any reason to ride it if it does).
The grass may appear greener on the other side of the Hudson, but that's only the glow of environmental contamination you're seeing.
CG
Secaucus will have local access. I saw a few pictures (forgot where) showing what Secacus will look like opening day (station in the middle of nowhere) and 10 years from opening day (station in the middle of a fast-growing center of business). Obviously that kind of transformation will not be possible if the thing was transfer-only.
I think you can find what I'm talking about in the customer service room at Newark.
Here is a more complete list of what NJT has/is done:
Secaucas Connection
Waterfront Connection
Electrified to Long Branch
Hi-level platforms on the NEC (and elsewhere)
Hammelton commuter depot
EWK Airport station
Servide extention to Hackettstown
HLBR
Camden-Trenton LR
Boonton Line electrification
Montclair Connection
Cherry Hill station and service to 30th St.
I noticed that too. Here's a list of NJ stuff which has happened in the last 10 years (or so) or is currently being worked on (within the confines of NJ Transit):
Hamilton station built
HBLR built
first HBLR extension opened
HBLR currently being extended at both ends
Newark City Subway being redone and extended
Northeast Corridor train storage yard being built in Pennsylvania
Newark Airport Rail station
South Jersey Light Rail being built
Montclair connection and electrification(which may or may not lead to station closings)
M & E lines to Hackettstown
MidTOWN Direct
Waterfront Connection
Secaucus transfer being built
Low platforms raised
Cape May Seashore Lines (NJT is giving money)
28 more projects under consideration (including West Trenton branch, Phillipsburg extensions, more Penn Station tunnels, West Shore rail line, M O M, City Subway extended to Paterson, etc)
Now, let's look at New York (within the confines of the MTA):
Franklin ave shuttle rebuilt
Archer Ave extension
LIRR diesel fleet replacement and platforms raised to accommodate such
Dual Mode Service on the aforementioned LIRR
63st
63st connector
MNRR extended to Wassaic
The oh-so-useful AIRTRAIN (not part of MTA but the NY side of the argument needs all the help it can get)
Studies on this, that, and possibly the other thing
You forgot some other MTA bits:
Massive re-signaling project on Metro-North
Near Universal Hi-level platforms on Metro-North
Several electrification extentions on the LIAR (Ronkonkoma?)
Catenary dis-improvement on the New Haven line in NY State
Electrification extention from White Plains to Brewster North on MN.
The Penn Station CTC project (I think that was mostly an LIAR push)
Concrete ties everywhere
New Cannaan line catenary dis-improvement
New stations at Stamford and Bridgeton
New drawbridge at Bridgeton
Okay, you got me on the concrete ties, since when is New Cannaan, Stamford, and Bridgeton in New York, and how much of this was done in the last 10 years?
In all of the 1990's, what did the dysfunctional MTA/LIRR do ?
- eliminated one grade-crossing (Herricks Road)
- relocated one station with trackage (Stony Brook)
- mostly completed delivery of a new diesel fleet, but only several dual-modes (rather than electrify to Port Jeff and buy some more MU's and a smaller diesel fleet).
That doesn't sound like much to me given lavish capital budgets.
They got more done in each of the 1960's, 70's, and 80's when they had to beg for every dollar.
Chalk it up to arrogance and stupidity.
yesterday, I observed a couple of R-68s on the (N) and one R-68A on the (B) with missing end signs from the blind end of R-68s. The signs were gone and you can se the fluorescent tubes. Since these were the blind ends, were the signs removed so additions can be added ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The signs were taken for parts. It's unlikely that they'll be replaced as they no longer see head-end service.
Tonight, at about 10:30, I was waiting for a northbound F train to Queens. The wait was long.
I noticed a slant-face R-40 which was about 12 cars long, and each car was marked L. I wonder what that was about.
Also, does anyone know if the old switch connecting the F train to the J,M,Z at Delancey street still functions?
Yes it does. Ridership levels don't allow it to be used although I do see alot of people getting off at Essex to transfer to the F Line.
Will there ever be a plan to make use of that connection anytime in the foreseeable future? The amount of money sunk into that construction was significant, and to see it unused is very annoying. I would like to see all subway lines taken off the bridges and placed in tunnels, but I guess that will happen when I am dead and buried for at least 90 years. I hope to live long enough to see the Second Ave. Line up and running, but I will not hold my breath. Are there any new lines proposed for Brooklyn or Queens sometime soon? How about Staten Island, which could use a connection to the rest of this great metropolis. All I hear about is studies and more studies, but no action.
>Will there ever be a plan to make use of that connection anytime in the foreseeable future? The amount of money sunk into that onstruction was significant, and to see it unused is very annoying. I would like to see all subway lines taken off the bridges and placed in tunnels.
There are now plans to put that part of the Chrystie street connection back in revenue service because of a lack of customers. The original purpose was to encourage people off the F onto the KK which it failed to do. Equipping the Jamaica El with R16's in 1955 when the Queens IND still had R1-9's didn't do it either. That would have sent more people over a bridge, less threw the tunnel, the opposite of what you want.
There are NO plans
I wonder if they're moving cars from Eastern Division to Coney Island or from Coney Island to Eastern Division again...
wayne
They're probably just doing periodical work on them. 4444-5 and another pair were up at 207th for about a week, then returned to ENY last week with brand new trucks. (We were going to use it to practice cuts&adds, but the motors were still cut out or something.)
For a move like that, they would use the Chrystie cut, which is the most direct route. (We may get to use it in school car, if necessary).
To all my fellow subtalkers celebrating Easter today...I hope it will be a wonderful celebration for all of you. :-) -Nick
HAPPY EASTER TO MY FELLOW SUBTALKERS !
Bill "Newkirk"
Easter and Patriots Day fall on the same weekend. Which means the 105th running of the Boston marathon is this monday. Want more excitement? How about a four game series between the Red Sox and Yankees at Fenway Park! This subtalker was there on Friday, and will be back today (sunday) wearing my pinstripes proudly! -Nick
heheheh that's why i'll be nyc :-)
Transit & Weather Together Monday PM.
(Easter and Patriots Day fall on the same weekend.)
Back in 1924 or 25 the Boston elevated railway took advantage of this rare double holiday (the marathon wasn't as big then) to convert the entire east Boston tunnel from a street car tunnel to a heavy rail tunnel. This involved the raising of platforms installation of third rail and tying in the new maverick transfer terminal.
(Which means the 105th running of the Boston marathon is this monday.)
Back about 20 years ago one of the runner her name escapes me at the moment thought she would have a better chance of winning if she took the green line. She did and was caught after she won now there is a system to prevent this from happening.
Another note is that because of the marathon the Berkley Street entrance to Arlington station and the boylston street entrance to Heinz/ICA will be open. The only day of the year that they are.
?Another note is that because of the marathon the Berkley Street entrance to Arlington station and the boylston street entrance to Heinz/ICA will be open. The only day of the year that they are."
I believe the Boylston St. entrance to Hynes used to be open on weekdays until they closed the entrance last year. -Nick
And it was Rosie Ruiz who droped a token.
I think I saw her on the A train today (Transit & Weather Together originates from NYC this afternoon :-)
I've been looking at the NTSB report on the Washington Metro Accident (1996) at http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1996/RAR9604.htm.
Since we were debating CBTC, I thought I would bring this up. The accident was partly blamed on the design of the signalling system. The system used coded track circuits for ATC rather than a CBTC type solution. This meant that, when the lead car of the train overran its penultimate station, it had overrun the insulated track joints for that block. As a result, it did not receive a safety-critical transmission. Now, to me this looks like an argument against coded track-circuit and for radio-based CBTC. Although, a well designed coded track-circuit system should have been able to cope with this kinda thing.
Incidentally, according to the report, the Metro train struck a stationary train after overrunning the station by some 600 ft. Impact speed was some 22-29mph but the aluminium-monocoque coach bodies telescoped. The emergency brake button in the cab was found in the depressed position, but as there were no skid marks on the tracks Metrorail judged that it was not operated by the T/O.
I would be interested to know whether these trains were equipped with sanders.
The T/O apparently was found outside the cab, so he must have tried to exit the cab although extensive damage to the coach meant that he did not survive the impact. My calculation shows that the T/O had about 14 seconds from sighting the train and realizing that he would overrun the platform to exit the cab. I have absolutely no idea he didn't leg it, but I think that he did not expect the train to telescope the way it did. The chances are he was considerably further back in the first coach and was thrown towards the cab area by the impact.
Lexcie
Well, obviously nobody gives a shite about this, so...
Hey, Web Site Host, you may as well delete this thread, cuz it's really useless!
As a BUDD fanatic myself, I certainly am sad they are gone (Thyssen a huge German firm owns what's left) but the genius lives on at Mafersa in Brasil, and at some factory on the Iberian peninsula. In fact the 'body shells' for the first order of "California Cars" (generally in service on San Jose Sacto, and Oakland, Bakersfield trains) were welded up at one of the BUDD descendents. BUT as Larry L has eloquently pointed out before, it is impossible to maintain a business waiting ten years for an order. Given the TINY volume of US rail passenger systems, the Fed requirement for domestic content (which has sometimes been localised to must be assembled in a given county to qualify for bidding) it is nuts to expect to maintain a permanent factory/workforce in any one location. Thus the one-time MK Bise plant which did such yeoman work on GOH's for the TA is not currently doing that. OTOH some of the new cars(the Kawasaki's IIRC) are being final assembled in NY state-Tarrytown?. And with a few exceptions, most modern cars are SS no matter the name on the builder's plates.
Shotweld!
the Fed requirement for domestic content (which has sometimes been localised to must be assembled in a given county to qualify for bidding) it is nuts to expect to maintain a permanent factory/workforce in any one location.
I wonder if that's why Breda built a final assembly facilty near Atlanta for MARTA's new subway cars. I was hoping that place would be used in the future for building other cities' transit cars.
BUT as Larry L has eloquently pointed out before, it is impossible to maintain a business waiting ten years for an order.
What do you mean 10 years for an order. Look at all the railcars that have been ordered by US RR's and transit agencies. Imagine if Budd was still around to handle the M-4's, the R-142/143's, Bi-level LIAR coaches, VRE bi's, California cars, NJT Comet VI's, etc, etc, etc, etc. I'm surprised that Budd went out of bussiness with all the various cars it was making towards the end of its carrier.
okay, let us add the whopping ten car order for CSS&SB,the LA Red line, and the Norristown line cars (which should have been either PATCO clones or something similar IMHO) Now which of these contracts would the 'BUDD' folks have won? And while you are at it where is the sympathy for St. Louis Car Co--builder of most of the Redbirds AND Wayne's beloved Slants? My point is that these has not been enough volume to keep any single let alone several plants running in the US. If I am wrong on the stats then please correct me, but I believe the production history will prove out.
You're absolutely right here, Dave.
What would be the very best year expected by transit manufacturers?
Let's say all the heavenly bodies lined up the right way and the subway gods smiled upon us in America from Mount Redbird. In one year, hypothetically speaking:
1) NYC Transit orders 1,000 cars for the IRT and 1,000 cars for the IND/BMT
2) Washington Metro orders 250 new cars
3) Miami Metrorail orders 100 new cars
4) Let's say that SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line got all its 225(??) cars that year too.
5) Kawasaki was assigned to rebuild/rehab its Broad Street Subway cars
6) The Chicago Transit Authority decided to order 500 new subway cars
7) BART ordered its entire fleet rebuilt.
So what's the total: A little over 3,000 cars, not counting rebuilds, with the new cars costing up to $1.5 million each. That would come out to $5 billion in total orders, which would not occur again for at least 20-30 years.
How many boxcars/flatcars, container stack cars are built and sold every year? More than the above, to be sure.
Boeing Co. sells 500-600 commercial airliners per year, at prices into the hundreds of millions each. That's every year, not once in 20 years.
So how do we get around this problem?
More cities in the Western Hemisphere with subways
The manufacturers also build for European and Asian markets. If Berlin, Madrid (which has a very nice subway), Paris, London, Beijing (2 line subway) Singapore etc. are markets as well, there's enough combined demand to support more than one manufacturer. But since there are already multiple manufacturers out there (CAF, Breda, Bombardier, Alsthom, Kawasaki) how much room is there for us...
Here are a few examples that are currently on TV:
There's a Hewlett-Packard commercial set around the Helsinki Tram. I forget what the commercial was exactly about, but there was something about being able to know the exact time the Tram would come. While the voice over was saying that, the Tram was coming and kids were running out of their houses seemingly to get on the Tram. Instead the kids start throwing snowballs at the Tram, and as the Tram goes down the neighborhood, more kids are coming out to hit it. That commercial was hilarious.
There's a Levi's commercial with a fake subway. Nothing special about it except the doors on that subway were cool looking.
There's a commercial on Cartoon Network about the channel that has some great shots of MARTA on it. The beginning is set right outside Philips Arena, which is adjacent to the CNN Center. Cartoon Network obviously didn't have to go far to flim this. Anyway, the commercial shows a bunch of cartoon characters being chased by kids, they pass a fake sign that says "subway." Then they go down to the mezzanine of Omni/Dome/GWCC and go thru the turnstiles to the platform. Then there are some good shots of an Eastbound train leaving the station. It must have been really convenient for them to use that station. In addition to that stop being at Turner's footsteps, that station is only busy when there's a convention, basketball, football, hockey game, concert or any other special event. All other times, the station is pretty much empty. They probably had a good window of oppurtunity to film some time early morning without worrying about people bothering them.
I'm sure that Hollywood is glad L.A. finally got a subway that they can use to fill in for NYC or another place instead of building a set or shooting on location. I've seen a volley of commercials recently that have scenes shot on the Red Line, including one for Skechcers footwear and Target.
>>> I'm sure that Hollywood is glad L.A. finally got a subway that they can use to fill in for NYC or another place.... I've seen a volley of commercials recently that have scenes shot on the Red Line, including one for Skechcers footwear and Target <<<
I have seen those commercials too. They are nationwide commercials, but they certainly did not try to disguise the subway as New York or anyplace other than L.A.
Tom
I've seen the L.A. subway in a commericial or two, and there's also one for the Atlantis Resort in the Bahamas that has some very good footage of PATH.
Mark
Well, I wasn't saying that these commercials were made to look like any other place than L.A. They really were just to look like a subway.
The point I was making, as we all know here, is that Hollywood likes to mock up a set or an actualy subway system to look like another, particularly for NYC when most of us buffs here can spot the typically numerous errors that revesl it to not only be the subway they say it is, but often that it's not a subway at all(i.e. lack of a third rail, etc).
Movies like "Money Train" and "The Fugitive" do subways justice. Movies like "Earthquake in New York" and often T.V. series with subway shoots do not.
A subway commercial, esp. if for upscale merchandise with attractive actors/actresses, also has the effect, indirectly, of communicating that riding the subway is cool.
Desktop Themes
Platform: Windows 95/98/ME with Desktop Themes installed. You also need WinZip or another archiving program to unzip the files.
Description: Ever want your computer to resemble a transit system with the system colors, sounds, wallpaper, and screen saver (for ME users only)? Have you tried but never succeeded with a certain aspect? Desktop themes are now available for Windows 95/98/ME.
Themes available: Washington Metro New, Washington Metro Old, New York City Subway, Redbird (NYC), SEPTA, SEPTA Subway-Elevated, and Acela
Download them off of http://www.orenstransitpage.com. Click on Download Station, about two thirds of the way down the page.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of OTP
Apparently I don't have the program "Desktop Themes." I don't know if that is part of Windows ME or something separate (I'm running 2K Pro). Also, just constructive criticism, but webpages with automatic music is really annoying!
It comes with all versions of Windows 95 or better. Weather you install it or not is a different matter.
What do you have against the music?
>>> It comes with all versions of Windows 95 or better. <<<
I think it was Windows 98 rather than 95. Before I upgraded to 98 I was using a shareware Desktop Themes program.
>>> What do you have against the music? <<<
It rarely adds anything to the website it comes from, it slows download of the information from the website, and worst of all it clashes with the cool jazz or blues that are playing in the background when I am working on the computer.
Tom
I think it was Windows 98 rather than 95. Before I upgraded to 98 I was using a shareware Desktop Themes program.
It came with the Microsoft Plus Pack in 95. It was in 98 that everybody got it.
I had it when I got 95...
It's in Control Panel. I also have Win2k Pro.
Well if you want some nice CTA action and some good clean laughs set in sweet home Chicago (but not much else) then run out and catch "Just Visiting" before it leaves theatres (and trust me, you don't have much time).
I'm sure you've all seen the previews on TV so I won't bore you with a plot recap. Here is the imdb listing http://us.imdb.com/Title?0189192
On a railfan rating from STOP to CLEAR I am going to give it an APPROACH MEDIUM
There are constant shots of the EL (and just like in the Blues Brothers, whenever you see the EL there is a train going by) and two scenes featuring the EL. The second of which involves a horse being ridden onto the platform and onto an EL train (it didn't show how they got past fare control). The other railfan tidbit was a shot of the 21st St. drawbridge (AMTRAK nee-PRR) being raised.
Long and short of it...if you are both a railfan and an SF&F fan (or if you just like Chicago) it is definitly worth the price of a matinee admission (or a hop) and a "should see". If you just are interested in the railfan action catch it on a hop or wait until it hits the $2 theatre.
I miss the Sarge, his understanding, patience and tolerance as well as his love of the Subway made him a giant of the SubTalk community.
Write them both on AWOL charges.
I don't know about Sarge, but heypaul is still experiencing ups and downs on elevatortalk.
Send an SOS and get heypaul back on line quickly. I miss reading his off the wall posts. I'd also like to find out about his subway cab in his pad. That is all time. So come on heypaul, get back online and let us enjoy your humor. After reading and replying to what has happened in Cincy, and how it relates to Israel, I need to read things that will lighten up the atmosphere a little bit.
They, like numerous others, got fed up with the insanity here that involved immature political views that are skewed towards the idiotic.
-Hank
Also, some of us got tired of the same threads going on...and on... and on....and on...without really saying much of anything.
BMTman
I have to agree with Hank and BMT, I find myself reading and visiting here less and less. It is a shame such a great resource has de'evolved.
Of course some of these threads have brought out the Constitutional Scholars among us.
But the issue of local vs. state vs. federal power and control (and the ways that control is obtained) is very much On Topic and important in terms of transit.
However, it seems anything which requires any depth beyond simple technical details goes off topic very quickly.
Basically I don't see the problem. There are many threads I don't bother to read. I don't complain about them. Even if they're on topic. I don't complain about all of the Queens Boulevard threads. The only thing is that I think all of us (including myself) should be more mindful of changing subject headers.
I always hit the SEPTA threads because it's near and dear to me. I also read a lot about NYC Subway systems because often it's quite
intersting and informative. But a lot of stuff is repetitive, etc.
I guess we just pick and choose want we want to read, and skip the others.
Chuck Greene
I cure that by ignoring the board for a few days. Of course, that is why I missed the whole QB line test Saturday morning (and I live 3 blocks from it!). I bet they'll be back in a few weeks' time.
I was riding the redbird 2 line I noticed from the railfan window that the water problem is back again.I thought this problem was solved.There was a stream of water gushing just south of 116th station.Northbound I observed water in the middle gully part from 116th street to 135th street, I hope TA doesnt have to rip up Lenox Avenue again to fix this problem.If this persists it will make the roadbed soft and lacking support.
The water was back within weeks of the time that the Invert project was finished. There is NO way to make it go away - it comes from a natural spring under Lenox Ave.
So the best the TA can do is make sure there is adequate drainage to channel the water away from the tunnels.
Why not switch the roadbed to something that won't be affected by the water such as gravel?
Dan
Got news today that yesterday's G/V test didn't bode very well. The trains were experiencing congestion all the way to 63rd Drive for the most part. And this was during a Saturday. Imagine this scenario on a Monday evening rush hour.
ACTO Kevin O'Connell was at Continental Av for the test, and even he said that it doesn't look good.
So G fans, looks like you might have to change for that good ol' V train. Too bad really, I was hoping that it was gonna work.
Mind you that this isn't written in stone, but I'll book any wagers on G service staying put on QB.
Of course the test did not go well. That was the desired result!
Maybe if they tested a reasonable service plan instead of a moronic
one things would work better, but that's not the point. The point
is to show "see, we told you the G thing can't work". Having a
mix of through and terminating trains on D4 track at Continental
was done before, early 90s I think, and the result was the same:
congestion waiting to get into the station.
I should point out that if you have already made up your mind about something, you can find any excuse to condemn the results of a trial.
There are those of us who have not, Ron, but it does seem to me that this test was designed from the start to fail, just as Jeff has stated. I don't know what the right answer is, but I do believe that this test was not a realistic one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"There are those of us who have not, Ron, but it does seem to me that this test was designed from the start to fail, just as Jeff
has stated. I don't know what the right answer is, but I do believe that this test was not a realistic one."
That's certainly possible. I cannot, myself, tell whether it was or not so I am reading others' opinions on Subtalk and the media.
"I do believe that this test was not a realistic one."
The G running to 179th and the R/V, two Manhattan services, turning at Continental is definitely not realistic. It would've worked had they ran the R or V {preferably V since it is part time} to 179th and turned the other Manhattan local and the G at Continental. Less work. But why did they run the G to 179th? They need Manhattan service. The G is lucky enough to be on QB. They want to run it all the way to 179th when you have the R or V all set to go out there? This is like the most annoying invention of the V, and the fact that the Q lost it's rights to 63rd St. It has been the line on 63rd for the 1990s, and plans were to extend the Q out there, but instead we create the V starting at 2nd Ave.
The Q is a Broadway line temporarily running on 6th Avenue because of the MannyB closure.
This test was realistic in the sense it proved turning trains around at Continental won't work too well.
It didn't prove anything because the results were made to come out as was hoped for. Kalikow and Pataki said make it work. Pataki once told the TA while they were kicking and screaming to implement monthly and daily-unlimited Metrocards and intermodal transfers or get your resumes polished up.
Prolonged dwell times to kick homeless off the trains, and then crawling and sitting on the ramps to and from the turnaround area will have to be reformed. Get more platform conductors and cops, make some high visibility arrests and fines for trespassing, and re-learn how to reverse trains faster. There are either too many trains bucnching up east of the station, or relief crews should take over consist when they change ends.
"This test was realistic in the sense it proved turning trains around at Continental won't work too well."
But they picked the wrong trains to turn. The G should be one of them, and the R or V should go to 179th.
This test was realistic. I don't think the concern of running three QB locals is track capacity. The biggest concern, other than rolling stock, is turn around time at Continental. I will now present what I believe should be corrected and changed if the TA management decides to run a test again.
Here in DC at Grosvenor, every other train terminates there most of the time. During rush hours, when a train only has three minutes from the time it discharges passengers on the northbound side until it has to close up on the southbound side, when the train arrives, a T/O (T/O #2) gets on the train at the rear (Silver Spring end). The passengers alight and the train pulls out empty except for the two T/Os, one at each end. The train pulls into the pocket north of the station, T/O #1, at the front of the train, turns off the train, T/) #2 turns it on at the new front of the train (Silver Spring end), and the train returns to Grosvenor to pick up passengers for the inbound run. T/O #1 alights when they reach Grosvenor again and walks so he can board at the back of the next train terminating at Grosvenor. The train heads into DC with T/O #2 at the head end and the whole cycle starts again. This takes three minutes to do. No delays, no trains backed up to Pooks Hill Road or White Flint. When there is more time for the turn around (weekends is 6 minutes, for example), the same T/O keeps the train since he has time to walk through the train while it sits on the pocket.
Now, in NYC, I believe the crew bringing in the train to Continental no matter if it is G, R, or V, will take it for the return trip. If they want to run the test again, have either the R or V (I would do the latter) run to 179th instead of the G and have the train crews at Continental do the following.
When the train arrives at Continental, train crew #1 stays on board and train crew #2 boards with a T/O on the Manhattan end of the train and conductor in the middle. T/O #1 brings the train to the relay point and then train crew 2 takes over. Just like at Grosvenor. Train crew 1 gets off at Continental and goes to the Queensbound side to take the next arrival for their line. No crew will come in on the G and take out the R. No train crew will walk through the train to be abused by the ignorant, deaf and mute passengers who didn't get off the train. It all works well.
Comments, questions, critisism?
Presently, the northbound (i.e. queens-, or jamaica-bound) crew
of a terminating local train at Continental stays on the train,
relays it to the southbound side, walking through the train, and
dumps it there, where the southbound crew takes over. The northbound
crew generally has a fairly long layover until the next trip, unless
things are messed up. During the AM rush, the southbound crews
sometimes board on the northbound platform, rear car, to minimize
the time that the train stays "on the stand".
The cause of congestion northbound is the time the train waits
at Continental. Two factors: removing passengers from the train
(not an issue if it is a relay, but at the end of the PM rush,
a lot of trains are going to the yard), and waiting to get down
into the relay tracks. Basically, a relaying train which enters the
D6 crotch track doesn't clear D4 track in the station until the train
ahead of it has completed crossing over to its spot on the
two center stub tracks down there. It's all slow crossovers, timers,
bumping blocks, etc.
If your dispatcher and tower operator are good and all the crews
are clueful, you can certainly turn 30 tph at Continental provided
you don't have to clear the train of passengers. I'd suggest that
layup trains discharge at Continental and then run light to Union
Tpke or 179, where there is less pressure, empty the train there,
and then go to Jamaica Yard via the other leg of the yard wye.
Don't do the bedchecks at all except for train heading to the yard. That would solve most of the problems.
Why do they do those checks for relay moves? People can't even ride through the South Ferry loop when the 5 turns at Bowling Green, same with the 6 at City Hall. It's their own fault/pleasure if they stay on, only for the yard moves the train should be checked.
It's not because of revenue, of course, since no paying passengers ever gets kicked out of fare control in a station with a crossover mezzanine or island platform. I wonder if it's something in the TA's liability handbook (if there is such a thing - the TAis self-insured, isn't it?)
They never check the 5 and 6 around the loops. I've done both several times (this is my chance to mess with the rear bulkhead rollsigns and marker lights). The T/O doesn't have to walk through the train, so why bother?
It used to be legal once, right?
You can not carry passangers on non-revenue track (tracks not in service to the public like yard trackage). The city hall loop thanks to Rudy is now non-revenue track. The train should be cleared at Brooklyn Bridge by the C/R. If they are not doing it, they are breaking the rules.
Even if the train is just being relayed, it has to be cleared. Relay tracks are non-revenue. G.O.'s can change this, like the IRT running around the South Ferry inner loop.
For the last couple of days have been reading the various msg's on the traffic on Queens Blvd. The following are my thoughts on the subject as a long ago rider of the E/F.
The F goes to 179th St and runs express like it did back in my day.Then thru the 63st tunnel and down 6th Ave. and on to CI
The E goes to Parsons and runs express like it does now from Union Tkp
and goes via the 53rd St tunnel and down 8th Ave.
The R can go to 179th St running local all the way. It would take the 60th st Tunnel and then down Bwy and on to Bklyn.
The G runs like it always has in Queens turning at Contential.
This way with the "Car Shortage" all routes are covered and the business areas in Manhattan are covered via the main Div B arteries. Bwy ^th & 8th.
N need to run any other trains or new lines just keep the KISS principal in mind. (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Burn the Slow Orders Run Eight
Curt
OK, now go stand at Lexington Ave/51st Street at rush hour and explain to the nice people why half as many trains are running there under your plan, or why they can't easily get to the Sixth Avenue lines.
"F goes to 179th St and runs express. . .E goes to Parsons and runs express. . .R can go to 179th St running local all the way"
The QB local stops east of Continental want exp service west of Continental. However, I never said it was hard to walk across the platform and wait a three minutes.
I used to get the F at Houston St where it turned back in the early 60's. Usually slept from W 4th to 75th Ave then got off at Union Tkp. Walked across the platfom and waited for the E that followed the F and got off at Supthin Blvd. as the E ran local to 179th ST from there.
The can have a branch on Hillside Avenue, but how would that help the crowded situation at Jamaica Center and the connection with the J/Z?
If they don't have enough cars, maybe they can put the G (4 subway cars)/R (6 subway cars) to 179th Street. Meanwhile, the V (8 subway cars) will have a terminus at 71st St. CTL Ave.
The R has 72 percent of the Riding passengers and when the V gets put in service, I expect the number to decrease further. Therefore, my plan will be to make the R 6 cars and the G 4 cars. The V will be 8 cars. That should solve the subway car shortages.
Maybe they can make the E 11 cars to fulfill the void for the missing F express line along 53rd Street.
Also, maybe the G can be a none rush hour line to CTL Avenue. Three locals services just doesn't make much since. Meanwhile, the V will be an only rush hour service.
However, what comes to mind, can the E handle all that passenger traffic along the 53rd Street Route during non rush hours? And, how would people feel about a non sixth avenue line during these hours?
Again. The best idea would be to cut the amount of cars used for the R line from 8 to 6 cars. This will greatly increase the cars needed to service the local stations from 71st St. CTL Ave. or 179th Street. The same thing can be said about the G line - 6 to 4.
If more 32's are available; maybe they can borrow some of those cars from the C and N lines, an additional car can be added to the E line, making it 11 cars.
What does everyone think? Is this duable?
N Broadway Line
I hadn't thought of cutting proposed V consists. They could do it with the A-B sets of R46's now on the G. It deserves merit.
I would steal equipment from the Z and M to equalize pain systemwide, and cascade R32's from Coney Island to Queens with R40's off the the Eastern Division. Cut Myrtle and Marcy as stops on the Z since those stations would still have 2 services (J, M) like most other non-skip-stop stations along the line, and with resultant reduced loads on the Z, make their consists 6 car 60 footers. And since I hear that M's from South Brooklyn aren't so crowded in the AM northbound, cut them as well to 6 cars, reverse in the PM.
Can't make the E 11 cars. All 60 foot cars are married pairs. The platforms can no longer accomodate them anyway. The TA has in the last 30 years put a lot of cinder block structures on the excess platform length.
To Joe V,
I hadn't thought of cutting proposed V consists. They could do it with the A-B sets of R46's now on the G. It deserves merit.
No. The V should be the full 8 R'46's. The R should be cut to 6 R'46's and the G cut to 4 R 46's.
"I would steal equipment from the Z and M to equalize pain systemwide, and cascade R32's from Coney Island to Queens with R40's off the the Eastern Division. Cut Myrtle and Marcy as stops on the Z since those stations would still have 2 services (J, M) like most other non-skip-stop stations along the line, and with resultant reduced loads on the Z, make their consists 6 car 60 footers. And since I hear that M's from South Brooklyn aren't so crowded in the AM northbound, cut them as well to 6 cars, reverse in the PM. "
I agree they should cut the M to only 6 cars and run the Z as an express line all the way to Broadway Eastern Pkwy. That might take some of the people off the A/C lines. Meanwhile, the J and M should be local. THE J/Z would both have 8 cars.
"Can't make the E 11 cars. All 60 foot cars are married pairs. The platforms can no longer accomodate them anyway. The TA has in the last 30 years put a lot of cinder block structures on the excess platform length. "
Too bad, because I think the E would be the best candidate for this since it would be the only express along 53rd Street.
N Broadway Line
Actually, run the M/Z express stopping at Myrtle and Marcy, run the J local, while the M turns to Metropolitan at Myrtle, Z still stays exp to Eastern Pkwy. Also, either the J or Z should use Chrystie St and run to 57/6, and make the 63rd St train for QB come from Bway, {my choice the Q exp}. My preference would be the Z since it is part time. I say cut both the M and the Z to 6 cars, and use those cars partly for the Z extension I proposed, and partly to provide R40M/R42s for the N line which would be giving most if not all of their R32s to the E line so as to get some R46s off the E and onto the G if it is to be extended. Meanwhile, all cars with R68s get left alone. Any extra cars not needed then go to the C in an attempt to make 10 car rush hour trains.
The singles from the # 7 line , the redbirds due to fly south forever,
have the parts necessary to allow the E to run 11 car trains! Create enough three car sets to be joined with the married pairs. The 11 car consists are do-able . So would 5 and 7 and 9 car sets! So some runs could be cut from an 8 car set to a 7 instead of a 6 car set. The spread of cars could be a little more equitable or less traumatic.
BRING BACK THE SINGLES OR GO WITH TRIPLES!
avid
Two problems:
1) The Redbirds would need threshold plates and skirts, which would be OK for the G, but would be far more a danger for a cattle train like the E.
2) No AC.
I like my original idea best because it's just as effective and its very simple: omit Myrtle and Marcy stops on Z, cut to 6 cars. It saves 14 cars, J & M is unaffected, Z might save a minute, which wouldn't require re-doing the schedules or disrupting travel patterns.
If the M goes express, both southbound J & Z's are potentially blocked every time an M goes southbound. Now, none are so affected, and all 3 flow pretty well thru Marcy.
Making the Z a Broadway Express would have J people transferring to it at Eastern Parkway defeating the purpose of cutting to 6 cars.
The K train connection up 6th Avenue would not have sufficient ridership to justify a thru service and would disrupt more people heading to Nassau Street, which is why it came off in the first place.
The J and Z shouldn't be thought of as seperate lines. Running one express and the other local after ENY impacts negatively on those stations east of ENY which are only serviced by the J.
"Running one express and the other local after ENY impacts negatively on those stations east of ENY which are only serviced by the J."
I feel providing a Z express will benefit passengers greatly! It will remove some of the passengers off the A line who think they are getting a faster ride.
Meanwhile, I don't know what you mean passengers will be affected by service east of Eastern Pkwy. My plan would be to continue skip stop service after Eastern Parkway. How is that affecting passengers?
N Broadway Line
Are you assuming J local Marcy-ENY and the M/Z exp Myrtle-Marcy? Because not only will the M be held up or J/Z be held up because the PM rush M train has to cross all three tracks, but now the J or Z will have an extra hold up in the AM rush because they have to merge before Myrtle.
"omit Myrtle and Marcy stops on Z, cut to 6 cars."
Are you certain it won't get caught up to a J? Also, at Myrtle that hinders riders from Metropolitan to getting to an express. They'll have one instead of 2. What difference does it make if the Z skips two stops anyway? It would be very interesting to see all of this put on a map without confusing anyone.
"If the M goes express, both southbound J & Z's are potentially blocked every time an M goes southbound."
So? With the M as a local it cuts off the J/Z express coming back when heading for Metro. Also, who says they have to wait for the M? Let the M wait, and that way if the the other train that was going to wait was a J local, they get a guaranteed transfer to the express.
"Making the Z a Broadway Express would have J people transferring to it at Eastern Parkway defeating the purpose of cutting to 6 cars."
Only if it is there, which it won't be, as they're sent out evenly from Jamaica and they make the same amount of stops give or take one. People will look for it and see that it isn't there, making them run back to the J. They'd take it to Myrtle b/c then they get a shorter wait as the oncoming Z is closer, and the M exp may come.
"The K train connection up 6th Avenue would not have sufficient ridership to justify a thru service and would disrupt more people heading to Nassau Street, which is why it came off in the first place."
Who said everybody coming from the J/M/Z is heading for Nassau St? Things change over 20-30 years.
"Are you certain it won't get caught up to a J? Also, at Myrtle that hinders riders from Metropolitan to getting to an express. They'll have one instead of 2. What difference does it make if the Z skips two stops anyway? It would be very interesting to see all of this put on a map without confusing anyone. "
The J/Z crawl thru Myrtle and Marcy as it is; bypassing them won't make much of a difference. The purpose is to help unload the Z by skipping 2 stops, and cut to 6 cars, not save time.
As for M peope transferring to just the J, so ? It's not worth their while transferring to an express--they'll wait at Myrtle to save 3 local stops of 30 seconds duration each, no net time savings. Remove "Z" from Myrtle and Marcy on the map - big deal.
"With the M as a local it cuts off the J/Z express coming back when heading for Metro. Also, who says they have to wait for the M? Let the M wait, and that way if the the other train that was going to wait was a J local, they get a guaranteed transfer to the express"
Right, but why add insult to injury and have M trains cut off J & Z southbound as well ? If the M is going to sit and wait for a local J for the M to become an express, there is no point in making the M an express; it will take just as long to get to Manhattan.
"...People will look for it and see that it isn't there, making them run back to the J. They'd take it to Myrtle b/c then they get a shorter wait as the oncoming Z is closer, and the M exp may come"
Doesn't sound very customer-oriented: Run out of the J train at Eastern Parkway, run back in before the doors slam in less than 30 seconds when it is apparent the next Z is at least 5 minutes behind, go thru the drill again at Myrtle for the chance of an Z or M to save a big 90 seconds on the express track to Marcy. The express track to Marcy at that point is downgrade and spiked with timed signals.
"The J/Z crawl thru Myrtle and Marcy as it is; bypassing them won't make much of a difference. The purpose is to help unload the Z by skipping 2 stops, and cut to 6 cars, not save time."
So basically put all the pressure on the J.
"If the M is going to sit and wait for a local J for the M to become an express, there is no point in making the M an express; it will take just as long to get to Manhattan."
Right, which is evening it out instead of giving the J/Z a faster ride.
"Doesn't sound very customer-oriented: Run out of the J train at Eastern Parkway, run back in before the doors slam in less than 30 seconds when it is apparent the next Z is at least 5 minutes behind, go thru the drill again at Myrtle for the chance of an Z or M to save a big 90 seconds on the express track to Marcy. The express track to Marcy at that point is downgrade and spiked with timed signals."
So then customers should just stay on the J. The maximum time they'd lose is, what, 3 minutes in total?
"So basically put all the pressure on the J"
It is not putting ALL the pressure on the J, it is leaving 2 stations that now have 3 services with 2 instead, J and M, which would be in line with every major other stop on the line in Brooklyn and Queens.
The J and M can together handle what the Z does at those stations and thensome.
"So then customers should just stay on the J. The maximum time they'd lose is, what, 3 minutes in total?"
Now YOU want to put all the pressure on the J. Remember what the purpose of what this is all about: remove 14 cars from the Eastern Division in favor of the Queens IND. Further tinkering with J's and M's is uncalled for.
Getting back to basics, then, throwing which should run exp: the J or the M, aside, my stand then is that the Z exp, J lcl Myrtle-ENY would probably be a good idea as long as it is scheduled that the Z pass the J well in advance of Myrtle so that one doesn't end up waiting for the other when they are merging before Myrtle.
Here's a simpler idea:
Adopt the current TA plan and tell the G line riders who complain to buy cars if they can't deal with an additional walk at Court Square. This doesn't cost anything, won't require trains to be reduced in length and eliminates any problems running 3 trains on the Queens Blvd. local would entail.
At least make the G run to QB non-rush.
Why?
Middays it'd be good there, it gets a pretty good crowd from QB even 10AM-3PM weekdays, you should check around the Elmhurst/Woodhaven area, the G is treated as any other, and nobody from a local hesitates to jumping in, and a lot of people, as said before, from Rego Park, and the surrounding area, need direct service to Crosstown areas, what harm will it do to let it run to Continental middays, maybe extend the V to 179 during this time.
QB local riders can transfer to the G at 23rd. Ely from the V. Problem solved.
Middays it'd be good there, it gets a pretty good crowd from QB even 10AM-3PM weekdays, you should check around the Elmhurst/Woodhaven area, the G is treated as any other, and nobody from a local hesitates to jumping in, and a lot of people, as said before, from Rego Park, and the surrounding area, need direct service to Crosstown areas, what harm will it do to let it run to Continental middays, maybe extend the V to 179 during this time. Or, cut the G to four cars.
If the TA takes the attitude you advocate every politician and newspaper in toen would call for the resignation of every top TA/MTA official. You idea is not very customer oriented.
I don't advocate this attitude en masse. But in this situation, where the complainers make such a weak case for a massive change in the current plan, then I call for it. The subway is not a private enterprise, therefore the customer isn't always right. It's a public service which depends on taxpayer financing. Taxpayers need to know why the city will spend a lot more money running G trains past Queens Plaza, and all associated expenses that would entail, just to avoid an inconvienent walk for a small number of riders. What are you gonna tell eastern division riders who'll have to see their service cut to provide cars for the extended G line? Or Queens Blvd. riders who will see serviced slowed and snarled due to the unnecessary increase in capacity?
No. The V should be the full 8 R'46's. The R should be cut to 6 R'46's and the G cut to 4 R 46's.
6 car R trains? LOL. You must only ride the N train. Completly unfeasible.
R train is empty in Queens and Brooklyn, but packed in Manhattan, from first stop, Lex/60th to last stop, Whitehall.
>>..R train is empty in Queens and Brooklyn,..<<
Evidently, you don't ride the R in Brooklyn or Queens during the height of rush hour, do you?
I ride in both areas at around 3-4PM every day, I get a seat easily in Queens, and as you go through the '55 connection it is still fine, lower Manhattan, everybody goes out, sometimes one or two are still standing as you go through Montague to Dekalb, by Pacific nobody's standing. The other direction, I don't know.
The R is very heavily used, particularly in Bklyn. Current service is inadequate to begin with, so talks of cuts on this line is ridiculous.
Cutting cars is not cutting service Chris. Plus you will have the new W line.
N Broadway Line
Try riding the R during the morning rush in Queens. By the time the train gets to Roosevelt it's SRO and quite crowded, at QP there is much pushing and shoving on all sides as people struggle to get away from the slower 53rd St. tunnel and some people struggle to get to the 6th/8th Ave. lines.
PM Rush is not as bad around 3-4, but getting a seat at Lex is usually difficult and if you wait another hour the trains are packed just like the morning. Cutting the R to 6 cars is a ridiculous idea equal in stupidity to, say, cutting the 6 train to 6 cars.
Dan
What do you think the R will be like when the V starts ?
About the same. V ridership will draw mostly from F and former G line riders.
"About the same. V ridership will draw mostly from F and former G line riders. "
Do you really think the V will draw from the F line riders? Hmmmm. How can that be since the F is express and the new V will be local?
The E is the most likely candidate when it comes drawing passenger from former F riders. Meanwhile, the V will draw from G and R riders, which is why I say reduce the amount of cars on these two lines to compensate a local service to 179th Street.
N Broadway Line
I think the R will not change noticeably. Since the G will be a 53rd St/6th Ave line staying in Manhattan and the R will be a 60th St/Broadway line going to Brooklyn, not many of the riders will overlap and therefore everyone who used to take the R will continue to take the R. People who will take the V are those who would have taken the F to Manhattan but lived at local stations.
Dan
"I think the R will not change noticeably. "
It will change noticeably because you now have another local option.
Since the G will be a 53rd St/6th Ave line staying in Manhattan and the R will be a 60th St/Broadway line going to Brooklyn, not many of the riders will overlap and therefore everyone who used to take the R will continue to take the R. People who will take the V are those who would have taken the F to Manhattan but lived at local stations. "
You make a good point, but that depends how far a person travels up the line. For example, if someone is going to Elmhurts Avenue and above, than many passengers might prefer the E express so that they can speed up their trip. That makes much sense if you have children and have a lot of responsibilities waiting for you at home. But if you are single like me, a much slower option (the V) would be sufficient enough.
This is why I mentioned increasing the E line from 10 to 11 cars. Unfortunately, I was told that wasn't feasible, because, many stations that use to accomodate 11 cars, no longer can. The only other option is to have more train schedule for the E express than the F express. That will solve some of crush problems I expect that would occur when the F express is taken out of the 53rd Street tunnel.
N Broadway Line
>>For example, if someone is going to Elmhurts Avenue and above, than many passengers might prefer the E express so that they can speed up their trip.
Elmhurst is a local stop, so your example is slightly flawed, but let's say we take an express stop. You live near 74th St. in Jackson Heights and always take the E/F to your job which is outside of 5th/53rd. The F train is rerouted so it is no longer a viable option. You now have the choice of E express or V local. You choose E. R? Unaffected.
If you live at a local stop, you really don't need the express. Between 71st and QP the difference between local and express is something like eight minutes. Now that there will be a local service from 53rd. St. as well as express service people can choose either.
The R train is going to be unaffected for the large part. If anything it will see a mild decrease in ridership from people going to transfer to the Lexington Line but would have taken the F. F passengers to 53rd will go E or V, not R. The E train will get the short end of the stick and have ridership balloon far past capacity, leading to delays and problems through 53rd St. None of this affects the R.
Dan
"Elmhurst is a local stop, so your example is slightly flawed,"
I KNOW THAT! I also know that it's the first local stop after Roosevelt Avenue.
Please understand me. If someone is coming from 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue, if they have responsibilities waiting for them at home, they are going to choose the E and than what ever local they can get (G,R, or V).
Can the E handle the extra load is at question here, not the V. I wouldn't mine riding the V, but what about someone with children who lives above Roosevelt?
They will more likely choose the fastest option. That's just a wise decision.
N Broadway Line
Point taken. So when do we reroute the Q onto QB?
Dan
I don't know, that's what was supposed to happen in the first place. The Q'd make the perfect Hillside exp, right?
" If you live at a local stop, you really don't need the express. Between 71st and QP the difference between local and express is something like eight minutes. Now that there will be a local service from 53rd. St. as well as express service people can choose either."
If I lived on a local stop b/t Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue, I will take the V. But if I lived b/t Roosevelt Avenue and 71st Street, I will take the E to Roosevelt and than the G,R, or V line.
It just makes sense for people who have to get where they are going fast!
The E will now carry the burden of the missing F line. So I expect it to have the highest ridership increases.
Also, I must not forget to mention this, you still have to consider the fact that people can transfer from the E to the G and R lines once it gets to Queens Plaza. Plus, you also have to consider that they will be 9 running V train per hour compare to 15 running E trains per hour.
Once people notice this, they will more likely deal with an over crowded E train and transfer at Queens plaza, than to wait another few minutes.
But what is even more troubling, is that, passengers (IN THEIR RIGHT MIND) who live above Roosevelt would choose the E train and a transfer than to have to endure all those stops. That's just how people think.
N Broadway Line
"If you live at a local stop, you really don't need the express."
True. But when they are other local options at Queens Plaza, it becames an option.
"Between 71st and QP the difference between local and express is something like eight minutes. Now that there will be a local service from 53rd. St. as well as express service people can choose either."
Let talk about b/t Queens Plaza and Roosevelt. The express has a very big advange over the local, because, it takes a short route to Roosevelt Avenue. Now lets talk about Roosevelt and 71st Street. The express isn't hold up like the locals because of terminating trains trains. So the E train is a better option overall.
N Broadway Line
"What do you think the R will be like when the V starts ?" I suspect the R will be less crowded than it is now (Since you have another local line going to Manhattan). Therefore, the R should be reduce from 8 to 6 cars.
But the E will have a drastic ridership increase due to the F express moving to the 63rd Street tunnel. And the F will have a ridership decrease because it avoids the massive passenger flow on 53rd Street.
N Broadway Line
"But the E will have a drastic ridership increase due to the F express moving to the 63rd Street tunnel. And the F will have a ridership decrease because it avoids the massive passenger flow on 53rd Street."
That will be somewhat, but not entirely mitigated, on a per train basis by having the F:E ratio going from 18:12 to 15:15. That I think will cause arriving E's to more easily backup up from Parsons into Van Wyck into the 2 track stub terminal. Maybe the 3 extra AM rush E's ought to start at 179th, which is like it was when Archer first opened: express F, local R, 5 E's.
I always said 6 car Rs are no good, everybody seems to think the way they are in Bay Ridge and Forest Hills is the way they stay for the whole route.
It's packed, how? They are people standing, YES! But it's not extremely crowded. Again, with the new V line (a direct competitor unlike the G), it will steal some of those passengers from the R Broadway Line. Why not cut the cars so that both services can run to 179th Street (which will allow the F to run express all the through) instead of running a wasted empty set of cars.
As for it being packed when it gets to 59th Street. I agree. But it is 14th Street when it empties out, not whitehall street. Maybe they can run some shortruns to Whitehall street too. That will increase the amount of cars needed for both lines (179th Street).
The N might be affected by reducing the R cars. But, by the time this occurs, I heard they will be a W line. Plus, you got the Q which will fulfill some of the void too.
N Broadway Line
The V will cut somewhat into R ridership, but only from Queens.
True, but have you ever seen an R train pull into 36th St. northbound, around 8 AM on a weekday? If you have, you will understand why 450' R trains can't even be thought of.
True, but that consist is not also going to be pulling out of Continental at 8am. It will by about 930am, at which point the worst pressure is gone. They should nail down which specific consists need 8 cars, and which don't, and cut accordingly. By the time the R143's come, restore it.
How can you make 6 car R trains with only fixed 4 cars sets that equip it? Why waste the energy when no real reason exists to even do it?
They need to look high and low to scrape up every car they can to run the G to Forest Hills, and a local service to 179th until they have R143's. As for 6 car R's, the G's will fall back to 4 cars regardless, and the A-B sets of R46's will pass to the R. Busting up some more 4 cars sets into 2 car sets isn't difficult.
It could work. But it's expensive, labor intensive and completely unecessary. Ending the G at Court Sq. is the most logical thing to do. G service north of here is really uneccesary.
Court Square is operational expedient, but not customer-oriented, and when the farebox cost-recovery ratio is about 100%, they have to be respected, especially on a line that has 30% ridership growth in the last few years.
Respecting their wishes is not realistic in this case. The G cannot terminate at Queens Plaza during the week and running the G line past here is a tremendous waste of resources, since all of the people who oppose the current service plan will exit the train at Queens Plaza anyway.
G riders will have to adjust. People need to understand that. Let's discuss some more reasonable ways to address G train rider complaints, like building an enclosed transfer between Court Sq. on the G and the Court House Sq. station on the #7, giving G riders another alternative.
They are building or have built the G train-7 train connection. Also, you could tell G riders to look at the bright side, they "cut corners" by transferring at Ely and not going into Queens Plaza.
6 car Rs are out of the question. You should see them anywhere in or close to Manhattan.
Sometimes, I think I am talking to myself on this board and I am getting tired of it. What are your qualifications to say the the G can go to Continental with 4 cars? I just explained yesterday that the express to local connection at Roosevelt with all those passengers in the rush, they could not get on a 4 car train of 75 foot cars. Too many people, not enouigh train. Can we read other peoples responses please?
"they could not get on a 4 car train of 75 foot cars. Too many people, not enouigh train. "
You are forgetting that:
- the R runs at 72% of capacity
- there is NOW no V, but when there is, capacity per R and V will likely drop to 36%
Would you prefer No G to a 4 car G ?
I refer you to post #214620, the one previous to yours.
No G, if both R and V trains will be running at such a low capacity. Thanks for pointing out another reason to terminate the G at Court Sq.
There were 26 extra A car R-46's (1228 1278) when delivered. When the drawbars made permanent sets, they were set up as 13 pairs. So a 4 car set and a 2 car set make up a 6 car train.
First off:
1. You should not make the V 8 cars and the R 6 cars as long as the V terminates at 2nd av/ houston St. If it goes to Church or Smith-9th, fine, but otherwise, save the cars for the R.
2. The M does get a good deal of service between 36th in brooklyn and Fulton St. I don't know what train you guys are on, but the M has riders in the AM. Cut it down to 6 cars and it gets pretty crowded.
3. The J/Z are fine as they are. Don't change them. Myrtle av stop is a fairly heavy used stop.
ok, what about brooklyn R service? no thought to that??
Maybe they can run a skip stop service along the Queen Blvd route b/t the R and V all the way to 179th Street from Continental Ave.
N Broadway Line
The four track yard leads/turnaround area beyond Continental actually travel like a paralleling line past 75th on the lower level, then turn out to the yard near Union Tpk. There are exits to the 75th St. station.
So perhaps they could build a lower level of 75th St., with platforms on D5 and D6 (the outer tracks.) Trains would empty there, out of the way of the through service, and do the long relay to the yard portal.
The problems are if there is enough space for platforms (was just through there today, but will have to look again. There are some places where there is extra space along the wall.). Also converting the exits to passenger stairways (and that is if they lead to the upper platforms). Otherwise they'd have to bore out through the walls. This is something that could have been thought out before, and perhaps made apart of the budget years ago.
I don't think it would be feasible to build something down there
that people could call a "station". All you have is the shallow
bench wall.
Perhaps then a small passenger exit area near the emergency stair, which would be made more public usable. (brighter lights, tiles, widened if necessary). Then, the crew could make the normal :ast stop" announcement at Continental, and then pull our right away, and check the train for passengers in the layup. If they find any, they can key open or cut out and manually open one door at the exit, and walk the passenger through to that car if necessary, then the passenger would walk up to the upper level, just like if he was took the wrong train and wound up at 145 lower level instead of upper.
I always wished they could have something like this at stations like Broad St. where the emptying of a train to a relay would delay a through train.
Can't be done by August.
One picky little nitpick--It's 75th Avenue.
:-) Andrew
Clearly, MTA Chairman Kalikow asked a carefully crafted question: "can NYCT operate 30 tph or 3 services using the current operating procedures." He did not ask the NYCT how to operate 30 tph on 3 different services. He would have gotten a much different answer.
A couple of points.
Presently, the northbound (i.e. queens-, or jamaica-bound) crew
of a terminating local train at Continental stays on the train,
relays it to the southbound side, walking through the train, and
dumps it there, where the southbound crew takes over
It will take around 2 minutes for the T/O to walk the 600' more if it's composed of 75' cars. They need to have 2 T/O's, when the train leaves Continental for the relay tracks. There is no reason for the C/R to make this trip. He should stay on the platform to help empty trains, until his return trip comes back in 4+ minutes.
If your dispatcher and tower operator are good and all the crews
are clueful, you can certainly turn 30 tph at Continental provided
you don't have to clear the train of passengers
Not really. The relay tracks are stub tracks. There are the same slow movements for a relay track as for a stub terminal. We previously discussed the unusual timing for maintaining 30 tph for such operation. The same type timing would be required for the relay. It's really a stub terminal without a platform, from a timing perspective.
There is an alternative. There are 4 tracks on the lower level. The inner two are for relaying and the outer two go to the yard. However there is another diamond crossover before the outer tracks enter the yard. These tracks provide the 2nd relay. This means that each relay has to reverse only 15 tph. Still not enough time for the T/O to walk through the train but plenty of time without requiring the planning and discipline lacking in NYCT operations.
I'd suggest that layup trains discharge at Continental and then run light to Union Tpke or 179, where there is less pressure, empty the train there, and then go to Jamaica Yard via the other leg of the yard wye.
Great idea! I think the earliest point to do a relay would be Parsons-Hillside. Reversing at Union Tpk would interfere with express service to Jamaica Center
It will take around 2 minutes for the T/O to walk the 600' more if it's composed of 75' cars. They
need to have 2 T/O's, when the train leaves Continental for the relay tracks.
Yeah, that's why they generally double-end during the rush hours.
Not really. The relay tracks are stub tracks. There are the same slow movements for a relay track
as for a stub terminal. We previously discussed the unusual timing for maintaining 30 tph for such
operation. The same type timing would be required for the relay. It's really a stub terminal without
a platform, from a timing perspective.
There is an alternative. There are 4 tracks on the lower level. The inner two are for relaying and
the outer two go to the yard. However there is another diamond crossover before the outer tracks
enter the yard. These tracks provide the 2nd relay. This means that each relay has to reverse only
15 tph. Still not enough time for the T/O to walk through the train but plenty of time without
requiring the planning and discipline lacking in NYCT operations.
That "long relay" is sometimes used, usually when things get out
of whack and there is no place to put a 3rd train that comes in.
Another option, if you think a few moves ahead, is to double
up. The center tracks can hold two trains each. This can be used
to smooth out bumps in the incoming traffic, e.g. a train comes
in and discharges and there is another train right behind. The
first train goes long, to the block, you leave the switches lined
the same way and then the second train comes in on top of the first.
Great idea! I think the earliest point to do a relay would be Parsons-Hillside. Reversing at Union
Tpk would interfere with express service to Jamaica Center
Except there is no switch from D4 to D3 there, and unless I am
mistaken D4 track is not signaled for reverse running north of
Van Wyck Blvd.
And if you've already made up your mind about something (the MTA),
you can concoct any trial to prove your point.
I generally don't get involved in train routing discussions here
because the signal-to-noise ratio is especially poor for that topic.
BUT, the MTA has obviously devised a plan based on their needs
(lack of equipment, cost-justification of the tunnel to nowhere)
instead of their passengers' customers'
needs. They have also seemingly forgot about the MB flip. The
following disasters will happen nearly every rush hour:
- The reduction in TPH at Lex/53 will result in near-riot conditions
on the already overcrowded platforms and transfer passageway
- B & D trains turning on B3/B4 tracks at 34/6 will mean no place
to reroute F and V trains when a problem occurs on the local track.
Going from 63 to 57-7 isn't looking so good either with Q trains
turning in the middle there.
"And if you've already made up your mind about something (the MTA),
you can concoct any trial to prove your point."
If the assumption is correct, then your conclusion is true and logical. I can only hope that isn't the case. Time and operating experience will tell.
The V is no good, this is the status: loss of 53rd St service, two Qs ending at 57/7. Run AT LEAST one of the Qs to somewhere on QB and kill the V. Leave the F on 53rd. Q for 63rd. Turn the local Q around at Lex/63rd with the stub tracks, and let the exp Qs keep going. Let the E/Q run QB express, F/R run local. Now, you make the most of 63rd, ie running the train meant to go through it, through it. It'll be an express, popular. Which would QB prefer: E/F exp, R/V lcl, or E/Q exp, F/R lcl. This saves cars. Extra service will be 57/7 to Continental? instead of 2nd Ave to Continental? Seeing as how nothing is getting by Continental, I say run the Q all the way out to 179th, and end the F at Continental when the Q is running. If, of course, the cars freed up by the loss of the V help, run both to 179th, the Q Hillside express. I don't understand. Why did the Q lose it's position? Just because the bridge switched, that doesn't mean the Q should lose its rights to 63rd St and thereby QB. For 57/6, maybe run a shuttle to Lex/63rd or to somewhere along 6th Ave.
Lexington Avenue and 63rd is a multi level station. The provisions for Second Avenue can not be used to turn trains around.
Both sides of the bridge will be back and service running regular before 2nd Ave opens.
Now if only the upper (now unused) level of Roosevelt avenue was used. This could've been a terminal for the G.
The main problem is at Continental, with the dilema with turning trains around, and you can't turn 3 trains (G,V,R) there, no way that would work. But about sending the lines to 179st instead, the V and G can run to 179st, or the V or G. Then they could send the F on the express track all the way to 179st.
I do think the TA designed this test just so the G would fail.
There is a solution. There's so much layup space at 179st, which could handle much more than the F in my opinion.
CAR SHORTAGE
The G was going to 179 because it has the fewest cars per train and the fewest TPH, therefore the fewest cars are necessary. If it wasn't for this damned shortfall I would love to have the G and V to 179 and the F express, as well as the G and V to Church with the F express. Or the G to 71/Continental and the V or R to 179. And I agree, Roosevelt Terminal would look pretty good right now (but did it have a connection to the west?).
In any event if the MTA's plan were to go through as planned I think several E trains are to be sent to 179 (possibly express) to cover the line for direct Lex ave access.
"The G was going to 179 because it has the fewest cars per train and the fewest TPH, therefore the fewest cars are necessary."
Therefore, it should not go to 179th! Imagine the QB local stops from Continental to 179? ONLY THE G! Not only do they lose exp service, they lose Manhattan service. No, G MUST NOT GO BY CONTINENTAL. Last line considered for QB {the G}, must be considered last for 179th. If the G does go to 179, the E or F must run local, no way both are running exp. May I remind you that the E currently runs express, I assume it will be made a local?
Well then we should've gotten moving on those R143's already.
Bring them on!
Hold on here! One just came into existence only 4 months ago! The MTA has to have at least a 6 month waiting period between any major steps in a project! Remember, it took from January to August from the first 142 testing to the first passenger use.
Don't mind me, I'm just giddy with anticipation. :0)
The G should not even be considered for 179th. I support G riders, but the fact is the G was/is the last considered line for QB. No way it should go out to 179th and leave the R/V in the cold at Continental. 179th needs Manhattan service. I'm sure if you ask them if they'd rather have the G or the R/V, they would choose the latter. By R/V, I mean one of them not both.
Now if only the upper (now unused) level of Roosevelt avenue was used. This could've been a terminal for the G.
The upper Roosevelt Ave station was never used. There is no westbound connection leading into it, and even if there was, there is not enough room in there to turn a train around. Those connecting switches were never built.
--Mark
How hard/expensive would it be to add switches or extend to allow a turnaround
Adding switches is relatively cheap. Adding additional tunnel is incredibly expensive.
They could send the R's to 179th too. Hillside Avenue is now run at 40& of capacity, and will be lower when F's are cut from 18 to 12 trains per hour.
As for equipment, take a hard look at the M and the Z. The M's are underutilized from south Brooklyn in the morning. The Z does not have to stop at Myrtle Avnue nor Marcy, as there are already two services stopping there, and that is sufficient.
Cut those consists to 6 cars.
". . .lower when F's are cut from 18 to 12 trains per hour."
They are cutting down # of F trains? That brings the QB exp tracks far below capacity. Also, this sole line is serving 63rd, not to mention already the loss of trains on 53rd b/c of the transition of the F to the V. What good is 63rd now? I thought the idea was to increase service.
smoke and mirrors!
Yes, but I thought one number and typed another. They are going from 18 to 15 T.P.H. while E will go from 12 to 15.
53rd Street will get 15 E + 9 V,
63rd Street will get 18 F
63rd will get 15 F.
Why wasn't it 15-15 all along instead of today's 12-18 in E:F ratio?
Because 179th and the F in general out of Queens has far more customers, and its trains still have a higher density east of Forest Hills. With 15 E's, watch them back up out of Parsons more often.
Well now what, now that there'll be 15:15 E:F
"Because 179th and the F in general out of Queens has far more customers, and its trains still have a higher density east of Forest Hills. With 15 E's, watch them back up out of Parsons more often. "
Where did you get your facts from? With all the Buses that meet at the E train station and with a connection to the J/Z lines, it's obvious that the E has a higher passenger ratio. Do your homework sir.
N Broadway Line
"Because 179th and the F in general out of Queens has far more customers, and its trains still have a higher density east of Forest Hills. With 15 E's, watch them back up out of Parsons more often. "
Where did you get your facts from? With all the Buses that meet at the E train station and with a connection to the J/Z lines, it's obvious that the E has a higher passenger ratio. Do your homework sir.
N Broadway Line
It's not so obvious. There's plenty of buses running along Hillside Avneue dumping onto the F as well, which is why there are more F's than E's. At least at Archer, some people off the buses take the J, far more than reverse commute out to get the E.
I don't ride the J train often, so i don't know. But when i do, the trains going towards Jamaica are much fuller than trains heading towards Manhattan. Plus, the E has it own dedicated bus terminal, unlike the F line. And we can't forget the Long Island Railroad, which also contributes to the passenger flow at the E train station.
Someone mentioned this before, I don't know if there is any relevance to it, but the F serves Jamaica estates. So, that is the primary reason they are more F's than E's. Other than that, what you said doesn't make much sense to me. No offense.
N Broadway Line
Also the largest percentage of LI Bus routes (N22,22A,N24, N6 among others serves 179st F station. Only the N4 serves Jamaica Center on the E.
I have heard indirectly from Steve Dobrow that F's are denser than E's east of Forest Hills on a per train basis.
I still don't understand. I've ridden the R/G to 71st St. and have experinced delays in getting into the station with one train on the relay and one in the station and me sitting and waiting outside the station.
So there will be additional delays to that??
from what I heard from an R Motorman that I talk to on the regular. He told me about the tests yesterday how they had G's goin to 179. He told me if this suceeded, that the MTA might bring back the hillside F express?
It isn't going to happen. This is how the test should've worked to actually simulate conditions: do it on a midday weekday not a weekend, just get rid of the Q for that midday, run everything the way it would, F to 63rd, E/V to 53rd, R to 60th, G in there with 6 cars, but not that often, 6tph at the most as that's what you're getting if it works. ACTUALLY RUN THE V TO 2nd ave. No reason why it should've stopped at 57/7. That doesn't tell you anything, you have to show that it is crossing over from exp to local at Queens Plz. From 57/7, it doesn't cross over. Now, if the TA had to get it to work, they could. Run one local to 179th, another to Jamaica with the E, and turn the G at Continental. It isn't getting by there anyway, it should not be the train to go to 179th, that's being greedy. It is easier to turn the G at Continental than any other train. Also, it is MUCH easier to turn the R or V or even both at the same time at 179th than at Continental. And about complaints from 75 Av/Briarwood/Stuphin Blvd/169th about losing exp service, here's what you do: F Hillside exp, stop at 169th. E run local with the R/V which ever is decided to go out there. Stuphin Blvd is the only station left in the cold at that point, better than the whole line. At one point or another, these stations will have to be put in the same place as every other QB local station is in. There will come a time where the F won't be able to handle Eastern Queens at 179th by itself. So you walk across the platform and wait 2-3 minutes. This is what the test was: G to 179, R/V relay at Continental, what it should be is: G/V to Continental, R to 179. Much easier to turn G/V than it is R/V.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17101-2001Apr13.html
. . . appearing in Monday's Post.
C
Anyone here notice the inconsistancy in the article? The first cars are already on property but they aren't handed over to WMATA until later this week??? What does that mean?
They also copied off my fantasy transit system's color scheme. Whiteish walls with seats almost the exact same shades of blue and yellow. I envisioned this several years ago before the new cars were ordered. No yellow though and the pattern was somewhat different. Did anyone ask to use my colors????
I'm not a big fan of the person who wrote this article anyways. I've seen other articles by here that either exaggerated the truth or missed the point completely.
They should just rip out all the seats so they can make these things look like cattle cars, as this is basically what the subway has turned into lately.
I've met her and talked to her on the phone. She seems more knowledgable than it appears in the paper.
I'm not a big fan of the person who wrote this article anyways. I've seen other articles by her that either exaggerated the truth or missed the point completely.
They should just rip out all the seats so they can make these things look like cattle cars, as this is basically what the subway has turned into lately.
I think the "on the property" vs. "handed over" distinction is an important one, but not explained in the article due to sapce constraints. My understanding is that the manufacturer brings the first cars the property to test, but they don't officially "hand over the keys" until the cars have been proven to meet all the specs in the contract for delivery.
If they don't meet specs, WMATA won't accept them. It would be foolish for WMATA to accept them before they had been tested on their lines. No matter how many measurements and tests you do at the factory, you'll never know if it really meets spec until you test it on the lines it will run on. This is especially true if the contract uses language like "cars will be fully compatible with system". You don't truly know that until you try it.
Don't they do something like that with the R142s? They are tested on the TA property before they are accepted. They are technically owned by the manufacturer, not the TA, until the TA accepts them, and they must be proven to meet spec before they are accepted.
I believe that is correct.
$340 million for 192 cars.
That comes to $1.77 million per car, or $370,000 more per car than New York City is paying for the R-142. (Is the R-143 the same price as the 142?). Of course it is a bigger car; more significantly, Metro's order is smaller than New York's.
The talk about having E/F/V/R/G service all running together got me to wondering which line had/has the largest number of distinct service all operating on the same line in the same direction.
I have to think the "had" prize goes to the 4th Avenue subway in Brooklyn between 36th and Pacific, which SIX services operating simultaneously in the direction of heavy rush hour traffic from 1931 to (IIRC) 1957:
Sea Beach Express--Broadway via Bridge
West End Express--Broadway via Bridge
Fourth Avenue Express via Bridge to Nassau Street
Culver Express via Bridge to Nassau Street
Fourth Avenue Local--Broadway via Tunnel
West End Local via Tunnel to Nassau Street
Can any one beat that? What's the present most services?
I'm thinking in the past maybe Brooklyn Bridge had more, but some services didn't pass Sands Street.
Was there actually a "Fourth Avenue Express"?
On Broadway, there was 5, pre-Chrystie. (Sea Beach, West End, Brighton express and local, 4th Av local.)
CPW has 4 at rush hour (A, B, C & D); QB has 4 presently, as does 6th Av. I don't count the 1 and 9 as distinct lines, so the IRT has only 3 in Manhattan, both 7th and Lex, but 4 in Brooklyn between Franklin and Nevins.
Depending on the terminus used by a given train, the Nassau loop had the Culver, the West End local, the Jamaica line, the Myrtle express and the so-called Broadway/Brooklyn line. Except for Chambers St station, it's possible not more than any 3 of them qualified based on your definition anywhere else in the loop.
Was there actually a "Fourth Avenue Express"?
It wasn't signed that way, but it ran that way. Local stops 95th-59th,then 36th St., Pacific St., Chambers Street and return via tunnel. BMT Standards were signed simply "Express." When R27s were used on the service pre-Christie, they were signed "M-Nassau Street Express."
Depending on the terminus used by a given train, the Nassau loop had the Culver, the West End local, the Jamaica line, the Myrtle express and the so-called Broadway/Brooklyn line. Except for Chambers St station, it's possible not more than any 3 of them qualified based on your definition anywhere else in the loop.
It's a little more work to figure out the Nassau Loop, because some services only ran in one direction. Straining my memory, at rush hour:
(Northbound)
Jamaica Express
West End Local
(Southbound)
Jamaica Express
Culver Express
Fourth Avenue-Nassau Express
Brighton-Nassau Express.
The Myrtle-Chambers used the center tracks at Chambers. The Broadway-Brooklyn Local ended an Canal Street, so didn't make it into the loop.
SoundTransit was forced to admit Thursday that its current light rail project is dead. Thanks to ballooning costs and the withholding of federal funds by the Bush-controlled tranposrtation committee, the current alignment has derailed.
IMO: Tunnels are expensive. you don't build a tunnel for your first light rail line, when no one understands light rail and thus support is iffy. You build a cheap-o in-street line. Portland built the Eastside line in the middle of burnside and were so cheap they put a median and ballast in, instead of paved track. The remainder was essentially taking unused ROW along the Banfield that was already graded and plopping tracks down on it. THEN they went west and built the big freakin' tunnel through the west hills. They were smart. I have been thinking "geez, fuck the UW, build the Airport segment because it's going to carry more people, go farther, and cost less than the UW segment. How hard is this to understand?" Well apparantley Seattle's resident wuss (a.k.a. mayor) Paul Schell agrees with me. And so does Ron "everything wrong in this city is caused by racial profiling" Sims. What? Could this be? The pols figuring out a way to get light rail done RIGHT?
GASP!
Check out the article HERE
I think Sound Transit should do something. Maybe forceing Bush to give them money will do the job.
BTW - How's that fantasy website coming? I actually forgot and this post reminded me of it! I have a color map I did on my computer of fantasy light rail lines in Essex and Passaic Counties (NJ), but I don't have a color printer.
If you want, I could send you the black and white printout, and write on it the colors of the lines.
BTW the Fantasy Transit site is a dead project until the summer. Instead of having and easy quarter this SPring, I'm having a HARD quarter - three hard new classes, retaking Calculus because I got a 1.6 last quarter, and swingdancing.......
My first priority is schoolwork and after that I would rather spend time with my girlfriend and my friends than code. Only AFTER that does HTML come into place - and I don't even have enough time to socialize, let alone sit in front of a computer typing "table cellpadding="0" spacing" etc etc etc.............
Send me your shiznit anyway and I'll just collect it on my hard drive until June, when I will have all the time in the world to create a truly Bommalusch fantasy transit website......
----NoToRiUsABE
I had heard something that Seattle's residents don't want a light rail, they want an extension of their (working, profitable) monorail!
Thanks to ballooning costs and the withholding of federal funds by the Bush-controlled tranposrtation committee, the current alignment has derailed.
Of course, some of that money came from Washington (state) anyway.
Smaller federal government, that light rail would be built based on how Seattle wants it, and not how some dumbass congressmen from other states want it.
The most obvious error to me was the fact that the entire time the train was under seige, they were in an isolated tunnel, which curved slightly, while the entire stretch of local track on the Lexington line is straight, and is not as isolated.
Yah kinda have to put up with that "error" unless you want to close the Lex Line for filming at night with extra OT pay to all....
If I am correct (and somebody please fix it if I'm not) the movie was not filmed on the Lex at all. It was partly filmed in what is now the Transit Museum, and this accounts for part of the reason why the subway trains in the movie are actually "wrong way" moving with respect to the platform.
It was filmed at what is now the TA museum and the track leads to it. The "Tower" is the muesum's tower too.
Well, parts of it were filmed on the Lex. 59th St is the real McCoy, and 51st St. also appears to be correct. I did notice quite a gap between the platform and the train, though. 23rd St. is the real deal when the hijackers move the car right after power is restored. Union Square, Astor Place, Spring St., and Canal St. are also visible.
The weirdest thing of all is seeing a single subway car all by itself, since you'll never see one all by its lonesome in revenue service - not in New York, anyway.
The way things were in the 70's with so much B/O equipment it was a surprise that the single car had all the above needed to run alone, like working motors, compressor, motor generator, etc. In those days chances were good that in any single car one vital item didn't work...I'm not saying in ALL cases.
I watched it last night, maybe someone else has already said so but the white conductor who appeared to be a student was left by the black conductor who I assumed was training him. That seemed like a Hollywood error.
In the novel, Bud Carmody, the conductor, was already on his own. Mattson broke him in. The producers indeed appear to have regressed in the movie. Note how Carmody goofs at 51st St., announcing it as 59th. Then he goes on about how he's already started studying for the motorman's exam and says every care on the IRT is 72 feet long.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!
Other than the scenes at the stations, the movie was shot at the closed Court Street station (now the Transit Museum) and in the tunnels leading thereto. The 28th Street station that Mr. Blue was waiting at in the beginning of the film was a gussied up Court Street platform. It was obvious - 28th Street on the Lex has 2 side platforms with 4 tracks running through it, but the 28th Street in the film was a single island platform with 2 tracks. The other two 28th Street stops (on the west side IRT and the Broadway BMT) don't have those configurations either.
Best proof - in the scene where the train pulls out of "28th Street" just after Mr. Blue gets on, there is a brief shot of the train pulling into the tunnel. In that shot, one can see a signal on the right side of the tunnel walls. The signal is clearly an IND-type signal, which was used at Court Street from 1936 until 1946, when the station was closed.
Hello everyone who clicked on this link. Just to let you know, I'm only making one post of the following message for both SubTalk and BusTalk, to make life easier for me in creating one version. If you wish to reply, I just want to remind you that BusTalk handles and passwords are valid on SubTalk. I measured the text file version of this message at 10,374 bytes, just to give you fair warning about the length of this post.
As some of you may or may not know, this past week, my mom, her mom, and I went to Washington, DC for spring break. We went by Amtrak--and sat in cars in the 82000 series--in both directions. We left Monday morning on train 95, which left NYP on track 15. There was an LIRR train across the platform by the time we left. I noticed two stations under construction while passing through New Jersey. One looked to be in the middle of nowhere, and the other was adjacent to the Newark Airport monorail tracks. I saw plenty of PATH trains between Harrison and south of Newark. The train passed many NJT trains going back towards NWK. Once the train got to Philadelphia, I saw a couple of Acela Express trains sitting on the tracks near the one this train was passing on. I heard an announcement from another member of the train crew that we were not on train 95, as it said on the departure board at NYP (not to mention the announcement leaving NYP), but on train 195, and that this was an Acela regional train. The train was made of regular single level coaches, and there was an Acela-related magazine in the seat back, and the conductors were wearing hats with the Acela logo, but I just didn't make any association between a regular Amtrak Northeast Direct train and Acela. I got a chance to look at the consist in front of the car I was sitting in (#82074, IIRC. It was the 6th car of the train.) when the train was making a turn. It was being pulled by two electric locomotives (no HHP-8's though), and there were nine cars on the train: 7 regular coaches, the cafe car, and a business class coach as the 9th car. (I got this info from the train crew via an announcement leaving NYP). Not only that, but the first 3 cars will be cut from the train and a diesel locomotive be attached to the other end for the remainder of the train's trip to Newport News.
Still in Philly, I saw a trolley yard, containing some PCC cars and mostly LRV's. I saw a few Septa trains between Philly and Wilmington.
At Baltimore, someone in the 9th car required medical assistance and needed to be removed from the train, and it took about 25 minutes to get the person(s) removed.
Finally, at New Carrollton, things start to get interesting. The first sign that the train was approaching the New Carrollton station: Metrorail cars by the dozen, in a yard north of the New Carrollton station. I saw many Orange line trains here.
Also between this stretch of the line (between New Carrollton and Union Station), I saw dozens of buses, including some Fishbowls and RTS buses.
On the final approach to Union Station, I saw another yard, and a Red line train passing by, headed towards Silver Spring. The train crew had advised us about low platforms at Union Station, which there were.
It was unusually warm when we got to Union Station, with the temperature inching up towards 90°. After peeling off unnecessary layers of clothing, we walked to the hotel which was not far from the station.
I took many pictures of buses while I was down there.
I was also recording some sounds from the Metro. I recorded the following trips: Gallery Place to Pentagon City on the Yellow line, Pentagon City to Farragut West on the Blue line, and Gallery Place to Union Station on the Red line. I was also able to record a train leaving the Gallery Place station. The weird thing was it was a train of 1000 and 3000 series cars. How often does that happen?
Also, I've noticed on the 1000's, that some lights blink as the train stops. Why is that?
I also noticed the recent "Doors opening" and "Doors closing [ding-dong] Please stand clear of the doors [repeated zero or more times] thank you." The bell sounds like a healthy R46 doorbell. The cars don't have unique doorbells now. I also picked up many items of Metrorail paraphernalia, including the most recent pocket guide ("The Four Seasons of Metrorail's Farecard"? I kinda liked "Metro on the Potomac" (the one with the Lincoln Memorial, the Washington Monument, and the Capitol, and a Metro train with people on the platform) better.), "Your Guide to Metro," which includes a scale drawing of the Metro system, and a bus map of the downtown area, "A Metro Guide to the Nation's Capital," "Your guide to Metro's Fares & Passes," "Metrorail Safety," and Saturday-Sunday and Weekday midday timetables.
I also noticed something else that wasn't there the last time I rode the Metro. There were signs hanging from the platform pylons indicating when the next train is coming into the station, how many cars the train had, and where it was going. An example is the following.
RED LINE
GLENMONT
6 CAR TRAIN
2 MINUTES
However, the signs for the other track were stuck on
NEXT TRAIN
NOT IN SERVICE
PLEASE STEP BACK
The train coming in was in service. It was a Red line train to Shady Grove.
Wouldn't a system like this be great in New York? :-)
I was witness to a couple of freight trains while I was there. I saw one on the overpass near 7th and Maryland SW (near the entrance to the L'Enfant Plaza Metrorail station. It was still passing the VRE station as we were descending the escalators), and another on a DC-bound Yellow line train above the Potomac River.
Columbus Circle was a good place to get bus pictures. According to the map, routes 91, 96, 97, D2, D4, D8, and X8 stop by there. I saw a Flxible there. It had "0097" on the rear sign. I also saw a Flx with "-54/" on the route sign. I didn't see any route called negative 54 on the map, but I did see 54. I also saw a NABI on 7th and H Streets in Chinatown (or what passes for it in DC) with the route "X-2" displayed, while another NABI I saw had "X2" for the route.
I also saw two buses on 10th Street behind the Museum of Natural History silently arguing over what time of day it was, about 5:30 PM. One said "GOOD AFTERNOON," and the other said "GOOD EVENING." They might disagree on the time of day, but they both agreed on one thing: they were both "NOT IN SERVICE".
I saw a northbound 4-car Yellow line train at Gallery Place. The flipdot sign had the word "SPECIAL" on it. The sign cleared by the time it left the station.
While we were eating in the cafeteria in the National Air and Space Museum, I saw an RTS bus make a left turn from Independence Avenue to 4th Street. It had a green stripe down the middle, and the number I saw was 101. I don't remember the operator of the bus, but it's kinda weird seeing an RTS in DC nowadays, with everything being served by Orions, Flxibles and articulated buses, so I thought I'd mention it here.
We left DC on Friday, and we got on train 184, which was on track 15 at Union Station. This train was 6 cars long, with the cafe car at the end. The train was crowded, and I didn't get a window seat at first. Why they put this train on one of the shorter tracks I'll never know. Once the train was near the bus yards, I found a window and knelt by it. I stayed there until the train passed the Metrorail yard north of New Carrollton. The woman who I was sitting next to when the train left Union Station offered to switch seats with me, which we did as I thanked her. She got off in Philadelphia. I missed a grand opportunity to get a picture of an MTA LRV at Baltimore Penn Station. A MARC train got in the way. I got a picture of the Philadelphia trolley yard I mentioned earlier, and some pictures of PATH trains, including one of a train entering the Harrison station.
At the New Carrollton station, it was CROWDED! People were actually standing. One lady asked a conductor why there weren't any seats available. The conductor replied that it was a holiday weekend and everyone was taking the train. (Why not make the train longer? Track 15 at Union Station is a short track. Why not put the train on another track? I don't know.)
An interesting story at the Aberdeen, MD station. An announcement was made that people who wanted to get off at Aberdeen needed to be between the first and second cars because of the low platform and stairs needed to be extended. At this stime, we were in another 82000 series car (IIRC, 82022), and it was the second car of the train. Anyway, the Aberdeen station came, and where did the train stop? About two car lengths beyond where it was supposed to. The train had to back up to get the first car to platform (Those HHP-8's are some powerful locomotives, aren't they?).
Here's something I noticed while passing MARC stations. Each station had a set of signs after the platform end. The sign was blue, had the MARC logo on it, and had a number. The order of the numbers is as follows: 1, 11, 3, 4. In NJT territory, there were red and yellow poles with the car lengths on them. Can anyone explain these systems to me?
As the train left the Metropark station, the reflection from the buildings aided in the figuring out what was in front of 82022. It was another car, and an HHP-8.
We arrived in Penn Station on track 11. If the train had arrived on tracks 13-16, we could have ascended directly to the LIRR level to get to the subway. Nope, it had to be track 11.
Also, if all the cars on the train are in the 82000 series, and being pulled by an HHP-8, would there be automated announcements on the train, instead of the LED signs displaying ads for Acela, Quicktrak, Railfone, and other services, in addition to telling passengers where the exits are and which end the restrooms are located?
Anyway, that's my story.
Still in Philly, I saw a trolley yard, containing some PCC cars and mostly LRV's.
That's Elmwood depot.
Hope you enjoyed your trip to DC. Those platform signs are relatively new. The GM RTS and fishbolws (in Landover) were withdrawn from service last year. There is another place (visible from the north end of the platform at Fort Totten station that WMATA stores buses that have been withdrawn from revenue service.
I also noticed the recent "Doors opening" and "Doors closing [ding-dong] Please stand clear of the doors [repeated zero or more times] thank you." The bell sounds like a healthy R46 doorbell. The cars don't have unique doorbells now.
Yeah, the Rohr trains and the Breda trains used to have different sounding closing bells, but nowadays I've noticed that the bells sound exactly the same.
OK. I will comment in italics, I am only responding to the DC portion of the trip, not amtrak.
Finally, at New Carrollton, things start to get interesting. The first sign that the train was approaching the New Carrollton station:
Metrorail cars by the dozen, in a yard north of the New Carrollton station. I saw many Orange line trains here.
Also between this stretch of the line (between New Carrollton and Union Station), I saw dozens of buses, including some
Fishbowls and RTS buses.
I think your are describing the Landover MetroBus Division
On the final approach to Union Station, I saw another yard, and a Red line train passing by, headed towards Silver Spring. The
train crew had advised us about low platforms at Union Station, which there were.
Brentwood Rail Yard is waht you saw
It was unusually warm when we got to Union Station, with the temperature inching up towards 90°. After peeling off
unnecessary layers of clothing, we walked to the hotel which was not far from the station.
I took many pictures of buses while I was down there.
I was also recording some sounds from the Metro. I recorded the following trips: Gallery Place to Pentagon City on the Yellow
line, Pentagon City to Farragut West on the Blue line, and Gallery Place to Union Station on the Red line. I was also able to
record a train leaving the Gallery Place station. The weird thing was it was a train of 1000 and 3000 series cars. How often
does that happen?
The mixed trains happens every so often but on yellow/green, it is very rare. What line was the mixed consist? Are the sounds online? I need to record the WMATA trains for myself someday...
Also, I've noticed on the 1000's, that some lights blink as the train stops. Why is that?
Something to do with the brakes
I also noticed the recent "Doors opening" and "Doors closing [ding-dong] Please stand clear of the doors [repeated zero or
more times] thank you." The bell sounds like a healthy R46 doorbell. The cars don't have unique doorbells now.
The unique doorbells was a LONG time ago. It has been 4 or 5 years since I heard the old chimes
I also picked
up many items of Metrorail paraphernalia, including the most recent pocket guide ("The Four Seasons of Metrorail's Farecard"?
I kinda liked "Metro on the Potomac" (the one with the Lincoln Memorial, the Washington Monument, and the Capitol, and a
Metro train with people on the platform) better.), "Your Guide to Metro," which includes a scale drawing of the Metro system,
and a bus map of the downtown area, "A Metro Guide to the Nation's Capital," "Your guide to Metro's Fares & Passes,"
"Metrorail Safety," and Saturday-Sunday and Weekday midday timetables.
I also noticed something else that wasn't there the last time I rode the Metro. There were signs hanging from the platform pylons
indicating when the next train is coming into the station, how many cars the train had, and where it was going. An example is the
following.
RED LINE
GLENMONT
6 CAR TRAIN
2 MINUTES
However, the signs for the other track were stuck on
NEXT TRAIN
NOT IN SERVICE
PLEASE STEP BACK
The train coming in was in service. It was a Red line train to Shady Grove.
Article in the Washington Post 2 weeks ago about this. These signs are 4 years late anyway. Lots of problems with them but when they work, its great.
Wouldn't a system like this be great in New York? :-)
I was witness to a couple of freight trains while I was there. I saw one on the overpass near 7th and Maryland SW (near the
entrance to the L'Enfant Plaza Metrorail station. It was still passing the VRE station as we were descending the escalators), and
another on a DC-bound Yellow line train above the Potomac River.
Columbus Circle was a good place to get bus pictures. According to the map, routes 91, 96, 97, D2, D4, D8, and X8 stop by
there. I saw a Flxible there. It had "0097" on the rear sign. I also saw a Flx with "-54/" on the route sign. I didn't see any route
called negative 54 on the map, but I did see 54. I also saw a NABI on 7th and H Streets in Chinatown (or what passes for it in
DC) with the route "X-2" displayed, while another NABI I saw had "X2" for the route.
The bus signs are programmed with a route number and then a destination. The drivers can do anything. I've seen J7 FEDERAL TRIANGLE instead of N7 and T3 ROCKVILLE instead of T2. I also saw K6 JEFF DAVIS & SOUTH GLEBE. The K6 goes to White Oak while Davis and Glebe are in Arlington, IIRC.
I also saw two buses on 10th Street behind the Museum of Natural History silently arguing over what time of day it was, about
5:30 PM. One said "GOOD AFTERNOON," and the other said "GOOD EVENING." They might disagree on the time of
day, but they both agreed on one thing: they were both "NOT IN SERVICE".
PR signs.
I saw a northbound 4-car Yellow line train at Gallery Place. The flipdot sign had the word "SPECIAL" on it. The sign cleared
by the time it left the station.
I have never seen that. It probably cleared so it could be changed to no passengers for Mount Vernon Square is the last stop.
While we were eating in the cafeteria in the National Air and Space Museum, I saw an RTS bus make a left turn from
Independence Avenue to 4th Street. It had a green stripe down the middle, and the number I saw was 101. I don't remember
the operator of the bus, but it's kinda weird seeing an RTS in DC nowadays, with everything being served by Orions, Flxibles
and articulated buses, so I thought I'd mention it here.
Hm, I don't know.
I hope you enjoyed yourself here!
[What line was the mixed consist?]
Red.
[Are the sounds online?]
They are now online at my site. (Click here for the direct link, click here for the weakest link. Goodbye!)
Correction:
Check out this link instead for the independent Transit Sounds Millennium site.
[What line was the mixed consist?]
Red.
[Are the sounds online?]
They are now online at my site. (Click here for the direct link, click here for the weakest link. Goodbye!)
Correction:
Check out the better version at This link, which is now the strongest link. Goodbye!
[I noticed two stations under construction while passing through New Jersey. One looked to be in the middle of nowhere, and the other was adjacent to the Newark Airport monorail tracks.]
The first station is the Secaucus Transfer station, which will allow for a transfer between the Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast & Morris/Essex trains headed for New York Penn Station and the Main/Bergen and Pascack Valley lines bound for Hoboken. Secaucus is expected to be on-line by 2003.
The second station is the Newark Airport station. The station will be connected to the airport via an extension of the Newark Airport monorail. Newark Airport station is set to open by the end of the year.
I forgot to mention I saw Newark Airport monorails on the tracks by the Newark Airport rail station.
There were signs hanging from the platform pylons indicating when the next train is coming into the station, how many cars the train had, and where it was going. An example is the following...
Those signs are the best thing since sliced bread. I first saw them in San Fran (only time time I've seen them, so far) I was impressed. Every subway system should have them.
Article in Bergen Record points out that political disagreements over which of the two proposed Bergen County lines should be built first could delay construction of both.
Elsewhere in the article is mentioned that lowered expectations of HBLR first-year usage were exceeded.
Yes indeed. These achievements are tremendous. The Bergen County leg will take a while, but we've got something on the ground now, and that's cool.
2001-2002-2003 will be remembered as good years for transit, thanks to investments made years ago.
Yes. It's the biggest time since WWII, but still not as good as the prewar era.
It's good especially in NJ. But NY has Airtrain and the 63rd Connection and Wassaic.
Yes. We complain a lot, but it's good sometimes to acknowledge that good things have happened too.
Even in my neighborhood. By '02, only one station on the LIRR Port Washington branch will not be accessible to the handicapped. I don't need that accessibility, unless I'm with suitcases, but it's great that everyone who rides is offered that. I'm grateful that we have these things.
OK, back to complaining...
Which station will that be?
While it is impossible to make all subway stations accessible, there are some places where I think the MTA could have gotten away with making a station accessible when they renovated it, but didn't.
And it's a good thing that the LIRR got rid of low platforms. Low platforms don't belong on a passenger RR.
"Which station will that be? (nonADA)"
Flushing-Main Street. The geography is a bit difficult there to get a ramp or elevator in place. But engineers can be creative...
It's not as big a deal there, unless you're an LIRR inbound passenger wanting to get off there. The "7" Main Street station is fully accessible, and the Woodside station is fully ADA-accessible for both subway and LIRR, which solves a lot of problems nicely. As far as the "7" is concerned, Grand Central is getting an elevator for it, and 74th Street station is now being rebuilt for full ADA access for all lines (7-E-F-G-R).
"And it's a good thing that the LIRR got rid of low platforms. Low platforms don't belong on a passenger RR."
I couldn't agree more. Interesting contrast: LIRR lines' offer 80% of stations being accessible, and that percentage gets better every year. Even Metro-North is getting up there. In Philly, SEPTA, however, offers neither good subway nor commuter rail accessibility. For example, outside Center City and the Broad Street corridor, 18% of R6 (Norristown) stations are ADA-compliant. Even Suburban Station downtown is non-compliant (but that is changing due to a $22 million project started this year) Philly's subways are even worse (New York will have about 40 stations/468 fully ADA by '02; SEPTA has a handful.)
As far as the "7" is concerned, Grand Central is getting an elevator for it, and 74th Street station is now being rebuilt for full ADA access for all lines (7-E-F-G-R).
And Times Square.
30st station is non-compliant according to the back of the schedule. I wonder how they pulled that one off...
Anyway, I agree that most commuter rail stations should be high platform, but if the line or a particular platform (such as Jersey Ave on the main) gets very infrequent use, they may as well not bother. Plus, all trains IMHO should be capable of handling a low platform, so that in incidents where trains unexpectedly end up on the express track people can detrain without having to wait for bridge plates to be put up.
but if the line or a particular platform (such as Jersey Ave on the main) gets very infrequent use, they may as well not bother.
If you have almost all of your stations high platforms, it would make more sense to high platform even those stations then keep buying equipment with low boarding capability. You can even build a one door long high platform.
OR, close the station. Just like the LIRR did with those useless LIC line stations, and some others (like Holtsville).
30th Street station is actually compliant (but the Market-Frankford Line station is not). A lot of maps need to be corrected.
Lowered expectations, hah. The initial expectations were set outrageously high in order to smooth the allocation of funds; now that reality is set in they set the new expectations outrageously low so it will be easy to hit. Then they proclaim it a "success".
I doubt HBLR took any cars off the streets.
You can laugh all you want (but first take the blinders off your face - you might wander into the trolley tracks and get run over).
What is the difference between a black and a white bullet next to a response to a post?
The html bulleted list function uses different bullets to indicate nesting depth.
A lot pf people have expressed reservations about purchasing my book "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" due to the fact that the publisher, AmErica House, is relatively unknown. I am now pleased to report that it is available on Amazon.com (type in the title and go to alphabet search)and should be on Borders Website (and hopefully its bookstores) in a couple of weeks. Making this book widely available has been extremely difficult for let's face it, getting people other than rail fans to buy books on transit is an extremely hard sell. To those of you contemplating writing future books on transit, understand that you're going to have a real rough go of it but that if you persevere, the fact that you get to see your book in print will make all the headaches worthwhile.
Eric Dale Smith
Publish America eventually did send me the copy and their customer service (via e-mail) was pretty good.
--Mark
Will this book be available in public libraries?
I sure hope so. I've been trying to get it placed in as many libraries as possible. We shall see.
Eric D. Smith
Was off for Good Friday, so we did our customary Slant ride on the 'Q'. We hoped nothing would go wrong as it did the last five times we tried to do this: Loud, shrill Christian prosthelyzer; local service both ways for no apparent reason; unsympathetic operator keeping his door open; uncooperative passenger refusing to budge from standing with back to front window despite an abundance of seats; two employees standing at front window chatting with operator.
Everything went fine that early afternoon till DeKalb, where we sat "holding for connections" through an 'N', 'R' and 'N'. Then they announced that due to a downtown 'D' train in emergency, we were "in gap service until further notice". There was no mention of where this disabled train, but the implication was it was BEHIND us. If so, it had to have been somewhere above Columbus Circle, because a 'B' went through on the outbound express track as usual.
When we finally got to Prospect Park, the word was we'd be running local through Brighton (not Coney?), but a 'Q' running express was IMMEDIATELY BEHIND THIS TRAIN! Many suckers, including us, believed this, and proceeded to stand steaming on the platform for a half an hour while no train came at all.
When a 'D' came, we were told it would run express, Church next, but heavy pre-Sabbath crowding and lack of front window led us to decline. AFTER the doors closed, a piped-in speaker announced that this 'D' train WOULD run local, Parkside next. Someone commented that the way these "*&@#$%*& *&#holes were lying, they should become weather forecasters". Another person claimed this was the employees' revenge for having to work on Good Friday.
Five minutes later, a very crowded 'Q'. The air brakes discharged loudly in 'last-stop' style and the operator charged out the door and sprinted towards the back while several cops poured down the steps from Lincoln Road, leaving us to wonder if there was a body on the tracks, a murder or what? After several minutes of confusion, he returned, and we were told it would run express on the local track, Church next. We turned it down, allowing for one more chance before giving up. Once again there was the too-late, post-door-closing local-not-express announcement.
Persistence paid, because a virtually empty 'Q' pulled in immediately after and ran express right alongside the 'local' we turned down in time to see it go through Cortelyou WITHOUT STOPPING. More head-scratching and lurching at Newkirk until the PA on the 'local' swore it WAS a local, Avenue H next. We pulled out neck-and-neck, and-needless to say- it ran through H without stopping. After that we lost sight of it- maybe it stopped at J and M under threat of death.
We went downstairs at Sheepshead, relieved ourselves at a cooperative pizza parlor and came back to the entrance just as the street-level doors banged open and multitudes of angry-looking, cursing people poured out. The whole time- about ten minutes- we waited on the Manhattan-bound platform, that same 'Q' with an identity crisis stood
on the local track, while a 'D' pulled in on the express track. Both were still there when we left.
On the standard great express run back, I noticed that every 'Q' going by the other way was running local and every 'D' was express. It felt like 1967-86 all over again.
Whatever happened in the first place to cause all this must have really been something.
This nonsense started the night before.
On Thursday, 4/12, I caught an N at Court St. to DeKalb, to catch a D train to Avenue U, to visit my mom. As a Q came in right away, I decided to take it, figuring I could possibly catch up with a D by the time we reached Kings Highway.
When we got to Kings Highway at about 6:45PM, you guessed it - there was an empty D, which closed its doors the second ours were opening. The crowd (and I do mean crowd) from the Q and I waited for 20 minutes for the next D, watching two more Q's come during the interim.
As I was now late for dinner, I then tried to catch a B3 bus, instead of my usual walk up Ave. U. The bus was full, but not packed. The driver stopped in the middle of the street, away from the curb and before the yellow line of the bus stop, and discharged five passengers. I was one of three passengers he refused to let on, claiming there was an empty bus right behind him. Sure. I ended up walking to Nostrand anyway, without any other bus passing me.
I bet someone has got some 'splainin to do.
Just blame that piece of junk Hippo D that got stuck and created the whole mess. I rode the Q to and from Brighton for fortunately we had no problems as we left the Hippos on the local in the dust.
Was on a NWK/NYP-bound NJT train from Princeton Junction last night (Easter) around 6pm. Amtrak was having signal problems on the local track. Customers had to exit from the express track betw. the 1st & 2nd car at Rahway and Linden. Delayed us about 20 mins. into Penn.
Engineer was very apologetic, and very clear about pointing out that Amtrak's signals were the problem. "Thank you very much for your cooperation and understanding. We don't appreciate this any more than you to, folks." Also, lots of "Brakeman, Conductor, go to I-C." etc. At one point, conductor asked crew over the P-A to hand-signal outside the train, to make sure all detraining passengers had made it up to the exit-point before he gave "Two to go" to the engineer. How very 19th Century, no?
Another weird thing: crew member took both my and my wife's tickets from PJT to NYP, but only gave us one un-punched and un-ripped seat-check (if you're trevelling betw. PJT and NYP, the ticket-taker often rips the top of you seat-check in half rather than punching the zone numbers for some reason). Thought about questioning it, but figured he knew what he was doing. A few stops later, another crew-member, the conductor, I think, asked us for tickets (I guess not knowing which of us hadn't gotten a seat check). I said, "We already gave...New York Penn." "Both of yous," he said. I replied yes. This seemed to be enough for him, so he grabbed the seat-check, punched it twice, and moved on. Whew! I guess the fist guy screwed up. What do you do as an honest paying passenger when that happens and the second guy is not so lenient?
KP
That has happened to me on Metro North. I tavel GCT to New Haven. Always get a seat check but 9 times out of 10 after Stamford they collect them.
This time a conductor came through and collected all the seat checks after Stamford. When we got to Bridgeport another one came through and asked for all tickets since no one (about 5 people) in the car had any seat checks. Dumb founded looks from the others, but I stood up and told him they guy with the red hair lifted the seat checks back at Stamford. He went and checked.
Another time me and Stef were traveling, Stef fell asleep and someone stole his seat check. I did not notice it until the condutor woke him up asking for a ticket. Stef said he got on at 125th St. and the conductor said okay, he did not give him another seat check.
I guess if you are truthful up front most conductors believe you.
I used to have business in Bridgeport in the evenings, so I rode MNRR New Haven trains. I actually saw a guy swipe a sleeping guy's seat-check right in front of me. He walked down a few rows and sat down with it. It was late at night, and I was returning from Bridgeport, and there weren't a lot of people on the train. The conductor knew exactly what had happened. By the next stop, the guy was thrown off the train. Ever since that trip, when travelling by myself, on commuter trains (Amtrak, I'm not so worried, although I posted a month or so ago about my seat-check disappearing on a Keystone train) if I have any feelings that I might doze off, I hold the seat-check visible in my hand to keep it from getting swiped.
(Before anyone asks what "business" I had in Bridgeport, since we all know what the main business is there, which isn't exactly legal, I was helping out a small theatre company located in downtown Bridgeport, about 3 blocks from the transportation center. Let's just say, they never let me walk it.)
disappearing on a Keystone train) if I have any feelings that I might doze off, I hold the seat-check visible in my hand to keep it from getting swiped.
Or you just hold onto your ticket reciept.
I do that too. Can't be too careful. Besides, with unreserved trains (all Keystone trains are unreserved), you could conceivably save your ticket receipt from a previous trip and claim it was for 'this' one, since you don't have to use your unreserved tickets the same day you purchase them -- you can't verify it's a valid receipt by date. You may be able to convince them it's a valid receipt if the receipt date is the same date as the one on which you're travelling, since it's unlikely you would have ridden the same leg in the same direction twice in one day.
You may be able to convince them it's a valid receipt if the receipt date is the same date as the one on which you're travelling, since it's unlikely you would have ridden the same leg in the same direction twice in one day.
You can tell by the Conductor's punch in the stub. Each conductor has a unique punch and you can prove which conductor punched your ticket.
Oh.
You can tell by the Conductor's punch in the stub. Each conductor has a unique punch and you can prove which conductor punched your ticket.
That was true at one time but it isn't so any longer, unfortunately. Another great tradition gone. Many are still different, of course, but it's no longer a requirement, so the younger ones tend to have one of a half-dozen "standard" designs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the main business in Bridgeport? Not exactly legal, you say? Then what is it, because I am now wondering if I am risking my life by going there like I thought about doing a few times, especially when Powerball jackpots were very big. Greenwich became too much of a tourist trap, and I figured that the deeper one went into the Nutmeg State, the fewer lines one would encounter. That strategy worked out great, and got me some good railfanning to boot.
I twice was incorrectly seat-checked, once on NJT and again on LIRR. On NJT I had a ticket NYP to Rahway, the guy took it before Newark and didn't give me the seat check, but I figured it was okay since it was the second stop (express train). After Newark the conductor comes back and says "Well where do you want to go now?" I said Rahway, that's what was on the ticket! He says prove it, I whip out the other half of the round trip ticket and he continues on his way. Good thing I never buy one way.
On LIRR it was a less pleasurable experience. The conductor takes the ticket for Zone 1 (I'm at Pt. Washington) and gives me a seat check torn in the corner. I specifically inquire to the conductor wether this car platformed at Woodside (this was during the renovation where most of the platforms were closed). I think nothing of it until it is collected just before Main st. Then, the assistant conductor comes by and asks me for a ticket just after leaving Main st. I said I gave already, the other guy took it, so he brings the conductor over. He says he thought I gave him a Main st (Zone 3) ticket, and didn't believe I had given him one good for woodside. So they demanded I pay the $1.50 extra. I refused and they escorted me off at the next stop (Woodside).
Commuting through Hoboken, we see they are clearing land like they expect the space shuttle to land there.
Besides the work on the HBLR to the south (sometimes there is even measurable progress), they are also clearing land on the north side:
- removing huge water tanks (used to fill up steam engines?)
- removing an ancient rusting train shed
- removing a wheelchair ramp in the middle of nowhere
- removing piles of gravel, decaying flatbed cars, old ties, and other assorted junk
- removing various abandoned trestles over city streets
It's not obvious whether they're trying to expand the size of the yard (so they can park more trains) or are going to sell the (immensely valuable) land to developers who'll put up highrise apartments or offices.
[also, they added more track at the coal-fired power plant at the junction just west of the tunnel so it can accomodate longer coal trains]
They may very well be expanding the yard's size. The Bergen tunnel closure is looming, I think they want to minimize the number of reverse-rush moves through the tunnel to be able to use both tracks for the same direction at key time periods (like when 3 trains leave in 3 consecutive minutes). They could be building some temporary storage tracks to hold more rush hour trains. They probably won't throw up any catenary, just enough track to hold Main/Bergen/Pascack/Boonton/Bay Head trains.
The Bergen tunnel closure is looming...
What closure?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They're going to close one of the two tunnels connecting Hoboken terminal to the rest of civilization in either June or July for 14 months (the older one). I'm not sure if I correctly called it the Bergen tunnel.
OK, thanks... I hadn't heard that, or at least don't remember.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I'm not sure if I correctly called it the Bergen tunnel. "
You are correct Henry, they are called the Bergen Tunnels. Closure for some long needed structural work in the tunnel.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is the GG-1 #4877 still there or was it moved ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Still there. Hasn't moved an inch. Can be seen easily from the end of platforms 1 & 2, or observer highway, or from a train going in on a low-numbered track.
Is it going to be damaged by being out in the sun/rain/snow?
Why is NJ transit holding onto it? I'd think it would be better placed in a museum than taking up yard space.
Several months ago, there was a SubTalk post that stated the following, concerning the R62 and R68 cars:
Because these cars have been maintained so well, they will not need a general overhaul, even though some are in mid-life, and others are approaching it.
I thought the above, if obtained from an official source, would be a cool thing to add to a school paper I'm working on. The topic partially addresses the comparative success rates of the MTA in current times and Robert Moses in his time, in building their respective projects. I was actively trying to find something to say in the MTA's favor.
Not sure where to begin, I called the Transit Museum. The curator very politely referred me to the MTA's Public Affairs Office. There, after first trying to locate the information herself, a very pleasant woman gave me the number for the Division of Cars.
A woman answered the phone and demanded my full name, when I asked her my question. I also told her I was not from an organization, and was only working on a school paper. She responded by asking what organization I was from. She then asked me to hold on several times, each time with my giving her an additional identifying piece of infomration.
After putting me on hold again, she said the department was not allowed to tell me. Not believing that, I assured her that I just wanted to confirm this one little thing. After putting me on hold again, she said there was no one else in the office. Though she obviously had been consulting with someone else, she repeated that there was no one else there, and even if there was, there would be no one who could tell me anything anyway.
I tried to call the Public Affairs Office to complain, but received a different person, who said he was on another line. I did not take him up on his offer to "have someone call [me] back."
First, I do not appreciate being given the runaround. Second, as a taxpayer, I was asking a question about -my- subway cars. I plan to phrase the above more formally and submit a written complaint to the MTA - after I finish my paper.
The lady in question acted like a complete moron - and so did whoever was talking to her. Absolutely document the whole incident, and send it to Peter Kalikow, MTA Chairman - and a copy to the governor. You might even slip a note to the Daily News - if they run the story, someone from the TA will undoubtedly call you and be a lot more cooperative.
Heh. That's PRECISELY the grease it takes. :)
You know your political operations quite well.
of course she is gonna act that way. that info is not supposed to be given to any person or organization. hell! you could've been a terrorist tryin to find out where to put a bomb on one of things.
it is confidential information that know one except ta officials need to know. giving it to you or anyone one is risk of messing up their reputation that is already bashed and destroyed by the public and the media. So you shouldn't feel bad bacause she couldn't help you. she did it for the safety of her job and the company. if you were in her seat you would understand. trust me.
Technically you could find out how to plant a bomb in a subway car by coming to this site. Her withholding that info was unnecessary. One of the NYC daily newspapers has bus specifications that any Joe Schmo can get their hands on and I have yet to see a Speed type incident in
NYC.
Besides, there was no need to give him the runaround. The woman just should've told him straight up that she could or could not give him that info.
This is complete paranoid nonsense.
Bombing a subway has nothing at all to do with whether or not some types of subway car will need overhauling. If one really wanted to bomb a subway, one would just leave a bomb in a station or on a train concealed within a package like a briefcase, for example. Bringing a briefcase or backpack or something similar on board a subway train for legitimate purposes or to hide a bomb obviously doesn't depend on the type of subway car in use or if it has been rebuilt or not. The overhauling of a particular type of subway car is no factor that would ever be considered by anybody planning an act of terrorism because it simply has nothing at all to do with it.
Information of this sort pertaining to the rolling stock on any subway is generally made available to the public because most transportation authorities that I know of are ultimately responsible to the public.
This responsibility therefore requires, in all cases that I know of, them to furnish the public with information pertaining to equipment reliability, safety issues, and the financial matters of the transportation authority, all of which are pertain to the decision whether or not to overhaul subway cars. Asking for information about decisions on whether or not to overhaul subway cars is therefore a very legitimate question that deserves a proper answer instead of being denied a proper answer.
As far as I'm concerned, that lot about terrorism is total rubbish. It would be worse still if the MTA actually uses it as an excuse not to provide the public with information that they should have access to.
-Robert King
Amen,
In Houston, you can go to Metro headquarters and find out about any aspect of the system you need to know about, from the physical plant on down to route structuring.
1. anything is possible. 2. maybe other transit systems will share info like that but, mta feels that it is nobody's business but theirs. they aren't all the same on that sort. STCUM and TTC in canada wouldn't give out infor like that either
>that info is not supposed to be given to any person or organization.
I worked for a small local paper in the mid-nineties, and never had
any problems with MTA PR to give me tech info about the system.
And I'm sure the News or NY1 gets info from them, too.
Since markskan had a referral from PR, that woman should have given
information or at least give the name of the appropriate person to
contact later on.
The PR person I used to contact is now doing a TV Show.
I believe it's called "Transit, Transit".
Unfortunately, I've only seen it once.
Anyone can tell me on what day, what time, which channel
the programme is on the air?
Anyone can tell me on what day, what time, which channel
the programme is on the air?
Saturdays at 3 PM on WNYE-TV, channel 25. They repeat the same episode every week, all month. It's an hour long.
Also, some local evil incarnate cable channels carry it. The NYCT website at nyct.org/nyct has this information.
Thanks!
I think I saw it on one of the evil incarnates, while I was at a friend's house.
I'll check it out this weekend.
Thanks!
I think I saw it on one of the evil incarnates, while I was at a friend's house.
I'll check it out this weekend.
While I understand where you're coming from as far as security goes, asking if cars are going to get scheduled maintenance or not isn't exactly "national security" kind of stuff. Bristling over a question such as "how do I charge up a Hippo and roll it?" would most certainly qualify but not this one ...
You file that complaint. It sucks that those within the TA have to file a Freedom of Information Act request to get important information because there are those who are too lazy to get off their asses or don't come forward and deny you the information without the time delay. They don't know the job they were hired for. Of course, they do frequently put their foots in their mouths, like during the last incident when "generators" came on to illuminate the derailed R train at City Hall. Make sure you got her name and her pass number so you can give her her credit roll in your report.
This would be under the FOIL or Freedom Of Information Law which is the state law. FIA is the Federal law.
So you want to file a FOIL request, trust me, I know about these, see em every day.
Whoa! First - you have your facts wrong. I don't recall that statement ever being made and if it was - it was incorrect. The SMS program is a series of small to mid-range overhauls as opposed to the general overhauls of the 80s. Secondly, the mission of the division of car equipment is to provide an adequate number of safe, reliable and clean subway cars to meet the needs of the NYC transit system.
SORRY ABOUT THE INCOMPLETE POST - Here's the full post
Whoa! First - you have your facts wrong. I don't recall that statement ever being made and if it was - it was incorrect. The SMS program is a series of small to mid-range overhauls as opposed to the general overhauls of the 80s. Secondly, the mission of the division of car equipment is to provide an adequate number of safe, reliable and clean subway cars to meet the needs of the NYC transit system. The division of car equipment is not mandated to provide every train buff every bit of information he or she requests. I obviously don't know who you spoke to but I'm sure that you didn't speak to anyone who could make that statement even if it were true. The senior managers who could, would not likely field questions for a highschool paper. I would suggest that you go to an open house at Coney Island or 207th Street and ask the questions in that appropriate setting.
Your answer would have been more appropriate than the answer actually offered (assuming that the initial post was accurate; you point out it may not be).
Still, MTA is a public agency. If a high schooler (or anyone else) is motivated enough to do a research paper on the subject, MTA staff should see this as a "goodwill" opportunity. With everybody bitching and moaning and breathing down their necks, the "we're not mandated to provide every train buff with every bit of info..." is not only an unfriendly response, it is probably not the wisest way to handle the inquiry. A little customer service can go a long way to helping show MTA in a positive light.
I agree about the public relations and that's why the TA holds open houses. I also know that if the request was sent in writing, it likely would be handled more appropriately. However, I think to call an organization and expect the Chief operating Officer to drop what he's doing to answer questions from a buff is a bit presumptuous. Do you think the head of the parks deopartment might drop everything to chat about the latest beetle infestation to hit NYC. How about the head of the Sanitation Dept. talking about the guys who go around removing freon from discarded appliances. Those are public agencies too - without as many buffs and I think you'd still get blown off the same way.
Information is a valuable commodity in any organization. Even from within, it's not always easy to get up-to-date-info as evidenced by the amount of mis-information that came out about the new routes for 63rd St. and the Manhattan Bridge. I don't think the general public has any reasonable expectation that they will be given more and/or better information than the media or employees - do you? I suggest that the young person, instead of writing a 'snit' letter that will end up in a shreader, he write a thoughtful letter requesting the same info. I'm sure he or she will get an informative response.
Actually, to its credit, the MTA does not shred its complaint letters. I once wrote up a T/O who repeatedly, on different days, smoked a cigarette while operating his train. (I recognized his face each time, as he would peek out his window at my station, apparently to see if anyone noticed.)
The MTA promptly sent me a written thank-you, and promised to look into the matter. I have not seen or smelled the offender since.
I agree about the public relations and that's why the TA holds open houses. I also know that if the request was sent in writing, it likely would be handled more appropriately. However, I think to call an organization and expect the Chief operating Officer to drop what he's doing to answer questions from a buff is a bit presumptuous. Do you think the head of the parks deopartment might drop everything to chat about the latest beetle infestation to hit NYC. How about the head of the Sanitation Dept. talking about the guys who go around removing freon from discarded appliances. Those are public agencies too - without as many buffs and I think you'd still get blown off the same way.
If the people were too busy to respond properly, they could have (a) referred the caller elsewhere or (b) asked him to submit his questions in writing. But the attitude they gave is all too typical of bureaucrats.
You are assuming that the incident occurred as reported. There are at least two sides to every story and we've only heard one and it's hardly unbiased.
Yes, true.
You are assuming that the incident occurred as reported. There are at least two sides to every story and we've only heard one and it's hardly unbiased.
True. But it was my impression that the original poster* approached the TA with a reasonably open mind - in other words, he didn't call them with some preconceived notion that he'd be getting a bureaucratic runaround. He seemed quite dismayed at the treatment he received.
* = I can't remember his name, and Subtalk is running so slowly that it would take an eternity to go back to the start of the thread. I do, however, remember his posting quite well.
Hi Peter, that was me. You expressed it perfectly. All I did was politely ask a question.
I respectfully believe that Train Dude is a little defensive of the system. The incident occured exactly as I described it. Indeed, I made sure to note how politely and professionally I was treated by the Transit Museum and the Public Affairs Office.
I handed in my paper without the info this evening, no worse for wear.
I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I think the kind of "blow-off" described is appropriate as grounds for a reprimand. No, the COO does not have to come right to the phone - but the interaction described was unprofessional and inappropriate.
If you want a high school kid, who is learning, to act a certain way, you need to set the example by treating him or her the way you expect to be treated. (Actually, that goes for anyone). I am guessing that part of the reason for what happened is that the employee or supervisor will not be held accountable for his/her behavior. Of course, if it were Sheldon Silver's office calling and somebody made that mistake, you can bet there would be consequences...
Again,you are assuming that the incident occurred as reported. I suspect that the incident did not take place exactly as reported. Of course, I'm sure that since he is working towards his 2nd masters degree, he was thorough enough to have either gotten the name of the person he spoke to or at least still has the phone number. If he E-Mails either to me, I'll attempt to find out what actually happened.
I should have asked the PR person for her name, though I did not anticipate the difficulty I was about to get into. However, there was really no reason to ask for her name, as she willingly tried to be helpful. Doing so might have made her feel uncomfortable.
The Car Division person certainly was not going to give me her name.
The PR office number is (718) 243-3284. The very pleasant woman there gave me the number for the car division - (718) 243-7360. I will however pursue the complaint officially. Thanks for the offer, though.
We haven't met; are you an MTA official?
"We haven't met; are you an MTA official?"
No, we have not met and no, I am not an official of the MTA although I do have s somewhat official relationship with the NYCT. I have never kept that a secret here and in consequence, I get an average of 10 E-mails each week requesting info. However, in the past 2 weeks I've received 12 and 17 respectively. I thnk most here know that I happily share info when I have it. Since I don't have all this info on hand, for those I choose to answer seriously, it might take an hour or more of research - which should explain why I don't get to all of them. Oddly enough - nearly 1/2 are requests for info for a term paper. I must be as bibliographied as often as WorldBook.
I have one person who e-mails me twice a week requesting info. If I don't answer him that day, the next day I get second e-mail asking if I got the first one. I have one person who e-mails me demanding confidential information about collisions and derailments. However, on the whole, most are just normal people with a genuine curiosity and I try to oblige WHERE POSSIBLE. The point is we are besieged with requests for information, investigate complaints and draft responses. There are only 40-50 hours in a workweek.
As for your informatioon request, I'm assuming that you were being honest and it was actually for a term paper. However I can't see publishing info in a college level paper that can't be documented. More importantly, the information that you were seeking does not exist. I do have some first-hand knowledge about the R-68s so I can speak with some authority here. You have taken several statements made on subtalk, out of context and come to an eroneous conclusion.
You are not the first. Last year we were discussing about corrugated wheels on subtalk. I mentioned that I spoke to the wheel manufacturer about issues of weight vs strength and without exaggeration, someone E-mailed me asking for information about the Spoked wheels on the R-68s. He may have been putting me on but he became so insistant that his E-mail was blocked.
I am not going to be an apologist for the person you spoke to. The phone # was not familiar to me but tomorrow I'll find out who it was that you spoke to. Of course - you do what you have to do.
"As for your informatioon request, I'm assuming that you were being honest and it was actually for a term paper. However I
can't see publishing info in a college level paper that can't be documented. More importantly, the information that you were
seeking does not exist. I do have some first-hand knowledge about the R-68s so I can speak with some authority here. You
have taken several statements made on subtalk, out of context and come to an eroneous conclusion."
Train Dude:
It is acceptable to footnote an assertion with "Private communication with James Smith, transit consultant, 4/7/01" so long as you have a transcript or good notes about the conversation. This reference is acceptable for research papers intended for publication in peer-reviewed journals.
RonInBayside
Thanks for the information. I wish I was aware of that when I was taking transportation management at John Jay
I have one person who e-mails me demanding confidential information about collisions and derailments.
Why is information about these incidents being held confidential?
I think the answer is obvious. During the time that the investigation is on-going, some information cannot be revealed. To do so could compromise the investigation.
Fair enough. Yes, I made that assumption, but I also posted that that assumption could be wrong...Let's find out...
While I have written papers for high school, at the moment I am working on my second Master's Degree.
Regarding "appropriate setting" - I repeat that the MTA Public Affairs Office gave me the number for the MTA Division of Cars, and specifically advised me to call that particular department. The woman there who did so was very apologetic about not having the info right on hand. She was a professional publc servant, which the Car Division apparently lacks.
I am very appreciative of everyone's support. The complaint will be written.
About the complaint letter - good. Letters are always good because the recipient is forced to deal with it because they know very well that the writer may (probably is, and certainly should) be keeping a copy on file, and that it is possible that a copy of it was sent directly to other people who may be in a higher position of authority.
Out of curiousity, did you tell the Car Division person that you had been referred to them by the Public Affairs office? That might have carried some weight, but then again probably not given the attitude of whoever in the Car Division was on the other end of the phone.
-Robert King
Thanks for the back-up.
Yes, I did tell the woman at the Car Division that the Public Affairs Office had referred me there, after her initial statement about not being able to disclose information. Her response: "Have you called the Public Affairs Office?"
While I have written papers for high school, at the moment I am working on my second Master's Degree.
Forgive me for making an erroneous assumption. I think the adolescent foot-stamping might have thrown ne off. Take my advice and write a letter. You will get a response.
When I called Operations and Planning asking for subway schedules with which to program the "Ride and Seek" game I was told "we can't give that out, sorry." But the man answering my call was kind and professional, and when I told him I would be more than satisfied with an obsolete schedule (6 months to a year old), he said, "great" and a few days later, the schedules were in my mailbox!
If I sometimes seem like a TA apologist (I'm not consciously trying to be that) maybe in part it's because people at the TA patiently answered my questions, replied to my letters, and in general made me feel I was not wasting their time. I didn't always get exactly what I wanted, but I got most of what I needed, and I always thanked them for it.
It's been awhile but I got express service on the D during the weekend. You just have to have the Yankees playing at home. I saw them on 4/8 and caught and Yankee Special Express D to Brighton Beach (Express Bronx, Manhattan and Brooklyn) after the game. I've missed the Yankee specials during the winter. Lets hope they make the playoffs so the Specials will run well in to the FALL!!
Hahahhha! I was wondering when we were going to get to the Yankee Specials. With the car fleet changes due to the Manhattan Bridge Flip service, Concourse Shop will go from 276 cars to 216 cars. On weekdays, service requirements will be 192 cars so except for weekends, don't look for any Yankee Specials......
Come the flip flop, the specials will do me no good for a one seat ride. I might just take the 4 to Atlantic instead of the D 34th and switch.
IRT might be a faster ride and they will still have Yankee Extras!!
You know I have to be an old warhorse to hear this from me, but I still can't get over the fact that a large number of Broklynites are now Yankee fans. YUK!!!!!! In my youth there were areas in Brooklyn where there were NO Yankee fans and they risked life and limb if they were dumb enough to admit it. Except for the Italian neighborhoods where there were a large number of Yankee fans because of the large number of piasans on that club, the rest of the borough was pretty much berift of them. You found no Yankee fans in black neighborhoods, and the Jewish areas were overwhelmingly Dodger fans as well. Ditto for the Norwegian, German and Dutch areas. Polish Greenpoint was also heavily non Yankee as well. Well times change I guess, but I did get a rush this weekend when the Red Sox, my favorite American League team, beat the hated Yankees three out of four.
There had to be some Italian Dodger fans who rooted for Carl Furillo.
Maybe a little over half the Italians in Brooklyn were in fact Dodger rooters but the Ysnkee supporters were very close in number because of the reasons mentioned in my last post. I mind remind you that we had Roy Campanella, too. Everyone assumes he was an African-American, but he was half Italian and many of us claimed him as one of ours, too. We also had Ralph Branca, Cookie Lavagetto, Al Gionfriddo, Wayne Belardi, and Bill Antonello, just to name a few. But the Yankees had the bigger Italian names and that claimed to them much of the Italian-American loyalty even in Brooklyn. But not mine. I was one of a handful of piasanos who detested Joe DiMaggio, and I liked Yogi, Rizzuto, and Raschi even less. I liked Billy Peasano Martin not at all.
Maybe a little over half the Italians in Brooklyn were in fact Dodger rooters but the Ysnkee supporters were very close in number because of the reasons mentioned in my last post. I might remind you that we had Roy Campanella, too. Everyone assumes he was an African-American, but he was half Italian and many of us claimed him as one of ours. We also had Ralph Branca, Cookie Lavagetto, Al Gionfriddo, Wayne Belardi, and Bill Antonello, just to name a few. But the Yankees had the bigger Italian names and that claimed to them much of the Italian-American loyalty even in Brooklyn. But not mine. I was one of a handful of piasanos who detested Joe DiMaggio, and I liked Yogi, Rizzuto, and Raschi even less. I liked Billy Peasano Martin not at all.
I grew up on Staten Island >G<
Staten Island also had a large number of Dodger fans because of its proximity to Brooklyn and the fact that so many Brooklynites settled there. It was said back in the late 40's to mid 50's that Brooklyn and Staten Island was Dodger country, the Bronx and large areas of Queens were Yankee country, while Manhattan was Yankee in most white areas, Dodger in the black regions with a few Giant fans thrown in, but in lower Manhattan there were a lot of Dodger fans. The Giants had many oftheir fans in Westchester County and New Jersey. They weren't even a majority in their native Manhattan.
Wait til the Sox get to the Bronx Zoo....ANYWAY....lol..Generally speaking you might LIKE Furillo, but when you had a team with DiMag,and Yogi and the Scooter on it...NOW the Italians [especially the girls..] love the METS cause of that Pizza Guy....although Torre almost cancels that out...
Maybe the Yankee fans are trying to grab the past with Mike Mussina. I do agree with you on the point of the Red Sox having to go to Yankee Stadium this weekend. The Bosox have to show they can hold their own against the Bronx Bombers in the Yankee enclave. That will be a challenge. Strange as it might seem, this Italian-American hated the Yankees as a kid and the guys he hated the most on that team were the Italians. It killed me to see my fellow ancentral countrymen playing for a team I detested.
Fred, maybe this will be the Mets' year.
Anyone know if the there will be similar service on the "7" this season? Many times last year, Manhattan-bound trains ran express out of Shea, but not after this Saturday's game...
The way our Mets are hitting right now it would be a good idea to have nothing but express trains on the "7" so fans can get the hell out of Shea as fast as they can. What's the matter with their bats. They can't seem to hit a lick, except, of course, for Piazza.
Anyone know if the there will be similar service on the "7" this season? Many times last year, Manhattan-bound trains ran express out of Shea, but not after this Saturday's game...
This is all speculation, of course...
But if they did continue to run the (G) on Queens Blvd. together with the (E)(F) (R) and (V). What rolling stock would they be using on the (G)?
The current plan seems to be to use R68's. Would they still use those if the (G) were continuing past Court Square and onto Queens Blvd, or would they dig up some R32s and what they could find remaining of R46s?
:-) Andrew
They'd use R-68s on the G more, but they may not exceed four cars.
Forget about it. The G staying on QB is dead.
There are only a billion conditions and restrictions to obtaining points. Having read the disclaimer several times since I got my card, this question remains unanswered.
If I make a reservation on Amtrak, cancel it, and never travel, am I penalized in any way? If so, how?
Thanks, in advance.
I got my Amtrak Autotrain VIP card today with the same disclamer. I recall changing my ticket once and was penalized 75 dollars per ticket. The vehicle was not penalized. I wonder why the passenger are penalized and not the vehicle, not that I'm complaining about it.
That isn't the issue. I also don't understand about the viechle and what you were penalized.
I am worried about being penalized for not traveling. Looks like I am going to spend a year on hold with Amtrak so they can tell me what I don't want to hear.
I don't know about how it relates to Guest Rewards, but on the NEC if you make a reservation and cancel it (or just never pay for it, or refund the ticket later), nothing happens. What could they do to penalize you?
It looks like renovations at SEPTA's 30th St Regional Rail station are nearly complete. They are still testing the new train-arrival signaboard system, but other than that things look good. I was there for an hour while waiting for a delayed Amtrak train Friday evening.
A few comments / questions:
- Can someone explain why the tracks are numbered 1, 2, 5, 6, 3, 4? They just replaced all the signs and systems - why didn't they make the track numbers make sense while they were at it?
- The new LED train-arrival signboards are nice - very bright and easy to read. But they need to add the current time to the display. It doesn't help to know that a train is due at 6:00 if you have no idea what SEPTA's current service time it is! There are two rows of unused LEDs on the signboards right now - hopefully they will add a clock display soon.
- I noticed two Acela Express trainsets in the Amtrak yard. Both were in various stages of disassembly - missing nose / side panels, etc. One had SEVEN passenger cars and two engines, the other had six cars and two engines. I counted several times, because I thought all Acela Exp. trains were fixed sets with six cars each. Is seven cars common?
- Can someone explain why the tracks are numbered 1, 2, 5, 6, 3, 4? They just replaced all the signs and systems - why didn't they make the track numbers make sense while they were at it?
Tracks 1/2 are Inbound from points north (R5/6/7/8). Tracks 3/4 are Outbound for points north. Tracks 5/6 are Inbound and Outbound from points south (R1/2/3). It's better than when the tracks were numbered 1/2/1M/4M/3/4.
I guess that makes sense to SEPTA. But I think it would be smarter to number them 1-6 straight. Think about it from the average passenger's point of view:
What train am I taking? (Check the map.)
Okay, what track is it on? (Check the departures display.)
Okay, where is track X?
At that point, it would make the most sense to have the tracks numbered in order, as most people would expect. As it is now, people probably go back and forth on the concourse trying to find the right track. I'll bet if you analyzed foot traffic patterns, you'd find a notable number of people walking to one section of the councourse then back to find the right track.
The current numbering is typical of inside-the-box thinking. "Let's number the track the way it makes sense to us." (...not the customer.) The average customer / passenger has no idea which track is for which kind of service, they only know that they're taking an R1, and that's on track 6. If there are six tracks, they would look for track 6 at the end, where it should be.
I'll bet if you analyzed foot traffic patterns, you'd find a notable number of people walking to one section of the councourse then back to find the right track.
It's a very small area. All stairways to the platforms are in the same small location, so there isn't much wandering.
Haveing a timetable track number and a different layperson's track number can lead to confusion during train operations which can lead to an accident. Tracks 1,2,3,4 are through tracks that run on into the CC tunnel. Tracks 5 and 6 end at the interlocking at the east end of the station.
The tracks are very plainly labeled and for someone to miss tracks 5 and 6 like you describe they would have to be walking with their head down and not paying attention to their surroundings.
The power-six-car-power arrangement is the "standard" one, but there's no law or technical impediment (that I know of) to adding an extra trailer car between the locomotive units. And the train has more than enough power to haul them.
Does anyone know if they've been running a seven-car Acela Express in service? Or is there a seven-car train in the yard because there's a five-car train in service? (Or neither?)
WOW! Check out these MTS video previews! MY GOD! I CAN'T WAIT!
MTS Video
Sweet! That stuff is really cool. Let's hope it doesn't come with the standard problems that come with any MS program.
how many Almond joys are left? while in Phila on the Weekend, i saw one car by itself in a yard in North Phila. on Whissahickon Ave. (did i spell it correctly) before you get to Hunters Park Ave.
Did you mean Wissahickon, near Hunting Park Avenue?
yes i did mean wissahickon, near hunting park avenue.
As i stated in a post earlier, there are 8 left (was 7, but you have spotted one). SEPTA still retains 5 for work service, 606 is at The Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in washington (right outside of Pittsburgh), and 618 is at The Seashore railway Museum in Kennebunkport, Me.
Does Kennebunkport have an Penna-gauge trolley trackage ?
"Does Kennebunkport have an Penna-gauge trolley trackage ? "
No, but if they can acquire a pair of PATH Class K car trucks, that problem would be solved. Next problem, installing trolley poles on that hump back roof !
Bill "Newkirk"
Instead of installing trolley poles on it, why not install a pantograph (it should fit nicely between the first and second hump).
Our overhead wire at Seashore will not support pantographs (too much upward pressure). And third rails aren't too good an idea with tourists :-) So a pole it has to be.
And third rails aren't too good an idea with tourists :-)
They seem to be a perfectly fine idea everywhere else. The LIAR has grade crossings in dense suburban towns w/ open third rails. The SEPTA Rt. 100 has little or fencing along it's 3rd railed line. On subway lines thousands of people (tourists included!) are little more than three feet from a third rail w/ little or no supervision.
All you need is a 3/4 wooden covering, cutt out switches, some "this track is energised" lights and a release form for all the tourists to sign.
Hey Meriden Mike, have you ever _been_ to a railway museum,
Seashore or otherwise? Little kids wandering around hot track?
I don't think so. Most museums don't have the legal department
and budget of a major RR.
Well he hasn't been at a Museum, and probably won't be there anytime soon.
-Stef
Little kids wandering around hot track?
I don't think so.
There's an obvious solution for that.
What are you smoking? The Trolley Museums aren't intended to be major transportation hubs.
I can see what havoc having Third Rail would do at Branford.
-Stef
The Trolley Museums aren't intended to be major transportation hubs.
They are intended to recreate the past and let people experiance electric rail vehicles as they were when they were still in service. A subway car can't do that with a trolley pole, it needs a good, long segment of 3rd rail electrified tangent track.
[The Trolley Museums aren't intended to be major transportation hubs.]
[They are intended to recreate the past and let people experiance electric rail vehicles as they were when they were still in service. A subway car can't do that with a trolley pole, it needs a good, long
segment of 3rd rail electrified tangent track.]
From a pureist stand point I'll agree with you, but museums operate on a very small budget so compromises must be made. The "trolley" museums that have subway cars usually position one pole so they can be photographed where the pole isn't showing. For those of us that want to find some way to let the old stuff still operate there is nothing finer then a 3 car subway train running thru the weeds of Branford (last Fall we ran a Lo-V, R-9, Hi-V train, prototype it wasn't be enjoyable it was.)
BTW, we do have a High Platform including token booth & old turnstile ... I guess they could add a dummy piece of third rail just for looks.
Mr t__:^)
Mike,
I can't speak for any museum other than Seashore. But a few facts:
We don't have enough real estate, money, or volunteer power to extend our line long enough to recreate a real subway line.
Since we have an operating deficit every year, made up by donations from our members, we can't afford the insurance that would be required to have such an obvious hazard as a third rail. Having our visitors exposed to 600v would be cause for us to be cited for gross negligence. A successful lawsuit -- no, let me revise that -- even fighting a lawsuit, would shut us down.
Tourists would never sign such a release. They'd get back in their cars, and drive away. And tour buses, on which we rely heavily, would stop visiting us.
We are the Seashore Trolley Museum. The fact that we have been able to include some rapid transit, interurban, and bus vehicles in our collection -- and have them run -- is a bonus. Putting trolley poles on rapid transit trains is one of the sacrifices we are willing to make.
Given we are primarily a trolley museum, if we had third rail, we'd have to keep the trolley wire too. We don't have enough money to properly pave our driveway and do other important infrastructure improvements.
I can only conclude by suggesting you join the trolley museum of your choice, and experience these real-life issues for yourself.
I'm not saying that all the various Trolley museums should try to make themselves subway museums, but they shouldn't try to pretend that they are something they are not. If they can't support subway operations, they should stop wasting their money w/ half measures and try to focus Trollies. One of these days some wealthy subfan will buy a short line, electrify it and start running things for real, but until then the Trolley museums can help by keeping the subway cars out of the rain. Be remaining pure and not defiling these proud cars w/ trolley poles a greater sence of want can be fostered in the railfan community and hopefully this sence of want will lead someone to shell out of big bucks necessary for a subway musuem.
Mike, I'm serious that you should join a museum and become involved in its policy-setting process. While it's often frustrating, it's also very rewarding -- and you'll be helping preserve electric transportation history for future generations.
I don't think there are any in South Jersey, unless you can count the SJRR yard as a museum.
One idea I had was that you could have a 3rd rail for for use on special "Railfan" days. Had you a goodly stretch of track I'm sure that area railfans would pay a premium to ride a subway car running as it is suposted to. But as you said the limiting factor is the land and nobody can really control that.
FYI, regarding third rails I have seen kind step on and touch with their hands the MFL under-touch 3rd rail so one really has to work hard to get zapped.
I'm sure that area railfans would pay a premium to ride a subway car running as it is suposted to.
6688 at Branford "gets up there" powered by a trolley pole and I don't feel any difference when I'm riding it. It lurches the same on short stops. Acceleration is the same. If I look out the window I can't see the third rail shoe anyway. Same for R9 1689 and the Lo-V/Hi-V cars. How does one tell the difference (without looking) if a subway car is powered by 3rd rail or trolley pole? I'll bet most of us can't.
And the use of trolley wire is "authentic". The BRT ran many of its EL cars under trolley wire until the Dual System was built. Chicago did it, too, and I think they did it longer than NY. We can simply say that we are extending the BRT method of electric propulsion into the 21st Century :)
--Mark
Good one! No one can't say that a trolley pole is unrealistic when el cars from the early 1900s ran on the street with them. Aww yes, they ran on the street with overhead, not 3rd Rail, as Mike would suggest contact rail be the practical way to go.
-Stef
I think the point here is that many of us want to experience a ride on those old cars now, vs. waiting for someone with deep pockets to MAYBE come along. The Transit Museum can give you a ride on a Lo-V or a D Type set, BUT if you want a ride on the "A train" (R-4 & R-7a) or a Hi-V or a BU Gate car or a R-16, etc.
I also resemble Todds remark about preserving history. Think about what he said, I get a great deal of satisfaction out of getting dirty at a local museum. Just this week I got a e-mail from the museum asking if "any tonage" comimg up this week-end (we call our group the 3/4 Ton Crew & he had a job for us).
Mr t__:^)
Seems we're going off on a tangent with third rails vs. trolley wire. We still haven't answered the burning question. How do you mount a trolley pole on a Almond Joy car with those roof humps ? Pantographs are out.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well don't count the the shop personnel out. They'll come up with a solution....
Construct a trolley base on top of one of the humps near the end of the car and subtend it past the end of the hump as necessary, if necessary, and then go from there. I could figure this out in more detail if I had a diagram of an Almond Joy car or a set of detail photographs to work with.
-Robert King
Were the Almond Joys offered by Lionel in the early 80s? I remember seeing these cars at train stores and thinking, they bear some resemblance to the R-32s. I almost converted to O gauge just so I could run them. They sure looked nice.
Why is that difficult? It'll be up to Bill Pollman, their RT
curator, but I imagine he'll clamp a wooden plank to the top
of the hump that is closest to the line of the truck bolster
center and then mount a trolley base on top of that, with an
external downlead. Bill prefers to be very non-invasive in
mounting trolley poles. At Branford, we go for minimally invasive.
On all of our subway cars except 3662, the downlead is snaked inside
the carbody and the roof cleates are mounted with huckbolts. If
ever the cars needed to be back-converted and the poles removed, it's
just a few small weld patches and good as new.
One of the thrills of being at a trolley museum is that you can take a perfectly functional car, stick it in a field for a few years while you figure out the hardest way to do a simple thing, and then have all the fun of restoring it! (Sarcasam off.)
What do you mean?
I was poking fun at the way our local trolley museum operates. They get perfectly good streetcars then drive them down the line to the back of the museum and park them. They've been sitting since for 20 years and counting. Obviously they no longer work, and are horribly rusted out. Now those perfectly good streetcars need an extensive restoration that would have been unnecessary if they'd been properly taken care of. There are other examples of this sort of thing happening at that museum, just let me know if you want more...
-Robert King
What museum is this, one of the Canadians?
This is the Halton County Radial Railway museum. I have several pictures of the wrecked PCC cars they have at the back in my slides and prints files, but I wasn't sure if I had one on my website that I could give you the link to so you could see an example of what I'm talking about. However, it turns out that I do have one picture of a wrecked PCC car on there:
Medium size:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/images/hcrr/medium/4684_ttc_ex_louisville_kentucky_pcc.jpg
Large size:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/images/hcrr/large/4684_ttc_ex_louisville_kentucky_pcc.jpg
It doesn't look too bad in the picture, but the picture itself is nearly two years old now and the streetcar's condition continues to deteriorate. You really need to see its condition in person to see how far gone it is. That is, to the best of my knowledge, the last remaining ex Louisville PCC in existance. When the museum got it, it was in operating condition and they drove it around for a while before parking it back there and it's sat there since for 21 years and counting and now it needs a complete restoration when it worked fine when the got the thing in the first place.
If you carefully examine the left side of the picture, it will help if you use the large one, you can see a corner of the rear end of another PCC car parked behind 4684. I can't remember its number offhand, but it is a 44## multiple unit PCC. What makes it interesting is that it was never rebuilt by the TTC in the 1970s so it has its original interior. Its story is the same as 4684's, and not it is in terrible condition (4684 being parked partially behind the shed hasn't been damaged as much by the elements as the 44## A7 series PCC which is completely exposed to the weather). Right now it is being used as a storage shed to hold the interior fittings from a working ex Cleveland PCC that had to be scrapped because it deteriorated so much at the back.
Robert, you'll have to post an HTML page link on XOOM so we can see it... I'm getting the "terms of service violation" page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, they're doing that again...
I actually emailed them when I tried to put the other picture showing the rotting A7 up because of technical problems accessing my account, so I can't put in an HTML page to hold the picture at the moment but if you go to this page:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/
and scroll down, you'll find the picture immediately below the pair of pictures showing PCC 4618.
I'm sorry about the bad links; they worked fine from my computer when I checked them the first time but now I get the Terms Of Service violation business too.
-Robert King
Robert, It works now ... I came, I saw, I enjoyed ... thanks for the link.
Mr t__:^)
This is the Halton County Radial Railway museum. I have several pictures of the wrecked PCC cars they have at the back in my slides and prints files, but I wasn't sure if I had one on my website that I could give you the link to so you could see an example of what I'm talking about. However, it turns out that I do have one picture of a wrecked PCC car on there:
Medium size:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/images/hcrr/medium/4684_ttc_ex_louisville_kentucky_pcc.jpg
Large size:
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/images/hcrr/large/4684_ttc_ex_louisville_kentucky_pcc.jpg
It's hard to believe that this was a working car in reasonable condition when it arrived. This is the same story for the PCC parked to the left of 4684 (you can see a corner of it in this picture; I have others of it only, but none are scanned) too.
"Only 20 years and counting". How about 40 years? Among the biggest scrappers of vintage railway equipment today are several American trolley/transit museums, particularly in the northeast. One has to go westward to IRM for openers to find out how to do things properly. That seems to be too great a distance.
Only 20 years? Try 40 years or more at many northeastern museums! The lack of control over who restores what, combined with "The Man Who Came to Dinner" rapid transit cars overloading their precarious finances, has created an undesirable situation in musuems east of Illinois. Is anyone going to hold the subway car preservationists accountable? Don't count on it!
Oh I see. So I guess the subway car enthusiasts have to take their act somewhere else. Have you been down to Coney Island Yard lately? Doesn't it look like the pits with all these cars in a graveyard not going anywhere anytime soon? What do you suggest? Maybe we should line up all of the Various Museum's NY equipment and watch them deteriorate for laughs. A real Subway Museum exists, but it isn't evrything that it could be. I try to do something to preserve a piece of history, just to have someone say, a subway car doesn't belong to a trolley museum. I thought the general theme was elecrtic traction. Well let me tell you, at least Branford's RAPID TRANSIT equipment can roll. And I won't let anyone here say to me that the subway cars led to the downfall of these Museums. Maybe if there was money to go around perhaps the various Museums would be better off.
What Museum do you belong to anyway? Can you say these things from experience?
Perhaps we should change the heading of this thread, because the lines are being drawn. I would like to hear what the Members of the various museums have to say regarding this issue. I've had to listen to what two people have had to say, well I'm having my say. I put in my volunteer hours trying to keep a 77,000 pound monster rolling, compared to some of you who just sit and around criticize behind a computer screen. You want to see things done, do something about it!
I'll staple my soul to THIS thread then ... and Stef, keep doing what you're doing. I happen to be at that see-saw age of 50 where I have only the vaguest memories of "trolley cars" and I think they're very quaint and all and what General Motors did to them in dooming them was an EGREGIOUS corporate sin. I'm also glad to see their re-emergence as "LRV" ... in Europe, they never really went away like they did here but at the age of 50, while I can appreciate their charm and all, they were already gone by the time I attained any level of consciousness.
Folks a bit older than I have fond memories of them whereas I am ambivalent having landed in the time chain right where I did. Anyone younger than me is likely to be completely ambivalent to them having little or no personal experience with trolleys at all. When I was 3 years old, my Dad (a NYC cab driver with his own medallion) took me on the Webster Avenue (BX) trolley because they were about to tear it up and he wanted me to see one. I was unable at the time to tell it apart from any of the busses that were running and though the doors were wider, I couldn't tell a trolley from a bus.
Subway trains on the other hand were special to me, so much so that I stole a train when I was 15 with two of my friends and got away with it too. When I turned 19, went to work for the Transit Authority as a conductor and later a motorman, so subway trains are mighty personal to ME. I still love them though it's hard for me to get attached to the modern cars that look like toasters on steel wheels as compared to the hissing, groaning behemoths that earned my respect growing up as the powerful and cantankerous beasties they are. About all I can draw any local thrill from now living upstate is seeing Bombardier cars on their way to Yonkers in the middle of the night as they breeze through here on flatcars behind mighty diesels. Not quite the same.
Museums are places of memories and like I said, trolleys are quaint and all but not really a part of my own life. I have great respect for them though as predecessors to modern electric traction and would hate to see them NOT preserved and shown toddling along and enjoyed as such. But to me, subway cars give me a pumping roaring hardon. That's just me though as I suspect, others.
A big problem for trolley museums though is that many were founded just after the war and present their main attraction, trolleys in a TROLLEY type of setting, as "street transportation" and as such, the trackages are modest and the finances even more so. I can see where Ray Crapo is coming from with his viewpoint that although both have a common denominator in "electric traction" there are major differences in their mode - trolleys as street transport whereas subways really are a completely different "setting" ...
HOWEVER ... if trolley museums are to continue to almost thrive (I don't know of any that meet their financial goals) then in order to preserve the trolleys and draw newcomers, then other modes of transportation need to be preserved and displayed somehow even if subway cars cannot be practically shown in their native environment and most museums simply don't have enough track to really let subway cars "roam free" ... it'd be a sad day when museums folded owing to a lack of interest and I see that coming down the road when nobody really remembers what trolleys are/were ... and I'm right at that dividing line.
If anything, I believe that rapid transit equipment holds the promise of bridging that gap. I mean let's face it, even interest in trains in general is waning in these days of fast cars and airy-planes. And gratitude extends to BERA for even maintaining busses as part of the exhibit ... I personally *hate* busses where "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" seems to be the entire attraction. But some day, all that folks will really remember are busses ... and subway trains.
I believe BERA is doing the right thing ... I only wish that I had the time, a shorter distance to get there, and the money to help out. I have none of the three at the moment this year but I sure do hope to change all three and get my own hands dirty there. More power to ya and to hell with the purists. Let's see their checkbooks and their tool kits. :)
And I'll respond to something in the previous thread I just saw after posting this here as well since this thread seems more germaine to me to continue that thought ... SHAME on the MTA for hoarding those asbestos-laden cars. In these times of "the taxpayer is paying to store that JUNK on our tracks?" mentality, the MTA should be willing to pay the museums to come and take them away.
Having places where the riding public can take in a panorama of "from these humble beginnings comes the service you take for granted today as our customer" to "aren't you glad we aren't making you ride THESE?" one would think that the MTA would be interested in demonstrating the legacy of the NYC transit system. Since it's quite clear that the NYC Transit Museum would be the first dead body in a wave of "budget cuts" now is the time for the MTA seriously considering "handing it over to the private sector" while the treasures are still in existence.
Too much of NYC's transit legacy has already been melted down and turned into Toyotas. And all those trolley museums out there, with just a small amount of help from the MTA, could really enhance the MTA in the riding public's eyes. Much like GE volunteers do up here, the MTA *could* do some good will and PR by letting a few of the car shop guys hit some museums and do some "wow, it's been twenty years since I bent this kind of pipe before ... COOL! And I'm getting paid for it too ..." in helping to maintain the legacy with expertise while it's still on the property.
Since the MTA is now one big happy startship, they could even turn a wonderful PR opportunity into a special ride to East Haven with box lunch and sell it on a train of theirs that wouldn't have run otherwise. Or Metro-North to Poughkeepsie and across the river to the KINGSTON trolley museum to show off the proud past. So many opportunities here, so many heads up collective rectal tissue.
SHAME ON YOU, MTA ...
Did we forget to say that the Transit Authority wasn't in the railfan business? If that weren't the case, the Transit Museum Fleet would be better off. A few of the enthuiasts have to struggle to maintain a car or two.
-Stef
Precisely my thought. Maybe Court street could be turned into a relay for the G so it only need to Court Sq to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and turn over the existing NYC TM to those who "do it professionally" ... No offense to the NYC TM folks intended here at all - I worked for NYS for a good number of years and have watched some moron sausage crafter (assemblyhole or Senateslut) decide that a great place to cut a sausage would put the knife into the NYCTM first ("we shouldn't BE in this business") ... seen it too many times.
For the legacy to be passed on to ANY "trolley museum" it would take some one-time funding to perhaps purchase more ROW, add more track, perhaps if pigs flew, a second track, high level platforms, the works.
But a more practical thing is let the MTA take the asbestos out of the mainliners and then hand them off "ready to go" and stop with this "you pay to take it off the property" BS ... any of the MTA beancounters figure out how much it would take to extend the yards to cover the layups with non-revenue sitting on it? Give that wad to the museums, toss the cars on trucks or flatbeds and DELIVER them and pass the savings on to the legislature ...
Again, no offense to the official "transit museum" ... but it sure would be nice if the MTA could chalk up a large generous gift to any museum as a PR line item and use it to the hilt to justify the expense. Especially now while the legacy still exists and there's no major fare hike pressures just yet that would turn it into the slippery soap of a political hot potato. NY State and Connecticut need tourism ... this would certainly help and would be quite the feather in the cap for the MTA at the same time.
Or perhaps, I need to whiz in a bottle. Pinch me. :)
OK, third beer now, done writing code. I'll whiz in the bottle once I've finished it, OK? Heh. Just wanted to toss in a brick here - if the MTA wants to haul anything less than R-11 out here to Albany (we've got a rail siding at the bottom of our hill here, so only local trucking would be involved), I'll personally adopt an R1 through R10 here if the lack of layup is a problem at Coney. And I'll love it, and walk it, and scrape it, and paint it, and drop new breakers in the bulkhead and wire 'em up and I'll even put in fresh batteries so it lights up at night.
I've got 7 acres up here, completely surrounded by trees. I promise it won't be an eyesore, and if you guys can provide me with a quarter mile of track sections, I'll get the transformer and rectifier and rock it back and forth at might. If the MTA *really* wants to be generous and show their appreciation for inventory shrinkage and pay it directly to the Canadian Pacific Railway for the now abandoned track section between Bethlehem/New Scotland and the western limit of the Village of Voorheesville, I'll get out with my rotosander and start polishing and bonding the rails and build a tourista trap up here in Albany county if I can get NYSEG power for it. :)
Oooo! My pants are feeling MIGHTY tight. Bottle's done, and just in time. Whoops! Failed, no throttle for me tonight ... unless I'm VERY naughty. Heh.
Is that the 7-mile stretch of track you've been talking about?
I can still picture you in 1689's cab at Shore Line. They wouldn't be able to pry you out with a crowbar.:-)
Whoa! Thanks for the post....
I wish I had more to say other than the intent of a Museum, whether it be trolley or subway related, is to tell the story of electric traction. That history should be preserved in the best way possible. Mind you, you can't preserve every last subway or trolley car. Some pieces of history are unfortunately lost.
I grew up with the Subway, so Rapid Transit Cars are my personel favorites, although I have learned to appreciate Streetcars in my time at Branford. May the future generations appreciate this history as well.
-Stef
You're most welcome. As you can see, if I had the time and especially if I lived near the museum (I own this house though up here) I'd be there all the time. Next best thing I could offer would be money to pay for all the sanding, copper, replacement rectifiers and such (and although my background is in electronics, I can do electrical work and ain't afraid of 660 if the insulators prove to me that they're still good) and work now as a computer programmer for a small software company my wife and I run that's temporarily in the toilet owing to the NASDAQ morons who can be quoted, "nobody ever told us we had to make a profit" ... so money is damned tight since we ain't selling software like we used to and it's just down to the wife and I 24/7 here. I write code all night, she deals with running the company in the daytime.
But if my sitch was different, I'd be there, or in Kingston (I used to live in Rosendale and had no idea there was a trolley museum when I loved there) or somewhere where I could earn some throttle time without getting hauled off to the hoosegow. :)
And note, I said EARN. (grin)
Just a last chuckle and reassurance, SCREW the "story" ... let's RIDE! If I wanted a story, I could go to the library. That's the beauty of train museums ... let's RIDE the beach! Woohoo! I can read all the canned diatribes I want. Ain't nothing I enjoyed more than "cleared homeball, wrap it" ... it was all the anal-retentive BS and the "you ain't earned your wrenches, you're a squirt" (19 at the time who came into the "ta" at a time of MASSIVE "I'm outta here" and thus was "young white boy, we burn watermelon on your lawn" ball-busting among me and my buddies while the wigs took their turf way too seriously.
Eventually the crap drove me out of the place, not to mention being rattled to the point where I crashed a train at Stillwell, I was so rattled. So I didn't last long. I was in a bad place with the job at the time because I got along with the "wrong people" ... ya know, them "minority type individuals" ... racism never really worked well for me. While I grew up in Riverdale until I was 11 or so, I lived next to the Marble Hill PJ's later in life, then into yet other neighborhoods where racism wasn't really possible because you actually KNEW your neighbors. But at the time at Stillwell, white boy getting along with the "wrong element" was just asking for a brake pipe to be cut before you put your key in. (that's what I meant many posts ago about thinking I had been "set up") ... I was outta there like sheep through a goose though even though the car already had a "mechanical bad order" tag on it ...
So screw the story, I'm in it for the RIDE. Heh.
OK I usually keep quiet on these issues but I cant this time. I agree with both sides of this conversation to a point. I am a member of said museum, I have gotten my hands dirty but not regularly in the last 10 years, due to serving in the Navy. I was active in the 84-87 timeframe. My own personal belief is that if a car was not BUILT with a trolley pole it does not belong there. I understand to keep the place going some compromises must be made, and NY Days are very popular at Branford, which means $ for power, trackwork etc.. I for one thoroughly enjoyed running 3662 on members day. And some rapid transit cars are important to the development of rapid transit. G, 1227, 1349, 3662, 5466, 1689, & 6688 all follow the development. What should be done in my honest opinion is stabilize what is on hand before considering getting that special car that will force another car that no-one wants to work on out into the weather and eventually fall into such disrepair that it is beyind a feasable restoration. I guess any RR/trolley museum faces this problem. I hope to become more active very soon upon discharge, 830 here I come!!!!
A ha! You may be onto something. I suppose the key to getting things right, is to work on what you have. In other words, future acquisitions should be out of the question until the equipment on the Museum Property has gotten that much needed attention. I can go for that. That's what we need a new car barn for, so we can house the remaining equipment that's been sitting outside all of these years.
-Stef
Stef, it was my understanding, where I got the info from I cant remember now, that another barn is or was being looked into. There was a master plan many years ago, but I am not sure what is happening with it now.
[There was a master plan many years ago, but I am not sure what is
happening with it now.]
We can apply the chicken vs. the egg theory ... do we need a new barn or more cars first? Shoreline I think is in as good if not a little better shape that some of its' sister museums, i.e. almost all of the 100 odd cars are inside, and many of those that aren't are bagged (a tarp is covering them).
My two cents worth is ... if a unique car is about to be scrapped the museum should consider acquiring one. Now this isn't just a simple question to be answered. As stated before ...
- how much to buy ?
- how much to transport ?
- what kind of shape is it in ... is it realy worth it to try & save?
- what will they do with it when it arrives (can it run on the line with out modification, e.g guage/pantograph/etc.) ?
- is there a member/group of members who will commit to it TLC ?
- does it need to be stored inside immediately ?
If you get past these issues I say go for it. To me, a museum needs to keep growing, e.g. I hope they consider acquiring one of the Boeing LRVs even though I'm a subway kind of guy. If you are farmiliar with this trolley, it won't be an easy one to say yes to (history of mechanical/operational problems, it's very BIG, it has pantographs). But that doesn't minimize the fact that it's a important part of the history of light rail in the US. The point is Shoreline isn't a museum of trolleys only from the gay 90s and shouldn't be only a pre-WW II place either.
It's easy for me to say all this because I'm just a plain member of a couple of these museums, so other then their hitting me up for some cash I can say anything I like, well almost, after all I want to be able to play with their toys once in a while. So, please consider this in your responce.
Mr t__:^)
Boeings...
Some in Boston were retrofitted with poles to run on now abandoned sections of streetcar network that didn't have pantograph tolerable wire. Unless the pole modification was undone at a later date, that takes car of that right there. Even if the poles were removed, the remodification probably wouldn't be terribly hard as it would just be a repetition of what was done at an earlier time.
The bigger problem I can forsee with Boeings, or a CLRV, or a K car would be keeping them in operating condition. All of those 1970s vintage streetcars rely heavily on electronics in terms of static converters (taking the place of the MG set) and propulsion control (taking place of the various traditional resistance based control arrangements). I'm not sure that trolley museums have the expertise to look after such electronics. My other primary concern is the availability of electronic components meeting the required specifications in future as technology changes, for example, thyristor chopper control has fallen out of voge and more or less been replaced with IGBT based AC traction equipment so once the spare parts market for chopper control equipment dries up...
Has anybody given further thought to the preservation of streetcars/'LRV's that are highly dependent upon advanced electronic systems?
-Robert King
Steve, if you email me privately I'll be happy to discuss
our development plans.
IRM? It is a fantastic museum, but even they are having collections
management issues. Oh, you'll like this Ray, of all the railway
museums in the world, guess which is the only one to have announced
plans to preserve a "redbird" SMEE car (a married pair, in fact)?
How is IRM supposed to do that when the cars in question are laced with white stuff? Perhaps they need to sign a release taking full responsibility for that pair. Last I heard from a colleague at Branford who works for the TA (you know who he is), the TA wasn't giving any cars away. Perhaps IRM could settle for an R-33 pair that could get a light clean up? I suppose the acquisition is etched in stone?
Only time will tell.
Whoa! As a Branford member I'll take exception to that. My own interest is in streetcars - subways play second fiddle - and I'll state categorically that Branford isn't giving any preference to one mode over another. A lot of the income that a museum such as Branford has is dedicated, by the donor, to the restoration and preservation of a particular car, so at times it might appear that one area of the collection is receiving preferential treatment at the expense of another. Active members also tend to work on what interests them most - and on what they're putting their money into. So if you see a lot of subway car work being done at Branford right now, that's because folks like Stef, Thurston, BMTman, and others are out there working on what they want to work on and what they're putting money out of their own pocket into. There are a bunch of other folks who are working on streetcars too - if I was able to spend time up there I'd be working on PCC 1001 (Brooklyn) or TARS 629, or maybe North Shore 709 - the cars that mean something to me personally. I'd rather see Stef and the others working on something than not being involved, even if their interests aren't exactly the same as mine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Above meantioned BERA members also do work on the phyiscal plant. Two of the above just fixed barn doors that couldn't open without brute force. And no there wasn't any subway cars behind these doors.
That they do. I have a feeling that many of the folks here don't realize all that goes on behind the scenes in an organization such as BERA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Anon.
-Stef
Good points Mr Mouse.
Ray you need to understand that these type of museums are seeing a decline in walk ins, i.e. casual folks looking for something to do. So they need to re-invent themselves to offer the public some new reasons to stop by. Most Steam outfits have a Thomas the Tank Engine ... and you thought there was only ONE of them. At BERA we're going to get more into history from the turn of the Century on. The Trolley & early subway will be a prominent part of these "exhibits", this will give folks something to hang around to look at after the trolley ride.
We even have a trap rock quarry along the line & are thinking about a walking tour of it .... you'll need to by a ticket from us to get there.
Back to Mr. Mouse's point ... there is a dedicated group of folks working on various trolleys up there, e.g. The Street Car Named Desire is getting a lot of attention & will soon be a new car added to service. On the subway side our H&M Black Tube Car is well our her way to be added to the fleet. That's my point ... we have a number of GROUPS working cars to add and maintain them. What makes me feel good is that at BREA we seem able to add one or two cars to the fleet a year while maintaining the other. Now granted some have gotten used up & need some serious cash, but they are "stuffed & mounted" for now, i.e. not rotting away in the back lot ... I'm thinking of a Bimey car from Middletown Ct and some open bench cars. Yes we do also have some unique examples of trolleys & subways that have just sitting there for a long time, but most are in a barn now or are at least bagged (tap covered).
As Lou from Brookly just said in his post, some times we have to do double duty ... fixing a door, replacing some ties or operating a trolley when some of us would rather be working on a subway car.
As I've said before, the place gives me a great deal of personal satisfaction. This Sunday the BMTman & I worked all day on those doors, but they now open again, this will also make the Supt. happy because he wanted them working for members day.
Ray, as Stef said, if you feel so strongly about preserving the old trolleys, get involved at some level. Even joining one of the museums at the lowest level helps. You'll then get regular news letters on what they are doing. If you don't like the direction they're taking, you can then speak up at a meeting (at the annual meeting last Fall the 3/4 Ton Crew showed up in subway hats just so the trolley guys could pick us out of the crowd). If you're idea requires cash or labor they may nominate you to the committee to help implement it.
Mr t__:^)
Ray, Let me publicly apologize for my remarks to you. A friend has let me know that you are infact very much involved in the restoration of trollies. I hope we can consider each other colleagues even though I prefer to work on subway cars ?
Mr t__:^)
That would explain a lot. He's pro trolley, and anti-subway. Well, now I believe if the old timers at Branford had their way, the subway cars would be bansihed.
-Stef
You've had trouble with old people at your museum?
There are lots of old people at the one near me. Some of them are true gentlemen, but unfortunately they are a very small minority. The rest do a rather good job of encouraging younger people such as myself who may be thinking of joining not to.
Regarding the bias for/against streetcar or subway car preservation, I can see how any given person may be affected by what they grew up riding on; someone who didn't grow up riding on streetcars understandably wouldn't be as interested in them as they would be in subway cars. I tend to be middle of the road on that issue myself, having grown up with both streetcars and subways.
-Robert King
Things have been pretty good for me over at BERA, but all kidding aside, not every one of the Members is a Subway Fan. I am a Subway Fan, which is one of the reasons I joined the Museum some 3 years ago. It isn't a problem for me if you have a preference, believe that. The only thing I ever wanted was to preserve a piece of history. As much of a Rapid Transit person I may be, I too have grown to appreciate the Trolley. The Trolley is no less important than the Subway Car and vice versa. I think the point is all cars big and small need some TLC.
Well, that's that!!!
-Stef
Well, it's not exclusively a old vs. young person thing. This grandpa likes his subways, but I can think of a couple of teens at Branford that want nothing to do with them. I'm glad that they are there all full of piss & vinegar instead of doing some of the not so nice things that kids tend to do. I show them respect & greet them openly when I see them just like any of the adults there. The first time I saw one of them moving a hand brake car I got upset (you're supose to be 18 to move anything by yourself). I could see he knew what he was doing & now have come to know that they are very good about only doing "yard" moves by themselves. A third teen from the area was asked to leave when he got caught tagging a bus out in the back lot ... guess he just couldn't resist ... to bad he seemed to be a nice kid.
Mr t__:^)
Some of these "Teens" are better operators then me. They can move the cars even outside the yard but they can't move it with the public on board. I got yelled at once when a long time member (Inspector) thought I was letting one of the "teens" move the car with the public on it. When he finished his rant, I pointed out that it was a qualfied operator that just happens to look YOUNG and from the side at least like one of the teens.
I had a laugh...
There's no problem, Constantine. Subway and elevated cars will
always be at the periphery of a trolley museum's mission, not because
of personal interest or disinterest, but because of the nature of
the story that the museum is trying to tell. Same thing with
rubber-tired vehicles. Nonetheless, both have a place. The older
trolley museums were founded by trolley enthusiasts and they did
a lot of the initial hard work to get them going, but in more recent
times a lot of the volunteer labor has been supplied by those with
more of an interest in heavier rail.
Well at least we can agree on that. Thanks. You have a better insight into the Museum affairs than I do. I'd like to think that I was contibuting something to BERA, even though some folk think the subway cars don't belong there. Oh well! You can't please everyone...
-Stef
[... Same thing with rubber-tired vehicles ...]
I'm very happy to see the Curator spending a little time on our Trolley Bus. I'll bet if we can find a way to run it back & forth even for a short stretch that most of the current group of visitors for the local area would be amazed that a BUS was ever run by electric power. It sure would be a nice addition to complete electric mass transit story and we won't tell them that this example is actually from CT.
BTW, while i'm on the subject Seashore just acquired a Slope Back RTS, diesel :-( to their collection. I've seen a photo of it ... looks in mighty fine shape ! Good luck with it.
Mr t__:^)
Our local trolley museum acquired a number of electric buses from the TTC when they "mothballed" the two electric bus networks and picked up a few more from Hamilton when they abandoned (at least they were honest about what they were doing) their electric bus routes.
I think you're right: Streetcar, subway/elevated cars, and electric buses would completely cover all of the modes of electrically powered public transportation vehicles.
-Robert King
I came for the Subway cars (Gee a Low-V that runs and I can even try the handle) and I've found out about Street Cars and have never looked back. I didn't know a thing about a trolley until BERA when they said "ya want to run a subway car? Get qualified on the trolleys first".
Now I enjoy both but do lean to the heavy rail. Kinda like "Everything on a flanged wheel" for me.
I'm into anything that operates via third rail or overhead wire, but lean more towards subways - mainly because streetcars were well on their way out by the time I was born. I've ridden on PCCs in San Francisco (the J line when it still ran on Market St.) as well as trams in Rome and Amsterdam. That's it. LRVs don't count.
Since you've brought up LRVs and San Francisco, did you know that MUNI have designated 1200, a Boeing, as a historic vehicle? Some of the LRVs out there are beginning to get old...
CLRVs or Philadelphia K cars. I know it has LRV in there, at least in the case of the CLRV, but which category do you think either of those fall into? I personally think, despite the name of the thing, that CLRVs are more a streetcar, especially given their appearance and the street running environment they were designed to run in. In a way I think CLRVs like PCCs in that both were designed to include the newest technology available at the time, however some of the technology found on a CLRV, which I mentioned I feel is more of a streetcar than an LRV, can also be found on an LRV which does blur the lines a little, but then one has to remember that PCC technology (and sometimes parts from streetcars) did migrate to rapid transporation cars like some of the experiemental subway cars in New York, certainly Chicago elevated cars, and some of Boston's blue line cars.
-Robert King
I don't think that pantographs are out, besides, what if 20 years from now and seashore wants to acquire one of SEPTA's Suburban K cars (or for that matter, any of the other first-generation LRV's that came with pantographs), then they would have to tighten the overheads to use the pantographs. Eventually that day will come.
It doesn't belong there. When are the subway car owners going to build a subway museum and stop freeloading on trolley musuems, which were created for a different purpose?
You actually do make a good point there ... so anybody want to pool our money and buy the G line? :)
Yes of course, you can say all of this from behind a computer screen. Do me a favor and don't comment on what Museums should and should not be doing because you're just an armchair railfan as far as I'm concerned. When you take an active role, then you'll know why we operate the way we do.
I would prefer to see a subway car with a trolley pole rather than not seeing it preserved. The Museums have done their best to preserve the equipment in the best way that they could. Not every piece can be preserved unfortunately.
I take pride in being member of the Branford Electric Rwy Association. Even though subway cars are not running in tunnels or with 3rd Rail, at least they can run. Rapid Transit Cars along with Trolley Cars do tell a story - The Story of Electric Traction.
If I sound ticked, I am because I don't appreciate you telling me that a Museum like Branford should stop pretending to be something that it ain't, because it represents electric traction. Nuff' said.
If you want an expensive rapid transit operation, go out and raise some money and build your own line.
-Stef
One of these days some wealthy subfan will
buy a short line, electrify it and start running things for real
Oh boy, this fantasy again.
You know what the ideal setting would be for properly interpreting
NYC subway cars? Well, it would be a subway station, with tile
and incandescent bulbs and signs and all that, with some old
turnstiles, and real third rail. You could have some realistic
trains made up, like 5 or 6 R types in a row, and then have some
real, third-rail electrified trackage, either subway or elevated,
that the trains could run out over. That would be cool!
Oh wait, we have that already. I'm describing Court Street.
Except the cars there don't move.
Why not? Well, lots of reasons, but primarily the business of the
TA is providing public transportation. The costs of running
an operating museum would probably exceed the income it produces.
Plus the TA is very afraid of liability and having dead museum
trains blocking up the mainline.
As for someone starting up a private railway museum with third
rail, forget it. Got about $50 million? Most railway museums
operate at a deficit; what they recover from the farebox does not
cover the costs of operating. The rest is made up through donations,
grants and endowment income.
So, until daddy subwaybucks comes along with a large chunk of
startup money and a nice endowment (HHH), you have a handful
of operating museums that have some subway cars with poles.
At least the cars get run once in a while and the knowledge of how
to maintain them gets passed along to the next generation.
What's wrong with a pole anyway? It's a reversable modification - you can remove it and hook up the shoes again. And it puts the train in motion with what *limited* resources exist. When you have money as the limiting factor, and a small labor pool, you have to get creative to make things work.
But then, I think something would be lost if trolley museums all had welded track on concrete ties and perfect ballast. Trolley systems, more often than not, had marginal track. Ever see pictures of the Third Avenue system, with weeds growing between the tracks, and no real ballast? Trolley cars and systems were pretty much masters at low cost (civil) engineering.
They are intended to recreate the past and let people experiance electric rail vehicles as they were when they were still in service. A subway car can't do that with a trolley pole, it needs a good, long segment of 3rd rail electrified tangent track.
Absolutely; they should also only be run in trains of ten and run either underground or on an elevated structure.
Unfortunately, none of those three things are feasible. Not to mention that it's pretty cool to see an R-9 with trolley poles :).
After over five years of relaying on public transportation, taxi cabs, and/or the generosity of friends for transportation around the city, I finally took the leap and got myself a car. A dark blue 1995 Saturn SL2, to be precise.
A few observations:
Parking actually hasn't been too bad up here in Edgewater, as long as I stay west of Broadway where the housing is a bit less dense. Parking in many other parts of the city, however, is a bitch.
I forgot how nice it is to put on some good music and take off out on the open highway outside the city for a couple hours. Scenic drives from Chicago include Sheridan Road through the North Shore suburbs, and Archer Avenue out to Joliet.
I hadn't been out to Schaumburg in years. It's still every bit of the plastic wasteland of strip malls and parking lots as I remember it being. Except now it has a gargantuan IKEA store.
Lake Shore Drive on a warm spring day with the windows down is one of the best reasons to own a car in Chicago.
When you drive around on the South Side, you realize just how much of a railroad hub Chicago is when you're passing under a railroad viaduct every two blocks or so.
People on the Dan Ryan Expressway get really pissed when you drive in the left-hand express lane next to a Red Line train, including stopping at each station and opening your doors.
Can anybody recommend a good auto parts store where I can purchase marker lights and rollsigns for my car?
Of course, one of the better things about having a car is that I now may actually make it out to the IRM one of these days. This weekend is looking pretty good, in fact...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good move with the Saturn.
It is well made, has a lot of safety features and, at least as was the case when I had one, lower insurance costs than its competitors. I would recommend it to anyone, and have personally influenced the purchase of a new one each, by my family and a friend.
I once owned a new '94 SL2. When it was stolen, I bought an identical one. After two break-ins however, I decided that cars and NYC don't mix. (As if the traffic and parking weren't enough to tell me that.)
Hope driving conditions are more hospitable where you are.
Use it well.
Part of the reason for the Saturn's lower insurance costs is that the body of the car, with the exception of the roof, hood, and trunklid, is plastic. And the panels need only be bolted on. This significantly reduces the cost of repairs. And it is an exceptionally safe vehicle; I can introduce you to my brother because of it.
I am between cars right now (Allstate has purchased the remains of my current vehicle). I'm waiting on the insurance company to purchase a replacement, which I've already picked out. People who didn't know I was in an accident won't know unless I tell them. Right down to the color. :)
-Hank
Also, they designed the windshield to be so far away from the driver's seat that I could not reach far enough to touch it while seated. That was not the case with the other cars I had looked at.
In addition, the engine is designed to drop to the ground upon frontal impact, which means it would not get pushed into the passenger compartment. Similarly, the Saturn's steering column is supposed to collapse (presumably afer the air bag opens), so that it won't make an "impression" on the driver.
The frame is the same as the frame for the Chevy Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire. The body, engine, interior and suspension components differ between them. We all hope the only safety systems we verify as operational on our vehicles are the anti-lock brakes.
I found out that the airbags and seatbelts worked REALLY well, although the impact, according to GM, should not have activated the airbags.
-Hank
Similarly, the Saturn's steering column is supposed to collapse... so that it won't make an "impression" on the driver.
So have the columns of all American cars since the mid to late '60s. That's not a Saturn exclusive by any means. And the drop-down engine design is one of two standard approaches taken by front-drive cars for the past fifteen years (the other is the sideways deflection, used in the larger Saturn and most larger front-drive cars). I'm not knocking Saturn by any means - one of the key members of my team at work walked away from a wreck that nearly totalled his '01 "large" Saturn - just pointing out that their safety features aren't unique.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Saw one last night (an 'LS') that was involved in a corner-corner head-on with an '01 Dodge Neon. The Saturn had its left front corner sheared off (the wheel, fender, A-frame, and 1/2 of the shock absorber were across the street) Oddly, the airbags in the Saturn did not deploy (the Neon's did) but while paramedics were working on the Neon driver, the person I assume was the Saturn driver was standing on the curb, hugging a cop and crying.
-Hank
(I base the assumption on the two ambulances at the scene, and all 4 paramedic/EMTs were working on the Neon.)
I think the Neon should be manufactured by Sunkist.
Having previously been a passenger in this lemon, I think I'd be more secure on my bicycle. The car shaked and rattled all over, and not just on city streets.
Saturn got me to switch from Toyota. I would never have done that for a Neon.
Part of the reason for the Saturn's lower insurance costs is that the body of the car, with the exception of the roof, hood, and trunklid, is plastic.
My wife is thinking about buying a car in the next couple of months, so recently we went to a Saturn dealership just to look around. They had a big rubber mallet near the door and invited people to bang on one of the cars. It was difficult for me to fight to urge to test the mallet on the windshield ... after all, they didn't say where you had to hit the car!
When I looked at the Saturn, I kicked the door. I had previously kicked a nice-sized dent in my fathers van, so I knew what I could do. Bounced off harmlessly.
-Hank
I wonder if anyone actually kicks tires anymore.:-)
No, I didn't know you were in an accident Hank. I hope you're physically ok and weren't hurt. But I have to tell you I was disappointed with the title of your post=="I Did It." Hell, I thought you meant you finally got off the dime and got married. That is when that title will really come in handy. Come on buddy, don't put it off any longer.
Man, you really don't pay attention. He wasn't the one who started the thread. That's what the Re: is, it's a response.
Sorry AP, you got me again. You're very good at that. Ever thought of being a Presidential advisor. I will make amends with Hank on this. And this time stick with your handle. You're all over the place with name changes. Remember, consistency thou art jewel.
It's been a while since I've changed my handle.
I like my current handle, I might keep it for longer than I did any others. I won't change anything until at least early 2002.
I won't change anything until at least early 2002.
Not even your underwear? Boy, your mother will be mad :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've got 3 months and 9 days left...
-Hank
That would be July 28, give a day or two. A big day for sure. Now don't get nervous. It will be a grand day. Maybe you can take your new bride for a ride on the Sea Beach, although if you do you lovely lady might just decide to annul the marriage. Well, if she isn't a Sea Beach fan take her to a Mets game. They should be hitting by July.
If they haven't Flushed their season down the toilet yet.
OK, someone's math is off...the date is set for 8/26. Please don't rush me!
I took her on the NYCRRS Bay Ridge Line tour last year. The joke most emailed to me afterwards was "Is she still going to marry you?" Temp was in the high 90's, and we spent several hours in a car with no A/C.
-Hank
Well Hank, I have to give you credit for having guts, that;s for sure. Your lady could have given you the heave ho after putting her through that ordeal. I'll bet the humidity was even worse than the heat, and why no air conditioning in the car? Someone goofed---just as I did in screwing up the date of your big day by a month. You will have to excuse me because math was always my worst subject.
The car was an old LIRR diesel coach, with its own genrator for lights and HVAC. Unfortunately, they could not get the generator started. I was informed that they would have an air-conditioned car, but you can't always count on these things. I mean, none of the cars on the Strausburg is so equipped.
-Hank
I forgot how nice it is to put on some good music and take off out on the open highway outside the city for a couple hours. Scenic drives from Chicago include Sheridan Road through the North Shore suburbs, and Archer Avenue out to Joliet.
Call me crazy, but I don't mind being stuck in traffic if it's scenic.
And I just enjoy taking scenic drives. Even if the scenery is the destination of a road. I went to Montauk Point and back recently.
I won't be having that pleasure for a while as I had to give my car up.
I hope to get a car with a GPS nav system.
Can anybody recommend a good auto parts store where I can purchase marker lights and rollsigns for my car.
Do you blow your horn two short and one long (or whatever it is) as you go through an intersection? :-)
I've been known to beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep now and then at a green light.
As for marker lights, one driving lamp and one fog lamp make a nice white-amber combination.:-) CTA was selling old roller curtains at Merchandise Mart a few years back. My aunt got me a Red Line side rollsign.
As for marker lights, one driving lamp and one fog lamp make a nice white-amber combination.:-)
Actually, I was going to replace the fog lamps with flashing ditch lights. The marker lights would go near the top of the windshield.
I'll also need to find a mechanic who can install air brakes on this thing. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or dynamic brakes.:-)
At any rate, congratulations on your purchase. I wish you many safe miles on it. Give my regards to the Skyway if you ever find yourself on it.
While you're at it, how about one of those RR diesel airhorns?
I had a friend who put one on a 1979 Chevette. The heads sure turned when he tooted!
David, As you & many others know I enjoy riding the rails just for fun, but have also got a lot of enjoyment out of my LeBaron Convertable this past 6 years. Crusing along the Cross Island Parkway by the marina has made the drives home almost pleasent. I use to have a 66 Mustang Convertable & drove that to work at Pan Am. Parked it with the top down across the street from where I worked in my spot.
Many happy miles ahead to you.
Mr t__:^)
People on the Dan Ryan Expressway get really pissed when you drive in the left-hand express lane next to a Red Line train, including stopping at each station and opening your doors.
I'm, like, assuming that there's some exaggeration here ...
I hadn't been out to Schaumburg in years. It's still every bit of the plastic wasteland of strip malls and parking lots as I remember it being. Except now it has a gargantuan IKEA store.
Sounds like my sort of place!
Lake Shore Drive on a warm spring day with the windows down is one of the best reasons to own a car in Chicago.
Someone from Chicago recently posted on misc.transport.road that he enjoyed driving on LSD. Needless to say, there was quite some misunderstanding at first.
Hey, I've driven on LSD in Chicago, too.:-) It's a good thing I know about its rerouting at Soldier Field, otherwise I'd think I was hallucinating.
People on the Dan Ryan Expressway get really pissed when you drive in the left-hand express lane next to a Red Line train, including stopping at each station and opening your doors.
A Saturn with sliding doors? Kewl!! :)
Have you had the opportunity to determine crush loading for your, er, rolling stock?
--Mark
>>> Have you had the opportunity to determine crush loading for your, er, rolling stock? <<<
That's easy, six adults ...... or eighteen circus clowns. :-)
Tom
Chinese fire drill!!!
All you saturn owners, i think the cars have 1.8 L engines, correct me please if im wrong, do you feel confident on fast merges into highways with that power?
Are you still going to take Transit still?
Environmental study has been launched by the city. Story in Daily News.
Obviously, nothing in there about a bi-level rail/subway tunnel on the S.I. route, since the cost of the freight line alone will be over $1 billion. But it would be nice if they did scrape up at least a few bucks to include the possibility of a Brooklyn-S.I. subway connection to go along with the freight route study.
Yes indeed, while they're at it would be only a nominal cost to add 2 more tracks. Nominal meaning considering what it would cost if they started from scratch later on for a rail transit tunnel. But it may never happen anyway.
It makes more sense to build the tunnel from Brooklyn straight to the New Jersey rail facilities. But I thought the tunnel was already deemed unfeasable because it has to begin it's descent under the water miles from the waterfront areas??
That's true. Particularly for the Brooklyn side. There is ample land on the Greenville, New Jersey side for the emergence of the rail tunnel, but in Brooklyn it would mean a tunnel 'approach' that would be about a mile or so inland from the tunnel portal.
It could be done, but the upheaval to create it (re-routing of some street traffic in the Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst neighborhoods) would make a tremendous outcry from NIMBYS that would turn the tunnel project into a potential political "hot potato".
BMTman
Why not have a Bklyn SI tunnel emerge in Bklyn in the right of way of the old LIRR Bay Ridge Branch. It should be wide enough and after the tunnel the yard would not be needed as the car floates would be gone.Then the problem of NIMBY would not be a problem. It might not make for the shortest tunnel but workable. With the good planning the subway could share the tunnels by making them bi directional.
Just another thought on the subject.
Burn the slow orders-Run Eight
Curt
If the tunnel was built paralell to the Verrazano (which would require the least amount of underwater work anyway), the Brooklyn side of the tunnel could run under Fort Hamilton Pkwy and I-278, and wouldn't have to reach ground level until it got to the Bay Ridge LIRR tracks at 62nd Street. That would give it a good two miles from where it hits land to the portal, which would be long enough to accommodate a gradual grade down.
If they did add a subway line, it could also split off from the Sea Beach route at 62nd Street between the Eighth Ave. and Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. stations and begin its decent down from there. They could also stick in a station at 86th Street, to give the people there an option besides the R (assuming a SI line would run express in Brooklyn and that the Manny B will ever be fixed up to handle it)
I agree that the tunnel should be built with a portal residing at the LIRR Bay Ridge Yards at 65th Street. Freight trains can emerge from the tunnel and continue their route through the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch out to Fresh Pond Yard and points beyond, or they can come out of the tunnel and utilize the 65th Street Yards. Bay Ridge and Sunset Park community opposition to the project should be minimum, since the 65th Street Yards reside in a predominantly industrial area. If a mass transit subway line is to be integrated in the design, the subway could link up with the N and R line at 59th Street and Fourth Avenue in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.
The question is: how are the communities who reside along the Bay Ridge Branch ROW going to react once they realize that the line is going to experience a large increase in freight train activity? Right now, the residents may not care about train traffic because only one or two freight trains operate on the line today. A rail tunnel will increase freight rail traffic throughout the line. Will residents accept the increased noise that emanates from the freight trains? Even though this is years away from development, it should be quite interesting to watch.
TS
www.OldNYC.com
Some residents on the Bay Ridge Line -- particularly in the area of Midwood -- are already complaining about the train traffic -- and NY&A only comes through there MAYBE twice a day! (BTW, NY&A does not make deliveries 'afterhours', so most people should be at work and not even notice the freight traffic).
Ya can't please everyone.
And besides, most of the homeowners over there knew there was an active railroad in their 'backyards' when they purchased their homes, so what right do they have to whine and complain?
BMTman
That is old news. Folks did not like it when the line was under catenary, and then it went diesel because some kid who was trespassing in a rail yard got on top of a box car and came in contact with the juice, resulting in his death. The cry went out and down came the wires. If anyone complains about the diesels, blame the trespassing kid whose parents blamed the railroad for their lack of control over him. It is always someone else's fault. I hope that the tunnel to Staten Island gets built before I go into retirement, and that will happen in about 13 years. Let's get going!
How exactly are they planning on getting trains through the tunnel under diesel power? They may either end up putting back the catenary or end up using dual mode freight engines.
Not necessarily. Ever heard of auto-tunnels?
There's an 8 mile long tunnel thru the Cascades on the BNSF, ex-Great Northern Line in Washington. Once upon a time it was electrified but once steam was gone so was the short electrified district. Diesels pull all trains thru it; I don't like it but have never heard of anyone being gassed.
Actually, there have been at least three deaths in that tunnel since de-electrification - perhaps more, since my source for this information was published in 1985. Two were hobos, but one was a crewman riding in the third unit, less than one-half mile from the lower entrance, when an upbound train stalled briefly. I don't know what the clearing time is now, but at one point in the '60s the minimum interval between trains was 2.5 hours, to permit the exhaust gases to clear sufficiently (even with supplemental ventilation).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's an 8 mile long tunnel thru the Cascades on the BNSF, ex-Great Northern Line in Washington. Once upon a time it was electrified but once steam was gone so was the short electrified district. Diesels pull all trains thru it; I don't like it but have never heard of anyone being gassed. Of course if it were shared with passenger trains /subway every l0-20 minutes and right behind a freight it might not be very nice.
How exactly are they planning on getting trains through the tunnel under diesel power? They may either end up putting back the catenary or end up using dual mode freight engines.
Diesel trains run through the DRT* and the GRT* just fine.
*Detriot River and Grand Rapids tunnels.
Sorry about my double post a few minutes ago, tried to stop the first to add one more line but posted twice.
On this subject like noise, etc. I doubt that freight trains on ballasted track are any noisier than having a bounch of roaring big trucks going by and likewise pollution; trains are occasional, highway traffic is constant. But people have to whine.
Good point, Ed.
BTW, since Sub-bus (Mike) became a conductor on A-Division recently, he has been referring to himself as the 'IRTman'.
Ol'd buddy, you'd better straighten him out pronto...:-)
Doug
Heh. Strange religious conversions ... good thing he's wired for 32 volts. :)
Guess one can't object to sharing the honors of being an IRT man even if the original trains are gone! Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. For Selkirk's post had it been the old days he didn't have to be wired for 32 V...could be a High-V, everything 600V. Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk
During the sixties that line saw three trains and hour, and maybe more. I went to high school near that right of way, and you could hear the ex-Virginian electrics hum with a vengenance with long lines of freight. With increased traffic, there will be less trucks on the highway, and the right of way will get cleaned up of all the trash that got dumped there.
That ROW went right behind the apartment house I grew up in. I don't remember 3 trains an hour, but I do remember at least a few per day, some over 100 cars long. (And I do remember my mother telling me about the kid who touched the wires and telling me not to do anything that stupid.) I don't remember any one in the building complaining about the trains, though they did complain when it was proposed that a Cross Brooklyn Expressway be built there.
I agree. Restore the ROW, re-build the 2nd track, and clean up the trash. The engines create some vibration, and, after that, if you're not a rail fan, the sound puts you to sleep.
For further info on the current state of the ROW, see oldnyc.com.
I agree with you thet there should be a freight tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island. There should also be a subway tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island and another subway tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan.
BMTJeff
How about giving an incentive to CSX or Norfolk Southern to build the tunnel? They will be the ones using it anyway, so make it worth their investment.
CSX, Norfolk Southern and whoever stands to operate the Brooklyn deepwater port should have to put some money into the project. While it stands to benefit New York overall in increased jobs and tax revenue, there's no reason to completly subsidize the private companies that would gain the most out of the project.
On the other hand, unless there is state and federal funding, the rail companies would be unlikely to shoulder the cost themselves. Plus the direction of the tunnel will also affect what, if any money New Jersey might contribute to the project.
A tunnel across the Narrows that's entirely within NYC and which uses the existing CSX (B&O) bridge to get across the Arthur Kill would be expected to receive minimal, if any, support from New Jersey, since it would require little new infrastructure in the state and would offer less benefit. On the other hand, a tunnel straight across the bay to Bayonne would require extensive new trackage there to loop around Newark Bay to the main CSX lines, or would require a second tunnel under Newark Bay to reach the main line. The former would provide more ecomonic benfit to the Bayonne dock area, so New York would be justified in asking New Jersey to put a few bucks in the till to support the project.
I enjoyed your additional detail on the Jersey side.
BTW, It's also interesting to note that now BOTH NYC & Port Auth are activly studing this tunnel idea.
Personally it's a flip of the coin .... tunnel to SI & include a couple of extra tracks for a subway, but not have NJ support vs. tunnel to NJ for freight only. Unfortunately it may end in JUST a study as NYC already invested $20M at 65th for a new float facility, and just like the East River bridge vs. tunnel mentality, it'll cost less short term to maintain a float facility then build a tunnel under the Hudson.
Mr t__:^)
Randy Kennedy's weekly Tunnel Vision column in the Tuesday Times this week is about the obnoxious practice of witnessing for Jesus on the A train.
I can only imagine what it would have been like when the R-10s ruled on the A. Trying to shout above the rolling thunder and all.
Subway evangelists may be the single biggest train "pet peeve" in my book, or at least up there with rats. The last thing I want to hear about is how I'm going to hell because I'm not a Christian. Some of these guys never let up! Once on the (F) I was hearing a speech all the way through a slow ride from 71st-Conitnental to 179th (It's further than you think!) I was fuming when I finally got out of the train! I felt under attack as a Jew, or as any non-Christian. And whatever religion, Im prefer not to think of God as a fascist dictator who will condemn anyone who doesn't worship in exactly the style one religion preaches.
Andrew
"I felt under attack as a Jew, or as any non-Christian."
Agreed.
A particularly offensive organization is "Jews for Jesus". They go even further than the characters described in today's Times column.
They claim to be Jewish, and go after non-religious Jews, saying they can "become more Jewish" by accepting Christ. They do this by assigning Christian themes to Jewish hoidays and rituals. They actaully have a fair amount of success, especially in the secular Russian community.
These ________________ (I have a few adjectives, but don't want to violate the behavior code) take college courses in how to proselytize. After "graduation", volunteers from "Jews for Jesus" and a similar group, "Chosen People's Ministries" come to NYC every July, spreading their nonsense and litter across the subway system.
I belong to a counter-missionary group. We distribute our own pamphlets, wherever we see them. Unfortunately, they are more of them than us, and are well-funded. They have official support from, among others, the Soutern Baptist Convention.
Come to Kings Hwy on the Brighton. Each day a different group is parked outside the station. From the Hasadic Jews, Jews for Jesus to the Watch Tower and Born Again people. I've always wondered if two groups ever showed up at the same time if there would be a fight?
The Watchtower people are annoying, but at least for the most part they just stand there. The Chasidim only try to make other Jews more observant; they do not try to convert others.
By contrast, Jews for Jesus exists for the purpose of converting Jews to Christianity, in a manner that is insulting to both traditions.
>>Chasidim only try to make other Jews more observant;
"Excuse me, are you Jewish", asked five times as I'm trying to exit the station and get off the block.
Not only that, they would give you something then expect money for it. Some people are so surprised when the hasidim try to trake back the trinket when they don't get any money.
I find this just as annoying as "Witnessing"
I did notice a table set up for J-F-J one Sunday afternoon in the exact spot you mention, in front of the main entrance on Kings Highway under the trestle.
There had been published reports of many Russian immigrants being taken in by this coalition on the premise of 'enhancing their Judiasm', something they couldn't do in their homeland. Supposedly the lack of housing in Brighton Beach has led many Russians to settle in other areas of south Brooklyn, including the Kings Highway area. Obviously the religious zealots are aware of this.
They're too smart to fall for any suggestions that they set up shop in front of the Avenues J or M stations (the heart of Orthodox Midwood), or heaven forbid, Borough Park.
What's really offensive is when they try to ply their trade at crowded bus stops, where you can't pretend you're asleep. One fool tried to hand out his propaganda at the Q65A stand outside 71st/Continental one weekday rush hour. That bus serves heavily Orthodox Kew Garden Hills and Hillcrest. He retreated after a severe gang tongue-lashing.
"especially in the secular Russian community. " -how you know that?
"especially in the secular Russian community. " -how you know that?
Through my volunteer work with the counter-missionary organization I belong to.
J-4-J operates free English classes in those communties, complete with childcare. The only condition is that the clients also take religion "classes" with them.
In fact, J-4-J does not even wait for them to get here. They have a whole operation in Russia itself.
So how will it get worse in July?
Andrew
Jews for Jesus only comes out in July. They spend different months in a variety of cities with large Jewish populations.
If you see them here at any other time of the year, that's just a few of its regular NYC employees going out for fun. The lovely visitors in July are volunteers from all over the country, and even elsewhere.
Subway evangelists may be the single biggest train "pet peeve" in my book.
What about an evangelist who advocated people convert to Railfanism. They would do things like try to prevent people from getting on things such as R68's direct them toward car's w/ railfan windows and go on and on about how you need to confess you stop signal transgressions to the Great Dispatcher.
Do you think the average member of the public would find a railfan evangelist more or less annoying than a normal one?
"What about an evangelist who advocated people convert to Railfanism"
If he quoted from the ancient scrolls would it be the ones from the R-12s that had Ditmars Blvd for a destination and Astoria Local for the route !
Bill "Newkirk"
Even more ancient would be those from the WF Steinway Lo-V's.
wayne
Do you think the average member of the public would find a railfan evangelist more or less annoying than a normal one?
I don't know, but when you go off on tangents like this I think the average SubTalker finds you more annoying than a normal one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
None of my business either way but if one wishes to get religion people have a choice of churches to go to anywhere they live. Hopefully the best option on trains is to ignore it but I guess these people can get pretty vocal.
As for "God" and one person or another's interpretation of who he is I was raised with that fascist dictator concept and thankfully got away from it but still haunted by it when things are bad.
Most people of any "cloth" believe in a Supreme Being in one way or another and have some codes of law to live by; Two thirds or more of the World's people are not going to hell because of what they believe or don't believe. Enough, but nobody need take it personally.
It's in no way restricted to the 'A' train, or even New York. Some years ago a wonderfully speedy express ride on the Broad Street line was ruined by a shrill preacherette all the way from City Hall to Fern Rock.
These people obviously are not living in the real world if they actually expect anyone to suddenly embrace Jesus because a stranger on a subway train is bellowing at them to do so. As a non-observant Jew, I have to wonder if Jesus himself would approve of using his ideas for the purpose of browbeating.
To further site their bizarre logic, after a '4' train was put out of service at Bowling Green, the evangalist who had plagued us since at least Grand Central informed us it was not due to the claimed smoke condition, but because WE were sinners!! This brought some boisterous laughter.
For many years there have been Islamic fundamentalists in crowded locations such as in front of Penn Station and the Times Square Marriott Marquis. They routinely use megaphones to call for genocide of "ice people", Caucasians, Christians, Jews, or anyone else. Most people ignore them, but a fistfight nearly broke out when one singled out as the Devil a young white woman who was waiting for the light and minding her own business. Her boyfriend/husband challenged the zealot, and it began to look ugly. A cop was summoned, but shrugged and claim the First Amendment made this permissible before quickly walking away.
Maybe so, but isn't blocking a sidewalk and spouting bigoted statements for the express purpose of provoking people illegal? Shouldn't it be?
These people obviously are not living in the real world if they actually expect anyone to suddenly embrace Jesus because a stranger on a subway train is bellowing at them to do so. As a non-observant Jew, I have to wonder if Jesus himself would approve of using his ideas for the purpose of browbeating.
I highly doubt Jesus would have approved. In any event, I suspect that many of these subway preachers aren't really trying to get converts. It's more likely that they're trying to convince themselves of the truth of what they're preaching.
Jesus did say "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them...and commanding them to obey everything I have commanded you...".(St. Matthew 28:19,20) (And this assumes that people are on the wrong path, (Hebrew scriptures- Psalms 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ecclesiastes 7:20) providing the basis of the belief that one way is right (John 14:6)
But I would admit that many Christians do go about this commission in entirtely wrong ways, and have mixed much error and their own personal problems (ego, pride, shame for their own sins, etc) into the message.
These aren't Islamic fundamentalists, but rather a Black Hebrew sect based in Harlem known as the School of Universal Practical Knowledge (UPK). Years ago, there was an Islamic sect based in Bushwick (The Ansaars--still not "fundamentalist"), but this has dispersed (You can still find a few guys with tables selling the booklets and oils. Although the literature has practically disappeared, a lot of women like the oils.)
We have some news concerning your order for "Microsoft Train
Simulator: Sybex Official Strategies & Secrets." We are sorry to
report that the official release date for this book has been pushed
back to 05/14/2001 it was 4/16/2001.
Transit police are giving out zipper locks for bags and backpacks to help deter theft from passengers on subway trains. Story in Daily News.
Very creative. These officers obviously brought their thinking caps to work. Good for them; good for us.
Ideas like this from people who put there life on the line every day is welcome,instead of bitching about how bad crime is at LEAST their DOING something about it,it may not stop it but will make someone stop and think about robing someone.....thanks guys.
What's next, the transit police handing out chastity belts and/or corks to prevent straphangers from being raped?
Criminals (of all races, creeds, national origins, disabilities, military affiliations, religions, and perversions) have just a bit over eight short months to wait for our blessed mayor to leave office before they will have their city back again.
With this step, it looks like we are already surrendering.
Pardon me for that racist, elitist, closed-minded view.
>>> What's next, the transit police handing out chastity belts and/or corks to prevent straphangers from being raped? <<<
Gee, I'm sorry if these zipper locks have cramped your style. :-)
Tom
watch as soon as His Honor leaves, we will see mass unorganization within the city, oh well back to the Demi-Days of Dinky, im afraid for the Transit Bureau NYPD, an already undertrained bureau, oh well, what can I say, I just feel sorry for the officers who are commited to the numerous transit districts. They are put in Danger not only with their lives, but with their jobs, Apparently the city doesn't think that Transit cops need separate instruction (they do already get) but its not enough. Community Relations Training needs to be intensified, the only ones loosing here are the law-abiding Straphangers and Officers
You think the city is going to become some kind of lawless 'Dodge City' just because Rudy is going to leave office??? What are you stoned???
BMTman
There are some who get together in Bavaria these days and cry over Hitler not being with them either, decrying the decadence in his wake. Did Rudy ever make the trains run on time? (that seems to be in keeping with the persona) ...
InsaneFox defecated onto this board with this:
What's next, the transit police handing out chastity belts and/or corks to prevent straphangers from being raped?
What do you have against crime prevention? It's sure as hell cheaper to prevent crimes from occuring then having to deal with the crap later. And unlike in a police state, people can't be monitored 24/7 and every possible action prevented.
I don't think you got the point, pig.
Who ISN'T for crime prevention other than criminals?
There is a big difference between crime prevention measures, and rationalizing that "Well, crime is going to occur anyway, so we might as well get used to some of it by making every man a fortress against it." If you think that it is less expensive to hand out zipper locks than process criminals, how about purchasing insurance, burglar alarms, iron gates, cement walls, and other things decent citizens should do to protect themselves from the inevitable in your fantasy society?
The thing you don't like is that Rudy's crime prevention measures worked, as opposed to those of at least four administrations before his. All but Rudy basically drew a line somewhere up the crime scale and told criminals that they won't be bothered as long as they stay below it. Rudy said that no crime should go unpunished, and by focusing on smaller crimes, you begin to catch the big fish swimming higher up the crime chain. Guess what? Those big fish were the ones also jumping turnstiles, old ladies, and Sam the convenience store owner.
The first obligation of a civilized people is to keep the peace. It doesn't sound like such a complicated mandate. Rudy fulfilled that obligation better than any in the last 30 years. Sad to say, I have little confidence in his successor(s) maintaining what Rudy did to keep the peace.
Why do you think I hate Rudy? I am the first person to complain when some numbskull likens Rudy to Hitler or says that the next mayor will be better.
Well, RUDY IS THE BEST MAYOR SINCE LAGUARDIA!
And these Zipper locks aren't incompatible with crime prevention. No matter how much you try, you will never eliminate crime. A two pronged approach is obviously better. Prevent crimes, and then those that can't be prevented, make sure those are punished.
Resolved.
Amicably.
Actually, if a certain former president starts riding the subway to his office, they might want to issue him one too... and I don't mean for his backpack :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lindsey Layton wrote an article in the Washington Post about the results of a Federal Highway Admin study that reports that mass transit use growing faster than highway use nationally, with a bigger difference in the Washington area.
Also check out this web site Light Rail Central
Mr t__:^)
Your link didn't work for me, but this link did.
Some possible correlations:
1) Higher gas prices really do affect the amount of driving.
2) Lower crime makes people more willing to share space with other people ie. parks, transit, cities. Higher crime makes people want to hide their own private cars/malls/backyards/gated communities.
3) Bush, who wants to cut spending on energy research and mass transit, is an idiot.
Larry, I don't know that I would credit your #1 & 2 for the apparent change in mind set in the US, but the fact remains that more and more cities are planning & re-createing light rail vs. bus or more highways to better serve their increased population.
Does urban sprawl & continued concentration of jobs downtown better lend itself to light rail today then it did in the 40s, 50s & 60s ?
Maybe we should add a couple of more bullets to your list:
#4. The cost to lease/buy a car motivates folks to think of other ways to get to work.
#5. The cost to park (no longer free because of the value of the land) or just general lack of some place to park AND bumper to bumper crawl back & forth to work motivates folks to think of other ways to get there.
Mr t__:^)
Has anyone played the BVE train simulator? Someone did a whole sim of the 7 line! Excellent!
I have. I wish it went all the way to Main Street. I read he plans on making a Brighton Line next.
Tony,
Ernie is currently extending BVE 7 line to Main St from Junction Blvd, it should be released soon.
To see if it's updated, visit my site (cut and paste, sorry)
http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
and click "Route Database" this database will have (hopefully) all of subway, light rail or commuter rail ADD-ONs listing for BVE, Microsoft Train Simulator and Trainz.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Tony,
Ernie is currently extending BVE 7 line to Main St from Junction Blvd, it should be released soon.
To see if it's updated, visit my site (cut and paste, sorry)
http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
and click "Route Database" this database will have (hopefully) all of subway, light rail or commuter rail ADD-ONs listing for BVE, Microsoft Train Simulator and Trainz.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
My friend who operates the R line has told me something that had me think for a while. As everyone knows the TA tested the V line along with the other Queens boulevard Subway lines. Anyway from what he told me, if the plan succeeds, then the TA will Extend either the G or V line to 179 and have the F go express. I really hope they do that!
I hope they do! That would cut my commute down.
:-) Andrew
Makes sense, but why did it take so long? How about making use of those express tracks in Brooklyn, from Church Ave. to Bergen Street?
If the tracks and signals are there, make use of them, don't just let them collect dust and rust from disuse. How about it, guys?
Not enough cars for two services down Culver. And the G can't run Culver lcl under F express because all local stops will complain about loss of direct Manhattan service.
"How about making use of those express tracks in Brooklyn, from Church Ave. to Bergen Street? "
A fire in the Bergen St. tower several years ago rendered the switch machine destroyed. The express tracks can't be used until the tower at Bergen is replaced. There are plans for a new tower on the books and should be going out to bid soon.
As discussed here many times, when the (F) ran express and the (GG)_ ran local years ago, the (F) passengers at the local stations bitched that they had to transfer for Manhattan service. Also, let's not forget the current car shortage.
Bill "Newkirk"
Dare I make The following recommendation?
Skip stop service ???
So that cuts it in half. Only the G stops will be arguing. But at that point just get rid of it entirely. What do F riders save, 3 stops? That's at about 45 seconds a stop {15-20 seconds stopped plus 25-30 seconds to slow and speed up} which is about 2 1/4 minutes. Also, would this include the rule of slowing to 15 MPH to bypass? That's worse.
Isn't that what the 1 & 9 do ?
>>A fire in the Bergen St. tower several years ago rendered the switch machine destroyed. The express tracks can't be used until the tower at Bergen is replaced. There are plans for a new tower on the books and should be going out to bid soon.<<
That's funny. If you look at the track plans, F train access to the express tracks requires no switching whatsoever. That tower is not the problem. The problem is that:
1. No manhattan service at carrol or Bergen unless you open the lower level.
2. Like you said, there is also no direct mahnattan service at the local stations.
To solve that, Why not extend BOTH the G and V to Church av. as locals. Of course, you don't have enough cars.
By what? 90 seconds? Why waste the resources?
I know you're really against this. I have been on the HIllside Express a few times as a fluke, and it makes a difference, not a half-hour difference, but every little bit helps. Consider that almost everyone using 179th is coming from further out in Queens, and using more than one mode, and need every boost they (we) can get.
What I will say is that the (G) by itself is in no way enough service for the local stops. They should extend at least two services (if they have the stock), or if it must be one, make it the (R) or the (V).
If all 3 trains will be running together on the local tracks, then at least 2 lines will be necessary to provide adequate service to 179. One train was tried and it failed back in 1988-92. Assuming the R and V trains would be the lines running local to 179th, it might work.
Well, no. Not enough cars exist to do it.
"Attention G riders. Court Sq. will be the next and last stop. Please cease your crying and transfer here for the E and V lines to Manhattan. The walk will do wonders for your health".
Why not the R to 179th rather than the V ?
Why have 2 6th Avenue trains go there. The R can connect with the Lex at 59th rather then 51st.
"Why not the R to 179th rather than the V ?
Why have 2 6th Avenue trains go there. The R can connect with the Lex at 59th rather then 51st."
Who cares? Does anybody plan on taking the R OR V local all the way from 179 to Manhattan?
Talk about torture.
Of course, yours true did at one time ride the A train local from Harlem to Far Rockaway. That was a long ride.
Imagine the R from end to end. I did this once when going to S.I. (no not the very last stop) but it was long and boring. But many people need LOCAL stops as well. The whole Rego Park/Elmhurst area is served by only locals, so they do get crowded. I've waited awhile for a G or R at Grand ave while express after express goes by. They need 3 lines or more frequent local service.
Woodhaven Blvd should be an exp stop. I think it was planned to be but wasn't. They certainly have enough people there, and it would close the distance a bit between exp stops. I can understand a fast express is wanted, but 71 Ave-Roosevelt, a little bit to far apart I say.
Well that would be a more expensive proposal than just having more local trains. Besides I'd miss whizzing by Woodhaven Blvd.
Well the plan didn't succeed, and there is a 99% chance that the G ends at Court Square. So don't get your hopes up.
We all discussed this last night. It was planned to fail, but Pataki/Kalikow/Greenpoint want it, and will not accept no for an answer anymore than a no answer was acceptable for intermodal transfers or unlimited rides with Metrocard. They'll have to practice and tweak it until they get it right.
Well Joe, tell me what communities have more political clout:
Greenpoint
Forest Hills/Rego Park
My point being that the local service will be shot if the G/R/V all run on QB during the rush. It was awful on a bloody Saturday morning for Christ's sake.
And one question......if Kalikow really wants it like you say, why would he go along with a test that was "doomed to fail"?
Forest Hills/Rego Park want the G as well, the more frequency to their local stops to feed the expresses, the better. It's not them vs. Geenpoint. Steinway Street's merchants need Greenpoint's residents as customers ass well.
They are going to have to streamline terminal procedures at Forest Hills in the station and beyond. More platform conductors and cops, and less crawling and sitting on the ramps east of the station. 27 trains per hour is not capacity.
Who said Kalikow went along with the test that was doomed to fail ? His response will simply be spare me the details, make it work, or else.
The test all along was doomed to fail if you turn the R/V at Continental and run the G all the way out. They say the test failed/is failing because trains are held up. Pick the right trains to turn around at Continental {my preference: the G and R} and run the V to 179, and be amazed at how much more easier it is to turn the trains. The G is not frequent plus it is short, shorter walk through train, etc. The V is part time and should go to 179. The G was/is considered last for Queens Blvd, should it not be considered last for 179 as well?
Forest Hills/Rego Park want the G as well, the more frequency to their local stops to feed the expresses, the better. It's not them vs. Greenpoint. Steinway Street's merchants need Greenpoint's residents as customers as well.
They are going to have to streamline terminal procedures at Forest Hills in the station and beyond. More platform conductors and cops, and less crawling and sitting on the ramps east of the station. 27 trains per hour is not capacity.
Who said Kalikow went along with the test that was doomed to fail ? His response will simply be spare me the details, make it work, or else.
Besides, they're building crew quarters at Court Square. It's extremely unlikely they'd waste that money by not having Court Square become the permanent terminal. I've walked the passage between Court Square and 23 Ely and it's hardly the 10 mile hike some claim it is.
No, but it's about 250 yards, a short Par 4. Enough of a hike to be a nuisance. Let them get their turnaround procedures at Continental worked out OR run one of them out to 179th. They need three locals during the weekdays along Queens Bvld.
wayne
No they don't. Two locals are just fine.
"Two locals are just fine."
It depends on the locals. If it's the way it is now, G and R, it is not enough, with the terrible size and frequency of the G, almost the same with the R. The V doesn't look anymore promising. If you run all three together and the RIGHT one to 179 {ie not the G} then it would be fine. Have you ever been to Woodhaven Blvd/Grand Ave/Elmhurst Ave? PACKED.
>>>Have you ever been to Woodhaven Blvd/Grand Ave/Elmhurst Ave? PACKED.<<<
You're forgetting that I only WORK on these lines. And yes I have worked both the AM & PM rush hours. During the rush hour, a train is scheduled to show up every 3-4 minutes. How can that not be enough? Granted delays happen, but you can't schedule on ink & paper unforeseen delays.
You want to create another local service, go put one on the Lexington IRT. I'm sure that they need an additional local service a helluva lot more than the QB riders.
They already have two locals, 6 local, and 6 express. I call it two routes because they both run over 10 tph.
"It depends on the locals. If it's the way it is now, G and R, it is not enough, with the terrible size and frequency of the G, almost the same with the R. The V doesn't look anymore promising. If you run all three together and the RIGHT one to 179 {ie not the G} then it would be fine. Have you ever been to Woodhaven Blvd/Grand Ave/Elmhurst Ave? PACKED. "
I don't think they should run all those lines to 179th Street. I think the R and V would be sufficient enough. Maybe they can provide a skip stop service to speed up service along there. But I wonder if passengers served by those local stations will go for something like that. Especially if they knew the R will be serving their station.
About the G and R as being an inadequate service, compare to the E and F, YES. But compare to the N which is the only service serving Astoria, ABSOLUTELY NOT! As A MATTER OF FACT, THE R ALONE RUNS BETTER THAN THE N. For example, I regularly see two R to one N. I think it's ridiculous!!!!
N Broadway LINE!
The walk is a piece of cake! I'm used to exercise since I walk on a treadmill four times a week for one hr each session.
Good for you, but what about the people who are not in the shape you are in? Elders, handicapped, etc.
It's short compared to the transfer between the 6 and E/F, or the A/C/E at Times Square. But it's still not across the platform.
That's called the tail wagging the dog. You run trains to serve customers not Crew Quarters.
"local service will be shot"
The 63rd st connection is really for Eastern Queens. They want riders from stops like 179 St and Union Tpke to have an easier ride to the city. These people have the E and/or F and could really care less how many locals there are, since when they relay they don't disrupt express service.
Yeah, and there'll be a fleet of R-6s to provide the express service.
The local would be a torturous trip from Jamaica to Manhattan, that's for sure.
wayne
Including (A-440) 1233, I presume.:-)
[My friend who operates the R line ... has told me (that) the TA will send either the G or V line to 179 and have the F go express.]
Keep in mind that such decisions are made by senior management, not by individual train operators. The service pattern that has already been made public remains official until it's officially superceded by an official announcement. Anything else is suggestion and speculation.
While riding on both of these lines today, I noticed a bunch of unusual signs placed along the unused middle tracks on these lines (Kings Hwy to Ditmas in Brooklyn, E180th St to 238th St in the Bronx) which stated "Test Track, Caution".
Testing what? Anyone know?
Running tests for new equipment, or experimental braking, propulsion, systems. etc.
Running tests for new equipment, or experimental braking, propulsion systems. etc.
Test tracks for the R-142& R-142A test track signs are on the Dyre Avenue line also.Dont know about the F maybe for the R-143's?
the area along the F is probably for braking tests for trains being worked on at Coney Island Shops.
They also test them sometimes on the 2 line (E 180th St to 238th St).
They will be testing all new cars when the TA finsh the track on the flats of Rockaways. The track will be the longest test track in the system, it is about 5 miles long. The TA will be able to get the train up to some good speeds there, and pop the dead man to see how fast it would stop.
Robert
While railfanning the #2 line today, in a vain attempt to find an R142 to ride (none were out), I noticed not one, but 2 R12 or R14 cars parked up at the northern end of the yard. Now old cars in yards aren't unusual, as many are converted for work service. But these 2 cars weren't painted the yellow color all work cars are. What was even more shocking was that these 2 cars had pristine, almost new looking 1970ish white/blue stripe paintjobs, with no graffiti. Even in the 1970's, cars painted like this never lasted long before being tagged. How on earth have these cars remained so clean? They must've been painted after they were retired, because the years these cars were retired, no car running was free from the grafitti menace. I felt like I was traveling back in time to 1972 or something. LOL.
I hope they are museum-bound.
perhaps repainted for a film?
Even a more shocked finding is when the two R-142's trains will be put in service they been sitting there for weeks!!!!!!!
I was walking on Baychester the other day, up to the 2/5 trains on White Plains Rd. and noticed the same thing. I was really surprised to see that train there.
Perhaps those cars were the "Fire School" cars that were in Coney Island yard for quite a few years. They were painted platinum mist with blue stripes.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wasn't close enough to get the car numbers. I was just shocked to see such a pristine example of the 1970's color scheme surviving today.
They are designated Transit Museum Cars, R-12 5782 and R-14 5871, formerly the fire training school cars of Coney Island Yard. They are awaiting restoration.
-Stef
Terrific. Another set of cars where one can assume the position.
AHA! My master plan is to adopt a playmate for 6688. Hehehe.
-Stef
A set of 26s?
28,29,33,36?
Well, I was thinking of the R-12/14 set in the yard. In terms of modern cars to save for a museum, my choice would be an R-33 World's Fair Car. A married pair of R-26/28/29/33 or 36s would be harder to accomodate at a place like Branford.
-Stef
Well, they are fully compatible, after all.
It appears after reading other posts the cars that you are mentioning are almost certainly museum bound. As for the color scheme, I guess that they wanted to make the cars look like a typical LAHT car of the 1970s sans graffiti.
BMTJeff
"railfanning the #2 line today, in a vain attempt to find an R142 to ride (none were out)
In case if you haven't heard, the R-142s on the #2 won't be road worthy till about mid May of early June as reported on this board.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe there are still Caution test track signs on the E180th street area because the R142's are still testing especially the R142's because they were all removed from service on the 2 last I heard. I haven't been on the 2 in a while, so they could be back on the road. As for the Culver line in BK, I saw them when the Rodeo was a couple of weeks ago. I do believe this is for the arrival of the R143's. before they hit revenue service, some will be tested on the Culver line. I hope that CBTC only works on the L. Some of us Railfans like myself still have dreams of operating a subway car. But then again I doubt CBTC will make it to every single subway line. By the time it does, if I become a Motorman, I will be retiring, or I will be worm food. (dead
The test tracks are used for ALL equipment, not just the R142/143 classes. A few days ago, the vacuum train was being tested on the Culver tracks.
As far as CBTC (aka ATO) goes, after the L line is up and running, the 7 line will be next.
The TA has said that they would like to have the entire system fitted for CBTC in about.........oh 40 years give or take an extra decade.
Why not use the tremendous amount of money needed to acheive this goal and put it towards building a full 2nd. Ave. line. Isn't that a more pressing need?
Does this track still exist east of Q.P.? I belive it is no longer a stub track but has switches at its east end. In any case, why can't G trains turn on it ?
During weekdays it would interfere with the E and V. Off hours, they wouldn't want to extend it there, so the people could complain why it couldn't go there all times (that is, if it is going to Court Square).
Do any of these 1938 Worlds Fair cars still exist ?
Last place they ran was the Third Avenue el until a couple of years before it was torn down between 149th and Gun Hill Rd. It's doubtful.
I remember these trains quite well, my dad was a signal towerman back on the Third Avenue El Bronx Park extension.In fact the Gun Hill Road tower sat in between the two tracks of the old El. The set up was like this the 1939WF cars were the first and fifth cars, Low V trailors were the three cars in the middle.They were old and smelly with rattan seats and big fans and a distinct groan.My dad told me the groan came from many years of service, and old age they werent too well maintained, some of the equipment had logged in over 50 years of service. but they had a charm about them too this day i missed them a lot.
I lived at 204th and Webster for several years, rode them all the time. Only downside was the Park extension was long since gone by the time I moved there but you could still see the stub as the train jogged around it to head up Webster from Fordham. And yep, did the run to lower level at Gun Hill often and did indeed see the tower there.
I only wish they could have kept them rolling to the bitter end instead of replacing them with those awful R12's and 14's that made their way on to replacing them. Given that the el had been doomed since the 50's and the only reason they seem to have left it standing at all is that it wouldn't come easily down, they should have tried to keep the older cars going. I loved 'em. That was the reason I was willing to ride that home from 149th instead of just taking the D train to the 205th terminal only a couple of blocks west from where I lived.
There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles of various mixed sets of WF and Steinway Lo-Vs on the 3rd Ave. el. On some trains, only the middle car was a Steinway Lo-V while the other four were WF cars. 5674 is visible in one or two photos; that's the number that appears on the studio mockup used in The Incident.
Actually the middle car was normally a Low-V trailer and the other four were a mix of World's Fair and standard Steinways although some trains indeed were all-World'sFair except for the trailer in the middle. Just FYI the first steel trains on the line [3rd Ave] which replaced the wood ones were 6-motor Steinway sets; can't remember when the latter consists became rule,
Now I want you to do a test: look in Gotham Turnstiles [nice book even with some errors and worth the price for all the color photography]for Low-V's [not the usual Worlds Fair/Steinway mixes]on the 3rd Ave. line. There is one photo I can think of; if I don't miss replies I'll give you the spotting feature for them later. There were no Steinways with the Spotting feature I have in mind! Have fun.
In answer to an earlier post [nobody answered but for those interested] see page 47 of Gotham Turnstiles. A rare incident of a conventionl Low-V mixed with Steinway-World's Fair types. Looks like a 5200 something number, probably one of the "museum" Low-v's pressed into service. You'll note that it has the metal [brass] window frames like the lead World's Fair Car.
The l9l6, l922, l924, and l925 Low-V's had wood window frames; the l9l7 Pullman order was the only set of original IRT cars [not counting the l938 World's Fair cars] that had brass window frames [much thinner] instead of wood, and these were all Low-v's, no Steinways. From somewhere in the 4900's thru 5301 which is most of the order the cars had brass window frames, compare the cars in the museum set you'll see. There were no standard body Steinways, Flivvers, or High'V's with them so there's a spotting feature.
The "groan" that those old cars made had nothing to do with age; it was the gearing system they used. Post-war rolling stock used a different type of gearing that didn't emit that groaning noise.
I've been to London twice. I was surprised to discover that London Underground stock made as recently as 1978 still makes that groaning sound. (I don't know if more recent rolling stock makes that noise.)
Britrail Class 317, 319, 321 EMU's also do it, which is only one car in a 4 car set (3 car sets on Scotrail).
Those ScotRail trains are rather interesting. When accelerating, they sound like a bus. No kidding! And they have mufflers between cars too.
New York's prewar subway cars had spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Their teeth are cut straight across, and while less expensive to manufacture, they are noisy. Most automobiles with manual transmissions have spur-cut reverse gears. Listen closely next time you back up and you'll hear the gears plainly.
Postwar cars beginning with the R-10s have helical-cut bull and pinion gears whose teeth are cut diagonally. More expensive to produce, but much quieter.
The Transit Museum has examples of prewar and postwar trucks, and the gears are plainly visible.
One of the nice things about working the older GE diesel loco's was that the diesel noise was not piercing in the cab and you could hear that same traction motor growl as I call it that the old MU cars made. Great. Even on the SD 40's [EMD] you could sometimes hear that sound..at speed often felt like a Low-V in heavyweight version.
"Do any of these 1938 Worlds Fair cars still exist ? "
Yes, only one survives. Right now it's in Coney island yard with the other unrestored museum cars. Some volunteers from Railway Preservation have been doing some work on it. It was repainted to stabilize any rust.
Bill "Newkirk"
Look around the rest of the site. You might find the Museum & Still Remaining Roster
Yeah, 5655 is one of them. the rest illustrated (other than 5686 in the 3rd avenue el consist) are all the "standard" Lo-V's ... the WF cars had a front destination sign up top whereas the regulars had the usual roofline and marker lights ... but thanks for the reminder that 5655 still lives somewhere. I shudder to think of what shape they're in though as when I rode them on the 3rd Avenue el, they were long in the tooth then. :)
Yep. Here's the only one I think, #5655. As you can see, it's in deplorable condition:
Low V Steinway and Low V Worlds Fair Cars are two different types of cars. The car you are talking about is not a Low V Steinway, this is a Low V Worlds Fair car. Low V Steinway cars (built around 1915)look like a regular Low V. Low V Worlds Fair cars (built in 1938) is the the car shown in the photograph. Both of these types of cars operated toghther on the Bronx part of the Third Avenue El. Everyone makes the same mistake.
The World's Fair Lo-Vs had the same gearing as the Steinways, didn't they? Otherwise, they couldn't m. u. together.
Yes they were compatible-MUable. They were also compatible for MU with conventional Low-V's but it wasn't normally done because of the difference in traction motors, would make for a lumpy acceleration I'd guess. Therefore there was no problem with adding Low-V trailers as was done on 3rd Ave.
1938 World's Fair, Conventional Steinways, and Low-V's could be MUed together; The Flivvers couldn't MU with others even though Low-V because of the different electric brake [same style as High V's--AMRE] but may have been able to if you didn't use electric brake [I won't swear to it]. The High-V's of course were also completely spearte fleet...if you tried to MU them you'd blow out all the control equipment on the Low-V's. But for shop moves they could be moved together air only with others.
Steinways were built in 3 orders, l9l5 Pressed Steel, l9l6 Pullman, and l925 ACF. Two other small groups were converted from trailers..both from Pullman orders, 4215-4222 from l9l5 and 4555-4576 from l9l6. BTW all IRT trailers were Pullman-built.
Ed ... just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate someone who knows them that far back. Those are details I never knew since I was born in 1951 and they were on their way out of the system at the time I was consciously riding them. THANKS for those morsels! :)
I thought of that after I hit POST on the original thread.
I was at Casto last Friday, when I pulled out of the back exit to third ave, I was what I think are Three Q-type Cars sitting there. They were painted Yellow work colors. Dose anyone know what type of cars are they.
Robert
"I was at Casto last Friday, when I pulled out of the back exit to third ave, I was what I think are Three Q-type Cars sitting there. They were painted Yellow work colors. Dose anyone know what type of cars are they."
Those are the old "reach" cars used with the old pump car. East New York Yard was its home for many years. The New pump train uses the R-62 body and R-17 or 22 cars as the "reach" cars.
REACH cars do the obvious, they have no running gear or electrical apparatus underneath and are backed into the flooded tunnel area. Hoses attached to the pump car are strung throughout the reach cars to the flooded area. I guess the other hoses are run up to the street to drain.
An IRT pump car is at Shore Line Museum (Branford) after leaving NYC 20 years ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
An IRT pump car is at Shore Line Museum (Branford) after leaving NYC 20 years ago.
We don't have a pump car. Maybe you mean supply car #53, which
was at some point during its career used to store hoses?
Those 3 Qs at 38 St are pretty well stripped of anything and
everything usable. The only things left worthwhile are the
trucks and maybe some brake rigging. The trucks are Peckham 40s.
Would those Peckham 40s be of any use to us for our el cars?
-Stef
It would be nice if that set could be restored as an operating Q or QX set...especiallly with the original trucks. They were an early example of Q's with the low rooves unfortunately; if nothing else salvaging those trucks sounds like a deal.I used to see them at East NY but can't remember now if there were 2 or 3 cars.
This particular set is beyond restoration unfortunately. It may look odd, but a Q Car - BU Car Lashup would work for a Transit Museum excursion if someone could fix 'em up (the ones at the Museum). Anything is possible.
-Stef
Unfortunately they are de-motored. Let's see if I can remember
all the truck swap details: The Qs were originally built from
two 1400 series motor cars and one 1200 series car. The 1200s
had the older Peckham 40 trucks. The 1400s had Peck40 trailer
trucks (shorter wheelbase) but ALCo motor trucks with WH300
motors. The 1200s became the center (trailer) car. The motor
trucks were either de-motored or replaced with trailer trucks,
and the group switch was removed. Some of the Peck40 motor trucks
filtered down to the older BUs, such as, I think the 600s.
In 1959, when the Qs were rebuilt for 3rd Ave el service, they
received the ex-"Composite" trucks, which were the 2nd-generation
trucks the composites got when they went up to the el in 1912.
They were maxi-traction designs with 1 puny 120hp motor on each
truck. This is the arrangement that the Qs retired with in 1969.
Those 3 cars down in the transit museum, then, have quasi-BU bodies
on top of last generation Q running gear.
In order to put those BQ cars back to authentic status, you'd have
to come up with three ALCo trucks, 6 WH300 motors, and 3 Peck40
trailer trucks. So, there is why the museum has a hold on those
cars...the trucks are worth something at least for that. They
could also be spare parts for 600, 1200 and 1300 series BU cars,
of which Branford currently has the only operational examples.
We already have one spare Peck40 trailer which is in use as a
shop truck right now.
JEFF H,
You're right, #53 is a supply car. Back in 1980 when the car was in Coney Island yard prior to shipment to Branford, I climbed aboard and noticed the racks that held the hoses.
Back to the Qs at 38th St. All six of these trucks are Peckam 40s, no Composite trucks at all ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They are the remnants of Q-cars (aka former Gate cars) that last saw service on the South Brooklyn Railway more than 25 years ago.
If my info is correct, they 'technically' belong to the Transit Museum as 'spare parts' cars for the Gate cars and the one Q on display at the museum.
BMTman
"last saw service on the South Brooklyn Railway more than 25 years ago."
I guess you mean last saw (revenue) service on the Myrtle Avenue "el". Or as "reach" cars for the pump train after retirement from the Myrtle Ave. "el". These cars were not assigned to South Brooklyn Railway. As far as "spare parts" for the museum cars, there isn't much in the way of "parts" to salvage. The cars are just being saved from scrapping until something can be donw with them. If you scrap them, they're gone for good, can't bring 'em back!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I don't know what other reason they'd be kept by the Transit Museum.
The metal (underside) is still there, so those parts are salvagable.
You're right about the last 'revenue' service. I was told they were used as rider cars on SBK in their last days of operation.
BMTman
"The metal (underside) is still there, so those parts are salvagable"
I guess you must mean salvagable for scrap maybe. As far as parts for the museum gate cars or Q type, nothing much in the way of spare parts.
Wht are the cars being saved ? Perhaps waiting for a rich benefactor to fund a restoration of the cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe the underframes and running gear could be used for replica cars.
http://www.metropla.net/am/america.htm
Links on top to other parts of the world
Near the 43rd street entrance to the Times Square shuttle (the original IRT entrance) there is a section of platform that has been visible but closed off for as long as I can remember - but for about a year was covered by blue wooden panels. Last week it was taken down to reveal that this closed off area has been renovated and cleaned up, and revealing what appears to be a shiny new set of stairs! So, will this be a new entrance to the shuttle? Where is this located on street level?
Thanks,
Ethan
I saw the blue plywood recently, but have to check this out. Before they erected that wall there, it was a long abandoned entrance to some building, but not sure what it was. If there are new stairs as you say, it probably may lead to the new Conde Nast building upstairs, but that's my guess on this.
Now that fenced off stairway going downstairs, that's a l o n g abandoned underpass for this station before it was a shuttle. Before they re-do the concrete floor on the other side of the underpass, check out the remnants in the concrete where the underpass was on the original "uptown" side of this IRT station. Also check out the glass "vault lights" embedded in the concrete that let light filter down to the underpass. If you stand there and look across you can make out where the underpass was situated. A little imformation tidbit for Kevin Walsh's Forgotten NY web page. Hurry Kevin, before this is sealed up for the station renovation !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
You can also see where the underpass is from the BMT Times Square station, which passes directly beneath the shuttle. Go to the northern end and look between the express tracks just outside the station. They spread apart to make room for the underpass.
Is this what causes the express tracks to "rise" to a higher level between 49th St. and Times Sq.?
That's a good question. I never noticed the express tracks being at a different level than the local tracks at that location. The express tracks do spread apart just outside the station, but they don't ramp up or down. I would assume all four tracks ramp up approaching 49th St. because it's directly beneath 7th Ave., being a local stop with no mezzanine.
The express tracks do "rise" (or the local tracks decline) between 49th and 42nd. I never understood why.
Only one local track--the southbound local ddeclines. (The others are level). I heard this is because the IRT Broadway line is right there, and they had to lower the track to be able to fit the line next to the other one.
Thanks for telling me.
Something else to check out next fall. It is a tight fit at Times Square.
I just looked closely at this tonight, and there are only about 3 steps and then a stainless steel door, and a red sign "Exit to 43rd Street". The new tiles on the wall make it look like a new passenger exit, but the small solid door looks like some sort of employee exit. It didn't say "emergency" exit, but that's what it seems like. By where it is located--right east of the exit near the police station, it would come up near the NASDAQ corner of the Conde Nast builing. I don't see them having a private exit just for people in that building.
The way NASDAQ's been doing lately, wouldn't surprise me if they needed armed escort out of the building and a private entrance to be whisked away through. :)
Nasdaq doesn't have any offices, just a big sign.
And NASDAQ's index has nothing to do with the organization, it's the membership.
It's a joke! It's a joke! Call the cops! It's a joke! :)
Like the new "handle" ... it's sorta cinema gothic ... kinda!
Seems pointless -- None of the people who held their NASDAQ tech stocks over the past 14 months can afford a Metrocard anymore :-)
Heh. The wife and I run a software company. We put our OWN money into it, worked our butts off, and it's shown a profit (however marginal) every day. We never did that fabled IPO either ... after all, we did all the work, we took all the risks, why would we POSSIBLY want to split up the outcome with others? NASDAQ is, and has always been, the "over the counter" market of pennystocks. Are folks REALLY that stupid? Whoops. Well, we're still making a profit though thanks to the current marketplace, nowhere near as much as we did. Nuclear brain science, I s'pose ... seems simple enough to me - if it's so slick, why ain't it rich? Sheesh. :)
Warning: Old timer alert! Heh.
Actually, the people who inflated those stocks are geniuses. They were able to make money off of nothing, and sell it, while the other idiots rode it out and their money went into wasted internet enterprise.
That's the way the stock market is. People making money off of other people's losses (do you think all that money just appears from nowhere?).
It also helped the internet develop at an astronomical rate.
It reminds me of old Coney Island in a way ... step right up ... step right up ... heh.
On Friday April 13th I went down to Philadelphia and while I was there I rode on the Market Street line from 5th Street to 69th Street of the Philadelphia subway system. The new Adtranz cars that they're using on that line are great. They're quiet, they're fast, they have comfortable seats and best of all they have a railfan window which you can sit down in front of. Instead of using door chimes they use a recorded female announcement that says "The Doors Are Now Closing." The cars are also kept in immaculate condition. There was almost no scratchitti.
Well I decided to go to Coney Island on Sunday and it was back to reality in the NYC subway system odor, rats and all. I took a No. 7 train from Grand Central to 5th Avenue and changed to a "D" train which I rode all the way to Coney Island. The consist was made up
of course with the R-68s which were referred to as the "Hippos" on the April Fool's Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred. I took the "D" train back from Coney Island to 42nd Street and took a No. 7 back to Grand Central. The "Hippos" are no match for the new Adtranz cars on the Philadelphia system.
If the NYCTA wanted to have a subway system that they could brag about they have to look no further than Philadelphia.
BMTJeff
I was in Philly the 13th too and also had my first ride at the M-4's railfan window. I didn't realize how tight things were in the subway, and realizing I was sitting directly above the rail was cool. Unfortunately, the car I was on #1186, was scratched all over. The sun was setting by the time we got to 46th, so instead of getting off at my stop at 52nd, I stayed on til 63rd to enjoy the view. One more thing about the seats, they're cool if you're under 170 lbs. I have to admit, although Almond Joys they ain't, the M4's are growing on me just a little.
I'm over 170 and I still love the seats. I guess it was because I grew up with the Almond Joys as old trains, but I love the M-4s much more than the Almond Joys. No squeaking and creaking and worrying if the doors are going to close on you and you don't have to look out the window to see where you are so you wouldn't get taken away. The seats are nicer and summers are cooler, and the railfan window is great when you are able to get it. The elevated tracks over market street have a great view of the Philadelphia cityline.
Yes, I like the M4's too. I like the modern look of the interior, the fact that they have a PA system and A/C and the padded forward-facing seats (which I've never seen vandalized). I like their railfan seat, just like what you get on PATCO and PATH trains. And they make those nice sounds as they enter and leave the stations. You do get a great view of the Philadelphia skyline from the Market Street el, but you also get a great view from the Frankford el. In fact, even now that they're the only cars operating on the Market-Frankford el, I still stay on just a little longer to appreciate them whenever I visit Philadelphia. Their nice, not Adtrash.
I certainly like the SEPTA M-4s better than the R-68s that are used on the "B", "D", and "N" lines of the New York City subway system.
BMTJeff
Jeff:
Thanks for the nice comments about our M-4 cars. It's a real treat
to sit at the railfan window and really see what's going on. The curve at 2nd street northbound is fun when you are at the railfan seat. Ther's a lot of work going on at the Frankford Terminal . Progress is being made to restore a rather cruddy terminal to something we can all enjoy and use.
Chuck Greene
I only wish that the New York City subway system had cars as nice as the SEPTA M-4s.
BMTJeff
So do I. But I think if the R142/142A's had padded forward-facing seats, they would be nicer than than the M4's.
How? I think they would be equal, if the M4 isn't still nicer.
Well the R142 would be nicer for train crews because of the wide cabs. But for us railfans, the M4 with its front railfan window is probably more appealing. So I guess the M4 would still be nicer then. Forgot about that railfan window.
Well, it's not just the rail fan window either, though. I mean, I guess it is nicer for train crews and such, but the interior just seems friendlier sorta on the M4s, and I feel really comfortable in riding them, and it's comfy cozy. Now, I've never ridden the R142s, but from the pictures I've seen, they don't seem comfy cozy at all.
I don't know about the train crew part - have you seen the interior of an M-4 cab? It's pretty comfy. It has a very thickly-padded seat that adjusts about a jazillion ways, dimmable indirect lighting, several adjustable visors and windowshades, and even a cup holder! From the pictures I've seen the R142 has half the cab amenities of an M-4.
I did notice some of the amenities in the cabs of the SEPTA M-4 subway cars. I don't think that ANY New York City subway car is as nicely appointed as the SEPTA M-4 cars. I also want to point that they don't have cars that seem as slow as the lumbering R-68s which are often referred to as the "Hippos".
BMTJeff
Say, if you want the M-4's, you can have them, in fact, let's trade, our M-4's for your Kawasaki R-142A's. It would be a better deal for me.
Are you kidding me? Those Kawasakis may last long and run well, but I would strongly dislike having them on the SEPTA rail fleet, particularly on a line that I actually use every once in a while. I would hate sitting on those benches staring at this stranger who would be staring at me. I would much rather prefer having those nice soft blue seats with those "L"s, and be able to look out the railfan window every once in a while.
So we just change the seats. I'll work out the details later.
watched at 9pm 4-17 1st. the top drug boss scams popeye he stays on train popeye does'nt. All signs say Grand Central station. Trailing car that the boss escapes on 6671. The lead car is 6609. This movie was released in 1971. Second part popeye chases assasin to Bay 50th st. station, El. posted on all signs. Popeye catches at 25ave. station after wild chase under El. The Lead car was 4572 which hits a layup on the center track. I guess this was in Brooklyn?
"Popeye catches at 25ave. station after wild chase under El. The Lead car was 4572 which hits a layup on the center track. I guess this was in Brooklyn? "
Yes it was in Brooklyn on the (B) West End Line. However if you look closly, the scene at 25th Ave which is a local station, the assassin gets on a train of R-32s that become R-42s for the colision at the next stop Bay Parkway. Of course not only does the R-32 become a R-42 but leaves the local track and appears on the center express track. Oh well, that's Hollywood for you!
Bill "Newkirk"
that conductor sure was clean. My old supt. would have been proud if he had (1) emp. that looked like him.
That was the actual conductor, too. The actor who was supposed to play the conductor didn't show up the day that scene was filmed, and it was done in one take. In addition, the motorman was the actual motorman.
The assassin actually does board an R-42. R-32s are visible as the train pulls into Bay-50th St., then again in the scene where the car collision takes place at Stillwell Ave. and 86th St.
Is anyone here a normal human being? Please tell me something about trains while im waiting for my personal request from David P.
Yes, it concerns everone. Thank You
What is wrong with you?
There are many threads that are "on-topic" In fact, many more than off-topic threads.
Not only that, but the current OT threads are clearly marked. JUST IGNORE THEM.
You, like all of the other self-appointed members of the topic police just want to be heard.
Or to say it another way .... just because the phone rings doesn't mean that you have to answer it ! When I suspect it's CRANK calling I just skip over it.
Mr t__:^)
Just to clear up any confusion that there may be, I'm not Rob King.
-Robert King
I've had many people over the years, including my wife and best friend, willing to put money on the fact that I am not normal.
Why not? They see an easy money making opportunity! :)
"Is anyone here a normal human being?"
OF COURSE WE'RE NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS......WE'RE RAILFANS !!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
WHATEVER
EVERONE HAS A RIGHT TO A OPINION.
AND I THINK GETTING BACK ON TOPIC WOULDN'T HURT
"EVERONE HAS A RIGHT TO A OPINION."
That's the second time you spelled "everyone" without a "y".
Maybe *ou should check the Y on your ke*board !
Bill "Newkirk"
Air horns swiped from deisel locomotives and vinatge CTA rolling stock tagged with graffiti. Chicago Tribune article.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's enough to make you sick.
Indeed.
But for the sake of argument, would graffiti on a musuem subway car actually make it more authentic? When the redbirds start arriving at museums, maybe they should hire some taggers to bomb the cars in order to re-create that "true" New York City subway feel. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I heard Phun Phactory is gonna do sumthin like that, im definetly on it then
THE FINAL INSULT !
I wonder if the same party thats wiped the air horns tagged the equipment ? Seems there is no longer any escape from the "real world" we live in.
Bill "Newkirk"
Foamers pay $500 apiece for a nice set of horns on eBay. A friend of mine who recently retired from CSX as an engineer told me about one of his last runs. He and his Conductor arrived at the engine only to find that someone had stolen the horn even though it had been only been a half hour since the previous crew had left the unit. the train was delayed several hours while the mechanical flying squad located another set of horns and replaced them. Foamers are the ENEMY of serious rail enthusiasts. Please help STOP foamers.
If no one claims responsibility for this within 24hrs I'll be honored to take responsibility for this, (even tho i never hit chicago)
Next thing you know, they'll put up a high fence topped with razor wire all the way around the museum grounds. It's a shame, but it's gotten to the point where you just can't trust anyone anymore.
A 15-year-old boy walking to work (part-time job) on the track wearing headphones was killed by a SEPTA R5 just west of Paoli station on Tuesday.
Heard on KYW newsradio. Detail-less blurb in early Inquirer.
Check this out. This site has more info about WMATA that nycsubway.org's pages miss somewhat concerning the WMATA Metrorail lines. It includes some good track maps, too.
WMATA as seen from a different prospective
The Washington Post has been running a series of special reports on WMATA lately.
--Mark
WCBS Newsradio 880 (nice station :-) is reporting that the LIRR admits a mistake, resulting in a recent derailment.
It's pointless for the LIRR to admit a mistake, because the LIRR is a mistake.
One thought that makes the LIRR a *bit* better ... you COULD be riding the Bee Line instead. :)
Here is another...
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/lirr418.htm
WABC-TV lead with this story "Live" yesterday 6pm news. The live report was from Huntington no where near the derailment "on this very line" went the reporter.
Another needless LIVE Leadin that TV does but that is another story.
Like admitting a mistake will bring them forgiveness and salvation. Reminds me of a few years ago when Prendergast fired the top 3 in the signal department for falsifying safety records, or putting known defective track down in Mineola.
One more reason to fire the whole lot of them and merge them into Metro North. We wouldn't have had boondoggles like Super Steel lemons and bi-level cars.
According to the CFR (Section 213.9) regarding Railroad track - track designated for passenger service at speeds up to 60 MPH is Class 3 track and track for speeds up to 80 MPH is class 4 track. The section in question was likely class 3 since MAS in that area is 60 MPH.
Per CFR 213.53 all track must gauge at least 4'8 1/2" but class 2 & 3 may gauge out to 4' 9 3/4" and class 4 & 5 can gauge out to 4' 9 1/2". If I read the CBS News radio 88 piece correctly, they said that the track was 1" out of gauge. If this was so - then the track was within gauge when inspected. If it was 1" beyond class 3 standards, someone screwed up - big time. Before we start calling for heads, this discrepancy should be cleared up.
What I heard on one of the channel 2 4 or 7 was that LIRR regs are more stringent than FRA and they broke their own rule.
Unless you are talking about special work (turnouts and crossovers)
being 1" wide is not going to cause a problem. There is still
a lot of tread left on the rail...it isn't going to fall in.
But, that wide gauge usually points to another problem, like
rotten tie condition, and if the track is on a curve, it can spread
enough from lateral forces to cause a derailment.
Railpace says:
LIRR OFFICIALS WERE AWARE OF TRACK DEFECT:
One week before a LIRR train derailed east of the Greenlawn Station on January 24, 2001, officials of the rail road were aware of a defect in the track according to an internal report obtained by NEWSDAY. The rails were 1.12" farther apart than they should have been , greater than the LIRR's own standards of 1". While the Federal Railroad Administration's standards allow for a variance of 1.25", the LIRR has always used a stricter standard, particularly since the DE30 and DM30 locomotives each weigh 295,000 lbs. as compared with 268,500 lbs. for the older GP38-2s. At Greenlawn, it was a pair of wheels of the lead truck of the locomotive that derailed. None of the 135 passengers were hurt. As a result of the three-month investigation, the LIRR has speeded up repair schedules and has tightened its safety standards, allowing the rails to be only .75" off gauge. (Steve Benkovitz - posted 4/18)
All this may be true but as Jeff correctly points out, in the absence of another defect such as rotted ties or missing spikes, the 1" out of gauge would not have caused the problem.
Did the rails simply spread or did the rail roll? My original point stands. We need a lot more info before anyone , especially here, should be calling for heads to roll.
do anybody have any picture of 1001 market-frankford evel train.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pease out
do anybody have any picture of 1001 market-frankford evel train.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pease out
Excuse me, but all of this debate over the former Roman Province of Judea DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH TRANSIT!
I have some inyerest, some opinions which I would be willing to share in a more appropriate forum. MEANWHILE, go ride a train!
Thank you! One thing this thread's done for me is make me feel a whole lot less guilty for my own past kibbitzing here. At least I mentioned something at least vaguely related to chewchoos ... I'm ... vindicated! (however briefly) ...
But talk about your THIRD RAILS ... yipe.
There is a broader issue, and it goes beyond this board. NY politicians can get away with high taxes, lousy schools, and not building the Second Avenue Subway (and I-86, etc, etc). Why? People find those issues boring, but get all fired up about these "tribal" issues, and go out and re-elect the same weasel Republican or Democrat to state office as a result.
Even on this board, if you want a long thread mention race, class, religion, ethnicity, etc. And I'd say people here are MORE likely to be interested in OTHER issues than your average NY Post reader.
I'm not saying those tribal issues are unimportant, but they tend to go round and round and not end up anywhere. State and local governments collect taxes and provide services. We're getting ripped off. The MTA has been sunk into debt, and we haven't gotten the investments we need. That's the real issue.
It was the independant kingdom of Judea 1000 years before it was a Roman Province.
But anyways...
I believe there may be rail transit in the current state of Israel. When I was in the beautiful City of Haifa 4 years ago, I heard something about the Carmelit (sp?): a limitted rail transit system making stops along the slope of Mt. Carmel. I had no opportunity to investigate. Could someone here provide more information?
MATT-2AV
MetroPlanet has a page on the Haifa system. Click here.
Mark
Haifa's funicular system looks like a very interesting, though small system. The cars are distinctive and nice-looking. I wonder if they'll expand Haifa's subway. I think other Israeli cities should have rail transit systems too. I heard that Tel Aviv and Jerusalem proposed light-rail systems. Does anybody know the latest news about the proposed light-rail systems?
It exists. Very unique. 6 stations, each the exact same distance apart served by two trains on one track. Stairs are located on the platforms and in the trains themeslves. No handicapped access.
Actually, it looks a lot like the refurbished furnicular that runs to the top of Victoria in Hong Kong: same inclined platforms etc, two trains sharing one track, with the passing section in the middle being controlled by a double flange on the outside wheel (no switches).
John.
Apparantly the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad had been giving their employees. The article is at:
http://cbc.ca/cp/world/010418/w041843.html
I saw part of the interview with the former BN employee on this morning's ABC News. Very interesting and a real eye-opener.
I bet lots of companies do the same thing.
BMTman
I read the article in the local paper [this used to be BN - BNSF country before they sold the line] I used to work for BN before Montana Rail Link took over and can remember when they hired known drug users. Now they're trying to be selective about people who are genetically injury-prone. This is Communism. Things have gone too far.
May's edition of Gourmet has an interesting report on the 7 train and the neighborhoods it serves. Not surprisingly, the focus in on the myriad ethnic eateries along the line, but there is a short but interesting description of the line itself. The article describes the creaky old trains, though not using the name "Redbird," and the view of Manhattan from Long Island City.
The "7" train is aNational Millenium Trail. It is, truly, America's Subway Line.
Try telling that to John (off his) Rocker.:-)
The Times ran a very similar article, back when their lead restaurant critic was Ruth Reichel. The editor of Gourmet magazine these days is... Ruth Reichel.
I love the (7)! I rode it today! I've made my case for the Flushing IRT before, and certainly it is a well-praised line. But I also want to say: I took that route as a treat instead of the usual Queens Blvd, and I actually got excited by my morning commute! New York City is everywhere you look! What a sense of place! This line makes me love Queens, makes me proud to live there.
Ironically we have partly John Rocker to thank for putting the (7) on the map. I used to say that if he rode the line, they'd find his remains on Roosevelt Avenue. But the wonderful thing about New York is that that wouldn't actually wouldn't happen. Even if he was ranting about every creed he found objectionable, pointing fingers at indivisduals, he'd most likely get ignored---exactly what he deserves!
:-) Andrew
In a similar vein, there is a wonderful article in last month's Preservation Magazine (by the National Trust) which documented the same sort of immigrant-teeming vital neighborhood and the train which serves it: Chicago's Northwest EL line which meanders through a similar area as Flushing. Both are perfect examples of why cities and their transportations systems are symbiotic and forever vital (as usually only Europeans understand and only SOMETIMES seen in America).
I don't know about any of you but I'm looking forward to the upcoming Subtalk trip to Washington D.C. in the worst way. Not until I met Bruce Moffat in Chicago last summer had I ever spoken to anyone interested in Mass Transit and so I figure that I'll have a lot to learn when I spend a day with my fellow Subtalkers. You see, even though I'm writing books on the subject and have been following it for over thirty years, I realize that there's a lot I about urban transport that I simply do not know. In a way then this trip will be similar to "going to school" in that I'll be around a bunch of people who are a whole lot more knowledgeable about transit than I am. So if you haven't decided whether or not you want to make the trip, do so. I promise you that it will be well worth the time and expense.
Eric D. Smith
I don't know about any of you but I'm looking forward to the upcoming Subtalk trip to Washington D.C. in the worst way. Not until I met Bruce Moffat in Chicago last summer had I ever spoken to anyone interested in Mass Transit and so I figure that I'll have a lot to learn when I spend a day with my fellow Subtalkers. You see, even though I'm writing books on the subject and have been following it for over thirty years, I realize that there's a lot I about urban transport that I simply do not know. In a way then this trip will be similar to "going to school" in that I'll be around a bunch of people who are a whole lot more knowledgeable about transit than I am. So if you haven't decided whether or not you want to make the trip, do so. I promise you that it will be worth the time and expense.
Eric D. Smith
Mayoral candidate Mark Green joined G train advocates handing out leaflets at Queens Plaza on Tuesday.
Daily News story.
OK, we went through this two months ago with the Manny B switch protest, and I'll ask the same thing:
And Mark Green's answer to the problem is????
As public advocate, he can afford to just pass out leaflets (how many trees in the world have died so Mark Green can pass out leaflets?), and advocate that the G line not be cut back. But as a candidate for mayor, what would he do about the situation if elected? Demand the MTA extend the G back to Continental? Cut the proposed V service? Build a new platform for the G at Queens Plaza? What?
The MTA should explore any an all options for allowing G riders continued access at least to QP, and its nice that at least Green -- or someone in his campaign -- acknowledges the problem. But as was the case with his Manny B leaflet assault on downtown Brooklyn, Mark is quick to protest the problem and gather publicity, but not so quick to actually have someone within his campaign give him some suggestions about what to do about the problem (though he did eventually come up with the DeKalb-to-Grand shuttle bus idea for the Manny B, apparently after it was pointed out the bridge situation was DOT's doing, not the MTA's).
Mark Green, eh? I'd say if he gets involved in anything, that anything is in for a potful of hurt. Of course, he does have a point about the G train. To terminate it at Court Square is the height of lunacy. You better be in good shape to get to the next train you want to take because it;s a helluva haul.
One nagging question keeps popping into my ead whenever I encounter this debate: Why must G service access Queens Plaza? Manhattan-bound trains can be accessed at the new terminal at Court Sq. Doesn't any politician have the testicles to tell G riders to cease their whining?
Have you walked through the transfer from Court Square to 23/Ely? You're asking the commuters from the G to give up their same platform transfer (or at worst up and down the stairs to access the opposite direction) and, to instead, walk through a lengthy passageway.
Yes I have used that transfer. You're telling me we should run the G line all the way to Forest Hills just so some people won't have to walk a little bit?
What an indefensible argument that is. Any other ones?
What line do you live on? If it's not the G or the Eastern div., you probably have a one seat ride to midtown and other places, and simple across the platform transfers as options to get to another part of midtown, or to the busy Queens corridor, etc.
Just imagine if they cut this line somewhere, and not only did it add an additional transfer, but also necessitated a long walk? And you figure "walking and getting up and changing several times is no big deal; good exercise, etc"; but then you try to bring your family or friends into the city, and they don't want to be bothered with that. (They are "whiners" like the people you answer, or are "tired", or maybe have children, etc.). Then, your close loved one (wife, etc) begins pushing "we've got to get a car", and you don't want that headache, (especially as a transit fan). Or they push you to pay $10 or more for car service.
Welcome to the Greenpoint/Bushhwick/Rigewood area. This area, the actual middle of the city, is already isolated enough. We do not need another obstacle like that, when we've got enough.
In all of that, I forgot to mention the TIME factor, which actually is more important than the physical work of climbing and walking.(which didn't bother me much until I got older and married and had to be places in certain amounts of time). You figure you already waited a certain amount of time to catch the fist train. With each additional transter, you're adding dwell time for a whole new line, with whatever problems it may be experiencing. Plus, it also takes time to walk though a long transfer like that. They may hold trains for an across the platform transfer or schedule a connection, but they don't hold them to give people time to walk through a passage, and they don't consider such transfers in the schedule, so it is a big incovenience. I had to use that to get home from my Census job a year ago, and it was hard to tell which was worse--going one stop for the transfer, or just walking from Queens Plaza to Court Sq. (pretty desolate at night). I found the quickest way home was to take the B61 to the L, as slow as that was! How much different if the G was still terminating at Queens Plaza.
The proof of this transfer time factor is the fact that is is taking me almost as long to get from Ridgewood to the Jamaica yard as it does to get to Coney Island or 207th St--both of which can be reached (on weekdays) with one simple direct transfer. And then there's the headache of getting home from my parent's house on Roosevelt Island. Once again, it would be easier and quicker with the G running to Queens. Who wants to be out there going through passages and waiting for several trains or buses at night? (luckily my family usually has pity and gives us a lift, otherwise it's a $13 car service ride). It could take up to an hour and a half to make that trip (back when the G did go to QP, but there was no unlimited metrocards or bus train transfers, and I didn't want to spend two fares)
It seems the transit in this area was designed for peoplw who have alot of free time on their hands. (Perhaps it developed around the factory workers years ago who went to the factories and did little else). But things have changed, and the people over here have lives and need decent access in reasonable time just like anyone else, so it's highly unfair to call people lazy whiners!
(You figure you already waited a certain amount of time to
catch the fist train. With each additional transter, you're adding dwell time for a whole new line, with whatever problems it may be experiencing. Plus, it also takes time to walk though a long transfer like that.)
A good point. Moreover, it's different transfering at a Manhattan trunk station -- where any one of two or three different lines may take you where you want to go -- and transferring in the outer boroughs. Queens Plaza has more trains.
(I had to use that to get home from my Census job a year ago.)
Did you actually work for the Bureau? I worked for the City checking up on the census, and I was disappointed by the results. Based on the data I saw, my motto was "8.2 million or we sue." We only got 8.0, although I hear an adjustment would add another 200,000.
2 of the 3 Manhattan-bound lines which you can get at Queens Plaza can be accessed at 23rd/Ely. No one headed into Manhattan will be cut off from access. LOL.
(2 of the 3 Manhattan-bound lines which you can get at Queens Plaza can be accessed at 23rd/Ely. No one headed into Manhattan will be cut off from access. LOL)
Two of the three Manhattan bound lines (ie. the expresses) are so jammed that G riders do not have access at rush hour. I suspect that it is to give G riders a the possibility of boarding the third train that the whole V to 53rd, F to 63rd shuffle is going on.
In an ideal world, this should be done. But we don't live in one. The V line will hardly be filled to crush capacity at 23rd/Ely anyway. All G riders will get a train into Manhattan.
Perhaps these G riders should do the commute my friend from work has to endure daily: 2 subway rides to Jamaica and a bus from Jamaica to Springfield Gardens. I'm sure he'd gladly accept any of the "monstrous inconviences" G riders will face.
Besides whining about a walk, no other argument against the current plan has yet to be offered.
That's just what I've compared this part of the city to: Springfield Gardens, or Rosedale, or something else like that. Recall that what you describe sounds alot like my trips to Roosevelt Island or Jamaica. Those areas (Spfld Gdns, etc) are like that because they are far out at the edge of the city and have no subway lines. There is no reason why areas so close in with subway lines should be like that. And adding a long passage walk could be like the straw that broke the camel's back. It may sound small by itself, but when taken with all the other obstacles this area faces (including the G.O.s), it is too much.
Oh stop it. It's not too much. The incessant whining about this topic never ends. G riders will have to get used to the new configuration. If they don't like it, they can move.
>It's not too much. If they don't like it, they can move.
How can you speak for those who have to go through it like that? Unless you move— over there and see what it's really like: more time in travelling short distances; no connections held; the old, people with carriages, limited alternatives.
Perhaps we should just suggest increasing B-61 service which follows the G loosely and would take them right to Queens Plaza. Maybe then they could shut the whole line down if they wanted.
I understand the inconvienence the new transfer will be. So what? Let the people adjust to the new realities. Why are we all contemplating all kinds of reroutes and extensions of lines to accomodate those who already have subway service, but who are too damned lazy to walk farther between transfers?
BTW, I ride the J and I demand the MTA build a spur up 87th St. from Jamaica Ave. so I don't have to walk 2 blocks to get my train!
But if they had one and took it down, then you might feel differently
Yeah. And I'd be wrong. So don't pander to me. I'll adjust.
Forces passengers to climb many steps, which is a problem for some people with medical conditions that make stair climbing difficult. On the other hand, passengers who like to bitch about things are using the occaision to advantage.
Daily News story
And you have to remember that the Court St. esculators are BACKWARDS. Going from upper to lower the down esculator is on the left!! >G<
>>> Forces passengers to climb many steps, which is a problem for some people with medical conditions that make stair climbing difficult. <<<
The Daily News story indicates that there is a working "down" escalator at the same location. Is it possible that the TA was so stupid that they installed unidirectional escalators? If not, why isn't the only operational escalator moving in the ascending direction?
Tom
Is there such a thing as uniderectional escalators? I think that every escalator has the ability to muve up or down. What doesn't make sense is that the only working motorstair was running in the descending direction. Why couldn't they make that the ascending motorstair, and force everyone who wanted to descend take the stairs? That'd make more sense.
What doesn't make sense is that the only working motorstair was running in the descending direction.
I'm going to rub my hands with petroleum jelly after I cover my wound with an adhesive bandage. After that, I'll sit down with a nice cup of fruit-flavored gelatin and I'll forget about all that transparent tape I lost.
Except that Escalator is no longer a trademark of the Otis Elevator Company.
Restored Car 76 puts Scranton back on track
By JEFF DEAN
Times Leader Correspondent
SCRANTON - To about a million little kids out there - and probably just as many adults - Ken
Lucas just landed the world's best job.
Beginning Wednesday, Lucas will take the helm of the first electric trolley car to run in Scranton
for nearly 50 years.
As part of the Electric City Trolley Station & Museum's ongoing effort to revive the history of
"electric traction" trains, or trolleys, Lucas will act as motorman on Car 76 as it makes 30 weekly.
Copywrite Disclaimer: The above part of an article was lifted from an e-mail sent to me. I've identified the source publication & author and quoted less then 400 words.
BTW, this first 1 1/2 mile of the 10 or so intendend mile line only will go to the entrace of the Laurel Line tunnel. #26 is a Center Door trolley from 1926. AND they are right next to Steam Town USA. So you might want to consider making a day of it this Summer. I did a last year and included some AA baseball & a mine tour too.
P.S. I have nothing to do with this organization, am just happy thay they finally got the trolley line in operation.
Mr t__:^)
runs up and down a 1-1/2-mile stretch of the historic Laurel Line.
This flood as far as I know took place in the late '80s. I don't know much of what happened, as I wasn't using the subways, but I know there were severe reroutings. Could someone tell me where the flood took place, what services were cut off, etc? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
I was riding the LIRR. As u all know their Trains are VERY different from the Subway. One thing that remains the same is the stupidity of the customers. In the Subway u have people asking is this an E or F when the Sign is right there. And When at Flatbush Terminal recently, someone asked me which way is the Train going when the Bumper block was right there! arghhhhh
Maybe they wanted to know the destination.
How about when the IND "D" Train was first extended to Coney Island via Culver. People used to show up on Track D on a Sunday, which took them straight to Franklin Avenue.
I can't really call it stupid because it had some logic to it. The thing which bugged me was that when you told them where the D train actually was (Tracks E and F) they would argue with you.
After several years of this they changed the tracks at C.I. from A-H to 1-8 for the public signs.
I just stumbled upon a new book titled "Tunneling to the Future: The Story of the Great Subway Expansion that Saved New York". (ISBN # 0814719104) It was written by Peter Derrick, an Archivist for the Bronx Historical Society. The book is 384 pages and on Amazon & Borders.com the reviews look favorable and the excerpts look solid. Now I know that it sounds crazy for a writer to promote his competition but I figure that since books on rapid transit are so rare, that it is in our collective best interest to promote all of them as best we can. The cover has a picture of a Dual Contract El under construction and the price is between $27.00 and $37.00. Check it out. I know I will.
Eric Dale Smith
I'm about halfway through the book, with an eye to reviewing it soon at rapidtransit.net.
As far as I've gotten it has similarities to Clifton Hood's 722 Miles, reviewed here.
Mr. Derrick goes further than Mr. Hood in outlining the desire to reduce dangerous congestion in Lower Manhattan as a motive in increasing subway building. He notes that the Lower East Side was the most densely populated place in the entire world. In fact, almost half the book contains the pre-history of subway building and discussion of overcrowding.
He adds to Hood's descriptions of the machinations of the IRT to attempt to keep the subway pie to itself. He describes the Triborough System (really the original plan for an independent city-owned subway) and how the IRT tried to get parts of it for itself at the same time it blocked building of the rest.
I suspect to have some quibbles of emphasis, but, as I say, I've still got half the book to read.
I expect to report that those railfans with a deep interest in the political background of NYC's subway building will want both works (Derrick and Hood) if they can hack the price for books spare on illustrations.
The political book I'd like to see written is about why NY City and State have been unable to build anything significant for 30 years. Perhaps it could be called "The Powerless Broker," or something. The contrast between what was accomplished in 1913 and what is accomplished today -- in all manner of public services -- is mindblowing. And the city was poorer, taxes were lower, and there was no help from the federal government.
The only explanation I've heard is that the cost of rebuilding transit infrastructure in a crowded city is much higher than the cost of building new (set up, work a little, close down, set up again). But the Second Avenue Subway would be new. And did they keep those Els running while rebuilding them to subway standards?
One of the problems, Larry, is that in a way Bob Moses was right -- He hated building tunnels over bridges because nobody can see a tunnel's entire scope, while a bridge's magestry is there for all to view.
Aside from the NIMBYs, feather bedding cost overruns and siphoning construction funds off on other projects, the fact is most politicians see a subway line as a non-immediate gratfication public works project, where all the inconvienence of torn-up streets, redirected traffic and lost buisness will happen on their watch, while the lavish grand opening and praise by the public for the project will happen on some other schmuck's watch. And unlike the superstructure of a new bridge (or the shell of a new public-financed Olympic Stadium), all they have to point to to the voters is a big hole in the ground while the project is in its early stages.
You would think by now that the level of tolerance on the East Side has been reached, and people would be so sick of crowding on the Lex that they would welcome the sight of Second Ave. subway construction work, even if it means a half-decade or more of disruptions. Maybe they do, but we'll see if the next mayor and the current or next governor think there's enough voter profit from the project to warrant having the MTA sink real money into it.
The political book I'd like to see written is about why NY City and State have been unable to build anything significant for 30 years. Perhaps it could be called "The Powerless Broker," or something. The contrast between what was accomplished in 1913 and what is accomplished today -- in all manner of public services -- is mindblowing. And the city was poorer, taxes were lower, and there was no help from the federal government.
The only explanation I've heard is that the cost of rebuilding transit infrastructure in a crowded city is much higher than the cost of building new (set up, work a little, close down, set up again). But the Second Avenue Subway would be new. And did they keep those Els running while rebuilding them to subway standards?
There are a lot of answers to your question. I'll just mention a few.
The City blew a lot of its wad (the rapid transit debt load) in building the Independent System and by destroying the private companies which, among other things, were a major source of capital for subway building.
The most desired lines now (including Second Avenue) are breathtakingly expensive. One reason is that you have greater underground infrastructure (water, electric, optical cable, you-name-it) which must reroute than 100 years ago.
Construction costs are higher because of all the usual suspects.
The City had to play a lot of catch=up ball to simply bring the system up to "a state of good repair" because of the disastrous deferred maintenance policies of the '50s and '60s followed by the financial crisis.
The City could better afford to go into debt to build transit infrastructure because building lines into (relatively) virgin territory improved the taxable property base. How many lines inside the City could you name now which would increase density and property values and so enhance tax rolls?
Dare I say that we don't have a McAneny, a Mitchel, a Parsons, a Williams, and many others with vision? Hell, we don't even have a Hylan or Walker.
And don't forget the amount of social spending compared to 100 years, city and state.
What about the cost of lawsuits (compare litigiiousness in 1913 vs. today).
A piece of the puzzle, of course, not the whole thing.
The political book I'd like to see written is about why NY City and State have been unable to build anything significant for 30 years. Perhaps it could be called "The Powerless Broker," or something. The contrast between what was accomplished in 1913 and what is accomplished today -- in all manner of public services -- is mindblowing. And the city was poorer, taxes were lower, and there was no help from the federal government.
To name the more likely culprits:
Tax-revenue-hogging health care and social services.
Meddlesome politicians.
NIMBY's.
Greedy unions.
Eco freaks.
Brain-dead bureaucrats.
The contrast between what was accomplished in 1913 and what is accomplished today -- in all manner of public services -- is mindblowing.
And yet, the similarities between the environment when the Dual System was built, and today, are also eerie. Ridership is way up. Immigration is way up relative to recent years. New immigrants are slowly making their way to the subway suburbs established when the Dual System lines opened. Many of the subway suburbs themselves have changed very little in recent years. There is much talk about building new infrastructure. Derrick also talks a bit about the fact that the subway system, for the most part, looks the same today as it did in 1948 (without the famous Els of course).
did they keep those Els running while rebuilding them to subway standards?
Amazingly, yes. Also, the Contract One subway remained open while the "H" system was built and it took a weekend (I think) to sever the connection from Park Ave South to 42nd St and connect the Lex to today's alignment. Amazing if you ask me.
--Mark
--Mark
[The only explanation I've heard is that the cost of rebuilding transit infrastructure in a crowded city is much higher than the cost of building new (set up, work a little, close down, set up again). But the Second Avenue Subway would be new. And did they keep those Els running while rebuilding them to subway standards?]
With the City budget alone at $39 billion, there should be plenty of money to build subways, schools, etc. I think the differences are that in 1913 the City and State didn't have vast expenses for social expenditures; astronomical taxes, rent control, corrupt construction unions, and lousy schools didn't drive business and middle class residents to other regions; and municipal unions hadn't become working class aristocracies whose members earn much more than the non-unionized workers who, then as now, made up a significant percentage of the City's population.
Good thinking. You might consider that London has just or is building yet an extension thru an area which is pretty complex construction [the Jubilee line I believe], other European cities have built new subways, even some medium size cities for their light rail lines to get them off the streets in the center city.
I won't mention LA's boondoggle but Chicago has some recent mass [rail]transit accomplishments even if they've been quite simple to build.
New York is still #1 in my book but I don't know what their problem is in getting these new lines that are needed. Perhaps your post is the answer.
[I won't mention LA's boondoggle but Chicago has some recent mass [rail]transit accomplishments even if they've been quite simple to build. New York is still #1 in my book but I don't know what their problem is in getting these new lines that are needed. Perhaps your post is the answer.]
I think a comparison between the cost of building the boondoggle subway in LA and the anticipated cost of the Second Avenue subway in New York says it all -- $250 million per mile in LA, more than $1 billion per mile in New York. So does a comparison of Medicaid expenses -- something like 2-1/2 times as much per capita in New York as in LA and Chicago (someone correct me if my figures are wrong, I haven't checked my references), but with no more actually going to doctors. We really seem to be the all-time champions at this sort of stuff. It comes I think of a time when the City was the largest in the world and the State the largest in the country, and together they were fabulously wealthy. That ended long ago, but like a rich family just fallen on hard times, we haven't quite learned to live within our means.
>>> So does a comparison of Medicaid expenses -- something like 2-1/2 times as much per capita in New York as in LA and Chicago <<<
Please do not look at L.A. to compare medicaid. The California version (Medical) is a scandal. The payments to doctors are so low and so slow, that most doctors will not accept new Medical patients. They claim the reimbursement (approximately 25% of the prevailing rate received more than 6 months later) will not even pay their overhead of running the office so they lose money on each visit.
Most of the few doctors that do accept Medical run factory like clinics which see patients on an assembly line basis and are more interested in getting more and more patients through the doors whether they are sick or not. There have been TV exposes of clinics sending vans out to poor areas and welfare offices and paying people to get in and come to the clinic.
Tom
Please do not look at L.A. to compare medicaid. The California version (Medical) is a scandal. The payments to doctors are so low and so slow, that most doctors will not accept new Medical patients. They claim the reimbursement (approximately 25% of the prevailing rate received more than 6 months later) will not even pay their overhead of running the office so they lose money on each visit.
The essential point is that Medicaid expenditures are not
bankrupting California. New York's not so lucky.
[The essential point is that Medicaid expenditures are not bankrupting California. New York's not so lucky.]
Also, from what I understand, New York doesn't pay its doctors any more than other states -- the money goes, er, elsewhere.
A bit of old news. The Transit Museum had a reception and book signing back on March 8, 2001.
From AZ Republic 04/18/01
Phoenix City Council endorses 16 light-rail stops
As expected, the Phoenix City Council on Tuesday unanimously endorsed 16 of the 18 proposed light-rail stops along Phoenix's 13-mile corridor.
The location of a train stop at Chris-Town Mall and either 12th or 16th streets will be decided next month.
Construction of the initial 20.3-mile segment is expected to begin in 2003 and be completed in late 2006. It would run from the Chris-Town area in north-central Phoenix to about a mile into Mesa.
From When To When did The A Train Terminate at EUCLID AVE? and When GRANT AVE And The connection To BMT FULTON STREET EL?
Thanks
Euclid Avenue A Train
If you look on this site in the timeline for the history of the IND, the Fulton St line was extended to Euclid on 11/28/48 and to Lefferts on 4/29/56.
Today while is was on th "L" I sawthe pair the 4436&4439. The draw bar looked bran new, so I guest that they weree just put together. Any info about them, let us know.
Robert
What a "baster" pair? Did it run over a turkey?
LOL :-)
LOL :-)
That mixed marriage or as otherwise known as a "bastard" pair resulted from a crash at Bushwick/Aberdeen on the L line a few years back. 4427 and 4428 were decommisioned as a result. That "new" drawbar could have been a replacement as a result of an inspection.
Thanks for the spelling correction. It is not my best thing.
Robert
I recently got me filthy mits on a NYCTA Rule Book c.1944, and found some very interesting things in it.
For example, in 1944:
When approaching a work gang, the T/O (actually then a Motorman or M/M, but to avoid confusion, we'll stick to T/O) gave 2 SHORT whistles as opposed to today's 2 long.
The majority of signals are referred to as "B division signals". Actually, they should be called "IND signals". The BMT used a different version of signals which I'll get into later. Also the "Old IRT" signals as we call them today used to be called "Dyre Avenue Line" signals. They were also referred to as signals on the Dyre Avenue-East 174th Street route.
Approaching DeKalb Avenue heading towards Coney Island, (not including call-ons here) there used to be a signal (BMT style) that had three aspects over four aspects (today's have three over three). You could get a bottom green (Brighton Line), a bottom yellow (4th Av Line), or a bottom BLUE! This one would put you on the DeKalb express track. Remember, there was no 6th Av side of the Bridge back then so I could imagine that the whole track layout at DeKalb Av was much different back then.
On the IRT, call-on signals did not exist (except on the Dyre Av Line). Trip keys were issued for this purpose in which the T/O or C/R would go down to the tracks, insert a trip key and turn it to lower the stop arm.
Did you know that certain signals used to have PURPLE aspects? They were on a no longer used IRT signal called "Section Block Signals". SBS's were activated in the event that 3rd rail power was cut off on the next set of tracks. The underground SBS's were operated similarly to the current IRT Gap Filler Signals. The elevated semaphore SBS's gave a purple aspect when clear.
Some long forgotten types of signals:
You're all familiar with signs in the tunnel such as R-10 on a green background (resume speed-10 cars), or 15 miles on a yellow background (speed limit sign). Well, did you know that in the IND there used to be a "C" sign which was a black letter on a white background (the same as the car stop markers in a station). The C was a speed limit sign and stood for "coast".
In the BMT, not all signals included a yellow call-on aspect. Some signals had a white sign that would light up that would say "Proceed Caution" which was also a call-on aspect. The sign would be below either both heads of the home signal (as is with today's call-on), or between the two heads.
Holding lights on the Dyre Av Line would use red colored bulbs.
An S-20 sign (black letters on white background) stood for "Reduce Speed". These signs were used only on elevated structures on the IRT (except Dyre Av).
There used to be "four headed monsters" on the IRT (exc.Dyre). The bottom (4th) head used to stand for "Proceed With Caution at Slow Speed". It would be either R/R/Y/Y or R/R/R/Y. There was no green aspect available on the third and fourth heads.
Pocket signals on the IRT were signals that showed whether there was a train partially occupying a track in a terminal. A double yellow signal which looked like two gap filler signals without the white clear box, or a "R/R/R/lit sign saying Train In Station" would both mean "Proceed With Caution-Station Track Occupied". A single yellow signal or an ordinarily clear signal would mean "Proceed-Station Track Unoccupied". Semaphores were also used in this instance. They'll be discussed below.
Semaphore signals:
I remember that semaphores were discussed a few weeks back, but there wasn't a whole lot of info available. Hopefully, this post could answer a few of those questions. Semaphores were not used on the IND.
Semaphores were signals that would give their indications by day by the position of arms extending to the right of the mast, and in addition at night by lights of prescribed colors.
On the IRT and BMT, semaphores gave their daytime indications with "square end blades" on all signal masts. They were colored red with a white stripe and actually looked rectangular.
On the IRT division, square end blades were used, but in addition a red blade that came to a point (with a white chevron stripe) was also used for the same purpose. However, the second mast (showing direction) had a yellow "fishtail" with a black chevron stripe on most signals. Some used the above IRT/BMT style blades. Three headed semaphores were also used with some of them taking the looks of dwarf signals! Some regular semaphores had three standard masts, some had two standard masts and one mast that looked like a semaphore dwarf signal. The third mast used the square end blade type of signal.
Here are some semaphore type interlocking (home) signals given:
BMT semaphores:
Square end blades for all BMT instances: Green(G)=vertical, Red(R)=horizontal. Yellows were only used on Interlocking Dwarf Signals in the BMT.
Stop and Stay--R/R (Red over Red)
Proceed with Caution on Main Route--G/R.........Diverging Route-R/G
On Interlocking Dwarf Signals, Yellow with a vertical blade meant "Proceed with Caution".
IRT semaphores: Diag=Diagonal and Horiz=Horizontal. Vertical blades were not used.
Stop and Proceed as per rule--R/Y with both blades horizontal. This would only show on a special two headed mast signal that was treated as an automatic signal. This signal was identified with a T plate (example:703 over T).
Stop and Stay (home signals)--all Red or R/Y (or R/Y/R) with all blades horizontal. These signals were identified with an X plate (like today).
Proceed with Caution on Main Route with Next Signal at Stop--G diag over Y horiz----------or G diag over Y horiz over R horiz on 3 headed signals.
Proceed with Caution over Diverging route--R horiz over G diag--------or R horiz over G diag over R horiz---------or R horiz over Y horiz over G diag.
Proceed with Caution at Slow Speed--R horiz over R horiz over G diag (either regular or bottom dwarf)-------R horiz over G diag dwarf. Dwarf home signals were also used for this purpose with the signals taking the appearance of 3,2, or even one head! All had X plates. The G diag could be on any one of the three aspects.
Proceed on Main Route with No Advance Signal Indication--top mast G diag with all others R horiz.
Proceed on Main Route with Next Signal Clear--G diag over G diag (yellow fishtail)---------G/G/over R horiz
Pocket Signals:
Track Occupied--Y horiz (yellow fishtail)
Track Unoccupied--G diag (yellow fishtail)
These signals were identified with an E plate, dwarfs used a T plate.
That's it.
On semaphore signals, the square blade indicates a home
(interlocking) signal, the pointy-out blade is an automatic,
and the fishtail is a distant blade. On home balls distant
indication was not typically provided, you would have two
square blades. In some cases a distant blade was provided
which would be lower on the mast and have a fishtail. On
automatic signals with distant indication, the top blade
was R/G, the bottom (distant) G/Y, giving G/G, G/Y and R/Y
aspects.
>>Remember, there was no 6th Av side of the Bridge back then so I could imagine that the whole track layout at DeKalb Av was much different back then.<<
Actually, no. Keep in mind both sides of the bridge were still in use, so the layout was pretty much the same. They did add one track before the 'TA' took over, but all it did was let South Side trains Get to the local (Outermost) track at DeKalb much earlier. It really is unnecessary though.
Great stuff, zman.
In Boston on the Green Line (trolley/LRV) there is a signal Yellow over Yellow, which means "station occupied; stop then proceed into station with caution."
A lot of people in the TA said that today's Superintendents replaced Trainmasters. BZZZZ. WRONG!
Superintendents were actually the primo head honchos of the system. The General Superintendent was today's NYCTA President. There were also Asst. General Superintendents and regular Superintendents and Asst. Superintendents. Trainmasters were below regular Assistant Superintendents.
Everyone knows about the old time Motormen Instructors (men with an e) which later became Motor Instructors then Train Service Supervisors. Did you know that there were also Assistant Motormen Instructors as well? Funny thing was rule 96e: On the BMT division, M/I's and Asst.M/I's will make minor repairs to equipment when necessary. Picture that happening today. Haha.
Yardmasters were below Train Dispatchers.
There was an old title called "Inspectors of Service". They were the equivalent of Conductor Instructors. While Inspectors of Service supervised C/R's only, Motormen Instructors supervised both M/M's (T/O's) as well as C/R's. Personally I have no idea as to why Inspectors of Service even existed. Seemed redundant.
Conductor's duties were pretty similar, but with a few differences. Back then, C/R's had to observe the platform until his position entered the tunnel. This rule was on the IND only. Also only on the IND, when running time between two stations was 5 minutes or more, C/R's had to patrol the cars. Also on all divisions, C/R's were to make sure that the rear end of the train had four red marker lights displayed. One part of a rule stated that C/R's in a carrying voice had to say "Watch The Gates Please".
Motormen on the IND could take a line-up from the Local track to the Express track without questioning it. Also in capital letters, one part of a rule says "They must coast as much as possible.....". In yards, safety stops were not required except in the IRT where a 50 foot safety stop was required in car barns only. Also maximum speed in all yards was series speed.
Whenever a train had to have a hand thrown switch manipulated on the main line or for any reason on any TA track, a handswitching C/R was the only one qualified to operate the switch. Also Towermen acted as flagmen at street crossings.
One particular rule (35f) goes against some subtalkers accounts of 11 car trains having been used at one time on the Queens Blvd. lines.
Rule 35f: Trains of more than 10 cars must not be operated on the entire IND division. Nor in the subway service of the IRT division except upon instructions of the IRT trainmaster. In the elevated service of the IRT, no more than 7 cars may be operated except in extreme emergencies. In the subway service of the BMT, no more than 8 cars in passenger service or 9 in lay-up service. In the BMT Elevated Queens section (J/M/Z), 7 cars maximum in passenger service and 8 cars in lay-up service. Also not more than 9 type "C" cars may be operated on yard transfers between Coney Island and East New York Shops.
Also, did you know that emergency buzzers were available to the passengers to alert the T/O and C/R (BMT only). They could buzz the crew members whenever absolutely necessary.
Thanks for the info! I remember on the E and the F fifty years ago, on those long express stretches between 71 Avenue, Roosevelt and Queens Plaza, the conductor would walk first from the middle to the front (sometimes chatting with the motorman)and back, then, on the next stretch, walk to the rear and back. (I don't think he tried it in the rush hour!). Also I didn't realize the "Coast" signs are gone. They were quite common along the QB IND, since those R1-R9 cars didn't have dynamic brakes. I guess it was to save electricity. You also mentioned the 11 car E&F trains. I remember they had 2 conductors. I recall there was a rear conductor riding between the 10th and 11th cars as well as a forward conductor (I think) between the 1st and 2nd cars. The labor arbitrators made them do this. That may be the main reason they cut back to 10 cars in 1958.
At one time the R1-9 had a coasting clock as well; I don't imagine it was very sophisticated but could show how much time a motorman coasted on a run.[I was a coaster myself, those old R1-9 could really roll well on their own once you had your speed up.]You're right, it was to conserve power. As another poster has mentioned today the C [coast] signs were in the rule book so it was in fact a rule to be complied with. Right about the C/R patrolling in Queens, on Central Park West they'd walk the whole train in that stretch.(59-125)
I remember the R-1/9s coasting on long runs as well. On that very first D train I took up CPW, it coasted for quite a way once we got up to full speed before the motorman reapplied power at about 103rd St. The bull and pinion gears sang out a resounding F# above middle C. The same thing happened on my first E ride in Queens in May of 1968. We coasted practically all the way through the express shortcut under Northern Blvd., then the motorman reapplied power at 36th St. Same thing happened - the gears bellowed out an F# above middle C and the station was a blur.
Also, did you know that emergency buzzers were available to the passengers to alert the T/O and C/R (BMT only). They could buzz the crew members whenever absolutely necessary.
AFAIK, these were only on BMT Standards, probably used to allay passenger's fears when MUDC was introduced.
As you can see, you pushed a simple knife switch, closing the buzzer circuit. This had to be released manually, so it was hard to play buzzer games. The M/M and C/R would get a continuous buzz, which would alert them to search for the car with the closed circuit.
Spiffy pic.
Nice picture, Paul!
I remember them, and seem to think they were mounted high on the passenger side of the wall of the motorman's compartment of the Standards.
Any chance you might have a gate from one of the BU's in your collection?
I remember them, and seem to think they were mounted high on the passenger side of the wall of the motorman's compartment of the Standards.
Yes, that's what I recall.
Any chance you might have a gate from one of the BU's in your collection?
No, never had that. I lost a couple of treasures in the years before, during and after I was in the service, when my family moved every couple of years. One item gone was the headboard from BMT Standard #2000 (though I still have its controller handle) and the bench from the original Grant City Station of the SIRT.
Both obtained legitimately (believe it or not). Now gone with the wind.
Paul, are you sure you're not hiding a complete Motorman's cab somewhere on your property?
:-)
BMTman
Paul, are you sure you're not hiding a complete Motorman's cab somewhere on your property?
No, but sometimes, very late at night, I hear the soft release of lap brakes and the whining thump of an air compressor. A BMT Standard air compressor, underneath my cellar floor.
I'm afraid it's 2000, looking for its lost controller handle.
Heh. If you need an exorcism, just let me know. I've got a cutting torch. That'll make it stop. :)
It doesn't pay to go away to college or the service. A lot of my treasures were gone when I got back. I had a complete set of the 1950 Bowman Baseball cards that my parents gave to the kid who bought my bike. He got the bike and the cards for ten bucks.
I'm told that those baseball cards are worth five figures today.
My 111th St gate car sign survived, and I still have that today!
1950 Bowman Baseball cards that my parents gave to the kid who bought my bike.
They gave them away without asking you? I hate when parents do that. My "Uncle Meat"* poster, which my mom hated also disappeared, but she swore she had nothing to do with it.
My wife and I came to an agreement that we do not dispose of anything of our kid's stuff, no matter who trivial we think it is without telling them first. Why? Simple, it's theirs, not ours.
* For the young in the audience, "Uncle Meat" was a satirical ad poster with Frank Zappa on it. Non dirty, but too radical (?) for my elders. I got it on atrip to the Village with my girlfriend, lost it when I was in the Army. Come to think of it, lost the girlfriend at the same time. Rats.
Wonder what they woulda thought of "Phi Zappa Crappa?"
I once had a Nolan Ryan rookie card - the one with his picture side by side with Jerry Koosman - and gave it away along with all of my other baseball cards to my next door neighbor when we moved to Connecticut in 1973. Ouch!! I still kick myself for it. Of course, none of us had any idea back then that Ryan would go on to have a Hall of Fame career. I did keep my 1968 Tom Seaver card.
I kept the Eddie Miksis Card from the 1951 set, but you did not like him, did you?
I understand that there is a book out that gives the values of the old sets. I guess I would feel worse if I knew what that 1950 set would be worth today!
Miksis was well before my time, but I've heard of him. IIRC he scored the winning run when Cookie Lavagetto broke up Floyd Bevens' bid for a no-hitter in the 1947 World Series. I've heard Red Barber's account of that play as pandemonium broke loose at Ebbets Field.
He played regularly for the Cubs in the 1950's, and IIRC he ended his playing career with the Orioles around 1958.
He was strictly a utility player with the Dodgers, but he was still my idol!
Next time I'm at the Transit Museum, I will look for it on 2204. To be honest, I don't remember seeing such a thing on the BMT standards, and I rode on them regularly for two years.
They were removed in the GOH of 2400-2798 c.1960. They remained on the other cars until the end (AFAIK) but those would have been gone by the time you were riding.
10-4. Thanks.
Very interesting post. Will David Pairmann consider adding this material to the Signals section of this website?
"Did you know that certain signals used to have PURPLE aspects? They were on a no longer used IRT signal called "Section Block Signals". SBS's were activated in the event that 3rd rail power was cut off on the next set of tracks. The underground SBS's were operated similarly to the current IRT Gap Filler Signals. The elevated semaphore SBS's gave a purple aspect when clear."
Please excuse my stupid question and educate me: If the forthcoming block has no third rail power, why not simply display a red signal and trip the train if needed (was there no system of commun. with the T/O at all)? Also, what is a clear with purple aspect in this situation? Clear to proceed to a track with no power? Clearly I am not understanding this properly.
>>>>Please excuse my stupid question and educate me: If the forthcoming block has no third rail power, why not simply display a red signal and trip the train if needed (was there no system of commun. with the T/O at all)? Also, what is a clear with purple aspect in this situation? Clear to proceed to a track with no power? Clearly I am not understanding this properly.<<<<
It's not a stupid question.
In the event of an activated Section Block Signal meaning that there was no 3rd rail power in the upcoming section of track, the signal would be Red (horizontal blade on a semaphore), but with NO associated trip arm. Purple meant that everything was OK or clear. "Clear" is just transit speak (example: a yellow or green signal is clear).
In the event of a red SBS, the Motorman had to do his best to avoid passing the signal. The Motorman must call the trainmaster on a wayside phone for further instructions. In the event that part of the train did pass the SBS, the M/M must then operate the entire train into the dead power area and stop the rear of the train no less than 150 feet past the red SBS signal. This was done to prevent power from continuing onto the "off" rail from an "on" rail. Even one live shoe can energize a dead 3rd rail.
Thank you for that excellent explanation.
"In the event that part of the train did pass the SBS, the M/M must then
operate the entire train into the dead power area and stop the rear of the train no less than 150 feet past the red SBS signal.
This was done to prevent power from continuing onto the "off" rail from an "on" rail. Even one live shoe can energize a dead
3rd rail."
The reenergized rail would then endanger repair crews who were informed the block was dead, and then enter to effect repairs, correct?
>>>The reenergized rail would then endanger repair crews who were informed the block was dead, and then enter to effect repairs, correct?<<<
Correct. And the live shoe could also re-energize a dead 3rd rail that was turned off in an emergency.
Most of the casualties in the Malbone wreck were the direct result of the third rail being RE-energized as they were trying to get out of the tunnel. Back in the older car days, there were jumpers so that if one car was on the third dail, they ALL were. If I'm not mistaken, the newer cars only self-power, the control lines do not carry third rail current from car to car, right?
If true, that would be an interesting safety measure. Does anybody know if it actually works like that today?
Howdy once again ... yeah, each car is powered separately - that's why the lights will blink out across third rail gaps if the backup lighting isn't there. The HiV's wouldn't lose lights or power unless the whole train was off the third rail - as long as one shoe was still there, everything ran owing to the jumpers between cars.
That's also one of the reasons FOR the gapping in the third rails, so that you wouldn't have a situation where the front shoe was on one segment and the rear shoe was on another which would transfer power between segments of the third rail (the gap is always longer than a car length just to prevent this) ... I remember that from school car.
But in the old days with the Gibbs cars on the railroad, it was possible to unintentionally power a dead segment with potentially disasterous results. Ain't so easy to happen these days ...
Most of the casualties in the Malbone wreck were the direct result of the third rail being RE-energized
This misconception was addressed in Cudahy's book
on the Malbone Street wreck. He examined the death certificates
and many other original materials. Most of the deaths were due
to the mechanical force of the collision and the cars telescoping.
Whoops ... I got that info from Fischler's book. Sorry for getting it wrong.
I might test some of the physics described in the Malbone book when I get up to Shoreline. I think I'll get 1227 up to top speed on the curve out to Short Beach -- let you know what happens...
BMTman
Heh. Can't you do that with a flatcar perhaps? Bolt a chair to the front? I'd hate to see a Gate car sideways. Perhaps we can dispatch a few cement trucks to build you guys a tunnel wall at least first. :)
Kids, do NOT try this at home.
Or use BMT standard 2775 as a bumper post.:-)
Hey! Hey! Watch that blasphemy, bro. :)
Unca Doug has volunteered for carpentry work, making toothpicks, and that's best done with cement and steel pillars to do the carving. You don't get the same grinding action with a brick wall.
Nah. It's best to do this kind of research in the 'Real McCoy' so to speak.
BMTman
"Oh the humanity" ... you broke it, you bought it, mister ...
My dream day at Shoreline would be to pilot 6688 outbound, then inbound and then ride 1001 out to the curve, get off and have a camera ready for Doug's driving ability!
Am looking forward to seeing everbody up there on 4/28. Let's hope for sunny weather.
Until 4/28,
Hart Bus
Actually, I think the best idea would be to put a set of steel wheels on no. 300 - Doug's old Chrysler 300, that is - and run it down to Short Beach at full throttle. Might endear us even more to the neighbors :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, that's the best idea yet! An old 1969 hi-rail vehicle. Nyuk, nyuk!!!!!!!!
-Stef
Doug, you promised not to do that!
Not to worry, Karl. I'll have a re-railing crew standing by and I'll do all the repair work myself...
Evel Knievel -- eat your heart out!
BMTman
How about using 6688 for this test, or are you worried about Stef?
Out of the Question! Stef would kill me!! ;-)
BMTman
Well ya see ... if we did that tunnel thing, we'd be able to use that to help peel off the sides of 6688 so it'd be ready to take paint. I think we're onto something here now. Heh.
Don't put ideas into Doug's head, he's liable to go off the track and roll onto the street with 6688. She's pretty fast, think of the havoc it would cause. Runaway Car!!!!!
-Stef
I've had weird dreams in which subway trains would be rolling right down the street - with no track!
How about using a BMT standard? The worst that could happen to it would be a few scrapes and bruises, perhaps a broken light bulb.
Hope you have enough cardboard boxes for the memorial toothpicks on sale at the gift shop. :)
Kevin, I can't believe that you are encouraging Doug to make toothpicks out of the only operable BU extant!
I'd never ENCOURAGE splintering that car ... I was trying to make Unca Doug think of the ramifications even though I know he's only busting chops. That's why I proposed the flat car idea with a seat bolted up front ... somehow, not having a cab around ya makes you feel even less invincible ...
Somehow I don't think Doug would really want to do a car 100 or car 80 number there. Do you guys make your operators whiz in the bottle? Might be time to check. Heh.
I have a feeling that Doug is really just as fond of 1227 as I am, but he would never admit it. He has threatened to Malbone it before, probably just to get me started.
Looks like it worked. Heh. It *is* a pretty car and it shows all the loving work that went into shining it up from the pictures I've seen.
It does indeed look good. They did a fantastic job in restoring it. They did repaint it in the red color that it was apparently delivered in.
My personal choice would have been to paint it in the green that it finished its service in, in 1950. I rode the car back then, and remember the green very well!
From whatever experience I had as a railfan or motorman I'd say the BMT el cars had no bus lines running thru the train with 600 volts.They were Low Voltage from the beginning...at least the 1200 and up cars were, and these could be MU'ed with center door, arch roof, or whatever older cars were handy at the time. The only bus jumpers were to feed trailers for lights, heat, etc as they had no 3rd rail shoes, so got their juice from an adjacent motor car.Until their last days the 1300 BU's still had the bus jumper socket on the ends near the roof, as all the trailers were gone perhaps they were deactivated; in reality I shouldn't say "bus" as the train wasn't on a 600V bus, it was only a feeder.
BTW the term "bus" for those who are puzzled is an electrical term for whatever form of device carries the load for everything else, my wording may be bad but basically the main feed or carrier.
Just FYI the only NYC transit cars I know of that had those 600 Volt bus lines were the IRT High-V's whether in subway or elevated types; the composites had them originally but were converted to Low-V in l9l6 so no longer needed them. The old LIRR MU's had Low-V controls and they had bus lines , been told because of road crossings.
Let's create an imaginary train of gate cars...
623-234-902
623 & 902 were power cars. 234 was the non-motorized trailer. 234 had a jumper from the ceiling of the end platform to 623, and 623 would therefore be supplying the power for lights in 234. There would be no jumper between 234 & 902. At a third rail gap the lights would go out in 623 & 234 at the same time. They would be back on before the lights went out in 902. I do not recall any battery or emergency lights in the gate cars.
I never asked the question but always assumed that the jumper was a full 550 volts.
I'll answer all three responses to my post in one:
Karl B: I'd be positive that the feeder for the BU trailers was indeed 550 Volt [cheap BMT with weak power..oops sorry Karl]Battery power wouldn't have been enough for heat and lights and there was no other power then than 3rd rail voltage.
Zman and Selkirk: Yes the IRT was the only system of the three with Section Break Signals, and they were as you've read elsewhere removed after the High"V's demise. Indeed one shoe in contact with a live third rail with any other shoe in contact with the dead section would energize it. You can imagine an incident with a "man under", or flood and having the dead 3rd rail re-energized. Worst of all imagine a case of ground and personnel trying to break off a grounded shoe beam or something and the juice comes on. It would be fatal. Hence the SB signals.
Just thought I'd drop the Manhattan el setup in comparison to the Brooklyn els: The High-V el cars had the same setup as subway ones; bus line thru and no shoes on trailers; on the Low-V el cars which were originally High-V (l9l0-11 cars only) before conversion and not the entire group was done each car including trailers had contact shoes. The el trailers had 4 shoes, subway ones only 2.
When you'd ride a High-V the lights never went out over gaps and the control group switches didn't drop out an notch up again. You'd have power in every motor car over switches, etc.
I'll confirm that the "bus jumpers" on the BU cars, for lights
and heat, were line voltage (550). There is a small knife switch
and a 25-30 A fuse in the switchboard panel of the #1 cab of a
motor car that feeds the socket up on the roof.
I am a little unclear about one aspect of Hi-V operation. As far
as I can tell, the bus jumpers were connected to the third rail
shoes via a bus fuse and a bus rheostat (resistor). This is shown
on a main wiring diagram for 1904 Gibbs cars and is also verified
by field inspection of surviving equipment. I believe the bus
rheostat isolates the bus line from the main motor circuits. In
the event a car is off the contact rail, this resistance should
prevent the motors from drawing down the 300 or so amps that they
consume, on average, while still delivering more or less 600 volts
to the lower current loads such as heat, lights, fans (1920s
retrofit) and control circuits.
The resistance in series would make sense - it'd be short order before a connector arc'ed and sparked and burned the roof off. Still, all it takes is about 3 milliamps to kill ya at 600 DC if the current flows through the chest cavity. Those of us who worked on "classic" radios and TV's where the tube's plate voltage was up past 200 volts DC can tell ya, it's a nasty ride well below that level. Sure will wake you up on a repair bench. And those German radios of the 50's and 60's wouldn't light up for anything less than 480.
I ain't afraid of 600 volts, but I sure wouldn't want to stick my tongue out at it neither. That's why the guys I worked with flipped when that picture of me got taken apparently with my head smack dab on that third rail. :)
By the way, forgot to finish my thought in the previous first sentence - the "burning the roof off" was more an issue of CURRENT, in that if full current were really available there for a whole train's worth on those jumpers, you'd have ENORMOUS current running through and as all us 'lectical engineering types know, it's I2R (Current squared times resistance) that generates tremendous heat with those connector and jumper losses ...
Like the old saw, "it ain't the heat, it's the humididdity" (as Lloyd Lidsay Young used to say on channel 9), "it ain't the voltage, it's the amps" ... I would imagine the resistance was chosen to allow the motors to not stall, but not enough to "feed them" ...
Now I feel a little vindicated about all of the safety precautions I had going whenever a piece of tube based electronics was open on my workbench. I wasn't exactly teased about it, but one person I know thought it was a bit unnecessary although conceded that it's better to err on part of caution when it comes to electrical safety. (As an aside, one of the most embarrasing and expensive mistakes there is next to dropping a tube on the floor is to connect the plate voltage to a filament and wreck a tube that way. I've only lost the occasional tube to the floor so far.)
On the other hand, our wonderful local trolley museum seems to think that 600 volts DC is as harmless as a declawed cat. They don't even put flags on equipment in their shop to indicate that something might be live when they have the covers etc. off of streetcars exposing electrical apparatus.
I first saw this type of practice their last summer when an early 1920s Peter Witt streetcar was over the work pit. The front doors were open, and just inside them was the driver's area with the drum controller where all the high voltage switching equipment for the resistors in the motor circuit takes place had its cover off. There was no notice posted anywhere or a flag or anything of any sort to indicate whether or not the equipment could possibly be carrying a full charge of 600 volts or a lower voltage test charge.
Personally, I always act as if something is live unless I know otherwise. Even though the museum's shop area is off limits to everybody who isn't a member of the museum, an accident could happen to anybody who is a member if they were to touch a live piece of equipment that's not labeled as such and be grounded at the same time, or worse a child could just wander in and roast themselves. That worries me quite a bit because not only would an accident be bad enough on its own, the reprecussions from one could very well finish off the museum altogether. But who am I to question their electrical safety standards?
-Robert King
If they had the K controller of a Witt open for routine servicing,
undoubtedly the circuit breaker and control cut out switch were
open, so there was no 600 in the box.
I'd certainly hope so. This was a typical Westinghouse K controller in a TTC Peter Witt. Generally when streetcars of any sort are maintained, their poles are taken down and hooked, physically disconnecting the entire thing from the 600 volt supply, unless a snake is connected elsewhere. I'm not a Witt expert, but I can see putting smaller charges on it in order to conduct tests to determine if circuits are open or to trace them etc. The last thing I'd want to hear about the museum is that someone accidentally got fried there.
Incidentally, something I've been trying to find out for quite a while without success is how one would go about removing the original asbestos insulation inside the K controller and what kind of replacement insulation, if any, took its place.
I can pretty much figure out how to get rid of the asbestos, having observed the proceedings at my friend's house when all of the asbestos pipe insulation covering the hot water heating system's pipes was removed because it was decaying and became a health hazard, but I can't quite think of what would perform as an adequate substitute, if replacement insulation is indeed necessary. Do you by chance know of any place I could find out about this (Please don't refer me back to the HCRR!)?
-Robert King
If you are removing asb****s, get someone qualified to do it.
You will create an airborne problem if you disturb it and you
should find out what your local ordinances are for disposal of
the material. If you mean the insulation on the interior of the
wooden or metal cover to the K controller, it is best to leave it
alone unless it is heavily damaged. Just paint it or varnish it
with a product that is not flammable after drying.
You can obtain woven fiberglass sheeting from McMaster and other
suppliers that can be used as an adequate substitute. If you mean
the arc chutes and inter-segment separator boards, I am not sure
where you can get a replacement. Modern contactors use some sort
of fiberglass epoxy resin product which is molded by the
manufacturers. I do not know where you can get custom pieces.
Most covers where there are voltages like that have interlocks that have to be manually defeated with "clip leads" around them. Normally testing of control circuits is done with an ohmmeter with power down and any capacitors bled off. Ohmmeters tend to die if they're hooked up to something powered for testing.
And yes, the old "keep one hand firmly in your pocket" rule is a good one as is the slogan of the power companies, "not grounded? not DEAD." Tends you make you think a bit when around live circuits as any wrong move will be your last in most cases.
Here in the states, there are extensive OSHA workrules involving flagging, locking off switches, fencing and such. Here they're way too worried about "1-800-INJURED" to be that lax with exposed electrons. I can only imagine what the electric shops at the TA are like these days. Back around 1970, conductors and motormen would hang out on the shop floor. Betcha that's all prohibited now too.
Are you a volunteer or member at this museum? If so, you have every right as a voter at the monthly board meetings to bring a motion to the floor mandating the enforcement of the safety rules. We do this frequently at TMNY, whether we are working on 600 Volts, gas or diesel, or even in the gift shop. And even if you aren't a member your opinion still can be heard, just write them a letter. Sometimes we do a task so routine we don't realize ther severity until one brings it to our attention.
Well Jeff I'll be very honest you have actual working experience on those cars and all my observation were either as a railfan or what a shop friend taught me and guess a lot of things were never asked so I never got answers. If this is your experience and in addition to what you've seen documented I'll take your word for it.
I can remember on the old Bway-7th exp. taking the crossover at 96 st and I can't remember them losing power, of course as you confirm the lights never went out. Now there's a good chance the way their control systems were set up I wouldn't have felt them drop out. I go on the way the ride felt, and the last time I rode one I was shy of turning 16. That was 42 years ago.
But of course the likelihood of having too many cars gapped at one time could likely cause shoe fuses to blow, bus fuses to blow,etc., with all the amperage drawn by working motors, again that crossover was from a dead start and IIRC upgrade beyond northbound so you'd have a pretty heavy amperage draw. Thanks for the info.
Your theory holds water considering that only the IRT had the Section Break Signals.
Yeah, it was the HiV's I was thinking of because of the need for special signalling to alert the MM's not to hit them and end up powering a down segment ahead. That "purple glow of gotcha!" :)
Not exactly. A section break is always longer than the distance
between two third rail shoes. The Section Break signals were
only on the IRT and were specifically for Hi-V cars which had
trainline 600V. If such a train were to stop in a power-off section
while the rear of the train still had power, the dead section would
become live. These signals were all ripped out when the Hi-Vs
were retired in the 1950s.
These signals were identified with an E plate, dwarfs used a T plate.
I forgot to mention, this isn't the case. I have the same rulebook.
The E and T are just examples of route codes on signal number plates.
I wouldn't bother with this because it could be considered out of place but I know that this site is visited by many TA professionals and I beleve that one may be able to help. I am new to the TA and it's politics and would like a mentor to help me learn the ropes. I would prefer that the person work in the TA headquarters area. Serious replies or suggestions apprecaited. Thanks.
I stay as far away from JOY St. as I can because of the BS. E-mail me with your dept. and I'll suggest someone appropriate.
Steve
A few weeks ago, I got off a Northbound G train at Clinton Washington. I heard a train headed southbound, but it wasn't braking from what I could hear. When it cleared the G train, I saw it was a work train. There were 2 'rider' cars (former revenue cars in work service), then 3 gondola or flat cars followed by EP007. This is the first time I have ever seen a garbage train or an R127/134. But, it brings up a number of questions.
The train was going at least 20 mph. I don't think that one R-127 could push a train that fast, could it? Thus I am led to believe that those cars do accept 3rd rail power and can still move on their own. But then, Why are they always pulled by diesels or electric locomotives?
Also, can a motorman control the train from the cab of a rider car? I never though so, but that train was moving pretty fast.
If anyone can answer these questions, it would be helpful.
Those two rider cars that you saw were actually two revenue collector cars (money train). One of the regular refuse motors must have been BO (bad order).
By the way, the revenue collector (money train) will be permanently discontinued as of July 1st. Get those cameras ready in the event one pops up!
I don't know about the B Division, but the IRT still has an active collector(s) going up and down the line and picking up money. What will happen to the cars? Will the Revenue Collectors be put on the scrap line, or could they see action elsewhere?
-Stef
How about preserving at least one of those R-21/22's before they are all gone. (Will probably be replaced by 33 singles eventually).
Why are they retiring the revenue collectors? The money still needs to be collected; probably more so now since MVMs have allowed 24 hr. transactions in some places that had a part time token booth or no booth at all.
Dan
At this time, they use armored car for the stations not served by money trains.
Okay, I'll bite. Why? Doesn't it complicate matters to have to use surface transport for collecting the money. Seems to me it would be much easier and safer to use trains to collect money so it doesn't leave the system till it gets to the steel gates below Jay St. Is not there more potential for robberies, embezzlement, and breakdowns in using an armored car? NYC Transit using its own system for revenue collection really makes sense. Plus, the MTA not taking advantage of the fact that it's a railroad and using rubber-tired transport for one of its procedures just rubs me wrong!
Ah, but I'm sure it's a happy outcome for the subcontractors, and all that extra diesel in the air these days just gives you that smell of "money" that makes the oil companies and our current administration feel better. Bigtime. :)
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Must the MTA get rid of everything that's interesting about the subway? First they killed express service as we knew it by putting in those stupid timers, then they got rid of late night express service. Then they withdrew the Bombardier R142s (have they put them back in yet?) because they tried to run fast. Now they're taking away the money train! Why are doing that? Why can't (or won't) they take a pair of soon-to-be-retired Redbirds, paint 'em yellow and make them the new money train? Why must the MTA get rid of everything that's interesting about the subway? Just replace the two R21s that make up the present money train with a pair of Redbirds! It won't kill them to do so!
And here we thought "BO" on the subway meant something else ... sorry, just didn't have the will power. :)
The money trains can accept third rail. But I think other former subway cars in work service were stripped of their traction motors and can only be pulled by electric or diesel locomotives. But they might be able to be operated from the cab of the subway car in the work train, similar to operating a push-pull train from the last car with the locomotive pushing the train.
The R127/134 cars are indeed third rail powered. The flatcars have drop down sides which form ramps. At a station stop, some of the employees drop the platform side ramp and push off the empty dumpters while others push on the full dumpsters removed from the platform or the trash room on the platform. The sides are returned to the upright position, locked, and the train moves on.
Something else unique to the garbage flats vs. other work flats is that they have MU passthrough. Not sure of this, but I believe they also have the H2c coupler.
-Hank
If a diesel was hauling it, it wasn't the garbage train.
An R127/134 looks like an R62..all nice and shiny. What you
are describing, 1 locomotives, some rider cars and some flats,
sounds more like a supply train for a track construction project.
The riders are yellow and they are former R-21s or R-17s or the
like, stripped of motors and controls, and outfitted with bus line
jumpers for the communications train line.
I believe what he was describing was the two car Revenue Collector being pressed into refuse service in place of the R-127/134 that was OOS. I can recall a time in the early 90s, when two sets of revenue collectors were being used to operate the refuse train, two on each side. This was the time when the TA was phasing out the old IRT Motors, utilized R-36s for a time, and then went to R-127s when they first appeared at 239th St Yard in late 1991.
And I do recall the first time I saw the 127s heading soutbound on the 2/5, a pair being pulled by a locomotive and a flat car. How bizarre!
-Stef
Are all the keys (the big triangular 1, and the Skeloton Key) the same for all trains? or just like the R-44...(thats the 1 that i have it for) im just curious...Thanks
Danny
use a damn screw driver
I don't know if they are; but if it's true and they are all the same, would you mind sending me a copy? (=
Dan
The keys that conductors use to open the doors in the A and B Divisions are probably the same, but I know that the long key (what you call the skeleton key) is different in both divisions. In the A Division, the end of the key is straight. In the B Division, the end of the key is crooked and curves slightly to the left.
Yeah but I heard some of the 75' cars use a "vapor" key. What is that?
That's the same triangular shaped key used by the conductors for the door controls (and T/O,s get them too). What is meant by the 44 and 46 "using the vapor key" is that on those cars it also activates the end door unlock (all the doors, trainline) and coupler control on the control console. (the other 75 ft cars go back to the old cutting key, and the end doors are opened with a knob on the auxiliary panel)
I do know that when they were dividing the class up between A and B divisions, the A div. people got another key called the "Pelham Key". Still haven't been able to get a clear answer as to what that is.
The R-142 also has a Contol Panel key instead of the reverser.
I've heard the term "skate key" used. Is that used in conjunction with the door controls?
They were also called "church keys" by some of us.
I don't think this is the proper forum to discuss this, e.g. if I was asked how to start a bus on in BusTalk I wouldn't answer it.
Mr t__:^)
If you are legitimately in possession of these keys, you should already know the answer. If you are not, give the keys back to a Transit employee, since their possession could lead to your arrest.
My dad has a set of NJT keys that were given to him by a retiring conductor about 10 years ago. These keys work on pretty much anything that has run on the Main Line since then (all Comet classes as well as Shoreliner Is). My question is, since these keys work on NJ's Shoreliner Is, would they work on all of Metro North's Shoreliners? What about other companies which also use the Bombardier / Pullman standard design (SEPTA, MBTA, etc)? What about Amtrak Amfleets and Horizons (since Amtrak borrows NJT and MARC stuff, they may want to have everyone use the same keys)? How about Arrow IIIs, also NJT and for simplicity's sake probably use the same?
The door key should work on the PATH equipment too, though the actual door control enable key has been changed to an Ace-style cylinder lock in the last month or two (bad choice). But your key should still work in all the other keyways in the PATH cars.
the reason im asking..is i operate a R-44...i never been in the cab of a train in the city or run by the MTA..so i do not know the answer..i have keys and i did not "Steal" them in anyway. I own them because i am a soon to be conductor..so im allowed to have them..but i would like to know if they work on other MTA trains..not R44's....thats all..Thanks
Danny
your goin to be a conductor sonn where?............sirt?
So I'm jumping the gun by a few hours, who cares? Tomorrow April 19 will be the 54th anniversary of my first ride on the Sea Beach. Up to that time it was the West End to both sets of grandparents and Coney Island, and, of course, the Brighton Express to Ebbets Field. But not after April 19, 1947. My dad was near Pacific Street on some business concerning tools and suggested we go to his parents for the afternoon. I saw a #4 train coming into the station and even then I loved #4. I asked what train that was, was told by my father it was the Sea Beach. We decided to ride it, and that was it. Never again did I ride any other train to granny's house or to Coney Island, and if you guys out there got sick of hearing about Cincinnati and the PLO vs Israel, well batton down the hatches, we're in for a rough ride for the next day or two as Sea Beach stories come pouring out. Some may even want to killfile me but I'd rather get greeting and salutations on the anniversary so let's hear it from the buddies out there.
I've got my killfile all warmed up and ready to go; reminisce away!
Congrats on your anniversary.
Dan
I still think that the Sea Beach line could be the best line in the entire subway if they ever restore the express tracks. I would like to see a Sea Beach express once again.
BMTJeff
Congrats! But where is your buddy #1 Brighton Exp Bob?
Glad you asked Q. We talked tonight on the phone and I told him I was going to be in Virginia this summer so we could tour some of the Civil War battlefields and ride the Washington Metro. He has not been on line for the past week but I assure you he will get on tomorrow----if only to pan me and my train. BTW, Bob is getting personalized license plates with part of your Q handle. I think it goes something like Q EXP something. He and 8AVEXP Steve have suggested I get 4SEABCH plates, and I think I will. Anyway, the pal Bob is fine and I'm sure he'll be heard from soon.
By all means, go for the vanity plates. Then see how long it takes for someone to figure out what they mean. It took almost nine years before a Columbia alum guessed right on my plates. Some people figured out the 8th Ave. Express part, but they didn't connect it with New York. One of my coworkers knows the words to Take the A Train.
BTW, happy anniversary. April 30 will mark 34 years since my first ride on the IND. July 20 will be the 34th anniversary of my first ride on the A.
By all means, go for the vanity plates. Then see how long it takes for someone to figure out what they mean. It took almost nine years before a Columbia alum guessed right on my plates. Some people figured out the 8th Ave. Express part, but they didn't connect it with New York. One of my coworkers knows the words to Take the A Train.
BTW, happy anniversary. April 30 will mark 34 years since my first ride on the IND. July 20 will be the 34th anniversary of my first ride on the A.
By all means, go for the vanity plates. Then see how long it takes for someone to figure out what they mean. It took almost nine years before a Columbia alum guessed right on my plates. Some people figured out the 8th Ave. Express part, but they didn't connect it with New York. One of my coworkers knows the words to Take the A Train.
BTW, happy anniversary. April 30 will mark 34 years since my first ride on the IND. July 20 will be the 34th anniversary of my first ride on the A.
By all means, go for the vanity plates. Then see how long it takes for someone to figure out what they mean. It took almost nine years before a Columbia alum guessed right on my plates. Some people figured out the 8th Ave. Express part, but they didn't connect it with New York. One of my coworkers knows the words to Take the A Train.
BTW, happy anniversary. April 30 will mark 34 years since my first ride on the IND. July 20 will be the 34th anniversary of my first ride on the A.
Fred, thanks for the info. I hope both of you get your license plates. They're a great idea. And it's nice to know that I've had such a strong influence of originality for Bob's license plate. BTW, I can't resist, but you certainly have been brave in admitting that you rode the Brighton Express and the West End before you rode the Sea Beach. I empathize with your love of the Triplexes, too, although I never rode them, because of my love for the Brightliners.
I had no choice because my dad loved the West End and the Brighton was the only train I could take to Ebbets Field. I think we once transferred to the Culver from some line, but I am not sure. Anyway, I did not ride the Sea Beach until April 19th, 1947. From then on a scene ensued between me and my parents whenever we were at Times Square and 42nd Street waiting for one of the three trains to arrive. Often the Brighton and West End arrived first but we waited for the Sea Beach. My parents did not want to have a brat on their hands to spoil a trip to the Grandparents for Sunday dinner.
Did you ever tell your folks you didn't like those cars (BMT standards) with no signs up front?
I am back on line, Spoke to Fred on the phone the past 2 days. As to me riding the 1st time on the Brighton. I actually do not know. I was born and raised on Kings Hwy by Bedford Ave(The same hospital as Joe Torre) I must have traveled the Brighton Line as a infant, since we did not have a car, and all my father s family lived in the Bronx or the Inwood Section or Manhatten and used to go to My Grandparents place off of Dyckman 2xs a month, so we took the Brighton to Times Square and Transfered to the Bdway-7th Ave Exp(Now the 1). My earliest memory was not of the Brighton, but the West End, since My Mom taught by Bay 50th St Station and I went to Kindergarden there and watched the trains there. I could not give a exact date but around 1947. I also remember a treat from taking the IRT to Dykman St, was once we took the Franklin Shuttle to Franklin Ave and transfered to the A Train. My dad waited to 3 or 4 trains on the A went by so we could take a new train which would have been the R10. I did not like it, since I was too small to look out of the rail fan window.
Wow, those really are some memories. You sure is was a Franklin Shuttle, though, and not a Brighton-Franklin thru service? And looking out the railfan window as a little kid--You sure got hooked early!
I know it was a Franklin, but I really don t remember if it was a thru express to Coney island or not. I remember taking that also, including the one all the way thru to Chambers St via the Bridge, The Franklin Thru ran only on Sundays in the summer, and I don t remember what time of year it was. I just remember waiting for the new R 10 on the A Train. I assume it was the Franklin Line to Franklin Ave, it was the only way to get to the A Train in those days with out a extra fare
By the way, is it true what Fred says, that you've applied for a "Q EXP" license plate?
Speaking of the R-10s, November 20 could be "R-10 Day". IIRC it was on that date in 1948 that those immortal Thunderbirds made their debut on the A.
Fred: Ahhh, Fred. You're a true railfan. I can remember clearly my early rides in the subway. Happy to have you aboard!:)
-cordially,
turnstiles
Turnstiles: I'm with you on that. I am such a railfan I could qualify as a subway rat. I love riding the New York Subway, I have dreams of the New York Subway and it's too bad I'm 3000 miles away and can go to New York only on special occasions to enjoy the rides. Today, of course, is a very special day for me because it is to me Sea Beach day, the date of my first ride on my favorite train. Glad to hear you are sharing my joy with me. I have a few stories to tell and will in subsequent posts.
Today, of course, is a very special day for me because it is to me Sea Beach day, the date of my
first ride on my favorite train. Glad to hear you are sharing my joy with me. I have a few stories to tell and will in subsequent
posts.
Fred: Great! I'll be looking forward to them.
-cordially,
turnstiles
It is only 2460 air miles from LAX to JFK and 2750 by car
Happy Anniversary Fred!
Are you holding that framed Sea Beach picture close to you on the 19th ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: Do you even have to ask that? The answer is a foregone conclusion. I NEVER pass anywhere in the house without looking at that picture. You couldn't have given me a present more enjoyed by me unless you gave me a Mets cap, which Thurston already has. When I see that picture, it is not a fan trip taken in 1975, but a trip to my grandparents house or a jaunt to Coney Island in circa 1949 or 1950, and that guy in the railfan window is me. You can bet I will be looking at that picture incessantly when I get home this afternoon. You never gave anyone a more appreciated present. Have a great day.
Hey, Fred, maybe you have that photo blown up into a full-fledged poster, then hang it on your bedroom closet door.:-)
You've just planted a seed in my mind. Something to think about. Thanks. Read my other post about Sea Beach day. You are in it.
Fred,
I still have the original slide. That could be enlarged to a 20" x 30" poster print. But that could be grounds for divorce !!
Bill "Newkirk"
If it doesn't meet your approval, the picture stays as is and forget the poster. How's that? It is one hell of a photo.
Party pooper!:-)
Fred has lots of poop in his place with 4 dogs, and a tree in his front yard with hundreds of you would never believe this Green Parrots, don t ask, nobody knows where they came from.
Fred has lots of poop in his place with 4 dogs, and a tree in his front yard with hundreds of you would never believe this Green Parrots, don t ask, nobody knows where they came from. The poop is not inside, but outside
I doubt it, Fred s wife Linda is great. Fred has one room wall to wall memoribilia Baseball, The best place for Fred s Sea Beach will be the dog kennel(He has 4 dogs or the bathroom
No doubt Brooklyn Dodger memorabilia.:-)
No more like Mets. Fred coaches Kids baseball I forgot Babe Ruth or Pony League, and he had some championship teams with his Mets/
Well, Fred is a Met fan after all, so that's understandable.
Well Steve, my loyalty is being severely tested. What the hell is wrong with the Mets? I was hoping to get to New York this summer and ride the exciting and ethnically rich #7 out to Shea and mingle with both my fellow riders and fans at the Stadium as the Mets romped to another victory. But, lordly lord, they can;t seem to get out of the blocks, and I don't think I want to chance it. I can imagine my chagrin if I take a short trip to the city, go out to Shea and watch them lose to the Phils, Expos, or, perish the thought, the Braves. It would really put me in a pretty crappy mood and ruin my vacation to boot.
It's still too early to tell if the Mets have Flushed their season down the toilet. Hopefully, they'll break out of their collective slump soon. They play the Braves 19 times this season. Oi vay!!
Well just look at the box scores the past two evenings. Things aren't getting any better. Instead of wearing my Mets cap everywhere I go I should put a bag over my head. They all know who I am around here and I am getting a lot of smirks.
Yeah, the way the Cardinals hammered them this weekend, it looks as if the Mets are indeed Flushing their season down the toilet.
Well, today is the 34th anniversary of my first IND ride, from 34th St. to Rockefeller Center on most likely a D train. After lunch, we boarded a D train for Coney Island via the Culver line. Wonder if Big Ed was working the D that day...
We returned to Manhattan via BMT, first on an N (I think) of R-32s to the 4th Ave. line, then changed to an R-27/30 RR for the rest of the trip. Why I will never know. It wouldn't have made any difference along 4th Ave., since by then the N ran local in Brooklyn on Sundays, but at least we could have gone via bridge and express along Broadway. But nooooooooooooo. We had to go via tunnel and make every single stop along the way. Of course, that D train made all stops to Stillwell Ave. OTOH the subway was still brand new to me then, and I still hadn't grasped the express/local concept.
The guy in the window is too good looking to be you
You don't have to celebrate Sea Beach Day of April 19th. You can do that anytime the TA reroutes trains up the Sea Beach middle. The trip seams faster going north rather than going south on the middle track. Forget the R-68s, R-32 are a definite plus !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I never knew they ran them south. That would be for me. A fast run to Coney Island on an express. Since I'm 3000 miles away, I would have to work something out to come for the occasion. I would love to have a schedule of those events if they were available, otherwise I would just have to enjoy the trip vicariously. Too bad they can't fix the other express tracks so trains could run both directions at the same time. In another post I am going to tell you and everyone else of the most fantastic dream I had last night. It's mind boggling and really off the wall. My wife rolled her eyes when I told her this morning. It's really a doozy.
Poor Linda.
She's gone through almost 31 years of my antics. I hope you don;t drive your lady as wild as I do. I know my wife thinks I'm weird.
She's gone through almost 31 years of my antics. I hope you don;t drive your lady as wild as I do mine. I know my wife thinks I'm weird.
In referance to R36:
Does the emergency brake cut power off to traction motors?
What is the process for restarting a train after it is braked as such?
Is there a mechanism that prevents uncoupling of cars while in motion?
How is a car uncoupled?
How long do emergency lights stay on when 3rd rail power is cut?
Thanks
-Dan
Directly, no. Indirectly it does. In emergency, brake pipe goes to zero. When brake-pipe air goes below 82 PSI a devise known as the 'Pressure Switch' drops out. On GE controllers this opens 2 relays known as ER-1 & ER-2. These relays when open, cut CB+ to the group switch box so the traction motors cannot take power.
In referance to R36:
Does the emergency brake cut power off to traction motors?
What is the process for restarting a train after it is braked as such?
Is there a mechanism that prevents uncoupling of cars while in motion?
How is a car uncoupled?
How long do emergency lights stay on when 3rd rail power is cut?
I assume you mean the Corona fleet?
Yes, an emergency brake application disables both dynamic braking
and any motoring by removing the battery feed to the group switch.
After the train has stopped and the appropriate checking for cause
as required by the rulebook, just charge up again and go. Once
the brake pipe pressure builds up beyond about 80 psi, the emergency
contactor closes and the cars can take power again.
The only thing that prevents an accidental uncoupling is the
tried-and-true H2 head. Unless there is a serious mechanical
defect in the head, undesired uncouplings are very rare. When
you do want to break a train, you insert a cutting key into the
cutting valve in the cab of the part of the train that you want
to move away. This applies air to the cutting portion of the H2
head, which releases the lock, seals off the air lines and retrieves
the electric portions. Then just back off your cut a few inches.
Helps to disconnect the passenger safety chains first :)
The Corona fleet is the last in the system with old-school emergency
lighting relays. When the 3rd rail power goes off, the relay
connects the battery to the emergency lights, which are 32 volt
incandescent bulbs. Each car carries a battery of, I think, 80 Ah
capacity. The emergency lights draw about 10 amps total, so
they could in theory stay on for 8 hours.
More than a few transit workers have told me about the pending plan to sink redbirds off the Jersey coast to build an artificial reef for marine life. What's the deal with that? How are cars being shipped to NJ? How much are they being sold for? Have any been sunk yet? What's the general reaction?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
I guess they'll see he same fate the PATH Class K car his a few years ago, the stripped bodies will be floated on batges out to the dumping site.
I hear the fish are excited !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It’ll make a change from boats to go visit.
BTW: Although the cars will provide a flourishing artificial reef environment (mussels, anenomes, fish, lobsters), the waters off NJ are far too cold for coral.
One of my friends is the director of the New Jersey Council of Diving Clubs. She informed me by email the other night that New York has now turned thumbs down on using the Rustbirds for artificial reefs, citing New Jersey's passing on them as well. Delaware, however, is said to be quite interested in them - not sure whether they would take all 1300, but at least some of them.
She also included a link to her web page, which includes a photo of a Philadelphia subway car after ten years in the water. (You'll have to scroll down a bit to see it.) I'm glad she told me what to look for, because I wouldn't have recognized it otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great picture. They should have thrown those Grumman buses down there, also. :)
She also included a link to her web page, which includes a photo of a Philadelphia subway car after ten years in the water. (You'll have to scroll down a bit to see it.) I'm glad she told me what to look for, because I wouldn't have recognized it otherwise.
Why, it looks just like one of the Rustbirds on the 2 line!
Um, why is asbestos a hazard in the sea? Are we worried about giving the fish silicosis?!
Seriously, the picture shows what happens to just about any surface underwater. Mussels attach to it very quickly, paint flakes off, and then anenomes and sea stars attach themselves.
To Anon_e_mouse: you know Peggy?
John.
Yes, I do... I live less than a mile from her daughter Nancy, who happens to be the secretary of our N scale club, Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I do... I live less than a mile from her daughter Nancy, who happens to be the secretary of our N scale club, Jersey Central Ntrak. In fact, I lived in Dan and Nancy's basement for a couple of months in between the time I had to be out of my rented quarters and when we closed on our house here in late '97. (I came to New Jersey on a "temporary" assignment over five years ago... North Carolina is still what my wife and I consider our real home.)
This time I remembered to preview the post...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"She also included a link to her web page, which includes a photo of a Philadelphia subway car after ten years in the water. (You'll have to scroll down a bit to see it.) I'm glad she told me what to look for, because I wouldn't have recognized it otherwise."
I searched the web page and couldn't find the damn thing.
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean this one:
John
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ??
It doesn't look like a Philadelphia subway car submerged for 10 years. Looks more like a giant cocoanut with a railfan window !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I did find it, but agreed, it doesn't look like a Brill/Pressed Steel at all, which is what was dumped.
If the view is the front, there should be 3 openings, not one. Plus, based on the proprotions of the diver, it's way too narrow.
The Titanic still looks like a ship, even after 80+ plus years on the bottom of the North Atlantic.
For a moment, I thought that might be Heypaul. Or Bob Uecker.
I just went out to visit the dump site (Sandyhook, NJ.) of the old cars since I am doing a story on NYCT for a class. The officials there said the cars would be completely stripped, floated out on barges and place in th water. There is still disagreement by both sides and NYCT is perfectly willing to go elsewhere if an accord can't be met.
Nappy
I was talking today to a TSS on the "M" line, he told me that the R143's were going to be delivered to NYCTA next mouth. He did not tell me when the extect date was. So keep a look out for them.
Robert
Which might explain the new signage on the Culver line I notced Tuesday.
Looks like the L might finally get some brand new cars for the first time in 45 years!
What sign do you meen. I ment to say on I worked on the"L" not the on the "M". I did not see any sign on the platforms for an 8 car train, with the C/R in the middle. Please explain.
Robert
The express tracks from Kings Higway to Ditmas Ave. have signs posted saying "Caution: Test Track" along it's length.
I was speaking to a co-worker yesterday and he told me that they're soon going to have a massive G.O. on the L line where service will only operate between 8th Avenue-14th Street, Manhattan and Broadway Junction in Booklyn.
Why?
To start the demolition of the Snediker Avenue portion of the elevated L line to Atlantic Avenue and the construction of the straightaway track along the Van Sinderen Avenue portion of the elevated L line; so there will be only one structure at the Atlantic Avenue station, not two. This is all being done in an effort to make the whole L line CBTC compatible for the soon to come R143s.
So take your last rides on the L as you know it now, because soon that crazy curve northbound on the L after Sutter Avenue that railfans of all ages enjoy will soon be no more.
Look on the bright side. The (L) is getting new trains! How often do the eastern division lines get the newest rolling stock in the whole system?
:-) Andrew
Not since the R-16s.
Yeah, and they turn out to be the biggest lemons ever orderd. I hope history doesn't repeat itself.
Some would say history already did with the R-46s (advanced technology before its time and the world famous Rockwell International trucks).
--Mark
Perhaps, but the R-46s problems have been pretty much ironed out. They've turned out to be reliable cars. The R-16s were OK thru the late 60s, then deferred maintenance really caught up with them.
True, but after some work the R46 is now a completely reliable car. That can't be said of the R16 at any point in it's life.
As I recall, the R-46's were not lemons, except for the trucks. The R-44's, on the other hand..........
...are still lemons!
Which leads up to the joke:
Q: What's the difference between an R16 and an R44?
A. 15 feet.
Rim shot!
Their weaknesses were known right away: the door motors couldn't handle snow, and the GE cars couldn't handle the damp, salt air on the Rockaways. To protect their investment, they should have immediately put them on an all-underground IND express like the F, and they would have been fine. Someone said here last week that they ran down C.P.W. on the A 5MPH faster than the R10.
They did spend most of the early and mid 1970s plowing the exclusively undergrounf EE and the almost-exclusively underground GG lines, but they were just.....so......slow, and it was especially noticeable on the Broadway line, when the R-27/30 RR would come into a station or run the 60th St tunnel at normal speed, while the EE would just lumber on down the line, with the cars rocking from one side to the other like some line of four-year-olds marching along to "Barney's Greatest Hits."
The R-16s may have had some speed in the 1950s and early 1960s, but by around 1970, it seemed like they were never in any particular hurry to get where they were going.
Maybe their express/local switches were stuck in local mode. In other words, perhaps their final field shunt step didn't function.
I don't know what their problem was...rode them when new and don't remember any thing special speedwise but then neither the present day J or L were any racetrack. I can volunteer that perhaps weight had something to do with it. In order of weight the R16 was the heaviest, at some 85,000 lbs, more than an R1-9; next in line the R27/30, about 80,000; R10's at 77,000 [iirc] and R32, 38 etc at some 68,000 lbs. With equal horsepower I'd almost say take each of those types in that order and you're going from slowest to fastest in the order given.
I'd make an exception for the R10 being faster at top speed a la Steve B thinking.[but not accelerating]. BTW the R1-9 weighed in about 84,000 lbs give or take a few hundred depending on class. But they were a horse of a different color so I didn't count them in...at top speed they'd roll along with the rest.
Never heard of nor ran nor rode an R16 that was faster than an R10 OR R1-9 unless you'd compare a good train of R16 to a bad one of others.
I only rode an R16 in express mode once; that was on the "F" in the R46 substitute days it never got any faster than 35 even under a full field of green. When it reached the GT near Woodhaven it acted like it was actually relieved to be going slow! They whined and groaned when given the throttle.
wayne
Makes you wonder if the R-16s even had the final field shunt step at all.
Sure they did ... that's what got them up past 20! Heh.
The way I understood it, it was the R-1/9s that could outrun the R-10s, although I'd have to see it to believe it. We'd have to hear from someone who actually rode on an A train of R-16s in the 50s. Hey, Karl, did you ever do so? Anyone else?
The R-10 pretty much dominated the A in my day. There were 50 R-16's assigned to the A (6300 series) about a year before I left the city, and the only time I can remember riding one for sure on the IND was a trip from Grant Ave to Wavecrest.
The Thundering Herd dominated the A until the late 70s, when the slant R-40s took over.
How fast did the R-16s go on the Howard Beach-Broad Channel stretch? I rode on an A train in July of 1969 on that segment, and once we cleared the bridge, all bets were off. That train took off as though it had a Saturn V booster strapped to it!
I thought they moved out pretty darn good, much better than their speed on the Jamaica train.
R16's did good on the southbound/downhill Broadway-Jamaica Express.
Didn't/doesn't the BMT have lower voltage than the IND ? It would explain the difference in performance of AB's, R7/9's, and R16's when traversing the two railroads ?
In the 1940's & 1950's it seemed to be standard knowledge of subway fans that the BMT el's voltage was 550 volts. At that time I was strictly a BMT fan and just assumed that the entire transit system operated on the same voltage.
I was under the understanding that the Rockaway Line being governed by LILCO was at 550 volts too. I have always had problems with the R44s dying out at Gaston or Holland entering the Beach Channel Substation territory. Once on the flats, everything from the R10s up rocked and rolled. On the subject of field shunts for the R16s, I noticed one bank of grids missing on every R16 WH including 6398 ay TMNY. A probable TA mod being the associated grid wiring is disconnected at the switch box casing. BTW, the R16s did NOT have a controllable field shunt (LOCAL EXPRESS switchover). Today's current configuration is
1) Forward
2) Reverse
3) Spotting/coast
4) Switch
5) Dynamic
6) Series
7) Parallel
8) Motor Reset
Yesterdays configuration was
1) Forward
2) reverse
3) Spotting/coast
4) Series
5) dynamic
6) Side signs (?)
7) Parallel
8) Reset
I'm almost positive that switching was energized alongside its respective direction, 1 or 2, its been a while. Maybe my friends at Branford can correct me on that. 6398 could take power from a GOH R32 and vice versa so the logic sounds reasonable taking the 6 wire out of the equasion.
Heat, fan and P.A. shared the same electric portion pins, with separate voltages to control the P.A.
Let the beatings begin!
Side signs on 6 wire?! Harry, you're losing it!
Old-school SMEE had a redundancy: in switching, both the 6
wire and the GS wire were energized. The "ENERCON" mods were
first done ca 1984 with the rebuilds of the Corona cars. The 6
wire was turned into the local/express wire and the redundancy
in switching was therefore removed. Around 1991, there was a fire
in the Clark St. tubes (I think that's the location) in which two
passengers died because it was impossible to make PA announcements
with the fans off. This was a known problem, because on old-school
cars the PA control rides on top of the H trainline, but management
was not willing to spend the money to fix it until this incident.
The GOH cars generally had 4-row portions and so it was simple to
grab an extra trainline. On the old 3-row cars, the proposed solution
was to disconnect the enercon feature and re-use the 6 wire, yet
again, for the PA control. I don't know how many cars were actually
retrofitted this way. Instead, most of the 3-row cars were given
new portions. AFAIK, the only 3-row cars left on the system are
that small group of mainline R36 cars.
It should have been possible to control a GOH R32 from the R16,
but in the other direction, I don't think the R16 would have taken
power unless the ENERCON switch was in the LOCAL position.
I'm losing it alright Jeff. Switch did share the GS and I forgot what the 6 wire did too. I preferred the old PA setup. When kids got to the PA, simply turning off the heat/PA momentary tripped the circuit breaker of the energized microphone, where ever it was. If a conductor was too much for the P.A., I could silence him/her. Now that the curcuits are separate, you can't do that. BTW, 6398 was able to take power from both ends M.U.d with GOH cars including dynamic.
In addition to Karl B's post, I'll add (for all the negativism about the old BMT standards being slow)that an older BMT Conductor I met on the job once told me when he worked the Standards over the BMT and into the IND to Continental that once the old Standards got past Queens Plaza they went like the horse let out of the barn.
For Engine Brake I'll add I never thought about that when I worked the Rockaways, true, no equipment was very peppy on the Peninsula part of the line but on the flats they could run, not only because of the closer stops on the peninsula either.
I can attest to the R1/9's having worked them as well as riding them. What the R-10's had over the R1/9's was much faster acceleration and faster braking. So on a short run, the 10's would easily dust the 9's. A perfect example was the run south of 59th on 8th where at best there was one skipped local stop between. On the longer runs once the 9's had gotten up to speed, they were a couple of MPH faster than the 10's but it was no major difference. You'd slowly creep past the 10's with balls to the wall once you were up to speed. Getting there on some of the R1/9's that didn't have a lot of motors in the consist was a problem but they were slightly faster.
No experience on the 16's though. Couldn't tell ya ...
Was it true the R-10s accelerated 40% faster than the R-1/9s? I always felt the oldtimers were no slouch when it came to acceleration. The bull and pinion gear pitch rose at a steady clip. One other thing I remember about the R-1/9s was they would coast a lot more on long express runs than on local runs. When we took those AA trains to the Museum of Natural History on two occasions in May of 1967, the motorman kept the power on all the way between stations. Between 59th and 72nd, the gear pitch got up to E above middle C and stayed there until the train reached the station. For some reason, I'm almost positive they were running 3-car AA trains on Sundays back then. Certainly no more than 4 cars.
IIRC the R1-9 acceleration rate was 1.9 MPHPS, and the R10 and up was 2.5 MPHPS. Your 40% figure was close, I guess 35% more like it, or 36 or so.
The R1-9 lent themselves beautifully to coasting on express runs; with any SMEE train once you shut off the dynamic circuits set up and you got dynamic drag so in normal operation you had to remain in power to keep speed up. (On locomotives you have to go into set up manually, the first notch in dynamic)
I had my tricks for kicking out the dynamic drag on R10's and some later SMEE's but it didn't work on all of them. It was fun but you had to remember when you made a station stop you wouldn't have dynamic brake. On your beloved CPW Northbound I'd shut off just north of 86th, kick back into switching momentarily or flip the Control Breaker or Switch off to make the dynamic drop out and by manipulating the brake valve coasted right into 125; southbound IIRC It was 86th-59th st.
Yes indeed there were 3 car AA's when they had the R1-9 after the PM rush and on weekends. Not much fun; of course for obvicious reasons when the R32's took over [drat] the minimum was 4 cars.
They must have gone to 4-car AA trains of R-1/9s by the fall of 1967, as I don't remember seeing any 3-car trains then. I definitely remember 4-car AA trains of R-32s. I got into the habit of counting cars in a train early on. It's funny, but the more I think about it, back then I wouldn't count the first car, thinking it was a locomotive in that sense and not a passenger car. Believe it or not, I didn't even realize those trains were powered by electricity until some time later. I never asked; nobody told me. As a 10-year-old, I thought those throbbing air compressors were actually engines.
As for coasting, those prewar D trains would still be under power at 81st St. I remember standing on the northbound platform and hearing the bull and pinion gears wailing away. Of course, the R-10s would be at full speed as they bore down on that station.
BTW, what would happen if you switched the dynamic breaker back on while the train was still moving?
You may be right about 4 car R1-9 AA's, and I wouldn't say or know for sure when 3 car or 4 car ones were run. I worked a PM yard trick switching at 168 st during the summer of 67 and almost positive we cut them down to 3 cars after the rush. Not bible truth but almost positive I remember seeing 3 car GG's too. Could just be fading memory.
I'm almost positive the timers on CPW southbound began just south of 86 st and from there it was downgrade, maybe it depended on the M/M how much coasting was done but I did quite a bit of it. On a SMEE of course unless you dropped the dynamic out you had to remain in power. It wasn't the dynamic breaker I dropped, it was the control cutout which cut all control power; the r10-22 had fuses so it wouldn't be an easy thing to do under way.
I'd only flip the control breaker off for a second then back on; on the types of cars this trick worked on that was it, the dynamic didn't come back unless you went into power and let the power circuits run back up, then you'd get dynamic again. When I'd do my coasting into 59 or 125 with an R10 you could hear the brake shoes grinding all the way to a stop. All air.
I used to make station stop that way with the dynamic out. I liked hearing the cast iron brake shoes screech to the final stop and it was smoother being the dynamic and shoes didn't blend evenly despite the design to do so with the inshot valves and early J1 Relays still on. For some reason the PCM controlled R10s didn't have that dynamic drawback in coast but you were more likely to find that on WH cars, mostly R27/30s. Still got your fuse puller?
I used to make station stops that way with the dynamic out. I liked hearing the cast iron brake shoes screech to the final stop and it was smoother being the dynamic and shoes didn't blend evenly despite the design to do so with the inshot valves and early J1 Relays still on. For some reason the PCM controlled R10s didn't have that dynamic drawback in coast but you were more likely to find that on WH cars, mostly R27/30s. Still got your fuse puller?
Yes I do!
That raises another question: with the dynamic out, would you have to revert to AMUE-style braking?
Got the answer on that one if anyone cares. AA's were a center cut, 8 cars rush, 4 cars off peak ... that was pretty much normal. And since the GG's were 6 cars, a three car chop was normal there I would suppose as well, assuming you had singles to cut down the middle.
That's right. The GG had only 3 cars late nights and weekends in the early 1960's. The Jamaica Ave el line (now the J) also had only 3 cars late nights. The Lex avenue L in Brooklyn (with the open end gate cars) had only 2 cars off peak so they could operate with a 2 man crew.
Thanks for the extended info. I can remember 3 car AA as well, the practice must have been discontinued a la Steve B in later 67. Of course as Selkirk says it was 4's but he was a bit behind me, a few years.
One of my boo-boo's of my career and I was new then so an easy error was bringing a 3 car AA into 207 st yard, for Low-air; had to dump the air, had a call on signal (stop and proceed) hiding in a blind spot after the crossover from Dyckman......couldn't get my air up as a good-compressor car was gapped, didn't want to take a chance cutting brakes out to move (On the prewar equipment you could apply power without a charged brake pipe)...by the time the car inspector got there to help me "bug"or 3rd-rail jumper a good car I had the A line tied up 30 minutes. Oh well, my first letter of caution.
No I don't have my fuse puller (for Engine Brake) but still have my badge (70389) and wear it at train shows.
Heh. Holding up the railroad, *NOW* I'm proud of ya, Ed! I'd have to guess for 3 cars on the AA at the time, the consist must have normally been 6 then since the typical rule was "cut the bitch in the middle" and back off ... woohoo! We've got a gap filled!
Mustn't have been a 32 then. I remember how the AA could ALWAYS be counted on to be full of nothing but 32's when I was on board ... I *hated* those guys since I did the rushes both as conductor and motorman and could NEVER get a solid block by the time I got to pick. So of course, me and my trusty prewars since they only plied the rails largely at rush hour and got put back on the layup as QUICKLY as they could get the pigs off the rails.
As a conductor, I got 32's every now and then but NEVER as a motorman. Loved to kibbitz it up on the PA on the 32's and did quite an amusing AM light show for the geese, with color and commentary since I was moonlighting at the time on WBAI 99.5 and WLIR-FM 92.7 ... I enjoyed my PA time but somebody turned me in. Back to the R9's. :)
Where would the conductor be stationed on a 3-car train of single 60-footers?
You tempt me too much, bro ... in the rear cab getting it on. Sheesh, gotta tell you EVERYTHING?!?! Heh.
In all sincerity, don't know. I would imagine it would depend on the mood - on a four car, your "spot" was a lot easier to determine. Never did anything less than 8 myself, usually ten cars.
Even in the 1980's, I remember 4 car AA/K trains on weekends. Almost always, they were R42's.
And of course the R9s were easier to coast for another reason:
you could center the reverser and have both hands free!
Spotting drag in coast was, by design, supposed to be imperceptible,
but in those bad old days of poor maintenance, high coasting currents
were a problem. The trick of killing the control cutout should work
on every SMEE car because that de-energizes the #3 wire.
Heh. Secret revealed. I'd actually step out of the cab every now and then and scare the crap out of the geese. "WHO'S DRIVING THE TRAIN?!?! Why Mr. Nobody of course ..." Try doing that today ...
Look, Ma, no hands!:-) Kind of like cruise control on a subway train.
As long as you didn't accidentally lock the cab door with the key still in the cab..
Then you just kicked the door in. Just like the kids do when they want to give their "shout-outs" on the PA.
Now that you mention it, those cab doors aren't exactly intended for maximum security.
Heh. Half the time, they didn't really close back in the old days. That's why you'd just toss your wedge in there anyway just to keep it from hitting you in the face. I'd often put the board down to wedge under it to keep it from moving too.
That would have made for a VERY ungroovy day. Heh.
Well you CAN do that today. All you have to do is place the cutting key beneath the R46 controller while you're holding it down. Then you have hands free operation. You could also have a job free life if you do this.
Heh. Nah, only reason I did that once was because I had a buddy spotting me who had just given me yet another "don't tell the guys in school car about this" "tip" and I just had to try it. Back in 1970, if you were accepted by fellow crew, they'd show you some fun tips. The TA didn't take itself quite so seriously back then so folks would have a bit of fun so long as it didn't endanger the geese.
I was repeatedly told in school though that it couldn't be done and being a real live contrarian myself, I was amused to see that once again, "everything you know is wrong." :)
I never got daring enough to coast by centering the reverser! Guess there was always the "what if" even though I was only in my early 20's then. On an R1-9 a beakie orsupervisor could tell you were doing that back when the destination sign lights worked.....those lights would go out if you centered the reverser.
Killing the control cutout didn't work on all SMEE cars, at least from my experience. IIRC it wouldn't work on the R26 and up Westinghouse cars. I seem to rmember trying to coast from a dead stop on the Corona Yard lead, no power applied at all, and once I was up to maybe 3 MPH the dynamic drag cut in. I can't remember every circumstance exactly but there was quite a variation in things that happened with different types of equipment and mixes.
BTW for those who don't know on AFAIK all prewar NYCT equipment [except perhaps the Multi's and BMT experimentals...I don't know]including the original IRT stuff it you centered the reverser the pilot valve meaning dead man feature was deactivated. On the R10 and up once you moved the brake valve into a release or low service position the pilot valve was activated so it was impossible to coast and let go of the controller handle/dead man.
You might be right about the Westinghouse CAM control cars.
I don't have as much experience with those things but I think
the dynamic brake loop is always set up regardless of the 3 wire.
In my case, did it with an R4 motor car, and it did work. CPW northbound. Needless to say, didn't do it for long, it was more of a "ah-hah ... you're right about that" kinda thing. After all that training about "don't let it slip outta yer fingers" it was amusing to see that I COULD eat a sandwich and motor. Heh.
As Big Ed pointed out, the giveaway was the side destination signs going out with the reverse key in neutral. IIRC by 1970 they hardly ever worked anymore. Chances are if a light bulb burned out (and they were wired in series), they didn't bother to replace it. I don't think I saw an illuminated side sign on an R-1/9 after 1968, and the last time I saw one was on an E train at 42nd St. as we were getting off our A train.
Get this: I actually saw a backlit side destination sign on a green R-10 in 1987-88 after NEVER seeing a backlit sign when they ran on the A.
Now you know why we didn't turn in a "bad order" when we spotted that. Heh.
I found that the R-6-2 was the fastest of the R-1/9 class; I don't know if being GE-equipped had anything to do with it; although some of the R-9 were also GE, weren't they? I had a few rocket rides on the R-6-2's, most notably motors #1233, #1277 and #1254 occupying places in my journals as being especially fast. #1233's Bull gears actually got up to "A" above Middle C. Steve B can translate this into actual speed.
wayne
To get the kind of response you speak of did the train have to be pure R 6-2 or could they be a mix. IRC that the 1/9's on the E-f could really roll on the Queens Blvd cut off between Roosevelt and Queesns Plaza and down grade in the East River tunnel.
No, they never ran in solid consists. Mixed R-6-3, R-6-2, R-6-1 and R-7, with an occasional high-numbered R-4 thrown in, mostly in the 800 series. In the cases I mentioned, each had as its lead motor an R-6-2.
wayne
A lot depended on how many good motors any particular train had. Chances are that F train with 1233 in the lead which got up to A-440 had very few bad motors, if none at all. Conversely, that R-4 D train you took in September of 1970 probably had a lot of dead motors, if it was as sluggish as you say it was.
The highest bull and pinion gear pitch I ever heard was Ab above middle C on the BMT standards in the 14th St. tunnel, and they hit that pitch regularly. That's about 50 mph. Of course, they needed all the help they could get on the upgrade. Can't say for sure if the R-7/9s got up that high when they ran there. The very first D train I ever took along CPW sang out an F# above middle C when the motorman reapplied power after coasting, and may have topped out a half-step higher at G. A-440 is serious speed, 50-55 or thereabouts. Of course, with no speedometers, this is all speculation. A tunnel always gives the impression of high speed, and noise amplifies the effect. Maybe that's why the R-10s always seemed to be going even faster than they actually were. Oh BTW, what was the noise level like at Sutphin Blvd. on that rocket F train of R-10s you took back in '81?
That sleepy "D" was so sluggish that even the fans had trouble turning! You're right; probably a bunch of deadheads in there; #561 laboured mightily trying to pull its load. It was a snail's-pace up the Brighton express (a local had conked out in Avenue "H" station), a ponderous parade beneath Prospect Park and a death-march over the Manhattan Bridge.
As for the R-10 "F", expertly led by a screaming #3080 - it was deafening especially in the flat-out stretch after it cleared the Elmhurst timers. We rounded the curve out of Grand at a very good clip. Then it was off to the races as the T/O wrapped it up. Add the roar of the motors and whine of the helical-cut gears to the buzzing of the bracket fans and the thunderous sound of the wheels on the rails - I am sure it was at least 90db, perhaps closer to 95. As fast as the R-6-2 at least on the Sutphin straightway. A REAL fun ride; too bad the R-10s didn't appear there more often.
wayne
Ah, but Sutphin Blvd had to be the ultimate, if that train was going even faster than between Roosevelt and Continental.
As for helical-cut gear pitch, I seem to remember a whine somewhere around fourth-line D on the treble staff when the R-10s got up to full speed. Those A trains I saw thundering past 81st St. were whining at about that pitch.
Too bad camcorders weren't around when the R-10s ruled on the A.
The trouble is the R1-9's were notorious for "nosing", that is, the front truck of the first car would slam from side to side rapidly. This was especially a problem in the early 1950's. Sometimes the motorman would have to slow the train down. I don't know if the nosing was caused by the truck swivelling rapidly or if the truck was shifting laterally. They seem to have substantially solved the problem a decade later, but it never went away completely.
If I remember correctly, the problem was actually that the wheels had "gullied" near the flanges and would want to climb out. In the mid 1950's, Coney got into the wheel-truing business and as they replaced them, the problem minimized a bit with the re-trued wheels. I remember hearing about that problem when I came on board and yes, they'd still thunk on you every now and then. And yes, it was a lateral shift and an attempt to ride up the flange and then drop back. While it was more pronounced at the front, many of the coupled cars would try to do it as well.
Yes, I remember riding a consist of R-16's on the "A" line in the 1950's - of course I was a child at the time. It was memorable because that was the very first time I had ever ridden a train on the "A" line that WAS NOT an R-10. Also because it was the first time I had ridden a subway train that had the seats covered in that RED leather like material (hey I was a kid - I thought it was leather!). The trip started at Bway-ENY and ended at 34th St - Penn Station, where I took my first REAL railroad train ride (I said it was a memorable event!). I remember the signage was; (North):Wash Hts 207 St (South): Wavecrest; (Route): A Wash Hts - 8th Av EXP. What I do remember was that the trip was quick, and much quieter than the R-10's!
I also remember seeing a picture of the R-16, signed as an "A" on the T.A. maps that they published (the cover); prior to this the picture was of an R-10 (of course signed as an "A").
The Wavecrest destination was seen on other R-10's in service, and was in view on the published picture.I guess not all trains went all the way to the end of the line or for some reason the extension wasn't ready in total.
The startling memory of the railroad trip was standing on the platform at Penn Sta as the train pulled in - the engine was a streamlined bullet nosed one with HUGE wheels and driving rods - impressed the heck out of me I can tell you - and crossing the East River crossing from Queens into the Bronx as the rain thread it's way to the Northeast line toward Boston. It was a fast rip up to New London.
I remember during the summer of 1965 or 66, long after the IND R16's were theoretically sent to the Eastern Division, one Saturday night, I rode a GG from Roosevelt to Woodhaven Blvd on a 6 car R16. I don't know why it was there; it should have been a 3 or 4 car R1-9. It was immaculate. I never saw it there again until they were exiled in stages to RJ/RR/EE/GG after 1967.
I love these eyewitness accounts! Keep 'em coming! That GG train of R-16s you took was the result of the Jamaica Yard Crisis of 1966. As has been documented, in August of that year, R-1/9s assigned to Jamaica Yard began failing at an alarming rate due to deferred maintenance. 20 R-38s were on the property and were quickly pressed into service, with one trainset going to the E and one to the F. It still wasn't enough to cover service, and so 32 R-16s were borrowed from the BMT and fitted with GG signs. The ripple effect continued, resulting in a stay of execution for a group of condemned BMT standards. These were pulled off the scrapline, had the S for scrap on their sides painted over, and returned to revenue service. The R-16s remained on the GG from September of 1966 until February 1967, when they were returned to the BMT.
You also answered another question I had: the length of the R-16 consists on the GG.
I'm glad to hear I wasn't losing my sanity. It did happen. I was only 10 at the time, but was in shock, almost as much so as when an R9 showed up on the Jamaica El in Spring 1968. the R16/GG. It might have been 8 cars on a weekday. It should have been cut to 3 or 4 like an R1-9, don't know why it wasn't.
Fitting GG signs on an R16 shouldn't have been hard. Didn't they have rollsigns for A to H and 1 to 16 on the same rollers the whole time ?
I guess the Standards that were put back were the unrefurbished Southern Division ones that the R32's finished off. The R38 were supposed to replace some R1's, not the 350-400 rebuilt standards on the Eastern Division. Removing 32 R16's from the Eastern Division in 1966-67 explains why less #14 consists had R16's from then on.
I've heard the R-38s were supposed to be assigned to the D to promote IND service to Coney Island, even thought the connection to the Culver line had been in existence since October 30, 1954. Then when the Jamaica R-1/9s began dropping like flies, the R-38s wound up going there.
IIRC virtually all of the unrebuilt BMT standards were retired by 1965.
Actually, as I remember it, the BMT's "Brightliners" went to the D train to do that. The 38's were STRICTLY a Queens phenom for many years, as subs for the slopes on the F and a few made it to the E to fill the gaps between R1/9's that couldn't make it through the tunnel. But I remember the 38's as being STRICTLY Queens when they came on board.
Too bad you didn't stay on that A train and go up CPW. Oh well...
Thanks for the eyewitness account! IIRC the Mott Ave. station didn't open until later, and trains terminated at Wavecrest in the meantime.
Did that train run express in Brooklyn?
In 1969 Eastern Division got a few dozen R42s. I think these were 4854 thru 4921 and eventually thru 4949. They tested some of the first batch of R40M out there too, but only for a little while. I remember one specimen which we found on the "LL" back on August 4, 1969-a 96-degree day. It was so cold the conductor was a penguin! :o>
wayne
Should plan a railfan trip before this all happens.
I think it would be great to have one to investigate the remains of the Fulton El, the various yards, eastern tip of the J line east of Parsons --- with R32's mixed with Flushing Redbirds, withe an express run down Boradway Brooklyn too.
The March of Dimes Redbird trip last year was supposed to go over the Williamsburg Bridge and along at least a small portion of the Eastern Division lines. Due to signal problems and other delays, however, this wasn't able to occur.
That isn't to take away from how wonderful the trip was despite not being able to cross the WillieB.
Seeing that the Redbirds are still largely around, and that last year's trip was a success, maybe those with connections could propose that at least one (maybe even two?) such fundraiser be held this year covering the Eastern Division lines, the Rockaway Line, and the Concourse Line using maybe the last ACF Redbirds this time as opposed to the R33/36s used last year.
Adam, Sounds like a good idea to me.
Mr t__:^)
The only three questions that I have is 1) When does the GO take effect, and 2) how does equipment get turned at Bway Junction? Certainly there would still be a track connection to the Yard somehow!!! 3) Did someone forget about Canarsie Residents, what will be the plan for them?
-Stef
>>>When does the GO take effect<<<
We'll let you know when the date becomes available.
>>>How does equipment get turned at Bway Junction? Certainly there would still be a track connection to the Yard somehow!!!<<<
They would have to turn at Atlantic Av. Of course this would be on the portion that is staying up.
>>> Did someone forget about Canarsie Residents, what will be the plan for them?<<<
Can you say "shuttle bus"?
Aye! I don't know if the Canarsie Residents are going to enjoy shuttling through the area, but some transportation is better than none at all. Someone's gonna make a fuss about losing train service just to knock an el down.
I can see a train turning at Atlantic for movement to the yard. Hopefully by this point, they will have made the necessary track changes for movement to the yard from the portion of the structure that will remain up, otherwise I can only see sets of R-42s wrong railing down the flyover onto the Parsons Bound J platform.
-Stef
"Aye! I don't know if the Canarsie Residents are going to enjoy shuttling through the area, but some transportation is better than
none at all. Someone's gonna make a fuss about losing train service just to knock an el down."
So a new tunnel will replace a stretch of L? In the long run, Canarsie residents may come to like this. I know I would (but yes, the shuttle bus period will be annoying).
[So a new tunnel will replace a stretch of L? ]
No tunnel, the el will be streamlined, few months ago there was a post with the new alignment.
Arti
He's thinking of another idea that was tossed around-- to move the line into the nearby LIRR freight tunnel.
[He's thinking of another idea that was tossed around-- to move the line into the nearby LIRR freight tunnel. ]
Wouldn't this be too costly as underground stations would be needed?
Arti
There already is an underground station. South of there, it's above ground. It would also allow a cross-Brooklyn extension.
Now what about the freight tunnel :-)
IMO the Bay Ridge line would lend for interesting transit extension.
Arti
"I can see a train turning at Atlantic for movement to the yard. Hopefully by this point, they will have made the necessary track changes for movement to the yard from the portion of the structure that will remain up, otherwise I can only see sets of R-42s wrong railing down the flyover onto the Parsons Bound J platform"
Why don't they just run the L to Atlantic? It's staying up anyway.
The station entry to the platform will need to be reconfigured.
-Stef
The center platform will be left in place(partially) and used for a new electrical room and signal room.As such I imagine the mezz will be left as is with the addition of locked gates to access the center plat.
I think a cross-over on the L immediately north of Broadway Junction was recently installed to facilitate turnbacks.
--Mark
One possibility is a 1 track shuttle from Atlantic to Rockaway Pk. using the southbound track, which won't be affected by the curve removal.
I doubt a simple shuttle bus 24/7 is a viable alternative. Canarsie and ENY residents will throw fits.
There'd better be a T/O at both ends, and the train would have to be 10 cars long (build temporary platforms on the track you ain't using). At 3 in the afternoon the crowd on that shuttle train is horrible, I can't imagine what it would be like during rush hour.
zman is correct.
Actually, I've heard two scenerios: (1) A shuttle bus between Rockaway Pkwy and Broadway Junction; and (2) A Canarise Line Shuttle train that will operate between Rockway Pkwy and Livonia (allowing for people to make transfers to the New Lots Ave. Line -- BUT the transfer would be FREE!). Canarsie Line trains would be turned around via the switch just north of the station.
BMTman
Actually, I've heard two scenerios: (1) A shuttle bus between Rockaway Pkwy and Broadway Junction; and (2) A Canarise Line Shuttle train that will operate between Rockway Pkwy and Livonia (allowing for people to make transfers to the New Lots Ave. Line -- BUT the transfer would be FREE!). Canarsie Line trains would be turned around via the switch just north of the station.
I don't see how the first alternative would work for any length of time. There's a lot of rush-hour ridership out of Canarsie, so it would take a massive amount of busing to get people to Broadway Junction.
They managed before on a slightly smaller scale: two years ago a major fire in a warehouse adjacent to the Sutter Ave. station of the El was deemed structurally unsound by the FDNY. So for the rest of the week shuttle bus service was provided between Livonia and Bway Junction (shuttle L trains ran btwn Rock Pkway and Livonia only).
I was part of the rush-hour crowd. It was a nusiance, but somehow NYCT was able to pull it off w/o alot of hardship. (Lots of extra buses were commandeered into service).
BMTman
"Lots of extra buses were commandeered into service."
That's the point, though, isn't it? Except for the busiest lines, brief bustitution for the duration of an emergency or quick track work DOES work. But it takes too many buses and too many supervisors "wrangling" buses at each end to keep turnaround fast and smooth. I've seen this on CTA -- they bus around L disruptions very well, but it takes every bus and supervisor they can spare to do so, so it's not sustainable over several days, especially if those days include weekdays and therefore "rush" periods.
They managed before on a slightly smaller scale: two years ago a major fire in a warehouse adjacent to the Sutter Ave. station of the El was deemed structurally unsound by the FDNY. So for the rest of the week shuttle bus service was provided between Livonia and Bway Junction (shuttle L trains ran btwn Rock Pkway and Livonia only).
I was part of the rush-hour crowd. It was a nusiance, but somehow NYCT was able to pull it off w/o alot of hardship. (Lots of extra buses were commandeered into service).
BMTman
Thats a beautiful neighborhood to be walking along, can't wait to take walks up Pennsylvania or Junius
I remember once several years ago how a T/O, on a wet night no less, did the subway equivalent of putting the "pedal to the medal" around that curve, on a Manhattan-bound train. It was the only time I was ever afraid to be on one.
There is no timer on that curve to "trip" a speeding train?
I remember reading about a Chicago Transit Authority subway train which flipped off the Loop El and down into the street after rounding a famous curve at excessive speed.
There is a grade timer on the "S" curve north of Sutter Ave. Maybe after he zoomed out of Sutter he had to 'hit the brakes' on the El over there.
I doubt he could have gone through it w/o going into emergency.
BMTman
The motorman of the 16:30 J out of Broad St. is also what we used to call a "cowboy". He loves to whip around the curve north of Canal St. at 35-40 MPH.
>...the subway equivalent of putting the "pedal to the medal"
That's called "wrapping it up". Just lucky he didn't actually wrap the train up around something!
That reminds me of the Union Square tragedy. The car that was wrapped around the beam/pole really appeared to be two different cars, perpendicular to one another.
I've heard teachers say "Wrap it around" and "Bring it around"
Wow!
Doesn't the L line have a very unique station? One where one platform is underground and the other is above ground? Will this be affected by the reconstruction?
Howlong with this reconstruction take? I assume that the TA will be substituting with shuttle buses, right?
Wilson Ave is the station you're thinking about. It comes before B'way Junction and won't be affected by the changes at Atlantic Ave., which is on the other side of the Junction.
Thank you.
Wilson is Like that? I know that Aberdeen and Bushwick avenue is underground
Wilson Avenue is the station half above ground and half at ground. While it appears the station is a subway it is actually at surface. from the Manhattan bound platform you just walk to the fare control which is at street level. The Canarsie bound track asnd platform are above the manhattan bound platform.
If you'd like a tour of this station e-mail me **off*site** and we can discuss a time for the tour. Of course- no magic markers or spray paint, etc. will be allowed. This tour offer is legit and is not a sting. However, as a NYCT employee, if we see anyone defacing the system we can have the police called.
[If you'd like a tour of this station e-mail me **off*site** and we can discuss a time for the tour. Of course- no magic markers or spray paint, etc. will be allowed. This tour offer is legit and is not a sting. However, as a NYCT employee, if we see anyone defacing the system we can have the police called. ]
What's up with this disclaimer?
Arti
Simple- another poster with anti-social tendencies thought a previous offer was a sting. This trip would be in daylight hours since some stations are not the safest overnight.
This tour would cover stations from Myrtle to Canarsie.
LOL
Arti
OH its ok Everybody he means me, the ruthless vandal whos only goal in his what is to be short life is to destroy NYCTA equipment, yea, ignoring his other artistic achievements outside of the yards, oh god im not gonna start this argument again.
Oh no...could we not visit this again?
I obviously was not reading that topic you are referring to.
Arti
Hey why didnt you catch me at Jay that time my man?
Sounds like a SubTalk walking tour to me. Making it oficial ?
BTW-Did you get that article I mailed you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually the lower station is on ground level. There are no steps to get out of the station. It appears to be underground because it is in a tunnel, but it never goes below.
I always hated that curve, as it slowed trains to a crawl. Good riddance. I will miss the old Atlantic Ave. complex, but most of it is unnecessary today.
Yes it is true that the Canarsie Line is to be reconfigured at the Atlantic Ave complex and that the current Manhattan bound track is to be torn down but service is not going to be cut back.
The plan is to move the Manhattan bound track to be next to the Canarsie bound track.
The unused portion of the old Pitkin Avenue tracks were the old K line trains were laid up is currently being rebuilt for this with new access to East New York Yard and the Jamaica Lines being developed.
There will be no reason to stop service except when its time to make the connection to the new track which can be done over a weekend.
The TA tried to have a bus shuttle between Broadway Junction and Sutter Avenue Station but Canarsie residents had that killed.
Thank You
I doubt a shuttle buses will work. The most likely scenario will be a shuttle train from Canarsie to Sutter where passengers have the option to transfer to the 3 at Livonia. I believe the southbound track will be left alone...
You are right!! I think that Junius-Livonia xfer looks pretty good right about now. So good it might becoe a reality(at least on Metrocard).
1975 the 3 sent to PATCO there system (auto train control) & (auto train protection ) same as the new metro 1976, though cars different. The 3 all in early 40es., good guys all. Now remember they hired on in early 60ies as bus drivers with D.C.Transit. Always had there act together.In 1975 there staying in a nice hotel in Philly - food money etc.Pretty good for a former bus driver. They stayed about 6-7 weeks, mostly working 6 days a week. Hell they did'nt want to come to Washington,good life. They did a great job breaking in the first group of new t/o 15-20 all ex bus drivers,& the rest is history.
What are you trying to say?
I heard that the R32s that used to run on the E have been replaced with R46s. Anyway, what is the oldest train running in the system. If it's a Redbird or whatever, what R# is it?
The R32 cars are still running on the E. They just also use the R46
Soem R32 cars that ran on the E are now running on the R.
I saw a train of R-32s on the "R" train on Sunday April 15th at the DeKalb Avenue station while I was on a "D" train to Coney Island.
BMTJeff
Probably the oldest trains in the system are the R26s, which run on the (5) and maybe some (4) and (6) as well. After the redbird retirement is complete, the R32 will be the oldest car class, lasting even after its cousin the R38, and the R40S, R40M, and R42 are retired.
:-) Andrew
It's a safe bet the R-32s will last 50 years, if not longer.
The Redbird retirement will take about another year ot two at this rate. Even after all of the R142s are delivered, there will still be 425 Redbirds.
The oldest car running in passenger service is an R-26 Redbird # 7750. It can currently be found on the 5.
Actually, probably almost a decade ago, it was the R46s on the E that were replaced by R-32s. Most of the R32s were on the R and G until this swap occured. Today, the E is still mostly R32s with a few R46s. There are R46s still on the G, but look for them to be replaced on or around 8/1 with R68s when the 63rd street tunnel opens and the V and W lines begin. -Nick
Please pardon if this was posted earlier. If it was, I missed it. The article was published on the 7th.
The Washington Post has a peice about Metro's new electronic platform sign system. As anyone who has travelled Metro lately has noticed, they have wonderful new signs that can display all sorts of useful informaiton. Unfortunately, they don't work well.
The signs are capable of displaying time, train arrival, general / promotional info, and emergency messages. They do varying font sizes, graphics, and animated transitions, all in three colors. The train arrival information can include line, destination, minutes to arrival, and train length or out-of-service designation. They're very sophisticated and very slick - when they work.
The article goes into detail about the problems they've been having and why. It boils down to the fact that they picked a low-bidding company with no experience doing anything nearly this big or complex. They got an unreliable system and ended up paying double the contract price. I hope they learned their lesson...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/specials/metrorail/A52163-2001Apr6.html
I saw this system in action. The first ride on Metro with this system started in Union Station. A side for the Shady Grove-bound side of the platform was stuck on "Next Train Not In Service" the entire time. We missed a train, then the next one came in, and it was in service.
Interesting, I had my first sign experience at Union Station, and it worked perfect, at least, on the Wheaton side. Also, ofther signs seemed to be working, like at the Metro Center and Federal Center, although I didn't abserve them that much.
I noticed the signs were having troble like displaying the train destination too late.
Rephrase. Too late? I have never seen that problem.
well after the train entered the station and its halfway in the display says
BLUE LINE
FRAC/SPRING
That isn't a problem. As the train enters the station, it says this:
ORANGE LINE
VIENNA/FAIRFAX
6 CAR TRAIN
ARRIVING
It is only logical to have it say
ORANGE LINE
VIENNA/FAIRFAX
while the train is in the station.
I've watched these signs for some time now. Their operation is logical except it should display the next two arrivals, not one.
For example:
BLUE 3
ADDISON RD MIN
ORANGE 9
N. CARRLTN MIN
Today, I saw some signs that were not only 12 hours off, but would have a totally wrong time.
The TA put them back in service recently on the 6.
Doesn't the 6 have the 142a's ??
yes the six have the R-142A's. the 2 and soon the five will have R-142. expect the R-142 on the two back mid to late may or early june.
yes the six have the R-142A's
I thought so.
the 2 and soon the five will have R-142. expect the R-142 on the two back mid to late may or early june.
Or later !!!
More like NEVER
oh behave now! gon't get into a pessimistic hissyfit! it will happen.(however i kind of agree with you) i still wonder why they are taking so long to bring them back. it doesn't take so long to modify or alter the breaking system or the pads or what ever is taking it longer to stop. also from what i last heard, there was no other problems except the brakes
Stop being so picky.
I cannot tell the difference between a 142 and a 142A since I do not work the IRT (eventually I'll be able to). I'm just passing some info along.
"I cannot tell the difference between a 142 and a 142A since I do not work the IRT"
Zman, I tell you this not to be picky, but to help you out on figuring out which is an R142 and R142A. First, the R142A is made by Kawasaki, and the R142 is made by Bombardier....you can look for the manufacturer's plate on the ends of each car. Second, the R142A has a spiffier design...There is a long narrow piece of artwork featuring the new cars in a bright, "triangled" background. -Nick
you also forgot difference in build quality, structure, bogies, mechanisms, ride quality, and many more.
And that frame around the front end door is sliced into 2 parts on the R142 and just 1 piece on the R142A. Already 1 piece more solid.
the front end of the R-142 is 1/4 fiberglass (top part) and 3/4 stainless steel (bottom part)R-142a is all fiber glass (thats what makes it look "clean sharp" although flimsy)
"I cannot tell the difference between a 142 and a 142A since I do not work the IRT "
Try the obvious.........car numbers.
R-142 Bombardier (like the R-16s) 6301 and up
R-142A Kawasaki (like the R-22s) 72xx and up
Bill "Newkirk"
The R142A's on the No.6 line been running since February. The R142's on the No.2 Line are still not running.
As of Now there are about 10 trains or even more running on the No.6 line and they are being split up for Parkchester and Pelham service. Its fun working pelham you never know what your going to operate. R29,R 33,R36,R62A,R142A. I operated a Redbird, R62A, and R142a all in the same day.
The only problem is the braking problems seem to be sneeking up again. On Tuesday a R142A was taking out of service at 3 AV for a poor braking train.
Right now at least 10 sets of R142a is running on #6 line & i haven't seen R142 over a month now.
Peace
David Justininao
Official NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
BTW: I just start a new job for NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker this past monday & the training is 3 weeks.
I hadn't noticed they were gone; perhaps they were out while I was on Break and thus I didn't get to ride the 6 at all. They seem to be relatively frequent these days. In my trip from 59/51/42 (depending on my mood) to 96th and back again I usually see at least one or two each day.
At one point in March I managed to get one every morning for a week.
Dan
For all of the moaning around here sometimes, it seems more common to see a Redbird than the R142s.
What equipment is used on the L? Anything with a railfan window?
Until the R-143s arrive, everything on the L (R-40, R-40M, R-42) has a railfan window.
Great! Thanks for the info. Is it safe to ride the train out to Canarsie on a Saturday afternoon? I won't be getting off and touring the neighborhood; I'll stay on the platform and then head back to the city.
Is anyone up to a Field Trip on Saturday, April 28?
Canarsie is a safe place to get off, don't worry about anything there.
wayne
I just got the latest DVARP newsletter, and it says that the light rail option has been unanimously dropped in favor of a heavy rail option for the Roosevelt Boulevard corridor. I'm happy, because I've been rooting for Alternative C, the subway with an extension of the Market-Frankford line to meet the new subway at Bustleton and Roosevelt Boulevard. The expressway and rail line of Alternative D I don't like as much because even though I want a subway in my neighborhood, I think I'd feel a little nimbyistic about an expressway tearing through my part of town.
I have a question about Alternative F, which would use the old New York Short Line. Just where is the New York Short Line? Having lived in Philadelphia only a few years I'm not familiar with every abandoned rail line in the city just yet. Is it that line that branches northeast from the CSX line (that the R8 Fox Chase train uses) at Cheltenham station? That's the only line I can find on maps in the area described in the study.
Mark
I'm not familiar with every abandoned rail line in the city just yet. Is it that line that branches northeast from the CSX line (that the R8 Fox Chase train uses) at Cheltenham station?
The New York Short Line is currently known as the CSX Trenton Line and it runs between Falls Jct. and Neshamney Jct. It's called the NYCS because it is the route B&O trains used to take to get to New York markets via the Reading.
Where are Falls Jct and Nashiminy Jct? Is there a track map online anywherethat shows the CSX Trenton line?
Mark
Falls Jct. is right under the Roosevelt Expressway bridge over the Schukyll. Neshameny Jct. is where the CSX Treton line intersects w/ the SEPTA R3 in Neshameny.
Old timetables can be found at http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/crptrel.html
Is it that line that branches northeast from the CSX line (that the R8 Fox Chase train uses) at Cheltenham station?
Yes. It crosses Rhawn near Dungan Rd; Pennypack Creek near Krewstown Rd.; Grant at Welsh; Bustleton near Haldeman; crosses Byberry between Hornig Rd. and Dedaker St.
I noticed the other day that one of the Union Square entrance signs states that "Fare Required." I haven't noticed that anywhere else, what would be the reason to state something that obvious?
Arti
Some entrances to the Rector Street IRT station say that too - "Fare Required at all times, or cross street to other entrance".
However, if you look closely at that sign, you see that the words "Fare Required" are actually pasted over something else that used to be there. Perhaps it was "Token Required" and was changed when they introduced Metrocard?
In other words they try to say that there is no token booth.
Arti
Is it also possible that somebody wanted to make sure people didn't think this was a mezzanine offering a way to cross the street (like you can do under Queens Blvd. without entering fare-control areas)??
The more I think about it, it probably means "no token booth" If I have time, I'll check it out. The other entrances at US don't have that, and IRT, BMT never really had mezzanines like IND.
Arti
The typical IRT/BMT express stop has a mezzanine outside fare control.
Or MVM.
The entrance to the western end of the Manhattan-bound platform at Lorimer St. on the Canarsie used to have a similar sign: Token required at all times. No agent on duty. (Not to mention "To 14th St.- 6th Av.") There was a closed token booth in the late 60s with an iron maiden entrance cage. The setup is the same today, although the iron maiden is a bit more modern. The token booth has been removed.
Some of these stations, such as (1)(9) Rector St. southbound, had no entrances it all for a long time, only exits. The southbound platform at (1)(9) Franklin St. was closed to entry most of the time.
Since the introduction of metro-cards and new iron maidens, it is again possible to enter at these platforms.
By the way, the northbound platform at (3) 145th St. is still an exit only. I don't believe there ever was an entrance turnstile there.
Bob Sklar
It means that there is no token booth, and the only way to enter the system via that entrance is to have a Metrocard to pass through the high wheel turnstile.
According to Railspace news http://www.railpace.com/hotnews/ LIRR is getting automatic train control although the description sounds more like CBTC.
Arti
It's the US&S MicroCab system that can incorporate most forms of ATC/ATO at once.
Does this mean that LIRR has plans ATO in some distant future?
Arti
Probably not as it would be too complicated and too expensive. You will always have two man crews, permissive signals and grade crossing whistling so ATO wouldn;t save them any money.
Well, the LIRR's been thinking of ATO, and semi automatic modes since the 60's. The M-1s and M-2s both have ATO notches on the controller, just past P4. ATO via speed regulation, with manual stopping, etc, might be worth it. The M-1s were also equipped to be fitted with identra signs and all. Actually, they've got lots of features (but no bells and only one whistle ;) that were never implemented, or removed...
ATO on an RR is much more dangerous than on a subway. Subway systems are isolated w/ fences and stuff. On RR's the engineer will still need to be alert, even in ATO so the best way to keep him from dosing off it to have him drive the train.
From unconfirmed sauces,
Slobodan Milosevic will oversee the turn around of G R and V trains at 71st St. Milosevic will bring a number of "administrators" from Belgrade Yugoslavia to form the core of personnel to see to the MOVEMENT of MASSES of the population.
Cars will be brought from the WMATA and MARTA where they are currently being under utilized. NATO will see to the planning of hardware utilization.
Welcome to the NEW WORLD ORDER.
avid
There's something very familiar about that post....
Yes, indeed....I remember a nasty mass-email a few months ago!!!!! Dave P. please take note. -Nick
Damn! Cut down on the weed will you!
Give the bonk a rest!
There is a short but interesting article in the April edition of Guidepostsabout Fifi Newball Blake, an employee in the office of track maintenance of the New York Subway System. Fifi was stricken with ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) about two and a half years ago. The article tells how her co-workers have rallied around her.
It's nice to see how people in the city do still care!
She shouldn't have participated in the article. Someone at the TA will probably put her "No Work Available". The TA has a reputation to uphold you know, they can't be allowing wonderful stuff like this.
I'm not real sure that she is able to work anymore. The article is vague about it in that it only said that she visits the office twice a month. Apparently her illness has progressed to the point that it is all she can do.
Am probably in the wrong place, but am trying all avenues. Does anyone know where I can purchase subway tile (3"x6", white, glossary, square edge, very flat) for a bathroom renovation. Our 1908 home has the same tile that is found in old NYC subway stations and am trying to match.
Thanks.
One of my (admittedly weird) fantasies has always been to tile a bathroom to look like an IRT station, complete with mosaics.
IRT?? But the most appropraite tile job for a bathroom would be Chambers St BMT!
My bathroom is much cleaner than that, and doesn't smell like urine.
Am probably in the wrong place, but am trying all avenues. Does anyone know where I can purchase subway tile (3"x6", white, glossary, square edge, very flat) for a bathroom renovation. Our 1908 home has the same tile that is found in old NYC subway stations and am trying to match.
Try contacting the Transit Authority's stations division. While I doubt they'd sell tiles directly, they might put you in contact with contractors performing station renovations, and the contractors might be willing to let you have old tiles. None of this is guaranteed, of course, but it's probably worth trying.
>>> Try contacting the Transit Authority's stations division. <<<
IIRC in the Daily News article about subway railfans which featured heypaul a few months ago, there was also mention of a railfan from New Jersey who has written extensively about the tiles in the various stations. He would probably know where the tiles come from.
Perhaps one of the regulars here on Sub Talk will post his name and how to locate him, or you could research back issues or the Daily News to locate his name.
Tom
Or try NYCT's Material Sales office. NYCT occasionally has a surplus of materials that it buys. Even if there is no surplus of the tile in question, someone there should be able to determine who makes such tile.
Try Paulet Dennis at (718)694-4071, or go to:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/index.html
David
Or try NYCT's Material Sales office. NYCT occasionally has a surplus of materials that it buys. Even if there is no surplus of the tile in question, someone there should be able to determine who makes such tile.
Try Paulet Dennis at (718)694-4071, or go to:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/index.html
David
I bet it got put there after 1936 - the easiest to duplicate is an IND pattern. You need the following:
4 1/4 square WHITE tile
4 1/4 square COLOR tile
2 1/8 x 4 1/4 BLACK or contrasting COLOR tile.
AGROB-BUCHTAL makes GREAT IND TILE. Just search for "Agrob-Buchtal" in their browser; You can also ask your local tile dealer if they carry or can get this brand.
wayne
I am taking upon myself as a subway fanatic and the fact that I am a little on the strange side, that today I am proclaiming April 19 as Sea Beach Day. It could go over like a lead balloon, but think we could have a special day for each line at some time of the year. Well, I will attempt to get the ball rolling by asking all of my railfan buddies out there to make April 19 from here on in known as Sea Beach Day. Fifty four years ago today I rode the Sea Beach for the first time and it has been a love ever since. I know there are only a very few who share this enthusiasm for my favorite line with me, but what the heck. Maybe on July 20th or thereabouts, Steve 8AVEXP will want that date know as "A Train Day" in honor of his favorite line. I'm sure #1Brighton Express Bob will weigh in with a day for his Brighton Q. Maybe I will have created another monster for our poor esteemed leader Dave. Anyway, today I am proclaiming it as Sea Beach day. I welcome your comments or barbs, whatever the case.
Tell ya what: Whenever I talk about my favorite line, the Flushing IRT, I like to go into specifics, the views the line affords, the look of the stations, the neighborhoods, etc. Do you have anything specific to share about the BMT # 4 or today's (N) train in Brooklyn? Some special memories, some good scenery on the line?
I don't really know Sea Beach myself. It's mostly open cut, right? The LIRR Port Washington Branch is like that in some parts.
One thing I do like about the (N) is that these days it runs different equipment. The three car classes it uses, the R32, R40S, and R68, are as different from each other (appearance-wise) as any B-division cars get.
I also like the Astoria section, short though it is it is attractive. It affords views of the whole uptown Manhattan skyline, and two bridges. Some of the underground stations in Manhattan are attractive too, especially the Lexington Ave/60th St stop.
:-) Andrew
Mr. K: Yes it is mostly open cut in Brooklyn, but what I loved about the Sea Beach from day 1 was those mini-tunnels that the train swooshed through. If you were in a middle car, you would go through those tunnels at breakneck speed into another station, while if you were in the front car you wouldn't get the same thrill because you would be at the edge of another little tunnel. They have four of them at each crossing, but if they had built the line differently it would have been only an overpass instead of a tunnel. Then the thrill would be gone. In fact, the first two outside stops in Brooklyn, 8th Avenue and Ft. Hamilton Parkway are overpasses, but starting at New Utrecht, it becomes little tunnels until past 86th Street. I also liked the delliberate way the train exited the long tunnel after 59th Street. There was anticipation of excitement ahead, and I liked to have a subway outside but below street surface. Most don't but I do.
Those are some of the reasons. Two more. When I was a kid, my favorite number was #4, the designation of the Sea Beach. Today it is
number 44. Also my favorite letter of the alphabet was and still in N----as in Navy, Notre Dame, Nick (my favorite name). Well, there is more but you get the idea.
Go ahead, Fred, tell us who your favorite Dodger was.:-) IIRC he wore number 4.
Nick huh, how come none of the dogs were named Nick or your daughter Nicole(Nicki for short)????
Sorry about the double post
Tell ya what: Whenever I talk about my favorite line, the Flushing IRT, I like to go into specifics, the views the line affords, the look of the stations, the neighborhoods, etc. Do you have anything specific to share about the BMT # 4 or today's (N) train in Brooklyn? Some special memories, some good scenery on the line?
I don't really know Sea Beach myself. It's mostly open cut, right? The LIRR Port Washington Branch is like that in some parts.
One thing I do like about the (N) is that these days it runs different equipment. The three car classes it uses, the R32, R40S, and R68, are as different from each other (appearance-wise) as any B-division cars get.
I also like the Astoria section, short though it is it is attractive. It affords views of the whole uptown Manhattan skyline, and two bridges. Some of the underground stations in Manhattan are attractive too, especially the Lexington Ave/60th St stop.
:-) Andrew
While I can't speak for Fred, I imagine that the Sea Beach he remembers is not quite the N of today. He remembers the express down Broadway, the trip over the Manhattan Bridge, whizzing by DeKalb, express down 4th Av Brooklyn at all times, riding along side the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR when it operated a lot more trains than today, the pass by the CI yards and the incredible Stillwell Av station and views of Coney Island and the ocean.
STG: You have just spoken for me and have hit a bullseye. I told Mr. K t here were other reasons I loved the Sea Beach, but my post was long. You just answered the rest of the reasons I loved the Sea Beach of my childhood. And the Triplex. Oh boy, was that ever a train. I know I would give almost anything to ride a Triplex again some day.
STG: You have just spoken for me and have hit a bullseye. I told Mr. K t here were other reasons I loved the Sea Beach, but my post was long. You just answered the rest of the reasons I loved the Sea Beach of my childhood. And the Triplex. Oh boy, was that ever a train. I know I would give almost anything to ride a Triplex again some day.
I'm not familiar with the Triplex. Please elaborate.
I just checked the rolling stock section. Interesting. No need to respond.
I'd love to ride on a Triplex just once.
"I'd love to ride on a Triplex just once."
Steve B, did you read my post in answer to Fred ? When the Transit Museum 2001 summer calendar of events comes out, I'll e-mail you and mail you a copy. Maybe if you time it right and come into NYC, your wish can come true. Unfortunately you may have to fight Sea Beach Fred for the railfan window, unless Salaam comes into town and beats you both to it !!
If you do decide to come to town to ride the D's, you are assured of a friendly SubTalk show of support like Sea Beach fred got on April 1st.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you're tuned in Steve, that's a fact. I got the royal treatment from my railfan buddies and had one hell of a time. I mean I enjoyed every minute of it. A greater bunch of guys you will not meet anywhere else. But understand this all of you out there, if we do get together and ride the Triplex and it runs on the Brighton line I will be a good sport about it and share and share alike. If, however, we ride it on the Sea Beach line, especially if there is a number 4 on it, well you had better get the hell out of my way and give me plenty of room at that railfan window. But being that I'm such a pleasant fellow, I will probably relent and share it with both Steve and Salaam. The latter gentlemen will be obligated, however, to take a picture of me on the Triplex outside the front car which shows the Triplex, the #4 and me all in a smiling scene.
How about me, I will want the window too
Since you're my pal you get the window on the Brighton first, and I will share the Sea Beach window with you. But this time you must buy me lunch at Nathan's and ride the Cyclone with me. In the front car.
A deal?
"I know I would give almost anything to ride a Triplex again some day."
Well Fred, the Transit Museum runs the D-Types at least 3 times per summer. The past one I rode went to Coney island via the Culver. Sorry, since the "Special" leaves 59th St/Columbus Circle on the 8th Ave. line and travels to the museum at Court St. After a short stay at the museum and a few relay moves, it's on to Coney Island for lunch.
The specials didn't run to the Rockaways because of either trackwork or testing of R-142s. When the summer 2001 Transit Museum calendar booklet, maybe I'll send you one. So save up your nickles and dimes so you can afford some plane fare. We'll do the rest.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: It's deal---and let me know as soon as possible. But all bets could be off if those Triplexes don't run on either the Sea Beach or Brighton Line. That's where I remember the Triplex, that's real Triplex country. OK Bob, I know you were listening in. Are you satisfied I included the Brighton in the pantheon of my cherished memories?
Why not. you copped out the the Brighton was your second favorite line.
Bill since I am now in DC it is only a 5 hour drive to NYC, please let me know also
Congratulations upon proclaiming April 19th as #4 Sea Beach Fred day.
BMTJeff
Thank you Jeff, as always. When you ride that line think a little of me, will you? And let me know about any new carousels you run into. Next time we touch base, the first car of the Cyclone in Coney Island.
I carteinly will think of you whenever I ride the Sea Beach line. I have gone to Coney Island twice since we met and both times I rode on the "Cyclone". It is still the best roller coaster I've ridden on.
I've also been to Philadelphia and I rode on their subway. I certainly like the new Adtranz M-4 cars that are used on the Market Street line in Philadelphia. They're fast, quiet and clean. The best thing of all are the sit down railfan windows. The only New York City subway cars that had sit down railfan windows were the BMT "Bluebirds". One last thing. There is hardly any scratchitti on the Philadelphia subway cars.
BMTJeff
Well, to be honest, I would be more inclined to designate September 23 as A Train Day because it was on that date in 1967 that my allegiance to the A was forever forged. I didn't grasp the significance when I rode on it for the first time on July 20 of that year, although it may have been the very train I was on when I noticed for the first time we were blowing past a local station. I do remember hollering, "We're skipping this stop!" to my mother above the roar of the train.
July 21 is a real red-letter date in my life, as that was the date of my first subway ride ever in 1965.
You pick the day Stevereno and I will proclaim in "A" Train day. Or you can proclaim it.
I'll leave it up to you. July 20, September 10 (when the A made its debut in 1932), September 23, take your pick.
Juky 21 to me will be "First Subway Ride Day".
Considering all the other (mostly unpleasant) things associated with today's date, it's good to remember the day for something positive.
As most of us know, today is the anniversary of the mass killings at Waco in 1993 and Oklahoma City in 1995, as well as "Holocaust Remembrance Day" in Israel. And on a less somber note, it is the anniversary of the opening battles of the American Revolution at Lexington and Concord, Mass.
So by all means, let's have something fun to celebrate too. "Sea Beach Day" it is!
As for July 20th, there is already a "positive" event to celebrate then - can you say "Apollo 11"? But I always remember the trains I rode that day (7/20/1969) too - I took the Third Ave. El from Fordham Rd. to 149th St., changed for the #5, and wound up in Central Park, where I watched the "one small step for (a) man, one giant leap for mankind" on the giant-screen TVs that were set up in the Sheep Meadow.
I deliberately rode the "old fashioned" El to provide maximum contrast to the "space age" trip I would be watching.
But hey, there's nothing wrong with celebrating the Brighton Line either.
Dyre Dan: If I remember I will proclaim July 20th as Dyre Line #5 Day and designate September 23 as "A" Train day in honor of Steve8AVEXP. Hey, maybe we did start something positive here, and, yes, I was aware of some of those other events happening on this date, so it is nice to have something positive to cheer about. I'm also aware that my riding the Sea Beach in 1947 came long before Waco and Oklahoma City. As for the Holocaust, maybe that is why I'm so pro-Israeli. It must not and will not happen again.
I will get back with Brighton Line Day. I have to do some research.I would like to use the day it first opened with Steam Trains back in the 19th Century.
August 1 would be a good candidate, IIRC this was the date of its connection, in 1920, to the Broadway subway. Another possibility would be the anniversary, if known, of the 4-tracking and raising and lowering carried out by the BRT. Or the introduction of the Triplex or Brightliners on it, probably there are other possibilities, too. But the Dyre Av. line is nice, too, why not celebrate it on its connection and opening date to the Lex. Av. subway via WPR?
Well, September 9 can be designated as "R-32 Day". It was on that date in 1964 that those jackrabbits made their splashy debut on a demonstrator run from Mott Haven to Grand Central.
September 10 can be "IND day". The 8th Ave. line opened on that date in 1932.
June 22 can be "BMT standard Day". The 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines opened on that date in 1915 and unveiled those indestructible bulldozers.
The Triplexes first appeared in 1925; not sure of the date. Perhaps July 23 could be "Triplex Day", commemorating the final day of service for those gentle behemoths in 1965 before they were needlessly sent to premature slaughter.
I love August 1. It is the date of my wedding anniversary. This August, 31 years with the same girl.
Good for you!
My fourth wedding aniversary comes on June 22.
:-) Andrew
Mister K: Do you know how signicant your anniversary is? Do you have any clue? In case you don;t know, June 22 is the day of the Sea Beach running for the first time. June 22, 1915 to be exact. You've got a great day there. Let me know if you knew the significance of your big day.
Everyone on SubTalk should proclaim April 19th as #4 Sea Beach Fred day. Back on this very day in 1947 which happened to have fallen on a Saturday was the first time #4 Sea Beach Fred rode on the Sea Beach Line to Coney Island. We should set aside this day April 19th in his honor on SubTalk.
BMTJeff
Nah
I disagree. I think we should proclaim April 19th as #4 sea Beach Fred day on SubTalk.
BMTJeff
I took the R to Prince St. Station to transfer to F and looking at the neighbourhood map, it looks like the station is even closer to Houston St line than the 6's.
I wonder why did they never build a transfer there, especially with this M/B in and out it would offer a better options for those Brooklynites going to 6th Ave stations below 34th.
Arti
I'm under the impression that, in fact, there is a passageway for transit workers from the Broadway/Lafayette platform level up to the Broadway tracks--it's behind the locked door at the western end of the platform. At least that's what I overheard a track worker there say several years ago. Any corroboration out there?
Pretty sure I saw stairs there, but couldn't tell how far they go.
Of course they may have taken the stairs out of there to make more storage space for the cleaning equipment.
Better yet, why didn't they build a passageway connecting Grand and Canal?
That would be an awfully long passageway!
No, it wouldn't.
Yes it would. Ever been outside around there? Those stations are a number of blocks apart.
Two medium sized blocks south, Grand, Hester Canal, then one short block west to Bowery. Not to mention that I'm sure the Grand Street station probably extends south to Hester anyway.
Actually, this could have been done easily now that you mention it. There's still some trackways from the north side of the bridge that could be used part of the way to connect these 2 stations.
Yes, but there goes 2nd Ave!
Why? The tunnel he mentioned (north side to Canal Street) has nothing to do with Second Avenue.
Which tunnel is this? I know the two currently used tracks on Grand were meant to be the express tracks compared to the local tracks behind the walls which would feed from 2nd Ave. The only other unused tunnel in the area I know are the two stubs from Nassau St loop to the bridge. I would've thought 2nd Ave, since those are the closest tracks but I guess I'm wrong.
Grand would be easier to connect with the Bowery on the J/M/Z, and that would still require about as long a passageway as the G at Court Square.
Bowery is only one short block west of Chrystie, and the Grand Street station extends almost to Delancey Street.
Which means once you add the block north and the block west to the connection, it would be longer than the connection between the 7 and the B/D/F/Q at 42nd and Sixth but shorter than the connection between the A/C/E and the 1/2/3/7/9/N/R/S at Port Authority/Times Square.
Actually, I would prefer they built that transfer, especially if the "short" repair period for the Sixth Ave. tracks on the Manny B end up lasting as long as the work on the Broadway tracks did. It would solve most of the yelling about Grand Street being "abandoned" because you could just take the M to Bowery and transfer to the Sixth Ave. line from there.
It's just that unless some big company built an office building between Bowery and Chrystie at Delancey that the MTA could ram a transfer passageway through, they're not going to do it on their own.
Actually, you can see the steelwork for the Chrystie St. line just a few yards beyond the Bowery station. (It's the current entrance that is a block west.)
Is there enough room to connect the northbound Grand Street platform to the Bowery station (or I suppose they could just run the connection from the mezzanine levels, though that would require a longer passageway)?
If it's that short a distance, then given the DOT's ongoing problem with the Manny B, connecting the two stations might be cost-effective in the long run, if the city's actually looking at a decade-long detour like with the Broadway line instead of the couple of years closing they're talking about.
I'd build this transfer anyway. When the north side reopens, it'd relieve some of the pressure off the F train with x-ferring passangers at Essex/Delancy.
Go to the station and look to the neighbourhood map, it sure gives you the details.
Arti
>>> I wonder why did they never build a transfer there <<<
It is pretty simple if you look back to 1948 when the inter-divisional free transfer points were initiated. Prior to 1948, there were no free transfers, and where stations were close enough to have passage ways between them there were turnstiles between them. These places were where the three divisions (then separate companies) thought there would be enough transfers to make it worth the expense of connecting the stations.
With only a few exceptions such as 74th Street on the Flushing line where paper transfers were used, the free transfers were initiated only in the stations already connected.
Tom
What about the 6 right next door?
Arti
>>> I wonder why did they never build a transfer there <<<
It is pretty simple if you look back to 1948 when the inter-divisional free transfer points were initiated. Prior to 1948, there were no free transfers, and where stations were close enough to have passage ways between them there were turnstiles between them. These places were where the three divisions (then separate companies) thought there would be enough transfers to make it worth the expense of connecting the stations.
With only a few exceptions such as 74th Street on the Flushing line where paper transfers were used, the free transfers were initiated only in the stations already connected.
Tom
If you have read the itinerary for our trip, you will have noticed we have one, small segment on the red line. So, what are the chances they do single tracking, on the segment we ride, when we ride it?
Get the message?
That's right. Single tracking on the red line between Union Station and Silver Spring. I imagine trains will use a crossover north of Union Station and will be changing back right before Silver Spring. We get off at Fort Totten. Trains are running every 15-20 minutes so we have increased intervals. This is our first train of the journey. So now, as if I hadn't stressed trying to arrive at Gate G early if you aren't coming on train 79, I really need to. So that the day is enjoyable and so that we cover as much of the system as possible, please make sure you arrive on time (preferably before 9:45).
If you are coming but haven't told me, e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com ASAP!!! Please include in your e-mail how you plan on arriving and if you will have a cell phone, the number.
The current weather for Saturday is Partly cloudy. Highs in the mid 70s and lows in the mid 50s.
Click here for more info about the trip.
Oren
Hey Oren,
When you click on the link you provided, a Yahoo!! error message pops up, even if you cut-and-paste the URL.
http://www.geocities.com/orenstransitpage/subtalkdc.htm
Sorry about that!
Oren
Perhaps they appeared overnight. I first noticed them yesterday when alighting a train at Grosvenor (to wait for another train to continue my trip to Twinbrook). The train, a mixed-consist stringing of 1000-, 2000-, and 3000-series cars, had ugly shiny-metallic stickers on the front (leading-edge) doors of each carset commemorating Metro's 25th. The only one I got to inspect closely was on a 1000-series car; it had a small legend to the effect that "this car is one of the original Rohr Metro cars."
I saw them again on the Red Line today, in the morning while riding from Friendship to Gallery Pl., and in the afternoon while riding from Fort Totten to Silver Spring and, later, from Shady Grove to Friendship.
I didn't see them on the Green or Blue lines that I also rode today.
Thus the trashing of the cars' simple lines continues. I thought it had reached a head with the ugly, superfluous "stop" signs on intercar doors and and chains between cars, but no . . .
C
If you go to the intersection of 49th and Market Streets in West
Philadelphia, you will see a mural painted on the side of a house
on the northwest corner, depicting the new single-column Market St.
el structure. From what the mural shows, the columns appear to be
steel instead of concrete, which I thought the entire new el
structure was going to be constructed of. Is it likely that they
may have redesigned the new Market St. el to make it retain some of
its classic el structure appearance? Also, does anyone know when and
where they are going to start heavy construction on the el structure
itself? I've already noticed that the southeast corners of 52nd,
60th, and 63rd Streets have been cleared for what I assume will be
the station buildings/entrances, similar to the ones on the Frankford
El. Anyway, as far as the mural at 49th and Market, it is a great
painting, except for 2 things...the el appears to be single track,
and the train looks like it's about ready to fall off the structure!!
Yeah, I pass that mural every day. It was dedicated April 5th although it went up last fall, I believe.
They're already putting up the new ATC building at 63rd Street and will soon begin at 52nd. The new structure will look nothing like the current structure. The columns will be single "T" bent steel columns running down the middle of the street. The guideway will be concrete.
Much like another person who made the same comment at a SEPTA Community Meeting about the project, the guideway will not look quite so much as it does on the mural, that the train could fall of the tracks or anything. That is, as one SEPTA rep put it "artistic license".
The line will, of course, be double tracked. The actual build-up/tear-down phase will begin within next year, according to scheduling and it will start from Millbourne, I believe.
You said they are putting up the new ATC building at 63rd Street.
Could you tell me what ATC stands for? I may sound dumb by asking
this, but someone else told me not too long ago that they are getting
ready to construct the ATC buildings, and I just couldn't figure out
what that meant.
I think he meant FTC as in Frankford Transportation Centre.
ATC is Automatic Train Control, otherwise known as ATO for Automatic Train Operation.
-Robert King
ATC does stand for (A)utomatic (T)rain (C)ontrol, but SEPTA's definition and PATCO's are completely different. SEPTA's ATC just means cab signals, while PATCO's mean completely automatic (hands-free operation), so SEPTA is basically building a control tower for the cab signals.
First of all ATC, ATS and ATO all have strict definitions set by the FRA. All ATC is ATS and all ATO is ATC.
Secondly, SEPTA just built an integrated dispatching centre and I have no clue what this new ATC building at 63rd St. is. I think it has something to do with a new EL structure.
The new ATC building is for the new El structure and will be integrated into the headhouse for the station when it is completed. Automatic Train Control systems will be installed on the line for the next several weekends resulting in weeked shutdowns through May.
It's a shame to see the old signal go. Good thing I got my ass in gear last summer and diagramed the whole line. There are a few errors in my diagrams so I'd best correct them least they become part of the historical record.
Today was Holocaust Rememberance Day - in Hebrew, Yom HaShoah.
The victims - six million Jews and five million others (Gypsies, gay people, the mentally and physically disabled, and many others not listed), were transported to concentration camps by train. The cars used were cattle cars. One of these cars is on permanent exhibit at the U.S. Holocaust Museum in DC, and I once had the chilling experience of walking through it.
The point of this post is to make note of the day, and to express the following thought: How ironic it is that items designed for society's betterment, in this case trains, can be used so destructively.
It is a chilling look into the German bureaucratic mindset that the government that was able to murder millions of people as though they were operating an efficient business also purchased third-class tickets on the Deutsche Reischbahn to transport its victims to their final destination.
>>...as though they were operating an efficient business...<<
They were operating a buisness. Clothes, Glasses, jewelery, gold teeth and any other salvagable items were taken from the victims of the death camps and redistributed. Its sickening. They profited from the deaths of others.
It is a chilling look into the German bureaucratic mindset that the government that was able to murder millions of people as though they were operating an efficient business also purchased third-class tickets on the Deutsche Reischbahn to transport its victims to their final destination.
I'd never heard that before. Were the tickets used to make it look as if the people were being sent on "ordinary" journeys? Presumably special military trains could have been used.
I don't know whether the victims actually carried the tickets. It wasn't a ruse. The German Railways expected to be paid to carry the government's "passengers." A third-class ticket was roughly the equivalent of an excursion fare in the U.S.
>>> Presumably special military trains could have been used. <<<
No, military trains were not used. The Wehrmact did not want to be associated with those trains. And the "Jewish Transport" trains had priority over military trains, even those hauling military supplies to the Eastern front. The importance given to the program can be seen from the following excerpt from the confession of Adolph Eichman.
"In every European country under our jurisdiction it was the job of the Jewish Adviser (the representative of my office) to work through local officials until he had attained our goal: a roundup of the Jews and their delivery to the transports. I had Captain Richter sitting in Bucharest, Captain Wisliceny in Pressburg [Bratislava], Dannecker in Paris, etc. All these Jewish Advisers enjoyed the greatest respect, for each of them was really the long arm of Himmler himself. Although I myself had a relatively low rank, I was the only department head in the Gestapo with my own representatives in foreign countries. If one of my specialists got in trouble with a local commander, I would then have my bureau chief, General Müller, give the necessary orders. Müller was more feared than Reichsführer Himmler."
Tom
USSR never bothered, it was a free ride!
Arti
free ride?
When was that? i remember riding the moscow subway only once for free in 1991 when the fares were sponsored by an electronics firm by the name of MMM which went out of buisness, also I rode the subway for free in Tashkent, Uzbekistan once also, on the opening day of a new line, just once, also like in 1990 i dont remember now.
Shut up!
Arti
Is 7 your age, your IQ, or both? You've spouted so much bullcrap on this site that, even if you did decide to tell the truth for once, we'd never know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lest we forget, the Soviets deported scores of innocent people to Siberia (my father's relatives included, not to mention his parents) in cattle cars. Stalin wasn't exactly an angel, either.
[Stalin wasn't exactly an angel, either]
That's my point.
Arti
My own relatives were deported by Stalin to Kazakhstan.
Did anyone see the History Channel's show on "The Ghost Train"? It was the story of a Belgian train crew who managed, by feigning incompetence, to delay a trainload of political prisoners, POWs, and resistance fighters form being shipped to Germany long enough for Allied forces to rescue them. I don't remember the details, but it was an interesting story. It's a shame more train crews couldn't have acted so bravely.
Mark
"as though they were operating an efficient business"
Quite often, people who are claiming about government's waste and inefficiency say "Government/the trains/the airports should be run as an efficient business."
I really enjoy seeing something efficiently run. I think that being in an efficiently-run organization is a morale booster.
But seeing Schindler's List, I saw just how efficient the Final Solution actually was at its intended goal. All of the infrastructure that had been built up was used effectively for 1) war, 2) exterminating unwanted human beings.
So there are at least some cases where efficiency is NOT a good thing. [I'll have to remember that the next time I think "efficiency is universally good]
oday was Holocaust Rememberance Day - in Hebrew, Yom HaShoah.
The victims - six million Jews and five million others (Gypsies, gay people, the mentally and physically disabled, and many
others not listed), were transported to concentration camps by train. The cars used were cattle cars. One of these cars is on
permanent exhibit at the U.S. Holocaust Museum in DC, and I once had the chilling experience of walking through it.
Mark: It must have been most chilling indeed. Contrary to what a number of politicians would have us believe, the Holocaust will remain an incredibly important reminder of what hate is and always will be about. You also bring up the eminently important point (that some would have us conveneniently overlook) that Jews were not the only "undesirable" group under the Nazi regime.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I know the non-Jewish victims are not always mentioned, and think they should be. However, I don't think anyone wants to "overlook" them.
Six million represented two-thirds of the Jews in Europe and one-third of all the Jews in the world at the time. When I visited Yad Vashem (the Holcaust center in Israel), our guide said that had the Holocaust not occurred, there would be thirty million Jews in the world today, instead of the present thirteen million.
>>>Six million represented two-thirds of the Jews in Europe and one-third of all the Jews in the world at the time. When I
visited Yad Vashem (the Holcaust center in Israel), our guide said that had the Holocaust not occurred, there would be thirty
million Jews in the world today, instead of the present thirteen million.
Mark: Yes, the sheer magnitude involved was indeed striking. And I can definitely believe that 30 million Jewish people would be alive today if the Holocaust did not occur.
What I did not spell out earlier (but probably should have) was that some people (not on this site, but in general) seem to consider the Holocaust to have been "merely" a Jewish problem - not only in the sense that non-Jewish victims tend to be forgotten, but also in the sense that some consider it to be a danger that can only effect Jewish people so that the rest of humanity not need care about it, or oppose its sheer inhumanity. A myth that costed the lives of millions.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Be aware of the fact that there are those out there who still think that Hitler's final solution was correct! Some have even gone as far as committing really horrendous crimes, from the bombing of a church in Burmingham, Alabama in which four little girls were killed during the civil rights era to the mass murder committed by McVeigh only a few years ago. Remember too that that nut McVeigh has SUPPORTERS!
Keep your eyes and ears open, guys, for you do not know what is next.
Be aware of the fact that there are those out there who still think that Hitler's final solution was correct! Some have even gone
as far as committing really horrendous crimes, from the bombing of a church in Burmingham, Alabama in which four little
girls were killed during the civil rights era to the mass murder committed by McVeigh only a few years ago. Remember too
that that nut McVeigh has SUPPORTERS!
Keep your eyes and ears open, guys, for you do not know what is next.
JailhouseDoc: Yes, it is sometimes simply frightful that such people have some supporters today and in this country. Overall, however, I believe that the Nazi way is (fortunately) ultimately doomed to failure.
-cordially,
turnstiles
"the mass murder committed by McVeigh only a few years ago"... wasn't committed by McVeigh at all. The ANFO bomb which he set off was just not capable of that kind of destruction.
See
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22518, also http://www.sightings.com/general10/30.htm.
Don't be misled by ad hominem attacks that characterize anyone who disagrees with the offical story as a "right-wing nut" or some such name. Look at the facts objectively. That means the facts presented by all sides. The official story doesn't hold up.
Then let's not forget from where the ideas came from. Would be interesting to remind that the Nazi government was very eager to learn from Soviet "labour" camps while they were in good terms.
The ethnic/religious cleansing, to my good knowledge involving jewish people, was carried on in USSR well before and after the Holocaust but unfortunately nobody has paid much attention.
Arti
When I was In Washington D.C. I went to the u.s. holocaust museum. I seen the train car. What a worst and sad time in history.
Appearing live on WCBS Newsradio-880's Ask the Governor show a half hour ago, NY Governor George Pataki revealed that NY will fund MNRR to purchase 65 new rail cars for use on the Pascack Valley and Port Jervis lines. These will go towards increasing service up to 30% on these lines when the Secaucus Transfer is completed, and also provide the first ever express service from Rockland County to NYC.
Full details tomorrow in the official announcement from the Governor.
Good news! There's no way I'm going to miss railfanning on that train!
:) Andrew
It's impossible to have an express from Rockland to NYC. I think you mean Hoboken.
Not really, not if they build a track connection between the Main/Bergen/Pascack lines and the Northeast Corridor, which would then defeat the whole purpose of the Secaucus Transfer, but hey!
BTW - Anybody else think the Secaucus Transfer station should be called Manhattan Transfer?
I came across this article on the Istanbul Transportation Company's website and thought it might be interesting. The site is entirely in Shockwave Flash, unfortunately, so I can't post the exact url. If you speak Turkish (ha ha), or want to look at pictures, the link is here, then click on "TARIHÇE" for the history article. I'm translating and paraphrasing here, so I guess it's not copyright infringement.
"On 30 August 1869, a need was recognized for better transit of people and goods within the city, and the "Sublime Porte Tramway Company" was given a 40 year lease to build 4 rail lines in the city's streets, to be pulled by horses. The company decided to open 4 lines:
1. Azapkapisi to Ortaköy
2. Eminönü [the Imperial Palace] to Aksaray
3. Aksaray to Yedikule
4. Aksaray to Topkapi
The first two were opened in 1872, the third in 1873, and the fourth in 1874. Soon thereafter, lines were added Galata-Sisli, Galata-Kurtulus, Eminonu-Eyup [the Orthodox "Vatican"], among many others which followed. Around this time (1874) the world's 3rd underground metro, the Tünel between Galata and Beyoglu entered service, which coninues today.
In 1911 the Sublime Porte Transit Company and the Ottoman State agreed to electrify the lines. The electric age began in 1914 on the European Side, and in 1928 on the Anatolian Side [Istanbul sits on 2 continents].
Because of the growth of the city, the network expanded to 130km by 1958 within the city limits. But the leaders of the time, rather than expanding and improving the system to find a solution, instead removed extant lines and built expressways across the city. Thus began the Traffic Chaos which is today Istanbul. But the mistake was realized and work started to bring about the metro of today.
In 1985 work was begun by the Municipality of Greater Istanbul, and in 1988 Istanbul Transportation, Inc. was created to run the new Light Metro and Tramvay. The company accelerated the efforts which have begun to form a rail network in Istanbul."
Everyone here is doubting that the G/R/V can all run in harmony on Queens Plaza. However, with about 25 more workers, the TA can run it efficiently.
The main problem is the turn at Continental. During rush hours, it would be difficult to turn any trains at Continental. But, I have a plan.
10 platform conductors should be on hand from 5:30am-11:30pm (or roughly the time they begin taking trains out of service). When a terminating train comes in, the conductors should get everyone off the train (10 conductors, 1 per car [on R-46's this leaves 2 conductors 'roaming' making sure all is okay. However, on a full 10 car train, all would be occupied.]. This should speed things up). It should take no more than a minute to clear a train. This will prevent delays.
The R should run to 179th all times (xcept nites). The G can't do this, it isn't frequent or long enough. The F now runs express to 179th, And the E will keep it's present routing.
The V should be 6 cars. It should terminate at 71st all times (xcept nites).
The G should be 4 cars (R68's). It should go to 71st Rush hours and middays, and to Court Sq. all other times.
This plan, if implemented correctly, should allow all 3 lines to run on the same tracks.
Agreed, except that there is no reason ever to have to terminate the G at Court Square. In the off-hours, why is it impossible to turn the G around after Queens Plaza?
The only way for G trains to turn around is to use the D5 track (middle track north of Queens Plaza). In order for G trains to run from the D2 (local) track to the D5 track, they have to cross the D4 (express) track. Also, in order for southbound G trains to move from D5 to D1, they need to cross D3. Also keep in mind that E trains will be running local along the Queens line during the late nights, which means NB E trains need to use the same crossover north of QP to get to the D2 track. And, the only access from D1 to D3 is south of QP. Look at the track map of the area (It's a bit dated, but accurately shows the interlocking immediately north of QP between the station and where D5 starts).
On weekends, it would also affect R service, whose tracks feed directly into the Queens Line local tracks, which the G needs to use to enter QP.
Sounds great--would be better if we could keep Hippos off of the QB, but whatever as long as we keep the G.
Problem: Why terminate the G at Court Sq? During off-hours the traffic at Queens Plaza should be light enough so that the G train would be able to turn using D5; as well you could lay up a couple of trains if necessary.
One more related question: Terminating trains at Queens Plaza is not done usually because why? Is it that the MTA is worried about delays a la Continental?
Dan
Because then people would ask why cant the G run to QP at all times/
This plan, if implemented, would have commuters wishing that they had their old G/R back.
Four car G's and six car V's? At rush hour? Does overcrowding mean anything to you? What's the point of having three services if you can't fit on two of them? Also overcrowded trains equal additional dwell time, which equals congestion and delays.
Ten Platform C/R's and the R to 179th St. If you were a Superintendent, you'd be immediately demoted for attempting to destroy the financial "numbers". You say 25 more workers huh? So how many additional crews would you need to have R service operate to 179 St? Say you'd need six additional crews plus two additional switchmen at 179 St. At the average salary of a C/R and a T/O, the labor costs alone would come to around $2.1 million annually. Why don't you just torch the books while you're at it.
And having the F run express in Jamaica, great. You'd appease the Greenpoint customers, 75% of whom don't go past Queens Plaza, and you'd piss off the people at 169/Sutphin/Van Wyck/75 Av who use the service daily. WHAT are you going to say to them?
I'm sure that you have some great ideas. But my friend, this certainly ain't one of them.
G should not exceed Continetal, R or V should go to 179th, no matter how many cars, and the E should run local if the F runs express.
I agree the G should not Exceed Continental, but you might be able to terminate the G a Parsons/Archer with the E, just kidding. Court Sq. is fine. The V should terminate at 179th Street all time. F runs the hillside express to and from 179th Street rush hours. E runs hillside and Queens Blvd Express all times to and from parson/Archer.
That should solve the problems. As far as people being upset because they don't have a one seat ride, transfer either at Parson's Blvd, Union Turnpike or 71st Continental. They have three chances to get an express.
Frank D
"I agree the G should not Exceed Continental, but you might be able to terminate the G a Parsons/Archer with the E, just kidding. Court Sq. is fine. The V should terminate at 179th Street all time. F runs the hillside express to and from 179th Street rush hours. E runs hillside and Queens Blvd Express all times to and from parson/Archer.
That should solve the problems. As far as people being upset because they don't have a one seat ride, transfer either at Parson's Blvd, Union Turnpike or 71st Continental. They have three chances to get an express.
Frank D "
And don't forget the R Broadway Line to 179th Street as well.
N Broadway Line
If you have the R go to 179th St all times with the V, then you can have the F run express all times from 179th Street, Hillside Express and Queens Blvd Express. Then you can terminate the G at 71 Continental Ave running 4 cars.
Frank D
Why not run the F exp from 179, with the R going local, and the V and E to jamaica, with the G to 71st?
I haven't rode the G much over the years, but I took it last friday, and what would have taken maybe 45 to an hour via manhattan or the b61 bus was perhaps a half hour ride at the most. It'd be a shame to drop it at court sq. If I recall right it's a fairly long walk at that transfer as well.
When is that 7 train connection to the e/f/g court sq. transfer set to open? have they started working on it? If it were in place, court sq. might actually be somewhat decent (then again, I don't ride it every day so I don't know...)
-Joe
Excellent solution!!!!!!!
I would flop the V and R service. Have the V go to 179th St. Why because they already tried the R to 179th Street, and folks didn't like it. So here is the new service.
E: to World Trade Center , Hillside Exp, Queens Blvd Exp, 8th Ave Local (All Times)
F: to Coney Island Hillside Exp, Queens Blvd Exp, 6th Ave Local, Brooklyn Express (All Times) Rush Hours Culver Exp.
V: to Church Ave, Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Local, 6 Ave Local, Brooklyn Local (All Times). Rush Hours (Culver Local to Kings Hwy)
R: to 95th Street, Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Local, Broadway Local, Brooklyn Local. (All Times)
G: to Church Ave Queens Blvd Local, Brooklyn Local (All Times)
Just reverse the Terminals for the opposite direction.
Frank D
With the (E), you obviously don't mean Hillside Express, but then I don't know what to call that. Van Wyck Express? Archer Express?
It might make sense to run it as a local (ie stopping at Briarwood-Van Wyck and 75th Ave) if the (F) runs express.
:-) Andrew
Archer, Hillside... :) Yeah, but if you stop it a 75th Ave, then you have 3 trains running on the Hillside local Tracks before 71st Continental Ave. As I prpose will have the E & F running express, while the V & R runs the local. People can switch at Union Turnpike or 71 Continental to get the E or F.
Frank D
Thank YOU FRANK!
N Broadway Line
"With the (E), you obviously don't mean Hillside Express, but then I don't know what to call that. Van Wyck Express? Archer Express?
It might make sense to run it as a local (ie stopping at Briarwood-Van Wyck and 75th Ave) if the (F) runs express.
:-) Andrew"
And cause more delays? Why don't you keep it the way it is since you really want the E to serve those stations!!!! With the R and V going to 179th Street, I think that is sufficient enough service.
N Broadway Line
>>Why because they already tried the R to 179th Street, and folks didn't like it<<
They wouldn't like the V either, because of the through local from 169th.
And, Run the V into Brooklyn Rush hours, Middays and evenings. Weekends, stop it at 2nd av.
"They wouldn't like the V either, because of the through local from 169th. "
If passengers using the 169th Street station don't like the two local services, they can walk to the 179th Street Station for express service. Or they should move where they are close to an express stop. Otherwise, they should just deal with the two local services that was design to serve that station.
N Broadway Line
"And, Run the V into Brooklyn Rush hours, Middays and evenings. Weekends, stop it at 2nd av."
Not enough cars, especially if now you're running both the R and V past Continental. Also, the V will be part time, weekdays only. Off hours it doesn't run at all.
We can only have one of the following and even that will be difficult:
1) V to 179
2) R to 179
3) G to Continental or to Q.P offpeak
4) V to Church or K.Hwy
That's my order of preference as well.
My order of preference:
1) G to Continental
2) V to 179
3) R to 179
4) V to Church or Kings Hwy
#4 is the hardest b/c it requires the most cars, #3 and #2 can probably be employed as the easiest, but not the most important. The F handles the entire Culver line pretty well, I don't see any reason it can't handle Hillside alone. Leave the F alone on Hillside until population and crowding shows it needs help. What does a Hillside Exp save? At avg 45 sec a stop for stopping and starting/slowing, 3 minutes at the most. Not only that, but now it's express west of Continental. I don't believe that except for us railfans, anybody thinks day and night about getting their Hillside exp back to save 3 min. Any additional cars should go to the G first, since they're a very vocal group and show good points with their studies {ie population increase on Crosstown, etc}, then you go on to appease others.
"I would flop the V and R service. Have the V go to 179th St. Why because they already tried the R to 179th Street, and folks didn't like it. So here is the new service. "
PUT THEM BOTH UP THERE!
N Broadway Line
>>PUT THEM BOTH UP THERE!<<
That's too much. 179th does not need 3 trains going there. Not now, Not ever. (Unless sometime from now there is a huge increase in service at these stops)
What are you talking about???? I keep hearing that they wasn't enough local service. SOLUTION! PUT THE R AND V UP THERE! THAT WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM!!!
N Broadway LINE
>>What are you talking about???? I keep hearing that they wasn't enough local service. SOLUTION! PUT THE R AND V UP THERE! THAT WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM!!!<<
N Broadway LINE
Right now, the F serves all them stations by itself. When a local is routed up there (if a local is routed up there..) the F serves about 1/2 of the stations. I think that on local and one express is enough.
Yeah. But that's what they had before and it didn't work. Plus, your also talking about the possible delay that will be caused turning trains at 71st Street.
N Broadway Line
Are you sure the V is enough for the east QB local stops? Maybe run the E Hillside local for the length it is on there.
I said add the R to 179th Street. And in another post, I said keep the E on the express stops. The service will go as follows:
E - (via 53rd Street) Express from Queens Plaza to Jamaica Van Wyck Station.
F - (via 63rd Street) Express from 21st Street to 179th Street Station.
G - (Brooklyn) Local from Queens Plaza to 71st Street Station.
R - (via 60th Street) Local from Queens Plaza to 179th Street Station
V - (via 53rd Street) Local from Queens Plaza to 179th Street Station
N Broadway Line
I don't know about that plan. Then you'd have three trains relaying at 179th. That would cause quite a bottleneck.
I don't understand all the whining about running another local on QB. Just run it all the way to 179 St and get on with life.
179 St can certainly handle a local and an express terminating there - it did for decades. 71 Av can deal with 2 locals terminating and the third just continuing from there. The E & F stay on the express track, the local to 179 just stays on the local track all the way out. The only switching needed is for the terminating trains to relay. Unless the track maps on here of 71 Av are inaccurate, relaying the locals shouldn't cause any interference with the express tracks. Like 179 St, Continental has had 2 locals terminating there for decades so why would there be "new" problems with getting passengers off the OOS trains?
So, just what is the problem?
I think the biggest problem is the lack of rolling stock needed for such an increase in service.
:-) Andrew
Increase... We are talking abot a petty 7 sations for the locals from 71 Continental Ave. I proposed just just terminating the G at 71 Continental. Terminating the R at Parsons/Archer and terminating the V at 179th St. Or if you want just flop the V and R terminals. This should make everyone happy again. Express service back on the Hillside Express as it belongs.
Frank D
I don't know if the R/V would work at Jamaica Center. I heard before that the switching limits the amount of E trains serving that station. Therefore, it would defeat the purpose of having the E out there. Nevertheless, the only solution for the R/V is to put it at 179th Street with the F express. And the G at 71st Street.
N Broadway Line
What about the delays that will be caused at 71st Street if you have two trains terminating there and one line going to 179th Street? 179th Street is much better because you have a lot more track compacity than 71street. Plus, the one line by itself didn't do the job.
N Broadway Line
This is true. That's why I said that the V should run express with the E and the F. Leave the R and G alone, and let the F and V run to 179th Street.
I think the F should run express from 21st Street to 179th Street, and the V should run express from Queens Plaza to Continental Avenue then local to 179th. This way, you have two trains relaying at Continental and two trains relaying at 179th. No one terminal has an overflux of trains causing too much of a backup.
I was told that there would be too much traffic on the express; that the Queens Blvd. Exp. can't hold that much. I disagree. I think that with adjusted headways on the E and the F lines, the V would have no problem fitting in. After all, look at the 6th Avenue Line where you have the B, the D, and the Q running on the express track.
With some fine tuning, I believe my idea could work. I'm still not convinced that it's a bad plan.
30 trains per hour is current capacity, which is how many E's and F's there are. At one time it was 36, but that was before reforms with keying by signals, and response times to signals turning green. No way can 39 trains be handled today on any track. There are no more B-D-Q than there are E-F. There are only anout 7 or 8 B's an hour. there will be 9 V's.
If they will be only 9 V's per hours (I don't know if that is sufficient for local service to 179th Street), how many G's and R's would be doing rush hours?
N Broadway Line
If the G kept going I'd say nobody would take more than 5-6 tph at the most, the R I believe will be around 10 tph?
Either 9 or 12 R's, and 6 G's.
I think 9 V's Local to 179th is sufficient if there are also 15 F's.
The 15 F's are envisioned by the TA to do it all without the V.
Weaather the E goes local or not is immaterial. There's only one stop difference.
So the R service is being cut from 14 trains an hour to 12 trains an hour?
Since the R is schedule more than the V, would it make sense to send them up their in opposed to the V?
I just can't see all three lines terminating at 71st Street. As a matter of fact, I can't see 2 lines terminating at 71st Street without delaying the line going to 179th Street.
Yes! They can send the F to 179th Street on the local track as they do now. But for me, it would make sense since you will have three lines traveling along Queens Blvd.
If someone mentions the E being put on the local track again, I'm going to pour a hot bucket of wax on them. All this switching will cause unnecessary delay. Passengers already have to deal with the switch b/t the E/V at 53rd Street and the G/R than V before and After Queens Plaza. And we can not forget the F out of 63rd Street.
Trains switching onto the tracks causes delays. And F train crossing in front of the E causes delays not only for the E, but The V too. The V crossing in front of the R causes delays for the G and R. And the R switching in front of the G causes delays for the G.
The less switching, the better.
I guess that's one of the reasons why the IRT system is run so much better. Less switching.
N Broadway Line
>>Since the R is schedule more than the V, would it make sense to send them up their in opposed to the V?<<
YES!!! I tried telling you that before.
>>I just can't see all three lines terminating at 71st Street. As a matter of fact, I can't see 2 lines terminating at 71st Street without delaying the line going to 179th Street.<<
All three lines couldn't be terminated at 71st. You're right about that. However, 2 lines could be sent to 71st easily without slowing down the third to 179th. With the G coming every 10 minutes, plus it being only 4 cars (this idea still disgusts me), turning time will be minimal. So basically, and the V could be worked into that pretty easy.
Only 1 local need be run after 71st. Then have the E run local after that (Yes, I said it) to help out the R. Then, you can run the R to 179th to Jamaica and E to 179th or keep the E where it is and run the R to 179th.
"Only 1 local need be run after 71st. Then have the E run local after that (Yes, I said it) to help out the R. Then, you can run the R to 179th to Jamaica and E to 179th or keep the E where it is and run the R to 179th."
E to 179th Street as well? hmmm. I thought the E goes to Jamaica Center. Why confuse passengers more? E local after 71st Street, I don't like that idea either. Again, if you want to help out the R, the V is the best choice because you don't have to worry about switching.
It looks like your not sure about a R handling the load after 71st Street. But you put your foot in your mouth when you say the V should terminate at 71st with the G. hmmmmmmm.
N Broadway Line
G has shorter relay time than R or V.
179th St has upper and lower level two-four track relays today they run at 25% capacity with the F, so they can relay four trains, certainly three trains will be fine then, especially since they're not at the frequency of the F.
"no matter how many cars, and the E should run local if the F runs express. "
Your crazy. What is the purpose of running the R and V local if the E will be local too. Not only is it unpractical, it will cause more delays throughout the whole system. Besides, The E and F should be express respectfully.
N Broadway Line
"Four car G's and six car V's? At rush hour?"
I can understand the G being 4 cars, because it doesn't serve Manhattan. But to have 6 cars on the V is suicide because of the amount of passengers using the 53rd Street tunnel. One suggestion would be to reduce the amount of cars on the R line from 8 to 6 cars. It's already very underutilized and will free up a lot of cars.
N Broadway Line
The R is more crowded than you think, try taking it through Manhattan at the height of the rush.
>>Four car G's and six car V's? At rush hour? Does overcrowding mean anything to you?<<
Presently, there is an 8 car R and a 6 car G. Way I see it, what I proposed is an imporvement over current local service. The R is still running local.
>>Also overcrowded trains equal additional dwell time, which equals congestion and delays.<<
The trains won't be overcrowded. But fine then, if you say so (you being an operator, i'm certain you know more than me) run the V as 8 cars. (what about the 12 A-A and 1 A-B R46's though?)
>>If you were a Superintendent, you'd be immediately demoted for attempting to destroy the financial "numbers".<<
Never thought that the Superintendants made route changes.
>>So how many additional crews would you need to have R service operate to 179 St? Say you'd need six additional crews plus two additional switchmen at 179 St. At the average salary of a C/R and a T/O, the labor costs alone would come to around $2.1 million annually. Why don't you just torch the books while you're at it.<<
2.1 million dollars is hardly a huge chunk out of the TA's pool of resources. Last year (or was it the year before) they had a surplus in the hundreds of millions. I know there is speculation right now that the bugdet isn't balanced right now. But, 2.1 million isn't a lot for an agency like the TA, who can post a surplus 50 times that in a year.
>>And having the F run express in Jamaica, great. You'd appease the Greenpoint customers, 75% of whom don't go past Queens Plaza,<<
1. this is not for the Greenpoint customers.
2. I'd run the G to Queens Plaza. But it would be better to run it to 71st. (turning issues, plus the ability to do it.)
>>...and you'd piss off the people at 169/Sutphin/Van Wyck/75 Av who use the service daily. WHAT are you going to say to them?<<
Here's what i'd say:
SHUT UP!
They can get off at one stop and transfer to an F train, which if they just missed, will be arriving in 4 minutes. Waiting at a local stop on the G will get me a 10 minute wait, on the C, an 8 minute wait. And, those people shipping off to the Lexington area can take either the F or the E. I get sick of complaining riders. You can't appease everybody. When you try, you kill yourself.
Now then:
If you still don't like that Idea (the 169/Sutphin/Van Wick/75th), then run the E there local and send the R to Parsons Archer. Then you shut up that group of whiners.
>>I'm sure that you have some great ideas. But my friend, this certainly ain't one of them.<<
You're right. It's not a great idea. It's a superb one.
I've been reading all the posts on the G/R/V, and I came up with another idea, albeit one that is less feasible.
Build a loop under 75th. This solves a number of problems.
1. You don't have to worry about relay times now.
2. No need for platform conductors. (happy zman?)
3. safety concerns no longer an issue.
As for service patterns, there are a few which could be implemented.
The G and V should both stop at 71st Continental. After this, it becomes somewhat sketchy.
1st. R to 179th as local, F runs express. I've heard people don't like this because they want a one-seat express ride. So:
2nd. R to parsons Archer. E runs local after 71st. and to 179th. I know everybody says that the E can't make that switch, but it can.
Car assignments:
The E cannot have 11 cars. The only single units are the r68's, and they are in 4 car units right now.
The R should remain 8 cars. If it is cut to 6, then it gets crowded.
There are also not enough R-46's for 6 car R trains. The V should be 8 cars after all, due to the passenger volume traveling through 53rd. st. G should be 4 cars
After the Manhattan Bridge is finished, I propose another idea: W train service from Whitehall to 71st via 63rd tunnel. The train can run local, and now you have a 63rd tunnel local service. Run it rush hours only as a 6 car train. Cut the G to Court Square at that time (for the good of many). The only problem is that the local via the 63rd tunnel is on Broadway, which isn't getting much service as it stands.
Finally, here's another proposal, though this one is really just being thrown out there.
Make a 63rd connection to CPW.
Then, I'd run the following servce patterns:
E-no change
F-returns to 53rd tunnel operates via LIRR ROW after Queens Plaza stopping at LIRR stations:
Woodside
Forest Hills
Kew Gardens
After that, it connects to Queens Plaza line again for the stop at Van Wyck.
G-Church to Queens Plaza
K-71stContinental to WTC Rush hours only. Via 63rd tunnel.
R-to 71st continental via local.
V-Express in queens, via 63rd connector. After 71st, makes local stops to 179th. To Chruch in brooklyn via local
W-Rush hours only. via 63rd tunnel. Whitehall to 71st. via local
Headways: E=4mins, F=5, G=10, K=8, R=7, V=6, W=8
Keep in mind that this idea was merely a light poke at this, not a huge analysis of data or a plan that will be implemented anytime soon.
"Build a loop under 75th."
Got $300 million ?
I reiterate my idea to simply create some sort of passenger dropoff/exit at 75th (from the lower layup area to the existing platform). That way they wouldn't have to empty the train at Continental, and could pull out right away and clear the road. This may require some construction, but not that much. Where they should have built a loop is past Queens Plaza (around where the ramps from 63rd St. are).
"W train service from Whitehall to 71st via 63rd tunnel. The train can run local, and now you have a 63rd tunnel local service."
Why not the Q, make it express, and make the F local, run the Q exp to 179, F lcl to 179. F exp when Q is not running. The W should run to Ditmars with the N, giving 60th St 3 trains.
"Run it rush hours only as a 6 car train."
This all depends if West End riders can live with this, and also, if 4th Ave feels okay with having their only representation on the bridge a 6-car train.
R to Parsons Archer will definitely annoy everybody there, especially those who feel the J/Z is a long ride. The E HAS to go there.
When the "powers that be" initiated the Archer Ave line they also decided to restructure the connecting points for almost all bus lines that radiated out to Southeastern Queens and Nassau. Prior to this the terminals for these lines were at Sutphin/Parsons/169th/179th. Believe me people POURED out of the busses into the subway at this point - anyone that remembered Hillside Ave then will remember the lines of people, and busses loading up passengers. After Archer, these terminals were moved to the ubiquitous "Transit Center" with the misguided hope that some folks " who had been taking the "E/F"would opt for the "J/Z". They didn't! An Express train is necessary through this point, and the "E" looks as if it has been so designated for posterity. Since an extension along the LIRR toward St. Albans/Rosedale isn't going to happen within the lifetime of anyone here (IMHO); and since there is no agreement to have some sort of fare sharing arrangement with the LIRR division so that folks in SE Queens could use their routes at either the same fare (which since most of the pasengers pay a double fare -bus & subway - would be higher than a "normal fare")then it should be a requirement that an Express service be mandated to serve this Transit Center. Now if they want to set up another "Transit Center" along the Hillside Avenue portion - say at the Express stops (Parsons/179) and reroute some of the routes to terminate there and have access to two routes into Manhattan, that might be an idea, and it would take pressure off the "E".
Just a thought, with the "E" being the ONLY express line serving 53rd St, and the "V" being a local all the way; if the crossovers at Roosevelt are still in place (EB Exp to LCL) (WB LCL to EXP)and if the express tracks between the 63rd St cut in and Roosevelt can handle the extra traffic, to entice more riders to use the "V" as a one seat ride, what about having the following service pattern:
"F" 179 Jamaica to C.I. Exp Queens, Lcl other Boros VIA 63rd ST
"V" 179 Jamaica to 2 Av Exp Q. Pla to Roosevelt, Lcl Roosevelt to 179
Lcl Manh VIA 53rd St
"E" Parsons Archer to WTC Queens Exp, Manh Lcl VIA 53rd St
"G" 71st Cont (Mon - Sat 6A to 12M), Court Sq all other times; to Smith-9th Lcl
"R" 71st Cont to 95th St, Lcl, VIA 60th St
As I said just a thought!
Frank
>>>(what about the 12 A-A and 1 A-B R46's though?)<<<
They'll definitely see some kind of service.
Slim longshot possibility: Since the G will need two car units to make up 6 car trains on the R68 equipment, the Franklin Shuttle could get the R46 A-A units and the R68 A-A units could all go to the G. Then again, the G could just run 4 or 8 car trains.
>>>Never thought that the Superintendants made route changes.<<<
Sure they do, but usually just minor ones (i.e. skip stops on the 1/9). Supts. do not make major route changes, but they can suggest them.
>>>2.1 million dollars is hardly a huge chunk out of the TA's pool of resources<<<
I made an error in my calculations. It should actually be $4.2 million ($2.1 m per shift excluding midnights). Remember, that's just for on board crews and station switchmen. That's not including the cost of increased inspections (more mileage on the cars) or platform personnel or any other associated costs.
>>>Here's what i'd say: SHUT UP!.............. I get sick of complaining riders. You can't appease everybody<<<
Well, you do sound like you work for the TA. Lol.
If the only problem at Continental is emptying the trains, why not skip that step, except, of course, when the train is going out of service?
Because it's unsafe for the crews. The rule is there for a reason.
Because it's unsafe for the crews. The rule is there for a reason.
There will be 2 T/O's for quick turn around. The crews will stay in their cabs. They will not venture into the more dangerous passenger compartments. They will be no more nor less safe from the passengers than on on non-layover tracks.
There may or may not be a "reason" for this rule. However, crew safety from an unfortunate passenger is definitely not it.
>>>There may or may not be a "reason" for this rule. However, crew safety from an unfortunate passenger is definitely not it.<<<
How would YOU know?
And what if a "customer" whose intention is to pull a cord to harm/rob one or both of those relay t/o's? Now, the t/o's have to leave the cabs to check for the pulled cord. Or what happens if the train fails to charge in the relay position and passengers are on board? As I said last week, we had a female t/o get a finger broken because some low life robbed her wedding ring while she was relaying a train at Continental. I don't know if you have a wife and kids, but I and many other transit workers do. When I leave for work every day, my family would like to see me come home uninjured. Doesn't your family expect the same of you?
Obviously the risk is redeced. I do not believe it is possible to perfectly check a train out because a crafty vagrant will go right back inside the minute the T/O or C/R's back is turned.
A wacco could try that incident on a E train at 14th Street just as easily.
E at 14th St? Why?
There is no way you can assure complete evacuation of a train at Continental. There will always be a what-if. They can hide under the transverse seats on the platform so no one will see them. Should be walk the train with sniffer dogs ? Put a relief crew on the west end and be done with it.
"They can hide under the transverse seats on the
platform so no one will see them. Should be walk the train with sniffer dogs ? Put a relief crew on the west end and be done with it."
That's SILLY! Why will somebody want to stay in an empty subway car? More likely, it will be a homeless person (or passenger) who fell asleep, which is not an intensional act.
N Broadway Line
True, but I meant to answer this under another thread about intentional entrapment acts when the crew walks thru.
Put a relief crew on the west end and be done with it.
That would seem to solve the problem -- and speed up service to boot (no need to wait for the T/O to walk the length of the train). Am I missing something?
You did. You missed my post #214345.
I saw it. I don't see what difference it makes that the train is relaying. The same risk is there whenever the train is pretty empty, no?
If the train is going to Jamaica Yard, the train must be completely evacuated. SO it can just as easily be completely evacuated if it is going to relay for another trip.
"If the train is going to Jamaica Yard, the train must be completely evacuated. SO it can just as easily be completely evacuated if it is going to relay for another trip. "
"Must Be" is a theoretical term; it doesn't guarantee that they actually are unless we seal the train and at 179th and have a cop and a K9 sniff the train before it goes to the yard.
It cannot be "easily evacuated" because trains are being backed up at Contintental Avenue running at 60% of line capacity by unnecessary search procedures. This does not occur at 179th because that spur is run at 25% of capacity.
You call it "unnecessary search procedeures, but there is a TA rule which says that all trains at relaying terminals must be cleared of passengers. Places like Continental, 179, Smith 9th. This is for the security and protection of passengers and operating personell. I have explained why several times recently. If you don't like the rule, write a letter to the TA at 370 Jay St. concerning this matter. Please include your home address so they can respond!
But my point of the post is that I replied to someone who said that clearing out the train of passengers at the Continental if it is going to be used for another trip was unnecesary.
I had never realized that permitting passengers on trains could be so dangerous to T/O's and C/R's. Clearly placing both operating personnel and passengers in separate locked compartments has not been entirely successful in protecting hard working operating personnel from the great hoard of unwashed masses.
There are only two alternatives to completely eliminate any possible conflict between transit employees and their customers. One could ban passengers from all rail cars at all times or one could ban operating personnel through automation. Both solutions eliminate the need for any operating personnel. I'm sure your family can rest easier knowing that your services would no longer be required and that the only injuries that might befall you would take place at home.
Get real. There are no additional hazards to operating personnel from passengers in a relay operation than in a normal operation. Yes, unforseen incidents can happen that might injure both operating employees and passengers. These risks are sufficiently small so that one accepts them in return for employment or transportation.
There are more hazards to operating personel on a relay move rather than regular operation since there is no way out when you are on a relay in that hole. Being in a locked subway car with the possibility a person with a weapon can be avoided by the trains being cleared out of passengers at Continental. Obviously, you did not take into account what I originally responded to. The TA has a rule that relays must be cleaned out of passengers for good reason. SAFETY FOR PASSENGERS AND EMPLOYEES. And this is a response to few SubTalkers said that in order to move the trains into and out of Continental faster that the trains should not be cleared of passengers. So I ask again: should the TA put their employees at risk in order to get the railroad to move faster? If you say yes, then human life and personal safety is only important to you and not to your fellow man. Automation will not work in NY. Who is going to cut out doors enroute or reset emergency cords?
You are going to come up with a "what-if" don't matter what. There is no way to assure clearing out a train at Continental if someone wants to really stow-away and cause trouble. Continental is no different than an other terminal that relays trains; we are not going to run the system at 50% of capacity for these unnecessary procedures. No profession or means of transportation is completely safe. As for human life, the crowding at Jackson Hts by running too few trains is itself a risk.
You get people off a train by walking by each car and physically checking that no one is on board. Sure someone can reboard behind your back....... You can check that no one is on after the doors are closed, of course someone can jump back on in between cars......You call the TA rule on cleaning out trains "an unnecessary procedure", but the TA does not think the rule is unnecessary otherwise they would rescind the rule. The female t/o's and c/r's wouldn't be too happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the hourly women don't make up the rules, but there are also lots of female TA decision makers who would never rescind that rule so as not to put the other females at risk by some male who may be up to commiting a crime against another woman. The advent of large numbers of females both as hourlies and supervisors has greatly changed how things are done, like it or not! I have told you many times of the female train operator who got her finger broken in the relay position at Continental for her wedding band. And please don't tell me that since it doesn't happen often the rule is unnecessary. As a worker in any profession, including the profession you are in, no one should get injured on the job so that productivity and efficiency can be accomplished....... I think that other SubTalkers are getting a bit bored of both of us sticking to our guns, that you and I are just going around in circles. I would rather have this entire past discussion via E mail, but you have your reason for keeping your address private.
There are more hazards to operating personel on a relay move rather than regular operation since there is no way out when you are on a relay in that hole.
Each of the relay tracks between Continental and 75th have access from both Continental and the the Jamaica Yard. Getting a relief train into positition and evacuating a train that was disabled in these particular relay tracks would be far less difficult than evacuating a rush hour Lex Ave express was derailed between 59th and 86th Streets.
Being in a locked subway car with the possibility a person with a weapon can be avoided by the trains being cleared out of passengers at Continental.
This is a problem whether the train is on a relay track or between stations. It is a function of how many people are on the train and the duration. There are not likely to be any passengers on the relay save for an occasional rail fan or drunk.
The relay will have to take 4 minutes at most. This is 53% the duration between Howard Beach and Broad Channel. How many passengers and operating personnel are injured each day being in sealed trains with these two stations?
You must distinguish between hazards that are unique to a relay as opposed to other transit operations. There is nothing unique about such operations other than their duration sans movement.
The TA has a rule that relays must be cleaned out of passengers for good reason. SAFETY FOR PASSENGERS AND EMPLOYEES.
Every TA rule has that alleged purpose. The IRT used that excuse for discouraging union membership 70-odd years ago. The TA would have to show proximate cause, if they were obliged to defend this rule in court.
And this is a response to few SubTalkers said that in order to move the trains into and out of Continental faster that the trains should not be cleared of passengers...should the TA put their employees at risk in order to get the railroad to move faster? If you say yes, then human life and personal safety is only important to you and not to
your fellow man.
The single greatest safety hazard to passengers is overcrowding in cars and station platforms. There is approximately one incident of serious injury due to doors closing on passengers per month. Failure to follow established procedures excuses aside, the underlying cause for most of these incidents is overcrowding.
The only way to eliminate such overcrowding is to run more trains more frequently. The limit to this approach is the terminal capacity aside from the current car shortage. The terminals must be able to dispose of trains as quickly as they arrive - once every 2 minutes. Clearly, there is not possible, if the TA requires 3 minutes to fumigate each local train, after it arrives at Continental.
Like most decisions there one involves tradeoffs. Trains would operate in almost absolute safety, if they did not move and carried no passengers. Aside from this pathelogical extreme, there are risks associated with every aspect of operations. Are more passengers at risk from overcrowding on the 10 stations west of Continental or will more passengers be placed at risk by the occasional sleeper in a relay for 4 minutes?
Automation will not work in NY. Who is going to cut out doors enroute or reset emergency cords?
Whether or not automation is implemented and to what extent in any situation is more a function of cost rather than capability. Additional capabilites add to cost. However, every function now associated with normal and abnormal train operation are within the technical capabilities of automation.
Completely new systems are opting for automated operation, even in NYC. Retrofitting existing systems is not economically feasible based solely on labor saving costs. However, if the alternatives were build a new line or fully automate to achieve comparable increases in capacity then the economic feasibility answer is not clear cut.
Let me address your specific non-automatable functions. The ability to perform such tasks (reset emergency brakes, cut out doors, etc.) can be achieved with microprocessors that monitor and control such elemental opeational functions. Such microprocessors are being used on the R142's. The only additional function the ability to access these microprocessors from a remote location (other than in the train itself). I don't know whether or not the specific NYCT implemenation has this capability, however the bandwidth and technology are available and retrofitting to achieve this capability is not unreasonably complex or expensive.
Yes, there will always be the occasional item that was beyond the automation system's capabilities. This will require human intervention. However, the TA appears to have very little faith in the capabilities of its T/O's and C/R's to perform any operations outside their detailed and specific job description. Any unusual event requires the presence of qualified supervisory personnel. They just don't trust their own line personnel with having the ability to perform unusual moves with the required safety.
We've been through this before, check back to one of the past threads. I believe it was either "Queens Blvd test doesn't look good for G riders" or "G/R/V No Pax. . ."
Not a direct response to your point -- but I'll just remind everyone that it's impossible for most of us (well, me, at least) to read every single post here, or even every post that we'd likely find interesting. The volume's just too high. That means that sometimes someone will make a point that's already been made or ask a question that's already been answered.
Agreed. I'm lucky if I read a third.
10 platform conductors should be on hand from 5:30am-11:30pm (or roughly the time they begin taking trains out of service). When
a terminating train comes in, the conductors should get everyone off the train (10 conductors, 1 per car [on R-46's this leaves 2
conductors 'roaming' making sure all is okay. However, on a full 10 car train, all would be occupied.]. This should speed things up).
It should take no more than a minute to clear a train. This will prevent delays.
The R should run to 179th all times (xcept nites). The G can't do this, it isn't frequent or long enough. The F now runs express to
179th, And the E will keep it's present routing.
The V should be 6 cars. It should terminate at 71st all times (xcept nites).
The G should be 4 cars (R68's). It should go to 71st Rush hours and middays, and to Court Sq. all other times.
According to your plan the there will at most 6 cars terminating at Continental. Why do you require 10 platform conductors?
Any problems with congestion and car shortages are restricted to rush hours. There is no logistic reason why the G should not not continue to Continental during non-rush hours.
Oh no, no local should go past Continental except rush hours, that's taking it too far.
"The R should run to 179th all times (xcept nites). The G can't do this, it isn't frequent or long enough. The F now runs express to 179th, And the E will keep it's present routing.
The V should be 6 cars. It should terminate at 71st all times (xcept nites). "
Very bad idea on all sides. The V MUST be EIGHT cars. It is the line going through the crowded 53rd Street tunnel. And, if you send only the R to 179th St., you will have the same problem that cause them to replace it with the F - too infrequent. What they could do, extend the V to one 179th Street. And leave the G at 71st Street.
The R also runs at 72 percent compacity. That means that the R doesn't have the crush loads like the trains going through 53rd Street. Therefore, it would make more sense to cut the R from 8 cars to 6.
I also expect the R passenger ratio to be further reduce because of the more popular V (the 53rd Street tunnel) which will be sharing tracks with the R.
Again. As I said this in another post. The R should be cut to 6 cars, the G to 4 cars. Meanwhile, the E should be extended to 11 cars, if possible (32 series). And the F and V should be 8 cars (46 series).
N Broadway Line
You want to run 4 cars on the G on Queens Blvd? Obviously, you NEVER observed the PM rush at Roosevelt Ave with all those people getting off the express and changing for the local for stops between Elmhurst Ave. and 67th Ave. Those riders would be screaming about short trains, conductors would never get the doors closed, and there would be severe station dwell time. And you should know better that R32's are married cars, you can't run 11 cars.
You are forgetting there would be two other full-train lines to support it: the R and V.
"You are forgetting there would be two other full-train lines to support it: the R and V."
He's right New Flyer, BUT THE CARS ARE JUST NOT THERE! So... if they decide to run the G, they should run only 4 cars so that more cars can be available for the R/V which will run to 179th Street.
You can't provide a service like this unless you educate passengers on how to use the system. For instance, they should be signs for where the G line stops in the station. And passengers should be told that running into a very crowded train cause problems. And they should be told that it will be better for them (passengers) to wait a few minutes more for an emptier train to avoid headaches.
I do it all the time. I will let three trains go by so that I won't get into an extremely crowded train.
N Broadway Line
NYCT commuters are pretty efficeint street-wise. These aren't Amtrak's long-distance passenger ninnies here. Paint a Green stripe along the platform for the 300 feet that the G trains stop in. This is what the LIRR did along the Babylon line for short off-peak open cars with 10-12 car platforms.
Couldn't they paint the platform where the train stops at? LIRR does this "Off peak riders please stand in the green colored areas of the platform"
Yes, that's what I said.
"He's right New Flyer, BUT THE CARS ARE JUST NOT THERE! So... if they decide to run the G, they should run only 4 cars so that more cars can be available for the R/V which will run to 179th Street."
That's what I mean, if the G goes past Court Sq, it should be 4 cars.
"You can't provide a service like this unless you educate passengers on how to use the system. For instance, they should be signs for where the G line stops in the station. And passengers should be told that running into a very crowded train cause problems. And they should be told that it will be better for them (passengers) to wait a few minutes more for an emptier train to avoid headaches."
Agreed.
"I do it all the time. I will let three trains go by so that I won't get into an extremely crowded train."
Not everybody has that kind of time.
No I did not forget. The average passenger is not as patient as you are. Riders generally feel that "I must get on this train because I have no idea when the next one will come." Are you trying to change passenger/human behavior? Or maybe we should have reservations ala a first class AMTRAK train as to who can ride a 4 car G train or not because of its' limited capacity on Queens Blvd.
"The average passenger is not as patient as you are. Riders generally feel that "I must get on this train because I have no idea when the next one will come."
Yes, but since the R and V are backing it up, the crowds won't be as bad. If the G is smudged in, the crowds won't build the way they do now with just two trains. The train in front of the G shouldn't be more than 3 minutes away. Today, a train comes every 5 minutes I believe at the QB lcl stops.
The G tried running 4 car trains during the week about 6 yrs ago. It was back to running 6 cars less than a week after they tried it!
But now there would be a V to take up the slack. If they don't want to run to or wait in the middle of the platform for a G, they can wait for the next R or V.
ON past evidence, the only way to make the G/R/V work is to cut service to the predominately minority neighborhoods of Brooklyn, upper Manhattan, and the Bronx. I hope they do it, so people in these areas can come to understand what has been happening all these years while their "representatives" drive to Albany, City Hall, or Borough Hall and fight for more funding for the non-profits in their clique.
RIGHT! JOE V.
N Bwy
I don't think the 53rd Street tunnel is any more popular than the 60th Street tunnel, per se. (The ever-popular transfer to the 6 is easier at 60th than at 53rd and the 4/5 also stops there.) The express is more popular than the local, and the express happens to run through 53rd.
What I do is, I take the E/F exp to Queens Plaza, only if there is an R there I will take it all the way through to my stop, Lawrence St. I've done this since it started running Bway Exp southbound, at the end of the repairs, taking the R any more than the 3 stops necessary to get to Roosevelt will be unknown to me. I have to get from Woodhaven to Lawrence or Jay. Trips I have tried:
1) R all the way. {when it was Bway local}
2) G/R to Roosevelt, E/F to West 4th, D/Q to DeKalb, M/N/R to Lawrence {proved faster than the R all the way, but not by much}
3) G/R to Roosevelt, E/F to Queens Plz, if there's R there, take it all the way {proved faster than both above}
4) G/R to Roosevelt, if E, take to Port Authority and wait for A/C to Jay, if F take it to Jay. {Fastest: about 50 minutes}
What about the G straight through to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, at least from Queens Plaza? (Cross over to the A/C to Jay if you insist, or just walk it.) I don't know if this is any faster but it's probably worth a shot.
Compared to the F all the way through, it probably isn't any faster, but I'm always at the front, so if I get an E and wait for the C, which always gets in before the A without getting passed by one, I get a ride through Cranberry with a good railfan window which hits 51 Mph. Also, there are some areas on the G line I feel wary going through.
"The R should run to 179th all times (xcept nites)."
Don't be hasty. Weekdays is enough, don't want Eastern Queens local stops arguing over loss of exp service on weekends.
"And the E will keep it's present routing."
If it stopped at 75th Ave and Briarwood, it helps out the R, so let it run local for that short stretch. Less arguments from those stops.
"The V should be 6 cars. It should terminate at 71st all times (xcept nites)."
The V is to be a part time service, weekdays only.
I've got a simple solution that I haven't heard yet.
Keep the G and the R lines the way they are now and let the new V line run as an express along Queens Boulevard with the E and the F.
However, the V wouldn't terminate at Continental Avenue. It would then do as the F does now, run local to 179th Street. The F could run express to 179th Street.
In short, here's my plan:
E - No change.
F - No change; however, runs through the 63rd Street tunnel between Manhattan and Queens. Express Queens Plaza - 179th Street.
G - No change.
R - No change.
V - Operates between 179th Street, Jamaica and 2nd Avenue/Houston Street, Manhattan. Local in Manhattan, runs through the 53rd Street tunnel with the E, express Queens Plaza - Continental Avenue, local Continental Avenue - 179th Street.
Any problems with my plan? Lemme hear 'em!
Yeah, the express tracks are saturated as it is. In the rush, 2 trains every 5 minutes, 1 E, 1 F. You would have to cut service on one of the 2 lines. When the F crosses in from 63rd St, to the express track, the V & E service would have to hold back.
Yeah, the express tracks are saturated as it is. In the rush, 2 trains every 5 minutes, 1 E, 1 F.
The design limit for these tracks is 2 trains every 3 minutes.
New signals are being installed. I question if you can have 2 trains every 3 minutes with the new signals. I can speak from 20 years experience as a road motorman: anywhere new signals are being placed into service, they tend to be more restrictive than the ones they are replacing. New signals tend to slow the railroad down. But what do I know?
53rd St needs a QB local. The G riders who want to get to Rego Park want direct local service. Also, E/F exp track is at capacity with 30 tph, the V will either cause major delays or cause less tph for the E/F
My email address at jhnwy@spec.net will be no more by the end of this month. My new email address is the same as my screen name
Qtraindash7@aol.com.
Don't forget my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/reality569/index.html
And yahoo clubs
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radiosucks
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/musicinchina
I hope all of you had a beautiful Sea Beach Day. I think we can now start anticipating days to honor other lines. Hey, did I create a monster or what? All in fun. Have a great Friday and weekend. Sea Beach signing off on Sea Beach Day.
Let's hope to have a better Sea Beach day next year.
BMTJeff
Tonite's discussion was focused on the design of Public spaces weighing security against openness. One of the guests said that the poorly designed airports with the security just added on were as about as inviting as a "Subway Station". Well Mr. Know-it-all, I think that Subway stations are VERY inviting.
NYC subway stations?
Taste is subjective, so I can't argue with you.
However, I am sure that if a professional and politically neutral planning team, with the benefit of 100 years of hindsight, could magically change the structure and appearance of NYC's subways, they would look very, very different.
That would be the case due to a whole list of reasons, which would take forever for one person to type.
Yeah, especially Van Alst.
I think a letter to Nightline's editor protesting ignorance about subways is appropriate. Maybe the correspondent should be assigned this punishment: to write 100 times in a notepad "Subways are good. Subways are good" while riding through the 63rd St Connector.
Tonite's discussion was focused on the design of Public spaces weighing security against openness. One of the guests said that the poorly designed airports with the security just added on were as about as inviting as a "Subway Station". Well Mr. Know-it-all, I think that Subway stations are VERY inviting.
Who was the guest? I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't ridden a subway in years if ever. What a schmuck.
Im back from my trip to to Washington D.C. I will talk about my trip in the morning.
Now as I promised I will tell you all about my trip to Washington D.C.
It started when I left my home and took a plane from manchester(A Plane is faster than a train) to Regan national airport it was foggy in Washington D.C. well after we landed we proceded to the metro we got are farecards a took the yellow line. we took one of the newer breda cars. We got of at gallery place chinatown and we switched to the redline to union station and went to our hotel we coudent check in to the hotel yet so we went to the capital buliding and the libray of congress. On the last day of my trip I took photos of the metro
and we took our last look at Washington D.C.we took the red line to gallery place chinatown and the blue line to National airport and took a boeing 737 home. my website will be done i will tell you all.
Newer Breda cars? Unit number would be helpful here. The newest are 10 years old (4000 series).
Maybe he meant that the breda cars are newer than the Rohr cars.
I did think of that.
the ones from 1991 thats the one I mean
Does anyone know where MTA Subways style Conductor's uniforms are sold?
I can also be reached off line at Bowtrolley@email.msn.com
No, I'm not planning to steal an "A" train !
Thanks,
Bob D.
They are obtained by mail order from a supplier. We can also use a"kiosk" which is a machine which rsemebles an ATM at certain NYCT employee locations. Except for sweaters and jackets we get new items every three years. Jackets and sweaters are every five years.
You have to furnish the official order form and your pass number to order by mail or phone or enter your pass number on the kiosk.
We get six short sleeve and six long sleeve shirts and five bottoms in a straight or pleated front with a maximum of two winter weight slacks. Female employees can also choose from skirts or culottes as part of their five bottoms. Any employee can choose any combination of the five bottoms. Guys cannot pick culottes.
This applies to all NYCT titles wearing uniforms.
I wish I'd been wearing a conductor's uniform when I posed for photos while assuming the position between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum when it was still allowed.:-)
You could always a conductor uniform from http://www.transquip.net/
I just might do that. Thanks.
Boeing*, Bombardier, MBB, And Hawker-siddeley all make airplanes and trains
*this company used to make trains
When did Boeing ever make railway equipment? They did build the LRVs that plagued Boston and San Francisco at their Vertol plant that built helicopters. They also assembled the Kawasaki LRV's for SEPTA.
Say "Boeing" to the average man-on-the-street and he'll think of airplanes.
I think Boeing also built some elevated cars for Chicago, and they were involved with the SOAC project although I don't think they actually constructed those cars themselves. If they did build some El cars for Chicago, that probably was as close as they got to making railway equipment.
-Robert King
Chicago el indeed. The 2400-2500 series, my favorites on the CTA, nothing really special, just have a style of their own. Think it was 1974 or so.They're the only Boeing railway cars other than light rail I can think of.
As you all know the TA & Cubic has been installing those big MVM (MetroCard Vending Machines) all about town. They had intended to add a MRM (MetroCard Refill Machine), but just as they were about to start testing them some suit in the TA asked "can they issue a new card if the one the customer puts in is NG ?". Well it was back to the drawing board for the mfg. Now the new machine, MEM, MetroCard Express Machine is ready for testing. The new machine is table top size vs. floor to ceiling, so you'll be able to recognize them right away. My inside source says that you may see one or two of them next month.
Mr t__:^)
Interesting. Since the MVMs are all MRMs anyway, why did the TA want just MRMs? (Cheaper, smaller, faster?)
To encourage refilling of cards.
Agreed. That’s maybe the time that the refills get the extra 10% but new cards don’t. It could help the litter problem.
Before I start refilling cards, the TA will have to push expiration dates another year or two into the future. I don't ride the subway every day, and with the occasional card that I misplace and find months later, it's just not worth the risk to refill.
You can replace an expired card for up to one year.
I know, but why go through the hassle, or even take the risk of going through the hassle?
Will these machines allow trade-in like the MVMs used to?
MVMs still do if you put in a card 30 days or less before expiring. They'd better allow trade-in or at least combining, I loved that feature (get lots of serial #s on one receipt).
MVMs still do if you put in a card 30 days or less before expiring.
How do they do that? When you try to refill it gives you a new card? Does it give back the old one first? Does it warn you?
When you try to refill it, it says "this card had x days until expiring. Do you want to trade in?" Say yes, it gives you the old card, then the new one. The MVMs will never capture a card, they have no place to keep it.
Does it do this before or after it asks you how much money you want to add?
I believe he's talking about a Unlimited MC. You can't re-fill them.
Because they have become very popular this has limited the small desire that folks had to re-fill value cards (regular riders find a unlim. card more convient ... it either works or it doesn't, so you don't have to keep track of the value on the card or worry that the tunstile/fare box took too much or didn't give you the Transfer you were expecting). I use either a Fun Pass (24 hours, actually to 3 AM) or a value card, because I'm not a regular user.
Mr t__:^)
I believe he's talking about a Unlimited MC.
He is NOT.
I use either a Fun Pass (24 hours, actually to 3 AM) or a value card, because I'm not a regular user.
Not all regular users can use the unlimited card. I'm a regular user, but that regularity is only tri-weekly.
It immediately warns you the moment you stick the card in, I don't think it even gives you the option of adding money during the transfer. You have to start over after you get the new card.
The reason why I ask is this picture (20.0-15) on an R36 in the 9518-9 set. It looks like a yellow 6-circle was covered up by a green 6-diamond, which is now revealing a little bit of the old reading.
I don't know, but there's still a red (5) on the defunct shuttle platform at Bowling Green, above the staircase.
There are pink 4 and black 5 signs at two entrances to Bowling Green station, the ones next to the bank and across from the museum building.
I am aware of those, but my question concerns yellow 6 signs on rollsigns.
In today's Daily News:
TA Boss Nixes Pols' Subway Plans. While I don't disagree that buses would get tied up in traffic, the argument against running the M 24/7 (that there are not enough passengers) looks to me to be a bit of chicken and egg philosophy. That is, how do we know that there will not be high enough ridership after the north side of the bridge closes if we don't try it then? Are these people for real? Maybe we should take the MTA officials for a visit in Chinatown.
That really irks me. I agree that shuttle buses aren't a great idea, but the M should run to Brooklyn 24/7. What a bunch of garbage!
The MTA just loves giving poorer, minority communities the shaft. Chinatown with Grand street, and probably G riders will get screwed too.
If Chinatown residents had the money and power, then they'd be heard.
I'm sure gonna feel bad for those mystical girls that will now have a much longer walk when the come home from working in the Brooklyn sweatshops.
The ignorance of the needs of Chinatown is so blatent. Running the M to Brooklyn would've made a lot of people's lives much more easier.
And I'm still worried about the sidewalk congestion on Canal. It's people gridlock as it is, and it's gonna get a lot worse.
Be prepared there will be more people walking in Canal street, which will probably quickly surpass Queens Blvd as the road of death.
Running the M to Brooklyn 24/7 would've been the most sensible thing to do. Unfortunately the TA isn't well known for good decision making.
Bowery is a short walk from Grand, and it's UNDER-USED. What a damn shame!
For some reason Cleveland, OH popped into my mind last night. No news has been on Subtalk that I remember lately. For those who know I'm curious which types of cars are still running there and if there's been any new equipment.
When I was there in l963 they had a) PCC's on the Shaker Heights RT,b) cars that looked something like the PATH K cars on the other route, the name of which I forgot.
They got some ugly "Airporter" cars IIRC in the late 70's but I never did get to see them in real life or ride them. Somebody please advise what types of cars are currently in service on each line and whether any of the equipment I've mentioned is still in service.
Shame on me, my l963 visit was my only visit.
on this site--a line by line with pictures of the earlier equipment. The car status currently is.
The ex Shaker lines Breda built LRV's set up for low platforms. The 'airport cars' you mention have been retired. Sumitomo built stainless steel Rapid Transit cars set up for high level patforms, are used on the 'Rapid' now caled the Red Line. when I last visited in 94 ridership was sadly very thin.
I was looking at a picture of the East New York Station on the Bay Ridge Branch. Anyone know when the LIRR stopped using this station? Or how did people get to street level? Finally, why are those track just sitting there? Its just a waste today. Thank you......
[Anyone know when the LIRR stopped using this station?]
The East New York station was last used as an official station stop in 1924, if I'm correct.
[How did people get to street level?]
Until 1924 there was a simple wooden staircase that led up to the street (E. New York Ave at Van Sinderen St.). Passengers were able to make transfers to the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch (which at that time ran at street grade) or climb the staircase of the El structure to get the Canarsie rapid transit trains.
[Finally, why are those track just sitting there? Its just a waste today.]
The tracks are indeed unused, since the New York & Atlantic Railway uses the center-most track as their mainline on the Bay Ridge.
There's always some concept that comes up every now and again by various transit advocacy groups of turning a portion of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch into a rapid transit or Light Rail Vehicle Line. If any of those scenerios comes to pass then the East New York hi-level platform would certainly come in handy as a viable transfer point for passengers.
BMTman
This is a line that was converted to freight use, then, correct?
I believe there was always freight on the line, passenger service simply ended (just like on the North Shore Line). I think portions of the Bay Ridge line had separate freight and passenger tracks.
No, back in those days (before FRA regulations) freight and passenger trains may have co-existed on the same trackage (If I'm correct).
Although in the earlier part of the 20th Century, the Bay Ridge was four tracks wide at most points, so perhaps passenger trains ran on their own trackage and likewise for freight. I think an expert in this area (aka Bob Anderson) would be required to answer to this better than I.
Check www.lirrhistory.com for further info on the Bay Ridge specifically.
BMTman
I'm over 2000 miles away so think I'm safe from a vendetta. The awful truth: For some time when I worked Canarsie I'd look at that right of way and think what a perfect place to move the L line trackage to[but then I'd hate to see another relic el come down].Almost neck and neck to the end, except for the last 2 stops; a connection from Wilson Ave. Better get off this train before I get cornered by some people!!!But then repeat I'd hate to see the old el come down.
Outside of the one stretch south of Broadway Junction and the other one along 62nd Street in South Brooklyn, the problem with using the LIRR Bay Ridge branch for higher capacity light or heavy rail is the line runs counterflow to where most people want to go in the city. It would be used more as a feeder line for other lines going towards Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn, and the MTA already has one of those -- the G -- and we know what they think about that line right now.
I was thinking (on another thread) that if they did build the cross harbor freight tunnel either via N.J. or S.I., then Amtrak in the future could run some Newark/Penn Station bypasses that went through Brooklyn and Queens along the Bay Ridge line on the way from Washington to Boston. That would allow the East New York station to be revived, and they could also put stations in South Brooklyn (around 62nd-New Utretcht), west-central Queens and Staten Island, if they opted for the tunnel/B&O bridge connection to New Jersey instead of a tunnel directly across to Bayonne.
[Outside of the one stretch south of Broadway Junction and the other one along 62nd Street in South Brooklyn, the problem with using the LIRR Bay Ridge branch for higher capacity light or heavy rail is the line runs counterflow to where most people want to go in the city]
I disagree. Using the Bay Ridge branch for passenger service would be advantageous for those folks based in Southwestern Brooklyn (Bath Beach, Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Gravesend) to get to Central Queens much faster than -- in most cases -- first having to travel through the heart of Manhattan to do so. Using the Bay Ridge for passenger service would indeed serve a need.
BMTman
I disagree. Using the Bay Ridge branch for passenger service would be advantageous for those folks based in Southwestern Brooklyn (Bath Beach, Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Gravesend) to get to Central Queens much faster than -- in most cases -- first having to travel through the heart of Manhattan to do so. Using the Bay Ridge for passenger service would indeed serve a need.
But how many people have to do that? Very few. It doesn't make sense to waste on an investment that way when much more useful lines can be built.
Amtrak would also be able to run through non-electrified trains (provided the tunnel has an excellent ventilation system). Or apply third rail and use dual mode (still better than hourlong engine changes).
Or install catenary. Third rail sucks, its use should not be expanded.
Unless of course you have a system that already extensively uses third rail and wants to expand electrification.
From the pictures I have seen on oldnyc.com and other places, there was once provision for catenary along the Bay Ridge line. Mention was made about remains of catenary hangers above the tunnel portals.
Additionally, the NY Connecting Railroad line from the Hell Gate Bridge has at least one complete assembly near the Metropolitan Avenue M train terminal including the side posts as well as the post across the two or four tracks of the line, from which the wires were suspended.
From the pictures I have seen on oldnyc.com and other places, there was once provision for catenary along the Bay Ridge line.
There was not a provision for catenary, there was actual catenary.
Why would anyone remove catenary?
Arti
So they could make pennies out of the salvage wire. The decision makerhad its head up his anus.
Curt
It might be old news to many, but the wire went all the way to Bay Ridge. Even the LIRR switched with B6's.
Once upon a time while I was in Kindergarten I attended PS 154 or 145 just off of Northern Blvd and west of the line. I can still picture the big NYNH&H Electrics pulling freights to and from the docks to Hells Gate. Maybe not in my life time but sometime in the future the wire will go back up. It will be a done deal if the tunnel is built under the harbor. With the new tunneling technology it can be done if the politicians can be kept out of it.
Burn the Slow Order and Wrap It.
Curt
Indeed the Bay Ridge was outrigged with catanary wire as late as 1969, because the great ex-Virginian 'Rectifiers' (aka EF-4's) hauled frieght over the line up till around 1971, if my info is correct.
BMTman
Not sure when the cantenary wire was finally removed, but I believe it lasted up till around '70 or '71.
There are remnants of the towers along the line going westbound (the concrete bases).
And over by the old LIRR yards at Junius and Livonia is a genuine cantenary tower rusting away, but left standing minus the wiring connections.
BMTman
Here ye Here ye, here ye according to the history found thru NYC Subway Org. I here by proclaim that July 2, will be and forever be Brighton Line Day. The forrunner of Todays Brighton Beach Line opened that day in 1978 between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach, so as #1 BRIGHTON BEACH BOB JULY 2nd is the day
The Brighton will have its day sooner than that, I think.
what do you mean?
I believe MSG Metro Cable will have a piece with some views on the Brighton Line. I don't know the date and I'll believe it when I see it. No Sea Beach, though. Sorry, Fred.
Paul: What else is new? Just another day of dissing my train. I call it par for the course. But it doesn't change my feeling towards the Sea Beach one twit, and I appreciate your emphathy with my frustrated state. I need all the support I can get. I will be razzed by Bob on this.
I have to agree, Fred. The Sea Beach has suffered undeserved indignities. It was built as a nice 4-track open cut, not a 3-track el, like the Culver and West End. It was given a super express track to run super expresses. It was home to Triplexes and Standards. It had the honor of being the first service to use the 4th Avenue Subway and Manhattan Bridge. Its express service on the 4th Avenue and Broadway Lines ran 18/7 in some years and even 24/7 others.
Now it has laid low by an uncaring NYCTA which has reduced it to a sorry local, doomed to the tunnel, even after the Manhattan Bridge south side reopens. It really is unfair. What did the Sea Beach ever do to deserve it?
Paul, you're a man after my own heart, just as I am after the hearts of the MTA. Only the difference is if I had my druthers I'd be after their hearts with a stiletto. You've hit every cord of my anger of what my train was and what it has become. I have to believe that there are those in the TA who really hate the idea of a cut, or just don;t like the name Sea Beach, or maybe it reminds them of some episode in their lives which they want to forget. Either way it, to quote my favorite poet William Blake, "they binding with briars my joys and desires."
Fred, you are the poet laureate of the Great Sea Beach.
Remember, the "N" stands for "Never surrender!"
I'll try to remember that Paul while the Sea Beach slogs its way through the long and rotten Montague Tunnel while less deserving trains get to go over the Manhattan Bridge. Boy do I despise the MTA.
What it did was not have was enough ridership. Geographically, it is sandwiched between the Culver and West End. To make things worse, it was not built with express stops between 59th St. and Coney Island. There probably should have been express stops at New Utrecht Av and Kings Highway or Avenue U, with the local terminating at 86th St. As a railfan, I would like it to have been embanked up southeast of New Utrecht, instead of dumping the cut ground in the sea next to New Jersey.
The forrunner of Todays Brighton Beach Line opened that day in 1978 ...
Gee, I wonder what line I was riding in the 1950s and 60s? :-)
-- Ed Sachs
YES! THE BRIGHTON LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, sorry.
Picture taken by me today at Sheepshead Bay. I sincerly hope it didn't get its name from the decapition of a sheep. However, I do like lamb chops.
Tony
Great Picture, wish it was at Kings Highway though
Hey, at least it's a nifty photo of a nice Q train of speedy slants.
Thanks for the picture!
HIP HIP HOORAY !!
Bill "Newkirk"
A resoudning HIP, HIP, HOORAY!
(P.S., I think Paul meant 1878 NOT 1978!)
BMTman
Ok Doug, let's hear you say something nice about the Sea Beach. I'll be waiting for your reply. BTW, are there any fan trips planned in the next few months. I will be coming east in August to see Brighton Express Bob in Virginia and to attend the Babe Ruth World Series there. I could make a side trip to New York if it is worth my while.
If it is on a weekend we both will go. Fred you and I will ride the Potomic Eagle in West Virginia or the Western Maryland Tourist trains in Cumberland Md one day there
And you two will no doubt get into a Brighton vs Sea Beach debate/shouting match on the train.:-)
Yes we probably will but it will be on a Sea Beach train so I'll have some of my supporters giving me backup. But we will also ride the Brighton---but not the local.
Why should we fight, funny the 2 times we got together, we talked about Sub Talk, but we talked about other things in common too, like History, families etc. Fred is a very good friend, even if he likes the N. But he is old, and has childhood flashbacks to 50 years ago when the Sea Beach was a prime Train. But that was then, now is now.
I can see it now. A train of R-32s on the N with everyone chanting, "Sea Beach, Sea Beach, SEA BEACH, SEA BEACH!!!" Then no one will hear the conductor announce that due to a GO the train will be running nonstop from 59th to Stillwell Ave. Now the chant really picks up. The train blazes along the express track at 45 mph. Then I wake up and realize it was all a dream.
Hmm, I plan to be in the big city in August, too. Around the middle of the month. What about you?
It is possible Q. Brighton Beach Bob and I might take a side trip to the Big City around then. Keep in touch, maybe we can hook up.
It was Bib not Paul and it was 1978
Citing inability to afford meeting federal law for transporting the disabled, SEPTA announced that a doctor's note will no longer be sufficient for a rider to be considered disabled; riders will have to flunk a physical or mental exam to qualify for ADA status. SEPTA says 10% of disabled riders are malingering.
Story in Inquirer
This is a disheartening situation, but a consequence of underfunded public transit in Pennsylvania. Paratransit is expensive, and would not be as much of a budget-buster if more of SEPTA's rail and bus network were fully ADA-compliant. Whereas there are LIRR lines with 80-90% ADA-compliant stations, SEPTA has far fewer in compliance. 18% of R6 (Norristown) stations outside the Center-City/Broad Street area, for example, are compliant. 60% of the bus fleet is compliant, but a bus cannot adequately substritute for a train.
I have recently relocated to the Philly area, but still keep one foot in New York. I have begun working with community organizations to get SEPTA to rebuild Regional Rail stops to ADA-compliance. We'll see just how hard it is to get that accomplished.
Good news: Suburban Station is undergoing a $22 million rebuild to ADA-compliance. 30th Street is compliant (but not Market-Frankford stop) and so is Market East. The Market Frankford Line needs more compliant stations, esp. at points in Center City where it intersects with the Broad Street line, PATCO and Regional Rail.
The Suburban Station renovation is long overdue, for ADA reasons as well as any other. I assume as the Market St. El is rebuilt, it will become fully ADA compliant. I wonder how this will be affected by plans announced to build a new skyscraper at 18th and JFK, adjoining Suburban Station underground. Also, One of the buildings next to Suburban (Penn Center x?) is to be sold and plans to renovate its portion of the underground concourse adjoining the station.
I think getting SEPTA to rebuild regional rail stations to be ADA compliant will be really hard. Most of the platforms are low platforms, and would have to be raised. However, for the MFL and other subways, this should happen. Anyway, it's a system based on old systems, so that may have been one of the problems.
For the subways it's harder, you'd have to find places to place elevators and dig them.
In the commuter rail, it's much easier. ALL platforms should be high platform.
Both of you are correct.
Hard, yes - and I'm going to find out over the next 2-3 years how impossible it is (or, I hope, isn't).
They managed to make Cornwells Hts accessible without raising the platforms (mini high platform). NJT did the same with Rutherford and Denville and an bunch of other stations.
granting out front that SEPTA is chronicly underfunded because of both racist and cultural politics. (think Upstate), this is still appalling. "So stand up out of your wheelchair amd swear or affirm"
You're right, Dave. It's a disgrace.
Could John Blair be the same as John J. Blair?
www.chicago.tribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,ART-51327,FF.html
Where is John Blair mentioned in this article?
Towards the end- 16th paragraph. " To reduce the danger, officials will install sensors in the roadway that detect vehicles near the tracks . . . said John Blair a railroad specialist with the ICC"
Tain't Me.
My name wasn't mentioned in the article, but there are a lot of us around. for instance one of us founded what was to become the Delaware Lackawanna & Western RR, another was one of the defenders of the Alamo. We are everywhere.
And we thought John Smith was a common name.:-)
Does anyone know what was going on on the IND CPW line today? I was out doing what I do every Friday on my day off, and heard that all uptown IND trains were terminating at 59th Street. I put on my tranceiver, and heard that there was a police investigation at 135th. That's a pretty big cutback in service, so I was wondering what was up.
My Page
Currently, during the AM rush, there are four 3 trains that go into service from 137/Bway. According to the proposed IRT work program, effective July1, 2001, these trains will go into service from E.180 St. Before anyone asks, I do not know if they will be thru-expresses.
I did hear that the 3 trains that originate from 137/Bway was going to be cut out for the next pick. I also felt that some 3 trains should originate from the Bx as well. Lets see what happens......
Having some rush-hour 3 trains orginate from East 180th sounds like it might be a good idea. I often see empty 3 trains during rush hour follow by hugely overcrowded 2 trains. It might be a good idea.
What will run on these trains? R62s or redbirds?
Darn. Those things are so helpful, whenever I catch one in the morning. No need to transfer at 96th St., which seems to be getting more crowded all the time.
Hmm. I never knew that some 3's came from 137th. They should keep those, instead of sending 3's from 180th. It makes sense to do this: local riders on that line can get instant express service instead of transferring at 96th.
But then again, that crowded Bronx line could use some more 7th av service too.
As if 10 car R-32 G trains weren't bad enough:
In a departure from my usual route home from school, this afternoon I took the Lex Local to Union Square and took the L to Lorimer St. As I got downstairs to the 10 car R-32 G train I boarded and took the (vacant) railfan window.
A few stops later as we pulled into the station, I nearly fell over: An F train was pulling in from the opposite direction.
What is going on?!?!!
Dan
It's called a re-route.
Selected southbound F trains are being re-routed on the 63rd St Connector on the AM's and via Crosstown on the PM's. This is due to a slow speed order in the 53rd St Tube which is causing backups during the rush hour.
Not only that, but the Cubs are in first place so far. The End Times are near... Be afraid. Be very afraid.
(Well, okay, it's only the first month of the season. If they're still in first place in September, better stock up on canned goods and weapons.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
And my Orioles are as pitiful as can be! Big deal?
Wait till September. Oriole Park will be empty and we will hear the Cubs have a record comparible to the Bulls (their neighbors). Hm, maybe I can get those 2nd row seats at Camden Yards...
What are you saying???
You wait and see, it will be the Mets and the Orioles all the way, culminating in a half subway, half metro world series!
LOL!
LOL! I wish.
We have to think positive thoughts!
I'm looking forward to driving to Owings Mills, riding the Metro to Lexington Mkt, and walking Eutaw St to the Yards!
1. The Second Avenue Subway will open, fully complete as originaly planned.
2. The Boston Red Sox will win the World Series in 4 straight.
3. Shrub will admit he stole the Presidency, resign and join a Tibetian monastery.
be careful what you wish for, then Cheney will be president. :-<,
as for the Bosox, they traded away their greatness when they sent Ruth to the ***A*W*E*S*O*M*E***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** and as for the Second ave subway, well, you just gotta be kidding. actually, I'm looking for the Mets to take it all this year
be careful what you wish for, then Cheney will be president. :-<
He already is.
Cheney will never be president - he'll drop dead from his 50th heart attack before taking office.
NO NO NO Chaney will NOT NOT NOT have a heart attack because he has no heart, that's an oil pump.
Laugh it off all you Dems. Clinton is gone but his stench remains. Gore, who knows where he is? And who the hell cares? Hillary? She's your problem. Enjoy her. GWB is setting his own pace and will do just fine----just as he did in Texas. Eat your hearts out.
Hi, Fred :-)
Hi John----you guys had to get me going on the politics again, didn't you? Well, guess what? Some of my closest buddies on Subtalk, including you I hope, are Dems. I think Rosa, Train Dude, and maybe Lawrence are in my political camp. Hey, but it is all in fun, just as long as none of us get too wrapped up in it. Next time I'm in New York maybe we can hook up. I'd love to get a really big contingent of railfanners togerther for a big weekend excursion of the sites. I had a hell of time on April 1. I think there were 11 of us and it was a gas.
You are OK, Fred.
I think that you may be in the minority on that one, but keep up the good thoughts. Read the posts on the graffiti death. They're quite interesting.
Nah, Fred, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat (In Baltimore, the ratio of Democrat to Republican registration ran as high as 14 to 1 when I registered, long, long, ago.) The last time a Republican sat on the Baltimore City Council was 1943, and 75% of the people alive today in Baltimore weren't around in 1943. We only get Republican Mayors when the Democrats screw up big time. (In fairness, Theodore Roosevelt McKeldin (twice Mayor of Baltimore, Twice Governor of Maryland was one of the best we ever had in the 1950's.)
On the Other Hand, Spiro Theodopolis Agnew ("Ted" Agnew when he ran for Baltimore County Exec and Gov) was a total disaster as Gov and VP.
As for politics, it's a hobby. I'd rather talk streetcars, subways and trains.
Railfan talk is better. No argument on that. But it looks like I am just as outnumbered politically as I am by my Brighton buddies who like to razz me about my Sea Beach. Now I know for sure how minorities feel.
Political joke:
What is the difference between a Conservative Democrat and a Liberal Republican?
Nothing.
For the record, I consider myself politicaly a Conservative Democrat and an Ultra-Conservative Railfan. Streetcars forever!!!
Hey, Fred, if it'll make you feel any better, I didn't vote for Mr. Bill in '92 or '96, nor did I vote for Uncle Al last November. Let's leave it at that.
Now, picture if you will, a train of R-32s gliding into Union Square on the uptown express track, carrying "N-57th Street" signs up front and zipping effortlessly past 23rd and 28th Streets. It's not the same as a train of Triplexes, but most enjoyable.
I'll buy the whole message, especially the last part of it. Nice going. I leave my room now on a positive note and in a good frame of mind. You're a good guy.
"I had a hell of time on April 1. I think there were 11 of us and it was a gas."
Did the missus catch you kissing that framed D-Type on the Sea Beach picture ?
Bill "Newkirk"
She's caught me twice Bill but she has known all along that I was a not your garden variety male in the first place. I also have to say she wonders about the guy who would give her crazy husband a picture that calculated to make him even more nuttier.
Does she go around telling everyone that her husband is as nutty as a fruitcake?:-)
"She's caught me twice Bill but she has known all along that I was a not your garden variety male in the first place"
Every womans nightmare is catching their husband kissing another woman.
The ultimate nightmare of Sea Beach Fred's wife is catching him kissing a picture of a subway car !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Excuse me while I plant a lip lock on a picture of the Newkirk Avenue station !
Excuse me while I plant a wet one on my R-10 screensaver photo.:-)
YOU EVIL GOP
BUT, BUT, Didn't Lincoln START the GOP
Don' blame me, I voted for GORE!
Lincoln didn't start the GOP. In fact, he did not join the new Republican Party until 1856, two years after its formation. You know. The party of Union, equality, and freedom. Your boys were the slavers and oppressors. Remember?
You said that? With a name like Lincoln? My stars, I'm going to get apoplexy now for sure.
Yeah, and full field shunting will be restored.
"3. Shrub will admit he stole the Presidency, resign and join a Tibetian monastery."
Better Shrub than Del Monte.
I just came to the realization that I don't know what the hell my previous post means.
I mixed my "Dole" with my "Gore."
Pardon.
Oooohhh, 1969 all over again. Will history repeat itself?:-)
So long as Peter "I'm Suing For A Cellphone Head Set" Angelos is running the Orioles, Camden Yards doesn't figure to be a hotbed of activity in September.
...the Cubs are in first place so far.
So are the Phillies!!! At least until tonight's game.
So are the Phillies!!! At least until tonight's game.
Your sarcasam is not wanted here.
No the end is not near. Now if you had gotten off the L at Lorimer Street and an F pulled into that station in the oppoisite direction, then the end would have been near, though with the curves on the L east of Lorimer, the end of either the train or the sidewalls on the tunnel would have been nearer.
Thank you!
I thought this thread was going to descend into baseball wars (after a week of Israel wars, previously a week of race wars)
It’s a long way to the World Series guys, give us a break!
John
The Englishman who doesn’t care anything for baseball, but who was very impressed by the quantities of food/popcorn/beer consumed when he went to his first baseball game (at Wrigley Field) in 1983
You probably saw a rerouted "F" train. On occasion they have rerouted "F' trains onto the "G" tracks.
Last week I saw a train of R-32s running on the "R" line.
BMTJeff
Did you take the G train northbound or southbound?
- Lyle Goldman
To all,
Here is an updated weather forecast for the Washington area for tomorrow:
It will be partly sunny with the chance of some showers with highs in the mid to upper 70s. If it doesn't rain, it will be a perfect spring day in Washington.
Other than the tourists, the Washington Capials will be playing the Pittsburgh Penguins at MCI Center (near Gallery Place-Chinatown). We will be near Rosslyn at game time but we will meet some fans probably on the yellow line. This is the only major event I know of in the area.
A reminder for all. There is trackwork on the red line that will increase frequencies. While the work is going on between Silver Spring and Union Station (and we do go on part of that stretch), trains will run every 15-20 minutes until 6:30 PM. Take this into account while on your way to Union Station. Allow at least an extra 10 minutes, if not 20 to get to Union Station. An alternative for some may be to go to the Capitol South Station on the blue/orange lines. Capitol South is about 15 minutes from Union Station by foot. Keep this in mind when you plan. In addition, the RideGuide times for the red line will be innacurate due to this work.
If you are running late, please call 301-254-7289. If you get the voice mail box, please leave a message. If you have not sent your cell phone number, please do so. Pay phones are located througout the MetroRail system.
Info for film and money: 400-800 speed film works best in the subway. You will need $5 for a day pass and around $20 for lunch. We are eating at a shopping mall food court.
I look foward to meeting all of you tomorrow morning at Gate G at about 9:45. I will be wearing a white SmarTrip t-shirt and either a green or beige hat. I will also have a sign reading SubTalk, either with the logo I created or just handwritten and will probably have a shopping bag with me.
I should check my e-mail once more tomorrow morning. E-mail if you have further questions. As of now, there are 5 people coming including myself (our number was greater at one point but other commitments have arisen).
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
http://www.geocities.com/orenstransitpage/subtalkdc.htm
Had a feeling that today was going to be interesting, and I wasn't disappointed.
Around 11:30 am, I went to board my F train and what did I see on the other side entering 179 ST? It was an R44 off the A line. "Hmmm, must be a school car" I said to myself. So as I operated into 169 St, an 8 car R38 "C" train enters! Had to look at the station sign to make sure where I was. Yup, it said 169 St alright.
And to take the cake, coming back northbound, I left Ditmas Av and what did I see? A Boston "T" bus! That's right! It had all the T decals still affixed and all the advertising on it, including a rear wrap. The electronic signs said "Not In Service" of course.
Now that one took the cake!
They're gonna make you whiz in a bottle for that one. :)
Funny, I did that yesterday. Haha.
I take it "Sister Cleo the psychic" has joined the MTA then. Heh.
I saw in another post that there was a problem on CPW today, so possibly some A's and C's were diverted and ran light to 179st?
Hmmm... that wasn't me in the Boston T bus. I have driven a Boston T bus to Maine (as SubTalk Fieldtrippers to Seashore know), but never to NYC!
The CPW problem must have caused that. I'll bet B and D trains were seen in 21st Queensbridge. I wish I had been up early enough to see R-38s and 44s on Queens Blvd, though! They probably were in service, at least for a part of the Queens Blvd run, from what I've seen of these reroutes (ones where the train can not return its normal terminal) in the past.
I picked the wrong day to take the (7).
:-) Andrew
I was hearing various reports of switching problems over the radio this afternoon causing disruptions of R service.
At Times Square I heard an announcement that R trains were running through the 63rd street connector. On WCBS I heard there was no R past 57th street.
Probably R's were running through 63rd street with Q's terminating at 57th & 6th.
Sounded like a real mess.
There were problems on the 6 Avenue express. I'm not exactly sure where the problem was but trains were running coupler to coupler from at least 59 Street-Columbus Circle to Grand Street.
The time of occurance was from about 6:00 - 6:40
That might've been a different problem. I heard about this R train problem around 3:30 this afternoon. It must have been that other CPW problem. Geesh, what a mess.
Division B seems to be having a LOT of problems lately.
So that's what the announcement was! All along 6th ave I heard Queensbound F trains were turning at 57th/6th, not Qs! Knowing the TA, I should've checked Broadway (Fs were fine). This was at 2:50 PM.
Sounds like a real mess!! Glad I stuck with good ol' division A (IRT) today.
There were signal and switch problems in the 11th St. cut (where the N and R seperate).
I guess that messed up the N too.
I took a brief ride out to Staten Island today and was reminded why I don't visit there much. After a super slow S79 bus ride (the traffic is awful) with a slow bus driver, I took an SIR train from Eltingville to the ferry. It got there on time at 2:21pm, but we sat in the station for 5 minutes. Then we slowly start to move and sit again at the switch near Great Kills. A S/B train finally clears and we proceed to switch. You gotta blow the horn and go ever so slowly.
We are wrong railed all the way up to the northern part of S.I.
There were track workers and work trains all around Great Kills, around the switch.
After getting on the right rail as we near St.George we slow again to a crawl, more track work, and we are wrong railed through the tunnel.
Work trains again on the closed track. We're supposed to get to the ferry at 2:48, we don't pull in until 2:55pm. So you gotta make the mad dash for the ferry (luckily I made it).
Why in hell are they doing work on SIR so near the PM rush? Do they actually think they can manage running those trains on a single track?
The railroad was rebuilt not that long ago, why this work?
Everytime I go to SI, either at the ferry or S.Ferry I have to swipe my Metrocard several times to get it to work. I remember one time having trouble getting from SIR to the ferry swiping my card frantically then after 15 tries it works. Well today the same thing happened at the S.Ferry IRT station. It took 15 tries, finally it worked and I just made a train that pulled in to the station.
I really feel for you people on Staten Island. You really need rail access to Manhattan. The traffic is terrible since most people drive to NYC. I don't see SIR that crowded. They need to build a tunnel linking the R line with SIR.
I never thought I'd say this, but there actually is a place more isolated than Sea Cliff. It's Staten Island!
If only that jerk Robert Moses had rail tracks on the Verezanno, the commute would be so much better. Either way it's at least one hour from central and southern Staten Island (Eltingville) to NYC. It's just
as bad, if not worse than Sea Cliff. LIRR is about 50 minutes. And you just walk across a platform.
I've heard from this board that a rail line accross the Verazanno would have been impossible. Trains can't climb to steep a slope, and the Verazanno had to go very high. The approach roads would have had to be more than a mile long to acomodate rail (did I get that right fellas?)
I sort of think that Staten Island's answers lie more with commuter rail, maybe something to link it with NJ Transit or PATH.
:-) Andrew
They are reverse-signalling the SIR, thus the track work. I hope once the reverse signalling is completed a better express-local system will emerge, with express trains wrong-railing to pass local trains.
A better rail connection to NYC would be to go through New Jersey, most of the route would be under land. The line could be surface running on the North Shore line, descend to the required depth while paralleling the water and then turn right and cross the Kill Van Kull, run on or just below the surface through Bayonne and Jersey City, then cross into Manhattan through a tube parallel to PATH's. Hook up with the 8th ave line at the stub ends at Canal. Track alignments at St George allow through running from Tottenville to the North Shore line while bypassing the ferry terminal.
Signal work from GK to Jefferson Ave, tunnel work at St. George. You only wrong-railed as far as GCX. With the tunnel work, they moved the terminal interlocking out of the tunnel, and put in west of Tompkinsville, so you didn't really wrong-rail there.
The window for work crews on the SIR is 0930-1530 south of GK, and 1000-1500 north of GK. The PM rush on Staten Island actually begins around 5:30, since riders are just getting the ferry at 5pm. And yes, they can accomplish quite a bit.
-Hank
I rode the LIRR today. I was reminded of the time when I was on the E and the Train went into Emergency. I asked the Motorman and he said his hand slipped which is understandable. Anyway He says these Dead man controllers have a tendency to slip out of ur hands. Anyway I was on the LIRR Train headed towards Far Rockaway. He Arrives into Locust manor, and all of a sudden, boom! Train goes into Emergency. He holds onto the Override switch so the C/R couldn't open the doors although he was at the 6 EMU car mark, but he was a 8 EMU Train. Anyway he holds the doors close and recharges the brake system. Anyway he pulls up the doors open and thats the end of that story
On My Trip To Washington D.C. I noticed that the train cars in the back Had no motorman controling the train cars. Is this the same on the cars?
The Metro trains are ATO, the "motorman"'s main purpose is to work the doors and make the announcements.
I figure a few of you may want to know this:
Upon leaving Stillwell Ave on my last trip this afternoon, while passing the yard I noticed a 2-car move going on, it was R-40 slants nos. 4188-4189 signed up with yellow diamond 'Q' signs, both front and side. So the Brighton express next pick may not be exclusively R-68's, if at all. If I happen to come across any more of these, I'll keep you informed.
I thought I saw this when our class brought in the N train we were practicing on. The cars were parked on the "Apple" tracks near the car wash. When we layed up or train back in the yard and were dismissed, I was going to cross over and take a look at it, and catch the F, but my instructors advised me not to cross the yard, so I had to exit on that side and catch the B.
That's good that there are yellow diamonds on the slants. Now the TA can keep it the way it is now, R40s on the exp, R68s on the lcl, seeing as how they want older cars on the part time routes.
I would guess that they are going to CONTINUE to use the R40 on the Diamond "Q" once the dual "Q" service goes into effect later this summer. I can't see them wasting the R68 on the express; it's much better suited to the local service. The Slants are jackrabbits; much better to have them serve the Diamond "Q", like they do now. They also have the Diamond "W" on their rolls; and I think also a diamond "N".
wayne
We'll have to take a trip over the south side bridge tracks this fall for sure. Hopefully, the slants will be on the diamond Q.
Yes, and we shall get a good look at the now (nearing-completion) rehab of Canal Broadway station, with its smart Peacock green footer and matching Chinese "fortune" plaques. Can't believe it looked so bad not that long ago. Looking mighty good now. But it still smells of sewage and fish-water. Also on the to-see list are the rehabs of the Broadway local stops, where the original 1917 tile is being resurrected. Say good bye to the 1970's stuff! GLAD TO SEE YOU GO GO GO GO GOODBYE!
wayne
Yes, I still remember the original tilework at those stations. The northern end of 28th St. still had its original tilework behind that new wall they put up 60 feet or so from the tunnel entrance.
I agree completely. I'm looking foward to riding a diamond Q of slants from 57th to Brighton Beach looking out the railfan window.
Is 49th St. due to be restored? While it's different than the other local stations, and it's 1970's rehab was not nearly as ugly, it still looks out of place. Ditto with Bowling Green on the IRT.
Why not make the trip July 1 when the new service starts?
Believe me, if I could be on hand, I would. As it stands, I come out to the East Coast once a year in October to attend my college Homecoming, and spend a few days in the city prior to heading up to Connecticut.
FWIW, I was in the city on July 1, 1968, when the KK made its debut. Never rode on it, though.
I wonder if anyone did, after the train magically transported from the BMT at Essex to the IND at Bway Lafayette. With no PA's on those R7/R9 cars, i'm sure there were many a Wall St. worker unknowingly riding to midtown.
The KK route was publicized, IIRC. There were handouts distributed by the TA; in fact, I still have a brochure outlining service changes effective July 1, and the KK routing was on the back of it, all by itself. I saw a KK train once, along 6th Ave., but it was on a different date. My mother and I went into the city on July 1 to meet my aunt at LGA. She was going to see some sort of summer opera production at the Met and stayed at a hotel by Lincoln Center. She doesn't know why she didn't opt to stay with us; we would have gladly put her up. Since we were going to meet again the next day, we left her at the hotel and headed up to the Bronx on a D of R-32s to a yarn store my mother used to frequent. After a bite to eat, it was back to Port Authority and a bus ride home. It was brutally hot that day.
what will the north b, and d be running fleetwise?
R68n/A's from Concourse Yard, I guess.
I was on a Q train the other day going into Manhattan over the Bridge. Another Q train bound for Brooklyn passed by, and I got to see 2 or 3 ends of the cars on that train of 40-slants with the diamond Q on the sign. What, if anything, does it cover? I'm guessing "Broadway D" since it is right next to "Broadway Q Circle" and is now virtually useless. It couldn't be "JFK Express" because it's too far away. V and W will come online within the next year hopefully. I guess that's it, "Broadway D." Maybe it's a new rollsign, maybe not.
I saw one today with all the sides displaying the diamond (and the end had the circle. I don't know if the sides were pasteovers, but the end wasn't. The end was probably not new, because it was in the Akzidenz font, while the diamonds used Helvetica (Which the MTA seems to be going back to. Even the # board on the new cars are Helv.)
Here it is-
Shuttle buses replace service between Main St and Willets Point
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Apr 21 to 23, 28 to 30 & May 12 to 14
Transfer between the shuttle bus and 7 at Willets Point.
Ask for a free transfer when when you pay your bus fare or leave the subway, even if you use MetroCard. Station Shuttle Bus Stop
Main St on 39 Av between Main and Prince Sts
Willets Point in front of Shea Stadium subway entrance
---
I'm going to take the 7 tomorrow, will update you'all on how things went down in Flushing.
I'm prepared to hoof it, those shuttle buses are going to be so packed there probably won't be any room to breathe.
Shuttle buses replace service between Main St and Willets Point
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Apr 21 to 23, 28 to 30 & May 12 to 14
I'm prepared to hoof it, those shuttle buses are going to be so packed there probably won't be any room to breathe.
It's too bad that some arrangement can't be made to run extra LIRR service between Woodside and Flushing Main Street at regular subway fares. After all, both the LIRR and NYCT are under the MTA umbrella. But I guess that's asking too much of politicians and bureaucrats.
The buses are going to be use is the Orion5 Suburbans out of CS. Not only that. It's going to be a Real Problem since the Orion Suburbans have 2X2 Seats. My best avice is to wait for a Empty one to come so like that you could have a seat.
SS Orion5 #110
I don't know where you heard that from, I saw no suburbans on there. Almost entirely RTS's out of QV, and the extra Stengal yard was full of RTS's.
One of the greatest transit books written is the three part A History Of The New York Subway System,written by Joseph Cunningham & Leonard De Hart.
I just noticed a minor error in Part II Rapid Transit in Brooklyn. Pg 71 states that the "Last Lex" left from Bridge St to Eastern Parkway and return at 9PM on Oct 13th 1950. The date and time are correct, but the trip originated at Eastern Parkway, ran to Bridge-Jay St, and returned to Eastern Parkway.
This glitch aside, the book is a great reference for the history of transit in Brooklyn.
Why not install a moving conveyor belt type sidewalk between Court Square and 23 Ely similar to what they have at airports? The passageway is wide enough for it and it probably wouldn't cost that much and could be built in a relatively short time. That might make the 750 foot trek much more be bearable for G riders.
It appears we were on the same track... See my previous post.
Why not install a moving conveyor belt type sidewalk between Court Square and 23 Ely similar to what they have at airports? The passageway is wide enough for it and it probably wouldn't cost that much and could be built in a relatively short time. That might make the 750 foot trek much more be bearable for G riders.
It probably would cost five times what a similar-sized one at an airport would, and would take at least two years to install.
(Why not install a moving conveyor belt type sidewalk between Court Square and 23 Ely similar to what they have at airports? The passageway is wide enough for it and it probably wouldn't cost that much and could be built in a relatively short time. That might make the 750 foot trek much more be bearable for G riders.)
(It probably would cost five times what a similar-sized one at an arport would, and would take at least two years to install.)
Besides, contractors and riders abuse the NYCT and its facilities. Look at what is going on with the escalators. Can't keep 'em running.
How about recruiting volunteers, "candystripers" or maybe even prison inmates looking for credit for good behavior?
We could have them manning wheelchairs. As soon as you get off the G, somebody hands you a complimentary Coke, sits you in a wheelchair and rolls you in a sprint over to the other station.
OK, maybe not.
(How about recruiting volunteers, "candystripers" or maybe even prison inmates looking for credit for good behavior? We could have them manning wheelchairs. As soon as you get off the G, somebody hands you a complimentary Coke, sits you in a wheelchair and rolls you in a sprint over to the other station. OK, maybe not.)
Reminds me of a form of transit I saw in some pictures of Coney Island.
I think the interesting thing here is that the TA plan assumes that Manhattan is THE transit destination, but G line protesters are claiming that outer-borough to outer-borough travel is of increasing importance. That is an interesting development if true. The G line was planned when there was a lot of industrial employment along its route. Perhaps other employment is finally moving in.
I think the interesting thing here is that the TA plan assumes that Manhattan is THE transit destination, but G line protesters are claiming that outer-borough to outer-borough travel is of increasing importance. That is an interesting development if true. The G line was planned when there was a lot of industrial employment along its route. Perhaps other employment is finally moving in.
I suppose the Census results will shed some light on this. It does sound a bit dubious to me, if for no other reason that there hasn't been much commercial or industrial construction in the outer boroughs (though more efficient use of the existing stock could help).
Besides, contractors and riders abuse the NYCT and its facilities. Look at what is going on with the escalators. Can't keep 'em running.
The escalators that the TA installed at the Main St - Flushing station came from England. It took the manufacturer several tries to get motors that worked on North American electrical power. It also means that no spare parts are available locally. Everything must be ordered from across the pond. If the NYCT wants to find scapegoats for their poor maintenance record, they should start by looking in a mirror.
"The escalators that the TA installed at the Main St - Flushing station came from England. It took the manufacturer several tries
to get motors that worked on North American electrical power. It also means that no spare parts are available locally.
Everything must be ordered from across the pond. If the NYCT wants to find scapegoats for their poor maintenance record,
they should start by looking in a mirror."
As you've done before, you point fingers and blame without laying out what the alternatives were, why the English manufacturer was chosen, that in fact there are no US suppliers or US plants to this manufacturer, etc. Maybe this was strictly political, and maybe it wasn't.
I'm not saying you're wrong here. But lay out out your logic, all your supporting evidence, tell us about the alternative and why MTA didn't choose it - and then open fire.
The escalators that the TA installed at the Main St - Flushing station came from England. It took the manufacturer several tries to get motors that worked on North American electrical power. It also means that no spare parts are available locally.
Everything must be ordered from across the pond. If the NYCT wants to find scapegoats for their poor maintenance record, they should start by looking in a mirror.
As you've done before, you point fingers and blame without laying out what the alternatives were, why the English manufacturer was chosen, that in fact there are no US suppliers or US plants to this manufacturer, etc. Maybe this was strictly political, and maybe it wasn't.
I would be very surprised if the decision to use the British escalators could be justified. It's not as if escalators are some exotic new technology and are difficult to obtain. Any two-level shopping mall in the country - and we're probably talking a couple thousand at least - has multiple escalators. Surely they've found U.S.-based suppliers with adequate parts availability.
Perhaps the MTA was legally forced to use the British supplier because it was the low bidder.
There are dozens of laws on the books, most put there by unions and businesses with clout in Albany, that make it difficult to get fair value when purchasing. I'm telling you, the state legislature is the root of all evil. How convenient that they have an "unaccountable" MTA and "unaccountable" Board of Education to use to distract blame from themselves.
Perhaps the MTA was legally forced to use the British [escalator] supplier because it was the low bidder
Could be, but there's probably a loophole in the bidding statutes that allow the rejection of a low bidder if the agency determines that it won't be able to fulfill the contract terms in a reasonable manner. Maintenance of inadequate spare-parts inventories in the United States probably would be an example of this.
I'm telling you, the state legislature is the root of all evil.
The state legislature reflects the ignorance and inattention of the electorate. I tried a stint at grassroots electoral politics more than three decades ago. P.T. Barnum was right.
There is another corollary. These legislators hire less able people than themselves to staff these agencies.
The MTA should have all OTIS escalators and elevators shoud they?
They could install a moving sidewalk and escalator in one from KONE A Elevator and escalator manufacture the moving sidewalk was ment to make you walk faster so the escalator but things that move are cool!
[Besides, contractors and riders abuse the NYCT and its facilities. Look at what is going on with the escalators. Can't keep 'em running.]
According to what someone said here once, a lot of those escalators get stuck because kids hit the off button. Now why they can't sound an alarm and have an attendant turn them on again, using video monitors and remote control if necessary, is beyond me. Anyway, I've never noticed any evidence of real abuse or sabotage in the stuck escalators I've seen, unless you count the time the TA "renovated" the escalators in the 4th Street station and couldn't get them running again for months . . .
According to what someone said here once, a lot of those escalators get stuck because kids hit the off button.
The canine companion animal orally consumed my extracurricular academic assignment.
[The canine companion animal orally consumed my extracurricular academic assignment.]
LOL
Well, either way, the problem is ludicrous -- stores keep their escalators running just fine.
No even better how about a schindler moving sidewalk regan natinol airport uses that type
Why not a moving walk from KONE?
…as long as it’s built like a tank!
I have seen two versions of the sidewalk:
a) What appears to be a continuous belt (feels somewhat springy underfoot)
b) Separate treads, like a horizontal escalator
Personally, I would bet that b is sturdier in the long haul and probably easier to maintain. I assume that it’s easier to replace a single wearing tread than to have to remould the join in the belt.
Is there an escalator/moving sidewalk expert lurking out there with information? Does anyone have references to websites with information?
John.
heypaul is our resident expert, but he hasn't posted here in a while. You might try asking this question on the Yahoo club "elevatortalk", which he founded. My guess is that the single tread is actually a bigger maintenance headache in the long run, due to a significant increase in the number of complex moving parts, but that's just speculation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're all wrong--the MTA won't put in anything that it absolutely doesn't need to if it has to pay for it. So why not use an asset the subways already have?
Hire a few rat trainers, capture a couple hundred of the largest rats (from 59th/Lex) and line them up at either end of the passage. Each passenger gets on a rat and the rat trainer fires a piece of garbage at high speed down the passage. The rat, sensing the garbage, follows it at top speed, taking along up to eight passengers at once (with luggage).
Dan
I've only seen such rats on the Brooklyn-bound L track at 6th Ave. Perhaps your idea should instead first be tried in that 14th St. pedestrian tunnel. It would be less commuting for them. ; )
LOL
I think there's a plan to generate power by harnessing those rats that dart in and out of the holes at the #7 station at Times Square. What are they doing, anyway? They always seem so frenetic, as if their turf has been invaded by a cat.
Sounds strange.
Sounds strange.
PLUS HOW COULD A PASSENGER GET ON A RAT? THE PASSENGER WOULD SQUISH IT IF THEY SIT ON IT!
Obviously you fail to understand his sense of humor :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Why not install a moving conveyor belt type sidewalk between Court Sq and 23 St-Ely similar to what they have at airport?... That might make the 750-foot trek much more bearable for G riders.]
A couple of thoughts...
1. I seem to remember a moving sidewalk, about 750 feet long (one Manhattan-style "avenue" block), at the Bloor-Spadina transfer station in Toronto.
2. I'd love to see the 42nd Street Shuttle slabbed over and converted to moving sidewalks. Each would be about 750 feet long, with breaks at Sixth Avenue (for transfers) and Fifth Avenue (for entry/exit). The current Shuttle cars and crews could easily be used elsewhere.
I don't remember any moving side walk at Bloor-Spadina, was this inside or outside fare control?
The 42nd Street Shuttle is my favorite line. I'd rather see it kept as it is. Besides, that would only increase the time it takes to get to the other end of the line. Using the moving side walks at Hartsfield as a reference, it would take about 3-5 mintues to walk it. The 42 St. shuttle only takes less than two.
Using the moving side walks at Hartsfield as a reference, it would take about 3-5 mintues to walk it. The 42 St. shuttle only takes less than two.
You're neglecting a very important fact here. Trains have headways. Moving sidewalks do not.
The headway on the shuttle can be as short as 2 minutes at peak times, and as long as 10 just after it opens and before it closes.
Not that I think the shuttle should necessarily be converted to a moving sidewalk, but there is the potential for throughput increase.
Mark
That's a good idea. The airport in Pittsburgh makes very good use of them.
For those who have trouble walking, it would be good for the 6th/7th Ave. 14th St. station to have them also. I guess that passageway might be too narrow to handle them, though.
LOGAN AIRPORT NEEDS MOVING SIDEWALKS!
The have NO moving sidewalks but they are doing work on the airport to have a moving sidewalk!
Except that it would be broken much of the time anyway. Even the ones in airports - heavily used, but without vandalism problems as a general rule - are out of service an annoying percentage of the time. Now imagine ones in a subway environment, with some people wanting to run, some people wanting to walk, some wanting to ride, and punks who think it's cool to run against the direction of travel or who push the stop buttons just for the heck of it. In simple terms - fuhgeddaboutit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As the new stadiums are constructed in South Philly, does anyone know of plans to extend transit to the area? The current Pattison Station is right next to Veterans Stadium, and a block from the F U Center. The new stadiums, however, will be several blocks to the East. How should they be reached? Just by walking on the surface, by an eastward jog to a new subway station, or by a slidewalk? Also, I was not aware until I attended the 76ers game against Chicago on Wednesday that Lots of people actually Park and Ride at Pattison, from Delaware County and State, and from across the Whitman Bridge. I think I heard that it is about $5 a day; much less than in CC. I had always assumed that if someone were to actually drive into the city limits, they would continue all the way into CC, and not switch to transit for the last leg of the journey; however the junction of 95 and 76 would generate a lot of traffic...
...and a block from the F U Center.
You might not like what goes on here, but there's no need for profanity.
Well, it won't be First Union Center much longer now anyway... Get ready for Wachovia Center or some sillyness like that.
No, it will remain First Union Center - according to a friend who works for Wachovia in NC, the Wachovia name will be the one to disappear.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which is a pity. Wachovia National Bank has much more resonance than First Union (and also I dealt with them when I first came to the USA in 1983).
Sic transit gloria mundi.
John.
The article in Tuesday's Inquirer said the name would change to Wachovia.
I wonder what this means for the C*O*O*L SD40-2's that carry First Union's FURX reporting marks.
Well, won't be the first time the Inkie was wrong... our friend in NC works in Wachovia's real estate department and her group has been given the responsibility of arranging for the removal of the Wachovia signs at the banks and replacing them with First Union ones...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That sounds pretty convincing to me.
Interestingly, a 7/8-page ad appeared in the Baltimore Sun today, signed by both the CEO's of Wachovia and First Union. The ad states the name of the combined company will be Wachovia.
A similar ad was in the Asbury Park Press today, so I called our friend in North Carolina this evening. She confirms that, and tells me that apparently both real estate groups were asked to prepare for sign changes since a final decision on the name wasn't made until the very last minute. In a way, I'm not surprised at the decision to use the Wachovia name, since First Union has a very poor reputation among consumers in many places.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
re First Union's acquisition of Wachovia
The article in Tuesday's Inquirer said the name would change to Wachovia.
It wouldn't be an unprecedented move for the acquiring company to drop its own name in favor of the target's. This is what happened a few years ago when Norwest Bank acquired Wells Fargo. Company executives and, presumably, outside "naming" consultants realized that Wells Fargo was a famous name, while Norwest was rather generic and undistinguished, so it was the former name that was kept on for the combined company.
In the present case, Wachovia is distinctive-sounding and just enough unusual for people to take notice, even if it lacks Wells Fargo's history, while First Union, like Norwest, is a bit on the generic side. Using Wachovia for the new entity might be a smart move.
It wouldn't be an unprecedented move for the acquiring company to drop its own name in favor of the target's.
In 1988 the D&RGW's owner (Rio Grande Industries) bought Southern Pacific and kept the Espee name, which subsequently disappeared when UP bought it out.
Doesn't matter who takes over whom or what they name the resulting entity. Get ready for higher fees and poorer service either way.
God Bless America.
Can the service get much worse than it already was at First Union? Our younger daughter had an account there for three years and we constantly had problems with them - once, they charged her a $29 fee for "uncollected funds" because she wrote a check the same day she made a CASH deposit (that was then deposited that same day by a local business) and the cash wasn't considered "collected" until the next day. We got it reversed, but only after a lot of screaming.
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
How about losing an account for three years and then sending a notice to the deceased about it. Happened with my late mother. When she died, we thought we had found all the various First Union and other accounts. We closed all the ones we knew about (I was on all of them), and now we have discovered several more investment accounts and the "lost" First Union one. That one had my name on it, so it was promptly closed. We shall see if Wachovia + First Union is any better.
I've read that long ago there was an ambitious plan to extend the Broad Street Subway south from Pattison, underneath the Delaware River, to National Park, New Jersey. Of course, it never happened for the usual reasons. But if so many people really are driving in from Jersey and using the Broad Street Subway at Pattison, could such an extension still be a good idea? It seems to me like it would ease traffic on the bridges.
I'm not asking if it would ever relly happen, mind you, the world being as it is. I'm just wondering if this would be a good project in a fantasy world where the usual practical obstacles don't exist.
Mark
I think the bridges, rather than being too overcrowded, make too much money.
I've read that long ago there was an ambitious plan to extend the Broad Street Subway south from Pattison, underneath the Delaware River, to National Park, New Jersey. Of course, it never happened for the usual reasons. But if so many people really are driving in from Jersey and using the Broad Street Subway at Pattison, could such an extension still be a good idea? It seems to me like it would ease traffic on the bridges.
I'm not asking if it would ever relly happen, mind you, the world being as it is. I'm just wondering if this would be a good project in a fantasy world where the usual practical obstacles don't exist. Any thoughts?
Mark
And let me know if this loads properly!!
Didn't work on my browser.
:-) Andrew
Tell us your Yahoo! ID, and we can find the pic manually.
I tried all three of my browsers Netscape, Internet Explorer and Opera and the image did not come up.
BMTJeff
You truly wasted your time. Has there ever been a situation in which a simple image worked in one browser but not another?
Yes there has been a time when an image has worked in one browser and not another. It doesn't happen often but on occasion it does.
BMTJeff
Must have been a coincidence.
If the image was shockwave or something, then I think it might matter.
It is entirely possible that it was a coincidence that the picture came up on one browser but not on another.
BMTJeff
Yes -- if one of the browsers has image loading turned off (or one of the browsers is Lynx without an external image viewer set up).
(not that this has anything to do with the issue at hand)
Just tell us what it is.
A pic of the boarded up main entrance at Stillwell... :(
I'm posting this because this board has more people than BusTalk.
If you answered YES to the above question, then please e-mail me at boarshevik@yahoo.com. More specifically I'm looking for old routes and companies. MANHATTAN preferred. Before 1940 also preferred.
No need to continue this thread, please use e-mail.
Here are some tips befor riding the metro
1. If the Screens in the station don't display anything and a train is coming check the front and side of the train to find the terminal And the color of the line.
2.make shure you know what type it is like if i wanted to ride a breda car I would look near the seats for the brown bar on it or for a rohr car look for the silver rohr car sticker and look for the stainless steel bar on the seats on the breda cars if you want to see who its made by head back in the cab area
3. make shure to keep a map its really handy.
ENJOY THE SUBTALK TRIP!!!!
Most of the cars from both manufacturers have that silver plate. The only difference is that on the Rohrs, it says its an original car. The Bredas just say 25th anniversary.
BTW: Check out my post with our report.
And no, I didn't get the Amtrak stuff. No time.
This is definitely a dumb question, but I really don't know:
What does GO stand for?
"General Order" (Odor?) ... and don't feel out of it asking that - all the answers you need to the mystique can be found on the main web site, http://www.nycsubway.org ... basically, it means the MTA is screwing up service somewhere "for the good of the many vs. the needs of the few." Emphasis on "Crewing up service" ...
And before the MTA wigs climb up my butt for bad attitude, check it out, I'm former PEF ... I was a cock teaser on the Paturkey farm in Smallbany, so off my butt. :)
BIG front page spread into day's TH-Record..The MTA is allocating $122 MILLION for inprovements on the Metro-North West of Hudson services [i.e. Port Jervis/Pascack Valley].With a BIG picture of Pataki glad-handing a NJT conductor at Spring Valley or someplace. The bulk of the money wil spent on 65 BRAND NEW rail cars to replace the ENTIRE current fleet and then some. There also be service additions,Parking lot improvements, etc.; and MN will be giving money to NJT for some signaling and other physical improvements. The whole story is at: www.th-record.com ...you dont think that his might be POLITICAL, do ya? [I ALSO wonder how much trouble they took to find an African-American conductor for Pataki to shake hands with.....I know ALWAYS the cynic!]The new cars,BTW, are being built by whomever is now working out of the old Hornell shops,and are actually an add-on to a NJT order [SURPRISE].
BIG front page spread into day's TH-Record..The MTA is allocating $122 MILLION for inprovements on the Metro-North West of Hudson services [i.e. Port Jervis/Pascack Valley].
Are there any plans for weekend service on Pascack Valley?
Good question...I wish they would add a PJ Line train in the afternoon on Sat/Sun,and adjust that other one that leaves Hoboken at 6:4something-perhaps one that leaves at 5:45..then maybe 7:00...Most of the 'additional service' on the Port line will probably be in the form of making all PJ Line trains express to/from Suffern,and making certain peak trains express south of HARRIMAN...I went down yesterday on the train that gets in Hoboken at 8:55,and I was AMAZED how crowded it was by Harriman...THAT run could use an extra car, as could the 4:50 out of Hoboken [gets folks to Harriman by 5:45..] was told by a regular that there actually sometimes STANDEES on that train...
The article was emphasizing "commuters", so I doubt weekend service on the Pacack, or even more on the Port Jervis. I wonder if Shortline is going to lay on the floor on their stomach and start screaming and kicking like Lakeland when MTA pulls this off with Secaucus.
In the early 1900's, the BRT operated a number of 10 Bench Open Trolley's.
Does anybody have any idea as to the paint & lettering colors used on these cars, as well as the numbering series of the cars.
Any help would be appreciated!.
I can't put my hands on info right away as to color. Maybe you could look at 4573 at Branford, but that's a convertible car, not an open bench.
As to numbers, this photo shows an open bench BRT car c.1910. You can see the car is 744. This picture from Bryan Cooper depicts his granddad, the gent standing on the platform near the controls. We've been trying to guess the location. I've thought it might be adjacent to W5 barn in Coney Island, possibly being a car preparing for one of the summer runs via Culver. Anyone have a guess?
This cover on rapidtransit.net also depicts a car such as you're looking for. Number seems to 818(?) but since this is an illustration not a photo, can't take this as definitive.
I think they were the BRT Red and Cream
Then 4573 at Shoreline (Branford), and 4547 at Seashore (Kennebunport) would be in those colors. Both convertables vs. bench.
Mr t__:^)
I know how the trains on metros are quiet they have welded track or they are rubber tired metros
Oh, that's the secret!! That's brillant! Forget stations, or a population to use it, what you suggested is all you need. If I were were you, I'd tell as very few people as possible, then you should sell this revolutionary idea to various transit systems and make a mad amount of profit.
Hi,
Hoping I can get some help from transit experts here ...
My mother is coming to visit me in Manhattan, and we are going to make a "pilgrimage" to Sheepshead Bay, where we lived when I was born.
My problem is that my mother is highly claustrophobic - usually won't ride elevators, subways etc. She knows she may have to take a bit of a subway ride to get to Nostrand and Ave. U if we don't want to spend the whole day on the bus. We will get ourselves to the Bkln Bridge by taxi, and then walk over the bridge. At night, after lobster at Lundy's, we will probably take a car service all the way back to midtown Manhattan.
My question:
Since my mom is okay with aboveground rail travel, I'm trying to plot a route from somewhere nearish to the Bkln Bridge to Nostrand and U. At first, I thought we would do the D train, and then walk/bus to Nostrand from the Ave. U stop. But I'm not sure when the D train emerges and starts making its aboveground route. Anyone know?
I'm also looking at the 2 or the 5 to their termination at Ave H, and then continuing on the B44 bus. But I have no idea if, or where, the 2 or 5 go aboveground.
And lastly, I have looked at the B25 or B26 bus from downtown Brooklyn to Nostrand, and then transferring to the B44 bus, taking it all the way down to Ave U. ..... But as a Type A New Yorker, I don't want to go insane sitting on a bus for two hours or something. Anyone know approx. how long this trip would take on a weekday afternoon?
Any tips would be most appreciated, as I know I'm not going to be able to ride these routes to figure out which is best, and - more important for my mom - how much of the trip is aboveground.
I just know that some enthusiast out there will be able to help me.
Thanks,
caroline
If you want to get there quickly, I recommend the D train. The 2/5 do not go aboveground at all in Brooklyn. The D comes out after a few stops underground, not more than 4 or 5.
Buses may be the best way to go, especially if she really hates the subway. You can't avoid being underground for at least part of the journey unless you take a bus to the train.
Dan
The 2 & 5 don't go above-ground at all in Brooklyn.
The D emerges at Prospect Park.
I am guessing that taking a bus from Downtown Brooklyn and Nostrand/U would take around 2 hours, including waiting time.
I assume you have already figured out how to get to the D from the Brooklyn Bridge.
I am guessing that taking a bus from Downtown Brooklyn and Nostrand/U would take around 2 hours, including waiting time.
Not really, I've done it before.
I once took the B41 (don't remember if Limited) from Adams St. to about Flatlands, during PM rush. IIRC, that alone was an hour, and I had caught the bus right away.
How long did your trip take?
GoodDaughter: Call the MTA Travel Info Line at (718) 330-1234. Tell them about what time you plan to catch the bus, and they will give you a travel time estimate. The trip will be at least that long. You should factor in the waiting time for the two buses on top of that.
The longest I rode was from Cadman (definitely limited) to Ralph Avenue (BB Branch). I don't know how long it took, but it was probably around an hour.
The B44 transfer should add time, but the B44 limited is pretty fast (for a bus) south of Flatbush Junction.
And while this person can take any B41 bus, she MUST take the B44 Limited at Flatbush/Nostrand, because the local ends at Avenue U.
The 2 and 5 never go above ground. The D/Q surfaces just north of Prospect Park. The D also runs over the Manhattan Bridge.
The best way is to avoid the subway. Take the stairs off of the bridge walkway which lead to Washington Street, turn right, Washington becomes Cadman Plaza East. The B41 begins a few blocks away at Tillary Street. Then, take the B41 LIMITED bus (there's a card that says that in the front windshield) to Nostrand/Flatbush and change to the B44 there.
Well I took the 7 from Willets point today. I walked along Roosevelt avenue for what seemed like quite a distance. The walk from main street took about 15 minutes and that's with walking fast. I guess it just didn't seem like much of a distance from the train. Also not crazya bout walking through that area. A few packed (and I mean packed)shuttle buses (mostly RTS's from QV) passed.
The shuttle buses dropped and picked up in the Shea Stadium parking lots. From what I could see it looked like quite a mob scene over there.
Only a single track out of Willets point where trains came in.
Going back I simply avoided the mess by taking an F to Briarwood/Van Wyck and a Q20 to Flushing.
I actually stopped off in Forest Hills, I never realized the bustling town of trendy shops that lies between the 71/Cont and LIRR stations. They got alot more shopping than Flushing, but there isn't any mystical stores there.
In Flushing they were picking up people on 39th ave between Main and Prince. Buses couldn't seem to move fast enough, as soon as they filled up, one left and another got loaded.
Also the traffic on Main was a nightmere, I saw several packed shuttle buses waiting to discharge pax.
And to think two more weekends of this. Well I think the best way around it is Q20A/B to Briarwood/Van Wick to catch an F. I'd rather try to avoid being squashed in one of those shuttle buses. Wow, they sure looked crowded. Forget about any breathing room!
I'm back home now and am now reporting on the day's events.
I took Rohr 1221 from Friendship Heights to Union Station. When I got to gate G, Rob from Atlanta was already there. Within the next twenty minutes, we were joined by Dan Lawrence and Ken LaCapria. With the arrival of train 79 (20 minutes late at 10:10), we were joined by Eric Smith (E_DOG), Alan Braunstien (faxman), and Alan Schneider. (If I got your names wrong, let me know!)
We then headed down to the Metro and bought day passes for those who hadn't done so already. Then it was down to the platform to watch a train pull out. Within moments, another one came in but stood at the station for some time. The lead car was Breda 3286. They were doing single tracking north of the station. We passed the Brentwood Shops and saw a single car with feelers. Does anyone know the unit number? It was a Rohr with the roll signs (rolled to Special). I think it was formerly 1028.
At Fort Totten, we paused for a group picture:
From left to right: Oren H. (WMATAGMOAGH), Dan Hirsch (no handle), Dan Lawrence, Jonathan Hirsch (no handle), Ken LaCapria, Alan Schneider, Rob from Atlanta, and Eric Smith (E_DOG). Faxman (Alan B) is behind the camera.
After taking the shot, we proceeded to the lower level and took the green line to Greenbelt. This was my second time on this branch. It was very scenic. Alan S. pointed out what was formerly Lake Metro but was since renamed. We were on Breda 3070 for this run.
At Greenbelt we walked back to the other end and boarded Breda 4040. We doubled back to Fort Totten, then proceeded to take the green line all the way to Branch Avenue. This incorporated the two newest segments of track, Columbia Heights and Branch Avenue. Branch Avenue hasn't changed much. You can still tell those are new stations. By this time, most of us were hungry so it was back on the green line to L'Enfant Plaza on Breda 3070. Then, Breda 4011 took us across the Fenwick bridge to Pentagon City for lunch.
After eating and talking, we proceeded to the yellow line trains to Huntington. At this time, Dan H. parted from the group. We boarded 4039 and went from Pentagon City to Huntington. At Huntington, we rode and got photos of the elevator there for ElevatorTalk. Then to the other end of the train to double back to King Street. This was the only unit number I didn't record but it was a 4000 series. I took a photo of the train car we rode so maybe I can catch the number when its developed.
We passed up on the blue line across the platform so we could have the railfan window. This was built into our schedule so we had time. The lead car on the train was Breda 2072. Alan S. pointed out the Northern-Suffolk Piggyback yard at Van Dorn Street. Then, just before Franconia-Springfield, the train came to an abrupt stop. A door sensor wasn't working so the T/O soon started making announcements telling people not to lean against the doors. After doing this three times, she got up and started walking through the train to find the open door. When she didn't find one, she came back and made the announcement again. We soon were on our way again, I do not know how we got started, but the train was taken out of service upon our arrival at Franconia-Springfield. It was another few minutes until a Rohr train pulled in. The middle cars, 1100 and 1101 did not have the AC marker under the number plate. We are still wondering if these two cars do not have AC motors. Dan Lawrence, who noticed this, asked the T/O if they had the AC motors but she replied she was too busy or something to that effect.
The Rohr train, led by 1204, left after a very fast relay at Franconia-Springfield. We had the same T/O as before and we believe we had the same run number meaning that WMATA "relayed the line." Dwell times were short the whole way to Rosslyn. We saw two trains we believe to be put ins from Alexandria because of the delay and the gap train that had been at National Airport was now gone. There were no large crowds at most stations so clearly, gap trains were added. Ken LaCapria departed from the group at the National Airport station.
At Rosslyn, we took Breda 3289 to Vienna. Just before West Falls Church, Alan S. pointed out what he believes to be the start of the Dulles line: a pier between the two tracks. He showed us the other evidence on the return trip, led by Breda 3128. The fence just east of West Falls Church is curved out for a flyover to go over the Vienna tracks.
At Metro Center, we decided to make a pit stop to get some photography of the upper level. At this point, Alan S. left us. The group was now Rob from Atlanta, Alan B., Dan L., Eric, Jonathan, and me. We went back downstairs and caught Breda 4049 to go to New Carrollton. At Deanwood, the T/O asked us if we wanted to photograph the cab (I guess he realized I was photographing just about every station). At the next stop, Cheverly, he let us take photos of me and Jonathan at the console as well as just the console itself. It was very cool. I got to see some controls I normally don't get to see.
We arrived at Vienna and Rob from Atlanta headed back to the airport. Then the rest of us went to the waiting room at New Carrolton and had a chat. Jonathan and I then headed home, Dan headed to Baltimore, and Eric and Alan waited for train 148 heading north.
Breda 3019 and 2034 took us from New Carrollton to Metro Center and from there to home. Uneventful trip home except the Caps fans were all on board (HOW DID THEY LOSE???)
Hope some of the others who came post. Some digital photography was done today, we will see when those shots are put online.
Thanks to all who came out and very nice meeting you!
So Did you get to see the CAF cars that you really really really wanna see?
Sorry I missed it, but the interview was very important to me, maybe in the summer when Sea Beach Fred gets here in August
And then I won't be around. E-mail me, we can talk further...
Not in service yet.
If we saw them, we probably would have ridden them.
Check the WMATA website and check the press releses and then you will know when the new cars will be in service.
It isn't there. I check those releases on an almost daily basis. If I knew when they would start service, I would have posted.
A really great trip, everyone enjoyed themselves. I have e-mailed my digital shots to Oren, so they should be on his website, plus he may send a pics to Dave P. for inclusion here.
Those who said they would be coming and didn't for various reasons missed a great trip, and missed out on a side benefit: we all now know what we look like in person. Great bunch on the trip!!
I'll get them there. I spent most of last night and this morning in bed.
Great stuff.
Does anyone have photos of the elevator/inclinator at Huntington?
faxman took some photos and a QuickTime movie of it, he didn't email it to you?
I have them now...
Sounds like it was a great trip. Thanks to all for sharing.
I'm looking forward to the photos & "official" write up in the "Field Trip" section of this site.
Mr t__:^)
We arrived at Vienna and Rob from Atlanta headed back to the airport
Correction, I went with you guys all the way to New Carlorton, then I headed back to the airport.
As for the parts I did without the group, I rode the Red line from Gallery Place to Cleveland Park. I stopped at Smithsonian for a couple of minutes to check out the Mall, and I stopped at Pentagon to check out the tunnel provision more closely. I also got off at Pentagon to take a look at the building, and got a humorous photo out if it. I never went out to Addison Rd. My favorite station on the trip was Fort Totten, lower level, the double arch thing was awesome.
Here are my pictures. Yup, all four of them.
I had a really good time. This was my first time ever hanging out with railfans. The knowledge the group had was almost overwheming. Dan Lawrence is full of stories and information about nearly everything. Alan was very knowledgeable about Metro (You need to start posting here! You also, Ken!!). Dan Hirsch and Ken were really cool guys to talk with. Thanks for the photos you emailed us, faxman. THanks for the photo you took with my camera, E_DOG. THanks Oren for organizing the trip, you were a good guide. Nice meeting everyone.
My bad.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The picture of the bi-level stations appears to be Rosslyn.
I just heard on WINS 1010, that a Grafitti "Artist" was killed by a subway in all places in the tunnel.NYPD found paint by his side didnt get the infomation on what train and where.Will these people ever learn?
Has anyone heard from
SeveN ??
Having had track safety training, I can't understand why anyone would try to apply graffitti without a flagger. Let me tell you, it's a little scary down there, even with a couple of experts telling what to do and when to do it.
For what I heard two "G" trains hit him. He was wearing all black so the first T/O did not see him in the tunnel. He must have fell between the first train, and his body did not put the train brakes on. The second "G" thought he saw something on the tracks and tryed to stop, but he went over him by two cars. The TA figured out this by finding parts of the body down the track in front of the Second train. I was working on the "F", and was put on the "B" from 34th street to Stillwell Ave. Once more this is second hand news that I heard, I don't know if this is what happen or not.
On my second trip I did see a paint can still on the road bed and NYPD taking pitcher of it, so least one thing is right.
Robert
I feel for the unfortunate train operators that were involved. I hope they have no lasting ill-effects.
SEVEN is plenty Alive, I hope and pray for his family, and Being selfish I also hope and Pray that I don't know him. I have retired from transit graffiti a few Months ago, The reason for this is because my crew has been commissioned for several commercial jobs, including a big one in Miami in February which I told about, My latest sanction is at Phun Phactory Graffiti Museum in Hunters Point, Queens, Once again, I am alive (i know some may be disappointed) and I strongly discourage anyon t wander into Subway Tracks, They are dangerous, and not a playground, please dont let this happen to you. Keep the art a voice of the ghetto and please don't make it say the things our critics want to say. For the good of the art STAY ALIVE.
well said be well
thank you very much for understanding that kids will be kids.
thank you very much for understanding that kids will be kids.
You mean criminals will be criminals, don't you? The way I see it, that's one less inmate to be housed at the expense of honest, law-abiding citizens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
oh you know him personally?you know what kind of person this KID probably was? Its a hobby, a bad one and dangerous at that (thats why I quit Transit) What do you really know?
No, I don't know him, or her, as the case may be. What I do know is that this person was engaged in a criminal act which, if they had been caught, would have resulted in their becoming a guest of the taxpayers. By getting squished instead, they avoided that, and saved me and all the other honest taxpayers the cost of keeping them out of circulation for a while.
If they want to spraypaint a wall, let them buy their own wall, or at least get permission from the wall's owner. Otherwise, it's a criminal act, and I have no sympathy for them when they have to pay the consequences.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Uh huh, so a human life is worthless toyou, Thats why its Called corrections,If it was one of your family members, you'd be singing a different tune. Apparently a human life to you is worthless.
No, human life isn't worthless to me, it's just that I have a hard time being sympathetic with the criminal element. Obviouly this person's life wasn't worth anything to them or they wouldn't have been doing what they did where they did when they did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jeff;
You got a little to fancy with the HTML for my browser, which is diplaying nothing.
Tom
Sarge, What were you going to say in your post. Also, WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN., LONG TIME NO HEAR.
Right click on the page and go to "View Source" to read the message. It was a plea to stop the current argument going on on this thread.
You omitted the quotation marks after <"darkred">.
uh huh, so those people who were killed on Ocean Parkway by that Fucking Porche shouldn't have been taking Walks? I know this wasnt initiated as an accident (the graffiti) but you have to understand what its like, its an addiction, it becomes aa....never mind. By the way I know the people who were involved in the accident, The Lady (I will not Disclose names) used to work for my father and I knew her daughters that are now dead, I just urge everyone to Drive saftely and please never drink and drive, you put everyone at risk, Be careful everyone and God Bless
Artist is someone who creates a thing of beauty,something that people can be proud of this type of vandalism is no art when it's defacing private or transit property,where the term "grafitti artist" came from was some other vandal and the term stuck.....now put this type of expression in a art show that has all forms of expression then the one creating it is an artist,some of this work is very very good......in the proper prespective.does any of the vandals put this type of stuff on their own property,apartment,house whatever i don't think so as the parents will not allow it,so off to the local subway and spread it all over, the city's image still is one of grafitti in peoples mind thanks to a bunch of vandals.......
I doubt that life is cheap to Anon_E_Mouse or pretty much anyone else here. He's never given any indications that he feels that way. Perhaps you might bear some responsibility in this tragedy even if you don't know the person who met his untimely end. You, after all, have repeatedly come to this forum and made post after post that extolled the virtues of graffiti vandalism. Perhaps it was one of your posts that got this person interested in graffiti as a 'means of spreading the urban message'. Hmmmmmmm?
I really don't think that's fair since Seven never said "Young people, go out and tag the latest subway or subway tunnel!" On the other hand, Anon gave strong implications he really didn't care the person had died and in fact it was better they be dead than to cost Anon a few extra pennies to incarcerate him for a few months. It's not like that 8 cents or so won't be deducted for another purpose. But as long as it's not for a subway grafitti artist huh? Those scum, I bet tagging a subway is worse than murder?
I'm not excusing the tagger for his actions, but when you make blatantly inflammatory statements and comments like Anon did, it incites anger in some people. Maybe some are to pussyish to say anything, but I had to. People, what if this was someone YOU loved killed doing a petty crime. I don't think you'd want someone pissing all over them would you? But since I'm SOOOOOOOOO sure all of you have instilled the fear of god AND the law into them, it'll "NEEEEEEEEVER EEEEEEEVER" happen, huh? Well, they saying goes, never say never.
Didn't you know that anon is into devil worship, and of course those are the souls he claims :-)
Arti
I know Anon_E_Mouse personally, and I can vouch for him. What you said, Arti, wasn't very nice, :-) aside.
Sorry, 'twas just a joke.
Arti
Thou art forgiven.
I see you've changed your handle again, Jason. Let me make this extremely clear to you.
Any time you make public statements - and those statements glorify criminal behavior - and someone acts on those statements and engages in that criminal activity - and that person is arrested, injured or killed, you do bear some moral and ethical responsibility for the outcome.
Now, Jason, with what, exactly, do you disagree?
Train dude did I satisfy you with my proclimation of Responsibility? Because I can assure you I mean it, to me this is not a joke, not because its Graffiti but because its a life.
Seven, I appreciate your willingness to accept responsibility for the tragedy. (I'm not sure how the 2nd incident is involved) I just hope that you'll now tone down the rhetoric and join the rest of us in meaningful discussions.
Thank you for accepting this. The reason I joined Subtalk is to discuss Transit Issues, Please, everyone Understand that. Train Dude please Disreguard my "volkswagen" post it was meant to be sarcastic (bad humor?) Please accept my apology.
Thank you for accepting this. The reason I joined Subtalk is to discuss Transit Issues, Please, everyone Understand that.
What you should try to understand is that a forum comprised of transit buffs is just about the worst possible place to advocate graffiti.
Yes thank you I gathered this over time here
I've never changed it before. Anyway, TO ME, IN MY OPINION, it felt as if you were stating that SeveN should shoulder part of the blame for this. I felt that wasn't really fair. Also, I wish you'd stop talking to me as if I was stupid. I know we've had our share of problems, but I'm not some damn kid who needs stuff to be bolded and highlighted to get the message. I knew what you were saying the first time, and I responded accordingly.
Also, I feel that Anon's comments about a person's life shouldn't be taken lightly. You can repaint a wall, tunnel, or an R32, you can't bring back someone's life. This handle here is dedicated to someone who lost her life.
It's funny because I should be taking your stance in a way. She gave her life trying to keep a criminal act from being committed. It wasn't a petty one though. I posted about this handle on BusTalk, you can read about it there, or I can e-mail you the particulars. My point is no one deserves to die. Even if they do do wrong, unless it's criminal murder, and I'd prefer that person be tortured than killed. But for a petty crime like tagging, you should never say "they got what's coming to them."
can you e-mail the story to me please? Thanks in advance,
"You can repaint a wall, tunnel, or an R32, you can't bring back someone's life"
Thank you so much, thats the point im trying to get across.
I e-mailed you. I'm glad you got my point, I'm hoping someone else does too.
yes thank you
"You can repaint a wall, tunnel, or an R32, you can't bring back someone's life."
Jason, do you really think its about painting a tunnel wall or cleaning a subway car? It's about keeping people from from getting hurt. It's also about keeping the system from becoming graffiti covered again - leading to increased crime and a general perception that the system is unsafe again.
I am understanding all of that. I am not understanding why some people are equating lives (or losses there of) to tax dollars saved!
I do not have a problem with your stance against tagging. I just hate when people say barbaric stuff just to get attention and seem "hard" or "tough." They don't seem to understand the value of a life. Perhaps after they lose someone it will be like putting on a fresh pair of glasses.
[It's also about keeping the system from becoming graffiti covered again - leading to increased crime and a general perception that the system is unsafe again. ]
IMO that's not the point this time, it's unsafe practice, and like one poster compared it with bungee jumping, it's not, as it inflicts grief to unvoluntarily involved poeple (T/O-s.)
If one wants to get an adrenaline rush, socially responsible would be to leave others alone (slim chance, as most have realatives or others who care.)
Arti
>>>IMO that's not the point this time, it's unsafe practice, and like one poster compared it with bungee jumping, it's not, as it inflicts grief to unvoluntarily involved poeple (T/O-s.)<<<
Yes it could....
-The bungee instructor
-The pilot
-Anyone who saw
[-The bungee instructor
-The pilot ]
Voluntary participant.
[-Anyone who saw ]
Not really as they didn't cause anyone's death.
Think again!
Arti
>>>Voluntary participant.<<<
You say that as if they knew the jumper was going to die. Just like the TO, he had no idea. He was just doing his job. Are you calling the TOs voulntary participants now?
>>>Not really as they didn't cause anyone's death.<<<
So I take it if you you saw someone murdered in the street or killed, you would feel nothing?
[You say that as if they knew the jumper was going to die. Just like the TO, he had no idea. He was just doing his job. Are you calling the TOs voulntary participants now? ]
No, but they knew that it's a high risk sport. T/O is not in that cathegory.
[So I take it if you you saw someone murdered in the street or killed, you would feel nothing? ]
There's a difference being a cause of death and witnessing it. BTW I've been in combat.
Arti
Trust me, these two incidents that happened this week where im involved have taken a toll on me. Train Dude, I do feel responsible for this in a way and these times are not easy for me, you dont have to boast grief into me, I already feel it thank you very much.
Deceased identified as Hector Ramirez, no age given in Sunday Times article.
Looks like MTA is in trouble.
BTW sorry to say that.
Arti
NY1 says Hector Ramírez was 29.
Subway graffiti is an example of an activity with a very skewed risk/reward scenario. There are no tangible rewards other than an "I did it" psychological boost. Even bragging to one's friends scarcely counts, as much of the tagging these days seems to take place in tunnels largely beyond public view (compare, say, to a building-side mural that the whole 'hood can see). But the risks, well, they surely are high - arrest and prosecution, or possible death.
The risk/reward ratio isn't quite that bizarre. Lemme explain:
The graffiti world is it's own sub culture. In order to achieve status in the culture though, you need to graffiti 'bomb (tag up a whole lot) as much as you can, and have artistic skills to boot. Thus, when someone goes 'all city' (tagged up everywhere), all their peers know who they are. the newbies look up to them. Some girls want to get with them. It's like being a rock star, except instead of MTV, there's "video graff' (a bunch of guys that videotape people bombing & circulate the tapes in the subculture.). Or maybe good olde' Trip over at www.tagpage.com will interview them.
It is a need to be accepted by a group that partially inspires the graffiti artist. To be a part of a group - similar to posting to a message board such as this one - people know who you are. they (more or less) accept you, and you go socialize with them. How many of you guys on this board have met each others? At least a good portionof the regulars...
This poor soul who died in the tunnel, (not to discount the trauma of the TO was that hit him/found him, etc) if he was indeed a graffiti artist (if he was, what was his tag? they always report this in the news, but not this time it seems)(There's lots of paint cans in tunnels - saying he had paint near him is like saying the 3rd rail was near him... of course it was!!!), was just trying to be a part of something.
You can argue left and right that maybe he should have tried to gain a sense of acceptance and achievement in a better way, but obviously, those more accepted ways either didn't interest him, or they were never pointed out to him...
Yes, that something is not legal or accepted by mainstream soicety, and is something that many dispise, hate, and do not care to understand (which is unfortuantely, as ignorance breeds hate), but it is no less tragic. It's sad for his family and friends, as well as for the motorperson who killed this character. Scooping up his body from the tracks is something I doubt any of the cops, firement, emts, etc who had to do it will soon forget. It's a sad event, all around.
These are the Words of The Joe.
G'night...
-Joe
Sound's like an initiation to an "organization."
So shall we all hail Sopranos?
Arti
I guess you could look at it that way... though the graffiti world isn't tightly organized though. There's small groups of writers who bomb together (gangs, I guess yee can call them), some independant folks who bomb on their own, and that's about it. Other than the folks doing the videos, Trip, and some other cats who put out an occasional magazine about it, there's not much in terms of structure, or any real way to get a damn good look into how the culture works (unless, of ycourse, you know someone in it, or were at one point yourself). Unless your really into it, you might not ever meet some of the more famous writers.
Now if only I could recall the shpeel that they have to recite when joining 'the family'.
Joe...
"Unless your really into it, you might not ever meet some of the more famous writers."
Unfortunately I do get to meet too many of you - the famous, the not so famous and the beginner. "Unfortunately", because when I do get to meet you, you usually have nothing to say.
When I was in Driver's Ed. they almost universally showed a film called "Unsafe At Any Speed". It showed in very graphic detail, the results of reckless driving. Perhaps the New York City Transit System should produce a film about the possible consequences from tagging. The only drawback is that it could only be shown before lunch.
hmmm...
what do you want them to say? to tell you odd stories or explain why they do what they do? Or talk about last nights' game? Maybe they just don't want to try to explain it to someone outside their loop?
One thing's for sure, I don't speak for all, or any of them. I speak for me, a one time writer who lives a nice, normal, respectable lifestyle in his old age... As such, I'll shead light on any question you can toss at me...
"what do you want them to say? to tell you odd stories or explain why they do what they do? Or talk about last nights' game? Maybe they just don't want to try to explain it to someone outside their loop? "
Duh !!!!! Like wow man. They ain't got nuttin to say, man - cause like when I meet 'em man THEY IS DEAD !!! USUALLY IN MORE THAN ONE PIECE - MOST TIMES NOT RECOGNIZABLE BUT MOST DEFINITELY DEAD!!!!!
Well, you may want to explicitly state that they are dead. By saying "they have nothing to say", you imply that they are alive, and you are asking them questions. Maybe I missed an earlier post of yours that would have made that clearer. If you are asking questions to a dead body, uhm... it might be time for some therapy! =)
I'm kidding, of course.
Not to sound like grandpa, but I think a whole lotta people here need to take a few minutes and calm down just a wee bit before posting (not just you, train dude - I'm singling no one out). I believe it is obvious to anyone thats reading these posts that I thought you were talking about real, live humans. Not corpses. I might have failed to pick up on that, but you didn't communicated it that well to begin with - so the misunderstand is both our blame. Nothing to get huffy about.
So, I'll ask this again. if these bodies were alive, what would you ask them? I might have a good approximation of what they'd say, and am willing to share it. I'm NOT going to offer any insight, however, if all anyone has to offer are rude remarks. (heh heh - "you must properly phrase it in the form of a question")
Let's try, hard as it may be, to all be adults here, shall we? Step back, calm down, and reply in a mature, respectible manner - and you'll get the same in return. Yes, it's touchy topic, and I'm sure finding dead bodies isn't exactly a cushy day at the office. (I tripped over one myself once - and I won't ever forget it).
Flaired tempers and arguements can be fun, but if anyone wants a pissing match with me reagarding this topic, I suggest you talk to the hand because I'm not going to waste my time, or anyone elses, replying to such items. I think we all have much more productive things to do with our day...
-Joe
Graffiti is such a rush, Its soo much better than any drug, than any arousal, than any orgasm, this virus i caught will remain with me for as long as I feel youth in my blood. Thank You Joe for posting this
Rehab for you I guess :-)
Arti
Rehab is for quitters.
har har har!
-joe
uh huh very funny, I already went thru rehab, its called commisioned murals
Graffiti is such a rush, Its soo much better than any drug, than any arousal, than any orgasm
Duh.
" Duh. " ????
He obviously doesn't understand the addiction side of it, though it's hard for many to recognize. Traditionally, people think of addictions as being drug related. In a broader sense, graffiti writing can be an addiction just like gambling, skydiving, etc. It's an adreneline rush. a 'Natural high', due to the danger. Read my other post about it, I think i explain it pretty well there...
-Joe
Yes you do thank you for being here, Its not that some of thse people do not understand, they DONT WANT to understand, let me ask you, did you enjoy writing in your day? what yrs?
Every moment of it, except (of course) the night I was nearly arrested. It's just dumb luck that they did a piss poor search on me. I 'learned the lesson' that night, as the thought of being arrested alone shook me out of the loop. It's a good thing too - as the gang violence intensified from there, and PD really started rounding everyone up after that.
I'm sure if I was caught that night, it would have been extremely difficult to get out of the 'scene'. I'd probably still be a crook today, and no one needs that. Not me, not the cops, and not the tax paying world...
Since then I went to college, got a job, pay my taxes, and am generally just like anyone else walking down the street. Hell, I barely even drink thee days. Old and boring. Yeeeeap.
I was only truely active during 90-91, after the subways were cleaned, but before the elevated stations were painted. (and no, i've neer etched a subway window, and think it looks pretty damn disgusting - I hope they're successful with keeping the R142 windows clean, and that it spreads to the rest of the fleet - better for looking out the window and checking out the tracks & tunnels). I dabbled in it since 89. Up until a few years ago though I'd paint in random, abandoned places, far from the streets, subways, or anyplace else that presented even the slightest chance of being caught. Only once in a blue moon though.
Do I suggest anyone even consider becoming an artist? Heck no. It's fun to create, but I can be just as creative with a camera, with a keboard, mouse, Flash, Photoshop & an html editor - and get paid a ton of money to do it.
That's my life story, and I'm sticking to it.
Joe
Do I suggest anyone even consider becoming an artist? Heck no. It's fun to create, but I can be just as creative with a camera, with a keyboard, mouse, Flash, Photoshop & an html editor - and get paid a ton of money to do it.
Agreed. And if the graffiti style suits you, you can do it that way without impinging on anyone else's rights, or running afoul of the law. My opposition to graffiti is due to the illegal aspect of it... paint that style where you have permission to and I'm okay with it, even if I don't happen to share your taste in art.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...no prob. A slightly cooler head had to prevail sooner or later.
You've just pointed out one of the other sides of the graffiti world - the fact that it very well can be an addiction. No, it's not like sticking needles in your veins, or running powder up your nose. Many a graffiti artst gets off on the high - the rush of energy that comes with knowing you might get caught, combined with the smell of the paint fumes (which I'm sure produces some kinda biological reaction that creates a 'high', though it's been a long while since them med classes I had years back).
It's no different than the buzz a cop gets chasing down a crook, or a firemen gets putting out a fire. The danger sets of an adeloine (SP) rush. The movie 'Heat' did a pretty good job of showing this from both sides of the fence.
What is still more twisted is that the 'punishment' for a graffiti artist is hardly punishment at all. I'm not sure what it's like today, but it used to be that first time offenders were sent to go do community service cleaning up subway stops or whereever - of course, the 20 or so kids made to work this detail were all graffiti artists, so it was a great chance to socialize with others from across the city. Many met up and bombed together later.
Sending them to jail didn't work either. Many bragged about it. Back then, you were not hard if you did not go to jail (I guess that's where I went wrong - ha ha!). Once inside, you'd probably meet other crooks. To them, you weren't hard if you weren't in there for beating someone up, shooting someone, etc - hence the need to be a bigger badass. Think of it as a potientally vicious cycle, though obviously a good portion never get caught up in it to that degree.
So what can be done?
I've always thought a few more legal places like the phun phactory would be good. (maybe I should get a permit there, relive my teen years a bit? ) Maybe have some decent spots opened in the subway where artists could get a permit to paint there. Charge ehm like $10 or something. The tourists would probably eat it up, and there'd be more money in the budget to line the dirty politicans pals pockets (har har har). In contrast, beef up the fines for people tagging places they have no permit to hit... Hitting people in the pocket always works. Though if they don't have the cash, the might have to mug someone... oh boy...
I ain't got all the answers, but then again, who does?
It all starts at home though... if parents ain't interested in what the kids are doing, they might just do something bad. A little guidance can go a long way.
Anyways:
I'm still wondering if this guy in the subway really was a writer though. I recall when Sane was killed, the media stated that he was arrested. Just because they print it, doesn't mean that it's true. No one seems to know what this guy's graffiti tag name was, and it just seems very strange to me that a 29 year old graffiti writer, who I would presume has graffitied tunnels before, would be careless enough to be hit by a train. It just doesn't fit. If he was 16, maybe. But 29? C'mon...
Its True, but with Advisement of thePolice to the Media, they don't post their Tag Names anymore because this gives them more of a publicity, and thats what writers look for, so yu know they dont want to feed them what they want.
Possibly... it just seems odd that no graffiti writers seem to have known who he was. When a writer I knew got killed (Seus - who was stabbed to death), everyone knew about it the next day...
He either wasn't a writer, or was one who didn't interact with any other writers much, if at all.
someone told me he is with VV (village Vandals) or some crap Like that, and this was like 10th person information, Im going to be at district 30 on Thursday and see If I could get some Inside info on this whole case and possibly his tag name from the outlines he had on him.
>>> that something is not legal or accepted by mainstream soicety, and is something that many dispise, hate, and do not care to understand (which is unfortuantely, as ignorance breeds hate) <<<
A very good post, Joe, but in this case I do not think it is so much ignorance that breeds the hate as much as the feeling that taggers are taking something away from the rest of us. After a few courses in sociology one can understand why some youths do such anti social things such as graffiti, breaking off automobile antennas, "keying" the sides of cars, stealing automobiles for joyriding, robbing liquor stores, and forming gangs to defend some "turf." Even with a good understanding of the causes of this behavior, and a belief that those causes should be addressed, the behavior itself is hated.
Tom
You're right. I was absolutely stretching my arguement there. I just wanted to point out that it's not quite so random an act of 'destruction' as some think it may be.
-Joe
Not just because of my present age but I also remember that neither myself nor any of my friends even considered crime nor vandalism when we were young. In some areas and I don't only mean inner cities bad youth are an epidemic.
If someone else already said so sorry for repeating; those who back up taggers by saying they have to express themselves should offer their own home or car for it.
I agree, but the same can be said about any other addicitions. Addiciton is a drain on our social system. Graffiti is not new and not secluded to NYC.It might be the mecca but many other world wide metropolitain areas are dealing with this social phenomenon.
Drugs have been a social problem that has blighted most North American cities for many years now. Drug dealers take over neighborhoods, pray on innocent people and turn comunities into wastelands. We the taxe payer sure pay the bill to contain this social addiciton, the same can be said of the graff movement world wide. It has to be fought and contained.
yo marty I finished the design im sending it over now
greaty looking forward to it. I sent you the pics of our railfanning trip, you should get them next week. Ah nothing like good old snail mail. Enjoy, got some really juicy ones. 3 7 L lines.
SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS PRIVATE CONVERSATION WOULD SERVE EVERYONE BETTER IF IT WERE RELEGATED TO E-MAIL WHERE IT BELONGS.
Thank You.
ow that hurt my eyes
Is that you GOD????
"We the taxe payer sure pay the bill to contain this social addiciton, the same can be said of the graff movement world wide. It has to be fought and contained. "
From what I can see though, the way it is fought isn't that swift. As I stated in other posts, what happens when they are arrested? they meet others, socialize. They're branded a crook and as such find it harder and harder to remove themselves from that label, even if they wanted to. Since they can't get a good job, or pay any bills, it's back out to mug someone, or hold up a store, and back to jail. And who pays for their food in jail?
It ALL starts at home. If parents don't guide their kids through the dos and don't, don't help them focus their creative energies into productive, marketable ways, them kids might just dabble in crime, and they might just get caught, and go to jail, and get stuck in the vicious cycle. If they're young, they're not going to finish high school. They ain't gunna go to college, and their chances dwindle still further.
Parents ain't got time? where's the grandparents? the neighbors? church? volunteers?
I honestly fear a bit for the future of this city, crime wise. Every psychological study ever done on the subject concludes that good parenting and good education are the one thing that will keep kids out of trouble, yet our classrooms are overflowing, we're short of qualified teachers cuz they're paid next to nothing, and parents have to work long hours just to make ends meet. What's going to happen to these kids?
And people wonder why kids bring guns to school, graffiti things, etc... hello!
If I were president...
wait a minute. this is getting far off topic. nevermind. You get the picture.
-Joe
wait a minute. this is getting far off topic. nevermind. You get the picture.
At the risk of staying off topic, I'll continue. When you say that it all begins at home you are absolutely right. To put my views in perspective, I am the father of four, grandfather of two. My wife and I raised our children to be responsible citizens. We have tried our best to set a good example for them - a loving, stable home, with firm guidance but enough freedom so that they could learn how to handle it when they were on their own. We have taught them values and morality; we have taught them respect. And we have taught them to believe in themselves, to have confidence and courage as they go through life. The most important lesson we taught them, though, was to think. As a result, they have grown up understanding what they do and why they are doing it; they understand the beliefs that they hold and why they hold them. By thinking, they have also learned to challenge that which they could not, or did not wish to, accept, and have tried to change things for the better. As a result we do not always see eye to eye, but each of us respects each other's beliefs, knowing that the others have at least thought through their ideas and decisions and have come to their convictions sincerely, rather than being swayed by popular opinion or simply grabbing a thought out of thin air. Too many parents don't take the time to instill these things in their children, and there isn't much opportunity to learn it elsewhere - hence the problems you describe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ya hit the nail on the head. Now if only more parents followed such a lead. Ironically, last night I watched TV (something I don't do much of), and NYPD Blue's episode had a nice example of what not-the-best parenting might result in, and how unforgiving the sytem can be to those even tangentically involved.
well, not precisely. I am glad YOU are still among the living AND are not courting death in the tunnels, or on the els. The saddest part of this incident, is that T/O's who spend their working lives serving the public will have painful memories, AND somewhere a mother (and father?) who raised this kid will grieve over having failed to instill the first law of ALL life--survival. As to the behaviour itself, I HAVE ZERO sympathy for the dog pissing (tagging). OTOH some actual mural work can be very beautiful. Then there is the question of location. I don't come to your home to redecorate it. The fact that one may have grown up in a less affluent life situation does not confer permission to paint someone else's building.
no one said there was ever any excuse for vandalism, I am glad you feel sympathy for human Life, my whole point im trying to get across is sympathy for human life, and the way some people see it on this board is just inhuman.
And what would you propose, the fact is that there are people behaving reclessly, the question is, where does that stupidity come from??
Arti
Where it comes from can be a million different Things, I already posted a while ago when someone asked me my I started Painting Graffiti, People have their own reasons, I just knew my risk/reward ratio, apparently this guy Hector Ramirez (boy thats eeringly farmiliar, this is one of the worst weeks I had in a long time) didnt wager properly, God chose his path and unfortunetely his family will deal with greif, I THINK THATS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHETHER THE UNDERSIDE OF SOME TRAIN CAR WILL BE DIRTY OR WHO WILL HAVE TO CLEAN IT, THE PNLY ONES I FEEL SORRY FOR IS THE FAMILY OF THE BOY, THE BOY HIMSELF AND HIS YOUNG SOUL, THE TRAIN OPERATOR AND CREW WHO HIT THE BOY, WHO WILL LIVE WITH THIS FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES, AND THE POLICE OFFICERS INVOLVED (Dist 30, 33, 34, VSquad TRACON BRooklyn Squad, and i believe 78th Precinct, Who have to break it to the parents, and also the Conditions officers of these precincts who deal with the paperwork involved and seeing the body and all the horror that comes with taking of a young life. Arti this post is not to you personally.
Why on earth would one risk like that?!
Arti
So it was at a station where Fs and Gs share, correct? To get stuff rolling again, did they reactivate the express tracks from Bergen to Smith-9th (by manually moving the switches)?
There was another 12-9 on the L at Bushwick Aberdeeen. The L was out end to end till around 115am from around 10pm.
I suppose if he never posts here again that could indicate he was the unlucky tagger.
Will these people ever learn?
In a word, no.
...but the Darwin Awards do get another nominee out of it.
shut up with ur fucking darwin awards, this shit aint no joke dumbass
... and your proposal, how to handle irrational people? (there's more)
Arti
Look, if you go into a subway tunnel on a track that is in service, wearing all black (the world's first Ninja spraypainter, I suppose) just to spraypaint graffiti on the walls, that is either someone who really, really, really wants an adreniline rush or is not smart enough to think about the consequences. And it no way equates to standing on the corner of Avenue X and getting hit by an out-of-control car -- that tragedy was the driver's fault, the victims were completely innoncent. the only equivalent here would have been if someone had forced the kid at gunpoint to go graffiti that subway tunnel.
It's sad that he died -- It was sad when the subway surfers got pancaked by the N train on the Sea Beach line last year (and BTW, the mom of one of the victims said "He was a great graffiti artist"). But what he did and what they did was just plain dumb, and fatally so.
I anxiously await your well thought-out rebuttal.
Actually I'd compare it to Russian Roulette.
Arti
Or the urban equavelent of the "extreme sports" like parasking you see on those Mountain Dew ads. I don't deny it's an adreniline rush, but the risk/reward for both should make you at least stop, think and take every possible precaution before going ahead because failure = death.
My question, as in regards to RR is, what's the reward.
Let's nor forget what brought Russian Roulette into life.
Arti
I always wore black but i had a red mag light with me always, and it had a glowstick on it. This is during my tunneling days. I am going to contact the Phun Phactory Organization about possibly cooperating on two murals for his young life, and the friends of my family who died in Brooklyn on Ocean Parkway and those involving a bus in Crown Heights
Death is never a good end to these incidents. Severe injury is probably better, since they will know their stupidity and pass this knowledge on to other people who may do the same...
You man, are a very mean-spirited individual. HELLOOO THESE ARE KIDS, they aren't Animals, KIDS, you old fart
Old Fart?! I'm 16, dude.
then have adult understanding of the situation. Not some barbaric outburst.
You were the one with the barbaric outburst, not Henry.
And he was MUCH more mature in the response than you.
Goes to show you that age is not a prerequisite for mature behavior.
>>> THESE ARE KIDS, they aren't Animals, <<<
Although they are kids, they are already anti-social with no respect for other people's property. Whether this is because of poor upbringing or in spite of their parents' best efforts, society is better off without them. This person was voluntarily placing himself in danger to commit his vandalism, and I am pretty sure neither T/O swerved his train to deliberately hit him. If it had been an animal who did not know better, I would feel more sorry for it than this vandal.
Tom
So it's OK when you call people from other countries "animals" (earlier posts about Middle East) but not OK when somebody refers to your train-trashing friends as "animals?"
Sounds hypocritical to me. Of course, my policy is to not call anybody an animal. Feel free to join me.
ok Mr.Smart Ass, the "animal" in the Israeli posts were ANALOGIES, Im sorry if you had trouble understanding them, My personal true belief is that EVERYONE deserves to live in prosperety and health.
Of course, my policy is to not call anybody an animal. Feel free to join me.
I don't like this policy. What would you call a swine like me?
PIG PIG PIG PIG SOOOoooEEEEEeeee!!!
PIG PIG PIG PIG SOOOoooEEEEEeeee!!!
What would you call a swine like me?
Oinklet?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Let me see, a graffitti "artist" decends to track level, wearing black, where normal passage of trains and 600 volts are in the darkness..............I think we're running out of Darwin Awards !
Bill "Newkirk"
no one said it wasnt stupid
In Sunday's Newsday, les payne did a piece on the difficulties of selecting winners for the Pulitzer Prize. Despite the fact that the column had the usual les payne black & white slant as the main theme, there is a message here for us all. Perhaps we are awarding the Darwin trophy a bit too freely. Perhaps a person should really have to distinguish him self or herself before we bestow such a posthumanous award. Mearly meeting your end under the wheels of an iron horse should not automatically qualify you. Granted - wearing all black in a dark tunnel does convey a certain level of intellectual challange - but does it rise to the level of a Darwin candidacy ?? Perhaps what we need here is a Subtalk, Darwin Award review committee.
By the way - if anyone wants to see a real Darwin Award Winner - look up Rotten.Com and check out the Russian who thought it would be a good idea to steal aluminum cable from a power pole.
Perhaps we are awarding the Darwin trophy a bit too freely. Perhaps a person should really have to distinguish him self or herself before we bestow such a posthumanous award. Mearly meeting your end under the wheels of an iron horse should not automatically qualify you. Granted - wearing all black in a dark tunnel does convey a certain level of intellectual challange - but does it rise to the level of a Darwin candidacy ?? Perhaps what we need here is a Subtalk, Darwin Award review committee.
One thing to keep in mind is that Darwin Award eligibility requires that the "honoree" meet his maker before he has had a chance to contribute to the human gene pool. Someone who has already spawned is not eligible no matter how amusing the circumstances of his demise.
By the way - if anyone wants to see a real Darwin Award Winner - look up Rotten.Com and check out the Russian who thought it would be a good idea to steal aluminum cable from a power pole.
Heh heh, I saw that a couple of days ago. Quite interesting to see the physiological effects of high-voltage electricity. At least the schmuck's feet were intact.
[By the way - if anyone wants to see a real Darwin Award Winner - look up Rotten.Com and check out the Russian who thought it would be a good idea to steal aluminum cable from a power pole.
Heh heh, I saw that a couple of days ago. Quite interesting to see the physiological effects of high-voltage electricity. At least the schmuck's feet were intact.]
How ridiculous as it might seem, but that's a COMMON way to make a living in the Eastern Europe. Remember post WW Japan.
Arti
I was railfanning today, and went over to Pelham Bay Park, to try to catch the R-142A, The service over there is much more rapid than my neighborhood line the Dyre Avenue Line. I saw something that I never saw before two trains on different tracks going into Pelham Bay Park. Cool mix of IRT equipment.I caught R-142A # number 7241-50.It ran well the strip maps and annoucements were functioning properly for a while.Passing over the yard there's a quite a few R-142A's-for the most part they keep all the R-142A's together.To get to my point it seems that service on the Pelham line is one train after another simular to the Flushing line is there a reason for this?
yes. because the few amount of new equipment they have is helping it somewhat.
I think it's because every Lexington Local has to either start or end on the 6 in the Bronx, so frequent Lex service=frequent Pelham Bay service, AFAIK.
The #4,6 lines are one of the best running lines in the subway system. As for the #5 ---- hmmmmmmmm.
N Broadway Line
I have no ideas what dreams mean, and I don't think anyone knows for sure, but I did have one last night that must have beaten all the others to the high heavens. I was finishing up my teaching career, and I noticed two things about my surroundings. One the weather was getting cloudier and cloudier by the day, and my colleagues and friends were ignoring me, giving me either the silent treatment or showing outright antaganism toward me. This seemed to go on for weeks and there seemed to be no end in sight. Even their words I couldn't hear, except for this story making the rounds of this big, giant dome that just turned up one day in the old gravel pit where they had planned on building a football stadium for the Raiders years ago. They all had been to this dome, and talked for hours on end about it, but never to me. And this was the only conversation I could hear. Finally one day I drove out to see this thing, and it was big, just like the Superdome, only bigger. I looked around and saw no one, but I didn't see an entrance either. Finally after looking around for w hat seemed hours, I noticed a small partition on the west side of the dome and was able to enter. The place was pitch dark and I could hardly see a thing. I did notice this spiral ramp that seemed to head nowhere, but seeing nothing else I started to climb and climb and climb. When I got to the top of the ramp two dimly lit lights went on, and I saw two very military type gentlement standing on each side of the door. I asked where the hell I was and what was going on. They said look behind you, and lo and behold there were my colleagues, friends and students all smiling and laughing behind me. Then the two men opened the door and said look in. I did but it was dark. Then a heard a light switch going off, and when I saw what I saw my face froze. In front of me was the Cyclone Roller Coaster with all its markings. I started to jump for joy, and asked if I could ride it. They said of course I could since
I was the new owner. It was mine----bought from the city of New York and given to me as a retirement present by my friends and asssociates.
As I started climbing into the front seat I woke up. Wow, some off the wall dream. All that was needed was a Triplex #4 Sea Beach on a track and it would have been complete. I didn't know what to make of it when I woke up and my wife suggested I keep this dream to myself. But I'm sure you guys out there have had some strange dreams yourself. Well I can now join your club.
You had me worried when you said it was getting cloudier! Fortunately that was not the case. Sounds like a good deal [oh well you have the Dodgers out there even if I still think they betrayed Brooklyn.haha]
But settle for only a Triplex? Geez how about the stretch from West 8th to Stillwell complete with the 8 track terminal too, and all the old equipment in its glory? [I could add the B&B Carousel and Steeplechase too but I might be going to the clouds with such dreams.]
I checked out the MTA webpage for Metrocard and it seems there is a new promotional Metrocard out now. It is an advertisement for the Felix Trinidad vs. William Joppy boxing match to be held at MSG on May 12, 2001.
There is a sweepstakes going on involving winning Metrocard serial numbers for a first prize of a ringside seat at the match. It was announced that this Metrocard is available at Metrocard Vending Machines, but they're not telling where.
If anybody has bought this card from an MVM, I would appreciate reporting it so us collectors can buy one. The window of opportunity for sale of this card if April 11th to April 30th 2001,
so days are running short.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
I took a close look at the contest rules and I don't think that there are actually "theme" cards for this.
I believe that the serial # are from plain cars issued from the machines between the time frame indicated in the contest rules.
Allan
I spurned today's WMATA trip when I bought a ticket for the NJ Division NMRA charter trip on the CMSL. It turned out to be less than expected, but was nevertheless worthwhile. Regular weekend service began for the season today, so we didn't have the railroad to ourselves as originally had been expected, and there were no run-by's. Also, the "shop tour" consisted of 10 minutes in the yard at the railroad's Rio Grande HQ, where we saw an ALCO RS-3, two old coaches and two cabeese up close.
We shared the consist (both operating PRSL Budd RDC's: M-407 and M-410) with regular non-charter passengers. On the plus side, the rebuilt station at Cape May was dedicated this morning at 10 AM, as our train was preparing to leave Cape May Court House for the beginning of the charter. The dedication festivities had ended when we arrived in Cape May, and CMSL president Tony Macrie treated the dedication dignitaries to a train ride on New Jersey Railroads tavern/lounge 5450 and Santa Fe Pullman diner "Epicurus", pulled by URHS-owned PRR GP9 #7000. No. 7000, the first GP9 delivered to the PRR (built October 1955), had the PRR-in-keystone heralds added to each end since her appearance in Atlantic City April 10-12. Seeing (and photographing) two classy trains standing side-by-side, and seeing both running, made for a pleasant time.
"They got alot more shopping than Flushing, but there isn't any mystical stores there."
MYSTICAL stores ! No mention of Mystical girls, guess they packed the shuttle bus. Maybe you need a vaction from the Big Apple, how about MYSTIC Seaport, Connecticut !!
This is waaay before your time. Back in the 60's, you know the 20th century, this is how you would repair a cut in a seat cushion. You would go to a hardware store and buy this cloth bound adhesive tape that came in different colors. It was called MYSTIC tape, don't know if they still make it anymore.
Like music ? Had you been a teenager back in 1959, you probably bought a "45" of new vocal group from Brooklyn. The song was "Hushabye" by the MYSTICS. Fast foreward to 1970, Johnny Rivers released "Into the MYSTIC", also recorded by Van Morrison.
Well, that's enough Mysticism on MYSTIC if I'm not mistaken !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Gawd I'm hungry ! Going out for some MYSTIC pizza !!!
It was called MYSTIC tape, don't know if they still make it anymore.
Don't know if it's still in production, but I've got several rolls in different colors in the barn down in NC...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gotta swish that mystic pizza down with some mistic juice drinks (okay, so it doesn't have a y).
its been quite a few months since the proposed release of the new metro trains. does anyone know why the new metrorail cars are STILL not in service? im dying to ride in these cars!
Still doing testing. Four cars should have been handed over to Metro to do testing on revenue trackage. We should see them by the end of the month.
Here is a tip:check the WMATA webpage and look at the press releses.
Read my last post. It isn't there.
well as they say "good things come to people who wait"
The april 16 washington post had a artical about the new metro cars anybody have this artical?
I have it. There is no official date.
I got a copy of the new LIRR timetables the other day. Starting May 25th every friday until september 7, there will be a Train leavin from Penn at 510 and arriving at Montauk at 830. Thats gotta be a long run! But If I were an Engineer I would not mnd runnin a line that long!
That's nothing new. It existed last summer. The South Shore's dual-mode was created by combining a 10 or 12 car Penn Sta - Babylon MU (the 5:10 Amityville the first stop after Jamaica) with a 10 car 5:13pm Hunterspoint - Speonk. On summer Fridays, the Speonk always ran to Montauk.
The Amitville-Lindenhurst stops were given to the 10 or 12 car 5:13 to Massapequa Park, which now must stop at Jamaica.
Basically, quite a downgrade in Babylon line service to accomodate the dual-mode. Three trains were consolidated into two with a net reduction of one train Hunterpoint-Jamaica and Jamaica-Babylon.
This is no off-peak usage of dual modes, and no counterpart return train from Montauk on Sunday nites because the dual-modes, having caught fire 3 times, are shit-cans.
Wasn't one of the fires due to a shopping cart wedged between the rail and the third rail ? Therefore there were only two, not three, incidents due to lousy design and manufacturing ?
If you say so, then two, which is two too many.
When I posted a description of the Cape May Seashore Line's celebration of the 50th anniversary of the delivery of the first batch of 6 Budd RDC's to the PRSL and mentioned that there would be a second celebration, someone asked me to post info when it became available.
Saturday June 9, 2001, Cape May Transportation Center, 11 AM (take the 10 o'clock Cape May Court House train from the county fairgrounds station and avoid the traffic into Cape May). This date is engraved in stone. A page of the CMSL 2001 timetable is devoted to it. The second order of 6 Budd cars was delivered to the PRSL in May and June, 1951 (according to the timetable write-up). The program will feature speeches by retired PRSL operating personnel.
On my trip to washington D.C. I took a ride on a breda car they are great (Except for the motors that whines) On the breda cars orderd from 1991 are quiet you Can't here the motor
After seeing certain cars on certain lines for so many years, It is interesting to hear about what used to run where, especially when it is stuff I can't even remember.
I remember some things when I was young. Basically, the BMT and IND had just finished the final processes of merging, and the assignments pretty much followed the earlier separate systems pattern, but with the arrival of new equipment to the consolidated system with older stuff being handed down to the "stepchild" lines of both systems, that gradually began to change.
Before the Chrystie St. era, B division car classes were basically divided as follows:
R 1-10 IND
R 11-32 BMT
R-38-40 IND
The first whole car class of the Chrystie St era was the R-42, which also as the first fully air conditioned fleet, was distributed among both the former BMT and IND.
By now, after 34 years of shifting around there is almost a reversal, with the 32's being mostly IND, and the slant 40's being mostly BMT (especially when Chrystie St. is reversed and the two divisions separate again this summer).
Now what I gather really happened, from things I hear on this board, and some stuff someone told me at the ERA meeting last night:
Early 70's: The R-42's were scattered among nearly all lines (being the only solidly air conditioned fleet). This would help explain why all the lettered lines seemed the same.(see below) I was probably seeing 42's on the A, F, N, etc. even though they were totally foreign to those lines when I really began noticing. 1-9's were also spread around everywhere. Other than that:
the A was R-10's and 44's
CC, D, M, QB, RR as I observed (see below)
E, F most 38's and 40's, 44's
From an 1968 ERA Bulletin, I read a few trains of 38's went to the BMT to be mixed with 32's upon the opening of Chrystie St. I would not have picked up the difference.
And I often hear about the 16's making up most of the EE and GG at one point, and then returning to the Eastern Div. According to the same Bulletin, at the beginning of Chrystie, they and the R-11's were all over the southern div.
In 1975, the R-46's arrived on the E and F, pushing the 38's to the B and probably also to the N, and the slants to the A by 1977. (They first ran briefly on the CC due to some problem on the A) The rest of the 44's also were added to the ones on the A and D.
I was also told that the 46's spread to the N (which replaced the EE in Queens) way back then as well, but I never saw this, and never really saw the N during this time.
The 46's soon had the cracks in the trucks, leading to a major car shifting, with R-10's appearing on the E and F, and even on the B and D, while the CC had 46's! (never saw anything like that). Boy, what I missed during that period I was hardly ever on the trains.(see below) This apparently cleared up the summer right before I began riding the trains to school every day (and the ‘personalities' [car classes] of the lines were solidified) The 44's had some sort of electrical problem, which was not as publicized as the R-46 problems, but the good trucks were taken off of the mechanically/electronically inferior cars to replace the bad trucks of the mechanically/electronically better R-46's, which could then return to regular exclusive service on the E and F. This would explain why the "St. Louis version" disappeared while I kept seeing the "Pullmans" (actual R-46's that were always in the news) (see below)
All this trouble created a ripple effect that led to all the car shifting I saw (e.g-38's to the D, M, QB, RR, and then the A; slants to the BMT, etc.)
Many people don't believe 32's and especially 38's were on the M
Questions:
Were 44's on the N as well before the transfer to Jamaica? Were there 32's on the F during the 70's? (Some may have gone over at the time of Chrystie St.) Or was it the N that first brought 32's to Jamaica?
So is that the true happenings of the 70's? Does anyone have a more exhaustive history on this period?
--------------------------
Here is what I myself saw:
When I was young, I didn't know the names of the different models, so only identified them by sight, grouped into the following classes:
•"Old trains"— straw seats, that monstrous moan during acceleration, bare bulb incandescent lights.
•Somewhat old— single drop down windows and regular double hung windows, outside painted black, red or silver with blue stripe. These had counterparts on the numbered lines, but still not as much diversity (like the round or square end door windows, or portal like side door windows)
•What seemed to be the standard car of the BMT/IND was the stainless steel ribbed cars that had the European picture windows, and were painted blue inside, but the lighting and compressor and brake noises were the same as the somewhat older cars.
• Somewhat new— ribs only half the way up the sides, more modern brake & compressor noises, air conditioned, (no more door latches, but still the key like things on top with the hook the latch used to hold) new all plastic lighting, larger end door windows. Another class looked even more futuristic with some ends slanted, thinner ribs, and longer, narrower end door windows, and the door slid all the way behind the wall panel with a trapezoidal shaped cutout for the door handle.
• "New Cars"— orange seats, fake wood paneling, door chimes, end doors (stainless steel) locked, full width cabs that allowed no front or rear view. At first there was some carpeting! (I was mixed about these cars. They looked so cool, but you couldn't move to the front or back, and you couldn't see anyway if you were there)
In the early 70's, what I saw was the D with all ribbed cars, the CC was old cars (some would still appear on the D too) and the RR and the weekday locals on the Brighton were the regular windowed somewhat older cars .
The other lines I didn't pay attention to. A godmother I really loved used to take me to her house near Lenox terminal (and to church on Boston Rd.) on the numbered lines, so I loved those cars, which were all mixed together, seemingly on all lines (although the ones with the portal side door windows I only seemed to see in the Bronx). The lettered lines seemed to be taken over by the newer ribbed cars, and even the older multicolored cars with the IRT-like side windows had all the same plain end doors as the shiny stuff, so the lettered fleet just wasn't as interesting (though the vastness of it's system would become interesting as I got older) So even other lines I was on like the A, F and N (or the B which I saw while waiting for other trains) were basically a blur— I assumed they were all the same stuff as the D. (The B and N I vaguely remembered seeing ribbed cars on) Lines like the EE, KK and LL I never saw. I did know I saw old cars with dim flourescent lighting and the drop down windows somewhere on the IND, as well as the IRT. There was also the car like the ones on the RR, but with back-to back seating I had rode on somewhere once (I didn't notice or recall the end doors being the round IRT style then).
Soon I began noticing the somewhat newer cars: ones with regular ends were on the D, and the E had the odd looking slants.
Eventually, "new trains" I began seeing on the A first, then the D and F.
So this is how I knew the trains throughout my childhood and pre-teens. By the time I was 13, I was hardly ever taken on the trains. I was basically home, school (walking), downtown with mom, or one grandmother's house (buses). Basically only for the Port Authority (the other grandmother, and other out of town trips) and Madison Square Garden (circus, one Knicks game). So by this time I knew little about the trains, except for the D having the 3 car classes mentioned before, and my running to Newkirk one day to get the new map with all the bright new colors (The D was still that old orange, and it would have been nice to see it with something else for a change. The new scheme did make a lot of sense though).
When I was 14, I began traveling on the trains by myself for the first time— to high school near Brighton Beach. This is when I really began taking notice of the whole system.
The ribbed cars that once dominated the D were rare. Many times when I thought I saw one, it was only the half-ribbed "somewhat newer cars", and they were mixed with the thinner ribbed cars. The "new cars"were also still there. The M and QB were mostly the somewhat older cars that had always been there, but there were some of the somewhat newer cars as well. Wandering off of the Brighton, the A now had the slants as well as new cars, the AA and B was the somewhat newer cars, (The AA may have also had slants, IIRC) the CC was all the old single sash window cars, the E had new cars, but these were slightly different from the ones on the A and D (larger sliding cab door). The F still not sure, but assumed it was the same as the D (I could just make out the shiny cars running on the Culver in the distance on some streets), the RR the same as the M and QB. All the "old cars" were gone, except for work service.
Soon the new cars on the D became increasingly rare, and after a derailment they disappeared. Now I started seeing the ribbed cars again, and found they were made by the Budd Company, rather than St. Louis Car, who made most of the rest of the fleet. They also seemed to be all I saw on the N, and I think they were what was on the F as well.
The Budd cars soon spread to the B, M, QB, and RR, and sometimes the older cars associated with the M/QB/RR would make appearances on the B, D and N. The GG had Budd cars and the old "CC" type cars.
The first R contract number I learned was R-46, because they were always in the news as having some kind of problems, and the fact that a bunch of them filled Coney Island yard out of service was a big scandal. I still did not know the difference between the two "new car" classes .I though they were all "R-46", and it seemed that the ones that were on the A and D were all gone, while the ones I saw on the E, manufactured by "Pullman Standard" instead of St Louis Car, and whose air brakes were now whistling when released, had taken over the entire E and F fleet. I was upset that only Queens Blvd had the new stuff, especially since even the somewhat newer stuff on the other lines had become grungy after years of graffiti, and repainting which had worn off from trying to scrub the graffiti off. Also the A/C's didn't work as good (sometimes even blowing out hot stuffy air in the summer).
Sometime in ‘81, I began seeing a car that looked like the half-ribbed "somewhat newer cars", first on the QB, then the D, but something was different about it. I finally caught one on the M, and the inside was more like the higher numbered Budd cars. I also noticed them on the AA/B and they also spread even to the RR. They were still around in the beginning of ‘82 but soon disappeared. In May, I found them on the A, where they remained to this day. I wondered if they were what had been on the A all long, and had simply "returned home". That same day, I saw a new train with the narrow cab door (St. Louis version) on the N! Later, the Pullman versions began appearing there, and the St. Louis were once again nowhere to be found. Somewhere during this era, the slants began appearing on the B, and also the AA if they weren't there already. (They were the most mysterious of the cars, since I only vaguely remembered them from the E many years before. All this time I thought they were the newest cars before the 46's, but soon saw they had the same old dim un-A/C'd interior as the other cars I just described. Some did have the newer A/C brighter interior). The beginning of the next year (a couple of days before my 17th birthday) I had my first trip to the Transit Museum. Here I learned more of the contract numbers, but as the BMT/IND display only went up to the R-30, the rest were still a mystery (as were the IRT cars between the R-17 and the World's Fair car, called "R-33", which were not in the exhibit. I heard of an R-27, which I assumed was the BMT version of the R-17 I had seen on the J from a rerouted D that winter, (the longitudinal seated car I saw once before) but since the car numbers were lower that the 17's, and it was obviously from the same time period, it didn't seem right.). Some of this info was filled in by a transit worker who lived on my block, but still, some of it was inaccurate or incomplete. So now I knew R 1-15, 17, 30, Budd, and slant 40's. (At the end of my junior year, two of them began running on the D, laying up beyond Brighton Beach!) The modified cars I assumed were "42's", and the ones after that "44's" and all the "new cars" as "46's".
I began hearing the non-whistling air of the St. Louis version in the vents of Fulton St later that year when I moved near there, and found that they had returned to service on the A.
Over the following years I learned all of the correct contract numbers, and the rest is history.
The slants spread to the D, Then the first major Manhattan Bridge flip, where the 40m/42's went to the 6th Av half of the B, D and K (the old AA as double letters were dropped and the BMT eastern div., the 32's and 40's remained on the Brooklyn "BK" and "DK", and the 40's even spread to the Q and R; (3 trains of 32's were kept on the B/D/K, and 30's were used on the 6 Av. Shuttle). The N & R switched northern terminals, yards and equipment (The first ever "new cars" for the R) Brand new cars finally arrived for the DK, N, and Q and then all of the older car classes began going for rebuilding, returning usually to the same lines. The B and D were rejoined, with the D having all new 68/68A equipment, the Q having mostly 68's, the B having the rebuilt slant ‘40's, (but some would occasionally appear on the Q, N & D) the N and having a mixture of 68's and 32's; the 40m/42, in the process of being rebuilt and all returning to the Eastern div., and the retiring of all non-stainless steel B div equipment. (30's had become the "redbirds" of the BMT/IND, and finished up on the C as well as the eastern div) The L got a few trains of slant 40's, the C got 32's and shared 38's with the A, then there was the shuffling of 46's and 32's among the Jamaica based lines, and the shuffling of 68/68A's and slant 40's among the Concourse/Coney Island based lines, leading to the present assignment.
Yeah, that's pretty much where it went. Back when I was there, the 32's, 38's, 40's and 44's were plying the rails along with the older fleet. Since I was split-shifted, I got to play with the older cars since those came out for rush hour and got laid up as quickly as they could be cleared off the line at the end of peak.
The 38's as I remember had SOME of them air conditioned, same for the 40's but not ALL of them. Seems that Brooklyn and Queens tended to get more of them than the other areas, so in that grand old NYC style, various neighborhoods would piss and moan for their fair share of air conditioned cars so it wasn't unusual for some 44's to show up on the other lines - usually two trains total for the whole line and people would actually sit and let trains go by hoping the next one would be air conditioned in the summer. Eventually one would come along. The 32's weren't AC'd at all originally and most of the 38's and 40's weren't either. AC was being experimented with at the time and was a huge hit. Still can't believe the redbirds got refitted too.
But largely mot lines had their "regular cars" plus a few token AC'd cars just to shut people up. Since the D was the Brighton, it was almost exclusively 32's during non peak as did the AA and the B and I'm sure some of the other lines in Brooklyn may have been as well. But Queens got the 38's and the 40's and their allotment of 44's as well. Meanwhile, the A train pretty much remained R10's with one or two 44 consists and the occasional lonely R1/9. The CC was always R1/9's, didn't rate anything else the whole time I was there. So there's the perspective from the north end of the system at the time.
That's a pretty nice story; much like myself when I was a child I knew trains buy "spotting features" rather than actual names, that came later. Glad you had a chance to see and ride those "old trains with bare bulbs and wicker seats". You could the last of early rapid transit history, and those cars had the same ambience of the first steel cars built as far back as l904; with many variations and styles in between. Fortunately you're not as OLD as I am but guess that's my price for having been around for some of the things I enjoyed., like the original IRT!
The slant R-40s debuted after the initial phase of the Chrystie St. connection had been implemented.
I saw and rode on N trains of R-46s more than once during the late 70s.
I also saw a 6-car CC train of R-46s during the height of the truck cracking plague during my last visit to the city before heading out west to Colorado, on September 5, 1980. On that same day, I spotted an E train of R-10s. Both sightings were at the WTC station complex. It tore me up to see my beloved Thunderbirds anywhere except on the A (I had already seen them on the CC). Seeing them on the E was like twisting a knife in my gut, after being betrayed by the 8th Ave. Express marking on the R-1/9s.
Even if I never liked the R10's I'd have to question your feeling bad about seeing them on the E. That Queens raceway was as much fun as CPW in my book so it was a whole lot better than the CC for them. You already know what I'd rather have an either of those racetracks...I'm sure the R10 would have been fun on the E or F for you too.
Right you is about the R40 showing up after Chrystie...
I ran R46's on the N before I quit and moved west, can't give exact dates but would have been before July 77. They came out of Jamaica yard. think they were signed E-F-GG-N. I could never make the time with them on the N. Always a few minutes late arriving at a terminal. One day I got an R42 and we got there right on the money. Guess the only thing I can think of we were running in regulated mode so in speed restricted areas let's say a l5 MPH curve I'd set it for that speed on the controller; maybe by running right by the rules you couldn't make time....its the only explanation I have for it.
I had that problem on other lines with a lot of speed restrictions too, but strangely not the RR, maybe the schedule allowed for it.
An older railfan , when I told him about that said the old time steam engineers always said they couldn't make the time if they obeyed all the rules either so guess its as old as railroading.
Never had a problem on the IND but that's a fast railroad.
I've had bad feelings for the E ever since I was betrayed on September 23, 1967. Of course, at the time I didn't know the E ran express in Manhattan during rush hours. At any rate, stopping at 23rd St. on a train marked "E-8th Ave. Express" was too much. It is this very reason I still refuse to board an E south of 42nd St.
You're right about the Queens express run. I've been on a few prewar E trains there, and they really moved. The ultimate express dash, from what I've heard, is the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd. stretch, which I've never experienced. Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) says Jamaica-bound F trains running express would regularly rip past Sutphin Blvd., and that the only F train of R-10s he ever took topped them all.
Interestingly enough, July of 1977 is about the time I began riding on the subway semi-regularly once again after a lengthy absence, except for one instance on July 28, 1976. I've said before there's a good chance I may have ridden on a train commanded by yourself on a Saturday, and now I'm curious as to whether or not Kevin aka Selkirk ever worked with you when he was still a conductor.
Yo! Heh. I did the Brighton/Concourse (D/CC) in 1970 and 1971. I knew a lot of guys by face, but it looks like Ed was in another part of the territory during my stint. We probably were chasing each other in opposite directions, but my own pick was the D and occasionally would get turned as a CC when I got up to the Bronx at about 8am ...
Having moved to the "Eastern" territory in late 68 I didn't go to the concourse often, worked Vacation Relief M/M usually hung around the BMT Eastern or Queens IND, or an A out of Lefferts/Euclid area. But for variety sake did go elsewhere when I could bid an attractive job for a week or two. So our paths may have crossed. If you'd remember me at all I was one of the few young white guys, smoked a pipe, and loved the R1-9. (I did work 4 months in l970 and 6 months in l97l on the IRT for experience and variety sake)
For Eric: I'm sure he's right about the R40 on display pre-Chrystie. I associate their going into service in 1968 by memory, a few months could make a difference; he's younger so I'll take his word for it. I'm sure a lot of Subtalkers know better than I do; I was still chasing the old stuff!
IIRC the slants were on display on one of the "express" tracks at 34th St. in 1967, before Chrystie St. Although I saw them there for the first time, it was on an F train in revenue service.
Another piper, eh? Meerschaum for this guy and Boerkum Riff ... and yes, I smoked IN THE CAB. Sounds like you were on the IRT while I was having fun on the D train. I rolled out of Coney or Brighton and returned there at end of run, so chances are if we ever DID run into one another, it would have had to be there. I was doing split shift rushes, folks would move UP to "extra extra" from those digs, so I was bottom rung there. Nobody wanted what I did. :)
Selkirk: You have no idea just how envious I became when I read your post to Big Ed. I can tell you this as fact. If we hadn't moved from New York when I was 14, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I would have moved heaven and earth to become a motorman on the New York Subway. Not a doubt about it. Even today when I visit and ride on the subway, I am severely tempted to ask the motorman to hit the road so I could take over and operate the train. Hell, if I was a mullti millionaire I would even build my own minitature train and tracks, complete with a small bridge and tunnel and ride until the cows come home. That you two experienced such a thrill, well all I can say is I hope you realize how lucky you both were to do it.
Heh. I have a four track subway layout on my desk with a mini-Stillwell yard and all running N gauge Katos ... yeah, for anyone who's caught me laying out all my cards on the table here the last many months, working for the TA was the ONLY thing I wanted to grow up and do ... until I did it for real. Then I seemingly washed out like sheet through a goose but at least I was lucky enough to get it out of my system. Like God telling me, "OK genius, you've had your fun, now get on with it."
The gig was fun while it lasted (most of the time) but it had some mighty ugly moments here and there too. Worst of all, ya couldn't blame the train for making ya late to work. Heh. But yeah, the one thing I do have for the almost a year invested in it was that I got my wish which over the years has taught me to be a whole lot more careful in what I wish FOR. :)
Most of the guys I worked with were pretty cool, there were curmudgeonly bastards too who clearly loved pulling the wings off flies, and layers of management who actually could whistle with their thumbs up their posteriors. But to this DAY, there is NOTHING ... and I mean *NOTHING* like yanking the handle and having hundreds of tons of power doing your bidding. Forget monster trucks or biggie boats, nothing like an R9 to give you a rip roaring stiffie. :)
I know all about management. We teachers call them Administrators and whistling with their thumbs up their posteriors is about all they can do. But you at least got your chance. I know you did have some enjoyable experiences. I can't envision someone doing that and not having their share of fun.
Heh. You made your own fun. Back when I worked for the "ta" EVERY day was "anything could happen day" (Mickey Mouse Club style) so you learned to just deal with it and bust chops with everyone else you worked with. I was lucky in that I was taken in by old timers who were amazed that anyone my age even wanted to set FOOT on the prewar cars, much less play car monkey with the doors and worse, get my own personal butt plug and USE it. (electric brake fuse thingy for those who never had to stuff it in before doing the reverser thing). I loved those cars, so the old timers were only too willing to poke fun at the "why do those things need an operator at all if they're so slick" ("bing-bongs") guys who were new to the railroad and thus got broken in on the newer cars.
I got tagged as a "hippie" so I got the "old junk" ... loved EVERY second of my time on those. Sitting in a cab and pushing door buttons was a major yawner ... nothing like climbing out through the gates and having step plates drop below you when they dropped off the car, only to climb out and put the happy gloved fingers under the bottles to show the Gila Monsters who was king.
It's a pity that folks on the trains these days never knew the daredevil nature of how the "ta" used to be ... every day when I got home, I'd kiss the sidewalk in gratitude for living another day. :)
But yeah, in retrospect, it was among my happier times. It just REALLY SUCKED when I was doing it and having to put up with so much ... ahem ...
Well I did get an admission of it being one of your happier times. But remember, you are not alone. Bosses are a big pain in the ass in most occupations. The BS you went through is the same I deal with every day in education. A bunch of blowhard know-it-alls who don't know shit from shinola. Have a great day amigo.
Heh. Now I work for my wife. Management is good ... management is good ... management is ...
Yea, right. Just keep saying it over and over and I guarantee you that you will believe it........in 40 years. You know the old saying: The big lie is easier believed than the small one. Still, working for your wife can't be all bad.
Heh. Where else can you set up a rather large electric train set on your desk and find it there the next morning? No complaints here or I don't get my dinner. :)
Man, talk about squirrels looking for their biweekly nut.
Fred, sounds like you might have contracted DMS (Darius McCullom Syndrome)!
BMTman
Doug, you're too cerebral for me. I might have what you say if I knew what the hell it was. Please enlighten me who this Darius is.
Heh. I'll leave it for Doug ... consider "Darius" as one of those "ultimate railfans" who you'd want to beat over and over again with the cab door until he was 12-9. :)
He's a rabid enough railfan that he's going to be a guest of the state for the next five years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It can't be worse than HPS.:-)
Well you could have had a chance last year!There was an open competitive Motorman"s exam last year...right off the street, not promotion. To be honest I wonder if I knew what was on its way to occur (I was the last one to know but wanted it anyway) whether I've had applied and gone back to NYCity for 4 1/2 years to make it to 62 and pension. I never thought I'd be looking for a job again but I'm beyond looking for a career now.
I can say in honesty I enjoyed my 10 years as a M/M and 10 years as Loco engineer. [maybe you can interpret loco differently if you know a little Spanish]. I did my time, it isn't really out of my system and no regrets at all.
Heh. Blood has plenty of iron, riding the rails only adds vital nutrients. Heh. Funny how that is. When I left the TA, I had had more of my fill. Yet still, the hands just need to clutch handles every now and then just to resume breathing. Now that Gonerail is gone, I'se screwed. :)
Esta es muy loco ... la via del tren subterraneo es muy peligroso.
Smoked a pipe, eh? I thought I smelled tobacco when opening your letters.:-) BTW, thanks for the dimensional drawings.
Actually, the first R-40 ran, or at least was displayed before Chrystie St. at the 34th St. middle. (It had a GREEN"F")
Today hit traffic on 280 and 1-9 on my way to JSQ. Once I got there we took the train to Yankee Stadium to be disapointed by a sell-out. On the way back our 4 train pulled into 42nd Grand Central at about 1400-1430, well our 4 had someone with bad B/O and it was getting hot, then my savior came on the local R-142 7241-7250, this also being my first time on an R-142. We switched to the new train and it had the new smell and it was cool as could be wanted. I like the strip map and the time on the new trains. Currently how many trains of R142s are in service, at yards or wherever?
Thanks
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The first of a 3-day series of in-depth reporting on the SNJLRTS is published in Sunday's Courier-Post. Those who adamantly oppose it as a money-wasting secretly-planned boondoggle might find nothing new in part 1.
Part 2 Monday's Courier-Post amplifies Sunday's main point that nobody will ride the line. A sidebar article describes the creative financing that bypassed voter input.
Part 3 has active links to parts 1 and 2, as well as other related material.
Yesterday on my way home from school I boarded an ML 7 train at Grand Central, going towards Times Square so I could be assured of whichever seat I chose. As we went over the switches outside of the terminal, however, the lights in the car all went out and I looked up. Instead of the P/A system speakers inside of the fans, there were WF style lights.
What are these features doing on a mainliner? I believe the car was 9544 or 9455.
Only the MK rebuilt cars (R-26, 28 and 29) have the speakers as you describe. The lights are there in ALL R-33 and R-36 cars. Even if they might not work (they work in all cars where the lights flash off). In fact, none of the cars where the lights turn off at gaps have speakers in the A/C out vent.
Should I go to the extremities of our commuter rail system? (Montauk, New Haven, Poughkeepsie, Port Jervis, Bay Head, etc)
Mind you, I'm not interested in a there and back round-trip, I want to actually do something when I'm there.
I've already decided to go to Philadelphia via rail.
Well, in the summer, you may consider heading south on the North Jersey Coast Line, although the destination of choice closest to the terminus would be Point Pleasant Beach. Its boardwalk is highly commercialized with all kinds of shops and eating places. A fine place to spend some time on a sunny summer day.
Also Long Beach on the LIRR Long Beach Branch is similar, although the commercial strip is more along the street just outside of the station (forgot the name of it!) rather than the boardwalk, but if you're an airline buff, Long Beach has an added benefit - on any given afternoon, you'll see, one after the other, trans-Atlantic airliners flying over on their approach to JFK. Once, when I was there with my father, we even saw a British Airways Concorde.
Back in Jersey, Suffern (okay, its really NY) on the Main/Bergen County Lines has a nice downtown area worthy of strolling.
Dover, on the Morristown & Boonton Lines, has nothing to really write home about, but it's not terrible.
Gladstone, on the Gladstone Branch, seemed like the middle of the boondox the one time we rode out there.
Many other nice places lie along the lines, but not at the ends. Such as Ridgewood, on the Main/Bergen County line - VERY nice and upscale town center.
Red Bank on the NJCL I hear is also like that, but I haven't been there, except passing thru.
Morristown also is quite worthy of a visit, although not as upscale as Ridgewood or Red Bank.
The commerical district of Port Jefferson on the LIRR is a mile or so from the station but it's a pleasant place to spend a few hours. Take the ferry across the Sound to Bridgeport and ride MN back to NYC.
The commerical district of Port Jefferson on the LIRR is a mile or so from the station but it's a pleasant place to spend a few hours. Take the ferry across the Sound to Bridgeport and ride MN back to NYC.
And do it on May 20. See "Upcoming Events" on a website in your neighborhood.
Actually, I'd do it the other way arround. Port Jefferson is a way nicer place to arrive in by ferry than Bridgeport.
Only problem is--you have to walk a mile and a half uphill (steep) to get to the Port Jeff RR station. But then there is the Suffolk Transit bus, # 61 I think.
:-) Andrew
Poughkeepsie has a number of interesting things to visit, although public transportation once you get there isn't all that great. From a railroad standpoint there's the Poughkeepsie Bridge, and up in Hyde Park there's the Vanderbilt and Roosevelt estates that are open to the public.
On the NJCL there's the power change at Long Branch and the yard at Bay Head. Red Bank also has a small yard where there is usually some MofW equipment stored, but the only decent view (without trespassing) is from the train. Red Bank is a rather funky town - becoming rather trendy with all its antique shops and botiques. The best eating in town is still the Broadway Diner, close to downtown about three blocks from the train station. If you're a fan of the movie Dogma it was filmed in Red Bank, and its sort-of-sequel is being filmed there now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I KNOW WHAT YOU SHOULD DO WHEN YOU GET TO WHERE YOU'RE GOING. GET LOST!!!!!!! Just joshing you AP. I just had to give you a dig back.
>>> I want to actually do something when I'm there.
I've already decided to go to Philadelphia via rail. <<<
I guess you do not share W.C. Fields' view of the city of brotherly love. He is quoted as saying "I once spent a year in Philadelphia, I think it was on a Sunday." And when asked what he would like his epitaph to read he said: "On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Tom
If you head out to Port Jervis (my most favourite city in the USA) there is a great little rail yard there with a restored Erie turntable and coaling dock (still filled w/ coal). There is also a Burger King restaurant not far from the station that I always make sure to visit when I'm in PJ. Once on a three person train treck from Trenton we spend the equilivent of $100 to eat a Burger King :)
"Once on a three person train treck from Trenton we spend the equilivent of $100 to eat a Burger King"
JM,
Can you explain this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think he may be including the cost of rail tickets.
Peace,
ANDEE
Trenton to Port Jervis, round trip, three people, plus the tab at the Port Jervis BK - that sounds a little high but maybe not, especially if you assume that all three are around Jersey Mike's age (you know how much young people that age eat).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Young people almost never eat "normally". They either consume massive amounts of food and never gain an ounce, or they consume an ounce of food per day and then puke it up, in fear of gaining an ounce.
Tell me about it! Jr. thinks that a one-pound NY strip steak is simply an appetizer...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tell me about it! Jr. thinks that a one-pound NY strip steak is simply an appetizer...
He should try J&R Steak House in Stony Brook, LI. Their house special is a 72-ounce steak! It costs $50 ... but if you can finish it within one hour, it's free. Polaroids of the winners (and losers) are posted near the entrance. I've been very tempted, but so far haven't quite had the courage to try.
Reminds me of a friend from Texas... at a restaurant near Austin they have a 64-oz. steak special like that. After Mike finished the first one, complete with several sides of broiled mushrooms, in 30 minutes, they offered him another one... which took him 45 to finish. This was about ten years ago; his wife tells me they named one of their dining rooms after him.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you have to drive the truck of the winner when he drops dead?
>>> He should try J&R Steak House in Stony Brook, LI. Their house special is a 72-ounce steak! It costs $50 <<<
Back in ‘58 when I was a traveling bookman, I came across a similar offer in a restaurant in a resort town in Indiana. The price for the 72 ounce steak was less than $10.00, but far more than I could afford since I budgeted $1.00 for dinner in those days. The prize for finishing within 45 minutes was a free steak of the same size served immediately. They had a list on the wall of about 20 winners over the past five years and I noticed that the shortest time was 22 minutes by a New Yorker, and more than half the winners gave their home town as New York City.
Tom
Waterbury, at the end of the Metro-North branch of the same name, is worth a couple of hours' exploring. You'll see some interesting architecture in the downtown area, much of it dating back to the city's industrial heyday in the early 20th Century. In fact, the former railroad station is quite a sight, with a ~200-foot clock tower modeled after the Renaissance-era one in Siena, Italy.* Today the local newspaper occupies the old station and Metro-North has been reduced to an adjacent platform and shelter. City Hall, the Chase Building (municipal offices) directly opposite, and the post office probably are the most interesting of the city's architecture; all three are on Grand Street just to the east of the railroad station. Waterbury also has a large and well-maintained town Green, one block north of Grand Street. There are two very attractive church buildings on the Green, the Gothic St. John's on the west end and the Romanesque Immaculate Conception to its north.
A few blocks to the north of the Green is a district of large, ornate Victorian and early 20th Century houses. Many of them were built by the owners and managers of the huge brass mills that dominated Waterbury's economy until the early 1970's. While most of these houses have been cut into apartments and are often run-down, you'll spot an occasional one in nice condition. The largest and, fortunately, best-preserved of the houses are on Columbia Boulevard, about a ten to fifteen minutes' walk north of the Green.
Metro-North's schedule to Waterbury isn't particularly good, especially on weekends. Fortunately, Bonanza Bus has hourly service to the Port Authority, leaving from the opposite end of Grand Street. The buses are pretty nice and make the trip to NYC in little if any extra time as compared to Metro North.
* = while Waterbury has long had a substantial Italian-American population, few if any of the original immigrants came from the Siena area. Why the Siena tower was chosen as the model, no one knows anymore.
From my own experience, here's what you can do at various LIRR ends-of-the-line...
Long Beach -- as mentioned by others, hit the boardwalk or take a walk along Park Avenue.
Far Rock -- grab a cone at "Chill City Ice Cream" (if it still exists), check out the A train terminal, catch a bus to Long Beach.
Hempstead -- if you're still in a transit-mood, check out the action at the Hempstead Bus Terminal across the street. Otherwise the African-American Museum is about 3 blocks away.
West Hempstead -- over a few White Castles, wonder how there could possibly be less to do at the end of a railroad line, catch a bus to Hempstead.
Port Washington -- sing the "One of these things is not like the other one" song from Sesame Street while pointing at the occasional local resident who passes by in a traditional luxury car as opposed to all the SUV's of their neighbors.
Oyster Bay -- Check out the Long Island Sound. Catch a train back to Sea Cliff. Ponder whether cutting back the Oyster Bay line to Sea Cliff would bump West Hempstead as the lamest end-of-the-line.
Port Jeff -- see 5/20 fantrip.
Montauk -- Catch a cab out to Montauk Point (it isn't walkable -- they built a railroad that goes some 117 miles and then stops about 3 miles short of Montauk Point). If you don't have cab fare, sit around for a few hours waiting for the return trip and think about how that White Castle in West Hempstead wasn't all that bad after all.
Greenport -- don't know. After my trip to Montauk (I didn't have cab fare), I swore off 2 hour train rides to terminals unknown.
CG
You think I should go to West Hempstead, ride the bus to Hempstead, then take the LIRR Hempstead back to New York (or Brooklyn, or Jamaica) or should I just do them one at a time? I guess I would end up paying for both eventually anyway.
As for Greenport and Montauk, I've been there by automobile. When I went to Greenport it was night and I only went there because I wanted to go to Orient Point and back.
Why does the LIRR not go to Orient Point anyway? If you thought Montauk-to-Montauk Point isn't walkable, just check out the north fork!
I'd do West Hempstead and Hempstead in one trip. There are 3 bus lines from the West Hempstead station to Hempstead. If you were really ambitious, you could do LIRR to Far Rockaway, bus to Long Beach LIRR to Valley Stream, LIRR to West Hempstead, bus to Hempstead, LIRR to city in one day.
CG
I've already done Far Rockaway and Long Beach, so I won't do it unless I have to go to those places.
Then definitely do both lines at once. The ride out to West Hempstead is pretty un-eventful -- the ROW goes mostly in between the back yards of houses. If you're riding on the weekend, it's a fun game to count the passengers try and calculate the LIRR's total revenue from running the trip. On a big day, you might hit 50 bucks.
CG
From my own experience, here's what you can do at various LIRR ends-of-the-line...
Interesting list. You most definitely are right when it comes to the "boring-ness" of West Hempstead!
Regarding the main line, Greenport's an interesting town that's worth a couple hours' exploring. It can get very crowded in the summer. Taking the ferry over to Shelter Island and back is a nice trip in good weather. The main problem with Greenport, especially on weekends, is the very scanty train schedule.
If you regard Ronkonkoma as the de facto terminus of the main line, well, there's nothing of interest within walking distance.
Is there anything interesting in Shelter Island Heights where the North Ferry connects?
I wanted to take my car between the North Ferry and South Ferry at some point.
Shelter Island Heights is Shelter Isalnd's only real "downtown." I know little about it, except that it's cute if unspectacular.
My main attraction on Shelter Island is the Nature Conservancy's Mashomack Preserve, way over on the south side of the island. It is a breathtaking preserve with some lovely hikes, taking up a third of the island's area.
:-) Andrew
There is NOW (there wasn't before) an hourly bus, the S94, from Montauk Village to Montauk Point. It's a regular SCT bus with $1.50 far, 25 cents for transfers and free transer to third bus.
And it's also possible to go from Babylon (connect to N19 to N4 for subway)
And it's also possible to go from Babylon (connect to N19 to N4 for subway)
Ignore that unfinished sentence.
Pink Tuna Taxi or Celtic Cab Co. are the main transport from the LIRR to the heart of town in Montauk.
I get around the rather expensive cab rides by taking my 21 speed on the LIRR (I have a valid pass). It's the best way to see the sights in the village of Montauk and also do Gossman's Dock all in the same day. If you're an avid biker, doing the lighthouse (about 6 miles out of town) is feasible for a day trip as well.
BMTman
Gossman's is my favorite stop on any trip out to Montauk. We rode out there last Sunday - still a little chilly - even wearing leathers. I'm looking to do my next trip out there in the cab of a Dual-Mode.
There is NOW (there wasn't before) an hourly bus, the S94, from Montauk Village to Montauk Point. It's a regular SCT bus with $1.50 far, 25 cents for transfers and free transer to third bus.
What's this? ANOTHER pig on our message board?
Same pig.
Same great taste with 50% less fat.
And still very opinionated and somewhat nasty when the mood strikes you. But I have to admit I like this handle better than the othe two. Keep it for awhile. What is your favorite line? I don't think you ever have said what it is.
That's because I don't have a favorite line.
Well get one Americano. Then we will have something to really argue about, just like my buddy Brighton Beach Bob and I do.
You must be on a diet.
Some Terrific Radiant Humble Pig.
(Charlotte's Web, for the uninitiated)
;-D Andrew
Spring Valley: There are stores and stuff there, but the only way out is to either take a bus back to NYC (GWB or PABT, $5), White Plains ($1.25), or Suffern (also $1.25). If you take the bus to White Plains you might get one of those fancy MCI DL9s (or whatever they're called now), numbered in the 140s.
Bay Head is a very boring area. The only thing possible to do there is wait for the train back. Don't go there, I only did because the furthest I had previously gone on the NJCL was Pt. Pleasant (and rode Jenkinson's Beach train, is that still around?).
Wassaic: Wow, talk about middle of nowhere. There's a road with no sidewalk, and a bunch of parking spaces. Trees everywhere. Only did it to get those stops on MNRR (I'm working on riding everywhere in MTA and NJT territory).
Greenport: Fun if you get to ride over a broken rail while they're fixing it. The terminal has a ferry dock and what appears to be some sort of express bus stop. Didn't get to see much else, the broken rail had reduced our layover time from 40 minutes to -10 minutes.
New Haven: There's subway sandwiches, and the station is kinda weird (you're a rat in a maze of tubes). There is a small downtown area. Station has one of those flip boards like Newark Penn or NY Penn's old one. You could take Amtrak back (or to there), fare is around $28. Amtrak tickets are sold at this station (and I got an Auto Train brochure, funny where these things pop up!).
Poughkeepsie: Upon exiting the station about a bunch of cab drivers eagerly await your business. I couldn't really find anything in the station area, though (a newsstand in the big waiting room was the only business I could find, $1.50 for a can of soda). You may wish to take Amtrak back, MNRR loves to toy with you in the manner they open cars on this line (pax boarding further south have 2 additional cars to choose from, but they never fill up. Meanwhile, the cars first opened have 3 people sitting in the 3 seaters, and people standing in the vestibules and doorways). The AMTRAK fare is somewhat decent, ~$25 (up from $19 the first time I was there). I'm not sure if Amtrak still sells tickets here, I know they stopped at Yonkers and Croton Harmon. You may get to purchase tickets on board the train without getting the $8 penalty.
Port Jefferson is a beautiful little town. It's a little touristy these days, but still a lovely place overall. It is about a mile and a half downhill from the railroad station, but there is also a bus down Route 25A. I think the bus route is 61. There's shopping, really good ice cream near the water, and on the water there are some first class (expensive) sea food restraunts.
Greenport is also a nice little town, but stress is on the "little". I think there's a LIRR museum, but I have no idea if or when it's open. There are ferries to Shelter Island and the 92 bus to Orient Point. I once biked (with a Cyc-and-Ride permit) from there to Port Jefferson, some 45 miles.
Montauk LIRR is a little out there, away from anything useful. Donwtown Montauk (very small but pleasant) is a reasonable walking distance on a nice day. Montauk Point is about 6 miles east of there. I'm not sure if there bus goes there, but it's worth going even if you have to take a taxi. It's one of the most breathtaking views in New York State, with water on three sides and rocky cliffs. I biked there from the station, then to Riverhead from there (48 miles) and just barely caught the last train back to Hicksville. Montauk also has beautiful ocean views and a seasonal ferry to Block Island, RI.
Oyster Bay is cute but forgetable. It's about a mile and a half walk to Planting Fields Aboretum State Park, which is a beautiful place.
Long Beach has the ocean beach just blocks away. The city looks like nothing else in New York, vaguely California-ish.
Far Rockaway is a lousy neighborhood which does have a subway stop two blocks away. Spring Valley and West Hempstead have very little to recommend, just standard suburbia. Hempstead has that bus terminal and a couple of museums (is the Fine Arts Museum still there?)
Pughkeepsie is somewhat run down, but there are a couple of nice restraunts a few blocks from the RR station. The only other thing I'd recommend there is the river fair which they have in the summer.
Wasaic? I doubt there's even a rest room to visit! Port Jervis is a truly boring place in my experience. There is a bowling alley there I think.
:-) Andrew
Poughkeepsie is somewhat run down, but there are a couple of nice restaurants a few blocks from the RR station. The only other thing I'd recommend there is the river fair which they have in the summer.
Yes, there's one restaurant just down the block toward the river (the name escapes me now, as I was last there in 1996 with my great-Aunt Hilda, of blessed memory) that has Lionel running around the ceiling, and the food was quite good too. Poughkeepsie, and the surrounding area, was very hard-hit by the IBM layoffs in 1993; since IBM was by far the largest single employer in that part of the Hudson Valley, property values plummeted as people left the area in search of employment elsewhere, and many small businesses were badly hurt. But the area has experienced a resurgence since 1996-97 when young professionals, wanting to get out of the NYC housing market, discovered Dutchess County. Many now commute to the City from there by train, with rides not much different than what they would experience coming from Long Island but from an area with lower-priced housing and excellent schools.
By the way, for the trolley buffs, the old trolley barn is still standing in Poughkeepsie, nearly 70 years after the cars made their last run; for the last fifty years or so it has been an auto parts store named Diesing Supply.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that you mention it, there used to be an underground bowling alley next to the West Hempstead station. If it still exists, I withdraw all of my earlier comments about West Hempstead.
Now that you mention it, there used to be an underground bowling alley next to the West Hempstead station. If it still exists, I
withdraw all of my earlier comments about West Hempstead.
I spent about 45 minutes at WH one evening a couple months ago, waiting for my wife to pick me up (she was attending a wake in the area), and I didn't see anything that looked like a bowling alley. There was a health club just to the west of the station and some sort of discount store across the street.
The assessment of the West Hempstead station stands.
I checked Yahoo!'s yellow pages -- apparently it's gone. It's tough to bring in those customers when they're looking for a huge bowling alley, and all you can see from the street is the top of a stairway and a sign. It was underneath the parking lot just southwest of the station. I'll have to take a look to see if there's any remaining vestiges of it.
CG
This was in the Post today. Suprisingly, given the Labour Party's past history, Kiley is the one opposing Tony Blair's plan to partially privatize the system. The article also hints that there may be a bit of a culture clash between the Americans brought in with Kiley and the British officials within the system and those leading the union representing the Underground's workers.
Kiley under fire in London
I am surprized Tony Blair wants any privatization, given what the Tories did to British Railways.
Its all down to what Thatcher did to the Labour Party. They don't dare raise taxes or spend public money in case anything goes wrong and it keeps them out of power for another 18 years.
i had this question pending for a long time. the bodies look similar in body style can anybody respond?
Simiarities: both built by Budd Co. in Philadelphia; stainless steel bodies and frames, approx same age (M3s in 1960; R32s in 1964).
Differences:
M3s: Wide gauge (5 feet, 2.25 inches). M3s had 3 doors per side, fans mounted in housing above ceiling and extending above the roof line (hence the "almond joy" name), and a combination of longitudinal and transverse seating, upholstered. Cars were approx 55' long. No destination signs on car sides or ends (just an A/B designation on the car ends). Never had A/C. I'm not sure if these cars were married pairs, but my recollection is the fleet was a mixture of both married pairs and single cars. Spent their entire careers solely on the Market Frankford Elevated Line.
R32s: Standard railroad gauge (4 feet, 8.5 inches). R32s have 4 doors per side, all longtudinal seats, fiberglass. 60' long. Cars were originally equipped with ventilation fans mounted in the ceiling but below the roof line, but the mid-1980's rebuild has equipped these cars with A/C. Destination/route signs on the sides and the car ends. All cars are married pairs. These cars have run on just about every IND/BMT (B Division) route in New York during their careers.
thanx. i thought they were from the same platform. i thought the r-32 was a stretched out, norrowed almond joy with almonds under the roofline.(were the fans were)bombardier did it with the R-142 and the T-1 they are the same platform,the R-142 is about 20 feet shortier and about 2 feet narrower than the T-1
I thought the the MFL had a narrow guage. Oh well.
>>Never had A/C<<
Except for car 614 (the only A/C equipped car out of the M-3 fleet).
Why weren't the rest of the M3's equipped with A/C?
>>Why weren't the rest of the M3's equipped with A/C?<<
Simple. There was no cash at the time. Originally, The Almond Joys were originally suppose to come with A/C. 614 (like PCC 2165) were to be expirimented with A/C in 1972. The humps were replaced with a long housing that held the compressor, the fans became blowers, and the condenser was mounted underframe. It wasn't the most reliable setup, but it did keep it cool. When The Kawasaki B-IV Mounds cars started arriving in 1983, SEPTA could have use that setup for The Almond Joys. A/C was one of those things that could have saved The Budd fleet (the other thing was proper trucks, as in Pioneer III's).
The new cars on that line are equipped with A/C, right? With that line being wide guage, then that must explain why the trolley line runs parallel to the subway. Are there places where the tracks interchange? What other idiosyncracies exist on that line?
There are provisions that would allow trolley/rapid transit crossover at the 19th Street trolley stop, but the switches were never installed. Originally, there were no island platforms on The Market-Frankford Line (1955 changed all of that), plus the Market West replacement tunnel was built to BMT/Broad Street specifications (the height clearance remained), and The Frankford stations were not built with mezzanine levels (unusual at the time, but the city cheaped out again). Also, March 4, 2007 will celebrate the 100th anniversary of The Market Street portion of the MFL.
When I've said no island platforms before 1955, I've meant the stations and not the two terminals (I rarely count a terminal as a station, even though it is one), so my mistake.
As delivered, the R-32s had blue doors (dark blue on the outside, teal on the inside) and bulkhead route and destination signs as well as marker lights. The doors were painted silver on the outside in the mid-70s, then dark blue once again in the early 80s before GOH. Front destination signs were abandoned in the late 60s in favor of a large multicolored route curtain installed in the destination slot. Most of the original route curtains were removed. The front destination curtain made a comeback in the early 80s until GOH. During GOH, the marker lights and roll signs were removed from the bulkheads to make room for A/C equipment. An electronic pixel sign directly above the storm door displays the letter code of the route the train is operating on, although it's usually difficult to read from a distance. Doors are now unpainted.
Wide guage? So how did they get delivered to the line where they spent their careers, were they shipped on special unpowered trucks which were later changed out for the ones that they were supposed to use, or was some other method used? Is the Market-Frankford line still wide guage, or are there plans to convert it to standard guage for connection to other lines? Is the Broad Street line standard guage? The things you find out on this site can knock you over with a feather! I thought the only difference between the Market Frankford line and the Broad Street Line was the type of third rail used to supply the cars, but this information puts a whole new spin on things. Was the Market line built that way to keep out interlopers, the way that the PATH lines were built with narrow tunnels to keep the Pennsylvania Railroad from using their tunnels to get to NYC? Is there a connection to any standard guage rails and the subways of Philadelphia?
The M-F was broad gauge to conform with the legal standard for trolleys in Pennsylvania (keep steam engines off the streets), which is different that Toronto, although the Nickel Plate ran (NS does for now) down a street in Erie, and the Pennsy did in York, etc.
The Broad Street subway is akin to the 4th Avenue subway, built to BMT Triboro standards to handle Class-I's. It was envisioned a Reading train could roll down BSS, like a SIRR train would roll up 4th Ave.
So I take it that the guage will remain the same, and that there will be no changes proposed or planned for? Just how did they get those cars delivered? Makes you think and appreciate what we have in NY, although what we have can ue some improvement.
By truck. Car 601 (City Of Philadelphia) arrived at Frankford Terminal on May of 1960 (all C of P cars would be delivered there). the next car to arrive was NOT 602, but 616 (PTC) at 69th Street in June. Then 701/702 (C of P) after that, 723/724 (PTC). That would be the sequence of the Almond Joy deliveries.
No plans to convert to standard guage on that line, right? That does make for some complications, but I guess they are used to that. The Broad street line reminded me of the BMT years ago, but I guess it has been upgraded by now. Does it have a connection to CSX or Norfolk Southern (nee Conrail) at some location? Was there ever any plan to interconnect the two lines? The last time I rode the Market-Frankford line, I was amused by the conductors blowing whistles just before they closed the doors. In NY, our guys have to point at the boards before opening the doors. Keep me posted on what happens next.
And who knows? Perhaps soon, TA employees will be required to bow at the customers at each stop or possibly genuflect. :)
Sounds like the idiots at my job, who expect everyone to be kind to the prison inmates, some of whom have murdered children and other heinous deeds. Crazy rules are usually made up by clueless administrators.
Well, technically it would make more sense to convert The MFL (and for that matter, the Subway-Surface, surface, and The 101 and 102) to standard guage. Economically, on the other hand, SEPTA would blow their budget for the next 3 fiscal years. It would be nice to see an entire rail system standard-guage, but there is an old proverb; "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one", so following that logic, The BSL and The 100 would be converted to wide guage if anything. Plus Converting The MFL woud require shutting the line down for at least 3 weeks and reguaging the trucks of 240 units (220 Adtrash, 5 Almond Joy work cars, and various other work units), so you see how complicated it is.
Point well taken. The economics and logistics just would not allow a sudden conversion. Well, somewhere in the future it might take place, but we will not be around to see that happen. Do the streetcars interchange with the MFL at some points on the right of way? And while we are on the subject, does broad guage allow for more capacity than standard guage? Austrailia still has broad guage mainline railroads and online re-guaging shops to convert trucks to one guage or another, but I do not know of any other country who does this.
The former Soviet Union has at least 5 UNIQUE gauges, part of their historical concern about invading hordes from their neighbors. A trip from the European end of the country to China involves routine replacement of trucks under the coaches as the Trans-Siberian gets from one end of the country to the other. In fact, they've got it down to a science. At the stations where you get "re-gauged" overhead cranes lift up the car, bogeys are removed and swapped out with others and along you go again. While you're encouraged to get off the train for the swapouts, it's not unusual for tea to be served while folks sit in the cars while all this goes on ...
Sometimes for internal security purposes, standardizing a gauge only makes it easier for enemies to move in on ya.
No, the SS Trolleys and the El never share tracks, simply because they have different power systems and their routes converge only for a short period.
Actually The MFL and The SS share the same power system in the tunnel. It's just the method of delivery is different (MFL: under running third rail, SS: overhead wire).
Where does the Broad Street Line interchange with CSX ( or is it Norfolk Southern ) ? Those cars have to come in from someplace, and since that line is standard guage, there must be aconnection somewhere.
The Broad Street Subway interchanges with SEPTA Regional Rail (former Reading, with a physical connection to the Northeast Corridor nearby at North Philly) at Fern Rock, where deliveries by rail are received.
Thanks for the information.
Let's see about SEPTA's rail guages:
BSL, P&W (Rt 100) and Regional : Standard (4'8 1/2")
Subway Surface and surface streetcar: 5' 2 1/4"
Red Arrow (Philadelphia Suburban): 5' 2 1/2"
A City division LRV can run on the Red Arrow.
A Red Arrow Division LRV can't run in the city.
As to power in the Market Subway and Subway Surface: Same voltage, different substations and feeders.
El tracks and power is managed by the Rapid Transit Division
Subway surface tracks and power is managed by the Light Rail Division.
Just to add to the general confusion, all LRV's, city and suburban, get major overhauls at Woodland shop. Since there is a guage difference in the trucks, it's amazing that the trucks are kept segregated.
Other interesting note: City division rail work equipment that is transferred to the Suburban Light Rail is not reguaged. Go fig.
They should write a book on keeping track of the tracks. That is a confusing scene, but they deal with it, so it will be there. Makes things interesting, but it can be a headache for some. Life goes on.
There used to be an extensive bogie exchange facility in Melbourne Australia, primarily to enable the transfer of freight rolling stock from the standard guage Sydney-Melbourne line to the broad guage Melbourne Adelaide line. There is now a new standard guage line Melbourne Adelaide, so I'm not sure what use, if any, is still being made of bogie exchange facility. The main Australian interstate freight lines are now all standard guage.
Actually, the single cars of the M-3s actually spent some time operating on the route 100 line, with the A/B designation as N/B.
Just in case you don't already know:
Metropolitian = LIRR M-1 & M-3; M-N M-1a & M-3a
Cosmopolitan = M-N of CT (same basic body but O/H vs. 3rd rail pwr)
Mr t__:^)
Well that depends on where you are of course. Here in Sea Cliff (aka One Hot Town U.S.A.) it hit the mid 80s, it's still WARM out there, in the mid 70s. However I was lucky enough to see relatives today who live in West Islip and it was much cooler there. They were only around 70 the whole day, then fell back to the mid 60s!
The south shore is 60-65 while it's still baking here. That sea breeze just can't make it this far north :-(
So did the subways have the air conditioners on today??
TOday was the hottest Motherf***er ever, possibly because the changeover was so quick, does anyone agree with me when I say New York has only 2 seasons? Winter and Summer?
It seems that New York has just two seasons at times. It was quite warm today with the record tying high of 86 degrees. By Wednesday it will be back to spring with high temperaturs in the upper 50s and low 60s which are quite seasonable. On occasion a very warm or even hot day can be expected in April in New York. It has been worse however. I can recall the very hot weather that occured on Sunday April 18th 1976 when the temperature reached an all time high for the month of Apirl in Central Park at 96 degrees. It was also Easter Sunday that day and it was the hottest Easter Sunday ever recorded in New York.
This must be Mother Nature's way of making up for a rather cool March this year.
The air conditioning must have been operating in the subway cars today. If it was working in the R-68s I'm sure that many of those cars were freezing cold.
BMTJeff
I think Slant R40 and R32's have the best air conditioning.
I think that you're probably right. I remember back on May 11, 1993 when we had a record breaking high of 92 degrees I was riding a train of R-68s on the "N" train which is the Sea Beach Line and the car that I was riding in was freezing cold since the air conditioning was on.
BMTJeff
Q: And you will find both on the Sea Beach, the New York Subway's finest line-----only the MTA and most of the Subtalkers don't know it.
Tell me Fred, just what makes the Sea Beach line the "IT" line of NYC? I just may have to check it out someday.
Well Metro what can I tell you. To be perfectly honest there isn't much to recommend the Sea Beach today---and it hates me to say it. Today it doesn't even cross the Manhattan Bridge, is a slow local that gets slower going through that damn Montague tunnel, and the stations on the Brooklyn end are rundown and paint is peeling by the second. I think of the Sea Beach as it was as a kid. An express whizzing through some of the lesser stations in Manhattan, crossing the Manny B and seeing some nice scenery on the way to Brooklyn, going express again on 4th Avenue, and then emerging from the long tunnel and heading for my grandparents or Coney Island on an impressive Triplex #4, buzzing though those mini-tunnels at breakneck speed and arriving at a station that was clean and neat. No refuse to clog the lanes, no peeling paint, a line that was respected and admired by all riders. Now you have it. If you ride it you cannot see it from my perspective because my love of that line is buried from the memories of my childhood. For the record, you are the first person that I have bared by soul to on this part of the subject. Have a great Sea Beach day.
You're right that there isn't much for recommending the Sea Beach Line nowadays. If they ever fix it up it would be a great line to ride on once again.
BMTJeff
No it wouldn't. It's a ditch.
I like the Culver line. It has the best view from the front: The Manhattan skyline. And to the sides you can see for a distance because the line towers over everything.
Leave it to you to add a discouraging word to the conversation. For your information residents in the areas where both the Sea Beach and West End lines intersected or came close to doing it (New Utrecht and Avenue U comes to mind), clearly preferred the Sea Beach over the West End because of the fact that it did not tear through the neighborhood since it was below ground. Residents also knew it was less noisy as well. You couldn't see it from ground level unless you came to a station and looked below street level. It may be impressive to look at the scenery riding on top of an El, but residents of the area are far from elated when a train whizzes by with all the noise accompanying it. Except for some shade in the summer that is the only thing to recommend it to residents who live near such a contraption. I know. Because those stations are where we disembarked to go to my grandparents for Sunday dinners back in the late 40's and early 50's. My uncles, aunts, grandparents all spoke highly of the Sea Beach and ridiculed the West End for what it did to the neighborhood. You just got a little subway historical education. Learn from it.
An el with a ballasted roadbed and noise baffles (or even some kind of advanced roadbed) makes less noise. And welded rail helps too.
The ditch translates itself into increased vibrations in the houses adjacent to the ROW. And of course, things make noise. An el isn't any worse that a major street with all of the trucks and other vehicles that use it.
Something I left out:
We were talking about the best ride. If we were talking about what's best for the community, than everybody would agree a subway is the top choice.
And the most expensive part of the subway: Not putting up the roof, but digging the line. An open cut is a half assed job.
Well my American Pig you said your peace. I will give you this. You do know a lot for an 18 year old. Maybe one day you and I will meet in New York and compare notes, or will be butt heads. Nah! I'll just brainwash you with tales of wonder about my old Sea Beach.
The view from the front on the Culver line? It's of the T/O's cab -- or, more likely, of the newspaper the T/O taped to the window to deprive railfans of their MetroCard's worth.
I'm sure the view from the front would be stunning, but as it stands there is no view from the front.
If the TO does not violate rules and put a newspaper there, one can see through the cab.
The glass is fuzzy. (I believe that's the technical term.) If that's the way the Manhattan skyline usually looks to you, could I have some of whatever you've been drinking?
Face it, none of the post-R42 cars have railfan windows of any use. (Well, the new R62/R62A cabs are fine, I suppose, if you're precisely the right height to look through the little window, but I'm too short. The ones on the 3 are still unmarred.)
Think god I live near by the E Train.
I think the best AC cars are in my opinion are the 1/9 nines and the worst are the redbirds, some are good , some are riding heat boxes.
I remember back in 1969 when new R-42s were running on the (D) Brighton Line. Talk about the Siberia Express !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I remember that Easter Sunday very well in 1976. It got up to 95 in Connecticut.
No, to be fair, NY has three: there is usually a good fall, where the days are warm (but not stiflingly hot) and sunny, and the evenings are cool.
Spring however, goes by in the blink of an eye!
Heh. We did 86 up here today in Smallbany ... and the SNOW IS FINALLY MELTED as of today. Yay! Soon, it'll be our two weeks of "construction season" and then right back into winter again. :)
"So did the subways have the air conditioners on today??"
Since this was the first hot day, yes the A/C was on in the subway cars.Yet the tunnels stations were cool. In the summer, there is constant daily heat in the tunnels and the concrete asbsorbing the heat is no help.
The platform A/C at Grand Central was off, it was comfortable down there. In fact when I got off any subway car the stations were decent, when you ascended the stairs to the street, the heat hit you!
One redbird, 9xxx a south motor on the #2 had no A/C and all windows open. The R-142A I rode on the #6 was nice, so was the R-62s and R62As.
Be cool !
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh man tell me about it. Only 9 more months until the snow comes back. Better start counting now.
MAN! It is hot on the Fitchburg line today.
HOW HOT WILL IT GET? 100 degrees hot id like to be 30 degrees
I'd prefer 20 degrees, which is what it is now.
I'd like to put up a challenge to some of the posters on this board. Many of you seem to feel that subway tagging is one of the most deplorable crimes imaginable, worse than stealing candy from an infant. At least one of you beleives that it's better for the tagger that was killed to bead dead than costing you pennies by incarcerating him. It seems it's the crime, not the reckless behavior involved that irks so many of you. Bunji jumping, scuba diving, alligator wrestling, wrestling in general, and race car driving all involve a great amount of risk, but because they are legal, you all are saddened if there is a loss in "that little realm." It seems however, that a petty crime such as subway tagging is up there with murder. When someone dies commiting this offense, "they got what's coming to them." Well I'm sure all of you are guilty of committing petty crimes or immoralitles, so post them here and I bet I can tell you why YOU should be dead insted of serving that night in jail costing taxpayers money and how YOUR insignificant crime may have affected many.
Now, I'm sure many of you will use "privacy" as an excuse. To you , I say buuship. Most people here don't know your real names anyway. I know I don't. But perhaps, you all will feel to guilty to release your own indicrestions and vices afters you've been so critical of Seven and others who have voiced their crimes to the public.
But, he who has no sin may cast the first stone...
Hmmm... someone (in the past, not now) brags about his crime of defacing the subject matter of this board, leading to some calls for draconian punishments far exceeding the nature of the crime. Then, upon the death of an ~ahem~ artist in (in)action, smirking references are made to the Darwin Effect and questions about whether our original poster was the unfortunate victim are raised.
So, now you are asking everyone to post small crimes or violations they have committed.
Well, either the educational system has significantly changed the way logic is taught in the schools or you've followed a misguided link. Perhaps you were looking for ConfessionTalk. That's located at www.nycconfession.org/pettycrimes/from_the_sublime_to_the_ridiculous/confessiontalk.cgi
Or perhaps you were never taught any logic at all. You can come on here and make some stupid ass comments against me and yet, when someone here compares life to the amount of tax dollars he'd rather save by having someone dead, you ignore them? Where do you keep your head, inside of your ass? Well, I suggest you roll it out and see the light. Since when is a fucking piece of steel more important than someone's life?
The whole point of that post was to get people to stop casting stones and being so damn judegemental. A young man is dead from doing a crime. Yet, you all focus on the crime moreso than the loss of a human being. It seems that his death is justified by his crime. I believe that is just shit in it's rawest form.
[It seems that his death is justified by his crime. I believe that is just shit in it's rawest form. ]
IMHO not really, he took the risk and...
I personally don't even cross the streets on the red light, as I consider it an unneccessary risk. If one chooses to be recless I can't say I feel for him. And I could go on and on and on..
Arti
I feel for (almost) everyone who dies. And reckless behavior is whatever you want to make it. Smoking, drinking, partying, slothfulness, and lazyness are all reckless. You must feel for no one then.
I don't think you got the point.
Arti
I do get it. People seem to underestimate my intelligence. I'm just trying to get you to see the other side of the coin.
Noone will underestimate your intelligence if you don't do it yourself.
The issue with the other side of the coin is that we would have entirely different conversation if one would have sprayed a station. IMHO the main issue here is that one stupidly risked one's life to do something that was meaningless for the most of the society.
Arti
See, I've understood that from the beginning. It was meaningless, my main point was that a human life shouldn't be compared to tax dollars saved. How we got into other debates is beyond me.
And believe me, I don't underestimate my intelligence. I was just called a smug egotist. While that particular accusation was baseless, I do know what I'm capable of.
[, my main point was that a human life shouldn't be compared to tax dollars saved. ]
Learn, tax $ mean much more that mere $.
[While that particular accusation was baseless, I do know what I'm capable of. ]
We all know how capable we are, the point is to convince the others...
Arti
People seem to underestimate my intelligence.
Not me. I am sure that you have an I.Q. score of at least 35.
Not me. I am sure that you have an I.Q. score of at least 35.
Is this based exclusively on the fact that he has controversial ideas?
In that case, the most influential people in history have had the lowest IQs.
Thanks, now I won't have to post a redundant post of ZZZZZZZZZZZZs for a response.
The funny thing is that everyone here seems to think I advocate subway grafitti and other illegal activities. Yet, I'm just trying to get people to understand what they usually can't see or just don't want to. It's like I'm committing a crime myself.
Oh, and I see we both have new names.
Let me ask you something, If they outlawed hag-gliding or whatever it is you have a passion for, would you stop doing it? Even though If you knew you could get away with it for a bit? I had this passion and it was too strong for me to stop, understand that, Now answer that without the stupid risk taking/ scraping underside of train trucks and line delays bullshit, Listen man I respect you position here on subtalk, your position with the Transit Authority, I respect you Knoweledge and certain insights you have, I even respect your age, what I dont understand is why a person of your intelect refuses to see "the other side" and it isnt just you, its a lot of people, Hey Listen I know vandalism is a crime, I understand that, don't anyone give me that bullshit no more, I'm way ahead of it, The reason I even got involved in this topic is not because this had anything to do with graffiti, but because I was outraged at the way some people responded to a loss of a human life, things like "oh duh umm he got what he deserved, uhhhh he commited the act of Graffito-Tagging, boy oh boy worse then murder, duuuh I feel sorry for the thump the truck of the R-46 had to experience." On and on, I give 2 shits about what anyone thinks of graffiti, I just want people to see the different sides of everything, after all this is a discussion board right??? Transit Related right??? But not about a human life, I believe strongly that its only human to be saddned by the death of another human being, I was really upset by the way some people almost glorified the death of this Vandal. Hey listen Train Dude, I made a truce with you before, I'd like to renew it, Like I said before, I joined subtalk because I had always had a fasination with Transit, specificly urban transit, thats what I'd like to discuss, I really wish people would stop bringing up Vandalism and Me together always, reguardless of what I said before (the JOKING teasing of cops and shit like that). You want to attack me personally? I gave you people a chance already, I set up a railfan trip, we had 5 people and we had a great time actually RAILFANNING, not VANDALISING like you people think I'd Probably do, Im even afraid to go on a railfan trip that I do not organize myself because some of these hard-core subtalkers might bust me or something, I took these people out, one was an out of towner(MARTY) which became a very good friend of me and my friend(NYCTRANSIT), After the rail stuff I took them to see several pieces around the city and to Phun Phactory and to Charlotte St. In the Bronx to show them the Community Sanctioned Neighborhood Graffiti Murals, and we had a great time, some guy Subway-buff I think probably even tried to call the police on me I think, good thing I gave him the wrong meeting place. Please understand I had and have my reasons for doing Graffiti, I explained them a few months ago when I was asked, By Traindude I believe even, Reguardless, Don't Judge lest ye be judged, its a good thought to go on by, trust me, it worked for me, even though I am not that Old. I apologize if I offended anyone, I just want people to voice out different points of view, because thats what makes it interesting, Anyways, I'd really would like it if you guys laid off my back and not treat me as "he is what is wrong with America today" you dont really know me, maybe if you met me you'd like me.
Flying gliders - sail planes to some, is a thrilling experience. I have yet to get my license but I have been up for periods of up to 90 minutes over the Kendal - Miami area, never going above 5,000 feet. I have taken some marvelous videos from the front seat too.
To answer your question, I love soaring, I love air-boating and I definitely love motorcycling. I don't like "what-if" questions because they are usually based on an obsurd premise. But in this case, I'll play. While I love the outlets that i have mentioned, I love my family more. I also prize my job as most people know. I find it hard to believe that I would do anything to jeopardize either.
In support of this I might add that I won't fly in less than ideal soaring conditions. I was flightless on my last two trips south. I don't ride my motorcycle in questionable weather (By Choice) although I've been caught in a few showers. I think I'm sufficiently disciplined not to do things that are illegal despite the enjoyment I derive from it.
As for the truce - consider it renewed!
HEy man thats cool, always wanted to get a glider license, As soon as I started my Logbook a few yrs ago I was goin to go for it but I got on with a PPL (private Pilot Licence) Program, I soloed in February for the first time while I was out there for the Esses Art Festival, anyways concern for my saftey was a reason I stopped venturing into the tunnels lately, its getting way too dangerous, not like when I first started writing, this was just a few years ago, plus with the Legal stuff im doing (murals) and my job, I dont have time or patience to go and scout and tunnel. Plus I have my hours at Auxiliary Police, Yes surprise surpirse, I do time there, that explains my knoweledge of NYPD, even the vandal is down with Rudy and Friends, anyways I'm glad this is all over and I could go back to asking my stupid ifs ands or whats about NYCT. THank you. Good Luck and Clear skies
I couldn't have said it better myself, and believe me, I've tried.
Yesssssssssir!
You da man my friend, you tell em!
Marty.
>>> I feel for (almost) everyone who dies. And reckless behavior is whatever you want to make it. Smoking, drinking, partying, slothfulness, and lazyness are all reckless. You must feel for no one then. <<<
Considering the fact that people die every minute of every day some where on the planet, you must spend a lot of time feeling bad for them. Do you open the newspaper to the obituary column each morning to see who has died so you can spend the day feeling bad for them?
Most of us realize that death comes sooner or later to everyone. Why is it surprising to you that the vast majority of Sub Talkers will not expend any emotional effort for someone they do not know, and actually feel antagonistic toward? If this person had been a relative of a Sub Talker, I am sure there would be many of us offering condolences to the those left behind because of their loss.
I have a friend whose son, who I have known since he was four years old, is now on death row in California convicted of doing something far worse than graffiti on subway walls, and if and when he is put to death, I will offer my condolences to my friend and genuinely share in the grief she feels at the loss of her son. If I personally knew the man who was killed in the tunnel, I would feel bad about it, but I do not know him. He is no more than a name in a newspaper report. Intellectually I realize he probably had parents, siblings and friends who will miss him, but I am not one of them and I do not know them.
Neither I nor any of the other Sub Talkers who have posted on this situation suggested that taggers should suffer the death penalty for their activities. What has been said is that this person was engaged in an illegal risky activity and paid with his life for his foolishness. The fact that many of will us not shed a tear for him does not mean we have no feelings for anyone.
Tom
Tom, thanks for articulating the points so well... I've been trying to craft a response, since I seem to have been the one who stirred up the pot this time, and I hadn't figured out how to say it yet. You just did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"The whole point of that post was to get people to stop casting stones and being so damn judegemental. A young man is dead from doing a crime. Yet, you all focus on the crime moreso than the loss of a human being. It seems that his death is justified by his crime."
Perhaps you should do some reading on the legal points of Contributary Negligence.
I'm not even going to explain because it would be an effort in futility. But I will say this, perhaps you should get out of the office awhile and be a human being. You can take that anyway you want, which I'm sure is the wrong way knowing you.
The whole point of that post was to get people to stop casting stones and being so damn judegemental. A young man is dead from doing a crime. Yet, you all focus on the crime moreso than the loss of a human being. It seems that his death is justified by his crime. I believe that is just shit in it's rawest form.
As opposed to what - its cooked form?
You seem to be missing the point of this thread. Some moron decided to carry out an activity that was: (1) very dangerous, (2) destructive, and (3) illegal. He ended up getting run over. If you're expecting to find much sympathy for his death, you'll be searching in vain.
[It seems however, that a petty crime such as subway tagging is up there with murder. ]
More like a suicide.
Arti
Perhaps, I will not disagree with that. But, snagging a bag of chips out of a store can be considered suicide as well, depending on where you go and if the owner is willing to shoot you. Walking around in a certain neighborhood can be suicide as well. But, I do understand your point.
[But, snagging a bag of chips out of a store can be considered suicide as well, depending on where you go and if the owner is willing to shoot you. Walking around in a certain neighborhood can be suicide as well. ]
Agreed, but one has an option (usually) not to do that.
Another point of mine is that (see my chronologically previous post) there are usually people who care about you and risking your life like that is iresponsible and hurts your loved ones.
Arti
"Well I'm sure all of you are guilty of committing petty crimes or immoralitles, so post them here and I bet I can tell you why YOU should be dead insted of serving that night in jail costing taxpayers money and how YOUR insignificant crime may have affected many. "
What are the teaching down there? Your logic is flawed to the point of absurdity. How you can think that if one of us admits to a petty crime it somehow mitigates someone elses criminal behavior? By your logic, a woman who shoplifts should not complain if she's raped. I really think that you need to spend more time paying attention in school and less time on subtalk. Don't let mental health pass you by.
Perhaps my logic is just to advanced for you. You obviously don't have a strong argument yourself since you constantly resort to attacks. But there's no need to stoop to your level.
My point is is that so many of you are complaining about someone else's petty crimes, completely ignoring your own. If you take a look at your lives, you will see how your insignificant acts of unlawfulness can and could have affected a number of people. Instead you're literally beating a corpse over a petty crime like subway tagging. That's my point and my logic. It's not flawed, you just don't want to see it.
As for mental health, I'm fine. You're the middle aged one, I'd say you have 25-30 good years of mental health left, if that. Your mind WILL slow down. But this ain't MentalHealthTalk now is it?
Hmmmm. Your logic - to advanced for me? I'll have to think about that. As for having 25 - 30 years of mental health ahead of me - perhaps so. Then again my past has been productive and i have a future that for however long it is, will be brightened by two points. First, I have had a relatively satisfying life.
Second, I had no part in spawning a smug little egotist like you.
Then again - with my 25 to 30 years of life left, I still have a pretty good shot at outliving a reckless fool like you.
I seriously doubt you'll outlive me barring any physical health problems. Judging by your constant attacking of posters with differing viewpoints from yours, you're stressed quite easily. I wouldn't be too surprised if you had a heart attack.
As for me being reckless, what do you have to base that on? My postings? If that's it, I've given you too much credit. You're not as smart as I thought. You're a very horrible debater with issues such as this. You're calm when you have your TA statistics to back you up on subway debates, but you flounder at anything else. You resort to personal attacks and baseless conclusions when cornered. You have the habits of a low level grade school child. That's not an attack, it's a fact. You can go to any local NYC PS and see that for yourself.
Jason - don't confuse my lack of patience with you for a lack of debating skills. I am not debating with you and never intended to. I am saying that your logic is flawed. I'm not underestimating your intelligence - you are simply overestimating it. The fact is that you've posted a point of view that has some validity. Then you muck it over by saying we should confess our sins and you'll explain why we should die for that behavior. Now - for that point of view, I think you are an idiot. That's not an not an attack, it's observation.
As for your opinion of my intelligence or the lack of it, I'm not interested in the least. I care about the opinions of my family, my friends, my peers & my bosses. Most definitely not yours. Then again, you must know that already because of your keen insight into my psyche.
Dude: I read his post and gave him my opinion. I love it when some guy who doesn't us from Adam tries to psychoalalyse us. It can be both humorous and furious at the same time. I read how you answered him and I would have done the same. He must be new on Subtalk. He learn down the road.
Fred, thanks for the vote of confidence. But Jason is correct. I have little patience for adolescent risk-taking, those who excuse it, those who support it and those who engage in it. I have seen the effects first hand in my life - in my own family. In 1971, my wife and I snuck off to the city for a weekend of theater & nightlife. Our daughter was with my wife's parents and since it was only a weekend we didn't let others know what hotel we could be reached at. To make a long story short, we stopped at my parent's house on our way out to Long island. When I got there I found out that my 2nd brother, Howard, had gone with friends to a beach where there was no lifeguard - against the wishes of my parents - he hit his head and drowned.
Yeah, I know what it's like to lose a loved one to irrisponsibility. I know what it was like to have to go with my father to identify the body. Most of all, I know what that tragedy did to my parents for the rest of their lives. So when I hearthese juvinals proclaiming superior intellect - knowing more than we do with all of our life experience, I get a little hot. I make no apologies for that.
Those that know me know that I engage in some activities that others (including my wife) consider high(er) risk. Motorcycles, airboating and glider flying give me a rush - even at this age. The difference is all are legal and I am old enough to accept the risks of my activitiies. I've also protected my family financially. Graffiti vandals do not take such precautions. Trains can be cleaned - ditto the tracks. The same can't be said for the families of the tagger who, in their shock and grief, can only say, "Not my little boy."
So Jason, Vladimir and joe? , I know you three have got all the answers but I doubt that you've heard all the questions yet.
Well said Dude. Sounds like you live somewhat in the fast lane. I was big on motorcycles once, but my wife put the kabosh on that. I know where to rent them, though, and I have been thinking of doing that so as to get back into the habit. I really got a rush from riding a bike. Maybe soon. Take care.
Feh, I take no other risk than riding the bus in the ghetto. I'm a pretty Cautious Carl myself. You seem to think I'm one of the juveniles you have to deal with in NYC, not a chance. You don't have all the answers either dude, life experience or not. I'm WAAAAAAY ahead of most in my age group and I have parents, relatives, friends, teachers, doctors, and administrators that can vouch for me on that.
"I'm WAAAAAAY ahead of most in my age group and I have parents, relatives, friends, teachers, doctors, and administrators that can vouch for me on that."
You would have to search far and wide to find a parent or relative willing to state that one of their own is less than perfect. At least to the public. To each other, there is no intelligence within their own family.
Teachers and administrators call you intelligent? Heck, with the sorry state of public education in this country, that means that you could read your belt buckle. Congratulations! And if these teachers and administrators called you less than competent, they will have your parents and relatives slapping pairs of rose-colored glasses across their eyes.
If your friends call you intelligent, it means you could read their belt buckles too.
If doctors call you intelligent, you spent too little time peeing into a cup and too much time lying supine on a couch. Either by choice, or by circumstance.
There is an Oriental saying that goes something like this: "When a stalk of rice matures, it bows its head in humbleness. Only the empty stalks stand tall in defiance."
The most worthy and truly scholarly among us are usually the least haughty about it. I believe it was Einstein who said, for all his contributions to society, "I have only scratched the surface of the potential of the human mind." Think about it.
And who the hell are you? Is there always someone on the bottom rungs of society that must stir the pot? This topic was closed until you brought yourself into it.
It's funny I never see you here, and when you do come you jump into an old debate. Do I interest you that much? Is your life so pathetic and worthless that you must take up an argument with a 16 year old boy?
Once again, you're making ignorant, baseless accusations just like so many others on this site. Did it make you feel like a big man to make those comments? Did you get a hard on? Did you ejaculate in pleasure? It seems you must get some type of sick pleasure in re-opening closed arguments in which you have contributed nothing. Perhaps if you had jumped in and contributed something intelligent, (which I do believe is beyond your frail grasp) instead of the useless diatribe I am responding to, I wouldn't have had to give you a verbal tongue lashing (get your hands out of your pants junior), well actually a written one being on the computer and all.
Just by reading your post, I must say that your knowledge of the world is 1st grade at best, infantile is more honest though. I'm sure if I found your parents they'd be more than willing to admit that you are an embarassment and far below the description of average, let alone perfect. I'd say somewhere around retarded ignoramous myself.
So in closing my foolish friend, watch who you're dealing with on this board. I've seen you a couple of times before. You should know better than just to spew out lame jokes like that. Perhaps one of your socially deprived friends or relatives lets you do that, but I'm not going to have it. Think about that.
Oh, and here's a quote for you, since you love them so much....
"The one who lets well enough alone doesn't get berated for being an idiot, the one who tries to be a smart-ass get this response."
So, think about that while you're raiding the chicken coop.
"So who the hell are you." I was asking that same question myself. I don't know that gentlemen, and even though I thought he did have a couple of valid points I get very suspicious when someone comes on like Aristotle and intimates that he has the answers. I'm 60 my friend and I can tell you I DON'T have the answers. In fact, maturity h as told me that as we get older we realize all that we still don't know. Go easy on the guy, though, because since you are a young man you can probably pull the parts of his post that can help you and reject the rest. You and Train Dude still at each other's throats? I know why now. It's because you two are very much alike, full of piss and vinegar and ready for combat when an illogical argument comes streaming your way. Make peace with the Dude as a favor to me. Have a great day.
I'll do my best Fred. It's up to the Train Dude now. I'm all for a truce myself.
Fred, thanks for your attempt to be a peacemaker. However, in this case, your efforts are in vain. Jason and I have crossed swords twice on Subtalk. Both times he's come to avenge the honor of someone he's thought I was being unduly harsh to. He apparently felt that with his superior intellect, he'd be better equiped to fight the evil tyrant. Both times his intervention was not sought yet he's made himself the center of the controversary. He's a loose cannon in search of a target. I think you should read his past few posts. He accuses me of childlike attacks but read his last two. In both he makes sexual referrences - like a ghetto thug and not the mature young man he sees himself as. He says I don't have all the answers and I don't As you correctly pointed out at some point we come to realize how much we don't know. Then again, I likely have more answers than he has.
When I taught, briefly, I would tell students how bright they were or how much potential they had in an attempt to motivate them. Well, as we all know, it's not hard to be the brightest bulb in the box when most don't have filaments. I don't know Jason but based on his brief time here, I suspect that some well meaning teacher has done him the same dis-service that I did to some of my students some 30 years ago.
In any event, I don't need Jason's offer of a truce. I can say, somewhat immodestly, that I have far more to offer when it comes to the prevalent subject that he has. Now, he can continue to lock horns with me and others on the board or he can accept the fact that he's got 2 ears but one mouth for a reason. If he wants to continue to act in the same smug way, he'll be ignored by most and profit little from his betters. If he acts civilly - he'll be treated in kind.
....Well, if this was one of your attempts to drive a rage out of me, you've failed. You're entitled to your opinion, even though in this case, it's wrong. You don't even remember the events that led you to make the statements you've made, which makes you pretty unqualified to make them.
It's pretty easy to attack the wounded, Train Dude, when you have a nice set of hunters with you, but it will come to no avail here. No matter how much I am hated, tormented, taunted or the recipient of unprovocated attacks, I will not "tone down" because I have no reason to. There is nothing to tone down.
I have some growing up to do, true, but that is only natural because I am 16. As for you, you're a middle aged man and it seems you still have some growing to do as well. You're a hypocite for calling me on my attacks, when I was clearly provoked. Yet, you did the same to me when I unfairly attacked you. Was this because it was me who did the attacking that you thought it wrong? In any event, I aplogized to you, they just did a "drive-by flame." Did they actually think I would not retaliate in kind to their irrational postings?
And while you say you don't know me, you still make statements toward me or about me as if you have known me. The fact of the matter is, no matter who wants to teach me on this site about the points you raised above, it is in vain. I do all the things you suggest I do and feel that I don't. But, I'm not going to be whipped into submission by some adults on a BBS board because they think I should just shut-up and get in line with their thinking. That's not me and that breeds a very weak person.
Perhaps when this board can come to terms with the realism that my ideas are quite tame in comaprison to what's out in the real world, perhaps I can get along with everyone. Until then, the threat of being ignored leaves me unphased. This BBS isn't the alpha and omega many make it out to be. I love this place to an extent, but it's not my life. Besides, I have BusTalk. I don't have many problems over there. I've gotten into a few tussles (2), but nothing like over here. Yes, I know I can be on the borderline of arrogant, but perhaps this board should looks at itself before it goes off shooting the arrows of accusation. Believe me, I have a thick skin for this sort of thing because I know I can always come up with a good response.
Besides, it's a bit fun to play the internet heel (heel is wrestling lingo for bad guy). But perhaps before you make me out to be the bad guy, you can get your facts straight. As for not accepting my truce. Boo hoo. Boo hoo. It seems you're an unforgiving person Train Dude, which is childish and harmful in and of itself. But you're the experienced one, perhaps that what goes on these days, unforgiving attitudes. You have most of the answers I suppose. But are they accurate? Mine are, the few I do have. So riddle me this Train Dude, what's better? Quality or quantity? Think about that. In fact, think about everything I said. You will not be able to deny that it is quite mature coming fom a "ghetto thug."
Fred, don't worry about me and Dude. He can go on and not let me play with his toys for eternity. I have hundreds of friends. I just hope he and whoever reads this message understand it and don't regard it as "controversial." I've never considered myself a controverisal person, and I'm not going to start now. Whether Train Dude will ever admit it or not, him and I closely parallel each other. Neither likes defeat. Perhaps he thinks trucing with me is a sign of loss. Giving in to the "devil." Perhaps I remind him of a part of himself he'd like to leave behind, or forget. I don't know. But what I do know Dude, unless God's plan is different, you're going to see me graze these here tracks for a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time to come. So you can either adapt to me, or languish because of my existence. Your choice.
Gentlemen: I can only try. But it does bother me when two people who I have grown fond of on this site continue to belabor each other. I will not attempt a truce between you anymore. You two gentlemen will have to settle this yourself. I am pleased that I can count both of you as friends and I that;s consolation enough.
Sorry Fred, I tried. You can't have a one sided armistice (I believe that is the word). I don't belabor the Dude, or try to anyway, I'm just being myself. I've been told that all my life. Now, I'm being told not to? I can't do that. If he can't accept me fine, but I'm going to raise myself above that level not to ignore anyone.
Okay smart ass, you're a relatively new fella here and I don't really know you, but from what I've read, you have no respect. I think you oughta tone down your rhetoric and take it easy. You should listen to what other people have to say. You will find that you are not always right and will not be able to defend your controversial statements. You have a weak character and you hide behind a wall of aggresiveness.
-Dan
And one more thing, don't give me any of that "you're arguing with a 16 year old boy" BS. Guess what? I'm 16 too, and I am a rational person.
Hey answer man, I've been here for over four months now you dickweed. I just changed my handle. I do have respect for those who respect me. But some don't. And that seems to be a number of people, even though I state my points UN-aggressively. Notice I only get aggressive when a guy like Peter Rosa or yourself comes into the middle of an argument to drop some lame ass accusation or "joke." And for the record, butts for brains, I do listen to people, in fact everyone on this site. From the redundant to the important. So you can now proceed to climb off my dick and stop making statements as if you've known me personally for the past 10 years.
BTW, for a "rational" person, wouldn't it have been more rational not come at me like that idiot SilverFox did? Perhaps you would've gotten a nicer response had you stated your points without the sass of a bitch.
"Hey answer man, I've been here for over four months now you dickweed. I just changed my handle. I do have respect for those who respect me. But some don't.
"[blah blah blah . . .]
"BTW, for a "rational" person, wouldn't it have been more rational not come at me like that idiot SilverFox did? Perhaps you would've gotten a nicer response had you stated your points without the sass of a bitch."
So now I am an idiot for coming in and trying to end a series of trolling and belligerent posts made by a fellow SubTalker, and in my twisted and demented way trying to return this board to some semblance of order. Well then, so be it.
My only apology is to the board in general for being so holier-than-thou in thinking you all needed some sort of defense against this nonsense. For that, I truly apologize. I should not get involved in battles not my own.
But damn me if I will give respect to someone who gives it only when he gets it, but also has the unmitigated gall to demand it in the face of posting a screed such as message 215415, portions of which opened my statements.
Oh well.
This is just an Internet Bull. Board, Lets not make life enemies on here, its getting silly.
Silver Fox: Let me honest. I did think you were acting a little uppity with some of your remarks, but as I told Jason, some of what you said did make sense. It was just the impression I got, that's all. Having said that I believe your last post clarified everything and certainly the olive branch was extended. Speaking from experience, some sad I'm afraid, I made the mistake of making two or three adversaries on this site and it didn't help me at all. I realized my mistake when I went rainfanning with about ten of them on April 1 when I was in New York. Railfanners are a special breed and I can bet the garage that almost without exception the ones I met face to face were a classy bunch of people. I don't think a railfan can really be a no goodnick, and I regret having made a fool of myself in earler posts. If everyone is anything like those I met none of us should have an enemy on this site.
I don't think a railfan can really be a no goodnick
Fred,
You never met a particular railfan from DC who was persona non grata at every transit facility from Arlington VA to Riverside MA and west to Chicago. He actually boasted about the stuff he stole, including fareboxes, inside light fixtures, headlights, trolley catchers, stop light lenses, you name it, he took it.
And conceited as all getout to boot. Actually thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Just like society as a whole, there's good and bad and everywhere in between. Fortunately, we usually know who the no-goodniks are and act accordingly.
Dan: Let's hope to hell this creep doesn't get on our Subtalk. We don't need low lifers like that. Fortunately, there are very few of those who are railfans.
Fred, thanks for the vote of confidence. But Jason is correct. I have little patience for adolescent risk-taking, those who excuse it, those who support it and those who engage in it. I have seen the effects first hand in my life - in my own family. In 1971, my wife and I snuck off to the city for a weekend of theater & nightlife. Our daughter was with my wife's parents and since it was only a weekend we didn't let others know what hotel we could be reached at. To make a long story short, we stopped at my parent's house on our way out to Long island. When I got there I found out that my 2nd brother, Howard, had gone with friends to a beach where there was no lifeguard - against the wishes of my parents - he hit his head and drowned.
Yeah, I know what it's like to lose a loved one to irrisponsibility. I know what it was like to have to go with my father to identify the body. Most of all, I know what that tragedy did to my parents for the rest of their lives. So when I hear these juvinals proclaiming superior intellect - knowing more than we do with all of our life experience, I get a little hot. I make no apologies for that.
Those that know me know that I engage in some activities that others (including my wife) consider high(er) risk. Motorcycles, airboating and glider flying give me a rush - even at this age. The difference is all are legal and I am old enough to accept the risks of my activitiies. I've also protected my family financially. Graffiti vandals do not take such precautions. Trains can be cleaned - ditto the tracks. The same can't be said for the families of the tagger who, in their shock and grief, can only say, "Not my little boy."
So Jason, Vladimir and joe? , I know you three have got all the answers but I doubt that you've heard all the questions yet.
Sir, I'll never pretend to have all the answers. Nor am I excusing, supporting, or partaking. At one time in my life, yes. But I was young misguided kid. (actually, i'm supportive, but only in the sense of giving these kids a place to ply their trade so they don't do it in dangerous places. The artistic stuff could also be placed in locations to attract tourists, benefiting the city on a whole. )
Having had that expirence, and a pretty good ability to explain things, I just thought I'd shed some light on what goes through these kids heads.
I don't believe I ever stated anywhere that I'm of superior intellect, or of vaster life expirence. Merely that I've had a somewhat different expirence in life, and with that comes insights that might not be readily apparent if you never were in similar shoes. Younger folks will always feel invincable. It's a sad part of he human condition. It's a part of life. It's like the smell of pee in the subway. you can get offended at it, complain about it night and day, have it cleaned every day, but it's not going to go away any time soon.
All one can do is accept it, or perhaps do their best to share their insightes with those who need a bit of enlightening. Maybe a little community service trying to help troubled kids? If you can impact just one of them to change their ways and value their lives a bit more, isn't it all worth it?
I don't regret some of the things I've done in the past (it's part of what makes me who am I), but if anyone younger asks me if they should do follow such a path, the answer is always no. Not just 'no', because it's against the law, but no because it can wreck your life. No because you're going to see at least one or 2 friends die, and no, because your better than that. If the kids in hgih school teased you, there's no need to shoot them. Just show up at the reunion completely successful in life. If you're born into a poor family - prove to the world that you can (pardon the vulgur) "Rock out with your cock out". Get that college degree. Get a job making a ton of cash. Marry the man or woman of your dreams. i've done just about all of the above, and there's a whole lot more I'll do before I'm dead.
*sigh*
Increase the positive, decrease the negative. Or something...
Unfortunetly, as much as I'd like to continue with this, I've got a whole lotta things to do, and I think I've said all I've got to say.
Here's to hoping a tiny bit of good came out of all these posts. Thanks to everyone and anyone who commented to and fro. The issue won't go away any time soon, but a little action and rational dialog on everyone's behalf can speed it along to closure though.
Tootles.
Joe
I'm RTS_2150, I can't believe you didn't recognize me. I never try to psychoanalyze anyone. If anything, I've been the target of baseless accusations and psycho-analysis.
As for Train Dude, no, I don't know him personally, but I've been in some battles with him before and I see how he responds to people on here. He doesn't seem to have much patience for anything or anyone.
As for me, I'm not going to hold back either, especially when I'm attacked, usualyy by some pissy ass with some lame joke he needs to get off of his chest. I'll just respond to those morons with zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz in the response box. But as for TD and I, we may never get along because no one will ever want to admit defeat to the other. That's just the way it's going to have to be.
Metro-Houston: I do not agree with on that. You and I had some differences earlier and now we get along great. You mean to say that can't happen with Dude? I think it can and it should. Try a few rapprochment posts and see if things don't improve. And why the new title? RTS was a good one. Too many guys changing handles. I'm going to need a scorecard soon. Good to have to back. If I can be honest, it did appear you were trying to get Dude's goat. I like the both of you guys and don't want to have to be a referee. I hope both of you cool down.
Metro-Houston: Watch it please. Train Dude is not a dude to mess with. I can tell you right now he doesn't give a hoot in hell about what you think of him, and I'm sure he will answer your post. But I know he does care about his friends on Subtalk, and I'm one of his best. He has always been supportive and helpful but I know when he is pushed he is going to push back. What bothers me about your post is that you claim to be able to read him. You can't. Dude is not that simple except for the fact that he will answer in kind and not pull any punches. I think you have a little patching up to do on that score with him.
I once saw a baby bird that had fallen from its nest, and proceeded to stomp it to death. As I was all of five years old at the time, I suppose it wasn't too bad in the grand scheme of things.
Look buddy, I may not be perfect but I at least try to live in a way that makes other people's lives no worse, if not better.
Have I ever done something harmful to the general community, such as littering or vandalizing, just to get my jollies? The answer is no.
People on this board tend to take the position that the community is a shared resource not a no-man's land eligible for abuse by whatever individual feels the most entitled.
Heck, I once got a rebuke once for mentioning that my wife was miffed because she was unable to pull into a hydrant for a second to drop a child off because someone else had parked there permanently. The consensus was she should have been standing in a hydrant, even momentarily, to begin with.
In short, you are talking to the people who spend their lives stepping in other people's dog shit and getting pissed off, not those who let their dog do its business and blithly walk away.
Not to start a debate, but are you trying to infer these people here are incapable of committing? Perhaps, I'm misunderstanding, but that seems to be your stance.
Hello, all! I'm having trouble accessing the official MTA Web Site (www.mta.nyc.ny.us)? Is anyone else here having the same trouble? Also, does the MTA have an e-mail address where I can write to ask them about their website? Thank you.
- Lyle Goldman
It froze up Netscape 6 the first time I tried to use it, but it seems to be working in Netscape 6 and 4.76 and IE 5.5 right now.
I have been having the same trouble too. I don't know of any e-mail address. Maybe try calling 370 Jay St. and say you're having trouble accessing their web page.
Bill "Newkirk"
It works fine here from Sydney using Microsoft IE, ME edition!
Thanks. It works now. Whatever happened to it last night must have been fixed.
- Lyle Goldman
On Sunday, April 22 around 430p I connected to the route 13 at 58th and Chester Aves. The trollies were being diverted to Woodland Ave and I had to take a shuttle over to 49th street, does anyone know what happenened (later that night around 10p, the trollies were back in regular service)
As a cop for almost 20 years I have to say that no crime short of murder deserves death, especially one as horrible as getting hit by a train. As a father my heart goes out to the family of the youth & may I offer them my sincerest condolences. Unfortunately young people think they are invincible. (witness the kids on rice rockets late at night weaving in & out of traffic on the parkways at speeds well over 100mph)
I've noticed there is also a mean streak among some posters on subtalk regarding people getting hit by trains. Every time someone gets hit at a RR crossing you get a number of posters calling them idiots, stupid, deserving of their fate, Darwin Award participants, etc, etc, etc. (And the grafitti supporters such as Seven, etc, are surprisingly silent) Believe it or not I have actually ran across downed gates myself, & I don't deserve to die.
As far as this ongoing debate is concerned, this is like the abortion debate. Does anyone actually think they will win over the other side?? Never!!! So lets stop wasting everyones time and Dave's bandwith on this debate and get to discussing more important issues.
Thanks for that, nothing like putting reality in perspective (something in short supply here sometimes) ... and yes, I've been doing my drinking safely at home tonight as always ... up here in Albany county, the law is taken a bit more seriously. :)
Nothing I love more than armchair conservatism, completely blind to anything not dogmatic. Some of us in the world have to actually try to clean up the mess, and that's a whole lot harder.
"As a cop for almost 20 years I have to say that no crime short of murder deserves death, especially one as horrible as getting hit by a train."
Jeff, I don't think that anyone here says that graffiti vandals deserve death. However, it can be a consequence of their act the same as those who die while running from the police for other minor crimes like purse snatching or auto theft. They don't deserve death either, do they? As for calling the victims idiots, you say you speak "as a cop for almost 20 years". Well I have equal time - and too often had to oversee police investigations when one of these individuals does meet his/her untimely end. I've had to put these trains over an inspection pit when all body parts had not been accounted for. I think we all get the point here. Perhaps the unfortunate are not idiots in the true sense but clearly they are not among the strongest swimmers in the gene pool.
now its genetics? whats next, their skulls are incorrectly shaped? their eye color is wrong? Wrong hai density and Jaw PLacement? A volkswagen in every deutchland home?
Vladimir, Take it any way you wish. I think everyone here is getting tired of your (c)rap. I know that I am. One day you are a tagger daring the police to catch you. The next day you are into commercial art. One day you are extolling the virtues of graffiti tagging and the next you are apologizing for causing the death of people you don't even know. Which one are you today?
Except for this one subject, you have little to offer here in the way of information or insight. Why don't you get your act together? And I do mean ACT!!!
You're quite the moron, aren't you?
-Hank
The issue here is simple. Spraying graffitti is a way to get some fun for yourself while doing some harm to others. When someone harms themself, even kills themself, while attempting to harm others, most non-saints will see it as comedy not tradgedy.
I don't even believe that murder deserves death, let alone graffitti, and am in no way pleased that anyone was run over by a train. Plenty of people do irresponsible and selfish things in their youth yet turn out to be relatively kind and decent later on. Still, we non-saints who feel victimized by the vandalism, litter, and general abuse that brings others joy are bound to see a little humour in the situation.
"comedy " see I understnd the point of your post, but explain how death of a person is even slightly comical in any situation?
That's sick. I really don't believe there's any humour in the loss of a human life.
Thank you so much for posting this, I just hope people Understand the points you made, I dont try to win or overargue, All I am trying to do give a side of the issue that is not brutal or harsh to anyone, Notice how in most any topic I Participate in that is on topic, I always commend the police and their work, and I think I'm also rather knoweledgeble about NYPD, and I do support them, Those other times I tease them are just in good humor, I will accept my consencquences if I get caught doing graffiti because Vandalism is a Crime, but I do not do that anymore, still I understand why CERTAIN people do it (not some rich boys and girls who wanna seem cool). I already explained why I started doing Graffiti and why I rose to proffessionalism and commisioned paintings/Murals, and Post By "The Joe" also provided good points on the Writers side of graffiti, As the only vandal here (former vandal) I would Like to officialy close this topic. Thank you
Thank YOU, Sarge!
Finally a VOICE OF REASON AMONG US!!!
BMTman
Daily News article says TA deficit projections of $1 billion over 3 years could lead to fare increases down the road.
Duh.
I saw a commercial on The Simpsons yesterday. I don't remember what it was advertising, but there was a Metro-North New Haven Line train in it, and people were hanging out in there. The outside had the blue shield, but there was a V in a blue circle with two dots on either side. JTLYK, it was a Metro-North train.
I saw it too and a line in the ad was that they were stuck in a car w/ no air.
Well why don't you just move to another car!
I saw the saw commercial, and you are right. They could have moved to another car, and also, why did they have the whole car to themselves?
Chuck Greene
why did they have the whole car to themselves?
Maybe it was late at night.
Maybe their defeatist attitude upset the other passengers.
Maybe security had sealed off the car to allow the film crew to shoot the commercial.
The obvious reason is that they were the only people dumb enough not to move into the next car to get air conditioning.
And many commercials use extras to make it look more realistic.
The obvious reason is that they were the only people dumb enough not to move into the next car to get air conditioning.
YES! WOW! That's it! Like from the back of a riddle book. GOOD JOB PIG!
It's a Coca Cola advertisement. We're seeing it out here in California too.
Today I boarded F Train R-46 5900? at Queens Plaza and we went over Broadway due to a Sick Passenger at Lex Av. After DeKalb the Train went Over B, but I got Off to board a Q. On my Trip Down Broadway I noticed Q trains Running on B'Way, Can someone explain these service changes on the Q please?
Yesterday I had to go to Port Jeff.
Instead of taking the 6:34PM and changing at Hicksville I decided to
take the 6:02 and wait for the Port Jeff train at Hicksville so I can have a seat. Well, anyway, the conductor of the 6:02 punched my ticket, circle zone 3 for Jamaica and sign the back, also he wrote the date. He told he that I wont have a connection.
Any idea why he did that?? Was the ticket still valid? The conductor of the Port Jeff train took it and didnt say anything. Why did he sign the back of the ticket?
Yesterday I had to go to Port Jeff.
Instead of taking the 6:34PM and changing at Hicksville I decided to
take the 6:02 and wait for the Port Jeff train at Hicksville so I can have a seat. Well, anyway, the conductor of the 6:02 punched my ticket, circle zone 3 for Jamaica and sign the back, also he wrote the date. He told he that I wont have a connection.
Any idea why he did that?? Was the ticket still valid? The conductor of the Port Jeff train took it and didnt say anything. Why did he sign the back of the ticket?
It may have had to do with the fact that the 6:02 did not have an official connection for Port Jefferson. Technically speaking, your ticket may not have been valid for that train, although as a practical matter the conductors will accept tickets of that sort with the appropriate notations.
He may have mis-punched it, and then signed the back to explain.
Were there more than two eastbound punches?
They have to punch it once before Jay and Once After then lift it (2nd train) punching it there too.
Did he punch it in the wrong spot, like on the westbound side?
All of this would require him to sign it for it still to be vailid for transportation.
Hello, there. Does anyone in Stations know whether the transfer to/ from 23-Ely/45th Rd. Court House Sq. Stations was already instituted? Thanks.
Not yet. I asume the Metrocard transfer won't be in place until August (with the new 63rd St connector) if at all. I did make the transfer on a funpass last Friday, and I have to say it's so close they may as well make a physical transfer (which I believe they will evenutally do.)
:) Andrew
Heh - I just asked that!
The g - e and F are connected, though the 7 is not. I recall hearing awhile ago that there was a contract out to connect them, though I don't know if it was awarded to anyone, if/when construction might start, or when it might open. Anyone?
-joe
I just recieved an second-hand report of an unconfirmed message board posting that SEPTA is to get 3 Amtrak E-60's after enough HHP-8's come online.
Ha! The engine refuses die! Amtrak just keeps on unloading them to anyone who will buy. First NJT, now SEPTA.
Once upon a time I thought Amtrak replaced them with the Swedes as I call them because they were lemons. Guess I was wrong. Gad even the E60's are almost classic now.
BTW I'll share a story I heard reading a Philly trolley book I used to have, in reference to SEPTA getting E-60's. Quote: There was little knowledge of any Philadelphia cars being used as second handers anywhere else because usually once Philly was done with a car there was nothing left of it for anyone else to run.
Guess we should be thankful that the place could offer as much historic equipment as it did, including some rare breeds.[look at Red Arrow]
In an effort to penalize us LOYAL riders who signed up w/ then programme when it first came out Amtrak is now offering 500 bonus points for anybody who signs up now.
Any of you out there being plagued by double posts? I sure have my share of them and it's a bummer. I write my message and make certain I hit enter only once. Still I get these damn DP's. If any of you have a suggestion to end this crap I would appreciate hearing from you.
you mean post that look like this
oh dang it wont let me post the same post
oh dang it wont let me post the same post
When the MTA gets rid of subway cars, who do they sell them to, and is there a way to buy them, and if so, how much would it cost?
Particularly, NYCT will soon be getting rid of redbirds and MN will be retiring the ACMUs.
I'm coming from 30 years ago, but the current practice is probably not much different. So all the following is "unless the practice has changed."
You need to contact the appropriate agency (NYCT, MN) and ask how to be put on the list for sale of surplus equipment.
Scraplists are issued periodically announcing which cars are to be sold (by specific number) and what goes with them (live trucks, scrap trucks, with or without motors, whatever).
You then place a bid on the item(s) you want to purchase. Specifically. Such as "car 4567," rather than for "one R-33." You may also have to place a bond at the time you bid, to make sure you don't back out if you're high bidder.
If you win on a bid, most items are sold "as is and where they lie." Translation: you have to remove them from wherever they're stored, within a specified period of time.
Talk to somebody with knowlege and experience in dealing with highway movement of railroad equipment. If you need to use a crane, plan on
$10 grand just for the move. Also do you have a VIABLE place to keep the car. and are you familiar with the upkeep a car requires. If you are serious, E Mail me and I'll put you in touch with the guys who move cars for the MTA.
The MTA website procurement has a page for the purchase of surplus items. But my understanding is that the plan to sink the Redbirds to the bottom of the ocean is back on, with fisherman off Ocean City Maryland the recipients. They'll be used for artificial reefs to attract marine life.
I'm planning (lightly) on getting an (one) ACMU, if they are retired far enough into the future (when I actually have money). I'm not planning on making it usable, just something to plop into the backyard (appropriately shielded from view). Hopefully by then I will have a backyard.
This raises an interesting question. Because of asbestos abatement, it was going to cost the MTA $30 million to scrap the redbirds in the conventional way. Dropping them into the ocean is estimated to cost approximately $10 million. Now if the TA were to give cars to train buffs for say $10.00 each (and the new owners pay for the transportation costs), that's $10,000 in income plus $10 mil in savings. Let's see, thats $10,010,000 I could save the MTA. Hmmmmmm, naybe I'm worth another raise after all.
... and redbirds'd look prettier up on cement blocks on the front lawn than peecup trux. :)
You could start a new popular culture and please the sausagemakers. Heh.
Actually, the world needs about 1,400 more railcar diners, though I suppose the R-33 WFs would work the best in that role, since they still have their exaust fans :-)
Take the linkbar out of a pair of R-36s and you have a double-wide. Here's a thought. Jerry Springer can buy them and give them as prizes on his show. The winner each day would be the one with the sickest story. Just think of the possibilities, a trailer-park full of RedBirds - "Jerry Springer Village"
Yes, but if you do that a tornado will immediately attack all the Redbirds and destroy them. We can't have that (though the thought of 150 or so Slant 40 double-wides showing up across the country 10 years down the line intriges me)
Although most double-wides are tornado bait, I don't recall ever reading a single account of a redbird attracting twisters. We might be onto a meteorological precedent here. :)
Although most double-wides are tornado bait, I don't recall ever reading a single account of a redbird attracting twisters. We might be onto a meteorological precedent here. :)
The 'birds might be getting a bit old and rusty, but I'll bet they can withstand tornados a lot better than conventional trailers.
Heh.
"The 'birds might be getting a bit old and rusty, but I'll bet they can withstand tornados a lot better than conventional trailers"
At an average of roughly 29 tons (sans trucks) I'd say the redbirds would fair much better than the average trailerpark residence when facing a tornado. Especially with some of the heffers I've seen on Springer, I think it would have to be one hell of a twister to get them to move.
Are you trying to tell us that you've got more wheels under your house than under your cars, Kevin :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You'll be pleased to know that there are absolutely no "tahrs" under this house. But this is, after all, upstate New York and Rensselaer county, home of the double-wide is right across the Hudson from here.
Funny how it works out upstate ... the "good communities" are on the JOISEY SIDE of the Hudson and the trailer parks are on the Manhattan side of the Hudson. Food for thought, and shoes for industry. :)
Talk about environmental irony! Because of completely over-hyped
concerns over what is really a very small amount of ACM, we are
going to dump thousands of tons of metal into our oceans rather than
recycle it.
Unfortunately your solution (did you try the employee suggestion
box?) won't work because the problem is the MTA has forbidden itself
from allowing anything with you-know-what to be sold. It isn't so
much that Sarnelli et al don't want to take it as the MTA doesn't
want to give it. I'm not clear on whether this rule is something
that is coming down from the EPA or NYS DEP or it is an internal
policy decision.
I'm not sure how that would work if the redbirds were (sold) in tact to be maintained as such. Since all of "that stuff" is encased by the carbody structure - there is no environmental issue. It only becomes an issue if and when the car is cut up. I am sure that the redbird heading for the Smithsonian has not had its 'stuffing' removed.
Incidently, I suspect that the R-44s will soon follow the Redbirds into subway lore. Alas, they are suffering from the same disease and there is still no cure.
Yeah, and a bunch of the coveted Slant R-40's took a beating this past winter and are looking like sorry specimens, ripe for the scrapper's torch.
BMTman
Shh! Don't tell Wayne.:-)
I'm sure thw Wayne will not be happy when he finds out that his beloved shovel nose R-40s will be scrapped soon.
BMTJeff
[...shovel nose R-40s will be scrapped soon.]
To quote our former Prez: 'What is your definition of soon?'
BMTman
Within the next few years in this case.
BMTJeff
He'll be wearing a black armband, for sure, while the funeral march from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony is heard in the background.
And don't forget he'll be watching as they prepare the Slant R-40s for their burial.
BMTJeff
I didn't realize that a redbird was going to Washington.
See, you & I both realize that it isn't really a problem unless
you want to make it a problem, but there is this MTA policy in
place. Maybe the Smithsonian will pay to have an abatement done.
The NYCTA does occasionally sell surplus subway cars. In most cases however they scrap their old cars. Some are used in the consist work trains. Others are used as training cars. There are still others that are used as school cars and finally some are preserved for historical purposes.
BMTJeff
I think a more practical solution for those who are interested in these trains would be to contact the scrapyard that does buy a bunch of the cars. In the past, Naparano (sp?) in New Jersey has bought scrapped subway cars from the TA. If you want just pieces or the whole car (!), I think that it would be easier to arrange it through them. I also think that you would have more time to remove what you want, since the scrapyard lets the stuff sit for a while. It would be a lot of fun to have a master controller in my collection. I have a couple of handles, but not the whole assembly. Ah, men and their toys...
My wife just heard a TV news promo that said there was a "Market Street el fire" at 8th. For those unfamiliar with Philly, it's a subway at 8th. PATCO, whose station is one level below, was not mentioned.
From Channel 3 at 6:05 PM: The fire was caused by a piece of metal on the track. Westbound service has been restored. Eastbound service is provided by buses from 30th Street to Spring Garden.
Obviously this is temporary, since at some point they'll run out of westbound trains.
for those who live outside of the philly area, this is what happened from the news files....
Subway service on the Market-Frankford EL was interrupted for over an hour Monday afternoon, after a small electrical fire on the tracks temporarily shut down the line. The incident happened in the middle of the busy rush hour.
SEPTA officials say the small fire began on the third rail of the track around 5 p.m. near the 8th Street station below Market Street and was quickly brought under control. Investigators say the blaze was sparked by a piece of metal, which was wedged between the tracks.
Some commuters said they were stuck in their trains for up to 25 minutes, while firefighters were putting out the fire. Other say they could smell the smoke.
SEPTA bussed people to their destinations while officials inspected the track. Service resumed in both directions by 6:10 p.m. and no injuries were reported.
PATCO service to New Jersey was not affected by the fire.
I was at the aforementioned station when I got on a G train. I was at the back, so i didn't see the train at first. When we were pulling out, I saw it: a 4 car set of R44's on the outermost local track (NOTE: this is on the Ct. Sq./Rockaway bound side). There was no movie equipment, so it wasn't that they were filiming a movie. And if they took a train out of service, then they left 4 cars there for no reason. Anyone know why they were there?
ParaTransit training was being conducted at the Transit Museum. Thus the R44 equipment (you wouldn't be seeing any R9's on the C anytime soon would you?)
What is "ParaTransit Training? Must one wear a chute of some sort? How much are the lessons and how many to receive ones wings?
avid
"What is "ParaTransit Training?"
I believe it involves the wheelchair bound and how they are handled on the trains. With an increase of more "handicapped" elevators, more wheelchair bound passengers will probably frequent the system.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not positive myself but the police were involved in the training. It was a G.O. for Mon. morning and lasting until 3 P.M. Funny thing was that after the G.O. was finished, they were left there until a T.S.S. was kind enough to bring them back to Pitkin....Tues. night. Service? What service?
Not unless 100, 484, and 1575 are operational.:-)
DON'T I WISH!!!
Me too.
I often wonder why the TA kept 2 oddball R4/R7 cars for the museum. These cars looked nothing like the rest of the cars in their particular class.
I always liked the R4 bullseye lighting and wondered why it wasn't used in later models.
Tonight's episode of "7th Heaven" included a scene set at a light rail station in Buffalo. However, the presence of blue-and-white Metrolink trains on a side track gave away the filming location as either Los Angeles Union Station or Burbank.
The producers made absolutely no effort to duplicate NFTA's logo or station architecture. At the very least, the train station scene could have been filmed along the LACMTA Blue Line.
NJ Transit had a celebration of the first anniversary of HBLR today (23rd) in front of TrustCompany Bank at Newport. A whole bunch of NJT officials were there, as was Senator Corzine, all saying nice things about HBLR and its future.
The amount of upscale building going up along many locations along the line is really impressive. The cars are clean, smooth and fast (where they're allowed to be).
(NJ Transit had a celebration of the first anniversary of HBLR today (23rd) in front of TrustCompany Bank at Newport. A whole bunch of NJT officials were there, as was Senator Corzine, all saying nice things about HBLR and its future. The amount of upscale building going up along many locations along the line is really impressive. The cars are clean, smooth and fast (where they're allowed to be).)
Good for them. Not so good for us. In New York, the studies go on, and the debt grows.
" The cars are clean, smooth and fast (where they're allowed to be)"
I haven't been on HBLR in a few months. I hoped they resolved the sitution with the timing of the traffic signals on the street running part of Jersey City. Whenever a light rail train enters a "block", all signals should change and give the train the right of way.
Bill "Newkirk"
HBLR doesn't have signal priority yet, but this is supposed to be coming. There is also a crossing guard at one crossing north of Liberty Park, and a local cop at one crossing on the West Side (ex-CNJ Newark Branch) line where there was an accident. At this crossing it showed how badly timed the lights are. The light was set against us for so long (with little cross traffic) that the cop waved us through.
Having the cars 70% low floor seems like a good decision. There were no wheelchairs during my journey, but a number of moms with strollers and carriages, who could get on and off and ride, no fuss, no delay.
The old CNJ Main in Bayonne shows how fast this service can be. Last time I rode that particular piece of track was in the cab of an RDC while the engineer gave me his considered opinion of every girl we passed.
The AirTrain piers, having marched all the way up to the Jamaica station, have now turned east and begun their crawl along the southern edge of the yard tracks adjacent to the station. There are some pieces of guideway attached to the piers on the curve from Van Wyck onto the LIRR row.
I can't believe how fast the work is progressing. If only NYCT could fix escalators so quickly ...
I checked the FAQ and did not find this info, so I was wondering if the MTA has announced the color codes for the V and W trains yet. -Nick
You would think that the V would be Orange, since it is going down the 6th Ave trackage. And the W would be Yellow, since I believe its going down broadway...
Frank D
I think in all likelihood if the "V" train runs on the 6th Avenue line in Manhattan it would be orange. If the "W" train runs on the Broadway line in Manhattan it would be yellow.
BMTJeff
V is orange, since it will run down 6th Avenue.
W is yellow, since it will run down Broadway.
6 Av Local/Queens Local: 71-Continental, Qns - 2 Av, Manhattan except nights
Broadway/Bridge/West End: Ditmars, Qns - Stillwell Av, CI via B'way Express, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Av Express. Skips DeKalb Av. Weekends: Pacific St, Bklyn - Stillwell Av, CI via 4 Av Express. Nights: 36 St, Bklyn - Stillwell Av, CI.
The bullets above have been on the rollsigns for years.
tis true I saw the W diamond on an R-32
Apparently, about 6:30 Monday evening, after an announcement that "the next train will be arriving on the opposite platform," a downtown express pulled in on the uptown track, released its (few) passengers, then returned to uptown service.
Anyone know what that was about?
The train was "turned" for service. This could have happened because there were either major delays in uptown service, or there was a serious blockage heading downtown.
If you recieved $600 million dollars from the Federal Government, which transit project on the subway would you like to complet or see started?
Well for me, since I hail from Queens and would like to see the Queens Blvd line traffic alleviated even more, I would propose to redo the J and Z line to provide a true express service to Manhattan.
1. Is we start a new El construction along the Jamaica Ave Corridor. a three track layout Keeping the existing station names, Van Siclen Ave, Clevand St, Norwood Ave and Crescent St. Crescent Street station would be a three track express station. Alabama Ave Station would be converted from a Island Platform station to side platform station to allow a third track through. This El, would be built similiar to the #7 concrete EL along Queens Blvd, to minimize noise.
2. After the completion of the New Jamaica El, normal servie would be interupted for a year to complete the new connections to the Jamaica El. While these connections are being made, Shuttle bus service is implemented from Broadway East NY to parson Archer. In additon the old El remains on Fulton Street are brought down as well as the crescent street tracks. Signals are upgraded on the line as well. The junction after Alabama Ave would be modified to allow a third track to enter BWAY ENY. This project would probably take 2-3 years to complete. Once complete service would lokk like this.
Z: To Bay Parkway (M-F) Jamaica Express Peak Direction, Brooklyn (Broadway Exp) Nassau St Express, Brooklyn Exp (Express from Pacific St to Bay Parkway)
J: To Nassau St (All Times) Jamaica Local, Nassau St Local.
M: To Nassau St (All Times) Marcy Ave Local, Nassau Local.
K: To 145 St Manhattan (All Times) Broadway (Brooklyn EXP) Peak Direction, 6th Ave/8th Ave Local, CPW local.
The K return trip is to Canarsie.
That would be my project. If it didn't pan out I wouls start and complete the 2nd Ave Subway.
Frank D
Extension of the 7 line from both ends. After Main St. run the line up three blocks to Northern Boulevard, then up Northern 3 tracks to the Nassau County line and build it to B division spec. Shave back the platforms on the rest of the line and maybe straighten out some of the curves to allow for 60 ft. equipment. If the line cannot be altered to take B division equipment (for the larger capacity) then leave it IRT and put newer cars on it--ones with A/C.
Build a spur from the line that would branch off at Junction, run up Junction to La Guardia and terminate at the airport with stops along the way at 37th, Northern, Astoria, 27th and Ditmars along the way.
Build a transfer between Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza.
Dan
Addendum to my last post:
Double the R-143 order and speed up delivery.
Dan
Everyone, Dave has put the Washington event in his "Field Trip". The photos are very enjoyable, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Target date for starting the V train has been pushed back from August to November because of necessary trackwork that hadn't been considered when August was announced.
Daily News exclusive story
Well that stinks!!!!
I've been looking forward to my commute on the (F) to be shortenned. I was counting on August.
Oh well, the one thing you can always count on from the MTA is delays.
Andrew
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooo.
Of course, it's not possible that this is being pushed back until after the Mayoral election.
How does this affect the Mahattan Bridge flip ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I would imagine the only difference is that they'll be running the 63rd St (S) train for four months instead of one.
This totally bites!
:-( Andrew
There's a Long Island City train that leaves at 3:24 PM and goes through Hunterspoint Avenue.
It's a Port Jefferson Train. I want to go to to West Hempstead of Hempstead instead. The recent thread about non-connecting trains made me think that I wouldn't be able to buy a ticket on the LIC train to get to West Hempstead.
So, would I be able to?
I'm sure you can. A zone 4 ticket would do it for you. You just need to change at Jamaica.
The problem on that other thread had to do with an unusual situation. First of all, the transfer was at Hicksville. Second, there was an initial train out of Penn that did connect to the Port Jeff train. He just chose to take an earlier one. If I understood right, he was able to use it anyway with a note the conductor made on it.
:-) Andrew
I can buy it on board, right? Since LIC has no ticket agent.
Yeah. The only thing a conductor can't give you is an "indirect" ticket, like if you're going from say Hicksville to Cedarhurst (I used to do that, believe it or not) and there's both an eastbound and westbound leg to the trip. That they can't do. But as long as it's all eastbound or all westbound, I'm sure they can help you.
There may even be a ticket agent at LIC during rush hours.
:-) Andrew
There may even be a ticket agent at LIC during rush hours.
I've been there. I'm pretty sure there isn't. Maybe there's one at HP, where I've never been.
Just make sure that there isn't some kind of Ticket Vending Machine at LIC (I'm sure there is not). But if there is, the Conductor will tack on an additional $2 penalty fare. They call it a service charge, but let's get real here.
There may even be a ticket agent at LIC during rush hours.
I've been there. I'm pretty sure there isn't. Maybe there's one at HP, where I've never been.
Long Island City used to have a ticket agent on Fridays only. I guess ridership must have been higher on Fridays. No idea if that arrangement still holds.
There's no agent at Hunterspoint.
There's a Long Island City train that leaves at 3:24 PM and goes through Hunterspoint Avenue.
It's a Port Jefferson Train. I want to go to to West Hempstead of Hempstead instead. The recent thread about non-connecting trains made me think that I wouldn't be able to buy a ticket on the LIC train to get to West Hempstead.
So, would I be able to?
Randy Kennedy's weekly "Tunnel Vision" column in Tuesday's Times is about how the ambiance of a subway car changes when school lets out and a hoard of exhuberant students enters at one time.
Not much has changed on this subject in 20 years. I remember, going to a private high school, taking the B-68 Coney Island Ave bus home ... one bus driver would skip our stop and not bother taking on the group of high schoolers waiting to get on. When we did get on, we were very loud (and I don't remember anyone on the bus being threatened with physical harm by the group of us). But just the fact that we were loud would make others on the bus feel threatened. One bus driver threw us a group of high schoolers off the bus a few stops later; not being involved with the group causing the disturbance, I was thrown off, too, even with other passengers tellng the driver I was not involved. No matter though, I was thrown off anyway. I did get his number and report him. After a few weeks, he was no longer on the B-68 run when school let out.
To this day I am not fond of being near a school, elementary, junior high or high school, when school lets out.
--Mark
I would have refused and told the idiot to call the cops if he wants.
At first, that's what I did ... but I relented because it wasn't fair to the other passengers. Anyway, it was taken care of, best I can tell.
--Mark
I wouldn't be concerned. It would be the bus driver's fault.
Despite the fact that I'm a high school student I can and do sympathize with the unfortunate victims in the column. Not to boast, but my friends and I are uncharacteristically well-behaved on the trains and I dread having a gang of loud kids board a train--it's just the thing to ruin a commute.
Even if they're not physically horsing around, trying to read the Metro Section while a chorus of screaming and cursing and insulting is going on in the back of the bus is incredibly hard. I hate stopping at school stations, both on the bus and on the train and silently cheer on bus drivers who refuse to put up with the middle school near my house.
Dan
....Memoirs of the pack which overtook the
second-car of a (9) train at 181st Station
back in spring of 1999.... it was asif the
Grand Central Shuttle Monkey (Subway Stories; Dwyer)
had cometh back.... tenfold.
There is an extreme safety issue at Aqueduct/No. Conduit Ave station.
In the evening, throughtout the rush hour, cars park on the sidewalk in front of the station entrance and block the doors and sidewalk.
Why? Because the drivers are waiting for friends or family members to return from work. Some times there are as many as three cars on the sidewalk at once. Why? because there are "NO PARKING ANYTIME EVER" signs on No. Conduit Ave as well as NO STANDING ANYTIME EVER signs. All lanes are active with moderate to heavey traffic. Soooo people park on the sidewalks. It gets worse. The station entrance/exit is on the westbound only part of Conduit Ave. People who wish to head eastbound must then drive across four lanes of traffic to make a left turn, to then head east. Very dangerous! The local police, 102 pct. do nothing. TA does the same. Cowboy rules apply. This is my favorite bitch. There is a solution! the North end of the platform has an exit with tons of safe parking, standing, pickup space begging to be occupied. The TA only unlocks the gates and rotary exits during the racing days. The daily riders be damned! This same back exit lacks the entrance type HEPE gates or what ever they are called. So the community at that end is required to walk about 1/5 of a mile further just to get to the entrance of the station. This same end has a tunnel to the city bound side platform, but lacks the stairs to get to the platform, but the opening is there for one. Its leftover from the days of LIRR service to the racetrack. A stair and a rotary entrance and a community would get a boost in service. The best part is there is ample room for the construction of gradual ramps for the handycapped or wheelchair bound. All parties pass the buck for responsibility or jusitiction. IT"S NOT MY JOB. I hope the feds are watching , so when the city or state wants money they will say "What about Aqueduct/ No. Conduit ADA compilence? How safe are the sidewalks and Streets? around that station?
livid avid
I just heard on CBS Newsradio 88 that the 'acting' governor of the state of New Jersey has killed the plan to sink the redbirds off the Jersey coast around Atlantic City. He cited concerns about asbestos as his reason for stopping the dumping. Perhaps the plan could be shifted to the eastern end of Long Island.
There's a place called the "Race" on the sound side just off Orient Point. Dumping there would ensure that the Rustbirds would be totally absorbed into the enviorment in no time.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, why not dump them in the drink over by Oyster Bay. After all, the Locomotive 35 Group is supposed to be moving up there soon. That way railfans could appreciate in knowing that both LI steam and NYC electric rapid transit both share homes in close proximity to each other.
Just a thought...;-)
BMTman
He cited concerns about asbestos as his reason for stopping the dumping.
Is he as dumb as he sounds? Given how long the R-142 project is taking I wouldn't be surprised if the newly elected replacement governor give the project the green light again.
Is he as dumb as he sounds?
Yes. Even the other Republicans are distancing themselves from him - a bad situation, considering the election is this November and he's still planning on being the Republican candidate. Well, okay, maybe dumb isn't the right word, but he could easily win re-election to the state legislature and keep his job as top dog there; I seriously doubt at this point that he could be elected governor, though, even considering the miserable bunch of opponents he has from the Democratic side of the aisle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
a bad situation, considering the election is this November and he's still planning on being the Republican candidate
This just in ... Newsradio 880 is reporting that DeFrancesco is withdrawing his candidacy for Governor of NJ and Bob Franks is putting his name in as a candidate.
--Mark
>>>Given how long the R-142 project is taking ... <<<
What, pray tell, does the "Acting" Governor of NJ have to do with the R-142 project?
Peace,
ANDEE
I was referring to the fact that the Redboids will be running into 2002.
Train Dude, perhaps some of the Redbirds could be dismantled and shipped to Heypaul's apartment, where other NYCT equipment has found a home in the past. :-)
BMTman
Hmmmmmmmmm. Last I heard, Heypaul was trawling on E-bay looking to trade his R-9 cab for a 1945 Otis.
Yes, he's come to prefer a handle that goes up & down vs. horizontal.
Mr t__:^)
Do any of you remember a Saturday cartoon show called Super 6? To make a long story short, one of the crimefighters was Elevator Man, who could shrink or grow as needed. Heypaul's new nickname could be Elevator Man.:-)
Yes, he's come to prefer a handle that goes up & down vs. horizontal.
I've also heard that he's acquired the apartments above & below his.
Mr t__:^)
Is Heypaul still planning to acquire that steam engine he was talking about some time ago?
At least a storm door and railfan window could go to the West Coast :)
--Mark
I would like to get a cab from a redbird
Umm. Asbestos, as I recall, is a hazard because you can breathe fibers. I find it difficult to comprehend how it could be a hazard 100' down in the ocean.
Not only that, I thought that asbestos in place wasn’t a hazard: it is only if you remove it that it causes dust that has to be taken care of. Again, not a big problem at the bottom of the ocean!
And for years, one of the acceptable treatments was "encapsulation" where you'd spray plastic over the asbestos to seal it into place. I would think that the trichlorethylene used for car cleaning is much higher on the biohazard scale but then again, a lot of barristers pay for their tee off time on money collected from "friable asbestos" ... but there ARE solutions out there.
I built a television facility at the Empire State Plaza (Tower Building, 21 floor) years ago and when we opened up the ceilings, guess what was up there? Well, we needed to put in lighting gridwork and pull in wires, so an asbestos abatement had to be done. Anything that was loose was pulled out, then what remained got two inches of sealant sprayed up there. No biggie ...
I can only say that it was not the governor of the great state of NY who killed the plan. I assume that once the car is submerged, the asbestos will begin to come apart and leech out into the ocean where it will rise to the surface. Will this pose a bio-hazard to marine life? Well, 1,000 cars at 29 tons each = 29,000 tons. This is much less than one ocean going freighter or tanker. Many are sent to Davey Jones Locker either by happenstance or by design. The navy often disposes of ships this way too. In any case - nobody rings the panic alarm over asbestos contamination.
I never knew Motormen ride the LIRR. I just never expected it. Do they get free rides on LIRR too?
No, they typically all walk to work.
If an NYCT T/O or C/R lives on Long Island -- aside from driving --wouldn't you think they would take the LIRR, like any other commuters, to get to work???
This is a no-brainer...
[Do they get free rides on LIRR too?]
NYCT Train Operators are not LIRR employees, so legally they are supposed to pay like other commuters. However, many 'get over' since some of the transport unions/fraternal organizations are shared amongst MTA employees in general. Also it depends on who's checking the tickets on a particular train -- some LIRR conductors let 'brother railroadmen' ride free while others do not. It's a matter of personal disgresstion.
BMTman
Also it may depend on the route.
I take the LIRR from Jamaica to Flatbush and there are more probational conductors on the times I ride. The old timers give you the wave on. I always pay but alot of guys that use it once a week like I do don't.
If I was probational I'd make you pay.
>>>I take the LIRR from Jamaica to Flatbush and there are more probational conductors on the times I ride.<<<
That's because most of the routes serving Flatbush Avenue are low seniority (Far Rock-Long Beach-Hempstead). The Far Rockaway Branch is the lowest seniority line in the LIRR. Also any job that begins within the City Terminal Zone is low on the seniority list as well.
>>>If I was probational I'd make you pay.<<<
You've got to. When you're a probie, you should take NO chances since one bad mistake could mean termination.
But this raises a question: aren't NYCT motormen and conductors
required to be NYC residents? Or has that restriction gone away?
There is the "Lyons Law" as I believe it's been called. It is not applied to represented employees. Hence, they can live anywhere they choose. In fact, I had a road Car Inspector who actually traveled from Philly nearly every day.
When we move into the managerial ranks, we sign an agreement. The agreement states that we may continue to live in our current homes for as long as we wish. However, should we decide to move, we're required to move into the confines of the 5 boros. As of now, I've known a few managers who have moved subsequent to becomming managers and have not moved into the city.
Thanks for clearing that up!
NJT is the same-- we are required to pay for NJT (and Amtrak) but some conductors will let you ride and in the case of AMtrak I even got a free ride to Philly at Thanksgiving. By NYCT rules, AMtrak, LIRR, MNRR, Amtrak, etc. employees have to pay but...
While many LIRR Conductors will allow NYCT employees to ride on their pass, they are more likely to allow AMTRAK employees who share union affiliations that NYCT employees do not. I, too have been permitted to ride AMTRAK twice, but I never plan on it.
Railpace Hot News posted that NS will streamline switching at Enola yard, just west of Harrisburg.
“Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail cars daily.”
Apparently they intend to start using locomotives, instead of pushing the cars around by hand.
I've probably said this before, but I remember when I was small, just about the entire yard had catenary. It was like a big, green spider web. I think the poles are still up. Probably the widest catenary poles in the world.
Railpace Hot News (scroll down a couple articles) posted that NYCH announced opening of a railcar-to-truck transload at Bush Terminal.
Thanks, ChuChubob. I took a ride over to Bush Terminal yesterday and noticed two train-to-truck loading platforms on their property.
I'm sure NYCH management 'sees the handwriting on the wall' so to speak and realizes that some (or a good portion) of their livelihood will be gone once the CP/NY&A float operations at 65th Street become a reality.
BMTman
This is good news indeed. Environmentally friendlier, will help keep freight-related jobs in New York.
Will the transload facility be for TOFC (piggyback) traffic ot COFC (intermodal) traffic? NYCH and I believe NY Dock used to carry this type of traffic, but the soon stopped.
-Dan
After going back from Elmhurst I got a 7 local at 74th and stood at the front window. Then approaching Main street the T/O opens the door and says "watch the door". Doesn't sound bad, until I hear him mutter "asshole" when I don't move quick enough.
Relax!!! An old saying,
"If one person calls you a jackass ignore him. If two call you a jackass, it's likely a coincidence. If three call you a jackass, start looking for a saddle."
Consider his remark strike one and write it off to he was probably having a bad day.
As someone who did both sides of the fence, some railfans can get very annoying when you're trying to run your ride. I've had folks fall into my cab when the door latch let go and let me tell ya, instead of getting out of the way, it'd be a "golden opportunity" for them that I really didn't need at the time.
Be mindful that there's someone on the other side of the door "just trying to get their biweekly nut" as BMTman put it once - and sometimes (oft'times) you can be having a mighty crappy day on the road, especially if you get cheated out of your lunch and time on the crapper before you've gotta roll out again. The bay window isn't a right, it's a privilege, savor it when you get it but please don't irritate the guy in the box. :)
I try not to lean on the door, many do. But I usually don't expect the door to open before the train stops. The train could've been crowded, and isn't it against operating procedure to leave the cab door open while in service?
Though I've seen the door open on many occasions, mostly on the 7 line. I do hear the cabs on the Redbirds are hot in summer, so I guess some T/O's open the door. There is a little door stopper they use sometimes to keep the door open an inch or two.
I did move out of his way within a few seconds, he obviosly was in a bad mood because I did nothing wrong.
The "door stoppers" are notorious for rotating and coming loose sometimes. Doubtful this was the case here, but that's exactly what caused a passenger to fall into my cab once since the door was able to come *IN* as well as open *OUT* ... and yes, those cabs can get quite warm - that's the reason for the latches in the first place.
No doubt you had a guy who had been having a bad day, it happens - ask any of the others here who work for the TA. Was he rude? Sure. Only point I wanted to make is that many railfans can made absolute pains in the asses of themselves too with running commentary, unnecessary noise, thumping on the door with their feet, all sorts of things. After a few runs, you can quite have your fill of it sometimes.
Only advice I can give ya is cut the guy some slack, the job isn't as much fun as it would seem once you're in it. I know. :)
One day I had to pushed the door open very fast while I was on the "E". There was a guy standing back to the door his crack of his ass lined up with the crack of the door. A few min. later I heard something thught the door, then I started to smell something, and then againg heard and smelled something. This guy was passing gas. It was so bad that, If this was the gas chamber I would have been dead. I push the door open and told him that he had to move, and that he was very roude of him, what did he think that no one was driving the train. The guy trun dark red and walk away. Some people don't think do they.
Robert
I apologize in advance for ROTFLMAO. That's bad. I hope it wasn't too warm in the cab.
No the cab was nice, but the smell was bad. What ever he eight that day went right thugh him and into my cab.
Robert
Had to be chili, beans, or cabbage.:-)
califlower and onions
avid
Beer and hardboiled eggs
It small like all in one.
Robert
Or even worse - pickled eggs.:-)
Heh. Wow ... that's a purple heart in MY book. :)
Thanks, but for what I been hearing it happen all the damn time. I was told to by a 3" C clamp to keep the door open a little bit this keep paople from leaning on the door like that. So far it has been working. I don't see anyones ass in my face any more. It also sometime give my a good view of the good looking woman that sit in the first set of long seats between doors 2 & 3. I eveny seen two wonam sitting there and one laying on the other woman lap, lets just say, I am lucky I stoped the train at the right mark of the station.
Robert
Heh. I'll pass on a story that would not be appropriate for all ages here but I'll just leave it as being off duty and deadheading home one night, had a cab ride that was rather ... ummm ... nice on the wrong end of the train. (and yes, I wiped off the bench when we were done). Some wimmens loved the uniform. :)
wow,umm if thats true, thast pretty cool, but on the farting issue, I fear of that, might disturb the T/O while he is operating, could be dangerous
I was a conductor at the time, and yeah, it was fun. When you're 19, you don't think a whole lot about getting busted by a TSS somewhere and you let your pants do your thinking. But in answer to the movie, "Risky business" question of "I want to do it on a real train" it was fun. Now kids, don't try this at home. It ain't "Fun City" anymore. :)
I guess a lot of the guys here aren't into exposing how much folks at the front window can really honk them off sometimes, I'm not with the TA so I can "gas off" about it all I want. But if you spent day in and day out locked in the box, it's a miracle no geese have been shot by a motorman recently. You could usually drop the window for the smelly (and those who just ate a LOT of garlic and insist on a play by play while you roll) but the really loud and obnoxious folks really were beyond the ability to endure sometimes and shutting the door didn't make them go away. A genuine cheeseoff for me at least was the door-kickers ... try stopping at a marker with folks banging things on the door.
yes I could imagine the clastrophobic atmosphere of being in the box all day, I can understand why doors are sometimes kept open, If I was runnin trains I'd probably swing the door open at times, I even see Transverse cabs w/open doors a lot of the time.
Heh. You really do feel like you're in one of those "deprivation chambers" at times ... then you open your pay envelope. :)
Yeah, it becomes a matter of life and breath....
I just want to know what mystical girls like. :-)
The answer is very simple actually ... "some fun" ... Cyndi Lauper wrote a song about it. :)
Back in 1970, before AIDS, all it took was "wanna do it on a train?" After the umpteenth slap, it was "bing-bong" ...
I guess the train wasn't the only thing moaning and groaning.:-)
Had it been on the R-10s, no one would have noticed - the train would have drowned out any pleasure sounds.
Ah, but you forget the "power of the cab" ... lights out, shriners. Door controls? WHAT door controls? :)
When you've got a church key, you can have your own "club car" ... after all, how many people need 10 cars at 3:30 am?
I have one for you. When I visit New York as I did in 1999, 2000, and this spring, I ride the subways, not surprise there. When I ride the Sea Beach, I make it a point to go to the motorman introduce myself as Sea Beach Fred and shake his hand. Until Sunday April 1 this always worked. They seemed delighted and we usually got into a conversation. When I did the same on April 1 while railfanning with some of my Subtalk buddies the motorman bum refused to shake hands with me and actually looked like he was being threatened. I shook it off because I was in a great mood as I was with a group of people who I hit it off with at first sight. Later, though, on the plane ride home, the incident really pissed me off. Can you imagine, I thought to myself, a motorman on the Sea Beach refusing to shake hands with the most rabid of all fans of that line, the very personifacation of that train? Well, the more I thought of it, though, the more I just shook it off to experience. Hell, he probably never heard of Subtalk and Sea Beach Fred. Well his loss.
Fred, there are guys who may be having a bad day and then there are those persons who are generally miserable. About a year ago I took my oldest grand-daughter into the city for a day. She actually got to ride the cab of an M-1 and blow the horn. When we got on the 'D' train, she wanted to see the cabs on the R-68. Not only wouldn't the T/O let her in, he actually slammed the door on us. Later, a more pleasant T/O on the B line did accomodate us.
Well buddy, maybe he was an extra extra from the Brighton line. Hmmm? Maybe? It's as good an excuse as any I s'pose ... glad it didn't take the shine off the line on ya at least. Life in NYC seems just so much more serious than it used to be, and I suppose there's a sufficient supply of nuts to feed the squirrels that anyone is suspect. Damned shame that but having worked there myself, I'd leave the guy alone and just give him a thumbs up, turn and leave. But then that's me.
But geez, don't let the paranoid get to ya ... chances are he goes home to 15 police locks at night and one of them cable-TV alarm systems. :)
Hey Robert, an even better location for girlwatching is a window seat on the LOWER level of the new LIRR tri-levels on a hot day when alot of girls on the platforms are wearing short skirts!!!
Sometimes they forgot the underwear-and they did that on purpose! Cross ventilation really gets used by them, and you get an eye opener to boot. What next? Do not ask.
Well It's very rear that I get to the LIRR. But the time I did ride one I though the same thing about the girl.
Robert
Hey Sarge, can you tell me if the LIRR still uses the tracks adjacent to the Sea Beach near 8th Avenue? I have never seen the railroad train running when riding my favorite train and was wondering if they are using different tracks. Perhaps I have just missed seeing the LIRR when riding the Sea Beach. Let me know will you? Or anyone else for that matter.
The tracks are now used by the New York and Atlantic Railway, which took over freight operations from the LIRR. They run only a few trains a week, but things may improve considerably if the cross harbor freight tunnel is ever built.
Regards.
They have been talking about that tunnel for over 75 years, along with the 2nd Ave Line Good luck if it is ever built/ Naw
Bob: Payday Monday. Get the assignments ready. I'm going to need a car, motel room and airfare. Time to lock and load. I will be off line this weekend by the way.
You're right. There are some people on this Earth that think of no one but themselves. Did this nitwit who passed gas into the motorman's cab while you were operating the train think that someone might be in the cab. I guess not. If he had to pass gas he should have done it into the passenger area of the car that he was riding on and not into the cab. Maybe someone like that should have beta-mercaptan sprayed into their face (It smells like skunk spray.) and maybe the person will get the message.
BMTJeff
I sure that it was Zman179 who came up with that part about being a squirrel seeking his "biweekly nut" with the T. A.
-Robert A. King
Could be ... I knew it was one of the regulars here whose posts I *never* miss ... I enjoyed the hell out of that one for its particular grain of truth. :)
The TA shoud fire that T/O Does anyone agree?
I sure as hell don't agree!
The T/O was having a bad day and was probably tired. It's not like he was trying to personally insult Qtraindash7, he was just being annoyed in the same manner that you would mutter "asshole" under your breath if someone in a rush bumped you as they ran up the stairs.
You can't go arond firing people for being tired and annoyed.
Dan
You want to fire a train operator for being rude on one occasion? I remember a poll the Daily News did back in 1990 or '89 when "Token" the dog got run over by an A train and killed. The poll was "should the T/O lose the job. Over 50 percent of New Yorkers said the T/O should. Meanwhile around the same time while I was walking around my C train at Columbus Circle to find out why it went into emergency, only to discover human remains beneath it, some rude passengers claimed "if the guy is dead, why are we still here". Lets fire some rude passengers instead and give the T/O a break. I think you wouldn't want me working for you.
Everyone needs some civility. You can't please all the people all the time. It is my impression that there are individuals in leadership position in the TA that are making the operation of the subway more complicated than it has to be. This only to support there needless position and outragous salaries. In the end the crew members are stressed out and sometime it comes to the surface. As hard as we try we all have a not so perfect day and a great deal of tolorance will go a long way to making every day more enjoyable.
If a passenger either a fan or just a plain rider gets in a crewmember's space while operating and doing there job it could bring on what might seem like a rude response but the MM (TO) is responsible for the safe operation of the train in his/her charge. That is Foremost. It is a monsterous responsibility. Just look back at the consequences at the slightest ripple in the system.
Burn the Slow Orders and Wrap It.
Curt
The day Token met his untimely end there was a signal maintainer struck and killed by a G train around Woodhaven Blvd. Token made page 3 in the daily news, Signal maintainer made page 21. As to the original poster in this thread - I don't think the posting warrants a serious response.
If this T/O does this constantly, then yes. If it is a one time thing, then no.
Besides that T/O Is a jackass
Fire the T/O? For that??? NO WAY!!!! If every person who had a bad day was fired, the unemployment rate would be 100% in this country. I know I would have been fired from my job a long time ago if that was the case!!
I have a suitable punishment for that T/O. Make him work on the "D" line running a train of R-68 "Hippos". Then he might develop a little patience.
BMTJeff
Hilarious! :-0
I'm glad that you like my punishment for Rude T/Os.
BMTJeff
If I posted a message everytime I was insulted by SEPTA personnel, I would be in a lot more peoples' killfiles than I am now.
I wrote this post in response to the idea of preserving a Boeing LRV, which came up quite far down in the reverse threaded listing, so I've reposted my message in a new thread to keep the discussion current.
----------
Boeings...
Some in Boston were retrofitted with poles to run on now abandoned sections of streetcar network that didn't have pantograph tolerable wire. Unless the pole modification was undone at a later date, that
takes car of that right there. Even if the poles were removed, the remodification probably wouldn't be terribly hard as it would just be a repetition of what was done at an earlier time.
The bigger problem I can forsee with Boeings, or a CLRV, or a K car would be keeping them in operating condition. All of those 1970s vintage streetcars rely heavily on electronics in terms of static
converters (taking the place of the MG set) and propulsion control (taking place of the various traditional resistance based control arrangements). I'm not sure that trolley museums have the expertise to look
after such electronics. My other primary concern is the availability of electronic components meeting the required specifications in future as technology changes, for example, thyristor chopper control has fallen
out of voge and more or less been replaced with IGBT based AC traction equipment so once the spare parts market for chopper control equipment dries up... These issues pertaining to the electronics obviously also applies to the preservation any subway cars fitted with similar electronic systems. At present, the UMTA SOAC cars are the only vehicles of this nature that I know of which are being preserved in a museum, and, as far as I know, they don't run. If that is the case, I suspect it may be in large part due to the electronics issues.
Has anybody given further thought to the preservation of streetcars/'LRV's or subway cars that are highly dependent upon advanced electronic systems?
-Robert King
Good points, Robert.
We have the SOAC cars at Seashore. True, they don't run, but that's for a variety of reasons. I know that the project sponsor has indeed played with the electronics, and he understands them well (he's an electrical engineer/computer science).
Seashore is considering acquiring a Boeing LRV (the car has been preserved with the original plug doors; it was taken off the road before the rebuild). The project sponsors are an ex- and current MBTA employee, each of whom has considerable experience with this car type. But you are absolutely correct -- this "new generation" of streetcar requires different expertise. The funny thing is that I don't worry about expertise for this newer generation car -- on the other hand, we're losing the generation that had direct experience with the classic trolleys, and those skills must be passed down to this (and future) generations.
Good point, Todd. I doubt that there are too many current NYCT employees that can do much with a propulsion system that's not SCM based or the the Westinghouse equuivalent. Show-em unit switches and watch em sweat.
Heh. The biggest problem in major power chopper circuits is having spare circuit boards (when resistors go, they'll burn the boards) and keeping spare semiconductors on the shelf for when you blow them.
The biggest problem though is when you replace a big semiconductor after troubleshooting the driver electronics, everything checks out just dandy and when you power it, wawoom, same failure again because some stupid little diode somewhere wasn't shorted but rather went a bit funny and fails only under power.
You guys are right though, high current, high voltage semiconductors can be a nightmare even if you HAVE the parts and thus any plans to do something like this should be backed up with a major inventory of spare parts. Unless you want to push it around with a loco of course.
My biggest concern about maintaining an inventory of spare power (by this I mean high voltage, high current) electronics parts is that they typically don't last too well over the years on the shelf and overhaulable either when compared to something mechanical.
I'll cook up a reasonable example useing the Boeing LRV and the PCC:
Low voltage power supply system:
PCC streetcar - Motor Generator set.
Boeing LRV - Static converter circuitry.
The PCC MG set is quite chemically inert over time, and if it develops an electrical or mechanical fault, it can be rewound with new wire, adjusted as necessary, or given a thorough rebuilding if needed, and it will work fine in a PCC after spending half a century on a shelf.
The Boeing's LVPS/static converter is stuffed with semiconductors which can't be overhauled, but individual pieces must be replaced. These electronic components aren't exactly stable over time; capacitors, for example, quite often go bad with age and lack of use (having first hand experience with them misbehaving in old stereo/hifi equipment I've restored). Occasionally, they can be salvaged by carefully charging them up gradually over a lengthy period of time, but most often they must be replaced. Basically, my big concern can be summarized in two parts:
1) Electronic equipment on the Boeing I used in my example can be expected to fail eventually, and parts kept in storage for a long period of time may become useless over that time, or will fail very quickly if they are still functional by the time they are installed
This means that fresh replacements will likely be needed, especially since old electronic parts can't be overhauled to bring them back to as new condition.
2) The big spare parts market may have dried up by then due to changes in the technology or equipment used on newer vehicles so those parts may no longer be available fresh, necessitating the use of old stock parts. Which brings us back to square one...
-Robert A. King
Capacitors, like batteries, don't have much foa shelf life *BUT* there is a way to get around this too. Semiconductors on the other hand generally can sit for 20-30 years without harm as long as they aren't subjected to temperature extremes. (above 110 and below freezing)
The secret to keeping batteries and capacitors (here, the problem is a chemical paste and the need to keep the plates "formed") is to take them off the shelf once every year or so and apply a charge to them to reform the plates ... pain in the butt, but will keep them preserved to a greater or lesser degree. Electrolytics in particular at voltages above 100 WV are hard to find these days but if you can charge them up for a few hours to reform the plate oxides, you'll find they'll last near forever as long as they don't dry out. But nobody thinks to charge them to reform them before it's too late. That's the problem there.
Electrolytics above 100WV are *easy* to find. Plenty of places sell them.
Resistors also drift and die, but they too are easy to get.
It's specialized stuff like coils and transformers and such - but these can be rewound sometimes.
If there's demand for a part, it can be had somehow - there's currently a small group out with early color TV sets. The big trouble is that the picture tubes, mostly 15GP22 and RCA developmental types (direct 15GP22 replacements), are prone to going bad. Believe it or not, they're trying to get together a few companies and try to rebuild their tubes
I remember those ... and the 21AP22's as well. The round ones with the metal shroud. When I was talking about the over 100WV's though, I was thinking more of direct replacements for those Mallory four-sections, you know, the 100/60/20/20 at 350's and the like. Knew a guy up here who kept all of his stock alive by forming them up once a year from one of those old cats-eye capacitor checkers and damn if they weren't still good 25 years later. But a lot of those lytics now sitting in the back won't take forming current any longer. I've bought quite a few of them over the last few years. All dried out and won't come up anywhere near their original values.
If there's an incentive with hard to get older parts that are there now, they CAN be preserved without having to resort to custom. Nothing I hated more than having to put a tubular underneath a multisection on those older chassis that didn't have quite enough room under there.
But it's going to be interesting indeed down the road to see how museums will handle these newer cars with computers running everything and the very short lifetime of those kind of components ...
[But it's going to be interesting indeed down the road to see how museums will handle these newer cars with computers running everything and the very short lifetime of those kind of components ... ]
There probably will be someone around with new old stock.
Had to help someone to fix an old Neve automated console, and believe me there was someone out there who had some old 1k DRAMs in stock.
Arti
Heh. Rupert LIVES! Yeah, I remember years ago when CBS wouldn't let you put in anything BUT ... heh. Then again, they paid real money back then too. :)
That thing still sounded great. Didn't cost the guy as little as a Mackie, but not a small fortune as it used to.
[I remember years ago when CBS wouldn't let you put in anything BUT ... heh. ]
Even in their video studios? My experience is that usually in video post studios the audio stuff is greatly not cared about.
Arti
Back in the 1970's and early 1980's, putting in anything BUT a Neve was Tiffany heresy ... even if the ops had no idea of what to do with it. You'd have to be counselled by your steward if you didn't bow before one and genuflect as you passed a control room that had one. And they all did at the time. Then the power supply problems and the ground loops began in earnest and McCurdy managed to sell them a few. :)
The hot setup for replaceing multisections, today, is to get a bunch of rated tubulars that will fit IN the multisection. You then pry the thing open, pull the old guts out and clean it (NO PCBs in there, as some people think - it's just an inert borax solution, I believe.) Then mount the tubulars into there, solder them to the terminals, and button it up.
Bingo - tubular looks, no having to mount terminal strips, and modern capacitors inside. Pour wax as a sealent through a hole in the wafer on the bottom, and you have a solid cap that'll last for decades :)
As for TVs - I've got a 50's zenith I'm moving over to my place tonight. Needs various repairs, but the CRT looks bright and good.
Round color CRTs seem to have gone by the late 50's or so - as were round black and white ones. The metal varieties (16GP4?) were also gone by then. You can still get those tubes rebuilt, but the metal ones aren't always sucessful :(
I've never seen a metal CRT, but they sure sound cool :)
The metal CRT's had a habit of biting ya. But ya never had to worry about the aquadag grounding. Yeah, if I was restoring a set for a museum, I'd do the carving out of the gourds - in a repair shop however, the operating rulebook was "glue it down and SHIP IT." Heh. You wouldn't last long if you took your time on esthetics. On the other hand, I had a buddy Bruce in the Bronx who rebuilt antique radios - Atwater Kents, Crosleys, Dumonts, Globetrotters and the like. He was a fussy cuss. For what he would charge for restored radios, there was always time to do things right, even if we had to wind our own coils scatterwound. And yes, many a "paper .001" would get hollowed out and replaced with a ceramic inside and rewaxed.
I guess it all depends on its value - to a repair customer, working again was good enough - for the serious collectors, anything that didn't look completely original wasn't good at all. :)
Well, I'm hardly a serious collector, but I see the appeal in carving out can units - you don't have to relocated masses of wireing, which, on a tight chassis, can be a royal PITA. Not to mention finding spots for those caps and terminal strips.
So, I like the concept not just for looks, but because it can ultimately make things easier for me...
Ah yes, I've heard metal tubes not so kindly being referred to as "the serviceman's friend"
My current (summer) project is a '57 Zenith I saved fro the trash bin. It looks like it has a rebuilt tube in it, and a new yoke and vert output. The yoke doesn't look like it fits too well :(
I hope that that wasn't the reason the set was junked. Right now, there are a few electrolytics that are going to need to be replaced before I can do any serious debugging to it.
In addition to having a DMM (and I really ought to go buy a nice Fluke one of these days...) I've got a (beautiful) old Tek 545A scope with a 1A1 and a CA plugin. Not your average service scope :) And a camera for it too :)
I need a scanner so I can post up the pics one of these days :)
Heh. Well, I don't want to lead this even further away from the rails but yeah, if I had the time, I'd probably go to all that trouble if it was my own set ... but in a repair shop situation, you get paid by the pound. You do the fastest work that solves the problem and you have to move on. Doesn't leave much time for esthetics if you wanna eat. That's why I got out of electronics years ago. Nowadays everything's a throw-away anyway and the old designs where you had room to work are no more. I've been amazed often at how well the loading belt for most VCR's is buried the last few years - 4 hours just to change a damned belt. Not gonna happen.
And yes, nothing like 25,000 volts to wake ya up in the morning. :)
Of course, that pales in comparison to 50kV and up on a TV transmitter. That was the last gig I did in electronics as chief engineer of a TV station. The guy who replaced me got only half as much as the piddle they were paying me at the time.
Sounds like fun. I stick with the stereo equipment myself. After having sent an old reel to reel sky high because I only replaced some of the electrolytic capacitors in it and didn't catch one or two others that were on their last legs, the first thing I do in terms of electronics after checking for bad (frayed, loose connections etc.) wiring is replacing all capacitors. Those large electrolytics make an awful mess when they go, and the SMELL is abominable and takes forever to go away.
-Robert King
when i was a student, we blew one up in the physics lab that was rated for 12V and we put some 28V across it. it was a discharging experiment and the thing blew the cap wide open. it was funny cuz it actually looked quite good, the blown up bit where the metal had fractured along pre-stamped lines
lexcie
Nothing smells worse than the old SELENIUM rectifier plates. Reminds me of that lunch spot at Stillwell. :)
[Electrolytics in particular at voltages above 100 WV are hard to find these days but if you can charge them up for a few hours to reform the plate oxides, you'll find they'll last near forever as long as they don't dry out. But nobody thinks to charge them to reform them before it's too late. That's the problem there. ]
There's a large market for high voltage electolytics, misc power supplies and converters. Fortunately the size of those has gone down, so unless you have a compelling reason to use original parts, you can find functional replacements.
Arti
Repairing rail cars is a bit more of a challenge owing to the tendency of railcar makers to use really old stuff. Fortunately there's still an abundant supply of 2N3055H's but some of those SCR's for control are already hard to come by. GE got out of the business a LONG time ago and they didn't exactly have their encapsulation process all that together at the time. International Rectifier is gone also I think ...
[SCR's for control are already hard to come by. ]
Perhaps Chinese or Russians have something, AFAIK they are currently the only source for tubes.
Arti
That does it, we're going to have to have you followed as a pinko sympathizer. Heh. Haven't you heard? The coal war is on again ...
Better LED than RED ... oh ... wait a minute ...
[Better LED than RED ... oh ... wait a minute ... ]
Or as TA seems to think better LED is RED.
Arti
Wait for the budget cuts, coming soon ... I'd be willing to bet they'll try to match the route signs and make every single line on the map red and pat themselves on the back for spending less on ink. Some of us remember when subway maps were three colors - black, red and green. :)
The funny thing is that the interior display is bicolor.
Arti
Lemme see now ... black, red, green ... ayup ... happy days are here again ... Radio Shack musta had a special. :)
The TA is consolidating their elect. sign O/H in one shop in Woodside. There buses all use the same one now.
Mr t__:^)
Wow ... well, I got out of there when signs were still roll curtains and the busses were experimenting with those air-powered flippy things. LED's are nice and all, but I'll bet they really don't stand out in real light. :)
One thing about the electro/mechanical/pneumatic control system
era is that the parts can generally be fabricated again from
drawings. The operation of the system, in the absence of any
documentation, can usually be reverse-engineered by simple
visual examination. With electronic systems, this will not be
the case. The key to preserving cars like this in operating condition
will be to acquire a LOT of spare parts and ALL of the
documentation. At some point far down the road, when all
of the spare parts have blown up or been lost, hopefully the
documentation will still be around. It won't be affordable to
make exact replacement parts, but they could be black-boxed with
functional replacements, as long as the knowledge of what the
black boxes are supposed to do hasn't been lost to time!
Electronics of that era were most likely to use discrete logic and transistors and simple stuff. It's not like today where everything is crammed onto a single chip that's surface mounted. The 7400 logic series, and stuff like that, though dated, still retains the enough popularity and of course, discretes like resistors and capacitors are still around.
The power semiconductors are a problem, possibly, but realize that SCRs have applications beyond transit, and are still quite available, if not always in a direct replacement.
IGBTs are still a new thing - in fact, I don't think many locomotives or transit equipment really use them yet.
And anyway, people still use tubes :) So it's not a hopeless situation by any means...
Tubes are actually easier to replicate than semiconductors.
True, 7400 series stuff is still around, mostly. But there was
a logic family before TTL that was popular....escaping me now, but
it was called HTL (high threshold logic?) or something like that.
Used +/-15V levels. Can't get that anymore. I remember coming across
that repairing an industrial electronics board a number of
years back. At least, though,
if the boards used standard parts, then you could in theory trace
out the circuit and figure out what it is supposed to do. You could
cobble together a functional replacement. Picture
a museum 100 years from now trying to repair an R142 propulsion
system. There's so much more going on in proprietary software.
If you didn't preserve the documentation, you'll never figure it
out.
Assuming the documentation wasn't obfuscated to hell. Try writing code for Microsoft when so much is completely UNdocumented and what little is, turns out to be LIES. :)
"Nobody see schematic" ...
And that's the big reason why I got disinterested in computer programming.
-Robert King
It can be pure torture often ... but when you live up here in the woods, you either write code or you milk cows. I'll milk Billy, thank ya. :)
To Robert, et., al., a very enjoyable group of posts. You guys made my day, thanks for the course on electronics 101 !
Mr t__:^)
The folks at the Oregon Electric Railway Historical Society just might be the first to find out, as they took delivery of MUNI 1213 in November 2000. It ran when they loaded it at Geneva (it was moved under power to the loading point, then separated into the two halfs at the articualtion joint. It was reassembled at their site at Brooks, OR.
That is interesting (I can't believe that Boeings are gradually going to streetcar museums and the CLRVs are expected to be around for 15 or 20 years more), is there any word on whether or not it was able to run after reassembly?
-Robert King
Don't know. I got the info from their newsletter, which I get as an exchange publication since I happen to be the Editor of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's Live Wire. If and when Halton County gets a CLRV\ALRV around 2025 or so, we might have more info on maintaining these elctronic beasts.
Why do express sometimes run on the local tracks, still stopping at only express stations?
Yesterday around 3:15, I rode a Q from Kings Highway to Prospect Park. It ran express on the local track. There didn't seem to be any sort of track work or obstruction on the express track, and, of course, all through trains must switch to the express track before PP regardless. (I was actually hoping we'd continue on the local track and continue to Franklin. Fat chance, that.) We had to slow down at each bypassed station and, by the end, we were trailing behind a D (or so the frequent stops and waits would imply -- I wasn't up front).
So -- why is this done?
Other than GO's, it's done if there are switch problems, or if there is a blockage or congestion on the express track. Chances are that there was a temporary blockage (i.e.door problems) that cleared up before you reached the location.
So why didn't my Q train switch back to the express track once the blockage was cleared up? If there was anything wrong with the express track between KH and PP when I went by, it wasn't visible to me.
Speaking of invisible blockages -- this reminds me of the time I was going to a 5:00 appointment near 103rd on the 1/9. After pulling out of 96th, we stopped for a few minutes, and the C/R then announced that due to a stalled train on the local track, we'd be running express -- next stop, 137th. Suffice it to say that 75% of the passengers on the train had no interest in going that far north, but by that point we were trapped. (If the service change had been announced while we were still at 96th, we could have pursued alternate options -- in my case, walking a few extra blocks; for those going further, taking the bus or waiting for an actual local.) By the time we got up to 137th, across to the other side, and back down to 103rd, I was 45 minutes late to my hour appointment. Needless to say, I didn't bother going, although I still had to pay $40 for the appointment (plus the unnecessary subway fare, plus the hour+ of my time to go absolutely nowhere). The connection is, of course, that the stalled train on the local track was of the invisible variety. One might even think that the invisible trains in these two stories are one and the same, but I don't think an invisible A-Division train could safely run on a B-Division line -- you know, the gap and all.
There was a blockage at the time (door trouble). Perhaps by the time the Q train in question got down the line via the local track, the problem had been rectified.
David
Sounds like a great name for a John Waters movie, "Door trouble" ...
I ran express on the local on Saturday on the "F", for 71 Street-Cont Ave to Roosavelt Ave. I was told that the tower person was out to lunch. They put front of an "R" running from Parson Ave do to a "GO" people on the platforms as we past were pissed, needlest to say I got a few fingers as I passed thur them. By time I got to Roosavelt Ave the tower peoson just got back from lunch, I then let her know that I was a "F" run express on the local. After Roosavelt Ave I had to run Local to 36th Street, then thur the new tracks.
Robert
You are on a Q train at Sheepshead bay. Another Q (only 6-8 headway AM rush) reports door trouble at Newkirk.
Your Q will get the lineup at Kings Hwy for the local on the assumption that the Q at Newkirk will be sitting awhile. Remember the time difference is only 6 minutes so if that Q with the door problems takes awhile or never gets indication and has to discharge your all setup to pass him.
Now you reach Kings Hwy and continue on the loacal track, slowing but not stopping at 3 local stations (catching up on that stalled Q).
While doing that they found out that a AA battery was in the track of the door. Removed the battery and the stalled Q moves on. You reach Newkirk and it is not there, though your station dwell time is up a little as the C/R is saying your making express stops on the local track.
At this point you won't catch that Q train that had problems so it looks like you got the local track for no reason. But it was better safe than sorry to route you local just in case that Q train had to discharge or was stuck longer at Newkirk.
Remember there is no interlocking until Prospect Park after Kings Hwy.
I was once on a Q train forced to take the local lineup (and ran express) from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach. There was no problem on the line. The T/O correctly called command center and told them he had been given the wrong lineup. He was forced to accept the wrong lineup anyway.
--Mark
To quote our resident Drain Dude, "A wrong line up is never given, only taken"...
How did you personally feel about that? Did you feel more important as you passed through local stations. Do you think the Passengers on the bypassed stations had a lose of self esteem. Does the reverse happen when on an express that is passed by a local, do you feel threatened in you social status?
This is not directed at you personnelly but the global you. All of people kind.
I feel Road Rage is a product of our life style, a constant game or challange, a competition . Going local or express is a change in the rules after the game has started. Some one feels cheated, while others get a feeling of one ups manship.
Comments please
avid
I wonder how many people take it as, "as long as I GET there?"
I four one. Point of fact. Thursday a.m. At Euclid Ave. The last local A of the night is delayed for a sick passenger in the rear car. We wait , we wait. An Announcement adviseing passengers to take C on the local tracks. Big Stampede. I sit tight. The C (first local C to begin day} leaves. In comes A from Lefferts, First A express of the day. What a tactical coup on my part.
avid
Oh! My mistake. I had assumed there were switches back to the express track at the other express stations, as is the case in most of the system. I wasn't at the railfan window so I couldn't keep an eye on things.
There had been no trains through Kings Highway for a while, but it's certainly possible that an earlier Q had gotten stuck at Newkirk or Church (and hence unstuck before we reached it).
Zman pretty much covered the possibilities in a nutshell. I've been on a few rerouted expresses which ran express on the local track, most notably on D trains on two separate occasions heading southbound along CPW. Leaving 145th St., both trains merged with the mainline local track instead of the express track. I should point out that on both occasions it was rush hour. There was an A train alongside us on the express track the second time. Of course, the T/O beep-beeped each time we approached a local stop. Call it an interesting variation to an otherwise boring ride.
I also rode on a rerouted F train once. It ran express on the local track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. It marked the first time I saw the local stops on that leg of the Queens line.
Then there was the rerouted 3 train north of 14th St. On that occasion, there was a work train on the uptown express track at 34th St.
I saw a Manhattan-bound 6 express train pass through the Whitlock Avenue station. Other express trains follwoing it ran on the express track. I also saw R142A cars 7331-7340 in service.
When exactly does the peak-direction J/Z run express? The schedules are silent.
Does the reverse-peak-direction J/Z also run skip-stop? The schedule implies not (by giving effective times only towards Manhattan in the morning and towards Jamaica in the afternoon) but everything else implies that skip-stop service is in both directions (and I don't remember from personal experience).
In the morning,
J leaves Parsons @ 714, 727, every 10 mins to 817.
Z leaves Parsons @ 721, 732, every 10 mins to 812.
Return (northbound) J/Z service makes all stops, however all Z service "drops out" at Eastern Parkway and is then sent to East New York Yard to be used for afternoon service or other yard purposes.
In the afternoon,
J leaves Broad @ 1700, every 10 mins to 1740.
Z leaves Broad @ 1655, every 10 mins to 1745.
Z trains enter service heading southbound at either Eastern Pkwy or at Chauncey St depending on the location of the put-in in ENY Yard, but all trains are listed on the schedule as starting out of Eastern Pkwy. All southbound J/Z service makes all local stops.
Z Northbound service on arrival at Parsons either is layed up to East New York Yard or the signs are changed to J for service.
Interesting arrangement.
(A bit pathetic, though, IMO -- skip-stop service lasts under an hour in each direction per day.)
Are those also the hours for express service?
Express service operates between Marcy Av and Myrtle Av between (approximate times):
To Manhattan: 6 am to 12:30 pm
To Queens: 12:31 pm to 8 pm
I think they're also to skip Bowery when the M runs.
That used to be true. But now all J/Z trains stop at the Bowery at all times.
When did they stop skipping between Bway/Myrtle and Marcy Ave? And why?
Carl M.
It's been like that for many many many years.
Better question:
When did they stop skipping between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway? When the three Manhattan-bound platforms were closed for construction? Funny, the GO implies skip-stop is in operation -- but, as I've learned, accurate GO texts are hard to come by.
IIRC express service between Myrtle Ave. and Eastern Parkway ended in 1976 when the original KK/K was dropped. J skip-stop service was implemented at the same time.
The Manhattan bound skip stop service is suspended between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Av as long as Gates & Chauncey are closed for construction. Queens bound skip stop service is unaffected and operates as usual.
My Z yesterday afternoon made all stops from Myrtle to Eastern Parkway (and the C/R clearly announced in advance that it would). The little yellow signs approaching each station that (I take it) serve to remind the T/O whether to stop had all been replaced with "J/Z" signs, although that may date from when the Queens-bound platforms were closed.
Interesting arrangement.
(A bit pathetic, though, IMO -- skip-stop service lasts under an hour in each direction per day.)
Are those also the hours for express service?
The Z schedule and equipment cycle kind of mimics the old #14 local.
Even then, the skip-stop pattern was for only an hour. Beyond that, service at any skipped staion would be less than 5 trains per hour, so they really can't expand the Z window.
Wasn't there a skip-stop service in the late 70s or early 80s on the line as well? I remember reading maps that had (A) stations, (B) stations, and (A,B) stations, in strikingly similar layout to today's skip-stop arrangement.
Sure did. They had square white signs with either an A or B fastened to the gates at the end of the stations to refresh the T/O's memory
Avenue H is interrupted by the D/Q tracks. Does the Avenue H station lead to Avenue H to the east, to the west, or both? (I need to get to I in the 20's and I'd like to get off at H instead of J for a change.)
it leads to west side of ave H towards Coney Island Ave
it leads to west side of ave H towards Coney Island Avethere is an underpass at street level, which makes a ppassage wat to Ave H east
Thanks, I didn't know about the underpass. (It's a pedestrian underpass, I take it. I know cars can't get through -- I once tried.)
OH. So that was YOUR car I once saw on the tracks...;-)
BMTman
OK guys totally unrelated, A car just blew up near my house I heard it and then heard it on my radio scanner, time now is 2158 Hrs it happened 30 seconds in the past, just in the neighborhood we are speaking of,
actually you can go either direction by foot from the Ave H Station, only cars can t go thru the (under) the tracks.
Maybe that same guy who cut one on that E train ripped another one by that auto and a spark set it off.
This could become a citywide problem! Gasseus People Gang, I'd start getting worried right about now.
The Avenue H station house is east of the right-of-way. However there is an underpass, so you can go in either direction.
To get to Avenue I in the East 20s, you will have to walk to Ocean Avenue to cross over the Bay Ridge LIRR line, which runs between H and I.
And be sure to take a few minutes to check out the century-old (almost) Avenue H station house.
Thanks. Avenue H sounds a lot more interesting than the Avenue J station I've always used. I didn't realize there was an actual stationhouse there.
Crossing the tracks at Ocean isn't a problem since my destination is in the 20's. (OTOH, those tracks are a pain when driving from Manhattan. Avenue I is closed in in the two useful directions. The obvious alternate, Avenue J, is an awful street to drive on -- even, as I discovered this morning, at 6:45am -- and is a block out of the way; the only other decent route from Ocean Parkway is Beverl(e)y to Ocean to I. Not that I'll be in the neighborhood much after this week; my grandmother who lived there passed away on Sunday.)
Since you're not familiar with Avenue H, check out The Little Station in the Woods.
When I used to drive through the area, I always took Avenue K.
Sorry about your Grandma.
I've seen your article. Somehow it never quite clicked that it was referring to that station. I'll check it out this afternoon.
Avenue K is quick but it's one more block too far, and there isn't evne a left turn there from Ocean Parkway.
NOTE to Paul and David Greenberger: An overpass/footbridge was installed at the end of E. 17th Street over the Bay Ridge ROW so that you can walk through to Avenue I w/o assessing another street after existing the Avenue H stationhouse.
I believe this project was finished two or three months ago, and is a new innovation to the area.
BMTman
It is a replacement for a grey metal bridge that spanned the tracks at that point up until the 1970s(?). It was also pedestrian-only. You can probably see the remnants of the Manhattan Junction connection from the bridge.
There is also a pedestrian bridge at E 15 St. That replaced another pedestrian bridge which was a narrower version of the style of overpasses that existed over the ROW for auto traffic.
I'm assuming the overpass at E 14 still exists. If not, the area bounded by Foster Av, Ocean Av, Av J and CI Av is divided into four impassable quadrants by the Brighton and Bay Ridge lines, with Av H station at the center.
ofcourse Foster avenue passes over the line, all those avenues before it do, Newkirk ave, 18th AVe, DItmas ave, etc at ave h there is only a pedestrian UNDERPASS, and ave J goes under the line with vehicular traffic. the Birghton line is not a problem, only for certain streets, like Ave L
18th Ave ends at Coney Island Ave, Ave L goes thru, you may have meant Ave H and also Glenwood Road Deads end on both sides of the Brighton
What with all this talk about people run over by subway trains, it's quite an irony that I saw the aftermath of just such an incident this evening, albeit on the LIRR rather than the subway.
I got the 5:23 to Long Beach out of Penn, changing to the Ronkonkoma/Greenport train at Jamaica. We proceeded uneventfully as far as the scheduled stop at Hicksville. It then became apparent that something was up, as we stayed at the station for several minutes. The engineer gave one of the "on Four" p.a. messages to the conductors. The conductor then announced that we'd be delayed a couple of minutes by a "red signal" up ahead. Very soon after, with unusual candor, the conductor announced that there had been a fatality at Bethpage, and that we'd be proceeding on the westbound track. The engineer then announced that we'd be putting down rescue boards, but almost immediately said to cancel that.
We finally left Hicksville after about a ten-minute delay and proceeded at reduced speed to the Bethpage stop. The incident then came into view, near the second grade crossing east of the station (not Stewart Avenue, which runs right next to the station, but the next one, the name of which I don't know). Several Nassau and MTA police cars were stopped at the crossing, along with an ambulance, and much of the area was blocked off by yellow tape. About 40 feet further east, by the fence along the south side of the ROW, several uniformed police and what I assume were plainclothes officers were standing around the body. It appeared to be a white or Hispanic male, lying face down and slighty turned toward his right. The body wasn't covered, but my view was obscured somewhat by the police officers. His shirt was pulled up, exposing his back, which was very abraded and dirty. I couldn't see his head. Some distance farther east, the train that apparently had hit the man was stopped on the eastbound track. It was a diesel, probably the 5:10 dual-mode to Speonk. We then resumed normal speed and arrived in Ronkonkoma about 15 minutes late.
Just the name is enough to raise eyebrows and cause double-takes.
Can anybody shed some light on this place, other than the fact that it is a PANYNJ facility on Staten Island, accessible by the S46 bus?
Thanks.
I believe it's a data center/office complex used a lot for disaster recovery locations.
It is/was also the name of an e-mail listserv provider, but I doubt there's a connection. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's an office park that primarily serves telecom providers. It's a large-scale satelite uplink/downlink facility, AT&T has offices there, as does the postal service (REMITCO), Merril Lynch, and a few others.
-Hank
I was not able to attend the public meeting on the "below 63rd St" segment of the Second Av subway. Did anybody posting on this site go, and could that person please post here and tell us about it?
I sent in a 2-page letter to be included in the Suppl. EIS, and regret not being able to attend in person.
Hi Ron,
I was planning to go, but got bogged down at work.
Too bad -- I would have sent them a letter too if I'd known I wouldn't be able to make it.
Greetings,
Spent a little while observing trains on the #6 today (no pictures unfortunately) while waiting for someone at Grand Central to head to the Yankees game.. (they lost)
Anyway, train sets observed on the #6 were...
7221-7230
7231-7240
7241-7250
7271-7280
7281-7290
Earlier in the day I took the #2/#3 from Wall Street to Hoyt St. and back and didn't observe any R142 trains on the #2.
-Dave
Monday there was supposed to be 10 R142a's in operation back to back, I was on the 4 an noticed quite a few 6 intervals with R142 equipment. How did everything go?
The R-142 sucks. They are not being used because the brakes suck and need to be upgraded or replaced.
A-MEN!
the word "suck" appears twice in an r-142 post.
Things Are GOOD.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Is this all you do? Sit here and wait for an anti R142 post so you can support it as religious scripture? Instead of sitting on your ass, you should be out riding those rusted pieces of sh*t. But, I guess there's no teaching a dumb dog new tricks.
>>> I guess there's no teaching a dumb dog new tricks. <<<
Ah, once again we get a carefully reasoned response to the original insightful technical description of the problem. No wonder we all learn so much from this board. :-)
Tom
Well thank you for the analysis. Too bad you aren't an expert or anything and are just rehashing what has been said for a few weeks now mostly by fools holding on to the past they can't reclaim.
Anyone reading the stories that came out two years ago about the wiring problems at Bombardier's upstate plant and the fact that the MTA wasn't accepting the in-progress work on the R-142s at the time could have guessed this is what would happen on the 2/5 lines. But New York State put a premium on building at least some of the new cars inside the state -- both to increase jobs upstate and to incrase the votes for the politicians who approve the plan from voters upstate.
When you put politics above everything else, you end up with sub-standard work, because it's a given that the quality in-state doesn't have to be as good as the quality done outside the state's boundaries, because the people involved at the state level are not going to take away Bombardier's contract, cost the Platssburgh area a bunch of jobs and possibly give Andrew Cuomo extra votes in the 2002 guberatorial election (and the reverse would have been true eight years ago when Andy's dad was running against Pataki)
He wasn't talking about the R142. He was talking about the R142A, the Kawasaki cars. The Kawasaki cars do not suck. When I went home for spring break, there were plenty of R142A's in service on the 6 train. They all seemed to be running fine! They don't suck! Just because the Bombardier cars are having problems, don't write off the whole R142 series! From what I've read here, the Kawasaki cars are still doing well and since I'm going home tomorrow, I'm going to do some R142A riding this weekend. What bothers me is that the Bombardier cars are the ones having most of the problems and are the ones being assigned to the 2 and 5 lines. But I kind of expected this to happen because the 2 and 5 trains are cursed. That damn curse on the 2 and 5 just won't go away. Why couldn't the 2 and 5, or just the 2, have gotten the Kawasaki cars?
If you do or don't like the R142/R142As, follow Maurice Baker's example...back up your answer with concrete info! Just saying they are good/bad and bichering back and forth is not a good idea...Dave has already warned the board of this kind of behavior....do we really want this site to shut down?? Lets think, people. -Nick
I don't see any problems with R-142 #2's post.
You seem to be fanning the flames in search of a fire.
"You seem to be fanning the flames in search of a fire."
Nope, not at all...I want to prevent that sorta stuff from occuring. -Nick
once again, bombardier cars don't have alot of problems. the only problem thats keeping them back is the breaking system. the other problems that were happening was from kawasaki i.e.(doors not closing, messed up auto announcements and maps, shoddy build quality)these problems are quick to fix. breaking system needs to be altered thats why they are taking so long, however the next Bom R142 to hit service is between mid may to early june. don't believe me? ask a worker at either E. 180th or 207th.
Dave,
How long were you waiting at Grand Central? At what intervals were the R142s coming (minutes/# of trains in-between), and in what directions? -Nick
from 5:45pm to 6:10pm. Both directions (didn't write down which were which, sorry)
-Dave
Thats ok, Dave. :-) But wow, 5 in a 20 minute period....not bad at all!! -Nick
yo dave
you are missing a set, 7291-7300
Didn't spot it, didn't report it.
-Dave
According to a MBTA a pres release located at on the MBTA website listed below the new commuter rail platform at JFK/UMass will open on Monday it should provide some relief for the Red Line.
MBTA ANNOUNCES NEW COMMUTER RAIL STATION AT JFK/UMASS STATION
Good news for a very useful commuter line -esp. in light of the NIMBY garbage which MBTA had to overcome to open the line.
One of the big advantages of this new stop will be to serve the nearby Bayside Expo Center, which on weekends brings highway traffic to a stop with the huge crowds some shows draw.
Also opening Monday is the new "Anderson Regional Transportation Center" in Woburn, less than a mile from the Mishawum station (which will close, sort of). I (and many of my fellow commuters) are not thrilled, as this will cost us some money: the parking fee goes from $1/day to $2.50/day. It will also add about 10 minutes driving each way to my commute (getting there by road is not easy). I say that Mishawum will close, sort of, in that the parking lot will close, but three reverse-commute trains each way will still stop there to serve the reverse commuters who work in the nearby hotels, factories, and the shopping mall. The current plan is for a shuttle bus service to be devised from Anderson RTC, and to fully close Mishawum within six months.
Id really like to see the new JFK/Umass station.
STORY about politicians jumping on the election year transit bandwagon.
Peace,
ANDEE
We know what that is, upstate we call it "fresh country scent" which we acumulate in the barn ditches all winter and spread on the land come June ... MMM mmm MMM! Fresh country scent. Come on up here in a few months with the winders rolled down and cop a wiff. Heh. They're just spreading it a bit early down your way. :)
Oh damn, I thought you were talking about the Clintons. You probably were but didn't even know it yourself.
Aw c'mon ... we took them in fer krissakes ... the "fresh country scent" is now emanating from much further south than Chappaqua now. :)
(We know what that is, upstate we call it "fresh country scent" which we acumulate in the barn ditches all winter and spread on the land come June ... MMM mmm MMM! Fresh country scent. Come on up here in a few months with the winders rolled down and cop a wiff. Heh. They're just spreading it a bit early down your way.)
The interesting thing is, thanks to term limits we really are having an election in New York City this year. All the races are competitive. That's why they are paying attention to things like the transit system, the schools, the tax burden, and other things they noramlly don't give a damn about. Heck some of these eminences have discovered that there is a problem with the Manhattan Bridge! (Daily News headline -- "Bridge Fix From Hell."
Too bad we don't have real elections at the state level.
Or at the fed? Yeah, whatever happened to the "Term Limit Party" in DC? All of those "Contract on America" guys are now saying that it'd be a real real bad thing to ask them to leave after two terms now that they're getting their feet wet in MobOn Oil Co dollars. :)
I guess he hasn't been to Chambers Street yet.
The results of the Washington Post's contest, sending four reports to NYC.
Sorry to give away the surprise ending, but you can read the fairly entertaining details of how they reached their conclusion here.
Excellent article.
Taking the bus can be quite nervewracking, but in actually can be faster than the train. NYC-Boston for example.
Well, Air Man was lucky - his flight wasn't delayed. Try this race 10 more times and see how many times Air Man sits on the runway for an hour!
As for Acela, where did the reporter get his info that Acela was restricted to 125 mph?
WHo knows. I noticed that, too.
Excellent article.
Taking the bus can be quite nervewracking, but it actually can be faster than the train. NYC-Boston for example.
NYC-Boston is probably one of the best bus corridors in the U.S. Frequent non-stop (or almost non-stop) service that often makes it to the other end early, and a nice new bus terminal on the Boston end that's right at the train station. Plus, Amtrak service between NYC and Boston has traditionally been poor-- slow, expensive, unreliable, and infrequent-- so bus service comes out looking really good.
Rail has much more of an advantage NYC-DC, where even non-Metroliner/Express trains make the run an hour faster than the scheduled non-stop buses.
I also enjoyed the article, thanks Paul for the link to it.
As for the results, the folks on this site would respond when they hear the train won ... but of course.
Now if Air Man had had to wait for his luggage he wouldn't have even gotten there with 30 minutes to spare.
Mr t__:^)
Id like to ride a Bombardier high speed train than a Boeing 747-600, ford windstar, or Neoplan cityliner.
This A.M. I happened to take the F from Jay to 47-50 Rock center.
As we passed 2nd Ave I saw the swutches all torn up, a the aux Lights up all over. The GO calls for the F to be routed over the A from Jay to W4th. The tracks from Essex to the 6th ave are torn up as well.
Is all of this work in anticipation of the Manny B flip? As of now it appears as if only rail and some ties and switches were removed.
They will be replaced, won't they?
avid
Yes they are going to be replaced. They had to replace the older one. They also are replacing the one the the J/M/Z line contion.
Robert
The current or the removed ties had been in a gravel bed. Will the new ties be set in concret? Will we ever see concret ties in open cuts or above grade ROW?
avid
I can only confirm one part of your question.
Currently, all underground overhauled track and ties are set in concrete.
Is there or are they going to build an "office" for the Dispatcher/Asst. Dispatcher for the V there??
Or is the standard card table and folding chair being supplied? (Seen on a G.O. when N terminated at 42nd St.).
They should build something. This is a great message, I needed the laugh! You must be a dispatcher.
Thats a wobblely, uneven, stained folding table! There is an upcoming GOH for the table, new, raw, marine grade, rough cut 1" plywood top.
A splash of blue/orange paint for the metal parts. Due date 12/31/2001. Bids are being accepted from interested vendors.
avid
LOL! Hey, what about the milk crates!
Wow ... that Samsonite piece of crud is STILL making the rounds? Last seen at Stillwell. What am I bid? :)
The following is excerpted from an AP story in Tuesday's SI Advance:
Perfumed "air enhancer" was released into three busy London subway stations yesterday, the start of a monthlong trial to see whether a swet smell can improve the jorneys of subway passengers.
London Underground describes the fragrance as a "rich, rosy, jasmine bouquet with a touch of herbs" -- though one passenger likened it to a cross between perfume and insect repellent.....
London Underground describes the smell inside stations as a "mix of musty air and detergent." Grease, dust and body odor add to the miasma in the Tube's dank tunnels, many of which are more than 100 years old....
A coat of the slow-release freshener will be sprayed onto station floors each day after their early morning cleaning. It dries into a film of microscopic bubbles, which release their scent when walked on....
Perfumed "air enhancer" was released into three busy London subway stations yesterday, the start of a monthlong trial to see whether a swet smell can improve the jorneys of subway passengers.
London Underground describes the fragrance as a "rich, rosy, jasmine bouquet with a touch of herbs" -- though one passenger likened it to a cross between perfume and insect repellent.....
My favorite is PATH's distinctive yet indescribable smell .
The "air enhancer" malfunctioned at the St.James's Park station (District & Circle Lines) yesterday closing the station.
The machine was churning out too much "perfume", which caused the passengers on the platform to start choking and gagging. One was sent to the hospital.
The London Underground after airing out the station plan to re-introduce the musty air & detergent scent. BTW, the perfume plan is currently on hold.
This is sure to go down under the same heading as the chicken cannon story.
More news of the weird in today's Tribune
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bottle up and export the fresh aroma evident on either end of the Atlantic Ave (Brighton Line) platform :)
--Mark
When I come over to New York I always think the Redbirds smell of Stawberrys, plus sometimes one or two other things:)
Simon
Swindon UK
The two other things are heating oil and urine.
Dan
I like the idea of releasing perfume into the subway tunnels. I think thatit would be a great improvment over the usual odor that makes its presence known in the tunnels.
BMTJeff
Anyone know what the trouble was on the Brooklyn-to-Manhattan R this morning? I waited for one in Bay Ridge for nearly a half hour. No explanation was given. Anyone?
I heard on the news that there was a police investigation.
:-) Andrew
Isn't that the typical service pattern? They don't call it the Rarely for nothing!
Well.... I rather be rarely than never!
N Broadway Line
I was on the #4 this AM at about 7:45 AM at Fulton St. The train in front of us was stalled at Wall Street with a BIE. When we finally got to Atlantic Ave - I switched to the 'B'. Things were worse there. I asked the Platform Conductor what happened and he told me that there was a customer injury (possible 12-9) at Court Street on the R line. From what I understand - there was no fatality involved.
The Lex was also bad-- I was on a s/b 4 out of 161. The t/o seemd to be new- made several stops at each station and seemed to misjudge signals. At 125 I bailed out to a 6. That train was hot. At 28 we hit our first red--we caught our leader. at 23rd we sat again and for a while just north of 14 (between 14 and 18). The cab door was ajar(with the clip) and I heard the track circuit North of Astor. We were keyed into 14 where I saw maintainers walking towards Astor. We were keyed past the work site asnd finally got to Brooklyn Bridge
I understand that ERA will have their convention in Chicago 4th of July weekend. I would appreaciate it if someone can give details, such as the intinery and cost. Thanks
I might still have the flyer ... if I do, I'll mail it to you.
--Mark
Mark, make copies and mail one to me too! By the way, the May 6 PCC charter is on!
David Harrison
Are you going back for it after the EPTC show? (I think you said you were coming down to exhibit). I'll be going on the Media/Sharon Hill kawasaki fantrip on 5/6.
I'll send you a copy, too. I have to find it first :)
--Mark
In a way, it's a good thing those PCC L cars stayed in Chicago. at least they didn't get tagged at IRM. My aunt sent me a clipping from the Tribune about what happened. Looks as if they have in fact put up a fence around the museum's perimeter.
Thanks Mark. Looking forward to it,(provided I can time off work) and meeting you, if of course you do come.
An article in Wednesday's Times discusses the consternation in the Chinese community over the service disruption.
That was actually a fairly even-handed article. I might have also mentioned that on weekdays, there's also the Bowery station on the (M) to and from Brooklyn.
:-) Andrew
Grand St. isn't being closed. Some people continue to make that mistake. As for the people of Chinatown, I feel sorry for them, but they'll have to adjust, as the bridge closure is unavoidable.
I am going home for my grandmother's funeral and I will be taking Amtrak. On the way down I will be on the Vermonter from New Haven to PHL and on the way back tomorrow I'll catch Train 121 from Trenton to Meriden CT. Hopefully I'll get some sun on the way baque. I'll post a detailed report tomorrow evening.
It's funny how a sad moment can be turned into a railfan trip.
-Dan
Allow me to offer you best wishes and condolences for your grandmother's passing away. Have a safe trip.
> on the way baque.
The word is spelled back, not baque.
- Lyle Goldman
P.S.: Sorry about your grandmother.
"The word is spelled back, not baque."
Yes, but Jersey Mike has stated in the past that he uses unique spelling of his own design to make his posts even more colorful than they already are. (My personal favorite: "majour". One of the few "-or" words the Brits DON'T spell "-our" and he does!) In other words, he knows "baque" is misspelled but doesn't care.
I believe Python expressed it best, "in his own ... idiom, sir ... yes, idiom."
Does anyone know if I can get a volunteering position or job for the Transit Museum to restore subway cars at CI Complex. I've seen the work they do in the overhaul shop. I would like to do this in the summer, but I'm also 16. Can anyone help me?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Why not write a letter to Douglas Sussman, MTA Community Relations, 347 Madison Av NY NY 10017? Explain what you want to do and see if MTA is willing to approve an internship for you.
Good luck. It could be a lot of fun.
There was a person under the name of Mark W who has posted here in the past (but not recently) who is involved with this restoration work. I don't think it's through the transit museum, though ... in the past, this group has met on Tuesday nights to work on restoring the museum cars. You might want to search the archives for posts by Mark W and e-mail him (I think he included his e-mail address).
If he's posting under a different handle now, he may try to get back to you off-line afrer seeing this.
Good luck ... wish I knew about these efforts at your age when I lived close by and had the energy and the time to devote.
--Mark
Try Mark618@aol.com for that Mark W. There is also another Mark W. who works at the Transit Museum. Very nice & helpful fellow, but no relation.
The former and Mike Hannah can still be found on most Tuesday evenings working on cars at Coney Island, BUT you'll need to get in touch with one of them first so you can get past security. Mike also spends some weekends at Kingston, NY working on equipment up there.
Meanwhile check out the history section of this site to give you a better idea of what cars are in what condition.
P.S. Internship ... a friend who turns 18 this year ended up at 130 Livingston Plaza in the Simulator room ... just dumb luck.
Mr t__:^)
Daniel, the Transit Museum itself doesn't actively do any
restoration or maintenance. The volunteer positions there at
Court Street are, as I understand it, tour guides, exhibit
construction and cleaning. The work down in CI is under the
direction of Mike Hannah, whose name I have probably spelled
incorrectly, and he is a retired foreman of the shops. Several
of his gang read this board, but none seems to post here anymore.
Hopefully one of them will contact you.
What is the current status of the SBK yard? I haven't been there in about a year, but I heard reports that the Q cars are gone and the tracks have been ripped up. What's going on?
-Dan
After i finish working an Traffic Checker at Castleton Depot on Monday. I went by at 39th St SBK Yard to check out & the Q cars is still there & they putting new tracks. The Q cars is standing near the 2nd Avenue.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
MaBSTOA/TA Traffic Checker
To add just a little to what David said ... they are adding track in the yard in anticipation of the Rust Bird fleet needing to stay over on their way out of town.
Mr t__:^)
I recently was at the Canal Street Nassau St. Line station (J/M/Z). The tracks and ties on the downtown dead-end local track have been completely removed, but I didn't see any other work having been completed on this project. What is going on?
I am wondering about that also. There seems to be plenty of tracks to nowhere on that stretch of Broadway for some reason. What gives?
Why were they built and never used?
Yes, these tracks were used regularly as terminals for the Broadway locals coming in from Canarsie, until that service was terminated in 1968. When Canal St. was used as a weekend terminal in the early 1990's, all southbound trains operated through the Bowery on the express track, terminating on the northbound tail track at Canal. I've never seen a train parked on the southbound terminal track at Canal, and the condition of the track before it's removal leads me to believe that it wasn't used for decades prior.
I was surprised to see evidence of an upcoming rehab (namely, plywood boards with writing on the wall) at the northbound platform at the Bowery. If the northbound half of Canal is abandoned, wouldn't that also spell the abandonment of the northbound half of the Bowery?
Plans call for the closure of the Jamaica Bound Platforms at Canal( never renovated) and Bowery. At Essex Street, trains to Jamaica will use the middle track as the through track. The current Jamaica bound track will be left in place at Canal and Essex for non-revenue service.
At canal, service to Jamica will use the To Broad Street Platform's center track that currently ends at the wall.(Yes, it will require the rooms be moved and the track cut through). On the other platform, the center track will be removed and a room built on that right of way.
[On the other platform, the center track will be removed and a room built on that right of way. ]
How stupid is that, considering that MTA is studying to use Nassau Street line as the lower rportion od 2nd Ave subway. Do they ever think of more than 1 day ahead?
Arti
They're not. Any Second Avenue connection would only be done at Chambers, especially since the Chrystie Street line has room for two more tracks and those walls behind the platforms were designed to be removed for platform widening and installation of new wall tracks.
Actually, it's a good idea, which will vastly speed up northbound service. Let's not whine about any potential 2nd. Ave. connections. It's never being built.
That's what I thought. So why the (apparent) initial stages of rehab work on the Jamaica-bound Bowery platform?
With service at Essex shifted to the inner track, will the entrance on the south side of the street be reopened? (I'm still trying to figure out how it was ever used for subway -- as opposed to trolley -- service. Until 1999, the staircases at street level were boarded over but featured modern signage, including the Z.) Access should be via a removable bridge, as is in place at the Times Square shuttle platform and was in place at Essex when the bridge was closed in 1999, or else the currently unused KK connection will be permanently blocked.
As far as the entrance, I believe there is a stairwell from the Jamaica platform that goes under the Jamaica bound track to that abandoned mezzanine. There is a turnoff for the Essex St. tower. That is how personnel enters and exits safely without crossing the tracks. I have a question. Does anybody know the reason why they are doing this project? Thanks.
We just used this stairway to visit the Essex St tower today. It is tiled, so at one point was used for the public, but I don't know how long ago. They also have plywood walls up in the old fare control area, as well as the trolley terminal, which we got to walk through to take a look at the signals outside the portal.
Earlier we did J/Z relays at Broad, and rode an M layup from the south into Chambers J1 track. I always wanted to see this stretch of track which used to connect to the Manhattan Bridge. You can fit a whole train on both tracks around the curve, and get this; beyond the bumping block on J1, J3 swiings over and continues around abother bend, but I don't know how far. I always though both tracks ended near the portal (you could see the RR layup from a bridge train passing the old cut.) None of the track maps show one track swinging over to the bed of the other, so this seems to be something new. I wonder if they are going to re-connect it to the Bridge track (H1--just that one track merging into the southbound track). Perhaps for deadheads back to Brooklyn.
After leaving the train, we crossed over to the Canal St. station. All you have to do is walk through the opening in the wall, and you are just beyond the south end of the station. There are signs on the wall covere with dirt that point "North" and "south", but in the REVERSE of the actual directions. I had to explain to one person how the line actually is considered to be going south towards Queens. As I mentioned to Peter Dougherty recently, I believe this has more to do with the fact that the line originally went from Broadway Ferry to City Line (Crescent) than it does with Chambers being designated the northernmost point in the BMT, as he explains. From Bway Ferry or Marcy to Crescent or Jamaica is obviously closer to south, but the line was extended over the Williamsgurg bridge and Delancey St, and then happened to turn compass south on Centre St. to reach Chambers, and this happened to render Chambers the north point of that part of the BMT. (Still, all the trains operating towards Queens are operationally regarded as northbound,)
As for why they are doing this, it is to simplify the line (e.g.), less of a curve coming Queens bound into Canal), and the biggest reason, to make Canal and especially Bowery not only safer by having only one platform each, but since they only have to rebuild and maintain one side each, it saves money. They also will have a bypass track Queens bound (current J1), so you could actually have a real "Nassau St. express" that would bypass the two stations without running past the passenger platforms. But of course, this will only be used in emergencies. What they should also do is connect J1 leading to the old bridge lead to J1 in Canal. (They pretty much line up, as I saw crossing over them in the tunnel.) The two layup tracks (current bridge leads J1&J3) would branch off of the through J1, and current J3 between Canal and Chambers would also remain a layup track.
It also would have been nice if they kept the two platforms and ran the passenger service over the joined J1 sections, giving a faster straight run between the stations. The Wheel detectors at Chambers could have been removed.
---------------->||||
(Track layout is 2431)
Eric,
Who ran the tour? Do you know if there will be another in the near future? This sounds like the kind of "behind-the-scenes" tour of operations that many subtalkers would be interested in.
Thanks,
subfan
Thanks Eric.
When I was in motorman training for the BMT [we did both BMT and IND as we road-trained just before the merger] our instructor told us that on the original BMT/BRT whatever that city-bound tracks were always north and outward bound were south, likewise operation; this goes back to the days that all trains ran into the city only, before any BMT trains ran through Manhattan, the earliest exception being Astoria/Flushing which at that time BMT subway trains only went to Queens Plaza as all station clearances beyond were for IRT trains.
The original Broadway-Brooklyn el went to Cypress Hills, not "City Line" before the extension to Jamaica; the terminal was on Crescent St at Jamaica Ave. perpendicular to Jamaica Ave. [they did run surface to Jamaica for a brief time but have no idea how they did it. ] The City Line terminal was the Fulton el, at Grant and Liberty previous to the Lefferts extension, which was Lefferts Ave. in earlier days hence the el's destination signs said so.
Back to line direction, the same instructor rold us that when the Nassau LOOP was in operation [south side Manny B] that you could have a southbound train on the northbound track, the first such example.
our instructor told us that on the original BMT/BRT whatever that city-bound tracks were always north and outward bound were south, likewise operation; this goes back to the days that all trains ran into the city only, before any BMT trains ran through Manhattan
Early on, this may have been accurate. In about 1908, the Jamaica line was extended over the bridge to Essex St, Manhattan, and this was still a logical "north" terminal, and before 1920, the Broadway line terminated in Manhattan, also still maintaining the "City is always north" rule. But things got more complicated when the lines were extended beyind their "north" terminals either into Queens, or southward into Chambers St. (The Nassau loop was also pretty much running compass north, but entered Chambers heading compass south.)
>The original Broadway-Brooklyn el went to Cypress Hills, not "City Line" before the extension to Jamaica; the terminal was on Crescent St at Jamaica Ave. perpendicular to Jamaica Ave. The City Line terminal was the Fulton el, at Grant and Liberty previous to the Lefferts extension
I thought they were both called "City Line". I knew Cypress Hills was the terminal, but this was also the "City Line" area (Bklyn-Queens boundary)
[they did run surface to Jamaica for a brief time but have no idea how they did it.]
There was a ramp to the street somewhere
The city line at Jamaica Ave. is/was Elderts Lane, still of course the borough and county line. Remains as such to Atlantic and moves east...Forbell St. I think??; I lived at 282 Elderts Lane for 5 years, Brooklyn side of the street but got mail via Woodhaven; also cheaper auto insurance thanx to Queens address but had city water instead of that TERRIBLE Jamaica water.
From Montana, wishing you the best.. and memoried of the days I ran R1-9 on the Jam. el.
Yo, Unca Ed ... we've been blaspheming ... http://www.zdeno.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages//71.html
Big Ed, A number of us were thinking of you this Sat. Jeff H. put togather a R-9/Hi-V train that made several trips down the line on this "Members Day". I had a high number so settled for another reverse trip in the PCC (you signed in, got you free lunch ticket & a numbered ticket for the car of you choice). Saw a lot of happy faces that day including Hat Bus Al in his engineer's cap.
Mr t__:^)
Finally found this response this morning, glad I did. I work this board about every 24-25 hours and sometimes my previous day's messages are gone. [and I forgot what I wrote about half the time..stay young you guys!]
Many thanks for thinking about me and hooking up that train of High-V and R9...of course the Low-V would be a more natural mate but that was cool. As I see it the air could be compatible [ but you'd need a hose between them and adapter(coupler)]but powerwise you could only use the High-V for a horse one way and the R9 the other way.
Sounds like a good time was had by all and if nothing else that I'm there in spirit.
I'm always at Shore Line in spirit. Luckily, I discovered it just before coming out to Colorado in 1980. 1689 is my personal favorite. Had I remained back east, I would be there just as often as I possibly could.
I went to Saturday school with someone who lived at 212 Elderts Lane.
LOL.....my wife's cousin lives there now.
Small world, indeed.
So why do they call this southeastern Brooklyn neighborhood "City Line"? Sure it's on the border of Queens, but Brooklyn and Queens joined New York City on the same day. The City of Brooklyn never reached this far (did it?) Was there another (smaller) city there?
:-) Andrew
It might have to do with the more underdeveloped-look of Queens at the time the phrase was created, because city planners back then more likely considered Queens an extension of Long Island (even today some consider Queens Long Island territory -- look at the coverage given to Queens in the LI paper Newsday). Hence, the neighborhood bordering between Brooklyn and Queens being referred to as 'Cityline'.
BMTman
Whether the good people of Nassau County want to admit it or not Brooklyn aka Kings County is also geographically "on the Island". When I lived in Cypress Hills just for fun I used to say for the fun of it that I lived on Long Island...well, it is, and I didn't say so to elevate my social status...more in fun.
Just for a little more precise info I lived between Fulton and Atlantic first on Elderts Lane then on Grant Ave. If I walked to the J train I was in Cypress Hills [of course if an enlightened Nassau-ite wanted to get evn with me he could say I really lived In East NY] and if I went to the A train I went to City Line. At Atlantic Ave. names changed .....on the Queens side you were in Ozone Park; north of Atlantic you were in Woodhaven. Those areas were towns or villages on their own before the merger into the city as I'm sure you all already know...it was and still is Queens County, no city of Queens.
Whether the good people of Nassau County want to admit it or not Brooklyn aka Kings County is also geographically "on the Island"
I've given up, I've created the name Royal Island.
Those areas were towns or villages on their own before the merger into the city as I'm sure you all already know...it was and still is Queens County, no city of Queens.
They were not towns. The only towns were Newtown, Jamaica, Flushing and Hempstead (the Rockaways) and the City of Long Island City. I don't know if there were any incorporated villages in Queens County at the time. Both Woodhaven and Ozone Park I believe were real estate developments and were not incorporated villages but I may be wrong.
What I'd like to know is what the towns on Staten Island were. I know Bronx had West Farms, Kingsbridge, Morrisania, Westchester and parts of Eastchester and Pelham. And Westchester was the namesake for the county. The county (like Bergen County, NJ) has the dubious distinction of having its namesake in another county.
Thanks for the info on Queens Co. I had assumed for all these years that each of those Queens names had once been incorporated into villages or towns or whatever. Each of those communities even going back to the city merger was probably then equal in size to most "cities" where I live now. [Two thousand, 6, 7 thousand pop. a city????] Guess its the way the charter is set up? New Salem ND pop 800-900 calls itself a city. Please.
So now I know what Royal Island meant in your old handle. Satisfies a long curiosity.... your name for Lawn Guyland?
Actually, I'm pretty sure Pigs' "Royal Island" refers only to the Brooklyn-Queens part of Long Island. Get it? Kings County. Queens County. Royal Island.
Part of the argument for the name is that Wards and Randalls islands are actually the same land mass.
(For that matter, so are Europe and Asia.)
:-) Andrew
Queens County also included the Towns of Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay (which once included Lloyds Neck, now a part of Huntington and Suffolk County.) Those three towns split off to become Nassau County in 1899. Later, the Villages of Glen Cove and Long Beach split off from their respective Towns and became Cities. (Suffolk, Westchester, Orange, Dutchess, New York, Kings, Queens, and Richmond, among others, were original counties of New York State.)
Kings County once had a lot of Towns in it, including Flatbush, Flatlands, Gravesend, and New Lots (those are the ones I know.) There were probably a good deal more than in Queens County.
Westchester isn't the only county in New York where its namesake village, city, hamlet or neighborhood is somewhere else. Nassau is in Rennsaleer County. Monroe is in Orange County. Rockland is in Ulster County.
:-) Andrew
...and Bronxville is in Westchester County (while Westchester is in Bronx County.) Maybe the two counties should swap names.
:-) Andrew
Explain how you figure City Line being "southEast"?
OK. Whatever! It's eastern Brooklyn, southwestern Queens. My point is, this is no "city line", so why the name.
:-) Andrew
....but you're right. It's northeastern Brooklyn.
:-) Andrew
ya mon
...and the italics should have been on the "north"
D'OH!!!
:-) Andrew
If you read the book " a brooklyn Perspective: the architectural history of Brooklyn" it says that this was the name of the neighborhood because it WAS the city line even before the unification of 1898.
The city line of the City of Brooklyn, which as MisterK originally said became part of NYC the same January 1, 1898 that western Queens joined.
No, you had it right the first time, that was the border of the
City of Brooklyn as it existed shortly before the 1898 unification.
For twelve years to be precise. The Town of New Lots became part of the City of Brooklyn in 1886, the same year the el was extended there.
Do the (J)(Z) trains skip anything else in Manhattan besides Bowery? Don't they follow the same tracks as the (M)? Well, I guess the trains are infrequent enough that it hardly matters.
:-) Andrew
The term "Nassau Street Express" comes from the early days of trying to use the IND lettering/naming system on BMT Lines. The J and the M were the "Nassau Street Expresses," which didn't mean that they were express on Nassau Street--in fact they both stopped at Bowery in those days. It just meant they were expresses (on Bway-Bklyn) and that their Manhattan main line was Nassau Street.
The M was designated as "Nassau St. Express" in the days when it referred to the Bankers Specials. The old "Know Trains at a Glance" placards which were prominently displayed on BMT Southern Division station platforms in the 60s before Chrystie St. carried an "M-Nassau St. Express" listing.
However, "M" was always intended for the Myrtle-Chambers. It was temporarily used on the Banker's Special because they didn't have any other letter. I saw Banker's Specials marked "S" which in those days meant "Special." Shuttle was "SS."
The J/Z trains now stop at the Bowery at all times. The "Nassau St Express" really signifies service in Brooklyn since express service never really existed along Nassau St per se.
To bring that naming standard to the BMT was stupid, and it wasn't even one of two routings like IND 6th Ave and 8th Ave. They never went so far as to call the Flushing line the 42nd Street Express/Local, but an Astoria or BMT-Forest Hills train was whatever Broadway Local.
I've wondered that too. All three of those trains are locals pretty much, provided they even arrive in the first place.
Same deal with West End Express. The B normally does not go express along West End.
I think that there is one person who would be able to find the source of the heating oil smell on the No. 7 line. It would be "Smelly Kelley" of course. If any of you have read either "Uptown, Downtown" or "The Subway" both written by Stanley Fischler he describes the person known as "Smelly Kelley" quite well. He used to ride around in the subway system trying to locate malevolent odors. In a good day he could find it least one malevolent odor.
He was made famous many years ago when people started to notice that the 42nd Street station on the IND 6th Avenue line started to smell like elephants. "Smelly Kelley" was sent to that station and sure enough it did smell like elephants down there. He walked the length of the station platform trying to find out where the odor was coming from. Then he went up to street level and walked between the same points above as he did below. Then he recalled when the "Hippodrome" was in existence they used to bury the elephant dung in sub-bsement garbage bins. This was fine until one day a water main broke and the water got into the where the elephant dung was stored and the odor permeated the 42nd Street station on the 6th Avenue IND.
Since "Smelly Kelley" was able to locate the source of the elephant smell at the 42nd Street station of the IND, I think that he could locate the source of the heating oil smell on the No. 7 line.
BMTJeff
Has there been any news recently on the heating oil leaking into the subway tunnels?
-Robert A. King
There have been posts about the heating oil smell on the No. 7 line earlier this year. When I rode on the No. 7 line on April 1st I noticed the heating oil smell on the train. I don't know whether they have found the source of the heating oil smell yet. I wouldn't be surprised that heating oil is oozing into the tunnel from a leaky storage tank somewhere.
BMTJeff
I can do that! The source of the heating oil smell is the leaking heating oil, from an unknown source, that occasionally oozes between the tracks! Smelly Kelly, eat your heart out :)
--Mark
Now can someone find the leaky storage tank where the heating oil is coming from?
BMTJeff
Normally, I don't post this stuff since someone beats me to it but since no one has posted, here I go!
Last night at at about 10:41, about 25 cars of a CSX freight train derailed near Point of Rocks, WV. Until CSX clears the cars and makes repairs, MARC service can not run. The cause of the derailment is still unkown.
MARC Brunswick Line service did not run today because of the derailment. Buses ran from the Germantown MARC station to Shady Grove WMATA Station. MARC passes and tickets were honored on MetroRail and MetroBus for today.
Tomorrow, WMATA will operate at the Maryland MTA's request from Martinsburg, Point of Rocks, and Brunswick to Shady Grove. Ride-On will operate buses from Germantown to Shady Grove. MARC passes will be accepted on MetroBus and MetroRail tomorrow. We will know about service for Friday at about 3 PM on Thursday.
Metro reports a 5% increase in the number of rush hour riders today and will run 6 car trains on all red line trains this evening.
Thanks. I'm going to the NARP Director's meeting tomorrow. This will affect everyone there.
Here's the story from the Washington Post.
Addendum. I do not know what buses are running on the shuttles. Sorry. Assume its a mix of buses from WMATA's Montgomery Division and whatever Ride-On can spare from Gaithersburg.
I heard on channel 4 tonight that 15 Ride On buses were being used as shuttles from the Shady Grove station to Germantown, but they didn't say what happens at that point. I believe tomorrow there are going to be shuttles at Point of Rocks.
Their reporting was very limited and not as in depth as WMATAGMOAGH provided. Very sketchy and unorganized is what I could tell. There didn't seem to be a lot of chaos at Shady Grove, just people complaining about how long it would take to get home, which is understandable.
I got that report of WTOP a few minutes before the 3:08 traffic report. WTOP often does a very good job of providing the news. A very good write up is on their website at wtopnews.com and also on washingtonpost.com.
People are going to be mad!
tsk, tsk, Oren. Point of Rocks is in MD
My bad. I was trying to memorize the schedule for the MARC which I don't really know too well. First instincts told me MD but I changed my mind. Oh well.
Every morning on my way to work, I see more and more R-142s piling up at Unionport Yard. When are they going into service? I get the impression the TA is just going to use them as multi million dollar placemats. ;)
That seems to be the plan, much to the delight of the Redbird fanatics. In all honesty, since the last Redbird retirement is about two years away, if not longer, I don't understand the problem so many people have with the R142. There are over 2x, TWO TIMES, the amount of Redbirds compared to R142s, yet people hate these things like they hit their mama or something.
Anyway, they'll be pressed into service by the summer I assume. Rumor has it August is D-Day for an unlucky set of the Rustbirds.
I like the 142s and the redbirds. The 142 is a HUGE improvement over the R110A piece of garbage that they tried to pimp on us. Also, THE ORANGE SEATS OF DEATH ARE GONE! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I HATE THOSE THINGS! DO YOU HEAR? I HATE THEM! MY GOD! As a large man, those seats are like the Devil. My friend weighs 145 pounds, and even he is uncomfortable. I have a recurring dream of blinding and torturing the person who thought up those things. I despise the R44s thru the R68s. Those 75 foot fat pigs on the BMT/IND stink. I'm glad the new stuff will be back to 60 feet, the way God intended! Gotta go. I'm ranting.
I saw the new #6 (car #7347) with scratchhi on it. Guess the TA doesnt have a handle on this as of yet. Its a shame though,becasue i love riding on these trains on the 6 and cant wait to see when they go to the 5 or 7 lines.
The R142/R142A will only run on the 2, 5, and 6. The 7 will get R62s and/or R62As.
isn't it true that the R142/142A got those peeling plastic cover for the windows?
I don't know.
LONG LIVE THE REDBIRDS
Yes.
According to The New York Times Magazine several months ago, the R142/142A windows have a "sacrificial" layer of resin on them, just for that purpose.
I remember about 10-11 years ago, when I only saw scratchiti on Staten Island buses. I guess that borough is a leader in something. ; )
I think I know why, There are a lot of school kids there, and most like to use the bus, and while on the bus they have nothing better to do then scratch on the windows, personally I hate scratchiti, well, thats what I think
I won't mention his name but I have to tell you that the tour guide on the April 21st Subtalk fieldtrip to Washington D.C. did an outstanding job. He had the arrival and departure times of the Metro trains down to the minute. He was informative, knowledgeable, and an absolute joy to be around. He had a presence of one twice his age and he was (to my astonishment), only fourteen! Folks, when I was that age I was in mourning over the death of Yankee Captain Thurman Munson and even though I was already quite familiar with New York City Transit (the easternmost section of the Jamaica Avenue El had been torn down a year earlier) I STILL have nothing on this fellow. Subtalkers beware. In a few years this young man is going to be regarded as THE EXPERT on all matters related to mass transit. Needless to say, I was impressed.
Eric D. Smith
THank you very much! Glad you enjoyed yourself!
i also had a great time. now i am just waiting for the next trip. keep up the good work. hope you enjoyed the pic.
I think once the CAF cars come out, we can think about another trip.
When you pass the WD end sign is your train clear or just the front of the train?
The hole train is clear of it. But you can't take the train to full speed if there is a speed sign saying a lower speed.
(Exp. Wheel Detector is set for 10mph, you switch into a 20mph zone. When you hit the WD End sign all you can bring the train up to is 20mph. You can't bring it to full speed untill you get a Green "R" sign ether it will be with a Number like "R8" for an 8 car train or just an "R" for all trains.)
Robert
I've seen a solid WD light and heard of a flashing one. What's the difference ?
Bill "Newkirk"
"Solid" means you're OK, "flashing means, "She's gonna BLOW, cap'n" ... sorry I don't know the answer on the bluebirds, but I thought they were a THREE car lashup and therefore the same size as the triplexes in length though don't quote me on that since I'm not certain.
A Triplex unit was 137 feet long.
The flashing WD is letting you know that you are still going too fast for the detector associated with it and you have until that point to conform with the posted speed (which means about 5mph less in most places just to make sure). The solid WD lets you know you have conformed with the speed limit and should not be triped. However, some WD installations (Parkchester springs to mind) do not use the flashing aspect -- if the WD system is in force, ALL WD lights are solid, whatever your speed.
When the #1 line had the first new series of R62A in the Summer of 1986,with the 1600,1700,1800,1900 & 2000 series, in the Spring of 1987 when the 2100,2200,2300 & 2400 series arrived to the property the #1 line transfered all the first 5 series to the #3 & #6 lines while the #1 line had the last 4 new series for them to keep. My question is why did the #1 line transfered the 5 new first series to the #3 & #6 lines? It would have been a better idea that the #3 & #6 lines kept the last 4 new series?
The 3 line was short cars so 40 cars were sent to Livonia. Now with the 6 getting the 142's their 62's are being sent to 240 yard to replace the trains given away years ago.
Well the NEC is still under MASSIVE construction. Up at New Haven the western interlocking for the middle four tracks has almost been completed, the southern most station track has been completely removed and almost ALL the trackage at the SLE/Amtrak diesel engine terminal has been removed. The trackbeds are being re-balasted and the tracks should be replaced, but right now it's a mess. Also, Amtrak has added three tracks to the new* engine holding area.
Moving to New Jersey, track #1 between HUNTER and ELMORA has beentaken out of service for general maintainence. They have installed track bridges at N. Elizabeth and Elizabeth stations. At Elizabeth the bridges are built on flatcars that have been rolled onto the #1 track. Pretty smart.
Finally the BAD NEWS. On Metro-North between Stamford and New Rochelle the #1 track has been taken out of service. Concrete ties are being installed, bridges are being rehabbed and the worst part is that the beautiful diamond catenary over track 1 has been removed and that Europian shitte is being installed in it's place. Appearently it's part of a new 200 million $ programme to replace the 1907 origional wires, but to all us fans of classic cat it's a disaster. This is the oldest streth of overhead wire probably in the WORLD and it's being torn down one track at a time. Hopefully a stretch will be preserved in a museum somewhere. To all those who thinks that the new stuff will bring in higher speeds (Phill) you will be sorely disapointed as the real rub lies in all the curves, the wooden ties and the horde of Metro-North trains that run on both the local and express tracks.
I'll write a more complete trip report tomorrow and trust me it's JUICY. So read it.
/*To all those who thinks that the new stuff will bring in higher speeds (Phill) you will be sorely disapointed as the real rub lies in all the curves, the wooden ties and the horde of Metro-North trains that run on both the local and express tracks. */
Rule 1777Q will be revised to apply only above stamford once the current work is done, and from what I've read, the MAS *will* go up in a few places too.
Even if it doesn't bring higher speeds, the reduction in delays via dewirements, and the costs associated with that will be worth it.
Even if it doesn't bring higher speeds, the reduction in delays via dewirements, and the costs associated with that will be worth it.
I have never experianced a down'd wire delay or even heard of one.
I have never experianced a down'd wire delay or even heard of one.
Consider yourself fortunate. They're all too common in that area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ok here's the lo-down.
-I arrived at 3:15 at NHV but i forgot that the Vermonter was running 50 min late due to the landside in Vermont. The worst part was that there was no other train that I could take instead of the Vermonter.
-The Amtrak ticket design has changed. It now matched the whole ACELA scheeme and almost looks black and white.
-I had ample time to sit on the platform and watch the going's on. The #3 platform still has no W/B access, but it is being used for SLE trains.
-SLE control cabs have SEPTA PL style cab signal displays.
-I did not see any trains traveling faster than slow speed.
-The track numbering system at NHV is REALLY wacky. It goes something like 3,1,?,?,8,10,12,?
-There was this Ass Hole on the train. He was obsessed with the fact that the Vermonter was so late and that there was an NE direct tain like 3 minutes behind us. For some reason he felt he NED would be better and kept bugging the C/R. After a well deserved "sheesh" the passenger got all P/O'd, demanded the C/R's ID and stormed off the train at Bridgeport to catch the following NED train. Please note that the NED train would have an extra stop and much less free seating.
-Between Bridgeport and Stamford we rong railed on the #2 track instead of the #3 or #4. We had E/B trains passing us on our RIGHT!
-The Stamford station complex is almost finished. the #1 track is almost completed and the #1 track bridge has been re-constructed. However the #1 and #2 tracks are still OoS.
-There are new hi-speed turnouts at the New Cannaan Jct.
-I spotted two new signal towers. One used to operate the Cos Cob DB and another used to control a now gone crossover near Green's Farm.
-I noticed that PATH is still using a lot of electro-penumatic switches.
-I saw a EWK Monorail sitting at the NEC-Monorail station.
-I stopped a N/B ACELA trainheading through HAROLD interlocking and onto the NYCRR.
-I saw two LIAR DE hauled trains woth bi-level coaches comming from the Hunter's Point station.
-The line-up at the exit to Sunnyside yard was not as big as usual.
-Finally I was amazed at how long the days have gotten. It was still light out when my train pulled into 30th St. at almost 8 o'clock!!!!!! The sus didn't set until somewhere around SHORE interlocking.
-Hope this helps.
Interesting post. I think I can clear up the confusion about the New Haven track numbering. The west bound (New York bound) tracks are odd numbered (1 is express, 3 is local); the east bound tracks are even numbered (2 is express, 4 is local). Any additional tracks outside these (such as at New Haven and Stamford) would be numbered 5,7... (westbound) and 6,8... (eastbound).
Plus they added tracks during this current rebuild so you have those high numbers.
AEM7 storage has been moved back to the orginal location, RR west of the station next to track 3 and no longer by the loop out RR southwest.
MNRR trains have been storing on the non-connected west bound tracks, backing up (operator on the west end) and then pulling into the station on 3 track. Many times the departure has been called and there was no MNRR train on the platform the last few times I traveld (last weekend). I'm taking the 7:10a eastbound tommorrow and will check the progess at Stamford (if not asleep) and NHV.
We passed today like two Amtrak trains in the twilight. I was on the 5:39 Metroliner from Baltimore to NYC. Passed a bunch of southbound Amtrak's, including one stopped in Trenton at about 7:15 -- perhaps the Vermonter, but I didn't notice any baggage cars and it was long. Probably a Clocker.
Some SEPTA questions.
Just north of North Philly at about 7:00, I saw a 7 car SEPTA train heading southbound. I'd never seen one longer than 4. Do they run 7 car sets during the rush, or was I just seeing some car movements.
About 2 or 3 stations further up the line there is a laquered wooden sign with gold lettering (like those signs that have been popping at the borders of some suburban towns) right next to the tracks, angled so that probably only an engineer could read it. What does it say?
Finally, when did the SEPTA trains get the new paint (sticker?) job. They look 110% better.
CG
About 2 or 3 stations further up the line there is a laquered wooden sign with gold lettering (like those signs that have been popping at the borders of some suburban towns) right next to the tracks, angled so that probably only an engineer could read it. What does it say?
"Thank you for Traveling on Amtrak's Metropolitan Division" or "Welcome to Amtrak's Metropolitan Division" depending on which way you're facing. There's another sign just like it at SHELL interlocking.
Finally, when did the SEPTA trains get the new paint (sticker?) job. They look 110% better.
They started getting them early in 2000.
Just north of North Philly at about 7:00, I saw a 7 car SEPTA train heading southbound. I'd never seen one longer than 4. Do they run 7 car sets during the rush, or was I just seeing some car movements.
Yes, on some routes you will see 7 car trains and even some push-pulls.
Yes, on some routes you will see 7 car trains and even some push-pulls.
A month ago I spent AM rush hour at Frankford Junction to video both Acelas. Every Trenton Local that went by was push-pull.
oi, where r u, why arent you online
>>Between Bridgeport and Stamford we rong railed on the #2 track >>instead of the #3 or #4. We had E/B trains passing us on our RIGHT!
Track work the past two weeks on 4 track and a lot of Amtrack have been westbound on 2 track.
This question involves the classic BMT "Bluebird".
What was the train lenght of this 5 car compartment train in comparison to:
1) 60ft "R" type subway cars
2) 67ft BMT Standards
3) BMT Triplex
(ex. a five car Bluebird train was equivalent to x 60ft cars)
Bill "Newkirk"
One three-compartment bluebird unit was 80 feet long, so you only need do the math.
To put it in elevated car terms (what the Bluebird was primarily designed to replace), a 3-unit Bluebird replaced the popular 5-car elevated train.
Ah, it occurs to me that maybe you meant "how long were all five production Bluebirds in a single train?"
Answer: 400 feet, or about equivalent to a six-car Standard or three-unit Triplex.
My confusion revolves around the meaning of the word "car." (Help me out, Bill Clinton).
I usually avoid the problem of "is a Triplex a three-car unit, or a three-section car" by saying that a Triplex is a three-section unit.
Clear? ;-)
The Triplex is a 3- section CAR. Some railfan brought me to task on my description of the D type...3 cars to a unit..in my book, and he was right. Gruffly explained to me that the 3-sections constituted one car and that has been confirmed by my experience with articulated piggyback cars in freight service..let's say 15 cars of five packs comprise 75 platforms for vans or containers. So for any articulated CARS they would comprise however many sections were in the unit, so a 12 section D type train would be four cars. Other than shop disconnections they are "permanently'assembled, so a car for 3,5, sections.
BTW a conductor rold me back in the 50's [after the Bluebirds were put OOS that every time it rained they'd break down!
"Gruffly explained to me that the 3-sections constituted one car"
This would be confirmed by the number sequence. Units were numbered with one number followed by A, B or C.
[for example: 6119A, 6119B, 6119C]
"Gruffly explained to me that the 3-sections constituted one car"
This would be confirmed by the number sequence. Units were numbered with one number followed by A, B or C.
[for example: 6119A, 6119B, 6119C]
I see your and Ed's point, but the definition requires too much finessing for my taste, as we're still playing with the meaning of "car."
The sections of a Triplex unit were interchangeable, but this was rarely done. Still it could be done in the shop with the employment of cutting tools, welding or lots of strapping tape.
The difficulty is illustrated by a few examples.
Q-types were (e.g.) 1600 A-B-C, but were the not very permanent mating of individual cars with individual numbers.
C-types had a stronger bonding and A-B-C lettering, were also made from what were originally separate cars. The first C-type retained the original numbers of the constituent cars, so was this 3-section unit really one car, with three discrete numbers? Later it was made A-B-C.
The Q's were not articulated at all and the C's were not in the true sense.
The Green Hornet and Zephyr as originally numbered had both discrete numbers AND A-B-C-B1-A1. IIRC, the A sections were 7000 series, the B 8000 series, the C 9000 series (subject to correction by someone not too lazy to look it up).
And what about B-units? All discrete numbers, semi-permanently coupled. If the BMT had numbered a B-unit 2000 A-B-C, would you describe an 8-section train made up of 1 B-unit, 1 BX and 2 A units as a four-car train?
What about R27's (and other semi-permanently coupled R-types). One car, say 8020 or 8021, coulkd not run without the other, since neither carried full underbody equipment. If these were 8020 A-B, would you say they were one car?
I hope we don't need to get into arguments about drawbars and trainline connections.
My point is that it is such a hard line to draw that I just avoid the aggravation and say (at least in writing) "a 3-section Triplex unit."
The standard railway definition of a "car" is a unit of rolling
stock which is either self-propelled or capable of being pulled
in a train. By that reasoning, any truly articulated vehicles
in which the individual units share a truck can not be subdivided
into cars. Your specific examples: Q types: definitely 3 cars.
Modern NYCT married pairs, 4-car or 5-car link barred trainsets,
these are also individual cars. Even though they can't propel
themselves as single cars, they can exist in a train. D types,
Multis and Bluebirds are not thus separable. The articulation
units can be split up, but the result is not something that can
roll along in a train. C types were a grey area, but since each
unit rode on an independent pair of trucks, it was possible to
remove the inter-unit drum and move the cars around individually.
As Paul said, each 3-section bluebird unit (there were 6,
the prototype #8000, and 8001-8005 which came in 1940) was
80'4" over coupler faces. Three of these units coupled together
was 241' long. I have never seen pictures of anything but this
3-unit train. Reportedly they were very unreliable and so 3 out
of 5 was the best you were likely to see.
The BU car was 49' long so at 245' for a 5-car train, it was close
to the 3-unit Bluebird.
The bluebird was essentially two Brooklyn PCC cars made into
an articulated. It had four of the Brooklyn-style Clark B-2
trucks and each had a pair of GE1198 40 hp PCC motors. At 77,000
pounds, give or take, it was a little heavier than a pair of
PCCs. The bluebirds had the same performance numbers as the PCC:
4.0mphps acceleration rate, 4.75 service brake, 8-9 emergency,
top end of 40 MPH. Compared to today's castrated equipment, they
hauled ass, although they were not the speed champs. That title
belonged to the Multis.
Don Harold once expressed regret that they weren't able to save
any of these BMT streamliners, and I agree wholeheartedly.
In James Clifford Greller's book "Subway Cars Of The BMT" there is a picture of five "Bluebird" compartment cars in the consist of a train.
BMTJeff
Do any artifacts at all remain from the Bluebird cars? At TMNY, we have some unused PCC wheels that supposedly were spares for the Bluebirds.
The only items that I know of are photographs. It is possible that someone squirreled away the plans for the BMT "Bluebird" cars somewhere.
BMTJeff
Have been wondering why Transit Transit wasn't on Cablevision on Wednesday's at 8 PM as advertized. Now I see that the "Train Show", a.k.a. MRLI (Model Railroading Long Island/Trainland) also won't be on Fridays at 8 PM.
The message on MRLI site as of 4/20 states that Cablevision is being a real stinker about carring these shows. Seems they would prefer to carry only home video yada yada type clips on channel 71.
Mr t__:^)
I will check tonight (6pm BCAT on Cablevison) but the last couple of Transit Transit here have been last months show.
You can watch Transit Transit on Channel 25, and not deal with Cablevision the essence of Evil.
You can also set your VCR to it, instead of paying for Time Controlled Programming on the converter they force you to lease.
If you think "ChuckieVision" (Chuck Dolan/Cablevision) chews the biscuit, you ain't seen high vacuum suckage until you are living in "AOL/TimeWeenie" territory where if it doesn't appeal to the trailer park, it ain't on at all.
Up where I live, we used to be serviced by Cablevision (which had neat stuff like Encore, IFC, Sundance, Flix, Starz and a raft of pretty decent channels) ... the minute AOL came in ("what are you wearing? A black teddy of course") all those channels got ditched for more Turner Trailer Twaddle ... needless to say, we've got DirecTV now which has all the stuff we USED to get on Chuckievision and a whole lot more.
It's CABLE that blows ... ChuckieVision isn't anywhere near as bad as the crap they peddle in the City ... Chuckie at least had a FEW channels that were bereft of "Sister Cleo" ...
Yes, thank goodness for direct to home satellite service.
Rogers... Ted Rogers... Not to be confuesd by the guy on Mr. Roger's Neighbourhood... Rogers Cablesystems... Living in a house on a corner... Two different cable TV cables run by on different sides of the house... They connected us to the cable in the front yard... Our house was the last connection on it, at the end of the cable... Screwing a bent coathanger into the back of the TV would have worked better... Rogers refused to connect us to the other cable by the side that had better signal strength... Rogers subsequently replaced with Bell DTH dish... High speed DSL internet access provided by Bell, not Rogers...
About a month ago Rogers actually send a marketing troupe through the neighbourhood, trying to get back customers they lost to competing companies like Bell who provide good service, and the sales pitch as to why we should get our cable TV service reinstated, and get cable internet access in addition to that, was to have it as a back up in case the satellite dish failed or something goes wrong with the DSL internet service! I laughed them off the front porch... Buy cable TV service to have it as a backup in case the sattelite dish stops working? Come on...
-Robert King
Heh. TimeWeenie's been doing the same thing around here after having to turn off a whole section of the system because no one's on it. They still have to pay their "pole tax" though since they've still got wire up there.
Get this - they came out trying to sell us "digital cable" and "dirty bird" (RutRudder) but there was one problem. They SAY (extra points here for "they say") that Road Runner will be available in 2004 in "our area" and yet they're trying to make us buy it now. Uh-huh.
AOL and Time Warner - PERFECT together. :)
(and I used to work for the NYC Cable TV Commission before TW killed it)
Oh blessed Pizza pan - what's on tonight? Oooo! I have to choose between Chicken Run again or Nutty Prof II or Virgins of Sherwood Forest or Scary Movie or "Whipped" or Bedazzled or Me, Myself and Irene or What Lies Beneath or The Watcher or Bring it on or Lost Souls or Nurse Betty or The Contender or Meet the Parents (all running right now) ... or if I had TW cable it'd be a choice of Omen IV The Awakening or Around the World in 80 days. Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.
Oops ... meant to say I worked for the NY STATE Cable Commission, the one belonging to the city is still in operation although just as effective. But I sure don't miss "cable" nor does anyone else around here. 237 channels on the pizza pan or 45 channels on the wire. Hmmm.
So now you have 237 varieties of nothing rather than just 45 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pretty much, but No "Sister Cleo" ads and none of those miserable CDs from "TimeLife Music" ... some things are worth paying for. :)
(wouldn't have even known about that stupid talking fish if it weren't for a buddy of mine that got one as a Christmas gift)
Seriously though, there's always something on and if I miss a show I can always see it again in three hours from the west coast feed. Ya just don't get that from cable. And if there's an "outage" then I just have to mosey on outside and take a broom to the pizza pan and service is restored. No rotting on hold, no waiting for the cable guy and outages at worst last no longer than it takes to go out and brush wet snow off the puppy. Can't miss my "Trains Unlimited" on Monday morning at 5am. :)
I'm not against the channel lineup (what can you do with 125 channels, many of which cannot be used for actual channels). But the local Cablevision division FORCES you to use their converter, even if one has a cable ready TV. You can't even get a descrambler alone so one can use the TV to tune. Not only do they force you to use their converter, but they force you to LEASE it, and you have to pay a remote control fee (or at least had to)
Meanwhile, in order to use the time controlled programming feature of the converter, you have to pay a fee, otherwise its disabled. So one has to manually change the channel to record something. And you can't watch one thing and record another like you can with a regular VCR without leasing extra equipment.
I don't know about Time Warner's channel lineup in New York City, but I know they're rolling out Digital TV which expands the available channels to as many as a dish has.
Cablevision is committed to rolling out digital cable systems, but only digital descrambling systems, not MPEG compression of channels.
I have to say one good thing about the addressible converters: The ability to buy pay-per-view by pressing two buttons on the remote or box. I don't know what they do on older systems with descrambling equipment that has to be modified onsite to change the available channels, or by newer systems with a descrambler outside of the house that's addressible.
DirecTV lets you get UltimateTV and Tivo (and in the case of the first, is the only way). Forced converter cable would not. However I don't know of any sattellite(sp?) services that offer internet access with the same dish.
Can You get Transit Transit in ayer & Shirley Massachusetts?
I would doubt it... it's a NYC transit show sponsored by the MTA. We don't get it in Jersey either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go to the MTA web site for a list of stations & times where the show appears (Cablevision Westbury is incorrect, because it's not on).
Mr t__:^)
DAMN I Would Like To Live In NYC.
Thurston,
In case if you don't know, Transit Transit moved to Monday afternoon at 3 PM (Nassau County). Yes I know, program the VCR time !
Bill "Newkirk"
Channel 25 has it on Saturday, meaning one can watch it live.
Thurston,
In case if you don't know, Transit Transit moved to Monday afternoon at 3 PM Channel 71 (Nassau County). Yes I know, program the VCR time !
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks Bill. The MTA web site still has the old time, and a mutual friend couldn't find out what the problem was when he called the TT team in Brooklyn. That's why I assumed TT got the same treatment as MRLI/Trainland when I read the item on their site.
Mr t__:^)
If not for the fact that this took place on the 'B' train south of 9th Ave., this would be totally off-topic. Yet there I was, on a southbound B heading for The Transit 'Learning Center' on 86th St. My fellow travelers were many younger high school students. 4 young ladies who were sitting next to me and across the car were engaged in the usual conversations that 15 and 16 year old girls have - about boys. The conversation was primarily one girl relating a conversation she had with a young man (about one of the other girls). The truly amazing thing was that throughout the entire 20 minute retelling of the conversation, the word "SAID" was never used - nor was the word ""SAY" or any other form of the word. Instead she would use phrases like "He was like .........", "He went ....." or "Then he goes .....". When was my language changed? Is this a universal change in teen language or is it a Brooklyn lialect?"
If not for the fact that this took place on the 'B' train south of 9th Ave., this would be totally off-topic. Yet there I was, on a
southbound B heading for The Transit 'Learning Center' on 86th St. My fellow travelers were many younger high school students. 4 young ladies who were sitting next to me and across the car were engaged in the usual conversations that 15 and 16 year old girls have - about boys. The conversation was primarily one girl relating a conversation she had with a young man (about one of the other girls). The truly amazing thing was that throughout the entire 20 minute retelling of the conversation, the word "SAID" was never used - nor was the word ""SAY" or any other form of the word. Instead she would use phrases like "He was like .........", "He went ....." or "Then he goes .....". When was my language changed? Is this a universal change in teen language or is it a Brooklyn lialect?"
I've heard young people talk like that elsewhere, so it's probably nothing specific to Brooklyn.
Not limited to Brooklyn, and not particularly new. I remember the usage from Chicago in the 1970's; and somewhere in that era there was a Peanuts strip that took note of it.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That Peanuts strip is from the 1950's, BTW!
:) Andrew
"Like," "you know," "stuff" - aren't these words which, when mixed with the appropriate four letter curse words, substitute for the rest of the English language?
I heard the same conversation on the Market Street subway 25 years ago among girls going to Hallahan High from Northeast Philly.
WHat they need is a good Humphrey Bogart Movie, Preferably "the Big Sleep" or "Maltese Falcon"
The future is scary when I look at my fellow peers, I try not to think about it too much, When I get Older im moving to an unstable african country where I am siding with a rebel group, at least I have my fellow "soldiers for freedom" to count on, boy dont't get me started about todays youth.
Don't get American Pig started about your opinion of today's youth.
Well, here's hoping he's got a sense of humor. Some of us fossils get a bit twitchy about "ageism" too ... and I sure do understand where he's coming from at his own age since I took a lot of guff at the time myself. And at age 19, coming to work on the railroad, I *really* got a stuffing of it since my "Edwardian" look was dismissed by the oldtimers as "hippie" ... hell ... never even saw my first "joint" until I was out of the city ... damn! I lived a boring life. NOT. :)
Me and my friend discuss this a lot, and we have come to a conclusion, We are soo old we should be dead, the first sign is we catch ourselves using slang from the 30s, secnondly we enjoy Film Noirs, Thirdly I tried to get off at the city Hall Station on the 6 today, me and my friend actually rode it for the first time, IT WAS GREAT, IN AN R-142, HAHA twice!! but third time we got caught, the first time we asked a C/R if we could ride it, he said no, but he told us what to do, "go to the back of the train and act "stupid" and we did, I'll post further info later, oh yea and we also tried toget into the Knickerboker Hotel at GCT Shuttle to reserve rooms but found we were too late, boy im getting olde
It is definitely not a speech pattern specific to one region. What really gets my goat is that I sometimes find myself talking that way, since I work in an office where I'm one of "the geezers". I take pride in the fact that I learned to read and write English correctly, only to have everything undone through osmosis.
What I find even more apalling is the general disdain many have for knowledge beyond pop culture. History, politics, current events, the arts (aside from what is trendy), and literature are viewed as "boring" "irrelevant" or "elitist" by many people in this millenium.
Want to see something really scary? Every so often Jay Leno takes his video crew down to the streets of Los Angeles and asks them a really simple question related to one of these subjects. It is simply amazing how many people are clueless. Moreover, it's not just the younger generation that lives in a vacuum. Nor is this type of ignorance associated with any ethnic or racial group.
My generation's lack of interests towards hisotry, politics, current events, and the like are only their loss, frees up high paying positions for ME!!!
Heh. Said like a true supply-side economist. Us upstate repubs are PROUD of ya, boy. ("boy" said firmly tongue in cheek) ... some folks work for da man, others ARE da man ... 'nuff said. :)
damn straight!! Although sometimes (all the time) I notice that the youngin from out side new york is even "simpler" then within, I love America. God Bless this Country
SeveN. a pragmatist? Who'd a thunk it?
Sheet happens ... by the way, nice "dish" on the coupler switch problem back there ... I remember a day when dead motors, no lights, no fans in summer and only one door leaf working wasn't reason enough to pull a car. :)
Ahh my man there are many a thing ye dont know
Cluelessness is a way of life ... it's what gets us "Shrubbery" ... but I won't talk about politics here. Whoop.
LOL!
Ignorance is everywhere, in all classes. There are different types of ignorance too.
I remember Michael Moore (the TV Nation guy) wondering "are the rich really smarter", and going out with a camera and asking folks on the street from different walks of life a variety of questions. My favorite came when he took out a box of Kraft Macoroni and Cheese and asked "besides this box, what else do you need to make this meal." The working class folks all knew. The rich folks--no idea!
:) Andrew
And let's not forget Shrub's dad when confronted with one of those star-wars thingies at the checkout counter and not knowing what the price of a quart of milk was ... AT ALL ...
And let's not forget Shrub's dad when confronted with one of those star-wars thingies at the checkout counter and not knowing what the price of a quart of milk was ... AT ALL ...
That's not quite how it happened. Bush pere was shown a checkout scanner while touring a supermarket during his presidency. He knew full well what it was, but expressed some interest as he'd never before seen one in action. This seemingly trivial expression of interest became transformed into a urban legend involving his total cluelessness, a legend that was revived when W. became president (with the obvious implication that the father's ignorance had been passed on to the son).
Let's examine the situation in more detail. Checkout scanners were still relatively new on the market at the time of Bush Sr.'s tour. He had been Vice-President or President since January 1981, well before scanners were in use. And it's hardly surprising that he hadn't been in a supermarket since then, what with security issues and a staff to handle food-service matters. As noted, Bush Sr. was not bewildered by the sight of the scanner, as the urban legend often said, he was just interested to see how it worked in real life.
Believe what ya wanna ... but the issue of Shrub the root not knowing the price of milk *was* amply demonstrated at the time. Like father like son, a one-termer ... hell, even Shrub's OWN PARTY has already announced agin' him for 2004 ... if that don't say it all.
Been 100 days, where's the results? EVERY other "prezzydent" has stood the test of "OK, Mr. Prez, been 100 days, what have you done?" Qual es el dinero? OK, all I've seen is the price of a fillup. Anything else we should be noticing?
He had been Vice-President or President since January 1981, well before scanners were in use.
Checkout scanners were introduced in the early '70s. By 1980 they were in over half the stores of the major supermarket chains; by 1984 market penetration was in excess of 99%. Kmart and other major discounters were fully equipped by 1982. They became affordable for the smaller stores after IBM introduced PC-architecture versions in January 1986. (I worked for Big Blue from 1978 to 1994, most of that time in the cash register organization.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was interesting to note that three months ago, after President Clinton left office, one story about his arrival in Chappaqua noted the president was not used to being a private citizen and had to learn to do things for himself, including "learing how to operate an ATM machine." ATMs, of course, were invented in the 1960s and were in general use around the country by the mid-1970s, even in the backwaters of Little Rock, Ark.
Slightly embarrasing intellectually for a man one White House aide called "The smartest president since Thomas Jefferson," but sause for the goose. Hope he can figure out them there new fangled Metrocards on the subway ride up to 125th Street.
It was interesting to note that three months ago, after President Clinton left office, one story about his arrival in Chappaqua noted the president was not used to being a private citizen and had to learn to do things for himself, including "learing how to operate an ATM machine." ATMs, of course, were invented in the 1960s and were in general use around the country by the mid-1970s, even in the backwaters of Little Rock, Ark.
Not by the mid-1970s. I don't recall seeing them much before the mid-1980s.
I remember one in the early 1980's. It was scary. The entire machine was covered with a rigid plastic (glass?) cover that rose when a card was inserted -- except when it didn't bother to rise.
When I was going to college up in Syracuse in 1975, Marine Midland (now HSBC) installed their MoneyMatic tellers up there, which allowed me to stick money in to an ATM down in New York during breaks and take it out up there.
Marine only had two ATMs in Manhattan, at 46th and Park and downtown at Liberty and Nassau, but they also didn't have that many branches in the city back then either. Chemical Bank was the first big local bank to get into putting ATMs at all their branches, starting about 1974, while Citibank introduced their own propriatary ATM system about 1977, and others were getting into the game in and around those times.
Back in the 1970s, a bank having an ATM was still a prestige thing, and while they were limited pretty much back then to the foyers and outside walls of the banks themselves -- as opposed to now when anyone can stick an ATM anywhere -- at least one or two banks in every major city had them by the end of the decade, since 24-hour banking back then was a way to attract new customers.
Every so often Jay Leno takes his video crew down to the streets of Los Angeles and asks them a really simple question related to one of these subjects. It is simply amazing how many people are clueless.
You don't have to even wait that long. Watch the show Street Smarts. Contestants decide which of three "randomly selectd people on the street" will get a simple question correctly.
--Mark
Heh. Even said UPSTATE! "As if ... What EVER ..." :)
From the viewpoint of a 50 year old here, I'm just OVER the hill, not under it. You've been in the car barn too long. At least they ain't saying "groovy, baby ..." :)
No, like, it's like everywhere!
-Robert King
Like its like not like, like everwhere, like. Like, what do you like, think like of like everyone like?
like avid like
I mean like you know?
Fer sher!
And if you eliminated the "you know"s and "umms", the story would have taken 2 minutes!
--Mark
It's a fact of life: language changes.
It's a fact of life: many resist such change.
It's a fact of life: they lose. (I don't see much of Shakespeare's English on this board, let alone earlier forms of the language.)
Agreed,
In a good number of old black & white movies from the '30s some of the dialogue started with ... Say, what are ya trying to do, Say, just a minute there... Say, I didn't have nuttin to do with that
The key word or phrase of the time being "Say"
Next time a golden oldie is on take a listen. W. C. Fields comes to mind.
avid
LOL, "say" is being all but replaced this generation, while in the past it was overused.
I always noted how other kids used "goes". I guess that "saying" or "speaking" is being treated as a type of "going" (and "go" can mean many things). Go means "proceed", and you can proceed to say something, so "go" can be substituted for "say". Also, sometimes both are used. ("Don't go saying that..."; "He went and said...")
"Like" seems to be a holdover from the hippies/beatniks (Think of Shaggy from Scooby Doo) that was picked up by the "valley" culture. It generally is used as short for "He said [the following]like this:..." or "He says something like...", where you're not necessarily claiming to have his words exact, or perhaps are even paraphrasing what you think his meaning is. This is what I gather from the usage of these phrases.
The disclaimer approach to being a witness.
("Like" seems to be a holdover from the hippies/beatniks (Think of Shaggy from Scooby Doo) that was picked up by the "valley" culture.)
It's naseating to hear the same stupid jokes and songs I heard as a kid from my 7 and 9 year olds. To think, I thought they were orignial 30 years ago. There is one song that begins "All the girls and friends do a hula hula dance and the dance they do is enough to kill a snake." Same song more than 30 years later, but back then it ended with "It's the year 1968," which rhymed. Now they use the same song with the current year, which DOESN'T rhyme too.
Someone should tell the kids grafitti's been done too. Maybe they'll come up with something new.
Now they use the same song with the current year, which DOESN'T rhyme too.
Plus, two thousand and one is a mouthful because of the thousand.
I haven't heard anybody ever say twenty-oh-one.
"Two thousand one" is fewer syllables than "nineteen sixty-eight."
Twenty-yo-won.
Howwar you dowin? {Sappranoese}
avid
The way I had heard it, it was "all the girls in France (which rhymes better with "dance"). I never knew about the rest of the words. I just know that the tune is associated with ancient Egypt
Those were my mother's feathers!
It's a fact of life: language changes.
It's a fact of life: many resist such change.
It's a fact of life: they lose. (I don't see much of Shakespeare's English on this board, let alone earlier forms of the language.)
I would use Shakespearean English in my Subtalk postings, but I can't figure out the proper phrasing for "Upper West Side limousine liberals" and "suit-covered anuses."
Sorry.
Upper Westshire Sedan bourne pro-proletarian nobels.
Is that close enough?
avid
I don't think anybody used the word proletarian in English back then.
My error , it should hve been pedestrian.
avid
Upper Westshire Sedan bourne pro-proletarian nobels.
Is that close enough?
Perfect!
The sad thing is that such language is universal among teenagers today. To me, it isn't so much for the poor grammar -- teenagers have always had they're own slang. The sad thing is that it is universal. Once upon a time, Brooklyn had a language and an accent all its own. The Bronx had their own. Long Island had theirs. Jersey had theirs. Over time, the regional dialects and slang have all pretty much blended together.
It's not just New York, though. The world of Cable TV (MTV in particular) has helped create a national teen language where there used to be multiple regional differences.
CG
New World "Teen" Order.
MTV speak.
Good , cool, bad, boss, neat, sweet, sick, DUDE.
Money, dough, bread, cheese, swiss, gold , geld,
Must be heard in context to understand the meaning.
avid
Yo! I dig what you be sayin' m' man!
I can gingle da lingo with da best of 'em!
BMTman
LOL I think I just spotted my Haines.
avid
You think that's true? It may be.
At least in my generation, there are even differences between different parts of Long Island. My wife's best friend is from Hollbrook, and her accent is sawta kinda like the "whiny" Lawng Ayeland accent we normally associate with the region. My wife and I are from Levittown. Our accent is a lot less whny, maybe "tougher", a bit more like Queens or Brooklyn. Actually Biily Joel kind of talks like me, not surprising since he grew up only ten blocks from where I did.
But then, perhaps that difference is more due to "class" than the region of Long Island.
:-) Andrew
you could still almost easily see whether the person is from New York, Jersey Midwest New England, South, Or California and Pacific Northwest
I say a national dialect is the way to do things, people would understand everything.
I don't like the degradation of grammar, but I think that inventing new words is fine, and I use them too, which sounds wierd.
Example:
This train is moving MAD slowly.
Oh, and I think we should bring back thou and thee.
Calling somebody thou when he's supposed to be called you is a great way of disrespecting him.
Another thing we need is a gender neutral pronoun. I use he because that's the "approved" way of doing it, but mainly because using they or he/she is stupid.
Sorry, Pig, language isn't defined by committee. (It's been tried. It doesn't work. The language capacity in the brain doesn't function the way third grade English teachers pretend it functions.)
>>> Sorry, Pig, language isn't defined by committee <<<
Tell that to the French.
Tom
Sorry, Pig, language isn't defined by committee.
Not in English.
But nevertheless, does that mean we should just stop using any structure of language at all. What's the point of using is or was when we can just use been, be and will be.
Language changes not when the rifraff with their lack of knowledge changes it, but when it's accepted on all levels, like the abandonment of thou. Until then, I'm going to be inflecting my adverbs and using the word whom.
No spoken language is defined by committee. Not even French. People learn their native languages from experience -- by listening, speaking, reading, and writing the language -- not by studying a grammar textbook.
All language has structure. With no structure language would be unlearnable. The dialect that seems unstructured to you simply has a different structure than your own. No language allows pure word salad.
Take a linguistics course. Linguistics 101 at any college or university will suffice.
Sorry, it is defined by community. Just see Chinese and you will know. From the North to the South the accent varies, even the usage varies, but the written language is the same.
Committee, not community.
Of course different communities have different forms of the language. I speak somewhat differently from a Texan -- and very differently from a Parisian.
The various forms of Chinese are considered dialects of a single language for political reasons. Linguists consider them to be separate (though related) languages entirely. The general litmus test is the two forms are mutually intelligible, they're two dialects of a single language; if not, they're different languages. (I'm told Mandarin and Cantonese are mutually unintelligible. I can't verify that personally since I don't speak either.) So the Texan speaks a different dialect of English from mine while the Parisian speaks an altogether different language.
In no cases do children learn how to speak by being explicitly instructed what some body declares to be the official language -- i.e., by committee. (The human language capacity is just not geared to learn in that fashion.) Rather, they learn whatever language (and dialect) is spoken around them -- i.e., by community.
>>> I don't like the degradation of grammar, but I think that inventing new words is fine <<<
AP;
You have to put in the smiley face ":-)" when you are kidding. Your example "This train is moving MAD slowly" has no new words but is just a grammatically incorrect way of saying "This train is moving maddingly slowly." (Assuming that is the thought you are trying to express). If it is another thought that you are trying to express, you have failed to communicate it to me.
Since communication is the main purpose of language, unnecessarily adding or changing words is counter productive. The usual reason for using slang or jargon is to hide the meaning of the words from those who are not in an "in" group.
Tom
No. I'm using the slang word mad. You have to be around teenagers to know what it means. It DOES NOT mean maddening or maddeningly.
In any case, the use of the word is common enough so that your lack of understanding is your problem, and not my using it. I can't go around using every little word just because somebody isn't up with the times.
"In any case, the use of the word is common enough so that your lack of understanding is your problem,"
Actually, if the purpose of language is communication, then it's both person's problem. The speaker who is not understood and the listener who doesn't understand what you are trying to say. This may may be somewhat understandable in work-related jargon. It should not be in common speech. For example, I can talk about frogs and you may know what I'm speaking about. What if I were to tell you "The housetop needs painting." or "the chair is cracked" or "the watercap is loose.". You'd likely not know what I was talking about and none of these simple problems would be resolved.
As for the word 'mad' I'd likely not know what was being said. If you and I were communicating, I'd likely not know what you were saying. It would be my problem only if I needed info from you. If you wanted something from me, you'd likely still be waiting.
Well written.
Strange how a group of people will quickly picup new jargon or slang or use a word for some other definition.
Yet, find it so difficult to endure taking a second language in school. Hind sight is 20-20. I wish applied the same concentration to be with it or together with slang terms towards my German language studies.
avid
But you're missing the point. Some communications are MEANT to obfuscate information for those "not in the know" ... for example, "SMEE cars" or "procedures of justification" ... after all, many trades muddy the waters in order to justify a premium rate for their services. And the kids know what each other's talking about. Just thought I'd play devil's advocate here.
As for the word 'mad' I'd likely not know what was being said. If you and I were communicating, I'd likely not know what you were saying. It would be my problem only if I needed info from you. If you wanted something from me, you'd likely still be waiting.
But I would never use the word mad in that sense when talking to somebody older than 25. And I wasn't talking now. I was making an example about how I use the same words that people in my age group use, but I still end my adverbs in -ly when necessary (among other things). From a practical standpoint, the suffix is a useless remnant from when word function was determined by inflection and not syntax as it is now. The same goes for nominative and accusative forms of pronouns and the various tenses of the verb to be.
So is the do in do not, but I don't know where that comes from.
I think we're all talking about the same thing here and it's a few steps away from the original post. Speech can be inclusive or exclusive, depending on the intent of the communicator. Most of us have memories of early life where parents & grandparents might have spoken in a foreign tongue so we would not understand what was being said. If exclusion is your intent, fine.
My original post centered around the use of some terms in other than their intended meaning. I doubt that their intent was to exclude me from their conversation. I doubt that they even noticed me sitting there. None the less, while they were not murdering the english language, they were not pumping it up with vitamins either.
BTW: Do you know the meaning of:
[ ] House top?
[ ] Chair?
[ ] Watercap?
Just thought I'd ask!
Maybe the verb "say" was replaced by "go" when a former President, who shall remain nameless (his initials are "RR"), liked to SAY, "There you GO again!"
Language, just 'like' everything else, changes over time.
It's actually kinda funny sometimes. I've heard people abbrivate "different" to just "diff". Ex: "I want to buy something diff today".
It's just a kids way of being diff, yo. Werd up. heh heh heh!
-Joe
I blame California for that particular teenspeak, which (even though we let them watch very little TV) has spread to my little girl.
Offsetting that, you have the Dilbert speak my wife uses. As in "What pot should we UTILIZE to boil the spaghetti?"
Both beat the "Buff" and "Muffy" speak making announcements on the new subway cars, however. If they weren't going to get people who sound like New Yorkers, they could have at least gone for the flat Midwestern accept. I thought I had left the preppies behind in college by moving to Brooklyn.
The should have held auditions, and had each station annouced by someone who lived in the neighborhood -- with a second or third language thrown in as required. Maybe that can be an upgrade on the R144.
I blame California for that particular teenspeak, which (even though we let them watch very little TV) has spread to my little girl.
Why? Do you think everybody should speak the Queen's English?
Maybe that can be an upgrade on the R144.
I can't imagine why heavy shop equipment needs automated announcements.
"I blame California for that particular teenspeak..." As a representative of the Left Coast, blame accepted. Anything dysfunctional in Western civilization should be blamed on California. Incidentally, I couldn't find the word "teenspeak" in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary.
I have seen many cars (especially on the J, L, and 7 lines) where the end lights for a car are on, even if the car is in the middle of the train. Can anyone explain why that is? Did someone forget to turn the lights off when the cars were rearranged? Was the switch stuck on ON? Or was it something else?
One does not turn on or off the end lights on a NYCT car. Inside the coupler mechanism, there is a series of switched controlled by the position of the electric portion (Except on R-44 and R-46 cars). When the portion is retrieved (uncoupled), the #22 circuit is energized - lighting either the headlights or taillights depending on the position of the reverser. When the portion is advanced as when the cars are coupled, the #22 circuit is de-energized. You should see no taillights or headlights. If they are illuminated in the middle of the train, the coupler switch is likely defective.
That explains why the taillights light up on that R-21/22 in the original Pelham 1-2-3 when Mr. Green backs away from the first car after cutting it loose from the rest of the train.
I once saw a prewar E train with the headlights on the last car illuminated. Were they on a separate circuit, since they were added to the R-1/9s later on?
The way you saw it in "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3" was the way it's supposed to work. When the electric portion retrieves, the taillights should come on. As for the R-9, I think that the 22 circuit was wired into the electric portion as well. I believe the original setup had 2 15 watt bulbs, one behind the other, with a red lens in front of the rear bulb - for taillights. They too, were controlled by the reverser.
If you mean the end signs and marker lights then whoever okayed the train did not bother to check if they were on and turn them off if they were.
Even on most NYCT equipment, the endsigns are controlled by the coupler switch. To the best of my recollection, the Redbirds are the only equipment left that has switches in the cab for the that purpose.
This happens on the older equipment when the switch is left in the "on" position. On the more modern equipment, the end signs and tail lights are automatically extinguished when the cars are added up properly.
Can anyone tell me if tomorrow is the last day for the PCC service?.......Someone named Keystone Pete said in one of his postings that it was....
I think that subsequent postings refuted my information, and that the "last day" has been pushed back a bit -- I'm not sure. Unfortunately, my post contained the last communique I received from my 2nd-hand source, and I've heard nothing since. Perhaps another subtalker will enlighten us.
The last I've heard, it's tentatively scheduled for sometime in June, and, if not by then, postponed until Labour Day.
-Robert King
You know, it's funny. I took a day off in over a year ago to take pix of the PCCs 'cause I thought they were soon to leave the road. You know, kinda "Last Days of the Newark PCC." Not that I'm eager to see them go, but if I had known it would take so long, I would have waited!
I'm already ready. I took my last trip to Newark this week before the changeover.
Branch Brook Park Station (upgraded Franklin Avenue) is all done, however its mostly closed because the trains can't open on the left. Heller Parkway is still open because the part of the BBP station that goes in that direction cannot be used by the PCCs. The line past Franklin seems to be done, I didn't check out the grade crossing over Franklin Avenue. And Orange Street has a closed middle platform (again, PCCs are right-hand only) and temporary side platforms.
I have a question though: What happens to the middle at Penn? Will they eventually move the station to the middle to eliminate the loop and "simplify" the station?
How long HAS the retirement of the PCCs been imminent? Seems like it's been about five years now- I've personally taken six 'last rides' in the last year and a half, only to find out they've been given another stay of execution. Of course, there's nothing wrong with squeezing out yet one more ride on them.
It's kind of how the Redbirds will always be scrapped "next year".
In a NYTimes article dated 4/7/2001, it states that sometime in June, 2001, the PCC will end their service for good. I hope NY Transit will make some kind of formal announcement to everyone interested in the farewell.
>>>I hope NY Transit will make some kind of formal announcement to everyone interested in the farewell. <<<
Why would NY Transit make a formal announcement about the closing of something that is not operated by them?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think you need to take a look a www.njtransit.com.....then you can see for yourself. This is not run by the City of Newark.
My apologies if this is old news. Just wanted to pass on that the R110A will be stored at Pitkin yard. This past Sunday night five cars were transfered down fron 207 St. yard (8010-8006). The move is they cut a 10 car A train 6 and 4. Add 6 cars (horses) with an adapter to the 5 car unit and pull down to Pitkin with the other 4 cars (seperate) right behind it as a crash train. The move must go to 80/Hudson St. and into the middle track. Then when behind the signal, they push the cars into the yard in order to drop them off. They are on 44 track. There is a good possiblity that the other five will come down this weekend in the same manner. From what I heard, they will be stored there for a VERY LONG time. Would they make nice pidgeon coops?
44 track huh? Pitkin No-Man's Land. That's where they put the R10's before they got scrapped.
Looks like the 110A's will be no more.
The R110A is a perfectly good train. Why are they going to scrap it?
Here's why they'll scrap it:
1. It's anything from 'perfectly good'. It along with the R110B were in the news for their terrible MDBF rates. Further, it's a 10 car set of trains. Just 10 cars. There's little use for such a train, unless you plan on pulling an r-11 stunt.
2. The cost of converting them is not worth it. For a single 10 car train? Nah, sell it for scrap. That's a much better idea.
Do we have it from a reliable source that it's going to be scrapped? Last I heard it was to be sent to KHI and modified to R142 specs. Of course that was before they signed the contract for the additional R142 units
"Last I heard it was to be sent to KHI and modified to R142 specs. Of course that was before they signed the contract for the additional R142 units "
If the R-110As are being sent to Pitkin, it sounds like mothballs to me. With the problems and delays with the R-142s, instead of fining the car builders, let them bring the 10 cars up to R-142 specs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Too bad it's covered by an apartment complex.
Take a look.
I would like to see Redbirds being made into mobile homes. They would be quite apt for the job. In fact, they would serve a good cabooses. Instead of having a trailer park, people could live in a subway car train on a siding. The Redbirds have good lighting. heating and AC. The cab could be converted into a shower stall. Some seats can be removed and beds put in place. Fiberglass could be used as a partition to create "rooms"
_dan
Just don't forget to disconnect "DaBatteries" before hosing down "Dacab." :)
Hey bubba,
Have you been on the A or E early in the A.M.?
The tennants have already moved in! Rent - a buck na half. Duplix anyone?
avid
They are a bit on the narrow side. The old BMT Standars would have been better. They could be rebuilt for airconditioning as well. They would certaintly hold up in hurricanes.
Before the redbirds go, I would like to see them transferred to the 1,3,4 (add more) and 9 temporarily. I realize the R62s/R62As don't need the same rehab as the redbirds did in the 1980s, but at least replace the buckled floors, and perhaps add electronic signs and automated announcements as well. -Nick
Better than adding the cheesy electronic signs and canned messages, why not replace those sculpted seats with the Redbird benches, and also replace the stationary overhead bar with the swinging Redbird straps?
Now THOSE would make for worthwhile modifications!
and also replace the stationary overhead bar with the swinging Redbird straps?
While electronic signs and automated announcements are very useful, replacing existing equipment is more frivolous. I agree with you on the bucket seats (they SUCK) but not on the above. Those straps are absolutely horrible. There are a limited number of them, with empty space in between that the bars don't have, the bars are conducive to having people slide over to make room, but the straps are not, forcing you to muscle your way into another part of the car or share. And the worse problem is that they swing, making them completely useless when the train swings from side to side. The only reason they have a hinge is because they were made to feel like the old leather straps, which swung because they weren't rigid. The hinge on the metal straps is a prime example of trying to bring a taste of the old to the new, when the new is incompatible.
DOWN WITH STRAPS!
Oh, and if you really think the straps are so good, then have new equipment come with straps attached to the bar like on busses, but I'd rather the TA waste their money on bloated executive salaries. :-)
Heh heh heh.
Actually, the straps swung so that you don't pull your arm out of its socket when the train swings side to side. At least that is how I saw it. Those straps gave with you rather than against you as the car swung, and to me this is a luxury item. I am not very tall, and short of modifying the entire system to get rid of track irregularities causing the swaying of the subway cars, then give STRAPhangers something that doesn't punish them for using it.
As for there being a limited number of straps in the car, I see dozens of straps two or three in from the doors not being used. There are center poles with at least eight hands on them being used in lieu of the straps at those locations. Part of the reason the straps aren't used inside of two or three from the doors is because the air conditioning units are in the way of the straps' full travel. Notice there is some sort of "pip" welded on the strap socket preventing the strap from full travel in areas around AC units. Talk about arm-busters. The car sways, the strap sways slightly, and you crunch your hand against the metal strap.
But okay, I will see you halfway in grafting mini-straps to the overhead bars as a sort of compromise.
(I would like to see Redbirds being made into mobile homes.)
Heck, I once suggested homeless housing. Call 'em temporary, and you avoid the NIMBY war. And when one neighborhood gets too hot politically, you just roll them to another.
All I really want is a train of three open-top observation cars, with Disney-style bars to keep people in the seats. Under the Sidewalks of New York" has a couple of pictures of people touring the subway in open cars in 1904, on pages 28-29. The TA could charge $10 a head for weekend tours of the system.
Well, that idea isn't far from past. Years ago, a number of surplus "el" cars from the closed 9th Ave line were sold and trucked upstate New York. They were used for a summer getaway for Sanitation employees and their families. The site was called "Camp Sanita" and Sanita Hills. So the "el" cars were basically summer bungalows which doesn't stray from your idea. I'm not sure if the cars had toilet facilites or using the "outhouse" was the norm.
Using Redbirds may be tricky. First the rust problem must be taken care of, since they will be exposed to the elements. Second, insulation of walls and ceiling to keep out the cold and heat is of course a must.
My favorite fantasy involving a decommissioned subway car was to see an R-11 sitting on its trucks used as an office for a used car lot !
The exterior would need no care except for removal of blue paint from the doors. Gut interiors so desks and other office equipment be set up. Rewire and utilize fluorescent lighting and adapt ceilings for use of central A/C. Entry would be by steps using storm door or a rear door panel. Can you imagine this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
How about the Subway sandwich franchises buying them and turning them into "Subways"? If old railroad trains can be turned into diners, why not Redbirds?
That would certainly bring a whole new meaning to the Subway franchise. They would definitely have to come out with an IRT sandwich, if not a Redbird.
Check out the archives. There was a series of posts (many of them quite witty) describing alternative names for Subway sandwiches besides "BMT".
Yes, some were excellent. And very humorous. I must say we've got a very creative group of people here.
I have a better idea for the redbirds. Send them to Philly and run them on The Market-Frankford Line. We'll take care of the reguaging and replacing the longitudinal bench seats with forward and rear facing seats. Anything is better than the M-4's.
Kodak, in their infinite wisdom, have decided to kill off Kodachrome 25. Here are some official replies from Kodak that have gone out on the Kodachrome mailing list:
--------
Greetings Robert,
Thank you for your recent note. Kodachrome 25 is being discontinued this
year. There should be enough supply to last for the year.
Thank you for contacting Kodak. If we can be of any further assistance,
please give us a call at 1-800-465-6325 extension 36100. We can be
reached Monday to Friday between the hours of 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
Eastern Standard Time.
Doug Boyko
Product Advisor
Kodak Canada, Inc.
Kodak Information Center
(800) 465-6325 (Canada only)
----
Kodak sucks!
Dear Mr. Fontana:
As Ms. Wake mentioned, KODACHROME 25 Film, will be discontinued.
However, the film will be available for purchase through the end of this
year. As an alternative, you may want to use KODACHROME 64 Film which
will continue to be manufactured.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Tammy J. Rugenstein
***********************************************************************
Tammy J. Rugenstein Eastman Kodak Company
Kodak Information Center (800) 242-2424 ext. 10
800 Lee Road-Door C, Dept. 841
Rochester, NY 14650-3109
***********************************************************************
the ekar films were discontinued a long time ago !! whats your opinion of kodak gold 400? & max 400 ?? 1200 gold for night
shooting !! also i own a sony digntal camera DSCS30 shoots good in the dark !! RAIL TRANSIT SHOTS AS WELL !!
send your response to my e mail join my MASS TRANSIT COMMENTARY on yahoo clubs & i run a digital trnasit site you can
join to post your transit shots there as well asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
hope this helps contact me & lets talk about this !!!
The Ektar name was dropped but the film itself became Kodak Royal Gold. I've still got almost a whole brick of 120 roll film Ektar in the freezer :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
so what you are saying is that kodak royal gold hides behind thier new name the formal ektar film line ?? send me some
e mail on this because the old ektar films were good stuff in thier days !! ( thanks ) .
That's what I read a few years ago, Salaam... it was definitely good stuff, I haven't shot prints in a long time though so I haven't used the Royal Gold myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yep the ektar 25 grain was excellent the 1000 speed rocked ( oh well ) !!!
So try Fuji Velvia 25. I like it.
-Dave
To my eye, colors in magazines from Fiji slides are more vivid than those from Kodak slides, but are less accurate. I haven't noticed any difference in slides projected at railfan meetings.
Any thoughts or opinions?
For me, Kodachrome slides are far less grainy than E6 slides, which are quite mucky by comparison. The E6 blues also seem to be quite off the mark compared to Kodachrome. This is just my view, and it's a personal opinion (leading to my preference for Kodachrome in general), so don't take it as the absolute word on the subject especially given that I'm very colourblind (under ideal conditions, failing on only 19 of the 24 tests in the book).
-Robert King
Thanks (I suppose).
Kodachrome 25 is considered archivally permanent; Kodachrome 64 is also, although it doesn't pass the archival testing by quite as high a score. I've been shooting K-25 ever since they discontinued K-16 about thirty years ago; guess I'll have to switch to K-64, which at times is all I've been able to get anyway. E6 process films such as Ektachrome and Fuji Velvia are much more highly saturated, and are heavy on the blues and greens (Kodachrome tends to err on the side of reds and yellows, although not nearly as far off in that direction as the E6 films are in the other direction), and the E6 chemistry is not stable at all - even in a sealed, light-tight container an E6 slide will shift significantly over fifteen years. I made the mistake of taking Ektachrome to Spain when I lived in Barcelona in 1972-1973; maybe, if I spent an hour or two per slide with Photoshop, I might be able to salvage some of them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I've been shooting K-25 ever since they discontinued K-16 about thirty years ago"
Kodachrome 16 ???
You're not talking about Kodachome II are you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes... ASA 16, as I recall, in contrast to the original Kodachrome, which was ASA 8.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was the reverse problem that actually lead to my shooting Kodachrome 25 in the first place, although I had been thinking on and off about trying some: I ended up buying some because the store I deal with had run out of Kodachrome 64. I was really getting to like Kodachrome 25 when they announced it was being cancelled too. I'll be switching back to 64 whenever 25 becomes unavailable.
As for the Ektachrome slides shot through 1972 to 1973, they wouldn't be E6 yet; there were several versions of Ektachrome film and its process, and E6 is the most recent one, having been introduced in the mid 1970s. It has proven to be better in terms of long term stability than its predecessors, but it is basically a variation of the same technology so I wouldn't trust it for long term stability especially given that it hasn't proven as stable as Kodachrome in the archivability tests anyways.
-Robert King
Most of the pictures I have taken so far for the section on the NJCL were done on K-25, although some were shot with K-64. Unfortunately the scanning and cleanup process - especially when done by an amateur such as myself - doesn't do justice to the originals. (On the other hand, it enabled me to salvage a couple of mediocre exposures.) I'll learn to live with K-64 but I'm unthrilled.
I do remember the E3 and E4 process Ektachrome (there was no E5, as I recall) but thought that the E6 came out before I left for Spain in September '72. Maybe not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wasn't there a Kodachrome 10 some time ago? It's mentioned in Gotham Turnstiles. My father used 64 for years and many of those slides are still in very good shape.
Yes, there was... I'd almost forgotten it, since I didn't shoot slides until Kodachrome II was available.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the purpose for KODACHROME 25 film and what does it look like?
All of the Kodachrome films are slide films. Railfans have traditionally used Kodachrome film for their photography because it is a slide film, satisfying the obvious desire to give slide shows, and it is also very stable - it doesn't fade as much over time as Ektachrome - which is also desirable because nobody wants to go to the trouble and expense of taking pictures only to have them wash out after a few years, and not be able to show vintage material because the slides have faded out (if you go through the galleries of vintage material on this site, you will find lots of scanned slides. I'll include some examples of Kodachrome vs. other at the bottom from this site to show how non Kodachrome can fade over time). Lastly Kodachrome is very sharp film and the colour is good too. Kodachrome 25 used to be the preferred film, and still is by some, because it has both incredible sharpness and incredibly good colour rendition. The only thing lacking is that it is very slow film (can't have the whole cake and eat it too...)
Stability examples:
Not Kodachrome
Probably Kodachrome
-Robert King
Very slow indeed. No telephoto shots unless you have a tripod.
It's 35mm ISO-25 color slide film.
-Dave
What worries me the most is how far off is all slide film to be discontinued with the rapid populariy of digital cameras.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was on the E. 3706. New T/O's are nice! she made most of her stops very smoothly. She came into Jamaica Center around 210. Hopefully soon there will be another Entry level test. So I can get in and be a Motorman by at least 20 years old
The T/O's from the open competitive are still road posting. The last class that came out (about two weeks ago) are the last of the promotionals.
If someone is road posting in the B Div, I doubt that they are from the O/C test. Those guys have just started road posting in the A Div this week and since B Div Schoolcar lasts 2 months longer...
One of the new guys was pulled from service Thursday AM after consistently stopping short of the 10 car mark (By a half to a full car length), except for the 2 stations he overran.
I plan on taking the 6 down to 14th and transferring to the N or R down to Cortland Street. Is Cortland far from the WTC?
I plan on taking the 6 down to 14th and transferring to the N or R down to Cortland Street. Is Cortland far from the WTC?
Right next to it.
Alternatively you could transfer at some point to the Lex express (4/5) and get off at Fulton St. Walk one block west and you're at the WTC. Probably save time over waiting for and riding the Never/Rarely.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave and Peter.
The groundbreaking is May 8 at 9:45 AM on Harry S. Truman Drive (near USAirways Arena, formerly known as the Capital Centre). The Largo extension will run from Addison Road to Largo Town Center making an intermediate stop at Summerfield. The Summerfield stop will be less than a mile from FedEx Field.
For more info, visit www.largotowncenter.com.
since last week, i've been seing these posters posted on top of signs are ads dealing with the location or advertisements of metrocard vending machines that slam them. the ad says things dealing with machines taking the jobs of humans. it is sad to say, that these people are so ignorant and think irrationally. can't anybody see that these machines cannot take human jobs? sometimes, the machines won't take a card, coins, dollar bills, runn out of metrocards, malfunction, glitch from time to time, or sometimes will only take exact change. these are the reasons that these machines aren't there to take jobs. they are only there to make the job easier. whoever put up those posters are stupid asses and need to think a little bit harder.
Ah, but you're wrong KHI.
Yes they are there to take jobs, but no they won't actually get anyone fired or laid off.
The TA's goal is to have only one station agent per station (in most cases) who will not handle any money and who will oversee these machines as they do in Washington and San Francisco, and have these machines do all the work. That's why the TA changed the title from Railroad Clerk to Station Agent. Tremont Av on the D is an up and coming example of the MVM program.
From TA estimates, when the MVM program is fully operational, the Station Agent title will have 50% fewer employees with job losses coming via attrition.
Now, what were you saying?
I don't see this as a problem. Technology has always eliminated jobs, especially so in the Twentieth Century. Yet somehow even with the population going up, unemployment hasn't skyrocketed.
Think about it. There used to be a person who would cut the ticket. And on the train, there was one conductor per CAR.
(Zman179)
"Ah, but you're wrong KHI"
Then KHI is married to Madonna !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why dont people use the vending machines??? I always use them its easier than spending 20 min on line to talk to a real person. The machines are in many different languages. I think the MTA has to start pushing people away from the token booth. Nobody needs a token anymore. Everyone can use a 3$ card in a year and keep refilling it. When its time for the card to run out replace the card with another card.
Its funny in the morning at 42st to see 1 or 2 people waiting for the Vending Machines and 20 or 30 waiting for the token clerk.
They should reconfigure the station at 42 street to provide 50 or 60 MVM and have one main Station AGent Booth.
Tokens can't get demagnetized; they can never have two fares deducted from them; they can't be used to track your movements; etc.
Computers still intimidate many people. Even if it costs a lot more, they'd rather give money to a fellow human.
The MTA is not in the business of catering to two-bit (no pun intended) technophobic bumpkins.
But why am I complaining. Those idiots waiting in line for the booth leave more MVMs available for me so I don't have to wait.
Sorry, you cannot do that in other systems such as Hong Kong, the ticket office does not sell single (ride) tickets. You must use a machine to buy it, but we buy an Octopus Card (a smart card something like MetroCard) through a man.
wasn't it that back in 1995, that one token booth clerk was appointed to a station booth except for the very busy stations. and up to now it has been this way even since. even when these helpful machines came into the system. and by law and through the unions, these machines aren't allowed to take jobs anyway. they are made to make the job easier. its a fact that these machines will run out of supplies ex: metrocards and change to give to passengers and then there are some passengers that are too stupid to use them and go to the clerk. thats why no jobs have been taken. so what are you talking about?
The MVMs are too unreliable. I am a lunch relief and travel from booth to booth in different stations. I have seen numerous machines with some problem (the top message area is orange rather than green) and even machines that were down (top message area is red).
Consider the steps to buy a card from a machine:(I am using one line to save space(:
start-language- english-new card- regular-other-3-0-0-cash- bill 1- bill 2- bill 3- no.
Refills:
start-language-english-refill-other-etc.
Human: I'd like a $3 card- hand money to S/A-card is encoded-custopmer gets card.
The human is quicker than the machine according to a letter to the editor in the Daily News as seen in a booth.
To make the machines quicker I'd redo the menus simlar to ATM menus.
First screen lists the languages Then a series of items appears:
$3 card, $6 card, $15 card, other. Right side: refill card, 7 day card, monthly card, express bus card.
After selecting the choice then it would ask for payment method.
Look at NJT's machines- they are quicker even though you have to enter your destination code.
The MVMs are too unreliable. I am a lunch relief and travel from booth to booth in different stations. I have seen numerous machines with some problem (the top message area is orange rather than green) and even machines that were down (top message area is red).
The humans are too unreliable, they're often not understandable, slow and screw up. Not to mention surly.
Consider the steps to buy a card from a machine:(I am using one line to save space(:
start-language- english-new card- regular-other-3-0-0-cash- bill 1- bill 2- bill 3- no.
Refills:
start-language-english-refill-other-etc.
Just because something has more steps doesn't mean it's more difficult. In fact, the step-by-step concept of the MVM makes it easier because it walks you through.
And this of course assumes I use bills, which I never do. With an employment inefficiency station agent, you can only use change. And what if I wanted to say YES after that? the human can give you squat as a receipt.
Human: I'd like a $3 card- hand money to S/A-card is encoded-custopmer gets card.
The Station agent has to do all that too. Why don't we all just stop doing anything and have butlers do everything for us? I would prefer a lower fare or more investment in useful services than paying for an overpriced monkey to operate Metrocard vending machines.
After selecting the choice then it would ask for payment method.
Look at NJT's machines- they are quicker even though you have to enter your destination code.
They are only quicker the first time. Once you know what to do (how many times does that take? twice) it's not a problem. Except of course for those with hollow skulls. But I'm not paying a higher fare or enduring with worse services to subsidize those people. They can walk.
MVM replace low paying low skilled clerk positions with better paid highly skilled technician jobs. Its a win win !! Cost savings + quicker Service + better pay
In terms of speed. I am able to purchace an unlimited ride metrocard, credit card aproval and all in less than 30 secounds. The step by step aproach is the right way to go. The screens come up quick. And they are easy to use no matter what language the user is.
The NJ transit vending machines are slow as crap. THe credit card reader is really sensitive and slows everything down. THe screen is hard to read. Every time I go through hoboken terminal the line at the vending machines moves slowly.
THe MVM is the best thing to come along since the end of two fare zones
THe MTA finally got it right
The MVMs are not too user friendly. The customers do not use the machines in many stations. The customer wants a $3 card and all they have is a twenty. The machine asks if they want a twenty dollar card and they dont read and end up with a $20 card and then storm up to the window and let me know that the bleeping machine took their money. I ask them if I can check their card and show them that they have a $20 card. SOme want a refund which we cannot give so I have to tell them to mail it in and hand them an envelope. The single ride card must be sued within two hours. I have seen people buy them in advance and gripe to me when it does not work. They also gripe because thwe single ride card has no bus to subway or subway to bus transfer.
Maintenance: Many machines run out of change or take coins only or bills only or debit/credit cards only.
The MVMs are not too user friendly. The customers do not use the machines in many stations.
That doesn't mean the machines aren't user-friendly. That means the people are idiots.
The customer wants a $3 card and all they have is a twenty.
What about when a customer wants a card of any value and all they have is a credit or debit card? I think that catering to people who want to buy cheap things with big bills is less important that credit/debit transactions.
The machine asks if they want a twenty dollar card and they dont read and end up with a $20 card and then storm up to the window and let me know that the bleeping machine took their money.
As I said, they're idiots. It's a hell of a lot easier to read the screen in plain [insert name of language] than trying to understand the agents accent, especially through that stupid speaker system.
The single ride card must be sued within two hours
All those lawyer ads in the subway, I'm sure they want to limit suits and I don't blame them! :-) j/k
In any case, stockpiling a SingleRide is stupid, because there are value Metrocards.
They also gripe because thwe single ride card has no bus to subway or subway to bus transfer.
Neither does a token.
Maintenance: Many machines run out of change or take coins only or bills only or debit/credit cards only.
The booth can also theoretically run out of change.
And anyway, I can't imagine why somebody wouldn't have a debit or credit card.
Except for ghettotrash that's stupid enough to cash their welfare check at the check cashers instead of opening a bank account.
And anyway, I can't imagine why somebody wouldn't have a debit or credit card.
For many people, especially those who have had serious financial problems over the years, even a debit card is too much of a temptation. Obviously a debit card in an MVM isn't going to be a temptation per se, but carrying that debit card - rather than a limited amount of cash - might trigger overspending in some people. My son-in-law was a prime example of this, until my daughter put him (financially) on a short leash.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But in that case, the MTA shouldn't cater to them by having to give people change for a $50 bill to buy a $6 card. That's their choice to limit their payment options.
Up to a point I'll agree. But the $20 bill is the standard bill nowadays and to not give change for that, regardless of the size of the purchase, doesn't cut it with me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The human takes a fifty when you buy $30 or more and we take a $100 when you buy $63 or more. The machines never take $50 or $100.
You also stated booths can run out of change-- we can have our cleaner go to other booths in the station to get change or even go to a store on the street to get change or call our supervisor. We can also call other booths nearby and have our cleaner go to that station to egt change.
We do not have keys to the machines and have to call Stations at Jay Street to report a machine problem. The supervisor at Jay Street will then have the machine problem referred to a maintainer who will come with one or more revenue employees to service the machine.
If the machines are out in a station and there is no human how will you buy a card. At this time, if the human's computer is down we can sell you a pre-encoded card in some stations or even a token.
What will machines do when train service is suspended due to a block in train service. A human will issue block tickets and advise of alternate service wehich can have frequent changes.
A human can correct some mistakes such as $15 card rather than a $17 card. With the machines you mail in the card and get no new card until they mail you a new card. If a turnstile wont let you in and there is a human, we can buzz you in.
I know we are as popular as the IRS but we perform a valuable service to Transit and our customers. Can a machine call for help if someone falls to the tracks--NO! If our booth is at platform level we can call for help and in some cases actually shut off the track power from our booth using an emergency panel in the booth.
We may stop sales at some point but we are needed- We are the eyes and ears of the system.
I realize this is a problem for many people, but I have trouble understanding it.
If you have $100 to your name and you charge $75 to your credit card, you now only have $25. Period. End of story. See something you want to buy for $50? Sorry, you don't have $50 to spend. (If, due to a true emergency, you have no choice but to charge more than you can pay, a credit card gives you the option of quickly taking out a loan, but like any loan, it will cost you. Credit cards also allow you, without penalty, to spend money that you don't have today but are absolutely certain you will have within a month or so.)
This isn't a major problem with checks. After all, what's stopping someone with $100 from writing out one check for $75 and another for $50? Yet I've never heard of anyone who thinks that bouncing checks is okay -- thieves do it, and occasionally someone innocent but disorganized does it by accident, but nobody rampantly bounces checks under the impression that it's a perfectly normal and honest thing to do. But the banks have trained people to use credit cards as (nearly) unlimited supplies of free money, never mind the consequences.
Now if that isn't a racist remark then I have never heard one! "Ghettotrash" what are you God's gift? Some people don't have the option to live in some upscale neighborhood, which I would assume is where you are from using a term like that. And think about this if the person is on welfare it means they need money. Well if you have to keep a min. of $100 in your account, where you gonna get it? Barely getting by on welfare means you don't have the $100 to keep in there. $100 compared to $3 at the check cashing place, you choose.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I'm afraid that most people on welfare wouldn't have any difficulty putting aside $100 (that's not $100 per month, that's not $100 per year, that's just plain $100 one time). Instead of spending that $100 on something (anything not essential -- new clothing, prepared food, two or three months of cable TV, or, for that matter, a new TV to replace the old one that just broke), use it to open a bank account, where it will earn interest (if it's a decent bank), avoid the $3 check cashing fees (earning back the principal in under three years -- that's not a bad rate of return), and enable the accountholder to use modern modes of payment.
There are even banks out there that don't have minimum balances. Many of the Internet banks, for instance, don't, although they typically have minimum initial deposits of $100 or so.
>>> I'm afraid that most people on welfare wouldn't have any difficulty putting aside $100 <<<
From your post, it appears that you have never had the misfortune of being really poor. For most of the really poor there is no need to decide what to do with $100.00. There is never an extra $100.00. The really big decisions are whether to pay a portion of the electric bill, or a portion of the gas bill to keep the utilities from being turned off.
Tom
I realize that for some, saving $100 is impossible. Fortunately I have never been in such a position.
For most, though, saving $100 is a matter of shifting priorities. Do most people on welfare steer clear of convenience foods (which cost many times their raw ingredients), fast food joints, designer clothing? Do most people on welfare not replace the TV when the old one breaks? (FWIW, I didn't have a TV for the 3+ years I lived in Illinois. I didn't miss a thing.)
Instead of paying a portion of the gas or electric bill, how about using less gas or electricity? Turn off the lights when they're not needed, turn off the TV (here we go again), turn down the heat a few degrees, especially overnight or while you're out (assuming you pay for your own heat).
Unemployed? Find a minimum wage job. Quit after half a week and you've already earned your $100.
I realize some already do without the discretionary spending, already keep the heat as low as they can bare, and already work or are unemployable. Most, though, could easily come up with the $100.
The more desperate you are, the more you have need of some kind of luxury.
Quite a few Internet banks, strapped for cash and unable to sell more stock, are raising their minimum balances and fees, while lowering interest rates (either by themselves or by being acquired).
Quite a few Internet banks, strapped for cash and unable to sell more stock, are raising their minimum balances and fees, while lowering interest rates (either by themselves or by being acquired).
Indeed, the Internet banking world is suffering. Still, there are some banks out there that don't have minimum balances. NetBank's basic checking account, for instance, has no minimum balance, charges no fees for basic use, and pays 2% interest.
Now if that isn't a racist remark then I have never heard one! "Ghettotrash" what are you God's gift?
You are a racist. Why is it that your feeble mind has to assume that "ghettotrash" are the opposite race of me?
How do you even know my race?
Some people don't have the option to live in some upscale neighborhood, which I would assume is where you are from using a term like that.
It has nothing to do with where people live. I STAND BY my statement that legal immigrants and citizens that use check cashing instead of savings accounts are stupid trash. If a person from the "ghetto" uses a savings account then they're not stupid and not trash.
And think about this if the person is on welfare it means they need money. Well if you have to keep a min. of $100 in your account, where you gonna get it? Barely getting by on welfare means you don't have the $100 to keep in there. $100 compared to $3 at the check cashing place, you choose.
Most banks are required to have low minimum balances (one cent) for accounts for low-income persons.
If one can't speak English and is weary of big banks then fine, but after a couple of years in this country there is NO EXCUSE.
I will not retract my statement just because a race-baiter (you brought race into this, remember?) wants me to.
You should make a career out of being so hostile -- maybe a radio talk show host would fit.
> idiots
> stupid
> ghettotrash
Debit cards are risky; if someone gets the card number he can drain your bank account and bounce checks. When the fraud is discovered, you'll get your money back, but probably not the bounced check fees. Some people don't ever go into debt, and thus don't acquire a credit rating, so can't get a credit card.
Some people don't ever go into debt, and thus don't acquire a credit rating, so can't get a credit card.
There are other ways of getting credit cards. I have a low limit high interest card, but if I pay in full by the due date (and the low limit guarantees it will never be too high for me) on the bill, I pay no fees and interest.
Now keeping up with your debts that way is a great way to get credit.
Anybody with a job can get a standard credit card. And I don't even have a job.
I've never gone into debt and I have lots of credit cards. Too many, in fact -- I think it's time to go on a canceling spree. (Most sit around, never used.)
A lengthy article by Al Frank in Thursday's Star-Ledger discusses PATH's growing interest in extending from Newark Penn Station to the airport (not to the corridor monorail station).
This will be interesting to follow, especially what New York City's reaction will be if the Port Authority builds a one-seat ride from WTC to Newark Airport (or one-transfer ride from Herald Square), while insisting that the Airtrain link to JFK can only go to Jamaica and Howard Beach, with no direct connection into the rest of the city, while planning no direct connection whatsoever between LaGuardia and Manhattan or even central Queens.
If I were Guiliani, Pataki or any of the current mayoral candidates, I'd go ballistic if the Port Authority does this. Not that it's not the right idea -- it is -- but if it's right for EWK, it should be right for JFK and LGA as well.
(This will be interesting to follow, especially what New York City's reaction will be if the Port Authority builds a one-seat ride from WTC to Newark Airport (or one-transfer ride from Herald Square), while insisting that the Airtrain link to JFK can only go to Jamaica and Howard Beach, with no direct connection into the rest of the city, while planning no direct connection whatsoever between LaGuardia and Manhattan or even central Queens.)
They'd better have a cariac specialist on hand when they tell Giuliani about that one. YIKES! Perhaps they'll even use the passenger facility charge collected at LaGuardia to build the one-seat ride to EWK!
Just when I had forgotton about my pipe dream of triangle service in both directions among the three airports, the PA goes and rekindles my false hope.
"This will be interesting to follow, especially what New York City's reaction will be if the Port Authority builds a one-seat ride
from WTC to Newark Airport (or one-transfer ride from Herald Square), while insisting that the Airtrain link to JFK can only
go to Jamaica and Howard Beach, with no direct connection into the rest of the city, while planning no direct connection
whatsoever between LaGuardia and Manhattan or even central Queens."
You forget that while PATH can be extended to Newark Airport for far less than a billion dollars, the original quoted price for a complete AirTrain to Manhattan was $5.6 billion. The line under construction now costs $1.5 billion.
Don't accuse the PA of hypocrisy before you get your facts straight.
BTW, I support extending PATH to Newark Airport. Once the East Side Access project is done, I think it's also a good idea to try to extend direct Airport service to Manhattan. We'll see what happens.
Ron, try compairing subway to subway here, not subway to passenger rail, which is what the Port Authority is trying to do. If the PA had built the Airtrain to IND/BMT specs in the first place there could be a one-seat ride to Manhattan, just as there will be to Newark Airport if the PATH plan is approved.
God didn't split the clouds and send down stone tablets telling the PA they had to build a completly incompatiable rail line with the subway (or LIRR for that matter) -- they did it on their own to keep the city and the MTA out of their precious airports, while in New Jersey, apparently it's OK if their subway line goes to their other airport (and BTW, what happened to all those airline protests about running a regular mass transit line to the airports?)
I happen to think the PATH plan is OK too, but don't get the idea the PA had no other alternative in the LaGuardia and JFK deals. If Airtrain was hooked up to the A train at Howard Beach and to the E train at Parsons/Jamaica, the tracks into the rest of Queens and to Brooklyn and Manhattan would already be in place, and wouldn't cost $5.6 billion. The Howard Beach link would have only required a flying junction, while the ramp down to the tunnel for the E would have been a little more costly.
The PA is using that $5.6 billion number based on a plan that they would build a brand new line all the way into Manhattan with an Penn Station or Grand Central connection -- in other words, they're funding for a Mercedes when a Ford or Chevy would do. But in New Jersey, they've come to their senses and decided that a `discount' link to the airport isn't such a bad idea after all.
IMHO, the PA has no clue what theyre doing. First a monorail to a station on the NEC, then a PATH train to EWR. Meanwhile, no acess to LGA, and an amazingly overpriced, and very limp amusement park ride from JFK to Jamacia. Just where all those important business travelers need to go :/
I don't get the point behind Airtrain at all. It's a wasteful duplication of existing lines, and it serves no real purpose anyway.
Besides, weren't they supposed to drop a monorail in around JFK decades ago? I vaugely remember seeing piled up cars for it when i was a kid.
Could be worse. CT built a monorail around Bradley Airport, then tore it down. Two cars still remain at Warehouse point. Inever understood THAT move either - anyne know more?
CT built a monorail around Bradley Airport, then tore it down. Two cars still remain at Warehouse point. I never understood THAT move either - anyone know more?
From what I understand it was a technological disaster, from both a maintenance and a safety standpoint. Others out here may have more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As usual, the State of Connecticut went for the lowest bidder without checking out the product. The result was, as you put it, a disaster. The system was down almost all of the time. Also, because Bradley is comparatively compact, it was unnecessary. (What they have now are shuttle buses that take you DIRECTLY to your car in the long term parking lots.)
When I was with the Port Authority in 68-71, one of the project I worked on was extending PATH to Newark Airport. So, even if this comes to pass, it is at least 30 years in development! Of course, the question is why they are both extending the Monorail to Penn Station Newark AND extending PATH to the Airport. And, as everyone has commented here, why don't they simply extend the subway to JFK? As pointed out, the Rockaway line goes right to the airport and it is a simple connection there. (Assuming that the PA mentality is the same as when I worked there, the answer is (a) don't cooperate with anyone else and (b) build it gold plated, if not solid gold.)
"And, as everyone has commented here, why don't
they simply extend the subway to JFK? As pointed out, the Rockaway line goes right to the airport and it is a simple
connection there."
The MTA rejected that idea. The MTA has a one-track ROW leading into JFK and elected not to use it. One of the reasons was that MTA does not like a lot of branching off its lines - it complicates their train operations. The 8th Av-Fulton Line has a branch to Lefferts; it has a branch to the Rockaways which itself branches again when it hits the beach. MTA did not want the hassle of yet one more branch into the airport. Reardless of how you reletter or reroute the services, it's a hassle.
Please note that I am not defending their logic, only reporting it. The fact is, the MTA does not want to do that, and there's little chance of forcing them to do it. The Port Authority, on the other hand, did want to build something - and accomplished it.
There has been a lot of talk blasting the PA and MTA for not building a one-seat rapid transit ride to and from New York City. I respectfully argue that a one-seat ride to JFK may not be the smartest engineering.
The primary benefit to a one-seat ride is convenience. There is no denying this fact. It is the travelers who will use Airtrain, and Airtrain should be designed with the traveler in mind. However, there are several disadvantages to extending the subway to serve the purpose of Airtrain. I argue that in the end, the sum of the inconveniences outweigh the convenience of a one seat ride.
First, a subway is designed to serve a specific purpose: rapid transit. The design of the doors, seats, and interior are all dictated by the needs of rapid transit. JFK Airport does not need heavy rapid transit. It needs a means of connecting passengers with other locations inside and adjacent to JFK. To illustrate my point, I will use the example of luggage. Connecting passengers have luggage. Is an R-68 the best place for your luggage? The doors are narrow, and there aren't any luggage racks. And why is that? Because the R-68 was designed for a very different purpose. How many morning commuters are schlepping suitcases on a downtown A train out of 207th Street? Not very many, and that is why there are no luggage racks. Should passengers needing to catch a flight in another terminal be forced to cram all their belongings through the doors of an R-68? Now the argument can be made that separate Airtrain cars could run from Manhattan to JFK on a connecting subway line. But what good are these cars to morning commuters, or the MTA for that matter? Due to added amenities, an Airtrain car may have a higher maintenance requirement. The Airtrain interior can be designed much less resistant to vandalism and more comfortable to passengers without the MTA having to lose sleep over it.
Second, the predicted passenger load of a given Airtrain would be very different. Is the best use for an eight-car consists of R-68s to go from terminal to terminal at JFK? How many people can an R-68 hold? You could argue that the passengers would have plenty of room for their luggage on the unused seats, but this is nothing more than trying to turn a Philips head screw with a flat head screwdriver. Yes, some Airtrain passengers will still have to use the subway to get to JFK, but not all passengers will come to JFK by subway. Those using the parking facilities and more importantly going from terminal to terminal will still require the appropriate accommodations. It could be argues that separate, smaller consists could be used for direct JFK connections. My response to this is: why doesn't the MTA already use more frequent, smaller consists for other service?
Third, let us assume a direct connection to the airport is made from the A train with a new branch line. That is the argument that I have heard most often. I believe that scheduling complexities would lead to inconvenient service that outweighs the lack of a one-seat ride. As Ron mentioned, the MTA is opposed to excessive branching of lines for a reason. The JFK-bound A trains would have to share the rails with all the other queens-bound A trains. Let us assume for the sake of argument that there is capacity for these added A trains. Now, instead of being able to take any Rockaway A train and transferring to Airtrain, you have to take a JFK-bound A train. These JFK-bound A trains have to be scheduled in between all the other queens-bound A trains. What would the headway of JFK-bound A trains be? Would this lead to less frequent service?
Finally, there is the argument that other airports have direct connection to rapid transit. I argue that it is not appropriate to compare many of these other airports to JFK. It's like comparing the Boston T to the New York City subway. Guests of mine from Boston couldn't understand how it took so long to get from the Upper East Side to downtown on a late night 4. "But the red line only makes 4 stops." they would say. I tried to explain to them that there is just a difference in scale. JFK is on a different scale than many other airports. It is very spread out due to its shear size (and poor planning), and really has two needs: 1) a connection to rapid transit, and 2) a means of providing intra-airport connections.
Many of these other airports are more similar to JFK in the end. I was just recently at Atlanta, and had the benefit to observe the MARTA connection right up to the terminal. Atlanta is really a two-seat ride too! You take rapid transit to the airport, and then a specialized tram to your terminal. This is, of course, if you're going anywhere but to the closest terminal (T, I think). Although inconvenient in my opinion due to its deep depth underground, the tram is specialized with what appear to be wider doors for carrying passengers between terminals. It can be argued that the MARTA plus tram at Atlanta is no different than the MTA plus Airtrain, just with less distance involved.
In conclusion, I feel that a direct connection is not the smartest engineering. Yes, there were politics and fighting between the MTA and PA that contributed to a two-seat ride. Perhaps there's a one-seat alternative that overcomes the obstacles that I've mentioned here? I wasn't smart enough to figure it out while researching Airtrain, but maybe somebody else here is. Until then, it is my opinion that the inconveniences out-weigh the conveniences. Hey, folks, I would like nothing more than to ride around JFK looking out the railfan window of an R-32, but I realize that this is just a misuse of equipment. We need to use the right tool for the right job.
MATT-2AV
I agree with your points. Too many people, here and elsewhere, have pronounced Airtrain stone-cold dead before it's even born. Give it a chance!
There's one other thing. It is true that a train from the airport running directly to Manhattan on its own right of way would be the absolute "gold standard." But it is equally true that such a train has precisely a zero chance of ever being built. As the old saw goes, half a loaf is better than none.
Amen to that.
Excellent point.
you are right. One thing that certainly will hurt AirTrain is an irrational and premature proclamation that it is nothing but an incompatible boondoggle.
And that argument is really self-defeating.
So let's say the nay-sayers are right; AirTrain suffers from low ridership. What if we had spent billions more to construct what you refer to as the "gold standard" of a direct subway connection to Manhattan? I can't buy into the asserton that vast numbers of people would be turned away by having to make a connection. A more expensive direct connection would then suffer from low ridership as well.
Moreover, the lack of ridership due to a two-seat ride only affects the portions of AirTrain extending to the subways. The same number of people must still change terminals and get to the parking lots, and they don't care if it's on an R-68 or an AirTrain (unless they're railfans).
Thank you very much for your intelligent response. It got me thinking more,
MATT-2AV
Also it assumes that everybody will be coming from Penn Station or its environs. They will be not. Many of them will come from other parts of the region.
Your argument about the best use of an R-68 is one I had not considered. Thank you for that - yes, a rail consist intended primarily for airport use would be built a bit differently than a train for daily mass transit use.
And your consideration of MARTA is very smart. Indeed, if the inter-terminal tram (the T gates are the closest to the main terminal) were replaced by simply having the MARTA subway run under the terminals, the system's construction would have been more complicated, subway service itself might have been adversely affected by the multiple, frequent stops, and there would have been other problems.
In Washington DC, Metrorail stops at National (Reagan) Airport, but that access is to the main terminal. Ditto for a possible arrangement at LaGuardia.
I enjoyed reading your post - learned something from it.
No, thank you.
I have learned a lot from your posts. I think I refered directly to your argument against branching of subway lines. Your intelligent statements on AirTrain have helped me formulate my own argument. And here I was expecting to get flamed for that post...
To continue on your hypothetical situation of a direct subway connection to each terminal at Atlanta, now imagine if the MARTA train (after making stops at each terminal), had to re-enter the mainline and be scheduled in between other MARTA trains coming off another branch.
Airport passenger loading charectaristics may be very different than your typical platform loading. A whole bunch of flights deplane at one time, the subway is held up at terminal E, it can't be passed, and everyone else in the system is standing on the platform wondering what is going on. This is just hypothetical, and I'm not saying technology can't overcome this, but you raise a very good point.
Thanks again,
MATT-2AV
Spoken like a gentleman sir. Welcome to the few and the proud on this board... the AirTrain defenders.
CG
Thank you very much. I appreciate it and look forward to contributing more (AirTrain defense and other topics) in the future. As I said to Ron, and here I was expecting to get flamed for this post...
MATT-2AV
I'm not sure that I agree with your conclusions, but I certainly understand your argument. Like most of us here I welcome a carefully-considered viewpoint, from whatever perspective it might come. Welcome!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
well reasoned, but I believe several issues were neglected.
Item one, As many others have said before, and I believe they are correct, a very large number of the riders to and from the airports will in fact be employees. Most of them will be lightly encumbered.
Item, The choice of non-compatible equipment is just dumb. Want a BetaMax, cheap? Both for maintenance and procurement purposes, the cars should have been either PATH/IRT, or IND/BMT specs--common parts sourcing = lower costs.
Item, The ex LIRR branch should have been used, MOT ONLY because it was there, but because for the longer distance rider, the ultimately better setup should include service directly from the airport area over Hell Gate at least as far as New Haven. (Yes I know the third rail formats are different, but I believe the overhead is the same.)
All that said, we will all use what gets built second rate as it may be.
"Item one, As many others have said before, and I believe they are correct, a very large number of the riders to and from the
airports will in fact be employees. Most of them will be lightly encumbered."
Even if you are right (we'll know soon enough, no reason for me to debate that here), JFK has over 30,000 employees. If we get a big % of their cars off the road, we've accomplished something.
"The choice of non-compatible equipment is just dumb. Want a BetaMax, cheap? Both for maintenance and procurement
purposes, the cars should have been either PATH/IRT, or IND/BMT specs--common parts sourcing = lower costs.
Item, The ex LIRR branch should have been used,"
Without adequate tunnel capacity to Manhattan, an impractical choice. As to the equipment used, well, Dave, as we know, political considerations are often "blown off" on this site. Maybe that's good - but this is an artificial environment.
Let's give the PA some credit here. The construction process has been first-rate, even according to critics. Try to hold your fire until you actually see this thing operating.
By the way, the Van Wyck guideway is complete through Linden Blvd., and the segment turning off at Atlantic Av is in place as well. My guess is that train testing can begin by sometime in the fall.
one of these evenings when I have nothing better to do, I am going to tally up the scheduled LIRR/PRR movements in an early fifties Railway Guide to compare with today. I expect to find that net train capacity has fallen.
come fall, I expect to come East to see family & friends. I will take a look
>>If we get a big % of their cars off the road,
we've accomplished something.<<
YES! whether a concession worker or an airline worker, every one moved over to transit is better for all our lungs. BTW my vision would be any employee at JFK should get a monthly pass as a job perk.
"YES! whether a concession worker or an airline worker, every one moved over to transit is better for all our lungs. BTW my
vision would be any employee at JFK should get a monthly pass as a job perk."
Yes! Actually, I think every employee working in the City of New York should get a free monthly unlimited MetroCard as a benefit and/or a discount off monthly commuter rail passes. "Transitchek" should be expanded.
Actually, I think every employee working in the City of New York should get a free monthly unlimited MetroCard as a benefit and/or a discount off monthly commuter rail passes. "Transitchek" should be expanded.
One problem with Transitchek is that it's a New York-only program. As a result, employers that have operations elsewhere besides New York confront issues of fairness if they decide to give their New York people Transitchek - what do the other people get?
Are you saying that MARTA, Los Angeles County MTA, SEPTA, MBTA etc. do not have similar programs?
Ron, I don't think that's his point. Here's a hypothetical example: ZYX Corp. has its headquarters in mid-town Manhattan employing 400 people, its design and development office in a Utica, New York office park employing another 400 people, and its manufacturing facility in Tarboro, North Carolina employing another 400 people. Now, is it going to offer TransitCheck to its headquarters folks, which include its highest-paid employees (many of who will never use it, since they have their limos to take them to and from their suburban estates), and not be able to offer such a perk to its middle-class salaried folks in Utica or its hourly factory workers in Tarboro? I don't think so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> is it going to offer TransitCheck to its headquarters folks, which include its highest-paid employees (many of who will never use it, since they have their limos to take them to and from their suburban estates), and not be able to offer such a perk to its middle-class salaried folks in Utica or its hourly factory workers in Tarboro? <<<
Why not? Most national companies have regional differentials in their pay scales for different parts of the county. As far as cities are concerned, free parking in Utica or Tarboro could be seen there as the equivalent of TransitCheck in New York. I worked for a company that provided one class of employees with all expense paid company cars for transportation to customers' offices (with a milage reimbursement for personal use) in most of the country (they had 4 employees for the whole state of Montana, 400 for the County of Los Angeles), but did not in Manhattan because it was not practical to travel by car. In Manhattan there was a salary differential and paid public transportation.
Tom
Thank you for elaborating. Yes, you're right, employers with scattered sites have a potential problem. However, you are too quick to dismiss the impact of Transitchek on headquarters employees.
Not all HQ employees are highly paid executives who take limousines. In fact, most will probably be admin. assistant types who really could use Metrocards. Moreover, in New York esp., the subway carries a lot of people with six figure salaries.
But, your point about fairness is well-taken. What does the employer offer somebody in Utica or Syracuse? Well, a free or reduced monthly bus pass might be useful to some; free gasoline at the company pumps and free parking for vans carrying at least 3 or 4 employees to work might be useful to others; and so on (asking employees for suggestions is usually a good thing). The point is that there is a menu of options open to employeesThus, the company can utilize all these measures to help its employees, and need not hold back on TransitChek in New York.
Ron, I don't think that's his point. Here's a hypothetical example: ZYX Corp. has its headquarters in mid-town Manhattan employing 400 people, its design and development office in a Utica, New York office park employing another 400 people, and its manufacturing facility in Tarboro, North Carolina employing another 400 people. Now, is it going to offer TransitCheck to its headquarters folks, which include its highest-paid employees (many of who will never use it, since they have their limos to take them to and from their suburban estates), and not be able to offer such a perk to its middle-class salaried folks in Utica or its hourly factory workers in Tarboro? I don't think so.
That's similar to the situation with my employer. Although the division headquarters is in New York, there are more employees at other sites in the country, mainly in suburban Dallas and St. Paul. As far as I know, there's basically nothing in the line of mass transit in either location, obviously therefore no equivalent to Transitcheck. Giving a valuable benefit to the New York workers would not necessarily be fair to the others.
But you can give equivalent benefits to other employees. Mass transit benefits so many people, directly or indirectly, that it is important for employers to encourage its use. If employees in Kansas City don't have great mass transit, fine, give them free bus passes but also offer them free parking and free company gas for carpools carrying at least 3 or 4 people. Maybe if enough people are encouraged to use public transportation, the local authorities will invest a bit more in it to improve it. Los Angeles is far from offering the kind of service available in New York, but in 2001 it is much better than it was in 1979, when I finished high school and got my first job.
Or: Ask the employees themselves for suggestions! This way they're involved in the decision-making.
Every city is set up differently. Fear of offending employees in Seattle is not a legitimate reason for not offering Transitchek to NYC workers.
Both Dallas(FW) and the Twin Cities have LRV rail transit(Dallas running, extensions in design, TC in build)
transitchek also exists in many other cities, SF, San Jose, for instance.
It isn't just New York, Peter.
The Maryland MTA is advertising Transitchek, on Car/Bus cards, roadside signs and on their website Maryland MTA
Don't know the status of the pitch, but at least they are trying.
Well, I realy dought it is the same TransitChek. Various cities in the US now have programs where your employeer takes money out of your pay & buys a mass transit pass. There is a tax saving & sometimes some matching funds from the employeer, or at least a discount on the cost of the fares.
In NYC you can get a physical check (folks send my company this check & we send them some MetoCards). There are also weekly, monthly & yearly TransitChek style MetroCards. The newest is the "Premium" version with a distinctive yellow vs. grey color. It's a monthly card that automatically renews for a year, then they send you a new card.
Mr t__:^)
I agree with your post. NYC is a big city. People come from many different areas to use JFK. Having only one specific route from Penn is impractical. I'm not familar with who uses JFK, but I assume more people from Long Island use it more often than people from Jersey, who have EWR at their disposal. Having AirTrain connect to Jamiaca makes more sense.
As for Hartsfield, your observations that it's still a two seat ride are mostly correct, except for one important detail and that is the people mover is within security. People using it do not have the luggage that people would be carrying on AirTrain, because their baggage is already checked. This seperates ATL's (in my opinion, superior) two seat ride from JFK's two seat ride.
"As for Hartsfield, your observations that it's still a two seat ride are mostly correct, except for one important detail and that is
the people mover is within security. People using it do not have the luggage that people would be carrying on AirTrain, because
their baggage is already checked. This seperates ATL's (in my opinion, superior) two seat ride from JFK's two seat ride."
That's a good point. Not having to slog with all your bags makes Hartsfield's tram all the more attractive. And it is heavily used.
There is some discussion at the PA about that. One possibility, I think, is that another car could be hooked up to an AirTrain consist just to hold baggage. The "check-in" could be done at Jamaica Station , and once on airport property, the entire entire "baggage car" could be offloaded at once.
Now, I haven't thought this thing through, so I am skipping problems, oversimplifying and being very superficial. I do not know whether that approach is truly practical.
The baggage car sounds like it could work. Since the bags would already have the tags on them, they would only be handled by baggage personnel at the terminals. But then there's the problem of organizing which bag goes to what terminal, since each terminal has its own dedicated baggage handlers that typically don't handle other airlines' baggage. Mistakes are bound to happen.
You're right. One possible answer would be to designate a stop where all the bags would be offloaded, and then JFK personel would handle the rest of the process. Another would have the baggage car divided by bulkheads into terminal bins, with the bags loaded according to their destinations. Each option has pluses and minuses. The first option would have the problem of possibly excessive delays while bags were offloaded. With the second option, the PA could use pallets which could be wheeled off the train into the terminal, and from there emptied into the baggage conveyor. You'd need up to 9 pallets - I don't know if that would work or not. Maybe the PA could test it while the system itself is being tested.
The utilization of the 3 main NYC is roughly this:
EWR -- International and Domestic travelers (business and personal) from New Jersey and Staten Island. Some Manhattan usage (business or personal). International travel from EWR is generally limited to the major European countries and the Caribbean.
LGA -- Flights of about 3.5 hours or less. Domestic flights only (except Canada). Huge business travel clientele, given the proximity to Manhattan. Probably a higher percentage of business travellers and day-trippers than any other US Airport. Majority of leisure travel seems to be Florida oriented (or Florida with connections to the Caribbean/Mexico/Central America/South America. Local clientele is NYC other than Staten Island, Long Island, Westchester, Southern Connecticut.
JFK -- International flights and Domestic long distance flights. Given the length of the flights, most business passengers are coming from (or going to) home rather than to a Manhattan office. Shorter haul business flights (Chicago, Atlanta) are infrequent. JFK is the airport of choice for start-ups and airlines with questionable profitability, as gate space is much more available than at LGA. JFK is also the airport of choice for direct service to the world's more exotic locations (Air Uzbekistan, Iceland Air, Air Afrique).
It's because so few of JFK's passengers are actually coming from Manhattan that I consider the need for a "one-seat" ride to Manhattan to be overestimated.
CG
Overall, you correctly classified the airports.
Please note the following however:
1) Deck weights at La Guardia, as well as runway length, preclude most larger jets from using the airport. I've flown on L-1011 aircraft from LGA, it's true, but not ones with full fuel loads going cross-country. Thus, Newark and JFK are the two airports where long-distance flights are possible
2) Any measure which cuts down on travel time to an airport can help change the market to it. As an extreme hypothetical example, if one built a 10-lane superhighway with a 90mph speed limit from Paramus NJ to JFK and guaranteed everyone a parking space in 3 minutes or less(perish the thought!), and the other choice was a clogged Pulaski Skyway at 25 mph to EWR, you would see demand (and new flights) shifting to JFK.
3) Newark (EWR) does offer a good number of cheap flights; I have endured the LIRR-PATH-#62 bus routine (and reverse) to use Newark when an air ticket from EWR cost $400 less than one from JFK or LGA.
3) Newark (EWR) does offer a good number of cheap flights; I have endured the LIRR-PATH-#62 bus routine (and reverse) to use Newark when an air ticket from EWR cost $400 less than one from JFK or LGA.
I've also made the trip all the way to JFK (NJT to NYP, A to Howard Beach, shuttle to the terminal) for the same reason - Delta non-stop round-trip to Las Vegas for $209 vs. Continental from Newark at $688. Had I not been using miles on my trip to Arizona last month I would also have gone from JFK, although the cost difference on that trip would have only been about $70.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It pays to know your airlines, doesn't it? Delta and JetBlue from JFK, Continental from Newark; file those away in the memory banks...
[re classification of airports]
While you are correct that LaGuardia gets far more short-distance business travel than Kennedy, it's possible that will change. LaGuardia is the most delay-prone airport in the United States and is getting little if any capital investment. Kennedy has many fewer delays and is in the middle of a $9 billion capital program. I would not be at all surprised to see more and more of the short-distance business shift to Kennedy.
I agree that there's a good chance that LGA will see some loss of market share (although the outrageous delays have been going on for about 2 years now).
In the short term, I think there will be some short-term shift will go to Newark. Continental flies just about everywhere from EWR, has plenty of empty seats and the soon to be opened EWR rail station puts the terminals only about 30 minutes from Penn Station. Newark isn't a long-term solution, though -- unless they want to build another terminal and another runway.
The delays at LGA are overwhelmingly a result of volume. JFK is a long-term solution because you can fly larger planes in there. At the end of each business day, American sends a plane into LGA from Dallas every half-hour for about 3 hours. Same goes for Delta from Atlanta. United and American both run hourly or less from Chicago. Then you've got the Boston and Washington shuttles. Larger planes into JFK could reduce the number of take-offs and landings in the New York metro area considerably. Problem is, all of the airlines have invested in smaller planes (150-200 passengers) in no small part because of LGA's size restriction. I believe Delta doesn't own a single 747.
I'm looking forward to the NJT station at EWR, but am resigned to lots of delays and many unplanned nights in airport hotels over the next few years. If I lived out your way, I'd do as much travel as possible out of BWI and then just fly Southwest into Islip.
CG
Thank you for your response.
You are right. That is a difference between two-seat rides.
ATL's two-seat ride will be superior because the layout of the airport is different than JFK. I don't know if you've been to JFK, but the airport consists of a number of widely scattered terminals each with their own check in and gates. The teriminals do not appear to be within walking distance of one another. Once you're in the terminal, though, everything is usually within walking distance.
So one of the problems with a direct subway connection is the question of where do you connect the subway to? There isn't one terminal (like at Atlanta), there's something like nine. Otherwise, as I argued in my post, you need a transit system designed specifically for the inter-terminal connections and runs to points where you can connect the subway. AirTrain has to work with JFK's layout.
I have another question for you:
While lifting out of Atlanta in a LaGuardia bound Delta 757(eventually delayed coming into New York 1 hour, 15 minutes in perfect weather, I might add), I noticed that there appear to be two tail tracks extending from the MARTA airport station, making a slight curve, and then terminating. There was a cross-over, and a slight curve to them. Having only a few seconds to observe all this, I could be greatly mistaken, but it appeared that the tail tracks just ended (mid air?). I'm curious as to what this is.
Thanks,
MATT-2AV
I haven't been to JFK, but I've seen arial views of it, and it looks disorganized. There's too much duplication of services, unlike a centrally layed out design like ATL.
The two tail tracks currently serve no purpose other than to allow room in case a train overruns the platform. There isn't a crossover on the tail tracks, the crossover is on the north end of the station. You're right that the tracks curve and end in midair. It's pretty cool to see. I've been wanting to get a picture of this for a while, but haven't got around to it. It's designed like this because the two southern runways are straight ahead, and if the line is to be extended, they would have to go around them. If fact, I've seen proposal that will be extended to a new terminal within 10 years. Here's are two maps, figure 6.2 and figure 6.3 of what it will look like (big files).
I'm afraid I must disagree.
First, a subway is designed to serve a specific purpose: rapid transit. The design of the doors, seats, and interior are all dictated by the needs of rapid transit. JFK Airport does not need heavy rapid transit. It needs a means of connecting passengers with other locations inside and adjacent to JFK. To illustrate my point, I will use the example of luggage. Connecting passengers have luggage. Is an R-68 the best place for your luggage? The doors are narrow, and there aren't any luggage racks. And why is that? Because the R-68 was designed for a very different purpose. How many morning commuters are schlepping suitcases on a downtown A train out of 207th Street? Not very many, and that is why there are no luggage racks. Should passengers needing to catch a flight in another terminal be forced to cram all their belongings through the doors of an R-68? Now the argument can be made that separate Airtrain cars could run from Manhattan to JFK on a connecting subway line. But what good are these cars to morning commuters, or the MTA for that matter? Due to added amenities, an Airtrain car may have a higher maintenance requirement. The Airtrain interior can be designed much less resistant to vandalism and more comfortable to passengers without the MTA having to lose sleep over it.
There are two purposes of an airport transportation system: to circulate airport passengers within the airport and to bring airport passengers between the airport and the rest of the region.
Your argument is that current subway cars are poorly suited for the first purpose. I agree. However, there's no reason all service in the airport must connect to the rest of the world. I'd suggest that some trains be made up of subway cars and continue out of the airport along the A while others be made up of dedicated airport cars and not leave the airport. (This would also be the simplest way of handling fare collection.) Yes, that means airport passengers on the A train would be stuck without luggage racks and the like -- but they're already stuck without luggage racks on the ride to Howard Beach or Jamaica, and I assure you that few if any would prefer a forced transfer to a different train with luggage racks over a direct ride into the airport on a less-than-perfect train. Ideally, airport subway trains (i.e., the ones that connect into the rest of the subway) would be a compromise of sorts, with low-key airport amenities that don't get much in the way of the average subway commuter -- say, overhead luggage racks above the seats or designated luggage stowage space below the seats.
My basic point here is that a single set of tracks can serve two different services, one intra-airport and one as part of the subway system.
Second, the predicted passenger load of a given Airtrain would be very different. Is the best use for an eight-car consists of R-68s to go from terminal to terminal at JFK? How many people can an R-68 hold? You could argue that the passengers would have plenty of room for their luggage on the unused seats, but this is nothing more than trying to turn a Philips head screw with a flat head screwdriver.
This problem is not unique to service to JFK. Nearly every line runs emptier approaching its terminal than along the middle of the line. Look at the current south termini of the A: if anything, a JFK branch would see more passengers.
One possible solution (if this can even be considered a problem) is to develop rapid coupling and decoupling techniques. Half-length trains could then run to the terminals while full-length trains cover the busier portions of the line. This could be used on any branching line, not just the A.
Third, let us assume a direct connection to the airport is made from the A train with a new branch line. That is the argument that I have heard most often. I believe that scheduling complexities would lead to inconvenient service that outweighs the lack of a one-seat ride. As Ron mentioned, the MTA is opposed to excessive branching of lines for a reason. The JFK-bound A trains would have to share the rails with all the other queens-bound A trains. Let us assume for the sake of argument that there is capacity for these added A trains. Now, instead of being able to take any Rockaway A train and transferring to Airtrain, you have to take a JFK-bound A train. These JFK-bound A trains have to be scheduled in between all the other queens-bound A trains. What would the headway of JFK-bound A trains be? Would this lead to less frequent service?
I've never heard of this opposition by the MTA except through Ron. See my detailed response to him, in a different thread. In brief, there are three easy ways to get around this "problem": (a) run the C to Lefferts, as has been proposed by many here for years, or even abandon the branch (it's only three stops!) and substitute bus service -- either way eliminating one of the A's branches; (b) reinstitute round-robin H service to the Rockaways and have the A alternate between Lefferts and JFK instead of Lefferts and Far Rockaway; (c) split trains, as I describe above, at Rockaway Blvd.
Nothing's set in stone. The TA tries (a) and it doesn't work, for whatever reason? Then try (b) or (c). The AirTrain, OTOH, had better work, or else a lot of money was just flushed down the toilet. I think that's the greatest objection to AirTrain -- not that it won't work, but that it's an awfully expensive experiment when a cheaper job would have been at least as likely to be effective.
Finally, there is the argument that other airports have direct connection to rapid transit. I argue that it is not appropriate to compare many of these other airports to JFK. It's like comparing the Boston T to the New York City subway. Guests of mine from Boston couldn't understand how it took so long to get from the Upper East Side to downtown on a late night 4. "But the red line only makes 4 stops." they would say. I tried to explain to them that there is just a difference in scale. JFK is on a different scale than many other airports. It is very spread out due to its shear size (and poor planning), and really has two needs: 1) a connection to rapid transit, and 2) a means of providing intra-airport connections.
Close but not quite. It doesn't need a connection to rapid transit -- it needs to be incorporated into the existing rapid transit system, just like nearly every other major destination in NYC is incorporated into the existing rapid transit system. AirTrain does a poor job of that. Sure, the airport circulation part will be just fine, but that could have been done without the expensive lines to Jamaica and Howard Beach.
And the $5.00 fare is just plain insulting. I can ride for $1.50 from 207th Street in Washington Heights all the way to Howard Beach without changing trains, but for the short hop from there into the airport I'm expected to change trains and pay an additional $5.00?! The argument that airline passengers are already paying a lot for their tickets doesn't fly (pardon the pun); we don't tack a surcharge onto rides to Lincoln Center or Yankee Stadium even though tickets there also cost a lot. JFK is in NYC and deserves to be a part of the NYC fare structure -- which is, at this time, a simple $1.50 to anywhere in the system.
One closing point: Unlike some others here, I'm not in favor of a direct connection to Penn Station, which would (a) be expensive and (b) not be integrated into the subway system (i.e., it would directly serve only one point in Manhattan and have transfers to only a few subway lines rather than serving 16 points in Manhattan and have direct transfers to every line in the system except the Franklin shuttle, the midday M, and various weekend and overnight shuttles). A direct high-speed link to Penn would be useful for some, and perhaps it could be pursued at a later date as a premium service, but it's not the basic subway service that JFK needs right now.
A couple of the MTA's various objections to using their own ROW into JFK are well-elucidated over the years; if you don't want to hear them only from me feel free to contact MTA directly, and then ask the PA what they understand about it. That should settle your objection about only hearing the ROW problem from me. As I said - i's MTA's objection, not mine. I personally don't mind extending the A track into JFK.
The "A" connection alone is inadequate, however, because the "A" is not easily accessible from central and western Queens, nor from Long Island. A connection to a major railroad terminal and to more than one subway line is essential for cutting transportation time to JFK from multiple origins. So the "A" connection is good, but not sufficient by itself for the stated purpose. So comparing the "A" train alone to AirTrain is invalid.
"I think that's the greatest objection to AirTrain -- not
that it won't work, but that it's an awfully expensive experiment when a cheaper job would have been at least as likely to be
effective."
You state a lot of assertions without providing any evidence to back you up. Since I don't believe in that, let me show you some of mine: The MTA currently builds track costing from $350 million per mile (if you believe me, spec. regarding the 63rd St Connector rebuild project) to $1 billion per mile (if you believe others) for subway and will need over $600 million to build the least expensive extension possible to La Guardia. The Port Authority, on the other hand, is building AirTrain at $1.5 billion/8 total miles = approx. $200 million per mile. And the "A" extension would still need ADA-compliant stations at each terminal for a circulator. So what costs exactly are you trying to save?
"Sure, the airport circulation part will be just fine, but that could have been done without the expensive lines to Jamaica and Howard Beach."
Only if you want to stay at the airport and not travel into the city or to Long Island.
"And the $5.00 fare is just plain insulting. I can ride for $1.50 from 207th Street in Washington Heights all the way to Howard
Beach without changing trains, but for the short hop from there into the airport I'm expected to change trains and pay an
additional $5.00?!"
By that logic, the Long Island Railroad should be $1.50 within the city limits too - but it isn't. That hasn't hurt ridership any. I guess not too many people are insulted.
Fares are easy to change. The PA will be able to figure out soon enough if people are avoiding AirTrain due to the fare (will it really be $5? Do we know that for a fact?) and do something about it.
The "A" connection alone is inadequate, however, because the "A" is not easily accessible from central and western Queens, nor from Long Island. A connection to a major railroad terminal and to more than one subway line is essential for cutting transportation time to JFK from multiple origins. So the "A" connection is good, but not sufficient by itself for the stated purpose. So comparing the "A" train alone to AirTrain is invalid.
I'm confused. The A directly serves southeastern Queens, central and downtown Brooklyn, lower and midtown Manhattan, Harlem, and Washington Heights. The AirTrain directly serves southeastern and central Queens -- and that's it. I strongly suspect the A train directly serves a somewhat greater population than the AirTrain.
With one connection, the A train serves every nook and cranny of the subway system (with the few exceptions I pointed out earlier -- nothing more than a few shuttles that are two transfers away) as well as every LIRR train that runs from Penn Station and from Brooklyn. Many of these transfers -- to every northbound IND line except the V and the Grand Street shuttle (I'm working with the new designations, obviously) -- involve no stairs, elevators, or escalators. With one inconvenient transfer, the AirTrain serves points on the A/E/J/Z lines and the LIRR from Jamaica. The rest of the city is yet a third transfer away.
It looks to me like only those on Long Island and in eastern Queens benefit from the AirTrain over the A connection. Don't we pander to the suburbanites enough already? How many suburbanites do you expect to take public transit to the airport, anyway? I suspect the JFK Flyer bus and similar bus routes provide (or could provide) adequate service.
You state a lot of assertions without providing any evidence to back you up. Since I don't believe in that, let me show you some of mine: The MTA currently builds track costing from $350 million per mile (if you believe me, spec. regarding the 63rd St Connector rebuild project) to $1 billion per mile (if you believe others) for subway and will need over $600 million to build the least expensive extension possible to La Guardia. The Port Authority, on the other hand, is building AirTrain at $1.5 billion/8 total miles = approx. $200 million per mile. And the "A" extension would still need ADA-compliant stations at each terminal for a circulator. So what costs exactly are you trying to save?
Woah, hold it. Is the PA's money somehow worth more than the MTA's? If not, then the only reason the MTA pays more per mile than the PA is that the MTA's projects are inherently more expensive -- in particular, building a short connection between two in-use underground lines is a lot more expensive per mile than building a new elevated route that doesn't connect to anything. But you knew that.
By that logic, the Long Island Railroad should be $1.50 within the city limits too - but it isn't. That hasn't hurt ridership any. I guess not too many people are insulted.
By and large, the LIRR within the city provides premium service where the subway already provides basic service. In a few places, it provides the only service there is. Ideally, that should be corrected, although my understanding is that many of the residents explicitly don't want subway service. There are only a few major destinations in the city that aren't connected to the subway -- the airports and the Javits Center come to mind. That needs to be fixed ASAP.
Fares are easy to change. The PA will be able to figure out soon enough if people are avoiding AirTrain due to the fare (will it really be $5? Do we know that for a fact?) and do something about it.
Will the PA reduce the fare to $0 for riders arriving by subway? I doubt it -- that would cut into the PA's parking revenue. Or did you not notice the PA's conflict of interest here?
"It looks to me like only those on Long Island and in eastern Queens benefit from the AirTrain over the A connection."
Really? Maybe we need to review a little geography here. You're saying that people on the east side of Manhattan, in Long Island City, Flushing, Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and Jamaica Estates all have better access to the "A" train and will take that over the "E" train to get to an airport circulator. The last time I checked a New York City map, that wasn't the case. Or do you expect them to ride the E train westbound for 45 minutes to an hour to reach the "A" train?
"Woah, hold it. Is the PA's money somehow worth more than the MTA's? If not, then the only reason the MTA pays more per
mile than the PA is that the MTA's projects are inherently more expensive -- "
The point you're missing is that PA money is contributed by daily users at the airport. The money is already in the fund. MTA money for this would be borrowed money, which has to be paid back.
"in particular, building a short connection between
two in-use underground lines is a lot more expensive per mile than building a new elevated route that doesn't connect to
anything. But you knew that."
No I don't know that - and neither do you. Again, you're posting like a politician - never let fact interfere with your point of view. The proposal to extend an elevated train from the "N" terminal to LGA will cost at least $650 million for a two mile and change extension. $300 million per mile, vs. the PA achieving $200 million per mile, and with vehicles optimized for airport use. But you knew that...
"Don't we pander to the suburbanites enough already? How many suburbanites do you expect to take public transit to the airport,
anyway? I suspect the JFK Flyer bus and similar bus routes provide (or could provide) adequate service."
As far as "pandering" goes, the more suburbanites we can get into mass transit, the cleaner our air will be. Not all suburbanites want the parking hassles at JFK, and not all suburbanites are wealthy. Do you think everybody in Manhattan lives in a penthouse on Park Avenue? If you want to improve mass transit, buses alone don't cut it. But you knew that, too...
Is THIS thread still going on...
I'll say it again, it isn't what we wanted, but let the Port Authority build what they promised when they imposed the PFC, and they I'll be satisfied with it. If they had raised the PATH fare and tolls when the MTA was forced to raise its fares and tolls during the recession, they could have built it twice over, with all the money the airports make.
Is Airtrain worthwhile? Then extend it past Jamaica to Flushing (where those other suburbanites on the Port Washington Line could get it), to LaGuardia, and on to Long Island City, with a stop at Queens Plaza and at the proposed LIRR Sunnyside Station. Charge the same as the PATH and the subway. Heck, in that case it might even have value for people in Bayside!
Really? Maybe we need to review a little geography here. You're saying that people on the east side of Manhattan, in Long Island City, Flushing, Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and Jamaica Estates all have better access to the "A" train and will take that over the "E" train to get to an airport circulator. The last time I checked a New York City map, that wasn't the case. Or do you expect them to ride the E train westbound for 45 minutes to an hour to reach the "A" train?
Try again. This time count transfers.
A zero-transfer ride on my system gets me to each and every A stop. A zero-transfer ride on the PA's system gets me to Jamaica and Howard Beach, and that's it. My system wins here.
A one-transfer ride on my system gets me to essentially anywhere on the subway or LIRR (or NJT or PATH). A one-transfer ride on the PA's system gets me to points served by three (overlapping) subway lines as well as the LIRR. My system wins here, too.
Perhaps direct service via the E would be better than direct service via the A. I'm not convinced; if nothing else, crowding on the E is worse than on the A and there isn't much point giving people a way to get to the airport if they can't fit on it. But I'd be happy if any subway line had direct service to the airport.
The point you're missing is that PA money is contributed by daily users at the airport. The money is already in the fund. MTA money for this would be borrowed money, which has to be paid back.
Have I mentioned yet that I hate the politics involved with this line? Of course, you're right. (I haven't been criticizing the PA, per se, only the system the PA is building. My criticism lies equally on those who made it impossible for something better to be built.)
No I don't know that - and neither do you. Again, you're posting like a politician - never let fact interfere with your point of view. The proposal to extend an elevated train from the "N" terminal to LGA will cost at least $650 million for a two mile and change extension. $300 million per mile, vs. the PA achieving $200 million per mile, and with vehicles optimized for airport use. But you knew that...
Who mentioned an extension to the N? I was comparing the cost of building the two-branched AirTrain to the cost of building only one of the two branches, to Howard Beach, and including a track connection instead of a station. How could it possibly be more expensive to build a line from JFK to Howard Beach than to build one line from JFK to Howard Beach and another to Jamaica? I've heard of bulk discounts but this is ridiculous.
As far as "pandering" goes, the more suburbanites we can get into mass transit, the cleaner our air will be. Not all suburbanites want the parking hassles at JFK, and not all suburbanites are wealthy. Do you think everybody in Manhattan lives in a penthouse on Park Avenue? If you want to improve mass transit, buses alone don't cut it. But you knew that, too...
Right now there is a great need for subway service to JFK. There is a much lesser need, if there is any at all, for LIRR service to JFK. Doesn't it make sense to place priority on the greater need?
I have no idea what your "penthouse on Park Avenue" bit is about.
Sometimes buses fit a need. Sometimes they don't. To build an unnecessary train line as a half-hearted attempt to encourage suburbanites not to drive to the airport is just stupid. (Of course it's only half-hearted. The PA makes a killing on those parking lots.)
"Try again. This time count transfers."
Do we really know how important a transfer is? On the con side, it adds a little time (but not trouble, if ADA-compliant) to the travel. But while a zero-transfer policy helps ridership, the reverse is not proven true: I haven't seen any evidence that it deters ridership, either. The "G" cutback may be the first experiment - but the transfers there are, physically, quite challenging. So you're putting a lot of emphasis on a measure which is not proven to be important.
"A zero-transfer ride on my system gets me to each and every A stop. A zero-transfer ride on the PA's system gets me to
Jamaica and Howard Beach, and that's it. My system wins here."
The "A" train takes over an hour, when there are no delays, to get to and from Manhattan to JFK - and current frequency on the Rockaway Branch leaves much to be desired. Further, the "A" is largely non-compliant with ADA. That means that you're going to deal with multiple staircases no matter where you end up going. That's a real impediment to using the subway for airport transit.
So a reasonable response to that is to provide quick rides to major destinations. AirTrain takes you not only to the "A" train, but to Jamaica, which is fully ADA-compliant, connects to mostly ADA-compliant commuter rail stations (including Penn), and provides access to a large proportion of Queens and Manhattan not served by the "A" train. It also provides access to more stations which are now, or are currently being rebuilt to ADA compliance - for example, 74th St Broadway, 61rst St Woodside (JFK passengers get here by LIRR), Main St-Flushing on the "7."
"A one-transfer ride on my system gets me to essentially anywhere on the subway or LIRR (or NJT or PATH)."
After hours of travel. Moreover, since most subway transfers are not ADA-compliant, they're difficult to use. So this makes the "transfer advantage" nearly worthless for a lot of people.
I'm not anti-A train. The "A" train's great - some Subtalkers think it's the best line in the system. But it can't do everything.
"Right now there is a great need for subway service to JFK. There is a much lesser need, if there is any at all, for LIRR service
to JFK."
Try not to assert what you have no evidence to support. In fact, since a lot of JFK-bound demand comes from both LI and Manhattan, that makes the LIRR the logical carrier (there is no subway east of Jamaica Estates, after all) - hence all the screaming and yelling about the LIRR Rockaway Branch. I regret that that option is impractical and will remain so for at least a decade, but that probably would have been a great way to get to the airport.
"To build an unnecessary train line as a half-hearted attempt to encourage
suburbanites not to drive to the airport is just stupid."
And if we dismantle the LIRR, which loses money, we could save millions of taxpayer dollars every year, which cater to the same suburbanites. By your logic, the N21 bus should be all that anybody needs to get onto the subway. Or they can drive to Jamaica Center. Why operate an expensive set of trains if we don't have to?
Do we really know how important a transfer is? On the con side, it adds a little time (but not trouble, if ADA-compliant) to the travel. But while a zero-transfer policy helps ridership, the reverse is not proven true: I haven't seen any evidence that it deters ridership, either.
Then you have the LIRR situation, where most riders flatly refuse to change trains at Jamaica no matter what.
"Then you have the LIRR situation, where most riders flatly refuse to change trains at Jamaica no matter what."
Not a relevant argument, since no one transfers if they don't have to. For example, if you're coming from Manhattan, you have to change trains to reach any stop on the Hempstead branch; if you're coming from Brooklyn, you have to change trains to use any line other than the Hempstead branch. And the corresponding transfers for commuting into the city. Removing that need for transfer would make riders happier, it's true (at the cost of making you wait for the right train), but there's no evidence that it reduces ridership.
The A directly serves southeastern Queens
Define "southeastern" Queens. It serves Far Rockaway, but the Rockaways are cut off from the rest of Queens, so much that they may as well be another borough. Certainly the A does nothing for Laurelton, Rosedale, Cambria Heights, Springfield Gardens, St. Albans, or anything arround there. If you mean Howard Beach or Ozone Park, those are decidedly southwestern Queens.
By and large, the LIRR within the city provides premium service where the subway already provides basic service. In a few places, it provides the only service there is. Ideally, that should be corrected,
although my understanding is that many of the residents explicitly don't want subway service
My experience living in Oakland Gardens (Bayside) is that this is simply not true. Most people I talk to in Eastern Queens would be thrilled to have subway service. The LIRR is too expensive, and not really worth it.
:-) Andrew
Define "southeastern" Queens. It serves Far Rockaway, but the Rockaways are cut off from the rest of Queens, so much that they may as well be another borough. Certainly the A does nothing for Laurelton, Rosedale, Cambria Heights, Springfield Gardens, St. Albans, or anything arround there. If you mean Howard Beach or Ozone Park, those are decidedly southwestern Queens.
Just seeing if anyone was reading.
(Yes, you're right. Not that it changes my point -- the A directly serves many parts of the city while the AirTrain directly serves exactly two points.)
My experience living in Oakland Gardens (Bayside) is that this is simply not true. Most people I talk to in Eastern Queens would be thrilled to have subway service. The LIRR is too expensive, and not really worth it.
As I said, the subway should be extended there as well. An extension to JFK has higher priority simply because more people go to JFK than to any single point in eastern Queens.
There are two purposes of an airport transportation system: to circulate airport passengers within the airport and to bring airport passengers between the airport and the rest of the region
I disagree. An airport transportation system is disigned to cirulate people within an airport and that's it. I've been to dozens of airports around the country and haven't seen one that operates beyond that. If you've been to SFO (San Fran) recently, you'll know that they are constructing an airport transportation system that connects to BART, but it's the city that is extending BART to the airport. It's the city's job to provide the connection from the airport to the rest of the city. Saying that, I could say that AirTrain is doing more than it should by providing a connection to the subway way outside of the airport grounds.
I could say that AirTrain is doing more than it should by providing a connection to the subway way outside of the airport grounds.
The Howard Beach subway station is at the edge of the airport grounds. It is a significant distance from the terminals, however, as it abuts the far edge of the long-term parking lot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"It's the city's job to provide the connection from the airport to the rest of the city. Saying that, I could say that
AirTrain is doing more than it should by providing a connection to the subway way outside of the airport grounds. "
That's a distinction worthy only of rules lawyers. The airlines at JFK used that in a bogus campaign designed to funnel PFT money into their own pockets. The PA used the money to connect the terminals together and to provide a link to city-bound mass transit. Now, you and Dave might be have been happier if the PA had paid for an extension of the subway into the airport, but that's a question of "how" not "who pays."
Look at it this way: AirTrain's $1.5 billion cost didn't eat into MTA's Capital budget, and by extension, the taxpayers' pockets. Would you really have wanted it to?
Sorry if my terminology was confusing. Let me try again.
An airport needs to be connected internally as well as connected to the region that contains it. JFK is currently lacking in both respects. The PA's AirTrain is an attempt to correct both. Unfortunately it's doing a particularly poor job in the latter.
I don't care who builds the connection. (It seems to me that the TA should build it, both because that's the sort of thing the TA builds and because it should be integrated into the TA's subway system. But I'd be happy if anyone at all built it.) It needs to be built.
Maybe I shouldn't complain. After all, the subway connections are just extras. Unfortunately, they're extras that cost money -- money ($5 each way is the number I've heard) that I'll have to pay each time I go to the airport. Thanks, but instead of paying $5 I'd rather take the free bus -- which is conveniently being eliminated as an option.
Interestingly enough, Jamaica station is actually closer to the airport terminals than the Howard Beach station is (based on info from the AirTrain web site). You'd never know this by timing a car trip up the Van Wyck, though.
CG
Interesting point. It implies that AirTrain's Jamaica leg will be about as quick a way to get to a train as the Howard Beach leg would be. And LIRR service is frequent enough to Manhattan from there that city-bound travellers wouldn't even have to bother with a schedule.
"It implies that AirTrain's Jamaica leg will be about as quick a way to get to a train as the Howard Beach leg would be. And LIRR service is frequent enough to Manhattan from there that city-bound travellers wouldn't even have to bother with a schedule."
They're estimating 8 minutes from Terminal 9 to Jamaica station.
Very interesting (and counterintuitive).
Perhaps through E (or J) service would be preferable to through A service. (See my comments to Ron elsewhere in this thread.) My basic point remains the same, though.
[Perhaps through E (or J) service would be preferable to through A service. ]
E - lot of times so overcrowded that I can't see anyone with luggage even thinking of taking it.
J - goes slowly to very few points of interest as far as JFK customers go.
Arti
That's exactly why I'm skeptical.
It seems that your whole arguments rests on the value (or impediment posed) by transfers.
If you can show that an ADA-compliant transfer discourages the use of a rail system, regardless of comparative travel time, then you have the basis of a logical objection. Now, I will agree that a direct connection to a desired destination is better than a transfer. But the reverse is not automatically true.
Your solution forces the use of the subway only on initial journey legs, a largely non-compliant system (about 40-45 stations out of 468 will be ADA-compliant in the 2001-02 time period) and denies access to the LIRR, a compliant system which serves Manhattan, Queens and suburbs. This is far more critical an issue (with luggage) than whether or not there is, or isn't, a transfer.
I'm not sure what there is to show. It's obvious to me. If it's not obvious to you, I'm afraid we'll just have to disagree. You've never walked a few blocks further to avoid a transfer later on? Are there no N/R passengers who stay put to go downtown rather than transfer to the faster 4/5? Are there no E passengers who stay aboard from Queens to West 4th even though the F takes a shortcut and the expresses skip a few stops? Why does anyone stay on a local past two express stops? Surely transferring to the express and back would be faster.
There is one situation in which New Yorkers have no aversion to transferring, but that's a special case. I'm speaking of the across-the-platform transfer to a local or express that's already in the station. In this case, there's minimal walking and there's a guarantee of no wait time for the new train since it's already there. Even in this case, many don't bother.
And here I'm talking about the average subway rider, with no luggage.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up ADA compliance. Aren't 40 compliant stations out of 468 better than two compliant stations out of two? The subway takes far more JFK passengers to their destinations than the LIRR, and the AirTrain itself (once again) only goes to two points.
Indeed, LIRR serves Manhattan. Contrary to popular belief among some, Penn Station is not in walking distance of the entire borough. That means that LIRR passengers will have to ride the (gasp) subway to reach their actual destinations. Now, only two trunk lines serve Penn Station -- everyone else will have to transfer (and probably not at an ADA-compliant transfer point). How many people do you really think would prefer to transfer three times and pay three fares instead of transferring once and paying one fare? Even if it's a few minutes faster? (With all those transfers, it certainly won't be more than a few minutes faster.)
When AirTrain opens, I propose we have a race. We pick some point at random in Manhattan. You take the subway to LIRR to AirTrain; I take the subway straight to Howard Beach and the AirTrain from there, and deduct the time spent transferring at HB (since it would have been eliminated in my system). Never mind the convenience -- we both agree that I win there. Never mind the price to the rider -- we both agree that I win there. What about the time?
"I'm not sure why you keep bringing up ADA compliance. Aren't 40 compliant stations out of 468 better than two compliant
stations out of two? The subway takes far more JFK passengers to their destinations than the LIRR, and the AirTrain itself
(once again) only goes to two points."
But those two points give passengers access to ADA stations and transfers that the "A" train does not serve. Yes, there is a transfer involved. It isn't nearly as important as you make it out to be - in fact, I predict it will be seen, retrospectively as a red herring.
"Indeed, LIRR serves Manhattan. Contrary to popular belief among some, Penn Station is not in walking distance of the entire
borough."
It doesn't have to be. The fact that it is a major business travel destination, and close to most downtown locations, is enough to make it a good place to hook up to Airport service. And when LIRR is plugged into Grand Central Terminal, midtown will be served equally well.
"I'm not sure what there is to show. It's obvious to me. If it's not obvious to you, I'm afraid we'll just have to disagree. You've
never walked a few blocks further to avoid a transfer later on? Are there no N/R passengers who stay put to go downtown
rather than transfer to the faster 4/5? Are there no E passengers who stay aboard from Queens to West 4th even though the F
takes a shortcut and the expresses skip a few stops? Why does anyone stay on a local past two express stops? Surely
transferring to the express and back would be faster."
If you have a choice, you might want to stay put. But having to transfer, if it's done comfortably enough, is not an impediment to riding. ook at what MARTA has accomplished at Hartsfield Airport. You have to transfer to the circulator. Having ridden that system (I lived in Atlanta for part of 1998), I can tell you first hand there were plenty of riders (and this in a city with only two subway lines!)
That's why, to me, the only "obvious" thing about the objections to transfers is how nonsensical it is.
My God Ron, you go on and on, taking on the entire board! With all this passion, I'm now prepared to nominate you to the Port Authority Board.
As an NJ rep.
Hey, you're the second person who's said that!
It would be a thrill and a half, regardless of which state!
Can I serve from PA?
The race from Manhattan to JFK is irrelevant, because Manhattan is irrelevant in this case. Look at the people who use JFK:
Employees -- unlikely to live in Manhattan
Tourists -- clearly headed to Manhattan
Vacationers -- only coming through Manhattan if they live there. And even then, there's a good chance they'll use Newark (I did when I lived in Manhattan). By sheer numbers (7-8 million people in Brooklyn/Queens/Nassau/Suffolk to less than 2 in Manhattan -- before adjusting for a Newark split) the focus for these passengers should not be Manhattan
NY based Business Travelers -- as I've noted elsewhere, business travellers using JFK are coming from home, which, based on the above is more than likely not in Manhattan.
Business Travelers based elsewhere -- clearly going to Manhattan in most cases. Usually to a hotel first. Not really an issue for this discussion, as they aren't going to ride the subway.
If you want to have a race that's meaningful for a JFK based traveller, pick a spot in Queens or Brooklyn and go from there. From Brooklyn, one can already do the math. You simply deduct the transfer time at Howard Beach, but also add in about 10 minutes due to the branching effect on the A train (currently 6 TPH split on two branches, under your proposal three branches brings waiting time for a train to a particular branch from 20 to 30 minutes).
From the piece of Queens served by the A, you have the same as Brooklyn. From the Rockaways, your route is a clear loser -- these people have to backtrack their way into the airport and encounter a dificult transfer (but enough about the 5 people who live in the Rockaways).
From the rest of Queens, I suspect that AirTrain wins hands down.
CG
"Business Travelers based elsewhere -- clearly going to Manhattan in most cases. Usually to a hotel first. Not really an issue for this discussion, as they aren't going to ride the subway."
On what is this presumption based?! "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
New York traffic and New York cabbies are infamous (whether that latter reputation is deserved or not I will not dare touch) and just because people don't have experience riding trains at home doesn't mean they won't in New York to avoid the traffic and the taxis. And it's more than a bit NYC-centric to presume business people simply don't ride transit in their own cities. Beyond travelers from transit-oriented cities like Chicago or London or Tokyo, there must be some significant number of white-collar workers who use rail transit in cities such as Dallas, Denver, Saint Louis, San Diego and such, or the park&ride lots of these city's light rail lines wouldn't be so full as is repeatedly complained in the newspapers of those cities.
From my personal experience living in Chicago and traveling to Washington frequently, I see plenty of business travelers riding the CTA and Metro subways, and the MARC and Amtrak trains, to and from the airports. Myself included.
There are plenty of reasons for business travelers to ride a convenient airport rail link:
1) They tend to have a lot less luggage than a vacation traveler.
2) They tend to be heading downtown.
3) Time is money, and nobody relishes being stuck an hour or more in a cab in the molasses-like traffic that dominates downtown-bound highways and especially highways connecting downtown to the airport.
4) Some companies DON'T have a bottomless travel budget, and don't automatically reimburse for cab rides when they know rail transit is convenient.
I've bumped into too many people pulling huge steamer-trunk sized rolling bags behind them on the subway (and I'm counting people wearing suits and business casual, not airline uniforms) to think that business travelers won't use an airport subway. :^)
Thanks John - it's nice to see somebody with a broad perspective. Now if we can only get elevators installed in more stations...
There are plenty of reasons for business travelers to ride a convenient airport rail link:
1) They tend to have a lot less luggage than a vacation traveler.
2) They tend to be heading downtown.
3) Time is money, and nobody relishes being stuck an hour or more in a cab in the molasses-like traffic that dominates downtown-bound highways and especially highways connecting downtown to the airport.
4) Some companies DON'T have a bottomless travel budget, and don't automatically reimburse for cab rides when they know rail transit is convenient.
One more:
5) They're unlikely to have people meeting them at the airport, or seeing them off.
As a result, the price advantage that taxis might offer for larger parties is not an issue.
"On what is this presumption based?! "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." "
I am a frequent business traveler. When I go to Chicago or Washington, I take the subway. When I go to Atlanta on business, I rent a car -- it seems that no business in Atlanta is ever conducted within 5 miles of a MARTA station (that's a joke, before anyone goes crazy with statistics).
The presumption is based on 12 years in business, travelling and hosting business travelers for most of the last 6.
I have about 75-100 clients or prospective clients visit me each year from all over the country. In addition, I get a fair number of visitors from our home office in Germany and other offices around the world. Not once have I had one ask me how they could get from the airport to the city by public transit. I've had some occasions where they've asked me how to get to their next appointment on the subway, and I even physically took a client to his hotel on the subway at rush hour (he loved it and told me he was going to call his wife and tell her about it as soon as he checked in). Overwhelmingly, though, they prefer cabs and car services.
Admittedly, I work in an industry that tends to (over)pamper it's people. Still, even my clients who are on a tight budget will cab it to and from the airport -- particularly JFK.
I guess it wasn't clear from my post, but I was trying to make a reference specifically to arriving business travellers at JFK. I'm of the opinion (and I believe on the record in the deep archives of SubTalk) that an N train extension to LGA makes tremendous sense and would be highly utilized. Same goes for NJT at EWR.
Arriving at JFK generally means that you've just stepped off of a four or more hour flight. It also means that you're probably not a one-night business traveler -- if you've arranged your schedule with some degree of efficiency -- so your toting a fair amount of luggage. After a flight of that length, most people aren't going to an appointment, you're going to your hotel first -- even if just to wash up for dinner. (note that very few flights land at JFK before about noon or so, just a handful of red-eyes from the west coast and some flights from Asia -- anything from Europe is coming in early afternoon at best, from Florida late morning).
If you're savvy enough to be doing business in New York (OK, I'll take my NY-centric lumps here), you're savvy enough to know that a $36 / 45 minute cab ride to the front door of your hotel is a far more efficient use of time / money / musclepower than a 90 minute Airtrain/subway or LIRR/subway/schlep to your hotel (never underestimate that 3 block walk from the subway to the hotel -- I have miserable memories of Arlington Virginia, 3 bags, 90 degrees).
(re: the notorious NYC cabbies -- the $30 flat taxi rate from JFK has greatly reduced the number of NYC cabs with Japanese businessmen riding around my neighborhood on Long Island; they've also discovered the wonders of Woodhaven Blvd. as a Van Wyck alternative.)
I'd love to gather the data, but don't know who would have it (or who would let me have it). Perhaps it's time for Ron From Bayside, David Greenberger, David Cole, me and some of the others who've been discussing this topic to death the last few days to take a SubTalk field trip out to JFK to inspect AirTrain progress and interview some cabbies about where it is that they are taking their passengers.
"If you're savvy enough to be doing business in New York (OK, I'll take my NY-centric lumps here), you're savvy enough to
know that a $36 / 45 minute cab ride to the front door of your hotel is a far more efficient use of time / money / musclepower
than a 90 minute Airtrain/subway or LIRR/subway/schlep"
The subway is a 90 minute schlep. AirTrain and LIRR will be comparable downtown to the cab ride. Putting them in the same bag misses the whole point of AirTrain - you're repeating Dave Greenberger's logic.
An appropriate comparison would be British Rail's service to Heathrow - a step better than AirTrain is some respects. Business travellers seem to like it.
as to cabbies, I have interviewed a few (after all, I can't ride AirTrain right now, can I?). Their attitude is that they will coexist happily with the train.
In their view (and I don't disagree), JFK's improvements will increase the whole pie for everyone. More total travelers using JFK = business for AirTrain, business for cabbies, business for car services (and don't forget, a few people helicopter to JFK from Manhattan). So everybody will get something, the difference being that AirTrain will put some of that increased business on electrified tracks instead of pollution-belching motor vehicles. Works for me.
I can't speak with London experience. In the specific case of business travelers arriving at JFK, they'll be able to take AirTrain and the LIRR to Penn Station, but then what. The major business hotels are at least 10 blocks away. Either way, it's still just speculation from either of us on this subject. We'll know if a few years.
The one hotel right near Penn Station (Hotel Pennsylvania -- if that's the latest version of the name) generates a good deal of business with flight crews. I wonder if they'll shift from charter busses to LIRR/AirTrain.
CG
"I can't speak with London experience. In the specific case of business travelers arriving at JFK, they'll be able to take AirTrain
and the LIRR to Penn Station, but then what. The major business hotels are at least 10 blocks away. Either way, it's still just
speculation from either of us on this subject. We'll know if a few years. "
You're on to something there. There is a move afoot, supported by Greater Jamaica Development Corp, to break ground on a hotel-conference center near Jamaica Station (so it's near the railroad, near AirTrain). The NIMBYs are fretting, but I don't think they're going to block it.
"When AirTrain opens, I propose we have a race. We pick some point at random in Manhattan. You take the subway to LIRR
to AirTrain; I take the subway straight to Howard Beach and the AirTrain from there, and deduct the time spent transferring at
HB (since it would have been eliminated in my system)."
My trip, with luggage, in the immediate future (eg right after AirTrain opens) (2003-04)works like this (utilizing ADA stations):
1) The "A" train if I'm in Brooklyn, and the Rockaways, or Atlantic Av LIRR when ADA-compliant (in progress).
2) If I'm in Manhattan in or near the thirties, I'm going to use a cab to Penn and hop on the next LIRR train to Jamaica. Otherwise I might use the Seventh Av IRT (since that side is ADA-compliant at Penn).
3) From eastern Queens, central Queens or Nassau, I can use 179th Street, Jamaica Center, Jamaica Station, Jamaica-Van Wyck, Forest Hills LIRR, New Hyde Park, Mineola, Stuart Manor, Valley Stream or other ADA stations on the Far Rockaway branch. From eastern Manhattan/Western Queens I can use 63rd St/Lex, Roosevelt Island, 21rst St-Queensbridge, Woodside (LIRR), 74th St. (All these are ADA as of today or where ADA work has begun or contracts actually assigned). Or I can use a cab or car service to get me to one of those points.
Do you really think riding two subways for about three hours (45 minutes from Kew Gardens, for example), then up to another 60-75 minutes on the A) is more convenient, OK. How much is your time worth?
Thank you very much for your response, and I certainly am one to applaud thinking outside the box. However, I have some concerns over the solutions you posed.
On one hand, you argue that AirTrain should be integrated into the subway system, while at the same time, you are concerned over the cost.
I think it is safe to presume that as expensive as AirTrain is, it will be more expensive to integrate into the subway system, and so far, nobody has offered me any valid reason to incorporate AirTrain other than the reason I mentioned: the one seat ride.
"I'd suggest that some trains be made up of subway cars and continue out of the airport along the A while others be made up of dedicated airport cars and not leave the airport. (This would also be the simplest way of handling fare collection.)"
Fair enough. But in order to accomplish this, you're basically constructing the same $1.5 billion AirTrain allignment that we have before us, but adding on the costs required to accomodate a full MTA consist. You still need the guideway out to the subway stations to male the connections. You must also add on the cost of the actual connection (presumably small). And, you must add on the cost required to extend all the AirTrain platforms to 600 plus feet (if they aren't already).
"I've never heard of this opposition by the MTA except through Ron. See my detailed response to him, in a different thread. In brief, there are three easy ways to get around this "problem": (a) run the C to Lefferts, as has been proposed by many here for years, or even abandon the branch (it's only three stops!) and substitute bus service -- either way eliminating one of the A's branches; (b) reinstitute round-robin H service to the Rockaways and have the A alternate between Lefferts and JFK instead of Lefferts and Far Rockaway; (c) split trains, as I describe above, at Rockaway Blvd."
I will respectfully beg to differ that eliminating subway service to a neighbourhood is easy.
Regardless, baisc transportation principles dictate that multiple branchings add complexity. Ron doesn't need to quote the MTA. A train enterring the system has to fit within other trains heading in the same direction, roughly analogous to cars merging on to a highway. Is it impossible? No. But all this alphabet rearrangement of the Rockaway lines is purely academic. The Manhattan-bound trackage at Howard Beach has a limitted capacity. All returning subways from the AirTrain must fit within A trains returning from the Rockaways. I believe Rockaway bound A Trains have a large headway, making this easier than on other lines in the system, but the loading charectaristics on a subway circulating in the system will be different. A couple of flights deplane, and the subway is tied up.
One side effect to your argument is that with a two-seat ride, a person could take any Rockaway bound A train to Howard beach, and pick up any AirTrain. Now, the only way to enter the system is from a JFK bound A Train. The JFK A-Train has to be scheduled within the Rockaway A Trains (and the Lefferts A). I don't know what the headway is on these existing trains, but you can only add enough JFK A Trains. What if the time between JFK A trains is longer than the time required to take any Rockaway A and transfer to the first available AirTrain?
"One possible solution (if this can even be considered a problem) is to develop rapid coupling and decoupling techniques. Half-length trains could then run to the terminals while full-length trains cover the busier portions of the line. This could be used on any branching line, not just the A."
Yes, this can be considered a problem. Is this done anywhere else in the MTA system? It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase: "you must be in the first n cars to exit." While a solution, it relies on unproven technology and non-standard practices.
"Close but not quite. It doesn't need a connection to rapid transit -- it needs to be incorporated into the existing rapid transit system, just like nearly every other major destination in NYC is incorporated into the existing rapid transit system. AirTrain does a poor job of that. Sure, the airport circulation part will be just fine, but that could have been done without the expensive lines to Jamaica and Howard Beach."
But what are you going to incorporate? JFK isn't a single destination. It's not like adding an express subway stop at 96th street on the A. It's multiple destinations spread out over a large area. You need to add 9 or so destinations. And for that, it really needs a separate line. The only requirement is to transfer, which as I illustrated at other airports, you have to do anyway (even if it is without your bags, past security). How does AirTrain do a poor job of connecting mass transit to JFK. IT stops right at the station?
In conclusion, is a two-seat ride really so daunting that people will get to Howard Beach and turn around in despair when they have to make a transfer? Is it worth the added cost. People have to transfer everywhere else in the system. There isn't even an ADA compliancy issue with transferring here.
You mentioned that the Port Authority has to charge $5. I find this doubtful (otherwise, they're screwed, and I can't defend them). They'd have to charge more for the cost of added complexity and construction. And this doesn't even begin to address the issues of fare control.
On one hand, you argue that AirTrain should be integrated into the subway system, while at the same time, you are concerned over the cost.
I think it is safe to presume that as expensive as AirTrain is, it will be more expensive to integrate into the subway system, and so far, nobody has offered me any valid reason to incorporate AirTrain other than the reason I mentioned: the one seat ride.
I don't follow. The only differences between my proposal and AirTrain are (a) my proposal eliminates one of the AirTrain's two branches; (b) my proposal trades a track connection for a station at Howard Beach; and (c) my proposal requires some sort of system to collect fares from subway riders but not from intra-airport passengers. (a) is clearly a major point in favor of my proposal; I'm not sure about (b) but I'd guess it's also in my favor; and (c) is a minor point in favor of AirTrain. It looks to me like my proposal wins in terms of cost.
As for the one-seat ride -- I honestly think this is really a big deal. Without a one-seat ride to any but two points, I doubt it will see much usage. Not everyone is agile enough to run up and down stairs at will (I'll cite my own mother, who has moderate difficulty climbing stairs -- she lives in Manhattan and works in Brooklyn, within a few blocks from the subway at either end, but she drives simply so she won't have to climb up three times -- entering, transferring, and exiting -- on the trip home), and with baggage few will have any interest in trying.
It just seems awfully silly to me to go out of one's way to design a system that, if it's at all successful, will force nearly all of the passengers on the train (there are many more JFK-bound passengers than Rockaway-bound passengers) to leave the train, go upstairs, and enter another train. Why make people go through all that trouble when a short track connection instead of a station would allow them to stay put?
Fair enough. But in order to accomplish this, you're basically constructing the same $1.5 billion AirTrain allignment that we have before us, but adding on the costs required to accomodate a full MTA consist. You still need the guideway out to the subway stations to male the connections. You must also add on the cost of the actual connection (presumably small). And, you must add on the cost required to extend all the AirTrain platforms to 600 plus feet (if they aren't already).
No, just half of the AirTrain alignment -- the branch to Jamaica can be dispensed with, or at least postponed until it's clear whether it's necessary.
I don't think accomodating a full MTA consist is a major expense.
The Howard Beach branch would be exactly as it is with the actual AirTrain, except it would end at a track connection instead of a station.
Platforms don't need to be extended (unless long platforms are warranted for passenger flow, in which case they should be extended regardless). South Ferry is short and we can all live with that.
I will respectfully beg to differ that eliminating subway service to a neighbourhood is easy.
I really don't see the big deal here. The Lefferts branch has three lightly used stations. Traffic isn't heavy; bus service wouldn't be much slower.
Still, if you don't like that solution, I gave three others. Take your pick.
Regardless, baisc transportation principles dictate that multiple branchings add complexity. Ron doesn't need to quote the MTA. A train enterring the system has to fit within other trains heading in the same direction, roughly analogous to cars merging on to a highway. Is it impossible? No. But all this alphabet rearrangement of the Rockaway lines is purely academic. The Manhattan-bound trackage at Howard Beach has a limitted capacity. All returning subways from the AirTrain must fit within A trains returning from the Rockaways. I believe Rockaway bound A Trains have a large headway, making this easier than on other lines in the system, but the loading charectaristics on a subway circulating in the system will be different. A couple of flights deplane, and the subway is tied up.
Referring to the three options (ignoring the one of canceling Lefferts service, since you didn't like it) I mentioned earlier (run the C to Lefferts and the A to Far Rockaway and JFK; run the A to Lefferts and JFK and the H to the Rockaways; split Rockaway trains into two pieces, one to JFK and one to Far Rockaway): recall that the A and C share trackage under the East River. If there's enough track capacity to run the A and C together under the East River, there must be enough track capacity to run the A and C together out in Queens. Since the H would, presumably, would run no more frequently than the C, there must be enough track capacity to run the A and H together out in Queens. And splitting trains where they diverge doesn't require any additional track capacity.
One side effect to your argument is that with a two-seat ride, a person could take any Rockaway bound A train to Howard beach, and pick up any AirTrain. Now, the only way to enter the system is from a JFK bound A Train. The JFK A-Train has to be scheduled within the Rockaway A Trains (and the Lefferts A). I don't know what the headway is on these existing trains, but you can only add enough JFK A Trains. What if the time between JFK A trains is longer than the time required to take any Rockaway A and transfer to the first available AirTrain?
All three of my scheduling proposals replace an existing branch of the A (or half of one) with the new branch to JFK. Currently, headways on the two branches are equal; I don't see why that would change, unless the connection becomes popular enough to warrant increased service.
Yes, this can be considered a problem. Is this done anywhere else in the MTA system? It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase: "you must be in the first n cars to exit." While a solution, it relies on unproven technology and non-standard practices.
Oh, I know. I realize this option is pretty fanciful. The other two are more down-to-earth. Again, take your pick.
But what are you going to incorporate? JFK isn't a single destination. It's not like adding an express subway stop at 96th street on the A. It's multiple destinations spread out over a large area. You need to add 9 or so destinations. And for that, it really needs a separate line. The only requirement is to transfer, which as I illustrated at other airports, you have to do anyway (even if it is without your bags, past security). How does AirTrain do a poor job of connecting mass transit to JFK. IT stops right at the station?
Why is adding nine new stations to an existing subway line unfathomable?
Other airports don't require a transfer. Chicago's Blue Line stops right at O'Hare's domestic terminals (yes, the international terminal requires a transfer). Chicago's Orange Line stops a short walk from Midway's terminal (no, that's not an ideal arrangement). London's Piccadilly line has two stops directly serving Heathrow's four terminals. I realize JFK's layout requires more than one or two stations, but how is this any different in principle?
AirTrain does a fine job of connecting mass transit to the airport -- that's the problem. It should be the mass transit to the airport.
In conclusion, is a two-seat ride really so daunting that people will get to Howard Beach and turn around in despair when they have to make a transfer? Is it worth the added cost. People have to transfer everywhere else in the system. There isn't even an ADA compliancy issue with transferring here.
No, people won't turn around at Howard Beach. They'll just take a cab instead.
Of course there are trnasfers throughout the system. The subway system is old and existing lines already exist as they are. More importantly, I can't think of any point in the system where the X train nearly empties out and transfers to the Y train, and vice versa -- generally, at a transfer point, some if not most of the passengers remain on the same train. The AirTrain is new and could easily accomodate a track connection, and nearly all the passengers on the A will get off at Howard Beach to transfer to the AirTrain (and vice versa). Why make them go through that?
You mentioned that the Port Authority has to charge $5. I find this doubtful (otherwise, they're screwed, and I can't defend them). They'd have to charge more for the cost of added complexity and construction. And this doesn't even begin to address the issues of fare control.
I got this information from earlier postings here and on nyc.transit. It may be inaccurate. Are you claiming that AirTrain won't charge a fare at all? I hope so but I doubt it.
No, people won't turn around at Howard Beach. They'll just take a cab instead.
Ever try getting one there? It's virtually impossible. No yellow cabs, and the local cab company charged $10 per person to JFK with four people cramming in when I got stuck there a year or two ago by a bomb scare when they wouldn't let us cross over or reboard another train - and that was after an hour-plus wait.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You have to factor race and poverty into this thread.
Neither the Port Authority nor the airlines wanted subway passengers, who they associated with poverty/crime/panhandling, out to their airport. They wanted the middle class/affluent, who either drive or take commuter rail. That's why they wanted a separate system, connected to commuter rail and the parking lots, with a big charge for transfer from the subway.
Seem ridiculous? Think back to 1990, when the Airtrain system was being planned, rather than looking at it with the perspective of today. Homeless on every subway train, and sleeping in every station. 2,000 murders per year. Etc.
I never say the subway as the sole preserve of the underclass. But at least they could build the entire system they promised.
You have to factor race and poverty into this thread.
Neither the Port Authority nor the airlines wanted subway passengers, who they associated with poverty/crime/panhandling, out to their airport. They wanted the middle class/affluent, who either drive or take commuter rail. That's why they wanted a separate system, connected to commuter rail and the parking lots, with a big charge for transfer from the subway.
Seem ridiculous? Think back to 1990, when the Airtrain system was being planned, rather than looking at it with the perspective of today. Homeless on every subway train, and sleeping in every station. 2,000 murders per year. Etc.
The absurdity of the PA/airline viewpoint is proven by the other airports with direct subway or light rail service - Chicago, DC Reagan, Atlanta, BWI, St. Louis, Philadelphia, maybe others. I've never heard of any skell or crime problems associated with the transit connections.
You're assuming that this is the exact viewpoint, and then responding accordingly. It's convenient to be both the spokesman for your opponent and yourself - easier than debating the real opponent.
The PA has consistently expressed a desire to utilize new technologies in its airport access system., AirTrain is an exampleof that. I consider arguments about incompatibility with the subway to be more supportable than the others. I may or may not agree, but there is, at least, solid, irrefutable evidence of a (currently) incompatible technology.
I'm not saying there's no elitism involved. But I'd give it a lot more credence if the MTA had made more of an effort to get a subway into an airport (either LGA or JFK). The agency has not; the latest proposal to serve LGA (extending the "N" train has more to fear from the City Council than it does from the PA.
(But I'd give it a lot more credence if the MTA had made more of an effort to get a subway into an airport (either LGA or JFK). The agency has not; the latest proposal to serve LGA (extending the "N" train has more to fear from the City Council than it does from the PA.)
If the PA had included funding for the N to LGA in its capital plan, using the profits from LGA airport (ie. not the PFC), no one here would be complaining. I'm just talking about the PA paying for the tracks and the two stations, mind you. The MTA would cover the cars and any and all operating subsidies.
If the PA had offered to build the entire system they originally promised, they'd still be heros. You might get some one-seat ride complaints, but if they offered a hook-in in LIC, so the MTA could run direct to GCT or Penn when LIRR to GCT was built, those complaints would have gone away.
Your perspective is that we should be grateful we even got the Airtrain. I'm tired of paying more, and getting less, from city and state government.
"If the PA had included funding for the N to LGA in its capital plan, using the profits from LGA airport (ie. not the PFC), no one
here would be complaining. I'm just talking about the PA paying for the tracks and the two stations, mind you. The MTA would
cover the cars and any and all operating subsidies."
Yes, the PA could have done that - and you have a good point (laying aside City Council problems for a moment). Actually, they could still do it, assuming the new capital plan is not yet set in stone. Competing items would include PATH projects (new cars, station renovations) as well as port dredging; JFK Cargo and Terminal improvements (but $600 million at JFK for cargo is already committed from the previous plan). Your proposal would be worthy of consideration by the PA.
But remember, the Governors' projects tend to take center stage. I believe there is a PA plan to give MTA some money to help with East Side Access. I don't know how much, or in what specific way this was intended, or how, legally, the money can be directed. It doesn't sound like it's a lot (eg not enough to build a train line with etc.)
No, I meant that they'd take a cab from the start.
(But it just occurred to me, for trips from the airport to the subway, a cab would probably be cheaper than the AirTrain -- certainly with multiple passengers.)
"(But it just occurred to me, for trips from the airport to the subway, a cab would probably be cheaper than the AirTrain --
certainly with multiple passengers.)"
In a generally non-ADA-compliant environment, a cab in Manhattan to LIRR would be cheaper and faster than a cab to the airport, with tolls and time being additional factors to weigh. However, there certainly may be shuttle services that are cheaper than using any train - but you still have to account for traffic. Shorter travel times, ease of luggage handling (represented by ADA access), are necessary to get people out of cars. They are not the only factors, of course.
"As for the one-seat ride -- I honestly think this is really a big deal. Without a one-seat ride to any but two points, I doubt it will
see much usage. Not everyone is agile enough to run up and down stairs at will (I'll cite my own mother, who has moderate
difficulty climbing stairs -- she lives in Manhattan and works in Brooklyn, within a few blocks from the subway at either end,
but she drives simply so she won't have to climb up three times -- entering, transferring, and exiting -- on the trip home), and
with baggage few will have any interest in trying."
Do you read what you post? Do you know what ADA access means?
Okay, skip the stairs -- there's still a lot of unnecessary running around and waiting (for trains and for elevators). Why force an entire trainload to go through that when a direct track connection would probably be even cheaper?
"Okay, skip the stairs -- there's still a lot of unnecessary running around and waiting (for trains and for elevators). Why force an
entire trainload to go through that when a direct track connection would probably be even cheaper?"
You're still missing the travel time issue, Dave. You think it's a side issue, but it's not. You like the subway, it's obvious, and I do too - but your willingness to send somebody "around the world" from Queens to Manhattan to Brooklyn to the airport suggests a serious disconnect with reality. The London Underground's Picaddilly Line goes to Heathrow, but it's the BritRail commuter line from Paddington Station that everyone raves about. Why? Passengers on the Picaddilly Line consistently point to its slowness. Longer travel time.
Why do you think the MTA tried "The Plane to the Train" in the 1970's? Now, it was flawed inasmuch as you still had to ride that stupid bus to the terminals, and it only ran every 20 minutes at best. But the route was a "super express" making many fewer stops than the "A" express did. The point? Reduction in travel time. Would it have succeeded if the train had gone straight into the airport and circulated around the terminals? I think it would have done better that way, yes (and of course they would not have been able to use the R-46 cars at the terminals).
I will concede this much: If you could a) substantially increase "A" train speeds to reduce travel time ("tilt train" technology in the subways, anyone?), b) invest enough in ADA-compliant stations in Manhattan along the line, you would have a more tenable proposal. You're still leaving most of the Queens, Bronx and suburban markets untouched, and I don't agree with that, but you've got a shot at satisfying Manhattan and some (not all) Brooklyn commuters. Guarantee a trip time of midtown to airline terminal equal to what LIRR-AirTrain has advertised, only using the "A" train instead, and then maybe you would have a tenable proposal.
We still would end up building another line down from Queens - it's patently absurd to force them to travel to Manhattan first.
One major advantage of the Airtrain is simply that it's actually being built. This is really the only rail project of this size we're actually seeing, you know, in reality within New York City.
:-) Andrew
I will second that.
MATT-2AV
It still staggers me that none of the NYC-area airports have direct access to the subway. London, Washington, and Atlanta all have direct subway access to their airports, and here in Chicago it's simply an accepted fact of life that you can take the L to either O'Hare or Midway.
I usually try to keep my mouth shut regarding local political issues in cities I've never lived in, but I think the Port Authority really needs to pull its head out of its ass on this issue. After all, this affects more than just New Yorkers, but also those of us who visit New York and spend lots of tourist dollars there.
And speaking of major cities being held back in the stone ages by parochial political interests, the stalemate over new runways at O'Hare continues. Everybody seems to agree that O'Hare is severely overcrowded, but nobody has the balls to build new runways there. Mayor Daley insists two new terminals will solve the capacity problem, while Governor Ryan continues to pander to anti-noise NIMBY idiots by insisting on building a third airport 50 miles away from Chicago in the cornfields of Peotone.
Hopefully, our salvation will be in the form of two senators from Iowa, of all places, who are sponsoring federal legislation that would strip Ryan of his veto powers of new runways at O'Hare. Here's hoping the bill passes and that we'll finally be able to tell the suburban politicians and their NIMBY constituents where to stick it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
But, if a REAL network of decent highspeed rail actually gets going, then we can stop wasting resources on airplanes.
I couldn't agree with you more on that one. Ideally, I'd like to see a Midwest network of real high-speed rail with a major terminal in downtown Chicago, along with a non-stop express train from that terminal to O'Hare similar to London's Heathrow Express. Major airlines, particularly United and American, could even offer baggage and check-in services at the downtown rail terminal. Unfortunately, nobody in Washington, Springfield, nor City Hall seems to have the vision and/or political backbone for anything like that.
As a short-term solution to the airport capacity problems, I think at least one more runway at O'Hare is the right thing to do in addition to expanding capacity at Midway and especially Gary. In the long term, however, I agree that high-speed rail on a regional level is the way to go.
But the NIMBY's near O'Hare couldn't care less about high-speed rail, though. They're just pissed off because they bought expensive houses next to a major airport and were shocked to discover that planes make noise. Their complaints would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that poiticians from their district rule Springfield.
-- David
Chicago, IL
High speed rail is great for major corridors like the NEC and the Midwest. Lines that serve the lower Great Lakes region and go down to St. Louis and the Ohio Valley would be a great idea for the next Acela. But HSR cannot compete with planes in trips through the vast cornfields of flyover country. Planes will always be faster.
Planes will only be supplanted by teleportation. Or maybe new planes that fly higher and faster (higher to minimize the sonic boom noise, but I'm not sure if that will work).
In the debate between planes, trains and automobiles, I think we need to stop thinking in terms of one-versus-the-other, but more in terms of an integrated transportation network. Given the current hub-and-spoke system of airline travel, planes will always dominate long-distance travel of, say, about 300 miles or more. However, high-speed rail could effectively serve as at least a few of the "spokes" of the hub-and-spoke system as well as corridor service between major cities in a particular region. Airlines could even offer integrated ticketing systems between plane and train, say for a trip from Urbana to New York via high-speed train to Chicago and then a flight to NYC all on a single ticket.
That said, I'd be interested to find out how well long-distance high-speed trains would do, particularly if trains offered upscale overnight accomidations and/or "auto train" service. It would never replace air for mainstream long-distance or business travel, but it might be enough of a niche market to be worthwhile.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Right you are, David. Even pre Acela, ATK already outsold the airlines in the Ny-Was market,. If the Boston leg and Was-Bos market in general increase as the current trends seem to indicate, the real question becomes when will the political money puppeteers get a clue. The Airtrain(and BART to SFO) disasters were wonderful spend like its a DOD contract but produce junk deals. s usual, in both cases the political decisions overcame logic, rational design, AND RIDER UTILITY. Will we use the junk they are building? Well yes, if we use those airports, but the O'Hare, Cleveland, DCA pattern is the right one. Nidway IMHO is great except it doesn't go to the terminal!
Midway IMHO is great except it doesn't go to the terminal!
I agree with you there, too. In general I'm very pleased with the new terminal at Midway which recently opened, but the city and CTA, in typical fashion, missed a huge opportunity to better integrate the Orange Line station into the airport. I realize there were a number of challenges that would make an easier connection difficult, namely the locations of the rail yard and parking garage between the ROW and terminal as well as the desire to extend the Orange Line further south to Ford City.
But these are not challenges that couldn't have been overcome with some more thoughtful master planning on the part of the city and the CTA. As it is right now, the Orange Line connection at Midway seems to be more of an afterthought rather than a main entry point into the airport. Getting from the terminal to the Orange Line involves a long walk from an obscure "back door" of the terminal that awkardly twists its way through and around the parking garage, as opposed to the near-perfect connection with the Blue Line at O'Hare. At the very least, they could have built a nice underground concourse from the baggage claim level of the new terminal that passes under the garage and rail yard and connects to the Orange Line platforms from below.
Oh well... I guess we should be thankful there even is a connection at Midway. London and Atlanta also have very good connections between the airports and subway systems. I've never been to Washington, so I can't really comment one way or the other about that connection.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You will find Hong Kong is even more atonishing, the Airport Railway built by the MTR(Mass Transit Railway which is the subway operator) make a very good intergration work to the airport terminal because it is a new airport--Hong Kong International Airport at Chek Lap Kok (pronouce it as English). It intergrates all forms of transportation include a high speed morden railway which takes 23 mintues only to Central. You can take almost everything from airport but not taxi only in Kai Tak era.
You just need to take a short walk from the station to the check-in counters in the terminal, actually the station is right in front of the terminal. You can even use In-town check-in service provide by MTR. But the drawback is relatively highly charged fare--about US$8-12(US$1=HK$7.8) while other modes provide a cheaper fare (except taxi), so it still has a low usage. Thanks for the Asia Economic Crisis, the airport is never as busy as it designs. The servise is called the Airport Express.
You can look out some information from the following sites:
Airport Authority
MTR Corporation
PS:Kai Tak site is still under planning, so it is still very empty.
"I've never been to Washington, so I can't really comment one way or
the other about that connection."
The Metro station is right across from the terminal: all you do is cross under the airport roadway and you're there. Living in Chicago, where the airports are the end of their respective L lines (as in Cleveland, Atlanta, Baltimore light rail, Philly's R1 line, Saint Louis, etc.), it seems somewhat odd for an airport station to be just another stop on the line, with trains coming from both directions.
actually its better than that. From either N or S fare control there is a weatherproof bridge to the terminal building, and at least at the North end, there is a baggagecart stand and a set of flight info monitors. The Metro in turn has a center track for short turns.
Reagan Airport certainly has a nice transit set-up. A subway extension to LaGuardia would realisically either need one station, with a connection to a tram to take you to the other terminals (MARTA style?), or perhaps two stops with no tram (???)
And then there's the possibility of an AirTrain extension. I know of nothing official from the PA, but there's plenty of rumor (as usual).
It seems to be a watse to build a whole new system to JFK.
Thanks for Airtrain built by PA uses Airtrain technology from Bombardier, it is uncapable to other systems.
To solve the problem, you can either demolish to whole thing or demolish the track only. Change the track into normal railroad or subway track. I'm just afraid that the light structure of the bridge cannot withstand on them.
JFK suppose can be connected by two ways:Subway and LIRR.
Subway is definately unuser-friendly for aiport users because of its design. LIRR is a better choice, but I think MTA would not do it because it is even harder to control the whole system. And also there are not enough stations on Manhattan in LIRR--Penn Station is the only one!
Sorry for worng spelling and wrong word choice. Instead of " it is uncapable to other systems.", it should be "it is incompatible to other systems.".
There were multiple needs at JFK. There was a need for an airport circulator to connect all of the terminals within the airport, and then there was a need transit to and from the airport.
The AirTrain clearly meets the first need (especially where a subway extension could never meet such a need). The jury is out on the second.
One thing is for sure, though. The jury will be in long before the MTA would have had a shovel in the ground on any subway or LIRR extension to JFK. The PA's ability to get things built quickly is pretty impressive.
I think the extension of the AirTrain from Jamaica to LGA is pretty much a done deal internally at the PA.
CG
Why could a subway extension have never met the need for an airport circulator? The AirTrain car dimensions are the same as the R32 (etc.) dimensions, are they not? So the same tracks could be used by the A train (which would, itself, circulate) and the dedicated in-airport train. The subway extension could have followed the exact route the PA's system is following in the airport.
The only challenge would be fare collection -- specifically, how to collect fares from subway riders but allow in-airport riders to ride for free. The simplest solution I can think of is to have two platforms, one inside and one outside the fare zone. Trains only open their doors on the appropriate side.
You didn't read the posts which were up recently about this. MTA had the option of using its one-track wide ROW into the airport and chose not to. Beside the "branching problem" I've detailed in past posts (very recent ones actually)it's possible subway trains do not have the required turning radius whereas AirTrain vehicles, obviously, do.
The fact that a Chevy and a Toyota are the same length do not give them the same turning circle.
"The only challenge would be fare collection -- specifically, how to collect fares from subway riders but allow in-airport riders to
ride for free. The simplest solution I can think of is to have two platforms, one inside and one outside the fare zone. Trains only
open their doors on the appropriate side."
No - that's the final challenge after all others have been overcome. That's why most "simple" solutions to airport transit can exist here on the Subtalk board, and nowhere else.
I did read your other posts. I didn't buy your claims. Sorry.
I'm not talking about the Rockaway line. I'm talking about a direct track connection between the A near Howard Beach and the line that's currently being built from HB to the airport. (Forget the more expensive line to Jamaica for now -- it's unnecessary for basic service. Build it later if warranted.) A track connection would probably be cheaper than a fancy new station; it would also be a lot easier on the riders, many of whom would now have a direct ride from the airport to their destinations. Remember, some of these riders might actually have (gasp!) luggage.
The branching problem is a red herring. If the Lefferts branch is handed over to the C, then the A could serve JFK with no additional branching. Alternatively, revive the round-robin H between Euclid and the Rockaways and run the A only to Lefferts and JFK. (Ever seen the passenger loads to the Rockaways? A direct connection to JFK would serve many more passengers than direct service to the Rockaways. Besides, most Rockaways passengers don't have luggage, and the Rockaway transfer would be on the same platform while the AirTrain transfer to JFK involves stairs, escalators, and/or elevators.) A third option, which would involve some preliminary technological work: devise a system of rapidly coupling and decoupling cars. At Rockaway Blvd., split the A train into two pieces; one would continue to Lefferts or Far Rockaway as it does today; the other would go to JFK. The issue is certainly not branching in terms of tracks rather than routes; the BMT tracks past DeKalb branch four ways (Brighton, West End, Sea Beach, Bay Ridge) and used to branch five (Culver), plus expresses, and in the other direction they also branch four ways (Nassau, Broadway via tunnel, Broadway via bridge, Sixth Avenue).
True, due to wheel placement, two cars of identical dimensions may not have the same turning radii. That's not a problem, since the TA is ordering new cars now anyway -- just order cars with the proper turning radius and use them for airport service (and elsewhere in the system, if there are extras).
The only reason the subway doesn't run directly to JFK is politics -- politics that, once again, get in the way of progress. The AirTrain is only a slight improvement over the current bus service to the airport -- at over four times the price per ride. That's progress?
Dave,
You'd make a great political speechwriter. I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that.
But here's what you missed:
"I did read your other posts. I didn't buy your claims. Sorry."
They're not my claims. They're MTA's claims.
"A track connection would probably be cheaper than a fancy new
station; it would also be a lot easier on the riders, many of whom would now have a direct ride from the airport to their
destinations. Remember, some of these riders might actually have (gasp!) luggage."
OK - there's merit here (though I can see equal merit in the PA's solution). But don't convince me - convince the MTA. If they wanted to build your track connection I promise I wouldn't stand in their way.
"The branching problem is a red herring. If the Lefferts branch is handed over to the C, then the A could serve JFK with no
additional branching."
Wrong. While the Ozone Park vs. Rockaway branch involves distinct tracks, both locals and expresses would be expected to serve both branches. The MTA is looking at scheduling in toto - how the entire 8th Av line would function as a result. Their conclusions are not necessarily the "only" ones, but you're looking at one aspect of it only. That's not how I would want a subway managed.
"True, due to wheel placement, two cars of identical dimensions may not have the same turning radii. That's not a problem, since
the TA is ordering new cars now anyway -- just order cars with the proper turning radius and use them for airport service (and
elsewhere in the system, if there are extras)."
Design is simple when you don't have to fuss over details, Dave. But it isn't. If Ford designed a car the way Subtalkers want to design a subway on this chat site, the car would be ready in 2 weeks and cost $100. As I pointed out before, that's why this is Subtalk, not the real world.
"The only reason the subway doesn't run directly to JFK is politics -- politics that, once again, get in the way of progress. The
AirTrain is only a slight improvement over the current bus service to the airport -- at over four times the price per ride. That's
progress?"
It's here, it's built, it's going to work (and do you actually know what the fare will be, or are you guessing?) - so yes, that's progress. I'll take it any day over a plan which I might use one day on Microsoft Train Simulator - and nowhere else.
[Design is simple when you don't have to fuss over details, Dave. But it isn't. If Ford designed a car the way Subtalkers want to design a subway on this chat site, the car would be ready in 2 weeks and cost $100. As I pointed out before, that's why this is Subtalk, not the real world. ]
I don't think we are so out of touch here.
Arti
The original point of the threat (a long, long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away) was that the PA and the airlines made a major stink four years ago about how they could not abide extending an existing subway system from either Howard Beach or Jamaica to JFK. The airlines in fact, didn't seem to want any rail connection off-airport at all, and Airtrain ended up as the compromise.
I'm willing to assume the Port Authority was being up-front about this, and weren't playing some type of "good cop, bad cop" scenario out with the airlines in an effort to freeze out the MTA. But you've got to admit, when the PA comes back in 2001 and talks about extending the subway line that they operate to Newark Airport, it has to make you stop and say "What you talkin' about, Willis?" -- there's an obvious inconsistancy here. If the airlines were dead set against an outside mass transit intrusion at one airport and said it was illegal to spend the $3 surcharge on an out-of-airport rail system, shouldn't they be opposed to an outside mass transit intrusion at all airports?
And while the Airtrain system may be designed to be serve airport customers better than an R-44 or an R-32 car would, they will still have to haul baggage from either the A/E/J trains or from the LIRR to the new trains, a problem that would have been eliminated with a one-seat ride (and as far as the in-airport transfers, Metrocards could be used for entry and exit that would recognize that a passenger was just going from one JFK station to another and would not deduct any fare, and machines could have been set up at each station to vend the "airport transfer' Metrocards to people not wanting or needing to buy a regular Metrocard).
I realize that Elvis has left the building on this one -- Airtrain is going to be built, it's not going to be compatible with the IND/BMT system, and New Yorkers are going to have to live with it. But that doesn't mean it was either the best or the only system that would have worked -- only a PR flack from the Port Authority would try to get away with that one.
The airlines were much more in the PA's crosshairs than the MTA was. I find it rather strange that people are willing to ovrlook the MTA's complicity in all this, pointing a finger solely at the PA without evidence to back up this view.
I like your general idea of using MetroCards to provide free in-airport rides, but free airport-use-only cards wouldn't work -- what's to stop me from using one of those to get into the system and then to ride up to the Bronx? Unless you're proposing exit swipes system-wide, the card would have to be purchased for at least $1.50, which would be deducted on entry and then (if appropriate) refunded on exit.
How expensive would it be to reprogram the Metrocard system for exit-swiping?
Washington Metro uses it for distance-based travel; so does PATCO in Philadelphia. (PATCO, admittedly, is a tiny system compared to NY).
[How expensive would it be to reprogram the Metrocard system for exit-swiping? ]
You'd need to rebuild it, as there's some missing hardware. Also MVMs inside the fare control.
Arti
"Also MVMs inside the fare control."
Yes, thank you. Forgot about those...
Point taken. I suppose a minimum fee would be needed, but certain Metrocard machines at the airport could be set up to dispense only cards with $1.50 in fares on them, that could be redeemed at other machines at the airport after someone exited the train.
You'd make a great political speechwriter. I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that.
Well, thank you, but I'm afraid the political system is not by cup of tea. What petty politics has made of this issue in particular is inexcusable. Get back to me when politics yields good solutions rather than the mediocre yet expensive solution that's currently under construction.
OK - there's merit here (though I can see equal merit in the PA's solution). But don't convince me - convince the MTA. If they wanted to build your track connection I promise I wouldn't stand in their way.
I'm afraid it's a bit late now to get the MTA involved. That doesn't mean we can't discuss what went wrong, what should have been done, what could have been done better. Let's learn from our mistakes.
But what is the equal merit in the PA's solution? The PA's solution takes few where they're going and requires an inconvenient transfer -- or two or three -- for almost everyone. The PA's solution involves building two new elevated lines and an expensive station at the end of each. My solution takes many directly where they're going and offers many more transfers (some right on the same platform) to other lines. My solution only requires the shorter of the PA's two elevated lines and does away with the need for either of the two stations. It sure seems to me that my solution is more convenient and cheaper than the PA's. Am I wrong on both counts?
Wrong. While the Ozone Park vs. Rockaway branch involves distinct tracks, both locals and expresses would be expected to serve both branches. The MTA is looking at scheduling in toto - how the entire 8th Av line would function as a result. Their conclusions are not necessarily the "only" ones, but you're looking at one aspect of it only. That's not how I would want a subway managed.
I don't see the problem. The A and C share trackage between Canal and Hoyt-Schermerhorn already. Why can't they share trackage again past Euclid? There may be brief delays if two lines meet the merge point at the same time, but that's the case everywhere in the system and it can be avoided with proper scheduling.
Without consulting the track maps, I'll also mention that it might be possible to use the express tracks past Euclid, either the single center track west of Rockaway Blvd. or (more likely) the pair of express tracks towards Howard Beach, which would lead directly into the new airport line.
What aspect am I missing?
Design is simple when you don't have to fuss over details, Dave. But it isn't. If Ford designed a car the way Subtalkers want to design a subway on this chat site, the car would be ready in 2 weeks and cost $100. As I pointed out before, that's why this is Subtalk, not the real world.
But the details aren't relevant to the points I'm making. Is it possible to build a train that will fit through the AirTrain's curves? Obviously there is -- the PA is buying a bunch of them. What difference does it make to this discussion whether I know its precise specifications? Someone more qualified than I has already dealt with this issue.
It's here, it's built, it's going to work (and do you actually know what the fare will be, or are you guessing?) - so yes, that's progress. I'll take it any day over a plan which I might use one day on Microsoft Train Simulator - and nowhere else.
I picked up the $5 fare here and/or on nyc.transit. I can't vouch for its accuracy. Still, I find any fare beyond the basic fare to enter the subway system objectionable.
It remains to see if it will work. Oh, I'm sure trains will move back and forth on it, but will there be people on those trains? I'm afraid I would have preferred the current buses over spending the expensive system that's being built now.
"But what is the equal merit in the PA's solution? The PA's solution takes few where they're going and requires an inconvenient
transfer -- or two or three -- for almost everyone. The PA's solution involves building two new elevated lines and an expensive
station at the end of each. My solution takes many directly where they're going and offers many more transfers (some right on
the same platform) to other lines. My solution only requires the shorter of the PA's two elevated lines and does away with the
need for either of the two stations. It sure seems to me that my solution is more convenient and cheaper than the PA's. Am I
wrong on both counts?"
Let's flesh out your idea some more here, if you don't mind. You want the MTA to utilize their one-track ROW into JFK. So, your line branches off the Rockaway "A" line, and runs on the surface for two miles, nearing the terminal loop. You've laid one track (and let's further say you can obtain rights to a second parallel track if needed.) Fencing is up, third rail is laid, substation hooked up. Now, where does the track go from here? Where are the airport terminal stations on your route? Are they surface level too? Elevated? Underground? Will you use R-32's, or R-143's here?
Which one-track ROW are you referring to?
I'd branch off the A near Howard Beach and continue on what is in fact being built now as the AirTrain. My airport stations are exactly the ones that will in real life be AirTrain stations, the only difference being that some sort of segregation of airport circulator vs. subway passengers would be necessary to collect fares from the appropriate parties.
No, I don't know where exactly these stations would be. Does that matter? Obviously they can be built; the PA is building them now.
Car type doesn't make much of a difference. Of course, it has to fit, so 75-foot cars are out. If, as you surmised in an earlier post, the AirTrains have a smaller turning radius than the TA's 60-foot cars, it would have to run newly designed cars. If not, any 60-footers would do. Ideally, some sort of luggage accomodations would be made without heavily impacting maximum passenger loads -- overhead luggage racks might work, for instance.
Some details just don't matter at this point.
"Which one-track ROW are you referring to?"
The MTA has long had a ROW (that is, specifically the right to lay track) leading into JFK from the "A" line at Howard Beach. I don't know if the alignment is exactly where the Howard Beach AirTrain leg is now, but it must be very close. The ROW is mentioned in old correspondence to me from the MTA years ago, and in other public documents.
"I'd branch off the A near Howard Beach and continue on what is in fact being built now as the AirTrain. My airport stations are
exactly the ones that will in real life be AirTrain stations, the only difference being that some sort of segregation of airport
circulator vs. subway passengers would be necessary to collect fares from the appropriate parties.
No, I don't know where exactly these stations would be. Does that matter? Obviously they can be built; the PA is building them
now."
OK. So if you're building the same stations the PA is building, and building the Howard Beach leg into the subway, then your costs are going to be incurred by: 1) stations: ADA-compliant, elevators, escalators and climate controlled passages into terminals 2) Building the circulator portion 3) two miles of track and secured ROW from Howard Beach. At current MTA costs, you will need $600 million, minimum, for the track, another $120 million for stations, and additional sums for signal improvements on the "A" line.
Moreover, you've got another problem: AirTrain's Jamaica leg caters to a largely ADA-compliant transportation system (LIRR). This is important for people with luggage. Jamaica Station is compliant; so is Penn Station, where people can hop on any LIRR train headed for Jamaica. Most stations in Nassau and Suffolk are already compliant. Atlantic Av terminal is undergoing rehab and will be compliant as well. In contrast, the "A" train is largely non-compliant (staircases only). So, to really provide good airport access from the "A" train when you've consciously decided against hooking up access to LIRR, you at least have to fund renovations (at up to $30 million or more per station) at subway stations to bring them into compliance. Now, that will help subway riders in general, so I'd be all for it, but it could add hundreds of millions of dollars to your airport access tab short-term. And much of that cost is bond and fare-based, not PFT-based, so now you've got this project competing head-to-head with other priorities, and you're making enemies out of people who want the money spent elsewhere (like the Second Av subway and the "7" extension to Javits). PFT money is a separate pool, and it's already collected. It solves both a fiscal and political problem.
With me so far? Now, what about travel times using the "A" train vs. using LIRR toJamaica Station? What about people in Astoria, Elmhurst, Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, the northern part of Jamaica, Jamaica Estates? How do they get to JFK?
"Some details just don't matter at this point."
So tell us - which details are the unimportant ones?
The MTA has long had a ROW (that is, specifically the right to lay track) leading into JFK from the "A" line at Howard Beach. I don't know if the alignment is exactly where the Howard Beach AirTrain leg is now, but it must be very close. The ROW is mentioned in old correspondence to me from the MTA years ago, and in other public documents.
Why isn't the PA using it? In any case, this just means there are more options for a subway extension: build a new elevated line, as the PA is doing; build a one-track elevated line and use the ROW for the second track; or widen the ROW (if possible) to allow for two tracks side-by-side.
OK. So if you're building the same stations the PA is building, and building the Howard Beach leg into the subway, then your costs are going to be incurred by: 1) stations: ADA-compliant, elevators, escalators and climate controlled passages into terminals 2) Building the circulator portion 3) two miles of track and secured ROW from Howard Beach. At current MTA costs, you will need $600 million, minimum, for the track, another $120 million for stations, and additional sums for signal improvements on the "A" line.
1) Same as AirTrain, except I've eliminated the two largest stations.
2) Same as AirTrain.
3) Same as AirTrain.
As I've said before, I have no tolerance for the notion that the PA costs are somehow cheaper than the MTA costs. This is a bit of politics that serves only to get in the way of what's best for the public. Frankly, I don't care who builds it -- the PA, the MTA, my uncle Seymour -- but it has no business being excluded from the subway system.
Moreover, you've got another problem: AirTrain's Jamaica leg caters to a largely ADA-compliant transportation system (LIRR). This is important for people with luggage. Jamaica Station is compliant; so is Penn Station, where people can hop on any LIRR train headed for Jamaica. Most stations in Nassau and Suffolk are already compliant. Atlantic Av terminal is undergoing rehab and will be compliant as well. In contrast, the "A" train is largely non-compliant (staircases only). So, to really provide good airport access from the "A" train when you've consciously decided against hooking up access to LIRR, you at least have to fund renovations (at up to $30 million or more per station) at subway stations to bring them into compliance. Now, that will help subway riders in general, so I'd be all for it, but it could add hundreds of millions of dollars to your airport access tab short-term. And much of that cost is bond and fare-based, not PFT-based, so now you've got this project competing head-to-head with other priorities, and you're making enemies out of people who want the money spent elsewhere (like the Second Av subway and the "7" extension to Javits). PFT money is a separate pool, and it's already collected. It solves both a fiscal and political problem.
This has got to be one of the silliest things I've seen yet in this thread. You want easy connections to the LIRR instead of the subway because the LIRR is largely compliant and the subway is largely not -- never mind that most of the ridership is destined for points along the subway but not the LIRR! What good are accessible LIRR stations for a wheelchair passenger trying to get to, say, Inwood?
Penn Station is still accessible (and ADA-compliant) on the A train, for those who need it. Yes, it requires backtracking -- but don't forget that, in a properly designed system, probably 95% of the passengers would be coming from NYC. Shouldn't we be catering to them?
With me so far? Now, what about travel times using the "A" train vs. using LIRR toJamaica Station?
Travel times are secondary.
Which of these would you prefer: (a) swipe a MetroCard, board the subway, transfer to the A, sit for a while, get off in your terminal; or (b) swipe a MetroCard, board the subway, transfer to the A/C/E/1/2/3/9, get off at Penn Station, run around with your luggage through a large and probably unfamiliar station, pay $3.75 or $5.50 for an LIRR ticket, run around the station some more, board and ride the train, get off at Jamaica, run around a bit more, pay another $5.00 (if my facts are correct), ride this fourth train, get off in your terminal.
I think most New Yorkers (and tourists) would prefer the former, even if it takes a bit longer. (With all the transfers in option (b), a direct subway ride might well be faster even if actual travel time takes longer.)
Many air passengers will pay more or fly at inconvenient times to avoid having to change flights. What makes you think they'd be any more interested in changing trains? And when changing flights, they don't even have to shlep their checked luggage -- not so for changing trains.
What about people in Astoria, Elmhurst, Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, the northern part of Jamaica, Jamaica Estates? How do they get to JFK?
They ride into Manhattan and catch the A or they take the Q10. I'd love to include a two-branched subway connection, but I'd rather build one branch at a time. If the first branch is successful and a second is clearly warranted, build it then. Until then, I'm afraid that a single through subway service better serves the public than two passenger connections.
So tell us - which details are the unimportant ones?
Exactly which car type is used for the service, the precise wording of the station announcements, the names of the train operators, etc.
"As I've said before, I have no tolerance for the notion that the PA costs are somehow cheaper than the MTA costs. This is a
bit of politics that serves only to get in the way of what's best for the public. Frankly, I don't care who builds it -- the PA, the
MTA, my uncle Seymour -- but it has no business being excluded from the subway system."
I'm sorry that historical MTA construction costs do not meet with your personal standards for costing. I wish it were cheaper too, but I've learned I don't get everything I want in this world. Would you like to turn on your personal time machine, go back in time and tell them not to spend so much? AirTrain is on-time and on-budget so far.
"This has got to be one of the silliest things I've seen yet in this thread. You want easy connections to the LIRR instead of the
subway because the LIRR is largely compliant and the subway is largely not -- never mind that most of the ridership is destined
for points along the subway but not the LIRR! What good are accessible LIRR stations for a wheelchair passenger trying to get
to, say, Inwood? "
Show me proof that there's much less LIRR Airport demand than subway demand, and I'll admit to being silly.
"Show me proof that there's much less LIRR Airport demand than subway demand, and I'll admit to being silly. "
The only stats one could get which might be at all meaningful without doing a passenger survey would be to look at ridership on the current bus from Jamaica to JFK (once hourly at a cost of $5) against the subway shuttles at JFK (2 routes, every 20 minutes I think, free).
I do think there's considerable potential from the LIRR and expect to use the AirTrain for my JFK travel. I can either have my company pay for a car service from my house to JFK ($75-$100, 30 minutes). Or have my wife drop me at the train station for a trip to Jamaica (free with my monthly, 15 minutes) and then AirTrain ($5 ?, 15 minutes or so?). I'll save my company the $$ and won't even expense the AirTrain ticket.
CG
An interesting strategy. A business survey would be handy, and relevant, wouldn't it.
I would expect that, given the average length of a flight from JFK (which is probably the highest in the continental U.S.), most of the business travelers are coming from home, rather than the office. So the JFK to Manhattan market is essentially tourists and Manhattanites (vacation or business).
If one agrees with those assertions, there really isn't a compelling reason to have a high-speed one-seat one-stop connection to Manhattan from JFK (i.e. the LIRR Rockaway line solution).
One can make a reasonable case for having direct subway service to the airport -- despite the difficulties with humping luggage up and down stairs while making transfers, it's good for employees and even for the short trip traveller who might only be carrying one bag.
AirTrain is better than nothing in that regard, but still lacking somewhat.
The ideal solution (and this is pretty much how it works at every airport with transit that I've been to -- Washington National being an exception) is to have the subway come into an airport terminal station. Then distribute passengers onto the airport circulator from there.
This could be done by either a third branch of the A train, or by extending the Lefferts branch into the airport. Either way, there's no way the MTA was going to get the job done. Not this year, not next year, not in 2010.
The bottom line is, the Port Authority could pretty clearly see that the MTA wasn't going to bring MTA passengers to JFK, so they brought JFK to the MTA.
CG
[This could be done by either a third branch of the A train, or by extending the Lefferts branch into the airport]
Why, how would it really differ from the current solution?
Arti
You're very perceptive regarding the MTA.
The PA may have some statistics on JFK usage. It would be interesting to see it.
Not to be picky but isn't Newark Airport referred to as EWR?
Yes, but nobody (incl. me)bothered to correct the thread title.
It was corrected on a couple other branches of the thread, but they became inactive.
>Planes will always be faster.
Yes, planes are faster, and will always be faster than trains. However, when you add up the time that you need to get to the airport, find a place to park, get to the gate, get onto the plane, wait for the weather to clear, fly, land, find baggage claim, find the car rental counter, get your car, get into your car, and then drive to your destination, the high-speed rail from downtown to downtown really does save you time.
Think about the NY to DC run. How long does Metroliner take? How about the flight from LGA? How about getting to LGA vs. Penn station?
I have found that, on a time basis, Amtrak is competitive with airlines for trips up to about 24 hours - the train is my hotel room for one night. Longer than that, and the airlines are my way to go, except if I'm not in any hurry and want a cruise on rails to get to where I'm going.
I wasn't talking about short distances. If you had read my messages you'd realize how I was in favor of HSR in major corridors.
Those times on takeoff and landing aren't any longer for longer flights, making longer flights a savings over anything.
Check out the press releases at Boeing's website www.boeing.com for details of the new sonic cruiser, a proposed 250-seat passenger jet with an intended speed of Mach 0.95.
High speed rail is great for major corridors like the NEC and the Midwest. Lines that serve the lower Great Lakes region and go down to St. Louis and the Ohio Valley would be a great idea for the next Acela. But HSR cannot compete with planes in trips through the vast cornfields of flyover country. Planes will always be faster.
Planes will only be supplanted by teleportation. Or maybe new planes that fly higher and faster (higher to minimize the sonic boom noise, but I'm not sure if that will work).
That's stupid. Airplanes are the way to go. You don't need to build some sort of high speed intermediate infrastructure for them, they're fast anyway (airports the chokepoint).
Your dumbass arguments are no different from those of 19th Century dumbasses who decried wasting money on railroads when we can spend more money building canals and improving roads. It's not much different than the arguments that railroads are a waste and that we should spend money on interstates (ick) and airplanes.
Next time before you say something, put your brain in gear.
I wasn't going to contribute to this, but I've heard rumors that American Pig is the same teenager who previously went by the handle Pork.
Assuming that's true, I'll conclude that the name-calling we've witnessed here is the product of that youth and immaturity.
Now, do you think you could repost your argument in a more adult and respectful fashion?
Why don't you shut your fucking bigot mouth instead?
I'm sick of trying to talk nicely with a shit-spewing asshole like you. I have ABSOLUTELY no respect for somebody like you who is a complete bigot. And all of these words cannot possibly express the anger I have against a shithead like you.
If namecalling is a product of youth and immaturity, then you are acting like a five year old.
Welcome to my killfile. There you can sit by yourself and wallow in your idiocy.
BTW, It's nice that you can hide behind your handle. I'd like to see you say the same fucking crap to my face.
I can tell you that I certainly would have responded to you so amicably.
I've tried to talk to you nicely, but you keep on holding your same fucking prejudices. Join a hate group while you're at it.
I don't hate you. I can't respect your wanton use of vulgarity and insults which you hurl at anyone on this site who posts something you don't agree with.
And, in case you haven't noticed, my email address is active and available on the site, whereas yours is not. So it looks like you're the one who's hiding. And that's OK. It's just the quality of your interactions that leaves a bit to be desired.
Assuming that's true, I'll conclude that the name-calling we've witnessed here is the product of that youth and immaturity.
If Pigs here is mature enough to vote, fight, enter into contracts and be charged w/ felonies I think he have his posts treated seriously and w/o riducule.
When he calls someone a name it might just be because they deserve it. If your weren't an ageist bastard you might have taken that into consideration, but I guess you're just comfortable in your "traditional" world view. Perish the thought that this young upstart might sugest something that makes you and your great wisdom
wrong.
As people get older their ideas get WORSE, not better. What some mistake as wisdom is just a process of conformity. Our society rewards those who don't make waves because those in power (the old farts) are comfortable and don't want things to change. Progress and good ideas don't come from constantly looking back and doing what has already been done, it comes from looking ahead and doing the things that haven't been considered before. Studies have shown that as a college student Pigs' ideas are 20% MORE VALID than normal people's ideas.
Now on this issue I completely disagree w/ Pigs, but you still have no right to dismiss him out of hand just because you feel that you're entitled to some sort of senority that makes your opinions correct by default. Stop being a jerk and respond to his posts on a matter of FACT and not on a matter of age.
>>If Pigs here is mature enough to vote, fight, enter into contracts and be charged w/ felonies I think he have his posts treated seriously and w/o riducule.<<
So, it's alright to dismiss someone because they're not over 18, is that what you're saying? If so, then you are no better than the person you're adressing.
I don't know if JerseyMike meant that, but my opinion is that if you're old enough to be charged with felonies, you're old enough to vote, fight and enter into contracts.
Think about those laws in states that send thirteen year old to adult prisons for life, while NOT ONE state allows an exceptional thirteen year old to get all of the priviledges.
When it's convenient to oppress them, they're children. When it's convenient to oppress them, they're adults.
Newark International Airport FAA IAOC ID CODE EWR. ALL FLIGHT PLANS VFR/IFR To Be filled out EWR
I'm not ridiculing anybody's age; I am accepting young age and immaturity as a reasonable explanation for why "Pig" or anyone else would hurl insults at another person who writes something "Pig" doesn't agree with. There's a difference between "I don't agree with you, and here's why" and calling somebody a "dumbass" etc. The alternative would be to assume that "Pig" says these things because he is just mean or evil, and I am assuming that is not the case.
If you and "Pig" want people to treat you with respect and respond to your facts, you will need to demonstrate an ability to be civil in your postings.
"When he calls someone a name it might just be because they deserve it" - I and most others don't think so, and I doubt our Webmaster would agree either.
Now, I suggest you take this to heart and let's get back to the business of trains...
Pig presented both facts and called the person a name that was supported by that person's opinion in light of the presented facts.
"Dumbass" is not a name supported by facts. It is a vulgarity supported by emotional immaturity.
Apparently "Pig" isn't the only one needing to grow up a little...
Where the hell did I call anyone any names? I called his ideas dumbass and said they were done without his brain in gear. I was not insulting the person. The ideas deserved insult.
And I would rather my disparaging comments be attributed to my being a mean, nasty SOB than having a bigot claim it's caused by age. It is NO DIFFERENT than saying I do that because I am a woman (which I am not) or a member of a minority group (which I am not at this time).
IMHO you have a point.
Arti
minority group (which I am not at this time)
Yes you are, you're Jewish.
OH SHIT!
Yes you are, you're Jewish.
You make a good observation. I was expecting somebody to ask me to explain what I meant by at this time, and you figured it out.
In any case, Jews are not a minority anymore. Because the word minority has nothing to do with population, the word minority is used to describe a group of people considered inferior. And of course as a group rises up and comes to enjoy its members becoming members of the ruling classes it is no longer a minority.
I do not believe in classifying people. People can classify themselves if they wish. Forced classification is a function of a primitive society.
You know what I find funny, when a youth calls an older person's ideas garbage, or something like that, it's decried as immaturity as a result of youth. Yet, when some of the older people on this very board attack one of the younger, teenage posters, it starts a whole gang bang orgy of insutls and instigation. Yet, it's always described as the teenager getting his "due." Mmmm, funny. One day it will be OUR ideas that drive this country. "Controversial" or not. But, I don't want to get into an age debate because some folks just can't keep their composure on this board when they've been outclassed by a "whippersnapper."
You missed the point completely. I don't consider "Jersey Mike" or "American Pig" to be "whippersnappers." I like a lot of their ideas, and have said so in many posts. But I do, in principle, object to some of their replies, which are in fact, name-calling and contribute nothing to the board. Look carefully at Dave Vartanoff's posts and try to find even one where a vulgarity is used or where he has insulted someone. To the contrary, he treats everyone with respect and dignity, something neither "Jersey Mike" nor "American Pig" know how to do consistently(yet). This does not mean I think Dave's posts have all been well thought out (neither have all of mine, or anyone else's)but he has never made an argument personal in nature.
I have had email exchanges with "Jersey Mike" where he comes across as very bright and perceptive. I see those qualities in his posts as well, and in others, including "Pig's." That's great. But emotional maturity? No, at least not yet. That is something gained at varying speeds by different people, and some acquire it more slowly than intellectual maturity.
You may not agree with it, but there it is. I hope that with the passing of years and gain of wisdom, you will.
I never said YOU, specifically. Nary a need to get defensive. But you seem to miss the point as well. You go out of your way to say that you don't use the ageism theory, but yet you say such things as this...
>>>I hope that with the passing of years and gain of wisdom, you will.<<<
I'm already 16 years old. I know stuff like this. I don't know EVERYTHING, but neither does a man 60 years my senior. In fact, it's possible for me to know more than the average adult. Not being an egotist, just saying is all.
A whole 16, eh? Well, here's to many future happy birthdays for you - may you go on and change the world in your time (mag-lev subways in 2050?). Lots of luck and I wish you well.
Sorry, my thing is buses. Hopefully I can get a job for the TA in the future in the Dept. of Buses. I'd make sure the RTS is a mainstay in NYC. And thanks.
Good luck. I've lost count of the miles I've ridden RTS's.
If Metro Houston is only 16, and if he lives to 100, in his final years he might get to see the Second Avenue subway ... no, probably not.
I am laughing out loud at this...
excuse me for preferring flanged steel wheels on steel rails, obviously my post ended up on planetalk by mistake. (Note that I have not denigrated your mental function, merely your opinion)
I didn't denigrate your mental function, I've only pointed out that you didn't use it to make that post.
You see, I don't insult people, only their hairy ideas. Unless they are bigots or insult me first (me, not my ideas).
Not being aware of the effects of what you post is what has been getting you in trouble with some of us. One could even suggest that you haven't been thoughtful about your choice of words.
An apology to Mr. Vartanoff would be in order, in place of the flippant and thoughtless comment you just offered.
[An apology to Mr. Vartanoff would be in order, in place of the flippant and thoughtless comment you just offered. ]
Why? Actually woulnd't it be the issue b/w Pigs and Mr. Vartanoff?
Point here is why are we involved? :-)
Arti
I shouldn't have to explain that one to you. I'll let you think about it. :-)
"I usually try to keep my mouth shut regarding local political issues in cities I've never lived in, but I think the Port Authority
really needs to pull its head out of its ass on this issue. After all, this affects more than just New Yorkers, but also those of us
who visit New York and spend lots of tourist dollars there."
That's a pretty silly thing to post. The fact is, the PA is building rail access to the airports JFK's is 75% done and PATH is studying its options. Just because the PA isn't doing exactly what YOU want and HOW YOU want them to do does not mean nothing is being done.
I agree with your assessment about O'Hare's runway situation. Actually, it's more complicated: Inadequate runways, inadequate air traffic control, and too many private pilots/small jets at the airport. In fact, the associations representing airlines and small private planes are not interested in helping, the former because it helps keep ticket prices high, the latter because private pilots don't want to lose cheap access to O'Hare. Part of untangling O'Hare and other major airports would include banishing Cessnas and Beechcrafts to peripheral airports.
That's a pretty silly thing to post. The fact is, the PA is building rail access to the airports JFK's is 75% done and PATH is studying its options. Just because the PA isn't doing exactly what YOU want and HOW YOU want them to do does not mean nothing is being done.
So let's get this straight... The PA is building rail access at JFK that is totally incompatible with any other rail system in the area and which still doesn't provide a one-seat/one-fare ride to Manhattan, and they're doing so at a hugely bloated cost when it would have been much more feasible and less expensive to extend existing subway lines that are already in the vincinity and that provide a one-seat/one-fare ride to Manhattan. Ummm, yeah, AirTrain makes perfect sense, I guess...
Meanwhile up at the other end of Queens, arriving passengers at LaGuardia are foced to take the slow-as-molasses M60 bus (which doesn't even serve Midtown or the Financial District) or pay an exhorborant fare for a taxi to sit in traffic on the Triboro while the N train comes within a hair's breadth of the airport and the PA has blocked any efforts to extend it to the terminals. Yet another example of how things are done in a world-class city, I suppose.
Extending PATH to Newark is a good idea, but since it's still in the "study" phases, you can count on actual construction being at least a decade or two away. Somebody else on this thread correctly pointed out the irony of the PA extending "their own" subway to Newark while JFK gets a bloated train-to-another-train and LaGuardia continues to be soley dependent on highway access. Does anybody else agree that New York is getting screwed big time here?
Those of us out here in the cornfields of "flyover country" may not be as suave and sophisticated as the brain trust that runs New York, but at least we had the sense to retain city control over our airports and provide convenient transit access to both of them.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Chicago has always had a more pragmatic approach to things. Two El extensions serve both major airports. In NY, we have arrogant bureaucracies that do what they want to pacify contractors and give glib excuses for not doing what the customer wants. So we have EMD/Super Steel dual-mode shitcans on the LIRR, rather than electrification, Disney Land monorail to one airport, and now a linear induction toy for another, and nothing for the 35d airport. The fact is, PATH is what should have gone to EWR in the first place, but they dodn't want the commoners and homeless being able to get to airport terminals too easily.
"So let's get this straight... The PA is building rail access at JFK that is totally incompatible with any other rail system in the area
and which still doesn't provide a one-seat/one-fare ride to Manhattan, and they're doing so at a hugely bloated cost when it
would have been much more feasible and less expensive to extend existing subway lines that are already in the vincinity and that
provide a one-seat/one-fare ride to Manhattan. Ummm, yeah, AirTrain makes perfect sense, I guess..."
If you're going to debate this with me you had better have your facts straight: MTA costs for subway building are at least $350 million per mile these days; AirTrain costs $200 million per mile. There are others on the site who have put MTA's costs of underground building at close to $1 billion per mile. Whether or not I agree with them, I think you can sense the drift here...
Extending the subway is not all that simple: AirTrain's Howard Beach and airport circulator legs cost $900 million, which is at least what the Transit Authority and PA would have had to spend to bring the A train into the airport and get people into the terminals.
And as far as compatibility, well, you're right about it being political. But do we really know whether it's the PA keeping the MTA off its property or the other way around? After all, MTA does have a ROW and chose not to use it. You certainly don't know, but you feel comfortable repeating rumors and "sound bites" of dubious origin as if they were fact. Let the politicians do that; you can do much better.
"Somebody else on this thread correctly pointed out the irony of the PA extending "their own"
subway to Newark while JFK gets a bloated train-to-another-train and LaGuardia continues to be soley dependent on highway
access."
And somebody else has conveniently ignored (that's you Dave!) the fact that the PATH extension to EWR (at $700 million) and the original AirTrain proposal (at $5.6 billion, which didn't happen) aren't comparable projects.
Even if New York "got screwed" with it, the train to Newark Airport is still a good idea. Of course, when you nitpick like that, you lose the forest for the trees.
As far as La Guardia goes, City Council speaker Peter Vallone had a lot more to do with the N train not going to the airport than the PA did. The details are long but there are options available that are acceptable to the PA; we'll see if they come to pass.
Chicago? Well, to be fair, I have heard complaints that the line to Midway is not optimally arranged. That may be, but since I don't know the history of the line's construction I will not offer an opinion about that (unlike what you did in your post). I will congratulate the City of Chicago for supporting airport mass transit - however it was accomplished.
I guess AirTrain would be much easier for me to swallow if, instead of trying to build a whole new railroad as I understand they seem to be doing, they simply built an automated people-mover system that would start at Howard Beach, make stops at each of the terminals, and then terminate at Jamaica. Transfers to the subway and LIRR at each end would ideally be as painless as possible with a minimum of stairs or escalators, there would be no charge to ride the people-mover, and the trains had short enough headways.
Of course, in a perfect world, AirTrain would continue all the way to Mahattan and on to LaGuardia, providing a high-speed, non-stop ride to/from the WTC and Midtown, but I suspect we won't see anything like that until after a full Second Avenue subway is completed and we see our first Cubs vs. Yankees World Series.
But based on the admittedly limited knowledge I have, AirTrain looks to me like an overpriced, over-engineered boondoggle when they could have either extended the subway or simply used existing technology to build a people-mover similar to what O'Hare uses between its terminals.
Chicago? Well, to be fair, I have heard complaints that the line to Midway is not optimally arranged.
Yes, I was the one who pointed out here on SubTalk in an earlier posting that the connection between Midway and the Orange Line was very awkward, but at least there's a connection.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"I guess AirTrain would be much easier for me to swallow if, instead of trying to build a whole new railroad as I understand they
seem to be doing, they simply built an automated people-mover system that would start at Howard Beach, make stops at each
of the terminals, and then terminate at Jamaica."
That is, in effect, what they're doing.
" Transfers to the subway and LIRR at each end would ideally be as painless as possible with a minimum of stairs or escalators, there would be no charge to ride the people-mover, and the trains had short
enough headways."
To be painless you need elevators, not just escalators, and AirTrain has elevators with wide doors for people and luggage, along with a climate-controlled walkway with (I'm told by the PA) moving sidewalks to get to the train platform. Terminal 4 has a station built into the terminal itself. Of course, with ADA requirements you'd need some of that anyway. The cost of building an above-ground station is at least $5-10 million per station, and AirTrain is going to have (if I recall correctly) at least eight of them, not even counting Howard Beach or Jamaica. For comparison, underground stations can run $30 million or more. The Coney Island subway terminal, above-ground, will cost $200 million to rebuild. (Main Street Flushing on the 7 line cost $30 million to rebuild, and turning Howard Beach into a fully ADA-compliant station will cost $75 million). One heavy-duty station escalator can cost $1 million.
How do these station-building costs compare with Chicago's? How much did it cost to build one new subway station on the line to Midway Airport?
We'll see if people are happy with the headways...
It would be nice if you could ride it free, I agree. But the operating money would have to come from somewhere. Suggestions?
Well, the ultimate in painlessness would be a cross-platform transfer or maybe one level change at the most. But I have no idea how the Howard Beach and Jamaica stations are configured, so I wouldn't know how feasible those options would be even if money were no object.
How do these station-building costs compare with Chicago's? How much did it cost to build one new subway station on the line to Midway Airport?
The station at Midway is the terminal of an entirely new line from downtown to the airport. I have no idea how much it cost to build, but some of the other Chicagoans here on SubTalk may be able to provide that information.
It would be nice if you could ride it free, I agree. But the operating money would have to come from somewhere. Suggestions?
I did some reading on AirTrain's website, and it looks like the ride is free if you're simply going between the terminals, but that a fare would be charged if you're going to/from either of the subway stations. They didn't say what the fare would be, but they did say they would accept MetroCards. I guess that's a reasonable solution; I was originally under the impression that passengers would have to pay a fare just to get from one terminal to another, which would be highway robbery.
-- David
Chicago, IL
...it looks like the ride is free if you're simply going between the terminals, but that a fare would be charged if you're going to/from either of the subway stations.
Yes, that's correct - and the fare will be a ripoff $5.00, unlike the currently free shuttle bus to the Howard Beach station. That (among other things) is what has most of us so perturbed - taking a currently free service and slapping a big hefty charge onto it. Going to see Grandma off at the terminal? Add an extra $10 per person round trip. All that will do is guarantee that more people drive to the airport.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Assuming the fare really is five bucks, I totally agree with you on that. $1.50 or therabouts might be a reasonable fare, but $5 seems off the deep end. Just out of curiousity, how does $26 for two people to see grandma off at JFK ($5 each way on AirTrain plus $1.50 each way on the subway, times two people) compare to, say, two hours of parking at the airport or even taking a cab? It seems like the logical thing would be to price AirTrain so that it makes an attractive alternative to driving.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Do you know for a fact that the Howard Beach leg will cost $5? Doesn't it seem strange to you to complain before you know for sure?
Do you know for a fact that the Howard Beach leg will cost $5? Doesn't it seem strange to you to complain before you know for sure?
Go back and read what I said:
"ASSUMING the fare really is five bucks, I totally agree with you on that."
The operative word, of course, being "assuming." Nowhere did I state that I knew the fare would be five bucks, but that seems to be the figure I've seen tossed around here on SubTalk on a number of occasions.
Your shrill tone and constant nit-picking are wearing thin. Doesn't it seem strange to you to start a pissing contest before you've correctly read what I'm saying?
-- David
Chicago, IL
"ASSUMING the fare really is five bucks, I totally agree with you on that."
OK, fair enough (fare enough?). I take it back.
"Your shrill tone and constant nit-picking are wearing thin. Doesn't it seem strange to you to start a pissing contest before you've
correctly read what I'm saying?"
Let he who hath no nitpick cast the first stone (I don't think you qualify under that definition.). See our debate about AirTrain vs, Chicago's Midway, for example.
But fair is fair. I will agree not to nitpick; and you will agree not to nitpick. OK?
At this point the Port Authority's web site for Airtrain service information -- Airtrain/Service -- contains no information about the fare to Howard Beach or Jamaica. It only says terminal-to-terminal use of the system will be free and that Metrocards can be used for fare payment on other parts of the system.
Even if they wanted to, I doubt the PA would have the guts to install an Airtrain fare 3 1/3 times the subway fare, even if they wanted to, and especially if they follow through with the PATH extension plan.
I would expect the fare will probably end up being the same as whatever the subway fare is, and that in that case, NYS will demand any new PATH extension to Newark Airport carry the same double fare cost (similar to the old Rockaways double fare), to keep Newark from having an cost advantage from Manhattan. And the state would have a good case, especially if PATH's operating budget shortfall from fare collections alone remains below that of the NYC subway system.
One important thing to remember is that Bombardier has a contract to not only build, but to run, the system and maintain it. This is much different than the car-buying contracts Bombardier signs with the Transit Authority. Thus, Bombardier would have tried to negotiate a contract which the company believes would return it a profit on an ongoing (operational) basis.
Bombardier may operate it, but they'll be in the same situation as the Interboro Rapid Transit Co or the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co. where when they signed their contracts with the city at the start of the last century. The company will obviously try to run a profit, but the politicians through the Port Authority will have the final say on whatever the fare is.
Although the PA at times tends to have a "public be damned" attitude about fares and tolls, given the choice between allowing Bombardier a profit after the initial fare is set or responding to public outcry by either lowering the fare in the future (if there is a lack of customers) or blocking a future fare hike (due to public protest), I'm betting Bombardier ends up getting shaft, unless they have some kind of guarentee against loss in the agreement (which would probably warrant some sort of investigation if it were true).
"Bombardier may operate it, but they'll be in the same situation as the Interboro Rapid Transit Co or the Brooklyn Rapid Transit
Co. where when they signed their contracts with the city at the start of the last century. The company will obviously try to run a
profit, but the politicians through the Port Authority will have the final say on whatever the fare is."
That's a reasonable comparison. Without seeing the contract language, it's hard to tell for sure how the agreement will be implemented.
"I'm betting Bombardier ends up getting shaft, unless
they have some kind of guarentee against loss in the agreement (which would probably warrant some sort of investigation if it
were true)."
Bombardier, like any other private contractor, would expect, and is entitled to a reasonable contract wherein the conditions do not radically and capriciously change over time and the company would be able to forecast resources needed to operate the system. This is a risk which one often incurs when dealing with governmental authorities - and if losses occur because of it, a "stop loss" provision would not be unreasonable at all. On the other hand, the PA is entitled to the services of a contractor who honestly and ethically operates AirTrain, abides by contractual obligations, and, hopefully, complies with the spirit as well as the letter of the agreement.
Should AirTrain prove to be a resounding success operationally (distinct from construction) for Bombardier, this would be in their favor because the company wants to market transit operations services to other cities - and there's nothing like a good track record to win customers.
[Thus, Bombardier would have tried to negotiate a contract which the company believes would return it a profit on an ongoing (operational) basis. ]
But this has nothing to do with fare.
Similar examples HBLR, private bus companies.
Arti
Why should there even be a double fare to the airport? NYC went to a flat-fare subway-system-wide scheme decades ago and more recently rolled buses into the flat fare.
I'd have nothing in principle against distance-based fares (in principle -- I don't know how exit swiping could be implemented without slowing things down to a crawl) -- personally, I'd benefit enormously as my rides are shorter than average -- but why should it cost $1.50 to go from the north Bronx to Far Rockaway but $3.00 (or $6.50) to go from East New York to JFK?
(And please, don't give me that nonsense about airline passengers already paying a lot for tickets, so a few dollars won't make a difference. Not everyone riding to JFK is an airline passenger, for some airline passengers every dollar does make a difference, and the same logic could be applied to subway service to Carnegie Hall and Shea Stadium.)
I'm not saying it should be done, I'm saying when the city and state look at the difference between a $1.50 one-seat ride from Manhattan to Newark Airport and a $3.00, two-seat ride from Manhattan to JFK -- and if the PATH fare recovery ratio for system operations is still below the MTA's rate for their subway -- then the city and state will demand a more even fare structure that doesn't have PA funds subsidizing a cheaper fare to Newark.
Instead of all you guys complaining about a ripoff which you don't know will happen, why doesn't one of you write to the PA and ask what exactly the fare will be? Will the Howard Beach leg have a fare (maybe not)? You can even complain on the same piece of paper.
Actually, you can even complain by submitting email through the PA's site.
Ron, the $5 fare is what has widely been reported in the media, with no contradiction as far as I know by the PA (in fact, I think they may have been the ones who originally stated that figure).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are they saying that fare would apply to Howard Beach as well? I've heard rumors (but I didn't want to promulgate them as fact because I don't know for a fact) that the Howard Beach leg will be free.
My impression is that those passengers who don't mind jumping the fence between the Howard Beach station and the JFK parking lot will have a free ride. The bit of el over the fence must have been awfully expensive to build!
"Ron, try compairing subway to subway here, not subway to passenger rail, which is what the Port Authority is trying to do. If
the PA had built the Airtrain to IND/BMT specs in the first place there could be a one-seat ride to Manhattan, just as there will
be to Newark Airport if the PATH plan is approved."
True and so what? On Subtalk, you can ignore political realities and throw rocks at anybody's plan. You can create your own one-seat fantasy ride to any terminal at the airport and ignore anybody who might prevent you (for good or bad reasons) from doing so. Move your plan to City Hall, the State Legislature, and other real-life venues, and then wonder why things start to break down. I agree it's not always fair. Personally, I think extending a branch of the Archer Avenue tunnel down the Van Wyck Expressway to reach JFK and an inter-terminal circulator would have been a neat idea, but the MTA isn't going to do it.
"God didn't split the clouds and send down stone tablets telling the PA they had to build a completly incompatiable rail line with
the subway (or LIRR for that matter) -- they did it on their own to keep the city and the MTA out of their precious airports"
God didn't, but maybe the MTA did. Maybe it's MTA who wants to keep a PA system "out of its precious subway." I don't know that for a fact, but considering the type of politics I have witnessed at the agency, it's not implausible. You're repeating a lot of elitist PA-bashing rumors of dubious origin which frequently make the rounds. I'm not saying you're totally wrong - only that you're repeating a rather trite phrase which has been making the rounds since forever, without illuminating the actual relationship between the two agencies. MTA had that one-track ROW from Howard Beach into the airport, and never used it - in fact rejected suggestions to use it. Why? One reason is the MTA doesn't like a lot of physical branches (switches, extra signals, etc.) on its lines, and there are some in the agency who believe that the 8th Av-Fulton St line has too many as it is. You and I may or may not agree with that, but there it is. Are there other reasons? You bet - but I don't know what they are, and judging from your post, you don't either.
So if the PA were to suggest running their AirTrain route into the E's tunnel at Archer Av, how much cooperation would you expect the MTA to offer, especially if the PA's plan did not cover the MTA's costs of adjusting the subway system's operations for this?
As it is, the PA is providing $100 million out of the $387 million needed to rebuild Jamaica Station. And they are building a train which will stay out of MTA's way and eliminates the need (for now) to integrate the rail operations of two agencies - a difficult task at best.
"while in New Jersey, apparently it's OK if their subway line goes to their other airport (and BTW, what happened to all those
airline protests about running a regular mass transit line to the airports?)"
You missed that point completely. The airline protests weren't about the type of trains used. The protests were about the use of transfer-tax (PFT) money to fund any kind of transit development to the airport. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the FAA's funding decision, and that issue is now history.
"The PA is using that $5.6 billion number based on a plan that they would build a brand new line all the way into Manhattan with
an Penn Station or Grand Central connection -- in other words, they're funding for a Mercedes when a Ford or Chevy would
do."
Correct - and they realized they couldn't accomplish it, so they scaled it back. Good for them.
"But in New Jersey, they've come to their senses and decided that a `discount' link to the airport isn't such a bad idea after
all. "
Correct again - at $700 million, it's relatively affordable - and I'm glad they're pursuing it.
AirTrain is not the perfect solution. But this is New York, where everybody with a mouth thinks his/her opinion is the only one - so you can understand why it's difficult to accomplish anything. The PA has accomplished something here, and decided to take the opportunity to showcase some new technology as well. There was no realistic alternative, since the MTA evidently had a mandate to do nothing - and did nothing. And would continue to do nothing. That's political, not technical.
I'm not going to quibble with it. I'm looking forward to using AirTrain.
(On Subtalk, you can ignore political realities and throw rocks at anybody's plan. You can create your own one-seat fantasy ride to any terminal at the airport and ignore anybody who might prevent you (for good or bad reasons) from doing so. Move your plan to City Hall, the
State Legislature, and other real-life venues, and then wonder why things start to break down. I agree it's not always fair.)
Part of the political reality is the assumption that those in NYC are expected to pay more, and get less. Some of us are tired of that reality. Some of us believe it is a false reality.
Ron, I worked for the Port Authority, and not even people I know there (the bureaucrats not the politicians) will defend the way New York got ripped off after 1990. If Giliani didn't scream like a two-year-old we'd still be getting ripped off.
No thanks to NJ that the Airtrain is being built. And again, if they wanted to, the PA could come out and announce that they'll build the whole plan they promised when they imposed the PFC, up to Flushing, on to LaGuardia, then down the BQE and rail corridor to Queens Plaza. They can skip the Manhattan part; I'll take the F to Queens Plaza and pick it up if it's frequent enough -- and priced the same as the PATH.
I can understand your frustration. I don't disagree with a lot of what you've written.
But New Jersey isn't floating into the ocean anytime soon (that's bad, right?) :0)
I think tat MATT had quite good points, why SS can't serve the airports.
What's with the infatuation with the 1 seat ride???
Arti
"What's with the infatuation with the 1 seat ride???"
I think the one-seat ride theme was more of a convenient slogan for folks who had hoped to derail the AirTrain project, or for Committee for Better Transit, who show up at public hearings and ask for the cancellation of any project they didn't invent...
>>What's with the infatuation with the 1 seat ride??? <<
for starters, most 'civilians' prefer same in all transport situations. Ask yourself about change planes in ...versus non-stop. Someone at UC Berkeley went out and interviewed both transit users and non for a thesis. He got the following preference one seat at half speed over change at double by vast majority. Now, I grant, in NY, and to a lesser extent in Chgo & Philly, there are enough "percieved" advantages to 'expresses' that many riders change trains for speed of trip. 'Course these are two STANDEE rides. BTW a common behaviour in SF on BART is to backtrack from the Montgomery Station toward he Mission in search of A seat for longer trips to the suburbs.
(If Airtrain was hooked up to the A train at Howard Beach and to the
E train at Parsons/Jamaica, the tracks into the rest of Queens and to Brooklyn and Manhattan would already be in place, and wouldn't cost $5.6 billion. The Howard Beach link would have only required a flying junction, while the ramp down to the tunnel for the E would have been a little more costly.)
Geez, with the 63rd Street tunnel in place they could have run a loop, Queens Express, 8th Avenue Express, Fulton Street Express, every 10 minutes in each direction. Didn't think of that one.
Engineering-wise, that is a nice idea. But the only place we can get that to work, unfortunately, is Subtalk. That's why AirTrain was necessary in the real world.
Let's assume PA takes over...
PA buys/aquires the Atlantic Av LIRR, tunnels from WTC to LI and viola there's a system connecting all the area airports and in doing so:
1. Competition to MTA
2. Competition yo Amtrac
Arti
Good joke there. The tunnel would cost $3 billion, and the city is not about to allow a competitor to buy one of its lines.
You forget that while PATH can be extended to Newark Airport for far less than a billion dollars, the original quoted price for a complete AirTrain to Manhattan was $5.6 billion. The line under construction now costs $1.5 billion.
And how much would it have cost to extend the A train directly to JFK? (Hint: a lot less than the $1.5 billion that's being spent now.)
Connecting PATH to Newark Airport makes plenty of sense. If it happens, watch how fast the shuttle flights leave LGA for Newark. The user base for these flights is business travelers, who come from the two areas the PATH serves: Midtown and the Finacial District.
Unless the city acts on extending the N, and gets it done faster. But for the next 20 years or so, it doesn't really matter.
-Hank
A lengthy article by Al Frank in Thursday's Star-Ledger discusses PATH's growing interest in extending from Newark Penn Station to the airport
Seems sort of redundant, what with the upcoming monorail extension and new NE Corridor station.
It's not redundant at all. Don't forget that patrons who use PATH in Hoboken and Jersey City must first reach a commuter rail station connected to the main line before they reach the airport. In addition, this is an opportunity to add an additional subway station or two to the PATH system besides the airport terminal.
Seems sort of redundant, what with the upcoming monorail extension and new NE Corridor station.
This is addressed in the article.
First: it is felt that use of EWR and monorail are increasing so rapidly that the latter will be strained in a few years.
Second: throwing train passengers onto the monorail would cause acute congestion.
It's not redundant the two lines would serve two purposes. The PATH train would provide cheap, one-seat, mass access to NYC. The NEC connection would provide direct airport access for people from Mid-Jersey (or point even more south) and possible Amtrak connections (maybe instead of a Newark stop. Furthermore PATH is PISS-ASS-SLOW, especially if you need to get to 33rd St. NJT trains are faster and more equipped to handle luggage. Would would also be better for the bussiness class traveler who is above riding the subway.
The big problem is going to be when all these new stations and connections open. NJT NEC Line trains are going to be stuffed beyond capacity with the Secaucas connection, Airport connection, Aldene Plan Extention trains (ie Trenton Line) and the possible Morrisville extention. This dosen't even take into consideration the exponential growth that's occuring in Mid-Jersey.
The PATH tubes are also reaching capacity with the demise of the hudson ferry service and increased service into Hoboken Terminal.
> demise of the hudson ferry service
I don't know which Hudson you're talking about but there are quite a few ferries out there. Visit nywaterway.com.
-Dave
The ones that used to Ferry MOST of the EL passengers to Midtown.
The Hoboken Terminal still has seven or eight ferry slips that haven't been used in decades. All of the wood and a lot of the metal is seriously decaying, but it still could be restored. NJT would have to give up some of its office and storage space that used to be the corridors to the ferry.
Yes, it would make a LOT of sense for them to renovate the slips, buy some new two-level ferries, and have express ferry service to Javits Center, 14th, Battery Park, South Street Seaport, maybe even Weehawken. Currently from Hoboken you can only get to World Financial Center and various points in Jersey City.
Great analysis. You've hit it 100%.
Aldene Plan Extention trains (ie Trenton Line) and the possible Morrisville extention.
What are these? I assume the first one is an extension of the RVL, but what about the second one?
FYI: EWR is the proper abbreviation for Newark International Airport, just FYI.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I've been wondering lately whether a direct Jamaica to Newark Airport Service using LIRR dual modes (the third rail extends just west of the tunnel portal in Secaucus -- you could go diesel in NJ) might be a useful connection. The trip would probably take about 45 minutes, and with the monorail connections you could go from a terminal at Newark to a terminal at JFK in about an hour -- depending on the frequency of LIRR service. More frequent LIRR service might also be warranted if the AirTrain was extended north from Jamaica to LGA.
I'd love to have a choice between EWR and JFK for my long flights.
That's a nice idea. A lot of political ground work would have to be accomplished first, though.
Am I dreaming, or will the MBTA actually get their wish and be able to run the type 8s on the "B" line starting on or around May 1st? If so, any chance they'll run on other lines too? -Nick
No, they got them back today! From what I have read on NE.Transportation 3822 and 3814 are back they must have finished the track work early.
Interesting! Thanks for the tip! I guess the inspector to whom I spoke was a bit behind. I'll keep an eye out for them tomorrow.
Hot damn...time to do some railfanning!! -Nick
A Green Line Inspector with whom I spoke the other day said they will begin appearing on the B/Boston College line shortly (though no date has been set). There are only limited operators who have been qualified on them (since they have been off the road since last summer), so there must be more training.
Other lines will come only after the track modifications made (new guard rails, etc.) prove they prevent derailments, and then deliveries/acceptances can continue.
I Don't Think the MBTA Will run the Type 8's yet.
THEY ARE BACK NOW I CAN RAILFAN TOMORROW!
No service tommorrow due to the derailment. The Capitol Limited trains and slow frieght is able to pass teh accident scene on one track. For full details, see my earlier post. Service will resume on Monday, April 30.
For the first time in many years, I rode the J/Z (the Z, specifically) yesterday from Manhattan to Jamaica, and it's at least as interesting as I remembered. A few comments:
Surprise! The train was pretty crowded -- standing room only, at least in the lead car.
The old trolley terminal at Essex was well lit. I could make out one of the trolley tracks. Once across the bridge, we ran express from Marcy to Myrtle, local (all stops) from Myrtle to Eastern Parkway, and skip-stop from there.
The section from Eastern Parkway to the curve is most interesting. The structure is wide enough for three tracks, but the platforms are island platforms, where the center track would go. All of the stations appear to have received moderate upgrades in (probably) the 70's, with colorful arrow displays pointing towards the exits.
Then, between the curve to the left and the curve to the right, the center track makes a brief reappearance. It doesn't serve much of a purpose there, as it doesn't bypass any stations -- but an out-of-service train from Jamaica passed my train on the center track! I have no idea why.
From this point to the dip underground, a center track could easily be installed. In fact, there is evidence that one once existed. If one were reinstalled and the existing express track were used to its fullest extent, I could easily see Jamaica-bound passengers abandoning the E.
In fact, there is evidence that one once existed. If one were reinstalled...
It never existed. The line was built hastily because of demand in 1918 and the middle track was never installed.
The problem always was connecting it to Eastern Parkway.
However there are rail supports in the concrete structure over woodhaven, holes in the crossbeams for the rivets and brackets that would support the stringers.
It's also a good way of knowing at 127th Street where the original crossbeams end and the 1988 ones begin.
It never existed. The line was built hastily because of demand in 1918 and the middle track was never installed.
At least in 1918, the hastily built line without an express track was built with space for an express track. It's too bad the latest proposal for today's (if we're really really lucky) hastily built line has no such provision.
The problem always was connecting it to Eastern Parkway.
A problem which would be largely alleviated by moving the platforms en route to the side, out of the path of the express track.
A problem which would be largely alleviated by moving the platforms en route to the side, out of the path of the express track.
Unlike Broadway, where such a thing was done, Fulton Street is narrower and there isn't always room for those side platforms.
Solution: Build a new line over Jamaica Avenue, demolish Fulton. This has the added advantage of being able to combine the Crescent Street and Cypress Hills stations into one station.
The stations on Broadway originally had island platforms?
Is there room at some stations for side platforms? The others could be closed, or the express track could fly over the existing island platforms.
Along Broadway: Marcy must have had side platforms originally because the Jamaica bound side in my memory had a pretty old station; the city-bound side burned and was replaced with a more modern one...in the early 50's????? I don't know about the rest but the remainder of the stations along Broadway aren't original..they're about 1915-16 just like the Jamaica Ave stations.
I hate to be critical of the ancient structure as I like it but I wonder if the el along Fulton could handle a 3rd track if there were once, let's say 3 trains passing at one time...maybe it could.
The center track between Crescent and Cypress Hills as I remember it was only a turnback for some trains that terminated at Crescent or could have been used for a layup...I'm almost positive it ended in a bumping block. Just like 111 St.
Imagine non stop from the Archer subway to Woodhaven Blvd, then express again to [where?] Again I like the antique structure on Fulton but those slow curves between Cypress Hills-Crescent and again at Alabama are the line's achilles heel. If that were cured the line would be a very attractive alternative [along with third track] to the Queens Blvd. service.and a cheap way of adding capacity.
I don't know why everyone harps on the sharp curves. Sure, they're sharp, and trains have to slow down for them. But lots of lines have sharp curves -- the N/R at City Hall, the 2/3 on either side of Park Place, the 5 merging with the 2, etc. The curve on the J adds maybe a minute or two to the total running time -- and, sure, it reduces the capacity of the entire line, but somehow I don't think that's a major concern right now.
Oh well, its part of the character of the el for so many years guess it wouldn't matter much. As you say 2 minutes...but please.... The N/R..that's sacrilege...too much slow motion Pacific-Canal as I remember it.
Most of the Fulton St. el portion is much too narrow for a third track, let alone side platforms of any safe width.
As for the train going through the center track between Cresent and Cypress, it is done from time to time to act as a rail polisher. A build up of rust on the rails may cause a train to go into emergency. With rust build up, the signal system will think there is no train on the circuit and cause the trippers to go into tripping position and stop the train. East New York master tower brings light trains through there to prevent the build up. Hey, does anybody out there know of a photograph that exists of old Cresent St. tower?
I thought of that myself. But why not just abandon the track? It can't serve much of a purpose as it is. I don't think it's even long enough to store a train.
Do trains in passenger service ever take divergent routings for no particular reason other than to polish a rail? For instance, do in-service J trains ever use the center track there? Or do in-service weekend D trains ever use the express track south of Sheepshead Bay?
I don't think they are allowed to bring a road train in there unless otherwise told. I don't know if you remember but it used to be a stub end track with an entrance only toward Crescent St. A train does just fit in here but it is tight. If a train lays down they could put it in there. If service terminated at Crescent St., like during a general order, they could relay service there. Many moons ago they would lay up a train there overnight also.
Trains Magazine online (click on headline or scroll down to story) reports additional delays "caused by the need to resolve electrical problems and remove newly discovered asbestos and lead from the French-built trains, which are being rebuilt at Super Steel in Schenectady, N.Y. In addition, Super Steel is seeking more money to perform the work, which was not part of the original contract."
"Newly discovered"??? Yeah, they didn't find it when they tore the things apart and rebuilt them the first time? Geez...
Sounds like Super Steel is running out of stuff to keep busy....
On tonight's WGN news, they led with a story about a grade crossing accident out in the 'burbs. A railfan was videotaping an Illinois Central frieght train as it was passing through a busy grade crossing. A large semi tractor-trailer truck crossed the tracks in clear violation of the warning lights, and got stuck in traffic with about 5 feet of his trailer hanging over the tracks. Meanwhile, the engineer of the train is leaning on his horn.
The street and the tracks appeared to be on a sharp angle with each other, so the truck was essentially rear-ended by the train. The brunt of the impact was fortunately absorbed by the trailer, but still managed to toss this huge truck at least 25-30 feet forward into the traffic in front of it. The chain reaction involved several vehicles, and tossed a small car on top of a minivan. Miraculously, there were only five minor injuries. The truck driver has been cited for disobeying the crossing signals.
I looked on WGN's website for a web version of the video so I could put a link to it here, but had no luck. It's quite an amazing video; the physics of such an impact are simply staggering.
Moral of the story: In the conflict between a frieght train and even the largest highway vehicles, the freight train always wins.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Not so staggering ... the natural law is THE TRAIN ALWAYS WINS. :)
I guess it's not the fact that the train won that I found so staggering -- we all know the train always wins -- but the margin of victory was what I found most impressive. The fact that the train appeared to be going only 20-25 MPH and still managed to toss a large tractor-trailer rig that distance was quite a sight.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Here's hoping that footage gets shown far and wide so people can realize how much of a chance their invincible little toy SUV has in a similar situation. You'd think there had already been enough demonstrations but apparently Darwin is STILL a flagman at many crossings. :)
It is being shown far and wide. It was on a Philly local news telecast this morning. My wife wondered why the train didn't stop.
Heh. Sure ... ya just step on the brake and it stops on a dime. Unfortunately, the dime is 6 miles down the track. :)
Is it not amazing how folks think that a train weighing hundreds of tons can stop on a dime? I bet they think it can swerve to avoid them as well. The operative word here is CLUELESS. That explains many of those who run around crossing gates, and I saw pedestrians do this at a grade crossing on the LIRR. I was watching from the railfan window while my train was stopped at New Hyde Park station, and the idiots ran out in front of a train coming in the opposite direction! I looked at the train operator and he just rolled his eyes. He sees this craziness every day. What next?
I tried to explain to my wife that trains can't stop on a dime. I mentioned the Metroliner (Penn Central) that uncoupled between the 4th and 5th cars at speed. The first 4 cars went 5 miles before stopping; the last 2 went 3 miles.
Wow! That must have been some ride (in the movies, it would have been Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson or Keanu Reeves who leaps into the engineer's cab and sets the brakes - with Sandra Bullock gazing adoringly at him, of course).
"Is it not amazing how folks think that a train weighing hundreds of tons can stop on a dime? "
One good reason is momentum. All those freight cars loaded or not, that tonnage considered, make it impossible to stop with that horizontal motion. Try to invision 10 cars bumper to bumper and the lead car slams on the brakes. He won't stop with all the weight of the other cars pushing forward.
However, that would be on pavement. As far as the freight train, that's on steel rails, so the locked wheels slide forward. I bethca when that train started up after the accident there was a chorus of flat wheels.
Bill "Newkirk"
Manufacturers of truing machines should encourage all engineers to make an emergency stop at least once a week - good for business! :-)
Violating an active railroad line at a crossing gate which is down and flashing red is so egregious a violation that I am strongly tempted to advocate that the penalty should be the revocation of a commercial driver's license (truck, bus) for at least ten years for that sort of thing - and the revocation should go into a national database so such a driver cannot get a license in another state.
(assuming the driver is caught doing so, and there is no train collision, or that he/she survives the collision and wishes to resume a driving career).
And what about all the automobiles and people in front of this neanderthal who had their cars or bodies smashed? I'm sorry, but this is why we need trial lawyers. For all the damage this guy caused, he should have his bank accounts depleted and his house taken away, not to mention his license. If somebody got killed, as happened in the incident a while ago with the "City of New Orleans," he should be jailed for manslaughter, at least. I can't believe that guy isn't in prison. If what you say happened in the video is true, it should be taken to every trucking convention and shown on a big, wide screen. These truckers get all the government freight-hauling subsidy and it seems they still find new ways to f**k with trains! Among other lovely contributions, these s**tbirds leave tire-treads in the middle of the road (safety hazzard) and belch gobs of fossil-fuel residue into the air every day. There are no catalytic converters in trucks. Trains are both physically and environmentally safer. I say get that tunnel built between S.I. and Bay Ridge as soon as possible!
Thush endeth this tirade, A.D. 2001. Amen.
Since I'm familiar with the crossing in question (a few miles from where I live), I thought I'd add some insights.
The truck was traveling on North Ave. (IL Hwy. 64), a very heavily trafficed truck route. The Illinois Central RR crosses North Ave. there at a very shallow angle (maybe 30 deg.). From my view of the video, it appears that the truck may not have violated the lights/gates -- he may well have started across the tracks before the train approached. The trucker's mistake (and violation of the law) apparently was not making sure that there was room for him to clear the tracks before starting across.
Note - this type of violation/mistake was also the cause of the tragic commuter train vs. school bus accident in the Chicago area five or six years ago.
-- Ed Sachs
We have that same problem here in New York City. Impatient motorists will pull into an intersection or on top of a crosswalk when there is no room on the other side. The light changes. Pedestrians as well as traffic are blocked in the "go" direction. Gridlock ensues.
These idiots are too stupid to realize that gridlock holds them up too, and that they are actually slowing themselves down.
Or, here's another thing. As soon as the !@#$%^&* light turns green, the people 8 cars back start honking because the line does not begin to move immediately. Well, a$$holes, this is New York City. We have pedestrians here. If car #1 at the intersection is making a turn, he can't run over the pedestrians who are legally crossing with the light. I wish I had my own bazooka when this happens. I'd aim it right at the offending car-horn. Hopefully my aim isn't a little off...
Okay, I guess I'm in a cranky mood today. TGIF.
TGIF to you, too, Pete.
The first time I drove in Manhattan (perhaps 1964), I was amazed that when I was first in line at a red light (with a Jersey license plate), the car behind started blowing its horn when the light on the cross street turned yellow.
HA! Try stopping at an intersection because there's a city bus blocking 3 of 4 total lanes. So I stop clear of the intersection, especially since I can't see the traffic on the other side of the bus. Asshole behind me in the rice burner (the stereotypical one, with the cut springs and stupid paint) goes around me, and the bus, giving me the finger and blowing the horn as he goes. A block further up, he's pulled over on the side of the road, an SUV immediately behind, both drivers staring at the left side of the ricer, and the right front corner of the SUV banged up. I feel sorry for the SUV guy, but VICTORY IS MINE!The other situation is when you're directly behind a large vehicle, and you can't see the signal, but the guy behind you can, and punches the horn because the truck ahead of you isn't moving fast enough.
And 17-y-o kids don't deserve licenses, based on Thursday's experience in traffic court. Kid had his father representing him for MULTIPLE speeding tickets, including one that dad didn't seem to know about, because little boy's license had been suspended for failure to answer. The look daddy shot him is the kind of look the parent of a lousy student gives his kid on parent-teacher night. (I know the look well).
I get my new car later today. :)
-Hank
If that's true, then perhaps adjustments to that roadway might be in order, as well as increasing the warning distance. Perhaps the gates could come down and close the intersection 45 seconds prior to train arrival - to give traffic ahead more time to clear (if indeed that is relevant to that intersection).
I'd still be tempted to yank that guy's license.
If the gates came down 45 sec prior to the train, it would only encourge idiots to drive around the gates to beat the train.
In heavy traffic, it's the driver's responsiblity to make sure that he/she has room to clear the crossing before starting over it. You can't count on being able to get off once the lights start flashing. The traffic just might not move.
-- Ed Sachs
"If the gates came down 45 sec prior to the train, it would only encourge idiots to drive around the gates to beat the train."
You have a point there. Adaptation of Newton's Law: For every safety-minded action a railroad wants to take, there is an equal and opposite reaction from someone who cares not for his own (or other peoples') life.
Not so staggering ... the natural law is THE TRAIN ALWAYS WINS. :)
No, BOATS always win (not the kind on trailers). At a train/boat grade crossing (ie a movable bridge) if there is a conflict the train will end up going "sploosh". Same w/ cars vs. boats.
Picky picky picky. Heh. Of course, if the train DOES go over the side and the boat's under the bridge, the train wins again. :)
That depends on the size of the boat. The train could just end up making an unexcpected intermodal connection :)
Heh. Submarines is a mode of transport too as long as you've got air. As an aside, there's tracks that run into Lake George (used to be used for boat launches) so all things are possible.
Since large cars win in a collision with small cars, everyone should drive large cars.
Since SUVs win in a collision with large cars, everyone should drive SUVs.
Since tractor-trailers win in a collision with SUVs, everyone should drive tractor-trailers.
Since trains win in a collision with tractor-trailers, everyone should ride trains.
How about that! Logic arrives at the correct conclusion!
I just caught the Incident on Channel 8 (Ct.) News. The results were as predictable as any Columbo episode.
Wow ... they FINALLY showed the footage here locally on our N-Biscuit affiliate (WNYT-13) of the whackjob. Wow. The ANGLE from the cab had to be extremely frightening. From their perspective this thing was coming at their cab like a shifted load of pipe on a flatcar. That was a VERY steep angle from the out front view.
And the worst of it for the UTU and BLE brothers there was that all they knew was they were going to have whatever was in that trailer coming through the cab (great unknowns are always maximum brown alert). For all they probably knew, it could have been packed with anything from bags of rocks to stacks of pipe. That's one cab I wouldn't have wanted to be in and the way the trailer turned around, if there WERE any pipe or 2 by 4's in there, it would have torn through the cab like a gigantic lever.
Then to add to the horror show, there was a signal on the left (out tha cab window) behind the truck that was guaranteed to pivot the trailer like a scoop. Man oh man. I am *glad* I wasn't in that lead unit. Wow ... dunno if anyone looked at that wreck from the BLE guy's perspective, but I imagine he won't get over the shakes for a VERY long time. Same for his UTU cabmate ... Wow.
True to form, our NBC affiliate here in Chicago follows the old TV news adage, "If it bleeds, it leads."
Click the link below before it expires. Once the page opens up, click on the little icon below the caption that says "WATCH THIS STORY" and follow the instructions from there.
WMAQ-TV: Train-truck accident in Villa Park
Looks like the train was going a bit faster than the 20-25 MPH I originally estimated in another posting. The force of the impact is pretty amazing. Hard to beleive that this wreck only resulted in five minor injuries.
Wow ... dunno if anyone looked at that wreck from the BLE guy's perspective, but I imagine he won't get over the shakes for a VERY long time. Same for his UTU cabmate ... Wow.
You're certainly right about having the shakes after an accident like that, for both the engineer and the truck driver. I guess we should all say a prayer of thanks that it was a semi truck on that crossing and not another school bus.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wow ... uh, yeah ... our local affiliate (you think WMAQ is bad?) WNYT, just showed the impact from behind the truck. No mention of the cars, who was in them or anything other than "woohoo! Watch this NASCAR TYPE EVENT! Woohoo! Hey, didja see that trailer get totalled?" They just showed about 8 seconds worth ... loco, trailer, whips around, crushes and time for some ads. They used it as a BUMPER fer krissakes ...
So please excuse me for having ONLY the impact scene to go with and nothing else. They mentioned the 12/5 injuries but well, as a former broadcaster who has heard more than enough RTNDA's say "two sentences and that's all - they'll hit the remote if you tell 'em any more" so I understand why this is, but just from running a few mighty diesels owing to some relatively lax work rules at Gonerail (that's why most of the folks actually LIKED working there) myself along with buddies from town here, I've seen shifted loads coming at you on oblique angles like that and being tossed to the floor as 2 x 4's came in the windshield, these are things that I've personally seen. I saw a toilet get totalled in the nose by a pipe that fell off a train on an adjacent. Went all the way through the bulkhead, then twisted and tore a gash in the loco. The toilet bought it. Scary stuff.
As they say, "there oughta be a law" ... and also one of the reasons I tend to get preachy when it comes to grade crossings. People actually BELIEVE that train can stop like a Honda. And I take the "train always wins" very seriously as well. Like one of the other folks here is zealous about "tagging," a personal thing for me is 12-9's ... right here in a small railroad town of 2600 souls, we've had four local kids creamed by trains right in town while trespassing and we've had two cars in the last couple of years compacted and ready for a flatbed to Japan - unfortunately with their occupants still in them. The train ALWAYS wins ... pity the "Op Lifesaver" folks never went for a tag like that.
Here's hoping that clip and some commentary on it would make for a good five minute film for "Op Lifesaver" to put out to schools, along with all of the other incidents ... folks really need to realize that trains are not cars ... anyhoo, sorry for the public service announcement, this is one of my own little personal crusades ...
I was able to get to the Channel 5 feedroom, and the video "loaded" but did not play...
Worked fine for me just now. Make sure you have Real Player loaded on your system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I saw that video - the trucker was CLUELESS, CARELESS, and SENSELESS.
He was lucky someone did not get killed. If you cannot get through, do not go in ( that applies to street intersections, as well as grade crossings ).
I saw the awful video of this on the news out here the camcorder operator shot it well did not jerk the camera around
laid off the ZOOM left the whole scene as i would on wide angle view did not do any jerky pans etc...
this person shot an excellent video of this horrible event !!!
Trains Magazine online (click on headline or scroll down to story) reports that Montana Rail Link will use surplus diesel locomotives to generate electricity to encourage factories to continue production so MRL can continue shipping. Montana Power sells juice for $250/megawatt while a locomotive can generate it at $100/megawatt.
This is an interesting idea; it sounds somewhat similar to what CN did during the 1998 Ice Storm in Quebec, where CN derailed a locomotive by a railway crossing and had it supply power to part of a town that had been cut off due to a substantial portion of the Hydro Quebec grid falling down under the weight of all the ice accumulated on the wires.
-Robert King
CP dropped off a few on sidings in upstate New York as well during that time. And who said (extra points, I'm using the "say" word again) diesel locomotives were strictly a bad thing?
Gee here I am in Livingston, Montana right on MRL, also I had worked for them 12 years, and heard nothing about it until now. Guess I need to read the papers every day. I can confirm the surplus of locomotives as there are several laid up here which is the system's locomotive base.
They had a grand plan of building up a lease fleet some years back and bought a mess of junk and restored it, an excellent job by the way; the lease deals were OK for a while until other lines notably BNSF purchased a mess of modern power such as C-44-9W.
If not a transit museum MRL's fleet is pretty much an operating diesel museum; there are still Sw-12oo's, GP-9s [and a handful of what were originally GP-7 and SD-7/9; Sd-40's many upgraded to Dash-2, and a pretty sizeable fleet of SD-45's and a few F-45's; there are others but I won't detail it all.
Leave it to "Denny" [Dennis Washington] to come up with the power generation idea. Got to give him credit, he doesn't miss an angle, kind of a Horatio Alger story, whoever that was. Wonder how the residents would feel about all those exhausts constantly.
From what I've been reading Montana Power was taken over by PPL in California; Maybe Wsahington owns the lines, can't say I know for sure. Power dereg has caused another mess and I wish the pol's would leave things alone when they work fine.
By the way unless Washington Corp. sold IMRL which is also in that trains mag. article (The I&M Rail Link) that is also a Washington Corp property, same paint scheme as Montana Rail Link.
**Please Note I do not write these.**
Today, it's another episode of "2001: A Train Odyssey."
Yesterday (the 25th) we were called for train 34861-22 at 0415.
Couldn't be 0500 to get that badly needed extra 45 minutes of
sleep. In any event, we were there not very bright but certainly early
to begin our journey du jour. As I arrived, I noticed no nice CN
power there for us but instead, a pair of well-worn and beaten up
IC units. Rats, not the start I was looking for. Most of the time we
get CN run-through power on this train.
Inside I go and prepare to begin my day. I see the paperwork on
the printer and gather it up to see what fate beckons us this day. It
says 84 loads, 76 empties, 12,816 tons and 9217 feet of train to be
headed up by the 6114 and 6032. Included in these totals were
4x30, 1408 tons and 1876 feet to be set out at Kankakee.
Conductor Andy shows up shortly thereafter and begins to go
through the process of dealing with the Markham General
Yardmaster for instructions and marking up with two Dispatchers
while I head out to inspect those two old war horses that will pull
our train around. From paperwork left on the power I learn that
these two units had brought train 349 up from Champaign just a
few hours earlier. No trip to Woodcrest for servicing today for them.
My lead unit would be the 6114. Upon beginning my inspection I
discover no ice in the cooler and no garbage bags either. There
certainly wasn't a lack of garbage on the cab floor though. I call
Woodcrest and they dispatch a Laborer with these required items.
By the time I completed the inspection of both units, Woodcrest
had arrived. The Laborer filled the cooler with ice and hung the
garbage bags and quickly took off. Couldn't be bothered to pick up
the trash on the floor though. I guess this made it my job. I refuse
to sit in a mess.
So after playing trash man and then window washer (all those
years of pumping gas as a teenager have really paid dividends in
my railroad career), I was set to go. Andy boarded with all the
required paperwork and general orders. We did a quick job briefing
discussing the two planned work protections for MofW that we
would encounter on our trip and then we were ready to begin the
process of crossing over from F Yard to A Yard to begin doubling
our train.
We began this process and waited during the proceedings for
inbound 191 to clear and went about our business. As I completed
the air test, I observed all my main reservoir pressure dropping
rapidly as I released the brakes. A quick check of both units
showed that the air compressor on the 6032 was not working. The
drive shaft to it was turning, just no air compression activity taking
place. Another call to Woodcrest for assistance.
As we waited for them to perform their voodoo or whatever it is that
make these tired old engines continue to perform, we watched
inbound 193 pass on track one. The governor on the compressor
turned out to be the culprit of the non-functioning compressor. They
bypassed it in order to get the compressor going again and that
would be that. What this meant is that the compressor would pump
constantly instead of cycle. It also meant that the pop off valve to
protect the system from overcharging and blowing up the main
reservoirs would also be working overtime. So be it.
As I called for the signal to depart at Vollmer Road, I joked with
Chicago North Dispatcher Jerry Pilachowski about a pick up of 25
loads of steel at Matteson. He laughed and said the fact they I
merely went along with it instead of questioning such an idea
means that I have become "submissive." I responded something to
the effect of "I hear and I obey." In my four and a half years here, I
have learned that no matter how outlandish it may be, it is certainly
not beyond the realm of what they want us to do in the line of duty.
"So it is written, and so it shall be done."
We finally departed at 0740 and the odyssey begins. We met 337
in a headlight meet at Richton Park with them and number one
track and us on number two. He had a couple of brand new UP
SD70M's trailing dead in tow in his consist.
We crawled on down to Peotone for a meet with Amtrak 58. Yes
crawled. Contrary to those that think otherwise, Illinois is not flat. A
12,000 plus ton train with well aged power demonstrates that fact.
We moved along at a hair raising 14 mph up to just south of
University Park where the railroad levels out and we then began to
get some speed out of it. Unfortunately though, we would have to
head in at Peotone to meet 58, so it was a very short lived burst of
speed.
I should also mention that unlike cheese or wine, locomotives do not improve
with age.
I got permission from MofW Foreman HL Foerster to enter into and
proceed through his planned work limits. We headed in at Peotone,
affected the meet with 58 and headed south again. HL and the
boys are renewing road crossings in Manteno. We had to pass
through his limits at 25 mph over the crossing they were rebuilding
this day.
It had now begun to rain and this would wind up causing yet
another problem, this time with the radio. Chicago South calls and
informs us that we have to not only set out at Kankakee, but pick
up as well. But that is not the best part. He also tells us there is no
room at K3 for the set out, it has to go to Otto which is the next
point south of K3 where we can make such a set out. With this size
of train, we cannot stop and make the pick up and then take it all to
Otto to make the set out. There is too much train and not enough
room between road crossings to allow for this. I guess the person
that decides to run these monster, killer, horror sized trains fails to
see this "big picture." Should we have decided to block one of
these two crossings involved, a visit would most assuredly would
have been made to us by "Officer Friendly" and his well known
"long arm of the law."
"He said Hello boys! Then he gave us a grin. Says looks I'm gonna have to
haul y'all in...."
Being that neither Andy nor I had any desire to sample the lunch
fare at the Bradley or Bourbonnais lock ups, we opted to for the
very long division move to cut off the through portion of the train at
North Street in Bradley and run the set out to Otto first, then come
back to K3 to make the pick up and shove it back well over a mile
to the train. Not exactly efficient, but the only alternative to jail time
and hard labor.
As I attempt to tell Chicago South Dispatcher John Childs of our
intentions, the radio decides to go nuts. The rain had apparently
found its way into an exposed portion of antenna coax and cause a
ground. Whenever there is a radio antenna problem, the radio will
make a "boop" sound audible to us and all that are tuned in and
indicate "bad antenna" on the face plate display of the radio. The
more I tried to talk, the worse the boops got becoming almost
constant and drowning me out altogether. John commented that it
sounded like I was trying to send Morse Code. And most people
say that telegraphy is dead in the rail industry. So now we have a
bad radio to deal with as well.
And people wonder why we railroaders drink?
So Andy heads back to the second unit and uses the radio there to
tell John our intentions and inform him that the radio on our lead
unit is now a problem. All is agreed upon and this mission is about
to begin. But wait, first there shall be another problem.
"Where the hits just keep on coming!"
The Manteno detector tells us we have no defects (obviously not
checking the crew), but also tells us we have extra axles in the train
to the tune of four extra cars. More for our money perhaps? So we
contact Harvey PICL to have him check the Vollmer Road AEI
scanner to get a list of our train and compare it with the train list to
see what the extras really are. This will take a few minutes.
As we passed by HL's gang, one of them spots a potential problem.
He tells us he sees sparks coming from the north set of trucks on a
car 96 from the rear. So now we have to stop and look at this and
take care of it. I drop Andy off at Indian Oaks and pull the train by
him to search for the problem. He checks the suspect car as well
as four ahead and behind it and sees nothing with which to take
exception. Instead of walking back up to the head end from here,
he hitches a ride on a car where he is at and stays there until I
stopped at North St where he would make the cut on our set out.
He walked up to the cut from where he was riding. While he was
doing all this walking, Bruce, the Harvey PICL clerk calls and
informs us that the four extras are all empty gons bound for
Kentucky. Good, nothing hazardous that would require paperwork.
In the meantime, the weather gods felt sorry for Andy and all the
rains ceased. He didn't bring his rain gear this trip and would have
been soaked had the rains continued.
He makes the cut and walks up to the engine and we head off to
Otto, some seven miles away. We pull through Gar Creek and
directly into Otto Pass as it is clear. Some years ago they removed
the facing point switch that used to be here to allow a southward move
from the main into the pass. In order to make a set out here now, one
either has to pull completely through the siding and head into the pass,
or pull all the way down to South Otto and back it in. The rail industry
is famous for progressive moves like this. Every railroad I have
ever worked for has concocted some sort of cost effective scheme
like this to become more efficient. We are no exception.
With that done, we head back to K3 Yard to go against our pick up.
As we tie on, K3 Road Switcher Conductor Kenny McMullen calls
and informs us that he has added some seven more cars to our 28
car pick up. The more the merrier I always say. We go about the
proper air test, pull them out and shove the long road back to the
train. Being that we left room for the pick up so that we would clear
North Street when we cut off, this makes the shove some two
miles. Glad it's not me hanging on the side of that car.
While all of this was going on, the water that was driving the radio
nuts had dried out and the radio returned to its normal self and
began to work properly again. Another small victory.
When all is said and done, Andy walks back up to the head end I
perform the road brake test and we finally leave town. All of this joy
and merriment took a mere 2 hours, 10 minutes. But who's
counting? As close as I could figure, we now had 104 loads, 59
empties, 14,993 tons and 9611 feet of train to take to Champaign.
We met NS 278 patiently waiting at Gar Creek Siding for us. He
showed up there after we headed back to K3 to make our pick up.
The Clifton detector told us we had 161 cars and almost 9500 feet
of train. That would lead me to believe that a couple of the extra
cars were actually in the K3 set out. Hmm, guess they won't be
making it to the Bluegrass State anytime soon.
From here, it became a business as usual trip south. We passed
the Gilman Local at their namesake station. Engineer KO Williams
watched us by and asked if we had left anything behind at
Markham. I told him " Ya, a few."
We traversed the so-called flat Illinois countryside at breath taking
speeds of 27, 29 and 33 mph. We crawled up Loda Hill at a mind
boggling 12 mph. I'll bet the citizenry of Loda just loves us.
Screaming, roaring engines, almost two miles of train and very low
speeds. I did manage to get up to 44 mph coming down Paxton
Hill. Almost a runaway.
I had to converse with Foreman Walter Ratts to enter his planned
work at MP 123. I wonder if his work gang is referred to as the
"Ratt Pack"? He allowed us in only as far as the crossovers at MP
126 in front of the Champaign Yard office. We had to get talked by
the stop signal at Leverett Jct and head down the main there to end
our journey, or so we thought. As we passed the Junction, 325 was
primed and ready to depart upon our clearing up here. My pal
Redbone was out there to great us and capture a Kodak moment.
Being that we had such a long train, we would not clear the junction
when we stopped and detrained. You can get approximately 8700
feet of train on the main track in between the crossovers and the
signal at Leverett. 325 would have to wait a few minutes more.
As we pulled down towards the crossovers and what we had
become to believe was the end of our road today, Walter calls us
and tells us we can now proceed as far south as Bradley Avenue
which is at the south end of the yard. As we all know change is
constant, and so our landing instructions were indeed changed as
a result of the added railroad we could legally occupy. Now instead
of stopping and getting off here, I dropped Andy off and we
planned to make a set out. First, it was the stuff we picked up at
Kankakee. Within moments that changed to the head 68 or so cars
with the rear 40 going to track 4C and the head 28 or whatever we
actually picked up to go to 2C onto some cars already in there.
Only when this mission was safely completed were we allowed to
tie up. And so we did, some 11 hours and 25 minutes after this trip
began.
We did the customary tie up in the computer and entered the cab
for our journey to what is effectively the place I really live, the
Hawthorne Suites. I seem to spend far more time here. What is
called home is actually the place where the beautiful bride and the
wildlife live and the place I visit in between trips south. I know it is
mine though as the friendly folks at the mortgage company send
me monthly reminders of my custody of the property and
obligations to keep it as such.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c2001.
A visit to HotJobs.com, and searching for
"Kawasaki" rung up 3 job vacancies described
as "Rail Car Systems Troubleshooting Engineer"
and "Quality Control Inspector"
and "Manager, Quality Control".
Memoirs of a TA Exec promising to "put the
r142 car-makers' feet to the fire"...
Once and Forever.
Jobs such as these usually disappear the moment a carbuilder does not get a contract from an agency that they were counting on getting!!!!
I'm looking for any CTA employee who might be on subtalk to E-Mail me privately. I'm looking for some very specific information. Thank You!
Does anyone know who the contractor(s) is/are for the Southern NJ light rail project?
Bechtel is the build-and-operate contractor.
Adtranz is building the cars.
Three day negative series in Camden Courier-Post Sunday through Wednesday with a more positive editorial yesterday.
This weekend I plan on taking the L out to Canarsie, then backtrack on the A or C to Franklin, take the shuttle and thence on to Coney Island. The return to Manhattan will be on the F. Any GOs I should know about? Does the Brighton line offer railfan windows?
Also, the trackwork around Dekalb - Atlantic Ave: is that subway or El?
I presume it's safe to ride out to Canarsie?
---Dave
There will be split L- 8th Ave to Myrtle and Bwy Jct to Canarsie qith a shuttle bus joining the two pieces.
The Q: Brighton Express runs with R40 slants, but they only operate on weekdays. The D: Brighton Local runs with R68 cars. The only "railfan window" those cars have is in the door to the full width cab. Usually these windows are covered up with newspaper, advertisements, or other things that block this window.
[Also, the trackwork around Dekalb - Atlantic Ave: is that subway or El?]
This would be confusing because both the D/Q AND the L have stops with these names. They are both subway except the L Canarsie-bound at Wilson Av, which is a surface route, and both ways south of Bushwick Av/Aberdeen St, which is an el. DeKalb-Atlantic on the D/Q is subway.
Here is a GO on the L line you should know about.
Shuttle buses replace trains between Broadway Junction and Myrtle Av
Weekend, 7 AM to 8 PM , Sat and Sun, Apr 28 and 29
Transfer between the shuttle bus and the L at Broadway Junction or Myrtle Av.
Ask for a free transfer when you leave the subway or when you pay your bus fare, even if you pay with MetroCard. Station Shuttle Bus Stop
Broadway Junction on Van Sinderen Av in front of A subway entrance
Bushwick Av-Aberdeen St on Bushwick Av at Aberdeen St (toward Myrtle Av)
on Bushwick Av at DeSales Pl (toward Broadway Junction)
Wilson Av on Decatur St at Wilson Av (toward Myrtle Av)
on Wilson Av at Cooper St (toward Broadway Junction)
Halsey St on Wyckoff Av at Weirfield St (toward Myrtle Av)
on Wyckoff Av at Halsey (toward Broadway Junction)
Myrtle Av on Wyckoff Av at Myrtle Av
(taken from the MTA web site)
Thanks for the information!
Coming back from the WTC yesterday I had the following conversation with the station agent:
Me: Any GOs on the L tomorrow?
Her: What?
Me: Any GOs on the L this weekend?
Her: Any what?
Me: GOs. G--O
Her: What's that?
Me: It stands for General Order. You know, service disruption for track work.
Her: I never heard that before.
Me: How long have you been a station agent?
Her: Six years.
Me: And you never heard that before?
Her: No.
Me: So, any service changes?
Her: I don't know.
Me: You don't have a listing?
Her: Check down on the platform.
[I was at Park Place, taking the 2 or 3 up to Times Square]
Me: There won't be L service notices down on the 2 or 3 platforms.
Her: Well, you'll have to get on the L and see if there are any.
Me: Thanks for all your help.
Brother!
I hope you got her badge number and complained... she's an excellent argument for those who say the station agent's job could be eliminated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That S/A was wrong! ALl booths receive a bulletin each week which lists all the G.O.s for the week for *all* lines. Sure- they may not have info on their plat for the L but they should have the G.O. Bulletin.
I am sorry you had a bad experience.
I am not condoning the action, but maybe the S/A was new?
I once worked at a bank with a guy who didn't know how to answer the telephone to save his life. He'd been there at least 20 years, and despite repeated training from supervisors, couldn't say "- Savings Bank, can I help you?" No, this guy would say "Hello? Hello?" then get a puzzled look on his face and hand the phone to a supervisor (hopefully before the customer hung up in disgust).
If this lady had really worked as a station agent for six years, maybe she fits in this category...
[I presume it's safe to ride out to Canarsie?]
That is correct. However, I wouldn't recommend railfanning on the Canarsie Line (or any line for that matter) if it's after midnight...;-)
BMTman
I'm hoping to hit the J express GO tomorrow night -- probably some time between 10pm and midnight. Would anyone recommend I pass up the opportunity?
I don't know. In my last years living in Sheepshead Bay (1970-72) I took the F from 23-Ely to midtown, then the D to Avenue U just about every weeknight be6tween about midnight and 4 a.m.
Even after moving out of the City, I often parked in Cypress Hills and took the J back from Broad Street at similar hours. Sometimes (Friday night in particular) people were kind of partying, but I never had any serious trouble, and those weren't exactly gentle years in New York. I found the early afternoon, after school let out, to be the worst times, but I survived that, too.
Of course, I idly used to wonder whether one of the gone types who would sometimes sit on the train and gibber to themselves would go berserk with a knife, but it never happened.
Anyone have any late night subway experience recently?
I have been riding the D train fron the Bronx to 34th street daily for the past 10 years at 3/3:30AM. I have not had a single problem in all that time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Paul, I have one interesting story to tell:
Back in '89 (when I was much younger and hard-headed) I had visited a friend in Bensonhurst. I drove to get there. Turns out we hung out at his place till about midnight/1 am or thereabouts. When I was ready to leave it turned out that the car wasn't. She wouldn't turn over. With no real room to put me up for the night, my friend recommended I call for car service. Being the railfan -- and hardhead -- that I was I told him 'no problem I'd take the train home'. So there I was waiting out in the cold (it was around holiday time) on the Sea Beach at the 18th Avenue station and I was due to get to Atlantic and transfer to the 2 for Flatbush Avenue. By time I got a train it was damn near 2 am and most of the people on the train were either nightworkers, or nightcrawlers. In any event, I was tired and half nodding off, but made it to Atlantic Ave. and made my transfer to the 2 without a problem.
However, I had fallen asleep on the car, because I didn't recall any of the stops down to the Junction until we were there. To make a long story short, I woke up to find that the pockets of my leather jacket were turned inside-out! Apparently, I was so 'out of it' that someone picked my pockets w/o me being aware of it! Now THAT'S SCARY!
P.S. They never got my wallet as I always keep it in the inside breast pocket of my jacket. Whatever miscretant that was going through my pockets for lose change, thought better of unzipping the jacket of a sleeping passenger.
Needless to say, I have never fallen asleep on the subway again!
BMTman
>>>Back in '89 (when I was much younger and hard-headed) <<<
BTW, in case you haven't noticed, YOU'RE STILL HARD HEADED!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, in case you haven't noticed, YOU'RE STILL HARD HEADED!!!
And that's just the way we like it!
Hey, I resemble that remark!
Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk!
BMTman
Woo-woo-woo-woooo!!
Time to cue up Petula Clark's "Don't Sleep in the Subway".:-)
It takes one to know one, doesn't it??? :-)
BMTman
Ya got that right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Once upon a time (1960) on a Friday night I get in the last car of an F train that turned at Houston St at the time. There was a gentleman already in the car when the train arrived from W 4th. While the MM was changing ends to head for Jam these 3 dudes come walking into the car from the car ahead. They proceeded to lift what they could from the gentleman ie the wrapped box and his wallet from inside his suit jacket. As I was shown a knife I kept quiet as it was 3 to 1. I felt for the guy but he would not have been any help as I could tell he had a few under his belt. It would have never happened past W 4th as it was standing room only past that station.
So went life.
Burn the Slow Orders Wrap It
Curt
I don't do much late-night (say, between midnight and 5am) riding at all -- I'm typically asleep (or posting here) at the time. When I am out late, it's usually with a group, which makes me feel somewhat more comfortable. A month or two ago I did find myself alone on the subway at night, following an evening of GO chasing with an infrequent poster here, but after we split up I simply rode a 5 from Wall Street through the South Ferry loop and up the West Side (yes, a GO) to 96th, not passing through any neighborhoods that could possibly be considered dangerous. The J is a different story, hence my concern. (In any case, I'll probably push off my J ride to Sunday morning.)
Of course, part of the comfort level of riding at night is how large you are. That is not a guarantee of anything, in case you run into a real nut or someone with a major attitude, but someone in a mood to hassle usually prefers to go after people smaller than they are. I'm kind of on the large size, as is BMTMan, q.v.
BTW, how did you like the Avenue H station house? I have a sentimental attachment to the old structure. When I visited recently I remembered how I liked to ride my bike through the underpass there, pretending I was a Church Avenue trolley going through the Ocean Parkway tunnel. But that was when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
One of the many other perks of being a short man (5'1). It's somewhat more unsafe to be riding alone in the subway at night too. I got that, I get no respect, and women think I'm as appealing as a rodent in the subway.
What are we, animals? Animals attack other animals smaller than them. I thought humans are supposed to be smarter than that.
There's no way around it, being short sucks, when it comes to EVERYTHING.
Size doesn't matter when it comes to the great equalizer. And you never know who's carrying one. All that I know is that gun control is useless.
[There's no way around it, being short sucks, when it comes to EVERYTHING.]
Not really. If you trip and fall, you have less chance of hurting yourself unlike someone like me -- built like a redwood tree. I'd hit the pavement with a deafenning shockwave and have some serious injuries to boot. You wouldn't have as far to fall...
Also, bumping your head against low ceilings is a bi-ch, believe me! It ain't no picknick being tall either.
Gotta look at things from a different light, John.
BMTman
Those that judge you by your size alone are not worth being bothered with. Same for those who judge you by your height, race, outward appearance, and the list goes on. It is no picnic for me, because women bother me, looking for dates, but what they really want is a chance to spend my money, which they think I have an unlimited supply of. When that does not happen, the real person comes out, and I get to see a real Jekyll-Hyde monster in the flesh.
Of course, part of the comfort level of riding at night is how large you are. That is not a guarantee of anything, in case you run into a real nut or someone with a major attitude, but someone in a mood to hassle usually prefers to go after people smaller than they are. I'm kind of on the large size, as is BMTMan
That's true to some extent, which I suppose is good as I'm sort of on the large side too. But vulnerability is more complex than just physicial size. It's hard to define, but some people just give off an "aura" (for lack of a better term) of being fearful and vulnerable, whether riding the subway or in another potentially dangerous situation. In contrast, some other people display more self-confidence and probably are less likely to be harassed regardless of size, age or gender. Criminals may have low I.Q. scores in most cases, but many of them have an animal-like instinct to sense fear.
Dressing like a tourist is a no-no. Also staring at subway/bus maps or looking confused can be an invitation for someone to take advantage of.
No doubt in my mind. When it comes to late night subway safety, size matters. During the mid-80's, I'd frequently ride the D train from Coney Island up to Atlantic Avenue at 2 and 2:30 AM (had to catch that 2:43 AM Flatbush to Long Beach LIRR train). Even though the trains were empty, I'd just stand by the door. Plenty of tough looking individuals and/or groups would pass through from car to car (before the days of the R-68's) and shoot a glance my way. Probably most weren't looking for trouble anyway, but I'm sure there were 1 or 2 over the years that decided to keep moving and look for an easier mark.
CG
I'm at a definite disadvantage when it comes to size. Still, I've never felt uncomfortable on the subway late at night.
I rode the 11:41 2 out of Flatbush last night -- the last express of the day, I'd guess -- having just missed the 11:26. Since the train made local stops north of 72nd, I even got a one-seat ride home -- or, would have, had I bothered sitting. I didn't feel unsafe when there was only one other passenger in the car, and I certainly didn't feel unsafe after 42nd, where the entire world boarded and the train reached near-rush hour load. (Yes! After midnight! Only in New York.)
The station house is very cool. I think that about sums it up. I like the way the turnstiles fit neatly into the old frame of the house. As for crossing the Bay Ridge line tracks, the new footbridge is at 15th, not 17th -- but wouldn't it make the most sense to build a station exit/entrance at the south end of the platforms? The platforms themselves bridge the tracks.
Of course, part of the comfort level of riding at night is how large you are. That is not a guarantee of anything, in case you run
into a real nut or someone with a major attitude, but someone in a mood to hassle usually prefers to go after people smaller than they are. I'm kind of on the large size, as is BMTMan
Of course, size can be deceiving, as shown by an incident I witnessed this morning. I had just gotten off the 1/9 at Houston when I heard some shouting from the sidewalk. Two men were starting a fistfight and a crowd was gathering. From what I could glean from the shouting, one of the vendors who sells leather goods and CD's on the sidewalk was accusing another man of stealing. The alleged thief was a big, tough-looking black youth in his late teens. He was six feet tall or better, and probably weighted something upward of 200 pounds. Now the aggrieved vendor hardly looked like a fair match. He was an older Hispanic man, probably in his fifties, who was at least six inches shorter and fifty pounds lighter than his opponent.
This may sound like the mismatch of all times, but in fact the skinny older vendor was trading punches with the big young thug and didn't back down for a minute. Neither one was connecting very well if at all, which under the circumstances has to be viewed as a big victory for the vendor. A couple of the other vendors then stepped in and broke up the fisticuffs, and the young thug walked off muttering obscenities. If his room-temperature-IQ mind can comprehend anything at all, he's probably learned not to take anyone for granted. Serves his right.
Of course, size can be deceiving, as shown by an incident I witnessed this morning. I had just gotten off the 1/9 at Houston when I heard some shouting from the sidewalk. Two men were starting a fistfight and a crowd was gathering.
Maybe it comes from being brought up in the City, but when I read this part of your story, the first thing that occurs to me is not that a vendor is fighting with a supposed thief, but that a diversion is being created.
Very, very old scam. Watch the "fight" if you like, but hold onto your wallet reeeaaalll tight.
bOf course, size can be deceiving, as shown by an incident I witnessed this morning. I had just gotten off the 1/9 at Houston when I heard some shouting from the sidewalk. Two men were starting a fistfight and a crowd was gathering.
Maybe it comes from being brought up in the City, but when I read this part of your story, the first thing that occurs to me is not that a vendor is fighting with a supposed thief, but that a diversion is being created.
Very, very old scam. Watch the "fight" if you like, but hold onto your wallet reeeaaalll tight
Aha. That never occurred to me. I suppose it's entirely possible, as there were a number of people in the immediate vicinity of the (maybe) altercation. I was about 50 feet away, which under the circumstances you note might have been fortunate.
Thanks for enlightening this naive suburbanite!
Let's see -- four Midnight jobs on the 1, one on the 2 - yeah, that qualifies as late night subway riding. The only stories though, are usually on the trips that happen after sun-up, at least so far as passengers are concerned. The track workers and signal maintainers on the midnights are another story.
Friday morning, one of them cut into a live 600v cable between 96 and 103/Bway. As luck would have it, I was one of two #1 trains south of 96 St, so that night I saw the Ferry 4 times instead of 3.
(My connection just dropped, so I don't know if this posted already)
Man, talk about bad luck.
Looks like a track worker got a shocking experience!
BMTman.
Actually, the damned fool saw sparks and ran for his life! The explosion burned his ladder and broke out an 18" section of conduit, taking out all 600v power between 96 and 110 Stfor about 2 hours.
For a few months this past winter, I was working near Cortlandt St. on the N/R from 6p to 2a. Actually, the commute home to Bay Ridge (N to 59th, then catch the R shuttle) wasn't too bad at all. In fact, it was often a quicker ride at that hour than rush hour now (I still work in the same area). The only difference is that I've traded the homeless for yuppies. Not sure which I prefer.
The only difference is that I've traded the homeless for yuppies. Not sure which I prefer.
Don't give the yuppies any spare change "for food." They turn right around and spend it on Evian Water.
The only difference is that I've traded the homeless for yuppies. Not sure which I prefer.
Don't give the yuppies any spare change "for food." They turn right around and spend it on Evian Water.
How pretentious. The skells are perfectly satisfied with Poland Spring.
Funny, I was planning on catching this same GO but never did ... this past Friday night, I was going to take the E train to Jamaica Center and then take the J back to Manhattan .... I was waiting at Roosevelt Ave for an E train that never came because of a GO on THAT line ... (And I saw NO signs whatsoever in my transfer from the #7 line - it was a sign I saw in an F train that I read "backwards" when I realized that GI) ... since it was getting late and I had already been on the subway all day, I decided to forget it and take an F through the 63rd St connection and go back to my car in Brooklyn.
I did catch the Pelham GO (express from Parkchester to Pelham Bay Park Friday afternoon) and lots of R-142s on the Pelham Line, too. All videotaped :)
--Mark
I missed it too. I figured I'd save it for this coming Sunday and also catch the N running express on the B.
I've noticed that the typical GO isn't posted in useful places and sometimes isn't even announced on the line it affects. It's also riddled with errors. And the public is never informed when an express runs local.
I caught the same Pelham GO (the other way, IIRC) about a month ago. The official service advisory claimed that it was in effect Monday through Friday, whatever week, except Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Could they have made it any more confusing?
WCBS Newsradio 880 is reporting that the redbirds will live on .... off the coast of Ocean City. And the EPA has given its blessing.
Well - at least a great idea will not be squandered. DeFrancesco has made two decissions :
1) Stopped the dumping of subway cars off Atlantic City (BAD)
2) Decided not to run for Governor (MUCH GOOD)
2) Decided not to run for Governor (MUCH GOOD)
That's BAD. His running would assure a Democratic victory.
Nah. Gasoline prices will take care of that. :)
The "oil party" is done.
Some of the transit lobbying groups were pulling for Franks in Franks vs. Corzine for Senate. Corzine won.
Now Franks is running for NJ governor. As a rep, he was good at getting pork-barrel funds for transit projects in NJ. But would he be able to do the same as governor?
Do you really think ocean dumping those cars is a good idea?
This is theatre of the the absurd, to me. Tons and tons of
perfectly good metal that instead of being recycled will be
wasted because of regulatory nonsense. Well, at least we'll
always be able to run redbird fantrips in the future, scuba
lessons included.
In this case, I think that sinking the cars will be more practical. Before the cars could be scrapped, the asbestos bas to be removed. Conservative estimates put that cost at $30 Million. However asbestos, even if friable, will not become airborne if 100' or more beneath the surface. Based on the currend value of scrap metal, I doubt that the cars would bring enough from the scrapper to offset the cost of asbestos abatement.
I think my idea would be more practical than either of the other two. I'm proposing a series of Redbird trailer parks be built. The first, called Salaam village would be built in east LA. Each unit would have a railfan window view of the HOLLYWOOD sign. Of course, given the electric crisis in that state, we'd only use R-33S cars without AC.
Maybe solar panels could be mounted on the roof of each car to
make it into a large co-gen plant.
But seriously folks, my point: is it necessary to abate? Is it
necessary to do it to the extent and cost that is being required
by agency or agencies unknown? Admitedly, most of the scrap metal
value is in the steel truck assemblies and the copper wiring, and
that is being stripped before the reef laying.
Because after 30 - 40 years, the asbestos has become friable, abatement is required if the asbestos will be exposed to air during the scrapping process. If the cars were to be sunk, it would be virtually impossible for the asbestos to become airborne and inhaled - where it becomes a health hazzard. Some people do not understand what it is that they are afraid of.
Is it fair to assume that the cost of removing the asbestos would make the car bodies worthless as sources of recycled steel?
Yes, it is... the cost of the abatement is greater than the scrap value.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bummer...
I've heard estimates of $25,000 to $30,000 per car. I hardly think the scrap value is anything close.
If those amounts are correct, I would agree with you.
That's Ocean City, MD. At least 8 miles off. Story in Star-Ledger.
OH! OH!
Does Spendenning know about this? Does Maryland Department of the Environment?
Has Anybody bothered to ask?
Maryland may not want the 'birds either.
"The 50- and 60-foot cars "?
are there any 60 footers running into the sea?
Why not just use a diamond J? The Z doesn't run all day, it just runs during rush hour service. At least thats when I only seen it. The Z also should swap terminals with the M. Let the M go to Bay Parkway during rush hour and run express in brookyln from Atlantic Ave to 9th Ave to 62nd Street to Bay Parkway. This service only operates from 6am - 10am mornings, then 3pm - 7pm evenings.
Frank D
Why not just use a diamond J? The Z doesn't run all day, it just runs during rush hour service. At least thats when I only seen it. The Z also should swap terminals with the M. Let the Z go to Bay Parkway during rush hour and run express in brookyln from Atlantic Ave to 9th Ave to 62nd Street to Bay Parkway. This service only operates from 6am - 10am mornings, then 3pm - 7pm evenings.
Frank D
It would be hard and undesirable to run the Z (or the M or anything else) express on 4th Ave. in Brooklyn during rush hours because there are already two express services there (B and N).
The Z is the skip-stop pair to the J. That's all it is. It's not a different line; that's why it runs the identical route to the J, making a few different stops. The Z runs shorter hours than the extended M. The Z also runs only towards Manhattan in the morning and only towards Jamaica in the afternoon, which wouldn't be very useful on the West End.
Having some stops served by (only) the J-in-a-circle and other stops served by (only) the J-in-a-diamond would be confusing.
The J/Z arrangement is no different from the 1/9 arrangement (except that the 9 runs in both directions each rush hour).
"Z" have been known to do revenue dead-heads in the opposite directions; I've been on quite a few of them; they invariably terminate at (or originate from) Eastern Parkway station. These mimic the old #14 Broadway Short Line. Also, the "Z" as seems to run a higher-than-normal percentage of R40M's, some of which are full-8's.
wayne
Before the Z, they did have a J1 and a J2 train during rush hours that has the current J/Z service pattern. Obviously they changed that name system because it wasn't very practical, neither is (J) and when they have a letter like Z. Now if they would only change them for the IRT lines...
That service only operated in the AM rush, towards Manhattan, where skip stopping rarely confused Manhattan bound riders.
NYCT decided to use separate route identifiers on skip stop lines, while saving the diamond and circle for lines that operate a zone express service. Hence the diamond #5, #6 and #7. In fact there was a time when they were considering using skip stop service on almost all of the IRT routes. To that end you can find numbers 1 through 13 on end roll sign of the R62 class railcars. Thankfully, this madness was re-thought and abandoned.
The Z isn't a different route than the J is, it merely differentiates which trains stop where during skip-stop operation. Both lines should always be thought of as the same thing.
what is the difference between a diamond and circle and whatever that is behind the designation of the subway lines?
Circles where used when line colors were first used in 1967. The colors were changed with the map redesign on 1979. That was also when diamonds were first used. Diamonds used to represent special rush hour service, all rush hour only service was marked with a diamond. Since these were mainly third track expresses, many people saw it to mean express. What it means now is mainly a special service that's not the norm for the line but runs simultaneously with the norm. Like those expresses on the third track. The Z is really a diamond J, but here it was chosen to use a different letter, making the diamond (under modern interpretation) unneccessary.
With the third track expresses, do they run in both directions.
Prevailing direction at rush hour, no service other times (as a general rule).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, in the morning, the trains would go one direction, and in the evening, the trains would go the other direction?
Correct. It's still that way on the 7 train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AKA Peak direction Toward Manhattan durin the AM toward outer boro in the PM
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
No. Bidirectional express service with only three tracks would be possible with creative switching, but the TA hasn't had the guts to try it out yet.
After the incident this weekend and yet another death of a graffiti artist, could the MTA not install infra-red cameras , some sort of trespassing sensor that would trigger an alarm in the tunnel relayed to the closest maned booth as to send transit police to evict the perpetrators.
I understand this would affect the whole system and would mean hours of work, but would also eradicate the homeless problem and would make these artists think twice before venturing down into a tunnel knowing very well that within a couple of mins, transit police would be on them.
While I never discount any thoughtful idea out of hand, there are a few problems with that suggestion that immediately come to mind.
1) The enormity of the system, itself would make the plan impractical. It would simply require too many cameras.
2) The cost to monitor such a system would be enormous. Even if it were staffed with permanently restricted employees, the costs to monitor would be staggering.
3) The cameras would mearly provide a new challange for the die-hard graffiti vandal. They (the cameras) might even become the target of the vandalism.
4) There would be possible confusion with persons who had legitimate need to be in the tunnels.
5) While I'm not a lawyer, I suspect that if the TA were to begin monitoring tunnel activity, it might increase its own exposure in liability cases were a vandal is killed by a train. The presumption might be that the person monitoring that segment of tunnel was inattentive or there was inadequate staffing.
Wouldn't the system marty is suggesting also prevent someone from tampering with tracks of signals? There have been some deadly accidents on Amtrak caused by vandals tampering with equipment.
The enormity of the system, itself would make the plan impractical. It would simply require too many cameras.
I don't think the system is all that evil, it's enormous, but that doesn't make it wicked.
But I'm not posting this so I can convey words I learned from the Village Voice (there was a funny monkey on the cover that looked like Bush, otherwise I'd rather read Pravda). I just wanted to say that I don't think the TA should be responsible for the actions of someone that did something completely dangerous and was of sound mind.
The only reason the TA should do this is because the cost of such incidents is greater than the cost of this system. It is not.
Sorry Piglet, Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary states that it is proper to use enormity to express hugeness etc. However, you are correct in that your definition is the first listed in Webster's.
I'm just wondering...if the threat of being flattened by a speeding train doesn't keep graffitists out of the tunnels, woudl the threat of merely being arrested be much of a deterrent?
Just wondering, I say.
Mark
Human behavior dictates that, yet in this case has proven a failure. The only thing these people have to worry about is oncoming trains or TA workers is not a deterent. Knowing that the motion sensors are hooked up, that within a span of time they would have company by the authorities, AKA transit police or vandal squad; this might give them the incentive to give up hitting tunnels.
Transit Bureau is soo busy right now, reforming assignments for summer months, and new patterns, They dont need another gadget form the MTA. Motion sensors? sounds expensive, I'd be tempted to remove them and sell them. You know me man. TA workers are the last thing to worry about when you're in the tunnels "work bums" we call 'em, unlike real bums who live in the tunnels. I think its not too practical, some sort of instrument is needed to detect Tunnel Personnel, and what a Bitch to install it too.
yea marty im sure you'd love that, with the sizzit you told me tou wanted to do
We had some posts on aircraft builders building trains so thought I'd toss this in. I was reading my Brooklyn el roster the other day and found that Harlan and Hollingsworth built some 15 Brooklyn el steamcars (trailers, that is) in 1893 or so. That company, from my few years on the Hudson River, from names I saw on builder's plates and certificates was a shipbuilder, based In Wilmington,DE I think. For the time I don't know if they built any other railcars.
If I'm not mistaken the old Reading MU's were built by Betlehem steel who was not a railcar producer as a rule [IIRC] so I'd expect that their shipyard division built the railcars.
There may be other examples but these came to mind.
Bethlehem Steel also built freight cars, and in at least one case provided 'kits' to the B&O for hopper cars. These were then assembled at the DuBois Pa. Shops by RR workers.
In the field of mainline railroading, in 1946 Ingalls Shipbuilding of Pascagoula, Mississippi turned out their one and only locomotive. The model never went into production, but GM&O bought the prototype, which remained on the roster for some twenty years under road number 1900. See:
http://www.trainweb.org/jimrail/1900.jpg
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
What a blast from the past! My memory is fuzzy but I think I used that locomotive in the scrapbook I had to make for my 5th grade Mississippi History class long ago in a state far away. That and the Casey Jones story were the two train-related items I had in my scrapbook.
Mark
The funicular railway cars at Six Flags Magic Mountain in Valencia, California were built by some shipbuilding company according tot he plates on each car's interior.
The thing that gets me is....Austria is a landlocked country....so whatever that "shipbuilder" built, wasn't too awful big. Had tobe able to "leave town" via canals or rivers.
That's the 57-year-old woman whose plastic bag got caught in the closed door at 155th St. She suffered a fractured leg, a fractured ankle, lacerations that required more than 200 stitches and other injuries.
Daily News story.
Scheduled to begin early 2003 instead of spring 2004.
Daily News story
If you can find a copy of todays Daily News, there is a story on page 3 about plans for a new Yankee Stadium next to the current one on the site of Maccombs Dam Park..
The new stadium is not the point of this post, but rather the breath taking aerial view of the stadium and the park. Prominent is the #4 Woodlawn-Jerome line with a set ofR-62s leaving 167th St. Also shown where the "el" splits to accommodate the Polo Grounds Shuttle. The old tower used for the Polo Grounds shuttle is shown too.
As for one who attended two of the three Polo Grounds Shuttle tours, you can trace the ROW where it emerges from the apartment buildings, runs east to join the Woodlawn line. The tower for the Polo Grounds shuttle south of 167th St is there too.
Check it out if you can find a copy.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://nydailynews.com/2001-04-27/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-108950.asp
Check it out, great pic.
Marty
For great aerial views of Yankee Stadium, there's always:
USGS Aerial Photograph 13 Mar 1995
--Mike
Is that an aerial or satelite (sp?) view ?
I clicked on the arrows to change the view and saw the route of the Polo Grounds shuttle and where the tunnel is. Amazing !
Bill "Newkirk"
It's satellite. That's why everything has that "straight on from above" look to it. The images cover most of the US, in fact. They used to have more features, but it's still a *very* cool site.
--Mike
How do you like this one? Watch out -- it's pretty large (158k).
I got that from the New York State GIS Clearinghouse, in particular the Statewide Digital Orthophotography. This particular selection is from the CENTRAL_PARKNE quad, converted from SID format to a somewhat more widely recognized format.
That's the same image, by the way, just in color. Note the presence of the 4 train at the station in both pictures.
--Mike
The grass in Yankee Stadium is RED ! What gives ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hell, don't you know Bill. The Yankees are off to a slow start, Steinbrenner got panicky and killed all the hired help, then put their remains in plain view as a warning to Torre and Co. the same thing could happen to them if they don't get their crap together.
"Steinbrenner got panicky and killed all the hired help, then put their remains in plain view as a warning to Torre and Co"
I thought a grounds keeper pulled a joke by attaching a hose to a pot on your stove and then flicked a switch and all that pasta gravy sprinkle the turf !!
I know it's a strange having a hose 3000 miles long from Arcadia to the Bronx to pull this off, but I'm surprised the meatballs didn't clog the pump !
Bill "Newkirk"
I only share my sauce with my friends, and Steinbrenner isn't one of my friends. It might have held true about 50 years ago when I lived in New York, was four miles from Yankee Stadium and they had all those Italians on the team----Berra, Raschi, Martin (Paesano), DiMag, and Rizzuto. Now there's only Mussina and I'm three thousand miles away. Of course, had I done this back then, I would have added some laxatives to it. Can you imagine in the5th inning. Wow!!!
Big deal. The Yankees are ALWAYS off to a slow start. It's the way they are. Doesn't stop them from winning the World Series time and time again.
Right Americano, just as they did during 1965-1975, and 1982-1995. They are getting old and they're time to his the floor is coming again so get ready for a fall.
Thats the way green shows up in those kind of pictures...notice also, how you can make out the old shape of the Polo Grounds too!
Oh, don't worry. It's just the first of the ten plagues. Get ready for frogs.
Seriously, for whatever reason, red and green are reversed in these images. It's too bad there isn't an R142 on the 6 (or the 4, I suppose) in the picture -- its front end sign would finally display correctly!
From the help page:
"Why do the orthoimage colors appear the way they do?
"The imagery is based on color infrared photography with red tones indicating vegetation vigor. A digital orthophoto is a raster image of remotely sensed data in which displacement in the image due to sensor orientation and terrain relief have been removed. Digital orthophotos combine the image characteristics of a photograph with the geometric qualities of a map."
--Mike
Sorry David. I don't like it. It has to do with the Yankees and I have had a visceral dislike of them since I was seven. Put a picture of Shea Stadium up there and we can talk business, even though at the present time the Mets are making me sick.
I'm actually an anomaly in this city -- I don't much care for sports in any form. Yankees, Mets -- it's all the same to me.
I only put up the Yankee Stadium orthoimage because, well, see the subject line. But you're in luck -- if you follow the link in my earlier post (grandparent to this one) to the New York State page, it just happens to have an orthoimage of Shea Stadium right there. Enjoy.
I grew up next to Yankee Stadium. I couldc see the outfield from the roof of my building at 941 Jerome Avenue (at 161 St). I ate the thin, oily pizza from Paula Pizza and loved it - and my dad got my shoes fixed next door at the shoe repair place.
Other than the loss of the Grand Union, I was very gratified to see the neighborhood survive reasonably well. It will always have a special place in my heart...
According to www.borders.com, my publisher has informed them that "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" has gone out of print. If that proves to be true, then this book has died a VERY quick death. That said, I want to take this time to thank all Subtalkers for your support, especially Dave Pirmann for allowing me to use this forum to promote it. The "Tale of Ten Cities" series is essentially dead though I am confident that I will eventually find a publisher for what would have been the second volume, "Windy Rails: The Elevated Railroad and the Transformation of Chicago". Again, thanks for your support and here's hoping that "Windy Rails" finds a new home.
Regards,
Eric Dale Smith
Why not put it up on the web?
How many copies was the original press run?
-Dave
I would like to do that but I don't know how. As to the number of copies sold, well as of now I've been told nothing. What makes this whole thing strange is that even though they've told Borders it's out of print, it's still listed in Amazon.com and their (Publishamerica) own website. Even though I consider the "Tale of Ten Cities" series dead and stated that I was free to market my upcoming books to other publishers, technically they could still declare the right of first acceptance/refusal clause of my contract still in effect (though at this time I seriously doubt that they will). If that happens, then I could be tied up for years because they could demand that I write every book in the series even if they don't publish any one of them. Again, I don't think that it's going to come to that but that's the spot I'm in. Looks pretty mean, doesn't it?
Eric Dale Smith
Has anyone who ordered the book from Publishamerica received his or her copy? I placed an order with Amazon.com and was advised that the order would be filled anywhere from four weeks to never. Publishamerica sounds like a less than reputable outfit.
I'm still technically under contract and so I want to give my "benefactors'" the benefit of the doubt but........
Eric Dale Smith
I received mine... ordered directly from PublishAmerica... the publishing quality leaves a LOT to be desired.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agree completely. It took about 6 weeks and a few e-mails regarding status, but I did get it.
--Mark
Would it be *legal* for you to republish the first volume on the web? I could work with you on that...
-dave
Not now because they're (Publishamerica) sayng that www.Borders.com made a mistake and the book is still "active". Go figure. With the complaints I've been getting about delivery times and print quality, well let's just say I'm one very confused and #*@$! off camper. Anyway, I'm going to be spending ten days in New York starting next Friday and you can bet that I'll be doing some SERIOUS railfanning on the J and #7 lines. I haven't been up there to see my folks in two months and the "break" will do me some good. Hopefully, I'll find some chunks of the Brooklyn Broadway El to add to my Chicago collection.
Eric Dale Smith
Eric,
A word of advice. Get yourself a lawyer. I am no legal expert but from what I have seen I think you are being taken.
Aside from that - try to get as many copies from the (so-called) publisher as you can and sell them yourself.
Your publisher hasn't told you directly that they're ditching you? Very shady.
We'll, we've got the internet now. Perhaps you can find a printer to print out and ship copies on demand, and make people who are interested in mass transit aware of your book (I'd never heard of it) via forums like this one. Perhaps you could post the highlights on the internet for free, and allow people to order somehow.
Works for the Tracks of the NYC Subway book (I'll be ordering another version soon).
At Nostrand Ave. on the IND Fulton St. line, why is the express tracks on the upper level and the locals on the lower level?????
This was a provision for a future line which was not built.
Are you thinking of UTICA Ave? (section of parallel station on upper level). At NOSTRAND it is double deck, and this may have been because that part of Fulton St was too narrow for an express station on one level.
No. Joe Cunningham said it was to be for a future new line. Utica is another plan for an IND Utica Ave Line. This was to be another new line.
I am sure someone can elaborate, but the IND was built with many provisions for future lines. Some were to be a part of IND Second System (See www.nycsubway.org and click on the IND) and some were just provisions for future possibilities. Some like South 4th, Broadway on the G,Roosevelt Ave Terminal Station were actually built to some stage of completion- a shell to almost done.
Hey, wasn't there some grand plans made by the BRT to make a Brooklyn crosstown line to meet at Nostrand before the G line came about?
Yup. IIRC, it was supposed to link into the Franklin Shuttle. Not sure if Nostrand Ave. was designed the way it was for this line, as the BMT crosstown line was already dead before the IND was constructed here.
I rode the E once again today. I saw an R32 on the R, and for some reason everytime I see a R32 on the R a R46 E is never far away. I said oooh and its a R46 out loud and this guy comes up behind me and says they put some R46's on the E sometimes. I told him I'm a Railfan and mentioned this Sight. I then told me I am E to JAMAICA CENTER and he goes I am SilvaFox. I was like oh yeah
Meeting E to JAMAICA CENTER wasn't the first time in a railfanning trip I met someone on board with a transit bent. E-Train, keep on 'fanning!
I did mention that I once met someone drawing sketches of the scenes within a car on the E-Train. The guy's name was Marc Brown, and I invited him to post about his sketches on this site. As I don't monitor the site regularly, did anybody notice if he posted or not?
Speaking of the E train, is there any chance that they will extend it beyond Jamaica Center????? Because I'm tired of transfering to the bus.
We've been down this track before - many times. The original plan called for the line to be extended along Merrick Blvd and Francis Lewis Blvd to Rosedale. The line would have been partially subway and partially elevated ala LIRR due to the water table in south Jamaica.Naturally, the residents of Rosedale did not want better transit in their area. Hence, this project was stopped where it is and is not being contemplated in the near future (5-10 years)
I thought that they wanted to convert one of the LIRR branches to Rosedale into subway?
Now I'd like to ask when the 4 train will be routed down Utica Avenue to Kings Plaza and when the useless Mill Basin Creek between Strickland Avenue and Avenue U is filled in so I can also not use the bus (and such a horrible bus the B100 is).
I didn't realize that you are (still) a Mill Basinite. Greetings from a former one who still loves the neighborhood he grew up in. The B100 was pretty bad when I was a student at Tech HS, too. Then, it seems to me that there was a period when it was much better. Did it seem that way to you, and then did it get worse? By the way, extension of the Division A system to Kings Plaza, bad idea. Capacity, where will they get the capacity? And depressing all underground. Better off with the Brighton, investing the money to connect the Franklin Av. shuttle to something useful to increase capacity and avoid possible future Manhattan Bridge problems.
By the way, extension of the Division A system to Kings Plaza, bad idea. Capacity, where will they get the capacity?
You're right. If most people taking the bus took it to the IRT it wouldn't matter, but I think it would pick up a lot more current Brighton passengers and the IRT is too crowded to fit them.
But I don't like the Franklin Avenue Shuttle idea. If a Utica Avenue line is built, it can just go further north than Eastern Parkway to connect with something. Does the Broadway El have capacity? I would like to replace that with a subway in the median of the Bushwick Expressway.
So why not a Nostrand extension instead of Utica? that line was supposed to go beyond Flatbush Ave not long after it was built, or planned or whatever.
In "Under The Sidewalks Of NY" Brian Cudahy quotes a tale of a young couple who bought a home in Brooklyn and that the realtor told them the [Nostrand Ave] subway would be extended there. Just to give a time frame the couple retired and moved to Florida over 20 years ago already.
WHEN WILL EXTENSIONS BE BUILT? WHEN THE ROLL IS CALLED UP YONDER.
The Nostrand Ave. extension was killed by the Nostrand/Avenue N Tax Payers Association back in the late '50's (aka Marine Park NIMBYS) who were promised a subway line, but got wind that it would end up being a noisy El structure winding it's way through the residential streets and terminating -- literally -- inside Marine Park.
I suppose the homeowners had a legitimate reason for their concerns.
BMTman
There's no reason they'd have to go to Marine Park. An el over Utica is good. Nostrand is less good because it's residential from Quentin Road (or further north, I can't remember!) to Avenue U.
Now turning it on Gerritsen Avenue to run to Lois Avenue would be cool!
That's almost a shock to me that a new el would have been offered as late as the '50's. The story I read indicated that the extension was planned in the 20's or 30's...Nostrand that is, likewise my understanding was that it would have been a subway but then I could have understood wrong. Flatbush Ave.[IRT] terminal definitely gives all appearance that it wasn't supposed to remain the terminal.
Right, Ed. That's why Flatbush/Nostrand terminal station is NOT an island platform. The Board of Transportation always had in mind that it would continue on down to -- I believe -- Voorhies Avenue near Gerristen Beach.
I think I confused the Nostrand extension project with the Utica Ave. extension Plan. I'll have to check my notes, because the Utica Ave. Line that was planned is the one that would have terminated in Marine Park (inside the Park).
BMTman
I believe that the way to go would not be to build any more underground subway lines or extensions, except for the 2nd Av. line; but connections between existing lines, definitely yes, and use of existing open-cut, surface, and embankment rights-of-way, definitely yes. There would be two goals: increasing capacity on existing lines and extending lines where such non-underground rights-of-way exist. Thus less cost and more utility per unit cost. I believe that there are several possibilities with the Franklin Av. shuttle. Though I risk the comparison to building with Lionel, I'll go ahead and propose 2-track underground connection northward to meet the northbound G, both of which would turn west to a new tunnel to Manhattan around 23rd St. to meet existing north-south subway lines in Manhattan; southbound G would also use that tunnel for connection. Result: more capacity for two heavily over-burdened main trunk lines: the Brighton Line in Brooklyn and Queens Blvd. line in Queens. Should make both Brooklyn and Queens residents happy. (Also relieves dependence on Manhattan Bridge for southern division trains.)
The Franklin Avenue shuttle is too high to ramp down to the G.
I would build a branch of the Second Avenue Subway down Avenue B or C, then through a new tunnel to connect with the G and a new line of some sort.
Even though I am definately for a subway to Kings Plaza, god knows the B41 along flatbush rastariffic but its too slow, Would you not think it would ruin Mill Basin to extend the subway from Nostrand Junction or anyplace else?
Problem is that the geographic make-up of the area around Kings Plaza makes subway construction expensive where the alternative -- an El structure -- would meet with resistance from businesses and residents alike.
BMTman
The geographic makeup is no problem. The street are all nice and straight. A subway can be built through the swampy land, but it is expensive. I don't see it ever happening.
Would you not think it would ruin Mill Basin to extend the subway from Nostrand Junction or anyplace else?
It would only improve it. Just like other nice places with subway stations (like Bay Ridge or Forest Hills). It would make houses cost MORE because now the neighborhood would offer a quick commute.
As for filling in creeks, I also think that Strickland should be extended to Flatbush Avenue on the edge of what remains of the creek, Avenue U extended on a bridge across the Paerdegat Creek to connect to Seaview Avenue and Canarsie Seaview connected over the Fresh Creek to Starret City Seaview.
Now if I became the dictator I'd also build a light rail line from Canarsie Pier to Coney Island as part of a crosstown LR system.
I remember reading about a Sheepshead Bay, Brighton Beach and Coney Island LR in the Brooklyn Skyline (I think I ran out of toilet paper).
Others have posted here that the LIRR was not thrilled about giving up one of its branches, and that had at least as much to do with it.
Notwithstanding, NIMBY is a five-letter curse word!
I was just wondering, what are the unit numbers for the different phases or if not possible, how many of each are there. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
The numbers of the Phase I and phase II R-32s follow no particular sequence. Since they are split between (4) different shops, one list is not a standard item. Pitkin has all Phase I cars, Coney Island has all Phase II cars, Jamaica has both and 207th St has the Sigma/GE cars.
I know that the GE cars have the crappy (non-functional) A.C. system and the blacked-out destination signs...but what are the differences between Phase I and Phase II cars?
Phase one: The door cut-out keyhole (on the ends of the seats) is set in a round, whiteish (and possibly protruding) thing. Phase two: Keyhole is set in a square metal panel. Other differences escape me. Since only Jamaica yard has both, it's easy to tell simply by what yard the car is assigned to. To tell Jamaica phase Is from IIs, simply look for the black floor (phase I).
The R-32 GE has an R-38 interior, except it has 10 stanchions (vertical poles). Regular R-32s have 9, while R-38 has 6. Just in case you ever need to tell those classes apart from the inside.
I didn't even know there was a difference between the interiors of the R32 and R38.
I guess this is as good a time as any to ask: What makes the R38 so different from the R32. I know about the corugations on the exterior, etc. But apart from that, they seem very similar to me. So what are the differences that mean that the R32 will survive the next car retirement but the R38 will not?
:-) Andrew
"So what are the differences that mean that the R32 will survive the next car retirement but the R38 will not?"
The roofs in the R-38s are leaking causing rust which is compromising structural integrity. The R-40s and R-42s are said to be doing the same which is why they will meet their fates sooner than the R-32. Check out the roofs on the R-38s, some have been waterproofed and repainted. Most roofs have tape covering seams.
The good old R-32 roofs..........watertight and no problems detected.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-32s are all-stainless steel from the inside out. The R-38s thru R-42s have a stainless steel skin only. They may still look good out the outside, but as Bill points out, they have internal corrosion.
Budd built an outstanding product.
I can't comment on your specific question, but one notable difference between the R32 and R38 is the overhead handrails. In the R32 they run parallel to the seats and then run up into the ceiling; in the R38 they run parallel to the seats, down a bit, and perpendicular to the seats into the wall (by the door). As a somewhat short railfan, the only car types I can comfortably stand in (if I don't make it to the railfan window) are the R38 and the Redbirds.
One big difference is the phase I side doorpost is painted beige like the rest of the wall, while in phase II it is stainless steel
Aside from a few superficial cosmetic differences which have more to do with the R-32 and R-32A contracts, the real differences are in the equipment in and under the car. The major differences are:
Phase I
Wabco Air brake
Thermoking AC
GE Master Controller
Vapor Door Equipment.
Phase II
New York Air Brake
Stone Safety AC
Westinghouse Master Controller
Midland Ross Door Equipment.
Thanks for the details, bro ... when I came on the property, the 32's had become familiar citizens though I only did "C/R" duty on them on occasion. Once I had been caught playing "DJ" on my runs, I got put back on rusty iron duty, no PA's at ALL to play with, the best I could hope for was playing "Beulah the buzzer" (original "Truth or Consequences" TV show) with my front end. :)
The 32's have genuinely proved themselves over the years though, I must say. They were there before *I* started 30 years ago and it looks like most will beat the clock for longevity. To me, they were the "shiny idols that would kill my mighty R9" but damned if they haven't EARNED their throttles ... seriously ... now GENUFLECT, my man! :)
Oh, and just for a reference as to who I be ... I'll reprint a long-lost in the archives photo of moi so you have an idea of what I look like recently as well as a familiarity ...
Anyone else for putting a "mug shot" online here so's we can see who we is? Amusing since I have a few photos myself of some fellow "gassers-off" here but owing to my own company's stringent privacy policies, would NEVER put up with a connection to who dey is ...
I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Heh. And yes, I've taken a shave since - since Voorheesvile was celebrating its 100th anniversary as a village, all residents were strongly encouraged to grow beards in competition for the longest and to honor the legacy of V'Ville, "booze, broads and choochoos" under which it was established. Voorheesville had an interesting history during prohibition of its free flowing likker, loose women and never, ever running dry.
You can TELL I'm an old Bronx boy and was attracted to the character of this village's history of trains, booze and nookie ... even if ti ain't like that anymore. Being an adopted resident though is genuinely a treat just the same. Railroad folks are like Carneys to me ... if ya been "with it" it's an even more amusing ride.
But just so ya knows, ya can't take life so seriously and be healthy.
Well, I'll post a link to Anon_e_mouse's Home Page just in case anyone's interested... I'm the ugly one with the beard, lest there be any confusion - the grandchildren are much better looking... Anon_e_mouse Jr., a.k.a. Russell, can be found by following that link off the page... and for those who might be interested in some current Grand Canyon Railway and BNSF shots, follow the link that says Arizona - March 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I liked the other photo better - the one where you appear to be touching the third rail.:-)
Heh. But that was 30 years ago. Don't look anything like that now. :)
That makes two of us.:-)
Can you specify how a rider can distinguish between R32 and R32A. I Know the R32GE has the border around the LED sign.
Yup, I finally got up the nerve to go to Smith Haven Mall.
I took the bus(es) to Hicksville and got the 10:04am Port Jefferson train. This was a through train, and the double decker was waiting on the middle track. We departed ontime, and soon after clearing the "divide" we breezed right on to Syosset. Lots of LIPA high tension wires abound the whole way. I've never been east of Hicksville. After Syosset things get quite scenic, lots of woods. Wide open fields before Huntington (we skip Cold Spring Harbor).
Going through Huntington there is the yard where we crawl. We stop at the westbound platform, then proceed. The line is only one track thereafter, but there are "passing sidings" along the way. Really feels very rural once you get past Northport. There is a clearing (ROW) of some sorts east of Northport, I think there's buried power cables there (from Northport plant). The stretch between Northport and KIngs Park is very fast, and scenic. It's not to often taht I'm on a train that is literally going through the middle of woods, plus some pine barrens east of Kings Park.
After Kings Park it was slow, with many curves, plus a wait at Smithtown. After about 50 minutes we arrive in St.James. It felt so rural, and this is where I got off. The track aren't fenced at all, and run right along a road. I walked down this road where I headed for the trek to Smith Haven. I made a right and headed down Moriches road for the mall. It was a long, but nice walk. To my suprise there was a sidewalk, and you pass through a residential area and an open space that seems to go on forever.
Finally after about 40 minutes I cross Nesconset and into the mall. I like that mall, it's alot less sophisticated than Roosevelt Field.
I headed back around 3pm to allow extra time (and take the walk a little slower). I got the 4:23pm train which was right on time. It was crowded though, lots of students (and lots of mystical ones too) from Stony Brook. We also had to wait at Smithtown and just before Northport on a passing siding for an eastbound train.
Got the view looking south this time, and the only fast spot was between Kings Park and Northport, but still a nice ride. Also I noticed that the LIPA high tension wires on the ROW are NJ-style between the Sunken Meadow Pkwy and Northport. I thought the thing was broken on the train it said "Jamaica". But when we got to Huntington the train does NOT go out of service, it goes express to Jamaica. It's a good idea, especially for the many students from Queens that go to Stony Brook. So I got off and got an electric train that made local stops. Definately much more rough of a ride. Still we managed some speed between Syosset and Hicksville. Got off at Hickville and made the bus back. Trip time each way about 3.5 hours.
I really like the Port Jefferson line though. It has some fast spots, and is very scenic, plus I like all those high tension wires. Also to note platforms are much longer than on the Oyster Bay line. All in all a great experience. Someday I'll have to ride the Montauk line. Now that must be RURAL!
John -
If you could save up enough dough for a trip to Atlantic City (NJT to Trenton, SEPTA to 30th Street, NJT to AC), you'd see (on the AC leg) city, suburbs, exurbs, farms, woods/pine barrens, sandy soil scrub forest, salt water marshes and glitzy casinos (free bus from train station to casinos). A most interesting all-day trip.
I agree, the Pt. Jefferson line is a pretty scenic ride in spots. Yet it's not used at anything close to capacity, even at rush hour most trains have quite a bit of available seating. I guess the lure of Ronkonkoma is just too strong.
Well as I said the train going back was crowded, but this was reverse commuters, mostly students from Stony Brook.
Most people opt for Ronkonkoma because it's a bigger station and a quicker ride I guess, but the Pt.Jeff line is not bad.
I like it much better than the Oyster Bay line.
That mall is a very good place to visit. It's pretty interesting people from the boroughs go to Stonybrook. I guess the city doesn't have institutes of higher learning compatible to Stonybrook.
<< I guess the city doesn't have institutes of higher learning compatible to Stonybrook.>>
NYU? Columbia? What are they, chopped liver?
One drawing point of SUNY Stony Brook is that as a state school, the tuition is much, much lower than at private universities like Columbia.
Ok I forgot them. That's because they're very LIBERAL!
What college is not liberal? How the hell can you even have 18-22 year olds that aren't liberal?
How the hell can you even have 18-22 year olds that aren't liberal?
Obviously you haven't met my older son (shortly to turn 21) - or my younger one (age 15), for that matter. I'm more liberal than either of them, and there are many who would classify at least certain of my views as Neanderthal. Out of four children, the only liberal I've raised is my younger daughter, and I'm confident she'll outgrow it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HOW ABOUT THEY PRESERVE THE REDBIRDS?
Please delete post number 216313 i made a mistake on it
The Port Jefferson Line is beautiful. I used to ride it between Hicksville and Port Jefferson when I was visiting my then-girlfriend (now wife) in Miller Place and I didn't have access to a car. The ride east of Syosset, through the dense woods and rolling hills of Huntington, Smithtown, and the Stony Brook-Setauket-Port Jeff area. is lovely, especially when there is foliage (which has finally grown back--I love the spring!) I recommend riding it all the way. The last leg between St. James and Port Jefferson may be the most beautiful part.
:-) Andrew
John, why didn't you make this an all Bus-Talk trip? You could have gotten the N-79 at Hicksvliie to the Walt Whitman Mall, transferred to the S-54 towards Patchogue, gotten off at the Huntington Square Mall on Jericho Tpke / Larkfield Road and taken the S-58 from its starting point out to the mall ? You would have gotten there by next week but at least sampled Suffolk Transit.
Looking forward to seeing everyone from Sub-Talk at Shoreline tomorrow on Members' Day.
Be sure to save some room at the buffet for the two sheet cakes I'm bringing up there from a local Danish bakery here on LI.
Hart Bus f/k/a 9306 WF
Thanks Alan! Are those cakes tax-deductible?
LOL. It wouldn't hurt trying.
I wouldn't be joining everybody on this trip :-( I'm finishing up my drafting class at NYU this Saturday. Have fun everybody.
Enjoy,
Paul.
And I'll be Instructing "newbies" at Seashore, where it's high MUD SEASON.
Yes as a contribution to a charitable organization. However, they are not deductible around your waistline.
See everyone in about 3 1/2 hours.
I wish I could be there with you folks. Have a good time, and please report back on the day's events here at SubTalk......
-Stef
It was a great day, with mild temp. so no one worked up a sweat ;-)
Lots of members took advantage of the good weather & chance for non-operators to get in some handle time on their favorite car.
Al's sheet cakes were ALMOST to beautiful to eat.
I got to chat with many SubTalk friends, incl. Anon-e-mouse, Larry Redbird and others. Plus the class of 2001 & 2000 were well represented (new operators). Newbee Doris looked right at home behind the controls of the several trollies & subway cars she got to operate this day ... she admitted to us that she was a bit of a Tom Boy in her youth, maybe this is why she seems to enjoy this hobby so much.
Many of the classic trolleys were out for a spin, inlc. #316, a beautifully restored 3rd Ave/Union Ry hand brake car from 1895 and our 1923 Peter Witt from Toronto even made one of her rare trips to Short Beach & back. On the rapid transit side the BU Gate car made several trips, as did the R-9/Hi-V train. Lou from Brooklyn, Doris & I got to power the PCC down the line (Lou & Doris got to do in in forward).
P.S. for Stef, the R-17 made her move to Barn 3, so it's back to stripping & painting again ... She's now on the same track as the H&M Tube car, which is also coming along nicely in her own restore job.
Mr t__:^)
No rocket rides on 6688, I take it. How's the paint stripping coming along?
We're just ready to start again. Over the Winter they had several cars in the shop for various reasons. Plus the R-17 got put in Barn 2 to make these moves easier, e.g. the W-3 Crane came out of that spot in Barn 2 for some much needed PM work (she, the "Shunter" & the "Line Car" are the main MOW cars at Branford so need a little attention every once in a while). Now the R-17 is in Barn 5 where it possible to draw an elect line or move her to the back of the shop as necessary.
BTW, another great thing about this place ... all three of the above mentioned MOW cars are "part of the collection" but they still get to do some work. The Shunter has a add-on, not authentic, box on the back. She has become a tool and jack of all trades car, and she's lots of fun to drive too ... you're up high off the ground, in the open & have to hold on for dear life when you apply power (she was just a yard tug at Montreal Tramways ... I call her a "kit-bashed" car since she was put togather from parts of various cars vs. bought in one piece from a mfg.). Saturday the BMTman was at the controls as we moved a 16 footer into place ... now if that's not a scary thought I don't know what is !
Mr t__:^)
Oh, I'd say careening down the Franklin Ave. shuttle on a gate car doing 50 mph as it approaches the S curve at Prospect Park, er, Malbone St. would rank up there.:-)
LOL .... another Rim Shot !
Seriously, my grandson enjoyed the front porch of our BU Gate Car at a slightly slower speed this past Saturday. I think it was Hart Bus - Al at the controls ... no it was his colleague who came specially to drive his old friend.
Mr t__:^)
According to the MSTS Yahoo Club and Amazon.com, that is the latest date. It had been May 25th a few weeks ago.
Anyone know where beta versions are available? They will probably crash my computer but if I ever decided to risk it, where might I download it?
Thanks, in advance.
It is easy, when one feels burned, to start casting blame. My publisher has admitedly not been the most timely in matters of filling out orders and there is a lot in regards to its dealings with me that I have found reason to question. That said, let it be made clear that in spite of all this, I can do nothing but sing its praises for it gave "A Tale of Ten Cities" a chance when no one else would. The joy of seeing your first book published is unmatched and I would not trade even a year of these headaches in exchange for a moment of the thrill that that event (publication) brought forth. Suffice to say, I feel that though they liked the book, they simply lacked the background to market it effectively. Mass transit caters to a select group of people and unless you have some experience in dealing with it, then it is impossible to really identify the proper audience and plan your marketing strategy accordingly. I am not one to stay angry for long and bitterness is not part of my vocabulary. Giving written expression to something you love is the highest form of self fulfillment and I would urge each of you to write; to attempt to share your insights and observations with an audience far larger than the one we have here. For when we cut through the technical details, what we are all talking about is a system designed (in theory at least) to improve the lives of people. That's what mass transit is all about; moving the masses and making lighter the load of the world.
Eric Dale Smith
I congratulate you on your achievement. Regardless of how well this book sold, no one can take away the achievement itself. Bravo!
When I was a year out of high school, I published a historical board wargame. It sold 1,000 copies in hobby shops and I made very little money on it in royalties. It also cost me two quarters' worth of grades at UCLA because I was busy typing manuscripts at 3AM instead of sleeping or studying for chemistry and biology classes.
Looking back on it, was it worth the trouble? I have no regrets (though better time management would indeed have helped me).
No regrets on my writing and self publication of "They Moved The Millions" Exceept for the 1996 reprint...one too many...it was moderately profitable, the last is a break even. Did it my own way and writing style.
Some people liked it a few didn't; I made a few friends that contacted me after reading the book. Guess the biggest gripe was the paper used, but then it kept the price down.
Ed,
For the record. I bought the 1985 edition and I liked it and still do.
Allan
That's right, aspects of the pcc are clearly seen in the new Newark City Subway Kinki Sharyo LRV!
Taken 4/26
-Dan
*VERY* cool shot, amigo ... NJT might be interested in that pic ...
NICE shot, Dan!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
hey dan... that really is a neat shot... was it planned or accidental?... if planned, you have a poetic touch... likewise, your shot of the attempted coupling of the 2 types of cars has a very interesting mood... pictures that have a voice of their own are really powerful...
You should look into submitting that shot to some of the rail magazines. Definately submit it to Railpace.
-Hank
Excellent! Talk about the old and new together! We're gonna miss those old PCC'S.
Chuck Greene
Great shot !
Bill "Newkirk"
Photos not that bad. I can see a PCC in the photo look carefully.
Cool shot. I hope that these will not be the end of The PCC's, since I e-mailed N.J. Transit my suggestion of sending them down to A.C., but if that doesn't happen, at least there will still be PCC's here in Philly (even if it's only once-a-year during the holiday season).
Within the month the 12 ex-Shaker Heights PCC's will begin delivery to BROOKLYN. I will post when the first car is due to arrive, so you guys can snap some pics. By that time also 3303 will be outside and be able to take short trips on the pier ROW. So PCC's will be here in the NY area for some time to come.
The 12 cars will be rebuilt and used to support the new line being built from Red Hook to Atlantic Ave., and to the Brooklyn Bridge Park. Stay tuned, its going to be interesting.
[The 12 cars will be rebuilt and used to support the new line being built from Red Hook to Atlantic Ave., and to the Brooklyn Bridge Park. Stay tuned, its going to be interesting]
Brooklyn Bridge Park? Where is that? Where are the tracks? I live on the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge, but I'm not aware of this park. I know there is a park called Fulton Landing State Park in Brooklyn where the Jay Street Connecting Railroad tracks are, but nothing else. Bob Diamond used to run his trolley around there. Will he run it there again? I've seen his Red Hook PCC line, but it is very short, about two city blocks.
-Dan
Yes, our present trackage is very short, about 1/4 mile right now, coming right to the curb line of the end of Connover St. Since we have the permits to build and operate trolleys on the streets of Brooklyn, NY, it is a matter of getting going on it. Negotiating the purchase and transport of the 12 PCC's is taking up alot of our time, and negotiating with the city on the line extension from Red Hook into downtown takes more time. We have also been finishing up 3303 and prepping Oslo #3 for operations in May.
FYI - Brooklyn Bridge Park is the land presently between Fulton Landing and Atlantic Avenue that was recently purchased by the City Of New York. We attended and presented at a meeting two Mondays ago with the various civic groups and agencies working on what this park is going to be, and the affect on Atlantic Ave. between Columbia St. and Flatbush Ave, and the surrounding neighborhoods. Since the major concerns are traffic calming and general transportation issues, the trolley line was warmly recieved.
Stay tuned.
That is so absolutely cool that you guys are planning to do all this. Almost makes me wish I was living in the city again to be able to help out. Here's hoping the city actually allows this to go ... your example will serve well to hopefully move other parts of the city in this direction as well ... hat's off to ya.
Good for you. Anything that helps bring back Brooklyn stands tall with me since I once lived there. A baseball stadium in Coney Island, a new trolley line, a new park, yuppies revitalizing various neigborhoods. That's great. It goes a long way to reversing what had been happening to Brooklyn the previous 40-plus years. Keep up the good work.
Have you a capital plan? Have you an endowment?
With no respect at all for its elders, Newark City Subway Kinki Sharyo #107 tries (unsuccessfully) to mate PCC #25 which obviously does not have the proper anatomy.
-Dan
It looks like the attempted coupling was in the rear! [HHH]
In the rear -- That's more like KINKY Sharyo
Aw c'mon, leave 'em, alone ! Spring is here, the boids are tweetin', love is in the air ! Give 'em their privacy.
Bill "Newkirk"
have a bigger Photo of the japanees train tring to mate with the PCC?
It tried to couple up in the "rear"? I guess that's what the KINKY stands for in their name!!! LOL
Well, it just goes to show you that size DOES matter.
Greetings to all.
Washington DC's Metrorail system has recently celebrated it's 25th anniversary. WMATA has published a book on the system titled "Metro at 25". It is an excellent reference and time line of urban transportation development in Washington DC. It contains a lot of pictures of the construction, operation, maintenance and the people of and that use Metro in Washington, DC.
ISBN 0-9708719-0-2
Do you have any idea what they want for it and is it generally available, or just locally ?
Mr t__:^)
In fact, you can purchase the book at www.wmata.com.
Chaohwa
I found it here...
http://motorinstructor.tripod.com/r-143.htm
I am going up to 207th st yard on Monday. My wife just gave my permition to go, since it is my vocation anyway.
Robert
Interesting pictures....I thought the seats would be blue like the R142s, but it looks like they are seafoam green instead. -Nick
I've seen them in blue, red, and green. All on different occasions.
ok...so I am not hallucinating, cuz I thought I some R143 cars with blue as well...are we gonna have a rainbow assortment like the R110A? :-) -Nick
The ones I've seen have been maroon.
I think they're going to start with #8101. This will be different than the last (that would be R68A) pattern, the photo I saw had the ODD NUMBER car up front.
wayne
What do you meen differnet then the R68A. If you meen that they started with 5000 your roung. The R68A started with 5001, so the R143's starting with 8101 is in the same pattern.
Robert
The seats in one car that I saw in a picture are seafoam green. It would be interesting to see other R-143s with maroon or blue seats.
BMTJeff
I have seen both the blue and seafoam seats...if there are other pics out there with the other color seats I would love to see them. -Nick
I think in last month's Transit Transit, or somewhere around then, they had a section dedicated to Art in Transit and they had a 2 second clip of the R143 interior with red seats.
If there are any pictures posted on the web showing the R-143 with maroon or red seats please let me know.
BMTJeff
Here is a 142 with maroon seats
http://www.geocities.com/transitalk_8/Trevor3/MTA_R142A_GWBg.JPG
Please clarify. Is this a 143 or 142a. If 142A, what's the car number?
Thanks !!1
This is Kawasaki R-142A Car #7209, I took that pic when it was chilling out at the George Washington Bridge during a delivery!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
http://www.geocities.com/whiteboy36.geo/slide2.jpg
This site had the picture with blue seats, and I had made it my wallpaper for a while, (and was surprised to see the newer picture with green seats) but it's down now.
Does anyone know what part of the 207th st overhaul shop was given to the Dept. of Buses for one of there CMF sites? Did they have to remove some tracks for this transfer?
The track were keep in. It was only a temp move. The buses are gone now. They are putting in new switches into the leand of the two track last time I was up at 207th yard.
Robert
A section of the barn between the main shop and the regular overhaul barn was temporarily given to buses but they have since left. A small section of track was taken up (about 50 feet) on each track (15, 16, 17 tks.) outside of the buildings driveway but has since been replaced. Funny thing is that signal control has not resumed on those tracks yet. Moves to and fro must be made with the aid of a signal maintainer
Maryland is afraid of the asbestos.
Daily News story
Why is that we live in a world where the stupid people rule over everything?
Maybe I'll move back to Alabama.
Mostly because the media has put the FEAR of asbestos in the great unwashed. Blame people like Peter Angelos, who after making Mega$$$ suing the companies that made asbestos products is now trying to do the same thing to cell phones.
Looks like the 'birds will go to the torch after all. (after asbestos abatement)
Doesn't anyone realize that wet asbestos is harmless?
-Hank
I do! Most environmental scientists do! Most environmentalists do not! Most politicians aren't sure, don't care and will suppost the most vocal group.
Sometimes people call themselves "environmentalists," when in fact their actions are harmful to the environment (but politically correct, of course).
I like that last paragraph in the article in particular where the EPA and Army Corp can prove that the old cars pose no hazard. It took us decades of deaths to realize that asbestos kills. Is it worth assuming that wetting the asbestos will prevent it from becoming airborne? If so, then put 'em in the drink. How do you PROVE that asbestos won't kill here with all the damage it has done?
Asbestos + Water = polluted drinking water (??)
....we know how Politicians get...
That would make sense to some extent only if ocean water wasn't already polluted by NATURE (salt). And there are no desalinization plants in the area, except when ships with such equipment on board sail through.
Don't forget the ARSENIC. :)
See my earlier post on this same topic here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anybody know where can i find photos of the NYCTA subway
entrances?. Any info will be appreciated.
How are the R-143 subway cars getting onto TA property? Are they being trucked in to the 207 St. yard or The NY&A R/R going to push them to Linden yard like they did with the R-142's.......
I think it's going to be the same way the R142As got here. They'll probably be making their visit to Yonkers as well and will be trucked to 207 Street.
207 has a car floot ramp. I think they are coming down the river. I will find out on Monday. I plane to be there.
Robert
207 yard hasn't had their car float ramp for a long time. It was located at the back of the dump (58tk.) and has been fenced off with only a cutout of the concrete wall being the only trace of it ever being there. Sounds like they will be trucked in and brought to the 215 st. entrance where they will be placed on 65tk. to start their transit careers. A diesel is being brought over this weekend I believe from Westchester yard to make the moves into the yard when they are placed on 65tk. Somebody said Monday?
Check the following site and click onto the R143 section: http://motorinstructor.tripod.com/
When I went to that web page there was nothing there besides the headline. No pictures, no text on the R-143. The R-142 section is great.
I don't know what to tell you. I just went back into that site and I got the pictures and the text on the R143. The site is a very slow loading.
While passing through Northern Blvd. Station at about 11:00AM this morning, I saw an "artist" leaving his "tag" on one of the turnstiles at the part-time Manhattan-bound entrance. It was a male, average build, late teens or early 20s, Asian or Hispanic (my train was moving on the Jamaica-bound track, so I couldn't get a complete view of him).
Who should be alerted about this? NYPD (to catch the guy so Rudy can give him a reward)? Division of Stations??
Hmmmmmmm! You observed a graffiti vandal at 11:00 AM and at 5 PM you are wondering who to notify. What I think you should do is go back now and see if he's still there. If he is, call the LAPD.
[You observed a grafitti vandal at 11:00AM and at 5 PM you are wondering who(m) to notify.]
My fault for not being clear enough. Actually, at 11:00 I wasn't in a position to formally notify anybody. I should have asked what to do IN GENERAL when witnessing such activity.
(BTW, I still think Rudy would give the kid a reward for vandalizing something - in this case, the subway system - that he neither likes nor controls.)
You have some choices: you can alert station personnel where you get off; and/or you can find out which preicinct or transit district it is and call them. Is this station considered LIC or Jackson Heights? Call the appropriate precinct, and ask to speak to a detective. Give him/her as complete a description as you can of this individual, and thelocation of the tag - they'll take it from there.
And thanks for caring.
No they wont, District 28 aint gonna lift a finger, If you're Lucky it'll go over the radio and some unit "mobile" will respond upon completion of the 30 other jobs he has on the list, Oh yea go tell the booth, im sure the token clerk will care, if he does he'll call the district and the cop will probably forget the booth number from where the call took place " N 2..whaaa" Make sure you dont call 911 if you see these things, dont waste their F***ing time. They got got more important things to do then protect your precious trunstile, If you want the number of District 34/Vandal Squad Detectives (718)266-6600, im sure they love hearing from concerned Railfans
Thanks. If I see a graffitti artist at work, I'll snap a photo and bring it to NYPD in person.
Hmmm... funny how you should say that. There's a Mexican-Korean mix in my school who likes to tag up the lunch tables.
What part of town is that in? Let me take a guess it's either Flushing or Woodside.
Shame to see kids continuing to deface property.
I think the song "Whip it" by Devo is appropriate! :-0
I remember him discussing where he got off to go to school.
And so your guess is WRONG.
MUHAHAHAHA!
Oh and by the way, it's a magnet school. It represents the best and the brightest from all of New York (among those who couldn't get in to my alma mater :-)
I'm sorry I had to answer for somebody else, but there's no reason to wait for R68A to return.
Well if it's near Northern Blvd it's NEAR Woodside, since it's only the second stop west after Roosevelt ave.
Why would you think it's near Northern Boulevard? Or in Queens at all?
Nah. The school is Brooklyn Tech. I think he lives on the F Line in Brooklyn.
"Northern Blvd. Station "
Brooklyn Tech? explain.
I think we already covered that the school is nowhere near Northern Boulevard.
Not the best of neighborhoods???
OH yea Tell him I said hi, f***in 5 hours later, yea go call Miami Vice
There is a toll-free number: 1-877-NYCT-555. Give the info and there will be follw-up.
thats soo cute "there will be follw-up."
Could somebody tell me if any R10 Pullman Green appeared on the "A" between 1985-89 even if they were assigned to "C" for their last line?
Also did any R30/30A Redbirds appeared on the "A" between 1989-93 even if they were assigned to the "C" for their last line?
No and no. Never rode R10's on the A, but I can only attest to this after mid 1985, not before. The slants ruled the A until 1984, when the R44's and R38's currently assigned took over completely. I'm not sure why the slants completely disappeared from the A in the first place.
The A line used slant R40's and R44's up until about 1987-88. The R38's before GOH ran on the B.
I beg to differ. I never rode a slant on the A. Since I began railfanning regularly in late 1985, I'd have at least seen one. The R38's were almost completely on the A at this time. A few did operate on the B before the bridge flip of 4/86.
My recollection of slants on the A consists only of watching the trains descend down the ramp near Grant Ave. from the McDonalds located at 76th St. and Liberty Ave, which I frequented as a kid. I always noticed those funky slant cars on the A. I don't remember seeing any after I started junior high in late 1984. Not exactly a definitive way to argue what car assignments were in the past, but I can say I was a very observant kid. I knew my subway cars.
There was nothing more uncomfortable than running a Slant R40 over the flats. Even with cab heat (and they never gave out much), all that wind finding its' way into the cab.....not good!
Slants (pre GOH) were assigned to the "A" until at least 1985. I've seen and rode on them in that year, many times I took a "B" to West 4th for a slant "A" to 34th Street for Amtrak. This was the time the Slants started to go to the "B", when the "B" became a responsibility of Coney Island, and not 168 or 207.
"AA" and "B" used to share equipment at the northern terminal.
That's possible, since I never started railfanning until fall 1985, and only in a limited amount. In fact, I began riding the A regularly in 9/85 almost daily from Rockaway Blvd to Far Rock, Rockaway Park, or Lefferts, then to ENY for the J to my home. I called it "taking the looooonng way home". LOL. Not a single trip I took in this period was on a slant. All R44/R38, or R10 if I rode the H.
They started going to the B a few years before that. It was a slow transition, ending around this time. By 1986 they were completely on the southern div,., and spread to most of the other lines there.
So the AA/B was still based in 207th until that time? I though it transferred to CI upon the opening of Chrystie St. Especially given the equipment it used.
No, never had slants on the "B" before 1985. I used to live a block from New Utrecht Avenue El and wasted many a day on the roof writing down R38 and R42 MU numbers.
We had R38s and R42s. Once in a while a R27/R30 (including the time of the bridge flip). During 1985 and going into 1986 is when the Slants first came. In December 1997, the very first GOH slants came on the West End. I was there at the celebration with David L. Gunn at Coney Island when I was with the Transit Museum. Those were the days!
The "B" actually had 207 as well as Coney. It traded equipment with the "AA" which was a 207 assigned line.
In fact, the "B" has several put ins: Coney Island, 38th Street Yard, and Concourse. One of the few lines that has three yards.
Yes they were on the B, and before 1983. Because that year, the first two began appearing on the D, and they had been on the B for a while. (they were gradually "spreading" over the system). The R-38's disappeared off of the BMT in early '82 (to go permanently to the A), and that's probably when the 40's started coming over. (I don't remember both 38's and 40's being on the B at the same time. But they were on the A together for a few years after that). Perhaps if the B was split between yards as you say, then they may have come off the B and shifted mainly to the AA for a while c1985. I wasn't riding that part of the system those years.
On the openning credits of Night Court, you can clearly see a slant R40 on the (A), clearly from the post-1979 route color system.
:-) Andrew
Yup. Night Court debuted in September 1984, so I'd assume the opening credits were filmed earlier that year. The slants probably ran thru 1984 on the A, but I can definatley state they were gone by September 1985.
Yeah, I can remember that they weren't on there long after I started seeing the opening to that show.
Exactly. Slants didn't come to the "B" (from the "A") until late 1985 - early 1986.
I rode on a slant R-40 A on Easter Sunday in 1978 along CPW northbound. This train SMOKED; every local station was a blur. I thought, the R-10s have met their match. As disappointed as I was that the Thunderbirds were no longer Top Banana on the route they will forever be synonimous with, the slants were a worthy successor.
I did luck out and catch an A of R-10s once after that, during rush hour sometime in 1979. For one day, at least, those cars were back where they belonged.
When I worked the A (early 1980s), I always enjoyed the slants. On that express dash, they were very fast. I spent a lot of time on the CC, so I got my fill of the R-10s. In spite of their age, and the deferred maintainence, they were still rugged pieces of equipment. I never ran any R1-9s on the CPW dash. Although I did run them a couple of times on a work train. It was kinda weird, them painted yellow and all.
I managed to get in a few R-1/9 rides on the CPW express dash, all on D trains, bull and pinion gears howling away. Once I even caught a D train of R-10s. It sure looked strange to see them sporting D signs, but they thundered along CPW in the same manner they always did. Whenever I'd board an A train at 59th in those days, I'd silently urge the conductor to hurry up and close the doors so we could get going. He didn't keep them open very long. Soon enough, the motorman wrapped it around and we were off to the races.
I'd love to see a train of R-10s pull in on the northbound express track at 59th St. today.
Mmmmm,
I'd love to see some R-10s too. The rolling stock that they're bringing in now is nothing like the old stuff. I keep using the word "rugged" because it fits. The sounds, the 'feel' of them, the design. I have been daydreaming lately about standing at 59th or 42nd street and hearing that familiar bull and pinion sound as a shiny olive green train of r-9s pull in, grind to a halt, Psssssht, doors open, click-clack, doors close, off we go! Five or so years from now, with CBTC, R-142, 143, 160 (those damn whiney AC motors), no front window, equipment that looks like rolling Pepsi cans...the allure of the trains, the hobby part of it-will be lost for me. It's a shame, but nothing lasts forever. I'm glad I was a part of it.
To both MotormanMarc and Steve B-8AV EXP:
I can understand the admiration and affection to the both of you (and others) towards the R-10's as well as mine, being they are my all-time favorite subway car fleet. In short, the R-10's are still sorely missed by yours truly, and riding the "A" line today (or any shared portion of that route) for myself has lost most of the excitement and thrills while journeying without them.
Yes, like all great things that had to come a cyclic end, I am truly grateful to had live an exciting era in my lifelong railfan hobby as to be most closely associated and fondly with the R-10's and the IND "A" line (still my favorite route) particularly during its most glorious and fantastic era that will never ever be duplicated or relived again. Thankfully, I still have my greatest memories of the cars with me to last through the rest of my lifetime.
-William A. Padron
Three words about the R-10s sums it up for me: sheer brute speed. They were tailor-made for the A. It was a match made in heaven. When they got rolling along CPW, you got the feeling that nothing could stop them. Add to that their higher-than-normal noise level ( it honestly wasn't that bad during their heyday) and you had an unbeatable combination. Fast compressors, fast doors - the R-10s had it all. William is right - there will never be another car like that, nor will the A line ever be the same again.
I only wish they'd kept the teal-and-white racing stripe paint scheme for a longer period of time. That was my all-time favorite.
William,
You are the man when it comes to R-10s. Your knowledge about that gerat piece of equipment in unequalled. I have great memories running the R-10s out in the Rockaways on the CC line back in the early '80s.
For you and Steve thanks for the memories and of course the plug for the R1-9. I'm almost beginning to feel nostalgic about the R10's after all the years I couldn't stand them. Funny how things look to different generations: i was calling R32, R38 etc beer cans or if you wish Pepsi cans. Hard to believe its been that long... a lot of people would give their eye teeth for an R32 anyway, and to me they were enemy (even if I had to respect them). Best wishes, ed.
Hey Ed,
Well, I think that the equipment is going through a very radical change now. I realize that the R32, for example, was different than a Standard. But there were still some common threads. They both had a 'railroad' sound to them, had a front window, all of the 'R' series had the arch roof... What you have now is no front window, whiney AC sound, no click-clack wheel sounds, bright lights. The equipment has made a bigger leap in overall looks. How many of us started out as wide-eyed kids at the front window? Now, that's gone. Too bad...
M/M Marc
R-10's did not appear in A Service. By 1990's cars where assigned to particular lines and where not used in other services unless service changes accurred. However that last of the unmodified R-27/30/30A cars operated in 1987 on the A service for about two weeks. I saw them at 168 Street while I was working the K. They also operated on that line for about the same time, I operated one on one of my trips.
I remeber riding unmodified R27/30's on the A during the LIRR strike in 1987.
I remember seeing R10s on the A occasionally, after the C,K to C merger in Dec. 88. They may not have been assigned on a regular basis as they were rare.
They surely made a huge sound bypassing the CPW stations.
Also the last night before the above change, I saw some R40Ss on the K & B. It looked very weird because back then the K & B were mostly R42s .
Now you know why I affectionately refer to the R-10s as Thunderbirds and Thundering Herd. Yes, you'd get quite an earful when they would roar past a CPW local stop at full speed. It was only when they were near the end of their careers that they were painfully loud. They weren't that bad 30+ years ago when I used to ride on them all the time on the A.
I remembered seeing the one train of rebuilt slant 40's sitting in 207th before the change. I wonered what it was doing there isolated from the rest of them. I figured maybe it just came down from rebuilding, but then maybe this was the one used for the transition of the last day of K service.
We did run at least two trains of green machines as specials from 207 Street to Euclid Avenue during the Williamsburg Bridge closing in the late eighties. Also, the JFK Express ran eight cars making A express stops to Howard Beach. During that period before the 1989 removal of graffiti cars, one R27 train normally assigned to C service ran on the D line to 34th Street and 6th Avenue.
Just a quick note, since we have been posting on this...
The on-airport guideway appearsto be complete and station structures are well advanced. Guideway to Howard Beach is complete and the station is nearing completion.
The Van Wyck guideway is complete through Linden Blvd. A separate section crossing over the northbound Van Wyck to Atlantic Avenue has been erected but is still in scaffolding; this structure extends a few pylons south on the Van Wyck.
Testing of rail cars on the system may begin by early fall.
When is actual service supposed to start?
Winter 2002 for the Howard Beach and inter-terminal service; spring of '03 for the Jamaica leg.
Today (4/29) I checked out Airtrain. The maintenance facility is by the service road of the Nassau Expwy before you enter the Nassau Expwy for the Van Wyck to JFK. I saw no cars outside, so I asume they are in the building.
The NY Post article had a pic here with two cars #204 & #205 outside. They look like a cross between a R-40 slant and SOAC ! One big windshield and one windshield wiper. It's gonna take some time for some of us to get used to their looks.
Since there was no (A) service at Howard Beach, I drove near the station and saw the AIRTRAIN terminal being constructed on the other side of the tracks. You would probably get a better view from the platform, but the (A) hasn't run on weekends because of some trackwork. I did see some 4-car R-44 (S) shuttle trains running from Far Rockaway, did these terminate at Board Channel or Rockaway Park ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The shuttle runs from Rock Park to 1 stop towards lefferts I forget station name, then another train takes you to Rockaway Blvd. then the rest of the way
Thank you. What you report is being closely followed. Where is the line supposed to come into the Jamaica LIRR station? There are drawings of the station facilty on the Airtrain website, but yours truly cannot physically locate Airtrain on or over the Jamaica LIRR Station. Please help! Gratias!
Actually, I don't remember. There is a beautiful 3-D model at the AirTrain Jamaica (at Archer and 148th St, I believe) office showing the exact layout. If you're in New York, check it out.
I took these pictures from an eastbound LIRR train today. They were taken just west of Jamaica Station and are looking south down the Van Wyck Expressway. You can see the Airtrain ROW turning towards the east (left in the picture) to be parallel with, and south of, the LIRR.
Great pictures!
Hey Bob, how did you manage to get a clean window ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I had a paper towel handy!
You can see the Van Wyck doing its usual, packed to the gills.
:-) Andrew
Looks like the support pillars on the curve are wide enough to widen the angle to handle 75-foot trains (just joking, Ron).
Beware the wrath of an insulted R-46! :-)
A Conrail Shared Assets train with hot brakes caused a five mile brush fire in Bensalem, Bucks County (PA) along the northeast corridor. Firefighters from 25 companies prevented spread of the fires away from railroad property.
Trenton Times story
Is this caused by sparks flying out into brush? Is vegetation close or on the ROW or ties?
I'm unaware of any brush between the rails on the corridor, so I assume it's the vegetation by the side of the ROW.
Years ago on the Main Line I saw a shop train of MP54's headed to Paoli with a hotbox starting fires in Villanova and Radnor. I called the Villanova FD to report a fire 300 yards west of the station and was told that someone already had reported the fire 300 yards EAST of the station. There turned out to be over 20 fires along several miles of the Main Line in several communities. I told the FD what started the fires. The local paper subsequently reported that youthful vandals started them.
Hate to tell you how many fires were started by exhaust sparks from Montana Rail Link's locomotives during my 12 year career; no I can't enumerate but we had enough of them!
Hate to tell you how many fires were started by exhaust sparks from Montana Rail Link's locomotives during my 12 year career; no I can't enumerate but we had enough of them! [Brush fires that is]
Went to Flushing today expecting that due to the G.O. the Main street station would be closed. Well it was not!! Trains were running normally, and the only sign of construction were track workers around Main street.
Also had a brief ride on an R142 6 train from 51st to 59th. A not in service 6 train stopped at 51st before our train came. This was also an R142 with "not in service" paper signs. The train must have been testing. It stopped, opened doors on the wrong side, then closed them and left. People are hilarious. They said "hey" and groaned when the train left. I did get in front car for the brief ride on the R142 train I got on and nudged a woman away from the front window (she had her back to the cab, so she wasn't looking out). It's like the window on the R46's, you can see through the cab window (as long as the T/O doesn't block it).
Also lucked out at 60/Lex and got an R32 N through the 60th street tube for a fast ride.
Needless to say I was just so happy the 7 G.O. wasn't on. Maybe they finally realized it is too big of an inconvenience.
Do re-usable Metrocards need to be cleaned? Also if one gets wet with water can it cause damage?
I just wonder why some people need to swipe their cards several times for them to work. Don't tell me they need to wipe them with cleaner like tape head! Also how are turnstyle swipers cleaned (they are, aren't they)?
I know this is a stupid question but I was just curious.
That's not a stupid question.
Since the stripe on a Metrocard is magnetic in nature, it can be degaussed, or the information corrupted by liquids which would affect other forms of magnetic media (ATM cards, magnetic tape, computer diskettes, cassette tapes). I would try not to have an ATM card with its magnetic stripe facing a Metrocard and its magnetic stripe in my pocket or wallet so they rub together.
As another poster said, they/we use a pad that comes in a sealed package. For a seriously dirty R/W Head some alchol or solvent may be required.
The MC is designed to go thru the laundry and still work. I've un-bent some with graphics under hot water and found they will sometimes work again, but usually bending, a scratch or a magnet will kill it.
Mr t__:^)
People swipe multiple times because they don't get the hang of it. It takes a while.
Also how are turnstyle swipers cleaned (they are, aren't they)?
They use card shaped pads with cleaning solution. They come in sealed packs like alcohol pads. I found a whole batch lying in a brochure case next to the MVMs at the Shore Parkway exit of the Sheepshead Bay Station.
Metrocards (and their machines) are like tape decks in a way. They need to be cleaned when dust and dirt accumulate I guess, as well as kept away from strong magnetic fields. Dust and dirt on a Metrocard or reader could cause a user to have to swipe multiple times, just like dirt on a tape/or tape head can cause distorted highs and tape hiss.
I still don't want to use a portable CD player (I find them bulky) so cassettes are good enough. As long as you clean the tape heads with alchohol once a month tapes sound fine.
[I still don't want to use a portable CD player (I find them bulky) so cassettes are good enough. As long as you clean the tape heads with alchohol once a month tapes sound fine. ]
And let's not forget the environment portable audio devices are used. Can one really hear the difference between tape and a CD.
Arti
I can't imagine CD "discmans" playing on a Redbird doing 45mph on the Flushing express. With all the jostling those things must skip. Tape units have better anti-shock mechanisms, so they seem to handle better. I always see people having trouble with their "discmans" on the subway. Perhaps MD fares better but it's expensive and not too popular.
Since I like to record various songs and put them together, cassette tapes are still the best for a value-minded person like myself.
I always see people having trouble with their "discmans" on the subway. Perhaps MD fares better but it's expensive and not too popular.
MP3 players might fare better because it's solid state.
The discman I got for free two years ago ($199.95) has read-ahead capability and a 10 second memory. Unless it skips for 10 continuous seconds, you won't hear anything because of the buffer.
Since I like to record various songs and put them together, cassette tapes are still the best for a value-minded person like myself.
CD-RW. Cassettes are an anachronism that needs to go. Now to figure out how to kill VCR tapes.
Now to figure out how to kill VCR tapes.
DVD-RW. But that's a long way in the future, relatively speaking - I doubt we'll see it on a practical, affordable scale for at least ten years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[DVD-RW. But that's a long way in the future, relatively speaking - I doubt we'll see it on a practical, affordable scale for at least ten years. ]
Think of Apple's current offerings, blanks at $10. I can see it a lot closer than 10 years.
Depending what Pig's point is either anti tape or anti analog, DV is quite affordable novadays (price level of hi8 few years ago).
Arti
I'm anti-both, but mainly tape because they have to be wound. I can live with analog.
Think of Apple's current offerings, blanks at $10. I can see it a lot closer than 10 years.
That's for one-shots. The cheapest re-writeables in the current Mac Warehouse catalogue are TDK 2.6GB at $19.99 each, with pricing going up to $69.99 for a Maxell 9.4GB. And the drives they offer range from $499.95 for either of two LaCie models to $669.95 for either of two QPS models (SCSI or FireWire) - and the prices for the QPS models are AFTER a manufacturer's rebate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The cheapest re-writeables in the current Mac Warehouse catalogue are TDK 2.6GB at $19.99 each, with pricing going up to $69.99 for a Maxell 9.4GB]
Mac Warehouse is not the best option for consumables.
Pricewatch gives the best price for 5.2G Type 1 @ $14 and $41 for 9.4GB. DVD-RAM drives start at $250.
But back to the point, the same media (5.2G) was around $50 about 2 years ago....
Arti
Okay, you've seen two photos that include the new Kinki cars, now see the rest at the New facility at Bloomfield NJ. Much thanks to Dave Pirmann for posting them at http://www.nycsubway.org/us/newark/shops/.
-Dan
Hey speaking of Kinki Sharyo The VTA Is ordering some vheicals from Kinki Sharyo. So this will make 4 transit systems to run Kinki Sharyo cars for more info go to lightrail.com
The Diamonds mean Rush hours only. For example I work at the Transit Museum as a volunteer tour guide. Anyway when I go home I usually go to the borough hall station. There u have 2 diamond Rush hour Trains. That means during rush hours I can catch an M, or a 5 at that station. However since today is saturday, no diamonds run on saturday. So if someone were to ask me does the 5 Train stop here at Borough hall? the Answer is not on weekends. Anyway this is to tell people that since its a diamond, that The Train line wouldn't do unless its rush hours. Rush hours are from 6-9am weekdays am rush and pm is 330-8. Anyway I hope I have cleared that up for you.
For further info, please see your local Train operator or Consult with a Fellow Railfan. Thank you for your patronage.
LOL
I don't think diamonds necesarilly mean "rush hours only" antymore. Explain how the 6 and 7 diamond works then. It runs all day weekdays from 6am-ish to 10pm-ish. That's beyond what is considered rush hour.
=)
The use of the diamond is pretty much confined to the part time additional express service (usually toward Manhattan in the AM or AM rush and from Manhattan in the PM or PM rush)when that service is a "zone" express, as opposed to a skip stop express. Skip stop services have a separate designation with a circle, even if they are rush hour only. Example Broadway IRT 1 & 9
The diamond/circle designation really isn't relevant anymore. When it was adopted, there were several rush hour only lines (CC, QB, RR to Chambers St, B to 168th St., N to Whitehall, etc). Today. outside the IRT's peak rush hour express service on the 4, 5, 6 and 7 lines and the skip-stop 1/9, the only rush hour only train left is the Z, which is always shown using a circle. Like the original IND double letter designations for locals, the diamond route's is fast becoming obsolete.
It is not obsolete, it has only changed meaning. The 6 and 7 express still need to be indicated by diamonds, and so will the future Q express.
I meant it was becoming obsolete in it's original and intended form.
Actually, it's original form was for all weekday long. Check out the #7 strip maps in the museum WF car. "QT" and "RR" were shown as diamonds. ("T" may have been also)
I saw the strangest thing today.
I was at 19th and Walnut in Center City Philadelphia today when I saw a bus shelter with an advertisement for a play called "This Is Our Youth". Unmistakably composing the background of the ad was Michael Adler's Manhattan Subway Map featured on this site.
Has anyone else seen it?
That's interesting. Care to gather some more information so that the infringement can be pursued?
I don't think that sinking the "Redbirds" will create the hazard to the enviroment as some enviromentalists are try to lead you to believe. Once the asbestos is underwater how is it going to get into the air. The cars will present a greater hazard if they're scrapped in a normal fashion rather than sinking them. In addition the old subway cars will provide a home for marine life. In my own opinion the benefits will outweigh the hazards.
BMTJeff
But, the dirty word is asbestos, and once the great unwashed hears the dirty word, the pols and media jump right on the bandwagon.
Right now, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland have turned "thumbs down" on the 'birds. Where can they go to be put in Davy Jones' Locker?
Maybe they can sink the "Redbirds" off of Long Island if possible.
BMTJeff
The whole thing has gone too far; every bandwagon they jump on they carry on forever...I wonder when the homes they are building now will be found carcinogenic with all the synthetic materials being used and you won't be able to sell one of them via FHA mortgages, etc. [Luckily they haven't put a ban on older homes with asbestos pipe insulation that I know of...yet] To get rid of walls with lead paint you'd have to gut the whole thing, etc etc etc.]People have nothing else to do but make more rules, bureaucracy that is.
I'm concerned about that too... the enviropanics are guaranteed to overreact to just about anything. My home, constructed sometime between 1690 and 1768 (probably 1756), was upgraded to central heating in 1937, including asbestos insulation around the pipes, and I'm sure there's lead-based paint a layer or two down on the walls. Does it concern me? No. Will I repaint my back door and my living room windowsills before my grandchildren visit the next time? Yes, because the dogs have scratched through the layers, leaving chips loose - and while I doubt even the younger one would peel them off and put them in his mouth, I'm not going to take any chances. But I'm not going to scrape and sand either (since I'd rather not breathe in the dust), I'm simply going to seal and paint.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That could be a problem if they find out that the building materials they are using today turn out to be carcinogenic 20 or 30 years later. However if they're smart new types of building material should be tested before they are used in people's homes.
BMTJeff
Once the citizen hears the word "asbestos", panic sets in. And our governmental suits, for political reasons, wants the citizenry to remain calm on issues like this. Eventhough I have no problem with dumping the redbirds into the drink, I can understand a few peoples concerns. First "dumping". It is one thing when a handful of PATH "K" cars were sunk off the NJ coast a few years ago. But you are talking about sinking over 1,000 Rebirds here. That's a lot of cars! Yes, I know the ocean is deep, but is it simply "off shore dumping"? It will be cheaper to dispose of them in this manner since the asbestos would not have to be removed. For arguments sake, let's say the asbestos has to be removed before sinking. Then the TA will say: "Why bother sinking them now, we'll make money from the scrapper." Sinking the cars for the betterment of marine life may just be a money saving excuse here. WHat about the long term effects of salt water on the many coats of paint the cars received throughout their lives? Any lead in some of that old paint?
It is possible that there is some lead in the very oldest layer(s) of paint. The salt will probably eat away at some of the paint over time. In all likelihood it could be many centuries before the cars decompose underwater. I'm sure that some enterprising people might try to recover some of them for some kind of use. I'm sure the enviromental hazards of sinking the old cars in the ocean is minimal. If the cars have little or no toxic chemicals there shouldn't be an enviromental problem over the long run.
BMTJeff
There's likely more lead in the solder on the copper pipes. Again, I think it's a non-issue environmentally.
It seems likely your'e absolutely right.
Some ocean fish, unfortunately, have manifested the results of pollution. Shark and swordfish, for example, are now "off limits" to pregnant women because high mercury levels are frequently found in the meat. We humans have done some stupid things to our environment, but I have not seen any evidence yet to indicate that sinking old subway cars in the ocean would be one of them.
Do any of you know what specific mechanism is being claimed by the opponents of Redbird Reef as the one governing the supposed harmful impact of the asbestos? Do they claim, for example, that it will leach from the car and disperse, and end up washing on shore within reach of people at low tide?
I admit to being ignorant about the following: Does asbestos float or sink in water?
Does asbestos float or sink in water?
I'm told that asbestos, being a mineral, will sink. Here's some additional information from our government (the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, a part of the Canter for Disease Control), excerpted from the following web page: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/phs9004.html
Asbestos is the name applied to a group of six different minerals (amosite, chrysotile, tremolite, actinolite, anthophyllite, and crocidolite) that occur naturally in the environment. These minerals are made up of long, thin fibers that appear somewhat similar to fiberglass. Asbestos fibers are very strong and are resistant to heat and chemicals. Because of these properties, asbestos fibers have been used in a wide range of products, mostly in building materials, friction products, and heat-resistant fabrics. Because the fibers are so resistant to chemicals, they are also very stable in the environment; they do not evaporate into air or dissolve in water, and they are not broken down over time.
You are most likely to be exposed to asbestos by breathing in tiny asbestos fibers suspended in air. You can also be exposed to asbestos by drinking fibers present in water.
The standard method for safe removal of asbestos is to WET IT DOWN and then scrape it off, so it would seem to me that immersion in water is an excellent way of disposing of it. Somehow I don't think we're likely to be drinking sea water, so even if the asbestos does come loose and float around a little bit, the chances of our ingesting it is extremely small. But try convincing an enviropanic of that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If we did drink seawater, it would be treated to remove salt, the asbestos would also come out.
Thank you. That was very helpful. Great post.
Here's one thought. It seems the only state where they haven't tried to dump the thing is New York. Why not build those reefs off Long Island?
Maybe they're afraid of the Redbirds getting washed on shore during the BIG ONE.
the cars should be sold for scrap , to be recycled
I guess you missed a few dozen posts on the subject. Because of asbestos that has become friable, cutting the cars would cause the asbestos to become airborne. While the amounts of asbestos that actually gets into the atmosphere might be small, the EPA & OSHA have a zero tollerance for the stuff. Therefore, it must be removed before the cars can be scrapped.
The other proposed method of disposal being considered is to sink the cars in the ocean. This is becoming a political football. In reality it is likely a tempest in a teapot since hundreds of obsoleete ships have been sunk for the same purpose. If anything, the amount of asbestos on ships must be dozens of times the levels oon a subway car.
Here's another possibility. Out in the dessert (I believe in Nevada), hundred of unused commercial aircraft are stored. The arid climate keeps them from rusting away. I suppose they could put a thousand subway cars out there and no one would notice.
"Here's another possibility. Out in the desert (I believe in Nevada), hundred of unused commercial aircraft are stored. The arid
climate keeps them from rusting away. I suppose they could put a thousand subway cars out there and no one would notice."
You're right - there is an aircraft boneyard (in Arizona). That's not a bad place to put subway cars.
Yeah, but you store aircraft in the Arizona desert to preserve them to possibly use again, not to just let them rot. Put 1300 'birds out there that are already rotting in service and never touch them again.
Don't think so.
Maybe the 'birds can be sent to the waters off Antartica. Don't think asbestos would be a problem there, but the coat of shipping would be outrageous.
Problems, problems.
Then one or more of them would wind up in an iceberg. Yikes! A Redberg!!
Out in the desert (I believe in Nevada), hundred of unused commercial aircraft are stored. The arid climate keeps them from rusting away. I suppose they could put a thousand subway cars out there and no one would notice.
And an enterprising entrepreneur would create a magical amusement park called "Redbird Land". A couple of 4-track ovals about 20 miles wide with a station here and there oughtta suffice .... :)
--Mark
Put them out in the arid desert -- so long as you're away from a salt flat -- and the rusting does stop, which is why more vintage cars are found in those areas than other places in the U.S.
On the other hand, the harsh sun and temperatures approaching 115 in the summer tend to do a number on all the paint jobs out there if something's left outside too long. Anyone for Pinkbirds?
Bondobirds would be more like it, given all the plastic filler those cars must have.
I sometimes see train operators and bus operators with earpieces in their ear. Are they listening to a walkman or something?
Is it allowed?
If available earpieces are given to RTO employees to plug into their radio. I don't know about any other divisions.
If it's a B/O then it most of the time a radio or a Cellphone.
The earpieces are connected to the portable TA radio. Walkman devices are strictly prohibited.
New tracks are going in at 207 yard as many of you know. 3 tracks will be for work trains in the area that used to be valuable parking space. They are going in to offset delays caused by the closure of the 6 Ave. side of the Manhattan bridge. 61 track will be connected to 1 track (the old loop). 62 track will be connected to 61 track. 63 track will also be connected to 61 track and be located next to the outside wall of the yard (10 Ave.). The garbage dump is finally being worked on. Last I had seen was a big lake in place of the hole they had dug where the platform and 58 track had been. It is comforting that they have decided to fix this famous/infamous problem before a T/O or other employee got hurt. When the project is finished, they will add 57 track between 56 and 58. Rumor has it that the garbage platform my be built elsewhere in the yard. Will keep you posted.
Do you have track diagrams of the new changes
Thank you
Steve
No. But I hope to.
please let me know--thank you
Steve
This is just a rumor but word has it that the new garbage dump will be built in a new location at 207 yd. What I was told is that they will build it along with two new tracks for it (59 and 60 tks.) outside of the current yard. They want to build it where the roadway comes in from 207 St. on the opposite side of the IRT flyover outside of the wall. There used to be a track that went out that way many years ago but has since been removed. The area they want to build is TA property and is fenced in even though it is outside of the wall.
Well its official!!!!!!!! Redbirs on the 5 will start to disappear,
with sets of 62a's arriving from Pelham "Rumor has it ,Dispatchers were told to start resting the Birds" There was once only 2sets of 62's at the east ,now there are 6 all signed up 5.Dont be to suprised either if a siver #2 shows up during rush hour.
where did you get this official message from ??
"sets of 62a's arriving from Pelham "Rumor has it"
So entroute to the #7 they will do some time of the #5 first ?
There are some Redbirds without functioning A/C, I bet those are the first to go.
Bill "Newkirk"
Where did this information come from ??
"Where did this information come from ??"
From one of the other Subtalkers. Can't say if it's true or not. Perhaps ZMAN or Train Dude may shed a little light on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've heard nothing about it. That doesn't mean that it's not true though. I do know that I expect to store 40 redbirds by 7/1
MR Train Dude, how do you feel about the redbirds, i mean do you
like them or not?.
I like the redbirds. The Worlds Fair 33s and 36s were by far the prettiest exterior-wise. But like anything else, they've gotten to a point where they cannot be maintained to any practical extent. It's time to let them retire with dignity.
What line do you work on?
I've been known to have a relationship with the D line.
BTW: Since this may bore the rest of subtalk, I suggest you e-mail me with this type of question.
FYI, The Train Dude is one of the Hippo Ring Masters in the Concourse yard. He's also a very humble man so doesn't brag about how high the Hippo (R-68) MTBF is .... NOT.
Mr t__:^)
Absolutely! Hey Dude, what's the deal with 1369 at Concourse Yard? She's still hanging out there.....
-Stef
Thank you sir !! its like trying to pull eye teeth without novocane....like trying to get some kind of accurate information about
when the nostalaga / museum trains run !! ( oh well ) .....!!
Sometime soon the Transit Museum calendar of events brochure should come out. We will find out what the itinerary for the Nostalgia Special is, I'll send you copy.
Bill "Newkirk"
thank you sir !! please e mail me at my { asaiticcommunications@yahoo.com } asap you find out any infomation on this !!
i saw the beautiful BMT Ds ( remember ) ?? cant wait to ride one of those again like i did back in 1957-1959..!!!
The word is that they'll come out a couple of times this year. One trip may go to the Rockaways.
Mr t__:^)
I'd love to see another one to Coney Island, one way from 57/7av via Bridge and the Brighton Line, returning via the West End Express (and Bridge again).
I'm not as fond of the trip to Rockaway.
--Mark
Media Rule #1324
Know Your Source.
Ain't it funny you'll believe any source that states a problem on the R142s, but when it's a matter of common sense that the Redbirds are about to do the number 7 in the sky, you want to go into denial. Get over it. As I type, 1,425 Redbirds are in service, and will be tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, do you get my point? Your incessant whining won't keep the Redbirds from pulling into that Flushing in the sky. So you best enjoy them while you can, non fucntioning A/C and all.
I wonder what my father did back in the days of the # 7- LOW vs & HIGH vs when a FAN in the roof was the only A.C !!
geeeeezzzz!! you guys in the year 2001 are too soft, whine & bitch & complain too much about your A.C. !! Grow up babies!!
@ Now back in the good old days new yorkers were tough !! 11-3-51 for me @ my birthdate N.Y.C. etc......... ( LOL ) !!!!
I'm a whiny bitch? Okay. I'm just going to leave it at that.
no they aren't going yet. if redbirds go, while r-142's aren't quite up to snuff and are still being tweaked to meet specifications, there would be mass chaos of crowded platforms and cars on the irt. if the redbirds are going, they must be on the six line because the R-142A's are coming in like wild fire. and if the redbirds are starting to leave the 5 line, that means r-142's are coming in. there isn't enough R-62a's to go around on the lex ave. lines to go to the 5.
most of them run on the 7 ave. express.
thats what i liked about this original post ! the part that says ( "" its offical "" ) .............????..............!
---LOL--...
In today's Daily News columnist Denis Hamill takes up the "injustice" of the Grand St. station cutbacks. Of course, he ignores that there aren't a whole lot of good choices. Does anybody actually think that running shuttle buses between Grand St. and DeKalb will provide a quick commute? The Grand Coalition is also calling for 24 hour M service, which I still think is the only real option.
4 Chinatowns Focusing Fury
I see the point of the Chinese communities anger. There is absolutely no reason why the M can't run 24/7. I don't buy the MTA's excuse of a car shortage and construction. Here you have a pretty good way around the problem. They can run the M to Brooklyn 24/7, maybe even as an express peak direction. As far as car shortages go, with the W not running on many weekends there should be enough cars. Maybe the M can take some cars from the J line if it runs more often.
As far as shuttle buses between Grand and Dekalb, the traffic will make it a long, slow ride. Isn't there already a bus route from City Hall to Brooklyn called the B51? It does stop near Bowery and Canal which is only two blocks away. Perhaps service should be increased on that route (it currently doesn't run too often).
I understand that they feel upset, but the fact is there aren't a whole lot of solutions that will work. Buses will be tied up in traffic and will cause more of the same. I agree that the 24/7 M between at least DeKalb and Essex is the answer.
People will realize quickly that using the W or Q to Canal St. and transferring to the J or M to the Bowery is a faster way to get to that station than directly on the M, snaking it's way through Montague St. and up Nassau St. This alternative route should be heavily promoted by the TA.
You might be right, but many commuters would probably prefer an across the platform transfer rather than the one they would have to walk through at the Canal St. station. It still wouldn't hurt to have 24/7 service from DeKalb to connect with the Sixth Ave. lines at Essex/Delancey.
Actually, they wouldn't have to walk through the staion anymore, because the platform will be used by the Q, and all they would have to do is ride the car that leads them near the stair, and then just walk the short flight up (provided either the underpasses to the Queensbound side are open, or they've finished the reconfiguration to only the one side).
I would still like to see the through M service, because it would not only give those riders an option, but it would give my area an option to Midtown (two seat ride with easy transfer to Bway exp) besides just the L.
24/7 (incl. midnights) is a bit much to ask. Weekends, and perhaps also evenings (between rush and midnight) would be good. The West End is already a shuttle at midnights anyway. Also, Broad St. should stay closed, as its low usage would only provide an extra excuse not to run the service. However, Fulton St. should be highlighted because of it's "early" transfer to the IND (good alternative to 34th St.) It's also good for the 4th of July and other weekends when there are a lot of people going to the South St. seaport
wouldnt this be the perfect time to stsrt a 6 avenue -Broadwaybrooklyn service,useing the 6 avenue shuttle labled V
Why? The only connection from Sixth Ave. to Brooklyn will be the Rutgers Tunnel and you have the F serving it now.
There is an unused portion of the Chrystie St. connection that allows 6th Ave trains to access the Williamsburg Bridge (and the Broadway/Jamaica El, (J)(M)(Z) lines) via Grand St. That is what everyone is referring too.
The problem is the (J)(M)(Z) (and the (L) for that matter) have tight curves which mean that they can't handle 75-foot cars, such as the R46s they run on some (E) trains, all (F) trains, and most (G)(R) and presumably the (V). They could use 60 foot R32s, but I think they'd still have to deal with problems of differing platform lengths.
:-) Andrew
It's been proposed by many here. My favorite variation would take over the J/Z. Extend the V in the other direction a little and both termini are at Jamaica Center!
Unfortunately, the J/Z has short platforms, so running the V that way would require either running short trains or dangling a few cars off the end of each station on the BMT section of the run. The former isn't an option at all; the latter, I suppose, might be doable once new cars come in, but it seems like a waste to have cars running back and forth around the system that can't be used.
The T.A. ould run the V out along Broadway Brooklyn to Jamaica Center ''IF THEY WANTED TO''! It would be even better to run them to ROCKAWAY PARKWAY, but to reduce the rush hour crowing at ESSEX/DELANCY STREETS and to provide a direct connection to the 6 avenue line as to form somewhat of a loop service to and from Jamaica makes to much since so i just figure it wont be done. Whats wrong with running 8 car trains? ITS their own fault that the EASTERN DIVISION stations only carry 480 foot cars insted of 600. The tracks are there , the service is needed now with the summer route changes,they should open there eyes WYDE and see whats going on over there for a change.
The Eastern Division platforms are too short for full-length trains and current ridership certainly doesn't warrant lengthening them.
I agree that routing one of the Williamsburg Bridge services north in Manhattan instead of south would serve passengers better, and Jamaica-Jamaica loop service would be really cool, but it just doesn't look like a practical option until the TA has more cars than it knows what to do with.
Ah yes, one of the longest-standing SubTalk fantasies:
JAMAICA CENTER
to
JAMAICA CENTER
via
BRIDGE and TUNNEL
Kenny Kramer, the inspiration for Cosmo Kramer on Seinfeld, is seeking petition signatures to get the Libertarian Party mayoral nomination.
Times story
Daily News story
Maybe The "Soup Nazi" will rum against him
Fascism IS the opposite of libertarianism.
I'll vote for George Castanza.
BMTman
He's got my vote ... but ONLY if he moves Festivus to the second week of December. I've got a bone to pick ... and that pole better be from an IRT car ...
I heard he was caught barefoot in City Hall. That should be a problem.
If Morty wants to be the puppetmaster, he better not buy any Willard electronic organizers.
Dennis Hamil's column in today's Daily News is on the four Chinatowns uniting against Gov Pataki over the planned closing of the Grand Street station.
While the questions comes up "How will Main Street-Flushing passnegers be affected by the closing of Grand Street?" after reading the article, Hamil also quotes Paul J.Q. Lee -- a vocal member the Grand Coalition (Hamil's words) -- as saying, "Pataki alone has the power to rectify this abomination. But he has not showed his face in Chinatown since he ran for office. People's livelihoods depend on the subway, and Pataki says nothing, does nothing, acts as if we don't exist.
"In November, he'll see that we do exist."
Apparently, the coalition plans to vote Mr. Pataki out of office this November by writing in Andrew Cuomo's name on a blank line, or something. The fact is any of the four favorites for mayor -- Green, Vallone, Ferrer and Hevesi -- will run an adversarioal relationship with Pataki, even if the MTA provided individual limoseune service for each passenger from DeKalb to Grand. Access to Bowery from the Q or W trains at Canal will be available 24/7 via transfer there to the J, and during other hours with the W and Z.
The coalition has a bit of a point about boosting M service to 24 hours, if usage warrants it, but overall Mr. Lee comes off as trying to stir things up more to promote himself than to actually do anything about a bridge closing situation dictated by the Department of Transportation.
Gotta love yellow journalism. Pataki can't rectify the abomination without risking the collapse of the entire bridge if he were to stop the work from beginning. That in itself would be a real abomination. Don't blame Pataki for inheriting the current bridge situation. It's not his fault it was neglected for decades and the 20 year rehab has been bungled.
What will Andrew Cuomo do if elected? Nothing, because the situation will remain the same with the bridge.
When will someone with authority tell the Chinese people to shut up already and deal with a situation nobody can change? Sometimes, I miss Robert Moses ...
One other thing.....24/7 M service to the Bowery was rejected because the GO's needed for the Nassau St. reconfiguration and rehab will make this impossible. I would like to see M service restored to 9th Ave. during the midday hours, though.
GO's always disrupt service when they're in operation. That doesn't mean service needs to be cut back when they're not in operation.
The M should be run 24/7 to Brooklyn -- except, of course, when cut back by a GO.
A tongue-in-cheek proposal for Mr. Lee: all Brooklyn based TA motormen and conductors get relieved on the Brooklyn side at DeKalb Ave. or Pacific St. and the uptown guys get relieved at Grand St. Run R68 & R68A's exclusively over the bridge being operated by the supporters of Mr. Lee. All passengers who ride over the bridge are advised by the TA crews before they are relieved that the TA makes no guarantee of safe passage over the MannyB. If the structure gives way, Mr. Lee has full financial liability over any possible lawsuits by the surviving family members and the R68/68A bashers on SubTalk can rejoice in the fact that a trainset or two or three were wrecked!
No one will die in the collapse anyway.....hippos can swim.
A single unit Flushing Redbird is to take part in the Annual Folklife fest here in Washington DC on the Mall. Display will (as always) be during the last week of June into the 4th of July. NYCT employee Torin Reid and Landra Lane will be on hand to show the rest of the county how New Yorkers makes their subway as part of their everyday lives.
One of the region covered this year is New York City, with its five boros. A state as well as a country are featured. Food is alway a major part of these fest (Bialys, franks, etc).
Source: washinton Post Art Section 29 April 2001, "In New York City, A Savory Search Party"
Philip Hom
The article also says one can take the D train accross the Brooklyn Bridge. Someone did not do their homework...
It was a bright sunny day yesterday for Members Day at Branford. It was great meeting up with many of the Sub-Talk members, including Thurston, Jeff H.,Larry Redbird R33. Lou from Brooklyn, Lou S, Doug BMTman (who dropped HeyPaul and his bicycle on the side of I-95).
It was fun "piloting" a street car under Lou from Brooklyn's guidance and twice taking the controls of the R-9. I even got to accompany my favorite (R-17 #6688) as it was moved from one barn to another.
Kudos to all who arranged a grand day. Special thanks to George Boucher for a great lunch buffet.
Hart Bus f/k/a 9306 WF
Note to Jeff H. - Have you deducted the calories from the sheet cake yet ?
Alan, it was good to see you too, and the others as well - at least those of you who I saw or knew that I saw. Andee (SUBWAYSURF) was there also. I had a good time, getting a little bit of handle time on 629 and somewhat more on 4573 - all the way from Short Beach back to Sprague. Gotta remember not to stop advancing before reaching full parallel or series though :-) The cakes looked wonderful, Alan - I didn't sample any since my wife was already back at Sprague by the time they cut them, she had seen quite enough of the place. Took some photos, including of the R/T equipment coming back to the platform; we'll have to wait a few days to see how they turned out, since I was starting a fresh roll. (Should finish it next weekend at the East Penn National Trolley Meet - if not at the show, then at least on Sunday's fan trip out on the Media and Sharon Hill lines.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Saw you with a big smile on you face at the contols of the old BRT Convertable from 1906 as you went thru the yard on you way to Sprague. She's one of the few cars that can still be put in parallel. I like the kick she makes when you go thru Transition into parallel.
Mr t__:^)
Innocently omiited from the Sub-talk list : Anon-e-mouse and SubwaySurf. If there is anyone else I've omitted I apologize, it is most certainly not intentional.
Hart Bus f/k/a 9306WF
Andee came with his own fan club, i.e. his mom, aunt & several friends ... hope they all enjoyed themselves !
Mr t__:^)
Yes, Thurston, everyone had a great time, THANKS
Peace,
ANDEE
My gains in calories from the cake were offset by expenditures in
related enterprises. That was a 14-hour work day for me as the
last act of the day (putting away 1689) came at 2200.
P.S. Don't forget to send in your potential prize-winning photos!
Does anyone have any updates on the r142s? Thanks for any info.
If you scroll through previous messages from this week, you will see the answer. -Nick
Let me guess....the answer is "Yes".
A's on the 6 are running. R-142 for 2 and 5 are not at the moment. first 2 sets for the 2 and 5 should be back around mid may to early june hopefully.
I got this info from a Person by E-Mail.
The first R-143 will be delivered to 207th yard on Monday night
April 30th. Around 10:00 PM. One car will be delivered per night Monday
thru Thursday. On Friday night a 4-car set will be towed to East New York
Yard and stored on 7 track in the barn. This will continue for 2 weeks until
the first 8-car train is delivered. Training will begin on May 21st. for
eastern division TSS's and Train Operators. Sometime in June the
30 day test will commence.
And, no doubt, there will be a crack "Camera Commando" team from Subtalk waiting to click away when they show up.
Looking forward to your photos...
Indeed! I wish I could make it, but hopefully some subtalkers have a good flash on their cams to snap a few for us. -Nick
Why don't we make a trip to ride over to East New York Yard and ride the L Line for the last few times while we get that view of East New York Yard from the L's el.
I going to take photos of them when they are doing the Testing on (L) Line.
The same information was provided this Past Friday via a web site. But thanks anyway.
I wonder...
If the 143's are goping to 207th Street, would they be placed on a track visible from the IRT el?
Does the late night (local) 2 stop at Franklin Street?
If not, why not?
If so, the strip maps in the cars are incorrect.
Subject to certain exceptions, IMO the late-night
sprinting redbird does NOT halt it's hoofs
at Franklin... it only halts at it's usual
express stops... which makes for some quite
dandy railfan viewing... when was the last
time we had a railfan window down the 7th ave local??
1985??
The late night 2 does make local stops. Saturday night I had a railfan window right up to 86th Street, where I got off -- but the train ran express until 72nd and was switched onto the local tracks there for track work. Even without the 2, the 1/9 had a railfan window until the cabs were widened a few years ago. No need to go back to 1985.
The late night 2 does make local stops. Saturday night I had a railfan window from Flatbush Avenue right up to 86th Street, where I got off (okay, fine, I sat down briefly under the river) -- but the train ran express until 72nd and was switched onto the local tracks there for track work. Even without the 2, the 1/9 had a railfan window until the cabs were widened a few years ago. No need to go back to 1985.
D'aoh!... I stands corrected... thx David!
1SF9
When the 2 is running local on the Midnights, it does indeed make a stop at Franklin St. Of this I'm certain, because I do it every Monday morning.
Ever look outside your cab at the strip map?
Look, if the R142s don't stop at 34 St according to the strip map, why worry about Franklin St? If the 30 trains (three 1s and three 2s an hour for five hours) that stop there between Midnight and 5am pick up a grand total of 15 people, I would be very surprised. As an aside, i personally don't trust the strip maps to be correct - I can't tell you how many times I've been on a 2 that had a strip map for a 5 and watched people in atotal panicwhen the train neglested to stop on Lexington Ave; it wouls seem that all the 2 signs and 7th Ave express signs, as well as the CR announcements, were not enough to override the 5 strip map.
Yes, it does. Midnight hours, barring any GOs, both the '1' and '2' make all local stops between Franklin and 86th Streets. The strip maps on the Redbirds that populate the '2' were never updated to reflect this change.
The strip map in the car I rode Saturday night indeed had an inset showing local service -- only it jumped from Chambers to Canal.
If, say, 50 R62s were going to be moved to the 7, could the TA hook up more than 10 cars at a time to speed things up? In other words, in doing large non-revenue movments, can really long trains be made to make the movment faster?
In theory, that should work, so long as one controller can run > 10 cars. (If I am wrong someone please correct me).
The only practical limitation that I can seeoccuring is if the train is required to transition over two consecutive switches which are closer than 11 car lengths apart. Is that a relevant issue on the NYC system?
I would guess there might be some problems with overriding block lengths ... trippers coming up in the middle of the consist perhaps. Trainline air pressure might be another issue. I'm sure if a "Supertrain" consist could be done (irrespective of possible work rule questions by TWU) they would do it more often. I could see a number of possibilities that would keep EMU's from behaving like mile-long freights, but that's me - the eternal pessimist. :)
Thanks - the tripper problem is quite logical obvious now that you mention it. Thanks for teaching.
I'm sure there are other issues as well but that one would be a showstopper unless they were "corked" manually - but I could see a lot of people getting a serious dose of the shakes and as a former motor, I know I wouldn't want to try to stop it once I got it rolling. :)
I am not a signal expert but I don't think that a tripper would come up under the train regardless of length. As long as the block is occupied, the triparm should be retained.
I think that more of a problem is that we are dealing with 37.5 Volt control circuits. The average voltage drop is .5 volts per car. Since the relays are designed to operate at a low of 28 volts, reliability would begin to suffer beyond 12 cars. I've seen 14 car main shop drags in the past but that's about as far as we'd go.
Train Dude is correct. The trip should retain once the train is on the circuit and so this is not the real problem. The low voltage control circuits would be more likely to cause problems if the train is over twelve cars in length. However, I have worked "transfers" previously and the maximum length train is usually what is permissible over the road in passenger service. Therefore, a transfer over the IRT main line is almost always ten cars maximum, while a transfer of Flushing line equipment can be up to eleven cars, unless it is going over the IRT main line in which case it will be limited to ten. Operationally this frees up signal blocks and ensures that the train will fit spur tracks etc. But twelve cars could be operated if needed
Transfers from the Flushing line to anywhere else (IRT Mainline or CI Shops) is a maximum of 12 cars - 10 cars being moved plus a single on each end. The singles MUST be present at each end of the move with their diversions valves set to B Div so that they will work correctly with the BMT/IND signal system, where the trips are on the off-side of the train.
How come after unification the trips weren't standardized? All left or all right?
Beside size, what other significant differences are there betwixed the A aand B divs?
avid
Too much money? I really don't know.
Size of car
Length of train
Frequency of service
Location of tripping devices
Isn't The NYCTA in the process of standardizing the signals on both divisions? I've thought i've seen something like that in a previous post.
I think I saw new signals, very bright , south of Aqueduct/No. Conduit ave heading south to the Rockaways.
avid
They are in the process of removing the old IRT signals and replacing them with the signals used everywhere else in the system. the trip arms, however, will stay where they are, since to move them would require surgery on every IRT car.
Having worked the IRT as long as 30 years ago off and on I'd say the began standardizing signals with new installations at least as far back as 1970...all new signals were IND type [as for the BMT they were the basis for the IND ones with the only change I can think of being the timers].
I'd run up the 2 line for example and go from IRT signalling into IND type and back. So needless to say all new installations since then would phase out the IRT type. But they are alive and well on parts of the BNSF, Montana Rail Link, Chicago el and elsewhere.
The only other difference in cars between divisions I can think of besides the size and trippers is that the 3rd rail shoes used to be different; I'd expect that has been standardized too as all cars do run everywhere if not in passenger service. For those who remember the R27/30 they were as I see it identical to an R26-33 except for size and the trippers.
The R-10s had the R-12s and R-14s as cousins, and the R-16s were first cousins to the R-17s. If you wanted to stretch it, the R-32s and R-38s were counterparts to the WF R-36s in terms of picture windows and door window alignment.
Yeah, you're right there ... what had me scratching parts of my anatomy that I wasn't aware I still had was the concept of a HUNDRED cars perhaps being moved at once with respect to occupying possibly four blocks at a time, wasn't sure how the trippers would handle so many contiguously occupied blocks. If it does work as you suggest, I could see a VERY serious safety problem actually in some minds.
Picturing how the IRT used to operate nearly a century ago, trains would often "trick the block" by coming up right behind the train ahead to try to cheat the "adjacent block" safety since normally a trip will rise after the train ahead leaves the existing block. Since this mode of operation resulted in rear-enders, I assumed that adjacent block occupation had been changed over time so that as soon as the first train left a block, the trip would be raised as it hit the block ahead if there were still wheels in the existing block. In other words, I thought that such an operation would not be permitted as it would indicate two trains in the same block as an unsafe configuration. But I thought the signals were limited to a specific block size to prevent a train behind from rolling up without at least a key-by or call-on resulting from encountering a raised arm to keep them separated. Just so you see what my thought process was ...
As to the drop per car, yeah, no surprise there. In "long trains" all you really are concerned about is that air gets all the way back to Uncle Fred, who is on life support. :)
The most effient ways to have the changeover is, as you take the R-36's out of service, you will replace them with the R-62A's.You will take the most rusted out R-36's, and replace them with R-62A's take into consideration, the R-62A's will travel to the Concourse Yard, go out to Coney Island, come up the N line and hit Flushing that way.it takes a lot of time.I would remove all the 2 and 5 line Redbirds first because its easier and quicker have the Redbirds crossover at 138th Street, send them up to Concourse Yard.You have to do this over time anyway.You get rid of the most lousy R-36WF's replace those first and do the replacements gradually over time.Personally I would put the R-142's on the Dyre Avenue line those redbirds are horrible!!!! after that put the next batch on the R-142's on the 2 line once all the R-142's are running with no problems, then I'll replace the R-36WF trains with R-62A's. You gotta get all the new trains up and running before you start switching the R-36's and R-62A's.
Please bare with me. On the #7 line, which type are the singles? Are they R/33 or R/36s? Could the components that allow them to be singles (break system & controllers) be swapped into R/38,40, and 42s?
I beleive in my heart of hearts, a stopgap solution to a car shortage on Queens BLVD is the 660ft consist or a 645ft consist.
NOW WHAT IS THAT WACKO TALKING ABOUT?
On an eight car consist of R/44s R/46s and R/68s, remove one car of 75ft length and add a modified married pair of 60 footers. Total length = 645ft.
I know they have rust problems. This A.M. had a slant Q from W$th to 47th . As I went up the stairs I was horrifid at the condition of the seem were the roof met the walls. Can't these cars get stainless rooves?
With the economy as it is or leaning, A GOH to make some 60fts compatible with 75fts would seem a patriotic move keeping the tax dollars home on rehab work while giving the riders a little breathing space. A few singized R/38s to be mated with R/32s to allow them to go to 660 ft.
The shops must have the talent to make this a reality, Or do private concerns need to be consulted to handle it.
avid
Perhaps I'm missing your point but if there are 2,900 B division cars, and you take an 8 car train and make it a 9 car train, don't you still have 2,900 cars albiet with less trains. More simply, if there are 1655 75' cars (124,125 feet long) and 1190 60' cars (71,400 feet long), that's 195,525 feet long regardless of what combination you couple the cars. Talent of the maintenance shops is definitely not the issue. (By the way, the plural of ROOF is ROOFS whether they are corroded, or leaking or okay)
What are the modifications on SIRT R44s and trackage to meet FRA regulations? For one, I know they have "watch the gap" stickers on doors, and gratings over the some of the undercarriage sections, but what else?
-Dan
The reason why we have gaps at some of thier stations ( preferrably curved stations ) is that freight rolling equipment can barrel in through the station rather than at restricted speeds.
Please stay at any one SIR station for an entire year, and let me know when you see a freight train.
SIR is currently exempt from FRA regs, as the road is embargoed (no traffic can enter or leave the system).
When they WERE under FRA regs, the cars had grabirons at every door, no trip equipment (still not there) dimable headlights, and blue cards.
The 'Watch the Gap' stickers are a liability thing, and are not required for anything.
-Hank
I don't have to stay at any station for any period of time cause i alrrady know that freight service has stopped in si for about 12 years now . I was referring towards there current freight rolling equipment such as their ( various flat cars, hoppers, gondolas and my favorite their hack- caboose ) and dont forget about there huge alco engines it would really blow if they had to pass each station at restricting speeds.
The main line hasn't seen service since 1984, and service to Port Ivory ended in either 1991 or 1993. I can't for the life of me remember.
-Hank
I have heard they will be on the L line?? Can someone tell me more about these new trains? We have heard lots about the 142. What pre delivery info can you tell me and the rest of the subtalkers??
Check previous postings with R143 in the title.
I DID but i really didnt see as much as i did on the other trains. The website did give some info and 3 pictures but thats not a lot.
There's a feature article on the Boston subway system in today's Boston Globe magazine section. In fact, it's the cover story. It's one of those soft pieces that talks about workers at night, vendors helping the homeless, etc. I'd love to post a link so out-of-towners can read it, but apparently the Boston Globe has other ideas.
I Have that artical.
Not judging one way or the other on the seriousness of the Grand Street issue or the TA's solutions or lack thereof:
If a 24/7 M train would be considered a satisfactory solution from the user's point of view, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for the M and J to swap terminals "for the duration"?
Have M run only to Chambers Street during its current normal service hours. Have the J extend to 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway 24/7?
Sounds OK to me, but the thought of changing the J and M would probably be considered even more confusing by the people protesting. They'd have two new letters to deal with on the West End line -- J and W instead of B and M -- which they would consider too much to deal with (remember, walking up the stair from the Q/W platform at Canal to the J/M/Z apparently is considered too much to deal with).
Many of the affected passengers are elderly or families with young children. In the transfer at Canal, the stairs are narrow and the platforms and stairs will probably be crowded. And, I believe that the Bowery station has escalators. For many, the convenience of a one seat ride may be worth the extra minutes it takes the M to go through the Montague Street tunnel and stop at Broad, Fulton, and Chambers.
The TA doesn't want to expand the hours of the M train, because it does not think people will use it. If more people do use during rush hours, they will have to reconsider extending the hours. The only limitation is the Williamsburgh Bridge G.O.
You're also forgetting that the Nassau St. track reconfiguration will force the entire line to be shut down for extended periods of time on weekends and nights. Perhaps this project should be delayed until after the Manny B is completely open.
Actually, West End passengers going upstairs from Canal on the Q/W to the M/J/Z will have less of an uphill climb than they do getting up to the elevated stations south of Ninth Ave on the M/W every morning. But you are right about the narrow stairs, and the MTA should at least rehab the stairway from the uptown platform on the Q/W at Canal to the Bowery-bound platform on the Center Street line, to eliminate that long walk around at the south end of the M/J/Z station.
Brooklyn-bound, the transfer will be a lot easier and is already in place and rehabbed. The main problem will be getting everyone aclimated to the configuration so they'll know which stairways they have to use.
Any changes to the J/M/Z lines will be in dreams. they arelow priority to them and they dont give a damn about them. Their top concern is making the riders of the QUEENS BLVD lines happy. TO hell wth CHINATOWN,let them walk and eat pork buns while their doing it,as far as they'er concerned. dont look for it, its a waste of time.
Sad but true.
David Cole brought up an interesting point in his post regarding the PATH extension to EWR. He decries the use of the diesel-powered bilevel trains in place of full electrification.
Now, my personal bias is that I would prefer that as much of LIRR territory as practicable be electrified and double-tracked (and that there be more tunnel capacity under the East River to help remove bottlenecks). So I agree with him (to a point- I think the bilevel cars are great to sit in).
Does anyone know what the cost is per mile of LIRR third-rail installation? I am not including any other activity with this, such as replacement of ties etc. Also, is there significant NIMBY activity when a third rail is added to an existing line, or do NIMBYs like the prospect of fewer or no diesels running on a branch as a result of electrification?
NIMBY's would throw a fit. I hear there was a plan to electrify the Oyster Bay line years ago but NIMBY's fought and stopped it.
There have been numerous propasals to do things with the Oyster Bay line. That stupid Colation to Save hempstead harbor, now that the incinerator is long gone, basically acts as the local block to ANY change in the area. Sea Cliff basically oposses anything...
And, OB line service sucks. It always sucked. I guess it's hard to break a 120 year old pattern...
Plus it's so much hotter in this area than the middle and southern parts of the county. Right now 65 here in Sea Cliff, Mineola 57F and Bellmore 55F.
With no electrification there's just no quick escape from the heat. OB line service is infrequent, especially at night there's like over two hour headways. Better to travel to Flushing and get the last N21 at 9:50pm than deal with the OB line.
The NIMBY's basically only care about themselves and want to make life (with or without a car) as difficult as it can be in this area for everyone else.
I can't really think of anything good in Sea Cliff and Glen Cove. It's the hottest part of Nassau county. There's not enough supermarkets and laundromats. LIRR service is terrible. No wonder why it's (esp Glen Cove) one of the lesser desirable areas of the county.
The LIRR pulled off electrifying Ronkonkoma, with or without NIMBY's.
When there is enough will to do it, it can be done. The LIRR was never terribly interested in the OB branch, so it let NIMBY's win. It is hard to say what electrification costs as it is done to seldom, and LIRR managment lies like a rug.
After the Ronkonkoma job, the LIRR became psychologically opposed to doing Port Jeff, wanting to act like a defense contractor to get unique, untried, incompatible equipment for remaining diesel service. To that end, it estimated electrification costs to P.J. to be far more than Ronkonkoma even though the distance is less, the high level platforms, CTC, passing sidings, train yard, parking lots were already there, and there was capital budget to do it at one time as far as Smithtown. They didn't need much more to finish it, and the HMF (shop) was built to handle a larger MU fleet than they have today in anticipation of that electrification. So they were full of crap, AND never calculated the cost of NOT doing it, i.e. costs to accommodate inflated ridership on the Ronkonkoma line, clearance work in in the East River tubes and Penn Station to handle bi-levels, elevated track and bridge maintenance on all diesel branches to accomodate heavier engines rather than standard ones, necessity to double-head any consist that is dual-mode, or is over 6 cars.
The LIRR pulled off electrifying Ronkonkoma, with or without NIMBY's.
And it was a disastrous failure. For probably the first time in my life, I wish the NIMBY's had won.
Why was it a failure?
Why was it [Ronkonkoma electrification] a failure?
Because LIRR commuters are too lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses five feet across the platform at Jamaica to change trains, they've jammed themselves onto Ronkonkoma trains while leaving the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines operating well under capacity.
I still wouldn't call it a failure. Service to Central Suffolk is greatly improved from what it had been in the 70's.
I noticed the bold on "suit-covered anuses". Have you applied for a patent yet?
CG
I noticed the bold on "suit-covered anuses". Have you applied for a patent yet?
Hmmmm, I'm no expert on intellectual-property law, but I'd have to say offhand that a patent wouldn't be appropriate. A trademark or possibly a copyright would be more likely.
I wouldn't even bother trying to trademark/copyright my other famous expression, "Upper West Side limousine liberal." That, of course, has been around for years.
So, in order words, Ronkonkoma was a smashing success - to the point where the trains are now crammed. The answer to that, of course, is to electrify more of the Port Jeff - but I have read the recent posts pointing to some of the issues complicating that, so all I can say is, maybe in future some of that will happen...
So, in order words, Ronkonkoma was a smashing success - to the point where the trains are now crammed. The answer to that, of course, is to electrify more of the Port Jeff - but I have read the recent posts pointing to some of the issues complicating that, so all I can say is, maybe in future some of that will happen...
There's another possibility. Require persons buying monthly tickets from Suffolk County stations to produce identification. People who live closer to the Montauk or Port Jefferson lines would be charged substantial premiums if they want to buy Ronkonkoma-line tickets. Administratively this wouldn't necessarily be easy to implement, but I'm sure something could be worked out. Bottom line: if you live in, say, Stony Brook or Sayville, and are too lazy to change at Jamaaica, you can still ride from Ronkonkoma. But you'll have to pay, and pay a lot.
That is an interesting idea. You could also restrict "Park and Ride" lots to people who live in the vicinity and have permits, or charge other people a lot of money to use them.
The argument that opponents to these ideas will use is that anything which encourages a return to driving should not be pursued.
re charging extra for Ronkonkoma tickets for people living closer to the Pt. Jefferson or Montauk lines
The argument that opponents to these ideas will use is that anything which encourages a return to driving should not be pursued.
Charging a Ronkonkoma premium should reduce driving. People living closer to the Port Jefferson or Montauk lines won't have to drive so far when they use their local lines as opposed to Ronkonkoma.
"Charging a Ronkonkoma premium should reduce driving. People living closer to the Port Jefferson or Montauk lines won't
have to drive so far when they use their local lines as opposed to Ronkonkoma. "
I'm sorry. I meant that someone might argue that you could push people into driving into the city instead if you piss them off with a premium charge.
That, of course, would depend on how much of hassle each patron thinks driving is...
The Chiacgo REALLY needs is to electrify the BN line to Aroura and the whole Chacago Cough/Gag station complex. That whole place is one big ticking respretory disease time bomb.
I don't remember ever mentioning electrification vs. diesel bilevels in any of my PATH/Newark postings, but as a general rule I'm strongly in favor of electricfication using overhead catenary and bilevel EMU's. I think the Metra Electric (formerly IC) trains here in Chicago are a pretty good example to follow, although there's no way those trains would ever fit anywhere near Penn Station. Maybe an electric version of the MBTA's bilevels would fit, though.
I've never ridden LIRR and I've only ridden Metro-North once so I don't know their whole historical reasons for using third rail rower, but it seems like overhead catenary would make much more sense for commuter rail use.
-- David
Chicago, IL
and why would Metra bilevels not fit into Penn? After all the MP54's for example were generally similar to the IC Pullman's. I suspect they would fit mechanically. My only doubt is whether the higher voltage catenary at Penn would pose a problem. Any EE's here?
I was thinking more in terms of vertical clearance. Metra's bilevels are very tall cars, and I've never seen anything that tall in Penn Station. Probably the same reason Amtrak's Superliners don't go to New York. Of course, I don't have any hard numbers to toss at you, so I could be wrong.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You've got it right. Superliners generally don't operate east of Chicago. Amtrak does have new "viewliner" equipment that does fit Penn, and this is what is used for the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago.
Superliners operate everyday to DC on the Capitol Ltd. But they do not fit thru the Baltimore tunnels on the NEC, but have run to Track 1 at 30th Street Philly, which has a low level platform and the catenary was de-energized for the stunt.
MBTA and MARC bi-levels will not fit thru the East or Hudson River tunnels, the 63rd Street tunnel's low level, nor GCT. The LIRR bi-levels won't even fit thru the Hudson River tunnels. If they were to take the diverging route on the pair of crossovers just east of the 12 Avenue portals, the top end of the car would strike the portal itself.
Thanks for providing these details.
Ah, but remember when South Shore was way short of cars and the RTA sent over a train of Bi-levels(exCNW I suspect) which then operated on the IC, and CSS&SB. ATK Superliners are indeed taller than the older ATSF El Cap cars and probably also the CNW(and clone) bi-levels. BTW As Superliners are switched in the Wash DC facilities, does anyone believe they are restricted to non electrified tracks? I believe that to be unlikely given the track/yard layout. Superliners are used on the Capitol Ltd and the Cardinal. The latter uses the tunnel under Capitol Hill to access Union Station, and my recollection is that those tracks have catenary from the portal at Union Station 'north'. Perhaps one of our DC area posters could verify a Superliner stanfing under wires?
Ah, but remember when South Shore was way short of cars and the RTA sent over a train of Bi-levels(exCNW I suspect) which then operated on the IC, and CSS&SB.
The Metra bilevels may very well be able to operate on the South Shore Line, but we're talking about LIRR here. I was under the impression that Penn Station itself and/or the tubes under the rivers were too tight to allow for anything as tall as Metra's bilevels.
-- David
Chicago, IL
okay, the hard core questions are the clearance specs. feet/inches above railhead to lowest catenary height. So I was assuming that when PRR engineered their installation they set dimensions all along the line. They were 50/50 owners of Union Station in DC. So the question remains what are the hard numbers for the trackage between say Newark and Sunnyside. Someone must have this data. Jersey Mike?
BTW althugh I can't instantly quote the issue/date but I remember a photograph of a superliner car under wire on the Harrisburg Line. All that said the dimensions will tell the story.
(And as an aside--I am more interested in actual dimensions or photos--Espee used to claim Donner Pass couldn't accomodate "real" that is BUDD dome cars--a convenient way to shaft ATK in the 70's. BUT there are published pictures of a detoured CZ n the 50's on Donner.)
the question remains what are the hard numbers for the trackage between say Newark and Sunnyside. Someone must have this data. Jersey Mike?
A PRR electrics were 15 feet tall with the pans locked down and in normal operation you can see the pans of an electric get pretty low so I'd say that the height clearance on the NEC is maybe about 16 feet, maybe 15'6"
As Superliners are switched in the Wash DC facilities, does anyone believe they are restricted to non electrified tracks? I believe that to be unlikely given the track/yard layout.
No, they're not restricted to tracks with no catenary. At least as far as the shops, the catenary has been raised to accomodate them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would not third rail have some advantage in conditions of high wind (eg catenary can be blown down)?
Of course, snowdrifts can bury a third rail while not necessarily obstructing a catenary...or would it?
Each format seems to have its own plusses and minuses in terms of weather. However, I was always under the impression that catenary is much better for the higher speeds that are more common on commuter trains vs. subways, and catenary is also much safer for grade crossings or anywhere else people are likely to end up on the ROW.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, I would agree with a lot of that. The LIRR runs to a max of 90 mph on its third-rail track (could it do 100?). And I remember a car being hit by a train and blown clean off its tires. It looked like it got shoved into the third rail. Without the insulating tires this car was now connected to ground and a million amperes at 750 volts DC. I guess that specific hazard wouldn't happen with an overhead catenary (in most cases, though, the car's occupants would be dead from the impact anyway).
I wonder which NIMBYs hate more: overhead catenary with poles, or third rail? The former "ruins the view" (give me a break) while the latter does require an effort to secure the ROW against trespassers.
"The LIRR runs to a max of 90 mph on its third-rail track (could it do 100?)."
One minor point - MAS in electrified territory on the LIRR is 80 MPH.
I don't know about 1,000,000 amps but 250,000 - 300,000 might be a little closer to the actual. In any event, it's enough to cook anything in its path. Many areas of the Ronkonkoma branch ROW are not protected although a third rail is present. I suppose that catanary would be perferred out here on long island because of where the LIRR runs under electrification. For example, most of the Babylon branch is paralleled by LIPA high tension lines and the Ronkonkoma branch hardly runs through the scenic parts of Long Island. I just think that it would be like any other issue. Let the public decide and you'll have a protest against one side or another - the American way.
I don't know about 1,000,000 amps but 250,000 - 300,000 might be a little closer to the actual. In any event, it's enough to cook anything in its path. Many areas of the Ronkonkoma branch ROW are not protected although a third rail is present.
Yet third rail electrocution incidents seem very rare. I can't recall hearing of one in the three and a half years I've been riding the LIRR. People get hit by trains, that's not at all uncommon, but not electrocuted as far as I know.
the Ronkonkoma branch hardly runs through the scenic parts of Long Island.
Unless you like watching suburban slums, junk yards, sand-and-gravel operations, and cemeteries.
Hey, don't knock it! n my way to Chicago in 1988 aboard the Broadway Lmited, I must have passed every steel mill in Indiana...:0)
There was one incident about a year ago where a 16 YO was dragging his urban transport vehicle (Bike) across the tracks west of Carlton Avenue in CI when he had a problem with the 3rd rail. The 3rd rail had the final word.
I've never ridden LIRR and I've only ridden Metro-North once so I don't know their whole historical reasons for using third rail rower, but it seems like overhead catenary would make much more sense for commuter rail use.
You need to remember when 3rd rail systems were built. In the early 1900's railroads had money but usually not enough to afford an overhead system, line improvements and the rolling stock to go with everything. 3rd rail is cheap to install, simple to maintain, easy to install and lends itself to simple, DC locomotives that were available in the early years of electrifacation.
Overhead catenary systems will lend themselves to higher speeds and greater electrical load capacity (more voltage), but third rail is perfectly acceptable for a suburban MU system. 3rd rail can be hazerdous, but from what I've seen you reammy have to work hard to get your self electrocuted by a 3rd rail. The instalation of 3/4 covers and or plastic sheathed rail would make accidental electrocution almost impossible. I would support the wide spread instalation 3rd rail everywhere to weed out stupid people who can't read warning signs or simple electrodynamics.
[You need to remember when 3rd rail systems were built. In the early 1900's railroads had money but usually not enough to afford an overhead system, line improvements and the rolling stock to go with everything. ]
My guess would be that during the early years of direct current high voltages (required for relatively thin conductor) weren't practical. IMHO currently caternary should be a preferred option as technical issues have long being remedied.
Arti
I think you will find that 25kv catenary systems are a lot cheaper. No heavy substations and rectifiers, no heavy cable and switches etc.
Simon
Swindon UK
The New Haven line on MNRR has catenary (or something like it.) Every so often you see sparks eminating from it, and I wonder if there isn't some danger from that.
:-) Andrew
About as dangerous as those coming off the third rail, I guess.
it is a normal thing because it is acting like a overhead third rail.
Or the wire has a short in it.
It's interesting that Metra Electric is mentioned in the context of dual-mode locomotives, because if present NICTD (nee South Shore for non-Chicagoans) plans come to pass, there will be dual-mode trains operating on the Metra Electric.
Specifically, NICTD plans extensions to Valparaiso and Lowell. Up to the dividing point, in Munster, the extensions will be electrified to the same standard as the existing NICTD line. South of that point, on the two branches, the NICTD trains will have to operate with diesel power. The MIS is on the NICTD website at:
http://www.nictd.com/corporate/brochure.pdf
I'm looking for any Subtalkers who have had first-hand experience with implimentation of or working in a TQM environment. Please E-Mail me.
I did some TQM at Hughes Aircraft Co. years ago (a la Deming and Ishikawa) and got another dose of it in my MBA program. Does that count?
I got stuck on the recieving end of UTC's most recent quality program - ACE (Achiveing Competitive Excellence, or, Adios Connecticuit Employees). From the brief 3 months I was there, the most I saw comming out of it was a lot of impressive looking (on the surface) charts and graphs, and a lot of new management jobs. It also gave management yet another excuse to not listen to the workers on the floor (who often had ideas that weren't perfect, but often workeable), and it also added yet another layer of paperwork and overhead (to an already complicated system).
But what struck me most of all was the data gathering. We collected LOTS of data (one of my weekly tasks was a walk around the plant fectching often blank weekly area reviews), made numerous bar and pie charts, and even talked about it. The net effect, however, was zero , because we often didn't chart or collect data well, or didn't do anything with what data we collected.
Not to mention, employee resistance, due in part to numerous attempts at the same thing before (Q+, Zero Defects, Poopc...). When I left last september, it didn't seem to be going anywhere, even though (or because?) it was effectively being forced on everyone.
I'm not sure why this was a seeming failure. Bad implementation? Poor management?
Anyway, at numerous meeting, the workers on the floor often complained that management was doing study after study, but not changing or implementing anything new.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this post. I guess my experience serves as a warning, though. Make sure whatever is implemented has support from top to bottom (from what I heard, Pratt management waivered initially, and by the time I was there, the employees thought it was at best a joke, at worst a method to get rid of them), and don't use it as an excuse to can employees (part of the "quality" process was seeing how many people could be cut out of a particular process we were studying). But most of all, don't collect data and sit on it. That does nothing, an alienates workers, making any future attempts difficult.
Not really TQM stuff, but quality related...
Implementing TQM can be difficult. It takes a major commitment on the part of both management and workers. See my response to Selkirk's post for examples.
Well, if TD wants a negative review of Totalled quality management, that was the specific psychobabble that made up my mind for me that it was time to give up my gig at the Public Service Commission and pipe off the good ship Paturkey Farm ... if the TA is thinking about it, can I have front row seats for the trainwreck?
Again, my perception is highly negative towards TQM, it's one of those "touchy-feely" things that leaves everybody ruined in the end emotionally. I wish I could remember the name of the educrat that came up with the concept - he brought it to Japan in the 1960's and 70's and it culminated in everything you saw in the movie "Gung Ho" which depicted a Japanese car maker opening up a shop here in the US.
The concept of TQM is that EVERYONE is responsible for the outcome and is supposed to work together. Wigs and deputy junior wiglets and secretaries, staff and shop stewards all get together in a conference room at a table and "discuss" methods of solving problems together as a (gack) "team" ... where everybody's on the "same level" (yet we still have drones and managers in title) and in the end, it promises to "open the lines of communication so problems are resolved by the team" ... uh. Yeah.
What really happens (at least for several state agencies where morale took a dump after a while and everybody was shouting at and blaming each other for *everything* and generally stabbing each other in the back) is the wigs retain their authority, the shop steward argue and the workers end up being written up for being less productive because all they do is attend meetings, seminars and mass-training ... the managers still come away from it all and do what they believe and often use the TQM sessions to explain away the ideas proposed by the underlings ...
Lemme put it this way - it didn't work in Japan, it didn't work here and most of industry has already moved past the TQM concept as nothing more than a timewaster that generally ends up reinforcing the negatives that had already built up in the workplace prior. After TQM goes away, folks that used to work with each other won't anymore and in my own experience, it increased employee turnover greatly.
I certainly wasn't impressed with it ... I'm surprised though in all seriousness that anyone's thinking of rolling it out. It was roundly discredited over ten years ago ...
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. But your experience appears to be quite narrow, and unfortunately a lot of people claim to practice TQM without having a clue as to what it is. That is what, perhaps, you saw. It is not a discredited technique; in fact Deming's methods were partly responsible for turning Japanese industry around in the 1950's.
TQM is, at its core, not "touchy-feely" at all. It is about communication, yes, but mostly it's about the use of statistics to feed back information about how well a job is being done. It is a formal structure for measuring and said feedback. Performed correctly, it can achieve good results. Performed incorrectly, it is a waste of time.
Specific examples of successful TQM:
1) General Electric and Motorola's "Six Sigma process." GE's aircraft engines and Allied Signal's jet turbine generators (Larry Bossidy was a "six sigma graduate) achieve performance ratings and MTBF much higher than competing products because of it. Motorola applied that process to the manufacturing of analog cellphones.
2) The difference between a Japanese car of 1960 and a Japanese car of 1990 is primarily due to TQM. Saturn's first cars were built with the benefit of TQM.
3) Hughes Aircraft Co. applied the process to themanufacture of satellites. The result was that the Hughes series 376 and 393 (spin stabilized spacecraft such as Intelsat and GOES) lasted years longer in space than their design life
3) The NYPD's Compstat Program is essentially a TQM program - and it is NOT touchy-feely at all.
4) Duquene Power Co. used TQM to improve performance at its nuclear generating stations so that one of its plants achieved essentially 100% capacity and availability over a 2 year period.
5) "Evidence-based medicine" is a nascent attempt to allow doctors to use it to evaluate patient treatment.
The process is ongoing. If you take your eye off the ball you start seeing defects and lower performance - as what happened to later Saturn cars, for example.
I hope this was helpful.
Could be ... understand though WHERE I was TQM'd ... the STATE OF NEW YORK ... once it's heated over politicial sausage, any day can turn into "anything can happen day" and alas, MTA is also part of the same sausage works, therefore VERY likely to have the exact same outcome.
A good shop doesn't require formal TQM, communications up and down the chain and the ability to "stop the line" if something isn't right should be built into the company from the start. Not something to be banged into the metal later ... but that's just me. Where I am now is a perfect example of quality by design and the ability of anyone to improve the process because they're listened to on the spot, not delegated off to a committee ... otherwise though, I would agree. I just can't see it happening in a political subdivision like the MTA.
I have seen publicity pictures of rebuilt R42's, but they have the original doors with deep windows. Are the captions to the pictures correct ? Are these the 50 cars that Coney Island did (as opposed to MK) ? Do they have inferior MDBF's. ?